# Meaning Of This Shabad Please Ang 388



## passingby

Dear friends, please share what you understand from this shabad.

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ ਇਹ ਮਾਲਾ ॥
These two words, Har, Har, make up my maalaa.
ਜਪਤ ਜਪਤ ਭਏ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥੧॥
Continually chanting and reciting this rosary, God has become merciful to me, His humble servant. ||1||
ਕਰਉ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਪੁਨੀ ॥
I offer my prayer to the True Guru.
ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਦੇਹੁ ਹਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Shower Your Mercy upon me, and keep me safe in Your Sanctuary; please, give me the maalaa, the rosary of Har, Har. ||1||Pause||
ਹਰਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਉਰ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਧਾਰੈ ॥
One who enshrines this rosary of the Lord's Name within his heart,
ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਕਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ॥੨॥
is freed of the pains of birth and death. ||2||
ਹਿਰਦੈ ਸਮਾਲੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਬੋਲੈ ॥
The humble being who contemplates the Lord within his heart, and chants the Lord's Name, Har, Har, with his mouth,
ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਇਤ ਉਤ ਕਤਹਿ ਨ ਡੋਲੈ ॥੩॥
never wavers, here or hereafter. ||3||
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੋ ਰਾਚੈ ਨਾਇ ॥
Says Nanak, one who is imbued with the Name,
ਹਰਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੯॥੭੦॥
goes to the next world with the maalaa of the Lord's Name. ||4||19||70|| 
(389, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

PASSINBY Ji,
There is a real spritual message in this Sabad.The sabad conveys complete and clear message of Naamu which is the essence of the whole of Gurbanee.
One should give attention to the pair of Words as <Hari.Hari> .

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

The word is HAR and NOT ...HARI....... the *SIHAREE* is NOT a *BIHAREE..*.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> The word is HAR and NOT ...HARI....... the *SIHAREE* is NOT a *BIHAREE..*.


 
That is why I have used small "i" with the word Har not capital "I".
I think the matra of Sihari can be indicated thru   small i as the matra of Biharee is  being indicated thru capital I.

Prakash.S./Bagga


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

ਸਫਲ ਮੂਰਤੁ ਸਫਲ ਓਹ ਘਰੀ ॥
सफल मूरतु सफल ओह घरी ॥
Safal mūraṯ safal oh gẖarī.
Blessed auspicious moment, blessed is that time,

ਜਿਤੁ ਰਸਨਾ ਉਚਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰੀ ॥੨॥
जितु रसना उचरै हरि हरी ॥२॥
Jiṯ rasnā ucẖrai har harī. ||2||
when my tongue chants Har Haree. ||2||
Guru Arjan Dev ji, 191

:grinningsingh:


----------



## Harry Haller

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ ਇਹ ਮਾਲਾ ॥

I do not need a rosary when I have Creator

ਜਪਤ ਜਪਤ ਭਏ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥੧॥

By contemplating Creator I achieve more than stroking beads

ਕਰਉ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਪੁਨੀ ॥

I ask Creator

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਦੇਹੁ ਹਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

to keep my mind free from agitation by contemplating you always 24/7

ਹਰਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਉਰ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਧਾਰੈ ॥

One who can contemplate you like this

ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਕਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ 

has no attachment or fear to  worldly pain or pleasure


ਹਿਰਦੈ ਸਮਾਲੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਬੋਲੈ 

Those whose minds constantly contemplate Creator

ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਇਤ ਉਤ ਕਤਹਿ ਨ ਡੋਲੈ ॥੩॥

have no wish to deviate from the true path

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੋ ਰਾਚੈ ਨਾਇ ॥

Nanak says one whose contemplation of Creator is embedded within

ਹਰਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੯॥੭੦॥

leaves this world with that  embodiment intact

my own interpretation, for heretics use only


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



BhagatSingh said:


> ਸਫਲ ਮੂਰਤੁ ਸਫਲ ਓਹ ਘਰੀ ॥
> सफल मूरतु सफल ओह घरी ॥
> Safal mūraṯ safal oh gẖarī.
> Blessed is that moment, and blessed is that time,
> 
> ਜਿਤੁ ਰਸਨਾ ਉਚਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰੀ ॥੨॥
> जितु रसना उचरै हरि हरी ॥२॥
> Jiṯ rasnā ucẖrai har harī. ||2||
> when my tongue chants the Name of the Lord, Har, Haree. ||2||
> Guru Arjan Dev ji, 191
> 
> :grinningsingh:


 
We can not use coma indication as per our choice.There has to be some specific rule of making use of Coma we should know and make use of that rule otherwise we wont get to the correct meanings .That is what I observe in Gurbanee.
Prakash.s.Bagga


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

I foresee the emergence of a new sect within the Sikh spiritual tradition. The heresikhs ahaha lol

Prakash ji,
You are right, let me edit my previous response.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

Bhagt Ji..

HereSIKHS looks ok..compared to HereTICS..because tic(k)s only on dogs deer cats etc.ha ha..i prefer to be a heresikh...but not  a heretick..


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

haha fair enough


----------



## Archived_member15

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

It seems to me to be speaking about interior prayer, what Christians might call Prayer of the Heart as opposed to prayer of the head. What is contrasted in this Shabad is, "_One who enshrines this rosary of the Lord's Name within his heart_" what we might call a true seeker, and one who is merely fixated with exterior, outward forms of prayer. The Granth is telling us to descend from our head into our heart. Don't become attached to outward forms of prayer, to the literal act of counting physical rosary beads, just enshrine the rosary of the true Naam within the very centre of your being, your heart-centre. The Sufis have a saying, "_The Mind is the slayer of the Real_". Prayer is not an affair of the mind. It is a movement of one's whole being. As long as we talk to God vocally or indeed in our head alone, He remains something external too us and our thoughts will continue to whirl about like airplanes flying in the air. We must create an airport within our hearts for these thoughts to land and dissipate, so that all of our attention can be focused upon the Divine Will. Our focus must descend into our heart, so that our prayer is real and authentic and not a mere repitition of meaningless words. 





_"...You must descend from_
_your head into your heart._
_At present your thoughts of God_
_are in your head. And God Himself is,_
_as it were, outside you, and_
_so your prayer and other spiritual_
_exercises_
_remain exterior. Whilst you are still_
_in your head,_
_thoughts will not easily be subdued but_
_will always be whirling about, like snow_
_in winter or_
_clouds of mosquitoes in summer..." _



_*- Saint Theophan the Recluse (1815 - 1894), Eastern Orthodox mystic*_


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

VOUTHON Ji,
The messages of the whole Gurbanee are directed for the Munn which is close associate of the heart.Ultimately Gurbanee directs for the Word of GuR to be seeded wihin Heart only then only one can attain a real state of Simran of Naamu.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Archived_member15

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> VOUTHON Ji,
> The messages of the whole Gurbanee are directed for the Munn which is close associate of the heart.Ultimately Gurbanee directs for the Word of GuR to be seeded wihin Heart only then only one can attain a real state of Simran of Naamu.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


 
My dear brother prakash :singhsippingcoffee:
I believe what you say wholeheartedly. Beautifully explained! :sippingcoffeemunda:


----------



## Ambarsaria

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> That is why I have used small "i" with the word Har not capital "I".
> I think the matra of Sihari can be indicated thru   small i as the matra of Biharee is  being indicated thru capital I.
> 
> Prakash.S./Bagga


Veer give us your understanding of the sabad beyond sihari, bihari and coma?  All your corrections don't carry same weight unless you present your correct version for others to understand.  I know you won't but just in case you have decided to contribute towards helping each other versus just flagging so called less than perfection only as per your own mind!  I will keep pushing till the last day as it will benefit you too.

I am working on my input and will post later today as requested by the poster and thread starter.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

There are a few issues to be addressed here. 

First issue -
Elsewhere, especially verses of the 4th Guru mention Har Har many times over. So it may seem that Har Har chanting is more important than Vaheguru chanting. Because more is mentioned about Har Har than Vaheguru Vaheguru.

The second issue - 
Gurbani does not stress on words like Har Har (like a power mantra of some sort) because there are so many other names of God prescribed in SGGS. 

Third Issue -
The 5th Guru said 'Satnam' tera para purbala...
So does that mean we should give more importance to Satnam than any other word? 

I don't think words come before the experience, so to speak. Guru's wrote gurbani thru direct experiences. The written word is an attempt to express the real experience. The written word is a motivation for us to work thru towards spiritual experiences.

Anybody with spiritual experiences who want to share?


----------



## Harry Haller

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

Astroboyji

I agree, and sometimes I do not understand those that take this literally and try and find spirituality through the words rather than the real experience. 

I have had no spiritual experiences at all, I have, through various substances,  conversed with pink elephants, had meetings with 3 solicitors who all had baboons heads and driven my car through what seemed like a the Milky Way, and I still feel that such 'spiritual experiences' that are experienced through chanting are no different to what I was meddling with in my unwholesome past. 

However, I have observed that when I am in consonance with Creation, positive things do happen to me, not because of reward, or magic, or even because I asked for them to happen (which I did not), but because I am in consonance, my actions are in consonance, my thoughts, my speech, and from such, only good things tend to happen, or even if bad things happen, I find the bad things would have been a lot more worse, a basic example is assisting someone who is down on their luck, and then finding the same walks into your shop years later and orders a whole load of hardware, although once, I did change a tyre for a middle class male type in a mercedes, who had no idea how to do it, and then get stopped for speeding on the way home. Strangely my speed was 89 MPH just under the threshold for a court appearance, thinking back, maybe if I had not stopped, I would have been caught at a faster speed, but I am , at this stage in my life, convinced that following Hukam gives you the best chance of a peaceful happy fulfilled life, the householder portion that Guru Nanak Ji was so keen that we upheld and cherished, as well as the spiritual. 

I also feel that a truly spiritual person feels that it is the most normal thing in the world, and would not even be aware of their spirituality per se.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



Astroboy said:


> There are a few issues to be addressed here.
> 
> First issue -
> Elsewhere, especially verses of the 4th Guru mention Har Har many times over. So it may seem that Har Har chanting is more important than Vaheguru chanting. Because more is mentioned about Har Har than Vaheguru Vaheguru.
> 
> The second issue -
> Gurbani does not stress on words like Har Har (like a power mantra of some sort) because there are so many other names of God prescribed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
> 
> Third Issue -
> The 5th Guru said 'Satnam' tera para purbala...
> So does that mean we should give more importance to Satnam than any other word?
> 
> I don't think words come before the experience, so to speak. Guru's wrote gurbani thru direct experiences. The written word is an attempt to express the real experience. The written word is a motivation for us to work thru towards spiritual experiences.
> 
> Anybody with spiritual experiences who want to share?


 
The word Hari.Hari" has been used by every Guru and Every Bhgat and even by Bhats in their contribution of Banee.
In the very first Raagu M 1 we can see this word as
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਹੁ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਲੇ ਹਰਿ ਬੋਲਿ ॥ ਮਨੁ ਸਚ ਕਸਵਟੀ ਲਾਈਐ ਤੁਲੀਐ ਪੂਰੈ ਤੋਲਿ ॥ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਰਿਦ ਮਾਣਕ ਮੋਲਿ ਅਮੋਲਿ ॥੧॥ ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਹੀਰਾ ਗੁਰ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਲਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

_It is true that this word "Hari.Hari" is profusely used by 4th Nanak._

_We should look for a reasonable reason for this. isnt that necessary?_

_Unless we are able to understand that NAME is not NAAMu.It is rather impossible to realise the significance of this Unique pair of word "Hari.Hari"_

_Prakash.S.Bagga_


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



Ambarsaria said:


> Veer give us your understanding of the sabad beyond sihari, bihari and coma? All your corrections don't carry same weight unless you present your correct version for others to understand. I know you won't but just in case you have decided to contribute towards helping each other versus just flagging so called less than perfection only as per your own mind! I will keep pushing till the last day as it will benefit you too.
> 
> I am working on my input and will post later today as requested by the poster and thread starter.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
You keep your going ,I shall take care for myself. There is no competition  going on here.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਹੁ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਲੇ ਹਰਿ ਬੋਲਿ ॥ ਮਨੁ ਸਚ ਕਸਵਟੀ ਲਾਈਐ ਤੁਲੀਐ ਪੂਰੈ ਤੋਲਿ ॥ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਰਿਦ ਮਾਣਕ ਮੋਲਿ ਅਮੋਲਿ ॥੧॥ ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਹੀਰਾ ਗੁਰ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਲਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥


The word is used in many contexts.  Approaching it with one context will be wrong and hence it is futile to try to do it.  See the following examples from Mahan Kosh excerpt,



> *[SIZE=-1]Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia[/SIZE]* [SIZE=-0] ਵਿ- ਹਰ਼ਿਤ (ਹਰਾ) *GREEN* ਦਾ ਸੰਖੇਪ. "ਦਾਵਾ ਅਗਨਿ ਰਹੇ ਹਰਿ ਬੂਟ". (ਰਾਮ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੫) ਹਰੇ  ਬੂਟੇ। (2) ਹਰਇੱਕ. ਹਰੇਕ. *EVERYONE; ALL* "ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ". (ਗੂਜ ਮਃ ੪)। (3) ਕਿਰ. ਵਿ-  ਹਰਕੇ. ਚੁਰਾਕੇ. *STEAL* "ਹਰਿ ਧਨ ਪਾਪ ਕਰੰਤ". (ਸਲੋਹ)।
> 
> Deity references 4 and 5.
> (4) ਸੰ. (हृ- इन) {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}.  ਵਿਸਨੁ. "ਦਸਿਕ ਅਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਘਾਏ". (ਹਜਾਰੇ ੧੦)। (5) ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ੬. ਪੌਂਡਕ  ਵਾਸੁਦੇਵ. "ਆਇ ਭਿਰ੍ਯੋ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਂ". ¹ (ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਾਵ) ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਨਾਲ ਪੌਂਡ੍ਰਕ  ਵਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਆਕੇ ਲੜਿਆ।
> 
> Many other secondary as below,
> (7) ਕਰਤਾਰ. ਪਰਮੇਸ਼੍ਵਰ. *CREATOR* "ਬਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਨ ਬਾਚਨ ਪੈਹੈ". (ਹਜਾਰੇ  ੧੦) "ਹਰਿ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਣੁ ਦੀਅਉ ਸਿਰਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਤਹ ਬੈਠਾਯਉ". (ਸਵੈਯੇ ਮਃ ੫. ਕੇ)। (8)  ਚੰਦ੍ਰਮਾ.*MOON* "ਹਰਿ ਸੋ ਮੁਖ ਹੈ". (ਚੰਡੀ ੧)। (9) ਸਿੰਹੁ. ਸ਼ੇਰ। *LION* (10) "ਹਰਿ ੧੦. ਸੂਰਜ. *SUN* "ਹਰਿ ਵੰਸ਼ ਵਿਖੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਭਏ". (ਗੁਪ੍ਰਸੂ)। (11) ਤੋਤਾ।*PARROT* (12) ਸਰਪ। *SNAKE*(13) ਬਾਂਦਰ.  ਵਾਨਰ. "ਹਤ ਰਾਵਣ ਕੋ ਲਿਯ ਸੰਗ ਚਮੂ ਹਰਿ". (ਗੁਪ੍ਰਸੂ)। (14) ਡੱਡੂ. ਮੇਂਡਕ। (15)  ਪੌਣ. ਹਵਾ। (16) ਘੋੜਾ। (17) ਯਮ। (18) ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ। (19) ਇੰਦ੍ਰ। (20) ਕਿਰਣ.  ਰਸ਼ਿਮ੍*। (21) ਮੋਰ। ੨੨ ਕੋਕਿਲਾ। ੨੩ ਹੰਸ। ੨੪ ਅਗਨਿ। ੨੫ ਜਲ. ਦੇਖੋ, ਘਨਿ। ੨੬ ਪੀਲਾ  ਰੰਗ। ੨੭ ਮਾਰਗ. ਰਸਤਾ। ੨੮ ਪਰਬਤ। ੨੯ ਹਾਥੀ। ੩੦ ਕਮਲ। ੩੧ ਰਾਜਾ। ੩੨ ਭੌਰਾ. ਭ੍ਰਮਰ।  ੩੩ ਸੁਵਰਣ. ਸੋਨਾ. "ਸ੍ਰਿੰਗ ਧਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਧੇਨੁ ਹਜਾਰਾ". (ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਾਵ) ੩੪ ਕਾਮਦੇਵ। ੩੫  ਮ੍ਰਿਗ. ਹਰਿਣ (ਹਰਨ) ੩੬ ਬਨ. ਜੰਗਲ. ਦੇਖੋ, ਦੌਂ। ੩੭ ਮੇਘ. ਬੱਦਲ. "ਘਨ ਸ੍ਯਾਮ ਬਿਰਾਜਤ  ਹੈਂ ਹਰਿ, ਰਾਧਿਕਾ ਬਿੱਦੁਲਤਾ". (ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਾਵ) ੩੮ ਆਕਾਸ਼। ੩੯ ਧਨੁਖ। ੪੦ ਬਾਣ. ਤੀਰ। ੪੧  ਖੜਗ. "ਕਰੱਧਰ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ" (ਚੰਡੀ ੧) ੪੨ ਸੰਖ "ਨਾਦ ਪ੍ਰਚੰਡ ਸੁਨ੍ਯੋ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ".  (ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਾਵ) ੪੩ ਚੰਦਨ. "ਹਿਰਡ ਪਲਾਸ ਸੰਗ ਹਰਿ ਬੁਹੀਆ". (ਬਿਲਾ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੪) ੪੪ ਹਰਿ  ਚੰਦਨ, ਜੋ ਸੁਰਗ ਦਾ ਬਿਰਛ ਹੈ". ਪਾਰਜਾਤ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੁਖੁ". (ਟੋਡੀ ਮਃ ੫) ਪਾਰਿਜਾਤ ਅਤੇ  ਹਰਿਚੰਦਨ ਬਿਰਛ ਹਰਿ (ਕਰਤਾਰ) ਹੈ. ਉੱਪਰ ਲਿਖੇ ਹਰਿ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੇ ਬਹੁਤ ਉਦਾਹਰਣ ਹੇਠ ਲਿਖੇ  ਸਵੈਯੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਦੇਖੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ- (ੳ) ਹਰਿ ਸੋ ਮੁਖ ਹੈ ਹਰਤੀ ਦੁਖ ਹੈ, ਅਲਕੈਂ ਹਰਹਾਰ  ਪ੍ਰਭਾ ਹਰਨੀ ਹੈ। (ਅ) ਲੋਚਨ ਹੈਂ ਹਰਿ ਸੇ ਸਰਸੇ, ਹਰਿ ਸੇ ਭਰੁਟੇ ਹਰਿ ਸੀ ਬਰਨੀ ਹੈ।  (ੲ) ਕੇਹਰਿ ਸੋ ਕਰਿਹਾਂ, ਚਲਬੋ ਹਰਿ, ਪੈ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਹਰਨੀ ਤਰਨੀ ਹੈ। (ਸ) ਹੈ ਕਰ ਮੇ ਹਰਿ  ਪੈ ਹਰਿ ਸੋ, ਹਰਿਰੂਪ ਕਿਯੇ ਹਰ ਕੀ ਧਰਨੀ ਹੈ. (ਚੰਡੀ ੧) (ਉ) ਚੰਦ ਜੇਹਾ ਮੁਖ ਹੈ, ਦੁੱਖ  ਦੂਰ ਕਰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜੁਲਫਾਂ ਸ਼ਿਵ ਦੇ ਹਾਰ (ਸੱਪ) ਦੀ ਸ਼ੋਭਾ ਚੁਰਾਉਂਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ. (ਅ) ਨੇਤ੍ਰ  ਕਮਲ ਤੋਂ ਵਧਕੇ ਕਮਾਣ ਜੇਹੀ ਭੌਹਾਂ, ਤੀਰ ਜੇਹੀ ਪਲਕਾਂ ਹਨ. (ੲ) ਸ਼ੇਰ ਜੇਹਾ ਕਟਿਭਾਗ,  ਹਾਥੀ ਜੇਹੀ ਚਾਲ, ਹਰਿ ਤਰੁਣੀ (ਕਾਮ ਦੀ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ- ਰਤਿ) ਦੀ ਸ਼ੋਭਾ ਦੂਰ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਹੈ.  (ਸ) ਹੱਥ ਵਿੱਚ ਖੜਗ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਸੂਰਜ ਜੇਹਾ ਚਮਕੀਲਾ ਹੈ, ਮਨੋਹਰ ਰੂਪ ਧਾਰੇ ਹੋਏ ਸ਼ਿਵ ਦੀ  ਅਰਧਾਂਗਿਨੀ ਹੈ. [¹ਦੇਖੋ, ਪਉਡਰੀਕ.] [/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]Sat Sri Akal.
[/SIZE]


----------



## Scarlet Pimpernel

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

The Rosary is of Respiration ,


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> _Unless we are able to understand that NAME is not NAAMu.It is rather impossible to realise the significance of this Unique pair of word "Hari.Hari"_
> 
> _Prakash.S.Bagga_



What do you wish to say - in English please. Of course, you are at the liberty to say what you wish to, in many different ways. But please do attempt to do so in simpler language. 

What do you mean when you say Naamu is not Name. 
Don't feel shy to elaborate.


----------



## Ambarsaria

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

Passingby ji my understanding of the sabad,

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
Āsā mėhlā 5. 
ਆਸਾ ਪੰਜਵੀਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ। 
_Raag Assa Guru Arjan Dev ji_

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ ਇਹ ਮਾਲਾ ॥ ਜਪਤ ਜਪਤ ਭਏ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥੧॥ 
Har har akẖar ḏu▫e ih mālā. Japaṯ japaṯ bẖa▫e ḏīn ḏa▫i▫ālā. ||1|| 
_The rosary is of the creator’s praise.  The benevolent creator blesses the poor who so contemplate._

ਕਰਉ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਪੁਨੀ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਦੇਹੁ ਹਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
Kara▫o benṯī saṯgur apunī. Kar kirpā rākẖo sarṇā▫ī mo ka▫o ḏeh hare har japnī. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
_I offer my request to my eternal creator.  Through benevolence please give me haven and enable me to sing the praise of the creator._

ਹਰਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਉਰ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਧਾਰੈ ॥ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਕਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ॥੨॥ 
Har mālā ur anṯar ḏẖārai. Janam maraṇ kā ḏūkẖ nivārai. ||2|| 
_One who keeps the rosary of creator’s praise in the heart.  Finds salvation from pain of life and death._

ਹਿਰਦੈ ਸਮਾਲੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਬੋਲੈ ॥ ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਇਤ ਉਤ ਕਤਹਿ ਨ ਡੋਲੈ ॥੩॥ 
Hirḏai samālai mukẖ har har bolai. So jan iṯ uṯ kaṯėh na dolai. ||3|| 
_Keeping in the heart and speaking of the creator’s praise_
_Such humble one does not ever waiver._

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੋ ਰਾਚੈ ਨਾਇ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੯॥੭੦॥ 
Kaho Nānak jo rācẖai nā▫e. Har mālā ṯā kai sang jā▫e. ||4||19||70|| 

_Nanak says, one imbued in creator’s understanding.  Rosary of creator’s praises accompanies one such._


> *ESSENCE:  *Guru ji say real rosary is made of creator’s praises and is a source of creator’s blessing.Guru ji so request the capability to carry on the contemplation with such a rosary.  When such a rosary resides in the heart one says praises of the creator and does not waiver.
> 
> Guru ji state that this is the rosary that is real and accompanies you everywhere and at all times.









Above example of a Christian Rosary with a Cross.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Luckysingh

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



Astroboy said:


> What do you wish to say - in English please. Of course, you are at the liberty to say what you wish to, in many different ways. But please do attempt to do so in simpler language.
> 
> What do you mean when you say Naamu is not Name.
> Don't feel shy to elaborate.


 
Naam is such a huge and wide suggestion or word that is not easy to define in a few sentences. It is itself a HUGE concept.
Just as the Guru Granth Sahib Ji starts with 'ek onkaar' and then goes on to explain this, so to say. We can't go on to explain in simple words what 'naam' is.
I think it's about understanding 'naam' rather than trying to know or define it.


----------



## Luckysingh

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

From Ambarsaria's above post

*ESSENCE: *Guru ji say real rosary is made of creator’s praises and is a source of creator’s blessing.Guru ji so request the capability to carry on the contemplation with such a rosary. When such a rosary resides in the heart one says praises of the creator and does not waiver. 

Guru ji state that this is the rosary that is real and accompanies you everywhere and at all times.




I think the essence sums it up quite nicely.
-'the Mala within'


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



Astroboy said:


> There are a few issues to be addressed here.
> 
> First issue -
> Elsewhere, especially verses of the 4th Guru mention Har Har many times over. So it may seem that Har Har chanting is more important than Vaheguru chanting. Because more is mentioned about Har Har than Vaheguru Vaheguru.
> 
> The second issue -
> Gurbani does not stress on words like Har Har (like a power mantra of some sort) because there are so many other names of God prescribed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
> 
> Third Issue -
> The 5th Guru said 'Satnam' tera para purbala...
> So does that mean we should give more importance to Satnam than any other word?
> 
> I don't think words come before the experience, so to speak. Guru's wrote gurbani thru direct experiences. The written word is an attempt to express the real experience. The written word is a motivation for us to work thru towards spiritual experiences.
> 
> Anybody with spiritual experiences who want to share?



Jios,

1. Gurbanee is personal experience of the Creator - each writer expresses this in his own way - multiple ways and multiple authors ...means we can pick and choose ....BUT the Ultimate Bottom Line is the SAME and in line with what Guru Nannak ji sahib showed. There is no deviation form that.

2. After we understand the above, we are encouraged to..be so immersed in Gurbanee that we BECOME GURBANNEE....this is the ultimate peak of exhilaration

3. Examples in Gurbanee..Guru Arjun Ji says..while Japping Ram Ram Ram...i became so immersed  in Ram that  ordinary people also noticed a change and  began calling ME - *RAMDASS*.....the Servant of Ram !!. This SHABAD alone serves to DISPELL clearly and unequivocally the notion some misguided ones have about the Shaabd *Raamdaass* *sarovar* nahteh..as a pointer to GURU RAMDASS jis built sarovar of WATER in Amrtisar !! and having a physical cleansing session in that water as being encouraged. The "RAMDASS" in the Shabad is a PLURAL for SANGAT and NOT a Singular proper Noun for the Fourth GURU. Guru Arjun Ji is the SON of Guru Ramdass Ji and its impossible for him to be "Ramdass" as well ( in name) BUT BOTH are "Ramdass"..servants of RAM the CREATOR just as much as any of us can be.

4. Ambarsraiah ji is right about the words and multiple meanings..thats why CONTEXT is Vital. One "meaning" cannot be applied everywhere. In a deeply spiritual "meaning" sort of way..Har as in Green tree and Har as in everyone..etc etc "CAN" be taken to be Har the Creator becasue ultimatley HE is in the Green tree..( He causes it to be Green haria hoyah )..He is in "everyone" as well and thats precisely why Guur Arjun ji declares None is my enemy..none a stranger..all are my brothers ( even Jehangir the Emperor who gave the order to roast Guru Arjun Ji alive and boil him alive as well - Guru Arjun ji declares..Dosh na kahoon devohn..i dont blame anyone for my "troubles" but only Beg for YOUR Bhanna to be endured with Love and sweetness..) So in a PRACTICAL WAY Guru Arjun ji has showed us all that HAR is Jehangir, Har is the Fire under the hot plate, Har is the hot water, Har is Chandu, Har is Mian Mir....HAR HAR HAR...there is no "difference" except in OUR EYES and Beleifs !! UNTIL we Come to that STAGE in which GURU ARJUN JI is...we will continue to see differently...and thats what is meant by *BECOMING GURBANEE *because....
Bani GURU...GURU Hai BANI...vich Bani amrit sareh....is the PRACTICAL WAY to reach that ultimate peak...wherein OUR Physical body becomes hte RECEPTACLE of ALL AMRIT !!..as shown by all our MARTYRS like Bhai mani Singh, Bhai deep Singh, Bhai banda singh bahadur etc etc...


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



Astroboy said:


> What do you wish to say - in English please. Of course, you are at the liberty to say what you wish to, in many different ways. But please do attempt to do so in simpler language.
> 
> What do you mean when you say Naamu is not Name.
> Don't feel shy to elaborate.


 
You can see for yourself that the proper word for NAME in Gurbanee is NAAu not NAAMu.
You may pl let me what do you mean by simpler language I would consider that too.
Why I should shy when I feel GuRu is always with me.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



Luckysingh said:


> Naam is such a huge and wide suggestion or word that is not easy to define in a few sentences. It is itself a HUGE concept.
> Just as the Guru Granth Sahib Ji starts with 'ek onkaar' and then goes on to explain this, so to say. We can't go on to explain in simple words what 'naam' is.
> I think it's about understanding 'naam' rather than trying to know or define it.


 
I would certainly agree to the last kine of your message.
Would you please make me clear how understanding is different from knowing and defining.?
My understanding is otherwise I think you can understand what you know and define.How one can understand anything which can not be known and defined.?

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Harry Haller

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



Luckysingh said:


> Naam is such a huge and wide suggestion or word that is not easy to define in a few sentences. It is itself a HUGE concept.
> Just as the Guru Granth Sahib Ji starts with 'ek onkaar' and then goes on to explain this, so to say. We can't go on to explain in simple words what 'naam' is.
> I think it's about understanding 'naam' rather than trying to know or define it.



one could even say it is about experiencing Naam, living Naam, the ultimate in consonance and connection


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

It is astonishing to see that persons can understand,experience and live in consonance with something  unkown.Such persons are really great and blessed.

Prakash.s.bagga


----------



## Archived_member15

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> It is astonishing to see that persons can understand,experience and live in consonance with something unkown.Such persons are really great and blessed.
> 
> Prakash.s.bagga


 

_"...I was left there so absorbed,_
_so entranced, and so removed,_
_that my senses were abroad,_
_robbed of all sensation proved,_
_and my spirit then was moved_
_with an unknown knowing,_
_all knowledge there transcending..." _


_*- Saint John of the Cross (1542 – 1591), *_
_*Verses on the Ecstasy of Deep Contemplation, *_
_*Catholic mystic and Doctor of the Church *_


_For me this is the best description of what you describe as, "understand,experience and live in consonance with something unkown". All of the saints and mystics of the world religions have experienced this but there is something about Saint John of the Cross' articulation of it that makes it so very meaningful to me. _


----------



## Ambarsaria

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for your post but one comment.





prakash.s.bagga said:


> It is astonishing to see that persons can understand,experience and live in consonance with something  unkown.Such persons are really great and blessed.  Prakash.s.bagga


_Guru ji and all in SGGS repeatedly tell us in the simplest and most straightforward way that one creator is infinite.  The virtues and attributes are infinite.  So don't set an objective to either want to know all or __try to know all or try to describe all.  You can always live in consonance with what you know at any point in time.  The objective set in the SGGS is to try to recognize more (not all), and thus continuously live better and in better understanding of the creator and better consonance with creation._

_If one gets nothing else from SGGS, that is the message and understanding to take away._

I hope this simple message you have absorbed.  I hope knowing and understanding all is not your thrust and that is not why you keep showing astonishment like in the post above.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

AMBARSARIA Ji,
You have totally miscontrued my message.
I am greatly impressed by the wordings of the message of Mr VOUTHON as

"My spirit then was moved with an unknown knowing,"

This very cleary tells that ...Having known the unknown ...my spirit then was moved.
Obviously Knowing is forst and prime condition for understanding,experiencing and being in consonance with the known. 
My understanding goes like as given.I think My VOUTHON would be able to throw some more light in such understanding.
Prakash.s.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> You have totally miscontrued my message.
> I am greatly impressed by the wordings of the message of Mr VOUTHON as
> 
> "My spirit then was moved with an unknown knowing,"
> 
> This very cleary tells that ...Having known the unknown ...my spirit then was moved.
> Obviously Knowing is forst and prime condition for understanding,experiencing and being in consonance with the known.
> My understanding goes like as given.I think My VOUTHON would be able to throw some more light in such understanding.
> Prakash.s.Bagga


_Prakash.S.Bagga ji my message is quite generic.  Sorry it happens to come out as reference to what you wrote.

It referes to the pursuit of knowing all and some actually giving you a potion, a book, a rosary, a "Naam", a "WORD", etc., as a way to get it all as they walk to the Bank or turn you into a slave, disciple or follower.

So in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and in our Guru ji's teachings there is great direction so that we may neither seek nor be so mislead or lied to or be taken in.

_Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

We should always try to know and stick to the great direction What GuRu ji is giving us.
Are we really doing that.?
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Luckysingh

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> I would certainly agree to the last kine of your message.
> Would you please make me clear how understanding is different from knowing and defining.?
> My understanding is otherwise I think you can understand what you know and define.How one can understand anything which can not be known and defined.?
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


 
Prakashji, 
Understanding is different from knowing, this is confusing you maybe, but it's not too difficult, I think.

Understanding the lord's creation is a reason why we are on this forum.
We understand that there is a One Almighty. But we don't know him or it, we know of this creator. Do you follow this ?
In the same way, we understand Guru Nanak's message and teachings, or we try to understand. BUT, we don't know him, we don't liase with him. We could never know what his actions or next steps would be even if we were in that time era, could we.
His teachings, his work, is what is important and ALL we need to know. Knowing him or knowing which side of the bed he gets out is not important and we would never know.. 
 Do you understand what I mean ?
In the same way this is what I was saying about 'naam'
It's the understanding that is important, not the chasing to know exactly what it is. It's a huge concept, like I said.

I think may be you get confused with this grammar and vocab as you seem to try and define and 'know' the WORD. 
When, I think, all we need is to UNDERSTAND not 'KNOW' of it as such.
This is just my view of where I think your approach sometimes may seem unnecessary to others as they may feel that they 'understand' without applying your theoritical approach.This is how I have said earlier that I feel.. I get the same message and essence from bani wether I use your approach or not, maybe it's just me!!!
**This is just my personal opinion, bhul chuk marf***

Waheguru
Lucky Singh


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*

LUCKY SINGH Ji,
I agree with your the concept of understanding and knowing.We may understand but we may not be knowing as with the teachings of GuRu Nanak ji as example.
The above concept is applicable when we take into consideration Guru Nanak in physical Form and his teachings as different.
But in context of Gurbanee the situation is entirely different, here one can know Guru Nanak as well as teachings of Nanak.
This is smething different from what we generally think.?
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> The word Hari.Hari" has been used by every Guru and Every Bhgat and even by Bhats in their contribution of Banee.
> In the very first Raagu M 1 we can see this word as
> ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਹੁ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਲੇ ਹਰਿ ਬੋਲਿ ॥ ਮਨੁ ਸਚ ਕਸਵਟੀ ਲਾਈਐ ਤੁਲੀਐ ਪੂਰੈ ਤੋਲਿ ॥ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਰਿਦ ਮਾਣਕ ਮੋਲਿ ਅਮੋਲਿ ॥੧॥ ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਹੀਰਾ ਗੁਰ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਲਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> 
> _It is true that this word "Hari.Hari" is profusely used by 4th Nanak._
> 
> *We should look for a reasonable reason for this. isnt that necessary?*
> 
> _Unless we are able to understand that NAME is not NAAMu.It is rather impossible to realise the significance of this Unique pair of word "Hari.Hari"_
> 
> _Prakash.S.Bagga_



Prakash Ji,

Let me then start the ball rolling by asking for the meaning of Har Har Simrou Sant Gopala: SGGS Page 617 Line 13
It seems that Har Har is not used for rhyming the shabads as clearly seen in this particular verse. So its uniqueness has to have a deeper meaning or purpose. What could that be?


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



Astroboy said:


> Prakash Ji,
> 
> Let me then start the ball rolling by asking for the meaning of Har Har Simrou Sant Gopala: Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Page 617 Line 13
> It seems that Har Har is not used for rhyming the shabads as clearly seen in this particular verse. So its uniqueness has to have a deeper meaning or purpose. What could that be?


 
I think you can understand this from a Quote as
"HARi.HARi Tera Naamu Hai Dukh Metanhara"......Raagu Tilung.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> I think you can understand this from a Quote as
> "HARi.HARi Tera Naamu Hai Dukh Metanhara"......Raagu Tilung.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga



So how does this apply to your earlier mention that Name is not Naamu? Could it be that Har Har is more than a word whose origin is embossed into a metaphysical nature? And that Har Har is the outer symbolic word of deeper spiritual origin? If you believe it to be so, then maybe you could have the experience like....GOONGE KI MITHIYAI.....


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

*Re: Meaning of this Shabad please*



Astroboy said:


> So how does this apply to your earlier mention that Name is not Naamu? Could it be that Har Har is more than a word whose origin is embossed into a metaphysical nature? And that Har Har is the outer symbolic word of deeper spiritual origin? If you believe it to be so, then maybe you could have the experience like....GOONGE KI MITHIYAI.....


 
You are very close to my understanding.
From Gurbanee I understand that the word <Hari.Hari> is the only word which is NAME as well as NAAMu. 
So it is important to understand the difference between Name and Naamu.
Naamu is different from Name
One may surprise How this word <Hari.HARi> is NAME as well as Naamu.
why not other words .This can be known only by getting the understanding as in what way NAMe is different from Naamu.

Prakash.s.Bagga


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

ASTROBOY Ji,
From Gurbanee we can at least know what the MITHAEE is ? Certainly no one can tell the TASTE of this MITHAEE.that is for idividual to experience and smile like GOONGA smiles after consuming the MITHAEE.
But we always seem to be trying for the TASTE rather than to know the MITHAEE 
that is why we keep moving in circles of different understandings.

Prakash.s.Bagga


----------



## Astroboy

> But we always seem to be trying for the TASTE rather than to know the MITHAEE
> that is why we keep moving in circles of different understandings.
> 
> Prakash.s.Bagga



Could you provide an analogy on your above statement because I don't quite understand.


----------



## passingby

Prakash ji,

Please explain your point already, ...please! I have been reading your posts and expecting that soon you will explain the points you are referring to, such difference between Naamu and Name. 
I request you to please don't make the readers go guessing, and waiting. It would be so great if you explain the point on hand in one plain, expository post.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Astroboy said:


> Could you provide an analogy on your above statement because I don't quite understand.


 
My point is related to what GuRu ji is telling us to search. We are not recognising that.
Prakash.s.Bagga


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

passingby said:


> Prakash ji,
> 
> Please explain your point already, ...please! I have been reading your posts and expecting that soon you will explain the points you are referring to, such difference between Naamu and Name.
> I request you to please don't make the readers go guessing, and waiting. It would be so great if you explain the point on hand in one plain, expository post.


 
I appreciate your concern .In fact this difference is fundamentallly related with the grammar of Gurbanee words.
I have always been posing the three forms of words as GuRoo-GuRu and GuR.
You should sincerely try to understand the Basic grammar of these three words .This also is posted in detail in the Gurbanee Grammar thread and even in several other threads.
Once you understand this you are definitely going to get the difference between NAME and NAAMu.
As a hint you should understand that NAME is always Singular and Single Number whereas NAAMu is also SINGULAR but for a pair of two NOUN words.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Taranjeet singh

Passingby ji,

I share with you in brief that I understand of naam. Post is only exploratory and not comprehensive in any manner.

In Gurbani we have reference to Naam ,Nao and Name of Lord./Creator. Sometimes, these are used, by translators as synonyms only. However, there is tangible difference between Naam and Name. I have intentionally omitted Nao as it is a variant of Naam/Name. 

Name would imply the name of the Lord as is conventionally understood. Guru Granth sahib employs many names of creator including Ram, hari, Mukund, krishna etc.

To understand the exact meaning one shall have to refer carefully to various tuks of bani.Let us start with Jap ji sahib that is the opening verse of Dhan Sri Guru Granth sahib.

In Jap ji sahib we have reference to ‘Nao’and ‘Naam’.There are few attributes of the same given in Jap ji sahib e.g. He is true and so is his name[Nao] and it should be uttered with great love and reverence.[Jap ji-2-3] The entire universe and creation is manifestation of His Nao[Jeta keeta teta nao.Jap ji,4-9] Nao is all pervasive.[Jap Ji 4-10]He is greatest of all and so is his nao.[Jap ji ,5-1] In fact Nao is greater than him as well. Only one who has reached a certain stage can know him. In fact he has to be as great as He himself is. In slok at the conclusion of Jap ji sahib we get the word Naam.i.e Jini Naam dhiyaya Gaye Mashkat Ghal, Nanak de mukh ujle ket chutti Naal

Translators have translated Nao as Name.Let us see the meaning of Nao

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
(1) ਨਾਮ। (2) ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰਨਾ, ਨਹਾਉਣਾ। (3) ਵਡਿਆਈ, ਸ਼ੋਭਾ, ਨਾਂ। (4) (ਨਾਂ) (ਨੳਮੲ)। (5) ਨਿਆਂ, ਨਿਆਉ ਦਾ ਸੰਖੇਪ, (ਭਾਵ) ਨਿਰਣਾ, ਫੈਸਲਾ। (6) ਕਿਸ਼ਤੀ, ਬੇੜੀ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਊਚੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਊਚਾ ਨਾਉ॥ {ਜਪੁ ੧, ੨੪:੧੨ (5)}। ਅਜਹੁ ਸੁ ਨਾਉ ਸਮੁੰਦ੍ਰ ਮਹਿ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਨਉ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਇ॥ {ਸਲੋ ਕਬ, ੩੯:੨ (1366)}। ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਤ



Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia
ਫ. "ਨਾਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਦਰ ਕਰੈ". (ਵਾਰ ਰਾਮ ੩).ਸੰ. ਨੌਕਾ. ਨਾਵ. ਕਿਸ਼ਤੀ. "ਭਵਜਲ ਬਿਖਮ ਡਰਾਉ, ਗੁਰੁ ਤਾਰੇ ਹਰਿਨਾਉ". (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੧)। (2) ਨਾਮ. "ਨਾਉ ਸੁਣਿ ਮਨੁ ਰਹਸੀਐ". (ਵਾਰ ਆਸਾ)। (3) ਸਨਾਨ. ਦੇਖੋ, ਨ੍ਹਾਉਣਾ. "ਅੰਤਰਿਗਤਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਮਲਿ ਨਾਉ". (ਜਪੁ)। (4) ਨ੍ਯਾਯ. ਇਨਸਾ 
Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com


http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਾਉ



On the other hand Naam is used in specific sense. Its meaning is:

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
ਪਵਿੱਤਰ ਸ਼ਬਦ (ਸ਼ਬਦਾਰਥ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ। (2) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ, ਹਰੀ। (3) ਨਾਂ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਅੰਧੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਏਹ ਨ ਓਹੁ॥ {ਸਿਰੀ ੧, ੩, ੧*:੨ (15)}। ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ॥ {ਜਪੁ ੧, ੧੨:੫ (3)}। ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹੀਐ ਹਉਮੈ ਨਿਵਰੀ ਭਾਹਿ॥ {ਸਿਰੀ ੧, ੧੭, ੧*:੨ (20)}। ਦੂਖੁ ਸੰਤਾਪੁ ਨ ਲਗਈ ਜਿਸੁ ਹਰ

Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia
ਦੇਖੋ, ਨਾਮ. "ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ". (ਜਪੁ)। (2) ਪ੍ਰਸਿੱਧ, "ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪਿਆ". (ਬਾਵਨ). 
Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਾਮੁ

Thus Nao and Naam are one and same thing. This naam cannot be realized by one self of his own efforts. One has to work as per Gurmat and when the Guru is pleased, one receives the Lord's Naam.[146-1] Guru Nanak dev ji has further shown the significance of Naam,” I am forever a sacrifice to the one who listens and hears, who understands and believes in the Name/Naam.”[152-9] Naam goes along with the mortal till the end[152-10] It is through Naam that we become desireless or get complete control over our desires.[152-16]Those who are committed to the Naam, see the world as transient phenomenon.[153-1] Without the realization of the Naam, the house of the body and the store of the mind are empty.[153-1] Naam is also stated to be Nectar.[153-6]Naam is obtained only when there is heart felt love for Lord.[158-19]

With the small introduction it would be clear the nao and naam are synonym and when Akal is pleased with the devotee he is blessed with naam and Guru sahibaan are divine intermediaries who give naam to the seeker. The Naam, the Name of the Lord, is collected in the vessel of the mind. Nothing is collected if the vessel is upside-down. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Naam abides within the mind.[158-14,15]

Naam is the essence of Sikhism. Sikhi is also, therefore , called as Nam Marg. There are various attributes of Naam. Naam is also mentioned as 'vakhar' and 'sabad' in Gurbani. It is the only mode of knowing the Creator. We receive it when he casts his Glance of Grace.

Kindly ignore the mistakes.


----------



## Ambarsaria

Taranjeet Singh ji thanks for your post.

One thing if I may observe is the following.  In common usage when someone mentions someone's/something/etc. name, we immediately get a picture of the aspects we know of,


Where lives/belongs
Where works/what delivers
What does
Who are relations
What is good about ....
What is bad about ....
What I don't know
...............  and so on
So for me at least, the name is just a marker of all the information, understanding, knowledge we have about the referenced object, person, concept, persona, etc.

Can we have a name reference when we don't fully understand?  Of course we can.  Does the name change when we know more?  No it is the same.  So Waheguru, creator, etc., they don't change, our understanding and knowledge increase.  Is there a magic moment when we reach a level of critical and as much as possible knowing state of Waheguru?  There probably is and it for sure requires Guru's grace or Gurparsad as referenced in SGGS.

Just some thoughts,

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

TARANJAEET SINGH Ji,
With all respectful consideration to your views mentioned in your post I can only say the considerations are non grammatical therefore it is not possible to get the understanding of the meanings of the word NAAu (it is not NAO) and the word NAAMu.

In Gurbanee we have only three references as NAAu,NAAMu and NAAMA.
An interesting observation in Gurbani is that you would come across as HARi NAAMu,RAM NAAMu and HARi NAAu you will not find the reference as RAM NAAu anywhere in SGGS ji. Why snce you analyse this you are going to get the understanding of the difference between NAAu and NAAMu

Further we can see that how grammatically NAAu and NAAMu are different.

NAAu is SINGULAR and its PLURAL is NAAV
NAAMu is SINGULAR and its PLURAL is NAAM

The word NAAU is for place ,person or thing as SINGLE whereas NAAMu is the reference for GuR JoTi/PRABHu JOTi only. e.g The word RAM as Singular can be used to refer any person whereas NAAMu for the word RAM is <RAM.RAM>.
You can make an observation that NAAMu is always a pair of two NOUN words  whereas NOUN is always a Single word.

You can find in Gurbannee there can be as many NAAM u as NAAu words.Thus every NAAu word has its respective NAAMu 

Prakash.s.Bagga


----------



## BhagatSingh

Now...

The Name is strange thing as you could add or subtract from the the actual thing and still have the same name. For example, I would still be Bhagat whether I lived here or in India, whether I painted or not, etc. I could grow in size, lose a limb or two, cut my hair, put on a larger turban, change my clothes, my skin colour, get a metal heart, different personality, etc and still be Bhagat. I could in fact die! and still be called Bhagat. So Name is the constant in the change. It is the constant of the changing form. 

Ram is the constant of the world. Whereas the world is constantly changing, Ram is the eternal unchanging. Hence why the name of the eternal unchanging, Ram, is to be contemplated.

Now in fact, the changing world (whose constant is Ram) is unimportant. The Truth which was True in all ages, the name Ram, is of utmost importance to a Sikh.  What the name represents is illusory, only the Name is true. One wonders, "Bhagat isn't that shallow? Don't the qualities, the attributes, of the Name make the Name what it is? How can they be illusory while the Name is real?"

The painter is known by the painting but once you know the painter's painting, and you come to know that the painter. Then the painting does not matter as much. You are more interested in what the painter is up to rather than any particular painting. It is all about the painter. Sure the attributes, behind the Name, make up the Name. But once you know the Name, the attributes do not matter. Then it becomes all about the Name.

Another example is a brand name X. You know a certain brand is going to provide you with quality shoes. But once you experience that the quality shoes came from that brand Name, once you go out looking for high-quality shoes and found that X makes good shoes. Next time you go looking for shoes, you simply go look for X.

Now it's actually more accurate to say that the painter and painting merge together. The quality shoes and brand name are one. Recognized through recognizing the painter and brand name.

This makes way for the repetitive uttering of "Ram, Ram" that some people dislike. The scriptures say do simran of "Ram", think about "Ram", meditate on "Ram". Yes, it is the name you are focusing simraning, contemplating and meditating on. This is done to get the mind's attention to the unchanging. Only in a constant repetition can a constant be recognized.

Now a rosary simply helps to keep the attention on the exercise. It also keeps the hands busy. Our hands always want to do things or to touch things, they are full of energy and vitality. So to create a comfortable flow of energy a rosary helps. If no rosary is available it helps to get the thumb and the fingers in touch for better flow of energy. See for yourself. Feel the energy and vitality in your hand while you perform various tasks. You'll see the difference early on.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

The answers to all questions about NAAu and NAAMu lies in knowing what is RAM NAAMu according to Gurbanee.
One can see that RAM NAAMu accordingto Gurbanee is HARi HARi> .... Not RAM.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Taranjeet singh said:


> Passingby ji,
> 
> I share with you in brief that I understand of naam. Post is only exploratory and not comprehensive in any manner.
> 
> In Gurbani we have reference to Naam ,Nao and Name of Lord./Creator. Sometimes, these are used, by translators as synonyms only. However, there is tangible difference between Naam and Name. I have intentionally omitted Nao as it is a variant of Naam/Name.
> 
> Name would imply the name of the Lord as is conventionally understood. Guru Granth sahib employs many names of creator including Ram, hari, Mukund, krishna etc.
> 
> To understand the exact meaning one shall have to refer carefully to various tuks of bani.Let us start with Jap ji sahib that is the opening verse of Dhan Sri Guru Granth sahib.
> 
> In Jap ji sahib we have reference to ‘Nao’and ‘Naam’.There are few attributes of the same given in Jap ji sahib e.g. He is true and so is his name[Nao] and it should be uttered with great love and reverence.[Jap ji-2-3] The entire universe and creation is manifestation of His Nao[Jeta keeta teta nao.Jap ji,4-9] Nao is all pervasive.[Jap Ji 4-10]He is greatest of all and so is his nao.[Jap ji ,5-1] In fact Nao is greater than him as well. Only one who has reached a certain stage can know him. In fact he has to be as great as He himself is. In slok at the conclusion of Jap ji sahib we get the word Naam.i.e Jini Naam dhiyaya Gaye Mashkat Ghal, Nanak de mukh ujle ket chutti Naal
> 
> Translators have translated Nao as Name.Let us see the meaning of Nao
> 
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
> (1) ਨਾਮ। (2) ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰਨਾ, ਨਹਾਉਣਾ। (3) ਵਡਿਆਈ, ਸ਼ੋਭਾ, ਨਾਂ। (4) (ਨਾਂ) (ਨੳਮੲ)। (5) ਨਿਆਂ, ਨਿਆਉ ਦਾ ਸੰਖੇਪ, (ਭਾਵ) ਨਿਰਣਾ, ਫੈਸਲਾ। (6) ਕਿਸ਼ਤੀ, ਬੇੜੀ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਊਚੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਊਚਾ ਨਾਉ॥ {ਜਪੁ ੧, ੨੪:੧੨ (5)}। ਅਜਹੁ ਸੁ ਨਾਉ ਸਮੁੰਦ੍ਰ ਮਹਿ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਨਉ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਇ॥ {ਸਲੋ ਕਬ, ੩੯:੨ (1366)}। ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਤ
> 
> 
> 
> Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia
> ਫ. "ਨਾਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਦਰ ਕਰੈ". (ਵਾਰ ਰਾਮ ੩).ਸੰ. ਨੌਕਾ. ਨਾਵ. ਕਿਸ਼ਤੀ. "ਭਵਜਲ ਬਿਖਮ ਡਰਾਉ, ਗੁਰੁ ਤਾਰੇ ਹਰਿਨਾਉ". (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੧)। (2) ਨਾਮ. "ਨਾਉ ਸੁਣਿ ਮਨੁ ਰਹਸੀਐ". (ਵਾਰ ਆਸਾ)। (3) ਸਨਾਨ. ਦੇਖੋ, ਨ੍ਹਾਉਣਾ. "ਅੰਤਰਿਗਤਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਮਲਿ ਨਾਉ". (ਜਪੁ)। (4) ਨ੍ਯਾਯ. ਇਨਸਾ
> Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com
> 
> 
> http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਾਉ
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand Naam is used in specific sense. Its meaning is:
> 
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary
> ਪਵਿੱਤਰ ਸ਼ਬਦ (ਸ਼ਬਦਾਰਥ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ। (2) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ, ਹਰੀ। (3) ਨਾਂ। ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਅੰਧੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਏਹ ਨ ਓਹੁ॥ {ਸਿਰੀ ੧, ੩, ੧*:੨ (15)}। ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ॥ {ਜਪੁ ੧, ੧੨:੫ (3)}। ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹੀਐ ਹਉਮੈ ਨਿਵਰੀ ਭਾਹਿ॥ {ਸਿਰੀ ੧, ੧੭, ੧*:੨ (20)}। ਦੂਖੁ ਸੰਤਾਪੁ ਨ ਲਗਈ ਜਿਸੁ ਹਰ
> 
> Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia
> ਦੇਖੋ, ਨਾਮ. "ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ". (ਜਪੁ)। (2) ਪ੍ਰਸਿੱਧ, "ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪਿਆ". (ਬਾਵਨ).
> Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com
> 
> http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਾਮੁ
> 
> Thus Nao and Naam are one and same thing. This naam cannot be realized by one self of his own efforts. One has to work as per Gurmat and when the Guru is pleased, one receives the Lord's Naam.[146-1] Guru Nanak dev ji has further shown the significance of Naam,” I am forever a sacrifice to the one who listens and hears, who understands and believes in the Name/Naam.”[152-9] Naam goes along with the mortal till the end[152-10] It is through Naam that we become desireless or get complete control over our desires.[152-16]Those who are committed to the Naam, see the world as transient phenomenon.[153-1] Without the realization of the Naam, the house of the body and the store of the mind are empty.[153-1] Naam is also stated to be Nectar.[153-6]Naam is obtained only when there is heart felt love for Lord.[158-19]
> 
> With the small introduction it would be clear the nao and naam are synonym and when Akal is pleased with the devotee he is blessed with naam and Guru sahibaan are divine intermediaries who give naam to the seeker. The Naam, the Name of the Lord, is collected in the vessel of the mind. Nothing is collected if the vessel is upside-down. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Naam abides within the mind.[158-14,15]
> 
> Naam is the essence of Sikhism. Sikhi is also, therefore , called as Nam Marg. There are various attributes of Naam. Naam is also mentioned as 'vakhar' and 'sabad' in Gurbani. It is the only mode of knowing the Creator. We receive it when he casts his Glance of Grace.
> 
> Kindly ignore the mistakes.


 
Our Gurbanee dictionaries or even Mahan Kosh does not give any information about the grammar of the words.
Out of so many reference meanings what is correct for Gurbanee interpretation how you are going to decide.
This the you are going to make use of wide choice whereas Gurbanee requires specific meaning for specific word as per context of its application.
I have personally gone thru many tikkas and many dictionaries the problem is same.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Our Gurbanee dictionaries or even Mahan Kosh does not give any information about the grammar of the words.
> Out of so many reference meanings what is correct for Gurbanee interpretation how you are going to decide.
> This the you are going to make use of wide choice whereas Gurbanee requires specific meaning for specific word as per context of its application.
> I have personally gone thru many tikkas and many dictionaries the problem is same.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


_Prakash.S.Bagga ji I regretfully disagree with your approach to always complicate things beyond recognition and necessity.  All your specifics or Hari as exclusive to the use of the following are basically your own manipulation.  The following and these words don't need your Ram, Hari, etc., to be given meaning,

_

_* ਨਾਮੁ *__(nām-eu)_


_*ਨਾਮ *(nām)_ 


_*ਨਾਉ*_ _(nā▫o)_
_These are used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and of course the context determines their application.  Your deductions and generalizations are basically false and misrepresentations.

All your emphasis and mis-guidance to restrict these to HAR, HARi, RAAM, etc., is distortions to drive towards Hinduvta linkages and meanings.  Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji uses understood meanings of deities as metaphors and you insist on trying to make them something else.  I find it distasteful.  Taranjeet Singh ji wrote pretty accurate and clearly.

I do know that none of dictionaries, books or others exist to totally suit your purpose as you have berated Mahan Kosh, Prof. Sahib Singh ji and started banding about Talwara ji's work. I am sure once someone uses Talwara ji's work you will find something else to criticize.  

Remember Guru ji did not prescribe any such books for understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so you are no one to do so.  There are aids, cheat sheets, general rules, but these are not of necessity only of need to those who do choose.  That is totally your issue so please stop from confusing and making such as issues for others.

You are manufacturing issues where there are none.

_Sat Sri Akal._
_


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Ambarsaria said:


> _Prakash.S.Bagga ji I regretfully disagree with your approach to always complicate things beyond recognition and necessity. All your specifics or Hari as exclusive to the use of the following are basically your own manipulation. The following and these words don't need your Ram, Hari, etc., to be given meaning,_
> 
> 
> 
> _*ਨਾਮੁ *__(nām-eu)_
> 
> _*ਨਾਮ *(nām)_
> 
> _*ਨਾਉ*_ _(nā▫o)_
> _These are used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and of course the context determines their application. Your deductions and generalizations are basically false and misrepresentations._
> 
> _All your emphasis and mis-guidance to restrict these to HAR, HARi, RAAM, etc., is distortions to drive towards Hinduvta linkages and meanings. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji uses understood meanings of deities as metaphors and you insist on trying to make them something else. I find it distasteful. Taranjeet Singh ji wrote pretty accurate and clearly._
> 
> _I do know that none of dictionaries, books or others exist to totally suit your purpose as you have berated Mahan Kosh, Prof. Sahib Singh ji and started banding about Talwara ji's work. I am sure once someone uses Talwara ji's work you will find something else to criticize. _
> 
> _Remember Guru ji did not prescribe any such books for understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so you are no one to do so. There are aids, cheat sheets, general rules, but these are not of necessity only of need to those who do choose. That is totally your issue so please stop from confusing and making such as issues for others._
> 
> _You are manufacturing issues where there are none._
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
Your disagreement is not going to change the very facts of Gurbanee.
You may like it or not
It seems that some clear observations of Gurbanee are difficult to understand and digest.This is the basic problem.
It is surprising we are getting uncomfortable with correct application of grammatical indications given by our GuRu ji in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Here is a Quote for your consideration
(SATiGuRu Dataa RAM NAAMu KA  Horu Data Koee Nahee pp1258-1259 sggs

So first recognise SatiGuRu in Gurbanee then only you can get What is RAM NAAMu.

Many Many thanks for disagreeing and for your valuable suggestions.

Prakash.s.Bagga


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Ambarsaria said:


> _Prakash.S.Bagga ji I regretfully disagree with your approach to always complicate things beyond recognition and necessity. All your specifics or Hari as exclusive to the use of the following are basically your own manipulation. The following and these words don't need your Ram, Hari, etc., to be given meaning,_
> 
> 
> 
> _*ਨਾਮੁ *__(nām-eu)_
> 
> _*ਨਾਮ *(nām)_
> 
> _*ਨਾਉ*_ _(nā▫o)_
> _These are used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and of course the context determines their application. Your deductions and generalizations are basically false and misrepresentations._
> 
> _All your emphasis and mis-guidance to restrict these to HAR, HARi, RAAM, etc., is distortions to drive towards Hinduvta linkages and meanings. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji uses understood meanings of deities as metaphors and you insist on trying to make them something else. I find it distasteful. Taranjeet Singh ji wrote pretty accurate and clearly._
> 
> _I do know that none of dictionaries, books or others exist to totally suit your purpose as you have berated Mahan Kosh, Prof. Sahib Singh ji and started banding about Talwara ji's work. I am sure once someone uses Talwara ji's work you will find something else to criticize. _
> 
> _Remember Guru ji did not prescribe any such books for understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so you are no one to do so. There are aids, cheat sheets, general rules, but these are not of necessity only of need to those who do choose. That is totally your issue so please stop from confusing and making such as issues for others._
> 
> _You are manufacturing issues where there are none._
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
Better you try to understand the meanings of the following words given in Gurbanee as HARiiNAAMu, RAM NAAMu and HARi RAM NAAMu.
You can not close your eyes from the words of Gurbanee.I think since your mind is always preoccupied with  phobia of Hindi=uism you are unable to recognise and accept what actually GuRu ji is saying.

This is what I feel from your critic comments .

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Astroboy

prakash.s.bagga said:


> My point is related to what GuRu ji is telling us to search. We are not recognising that.
> Prakash.s.Bagga



We are not recognising that - does that include you yourself or that you already understood and are trying very hard for us Moorakhs to understand. If that's the case, please make us understand it in a child-like manner. In baby steps. We don't quite understand grammar. For us grammar is like an uphill task so please don't put us through it.

Do you find it difficult to explain what Namu is (in words because it is the experiencing of it which creates the understanding).


----------



## Luckysingh

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Our Gurbanee dictionaries or even Mahan Kosh does not give any information about the grammar of the words.
> Out of so many reference meanings what is correct for Gurbanee interpretation how you are going to decide.
> This the you are going to make use of wide choice whereas Gurbanee requires specific meaning for specific word as per context of its application.
> I have personally gone thru many tikkas and many dictionaries the problem is same.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


 
Prakash Ji, 
You seem to be quite persistant that many tikkas and translations have a problem due to this lack of consideration for grammar.

You have caused many of us and myself to start double, triple, quadruple checking our interpretations.
I have to agree with Ambarsaria ji  that you seem to be creating an unnecessary problem for some of us.
I, myself have in the last few weeks started working on my vocab and doing my own translations where I can. 
I have made a few attempts on the Sukhmani sahib thread that Ambarsaria ji kindly compiles for us.
Now, in doing these, along with the tikkas and Prof.Sahib ji's input, we can all deduce our own intepretations. 
I have been using a method not so advanced as my punjabi and gurmukhi is very limited, but my approach has been working word for word and then getting each sentence back together, as this is the way that I learnt french, german and spanish.
Amazingly, I do sometimes get different words as many gurmukhi words have multiple applications in english, but overall, the essence and message is always the SAME. It's just that for me, my way makes it easier for me to perceive the message from a shabad.

Saying all this, I really can't understand why you are being critical for all these scholars that have put in a lot of work in to giving us this gift.
I have not yet come across any message in gurbani by them that is different in any sense.
You seem to keep putting a huge question mark on the gurbani in the sense- is it what it seems??
If it's not what it seems, it is much more than what we may see at first, but it's not in any way something ELSE in disguise, is it ??

I kindly request that you explain to all of us who are at disadvantage here, with some relevent shabads and tikkas, and then give us your valid message that is supposed to be different and more accurate considering the grammar applied.
This is the only way, we can come to some conclusion here.

Please, take your time and give us a few valid examples that you can find. Put us all out of this misery, thanks.

I look forward to your 'valid' reply.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Astroboy said:


> We are not recognising that - does that include you yourself or that you already understood and are trying very hard for us Moorakhs to understand. If that's the case, please make us understand it in a child-like manner. In baby steps. We don't quite understand grammar. For us grammar is like an uphill task so please don't put us through it.
> 
> Do you find it difficult to explain what Namu is (in words because it is the experiencing of it which creates the understanding).


 
I am simply presenting the observstions from Gurbanee.I think you are finding that difficult to understand.It does not require any explanation.

If any one feels that grammar is an uphill task then one should first acquire the understanding of grammar from any available book.
That is the only option.Child requires spoon feeding which is not possible .
You have to learn yourself.
Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## prakash.s.bagga

Luckysingh said:


> Prakash Ji,
> You seem to be quite persistant that many tikkas and translations have a problem due to this lack of consideration for grammar.
> 
> You have caused many of us and myself to start double, triple, quadruple checking our interpretations.
> I have to agree with Ambarsaria ji that you seem to be creating an unnecessary problem for some of us.
> I, myself have in the last few weeks started working on my vocab and doing my own translations where I can.
> I have made a few attempts on the Sukhmani sahib thread that Ambarsaria ji kindly compiles for us.
> Now, in doing these, along with the tikkas and Prof.Sahib ji's input, we can all deduce our own intepretations.
> I have been using a method not so advanced as my punjabi and gurmukhi is very limited, but my approach has been working word for word and then getting each sentence back together, as this is the way that I learnt french, german and spanish.
> Amazingly, I do sometimes get different words as many gurmukhi words have multiple applications in english, but overall, the essence and message is always the SAME. It's just that for me, my way makes it easier for me to perceive the message from a shabad.
> 
> Saying all this, I really can't understand why you are being critical for all these scholars that have put in a lot of work in to giving us this gift.
> I have not yet come across any message in gurbani by them that is different in any sense.
> You seem to keep putting a huge question mark on the gurbani in the sense- is it what it seems??
> If it's not what it seems, it is much more than what we may see at first, but it's not in any way something ELSE in disguise, is it ??
> 
> I kindly request that you explain to all of us who are at disadvantage here, with some relevent shabads and tikkas, and then give us your valid message that is supposed to be different and more accurate considering the grammar applied.
> This is the only way, we can come to some conclusion here.
> 
> Please, take your time and give us a few valid examples that you can find. Put us all out of this misery, thanks.
> 
> I look forward to your 'valid' reply.
> 
> Waheguru
> Lucky Singh


 
You should understand what is RAM NAMMu according to Gurbanee.
I have given you my observation from Gurbanee that RAM NAAmu is not the word RAM.
Now it is for you to get it confirmed yourself fronm SGGS because confirmation from SGGS would me more convincing for you than you would be knowing from any person .
Mine are only observations for ones clarification by oneself.
If you are not familiar with grammar or you dont have will to understand that there is some grammar in Gurbanee that should be known then you should only not put any effortin this direction.
So dont get disturbed from what you feel comfortable.
Henceforth you should not find any of my post related to grammar of Gurbanee .
But I am sure a time will come when people will think about this because 
without application of grammar understanding it is just not possible to understand the true meanings of Gurbanee .I strongly feel so.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Luckysingh

passingby said:


> Dear friends, please share what you understand from this shabad.
> 
> ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
> Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
> ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ ਇਹ ਮਾਲਾ ॥
> These two words, Har, Har, make up my maalaa.
> ਜਪਤ ਜਪਤ ਭਏ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥੧॥
> Continually chanting and reciting this rosary, God has become merciful to me, His humble servant. ||1||
> ਕਰਉ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਪੁਨੀ ॥
> I offer my prayer to the True Guru.
> ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਦੇਹੁ ਹਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> Shower Your Mercy upon me, and keep me safe in Your Sanctuary; please, give me the maalaa, the rosary of Har, Har. ||1||Pause||
> ਹਰਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਉਰ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਧਾਰੈ ॥
> One who enshrines this rosary of the Lord's Name within his heart,
> ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਕਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ॥੨॥
> is freed of the pains of birth and death. ||2||
> ਹਿਰਦੈ ਸਮਾਲੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਬੋਲੈ ॥
> The humble being who contemplates the Lord within his heart, and chants the Lord's Name, Har, Har, with his mouth,
> ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਇਤ ਉਤ ਕਤਹਿ ਨ ਡੋਲੈ ॥੩॥
> never wavers, here or hereafter. ||3||
> ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੋ ਰਾਚੈ ਨਾਇ ॥
> Says Nanak, one who is imbued with the Name,
> ਹਰਿ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੯॥੭੦॥
> goes to the next world with the maalaa of the Lord's Name. ||4||19||70||
> (389, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)


 
This thread was from some months back and we all went in the dircetions of har har and naam.
Getting back to the OP, I can now see this shabad in a much different light.
Maybe that is what shabads are supposed to do, maybe they are to give you some inspiration and knowledge in one period and then a more deeper and profound message in the next period.
Anyhow, it's nice to go back ad re-study shabads that you think you may have conquered previously.

Getting back to the beginning here-

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ ਇਹ ਮਾਲਾ ॥ 


Har har akẖar ḏu▫e ih mālā. 

These two words, Har, Har, make up my maalaa. Continually chanting and reciting this rosary, God has become merciful to me, His humble servant. ||1|| 



ਜਪਤ ਜਪਤ ਭਏ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥੧॥ 

Japaṯ japaṯ bẖa▫e ḏīn ḏa▫i▫ālā. ||1|| 


Now we estabilished that the rosary is the malaa within but the description 'har har' was used for God. Now this is mostly done by 4th Nanak and not 5th as discussed earlier in this thread.
He used it for some other specific reason and not to help any rhyming as can be seen.
In my opinion, the term 'har har' when used is mostly 'har' uttered twice or more, it is hardly ever used just once.

Then the shabad mentions that ' these 2 words or akhar, make up my malaa' The malaa that is to go with you everywhere and forever.

This one line, I now see it as telling me what is 'two' ?
First thing that comes to mind is dualities and day and night etc..etc..
But looking a little deeper and maybe trying to 'feel' this shabad, I now see the 2 words or _2 mentions of har har representing each breath._
One for the breath IN and one for the breath OUT.

With every breath the vibration of har har should resonate.


----------



## BhagatSingh

Lucky Singh ji,
Seeing as "Hari Hari" is only used by Guru Ramdas ji and less frequently by Guru Arjan Dev ji (and rarely by other Gurus and Bhagats), it maybe Guru Ramdas ji's mantra! Maybe every amritvela he used to chant "Hari Hari".
I also think that one Hari would be chanted on inhalation and the other on exhalation. But can't say for sure.


----------



## Ambarsaria

Folks stop for a moment and think.  Too many mountains being created out of mole hills.





BhagatSingh said:


> Lucky Singh ji,
> Seeing as "Hari Hari" is only used by Guru Ramdas ji and less frequently by Guru Arjan Dev ji (and rarely by other Gurus and Bhagats), it maybe Guru Ramdas ji's mantra! Maybe every amritvela he used to chant "Hari Hari".
> I also think that _one Hari would be chanted on inhalation_ and the _other on exhalation_. But can't say for sure.


_Bhagat Singh ji in the other thread you stated who wrote is not important?  Now it appears it is as it suits your answer._

_Trying to understand Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji message I personally believe the following is fundamental,
_

_The Guru ji and others and their upbringing and family lineage_
_The person most addressed to in a given Shabad/stanza_
_The context and metaphorics used and their relationship to the prime addressee
_
_Let us postulate for a moment and travel back into Guru ji's time.  In this shabad/stanza the following appear most addressed,_


_The Hari Hari crowd_
_The Hindus of the times_
 
_The rosary crowd_
_What the common folk would come across in Sadhus/Bhagats/Sants, etc.
_
 
 _So quite simply Guru ji's are addressing the Hindus who are too familiar with "Hari-Hari", a common Bhajan/singing duplet in Hindu worship._

So Guru ji's are teaching such people the right path by simile.  They are not asking the Sikhs of today (Bhagat Singh, Luckysingh ji, Chaz Singh ji, etc.) to start acting in emulating Hari-Hari chants.  Folks don't get caught in the weeds to keep justifying meditation, simran, etc.  Don't lose the context of the times and people addressed.  Treat each shabad/stanza as of the times and visualize its applique.  Then the essence unfolds so easily without any deep scholarly dissecting and without any elitist approaches.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## BhagatSingh

I am wondering whether to respond to you or not since you normally don't respond back. For that you can bet I am angry with you.:angryyoungkaur:
I never said this "_who wrote is not important?"  

_
Ambarsaria ji,
The crowd who is being addressed here is neither the meditators, nor the ones that use malas. It's a crowd filled with people who don't meditate. In many places, Gurus actually encourage Bhajans - singing of kirtan/meditation.

Here's a Bhajan for you. I sing this every day. I love Bhai Harjinder Singh ji's rendition of it. The lyrics are by Guru Ram Das ji.

Har jan bolat sri ram nama, Mil saadh sangat har tor
Hari's followers, speak out the name of Sri Ram (and meditate on it), mingle with a Sadh Sangat and build momentum towards Hari. 

har dhan vanjo har dhan sancho,  Jis lagat hai nahi chor
Invest in only the wealth of meditation on Hari, it cannot be stolen by a thief. 

Chatrik mor bolat din raati,  sun ghanhar ki ghor
The rain-bird and pea{censored} sing day and night, listening to the roaring thunder clouds.

jo bolat hai mrig meen pankheru bin har japat hai nahi hor 
What the animals, birds and fish sing, sing to Hari and no other.

nanak jan har kirat gayi chhoot gayo jam ka sabh sor 
The followers of Nanak sing the praises of Hari, and dispel their fear of death.

I listen to it, sing along, and follow it. I actually have it memorized. One day I ended composing my own personal rendition by accident. I love this bhajan!
Har Jan Bolat Sriram Nama-Bhai Harjinder Singh-Naad - YouTube


----------



## Luckysingh

The rosary or mala was used by many and is still used by many to this day.
It helps one to focus with the aid of doing something physical. It has the action of helping you to continue with some sort of repetitive act, and is simply an aid that helps you to focus and continue with the repetitive act.

In this sense we have to remember that the shabad is in reference to this rosary and it's purpose. However, my understanding is that we do this every second of our life and it happens involuntarily with the help of our lungs.
We breathe in and out continously as part of life and function.

Let's say that the guru is infact addressing a majority hindu crowd with malaas as Ambarsariaji stated above.-Then the guru's message to them is simply that there is no need for a malaa, because when you have to do some other physical function or act, then the mala will simply stop. Most likely then, the chant of har har will also come to a halt.
However, if one does the 'har har' with each and every breath, then this can carry on along with all the other functions that you may perform with your hands, because you will still be taking one breath in and one breath out.

So, I can take this shabad and view it as addressing me personaly and us in this era and I can also see it as addressing the said crowds or people of the guru's time era.

Shabad messages are timeless even if future techno pandits start using some hand held electronic rosary, they will still be breathing in and out and this shabad will still be applicable.


----------



## Ambarsaria

Luckysingh ji thanks for your post.





Luckysingh said:


> However, my understanding is that _we do this every second of our life and it happens involuntarily with the help of our lungs_.  We breathe in and out continously as part of life and function.


_Yes indeed brother Luckysingh ji!  _ _ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ/_"_creator and such a creator" is the recognition.  Beyond breath it is in all senses and all comprehension.  Soon the sound by itself becomes so redundant and miniscule._ _Your heart and your mind so in tune that they listen without saying, you speak without words and then understand without describing.  Hence a glorious moment if only such could become a life time 24/7.

_Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:*  Bhagat Singh veer ji I have no issues with people doing bhajans, etc., just as I previously clarified the same about meditation.  Only reason I comment on these is if it is falsely ascribed to what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches us for salvation and leading a good life or finding God/creator.  As all such has been repeatedly put down in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as there is nothing mechanical about knowing the creator.

The following not Sikhism specific but interesting.  Listen around in the following at 2:20, 3:50, 4:25, 5:09, 6:20 it is the essence of this from Bulley Shah.

sikh chaj koi yaar manavan da 1 - YouTube


----------



## BhagatSingh

> Bhagat Singh veer ji I have no  issues with people doing bhajans, etc., just as I previously clarified  the same about meditation.  Only reason I comment on these is if it is  falsely ascribed to what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches us for  salvation and leading a good life or finding God/creator.  As all such  has been repeatedly put down in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as there is  nothing mechanical about knowing the creator.


Bhajans are very much part of the journey to salvation in Guru Granth Sahib. That is what I am claiming.


----------

