# Polygamy In The Case Of Jathedar Of Patna Sahib



## vijaydeep Singh (Apr 27, 2005)

Gurfateh

Das has only few minutes left for computer yet will try to complete this issue and seeks the reply and opinons of other in this case.

Well Jathedar Iqbal Singh Ji do preach and himslef do a good lot of Naam Abhyas(the practise to rember the name of God).

Any person like this becomes less interested towards sex and may indulge only to reprodue or sometime with his wife.Then Jathedar Ji also preach vegitarianism(das though eats meat but appriciates and support his type of vegitrainism which even tells to avoid veggi junck food but nothing related to Paap or Punya).

So if such person has wife then and who could be not staisfied by her husband as she wants then she may find someone else.

Das was told in Patna Sahib that single person is not given room here as once a 'Granthi's' wife eloped with another Granthi.

That could be another case.

But in case of our Jathedar Ji,He told that his first wife left her house and went perhaps without telling.

After a good lot of time he got remarried to another girl.As he himslef a Jathedarof Panth he may not obey Hindu Law which makes Sikhs also to act as a Hindu(there should be sepearte law for Sikhs in India and not to be clubbed in hindu law).

So they were living happly thence but it happened that by some good reason the first wife returned Back to her husband.

Had he been Brahmanical Hindu,he would have killed her.But he is Jathedar and he still accepted her. and kept both the wives.

Then on idealogical issue there were some people who Jathedar Ji got reprimended by Panth.

so such guys thought to make use of this extra oridinary family situation of Jathedar and louched the complaint in Akal Takhat.

Das will never support the desicons of Jathedar Vedanti Sahib to give Tankha to Sirdar Sahib Gurbax Singh Ji Kala Afghana or Gurdit Singh Ji(writer of Mundavani) as they could have been a sort of discussion with them by any true Taksali or Nirmala and they could have been explained the facts which they might have overlooked.

But still in this case Jathedar Ji did a good work.He said that if the first wife of Jathedar of Patna Sahib complaints then only he could do anything.

Jab Mia Bivi Razi To Kya Karega Kazi.

But Das got a new Idea by this episode.

If we want to resotre polygamy in Panth we can have this rule that only after the permisson of first or consequent wife(s) ,Husband can bring in other wife(s).

Das has tried to be neutral but if Das has writtan anything wrong forgive Das and rectyfy his fault.In the aboe case first wife was not in seen when marrige occured.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 12, 2005)

Veer Vijay writes:

But Das got a new Idea by this episode.

If we want to restore polygamy in Panth we can have this rule that only after the permission of first or consequent wife(s) ,Husband can bring in other wife(s).

Das has tried to be neutral but if Das has written anything wrong forgive Das and rectify his fault.In the above case first wife was not in seen when marriage occurred.

in that case can the First and subsequent WIVES take other HUSBANDS...( after asking "permission" of course !!! ??
I am sure the Jathedar wont take too lightly on his wives having other husbands....

Gurbani clearly says;; EK JYOT DOI MOORTEE...TWO BODIES but ONE JYOT.  Gurbani doesn't say....CHAAR MOORTEEAAN.. or  SAAT MOORTEEAN

This is the CLEAREST GURBANI PHURMAAN that guru Ji considers a COUPLE to be composed of TWO BODIES...NOT MULTIPLE COUPLES !!!

Jarnail Singh


----------



## vijaydeep Singh (May 18, 2005)

Gurfateh



Well Das first of all wants to know the page number of the verse which Gyani Sahib Ji have are givng.



It may mean for Akal and Bhakt or God or Devote and to one Husband Akal we all Devotess are are like Wifes but Akals light is in in us also.



Then Das can say that if ployandry is encoueged then there could be a few flaws like we may not know whose offspring the lady is bearing.



Likly we may see that primate like Chimps etc only 2 chromosoons less then us have harms or polygamy.



Female produces one egg and that also for one month while famel prudues sperms in millions and during all the time.



Coming Back to polygamy subject.Mani thing Das knows is that unforutantly in India's Punjabis speaking Sikh population we are left with only 8000000 Sikh with uncut hairs and remaing of the 1.9 Crore(1 Creore is 10 Millions) are aposates.

Well in other communties due to polygamy etc, even if conversion is not there yet we have large birth rate.In Punjab due to one son each and daughter being killed further there is fall in Sikh population.



Dowery,Marrige outside Sih comuntiy are mnay other reason for fall in numbers of Sikhs and polygamy could be only the answer.



Well virus of Mongamy entered the Panth during Reform movement,When Arya Samjis were harping on Rama as Yug Purush(man of Age) for haviing one wife and as per then polygamy means lust.And similar views were of Protestants evengalist.

So our missionareis of that time were on defensive and does they did self inflicting theory to thinking of what outsiders will say.

While Muslims still stuck to what was there in their faith.As a result they got thier own nation and even in India better positions then Hindus..

Das is from those people who even may not marry but regarding Panthic numbers which do matter in democracy espeacly if we do not have any state supporting us.So if we have a Sikh state anywhere in world and we have control of immigration in Sikh dominated Areas we can think to debate but at present polyandry like Draupadi etc Das think may not solve the purpose.

Das is again repeatring that if any female does not want then male(her husband) can not have more then one wife.And that should be the rule.


----------



## vijaydeep Singh (May 21, 2005)

Gurfateh

Das first of all tenders an aplogy to all if his radical views have hurt anyone.

Das was only concern with a sort of misuse of equal rights some of our sisters misuse also.

Das does not support polygamy in general terms but in situatons it can be considered and may not be rgiedly opposed.

Like

1. There is no Sikh match for Sikh girl but Girl wants to marry a Sikh
2. No one is ready to maary a rape victom or Divorece(term Dohagan is used in Gurbani to one left out by husband)
3.To rehabitate poor,protitute etc.
4. Within family say if brother dies and another mareed brother if at all can also maarry widow of brother 
5. To rise popualtion of Panth in core Areas.
6.Unlike in punjab where middle class Jatt(Farmers) and Bhapas(Traders) prefer to keep small family to let them have less division of property we may have lower class in other part of the words who need large family to eran with labour or high class where we can affrod to have large family.

but have we reaqched that state that women is equal enough to veto the wish of her husband to remaary without undue pressure from Husband is the moost questiion.

Das is anyway happy that here Panth is atleast listening ti him and answering and defeating him in debate unlike Hindutva people who simplely did not allowed his post on this topic.


----------



## Arvind (May 26, 2005)

Dear Lee, 

Hope this discussion helps regarding your recent query about Polygamy.

Regards.


----------



## Lee (May 26, 2005)

vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> Coming Back to polygamy subject.Mani thing Das knows is that unforutantly in India's Punjabis speaking Sikh population we are left with only 8000000 Sikh with uncut hairs and remaing of the 1.9 Crore(1 Creore is 10 Millions) are aposates.
> 
> Well in other communties due to polygamy etc, even if conversion is not there yet we have large birth rate.In Punjab due to one son each and daughter being killed further there is fall in Sikh population.
> 
> ...




Sat Sri Akaal!

Vijaydeep Singh and cyber Sangat.

I understand why you say this but a few thoughts psring to mind.

This discounts all non Punjabi Sikhs, I have offten heard it said that Sikhi is not an Indian/Punjabi religion but one for the World.  Then isn't it a better idea to promote Sikhi everywhere, rather than say Punjabi Sikhs can have more than one wife or husband?  Anyway just because an extra Sikh is born, that does not automaticaly say that they will remain a Sikh.  In fact on that note, are you born a Sikh, or do you make the choice to become a Sikh.

The second thing that springs to mind is what is more important, that there be more Sikhs in the World or that your personal Sikhi is top notch?

Personaly speaking I would rather see more top notch true Gursikhs around than an increase in number of those that say and preach Sikhi, and practice Manmukh(heh of course I count myself in the latter)

To me the spread of Sikhi, is less important than my personal relationship with God.

Is this wrong?  Do tell.

Cheers,

Lee.


----------



## drkhalsa (May 26, 2005)

> Personaly speaking I would rather see more top notch true Gursikhs around than an increase in number of those that say and preach Sikhi, and practice Manmukh(heh of course I count myself in the latter)
> 
> To me the spread of Sikhi, is less important than my personal relationship with God.
> 
> ...


 
Dear Lee 

I agree with you that it is more important to few true sikhs than many sikhs jsut in name .but now in present world where politics and big management issues are decided on number bases even when they are not right so no. do have some significance in practical world nad offcourse I also agree that this is not the best way(Polygamy)to do that but still if conditions agree there is nothing against it and can be practiced as required by somebody .

Jatinder Singh


----------



## Hukum Kaur (Jul 11, 2005)

Their is a slight overpopulation problem in this world, procreating to increase the population of ones faith seems to be a mentality of the past. If one wants to have children it should be because they feel called to do so. God is telling them, now is the time to secure the futur generation. Married life is said to be the hardest Kria their is. Marriage with children is the black belt of martial arts. It is difficult enough with one spouse, very rare is the trio (or more) who can pull off poygamy without introducing jelousy and need. A woman's role is to serve her husband, does he need to be served two fold or three fold? A mans role is to relax his woman, does he have the ability to properly relax x amount of women at the same time? On the flip side, it would be very difficult to serve x amount of men and raise ones children. Having x amount of men realx you can get distracting and overstimulating. When you are intimate with somebody who is intimate with others, you are automatically connected with those others through that person. How many Karmas and psychies do we want to deal with at once? If one wants to rase more children and show them the rightious ways of the Sikh Dharma, addopt some children from India. I have heard terrible stories of women who croud around busses holding their wrapped babies up, asking for money. I do not want to support this 'trade', however these children will not be raised in love if their mothers would rather have money. Back to the issue of polygamy, when one has found the person with whom they can be selfishless with and humble towards and vibrate for, do they need anything more than such an exstacy?Sat Naam, Wahe Guru
Liv Kaur


----------



## jsingh45 (Jul 12, 2005)

Fateh all a question that I had wanted to ask for a while now, Was our Tenth Guru Guru Gobind Singh ji not wed to four women? Also did he not father his children from two different women? Please forgive me for my Ignorance


----------



## drkhalsa (Jul 13, 2005)

Dear Friend

Here is the thread which already has some disscusion and viewpoint about the topic you can read and give your regarding the topic , this thraed also address the same kind of question and so be of some help to you 

Jatinder Singh


----------



## Hukum Kaur (Jul 14, 2005)

What maters most is our marriage to God. We are all his wife, so he practices a form of polygamy. In reference to the tenth Guru being polyamerous, I feel as though it would be easyer for him to do so than any one of us, since we are householders. I am exploring this topic for the first time, my opinions can change. I say that if ones focus is the develpement of a home, then polygamy will add too much confution. The tenth Guru wed to four women, he is greater than I.


----------



## saintnsipahi (Jul 14, 2005)

Guru Fateh,


              I'm with a lesser Brain to say any thing about Our Tenth Guru. He is not only superior than a one but superior than any one living or dead of this Earth or of Else Where. If He got Married with 4 woman then how many of them produced Children. But for every Gursikh they are our MATA. We can't relate this topic to GURU GOBIND SINGH MAHARAJ at any cost. He hasn't done anything wrong in his life. He was full of Karizma.  If we can relate this topic with HIM then why shouldn't we all do as little as 10% of all of his works. Because it is not easy for us. And what we can do easiely like Polygamy and eating of meat and offco{censored} cutting of Hair. How can we relate this topic to our Tenth Guru.  Any other thing of HIM we cannot adopt but we can relate this TOPIC with HIM. Shame for us.


----------



## Arvind (Jul 14, 2005)

veer ji,

Forget 10%, Even 0.10% is too much to ask for from we sinners. Waheguru saanu sumatt bakhshan.

Regards.


----------



## jsingh45 (Jul 14, 2005)

Fateh all, I think we should introduce our tenth Guru into this topic,and why not? Was he not the one who organized the Khalsa, was he not also Guru and at the same time Disciple, can we not say he was what a perfect Sikh should hope to be? Should we not look to our father for our life lessons? Why do we shy away from these things, we must look at everything in sikhi to learn about it, not simply accept something at first glance without understanding why.


----------



## saintnsipahi (Jul 15, 2005)

bwrh mwhw mWJ mhlw 5 Gru 4 <> siqgur pRswid ]
ikriq krm ky vICuVy kir ikrpw mylhu rwm ] cwir kuMt dh ids BRmy Qik Awey pRB kI swm ]​
Naa koi Bairyee Naa koi Beaganaa
Sagal sang Hum Ko Bun Aayee II

Dear arvindji, Thanks for supporting me. I wanted to be a True Selfless Gursikh. And You and your team is inspirational for me. We all Know about Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj a very little. Sri Krishan had given a view of His vast appearance to Arjun in Mahabharat. And after That Arjun surrendered to Him and rest is History. In our History if we can see then We find Baba Deep Singh Shaheed, Who had seen a vast and majestic appearance of Guru Kalgidhar. Thats why He was be able to perfom a such a superb devotion towards Guru Saheb. That made a History of a unbeatable kind of. 
Sri Krishan was known as 16 Kala Sampooran. But Our LORD Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj is Sarab Kala Sampooran. We are not able to see HIS this kind of appearance now. Because we don't know the meaning of surrender because we are living in 5 thieves world. In my view Baba Deep Singhji may not wanted to be in Sikhi Again because of our kind of Sikhs. As all Gursikhs are knowing of Guru Saheb And His Family. But at any cost we ara devalued to make a point on HIM like this. We can't see our sins and our contributions. But we can make any thing to Guru Saheb. If anybody has seen a portrait of a line of dead persons going to the Chitrgupat for getting Swarag Or Narak. And in that portrait every dead person is holding a bag on his back and they can't see at back. They are going straight only. The message in that When they are holding the bags on their back, they can see only others bag who is in front of them. That is the main problem of today's world also. Because we can't see ours but can see others sins.
My wish is to, That every Gursikh can see the majestic charismatic Guru Gobind Singh.
I'm sorry if me or any of my words are hurtful to any Gursikh, I'm regreted for that.



bwrh mwhw mWJ mhlw 5 Gru 4 <> siqgur pRswid ]
ikriq krm ky vICuVy kir ikrpw mylhu rwm ] cwir kuMt dh ids BRmy Qik Awey pRB kI swm ]​


----------



## roopsidhu (May 17, 2010)

SSA,
Vijaydeep ji, the slok Giyani ji wrote is on ang number 788 of SGGS ji writen by Sri Guru Amardas ji.
As quoted by vijay ji
Well Das first of all wants to know the page number of the verse which Gyani Sahib Ji have are givng.
It may mean for Akal and Bhakt or God or Devote and to one Husband Akal we all Devotess are are like Wifes but Akals light is in in us also.
Here vijay ji asks the ang number and at the same time, even without reading that slok, started guessing (It may mean for Akal and Bhakt or God or Devote and to one Husband Akal we all Devotess are are like Wifes but Akals light is in in us also.)
Veer ji be patient. Read the slok yourself and then reciprocate. The discussion you have started is very important and needs cool heads to think.
bhul chuk maaf
roopsidhu


----------



## Lee (May 17, 2010)

Hukum Kaur said:


> What maters most is our marriage to God. We are all his wife, so he practices a form of polygamy. In reference to the tenth Guru being polyamerous, I feel as though it would be easyer for him to do so than any one of us, since we are householders. I am exploring this topic for the first time, my opinions can change. I say that if ones focus is the develpement of a home, then polygamy will add too much confution. The tenth Guru wed to four women, he is greater than I.


 

Hukam ji,
I too have been thinking about this subject for a time, and what I find is that I can find no 'hukam' witihn Sikhi that bans such a thing.  Of course personaly I would have to say that the reason one may contemplate polyimory has much to do with it.

Is it okay for example to wed the window of your brother to bring her into the house to care for her and any dependants? That is, are the any rules strictly forbiding such a thing?


----------



## spnadmin (May 17, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *Hukum Kaur
> *I am exploring this topic for the first time, my opinions can change. I  say that if ones focus is the develpement of a home, then polygamy will  add too much confution. The tenth Guru wed to four women, he is greater  than I.



Has it been stipulated in this discussion or anywhere else that Guru Gobind Singh had 4 wives at one time? I would appreciate seeing some credible evidence in this regard. Something akin to the evidence we have of the numbers of wives and concubines of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Thanks to anyone who can answer my question, Narayanjot Kaur


----------



## Astroboy (May 17, 2010)

In Sikhism, man and woman are equal. Which means the Asa Di Waar tuk
BHAND MOO-AA BHAND BHALIYE can also be applicable to allowing widowed women to remarry. 

In the case of polygamy, if a man is not forbidden to have two wives, 
then a woman should also not be forbidden to have two husbands. 
If there is objection, where are the written laws?


----------



## roopsidhu (May 17, 2010)

SSA,
Agreed with namjap, In sikhism women are treated equal to men and also women had contributed same as men in the history of sikhism. Then why women shuls not have the same rights as men. They must be treated equal.


----------



## Tejwant Singh (May 17, 2010)

This matter needs a deeper reflection from all of us. Polygamy was very common when Nanak was born. I used the word Nanak on purpose because we are using about the time not about His vision at the moment. 

Polygamy was practiced both in Hinduism and Islam openly. Even the ascetic kinds or claimed to  be so in Hinduism had sex because it is a natural thing. 

Having a group of concubines was not uncommon in the Mughal era.

We are all aware of this in the Catholic Church for this kind of " exercise".

Mormon Church known as LDS encouraged polygamy which claimed that it was  "God sanctioned" practice till they got their own  state Utah and had to stop the practice.

When Guru Nanak asked us to live the life of a house holder  by making its foundation on the three pillars - Naam Japnah, Kirat Karni and Vand kei Chaknah, he made us become responsible people. He taught us how to cultivate love and harmony in the family and this can not happen when there is polygamy.

Sikhi is a unique way of life unlike any other religion. Our Gurus gave us the foundation to be good and productive human beings, to conduct our lives with dignity and fight for injustice.

The interesting part about polygamy is that it is only discussed about Guru Gobind Singh ji. No one else. This sounds as fishy as DG.

But as they say in one of my many countries I call home, when one is a headache, who needs more?!!

Tejwant Singh


----------



## kds1980 (May 17, 2010)

I don't understand what is the purpose of bumping 5 year old threads and then replying to posts of people which are not even on SPN now.


----------



## spnadmin (May 17, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> The interesting part about polygamy is that it is only discussed about Guru Gobind Singh ji. No one else. This sounds as fishy as DG.
> 
> 
> Tejwant Singh



Tejwant ji

I have also read insinuations that Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Har Rai, and Guru Hargobind also had more than one wife. "Insinuations" is chosen deliberately because there is never any effort to explain this except to say it was common in those days. These were also remarks made in passing in larger paragraphs. The pattern of insinuation seems to start with those Sikh Gurus who were an overt threat to the power of influential Muslims and Brahmins. Yes "fishy."

See the post of "Punjabi G" of May 12 at this link http://www.sikhnet.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2026  He expresses similar astonishment and offers an interesting explanation of the "fishiness."

I have also just located several "fishy" sites where the exact number of wives is listed for our 4 Gurus in question.


----------



## roopsidhu (May 18, 2010)

The thread has reached to a point where extra care has be taken by the administraters. Some matters are very senstive to touch, but still the silence ( no answer) is not the solution. The wise heads should decide, which direction the thread should move
roopsidhu


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 18, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> I don't understand what is the purpose of bumping 5 year old threads and then replying to posts of people which are not even on SPN now.



1. Not everyone has read all the posts..bumping is one way of .."turning over the soil"....so new ideas can sprout !! Farmers do that regularly...and Guru nanak ji was a "farmer".....of ..... "souls"...."manns"...aatmas..and sreers....and we do the same at SPN...

2. the person/poster may have left...BUT the replies are NOT for Him/Her..they are for EVERYONE..guests, casual visitors, walk in browsers..regulars...ALL are welcome.

3. Further to point 1 above. The one other great soul i admire is said to be a "Shepherd"...and his followers are "sheep..or his flock"...and His job is to GUARD his flock/sheep from Harm (wolves and thieves)
GURU NANAK JI on the otherhand is a FARMER...a HOUSEHOLDER...who ploughed the EARTH to produce food for his HOUSEHOLD..and Guru Ka Langgar to FEED the WORLD. SPN is like that..we plough the "threads and posts"..to "feed" the world that comes knocking at our doors..


----------



## kds1980 (May 18, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> 1. Not everyone has read all the posts..bumping is one way of .."turning over the soil"....so new ideas can sprout !! Farmers do that regularly...and Guru nanak ji was a "farmer".....of ..... "souls"...."manns"...aatmas..and sreers....and we do the same at SPN...
> 
> 2. the person/poster may have left...BUT the replies are NOT for Him/Her..they are for EVERYONE..guests, casual visitors, walk in browsers..regulars...ALL are welcome.
> 
> ...



Well ITs O.K  To read old threads.But the people who write posts atleast expect reply from posters or the one who have participated in discussion.This thread was active till 15 july 2005 and posters like vijaydeep,Dr.khalsa,hukam kaur are no longer here.So what's the point to replying to their posts


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 18, 2010)

well..polygamist iqbal is still around...as jathedar of the same patna sahib...so the TOPIC is relevant....and begs answers and feedback. Even IF Iqbal kicks the bucket tomorrow or the day after.....his actions will still be a TOPIC of discussion- right or wrong !! SO i humbly submit that we are discussing TOPICS..not individual posters..becasue this is a PUBLIC FORUM for PUBLIC INFORMATION.....always relevant....


----------



## spnadmin (May 18, 2010)

Yes this is an old story! But it is also like an old wound that has not healed and has become a chronic affliction. 

The subject of Iqbal Singh, in his post as jathedar, and as a polygamist, was still relevant in 2008 when he excommunicated Professor Darshan Singh, via the power of his Takht at Patna. The story continued to be relevant throughout 2009 during SGPC proceedings against Professor Darshan Singh. Iqbal Singh  was not included among the 5 who signed the edict. He was deliberately excluded in large part because of controversies, some of which he himself instigated with other jathedars, that sprang out of unresolved charges of bigamy. Which by the way he still disputes and his wife still protests. This has actually been covered in other threads in the past year at SPN. 

The character of Iqbal Singh remains current issue for those who follow the politics of the Takhts.


----------



## spnadmin (May 18, 2010)

On the subject of polygamy and our Gurus. These allegations have been promoted time and again by diverse parties with the one and only objective of undermining Sikhism. Main perpetrators are islamists, sympathizers of sant samaj, western scholars who persist in planting Sikhism in a Hindu garden, and members of the panth who are obsessed with  documents of questionable historical value (such as the Bansavalinama) that paint the life sketch of Guru Gobind Singh with a saffron palette. These parties go as far as to say that Guru Har Rai had 7 wives. Anyone whose is unaware of the controversy needs as much information as possible. In other words -- we cannot just leave that hanging out there without comment. It may hurt and we might want to sweep this under the rug. But is that the right thing to do?


----------

