# Cycles Of The Soul: Creation, Growth, Death Or Transformation Into Other Souls?



## Ambarsaria (Mar 15, 2011)

Soul is the inner self that is like a sounding board of impartiality within.  It sees you without clothes, it sees you without bias or ill will or animosity.  In our action we have a choice to go with what our soul tells us or decide otherwise.  In practical living, the actions you take in worldly matters do not always bring about the best outcome if you always follow your soul (me think!).


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​ 
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Is soul something you are born with fully      developed?
You are born with a body and a baby soul in       it
 
Is soul something that slowly      develops through life?
Your soul grows with your body
As it sees more of you without any cloak you       see it also as the truthful one which understands you whether you like it       or not
You can camouflage your way through the       world, you cannot fool your soul
 


> Living is being born slowly.  It would be a little too easy if we could borrow ready-made souls.  ~Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, _Flight to Arras_, 1942



Does your soul continues to be or dissipates      in other growing souls at death?
Your soul interacts with others through any       of the five senses and a sixth sense (soul’s independent processing       power)
Others interact with you and your soul       through their senses and souls
Your interactions with other souls diminish       but never die totally
Your soul is like a wave that diminishes over       time to almost nothingness in the Universe ocean but will forever reverberate       in a small measure somewhere
 
How are new souls      created as there are more people now than 20,000 years ago?
Souls never die and parts of them merge with       other souls and become part thereof.
Souls like entropy will always increase and       the new are created for ever with components of old, present other souls and seeding of       soul in a baby (biological processes) .... _little baby soul or soul infrastructure that develops in every baby child_
_Not to be taken literally__, when a new child is born back home (Punjab for me), it used to be that people will ask a great person of good qualities to come and visit the new baby.  The person would be considered to give "Gurhti" (like a kick start on a journey of life), and many times with lot of liberties taken (not to be taken literally or a s belief in magic or superstition), people will say "bil kul ohdeh jiha jineh gurhti diti see" (implying the person has grown with many qualities of the person who came fot "gurhti visit when the person was a baby._
 
 


> I simply believe that some part of the human Self or Soul is not subject to the laws of space and time.  ~Carl Jung



Does non-life have soul?
No it does not but everything is part of       oneness (Sikhism) and on earth soul like equivalents and souls can be       expected to be everywhere.
 
Can you trade your soul?
No you cannot.  Though, you are allowed to fool yourself       for sure.
 


> Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found _a_ truth."  Say not, "I have found the path of the soul."  Say rather, "I have met the soul walking upon my path."  For the soul walks upon all paths.  The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.  The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals.  ~Kahlil Gibran, _The Prophet_, 1923



In the      end, can you ever fool your soul or not show its suppression?
Another       soul always has the capability to see your soul.   
        .... as the saying goes, "_Look at me when you speak"_, as eyes are considered windows on the soul.  So when there is a conflict with your soul and your actions it is visible to trained eyes.

 
One       way is as if what Sufi Rumi says below,
 


> When you do things from your soul you feel a river moving in you, a joy.  When action comes from another section, the feeling disappears.  ~Rumi


The above not directed at anyone's beliefs or to make people realize a new truth that negatively impacts their belief system and hence life.


Any comments or thoughts!


Sat Sri Akal.


*PS: * Seeker9 ji encouraged me.  Thanks.


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## Astroboy (Mar 16, 2011)

_The centipede was happy quite  
Until a toad in fun  
Said, 'Pray, which leg comes after which?'  
This raised her mind to such a pitch  
She lay distracted in a ditch  
Considering how to run._


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## Astroboy (Mar 16, 2011)

I found this interesting and quite helpful.
http://www.turnbacktogod.com/what-faith-can-do/


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 17, 2011)

SOUL as innerself is the same as vast infinite outerself it does not take Birth or grows or Dies or transforms into others.
It is JEEVa that takes the Birth and follows the cycleas mentioned in the post.All JEEvs are created from MAYA and SOUL is the life supporting system for the JEEVa/

So it would be interesting to know about the creation of JEEVas and understand their CYCLE of transformation.This creation is again is the result of interaction of complex WAVES AND THERE IS ALWAYS ONETHING COMMON IN ALL jeevAS AND THAT IS sOUL

This is a very deep and complex subject of discussion which can not be comleted in few words.What I have presented as surfacial views about actually who takes Birth and follows the CYCLE of transformation.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 17, 2011)

Prakash S. Bagga ji some comments and appreciate response.






> SOUL as inner-self is the same as vast infinite outer-self it does not take Birth or grows or Dies or transforms into others.




Is      this a “Jyot” concept?
Please       define what happens at death and after cremation?
 
So      soul does not change but body does!
So what       part of ourselves are we trying to make better out of understanding of       Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?
 
Are we      to assume that,
It       is all pre-destined.
We       play no part but are just puppets.
These        are not what Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji espouses but are Hinduism and        other “-ism” concepts.
 
 
 


> It is JEEVa that takes the Birth and follows the cycles mentioned in the post. All JEEvs are created from MAYA and “SOUL is the life supporting” system for the JEEVa/




Isn’t “JEEVa” just      life creation from life as per the laws of nature or oneness that Sikhism      believes in, how is it related to “SOUL”
Do       you believe “Soul” is separate from the creation of life?
 
“SOUL is the life supporting” system
Please       describe what you mean how it works?
 
What      is your comment on reference to “chaurasy lakh junes” (8.4 million      re-incarnations”
Do       you believe in it?
These        are not what Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji espouses but are Hinduism and        other “-ism” concepts.
 
 
 
  These are some questions that come to mind based on your comment.

  With regards in order to learn and share.

  Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:*  Namjap ji I pray you provide input.  When is centipede going to start moving again?  Frog is expecting an answer in the name of God!

  I read your referenced article about the two legged dog and it is inspirational for sure.  Couldn’t figure out how it relates to my post and point therein in specifics.

  I might post it in inspirational stories section for sharing.

  Again please share your insights in reference to my post as we only grow through sharing.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 18, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji.
My response to your post is as

1...Consciousness is definitely is the reference of JOTi only.

2..It is part "I" or what is reffered as HAUMAMAE in Gurbaani we try to make better out of understanding of SGGS

3...Well,According to Gurbaani it is all predestined.
.............................................................................................................

Let us be clear about the concept of Jeeva.Even EARTH,SUN,MOON and all planets including stars and everything visible in in UNIVERSE is Jeeva.And Consciousness is present within every Jeeva. A quote from SGGS for reference

"APNEE MAYA AAP PASAAREE AAPE DEKHANHARAA
NANAA ROOP DHARE BAHu RANGEE SABH TE RAHE NIARAA" pp537

What is to be accepted or rejected is clearly given in the messages of Gurbaani.According to Gurbaani it is to be believed that the whole game is 
of 'Chaurasi lac Joons"There can be no ifs and but about this.

Prakash.S.Bagga.


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## Astroboy (Mar 18, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> *PS:*  Namjap ji I pray you provide input.  When is centipede going to start moving again?  Frog is expecting an answer in the name of God!
> 
> I read your referenced article about the two legged dog and it is inspirational for sure.  Couldn’t figure out how it relates to my post and point therein in specifics.
> 
> ...



The frog concept : Acting as a distraction. 
Centipede concept : Nature is made intelligent, self-preserving and auto-functional. We are that part of nature who are living like the centipede but we sometimes wonder, like the frog does, how nature works.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 18, 2011)

NAMJAP Ji,
Wonderful explanation forthe Centipede concept.

Although knowing nature is a continuing process.Our Gurbaani is very clear about this knowing asquote

"HARi KEE GATi NAA KOEE JAANE
JOGEE JAPEE TAPEE PUCH HAARE
ARBO LOG SIYAANE"

So we should have only concern with NAAmu of Gurbaani,

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Astroboy (Mar 18, 2011)

> Couldn’t figure out how it relates to my post and point therein in specifics.
> 
> I might post it in inspirational stories section for sharing.
> 
> Again please share your insights in reference to my post as we only grow through sharing.


Ambarsaria Ji,

Sometimes i find a inner connection to tell someone, like you, something that does not necessarily have to relate to the topic at hand. I am actually finding myself in that situation now. The inner urges of soul to discover one's self to be surrounded by a greater arena of possibilities and levels of consciousness is as real and profound as our sexual urges and drives. And the urges of soul need not be reduced to just a subliminal thing of the mind. What a co-incidence it is that here we are discussing a subject which kind of relates to what I have just posted on my blog. The 5 videos on how to meditate are just amazing. Here's the link: http://pyaarmessages.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/spiritual-exercises-for-you/#comments


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 18, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> NAMJAP Ji,
> Wonderful explanation forthe Centipede concept.
> 
> Although knowing nature is a continuing process.Our Gurbaani is very clear about this knowing asquote
> ...


Prakash S. Bagga ji the above is one of the worse ways to exemplify what Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji says in overall context.  You have fallen into the trap of "Tuq" (sentence) quoting.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji numerous times reminds about the infinite and indescribable "one creator and truth that is everywhere" including within and around us.

Let us look at your quote,


> "HARi KEE GATi NAA KOEE JAANE JOGEE JAPEE TAPEE PUCH HAARE ARBO LOG SIYAANE"
> 
> _No one knows the working of the creator, Jogis and Sants gave up asking and so did millions of wise_


In its simple message to spners, your post says no body has and no body would and millions have given up trying to understand the truth and the creator, so take a chill pill.  

This is against Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as a whole.  In Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, the writings slowly but surely guide and help us understand.  It is not a puzzle that we are trying to solve in full as that is against thee tachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as it is stated that "the creator and the truth is beyond complete description".  However, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji teaches us to understand as much as we can and not just close eyes believe without understanding or recite "NAAM"/"NAAMu" and you are done.

Please explain.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Astroboy (Mar 18, 2011)

Movies are made to create the emotional rollercoaster of extreme sadness and heightened happiness. It has a psychological impact when it reminds of past memories of similar emotions we have experienced. 

But the theme of the video song is about the persistent mindset the child has been taught to have; when he is expecting some support probably food and care but is being shunned by all the villagers. The song is supposed to convey a moral lesson which actually have its roots in spirituality. It is not a spiritual principle alone but a realization when one attains some level of enlightenment. Jyot se jyot jalaa ke chalo actually is very similar as what Guru Gobind Singh Ji explained about Khalsa (as follows):-
"Know a Khalsa only when the full Light shines in his body."


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 18, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
Sir ,you have totally misunderstood the underline message of the Tuk as presented,

You are considering the meaning of word GATi  as TRUTH.It is not so ,here the word GATi referes to  any probable next move of THE CREATOR.

Moreover THE CREATOR is to be known thru NAAMu only not as some sort of thing or so.

So pl rethink the wordings of the sabad and decide again.Message is absolutely straight and crystal clear.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 18, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
What should be the meaning of the Tuk ;HARi Ki GATi NAA KOEE JAANE" according to your perception
I would request to post your thinking on thisline so that i can rectify my understanding
as I may be wrong too.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Mar 18, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> Sir ,you have totally misunderstood the underline message of the Tuk as presented,
> 
> You are considering the meaning of word GATi  as TRUTH.It is not so ,here the word GATi referes to  any probable next move of THE CREATOR.
> ...



Actually parkash s bagga ji - I have been remiss lately in enforcing the Term of Service in your case and others. It is required that you post the entire shabad and not a single tuk. For reasons stated by Ambarsaria ji. So please do so in the future. Thank you.


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## spnadmin (Mar 18, 2011)

This is the shabad ...posted so that 99 percent of our readers are not wandering around in confusion about the source of the discussion at this point --- and becoming frustrated because everything is so much like thinking in short-hand. 
*
Please be warned that deletions will follow.* 


Shabad follows


Raag Bihaagraa, Ninth Mehl:
8 ਪੰ. ੮


ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਨਹਿ ਕੋਊ ਜਾਨੈ ॥
Har Kee Gath Nehi Kooo Jaanai ||
No one knows the state of the Lord.

ਜੋਗੀ ਜਤੀ ਤਪੀ ਪਚਿ ਹਾਰੇ ਅਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਲੋਗ ਸਿਆਨੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Jogee Jathee Thapee Pach Haarae Ar Bahu Log Siaanae ||1|| Rehaao ||
The Yogis, the celibates, the penitents, and all sorts of clever people have failed. ||1||Pause||


ਛਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਉ ਰੰਕ ਕਉ ਕਰਈ ਰਾਉ ਰੰਕ ਕਰਿ ਡਾਰੇ ॥
Shhin Mehi Raao Rank Ko Karee Raao Rank Kar Ddaarae ||
In an instant, He changes the beggar into a king, and the king into a beggar.


ਰੀਤੇ ਭਰੇ ਭਰੇ ਸਖਨਾਵੈ ਯਹ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਬਿਵਹਾਰੇ ॥੧॥
Reethae Bharae Bharae Sakhanaavai Yeh Thaa Ko Bivehaarae ||1||
He fills what is empty, and empties what is full - such are His ways. ||1||


ਅਪਨੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਆਪਿ ਪਸਾਰੀ ਆਪਹਿ ਦੇਖਨਹਾਰਾ ॥
Apanee Maaeiaa Aap Pasaaree Aapehi Dhaekhanehaaraa ||
He Himself spread out the expanse of His Maya, and He Himself beholds it.

ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪੁ ਧਰੇ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗੀ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਆਰਾ ॥੨॥
Naanaa Roop Dhharae Bahu Rangee Sabh Thae Rehai Niaaraa ||2||
He assumes so many forms, and plays so many games, and yet, He remains detached from it all. ||2||


ਅਗਨਤ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਸਭ ਜਗੁ ਭਰਮਾਇਓ ॥
Aganath Apaar Alakh Niranjan Jih Sabh Jag Bharamaaeiou ||
Incalculable, infinite, incomprehensible and immaculate is He, who has misled the entire world.
Note: "misled" is a bad equivalent in this line. 



ਸਗਲ ਭਰਮ ਤਜਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਰਨਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਓ ॥੩॥੧॥੨॥
Sagal Bharam Thaj Naanak Praanee Charan Thaahi Chith Laaeiou ||3||1||2||
Cast off all your doubts; prays Nanak, O mortal, focus your consciousness on His Feet. ||3||1||2||


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 18, 2011)

SPNADMIN Ji.

I understand your concern about this but i had already expressed my inability to do so long back.
So I would request you to post this SABAD which is there in SGGS pp537.
Thanking you

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Mar 18, 2011)

That is fine. If any one has a problem, he or she can also seek my assistance.

I have already posted the complete shabad from Ang 537. See above.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 18, 2011)

SPNADMIN Ji,
Thankyou very much

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 18, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> This is the shabad ...posted so that 99 percent of our readers are not wandering around in confusion about the source of the discussion at this point --- and becoming frustrated because everything is so much like thinking in short-hand.
> *
> Please be warned that deletions will follow.*
> 
> ...


Prakash S. Bagga ji the answer is given by Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji right after "||1|| Rehaao ||".

So what I have stated in my original post is that you have just created "Doubt" and taken the front part of the Shabad before ||1|| Rehaao ||, which is a statement/Question throughout Gurbani.  

Whereas once you quote the full shabad the question is put in a perspective by examples for learning and understanding given after ||1|| Rehaao ||.

So in the end the whole Shabad is "Active" versus your original "Tuk" quote emphasizing submission, futility of searching, learning, trying to understand, etc.

I am shocked at this indiscretion unless it is an honest mistake and not an approach.  Please clarify.

Regards.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 18, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I appreciate your views with respect to what you say.
You will be greatly surprised to know that in SGGS there are many SABADS without having any TUK of RAHAO.In such case you will find that everylineor group of lines has different messages in the same SABAD.This is just an information.
I also feel sorry if you have taken a different view because of incompete posting of the SABAD.In future I shall take care of this aspect I assure you,

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 18, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I may further clarify a point that the any tuk before RAHAO can not be considered as question as the RAHAO is not the denotion for questionmark? The word RAHAO stands for 'PAUSE".In this case certainly the line before the Tuk RAHAO contitutes the MAIN THEME or Subject of the whole SABAD.
Any way this is how I understand  about the significance of any Tuk before RAHAO.Your understanding may be different and I shall be cautious in future to see that no such doubt or confusion is created on this account.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 18, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> I may further clarify a point that the any tuk before RAHAO can not be considered as question as the RAHAO is not the denotion for questionmark? The word RAHAO stands for 'PAUSE".In this case certainly the line before the Tuk RAHAO contitutes the MAIN THEME or Subject of the whole SABAD.
> Any way this is how I understand  about the significance of any Tuk before RAHAO.Your understanding may be different and I shall be cautious in future to see that no such doubt or confusion is created on this account.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash S. Bagga ji I understand the following and rest of your stuff as it is well described by Professor Sahib Singh ji,



> The word RAHAO stands for 'PAUSE".
> _
> It is a pause to think.  It is as if asking yourself what one thinks!  It is a prodding to use one's brain rather than have ready made answers available.  It is this pausing and thinking which creates understanding within a specific shabad as well as creates one's understanding of the shabad to relate to rest of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.[_/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 18, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,

I am neither a BABa.nor JOgi nor any so called Saint.
I am surprised to go thru your response regarding your "OWN CREATED " confusion  where is the need for such non courteous approach.
I suppose you are holding a respectable position so is everyone else.Err is Human and there should be no hitch in accepting the errorwhatsoever.
There is no point in making the shots from others shoulders .We are here to share the views only not liable to offer any unreasonable explanations which are uncalled for,
Shri Ambarsaria Ji You should have some firm Locus standi of your own.

With best wishes
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Mar 18, 2011)

Prakash S Bagga ji

I myself did not read Ambarsaria ji's comments about babas to be directed at you either. He was imho pointing to the constant danger that comes from throwing out individual tuks. And to the nefarious use that babas and others make of this practice. You were not the target of that comment. It was an appeal to understand the problems created by citing individual tuks out of context. .


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 18, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
Well I wrote what I felt but I appreciate you have taken a positive view of my feelings.
I fully agree with what is your cocern and we are sharing views on Gurbaani to understand people their own invovement in understanding Gurbaani rather than be trap of Babas/Jogees and so called saints.
I may inform you out ofreference that I am a Qualified Enginner with background of faculty teachings.Gurbaani deliberation is my daily part and parcel of my life.I am 100% a non political person.
You will always find mewith you in sharing of common views on Gurbaani .

With best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Mar 18, 2011)

REturning to the shabad, I have copied Professor Sahib Singh's commentary, along with Dr. Manmohan Singh's translation, to get the full flavor. Dr. Manmohan Singh's translation does differ from the earlier one that I posted to some extent.


ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ 
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.  
There is but One God. By True Guru's grace, He is obtained.  
ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਇੱਕ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਲ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੯ ॥  
Rāg bihāgaṛā mėhlā 9.  
Rag Bihagra 9th Guru.  



ਰਾਗ ਬੇਹਾਗੜਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਗਬਹਾਦਰ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ।
ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਨਹਿ ਕੋਊ ਜਾਨੈ ॥   ਜੋਗੀ ਜਤੀ ਤਪੀ ਪਚਿ ਹਾਰੇ ਅਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਲੋਗ ਸਿਆਨੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥  
Har kī gaṯ nėh ko▫ū jānai.   Jogī jaṯī ṯapī pacẖ hāre ar baho log si▫āne. ||1|| rahā▫o.  

No one knows the state of the Lord.   The renunciators, celibates, penitents and good many wise men have utterly failed. Pause.  

ਗਤਿ = ਉੱਚੀ ਆਤਮਕ ਅਵਸਥਾ। ਕੋਊ = ਕੋਈ ਭੀ। ਪਚਿ = ਖਪ ਖਪ ਕੇ। ਹਾਰੇ = ਥੱਕ ਗਏ ਹਨ। ਅਰੁ = ਅਤੇ।੧।ਰਹਾਉ।

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਜੋਗੀ, ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਤਪੀ, ਅਤੇ ਹੋਰ ਬਥੇਰੇ ਸਿਆਣੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਖਪ ਖਪ ਕੇ ਹਾਰ ਗਏ ਹਨ, ਪਰ ਕੋਈ ਭੀ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਇਹ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣ ਸਕਦਾ ਕਿ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਕਿਹੋ ਜਿਹਾ ਹੈ।੧।ਰਹਾਉ।



ਛਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਉ ਰੰਕ ਕਉ ਕਰਈ ਰਾਉ ਰੰਕ ਕਰਿ ਡਾਰੇ ॥   ਰੀਤੇ ਭਰੇ ਭਰੇ ਸਖਨਾਵੈ ਯਹ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਬਿਵਹਾਰੇ ॥੧॥  
Cẖẖin mėh rā▫o rank ka▫o kar▫ī rā▫o rank kar dāre.   Rīṯe bẖare bẖare sakẖnāvai yėh ṯā ko bivhāre. ||1||  
In a trice, He makes a pauper a king, and a king a pauper.   What is empty He fills, and what is full He empties, Such are His ways.  

ਰਾਉ = ਰਾਜਾ। ਰੰਕ ਕਉ = ਕੰਗਾਲ ਨੂੰ। ਕਰਈ = ਕਰਏ, ਕਰੈ, ਬਣਾ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਯਹ = ਇਹ। ਬਿਵਹਾਰੇ = ਨਿੱਤ ਦਾ ਕੰਮ।੧।

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਉਹ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਇਕ ਛਿਨ ਵਿਚ ਕੰਗਾਲ ਨੂੰ ਰਾਜਾ ਬਣਾ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤੇ, ਰਾਜੇ ਨੂੰ ਕੰਗਾਲ ਕਰ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਖ਼ਾਲੀ ਭਾਂਡਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਭਰ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਭਰਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਖ਼ਾਲੀ ਕਰ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਗ਼ਰੀਬਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਅਮੀਰ ਤੇ ਅਮੀਰਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਗ਼ਰੀਬ ਬਣਾ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ)-ਇਹ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਨਿੱਤ ਦਾ ਕੰਮ ਹੈ।੧।



ਅਪਨੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਆਪਿ ਪਸਾਰੀ ਆਪਹਿ ਦੇਖਨਹਾਰਾ ॥   ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪੁ ਧਰੇ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗੀ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਆਰਾ ॥੨॥  
Apnī mā▫i▫ā āp pasārī āpėh ḏekẖanhārā.   Nānā rūp ḏẖare baho rangī sabẖ ṯe rahai ni▫ārā. ||2||  
His mammon, He Himself has spread and He Himself is the Beholder thereof.   He assumes many forms and plays many sports, yet he remains distinct from all.  

ਪਸਾਰੀ = ਖਿਲਾਰੀ ਹੋਈ। ਆਪਹਿ = ਆਪ ਹੀ। ਦੇਖਨਹਾਰਾ = ਸੰਭਾਲ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ਨਾਨਾ = ਕਈ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ। ਧਰੇ = ਬਣਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਧਾਰ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗੀ = ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਰੰਗਾਂ ਦਾ ਮਾਲਕ। ਤੇ = ਤੋਂ। ਨਿਆਰਾ = ਵੱਖਰਾ ਹੈ।੨।

(ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਇਸ ਦਿੱਸਦੇ ਜਗਤ-ਰੂਪ ਤਮਾਸ਼ੇ ਵਿਚ) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਆਪ ਖਿਲਾਰੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਇਸ ਦੀ ਸੰਭਾਲ ਕਰ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਉਹ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਰੰਗਾਂ ਦਾ ਮਾਲਕ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਈ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਰੂਪ ਧਾਰ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤੇ ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਰੂਪਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਖਰਾ ਭੀ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ।੨।



ਅਗਨਤ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਸਭ ਜਗੁ ਭਰਮਾਇਓ ॥   ਸਗਲ ਭਰਮ ਤਜਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਰਨਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਓ ॥੩॥੧॥੨॥  
Agnaṯ apār alakẖ niranjan jih sabẖ jag bẖarmā▫i▫o.   Sagal bẖaram ṯaj Nānak parāṇī cẖaran ṯāhi cẖiṯ lā▫i▫o. ||3||1||2||  
Incomputable, lllimitable, Incomprehensible and Immaculate is the Lord who has lured away the whole world.   Says Nanak, O mortal, lay aside thou all thy doubts and fix thy mind on His feet.  

ਅਗਨਤ = ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਿਣੇ ਨਾਹ ਜਾ ਸਕਣ। ਅਪਾਰੁ = ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਪਾਰਲਾ ਬੰਨਾ ਨਾਹ ਲੱਭ ਸਕੇ। ਅਲਖ = ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਮਝ ਵਿਚ ਨਾਹ ਆ ਸਕੇ। ਨਿਰੰਜਨ = ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਤੋਂ ਪਰੇ। ਜਿਹ = ਜਿਸ (ਹਰੀ) ਨੇ। ਭਰਮਾਇਓ = ਭਟਕਣਾ ਵਿਚ ਪਾ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ। ਤਾਹਿ ਚਰਨਿ = ਉਸ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ। ਲਾਇਓ = ਲਾਇਆ ਹੈ।੩।

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਿਣੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ, ਉਹ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਅਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੇ ਹੀ ਸਾਰੇ ਜਗਤ ਨੂੰ (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੀ) ਭਟਕਣਾ ਵਿਚ ਪਾਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਆਖ-) ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਮਨ ਜੋੜਿਆ ਹੈ, ਇਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੀਆਂ ਸਾਰੀਆਂ ਭਟਕਣਾਂ ਤਿਆਗ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਜੋੜਿਆ ਹੈ।੩।੧।੨।


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## spnadmin (Mar 18, 2011)

Also, if anyone has the inclination. Why do the translations differ so much on one word. One word changes the direction of meaning in a very big way.

Manmohan Singh translates: 

ਅਗਨਤ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਸਭ ਜਗੁ ਭਰਮਾਇਓ ॥ 
Agnaṯ apār alakẖ niranjan jih sabẖ jag bẖarmā▫i▫o. 
Incomputable, lllimitable, Incomprehensible and Immaculate is the Lord *who has lured away the whole world*. 

Professor Sant Singh translates

ਅਗਨਤ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਸਭ ਜਗੁ ਭਰਮਾਇਓ ॥
Aganath Apaar Alakh Niranjan Jih Sabh Jag Bharamaaeiou ||
Incalculable, infinite, incomprehensible and immaculate is He, *who has misled the entire world.*

"Lured away" and "misled the entire world" convey very different meanings -- and in the case of the second, "misled the entire world" the sense of Akaal as cosmic trouble-maker is quite strong. The differences cast completely different ideas of how we related to the divine nature.


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 18, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> Also, if anyone has the inclination. Why do the translations differ so much on one word. One word changes the direction of meaning in a very big way.
> 
> *Manmohan Singh translates: *
> 
> ...






> "Lured away" and "misled the entire world" convey very different  meanings -- and in the case of the second, "misled the entire world" the  sense of Akaal as cosmic trouble-maker is quite strong. The differences  cast completely different ideas of how we related to the divine nature.
> 
> _They both convey very different meanings indeed.  In my assessment (humble as it may), these are both wrong._


My attempt at correct translation is included in the quoted area.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Mar 18, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji

Thanks. They are both untenable: "lured" and "misled." Misled bothered me the most. In my limited way, the idea of *yearnings for possessions (maya)* seem strongly implied in the Punjabi verb. Almost like "lost in the trappings of maya." The idea of the tuk is not that elusive that a better English verb could not be chosen.


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 19, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> Ambarsaria ji
> 
> Thanks. They are both untenable: "lured" and "misled." Misled bothered me the most. In my limited way, the idea of *yearnings for possessions (maya)* seem strongly implied in the Punjabi verb. Almost like "lost in the trappings of maya." The idea of the tuk is not that elusive that a better English verb could not be chosen.


spnadmin ji, you are much more experienced as I have joined very recently.

Have you come across many such discrepancies or questions?

I will be happy to review and help if needed if there are specific items that need to be looked at.

I have seen lot of issues with Kirtan video translations but admiring the effort from the people I look the other way.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Mar 19, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> spnadmin ji, you are much more experienced as I have joined very recently.
> 
> Have you come across many such discrepancies or questions?
> 
> ...



Ambarsaria ji

I have not been keeping count -- but there are discrepancies and when i see them they are jarring in a way. So I am left thinking "This can't be right!" even though a translation can never be an exact transformation of the Punjabi. If you are willing to resolve the contradictions, then I will keep better tabs on this. Usually I just remark in a thread and move on. 

It is hard for me because my Punjabi is extremely limited, and what is there only goes as far as the language of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 

It would actually be good for many of us, and not just me. Maybe the thing to do is start a thread in Gurmat Vichaar in which these tough nuts are cracked, as they come up. It would also provide a place for a more serious consideration of Guru Granth Darpan. We would be the first forum to do this -- conduct an online/web-based Sahib Singh ji Translation Clinic. It may also bring in more interest from India-based, Punjabi speakers who don't have too much to read here, but have something to offer.

Thanks for the brainstorming opportunity. Let me find an example from the past, and then start the thread. 

p/s Sometimes in grace and good manners it is right to look the other way. Picking points is not always called for. The task of translation is not easy. How long have Sikhs been at this -- 50 years at most?


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 19, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> SPNADMIN Ji/AMBARSARIAji,
> This is a great idea to have relook into Gurbaani understanding.If possible it should be done with consideration of proper grammer of each word invoved in the message.
> At present we do not have a Dictionary of Gurbaani Voacabulary as a reference book.
> Your deliberations can be a part of Online Dictionary of Gurbaani words.
> ...


Prakash.S.Bagga ji I suggest we don't put any constraints as for example with what you are saying (proper Grammar) one would exclude 99.999+ % of the Sikh world from participating and inversely imply that there is no way they can understand Gurbani.  That is the last thing I want to see and I am sure that is not necessarily what you are implying.

Let people share their understanding however achieved without limits (grammar, etc.) and as long as love, understanding, sincerity and a dash humbleness is in the mix, it could be very worthwhile.  Let people take baby steps, jog or run with the choice of pace and time to their own capability level.

Just some humble comments.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Mar 19, 2011)

Thread is ready for action:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/34913-translation-tuk-does-not-seem-right.html


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## findingmyway (Mar 19, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,
Some excellent thoughts! My comment is that you imply that soul is something external? I do not consider that to be so. I think of soul more as conscience, consciousness and more! Soul is the feeling that accompanies spirituality. It is part of us from the beginning. What happens after we die to it? Gurbani tells us we cannot know! That is my understanding to date but am still learning......


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 19, 2011)

findingmyway said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> Some excellent thoughts! My comment is that you imply that soul is something external? I do not consider that to be so. I think of soul more as conscience, consciousness and more! Soul is the feeling that accompanies spirituality. It is part of us from the beginning. What happens after we die to it? Gurbani tells us we cannot know! That is my understanding to date but am still learning......


findingmyway ji my points raised in the thread are driven via the following hypothesis,



Souls regardless of how these come about interact with other souls
The interaction between souls has a definitive impact on each of the interacting souls
The interactions lead to further development and enriching of souls
Whereas the interactions will be easily observable in communication between people, between people and life forms, and non-physical manifestations.  The interactions can prevail beyond the living beings interacting to the point of,
Memories of actions of souls of people who passed away,
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is an example of a living soul of our Gurus and the contributors way past their physical existence
Continuing to impact and enrich through understanding


This also applies to your friends, family, strangers and even interactions we are having at spn
Soul is a living and shared entity that continues to receive as well as give in various forms to others from the past, the  present and well into the future

Hence souls are a time transformational entities that will prevail to the last essence of life on earth and the universe
In spite of all of the above, any individual soul is not something like something in a bottle that is trapped and stays as is only to keep reappearing as the same for ever in different human shells
It grows, transforms, spawns new souls, and transforms again in never ending cycle
There are no bad souls

People manifestations of actions can bypass the intents of their souls and as such even though all souls are noble, people's actions may not always be noble in spite of their souls
"Like an angel soul trapped in an otherwise lesser of a person in their actions.
Doing while lying to your inner self
Ignoring the good of your inner self
Etc.


I hope that clarifies for philosophical dialog.

Any comments!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Mar 19, 2011)

admin note: I have just removed more than a page of discussion about Gurbani Grammar from this thread. All discussion should be on the topic of of the thread title, and thread starter article.Thanks.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 20, 2011)

AMBARSARIA JI,Divine Greetings,
There is a SABAD pp686 Raag DhanaasaiM5 Ghar 6 Astapadi.
I think this SABAD may be helpful in getting answer to some of the questions related to 
cycle,growth and transformation  of soul/souls.
I would request you to post this SABAD  for reference.
The SABAD starts as ..JO Jo JOONI AAEO

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 20, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA JI,Divine Greetings,
> There is a SABAD pp686 Raag DhanaasaiM5 Ghar 6 Astapadi.
> I think this SABAD may be helpful in getting answer to some of the questions related to
> cycle,growth and transformation  of soul/souls.
> ...


prakash.s.bagga ji I reviewed the Shabad per Professor Sahib Singh ji's Darpan and it has nothing much to do with this thread.

In my most humblest of opinions, you may again be focusing on the front end of the Shabad (even for reference purposes) in this case the word "_JOONI_" (human, animal, insect, worm (centipede), etc.) which referes to categories of life manifestations and not "soul".

As one reads the full Shabad there is no inconsistency to other Shabads.  I think you may need to question how you search for such Shabads and with what intent? What it achieves other than kind of doubt on record every time you post these front lines?  

Please at least describe the essence and reason in your own ways why anyone should post a Shabad for you other than saying it "may" help.

I feel like the following in such situations,

*Example:* _I am thirsty to know_ others views and understanding starting the thread,


*edited*


Looking for words and phrases where a similar question has been addressed in Gurbani is a 2 minute search,

Value is in sharing the understanding and if you have any unique views different from Professor Sahib Singh ji.

If you have different views, please post your translation and understanding of the Shabad and its relation to this thread.

Please correct me!

Thank you.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 20, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
It is quite possible I have not understood the essence meaning of the word "SOUL"  of this topic.
But as being mentioned right at the start SOUL as inner Self my understanding is related to this 'INNER SELF"
My views with reference to this INNER SELF are that I consider this innerself as the same as infinite OUTERSELF.In this consideration 'INNERSELF" doesnot take Birth,
So if innerself does not take birth there is no question of its ,growing,dieng and transforming.
Now you may clarify me pl where I am missing my understanding.?

AMBARSARIA Ji, we are GUR BHAI and this acceptance is more than than enough 
to keep us going together.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## findingmyway (Mar 20, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,
This can easily become a thread of opinions. A good way forward might be to post gurbani and relate that to what Guruji is telling us about the soul. This was attempted a few months ago but people quickly became overwhelmed with the number of references to the soul. I think you have a good chance of success with the high level of analysis you bring to judgement.

Here's a shabad to get us started from Ang 137. I am posting the given English translation as I eagerly await your interpretation, I do not necessarily agree with the translation here.

ਸੰਤ ਅਰਾਧਨਿ ਸਦ ਸਦਾ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਾ ਬਖਸਿੰਦੁ ॥ Santh Araadhhan Sadh Sadhaa Sabhanaa Kaa Bakhasindh ||
The Saints worship and adore Him forever and ever; He is the Forgiver of all.


ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਦਿਤੀਨੁ ਜਿੰਦੁ ॥ Jeeo Pindd Jin Saajiaa Kar Kirapaa Dhitheen Jindh ||
He fashioned the soul and the body, and by His Kindness, He bestowed the soul.


ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਆਰਾਧੀਐ ਜਪੀਐ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਮੰਤੁ ॥ Gur Sabadhee Aaraadhheeai Japeeai Niramal Manth ||
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, worship and adore Him, and chant His Pure Mantra.


ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਹਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈਐ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰੁ ਬੇਅੰਤੁ ॥ Keemath Kehan N Jaaeeai Paramaesur Baeanth ||
His Value cannot be evaluated. The Transcendent Lord is endless.


ਜਿਸੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਰਾਇਣੋ ਸੋ ਕਹੀਐ ਭਗਵੰਤੁ ॥ Jis Man Vasai Naraaeino So Keheeai Bhagavanth ||
That one, within whose mind the Lord abides, is said to be most fortunate.


ਜੀਅ ਕੀ ਲੋਚਾ ਪੂਰੀਐ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਕੰਤੁ ॥ Jeea Kee Lochaa Pooreeai Milai Suaamee Kanth ||
The soul's desires are fulfilled, upon meeting the Master, our Husband Lord.


ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜੀਵੈ ਜਪਿ ਹਰੀ ਦੋਖ ਸਭੇ ਹੀ ਹੰਤੁ ॥ Naanak Jeevai Jap Haree Dhokh Sabhae Hee Hanth ||
Nanak lives by chanting the Lord's Name; all sorrows have been erased.


ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਸੋ ਹਰਿਆ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੰਤੁ ॥੩॥ Dhin Rain Jis N Visarai So Hariaa Hovai Janth ||3||
One who does not forget Him, day and night, is continually rejuvenated. ||3||


This is very exciting and could turn out to be an incredible thread!!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 20, 2011)

FINDINGMYWAYS Ji,

I may be excused if I bring to your kind notice that the SABAD posted is incomplete.
A salient feature of this SABAD is that there is no Tuk of RAHAO.

The full SABAD has headings as DIN RAINin RAAG MANJH 5

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Mar 20, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> FINDINGMYWAYS Ji,
> 
> I may be excused if I bring to your kind notice that the SABAD posted is incomplete.
> A salient feature of this SABAD is that there is no Tuk of RAHAO.
> ...



prakash s bagga ji

Hope we are looking at the same verses. The shabad is very long and is broken into vaars/paurees of approximately 8 to 10 verses each.  It begins on Ang 136 by Guru Arjan Dev, and is entitled ਮਾਝ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਦਿਨ ਰੈਣਿ Maajh Mehalaa 5 Dhin Rain, Maajh, Fifth Mehl: Day And Night. It begins

ਸੇਵੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਆਪਣਾ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰੀ ਦਿਨ ਸਭਿ ਰੈਣ ॥
Saevee Sathigur Aapanaa Har Simaree* Dhin Sabh Rain* ||
I serve my True Guru, and meditate on Him all day and night.


The *Dhin Rain *you cite is not the beginning of the verses/shabad under discussion. *Under discussion is what is on Ang 137. *

A.   *Dhin Rain J Prabh Kano Saevadhae Thin Kai Sadh Balihaar ||2||* comes to a full stop  ll2ll marking an ending.Here it is


ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਜਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੰਉ ਸੇਵਦੇ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਸਦ ਬਲਿਹਾਰ ॥੨॥
*Dhin Rain J Prabh Kano Saevadhae Thin Kai Sadh Balihaar ||2||*
I am forever a sacrifice to those who serve God, day and night. ||2||


It does not come at beginning of the next pauree, which findingmyway has posted. 

B.  findingmyway then picks up with  *Santh Araadhhan Sadh Sadhaa Sabhanaa Kaa Bakhasindh * as follows:

ਸੰਤ ਅਰਾਧਨਿ ਸਦ ਸਦਾ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਾ ਬਖਸਿੰਦੁ ॥
*Santh Araadhhan Sadh Sadhaa Sabhanaa Kaa Bakhasindh *
The Saints worship and adore Him forever and ever; He is the Forgiver of all.

C.  This shabad/pauree ends with *Dhin Rain* and a full stop ll3ll at
*
ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਸੋ ਹਰਿਆ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੰਤੁ ॥੩॥
Dhin Rain Jis N Visarai So Hariaa Hovai Janth ||3||
One who does not forget Him, day and night, is continually rejuvenated. ||3||*

*Dhin Rain *is at the end of each, at ll2ll and at ll3ll


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## spnadmin (Mar 20, 2011)

Any further technical discussion of Dhin Rain will be considered off-topic and will be deleted.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 20, 2011)

SPNADMIN Ji.

Very  surprisedto know this .
Thanks

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 20, 2011)

findingmyway ji and spnadmin ji I thank you greatly for your contribution.  When I see a contribution I feel obliged to put in effort so deserving.  It is a joy for me too as I develop understanding.


spnadmin ji thank you also in providing gurbani and shabad structure guidance and supportive environment.

In recognizing Professor Sahib Singh ji's Darpan I have noted in red my notion of understanding in the below,





findingmyway said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> This can easily become a thread of opinions. A good way forward might be to post gurbani and relate that to what Guruji is telling us about the soul. This was attempted a few months ago but people quickly became overwhelmed with the number of references to the soul. I think you have a good chance of success with the high level of analysis you bring to judgement.
> 
> Here's a shabad to get us started from Ang 137. I am posting the given English translation as I eagerly await your interpretation, I do not necessarily agree with the translation here.
> ...




*Bottomline:*

The shabad is wonderful.  It guides us that the creator provides us with a body and life.  In life your mind spawns the soul which connects to the creator’s supreme soul through understanding of the creator’s virtues, which one will never fully understand as these virtues being limitless.  So always remembering the creator and working in consonance with the developed understanding, one’s living becomes evergreen.

So for me the following is the flow,



> A shell or body is created ---->  The body is enabled with Life  -------->  the enabled body has mind  ----->  mind enables the understanding of the creator (1)  ----->  the understanding is the manifestation of your soul  ------>  your actions in life may or may not be governed by your understanding or soul  ----->  and this will differentiate the degrees of "manmukh" and "Gurmukh"​ *Note** (1)*:  _The understanding of the creator continues to evolve over time.  Hence the level of understanding continues to improve for those who so choose to avail themselves of this.  _​




> _Example 1:_ _ Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji gives us a higher basis of enlightenment versus if one were to do everything alone._
> 
> _Example 2:_ _A manmukh caring for a new child, can conversely hamper understanding of the creator through wrong information, mis-guidance or prevention of access to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji._
> 
> _Example 3:  Excessive mis-guidance through babeys, sants, mahants, so called fake Gurus could potentially badly damage learning of the truth faculties in their followers if not totally damage them permanently for a life time._


 Sat Sri Akal


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 21, 2011)

AMBARSARIA JI,

Your Bottomline remarks are superb and excellent.
I congratulate you for such wonderful interpretation.
I am convinced you can do wonders in prestation when you get to realise the contentof   any SABAD. This is manifested in your style of analysis.

With best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## findingmyway (Mar 21, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,
Wonderful! Thank you. What I'm getting from this is soul is part of our life and also part of Waheguru? Have I understood right?

I've noticed on several of your posts that I cannot read half the Gurmukhi fonts. Which website are they from? Thanks.

Lets explore more shabads to gain a better understanding of the soul. Any suggestions :grinningkaur:


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## spnadmin (Mar 21, 2011)

findingmyway ji

The font is Raavi. I can read it OK, and never had a problem. Which is a mystery because the font is not on the SPN list of supported fonts. 

Why not try to install that font and see if you can read it too. Thanks for mentioning this as I wonder if there are other members who cannot read the font and are seeing an ASCII code instead.


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 21, 2011)

findingmyway said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> Wonderful! Thank you. What I'm getting from this is soul is part of our life and also part of Waheguru? Have I understood right?
> 
> I've noticed on several of your posts that I cannot read half the Gurmukhi fonts. Which website are they from? Thanks.
> ...


findingmyway ji thanks for your feedback.

Some finer points,






> What I'm getting from this is soul is part of our life



Yes
But it is related to its richness and completeness based on the understanding of Waheguru by each of us
No one has less soul or more soul
 it is the level of understanding
and their actions reflective of the understanding which determine,
whether,
they are wasting away their soul or Creator's gift
or putting it to good use to become "Gurmukh"
or putting it to be bad use/ignoring it/stopping its nourishment/growth/etc., to become "Manmukh"
 
 
 
Focus is,
Understanding and not just the word "Waheguru"
 
 
 





> and also part of Waheguru?



Yes
Greater than the word is the "understanding of the word"
 
 
  Thus two people or more sharing understanding are effecting each others souls.   One may be gone but the effect will still be there in others and vice versa through the ages in the past and into the future.  

So people say "Souls don't die", I suppose this makes sense to me now at least as to how!"  Unless there are some genetic breakthroughs I do believe however that at birth we start with a brand new slate or a fresh soul with no limitations and everyone equal to any other.  If science proves other wise I will have no difficulty accepting as we already know how rest of the bodily genetic is linked to the past.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS*:  Yes this font thingy drives me nuts.  If I cut and paste from Professor Sahib Singh ji's Darpan, the Gurbani accents get mixed up, and I think it is something to do with auto font recognition in word, etc.  I have not found a way to fix it.  Very frustrating at times as I don't want to post wrong words of Gurbani even though they are correct in one document but when posted become bad!

Check out the <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>    <w:UseFELayout/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:10.0pt;     font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-ansi-language:#0400;     mso-fareast-language:#0400;     mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->Sidh Gosht thread I added something of a draft.


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## spnadmin (Mar 21, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> *PS*:  Yes this font thingy drives me nuts.  If I cut and paste from Professor Sahib Singh ji's Darpan, the Gurbani accents get mixed up, and I think it is something to do with auto font recognition in word, etc.  I have not found a way to fix it.  Very frustrating at times as I don't want to post wrong words of Gurbani even though they are correct in one document but when posted become bad!



I think the work-around is to use the Professor Sahib Singh teeka at http://www.srigranth.org.

Find the shabad and then look up to the right hand corner. You will see where you can select among other things the "teeka" of choice, either Professor Sahib  Singh, or the Faridkhot teeka. Make your selection and the commentary will appear below the translation. Copy that text, and paste it. You avoid the problems that occur with other copies of the GGD on the web.

Example:  http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=1

See if that is better.


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 21, 2011)

spnadmin ji I work off-line for most posts and usually have separate PDFs trying to compare and then understand.  Parts of the Darpan work fine it is the Gurbani lines which mix up in the Darpan .pdf from GurbaniCD.

Thanks,

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Mar 21, 2011)

You can also get the gurbani lines using srigranth. Check the link. The shabad is always just above the commentary. Both will always be in the AmmoLipi font.


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