# I Refuse To Bow To Guru's Pic. Am I Right?



## gurtej khubbar (Jan 24, 2013)

Dear All

SSA

The more I am understanding gurubani , one thing for clear is that waheguru is the only eternal power who will remain with me for ever. It's for guru's teaching I am able to understand this. But as in many other sikh families , there are gurus pictures and portraits and Sikhs bow to them, for me it is wrong and I am sure that even as per gurus teachings. 

I have also stopped celebrating lohri, rakhi and holi. I can share my life with others in many other ways. Bowing to guru
Pic is no different to idol worship and I reject it.

How can I convince my family and ask them to stop it? Also what will be the most respectable way of getting away with current pictures if guru? Should I hand over to someone else( which I don't want as they will start using them) or something else?

Thanks


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## spnadmin (Jan 24, 2013)

*Re: I refuse to bow to Guru's pic.. Am I right*

gurtej khubbar ji

My penny's worth of opinion.

Sounds as if you are a person of conscience. It can be difficult to find a balance between acting in a way that upholds your beliefs and judging others. Bowing to a picture of one of our Gurus is not required, and many would say it is not even part of Sikhi. We mata tek to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We Sikhs do not engage in worship of idols. For your family bowing to pictures of the Gurus may be a sincere action. They may not see it as a form of worship. I would not judge them. You also should not judge yourself. Be confident. Follow your own wisdom on this matter and do not second-guess yourself.

When you get the message out, That festivals like Lohri are not part of Sikhi, and bowing to pictures is not part of Sikhi either, then you have done your job according to your conscience.


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## Ishna (Jan 24, 2013)

*Re: I refuse to bow to Guru's pic.. Am I right*

Good on you Gurtej ji.

Why don't you try sharing what you've learned from Guru Granth Sahib Ji with your family and ask them why they bow to the pictures, and see if they can back it up with Gurbani?  You don't want to make it an arugment though, just an exchange of ideas to hopefully get them thinking.  Your example is also good.  But you won't be able to change them, they'll have to change themselves (with Guruji kirpa).  So don't sweat it if they don't come around to your way of thinking.

About the pictures, I don't think you necessarily need to get rid of them, unless they are causing other people to bow.  You can still have Sikh artwork as long as you recognise it as such - artwork, an inspiration piece of artwork perhaps, but nothing more.

But if it's easier for you, sell them perhaps on ebay? Or donate them to a charity shop where they might be purchased by a non-Sikh, or for an Indian restaurant.  Give it to someone who you know wouldn't bow to it.  My Gurdwara has lots of paintings and I've never seen anyone bow to them - can you offer them to your Gurdwara?

Good luck
Ishna


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 24, 2013)

*Re: I refuse to bow to Guru's pic.. Am I right*

1. the pics are not real - they are imaginary..and thus DIFFER from painter to painter..
2. They are not "Holy"...( Most people are afraid to get rid of them because they are "holy" and so offer them to Gurdwaras !!or send them for Saskaar !! IF they stop bowing to them that is..
3. Take them OUT of Circulation...burn them..( as I did) because even to a NON-Sikh they give the WRONG IMPRESSION....because the GURU as DESCRIBED IN SGGS is Vastly different from them !! Have you ever seen a Picture of GURU Nanak ji carrying a pile of wet dripping muddy grass on his head ? Have you seen a painting of Guru Nanak ji Farming...ploughing...milking his cows ?? NO..we see Him perpetually sitting under a tree or looking into space with palm up !! THATS NOT GURU NANAK JI in REAL LIFE !! Why perpetuate a  LIE or at best SEMI-TRUTH ??? Same goes for all other pics..Have you seen a Pic of GURU TEG BAHADUR in Battle ?? Have you seen Guru Har rai Ji as a Pharmacist ?? Have you seen Guru harkishan Ji attending to the Sick ??..You see painters pick and choose..and you help perpetuate that fallacy/semitruth by buying and displaying those one sided pics of MULTI sided GURUS..


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## BlazinSikh (Jan 24, 2013)

*Re: I refuse to bow to Guru's pic.. Am I right*

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh! 

Personally I do not see it as an offense if people bow to the pics of Guru's or not the choice is for them to make, not for me to critize. Personally i do bow my head (just my head), in respect to the Guru's, who have shown me the path to Akal Purakh Waheguru Ji. And yes i do agree the pictures of Guru's are all different, but to me they just help me remind the great deal of sacrafice that they have done for us. But yes the day I meet Waheguru Ji (if he/she shows me mercy) then I Will not just bow but, lie my whole body for my Waheguru Ji Sahib.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!


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## gurtej khubbar (Jan 24, 2013)

*Re: I refuse to bow to Guru's pic.. Am I right*

I can in no way justify me bowing
To pictures and idols but at the same time say all other rituals ( fasting, fire worship ) etc are wrong. I actually feel that this defy all the sacrifices the gurus did.. We are just going backwards if we continue to do that.

Sikhi is so pure that even gurus can't
be worshipped , when I bow to gurus,'I am bowing to word ( shabad).. Bani guru, guru hai bani ...
This is what makes me come closer to ultimate reality not the pics


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 24, 2013)

*Re: I refuse to bow to Guru's pic.. Am I right*



gurtej khubbar said:


> Dear All
> 
> SSA
> 
> ...




Gurtej ji, 

Guru Fateh.

First of all I thank you for your candor. Bowing to the pictures is like idol worshipping in my opinion because we do not know if Our Gurus' "pictures" are a lot more or less than it meets the eyes, but more important is that  our Gurus would not want us to do that. If they wanted it, the would have hired great portrait painters of their time, but they did not do that on purpose.

Bow to the Guru that resides in all of us and to the SGGS, our only Guru in order to study it, which will help you breed goodness within to share with others.

Enjoy your journey.

Regards.

Tejwant Singh


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 25, 2013)

*Re: I refuse to bow to Guru's pic.. Am I right*



> I refuse to bow to Guru's pic.. Am I right



You can do what ever you want but you should respect their view,as it is very rare too meet someone wiser than his parent.


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## Harry Haller (Jan 25, 2013)

> The more I am understanding gurubani , one thing for clear is that  waheguru is the only eternal power who will remain with me for ever.  It's for guru's teaching I am able to understand this. But as in many  other sikh families , there are gurus pictures and portraits and Sikhs  bow to them, for me it is wrong and I am sure that even as per gurus  teachings.


A lot of us here have already been through this phase, it is the realisation that we have been fed a complete load of rubbish for years, and that Sikhism is light years away from the Sanatan Vedicised religion that we thought was Sikh. Of course, once we realise this, we feel we have to change the world, spread the message, open the eyes of the blind, etc etc. 

However, do you have the right to chastise someone, much older than you, and tell them that everything they know is actually wrong? that they have spent a lifetime indulging in rituals and ceremonies that have nothing to do with Sikhism? I think we should focus on the young, the growing, try and change the future, rather than the past. 

A year ago, when I was similar to yourself, I was about to inform my father that he was in contravention of Sikh thinking, as he faced a picture of Guru Nanakji and prayed. Although my father is certainly an enlightened man, and able to take criticism from anyone, I did not have the heart. Later I mentioned it, and he smiled at me, 'Son, I am not worshipping the photograph, I am using the image to focus my mind on God, the photo does not just show a Guru, it shows serenity, courage, graciousness, all the facets that I would like to adopt to be more like my Guru'. 

Be careful my friend that your new found enthusiasm does not alienate you from the rest of your family and friends, there is a mid ground, where information can be shared, imparted, without causing offence and making others feel small and uninformed. 

Also, Sikhism is not about ignoring religious festivals, or eating cold porridge whilst the world lets off fireworks, there is no harm in enjoying festivals provided you know that some festivals have little or nothing to do with Sikhism. 

As a Sikh, I do not believe in Christmas, however, it would be petty of me to blind myself to the joyful celebration going on around me, and not be a part of it, or appreciate its colour and magic.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 25, 2013)

> and tell them that everything they know is actually wrong?



Veer Ji It is ones own conceit that makes one think that oneself is right and them wrong,everything you see is your eyes representation of something else.Guru is still family,to keep pictures of your family is good.


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## Luckysingh (Jan 25, 2013)

Bowing to a picture of a guru, is better than bowing to a  baba, gyani, sant mant.!!

We should bow only to the Satguru and the supreme consciousness


I too used to feel this way.
But now I think, well where is Guru Nanak ji ??
He is not around in physical form,but how about his soul or consciousness ??

I like to think of it as being 'ONE' and merged/submerged with the ONE AkAALPURAKH !!o

In effect you are bowing to something that is now complete part of the 'Supreme Consciousness'

This took out the doubt and misconceptions for me, but I acknowledge the picture more and may bow not physically but joining two hands directed to the akalpurakh waheguru, when  picture catches my eye, mann/mind AND chit/consciousness.


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## gurtej khubbar (Jan 25, 2013)

Dear all

I am actually very surprised by some of the responses. I think sikhs have become more concerned about other feeling ( even if parents) then following gurus true teachings. If waheguru is the only ultimate reality then why bow to anyone else even our own gurus. Infant they tried to teach us but we still going back to where they pulled us out from. A picture won't guide me neither my parents. It's the shabad that is important for me.

What will I do if I am stranded on an island alone with no pics, should I stop praying then ? What next , justifying giving water to sun or justify idol worship if Demi gods just because they appeal to Hindus? 

No wonder sikhi talwar nalo tikhi.. 

Once I told my dad that I am not gona allow any alchohal in any of future festivals, he got angry and said we better dont celebrate coz ppl will make fun and say " when it's their turn, they trying to save money now by not offering drinks" , I did a small function in 5 star hotel to everyone surprise and none can say I wants to save
Money  so inshort , we need to do things that ppl don't like if we need to be true to ourself


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## Harry Haller (Jan 25, 2013)

Sikhism is not about changing the world, it is about changing yourself. 

I am certainly glad you have found the path, but by dragging those around you kicking and screaming on it, you will achieve nothing. If it is in them, they will find it themselves, if it is not in them, you are wasting your time, worry about yourself, find the mid ground, what is the point of leaving behind misinformation and incorrect facts, only to embrace Taliban like thinking and force your views on the world?

In this day and age, the numbers of those that worship a book, that pester creator for personal gain, that embrace all the facets that the Gurus encouraged us to forget, are great, huge, the majority. We have to play the long game, and that means acting as Sikhs, thinking like Sikhs, encouraging others, lighting a path, rather than telling everyone else where they are going wrong.


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## Ishna (Jan 25, 2013)

Don't forget sadh sangat, Guruji says there is much to learn from people wiser than ourselves.

Although I commend your committment, when you say you won't allow alcohol, you might consider not putting up a tab perhaps, so you don't pay for the alcohol, but other people can still buy their own at your function.  Perhaps that's what you meant.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 25, 2013)

> A picture won't guide me neither my parents. It's the shabad that is important for me.


Shabad is a sound picture of an Ancient Truth,our Guru's rarely asked their sons what they should do,if your parents should ask your advice then give it, but remain reverent ,they will see from your example that one who knows his place ,knows God.


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## gurtej khubbar (Jan 25, 2013)

harry haller said:


> Sikhism is not about changing the world, it is about changing yourself.
> 
> I am certainly glad you have found the path, but by dragging those around you kicking and screaming on it, you will achieve nothing. If it is in them, they will find it themselves, if it is not in them, you are wasting your time, worry about yourself, find the mid ground, what is the point of leaving behind misinformation and incorrect facts, only to embrace Taliban like thinking and force your views on the world?
> 
> In this day and age, the numbers of those that worship a book, that pester creator for personal gain, that embrace all the facets that the Gurus encouraged us to forget, are great, huge, the majority. We have to play the long game, and that means acting as Sikhs, thinking like Sikhs, encouraging others, lighting a path, rather than telling everyone else where they are going wrong.



It's a very thin line, honestly I don't care what anyone else does but I think it's my duty to them if they are doing anything wrong or if there is something they can improve. It's ones deed that will be judged so I really don't want to interfere in someone's life. But this is a basic thing.

I also try to explain to others including my mum and sis that its very important that they understand the meaning if gurbani as well instead if just doing kirtan. Once they do that they will become more aware themselves , my sister also celebrated karwachauth and I am sure most sikhs do, what is ur take on it? Do u think its fine as this has become part of punjabi life?


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## Harry Haller (Jan 25, 2013)

> It's ones deed that will be judged



I do not agree with this, is it my duty to convert you, or your duty to convert me?

lol lol lol


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 25, 2013)

> if gurbani as well instead if just doing kirtan.



Veera if they do kirtan without understanding you should commend them for their faith atleast.


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## gurtej khubbar (Jan 25, 2013)

harry haller said:


> I do not agree with this, is it my duty to convert you, or your duty to convert me?
> 
> lol lol lol



Sir converting will be if I ask a sikh to start worshipping idols , inamnjust asking then to follow what gurbani actually says


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## gurtej khubbar (Jan 25, 2013)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veera if they do kirtan without understanding you should commend them for their faith atleast.



Veerji I said as well, I am not asking them to stop doing kirtan but I think it's even more
Important to understand it


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 25, 2013)

> Veerji I said as well,



Veera My apologies I misread you,sometimes I think I'm smart as carrots but I must learn from Sir Harry that there is room for improvement.


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## Harry Haller (Jan 25, 2013)

Those that fully understand Gurbani say very little to others


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 25, 2013)

> Those that fully understand Gurbani say very little to others



Ha ha ,thats only because they don't see any others !


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## BlazinSikh (Jan 25, 2013)

gurtej khubbar said:


> Veerji I said as well, I am not asking them to stop doing kirtan but I think it's even more
> Important to understand it



I completley agree with Gurtej Khubbar Ji here! The fact is that most Sikh families (i've no proper proof except my family) do not understand what they read, and what they hear. They just think going to Gurdwara listening to kirtan, and screaming Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh! makes them a sikh, also plus they migrated from punjab which some how technically makes them a sikh. 

However the question is do they know what is being said by the Guru's in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, do they even know that we are meant to consided the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as a Guru and not a Harry Potter book, do they even know what "Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh" means? The matter of fact is if more of sikhi was taught properly in Gurdwara's, and by other, so called sikhs today would either know the in's and out's of sikhi, or then would denounce their faith and not claim to be a sikh. 

See i ain't trying to say that i am a best sikhi (Me Never), but the fact is everyday i learn new things, or find things in sikhi that surprise me, and just makes me eliminate the fallacy of today's "religious" society. And this all because i learn what i say and hear, not just by chanting words that make no sense to me at all. 

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!

(Khalsa belongs to the Waheguru, and the victory to the Waheguru) khandaa


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 25, 2013)

harry haller said:


> Those that fully understand Gurbani say very little to others



Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

Can you please give some concrete examples of your claim because it goes against the reasons and the principles of this very forum SPN?

We all converse and share here and hence learn from each other.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Harry Haller (Jan 26, 2013)

Tejwantji

It was said slightly tongue in cheek,however, we are all on a journey here on this forum, I do not think anyone can say they fully understand the entire concept of Gurbani, a lot of it, in my opinion has to be experienced, and even then, how can you share your experiences to any value. To that end, I cannot see how that statement stops us all sharing and growing, as I, to date, have not come across anyone who I would say knew 'the whole story'. I have come across many who claim they do, and frankly, you cannot shut them up, they end up as the babas and sants that we have come to despise so much.

Also, to me Gurbani is more about actions than talking, The Gurus did a lot and talked very little, it is their actions that today inspire us. 




ਗਾਵੀਐ  ਸੁਣੀਐ  ਮਨਿ  ਰਖੀਐ  ਭਾਉ  ॥ 
गावीऐ सुणीऐ मनि रखीऐ भाउ ॥ 
Gāvī▫ai suṇī▫ai man rakẖī▫ai bẖā▫o. 
Sing, and listen, and let your mind be filled with love. 

Happiness comes from love, be full of love, be happy. 
ਦੁਖੁ  ਪਰਹਰਿ  ਸੁਖੁ  ਘਰਿ  ਲੈ  ਜਾਇ  ॥ 
दुखु परहरि सुखु घरि लै जाइ ॥ 
Ḏukẖ parhar sukẖ gẖar lai jā▫e. 
Your pain shall be sent far away, and peace shall come to your home. 
Sorrow will leave you, you will find contentment

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਨਾਦੰ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਵੇਦੰ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਰਹਿਆ  ਸਮਾਈ  ॥ 
गुरमुखि नादं गुरमुखि वेदं गुरमुखि रहिआ समाई ॥ 
Gurmukẖ nāḏaŉ gurmukẖ veḏaŉ gurmukẖ rahi▫ā samā▫ī. 
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.
 
The will of God is the universal truth
ਗੁਰੁ  ਈਸਰੁ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਗੋਰਖੁ  ਬਰਮਾ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਪਾਰਬਤੀ  ਮਾਈ  ॥ 
गुरु ईसरु गुरु गोरखु बरमा गुरु पारबती माई ॥ 
Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī. 
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
 
Creator is everywhere, in everything, and predates all. 
ਜੇ  ਹਉ  ਜਾਣਾ  ਆਖਾ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਕਹਣਾ  ਕਥਨੁ  ਨ  ਜਾਈ  ॥ 
जे हउ जाणा आखा नाही कहणा कथनु न जाई ॥ 
Je ha▫o jāṇā ākẖā nāhī kahṇā kathan na jā▫ī. 
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words. 

When my connection is supreme, by my actions I will inspire others, mere words cannot communicate what I know about God. 
ਗੁਰਾ  ਇਕ  ਦੇਹਿ  ਬੁਝਾਈ  ॥ 
गुरा इक देहि बुझाई ॥ 
Gurā ik ḏehi bujẖā▫ī. 
The Guru has given me this one understanding: 

If I only ever learn one fact from the Guru
ਸਭਨਾ  ਜੀਆ  ਕਾ  ਇਕੁ  ਦਾਤਾ  ਸੋ  ਮੈ  ਵਿਸਰਿ  ਨ  ਜਾਈ  ॥੫॥ 
सभना जीआ का इकु दाता सो मै विसरि न जाई ॥५॥ 
Sabẖnā jī▫ā kā ik ḏāṯā so mai visar na jā▫ī. ||5|| 
there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||5|| 

There is only God, everywhere, in everything
ਤੀਰਥਿ  ਨਾਵਾ  ਜੇ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਭਾਵਾ  ਵਿਣੁ  ਭਾਣੇ  ਕਿ  ਨਾਇ  ਕਰੀ  ॥ 
तीरथि नावा जे तिसु भावा विणु भाणे कि नाइ करी ॥ 
Ŧirath nāvā je ṯis bẖāvā viṇ bẖāṇe kė nā▫e karī. 
If I am pleasing to Him, then that is my pilgrimage and cleansing bath. Without pleasing Him, what good are ritual cleansings? 

empty rituals please only the brain dead, 
ਜੇਤੀ  ਸਿਰਠਿ  ਉਪਾਈ  ਵੇਖਾ  ਵਿਣੁ  ਕਰਮਾ  ਕਿ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਲਈ  ॥ 
जेती सिरठि उपाई वेखा विणु करमा कि मिलै लई ॥ 
Jeṯī siraṯẖ upā▫ī vekẖā viṇ karmā kė milai la▫ī. 
I gaze upon all the created beings: without the karma of good actions, what are they given to receive? 

We reap what we sow
ਮਤਿ  ਵਿਚਿ  ਰਤਨ  ਜਵਾਹਰ  ਮਾਣਿਕ  ਜੇ  ਇਕ  ਗੁਰ  ਕੀ  ਸਿਖ  ਸੁਣੀ  ॥ 
मति विचि रतन जवाहर माणिक जे इक गुर की सिख सुणी ॥ 
Maṯ vicẖ raṯan javāhar māṇik je ik gur kī sikẖ suṇī. 
Within the mind are gems, jewels and rubies, if you listen to the Guru's Teachings, even once.

Connection is worth more than all the riches in the world, learn how to connect to God


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## Ishna (Jan 26, 2013)

Anand Sahib, ang 918, paurhi 14 
ਭਗਤਾ ਕੀ ਚਾਲ ਨਿਰਾਲੀ ॥
भगता की चाल निराली ॥
Bẖagṯā kī cẖāl nirālī.
The lifestyle of the devotees is unique and distinct.
ਚਾਲਾ ਨਿਰਾਲੀ ਭਗਤਾਹ ਕੇਰੀ ਬਿਖਮ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਚਲਣਾ ॥
चाला निराली भगताह केरी बिखम मारगि चलणा ॥
Cẖālā nirālī bẖagṯāh kerī bikẖam mārag cẖalṇā.
The devotees' lifestyle is unique and distinct; they follow the most difficult path.
ਲਬੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਤਜਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਬੋਲਣਾ ॥
लबु लोभु अहंकारु तजि त्रिसना बहुतु नाही बोलणा ॥
Lab lobẖ ahaŉkār ṯaj ṯarisnā bahuṯ nāhī bolṇā.
They renounce greed, avarice, egotism and desire; they do not talk too much.
ਖੰਨਿਅਹੁ ਤਿਖੀ ਵਾਲਹੁ ਨਿਕੀ ਏਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਜਾਣਾ ॥
खंनिअहु तिखी वालहु निकी एतु मारगि जाणा ॥
Kẖanni▫ahu ṯikẖī vālahu nikī eṯ mārag jāṇā.
The path they take is sharper than a two-edged sword, and finer than a hair.
ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜਿਨੀ ਆਪੁ ਤਜਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਵਾਸਨਾ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥
गुर परसादी जिनी आपु तजिआ हरि वासना समाणी ॥ 
Gur parsādī jinī āp ṯaji▫ā har vāsnā samāṇī. 
By Guru's Grace, they shed their selfishness and conceit; their hopes are merged in the Lord. 
ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਚਾਲ ਭਗਤਾ ਜੁਗਹੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਨਿਰਾਲੀ ॥੧੪॥
कहै नानकु चाल भगता जुगहु जुगु निराली ॥१४॥ 
Kahai Nānak cẖāl bẖagṯā jugahu jug nirālī. ||14|| 
Says Nanak, the lifestyle of the devotees, in each and every age, is unique and distinct. ||14|| ​


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 26, 2013)

ਟੋਡੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਭਗਤਾਂ ਕੀ
टोडी बाणी भगतां की
Todī baṇī bẖagṯāŉ kī
Todee, The Word Of The Devotees:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲੈ ਨਿਰਵਾ ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲੈ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
कोई बोलै निरवा कोई बोलै दूरि ॥
Ko▫ī bolai nirvā ko▫ī bolai ḏūr.
Some say that He is near, and others say that He is far away.

ਜਲ ਕੀ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਚਰੈ ਖਜੂਰਿ ॥੧॥
जल की माछुली चरै खजूरि ॥१॥
Jal kī mācẖẖulī cẖarai kẖajūr. ||1||
We might just as well say that the fish climbs out of the water, up the tree. ||1||

ਕਾਂਇ ਰੇ ਬਕਬਾਦੁ ਲਾਇਓ ॥
कांइ रे बकबादु लाइओ ॥
Kāŉ▫e re bakbāḏ lā▫i▫o.
Why do you speak such nonsense?

ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਓ ਤਿਨਹਿ ਛਪਾਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जिनि हरि पाइओ तिनहि छपाइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jin har pā▫i▫o ṯinėh cẖẖapā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
*One who has found the Lord, keeps quiet about it.* ||1||Pause||


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 26, 2013)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> ਟੋਡੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਭਗਤਾਂ ਕੀ
> टोडी बाणी भगतां की
> Todī baṇī bẖagṯāŉ kī
> Todee, The Word Of The Devotees:
> ...



Scarlet Pimpernel ji,

Guru Fateh.

 Would you be kind enough to give the page number and the whole Shabad with your own understanding/ experience in your own words?

The reason I asked this is because the literal translation is misleading and incorrect.  Please explain what the Rahao part means that you have put in bold for you. Do not be afraid to express your inner feelings about it.

I am a bit  baffled by it because how can anyone be quiet about the omnipresence?!!

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 26, 2013)

> the page number and the whole Shabad with your own understanding/ experience



Veer Ji 

Page number is 718, my own understanding is quite simply a literal one,in my experience one can't gift experience,I was mistaken to emphasise the pause as the line above it equally applies.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 26, 2013)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji
> 
> Page number is 718, my own understanding is quite simply a literal one,in my experience one can't gift experience,I was mistaken to emphasise the pause as the line above it equally applies.



Scarlet Pimpernel ji,

Guru Fateh.

Can you please elaborate what you mean by the above? As mentioned before, the literal translation is not only misleading but also incorrect.

Are you claiming that you are fine with that? Is that your understanding of Gurbani and would you please post the whole Shabad if it is not posted?

One may not be able to gift experience but one can share it in one's own words and its understanding for sure. 

Why don't you do that and help us out? Otherwise, mere copying and pasting incorrect literal translations from the net without having an inkling about it can not lead one towards the path of understanding Gurbani, in order to practice it in one's life.

What do you understand by Rahao in your literal understanding of the Gurbani? What part does it play in the Shabad?

Thanks and regards.

Tejwant Singh


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## Ishna (Jan 26, 2013)

In what way is the translation incorrect and misleading, if indeed there can ever be a correct translation of poetry?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 26, 2013)

The Fish trying to climb the KHAZOOR tree (date palm)...ha ha..its so very very difficult even for the average HUMAN to climb the Slippery date palm successfully..what more for a FISH that lives in water...the analogy is that its "REALLY DIFFICULT if not IMPOSSIBLE to RESOLVE the God is Near  and God is far by merely DEBATING or having Discources ! discussions wont provide the answer !!

Bhagat namdev Ji declares..Hey Friend/Brother..why waste time in such discourses..debates..(showing OFF ones wisdom..education..academic prowess..gyaan..knowledge....the rare human who actually "learns something" STAYS AWAY..(hides)..AVOIDS such Time wasting debates where empty drums make the most noise..( and where "FISH" attempt to show they can climb the date palm !!!)  So the WAY to HIM is not via achieving PHD status in the Vedas Puranas,,becoming the best Akhand Paathi..or Bible reader or becoming Dr Naik on TV....BUT via BHAGTEE..devotion..selfless HUMILITY before HIM...and such acts normally Cannot be done in PUBLIC (hence the word hidden...lokiyah..etc) and whats more no crowds will be attracted to one such bhagatee type of individual..compared to the BOISTEROUS "Pandit" arguing loudly about the Vedas the Puranas the SGGS Koran etc..!!!

The LITERAL TRANSLATION provided leaves so much to be desired..actually the GAPING HOLES look more like Black Holes...anyone depending on this to reach the Message of Bhagat namdev Ji would be sucked into NOTHINGNESS....sad to see how the real Gold of SGGS is being admired superficially ....the real and actual diamonds lie deep beneath the ocean...


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## Ishna (Jan 26, 2013)

> The LITERAL TRANSLATION provided leaves so much to be desired..actually the GAPING HOLES look more like Black Holes...anyone depending on this to reach the Message of Bhagat namdev Ji would be sucked into NOTHINGNESS....sad to see how the real Gold of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is being admired superficially ....the real and actual diamonds lie deep beneath the ocean...


 
Are you sure it's the literal *translation *you're criticising, or is it the literal *interpretation* (even of the original Gurbani) that is the problem?

Because I can't see the for the life of me how the English translation can lose all that extra info you gave us, Gyaniji, but that the original text can pack all that in.

If however you're saying a literal *interpretation* (in either language) is inadequate than fair enough.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 27, 2013)

Ishna said:


> Are you sure it's the literal *translation *you're criticising, or is it the literal *interpretation* (even of the original Gurbani) that is the problem?
> 
> Because I can't see the for the life of me how the English translation can lose all that extra info you gave us, Gyaniji, but that the original text can pack all that in.
> 
> If however you're saying a literal *interpretation* (in either language) is inadequate than fair enough.



Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

Allow me to add my 2 cent worth. There is a difference between *Literal Translation* which is from one language to the other with the absence of symbolic or metaphorical meanings, in this case from Gurmukhi to English in a literal manner. 

*Literal Interpretation* is from the same language which is very common in the field of law.

As Gurbani is all poetry, there are  a lot of symbolic/metaphorical hidden meanings and they can only be understood by reading the whole Shabads and knowing a bit about the author/s.

We all know the story in Genesis 1 that God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th day. If we take this literally, then it makes no sense because we know it took billions of years according to the scientific data available today. 

This would be the same as in the Shabad above about the fish climbing the date tree and we all know that date trees are very tall, hence it is not possible if we translate it literally and we all know that fish do not climb any trees. So, there must be some other symbolic/metaphorical meaning about it which Gyani ji has explained quite well.

Bhagat Namdev was from Maharashatra in Southern India. He was born in the late 13th century. 61 of his hymns are in the SGGS and were added by Guru Arjan Dev, the 5th Guru. He was of Chimba caste which is a Calico cloth printer and considered a low caste.

In this particular Shabad, Bhagat ji is talking about the loud mouth Pundit babbling nonsense to the lay low caste people because only the Pundits were allowed to read the religious scriptures. Hence, whatever nonsense they said was considered "the word of god" because no one was allowed to challenge them. It was their word against no one's.

Sadly, the literal translations of SGGS are very misleading and incorrect because the original ones were done by the Christian missionaries as I mentioned in the other thread.

If you have any other queries, please feel free to ask.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jan 28, 2013)

> One may not be able to gift experience but one can share it in one's own words and its understanding for sure



Veer ji Only life experiences may be shared as they can be related to with or without destiny,the line in bold is not misleading,as for pasting ,I recalled reading that line and it was pasted in support for my Veer Ji Harry, as his post seemed an unsure response to your post wanting concrete proof.

Holy Literature for the  most part at least is straightforward and most of it can be read literally as it was rhetorical or instructing in the first place,when the Guru says *'keeps quiet*' ,it means exactly that.


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## Awakeand Singh (Jan 28, 2013)

Harry ji,

Sikhism_ is_ about changing the world - by changing yourself! That's the only "self" you can ever change.
The world will change, one "self" at a time.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 28, 2013)

Gurtej ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:




> What will I do if I am stranded on an island alone with no pics, should I stop praying then ? What next , justifying giving water to sun or justify idol worship if Demi gods just because they appeal to Hindus?



Do not worry if you had forgotten to pack your Speedos too because Gurbani says," Naked we came, naked we will go".:redturban:



> Once I told my dad that I am not gona allow any alchohal in any of future festivals, he got angry and said we better dont celebrate coz ppl will make fun and say " when it's their turn, they trying to save money now by not offering drinks" , I did a small function in 5 star hotel to everyone surprise and none can say I wants to save



Not serving alcohol has nothing to do with saving. In my family which is scattered in all over the US, Canada and UK, we never serve alcohol, whether it is at the weddings or at any other get togathers. no one seems to dislike us or talk behind us, I think, but if they do, who cares?! However, we go to the parties where they do serve alcohol. It matters naught to us.

I think your devotion to the Guru is taking you to the extremes and making you a bit angry, hence judgemental. Only the true change in you can make you see the things in a different manner. Try to accept others as they are rather than pointing to what you think they should be, which creates a bigger flaw in you. Your own actions will determine their change in your mind.

As the old saying goes," If we change the way we look at things, then the things we look at change".

Enjoy your journey from the within.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 28, 2013)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer ji Only life experiences may be shared as they can be related to with or without destiny,the line in bold is not misleading,as for pasting ,I recalled reading that line and it was pasted in support for my Veer Ji Harry, as his post seemed an unsure response to your post wanting concrete proof.
> 
> Holy Literature for the  most part at least is straightforward and most of it can be read literally as it was rhetorical or instructing in the first place,when the Guru says *'keeps quiet*' ,it means exactly that.



Scarlet Pimpernel ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to differ with you. All experiences, spiritual or not can be shared and interacted with. Sikhi is based on it.

I agree that all literature either holy or not can be read literally provided it is read in its original form, not in the literal incorrect, misleading translations. Here, we are talking about the latter.

Bhagat Nam Dev does not say 





> *keeps quiet*


 in the Shabad. That is what the incorrect literal translation says.

Gyani ji has explained the shabad very well. I would suggest that you go through it again.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 28, 2013)

Our Family not only doesnt drink alcohol..we dont serve...and..we also dont allow anyone who drinks to "bring a bottle"...and we are not bothered about what people say..why would we bother when the GURU says what we want to listen to !! ( Some close friends who are drinkers requested that we allow them to bring their own to my brothers wedding..dad said... NO WAY...i dont even want someone attending who has alcohol in his blood/stomach..let alone in a bottle in his pocket...and so a few grumbled..a few didnt come..good riddance.) The UNHAPPIEST PERSONS are those who spend too much time "Listening to others"....they forget to listen to themselves or the GURU...


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## Ishna (Jan 28, 2013)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Scarlet Pimpernel ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 
What is the literal translation of the Gurbani words to English, word-for-word, if you can, please?

ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਓ ਤਿਨਹਿ ਛਪਾਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 

जिनि हरि पाइओ तिनहि छपाइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 

Jin har pā▫i▫o ṯinėh cẖẖapā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. 

One who has found the Lord, keeps quiet about it. ||1||Pause||


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 28, 2013)

Ishna said:


> What is the literal translation of the Gurbani words to English, word-for-word, if you can, please?
> 
> ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਓ ਤਿਨਹਿ ਛਪਾਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> 
> ...




Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

You have answered your question. The literal translation in English word by word is what you have posted. However, that is not what the message of the Shabad is. Sidh Gosht  and Babarvani are just 2 examples in the SGGS our only Guru. Sikhi is based on questioning and finding answers.*"Mil Sadh Sangat bhaj keval Naam",* as the Gurbani says means study, interact and practice with the like minded or not so like minded but who are ready to interact. This is the essence of learning in Sikhi.

In this typical Shabad, Bhagat Nam Dev ji is kind of taunting the egotistic Pundit about his nonsensical babble which has nothing to do with _*Ik Ong Kaar*_ but about Me-ism. Hence, he is saying that people who are attuned with *The Source* do not flaunt it.

I hope it clears your query.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ishna (Jan 28, 2013)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Ishna ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 

That's great, thanks Tejwant ji.  I just wanted clarity on the point of whether the problem was the *translation* or the *interpretation*.

In this case, it's the *interpretation* which is off, not the translation.  Thanks


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 28, 2013)

Ishna said:


> That's great, thanks Tejwant ji.  I just wanted clarity on the point of whether the problem was the *translation* or the *interpretation*.
> 
> In this case, it's the *interpretation* which is off, not the translation.  Thanks



Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

There is no *interpretation*, so it can not be off. Only * literal translation* is given which does not do any justice to the beautiful Gurbani, but to the contrary, hence misleading. Any scholar who translates something from one language to the other; especially poetry has the duty to explain what the original author is trying to convey, otherwise literal translations become dangerously useless and meaningless.


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## Ishna (Jan 28, 2013)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Ishna ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> There is no *interpretation*, so it can not be off. Only *literal translation* is given which does not do any justice to the beautiful Gurbani, but to the contrary, hence misleading. Any scholar who translates something from one language to the other; especially poetry has the duty to explain what the original author is trying to convey, otherwise literal translations become dangerously useless and meaningless.


 
If the English translation is a literal translation of the Gurbani, that means the Gurbani says pretty much exactly what the English says. So, if a Punjabi speaking person read the exact same passage and was not aware of what the original author is trying to convey, they will likewise have a literal, dangerously useless and meaningless understanding of the verse.

Therefore, it's not the translation's problem.

The poetry is presuming a level of background understanding or that the reader will know the context, the kind that was provided to us by Gyaniji, for the benefit of English and Punjabi readers.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 29, 2013)

Ishna said:


> If the English translation is a literal translation of the Gurbani, that means the Gurbani says pretty much exactly what the English says. So, if a Punjabi speaking person read the exact same passage and was not aware of what the original author is trying to convey, they will likewise have a literal, dangerously useless and meaningless understanding of the verse.
> 
> Therefore, it's not the translation's problem.
> 
> The poetry is presuming a level of background understanding or that the reader will know the context, the kind that was provided to us by Gyaniji, for the benefit of English and Punjabi readers.



Ishna ji,

Guru Fateh.

Probably I was not able to express what I wanted to say in a proper manner, so let me try it in a different way. 

First and foremost, Bhagat Bani is one of the most intricate and a bit difficult to understand unlike most of The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Arjan Dev ji added Gurbani of 15 Bhagats in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, who were scattered all over India with different languages, dialects and cultural values unlike our Sikh Gurus who were all Punjabis. The  5th Guru chose some of their poetry which jived with the Sikhi marg of pragmatism. Not all of it. The  Bhagats were all originally Hindus but evolved with time  through their travels around India, towards the Oneness in all. Hence, only that kind of poetry was chosen by Guru Sahib.

Bhagat Namdev travelled all the way to Punjab which is thousands of miles from his birth place. They all used the mixture of different languages. So, it takes a bit of deep studies to understand the true meaning literally in the original language. 

Let’s try to understand the rahao part that you posted.
ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਓ ਤਿਨਹਿ ਛਪਾਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 

जिनि हरि पाइओ तिनहि छपाइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 

Jin har pā▫i▫o ṯinėh cẖẖapā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. 

One who has found the Lord, keeps quiet about it. ||1||Pause||

The word ਛਪਾਇਓ   in Gurmukhi does not mean *to keep quiet* in literal translation but it means* to hide, to shut up or not to flaunt.*.

As Sant Singh Khalsa, the translator is a Sikh Scholar, one expects him to understand the words in the original language /Gurmukhi/Punjabi so well that they can be translated in the right manner.

Scholars are there to make things easier for a lay person like me to grasp the meaning in which Sant Singh Khalsa has failed because he has translated the Punjabi words incorrectly, hence made it more difficult to comprehend what Bhagat Namdev is talking about. It is not only in this Shabad but in most of his translation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. BTW Gyani ji did a great service to decipher the Shabad.

One other main error is the use of the word* Lord* for *Ik Ong Kaar* We all know* Lord is used for a deity* which Sikhi rejects and I personally never use it. In fact I wrote about it in a little article here on SPN many years ago. I will try to locate it and post it again. 

If I am not mistaken Sant Singh Khalsa is a Sikh convert from Christianity/Judaism and from his literal translations, one can gather that he has not mastered the Gurmukhi/ Punjabi language well as yet, and it is also not possible not to carry the Christian/Judaic  baggage which becomes innately etched in oneself due to the environmental and multi-generational factors.

As mentioned earlier, the original translations into English were done by the Christian Missionaries not by any Sikhs. That is why we see the old Biblical slant of the words like thou, thee, Lord etc. etc. in the translations. The Sikhs who studied under the missionaries' tutelage also used the same method. Bhai Manmohan Singh is one of them.

We are in desperate need of a great modern translation in English. Ambarsaria ji has done a great job in some and so has Findingmyway ji on Sidh Gosht. One day someone will add something more.

If you understand Gurmukhi, then I would suggest you take a look at Prof. Sahib Singh's Teeka in which Prof. ji explains the meaning of Gurbani the best so far. It would be a great start for you. I, myself use different Teekas for the same Shabad to grasp the idea better.

On a side note,for you to have a better idea about Bhagat Bani, please look at the Saloks of Sheikh Farid on SPN.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Here we go: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/186-lord-as-ik-ong-kaar.html

One more for your consideration: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/quest...nslations-word-word-translations-gurbani.html


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## Luckysingh (Jan 29, 2013)

One who has found the lord then shuts up ! 
The one who rambles on about it, has NOT found the Lord.

I think that's the message,more or less ...correct ?


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## spnadmin (Jan 29, 2013)

Luckysingh said:


> One who has found the lord then shuts up !
> The one who rambles on about it, has NOT found the Lord.
> 
> I think that's the message,more or less ...correct ?



Luckysingh ji

I agree. The people who take center stage and yes, ramble, as in give rambling lectures about finding the lord - how and when and why and where and what everyone else needs to know - and they are in the know. Whenever I spot that I think that is someone who lives in his/her head... it is all theoretical, and also kind of sad.


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## Luckysingh (Jan 29, 2013)

It's OK, I wasn't trying to state, I was just confirming that I got the rahao correct.
Thanks to everyone's contributions did I actually begin to see the fault in the translation.
I too would have thought that it meant 'keep quiet, it's my little secret...shhhh!'


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## Harry Haller (Jan 29, 2013)

I am quite averse to basing posts on Sakhis, but this one seems well known, 

If one truly knew God, you would think they would be the first to climb a stadium and start sharing, but I do not think it works that way, they say the 9th master spent his time in quiet contemplation, while all around proclaimed themself Guru, Guru Teg Bahadur behaved just as I would have expected a man of God to behave, instead of running round telling all he was Guru, he waited for the right oppertunity, and made a statement of self deprecating humour,' hey wheres the rest of the gold?'

I believe true men of God, those with the supreme connection, help, point, assist, nurture, teach, advise, all of us, in ways we could not even imagine, it is only the foolish, or those that know some, but not all, that proclaim, 'yes, I know God'.


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## Awakeand Singh (Jan 29, 2013)

harry haller said:


> I am quite averse to basing posts on Sakhis, but this one seems well known,
> 
> If one truly knew God, you would think they would be the first to climb a stadium and start sharing, but I do not think it works that way, they say the 9th master spent his time in quiet contemplation, while all around proclaimed themself Guru, Guru Teg Bahadur behaved just as I would have expected a man of God to behave, instead of running round telling all he was Guru, he waited for the right oppertunity, and made a statement of self deprecating humour,' hey wheres the rest of the gold?'
> 
> I believe true men of God, those with the supreme connection, help, point, assist, nurture, teach, advise, all of us, in ways we could not even imagine, it is only the foolish, or those that know some, but not all, that proclaim, 'yes, I know God'.



Conversely, I believe it was I J Singh who pointed out that the quickest way to lose the Guru's _nadar_ is to think that you've got it!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 29, 2013)

After this lesson..i hope everyone will take a good hard look at the Sant Singh Khalsa *MISTRANSLATION *which has gained popularity simply due to being the first kid on the Block...not for being CORRECT or to the POINT or CLOSE to the ORIGINAL as Prof Sahib Singh Jis  SGGS Darpan is !!

1. The SIKH GURUS are Simple Folks..using the Simple language and idiom

2. The Sikh Gurus NEVER hide anything...no such thing as "secret..dont tell anyone..shhhhhhhhh....EVERY treasure is on the Table..every Card Face side up ( as Tejwant Ji form Las Vegas would definitely second !!)

3. There is a Vast background to SGGS Gurbani...it helps to get to that before attempting simplistic translations - Its sad to note that there are two EXTREMES in SGGS Teekas..the SAFFRONISED ONES..  and the CHRISTIANISED ONES....BOTH FAIL to address the Originality of SGGS. Dont fall for the gold plating or Haldi plating....the Colour of SGGS is...XANTHIC !!cheerleader


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