# Why Number One Is For Two Guru's Vaak In Japji Sahib?



## Admin (Jul 23, 2005)

Originally Posted by : *Balbir Singh*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear Gurbani Lovers!

I have a curiosity.

In Japuji Sahib after Guru's Vaak "hai bhee sach naanak hosee bhee sach" number '1' occurs.

The same number '1' occurs again after Guru's Vaak "hukam rajaa-ee chalnaa naanak likhi-aa 

naal"

Please explain what the use of same number '1' indicates at both the places?

I will be grateful.


Balbir Singh


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## Admin (Jul 23, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Originally Posted by : *Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji Arshi*

Veer balbir Singh Ji,

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru Ji KI Fateh.

The First numeral [1] is for the First Slok in [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurugranthsahib/gurugranthsahib.html"]Guru Granth[/URL] Ji sahib. This Slok is frm AAd Sach...to nank Hosee bhee sach [1] Two Dandees or Full Stops and then the TITLE of the bani PRECEEDED by TWO DANDEES [[ JAP ]] followed by another two Dandees [[]..again Full Stop.

Then The FIRST PAURREE of Jap begins..and at its end there is Numeral [1] to indicate end of First Paurree. Two DANDEES are placed before every numeral ending indicating FULL STOP. This numbering goes on uninterrupted until the end of 38th Purree. Then we have the Ending Slok and the Numeral [1] at its end as well.

Even though the First SLOK of Japji Sahib doesnt cary the title "SLOK" as does its ending slok, it is clear from the DANDEES that the Full Stop is at GURPARSAAD..and then Jap and then Slok..and then Paurrees. Guru Arjun Ji Sahib Gives this Same Panktees..AAD SAch..until nanak Hosee Bhee sach in SRI SUKHMANI SAHIB and clearly indicates that it is a SLOK..leaving no doubt that this is a SLOK and NOT part of the Moolmantar, as most of the Sants/traditionalists claim. IF we take that this is all ONE continuous Panktee from EK Oankar to Hosee bhee sach..then we encounter THREE Obstructions to the FLOW... THREE SETS of DOUBLE DANDEES placed IN BETWEEN the panktee and the Numeral [1]. NO Bani in Guru garnth Ji is "cut up" by double dandees in this way. According to Gurbani Grammar and Laws of Linguistics/poetry in which Gurbani is written these lines are a "SLOK"..they are not Paurree/dohra/etc. ALL Scholars refer to this as SLOK.

For more comprehensive expalnation read the 10 Volume "Guru Granth ji [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurugranthdarpan/gurugranthdarpan.html"]Darpan[/URL]" of Prof sahib Singh Ji...www.darpan.com . Prof sahib singh Ji is one of the pioneer schoalrs to comprehensively tackle the issue fo GURBANI GRAMMAR which is UNIQUE to Gurbani ONLY.

Regards..

Jarnail Singh Gyani Arshi


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## Admin (Jul 23, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Originally Posted by : *Balbir Singh Ji*

Satsriakal to all and Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji!
Thanks for your explanation.

You wrote "According to Gurbani Grammar and Laws of Linguistics/poetry in which Gurbani is written these lines are a "SLOK"..they are not Paurree/dohra/etc. ALL Scholars refer to this as SLOK."

In my understanding poetry is always in a metric scale, i.e., counts of Matras. This is also the reason why poetry is easy to sing in particular Ragas.

Is there a particular reason why the word 'SLOK' is not used in the beginning of Gurbani?

In Sukhmani Sahib "aad sach jugaad sach hai bhe sach naanak hosee bhe sach" have got a title 'SLOK'.

This Guru's Vaak occurs as 'SLOK' when it is independent and alone. Whereas in Japuji Sahib, this Vaak from [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurunanak/gurunanakdevji.html"]Guru Nanak[/URL] Ji is not alone.

You have also used the word 'Moolmantar'. 

Please let me know which of our Gurus have told us what 'Moolmantar' is?


Balbir Singh


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## Admin (Jul 23, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Originally Posted by *Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji Arshi* 

Guruswareh Veer balbir Singh Ji,
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki fateh.

The words Moolmantar, Beej mantar, Gurmantar are man made. NO Guru Ji told anyone that.


Slok is a Chhand..variety of Poetry.

It is not mandatory to write "SLOK" in front of every "slok"..just as in Japji Sahib..each PAURREE is NOT titled "PAURREE"....but all [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikhphilosophy/search/forum/38-1.html"]Sikhs[/URL] refer to these as the 38 Paurrees of japji Sahib. The Last SLOK of Japji sahib is titled "Slok"

Gurbani is written according to the chhands etc and EACH one is instantly RECOGNISABLE..whether it is identified as such or not.

There are about 152 SLOKS extra to the Vaars and they are all groupred together before MUndawni towards the end of [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurugranthsahib/gurugranthsahib.html"]Guru Granth[/URL] ji sahib..under one collective title..SLOK varaan te Vadheek.

I hope this clarifies Ji.

Gurfateh


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## Admin (Jul 23, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Originally Posted by Balbir Singh Ji

Satsriakal to all and respected Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji!
Thanks for your post and illuminations.

You wrote that it is not mandatory to write "SLOK" in front of every "slok"..just as in Japji Sahib..each PAURREE is NOT titled "PAURREE"....but all Sikhs refer to these as the 38 Paurrees of japji Sahib. The Last SLOK of Japji sahib is titled "Slok".

My curiosity is not to know why Sikhs refer to first part of Japuji as 'SLOK' or the following stanzas as 'PAUREE'.

There may be many customary practices which some Sikhs may have adopted without any instructions from our Gurus.

I am not surprised to read your point "The words Moolmantar, Beej mantar, Gurmantar are man made. NO Guru Ji told anyone that."

I thought that Gurdev has conveyed a message by using number '1' twice in some of Verses like in Japuji Sahib.

It would be great to have Satsangs with you all on this and other messages from Gurbani in SPN Forum, also in the future.

Love.


Balbir Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 24, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Guruswareh veer Balbir Singh jio,
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa waheguru Ji KI fateh.

As far as I can ascertain... SLOKS, PAURREES, KABITTS, DOHRAS, ASHTPADEES, VAAR, CHHANT, etc etc are the various types of KAVITA..POETRY.

As we can see in Sri Sukhmani Sahib..there are SLOKS and there  are Ashtpadees...  WHAT reason would there be to "call one piece a SLOK..and the other an "ashtpadee"...than the reason that these are SLOKS and the others are ashtpadees..Chaupadeh, Do padeh, etc..all Different types of CHHANDS used by Gurdev Ji to wrote Gurbani in POETRY FORM.  IF GURDEV had used an ESSAY FORM..( WARTAK FORM ) it would be all one continous piece of ESSAY.

IN English Literature I used to teach..Lyrics, , hymns, Psalms,LIMERICKS, ODES, etc etc and they are instantly recognisable to  a linguist. No one woudlk call an ODE..a "LIMERICK"...just l;ike no one will call a "SLOK" a "PAURREE" because they are DIFFERENT.

The entire Jap Ji is a LONG GEET...sung by GURDEV to the sweet sound of Mardana's REBAB....this is PUNJABI LITERATURE's FIRST RELIGIOUS POEm/GEET...says Prof Surinder Singh kohli.

It is very heartwarming to have soul mates like your good self on SPN to discuss Gurdev...

Jarnail Singh Gyani


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## Archived_member2 (Jul 24, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Satsriakal to all and learned Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji!
It is nice to note that you used to teach poetry and its different forms.

Have I understood you correctly?
According to you Guru Nanak Dev Ji used number '1' after "hai bhee sach naanak hosee bhee sach" to express that this is 'Slok'.
And Gurdev again used number '1' after "hukam rajaa-ee chalnaa naanak likhi-aa naal" to express that this stanza is 'Pauree'.

In my view, Guru Nanak Dev Ji has not sung Japuji to differentiate His Verses this way.

You seem to have good knowledge about Poetry. 

Please let me express my curiosity in a different way.

Suppose a poet writes poetry. After compiling the first stanza he writes '1'. We understand him.
The poet sings further. He writes the second stanza and gives it again number '1'.
By doing so the poet raises a curiosity in me. 
I feel he has done it purposely to make me aware of something.

I still find my Gurdev smiling at me.

Perhaps a teacher like you can throw some more light on it.

Love.


Balbir Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 24, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Veer balbir Singh Ji,
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji KI fateh.

Gurdev Is always smiling at all his beloveds.
But this numeral [1] is the numbering sysytem put in place by GURU SAHIB Jee to stop any and all plagirising, additions adulterations, etc. Gurdev has at numerous places written SUB TOTALS...TOTALS..juts like an Accountant would do to signify his document has been checked.  This UNBREAKABLE numbering system is one of the main reasons WHY Gurbani in Guur Granth Ji has  survived 500 years without any Additions, changes, adultertions in the 1429 AAngs before Mundawnai Seal of Guru Ji.

Look at Sri Sukhmani Sahib.  The Numeral [1] appears at the end of panktee Sri Gudev Eh nameh...  Then the Numeral [1] again appears at the end of panktee..Nanank Un Sang Mohi Udharo [1]...BUT then STOPS and numeral [2] begisn adn so on..

WHY ?? Because the First numerl [1] signifies ONE SLOK.  IF there had been a SECOND SLOK immediately following this..and more..then the numbers would go to [2]..[3]...[4]...[5]..etc.

SAME SYSTEM in JAPJI SAHIB.

Gurdev Ji is smiling....because His SYSTEM of Numbering has saved the Guru Granth ji from being changed and adulterated as has been most of our LITERATURE, janam Sakhis, Varaan, Ithishas etc.

AT any other place also IF there is ONLY ONE SLOK, CHHANT, PAURREE..then there will be only [1]...but if there are more then the numbers run in sequence..and a Sub total/Total Jorr keceh sign from Guru Ji is there.

Basking in the Warm Glow of Gurdev Ji's Smile....

Jarnail Singh Arshi


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## Archived_member2 (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Satsriakal to all and Gyani Jarnail Singh JI!
Veer Ji!

You wrote "But this numeral [1] is the numbering sysytem put in place by GURU SAHIB Jee to stop any and all plagirising, additions adulterations, etc."

I will try to understand how using number '1' for two subsequent stanzas can stop plagiarism. I hope I can solve the home work given by you.

Perhaps you can explain the following.

I found the 'SLOK' beginning with "saahib mayraa sadaa hai disai sabad kamaa-ay" on page 509.
This 'SLOK' has six lines. After the Vaak "naanak ayv na jaap-ee kartaa kaytee day-ay sajaa-ay" it is numbered '1'.

After this 'SLOK' the first stanza of the Shabad is this.

"sachaa naam Dhi-aa-ee-ai sabho vartai sach.
naanak hukam bujh parvaan ho-ay taa fal paavai sach.
kathnee badnee kartaa firai hukmai mool na bujh-ee anDhaa kach nikach." SGGS page 509

The above stanza is numbered '2'. This stanza is not numbered '1' as in the beginning of Sukhmani Sahib after the 'SLOK'.

Is here some other numbering system put in place by GURU SAHIB Ji to stop Plagiarism, additions or adulteration?

You seem to be convinced when you wrote "Gurdev Ji is smiling....because His SYSTEM of Numbering has saved the Guru Granth ji from being changed and adulterated as has been most of our LITERATURE, janam Sakhis, Varaan, Ithishas etc."

I am not sure if this SYSTEM of Numbering is only to save Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji from adulteration etc.

Thanks for trying to make me intelligent.


Balbir Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 26, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Satkar Yog Balbir Singh jio,
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.

I dont see what is the "problem". This vaar has 22 Paurrees and sloks. The SLOKs are numbered correctly [1] and the following slok [2].

Then Paurree followed by the next two sloks numbered accordingly.  This system is followed scruplously through out the Vaar and the Next one too...and through out the entire Guru Granth ji sahib.



Here is what Prof sahib Singh Ji in His Guru Granth Ji darpan has to say about this:


*vwr dI bxqr :—*
*ieh ‘vwr’ gurU Amrdws jI dI rcnw hY, ies ivc 22 paVIAW hn, hryk paVI ivc pMj pMj qkW hn [ hryk pauVI dy nwl do do Slok hn; pauVI nM: 4 dy nwl pihlw Slok kbIr jI dw hY, bwkI dy swry Slok gurU Amrdws jI dy hn [*
*kbIr jI dw ie`k Slok hoxw BI d`sdw hY ik ‘vwr’ qy ‘Slok’ ie`ko vkq nhIN ilKy gey ikauNik ‘vwr’ dy SlokW dI bxqr ivc iek-surqw nhIN rih geI [ jy iehnW dy ilKx dw vkq ie`k hI hMudw qW pauVI nM: 4 dy nwl isr& ie`ko slok nwh ilKdy [ ies pauVI dy SlokW ƒ pVH ky vyKo; gurU Amrdws jI ny ieh Slok aucwirAw BI kbIr jI dy Slok dy prQwie hI hY (vyKo, slok kbIr jI nM: 58) [ so, ieh dovyN Slok gurU Arjn swihb ny ies pauVI dy Bwv nwl imldy vyK ky drj kIqy hn pr ieh nhIN sI ho skdw ik jy gurU Amrdws jI swry Slok BI nwl hI aucwrdy qW ies pauVI nM: 4 ƒ ^wlI C`f dyNdy, so, swry hI Slok bIV iqAwr krn vyly gurU Arjn swihb ny drj kIqy [*

*not :—sRI krqwrpur vwlI ‘bIV’ ivc ies ‘vwr’ dI ‘bwxI’ dI ilKq nwloN ‘slok m: 3’ Awidk swry isr-lyK brIk, ilKq dy hn [ ies qoN AMdwzw ieh l`g skdw hY ik isr-lyKW vwsqy pihlW QW ^wlI rKI geI hY, iPr cMgI qrHW soD ky (ik slok TIk ausy hI gur-ivAkqI dy hn) ‘isr-lyK’ bwrIk klm nwl drj kIqy hn [ qwhIeyN ‘vwr’ dy mu`kx qy hwSIey qoN bwhr l&z ‘suDu’ iliKAw hY, Bwv ieh ik, Slok TIk isr-lyK vwly gur-ivAkqI dy hI hn; ieh g`l soD ky vyK leI hY [*

*The Sloks by Guru Amardass ji, Bhagt Kabir Ji are added in by Guru Arjun Ji sahib and certified SHUDH later on when totaling up them all at Vaar's end.*

The Next Vaar Gujree Ki is also following the EXACT SAME numbering system.
Here is what Prof Sahib Singh ji has to say about this on Page 517 of His Guru Granth darpan.


*vwr dI bxqr*
*ieh ‘vwr’ gurU Arjn swihb dI rcI hoeI hY, ies ivc 21 ‘pauVIAW’ hn, hryk pauVI dy nwl do do Slok hn, swry SlokW dI igxqI 42 hY, qy ieh swry Slok BI gurU Arjn swihb dy hI hn [*
*hryk ‘pauVI’ ivc A`T A`T qukW hn, isr& pauVI nM: 20 ivc pMj qukW hn [ pihlI qy vIhvIN pauVI C`f ky bwkI swrIAW pauVIAW dy nwl vrqy hoey Slok do do qukW dy hn (dUjI pauVI dw pihlw Slok BI cwr qukW dw hY), iehnW 37 SlokW ivc lihMdI bolI dy l&z izAwdw imldy hn [ SlokW dI sWvI vMf, ieko ijhI ‘do-qukI’ bnwvt, ieko ijhw mzmUn, swry hI Slok qy pauVIAW ieko hI gur-ivAkqI dIAW—iehnW g`lW qoN suqy hI ieh Anumwn lwieAw jw skdw hY ik ieh ‘vwr’ qy ies dy nwl vrqy hoey ‘Slok’ ieko hI vkq dy aucwry hoey hn [ ‘Awsw dI vwr’ ivc ieh g`l nhIN hY, iek qW EQy SlokW dy mzmUn v`Ko-v`Kry hn, dUjy, pauVIAW nwl vrqy SlokW dI vMf sWvI nhIN hY, qIjy, keI pauVIAW nwl gurU nwnk swihb dw Awpxw aucwirAw hoieAw koeI Slok BI nhIN hY *
*I hope this helps clear any doubts. The NUMBERING SYSTEM is UNIQUE and certified Shudh by guru Ji himself.*

*Please dont make me "sharminda"....who is this nimanna gursikh to make any one "intelligent" or not. That is Guru Ji's Purview and Department Ji.*

*Thanks*

*Jarnail Singh Gyani.*


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## Archived_member2 (Jul 26, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Satsriakal to all and Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji!
Veer Ji!

You wrote "I dont see what is the 'problem'."

Please do not search for a problem. I have not indicated a problem either.

You assert big values to Gurbani as I do but with a little difference.

Some people may feel to give title to Guru's Vaak where HE has not done so. They may search Truth or God by researching Gurbani to find where and when Gurdev uses a comma or a full stop. It is the free WILL of God what HE wants them to be engaged with.

I feel Gurbani is the flow of God's Vani. We do not need to give any title to a part of it.

--------------

Spiritual seekers may enjoy the following words.

Here are few thoughts how God's Vani uses words and the human language to express HIM, the truthful unexpressed ONE and the mayic expressed ONE. 

Guru Nanak Ji sang Nirguna Parmeshwar being aware of ONE. The result was "ik-oNkaar sat naam kartaa purakh nirbha-o nirvair akaal moorat ajoonee saibhaN gur parsaad. JAP. aad sach jugaad sach. hai bhee sach naanak hosee bhee sach." '1'

Guru Nanak Ji sang Sarguna Parmeshwar being aware of ONE. The result is the song beginning from "sochai soch na hova-ee jay sochee lakh vaar  . . . "in different following stanzas.

The unexpressed Nirguna Parmeshwar is the space for the expressed Sarguna Parmeshwar. It is ONE completely.

The expressed Sarguna Parmeshwar is the form of the unexpressed Nirguna Parmeshwar. It is ONE completely.

The unexpressed ONE does not need numbers to be expressed further. HE is not zero. HE is ONE. HE exists. HE IS. From HIS Existence HE expresses HIM as Sarguna Swaroop also.
God's Sarguna Swaroop cannot take birth from zero.
The first part of Japuji received number 'ONE' as The Nirguna Swaroop of Parmeshwar is complete ONE.

The second stanza of Japuji Sahib is the beginning of the Sarguna Swaroop of Parmeshwar. This is why the Pauree beginning from "sochai soch na hova-ee jay sochee lakh vaar . . ." also receives number 'ONE'.
The Sarguna Swaroop of Parmeshwar is not realized by a worldly person as ONE. For him HE appears in parts. 
Gurdev, while conversing with worldly persons, explains God's Sarguna Swaroop in parts. This is why the rest of Japuji Sahib is numbered.

All what we realize as thought is just a step prior to the creation. One may go on thinking. The world will go on evaluating.

The flow of energy gets reversed to realize Nirguna Parmeshwar. The thought process comes to rest. 

I have heard. God had a wish. This wish was realized as thought first. The universe then became HIS creation.

Let it be enough for today.

Love.


Balbir Singh


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## drkhalsa (Jul 26, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Dear Balbir ji 

Sat Shri Akal 

very very interesting viewpoint you have given but later part of ot , i could not understand well


> All what we realize as thought is just a step prior to the creation. One may go on thinking. The world will go on evaluating.


 
can you please explain a bit further 

Akal Sahai 

Jatinder Singh
The flow of energy gets reversed to realize Nirguna Parmeshwar. The thought process comes to rest.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 26, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Veer balbir Singh Jio,
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.

In my humble opinion..no pathee gives a "title" where Guru Ji has NOT given one.... Hence where Guru Ji wrote: Slok mahalla pehla....we will read it as ..Slok mahalal pehla... and when the Folloiwng Slok is just written as..Mahalla Pehla.... we will read it as ..Mahalla Pehla ( and NOT add SLOK word on our own although its Bantar CONSTRUCTION shows that that is indeed a SLOK )

As such i have yet to come across anyone saying the words..SLOK Mh Pehal before commencing reading AAd sach Jugaad sach...

And no one i beleive says out the titles..Paurree before commencing reading the 38 paurrees of Japji sahib.  We only read out loud PAURREE IF Guru Ji has WRITTEN it down.

I love your posts..Stay in Charrdeekala veer ji.

Jarnail Singh Gyani.


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## Archived_member2 (Jul 27, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Veer Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji!

You wrote " . . . no pathee gives a "title" where Guru Ji has NOT given one  . . . "

Paathees may be doing fewer errors while reading Gurbani than those intellectuals who are slaves of their smart mind.

--------------

Dear Jatinder Singh Ji!

A wish takes birth. This is realized by the Jeev when it is transformed into thought. This thought when gets transformed into creativity the Jeev is freed from it. The world comes to recognize the Jeev from his activities.

Many wishes do not get a convert into thoughts. Many thoughts do not get transformed into activities. These remain stored in the Jeev and wait for the next opportunity. The Jeev gets new birth again and again till he is freed from all the wishes.

By God's Grace the Jeev comes to know the Sat Guru and JAP. Through JAP Nirguna Parmeshwar blesses the Jeev with HIS Darshan. The Jeev, who knows Sarguna Swaroop of God only in parts, receives first glimpses of Nirguna Paarbrahma. This is how the Jeev not only comes to recognize ONENESS of the ONE but also the silence state of thoughts.

This is the 'RAHAAO' Our Gurus have mentioned in Gurbani.

Have you ever wondered why 'Rahaao' always occurs after the 'ONE' in Gurbani but never after any other number?

Love.


Balbir Singh


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## NamHariKaur (Jul 27, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Sat Nam Balbir Singh Ji:
_(or anyone else that can help)._

Would you be so kind as to give brief definitions/explanations of the following terms from your posting? There are some here such as myself who have only come to Sikhi in recent times and do not know all the terminology.

Thank You! 
Nam Hari Kaur, Eugene, Oregon

*TERMS:*
Pathee 
Jeev 
Nirguna Parmeshwar 
Darshan (I know this one but others might not). 
Sarguna Swaroop of God 
Nirguna Paarbrahma. 
RAHAAO'


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## Archived_member2 (Jul 27, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Satsriakal to all and Nam Hari Kaur Ji!
I appreciate your curiosity and try to explain the terms as it comes.

A Paathee among Sikhs is one who reads Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, often professionally.

Jeev is one who is alive.

Nirguna means one without qualities.

Parameshwar is the Supreme.

Darshan, in worldly sense, is experiencing something through senses specially through eyes.
Darshan, in spiritual sense, is experiencing God by transcending senses.

Sarguna means one with qualities.

Swaroop is the own form that appears and is experienced.

Brahma is all that is perceptible. 

Paarbrahma is all that is beyond and in the core of Brahma.

Rahao is the established state of silence without wishes, thoughts and activities.

The true experience of the above terms can be realized by Simran or JAP, not by discussions.

Regards.


Balbir Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 27, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Veer balbir Singh Ji,
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji KI fateh.

.................................................................
Have you ever wondered why 'Rahaao' always occurs after the 'ONE' in Gurbani but never after any other number? .................
..............................................................................................

If we read AAng 678 Dhanasari Mh 5.... we will find that RAHAO can also occur BEFORE the Number 1...and in many examples there are TWO Rahaos..which Guur Ji refers to as RAHAO DOOJA.  

Rahao..Pause..means Guru Ji's signal for us to PAUSE...PONDEr...over the Central Theme of the Shaabd.....it would be most logical for Gurudev to ask us to RAHAO after the FIRST Panktee as that Panktee is ususally the MOST IMPORTANT. This is a Perfect system... First panktee "INTRODUCES" the MOst important theme of the Shabd..the RAHAO Signal asks us to Pause and PONDER over what has been said...and then the remaining four of five panktees ELABORATE on the First and rahao panktees.

In AAng 30  and  AAng 46  and other places the word  RAHAO..even occurs INSIDE a shabad without any number.

IF the Message is to be made even more clearer than that..Gurdev signals a SECOND RAHAO..usually  towards the END. This occurs 25 times..and is numbered [1] but written as rahao DOOJA in words to indicate this is the SECOND Rahao..and since this Rahao panktee is NOT Part of the shabad it is renumbered [1].

Imho..not all "pathees" are gyanis and not all "Gyanis" are pathees...
Simialry not all "pathees" are smart minded...and not all Gyanis "not so smart"..Gurudev keeps us all in our own little space. I am perfectly satisfied to be where i am. Incidentally I have been a "Gyani" for just 30 years but a "pathee" for 50..but I am still not that smart...Gurudev is smiling and I am learning....and in the company of learned ones like your self veer ji i am sure i will learn much faster.

Stay in Charrdeekala

Jarnail Singh gyani


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## Archived_member2 (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Veer Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji!

It is impressing to read your statement "Incidentally I have been a "Gyani" for just 30 years but a "pathee" for 50 . . ."

I was gyani till gyan was owned by me. 

I was paathee till my Guru told me this.

"bayd katayb simrit sabh saasat inH parhi-aa mukat na ho-ee. ayk akhar jo gurmukh jaapai tis kee nirmal so-ee." SGGS Ang 747
Veda, Bible, Simrities, all books of knowledge, by reading those liberation does not befall. One letter which the mouth of Guru repeats of that soothing is true.

You stared with "If we read AAng 678 Dhanasari Mh 5.... we will find that RAHAO can also occur BEFORE the Number 1 . . ."

I found RAHAA-O thrice on Ang 678 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Every time after RAHAA-O, there is  Guru's Vaak but not the number '1'.

You continued with " . . .and in many examples there are TWO Rahaos..which Guur Ji refers to as RAHAO DOOJA."

In Gurbani the word 'Rah-o' occurs too. Also the word 'Rahaa-o' occurs in the Guru's Vaak, mostly at the end of the Guru's Vaak.
The independent 'RAHAA-O', I referred, occurs after the completion of Guru's Vaak. These Guru's Vaaks are given number '1'. In rare cases those are without any number but never after any other number.

The difference between 'Rah-o' and 'Rahaa-o' is similar to the difference between 'kar-o' and 'karaa-o'. In 'kar-o' and 'Rah-o' the presence of ego remains. The word 'karaa-o' and 'Rahaa-o' are depending on God's Grace through others.

'Rah-o' and 'Rahaa-o', in a sentence, are part of an activity.

The independent 'RAHAA-O', after the completion of the Guru's Vaak, is the state of silence without wishes, thoughts and activities.

This 'RAHAA-O' is written adjoining and following number '1', also rarely without any number. 

It is not surprising when the presence of God makes one unaware even of the worldly number one.

The expression of number one is a part of human and worldly language. This one has nothing to do with the 'ONE' TRUTH. 

In God's presence worldly numbers disappear. The TRUE ONE remains.  

You wrote " . . .and in the company of learned ones like your self veer ji i am sure i will learn much faster."

I do not teach.

Love.


Balbir Singh


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## NamHariKaur (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Sat Nam Balbir Ji -
Thank you so much for these definitions!
I understand that our thoughts and mental constructs  are the mere shadows of spiritual realities and can never properly represent them. Nonetheless we sometimes gain inspiration from thoughts and words about God and mammon and this can bring us to do what opens us to the spiritual realms. If not, what point would there be in any of these discussions at SPN? 
Wahe Guru and Guru Ji's Blessings to you this day!

Nam Hari Kaur, Eugene, Oregon


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

Guru Swareh and Guur Piyare Veer Balbir Singh Ji,
WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH.

you wrote:

<<<I do not teach.<<<<<

We all do..just by being here on SPN....and a lot of others like myself are learning all the same.  Guurdev is smiling...when he sees us learning..becasue that is what "SIKH" really means. I would like to meet you to have darshan...if Gurudev permits and wills it...

Thank You.

Love

Jarnail Singh Gyani


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## phajan (May 2, 2008)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

the first 1 is the end of the mool mantar which starts from ek ongkar and carries on till nanak hosi bhi sach. this is the mul mantar u must no what mul mantar is and the other one is the 1st pauri of japji sahib


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## spnadmin (May 2, 2008)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

phajan ji

There is a philosophical explanation for this and I cannot remember what it is. I for one say the mool mantar all the way out to Nanaka hosi bi sach because it gives a feeling of being complete and strong. This is just a personal reaction.


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## pk70 (May 2, 2008)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

*All Jio

Guru ji starts Jap Ji with possible description of The Ultimate Power he believes in. Then Gur Ji's bani is named as "JAP", we in respect call JapJi; It starts with a slok" aad Sach, jagaad Sach , hai bhee Sach Nanak hosi bhee Sach" followed with number one( 1 ) indicating, there is only one slok or guru Vaak about that Super Power. After that, journey to realize Him starts in stanzas which are numbered as explained by Giani Jarnail Singh ji based on beautiful explanation by Dr. sahib Singh Ji.
Most important is to ponder over what Guru ji said, rest is just a mere talk incapable of  bringing close to Guru message.
*


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## spnadmin (May 2, 2008)

*Re: Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japuji Sahib?*

* Most important is to ponder over what Guru ji said, rest is just a mere talk incapable of  bringing close to Guru message.
*
Agreed, pk70


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