# Sikh Missionary "GHAGHA" Excommunicated !



## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 22, 2006)

*S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*


*Gurfateh*
*Panthic Weekly: BREAKING: AKAL TAKHT SUMMONS GHAGGA AND PARTY, Boycott In Effect*

*BREAKING:  AKAL TAKHT SUMMONS GHAGGA AND PARTY, Boycott In Effect *​*Saturday 21st of October 2006 *
*PW News Bureau *​

Amritsar Sahib (KP) - Panthic Weekly has received information that Sri Akal Takht Sahib has summoned anti-Panthic writer Inder S. Ghagga and his associates for their mis-parchar against the Sikh Nation. 

The sandesh signed by Jathedar Joginder Singh Vedanti, has ordered a boycott of Inder S Ghagga, Gurcharan S Jeeonwala, Manjit S Sihota, Karamjit S Gill,  Amandeep S Kang, Gurmit Sinh, Parminder S Parmar, and Jasbir S Mangat, and banned them from utilizing any Panthic stage or platform.

Furthermore, they have been asked Ghagga to stop his anti-Sikh propaganda, appear before Sri Akal Takht Sahib and ask for public forgiveness. Until then, the Sikh Sangat is instructed to continue the ban against these individuals.

_TRanslation and copy of Sandesh from Akal Takht Sahib calling for a boycott against Ghagga and his associates:
_


[SIZE=+0]*SRI AKAL TAKHT SAHIB


# 306/3410                                Date: 10/21/06

SANDESH*

[/SIZE]​[SIZE=+0]*Akal Takht Sahib has been notified by the Ontario Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee Toronto, Sri Guru Singh Sabha Malton Mississauga, Sikh Spiritual Center Toronto, Gurdwara Jot Parkash Sahib Toronto, Ontario Gurdwara Sikh Council, and other affiliated Gurdwara Sahibs and Sikh Sangat from Toronto, Canada, that Prof. Inder Singh Ghaggha, author of “Sada BeRa Eao Garkeya”, who is also a staunch supporter of Gurbaksh Sinh Kala Afghana’s anti-Gurmat views, has been trying to cause confusion within the local Sangat with joint efforts of Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala, Manjit Singh (Sahota), Karamjeet Singh (Gill), Amandeep Singh (Kang) Gurmeet Singh, Parminder Singh Parmar and Jasbir Singh.*

[/SIZE]
*Looking at the rising tensions and concerns within the local Sangat, it is being mandated by Akal Takht Sahib that until Prof. Inder Singh Ghaggha does not appear before Akal Takht Sahib, and seeks an apology to assure that his anti-Gurmat writings (“Sada BeRa Eao Garkeya” and others) will be discontinued for further publication and circulation, him and his supporters, namely: Gurcharan Singh Jeonvala, Manjit Singh (Sahota), Karamjeet Singh (Gill), Amandeep Singh (Kang) Gurmeet Singh, Parminder Singh (Parmar) and Jasbir Singh (Mangat) and other supporters should not be allowed to speak from any Gurdwara Sahib or Panthic stage.*
*Sikh Sangat is also being advised to not offer any kind of support to any seminars or conferences organized by the persons who have been put into question. Along with that, Sikh Sangat should keep up their efforts to raise awareness of anti-Panthic activities of these individuals.*
*(Signed)
Joginder Singh*
*Jathedar (Akal Takht Sahib)*


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## Archived_Member16 (Oct 22, 2006)

*Sikh missionary excommunicated*
*for blasphemous writings *​ 
*Varinder Walia*
Tribune News Service​*Amritsar, October 22*

Taking strong and suo-moto exception to the alleged blasphemous writings and statements by Prof Inder Singh Ghagha, an alumnus of Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, Akal Takht today directed the Sikh sangat to stop him forthwith from carrying out his religious activities all over the world. 

In a directive issued on the letter head of Akal Takht, the Jathedar also took similar action against Prof Ghagha's associates, including Mr Gurcharan Singh Jeeonwala, Mr Manjit Singh Sahota, Mr Karamjit Singh Gill, Mr Amandeep Singh Kang, Mr Gurmit Singh , Mr Parminder Singh Parmar, Mr Jasbir Singh Mangat and their associates. 

The development is considered unprecedented since Prof Ghagga and his associates were not given an opportunity to clarify their respective positions. 
Finding the remarks too obnoxious, the Akal Takhat this time directed the Sikhs not to allow Prof Ghagha and his associates to speak from any gurdwara or panthak stage. 

Earlier, one Bhag Singh of Ambala was also excommunicated on the same grounds for writing against 'benati choupai' and 'ardas'. However, he had presented himself before the Akal Takht and sought forgiveness. Later, Mr Gurbax Singh Kala Afghana was excommunicated from the Sikh panth for the same reasons. 

Of late, many petitions had been pouring in against Prof Ghagha, He and his group had been indulging in blasphemous writings against the Sikh ideology and 'gurbani', they allege. 

Interestingly, Ghagha claims himself to be associated with missionary colleges but the Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, declared that he was not associated with the institute. The same statement had come from Gurmat Gian Missionary College where Ghagha was teaching. Mr Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba, editor of the community journal Sant Sipahi, criticsed these statements saying that merely saying that he was not associated with them had no meaning unless these institutions condemned the writings of Ghagha and Kala Afghana. 

Prof Ghagha who had been an ardent supporter of cop-turned- Sikh scholar Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana, is presently in Canada. His speeches there triggered physical clashes between rival groups and the atmosphere was getting surcharged. 

Ghagha started with casting aspersions against the 'bani' of Guru Gobind Singh and then came down to passing adverse remarks on the 'bani' and history of all the gurus. 
The Akal Takhat directive has also given a stern direction to Sikhs not to cooperate in any of the seminars and conventions organised by Ghagha and his associates.


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## hakimpuria (Oct 22, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

Vijaydeep Singh ji, 
                              Guru Fateh . It’s very sad to read about this letter on the name of Mr. Ghagga by our respected Jathadar Sahib. It is equally very regretful that our own brothers (who speak about Gurbani and Our History from their point of view) are not abstaining from saying things that further divide our already divided Sikh nation. On the other side Jathadar Sahib should have given them a chance to explain their side of the story before Sangat is asked to segregate them without knowing anything. Even murderers are given a chance to explain their side before they are proven guilty. I do not see any good behavior on the part of complaining party as I heard of it from my close friends. How dare we do such things in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I respect our higher authorities but we are lowering the respect of Akal Thakat Sahib by seeing Hukamnama’s issued on these small issues, which can be resolved locally. Once again I pray that none of us do anything in Sangat that causes a split among our Sikh brothers and sisters.
                                                                           Yours Sincerely 
                                                                                     Hakimpuria


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

Gurfateh
There should have been a debate at Akal Takhat to show,that who is Ok as per Gurmat.Then say just highjacking the things all togather.

Still das goes for all the missioanaries come to Akal Takhat and have a debte with Jathedar Ji(who has by now droped title Vedanti so das will not call him Vedanti Ji).

But by know are missioanris that much mtivated that they can come our openly to confront the issues raised by gruops say AKJ?Are they (The missioary) ready to give out thier life to support thier ideology(As Fiftha dn Ninth Master did) say if someone Anti to them attack them or kill them?

Qauma bandiyan Nal Qurbaniayan De(Nations are made by sacrfise).Das tried to tranlate from Punajabi.

So to propogate thier idelogy,Missioaries have to come out in open and ready to die to preach,what they say is true.

Else thier will die,in seclusion,with thier ideology.

But often they keep on blaming AKJ or Sants about x did Bhatta Bithana or sinking of Sikhism or y did it.Are they in ample high spirit to put forth thier views?

Kindly think over the postive critisism das made just to let them think on the issue of factor dynamic(Courage,detemination and Stemina),which is more in Sants and AKJ but in Missioaries we have more intellect often imparing factor dynamic.Sant Sipahi or Saint Soldier and Miri Piri or Faith with adminstrations etc. needs balanece persenality but there seems to be imbalance on both side and both need to be reformed.

Das calls upon misisaory to initiate self sacrfise and give away the fear of life in the way of Akal.


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## plamba (Oct 24, 2006)

*Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated*

Hyper-linked version with photos:

The Sikh Times - News and Analysis - Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated

=====

Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated 

By PUNEET SINGH LAMBA 

The Sikh Times, Boston, Oct. 23, 2006 

Photo: Inder Singh Ghagga 

Photo: Kulbir Singh (second from extreme left) and Inder Singh Ghagga (extreme right) 

Photo: Brawl triggered by Inder Singh Ghagga's speech at a gurdwara in Brampton, Ontario, Canada 

Background 
##########

Inder Singh Ghagga, a former professor of the Sikh Missionary College, Ludhiana, appears to have courted controversy with the publication of his recent book Sada Berra Eon Garkia (Misrepresentations in Sikhism), Patiala: Fateh Publications, 2005. 

Inder's willingness to discuss the book appears to have fueled the controversy instead of bringing matters to an amicable conclusion. 

As a result, The Tribune (Chandigarh) reported yesterday that Inder, along with several of his associates, has been excommunicated by Joginder Singh Vedanti, jathedar (chief) of the Akal Takht (the apex Sikh authority). The Akal Takht's action is highly reminiscent of Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana's excommunication in 2003. 

It appears that the controversy began to escalate after Inder's appearance at a gurdwara in Brampton, Ontario, where his speech was followed by harsh exchanges and perhaps some violence between Inder's supporters and other parties present at the gurdwara. 

According to a video posted on YouTube.com by RaklaB on October 8, fists were thrown and turbans came off during the brawl that erupted during Inder's speech. The breaking point was apparently Inder's reference to Damdami Taksal's insistence, until very recently, that Jarnail Singh Bhinranwale did not die during Operation Bluestar in 1984 and was still alive. 

Apparently, two weeks following the exchanges at the gurdwara, agreement was reached to discuss matters on September 27, 2006 at Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib, Brampton, Ontario (http://www.tapoban.org/). 

Subsequently, another discussion was scheduled for October 1, 2006 at 9 a.m., apparently moderated by a neutral Sikh third party in the basement of a home. The discussion finally kicked off at 1 p.m. and lasted several hours. This discussion was video recorded. The following report is based on a viewing of the video recordings. 

Discussion 
##########

The format of the discussion was such that only two individuals were officially permitted to speak. The two were Inder himself and one Kulbir Singh, representing a group from Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib. Kulbir and many of his supporters were dressed in blue Akhand Kirtani Jatha (A.K.J.)-style turbans with the khandas (Khalsa emblems) attached on the front. 

Inder started off by lamenting that although he had raised some four hundred points in his writings, minor critiques were being used to distract from the primary thrust of his book. 

Guru Arjan's Martyrdom 
######################

The first issue raised was Inder's assertion that Guru Arjan must have lost consciousness during torture by the Mughals because, despite his substantial mental prowess, the Guru after all had a human body and all human bodies are naturally subject to pain. Inder clarified that he wasn't quoting any reference and that this was purely his own personal opinion. 

Kulbir objected that a Sikh could scarcely be expected to seek support from the Guru during difficult times if the Guru himself was thought to be too weak to withstand torture. 

Inder pointed out that a distinction ought to be made between the Guru and Akal Purakh (God). Kulbir seemed unable to draw the distinction. 

Inder contended that if Guru Arjan had supernatural powers to resist torture he would have used those powers to change the minds of the Mughal rulers in order to prevent them from persecuting the Sikhs in the first place. 

Further, Inder expressed objection to fantastic claims in Santokh Singh's hagiographical Suraj Parkash (1844) that Guru Angad's feet developed leprosy when Guru Nanak set his forehead at Guru Angad's feet upon appointing Angad as Guru. Inder explained that Suraj Parkash claims that this leprosy continued until the fifth Guru, Arjan, wiped Guru Nanak's son Sri Chand's feet with his beard. 

Inder also objected to stories about people drinking the eighth Guru's charan-amrit (foot-wash) to cure chechak (small pox), especially given that Guru Harkrishan himself is said to have died of small pox. 

Inder offered these examples to establish that his claim that Guru Angad must have lost consciousness during torture was no more blasphemous than well-accepted stories such as these suggesting that Guru Harkrishan himself died of small pox when Gurus were generally seen to be curing small pox. 

Kulbir retorted, 'two wrongs don't make a right.' 

Inder defended his right to cite his opinions without reference. He mentioned that Santokh Singh and many others also did not cite any references to support the views expressed in their writings. 

After Kulbir repeatedly pressured Inder to remove from his book the reference regarding Guru Arjan's loss of consciousness during torture, Inder finally agreed to consider rewording the offending sentence. 

Guru Nanak and Halal Meat 
#########################

Next, Kulbir raised an objection to Inder's view that Guru Nanak could not have refused halal meat during his travels to Mecca. Inder argued that Guru Nanak would have had to follow Muslim norms and eaten out of shared utensils in order to join the Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca. 

On the topic of meat eating, Inder contended that it was foolishness to discuss the topic since the Guru Granth refers to both those who argue in favor and those who argue against as moorakh (foolish). 

Kulbir arrived at the conclusion that Inder's wording portrayed Guru Nanak as a coward who had succumbed to Muslim pressure and eaten halal meat and that the wording ought to be modified. It seems Ghagga was pressured into agreeing. 

Naam Simran 
###########

After all of the above, the debate finally reached the main topic at hand, i.e. Kulbir's objection to Inder's inclusion of naam simran (the recitation of a specific mantra or phrase) in his list of deceitful activities currently prevalent in the Sikh Panth. The reference was to Inder's essay 'Naam Simran Ik Moorakh Dhandha' (Naam Simran, a Foolish Enterprise). 

Inder clarified that his critique of naam simran was directed at the prevalent practice of parroting certain phrases and sentences without understanding their meanings or taking the time to appreciate their import. He said that the Sikh Panth should have been at great heights by now if the thousands of unattended akhand paths (continuous recitations) had been beneficial. 

Inder asked why the Gurus had bothered to write such a comprehensive Guru Granth if it were enough to do naam simran and merely recite a choice phrase. 

Here Kulbir's request was more extreme, i.e. that the entire essay be withdrawn. Inder was willing only to modify the essay's title. 

There was no agreement and the discussion began to go in circles. Kulbir claimed that many of Sikhism's ideas were common to other religions. He said that what truly distinguished Sikhism from other religions was naam simran, the very concept that Inder appeared to be critiquing. 

The crux of most arguments appeared to be Kulbir's unwillingness to accept an alternate interpretation of the words and ideas contained in the Guru Granth. He insisted only one interpretation was valid. 

Inder emphasised the need for vichaar (contemplation) rather than naam simran. 

As things reached boiling point, Kulbir insisted that Inder's attack on naam simran was an attack on the very foundation of Sikhism. Inder took exception to Kulbir's suggestion that Inder's essay had provided Sikhism with a shoe-beating. To his credit, Kulbir instantly apologized. 

Apparently, the two had agreed to use Sahib Singh's interpretations as standard. However, at one point there was some disagreement when Kulbir wanted to use an interpretation by Harbans Singh. 

Finally, agreement was reached that Inder would acknowledge in his essay the Sikh Rahit Maryada's stipulation that a Sikh must perform naam simran as part of his/her daily regiment. 

Karaamaat 
#########

Next, there was discussion on karaamaat (magical powers). Inder suggested that no magical powers were required since the Gurus had taught Sikhs such bravery that allowed a handful to resist hundreds of thousands of Mughals at the fort of Chamkaur. This, Inder emphasised, was in contrast to how a handful of Mughals had previously invaded and occupied a land of millions. 

Inder argued that if the Gurus had alternate magical powers they would have used them to prevent all negative occurrences such as the persecution of Sikhs by Mughals. Kulbir responded that the Gurus did not use their powers to prevent certain negative occurrences for reasons mere humans cannot fathom. Inder scoffed at the futility of discussing matters that had been acknowledged as unfathomable. 

Kulbir argued that Sikhism was against individuals using magical powers to, for example, grant sons to women. He asserted, however, that it was okay to beckon magical powers of the sangat to secure the birth of a child. Inder asked why former S.G.P.C. President Gurcharan Singh Tohra had no children and why current Akal Takht Jathedar Joginder Singh Vedanti has no son despite the countless prayers offered by them and by others on their behalf. 

Conclusion 
##########

At various stages during the discussion, while Kulbir seemed inclined to beat a dead horse, Inder seemed willing to acknowledge that perhaps it was best to disagree and move on. 

Even though Kulbir had stated at the start of the discussion that there was to be no winner or loser, The Panthic Weekly report on October 11, 2006 was titled 'Inder Ghagga Loses Debates to Panthic Singhs in Toronto.' The report also fails to use Singh with Inder's name. 

Overall, the discussion was refreshingly civil despite some very controversial topics. Apparently, Kulbir's supporters outnumbered Inder's supporters and broke the rule of five attendees from each side. Despite that, for the most part, the gathering honored the rule to allow only Inder and Kulbir to speak. Although voices were raised often and tempers flared occasionally, the situation was not allowed to get out of hand. Inder, Kulbir, the organizers and other attendees ought be congratulated accordingly. 

=====

Hyper-linked version with photos:

The Sikh Times - News and Analysis - Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated

=====<br /><br />
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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 28, 2006)

*Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated*

Gurfateh

Some guys tend to loose control on self if for long meat is not provided.So they may eat Halal.Some due to getting intiemdation by Muslims or just to act like thier lesser brothers can eat Halal.

But if they Think that First Master could do that in Mecca as an adjustment or due to Prachar ,then they can tommorw say  first Master may have got circumsnetion.

As Sant Kabeer ji oppose Circumsention does he oppses Halal also.Das did idscuused that it is due to Duja Bhav that life is in blood and not in flesh but our Akal is in all.So Halal is not as per Gurmat.

Guru had power to carry out Jhatka of any animal at Mecca and let Muslim also eat with him,the same there.If he could do this at Kurukshetra in Hindus,then why should he be afraid of Muslims.When he can call Baber ,the Jaber.


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## bodhi (Oct 28, 2006)

*Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated*

Sat Sri Akal to all.

Is there any authentic web resource describing Sri Guru Nanak Devji's travels, especially into Mecca?

As we know it, Muslims have always barred all non-Muslims (kafirs as they call us) from entering Mecaa. I am just eager to understand how Sri Guruji actually entered Mecca. Did Mullas not notice or object?

Dear brother Vijaydeep Ji, is there some evidence about what you have mentioned about Sri Guruji carrying out "jhatka" in Mecca? It is interesting if it were true because slaughtering animals (even halal) in Mecca is strictly prohibited by Muslims.

Unless there is some sound evidence to show otherwise, Sri Guru Nanakji and all other saints we has been blessed with have preferred to be vegetarians including even Muslim Sufi saints. But I am ready to learn if I am wrong.


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## husanmaurkhalsa (Oct 28, 2006)

*Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated*

Waheguruji Ka Khalsa
Waheguruji Ki Fateh

That was the question in my mind
If Guru Nanak Dev ji entered mecca there should be some description
i have heard from muslims that people, there at mecca make it sure that no non-muslim can enter mecca. They prohibit entry of non-muslim even in the city in hajj days. 

I am eager to know. Or maybe Guruji didn't entered mecca (building) but just talked to kazis there?


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated*

Gurfateh

As we know that at Puri only Hindus are allowed and Guru Ji did go there.so at that time much before idiot Wahabis were founded who now rule Saudia Areibay and spread the lies that non Muslims are not allowed in mecca.At that time as a Great Peer or Sufi,It is veryly possible that Guru need to be allowed.

There have been Hindu sufis(like Sufi Sunder Das) and they without being Muslims were also verymuch respected.

Das wanted to poss an other question.As per present Wahabi tradition as Ghagga sahib said that people have to eat togather.So there is another traditon.ONE HAS TO SHAVE OFF HIS HEAD ON HAJJ.So should this be another excuse for these missioanries to have hair cut?As they try to find excuse to have Halal.

no offence to anyone.


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## bodhi (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated*

Bhai Vijaydeep Ji, SSA.

In my humble opinion, the contexts of Puri and Mecca are different, beyond comparision.

While Hindus prodly consider Sri Guru Ji to have been a great Hindu, Muslims don't claim Sri Guru Ji as a Muslim.  Considering this Hindu position, no Hindu would have objected to Sri Guruji going to Puri, just like no Hindu would object to Sikhs going into any Hindu temple today.  (I am just referring to the difference of Hindu and Muslim points of view on Sri Guru ji.  I did not mean to say whether or not He was a Hindu). 

However Mecca is different.  By no means can the examples of Puri and Mecca be compared.  As per my understanding of Islamic history, ever since the days of Mohammed's victory of Mecca, all non-muslims were banished from Mecca and not allowed to enter that city, as they say non-muslims will 'pollute' it.  So it is since the very birth of Islam, and not a recent wahabi contribution.


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## GURVINDER (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated*

inder singh gagga is an live example people who want to destroy the faith of young generation as he is a professor of sikh missionary college  he had misguided many young sikh students thise person should be debarred from evry gurudwara of india as well as abroad by akal  takht


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## GURVINDER (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

Guru Fateh . It’s very sad to read about this letter on the name of Mr. Ghagga by our respected Jathadar Sahib. It is equally very regretful that our own brothers (who speak about Gurbani and Our History from their point of view) are not abstaining from saying things that further divide our already divided Sikh nation. On the other side Jathadar Sahib should have given them a chance to explain their side of the story before Sangat is asked to segregate them without knowing anything. Even murderers are given a chance to explain their side before they are proven guilty. I do not see any good behavior on the part of complaining party as I heard of it from my close friends. How dare we do such things in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I respect our higher authorities but we are lowering the respect of Akal Thakat Sahib by seeing Hukamnama’s issued on these small issues, which can be resolved locally. Once again I pray that none of us do anything in Sangat that causes a split among our Sikh brothers and sisters.


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## GURVINDER (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

Guru Fateh . It’s very sad to read about this letter on the name of Mr. Ghagga by our respected Jathadar Sahib. It is equally very regretful that our own brothers (who speak about Gurbani and Our History from their point of view) are not abstaining from saying things that further divide our already divided Sikh nation. On the other side Jathadar Sahib should have given them a chance to explain their side of the story before Sangat is asked to segregate them without knowing anything. Even murderers are given a chance to explain their side before they are proven guilty. I do not see any good behavior on the part of complaining party as I heard of it from my close friends. How dare we do such things in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I respect our higher authorities but we are lowering the respect of Akal Thakat Sahib by seeing Hukamnama’s issued on these small issues, which can be resolved locally. Once again I pray that none of us do anything in Sangat that causes a split among our Sikh brothers and sisters.  
IT IS VERY SAID TO SEE THAT A PERSON WHO IS BOYCOTTING THE SIKHISMS AND GURU IS GIVEN RESPECT BY OVER BROTHER
 HAKIMPURIA HE IS  SAYING THAT GHAGGA  SHOULD BE GIVEN A CHANCE TO PROVE HIMSELF.  MY DEAR FRIEND'S A PERSON WHO IS GIVING SUCH A HAARSH SPEECH AGAINST OUR GURU'S SHOULD NOT SEEN BY AN EYE OF 
SYMPATHY,HE SHOULD BE GIVEN SEVERE PUNISHMENT FOR HIS CRIME


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 31, 2006)

*Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated*

Gurfateh

Dear Bro Bodhi Ji,

Das would like to add a pont over here.

Say at preseent Coomon Sikhs consider Lavan from right to left Circumvention as per Guru Jis times.

Nihungs and Namdhairs say that it iis more due to propoganda after Nirankaris influence while correct is Left to right.

So thre could be Shias and Sufis,who still behold Guru Nanakdev Maharaj Ji as Muslim and befoe Wahaibs over took ruling in Mecca and destroyed Tomb related to Prophet(PBUH)(it is mentioned in Bhai Bala Janam Sakhi).They have sperad lies that non Muslims are not Allowed in Holy Mecca.

Guru is still deemed as Muslim by Sipleeds(thier place is near Baghdad Railway stations) and in case he was not considered as Muslim,he was to be allowed as per old tradtions into Holy Mecca.As Muslim means who surreneders to will of Allah.

Then coming  back to Puri thing.There are some Hindu temples where Sikhs are not allowed or they can no go.Say there is temple where one has to go with head uncovered.

Present day logic that ony Muslims are allowed in Mecca is based upon lies spread about holy Mecca after Wahaibs toook over Saudi Kingdom.Thats what das trys to convey.Sufis  or Shias are not as such particular.The History of present so called Islam is crrupted in the same manner the way Kala Afghana gruops wants to crupot our History.

Islam is very libral.But ot Wahabism.Gurmat is Islam but not Kala Afghanaism.


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## tatkhalsa (Oct 31, 2006)

ghagga should not be excommunicated, if a person is not allowed 2 challenge and openly think of sikhi in a different school of thought we have lost our principles of beingh SIKHS (learners) WJKK WJKF

instead of taking extreme views on board sangat should remain cool and calm and listen to professor jis speechs in order to gain a higher knowledge of our sikhi


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## tatkhalsa (Oct 31, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

veer ji,

have u heard inder singhs tapes?
do u fully understand what he is saying?
can you relate these topics to everyday life?

by your previous comments i see you cannot. explain to me where ghagga insults our gurus. i myself am an amritdhari singh, however i disagree with ppl being ''thrown'' out of a religion which is seen in countries such as britain as a nation. for questioning and expanding his knowing gian... joginder vedanti is not a thinking man which has been clearly shown, i have spoken 2 badal sahib and vedanti personally in a previous trip 2 panjab, you would be shocked to c how un-knowledgable these ppl r who lead our nation.
ghagga should be questioned if ppl disagree with him, he should be debated but not in a situation where he is attacked by taksalis for saying something which is simply clear to any half decent educated man... amritdhari or not?... singho our kirpana are not here 2 undermime our non-amridhari brothers.... they are here to show that we r our gurus thinking singhs who attempt to gain gian in any way or form possible... 
WJKK WJKF


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## GURVINDER (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

http://www.panthic.org/data/images/news/categories/cat_123/2814_BhKulbirSinghJi.jPLZ SEE THIS FIRST ABOUT GHAGGA


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## tatkhalsa (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

veer ji,

iv read and USED to follow many of the articles in panthic weekly they have lately become highly biased against something which is not a sect or cult of sikhi just another school of thought... inder singh ghagga condemns a supersticious thinking which is clearly evident that our guru jis did not want us to follow, however Late respected baba thakur singh ji, in his later years began to openly confess that he was 'seeing dead people' and often told his followers to use 'dhoof' (incense sticks) in order to rid of these, this is clearly against the basic sikh principles. 
 I ask you to look at our guru jis not as gods, but as messengers of the word of god,,, in a human form,,,therefore everything experienced by our guru jis was extremely spiritual human experiences... there is no valid sense in some beliefs which people have adopted... which clearly were not set by our gurus..

SINGHO LETS STAY OPEN TO NEW THOUGHT AND KEEP OUR PANTH PURE... I ASK YOU TO THINK OVER THIS QUESTION, I AM HIGHLY ANTI- KALA AFGHANA,, YET SOME OF HIS POINTS ARE INTERESTING AND HIGHLY DEBATABLE... I AM A DEVOUT SINGH AND MY FAMILY HAS GIVEN A GREAT SACRIFICE SINCE THE 1984 HOLOCAUST... EVEN TODAY I AM STILL INVOLVED IN MANY SIKH CHARITIES AND ORGANISE MANY KIRTAN EVENTS... HOWEVER, HAVE WE LOST OUR PRINCIPLE OF BEING SIKHS (LEARNERS) IF WE ARE NOT ALLOWING A MAN TO EXPRESS HIS VIEWS?... AND EVEN IF GHAGGA IS WRONG, OUR TAKSALI VEERS HAVE NO JUSTIFICATION IN SNATCHING A MICROPHONE OF GHAGGA AS A 5 YEAR OLD CHILD WOULD DO... I MYSELF TIE A DHUMALLA AND WEAR A NEELA CHOLA,, THIS DOES NOT GIVE ME ANY AUTHORITY OVER MY SINGHS, I AM A SLAVE TO MY GURU AND I SHALL STAY THIS WAY I WOULD NEVER THINK OF ATTACKING OR PROVOKING AN INITIAL ATTACK ON A BROTHER IN THE HAZOOREE OF SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI MAHARAJ...

LETS KEEP THE DEBATE GOING... LET GHAGGA SPEAK,,,!

WJKK WJKF


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

Gurfateh

Das here agrees more to tatkhalsa Ji.

We need to put our side(both das's and Gurvinder Singh Ji's) idelogically and prove it logiaclly.If other side fails to justify the stand then only ties can be snapped.

Just secternal bias should not work.Das would like to say that some pro panthic.org peopl are very much not liking Sant Ji of Dhadrian Wale.So that does not justify them to force Sant Ji out of Faith.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated*

Gurfateh

Das did some anlysis and does come with more clarification with Puir thing.

At present a person born in Hindu family is only allowed at Puri.A convertee from other faiths to Hinduism or reconvertee to hinduism is not allowed as well.

There could be a big paradox that westeners from ISKON are also allowed in.
But in past in most Hindu temples lower castes were not allowed(This could be there in some places).Barber whenever had to carry out religeous duty to shave head use to sit outside the temple.

due to idols at Darbar Sahib not long before lower castes were not allowe d and by mercy of Akal,we at present have thrown both idols and caste off the Darbar Sahib.

Only three Dvija/DIJ or Dvijana people were allowed in tmeple.Dvijanma is one who is first born from mother and then into faith via Ygyopweet or Janeu.At the time of Guru only so called Brahmin,Kshatryas and Vaishyas were allowed in temple ,who had janeu/sacred thread or Yagyopaweet.

So there seems no possiblity that Guru had that thread which could have made Pandits behold him as Hindu.other then Thread two more things ie Tilaks and Dhoti is also mark of Dij.which guru may not have had.Otherwise if Pandits have asked him about his parents Castes,he could hve told them but then also anyone can wear cared thread and can tell about some high caste paerntage,which can be verfied from Bhat Bahis(records of visiters with brahmins at pilgrimage centres).

So last thing remains is that Pandits amy ask some verse from scriptrues to verfy if perosn is DIj or not.And only after Nirmalas that lower caste got accsess to scriptures.

so should we behold that Guru should have inpersonated as Hindu,with Thrre Marks of Tilak,Janeu and Dhoti or told that he is Khatrie from Punajb or said some verse to prove himself as Dij.

answer is no NO!

Guru had used logic and knwoledge to prove caste based thing not as per sprituality and faith(including Holy Vedas) and as respect,he could have been called at Puri Temple.Same could be seeen as at Mecca.


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## tatkhalsa (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

no dhaddrian wala has clearly gone against basic sikh principles such as non-idol worshipping however ghagga has not done this... i dont believe in breaking rehat maryada but wen a fellow singh has a different school of thought but is still within rehat maryada of our gurus... who r we 2 decide whether he/she can still be a member of the panth.... remember tht maan pehowale... the rapist was allowed in the panth... as were the narkdharis we have left no margin of error for our fellow singhs

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karo if i have offended any1

WJKK WJKF


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## GURVINDER (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*



tatkhalsa said:


> no dhaddrian wala has clearly gone against basic sikh principles such as non-idol worshipping however ghagga has not done this... i dont believe in breaking rehat maryada but wen a fellow singh has a different school of thought but is still within rehat maryada of our gurus... who r we 2 decide whether he/she can still be a member of the panth.... remember tht maan pehowale... the rapist was allowed in the panth... as were the narkdharis we have left no margin of error for our fellow singhs
> 
> Bhul Chuk Maaf Karo if i have offended any1
> 
> WJKK WJKF


VEERJI FIRST OF ALL TELL ME WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH DHADRIA WALA  FIRST OF ALL  SEE IN YOUR OWN LIFE WHAT HAD YOU DONE FOR SIKHISM  DHADRIA WALA JI IS PERFORMING A KIND OF SEWA BY MAKING THEM AMRITDHARI HE IS NOT LIKE GHAGGA WHO DEBARRED GURU'S BANI AND MAKE HIS O9WN THOUGHT'S


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

Gurfateh
Das needs more elaboration that how Sant Ji of Dhadrian are propogating idol worshipping and not Akal worshping?Das asks this question for Bhai Tatkhalsa Ji.

Anyway if das is not mistaken Rahit Maryada forbades Halal,which Ghugga Sahib Ji have said,that Guru took as Mecca.


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## tatkhalsa (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

ok but ghagga is obeying it himself yes?

and dhaddrian wala was found letting ppl matha tekh 2 him... as was pehovay wala!

Y DO WE NEED SANTs IF WE HAVE OUR GURU??? :S 

wot have i done for my sikhi... well 8 years of my studies i spent learning medicinal and biological law and criminal law.... to a national and international level... i now provide my services free of charge to the families of shaheed veers in panjab... since the 1980s holocaust i have extinguished 8 panjab police members and brought them 2 justice which is a high price to pay i have had constant death threats and attempts on my life... i am highly involved in restoring gurdwaray with my wage i earn in the UK... without accrediting my name and damaging or changing the gurughar in any way.... i am also continously doing sewa and going to my guru maharaj as a slave 2 him.... tell me ,, do ure sants even lower theirselves 2 sri guru granth sahib ji? what makes them any better than any other person, if they are not fully obiding to rehat maryada theirselves?

point proven?... i think so veero!

WJKK WJKF


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 4, 2006)

i second tatkhalsa


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## Arvind (Nov 6, 2006)

Does any one know what are his comments about Benti Chaupai and Ardaas?


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 6, 2006)

Arvind and others,

Sat Shri Akaal,


I would like to mentions a few points on *Inder Singh Ghagga* and the related issues. I have seen a lot of people commenting on Inder Singh in a bad way on the blogs and forums without even knowing or reading his work.  I request all fellow sikhs, please do not do so without first reading all his work. You,me and others do not stand a chance to judge *Inder Singh Ghagga* as we are not so much educated to do so.

Let me start by mentioning that I strictly do not agree to the following points made by *Inder Singh Ghagga ( but I agree with 100s and 100s of other points that he has made)*
Halal Meat: I disagree with the point made that Guru Nanak Dev ji might have eaten halal meat during their visit to Mecca. Seems like Inder Singh Ghagga got a little far in his thinking here. Thankfully, Inder Singh Ji agreed to edit his words to change this.
Guru Arjan Dev ji getting unconscious: Again, I do not agree. In meditation, there is a stage when one loses the sense of time. Then comes the stage when one loses the sense of pain. When one loses the sense of pain, one simply cannot get unconscious by pain. I strongly believe our gurus had achieved higher states of self control.
Naam Simran: Again do not agree. But here it seems to be more of a confusion and communication gap. Inder Singh Ghagga seems to make a point that just naam simran and no act of gaining knowledge will not help Sikhism and I agree with his point. But I also agree to Bhai Kulbir Singh that naam simran helps to start gaining knowledge and its like a stepping stone. Also I do believe that getting up early in the morning and doing path helps. The reason is related to neuro-biology and how are body is made. Will discuss in detail if any body is interested.
Having said that and having disagreed on the above points with *Inder Singh Ghagga,* I do have a lot of respect for this person. Please do not call him names just because some so called giani *Joginder Singh Vedanti* thinks he is not a Sikh. Vedanti is not God, he cannot restrict the freedom of speech of any Sikh. Do you know that *Joginder Singh Vedanti* has done? He co-edited a text which says the following: -

   1. *portrays Guru Hargobind as the twenty-fourth reincarnation [avatar] of [the Hindu god] Vishnu

* 2*. asserts that the Darbar Sahib's four entrances represent not egalitarianism but 'the four arms of Chatarbhuji (a Hindu god).*


..... do you agree with this nonsense?? I think *Joginder Singh Vedanti* should be excommunicated and not others.

Do you know why J*oginder Singh Vedanti* excommunicated *Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana*? Simple, to take revenge. *Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana* objected to the above written text and co-edited by Joginder Singh Vedanti and called Vedanti "paapi" so Vedanti simply excommunicated him. Do you think this is right? I have lived in Punjab and I am totally worried about what is happening there. These guys (*Badal, Vedanti et all*) have been in power from ages, then why is Punjabi lacking in education? Why is Punjab lacking in technological development? Why the females count is less as compared to male? Why there are dowry related deaths everyday? Why Punjab transportation is so bad? Why there is no IIT in Punjab? Where are the millions of dollars of public money gone that Badal sab was to spend on Anandpur? etc etc etc...have you all asked these questions to yourself and ever tried to find answers? ....please please do it. These people have eaten away the roots of Punjab and Sikhism and people like Inder Singh Ghagga and Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana are worried about it and they are risking their lives to save the legacy of Guru Nanak Dev ji. If you do not agree first read all the articles by Inder Singh Ghagga at www.sikhmarg.org

All articles are excellent, but yours truly highly recommends to start by reading: -
*
1. Gurbani Wich Vigyanik Sach (Scientific Truths in Gurbani)

2. Kallar Khet lai kood Jamaya (part-1)

3. Kallar Khet lia Kood Jamaya (part-2)

4. Tuhanu Gurpurab Mubarak

5. Kee Sikha ne 1857 wich gaddari keeti?*

(If anyone does not understand punjabi, I think he/she should first learn it and then comment on Inder Singh Ghagga. Because if we do not know to read/write Punjabi who are we to comment on Inder Singh Ghagga? If still someone is lazy to learn, I dont think you should devoid your brain from these great articles, ping me and I shall translate to English the selective ones you want... but this might take some time as I have a hectic schedule, every one of us have)

I think Inder Singh Ghagga has done great work in these articles (if you disagree read them all on POFESSOR INDER SINGH GHAGGA'S ARTICLES and tell mere where you disagree with him) and I agree to all parts of these articles. We cannot punish him so hard just because he wrote a couple of points which seem to be wrong ( or may be he mistakenly used wrong words to discuss those points), what about 100s and 100s of other points on which he is very right. I feel ashamed of the kind of treatment Sikhs are giving him. *Please read his work before commenting on him*. You should use your own concious and thinking to make a decision no J*oginder Singh Vedanti* should direct you to do something. After all your gurus wanted us to reason and think, why are we being lead by idiots who do not understand Gurbani at all?. You are Sikh (Learner) for life, so learn my friend and learn to respect people who are visionaries. Please post your comments after you read atleast the atricles that I have recommended above. We all should back Inder Singh Gaggha (...also make him know that though we are with him we do not agree to some points he made). He certainly does not deserve the disrespect that is being shown against him. Listen to him, how frustrated and helpless this poor guy ( Inder Singh ji ) is feeling that not many of Guru Sikh seem to understand his points. If any one need more of the points that he has made please listen to his complete book at:-

*Book- Sada Beda Ayun Garkia *(audio)
( ...here the writer has brought to light so many blasphemous act and writing that are existing against the teachings of our Guru's)
*Katha- in a gurudwara in Waterloo*


I sincerely hope that we Sikhs will raise our conscious to the level that a true Sikh should have. I encourage you to read and increase your knowledge and be a true Khalsa. Moreover, please help stop posting unreasonable stuff like "Inder Ghagga loses debate to young Sikh"... this is not right, if you hear the debate carefully? Kulbir Singh started by saying, " we are here to discuss, there is no winner or loser". The pathic site made a mistake by using "Inder Ghagga loses debate to young Sikh" title on their posting, they went against what Bhai Inder Singh said in the debate.

Sat Shri Akaal!

* "Ve Sikha, tu ke Sikha?"*
(Oh my learner! what have you learned?)

Your truly,
Akashdeep Singh


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 6, 2006)

I think Inder Singh Ghagga has brought very good points other the a few on which he seems to have gone a little too far. He has agree to change those lines. Every Sikh should read what he has written before commenting on him.


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 6, 2006)

Arvind and Others,

Sat Shri Akaal,


I would like to mentions a few points on *Inder Singh Ghagga* and the related issues. I have seen a lot of people commenting on Inder Singh in a bad way on various forums and blogs, I request everyone please do not do so without first reading all his work. You,me and others do not stand a chance to judge *Inder Singh Ghagga* as we are not so much educated to do so.

Let me start by mentioning that I do not agree to the following points made by *Inder Singh Ghagga*, but I agree to most of  the 100s and 100s of points that he has brought forward to the notice of the Sikh Panth.

   1. Halal Meat
I totally disagree with the point made that Guru Nanak Dev ji might have eaten halal meat during their visit to Mecca. Seems like Inder Singh Ghagga got a little far in his thinking here. Thankfully, he agree to edit his words to change this.

   2. Guru Arjan Dev ji getting unconscious
Again, I do not agree. In meditation, there is a stage when one loses the sense of time. Then comes the stage when one loses the sense of pain. When one loses the sense of pain, one simply cannot get unconscious by pain. I strongly believe our gurus had achieved higher states of self control.

   3. Naam Simran
 Again do not agree. But here it seems to be more of a confusion and communication gap. Inder Singh Ghagga seems to make a point that just naam simran and no act of gaining knowledge will not help Sikhism and I agree with his point. But I also agree to Bhai Kulbir Singh that naam simran helps to start gaining knowledge and its like a stepping stone. Also I do believe that getting up early in the morning and doing path helps. The reason is related to neuro-biology and how are body is made. Will discuss in detail if any body is interested. 


Having said that and having disagreed on the above points with *Inder Singh Ghagga*, I do have *great respect* for this person. Please do not call him names just because some so called giani *Joginder Singh Vedanti* thinks he is not a Sikh. Vedanti is not God, he cannot restrict the freedom of speech of any Sikh. Do you know that *Joginder Singh Vedanti *has done? He co-edited a text which says the following: -

*   1. portrays Guru Hargobind as the twenty-fourth reincarnation [avatar] of [the Hindu god] Vishnu

2. asserts that the Darbar Sahib's four entrances represent not egalitarianism but 'the four arms of Chatarbhuji (a Hindu god).*


..... do you agree with this nonsense?? I think Joginder Singh Vedanti should be excommunicated and not others.

Do you know why *Joginder Singh Vedanti *excommunicated *Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana*? Simple, to take revenge. Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana objected to the above written text and co-edited by Joginder Singh Vedanti and called Vedanti "paapi" so Vedanti simply excommunicated him. Do you think this is right? I have lived in Punjab and I am totally worried about what is happening there. These guys (*Badal, Vedanti et all*) have been in power from ages, 
then why is Punjabi lacking in education? 
Why is Punjab lacking in technological development? 
Why the females count is less as compared to male? 
Why there are dowry related deaths everyday? 
Why Punjab transportation is so bad? 
Why there is no IIT in Punjab? 
Where are the millions of dollars of public money gone that Badal sab was to spend on Anandpur? 
..........................................
....................................etc etc etc...
Have you all asked these questions to yourself and ever tried to find answers? ....please please do it. These people have eaten away the roots of Punjab and Sikhism and people like *Inder Singh Ghagga* and *Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana* are worried about it and they are risking their lives to save the legacy of *Guru Nanak Dev ji*. If you do not agree first read all the articles by Inder Singh Ghagga at www.sikhmarg.org
All articles are excellent, but yours truly highly recommends to start by reading: -

1. *Gurbani Wich Vigyanik Sach *(Scientific Truths in Gurbani) 

2. *Kallar Khet lai kood Jamaya (part-1)*

3. *Kallar Khet lia Kood Jamaya (part-2) *

4. *Tuhanu Gurpurab Mubarak*

5. *Kee Sikha ne 1857 wich gaddari keeti?*
....these all in Punjabi.
(I think if anyone does not understand punjabi, first he/she should learn it and then comment on I*nder Singh Ghagga*. Because if we do not know to read/write Punjabi who are we to comment on Inder Singh Ghagga? If still y anyboyd is lazy to learn Punjabi, I dont think you should devoid your brain from these great articles, ping me and I shall translate to English the selective ones you want... but this might take some time as I have a hectic schedule, every one of us have)

You can also listen to his book "Sada Beda Ayun Garkia" at:-
*Book - Sada Beda Ayun Garkia (audio)
*(...listen to the 100s of blasphemous writings that Inder Singh Ji point and bring to the notice of the Khalsa. Notice, his voice how frustrated and helpless this true Sikh (Inder Singh Ghagga) is feelings about fellow Sikhs not understanding the issues that he is raising.)
*Katha - at some gurudwara in Waterloo*
Listen what people have written that Inder Singh Ghagga is worried about, and he (Inder Singh Ghagga) wants us to know. For example, one  of the Taksal leader is writing: -
1.We got kachchera ( Sikh undergarment) from Hanuman (...oh god! none of the sikhs is agains this writing??)
2. We have long hair and beards so that we can be pulled out from "nark" by holding our long hair ( what an insult to sikh identity!)
3. Sikhs priest should not eat garlic and onion (what?? these are brahamwad superstitions)
4. A pati-wrata (husband worshipping) women can hold the sun from rising and can travel from Kabul to Goindwal every day, thats not all...she can move her child's cradle in Kabul by just moving her hand while she is in Goindwal.
5. Sant Singh Maskeen calls himself "Brahm Gyani" and our sikhs are listening to his followers blindly.Gurbani clearly mentions who is "Brahm Gyani" how can Sant Singh Maskeen be Brahm Gyani ??
....there are countless other disasterous teaching and writing that people are putting into the head of Sikhs and *Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga ji *have brought them to our notice rightly. I am so much obliged to Inder Singh Ghagga ji. I encourage all true sikhs to read and understand all his points, I am 100% sure not true Sikh can disagree with Inder Singh Ghagga ji( other then a couple of places)

I think *Inder Singh Ghagga* has done great work in these articles and I agree to all parts of these articles. We cannot punish him so hard just because he wrote a couple of points which seem to be wrong, what about 100s and 100s of other points on which he is very right. I feel ashamed of the kind of treatment Sikh youth is giving him. Please read his work before commenting on him. You should use your own concious and thinking to make decision no *Joginder Singh Vedanti* should direct you to do something. You as Sikh (Learner) for life, so learn my friend and learn to respect people who are visionaries. Please post your comments after you read atleast the atricles that I have recommended above. We all should back *Inder Singh Gaggha* (...also make him know that though we are with him we do not agree to some points he made). He certainly does not deserve the disrespect that is being shown against him.

I hope all my fellow Sikhs will raise their conscious to the level that a true Sikh should have. I encourage you to read and increase your knowledge and be a true Khalsa. Moreover, please help stop posting unreasonable stuff like "Inder Ghagga loses debate to young Sikh"... this is not right, did you hear the debate carefully? Kulbir Singh started by saying, " we are here to discuss, there is no winner or loser". The pathic site made a mistake by using "Inder Ghagga loses debate to young Sikh" title on their posting, they went against what Bhai Inder Singh said in the debate.

Sat Shri Akaal!

_*"Ve Sikha, tu ke Sikha?"*_
(Oh my learner! what have you learned?)

Your truly,
Akashdeep Singh Aulakh


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 6, 2006)

*[ERRATA]
*If you do not agree first read all the articles by Inder Singh Ghagga at *

POFESSOR INDER SINGH GHAGGA'S ARTICLES

*Sat Shri Akaal,
Akashdeep Singh Aulakh


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 6, 2006)

Dear kds1980, 

I think you wrote in favor of what I have posted, but the words are making me feel something else 

I did not understand your following comments:-
1. "today the position of sikhism is not different from islam" What are you saying here? Please elaborate.
2. "if you disagree with the so-called scholars of sikhism" Which scholars are you talking about?
3. "you will be ex-communicated" who?

Did you mean the following?:-
"Sikhism is somehow become close minded like Islam these days and if someone tries to reason and question the guys who are distorting the gurbani and going against its teachings, these people like Joginder Singh Vedanti will simply misuse their power and excommunicate the thinkers and true Sikhs"

If that is what you wanted to say, please change your post above to reflect it. Otherwise, please elaborate your points so that people can understand it quickly.


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated*

Khalsa ji,

Sat Shri Akaal,


I would like to mentions a few points on *Inder Singh Ghagga* and the related issues. I have seen a lot of people commenting on Inder Singh in a bad way on various forums and blogs, I request everyone please do not do so without first reading all his work. You,me and others do not stand a chance to judge *Inder Singh Ghagga* as we are not so much educated to do so.

Let me start by mentioning that I do not agree to the following points made by *Inder Singh Ghagga*, but I agree to most of  the 100s and 100s of points that he has brought forward to the notice of the Sikh Panth.

1. Halal Meat
I totally disagree with the point made that Guru Nanak Dev ji might have eaten halal meat during their visit to Mecca. Seems like Inder Singh Ghagga got a little far in his thinking here. Thankfully, he agree to edit his words to change this.

2. Guru Arjan Dev ji getting unconscious
Again, I do not agree. In meditation, there is a stage when one loses the sense of time. Then comes the stage when one loses the sense of pain. When one loses the sense of pain, one simply cannot get unconscious by pain. I strongly believe our gurus had achieved higher states of self control.

3. Naam Simran
Again do not agree. But here it seems to be more of a confusion and communication gap. Inder Singh Ghagga seems to make a point that just naam simran and no act of gaining knowledge will not help Sikhism and I agree with his point. But I also agree to Bhai Kulbir Singh that naam simran helps to start gaining knowledge and its like a stepping stone. Also I do believe that getting up early in the morning and doing path helps. The reason is related to neuro-biology and how are body is made. Will discuss in detail if any body is interested. 


Having said that and having disagreed on the above points with Inder Singh Ghagga, I do have a lot of respect for this person. Please do not call him names just because some so called giani Joginder Singh Vedanti thinks he is not a Sikh. Vedanti is not God, he cannot restrict the freedom of speech of any Sikh. Do you know that Joginder Singh Vedanti has done? He co-edited a text which says the following: -

*1. portrays Guru Hargobind as the twenty-fourth reincarnation [avatar] of [the Hindu god] Vishnu

2. asserts that the Darbar Sahib's four entrances represent not egalitarianism but 'the four arms of Chatarbhuji (a Hindu god).*


..... do you agree with this nonsense?? I think Joginder Singh Vedanti should be excommunicated and not others.

Do you know why *Joginder Singh Vedanti *excommunicated *Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana*? Simple, to take revenge. Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana objected to the above written text and co-edited by Joginder Singh Vedanti and called Vedanti "paapi" so Vedanti simply excommunicated him. Do you think this is right? I have lived in Punjab and I am totally worried about what is happening there. These guys (*Badal, Vedanti et all*) have been in power from ages, 
then why is Punjabi lacking in education? 
Why is Punjab lacking in technological development? 
Why the females count is less as compared to male? 
Why there are dowry related deaths everyday? 
Why Punjab transportation is so bad? 
Why there is no IIT in Punjab? 
Where are the millions of dollars of public money gone that Badal sab was to spend on Anandpur? 
..........................................
....................................etc etc etc...
Have you all asked these questions to yourself and ever tried to find answers? ....please please do it. These people have eaten away the roots of Punjab and Sikhism and people like *Inder Singh Ghagga* and *Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana* are worried about it and they are risking their lives to save the legacy of *Guru Nanak Dev ji*. If you do not agree first read all the articles by Inder Singh Ghagga at www.sikhmarg.org
All articles are excellent, but yours truly highly recommends to start by reading: -

1. *Gurbani Wich Vigyanik Sach *(Scientific Truths in Gurbani) 

2. *Kallar Khet lai kood Jamaya (part-1)*

3. *Kallar Khet lia Kood Jamaya (part-2) *

4. *Tuhanu Gurpurab Mubarak*

5. *Kee Sikha ne 1857 wich gaddari keeti?*
....these all in Punjabi.
(I think if anyone does not understand punjabi, first he/she should learn it and then comment on I*nder Singh Ghagga*. Because if we do not know to read/write Punjabi who are we to comment on Inder Singh Ghagga? If still y anyboyd is lazy to learn Punjabi, I dont think you should devoid your brain from these great articles, ping me and I shall translate to English the selective ones you want... but this might take some time as I have a hectic schedule, every one of us have)

You can also listen to his book "Sada Beda Ayun Garkia" at:-
*Book - Sada Beda Ayun Garkia (audio)
*(...listen to the 100s of blasphemous writings that Inder Singh Ji point and bring to the notice of the Khalsa. Notice, his voice how frustrated and helpless this true Sikh (Inder Singh Ghagga) is feelings about fellow Sikhs not understanding the issues that he is raising.)
*Katha - at some gurudwara in Waterloo*
*
*Listen what people have written that Inder Singh Ghagga is worried about, and he (Inder Singh Ghagga) wants us to know. For example, one  of the Taksal leader is writing: -
1.We got kachchera ( Sikh undergarment) from Hanuman (...oh god! none of the sikhs is agains this writing??)
2. We have long hair and beards so that we can be pulled out from "nark" by holding our long hair ( what an insult to sikh identity!)
3. Sikhs priest should not eat garlic and onion (what?? these are brahamwad superstitions)
4. A pati-wrata (husband worshipping) women can hold the sun from rising and can travel from Kabul to Goindwal every day, thats not all...she can move her child's cradle in Kabul by just moving her hand while she is in Goindwal.
5. Sant Singh Maskeen calls himself "Brahm Gyani" and our sikhs are listening to his followers blindly.Gurbani clearly mentions who is "Brahm Gyani" how can Sant Singh Maskeen be Brahm Gyani ??
....there are countless other disasterous teaching and writing that people are putting into the head of Sikhs and *Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga ji *have brought them to our notice rightly. I am so much obliged to Inder Singh Ghagga ji. I encourage all true sikhs to read and understand all his points, I am 100% sure not true Sikh can disagree with Inder Singh Ghagga ji( other then a couple of places)

I think *Inder Singh Ghagga* has done great work in these articles and I agree to all parts of these articles. We cannot punish him so hard just because he wrote a couple of points which seem to be wrong, what about 100s and 100s of other points on which he is very right. I feel ashamed of the kind of treatment Sikh youth is giving him. Please read his work before commenting on him. You should use your own concious and thinking to make decision no *Joginder Singh Vedanti* should direct you to do something. You as Sikh (Learner) for life, so learn my friend and learn to respect people who are visionaries. Please post your comments after you read atleast the atricles that I have recommended above. We all should back *Inder Singh Gaggha* (...also make him know that though we are with him we do not agree to some points he made). He certainly does not deserve the disrespect that is being shown against him.

I hope all my fellow Sikhs will raise their conscious to the level that a true Sikh should have. I encourage you to read and increase your knowledge and be a true Khalsa. Moreover, please help stop posting unreasonable stuff like "Inder Ghagga loses debate to young Sikh"... this is not right, did you hear the debate carefully? Kulbir Singh started by saying, " we are here to discuss, there is no winner or loser". The pathic site made a mistake by using "Inder Ghagga loses debate to young Sikh" title on their posting, they went against what Bhai Inder Singh said in the debate.

Sat Shri Akaal!

*"Ve Sikha, tu ke Sikha?"*
(Oh my learner! what have you learned?)

Your truly,
Akashdeep Singh Aulakh


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## Lionchild (Nov 7, 2006)

_1. Halal Meat
I totally disagree with the point made that Guru Nanak Dev ji might have eaten halal meat during their visit to Mecca. Seems like Inder Singh Ghagga got a little far in his thinking here. Thankfully, he agree to edit his words to change this._

I was talking about this with a close contact our gurdwara, and he told me that no one really knows what Guru Nanak Dev Ji did in some parts of the trip. However, it came to my mind and both of ours: "why would the Guru's serve something that they themselves would not eat? that would totally going against the guru's teaching of equality." But the point was not meat, it was the teaching of equality, and why would a teacher teach his class something and not practice  it himself?

Whether meat was served or not i cannot say, since i have no source to look for such info, but that concept of equality pretty much answers the question already.


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## kds1980 (Nov 7, 2006)

Akashdeep Singh said:


> Dear kds1980,
> 
> I think you wrote in favor of what I have posted, but the words are making me feel something else
> 
> ...



akashdeep ji i yes i wrote in favour of you .i agree with you what you said and you have interpretted it right what i mean.
sikhism is becoming close minded like islam and for petty issues sikhs are excommunicated.


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## Arvind (Nov 7, 2006)

*Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated*

I am very impressed by Prof Ghagga's writings.

If anyone has the booklet by Ganda Singh... pls post here.

Regards, Arvind.


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## Arvind (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks Akashdeep.... The efforts are commendable.

Regards.


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 8, 2006)

Dear Friends,

I have converted to english some 45 points from the 100s of points that Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga have brought to the notice of the Khalsa. He has brought foreward many points, but I am first posting below the points he want us to know from the writings of Taksal.

Following are some of the blunders in Taksal writings: -


Giani Gurbachan Singh (Taksal leader) himself      prefixed the following “alankaars” to his name : “Srimaan - Panth Ratan      -Vidya Martand – Sant – Giani – Gurbachan Singh Ji.”
Taksal is emphasizing that Guru Nanak Dev ji is from Kush (Ram’s sons) dynasty.
Guru Angad Sahib ji is written to be from the dynasty      of Lakshman’s son.
Guru Amardaas ji is told to be from the dynasty of      Bharat.
Guru Ramdaas ji is written to be from the dynasty of      lahoo.
Guru Har Rai ji got married 8 times.
Bhai Dya Singh (one of the panj pyare) was avatar      (re-incarnation) of lahoo
Bhai Dharam Singh (one of the panj pyare) was avtar      of Panna ji.
Bhai Himmat Singh (one of the panj pyare) was avtar      of Chaturbhuji (four armed)
Bhai Mohkam Singh (one of the panj pyare) was avtar      of Namdev ji
Bhai Sahib Singh (one of the panj pyare) was avtar of      Sain ji
A lady with her “pati vrata shakti” (power gained by      worshipping her husband) could travel for Kabul      to Goindwal every morning and return back to Kabul every evening. With her same power      she could move the cradle of her child in Kabul while she was in Goindwal.
Another lady with the same “pati vrata shakti”      stopped the sun from rising and only released the sun when her husband was      made alive by the gods again.
Satguru has restricted us from wearing red color      clothes.
Taksal has written that “Mool mantar” is till “Nanak      ho si bhi sach” whereas the truth is that “Mool mantar” is till “Gur      parsad”.
Baba Sunder Singh’s father Khajan Singh used to read      path standing on one foot so that he could get a son as a boon.
While the child is being born, the nurse (or “dai”)      should only be a Sikh. Does not Taksal members and leaders go to      hospitals? ... are all nurses Sikh there?
Baba Farid kept meditating in jungles for years and      ate the leaves of trees. This is totally false, as I have read Baba Farid      was against such acts.
Baba Farid kept hanging in a well for 13 years and      kept meditating.
Guru Gobind Singh ji had a hidden book with them.      (why would guru ji hide that from his Khalsa, I think this is being said      so that these guys (taksal) can write their own book and later say they      have found that hidden book).
Bhai Dya Singh, Dharam Singh , Bhai Himmat Singh,      Bhai Mohkam Singh and Bhai Sahib Singh’s head was cut by Guru Gobind Singh      ji and put as a giving in front of Guru Granth Sahib. Taksal mentions that      this fact is written in hidden book of Guru Gobind Singh ji. (Excellent      way to fool innocent people!).
Bhai Himmat Singh Ji ( one of panj pyare ) was cursed      in his last birth. God had told him that       in the form of 10th guru I will cut your head and      release you. (This seems to be a story picked up from Hindu mythology)
When the heads of Panj Pyare were cut, amrit was      sprinkled and new heads grew on their shoulders. (Notice the use of      “grew”).
Guru ji gave “amrit” to 2 sparrows and those 2      sparrows died fighting with each other. Gurbaksh Singh named sikh ran to      honorable mother and she put some patasey (sweets) into amrit only then      the amrit became peaceful. (Think it over, the so called mythical man in      Taksal writing ran to honorable mother. Does that mean had disbelief in      Guru Gobind Singh ji, does this mean Guru ji made some blunder while      preparing amrit??)
Panj pyare’s said to Guru Gobind Singh Ji, “Just like      Ram Chander honored monkeys, you are honoring us”. ( are we monkeys now??      And that too panj pyare?? This is insult of each sikh)
If you recite Keertan Sohila before sleeping an iron      fort will be build around you. (Think, if that is possible then we do not      need to lock our houses).
Tobbacco has come into being due to the blood that      oozed out of the feet of kaamdhenu Cow. (wow! It will take an idiot to      believe this and they are trying to teach this to the Sikhs).
Khalsa should only wear blue, yellow, black or white,      no other color.
Narad muni (from Hindu mythology) gifted Guru Gobind      Singh ji with the feathers of a bird, that is why Guru Gobind Singh ji had      so many powers.
When Dan Singh asked about long hair of Sikhs, Guru      Gobind Singh ji replied that Sikhs have long hair so that they can be      pulled out of hell by holding them with these long hair (what an insult of      Sikh identity)
Women should not be involved in preparation of amrit.
Women should not perform Gidha in marriages.
The wife of King Hari Sen came to court in a viel,      Guru asked, “who is this insane women?” The same time she became insane.      (Think, will guru ji make any body insane?)
Bhai Heera Singh died while reciting Gurbani.      Chariots (rath) from sky came to take him. ( I feel like laughing, seems      like these people have watched Ramanand Sagar’s Ramayan too much)
Kachchera (undergarment), comb etc. should be tied      with a dead person. (Again!, a Hindu superstition).
Sikh priests should not eat garlic and onion.      (What??)
Use desi ghee (oil made from butter) for jyot      (candle) for paath and dhoop (fragrance stick) should always be burning.      (Very soon, they will release the next version of it – keep everything in      a plate and perform aarti of Guru Granth Sahib and put tilak on everyone’s      forehead)
Also Taksal has mentioned the list of other such      materials needed for paath.(Just like a pandit will give a long list of      “pooja samgri”)
After bhog performing aarti is necessary.
Taksal writings mention, you cannot go in front of      Guru Granth Sahib wearing pajamas, women should also follow the same rule.      (Do you see any logic here??)
To give the proof that he is right guru, 10th      guru recited Gurbani entirely from his memory so that people do not      suspect him. (????)
Sikh Priest should kept “maun vrat”, should not court      with his wife. If he suffers from night fall he should go to toiled and      then wash his hair. (Oh god! What nonsense?).
Gifting coconut is equal to gifting a head. (well,      then why “Sir dhar tali gali meri ayo”??? why not “Nariyal (coconut) dhar      tali gali meri ayo” ????)
If paath is recited properly then the inside nut part      of the coconut will become ashes.
Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha has written wrong by Raag      Mala. (Dear readers let me inform you and even Giani Gurdit Singh ji      rejects Raag Mala as authentic part of Gurbani and he has proved with      facts that this has been added by some unauthorized person. Enthusiastic      reader is encourage to search the internet for “Mundavani” and related      spellings.)
 These are just a few points and there are various others that I have yet to translate. This is first draft of the translation written in one go under the effect of tiredness from work and sleep, therefore, pardon my mistakes. I will improve the translations as I get more time and go through revisions. 

Sat Shri Akaal,

-Akashdeep.


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 8, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

Khalsa ji,

Sat Shri Akaal,


I would like to mentions a few points on *Inder Singh Ghagga* and the related issues. I have seen a lot of people commenting on Inder Singh in a bad way on various forums and blogs, I request everyone please do not do so without first reading all his work. You,me and others do not stand a chance to judge *Inder Singh Ghagga* as we are not so much educated to do so.

Let me start by mentioning that I do not agree to the following points made by *Inder Singh Ghagga*, but I agree to most of  the 100s and 100s of points that he has brought forward to the notice of the Sikh Panth.

1. Halal Meat
I totally disagree with the point made that Guru Nanak Dev ji might have eaten halal meat during their visit to Mecca. Seems like Inder Singh Ghagga got a little far in his thinking here. Thankfully, he agree to edit his words to change this.

2. Guru Arjan Dev ji getting unconscious
Again, I do not agree. In meditation, there is a stage when one loses the sense of time. Then comes the stage when one loses the sense of pain. When one loses the sense of pain, one simply cannot get unconscious by pain. I strongly believe our gurus had achieved higher states of self control.

3. Naam Simran
Again do not agree. But here it seems to be more of a confusion and communication gap. Inder Singh Ghagga seems to make a point that just naam simran and no act of gaining knowledge will not help Sikhism and I agree with his point. But I also agree to Bhai Kulbir Singh that naam simran helps to start gaining knowledge and its like a stepping stone. Also I do believe that getting up early in the morning and doing path helps. The reason is related to neuro-biology and how our body is made: will discuss in detail if any body is interested. 


Having said that and having disagreed on the above points with Inder Singh Ghagga, I do have a lot of respect for this person. Please do not call him names just because some so called giani Joginder Singh Vedanti thinks he is not a Sikh. Vedanti is not God, he cannot restrict the freedom of speech of any Sikh. Do you know that Joginder Singh Vedanti has done? He co-edited a text which says the following: -

*1. portrays Guru Hargobind as the twenty-fourth reincarnation [avatar] of [the Hindu god] Vishnu

2. asserts that the Darbar Sahib's four entrances represent not egalitarianism but 'the four arms of Chatarbhuji (a Hindu god).*


..... do you agree with this nonsense?? I think Joginder Singh Vedanti should be excommunicated and not others.

Do you know why *Joginder Singh Vedanti *excommunicated *Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana*? Simple, to take revenge. Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana objected to the above written text and co-edited by Joginder Singh Vedanti and called Vedanti "paapi" so Vedanti simply excommunicated him. Do you think this is right? I have lived in Punjab and I am totally worried about what is happening there. These guys (*Badal, Vedanti et all*) have been in power from ages, 
then why is Punjabi lacking in education? 
Why is Punjab lacking in technological development? 
Why the females count is less as compared to male? 
Why there are dowry related deaths everyday? 
Why Punjab transportation is so bad? 
Why there is no IIT in Punjab? 
Where are the millions of dollars of public money gone that Badal sab was to spend on Anandpur? 
..........................................
....................................etc etc etc...
Have you all asked these questions to yourself and ever tried to find answers? ....please please do it. These people have eaten away the roots of Punjab and Sikhism and people like *Inder Singh Ghagga* and *Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana* are worried about it and they are risking their lives to save the legacy of *Guru Nanak Dev ji*. If you do not agree first read all the articles by Inder Singh Ghagga at www.sikhmarg.org
All articles are excellent, but yours truly highly recommends to start by reading: -

1. *Gurbani Wich Vigyanik Sach *(Scientific Truths in Gurbani) 

2. *Kallar Khet lai kood Jamaya (part-1)*

3. *Kallar Khet lia Kood Jamaya (part-2) *

4. *Tuhanu Gurpurab Mubarak*

5. *Kee Sikha ne 1857 wich gaddari keeti?*
....these all articles are in Punjabi.
(I think if anyone does not understand punjabi, first he/she should learn it and then comment on *Inder Singh Ghagga*. Because if we do not know to read/write Punjabi who are we to comment on Inder Singh Ghagga? If still anybody is lazy to learn Punjabi, I don’t think you should devoid your brain from these great articles, ping me and I shall translate to English the selective ones you want... but this might take some time as I have a hectic schedule, every one of us have)

You can also listen to his book "Sada Beda Ayun Garkia" at:-



*Book      - Sada Beda Ayun Garkia (audio)
*(...listen to the 100s of blasphemous writings that Inder Singh      Ji point and bring to the notice of the Khalsa. Notice, his voice how      frustrated and helpless this true Sikh (Inder Singh Ghagga) is feelings      about fellow Sikhs not understanding the issues that he is raising.)
*Katha      - at some gurudwara in Waterloo*
 Listen what people have written that Inder Singh Ghagga is worried about, and he (Inder Singh Ghagga) wants us to know. For example, one  of the Taksal leader is writing: -
1.We got kachchera ( Sikh undergarment) from Hanuman (...oh god! none of the sikhs is agains this writing??)
2. We have long hair and beards so that we can be pulled out from "nark" by holding our long hair ( what an insult to sikh identity!)
3. Sikhs priest should not eat garlic and onion (what?? these are brahamwad superstitions)
4. A pati-wrata (husband worshipping) women can hold the sun from rising and can travel from Kabul to Goindwal every day, thats not all...she can move her child's cradle in Kabul by just moving her hand while she is in Goindwal.
5. Sant Singh Maskeen calls himself "Brahm Gyani" and our sikhs are listening to his followers blindly.Gurbani clearly mentions who is "Brahm Gyani" how can Sant Singh Maskeen be Brahm Gyani ??
....there are countless other disasterous teaching and writing that people are putting into the head of Sikhs and *Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga ji *have brought them to our notice rightly. I am so much obliged to Inder Singh Ghagga ji. I encourage all true sikhs to read and understand all his points, I am 100% sure not true Sikh can disagree with Inder Singh Ghagga ji( other then a couple of places)

I think *Inder Singh Ghagga* has done great work in these articles and I agree to all parts of these articles. We cannot punish him so hard just because he wrote a couple of points which seem to be wrong, what about 100s and 100s of other points on which he is very right. I feel ashamed of the kind of treatment Sikh youth is giving him. Please read his work before commenting on him. You should use your own concious and thinking to make decision no *Joginder Singh Vedanti* should direct you to do something. You as Sikh (Learner) for life, so learn my friend and learn to respect people who are visionaries. Please post your comments after you read atleast the atricles that I have recommended above. We all should back *Inder Singh Gaggha* (...also make him know that though we are with him we do not agree to some points he made). He certainly does not deserve the disrespect that is being shown against him.

I hope all my fellow Sikhs will raise their conscious to the level that a true Sikh should have. I encourage you to read and increase your knowledge and be a true Khalsa. Moreover, please help stop posting unreasonable stuff like "Inder Ghagga loses debate to young Sikh"... this is not right, did you hear the debate carefully? Kulbir Singh started by saying, " we are here to discuss, there is no winner or loser". The pathic site made a mistake by using "Inder Ghagga loses debate to young Sikh" title on their posting, they went against what Bhai Kubir Singh said in the debate. How can they have dual policies – at one time saying we are not here to win or loose and then post an article with title "Inder Ghagga loses debate to young Sikh" ?? What does it mean, do they think the readers are illiterate or do they think nobody else can understand these topics??

Sat Shri Akaal!

*"Ve Sikha, tu ki Sikha?"*
(Oh my learner! what have you learned?)

Your truly,
Akashdeep Singh Aulakh


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 8, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

Dear Friends,

I have converted to english some 45 points from the 100s of points that Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga have brought to the notice of the Khalsa. He has brought foreward many points, but I am first posting below the points he want us to know from the writings of Taksal.

Following are some of the blunders in Taksal writings: -

Giani Gurbachan Singh (Taksal leader) himself prefixed the following “alankaars” to his name : “Srimaan - Panth Ratan -Vidya Martand – Sant – Giani – Gurbachan Singh Ji.”
Taksal is emphasizing that Guru Nanak Dev ji is from Kush (Ram’s sons) dynasty.
Guru Angad Sahib ji is written to be from the dynasty      of Lakshman’s son.
Guru Amardaas ji is told to be from the dynasty of      Bharat.
Guru Ramdaas ji is written to be from the dynasty of      lahoo.
Guru Har Rai ji got married 8 times.
Bhai Dya Singh (one of the panj pyare) was avatar      (re-incarnation) of lahoo
Bhai Dharam Singh (one of the panj pyare) was avtar      of Panna ji.
Bhai Himmat Singh (one of the panj pyare) was avtar      of Chaturbhuji (four armed)
Bhai Mohkam Singh (one of the panj pyare) was avtar      of Namdev ji
Bhai Sahib Singh (one of the panj pyare) was avtar of      Sain ji
A lady with her “pati vrata shakti” (power gained by worshipping her husband) could travel for Kabul to Goindwal every morning and return back to Kabul every evening. With her same power she could move the cradle of her child in Kabul while she was in Goindwal.
Another lady with the same “pati vrata shakti” stopped the sun from rising and only released the sun when her husband was made alive by the gods again.
Satguru has restricted us from wearing red color      clothes.
Taksal has written that “Mool mantar” is till “Nanak ho si bhi sach” whereas the truth is that “Mool mantar” is till “Gur parsad”.
Baba Sunder Singh’s father Khajan Singh used to read      path standing on one foot so that he could get a son as a boon.
While the child is being born, the nurse (or “dai”) should only be a Sikh. Does not Taksal members and leaders go to hospitals? ... are all nurses Sikh there?
Baba Farid kept meditating in jungles for years and ate the leaves of trees. This is totally false, as I have read Baba Farid was against such acts.
Baba Farid kept hanging in a well for 13 years and      kept meditating.
Guru Gobind Singh ji had a hidden book with them. (why would guru ji hide that from his Khalsa, I think this is being said so that these guys (taksal) can write their own book and later say they have found that hidden book).
Bhai Dya Singh, Dharam Singh , Bhai Himmat Singh, Bhai Mohkam Singh and Bhai Sahib Singh’s head was cut by Guru Gobind Singh ji and put as a giving in front of Guru Granth Sahib. Taksal mentions that this fact is written in hidden book of Guru Gobind Singh ji. (Excellent way to fool innocent people!).
Bhai Himmat Singh Ji ( one of panj pyare ) was cursed      in his last birth. God had told him that       in the form of 10th guru I will cut your head and      release you. (This seems to be a story picked up from Hindu mythology)
When the heads of Panj Pyare were cut, amrit was sprinkled and new heads grew on their shoulders. (Notice the use of “grew”).
Guru ji gave “amrit” to 2 sparrows and those 2 sparrows died fighting with each other. Gurbaksh Singh named sikh ran to honorable mother and she put some patasey (sweets) into amrit only then the amrit became peaceful. (Think it over, the so called mythical man in Taksal writing ran to honorable mother. Does that mean had disbelief in Guru Gobind Singh ji, does this mean Guru ji made some blunder while preparing amrit??)
Panj pyare’s said to Guru Gobind Singh Ji, “Just like Ram Chander honored monkeys, you are honoring us”. ( are we monkeys now?? And that too panj pyare?? This is insult of each sikh)
If you recite Keertan Sohila before sleeping an iron fort will be build around you. (Think, if that is possible then we do not need to lock our houses).
Tobbacco has come into being due to the blood that oozed out of the feet of kaamdhenu Cow. (wow! It will take an idiot to believe this and they are trying to teach this to the Sikhs).
Khalsa should only wear blue, yellow, black or white,      no other color.
Narad muni (from Hindu mythology) gifted Guru Gobind Singh ji with the feathers of a bird, that is why Guru Gobind Singh ji had so many powers.
When Dan Singh asked about long hair of Sikhs, Guru Gobind Singh ji replied that Sikhs have long hair so that they can be pulled out of hell by holding them with these long hair (what an insult of Sikh identity)
Women should not be involved in preparation of amrit.
Women should not perform Gidha in marriages.
The wife of King Hari Sen came to court in a viel, Guru asked, “who is this insane women?” The same time she became insane. (Think, will guru ji make any body insane?)
Bhai Heera Singh died while reciting Gurbani. Chariots (rath) from sky came to take him. ( I feel like laughing, seems like these people have watched Ramanand Sagar’s Ramayan too much)
Kachchera (undergarment), comb etc. should be tied      with a dead person. (Again!, a Hindu superstition).
Sikh priests should not eat garlic and onion.      (What??)
Use desi ghee (oil made from butter) for jyot (candle) for paath and dhoop (fragrance stick) should always be burning. (Very soon, they will release the next version of it – keep everything in a plate and perform aarti of Guru Granth Sahib and put tilak on everyone’s forehead)
Also Taksal has mentioned the list of other such materials needed for paath.(Just like a pandit will give a long list of “pooja samgri”)
After bhog performing aarti is necessary.
Taksal writings mention, you cannot go in front of Guru Granth Sahib wearing pajamas, women should also follow the same rule. (Do you see any logic here??)
To give the proof that he is right guru, 10th      guru recited Gurbani entirely from his memory so that people do not      suspect him. (????)
Sikh Priest should kept “maun vrat”, should not court with his wife. If he suffers from night fall he should go to toiled and then wash his hair. (Oh god! What nonsense?).
Gifting coconut is equal to gifting a head. (well, then why “Sir dhar tali gali meri ayo”??? why not “Nariyal (coconut) dhar tali gali meri ayo” ????)
If paath is recited properly then the inside nut part      of the coconut will become ashes.
Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha has written wrong about Raag Mala. (Dear readers let me inform you and even Giani Gurdit Singh ji rejects Raag Mala as authentic part of Gurbani and he has proved with facts that this has been added by some unauthorized person. Enthusiastic reader is encourage to search the internet for “Mundavani” and related spellings.)
These are just a few points and there are various others that I have yet to translate. This is first draft of the translation written in one go under the effect of tiredness from work and sleep, therefore, pardon my mistakes. I will improve the translations as I get more time and go through revisions. 

Sat Shri Akaal,

-Akashdeep.


----------



## Lionchild (Nov 8, 2006)

Akashdeep Singh said:


> Dear Friends,
> 
> I have converted to english some 45 points from the 100s of points that Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga have brought to the notice of the Khalsa. He has brought foreward many points, but I am first posting below the points he want us to know from the writings of Taksal.
> 
> ...



Thanks, could you show the others that are actually good?


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 8, 2006)

Gurfateh

There have been some symbolism like four faces of Brahma or Brahma entering stem of lotus in Guru Granth Sahib Ji,thye may not be true but are used by Gurus to explain the matter.

so taksal used the same method.Rather just saying all Taksal put thier is ideioticity is more mkaing our faith look like all luthraianinas.

Tyhere are mnay things which are not part of Baba Gurbachan Suingh but his followers like He was not aganst eating meat but but His followers rather made it must as amrit cermony that meat uis kurehit.

Das would just like say somethuing about Mundavini and Raagmala thing.das here actualt posted a file in which content of Madhanal Kamkandala by Alam ,the Sufi9if at all he existed) was givne whicn is 80% unlike our Raagmala.And oldest version of this is also in Kankroli maniscript which is contemporary to Tenth Master.While Raagmala is there in Kartarpuri Beerh.

Saying Gyani Gurdit Singh better then Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Ok can not be treated as perfect.Then who can he say that there is no extra terrestrail thing like UFO do not exsists.

Gurbani talks about life forms on which since is doing rreserach.That could some one from outspace or orgainsim which we could not ussaly precive say Ghosts,Demoans etc.

When scince will prve that,then same Baba Gurbachan Singh will be champioan.

There is not need to rigidy fy articificial imdeogy be it on eith the the side of too much logic,which become absurd or on the other siede too such superstition,which lead to failry tail.


Das is acting more like devils advoacted,if Taksal is beheld as devil over here.Das anyway is emprrssed by good work done by Akashdeep Singh Ji,.


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## kds1980 (Nov 8, 2006)

akashdeep ji thanks for  giving us valuable information.

one of the another thing  that taksal is propagating is that killing a black cow is major sin
| Damdami Taksal |
“The following are all major sins:
a) Killing a Brahmgyani,
b) Killing a black cow
c) Killing or selling your daughter, 
d) Eating from a person who has no moral discipline. Anyone who commits any of these has committed thousands of sins and this egotistical individual will be reprimanded thousands of times."
(SGGSJ Ang 1413)

so does that mean our guru's were differentiationg animals on basis of their colour?


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 8, 2006)

LionChild,

I am trying to understand your query.
1. Are you asking me to put some more points here which are mentioned by Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga and you think those are "actually good"? or
2. Are you telling me that Taksal has written good things and you are asking me to put those things here as well?

If question is 1, my answer:
I have quickly converted some points to English from the original Punjabi writing overnight, sitting with a headache and tension of next days work. As yours truly, mentioned in the previous post, I will improve these and add more as I am able to steel more time from the hectic schedule. 

If question is 2, my short answer is:
If I give you 30 laddos (sweets) and then give you 1 poison pill, what will count? In this advanced world, plots against communities are not visible without deep analysis. These type of blasphamous writings ( as pointed in the Taksal writings by Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga) are disastrous for Sikh philosophy and belief. I recommend you to read the book *"Soft Target"* by *Brian McAndrew* (a Canadian Journalist ) to know how Sikh community in Canada was the target of whole Indian spy agency and they kept fooling not only Sikhs in Canada but also the Canadian police and agency for years. 

Moreover, I believe that to kill the community and religion one has to just kill their separate identity, pride and history. Kill the history, the religion will die on its own. Budhism started in India and has such great numbers of followers outsite India, but why/how was it wiped out from India? Where is Jainism gone? Think on these things my friend. If we don't raise own conscious and do not recognize these plots ( or mistakes, whatever one calls them) our result will be the same as Budhism and Jainism. 

I am in a kind of rush at the present. Please feel free to email me with more questions and I will try to provide more information. 

Sat Shri Akaal,
-Akashdeep


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## Arvind (Nov 8, 2006)

Akashdeep's translations are pretty close to the original articles in Punjabi, which are posted on sikhmarg.com
Anyone knowing Punjabi should read this articles there... very informative and direct language.

Regards.


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 8, 2006)

There are chances that a  translated text often gets unwantedly/unknowingly adulterated with a translators own interpretations.

I agree with Arvind that original Punjabi writing makes a better reading than the translation even if I have tried my best to stay close to the original text. There is always a chance of something getting misinterpretted or getting messed up while translating from one language to the other. Often the original emotions of the writer are very difficult to translate from one language to the other. This happens partly due to a translators own lack of mapping skills to map the right words and emotions from one language to the other and partly due the the inherent limitations of words in the language to which the translation is directed to. 

To summarize, who knows Punjabi should read the original Punjabi articles only.Who don't know to read/write Punjabi should learn it. My translations are for the unmotivated/lazy and for those who are not Sikh and want to know about Sikhism and do not have enough time and resources to learn Punjabi. 

Sat Shri Akaal,
-Akashdeep


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## Archived_member2 (Nov 10, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

I am not sure if Inder Singh Ghagga is excommunicated because he criticized a book written by "Srimaan - Panth Ratan -Vidya Martand - Sant - Giani - Gurbachan Singh Ji."

I feel being a true Sikh and becoming pure (Khalsa) one gets rid of hate too. I am surprised why topics like "Sada BeRa Eao Garkeya" and criticizing other religions including his own are very important in his life. Is he an expert understanding the negativity of religions and sparkling it? Is this the way to recognize true value of human life?

Those who want to praise him should better mention his thankfulness to God for his spiritual experiences if he has any.


Balbir Singh


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## Archived_member2 (Nov 10, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

I am not sure if Inder Singh Ghagga is excommunicated because he criticized a book written by "Srimaan - Panth Ratan -Vidya Martand - Sant - Giani - Gurbachan Singh Ji."

I feel being a true Sikh and becoming pure (Khalsa) one gets rid of hate too. I am surprised why topics like "Sada BeRa Eao Garkeya" and criticizing other religions including his own are very important in his life. Is he an expert understanding the negativity of religions and sparkling it? Is this the way to recognize true value of human life?

Those who want to praise him should better mention his thankfulness to God for his spiritual experiences if he has any.


Balbir Singh


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## Lionchild (Nov 10, 2006)

Akashdeep Singh said:


> There are chances that a  translated text often gets unwantedly/unknowingly adulterated with a translators own interpretations.
> 
> I agree with Arvind that original Punjabi writing makes a better reading than the translation even if I have tried my best to stay close to the original text. There is always a chance of something getting misinterpretted or getting messed up while translating from one language to the other. Often the original emotions of the writer are very difficult to translate from one language to the other. This happens partly due to a translators own lack of mapping skills to map the right words and emotions from one language to the other and partly due the the inherent limitations of words in the language to which the translation is directed to.
> 
> ...



*Just to reflect on this quote: *
What needs to be done is use the available "emotions" in another text or language to be used to describe certain things that can't be translated easily. People often think that gurmakhi is the only "true" script that needs to be used for the SGGS or other texts, be be aware, there are much older and more complex scripts in the world that offer more in depth and emotions to the reader.

While in translation, you are right that the translation will never be the same thing in terms of sound, however, it can be the same in terms of meaning, it does take effort especially for English since its a very hard script to translate into (which is why words like khalsa, waheguru should just stick). with that said, more older and smoother scripts like Chinese, Hebrew, and Sanskrit should be relatively easy to translate into, since it's been proven that older languages are not as "mixed and evolved" as new ones like English.

It is not economical and efficient to have millions of people learn a new language just to understand one message, then to have one message translated into several languages for millions of people to read.

-LC


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

Gurfateh

Boat of some missioanry idealogy is sinking due to fear and haterd.That does not means that actualy bera(boat) of Panth is Grakiya(sunk).


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 11, 2006)

Khalsa Ji, 

Sat Shri Akaal! 

Just finished the translation of Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga's article on Sant Maskeen. 


*Was Giani Sant Singh Maskeen "Vidya Maartand" and "Brahm Giani"?*​ 
             (Author: Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga, translated from 
original Punjabi text by Akashdeep Singh Aulakh)​ 


Vocabulary: -
 Vidya Martand = Sun of Knowledge
 Brahm Giani = He who knows the truth of the universe, he is the creator of the universe, he is formless, yet he is present in every form on this earth. (Shri Sukhmani Sahib)
 Gurmat = the ideology/intelligence given by Sikh spiritual gurus, the Sikh faith.
 Bhog = conclusion ceremony after Paath is complete.
 Paath = the act of reading and understanding the Sikh holy book Guru Granth Sahib. 



 If you keep Maskeen ji's lecture audios on one side and read Osho's (Rajneesh's) books first, you will feel it yourself that Giani Maskeen Ji exactly repeated Osho's words and scarcely talked about Sikh faith.

The management of one gurudwara in England imposed a restriction on Maskeen ji for his lectures in that gurudwara that he should talk only about Gurbani and Gurmat, and not Brahamanical fables and stories during his lecture in that Gurudwara. Maskeen Ji replied, "If you want me to talk only about Gurmat (the knowledge/instruction from the Sikh gurus) then first stop recording all the video films, I cannot talk just about Gurmat while being recorded". By getting recorded talking just about Gurmat, he did not want to disappoint his followers who adhere to Hinduism.

  Against Gurmat, he often makes this claim that fairies come to listen to his lectures and are visible to Maskeen Ji only.

He is already considered to be a millionaire preacher, what good for Gurmat has been done by presenting his family with tens and tens of lakhs of rupees?

At the time of bhog, he was being promoted as "Brahm Giani" with the help of banners put on height. On the other hand, Gurbani only calls "Akaal Purakh" as Brahm Giani and mentions that Brahm Giani never dies.

He was a big fan of mythological gods, the carnal-lust idols of Khajuraho and the nudity ridden stories from the Dasam Granth and kept using Gurbani wrongly to prove the carnal-lust instigating stories that he used to tell.

Maskeen ji has written a book on Gurudwara Management and has distributed this book free of cost. In that book he mentions that the present Gurudwara Management is useless , and the solution that he mentions in the book is that the Gurudwara Management should be given back to "Nirmaliye". Maskeen ji got education from a "Nirmaliya" teacher and he himself is a follower of "Nirmaliya" sect and is a disciple of Baba Shri Chand. These Nirmalye were the people who spread the "Brahmani" beliefs in the Gurudwaras in the past. He talked about people but has never talked about Paanth (Sikh Paanth).

I would have never written this article, if I did not get chance to see the 7 hours of live telecast of Sant Maskeen ji's last rituals and tribute ceremonies on ETC TV channel. It is not possible for one to knowingly gulp a fly in the milk, in the tribute ceremony the following incomplete line from Gurbani was written in bold words in front of Guru Granth Sahib ji -

*"Brahm Gyani sad jeeve nahi marta" *

Watching and reading this shocked my mind and heart. This big blunder? The person who all his life kept speaking on the stages meant for preaching Gurmat, who earned his living by supposedly preaching Gurmat could not teach the essence of Gurbani to his family and his disciple and the likes of Ranjeet Singh Gohar who were managing these ceremonies?. The incomplete line mentioned above has been picked up from 8th ashtpadi of Shri Sukhmani Sahib and has been used by these people in a way to emphasize that Giani Sant Singh Ji Maskeen was "Brahm Giani" and he has not died but is alive because being a "Brahm Giani" he cannot die. Now kindly pay attention to the 8th ashtpadi from where the incomplete line mentioned above has been picked, and note who has been called "Brahm Giani" in Gurbani

*Braham Giani sabh srishat ka karta ||*
* Braham Giani sad jeeve nahin marta ||*
* Braham Giani mukt jugat ka daata ||*
* Braham Giani pooran purakh bidhata ||*
* Braham Giani anaath ka naath ||*
* Braham Giani ka sabh upar haath ||*
* Braham Giani ka sagal aakaar ||*
* Braham Giani aap nirankaar ||*


 There are 7 other paudiyaans of this 8th ashtpadi but summarizing and understanding of just the 8th paudi removes all the doubts about who should be called Brahm Giani. 

  Sentence wise, brief meanings are as follows:-
  1. Brahm Giani is he who has created this whole universe.
  2. Brahm Giani always lives, he never dies. 
  3. Brahm Giani shows the way to salvation, shows the way to live life. 
  4. Brahm Giani is in truth the puran purakh (consummate), and the one who gives birth to all. 
  5. Brahm Giani helps the helpless.
  6. Brahm Giani showers his blessings on everyone. 
  7. All visible forms/shape (the world, the universe, the nature) are images (embodiments) of Brahm Giani.
  8. Brahm Giani is nobody else, but the Supreme Power (God) himself. 

The world knows that since we live in human bodies we all are bound to die one day - all the saints and our own 10 reverent Gurus had to leave as well. Whoever has foolishly tried to convince people to call himself God, he has lost respect in the eyes of intelligent people. If the misuse of above mentioned line was being done by Maskeen ji's family only, it might have been a little less painful, but the preachers who have been taught by Maskeen ji did blunders against Gurbani as well. Extremely painful is the fact that when all these blunders were visibly and noticeably made in such ceremonies, all the 5 heads of our 5 Takhts were present there. The heads of Delhi Gurudwara Management Committee (DGMC) and Shiromani Gurudwara Management committee (SGPC) were all present there. There were other numerous preachers, honorable personalities present on this occasion and none of them could say a word till the end about this self created doctrine. Then should we simply drink this bitter pain and be calm that all these people don’t even have the slightest understanding of Gurbani, or should we think that these people have become so much coward that they could not dare to speak the truth? At least somebody could have said this at sometime, “Saad Sangat! This line means God (IkOnkar) himself, and God (IkOnkar) never dies. We all bodily organisms are bound to destruction.”

  Now let’s consider some of the comments by the responsible people during the 2nd March 2005 tribute ceremony: -

*Role model for Sikh society:* Every invitee come on stage reiterated this again and again on the mike that Maskeen Ji was a role model for your life and were a source of inspiration for the Sikh Panth. Note that in today’s world our reverent “Guru Sahibaan” are seen no more as role models for the Sikh society, Gurbani is no more the source of inspiration for Sikhs. 

*Sun?:* More trumpets of praise were blown on the stage, “Maskeen were like sun of knowledge, he was “Vidya Martand”, he was great Gurbani speaker (kathawachak)” Note that all other shining things do not have their own source of light rather they shine by reflecting the light from Sun. Sun is the only unique power which does not need to borrow light from somewhere else, the shine and heat is of its own. What Maskeen ji told the listeners (sangat), was that knowledge his own? The knowledgeable people from the Sikh society know that this “shine” of knowledge was from the great writers of our Gurbani. The treasure in the form of Gurbani given to us by our Gurus is the sun of knowledge for us. If we use the title of Sun for Maskeen ji, then what words should we us for our Guru Sahibaan? If anybody has doubt then please listen carefully Maskeen ji’s lectures and start reading Osho’s (Rajneesh’s) books. You will find word by word repetition other then a few exceptions here and there. And the difference that seems to be counting is that general Sikh population has not read Osho’s books. 

*Just repeated Osho’s words*: Now if you call Maskeen ji great speaker of Gurbani, then please excuse me, in his 40 years of exposure to public he has not done preaching of Gurbani. If he has spoke of anything other then Osho’s words, they were the poems of Sheik Sadi, Meer, Daag, Mirza Ghalib and Faiz etc. In his 1 hour of lecture one will find very few lines from Gurbani and that too incomplete. He never spoke whole “shabad” from Gurbani. He never remained stationed at any place for 1 or 2 months to do continuous recitation of Gurbani. But yes, he adored the Dasam Granth which is full of obscene stories. He used to tell with great excitation the carnal act ridden stories from Dasam Granth. 

*After the death of the richest story-teller lakhs more were given from the religious funds:* A check worth 50 thousand was given to Maskee ji’s wife as a help from the Delhi Gurudwara Management Committee. In addition to this, a promise was given of no interference in all those places which were in the possession of Maskeen ji’s family. Those properties belonged to the committee and hence were the public religious fund generated properties but were given away to Maskeen ji’s family. Forgetting all ancient scholars and brave Sikhs, the Delhi Gurudwara Management Committee’s head announced to start an award in the name of Maskeen ji. Perhaps these people have accepted Maskeen ji as greatest among all those ancient scholars and brave men.

*Why so much attention for Maskeen ji*?: Shiromani Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee (SGPC) went one step ahead. In memory of Maskeen ji, Bhai Gurdaas award was declared. Reward of one lakh rupees was reserved for Maskeen ji’s wife. Ten lakh rupees were given to Maskeen ji’s family by SGPC right away ......

 The Maskeen ji, whose 3 sons have settled businesses very well in foreign lands, he who had earned enormous money by selling audio cassettes of his lectures, by selling books and by delivering lectures, was given even more money. The money that public is faithfully donating in the Gurudwara’s is being wasted in acts like this; he who is already flourishing was given even more. There were no education centers being opened to train economically weaker Sikh youth in reading/reciting Gurbani rather Maskeen’s family, which was already playing in millions, was distributed with even more big gifts. These type of gifts were never given to the greats of the likes of Professor Sahib Singh, Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, Dr. Ganda Singh, S. Narain Singh (Guru Nanak Mission, Patiala) and others. Why only Maskeen ji was given this great attention? ... It’s worth thinking. 

*Preaching against Gurmat:* There are numerous examples of how Maskeen ji taught wrong meanings of Gurbani, how he told wrong meanings of Gurbani at his own will. Let’s consider a few examples:-

*Naam and Kaam*: - Sadly, in his one hour lecture Maskeen ji clearly represents Satguru ji as lover of “Kok Shastra” (ancient unscientific brahminic work). He used to do the blunder of picking incomplete lines from Gurbani for reasoning. He used to present carnal proofs using these. Note this line picked by him, “Baal kanya ko baap pyara....” (596) and now note his explanation, “A daughter loves her father, and a son loves his mother. Fathers love is more for daughter as compared to his love for son, a mothers love is more towards her son as compared to her love for daughter this is because there is deep attraction between opposite sexes” The place from where Maskeen ji has picked this incomplete line, there the actual subject was that of death, sex is not at all referred there. In reality the complete lines are:-


*Mai baap ko beta neeka, samoorey chatur jawai ||*
*Baal kanniya ko baap piyara bhai ko ati bhai ||*
*Hukam bhaya bahur ghar chodya khinn mahi bhai parai ||*

*Fan of naked idols of Khajuraho:* The nudity ridden carnal-lust instigating idols of the Khajuraho temple in the state of Madhya Pradesh, which were placed there by people who lost their way, are seen as Gurmat by Maskeen Ji. He has openly praised the nudity and the sculptures of these idols and has crossed all limits of morality by using Gurbani wrongfully to provide instances. He has also done the mean act of relating our Gurus with these idols. Our Gurbani has shown us path to live life with self-control. These idols which have been praised by Maskeen Ji break all limits of self-control and represent shameless acts to the public. Yours truly got a chance to see these idols at Khajuraho, the guide of that place was speaking of these indecent carnal-lust ridden idols in the same way as Maskeen ji and was representing them to be the work of great saints. The guide also mentioned that after seeing these idols for a while you will become peaceful and then go inside the temple and have the sight of the God. Yours truly apprehended the guide for his wrongful saying and asked, “You ignorant human! I am an old man of 58 years and watching these idols have made me uneasy and restless. It will take me at least a weak to get normal and peaceful again. What would have been the effect of watching these idols on the young people?” And our Maskeen ji visualized these idols in accordance with Gurmat.

*Can a human become invisible*?: In his stories Maskeen ji tells big lie that, “By reciting Naam human being can become as minute as an atom. He can then go anywhere he wants including Moon, Sun, or Stars in the flash of an eye. He can minimize or enlarge his body as much as he wants” For lines used for instance are the following: -

*Parmanoo parjant aakaasheh deep loye sikhandaneh ||*
*Gachchen nain bharen Nanak, Nanak bina sadhoo na sidhtey ||*

In reality, Guru Arjun Dev ji was well aware of the enormous strength of Atomic power. The lines above said by Guru Arjun Dev ji are saying that a human being can generate enormous power by understanding how Atoms work. Using this strength humans can travel very long distances in very short time. But the abundance of materials and super fast speeds will not be able to provide any happiness to humans, everlasting happiness can will only be achieved from Satguru ji’s orders. 

*Blind praise of Devi/Devtey*: Maskeen ji has spoken of hours and hours in the praise of Raam, Krishan, Brahma and Vishnu. He has been promoting King Ram Chander as in ideal human being, has been praising limitlessly the ancient mythological gods. It is sad that he never remembered those who have been cut into pieces by saws, those innocents who have been hanged, those who had to live in jungles, the big and small Sikh holocausts etc. Hindus gods and goddesses were dear to him but in his entire life he did not describe any principle from the Gurbani. 

*He spread rumors himself that fairies come to listen to his lectures*: On one hand Maskeen ji used to tell good things in his lectures, but on the other hand he used to tell unscientific mock able things very often. Recorded audios and videos are witness to my writing. One lie that he often used to tell on his stages is that, “Fairies and gods come to listen my lectures. They are not visible to anybody but just to me”. Maskeen ji had no regret to tell this one more lie that with faith in Naam a human can become bodyless and within a flash of an eye can go anywhere he wants to. In Maskeen ji’s own words, “I have seen these type of people”. I don’t know what which religion Maskeen ji had been serving with these kinds of lies? Why he himself could not become bodyless with the power of 40 – 50 years of his own Naam faith? Then there would have been no need for automobiles, planes and ships. 

*Our so called jathedars*: What to expect from other to speak against the wrong doings when all 5 jathedars (leaders of 5 Takhats) were also present there. There were those jathedars who just 3 days ago were mud slinging each other, were ready to smash Paggs (turbans) of each other in front of ETC TV channel and our Guru Granth Sahib ji at Akal Takhat. Somebody was engulfed in bribery case, whereas some other was facing the charges of having 3 wives. The same Vedanti, with the connivance of other jathedars, declared Dhanwant Singh Saint not guilty. The government court of Gurdaspur declared this same Dhanwant Singh Saint guilty and pronounced 10 years jail with labor and also fined him with 10 thousand rupees. A jathedar charged with case of taking bribe questioned another jathedar Iqbal Singh (from Patna) for keeping 3 wives. Iqbal Singh raged out of Akal Takhat blaming Satguru ji. In the tribute ceremony of Maskeen ji, the same Iqbal Singh had again become “Singh Sahib” and was preaching people. 


*When Maskeen ji was bound by UK Gurudwara Management:* The South Hall Gurudwara Management in UK bravely bounded Maskeen ji telling, “We want to listen Gurmat from you, we do not want to listen to self created stories less we have to cancel the program”. Maskeen Ji replied, "If you want me to talk only about Gurmat then first stop recording all the video films, I cannot talk just about Gurmat while being recorded". The cameras we shut down and he did very good preaching from Gurbani. With his TV channels programs he seemed to be more worried about pleasing his Hindu followers, and remained step motherly to Sikh philosophy. On these channels he was seen talking more about mythological Hindu gods and goddesses more and less about Guru Sahibaan. 

*Gurudwara Management to Nirmaliye: *Maskeen ji has written a book on Gurudwara management and has distributed this book free of cost. In that book he mentions that the present Gurudwara management is useless, and the solution that he mentions in the book is that the Gurudwara Management should be given back to "Nirmaliye". Maskeen ji got education from a "Nirmaliya" teacher and he himself is a follower of "Nirmaliya" sect and is a disciple of Baba Shri Chand. These Nirmalye were the people who spread the "Brahmani" rituals in the Gurudwaras in the past. Maskeen ji talked about people but has never talked about Paanth (Sikh Paanth).

References:-

1.   POFESSOR INDER SINGH GHAGGA'S ARTICLES
2.   SSI Canada


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: S. Inder Singh Ji Ghagga called to Akal Takhat*

Khalsa Ji, 

Sat Shri Akaal! 

Just finished the translation of Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga's article on Sant Maskeen. 


*Was Giani Sant Singh Maskeen "Vidya Maartand" and "Brahm Giani"?*​ 
             (Author: Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga, translated from 
original Punjabi text by Akashdeep Singh Aulakh)​ 


Vocabulary: -
 Vidya Martand = Sun of Knowledge
 Brahm Giani = He who knows the truth of the universe, he is the creator of the universe, he is formless, yet he is present in every form on this earth. (Shri Sukhmani Sahib)
 Gurmat = the ideology/intelligence given by Sikh spiritual gurus, the Sikh faith.
 Bhog = conclusion ceremony after Paath is complete.
 Paath = the act of reading and understanding the Sikh holy book Guru Granth Sahib. 



 If you keep Maskeen ji's lecture audios on one side and read Osho's (Rajneesh's) books first, you will feel it yourself that Giani Maskeen Ji exactly repeated Osho's words and scarcely talked about Sikh faith.

The management of one gurudwara in England imposed a restriction on Maskeen ji for his lectures in that gurudwara that he should talk only about Gurbani and Gurmat, and not Brahamanical fables and stories during his lecture in that Gurudwara. Maskeen Ji replied, "If you want me to talk only about Gurmat (the knowledge/instruction from the Sikh gurus) then first stop recording all the video films, I cannot talk just about Gurmat while being recorded". By getting recorded talking just about Gurmat, he did not want to disappoint his followers who adhere to Hinduism.

  Against Gurmat, he often makes this claim that fairies come to listen to his lectures and are visible to Maskeen Ji only.

He is already considered to be a millionaire preacher, what good for Gurmat has been done by presenting his family with tens and tens of lakhs of rupees?

At the time of bhog, he was being promoted as "Brahm Giani" with the help of banners put on height. On the other hand, Gurbani only calls "Akaal Purakh" as Brahm Giani and mentions that Brahm Giani never dies.

He was a big fan of mythological gods, the carnal-lust idols of Khajuraho and the nudity ridden stories from the Dasam Granth and kept using Gurbani wrongly to prove the carnal-lust instigating stories that he used to tell.

Maskeen ji has written a book on Gurudwara Management and has distributed this book free of cost. In that book he mentions that the present Gurudwara Management is useless , and the solution that he mentions in the book is that the Gurudwara Management should be given back to "Nirmaliye". Maskeen ji got education from a "Nirmaliya" teacher and he himself is a follower of "Nirmaliya" sect and is a disciple of Baba Shri Chand. These Nirmalye were the people who spread the "Brahmani" beliefs in the Gurudwaras in the past. He talked about people but has never talked about Paanth (Sikh Paanth).

I would have never written this article, if I did not get chance to see the 7 hours of live telecast of Sant Maskeen ji's last rituals and tribute ceremonies on ETC TV channel. It is not possible for one to knowingly gulp a fly in the milk, in the tribute ceremony the following incomplete line from Gurbani was written in bold words in front of Guru Granth Sahib ji -

*"Brahm Gyani sad jeeve nahi marta" *

Watching and reading this shocked my mind and heart. This big blunder? The person who all his life kept speaking on the stages meant for preaching Gurmat, who earned his living by supposedly preaching Gurmat could not teach the essence of Gurbani to his family and his disciple and the likes of Ranjeet Singh Gohar who were managing these ceremonies?. The incomplete line mentioned above has been picked up from 8th ashtpadi of Shri Sukhmani Sahib and has been used by these people in a way to emphasize that Giani Sant Singh Ji Maskeen was "Brahm Giani" and he has not died but is alive because being a "Brahm Giani" he cannot die. Now kindly pay attention to the 8th ashtpadi from where the incomplete line mentioned above has been picked, and note who has been called "Brahm Giani" in Gurbani

*Braham Giani sabh srishat ka karta ||*
* Braham Giani sad jeeve nahin marta ||*
* Braham Giani mukt jugat ka daata ||*
* Braham Giani pooran purakh bidhata ||*
* Braham Giani anaath ka naath ||*
* Braham Giani ka sabh upar haath ||*
* Braham Giani ka sagal aakaar ||*
* Braham Giani aap nirankaar ||*


 There are 7 other paudiyaans of this 8th ashtpadi but summarizing and understanding of just the 8th paudi removes all the doubts about who should be called Brahm Giani. 

  Sentence wise, brief meanings are as follows:-
  1. Brahm Giani is he who has created this whole universe.
  2. Brahm Giani always lives, he never dies. 
  3. Brahm Giani shows the way to salvation, shows the way to live life. 
  4. Brahm Giani is in truth the puran purakh (consummate), and the one who gives birth to all. 
  5. Brahm Giani helps the helpless.
  6. Brahm Giani showers his blessings on everyone. 
  7. All visible forms/shape (the world, the universe, the nature) are images (embodiments) of Brahm Giani.
  8. Brahm Giani is nobody else, but the Supreme Power (God) himself. 

The world knows that since we live in human bodies we all are bound to die one day - all the saints and our own 10 reverent Gurus had to leave as well. Whoever has foolishly tried to convince people to call himself God, he has lost respect in the eyes of intelligent people. If the misuse of above mentioned line was being done by Maskeen ji's family only, it might have been a little less painful, but the preachers who have been taught by Maskeen ji did blunders against Gurbani as well. Extremely painful is the fact that when all these blunders were visibly and noticeably made in such ceremonies, all the 5 heads of our 5 Takhts were present there. The heads of Delhi Gurudwara Management Committee (DGMC) and Shiromani Gurudwara Management committee (SGPC) were all present there. There were other numerous preachers, honorable personalities present on this occasion and none of them could say a word till the end about this self created doctrine. Then should we simply drink this bitter pain and be calm that all these people don’t even have the slightest understanding of Gurbani, or should we think that these people have become so much coward that they could not dare to speak the truth? At least somebody could have said this at sometime, “Saad Sangat! This line means God (IkOnkar) himself, and God (IkOnkar) never dies. We all bodily organisms are bound to destruction.”

  Now let’s consider some of the comments by the responsible people during the 2nd March 2005 tribute ceremony: -

*Role model for Sikh society:* Every invitee come on stage reiterated this again and again on the mike that Maskeen Ji was a role model for your life and were a source of inspiration for the Sikh Panth. Note that in today’s world our reverent “Guru Sahibaan” are seen no more as role models for the Sikh society, Gurbani is no more the source of inspiration for Sikhs. 

*Sun?:* More trumpets of praise were blown on the stage, “Maskeen were like sun of knowledge, he was “Vidya Martand”, he was great Gurbani speaker (kathawachak)” Note that all other shining things do not have their own source of light rather they shine by reflecting the light from Sun. Sun is the only unique power which does not need to borrow light from somewhere else, the shine and heat is of its own. What Maskeen ji told the listeners (sangat), was that knowledge his own? The knowledgeable people from the Sikh society know that this “shine” of knowledge was from the great writers of our Gurbani. The treasure in the form of Gurbani given to us by our Gurus is the sun of knowledge for us. If we use the title of Sun for Maskeen ji, then what words should we us for our Guru Sahibaan? If anybody has doubt then please listen carefully Maskeen ji’s lectures and start reading Osho’s (Rajneesh’s) books. You will find word by word repetition other then a few exceptions here and there. And the difference that seems to be counting is that general Sikh population has not read Osho’s books. 

*Just repeated Osho’s words*: Now if you call Maskeen ji great speaker of Gurbani, then please excuse me, in his 40 years of exposure to public he has not done preaching of Gurbani. If he has spoke of anything other then Osho’s words, they were the poems of Sheik Sadi, Meer, Daag, Mirza Ghalib and Faiz etc. In his 1 hour of lecture one will find very few lines from Gurbani and that too incomplete. He never spoke whole “shabad” from Gurbani. He never remained stationed at any place for 1 or 2 months to do continuous recitation of Gurbani. But yes, he adored the Dasam Granth which is full of obscene stories. He used to tell with great excitation the carnal act ridden stories from Dasam Granth. 

*After the death of the richest story-teller lakhs more were given from the religious funds:* A check worth 50 thousand was given to Maskee ji’s wife as a help from the Delhi Gurudwara Management Committee. In addition to this, a promise was given of no interference in all those places which were in the possession of Maskeen ji’s family. Those properties belonged to the committee and hence were the public religious fund generated properties but were given away to Maskeen ji’s family. Forgetting all ancient scholars and brave Sikhs, the Delhi Gurudwara Management Committee’s head announced to start an award in the name of Maskeen ji. Perhaps these people have accepted Maskeen ji as greatest among all those ancient scholars and brave men.

*Why so much attention for Maskeen ji*?: Shiromani Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee (SGPC) went one step ahead. In memory of Maskeen ji, Bhai Gurdaas award was declared. Reward of one lakh rupees was reserved for Maskeen ji’s wife. Ten lakh rupees were given to Maskeen ji’s family by SGPC right away ......

 The Maskeen ji, whose 3 sons have settled businesses very well in foreign lands, he who had earned enormous money by selling audio cassettes of his lectures, by selling books and by delivering lectures, was given even more money. The money that public is faithfully donating in the Gurudwara’s is being wasted in acts like this; he who is already flourishing was given even more. There were no education centers being opened to train economically weaker Sikh youth in reading/reciting Gurbani rather Maskeen’s family, which was already playing in millions, was distributed with even more big gifts. These type of gifts were never given to the greats of the likes of Professor Sahib Singh, Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, Dr. Ganda Singh, S. Narain Singh (Guru Nanak Mission, Patiala) and others. Why only Maskeen ji was given this great attention? ... It’s worth thinking. 

*Preaching against Gurmat:* There are numerous examples of how Maskeen ji taught wrong meanings of Gurbani, how he told wrong meanings of Gurbani at his own will. Let’s consider a few examples:-

*Naam and Kaam*: - Sadly, in his one hour lecture Maskeen ji clearly represents Satguru ji as lover of “Kok Shastra” (ancient unscientific brahminic work). He used to do the blunder of picking incomplete lines from Gurbani for reasoning. He used to present carnal proofs using these. Note this line picked by him, “Baal kanya ko baap pyara....” (596) and now note his explanation, “A daughter loves her father, and a son loves his mother. Fathers love is more for daughter as compared to his love for son, a mothers love is more towards her son as compared to her love for daughter this is because there is deep attraction between opposite sexes” The place from where Maskeen ji has picked this incomplete line, there the actual subject was that of death, sex is not at all referred there. In reality the complete lines are:-


*Mai baap ko beta neeka, samoorey chatur jawai ||*
*Baal kanniya ko baap piyara bhai ko ati bhai ||*
*Hukam bhaya bahur ghar chodya khinn mahi bhai parai ||*

*Fan of naked idols of Khajuraho:* The nudity ridden carnal-lust instigating idols of the Khajuraho temple in the state of Madhya Pradesh, which were placed there by people who lost their way, are seen as Gurmat by Maskeen Ji. He has openly praised the nudity and the sculptures of these idols and has crossed all limits of morality by using Gurbani wrongfully to provide instances. He has also done the mean act of relating our Gurus with these idols. Our Gurbani has shown us path to live life with self-control. These idols which have been praised by Maskeen Ji break all limits of self-control and represent shameless acts to the public. Yours truly got a chance to see these idols at Khajuraho, the guide of that place was speaking of these indecent carnal-lust ridden idols in the same way as Maskeen ji and was representing them to be the work of great saints. The guide also mentioned that after seeing these idols for a while you will become peaceful and then go inside the temple and have the sight of the God. Yours truly apprehended the guide for his wrongful saying and asked, “You ignorant human! I am an old man of 58 years and watching these idols have made me uneasy and restless. It will take me at least a weak to get normal and peaceful again. What would have been the effect of watching these idols on the young people?” And our Maskeen ji visualized these idols in accordance with Gurmat.

*Can a human become invisible*?: In his stories Maskeen ji tells big lie that, “By reciting Naam human being can become as minute as an atom. He can then go anywhere he wants including Moon, Sun, or Stars in the flash of an eye. He can minimize or enlarge his body as much as he wants” For lines used for instance are the following: -

*Parmanoo parjant aakaasheh deep loye sikhandaneh ||*
*Gachchen nain bharen Nanak, Nanak bina sadhoo na sidhtey ||*

In reality, Guru Arjun Dev ji was well aware of the enormous strength of Atomic power. The lines above said by Guru Arjun Dev ji are saying that a human being can generate enormous power by understanding how Atoms work. Using this strength humans can travel very long distances in very short time. But the abundance of materials and super fast speeds will not be able to provide any happiness to humans, everlasting happiness can will only be achieved from Satguru ji’s orders. 

*Blind praise of Devi/Devtey*: Maskeen ji has spoken of hours and hours in the praise of Raam, Krishan, Brahma and Vishnu. He has been promoting King Ram Chander as in ideal human being, has been praising limitlessly the ancient mythological gods. It is sad that he never remembered those who have been cut into pieces by saws, those innocents who have been hanged, those who had to live in jungles, the big and small Sikh holocausts etc. Hindus gods and goddesses were dear to him but in his entire life he did not describe any principle from the Gurbani. 

*He spread rumors himself that fairies come to listen to his lectures*: On one hand Maskeen ji used to tell good things in his lectures, but on the other hand he used to tell unscientific mock able things very often. Recorded audios and videos are witness to my writing. One lie that he often used to tell on his stages is that, “Fairies and gods come to listen my lectures. They are not visible to anybody but just to me”. Maskeen ji had no regret to tell this one more lie that with faith in Naam a human can become bodyless and within a flash of an eye can go anywhere he wants to. In Maskeen ji’s own words, “I have seen these type of people”. I don’t know what which religion Maskeen ji had been serving with these kinds of lies? Why he himself could not become bodyless with the power of 40 – 50 years of his own Naam faith? Then there would have been no need for automobiles, planes and ships. 

*Our so called jathedars*: What to expect from other to speak against the wrong doings when all 5 jathedars (leaders of 5 Takhats) were also present there. There were those jathedars who just 3 days ago were mud slinging each other, were ready to smash Paggs (turbans) of each other in front of ETC TV channel and our Guru Granth Sahib ji at Akal Takhat. Somebody was engulfed in bribery case, whereas some other was facing the charges of having 3 wives. The same Vedanti, with the connivance of other jathedars, declared Dhanwant Singh Saint not guilty. The government court of Gurdaspur declared this same Dhanwant Singh Saint guilty and pronounced 10 years jail with labor and also fined him with 10 thousand rupees. A jathedar charged with case of taking bribe questioned another jathedar Iqbal Singh (from Patna) for keeping 3 wives. Iqbal Singh raged out of Akal Takhat blaming Satguru ji. In the tribute ceremony of Maskeen ji, the same Iqbal Singh had again become “Singh Sahib” and was preaching people. 


*When Maskeen ji was bound by UK Gurudwara Management:* The South Hall Gurudwara Management in UK bravely bounded Maskeen ji telling, “We want to listen Gurmat from you, we do not want to listen to self created stories less we have to cancel the program”. Maskeen Ji replied, "If you want me to talk only about Gurmat then first stop recording all the video films, I cannot talk just about Gurmat while being recorded". The cameras we shut down and he did very good preaching from Gurbani. With his TV channels programs he seemed to be more worried about pleasing his Hindu followers, and remained step motherly to Sikh philosophy. On these channels he was seen talking more about mythological Hindu gods and goddesses more and less about Guru Sahibaan. 

*Gurudwara Management to Nirmaliye: *Maskeen ji has written a book on Gurudwara management and has distributed this book free of cost. In that book he mentions that the present Gurudwara management is useless, and the solution that he mentions in the book is that the Gurudwara Management should be given back to "Nirmaliye". Maskeen ji got education from a "Nirmaliya" teacher and he himself is a follower of "Nirmaliya" sect and is a disciple of Baba Shri Chand. These Nirmalye were the people who spread the "Brahmani" rituals in the Gurudwaras in the past. Maskeen ji talked about people but has never talked about Paanth (Sikh Paanth).

References:-

1.   POFESSOR INDER SINGH GHAGGA'S ARTICLES
2.   SSI Canada


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## Admin (Nov 11, 2006)

*Admin Note for Your Information: Two similar threads in different forums have been merged into this one. Regards.
*


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 12, 2006)

Gurfateh

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ 
सतजुगि तै माणिओ छलिओ बलि बावन भाइओ ॥ 
satjug tai maani-o chhali-o bal baavan bhaa-i-o. 
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf. 

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ 
त्रेतै तै माणिओ रामु रघुवंसु कहाइओ ॥ 
taraytai tai maani-o raam raghoovans kahaa-i-o. 
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty. 

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥ 
दुआपुरि क्रिसन मुरारि कंसु किरतारथु कीओ ॥ 
du-aapur krisan muraar kans kirtaarath kee-o. 
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans. 

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥ 
उग्रसैण कउ राजु अभै भगतह जन दीओ ॥ 
ugarsain ka-o raaj abhai bhagtah jan dee-o. 
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness. 

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ 
कलिजुगि प्रमाणु नानक गुरु अंगदु अमरु कहाइओ ॥ 
kalijug parmaan naanak gur angad amar kahaa-i-o. 
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das. 

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥ 
स्री गुरू राजु अबिचलु अटलु आदि पुरखि फुरमाइओ ॥७॥ 
saree guroo raaj abichal atal aad purakh furmaa-i-o. ||7|| 
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7|| 

Ang 1390.

Das has many such things seen in Guru Granth Sahib.They are here to preach Gurmat by mythological figures.

so Bhai Akashdeep Singh Ji,

Is this also an interpolation?

If not then why were Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji a sinner?


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 17, 2006)

vijaydeep Singh said:


> Gurfateh
> 
> Das has many such things seen in Guru Granth Sahib.They are here to preach Gurmat by mythological figures.


Veerji, what point are you trying to prove here. I have had hard time understanding your points. I would appreciate if you can kindly be clear, it will save you your time and will save me my as well. 



vijaydeep Singh said:


> Is this also an interpolation?


What interpolation? Can you please elaborate this point for me? My veer, for someone who has gone to that extent to find this example from the internet, it should be very easy to understand what Gurbani is really saying. Then you will not need me to comment on these lines. 



vijaydeep Singh said:


> If not then why were Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji a sinner?


My veer, I'm not here to prove anybody a sinner. If anybody writes or preaches anything against the teachings of our Gurus and tries to present himself as a Sikh as well, then it becomes the duty of you and me to read, evaluate and think and save our precious Gurbani from being adulterated.

To prove anybody a sinner I'll have to be God myself. I just request the Khalsa to educate their minds and think logically. Sikhism has no place for blind illogical faith. If that be right, then why did ever Guru Nanak Dev ji question the superstitions and rituals in which he was born? No my friend, I cannot let the philosophy of Guru Nanak Dev ji die. 

Moreover, to support Baba Gurbachan Singh ji one will have agree that the following writings  and acts are right :-
Giani Gurbachan Singh (Taksal leader) himself prefixed the following “alankaars” to his name : “Srimaan - Panth Ratan -Vidya Martand – Sant – Giani – Gurbachan Singh Ji.”
Taksal is emphasizing that Guru Nanak Dev ji is from Kush (Ram’s sons) dynasty.
Guru Angad Sahib ji is written to be from the dynasty      of Lakshman’s son.
Guru Amardaas ji is told to be from the dynasty of      Bharat.
Guru Ramdaas ji is written to be from the dynasty of      lahoo.
Guru Har Rai ji got married 8 times.
Bhai Dya Singh (one of the panj pyare) was avatar      (re-incarnation) of lahoo
Bhai Dharam Singh (one of the panj pyare) was avtar      of Panna ji.
Bhai Himmat Singh (one of the panj pyare) was avtar      of Chaturbhuji (four armed)
Bhai Mohkam Singh (one of the panj pyare) was avtar      of Namdev ji
Bhai Sahib Singh (one of the panj pyare) was avtar of      Sain ji
A lady with her “pati vrata shakti” (power gained by worshipping her husband) could travel for Kabul to Goindwal every morning and return back to Kabul every evening. With her same power she could move the cradle of her child in Kabul while she was in Goindwal.
Another lady with the same “pati vrata shakti” stopped the sun from rising and only released the sun when her husband was made alive by the gods again.
Satguru has restricted us from wearing red color      clothes.
Taksal has written that “Mool mantar” is till “Nanak ho si bhi sach” whereas the truth is that “Mool mantar” is till “Gur parsad”.
Baba Sunder Singh’s father Khajan Singh used to read      path standing on one foot so that he could get a son as a boon.
While the child is being born, the nurse (or “dai”) should only be a Sikh. Does not Taksal members and leaders go to hospitals? ... are all nurses Sikh there?
Baba Farid kept meditating in jungles for years and ate the leaves of trees. This is totally false, as I have read Baba Farid was against such acts.
Baba Farid kept hanging in a well for 13 years and      kept meditating.
Guru Gobind Singh ji had a hidden book with them. (why would guru ji hide that from his Khalsa, I think this is being said so that these guys (taksal) can write their own book and later say they have found that hidden book).
Bhai Dya Singh, Dharam Singh , Bhai Himmat Singh, Bhai Mohkam Singh and Bhai Sahib Singh’s head was cut by Guru Gobind Singh ji and put as a giving in front of Guru Granth Sahib. Taksal mentions that this fact is written in hidden book of Guru Gobind Singh ji. (Excellent way to fool innocent people!).
Bhai Himmat Singh Ji ( one of panj pyare ) was cursed in his last birth. God had told him that in the form of 10th guru I will cut your head and release you. (This seems to be a story picked up from Hindu mythology)
When the heads of Panj Pyare were cut, amrit was sprinkled and new heads grew on their shoulders. (Notice the use of “grew”).
Guru ji gave “amrit” to 2 sparrows and those 2 sparrows died fighting with each other. Gurbaksh Singh named sikh ran to honorable mother and she put some patasey (sweets) into amrit only then the amrit became peaceful. (Think it over, the so called mythical man in Taksal writing ran to honorable mother. Does that mean had disbelief in Guru Gobind Singh ji, does this mean Guru ji made some blunder while preparing amrit??)
Panj pyare’s said to Guru Gobind Singh Ji, “Just like Ram Chander honored monkeys, you are honoring us”. ( are we monkeys now?? And that too panj pyare?? This is insult of each sikh)
If you recite Keertan Sohila before sleeping an iron fort will be build around you. (Think, if that is possible then we do not need to lock our houses).
Tobbacco has come into being due to the blood that oozed out of the feet of kaamdhenu Cow. (wow! It will take an idiot to believe this and they are trying to teach this to the Sikhs).
Khalsa should only wear blue, yellow, black or white,      no other color.
Narad muni (from Hindu mythology) gifted Guru Gobind Singh ji with the feathers of a bird, that is why Guru Gobind Singh ji had so many powers.
When Dan Singh asked about long hair of Sikhs, Guru Gobind Singh ji replied that Sikhs have long hair so that they can be pulled out of hell by holding them with these long hair (what an insult of Sikh identity)
Women should not be involved in preparation of amrit.
Women should not perform Gidha in marriages.
The wife of King Hari Sen came to court in a viel, Guru asked, “who is this insane women?” The same time she became insane. (Think, will guru ji make any body insane?)
Bhai Heera Singh died while reciting Gurbani. Chariots (rath) from sky came to take him. ( I feel like laughing, seems like these people have watched Ramanand Sagar’s Ramayan too much)
Kachchera (undergarment), comb etc. should be tied      with a dead person. (Again!, a Hindu superstition).
Sikh priests should not eat garlic and onion.      (What??)
Use desi ghee (oil made from butter) for jyot (candle) for paath and dhoop (fragrance stick) should always be burning. (Very soon, they will release the next version of it – keep everything in a plate and perform aarti of Guru Granth Sahib and put tilak on everyone’s forehead)
Also Taksal has mentioned the list of other such materials needed for paath.(Just like a pandit will give a long list of “pooja samgri”)
After bhog performing aarti is necessary.
Taksal writings mention, you cannot go in front of Guru Granth Sahib wearing pajamas, women should also follow the same rule. (Do you see any logic here??)
To give the proof that he is right guru, 10th guru recited Gurbani entirely from his memory so that people do not suspect him. (????)
Sikh Priest should kept “maun vrat”, should not court with his wife. If he suffers from night fall he should go to toiled and then wash his hair. (Oh god! What nonsense?).
Gifting coconut is equal to gifting a head. (well, then why “Sir dhar tali gali meri ayo”??? why not “Nariyal (coconut) dhar tali gali meri ayo” ????)
If paath is recited properly then the inside nut part      of the coconut will become ashes.
Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha has written wrong by Raag Mala. (Dear readers let me inform you and even Giani Gurdit Singh ji rejects Raag Mala as authentic part of Gurbani and he has proved with facts that this has been added by some unauthorized person. Enthusiastic reader is encourage to search the internet for “Mundavani” and related spellings.)
Veerji, from someone who is spending considerable time on the internet I expect I don't have to say same things over and over again. Please read them yourself and try to be honest with your heart. Then you will not need anybody like me. 

As far as I am concerned I have no doubt that these writings are wrong and should not be fed to the brains of innocent people. And my veer please do not give me examples from "Raagmala" and "Dasam Granth". Thinking logically you yourself will come to know.
Search for "Mundavani" and I hope you know what this word means and where it is written, and why it is written there? This will clear your mind on Raagmala issue.
If the Dasam Granth was complete at the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, then Guru Gobind Singh ji would have themselves asked us to follow it.
Keep up the great job my friend! with the hard work that you are doing, truth cannot evade you forever. 

Sat Shri Akaal,
-Akashdeep


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 18, 2006)

Gurfateh

Dear Brother,

Das would like to say that as verse given by Das above were more to use preach Panth to non Panthic people by thier own vocabulary so such things were in Guru Granth Sahib Ji,else term Wahiguru or Kartar would only been used and not Allah or Kareem or say Mata or Ram.

Das hope you rhave got the point.

Then Taksal used term Baba and not what you say about Sant Ji.Say if some one use term Guru with Kala Afghana Ji as Sant Nirnakari do with thier Baba,then it may not be fualt of Kala Afghana Ji.

Just being purist of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and that also being influnce of personal worshiping protestants(they worship Lord Jesus) will make us person worshipper as we find Guru as living Human in Guru Granth Sahib,while Guru is living but Akal in Guru Granth Sahib.

Das is not from Taksal but some issues which he said for Taksal are contested By Taksal or Sanatan Sikhs also.some old things were there and we could change there but some things like accosiating Gurus or Sikhs with old mytholocigacl things is more to bring those following Mythology to Panth.Some Sikhs say that Sabre used for Baptism was of Hazrat Ali(Razi),it is there that mnay swrods of Tenth Master had Allah writtan over them and Guru did converted Muslims to Gurmat and thier swords were used.

So not a big thing.Likewise Gurmat what das feels in not Anti to polygamy as it is neraer to Islam.

Then coming to Mudavini das has read the oldest work of Alam and reached the conclusion which Bhai Vir Singh reached.

so there is thread started by Sister Harsimart Kaur Ji and let us discuss here and now.We do not have to fabriacte our past or see Truth as we want Truth to be as we want it to be.

Then to Dasham Granth das has threads and there we can discuss it further.

to answer the question did Guru asked us to follow Granth or not.

Have you sen the Rahit Nammah Bhai DeSa Singh ji and what Guru tells in there?Das is sure that you ahve not so you raised this question.


Yet das is aware that Dasham Granth is more a collection of about Threee Granths and within these Threee Granth we are told by Guru to folow them.In Rahit Nammah Bhai Daya Singh and Bhai Gurbax Singh we have more tihngs to support the queestion.

It is strange that the source which state that Dasham Granth is by Tenth Master are OK,when it comes to prove that Tenth Master gave Guruship to Guru Granth Sahib but authanticity of the same become blurred when we talk of Bani of Tenth Master being given in there.

main thing is Truth is not the Creation but manfester in creation Akal.

without understadning our God,it is useless to talk about scripture and that God is lmitless and we tend to act as we have limteed that god in scripture creatred by the same.

hope to listen more from you Brother.


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 18, 2006)

vijaydeep Singh said:


> Then Taksal used term Baba and not what you say about Sant Ji.Say if some one use term Guru with Kala Afghana Ji as Sant Nirnakari do with thier Baba,then it may not be fualt of Kala Afghana Ji.


Dear brother, as per my knowledge, the book *"Gurbani Paath Darshan"* has been written by *Gurbachan Singh ji* himself so who added those adjectives?. Even if we put aside the issue of adding so many adjectives to own name-what about other things that are written in that book? Who wrote those useless things in the book *"Gurbani Paath Darshan"*? I cannot believe a person who has the understanding of Gurbani can write those things. And now leave that also aside and read *"Gurmukh Prakash". *I am pretty sure you will never have doubt again on the points raised by Prof. Inder Singh.

I dont understand why its so hard to see those wrong doings??

My veer, if you still have doubts I can give you the page numbers in those books and you can go and see them yourself.



vijaydeep Singh said:


> Just being purist of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and that also being influnce of personal worshiping protestants(they worship Lord Jesus) will make us person worshipper as we find Guru as living Human in Guru Granth Sahib,while Guru is living but Akal in Guru Granth Sahib.


 ?????....huh!. what?



vijaydeep Singh said:


> Das is not from Taksal but some issues which he said for Taksal are contested By Taksal or Sanatan Sikhs also.some old things were there and we could change there but some things like accosiating Gurus or Sikhs with old mytholocigacl things is more to bring those following Mythology to Panth.


.....??????



vijaydeep Singh said:


> Some Sikhs say that Sabre used for Baptism was of Hazrat Ali(Razi),it is there that mnay swrods of Tenth Master had Allah writtan over them and Guru did converted Muslims to Gurmat and thier swords were used.


.....and now my Veer go ahead and read the books written by those people whom the Sikhs drove away from Punjab, I am pretty sure they will write things even more fascinating. 



vijaydeep Singh said:


> So not a big thing.Likewise Gurmat what das feels in not Anti to polygamy as it is neraer to Islam.


....??? Veerji, Gurmat accepts what is right and logical without caring who said that and from which faith that is coming. At the same time Gurmat rejects what is superstition and useless ritual regardless what faith it belongs to. Therefore, I do not see any point in measuring the nearness or farness of Gurmat from anything else.

...... Useless effort to bring Polygamy to Sikhism, have you seen the plight of Muslim women who are suffering due to this polygamy thing? Go and ask those women if they themselves believe in polygamy. In fact, years back in India, the muslim women were asking the Indian Government to mend the laws and ban polygamy (which is allowed only to muslims in India). I forgot that documentary's name which was specially compiled by a social worker, otherwise I could have cited the name for your reference. 

In todays world, not a single man can do justice with more then one wife in terms of discharging his duties towards them. Do you think Gurbani will ever  promote injustice to women???.... ah pardon me!

Can you jusfity here what you mean regarding polygamy?



vijaydeep Singh said:


> Then coming to Mudavini das has read the oldest work of Alam and reached the conclusion which Bhai Vir Singh reached.


..well my friend that is your own conclusion. 



vijaydeep Singh said:


> so there is thread started by Sister Harsimart Kaur Ji and let us discuss here and now.


..I hope to be there and hope to find time to be on each and every thread some day.



vijaydeep Singh said:


> We do not have to fabriacte our past or see Truth as we want Truth to be as we want it to be.


????. who is fabricating the past? and how?



vijaydeep Singh said:


> Then to Dasham Granth das has threads and there we can discuss it further.


No logical thinking Sikh will ever agree that their beloved Guru Gobind Singh ji ever wrote the whole part of Dasam Granth. I have immense respect and love for Guru Gobind Singh ji. I cannot believe anybody who has the slighest understanding of Sikhism and Guru Gobind Singh ji can ever think that all what Dasam Granth has in it today was written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. .....Forgive me please! .....I am totally hurt by what people are doing to Guru Gobind Singh ji. Use some brain my brothers! 



vijaydeep Singh said:


> to answer the question did Guru asked us to follow Granth or not.Have you sen the Rahit Nammah Bhai DeSa Singh ji and what Guru tells in there?Das is sure that you ahve not so you raised this question.


?????....Again, I do not believe all part of Dasam Granth is Guru Gobind Singh ji's work.



vijaydeep Singh said:


> It is strange that the source which state that Dasham Granth is by Tenth Master are OK,when it comes to prove that Tenth Master gave Guruship to Guru Granth Sahib but authanticity of the same become blurred when we talk of Bani of Tenth Master being given in there.


Convince me. 



vijaydeep Singh said:


> main thing is Truth is not the Creation but manfester in creation Akal.


what??



vijaydeep Singh said:


> without understadning our God,it is useless to talk about scripture and that God is lmitless and we tend to act as we have limteed that god in scripture creatred by the same.


Again.....what are you trying to say??
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Sat Shri Akaal,
-Akashdeep

*"A lot of reading without contemplation will not be of any use, mind
 will still be thoughtless. What good is the water for the roots, which
 cannot be absorbed. And a thoughtless mind is like a balloon, wanders
 aimlessly and eventually falls down."

*


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## Gurmeet Singh Sandhu (Nov 18, 2006)

Gur Fateh ji,
After reading the hukam nama This is a news for me that Jathedar akal takhat has droped the word or title "vedanti" by his name. It was my curiousty to know why Jathedar Joginder singh of Akal takhat was so proud to be called vedanti.I am new to this form and do'nt have much knoweldge about Prof. ghaga's writings.As per news published in The Tribune and quated by you Prof. Ghaga and his assocites are not given a chance by Akal takhat to explain their position. I think time has come Akal Takhat should allow an open debate  to sort out who is right and who is wrong.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 21, 2006)

Gurfateh

Well first thing das would like to das over here is that some time pubilshers add the title then writer himssel as we talk about Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa but das will open as new thread to talk about all issues raised by Bhai Akash Deep SinghJi.

Bhai sahib asked that he wants to convinced that Guruship was only Givne to Guru Granth Sahib Ji after Tenth Master left to Sachkhand and not that Sabad is refred as Guru since First Master

OK.

Kinldy read Sidh Gost.

and porve authanticity of the the text which says that Guru did this while going to Sachkhand as most of such text says this also apporove Bani of Tenth Master did exists.

And again in Sarbloh Granth Guru says that Guru Granth Sahib Ji are Guru.As per Sau Sakhi it was Charan Pahil which was given before Khande Bate Das Pahil and in that corner of Guru Granth Sahib's Rumala was dipped in water and that water was used for Baptism.So Charan of Guru was more symbol of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Tenth Master gave Guruship to Khalsa once it was formed and there for took baptism from 5 beloved one.If this is not authanctic then sources which are same say Suraj Prakash also talk of Guru's giving Guruship to Guru Granth Sahib While going to Sachkhand.so we can not one thing be authantic to suit our idolgy and same thing unathatic while in other issues.

So again as we see that in Chamkaur Garhi and Dadudwara Guru obyed Panth Khalsa.So while going to Sachkhnad it was not passing the Guruship but reaffiring the Faith in Guruship of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


Then coming to title of the thread.


Das requests admin or modrators that this title das did not give,Das can never use such terms with low respects to Great Sikh like S. Inder Singh Ji Ghugga.So kinlgy the name of the scholar be writtan with respect as for Das he(S. Ghugga Ji) are gem of Sikh and like S. Kala Afghana Ji should be readdmiited to Panth.

Das finds himself on thier side and does has some difrreances and critisicm das does is more to let them have good pulling up soax and let them improve thier performances.

New thread is posted below.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/14617-accuistions-made-upon-baba-gurbachan-singh.html


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 21, 2006)

vijaydeep Singh said:


> Das finds himself on thier side and does has some difrreances and critisicm das does is more to let them have good pulling up soax and let them improve thier performances.



My veer, whose performance you want to improve?

-Akashdeep


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 22, 2006)

Gurfateh




Akashdeep Singh said:


> My veer, whose performance you want to improve?
> 
> -Akashdeep


Das finds that not only to Gurmat but to whole mankind ideolgy of Missioanries is a blesssng from Akal.Yet they are all the more stuck up in pulling other Sikhs leg.

In Islam and Chrisitianty more preaching is done to converts non Muslims or non Christians to thier faith then pulling other brthern legs who may not agree to them in interpetaion of thier faith.

likewise they lack factor Dynamic(they are and can be easyly intimedated by some Sikh groups who are bullies.Many time das saw that speaking of Kala 
Afghana Sahib stopped forceable and he could not do any thing.Das did tell Taksal that they should not be a part of such things)But factor dynamic and other leadership skills are needed in them.

So to imporve thier proformances and utilise the potential in them Das resotres to thiewr positive critism.In Gurbani,we have Slander even refered as  soap to clean the wrong things.So das has dream that one day whole Panth will be united and intellect of Missioaries also will be utilised.And Akal's willing this will happen while we have diversity of opinions.


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## Randip Singh (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated*



plamba said:


> Hyper-linked version with photos:
> 
> The Sikh Times - News and Analysis - Inder Singh Ghagga Excommunicated
> 
> ...


 
At last a balanced articles on this issue.

*I think Panthic Weekly should be excommunicated forthwith for priniting outright LIES and slandering this Professors name.*


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 29, 2009)

Translation of that bhatt swaya is wrong. We should ban use of copy paste aarths as tehy are usually wrong. I will not post proper aarths at the moment here because I didn't type them up.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jun 29, 2009)

Gurfateh
By banning, we are repeating what people occupying Akal Takhat Sahib are doing.

We should give the proper answer if wrong interpretation is done. Then there is another thing, one word may have various meanings.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 29, 2009)

Yes, a word can mean several things but there is a limit to what it could mean. You can't use the word tobacco and say it means mango juice.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 29, 2009)

I've seen the debates, and I really can't see what in wrong with what Inder Singh Ghahgga is saying. It's his opinion.


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## The Khalsa Fauj (Jun 29, 2009)

Ghagga never said halal is allowed in the first place. He has accepted his mistake to write that Guru Nanak ate hahal and has fixed that portion in his book. He also fixed the part abut naam simran. I respect Ghagga for accepting his mistake and changing unlike others who want to Hindufy Sikhi.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 29, 2009)

THATS TRUE GURMUKHTA.
and Ghaghha showed his true colours...He is MAN ENOUGH to admit his mistake...what abaut "Paath darshan ?? are the Taksalis going to make corrections ??
Prof Darshan Singh ragi also changed his mind....as is his right...but he is condemned for it...his OLD videos are repeatedly highlighted...


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