# Sikhism : An Old Wine In - New Bottle



## vinod (May 6, 2007)

*Sikhism is an Adoption of Hinduism*

I consider sikhism as an alteration and bady of Hindu religion with nothing original in it.It is a copy of the Hindu religion. 
The following article has been taken from one of ongoing post.
*Guru Nanak’s Doctrine of Divine Order[**Dr. Dalvinder Singh Grewal*]*​* _HM-210 Focal Point, Sukhdev Nagar, Ludhiana 141001._

Concepts of Divine Order (_hukam_) and Divine Grace (_nadar_) are the charasteristic contributions of Adi Granth. Hukam, a Persian term, meaning command or decree or direction, sanction or permission, occurs in Guru Nanak’s hymns in several different - but related - connotations such as Divine law, Divine Will, or Divine Pleasure (_bhana_, _raza_); Divine _fiat_ (_farman_); Divine power or Divine creation (_qudrat_). Guru Nanak has used the word _hukam_ for Divine constitution under which this universe and nature were created and developed and functioning. Guru Nanak declares in Japuji that “all forms, beings, great and small, the pain and pleasure, bounties and wanderings are indescribable and there is nothing outside the realm of _hukam_.” All the worlds, all the continents and all the beings of universe, are driven by God according to His will, and His pen flows to record their deeds. All the creation works under the _Hukam_ or the Law of God. These laws are true for all times and work in all the three fields, i.e. physical, moral and spiritual. These laws bind all the creatures in the world.

*Doctrine of Divine Grace:* Divine Grace (_nadar_) is another characteristic concept of Guru Nanak. Meaning of Divine Grace are different in Guru Nanak’s hymns from its usage in Christian theology, where the stress is upon its universal nature and absolute sufficiency for salvation. In Guru Nanak’s hymns _nadar_ is related to divine pleasure (_raza_) and somewhat close to “election”: of neo-Calvinist theology, except that it leaves no scope for individulal’s free will. It is through _nadar_ (God’s Grace) that one secures the threshold of salvation (_mukti_). Though we get our body according to our _karma_, the release can only be obtained through the Grace of the Lord. The Grace of God begins with our acceptance of the True path in life. The amount of the Grace of the Lord necessitates our accomplishments on the right path. In fact, the Grace of the Lord is not the result of any whim of the Lord; it begins and matures with the beginning and maturity of our _dharma_.

*Doctrine of Cause and Effect:* The law of cause and effect works in every field. As per Newton’s Law, “Every action has equal and opposite reaction.” It is however different in Guru Nanak’s words. He says, “He is the Creator and the destroyer and He himself puts every one on various jobs.” He Himself is the doer and Himself the cause. Nothing happens without His order. A being performs His actions as per the directions of the Lord. A being gets birth into a form of life accroding to the _karma_ of his previous life. He can improve his _karma_ by doing good deeds. He loses the purpose of life if he is lost into _maya_ and self-interest. He however can attain his purpose if he keeps off from maya and remains attached with the Lord. He can remain attached with the Lord by keeping his soul, mind and body tuned to Him through Naam which is the only way to attain salvation, i.e. to save one self from the cycle of births and deaths. Naam can be obtained from the Guru and a person can merge into Him by True Guru’s Grace.

*Doctrine of Dharma (Ethical Conduct): *The man’s final assessment and approval before God will depend entirely on his deeds. Activity is the keynote of Guru’s teachings. The real objective of a being is to reach the ultimate but it forgets its pass in the worldly evils and fails in attainment of the Lord. The prominent vices connected with the body are cruelty, theft and sexual hunger. The Gurus and saints believed in two kinds of actions, i.e. good or bad. The doer cannot escape from the effect of his deeds. While good deeds are fruitful, the bad actions get due punishments. The Charvaka hedonism has been rejected outright by the Guru. The virtue or righteousness exhibited through body, speech and mind is known as _Dharma_. In no religious system is the emphasis on ethical conduct greater than as laid down in the Adi Granth where ‘truthful living or conduct has been declared higher than Truth itself’. Sweetness and humility are the essence of all virtues. Life is most fruitful when we meet those who practice humility and gentleness even while they are strong. The virtuous deeds are the tree, God’s Name its branches, faith its flowers and the Divine knowledge its fruit. To achieve sublimity one should make truth his fasting, contentment his pilgrimage, cognition and meditation his ablution, compassion his deity and forgiveness his rosary. Very few have the right way their loin-cloth, consciousness their sacred enclosure, good deeds their frontal mark and the Lord’s love their food. He who eats what he earns through his earnest labour, and from his hand gives some in charity, alone knows the true way of life.

The Gurus ‘never forgot that there is only one God of all the beings’. For him none is born great, none is inferior to the other; the walls and prejudices created in society are only man made. He advocates the removal of all social barriers between man and man, and man and woman. He has totally rejected the division of _varnas_ (castes) and _Ashrams_ (stages of life) enjoined by Hindu _Shashtras_. He believes in universal brotherhood and propagates love amongst all beings.

*My observations are as follows:*

The doctrine of Grace of God and is part and parcel of almost all the religions on the earth.Law of Karma is an esential doctrine peculiar to HInduism.It has been copied by sikhs.Even the constitution of India does not recognise it as a separate religion.The sikhs is a closed sect living miles away from reality.They have never contributed to any of the economic activity, scientific activity and advancements.All that they do is to be a load on society.

There is no name of sikh in politics except in the regional politics of Punjab.Why so?It is only because the religion has become a burden on the individuals who cannot practice it. 

In hindu's the class system originated way back Manu's days and had specific purpose and that suited that time.Each person of a society had some job to do.The system worked well.The philosphy had worked well.

The sikh guru's have quoited that Vedas should be rejected and all one should do is to remember Him all the time.If one follows this line of action this world will come to an end. Sikh religion in the end is a failure.

Let us look at the significance of keeping a beard.It looks horrible to see a sikh man when he is not clad properly.People avoid sikhs in India because of they look unclean and untidy .What ius the big significance of keeping the hairs that give them unkempt look.

Sikhs could not have their Guru's saved from the Hand of Muslims.How can they save themselves. Most of the affluent families have already starting running to Europe and USA and the poor sikhs are left in India to face the music of poverty.There is no sharing of wealth amongst the sikhs.I do not think that this religion will have any supporter on the earth after a few centuries and will die its own death because of 

1.Dis respect of Guru's order.  5 ks' especially in Punjab most of the sikhs do not keep the hair.those left trim .
2.Wearing turban is a difficult task.
3.The youngs are disillusioned.
4.Most of them have even altered their names.
5.The sikhs who have migrated are not helping their indian relatives at all.
6.Sikhs have nothing to feel proud of the turbans and the beards.
The morale of the kids is down.Mere gurbani will make them faqeers.Is there any name who have ever obtained salvatiuion.None 
Any takers


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## simpy (May 6, 2007)

*Re: To see without eyes to hear without ears*

*Respected Vinod Ji,*

*welcome to the forum and please keep on helping us finding our faults....*

*endless thanks to you for evaluating the Sikhs.*

*The Sikhs know what they are, What the Gurus are telling them and what they should do as well.....*

*anyways endless thanks to you for pointing out all the shortcomings, i hope readers will get an idea now where they are lacking  if any!*

*many endless thanks to you for the effort and time you spent on your probe and investigation and presentation.......*


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## japjisahib04 (May 7, 2007)

*Re: To see without eyes to hear without ears*



vinod said:


> *Sikhism is an Adoption of Hinduism*
> 
> IThe sikhs is a closed sect living miles away from reality.They have never contributed to any of the economic activity, scientific activity and advancements.All that they do is to be a load on society.
> 
> ...


What reality are you talking. Believing in superisition, sati pratha, worshipping stones, havans, jadu tuna, descriminating people by birth etc. etc. Thank God Gurbani leads us to live with logic and not blind faith. Well with all eight hundred millions of population, you could only find a sikh at least to lead you as Prime Minister. And the Indian laws does not permit manu's descrimination of humanity.
Grow the beard and see the eternal bliss. Our Gurus have taught us how to live and we are very happy. Regards Sahni Mohinder


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## vinod (May 13, 2007)

*Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Sikhism is a religion started by Baba nanak .The entire philosphy of sikhism is based on the criticism of Hindu/muslim and christianity as per the translations of Granth Sahib as offered by Sahib singh and many others. 

1.AT many places the concept of incarnation and soul liberation have been stated.Why? Did the Guru not have any other thought in mind.

2.This is a copy of Hindu's philosphy Of Karma and incarnation.How come this was stated to be the philosphy of Sikhs? 

3.The transdental nature and philosphy of immanence was the need and was incorporated. What was the big need of religion at all, it should have been a 'sect' amogst HIndus only and these people should have been trained to look after the interest of the country.

4. The philosphy of Naam Daan is a secret and is not meant for ordinary person. Baba ji kept the secret to himself and became the indirect rweason of flourishing of Radhasoami ,who claim tohave visited sachkhand many times.

The following will reveal the truth.

*Guru Nanak’s Doctrine of Divine Order[**Dr. Dalvinder Singh Grewal*]*​* _HM-210 Focal Point, Sukhdev Nagar, Ludhiana 141001._

Concepts of Divine Order (_hukam_) and Divine Grace (_nadar_) are the charasteristic contributions of Adi Granth. Hukam, a Persian term, meaning command or decree or direction, sanction or permission, occurs in Guru Nanak’s hymns in several different - but related - connotations such as Divine law, Divine Will, or Divine Pleasure (_bhana_, _raza_); Divine _fiat_ (_farman_); Divine power or Divine creation (_qudrat_). Guru Nanak has used the word _hukam_ for Divine constitution under which this universe and nature were created and developed and functioning. Guru Nanak declares in Japuji that “all forms, beings, great and small, the pain and pleasure, bounties and wanderings are indescribable and there is nothing outside the realm of _hukam_.” All the worlds, all the continents and all the beings of universe, are driven by God according to His will, and His pen flows to record their deeds. All the creation works under the _Hukam_ or the Law of God. These laws are true for all times and work in all the three fields, i.e. physical, moral and spiritual. These laws bind all the creatures in the world.

*Doctrine of Divine Grace:* Divine Grace (_nadar_) is another characteristic concept of Guru Nanak. Meaning of Divine Grace are different in Guru Nanak’s hymns from its usage in Christian theology, where the stress is upon its universal nature and absolute sufficiency for salvation. In Guru Nanak’s hymns _nadar_ is related to divine pleasure (_raza_) and somewhat close to “election”: of neo-Calvinist theology, except that it leaves no scope for individulal’s free will. It is through _nadar_ (God’s Grace) that one secures the threshold of salvation (_mukti_). Though we get our body according to our _karma_, the release can only be obtained through the Grace of the Lord. The Grace of God begins with our acceptance of the True path in life. The amount of the Grace of the Lord necessitates our accomplishments on the right path. In fact, the Grace of the Lord is not the result of any whim of the Lord; it begins and matures with the beginning and maturity of our _dharma_.

*Doctrine of Cause and Effect:* The law of cause and effect works in every field. As per Newton’s Law, “Every action has equal and opposite reaction.” It is however different in Guru Nanak’s words. He says, “He is the Creator and the destroyer and He himself puts every one on various jobs.” He Himself is the doer and Himself the cause. Nothing happens without His order. A being performs His actions as per the directions of the Lord. A being gets birth into a form of life accroding to the _karma_ of his previous life. He can improve his _karma_ by doing good deeds. He loses the purpose of life if he is lost into _maya_ and self-interest. He however can attain his purpose if he keeps off from maya and remains attached with the Lord. He can remain attached with the Lord by keeping his soul, mind and body tuned to Him through Naam which is the only way to attain salvation, i.e. to save one self from the cycle of births and deaths. Naam can be obtained from the Guru and a person can merge into Him by True Guru’s Grace.

*Doctrine of Dharma (Ethical Conduct): *The man’s final assessment and approval before God will depend entirely on his deeds. Activity is the keynote of Guru’s teachings. The real objective of a being is to reach the ultimate but it forgets its pass in the worldly evils and fails in attainment of the Lord. The prominent vices connected with the body are cruelty, theft and sexual hunger. The Gurus and saints believed in two kinds of actions, i.e. good or bad. The doer cannot escape from the effect of his deeds. While good deeds are fruitful, the bad actions get due punishments. The Charvaka hedonism has been rejected outright by the Guru. The virtue or righteousness exhibited through body, speech and mind is known as _Dharma_. In no religious system is the emphasis on ethical conduct greater than as laid down in the Adi Granth where ‘truthful living or conduct has been declared higher than Truth itself’. Sweetness and humility are the essence of all virtues. Life is most fruitful when we meet those who practice humility and gentleness even while they are strong. The virtuous deeds are the tree, God’s Name its branches, faith its flowers and the Divine knowledge its fruit. To achieve sublimity one should make truth his fasting, contentment his pilgrimage, cognition and meditation his ablution, compassion his deity and forgiveness his rosary. Very few have the right way their loin-cloth, consciousness their sacred enclosure, good deeds their frontal mark and the Lord’s love their food. He who eats what he earns through his earnest labour, and from his hand gives some in charity, alone knows the true way of life.

The Gurus ‘never forgot that there is only one God of all the beings’. For him none is born great, none is inferior to the other; the walls and prejudices created in society are only man made. He advocates the removal of all social barriers between man and man, and man and woman. He has totally rejected the division of _varnas_ (castes) and _Ashrams_ (stages of life) enjoined by Hindu _Shashtras_. He believes in universal brotherhood and propagates love amongst all beings.

*My observations are as follows:*

The doctrine of Grace of God and is part and parcel of almost all the religions on the earth.Law of Karma is an esential doctrine peculiar to HInduism.It has been copied by sikhs.Even the constitution of India does not recognise it as a separate religion.The sikhs is a closed sect living miles away from reality.They have never contributed to any of the economic activity, scientific activity and advancements.All that they do is to be a load on society.

There is no name of sikh in politics except in the regional politics of Punjab.Why so?It is only because the religion has become a burden on the individuals who cannot practice it. 

In hindu's the class system originated way back Manu's days and had specific purpose and that suited that time.Each person of a society had some job to do.The system worked well.The philosphy had worked well.

The sikh guru's have quoited that Vedas should be rejected and all one should do is to remember Him all the time.If one follows this line of action this world will come to an end. Sikh religion in the end is a failure.

Let us look at the significance of keeping a beard.It looks horrible to see a sikh man when he is not clad properly.People avoid sikhs in India because of they look unclean and untidy .What ius the big significance of keeping the hairs that give them unkempt look.

Sikhs could not have their Guru's saved from the Hand of Muslims.How can they save themselves. Most of the affluent families have already starting running to Europe and USA and the poor sikhs are left in India to face the music of poverty.There is no sharing of wealth amongst the sikhs.I do not think that this religion will have any supporter on the earth after a few centuries and will die its own death because of 

1.Dis respect of Guru's order. 5 ks' especially in Punjab most of the sikhs do not keep the hair.those left trim .
2.Wearing turban is a difficult task.
3.The youngs are disillusioned.
4.Most of them have even altered their names.
5.The sikhs who have migrated are not helping their indian relatives at all.
6.Sikhs have nothing to feel proud of the turbans and the beards.
The morale of the kids is down.Mere gurbani will make them faqeers.Is there any name who have ever obtained salvatiuion.None 



Enjoy your Paath and Gurudwara at the cost of the development of the country whose resources are depleted on account of poor activity.

Rest when you Talk.



----------------------------------------
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## kds1980 (May 14, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*



> Sikhs could not have their Guru's saved from the Hand of Muslims.How can they save themselves.



well its just like saying that christians were unable to save christ but still christianity is the biggest religion in the world.

as far as copying is concerned you can easily say that all abrabic faiths are carbon copy of each other


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## vinod (May 14, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Dear kds ji,

Thank you but your reply is nowhere near the expected answer,It out of the periphery of complete fitting reply.
Please reply sincerely if you are versed with Sikhism.

Namaste


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## GuruPyaara (May 14, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*



kds1980 said:


> well its just like saying that christians were unable to save christ but still christianity is the biggest religion in the world.
> 
> as far as copying is concerned you can easily say that all abrabic faiths are carbon copy of each other


 
the best reply kds1980 ji.

our friend Vinod just cannot digest the truth, so that is ok.
i must say, they say the old wine is better though, does packaging date or material matter? 
Actualy Sikhism depicts the ultimate truth, so true from ever and true for ever. 

Distorters of gurbani cross all the limits and present it in their own words- will it change the truth. Truth is the truth, may hurt some big egoes but will not change ever never.


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## vinod (May 14, 2007)

*Re: To see without eyes to hear without ears*

Hello Japjisaab[Mohinder sahni ji,
I am quoting you:
"What reality are you talking. Believing in superisition, sati pratha, worshipping stones, havans, jadu tuna, descriminating people by birth etc. etc. 

Thank God Gurbani leads us to live with logic and not blind faith. Well with all eight hundred millions of population, you could only find a sikh at least to lead you as Prime Minister. And the Indian laws does not permit manu's descrimination of humanity.
Grow the beard and see the eternal bliss. Our Gurus have taught us how to live and we are very happy. Regards Sahni Mohinder"
===============
*Reply*
*Respected Sir,*

*It seems that you have been hit on the softest part Of the intellect. Your observation is correct that PM of India is a puppet with Congress.He has himself admitted that he is not in religion.He simply wers  head gear for he has to.That should be clear.*

*There is no 'sati' tradition these days atleast in India.There can be stray incidence.*

*Indian laws are not discriminatory at all.There is a preferential treatment for the schedules caste and tribes.However, Sikhs have never demanded for there minority status and most of the intellectuals that sikhs have are busy having their bath in personal glory.Khushwqant singh is the firat burning example. He is the only man who can influence the minds of the governemt by his pen power. But he is not doing it.*
*even Muslims have got preferential treatment in the matter Of service. *
*Sikhs never claimed it.They never fought it out.*



*Mr. Navjot Sidhu ji is available on TV on all sorts of funny programmes and he is with BJP party.Hail Those Sikhs who are practising treacherywith their poor brothers. And rest of you are sheltering your self in the refuge of other Govenment.*
*Make merry and leave your brethern in India.Y don't you help your brothers who are in India.*
*Enjoy your Sikhi if that is the Sikhi ..I bow to you sir. If it is a crime to suggest someone, i have committed one.*





*Namaskaram.*


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## simpy (May 14, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

*Wow, Respected Sadh Sangat Ji, *

*Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib Ne Jo keha Sach Keha- Sade Veer Vinod Ji ne Partakh kar ditta.*
*Endless thanks to you Vinod Ji. *

*Respected Vinod Veer, Just like all your other posts and threads, this one also shows a clear picture of your understanding of SIKH CONSCIOUS  ... *

*and i again welcome you with both hands folded, as Guru Sahib Ne Sanu Sikhyaa Ditti Hai-*
*AMg 339
ang 339
Page 339

gauVI ]
gourree
Gauree:

inMdau inMdau mo kau logu inMdau ]
nindho nindho mo ko log nindho 
Slander me, slander me - go ahead, people, and slander me.

inMdw jn kau KrI ipAwrI ]
nindhaa jun ko khuree piaaree
Slander is pleasing to the Lord's humble servant.

inMdw bwpu inMdw mhqwrI ]1] rhwau ]
nindhaa baap nindhaa mehuthaaree
Slander is my father, slander is my mother. ||1||Pause||

inMdw hoie q bYkuMiT jweIAY ]
nindhaa hoe th baikunth jaaeeai
If I am slandered, I go to heaven;

nwmu pdwrQu mnih bsweIAY ]
naam pudhaaruth munehi busaaeeai
the wealth of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, abides within my mind.

irdY suD jau inMdw hoie ]
ridhai sudh jo nindhaa hoe 
If my heart is pure, and I am slandered,

hmry kpry inMdku Doie ]1]
humurae kupurae nindhuk dhoe 
then the slanderer washes my clothes. ||1||

inMdw krY su hmrw mIqu ]
nindhaa kurai s humuraa meeth 
One who slanders me is my friend;

inMdk mwih hmwrw cIqu ]
nindhuk maahi humaaraa cheeth 
the slanderer is in my thoughts.

inMdku so jo inMdw horY ]
nindhuk so jo nindhaa horai
The slanderer is the one who prevents me from being slandered.

hmrw jIvnu inMdku lorY ]2]
humuraa jeevun nindhuk lorai
The slanderer wishes me long life. ||2||

inMdw hmrI pRym ipAwru ]
nindhaa humuree praem piaar 
I have love and affection for the slanderer.

inMdw hmrw krY auDwru ]
nindhaa humuraa kurai oudhaar 
Slander is my salvation.

jn kbIr kau inMdw swru ]
jun kubeer ko nindhaa saar 
Slander is the best thing for servant Kabeer.

inMdku fUbw hm auqry pwir ]3]20]71]
nindhuk ddoobaa hum outhurae paar 
The slanderer is drowned, while I am carried across. ||3||20||71||


**(source of gurbani translation:Sikhitothemax)*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (May 14, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*


Dear Vinod ji, 

I am appalled to note the response that you have received so far from this Forum. This is not the peak of intellect of the Forum. We have a number of resident Brahmgyaani's who claim to know all in this forum. I am sure someone will come forth to answer your comments. 

If all else fails then my humble self will fight this battle to the end.

Before you start criticising others please also get your facts in order. Firstly there is no such thing as Hinduism. Are you are referring to the Phillosophy of Vedanta?.

You refer to Sikhism as “An old wine in a new bottle”. I am glad you used the word OLD. For arguments sake I will follow your line of thought. Indeed the wine was old and had lost its sparkle. It was not a product of / for this Yuga. It did not conform to the rules of this Yuga. It had gone stale and had lost its appeal. It had become a cause of suffocation for the general public by those in power (Brahmins). It was used as a tool to prey on the fears of the general public. But Guru Nanak FERMENTED it by adding the missing ingredient “Naam” and sprinkled the Divine Essence all over it and made it fit for the new Era. Now after all that hard work would you put it back into the same Dirty Old Bottle. No my brother it is indeed worthy of a New Bottle. The very Bottle and the Wine now Sparkles into the sore eyes of the old system.

I shall respond to your others comments when I find some time. In the meantime I would humbly request all the Brahmgyaanis, those with “Third Eye Open” and the Esteemed Know Alls to come forth and respond to this Challenge.

The above is my humble understanding and apologise if I have hurt anyone’s feelings.


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## GuruPyaara (May 14, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Ajnabi ji,

Not fair, coming today after how many days- 8 days and discarding all what we all murakhs together tried to do. thnks. The first post like this one was a long time back by our veer vinod, now on this post i see one on 5/6 - to that Surinder ji and japjisahib ji replied. Then starting yesterdays post by vinod, kds1980 ji, surinder ji, and myself replied, then again vinod ji replied to that surinder ji replied. Since you are not satisfied and calling for your brahmgyany fellows I think all of us should have let this person sing his antisikh gagagaggaga and wait for Sirimaan/Sirimati Ekmusafir Ajnabi ji. So that he/she WILL SHOW UP WITH HIS OWN SHAAN AND HIS BIG PIPER AFTER 8/10 DAYS or may be later TO PUT THIS WAR TO AN END. Ajnabi ji battlefield is open for you from my side now, as I am backing out for a while (cannot say anything for others) and will wait and see your kaarnaama.

By the way Sir/Madam I want to know who are the brahmgyany fellows of yours you are calling upon. Your own ego itself seems to be flying onto the seventh heavans, where will be the other's? If I am understanding it right, it is you more than vinod who wants to have a big fight instead of solving the matter otherwise


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (May 14, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Guru Pyaara ji,

This is an attempt to serious make people scratch thier heads and see which directions we are all going. No offence is intended to anyone but it is a call for those who really believe they are the masters of Sikh Faith to come forward and prove themselves or to accept that we are all students here in this forum. So far in the posts above no one has attempted to answer the questions. One item is being taken out of the entire thread and even that is not given full consideration.

It is not a case of just shutting ones mouth or chase one out of the forum. The questions posed are real. They affect all of us in present and future. Let us be constructive and give positive feed back. We will all learn from each other.

I do not think Vinod has come to this forum with malice. If he has then we shall deal with it accordingly. In the meanwhile search for answers so that we can show him that we do have brains in Sikhism.

The fight we should have is with ourselves with our bodies, our own concious which shall be of benefit and not outside with each other. If you consider yourself a sikh (no offence intended) then join me to defend Sikhism. Live and Learn.


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## Lionchild (May 14, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Well i wouldn't say that "sikhism" is an evolved form of hinduism, thought there are influences from both islam and hindu faith (of those, they are practical ones!).

Sikhi is part of the dharmic religions, and has some influences from the abrahamic islam. With that said, that is where the comparisons ends.

sikhs don't worship stones, nor have as many rituals as hindu.

The one thing i do agree on is the karma part, both the cause-and-effect as well as law of attraction are part of this.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (May 14, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Lionchild



> has some influences from the abrahamic islam


 
Please support your comments with evidence.


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## kds1980 (May 14, 2007)

vinod said:


> Dear kds ji,
> 
> Thank you but your reply is nowhere near the expected answer,It out of the periphery of complete fitting reply.
> Please reply sincerely if you are versed with Sikhism.
> ...


 
dear vinod

it looks like you have no answer to my reply.the reason i kept my reply short because it is better
both the debaters and readers and i very know that it is not a complete reply.now i will try to reply to your other questions.



> The doctrine of Grace of God and is part and parcel of almost all the religions on the earth.Law of Karma is an esential doctrine peculiar to HInduism.It has been copied by sikhs.Even the constitution of India does not recognise it as a separate religion.The sikhs is a closed sect living miles away from reality.They have never contributed to any of the economic activity, scientific activity and advancements.All that they do is to be a load on society.


 
dear vinod

first of all sikhs are considered minority in india.they can open their college,schools and provide reservation to sikh students while hindu's can't do this.now coming to
your other question that sikhs are load on society it is total ********.the recent survey conducted by ibn shows that sikhs have the highest income among the four religions.

Muslims spend more than Hindu peers-Indicators-Economy-News-The Economic Times

Hindu 
61,423 
Muslim 
58,420 
Christian 
70,644 
Sikh 
91,153 
Others 
101,105

now tell me how could a community whose income is 50% higher than hindu's is load on society?



> There is no name of sikh in politics except in the regional politics of Punjab.Why so?It is only because the religion has become a burden on the individuals who cannot practice it.


 
first of all majority of people in india caste their vote on the basis of caste,region,language.as sikhs are only 2% of india's population do you think that non-sikh population of india will vote for a religious sikh.i don't think so.you also mentioned
that manmohan singh is not in religion i can also say that majority of hindu politicians are not much in their religion.look at the plight of bjp it is considered as untouchable
by other seculer parties because alliance with bjp will cost them muslim votes.
some of the so called hindu politicians could even break their back in their muslim appeasing policies.last year when haj minister of uttar pradesh issued fatwa against danish cartoon makers very few so called hindu politicians have guts to criticise him.
so if you beleive that manmohan is not much in religion so he should not be counted
as sikh politician then you should also not count majority of hindu politicians as hindu's and accept that hinduism is more burden on hindu's.

i think it is enough for today.


----------



## gurc (May 15, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

hi Vinod ji




> There is no sharing of wealth amongst the sikhs


 
Below is a article 


> Punjab Newsline Network Saturday, 12 May 2007
> WASHINGTON(USA): Washington-based Sikh Human Development Foundation (SHDF) has awarded 153 scholarships this year to needy students in Punjab and neighboring states in India. This is the highest number of need-based scholarships granted in any single year by SHDF to meritorious Sikh and non-Sikh students pursuing professional degree courses. The last year’s record number was 127.


 
Sat Sri Akal


----------



## lovely_silky (May 15, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

waheguru waheguru waheguru waheguru, Ajnabi ne ta had hi lah ditti.




ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> I am appalled to note the response that you have received so far from this Forum. This is not the peak of intellect of the Forum. We have a number of resident Brahmgyaani's who claim to know all in this forum. I am sure someone will come forth to answer your comments.
> 
> If all else fails then my humble self will fight this battle to the end.
> 
> ...





			
				ekmusafir_ajnabi said:
			
		

> This is an attempt to serious make people scratch thier heads and see which directions we are all going. No offence is intended to anyone but it is a call for those who really believe they are the masters of Sikh Faith to come forward and prove themselves or to accept that we are all students here in this forum. So far in the posts above no one has attempted to answer the questions. One item is being taken out of the entire thread and even that is not given full consideration.





			
				ekmusafir_ajnabi said:
			
		

> I do not think Vinod has come to this forum with malice.


 
no wonder they say- 

sachai chhup nahee saktee bnavat ke asoolon se
ke khushbu aa nahi sakti kabhi kagaz ke foolon se


your words sir/mam show your Perfect Alliance to the antisikh mentality. Anyways, Can eternal truth be fermented/aged/contained? Our Guru are providing the humanity 'the key to the eternal truth'. your analogy of old - new - wine - bottle is totally baseless. On top of that you are challenging others knowledge, Wow Ajnabi Wow.
Waheguru sadaa to apne bhagta di aap rakhda aya. kise bande da hankaar kuj nahi kar sakda ajbani ji
ta ko dhokha keha biaapai jaa ko out tuhari


----------



## simpy (May 15, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

*Respected Sadh Sangat Ji,*

*following are some more quotes posted by Vinod ji from another thread- may help in communicating with him...*



			
				Vinod said:
			
		

> Hi Friend,
> Any person represaenting any religion would be known as the economic value the people of that religion control. What have Sikhs got.? Nothing a big Zero.?Sikhs will always be targetted always till the resurrect theselves in the form of a community not entirely engaged in Gurudwaras and 'path'.
> Either have economic value or nuisance value and enjoy the earth.Else beg as is done these days.


 


			
				Vinod said:
			
		

> Sikhs are basically peaceful but not progressive at all. There vision is limited. We ,in India, do not have a sikh who would have done for his community.Sikhs have problem with French Government rearding Turban and someone has with the beard and someone with the Jarnail Singh calling martyr.
> Sikhs are ancient people and their value system is zero.Most of the richer sikhs have shifted to USA/UK/Canada.


 


			
				Vinod said:
			
		

> How do you reconcile with this.? I have taken this from your site a beginning of a thread where a sikh admits that he may or may not believe in the existence of God?
> Of what use is the explanation of the scriptural reference when sikhs have no faith in god and they admit is openly. What a religion.
> 
> Kindly clarify as to if this is your sikhi?





			
				Vinod said:
			
		

> the way the sikhs are forgetting their dress codes this religion would be lost in 200 years and you are stating that this willmultiply.They can if they have economic wealth and some respect in Foreign Countriues. They are treated shabily everywhere.It is not my fault but your weakness.


 
*forgive me please*


----------



## GuruPyaara (May 15, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*



ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> I do not think Vinod has come to this forum with malice.


 


ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> If you consider yourself a sikh (no offence intended) then join me to defend Sikhism. Live and Learn.


 
Ajnabi ji, 

thanks for the offer BUT MY ANSWER TO YOU IS A BIG *NO*. By any means I will never join those who are trying to encase Guru Ji's ETERNAL WISDOM in mere bottles and comparing it to wine :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: and saying Guru ji fermented it :}--}: :}--}: :}--}:  . i will fight it in my own way, dont need your help.


----------



## babboo2007 (May 15, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*



ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> Guru Pyaara ji,
> 
> This is an attempt to serious make people scratch thier heads and see which directions we are all going. No offence is intended to anyone but it is a call for those who really believe they are the masters of Sikh Faith to come forward and prove themselves or to accept that we are all students here in this forum. So far in the posts above no one has attempted to answer the questions. One item is being taken out of the entire thread and even that is not given full consideration.
> 
> ...


 
joint venture, isnt it. 'VINOD + EKMUSAFIR AJNABI'.


----------



## ekmusafir_ajnabi (May 15, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Lovely Silky,

If you have nothing to participate then please go back into your cage.
If you consider yourself to be wise then answer some of the allegations made above by Vinod.

What you read above has nothing to do with hankaar. If any of my comments are baseless and you can prove me wrong then come forth and enlighten me and others.



> sachai chhup nahee saktee bnavat ke asoolon se
> ke khushbu aa nahi sakti kabhi kagaz ke foolon se


 
The sachai we are facing is real. I am glad to see josh in you. Please come and enlighten us all. Show us your khushboo of the real flower. Show us your real sikhi.

Contribute positively with knowledge.

I am happy to be called a bad person if that awakens you people up.

Many thanks for your comments.


----------



## ekmusafir_ajnabi (May 15, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

babboo2007,

Thanks for off the mark comments.

Do you have anything positive to contribute to this title. Perhaps you would like to share your views on the allegations above. We sit here in this forum and take the stick from other faiths. They come prepared and well versed with the knowledge of our religion. How prepared are you. Share your knowledge with us too.

Looking forward to some positive feedback from you.


----------



## ekmusafir_ajnabi (May 15, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*



GuruPyaara said:


> Ajnabi ji,
> 
> thanks for the offer BUT MY ANSWER TO YOU IS A BIG *NO*. By any means I will never join those who are trying to encase Guru Ji's ETERNAL WISDOM in mere bottles and comparing it to wine :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: and saying Guru ji fermented it :}--}: :}--}: :}--}: . i will fight it in my own way, dont need your help.


 
I expected this from you.You call yourself GuruPyaara. Your need to broaden your vision. This is precisely the reason we are being slapped by other faiths. You know nothing about your own faith let alone about someone else's. 

Yes you can do your Jakaares at the back of the crowd among the hypocrits in sikh religion. No wonder we are loosing our respect.

Thanks for your help you. I am sure god also exists in you in one form or the other.


----------



## GuruPyaara (May 15, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*



ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> I expected this from you.You call yourself GuruPyaara. Your need to broaden your vision. This is precisely the reason we are being slapped by other faiths. You know nothing about your own faith let alone about someone else's.
> 
> Yes you can do your Jakaares at the back of the crowd among the hypocrits in sikh religion. No wonder we are loosing our respect.
> 
> Thanks for your help you. I am sure god also exists in you in one form or the other.


 
Thankyou very much for the comments Ajnabi ji, exactly the same I expected from you. To support your view on Encasing Guru Ji's Wisdom in bottles, and rating it old/new/fermented what else one can expect from you:rofl!!: . God is everywhere, isnt He. FORMLESS  . i think Silky said it right- the truth seeps out from somewhere, how long one can hide it. 



			
				Lovely_silky said:
			
		

> sachai chhup nahee saktee bnavat ke asoolon se
> ke khushbu aa nahi sakti kabhi kagaz ke foolon se


Any murakh can understand Vinod ji's intent from all of his posts, but you claiming to be the best one around is saying that 


			
				ekmusafir_ajnabi said:
			
		

> I do not think Vinod has come to this forum with malice.


 
If one wants to answer him answer him, why should one blame others for not answering or answering less. I know what is right and wrong for me, have no need to learn from a person who supports anti sikh viewpoint and says-


			
				ekmusafir_ajnabi said:
			
		

> You refer to Sikhism as “An old wine in a new bottle”. I am glad you used the word OLD. For arguments sake I will follow your line of thought. Indeed the wine was old and had lost its sparkle. It was not a product of / for this Yuga. It did not conform to the rules of this Yuga. It had gone stale and had lost its appeal. It had become a cause of suffocation for the general public by those in power (Brahmins). It was used as a tool to prey on the fears of the general public. But Guru Nanak FERMENTED it by adding the missing ingredient “Naam” and sprinkled the Divine Essence all over it and made it fit for the new Era. Now after all that hard work would you put it back into the same Dirty Old Bottle. No my brother it is indeed worthy of a New Bottle. The very Bottle and the Wine now Sparkles into the sore eyes of the old system.


 
Discrete answer: jutii vi marni hai par resham vich lapet ke. ha ha ha ha


----------



## ekmusafir_ajnabi (May 15, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

GuruPyaara

Do not fight me. Fight the likes of Vinod who is insulting us all. Change your direction of fire.

I answered him back in line with his question. Look at it with a Broadmind. I too know the value of Gurus. I am sure also read "For arguments sake ....." in my reply. If not then read it again.

I have no intention of creating a scene in this forum I have had enough. Lets get together and fight the real enemy. If we start quarrelling with each other then they win the argument and we loose face. Is that what you want.

Do you agree with him on this:



> Sikhs could not have their Guru's saved from the Hand of Muslims.How can they save themselves. Most of the affluent families have already starting running to Europe and USA and the poor sikhs are left in India to face the music of poverty.There is no sharing of wealth amongst the sikhs.I do not think that this religion will have any supporter on the earth after a few centuries and will die its own death because of
> 
> 1.Dis respect of Guru's order. 5 ks' especially in Punjab most of the sikhs do not keep the hair.those left trim .
> 2.Wearing turban is a difficult task.
> ...


 
What is your reply ?.

And I will request *Lovely_silky* too, for a positive contribution as well. 

This is not my fight alone. It is the Dharam of all Sikhs to defend themselves.


----------



## GuruPyaara (May 16, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Oh yes Ajnabi ji, 



			
				ekmusafir_ajnabi said:
			
		

> I answered him back in line with his question. Look at it with a Broadmind. I too know the value of Gurus. I am sure also read "For arguments sake ....." in my reply. If not then read it again.


 

This statement makes it totally clear that you are a some fake baba supporter or a fake baba , making all the effort to make me believe that YOU ARE RIGHT. No wonder Ajnabi ji you built your image first to be a very good person like a gyani under other poster threads and then suddenly popped up under this poster thread with your true intentions. Sweet coating afterwards is not going to bring any water in my mouth Ajnabi ji. With God's grace Iknow Ajnabi Ji how to read and think. I know how, where and when to reply and to whom. Thanks for the reply and THE sweet coating.


----------



## Archived_member2 (May 16, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Vinod Jee!

Oldest Hindu Scriptures are around five thousand years old. May I ask how old is Hindu religion and from where they learned to drink wine?
In my view, worldly religions are the veils. Like all wines are toxic, all religions are toxic too.
One realizes the true journey toward Truth when he transcends all veils.
Please do not try to convince Sikhs that Hindu Veil is better. 
The true Guru guides all to ONE Truth, the thread uniting all.
Human beings weave a Veil out of the thread.

Should one criticize the other wine while he is drunk drinking it from a pitcher that looks different?


Balbir Singh


----------



## ekmusafir_ajnabi (May 16, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*



> This statement makes it totally clear that you are a some fake baba supporter or a fake baba , making all the effort to make me believe that YOU ARE RIGHT. No wonder Ajnabi ji you built your image first to be a very good person like a gyani under other poster threads and then suddenly popped up under this poster thread with your true intentions. Sweet coating afterwards is not going to bring any water in my mouth Ajnabi ji. With God's grace Iknow Ajnabi Ji how to read and think. I know how, where and when to reply and to whom. Thanks for the reply and THE sweet coating.


 
Thank you very much for the display of your wisdom and my character assasination. After all you are a Doctorate of Phillosophy. Asking you politely for your comments on the aligations of Vinod in this forum constitutes that I am a fake baba supporter or a fake baba, I am sorry this is beyond me. What is in ones mind comes out. If you have any problems with my contribution on Gurbani then do not read it. Yes, I am Sikh of my Guru, "Guru Granth Sahib" and am blessed with many qualities. Unfortunately what is missing in you, I cannot add.

For your information my true intention was to create a good and intellegent conversation on issues that are affecting us. Vinod has pointed some genuine drawbacks in sikhism at present. If we do not collectively stand up to those issues and reply constructively then it means we accept it. If it means we have to talk in the same language that he has used and he understands then so be it. Well thank you very much for your contrubution. I have have no problem with you. Those that genuinely feel for sikhism will definitely ponder over Vinod's comments and reply back constructively and not pick petty arguments with fellow members.



> Do not fight me. Fight the likes of Vinod who is insulting us all. Change your direction of fire.


 
Was there any difficulty in understanding that? 

Many thanks once again. I do not feel it is in the benifit of this forum or to the visiting guests to exchange words again.


----------



## Archived_member7 (May 17, 2007)

Satsriakaal ji Saadh Sangat

Vinod...i have gone through yor posts ..and i feel there is more abt the hindu 'ism' that you should read instead of trying to show the Panth down...

Hindu is no 'ism' ..show me any of the texts the vedas ..smritis ..puran....any granth which has the word ' hindu ' ....i in fact would like you to find it for me ..i shall be grateful....

If u feel Guru Nanak Dev ji has give nothing new ...then u should be grateful...Babaji wanted people to stick to the same philosophy ...and not falter away...

The word Hindu denotes ..the geographical term ...Hindustan and Hindu ....it is the derivation from the word Sindhu ...and was mentioned by Persians...even in the Zend Avesta holy book of the Parsi Zoroastrians...there is reference ..the farsi could not pronounce sindhu..and changed it to ' H ' 

Savarkarji..if u have read or known about him ..defines Hindu as .. 


<SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"> Asindhu Sindhu Paryanta yashya Bharat Bhoomika,
Pitribhu Punya Bhuschaiva Sa vai Hindu Riti Smritah.[1]

Satsriakaal ji Saadh Sangat
Vinod...i have gone through yor posts ..and i feel there is more abt the hindu 'ism' that you should read instead of trying to show the Panth down...
Hindu is no 'ism' ..show me any of the texts the vedas ..smritis ..puran....any granth which has the word ' hindu ' ....i in fact would like you to find it for me ..i shall be grateful....

If u feel Guru Nanak Dev ji has give nothing new ...then u should be grateful...Babaji wanted people to stick to the same philosophy ...and not falter away...

The word Hindu denotes ..the geographical term ...Hindustan and Hindu ....it is the derivation from the word Sindhu ...and was mentioned by Persians...even in the Zend Avesta holy book of the Parsi Zoroastrians...there is reference ..the farsi could not pronounce sindhu..and changed it to ' H ' 
Savarkarji..if u have read or known about him ..defines Hindu as .. 

Asindhu Sindhu Paryanta yashya Bharat Bhoomika,
Pitribhu Punya Bhuschaiva Sa vai Hindu Riti Smritah.[1] 

There is a vast land between river Sindhu and Hind Mahasagar called Bharat and those who accept that this is their fatherland or / and a holy land, land of pilgrimage are all Hindu. 
Thus Hindu has nothing to do with one set of beliefs or practices...
If u read and understand time when Guru Nanak Devji was born ..Islam was at its barberic heights ...people would follow religion with fear ...Superstitions and rituals not in the Dharam were practiced ..
The so called 'brahmins' self styled owners of Dharam were making people do just rituals sans Dharmic values or even the understanding why they were doing it ..reciting sanskrit sans the meaning ..people dint understand ..
When Guru Nanak Devji went to the river banks and asked why the pundits were offering water facing the Sun ..their reply was ..that the water would reach Him ...now the point is ..did they even know that offering water food was as a term of respect and surrender ...??????? They dint have apporpriate answers ... 
The priestly class were being a nusiance since they made money out of rituals and wanted people to stick to it ...since they minted money ...
If you read the Vedas ..there is no stone worship....there is just Ik Omkaar...if u want ...u can even read the Mandukya Upanishad..or even listen to the cd ..sung by pundit Jasraj...
The idol worship began post Buddha times ..it was in vogue ..and thus ..art flourished ...but let me tell you here...the pran pratishta also came into being....
Vinod you should be thankful to all the 10 Gurus ..after the Panth martialised ...they fought islamic barbarians and have saved the ' HIndu ' ...their daughters and mothers and sisters ..my Tenth Master Guru Gobindsinghi Maharaj..asked his Father the Ninth Guru to be a representative of the Kashmiri Pundits who had come to seek help ...because Aurangzeb had banned the wearing of janeu...and if u are aware ..he use to order his generals ...that he would only eat if he had seen 10 manns of janeu..!!!! Guru Tegh Bahadurji Maharaj ...gave his life ...for the Pundits ...

Vinod ..you might even laugh at the phrase ...Sardarji Baara baje ...but if you know the reason ...i would say u shall be proud and will say...mere bhi baara bajenge...
Vinod ..those were times when the mughals would kidnap hindu women..and take them to their land ...at Punjab in the dead of the night ..they were swooped down by the brave Misls....the nihang army batallions ....who then respectfully sent the women back to where where they were frm ...!

Vinod ..Sikhi is the essence of Sanatan Dharam...the real Dharam ..and was established to make people realise that rituals wasnt just Dharam nor was idol worship....and to move out of the muharats and superstitions that had creeped in with changing times ...
Read Mira bai...read Kabirji....read the Bhagvad Gita....you will realise ...well if u feel there are criticizing stanzas in the Gurbani..they are for a purpose ...its for people as a wake up call,....Dharam is not abt keeping distance frm downtrodden people ...
I am the Das of the Das of the Gurus ...if this fool has spoken too much Bhul chuk Muaaf Karni ...
My intention is not to hate you..but to let u know ..The Panth stood by the country and the people of this country in the worst times ..

the verses of Sayyad Baba Bulleh Shah - Verses in praise of Guru Gobind Singh 

"Na Kahun Abh Kee, Na Kahun Tab Kee, agar na hote Guru Gobind Singh, to sunnat hoti sab kee" 

I talk about neither yesterday nor tomorrow; 
I talk about today. 
Had there been no Gobind Singh , 
All would be under Islamic sway.(circumcised) 

Raaj Karega Khalsa


----------



## lovely_silky (May 17, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*



ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> And I will request *Lovely_silky* too, for a positive contribution as well.
> 
> This is not my fight alone. It is the Dharam of all Sikhs to defend themselves.


 
oh te pehla meri negative sigi. tuhadi apni da ta jalus nikal gyaa.


----------



## luv4u (May 17, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*


Quoted from the Vinod ji's write up.



 1.Dis respect of Guru's order. 5 ks' especially in Punjab most of the sikhs do not keep the hair.those left trim .
2.Wearing turban is a difficult task.
3.The youngs are disillusioned.
4.Most of them have even altered their names.
5.The sikhs who have migrated are not helping their indian relatives at all.
6.Sikhs have nothing to feel proud of the turbans and the beards. 


These are the basic questions put forward by Vinod ji.

There are 29 posts and not even a single post has tried to answer the above.I ,as a sikh, cannot answer anyone of this and do admit thatyes we need a thorough introspection. The conditions in India for sikhs are no more congenial.One should be in fool's paradise to say that sikhs will be having their own nation.We must get the message clear that we have to do something to infuse something in the new generation with values that they feel proud of Sikhi.




I also do not think that anyone will make fun of these issues.I also note that Mr. Vinod has not visited this site to answer your queries.He may be disillusioned as to why we are not appreciating his view point.There is nothing wrong in admitting our weaknesses instead of pointing out the origin of 'Hindu' from 'Sindhu'. Hindu culture may be old and may be not. We have to keep our house in order and then look at the fire in the tail of others.


----------



## lovely_silky (May 17, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

You are wrong, people have answered him, many times. Yes everybody is doing it in their own way. If you cannot answer, why are you blaming others, this is very funny. This person is again the same way as your other friend(only wants to read what he expects, not what others are telling him) whose post you were repeating in the other thread. Seems like have a lot of friends buddy. 

You seem like very greatly concerned about your dear friends questions, why dont you yourself answer them. A friend in need is a friend indeed.


----------



## luv4u (May 17, 2007)

Hi silky ji,
SSA.

Your post is nice.It asks me to answer .I have no answer and I accept this regarding the 6 issues raised by Mr. Vinod.Regarding similarities between religion there may be or may not be, I am not well versed with Neither sikhism or Hinduism,I am not sure.

The general concepts that seem to be of similar nature are as follows:

1.Concept Of soul.
2.Rebirth.
3.Theory Of Salvation.
4.Law oF cause and effect.
5.Ahm Brahm asmi [Omnipresence Of the God.in Sikhism.. ghat ghat ....all pervasive]
6.Grace of Lord.

You may kindly like to elaborate by stating the differences between the two.Mr. Vinod will stand answered once we point out the areas of non-convergence.,I hope you would be having a better theological knowledge and can discuss like 'cosmos' and concept of 'godhead'. I am not at all in the know of these things.Instead of checking me out you should think of replying to the question.

No one seems to be fighting pyaree ji. we are all facing a grim reality that is peeping right into our nose.


----------



## simpy (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

*Respected luv4u,*

*i know you considered me nosy in one of your recent posts under thread-Is It necessary to understand Entire bani?* *, but again i am humbly being nosy(aadat to majboor) must say something.*


*first of all, most welcome to the forum. hopefully you will enjoy and learn as well as share your knowledge with all.*


* THE WHOLE WEBSITE-SIKHPHILOSOPHY.NET is full of such concepts you are looking the information about  *


*humbly asking for your forgiveness for being nosy *

*once again humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


----------



## luv4u (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Hi Surinder ji
Thank you lady for welcoming me. It is reciprocal.


----------



## luv4u (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

*Hi... Everybody*

Without agreeing or disagreeing to the statements of Vinod ji, I want to share with you some of the important statistics about Sikhs.It would be in the interest Of all those who are contributing to the thread related to the sikhism amd its resurrection or downfall.​The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Nation​*Muslims register higher growth rate* 
*6.1 pc decline in Sikh population*
S. Satyanarayanan
*Tribune News Service* 
New Delhi, September 6
[ Note : I have retained the info. related to the sikhs only. I do not think that it requires a deliberationas to how's and why's of this phenomenon.In one of the posts that I have read today, it has been mentioned that sikhs population is increasing. I think that we stand clarified that it is not so hence some remedial steps need to be taken if we are to contribute to the growth Of sikhi. ]

*For the perusal Of all concerned OF all Sikh Veers and Sisters.*

The first-ever ‘Census report on religion’ released by the Census Commission of India today showed a “*high growth” of Muslims at 36 per cent during the decade 1991-2001 in sharp contrast to the 20.3 per cent growth rate of Hindu population during the same period. *​


The report, released by the Registrar General and Census Commissioner of India J.K. Bhantia in the presence of National Minorities Commission chairperson Tarlochan Singh here, showed a noticeable decline of Sikh population growth from 24.3 per cent in 1981-91 to only 18.2 per cent during 1991-2001. 

In terms of growth of different religious communities, Hindus showed a decline over the previous decade, their population growing by 20.3 per cent during 1991 and 2001 as compared to 25.1 per cent during 1981-91. On the other hand, the Muslim population grew by 1.5 per cent to 36 per cent during 1991 to 2001 as compared to 34.5 per cent during 1981-91. 

Out of the total population of 102.8 crore in the country as at the 2001 Census, the Hindus were 82.7 crore in number and constituted 80.5 per cent of the total population. The Muslim population stood at 13.8 crore comprising 13.4 per cent of the population. 

The next in size are the Christians (2.4 crore), followed by Sikhs (1.9 crore), Buddhists (79 lakh), Jains (42 lakh) and those following ‘Other’ religions and persuasions including the tribal religions, etc (66 lakh). 

--
The report points out that as regards the disparity of the absolute and relative number of male and female population in the society, expressed in terms of sex ratio or number of females per thousand males, *the Sikhs (893) are far below the national average of 933. *



The literacy rate among Hindus (65.1 per cent) was slightly better than the national average of (64.8 per cent) for all religious groups combined. Among Muslims the literacy rate is 59.1 per cent, below the national average. 

The highest literacy rate is recorded among the Jains (94.1 per cent), followed by Christians (80.3 per cent), Buddhists (72.7 per cent) and* Sikhs (69.4 per cent).* 
*[ Sikhs at the lowest rung]*
Among the Muslims the literacy rate among the females was returned as 50.1 per cent, below the national average of 53.7 per cent. Slightly better is the female literacy rate among the Hindus (53.2 per cent), again below the national average. 
The highest literacy rate among the females was recorded among the Jains (90.6 per cent), like their male counterparts, followed by Christians (76.2 per cent), *Sikhs (63.1 per cent)[ Sikhs almost at the bottom rung again]* and Buddhists (61.7 per cent). ​


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## luv4u (May 19, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

I am quoting below the content of the page that clearly tells the points of similarities and point Of differences between the two religions.http://www.sikhs.org/relig_h.htm


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*The Sikhism Home Page: Sikhism and Other Religions*[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Similarities*[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Reincarnation*[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Like Hinduism Sikhims believes in the transmigration of the soul. There are countless cycles of births and deaths. One only breaks this cycle when they achieve mukhti (merger with God) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Karma*[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Karma regulates the reincarnation and transmigration of the soul, Sikhism links Karma with the doctrine of Grace.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_"Mortals obtain a human body as a result of good deeds but he reaches the gate ofsalvation with God's kind grace." (Guru Nanak, Japji)_[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Maya*[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The world is just an illusion and some get enchanted with this illusion and forget God[/FONT] 

*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Points Of Differences[/FONT]*

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sikhism rejects polytheism and accepts monotheism. Whereas Sikhism starts with one God and universalizes Him, Hinduism starts with many Gods and occasionally gives glimpses of 'One'. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_"I do not accept Ganesha as important. I do not meditate on Krishna, neither on Vishnu. I do not hear them and do not recognize them. My love is with the Lotus feet of God. He is my protector, the Supreme Lord. I am dust of his Lotus feet." (Guru Gobind Singh, Krishna Avatar)_[/FONT] 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Authority of the Vedas and the belief that the truth revealed in them is absolute and that reading them one can realize perfection.[/FONT] 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_"I have read all the Vedas, but my mind's separation from God is not removed and the five demons of my house (body) are stilled not even for an instant." (Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadis, pg. 687)_[/FONT] 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sikhism does not recognize any priestly class.[/FONT] 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_"Kabir, the Brahman may be the Guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the saints. He rots to death in the perplexities of the four Vedas" (Bhagat Kabir, Salok, pg. 1377)_[/FONT] 


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rejection of the Ashrama Dharma theory of dividing man's life into four stages. Instead the Gurus emphasized living the householders life. Rejection of the Varna distinction of division of human society into higher and lower castes.[/FONT] 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_"There are four castes of the literates, warriors, cultivators and menials and the four stages of life. He who meditates on the Lord is the most distinguished amongst men." (Guru Ram Das, Gond, pg. 861)_[/FONT] 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_"The Lord asks not mortals caste and birth, so find thou out the Lord's True Home (truth). That alone is man's caste and that his glory, as are the deeds which he does." (Guru Nanak, Parbhati, pg. 1330)_[/FONT] 


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Gurus rejected the Avtara theory of the incarnations of God. The Gurus not only exposed the mortality of these gods but used stories to illustrate moral values, such as 'pride leads to a fall' illustrated by the story of Harnakhash, untouchability becoming superior through devotion to God by Krishna stories and stories where Bhrahma, Vishnu and Shiva are shown to be ordinary mortals. The Gurus stressed that there is only one God and that these gods and goddeses were not true.[/FONT] 


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_"In every age, the Lord creates the kings, who are sung of as His incarnations. Even they have not found His limits." (Guru Amar Das, Ashtpadis, pg. 423)_[/FONT] 



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_"Millions of incarnations of Vishnu and Shiv, with matted hair Desire Thee, O Kind Lord, with endless longing of their mind and body. Infinite and Inaccessible is Lord, the World Sustainer, and He is the Omnipresent wealthy Master. The gods, perfect persons, heavenly heralds and celestial singers contemplate on Thee. The greater gods and heavenly dancers utter Thine praises. Myrids of kings, gods and many super human beings remember the Lord and hail Him." (Guru Arjan Dev, Chhant, pg. 455)_[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Worship of idols and images.[/FONT] 


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_"The blind ignorant ones stray in doubt and so deluded, deluded they pluck flowers for worship. They worship the lifeless stones and adore tombs. Their service all goes in vain." (Guru Ram Das, Malar, pg. 1264)_[/FONT] 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_"They who say the stone is a god; in vain is their service. He who falls at the feet of the stone; vain goes his labour. My Lord ever speaks. The Lord gives gifts to all the living beings. The Lord is within, but the blind one knows not. Deluded by doubt, he is caught in a noose. The stone speaks not, nor gives anything. In vain are the ceremonies of the idolater, and fruitless his service." (Guru Arjan Dev, Bhairo, pg. 1160)_[/FONT] 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Gita and Vedanta goal of a Mukt. Once he achieves salvation he does not live for the community. In Sikhism the Gurmukh achieving salvation lives to save others.[/FONT] 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_"Abandon lust, wrath, avarice and worldly love. Thus be rid of both birth and death. Distress and darkness shall depart from thy home, when, within thee, the Guru implants wisdom and lights the Divine lamp. He, who serves the Lord crosses the sea of life. Through the Guru, O slave Nanak, the entire world is saved." (Guru Arjan Dev, Gauri, pg. 241)_[/FONT] 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Belief that reading of the six Shastras and their mastery will bring salvation.[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_"The greatly voluminous Simirtis and Shastras stretch out the extension of worldly love. The fools read them, but know not their Lord. Some rare one knows Him by the Guru's grace. Of Himself the Creator does and makes others do. By means of the True Bani, He implants truth within the mortal." (Guru Amar Das, Maru, pg. 1053)_[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]_"Many Shashtras and many Simirtis have I seen and searched them all. Nanak, they equal not Lord God's invaluable Name." (Guru Arjan Dev, Gauri, pg. 265)_[/FONT] 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rejection of Sanskrit or any language as being sacred.[/FONT]

It is being posted as it is as it can be used for the reference purposes.


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## spnadmin (May 19, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

luv4u ji

Thank you for taking the time and effort to post this essay. It explores an important theme very systematically, complete with references to SGGS and other sources. I have it bookmarked. This is so extremely valuable when trying to describe Sikhism to others and in the task of explaining why the notion that Sikhism is an offshoot or sect of any other Vedantic path is pure nonsense. You found material that really focuses on important lines of demarcation. You brought the main ideas al together in one place for us to read. 

Once again, much gratitude :}{}{}:


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## simpy (May 20, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

*Vaho Vaho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi*​ 

*Respected Sadh Sangat Ji,*

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 'Living Jot' App Akaal Purkh*

_*"By means of the True Bani, He implants truth within the mortal." Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Amar Das Ji panna # 1053.*_

_*Dur ki Bani- Anmol Padarath*_

_*Bani Guru Guru Hai Bani*_


*gur siqgur kw jo isKu AKwey su Blky auiT hir nwmu iDAwvY ]*
*audmu kry Blky prBwqI iesnwnu kry AMimRq sir nwvY ]*
*aupdyis gurU hir hir jpu jwpY siB iklivK pwp doK lih jwvY ]*
*iPir cVY idvsu gurbwxI gwvY bhidAw auTidAw hir nwmu iDAwvY ]*
*jo swis igrwis iDAwey myrw hir hir so gurisKu gurU min BwvY ]*
*ijs no dieAwlu hovY myrw suAwmI iqsu gurisK gurU aupdysu suxwvY ]*
*jnu nwnku DUiV mMgY iqsu gurisK kI jo Awip jpY Avrh nwmu jpwvY ]*

_*Bani Nirankaar*_

_*Gurbani Kahe Sevak Jan Mane*_

_*Gurbani Gavo Bhai*_

*gurbwxI iesu jg mih cwnxu krim vsY min Awey ]*

*hir ky sMq imlhu mnu dyvw jo gurbwxI muiK caudw jIau ]*

*siqgur kI bwxI siq srUpu hY gurbwxI bxIAY ]*

*ihrdY suix suix min AMimRqu BwieAw ]
gurbwxI hir AlKu lKwieAw ]

rUVo Twkur mwhro rUVI gurbwxI ]

hir jIau scw scu hY scI gurbwxI ]
siqgur qy scu pCwxIAY sic shij smwxI ]


gur AMimRq iBMnI dyhurI AMimRqu burky rwm rwjy ]
ijnw gurbwxI min BweIAw AMimRiq Cik Cky ]
gur quTY hir pwieAw cUky Dk Dky ]
hir jnu hir hir hoieAw nwnku hir ieky ]

gurbwxI suix mYlu gvwey ]
shjy hir nwmu mMin vswey ]

mY siqgur syqI iprhVI ikau gur ibnu jIvw mwau ]
mY gurbwxI AwDwru hY gurbwxI lwig rhwau ]
*



_*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness.*_

*GURBANI GAVO BHAI                 OUH SAFAL SADAA SUKHDAAEE*​


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## luv4u (May 21, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Quote
"The Sikh community has survived wars with the Mughals and then the British, the terrible bloodbath of the Partition, and then 1984 and its aftermath. 
But according to a recent New York Times article, what is really weakening the defining symbol of Sikh community in India is just… well, laziness:
*Like many young Sikhs, he found the turban a bother. It got in the way when he took judo classes. Washing his long hair was time-consuming, as was the morning ritual of winding seven yards of cloth around his head. It was hot and uncomfortable.*​And:
The dwindling numbers of turban wearers reflects less a loss of spirituality than encroaching Westernization and the accelerating pace of Indian life, Jaswinder Singh said. 

He puts the start of rapid decline at the mid-1990s, as India began liberalizing its economy, more people began traveling abroad and satellite television arrived in the villages of Punjab. *Working mothers are too rushed to help their sons master the skill of wrapping a turban, he said, and increasingly they just shrug and let them cut their hair.* 

“Everyone is working harder to buy themselves bigger cars,” he said. “They don’t have time to teach their children about the Sikh heroes. Boys take film stars as their idols instead.” (link)​Anecdotally, talking to cousins and other relatives, I’ve had the same impression: young Sikhs in India see the turban and beard as 1) hot and 2) unfashionable. It’s also interesting in this passage that busy working mothers are cited as part of the problem. (Quick poll for the Sikhs reading this: who taught you how to tie your pagri? Many Sikh men I know were taught by women in their families.) 
Though she does have quotes from people who are unhappy about the phenomenon, I must confess that on an emotional level I do find Amelia Gentleman’s article a shade too cheery considering how much anxiety this trend causes amongst traditional Sikhs. Indeed, as the defining symbol of the Sikh tradition declines, it’s hard not to think of the core of the religion as declining as well. 

Oddly, one of the factors named here — India’s hot climate — is less of a factor in places like the U.S., the U.K., and Canada. " unquote

The above article may be approached at :
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/004289.html [cut paste]


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## luv4u (May 21, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

*Gurmat and Hinduism*
Dr Kanwar Ranvir Singh​As we have seen Gurmat is universal mystical revolution. Hinduism is hard to pin down but there are certain fundamental beliefs focusing around a national-political project which has been active in India since the Aryan invasion  three and a half thousand years ago. But whereas the western Aryan belief systems such as the ancient Greek and Roman were changed by the influence of Judaism and Christianity, the eastern Aryans have not made this change, since the earlier attempts of Jainism and Buddhism were effectively marginalised in   India, the land of their birth. There is also a gulf between sramanic beliefs of the indigenous Indians which were later taken over and interpreted by the Aryan priests the brahmins, and brahminism. Sramanic beliefs include devi (the Goddess), music and dance as symbolised by Shiva and Krishna, and the Guru-chela relationship implied in the Upanishads. The brahmin texts include the Rig Veda, Manu and other simritis, shatras, purans, tales of Ram (Ramayana) and Mahabharata. While the sramanic tradition deals with the dynamic tension of opposing forces in the universe (male and female, Guru and apprentice) which exist in the universe and within ourselves, the brahminical deals with social order as expressed in the caste system and the subjection and elimination of forces outside the brahminical social order which hope is expressed in the figure of Kalki, the final incarnation of Vishnu who is yet to come. 
In contrast with Hindus, Sikhs do not accept animistic or polytheistic beliefs. Moreover, its monotheism does not contain any belief in avatars - that God incarnates as a man and dies. Its method of realisation, or soteriology, does not involve renunciation, but rather social transformation through living in reality and social responsibility, both within the inner family unit, the intermediate family (sangat) and humanity. The doctrine of Meeri-Peeri is that spiritual and social transformation are  linked, which is why Sikhs do not believe in the caste system, and believe that women are equal to men. Moreover, Sikhs do not accept the Vedas, Ramayana, Gita, Purans or Laws of Manu but believe in Guru Granth Sahib Ji solely.    
*ONE GOD OR MANY?*

A unique belief of the Sikhs is universal grace. It is that "God" saves everyone, whatever their race, religion, or sex. God is thought of in many ways, as Void, as Zero, as Person, Mother, Father, Lover, Friend, Nature, The Force, Amazing Grace (Wah-Guru) among others. People, however, must be willing to be saved and that means accepting the One as the True Religion. Clearly, this is different from worship of different gods and goddesses. Sikhs do not associate anyone with God. One God is Supreme. The Khalsa is that Sikh who "repeats day and night the name of That One whose Light is Unending, and who does not think of any except God...in whose heart the light of the Perfect One shines, that one is recognised as a complete member of the Khalsa." (First of Thirty-Three Swayyas) Sikhs worship the Creator, not any created. 
The Hindus teach that there are 33 million gods and goddesses. There are some important ones, such as Indra - king of the gods, Vishnu - preserver, Brahma  - creator, Shiva - destroyer. Moreover, some of these are sometimes associated with God, when they are regarded as avatars, or incarnations. Vishnu has many incarnations. Among these the most important are Rama and Krishna. However, two agnostics, the Jain founder, Mahavir and Lord Buddha are alleged incarnations, although this is obviously disputed by members of those religions. Some Hindus also regard Guru Gobind Singh as an incarnation. This seems difficult since the Guru wrote: 
"Say if Krishan were the Ocean of Mercy, why should the hunter's arrow have struck him? If he can save other families, why did he destroy his own? Say why did he who called himself the eternal and the unconceived, enter into the womb of Devaki? Why did he who had no father or mother call Vasudev his father?" (33  Swayyas, no.14.) "Why call Shiv God and why speak of Brahma as God? God is not Ram Chander, Krishan, or Vishnu who you suppose to be lords of the world. Sukhdev, Parasar, and Vyas erred in abandoning the One God and worshipping many gods. All have set up false religions; I in every way believe that there is but One God. (33 Swayyas, no.15) 
This fits with the teaching of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji where Saint Kabir writes: "Beings like Hanuman and Garuda, Indra and Brahma know not, O God Your attributes. The four Vedas, Simritis and Purans, Vishnu and Laksmi know them not. Says Kabir, whoever touches God's feet and seeks Divine shelter shall not wander in reincarnations." (Kabir, Raag Dhanasari). He also clarifies the use of Ram in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. "Kabir, call him Ram who is All-Present; we must make distinction between two 'Rams'. The One Ram is contained in All. Ram Chander is only contained in one thing, himself." (Kabir, Sloks). Ram as a name for God is used by the Sikhs, and as Sunnya (Void), Allah and others. But Ram as Ram Chander is only a created being. Sikhs worship only the One God, and do not associate God with any created being. 
*REVELATION OR MYSTERY?*

The Gurus state that they are not saying anything themselves. Rather God is speaking through them and they are simply the instrument through which God, the True Guru, the Breath of Life blows. The melody of their lives is the result of God's play. "O holy God, by Your Favour it is not I who have been speaking: You have said all that has been said." (Guru Gobind Singh) The same claim is also made for the religious books of the Semitic religions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. All claim that God has sent their books, as do the Sikhs. 
However, the various books of the Hindus have been written by different saints, such as Mahabharata by saint Vyas, the Purans, the Laws of Manu by Manu as their own inspiration, not as the Word of God. The Gita is claimed to be the word of Krishna. However, Krishna claims to be God, not a servant of God. These are called Simriti. The other Hindu writings are Sruti which are claimed to come from the gods, though they were not written down for centuries later. These include the Vedas, which tells us about medicine, the invasion of India by the Aryans and their religion - their main gods, Indra the king, Agni, the fire, and their important ritual, the sacrifice of horses. There is mention of the One in the Upanishads written a thousand years later. Mountain recluses, the rishis who kept uncut hair, wrote these. But they are the writings of the saints intoxicated with God, not the Word sent down by God which is what the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Qu'ran and Bible claim to be. 
The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written in the common language of the people. It includes regional languages such as Bengali and Punjabi, the language of yogis Sanskriti, of Muslims Arabic and Persian, and also Brij Basha which was a lingua franca in northern South Asia in that time. All of these writings were set to music. Some like Raag Maru were favoured by the yogis, other raags by the Muslims, others by indigenous, tribal peoples and some were universal. In this way, God communicated to a whole range of people in their own languages and their own preferred music. The common people of many races, religions, and regions of South Asia and the Middle East could understand the message. The Hindu books were written in Sanskrit, the language of the gods, and only brahmins were allowed to study and interpret the scriptures. The Gurus got rid of the need for intermediaries. 
*DIRECT LINK OR INTERMEDIARY?*

There is no intermediary between the human and God according to the Gurus, but the brahmins are the central feature of the Hindu religion. Without the brahmins there would not be any religion. The gods of the Hindus have changed - Vishnu and Brahma replaced Indra and Agni, and their rituals have changed - from horse sacrifices to vegetarianism under the influence of Buddhism. Their relevant holy books have changed, from the Vedas and Mann to the Mahabharata, Gita and Purans, and their attitudes to violence has changed, from hunters like Ram and Krishan whose dialogue, the Gita, is telling his friend Arjun to kill his relatives, to the non-violence of Gandhi. But the brahmin has been the constant of Hinduism, which is why Hinduism is sometimes termed as brahminism. 
The fundamental belief of the Hindus is the role of the brahmin, for without the brahmin no ritual is complete. Not anyone can become a brahmin. One must be born a brahmin. But Kabir says, "In the womb there is neither family pride nor caste, all beings have been created from the Divine essence. Speak brahmin, when did brahmins originate?...How are you brahmins and we sudras? How were we made of mere blood and you of milk?" The status of the brahmin is fixed in the oldest Hindu scripture, the Rig-Veda. In the Purusa-Sukta, verse 12, we are told that the sacrifice of the first man led to "His mouth became the brahmin...and from his feet the sudras are born." In this shabad in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji Kabir is challenging the Hindu religious belief with the Sikh belief that all have come from One God and so all humanity is One. Guru Gobind Singh taught, “Recognise all humankind as One.” 
The caste system is based on race. "Varnas" means colour. The top race is the brahmin, the second is the warrior - kashatri, then the skilled worker, unskilled worker, then the untouchables, dalits, who are the descendants of those conquered by the Aryans. Caste determined your profession, your position in society, whether you could worship - dalits were excluded from Hindu temples. The Gurus condemned caste as meaningless, and caste has played no part in Sikh history, religious or political. 
*WOMEN*

According to the Gurus, God dwells in everyone as a fragrance in flower, reflection in a mirror, or fire in wood, so everyone is equal for all partake in God's society of love. Women and men are equal according to the Gurus. They can take part in all religious events as keertanees (hymn singers), granthis (looking after Guru Granth Sahib Ji), or in panj piyaras (in Khande-de-Pahul ceremony - initiation by Guru Khalsa Panth). They have their own names from birth till death - Kaur, meaning Princess. They do not use their father's name and husband's name which means that they belong to these men. If they have entered the Khalsa they should know self-defence and defence of the weak and helpless, if necessary, by use of the kirpan - sword of mercy - in the Sikh martial art - gatka. Sikhism is a feminist religion. 
This differs from the Hindu legal scripture, the Code of Manu 5: 147-9. "By a girl, by a young woman, or even by an aged one, nothing must be done independently, even in her own house. In childhood a female must be subject to her father, in youth to her husband, when her lord (husband) is dead to her sons; a woman must never be independent. She must not seek to separate herself from her father, husband or sons; by leaving them she would make both her own and her husband's families contemptible." 
*TREATMENT OF DIFFERENT RELIGIONS*

Hindu belief is that "It cannot be said that Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism are separate religions. All these four faiths and their offshoots are one. Hinduism is an ocean into which all the rivers run. It can absorb Islam and Christianity and all other religions and only then can it become the ocean." Mahatma Gandhi, (Collected Works, Vol. 90, p.177). 
By way of contrast, the Sikhs prefer pluralism. Sikh belief is that "The Teacher of teachers is One, though manifesting in different ways. The Way, which praises the Name is the Way of ways. Follow that way which glorifies God. Pause and reflect. Just as seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks and months are derived from One sun, as are the seasons, so, says Nanak, God is One but manifests in different religions." Guru Granth Sahib Ji, daily bedtime prayer) 
The natural result of this pluralism is the Bhagat Bani, which is part of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The bhagats were saints who lived before the Gurus, but who preached the way of the Name. From their own spiritual experiments they had found the limits of the beliefs, rituals, and disciplines of the various religions. Their conclusion was that Truth was most easily realised by looking for Divine Support which was open to any who looked for it whatever their race, religion, or sex. A person had to turn their focus away from "I" to "You". Instead of facing the ego, they should turn the face - "mukh" towards WaheGuru, from "munmukh" (facing ego) to "Gurmukh" (facing Grace). Thus, some of the bhagats were Muslims, Tantric Buddhists, etc. and some rejected all religious identities. The inclusion of the Bhagat Bani in the Sikh Scripture by the Gurus is the Sikh way of manifesting the transcendental unity of religions but also respect for the genuine differences of multiple  religious traditions, the forms of the Formless. 
http://www.sikhwomen.com/sikhism/gurmat_and_hinduism.htm


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## luv4u (May 28, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

The following link also provides some useful information about Sikhism and may be referred to. 

[xml-dev] Hate crimes against Sikh Community......


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## Vikram singh (May 28, 2007)

vinod said:


> *Sikhism is an Adoption of Hinduism*
> 
> I consider sikhism as an alteration and bady of Hindu religion with nothing original in it.It is a copy of the Hindu religion.
> The following article has been taken from one of ongoing post.
> ...


Vinod jeee

It is very intersting that you have very little Knowledge of Sikhism, I will give you lot of Sikhism Knowlege,but before i get down to it,i want to tell you about or infact you can help me put some light on Hinduism, some question i want to ask you

Hindu always criticize,condemn and mock at other religion,their criticism and mocking is unreasonable and unacceptable.
In his autobiography Dr. Charles an American scholar says that it is very simple to define a Hindu.,he says a Hindu means " one who believe in anything and everything it said in the name of God and shall never question its authenticity.

The Hindu claims that lord Rama is incarnated (came in human form) to study and understand the difficulties of mankind.Its is really necessary for a God to incarnate Himself ?? 
Can he not understand the creations,why should God become a donkey or a {censored}roach in order to understand the suffering of these creations,
*LORD RAMA*

Lord Rama is the central character to the Epic RAMAYAN (whose author was Valmiki) Rama is the son of Dasharath, the king of Banaras. Dasharath had three wives, kaushalya, kaikeyi and Smitra besides several hundreds concubines. 

According to the Ramayana, Rama spent most of his life trying to save his wife, Sita from the clutches of Ravan At the same time Rama was enjoying life to the full at every opportunity

*12 YEARS FOR RAMA, BUT ONE DAY TO RAVAN *

T*o retrieve his wife from Devil Ravan, god Rama sought the help of Hanuman, a monkey god. Hanuman agreed to help Rama bring his wife back on condition that god Rama in turn help him (Hanuman) to kill his twin brother prior to undertaking the mission. *

*I took more than twelve years for Hanuman to build a bridge and accomplish the task while Ravan just took Sita and flew to Sri lanka in just one day's time Where is the bridge that Rama built?? Who is more powerful - God Rama or Devil Ravan ? Would a god seek the help of another god to murder a third god? *

*If Hanuman could fly carrying big mountains, he should have in the first instance carried and flown god Rama to Sri Lanka, which would have resulted in early rescue of Sita. *
*Who knows what Ravan might have done to Sita during this period of twelve years? Definitely a devil would have done only "devilish" things! *
*Before helping god Rama, Hanuman made Rama shoot his own twin brother in the back and only then did Hanuman help god Rama How can a "god" indulge in such a criminal act for personal gain? *


There Is Lot More To Come,i Have A Lot Of Knowledge Of Hinduism, I Will Put Thousand And Thousand Question, Either You Will Understand Hinduism,or You Will Become Sikh

RAMA'S MANY WIVES 
Mr. C.R. Sreenivasa lyengar's translation of Valmiki Ramayana says: " Though Rama had married Sita to be the queen, he married many other wives for sexual pleasure in accordance with the royal customs. (Ayodha Kandam 8th Chapter, page 28). (The term "Rama's wives" as been used in many places in Ramayan).

*RAMA'S CONTEMPT FOR WOMEN & LOW CASTES *

*Rama disfigured and mutilated many women by cutting off her noses, breasts, ears etc., and tortured them (Soorpanaki, Ayomuki). *

*Rama said, "Women should not be trusted" and that "Secrets should not be confided to the wife" (Ayodhya kandam, Chapter 100). *

*Sambuka was slain (by Rama) because he was making penance which was forbidden to hime by Vedas as he was a "Shudra" (Uttara kanadam, Chapter 76). *

*Looking at is hand Rama said the Sanskirt slogan "O right hand, you kill this Asche Shudra unhesitatingly as killing this Shudra is the only way to get back the life of the deceased Brahmin boy." *

*Are you not one of the limbs of Rama? (Valmiki Ramayana) *
*Note: This Rama, who mercilessly took away the life of Sambuka for no other fault than that of making penance, is held as the Avatar (incarnation) of Vishnu (God)! If there were kings like Rama alive now, alas! what would be the plight of those who are called "Shudras?".*


----------



## venod (May 28, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Respected Vikram ji,

My previous account is blocked by the web and I have no intention to hurt the feelings Of my friends. If you  like to have a discussion  please state that you shall like to discuss. I am the last one to  trouble you people.

 Regards


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## venod (May 29, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

I do not want to attack anyone or any Guru ji. I want to disuss religion -sprituality with a sharp focus on Granth Sahib, Gita , Sikhi and other concepts including the revival and resurrection Of sikhi for this religion is totally misunderstood by the westerners. 

Your religion Discard GITA, that is the root book on soul/karma/ conscience and consciousness and many other things that we share in common in sikhi as well. For the kind information I am giving below the quotes of some of the philosphers. It is book on philosphy and not of any theological interpretations.Why SGPC has rejected it is not known to me. But studying anything will do no harm. Kindly enjoy the followings Mr. Vikram ji.[ Do participate if you can maintain the cool. I do not want to befriend anyone.

Guru ji has said.:

"Naal Eanei dosti Kadi na Aani Raas"

*Namaskaram.*

Some quotes from famous personalities across the world: 


*Albert Einstein* "When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous." 

*Aldous Huxley *"The Bhagavad-Gita is the most systematic statement of spiritual evolution of endowing value to mankind. It is one of the most clear and comprehensive summaries of perennial philosophy ever revealed; hence its enduring value is subject not only to India but to all of humanity." 

*Mahatma Gandhi* "When doubts haunt me, when disappointments stare me in the face, and I see not one ray of hope on the horizon, I turn to Bhagavad-gita and find a verse to comfort me; and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming sorrow. Those who meditate on the Gita will derive fresh joy and new meanings from it every day." *Henry David Thoreau* "In the morning I bathe my intellect in the stupendous and cosmogonal philosophy of the Bhagavad-gita, in comparison with which our modern world and its literature seem puny and trivial." 

*Dr. Albert Schweitzer* "The Bhagavad-Gita has a profound influence on the spirit of mankind by its devotion to God which is manifested by actions." 

*Carl Jung* "The idea that man is like unto an inverted tree seems to have been current in by gone ages. The link with Vedic conceptions is provided by Plato in his Timaeus in which it states 'behold we are not an earthly but a heavenly plant.' This correlation can be discerned by what Krishna expresses in chapter 15 of Bhagavad-Gita."

*Herman Hesse* "The marvel of the Bhagavad-Gita is its truly beautiful revelation of life's wisdom which enables philosophy to blossom into religion." 


*Ralph Waldo Emerson* "I owed a magnificent day to the Bhagavad-gita. It was the first of books; it was as if an empire spoke to us, nothing small or unworthy, but large, serene, consistent, the voice of an old intelligence which in another age and climate had pondered and thus disposed of the same questions which exercise us."


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## simpy (May 29, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

*Respected Saadh Sangat ji,*

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Angad Dev Ji De Bachan-*



*nwil ieAwxy dosqI kdy n AwvY rwis ]*
*jyhw jwxY qyho vrqY vyKhu ko inrjwis ]*
*vsqU AMdir vsqu smwvY dUjI hovY pwis ]*
*swihb syqI hukmu n clY khI bxY Ardwis ]*
*kUiV kmwxY kUVo hovY nwnk isPiq ivgwis ]*


*As long as one practice all the falsehood and keep comparing and degrading others........ what can one find in return-THE SAME...................And then it feels odd, isn't it. **The evaluation done by others hurts and then the nindak seeks support of only those who are of the same thought. Everybody else bothers such a fool. And Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib says about the friendship of the nindaks-*

*lwlc JUT ibkwr moh ieAw sMpY mn mwih ]*
*lµpt cor inMdk mhw iqnhU sMig ibhwie ]*

*As only these kind will support such thoughts :hmm:*

*Can only pray for such fools  Waheguru eho jehan nu sumat bakhshe.*

*AvKD sBy kIiqAnu inMdk kw dwrU nwih ]
Awip Bulwey nwnkw pic pic jonI pwih ]*
*let us pray for SARBAT DA BHALAA*


*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Harjap Khalsa (May 29, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Every Scripture is supposed to turn  the inverted heart-lotus upright. Vinod/Venod ji, just praises from other authors are not of any use if you are not following the truth depicted by the scripture, doesn’t matter it is Gita or any other one. Ambrosial Nectar is trickling down within every body- only purity can feel it, and purity comes in by following the pure word not by criticizing and demeaning the followers of purity or the pure itself(irrespective of the form). 

Everybody goes to that house where he has faith, no other place can satisfy him. You can wander in all ten directions for ever- without faith there is nothing and faith can never be explained. It is a bessing, not a stolen commodity.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 29, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Vinod/Venod..... ji

Can you please enlighten me on the following:-

1.Who wrote Gita?

2.Was it written by one person, many or 'God'?

3.When was it written?

4.How long did it take to put it together?

5.What was the reason and need behind the writings of Gita?

6.Talking about good family values, would you allow your own mother and/or sister to become Gopis and have fun with Krishan ji if he were still alive today?

7.Are Judaism, Christanity and Islam the same one religion or 3 different religions and what's their origin?

Only after you respond the above we can lay the foundation of discussing this topic regarding Sikhi, which by the way is not a religion but a way of life of which we can interact about later.

Thanks

Tejwant


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## tarlochan singh (May 29, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

DEAR VINOD JI
WAHE GURU JI KA KHALSA
WAHE GURU JI KI FATHE

COULD YOU PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME AS TO:
1. IS HINDUISM A RELEGION, IF SO HOW IS IT DEFINED.
2. WHAT ARE THE VEDAS.
3. CAN YOU OR OTHER HINDUS REALY BELEIVE THE MYTHOLOGY OF VEDS,
PURANS, SIMRTI'S.
4.WHY DO THE HINDUS FEEL THREATEND BY SIKHS/SIKHISM.
   WHY SO MUCH HATRED FOR THE PEOPLE WHO OVER THE LAST FIVE HUNDRED SAVED THE HINDU RELEGION OVER AND OVER.  
I AM SURE YOU KNOW THE HISTORY MORE THAN ME, WHY WAS IT POSSIBLE FOR A FEW THOUSAND SIKHS TO ERADICATE THE PROBLEM, WHICH HAD DOGGED INDIA FOR 700 YEARS,AS YOU MAY WELL KNOW THAT THE HINDUS COULD NOT EVEN PROTECT THEIR OWN WOMEN LET ALONE LOOK AFTER THE TEMPLE(BABARI MASJID,SOMNATH). I WONDER WHY THE HINDUS  DIDN'T FORGET THAT. 
GURU JI RIGHTLY SAID YOU CANNOT BEFRIEND A SNAKE NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU FEED IT MILK.
*MADH VICH RIDA PAI KE KUUTE DA MAAS,*
*TARIA MANAAS KHOOPRI TIS MANDI VAAS*
*RAET PARIAA KAPDAA  KAR KAJAN TAAS*
*TAK LE CHALI CHURRI  KAR BHOG BILAAS*
*AKHE SUNIE PUCHIA LAAHE VISHVAAS*
*NADRI PAVE AKIRTKAAN MAAT HOE VENAAS.* 

PLEASE DON'T BE OFFENDED
*NA KO VARRI*
*NAHII BEGANA*

TARLOCHAN.


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## pritpal_singh (May 30, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

HOW ARE YOU KEEPING SO MUCH VENOM AND HATRED INSIDE YOU. LET GO OF IT AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE OR IT SHALL TAKE YOUR LIFE.

1) REGARDING YOUR POINT OF THE INACTIVITY OF THE SIKHS AND THEY BEING A LOAD TO SOCIETY :- MY DEAR FRIEND, HOW COULD YOU BE SO FOOLISH ENOGH TO EXPRESS YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ON SUCH AN OPEN FORUM. IF YOU HAVE THE MIND FOR IT, GO AND STUDY THE HISTORY OF INDIA AND HOW THROUGH THE GREEN REVOLUTION PUNJAB HAS UPLIFTED THE INDIAN ECONOMY ON THE INTERNATIONAL MARKET.

2) IF REMEMBERING THE SUPREME GOD IS A WASTE OF TIME, THEN I PITY YOU MR. VINOD WHO IS SO DETACHED FROM HIS CREATOR THAT YOU CAN’T FIND THE TIME TO THANK AND REMEMBER THE ONE WHO CREATED YOU AND PROVIDED YOU WITH ALL THAT YOU HAVE. I HOPE YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU WERE INDEED CREATED BY GOD AND THAT YOU DIDI NOT CREATE YOURSELF, BECAUSE THAT SORT OF HAUGTINESS IS REFLECTED IN YOUR THOUGHTS. AND FOR YOUR KIND INFORMATION THIS WORLD AND EVERYTHING IN IT WILL INDEED COME TO AN END, DON’T WORRY ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT IS THE SUPREME TRUTH. THE ONE WHO CREATED IT SHALL DESTROY IT. 

3) ABOUT THE BEARD MR. VINOD, I HOPE YOU HAVE THE GENERAL KNOWLEDGE TO KNOW THAT ALL THE MALES OF ALL THE SPECIES INHABITING THIS PLANET HAVE BEEN ADORNED WITH MORE BEAUTY AND PERSONALITY THAN THE FEMALE. LOOK AT THE BEARDED LION, THE KING OF THE JUNGLE. DOESN’T HE LOOK IMPOSING. THE LIONESS DOES NOT STAND A CHANCE IN FRONT OF HIM. IT WOULD NOT BE WRONG TO SAY THAT WITHOUT BEARDS ALL MEN RESEMBLE WOMEN.

4) OUR GURUS COULD NOT BE SAVED BECAUSE THEY DID NOT WANT TO BE SAVED. THEY WERE MATRYRS WHO SACRIFICE THEIR LIVES FOR THEIR BELIEFS. IF YOU MR. VINOD HAVE TO GUTS FOR SACRIFICE, TRY SENDING YOUR SON TO THE ARMED FORCES.

ACTUALLY I THINK YOU ARE A DISILLUSIONED SIKH, TRYING TO COMMIT HARAKIRI. DON’T DESPISE OTHERS OR ELSE YOU SHALL HAVE TO BEAR THE BURDEN OF THIS SIN FOR I DON’T KNOW HOW MANY MORE LIVES, BECAUSE OUR BANI SAYS THAT THE ONE WHO DESPISES OTHERS RECIEVE S NO RESPECT IN THIS WORLD AS WELL AS THE WORLD HE SHALL BE TRANSCENDED TO AFTER DEATH.
MY DEAR FRIEND CALM DOWN AND TRY TO STUDY SIKHISM DEEPLY. IT IS THE MOST SIMPLE AND UNSOPHISTICATED RELIGION ON THIS PLANET. IT’S CONCEPT OF KIRT KARNA (EARNING FROM EARNEST LABOUR AND NOT BY CHEATING), VAND-SHAKNA (SHARING YOUR EARNING WITH THE NEEDY) AND NAAM-JAPNA (FOR SPIRITUAL UPLIFTING) IS THE MOST SCIENTIFIC CONCEPT. WE FEEL PROUD AND LUCKY TO BE BLESSED FROM BIRTH WITH SUCH BELIEFS.


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## Amarpal (May 30, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Dear Khalsa Ji,

Sikh religion is not an adaptation of Hindu religion. 

There is some beliefs that are common between these two religions viz Laws of Karma, rebirth which incorporates the concept of Atman. This is in fact common toall the religions that sprung in India including Buddhism and Jainism.

This way Sikh religion is part of Bharatiya Culture but as I have said earlier is not part of Hindu religion.

Sikh religion des not recognizes Varna-Ashram that is the basic aspect of Hindu religion.

Sikhism conceptualizes God as formless, timeless and does not take birth. Hindu religion does not conceptualize. Siri Bhagvatam gives the age and the life span of current Brahma, In Bhagwat Gita Siri Krishna says that he created Varna-Ashrams. Hindu Gods take birth and Die, they are called incarnations. We in Sikh religion have Gurus; none of them said that they are Gods.

Sikh religion believes in one God but Hindu religion has multiplicity in Gods.

I can go on telling much more why Sikh religion is a separate independent religion, but I think it is not necessary to do so here.  

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh


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## japjisahib04 (May 30, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

MY DEAR FRIEND CALM DOWN AND TRY TO STUDY SIKHISM DEEPLY. IT IS THE MOST SIMPLE AND UNSOPHISTICATED RELIGION ON THIS PLANET. IT’S CONCEPT OF KIRT KARNA (EARNING FROM EARNEST LABOUR AND NOT BY CHEATING), VAND-SHAKNA (SHARING YOUR EARNING WITH THE NEEDY) AND NAAM-JAPNA (FOR SPIRITUAL UPLIFTING) IS THE MOST SCIENTIFIC CONCEPT. WE FEEL PROUD AND LUCKY TO BE BLESSED FROM BIRTH WITH SUCH BELIEFS.
Permit me to complete kirt karna (earning from earnest labour and not by cheating). It actually means earning from earnest labour and not by cheating like invoking powers of deities (jadu tuna) through havan in order to take what rightfully belongs to other, cheat, and mesmerize and earn through illegal means.
Regards Sahni Mohinder


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## venod (May 31, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*







I acknowledge with thanks and humility the posts, of  S.Vikram ji, Harjap ji, S. Pritpal ji, Vahe Guruseeker ji , S. Amar pal ji and Japji Sahib004 ji with thanks as these all illuminating in their own way. I am in my own way putting forth the practices of Hinduism for your benefit. I shall also enclose here with a fact sheet from the site or provide a link address of some site that would present you with an objective knowledge of Hinduism and faith and belief.

The main differences in the two religions, as has been stated, appears to be Varn- ashram and the form of God that is stated to be form-less. These are also called as Incarnations . We can discuss the concepts of the Kirat karna, meditation and ‘Vand ke Chakna’. It is my duty to get you acquainted with the conceptual framework . I have understood that you want to convey. These are the teachings for a sikh. But I do not know to what extent these are practiced , anyway , you may go thru. the following.


*Varan Ashram*


Varan Ashrams , would mean  that 'Manu' had divided the society in four kinds of people like 1.Brahmin/pandit, 2.Kshatriya 3. Vaishya and  4. Shudras/ Low- caste. There were reasons when this demarcation was done for the smooth sail of society. The system had worked very well over the centuries but over a long passage of time it was institutionalized as a caste system and did harm the _Shudras_ who over a period of time were known to be untouchables. These people have been recognized and Indian Government has passed special and specific legislations from time to time for the improvement of the lot by enacting laws for scheduled caste and schedules tribes and other backward classes. Efforts and being taken .It will take some time that the equilibrium would be restored and there would be equi-distribution of the income. In any case it is more of a socio-economic problem and is addressed by those concerned. Nothing in the religion should be anachronistic else it will not find the subscriber to the theory. It is concluded that there were system whereby society was classified into groups the purpose of which was to permit the smooth running of the society. It was a social arrangement that the society was divided. It was based on division of labor and the economic theory of ‘relative disadvantages’. However, there ae no classifications. Globalisation has taken roots in this country as well. Religion for Hindus, have taken a back seat for quite sometime. I do repeat that we do not visit temple just for the sake of visiting .This used to be the case about 2/3 decades earlier. The method of worship is simplified. About 80 /90 percent of the Hindus do not worship Dieties except on occasion like Deepawali or Janashtami. Diety worship is limited to temples only. Only those who have the time do visit. It is not mandatory for a Hindu to visit a temple. I do not remember when I have visited temple last with my familty. I have no diety installed in my house. Yes, we keep Dhoop/ Agarbatti for the evening as it has a positive affect when we offer our prayers in our fashion. Some time we chant in the evening:

‘_Om Jai Jagdish Hare…Swami Jai Jagdish Hare……”_ 
[ It can be a sort of ‘shabad keertan of sikhs]

Things are changing fast. The opening up of economy has offered new challenges and opportunities as well. One need not go to USA. A professor in MBA institute of engineering Institute can now make about a million Rs per annum.
*Naam*

For most of us Om is a 'naam'


*Multiplicity Of Gods *


Regarding form of the Gods, it is to be appreciated that it is within the over all Monoeteism that there is one universal supreme soul that the polyetheism format of the Godhead theology took place. There are many demi-God or Demi-Goddesses . People started worshipping the type of the attribute or the particular attribute that was so essential for them that they named that attribute. In some cases where women had to fight men against injustice, one started praying the Kali or Ma Vaishno Devi and so the demi god and goddesses took birth. The diety concept is also based on this account that one has to differentiate one’s G from another G and hence one thought of sculpturing the God. 

Another important dimension to the Diety is that it was easy for one to conceptualise the presence of the Divine as one could see. There is no other purpose. There are some ritualistic worships on the occasion of birth/naming ceremony/entering a new house/ Marriage and allied. I hope you must be having some of these as per your faith.
It was convenient and that is how the society grew over a passage of time. It is how a faith travels over a time that certain aberrations start appearing and become as protuberances. 
There are certain distortions that keep on creeping in any institutions till they raise their black head with such a potency that it takes the form of an evil that, if uncontrolled, goes out of control. It was this evil that Guru Nanak observed and did not include in the religion. But then all the religions have their plus and minus points.


*One universal Soul / God*


Hindus do believe that there is one universal soul [_Parmatman_] and the rest of the souls _[Atman]_ are also as eternal as the universal soul as Sikhs do believe. The three attributes of God, creator/ sustainer and destructor are represented by Three gods called _Braham, _Vishnu and Shiva. Gurbani do sustain/states this. We call that one Great as _Brahman _or some do prefer it as _Brahma. __The concept Of one universal soul is as old as the religion. However, the society tends to see only that part of the entity that is suitable and conveniently avoid the other. The trinity God concept is a representative of the three most important attributes and hence instead of saying /naming them these have been stated separately. You may consider as it suits you. For us it is not significant. It may be significant for a temple where only Shiv Devotees visit._


*Purpose of life: To Meet HIM*


Yes, it is true that Hinduism is the most tolerant religion and this has led to the Islamilisation as most of the Hindus are basically not used to aggressions. During the Mogul period there were many conversions and the killings of the Hindus. 

The purpose of Life of Hindu is To raise oneself spiritually raised to a level that one becomes pure and finally be to the level that one can Call Ahm Brahm. [ I am like Him i.e. after purification of the soul to the level required that it is likely to merge with the Supreme soul.] One can quote from Geeta that is a source book for Hindus.

We have adopted many of _Kabeer’s Dohay __to explain things. The one commonly used :_

*Guru  Gobind  dooway Kharay..*

* Kake Lago Payee …*

*Balihari Guru  Aapno  jin Gobind diyo Milay.’*



_We do have Satsangs. Holy congregations .Some meet daily while other meet on once a week basis. There is again no rigidity._

*Incarnations*


_Many do believe that Some Gods are incarnations of the Lord, the Almighty. Let it be. I am giving you the line taken from sikh-site that Nanak Sahib was a prophet/Incarnation and even a God._


Quote
“Sri Guru Nanak Sahib was the incarnation of the Lord Almighty,a prophet, a Jagat Guru from His very birth. He did not, therefore, need the guidance, aid or help of a wordly Guru. He was a born Param Guru, Jagat Guru, Guru Eternal, Supreme Guru. He was a Maker and Producer of Gurus-Divine. He was the Aad and Jugad Guru. As there is no count before one and before God, so is Sri Guru Nanak Sahib, the Supreme Jagat Guru. From this Guru Supreme has again emerged The Guru Eternal in the form of Sri Guru Granth Sahib radiating the Eternal Glory of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji[1].” 
Unquote

_I do not want to argue on this aspect as to who He was and that He was is enough, whether he was Incarnate or a prophet is meaningless for the discussion till it is agreed to that HE was not himself The Almighty. _

_You may kindly state as to what are the major points of difference of Sikhism from Hinduism except the minor points that are so peculiar to some points. The 5ks need not be stated as a point of difference as we all know that these are there for the purpose of making you appear different.Bana].It wouldbe appreciated that we discuss the pointsat macro level. _

_In my opinion ,Sirs, nothing and no one is bad and all religions especially the religions of east shouldhave the common Goal. Sikhism is the closest to Hinduism as you must have seen above. You are ,ofcourse, to correct me._


_With Regards to all._


[1]http://www.srigurugranthsahib.org/guru-nanak/index.htm


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## Tejwant Singh (May 31, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Venod Ji,

Guru Fateh.

 Lets be frank and open and honest about things as we are all truthseekers. It is not a good debating skill when you ignore the questions asked.
We can only discuss the difference between the two religions when you are ready to respond about the questions put to you about your own religion.

So please be brave and respond them one by one and as you are at it, 

can you also give us the details about the episode of Dropti and Pandavs in Gita?

Thanks again and  donot  show reluctance in seeking.

Tejwant


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## venod (Jun 1, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Sorry Tejwant ji, 

I do not know where and who Drupti was. She is not a character of Gita. She appears in Epic of Mahabharta. Like wise Raam was incarnation or a prophet, it matters a little. Similary it matters not if Guru Nanak was a prophet or an incarnation. He was a great saint and a spritual teacher. I cannot say more than this. Yes, He said _Dhur ki Bani._....I have no doubt about it. He has a great reverence and we all love Him here. We do have a calender in our home. 


The beliefs of Hindu thought are varied, and have been expounded upon by saints and writers throughout the centuries. Some of the salient elements of hindu beliefs are presented here. I have put in all the efforts nonetheless there may be mistakes[1]. Enjoy! 
Do tell me if your ‘Wahe-guru’ and ‘My God’ are different. They can never be and were never so as He is _Saibhang_. Oh my dear friends why have you closed yourself. Come home. We all need you… my dear brothers. Let us not be swayed by the politicians and the middlemen to the God for there cannot be any like this. The road to His home is wide and clear. What is not, cannot be and what is, cannot be what it is not. God is always one and was like this only. Whether He understands ‘Om’ or ‘Ong’ it matters a little, all that matter is that we did our duty. Sikhs are the most beautiful human beings but have closed themselves into a shell. Try to break it. Make your presence felt. After being with you for a small time I am convinced that Sikhi is the greatest gift to mankind and most fortunate are those who are blessed with this. Good- bye to you, my trusted friends, we knew each other since we were nine or ten. I am happy here reading my new found spritual teachers Gita and SGGS. See you if ordained.

Enjoy this also.
My quest is over. I have found some answer to a broken chain of thoughts.


_Awal Alla Noor Upaya Kudrat de Sab bande,_
_Ek noor tey sab jag upajaiya Kaun bhale kaun mande._
_Awal Alla………………………….._


The following is also applicable to  Sikhs as well. My blood is as red as yours. I have all tools and attachments as are provided in the workshop of God. 'My God' cannot be a better mechanic than 'wahegur.' Let them enjoy their creation and let us enjoy His creation.With thisnote I beg your leave.........
*On Creation:*
The universe exists in endless cycles of creation, preservation and destruction. There is no absolute end to the world. 
*On The True God:*
There is but one true and absolute Self, Supreme Being. God is pure Love. 
*On Paths to God:*
Man is free to choose his form of worship, for all paths lead ultimately to God. Sin is only of the mind; Soul ispure. 
*On Man's Plight:*
Man's suffering is but his soul's immaturity. He is on a progressive path which leads from ignorance to knowledge, from death to immortality. 
*On Evil:*
There is no intrinsic evil. All is good. All is God. 
*On Virtue and Salvation:*
Virtuous conduct and light belief are the foundation of religious life. Liberation requires knowledge and personal attainment. 
*On Doctrines:*
Doctrines tend to be subtle, complex and even paradoxical. Freedom to worship and to believe in a variety of ways is predominant. 
*On Enlightenment:*
The goals of enlightenment and liberation are to be found in this life, within man himself. 
*On Sainthood:*
The path to saintliness is through self-discipline, purification, concentration, and contemplation. Value is placed on ascetic ideals, individual sadhana, and yoga. 

Lovingly 
Venod
You may send posts to reply to this. But I now consider it as a wastage of time to do this type of intellectualisations. 
[1] It is standard article sent to you for knowing that no two religion will tell different things. It is our modern interpreters who would be responsible for this.Sorry for mistakes.


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## simpy (Jun 1, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

*Respected Vinod/Venod Ji,*



			
				Venod said:
			
		

> God is always one and was like this only. Whether He understands ‘Om’ or ‘Ong’ it matters a little, all that matter is that we did our duty. Sikhs are the most beautiful human beings but have closed themselves into a shell. Try to break it. Make your presence felt. After being with you for a small time I am convinced that Sikhi is the greatest gift to mankind and most fortunate are those who are blessed with this.


 
*Sikhs presence is felt for sure- no wonder many are after this religion to destroy it from its roots, THIS CANNOT HAPPEN WITHOUT SOMEBODY FEELING THE VERY STRONG PRESENCE MY VEER. If there is no presence, who cares?????? *

*AS ME NEECH SAID BEFORE MY DEAR VEER- *
*SIKH DE KOL ANMOL KHAZAANA HAI BANI DA, and anybody and everybody is able to use it.....*

*'Bani Nirankaar' what a true Sikh has, Our Guru's have showered us with such a precious gift, NOBODY IN THE WORLD HAS Something like IT SIR........*

*if Sikhs dont have anything, then why Sikhs have been attacked, killed, exploited and looted by the Indian Goverment and other Sikh Haters in 80s and before as well as after, why there was an attack on Akaal Takht, KOI TA KHAZAANA HAI that's making others jealous of SIKHS or MAY BE AFRAID OF US 'SIKHS'. OTHERWISE WHY ALL THIS?????? *
*i**ts not our ZEROism but our HEROism that is bothering others....*

_*IN 500 YEARS WE ARE THIS(inspite of all hidden backbiting and Attacks and looting from anti sikhs, inspite of the attempts to destroy Sikh History), IMAGINE IN ANOTHER 500 YEARS.............................*_



*dear veer Vinod/venod ji, me neech suggest you to open your closed mind and believe your own line-"*Sikhi is the greatest gift to mankind and most fortunate are those who are blessed with this"


*endless thanks to you.....*

*one another thing, when a person's quest is over as you say-*


			
				Venod said:
			
		

> My quest is over



*me neech believe that this should be a state of complete peace, WELL CONGRATULATIONS FROM THE CORE OF MY HEART FOR REACHING THAT STATE OF BEING AND SHARING YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ALL OF US......*

*please stay around to help other lost souls , may somebody needs guidance from a SAINTLY SOUL like YOURSELF.........*

*can these be the words of such a SOUL-*



			
				Venod said:
			
		

> I am not interested in indulging in somethiong that may not be palatable. However, I do point out the significance of standardisation. In the last post Harjas ji has stated that ' Wahegur' and 'ek ongkar, satnaam....Gurprasad.' are same.
> 
> If it is so then 'Wahegur' is also guru mantar.
> Ekong kar ...Satinam.......Gurparsad.......is Mool mantar.
> ...


 
*still lost in STANDARDISATIONS *
*still lost in others presence!!!!!!!!*
*still lost in the queston of agree/not agree??????*
*still lost in naming the ALLMIGHTY *
*still not sure about GURMANTRA................................... *


*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## roopk (Jun 1, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

*Quote from Vinod ji's Post No.54 *
Do tell me if your ‘Wahe-guru’ and ‘My God’ are different. They can never be and were never so as He is _Saibhang_. God is always one and was like this only. Whether He understands ‘Om’ or ‘Ong’ it matters a little, all that matter is that we did our duty. Sikhs are the most beautiful human beings but have closed themselves into a shell.

_Awal Alla Noor Upaya Kudrat de Sab bande,_
_Ek noor tey sab jag upajaiya Kaun bhale kaun mande._
_Awal Alla………………………….." _

The following is also applicable to Sikhs as well. My blood is as red as yours. I have all tools and attachments as are provided in the workshop of God. 'My God' cannot be a better mechanic than 'wahegur.' Let them enjoy their creation and let us enjoy His creation.
*Unquote*

One Of the most beautiful post That I have ever seen Venod ji.


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## singh is king (Jun 1, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

ssa vinod ji

before proceeding i want to clarify:

(1) How many Gods/Goddesses hinduism have? plz provide names

(2) How many sacred books hinduism have? plz provide names

After that I will show ya how sikhism is different from hinduism coz only after that you can know the greatness of sikhi

Endless Thanks


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## kds1980 (Jun 1, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*



> Do tell me if your ‘Wahe-guru’ and ‘My God’ are different. They can never be and were never so as He is Saibhang. God is always one and was like this only. Whether He understands ‘Om’ or ‘Ong’ it matters a little, all that matter is that we did our duty. Sikhs are the most beautiful human beings but have closed themselves into a shell.
> 
> Awal Alla Noor Upaya Kudrat de Sab bande,
> Ek noor tey sab jag upajaiya Kaun bhale kaun mande.
> ...



these quotes look's really good on forums,books,newspaper etc.but the main test is real life.in 1984 when indira gandhi was shot dead by a sikh,5000 innocent sikhs were mercilessly killed
all over india and after these killings rajiv gandhi won 400 seats in elections
in 1991 rajiv gandhi was killed by a tamilian hindu.did any innocent tamilian was killed
after his death.
i know you will say that congress is not a pro hindutva party to which i agree with but the main question is why they killed 5000innocent sikhs after the death of indira gandhi and why not even a single tamilian hindu was killed after the killing of rajiv gandhi ?
if majority of hindu's really beleive that there is no difference between a sikh's blood and a
hindu's blood then why they voted for congress in power after the 1984 killings?


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## singh is king (Jun 1, 2007)

*Re: Sikhism : An old wine in -New Bottle*

Majority:}8-: feel JEALOUS with Sikhs CHARDHI KALA coz Sikhs are Genious


kds1980 said:


> .
> i know you will say that congress is not a pro hindutva party to which i agree with but the main question is why they killed 5000innocent sikhs after the death of indira gandhi and why not even a single tamilian hindu was killed after the killing of rajiv gandhi ?
> ?


 ​


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## roopk (Jun 1, 2007)

There is nothing to feel so great ,all that we have done is to make a serious person run away. Would you all please tell me as to why when Khushwant singh tells that sikhs are only 'keshdhari hindus' ,that we choose to be silient. And mind it his viewrship is in millions much more than some active members here. We are all quiet when he says that bani is taken from Upnishidas. We have nothiong to state anything ion that case as we shall all have to rise and fight it out. But here we are fighting with a person who may be interested in our religion. It is better for us if some of you fight it out with Khushwant singh. But then he knows a lot as it is his business to know and scandalize, and we cannot save ourself.

we shouild remember any person whom sikhi is told is likely to get the message of Guru sahib. 

But some feel different though.


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## roopk (Jun 2, 2007)

I am giving below the link that discusses the sikhi as per Khushwant singh. I shall like to know if anyone of us has done something about it. Anyone mean any one out of us.

The Voice of Sikh Youth > Important : Khushwant Singh Is Being Honored

quote
"Vaheguroo Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguroo Ji Ki Fateh!!!

I recently found out from a Singh that Khushwant Singh is being honored by Centennial Foundation. As many of us know Khushwant Singh doesn't even consider sikhism as a distinct religion. He claims that sikhs are keshdhari hindus and in many of his articles, he has insulted mahaan shaheeds of the panth . He also blatantly states that he's a wine lover.

Please Khalsa ji, take some time to contact the Centennial Foundation and let them know that such a person shouldn't be honored as a Sikh. Clearly its a failure to honor someone such as him and give him the status of a role model for our young Sikh brothers and sisters."
unquote.

I can provide tens of link like this. 

Regards to all as all of you should be elder to me.


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## roopk (Jun 2, 2007)

Khushwant Singh On Guru Granth Sahib and Japu Ji sahib,
Guru Granth Sahib is From Hindu Philosphy.
Japu Ji sahib From Upnishda.


I am giving below the extracts of interview that appears on the following pages:

Quote
*J.S.T.*: *W*hat about the statements that suggest that Sikhs are _kes-dhari_ [sporting unshorn hair] Hindus? You yourself wrote in _The Wall Street Journal_ (Oct. 12, 2001) that Sikhism is a branch of Hinduism. 

*K.S.*: *T*hat is correct. Sikhs are _kes-dhari_ Hindus. Their religious source is Hinduism. Sikhism is a tradition developed within Hinduism. Guru Granth Sahib reflects Vedantic philosophy and Japji Sahib is based on the Upanishads. "
Unquote

I am pain as much as you will be.

Please visit this page.
The Sikh Times - Biographies - Khushwant Singh: "Japji Sahib is Based on the Upanishads"

*A*lso see the extracts as posted in Wikipedia.
User talk:Sukh/Archive 4 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
User talk:Sukh/Archive 4 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*K*hushwant Singh considers himself an agnostic from a Sikh background. He keeps his Sikh atire as part of his identity: [1]

_"*K*hushwant Singh: When I was in England as a student, socialism was much talked about among us. We read and discussed Bertrand Russell and attended lectures by Harold J. Laski. I have not retained many socialistic ideas, but I am still an agnostic._ 

_"*J*.S.T.: You are a non-believer, yet you spent a night at Bangla Sahib gurdwara to seek the Guru's support during a difficult time in your personal life when your wife had threatened to leave you._ 


_"*K*.S.: This is one of those things - a contradiction. It was an emotional issue for me. I was born and raised in a Sikh family. I still keep my beard and turban and identify myself with the Sikh community. "_ 


That being said, Khushwant Singh believes that Sikhs are merely kesh-dari Hindus: _"*S*ikhs are kes-dhari Hindus. Their religious source is Hinduism. Sikhism is a tradition developed within Hinduism. Guru Granth Sahib reflects Vedantic philosophy and Japji Sahib is based on the Upanishads. "_ 


*H*e is the one whom world knows as a sikh. *W*e have no say. *O*ur say is only in in-hoiuse fighting. *W*hy don't you keep yourself armed with the basic knowledge of Sikhi. 

*K*eep *O*n* W*atching these things as eye soothener.


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## tarlochan singh (Jun 3, 2007)

*roopk ji*
*do you realy think that khushwant singh is a role model for the young?*
*great writer nothing else, if you are so mad at k.singh, what about jathedar of akal thakt,vedanti who has said thet we are all offsprings off luv, khus, sons of ram&sita.*
*what should you suggest we do with him.*


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## luv4u (Jun 3, 2007)

tarlochan singh said:


> *roopk ji*
> *do you realy think that khushwant singh is a role model for the young?*
> *great writer nothing else*


 

I agree with you Tarlochan ji but the fact is that Khushwant is a sikh and his audience is much more big than 100 or so.?It is for SGPC as well that people with anti-sikhi values should not be retained in the Panth if they are found to flaunt the basic rules.


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## luv4u (Jun 3, 2007)

roopk said:


> Khushwant Singh On Guru Granth Sahib and Japu Ji sahib,
> Guru Granth Sahib is From Hindu Philosphy.
> Japu Ji sahib From Upnishda.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, I do feel sad and most of us will do think that something should be done in this regard.


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## roopk (Jun 7, 2007)

The following is added here so that one can refer to it as and when equired. One may post hereany other material that clarifies that Sikhism and Hinduism are two disticnt and different religions and the Sikhi is not a branch out Of Hinduism.


*Millions of Krishnas*

In the Akal Ustat, Guru Singh describes God by making use of metaphysical references, imaginative language and image-creating phases. Extended similes and comparisons are also employed, addressing directly the expression of the deity in other religious traditions. 

"There are millions of Indras and incarnations of Brahma, Vishnu and Krishna. But, without worship of God, none are accepted in His Court." (stanza 38)

*Sikhism Discards Hindu’s Vedas and Shastras*


 All the Vedas, the religious books of the Muslims, the Simirtis and Shashtras, by reading these, salvation is not obtained. He who by Guru's instruction utters the one Name; He gathers the pure glory." _(Guru Arjan Dev, Suhi, pg. 747)_

*Rituals Of Hindus Discarded.*

Although respected, the Vedas, Puranas, Shastras (Hindu scriptures) hold no relevance to Sikhs.
Sikhs do not believe in fasting
Sikhs do not believe in the tilak and jineu, marks of the Hindu
Sikhs do not believe in high caste or low, all are one in the eyes of the Lord.
Sikhs do not hold any significance in ritual shaving of the head, in fact removing of hair id forbidden in Sikhism.
Sikhs reject of Idol worship
Although Sikhs respect great deities like Brahama, Shivji and Vishnu there belief in the One almighty God is unshakable[1]. 
You may bathe and wash, and apply a ritualistic _tilak_ mark to your forehead, but without inner purity, there is no understanding. _||6||Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Raag Raamkalee. p903_
 
*Akal Creates Millions Of Krishnas and annihilate Them*




The Lord Akal creates millions of Krishna, annihilates them and recreates them. Some hang stones as gods around their necks, while others erroneously call _Mahesh_ 'God' I have discarded all these false religions and am of the firm view that He who is the creator of the Universe, is the only Lord. Everyone is caught in the noose of Death, no Rama or prophet can escape from it. All of them who made grand claims of being Avtars of God died repentant. Why doest not thou, O, hapless being seek the shelter of the One Lord. (15th swayya) Dasam Granth
[1] Sikh Information Guru Nanak Gobind Singh


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