# Am I Right Or Wrong? (Turban Question)



## mrjessie123 (Oct 14, 2012)

I have had a turban all my life and have believed in my culture of Sikhism from the moment i was taught it. I have never thought of cutting my hair and want to continue wearing it for the rest of my life. I go to the gurdwara regularly and love going, it makes me feel better and i  love serving for the gurdwara. But i do trim my beard, drink, eat meat, and smoke weed once in a long while. im not amritshak so i thought meat wouldn't be a big deal and alcohol i just have with my buddies for enjoyment. I trim my bared cause as long as i have hair i never saw a problem and smoking weed is just once in a while thing. I thought as long as you stay true to your god and respect, understand and follow what you believe in, its all fine. Just cause i like to live my life in a outgoing and traditional matter does that mean im wrong ? i just wanted your guys of point of view, thank you.


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## Luckysingh (Oct 14, 2012)

*Re: Am i right or wrong?*

Not sure what you want to classify as right or wrong here.
The post clearly tells me that you must be young, say under 21 because smoking weed seems to be the norm !!


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## Harry Haller (Oct 15, 2012)

*Re: Am i right or wrong?*



mrjessie123 said:


> I have had a turban all my life and have believed in my culture of Sikhism from the moment i was taught it. I have never thought of cutting my hair and want to continue wearing it for the rest of my life. I go to the gurdwara regularly and love going, it makes me feel better and i  love serving for the gurdwara. But i do trim my beard, drink, eat meat, and smoke weed once in a long while. im not amritshak so i thought meat wouldn't be a big deal and alcohol i just have with my buddies for enjoyment. I trim my bared cause as long as i have hair i never saw a problem and smoking weed is just once in a while thing. I thought as long as you stay true to your god and respect, understand and follow what you believe in, its all fine. Just cause i like to live my life in a outgoing and traditional matter does that mean im wrong ? i just wanted your guys of point of view, thank you.



You sound like a very nice young man, your clearly not an addict, you have clearly found your balance, SRM dictates a Sikh as 

*The Definition of Sikh :*

* Article I*

*Any human being who faithfully believes in* i. One Immortal Being, 
ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib, 
iii. The Guru Granth Sahib, 
iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh

Are you right or wrong? well obviously you are wrong, otherwise that little voice in your head would not keep nagging away at you, and you would have no need to post this!

Its good, very good, but its not enough, but that is not to say you should do something about it, only you know. There is a sublime pleasure in giving all to the Guru, as there is giving all the to the flesh. 

We are all different, there are those that would condemn you, whilst doing worse themselves, you have to figure it out for yourself, no one has the right to tell you you are right or wrong, only your own self has that right. Listen to your heart, if the guilt of drinking, cutting beard, smoking, is wearing you down, then weigh pleasures against the guilt, you will live, you will play the game, but the pinnacle of understanding that Sikhism offers you will be lost, as you do not have the focus, but then, I have yet to meet someone that has, although I can think of a few people on this forum that come close. 

Life is a long journey, decide what you want, to live? to learn? to find enlightenment? to mirror the qualities of Creator, it is yoru choice and there is no right or wrong, only you. 

I will say two things, firstly, it is important to reflect on the outside who we are on the inside, or we become empty, and we deal in double standards, secondly, to others viewing you, you are not representing Sikhism as it should be represented. You will give others a false view, in the same way that a policeman in uniform who breaks the law gives the impression all policemen are corrupt. 

Hope that helps​


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Oct 15, 2012)

*Re: Am i right or wrong?*

Brother, trimming your beard = cutting your hair and I can prove that by using the 7 laws of English 

Here is what Gurbani says against alcohol:

ਮਾਣਸੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਆਣਿਆ ਮਾਣਸੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਆਇ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਪੀਤੈ ਮਤਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਬਰਲੁ ਪਵੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਇ ॥ ਆਪਣਾ ਪਰਾਇਆ ਨ ਪਛਾਣਈ ਖਸਮਹੁ ਧਕੇ ਖਾਇ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਪੀਤੈ ਖਸਮੁ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਦਰਗਹ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥ ਝੂਠਾ ਮਦੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਪੀਚਈ ਜੇ ਕਾ ਪਾਰਿ ਵਸਾਇ ॥
Maanas bhariaa aaniaa maanas bhariaa jaai. Jit peetai mati door hoi baral pavai vich aai. Apnaa paraayaa n pahhanaee khasmahu dhakke khaai. Jit peetai khasam visrai dargah milai sajaai. Jhoothaa madu mool n peechaee je kaa paar vasaai 

One men brings (a full vessel, bottle, etc. – of ਮਦੁ = intoxication, wine, spirituous liqueur, etc.), another comes and fills a cup there from. By drinking it, one’s intelligence departs, and madness enters his mind. Then he cannot distinguish between his own and others’ (ਆਪਣੇ ਪਰਾਏ ਦੀ ਪਛਾਣ), and he is buffeted by his Master. By drinking it, he forgets his Master, and suffers. Don’t drink the false ਮਦੁ (intoxication, wine, etc.) at all, if it is in your power (sggs 554).


ਨਿਝਰ ਧਾਰ ਚੁਐ ਅਤਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਇਹ ਰਸ ਮਨੂਆ ਰਾਤੋ ਰੇ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਸਗਲੇ ਮਦ ਛੂਛੇ ਇਹੈ ਮਹਾ ਰਸੁ ਸਾਚੋ ਰੇ ॥
Nijhar dhaar chooai ati nirmal ih rasa manooaa raato re
The pure stream (of the true Wine of Naam) constantly trickles forth, and my mind is intoxicated by this sublime elixir. Says Kabeer, all other wines are trivial and tasteless; this is the only true elixir || 4||1|| (sggs 969).


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Oct 15, 2012)

*Re: Am i right or wrong?*

Marijuana, hmm frankly I have never tried it 

It relaxes your mind probably. Puts you in a good mood. Destroys your aggression. But still it takes away the control of your mind away from you. And like said above, whatever makes your mind go out of control, should be avoided.

A Sikh is always in balance and control mentally. This is something called Sehaj Awastha.

More on marijuana:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=396766


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Oct 15, 2012)

*Re: Am i right or wrong?*

Mrjessie123 ji,

You are wrong and this is why.  

I am not going to discuss meat because there is so much dissension about that. Now...

To begin, when you look like a Sikh people will think you are a Sikh and believe you are what a Sikh is and, more importantly, believe you represent what Sikhi teaches.  Sikhi teaches that intoxicants should be avoided.  Sikhi teaches us that our natural form is sacred and should be left unaltered.  So drinking alcohol and getting high on weed are out, as is trimming(cutting) the beard.  (Reminds me of the current PA campaign _buzzed_ driving _is drunk driving_) And, of course, Sikhs ought not to be smoking anything; tobacco is the worst, but I doubt that any Gursikh would advocate smoking weed.

So,please realise that when others see you as a Sikh, they are also seeing me and all the rest of us.

More important, when you present a Sikh roop, you are representing Guru ji.  Would any of our Gurus Sahiban do the things you talk about.  [Forgive me, Gursikhs, but we need these images:]  Can you imagine Guru Nanak ji going clubbing?  Or even just having a sociable drink with friends?  Or Guru Gobind Singh ji toking?

I am not suggesting that you ditch the turban and cut the hair, I am rather suggesting that you look beyond yourself to the community and our Gurus themselves to get a handle on why what you're doing isn't right.  Get a grip and try to live up to the image of the Sikh you present.

Anyway, as Harry ji says, you know very well that this is wrong.  I think you're just hoping that people here will say, "No, dude, it's OK.  Just do as you like."  You won't get that from me.

BTW, this is also the reason I reject some fashion designer's effort to make the Sikh turban a "fashion statement."


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## TigerStyleZ (Oct 16, 2012)

*Re: Am i right or wrong?*

Buddy, ask you the question , why you are doing this. I can clearly see that you have doubts  on what you are doing, thats why you are questioing and posting. Somehow you know doing that  things is wrong. But you don´t want to accept. So you declare your doings as "right". 

inderjeet ji, has made a great point.. you are not only representing you you are representing whole panth... If you want to have fun go out do some pranks or whatever, this is 100  x better than doing, stuff like this.

I dont see any point in alcohol or enjoyment.. There is no enjoyment... You are funny or not, if you start drinking you aint gonna get funny or stuff!  This is all to just to supress your toughts and impress others..


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## findingmyway (Oct 17, 2012)

More reading for your interest:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/36187-one-drink-too-many-discussion-alcohol.html

You can't be "true to your god and respect, understand and follow what you believe in" when you don't have control over your mind!!

http://www.testcountry.org/10-most-common-health-side-effects-of-using-marijuana.htm

I have a friend who suffers from severe imsomnia following occasional recreational marijuana use in his younger years. He will suffer the consequences for the rest of his life 

Choice is yours


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## spnadmin (Dec 9, 2012)

I am a little saddened that you began the thread with a title that says (Turban Question) and you are asking about many things other than tying a turban. Don't you think that is not completely up and up? I agree with Inderjeet Kaur who says the turban represents the Sikh roop. Then and there you mislead others who think you are serious about everything else.

There are Singhs who tie a turban, and perhaps trim their beards too. All are free to make choices. There is one difference. They are not coming aboard seeking approval or making excuses for the "somethings else."


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## Siri Kamala (Dec 9, 2012)

SSA!

I am no expert, by any stretch, but I think it's important to keep in mind that the SRM is a code created by men -- specifically Sikh men, living in the Punjab, existing in a particular time and in a particular culture.

If Sikhism had evolved out of China, say...or Africa..., or Scandinavia... then what we'd see in the SRM would likely be very different because the cultural influences would be very different.  I doubt there would be any talk of turbans because turbans were not symbolic of royalty in those places.

Perhaps an analogy
Let's say Waheguru ji is the moon.  The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is pointing at the moon (in other words providing us with guidance about how to become closer to God).  The SRM is pointing at the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (in other words, attempting to explain to us what the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says the rules are for being a good Sikh).  I believe it is a mistake to point at a book about pointing at the moon and say that we are, in doing so, actually pointing at the moon.  They are not the same thing.

I understand the importance many people place on external symbols of one's religious/cultural identity, and maintaining the "purity" of that identity.  Without those external symbols, it is easy for a group to become swallowed up by larger and/or more heavy-handed proselytizing faiths around it, so there is value in embracing those externally visible things which make Sikhs different from Hindus, or Muslims, or Christians, etc.

What I dislike is when I see people placing as much importance (if not MORE) on these external symbols, and on "rule following" for its own sake, than they place on actually *being* a good Sikh on the _inside_ (i.e. meditating on the name, serving others, doing honest work, studying gurbani, etc.)

I believe it is possible to be a good Sikh on the inside who occasionally drinks, smokes weed, cuts hair, etc.  Waheguru ji does not love us any less for falling short of the ideal.

There may be a way in which these things slow our progress toward reunion with Waheguru. Alcohol and marijuana cloud the mind.  It is hard to meditate on the Naam when the mind is clouded.

Cutting hair is, to an extent, a disavowal of one's association with Sikhi.   When one grows hair and wears a turban, it sparks curiosity (especially outside of India/Pakistan), and can sometimes even spark fear because of others' ignorance (assuming anyone wearing a turban  must be a radical Islamist).  

Let's say there was a different religion -- one that required, instead of the 5 K's, 5 other items to be on one's person at any given time -- an earring in the ear (could be clipped or pierced), a metal circlet around the head, a cotton knit shirt, an arrow, and a linen handkerchief or washcloth.  And let's say that religion require that all members wear their hair in a mohawk style.

To an outsider those things seem fairly superficial and silly, but it also might inspire  questions about what the items mean, why hair is worn that way, etc.  They ask a person from that religion to explain, and perhaps they come to see those symbols as meaningful and beautiful and begin to explore the religion for themselves.  It's a much better route than  coming to a faith because of fear of death (or almost as bad, fear of Hell).

All this to say, I think you will do the right thing as it becomes clear in your heart what the right thing to do is.  We are all on our own path, learning the best we can, often learning more from our mistakes than we ever could from being saintly and/or successful.

Be patient with your process.  All is well.   peacesignkaur


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## chazSingh (Dec 10, 2012)

mrjessie123 said:


> I have had a turban all my life and have believed in my culture of Sikhism from the moment i was taught it. I have never thought of cutting my hair and want to continue wearing it for the rest of my life. I go to the gurdwara regularly and love going, it makes me feel better and i love serving for the gurdwara. But i do trim my beard, drink, eat meat, and smoke weed once in a long while. im not amritshak so i thought meat wouldn't be a big deal and alcohol i just have with my buddies for enjoyment. I trim my bared cause as long as i have hair i never saw a problem and smoking weed is just once in a while thing. I thought as long as you stay true to your god and respect, understand and follow what you believe in, its all fine. Just cause i like to live my life in a outgoing and traditional matter does that mean im wrong ? i just wanted your guys of point of view, thank you.



Satnaam JI,

There are some good replies to your question from the sangat members already.

It is not for anyone of us to judge you....but what we can do is give you some insight into our own experiences.

in a simplistic way, i see two ways of learning in life...
1. when we do something (an action) we 'react' to our inner feeling, and recognise what we are doing and we then 'try' to make changes to them.
2. We live through the 'Hell' of the experience, and learn the hard way, but once we are through the storm, we are uplifted and recognise the correct way forward.

Both of these are ways that god has created...throughout life we'll go with 1. or 2.

my advice to you is to start making small changes...bit by bit you'll change for the better.

From my own experience...i used to drink quite regulary...then i fell in love with doing Simran and meditating on God. It is this love inside that helped me let go of my bad habits...but it took some time.

We spent a lifetime building bad habbits and programming them into our brains.....it sometimes take a while to get us out of them.

God bless Ji.


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## chazSingh (Dec 10, 2012)

Siri Kamala said:


> SSA!
> 
> I am no expert, by any stretch, but I think it's important to keep in mind that the SRM is a code created by men -- specifically Sikh men, living in the Punjab, existing in a particular time and in a particular culture.
> 
> ...


 
You make some very good points.
from everything you say i guess the conclusion is a good balance of everything 

I have long hair....when i meditate/simran in the early hours before sunrise i have my hair tied in a rishi knot. Some say the long hair helps generate/focus spitiual energy. I have only experienced having long hair so i cannot compare to not having long hair.

My meditation/simran is working for me, so i guess i'll remain with my outer form 

the body i guess uses a huge amount of energy re-growing hair etc. for myself i like to keep the body as calm as possible. Its hard to explain...little things can affect my focus/concentration/relaxation when i sit and meditate. Eating heavy meals stresses the body and it becomes lethargic...again this affects my Simran/meditation. A lighter meal and i feel energized/relaxed and focussed. If you find anything that helps for your inner journey then it's all good 

The drugs /alcohol definately won't help...but a person still has a chance of coming out of the experience for the better with xtra energy and focus on god. 

but as guru ji says, personal effort can only take us so far...gods grace is required after that. Keep a good balance of outer and inner sikhi. 
God bless all.


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## TigerStyleZ (Dec 11, 2012)

Sat Siri Akal -
Siri Kamala ji, 
sorry to say, but I dont agree with some of your points.



> I am no expert, by any stretch, but I think it's important to keep in  mind that the SRM is a code created by men -- specifically Sikh men,  living in the Punjab, existing in a particular time and in a particular  culture.
> 
> If Sikhism had evolved out of China, say...or Africa..., or  Scandinavia... then what we'd see in the SRM would likely be very  different because the cultural influences would be very different.  I  doubt there would be any talk of turbans because turbans were not  symbolic of royalty in those places.


Yes, it is a Code created by man, but the Guru Granth Sahib ji as well, so where do you draw the line? What _*IF*_ like you say, someone else says the same about the Guru Granth Sahib ji and changes meanings, words - phrases ? Would this be tenable? No , it wouldnt! But sadly exactly this is happening, e.g. Deras, Soamis , 'Babas' ( I know pointing and someone else is bad, but you can´t deny the facts and truth) 
And here again we go, _*IF*_ Sikhi had evovled out of China, there might be no 'fuss'/'talk' about hair or Turban, but about other things. Lets take the hair case - _*MAYBE*_ in China it would be mandatory to cut hair and have short hair , what *IF* we take that* Scenario*?



> Perhaps an analogy
> Let's say Waheguru ji is the moon.  The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is  pointing at the moon (in other words providing us with guidance about  how to become closer to God).  The SRM is pointing at the Sri Guru  Granth Sahib Ji (in other words, attempting to explain to us what the  Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says the rules are for being a good Sikh).  I  believe it is a mistake to point at a book about pointing at the moon  and say that we are, in doing so, actually pointing at the moon.  They  are not the same thing.


Yes, pointing at the book and calling it moon would be wrong in this case. But the SRM, is not poining at the moon, it is just the *CODE OF CONDUCT*, that should faccilliate our life. The SRM makes a compromise. It is the ambassador/mediator. Without norms like this we would live in {censored}aigne.




> I understand the importance many people place on external symbols of  one's religious/cultural identity, and maintaining the "purity" of that  identity.  Without those external symbols, it is easy for a group to  become swallowed up by larger and/or more heavy-handed proselytizing  faiths around it, so there is value in embracing those externally  visible things which make Sikhs different from Hindus, or Muslims, or  Christians, etc.
> 
> What I dislike is when I see people placing as much importance (if not  MORE) on these external symbols, and on "rule following" for its own  sake, than they place on actually *being* a good Sikh on the _inside_ (i.e. meditating on the name, serving others, doing honest work, studying gurbani, etc.)


Exactly, thats why we have the 5 K´s to distinguish! It gives us an (different) *IDENTITY* and thats almost the main point of the external Symbols. The external Symbols remind us of what we are, what we are doing and where we going! So they have an important ROLE to play! They are our Guidelines ! Here again, in life we have to make *COMPROMISES,  *just look closely on your environment, on the place you are living.  So, what immediately will catch your eye is , that you are _*ALREADY*_ living accoriding rules! The Society, the ' democracy' , you are living in is MAN-MADE as well, but you , because you live there , already accepted and made compromises! For example, you have a court - that sends someone to jail if he had killed someone or stolen expensive items. So here you can clearly see, the point , right?  This is just the same and applys here. 

Futhermore think about the 'short comings' , people who are uneducated and/or have other problems? For them the SRM, is the perfect way to learn, develope theirselves. Because they have these Guidelines! Of course, we are Human beings, and we will make mistakes , this isn´t the question! But we will learn out of our mistakes! And that is so important about it. And the guidelines will help us defining ourselves, be it the SRM or any other Codes of conducts!



> I believe it is possible to be a good Sikh on the inside who  occasionally drinks, smokes weed, cuts hair, etc.  Waheguru ji does not  love us any less for falling short of the ideal.


Well said, Waheguru/Allah/God/Jah'we loves all the same. 



And please don´t feel offendend, this wasn´t my intention, my writing style is just very odd.


Waheguru ji ka Khalsa , Waheguru ji ki Fateh!


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Dec 11, 2012)

> I am no expert, by any stretch, but I think it's important to keep in mind that the SRM is a code created by men -- specifically Sikh men, living in the Punjab, existing in a particular time and in a particular culture.


 
Do you know that cigarettes were made by man, consumed in all countries and can cause lung cancer to potentially any human who smokes them? That doesn't make them something with a universal appeal.



> If Sikhism had evolved out of China, say...or Africa..., or Scandinavia... then what we'd see in the SRM would likely be very different because the cultural influences would be very different. I doubt there would be any talk of turbans because turbans were not symbolic of royalty in those places.


 
Sikhi is for human beings, the cultural influences in Gurbani are surely a way of putting the message across. Turban is inevitable when you have long hair.



> I understand the importance many people place on external symbols of one's religious/cultural identity, and maintaining the "purity" of that identity. Without those external symbols, it is easy for a group to become swallowed up by larger and/or more heavy-handed proselytizing faiths around it, so there is value in embracing those externally visible things which make Sikhs different from Hindus, or Muslims, or Christians, etc.


 
The 5k's are not given to give us a distinct identity. If that be, one symbol of identity would have been enough. All have a distinct purpose, a lifestyle theme.



> I believe it is possible to be a good Sikh on the inside who occasionally drinks, smokes weed, cuts hair, etc. Waheguru ji does not love us any less for falling short of the ideal.


 
Earlier someone thought one could be a good Sikh even if he enjoys a glass of wine a day. Drinking is a BIG problem amongst Sikhs. And it is not allowed. Smoking weed or cutting hair not allowed. I think it is not in line with Guru Sahib's philosophy. As simple as that.



> Cutting hair is, to an extent, a disavowal of one's association with Sikhi. When one grows hair and wears a turban, it sparks curiosity (especially outside of India/Pakistan), and can sometimes even spark fear because of others' ignorance (assuming anyone wearing a turban must be a radical Islamist).


 
Yup this guy scared the Catholic world with his evolution revolution!









> Let's say there was a different religion -- one that required, instead of the 5 K's, 5 other items to be on one's person at any given time -- an earring in the ear (could be clipped or pierced), a metal circlet around the head, a cotton knit shirt, an arrow, and a linen handkerchief or washcloth. And let's say that religion require that all members wear their hair in a mohawk style.


 
That religion will not be what our 10 Gurus left us.


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## chazSingh (Dec 12, 2012)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> Earlier someone thought one could be a good Sikh even if he enjoys a glass of wine a day. Drinking is a BIG problem amongst Sikhs. And it is not allowed. Smoking weed or cutting hair not allowed. I think it is not in line with Guru Sahib's philosophy. As simple as that.


 
Nice post Kanwaljit Ji,

People often say they can be a good sikh even though they drink, smoke do drugs etc. comments like this i believe come from a lack of understanding of what a sikh is.

A sikh is a 'disciple' a 'seeker of god' .... this is our life mission.
a major aspect of being sikh is to do simran/meditation on gods name during Amrit Vela. I cannot understand how one can do this when indulging in drink/drugs etc...but sometimes we only realise this through making the mistakes.

I was the same...somehow i used to manage to get up at 3am in the morning to try Amrit vela, but only six hours previously i would have had a glass of wine and would think my body would remove the alcohol before i do my simran.... thats how stupid i was.

But i'm glad i went through that process, because i could experience how the alcohol had affected my Simran...

i couldnt 'seek god' while drinking...no matter how much i tried to justify my actions...it was a road block.

God bless all.


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## TigerStyleZ (Dec 12, 2012)

Kanwaljit , nice addition to my post! What you said , was exactly that what I meant. Thank you. We have to set up priorites.:redturban:


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