# Sikhs Pay 20 Mil. 'Jazia' To Pak Taliban



## dalbirk (Apr 17, 2009)

http://www.zeenews.com/southasia/2009-04-16/523971news.html*Sikhs pay Rs 20 million in Jizia to Pak Taliban 
*





Islamabad, April 16: Members of Pakistan's minority Sikh community living in the restive Aurakzai tribal region have paid Rs 20 million as "tax" to the Taliban after militants forcibly occupied some of their homes and kidnapped a Sikh leader.

The Taliban had demanded Rs 50 million as 'Jizia' – a tax levied on non-Muslims living under Islamic rule – but the militants finally settled for Rs 20 million. 

After the amount was paid yesterday, the militants vacated the homes they had taken over and released Sikh leader Saiwang Singh, officials in the tribal region near the northwestern city of Peshawar were quoted as saying by the Daily Times newspaper. 

The officials said the Taliban had announced that the Sikhs were now free to live anywhere in Aurzakzai Agency. The militants also announced they would protect the community, saying that no one would harm them after they had paid Jizia. 






Sikhs who had left the area would now return to their homes and resume their business, the officials said. 

The militants had occupied at least 10 homes of Sikhs in Qasimkhel village on Tuesday. About 35 Sikh families have been living in Qasimkhel for many years. 

The Taliban demand for Jizia was resolved at a jirga or council held yesterday through the efforts of local tribal elders. The militants had said the Sikhs should pay Jizia in accordance with Shariah or Islamic law. 

Bureau Report 

</B>


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## spnadmin (Apr 17, 2009)

What else are Sikhs going to be forced to do in accordance with Sharia? WoW!


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 17, 2009)

we spill tears over 84 and now we have more to come ...where is Dal khalsa ?? where is simranjit mann ??? where is babbar khalsa??....bahaar aao ...come out ..


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 17, 2009)

This is shocking, this is what was happening in Guru Sahibs time.  Wake up, Wake up Sikhs.  The very Saint that so many 'sikhs' called a terrorist is needed now.  Ironic isn't!  

There is no need to call out other Jatha's, organizations, groups name since you don't do anything yourself.

Its on every Sikh to help out here, not a certain group.  This has to be addressed from Akal Takht and the *right* actions taken toward the Taliban.

Does anyone know if the SGPC has said anything yet.


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 17, 2009)

bro the terrorist and his henchmen cannot do anything ..i know Santji is needed but they were all on their payroll thats of ISI...none can raise heads against their masters....as it is they will flaunt their kirpans among innocent hindus ..but tell them to face the terrorists they are like dogs waggin their tails between their legs...u remember during the kashmir terrorist attacks in the beginning the great akali simranjit mann had gone to the jihadis to exclude sikhs from their lists ..he was on his knees...he must have paid them a good amount of jizia..


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 17, 2009)

Aman Singh ji, please tell people not to spread their propaganda about a great Saint.

Here is a facts about Sant ji

- He stood infront of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji at Akal Takht and did ardas that if Harmandir Sahib is attacked he will fight, which he did and was martyred in the fight.  A person that is on a payroll does not risk his life for a cause that will not generate him revenue.  If your in for the money then all you care for his the money and take off before the Indian army rolls up with the tanks.

Your story doesn't make sense rajkhalsa and I'm asking you nicely to stop spreading your hate and propaganda about a Great Saint.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 17, 2009)

'RajKhalsa' if you don't mind saying, how old are you?

I'm 22 born after the attack of Amritsar.


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 17, 2009)

i m 31 ..look i respect the man for his parchaar ..but his politics ..is the main reason for our disgrace...the HariMandar Sahib was attacked because he had made the holy place his 'den' ...you may say it nicely or badly veer ji ..but truth cannot be changed ..if you go around cursing hindus and India ..what do u expect ? bouquets ??


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## pk70 (Apr 17, 2009)

rajkhalsa said:


> i m 31 ..look i respect the man for his parchaar ..but his politics ..is the main reason for our disgrace...the HariMandar Sahib was attacked because he had made the holy place his 'den' ...you may say it nicely or badly veer ji ..but truth cannot be changed ..if you go around cursing hindus and India ..what do u expect ? bouquets ??




*Raj ji

If ever you want to seek the truth, never give in to one side, that is what I have learned in my life. In the court that is why truth is not sought on hearsay(propaganda) but evidence. When evidence is tainted, truth goes through the drain as per "Law and justice" How any one can make us judges of others when actually we have nothing but propaganda without any evidence. let me put it simple way about Sant Ji, " he was honest unlike other politicans and straight forward but he was not a politician, I wish he was!" He was not against Hindus at all as some have propagated. The only words he used "topi" was not for Hindus but for politician(Congress particularly because all Hindus dont wear topi)) I can just hope you will listen and think and do search on this from all sides as I did.
*


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 17, 2009)

rajkhalsa said:


> i m 31 ..look i respect the man for his parchaar ..but his politics ..is the main reason for our disgrace...the HariMandar Sahib was attacked because he had made the holy place his 'den' ...you may say it nicely or badly veer ji ..but truth cannot be changed ..if you go around cursing hindus and India ..what do u expect ? bouquets ??


 

Raj, again with the propaganda. you let go of the first propaganda post and now spreading more. 

The people that are disgracing Sikhi are the ones that speak out against Sant ji. He did not ask to be a leader. Sikhs wanted him as their leader. Sant ji came to Harmandir Sahib and it was attacked!! People must be really gullible to believe some non sense like this. 

These fairy tales you keep coming up with are Badals and supportors fantasies.

Next you'll say Sant Kartar Singh Khalsa was a terrorist.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Apr 17, 2009)

not against anyone but its funny that those who imagined a joint country(Khalistan or whatever) with pakistan must be getting a wake up call now.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 17, 2009)

Why was the Punjab sealed off..made incommunicado to the rest of the world ? Whats was so secret ??
Why were all outsiders like the BBC shut out from Punjab ? whats there to HIDE ? In a Democracy ??
Why were 52 OTHER Gurdwaras also attacked simultaneously ? this was underplayed !! Many dont know till today that this happened...
The DAY chosen to attack was totally wrong... the Harmandir was chock full of PILGRIMS...as it was the Traditional Shaheedee GURPURAB of Guru Arjun Ji Sahib. ** something no democratically inclined Govt would do to its citizens. Why chose to involve hundreds of thousands of inncoent PILGRIMS in  a battle ? unless the idea was to inflict Maximum casualties on civilians.
So many unanswered questions remain...
500 years of SIKH HISTORY is ample proof that SIKHS NEVER raised their hands on INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Sikhs fought face to face in open battle and only with the enemy - not innocents. It is preposterous to charge with innocent murders...


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## pk70 (Apr 17, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> not against anyone but its funny that those who imagined a joint country(Khalistan or whatever) with pakistan must be getting a wake up call now.




*Am{censored}nghera Ji*
*Who were those Sikhs who wanted Khalistan with Pakistan; would you kindly point out? How I missed that information,  I wonder? Are you talking about Dr Chuhan who blended in Indian politicians before he died?*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 17, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> not against anyone but its funny that those who imagined a joint country(Khalistan or whatever) with pakistan must be getting a wake up call now.




Actually choosing to side with India didnt turn out that well either...1984 etc etc etc ALL the Nehru=Gandhi "sweet and solemn promises" thrown into the Dustbin of   "times have changed.." Now we are the MASTERS !!! The Empire struck back with a vengeance !!..from Day one 1947...

And this Jazia thing..its sanctioned by the Prophet as one staretegy to subjugate the non-islamics..It was IMPOSED on HINDUS of INDIA for thousand years under Muslim Rule.
Read Robert Spenscers Truth about Muhammad.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Apr 17, 2009)

Gyani ji

i differ on this. 

we cannot imagine an alternate scenario without building a realistic alternate view. This is one basic premise in Future planning and strategy.
http://www.valuebasedmanagement.net/methods_scenario_planning.html

In my view, being an Indian was the most favorable solution in the scenario of 1947.


G Singh ji,

I am sure you were around in punjab in 84-92 and were aware of various Sikh-muslim unity and joint punjab theories. I don't have a digital proof for those. Maybe you can try your luck on youtube.

Raj Khalsa hit the nail on the head with the Master- pay roll theory for the Sikh militants- ISI


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 17, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> Gyani ji
> 
> i differ on this.
> 
> ...


 
I have the same question as G SIngh, and I wasn't around in 84-92, so kindly tell us who you are refering to. Specific names would be nice.

'RajKhalsa' propaganda is nothing more than fairy tales.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Apr 17, 2009)

Singh ji

maybe you don't understand but using names on an internet forum is a potentially risk business 

fairy tales for some, facts for some.

 Doesn't matter anyhow...does it?


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 17, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> Singh ji
> 
> maybe you don't understand but using names on an internet forum is a potentially risk business
> 
> ...


 
Why would you mention some people then back away from clarifying who they are. Sound like people just make things up.:yes:

Thanks God Sant ji never was like this. He stuck to the Truth and didn't use fairy tales and call them the facts. 

So many people ready to criticize, but can't do anything themselves.


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## pk70 (Apr 17, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> Gyani ji
> 
> i differ on this.
> 
> ...



*Amar Sanghera Ji

I doubt we should believe blindly in SIS or CBI etc, here in CIA many things were cooked up, truth was exposed, the Head  of it felt sorry, such scrutiny is not in the luck of  people of eastern countries, they are made to think what CBI or ISI etc says as the final truth.  There was a lot of then Indian Government's  involvement in the bad days of Punjab went through, their dishonesty was to out BBC etc.  You are very well aware of the fact, clapping needs two hands. People in power always blame others instead of taking responsibility thats why I dont give a hoot to what report they publish.*


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## spnadmin (Apr 17, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> Singh ji
> 
> maybe you don't understand but using names on an internet forum is a potentially risk business
> 
> ...



amarsanghera ji

I think you are speaking of internet crime -- stalking and harassment. Statistics are there that tell us that stalking and harassment that starts on the Internet many times evolves into face to face crime when the stalker/harasser tracks the target down in his own home town. You are pointing out something that people continually dismiss. Threats on the net should be taken very seriously. And protecting personal identity is something no one should apologize for. Using a screen name only should never be challenged. Both Canadian and US federal law enforcement devote entire websites to protecting privacy and personal safety.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 17, 2009)

Here is an interest fact, it has been noted that the CIA were behind the bombing of the world trade centers in 93. 

Here is an interesting fact about America. The American went into Iraq on false causes during the Gulf war. The Iraq troops were accused of killing infants in incubators and they even had a UN official say I buried 14 babies myself. But when the Human rights agency went in none of the incubators were missing and there was not one baby found killed by the Iraq troops. Also they had one girl say in a televised news conference that she was an I witness to these killings. But then it was found out that the girl that gave the I witness account was the Kuwaits ambassador to United States daughter. And once the Ambassador was asked if the public needed to know if it was his daughter or not he said it was irrelevant. America had the whole world fooled. They went in to kill Saddam and steal oil, but couldn't finish the job so they went in recently and finaly finished the job after killing thousands of troops and innocent people, all over a personal vendetta and oil.

Now let's look at the Indian government of 1984. They didn't like Sikhs because we wanted our freedom. Nehru said you will get it, but then spat on us. Nehru has been recorded saying I wish I can just blow Punjab off from India because of the Sikhs. He hated us from day one and his promise were only made to comfor the Sikhs. Once he was in power he laughed at the Sikhs and did as he wished. Indira Gandhi did the samething, but took it to a higher level by killing innocent Sikhs and anyone that supported Sikhs. if you agree with the ISI on this issue then I'm sorry to say you are the biggest fool in this world. None of the actions taken by Indira Gandhi and afterwards make sense or add up.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 17, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> amarsanghera ji
> 
> I think you are speaking of internet crime -- stalking and harassment. Statistics are there that tell us that stalking and harassment that starts on the Internet many times evolves into face to face crime when the stalker/harasser tracks the target down in his own home town. You are pointing out something that people continually dismiss. Threats on the net should be taken very seriously. And protecting personal identity is something no one should apologize for. Using a screen name only should never be challenged. Both Canadian and US federal law enforcement devote entire websites to protecting privacy and personal safety.


 
Aad ji what does this have to do with what we are discussing here?


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## spnadmin (Apr 17, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> Singh ji
> 
> maybe you don't understand but using names on an internet forum is a potentially risk business
> 
> ...



*This*


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 17, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> *This*


 
You and amar are talking about two different things here.  He's speaking about the people that wanted Kalistan and Pakistan.

You are speaking about some internet crime and disclosing your name and being a victim of stalking.

Two different things.


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## pk70 (Apr 17, 2009)

Singh said:


> Aad ji what does this have to do with what we are discussing here?



*Singh ji
aad jio is responding to Am{censored}nghera ji's internet reference, its kind of a detail on that.
* 

*Regards
G Singh*


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 17, 2009)

seems i jumped the gun here

alrite, proceed


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## spnadmin (Apr 17, 2009)

pk70 ji

Thanks -- that is what I thought too. Nothing in the thread specifically speaks to naming public figures or not-so-public undercover characters by real names. I was more concerned with the idea that a forum member who uses a real name instead of a screen name could be exposed to the whims of the evil-minded, including a range of operatives and criminals working political agendas and shady rackets. It has happened, and better to play it safe. Sometimes these types congregate on forums using fake profiles waiting for a political target to disclose facts regarding a personal identity.


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## pk70 (Apr 17, 2009)

*aad jio

Actually we all should thank you on this valuable advice( and free of charge  )* *Singh Ji got it.* *So many thanks for this.
*


*Regards*


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 18, 2009)

In essence amar completely avoided the question of who are the people that supported the Khalistan and Pakistan unity.  First he makes a claim then backs away from supporting his claim. 

Thanks Aad ji and G Singh ji I understand what amar was saying.:happy:


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 18, 2009)

Singh said:


> Here is an interest fact, it has been noted that the CIA were behind the bombing of the world trade centers in 93.
> 
> Here is an interesting fact about America. The American went into Iraq on false causes during the Gulf war. The Iraq troops were accused of killing infants in incubators and they even had a UN official say I buried 14 babies myself. But when the Human rights agency went in none of the incubators were missing and there was not one baby found killed by the Iraq troops. Also they had one girl say in a televised news conference that she was an I witness to these killings. But then it was found out that the girl that gave the I witness account was the Kuwaits ambassador to United States daughter. And once the Ambassador was asked if the public needed to know if it was his daughter or not he said it was irrelevant. America had the whole world fooled. They went in to kill Saddam and steal oil, but couldn't finish the job so they went in recently and finaly finished the job after killing thousands of troops and innocent people, all over a personal vendetta and oil.
> 
> Now let's look at the Indian government of 1984. They didn't like Sikhs because we wanted our freedom. Nehru said you will get it, but then spat on us. Nehru has been recorded saying I wish I can just blow Punjab off from India because of the Sikhs. He hated us from day one and his promise were only made to comfor the Sikhs. Once he was in power he laughed at the Sikhs and did as he wished. Indira Gandhi did the samething, but took it to a higher level by killing innocent Sikhs and anyone that supported Sikhs. if you agree with the ISI on this issue then I'm sorry to say you are the biggest fool in this world. None of the actions taken by Indira Gandhi and afterwards make sense or add up.


Support all these claims.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 18, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Support all these claims.


 
bhagat, what you should be asking is *why* would singh make a claim that CIA were behind the 93 bombing, the false cause about going into Iraq, and then about Nehru and 84??????

This is one question I would like you to answer honesty and without making jokes.

About the 93 bombing I saw it in a video it was about 9/11, don't know exactly which video, it's been a while.

About Iraq, I saw it also in a video, which was presented to me by a university professor.  If I find the video on the net I'll post it here under a new thread.  Can't remember exactly, but I believe it was one of those CBC specials.

And lastly Nehru the lair and about 84, its general information that one can extract from the net.  Collected this information from many different sites, books, and videos.(unfornately don't have the links on the comp anymore)  You should look into it if your really interested in knowing both sides.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 18, 2009)

dalbirk said:


> Sikhs pay Rs 20 million in `Jizia` to Pak Taliban
> 
> Sikhs pay Rs 20 million in Jizia to Pak Taliban
> 
> ...



Jazia is discrimination. It is apartheid. You may as well give the Sikhs yellow stars to wear.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 18, 2009)

Singh said:


> bhagat, what you should be asking is *why* would singh make a claim that CIA were behind the 93 bombing, the false cause about going into Iraq, and then about Nehru and 84??????
> 
> This is one question I would like you to answer honesty and without making jokes.
> 
> ...


Singh ji
There could be a variety of reaons WHY you make a claim. what I want to find out is how strong the support is, behind your claims. I read some material on Khalistan that claimed that Nehru was a liar along with most other Hindu politicians of the time. Then I read some material that said that most quotes that people use to claim such a thing, have been made up. 
So can you present to me evidence that will convince me that Nehru and such were liars and that America had the whole world fooled?


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 18, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Singh ji
> There could be a variety of reaons WHY you make a claim. what I want to find out is how strong the support is, behind your claims. I read some material on Khalistan that claimed that Nehru was a liar along with most other Hindu politicians of the time. Then I read some material that said that most quotes that people use to claim such a thing, have been made up.
> So can you present to me evidence that will convince me that Nehru and such were liars and that America had the whole world fooled?


 
Since you want to see how strong the support is and haven't answered my question to why I would make these claims, what do you want me to present which will satisfy your need and meet the standard of the strong support you ask for?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Apr 18, 2009)

<Why would you mention some people then back away from clarifying who they are. Sound like people just make things up.:yes:

Thanks God Sant ji never was like this. He stuck to the Truth and didn't use fairy tales and call them the facts. 

So many people ready to criticize, but can't do anything themselves. >>


Singh ji, i am not sure if you ever heard the so called Sant ji in real life. I am assuming your knowledge is based on the youtube based videos or propaganda books.
Dear singh jii

you yourself post something about Nehru:

<<Now let's look at the Indian government of 1984. They didn't like Sikhs because we wanted our freedom. *Nehru said you will get it, but then spat on us.* *Nehru has been recorded saying I wish I can just blow Punjab off from India because of the **Sikhs**.* He hated us from day one and his promise were only made to comfor the Sikhs. Once he was in power he laughed at the Sikhs and did as he wished. >>>

any documentary proof to prove the allegation you make here?
please note that any "baseless" and "without proof" allegation you make with names on Internet, even if it is under guise of a nick name is liable to criminal/civil proceedings


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## Archived_Member_19 (Apr 18, 2009)

<<And lastly Nehru the lair and about 84, its general information that one can extract from the net. Collected this information from many different sites, books, and videos.(unfornately don't have the links on the comp anymore) You should look into it if your really interested in knowing both sides. >>

Singh ji

there are many authors who have been writing books to prove that humans came to Earth from some other galaxy and Aliens come and vitis earth frequently.
Amazon.com: Chariots of the Gods: Erich von Daniken: Books

Fictional imagination does not work while discussing historical figures. Internet is not always the most accurate source of information.
Here is a research document, you might like to read on internet information acuracy:

Accuracy of information on apparently credible websites: survey of five common health topics -- Kunst et al. 324 (7337): 581 -- BMJ


However, to your point of mine not substantiating names of peple who claimed pak-khalistan unity, my anwer is that i would not like to drop names of people "alleged" as terrorists andcriminals by one country's government.

If you have so much curiosity, you might like doing some research.


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## lalihayer (Apr 18, 2009)

Punjab was majority Sikh or Akali. Indira needed another Sikh party so vote can be divided into two parties. Congress started encouraging Santji (through Zail Singh etc). Santji got powerful and saw a good opportunity to bring back Khalsa Raj. There was help from Pakistan off course, but militants were not sold to ISI (_As RajKhalsa being a apparent anti-muslim and pro-RSS AND amarsanghera being pro-Indian, maybe ex-serviceman or policeman or personally burnt during militancy days_ are saying).
'84 Lok Sabha was coming close. Santji became strong and people started getting killed. Indira saw good opportunity to show herself as Durga again (repeat of '71 Bangladesh operation). 
Eventhough Santji was in Amritsar only, number of Gurudwaras were attacked simultaneously, Punjab was seized. As expected, she won applause from all circles (even BJP !).


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## pk70 (Apr 18, 2009)

Punjab was majority Sikh or Akali. Indira needed another Sikh party so vote can be divided into two parties. Congress started encouraging Santji (through Zail Singh etc). Santji got powerful and saw a good opportunity to bring back Khalsa Raj. There was help from Pakistan off course, but militants were not sold to ISI
84 Lok Sabha was coming close. Santji became strong and people started getting killed. Indira saw good opportunity to show herself as Durga again (repeat of '71 Bangladesh operation). 
Eventhough Santji was in Amritsar only, number of Gurudwaras were attacked simultaneously, Punjab was seized. As expected, she won applause from all circles (even BJP !).  

*People may not like it but actually above statement carries a lot of truth which is ignored by many. Openly Thakre threatened India's basic rights of citizen, look how it was dealt.
Zealots in Guru times reported to intelligence services that Guru Teg Bahadur Ji was a "Robber" Can you imagine. Lie lie lie and it becomes truth eventually.* *I wish people seek truth the way courts try to do by analyzing bothe sides. Shaheed Bhagat Singh ji and others just couldnt tolerate foreigners, they were declared terrorists by the foregners, through out Nehru and Indra's regimes, they remained terrorists in Govt papers, only after  Raj Babbar processed a bill to take off that shameful title given by foreigners to its own people, an action was taken.. Whenever of these politicians intentions were questioned, proof is asked. They never gave any proof of attacking Harmindar Sahib on the day of martydom of  Guru Arjan Dev, simple people went there to Harminder Sahib, the way it was handles cannot be justified with any reason. Khushwant Singh who remained a supporter of Indra for a while returned his highest award after the attack not because of Sant Ji but how it was dealt. , no body now cares about these things, only thing is left to accused  Sant Ji for all this. To understand militancy, one need to dig deep down.* T*his is my prediction, if Indian leaders do not end baised behavior towards any miority or group, keep inflaming people's  religiou sentiments, keep supporting some agressive groups and suppressing others, there will never be peace in India and the outsider will take advantage of India. I feel, young Indians should over throw these old narrowminded leaders and replace them with those who love their country more then individual agenda*


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 19, 2009)

<Why would you mention some people then back away from clarifying who they are. Sound like people just make things up.:yes:

Thanks God Sant ji never was like this. He stuck to the Truth and didn't use fairy tales and call them the facts. 

So many people ready to criticize, but can't do anything themselves. >>




amarsanghera said:


> Singh ji, i am not sure if you ever heard the so called Sant ji in real life. I am assuming your knowledge is based on the youtube based videos or propaganda books.


 
Again avoiding the remarks.  And about Sant ji, didn't have to meet him face to face have family members that met him.  And yes the youtube videos where he gives speeches are a great source.  Sant ji doesn't hide behind political correctness like some people.:yes: 



> you yourself post something about Nehru:


 
yes I do and your point is 




> any documentary proof to prove the allegation you make here?
> please note that any "baseless" and "without proof" allegation you make with names on Internet, even if it is under guise of a nick name is liable to criminal/civil proceedings


 
YES there is proof.  

Well then 'amarsanghera' you should really look into telling your fairy tales and also tell your associate 'rajkhalsa' the same.  For me telling fairy tales just doesn't do it; something about the whole fantasies that lies in them that turn me away from them.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 19, 2009)

<<And lastly Nehru the lair and about 84, its general information that one can extract from the net. Collected this information from many different sites, books, and videos.(unfornately don't have the links on the comp anymore) You should look into it if your really interested in knowing both sides. >>



amarsanghera said:


> Singh ji
> 
> there are many authors who have been writing books to prove that humans came to Earth from some other galaxy and Aliens come and vitis earth frequently.
> Amazon.com: Chariots of the Gods: Erich von Daniken: Books
> ...


 
amar, maybe this will lead me to the fairy tales rajkhalsa keeps writing about. 




> However, to your point of mine not substantiating names of peple who claimed pak-khalistan unity, my anwer is that i would not like to drop names of people "alleged" as terrorists andcriminals by one country's government.
> 
> If you have so much curiosity, you might like doing some research.


 
It's not about curiosity on my part. It's just when a person say 'some people' and then adds an accuation against them...... It's human tendency to ask who these people are and to expect an answer from the person who said it. If you did not like to drop names then it would have been smart not memtion it at all. Also if I wanted to be like you and run the 8 mile I would tell you, 'if your so curious about Nehru then you might like to do some research about him.'


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## spnadmin (Apr 19, 2009)

Please go back to what Randip Singh ji has written a few posts back -- That is what is distressing and should focus our attention like ice water thrown on our faces -- a wake up call! We are witnessing the persecution, oppression and marginalization of Sikhs by a rotten streak of humanity in a country that is caving inward and cannot/will not protect them. What are we looking at tomorrow, next week, next month in terms of their future? Please address this topic!


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 19, 2009)

As my initial question to this topic got losted in off topic post.

Has Akal Takht or SGPC said anything about this alarming event?


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## Randip Singh (Apr 19, 2009)

Singh said:


> I have the same question as G SIngh, and I wasn't around in 84-92, so kindly tell us who you are refering to. Specific names would be nice.
> 
> 'RajKhalsa' propaganda is nothing more than fairy tales.



Ok This has gone off topic.

As someone who was around in 1984 and had relatives cayght up in the stuff that went on I will ask you to find out the following:

1) What is the significance of Sanjay Gandhi and Bhindranwala?

2) Why was Bhindranwala (pre-84) campaigning for teh Congress against Akali's?

3) Why was Bhindranwala described as Gandhi's "Frankenstein" in newspapers?

If you can research these points, without making comments of "propaganda" then we can move on.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 19, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Ok This has gone off topic.


 
This was established Randip, but you prefer to go back off topic below.



> As someone who was around in 1984 and had relatives cayght up in the stuff that went on I will ask you to find out the following:
> 
> 1) What is the significance of Sanjay Gandhi and Bhindranwala?
> 
> ...


 
I have heard these fairy tales and read up on them myself. They make a nice way to destroy a honest mans name. After he's gone all gloves come off for these cowards that write this stuff. There foaming at the mouth to discredit honorable people. Whatever a dog is fed he will eat.

I would ask you to quote yuor references but it would be a waste of my time and many other readers, since your last point speaks loud and clear 'newspapers'. Randip your an educated man and i'm in the process of getting a higher education. As of highschool I learned in the second year, don't believe everything a newspaper tells you or what is broadcasted on the television as 'news'. Ever since then i flop down on the couch grab some popcorn and turn on CNN. It's entertainment at its best:happy: And if im in the mood to read one sided articles or assumption stories/articles or fairy tales i pick up the local newspaper and even sometimes read a book, which claims to be unbaised. It's a great way to put your critical thinking skills at work.:happy:


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## Archived_Member_19 (Apr 19, 2009)

it's amazing how one member is allowed to just call other members posts as fairy tales without having any credible reason or documentary proff for his/her own assertions.

i am out of this discussion unless moderators can do something about this.

peace !!


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## dalbirk (Apr 20, 2009)

lalihayer said:


> Punjab was majority Sikh or Akali. Indira needed another Sikh party so vote can be divided into two parties. Congress started encouraging Santji (through Zail Singh etc). Santji got powerful and saw a good opportunity to bring back Khalsa Raj. There was help from Pakistan off course, but militants were not sold to ISI (_As RajKhalsa being a apparent anti-muslim and pro-RSS AND amarsanghera being pro-Indian, maybe ex-serviceman or policeman or personally burnt during militancy days_ are saying).
> '84 Lok Sabha was coming close. Santji became strong and people started getting killed. Indira saw good opportunity to show herself as Durga again (repeat of '71 Bangladesh operation).
> Eventhough Santji was in Amritsar only, number of Gurudwaras were attacked simultaneously, Punjab was seized. As expected, she won applause from all circles (even BJP !).


 
Lali Hayer Ji ,
You deserve all the applause for being SPOT-ON . The most apt description into the reasons for the events of 1984 . I don't sometimes understand why these so-called MODERATE Sikhs shy away from discussing 1984 ? I'm also pro- India ( Not Khalistan fan ) but the events should be analysed by each & every Sikh & also ( I wish ) Hindus . The enemies of Sikhs ie.Congress & BJP (RSS ) r no friends of majority of Indians either who r oppressed & exploited . The reason IMHO why RSS(BJP) is opposed to Sikhism is due to its Anti-Castism in nature . The base of so-called Hinduism ( Brahminism ) is its caste system , without its Varna System ( Caste System ) it cannot be defined , right from Rigveda onwards it is this system which has been stressed again & again in all Vedas , Shastras , Upnishads , Puranans like Ramayana , Mahabharata etc & also Smritis .
After humbling of Buddhism in 7th & 8th century onwards by Adi Shankracharya & followers , Sikhism is the biggest cahllenge that has come to Hinduism . Sikhs need to analyse events leading to 1984 & come up with solutions . The solution IMHO lies in the rise of regional parties which is the scenario in India theses days , the SAD(B) did a smart thing in tying up with BJP(RSS) , now Congress cannot label it as communal or anti-national & also Sikhs as terrorists as a whole . But now SADB should find other ways to leave BJP(RSS) which is more of a liabilty to party rather than an asset now & tie up with third front type group . Or Sikhs should try getting some other Akali Dal in limelight . SADB is also failing in its duty in the field of preaching , which is helping more & more Deras to come up with Congress's help . This rise of Deras bring in its fold the fear of more 1978 Nirankari type events 
or more recent Sacha Sauda , 2007 type events propped at the order of Congress ( who knows it maybe Radha Soami, Beas in future ) , then a vicious circle starts in which whole Hindu Media jumps labelling Sikhs as terrorists , communal which stop DERAS from their job of RELIGIOUS PREACHING ( don't know which religion they r preaching or catering to ? ) Then pro-Congress or pro-RSS channels play their own part in maligning Sikhs , the more they protest , the more they r maligned . I was very young in 1978 , but this 2007 event I followed very closely & came out with the conclusion that things r being played up very-very similarly . Only difference this time was that Badal played his cards really well & refused to take the bait , took refuge of Akal Takhat Sahib & gave ample security to Salabatpura Dera & other Deras of Sacha Sauda . But this event shook me entirely . I had voted for Congress in 2007 elections believing the propaganda of Capt.Amarinder Singh to be most pro-Sikh & pro development , but came to this conclusion that Congress is the real enemy of Sikhs , what sympathy it had for Sikhs ? Even after more than 1,50,000 Sikhs being killed in the decade of insurgency due to the events of 1978 Nirankari episode , it had not mended its ways . Almost things were played exactly like a Bollywood remake . My idea is to give SADB more time to mend its ways or go with any Akali Dal which is free of influence of either Congress or RSS(BJP ).
It may all be off-track the topic we r discussing but could not keep myself jumping in with my bit .


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## Randip Singh (Apr 20, 2009)

Singh said:


> This was established Randip, but you prefer to go back off topic below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Errr no they are not fairytale's. 

The fact you do not know about these facts says volumes about the sources you use.

Pre-1984 and the attack on Harmandir Sahib it is a fact Bhindranwala was reviled by 99.9999% of the Sikh community because of his association with Congress and what he did against the Akali's.

Let me put it this way, if you carry on the discussion here or veer off topic, I will delete your posts. If you cannot be bothered to find out the truth and look at it from both angles then you do not deserve to have your views published here.

Regards.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 20, 2009)

amarsanghera said:


> it's amazing how one member is allowed to just call other members posts as fairy tales without having any credible reason or documentary proff for his/her own assertions.
> 
> i am out of this discussion unless moderators can do something about this.
> 
> peace !!



It's called the last bastion of ignorance my friend.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 20, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Errr no they are not fairytale's.
> 
> The fact you do not know about these facts says volumes about the sources you use.
> 
> ...


 


> Let me put it this way, if you carry on the discussion here or veer off topic, I will delete your posts.* If you cannot be bothered to find out the truth and look at it from both angles then you do not deserve to have your views published here.*


 
Randip, you have authority over me here.  If someone has authority it's wise to use it with caution.  If you wish to spread your propaganda, I call it this because I have looked at both sides of the story, then I will speak out.  You deleteing my post because I speak out is a pure abuse of your authority.  If you look back a page I believe it is me who is thanking Aad ji that Aad ji put the thread back on its tracks.  It was you who brought the 84 issue back up.  And, you expect me to sit back and let people just say their hatred toward a great Saint, Not in this world Randip.

Not trying to be disrespectful, but you abusing your authority here is completely uncalled for.  You can express your views, but others can't!!!! :shock:


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## GillAUS (Apr 20, 2009)

Getting back on topic:

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab


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## Randip Singh (Apr 20, 2009)

Singh said:


> *If you wish to spread your propaganda*,


 

This is your final warning. No one is trying to spread propaganda

You use weasal words with me one more time and I will see to it that everyone of your posts here is closely watched and edited..


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## kds1980 (Apr 20, 2009)

> The reason IMHO why RSS(BJP) is opposed to Sikhism is due to its Anti-Castism in nature . The base of so-called Hinduism ( Brahminism ) is its caste system , without its Varna System ( Caste System ) it cannot be defined , right from Rigveda onwards it is this system which has been stressed again & again in all Vedas , Shastras , Upnishads , Puranans like Ramayana , Mahabharata etc & also Smritis .
> After humbling of Buddhism in 7th & 8th century onwards by Adi Shankracharya & followers , Sikhism is the biggest cahllenge that has come to Hinduism



Dalbirk ji

Apart from some sikh writers imagination The above statement hardly has any truth.Sikhism never spread out of Punjab Due too lack of interest by sikh leadearship so how can we say that sikhism was biggest challenge to hinduism.After 7th ,8th AD
Hinduism faced biggest threat and lost against islam.Then hinduism faced challenge from christianity and then communism,Athiesm.In all the above threats I mentioned Hinduism ended up as losing side.RSS ,Hinduism hardly consider sikhism as threat.They could have consider sikhism as threat if sikhism would have been spreading like wild fire but unfortunately this is not the case now.


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 20, 2009)

O Singh veera ..o thand rakh yaar ...look man if i criticize sant ji for one reason i also praise his pre 78 activites ..he had everything ..one thing lacked ...THE POWER TO DIGEST THE POWER HE ACQUIRED...i am his fan when it comes to his speech during parchaar...i have his speeches..they are filled with hatred towards hindus in general and brahmins in particular ...this had been going on for a long time ....

Here is something from Khushwant Singh's book 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+2]*Oh, That Other Hindu Riot Of Passage*[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*By Khushwant Singh*[/FONT]


Did the Sikhs deserve to be taught a lesson? I pondered over the matter for many days and many hours and reluctantly admitted that Hindus had some justification for their anger against Sikhs. The starting point was the emergence of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale as a leader. He used vituperative language against the Hindus. *He exhorted every Sikh to kill 32 Hindus to solve the Hindu-Sikh problem*
some more news :


On August 17, 1983, *Bhindranwale asked Sikh youth to buy a motorcycle and a revolver and threatened to kill 5,000 Hindus in an hour if the police delayed the minibus he had sent to fetch Amrik Singh who had just been released from police custody.
*
On November 17, 1983, Bhindranwale bluntly demanded *'that all Hindus should leave Punjab


*So here we see how there was a terrorizing technique this Bhindranwala used ...

Well i appreciate the hindus patience that they did not terminate him at that time ..too much of tongue wagging had been done by him. 

I ASK EVERYONE OF YOU...A DERA LEADER WORE THE TYPE OF CLOTHES OF OUR BELOVED GURUJI AND MIMICKED THE 1699 EVENT WE WERE ANGRY AND WANTING TO TERMINATE HIM...Do you expect the hindus to be calm when he openly threatened them ???

Singh veer ji ..you can call me RSS or anything else ..even a muslim hater ..i dont mind that ..think what you wish...i know one thing ..I am a Sikh and my Dharam does not teach me betray my country and for me it will be the biggest sin to commit atrocities on unarmed and innocent people.

We always think of  the colony of our people in delhi who are victims of 1984 ..what about those who are victims of bhindranwala and his dirty politics ...there are many of them ..some sikh ..some hindu... 

Singh veerji our Master is Akaal Purakh and not bhindranwala....


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 20, 2009)

veer ji ..why is there in fighting ..come on i agree i m not too pro bhindranwala...i dont agree to bullying ever ...just dont ..because my Guru ji didnt ..if that guy bullies the hindus ..he did do it ..there is documentry and visual..both proof available ...there is no need to get upset over it ...i m not upset if u r pro...we have bigger issues to resolve veer ji ...we r just going 25 years back ..lets move ahead ..we want to see light at the end of the dark tunnel.....

PEOPLE ...INSTEAD OF WE PONDERING OVER TALIBAN'S THREAT WE R CURSING AND FIGHTING EACH OTHER ...SEE ..THIS IS CALLED A TYPICAL INDIAN ATTITUDE ...INSTEAD OF TALIBAN'S ISLAMIC THREAT WE R FIGHTING OVER BHINDRANWALA....CMON GUYS ..THINK OF BEING TYAR BAR TYAAR ...AND BEING TOGETHER...CAN WE END TALKS OVER BHINDRANWALA HERE.....????


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 20, 2009)

so are other singh...see u can continue with yor threads ..no one feels upset or even dusgusted about ..u have yor proof ..i have proof ...let people judge...wish u the best veer ji...since i m not here to win or to lose..but to share.....Best of LUCK !!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 20, 2009)

Guru Piayario Jios,
Gurfateh.

Sikh History has literally hundreds of thousands of pages written IN BLOOD. From Day One in 1469..the SIKHS have had to face great ODDS..we had to fight and fight hard for just our basic survival.
Our Gurus were martyred, , our men women and children were martyred, our families were uprooted and the entire Kaum had to live on horseback and constantly on the move to remain alive, our heads were bought by the Govt.....and we faced huge Massacres called Ghallugharas in which thousands died.
Its aFact of history that we Sikhs didnt have the time or resources to Save our Glorious history, or write it down ourselves. It is to the credit of certain historians, who ins pite of being of other races and religions still couldnt simply ignore the Truth and managed to write some of our history..for example one Muslim Historian who hated the Sikhs and calls them ( Saags)  DOGS....had to grudgingly acknowledge that these "dogs" were extremely honourable in battle, never struck at unarmed men, or women and children, never harmed any innocents and fought like lions.  For nearly 2 centuries...Our Gurdwaras, our Takhats, our Holy Scriptures were all in alien hands - some friendly..others downright hostile. This long period of neglect also distorted our valuable history and records were tampered with at will by hostile elements who took advantage of our situation.

It is  fact of history that the VICTOR always writes the History. What happened in June 1984 and later, was no worse than the First Two major Massacres of Sikhs that ocurred in the 18th Century..Wadda Ghallughara in which about 30,000 Sikh Men, women and children were massacred by enemy forces, and the Chhota ghallughara in which about 17,000 sikh men and children were again surrounded and massacred. The 1984 events are no less horrendous. Untold numbers of Sikh men, women and children had to pay with their lives. The Victor has made tremendous efforts to paint the Sikhs as the "evil" that had to be curbed. Intelligent persons are fully aware of the circumstances and the whys and the whens of 1984...but the untiring relentless effort of the Victor to lay the entire blame at the "losing sides door" is continous...and doesnt look like abating even after the passage of heartrending 25 years.
What beagn as a Peaceful fully democratic Movement for the resl=olution of Legitimate Punjabi (SIKH) Demands and political Rights...was allowed to be transformed into a Anti-India, Anti- Indian Unity, violent movement towards secession adn independnce. The "TRUTH" has been so well hiddena dn obscured..that while it si natural for Non-Sikhs, Non-Punjabis to be swayed by this relentless Govt Propoganda to paint Sikhs in avery bad light as separatists, terrorists, and downright evil beings that ought to be eliminated absolutely...even most SIKHS today are not aware or fully in touch with the True Facts of what the Punjabis and Sikhs have been doing since 1947 and what dirty politcs was behind denying Punjab its legitimate Rights to its Own Waters, Capital City, Electricity Generation, Language etc etc etc.

That is background..BUT what happened in june 1984 is also beign made murky. Its the Truth that the June 3rd 1984 Attack was fully pre-planned, and executed with military precision. The Undeniable fact that 52 other GURDWARAS all over Punajb were SIMULTANEOUSLY attacked by the Military is often buried deep and never brought up. The Organised Massacre of thousands of innocent PILGRIMS in thsi planned attack was also preplanned. No oen cna escape the blame or deny thsi because any INDIAN worth hsi salt woudl be aware that on the GURPURAB DAY of the FOUNDER of Harmandir Sahib...the CROWDS at harmandir are always so vast that there is almost no place to even stand still. WHY choose this Auspicious day to ATTACK the Holy Place when its patently obvious that such an attack would have horrendous casulaties among CIVILIANS. Thsi Attack MIRRORS the Organsised attack by the Mughal Forces at Wadda Ghallughara and the Chhota Ghallughara. Those massacres also ocurred because the attacking forces attacked Sikh Men  and  women and children massed at one place who were surrounded  by superior miliratary forces...and massacred. In June 1984 NO attempts were made to delay or bring forward the attack to AVOID the GURPURAB...no attempts were made to separate the CIVILIANS...in fact all attempts were made at complete secrecy so that the MAXIMUM numbers of civilians shoudl attend the event as usual.

Such OPEN SECRETS are avilable for anyone..and now DHAR has published thsoe he knew or was privy to. And these Open secrets confirm the dirty facts. Thsi book has been translated to punajbi as Khulleh Bhed. Such dirty tactics are employed by ALL countries..the CIA, the KGB, the Mossad, the Gestapo, the RAW etc etc...BUT only certain political leaders commit mass murder like this on their civilians...like Hitler, Stalin...and Indira Gandhi. Also in this politcila world..as Hitlers propoganda minister Goebbels once said...A LIE  repeated sufficient times becomes the "truth"..the Sikhs are terrorists/separatists/criminals "tag" was applied in 1947 and having been repeated almost incessantly by the entire spectrum of Indian Media... seems to stick somewhat....at least in certain minds as "truth".
Now its not the same situation as in the 18th Century...NOW we have Sikh Intelligensia, Sikh Academicins, Sikh historians..and its their duty to bring the TRUTH to public notice as well as they can. No doubt today we have sold out political leaders, bribed sikh writers who are willing to write anything for money, as well as traitirs etc..but the situation is not entirely hopeless...the TRUTH is out there..and it cna be brought home....we just have to have the WILL and the MEANS.
There are plenty of Living wittnesses..and proofs / evidence available...but time is of the essence...before things get all blurred up, mixed up and semi-forgotten in the mists of time. There are various books of eye-wittness accounts as well as "sarkaree" materials..BOTh must be evaluated objectively to arrive at the truth that is unassailable due to solid evidences.

Its  a undeniable fact that the Khalsitani Movement was heavily infiltrated by Govt Agencies...acts of horror were committed by Govt Agents and Rogue militias under the command of rogue police officlas of high rank and the balme for these horrors were laid at the door fo teh Sikh militants to deny them Public Support. police Cats etc are well known fact....and some have surfaced recently.
YES..the Big Tree did fall in Delhi...BUT the Truth was that the Sikhs were not hurt by its fall...BUT by certain people who picked up its fallen branches...and began whacking the SIKHS with those branches..and the Anti-Sikh progroms began and ran unabated for 3 or 4 days while the law enforcement stood idly by and watched its own citizens slaughtered. Enough Reports by Independent Unbiased Human Rights Groups and Concerned Citizens exist to evidence this.

The SIKHS are at the Crossroads..and standing still...exactly what the Anti-Sikh elements desire. It is up to the SIKHS to shake off this INERTIA..and DESPAIR...pick up the pieces and begin the March FORWARD. Our Gurus never gave up..never admitted defeat..fough against greatest of all odds with CHARDEEKALLA - its about time we SIKHS showed this behaviourial ASSET that our GURUS GIFTED US.
UTTH JAAG SIKHA..Pagree SAMBHAAL OYE..Paggrree Sambhaal SIKHA..looteh gayeh Laal tereh..looteh gayeh laal oyeh.:advocate::advocate::advocate:


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 21, 2009)

Gyani ji...if that Sant of yours cared so much...when he saw the military coming in ..when he saw bullets being fired ..why did he not step out and stop that madness..instead he added to that madness...he knew they were after him...instead of blaming the Govt who wanted to stop his mafia behaviour ..and all those stories of Govt infiltration ..well whether true or false....let me as you one thing why had the Govt penetrate ??? It was a separatist movement ..spitting venom...wanting to divide the country...so what do u expect them to ??? wait for the country to split ???? yes its true that the people among Govt ..the police officers...let me add here ..there were both types who earned medals from it ..hindu and sikh....officers from both communities ..who had used that power grow ..did those acts ....also your Dal Khalsa...and bhindranwale tiger force and AISSF....killed innocent hindus ...bombed railways ...do u want the people here to belive that yor guys were innocent ...??? 

I can tell you Gyani ji...even if it is my father ..but if he is a separatist..if it comes to my knoweldge that he is revolted against the nation ..I will hestate to take his life ....


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## kds1980 (Apr 21, 2009)

rajkhalsa said:


> Gyani ji...if that Sant of yours cared so much...when he saw the military coming in ..when he saw bullets being fired ..why did he not step out and stop that madness..instead he added to that madness...he knew they were after him...instead of blaming the Govt who wanted to stop his mafia behaviour ..and all those stories of Govt infiltration ..well whether true or false....let me as you one thing why had the Govt penetrate ??? It was a separatist movement ..spitting venom...wanting to divide the country...so what do u expect them to ??? wait for the country to split ???? yes its true that the people among Govt ..the police officers...let me add here ..there were both types who earned medals from it ..hindu and sikh....officers from both communities ..who had used that power grow ..did those acts ....also your Dal Khalsa...and bhindranwale tiger force and AISSF....killed innocent hindus ...bombed railways ...do u want the people here to belive that yor guys were innocent ...???
> 
> I can tell you Gyani ji...even if it is my father ..but if he is a separatist..if it comes to my knoweldge that he is revolted against the nation ..I will hestate to take his life ....




Dear Raj 

Whenever a separatist movement occur in a country we have to understand the root cause of a movement.No community support separatist movement unless there is some cause behind it.Here i want to show you something written by non sikhs about movement.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AN INDEPENDENT STUDY OF HINDU-SIKH CONFLICT IN PUNJAB
Dr. K. T. Lalvani (London) - S. Raghunath Iyengar (Lagos)
Chapter 1- Historic Bonds.

Among the religions of Indian origin, Hindu, Jain, Buddhist and Sikh, there is perhaps more in common between Hindu and Sikh teachings than any other two religions.

No two religious communities are bound together with numerous bonds as are Hindus and Sikhs. Both for instance firmly believe in Karma, re-birth and Mukti (MOKSHA). Although Sikhism has rejected the Hindu pantheon of gods and goddesses, caste system and ritualism, yet Sikhs have always defended, at times with their blood, Hindu rituals, their preferences and prejudices. Guru Teg Bahadur's unparalleled sacrifice of his head to protect the sacred thread and the forehead mark of the Hindus is inscribed in the psyche and history of both communities. Sikhs may not have worshipped the cow yet treated it as no less than a sacred animal. Many Sikhs lost their lives in opposing the British reintroduction of cow slaughter in Amritsar in late 19th century. Maharaja Ranjit Singh went on record for having banned cow slaughter not only in Punjab but even ordered its ban in the Islamic land of Afghanistan, and he asked for and secured the return of the doors of Hindu Somnath temple, looted eight centuries earlier by Muhamud

of Gazni. The same Sikh Maharaja gifted six quintals of gold for the Hindu temples of Benares, golden canopies for Jawalamukhi and Kangra temples and financed the repairs of the Vishwanath temple and its jewel-studded icon. To rescue a Brahmin's daughter, Sikhs fought a bitter battle with the Nawab of Kasur when over 500 Sikhs lost their lives. Sikh sacrifices for the oppressed have few parallels in history. The universally applicable scriptures of the Sikhs, 'Adi Granth' incorporates hymns of sufis and saints from Islam and Hinduism regardless of caste and creed. All the names, sacred to Hindus (Ram, Hari, Govind, Gopal, Thakur, Prabhu, Ishwar, Siva, Brahma, Indra) are repeated in Adi Granth time and again. Guru Gobind Singh, the founder of Khalsa wrote epics of Ramayana and Mahabharat under the titles of Ramavtar and Krishnavtar. His eulogising the exploits of Chandi as a warrior (not as a goddess) is well known.
Chapter 2 - Concern in Indian Society

There is indeed a lot in common between the two religions and it is not very uncommon to see that one brother may be a Hindu and the other a Sikh, living in the same house and respecting each other's religion. I for example, a Sindhi, following (like most other Sindhis do) Guru Nanak's traditional humble teachings for their simplicity in his message of truth and love embedded in his devotional hymns incorporated in the Sikh Adi Granth.

We, the overseas Indian citizens, Sindhis, Sikhs and other Hindus alike, are indeed most disturbed and concerned at the present Hindu-Sikh tension in Punjab and Haryana and feel the need to probe the reasons which have led to the prevailing conditions of mistrust, hate, jealousy and rivalry between the two communities in comparison with their brotherly relationship in the past and its scope in the future. Accordingly, I, on behalf of the Indian Merchant Association, U.K. and Mr. S. R. Iyengar, formerly a journalist and now an industrialist in Lagos, Nigeria, left for a preliminary study to report back our findings to various U.K. Associations. We prepared this report after spending considerable time in verifying the facts behind the complaints which we heard.

After arriving in India, we spent some days in Amritsar and Jullunder meeting various leaders, including Sant Bindranwale and Sant Langowal. There was total freedom of movement for every one, even inside the campus where leaders live. We kept our objective restricted to studying the reasons leading to the present-day Hindu-Sikh tension and Sikh rejection of being called a sect of Hinduism or a section of Hindu Society. Mr. S. R. Iyengar got down to serious study of fundamental causes Ieading to today's serious problems.
Chapter 3 - The Conflict

It did not take us long to trace the roots of this conflict way back to over thirty years ago, at the time when perhaps not even one Hindi daily paper existed in the East Punjab, when suddenly a vast majority of Punjabi Hindus influenced by Arya Samaj, Jan Sangh and local R.S.S, falsely claimed to be Hindi speaking almost overnight .

Thus they acted against strong advice from R.S.S. national leader Golwalker who pleaded to Punjabi Hindus to acknowledge Punjabi language as their mother tongue. The census results made the Sikh population in the state the sole custodian of Punjabi language, thus resulting in the declaration of Punjab as a bi-lingual state, in which Sikhs retained their Punjabi language and Hindus alienated themselves from the Sikhs by adopting the Hindi language of which the majority then had little knowledge, if any. This unfortunate development saw the beginning of friction between the two communities. Thus Punjabi Hindus became responsible for creating a bilingual Punjab state by disowning Punjabi as their language and yet forcefully and unjustifiably resisted the formation of Punjabi-suba on linguistic basis causing the delay of 10 years; this resulted in avoidable frustration and numerous agitations among the Sikh population of Punjab. Thus the language tussle of Hindi and Punjabi apparently took the shape of religious 

rivalry between the Hindus and the Sikhs. One Akali leader questioned: Why was the linguistic Punjab the very last state to be formed? Was it not due to discrimination against the Sikhs? Or, was it because our Suba agitation was too peaceful compared to the violent linguistic demonstrations elsewhere in the country?
Chapter 4 - Religious Jealousy

Replying lo my question of present day Hindu-Sikh relationship, Sant Langowal explained that when Zail Singh, as Punjab Chief Minister, named a secondary road as Guru Gobind Singh Marg, he was strongly criticised by Punjabi Hindus, in spite of their knowledge that Guru Gobind Singh (and so also his four children and his father) was born, lived and died for the protection of the Hindus. Comparing the situation, Iyengar commented that in Maharashtra, no one could dare dream of opposing the naming of Shivaji Marg. (Four days later, I had the privilege of meeting President Zail Singh in Rashtrapati Bhavan who confirmed that there indeed was unfortunate opposition to his naming of Guru Gobind Singh Marg).

Citing another example of communal jealousy against the Sikhs, Longowal explained that a few years ago, on the four hundredth anniversary of the city of Amritsar, Sikhs obtained permission from the Railway Board to display a picture of Guru Ramdas at the railway station as a 'Founder of the city of Amritsar'. Upon this, there was an immediate reaction from city Hindus, who brought in a few unauthorised pictures of Hindu Yogis and demonstrated against the Guru Ramdas picture. Sant Langowal added that by rival action of this kind, Hindus in Punjab certainly make it very obvious that in their view Sikh Gurus were not Hindus. We went to witness the pictures at the station, which are there for everyone's verification. He narrated similar other incidents and added that religious jealousy and communal rivalry from the Northern Hindus against the Sikhs has gone a long way towards pushing us into a separate race of the Sikhs within India.
Chapter 5 - Sikh Patriotism and National Contribution

Langowal then referred to the Government's decision to reduce the Sikhs in the Army to less than two per cent and attributed it to continued discrimination and distrust against the Sikhs, who have not only proved to be among the very best soldiers in the country's defence, but also carry the most outstanding and the most distinguished record during the freedom struggle. Quoting from a report of Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, he provided us with the following figures: Out of two thousand one hundred and and twenty five martyrs, one thousand five hundred and fifty (seventy five per cent) were Sikhs. Out of two thousand six hundred and forty six, deported to Andaman (Kalapani) two thousand one hundred and forty seven (eighty per cent) were Sikhs. Out of one hundred and twenty seven Indians who were sent to the gallows, ninety two (eighty per cent) of them were Sikhs. In Subash Bose's Indian National Army of twenty thousand, twelve thousand were Sikhs. Not only did India's two per cent Sikhs make by far the highest co

ntribution to the country's freedom, but they also maintained the same tempo even after the independence of the country. Today, more than one third of the country's population lives on the grain produced and supplied from the land of Punjab, which was a grain deficit state with its barren lands at the time of partition of the country

The most important stride that the nation has made since freedom was the 'green-revolution', which is in the main a Sikh contribution from Punjab State, in which the investments from Central Government have been less than one per cent of the National Budget. In spite of this impressive track record of diligence, courage and patriotism, Sikhs have been the victims of continued discrimination and suspicion since Independence. Firstly, the government denied the linguistic status of Punjabi-speaking state, a basic constitutional right enjoyed by all other communities in the country. When at last the Suba was formed after fourteen years of frustrating and humiliating delay, we were again deliberately deprived of a 'capital for the state' and some Punjabi speaking districts. Besides, Central Government took control of our state's power and water supply headworks. Why was Punjab the only state to be discriminated against, on these counts? Is it a coincidence or is it because it happens to be the land of the Sikhs? O

ne of his aides added that it is this basic discrimination against the Sikhs which alienates the Punjabi-speaking race from the rest of lndian society. Sant Langowal condemned the recent unwarranted and inhuman police firing on 4th April 'Rasta Roko' agitation, killing 24 innocent peaceful Satyagrahis. He strongly resented the Government's suggestion of a foreign hand in the Akali movement. He condemned violence and strongly rejected Khalistan theory which, he said, was a ghost movement. A one-man hoax of Jagjit Singh Chauhan receiving undue and deliberate publicity by the press and the Government to discredit the Sikhs and their patriotism and to frustrate a peaceful Morcha for fair demands. He said, it is a well known fact, that Sant Bindranwale and his Dal-Khalsa were brought into politics by the Congress to confront the Akali party. He explained that the word Nation is a mistranslation of the word quom. He explained, India is a Nation of various races and quoms. Sikhs are one of them. On Hindu-Sikh confli

ct, he said our demands and Morcha are directed to the Government. Instead of joining us for mutually beneficial demands, the Punjabi Hindus started confronting our Morcha and played cry-wolf to turn our non-Punjabi Hindu brothers away from us. I would strongly welcome and support a committee to investigate the factions responsible for the present day Hindu-Sikh tension in Punjab and Haryana. 
Chapter 6 - Hindu Opposition

Replying to my question on Hindu-Sikh problems, Sant Bindranwale questioned me about Punjabi Hindus always opposing every Sikh demand made to the Government, be it a demand for a holy city or the naming of one train after the Golden Temple, or even naming of a road inside Punjab after the Guru's name. Why has not any Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or Jain ever opposed any of these demands? Whether or not Hindus of Punjab and Haryana, along with the Government, are responsible for the present day Sikh-Hindu tension, it is for you to judge from the recent history. Bindranwale then reminded me that the Sikhs have often supported Hindu religious causes, like the banning of cow slaughter, etc., but never once opposed any of their religious demands. We have never interfered in their religious affairs, yet the support of the Nirankari movement by the Arya Samaj was a deliberate move against the Sikh religion. This will explain to you, who are responsible for the communal tension in Punjab. For further proof you only ne

ed to look at communal utterings in the mass circulation newspapers of Punjab, owned by the Arya Samajists. This has been going on for the last 30 years. He said, "It suits the Government to publicise me as an extremist, thus making an excuse to frustrate the just cause and the legitimate demands of the entire Sikh community and the Punjab State. This also explains, why the Government is encouraging violence and communalism in Punjab."

Bindranwale was very bitter about the police atrocities and their murder of over 30 men in garb of false police encounters. He criticised the double standards of the Government citing various incidents, e.g. there was an immediate appointment of inquiry committee for Jagat Narain's murder and none for any killing of the Sikhs including the recent firing of 4th April on peaceful Satygrahis, killing 24 of them. These actions of the Government are designed to encourage extremism in Punjab. Bindranwale then talked of Sikhs as a separate nation (quom) within India like Muslim, Christian and Hindu. We disagreed with him and strongly emphasised our views of Hindus and Sikhs being the roots and branches of the same tree. He replied back saying that by their actions, Hindus in Punjab and the Government have proved it otherwise.

Speaking on the recent Government award on the holy status of Amritsar, Mr Prakash Singh Badal, former chief minister of Punjab, talked about the double standards of Amritsar Hindus. For several years they bitterly opposed our demand with their demonstrations and processions and then at the last minute they asked for a similar status for a contemporary non-historic Hindu Temple.

Instead of pronouncing the old walled city as holy, the Government has only allowed two hundred metres around the Golden Temple and at the same time exactly similar status has been provided to a twentieth century modern Hindu Temple of no historic significance as opposed to the Hari Mandir which was itself the foundation of the city of Amritsar besides being the seat of the Sikh religion. The city's name Amritsar too has been derived from the surrounding lake of the Golden Temple. We have absolutely nothing against the similar status given to a Hindu Temple, but, by this unthinkingly equating two temples of contrasting historical and religious significance, the Government and the Punjabi Hindus have emphasised that in their view the Sikhs are not Hindus and the two religions are distinctly different from each other. The Government has always encouraged and promoted the shortsighted rivalry between the Punjabi Hindus and the Sikhs. Mr. Badal explained that while he was Punjab Chief Minister during the Janata M

inistry, he placed the river water dispute before the Supreme Court. After her return to power, Indira Gandhi withdrew the dispute from the Supreme Court, and with a show of arrogance and high-handedness (she would not dare to do in any other state) compelled her Congress Chief Minister to sign her unilateral river-water agreement.

He claimed that Hindus and Sikhs are inseparable, and no amount of press propaganda or Arya-Samaj provocation can create a wedge between them. They have a common culture, history and social bonds. As the Sikhs had been created by the great Gurus for protecting the Hindu Dharma, there cannot be any question of confrontation between the two communities. On river-water issue, he said, "Instead of appreciating Punjab's 60 per cent contribution to Indian food basket, Government has made plans to deprive our farms of our own river-water."
Chapter 7 - Historic Lie and Falsehood

Mr. G. S. Tohra (M.P.) president of the powerful Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, in Amritsar was extremely critical of the deliberate massive publicity given by the Government to the Khalistan demand voiced by a few individuals. These 'disinformation' techniques are clearly intended to discredit the entire Sikh community across the country by amplifying and exploiting the Khalistan demand of the few. Sikhs have always been most patriotic and have always stood for a United India. Today we would have been living in a united peaceful Punjab if the Punjabi-speaking Hindus had not disowned their own Punjabi language. It was a misrepresentation of colossal magnitude in Indian History on the part of over ten million Hindus who lied in the Census and disowned their Punjabi language with open encouragement and support from their Arya Samaj and Jan Singh leaders at a time when there was not even a single Hindi newspaper in the combined state.

"Most of these millions of misguided souls were so totally ignorant of Hindi that even their one sentence of historic lie "we are Hindi speaking" was uttered in the Punjabi language. It was this platform of falsehood which became the foundation of Haryana and the basic cause of the division of our united Punjab."

The hatred for the Punjabi language continues in Haryana where Punjabi has been denied the status of second language, even though thirty per cent of Haryana's population is still Punjabi-speaking and Punjab is their neighbouring state. On the other hand Punjab is the only non-Hindi state, where Hindi has been accorded favoured treatment. It is a compulsory subject up to matriculation and every employee of the state government must acquire this standard before being confirmed. Punjab was the first state to use Hindi for correspondence with the Hindi-speaking States.

The Hindu opposition to the naming of Guru Gobind Singh Marg reflects their anti-Sikh prejudice and clearly implies that Guru Gobind Singh was not Hindu. Their opposition to the Sikh demand for the Golden Temple Express and the holy-city status for Amritsar were only few of the many incidents designed to alienate Sikhs from the Hindu Society. Mr Tohra then cited some examples of broken promises from Mr Nehru and Mahatma Gandhi and explained how the Sikh race has been sinned against in Free India, notwithstanding its stupendous sacrifices and sufferings, first for its freedom and then for its defence and development.

Mr Tohra was particularly critical of mischievous interpretation of Gurdwara Act. He emphasised that the proposed Act will be applied only to the historic gurdwaras and it will not cover the holy Shrines managed by the Sindhis, Udasis, Nirmalas, Nihangs etc. He strongly criticised the Government for banning the Sikh soldiers from carrying the swords, while Gurkhas in army continue to carry Khukris on their person. Mr Tohra appealed to the Hindus and Sikhs of Punjab to maintain unity and cordiality in the face of the Congress Government. He claimed that by limiting the Sikh recruitment to 2% the Government has brought communal politics in the armed forces and has confirmed its discrimination against the patriotic Sikhs.
Chapter 8 - River Water Injustice

Dr. Rajinder Kaur, M.P., daughter of Master Tara Singh asked, why should Punjab give away water to neighbouring states when its own fields are still dry?"

She referred to the recent statement in Indian Express by Dr. Kanwar Sain, former Chairman of the Central Water and Power Commission. According to him, Akali demand for the reopening of the river water issue and 1955 agreement is fully justified as Punjab is not given its due share. He said that the entire issue must be reviewed by the inter-state river waters tribunal. Speaking on the recent agitation, Dr. Kaur pointed out that over hundred thousand Sikhs have courted arrest in recent Satyagrah, while the maximum arrests during Quit India movement were sixty thousand. "Ours has been the biggest peaceful satyagrah the country or indeed the world has ever witnessed. It will be most unwise for the Government to underestimate Sikh sentiments and take advantage of our extreme tolerance which may not be everlasting," she stressed.

Mr. Khushwant Singh, former chief editor of the 'Illustrated Weekly of India' commented that one issue over which the Akalis have the unanimous support of the entire peasantry of Punjab is the distribution of the waters of the Ravi and the Beas. Punjab is the only riparian state and by any principle of law or usage it is entitled to all the water it needs and only give what it can spare. If Haryana is also regarded as a riparian state because it was once a part of Punjab then it is only fair that in any redistribution of waters. the Jamuna should also be included. However, the Akalis have been very reasonable on this matter and are willing to accept the verdict of any judge of the Supreme Court.

The longer it takes the government to come to terms with the Akalis, the more intractable will the settlement become. One specific instance of short-sightedness for which our country will pay a heavy price has not received the attention that it deserved: this is over the treatment meted out to Sikhs travelling by road and rail to Delhi during the Asiad. While the Asiad was on, every train, bus and private car proceeding towards Delhi was stopped and every Sikh questioned. None of this happened when the L.ok Dal organised its Kisan Rally or the communists their Worker's March. Did the government not realise that in singling out the Sikhs because it is easy to discover their identity, it was opening itself to charges of communal discrimination? We are likely to hear about this foolishness for a long time to come. If, God forbid, the Khalistan movement catches on, it will owe much to the foolish shortsightedness of Haryana Chief Minister Bhajan Lal and others whose duty it was to restrain him but failed in their

duty to do so. "I feel that an apology is owed to the Sikh community for the way it was treated during the Asiad, said Mr Khushwant Singh.
Chapter 9 - Biased Press Reporting

Dr G. P. Mansukhani, a Sindhi professor and author, agreed with the Akali complaint on biased newspaper reporting. He said. "If you were to trace the background of a reporter or an editor behind a particular anti-Sikh report, you would probably find him to be an Arya-Samajist." Late Lala Narian's persistent role in anti-Sikh activities (including that of his support to the Nirankaris) and his staunch communal tendencies were clearly reflected in his popular daily newspaper in Punjab.

Their biased reporting (due to their basic indoctrination against Guru Nanak and the Sikhs) may be understandable but not acceptable by any standard of fair journalism. He referred to various deplorable news incidents. We will quote one of them which happens to be from a popular magazine "India-Today," making an unfair and fatuous remark on one of the Sikh demands. In its cover story of 3.10. 81, "India-Today" argued against the Sikh request for Golden Temple Express by suggesting that it may give rise to a Muslim demand for a Jama Masjid Express. While this deliberate communal comparison was in very bad taste, "India- Today" conveniently forgot that Jama Masjid was not the world seat of the Muslim religion as the Golden Temple was for the Sikhs. Surprisingly, a year later the same paper, again in its lead story on the Sikhs (15.11.82), blames the Government for having delayed accepting some of the Sikh religious demands. On some occasions, the national press has failed to do justice to its usual high standar

ds. Giving an out-of-proportion high publicity of communal nature to an anonymous letter from one lunatic, threatening to blow up a temple which did not deserve a mention in any media were carried in headlines. Another ugly example of press reporting is reflected in the deliberate publicity which the national media has knowingly provided to the one-man show of self-styled Khalistan president Jagjit Singh Chauhan with practically no following whatsoever. Distorted and irresponsible reporting of this kind is against national interest and has resulted in discrediting the entire Sikh community across the country.
Chapter 10 - Arya Samaj Doctrines and Slander on Sikh Gurus

Prof. Mansukhani was hesitant to blame Hindus or Sikhs as such and put most of the responsibility on the Arya-Samaj's imposing their anti-Sikh communal views on the Hindus of Punjab, Haryana and neighbouring states and also adversely influencing the R.S.S. The Samaj has since recently started fanning anti-Sikh feelings in Maharashtra as well. He explained to us the history of Punjab Arya-Samaj and the role it has played in influencing Government decisions and in worsening Hindu-Sikh relationships. Of late some of them have started a shocking new anti-Sikh campaign, saying that since the wars arc now fought with guns and not with swords any more, a Sikh is no better soldier than any one else and the Indian army can do without Sikhs if need be. Even the most ridiculous anti-Sikh invention of this kind seems to have possibly influenced some Government and political circles.

Anti-Sikh policies and activities of Arya-Samaj are responsible for alienating the Sikhs from Hindu Society and pushing more Sikhs into saying that they are not Hindus. Arya-Samajis themselves during the last 100 years many a time proclaimed not to be Hindus. Veer Savarkar wrote that even in rigorous conditions of Kalapani, the Arya-Samaji prisoners refused to be called Hindus in the 1921 census and also refused to attend the Hindu temple and made their own, thus also adversely influencing their Sikh colleagues in Kalapani. Arya-Samaj have many times savagely criticised Sanatana Hindu Dharma and the word 'Hindu' itself. By any measure or yardstick, a Sikh is more of a true and valuable Hindu, than the Arya-Samajist, who in an attempt to hoodwink the other Hindus of India, pretend to champion the cause of Hinduism against Sikhism, by promoting Hindu Surakhsa-Samiti and the Sangathan against the Sikhs, who have sacrificed countless lives for protecting the Hindu religion itself. Due to irresponsible support fro

m some popular news-media, the cry-wolf clever tactics of Arya-Samaj seem to have succeeded in influencing many Hindus across the country which is a very unfortunate development.

Prof. Mansukhani branded Arya-Samaj as India's most fanatical cult, which according to him was a serious embarrassment to the tolerant and broad-minded religion of Hinduism and other religions of Hindu origin. He then quoted us the Arya-Samaj bible, written by Mr. Dayanand the founder of the cult. In it the author has savagely attacked Islam, Chrisitianity, Buddhism. Jainism and the lot. He has directly slandered Mohammed, Kabir, Buddha, Christ, Nanak, Gobind Singh and many others, all in the name of Hinduism.

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## Archived_member7 (Apr 21, 2009)

amazing content veer ji...i thank you from my heart ...it is truth...we can blame the arya samaj at large and others like those nirankari...see veer ji ..my view is clear i am neither anti bhindranwala nor pro...i like him and dislike him ...good things were his dharmak parchaar speeches..worst were his hatred filled political speeches...we need to take responsibilty of what had happened ..does any of those incidents incite a person to pick up ISI sponsored kalashnikovs and go around spraying bullets on innocents ??


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## pk70 (Apr 21, 2009)

*Some of the posts show that posters are sided with those who couldn’t wait for 10 days more to attack Darbar Sahib so that Guru Arjan Dev Martyrdom would pass because every good thing they expect is from others than the responsible leaders Surprisingly they never raise their voice against this genocide- like attack? They claim to be India- lovers but don’t sound like that. India is a country, its integrity is in the hands of its leaders, its unity is in the hands of leaders but sorry all leaders who were not criticized for leading to this genocide are the worse dividers of the country.[/FONT]*
* My Gurus never circled India into small divisions neither I ever did or would support those who talk about Khalistan but I will never forgive Indian main leaders for what they have done to my India. These favorites of some are still supporting some radical \groups and declaring others terrorists. This is what goes against the unity of a country. If a true leader wants go against radicals, would go against all regardless their affiliations, Indian leaders are too low to rise to that standard. Real leaders don’t stoop low this way. So for foresightedness of Indian leaders has been limited to votes, this is the way they are bankrupt in diplomacy.  Who suffers? Answer is the general public and the dear country as a whole which is being shamelessly dragged into divisional- conflicts. I have hope only on the youth which will not listen to one sided loud speakers and seek the truth as the writer of the above report did and protect the unity of India.[/FONT]*

*Kds1980 Ji[/FONT]*
*My special thanks for bringing this report by a non Sikh , these are the people who rise above narrow –line- drawn by one side in the name of religion or party. It goes deep into causes behind emotional bursts. One after another incidents led to that disaster and still there are some who are bent upon to blame on one guy. Picture is so clear that any one can see how bit by bit the ruining of unity of India at the hands of its own leaders, took place.[/FONT]*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 22, 2009)

*Re: Reported Post by rajkhalsa*

imho Rajkhalsa is too much of  a rss type...although he tries hard to project a different approach. In mostly all his posts the pro-rss/goi and anti-bhiderawallh/khalistani bias is clear.
The absolute truth is still to be settled and these questions that i aksed in my article will not just go away. I am Malaysian..and looking in on India from the outside...so i am not too much swayed by goi propoganda or any other.Genuine Hindu-Sikh unity has stood the test of time...no riots or disturbances ever in Punjab - a sikh majority state has proved this...its a small rss/arya samaj/fringe of Punjabi HINDU MAHASHAS that have and continue to ignite the flames of anti-sikh propoganda- first begun by the derogatory remarks about Guru nanak ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji in the Arya samaj books  Satyarath Paraksh and pamphlets which led to the Kahn sinh nabah book "Hum Hindu nahin..we are not hindus" which was lobbied by the rss lobby to be banned by the British (not done) but their anti-sikh stance never softened. Unfortunately  over the past 60 years they gained strength and at present have almost taken over all sikh institutiosn and the takhats, sgpc, akali dal badal and the patna, hazur shaib takhats etc. The Jalandhr Mahasha Press continues to spit anti sikh venom at every opportunity and they have poweful posts in the Goi like former Home Monster Gulzarilal nanda who did his best to make Punajb as small as possible in 1966, removing its waters, bhakhra, electricity and capital city to Central Control. No other state is discriminated - against... like this in india .
All this will not just disappear...especially a s sikhs now have settled abroad in large numbers and will keep the flame burning..similar to the exiled Jews of Israel over Europe for 2000 years. This article was posted in our local Forums last month..to date not a single anti-post...all fully supported the views as they are not biased but balanced. IN Malaysia there are not many indian sikhs as this country discourages immigration...and is also not the favourite of indian migrants compared to australia/nz,canada, uk usa etc.BUT nearly ALL who we meet are not afraid to speak the truth which they wouldnt dare mention while in India - fears of being blacklisted/passport denial/ etc... Speaks volumes about the "No support for Sikhs who demand rights in india...ALL Sikhs are very happy..satisfied etc etc.." types...given a genuine opportunity at Free refrendum..the Sikhs in punjab will speak up. Human Rights abuses did occur and independent enquiries are a must...but the record speaks of itself..no justice for the 1984 porgroms even after 25 years...neither in Punjab or outside.

BTW I am no Khalsitani..I want GURMUKHSTAN in all corners of the world as Guru nanak ji intended..Ghar Ghar ander Dharamsaal...World Peace and Unity that SGGS propounds.:happy::happy::happy:


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## Randip Singh (Apr 22, 2009)

rajkhalsa said:


> amazing content veer ji...i thank you from my heart ...it is truth...we can blame the arya samaj at large and others like those nirankari...see veer ji ..my view is clear i am neither anti bhindranwala nor pro...i like him and dislike him ...good things were his dharmak parchaar speeches..worst were his hatred filled political speeches...we need to take responsibilty of what had happened ..does any of those incidents incite a person to pick up ISI sponsored kalashnikovs and go around spraying bullets on innocents ??



There used to be a time when I was very pro-Bhidranwala. Today I am neither for or against. What I have a problem with is people who see him as some sort of Guru.

He was just an ordinary man. Like an ordinary man he had his good and bad points. He was certainly no demonic person. He certainly was manipulated by Congress, and he certainly did fight back against this manipulation (once he realised).

regards


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 22, 2009)

rajkhalsa said:


> Gyani ji...if that Sant of yours cared so much...when he saw the military coming in ..when he saw bullets being fired ..why did he not step out and stop that madness..instead he added to that madness...he knew they were after him...instead of blaming the Govt who wanted to stop his mafia behaviour ..and all those stories of Govt infiltration ..well whether true or false....let me as you one thing why had the Govt penetrate ??? It was a separatist movement ..spitting venom...wanting to divide the country...so what do u expect them to ??? wait for the country to split ???? yes its true that the people among Govt ..the police officers...let me add here ..there were both types who earned medals from it ..hindu and sikh....officers from both communities ..who had used that power grow ..did those acts ....also your Dal Khalsa...and bhindranwale tiger force and AISSF....killed innocent hindus ...bombed railways ...do u want the people here to belive that yor guys were innocent ...???
> 
> I can tell you Gyani ji...even if it is my father ..but if he is a separatist..if it comes to my knoweldge that he is revolted against the nation ..I will hestate to take his life ....



Rajkhalsa Ji,
Gurfateh.

First of all the SANT Ji has  a Name..Sant Gyani Jarnail Singh Khalsa.He is not "my" sant....even though i share his name. He deserves respect if not for anything..but sticking to his guns when he has said his final ardass.

1. Its a Known FACT that Sant Ji was ARRESTED earlier...and RELEASED when no evidence was found. Now why he was "arrsted" and then "released"...when thousands of others similarly arrested are "NEVER" allowd to see the light of day..evidence or no evidence...i dont know....BUT one thing is certain..He was released and NOT CHARGED for ANY CRIME.

2. It is also a known Fact that Sant Ji was in Akal Takhat. WHY then were 52 other GURDWARAS all over Punajb similarly surrounded and attacked and descrated by the Armed Forces going in fully uniformed/armed and booted ?

3. There is evidence that the Attack of June 1984 was REHE{censored}D with complete scale models of the Darbar sahib complex long before the actual D-DAY.

4. WHY was the D-DAY chosen to BE the ONE DAY that has MAXIMUM PILGRIMS in Darbar SAHIB? and why no  PRIOR warning/lockout of the Complex  enforced to KEEP OUT innocent CIVILIANS ?

5. No one is defending the Sant or his companions...BUT it is a HALLOWED SIKH CUSTOM to DEFEND their GURDWARAS with their LIVES..has always been  and will always BE. in 1920 when Lachhman Singh ji had already done Final Ardass to go to nankana Sahib..He went in knowing full well that he may DIE....and he did in spite of many attempts to dissuade him from going into the highly fortified Nankanan sahib gurdwara..He was burnt alive by the Mahant. The Sant ji ahd also made this Final Ardass and he stayed TRUE to his ardass - a SIKH Martyr CUSTOM descended from along line fo Sikh martyrs. This Hallowed SIKH CUSTO and the Martyrs who followed it are DAILY REMEMBERED in our ARDASS...as Jinnah ne GURDWARIAN DEE SEWA layee KURANIAH keetean, DHARAM NAHIN HARIAH......Here "SEWA" is certainly not mopping the gurdwara floors or making chapatees in the Guru ka LnaggarBUT SACRIFICING ones LIFE for the GURDWARA. The SANT ji did that..courtesy of the Indian Armed Assault. it could havebeen avoided...but the Powers to be decided otherwise. BAD DECISION.

6. later on several similar instances have ocured in the world...seige to a mosque in kashmir..the seige in Fort ( something i cant remeber..) Texas..in each the Army/FBI etc laid seige, cut off water, supply lines etc and was settled peacefully with almost no loss of life. The aim of the attack on darbar sahib June 84 was POLITICAL MILEAGE..and it had to be in spite of whatever the consequences..

7. Again you spit venom in my direction by saying..YOUR dal Khalsa..YOUr this and YOUR that. Not justified in the least as I have never acused you of anything. I am NOT INDIAN..I am looking from the OUTSIDE...over the WALL..and thus in a better position to see more....and what I see is not what vested interests want me to see. Separatists...DONT JUST rise up like the SUN one fine morning...there is a LONG NIGHT OF NIGHTMARES PRECEEDING each such uprising...Punjab had one called the NAXALITE UPRISING...about one DECADE Earlier..this was CPI and CPI Marxist sponsored..and was for the sole reason to Make INDIA GO COMMUNIST...and under the Chinese/.Russians THUMB !! It was crushed..and the common Punjabis didnt support it because it was "GODLESS"...in the Land of the GURUS !! These same COMMUNISTS then took their REVENGE when the other punjabis uprose under Bhinderawallah...then these Communist turned PRO-GOVT and informers. But thats beside the point..MY POINT IS..DISCONTENT breeds UNREST. The WISE look for REASONS..and CURES..and PEACEFUL means..but when the discontent blows up like the Volcano..unlikely things happen..like they did.

8 Final say..you have no reason to call anyone "YOUR GUY..etc" and there is absolutley NO PROOF that those who bombed railways and killed innocents were indeed who the police say they are...the HUNDREDS of police CATS recently revelead is the PROOF of the real pudding. Please discuss the FACTS..not posters.

Thank you for being patient and respectful. No offense intended..nor implied.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 22, 2009)

Dera rajkhalsa Ji,
Here is what i am talking about...
a report by NON-SIKHS...so its fair reporting.


_[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Evidence was overwhelming that the Delhi Police connived in the Sikh massacre. [/FONT]_[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*TUSHA MITTAL*_ tracks how it was systematically compromised over 25 years_[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]THIS IS what the police did during the 1984 Sikh massacre: they watched. They let the rampaging mobs storm the Sikhs’ houses. And some even took part. They removed the Sikh police officers who would have acted against the killers. They disarmed ordinary Sikhs so they couldn’t protect themselves, and gave them no protection. They wired messages about Sikhs charging ahead with _kirpans, _but forgot to mention the mobs assaulting the Sik[/FONT]


 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is what the police did soon after the 1984 Sikh massacre: concealed the number of those killed despite dead bodies all around. Closed 300 of the 700 cases claiming the culprits were “untraceable”. Directed subordinates to not register cases. Merged hundreds of cases into a single FIR. Refused to register FIRs against police officers and government officials. Registered — shockingly — FIRs against Sikhs. Threatened eyewitnesses and forced them to sign affidavits favouring the police. Reduced major offences to minor ones, manipulated evidence, and destroyed paper trails. In some areas, the police said that the curfew that followed the mass killings only applied to the Sikhs.[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There’s worse. Pretending to be victims, many officers wrote false affidavits exonerating various Congress leaders who were seen inciting the killer mobs.[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Since the pogrom, many investigative commissions have come and gone, each scrutinising the role of the police. First, in 1984, the commission led by IPS officer Ved Marwah. Then, in 1987, the Committee led by former IAS officer Kusum Lata Mittal. In 1990, the Jain-Agarwal Committee led by retired judge JD Jain and retired IPS officer DK Agarwal. And, in 2000, the Nanavati Commission of retired Supreme Court judge GT Nanavati. Each received thousands of affidavits meticulously detailing how the police aided the Sikh massacre.[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Surinder Singh — a prime-witness against Congress leader Jagdish Tytler, who allegedly led a killer mob — approached the local Deputy Commissioner of Police (DCP) for help after the killings. “This,” Singh told TEHELKA, “is what the police officer said to me:_ Jo log mar gaye, hamne unki madad ki. Aap mar jaate, ham aapki bhi madad karte _(We helped those who died. Had you died, we would have helped you too).”[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A quarter century later, neither justice nor accountability has come. In all, the various commissions and committees indicted 147 police officers for their role in the Sikh killings. Not one officer has been prosecuted. Some 42 of these officers had retired or died by 2005. The Delhi Government has taken no action against the remaining officers.[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Several officers, whose dismissal was recommended for their role in the killings and in destroying evidence, were promoted. Several others were allowed to retire gracefully. The Union Home Ministry exonerated five officers. Meanwhile, systematic machinery has been in place to ensure that those accused of killing the Sikhs remain scot-free.[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]IT WAS on Shoorveer Singh Tyagi’s watch that 500 Sikhs were brutally killed in the east Delhi slum of Trilokpuri. He was the SHO of the local police station. This was the Capital’s heaviest toll in a single location. The Kusum Lata Mittal probe noted Tyagi’s “criminal misconduct” during the killings and described him as a “living shame for any police organisation”.[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“[Tyagi’s] attempts, to a great extent successful, in obtaining affidavits in his favour by browbeating the witnesses indicate that it is highly unlikely that any witness would have the courage of coming and giving evidence against him,” Mittal wrote in her report. Her shocking finding — Tyagi found an honourable discharge from the court only because the police failed to take the sanction from the Union Home Ministry to file a chargesheet against him, which was mandatory because he was a government employee. No action was ever taken against him. In 2005, he was promoted to the rank of Assistant Commissioner of Police (ACP).[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sewa Dass, DCP (East), was Tyagi’s immediate boss. This is what Mittal said of him: “The conduct of Sewa Dass is a slur on the name of any police force. He should not be trusted with or assigned any job of responsibility. Sewa Dass removed Sikh officers from duty who were inclined to take proper measures to deal with the rioters. The SHOs under his jurisdiction systematically disarmed the Sikhs [and] as a result they couldn’t protect themselves. At the same time no steps were taken to provide police protection to them.”[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]She added: “Sewa Dass made blatant efforts to conceal the number of killings. He directed his subordinates to register only a few cases in each area, which was illegal. The killings continued till November 5, which could have been prevented. Tyagi in Kalyanpuri/Trilokpuri and Dass in the whole district have been mainly responsible for the killings.” Sewa Dass was later promoted as Special Commissioner.[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The DCP of west Delhi, UK Katna, wrote nothing in his logbook from 11 am to 10.30 pm on November 1, and from 9 am to 5.30 pm on November 2. This is the period when Sikhs were being massacred in his area. The logbook of DCP of south Delhi, Chander Prakash, was actually later found with pages torn pertaining to the time of the Sikh massacre in his area. Delhi’s Police Commissioner at the time, Subash Tandon, never submitted his logbook to the Mittal Commission.[/FONT]
     [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Mittal committee said Trilokpuri SHO Tyagi is a ‘living shame’ and east Delhi DCP Sewa Dass a‘slur’ on the police. It held the two responsible for the killings. But both officers were promoted[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Amrik Singh Bullar, the then SHO of Patel Nagar Police Station, told the Nanavati Commission that senior police officers had ordered him to merge 115 complaints as one FIR. Even the Jain-Agarwal report acknowledged this: “Instead of registering a separate case on the complaint of each victim, the police registered a vague and generally worded omnibus FIR purportedly covering all the offences that took place in a given locality. Since the FIR itself contained no specific information, much less the names of the accused persons, whatever chargesheets were filed under it ended mostly in acquittals.”[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The numbers tell the story. The official death toll in Delhi is 2,733. For that many deaths, the police filed only 228 FIRs, the Delhi Administration told a Commission headed by former Supreme Court Chief Justice Ranganath Misra.[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Several eyewitnesses say they have testified against Ram Pal Saroj, the Congress Pradhan of Trilokpuri, who was a subordinate of the late MP HKL Bhagat, another Congress leader widely accused of leading the mobs that killed the Sikhs.[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In his ruling on the case against Saroj, then Additional Sessions Judge SN Dhingra wrote: “Police had not made any other person as witness in this case. In fact, there is no investigation done by the police except recording the statements [which] are also very sketchy. Sometimes the statements are actually not made by the victims but they have been recorded by the police officials sitting in a police station and it is alleged that these statements were made by victims. In most of the cases in order to help the accused persons police has given wrong facts in the statements. The victims when appeared in court had given altogether a different story.”[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]IN THE rare instance a police officer tried to bring justice, he was stopped. In his affidavit to the Nanavati Commission, Marwah — the first police officer to inquire the police lapses — disclosed that he was asked to discontinue his probe before he could examine senior police officers. His handwritten notes were destroyed on instructions from higher authorities. Justice Nanavati ignored all such observations. On Sewa Dass, he wrote: “As the departmental inquiry held against him... exonerated [him] the commission does not recommend any action against him.”[/FONT]
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The commissions and the committees may have forgotten the role of the police. But the eyewitnesses remember everything in graphic detail. “A policeman shot my husband in the head right before my eyes,” says Ladhi Kaur, 41, who then lived in Trilokpuri. “The SHO [Tyagi] was standing there too.” Kaur, who now lives in a one-room quarter in a resettlement colony in west Delhi, lost 18 members of her family. “My biggest sorrow is that our own people, not outsiders, killed us… our own politicians, our own policemen.”[/FONT]

:whisling::whisling::whisling::whisling::whisling: TRUTH Cannot be HIDDEN...its never  too old..never torn apart..always SHINING.:whisling::whisling::whisling::whisling::whisling:


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## spnadmin (Apr 22, 2009)

*Re: Reported Post by rajkhalsa*

Gyani ji

 The venom against Sikhs is based on anger that most Sikhs don't buy the aryan agenda -- because every time they "cooperate" they find they are then double-crossed big time. You seem to be saying -- maybe without realizing -- that Guru Tej Bahadur, Guru Gobind Singh, and his followers, came to the defense of "hindus" and died and were martyred supporting their right to freedom. *The favor was never returned. *The brahmins keep wanting and asking and begging and get ....ed when they don't get what they want, and believe they are "entitled" to.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 22, 2009)

*Re: Reported Post by rajkhalsa*

aad Ji,
you are correct in your assessment. 

1. Perhaps you may not be knowing that *ALL*  ( 17 ) the Battles that Guru Gobind Singh Ji fought were started by HINDU RAJAHS on one pretext or other..and they were the ones that dragged in the Delhi mughals when they lost/couldnt win alone. The Hindu rajahs and their Forces were equal partners with Mughal armies at Anandpur and Chamkaur. 
2. It was the HINDU Diwan of the Suba Sirhind SUCHA NAND that argued most ardently for the MURDER of the two sahibzadahs of GGS at sirhind..while the Muslim Governor of Malerkotla - walked OUT of the assembly in disgust at killing children agaisnt the Quaran/Hadith/Shariah laws. The SIKHS paid abck thsi favour by ensurign the State of Malerkotla diodnt suffer even one death of any Muslim during the 1947 carnage. Malerkotla is surrounded on all sides by SIKH lands..and 100% of Muslims there woudl ordniaraly have been salughtered in 1947 in revenge attacks. 
3. Guur Arjun Ji was martyred at the behest of CHANDU and his Hindu supporters more than Muslims..Mian Mir was opposed to Guru Jis death. 
4. It was Gangu, cook of GGS who betrayed the Sahibzadahs and their grandmoither Mata gujree to Gov of Sirhind.
5. It was the HINDU Rajahs that blocked the escape routes of Banda Singh and later on 17th century Sikhs each time they tried to escape to the mountains from mughal attacks.
6. Muslim Pirs and religious Muslims always supported the rightful battle sof GGS- and Guru hargobind Ji. Most famous is Pir of Sadhaura who sacrificed 4 sons and 700 followers at the Battle of Bhanganni started by the Hindu Raja Bilaspur. Other Muslims khan brothers helped GGS at risk to their families and lives.
7. Muslim Pirs also came to congratulate and visit the birth of GGS - Pir Bheekhan Shah.
8. ONLY ONE HINDU..Kaurra mall ( who the sikhs called Mittah Mall..Kaurra means bitter..mittah means sweet ) Diwan at the Punajb Gov court actively helped SIKHS at risk to hiS life and reputation  a s  a GOVT SERVANT.

9. Guru teg bahdur Ji certianly went to delhi to offer his head at the request of the Kashmiri hindus - their Assembly had been told by Aurengzeb to convert and they had replied..IF our GURU converts..then we will all convert. Then they approached Guur teg bahdur Ji and Guur ji went to delhi on their Behalf. but its a foregone conclusion..Guur Ji would have gone anyway even IF the Muslims were under attack by Hindus..as Guur jis amin thrust was Human Rights/religious Freedom to be argued before the Emperor...unfortunately he refused and Guur ji was martyred. I am sure Guru ji or the Sikhs didnt do thsi as a favour to be collected back later. GURU ji is KNOWN as HIND dee chadar and NOT HINDU dee chadar...Protector of HIND..the nation..imho there is a difference.
ALL the SIKH GURUS..were "ATTACKED" by the HINDUS...at various stages...either through the osns claims to the Gurgadee..or direct wars as in case of GGS and Banda Singh and Sikh Misls in 17th century. About 10,000 sikhs  from the Chhota Ghallughara did manage to reach the mountain foothills of the Hidnu rajahs..they were repulsed and refused help and had to come back down and fight the mughals or escape towards the deserts of malwa.
Gurus were Fighting PERSECUTION, religious BIGOTARY, Brahmins caste system etc etc and not any particular religion...since the Hindu CLERGY felt the greatetst danger from GURMATT..they had the greatest enmity for Gurus and Sikhs. TODAY sikhism is under atatck from thsi SAME HINDU CLERGY as it is still a threat to their HEGEMONY.

10 THIS is the MAIN REASON Bhai kala afghana faced excommunication from the RSS infiltrated CLERGY. His BOOKS expose the BRAHMIN "WAR ON SIKHISM" through the centuries snce 1469..so clearly and with PROOF unassailable that he had to be SILENCED QUICKLY. The RSS used the Takhats to do this execution. ( Unfortunately his books are in Punjabi..otherwise it wouldnt take you more than 3 hours to arrive at the same conclusion - None ever took him at his challenge to answer him by quoting just ONE shabd from SGGS..and he himself quotes FIVE shabds for each !!- their only answer was offer an apology or be excommunicated.) He has thoroughly EXPOSEd the Brahmin plot to topple sikhism from inside by introducing rituals and such to undermine sikhism.He expounds Gurbani as no one has ever done yet.



Keep in Chardeekalla jios


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 22, 2009)

Gyani ji ..in all this ..my question is simple ..if that man was a real Sant ..he would have stepped out ..even before a bullet  reached in the diretion of Sri Akal Takhat...how can a person who loves his Gurus and preaches Sikhi do such things ? why did he barricade the HARIMANDAR SAHIB...there were bunkers with vast amount of guns, explosives ...If u claim he was a Sant what was he doing with all that stuff around ..? do u think a man who spoke ill and hatred about the country and its majority should be kept alive ?

Just try one thing ..forget the arming ..just give hatred speeches against the country you reside ..i have read in yor posts unhappiness about the malaysian govt if u want to prove yor points true ...just speak against the community ...i can guarantee you the next morning yor family will find you in pieces ..foget trial in court....

That Sant of yours couldnt speak against his masters in Pakistan ...he wanted each sikh to kill 32 hindus ...what happeend ??? 3200 sikhs got killed ...

open yor eyes to history ..stop worshipping such false gods ...

Your views somewhere show you can justify taliban and al qaeda too....

due to that sant my brother Parminder had ' sardar desh ka gaddar' on his walls ...we were looked upon as terrorists....

see we can blame indira for giving that man a push...for giving him a free hand ...we can blame the police for extremities and many hindu and sikh officers going for false encounters ...but killing innocent people ...bombing trains and buses...is that what we Sikhs are for ??


WE ARE WORSHIPPERS OF THE AKAAL PURAKH THE ALMIGHTY AND NOT BHINDRANWALA


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 22, 2009)

I still listen to his speeches ...i still feel that had he opened his eyes ..he was a jewel of a man...he would have done parchaar so well...if u ask me ..yes i feel i miss that man's presence...i dunno how he would have reacted to the growing terrorism around ...


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## Randip Singh (Apr 22, 2009)

rajkhalsa said:


> Gyani ji ..in all this ..my question is simple ..if that man was a real Sant ..he would have stepped out ..even before a bullet  reached in the diretion of Sri Akal Takhat...how can a person who loves his Gurus and preaches Sikhi do such things ? why did he barricade the HARIMANDAR SAHIB...there were bunkers with vast amount of guns, explosives ...If u claim he was a Sant what was he doing with all that stuff around ..? do u think a man who spoke ill and hatred about the country and its majority should be kept alive ?
> 
> Just try one thing ..forget the arming ..just give hatred speeches against the country you reside ..i have read in yor posts unhappiness about the malaysian govt if u want to prove yor points true ...just speak against the community ...i can guarantee you the next morning yor family will find you in pieces ..foget trial in court....
> 
> ...




What you have to understand is that Bhindrawala had learned from previous Congress manipulations that if he stepped out of the Golden Temple complex, he would just be another dead Sikh. He needed to show to the world how corrupt indira Gandhi and her Congress lackeys were.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 22, 2009)

rajkhalsa said:


> I still listen to his speeches ...i still feel that had he opened his eyes ..he was a jewel of a man...he would have done parchaar so well...if u ask me ..yes i feel i miss that man's presence...i dunno how he would have reacted to the growing terrorism around ...


 
A person that has listened to his speeches knows. That Sant ji was not with the congress.  Infact he says it with Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji present.  If you haven't noticed Sant ji was a man of his word.  Also Sant ji or his men never killed innoccent people.

PLEASE DISCUSS THE TOPIC AND NOT THE PERSON


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 22, 2009)

please stop personal comments


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 22, 2009)

randip singh ji if that 'sant' had learned it ..he would have fled to any other place...even after seeing the army there ..he dint realise ...according to gyani ji and singh ..he was a man of realisation ...he should have realised ..due to him innocent pilgrims died. The army dint have a religion ..he did ..so whats the moral of the story ?

He had foolish calculations that if he hides there ..no one will touch him...indira was similiar to him i can see they were 2 sides of the same coin ...his calculations failed ...


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 22, 2009)

rajkhalsa said:


> well i m no Sant that people would beilve in me ...there is a saying in hindi 'jaisi drishti waise srishti' ...


 
Sant Jarnail ji's, if you listen to his speeches the sangat call him a Sant. He never claimed to be a Sant. It's the Gursikhs that were with him that saw the light in him. Sant ji was devouted and honest man 

stop making baseless accusations


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 22, 2009)

the prob with u is ..u want me to all goodie goodie things abt him...i dont care whether he built 1 or 2 temples ..it doesnt matter to me ..look bro...just cool down..and go through everything in an un biased way...u know something ..i am able to say this ..when i see those things in a neutral way...forget hindu forget sikh forget india , forget indira ......just think as a human being ...

by the way singh veerji ..i remind you again this thread os not abt pro and anti bhindranwala ...this is about what taliban did with our brothers there ..so keep yor points ..no doubt ..but atleast discuss what we r here for ...


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 22, 2009)

please stop personal remarks


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 22, 2009)

look veera i did that again ..i reminded you before ...pls refer to the posts...u were so blinded by the fog of yor anger ..u dint realise ...i got into it after our gyani ji posted ...because ...since u guys cannot cool down and glorify wrong doings ...then i also will not cool down and add insults to the panth due to u guys attitude...no country ...no Govt will ever justify terrorism...you can go on wearing those sant's shadow with ak 47 totting henchmen t - shirts ...but be ready for the hatred people will heap on u ... i will voice out since i dont want my Panth's image tarnished and branded as terrorists..


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 22, 2009)

discuss the topic not each other


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 22, 2009)

discuss the topic not each other


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 22, 2009)

Sangat ji, 

Gillaus ji, posted this article about the thread.

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab


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## Randip Singh (Apr 23, 2009)

please stop discussing people. stay on the topic


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## spnadmin (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: Reported Post by rajkhalsa*

A great thread, full of political history and current controversy, takes a turn for the worse. Why does this happen. Because individual members cannot stop themselves from engaging in a personal ping-pong match of words. The forum rule Debate the Issues not the Person was ignored several times by two members. 

Finally a post had to be moved to Leaders because the allegation was completely disrespectful of the purpose of SPN which is to create a space where diversity of ideas is not only permitted but encouraged without fear of name calling and hostile attribution.

*I have endless patience and emotional stamina,  and will move posts out, issue infractions and warnings, and move to the next level of discipline if required. *


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## GillAUS (May 6, 2009)

Some more recent news concerning the plight of our Sikh bretheren in Pakistan:

DAWN.COM | Provinces | Govt announces relief package for displaced Sikhs


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## spnadmin (May 6, 2009)

You have read today the news. The Pakistan army and the Taliban are now in a pitched battle forcing people from their homes in the SWAT area. Taliban have seized homes and businesses, and the government forces are pummeling the area with bombardments. So what good did it do to play the diplomat all these months with treacherous forces? Always always this mistake is made. Remember the story of the frog and the scorpion. That says it all.


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## GillAUS (May 6, 2009)

Pakistan has been on the brink of collapse for some time now, however I think the situation has only just reached the make or break point with the recent events unfolding in SWAT/FATA/NWFP, and with the Taliban advancing as close as 60km from Islamabad. Not only are Sikhs and Hindus fleeing these regions, but so are many Muslims.

It's basically now or never to destroy the Taliban threat. However God only knows if the Pak military are sincere in their convictions to do so. Not only does this concern all those in Pakistan, but rather everyone in the region as well the world - An {censored}nal of 75 to 100 nuclear weapons in Taliban hands is potentially catastrophic.

Let us pray that this situation gets resolved - a Taliban-run Pakistan could pose disaster for all our historical Gurdwaras and shrines. One need only see what the Taliban did to the Buddha's of Bamiyan. Moreover they do not even spare their own Sufi mosques.


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