# Is Bhatt Bani Not Guru?



## Pyramid

*Gurbani came from the True Source: Divine Lord. Gurbani is Gurprashaad. Guru Stamped it with word ‘GurPrasaad’ everywhere. Gurbani is compiled as a collection of Hymns collected from different Saints irrespective of color, cast, creed, time and religion. Jahangir wanted Guru Ji to delete Bani of other Saints from Granth Ji, But Guru Ji accepted to sit on the hot plate instead, let the opponents pour burning sand over His physical abode. *


*Yesterday and today, das read a few very interesting comments on the net. Sharing with all to know everybody’s view:*
*A very highly regarded, knowledgeable Gusikh telling a new Gursikh*: “With all due respect I urge you not to take a a few Sikhs' blind theory as a true Sikh tenent. What they are doing on this site they just select a few Guru waak or some Bhatt bani to prove their case that guru is God.”
*Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20491-literal-meaning-of-gurbani-2.html*
*Another Gursikh telling a Gursikh*: "I am first and foremost a Sikh Historian who has studied patetrns and behavior within Sikhism. This concept of thinking Guru's are God is not new and emerges from time to time and is a hangover of our Hindu past."
*Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/19100-nanak-is-guru-nanak-lord-himself-43.html*
*Another Gursikh Telling a Gursikh*: ""Gur Parmeshar eko jaan". A true Guru will never say he is God but sometimes the Guru is left with no choice and for the sake of progress he will make a statement that can be misinterpreted by others. Now ***** is not going to move forward unless for him Guru is not God. "
*Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20491-literal-meaning-of-gurbani-2.html*
*Another Gursikh’s comments*:“_In order to deabte this properly let us have the entire shabad from page”_
*Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/19100-nanak-is-guru-nanak-lord-himself-42.html*



*To das the above lines read like- don’t believe in some Bani and believe in some. It also reads that there are some Gur Waks or Bhatt Bani that is UNTRUE, NOT WORTH BELIEVING, or CORRUPT. It also read to das that all those Sikhs are blind who believe all the Bani to be True as IT IS. It also read to das that when Guru is telling one thing again and again that Guru and God are no different, one can’t believe it as it is Hindu faith. These lines also read to das that a mortal one has the capacity to debate*(A debate is an arguement. People decide and discuss on differences. We compare, when we debate) *over Gurbani Which(BANI) is written by Immortals(GURU). Because True Guru never call Himself God(*seems like people are expecting Guru to state'I AM GOD'*), we can't say Guru is God, even if He is telling the same truth in so many other ways.*


*Guru tells us:*

AMg 52*Page 52 *​ 

isrIrwgu mhlw 5 ]* Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl: *​ 

sMq jnhu suix BweIho CUtnu swcY nwie ] *O Saints, O Siblings of Destiny, listen: release comes only through the True Name. *​ 

gur ky crx sryvxy qIrQ hir kw nwau ] *Worship the Feet of the Guru. Let the Name of the Lord be your sacred shrine of pilgrimage. *​ 

AwgY drgih mMnIAih imlY inQwvy Qwau ]1] *Hereafter, you shall be honored in the Court of the Lord; there, even the homeless find a home. ||1|| *​ 

BweI ry swcI siqgur syv ] *O Siblings of Destiny, service to the True Guru alone is True.*​ 

siqgur quTY pweIAY pUrn AlK AByv ]1] rhwau ] *When the True Guru is pleased, we obtain the Perfect, Unseen, Unknowable Lord. ||1||Pause|| *​ 

siqgur ivthu vwirAw ijin idqw scu nwau ] *I am a sacrifice to the True Guru, who has bestowed the True Name. *​ 

Anidnu scu slwhxw scy ky gux gwau ] *Night and day, I praise the True One; I sing the Glorious Praises of the True One.*​ 

scu Kwxw scu pYnxw scy scw nwau ]2] *True is the food, and true are the clothes, of those who chant the True Name of the True One. ||2|| *​ 

swis igrwis n ivsrY sPlu mUriq guru Awip ] *With each breath and morsel of food, do not forget the Guru, the Embodiment of Fulfillment.*​ 

gur jyvfu Avru n idseI AwT phr iqsu jwip ] *None is seen to be as great as the Guru. Meditate on Him twenty-four hours a day.*​ 

ndir kry qw pweIAY scu nwmu guxqwis ]3] *As He casts His Glance of Grace, we obtain the True Name, the Treasure of Excellence. ||3|| *​ 

guru prmysru eyku hY sB mih rihAw smwie ] *The Guru and the Transcendent Lord are one and the same, pervading and permeating amongst all.*​ 

ijn kau pUrib iliKAw syeI nwmu iDAwie ] *Those who have such pre-ordained destiny, meditate on the Naam.*​ 

nwnk gur srxwgqI mrY n AwvY jwie ]4]30]100] *Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||*​ 


*In this Shabad Guru Ji is telling us that Guru and Parmesar are the same one, permeating everywhere.*​ 

*AND*​ 

AMg 49 *Page 49*​ 

isrIrwgu mhlw 5 ] *Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:*​ 


sMq jnhu imil BweIho scw nwmu smwil ] *Meet with the humble Saints, O Siblings of Destiny, and contemplate the True Name. *​ 

qosw bMDhu jIA kw AYQY EQY nwil ] *For the journey of the soul, gather those supplies which will go with you here and hereafter.*​ 

gur pUry qy pweIAY ApxI ndir inhwil ] *These are obtained from the Perfect Guru, when God bestows His Glance of Grace.*​ 

krim prwpiq iqsu hovY ijs no hOie dieAwlu ]1] *Those unto whom He is Merciful, receive His Grace. ||1||*​ 

myry mn gur jyvfu Avru n koie ] *O my mind, there is no other as great as the Guru. *​ 

dUjw Qwau n ko suJY gur myly scu soie ]1] rhwau ] *I cannot imagine any other place. The Guru leads me to meet the True Lord. ||1||Pause||*​ 

sgl pdwrQ iqsu imly ijin guru ifTw jwie ] *Those who go to see the Guru obtain all treasures. *​ 

gur crxI ijn mnu lgw sy vfBwgI mwie ] *Those whose minds are attached to the Guru's Feet are very fortunate, O my mother. *​ 

guru dwqw smrQu guru guru sB mih rihAw smwie ] *The Guru is the Giver, the Guru is All-powerful. The Guru is All-pervading, contained amongst all.*​ 

guru prmysru pwrbRhmu guru fubdw ley qrwie ]2] *The Guru is the Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God. The Guru lifts up and saves those who are drowning. ||2||*​ 


ikqu muiK guru swlwhIAY krx kwrx smrQu ] *How shall I praise the Guru, the All-powerful Cause of causes?*​ 

sy mQy inhcl rhy ijn guir DwirAw hQu ] *Those, upon whose foreheads the Guru has placed His Hand, remain steady and stable.*​ 

guir AMimRq nwmu pIAwilAw jnm mrn kw pQu ] *The Guru has led me to drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; He has released me from the cycle of birth and death.*​ 

guru prmysru syivAw BY BMjnu duK lQu ]3] *I serve the Guru, the Transcendent Lord, the Dispeller of fear; my suffering has been taken away. ||3|| *​ 

siqguru gihr gBIru hY suK swgru AGKMfu ] *The True Guru is the Deep and Profound Ocean of Peace, the Destroyer of sin.*​ 

ijin guru syivAw Awpxw jmdUq n lwgY fMfu ] *For those who serve their Guru, there is no punishment at the hands of the Messenger of Death. *​ 

gur nwil quil n lgeI Koij ifTw bRhmMfu ] *There is none to compare with the Guru; I have searched and looked throughout the entire universe.*​ 

nwmu inDwnu siqguir dIAw suKu nwnk mn mih mMfu ]4]20]90] *The True Guru has bestowed the Treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord. O Nanak, the mind is filled with peace. ||4||20||90||*​ 


*In the above shabad Guru Ji is calling Guru – Parbrahm in a literal sense. *
*AND*

AMg 802 *Page 802*​ 

rwgu iblwvlu mhlw 5 Gru 2 XwnVIey kY Gir gwvxw *Raag Bilaaval, Fifth Mehl, Second House, To Be Sung To The Tune Of Yaan-Ree-Ay:*​ 

<> siqgur pRswid ] *One Universal** Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: *​ 

mY min qyrI tyk myry ipAwry mY min qyrI tyk ] *You are the Support of my mind, O my Beloved, You are the Support of my mind. *​ 

Avr isAwxpw ibrQIAw ipAwry rwKn kau qum eyk ]1] rhwau ] *All other clever tricks are useless, O Beloved; You alone are my Protector. ||1||Pause||*​ 

siqguru pUrw jy imlY ipAwry so jnu hoq inhwlw ] *One who meets with the Perfect True Guru, O Beloved, that humble person is enraptured.*​ 

gur kI syvw so kry ipAwry ijs no hoie dieAwlw ] *He alone serves the Guru, O Beloved, unto whom the Lord becomes merciful. *​ 

sPl mUriq gurdyau suAwmI srb klw BrpUry ] *Fruitful is the form of the Divine Guru, O Lord and Master; He is overflowing with all powers. *​ 

nwnk guru pwrbRhmu prmysru sdw sdw hjUry ]1] *O Nanak, the Guru is the Supreme Lord God, the Transcendent Lord; He is ever-present, forever and ever. ||1||*​ 

suix suix jIvw soie iqnw kI ijn@ Apunw pRBu jwqw ] *I live by hearing, hearing of those who know their God. *​ 

hir nwmu ArwDih nwmu vKwxih hir nwmy hI mnu rwqw ] *They contemplate the Lord's Name, they chant the Lord's Name, and their minds are imbued with the Lord's Name. *​ 

syvku jn kI syvw mwgY pUrY krim kmwvw ] *I am Your servant; I beg to serve Your humble servants. By the karma of perfect destiny, I do this. *​ 

nwnk kI bynµqI suAwmI qyry jn dyKxu pwvw ]2] *This is Nanak's prayer: O my Lord and Master, may I obtain the Blessed Vision of Your humble servants. ||2||*​ 

vfBwgI sy kwFIAih ipAwry sMqsMgiq ijnw vwso ] *They are said to be very fortunate, O Beloved, who who dwell in the Society of the Saints. *​ 

AMimRq nwmu ArwDIAY inrmlu mnY hovY prgwso ] *They contemplate the Immaculate, Ambrosial Naam, and their minds are illuminated. *​ 

jnm mrx duKu kwtIAY ipAwry cUkY jm kI kwxy ] *The pains of birth and death are eradicated, O Beloved, and the fear of the Messenger of Death is ended. *​ 

iqnw prwpiq drsnu nwnk jo pRB Apxy Bwxy ]3] *They alone obtain the Blessed Vision of this Darshan, O Nanak, who are pleasing to their God. ||3||*​ 

aUc Apwr byAMq suAwmI kauxu jwxY gux qyry ] ​ 

*O my lofty, incomparable and infinite Lord and Master, who can know Your Glorious Virtues?*​ 


gwvqy auDrih suxqy auDrih ibnsih pwp Gnyry ] *Those who sing them are saved, and those who listen to them are saved; all their sins are erased.*​ 

psU pryq mugD kau qwry pwhn pwir auqwrY ] *You save the beasts, demons and fools, and even stones are carried across. *​ 

nwnk dws qyrI srxweI sdw sdw bilhwrY ]4]1]4] ​ 

*Slave Nanak seeks Your Sanctuary; he is forever and ever a sacrifice to You. ||4||1||4||*​ 
*In this Shabad again Guru Ji is showing us the same- there is no difference between Guru and God.*



*For 40/50 years, Gurbani-as IT IS, has cleared all my doubts. I kept my eyes closed and looked at the World through Guru’s eyes. I never felt a need to disect Gur Bani. I have thousands of friends, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Christians, in India and Overseas, who have the same belief as I have.*
*None of them who read Gurbani ever suggested me to practice this 'disection process' or 'Dont believe Bani in Literal Sense' theory. All believe in Bani –AS IT IS.*

*Das always see Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s Insignia in each and every word of Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Stamped it with Guru- Brahmgyani Ki Gat Brahmgyani Jaaney- das vichara Guru da Pallaa phar ke kharaa(das is only holding Guru’s scarf), Guru knows the Gurprasaad.*

*Gurbani is written for everybody, no mediator is needed to explain that. Guru, the immortal is talking to us, we dont need mortals describing it to us if it is true or not true. *

*Metaphors used in Gurbani are all taken from regular human society- NOTHING IS OFF PLANET. Everybody can understand the meaning of the mataphors easily. *

*Practicing Humility is most important for a seeker. In Gurbani Guru Ji states that we should even avoid calling ourselves a seeker. One has to be totally steeped in Humility, so how one can expect that any Saint will say-'I AM GOD'. Guru tells us:*

*ਸਗਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਮਹਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪ੍ਰਧਾਨੁ ॥ Among all persons, the supreme person is the one*
*ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਮਿਟੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥ who gives up his egotistical pride in the Company of the Holy.*
*ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਜੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਨੀਚਾ ॥ One who sees himself as lowly,*
*ਸੋਊ ਗਨੀਐ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਊਚਾ ॥ shall be accounted as the highest of all.*
*ਜਾ ਕਾ ਮਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਸਗਲ ਕੀ ਰੀਨਾ ॥ One whose mind is the dust of all,*
*ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਨਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਚੀਨਾ ॥ recognizes the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, in each and every heart.*
*ਮਨ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਤੇ ਬੁਰਾ ਮਿਟਾਨਾ ॥ One who eradicates cruelty from within his own mind,*
*ਪੇਖੈ ਸਗਲ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਾਜਨਾ ॥ looks upon all the world as his friend.*
*ਸੂਖ ਦੂਖ ਜਨ ਸਮ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੇਤਾ ॥ One who looks upon pleasure and pain as one and the same,*
*ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਨਹੀ ਲੇਪਾ ॥੬॥ O Nanak, is not affected by sin or virtue. ||6||*

*We mortals have no capacity to debate on Guru’s Word. Guru is Immortal, we are mortals:*

*Guru Ji tells:*


AMg 310 *Page 310*​ 


pauVI ] *Pauree:*​ 


scu scw siqguru Amru hY ijsu AMdir hir auir DwirAw ] *Truest of the True is the Immortal True Guru; He has enshrined the Lord deep within His heart.*​ 


scu scw siqguru purKu hY ijin kwmu k®oDu ibKu mwirAw ] *Truest of the True is the True Guru, the Primal Being, who has conquered sexual desire, anger and corruption.*​ 


jw ifTw pUrw siqgurU qW AMdrhu mnu swDwirAw ] *When I see the Perfect True Guru, then deep within, my mind is comforted and consoled.*​ 


bilhwrI gur Awpxy sdw sdw Guim vwirAw ] *I am a sacrifice to my True Guru; I am devoted and dedicated to Him, forever and ever.*​ 


gurmuiK ijqw mnmuiK hwirAw ]17] *A Gurmukh wins the battle of life whereas a self-willed manmukh loses it. ||17||*​ 

*Guru Ji is explaining in this Shabad that Satguru is immortal.*







*Just to collect information on this issue**:*
*Das want to know how many more people out there think the need of-*

*1. **CAREFULLNESS WHILE READING GURBANI- IS IT TRUE OR NOT(!), *
*2. **CAREFULLNESS WHILE BELIEVING GUR WAK- IS IT CORRUPT OR BELIEVABLE(!),*
*3. **KNOWING THAT BHATT BANI IS NOT GURBANI, AVOID THAT(!),*
*4. **KNOWING ALL THAT BANI THAT YOU CONSIDER AVOIDING(!),*
*5. **CONSIDERING THAT THE LITERAL MEANING LEADS TO CONFUSION AND WRONG BELIEFS, WE NEED MORTALS TO DESCRIBE THE BANI'S CORRECT MEANING WHICH(BANI) IS WRITTEN AND COMPILED BY IMMORTALS(GURU/SAINT/GOD REALIZED)(!), *
*6. **UNDERSTANDING THAT LITERAL MEANING AND MATAPHORS CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY COMMON PEOPLE, THAT UNDERSTANDING IS ONLY A PROPERTY OF A FEW SELECTED ONES, *
*7. **FAITH THAT THE MEANING IN THE METAPHOR IS DIFFERENT THAN THE MEANING IN REAL,*
*8. **KNOWING THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE(MORTAL) OUT THERE BETTER THAN OUR GURU, WHO CAN DEBATE OVER GURBANI AND TELL US THE REAL MEANING, WHICH OUR GURU(IMMORTAL BEING) IS UNABLE TO SEND ACROSS,*
*exist.*




swD kI soBw swD bin AweI ]*The glory of the Holy people is theirs alone;*nwnk swD pRB Bydu n BweI ]8]7]*O Nanak, there is no difference between the Holy people and God. ||8||7|| **and*nwnk bRhm igAwnI Awip prmysur ]6]*O Nanak, the God-conscious being is Himself the Supreme Lord God. ||6||.* .




*Thanks and Please Please Please give comment- positive or negative. Needed for a very good purpose. PM me if needed. Please share this on the other Sikh and non-Sikh forums as well. I will be making additions to it, as I find more information. Thanks again. *


*Tuhada das*
*Yograj*





Garbani Translations are provided for the convienenace of non-punjabi knowing readers and source of the translations is- SIKHITOTHEMAX.COM


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## spnadmin

Pyramid ji

I am not ready to respond yet. Only to say that today is a GREAT day on the SPN forum. Why? Because this is the second time in 5 minutes that I am reading commentary that will have me thinking an entire day or more. 

Do not give up on this thread. You have given us some Gurbani to read and some questions to process carefully. 

I feel like we are in a study group. Thank you. See also Dalsingh's comments on another thread. They work really well -- comparative questions -- together.

Thank you again from those of us who want something to wrestle with so we can grow. We may even disagree with you -- but the effort to think about things is what matters.


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## pk70

* aad0002 ji*

* Bhattan dee bani was compiled in GGS Ji under the authority of Fifth Nanak ji?*
*Your question is invalid.*
*Rgds*


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## Sikh80

aad0002 said:


> Pyramid ji
> 
> Thank you again from those of us who want something to wrestle with so we can grow. We may even disagree with you -- but the effort to think about things is what matters.



What is the meaning of we in your above line? On whose behalf are you stating it in plurals.?


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## spnadmin

Sikh80ji

Anyone who agrees with the statement. Would you like me to change we to something else?


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## spnadmin

pk70 said:


> * aad0002 ji*
> 
> * Bhattan dee bani was compiled in GGS Ji under the authority of Fifth Nanak ji?*
> *Your question is invalid.*
> *Rgds*


Pk 70 ji

With all due respect, there is no such thing as a question that is invalid. We learn from asking questions. Also, did I ask a question? I don't think so. The question "Why?" was rhetorical -- only a question put to myself.

What would you like me to modify in my remarks?


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## Archived_Member1

> *1. **CAREFULLNESS WHILE READING GURBANI- IS IT TRUE OR NOT(!), *
> *2. **CAREFULLNESS WHILE BELIEVING GUR WAK- IS IT CORRUPT OR BELIEVABLE(!),*
> *3. **KNOWING THAT BHATT BANI IS NOT GURBANI, AVOID THAT(!),*
> *4. **KNOWING ALL THAT BANI THAT YOU CONSIDER AVOIDING(!),*
> *5. **CONSIDERING THAT THE LITERAL MEANING LEADS TO CONFUSION AND WRONG BELIEFS, WE NEED MORTALS TO DESCRIBE THE BANI'S CORRECT MEANING WHICH(BANI) IS WRITTEN AND COMPILED BY IMMORTALS(GURU/SAINT/GOD REALIZED)(!), *
> *6. **UNDERSTANDING THAT LITERAL MEANING AND MATAPHORS CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY COMMON PEOPLE, THAT UNDERSTANDING IS ONLY A PROPERTY OF A FEW SELECTED ONES, *
> *7. **FAITH THAT THE MEANING IN THE METAPHOR IS DIFFERENT THAN THE MEANING IN REAL,*
> *8. **KNOWING THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE(MORTAL) OUT THERE BETTER THAN OUR GURU, WHO CAN DEBATE OVER GURBANI AND TELL US THE REAL MEANING, WHICH OUR GURU(IMMORTAL BEING) IS UNABLE TO SEND ACROSS,*
> *exist.*


keeping in mind that i am new and have very little knowledge of these things...

some of your questions beg answers from the heart, not the mind (MAN).

i believe with my whole heart that gurbani can NOT be corrupt, it's simply not possible.  God spoke through the mouth of Guru and Bhagat alike and all must be considered gurbani.  

SGGS ji has not had a single word changed since Guru Gobind Singh ji put his stamp on it.  even before that, changing of a single word of gurbani was enough to earn huge punishment (see story of Ram Rai).

i think that we understand gurbani as per our current spiritual state.  if we are beginners (like me), we will understand the most simple things, the most obviously beautiful, the least complex first.  as we grow in sikhi, we will gain more and more knowledge from the same words.  we will understand deeper meanings and gain more understanding.  this is why it's necessary to study/read/recite/listen to gurbani every day.  to help us grow on this path.

every person will understand according to his ability.  some claim to understand better than others and use that to their advantage (fake babas/sants/etc).  in my limited experience, gurbani reveals itself to us exactly at the right time, just when we need it most.    no fake baba can explain anything better than my Guru, who always answers my questions when i am in need. 


hope this helps.  sorry i can't contribute anything more eloquent.


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## Sikh80

aad0002 said:


> Sikh80ji
> 
> Anyone who agrees with the statement. Would you like me to change we to something else?



Kindly use singular to make the things simple. Yes, you can always use I instead of 'we'.  You may not change it though as you have clarified.


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## Archived_Member1

Sikh80 said:


> Kindly use singular to make the things simple. Yes, you can always use I instead of 'we'.  You may not change it though as you have clarified.



sometimes "we" makes more sense in the context of the post.  sometimes  are helpful to show mood/intent.

perhaps it's best to allow us all to write as we feel most comfortable, as long as we're not causing anyone any harm...  rather than making rules about grammar or icon usage?

just a thought.  sorry if it's offensive to you.


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## Sikh80

aad0002 said:


> Pk 70 ji
> 
> With all due respect, there is no such thing as a question that is invalid. We learn from asking questions. Also, did I ask a question? I don't think so. The question "Why?" was rhetorical -- only a question put to myself.
> 
> What would you like me to modify in my remarks?



When question asked tantamount to 'Is SGGS not Guru'?; it is _invalid _and unreasonable;the Thread title should have been changed by the moderators.There is strong presumption of mockery in the title of thread and any moderator should not encourage these kind of  funny titles.

Moderator should always state on this forum if the opinion expressed is that as 
A member
 or
A moderator,

Obviously, if it is feasible. This will help me to appreciate as to what  Mod. wants to say.


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## Sikh80

jasleen_kaur said:


> sometimes "we" makes more sense in the context of the post.  sometimes  are helpful to show mood/intent.
> 
> perhaps it's best to allow us all to write as we feel most comfortable, as long as we're not causing anyone any harm...  rather than making rules about grammar or icon usage?
> 
> just a thought.  sorry if it's offensive to you.




I am addressing to an individual here and not to all. 

You are free to feel the way you like. You could have even done without putting my comments in highlighted portion.


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## spnadmin

Sik80 ji

Speaking as mod, a forum member who is not a mod started the thread and gave the title to the thread.  No moderator encouraged or discouraged the title. This forum is popular because we do not censor people unless there is outright breaking of forum rules.

You are free to state your opinions. And you  have done so. Others have to feel free to do so as well. That is what discussion is about - sharing ideas and points of view. 

Speaking again as mod -- Questions are not invalid. Without questions there is no discovery. 

Speaking again as mod -- Who should be allowed to speak? Who should be silent? What are the rules for deciding that?  Who should decide?


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## Sardara123

*About use of the word 'WE':*
Advise had been given to Aad0002 Ji to change we to I.

It is funny and it is clear partiality:

Our dear member SSMDCX, always use word 'we' instead of 'I'. I couldn't find anybody advising him/her to change his/her 'WE' to 'I'.


			
				SSMDCX said:
			
		

> We Have Told You Before And Will Continue To Tell You Forever - Everything Else Is Perishable


 
link to see his/her original 'we': 

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/15034-vaheguru-is-gurmantar.html

WHY AAD JI cant or shouldn't use the word 'we'?

*About the Title:*
Title goes fine with the matter being discussed. Pyramid Ji has provided REAL statements from REAL HUMAN BEINGS(I hope my information is correct that only humans can type on computers), provided valid links to the statements as well. These people are clearly stating that we should not use Bhatt Bani or certain Guru Waks to support our understanding of Gurmat.

If it was me neech moorakh ever thought of writting this - my title would have been- 'ARE CERTAIN GURU WAKS, SANT BANI, BHAGAT BANI AND BHATT BANI in SGGS JI- NOT GURU?' or - 'IS ONLY SELECTED BANI IN SGGS JI- GURU?', again it is me moorakh talking.

I Like it the way Pyramid Ji has done it. I dont see a problem in the title. It makes the brain juices flow.


*Pyramid Ji,*
BTW, Pyramid Ji I will reply to your post after a few months, I am leaving for a long trip today. I just couldn't stop myself from adding my two cents. As you advised me earlier, I need to practice on Sanjam more and more. Thanks for everything.
Very Good Post.
Good Job.


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## Pyramid

Thankyou everybody for your comments and concerns.

Aad Ji, I wont give up, unless bulaava comes(I die)- I am 70+    . Or Website close down, oops (I am not wishing for it please dont take it wrong). Or the thread is deleted(a very very high possibility).

Just a request to all Mods and Admin, If by any chance you change the Title, Please PM me about this. I will really appreciate it.


 to all.

Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## spnadmin

This is a thread that is provoking emotions. Which means that it is of deep importance to everyone here. 

I will keep an eye on things. Pyrmaid ji continue with your concise and thoughtful insights. They won't be deleted. It is OK Sikh80 ji to keep asking me to reflect on my role and language. Sardara ji -- enjoy your trip, and when you return bring back new wisdom. Jasleen ji  you are writing so many inspiring things in these past two days - I read them with concentration and enjoyment. 

We, oops, sorry, I,  don't think we (is that right?) would say anything other than we care about this subject. And so we are getting excited. Speaking in earnest.

Questions are a sign of true faith. Guruji is bringing us together for this conversation.


----------



## pk70

Sardara123 said:


> *About the Title:*
> Title goes fine with the matter being discussed. Pyramid Ji has provided REAL statements from REAL HUMAN BEINGS(I hope my information is correct that only humans can type on computers), provided valid links to the statements as well. These people are clearly stating that we should not use Bhatt Bani or certain Guru Waks to support our understanding of Gurmat.
> 
> If it was me neech moorakh ever thought of writting this - my title would have been- 'ARE CERTAIN GURU WAKS, SANT BANI, BHAGAT BANI AND BHATT BANI in SGGS JI- NOT GURU?' or - 'IS ONLY SELECTED BANI IN SGGS JI- GURU?', again it is me moorakh talking.
> 
> sardara123 jio
> 
> *That is not what any of the SPN sevaks (who do not beieve incarnation of God ) said. Show me a post. Now you love to discuss Bhat Bani if it is Gurbani or not!! Amazing stand.  You Keep using word" neech for yourself" even when you accuse other people of something they didnt!!!!! Any way I wish you the best for your break !*


----------



## Pyramid

jasleen_kaur said:


> keeping in mind that i am new and have very little knowledge of these things...
> 
> some of your questions beg answers from the heart, not the mind (MAN).
> 
> i believe with my whole heart that gurbani can NOT be corrupt, it's simply not possible. God spoke through the mouth of Guru and Bhagat alike and all must be considered gurbani.
> 
> SGGS ji has not had a single word changed since Guru Gobind Singh ji put his stamp on it. even before that, changing of a single word of gurbani was enough to earn huge punishment (see story of Ram Rai).
> 
> i think that we understand gurbani as per our current spiritual state. if we are beginners (like me), we will understand the most simple things, the most obviously beautiful, the least complex first. as we grow in sikhi, we will gain more and more knowledge from the same words. we will understand deeper meanings and gain more understanding. this is why it's necessary to study/read/recite/listen to gurbani every day. to help us grow on this path.
> 
> every person will understand according to his ability. some claim to understand better than others and use that to their advantage (fake babas/sants/etc). in my limited experience, gurbani reveals itself to us exactly at the right time, just when we need it most.  no fake baba can explain anything better than my Guru, who always answers my questions when i am in need.
> 
> 
> hope this helps. sorry i can't contribute anything more eloquent.


 
Thankyou much for a nice reply. You did a good job.
Guru is THE BEST.

ਜੋਤੀ ਹੂ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਜਾਪਦਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਗੁਰ ਬੂਝ ਨ ਪਾਇ ॥
jothee hoo prabh jaapadhaa bin sathagur boojh n paae ||
Through His Light, God is revealed. Without the True Guru, understanding is not obtained.


Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## Astroboy

*Quoted by Pyramid*

nwnk gur srxwgqI mrY n AwvY jwie ]4]30]100] *Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||*​

*In this Shabad, Guru Ji is telling us that Guru and Parmesar are the same one, permeating everywhere.*​

Pyramid Ji,

While I agree with your above-mentioned statement, there is a fine query that I need to know (from you) - 
nwnk gur srxwgqI mrY n AwvY jwie ]4]30]100] *Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||*​
Nanak seeking the Guru's sanctuary. I can only come to the conclusion that Guru is the Celestial Sound Current which is called Shabad/Bani/Naam :
​
Shabad Guru surti dhun chelaa: The Shabad is my Guru. By focusing consciousness on this celestial sound or Shabad, I become a desciple (sggs 943).


Shabde upjai amrit Bani gurmukh aakh sunavaniyaa: The Ambrosial Word of the Guru’s Bani emanates from the Shabad. The Spiritual Being (_Gurmukh_) narrates it and preaches to the world (sggs 125).

From the above-two lines, it can be understood that Nanak never called himself Guru. So why was there a change in understanding about what Guru is from the time of Guru Angad to the Bhatts ?​


----------



## spnadmin

These are good questions -- Nam Jap I am very serious in saying this. 

There is a context that I myself, personally, need to keep in mind when following the discourse and making up my own mind -- that the transcendence of God and the immanence of God have to be kept in balance. After thinking about your questions, I am wondering if the Bhatts were balancing these ideas themselves in their poetry.

So I await responses. This should discussion should take a very interesting turn.


----------



## Pyramid

namjap said:


> *Quoted by Pyramid*
> 
> nwnk gur srxwgqI mrY n AwvY jwie ]4]30]100] *Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||*​
> 
> *In this Shabad, Guru Ji is telling us that Guru and Parmesar are the same one, permeating everywhere.*​
> 
> Pyramid Ji,
> 
> While I agree with your above-mentioned statement, there is a fine query that I need to know (from you) -
> nwnk gur srxwgqI mrY n AwvY jwie ]4]30]100] *Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||*​
> Nanak seeking the Guru's sanctuary. I can only come to the conclusion that Guru is the Celestial Sound Current which is called Shabad/Bani/Naam :
> 
> 
> Shabad Guru surti dhun chelaa: The Shabad is my Guru. By focusing consciousness on this celestial sound or Shabad, I become a desciple (sggs 943).​
> 
> Shabde upjai amrit Bani gurmukh aakh sunavaniyaa: The Ambrosial Word of the Guru’s Bani emanates from the Shabad. The Spiritual Being (_Gurmukh_) narrates it and preaches to the world (sggs 125).​
> 
> From the above-two lines, it can be understood that Nanak never called himself Guru. So why was there a change in understanding about what Guru is from the time of Guru Angad to the Bhatts ?​


 
namjap Ji, 

When did this happen that Truth-Sat started to change forms? Guru Ji tells: Truth is for ever. IN PEACE. formless. 

Answer to your query: as you asked from me , has to be my answer. 


> (from you )


By the way, what is the punishment if I say - I dont know the answer- as there is not any answer what so ever.
I clearly said in my very first post in this thread- I dont compare one ang of Guru ji with another. I am not sure what is confusing you namjap Ji. 
Guru is the same ONE GOD
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. ONE GURU all the way, every word of Guru Granth Sahib. Same concept is explained everywhere in different ways. I dont think you even tried to read my starting post in this thread. I have cleared this already that I see the same Guru in every word of Guru Ji. Even the title explains I dont see it as- bhatt bani or this Guru's Wak or that Guru's Wak. ALL BANI IS GURU JI, that's why I titled it-Is bhatt bani not Guru. I raised these concerns because people are separating Bani based on the composer(physical), and then creating differences. For me, composer is ONE AND THE SAME- WAHEGURU/GOD/GURU/SATGURU/SAINT/ALLAH/NARAYAN and any other name one can think of the supreme authority- Paarbrahm. All that is said is 'TRUTH'. Eka Bani Ek Gur-Satguru ki bani sat sat kar janahu gursikho har kartaa aap muho kadhaaei.

Guru is Perfect, Pura Guru, Paarbrahm. He knows what has to go where. He put it together for us. I cannot even think of comparing bani. For me all have to be obeyed with head down. Comparing one Ang of Guru Ji with another will be 'debating'- I dont do that, SORRY
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. This is not my job to think that GURU ANGAD DEV JI SAID SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN BHATTS- If I even think to start thinking like this, I must die instead and get lost in some hell. Satguru Ki agyaa Sat Sat- Ikoankaar-all the way through.

For das, Only Guru knows, das is nothing. I know nothing. I repeat myself again(as I did in my first post on this thread): I keep my eyes closed and look at this world through Guru Ji's eyes only
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Living and sharing the Sat.


And please you dont need to agree with me on anything to ask a question, namjap Ji. This worm can be questioned, scrutinized and punished without showing him a sugar candy, gulaam haazar hai.

Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## Pyramid

aad0002 said:


> These are good questions -- Nam Jap I am very serious in saying this.
> 
> There is a context that I myself, personally, need to keep in mind when following the discourse and making up my own mind -- that the transcendence of God and the immanence of God have to be kept in balance. After thinking about your questions, I am wondering if the Bhatts were balancing these ideas themselves in their poetry.
> 
> So I await responses. This should discussion should take a very interesting turn.


 
aad Ji,
Keep reading Gurbani(stay connected to Guru Ji) without indulging into comparisons- He(Gurbani), who is the Creator(God/Nirankaar); will clear all your doubts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





(doubts create comparisons and then the fear of imbalance). Hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhyaa naal. There is nothing that is- my mind/I think- it is all an illusion. Sabh gobind hai sabh gobind hai gobind bin nahi koi.
Bani is dhur ki bani- It is not something that a sansaari(worldly individual) sat down with his/her pen and pencil and created a piece of poetry after sorting out certain worldly concepts in his mind that is full of cleverness and worldly intellegence. It is Sant ka Bachan: It is as it came, it is pure, way beyond this sansarik manua(mind lost in worldly thoughts). Dhur ki bani aaee tin sagalee chint mitaaee- sadh ka bachan- akath kee kathaa

Gur ka bachan basay jee naalay.( aad Ji, if you have any problem recognizing these shabads, please let me know: next time I will post whole shabad with translations.
Gavayaa sunyaa tina ka thaaen pavay jin satguru ki agayaa sat sat kar maanee- otherwise it is useless.

There is only ONE- ONE does not need to worry about balance- it is already in balance and balancing everything else that also is He Himself- ONE. 


Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## spnadmin

Pyramid ji,

Let me explain what I was trying to say and do with my comments. My remarks were not about God. They were about the discussion. 



Pyramid said:


> aad Ji,
> Keep reading Gurbani(stay connected to Guru Ji) without indulging into comparisons- He(Gurbani), who is the Creator(God/Nirankaar); will clear all your doubts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (doubts create comparisons and then the fear of imbalance). Hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhyaa naal. There is nothing that is- my mind/I think- it is all an illusion. Sabh gobind hai sabh gobind hai gobind bin nahi koi.
> 
> Pyramid ji -- I know what you are saying here and with an embarrassed grin I concede that maybe I did not approach this debate with wisdom.
> 
> In my own relationship with He/Shabad Guru/ Creator who is Nrankaar -- in my own private world -- I really don't spend much time at all thinking about comparisons. My understanding just jumps into my head and it is not problem. I am not bothered. I don't pick it apart. It doesn't matter at all because He  is there and I know He is there. Explaining it to myself would be ridiculous. I go with the flow. Analysis doesn't come into it.
> 
> The question I raised was more about this discussion where there are differences. How to build a bridge in the discussion so that what you say, what someone else says, what is in Guruji, what is not in Guruji, what someone thinks is there in Guruji but not in Guruji's words, can be compared and contrasted. All of those different voices and ideas. A Gurbani transponder where messages are received, informaiton is sorted out, and then a reply is made.
> 
> And really  I asked for my own benefit so I can sort out what all sides are saying. And understand how they are the same and how they are diferent. I have already made up my own mind about Shabd Guru-- for now. That is not a problem here. *Because I have been keeping my opinion about Him out of the way and out of the discussion. *
> 
> Bani is dhur ki bani- It is not something that a sansaari(worldly individual) sat down with his/her pen and pencil and created a piece of poetry after sorting out certain worldly concepts in his mind that is full of cleverness and worldly intellegence. It is Sant ka Bachan: It is as it came, it is pure, way beyond this sansarik manua(mind lost in worldly thoughts). Dhur ki bani aaee tin sagalee chint mitaaee- sadh ka bachan- akath kee kathaa
> 
> This paragraph above -- nothing could be closer than to my own thoughts.
> 
> Gur ka bachan basay jee naalay.( aad Ji, if you have any problem recognizing these shabads, please let me know: next time I will post whole shabad with translations.
> Gavayaa sunyaa tina ka thaaen pavay jin satguru ki agayaa sat sat kar maanee- otherwise it is useless.
> 
> There is only ONE- ONE does not need to worry about balance- I have to worry about balance in the thread. It is in my future as moderator  :}8-: ji. It is already in balance and balancing everything else that also is He Himself- ONE.  YEs I agree. Don't worry about that. I agree.
> 
> 
> Tuhada Das
> Yograj



Sorry for stirring you up. I did not mean to do that.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Nanak Ji says..Ros na keejey..UTTAR DEejay.....
Then again..Kichh sunneah,,kicchh khaeayeh....

Dont be UPSET..give the ANSWERS...
Listen.....(then) say something....

This is as clear as can be about the legitimacy of "Questions"...why ???
Sikhi and Gurmat is ALL about ASKING QUESTIONS...the entire WORLD asked Questions..( Sidh Gost is one example)...and GURU NANAK JI ANSWERED them ALL..from 1469-1708 and SGGS continues to provide these answers TODAY and Forever.
To DENY the right to question..and REFUSE to ANSWER are anti-Gurmat.

Peace and Love towards ALL

Gyani Jarnail Singh


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

Panthic Weekly: First Dasam Granth Seminar Held in North America

Sacramento, CA (KP) – In response to imprudent campaigns that have arisen in different parts of the world to malign the bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, California Sangat recently organized the first ever International Seminar on Dasam Granth Sahib in Sacramento.


----------



## Pyramid

aad0002 said:


> Pyramid ji,
> 
> Let me explain what I was trying to say and do with my comments. My remarks were not about God. They were about the discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for stirring you up. I did not mean to do that.


 
aad Ji,
Thankyou.
You havn't stirred up anything. We all are under this thread for disscussing- Is this Ok to accept all that is being said in these statements:


			
				Pyramid said:
			
		

> *A very highly regarded, knowledgeable Gusikh telling a new Gursikh*: “With all due respect I urge you not to take a a few Sikhs' blind theory as a true Sikh tenent. What they are doing on this site they just select a few Guru waak or some Bhatt bani to prove their case that guru is God.”
> *Source: (Literal Meaning of Gurbani)http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20491-literal-meaning-of-gurbani-2.html*
> *Another Gursikh telling a Gursikh*: "I am first and foremost a Sikh Historian who has studied patetrns and behavior within Sikhism. This concept of thinking Guru's are God is not new and emerges from time to time and is a hangover of our Hindu past."
> *Source: (Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.)http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/19100-nanak-is-guru-nanak-lord-himself-43.html*
> *Another Gursikh Telling a Gursikh*: ""Gur Parmeshar eko jaan". A true Guru will never say he is God but sometimes the Guru is left with no choice and for the sake of progress he will make a statement that can be misinterpreted by others. Now ***** is not going to move forward unless for him Guru is not God. "
> *Source: (Literal Meaning of Gurbani)http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20491-literal-meaning-of-gurbani-2.html*
> *Another Gursikh’s comments*:“_In order to deabte this properly let us have the entire shabad from page”_
> *Source: (Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.)http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/19100-nanak-is-guru-nanak-lord-himself-42.html*


 
Which all apeared to me to be anti gurmat. So I gave my read and raised concerns. There has to be opposition there(a very strong one), I accept all of it. There has to be some support, I accept all of that too- All is Guru Hukam.

About building bridges: Guru sahib has declared that there is nothing common in the thinking of a sansaari and a bhagat. 
If we want to become a bhagat, we need to accept this VERY SOUR TRUTH:

Bhagtaa te sansaareeaa jorr kadey na aayayaa. Trying to build bridges between Gurmat and Manmatt is like accepting both, or like coming into an agreement: But two swords cannot be put in the same case. One is haumay, one is naam- Haumay naavay naal virodh hai doi na vasay ik thaaey.

Guru Arjan Dev Ji did not accept Mia Mir's(His best friend) offer when Chandoo tortured His Physical Abode, He accepted God's Will. He obeyed Guru Bachan.

*


			
				aad0002 said:
			
		


Because I have been keeping my opinion about Him out of the way and out of the discussion.

Click to expand...

* 
aad Ji, we cant have one mind for one dealing and another mind for another dealing. Guru Ji tells us- we need to have: Ik Man Ik Chit-24/7-365-FOREVER

The whole world does not agree on Ekoankaar: that's the beauty of His Creation. He only does whatever and whenever pleases to HIM.


Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## Pyramid

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Nanak Ji says..Ros na keejey..UTTAR DEejay.....
> Then again..Kichh sunneah,,kicchh khaeayeh....
> 
> Dont be UPSET..give the ANSWERS...
> Listen.....(then) say something....
> 
> This is as clear as can be about the legitimacy of "Questions"...why ???
> Sikhi and Gurmat is ALL about ASKING QUESTIONS...the entire WORLD asked Questions..( Sidh Gost is one example)...and GURU NANAK JI ANSWERED them ALL..from 1469-1708 and SGGS continues to provide these answers TODAY and Forever.
> To DENY the right to question..and REFUSE to ANSWER are anti-Gurmat.
> 
> Peace and Love towards ALL
> 
> Gyani Jarnail Singh


 

Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji,
Thankyou.

In whichever context you gave these comments:
REFUSE to ANSWER are anti-Gurmat.


Guru Ji nowhere says that it is anti gurmat to not answering questions.

Sant milay kuch suneay kaheeay   milay asant mast kar raheeay: IN VERY CLEAR WORDS(a metaphor is used here, a metaophor that any human society can understand) we are told that one can ignore everything that is coming from a manmateeaa, asant.

'Moorkhay naal na luggheeay' is another one.

Asking questions and answering them is a way we communicate. But Gurbani doesn't tell us to accept every question and answer every question of the world. We are not obligated to answer every question. 

Like Namjap's question is: 'Campare Guru Waks and tellme', why I indulge in such a practice that Guru Ji tells me not to. 
Guru is telling me: Satguru ki agyaa sat sat kar mano.

Contemplating on Gurbani is totally different than Questioning Guru Wak's Authenticity. 



Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## Pyramid

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Panthic Weekly: First Dasam Granth Seminar Held in North America
> 
> Sacramento, CA (KP) – In response to imprudent campaigns that have arisen in different parts of the world to malign the bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, California Sangat recently organized the first ever International Seminar on Dasam Granth Sahib in Sacramento.


 
Harjas Ji,

Thankyou.


----------



## Astroboy

Maybe someone else can answer the unanswerable question!!!
I wonder where's PK70, Bhagat Singh, Ekmusafir_Ajnabi and Sikh80!!!


----------



## Daanveer

Pyramid said:


> *Gurbani came from the True Source: Divine Lord. Gurbani is Gurprashaad. Guru Stamped it with word ‘GurPrasaad’ everywhere. Gurbani is compiled as a collection of Hymns collected from different Saints irrespective of color, cast, creed, time and religion. Jahangir wanted Guru Ji to delete Bani of other Saints from Granth Ji, But Guru Ji accepted to sit on the hot plate instead, let the opponents pour burning sand over His physical abode. *
> 
> 
> *Yesterday and today, das read a few very interesting comments on the net. Sharing with all to know everybody’s view:*
> *A very highly regarded, knowledgeable Gusikh telling a new Gursikh*: “With all due respect I urge you not to take a a few Sikhs' blind theory as a true Sikh tenent. What they are doing on this site they just select a few Guru waak or some Bhatt bani to prove their case that guru is God.”
> *Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20491-literal-meaning-of-gurbani-2.html*
> *Another Gursikh telling a Gursikh*: "I am first and foremost a Sikh Historian who has studied patetrns and behavior within Sikhism. This concept of thinking Guru's are God is not new and emerges from time to time and is a hangover of our Hindu past."
> *Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/19100-nanak-is-guru-nanak-lord-himself-43.html*
> *Another Gursikh Telling a Gursikh*: ""Gur Parmeshar eko jaan". A true Guru will never say he is God but sometimes the Guru is left with no choice and for the sake of progress he will make a statement that can be misinterpreted by others. Now ***** is not going to move forward unless for him Guru is not God. "
> *Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20491-literal-meaning-of-gurbani-2.html*
> *Another Gursikh’s comments*:“_In order to deabte this properly let us have the entire shabad from page”_
> *Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/19100-nanak-is-guru-nanak-lord-himself-42.html*
> 
> 
> 
> *To das the above lines read like- don’t believe in some Bani and believe in some. It also reads that there are some Gur Waks or Bhatt Bani that is UNTRUE, NOT WORTH BELIEVING, or CORRUPT. It also read to das that all those Sikhs are blind who believe all the Bani to be True as IT IS. It also read to das that when Guru is telling one thing again and again that Guru and God are no different, one can’t believe it as it is Hindu faith. These lines also read to das that a mortal one has the capacity to debate*(A debate is an arguement. People decide and discuss on differences. We compare, when we debate) *over Gurbani Which(BANI) is written by Immortals(GURU). Because True Guru never call Himself God(*seems like people are expecting Guru to state'I AM GOD'*), we can't say Guru is God, even if He is telling the same truth in so many other ways.*
> 
> 
> *Guru tells us:*
> 
> AMg 52*Page 52 *​
> 
> isrIrwgu mhlw 5 ]* Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl: *​
> 
> sMq jnhu suix BweIho CUtnu swcY nwie ] *O Saints, O Siblings of Destiny, listen: release comes only through the True Name. *​
> 
> gur ky crx sryvxy qIrQ hir kw nwau ] *Worship the Feet of the Guru. Let the Name of the Lord be your sacred shrine of pilgrimage. *​
> 
> AwgY drgih mMnIAih imlY inQwvy Qwau ]1] *Hereafter, you shall be honored in the Court of the Lord; there, even the homeless find a home. ||1|| *​
> 
> BweI ry swcI siqgur syv ] *O Siblings of Destiny, service to the True Guru alone is True.*​
> 
> siqgur quTY pweIAY pUrn AlK AByv ]1] rhwau ] *When the True Guru is pleased, we obtain the Perfect, Unseen, Unknowable Lord. ||1||Pause|| *​
> 
> siqgur ivthu vwirAw ijin idqw scu nwau ] *I am a sacrifice to the True Guru, who has bestowed the True Name. *​
> 
> Anidnu scu slwhxw scy ky gux gwau ] *Night and day, I praise the True One; I sing the Glorious Praises of the True One.*​
> 
> scu Kwxw scu pYnxw scy scw nwau ]2] *True is the food, and true are the clothes, of those who chant the True Name of the True One. ||2|| *​
> 
> swis igrwis n ivsrY sPlu mUriq guru Awip ] *With each breath and morsel of food, do not forget the Guru, the Embodiment of Fulfillment.*​
> 
> gur jyvfu Avru n idseI AwT phr iqsu jwip ] *None is seen to be as great as the Guru. Meditate on Him twenty-four hours a day.*​
> 
> ndir kry qw pweIAY scu nwmu guxqwis ]3] *As He casts His Glance of Grace, we obtain the True Name, the Treasure of Excellence. ||3|| *​
> 
> guru prmysru eyku hY sB mih rihAw smwie ] *The Guru and the Transcendent Lord are one and the same, pervading and permeating amongst all.*​
> 
> ijn kau pUrib iliKAw syeI nwmu iDAwie ] *Those who have such pre-ordained destiny, meditate on the Naam.*​
> 
> nwnk gur srxwgqI mrY n AwvY jwie ]4]30]100] *Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||*​
> 
> 
> *In this Shabad Guru Ji is telling us that Guru and Parmesar are the same one, permeating everywhere.*​
> 
> *AND*​
> 
> AMg 49 *Page 49*​
> 
> isrIrwgu mhlw 5 ] *Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:*​
> 
> 
> sMq jnhu imil BweIho scw nwmu smwil ] *Meet with the humble Saints, O Siblings of Destiny, and contemplate the True Name. *​
> 
> qosw bMDhu jIA kw AYQY EQY nwil ] *For the journey of the soul, gather those supplies which will go with you here and hereafter.*​
> 
> gur pUry qy pweIAY ApxI ndir inhwil ] *These are obtained from the Perfect Guru, when God bestows His Glance of Grace.*​
> 
> krim prwpiq iqsu hovY ijs no hOie dieAwlu ]1] *Those unto whom He is Merciful, receive His Grace. ||1||*​
> 
> myry mn gur jyvfu Avru n koie ] *O my mind, there is no other as great as the Guru. *​
> 
> dUjw Qwau n ko suJY gur myly scu soie ]1] rhwau ] *I cannot imagine any other place. The Guru leads me to meet the True Lord. ||1||Pause||*​
> 
> sgl pdwrQ iqsu imly ijin guru ifTw jwie ] *Those who go to see the Guru obtain all treasures. *​
> 
> gur crxI ijn mnu lgw sy vfBwgI mwie ] *Those whose minds are attached to the Guru's Feet are very fortunate, O my mother. *​
> 
> guru dwqw smrQu guru guru sB mih rihAw smwie ] *The Guru is the Giver, the Guru is All-powerful. The Guru is All-pervading, contained amongst all.*​
> 
> guru prmysru pwrbRhmu guru fubdw ley qrwie ]2] *The Guru is the Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God. The Guru lifts up and saves those who are drowning. ||2||*​
> 
> 
> ikqu muiK guru swlwhIAY krx kwrx smrQu ] *How shall I praise the Guru, the All-powerful Cause of causes?*​
> 
> sy mQy inhcl rhy ijn guir DwirAw hQu ] *Those, upon whose foreheads the Guru has placed His Hand, remain steady and stable.*​
> 
> guir AMimRq nwmu pIAwilAw jnm mrn kw pQu ] *The Guru has led me to drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; He has released me from the cycle of birth and death.*​
> 
> guru prmysru syivAw BY BMjnu duK lQu ]3] *I serve the Guru, the Transcendent Lord, the Dispeller of fear; my suffering has been taken away. ||3|| *​
> 
> siqguru gihr gBIru hY suK swgru AGKMfu ] *The True Guru is the Deep and Profound Ocean of Peace, the Destroyer of sin.*​
> 
> ijin guru syivAw Awpxw jmdUq n lwgY fMfu ] *For those who serve their Guru, there is no punishment at the hands of the Messenger of Death. *​
> 
> gur nwil quil n lgeI Koij ifTw bRhmMfu ] *There is none to compare with the Guru; I have searched and looked throughout the entire universe.*​
> 
> nwmu inDwnu siqguir dIAw suKu nwnk mn mih mMfu ]4]20]90] *The True Guru has bestowed the Treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord. O Nanak, the mind is filled with peace. ||4||20||90||*​
> 
> 
> *In the above shabad Guru Ji is calling Guru – Parbrahm in a literal sense. *
> *AND*
> 
> AMg 802 *Page 802*​
> 
> rwgu iblwvlu mhlw 5 Gru 2 XwnVIey kY Gir gwvxw *Raag Bilaaval, Fifth Mehl, Second House, To Be Sung To The Tune Of Yaan-Ree-Ay:*​
> 
> <> siqgur pRswid ] *One Universal** Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: *​
> 
> mY min qyrI tyk myry ipAwry mY min qyrI tyk ] *You are the Support of my mind, O my Beloved, You are the Support of my mind. *​
> 
> Avr isAwxpw ibrQIAw ipAwry rwKn kau qum eyk ]1] rhwau ] *All other clever tricks are useless, O Beloved; You alone are my Protector. ||1||Pause||*​
> 
> siqguru pUrw jy imlY ipAwry so jnu hoq inhwlw ] *One who meets with the Perfect True Guru, O Beloved, that humble person is enraptured.*​
> 
> gur kI syvw so kry ipAwry ijs no hoie dieAwlw ] *He alone serves the Guru, O Beloved, unto whom the Lord becomes merciful. *​
> 
> sPl mUriq gurdyau suAwmI srb klw BrpUry ] *Fruitful is the form of the Divine Guru, O Lord and Master; He is overflowing with all powers. *​
> 
> nwnk guru pwrbRhmu prmysru sdw sdw hjUry ]1] *O Nanak, the Guru is the Supreme Lord God, the Transcendent Lord; He is ever-present, forever and ever. ||1||*​
> 
> suix suix jIvw soie iqnw kI ijn@ Apunw pRBu jwqw ] *I live by hearing, hearing of those who know their God. *​
> 
> hir nwmu ArwDih nwmu vKwxih hir nwmy hI mnu rwqw ] *They contemplate the Lord's Name, they chant the Lord's Name, and their minds are imbued with the Lord's Name. *​
> 
> syvku jn kI syvw mwgY pUrY krim kmwvw ] *I am Your servant; I beg to serve Your humble servants. By the karma of perfect destiny, I do this. *​
> 
> nwnk kI bynµqI suAwmI qyry jn dyKxu pwvw ]2] *This is Nanak's prayer: O my Lord and Master, may I obtain the Blessed Vision of Your humble servants. ||2||*​
> 
> vfBwgI sy kwFIAih ipAwry sMqsMgiq ijnw vwso ] *They are said to be very fortunate, O Beloved, who who dwell in the Society of the Saints. *​
> 
> AMimRq nwmu ArwDIAY inrmlu mnY hovY prgwso ] *They contemplate the Immaculate, Ambrosial Naam, and their minds are illuminated. *​
> 
> jnm mrx duKu kwtIAY ipAwry cUkY jm kI kwxy ] *The pains of birth and death are eradicated, O Beloved, and the fear of the Messenger of Death is ended. *​
> 
> iqnw prwpiq drsnu nwnk jo pRB Apxy Bwxy ]3] *They alone obtain the Blessed Vision of this Darshan, O Nanak, who are pleasing to their God. ||3||*​
> 
> aUc Apwr byAMq suAwmI kauxu jwxY gux qyry ] ​
> 
> *O my lofty, incomparable and infinite Lord and Master, who can know Your Glorious Virtues?*​
> 
> 
> gwvqy auDrih suxqy auDrih ibnsih pwp Gnyry ] *Those who sing them are saved, and those who listen to them are saved; all their sins are erased.*​
> 
> psU pryq mugD kau qwry pwhn pwir auqwrY ] *You save the beasts, demons and fools, and even stones are carried across. *​
> 
> nwnk dws qyrI srxweI sdw sdw bilhwrY ]4]1]4] ​
> 
> *Slave Nanak seeks Your Sanctuary; he is forever and ever a sacrifice to You. ||4||1||4||*​
> *In this Shabad again Guru Ji is showing us the same- there is no difference between Guru and God.*
> 
> 
> 
> *For 40/50 years, Gurbani-as IT IS, has cleared all my doubts. I kept my eyes closed and looked at the World through Guru’s eyes. I never felt a need to disect Gur Bani. I have thousands of friends, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Christians, in India and Overseas, who have the same belief as I have.*
> *None of them who read Gurbani ever suggested me to practice this 'disection process' or 'Dont believe Bani in Literal Sense' theory. All believe in Bani –AS IT IS.*
> 
> *Das always see Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s Insignia in each and every word of Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Stamped it with Guru- Brahmgyani Ki Gat Brahmgyani Jaaney- das vichara Guru da Pallaa phar ke kharaa(das is only holding Guru’s scarf), Guru knows the Gurprasaad.*
> 
> *Gurbani is written for everybody, no mediator is needed to explain that. Guru, the immortal is talking to us, we dont need mortals describing it to us if it is true or not true. *
> 
> *Metaphors used in Gurbani are all taken from regular human society- NOTHING IS OFF PLANET. Everybody can understand the meaning of the mataphors easily. *
> 
> *Practicing Humility is most important for a seeker. In Gurbani Guru Ji states that we should even avoid calling ourselves a seeker. One has to be totally steeped in Humility, so how one can expect that any Saint will say-'I AM GOD'. Guru tells us:*
> 
> *ਸਗਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਮਹਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪ੍ਰਧਾਨੁ ॥ Among all persons, the supreme person is the one*
> *ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਮਿਟੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥ who gives up his egotistical pride in the Company of the Holy.*
> *ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਜੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਨੀਚਾ ॥ One who sees himself as lowly,*
> *ਸੋਊ ਗਨੀਐ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਊਚਾ ॥ shall be accounted as the highest of all.*
> *ਜਾ ਕਾ ਮਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਸਗਲ ਕੀ ਰੀਨਾ ॥ One whose mind is the dust of all,*
> *ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਨਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਚੀਨਾ ॥ recognizes the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, in each and every heart.*
> *ਮਨ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਤੇ ਬੁਰਾ ਮਿਟਾਨਾ ॥ One who eradicates cruelty from within his own mind,*
> *ਪੇਖੈ ਸਗਲ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਾਜਨਾ ॥ looks upon all the world as his friend.*
> *ਸੂਖ ਦੂਖ ਜਨ ਸਮ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੇਤਾ ॥ One who looks upon pleasure and pain as one and the same,*
> *ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਨਹੀ ਲੇਪਾ ॥੬॥ O Nanak, is not affected by sin or virtue. ||6||*
> 
> *We mortals have no capacity to debate on Guru’s Word. Guru is Immortal, we are mortals:*
> 
> *Guru Ji tells:*
> 
> 
> AMg 310 *Page 310*​
> 
> 
> pauVI ] *Pauree:*​
> 
> 
> scu scw siqguru Amru hY ijsu AMdir hir auir DwirAw ] *Truest of the True is the Immortal True Guru; He has enshrined the Lord deep within His heart.*​
> 
> 
> scu scw siqguru purKu hY ijin kwmu k®oDu ibKu mwirAw ] *Truest of the True is the True Guru, the Primal Being, who has conquered sexual desire, anger and corruption.*​
> 
> 
> jw ifTw pUrw siqgurU qW AMdrhu mnu swDwirAw ] *When I see the Perfect True Guru, then deep within, my mind is comforted and consoled.*​
> 
> 
> bilhwrI gur Awpxy sdw sdw Guim vwirAw ] *I am a sacrifice to my True Guru; I am devoted and dedicated to Him, forever and ever.*​
> 
> 
> gurmuiK ijqw mnmuiK hwirAw ]17] *A Gurmukh wins the battle of life whereas a self-willed manmukh loses it. ||17||*​
> 
> *Guru Ji is explaining in this Shabad that Satguru is immortal.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **********
> swD kI soBw swD bin AweI ]*The glory of the Holy people is theirs alone;*nwnk swD pRB Bydu n BweI ]8]7]*O Nanak, there is no difference between the Holy people and God. ||8||7|| **and*nwnk bRhm igAwnI Awip prmysur ]6]*O Nanak, the God-conscious being is Himself the Supreme Lord God. ||6||.* .


 
Pyramid Ji, thankyou for this thread. 

Totally agree with you about these issues. Comapring Gurbani and then proving it be different or contradictory to each other has become  a normal practice. Performing such a task is totally against Gurmat. 

 Read this:

Rozana Spokesman Online........

When all the other tacts havn't worked, they are now after comparing God with God.

About:

*



Just to collect information on this issue:
Das want to know how many more people out there think the need of-

1. CAREFULLNESS WHILE READING GURBANI- IS IT TRUE OR NOT(!), 
2. CAREFULLNESS WHILE BELIEVING GUR WAK- IS IT CORRUPT OR BELIEVABLE(!),
3. KNOWING THAT BHATT BANI IS NOT GURBANI, AVOID THAT(!),
4. KNOWING ALL THAT BANI THAT YOU CONSIDER AVOIDING(!),
5. CONSIDERING THAT THE LITERAL MEANING LEADS TO CONFUSION AND WRONG BELIEFS, WE NEED MORTALS TO DESCRIBE THE BANI'S CORRECT MEANING WHICH(BANI) IS WRITTEN AND COMPILED BY IMMORTALS(GURU/SAINT/GOD REALIZED)(!), 
6. UNDERSTANDING THAT LITERAL MEANING AND MATAPHORS CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY COMMON PEOPLE, THAT UNDERSTANDING IS ONLY A PROPERTY OF A FEW SELECTED ONES, 
7. FAITH THAT THE MEANING IN THE METAPHOR IS DIFFERENT THAN THE MEANING IN REAL,
8. KNOWING THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE(MORTAL) OUT THERE BETTER THAN OUR GURU, WHO CAN DEBATE OVER GURBANI AND TELL US THE REAL MEANING, WHICH OUR GURU(IMMORTAL BEING) IS UNABLE TO SEND ACROSS,
exist.

Click to expand...

* 
No need exist for any of these. Thinking to have need for any of these points will be not accepting Guru Ji - Guru Ji.


----------



## Daanveer

The conversation on this thread reminds me of the riddle:

Guru Baraa Ke Chelaa!


----------



## Astroboy

Pyramid said:


> namjap Ji,
> 
> When did this happen that Truth-Sat started to change forms? Guru Ji tells: *Truth is for ever*. IN PEACE. formless.
> 
> Answer to your query: as you asked from me , has to be my answer.
> By the way, what is the punishment if I say - I dont know the answer- as there is not any answer what so ever.


 

If this is your belief, then one should also believe in the spiritual masters beyond Guru Nanak. Before SGGS, before Bhatts. Before Jesus, Before Krishna. Because Truth never changes. 

Your concept is wrong, Pyramid Ji. You are not following the unchanging Truth. You are believing in the instruction of the written words of the spiritual masters - then why not also follow the Vedas, Upanishads, Buddhist literature, etc ?

Putting too much importance in the instructions and not pursuing the eternal Truth is the short-coming in every human being. Make the instruction a tool to reach the eternal and unchanging Truth. By bowing your head a million times to the word - *water*, is not going to quench your thirst. You have to understand what water you are instructed to seek - that will quench.


----------



## spnadmin

Danveer ji

Amazing, no!  In Italy they would say: This is a shaggy dog story. You  can't tell the head from the tail. Later I am going to make an outline.


----------



## pk70

namjap said:


> Maybe someone else can answer the unanswerable question!!!
> I wonder where's PK70, Bhagat Singh, Ekmusafir_Ajnabi and Sikh80!!!


 
namjap ji
How are you?
I  have been on the road for almost 4 days so couldnt share any thing with you and all other wonderful people. There are many questions I am going to answer besides yours one, like of Jasleen_Kaur's, aad0002 ji's.
If you happen to please read your own thread" how I became Sikh" I tried my best to explain how Guru Granth Sahib has totally changed my life, especially my behaviour. Here on this site, I have seen people judging others, accusing others of some thing they never did. All this forced me to think again if by reading/reciting Gurbani, can people change?  Does their behaviour change as per Gurmat in context of ego and slandering and tolerating?  Right in this context, I wrote in my post that in understanding Gurbani, there are no levels. Doubtless, there are levels of Sikhi. In this regard, I am to answer Jasleen ji question in detail. The reason I am writing all this here in context of your question, is very clear. Gurbani is not as simple to understand as some people say. Without understanding Gurbani, one just cannot learn any thing by merely thinking that Waheguru will clear all doubts. For centuries, Guru Nanak Jot kept interpretting it with various examples. Even Guru ji has tried to explain who can be a true Guru" ghar meh ghar dikhaye de so SATGURU purakh sujan Slok Mehla 1 Ram Kli ki waar., in Sree Rag Mehla 5 " poora Satgur je milai payeeai SHABAD nidhaan" Guru ji also points about this understanding of Gurbani very clearly in Kanara Mehla 5" gavanhari gavai geet 11 te udhre base je cheet"( I am quoting these Guru wak from my memory, sorry if any small mistake occurs). There are many examples of Guru shabad in which Guru Hukam is to meditate on WAHEGURU. Shabad, Guru, Naam words are used for Waheguru. Guru, the spiritual teacher of the seeker is defined by Guru ji himself. Guru ji goes one step further that the persons who always are in love with Waheguru, they become like Waheguru. Note it down the following Shabad, it is in Asa rag by Fifth Nanak" jina n vissrai NAAM se kinehyaa .(Question) in the following Guru waak, lies the answer" bhedh n jano mool SAEEN jehyaa"
namjap ji, here is the answer to your question. Fifth Nanak writes in Gond Rag" Gur meri pooja. Gur mera Parbrahm Gur Bhagawant........Gur Nanak, Nanak Har soye 11 In this Shabad Fifth Nanak in high esteem, honours Guru Nanak by calling him Waheguru, SAtguru Nanak experienced Waheguru and has guided others to be in love with HIM. Same idea prevails in Bhatta dee Bani. There is no contradiction to Moolmantra here or in Bhattan dee Bani at all, only the seeker should understand the context. Reciting Gurbani with closed eyes will do nothing unless a preparation for HIM is done as Sikhs are asked by Guru ji in Japji Sahib.
Regarding formless Guru. When some people say that Guru is formless, so there is no difference between Guru and God, they also confuse the concept of God in Sikhism. When Randip Singh stated that it was a hindu hang over, he brilliantly expressed the mentality of human beings. Guru shabad is honoured as Waheguru in Guru Granth Sahib, what Guru ji means is that it is revealed by Waheguru Himself, so never ever doubt it. Sikhs should revere Guru Shabad in high esteem to create unconditional faith in Guru as well as in Waheguru. Through out Guru Granth Sahib, true love for the Creator is worded in stunningly beautiful way. No where we can find this kind of love for Him expressed in  sincerity with so high gravity. As gyani Jarnail Singh stated, for Sikhs, questions should be answered. Very true If some one calls Guru is God but totally is in love with Waheguru and has overcome ego, anger, slandering, greed etc, it means this is the way he/she has learned Sikhi but if only God is Guru is merely aslogan, nothing is happening within, I shall reserve my views about such person. I, as said before, challenge any one who can prove there is any contradiction in Guru Granth Sahib. If it is about God incarnation, it is stated in Mool mantra that Waheguru never ever incarnates and in context of incarnation First Nanak clears doubts again in ONKAAR " dhann Dharnidhar(WAHEGURU) aap ajooni, tol bol SACH poora" again in Bhairon Mehla 5 "so mukh jlo jitt kehe THAKAR joni"
Coming back to namjap ji question, bhatt ji strictly following Guru bachan.
Humbly I request all of you that more you try to understand Gurbani, more your life will be guided by Guru Ji


----------



## Astroboy

Beautiful answer, PK70 Ji.


----------



## Archived_Member1

> "If it is about God incarnation, it is stated in Mool mantra that Waheguru never ever incarnates"



ok, i'm sorry to go off topic...

i think this is a huge misconception.  when people say Guru IS God, it doesn't mean God incarnation.  it means light merged with light.  Guru ji is the drop that falls in the ocean, and so IS the ocean.

no one is talking about hindu concept of incarnation/avtars here.  it's just a different way of seeing/understanding things.  

we worship God as Nirankar/formless, but we SEE God in everything. 

does this make sense?

for me, personally, it hurts me to see people put restrictions on God.  "God cannot do this, God cannot do that".  i'm sorry, but per my limited understanding, God is beyond our capability to understand, describe, or explain.  who are we to say what God can and cannot do?  

everyone experiences God per their own understanding.  that's a good thing.  but i don't think it's appropriate to set limits on him in any way.

sorry for the diversion...


----------



## pk70

Jasleen Kaur ji

I think you are responding to my post and let me share with you what is problem here. We dont know God, we just say about God as per Guru's shabad that states God doesnt incarnate and I have said nothing of my own. I believe, as a Sikh, you shouldnt have any problem with Guru's statement.. If that is accepted then why to get confused by saying Guru is God. When we as seekers talk about/ or feel about meditating on God, what should we do? keep saying God is Guru, or Guru is God or try to start our journey as a seeker to fall in love with Him, the Infinite. I have also stated another thing in the post about people who even call Guru is God but try to fall in love with The Creator. That says it all about what I was trying to say. Please remember we are just discussing what is stated by Guru ji. Who are we to say things from our own. We have got guidance from Guru ji and are proceeding accordingly. People differ in understanding Gurbani.


----------



## Pyramid

Daanveer said:


> Pyramid Ji, thankyou for this thread.
> 
> Totally agree with you about these issues. Comapring Gurbani and then proving it be different or contradictory to each other has become a normal practice. Performing such a task is totally against Gurmat.
> 
> Read this:
> 
> Rozana Spokesman Online........
> 
> When all the other tacts havn't worked, they are now after comparing God with God.


 
Daanveer Ji,

Thankyou.

Purpose is to make people aware of the practice of the manipulated Presentation of the Truth. Thanks for your encouraging comments. 

Tacts been introduced since the beggining, and will always be around, only we need to be aware of them, and be prepared to save ourselves from falling into the falsehood. Keep living and sharing the Truth. 

Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## Pyramid

namjap said:


> If this is your belief, then one should also believe in the spiritual masters beyond Guru Nanak. Before SGGS, before Bhatts. Before Jesus, Before Krishna. Because Truth never changes.
> 
> Your concept is wrong, Pyramid Ji. You are not following the unchanging Truth. You are believing in the instruction of the written words of the spiritual masters - then why not also follow the Vedas, Upanishads, Buddhist literature, etc ?
> 
> Putting too much importance in the instructions and not pursuing the eternal Truth is the short-coming in every human being. Make the instruction a tool to reach the eternal and unchanging Truth. By bowing your head a million times to the word - *water*, is not going to quench your thirst. You have to understand what water you are instructed to seek - that will quench.


 
namjap Ji,
Thankyou.

I believe in Him and He is present everywhere, in you as well. I believe in His presence there and bow down to Him there as well. You can say whatever about it, it cant change. I believe in every TRUE master, and you know what: every true master's words are in line with Bani. A true master is not different than God. He is God Himself. Guru Ji tells this truth many many times.

I repeat my words from my first post:
*Gurbani came from the True Source: Divine Lord. Gurbani is Gurprashaad. Guru Stamped it with word ‘GurPrasaad’ everywhere. Gurbani is compiled as a collection of Hymns collected from different Saints irrespective of color, cast, creed, time and religion.*

Instructing tool itself is He Himself 

There is no second- duja nahi koi

Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## Archived_Member1

pk70 said:


> Jasleen Kaur ji
> 
> I think you are responding to my post and let me share with you what is problem here. We dont know God, we just say about God as per Guru's shabad that states God doesnt incarnate and I have said nothing of my own. I believe, as a Sikh, you shouldnt have any problem with Guru's statement.. If that is accepted then why to get confused by saying Guru is God. When we as seekers talk about/ or feel about meditating on God, what should we do? keep saying God is Guru, or Guru is God or try to start our journey as a seeker to fall in love with Him, the Infinite. I have also stated another thing in the post about people who even call Guru is God but try to fall in love with The Creator. That says it all about what I was trying to say. Please remember we are just discussing what is stated by Guru ji. Who are we to say things from our own. We have got guidance from Guru ji and are proceeding accordingly. People differ in understanding Gurbani.



there it is again...  that confusion about Guru is God being the same thing as incarnation.  it's not, by the way.   if you read through the several threads on this topic you might see that. 

Guru's Shabad also tells us that Nanak is God himself.    shall i just take your word for it that Gurbani is WRONG?  no, sorry, i'll listen to Guru and try not to set my own limitations on God. 

thanks for responding.


----------



## Pyramid

Jasleen Ji,

Thankyou much for your continuing support.
Keep living and sharing the Truth.


Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> Purpose is to make people aware of the practice of the manipulated Presentation of the Truth.


 
The entire issue of challenging bani has to do with this manipulation of Truth. It is one thing to question, seeking deeper understanding. But to undermine, refute and challenge basic Sikh teaching isn't questioning at all...it is like the termite seeking to destroy foundation. 

All these fine hair-splitting positions are designed to erode the authenticity and authority of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, Rehat Maryada, vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji and vaaran of Bhai Nand Lal Ji, and various historical commentaries which all the Takhts analyze, weigh and consider. These arguments are cleverly constructed to raise doubt in the mind of Guru's Sikhs about institutions of Gursikhi such as Kande-ki Pohul, daily recitation of nitenam, panj kakkars, and the underpinnings of Rehat Maryada and the very existence of the Khalsa. In short, they invent a new kind of Sikhi which please the secular person who doesn't want commitment to a Guru. 

If one listens to the actual words of people like Kala Afghana, he goes so far as to challenge there is no atma...there is no karam...there is no paap...there is no Vaheguru. The man is an atheist acting as a missionary to preach the eroding disbeliefs and instill doubt in Sikhism. His supporters are more clever than he...they quote sweet Gurbani, and then challenge only certain things to erode confidence, like taking only a small step in an atheistic, anti-Gurmat direction. 

To have discussions is fine. Even to have sincere questions is fine. But to impose atheistic secular philosophy into Gurmat Sikh teaching creates an uproar. And why not? It isn't clever talk anymore. Its a direct challenge to the legitimacy of Sikhism, history of Sikhism, culture of Sikhism and essential Sikh belief and institutions. It becomes anti-Gurmat missionary propaganda against the explicit directives of Akal Takht.

Go and debate whatever you want. Accept this but don't accept that. Take this part but tear apart the legitimacy of that part.... Once someone becomes a PREACHER of something against Sikh teaching on a public forum, and challenges the authority of Akal Takht on these matters...HE ENDS THE DISCUSSION for Sikhs.

*When someone starts misleading people it is in fact a serious cause for worry.* 

And thats what these challenges and underminings are about. To lead people AWAY from Gurmat Gursikhi. This is how insidious this is...if we were having a discussion with atheists, secularists, Muslims, Christians, etc. We could present a Sikh position while respecting their right of difference. But this is a Sikh forum. And these debates are happening between Sikh people eroding the validity of Gursikh teaching. To what purpose? To justify lifestyle in contradiction to Gurmat while having the name Gurmat? It is a lie, a fraud, an audacity, and a challenge. 

These are the same people who tell you it's okay for a Sikh to cut hair. To cut a child's hair until he is of age to decide for himself. They say a Sikh doesn't need amrit, and say there is no need for amrit at all because it is just self-righteous hypocrisy. These people take and pick what they choose from Gurbani, and go so far as to deny that some bani is even bani. They say don't believe the vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji, or vaaran of Bhai Nand Lal Ji or supporting vaaran of the Rehat Mayada, or even rehitnamay...they say it is only opinion...and they have a better, more informed, modern opinion! In short, they make an atheism out of a religion! They make an individual patchwork out of what should be surrendered submission to a SatGuru! They are making THEMSELVES equal to Guru! Because they interpret for themselves only what they want.

But that is not the case in Gurmat Gursikhi. Every bania, and every vaaran which have been accepted by the Takhts since the foundation of Sikhi all agree and cross-confirm. There is no contradiction at all. 
*



			they just select a few Guru waak or some Bhatt bani to prove their case that guru is God.”
		
Click to expand...

*Well, all opinions and debates are fruitless unless they are Guru-oriented. So the simplest answer is...what does Gurbani say? And here is the answer. 


> ਕਲਿ ਮਾਹਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਅਉ ॥
> kal maahi roop karathaa purakh so jaanai jin kishh keeao ||
> In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Guru is the Form of the Creator, the Primal Lord God; he alone knows, who has tried it.
> 17 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar DasBhikha
> 
> -SGGS Ji p. 1395


And for those who are searching for the real knowledge can read the shabads posted below. Because only HE who has penetrated the insights of both the nirgun and sargun aspects of Vaheguru is merged with Vaheguru. No human being can possibly do this. The human brain is finite. Only a much greater being is even capable of knowing what no human being can know. 


> ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਕਹਣਿ ਨ ਅੰਤੁ ॥
> anth n sifathee kehan n anth ||
> Endless are His Praises, endless are those who speak them.
> 6 JapGuru Nanak Dev
> 
> ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਕਰਣੈ ਦੇਣਿ ਨ ਅੰਤੁ ॥
> anth n karanai dhaen n anth ||
> Endless are His Actions, endless are His Gifts.
> 7 JapGuru Nanak Dev
> 
> ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਵੇਖਣਿ ਸੁਣਣਿ ਨ ਅੰਤੁ ॥
> anth n vaekhan sunan n anth ||
> Endless is His Vision, endless is His Hearing.
> 7 JapGuru Nanak Dev
> 
> ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਕਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਮੰਤੁ ॥
> anth n jaapai kiaa man manth ||
> His limits cannot be perceived. What is the Mystery of His Mind?
> 7 JapGuru Nanak Dev
> 
> ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥
> anth n jaapai keethaa aakaar ||
> The limits of the created universe cannot be perceived.
> 8 JapGuru Nanak Dev
> 
> ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰੁ ॥
> anth n jaapai paaraavaar ||
> Its limits here and beyond cannot be perceived.
> 8 JapGuru Nanak Dev
> 
> ਅੰਤ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਬਿਲਲਾਹਿ ॥
> anth kaaran kaethae bilalaahi ||
> Many struggle to know His limits,
> 8 JapGuru Nanak Dev
> 
> ਤਾ ਕੇ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਪਾਏ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
> thaa kae anth n paaeae jaahi ||
> but His limits cannot be found.
> 9 JapGuru Nanak Dev
> 
> ਏਹੁ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
> eaehu anth n jaanai koe ||
> No one can know these limits.
> 9 JapGuru Nanak Dev
> 
> ਬਹੁਤਾ ਕਹੀਐ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
> bahuthaa keheeai bahuthaa hoe ||
> The more you say about them, the more there still remains to be said.
> 9 JapGuru Nanak Dev
> 
> ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਊਚਾ ਥਾਉ ॥
> vaddaa saahib oochaa thhaao ||
> Great is the Master, High is His Heavenly Home.
> 9 JapGuru Nanak Dev
> 
> ਊਚੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਊਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
> oochae oupar oochaa naao ||
> Highest of the High, above all is His Name.
> 10 JapGuru Nanak Dev
> 
> ਏਵਡੁ ਊਚਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
> eaevadd oochaa hovai koe ||
> Only one as Great and as High as God
> 10 JapGuru Nanak Dev
> 
> ਤਿਸੁ ਊਚੇ ਕਉ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
> this oochae ko jaanai soe ||
> can know His Lofty and Exalted State.
> 10 JapGuru Nanak Dev
> 
> ਜੇਵਡੁ ਆਪਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪਿ ਆਪਿ ॥
> jaevadd aap jaanai aap aap ||
> Only He Himself is that Great. He Himself knows Himself.
> 10 JapGuru Nanak Dev
> 
> -SGGS Ji p. 5


And for those who are searching can read the entire shabad leading to this statement. 


> ਇਕੁ ਬਿੰਨਿ ਦੁਗਣ ਜੁ ਤਉ ਰਹੈ ਜਾ ਸੁਮੰਤ੍ਰਿ ਮਾਨਵਹਿ ਲਹਿ ॥
> eik binn dhugan j tho rehai jaa sumanthr maanavehi lehi ||
> Realizing the One Lord, love of duality ceases, and one comes to accept the Sublime Mantra of the Guru.
> 1 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Jal-Jalap
> 
> ਜਾਲਪਾ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਇਤੜੇ ਗੁਰ ਅਮਰਦਾਸਿ ਡਿਠੈ ਮਿਲਹਿ ॥੫॥੧੪॥
> jaalapaa padhaarathh eitharrae gur amaradhaas ddithai milehi ||5||14||
> So speaks Jaalap: countless treasures are obtained, by the sight of Guru Amar Daas. ||5||14||
> 2 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Jal-Jalap
> 
> ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ਸੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੁ ਨਾਨਕਿ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹਿਅਉ ॥
> sach naam karathaar s dhrirr naanak sangrehiao ||
> Guru Nanak gathered up the True Name of the Creator Lord, and implanted it within.
> 2 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਤਾ ਤੇ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਲਹਣਾ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿ ਤਾਸੁ ਚਰਣਹ ਲਿਵ ਰਹਿਅਉ ॥
> thaa thae angadh lehanaa pragatt thaas charaneh liv rehiao ||
> Through Him, Lehnaa became manifest in the form of Guru Angad, who remained lovingly attuned to His Feet.
> 3 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਤਿਤੁ ਕੁਲਿ ਗੁਰ ਅਮਰਦਾਸੁ ਆਸਾ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਤਾਸੁ ਗੁਣ ਕਵਣ ਵਖਾਣਉ ॥
> thith kul gur amaradhaas aasaa nivaas thaas gun kavan vakhaano ||
> Guru Amar Daas of that dynasty is the home of hope. How can I express His Glorious Virtues?
> 3 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਜੋ ਗੁਣ ਅਲਖ ਅਗੰਮ ਤਿਨਹ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਉ ॥
> jo gun alakh aganm thineh gun anth n jaano ||
> His Virtues are unknowable and unfathomable. I do not know the limits of His Virtues.
> 4 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਬੋਹਿਥਉ ਬਿਧਾਤੈ ਨਿਰਮਯੌ ਸਭ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਕੁਲ ਉਧਰਣ ॥
> bohithho bidhhaathai niramaya sabh sangath kul oudhharan ||
> The Creator, the Architect of Destiny, has made Him a boat to carry all His generations across, along with the Sangat, the Holy Congregation.
> 5 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਗੁਰ ਅਮਰਦਾਸ ਕੀਰਤੁ ਕਹੈ ਤ੍ਰਾਹਿ ਤ੍ਰਾਹਿ ਤੁਅ ਪਾ ਸਰਣ ॥੧॥੧੫॥
> gur amaradhaas keerath kehai thraahi thraahi thua paa saran ||1||15||
> So speaks Keerat: O Guru Amar Daas, please protect me and save me; I seek the Sanctuary of Your Feet. ||1||15||
> 5 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਆਪਿ ਨਰਾਇਣੁ ਕਲਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਵਰਿਯਉ ॥
> aap naraaein kalaa dhhaar jag mehi paravariyo ||
> The Lord Himself wielded His Power and entered the world.
> 6 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਗ ਮੰਡਲਿ ਕਰਿਯਉ ॥
> nirankaar aakaar joth jag manddal kariyo ||
> The Formless Lord took form, and with His Light He illuminated the realms of the world.
> 6 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਜਹ ਕਹ ਤਹ ਭਰਪੂਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਦੀਪਕਿ ਦੀਪਾਯਉ ॥
> jeh keh theh bharapoor sabadh dheepak dheepaayo ||
> He is All-pervading everywhere; the Lamp of the Shabad, the Word, has been lit.
> 7 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਜਿਹ ਸਿਖਹ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹਿਓ ਤਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਣ ਮਿਲਾਯਉ ॥
> jih sikheh sangrehiou thath har charan milaayo ||
> Whoever gathers in the essence of the teachings shall be absorbed in the Feet of the Lord.
> 7 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਨਾਨਕ ਕੁਲਿ ਨਿੰਮਲੁ ਅਵਤਰਿ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਅੰਗਦ ਲਹਣੇ ਸੰਗਿ ਹੁਅ ॥
> naanak kul ninmal avathariyo angadh lehanae sang hua ||
> Lehnaa, who became Guru Angad, and Guru Amar Daas, have been reincarnated into the pure house of Guru Nanak.
> 8 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਗੁਰ ਅਮਰਦਾਸ ਤਾਰਣ ਤਰਣ ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਪਾ ਸਰਣਿ ਤੁਅ ॥੨॥੧੬॥
> gur amaradhaas thaaran tharan janam janam paa saran thua ||2||16||
> Guru Amar Daas is our Saving Grace, who carries us across; in lifetime after lifetime, I seek the Sanctuary of Your Feet. ||2||16||
> 8 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਪਿਖਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖਹ ॥
> jap thap sath santhokh pikh dharasan gur sikheh ||
> Gazing upon the Blessed Vision of His Darshan, the Gursikh is blessed with chanting and deep meditation, truth and contentment.
> 9 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰਹਿ ਤੇ ਉਬਰਹਿ ਛੋਡਿ ਜਮ ਪੁਰ ਕੀ ਲਿਖਹ ॥
> saran parehi thae oubarehi shhodd jam pur kee likheh ||
> Whoever seeks His Sanctuary is saved; his account is cleared in the City of Death.
> 9 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਭਗਤਿ ਭਾਇ ਭਰਪੂਰੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਉਚਰੈ ਕਰਤਾਰੈ ॥
> bhagath bhaae bharapoor ridhai oucharai karathaarai ||
> His heart is totally filled with loving devotion; he chants to the Creator Lord.
> 10 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਗੁਰੁ ਗਉਹਰੁ ਦਰੀਆਉ ਪਲਕ ਡੁਬੰਤ੍ਯ੍ਯਹ ਤਾਰੈ ॥
> gur gouhar dhareeaao palak ddubanthyeh thaarai ||
> The Guru is the river of pearls; in an instant, he carries the drowning ones across.
> 10 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਨਾਨਕ ਕੁਲਿ ਨਿੰਮਲੁ ਅਵਤਰਿ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਗੁਣ ਕਰਤਾਰੈ ਉਚਰੈ ॥
> naanak kul ninmal avathariyo gun karathaarai oucharai ||
> He was reincarnated into the House of Guru Nanak; He chants the Glorious Praises of the Creator Lord.
> 11 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਗੁਰੁ ਅਮਰਦਾਸੁ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਸੇਵਿਅਉ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਦੁਖੁ ਦਰਿਦ੍ਰੁ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਪਰੈ ॥੩॥੧੭॥
> gur amaradhaas jinh saeviao thinh dhukh dharidhra parehar parai ||3||17||
> Those who serve Guru Amar Daas - their pains and poverty are taken away, far away. ||3||17||
> 11 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਚਿਤਿ ਚਿਤਵਉ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਕਹਉ ਪਰੁ ਕਹਿ ਭਿ ਨ ਸਕਉ ॥
> chith chithavo aradhaas keho par kehi bh n sako ||
> I consciously pray within my consciousness, but I cannot express it in words.
> 12 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਸਰਬ ਚਿੰਤ ਤੁਝੁ ਪਾਸਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਹਉ ਤਕਉ ॥
> sarab chinth thujh paas saadhhasangath ho thako ||
> I place all my worries and anxieties before You; I look to the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, for help.
> 13 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਤੇਰੈ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਵੈ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਤਉ ਕਰਉ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥
> thaerai hukam pavai neesaan tho karo saahib kee saevaa ||
> By the Hukam of Your Command, I am blessed with Your Insignia; I serve my Lord and Master.
> 13 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਜਬ ਗੁਰੁ ਦੇਖੈ ਸੁਭ ਦਿਸਟਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਮੇਵਾ ॥
> jab gur dhaekhai subh dhisatt naam karathaa mukh maevaa ||
> When You, O Guru, gaze at me with Your Glance of Grace, the fruit of the Naam, the Name of the Creator, is placed within my mouth.
> 14 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਅਗਮ ਅਲਖ ਕਾਰਣ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੋ ਫੁਰਮਾਵਹਿ ਸੋ ਕਹਉ ॥
> agam alakh kaaran purakh jo furamaavehi so keho ||
> The Unfathomable and Unseen Primal Lord God, the Cause of causes - as He orders, so do I speak.
> 14 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਗੁਰ ਅਮਰਦਾਸ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਰਣ ਜਿਵ ਤੂ ਰਖਹਿ ਤਿਵ ਰਹਉ ॥੪॥੧੮॥
> gur amaradhaas kaaran karan jiv thoo rakhehi thiv reho ||4||18||
> O Guru Amar Daas, Doer of deeds, Cause of causes, as You keep me, I remain; as You protect me, I survive. ||4||18||
> 15 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat
> 
> ਭਿਖੇ ਕੇ ॥
> bhikhae kae ||
> Of Bhikhaa:
> 15
> 
> ਗੁਰੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਅਰੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਤਤ ਸਿਉ ਤਤੁ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ॥
> gur giaan ar dhhiaan thath sio thath milaavai ||
> In deep meditation, and the spiritual wisdom of the Guru, one's essence merges with the essence of reality.
> 15 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Bhikha
> 
> ਸਚਿ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਇਕ ਚਿਤਹਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਵੈ ॥
> sach sach jaaneeai eik chithehi liv laavai ||
> In truth, the True Lord is recognized and realized, when one is lovingly attuned to Him, with one-pointed consciousness.
> 16 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Bhikha
> 
> ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਵਸਿ ਕਰੈ ਪਵਣੁ ਉਡੰਤ ਨ ਧਾਵੈ ॥
> kaam krodhh vas karai pavan ouddanth n dhhaavai ||
> Lust and anger are brought under control, when the breath does not fly around, wandering restlessly.
> 16 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Bhikha
> 
> ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਕੈ ਵਸੈ ਦੇਸਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਬੁਝਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
> nirankaar kai vasai dhaes hukam bujh beechaar paavai ||
> Dwelling in the land of the Formless Lord, realizing the Hukam of His Command, His contemplative wisdom is attained.
> 17 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Bhikha
> 
> ਕਲਿ ਮਾਹਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਅਉ ॥
> kal maahi roop karathaa purakh so jaanai jin kishh keeao ||
> In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Guru is the Form of the Creator, the Primal Lord God; he alone knows, who has tried it.
> 17 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Bhikha
> 
> ਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲ੍ਯ੍ਯਿਉ ਸੋਇ ਭਿਖਾ ਕਹੈ ਸਹਜ ਰੰਗਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੀਅਉ ॥੧॥੧੯॥
> gur miliyo soe bhikhaa kehai sehaj rang dharasan dheeao ||1||19||
> So speaks Bhikhaa: I have met the Guru. With love and intuitive affection, He has bestowed the Blessed Vision of His Darshan. ||1||19||
> 18 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Bhikha
> 
> ਰਹਿਓ ਸੰਤ ਹਉ ਟੋਲਿ ਸਾਧ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੇ ਡਿਠੇ ॥
> rehiou santh ho ttol saadhh bahuthaerae ddithae ||
> I have been searching for the Saints; I have seen so many Holy and spiritual people.
> 19 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Bhikha
> 
> ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਤਪਸੀਅਹ ਮੁਖਹੁ ਏ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮਿਠੇ ॥
> sanniaasee thapaseeah mukhahu eae panddith mithae ||
> The hermits, Sannyaasees, ascetics, penitents, fanatics and Pandits all speak sweetly.
> 19 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Bhikha
> 
> ਬਰਸੁ ਏਕੁ ਹਉ ਫਿਰਿਓ ਕਿਨੈ ਨਹੁ ਪਰਚਉ ਲਾਯਉ ॥
> baras eaek ho firiou kinai nahu paracho laayo ||
> I wandered around lost for a year, but no one touched my soul.
> 19 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Bhikha
> 
> -SGGS Ji p. 1395


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## Astroboy

Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji,

For the Gurbani you quoted,


----------



## spnadmin

Harjas ji

In your recent comments you have referred to other members as termites, atheists, followers of an aetheist, doubt-raisers, anti-Gurmat, under-miners of Sikhism, liars, and more. No one individual has been singled out, however you seem to have taken aim at the entire discussion. No matter how wrong or how deluded some may be in your eyes, please debate the issues, not personalities.


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## Astroboy

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]*Why I sympathize with you Pyramid Ji,*[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]One day, a Sikh was reciting the a holy composition from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. He read the line, "Karte kee mit Karta jaanai, 'ke' jaanai Gur soora". (The word 'kai' was wrongly pronounced. He pronounced it as 'ke'). [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]When Guru Ji listened to this, he ordered his Sikhs to cane the man. Other Sikhs prayed, "Guru Ji, why did you get this Sikh caned? A person, who recites even a single line of your bani, he is liberated; but this Sikh recited (whole of the composition of) 'Oankaar' and is beaten". [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Guru Ji smiled and said, "Brother! He did not 'research' before reading."[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Guru Ji asked that Sikh what he read. The Sikh again read that line wrongly. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Guru Ji said "Pronounce this line, as 'Karte kee mit Kartaa jaanai, 'kai' jaanai Gur soora'. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]"Brother! The meaning of this line is like this, 'The Creator knows His extent or the warrior Guru knows'. This Sikh mispronounced a vowel, which distorted the meanings like this, 'The Creator knows His extent. What does Guru know?' This is the contrary meaning. Sikh brothers! He, who pronounces the bani accurately, will be liberated. One who does not recite the Bani correctly will be punished.”[/FONT]
.....................................................................................................................

*Why I admire your spirit you Pyramid Ji,*

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Once, there was discussion about God. Guru Ji asked, "Brothers! Who was the king during Kabir's life-time?" [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Then, some old persons said, "Humanyoo". 
Someone said, "Pithora". 
One said, "Sikandar". 
One said, "Madan Paal was the king". 
There was a big debate for a long time. Guru Ji continued to listen. 
“We cannot reach them; the God's men are high. The castes, 'varnas' and kingdoms, all remain lower.” 
They all became silent. The Sikhs asked, "O True King! Why did you ask? Please tell yourself". 
Guru Ji said, "This is the glory of 'Naam'. Kabir was a poor weaver. Everyone knows him. And the king was the owner of large kingdoms of the world, no one knows him (now). See the glory of the 'Name'. There were thousands of Pandits, Shah, astrologers, kings, but all are unknown (now). By the grace of 'Name', Kabir is called the knowledgeable and 'Sidh' (perfect). O Sikhs! The 'Name' is great. It was 'Sikandar Shah' (who was the king during the lifetime of Kabeer). He conquered India, he bowed before Kabir Ji after seeing the miracle of Kabir. O Sikhs! He, who repeats the 'Name', is the Sikh of the Guru. Repeat the 'Name' and do the 'seva' (service) with thy hands." 
[/FONT]..................................................................................................................

*Why I should not question your devotion about Guru being God, Pyramid Ji :*

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Once, a Sikh made a request before the Guru Ji, "O true King! I am grieved by the world. Eliminate the pain of birth and death. Save me from sins. I am in your protection. I am illiterate". [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Guru Ji said, "Brother Sikh! You are blessed that you became detached (from the world). An fool cannot get sense without education. One should get education. An uneducated person cannot understand anything. The God meets him, whose pronunciation of 'Bani' is perfect. Brother! Do study. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Guru Ji asked the 'Granthi' to teach that Sikh with love. The 'Granthi' started to teach him. While teaching, he taught him this line of Anand Sahib prayer, "Anand bhya meree maaye, Satguroo main paaya." (The heavenly pleasure occurred, O my mother, for I have found my True Guru). [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Sikh recited this line with love and went reciting it. Sometimes, he would eat from 'langar' (the community kitchen). His faith increased reciting this line. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]After six months, Guru Ji asked the Granthi, "Did he learn?" [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]He replied, "He did not return after learning one line." [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Guru Ji called for that Sikh and asked, "You were sent to learn." [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]He replied with folded hands, "Guru Ji! One line is enough. When the True Guru has been found, 'Anand' is gotten. (Without getting the 'Anand') more reciting is the act of 'Bemukhs'." [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Guru Ji smiled and said, "You are 'nihaal' (bliss). Your cycle of birth and death has been curtailed."[/FONT]

.................................................................................................................


----------



## Astroboy

*Bhagat Namdev ji and a Dog *


*Sab Gobind Hai Sab Gobind Hai Gobind Bin Nahin Koi - *( Aasaa Saint Nam Dev - Guru Granth Sahib Page 485 )* => God is everything, God is everything. Without God, there is nothing at all. *

*"Truth and unity are one. One supreme Reality pervades the whole universe. A true devotee of God has a universal vision, a --perceeption of oneness.* *Bhagat Namdev perceives his Lord everywhere* *and sings the Glory of his all pervading Lord accordingly in the foregoing hymn."* 

God's name was always on the lips of Bhagat *Namdev* Ji. Bhagat ji had realised that indeed, everything is God's creation, and that God dwells inside every creature. 
Bhagat jis devotion reached such a pitch that , One daywhen Namdev ji was sitting at a place doing his Bhajan, a dog came to the spot and ran away with the bread he had prepared for his midday meal. It is said that Bhagat Namdev ran after the dog not with a stick in his hand, but with a cup of Ghee; and he addressed the dog thus: "O Lord of the world! Why do You want to eat the dry bread? Take some Ghee along with it. It will taste much better". On hearing this the Lord gave his d ivine vision to Bhagat Namdev ji
*hindhoo poojai dhaehuraa musulumaan museeth *
*=> **The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque.*

*naamae soee saeviaa jeh dhaehuraa n museeth*
*=> **Naam Dayv serves that Lord, who is not limited to either the temple or the mosque. ||4||3||7|| ( *Guru Granth Sahib Page 874) 

My question : If Bhatt Bani is Guru, how about Bhagat Namdev's - isn't his bani Guru ?

If a devotee has the perception of oneness, he doesn't become God at all. If a devotee praises God, he doesn't become God.


----------



## Pyramid

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:
			
		

> Well, all opinions and debates are fruitless unless they are Guru-oriented. So the simplest answer is...what does Gurbani say?


 
Harjas Ji,
Thankyou

Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## Pyramid

namjap Ji,​ 
Thank you much for sharing *************** stories.​ 
Debate issues -- Pyramid you can do it! Mod​ 



Tuhada Das
Yograj​


----------



## Pyramid

Cyber Sangat Ji,

Gurparsaad sharing with all: Starting with Bani Bhagat Naam Dev Ji.

AMg 1252
ang 1252
Page 1252​ 
bdhu kI n hof mwDau mo isau ]​budhuhu kee n hodd maadho mo sio 
Why not make a bet with me, O Lord of Wealth?​ 
Twkur qy jnu jn qy Twkuru Kylu pirE hY qo isau ]1] rhwau ]
thaakur thae jun jun thae thaakur khael pariou hai tho sio 
From the master comes the servant, and from the servant, comes the master. This is the game I play with You. ||1||Pause||​ 
Awpn dyau dyhurw Awpn Awp lgwvY pUjw ]
aapun dhaeo dhaehuraaaapun aap lugaavai poojaa
You Yourself are the deity, and You are the temple of worship. You are the devoted worshipper.​ 
jl qy qrMg qrMg qy hY jlu khn sunn kau dUjw ]1]
jul thae thurung thurung thae hai jul kehun sunun ko dhoojaa
From the water, the waves rise up, and from the waves, the water. They are only different by figures of speech. ||1||​ 
Awpih gwvY Awpih nwcY Awip bjwvY qUrw ]
aapehi gaavaiaapehi naachaiaap bujaavai thooraa
You Yourself sing, and You Yourself dance. You Yourself blow the bugle.​ 
khq nwmdyau qUM myro Twkuru jnu aUrw qU pUrw ]2]2]
kehuth naamudhaeo thoon maero thaakur jun ooraa thoo pooraa
Says Naam Dayv, You are my Lord and Master. Your humble servant is imperfect; You are perfect. ||2||2||​ 

AMg 163
ang 163
Page 163​ 
gauVI guAwryrI mhlw 4 cauQw caupdy
gourree guaaraeree mehulaa 4 chouthaa choupudhae
Gauree Gwaarayree, Fourth Mehl, Chau-Padas:​ 
<> siqgur pRswid ]
ik ounkaar sathigur prusaadh
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:​ 
pMifqu swsq isimRiq piVAw ]
punddith saasuth simrith parriaa
The Pandit - the religious scholar - recites the Shaastras and the Simritees;​ 
jogI gorKu gorKu kirAw ]
jogee gorukh gorukh kariaa
the Yogi cries out, ""Gorakh, Gorakh"".​ 
mY mUrK hir hir jpu piVAw ]1]
mai moorukh har har jup parriaa
But I am just a fool - I just chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. ||1||​ 
nw jwnw ikAw giq rwm hmwrI ]
naa jaanaa kiaa gath raam humaaree
I do not know what my condition shall be, Lord.​ 
hir Bju mn myry qru Baujlu qU qwrI ]1] rhwau ]
har bhuj mun maerae thur bhoujul thoo thaaree
O my mind, vibrate and meditate on the Name of the Lord. You shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean. ||1||Pause||​ 
sMinAwsI ibBUq lwie dyh svwrI ]
sunniaasee bibhooth laae dhaeh suvaaree
The Sannyaasee smears his body with ashes;​ 
pr iqRA iqAwgu krI bRhmcwrI ]
pur thria thiaag kuree brehumuchaaree
renouncing other men's women, he practices celibacy.​ 
mY mUrK hir Aws qumwrI ]2]
mai moorukh har aas thumaaree
I am just a fool, Lord; I place my hopes in You! ||2||​ 
KqRI krm kry sUrqxu pwvY ]
khuthree kurum kurae sooruthun paavai
The Kh'shaatriya acts bravely, and is recognized as a warrior.​ 
sUdu vYsu pr ikriq kmwvY ]
soodh vais pur kirath kumaavai
The Shoodra and the Vaisha work and slave for others;​ 
mY mUrK hir nwmu CfwvY ]3]
mai moorukh har naam shuddaavai
I am just a fool - I am saved by the Lord's Name. ||3||​ 
sB qyrI isRsit qUM Awip rihAw smweI ]
subh thaeree srisatt thoon aap rehiaa sumaaee
The entire Universe is Yours; You Yourself permeate and pervade it.​ 
gurmuiK nwnk dy vifAweI ]
gurumukh naanuk dhae vaddiaaee
O Nanak, the Gurmukhs are blessed with glorious greatness.​ 
mY AMDuly hir tyk itkweI ]4]1]39]
mai andhulae har ttaek ttikaaee
I am blind - I have taken the Lord as my Support. ||4||1||39||​

FOR PYRAMID MOOR, BANI IS HAR HAR. Bani Nirankaar.​ 

AMg 197
ang 197
Page 197​

gauVI mhlw 5 ]
gourree mehulaa 5 
Gauree, Fifth Mehl:​ 
jo pRwxI goivMdu iDAwvY ]
jo praanee govindh dhiaavai
That mortal who meditates on the Lord of the Universe,​ 
piVAw AxpiVAw prm giq pwvY ]1]
parriaa anuparriaa purum gath paavai
whether educated or uneducated, obtains the state of supreme dignity. ||1||​ 
swDU sMig ismir gopwl ]
saadhoo sung simar gopaal 
In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, meditate on the Lord of the World.​ 
ibnu nwvY JUTw Dnu mwlu ]1] rhwau ]
bin naavai jhoothaa dhun maal 
Without the Name, wealth and property are false. ||1||Pause||​ 
rUpvMqu so cquru isAwxw ]
roopuvunth so chuthur siaanaa
They alone are handsome, clever and wise,​ 
ijin jin mwinAw pRB kw Bwxw ]2]
jin jan maaniaa prubh kaa bhaanaa
who surrender to the Will of God. ||2||​ 
jg mih AwieAw so prvwxu ]
jug mehiaaeiaa so puruvaan 
Blessed is their coming into this world,​ 
Git Git Apxw suAwmI jwxu ]3]
ghatt ghatt apunaa suaamee jaan
if they recognize their Lord and Master in each and every heart. ||3||​ 
khu nwnk jw ky pUrn Bwg ]
kuhu naanuk jaa kae poorun bhaag
Says Nanak, their good fortune is perfect,​ 
hir crxI qw kw mnu lwg ]4]90]159]
har churunee thaa kaa mun laag 
if they enshrine the Lord's Feet within their minds. ||4||90||159||​ 

AMg 339
ang 339
Page 339​ 
rwjw rwm qUM AYsw inrBau qrn qwrn rwm rwieAw ]1] rhwau ]
raajaa raam thoon aisaa nirubho thurun thaarun raam raaeiaa
O my Sovereign Lord King, You are Fearless; You are the Carrier to carry us across, O my Lord King. ||1||Pause||​ 
jb hm hoqy qb qum nwhI Ab qum hhu hm nwhI ]
jub hum hothae thub thum naahee ab thum huhu hum naahee
When I was, then You were not; now that You are, I am not.​ 
Ab hm qum eyk Bey hih eykY dyKq mnu pqIAwhI ]1]
ab hum thum eaek bheae hehi eaekai dhaekhuth mun putheeaahee
Now, You and I have become one; seeing this, my mind is content. ||1||​ 
jb buiD hoqI qb blu kYsw Ab buiD blu n KtweI ]
jub budh hothee thub bul kaisaa ab budh bul n khuttaaee
When there was wisdom, how could there be strength? Now that there is wisdom, strength cannot prevail.​ 
kih kbIr buiD hir leI myrI buiD bdlI isiD pweI ]2]21]72]
kehi kubeer budh har lee maeree budh budhulee sidh paaee
Says Kabeer, the Lord has taken away my wisdom, and I have attained spiritual perfection. ||2||21||72||​ 

AMg 7
ang 7
Page 7​

AwKix joru cupY nh joru ]
aakhan jor chupai neh jor 
No power to speak, no power to keep silent.​ 
joru n mMgix dyix n joru ]
jor n mungan dhaen n jor 
No power to beg, no power to give.​ 
joru n jIvix mrix nh joru ]
jor n jeevan muran neh jor 
No power to live, no power to die.​ 
joru n rwij mwil min soru ]
jor n raaj maal man sor 
No power to rule, with wealth and occult mental powers.​ 
joru n surqI igAwin vIcwir ]
jor n suruthee giaan veechaar 
No power to gain intuitive understanding, spiritual wisdom and meditation.​ 
joru n jugqI CutY sMswru ]
jor n juguthee shuttai sunsaar 
No power to find the way to escape from the world.​ 
ijsu hiQ joru kir vyKY soie ]
jis hath jor kar vaekhai soe 
He alone has the Power in His Hands. He watches over all.​ 
nwnk auqmu nIcu n koie ]33]
naanuk outhum neech n koe 
O Nanak, no one is high or low. ||33||​ 

AMg 405
ang 405
Page 405​

rwgu Awsw mhlw 5 Gru 12
raag aasaa mehulaa 5 ghur 12
Raag Aasaa, Fifth Mehl, Twelfth House:​ 
<> siqgur pRswid ]
ik ounkaar sath
igur prusaadh ​ 
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:​ 
iqAwig sgl isAwnpw Bju pwrbRhm inrMkwru ]
thiaag sugul siaanupaa bhuj paarubrehum nirunkaar 
Renounce all your cleverness and remember the Supreme, Formless Lord God.​ 
eyk swcy nwm bwJhu sgl dIsY Cwru ]1]
eaek saachae naam baajhuhu sugul dheesai shaar 
Without the One True Name, everything appears as dust. ||1||​ 
so pRBu jwxIAY sd sMig ]
so prubh jaaneeai sudh sung 
Know that God is always with you.​ 
gur pRswdI bUJIAY eyk hir kY rMig ]1] rhwau ]
gur prusaadhee boojheeai eaek har kai rung 
By Guru's Grace, one understands, and is imbued with the Love of the One Lord. ||1||Pause||​ 
srix smrQ eyk kyrI dUjw nwhI Twau ]
suran sumuruth eaek kaeree dhoojaa naahee thaao 
Seek the Shelter of the One All-powerful Lord; there is no other place of rest.​ 
mhw Baujlu lµGIAY sdw hir gux gwau ]2]
mehaa bhoujul lungheeai sudhaa har gun gaao 
The vast and terrifying world-ocean is crossed over, singing continually the Glorious Praises of the Lord. ||2||​ 
jnm mrxu invwrIAY duKu n jm puir hoie ]
junum murun nivaareeai dhukh n jum pur hoe 
Birth and death are overcome, and one does not have to suffer in the City of Death.​ 
nwmu inDwnu soeI pwey ik®pw kry pRBu soie ]3]
naam nidhaan soee paaeae kirupaa kurae prubh soe 
He alone obtains the treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, unto whom God shows His Mercy. ||3||​ 
eyk tyk ADwru eyko eyk kw min joru ]
eaek ttaek adhaar eaeko eaek kaa man jor 
The One Lord is my Anchor and Support; the One Lord alone is the power of my mind.​ 
nwnk jpIAY imil swDsMgiq hir ibnu Avru n horu ]4]1]136]
naanuk jupeeai mil saadhusungath har bin avur n hor 
O Nanak, joining the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, meditate on Him; without the Lord, there is no other at all. ||4||1||136||​ 

AMg 653
ang 653
Page 653​ 
pauVI ]​pourree

Pauree:​


qU krx kwrx smrQu hih krqy mY quJ ibnu Avru n koeI ]
thoo kurun kaarun sumuruth hehi kuruthae mai thujh bin avur n koee​

You are the Creator, all-powerful, able to do anything. Without You, there is no other at all.​


quDu Awpy issit isrjIAw Awpy Puin goeI ]
thudh aapae sisatt sirujeeaaaapae fun goee​

You Yourself created the world, and You Yourself shall destroy it in the end.​


sBu ieko sbdu vrqdw jo kry su hoeI ]
subh eiko subudh vuruthudhaa jo kurae s hoee​

The Word of Your Shabad alone is pervading everywhere; whatever You do, comes to pass.​


vifAweI gurmuiK dyie pRBu hir pwvY soeI ]
vaddiaaee gurumukh dhaee prubh har paavai soee​

God blesses the Gurmukh with glorious greatness, and then, he finds the Lord.​


gurmuiK nwnk AwrwiDAw siB AwKhu DMnu DMnu DMnu guru soeI ]29]1] suDu
gurumukh naanuk aaraadhiaa sabh aakhuhu dhunn dhunn dhunn gur soee​

As Gurmukh, Nanak worships and adores the Lord; let everyone proclaim, ""Blessed, blessed, blessed is He, the Guru!""||29||1||Sudh||​




AMg 1270
ang 1270
Page 1270​


rwgu mlwr mhlw 5 caupdy Gru 2
raag mulaar mehulaa 5 choupudhae ghur 2​

Raag Malaar, Fifth Mehl, Chau-Padas, Second House:​


<> siqgur pRswid ]
ik ounkaar sathigur prusaadh ​

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:​


gurmuiK dIsY bRhm pswru ]
gurumukh dheesai brehum pusaar ​

The Gurmukh sees God pervading everywhere.​


gurmuiK qRY guxIAW ibsQwru ]
gurumukh thrai guneeaa bisuthaar ​

The Gurmukh knows that the universe is the extension of the three gunas, the three dispositions.​


gurmuiK nwd byd bIcwru ]
gurumukh naadh baedh beechaar ​

The Gurmukh reflects on the Sound-current of the Naad, and the wisdom of the Vedas.​


ibnu gur pUry Gor AMDwru ]1]
bin gur poorae ghor andhaar ​

Without the Perfect Guru, there is only pitch-black darkness. ||1||​


myry mn guru guru krq sdw suKu pweIAY ]
maerae mun gur gur kuruth sudhaa sukh paaeeai​

O my mind, calling on the Guru, eternal peace is found.​


gur aupdyis hir ihrdY visE swis igrwis Apxw Ksmu iDAweIAY ]1] rhwau ]
gur oupudhaes har hirudhai vasiou saas giraas apunaa khusum dhiaaeeai​

Following the Guru's Teachings, the Lord comes to dwell within the heart; I meditate on my Lord and Master with every breath and morsel of food. ||1||Pause||​


gur ky crx ivthu bil jwau ]
gur kae churun vittuhu bal jaao ​

I am a sacrifice to the Guru's Feet.​


gur ky gux Anidnu inq gwau ]
gur kae gun anadhin nith gaao ​

Night and day, I continually sing the Glorious Praises of the Guru.​


gur kI DUiV krau iesnwnu ]
gur kee dhoorr kuro eisunaan ​

I take my cleansing bath in the dust of the Guru's Feet.​


swcI drgh pweIAY mwnu ]2]
saachee dhurugeh paaeeai maan ​

I am honored in the True Court of the Lord. ||2||​


guru boihQu Bvjl qwrxhwru ]
gur bohith bhuvujul thaarunehaar ​

The Guru is the boat, to carry me across the terrifying world-ocean.​


guir ByitAY n hoie join Aauqwru ]
gur bhaettiai n hoe jon aouthaar ​

Meeting with the Guru, I shall not be reincarnated ever again.​


gur kI syvw so jnu pwey ]
gur kee saevaa so jun paaeae​

That humble being serves the Guru,​


jw kau krim iliKAw Duir Awey ]3]
jaa ko kuram likhiaa dhur aaeae​

who has such karma inscribed on his forehead by the Primal Lord. ||3||​


guru myrI jIvin guru AwDwru ]
gur maeree jeevan gur aadhaar ​

The Guru is my life; the Guru is my support.​


guru myrI vrqix guru prvwru ]
gur maeree vuruthan gur puruvaar ​

The Guru is my way of life; the Guru is my family.​


guru myrw Ksmu siqgur srxweI ]
gur maeraa khusum sathigur surunaaee​

The Guru is my Lord and Master; I seek the Sanctuary of the True Guru.​


nwnk guru pwrbRhmu jw kI kIm n pweI ]4]1]19]
naanuk gur paarubrehum jaa kee keem n paaee​
O Nanak, the Guru is the Supreme Lord God; His value cannot be estimated. ||4||1||19||​​



Tuhada Das
Papi Yograj​


----------



## Astroboy

*Here's a post by Balbir Singh Ji*
*(Source: Is Gurbaanee also Nirankaar?*)
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/19713-is-gurbaanee-also-nirankaar-2.html#post70791

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Neech Jee!

Welcome to this forum.
God incarnates to execute all His activities. For human beings those are Godly and demonic, different. Neech is also an incarnation of God.
Your answer to the curiosity 'Is Gurbaanee also Nirankaar' is 'YES'.

Sometime back after a call from Gurdwaaraa Head Sikhs collected old BeeRs and Gutkas. They went on a particular day as planned on the bank of a river and celebrated the 'Daah Sanskaar'. The scene was touchy.
I was happy as Gurbaanee had incarnated as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee and Gutkaas earlier.
This is the difference. A Jeev reincarnates life after the death ceremony. 
Nirankaar incarnates before the death ceremony done by Sikhs.

Are Sikhs celebrating 'Daah Sanskaar' of Nirankaar knowingly?


Some of us would find this post controversial. Your comments can add to the current topic as well.


----------



## pk70

jasleen_kaur said:


> there it is again... that confusion about Guru is God being the same thing as incarnation. it's not, by the way.  if you read through the several threads on this topic you might see that.
> 
> Guru's Shabad also tells us that Nanak is God himself.  shall i just take your word for it that Gurbani is WRONG? no, sorry, i'll listen to Guru and try not to set my own limitations on God.
> 
> thanks for responding.


 
Jasleen_Kaur ji

By the way I never requested you to follow me. I have just shared what my limited understang of Gurbani is. According to you, Guru Shabad says Nanak is God, to me it doent say so. Good luck


----------



## Pyramid

namjap said:


> *Here's a post by Balbir Singh Ji*
> *(Source: Is Gurbaanee also Nirankaar?*)
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/19713-is-gurbaanee-also-nirankaar-2.html#post70791
> 
> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Neech Jee!
> 
> Welcome to this forum.
> God incarnates to execute all His activities. For human beings those are Godly and demonic, different. Neech is also an incarnation of God.
> Your answer to the curiosity 'Is Gurbaanee also Nirankaar' is 'YES'.
> 
> Sometime back after a call from Gurdwaaraa Head Sikhs collected old BeeRs and Gutkas. They went on a particular day as planned on the bank of a river and celebrated the 'Daah Sanskaar'. The scene was touchy.
> I was happy as Gurbaanee had incarnated as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee and Gutkaas earlier.
> This is the difference. A Jeev reincarnates life after the death ceremony.
> Nirankaar incarnates before the death ceremony done by Sikhs.
> 
> Are Sikhs celebrating 'Daah Sanskaar' of Nirankaar knowingly?
> 
> 
> Some of us would find this post controversial. Your comments can add to the current topic as well.


 

Cyber Sangat Ji,

as far as papi yograj knows that it is done to pay respects to the place where Gurbani is printed. Dehi that helped us read Gurbani, Dehi that shared Nirankaar with us mortals. Jithay jaaey bahay mera satguru so thaan suhaava raam rai.
Any place where Guru is Residing is worth of recieving respects. With Guru Ji's grace as the understanding expands, no place(in real it is not but mind thinks it to be) remain without Guru, -I am out of words now.

Tuhada Das
Papi Yograj


namjap Ji,

Thankyou for pointing this out, now we will have this point discussed as well. We will be more confident of Bani- Nirankaar Gurshabad. Thankyou.

Bani Nirankaar Hai, Tis jevad avar na koi.

Tuhada Das
Papi Yograj


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## Pyramid

Cyber Sangat Ji,

More Gurparsaad:

ਗੋਂਡ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
gonadd mehalaa 5 ||
Gond, Fifth Mehl:

ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ॥ 
gur maeree poojaa gur gobindh ||
I worship and adore my Guru; the Guru is the Lord of the Universe.

ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਭਗਵੰਤੁ ॥ 
gur maeraa paarabreham gur bhagavanth ||
My Guru is the Supreme Lord God; the Guru is the Lord God.

ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਦੇਉ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਉ ॥ 
gur maeraa dhaeo alakh abhaeo ||
My Guru is divine, invisible and mysterious.

ਸਰਬ ਪੂਜ ਚਰਨ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਉ ॥੧॥ 
sarab pooj charan gur saeo ||1||
I serve at the Guru's feet, which are worshipped by all. ||1||

ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੈ ਥਾਉ ॥ 
gur bin avar naahee mai thhaao ||
Without the Guru, I have no other place at all.

ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਜਪਉ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
anadhin japo guroo gur naao ||1|| rehaao ||
Night and day, I chant the Name of Guru, Guru. ||1||Pause||

ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥ 
gur maeraa giaan gur ridhai dhhiaan ||
The Guru is my spiritual wisdom, the Guru is the meditation within my heart.

ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਭਗਵਾਨੁ ॥ 
gur gopaal purakh bhagavaan ||
The Guru is the Lord of the World, the Primal Being, the Lord God.

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਰਹਉ ਕਰ ਜੋਰਿ ॥ 
gur kee saran reho kar jor ||
With my palms pressed together, I remain in the Guru's Sanctuary.

ਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਹੋਰੁ ॥੨॥ 
guroo binaa mai naahee hor ||2||
Without the Guru, I have no other at all. ||2||

ਗੁਰੁ ਬੋਹਿਥੁ ਤਾਰੇ ਭਵ ਪਾਰਿ ॥ 
gur bohithh thaarae bhav paar ||
The Guru is the boat to cross over the terrifying world-ocean.

ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਜਮ ਤੇ ਛੁਟਕਾਰਿ ॥ 
gur saevaa jam thae shhuttakaar ||
Serving the Guru, one is released from the Messenger of Death.

ਅੰਧਕਾਰ ਮਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਉਜਾਰਾ ॥ 
andhhakaar mehi gur manthra oujaaraa ||
In the darkness, the Guru's Mantra shines forth.

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਗਲ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ॥੩॥ 
gur kai sang sagal nisathaaraa ||3||
With the Guru, all are saved. ||3||

ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ॥ 
gur pooraa paaeeai vaddabhaagee ||
The Perfect Guru is found, by great good fortune.

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ 
gur kee saevaa dhookh n laagee ||
Serving the Guru, pain does not afflict anyone.

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਮੇਟੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
gur kaa sabadh n maettai koe ||
No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥ 
gur naanak naanak har soe ||4||7||9||
Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

Tuhada Das
Papi Yograj


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## Astroboy

Pyramid Ji,

Thank you for sharing a beautiful vaak from Gurdev. 
It is said that an ounce of practice is better than tons of theory.

The stories may be man-ghadat to you. But not for me. For me 10 gurus' lifetimes were spent in Gurbani uchaaran. It is good to learn from sources which quote these sakhis. Here's another one from this source: ARE YOU EVEN HALF A DISCIPLE?

During the life of Guru Arjan Sahib, a certain family of devotees who were talented in singing the holy scriptures approached the Guru for some financial help to cover the cost of their daughter's marriage. Guru Arjan said, "All right, it will be given." They waited for some days, but nothing further was said; so once again they faced the Guru and said, "Maharaj, we do not want very much; so if each sikh [i.e. disciple] could give one _taka _[two pice-about a third of a cent] that would be enough." Guru Arjan replied, "All right, tomorrow we will see." The days passed by without further development, and again they approached their Guru, saying, "Please do something quickly, for the date of the marriage is upon us." The Guru said, "All right, tomorrow I will give." When they came to Him the following day, He took out four and a half takas and gave it to them. They looked at the small amount in surprise and said, "Maharaj, what is this? You have such a huge gathering of disciples, and yet you have given us only four and a half takas." Guru Arjan replied, "You said you wanted one taka per Sikh. The first Sikh was Guru Nanak, the second was Guru Angad, the third was Guru Amar Das, the fourth was Guru Ramdas, and, well, the half taka is for me-I am only half a Sikh-and that makes a total of four and a half takas." It was a sharp lesson to those who had thought to be clever and a wonderful example of the humility of Guru Arjan.


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## Pyramid

namjap said:


> Pyramid Ji,
> 
> Thank you for sharing a beautiful vaak from Gurdev.
> It is said that an ounce of practice is better than tons of theory.
> 
> The stories may be man-ghadat to you. But not for me. For me 10 gurus' lifetimes were spent in Gurbani uchaaran. It is good to learn from sources which quote these sakhis. Here's another one from this source: ARE YOU EVEN HALF A DISCIPLE?
> 
> During the life of Guru Arjan Sahib, a certain family of devotees who were talented in singing the holy scriptures approached the Guru for some financial help to cover the cost of their daughter's marriage. Guru Arjan said, "All right, it will be given." They waited for some days, but nothing further was said; so once again they faced the Guru and said, "Maharaj, we do not want very much; so if each sikh [i.e. disciple] could give one _taka _[two pice-about a third of a cent] that would be enough." Guru Arjan replied, "All right, tomorrow we will see." The days passed by without further development, and again they approached their Guru, saying, "Please do something quickly, for the date of the marriage is upon us." The Guru said, "All right, tomorrow I will give." When they came to Him the following day, He took out four and a half takas and gave it to them. They looked at the small amount in surprise and said, "Maharaj, what is this? You have such a huge gathering of disciples, and yet you have given us only four and a half takas." Guru Arjan replied, "You said you wanted one taka per Sikh. The first Sikh was Guru Nanak, the second was Guru Angad, the third was Guru Amar Das, the fourth was Guru Ramdas, and, well, the half taka is for me-I am only half a Sikh-and that makes a total of four and a half takas." It was a sharp lesson to those who had thought to be clever and a wonderful example of the humility of Guru Arjan.


 
namjap Ji,

Thankyou for sharing theory after theory.

Tuhada Das
Papi Yograj


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## spnadmin

*I Can't Moderate Fast Enough Here. Please. Let Us Return To Issues!!!!! With Love, But Also This Ping Pong Match Is Good Entertainment For The Kids Over In The Arcade.*


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## Pyramid

Pyramid said:


> namjap Ji,​
> 
> Thank you much for sharing *************** stories.​
> Debate issues -- Pyramid you can do it! Mod​
> 
> 
> 
> Tuhada Das
> Yograj​


 
Aad Ji,

I think your message travelled faster than the speed of light.

Pendu desi bandaa, shehree saleeka sikhann nu time laggoo.(I am moor from a village, it will take me time to learn your city life style), But I will get there with Guru Kirpa. There is nothing impossible with Guru Kirpa.

Tuhada Das
Papi Yograj


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## Astroboy

If Guru Arjan considered Himself but half a Sikh, then what are we? These days, anyone who learns to give a short talk on the subject becomes a guru overnight. The mere reading of books and learning of hymns by heart - shouting, laughing, singing, making people cry with emotion - and finally saying, "Go, child, you are saved," does not make a Guru. So, listen carefully to the Guru's words on the subject, which speak for themselves:

If the Guru-sikhra is seen, again and again will I bow to Him;
I will tell my innermost thoughts and say, 
0 Beloved Guru, join me back to God.

Page 763, Line 1
ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਗੁਰਸਿਖੜਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਿਵਿ ਨਿਵਿ ਲਾਗਉ ਪਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥
जो दीसै गुरसिखड़ा तिसु निवि निवि लागउ पाइ जीउ ॥
Jo ḏīsai gursikẖ&shy;ṛā ṯis niv niv lāga&shy;o pā&shy;ė jī&shy;o.
When I see a Sikh of the Guru, I humbly bow and fall at his feet.
Guru Arjan Dev


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## spnadmin

Pyramid ji

 OH Thank you.  I want to read your commentary :idea:without interruption. So thank you very much.


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## Pyramid

Aad Ji - a request here and a clarification.

I said mangharant, right.
This is same as- madeup.

Why Bhagat's statement was not deleted when he said- I made up Panja Sahib Stiory.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20534-physical-body-is-not-god-2.html

He clearly told me to stop making up stuff.
Why you didn't show up there to help me, may I ask?

Tuhada Das
Papi Yograj


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## Pyramid

namjap said:


> If Guru Arjan considered Himself but half a Sikh, then what are we? These days, anyone who learns to give a short talk on the subject becomes a guru overnight. The mere reading of books and learning of hymns by heart - shouting, laughing, singing, making people cry with emotion - and finally saying, "Go, child, you are saved," does not make a Guru. So, listen carefully to the Guru's words on the subject, which speak for themselves:
> quote]
> 
> This is exactly papi yograj wants to share with people - Please dont believe in any one- But Guru. Dont believe in anything that is not in line with Gurbani.
> Live and share the Truth- Gurbani.
> 
> Tuhada Das
> Papi Yograj


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## Astroboy

Pyramid said:


> Pendu desi bandaa, shehree saleeka sikhann nu time laggoo.(I am moor from a village, it will take me time to learn your city life style), But I will get there with Guru Kirpa. There is nothing impossible with Guru Kirpa.


 

Sure you will, Pyramid Ji - just like the persistence of this child :-

During the days when Guru Arjan was living in Amritsar, some people from Lahore made plans to visit that city and have His darshan. In those days most traveling was done on foot; and so after some discussion they decided to break their journey for rest after twelve miles, and continue to Amritsar the next day. Everyone agreed to this, except one small child, who stood up and said, "Why can't we reach there in one day instead of two?" Feeling somewhat abashed that the child had more enthusiasm to be in the Guru's presence at any cost, they agreed that it was possible to reach Amritsar in one day, by walking very quickly double the distance, and very briefly pausing to gain their breath. So, the very next day they set out from Lahore and finally reached the outskirts of Amritsar at about midnight. It was a bitterly cold winter season, and when they arrived at the Sikh temple called Pipli Sahib Gurudwara, they were cold, tired, and hungry. Guru Arjan knew their condition, and from His residence, some distance away, He wrapped Himself in a huge blanket from head to foot; and placing a large container of hot halva parshad on His head, He set out to meet the exhausted disciples at Pipli Sahib Gurudwara. With His identity still veiled by the blanket, He distributed the parshad among them and then bent to touch each person's feet. Now, each individual has his own aura, which is a minimum of six inches deep. The stronger the person is spiritually, the deeper is the aura, for it is charged with the thoughts of that being. So, when Guru Arjan went nearer to the group of people, those who did a little meditation became aware of the radiation which emanated from Him. They said to themselves, "This must be some very Great Soul, indeed, Who has served us this night." They asked their blanket-covered Benefactor what He would like in return for His kindness, and He replied, "Dear ones, I humbly beg of you, when you go before your Guru, ask Him to bless me, make me a disciple, and also give me the great gift of humility as long as there is breath in my body." He then quietly slipped away and returned to His residence. A few minutes later, the group from Lahore arrived in His presence and saw the same blanket-covered Person Who had served them at the gurudwara. This is yet another example of the deep humility of Guru Arjan Sahib, Who termed Himself but half a Sikh. What, indeed then, would we find in a complete Sikh?
Everyone suffers from the three miseries. There are perhaps a few who, like the small child, would sacrifice their physical or mental comfort for the company of the Guru; but most people put the world first and the Guru afterward. It should, of course, be vice versa; but we are inclined to weigh these things as if on a balance machine. Those who decide that the Guru has more weight have crossed the biggest hurdle of life, but those who weigh the world heavily will remain in the world. He called Himself a half-Sikh - He Who was a Gurusikh. Then what are we? We think we are gurusikhs; but, in fact, we are mansikhs - disciples of the mind.


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## spnadmin

That is a good question Pyramid ji. And I don't have a very good answer. I took out those words mostly because they at the point where they enter the conversation were turning up the volume on the emotions in the thread. _Also in my reading of Bhagat's use of that -- he wasn't directing it against a specific person or persons -- in my mind. Mods may actually differ on this.  *Y*_*ou know I went back and re-read. He was talking to you. Apologies. So I have to watch this in the future.*

At this point I am hoping moderation will get people to calm down because when emotions build that leads to deletions of entire posts, rather a line here or there, warnings and infractions -- which I don't like to do on principle.


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## Pyramid

Cyber Sangat Ji,

a request from papi yograj: Please provide Gurbani lines every time you provide a translation of Gurbani, Many people dont read translations, they only read guru wak.
Your effort will be really appreciated.

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## Pyramid

aad0002 said:


> That is a good question Pyramid ji. And I don't have a very good answer. I took out those words mostly because they at the point where they enter the conversation were turning up the volume on the emotions in the thread. Also in my reading of Bhagat's use of that -- he wasn't directing it against a specific person or persons -- in my mind. Mods may actually differ on this.
> 
> At this point I am hoping moderation will get people to calm down because when emotions build that leads to deletions of entire posts, rather a line here or there, warnings and infractions -- which I don't like to do on principle.


 

So in general, Only pyramid is supposed to learn ethics, not anyone else.

Good Bey and Good Luck all, I was at a wrong place. I shared with the sangat what I have. I hope it will(thread) not be deleted, so others can read it. There are many who will like it and will be able to get aware of the misguidance being provided by many in the form of sweet statements.


WE DONT NEED ANY:
*1. CAREFULLNESS WHILE READING GURBANI- IS IT TRUE OR NOT(!), *
*2. **CAREFULLNESS WHILE BELIEVING GUR WAK- IS IT CORRUPT OR BELIEVABLE(!),*
*3. **KNOWING THAT BHATT BANI IS NOT GURBANI, AVOID THAT(!),*
*4. **KNOWING ALL THAT BANI THAT YOU CONSIDER AVOIDING(!),*
*5. **CONSIDERING THAT THE LITERAL MEANING LEADS TO CONFUSION AND WRONG BELIEFS, WE NEED MORTALS TO DESCRIBE THE BANI'S CORRECT MEANING WHICH(BANI) IS WRITTEN AND COMPILED BY IMMORTALS(GURU/SAINT/GOD REALIZED)(!), *
*6. **UNDERSTANDING THAT LITERAL MEANING AND MATAPHORS CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY COMMON PEOPLE, THAT UNDERSTANDING IS ONLY A PROPERTY OF A FEW SELECTED ONES, *
*7. **FAITH THAT THE MEANING IN THE METAPHOR IS DIFFERENT THAN THE MEANING IN REAL,*
*8. **KNOWING THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE(MORTAL) OUT THERE BETTER THAN OUR GURU, WHO CAN DEBATE OVER GURBANI AND TELL US THE REAL MEANING, WHICH OUR GURU(IMMORTAL BEING) IS UNABLE TO SEND ACROSS.*

*GOOD BEY ALL- GURU NANAK IS ALWAYS WITH US.*


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## spnadmin

Apologies, Pyramid ji.  I am confessing to carelessness on my part.


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## Astroboy

Aad Ji,

Why do some people find scapegoats to get out of a loosing debate ?

I thought he could take any knocks and blows. I'm dissappointed for not having a worthy opponent.


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## pk70

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> The entire issue of challenging bani has to do with this manipulation of Truth. It is one thing to question, seeking deeper understanding. But to undermine, refute and challenge basic Sikh teaching isn't questioning at all...it is like the termite seeking to destroy foundation.
> 
> All these fine hair-splitting positions are designed to erode the authenticity and authority of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, Rehat Maryada, vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji and vaaran of Bhai Nand Lal Ji, and various historical commentaries which all the Takhts analyze, weigh and consider. These arguments are cleverly constructed to raise doubt in the mind of Guru's Sikhs about institutions of Gursikhi such as Kande-ki Pohul, daily recitation of nitenam, panj kakkars, and the underpinnings of Rehat Maryada and the very existence of the Khalsa. In short, they invent a new kind of Sikhi which please the secular person who doesn't want commitment to a Guru.
> 
> If one listens to the actual words of people like Kala Afghana, he goes so far as to challenge there is no atma...there is no karam...there is no paap...there is no Vaheguru. The man is an atheist acting as a missionary to preach the eroding disbeliefs and instill doubt in Sikhism. His supporters are more clever than he...they quote sweet Gurbani, and then challenge only certain things to erode confidence, like taking only a small step in an atheistic, anti-Gurmat direction.
> 
> To have discussions is fine. Even to have sincere questions is fine. But to impose atheistic secular philosophy into Gurmat Sikh teaching creates an uproar. And why not? It isn't clever talk anymore. Its a direct challenge to the legitimacy of Sikhism, history of Sikhism, culture of Sikhism and essential Sikh belief and institutions. It becomes anti-Gurmat missionary propaganda against the explicit directives of Akal Takht.
> 
> Go and debate whatever you want. Accept this but don't accept that. Take this part but tear apart the legitimacy of that part.... Once someone becomes a PREACHER of something against Sikh teaching on a public forum, and challenges the authority of Akal Takht on these matters...HE ENDS THE DISCUSSION for Sikhs.
> 
> *When someone starts misleading people it is in fact a serious cause for worry.*
> 
> And thats what these challenges and underminings are about. To lead people AWAY from Gurmat Gursikhi. This is how insidious this is...if we were having a discussion with atheists, secularists, Muslims, Christians, etc. We could present a Sikh position while respecting their right of difference. But this is a Sikh forum. And these debates are happening between Sikh people eroding the validity of Gursikh teaching. To what purpose? To justify lifestyle in contradiction to Gurmat while having the name Gurmat? It is a lie, a fraud, an audacity, and a challenge.
> 
> These are the same people who tell you it's okay for a Sikh to cut hair. To cut a child's hair until he is of age to decide for himself. They say a Sikh doesn't need amrit, and say there is no need for amrit at all because it is just self-righteous hypocrisy. These people take and pick what they choose from Gurbani, and go so far as to deny that some bani is even bani. They say don't believe the vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji, or vaaran of Bhai Nand Lal Ji or supporting vaaran of the Rehat Mayada, or even rehitnamay...they say it is only opinion...and they have a better, more informed, modern opinion! In short, they make an atheism out of a religion! They make an individual patchwork out of what should be surrendered submission to a SatGuru! They are making THEMSELVES equal to Guru! Because they interpret for themselves only what they want.
> 
> But that is not the case in Gurmat Gursikhi. Every bania, and every vaaran which have been accepted by the Takhts since the foundation of Sikhi all agree and cross-confirm. There is no contradiction at all.
> 
> Well, all opinions and debates are fruitless unless they are Guru-oriented. So the simplest answer is...what does Gurbani say? And here is the answer.
> 
> And for those who are searching for the real knowledge can read the shabads posted below. Because only HE who has penetrated the insights of both the nirgun and sargun aspects of Vaheguru is merged with Vaheguru. No human being can possibly do this. The human brain is finite. Only a much greater being is even capable of knowing what no human being can know.
> 
> And for those who are searching can read the entire shabad leading to this statement. Mods concerns with this post have already been cited below.


 
Harjas Kaur Khalsa ji
*************************** _***************__It will be my pleasure to discuss with you any thing related with Gurbani or Dasam Granth. *************** In another thread *****************************I am not in habit of judging people and I resent that. strongly._
_Before I analyze your views in context of this thread, let me inform you that I have very poor marks for Kalaafgana, Ghaga, joginder  Singh Spokesman etc since I strongly feel that their show is all about money making. If any thing I say is contrary to your views, *******************************_
_The two shabad you have quoted are not new, we( all those who agree with me or  disagree  with me) have been giving such references to justify our views. Only Guru ji knows who is right or who is not. Doubtless Satguru Sahiban witnessed hypocrisy in their times. Stress is on understanding Gurubani. Merely bowing or seeing  Guru is questioned by Satguru himself_
ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੩ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨੋ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਜੇਤਾ ਜਗਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ ਡਿਠੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਚੁਕਈ ਨਾਮਿ ਨ ਲਗੈ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 594}
( means in essence:  all the people want to see Satguru but  merely seeing(meeting) Satguru will not help in liberation( Why) because just by doing ritual of meeting or seeing doe not help in eliminating ego and, true love for the creator doesn’t blossom within the heart)
_So by just reciting Gurbani cannot be helpful provided Gurumat is not followed in its *totality.*_
_In Guru Granth Sahib ji, dominating instruction by Guru ji is to have him in heart. For that, one’s heart should be free of ego, anger greed, lust . No special day or season is required as it is very common in Hinduism, in other words, always His memory should be in heart so that our mind is kept on track._
ਨਾਨਕ ਰੁਤਿ ਸੁਹਾਵੀ ਸਾਈ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਰੁਤਿ ਕੇਹੀ ॥੪॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1254}
In essence  When HE is heart the season is wonderful, without Him, no season is good)
_Without cleaning mind, no practice is accepted by Satguru_
ਮਨਿ ਮੈਲੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ  (39)
( in essence meaning: if the mind is corrupt with primal forces and duality, His simran is not possible)
_It is just a battle within, outside appearance is of no use if that battle with in is lost to primal forces. _
_In this context all religiously accepted things were disregarded by Guru Nanak ji_
ਤੀਰਥੁ ਤਪੁ ਦਇਆ ਦਤੁ ਦਾਨੁ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ਤਿਲ ਕਾ ਮਾਨ (Japji)
_All becomes useless if mind is corrupt, _
_***************************as per Guru Hukm we try to dispel our doubts. I don’t know if you are aware of Bhai Mani Singh ji Sahib who wrote “Gurbani parbodh sagar” He,also makes mistakes while interpreting Gurbani. If we do not share with each other how we shall learn? Certainly you will call it hair splitting but for me it is very important to see if the meaning given by the interpreter is really conveys the message of Guru. I******************************** Here is just an example how wonderful Gyani Bhai Mani Singh ji can make mistake and why we as Sikhs should be careful._
ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੨ ॥ ਅਖੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਵੇਖਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕੰਨਾ ਸੁਨਣਾ ॥ ਪੈਰਾ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਚਲਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਹਥਾ ਕਰਣਾ ॥ ਜੀਭੈ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਇਉ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਣਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਕੈ ਤਉ ਖਸਮੈ ਮਿਲਣਾ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 139}
Here is Gyani ji’s interpretation on page 82-83”Gurbani Parvodh”
“ That Waheguru is without eyes but being observer watches all. He hasn’t any ears but he listens to every one. He is without feet but in others’ feet His walking power is present. He is without hands but every ones hands’ power of holding is His. He is without tongue but in others languages, His power is present. This way one who understands His ordinance and by being indifference to outside world, can meet Him”
This interpretation is unacceptable, it doesn’t convey Guru message, a Sikh should be alert about that. Now let’s read Dr. Sahib Singh’s interpretation, here it is
If one sees without eyes( meaning without looking at others things etc), without ears listens( means do not heed attention to others back biting etc) if without feet walks( means stops going to bad places or to do wrong), without hands one works( doesn’t use hands to snatch from others rights etc) without tongue one speaks( who doesn’t use tongue to slander other etc) this is the way to live without ego (living while dead means living without ago). So this way one understands His ordinance. In simple words all efforts should be put to mold our mind to live without ego and by being pure)
Gyani Mani Singh ji is not just like me who just happen to be on this site, he has a good credit of influencing people and directing people to Sikhi. Here Gyani ji is dead wrong. 
On this site we have been discussing about interpretation of Gurbani, people here on this site have different views about it, I respect that. Only on one point I do give stress though, if any interpretation goes against Guru Sahib’s Principles, it should not be accepted. If that is strong language to swallow, I won’t say that but will keep saying that it doesn’t convey the message Guru ji intends to do as I have quoted one example above, the interpretation must be questioned. This kind of misinterpretation is a common place practice in Sikhs circles. When I see I try to express my concerns. That is all. *******************


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## spnadmin

namjap said:


> Aad Ji,
> 
> Why do some people find scapegoats to get out of a loosing debate ?
> 
> I thought he could take any knocks and blows. I'm disappointed for not having a worthy opponent.



No NamJap -- Sometimes feelings get hurt. You can end up feeling as if you are standing all alone. I hope Pyramid accepts my apology. This was not him finding a scapegoat. When you believe in your point of view and you want to be heard --- well, all this yelling people are doing is keeping everyone from being heard. And understood. Maybe Pyramid will accept my apology.


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## Astroboy

....and come back into the ring. I think he's just resting and will take me by surprise. I've enjoyed his spirit. I wanted to feel his spirit through his words. He motivates me. 

Here's the Guruvaak :


*ਸੂਹੀ **ਮਹਲਾ **੫ **ਗੁਣਵੰਤੀ **॥ 
सूही महला ५ गुणवंती ॥ 
Sūhī mehlā 5 guṇvanṯī. 
Soohee, Fifth Mehl, Gunvantee ~ The Worthy And Virtuous Bride: 

**ਜੋ **ਦੀਸੈ **ਗੁਰਸਿਖੜਾ **ਤਿਸੁ **ਨਿਵਿ **ਨਿਵਿ **ਲਾਗਉ **ਪਾਇ **ਜੀਉ **॥ 
जो दीसै गुरसिखड़ा तिसु निवि निवि लागउ पाइ जीउ ॥ 
Jo ḏīsai gursikẖ&shy;ṛā ṯis niv niv lāga&shy;o pā&shy;ė jī&shy;o. 
When I see a Sikh of the Guru, I humbly bow and fall at his feet. 

**ਆਖਾ **ਬਿਰਥਾ **ਜੀਅ **ਕੀ **ਗੁਰੁ **ਸਜਣੁ **ਦੇਹਿ **ਮਿਲਾਇ **ਜੀਉ **॥ 
आखा बिरथा जीअ की गुरु सजणु देहि मिलाइ जीउ ॥ 
Ākẖā birthā jī&shy;a kī gur sajaṇ ḏeh milā&shy;ė jī&shy;o. 
I tell to him the pain of my soul, and beg him to unite me with the Guru, my Best Friend. 

**ਸੋਈ **ਦਸਿ **ਉਪਦੇਸੜਾ **ਮੇਰਾ **ਮਨੁ **ਅਨਤ **ਨ **ਕਾਹੂ **ਜਾਇ **ਜੀਉ **॥ 
सोई दसि उपदेसड़ा मेरा मनु अनत न काहू जाइ जीउ ॥ 
So&shy;ī ḏas upḏėsṛā mėrā man anaṯ na kāhū jā&shy;ė jī&shy;o. 
I ask that he impart to me such an understanding, that my mind will not go out wandering anywhere else. 

**ਇਹੁ **ਮਨੁ **ਤੈ **ਕੂੰ **ਡੇਵਸਾ **ਮੈ **ਮਾਰਗੁ **ਦੇਹੁ **ਬਤਾਇ **ਜੀਉ **॥ 
इहु मनु तै कूं डेवसा मै मारगु देहु बताइ जीउ ॥ 
Ih man ṯai kūŉ dėvsā mai mārag ḏėh baṯā&shy;ė jī&shy;o. 
I dedicate this mind to you. Please, show me the Path to God. 

**ਹਉ **ਆਇਆ **ਦੂਰਹੁ **ਚਲਿ **ਕੈ **ਮੈ **ਤਕੀ **ਤਉ **ਸਰਣਾਇ **ਜੀਉ **॥ 
हउ आइआ दूरहु चलि कै मै तकी तउ सरणाइ जीउ ॥ 
Ha&shy;o ā&shy;i&shy;ā ḏẖūrahu cẖal kai mai ṯakī ṯa&shy;o sarṇā&shy;ė jī&shy;o. 
I have come so far, seeking the Protection of Your Sanctuary. 

**ਮੈ **ਆਸਾ **ਰਖੀ **ਚਿਤਿ **ਮਹਿ **ਮੇਰਾ **ਸਭੋ **ਦੁਖੁ **ਗਵਾਇ **ਜੀਉ **॥ 
मै आसा रखी चिति महि मेरा सभो दुखु गवाइ जीउ ॥ 
Mai āsā rakẖī cẖiṯ meh mėrā sabẖo ḏukẖ gavā&shy;ė jī&shy;o. 
Within my mind, I place my hopes in You; please, take my pain and suffering away! 

**ਇਤੁ **ਮਾਰਗਿ **ਚਲੇ **ਭਾਈਅੜੇ **ਗੁਰੁ **ਕਹੈ **ਸੁ **ਕਾਰ **ਕਮਾਇ **ਜੀਉ **॥ 
इतु मारगि चले भाईअड़े गुरु कहै सु कार कमाइ जीउ ॥ 
Iṯ mārag cẖalė bẖā&shy;ī&shy;aṛė gur kahai so kār kamā&shy;ė jī&shy;o. 
So walk on this Path, O sister soul-brides; do that work which the Guru tells you to do. 

**ਤਿਆਗੇਂ **ਮਨ **ਕੀ **ਮਤੜੀ **ਵਿਸਾਰੇਂ **ਦੂਜਾ **ਭਾਉ **ਜੀਉ **॥ 
तिआगें मन की मतड़ी विसारें दूजा भाउ जीउ ॥ 
Ŧi&shy;āgėŉ man kī maṯ&shy;ṛī visārėŉ ḏūjā bẖā&shy;o jī&shy;o. 
Abandon the intellectual pursuits of the mind, and forget the love of duality. 

**ਇਉ **ਪਾਵਹਿ **ਹਰਿ **ਦਰਸਾਵੜਾ **ਨਹ **ਲਗੈ **ਤਤੀ **ਵਾਉ **ਜੀਉ **॥ 
इउ पावहि हरि दरसावड़ा नह लगै तती वाउ जीउ ॥ 
I&shy;o pāvahi har ḏarsāvaṛā nah lagai ṯaṯī vā&shy;o jī&shy;o. 
In this way, you shall obtain the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan; the hot winds shall not even touch you. 

**ਹਉ **ਆਪਹੁ **ਬੋਲਿ **ਨ **ਜਾਣਦਾ **ਮੈ **ਕਹਿਆ **ਸਭੁ **ਹੁਕਮਾਉ **ਜੀਉ **॥ 
हउ आपहु बोलि न जाणदा मै कहिआ सभु हुकमाउ जीउ ॥ 
Ha&shy;o āphu bol na jāṇḏā mai kahi&shy;ā sabẖ hukmā&shy;o jī&shy;o. 
By myself, I do not even know how to speak; I speak all that the Lord commands. 

**ਹਰਿ **ਭਗਤਿ **ਖਜਾਨਾ **ਬਖਸਿਆ **ਗੁਰਿ **ਨਾਨਕਿ **ਕੀਆ **ਪਸਾਉ **ਜੀਉ **॥ 
हरि भगति खजाना बखसिआ गुरि नानकि कीआ पसाउ जीउ ॥ 
Har bẖagaṯ kẖajānā bakẖsi&shy;ā gur Nānak kī&shy;ā pasā&shy;o jī&shy;o. 
I am blessed with the treasure of the Lord's devotional worship; Guru Nanak has been kind and compassionate to me. 

**ਮੈ **ਬਹੁੜਿ **ਨ **ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ **ਭੁਖੜੀ **ਹਉ **ਰਜਾ **ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ **ਅਘਾਇ **ਜੀਉ **॥ 
मै बहुड़ि न त्रिसना भुखड़ी हउ रजा त्रिपति अघाइ जीउ ॥ 
Mai bahuṛ na ṯarisnā bẖukẖ&shy;ṛī ha&shy;o rajā ṯaripaṯ agẖā&shy;ė jī&shy;o. 
I shall never again feel hunger or thirst; I am satisfied, satiated and fulfilled. 

**ਜੋ **ਗੁਰ **ਦੀਸੈ **ਸਿਖੜਾ **ਤਿਸੁ **ਨਿਵਿ **ਨਿਵਿ **ਲਾਗਉ **ਪਾਇ **ਜੀਉ **॥੩॥ 
जो गुर दीसै सिखड़ा तिसु निवि निवि लागउ पाइ जीउ ॥३॥ 
Jo gur ḏīsai sikẖ&shy;ṛā ṯis niv niv lāga&shy;o pā&shy;ė jī&shy;o. ||3|| 
When I see a Sikh of the Guru, I humbly bow and fall at his feet. ||3||*


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## spnadmin




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## Daanveer

namjap said:


> Aad Ji,
> 
> Why do some people find scapegoats to get out of a loosing debate ?
> 
> I thought he could take any knocks and blows. I'm dissappointed for not having a worthy opponent.


 

Pyramid(Yograj) was a winner and he is a winner.

Pyramid is a winner right from the beggining. And those who were trying to prove him wrong were so scared of loosing that they started using cheap means and he proved that mistreatment right on the spot.

I hope if a statement like the above(by namjap) can stay, my statement deserves to stay as well. Or am I a lower grade SPN member!

Please forgive me If I hurt anybody's feelings.


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## Daanveer

Pyramid said:


> So in general, Only pyramid is supposed to learn ethics, not anyone else.
> 
> Good Bey and Good Luck all, I was at a wrong place. I said what I wanted to say. I hope it will(thread) not be deleted, so others can read it. There are many who will like it and will be able to get aware of the misguidance being provided by many in the form of sweet statements.
> 
> 
> WE DONT NEED ANY:
> *1. CAREFULLNESS WHILE READING GURBANI- IS IT TRUE OR NOT(!), *
> *2. **CAREFULLNESS WHILE BELIEVING GUR WAK- IS IT CORRUPT OR BELIEVABLE(!),*
> *3. **KNOWING THAT BHATT BANI IS NOT GURBANI, AVOID THAT(!),*
> *4. **KNOWING ALL THAT BANI THAT YOU CONSIDER AVOIDING(!),*
> *5. **CONSIDERING THAT THE LITERAL MEANING LEADS TO CONFUSION AND WRONG BELIEFS, WE NEED MORTALS TO DESCRIBE THE BANI'S CORRECT MEANING WHICH(BANI) IS WRITTEN AND COMPILED BY IMMORTALS(GURU/SAINT/GOD REALIZED)(!), *
> *6. **UNDERSTANDING THAT LITERAL MEANING AND MATAPHORS CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY COMMON PEOPLE, THAT UNDERSTANDING IS ONLY A PROPERTY OF A FEW SELECTED ONES, *
> *7. **FAITH THAT THE MEANING IN THE METAPHOR IS DIFFERENT THAN THE MEANING IN REAL,*
> *8. **KNOWING THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE(MORTAL) OUT THERE BETTER THAN OUR GURU, WHO CAN DEBATE OVER GURBANI AND TELL US THE REAL MEANING, WHICH OUR GURU(IMMORTAL BEING) IS UNABLE TO SEND ACROSS.*
> 
> *GOOD BEY ALL- GURU NANAK IS ALWAYS WITH US.*


 
Pyramid Ji,

I cant say about this website, but from now on, I will make sure that your essay(first post) goes on every other website I visit.

Thanks for guiding us in such a bold way. I am inspired to make my brothers and sisters, friends and family, aquaintances and strangers aware of  such practices.

Thanks a lot.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi

Pk70 ji,


> ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੨ ॥ ਅਖੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਵੇਖਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕੰਨਾ ਸੁਨਣਾ ॥ ਪੈਰਾ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਚਲਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਹਥਾ ਕਰਣਾ ॥ ਜੀਭੈ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਇਉ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਣਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਕੈ ਤਉ ਖਸਮੈ ਮਿਲਣਾ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 139}
> Here is Gyani ji’s interpretation on page 82-83”Gurbani Parvodh”
> “ That Waheguru is without eyes but being observer watches all. He hasn’t any ears but he listens to every one. He is without feet but in others’ feet His walking power is present. He is without hands but every ones hands’ power of holding is His. He is without tongue but in others languages, His power is present. This way one who understands His ordinance and by being indifference to outside world, can meet Him”
> This interpretation is unacceptable, it doesn’t convey Guru message, a Sikh should be alert about that. Now let’s read Dr. Sahib Singh’s interpretation, here it is
> If one sees without eyes( meaning without looking at others things etc), without ears listens( means do not heed attention to others back biting etc) if without feet walks( means stops going to bad places or to do wrong), without hands one works( doesn’t use hands to snatch from others rights etc) without tongue one speaks( who doesn’t use tongue to slander other etc) this is the way to live without ego (living while dead means living without ago). So this way one understands His ordinance. In simple words all efforts should be put to mold our mind to live without ego and by being pure)
> Gyani Mani Singh ji is not just like me who just happen to be on this site, he has a good credit of influencing people and directing people to Sikhi. Here Gyani ji is dead wrong.
> On this site we have been discussing about interpretation of Gurbani, people here on this site have different views about it, I respect that. Only on one point I do give stress though, if any interpretation goes against Guru Sahib’s Principles, it should not be accepted. If that is strong language to swallow, I won’t say that but will keep saying that it doesn’t convey the message Guru ji intends to do as I have quoted one example above, the interpretation must be questioned. This kind of misinterpretation is a common place practice in Sikhs circles. When I see I try to express my concerns. That is all. *******************



Sorry to disappoint you. Although your explaination is much better than the former but it is also incorrect. Guru ji is describing here is a deeper view of  spirituality.  It is an experience of being in a meditative state. It is a high level of awareness that cannot be explained but only experienced.

I find it is pointless to elaborate deep philosphical issues in this forum. There is not person of merit here. My sympathies are with you and Namjap ji.



> WE DONT NEED ANY:
> *1. CAREFULLNESS WHILE READING GURBANI- IS IT TRUE OR NOT(!), *
> *2. **CAREFULLNESS WHILE BELIEVING GUR WAK- IS IT CORRUPT OR BELIEVABLE(!),*
> *3. **KNOWING THAT BHATT BANI IS NOT GURBANI, AVOID THAT(!),*
> *4. **KNOWING ALL THAT BANI THAT YOU CONSIDER AVOIDING(!),*
> *5. **CONSIDERING THAT THE LITERAL MEANING LEADS TO CONFUSION AND WRONG BELIEFS, WE NEED MORTALS TO DESCRIBE THE BANI'S CORRECT MEANING WHICH(BANI) IS WRITTEN AND COMPILED BY IMMORTALS(GURU/SAINT/GOD REALIZED)(!), *
> *6. **UNDERSTANDING THAT LITERAL MEANING AND MATAPHORS CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY COMMON PEOPLE, THAT UNDERSTANDING IS ONLY A PROPERTY OF A FEW SELECTED ONES, *
> *7. **FAITH THAT THE MEANING IN THE METAPHOR IS DIFFERENT THAN THE MEANING IN REAL,*
> *8. **KNOWING THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE(MORTAL) OUT THERE BETTER THAN OUR GURU, WHO CAN DEBATE OVER GURBANI AND TELL US THE REAL MEANING, WHICH OUR GURU(IMMORTAL BEING) IS UNABLE TO SEND ACROSS.*
> 
> *GOOD BEY ALL- GURU NANAK IS ALWAYS WITH US.*


If you lack understanding then accept it as your own weakness and improve on it. In one of your post some time back you said something to the effect.

"Moorakh naal na rujiae"

In keeping with the above verse I decided not to respond to your thread. You are very confused.

If the above is the limit to your understanding then as Guru ji said once "Bassey Raho"

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> Aad0002 says: "In your recent comments you have referred to other members as termites, atheists, followers of an aetheist, doubt-raisers, anti-Gurmat, under-miners of Sikhism, liars, and more. *No one individual has been singled out*, however you seem to have taken aim at the entire discussion. No matter how wrong or how deluded some may be in your eyes, please debate the issues, not personalities."


 
Kala Afghana is a declared tankiya and excommunicated from the Sikh Panth. If you listen to his talks, he is a declared atheist. He and his supporters, followers of Sikh Missionary groups are in fact doubt-raisers since they challenge the legitimacy of Sikh beliefs and in particular, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani. They are anti-Gurmat because the substance of what they preach is contrary to Sikhism AND the express directives of Akal Takht. By doing these activities of misleading other people AWAY from Sikh teaching are undermining Sikh religion they are in fact termites working to undermine the foundations of the Sikh faith. 

If "other members" hold and preach these views then they choose to single themselves out. To say I have aimed at the entire discussion when it has been stated by mahjor Sikh bodies including Akal Takht that NO NINDYA OF SRI DASAM GRANTH SAHIB JI BANI IS TO BE ALLOWED, then you are right. Where this has occured, I have pointed out it is in direct violation of the edict of Akal Takht Sahib Ji.

*Akal Takht itself has declared these people as mischievious and their message as trash talk.*



> On November, 26, 2006 Sri Akal Takht Sahib issued a directive that labeled those criticizing Sri Dasam Granth as "ਸ਼ਰਾਰਤੀ ਅਨਸਰ" (mischievous) and their message as "ਕੂੜ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ" (trash talk) ; it also requested Panthic scholars to give fitting reply to these detractors (ਢੁਕਵਾਂ ਉੱਤਰ ਦੇਣ).
> 
> http://www.panthic.org/news/123/ARTICLE/3913/2008-02-21.html


 

Now, I have not singled any person out as wearing this description. But the description is valid for all points raised. Their is to be _*no nindya*_ of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji tolerated by Sikhs. And If this discussion is taking the position *to support a declared tankiya's views*, then yes, I am against that discussion, because Akal Takht has asked the Sikh sangat NOT to support such discussions.

I have never once said anything about any personality. But you may feel free to discriminate against my posting here. I expect it, because that has happened in the past. But I cannot modify my views as I am conforming them to the position of Akal Takht and not to you. It isn't benign conversation when people challenge the authority of Akal Takht and support positions of a declared tankiya which the Akal Takht Sahib Ji has called "trash talk." If some forum members wish to support the tankiya and promote his views, then it is precisely those views which come under criticism and fire, and not any personality. 

I am challenging the expressed views and positions, not any person. Stop accusing me of debating personalities falsely. I have nothing to say about any personal character of individuals. I am solely adressing apostate views which are declared anti-Gurmat. Because they ARE in fact, anti-Gurmat. Not _"in my eyes,"_ but as declared by Akal Takht, and major Sikh bodies SGPC, Damdami Taksal, AKJ,etc. 

If bani is not bani, but only some is _real_ bani...if Guruji is not in form of the Vaheguru, then on what foundation does Sikhism stand?  Anyone's opinion is equal to Guru?  Maybe they believe modern scholars are wiser than Guru? They are asserting Gurbani can be debated to death and taken apart piece by piece.  And who would say this position is acceptable and not anti-Gurmat?  Either it is all true or none of it is true.  There can be no middle ground debate on Guru or Gurbani.


> Yesterday and today, das read a few very interesting comments on the net. Sharing with all to know everybody’s view:
> A very highly regarded, knowledgeable Gusikh telling a new Gursikh: “With all due respect I urge you not to take a a few Sikhs' blind theory as a true Sikh tenent. What they are doing on this site they just select a few Guru waak or some Bhatt bani to prove their case that guru is God.”
> 
> Source: (Literal Meaning of Gurbani)http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20491-literal-meaning-of-gurbani-2.html
> 
> Another Gursikh telling a Gursikh: "I am first and foremost a Sikh Historian who has studied patetrns and behavior within Sikhism. This concept of thinking Guru's are God is not new and emerges from time to time and is a hangover of our Hindu past."
> 
> Source: (Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the...)http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/19100-nanak-is-guru-nanak-lord-himself-43.html
> 
> Another Gursikh Telling a Gursikh: ""Gur Parmeshar eko jaan". A true Guru will never say he is God but sometimes the Guru is left with no choice and for the sake of progress he will make a statement that can be misinterpreted by others. Now ***** is not going to move forward unless for him Guru is not God. "
> 
> Source: (Literal Meaning of Gurbani)http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20491-literal-meaning-of-gurbani-2.html
> 
> Another Gursikh’s comments:“_In order to deabte this properly let us have the entire shabad from page”_
> 
> Source: (Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the...)http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/19100-nanak-is-guru-nanak-lord-himself-42.html
> 
> To das the above lines read like- don’t believe in some Bani and believe in some. It also reads that there are some Gur Waks or Bhatt Bani that is UNTRUE, NOT WORTH BELIEVING, or CORRUPT. It also read to das that all those Sikhs are blind who believe all the Bani to be True as IT IS.


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## Archived_Member1

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> I find it is pointless to elaborate deep philosphical issues in this forum. There is not person of merit here.





is this kind of mass insult really necessary?   

Mr. Traveling Stranger...  if you find it pointless to discuss "philosphical" (your spelling, not mine) issues here, why do you continue to do it?   isn't it kind of silly to do something repeatedly if you know it's pointless anyway?  perhaps your time could better be spent in the company of greater people than us?

just a thought from this pointless forum reader.


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## spnadmin

Harjas ji

 As mod, I don't have any problem with statements like this one below because they are expressions of opinion accompanied by fact.

_Kala Afghana is a declared tankiya and excommunicated from the Sikh Panth. If you listen to his talks, he is a declared atheist. He and his supporters, followers of Sikh Missionary groups are in fact doubt-raisers since they challenge the legitimacy of Sikh beliefs and in particular, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani. They are anti-Gurmat because the substance of what they preach is contrary to Sikhism AND the express directives of Akal Takht.  _But one is jumping to conclusions when SPN members are also described this way. And it is unfair. The termite part is not necessary. _
By doing these activities of misleading other people AWAY from Sikh teaching are undermining Sikh religion they are in fact termites working to undermine the foundations of the Sikh faith. 

_The part below works as an expression of opinion and you are debating an issue not a person in this section. OK._
If "other members" hold and preach these views then they choose to single themselves out. 
_
Even if Akal Takht were to call people names, they are doing that in their own context, and people can decide whether it is dignified or not. I have noticed that arguments get hot and heavy in the Punjab too. SPN asks usto debate the issue, not the person.  That is our policy. This is an Internet forum. That is our context.
_
To say I have aimed at the entire discussion when it has been stated by mahjor Sikh bodies including Akal Takht that NO NINDYA OF SRI DASAM GRANTH SAHIB JI BANI IS TO BE ALLOWED, then you are right. Where this has occured, I have pointed out it is in direct violation of the edict of Akal Takht Sahib Ji._ 

 Speaking not-as-mod, my opinion is exactly the same as yours. But when these threads travel down the name-calling path, there is no way to get things back to a discussion. Thanks for returning to the topic so we can vet our points of view.


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## spnadmin

Jasleen ji

Mass insults are another moderation problem. As long as ad hominem arguments are avoided, we have to let it go and let others form their own judgments about the insult and the person who does this.

Do not be discouraged.


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## Sikh80

Respected aad002 ji,

For the benefit of all those who  are not able to keep the track would you very kindly state as to what exactly is being discussed now. I am lost. Kindly state in brief as to what is the outstanding issue that is not resolved. 

I am also not good at spellings 

Thanks and regards.


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## pk70

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> Pk70 ji,
> 
> 
> Sorry to disappoint you. Although your explaination is much better than the former but it is also incorrect. Guru ji is describing here is a deeper view of spirituality. It is an experience of being in a meditative state. It is a high level of awareness that cannot be explained but only experienced.
> 
> Ekmusafir_ajnabi ji
> 
> Truely I am not disappointed. This explanation is by Dr Sahib Singh ji whom I regard a lot. You have disagreed with him, you should have posted your "correct" version of explanation to share with SPN fellows. Nothing is wrong with pointing out a point if left by some one.I personally feel he did good job because whatever he has said, only man with high spiritual state of mind can do otherwise for regular people like me it is just a dream. Your interpretation will be highly appreciated. Thanks a lot.


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## spnadmin

Sikh80 ji

You are asking me, one who is also lost and is also not very good at spelling.  Every time I think an outline of the discussion would help -- who said what, who disagreed, what are all the opposing points of view, why there is disagreement, what new thought emerged, something happens. And instead I have to go around deleting remarks, reminding people of forum rules, and losing my motivation. 

Maybe I can do this in the morning -- it is after midnight here -- and post it. But would that help?


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## Sikh80

It is perfectly o.k. I am sorry for the trouble. Kindly do as per your convenience.

Regards


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## Astroboy

*Quoted By pk70*

_Here is just an example how wonderful Gyani Bhai Mani Singh ji can make mistake and why we as Sikhs should be careful._
*ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੨ ॥ ਅਖੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਵੇਖਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕੰਨਾ ਸੁਨਣਾ ॥ ਪੈਰਾ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਚਲਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਹਥਾ ਕਰਣਾ ॥ ਜੀਭੈ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਇਉ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਣਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਕੈ ਤਉ ਖਸਮੈ ਮਿਲਣਾ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 139}*
*Here is Gyani ji’s interpretation on page 82-83”Gurbani Parvodh”*
“ That Waheguru is without eyes but being observer watches all. He hasn’t any ears but he listens to every one. He is without feet but in others’ feet His walking power is present. He is without hands but every ones hands’ power of holding is His. He is without tongue but in others languages, His power is present. This way one who understands His ordinance and by being indifference to outside world, can meet Him”
This interpretation is unacceptable, it doesn’t convey Guru message, a Sikh should be alert about that. *Now let’s read Dr. Sahib Singh’s interpretation, here it is*
If one sees without eyes( meaning without looking at others things etc), without ears listens( means do not heed attention to others back biting etc) if without feet walks( means stops going to bad places or to do wrong), without hands one works( doesn’t use hands to snatch from others rights etc) without tongue one speaks( who doesn’t use tongue to slander other etc) this is the way to live without ego (living while dead means living without ago). So this way one understands His ordinance. In simple words all efforts should be put to mold our mind to live without ego and by being pure)
Gyani Mani Singh ji is not just like me who just happen to be on this site, he has a good credit of influencing people and directing people to Sikhi. Here Gyani ji is dead wrong. 
On this site we have been discussing about interpretation of Gurbani, people here on this site have different views about it, I respect that. Only on one point I do give stress though, if any interpretation goes against Guru Sahib’s Principles, it should not be accepted. If that is strong language to swallow, I won’t say that but will keep saying that it doesn’t convey the message Guru ji intends to do as I have quoted one example above, the interpretation must be questioned. This kind of misinterpretation is a common place practice in Sikhs circles. When I see I try to express my concerns. That is all. *******************
__________________
HAR bisrat sda khuari Mehla 5
pk70 

*Pk70 Ji and Ekmusafir Ji,*

I also feel that Prof. Sahib Singh missed the point when using only intellect to decipher this vaak. An aspirant needs to develop spiritual muscle in stages in order that unfoldment happens within one's self - Ajapa Jap going on at all times in an Unspeakable Language. Blind faith is one of the main obstacles to overcome. What we simply listen to, read or follow without investigating as to what and where it will lead to, is blind faith. If one is careless to forget the end while following the means, and does not see whether he is nearing the end or not, it is still blind faith. When one goes to a Master and listens attentively to the explanations given by Him on the subject of gaining Self-knowledge by self-analysis, duly supported by one or more quotations from the valuable sayings of various Saints, he is intellectually convinced to tread the path as an experimental measure and act up to what the Master says with faith for the time being. This is the first stepping-stone to learn about Reality. When he has the first-hand experience, of whatever degree it may be, he is convinced and progresses from day to day. Today, man listens to talks, lectures and sermons, accepts and believes these all his life and takes for granted that he has been placed firmly on the way to salvation. But when death comes with all its sufferings, pangs of separation and fears of the unknown, he realizes his mistake. Man's life-long habit of attachment to the body, occupies all his thoughts, while friends, doctors, relatives and priests stand by helpless and despairing. 

Another misunderstanding which Prof. Sahib Singh created is in the intepretation of Guruvaak which starts : Ghar Mein Ghar Dekhai De, So Satgur Purukh Sujaan. He left out essential words which he could only have known by real experiences.


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## pk70

namjap;
Blind faith is one of the main obstacles to overcome. What we simply listen to said:
			
		

> Another misunderstanding which Prof. Sahib Singh created is in the intepretation of Guruvaak which starts : Ghar Mein Ghar Dekhai De, So Satgur Purukh Sujaan. He left out essential words which he could only have known by real experiences.


 
Namjap ji
Thanks. Dr Sahib Singh is one of the best scholars I like; however, mistakes occur. People try their best. We should not just call them people with special agenda etc. Sikhs are supposed to be truth seekers, should always open to finding the real message Guru Sahiban tried to convey. If any mist is out there, this is the only way to dispel it. There are some people who just write for the sake of making money; however, there are those ones too who are very serious to find if some thing is missed out. Their aim is to follow Gurbani as Guru Sahiban ask to follow, nothing more than that. No one can convince any one, it is the open mind that decides if something is said is worth accepting or not.


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## Astroboy

Pk70 Ji,

I agree that Prof. Sahib Singh is the best scholar on Sri Guru Granth Sahib and also look forward to a continued posting from you in your new thread : http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20531-a-journey-to-him-described-satguru.html

It was my ego that was talking, sorry I let it loose. Ekmusafir has more common sense than me because he stopped talking before me. I thought I had won the debate, but actually lost to my ego. It takes a person like you to show me the mirror and masks that I wear which hides my realself. 

Thank you, paaji, thank you.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> The entire issue of challenging bani has to do with this manipulation of Truth. It is one thing to question, seeking deeper understanding. But to undermine, refute and challenge basic Sikh teaching isn't questioning at all...it is like the termite seeking to destroy foundation.
> 
> All these fine hair-splitting positions are designed to erode the authenticity and authority of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, Rehat Maryada, vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji and vaaran of Bhai Nand Lal Ji, and various historical commentaries which all the Takhts analyze, weigh and consider. These arguments are cleverly constructed to raise doubt in the mind of Guru's Sikhs about institutions of Gursikhi such as Kande-ki Pohul, daily recitation of nitenam, panj kakkars, and the underpinnings of Rehat Maryada and the very existence of the Khalsa. In short, they invent a new kind of Sikhi which please the secular person who doesn't want commitment to a Guru.
> 
> If one listens to the actual words of people like Kala Afghana, he goes so far as to challenge there is no atma...there is no karam...there is no paap...there is no Vaheguru. The man is an atheist acting as a missionary to preach the eroding disbeliefs and instill doubt in Sikhism. His supporters are more clever than he...they quote sweet Gurbani, and then challenge only certain things to erode confidence, like taking only a small step in an atheistic, anti-Gurmat direction.
> 
> To have discussions is fine. Even to have sincere questions is fine. But to impose atheistic secular philosophy into Gurmat Sikh teaching creates an uproar. And why not? It isn't clever talk anymore. Its a direct challenge to the legitimacy of Sikhism, history of Sikhism, culture of Sikhism and essential Sikh belief and institutions. It becomes anti-Gurmat missionary propaganda against the explicit directives of Akal Takht.
> 
> Go and debate whatever you want. Accept this but don't accept that. Take this part but tear apart the legitimacy of that part.... Once someone becomes a PREACHER of something against Sikh teaching on a public forum, and challenges the authority of Akal Takht on these matters...HE ENDS THE DISCUSSION for Sikhs.
> 
> *When someone starts misleading people it is in fact a serious cause for worry.*
> 
> And thats what these challenges and underminings are about. To lead people AWAY from Gurmat Gursikhi. This is how insidious this is...if we were having a discussion with atheists, secularists, Muslims, Christians, etc. We could present a Sikh position while respecting their right of difference. But this is a Sikh forum. And these debates are happening between Sikh people eroding the validity of Gursikh teaching. To what purpose? To justify lifestyle in contradiction to Gurmat while having the name Gurmat? It is a lie, a fraud, an audacity, and a challenge.
> 
> These are the same people who tell you it's okay for a Sikh to cut hair. To cut a child's hair until he is of age to decide for himself. They say a Sikh doesn't need amrit, and say there is no need for amrit at all because it is just self-righteous hypocrisy. These people take and pick what they choose from Gurbani, and go so far as to deny that some bani is even bani. They say don't believe the vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji, or vaaran of Bhai Nand Lal Ji or supporting vaaran of the Rehat Mayada, or even rehitnamay...they say it is only opinion...and they have a better, more informed, modern opinion! In short, they make an atheism out of a religion! They make an individual patchwork out of what should be surrendered submission to a SatGuru! They are making THEMSELVES equal to Guru! Because they interpret for themselves only what they want.
> 
> But that is not the case in Gurmat Gursikhi. Every bania, and every vaaran which have been accepted by the Takhts since the foundation of Sikhi all agree and cross-confirm. There is no contradiction at all.


Harjas ji




> As mod, I don't have any problem with statements like this one below because they are expressions of opinion accompanied by fact.
> 
> _Kala Afghana is a declared tankiya and excommunicated from the Sikh Panth. If you listen to his talks, he is a declared atheist. He and his supporters, followers of Sikh Missionary groups are in fact doubt-raisers since they challenge the legitimacy of Sikh beliefs and in particular, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani. They are anti-Gurmat because the substance of what they preach is contrary to Sikhism AND the express directives of Akal Takht. _But one is jumping to conclusions when SPN members are also described this way. And it is unfair. The termite part is not necessary.
> _By doing these activities of misleading other people AWAY from Sikh teaching are undermining Sikh religion they are in fact termites working to undermine the foundations of the Sikh faith. _
> 
> The part below works as an expression of opinion and you are debating an issue not a person in this section. OK.
> _If "other members" hold and preach these views then they choose to single themselves out. _
> 
> Even if Akal Takht were to call people names, they are doing that in their own context, and people can decide whether it is dignified or not. I have noticed that arguments get hot and heavy in the Punjab too. SPN asks usto debate the issue, not the person. That is our policy. This is an Internet forum. That is our context.
> 
> _To say I have aimed at the entire discussion when it has been stated by mahjor Sikh bodies including Akal Takht that NO NINDYA OF SRI DASAM GRANTH SAHIB JI BANI IS TO BE ALLOWED, then you are right. Where this has occured, I have pointed out it is in direct violation of the edict of Akal Takht Sahib Ji._
> 
> Speaking not-as-mod, my opinion is exactly the same as yours. But when these threads travel down the name-calling path, there is no way to get things back to a discussion. Thanks for returning to the topic so we can vet our points of view.


But one is jumping to conclusions when SPN members are also described this way. And it is unfair. The termite part is not necessary. 
*************************************

No one is being singled out for name-calling here. I am addressing a challenge to the legitimacy of Gurbani itself. *******************************


> But when these threads travel down the name-calling path, there is no way to get things back to a discussion. Thanks for returning to the topic so we can vet our points of view.
> [/quote*****************************************
> But one is jumping to conclusions when SPN members are also described this way. And it is unfair.


Y*********************************



> SPN asks usto debate the issue, not the person. That is our policy.


Indeed. Kindly show what person was being debated and how my post derailed the issue and degenerated into the name-calling and person bashing you allege. Thank you. And if you cannot on the basis of my own words, I kindly ask you to stop alleging what I did not say.

*************************************



> Even if Akal Takht were to call people names, they are doing that in their own context, and people can decide whether it is dignified or not.


Are you saying that when Akal Takht in the authority corrects the activities of a declared tankiya and his supporters and addresses them as mischevious and says their talk against Gurbani is "trash talk." That we can decide for ourselves whether Akal Takht Sahib Ji has any dignity in doing this? And even in this you do not once criticize the mischevious activities of the tankiya and his supporters but attack my post and put it in a false light and criticize the dignity of Akal Takht?
**************************

Calling someone a name, and being "unfair" to them as you allege is nowhere in my post. Or are you saying Akal Takht Sahib Ji is being unfair to the alleged tankiya and his supporters by condemning the actions they are taking to erode the confidence of the Sikh community in Guru's bani?

Because this is clearly the issue. It has been directly addressed. It is not derailed at all in this post. The only derailing of the issue was your accusation of name-calling and personal attack against a forum member(s). That was a complete derailment of my post and the validity of the points raised, DESPITE it being a quote from the position of Akal Takht Sahib in these matters.
**********************

The "position" about anti-Gurmat lifestyles being behind the challenge to bani outside of Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji isn't relevent? How many arguments on this forum deal with challenges to Sikh teaching on the basis of wanting a homosexual marriage, or to be mona, or to criticize the panj kakkars and amrit? Or to drink and smoke, party, have relations with not the wife...and still be labeled...the Guru's Sikh? To say modern society does not even need the Khalsa? To say Guru didn't mean for their to be Khalsa because this bani was not in Shabad Guru Ji Maharaaj? Because groups of people are saying these things. That is the point of the criticism of bani. It is direct attack on the institution of the Khalsa Panth. It is direct intent to undermine Sikh teaching and Sikh morality. 

If people (in general, not particular) such as Kala Afghana do not believe in karma, do not believe Guruji is in form of Vaheguru to speak timeless truth, do not believe in life after death...why should people be good? Why should people try to live with dharam? Why sacrifice your life for anything? Why not just party and have a great time? Why would we listen to bani at all? Why would we have belief in Shabad Guru Ji at all?

It isn't a lie, a fraud, an audacity and a challenge to Gurmat teaching to support these positions which challenge the legitimacy of Gurbani? It isn't the mischevious intent of certain groups to undermine the legitimacy of amritdhari Khalsa by attacking the validity of bani which supports the existence of Khalsa? Most particularly those bani supporting the Rehat Maryada and proper behaviors?

************************


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi

jasleen_kaur said:


> is this kind of mass insult really necessary?
> 
> Mr. Traveling Stranger...  if you find it pointless to discuss "philosphical" (your spelling, not mine) issues here, why do you continue to do it?   isn't it kind of silly to do something repeatedly if you know it's pointless anyway?  perhaps your time could better be spent in the company of greater people than us?
> 
> just a thought from this pointless forum reader.
> [/color]



I was expecting this kind of response from you Jasleen Kaur.  A student  of  Spirituality  should not  get so  impatient. There is a right time and place to release knowledge. Only then it shall bear fruit. As a spiritual candidate do not be so impulsive. Knowledge  is received as  "Parshad" and for that one has to humble oneself.  
"Mithat nivi Nanka Gunn Changayaaiaan tatt" 

It is the Gardner that decides which flower is ready to be plucked and not the flower itself.  So exercise restraint.

There is a saying "Bin maange moti milley, Mangey milley na bheekh". Intimidation will not bear fruit. No bad feeling for what you have said. 

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi

pk70 said:


> Ekmusafir_ajnabi ji
> 
> Truely I am not disappointed. This explanation is by Dr Sahib Singh ji whom I regard a lot. You have disagreed with him, you should have posted your "correct" version of explanation to share with SPN fellows. Nothing is wrong with pointing out a point if left by some one.I personally feel he did good job because whatever he has said, only man with high spiritual state of mind can do otherwise for regular people like me it is just a dream. Your interpretation will be highly appreciated. Thanks a lot.



Pk70 ji,

There are certain vaaks in SGGS that are an account of personal experiences. The Shabad you have mentioned is an actual experience. You truly experience what is said in the shabad. Only one who has experienced it can confirm it. I feel it needs no explanation. It speaks for itself.

I could say it is like being in a state of Comma or It is Sunn samadhi or a living death. Having said that it stil remains unexplained. All these will mean nothing if one has not had the experience. 

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## pk70

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> Pk70 ji,
> 
> There are certain vaaks in SGGS that are an account of personal experiences. The Shabad you have mentioned is an actual experience. You truly experience what is said in the shabad. Only one who has experienced it can confirm it. I feel it needs no explanation. It speaks for itself.
> 
> I could say it is like being in a state of Comma or It is Sunn samadhi or a living death. Having said that it stil remains unexplained. All these will mean nothing if one has not had the experience.
> 
> ekmusafir_ajnabi


 
ekmusafir_ajnabi jio

Thanks, I got the point. Actually you have explained the way I wished.
It clears the guess and  the mist which is created by some interpreters. I am glad you did care to point this fact out for us. Thanks again.


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## Archived_Member1

<<<<<<<< deleted >>>>>>>>>>>


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## pk70

namjap said:


> Pk70 Ji,
> 
> 
> 
> It was my ego that was talking, sorry I let it loose. Ekmusafir has more common sense than me because he stopped talking before me. I thought I had won the debate, but actually lost to my ego. It takes a person like you to show me the mirror and masks that I wear which hides my realself.
> 
> Thank you, paaji, thank you.


 

namjap ji

It was not your ego. The ego displays a different behaviour like ridicule others when one finds others are wrong. Actually your interest to go deep down to the message Guru ji conveys, is praise worthy. Ek musafie-ajnabi ji has just pointed out about the very personal experience of Guru jio . In that context, the interpreters some time just miss it. It is very true. All the same Dr. Sahib Singh ji has done excellent
job. I am pleased to know that you have very sincere desire to follow Guru ji. My personal best wishes to you !!!!!!!!


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## pk70

Real prayer needs no words, no gesture, no thoughts. A real prayer only comes from the Lord.​
In true prayer there is no worshipper and worship; there is only the worshipped. ​A true prayer needs no reward; it is a reward in itself.​

Baba Narinder ​
Sikh 80 ji
Your post contians a lot; however, baba Narinder (who is he, I dont know)says, is very practical for a true seeker. While praying even if we start with our Guru Sahiban by meditating on them; it ends right there where His presence is felt. If that is felt powerfully, nothing is left but HIM. How many can feel that way, I dont know. I strongly feel that while doing prayer no materialistic things ever should be begged. Prayer is another chance to be with Him, Satguru ji says
" tera ek naam tare sansaar
mai eha aas eho aadhar Sri (24)
( your Naam alone brings liberation to the whole world. In that alone lies my hope and that alone is my sole prop(support).)
While living in this world, we should always bear in our mind as per Guru Waak
jis da ditta khavna, tis kahye sabaas Asa 474
(say Hail to HIM who gives us all that we eat)
Only a chance to have Him in prayer should never be missed or distracted with a list of demands( which drag us from where we desire to get out)
Good job Sikh 80


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## Archived_Member1

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> I was expecting this kind of response from you Jasleen Kaur.  A student  of  Spirituality  should not  get so  impatient. There is a right time and place to release knowledge. Only then it shall bear fruit. As a spiritual candidate do not be so impulsive. Knowledge  is received as  "Parshad" and for that one has to humble oneself.
> "Mithat nivi Nanka Gunn Changayaaiaan tatt"
> 
> It is the Gardner that decides which flower is ready to be plucked and not the flower itself.  So exercise restraint.
> 
> There is a saying "Bin maange moti milley, Mangey milley na bheekh". Intimidation will not bear fruit. No bad feeling for what you have said.
> 
> ekmusafir_ajnabi



intimidation was not meant, stated, or implied.

thank you for instructing me.

i would ask humbly that you please refrain from insulting the entire community, it makes everyone feel bad, it's not very helpful, nor is it fitting for someone of your stature.

MODS, please allow me to ask this small favor without having to delete it again.  i mean no harm.  i have rephrased my words to show this.


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## spnadmin

Amazing.


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## jahan_bakshi

well sikh80... 

dont u think u are getting too personal over the issuse .. its a forum where 'we' are free to express ourselves .. 'we' are free to think and make ppl think as well in a differnt manner i mean its a forum where 'we' all can grow:roll:


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> But one is jumping to conclusions when SPN members are also described this way. And it is unfair. The termite part is not necessary.
> *************************************
> 
> No one is being singled out for name-calling here. I am addressing a challenge to the legitimacy of Gurbani itself. *******************************
> 
> Quote:
> But when these threads travel down the name-calling path, there is no way to get things back to a discussion. Thanks for returning to the topic so we can vet our points of view.
> [/quote*****************************************
> But one is jumping to conclusions when SPN members are also described this way. And it is unfair.
> 
> Y*********************************
> 
> Quote:
> SPN asks usto debate the issue, not the person. That is our policy.
> 
> Indeed. Kindly show what person was being debated and how my post derailed the issue and degenerated into the name-calling and person bashing you allege. Thank you. And if you cannot on the basis of my own words, I kindly ask you to stop alleging what I did not say.
> 
> *************************************


I find it amusing that aad0002 has deleted the hell out of my latest post for allegedly finding objectionable "debate the issue not the person" statements, when I am asking him directly as moderator (he is the only person) what he is finding objectionable. To ask him directly is not allowed, so he is deleting because it is asking a person. Yet he fails to substantiate what is the objection when I am asking what is the objection. In addition, I reposted the initial post in it's entirety which he objected to...and not once did he make any deletion. There is no objection. Those who undermine the authority of Sikh belief and the supportive Gurbani against the express wishes of Akal Takht Sahib Ji act as termites to erode the foundation of Gursikhi. And there is no name-calling, no attack, no personal debate in these words. Stop deliberately misconstruing my words. At least have the courtesy to ban me, and stop deleting my posts and saying they say what is not there in the words so all can see the kind of forum you have.

It is clear the degree of prejudice and blacklisting on this forum by the continuous deletions of my posts and not answering what is the objection with proof in the post itself, but attacking the post and saying it says what is not there. There is NO name-calling at all. And if I can't ask the moderator specifically who is deleting and accusing and finding huge objection with my posts, I must conclude that I am essentially blacklisted as a forum participant.

Thanks. I assumed as much would happen, as it has happened the last time I posted here.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

I find it a point of honor to be blacklisted off a forum which tolerates and promotes doing nindya of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani and Rehitnamay against the express wishes of Akal Takht Sahib Ji. The harm is yours to allow only the viewpoints which undermine the legitimacy of Gurbani. That is not freedom of expression. Obviously I am not accorded the same freedom.


----------



## Admin

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> I find it a point of honor to be blacklisted off a forum which tolerates and promotes doing nindya of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji bani and Rehitnamay against the express wishes of Akal Takht Sahib Ji. The harm is yours to allow only the viewpoints which undermine the legitimacy of Gurbani. That is not freedom of expression. Obviously I am not accorded the same freedom.



* Harjas Ji*, 

Your allegations are quite baseless... Please quote from entire SPN, where SPN administration or Sevadaars have promoted the criticism of Bani? Religion and Philosophy are general but unique for each person's understanding and progress. If you disagree, simply accept the difference and ask for information you may not know. Un-necessary bragging, trash talk, childish arguements only take us away from the topic in hand. Please avoid them at any cost.  

Who and how SPN has blacklisted you we fail to understand, its a false allegation? You are able to post comments in all the forums. We have more important things to do  than singling you out from 6,000 odd members. Calling fellow members termites or name calling represents a fallacy in your mindset, and goes just like any other angry outburst, which SPN does and will discourage at all costs. 

We have checked up and find that only those comments have been erased from your posts which are derogatory to the fellow members. We fully support our Forum Leaders in such actions of cleaning up the network.

Please stick to SPN posting rule "*Debate the issue and not the person*" and we assure you that no one will ever bother fiddling with your posts.

Best Regards

SPN Administration.


----------



## Archived_Member1

Aman Singh said:


> Harjap Ji,
> 
> Your allegations are quite baseless... Please quote from entire SPN, where SPN administration or Sevadaars have promoted the criticism of Bani? Religion and Philosophy are general but unique for each person's understanding and progress. If you disagree, simply accept the difference and ask for information you may not know. Un-necessary bragging, trash talk, childish arguements only take us away from the topic in hand. Please avoid them at any cost.
> 
> Who and how SPN has blacklisted you we fail to understand, its a false allegation? You are able to post comments in all the forums. We have more important things to do  than singling you out from 6,000 odd members. Calling fellow members termites or name calling represents a fallacy in your mindset, and goes just like any other angry outburst, which SPN does and will discourage at all costs.
> 
> We have checked up and find that only those comments have been erased from your posts which are derogatory to the fellow members. We fully support our Forum Leaders in such actions of cleaning up the network.
> 
> Please stick to SPN posting rule "*Debate the issue and not the person*" and we assure you that no one will ever bother fiddling with your posts.
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> SPN Administration.




Aman ji, i know that being a moderator is a demanding task.  however, i too find it unusual that Harjas's posts are so frequently edited, while other members are allowed to insult the entire forum, as well as individual members, and not a word is said.  when that practice is questioned, the questioner is edited, not the one who broke the rule in the first place.

i can see why Harjas feels persecuted.  the rules seem to apply to some, but not to others.


----------



## spnadmin

Jasleen ji

I speak here for myself. Do not hesitate to call me on any inequity I may commit. I have edited posts even of individuals with whom I am in sympathy. But may have missed some things along the way. 

Feel free to do it here or by private message.

You are right -- rules should be applied even-handedly.


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa

> Harjap Ji,





> Your allegations are quite baseless... Please quote from entire SPN, where SPN administration or Sevadaars have promoted the criticism of Bani? Religion and Philosophy are general but unique for each person's understanding and progress. If you disagree, simply accept the difference and ask for information you may not know. Un-necessary bragging, trash talk, childish arguements only take us away from the topic in hand. Please avoid them at any cost.
> 
> Who and how SPN has blacklisted you we fail to understand, its a false allegation? You are able to post comments in all the forums. We have more important things to do than singling you out from 6,000 odd members. Calling fellow members termites or name calling represents a fallacy in your mindset, and goes just like any other angry outburst, which SPN does and will discourage at all costs.
> 
> We have checked up and find that only those comments have been erased from your posts which are derogatory to the fellow members. We fully support our Forum Leaders in such actions of cleaning up the network.
> 
> Please stick to SPN posting rule "*Debate the issue and not the person*" and _we assure you that no one will ever bother fiddling with your posts._
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> SPN Administration.


First you are calling me Harjap. that is not my name. Now, if it was only a name misunderstanding, it would be one thing, but your post goes on to accuse me of having allegations which are baseless. So you are denying that last year when I had run in with your moderator S**** and discussions with K**** over deletions, removal of posts and in fact for quite a long time, the inability to post on this forum, that all my allegations are baseless and this did not occur? Yet there are even old posts from this time still on your forums where I have discussed deletions, inability to post, missing posts, and received PMs from certain moderators discussing precisely these issues.

Anyone can see people like Ekmusafir can come to this forum, and on this thread, insult every member directly and not be told anything. Yet, in context of discussion corruptions of Gurbani, I said such people who undermine the foundations of Sikh faith by invalidating supportive Gurbani such as Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, rehitnamay act as termites. Now the forum administrator joins the forum moderator to persist in accusing that I am singling out some (imaginary) person for name-calling as a termite. When it is quite clear that I am refering to erosion of the foundations of Sikh belief which is an activity not a person, and thus not name-calling any forum member in particular.




> "*Calling fellow members termites or name calling* represents a fallacy in your mindset, and goes just like any other *angry outburst*, which SPN does and will discourage at all costs."





> We have checked up and find that *only those comments have been erased from your posts which are derogatory to the fellow members*. We fully support our Forum Leaders in such actions of cleaning up the network.





> Please stick to SPN posting rule "*Debate the issue and not the person*" and we assure you that no one will ever bother fiddling with your posts.





> _*Un-necessary bragging, trash talk, childish arguements*_ only take us away from the topic in hand. Please avoid them at any cost.


You are referencing deleted portions of my posts which no one can read, and accusing that what was erased (and conveniently no one can see) were "derogatory" to other members and "unnecessary bragging, trash talk, childish arguments which take away from the topic at hand." 

Talk about personal attacks and nindya! And all this from the site administrator! Well, I guess that leaves no doubt about what can be expected with regards to pretended "fairness" on this forum. Well, anyone can erase my words and say they said whatever they want. But obviously since the words are erased no one can have a chance to know. 

I accuse you of nindya against me publically, and also of discriminating against the content of my posts because you people did not like the OPINIONS expressed. And I also accuse that you have tolerated an opposing viewpoint, even ones which were stated in way as to actually insult forum members as you have just insulted me. They are still on the forum. Anyone can read them. they have never received deletions, corrections, moderation or accusations of any kind...even to this day.




> 04-05-2007, 04:06 PM
> *Re: What's going on? - Just pm both members* *Email/Recommend this Topic to your Friends*
> Dear Bhenji, I humbly apologies again to you. I have just pm both S**** (team leader) and sa*****.
> 
> I hope this will resolve the issue. I did feel that you were unfairly treated and hence my last few replies in favour of yourself.
> 
> I am going to see if I can "unnapprove" a few last post.
> 
> Sincere apologies again,
> 
> ****
> 
> "I am going to remove your name from the "reminder post" now. If you need to discuss any other issue's please let me know."
> 
> "To tell you the truth, as this site is run by ADMIN i.e. Aman ji and belongs to him, there is very little I or other Team leaders can do. The decision is really up to him I am afraid.
> 
> I can post your pm in the "team leader section" if you want so that some action can be taken by Aman ji if any. I personally cant gurantee the outcome as this site doesnt belong to me. BTW, the team leader sections is not visible to members."


 
Why did these kind of posts never receive deletions, moderation, correction or anything?
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/15306-gurmat-who-is-the-deciding-authority.html


> Lovely_Silky writes:
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Harjas Kaur Khalsa*
> 
> _If you are looking for Gurmat interpretation solely in the Shabadguru Ji, you will find much contention because all of Gursikhi Gurmat is not written in Shabadguru Ji. _
> 
> 
> What is this madam khalsa ji?
> 
> Posing to be a khalsa and not know that all Gurmat is IN GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI. What are you preaching? How do you(being a Sikh) even dare to think of saying this? It shows you dont have any respect for Guru Ji in your heart, madam.
> 
> GURU IS GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI-
> 
> SABH SIKHAN KO HUKAM HAI GURU MANEO GRANTH
> GURU GRANTH JI MANEO PARGAT GURA KI DEH
> JO PRABH KO MILBO CHAHE KHOJ SHABAD MAIN LEH
> 
> How can gurmat be more valid outside Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Yes we can always use rehat namas from valid Gursikhs and then see that Guru Ji(Guru Granth Sahib Ji) supports it in full, i mean if it is according to gurmat.
> 
> *GURMAT COMES FROM THE GURU. GURU IS ALWAYS THE FIRST AND THE FOREMOST- THE LEADING AUTHORITY*
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Harjas Kaur Khalsa*
> _Some things are gupt like proper way of reciting Naam Gurmantar._
> 
> If a Gursikh namimg herself KHALSA says this it shows how STUPID AND ANTI-GURMAT AND ANTI-SIKH this person can be. Haathi Ke daant khaane ke aor, Dikhane ke aor. MUH ME RAM RAM BAGAL MAIN CHHURI.
> 
> ANY BODY WHO READS GURBANI KNOWS THAT 'HOW TO DO NAAM SIMRAN' IS MENTIONED MANY TIMES IN GURU GRANTH JI. HARJAS, YOUR STATEMENT IS PURELY INVALIDATING GURU JI, IT IS A SHAME.
> 
> hps ji why are you even looking for translations, why dont you learn Gurmukhi and find out the truth for yourself, if there are so many doubts in your mind. GURU IS GREAT- ANSWERS EVERY QUESTION
> 
> SAAS SAAS SIMRO GOBIND
> NAAM JAPO JI AISE AISE
> AMRIT BANI HAR HAR TERI
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/15306-gurmat-who-is-the-deciding-authority.html


You see, I have posted an example of personal attack against me still on this forum, to prove only my posts are filled with deletions, accusations and attacks against me personally. Of, course, per Aman Ji, perhaps I am only "falsely alleging." This forum has allowed people to call me stupid, a false Sikh, posing to be a khalsa, allege that I invalidate Shabadguru Ji Maharaaj... because I said the supporting bania in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji and vaaran and rehitnamay which Akal Takht has recognized is legitimate bani...is legitimate and also part of Gurmat Gursikhi such as nitenam, panj kakkars, proper way of reciting Vaheguru Gurmantra Saas Giras Simran, practice of Sarbloh bibek, etc. There is valid supportive bani which has always been part of Gurmat Gursikhi. Otherwise you would have to invalidate Amrit Sinchaar and the Khalsa.

Curious...that debate was much like the discussions here on this thread. This is what I refer to as "blacklisting" in order to derail my opinions and viewpoints and discriminate in my posting here." Thank you for washing my karams.


----------



## Admin

Harjas Ji, 

Ok, I can recollect during the times of Lovely_silky, Harjap Khalsa, venod and others mischief writers there were not many Forum Leaders around to moderate the network and many have since left the moderation team...  But since then, things have improved. We have more members volunteering the check the negative outflow of thoughts against fellow members... I can understand your grievances. We will look into the issues in hand and try to resolve them promptly.

Regards


----------



## AmbarDhara

Pyramid said:


> *Gurbani came from the True Source: Divine Lord. Gurbani is Gurprashaad. Guru Stamped it with word ‘GurPrasaad’ everywhere. Gurbani is compiled as a collection of Hymns collected from different Saints irrespective of color, cast, creed, time and religion. Jahangir wanted Guru Ji to delete Bani of other Saints from Granth Ji, But Guru Ji accepted to sit on the hot plate instead, let the opponents pour burning sand over His physical abode. *
> 
> 
> *Yesterday and today, das read a few very interesting comments on the net. Sharing with all to know everybody’s view:*
> *A very highly regarded, knowledgeable Gusikh telling a new Gursikh*: “With all due respect I urge you not to take a a few Sikhs' blind theory as a true Sikh tenent. What they are doing on this site they just select a few Guru waak or some Bhatt bani to prove their case that guru is God.”
> *Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20491-literal-meaning-of-gurbani-2.html*
> *Another Gursikh telling a Gursikh*: "I am first and foremost a Sikh Historian who has studied patetrns and behavior within Sikhism. This concept of thinking Guru's are God is not new and emerges from time to time and is a hangover of our Hindu past."
> *Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/19100-nanak-is-guru-nanak-lord-himself-43.html*
> *Another Gursikh Telling a Gursikh*: ""Gur Parmeshar eko jaan". A true Guru will never say he is God but sometimes the Guru is left with no choice and for the sake of progress he will make a statement that can be misinterpreted by others. Now ***** is not going to move forward unless for him Guru is not God. "
> *Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/20491-literal-meaning-of-gurbani-2.html*
> *Another Gursikh’s comments*:“_In order to deabte this properly let us have the entire shabad from page”_
> *Source: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/19100-nanak-is-guru-nanak-lord-himself-42.html*
> 
> 
> 
> *To das the above lines read like- don’t believe in some Bani and believe in some. It also reads that there are some Gur Waks or Bhatt Bani that is UNTRUE, NOT WORTH BELIEVING, or CORRUPT. It also read to das that all those Sikhs are blind who believe all the Bani to be True as IT IS. It also read to das that when Guru is telling one thing again and again that Guru and God are no different, one can’t believe it as it is Hindu faith. These lines also read to das that a mortal one has the capacity to debate*(A debate is an arguement. People decide and discuss on differences. We compare, when we debate) *over Gurbani Which(BANI) is written by Immortals(GURU). Because True Guru never call Himself God(*seems like people are expecting Guru to state'I AM GOD'*), we can't say Guru is God, even if He is telling the same truth in so many other ways.*
> 
> 
> *Guru tells us:*
> 
> AMg 52*Page 52 *​
> 
> isrIrwgu mhlw 5 ]* Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl: *​
> 
> sMq jnhu suix BweIho CUtnu swcY nwie ] *O Saints, O Siblings of Destiny, listen: release comes only through the True Name. *​
> 
> gur ky crx sryvxy qIrQ hir kw nwau ] *Worship the Feet of the Guru. Let the Name of the Lord be your sacred shrine of pilgrimage. *​
> 
> AwgY drgih mMnIAih imlY inQwvy Qwau ]1] *Hereafter, you shall be honored in the Court of the Lord; there, even the homeless find a home. ||1|| *​
> 
> BweI ry swcI siqgur syv ] *O Siblings of Destiny, service to the True Guru alone is True.*​
> 
> siqgur quTY pweIAY pUrn AlK AByv ]1] rhwau ] *When the True Guru is pleased, we obtain the Perfect, Unseen, Unknowable Lord. ||1||Pause|| *​
> 
> siqgur ivthu vwirAw ijin idqw scu nwau ] *I am a sacrifice to the True Guru, who has bestowed the True Name. *​
> 
> Anidnu scu slwhxw scy ky gux gwau ] *Night and day, I praise the True One; I sing the Glorious Praises of the True One.*​
> 
> scu Kwxw scu pYnxw scy scw nwau ]2] *True is the food, and true are the clothes, of those who chant the True Name of the True One. ||2|| *​
> 
> swis igrwis n ivsrY sPlu mUriq guru Awip ] *With each breath and morsel of food, do not forget the Guru, the Embodiment of Fulfillment.*​
> 
> gur jyvfu Avru n idseI AwT phr iqsu jwip ] *None is seen to be as great as the Guru. Meditate on Him twenty-four hours a day.*​
> 
> ndir kry qw pweIAY scu nwmu guxqwis ]3] *As He casts His Glance of Grace, we obtain the True Name, the Treasure of Excellence. ||3|| *​
> 
> guru prmysru eyku hY sB mih rihAw smwie ] *The Guru and the Transcendent Lord are one and the same, pervading and permeating amongst all.*​
> 
> ijn kau pUrib iliKAw syeI nwmu iDAwie ] *Those who have such pre-ordained destiny, meditate on the Naam.*​
> 
> nwnk gur srxwgqI mrY n AwvY jwie ]4]30]100] *Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||*​
> 
> 
> *In this Shabad Guru Ji is telling us that Guru and Parmesar are the same one, permeating everywhere.*​
> 
> *AND*​
> 
> AMg 49 *Page 49*​
> 
> isrIrwgu mhlw 5 ] *Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:*​
> 
> 
> sMq jnhu imil BweIho scw nwmu smwil ] *Meet with the humble Saints, O Siblings of Destiny, and contemplate the True Name. *​
> 
> qosw bMDhu jIA kw AYQY EQY nwil ] *For the journey of the soul, gather those supplies which will go with you here and hereafter.*​
> 
> gur pUry qy pweIAY ApxI ndir inhwil ] *These are obtained from the Perfect Guru, when God bestows His Glance of Grace.*​
> 
> krim prwpiq iqsu hovY ijs no hOie dieAwlu ]1] *Those unto whom He is Merciful, receive His Grace. ||1||*​
> 
> myry mn gur jyvfu Avru n koie ] *O my mind, there is no other as great as the Guru. *​
> 
> dUjw Qwau n ko suJY gur myly scu soie ]1] rhwau ] *I cannot imagine any other place. The Guru leads me to meet the True Lord. ||1||Pause||*​
> 
> sgl pdwrQ iqsu imly ijin guru ifTw jwie ] *Those who go to see the Guru obtain all treasures. *​
> 
> gur crxI ijn mnu lgw sy vfBwgI mwie ] *Those whose minds are attached to the Guru's Feet are very fortunate, O my mother. *​
> 
> guru dwqw smrQu guru guru sB mih rihAw smwie ] *The Guru is the Giver, the Guru is All-powerful. The Guru is All-pervading, contained amongst all.*​
> 
> guru prmysru pwrbRhmu guru fubdw ley qrwie ]2] *The Guru is the Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God. The Guru lifts up and saves those who are drowning. ||2||*​
> 
> 
> ikqu muiK guru swlwhIAY krx kwrx smrQu ] *How shall I praise the Guru, the All-powerful Cause of causes?*​
> 
> sy mQy inhcl rhy ijn guir DwirAw hQu ] *Those, upon whose foreheads the Guru has placed His Hand, remain steady and stable.*​
> 
> guir AMimRq nwmu pIAwilAw jnm mrn kw pQu ] *The Guru has led me to drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; He has released me from the cycle of birth and death.*​
> 
> guru prmysru syivAw BY BMjnu duK lQu ]3] *I serve the Guru, the Transcendent Lord, the Dispeller of fear; my suffering has been taken away. ||3|| *​
> 
> siqguru gihr gBIru hY suK swgru AGKMfu ] *The True Guru is the Deep and Profound Ocean of Peace, the Destroyer of sin.*​
> 
> ijin guru syivAw Awpxw jmdUq n lwgY fMfu ] *For those who serve their Guru, there is no punishment at the hands of the Messenger of Death. *​
> 
> gur nwil quil n lgeI Koij ifTw bRhmMfu ] *There is none to compare with the Guru; I have searched and looked throughout the entire universe.*​
> 
> nwmu inDwnu siqguir dIAw suKu nwnk mn mih mMfu ]4]20]90] *The True Guru has bestowed the Treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord. O Nanak, the mind is filled with peace. ||4||20||90||*​
> 
> 
> *In the above shabad Guru Ji is calling Guru – Parbrahm in a literal sense. *
> *AND*
> 
> AMg 802 *Page 802*​
> 
> rwgu iblwvlu mhlw 5 Gru 2 XwnVIey kY Gir gwvxw *Raag Bilaaval, Fifth Mehl, Second House, To Be Sung To The Tune Of Yaan-Ree-Ay:*​
> 
> <> siqgur pRswid ] *One Universal** Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: *​
> 
> mY min qyrI tyk myry ipAwry mY min qyrI tyk ] *You are the Support of my mind, O my Beloved, You are the Support of my mind. *​
> 
> Avr isAwxpw ibrQIAw ipAwry rwKn kau qum eyk ]1] rhwau ] *All other clever tricks are useless, O Beloved; You alone are my Protector. ||1||Pause||*​
> 
> siqguru pUrw jy imlY ipAwry so jnu hoq inhwlw ] *One who meets with the Perfect True Guru, O Beloved, that humble person is enraptured.*​
> 
> gur kI syvw so kry ipAwry ijs no hoie dieAwlw ] *He alone serves the Guru, O Beloved, unto whom the Lord becomes merciful. *​
> 
> sPl mUriq gurdyau suAwmI srb klw BrpUry ] *Fruitful is the form of the Divine Guru, O Lord and Master; He is overflowing with all powers. *​
> 
> nwnk guru pwrbRhmu prmysru sdw sdw hjUry ]1] *O Nanak, the Guru is the Supreme Lord God, the Transcendent Lord; He is ever-present, forever and ever. ||1||*​
> 
> suix suix jIvw soie iqnw kI ijn@ Apunw pRBu jwqw ] *I live by hearing, hearing of those who know their God. *​
> 
> hir nwmu ArwDih nwmu vKwxih hir nwmy hI mnu rwqw ] *They contemplate the Lord's Name, they chant the Lord's Name, and their minds are imbued with the Lord's Name. *​
> 
> syvku jn kI syvw mwgY pUrY krim kmwvw ] *I am Your servant; I beg to serve Your humble servants. By the karma of perfect destiny, I do this. *​
> 
> nwnk kI bynµqI suAwmI qyry jn dyKxu pwvw ]2] *This is Nanak's prayer: O my Lord and Master, may I obtain the Blessed Vision of Your humble servants. ||2||*​
> 
> vfBwgI sy kwFIAih ipAwry sMqsMgiq ijnw vwso ] *They are said to be very fortunate, O Beloved, who who dwell in the Society of the Saints. *​
> 
> AMimRq nwmu ArwDIAY inrmlu mnY hovY prgwso ] *They contemplate the Immaculate, Ambrosial Naam, and their minds are illuminated. *​
> 
> jnm mrx duKu kwtIAY ipAwry cUkY jm kI kwxy ] *The pains of birth and death are eradicated, O Beloved, and the fear of the Messenger of Death is ended. *​
> 
> iqnw prwpiq drsnu nwnk jo pRB Apxy Bwxy ]3] *They alone obtain the Blessed Vision of this Darshan, O Nanak, who are pleasing to their God. ||3||*​
> 
> aUc Apwr byAMq suAwmI kauxu jwxY gux qyry ] ​
> 
> *O my lofty, incomparable and infinite Lord and Master, who can know Your Glorious Virtues?*​
> 
> 
> gwvqy auDrih suxqy auDrih ibnsih pwp Gnyry ] *Those who sing them are saved, and those who listen to them are saved; all their sins are erased.*​
> 
> psU pryq mugD kau qwry pwhn pwir auqwrY ] *You save the beasts, demons and fools, and even stones are carried across. *​
> 
> nwnk dws qyrI srxweI sdw sdw bilhwrY ]4]1]4] ​
> 
> *Slave Nanak seeks Your Sanctuary; he is forever and ever a sacrifice to You. ||4||1||4||*​
> *In this Shabad again Guru Ji is showing us the same- there is no difference between Guru and God.*
> 
> 
> 
> *For 40/50 years, Gurbani-as IT IS, has cleared all my doubts. I kept my eyes closed and looked at the World through Guru’s eyes. I never felt a need to disect Gur Bani. I have thousands of friends, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Christians, in India and Overseas, who have the same belief as I have.*
> *None of them who read Gurbani ever suggested me to practice this 'disection process' or 'Dont believe Bani in Literal Sense' theory. All believe in Bani –AS IT IS.*
> 
> *Das always see Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s Insignia in each and every word of Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Stamped it with Guru- Brahmgyani Ki Gat Brahmgyani Jaaney- das vichara Guru da Pallaa phar ke kharaa(das is only holding Guru’s scarf), Guru knows the Gurprasaad.*
> 
> *Gurbani is written for everybody, no mediator is needed to explain that. Guru, the immortal is talking to us, we dont need mortals describing it to us if it is true or not true. *
> 
> *Metaphors used in Gurbani are all taken from regular human society- NOTHING IS OFF PLANET. Everybody can understand the meaning of the mataphors easily. *
> 
> *Practicing Humility is most important for a seeker. In Gurbani Guru Ji states that we should even avoid calling ourselves a seeker. One has to be totally steeped in Humility, so how one can expect that any Saint will say-'I AM GOD'. Guru tells us:*
> 
> *ਸਗਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਮਹਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪ੍ਰਧਾਨੁ ॥ Among all persons, the supreme person is the one*
> *ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਮਿਟੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥ who gives up his egotistical pride in the Company of the Holy.*
> *ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਜੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਨੀਚਾ ॥ One who sees himself as lowly,*
> *ਸੋਊ ਗਨੀਐ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਊਚਾ ॥ shall be accounted as the highest of all.*
> *ਜਾ ਕਾ ਮਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਸਗਲ ਕੀ ਰੀਨਾ ॥ One whose mind is the dust of all,*
> *ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਿਨਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਚੀਨਾ ॥ recognizes the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, in each and every heart.*
> *ਮਨ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਤੇ ਬੁਰਾ ਮਿਟਾਨਾ ॥ One who eradicates cruelty from within his own mind,*
> *ਪੇਖੈ ਸਗਲ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਾਜਨਾ ॥ looks upon all the world as his friend.*
> *ਸੂਖ ਦੂਖ ਜਨ ਸਮ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੇਤਾ ॥ One who looks upon pleasure and pain as one and the same,*
> *ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਨਹੀ ਲੇਪਾ ॥੬॥ O Nanak, is not affected by sin or virtue. ||6||*
> 
> *We mortals have no capacity to debate on Guru’s Word. Guru is Immortal, we are mortals:*
> 
> *Guru Ji tells:*
> 
> 
> AMg 310 *Page 310*​
> 
> 
> pauVI ] *Pauree:*​
> 
> 
> scu scw siqguru Amru hY ijsu AMdir hir auir DwirAw ] *Truest of the True is the Immortal True Guru; He has enshrined the Lord deep within His heart.*​
> 
> 
> scu scw siqguru purKu hY ijin kwmu k®oDu ibKu mwirAw ] *Truest of the True is the True Guru, the Primal Being, who has conquered sexual desire, anger and corruption.*​
> 
> 
> jw ifTw pUrw siqgurU qW AMdrhu mnu swDwirAw ] *When I see the Perfect True Guru, then deep within, my mind is comforted and consoled.*​
> 
> 
> bilhwrI gur Awpxy sdw sdw Guim vwirAw ] *I am a sacrifice to my True Guru; I am devoted and dedicated to Him, forever and ever.*​
> 
> 
> gurmuiK ijqw mnmuiK hwirAw ]17] *A Gurmukh wins the battle of life whereas a self-willed manmukh loses it. ||17||*​
> 
> *Guru Ji is explaining in this Shabad that Satguru is immortal.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Just to collect information on this issue**:*
> *Das want to know how many more people out there think the need of-*
> 
> *1. **CAREFULLNESS WHILE READING GURBANI- IS IT TRUE OR NOT(!),* *we are not capable of proving it, we need to have unshakable faith. *
> *2. **CAREFULLNESS WHILE BELIEVING GUR WAK- IS IT CORRUPT OR BELIEVABLE(!), again we are not capable of proving it, we need unshakable faith.*
> *3. **KNOWING THAT BHATT BANI IS NOT GURBANI, AVOID THAT(!), all Gurbani is Guru, cant afford to have any doubts.*
> *4. **KNOWING ALL THAT BANI THAT YOU CONSIDER AVOIDING(!),  Bani is all Truth- what can we avoid, cant afford to have doubts again.*
> *5. **CONSIDERING THAT THE LITERAL MEANING LEADS TO CONFUSION AND WRONG BELIEFS, WE NEED MORTALS TO DESCRIBE THE BANI'S CORRECT MEANING WHICH(BANI) IS WRITTEN AND COMPILED BY IMMORTALS(GURU/SAINT/GOD REALIZED)(!), literal meaning cant have a different meaning- this kind of consideration is bogus.*
> *6. **UNDERSTANDING THAT LITERAL MEANING AND MATAPHORS CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY COMMON PEOPLE, THAT UNDERSTANDING IS ONLY A PROPERTY OF A FEW SELECTED ONES, this consideration is again bogus.*
> *7. **FAITH THAT THE MEANING IN THE METAPHOR IS DIFFERENT THAN THE MEANING IN REAL, bogus faith again.*
> *8. **KNOWING THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE(MORTAL) OUT THERE BETTER THAN OUR GURU, WHO CAN DEBATE OVER GURBANI AND TELL US THE REAL MEANING, WHICH OUR GURU(IMMORTAL BEING) IS UNABLE TO SEND ACROSS, debating Gurbani is out of context.*
> *exist.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> swD kI soBw swD bin AweI ]*The glory of the Holy people is theirs alone;*nwnk swD pRB Bydu n BweI ]8]7]*O Nanak, there is no difference between the Holy people and God. ||8||7|| **and*nwnk bRhm igAwnI Awip prmysur ]6]*O Nanak, the God-conscious being is Himself the Supreme Lord God. ||6||.* .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Thanks and Please Please Please give comment- positive or negative. Needed for a very good purpose. PM me if needed. Please share this on the other Sikh and non-Sikh forums as well. I will be making additions to it, as I find more information. Thanks again. *
> 
> 
> *Tuhada das*
> *Yograj*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Garbani Translations are provided for the convienenace of non-punjabi knowing readers and source of the translations is- SIKHITOTHEMAX.COM


 

*'I dwell upon the One Word of the Shabad. You are mine-what else do I need?'*

*'Without the Word of the Shabad, people wander lost in reincarnation. Through the love of duality, multitudes have been drowned.'*

*'Without the Guru, this pollution is not removed. Without the Lord, how can there be any homecoming?'*

*'Contemplate the One Word of the Shabad, and abandon other hopes.'*

*'O Nanak, I am forever a sacrifice to the one who beholds, and inspires others to behold Him.' *

*'O Nanak, instruct your mind through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, and praise the Lord.'*

*'Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the mind is conquered, and one attains the State of Liberation in one's own home.'*

*'The True Guru leads us to meet the Immaculate True God through the Word of His Shabad. '*

*'The Gurmukhs realize the Word of the Shabad; they are immersed in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Lord's Name.'*

*'Practice truth, and only truth, and merge in the True Word of the Shabad.'*

*'If the Word of the Guru's Shabad abides deep within, then you shall not forget the Lord. '*


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## spnadmin

AmbarDhara ji,

It is good to hear from you! At some point I hope that we will return to a discussion of the topic. I can see you are frustrated and hope we get back on track.

Thanks for reminding us that there was a discussion happening earlier on.


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## AmbarDhara

aad0002 said:


> AmbarDhara ji,
> 
> It is good to hear from you! *At some point I hope* that we will return to a discussion of the topic. I can see you are *frustrated* and hope we get back on track.
> 
> Thanks for reminding us that there was a discussion happening earlier on.


 

Ha ha ha
Ha ha ha........ A very odd but extremely funny observation. 
What can make one see any frustration in the reply above? Aad Ji, you made my day. I think, it is because I broke the ice-Is it? 
Anyways, I am not frustrated at all. May be I was not supposed to answer Pyramid's post *YET*(based on this forum's any hidden unsaid rules)/May be I was not supposed to use Gurbani Translations on this forum(based on this forum's any hidden unsaid rules)//May be I was not supposed to Speak the Truth/May be I was not supposed to act normal/:}{}{}: But I did. .......Ha ha ha

Stupid me:crazy:..... 

Aad Ji, your observation/comment made me laugh a lot. I will be adding a lot of gurbani to this thread that supports the TRUTH- 'GurShabad is everything for a Sikh'. 
Once again: I am not frustrated, was just replying a post in a very *civil manner* :hmm:. 

Aad Ji, I respect you a lot, and I know you support Gurmat and follow Gurmat wholeheartedly.

*Tak**e it Easy People*. In Gurmat section, Gurbani/Gurmat has to be tolerated/posted/supported. May it appears to many as-Frustration.

:}{}{}:Once again, Please Take it easy all, It is Gurmat Vichar Section. I, stupid Ambar suppose one has to post, see and read Gurbani and the support of Gurbani, unless you change the name of the Forum:}{}{}:. If you cant see, read and post Gurmat and Gurbani under this forum, and you dont, very very well it is your choice. Guru takes care of all, Everything is under His will. 

*People who live Gurbani are not frustrated*- another Truth of a Gursikh's Life- may make many see-Sikhs are always frustrated-just joking.


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## AmbarDhara

*Gurbani Gavo Bhai*


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## AmbarDhara

Dictionary defenition of term: frustration:
*1.*




*frustration* - the feeling that accompanies an experience of being thwarted in attaining your goals defeat
disappointment, letdown - a feeling of dissatisfaction that results when your expectations are not realized; "his hopes were so high he was doomed to disappointment"
*2.**frustration* - an act of hindering someone's plans or efforts foiling, thwarting
interference, hinderance, hindrance - the act of hindering or obstructing or impeding
*3.**frustration* - a feeling of annoyance at being hindered or criticized; "her constant complaints were the main source of his frustration" vexation, annoyance, chafe - anger produced by some annoying irritation

frustration - definition of frustration by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.





frustration - Google Image Search





frustration - Google Image Search


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## AmbarDhara

*This is What Guru Ji says:*

*'The self-willed manmukhs are totally without virtue. Without the Name, they die in frustration.'* 

*'Joy and sorrow, profit and loss, birth and death, pain and pleasure - they are all the same to my consciousness, since I met the Guru. As long as I plotted and planned things, I was full of frustration. When I met the Kind, Perfect Guru, then I obtained bliss so easily.'*


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## Astroboy

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/14393-gurbani-kirtan-8-bani-guru-guru.html


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## AmbarDhara

*



ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੨ ॥ ਅਖੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਵੇਖਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕੰਨਾ ਸੁਨਣਾ ॥ ਪੈਰਾ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਚਲਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਹਥਾ ਕਰਣਾ ॥ ਜੀਭੈ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਇਉ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਣਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਕੈ ਤਉ ਖਸਮੈ ਮਿਲਣਾ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 139}
Here is Gyani ji’s interpretation on page 82-83”Gurbani Parvodh”

Click to expand...

*


> *“ That Waheguru is without eyes but being observer watches all. He hasn’t any ears but he listens to every one. He is without feet but in others’ feet His walking power is present. He is without hands but every ones hands’ power of holding is His. He is without tongue but in others languages, His power is present. This way one who understands His ordinance and by being indifference to outside world, can meet Him”*



*Such beautiful words, this translation makes it clear that the translator is seeing God everywhere, affirming that God is the Karta- not me you and other- THERE IS NO SECOND. ONLY ONE- WAHEGURU.*

*'Let your daily worship be the knowledge that God is everywhere.'*


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## Archived_Member1

AmbarDhara said:


> *Tak**e it Easy People*. In Gurmat section, Gurbani/Gurmat has to be tolerated/posted/supported. May it appears to many as-Frustration.
> 
> :}{}{}:Once again, Please Take it easy all, It is Gurmat Vichar Section. I, stupid Ambar suppose one has to post, see and read Gurbani and the support of Gurbani, unless you change the name of the Forum:}{}{}:. If you cant see, read and post Gurmat and Gurbani under this forum, and you dont, very very well it is your choice. Guru takes care of all, Everything is under His will.





i'm sorry to interrupt with a stupid question...

when reading a thread from the right hand sidebar, how does one see which section it is posted in?

i did not know i was breaking the rules, posting my nonsense in Gurbani Vichaar section.

i appologize.


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## AmbarDhara

Daanveer said:


> The conversation on this thread reminds me of the riddle:
> 
> Guru Baraa Ke Chelaa!


 
:}{}{}:


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## AmbarDhara

jasleen_kaur said:


> i'm sorry to interrupt with a stupid question...
> 
> *Dont be sorry, Jasleen Kaur Ji. *
> 
> when reading a thread from the right hand sidebar, how does one see which section it is posted in?
> 
> *On my computer, when I take the cirsir on the thread heading, it gives me the whole path for the thread. I can also see the path at the bottom bar on my PC. I think a tech may be able to help you how to get it. Any techs around eager to help please!*
> 
> i did not know i was breaking the rules, posting my nonsense in Gurbani Vichaar section.
> 
> *I dont think anybody is breaking the rules, Jasleen Ji. I guess my joking around with Aad Ji went a little too far. I hope she understands I am only joking around.*
> 
> i appologize.
> 
> *You dont need to apologize, Jasleen Ji. Take it EASY.*


 
*I guess I need to ask for forgiveness instead. Please forgive me.*


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## AmbarDhara

*I think I must repeat myself: *

*Aad Ji, I respect you a lot, and I know you support Gurmat and follow Gurmat wholeheartedly.*

*I hope you grant me forgiveness please.*


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## spnadmin

All jios on this thread.

A couple of observations. Just my analysis of the discourse so far on this thread.

There *is too much* apologizing going on. As adults some can understand that a word, a phrase, a sentence, a paragraph might hurt someone's feelings but hurt was not intended by the writer of the offending comment. Apologies show efforts to be civilized, but also stop discussion with emotions. 

There *is* a need to ask others for clarification before wondering if an insult was intended. Sometimes insults are obvious. Calling people names or questioning their faith in God is insulting. Sometimes there is an interpretation of an insult that might not be there in fact.

I think we all can see that for days now we have been working out our interpersonal relationships and ignoring the topic of the thread.

We are able to discuss these issues -- and we do discuss the issues when we relate our thinking to Bani. That has happened from time to time. Why not more often? 

Finally, in gurmat vichaar -- I don't know -- what do others think?  -- we should feel free to  take a break for humor. Lighten up on the pious faces. But eventually get back to vichaar of Siri Guru Granth Sahib.


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## Archived_Member1

AmbarDhara said:


> *I guess I need to ask for forgiveness instead. Please forgive me.*



not necessary.   i was just confused.

now i see it, it's very small and i didn't notice it before.  thanks for pointing it out, now i'll have a little bit better idea of where i am.


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## lalihayer

gursikho,
I started reading the thread after reading heading "Is Bhatt Bani Not Guru?", but even after reading 12 pages never found any comment. Please comment on Bhatt bani. Should we take it literally when Bhatts call Guru incarnation (avatar) of Lord? or it is just poetic exaggeration while praising Guru?


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## spnadmin

I know lalihayer ji - very confusing thread.


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## Astroboy

http://www.gurbanifiles.org/bani_by_author/Bhatt Bani (GDRE).pdf


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## Sikh80

Pk70 ji has stated that Bani of Bhatt's is approved/authenticated by fifth Nanak. It,in itself, speaks a lot.

In my opinion even if the Bhatts were mere devotees of the Guru's but they were not related to them; I presume that what has been spoken of by Bhatts have been included in the Bani only because it has all the ingredients of Truth else it would not have been included as bani.


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