# Superstitions



## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 6, 2009)

*SUPERSTITIONS*​ 

*ABSTRACT*​ 

Superstition is an irrational belief, practice, or rite maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic or chance.worship of a diety. Guru Nanak refers to excessive exactness, rigor in religious opinions or practice, extreme and unnecessary scruples in the observance of religious rites in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance or occurrence. He also alludes to our obsession with points of minor importance, practices proceeding from excess of sculptures in religion, living in doubt, and duality with out paying attention to the teachings in Raag Asa:

ਰੋਗੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਮਨਿ ਦੂਜਾ ॥ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਰਮਿ ਜਪਹਿ ਜਪੁ ਦੂਜਾ ॥ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਗੁਰ ਦਰਸ ਨ ਦੇਖਹਿ ॥ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੈ ਜਨਮੁ ਕਿ ਲੇਖਹਿ ॥

_Rog bẖaram bẖėḏ man ḏūjā, Gur bin bẖaram jāpeh jap ḏūjā, Āaḏ Purakẖ Gur Daras Na Dėkẖeh, ViN Gur Sabḏai Janam Ke Lėkẖeh._

Those bearing maladies of doubt, superstition and duality in mind, bereft of Master’s guidance, fallen in duality other than remembering Naam, dwells in doubt. The Divine teacher reveals the Blessed Vision of the Primal Akal Purkh. Without the Word of the Guru's Sabd, human life is of no use? -----Guru Nanak Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 416-7

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Sikh Gurus from 1469-1708 actively tried to personally teach the Sikhs to let go of the rituals and superstitions. Now the present Sabd Guru (AGGS) has assumed that role of teachers passively, to those who attempt to find the Truth in the study of this scripture. But how many Sikhs try to learn the teachings and reflect on them in daily life? How many of those who recite it, understand the meaning of its hymns? Due to ignorance of the spirituality and reading the scripture without understanding and reflection in life, the rituals and many different superstitions have taken over and are still in vogue. Guru Angad in Raag Sarang refers to the stories being told around in Vedas leads to sduperstition:

ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀ ਬੇਦੀ ਆਣੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਲੈਣਾ ਲੈ ਲੈ ਦੇਣਾ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਉਤਮ ਮਧਿਮ ਜਾਤੀਂ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਭਵੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ 

_Kathā kahāṇī beḏīŉ āṇī pāp punn bīcẖār. Ḏe ḏe laiṇā lai lai ḏeṇā narak surag avṯār. Uṯam maḏẖim jāṯīŉ jinsī bẖaram bẖavai sansār._ 

The Vedas bring forth stories and legends, and thoughts of vice and virtue. What is given, they receive, and what is received, they give. They are reincarnated in heaven and hell. High and low, social class and status - the world wanders lost in superstition.-----Guru Angad, Raag Sarang, AGGS. Page, 1243-15

Bhai Gurdas referes to the stories in vogue in the villages among rabble in his Vaar 5;

ਨਾਰ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਅਗਨਿ ਛਿਕ ਪਦ ਹਿਡਕੀ ਵਰਤਾਰਾ------ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਖ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਰ ਉਤਾਰਾ ॥

_Naar Purakh PaaNee Agan Chik Pad HiDkee Vartaaraa-Gurmukh Sukh Fal Paar Outaraa._

 It is superstitious to imply good or bad omens in meeting a widow, a bare headed man, water, fire, sneezing, breaking wind, hiccups, lunar and week days. It is not rational to regard some moments, or some direction in travel as lucky or unlucky. The life led in the light of certain omens, or under the influence of the nine planets, the twelve signs of zodiac, or magical incantations, divinations from the voices is all futile. Cries of donkeys, dogs, cats, kites, black birds and jackals cannot control our lives. The Guru willed reject all such superstitions and enjoy happiness with the Akal Purkh and safely make it across the world-ocean.-----Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 5, Pauri, 8

Years ago it was very easy to get a copy of the AGGS from the book shops in Delhi or Amritsar. Now the distribution of AGGS is controlled, it can only be purchased through SGPC or Gurudwaras. Superstition exists that ordinary handling of AGGS would be a disrespect to the Guru. AGGS describes a path to reach Akal Purkh but not God itself. “What is it that is being disrespected?” The Akal Purkh Itself is Infinite (ਅਪਾਰ) and omnipresent (ਨਿਰੰਤਰ), within, without and continuous. God is Ink, Pen, Tablet, Writer, Scale, Weight, Weigher, Trader, and the article being weighed as enunciated in the following hymns:

ਆਪੇ ਪਟੀ ਕਲਮ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਰਿ ਲੇਖੁ ਭਿ ਤੂੰ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਕਹੀਐ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਦੂਜਾ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੂ ॥

_Āpė patī kalam āp upar lėkẖ bẖe ṯūŉ, Ėko kahī¬ai nānkā ḏūjā kāhė kū._

You Yourself are the writing tablet, and You Yourself is the pen. You are also what is written on it. Speak of the One Akal Purkh, O Nanak, how could there be any other? -----Guru Nanak, Raag Malar, AGGS, Page, 1291-14 

ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਆਪੁ ਸਾਜਿਓਨੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਖਲੋਆ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਪਟੀ ਕਲਮ ਆਪਿ ਆਪਿ ਲਿਖਣਹਾਰਾ ਹੋਆ ॥

_Āpīnĥai āp sāji¬on āpė hī thamiĥ kẖalo¬ā, Āpė patī kalam āp āp likẖaṇhārā ho¬ā._

Akal Purkh created It self, and is the supporting pillar. It self is the paper, the pen, and the writer. -----Sata Balwand, AGGS, Page, 968-14

ਆਪੇ ਕੰਡਾ ਤੋਲੁ ਤਰਾਜੀ ਆਪੇ ਤੋਲਣਹਾਰਾ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਖੈ ਆਪੇ ਬੂਝੈ ਆਪੇ ਹੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਾ ॥

_Āpė kandā ṯol ṯarājī āpė ṯolaṇhārā, Āpė ḏėkẖai āpė būjẖai āpė hai vaṇjārā._

You Your self are the balance, the weights and the scale; You Yourself is the Weigher. You Your self see and You Yourself understand, You Yourself are the trader. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 731-3

ਆਪੇ ਕੰਡਾ ਆਪਿ ਤਰਾਜੀ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਆਪੇ ਤੋਲਿ ਤੋਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਹੁ ਆਪੇ ਵਣਜਾਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵਣਜੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥

_Āpė kandā āp ṯarājī parabẖ āpė ṯol ṯolā¬i¬ā, Āpė sāhu āpė vaṇjārā āpė vaṇaj karā¬i¬ā._

God It self is the balance scale, the Weigher, and It self weighs with the weights. Akal Purkh It self is the banker, the trader, and It self makes the trades. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 605-15

Guru Gobind Singh in his message in the Bachitar Natak advised the Sikhs that Sikh Gurus are not God; Gurus are just human beings and servants of God, to deliver Its message to the humanity. It is God who has to be worshiped and Gurus are teachers who should be respected by following their teachings. But still duality and idolatry continues.

ਜੇ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸ਼ਰ ਉਚਰ ਹੈ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿ ਹੈ ॥ ੩੧ ॥

_Jo Ham Ko Parmeshar Ouchar Hai, Te Sabh Narak Kundh Meh Par Hai._ 

Whosoever calls me God, he will fall in to the ditch of hell. -----DG, Page, 57 

Q. Can God be disrespected by any one?

A. God is only disrespected by not following the teachings incorporated in Sabd Guru by spiritually ignorant (ਮੂਰਖ), and by over-use of the lower instincts while no effort is made to develop the higher instincts and those are the ones who have to answer God for their blasphemic actions;

ਨਿੰਦਕਾਂ ਪਾਸਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗਸੀ ਬਹੁ ਦੇਇ ਸਜਾਈ ॥

_Ninḏkāŉ pāshu har lėkẖā mangsī baho ḏė¬ė sajā¬ī._

The Lord summons the slanderers to answer for their accounts, and punishes them severely. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 316-6

Q. Can god be made big or small?

A. Guru Nanak in Raag Asa and Kabir in Raag Gauri answer;

ਜੇ ਸਭਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਕੈ ਆਖਣ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਵਡਾ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਘਾਟਿ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ 

_Je sabẖ mil kai ākẖaṇ pāhi. vadā na hovai gẖāt na jā▫e._

Even if they all meet together and recount the Naam, You would not be made any greater or lesser. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 9,-18 & 349-9

ਨਾ ਓਹੁ ਬਢੈ ਨ ਘਟਤਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਅਕੁਲ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਏਕੈ ਭਾਇ ॥

_Nā oh badẖai na gẖatṯā jā¬ė, Akul niranjan ėkai bẖā¬ė._ 

God does not increase or decrease, is unknowable and immaculate; It does not change. -----Kabir, Raag Gauri Thiti, AGGS, Page, 343-10

Q. Can the AGGS be polluted or disrespected by taking it in the Hotels for the performance of weddings? 

A. No. Guru would sanctify such places rather than getting polluted, as per answers by Guru Ramdas in Raag Asa;

ਜਿਥੈ ਜਾਇ ਬਹੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸੋ ਥਾਨੁ ਸੁਹਾਵਾ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ ॥ਗੁਰਸਿਖਂ*ੀ ਸੋ ਥਾਨੁ ਭਾਲਿਆ ਲੈ ਧੂਰਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਵਾ ॥

_Jithai jā¬ė bahai mėrā saṯgurū so thān suhāvā rām rājė, Gusikẖīŉ so thān bẖāli¬ā lai ḏẖūr mukẖ lāvā._

Wherever my True Guru goes and sits, that place is beautiful, O God and the King. The Guru's Sikhs seek out that place; they take the dust and apply it to their faces.
-----Guru Ramdas, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 450-17

In fact, a Sikh who calls himself a devout follower and does not follow the teachings of the Word in thought, spirit and right action does disrespect the Sabd Guru.

Q. Is it a disrespectful for AGGS being on the web?

A. No. God is omnipresent (ਸਰਬ –ਵਿਆਪਕ/ਨਿਰੰਤਰ) as referred above. Many Sikhs and myself carry a copy of AGGS in their laptops. It is the same screen where so many other nasty things are being watched and AGGS hymns are displayed; 

Q. Should the monitor of PC and the skies be washed with soap or milk by ignorant Sikhs? 

A. Akal Purkh is present in every part of the creation including the waves of TV, Telephone and Web etc;

ਸੂਖਮ ਅਸਥੂਲ ਸਗਲ ਭਗਵਾਨ ॥

_Sūkẖam asthūl sagal bẖagvān._

God exists in all subtle and gross matter (ਨਿਰਗੁਣ & ਸਰਗੁਣ).-----Guru Arjan, Thiti Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 299-17

To state that God is present at some places and not at other places is untrue.

ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥

_Logha Bharam Na Bhooloh Bhai, Khalik Khalk Khalk Meh Khalik Poor Rewhip Sarb Thanyee._

O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt. The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places.-----Kabir, Raag Parbhati Bhibhas, AGGS, Page, 1350-1

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਖਾਲਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਲਕ ਵਸੈ ਰਬ ਮਾਹਿ ॥

_Farīḏā kẖālak kẖalak meh kẖalak vasai rab māhi._

Farid, the Creator is in the Creation, and the Creation abides in God.-----Sloke Sheikh Farid, Mahla 5, AGGS, Page, 1381-17

The only way to get rid of duality and superstition is by seeking to be blessed by spiritual wisdom, following the teachings honestly and truthfully as delineated in Sabd Guru. Otherwise doubt and superstition will prevail by neglecting this advice as pointed by Guru Arjan in Raag Gauri;

ਹਰਿ ਬਿਸਰਤ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਬਿਆਪੈ ॥ਸਿਮਰਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਭਾਗੈ ॥

_Har Bisrat Sahsa Dukh Biapai, Simrit Naam Bharam Bhaou Bhagai._

Forgetting God, superstition and sorrow shall overtake you. Meditating on the Naam, doubt and fear shall depart. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 190-5

People who live in anxiety or uncertainty, there is an inclination to be superstitious. They lack strength and a sense of security. Insecurity leads to fear which in turn leads to superstition.

Q. Is AGGS being treated as an idol?

A. Yes. The holy book is routinely covered with comforters and placed in cribs to protect it from cold at night. It is being fed the langar and parshad. Water is kept under it as under any idol. God is not a fool to be swindled around by these kinds of favors. Internal cleanliness is mandatory for spiritual progress:

ਔਤਰ ਮੈਲੁ ਜੇ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਵੈ ਤਿਸ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥ ਲੋਕ ਪਤੀਣੇ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਅਯਾਨਾ ॥ ਪੂਜਹੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਏਕੁ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾ ॥ ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਵਣੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ 
_Antar Mail Jay Tirath Navai Tis Baikunth Na Jana, Loak Pataanay Kachoo Na Hovai Naahee Ram AeaaNaa, Poojoh Raam Ayk Hee Deva, Saacha NavaN Gur Ki Sayva._

With filth within the heart, even if one bathes at sacred places of pilgrimage, shall not go to heaven. Nothing is gained by trying to please other people as the God cannot be fooled. Worship the One Divine Creator. The true cleansing bath is service to the Guru. -----Kabir Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 484-14 & 15

Q. Does Akhand Paths lead to the fulfillment of desires?

A. In these days the Gurudwaras, priests are fishing for money. They use these tactics of superstition for bait and continue on the “Laries” of Akhand Paths and keep on brain- washing people thus creating fears in their mind. The mind cannot be pacified or relieved of fear by performing ritualistic Paths. Gurbani should be recited, understood, deliberated and reflected upon in daily life, personally receiving the spiritual benefits as pointed by Guru Angad in Raag Sarang;

ਔਮਿ੍ਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਤਤੁ ਵਖਾਣੀ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਖੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਤੀ ਸੁਰਤਂੀ ਕਰਮਿ 
ਧਿਆਈ ॥

_Amrit Bani Tat Vakhani Giaan Dhiaan Vich Aa-ee, Gurmukh Aakhi Gurmikh Jaati Surteen Karam Dhia-ee._

The Ambrosial Word of Gurbani proclaims the essence of reality. Spiritual wisdom and meditation are contained within it. The Guru willed chant it, meditate, intuitively aware of, and realize It. -----Guru Angad, Raag Sarang, AGGS, Page, 1243-17

Superstition is an irrational belief arising from ignorance or fear. 

ਅਸੰਖ ਮੂਰਖ ਅੰਧ ਘੋਰ ॥

_Asankh Moorkh Andh Ghor._

Countless fools are blinded by ignorance. -----Japji, AGGS, Page, 4-3

Despite the admonition in some faiths that ignorance is bliss, Sikhism is particularly adamant that ignorance does more harm than good.
If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?

ਗਿਆਨ ਹੀਣੰ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਪੂਜਾ॥ ਔਧ ਵਰਤਾਵਾ ਭਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥

_Giaan HeeNan Agiaan Poojaa, Andh Vartaavaa Bhaou Doojaa._

Without spiritual wisdom, people worship ignorance. They grope in the dark, in the love of duality. -----Guru Nanak, Sloke Vaaran To Vadheek, AGGS, Page, 1412-4

ਅਗਿਆਨੀ ਮਾਨੁਖੁ ਭਇਆ ਜੋ ਨਾਹੀ ਸੋ ਲੋਰੈ ॥ ਰੈਣਿ ਅੰਧਾਰੀ ਕਾਰੀਆ ਕਵਨ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਭੋਰੈ ॥ਭ੍ਰਮਤੋ ਭ੍ਰਮਤੋ ਹਾਰਿਆ ਅਨਿਕ ਬਿਧੀ ਕਰਿ ਟੋਰੈ ॥ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਭਈ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਨਿਧਿ ਮੋਰੈ ॥ 

_Agiani Manukh Bhaiaa Jo Nahin So Lorai, Rain AnDhaaree Kaaree-aa Kavan Jugat Jit Bhorai, Bharmato Bharmato Haari-aa Anik BiDhee Kar Torai, Kaho Nanak Kirpaa Bha-ee SaaDhsangat NiDh Morai._

Humanity is in spiritual ignorance. People see things that do not exist. The night is dark and gloomy, how will the morning dawn? Wandering, wandering all around, I have grown weary, trying all sorts of things. I have been searching in vain. Says Nanak, Akal Purkh has shown mercy to me, I have found the treasure of the Sadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.-----Guru Arjan, AGGS, Page, 212-11

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਗਵਾਈ ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਹਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਮੇਲਿ ਲੈਹਿ ਸੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਈ ॥

_Antar Agiaan Dukh Bharam Hai Gur Gian Gavaeya, Jis Kirpaa Karahi Tis Mayl Laihi So Naam Dhi-aa-ee._

Deep within, there is ignorance, suffering and doubt. Through the spiritual wisdom of the Guru, they are eradicated. He alone meditates on the Naam, whom You unite with Yourself, in Your Mercy. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Malar, AGGS, Page, 1291-17

ਬਸਇ ਕਰੋਧੁ ਸਰੀਰਿ ਚੰਡਾਰਾ ॥ ਅਗਿਆਨਿ ਨ ਸੂਝੈ ਮਹਾ ਗੁਬਾਰਾ ॥

_Bas-i KaroDh Sareer Chandaaraa, Agiaan Na Soojhai Maha Gubara._

Anger is the outcaste which hides within his body, he is in the utter darkness of ignorance, and he does not understand. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 759-14

Superstition includes “any dogma, chance, practice, or rite unreasonably upheld by faith in magic, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one formally or authoritatively considered to be the absolute truth.”

Kabir lived until last years of his life in Benaras, where alone in the estimation of Hindus deliverance may be obtained. Those who died in Magahar town have no hope of ultimate beatitude. To beat the superstition and using common sense, Kabir moved to Magahar and died there.

ਜਉ ਤਨੁ ਕਾਸੀ ਤਜਹਿ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਰਮਈਐ ਕਹਾ ਨਿਹੋਰਾ॥ਕਹਤੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਰੇ ਲੋਈ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਕੋਈ ॥ਕਿਆ ਕਾਸੀ ਕਿਆ ਊਖਰੁ ਮਗਹਰੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਜਉ ਹੋਈ ॥

_Jao Tan Kaasi Tajeh Kabira Rameeai Kaha Nihora. Kahat Kabir Sunoh Ray Lo-ee Bharam Na Bhooloh Koyee, Kia Kaasi Kia Ookhar Maghar Ram Ridai Jaou Hoyee._

If Kabir were to leave his body at Benares, and so liberate himself, what obligation would he have to the God? Says Kabir, listen, O people, do not be deluded by doubt. What is the difference between Benares and the barren land of Maghar, if the God is within one's heart? -----Kabir, Raag Dhanasari, AGGS, Page, 692-6

ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਭੇਖ ਧਰਿ ਨਾਨਾ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਕਹੈ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਭਿਸਤ ਛੋਡਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਿਉ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥ 

_Mātī ek bẖekẖ ḏẖar nānā ṯā mėh barahm pacẖẖānā. Kahai Kabir Bhisat Chodh Kar Dozak Seo Man Manaa._

The clay is one, but it has taken many forms; I recognize the One God within them all. Says Kabir, I have abandoned paradise, and reconciled my mind to hell. -----Raag Asa, Kabir, AGGS, Page, 480-9

The fact that the evidence is incomplete and at times even contradictory and that intelligent people hold different beliefs about evolution and God should be evidence in itself that there is much to be learned by each of us.

Sikhism posits that all things act and are acted upon in accordance with their nature, that under like conditions the results will invariably be substantially the same. That’s what Dharma (Righteousness) is, following the eternal Laws of Mother Nature truthfully and honestly.

*Examples of superstition good and bad, prevalent in India:* 

Omens drawn from meeting a widow, a man with a bare head, from water, sneezing, fire breaking wind, hiccups, lunar and week days, unlucky moments, black cat crossing the path, number 13 or 7, flickering of the eyelid, meeting a lower caste individual or a Brahmin and conjunction of planets etc. are all superstitions. Guru Amardas ponders over these in Raag Bilawal;

ਛਨਿਛਰਵਾਰਿ ਸਉਣ ਸਾਸਤ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਭਰਮੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ 

_Cẖẖanicẖẖarvār sa&shy;uṇ sāsaṯ bīcẖār. Ha&shy;umai mėrā bẖarmai sansār._ 

Saturday: Consideration of the Shastra of Sauna (Saunaka a sage) dealing with omens (whether an action is good or bad, which time is suitable or unsuitable for that action), is merely whim and ego deluding the whole world. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 841-16

*Superstitions prevalent in the west:*

A girl counts the leaves of a flower, as she says: "One, he comes; two, he tarries; three, he courts; four, he marries; five, he goes away." Thousands of persons believe in lucky and unlucky days, numbers, signs and jewels. Scientifically, seeing the moon over the right or left shoulder, or not seeing it cannot possibly affect the moon; nor can it impact or change the influence of the moon on any earthly thing.

Thousands of persons believe in lucky and unlucky days, numbers, signs and jewels.
Many people regard Friday as an unlucky day -- as a bad day to commence a journey, to marry, to make any investment. The reason given is that Friday is an unlucky day. The village priests declared that Jan 12, 64 was not a proper day for this author to get married. Forty one years later, he is happy with 3 sons and 8 grandchildren. Another grand child is on the way!

There are thousands of lucky and unlucky things, warnings, omens and prophecies, but all sensible, sane and reasoning human beings know that every one is an absurd and idiotic superstition. Guru Ramdas in Raag Kanrha tells the stories of life in the following Sabd;

ਮਿਥਿਆ ਭਰਮਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਬਹੁ ਭ੍ਰਮਿਆ ਲੁਬਧੋ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕਲਤ੍ਰ ਮੋਹ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ॥

_Mithia Bharam Bharam Bauh Bharmia Lubdho Putar Kalutar Moh Preet._


In false doubt and superstition, people wander all around, lured by love and emotional attachment to their children and families. -----Guru Ramdas, Raag Kanrha, AGGS, Page, 1295-17

Miracles are not simply impossible, but they are unthinkable by any human capable of thinking. An intelligent person cannot believe that a miracle ever was or ever will be performed. Ignorance is the soil in which belief in miracles grows. Man should think and use all his senses to examine and reason out. The human who cannot think is less than human. A human who will not think is traitor to himself. One who is afraid of thinking is a slave to superstitions. 

ਭ੍ਰਮ ਕੀ ਕੂਈ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਰਸ ਪੰਕਜ ਅਤਿ ਤੀਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਣ ਮੋਹ ਕੀ ਫਾਸ ॥ ਕਾਟਨਹਾਰ ਜਗਤ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਤਾ ਕੇ ਕਰਹੁ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥ 

_Bharam Ki Kooyee Trisna Ras Pankaj Ati Teekhan Moh Ki Faas, Kaatanhaar Jagat Gur Gobid Charan Kamal Ta Ke Karoh Nivaas._

Superstition is the well, thirst for pleasure is the mud, and emotional attachment is the noose, so tight around your neck. The only one who can cut this is the Guru and Creator of the Universe, The Akal Purkh, so let yourself dwell at It’s Lotus Feet (Sabd Itself). -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 204-10

We know that millions are seeking the impossible, trying to secure the aid of the supernatural, to solve the problems of life, to solve the riddles of destiny, and to pluck from the future its secret. We know that all their efforts would be in vain.

Science is the real redeemer. It will put honesty above hypocrisy, mental veracity above all belief. It will teach the religion of usefulness. It will destroy bigotry in all its forms. It will put thoughtful doubt above thoughtless faith. We know that science has given us all we have of value. Science is the only civilizer. It has freed the slave, clothed the naked, and fed the hungry, lengthened life. It has provided us homes and hearths, pictures and books, aeroplanes, ships and railways, telegraphs and cables, engines that tirelessly turn the countless wheels. It has also partially destroyed superstition. We believe in the natural, in the unbroken and unbreakable succession of causes and effects.

*Conclusion:*

The monster of superstition has destroyed nations and races. The energies of man are wasted in a vain effort to secure the protection of the supernatural. In the presence of the mysteries of life and thought, of force and substance, of growth and decay, of birth and death, of joy and pain, of the sufferings of the good, the triumphs of wrong, the intelligent honest man is compelled to say: "I do not know", but still has the courage to refute the empty rituals of ignorance and superstition. 

The danger to the Sikh philosophy comes from degeneration of morals, from beclouding one's mental horizons and from the atrophy of moral and spiritual nature. Individuals put their vested interest first, and truths and ideals go begging. Moral life cannot be lived in aloofness. Morality is the nurse of spirituality.

ਪਾਖੰਡ ਭਰਮ ਉਪਾਵ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਕੇ ਰਿਦ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ਸਾਧੂ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੁਰਖਪਤਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਧੇਰੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥

_Pakẖand bẖaram upāv kar thākė riḏ anṯar mā¬i¬ā mā¬i¬ā, Sadhu Purkh Purkhpat Paa-eaa Agiaan Andhayr Gavaeyaa._

In the practice of hypocrisy and superstition, people have grown weary of the effort, but still, deep within their hearts, they yearn for Maya, Maya. By the Grace of the Holy Person, I have met with the Akal Purkh, the Primal Being, and the darkness of ignorance is dispelled. -----Guru Ramdas, Raag Basant Hindole, AGGS, Page, 1178-8

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI


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## spnadmin (Apr 6, 2009)

It starts with the inability to live with uncertainty. It worsens when life is objectively harsh and stubbornly out of the reach of one's own control. Superstition creates the illusion of control over the unknown and unpredictable. 

But.. most of the time we have the illusion that we are in control when we are not. That too is superstition but not commonly seen as such. Just my thoughts.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 6, 2009)

> Superstition is an irrational belief, practice, or rite maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic or chance.*worship of a diety.*


I like that your thinking outside of the Sikh norm.


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## prabhsmart (Apr 7, 2009)

ur parents r firm beleivers of superstition. my mother would make an issue if i bring oil and meetal stuff on saturday at home.
Some people will never leave superstition even if Guru Nank devji would personally tell them that it is wrong.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 7, 2009)

Superstition is the root cause why the DERAS/SANTS?BABAS have huge women followings.
These "people" play on their innermost fears..guilt ( for not giving birth to a male for example..or having an alcoholic husband !!..or some other "curse")....and offer "wonder cures"...snake oil and swaah dust ashes charms etc....
A GURDWARA on the other hand just contains a SGGS ?? where the Creator Being is invisible..out of reach...as they say.."WHAT is NEARER ?? MY FIST OR GOD ??" So to these women its.."WHOS NEARER.....THE MAHAPURASH BABA..or GOD ?? " In Both the answer is obvious...


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 7, 2009)

I think we can safely say that worshipping God is also superstition. Let me explain. After we worship him, something good happens and we are like oh, its cuz I worshipped. When we don't worship him and something bad happens, we say it happened because I didn' worhip him. But in fact, those Good and bad things were going to happen anyways. Also, after we worship we notice good things more because we are expecting them.
Should we stop worshippin God? Sure if you are going to think that you have any form of control over God. Sure, if you are going to believe that your worshipping CAUSED God to "bless you". Sure, if you think you are any more significant than an ant is to you.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 7, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Superstition is the root cause why the DERAS/SANTS?BABAS have huge women followings.
> These "people" play on their innermost fears..guilt ( for not giving birth to a male for example..or having an alcoholic husband !!..or some other "curse")....and offer "wonder cures"...snake oil and swaah dust ashes charms etc....
> A GURDWARA on the other hand just contains a SGGS ?? where the Creator Being is invisible..out of reach...as they say.."WHAT is NEARER ?? MY FIST OR GOD ??" So to these women its.."WHOS NEARER.....THE MAHAPURASH BABA..or GOD ?? " In Both the answer is obvious...


 Not just those but they play with emotions. Men tend to be more logical (can I say this as a fact? Probably because they tend to get out more), and women tend to be more emotional (probably because of their lifestlye as a housewife, perhaps). 
Emotions have their place but someone shouldn't be convincing you of something using emotions. Uneducated people lack the ability to separate arguments from emotions and therefoer and more likely to go for the bait laid out by these "sants". 
A solution would be to open schools and educate people on how important education is, etc. Now education (math, bio, physcis), I 've seen doesn't solve everything. We need to teach these people how to think critically.


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## spnadmin (Apr 7, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> I think we can safely say that worshipping God is also superstition. Let me explain. After we worship him, something good happens and we are like oh, its cuz I worshipped. When we don't worship him and something bad happens, we say it happened because I didn' worhip him. But in fact, those Good and bad things were going to happen anyways. Also, after we worship we notice good things more because we are expecting them.
> Should we stop worshippin God? Sure if you are going to think that you have any form of control over God. Sure, if you are going to believe that your worshipping CAUSED God to "bless you". Sure, if you think you are any more significant than an ant is to you.



Bhagat ji

It would be a good thing for you to define your terms when you challenge others and their orthodox and established beliefs. What do you mean by "worship?" Without knowing that a host of other misunderstandings can follow: is religion superstition? Is it escapism? Is it pure emotionality?


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 7, 2009)

Superstitions are made of two things.  Snake oil rub and Placebo and the cure is the same.

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 7, 2009)

*wor·ship * 

  (wûr
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





sh
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




p) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE] 

[SIZE=-1]*NOUN:* [/SIZE]



The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object. 
The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.

*seek * 

  (s
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




k) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE] 

[SIZE=-1]*VERB:* [/SIZE]
*[FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]sought[/SIZE][/FONT] *  (sôt) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE] , *[FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]seek·ing[/SIZE][/FONT] *, *[FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]seeks[/SIZE][/FONT] *
[SIZE=-1]*VERB:* [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]*tr.* [/SIZE]


To try to locate or discover; search for.
To endeavor to obtain or reach: _[SIZE=+0]seek goodness[/SIZE]_
To go to or toward: _[SIZE=+0]Seek the truth within[/SIZE]_
To inquire for; request: _[SIZE=+0]Seek directions to 3.[/SIZE] _
To try; endeavor: _[SIZE=+0]seek to do good.[/SIZE] _
So now the question arises:

Does a Sikh worship or seek Ik Ong Kaar?

Tejwant Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 7, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> It would be a good thing for you to define your terms when you challenge others and their orthodox and established beliefs. What do you mean by "worship?" Without knowing that a host of other misunderstanding can follow: is religion superstition? Is it escapism? Is it pure emotionality


I said if you are going to worship AND think in a certain way, then you might as well stop. Worship, hmm.. 
idolize: love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess; venerate as an idol; "Many teenagers idolized the Beatles" 
show devotion to (a deity); "Many Hindus worship Shiva" 
the activity of worshipping 
attend religious services; "They worship in the traditional manner" 
a feeling of profound love and admiration 
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 7, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> *wor·ship *
> 
> (wûr
> 
> ...


Seeking ek ongkar is pointless, GUur Nanak says he is right here with us. We have to realize him. We realize him when we see him in everyone. After that we make an effort to serve him, and he is best served through humanity.


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 7, 2009)

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru fateh.



BhagatSingh said:


> Seeking ek ongkar is pointless, GUur Nanak says he is right here with us. We have to realize him. We realize him when we see him in everyone. After that we make an effort to serve him, and he is best served through humanity.


 
Now we are talking about nothing  but symantics.

Thanks to the  search engine:

Seek is used 571 times in SGGS and Realize is used  431 times. 

Seek- Sri Granth: Search Results

Realize- Sri Granth: Search Results

One can draw one's own conclusions from that.

Tejwant Singh


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 7, 2009)

Dear Bhagat Singh Ji,

If the life is smooth than one is on the wrong path. It is the acceptance in the present good or bad as Its (God;s) Will i.e. important to have mental peace. Praying for selfish purposes or desires is superstitious..

Cordially,

Virinder


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 7, 2009)

Dear Teji Ji,
Thanks for clarifications.
Virinder


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## spnadmin (Apr 7, 2009)

Bhagat ji

You gave a few definitions. Which definition or definitions are you using in your statement a few posts back?


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 7, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Bhagat Singh ji,
> 
> Guru fateh.
> 
> ...


Um, you can't simply draw conclusions from how many hits you get. I looked up seek and found passages saying "I seek Lord's sanctuary" etc. This is not the same as seeking the lord.
If you say seek = realize then sure. To me seek = 

To try to locate or discover; search for.
To endeavor to obtain or reach: _[SIZE=+0]seek goodness[/SIZE]_
To go to or toward: _[SIZE=+0]Seek the truth within[/SIZE]_
To inquire for; request: _[SIZE=+0]Seek directions to 3.[/SIZE] _
To try; endeavor: _[SIZE=+0]seek to do good.[/SIZE]_
This is not teh same as realize:
recognize: be fully aware or cognizant of 
understand: perceive (an idea or situation) mentally; "Now I see!"; "I just can't see your point"; "Does she realize how important this decision is?"; "I don't understand the idea"


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 7, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> You gave a few definitions. Which definition or definitions are you using in your statement a few posts back?


Aad ji why do you wnat a definition?
I will use all of them. In the context I was talkin, all of them fit in.


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## spnadmin (Apr 7, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Aad ji why do you wnat a definition?
> I will use all of them. In the context I was talkin, all of them fit in.



Let's take a look at the statement that led me to my question. 
_
think we can safely say that worshipping God is also superstition. Let me explain. After we worship him, something good happens and we are like oh, its cuz I worshipped. When we don't worship him and something bad happens, we say it happened because I didn' worhip him. But in fact, those Good and bad things were going to happen anyways. Also, after we worship we notice good things more because we are expecting them._ (BhagatSinghji)

*See Post 11.* If you are using worship to mean  "venerate as an idol" then your statement takes us in one direction. If you are using "worship" to mean feeling profound love and admiration,"  then the statement takes us in other directions.


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## spnadmin (Apr 7, 2009)

If you are using all of them, then your statement  _I think we can safely say that worshipping God is also superstition. Let me explain. After we worship him, something good happens and we are like oh, its cuz I worshipped. When we don't worship him and something bad happens, we say it happened because I didn' worhip him. But in fact, those Good and bad things were going to happen anyways. Also, after we worship we notice good things more because we are expecting them_ 

*is meaningless*


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 7, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Let's take a look at the statement that led me to my question.
> 
> _think we can safely say that worshipping God is also superstition. Let me explain. After we worship him, something good happens and we are like oh, its cuz I worshipped. When we don't worship him and something bad happens, we say it happened because I didn' worhip him. But in fact, those Good and bad things were going to happen anyways. Also, after we worship we notice good things more because we are expecting them._ (BhagatSinghji)
> 
> *See Post 11.* If you are using worship to mean "venerate as an idol" then your statement takes us in one direction. If you are using "worship" to mean feeling profound love and admiration," then the statement takes us in other directions.


I dont think so, those are different ways of worshipping. I am including all of them.

Qualifier:_Let me explain. After we worship him, something good happens and we are like oh, its cuz I worshipped. When we don't worship him and something bad happens, we say it happened because I didn' worhip him. But in fact, those Good and bad things were going to happen anyways. Also, after we worship we notice good things more because we are expecting them_

_Conclusion: think we can safely say that worshipping God is also superstition._

_My conclusion holds only if the qualifier is true._

Now lets substitute the different definitions in to the qualifier.
_Let me explain. After we show _profound love and admiration for _him, something good happens and we are like oh, its cuz I showed _profound love and admiration for him_. When we don't show _profound love and admiration for _him and something bad happens, we say it happened because I didn' show _profound love and admiration for_ him. But in fact, those Good and bad things were going to happen anyways. Also, after we show _profound love and admiration for him,_ we notice good things more because we are expecting them_

_So that's _profound love and admiration
Now for venerate as an idol. Idol = a perfect embodiment of a concept 
Venerate = a feeling of profound respect for someone or something

_Let me explain. After we _venerate him as an idol_, something good happens and we are like oh, its cuz I  _venerated him as an idol_. When we don't  _venerate him as an idol_ and something bad happens, we say it happened because I didn' t _venerate him as an idol_. But in fact, those Good and bad things were going to happen anyways. Also, after we  _venerate him as an idol,_ we notice good things more because we are expecting them_
I fnished off with: 





> Should we stop worshippin God? Sure if you are going to think that you have any form of control over God. Sure, if you are going to believe that your worshipping CAUSED God to "bless you". Sure, if you think you are any more significant than an ant is to you.


 
I hope I used that phrases correctly... I guess I dol could also be the hindu idols. I  dont think it changes the meaning too much. There might be something you're saying that I am missing, I will come back to this thread later. Please dont get frustrated if I dont get you.


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 7, 2009)

Bhagat ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. You contested the word Seek. I did not contest the word Realize. I just gave the deifniton of Worship and Seek. 

You say:



> Um, you can't simply draw conclusions from how many hits you get. I looked up seek and found passages saying "I seek Lord's sanctuary" etc. This is not the same as seeking the lord.


 
It is interesting to notice that you just did that above. So what is your point?



> If you say seek = realize then sure.


 
Well you used the word realize not me. So if you had claimed Seek= realize in your response to my post, then there is no argument but you are the one who contested it. Now you are blaming me for not saying that in the first place. This is hillarious to say the least.

Forgive me, but I have no idea what this futile argument is about from your side.



> I looked up seek and found passages saying "I seek Lord's sanctuary" etc. This is not the same as seeking the lord.


 
Did you look up Realize in the same way?

Both, Seek and Realize are used in different manners in SGGS but that was not the point of my initial post to start with.

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 7, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> I think we can safely say that worshipping God is also superstition. Let me explain. After we worship him, something good happens and we are like oh, its cuz I worshipped. When we don't worship him and something bad happens, we say it happened because I didn' worhip him. But in fact, those Good and bad things were going to happen anyways. Also, after we worship we notice good things more because we are expecting them.
> Should we stop worshippin God? Sure if you are going to think that you have any form of control over God. Sure, if you are going to believe that your worshipping CAUSED God to "bless you". Sure, if you think you are any more significant than an ant is to you.



Bhagt Singh Ji,

Imho Sikhs dont worship..they SEEK Ik Oangkaar...to MERGE with Him.
The entire SGGS is all about "SEEKING" this Merger.
Sikhs dont seek...gifts..or good things..thats why we dont desire either Heaven..are not afraid of Nark...we are to Thank him for everything..be happy if we get good things..and thankful if he sends bad ones our way...SUKH/DUKH..BOTH come from Him. his HUKM.
I will not stop "seeking Ik Oangkar"...as there is no other choice really !!..and I have seen how "big" our Earth really is in relation to the Universe...so no illusions as Guru Ji already stated..Patallan patal lakh...Thanks .


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 7, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Bhagat ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> I have no idea what you are trying to say. You contested the word Seek. I did not contest the word Realize.


Sorry about that. I thought you did. 


> I just gave the deifniton of Worship and Seek.
> 
> 
> You say:
> It is interesting to notice that you just did that above. So what is your point?


 My point was that because seek in that context is not used for seeking the lord, that there maybe other passages like it that might be contributing to the hits you got.
So you cannot base anything off the hits. I came to no other conclusion. I guess I should have explicitly stated that. 



> Well you used the word realize not me. So if you had claimed Seek= realize in your response to my post, then there is no argument but you are the one who contested it. Now you are blaming me for not saying that in the first place. This is hillarious to say the least.
> 
> Forgive me, but I have no idea what this futile argument is about from your side.
> 
> ...


To be honest I don't know why I contested "seek" as in "to obtain/ endeavor". Anyway, the confusion was caused by me. I am sorry, please clarify your initial post, if you dont mind. I thought you were contesting the words.


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 8, 2009)

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Gyani ji has echoed my thoughts. 

Tejwant Singh


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## tony (Apr 8, 2009)

Bhagat Singh ji 
I think I understood the point you where trying to make. The last two and a half years I have worked hard and my finances flourished, holding down three different types of work, Ground worker, Door supervisor and Personal trainer, This left me very little time to say my thanks in a morning certainly unable to wake up three hours before dawn, then last year things took a turn for the worst, my SIA badge expired and I didn't want to renew it, so I could no longer work as a door supervisor, then the personal training work dropped off, and in November the ground work stopped, If I was superstitious I could think this was due to the fact that I hadnt said enough thanks to God and that it was punishment, but I'm sure God doesn't work like that and I'm also pretty sure that its down to the Global recession which wasn't caused by me. Now for the last four months Ive had more time and things are looking up just landed one contract and another is in the pipeline, is this because I've had time to pray and God is rewarding me, if I thought that that would be superstitious. If I thought that God would give me the contract over any body else just because Ive prayed better would be foolish and egotistical as I'm sure many others had prayed just as hard and probably lead far better lives than myself. And if one is seeking God open your eyes God is the creation and the creation is God, If you want to merge with him according to the SGGS ji its only done thinking of him at all times and by your actions, Arguing over the meanings of words is hardly contemplating God and has little to do with superstitions. It seemed a pretty simple explanation thank you Bhagat ji
Tony


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 8, 2009)

yes Tony ji, you understood what I said. My emphasis was never on worship, it was on the mentality behind it.

Jarnail Singh ji, How do you seek God?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 8, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> yes Tony ji, you understood what I said. My emphasis was never on worship, it was on the mentality behind it.
> 
> Jarnail Singh ji, How do you seek God?



Bhagt Singh Ji,

I thought my mail was clear..still here goes...
A SIKH "seeks" GOD by trying to live his/her daily life according to His HUKM.
You see GOD is WITHIN..but we are still separated from HIM because of the walls of the 5 thieves.... Kiv Kurreh tutteh paal ? .....HUKM razaii challannna.
So the "seeking" is NOT the usual..seek and you shall find..sort of stuff...taking a torch and go seek..
for a SIKH..its seeking a way towards MERGER...breaking down the walls and REUNION.
I hope that clarifies jio...


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## spnadmin (Apr 8, 2009)

Gyani ji

Forgive me if I add something and yell if I am WRONG. 

A person "seeks" under one or two conditions. 1. One seeks something because they once had it but now it is missing, lost, mislaid. 2. One seeks something because it is absent, out of reach, or one never had it to begin with.

Waheguru is not missing, lost mislaid, absent, out of reach, or void in a person's life.  Therefore there is no seeking of Waheguru. Waheguru is always there, present, "to near to be far" therefore not out of reach, or divorced from our lives.

We create the fiction that we are "seeking" God (the way we look for a lost puppy, or posting signs for a lost relative). The truth is that we are lost in our limited awarenesses, minds wandering and roaming around aimlessly, and we cannot offer our minds to Him because we have lost our minds (Oh man you have awakened from a nightmare.)

So Waheguru is not hiding and we are not seeking, we only think we are.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 9, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Bhagt Singh Ji,
> 
> I thought my mail was clear..still here goes...
> A SIKH "seeks" GOD by trying to live his/her daily life according to His HUKM.
> ...


Why try to find a way to merge with him? Whats that going to do or accomplish?

 Tejwant ji, Aad ji has just echoed my view. 
We don't seek God but realize him. This realization is like "(Oh man you have awakened from a nightmare.) - Aad ji"


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 9, 2009)

*Where to find God?*​ 
Humans have debated since creation, about spirituality and have questioned how to find God and communicate with It? 

Guru Nanak in the mode of Raag Parbhati answers the question firstly putting all the responsibility on duality and finally on Akal Purkh Itself. It could only be achieved through devotional love and Its fear (Accepting Its Will in present) as delineated in the “Sabd Guru” by contemplation, deliberation, and reflection on the message in daily life to swim across the worldly ocean;

ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਬਉਰੀ ਮਨੁ ਬਉਰਾਇਆ॥ਝੂਠੈ ਲਾਲਚਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥ ਲਪਟਿ ਰਹੀ ਫੁਨਿ ਬੰਧੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਖੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ ॥ ਨਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋਈ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਭਉ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਤਰੈ ॥

_Ḏubiḏẖā ba▫urī man ba▫urā▫i▫ā. Jẖūṯẖai lālacẖ janam gavā▫i▫ā. Lapat rahī fun banḏẖ na pā▫i▫ā. Saṯgur rākẖe nām driṛ▫ā▫i▫ā. Nā man marai na mā▫i▫ā marai.Jin Kich Kee-aa Soyee Jaanai Sabad Veechar Bhau Sagar Tarai._

The insanity of duality has driven the mind insane. In false greed, life is wasting away. Duality clings to the mind; it cannot be restrained. The True Guru saves us, by implanting Akal Purkh’s Naam within. Without subduing the mind, Maya cannot be subdued. The One who created all this understands Itself. Contemplating the Word of the Sabd, one is carried across the terrifying world-ocean.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Parbhatee Bibhas, AGGS, Page, 1342-3

ਇਸੁ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਰਣੀ ਹੈ ਸਾਰੁ॥ਬਿਨੁ ਸਬਦੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥ਸਬਦੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਖੈ ਉਰਿ ਧਾਰਿ ॥ਸਬਦੇ ਗਤਿ ਮਤਿ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥

_Iss Jug Meh Sabad Karnee Hai Saar, Bin Sabadai Hoar Moh Gubaar, “Sabadai Naam Rahai Ourdhaar, Sabdai Gat Mit Mokh Duaar._

In this world, the practice of the Sabd is the most excellent occupation. Without the Sabd, everything else is the darkness of emotional attachment. Through the Sabd, the Naam is enshrined within the heart. Through the Sabd, one obtains clear understanding and the door of salvation. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Parbhatee Bibhas, AGGS, Page, 1342-10

Guru Arjan confirms it by stressing that all the above has to be accomplished through one’s life from beginning, mid, and till end in the mode of Gauri and Gujri;

ਆਦਿ ਮਧਿ ਜੋ ਅੰਤਿ ਨਿਬਾਹੈ ॥ਸੋ ਸਾਜਨੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਚਾਹੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਸਦਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਚਾਲੈ ॥ ਦਇਆਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲੈ ॥ ਬਿਨਸਤ ਨਾਹੀ ਛੋਡਿ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਜਹ ਪੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ ਸੁੰਦਰੁ ਸੁਘੜੁ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਜੀਅ ਦਾਤਾ ॥ ਭਾਈ ਪੂਤੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮਾਤਾ ॥ ਜੀਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਅਧਾਰ ਮੇਰੀ ਰਾਸਿ ॥ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਾਈ ਕਰਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਿਵਾਸਿ ॥ ਮਾਇਆ ਸਿਲਕ ਕਾਟੀ ਗੋਪਾਲਿ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਅਪੁਨਾ ਲੀਨੋ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲਿ ॥ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਕਾਟੇ ਸਭਿ ਰੋਗ ॥ ਚਰਣ ਧਿਆਨ ਸਰਬ ਸੁਖ ਭੋਗ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਵਤਨੁ ਨਿਤ ਬਾਲਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਖਵਾਲਾ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਦੁ ਚੀਨ ॥ ਸਰਬਸੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਭਗਤ ਕਉ ਦੀਨ ॥

_Aad MaDh Jo Ant Nibaahai, So Saajan Mayraa Man Chaahai. Har kī parīṯ saḏā sang cẖālai. Ḏa▫i▫āl purakẖ pūran paraṯipālai. Binsaṯ nāhī cẖẖod na jā▫e. Jah pekẖā ṯah rahi▫ā samā▫e. Sunḏar sugẖaṛ cẖaṯur jī▫a ḏāṯā. Bẖā▫ī pūṯ piṯā parabẖ māṯā. Jīvan parān aḏẖār merī rās. Parīṯ lā▫ī kar riḏai nivās. Mā▫i▫ā silak kātī gopāl. Kar apunā līno naḏar nihāl. Simar simar kāte sabẖ rog. Cẖaraṇ ḏẖi▫ān sarab sukẖ bẖog. Pūran purakẖ navṯan niṯ bālā. Har anṯar bāhar sang rakẖvālā. Kaho Nānak har har paḏ cẖīn. Sarbas nām bẖagaṯ ka▫o ḏīn._

My mind longs for that Friend, who shall stand by me in the beginning, in the middle and in the end. Akal Purkh's Love goes with us forever. The Perfect and Merciful God cherishes all. It shall never perish, and shall never abandon me. Wherever I look, there I see It pervading and permeating. It is Beautiful, All-knowing, the most Clever, and the Giver of life. God is my Brother, Son, Father and Mother. It is the Support of the breath of life; and is my Wealth. Abiding within my heart, It inspires me to enshrine Its love. The God of the World has cut away the noose of Maya. It has made me Its own, blessing me with Its Glance of Grace. Remembering, remembering It in meditation, all diseases are healed. Meditating on Its Feet, all comforts are enjoyed. The Perfect Primal God is Ever-fresh and Ever-young, and is with me, inwardly and outwardly, as my Protector. Says Nanak, that devotee who realizes the state of the Eternal Akal Purkh is blessed with the treasure of the Naam. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 240-10

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਭੇਟਿਐ ਪੂਰੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ॥ਹਸੰਦਿਆ ਖੇਲੰਦਿਆ ਪੈਨੰਦਿਆ ਖਾਵੰਦਿਆ ਵਿਚੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ॥

_Nanak Satgur Bhatai Poori Hovai Jugat, Hasandeyaa, Khelandiaa, Penandiaa,Vichay Hovai Mukat._

O Nanak, meeting the True Guru (Sabd Guru), one comes to know the Perfect Way. While laughing, playing, dressing and eating, he is liberated.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Gujri, AGGS, Page, 522-10

Bhagat Kabir ponders on it in Raag Parbhati; 

ਅਲਹੁ ਏਕੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਬਸਤੁ ਹੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਮੁਲਖੁ ਕਿਸੁ ਕੇਰਾ ॥ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ਦੁਹ ਮਹਿ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਹੇਰਾ ॥ ਅਲਹ ਰਾਮ ਜੀਵਉ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਈ ॥ ਤੂ ਕਰਿ ਮਿਹਰਾਮਤਿ ਸਾਈ ॥ ਦਖਨ ਦੇਸਿ ਹਰੀ ਕਾ ਬਾਸਾ ਪਛਿਮਿ ਅਲਹ ਮੁਕਾਮਾ ॥ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਖੋਜਿ ਦਿਲੈ ਦਿਲਿ ਖੋਜਹੁ ਏਹੀ ਠਉਰ ਮੁਕਾਮਾ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ ਗਿਆਸ ਕਰਹਿ ਚਉਬੀਸਾ ਕਾਜੀ ਮਹ ਰਮਜਾਨਾ ॥ਗਿਆਰਹ ਮਾਸ ਪਾਸ ਕੈ ਰਾਖੇ ਏਕੈ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਧਾਨਾ ॥ ਕਹਾ ਉਡੀਸੇ ਮਜਨੁ ਕੀਆ ਕਿਆ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਨਾਂਏਂ ॥ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਪਟੁ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰੈ ਕਿਆ ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਂਏਂ ॥ ਏਤੇ ਅਉਰਤ ਮਰਦਾ ਸਾਜੇ ਏ ਸਭ ਰੂਪ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ॥ਕਬੀਰੁ ਪੂੰਗਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਅਲਹ ਕਾ ਸਭ ਗੁਰ ਪੀਰ ਹਮਾਰੇ|| ਕਹਤੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਨਰ ਨਰਵੈ ਪਰਹੁ ਏਕ ਕੀ ਸਰਨਾ ॥ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਤਬ ਹੀ ਨਿਹਚੈ ਤਰਨਾ ॥

_Alhu Ayk Maseet Basat Hai Avar Mulakh Kis Kayraa, Hindoo Moorat Naam Nivaasee Duh Meh Tat Na Hayraa. Alah Raam Jeeva-o Tayray Naa-ee, Too Kar Mihraamat Saa-ee. Dakhan Days Haree Kaa Baasaa Pachhim Alah Mukaamaa, Dil Meh Khoj Dilai Dil Khojahu Ayhee Tha-ur Mukaamaa. Barahman Gi-aas Karahi Cha-ubeesaa Kaajee Mah Ramjaanaa, Gi-aareh Maas Paas Kai Raakhay Aikai Maahi NiDhaanaa. Kahaa Udeesay Majan Kee-aa Ki-aa Maseet Sir NaaN-ayN, Dil Meh Kapat Nivaaj Gujaarai Ki-Aa Haj Kaabai JaaN-ayN. Aytay A-urat Mardaa Saajay Ay Sabh Roop TumHaaray, Kabir Poongraa Raam Alah Kaa Sabh Gur Peer Hamaaray. Kahat Kabir Sunhu Nar Narvai Parahu Ayk Kee Sarnaa, Kayval Naam Japahu Ray Paraanee Tab Hee Nihchai Tarnaa._

If the God Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong? According to the Hindus, the It's Name abides in the idol, but there is no truth in either of these claims. O Allah, O Ram, I live by Your Name. Please show mercy to me, O Master.The God of the Hindus lives in the southern lands, and the God of the Muslims lives in the west. So search in your heart - look deep into your heart of hearts; this is the home and the place where God lives. The Brahmins observe twenty-four fasts during the year, and the Muslims fast during the month of Ramadan. The Muslims set aside eleven months, and claim that the treasure is only in the one month. What is the use of bathing at Orissa? Why do the Muslims bow their heads in the mosque? If someone has deception in his heart, what good is it for him to utter prayers? And what good is it for him to go on pilgrimage to Mecca? You fashioned all these men and women, O God, all these are Your Forms. Kabir is the child of God/Allah/Ram. All the Gurus and prophets are mine.

Says Kabir, listen, O men and women: seek the Sanctuary of the One. Chant the Naam, ts Name, O mortals, and you shall surely be carried across.-----Kabir, Raag Parbhati, AGGS, Page, 1349

*Conclusion;*

Akal Purkh could only be found in individual’s Self veiled by lower instincts of ਹਉਮੈ, being metaphysical, invisible, incomprehensible, and unfathomable spirit, It does not live in religious symbols, or garb or any kind of rituals but in Self reached through Its 
Devotional love. Guru Gobind Singh ponders in Akal Ustit and Bachitar Natak;

ਕਹਾ ਭਯੋ ਦੋਊ ਲੋਚਨ ਮੂੰਦਕੈ ਬੈਠਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਬਕ ਧਯਾਨ ਲਗਾਇਓ ॥ ਬਾਸੁ ਕੀਓ ਬਿਖਿਆਨ ਸੋ ਬੈਠ ਕੈ ਐਸੇ ਹੀ ਐਸ ਸੁ ਬੈਸ ਬਤਾਇਓ ॥ ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹੌ ਸੁਨ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਭੈ ਜਿਨ ਪੇ੍ਮ ਕੀਉ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਭੁ ਪਾਇਓ ॥ ੯ ॥ ੨੯ ॥ ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਪਾਹਨ ਪੂਜ ਧਰੋ ਸਿਰ ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਲਿੰਗੁ ਗਰੇ ਲਟਕਾਇਓ ॥ ਕਾਹੂ ਲਖਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਅਵਾਚੀ ਦਿਸਾ ਮੈ ਕਾਹੂ ਪਛਾਹ ਕੋ ਸੀਸ ਨਿਵਾਇਓ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਬੁਤਾਨ ਕੌ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੈ ਪਸੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਿਤਾ੍ਨ ਕੌ ਪੂਜਨ ਧਾਇਓ ॥ ਕੂਰ ਕਿ੍ਆ ਉਰਝਿਓ ਸਭ ਜਗ ਸੀ੍ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕੋ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ॥ ੧੦ ॥ ੩੦ ॥ 

_Kaha Bheo Deo Lochan Moondkai Baith Rahio Bak Dhyan Lagaeo, Bas Keo Bikhian So Baith Kai Aisay So Bais Bataeo, Saach Kaho Sun Leh Sabhai Jin Prem Keo Tin He Prabh Paeo, Kaho Lai Pahan Pooj Sir Kaho Lai Ling Garay Latkaeo, Kaho Lakheo Har Aavachi Disa Mai Kaho Ko Pachah Sis Nivaeo, Ko-ou Butaan Kou Poojat Hai Pso Ko-ou Mitran Kaou Poojan Dhaeo, Koor Kiria Orjheo Sabh Jag Sri Bhagwan Ko Bhayd Na Paa-eo._ 

What if you close your eyes and sit in meditation like a crane/heron; take ablutions in the seven seas- but this way you loose both this world and the next; if one continues to indulge in sinful things, he wastes his life; Let all listen to the truth I proclaim- only he who loves attains the God. Some worship the stone idol and other wear a lingam around their neck; some recognize Akal Purkh in south and others bow their heads to the west; some ignorant ones worship the images and others worship the dead; the entire world is engrossed in false rituals and none knows the mystery of the Divine. -----Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustit, D.G. Page, 14-15

He further points out on DG page 24 that artificial rituals like Hom Jag are useless and are not equal to devotion and Naam;

ਬਿਨ ਭਗਤ ਸਕਤ ਨਹੀ ਪਰਤ ਪਾਨ ॥ ਬਹੁ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਮ ਅਰ ਜੱਗ ਦਾਨ ॥ ਬਿਨ ਏਕ ਨਾਮ ਇਕ ਚਿੱਤ ਲੀਨ ॥ ਫੋਕਟੋ ਸਰਬ ਧਰਮਾ ਬਿਹੀਨ ॥ ੨੦ ॥ ੧੪੦ ॥ 
_Bin Bhagat Sakat Nhai Parat Paan, Boh Karat Hom Ur Jag Daan, Bin Ek Naam Ik Chit Leen, Fokto Sarb Dharma Baheen. _

Thou can not realize Akal Purkh with out power of devotion; many perform yajnas (Akhand Path) and give charities though; Except for placing the Name of Real One in heart, all other deeds are futile.

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI


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## spnadmin (Apr 9, 2009)

Bhagat ji

I have not echoed your view. I have echoed Gyani ji's view. You are traveling down a road in your arguments that are not at all consistent with my stand on this matter. Please take a closer look at the shabad in which Guru ji says, Oh man! You have awakened from a nightmare. BTW it should be "tormented" not "awakened." My mistake. But in the shabad below we seek sanctuary; we not not seek Akaal himself. The inspiration is within to wake us up. 

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੩ ॥ 
salok ma 3 ||
Shalok, Third Mehl:
 9    ਰੇ ਜਨ ਉਥਾਰੈ ਦਬਿਓਹੁ ਸੁਤਿਆ ਗਈ ਵਿਹਾਇ ॥ 
rae jan outhhaarai dhabiouhu suthiaa gee vihaae ||
O man, you have been tormented by a nightmare, and you have passed your life in sleep.

 ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਨ ਜਾਗਿਓ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਨ ਉਪਜਿਓ ਚਾਉ ॥ 
sathigur kaa sabadh sun n jaagiou anthar n oupajiou chaao ||
You did not wake to hear the Word of the True Guru's Shabad; you have no inspiration within yourself.

 ਸਰੀਰੁ ਜਲਉ ਗੁਣ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਜੋ ਗੁਰ ਕਾਰ ਨ ਕਮਾਇ ॥ 
sareer jalo gun baaharaa jo gur kaar n kamaae ||
That body burns, which has no virtue, and which does not serve the Guru.

 ਜਗਤੁ ਜਲੰਦਾ ਡਿਠੁ ਮੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥ 
jagath jalandhaa ddith mai houmai dhoojai bhaae ||
I have seen that the world is burning, in egotism and the love of duality.

 ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਉਬਰੇ ਸਚੁ ਮਨਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਧਿਆਇ ॥੧॥ 
naanak gur saranaaee oubarae sach man sabadh dhhiaae ||1||
O Nanak, those who seek the Guru's Sanctuary are saved; within their minds, they meditate on the True Word of the Shabad. ||1||


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 21, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Gyani ji
> 
> Forgive me if I add something and yell if I am WRONG.
> 
> ...


Ok I may have misunderstoof you but I agree with what you wrote here.

Jarnail Singh ji says that Sikhs seek a way to merge with God.
Ok, that raises questions in my head: why merge with God? When have we separated from him?


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 21, 2009)

Guru Sahib tells us to crush the 5 theives into bits, these separate us from God. Union with God is acheived when attachment, anger, lust, ego, and greed are out of your system. Otherwise we are living in heaven or hell on this earth. You can choose which road out of these you want to take. But a Sikh takes none of these roads and takes the road less traveled, which is to gain union/realize/merge with God. There is no heaven and there is no hell, there is only God.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 21, 2009)

Dear Teji Ji,

Here is what Guru Arjan Says about Ik Ong Kaar;


                                                                                                           ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੧

_                                                                                                       Bẖairo mėhlā 5 gẖar 1_

                                                                                              Bhairao, Fifth Mehl, First House:

                                                                                                         ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

_                                                                                                     Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ._

                                                                           One Universal Creator God. By The Grace of The True Guru:

ਸਗਲੀ ਥੀਤਿ ਪਾਸਿ ਡਾਰਿ ਰਾਖੀ ॥ ਅਸਟਮ ਥੀਤਿ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਜਨਮਾ ਸੀ ॥੧॥ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੂਲੇ ਨਰ ਕਰਤ ਕਚਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਤੇ ਰਹਤ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਪੰਜੀਰੁ ਖਵਾਇਓ ਚੋਰ ॥ ਓਹੁ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਰੇ ਸਾਕਤ ਢੋਰ ॥੨॥ ਸਗਲ ਪਰਾਧ ਦੇਹਿ ਲੋਰੋਨੀ ॥ ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥ 

_Saglī thīṯ pās dār rākẖī. Astam thīṯ govinḏ janmā sī. ||1|| Bẖaram bẖūle nar karaṯ kacẖrā▫iṇ. Janam maraṇ ṯe rahaṯ nārā▫iṇ. ||1|| rahā▫o. Kar panjīr kẖavā▫i▫o cẖor. Oh janam na marai re sākaṯ dẖor. ||2|| Sagal parāḏẖ ḏėh loronī. So mukẖ jala▫o jiṯ kahėh ṯẖākur jonī. ||3|| Janam na marai na āvai na jā▫e. Nānak kā parabẖ rahi▫o samā▫e. ||4||1||_ 

Setting aside all other days, it is said, that the God was born on the eighth lunar day. ||1|| Deluded and confused by doubt, the mortal practices falsehood. The God is beyond birth and death.||1||Pause|| You prepare sweet treats and feed them to your stone god. God is not born, and It does not die, you foolish, faithless cynic! ||2|| You sing lullabies to your stone god - this is the source of all your mistakes. Let that mouth be burnt, which says that our Akal Purkh and Master is subject to birth. ||3|| It is not born, does not die, and does not come and go in reincarnation. The God of Nanak is pervading and permeating everywhere. ||4||1|| ------Guru Arjan, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1136

Cordially,

Virinder


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 22, 2009)

Singh said:


> Guru Sahib tells us to crush the 5 theives into bits, these separate us from God. *Union with God is acheived when attachment, anger, lust, ego, and greed are out of your system.* Otherwise we are living in heaven or hell on this earth. You can choose which road out of these you want to take. But a Sikh takes none of these roads and takes the road less traveled, which is to gain union/realize/merge with God. There is no heaven and there is no hell, there is only God.


That ONLY happens unless you are dead or have some sort of brain damage.
Normal humans feel those emotions. To throw them out of your system is to throw the engine out of a car.

I wouldn't put it as harshly as you did. A Sikh must rid of the *extremes* of attachment, anger, lust, ego, and greed, not the actual emotions themselves. extreme = too much
We all have those are some level but if this level rises too much then illness will develop. For example, too much anger will cause stress, which in the long run will cause damage to your body, to put it simply. But anger is a great source of SHORT TERM stress, which will boost your system, provide adrenaline. The sort of thing Sikhs used to their advantage in wars!
So we must keep them controlled, and not get rid of them.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 23, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> That ONLY happens unless you are dead or have some sort of brain damage.
> Normal humans feel those emotions. To throw them out of your system is to throw the engine out of a car.
> 
> I wouldn't put it as harshly as you did. A Sikh must rid of the *extremes* of attachment, anger, lust, ego, and greed, not the actual emotions themselves. extreme = too much
> ...



I think both you and Singh are going along the correct lines, but the issue to really watch out for is OBSESSION with the 5 thieves. That is what Bani is getting at.

Someone obsessed say with Hankaar, or image of himself becomes so selfish that they only think about themselves and too hell with everyone else. They think they are better than others. They are easy to play up too, for example I was dealing with a legal issue yesterday, and the solicitor was being somewhat unco-oporative. I noticed he was wearing a wig yet he had a picture of himself in his youth in the office. I complemented him on how handsome he was in his youth. His judgement became so clouded because I had pumped his ego up so much he was willing to do anything for me after that. Call me manipulative, but people like this are easily played up, that they become almost intoxicated with the thieves. They are called thieves because they rob you of reason (like this man).


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## spnadmin (Apr 23, 2009)

*Singh ji

I think Randip ji has been more than patient with constant personal bashing and name-calling. Show that you are willing to come to terms with forum guidelines and delete this additional accusation voluntarily. That would show that you are sincere about wanting to have a meaningful conversation. 

Otherwise I will delete it. Thank you 
aad002*


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 23, 2009)

To get your point left up is a hustle.  By this notion I guess I can call myself a Hustler.  And I Hustle hard:yes:


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## spnadmin (Apr 23, 2009)

Not bad.  Still waiting for you to delete that post.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 23, 2009)

Aad ji, you expect me to walk away from telling the Truth.  This will never happen.

*It was not honest. The post was moved out of the forum for discussion because it was a rude and dishonest accusation. aad0002*


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