# A Shabad I Came Across - Possible Interpretations



## chazSingh (Aug 28, 2013)

*Because we do not pick out one line and attempt to understand it without the context of the full shabad, I have reposted the full shabad and Ang number to follow. The full shabad always casts a different light on the meaning of a single tuk, contrasted by the tuk alone, or just a few lines. If these rules are not followed, future threads will be deleted without notice. Thank you/spnadmin*


man ku(n)char kaaeiaa oudhiaanai || 
The mind is an elephant in the forest of the body.

gur a(n)kas sach sabadh neesaanai || raaj dhuaarai sobh s maanai ||1||
The Guru is the controlling stick; when the Insignia of the True Shabad is applied, one obtains honor in the Court of God the King. ||1||

chathuraaee neh cheeniaa jaae ||
He cannot be known through clever tricks.

bin maarae kio keemath paae ||1|| rehaao || 
Without subduing the mind, how can His value be estimated? ||1||Pause||

*ghar mehi a(n)mrith thasakar laeee ||
In the house of the self is the Ambrosial Nectar, which is being stolen by the thieves.
* 
na(n)naakaar n koe karaeee ||
No one can say no to them.

raakhai aap vaddiaaee dhaeee ||2|| 
He Himself protects us, and blesses us with greatness. ||2||

neel aneel agan eik t(h)aaee || 
There are billions, countless billions of fires of desire at the seat of the mind.

jal nivaree gur boojh bujhaaee ||
They are extinguished only with the water of understanding, imparted by the Guru.

man dhae leeaa rehas gun gaaee ||3|| 
Offering my mind, I have attained it, and I joyfully sing His Glorious Praises. ||3||

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=703


Sangat Ji, I came across this shabad a while back and have often contemplated it's meaning, especially the line that I have highlighted above.

The mention of Amrit existing within our own home (body) and being robbed stolen by the 'thieves' which i am assuming are the 5 thieves Ego, Anger, Lust, Greed and Attachment.

It would be interesting what the sangat interpret this as being, your thoughts on this shabad with reference to the highlighted line.

God Bless All Ji


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## arshdeep88 (Aug 28, 2013)

chaaz ji
brother could this Ambroisal Nectar be peace of mind being talked of which can be easily disturbed?


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## spnadmin (Aug 28, 2013)

I am wondering why srigranth.com is not used for the posting of shabads. Sikhitothemax poses font problems because it does not use unicode. But it is so easy to search srigranth and find the same shabad, with the advantage that we have the Gurmukhi. This is important because the transliteration does not consistently transport into the interpretation possible different meanings for the same word.

No Ang has been included. Therefore additional work is needed to find the shabad on the search engine. Please remember:

*Full shabad required under most circumstances
Gurmukhi required
transliteration optional
English translation required
Ang number required*

These are important because personal opinions only go so far when we are looking at gurbani vichaar.

This is my last warning.


ਗਉੜੀ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
Ga▫oṛī gu▫ārerī mėhlā 1.
Gauree Gwaarayree, First Mehl:

ਮਨੁ ਕੁੰਚਰੁ ਕਾਇਆ ਉਦਿਆਨੈ ॥
Man kuncẖar kā▫i▫ā uḏi▫ānai.
The mind is an elephant in the forest of the body.

ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਕਸੁ ਸਚੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਨੀਸਾਨੈ ॥
Gur ankas sacẖ sabaḏ nīsānai.
The Guru is the controlling stick; when the Insignia of the True Shabad is applied,

ਰਾਜ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਸੋਭ ਸੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥੧॥
Rāj ḏu▫ārai sobẖ so mānai. ||1||
one obtains honor in the Court of God the King. ||1||

ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਨਹ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
Cẖaṯurā▫ī nah cẖīni▫ā jā▫e.
He cannot be known through clever tricks.

ਬਿਨੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਉ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Bin māre ki▫o kīmaṯ pā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Without subduing the mind, how can His value be estimated? ||1||Pause||

*ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਸਕਰੁ ਲੇਈ ॥
Gẖar mėh amriṯ ṯaskar le▫ī.
In the house of the self is the Ambrosial Nectar, which is being stolen by the thieves.*

ਨੰਨਾਕਾਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ਕਰੇਈ ॥
Nannākār na ko▫e kare▫ī.
No one can say no to them.
ਰਾਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਦੇਈ ॥੨॥

Rākẖai āp vadi▫ā▫ī ḏe▫ī. ||2||
He Himself protects us, and blesses us with greatness. ||2||

ਨੀਲ ਅਨੀਲ ਅਗਨਿ ਇਕ ਠਾਈ ॥
Nīl anīl agan ik ṯẖā▫ī.
There are billions, countless billions of fires of desire at the seat of the mind.

ਜਲਿ ਨਿਵਰੀ ਗੁਰਿ ਬੂਝ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥
Jal nivrī gur būjẖ bujẖā▫ī.
They are extinguished only with the water of understanding, imparted by the Guru.

ਮਨੁ ਦੇ ਲੀਆ ਰਹਸਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਈ ॥੩॥
Man ḏe lī▫ā rahas guṇ gā▫ī. ||3||
Offering my mind, I have attained it, and I joyfully sing His Glorious Praises. ||3||

ਜੈਸਾ ਘਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਸੋ ਤੈਸਾ ॥
Jaisā gẖar bāhar so ṯaisā.
Just as He is within the home of the self, so is He beyond.

ਬੈਸਿ ਗੁਫਾ ਮਹਿ ਆਖਉ ਕੈਸਾ ॥
Bais gufā mėh ākẖa▫o kaisā.
But how can I describe Him, sitting in a cave?

ਸਾਗਰਿ ਡੂਗਰਿ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਐਸਾ ॥੪॥
Sāgar dūgar nirbẖa▫o aisā. ||4||
The Fearless Lord is in the oceans, just as He is in the mountains. ||4||

ਮੂਏ ਕਉ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਉਨੁ ॥
Mū▫e ka▫o kaho māre ka▫un.
Tell me, who can kill someone who is already dead?

ਨਿਡਰੇ ਕਉ ਕੈਸਾ ਡਰੁ ਕਵਨੁ ॥
Nidre ka▫o kaisā dar kavan.
What does he fear? Who can frighten the fearless one?

ਸਬਦਿ ਪਛਾਨੈ ਤੀਨੇ ਭਉਨ ॥੫॥
Sabaḏ pacẖẖānai ṯīne bẖa▫un. ||5||
He recognizes the Word of the Shabad, throughout the three worlds. ||5||

ਜਿਨਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਕਹਨੁ ਵਖਾਨਿਆ ॥
Jin kahi▫ā ṯin kahan vakẖāni▫ā.
One who speaks, merely describes speech.

ਜਿਨਿ ਬੂਝਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਸਹਜਿ ਪਛਾਨਿਆ ॥
Jin būjẖi▫ā ṯin sahj pacẖẖāni▫ā.
But one who understands, intuitively realizes.

ਦੇਖਿ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੬॥
Ḏekẖ bīcẖār merā man māni▫ā. ||6||
Seeing and reflecting upon it, my mind surrenders. ||6||

ਕੀਰਤਿ ਸੂਰਤਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਇਕ ਨਾਈ ॥
Kīraṯ sūraṯ mukaṯ ik nā▫ī.
Praise, beauty and liberation are in the One Name.

ਤਹੀ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
Ŧahī niranjan rahi▫ā samā▫ī.
In it, the Immaculate Lord is permeating and pervading.

ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਬਿਆਪਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਨਿਜ ਠਾਈ ॥੭॥
Nij gẖar bi▫āp rahi▫ā nij ṯẖā▫ī. ||7||
He dwells in the home of the self, and in His own sublime place. ||7||

ਉਸਤਤਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਮੁਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ॥
Usṯaṯ karahi keṯe mun parīṯ.
The many silent sages lovingly praise Him.


ਤਨਿ ਮਨਿ ਸੂਚੈ ਸਾਚੁ ਸੁ ਚੀਤਿ ॥
Ŧan man sūcẖai sācẖ so cẖīṯ.
Their bodies and minds are purified, as they enshrine the True Lord in their consciousness.

ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਭਜੁ ਨੀਤਾ ਨੀਤਿ ॥੮॥੨॥
Nānak har bẖaj nīṯā nīṯ. ||8||2||
O Nanak, meditate on the Lord, each and every day. ||8||2||


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## chazSingh (Aug 28, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> I am wondering why srigranth.com is not used for the posting of shabads. Sikhitothemax poses font problems because it does not use unicode. But it is so easy to search srigranth and find the same shabad, with the advantage that we have the Gurmukhi. This is important because the transliteration does not consistently transport into the interpretation possible different meanings for the same word.


 
will have to visit the site, i've always had a habit of using sikhi to the max.


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## spnadmin (Aug 28, 2013)

When we look at a little bit of this shabad we get the impression that Guruji is saying: "Brothers and Sisters, You had better rid yourself of those treacherous things, the 5 thieves, and get that mind of yours under control, if you really want a taste of that ambrosial nectar." It reduces just to that. If that were the way to approach the shabad, all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji could be reduced to about 20 sentences.

No one would be urged to learn Gurmukhi, study the shabad guru, nor for that matter would it mean anything to be a Sikh.

There is much more to this shabad and much more to the beauty of ambrosial nectar than a renunciates' theme song.

Let us do the shabad justice. Read the entire shabad. Understand the tuk in the context of the shabad.


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## chazSingh (Aug 28, 2013)

arshdeep88 said:


> chaaz ji
> brother could this Ambroisal Nectar be peace of mind being talked of which can be easily disturbed?


 
Good question...
The shabad seems to refer to the mind a lot, subduing it, reference to countless desires existing within the mind possibly preventing us from realising God..

is the Amrit being referred to, a seperate entity to the measure of peace of mind...the thieves obviosuly exists within our minds...they drag us around by the hair (as described in another passage of Gurbani).
Is the Amrit being reffered to, mutually exclusive to the mind...but one causes an effect on the other?

Or is the Amrit literally 'piece of mind'?

in another thread i reffered to our life force as 'Amrit'..
We often see how the mental struggles of life often ends in stress, depression and the onset of disease...could this be as a result of this life force being robbed by a turbulent mind.

Just some thoughts as i contemplate the shabad 

An interesting shabad indeed.


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## chazSingh (Aug 28, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> When we look at a little bit of this shabad we get the impression that Guruji is saying: "Brothers and Sisters, You had better rid yourself of those treacherous things, the 5 thieves, and get that mind of yours under control, if you really want a taste of that ambrosial nectar." It reduces just to that. If that were the way to approach the shabad, all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji could be reduced to about 20 sentences.
> 
> No one would be urged to learn Gurmukhi, study the shabad guru, nor for that matter would it mean anything to be a Sikh.
> 
> ...


 
Very True...some interesting thoughts to contemplate on. Thank you Ji.

also thank you ji for posting the full shabad...i'm going to find myself getting banned from the forum if i continue posting like that...my appologies.

with reference to your comments on the mind and Gurbani/Sikhi being so much more than just that...
I completely agree, but it seems to be such a big part of Gurbani...this barrier of the mind and its workings..
There seems to be so much referrence in Gurbani of a state of being that exists beyond the effects of the 5 thieves...

a whole world of learning and discovery of self, life, each other, God...but this obstacle (mind) often prevents that.


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## spnadmin (Aug 28, 2013)

chazSingh ji

You have to work really hard at being banned. So rest on that point.

More important to me is the continual concern over "subduing" the mind. Your mind is not a "barrier." Is the idea of subdue more like disciplining the mind? Many times we also read 'oh my beautiful mind.' From a simplistic reading the mind is a bother. From a richer reading the mind is the source of bibek. It can be a partner in our desire for vichaar; or it can be an enemy. 

It is actually very patronizing to describe this perspective as "an interesting thought." Particularly when you need your mind to have a thought.

The entire discourse given by Guru Nanak to the sanyasin throughout shabadguru is that subduing the mind by wrestling with the 5 thieves may be a fruitless approach. Someone can spend a lifetime at it and get nowhere. Is there a better approach? An approach that results in coming to a disciplined mind without the brute force of subduing the thieves? What about coming to a place where the 5 thieves no longer dominate but are put in their place? I think so. I do not think the spiritual journey of a Sikh takes place on a battle ground. It is self-defeating to think of it as warfare.

p/s Please do not click on "Appreciate" when is very clear that you are merely tolerating what I have to say.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 28, 2013)

Chazji

I think your a great bloke, but I do imagine you writing some of your apologetic posts through gritted teeth! Although I admire anyone who conducts themselves the way you do, I wonder what it achieves if your life is simply a slog to be as you wish to be, and then escape to meditation to give you the strength to live. Can you feel it? like a hamster on a wheel, no purpose, nothing other than living as a Sikh, and then escapism to bolster you up. 

From a giving point of view, it is magnificent, you truly are a slave to Creation, but from a growing poing of view, from a point of view of stopping the screaming of the thieves, I think something deeper is called for, maybe understanding, maybe wisdom, otherwise we are all just empty bodies going through a routine, never failing, never rising, just stuck on that hamster wheel. 

Although I have directed this at you, it is equally if not more relevant to me, I just felt a kindred spirit looking for the answers

btw I knew that was not your photo, I magine you thinner and better looking!


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## gur_meet (Aug 28, 2013)

wjkk wjkf 
*ਬਿਨੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਉ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Bin māre ki▫o kīmaṯ pā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Without subduing the mind, how can His value be estimated? ||1||Pause||ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਸਕਰੁ ਲੇਈ ॥
Gẖar mėh amriṯ ṯaskar le▫ī.
In the house of the self is the Ambrosial Nectar, which is being stolen by the thieves.

*The word Amrit comes 365 times in SGGSji and refers to "Naam".
The Words "Amrit Naam" comes 90 times in SGGSji.
To know the meaning of this pungtee we have to first see the theme before Rahau (pause) line immediatly preceding where reference is towards "subduing the mind".

The *ਤਸਕਰੁ *means five thieves - kaam , krodh, lobh, moh, ahankar.
The meaning of the line is thus  :

"Attention of the mind should be towards "Naam" but the attention is being stolen ( in a way taken) by the five thieves."​
The straight translation of the line is bringing the confusion as "naam" which is Amrit cannot be stolen or lost.The five thieves keep the mind engrossed towards them and keep it from 'Naam' the amrit.


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## chazSingh (Aug 28, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> chazSingh ji
> 
> You have to work really hard at being banned. So rest on that point.
> 
> ...


 
Admin ji,

I really do appreciate the messages if I click on the appreciate button.

I believe, I know...the mind is a priceless tool...we couldn't function without it in this creation...it is...or should be our friend...but often can be destructive...we all know this..and thus Gurbani discusses it, and as you say I'm using it when throwing my thoughts into Forum 

Therefore I don't think the whole of life should be spent subduing it, but i'm guessing because it's mentioned in Gurbani it's a topic we must spend some time and effort in our lives to understand.

Personally I can tell the difference in daily life...my awareness, my participation in daily life, if like you describe, the mind is a 'partner' and how opposite my actions are when the destructive nature comes out.

maybe its just about swaying the balance to the positive whilst trying not to get obsessed with subduing. doing our seva, sharing etc to change the trend.

The analogy of the battleground is just that..an analogy. its a personal struggle I would guess, and something becomes easier or more difficult...it's definitely not an obsession...not for me anyway.

What are your thoughts on the Ego? is it the mind that creates the Ego experience...the feeling of being separate from God so that the experience of the 'Many' can be had?

Just some thoughts again ji 
and please do not think I am writing any email with ill feeling or that i'm just tolerating your views...I've grown in thought, action, deed from my participation on this Forum...and that's because of all the members...including you ji.

God Bless


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## chazSingh (Aug 28, 2013)

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> 
> I think your a great bloke, but I do imagine you writing some of your apologetic posts through gritted teeth! Although I admire anyone who conducts themselves the way you do, I wonder what it achieves if your life is simply a slog to be as you wish to be, and then escape to meditation to give you the strength to live. Can you feel it? like a hamster on a wheel, no purpose, nothing other than living as a Sikh, and then escapism to bolster you up.
> 
> ...


 
Always appreciate your posts Harry Ji, and definitely no gritted teeth 

if we ever met, i'm sure we'd be discussing such subjects with a smile, a joke, laughter ... but through just words on a forum, things can come across so serious... i'm sure we'd be good friends even in person.

Being stuck on the hamster wheel...believe me...I would have given up a long time ago if I felt like that...through sikhi, I am genuinely exited like never before ji ... I can see the light ji (without sounding like a nutcase)!

God Bless Harry Ji


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## chazSingh (Aug 28, 2013)

gur_meet said:


> wjkk wjkf
> *ਬਿਨੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਉ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥*
> *Bin māre ki▫o kīmaṯ pā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.*
> *Without subduing the mind, how can His value be estimated? ||1||Pause||ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਸਕਰੁ ਲੇਈ ॥*
> ...


 
Thank you Gurmeet Ji,

A very enlightening post. I read a while back in a book that the power of attention is so important. Our attention can get pulled in so many directions on the outside and this can prevent us from spending that little bit of time per day to put our attention 'within'.

Appreciate your input on this post ji.

God Bless


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## findingmyway (Aug 28, 2013)

Guru ji had a great way of taking established concepts and turning them around to mean something else. At the time, amrit was a physical liquid taken from certain sources. Guru ji redefines amrit for the mind and soul, therefore it cannot be physical. Bearing this in mind, the whole shabad is about the mind. The mind is like an elephant (discussed further on several threads previously) and only understanding can break that spell. The shabad talks about how you have to learn to appreciate your mind. Running away like a recluse in useless because it doesn't promote understanding but encourages suppression of the mind. This isn't really helpful as doesn't deal with the source of the elephant like reaction of the mind to the world. Once we realise Ik Oankaar is present everywhere and there is nothing to fear, once we realise what death really is and once we understand our mind, then only can we can we live with a still mind. This can never be achieved by running away or mechanical actions.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 28, 2013)

SGGS is always repeating that the SAADH..the ALMIGHTY..the SATGUR..is WITHIN us...
The MIND..the MANN is the culprit that is flirting endlessly..roaming the universes and galaxies, day and night...manmatt..all this talk of ENEMIES..WAR..BATTLES..SUBDUEING..overpowering  KILLING..etc etc is NOT whats taught in SGGS...these are ALIEN concepts brought in from OUTSIDE.."thieves" who "steal"...are metaphors for whatever that ENCOURAGES the MANN/MIND to take its attention away from GURMATT and into MANMATT. Each precious SECOND wasted in MANMATT..following ones own mind/mann is GONE/STOLEN/LOST..because we have LIMITED seconds..to pay attention to the SAADH within..practise the SAADHS qualities to change our mind/mann to GURMATT..Satgur's ways.
All this talk of enemies... battles is like the Windmills that Sir George fought..a complete waste of precious time...no need to do that at all.All we need to do is CONCENTRATE the Mind towards GURMATT..practise SATful LIVING..enjoy the AMRIT emanating form the SAADH WITHIN this HARMANDAR...but since this is much easier said than done..thats why the 5 Liner MOOL MANTAR has been expanded to 1429 AAngs !!

Stop looking OUTSIDE..stop looking for imaginary "enemies"..."thieves"..doing battles and fighting wars..stop struggling...bring your INNER MIND to a STOP...concentrate on HIM..drink His AMRIT..show the change OUTWARDLY that its GURMATT in CONTROL..and we will be much CLOSER to the SIKHS of 16th Century - those who were roasted alive, cut from limb to limb, cut joint by joint..but when their mouths opened it wasnt screams of pain but JOYOUS JAPJI Sahib......and much FARTHER from the SIKHS of today who draw swords in Gurdwars and cut others for control of golucks and stomp on dastaars in front of SGGS...then the differences between Manmatt-Gurmatt, Amrit-Poison, SAADH/BRAHMGYANI/SANT (within) - fake saadh in round truban and big chola.. etc will be much clearer. SGGS VOCABULARY is 360Degrees OPPOSITE (different) from what the world understands it as....SGGS ...Just one tiny example..."YOGA" is not what the world understands it to be (sitting crosslegged in various asan, feet in the air and head on the ground sort of poses etc etc.) YOGA as per SGGS is for the MANN/MIND because SGGS is for the MANN/MIND...not the physical body. Similarly all other words used in SGGS have a special meaning...it takes practise to learn the real meanings..


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## chazSingh (Aug 29, 2013)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is always repeating that the SAADH..the ALMIGHTY..the SATGUR..is WITHIN us...
> The MIND..the MANN is the culprit that is flirting endlessly..roaming the universes and galaxies, day and night...manmatt..all this talk of ENEMIES..WAR..BATTLES..SUBDUEING..overpowering  KILLING..etc etc is NOT whats taught in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...these are ALIEN concepts brought in from OUTSIDE.."thieves" who "steal"...are metaphors for whatever that ENCOURAGES the MANN/MIND to take its attention away from GURMATT and into MANMATT. Each precious SECOND wasted in MANMATT..following ones own mind/mann is GONE/STOLEN/LOST..because we have LIMITED seconds..to pay attention to the SAADH within..practise the SAADHS qualities to change our mind/mann to GURMATT..Satgur's ways.
> All this talk of enemies... battles is like the Windmills that Sir George fought..a complete waste of precious time...no need to do that at all.All we need to do is CONCENTRATE the Mind towards GURMATT..practise SATful LIVING..enjoy the AMRIT emanating form the SAADH WITHIN this HARMANDAR...but since this is much easier said than done..thats why the 5 Liner MOOL MANTAR has been expanded to 1429 AAngs !!
> 
> Stop looking OUTSIDE..stop looking for imaginary "enemies"..."thieves"..doing battles and fighting wars..stop struggling...bring your INNER MIND to a STOP...concentrate on HIM..drink His AMRIT..show the change OUTWARDLY that its GURMATT in CONTROL..and we will be much CLOSER to the SIKHS of 16th Century - those who were roasted alive, cut from limb to limb, cut joint by joint..but when their mouths opened it wasnt screams of pain but JOYOUS JAPJI Sahib......and much FARTHER from the SIKHS of today who draw swords in Gurdwars and cut others for control of golucks and stomp on dastaars in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...then the differences between Manmatt-Gurmatt, Amrit-Poison, SAADH/BRAHMGYANI/SANT (within) - fake saadh in round truban and big chola.. etc will be much clearer. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji VOCABULARY is 360Degrees OPPOSITE (different) from what the world understands it as....Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ...Just one tiny example..."YOGA" is not what the world understands it to be (sitting crosslegged in various asan, feet in the air and head on the ground sort of poses etc etc.) YOGA as per Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is for the MANN/MIND because Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is for the MANN/MIND...not the physical body. Similarly all other words used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji have a special meaning...it takes practise to learn the real meanings..



Thank you Giani Ji,

Such a great post, and written very cleary 

Athletes often talk about the 'zone'...getting into the zone just prior to sprinting for 100 metres, focusing on one thing and one thing only...the noise of the crowd dissapears...no fears, no doubts, no anxieties....no thought of past success or failures...their mind has become a companion and a friend in that moment.

The ones who fail to get into 'the zone' struggle mentally before the race has even begun.

I believe 100% that when this focus is obtained (through whatever means, mediation, Simran, seva) that within we can come to know of this Amrit.

Thank you ji as always for your input


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## Luckysingh (May 11, 2014)

gur_meet said:


> wjkk wjkf
> *ਬਿਨੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਉ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥*
> *Bin māre ki▫o kīmaṯ pā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.*
> *Without subduing the mind, how can His value be estimated? ||1||Pause||ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਸਕਰੁ ਲੇਈ ॥*
> ...


 
great stuff above ji........ 

The house is within all.
This is the nijh ghar/nijh mahal that one can enter where waheguru himself resides and where the amrit and anhad bani both flow.
The elephant mind as mentioned in the beginning of the shabad, is such, because of it's continuous and enormous flow of thoughts.
These thoughts are all maya and the 5 thieves keep throwing them.

If we subdue these elephant thoughts that fill the mind, down to just ONE thought itself, which is the shabad, then we can begin free ourselves from the shackles of the 5 thieves.
The idea is to eventually have no thoughts and enter the abode of waheguru.


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## Ishna (May 11, 2014)

> The idea is to eventually have no thoughts and enter the abode of waheguru.



Does that mean we can only be in the abode of Waheguru when we have no thoughts in our mind, and when we do have thoughts in our mind we are not in the abode of Waheguru?


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## Luckysingh (May 12, 2014)

Ishna said:


> Does that mean we can only be in the abode of Waheguru when we have no thoughts in our mind, and when we do have thoughts in our mind we are not in the abode of Waheguru?


 
Yep,that's what I think it means as far as I understand.
However, my current understanding maybe much different tomorrow...

Do you think that your state of mind is in the home of sachkhand whilst you have uncontrollable thoughts occupying your mind ?

What's the ONE thought you want to try and get down to and have your full dhian on ??


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## Ishna (May 12, 2014)

Thank you Lucky Ji.

I feel that our constant awareness should include Waheguru amid the other thoughts and everyday going's on, as described below by Bhagat Nam Dayv on panna 972.  Stuff added by edit: Certianly, meditation can help us train our minds, and plenty of research has been done in that field.  Meditation is a means to an end, the end being the constant awareness, the complete simran, the stable state of mind where truthful actions come from, always.  We need to train and control our crazy minds, no doubt about it and meditative techniques can help us with it.  Essentially, though, they are practices which build us up for where it counts; daily life.



> ਬਾਣੀ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਘਰੁ ੧
> बाणी नामदेउ जीउ की रामकली घरु १
> Baṇī nāmḏe▫o jī▫o kī rāmkalī gẖar 1
> The Word Of Naam Dayv Jee, Raamkalee, First House:
> ...


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## Harry Haller (May 12, 2014)

Luckysingh said:


> great stuff above ji........
> 
> The house is within all.
> This is the nijh ghar/nijh mahal that one can enter where waheguru himself resides and where the amrit and anhad bani both flow.
> ...



To have no thoughts seems to me to be pretty unSikh like, it brings to mind the rishis and sages on mountain tops, legs crossed, with no thoughts of anything in their heads other than the Lord Shiva, to be completely wrapped up in that and nothing more, is this Sikhism? 

To me Sikhism is to live, to get off the mountain, and to stop thinking and transform the purity in our heads into actions, rather than panic because our thoughts are not 100% pure. To be in a state where our thoughts are just the one thought, achieves nothing because it is temporary state, a false state if you will, brought about by circumstances (ie quiet room, early morning etc), whereas, in my view, what we should be doing is accepting that our minds are such, filtering out as best we can what we accept to be unpure, and then putting into actions the purity, thus the abode of Waheguru penetrates our every action, thought and life, rather than being somewhere we retreat to to get away from life, 

just my thoughts


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## chazSingh (May 12, 2014)

harry haller said:


> To have no thoughts seems to me to be pretty unSikh like, it brings to mind the rishis and sages on mountain tops, legs crossed, with no thoughts of anything in their heads other than the Lord Shiva, to be completely wrapped up in that and nothing more, is this Sikhism?
> 
> To me Sikhism is to live, to get off the mountain, and to stop thinking and transform the purity in our heads into actions, rather than panic because our thoughts are not 100% pure. To be in a state where our thoughts are just the one thought, achieves nothing because it is temporary state, a false state if you will, brought about by circumstances (ie quiet room, early morning etc), whereas, in my view, what we should be doing is accepting that our minds are such, filtering out as best we can what we accept to be unpure, and then putting into actions the purity, thus the abode of Waheguru penetrates our every action, thought and life, rather than being somewhere we retreat to to get away from life,
> 
> just my thoughts



to have no thoughts means we act on whatever flows through *intuitively / instinct*...straight from the soul...the mind follows direction of the soul..and not the soul being slave to the influence of the mind..

instinct....nothing more...no nonsense hitting us from a million directions in the battlefield of the mind..

once we achieve this, we don;t need to try anymore...it is our true character coming though us..the true light flowing through the fog of the mind...godly attributes being our character...and not the 5 thieves having an input

most of the people i speak to don;t sit on mountain tops... lol
we just spend a little time throughout the day to clear that fog...and when that fog starts to dissepear some pretty amazing things manifest...

then you have the whole day to influence the world with the light that is shining through you..

definately no hiding in mountains away from humanity... lol

God Bless Ji


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## Harry Haller (May 12, 2014)

> to have no thoughts means we act on whatever flows through intuitively / instinct...straight from the soul...the mind follows direction of the soul..and not the soul being slave to the influence of the mind..



none of this makes any sense to me, maybe I do not have a soul, is the concept of a soul even valid in Sikhism, if you have the time, do a search for 'soul' in SriGranth.org, you will find many many hits where it is clearly apparent that the soul is not perfect, and is not the source of all goodness, souls can be evil, souls can be corrupt, to that end your argument is invalid. 



> once we achieve this, we don;t need to try anymore...it is our true character coming though us..the true light flowing through the fog of the mind...godly attributes being our character...and not the 5 thieves having an input



so you are saying that the soul is perfection, the true is without the thieves?



> we just spend a little time throughout the day to clear that fog...and when that fog starts to dissapear some pretty amazing things manifest...



what amazing things? what am I missing?


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## chazSingh (May 12, 2014)

harry haller said:


> none of this makes any sense to me, maybe I do not have a soul, is the concept of a soul even valid in Sikhism, if you have the time, do a search for 'soul' in SriGranth.org, you will find many many hits where it is clearly apparent that the soul is not perfect, and is not the source of all goodness, souls can be evil, souls can be corrupt, to that end your argument is invalid.



You could be right....
but gurbani speaks of our 'light' merging with His 'light', and just by mere definition light corresponds to purity..so deep within us it would suggest we are pure light.

Soul, consiousness whatever you want to call it...Gurbani says we come into this world nake, and we leave naked...

obviously the body is left to rot, what is gurbani referring to when it speaks of us leaving this world?



> so you are saying that the soul is perfection, the true is without the thieves?



in the first watch of the night, in the womb we are meditating on the lord our creator...one with the lord..

In the second watch / Third watch of the night Bani explains the onset of Maya (desires, eGo, anger, lust, attachment) which pulls us around by the hair



> what amazing things? what am I missing?



This really is for you to find and enjoy finding out...

in no way have i uncovered the secrets to creation and met God...but i know i'm on the right path...

and i'm finding a lot is shown by his grace within us...barring initial effort, the rest is in His hands..

just my feelings ji...nothing more..


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## Luckysingh (May 12, 2014)

harry haller said:


> To have no thoughts seems to me to be pretty unSikh like, it brings to mind the rishis and sages on mountain tops, legs crossed, with no thoughts of anything in their heads other than the Lord Shiva, to be completely wrapped up in that and nothing more, is this Sikhism?
> 
> To me Sikhism is to live, to get off the mountain, and to stop thinking and transform the purity in our heads into actions, rather than panic because our thoughts are not 100% pure. To be in a state where our thoughts are just the one thought, achieves nothing because it is temporary state, a false state if you will, brought about by circumstances (ie quiet room, early morning etc), whereas, in my view, what we should be doing is accepting that our minds are such, filtering out as best we can what we accept to be unpure, and then putting into actions the purity, thus the abode of Waheguru penetrates our every action, thought and life, rather than being somewhere we retreat to to get away from life,
> 
> just my thoughts


 
You got the completely wrong thoughts here !

Firstly, in gurbani it emphasizes repeatedly to _detach from maya, to detach from duality_..........BUT there are 2 ways of doing this.

1) is to detach from society, which is what you are talking about above.
2) to detach your affinity and priority to maya WITHIN.

GURMAT- as explained by Guru, is not number (1), the one that you are discussing. Guru tells us to NOT have to detach from maya and worldly society, he tells us that like the lotus you can still get across the world ocean but be risen from the rest of maya.
Therefore, to go hide physically from society is just moving your physical and external self, But Internally you may still be totally attached to maya in thought.

Then how do you do number (2) ??
What is the maya within ???
Again, gurbani also explains what maya is and the different categories of maya....rajo,tamo and sato...

If you stop still and examine your thoughts, they are ALL maya, EXCEPT when you are connected to shabad or waheguru.

When I say in above post, eradicate ALL thoughts and become thoughtless... this is All maya thoughts that we are talking about.
When eventually, you are down to the one last thought of waheguru only, can you become thoughtless by his grace.


The Shabad in the OP, is talking about this process of practical simran.
The simran that is done with self in meditation.
The shabad posted by Ishnaji, is not about this, but it is about how one can be Physical in daily routine And also Spiritual at the same time.
In effect, you could say there are 2 types of simran.....The one you can do in daily, day to day life and the one you do with 100% dhian and devotion in naam simran.

And, I don't think that you can substitute one for another or pick and choose.....
see below post-


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## Luckysingh (May 12, 2014)

Ishna said:


> Thank you Lucky Ji.
> 
> I feel that our constant awareness should include Waheguru amid the other thoughts and everyday going's on, as described below by Bhagat Nam Dayv on panna 972. Stuff added by edit: Certianly, meditation can help us train our minds, and plenty of research has been done in that field. Meditation is a means to an end, the end being the constant awareness, the complete simran, the stable state of mind where truthful actions come from, always. We need to train and control our crazy minds, no doubt about it and meditative techniques can help us with it. Essentially, though, they are practices which build us up for where it counts; daily life.


 

Ishnaji, that is good reply and also one of the chosen shabads by all missionary kathavachaks when they disregard naam simran.

As I explained above, the shabad above is not talking about the same approach as the shabad in OP, and neither is it a replacement.

(When I am using reference of _naam simran_ here, it is referring to the practical meditation practice of simran. Whereas _simran_ on it's own is done 24/7 along with your day to day)

As far as I understand, the shabad above is telling us _how _we can still remain connected in '_dhian'_ and _'chit' _to waheguru whilst going about our day. But we must possess and acquire the qualities that each tuk talks about to do this......

Have you ever wondered why some shabads have different lines that seem to be giving the same message, or could just the rahao line have been enough ?
Well, I always tell myself that the guru is not repeating himself with a throw of words, but there must be some deeper message !
It is dhur ki bhani, so there is not a single tuk that is added without it having it's own unique message and identity.
Sometimes, you see it and at other times you may not see it until years later.

Well, in the above shabad, there is a slightly different message of _''How to be connected with waheguru in day to day life in addition to naam simran''_
..I can only see it at a basic level as yet, but obviously it can be much much deeper.
Gurbani is a treasure of immeasurable depth that can never be fully concluded or boxed.

_ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥_
_Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ._
_One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:_

_ਆਨੀਲੇ ਕਾਗਦੁ ਕਾਟੀਲੇ ਗੂਡੀ ਆਕਾਸ ਮਧੇ ਭਰਮੀਅਲੇ ॥_
_Ānīle kāgaḏ kātīle gūdī ākās maḏẖe bẖarmī▫ale._
_The boy takes paper, cuts it and makes a kite, and flies it in the sky._

_ਪੰਚ ਜਨਾ ਸਿਉ ਬਾਤ ਬਤਊਆ ਚੀਤੁ ਸੁ ਡੋਰੀ ਰਾਖੀਅਲੇ ॥੧॥_
_Pancẖ janā si▫o bāṯ baṯa▫ū▫ā cẖīṯ so dorī rākẖī▫ale. ||1||_
_Talking with his friends, he still keeps his attention on the kite string. ||1||_

Distraction-is main point here........... to not let activities and distractions encountered distract you away from the string that connects you. 
Distractions of all the 5 thieves can loose anyone's string quite easily.

_ਮਨੁ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਾ ਬੇਧੀਅਲੇ ॥_
_Man rām nāmā beḏẖī▫ale._
_My mind has been pierced by the Name of the Lord,_

_ਜੈਸੇ ਕਨਿਕ ਕਲਾ ਚਿਤੁ ਮਾਂਡੀਅਲੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥_
_जैसे कनिक कला चितु मांडीअले ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥_
_Jaise kanik kalā cẖiṯ māŉdī▫ale. ||1|| rahā▫o._
_like the goldsmith, whose attention is held by his work. ||1||Pause||_

Keep your attention on what is the real wealth and value to you. 
The goldsmith handles gems and gold of high maya value and with precision he pierces the joints that may hold ruby's and diamonds on a ring for eg...
In same way, make the naam the piercing connection to the true wealth inside you.... _Naam is the wealth._

_ਆਨੀਲੇ ਕੁੰਭੁ ਭਰਾਈਲੇ ਊਦਕ ਰਾਜ ਕੁਆਰਿ ਪੁਰੰਦਰੀਏ ॥_
_Ānīle kumbẖ bẖarā▫īle ūḏak rāj ku▫ār puranḏrī▫e._
_The young girl in the city takes a pitcher, and fills it with water._

_ਹਸਤ ਬਿਨੋਦ ਬੀਚਾਰ ਕਰਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੀਤੁ ਸੁ ਗਾਗਰਿ ਰਾਖੀਅਲੇ ॥੨॥_
_Hasaṯ binoḏ bīcẖār karṯī hai cẖīṯ so gāgar rākẖī▫ale. ||2||_
_She laughs, and plays, and talks with her friends, but she keeps her attention focused on the pitcher of water. ||2||_

Keeping the connection with waheguru with great CARE at all times.
Being careful so as to not let the water or waheguru's naam spill outside yourself....don't lose it !!

_ਮੰਦਰੁ ਏਕੁ ਦੁਆਰ ਦਸ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਵਨ ਛਾਡੀਅਲੇ ॥_
_Manḏar ek ḏu▫ār ḏas jā ke ga▫ū cẖarāvan cẖẖādī▫ale._
_The cow is let loose, out of the mansion of the ten gates, to graze in the field._

_ਪਾਂਚ ਕੋਸ ਪਰ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਵਤ ਚੀਤੁ ਸੁ ਬਛਰਾ ਰਾਖੀਅਲੇ ॥੩॥_
_Pāŉcẖ kos par ga▫ū cẖarāvaṯ cẖīṯ so bacẖẖrā rākẖī▫ale. ||3||_
_It grazes up to five miles away, but keeps its attention focused on its calf. ||3||_

This one is much deeper, and i'm only touching the surface here!
The ten gates are the ten gates of our body.
The five miles are the 5 gyan indries or 5 senses that extend out our interactions with rest of the maya world.
The calf is the source, mool, origin or atma within us.
We have to take care to not let anything we see, hear,feel, speak and smell, lead us away from our true origin of truth, the mool or atma......

_ਕਹਤ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਤਿਲੋਚਨ ਬਾਲਕੁ ਪਾਲਨ ਪਉਢੀਅਲੇ ॥_
_Kahaṯ nāmḏe▫o sunhu ṯilocẖan bālak pālan pa▫udẖī▫ale._
_Says Naam Dayv, listen, O Trilochan: the child is laid down in the cradle._

_ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਬਿਰੂਧੀ ਚੀਤੁ ਸੁ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਰਾਖੀਅਲੇ ॥੪॥੧॥_
_Anṯar bāhar kāj birūḏẖī cẖīṯ so bārik rākẖī▫ale. ||4||1||_
_Its mother is at work, inside and outside, but she holds her child in her thoughts. ||4||1|| _

It's the LOVE that keeps the mother's thoughts to her child's well being when in the cradle at rest. 
Even when we can't be holding waheguru's name at the forefront of our internal voice as we do when doing jap in naam simran, when not doing practice of jap we may still be holding on to it in thoughts just as the mother holds baby in thoughts when physically it is not holdable in cradle.
In same way, we need to acquire and recognize that Love for sachia patshah at all times and keep that bond and hold in day to day work and rest.



When you start looking deeper and deeper and learning what mythological references are, you may realise that naam simran is essential as simran 24/7.


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## Ishna (May 12, 2014)

Lucky Ji

Thanks for your explanation of the shabad, your thoughts are really helpful.  We should have more of this! 

Can you tell me what a missionary kathavachak is?

It seems that both sides of the community here at SPN have much in common, but it's being lost in terminology.  I think we need a thread to clear the air.


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## Luckysingh (May 13, 2014)

Ishna said:


> Lucky Ji
> 
> Thanks for your explanation of the shabad, your thoughts are really helpful. We should have more of this!
> 
> ...


 
Sure, a missionary is the term coined to followers and preachers that speak against naam simran, meditation, nitnem, rehat..etc..
Kathavachak is used to desribe those raagis that spend more time on gurdwara stages doing katha, preaching..etc.. compared to those that do mainly kirtan.eacesign:


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