# Promoting JHATKA



## Archived_member7 (Aug 7, 2008)

Saadh Sangatji,
Waheguruji ka Khalsa Waheguruji ki Fateh 

Our TENTH Guru Maharaj ji (THE TRUE EMPEROR) had ordered us to abstain from eatiing halal and consume meat only slaughter by Jhatka ..can we not try to promote it ?

can we have fliers requesting Jhatka ? Can we also remind the Hindus that this is the only way we can consume meat ?

I am  recently in Indore and have seen a lot of laxatiies in Jhatka...

A hindu meat shopkeeper asks me " Why do u have a psychological problem ? " ..my blood boils ...!!! how can i make him realize ?

I need guidence it seems ..or alteast a group of sikhs with whom i can perform Jhatka and promote it ....

Can anyone help ?

Raaj Karega Khalsa


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 7, 2008)

<<A hindu meat shopkeeper asks me " Why do u have a psychological problem ? " ..my blood boils ...!!! how can i make him realize ?

I need guidence it seems ..or alteast a group of sikhs with whom i can perform Jhatka and promote it ....>>

buy from someone who will do it for you.

you want to do Jhatka with Sikhs and not chicken or something else?


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## Sinister (Aug 7, 2008)

very difficult to help

tell him to give you jhatka...or else...threaten to make jhatka out of him 
customer is always right

Indore ehh! I passed through once, (doing a long haul trip from mumbai to agra)
I had some Poha and Jalebi...


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 7, 2008)

Indore has some nice sweet shops..


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 8, 2008)

IF its "Halal" DONT Eat. Everything else is ACCEPTABLE.


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 8, 2008)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> IF its "Halal" DONT Eat. Everything else is ACCEPTABLE.


Well, what if those butchers kill slowly but don't say "the words"?


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 8, 2008)

SaadhSangatji 

Waheguruji ka Khalsa Waheguruji ki Fateh

I thank all of you for your response..some answers were funny:rofl!!:

But my point is ...Can we not have a supplier chain ? Pull in our people..we have so many sections of our society ( i shall not use the word caste) ..which are still underdeveloped or in the developing stage ..the sikligars..or many others i might not know ...can we not have a share of this growing meat market ?

I would await the day ..when we have a choice ..why is that muslims can have a choice and not us ...

I am wanting to setup a shop ...sangat residing in Indore if we have any guys here ..can contact me ..

When in Mumbai i could'nt eat chicken since the meat market is largely halal..i know vegeterianism is good ..but i feel as a sikh ..we should a choice ..the hindus too need to be pulled it ..so do the buddhists...

I shall give an example here..I recently had visited Ladakh...again there it was the same case ..muslim suppliers ...incidently my driver who's cab we had hired ..told me he was planning to buy a shop ..but dint know what business to make ..I suggest a Jhatka shop..pat came the reply with his hands folded in a prayer pose .." Dont say this ..Its a Sin..I cannot kill " 

I was shocked ..this man had been an ex - army officer ..he had shot Pakis ..he would eat chicken..but not kill it or setup a business..why ???? He said his village folk would exterminate him from the society ..more like an outcaste... 

Can we atleast come put of this mentality ???

I have come across sikhs in mumbai ..many into hotel industry..calling me names ..since .I talked about Jhatka..they called a man of the lost Era ...

I think i need to think about this sincerely and .sangatji..lets think of this seriously..

Raaj Karega KHALSA

_*Image removed : Not required.*_


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## pk70 (Aug 8, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> saadhsangatji
> 
> Waheguruji Ka Khalsa Waheguruji Ki Fateh
> 
> ...


 *request

Can Any One Can Delete This Picture< There  Are Children Who May Be Going On This Site*, *for What Purpose It Has Been Posted*


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## spnadmin (Aug 8, 2008)

Jio,

I have sent the post over to Leaders to get a group opinion. Thank you for raising the question. We have not in the time that I have been a moderator deleted pictures of even human torture. So I don't know what the opinions will be. But good question. let's see what happens.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 9, 2008)

aadji

this picture is shocking !!!



Rajkhalsa ji

instead of waiting for mods to remove it, i urge ur sensibilities to remove it.


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## spnadmin (Aug 9, 2008)

I hope everyone understands that mods just don't delete here and delete there based on personal instincts-- even though some think we do. I hate the picture and can hardly look at it.  But we have a no censorship-without-discussion-policy on the forum unless there is a blatant violation of forum rules. You can actually lobby for its removal by writing to Admin at Contact Us in the links above.


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## Sinister (Aug 9, 2008)

_*NO! to censorship!!!*_ :down:

the post is clearly tightled: "promotion of Jhatka" 
and that is as clear of a promotion as it can get...showing people how its done.

the rest of the decision should be left to Raj Khalsa...
if your eyesight is offended then the next link is just a click away! stop looking at it.

the decision should be in the hands of the poster!


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 9, 2008)

Saadh Sangatji

Waheguruji ka Khalsa Waheguruji ki Fateh

Bhul Chuk Muaaf Karni...May I know what was so bad about the picture ??? Its not about me right and you wrong ..or vice a versa ...I confused..shocked ..lost..!!!!
:shock:

There is better slaughter pictures in a child's book..chicken chops sausages..pork..stuffed pork...beef..lamb ...and much more ..veers in USA  have a better idea...

I believe all those sensitive veers who would like to have this pic removed are in some associated with vegeterianism..or our other brotherhood sangats like Akhand Kirtani Jatha...

For all our sensitive veers ..i think when a child sees this picture ..this will be a boon in disguise..since the child will have questions ..(are we afraid of those questions by the way ?) This picture might promote vegeterianism in that child if he/she  knows how this works  ...and gets affected by slaughter..

I respect all yor emotions Veers ..and we are one ..but please make me understand ..I have the highest respect for vegeterianism and vegeterians ..please dont get me wrong...

Bhai Sinister ji I thank you for understanding me ..lets all our veers discuss this and enlighten me ..how a ritual..which is part of our culture.....can be censored..i would like to know ..

Veers ..trust me ..if all our Saadh Sangat feels i have done something wrong ..I will remove the pic.. there is no ego issue ..after all we are here to unite and not fight ..

i a sanatan sikh..another a kirtani jatha..maybe someone a namdhari...our basic idea is to unite and not prove the other one wrong ..*WE ARE ONE* 

Will be waiting for more of your opinion...

Sri Akaal Sahaay

Raj Karega KHALSA


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## spnadmin (Aug 9, 2008)

Raj ji

I hope you understand that the mods usually balance different sides of a question. Sinister ji, this one part of the discussion is a perfect example of how moderation can't win. I hope you see that. One side or the other will be offended. And no one is going to make the decision without looking at forum rule and discussion.


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## pk70 (Aug 9, 2008)

May I know what was so bad about the picture ???( quote Raj Khalsa)
*Raj khalsa ji*
*I dont no how you come up with those labels like jatha etc; however, let me just ask you one thing?
If we write about a rape, do you thing it is necessay to give a video of rape? If some thing can be explained with words, why we need pictures about which we may have reservations ?
Here are the words which convey the same message you have tried through that picture.
" Jhatka= killing of an animal with one blow on the neck with a sharp weapon
Halaal= killing of an animal slowly while reciting religious words from  scriptures, in other words to sacrifice the animal by forcing it to go through slow death unlike jhatka.
Do I need pictures of Jhatka or Halaal?
It is not vergiterian or any jatha thing as you have assumed rajkhalsa ji, it is limit we follow while practicing right to express..
As sinister ji said, it should be in your hands, I agree but some time every thing cannot be left only in the hands of the people who post their views, I stand by that too..
If that picture really will promote your Jhatka business, good luck, I wonder how those people can join you who even dont know jhatka and to make them understand, you have to put this picture!!!
*


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## Sinister (Aug 9, 2008)

talking about slaughter...does this picture bother anybody?







look at all that distruction of life!
you cannot compare slaughtering animals to the act of raping someone 

these people make a living out of this...they.. nor their actions are equivalent to rapists...slaughtering is not even close to raping a human being...it is their reality and this reality should be viewed by all to see and be discussed.



_with all the baby sentiments pushed aside, i think its time for some grown-up talk:_ 
aren't most of the meat shops in punjab serving jhatka meat? most slaughter houses i know in the west kill quickly (the ones I have seen) (although growing the animals is not always humane...the execution usually is)

what is a humane execution and what can be labelled as jhatka? 
is jhatka complete decapitation? severing of the spinal cord?

That means sikhs are not allowed to hunt for their food...they are only allowed to grow it. (which cannot be the case...because the innuit cannot become a sikh...and sikhism loses its universal appeal)

i know mass produced chicken meat, on some large poultry farms, the chickens are electrocuted until the heart stops (is this Jhatka as well?...a chicken can be electrocuted in about 9-20 seconds?

some farms use CO2

some farms have a metal rod that they shoot into the head of the cow killing it instantly... then they have to drain the blood (open the carotid arteries and let it drain using gravity)

complete decapitation is never done on larger animals like cows:
YouTube - Beef Slaughterhouse (part 4-10)

who defines how quick death should be?


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## pk70 (Aug 9, 2008)

look at all that distruction of life!
  you cannot compare slaughtering animals to the act of raping someone( quote sinister ji)

*Yes in context of limit we exercise in description and expression of any violent act. Mistakenly you have posted a picture of harvesting ( plants reach to their end, if no one cut, their end remains the same, you could have posted other one to prove your point…. ) 
*these people make a living out of this...they.. nor their actions are equivalent to rapists...slaughtering is not even close to raping a human being...it is their reality and this reality should be viewed by all to see and be discussed.
*Again I didn’t point out at profession at all, my comments were limited to description, not a word against jhatka, so my friend, what are you reading?
*_with all the baby sentiments pushed aside, i think its time for some grown-up talk:_ 
aren't most of the meat shops in punjab serving jhatka meat? most slaughter houses i know in the west kill quickly (the ones I have seen) (although growing the animals is not always humane...the execution usually is)
*Again Sinister ji, it has nothing to do with the way of expression and the limits we exercise while describing any violent act
*what is a humane execution and what can be labelled as jhatka? 
*Again this was not the topic as Halaal and jhatka were explained without commenting on those actions( whether good or bad). Jhatka means literally Push, jerk, shock, concussion, mode of beheading an animal with one stroke.  ( Encyclopedia & Dictionaries…Hope it can be useful)*
  is jhatka complete decapitation? severing of the spinal cord?
*,I have posted the literal meaning above,  I have never dreamt to go in detail as my interest in this context is highly limited.*
That means sikhs are not allowed to hunt for their food...they are only allowed to grow it. (which cannot be the case...because the innuit cannot become a Sikh...and Sikhism loses its universal appeal)
*You are jumping on conclusions; nothing has been said against the post at all.*
* I would like to know what happened. Why “a mean of expression” has been extended to “what is right or what is wrong?”
*i know mass produced chicken meat, on some large poultry farms, the chickens are electrocuted until the heart stops (is this Jhatka as well?...a chicken can be electrocuted in about 9-20 seconds?some farms use CO2some farms have a metal rod that they shoot into the head of the cow killing it instantly... then they have to drain the blood (open the carotid arteries and let it drain using gravity)
*Good information, interested ones can use it
*complete decapitation is never done on larger animals like cows:
*Raj Khalsa ji, I think is not interested in Beef business*
  You need to upgrade your Flash Player
*Thanks for posting,  I have no interest to see it( if it is posted for general view, thanks), I am just using my right to ignore.*
  who defines how quick death should be?
*I watched both Halaal and jhatka events, I felt in Halaal, animal dies slowly, may be enduring more pain but I am not certain as  I am not expert in this area. Thanks for sharing your knowledge on this with readers, so nice of you sinister ji !! *


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## Sinister (Aug 9, 2008)

OH PK70 ji…Stop being such a vegetarian! :u)::ice::}{}{}:
I was less than 7 when I watched my first meal being slaughtered…and look how nice and normal I turned out! :shock:



We are talking about the promotion of jhatka

All I am asking is; what is jhatka? (this is directed towards Raj Khalsa)

If Jhatka meat is something that involves decapitation…then sikh hunters cannot hunt…sikh fishermen cannot fish. Because hunting is done with bow and quiver, or a 12 gauge … The chances of you catching prey alive and unharmed and then performing jhatka is slim.

That means Jhatka can only be performed on domesticated animals. 

What happens to the populations that hunt for a living?

So, did the guru say Jhatka is the way to go…or can we use common sense here to fill in the blanks. 

Raj Khalsa ji, I take the easy road out: “ignorance is bliss”
Or you could live by another code of conduct:
“if you want something done right, do it yourself” (this requires way to much effort…and I am way too lazy to deal with it)
Or
You could stick to daal 

but I see where you are coming from...there has to be a better way for people tell how humanely the meat reached market

cheers


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 9, 2008)

"humanely killed"

the biggest oxy{censored} !!


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 9, 2008)

<<For all our sensitive veers ..i think when a child sees this picture ..this will be a boon in disguise..since the child will have questions ..(are we afraid of those questions by the way ?) This picture might promote vegeterianism in that child if he/she knows how this works ...and gets affected by slaughter..>>

tell this and make porno legal


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## Sinister (Aug 10, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> "humanely killed"
> 
> the biggest oxy{censored} !!


 
HA! the words "humane killing" is not an oxy{censored} ... its a veridical paradox :u):

If God didn't want us to eat animals he wouldn't have made them out of meat.


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## dalsingh (Aug 10, 2008)

Guys I am a moderator here and I feel like I have to make this point.

Jhatka is a very old nihung tradition. Jhatka is allowed according to the Akal Takhat rehat maryada. Although I can understand the feelings of some about the picture, denying jhatka is denying a part of Sikh heritage. 

I remember a very similar situation to this one in the past. I also recall an important point made by a vegetarian Singh. He said he was saddened by some peoples reaction to images such as these because if Sikhs ever needed to go to war they would see infinitely worse than this. If their heart is trembling at a mere picture or video of jhatka taking place, would such people be able to hack grim realities we may have to face. Our ancestors had to endure watching other Sikhs being horrifically tortured in front of their face and showed composure. We should be able to do the same watching jhatka.

This is why I am not in favour of removing the image. The ultimate decision is not mine alone but I thought I would like to share my opinion with you all. 

Personally I respect the opinion of both meat eating and vegetarian Sikhs but lets have a calm, level headed and realistic perspective on this.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 10, 2008)

i am not sure if the real thing gets into the head of people who want to jump up and make it a veggie/ non veggie issue.

I rarely make a long post, but i think this topic and assertions being made here force my hand nee fingers.

so the rant starts...............

i or anyone else who objected never said anything about it hurting veggie sentiments...so please give it a break

It was Mr. Raj Khalsa who put it as veggie/ non veggie issue.

i pointed out the picture as "shocking", no where i mentioned my affiliations as sanatan sikh or namdhari or whatever that lead to me being labelled as vegetarian/sect follower...trust me i am none.

this is internet and as PK ji mentioned, this forum is accessed by people of all ages who come to seek more information about sikhism

for mods:

do you want to get this website filtered out because of "cruelty" violence filters that most of the home children security products put in?

i understand that it can be webpage specific, but filter sittings can be put to disallow any website with such content.

on one hand we talk about promoting sikhism with children and on other we want to show them these pictures?

this is a bit of....what to say....duality in action ?

back to sinister ji

you saw an animal being killed when u were 7, you yourself give a certificate of being normal to urself 

this is a bit odd 

or may i call that you might be an exception.

research has shown that child's mind is very creative and can transform the images it sees and mingle it with imagination to create any kind of make beleive scenarios.

whereas you came out unscathed from the incident, there are many cases of trauma in children from such sightings.

-------

to Dal veerji

i understand that Jhatka has historic significance, but a picture does not explain it. This picture was irrelevant to the topic and crude.

nor does seeing an animal being killed make one brave. it is akin to saying that watching porno makes one a great lover....does it?

please do not use the corollary of going to war with visiting a forum.

children who might be visiting this website will NOT go to war.

let them face this when their minds are ready for it.

finally,

i leave it to the moderators and above all, thoughtfulness of Mr. Raj Khalsa to THINK.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 10, 2008)

Verdical paradox?

how is this statement non-dual?

what is the apparent fallacy?

What is the truth?

Killing is not Humane and hence it is classified as oxy{censored}


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## dalsingh (Aug 10, 2008)

> i understand that Jhatka has historic significance, but a picture does not explain it. This picture was irrelevant to the topic and crude.
> 
> nor does seeing an animal being killed make one brave. it is akin to saying that watching porno makes one a great lover....does it?
> 
> ...



Amar veer ji

I can see this is a very emotive issue for you. 

I have to disagree and say the picture itself is directly related to the topic.

I don't understand your use of analogy between the use of porno and looking at the jhatka image. My point was about feint heartedness amongst Sikhs. Death is a reality around us. A young child will see meat around when they are at school and visiting a supermarket with their parents.  

You do have a point about children you may become traumatised by the image. I think this boils down to upbringing and I know people who have been brought up on farms in the UK, where they become pretty much made aware of the deaths of livestock from a young age, turn out OK. Some parents may well follow a policy of heavily shielding children from such realities - some less so. Myself, I am against the sanitisation of the meat process and feel people SHOULD be exposed to the slaughter, so they can make a decision on the matter. Other wise they see no link between what has to go on and what they see on their plate. 

Ultimately I'm not fussed about the image and will gladly accept any decision one way or another. 

I can tell this may turn into another debacle with someone becoming inconsolably upset. We all have to live with views and perspectives that are not in agreement with our own folks. Lets keep it calm and open minded.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 10, 2008)

Gurfateh

Das will give a Sakhi from Sau Sakhi.When Shameer was given a food already used by Guru,he though to take it to his family so that all will use.His maternal Uncle reminded him that he is peer(muslim holy men) worshipper so should not eat Jhatka.He did not eat and later when Guru asks him he became perhaps regretfull(das has only given a portion of the story).


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 10, 2008)

<<I don't understand your use of analogy between the use of porno and looking at the jhatka image. My point was about feint heartedness amongst Sikhs. Death is a reality around us. A young child will see meat around when they are at school and visiting a supermarket with their parents. 

You do have a point about children you may become traumatised by the image. I think this boils down to upbringing and I know people who have been brought up on farms in the UK, where they become pretty much made aware of the deaths of livestock from a young age, turn out OK. Some parents may well follow a policy of heavily shielding children from such realities - some less so. Myself, I am against the sanitisation of the meat process and feel people SHOULD be exposed to the slaughter, so they can make a decision on the matter. Other wise they see no link between what has to go on and what they see on their plate. >>

Dal ji

showing violence is not a way to inculcate understanding of death and danger

same way as showing bloodbath in movies is not a way of educating children that what lies in battlefields

same way as showing porno is not a way of sex education and what happens in beds

same way as showing a goat being beheaded is not a way of showing how the food came to them

the point i am making is that there are ways to convey the message.

the method of using a picture to promote/dissuade jhatka is as absurd as the ones i mentioned below

---- don't worry, i am not the one to take it to my heart


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 10, 2008)

Gurfateh

Few more inputs.
1) in Areas where we have Halal only,we can kill animal bird ourselves.So if Bhai Raj visit Delhi again or das goes to Indore Das will teach him how to carry out Jhataka.
2)It is not to do with Nihungs only. other grups are SInghs of Deccan and Assam/Kablis/Iranis/Bhatras/Sikalkars/Labanas/Ranghretas.They have langer of Jhataka also.
3)If some one being a Sikh is afraid of seing animal being killed or not sharing the food with those amritdharis who eat meat.Das recomends them  as per Nihung treditions to join Radha Swamis or Dera Sacha Sauda.
4)As per Bebeck in nihungs also taking meat is not encouraged,yet that is more to do with Dera Dars who do not work.For outcaste/tribals,who work as lot and are acutal sikhs since making of Khalsa PAnth.They need meat as food,to repair the broken muscle due to the heavy labour or for instant source of enregy.
5)If das accuses anti Dasham Granth Sahib guys are emblam bearer of Bhappaism as they could not understand the mental state of outcaste(which Tenth Master understood well as he had both Bhai Jaita and Sangta as his childhood play mates at Patna Sahib),ritualistic Jathas or Sants,totaly oblivious to living conditions of outcastes/poors talk of anti meat and other ritualism and that is best example of jattism(as being from the family jaats on paternal side das is aware that meat is big no in them due to thier being Vaisya).Such pagan  thing is not acceptalbe.

LAstly Tenth Master said and is recorded in Sau Sakhi.Mam Sikh Mas Khai Dij Nahi.It is my Sikh who eats meat and Brahmins do not.(Das is ready to tell the whole stroy about this).
6)If some one does not eat meat,he/she has a full right to not to eat and propogate.But it is right for meat eater to keep his views also.
7) we can have fish and pork also packaged as both can never be halaled.
8)das found no prolbem to us non halal beef while he was in action.(There are three instance in Shri Dasham Granth Sahib,where sacrifce of cow or hunt is given).Only thing is that is we want to replace petrolium with animal dung fuel,then there could be reason to protect the cow.Yet for Sikhs not eating beef is not a religeous duty as such.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 10, 2008)

here's how i think parents should introduce meat to children:

li'l one - dad! what's that stuff on the shelves?
me- its called meat
li'l one - do people eat it?
me - yes they do, it is a very common food for a majority of people
li'l one - where does it come from?
me ( now li'l one is curious) - see, meat is actually a dead animal's body parts, the animal ws killed and these are its body parts
li'l one - so, animals like?
me - sheep, chicken, cows...
li'l one - how do they kill?
me - i promise to show it to you one day

now..

the kid hasbeen introduced to the concept. there is still no instant image of savagry and blood

when time is right, i would take li'l one to any beef/chicken processing center

show how it is cut and packed.

:whisling:

but i know, in days of youtube, the li'l one will forward me a cool video of a cow being killed


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 10, 2008)

Gurfateh


amarsanghera said:


> <<I don't understand your use of analogy between the use of porno and looking at the jhatka image. My point was about feint heartedness amongst Sikhs. Death is a reality around us. A young child will see meat around when they are at school and visiting a supermarket with their parents.
> 
> You do have a point about children you may become traumatised by the image. I think this boils down to upbringing and I know people who have been brought up on farms in the UK, where they become pretty much made aware of the deaths of livestock from a young age, turn out OK. Some parents may well follow a policy of heavily shielding children from such realities - some less so. Myself, I am against the sanitisation of the meat process and feel people SHOULD be exposed to the slaughter, so they can make a decision on the matter. Other wise they see no link between what has to go on and what they see on their plate. >>
> 
> ...


 
Bro,

We are the martial faith,when no one was allowed to eat animal killed by self and only Muslims were allowed to kill the animal.At that time we were given an oppertunity to see the blood bath and emulate the spirit of killer instinct.

So Ham to Jane Tool Tarhakari,Karad Hath Mai Kabhi Na PAkri.

As a Maar(Serpant),Nihung(Crocodiles)Singh(lion) we are the predators.On the top of the piramid.Less is number yet to rule.So we could teach our children since childhood how to kill the animal.WE do it in Nihungs and Treditional and outcaste communities.

We have specailists in Indian,US and UK troops goven traingin to survive on soup of the crow or rats or snakes.For killer instincts the dummy we shoot,we have artificial blood coming out of them.Or water melon is shot in some illegal traing of militia.So

Meat has nothing to do with brevery but with ruthlessness and cruckidness,which are more important in present day warfares.

Our eating meat makes us disticnt with native pagans of India as our eating is not govened by any days or any types.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 10, 2008)

Gurfateh


amarsanghera said:


> here's how i think parents should introduce meat to children:
> 
> li'l one - dad! what's that stuff on the shelves?
> me- its called meat
> ...


Bhai,

dead Animal is one which dies by age or ailment and killed animal are "killed" and not "dead" in Islam dead animal is not enacouaged to be eaten in normal circumstances.

Rattan Singh Bhangu quoting Guru writes Jhatka Kar Ke Bakra Khana Kuthe Murdar Nerh Na Jana.Murdar stands for dead animal and Nihungs ussulay do not eat them.

Javakan De Dill Chirhi Warge Na Banaye.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 10, 2008)

<<dead Animal is one which dies by age or ailment and killed animal are "killed" and not "dead" in Islam dead animal is not enacouaged to be eaten in normal circumstances.

Rattan Singh Bhangu quoting Guru writes Jhatka Kar Ke Bakra Khana Kuthe Murdar Nerh Na Jana.Murdar stands for dead animal and Nihungs ussulay do not eat them.

Javakan De Dill Chirhi Warge Na Banaye.>>

vijaydeep ji

what happens when something is killed?...it is called DEAD....pls look up dictionary for the meanings

LOL

pls gimme a break and stop throwing the stuff we have been listening to for quite long. If Rattan Singh Bhangu knew so much, why didn't he tell more abt something useful?

and your points about making kids heart like chiri dil !!

there are many links to people being beheaded, women being stoned and brains blown off at point blank..... please feel free to show them to your children and make the "sher" dil.

but my point is that this is a public webpage without any checks to whether a child is visiting it or not.

in current legal understanding, while showing such pictures on a website, a graphic content warning is mandatory.

i have tried to explain it in milder ways, but your illogical comments are forcing me to be more forthright.

i see it as a serious infringement of internet laws, depending on where the website is registered and hosted.

once again, it leave it to saner judgements


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## dalsingh (Aug 10, 2008)

Amar



> same way as showing bloodbath in movies is not a way of educating children that what lies in battlefields



I think you should open your eyes to the good old US of A.This is EXACTLY what they use to create macho canon fodder. That is why you have so many Rambos and Commandos running around. 

Amar, strangely the other day my seven year old nephew was at the gurdwara and was looking at the pictures on the wall. If you've grown up Sikh you may know that we have pictures of shaheeds going through the most horrendous torture openly visible where kids can clearly see them. Personally if anything is going to traumatise the kids I would have thought it would be the images of Singhs getting their heads scraped off, hacked limb by limb and broken on wheels. Not to mention babies getting speared etc. I know these things were never hidden from me when young. So I would say the goat beheading is relatively tame compared to that.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 10, 2008)

Gurfateh


Akal made Human better then Animal equating human with animal may not work well in us by the way adlof hitler was veggi.

Bhangu has writtan great lot of good things,but we must know Braj dialect to be writtan in Gurmukhi script say how Five beloved Sikhs made Dehdhari Guru Gulaba Khatri eat a humble pie.

Shaheedi of great Singhs during the period of Misls das does not think as useless.

Coming back to the term dead ie murde in Farsi,Mrit in Sanskrit and killed Kushte shud in Farsi and Hat/hatahat in Sanskrit.So das thinks that origional texts of us are not in English.Then further term Pal Hat Khaye Na Turk Ka(Bhai Daya Singh Rahit Nammah).

Das does not want brave Sikhs like Bhai Fauja Singh Ji Babber or Sant Jarnail Singh Ji of Bhindran,at present we need mercyless and ruthless and cunning Sikhs.Present days wars are not won by bravery but by mind.

Akal Bless.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 10, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Well, what if those butchers kill slowly but don't say "the words"?



Veer Ji,

we are NOT concerned with...what words are said/not said....how "loudly"/silently..mumbled/clearly pronounced/said in arabic or urdu or punjabi...etc etc etc etc... what the Sikh Rehat Maryada BANS..is "HALLAL"..mussalmani treekeh naal baniiaah hoya maas - RITUALISED slaughtered meat that is "halal" for Muslims and Kosher for Jews..and "Sanctified" for HINDUS..(dewi maa de charna te charriah hoya maas/parshaad)...YES RIGHT..ALL "RITUALISED" meat is *NOT for US*.

That is as clear as clear can be.

I have heard people telling me...Gyani ji..the "words" were actually not said...as by a person..BUT coming out of Speakers/sound system cd player...tape..etc....or the person didnt know..so he was just mumbling...not clearly saying..couldnt be heard...blah blah blah.....SO WHAT ?? Are we instructed to "judge" whether the butcher is a practising muslim..whjether he really knows the kalma..whetehr he is just mumbling..wahtever...in MALAYSIA...the killing chain is SO FAST....the butchers actually hold records like say..12000 chickens per hour..or even 30,000 chickens per hour...they just SLIT slit slit slit....as the chickens spin along on a fast belt...hanging upside down in front of the butcher....while the "kalmas" are from speakers on the walls...but all this is acepted as hallal by everyone....and stamped "hallal" by the authorities... Muslim butchers are sent to Australian slaughterhouses to do the same thing to cows sheep etc....so that beef/lamb from australia cna be stamped "hallal" !!!.....since it is the LAW..many chinese butchers just employ any "muslim"..be it Bngaldeshi/Indonesian etc to kill chickens so that they dont run foul of the "hallal law...i have personally seen many of these have no time to "read" anything...working conditions are so bad...they just slit throats as fast as they can...and throw the still struggling chicken into the drum machine to boiling water to remove the feathers etc......so "technically" speaking...its all ???? but who cares ?? Its simply impossible to actually follow all the procedures....i know it they know it..everyone knows it...

As for "Sikhs"....I seen every one "knows" that we cannot eat "BEEF" (supposedly) and any so called Sikh will recoil with horror if anyone says they ate beefburger...HOW CAN YOU..arent you a SIKH ??? BUT they happily consume chicken burgers even though these are certified HALLAL !!! The SRM clealry mentions Hallal..BUT NOT "BEEF"..yet 110% "sikhs" apparently know and avoid beef..BUT not hallal ??? Who taught them beef is banned for SIKHS ?? saadhs..sants..gyanis..who ?? SRM..Damadmai taksaal maryada ??
These  "Sikhs"....same also happily Consume ALCOHOL and Six Packs...by the DOZENS....even though the SRM gain CLEARLY BANNS ALCOHOL/DRUGS.....and no saadh/sant/etc ever talks about Alcohol....it will affect their "goluck" collections !!!

SADLY.."religion" as we know it is no more....its all based on ones personal preferences..and people will justify....find excuses...( 100 and one)..etc etc..every one draws the line wherever he/she wants to....the GURU's LINE no longer exists for MOST.

Gyani JS:ice:


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## pk70 (Aug 10, 2008)

I remember a very similar situation to this one in the past. I also recall an important point made by a vegetarian Singh. He said he was saddened by some peoples reaction to images such as these because if Sikhs ever needed to go to war they would see infinitely worse than this. If their heart is trembling at a mere picture or video of jhatka taking place, would such people be able to hack grim realities we may have to face.( quote dalkhalsa)
*Dalkhalsa ji
 With all due respect, I have to say that it is sad to read your views because, instead of reading all, you just picked up one part" to remove" and came with new assumption" if we needed to go to war...." there is one word there where I posted a request, that is" children" If you believe, showing children jhatka event, can make them warrior, you have no inkling" what is child psychology is, don't think, my comment is harsh but that is what your comments come down to.* *I think snister ji defended  picture in better way even better than who posted it. Killing an animal doesn't make you brave, same guys who kill goats when face a lion, even being far away their trembling of legs doesnt stop. Give better reason at least please.
Sikh jhatka Heritage! I just can smile on this word! I would refrain from commenting on it because it can get ugly.
"*but my point is that this is a public webpage without any checks to whether a child is visiting it or not."( quote amarsangheraJi)
*Think about it sher dil guys!!!!!!!
To MOD, as suggested by amar ji, MOD should come up with certain warnings for the children at least.
*


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 10, 2008)

<<Amar, strangely the other day my seven year old nephew was at the gurdwara and was looking at the pictures on the wall. If you've grown up Sikh you may know that we have pictures of shaheeds going through the most horrendous torture openly visible where kids can clearly see them. Personally if anything is going to traumatise the kids I would have thought it would be the images of Singhs getting their heads scraped off, hacked limb by limb and broken on wheels. Not to mention babies getting speared etc. I know these things were never hidden from me when young. So I would say the goat beheading is relatively tame compared to that.>>

Dal veerji

thankfully for me, i never saw those picture where i grew up. :happy:

and i wouldn't get my children to see those pictures till they are ready for it.

Good luck to you.


<<Akal made Human better then Animal equating human with animal may not work well in us by the way adlof hitler was veggi.>>

what makes you think so?

Please read SGGS carefully. All are God's creation and stop mixing the Biblical thoughts of God made Man and the world for Man to enjoy 


This never was a point of being a veggie or not...i don't understand why you equate my posts with vegetarianism...i am almost on the point of banging my head on the keyboard !!!:inca:

<<Coming back to the term dead ie murde in Farsi,Mrit in Sanskrit and killed Kushte shud in Farsi and Hat/hatahat in Sanskrit.So das thinks that origional texts of us are not in English.Then further term Pal Hat Khaye Na Turk Ka(Bhai Daya Singh Rahit Nammah).>>

you still don't get it do you?

Being DEAD is an end state, being killed by external force or internal decomposure are processes.

language does not change what i said. what is DEAD is DEAD.  Please don't expect me to write sanskrit on english/punjabi forum.

and frankly from my side, i don't read rehitnamas 

<<Das does not want brave Sikhs like Bhai Fauja Singh Ji Babber or Sant Jarnail Singh Ji of Bhindran,at present we need mercyless and ruthless and cunning Sikhs.Present days wars are not won by bravery but by mind.>>>

merciless, ruthless and cunning...well that sounds like Adolf Hitler to me.

We don't need wars or any of the "brave" men you mentioned.

We just need to give "love" a chance.


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## Sinister (Aug 10, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> Verdical paradox?
> 
> how is this statement non-dual?
> 
> ...


 
Killing for humane reasons exists, therefore the process of killing can also be humane…which is why it is a veridical paradox and not an oxy{censored}. 

The very fact that the level of suffering can be measured on scale is proof that the concept of humane killing exists…which is why it is not an oxy{censored} but a veridical paradox.

Learn the linguistics



amarsanghera said:


> merciless, ruthless and cunning...well that sounds like Adolf Hitler to me.
> 
> We don't need wars or any of the "brave" men you mentioned.
> 
> We just need to give "love" a chance.


 


HA! Godwin’s Law wins DAY!
For arguments sake, you really are acting beyond the realm of rationality and leaning towards borderline Hippie. If anything merciless, ruthless and cunning sound like Darwinian properties to me.

When people speak in the context of love being a higher emotional state than the other emotions, I die a little inside. 
You cannot learn to love without learning to hate! (vice-versa)

Thus, You cannot have peace without fight (passive or agressive resistance) (another veridical paradox)

At your local gurudawara, i bet you see swords and other shastars (if not the other elaborate and sub-par works of arts that depict violence)...how would explain these to your children?...should these be banned as well? should we tear down all the statues at Mehtiana Sahib, because it might offend the children? (i was young when i visited this gurudawara...and children enjoy it the most).
Violence is a reality...that parents have to put up with

children should not be on the internet anyways without proper supervision.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 10, 2008)

<<Killing for humane reasons exists, therefore the process of killing can also be humane>>

can't believe that you state that end objective decides the nature of the process

Process is as important as the end

please do not give bookish insights 

wonderful logic!!!

<<HA! Godwin’s Law wins DAY!
For arguments sake, you really are acting beyond the realm of rationality and leaning towards borderline Hippie >>

you need a weed bro 

relax and come down from the academic pedestral

read who brought in hitler...it was contextual

<<When people speak in the context of love being a higher emotional state than the other emotions, I die a little inside. 
You cannot learn to love without learning to hate! (vice-versa)

Thus, You cannot have peace without fight (passive or agressive resistance) (another veridical paradox)>>

accepting the exsitence of opposite doesnot alter the desired state...

<<At your local gurudawara i bet you see swords and other shastars (if not the other elaborate and sub-par works of art)...how would explain these to your children...should these banned as well? should we tear down all the statues at Mehtiana Sahib, because it might offend the children? (i was young when i visited this gurudawara...and children enjoy it the most).
Violence is a reality...the sooner children learn that...the more sane and careful they are.>>

Gurudwara.. LOL

i do't want to answer why you enjoyed it or why i never enjoyed it...we are different...

if violence is reality, non violence is also a reality.


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## Sinister (Aug 10, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> <<Killing for humane reasons exists, therefore the process of killing can also be humane>>
> 
> can't believe that you state that end objective decides the nature of the process
> 
> ...


 
OH, how convinient, a selective debate, you left out my second proof that Humane treatment exists on a gradient! (it was the punchline)...a retort should be a complete one...dont get sloppy on me.




amarsanghera said:


> you need a weed bro





amarsanghera said:


> relax and come down from the academic pedestral
> 
> read who brought in hitler...it was contextual


 
actually i ran out of my stash this morning :{;o:...im quite comfortable on my academic pedestal...i think ill stay up here a little longer.






amarsanghera said:


> accepting the exsitence of opposite doesnot alter the desired state...


 
hmmm ... think about that...desired states love to change





amarsanghera said:


> Gurudwara.. LOL
> 
> i do't want to answer why you enjoyed it or why i never enjoyed it...we are different...
> 
> if violence is reality, non violence is also a reality.


 
thats where you are wrong...you just like to pretend you are different. :wink:

and now we are so off topic that the picture doesnt even matter to you anymore...my objective is completed! (If I am not mistaken I think you must be experiencing a change in desire?)

if violence is reality, non violence is also a reality.
now you're getting it...the state of violence cannot exist without non-violence and the sate of non-violence is meaningless without a state of violence. YING and the YANG


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## dalsingh (Aug 10, 2008)

I always thought that seeing those pictures in the Gurdwaray were part and parcel of a Sikh upbringing. Sanghera, I'm surprised you never saw them growing up. 

Maybe that is why you are so sensitive about all this?


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## dalsingh (Aug 10, 2008)

> Sinister: actually i ran out of my stash this morning :{;o:..



What sort of stash would this be..........not indulging in the old bhang/sukha are we mate? lol


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## pk70 (Aug 10, 2008)

Javakan De Dill Chirhi Warge Na Banaye.( quote Vijaydeep Singh ji)


*Vijaydeep Singh ji,*
* Though I enjoyed posts by you in the past, I am totally puzzled what are you trying to say here?*
*Are you saying “to become brave, or to fight a battle, one needs to learn do Jhatka?”*
*Should we convey this exceptional strategy to Military personnel to warn them what they are missing?*
*Or you are saying “ those who are trying to say that children must be kept in mind while posting all stuff on this site, are having “ chiri varge dil,” and” who enjoy those pictures of animal slaughtering get automatically “ magical push” to turn into sher dil?”  Why did I witness these jatka doers displaying a jackal’s show while in conflict? A lot of stuff given and presented in Gurdawaras has no alignment with Gurbani teachings; taking it a base to call a legitimate inspiration for either to children or adults is questionable in context of Gurmatt. In Zafarnama Sahib defines valid reason of becoming armed, so don’t try to give new meanings to being “ Khalsa” First of all, issue was not “ jhatka, or dead or how to inspire kids to become warriors or to eate meat or not; actually issue was very simple” to keep  children in mind while posting all kind of stuff on this site”. *

  When people speak in the context of love being a higher emotional state than the other emotions, I die a little inside. [/FONT]
You cannot learn to love without learning to hate! (vice-versa)( quote sinister ji)[/FONT]
Not exactly, if one only learns to love, he/she doesn’t even need to learn to hate. A friend of mine who is a Christian, once I confronted him to ignore those people totally who offended him openly instead of smiling again with them as they wish so. His reply hit me hard” Singh, I cannot hate, I just don’t know how to hate, Mom taught me otherwise” You may call him an alien but I understood the factor working in his behavior, he never learnt” hating” and unlike you say” he doesn’t need it to love” Every thing is not round.[/FONT]


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 10, 2008)

<<OH, how convinient, a selective debate, you left out my second proof that Humane treatment exists on a gradient! (it was the punchline)...a retort should be a complete one...dont get sloppy on me.>>
is there something called humane rape?

get the point?

<<and now we are so off topic that the picture doesnt even matter to you anymore...my objective is completed! (If I am not mistaken I think you must be experiencing a change in desire?)

if violence is reality, non violence is also a reality.
now you're getting it...the state of violence cannot exist without non-violence and the sate of non-violence is meaningless without a state of violence. YING and the YANG>>


Sinister, though you tried hard, but getting under my skin is wee bit tougher than other members 

world viewed with filtered glases is never same for two people, hence the debate will never be resolved.

yours to you, mine to me


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## dalsingh (Aug 10, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> <<I always thought that seeing those pictures in the Gurdwaray were part and parcel of a Sikh upbringing. Sanghera, I'm surprised you never saw them growing up.
> 
> Maybe that is why you are so sensitive about all this?>>
> 
> ...



Sikh art is a vehicle for transmitting history and ideals. Almost every gurdwara I have been to has that type of art. 

You said you are not sure of how many Gurdwaras have such art in Panjab. From my recollection, a fair few. Also consider the fact that most of the art itself is created in Panjab itself. Kirpal Singh was a prominent artist whose art adorns the Sikh Museum attached to the Golden temple. Have a look at his work at this site.

Untitled Document


His son still carries on the artist tradition:

Jarnail Singh Artist, Original Paintings and portraits,



Most Sikhs I know grew up around such images. That is why I referred to them as part and parcel of growing up Sikh for many of us. The images can be pretty graphic but seems to do no harm.













This is just to remind us of what people had to go through for Sikhism to be here. 







But I agree in pushing for some sort of warning for youngsters.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 10, 2008)

I "GREW UP" on those pictures....as my mum led us in our DAILY ARDASS twice a day....
our Favourite kavita used to be....:AAraa ji lagda piayara..sees nu cheerdaah....(Bhai Mati Dass Ji being sawn alive in front of Guru teg bahdur Ji Sahib)
"Kesh smabhaal sikha..kesh smabhaal oyeh..lootteh gayeh laal tereh..looteh gayeh laaloyeh....(Bhai Taru SINGH being scalped alive )......dad would discuss daily these...how the SINGHANNIAH in Mir Manuus prison had parts of their babies put around their necks..how the babies were slaughtered by being thrown into the air and speared alive...How the 5 year old Sahibzadah Fateh Singh and the 7 year old Zorawar Singh were standing TALL in the wall being bricked up alive and refusing to convert...etc etc etc..and how the elder brothers Ajit Singh and Jhujaar Singh fought agaisnt the mughals armies...just 13 and 15 years old youngsters...not even asking for water !!! the sight of Guru teg bahadur Jis HEAD beign shown to the 9 year old CHILD..Gobind Rai..and Gobind rai hugging the bearer of it to his chest and saying Ranghreteh GURU KE BETTEH.....

ARDASS and our HISTORY came ALIVE !!! DAILY. I made SURE this same experience is being shared by ALL my Gurbani/history/punjabi classes....and the "children" attending are from 3 years onwards....How else can a 5 YEAR OLD "kiddie" UNDERSTAND WHY ZORAWAR SINGH did what he did in SIRHIND ?? Should I WAIT for them to "GROW UP"....and then only expose them to ZORAWAR SINGH ?? maybe Zorawar Singh did it all "wrong"..he should have 'converted"..waited until he was older..and then..."lived"....... to die another day ??" Oh YES i have heard some of my students saying that......Zorawar Singh should have "pretended to convert...to save his life..and THEN when older...change back to Sikhi,,,and FIGHT the Mughals !!!!

No wonder so many "sikhs" are converting...not knowing anything about SIKHI/History/ardass.... we wait for them to "grow up"....and by then its TOO LATE...they are not interested any more !!!

AM I a "fanatic".."cruel and shocking"..NO i dont think so...to me the DAILY ARDASS is as GRAPHIC as can be....the words tell a Story of FACT..and we must live with it....or "pretend" it just empty "words"...to be said by the GRANTHI..while we day dream about the fantastic langgar awaiting us downstairs.....eat and be Merry....and hope the Granthi finishes with the ...boring ardass fast....

Lots of people have "problems" with the pictures of the MODERN SHAHEEDS of 1984 and after....hanging on Gurdwara Walls..being paraded in Nagar kirtans.... to many even the GRAPHIC ARDASS is shocking/repulsive/cruel/...maybe we should CENSOR the wordings..and REMOVE all references to charkhhrraian te cherreh, band band kataeh..khoprian utarian..jiondeh sarreh gayeh....that sounds repulsive/shocking ??...NO JI..I dont subscribe to "shutting out...or burying my head in Liberal Sands....or keeping the "youngsters" shielded from our HISTORY/our TRADITIONS...

Any particular reason as to WHY..from 1469-1849....NOT a SINGLE "SIKH" has been indentified as having CONVERTED/lied/cut his/her hair etc to LIVE...rather than DIE for his/her FAITH. When each Sikh head was worth RS 80 ?? no sikh ever "saved" his head ??look at the same "SIKHS"....after the 1900's...and the Slide towards the DEPTHS..NOW ???? Even Children as young as 5 rather DIE than run away..as cowards..... BUT NOW..GROWN MEN and women.....are cutting hair..in droves..by the MILLIONS...are we "better...craftier...smarter...than all those who DIED then ?? Do we "know" something they DIDNT ?? Do our children know something Zorawar Singh didnt know way back in SIRHIND ?? are we better "parents" than Guru Gobind Singh ??...Hard hitting questions..these..highly embarrassing too....but I ask them DAILY and will continue to ask them of thsoe who come to me...for "ANSWERS"....Gyani ji..why doesnt my teenage daughter..not listen to me..why she wants to marry that muslim guy from pakistan....why my teenage son is so rebellious..wnats to smoke pot..and play in gangs...why my grandson doesnt want to do any homework but watch TV all day..etc etc

 WE look like the same "SIKHS".....BUT...after the 1960's...and the Slide towards the DEPTHS..NOW accelerating????

There may be lots of different REASONS..sociological..economic..environment..etc etc etc..I know..but no one cna DENY that LOSING TOUCH with our PAST is also one contributing factor...and the FASTER we TOUCH BASE..as young as possible..the better it turns out (at least for me..my siblings..my students..as far as I know)

Warm regards to all

Gyani JS:yes:


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## Sinister (Aug 10, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> Sinister, though you tried hard, but getting under my skin is wee bit tougher than other members
> 
> world viewed with filtered glases is never same for two people, hence the debate will never be resolved.
> 
> yours to you, mine to me


 
Stick to your small witty posts Mr. Sanghera…that way you cant make mistakes:

Lemme go to your absurd levels of retort and turn them around

Were the people who were killed by the 10th guru killed inhumanely?
Are you willing to sit there in front of your computer screen and judge your Guru’s actions as inhumane?
Was Guru Gobind Singh Participating Inhumane actions when he was on the battle field?

Gimme a break…I smell hypocrisy (simply from the lack of consistency)

Killing is not inhumane (all the time)…if you believe it is, then you must also believe that guru’s were inhumane (or their sons were) or their actions were

*THUS:*
*Humane Killing is not an oxy{censored} it’s a veridical paradox! *

Hows that for penetrating skin? 
im like a bad case of the Herpes...the more you rub me...the more uncomfortable you'll get.


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## pk70 (Aug 10, 2008)

ARDASS and our HISTORY came ALIVE !!! DAILY. I made SURE this same experience is being shared by ALL my Gurbani/history/punjabi classes....and the "children" attending are from 3 years onwards....How else can a 5 YEAR OLD "kiddie" UNDERSTAND WHY ZORAWAR SINGH did what he did in SIRHIND ?? Should I WAIT for them to "GROW UP"....and then only expose them to ZORAWAR SINGH ?? maybe Zorawar Singh did it all "wrong"..he should have 'converted"..waited until he was older..and then..."lived"....... to die another day ??" Oh YES i have heard some of my students saying that......Zorawar Singh should have "pretended to convert...to save his life..and THEN when older...change back to Sikhi,,,and FIGHT the Mughals !!!!

*Respected Gyani Jarnail Singh ji,*
*What are you doing? What are you thinking? Are you trying to prove that those pictures, the songs and graphic contents in the ardaas, couldn’t work or did work? Both way you are dead wrong. If it worked then in the following statement of yours, you are contradicting.*

  “Any particular reason as to WHY..from 1469-1849....NOT a SINGLE "Sikh" has been indentified as having CONVERTED/lied/cut his/her hair etc to LIVE...rather than DIE for his/her FAITH.” 
*If it didn’t, then what is the use of it, or why it couldn’t convey the message? Answer is not in their( pictures and graphic words) being there but numerous events, changes and different kind of agendas( as you have admitted slightly) played well here in this context. I am pretty much sure, Guru Gobind Singh ji’s sons were not raised on display of such pictures, there were many factors in their bringing up’ lack of those things cannot be attached to the reasons you are pointing out here. How they faced tortures can be taught without showing what you guys have been advocating. Three years old doesn’t need to get converted by third party as he grows up now, these are different times; how children slip out, there are numerous reasons and none of them can be attached to” those are not seeing how our ancestors and their children bravely faced tortures”. Wouldn’t it be better to see all this when they are over some age; tenth Master’s Sahibzadas were put into that situations by the circumstances; I wonder why these stories are brought up here just to justify a picture of slaughtering of an animal!!*


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## Sinister (Aug 10, 2008)

dalsingh said:


> What sort of stash would this be..........not indulging in the old bhang/sukha are we mate? lol


 

no comment :shifty:


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## Sinister (Aug 10, 2008)

pk70 said:


> Not exactly, if one only learns to love, he/she doesn’t even need to learn to hate. A friend of mine who is a Christian, once I confronted him to ignore those people totally who offended him openly instead of smiling again with them as they wish so. His reply hit me hard” Singh, I cannot hate, I just don’t know how to hate, Mom taught me otherwise” You may call him an alien but I understood the factor working in his behavior, he never learnt” hating” and unlike you say” he doesn’t need it to love” Every thing is not round.[/FONT]


 
Consider that one incident of restraint does not lead to the conclusion that he is void of the feeling of disgust, dislike and hatred. (too simple of an analysis)
or
your freind may be psychologically unsound


having no dislikes/hatereds is not even a life worth living...same goes for love. 

In math it would be like having the plus sign without the negative sign...no problems would work because no one can deduce the true value of an integer

certainly a flawed way of living your life

cheers


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## pk70 (Aug 11, 2008)

“Consider that one incident of restraint does not lead to the conclusion that he is void of the feeling of disgust, dislike and hatred. (too simple of an analysis)[/FONT]
or[/FONT]
your freind may be psychologically unsound[/FONT]
having no dislikes/hatereds is not even a life worth living...same goes for love” ! Quote Sinister Ji )[/FONT]
   [/FONT]
That is the only analysis people give when they are locked out because of their hyper rationality. In spiritual terms, it is called progression of a soul; many of the rational worlds deny that “experienced truth” too. Tell a thief “intoxication of honesty lasts longer than any of your establishments” He will laugh at you! [/FONT]
You do not need to learn hate to love, that is the point. What is worth living is another thing; it may differ exceedingly from rotten to ripe. Mathematics obviously fails to measure “state of indifference” as indifferent persons hardly understand “running with the crowd” !” My problem is that I refuse to be grounded just because of “sheer rationality” as it has also illusions, like a rational person should not cry at a loss, if he/she follows rationality he/she becomes inhuman, if he/she cries, he/she becomes irrational. [/FONT]
I am enjoying your rationality of your posts enveloped in various emotions, every time some thing goes near to emotions, preciousness of rationality evaporates. Smile ![/FONT]


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## Sinister (Aug 11, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> *Killing is inhumane! period, be it by anyone.*
> 
> *However, the process of killing is always, INHUMANE*
> 
> ...


 

Fundamental rule when debating…you have lost all sensibility the moment when you go into black and white! (when you start stating absolute truths)

what a linguistic nightmare…no syntax or rationality or understanding of English words. 


You are bent over judging physical processes and not the thought that leads to the physical process (when the two are connected at the hip)? 

Your thought and your intentions lead to actions (your actions are never inhumane) only your thoughts can be.
All you are doing is debating the “humanity” of the orientation of atoms moving through space and time…not targeting the thoughts that put the atoms into motion.

Here is a thought experiment:
Lets suppose it’s a slippery day (rainy) and your windshield wipers break down and your breaks fail.. you accidentally kill me with your car…IS THAT AN INHUMANE PROCESS/ACTION?

Or

Suicide:
Lets suppose you are a train engineer traveling at 50 km an hour through a station…and some deranged drunk homeless man falls in front of your train and you squash him… IS THAT AN INHUMANE PROCESS/ACTION?

Or

Your a doctor that misdiagnosis a patient… IS THAT AN INHUMANE PROCESS/ACTION?


No its not…its an innocent accident.

The words HUMANE and INHUMANE cannot be denoted to PHYSICAL actions only to the THOUGHTS that carry the actions. 


This is the Fundamentals of Linguistics and LAW theories.

You have now learnt what a “fork” is…In a debate (and in chess), a ‘Fork’…is position that will regardless of action lead to checkmate. The more you talk, the harder it gets to come up with a rational argument or defense (hence your erroneous and empty posts)

So where does that leave us?
oh yes
*Humane Killing is not an oxy{censored}...its a veridical paradox (boy am I tired of repeating myself)*

*keep rubbing *


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 11, 2008)

<<Fundamental rule when debating…you have lost all sensibility the moment when you go into black and white! (when you start stating absolute truths)

what a linguistic nightmare…no syntax or rationality or understanding of English words. 
>>

thank you...as you stand on your holier than thou pedestal...i was again expecting it.

i think i am almost near to assessing you completely 

haven't you realized that you just exist for the sake of contradicting and have added little value to the debate? 

"give it a thought! "... err... was this a paradoxical statement?


<<You are bent over judging physical processes and not the thought that leads to the physical process (when the two are connected at the hip)? 

Your thought and your intentions lead to actions (your actions are never inhumane) only your thoughts can be.
All you are doing is debating the “humanity” of the orientation of atoms moving through space and time…not targeting the thoughts that put the atoms into motion.>>

perhaps you would like to revisit the whole thread and you will understand what this thread is about and read my posts again, slowly and carefully. 

i hope that would help. If it does not, well then i am afraid my linguistic skills are not as great as yours as i cannot write foofy words 

<<Here is a thought experiment:
Lets suppose it’s a slippery day (rainy) and your windshield wipers break down and your breaks fail.. you accidentally kill me with your car…IS THAT AN INHUMANE PROCESS/ACTION?

Or

Suicide:
Lets suppose you are a train conductor traveling at 50 km an hour through a station…and some deranged drunk homeless man falls in front of your train and you squash him… IS THAT AN INHUMANE PROCESS/ACTION?>>

here is another activity you can do once you get time to get down from your academic perch

Open you dictionary and look up the meaning of word Humane.

Then see the meaning of word Killing.

now start from the scale of Humane to Inhumane. Please let me know how the picture being shown looks Humane.

and just if you want an answer to your experments, your example is the lamest i could ever read.... Those all depicted are Involuntary actions.

read your own mumbo jumbo about atoms and time space and figure out what i mean.

<<This is the Fundamentals of Linguistics and LAW theories.>>

Lingusitics and Law theories

hmm

thank you professor.   It has been an entertaining sunday evening.


<<You have now learnt what a “fork” is…In a debate (and in chess), a ‘Fork’…is position that will regardless of action lead to checkmate. The more you talk, the harder it gets to come up with a rational argument or defense (hence your erroneous and empty posts)>>

my professor always used to advise me- steer clear of those who throw theories at every point. They have nothing to share but pompous sounding words and they only speak to confuse you. 

thanks for the diversions from the topic.


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## Sinister (Aug 11, 2008)

no sweat killa 

judging from the response ive sunk in and youve accepted my underlined words

But I have a question
Is a farmer whose killed 20000 chickens on an “slaughter line” (in one day) consciously killing chickens or at this stage is his actions almost involuntary and existing on subconscious level? 

what about the doctor misdiagnosing his patient...that certainly wasn't an involutary action?

(last post)


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 11, 2008)

nope mate

you got it all wrong

Humane killing is an oxy{censored}

it is as much a VVV what evva paradox as Humane Slavery


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 11, 2008)

Here is another post made by another blogger on humane killing, am taking liberty to post it here with link as a reference, please delete content if it is a violation of any kind.

once again, i am not a veggie supporter ...this is not about veggie/non veggie being good or bad, it is about calling one act as humane vs another as inhumane

All that is required is owning up !!

isawearthlings.com &bull; View topic - Humane killing is an oxy{censored}

Let’s imagine that we encounter Simon, who is torturing a dog by burning the dog with a blowtorch. Simon’s only reason for torturing the dog is that he derives pleasure from this sort of activity.

Simon is the exact sort of person who is of interest to those concerned about the link between animal “abuse” and human violence.

Why? What is Simon doing that is so troubling?

Simon is violating a moral and legal rule that just about everyone agrees with—that it is wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering or death on animals. And what do we mean by “unnecessary”? We mean that it is wrong to inflict suffering or death on animals merely because it gives us pleasure or we find it amusing. Simon is inflicting unnecessary suffering and death on the dog; he is torturing an animal for no reason other than his pleasure and amusement.

The problem is how is Simon any different from everyone who eats meat, dairy, or eggs?

We kill more than 50 billion animals every year (worldwide) for food. There can be no doubt that animal foods involve an enormous amount of pain, suffering, and death. Animal foods produced under the most “humane” circumstances involve treating animals in ways which, if applied to humans, would constitute torture.

No one maintains that we have to eat animal foods to have optimal health. Indeed, mainstream health care professionals are increasingly of the view that animal foods are harmful for human health. And animal agriculture is a disaster for the environment.

What is the best justification that we have to inflict pain, suffering, and death on 50 billion sentient nonhumans?

The answer: we enjoy the taste of animal products. We derive pleasure from using animals even though there is no necessity involved.

So how are we different from Simon the Sadist?

Answer: we are not.

We pay someone else to kill and prepare the animal flesh, dairy, and eggs that we enjoy. But so what? We are still every bit as morally responsible as Simon the Sadist. There are just more of us and our actions are regarded as acceptable.

- source isawearthlings.com &bull; View topic - Humane killing is an oxy{censored}


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## Randip Singh (Aug 11, 2008)

This topic seems to have gone haywire. Let us address the points one by one:

*What is Jhatka?*

Jhatka is meant to be a non-ritual method of slaughter. Jhatka is one blow. In the modern context the blow can come from a bolt, gun, etc. 

Halal, Kosher, Bali are seen as ritual slaughter. For the Sikh a ritual killing for God (or a God) is seen as hypocrasy and is seen as not needed in Sikhi. A Sikh does not appease God or make apologies. If he is to eat meat then his intention for food and not cruelty.

I agree, there is no humane way to kill period whether it be animal, plant or a human, yet Sikhs do all 3.

*The Picture of Jhatka*

I was at ,my local Gurudwara last week and an elderly fellow was showing 5 year old children pictures of Sikhs being tortured, broken on the wheel, scalped etc. These pictures are in full view to the public. The Jhatka picture may be disturbing for some, but is it offensive that it needs censorship?








I think the point may have been madethat is may demonstrate to a vegetarian that why one shouldn't kill animals. Then again it may show how swiftly an animal is dispatched with Jhatka.

*Promotion of Jhatka*

Anything that is non-ritually slaughtered is OK.


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## Sinister (Aug 11, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> nope mate
> 
> you got it all wrong
> 
> Humane killing is an oxy{censored}


 

No one who has been killed has come back to tell us whether the process was humane or not. (unlike from slavery and rape victims)

define killing?
the act of a person or thing that kills.

Define Humane?
characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, esp. for the suffering or distressed



Humane killing?

Euthanasia

Fetal abortion (when the fetus poses a threat to the well being of the mother)

Shutting down a life support system on a patient

Killing cancer cells (surely this is humane killing)

Killing Bacteria in an infection (surely this is humane killing)

Misdiagnosing a patient (the doctor cares for the patient in a humane manner but kills them nevertheless)

Giving a severely wounded soldier a lethal dose of morphine

Any other involuntary killing (eg: stepping on a bug)


is their such thing as humane rape and humane slavery?
No there isn’t…all these actions: rape and slavery require intent and can never be involuntary actions.
Killing someone does not always require intent to kill
If there is no intent to kill or no intent to harm, the action leading up to death cannot be labeled as inhumane. 

The concept of Humane killing is well and alive…since it is alive it’s not an oxy{censored} (because it exists)…it’s a paradox


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 11, 2008)

you areignoring an important element - "choice" of the one being killed.


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## Sinister (Aug 11, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> you areignoring an important element - "choice" of the one being killed.


 
so you would sit there and talk to cancer cell and ask em if she/he wanted to be killed?

and in euthanasia the patient is asisted in suicide and the choice has been made

so i have ignored nothing of what you state.

Is the way the lioness kills the zebra inhumane? does the lion ask the zebra and give it a choice?

The facts resembling the truth is this:
All humans kill
All humans are not inhumane when they do





When you help another…you take away from someone else.

Just you sitting there, breathing air and consuming food/water is killing thousands of living organisms as we speak and leading to their prolonged suffering. (Including the fact that your computer is on and burning electricity)


Me taking a bite of a lettuce leaf is inhumane? (because some caterpillar died a miserable death with an insecticide...which saved the leaf for a little longer and saved myself for a littler longer, because I am now putting that leaf in my mouth)


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## Sinister (Aug 11, 2008)

I work in a hospital and I have seen (with my own eyes) conscious and semi-conscious patients pleading with doctors to pull the cord...while families cry at their side

what are your experiences with death? (other than theories derived by PETA fanatics)


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 11, 2008)

Waheguruji ka Khalsa Waheguruji ki Fateh

think about someone  dying by heart failure and another by cancer ...what is better ??

I dont really feel any of our veers who oppose jhatka do know the difference ..

i really fail to understand are we some sort of Ahimsa Marag or what 

i somewhere feel these guys can re write sikh history ..maybe replace kirpans with bouquets..!!!

this post was about promoting jhatka..and here we have people fighting over vegeterianism..this is not the issue..

do not take the issue haywire....Sikhi has space for all..this is not Jainism..we have vegeterian Nirmalas and Naamdharis ..and also meat eating Warrior Nihangs..

Accepted that initially Sikhi was not martial and had a huge influence of vegeterianism..how ever after the Sixth Guru Maharaj ..things were changing as according to times ..as we are all aware ..

The way things are being looked ..its just like ..one group of people doesnt want another one to even survive ..

Jhatka is not something to be ashamed..its something to be proud ....why kill an animal painfully...

Guru Raakha


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## pk70 (Aug 11, 2008)

I dont really feel any of our veers who oppose jhatka do know the difference ..
*Raj Khalsa ji,*
*I was hoping you have been reading all stuff posted on the thread you created, sadly I have to say, you really haven’t. If you did, you wouldn’t have concluded your assumptions as facts. Let me prove it. Who are those “Veers “who oppose Jhatka?  amarsanghera ji or me? If you think so, please reread ( his and mine) posts, our main issue is to avoid to show these pictures to small children.  However, as other Veer jis have different opinion on this, continued to drag this issue to Vegetarianism to bravery, tradition of Sikhi bla. Bla.., never actually tried to deal with the issue.*
  i really fail to understand are we some sort of Ahimsa Marag or what
*Who wrote a word against your Jhatka and declared it as “Hinsa” if not, what are you reading Veer ji? As some Veer jis are debating’ killing or humane killing” still there is not a single word against your idea.*
  i somewhere feel these guys can re write Sikh history ..maybe replace kirpans with bouquets..!!!
*What is this? Any rational brain can understand from it that you just comment on what is not even discussed. Have you read a word from amarsanghera ji or my post about History? If you did, elaborate on it though I am sure issue remained far from it all the time.*
  The way things are being looked ..its just like ..one group of people doesnt want another one to even survive ..
*Again, problem created from one’s own assumptions, has no solutions as it is assumed only. Please try to rise above these small blames being nourished in mind to defend your misunderstanding. There was only one point “to keep little children in mind while posting all kinds of stuff on this site," literally not a word against “ Jhatka or Halaal” or any profession to survive as you claim  based on  your assumption*.
  Jhatka is not something to be ashamed..its something to be proud ....why kill an animal painfully...
*Again, kindly do not make issues out of no issue; your kind understanding will be appreciated. Good luck to your new venture !

 [/FONT]*


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 11, 2008)

sinister ji

i do not work in a hospital.

i have no experience with death

i am not a veggie and nor am i a PETA member

and yes

humane killing for me is still an oxy{censored}.

and what i stated earlier holds true.

you have not read all my posts SLOWLY and tried to understand them. otherwise you would not be arguing just for the sake of arguing.

maybe yes u are what u described ur self as


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## Sinister (Aug 12, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> you have not read all my posts SLOWLY and tried to understand them.


 
amar ji,

If I had the “choice” of killing myself or reading your posts again slowly

I would choose the former because it’s more humane.  :{;o:
Irrationality cannot be rectified by simply revisiting its source.

cheers


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 12, 2008)

Sinister said:


> talking about slaughter...does this picture bother anybody?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Randip Singh (Aug 12, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> i somewhere feel these guys can re write sikh history ..maybe replace kirpans with bouquets..!!!



Sorry to digress but this comment made me laugh out loud!

Nice one Raj! :rofl!!:


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 12, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> <<Amar, strangely the other day my seven year old nephew was at the gurdwara and was looking at the pictures on the wall. If you've grown up Sikh you may know that we have pictures of shaheeds going through the most horrendous torture openly visible where kids can clearly see them. Personally if anything is going to traumatise the kids I would have thought it would be the images of Singhs getting their heads scraped off, hacked limb by limb and broken on wheels. Not to mention babies getting speared etc. I know these things were never hidden from me when young. So I would say the goat beheading is relatively tame compared to that.>>
> 
> Dal veerji
> 
> ...


 

Bhai what about Bhaye Prapat Manukh Janam Dehuriya....

ਪੰਨਾ 486, ਸਤਰ 8
ਮਾਨੁਖਾ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਦੁਲਭ ਤਿਹੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਪੋਚ ॥੨॥
मानुखा अवतार दुलभ तिही संगति पोच ॥२॥
Mānukẖā avṯār ḏulabẖ ṯihī sangaṯ pocẖ. ||2||
It is so difficult to obtain this human incarnation, and yet, they keep company with the low. ||2||
ਭਗਤ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਜੀ   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


ਪੰਨਾ 1427, ਸਤਰ 18
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨਿ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ ਦੁਰਲਭ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹ ॥੨੭॥
कहु नानक सुनि रे मना दुरलभ मानुख देह ॥२७॥
Kaho Nānak sun rė manā ḏurlabẖ mānukẖ ḏėh. ||27||
Says Nanak, listen, mind: this human body is difficult to obtain. ||27||
ਮਃ 9   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


ਪੰਨਾ 1159, ਸਤਰ 7
ਇਸ ਦੇਹੀ ਕਉ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਦੇਵ ॥
इस देही कउ सिमरहि देव ॥
Is ḏėhī ka&shy;o simrahi ḏėv.
Even the gods long for this human body.
ਭਗਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


So humans being better the animals could be understood from here dear bother.


Coming to dead issue.Das with folded hand just try to beg you to understand that in Semitic faiths and in Nihungs dead animal are not allowed to be consumed and killed are.

Das here means dead as died of natiral death and same is termed as murdar,while killed animal (for eating)is called Halal or Kosher or Jhataka for us.For das Sikhism is 73rd code/shara of Islam(which was started by Hazrat Adaam Ahle Sallah).

Das agrees that love is supereme but there are a good lot of guys who ,on our showing love to them inspite of thier evil doing deem it as our weakness and further commit evil.

We at first  talk of love and never start haterd but we do retaliate when no other mean is left.

So we are non Gandhian.Gandhi was no where less then Hitler Ji.

We give love a first chance but subse****ly we take other ways also and such ways in 
Panth we need.Akal Bless.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 12, 2008)

Gurfateh


pk70 said:


> Javakan De Dill Chirhi Warge Na Banaye.( quote Vijaydeep Singh ji)
> 
> 
> *Vijaydeep Singh ji,*
> ...


 

Well it appears that there seems to be good influence of book about Jhatak by Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh Ji and Tyu Kyo Murgi Mare by Mr J S Talwara.

Well Mr Kala Afghana wrote Maas Maas Kar Murakh Jagre.Kanwar Ajeet Singh wrote Sabh Dusht Jhakh Mara against him(das will make this online).But there was some and great mistake by all on meat issue.

When did das told about making curagius.Das wants them more shroode in war.Wars in present are not won by bravery but by ruthlessness ,mercilessness etc.

Das is aware that niether Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh nor Mr Talwara served the forces.

When we plant the bomb and run away as Babber Khalsa guys do,we do not hAVE TO SEE THE BLOOD SPILLING OVER.But in hand to hand final assault things are differnt.

Then during surivial techniques,we are told to use only animals in jungle.Say if some one throws poision on trees in jungle,tree will not die.But for animals in jungle,only few may digest the poision,So while dealing with chemical warefare etc. also eating animals in jungle is OK.

Will it be possible for always veggi by religeon to eat rat only when needed ie without practise to digest it.Will it not be a hell in psychological front,when in already adverse condition,food is something unique and hated for long.Akal bless.


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## Astroboy (Aug 12, 2008)

To counter the "evil design" of the RSS, a Sikh youth leader reportedly went so far as to propose serving beef in the Gurdwara _langar_. Such an anti-Hindu move is not anti-Sikh, since Sikhism evidently does not proscribe beef. Furthermore, agitating organisations in Punjab are pressing the local civic bodies for granting separate cremation grounds for Sikhs.

*Sikhs Aren't Hindus!*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]Sikhs maintain that Sikhism is not an offshoot of Hinduism and was not created as the sword arm of Hindus against Muslim invaders, but as a distinct community to fight 'oppression' in whatever form it existed. So, the Sikhs have an identity of their own vis-à-vis the religious and cultural content and form of Hinduism. 

 Source : hindu.about.com    Are Sikhs Hindus?


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## pk70 (Aug 12, 2008)

Well it appears that there seems to be good influence of book about Jhatak by Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh Ji and Tyu Kyo Murgi Mare by Mr J S Talwara.
*Vijaydeep Singh ji,*
*You have also joined “ assume and comment” group”,  I have never read a book by Bhai Randhir Singh,  or of Js Talwara; when I joined this site, I was wondering why Bhai Randhir singh was given so high status by some? So your assumption doesn’t go beyond its characteristics.
*Well Mr Kala Afghana wrote Maas Maas Kar Murakh Jagre.Kanwar Ajeet Singh wrote Sabh Dusht Jhakh Mara against him(das will make this online).But there was some and great mistake by all on meat issue.
*Who cares about Kala afgana, a guy who has literally poor impression on me, what can he teach or influence me or others who keep the mind open for all sides, problem is” not understanding the comments or request but quickly jump to respond.”  My simple request was to consider children while posting all kinds of stuff on this site” was my request a threat to non vegetarians? Reread my Request, there is one word” children” the request is bound to that word.*
  When did das told about making curagius.Das wants them more shroode in war.Wars in present are not won by bravery but by ruthlessness ,mercilessness etc.
*Reread your own post, in your post  and find this clause“chiri varge dil” it was addressed to whom and why? Can you remember that? Now you have come up with new strategy of winning a war in context of “what should be shown or not shown to children” Amazing spirit of Khalsa! Wismaad !*
When *we* plant the bomb and run away as Babber Khalsa guys do,we do not hAVE TO SEE THE BLOOD SPILLING OVER.But in hand to hand final assault things are differnt.
*Please come out of this” WE”  amarsanghera ji and I only asked to consider children in context of such posts as posted by rajkhalsa ji. How it can be dragged to plot bombing so irrationally?*
  Will it be possible for always veggi by religeon to eat rat only when needed ie without practise to digest it.Will it not be a hell in psychological front,when in already adverse condition,food is something unique and hated for long.Akal bless.
*Dreams have no bearings, realistically or hypothetically as my comments have nothing to do with your label” ‘Veggi”*
*It is my humble request, please read carefully before commenting or labeling others by depending on your sheer assumptions or uncontrollable favoritism for non vegetarians even when there is no such issue at all.*


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## spnadmin (Aug 12, 2008)

Just a caution please dear forum members. Read carefully what the other person is saying before you respond. Don't take each statement literally. sometimes a person is using a figure of speech. I am not asking that peace and love break out on SPN, but only that comments to controversy are based on what people actually say. And if you use a figure of speech that might be badly misunderstood, try to explain your meaning in parentheses or something like that. Thanks 


You know, forum talk just like email, is scanned by national security satellites for frequent use of key words. Hmm.


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## Sinister (Aug 12, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *Please come out of this” WE” amarsanghera ji and I only asked to consider children in context of such posts as posted by rajkhalsa ji. *


 
:rofl!!: 






kinda resembles body parts doesn’t it? BAN IT! TAKE IT OFF! HENNY PENNY THE SKY IS FALLING!

carnage! Would somebody please think of the children? Oh please, oh please? 

Snot faced children don’t care…feed them…clean the fecal matter from their bottoms and send them to school…they’ll turn out just fine (well the majority of them).

Pk70 I may be hyper-rational at times but at least I’m not hyper-emotional.






this little guy seems pretty happy? Look at the background!









I was in grade 5 when we first dissected frogs (that would make me around 9-10 years old)  

Should we change school curriculum because some hyper-sensitive softies would be “traumatized”?

What exactly are your irrational concerns? and exactly what would you like to censor?

:down:


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## pk70 (Aug 12, 2008)

kinda resembles body parts doesn’t it? BAN IT! TAKE IT OFF! HENNY PENNY THE SKY IS FALLING!
*Well sinister ji, you have made me laugh, at least now you are on the issue.*
*Does it( fruit in a plate) resemble with the act” shown in the picture” posted by raj khalsa ji? If you see that act in that plate, no further question because it will be beyond my comprehension, may be I am not good at visualizing “ a plate of cut fruit” being like “beheading of an animal”.*
  Pk70 I may be hyper-rational at times but at least I’m not hyper-emotional
*I am glad you are not hyper emotional, it is healthy.  If you think I am, I must improve my emotional convictions*
  this little guy seems pretty happy? Look at the background!

*The children you are showing are not there at their own, some part of the world is still learning how to understand children more, so this argument doesn’t help much.*
  I was in grade 5 when we first dissected frogs (that would make me around 9-10 years old) Should we change school curriculum because some hyper-sensitive softies would be “traumatized”?
* Should children under 8 or 7 also witness frog dissecting to understand anatomy? Why it is not done in 3d, 4th grade?*
  What exactly are your irrational concerns? and exactly what would you like to censor?

*My rational concerns are when people start making issues out of nothing. To make it a simpler, here in your post, you stayed on the issue, regardless of my opinion, rationality has bearings to defend what you say but to make warriors out of act of beheading of animals or frog dissecting is irrational issue. Regarding censorship, my stand is very clear, where ever some issues are discussed if they mount to concerns of little children, MOD should rate it or censor it as they think appropriate… Smile !*


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## Sinister (Aug 12, 2008)

Pk70

How many 3-8 years old Sikhs are going to go online (alone...without supervision) and click on sikh philosophy and look up a discussion on the promotion of Jhatka meat?

A 7 or 8 year old probably can't even spell sikhphilosophy in the url bar

Do you understand something called demographics?

And if a child wanted to see carnage he would see it on TV, youtube or google images first.

You do not understand child psychology…stop pretending like you do. 

If was 6 and I saw that, I would say something like… “COOL!” or "EWWW" and then, move on with my life …A task, it seems, that adults are not capable of doing. (adults like to judge and debate on whether something is "humane" or not)

In grade 3 we were learning about mummification and I saw a live mummy at a museum exhibition. looked kinda like this






we should also ban skeletons in classrooms according to this "rationality"

god forbid we create any curiosity amongst the young about simple biology
might offend and traumatize the children

what do you tell your children when they bleed?..."dont worry sport, its just a little ketchup"


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## pk70 (Aug 12, 2008)

A 7 or 8 year old probably can't even spell sikhphilosophy in the url bar[/FONT]
Sinister ji, stop generalizing things just because you think every child goes on computer only at its own. There are children of the same age you are quoting above, they sit with parents and try to understand about Sikhism; one example is our respected Form leader Gurvinder_ janu, her kids go there with her as she stated once, we don’t know of their age, there could be others who do like this as well. imagine three years or four years is clinging to a mother who is on this site then suddenly comes across to this picture showing an act of violence, what would you say, if there is warning, mother or father wont go there as long as that child is there.[/FONT]

Do you understand something called demographics?[/FONT]
I know but if it has new meanings, teach me.[/FONT]
And if a child wanted to see carnage he would see it on TV, youtube or google images first.[/FONT]
Well now you are talking about “Ifs” in context of children’s desire or linking, we were discussing to see if all images are good for all children including who do not know how to type.[/FONT]

You do not understand child psychology…stop pretending like you do.[/FONT]
Well, I understand it as I read it as a subject, the reason you don’t see frog dissecting on curriculums in grade third and fourth is recommended on the basis of child psychology. The children who are less exposed to violence at very early age will refrain from violent behavior, who are, could develop that depending upon circumstances they put through. Mind is a slate, imprinting images on it, transforms it . Fossils and act of violence cannot be called the same, I feel you understand that very well, why you are mixing them, I wonder! Reality has its facets[/FONT]. Depends how you want to look at it Sinister ji.[/FONT]


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## Sinister (Aug 12, 2008)

Pk70 ji,




pk70 said:


> Sinister ji, stop generalizing things just because you think every child goes on computer only at its own. There are children of the same age you are quoting above, they sit with parents and try to understand about





pk70 said:


> Sikhism; one example is our respected Form leader Gurvinder_ janu, her kids go there with her as she stated once, we don’t know of their age, there could be others who do like this as well. imagine three years or four years is clinging to a mother who is on this site then suddenly comes across to this picture showing an act of violence, what would you say, if there is warning, mother or father wont go there as long as that child is there.



 


this was never about WARNINGS!!!! 

it was about your request for CENSORSHIP!!!!

they are two different WORDS!


this was your first post.



pk70 said:


> *request*
> 
> *Can Any One Can Delete This Picture< There Are Children Who May Be Going On This Site*, *for What Purpose It Has Been Posted*


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 12, 2008)

sinisterji

pk70 or anyone do not have to "try"


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## Sinister (Aug 12, 2008)

this was mr. sanghera's request



amarsanghera said:


> aadji
> 
> this picture is shocking !!!
> 
> ...


 
Now Psychologically:
either this picture bothered you...and you conviniently used the classic "oh would someone please think of the children" routine

or you were lobbying for nothing at all and just craving 'righteous attention'.


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## Sinister (Aug 12, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> sinisterji
> 
> pk70 or anyone do not have to "try"




lets have a little fun with this confessional

trying is hard


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 12, 2008)

deleting the lines?



i wouldn't dare do a psychoanalysis.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 12, 2008)

<<either this picture bothered you...and you conviniently used the classic "oh would someone please think of the children" routine>>

of course it bothered me, are you still in some doubt?

Every one uses routines, i know ur routine pretty well 

<<<or you were lobbying for nothing at all and just craving 'righteous attention'.>>

:whisling:

traa traa la la la


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## Sinister (Aug 12, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> deleting the lines?
> 
> 
> 
> i wouldn't dare do a psychoanalysis.


 
nope just trying to keep the peace :u):


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## pk70 (Aug 12, 2008)

this was never about WARNINGS!!!! 

it was about your request for CENSORSHIP!!!!

they are two different WORDS!


this was your first post.
  Quote:
          Originally Posted by *pk70* 


*request*_

*Can Any One Can Delete This Picture< There Are Children Who May Be   Going On This Site*, *for What Purpose It Has Been Posted*_

*I settled with warning solution when I noticed people making other issues out of my request and started defending their stand by dragging the original issue to many assumptions; and aad0002 ji wrote about her inability to remove it, you can read that too so I settled with the warning. If one person from removing the picture settles with warning, what is wrong with that sinister ji? Have I wasted your time?  My request whether it was to censor it( I  commented on that too, you forgot about  that, I wrote to the fact that as  sinister ji says it is in the hands of raj khalsa ji) or a warning be posted- came later – conveying the same message of keeping children in mind; if I knew it would go to that length I would have added “ or warning be placed on this thread”  See I am not a psyche ! Why it is so big deal for you sinister ji? Smile !*


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## Sinister (Aug 12, 2008)

pk70 said:


> this was never about WARNINGS!!!!
> 
> it was about your request for CENSORSHIP!!!!
> 
> ...


 

Ok thats good... we have made progress

I was raised as a north-american and i believe in "Shock and Awe" :}{}{}:

we can agree to disagree though (i think both sides made very good cases...for and against the existance of warnings)


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## Sinister (Aug 12, 2008)

now this girl has it right...and has been conditioned properly

YouTube - When a 3 year old is asked about monsters


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 13, 2008)

Gurfateh


pk70 said:


> Well it appears that there seems to be good influence of book about Jhatak by Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh Ji and Tyu Kyo Murgi Mare by Mr J S Talwara.
> *Vijaydeep Singh ji,*
> *You have also joined “ assume and comment” group”, I have never read a book by Bhai Randhir Singh, or of Js Talwara; when I joined this site, I was wondering why Bhai Randhir singh was given so high status by some? So your assumption doesn’t go beyond its characteristics.*
> Well Mr Kala Afghana wrote Maas Maas Kar Murakh Jagre.Kanwar Ajeet Singh wrote Sabh Dusht Jhakh Mara against him(das will make this online).But there was some and great mistake by all on meat issue.
> ...


 Dear Sister/Brother,

Das is soory if something wrong was writtan.Das never used term Chiri Varga Dil for eating meat but it was more not letting Children see jhataka of Goat or Animal.Das hope this doubt is cleared.

Das is still coming back to children as Chidren in us and in poor Sikhs themselves kill animal.
Akal Bless


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## pk70 (Aug 13, 2008)

(quote Vijaydeep Singh ji)
Dear Sister/Brother,

Das is soory if something wrong was writtan.

*You do not need to feel sorry, I only asked not to assume too much. Thanks.
FOR THE RECORD(SECOND TIME), I AM BROTHER, PK70 but also known as G. Singh.*


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 13, 2008)

Waheguruji ka Khalsa Waheguruji ki Fateh

Saadh Sangatji,

  Well my apologies to bhai amar sanghera and Pk70 and all others who felt i dint 'read' their posts...and i misunderstood..

good to hear you dont have anything against jhatka ..but the way it was debated..it gave a strict jaini look..so now the issue is just against the pic..ummm..guys..maybe the next time i post any pics..we can have a sensation and emotion commitee to check with sensors..maybe you guys could be heads...hehehe..just kidding....

well let others too decide..whats ok and whats not ...but guys i dont have anything against any of you..whether you r kirtani jatha or no jatha..the bottom line is we r sikhs..the best we can do is ..AGREE TO DISAGREE...no hard feelings ..

Raaj Karega Khalsa


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 14, 2008)

Gurfateh

Dear Bro PK70/G Singh Ji,

Akal Bless.


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## Randip Singh (Aug 14, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> Waheguruji ka Khalsa Waheguruji ki Fateh
> 
> Saadh Sangatji,
> 
> ...



As a matter of interest can u pm me the link to that picture?


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 14, 2008)

Well its good to know on this forum that someone who is interested in Jhatka pics and equally upsetting that a couple of people can impose their views and decision ..it now should be www.amarsangherapk70philosophy.net :}--}:and not www.sikhphilosophy.net  i dint know this ..if this forum is a private party ..umm carry on ..i dont think i would want to be part of this ..i have liked this forum ..have been wanted to be here ..but it its turning into a private party..carry on ..:8-

finally the pic is removed..so be happy ..and randip singh ji ..do u want that website censored or is it some other interest ..well u run the search engine and u will get it ..

so guys ..take care ..i dont feel to be a part of this ..am sorry ..but if thats how things run..then its time for me to decide ...

i would want to thank all of you on this website..in al lthese times i have made good contacts like ..Bhai Vijaydeep ji ..Dr khalsa ji ..Bhai Kds80 ji ..and recently Bhai Sinisterji...

thank you all of you

*  RAAJ KAREGA KHALSA*


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## kds1980 (Aug 14, 2008)

Raj khalsa ji

Please do not leave this forum Differences are part of forums.I think you have not seen other sikh websites PK70ji and amarsanghera ji are still respectfull .On other sikh websites fanatic vegetarian sikhs will not hesistate to do jhatka of non veg sikhs if they post these type of pics :


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## Sinister (Aug 14, 2008)

Ladies and Gentlemen...this is how you perform Jhatka:








source
Chatka on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Caption (by photographer):
"In this instance, a goat is being decapitated - the meat served is known as 'Mahaparshad' (great blessed food). The meat was served at the 'Langar' (public kitchen) during the festivities celebrating the 400th anniversary of the 'Aad Guru Durbar' (the first of three sacred scripture of the Sikhs). The practice of Chatka is also seen as a sacrfice to appease the 'Bir Ras' (warrior spirit) and 'Chandi' (the warrior goddess often seen in Indian mythological imagery as riding a tiger/leopard/lion).

Many modern/orthodox/reformist Sikhs believe eating meat/eggs/fish is considered to be a punishable "sin" and find the practice of 'Chatka' as being 'anti-Sikh'. However, amongst 'Sanatan' (traditional) Sikhs, diet is a concept that is dependent upon one's personality, character, spiritual path, goals and duties. For example, Akali Nihang Singhs, being warriors with dynamic lifestyles, eat meat - while 'Udasis' (traditional pacifist missionaries) abstain from harming animals in any way, and are strict lacto-vegans.

Please note, any comments regarding ideological arguements either pro or anti-meat eating will be deleted and the individual blocked. 'Chatka' is a Nihang tradition and the legend to the image has been made according to the traditional Sikh perspective."

Now im not going to remove this ...so stop asking...you can remove it if you wish

its just an excellent stop motion picture

that shows a "humane" way of killing an animal for consumption


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## pk70 (Aug 14, 2008)

Well its good to know on this forum that someone who is interested in Jhatka pics and equally upsetting that a couple of people can impose their views and decision ..it now should be www.amarsangherapk70philosophy.net





and not www.sikhphilosophy.net i dint know this ..if this forum is a private party ..umm carry on ..i dont think i would want to be part of this ..i have liked this forum ..have been wanted to be here ..but it its turning into a private party..carry on

*Raj Khalsa Ji*
*It is amazing how small hearts get boxed in tiny spaces. No body spoke against your venture, you have a couple of people in disagreement ONLY in context of picture but they didn’t impose their views on any one as you accuse , fortunately for you there are a lot of members who spoke in favor of Jhatka but still you are a cry baby!  Sinister ji is a friend of mine, we go in disagreement time to time but never ever get frustrated with each other as you have.  It appears you needed all forum members to say Yes Yes Good Good” My request, don’t blame the forum for God’s sake by accusing it private party, what our disagreement has to do with the forum and its integrity? pray for more understanding. Second time,  good luck for your venture.*


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 14, 2008)

<<that shows a "humane" way of killing an animal for consumption>>

:happy:

here we go again

:inca:


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 14, 2008)

hEY pK70..MAN WHATS WRONG WITH U?? WHAT VENTURE ..U TALKING BOUT ? WAS THIS ARGUEMENT BOUT A VENTURE ?? DO U KNOW WHY I WROTE THE LAST ONE ??? I THINK U NEED TO CLEAR YOR THOUGHTS ..STOP CALLING SOMEONE CRY BABY..WHO'S A CRY BABY MAN ?? ME ?? OR U ? WHO'S CRIBBING ?? WHO'S THE WISE PERSON WITH MASTERS IN CHIDL PSYCHOLOGY?? GET YORSELF A CUPPA COFFEE MAN..

YOU MAYBE A FRIEND OF ANYONE ..DO I CARE ...OR DID I ASK FOR REFERENCES...

THE REASON OF ME BEING UPSET IS ..THE PIC WAS REMOVED ..I DINT DO IT ...SO THE PERSON WHO DID ..WAS IN YOR AND YOR COMERADE'S INTEREST ..U GUYS CRIBBING FOR GETTING THAT PIC REMOVED ..AND U WERE SUCCESSFUL...I DONT LIKE DISCUSSIONS WITH ADOLESCENT AND UNDER MATURE PEOPLE MAN...

WHO'S THE CRIBBER MAN...AND THE WAY U REACTED ..JUST GO THROUGH YOR OWN POSTS..SOUNDS LIKE A NANNY..WHOOOOO....

ANYWAYS ..STOP BEING THE WISE GUY AROUND MAN...AND DONT DREAM ...TOO MUCH OF DREAMING OF BEING WISE DOESNT COME HANDY

GOOD LUCK ..AND FIND ANOTHER GOAT...TO GIVE YOR WISE ****..


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 14, 2008)

dal veerji

the thread moved into the areas you had mentioned up front. 

ball is in mods' court now


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 14, 2008)

I know something here now ..u need influence ..u know someone and yor data's not gonna be turned off..well so thats how things work...good...thats the indian way..we call it babu dom...u know someone in the govt office and u can get through ..if not ..its not yor day...


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 14, 2008)

i thought there would be intellectual thought on how one could promote whats part of culture and religion..and here we r fighting over just a pic of the ritual..forget discussing hwo we could..and we got bunch of wise guys who want to turn the whole discussion into a vegetable market....

the postings of such just show how they love to preach someone ..


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## Sinister (Aug 14, 2008)

LOL here we go again:happy:

Rajkhalsa ji I understand frustration, but you have to be defiant until the end!
be a thorn in the side! 

"truth springs from argument amongst friends" -David Hume

I agree with pk70 here...dont just run off because of disagreement
but then again ... the choice is yours...freedom!! (your time could be better spent elsewhere rather than talking to people like myself) 


PS: I reposted this picture because Randip Singh ji was interested in its source...so i posted it for all to be seen
and to explain the technique of jhatka to the younger children


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 14, 2008)

u r right sinisterji...look man..i need some mature discussion..look at the waste ...in all these days since the posting there wasnt anyting fruitful posted ..all that was done was opposing ..and why should i waste my time over this ..the whole discussion was abt the picture...see how wise we get ...forget actual action..the guys who did this dint want this to go ahead ..simple as that..and its not abt that i m frustrated till the end ..but here there is bias by the moderator...


whats the use of discussing it with someone who's got a big NO  in their head...


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 14, 2008)

<<(your time could be better spent elsewhere rather than talking to people like myself)>>

:happy:


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## pk70 (Aug 14, 2008)

hEY pK70..MAN WHATS WRONG WITH U?? WHAT VENTURE ..U TALKING BOUT ? WAS THIS ARGUEMENT BOUT A VENTURE ??

*raj khalsa ji, see the dictionary, it is about your jhatka business promotion, a well wishing, why does it hurt you? Missed it due to tantrum?*

   DO U KNOW WHY I WROTE THE LAST ONE ??? I THINK U NEED TO CLEAR YOR THOUGHTS ..STOP CALLING SOMEONE CRY BABY..WHO'S A CRY BABY MAN ?? ME ?? OR U ? WHO'S CRIBBING ?? 
*You have blamed the forum, you have written that two people are forcing views on you, be judge of yourself, did I ever say a word against your “promoting of Jhatka?”Or Forum or  Mod try to stop you what you wrote, then why these blames?*

  WHO'S THE WISE PERSON WITH MASTERS IN CHIDL PSYCHOLOGY?? GET YORSELF A CUPPA COFFEE MAN..
*Why a simple request is attached to a degree, any logical point?  So that is your logic base to respond. Wonderful ! Take a deep breath, and check out, you are no where apposed at all, what I see in your posts” assumptions and accusations” Very well you can say” I don’t care” So it be.
*
YOU MAYBE A FRIEND OF ANYONE ..DO I CARE ...OR DID I ASK FOR REFERENCES..
*I gave one example, how we stay in disagreement but never get frustrated as you did and started blaming others who just questioned picture and, the forum which did nothing to you.. Why would I refer any one to you? I noticed you in your post crying, I answered it, that’s all, Raj Khalsa ji.
[/FONT]*    THE REASON OF ME BEING UPSET IS ..THE PIC WAS REMOVED ..I DINT DO IT ...SO THE PERSON WHO DID ..WAS IN YOR AND YOR COMERADE'S INTEREST ..U GUYS CRIBBING FOR GETTING THAT PIC REMOVED ..AND U WERE SUCCESSFUL...I DONT LIKE DISCUSSIONS WITH ADOLESCENT AND UNDER MATURE PEOPLE MAN.
*Well your this very post can prove who is adolescent? Let others read and decide who is actually adolescent!, you cannot even understand” request”.  Regarding removing of this picture, I already wrote “ I give up as I settle with warning for children .. as it doesn’t matter to me any more... Mature people do not assume, do not accuse others falsely, that is for sure!!!!

*WHO'S THE CRIBBER MAN...AND THE WAY U REACTED ..JUST GO THROUGH YOR OWN POSTS..SOUNDS LIKE A NANNY..WHOOOOO.
*If you reread your own posts you would find, in stead of understanding, your guts show up to blame, to accuse  others for no reason and you often assume and think its maturity…WONDEROUS !

*ANYWAYS ..STOP BEING THE WISE GUY AROUND MAN...AND DONT DREAM ...TOO MUCH OF DREAMING OF BEING WISE DOESNT COME HANDY
*What is dreaming here?  Who claims to be wise and in what way?  As you have the right to have opinion so every one does? Why you are so angry, nothing is said against your promotion, integrity?*

GOOD LUCK ..AND FIND ANOTHER GOAT...TO GIVE YOR WISE ****..
*Show respect at least to yourself even if tantrums are out of control*


* 
 [/FONT]*


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## Sinister (Aug 14, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> <<(your time could be better spent elsewhere rather than talking to people like myself)>>
> 
> :happy:


 

that includes ignoramouses like you, as well:happy:


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 14, 2008)

<<<<
Originally Posted by *amarsanghera* 

 
_<<(your time could be better spent elsewhere rather than talking to people like myself)>>

:happy:_

that includes ignoramouses like you, as well:happy:>>>

yes, we ignorant people must avoid you


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 14, 2008)

You are again playing with words man...well the pattern in way things are expressed ..sounds just taking the suggestion in the other way...look man ..there is nothing about my venture ..God knows why u have the venture high in yor head ..u seem to be a businessman..

Look man..its the way u see words if u see counter arguements as anger and cry and want to pull others down ..its yor way..

by saying someone's a cry baby doesnt make u grow up...acting wise ..wont make u wise ..had u been wise ..u wouldnt have wasted time and used influence to get that pic off....

u know how this discussion deteriorated ..

step 1 - i requested how we could have a choice as sikhs ..and if we had a chain of shops..

step2 - some funny posts..

step3 - my post with that picture 

now from here things turn sour...there was discussion on how we were affected and we were not ..about our history ..

well look..man..if you want to turn the situation accusing someone ..and taking the discussion away from the issue..well thats what u guys did ...

was the issue resolved  NO...imagine we sikhs couldnt not unite over the issue ..instead we took the issue to a totally dfferent direction..was this whole thing about pictures affecting children NO...

why was i upset ...because someone doesnt understand why what is being said ...but guys its not just you ..the whole country of ours is facing this situation...

I had given the example of Ladakh,..in one of my posts...there again it was a situation which was live ..

Imagine the kahsmiri muslims have time and again attacked buddhists...the relations are bad ...the buddhists dont want them in ladakh...BUT..still they prefer buying meat from them...WHY?? because someone starts a venture..people like we have in this forum jump in and take the issue ..osmewhere else ..the person i knew could do it ..but he feared being thrown out ..

the society doesnt think..lets do something like this ..whats more sensible ..burying differnences and getting a solution ..or going on arguing abt dos and donts and helping the terrorists to flourish..

if this can happen here ..i can imagine how it could happen in the actual society...

i got more angry since we have people calling names..look man no one's crying ..or really getting frustrated ..since this is an impersonal arguement...do u think i would depend on you guys for advice.??? if i wnat to do things i dont need forum...i need to DO IT ...

i tried my best to be soft..but things dont work that way...


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## Sinister (Aug 14, 2008)

:{;o:





amarsanghera said:


> <<<<
> Originally Posted by *amarsanghera*
> 
> 
> ...


 

ignorant people should just avoid each other is all im saying...you just happen to be one of the many in the poppy field...just like myself...not so different now are we?:roll:


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 14, 2008)

<<<<u know how this discussion deteriorated ..

step 1 - i requested how we could have a choice as sikhs ..and if we had a chain of shops..

step2 - some funny posts..

step3 - my post with that picture 

now from here things turn sour...there was discussion on how we were affected and we were not ..about our history ..

well look..man..if you want to turn the situation accusing someone ..and taking the discussion away from the issue..well thats what u guys did ...

was the issue resolved NO...imagine we sikhs couldnt not unite over the issue ..instead we took the issue to a totally dfferent direction..was this whole thing about pictures affecting children NO...

why was i upset ...because someone doesnt understand why what is being said ...but guys its not just you ..the whole country of ours is facing this situation...>>>>>>>>>>>



it was fine till the third step

may I ask you why was the picture posted? Did it have any linkeage to discussion?

In my opinion, NO. However, all I and pk70 requested was that some sort of moderation be done on pictures generally accepted as violent in nature. Everyone had opinion and they all shared. Did we keep shouting about vegetarianism etc etc...NO

And what did you answer it with?

<<<<Bhul Chuk Muaaf Karni...May I know what was so bad about the picture ??? Its not about me right and you wrong ..or vice a versa ...I confused..shocked ..lost..!!!!


There is better slaughter pictures in a child's book..chicken chops sausages..pork..stuffed pork...beef..lamb ...and much more ..veers in USA have a better idea...

*I believe all those sensitive veers who would like to have this pic removed are in some associated with vegeterianism..or our other brotherhood sangats like Akhand Kirtani Jatha...*

For all our sensitive veers ..i think when a child sees this picture ..this will be a boon in disguise..since the child will have questions ..(are we afraid of those questions by the way ?) This picture might promote vegeterianism in that child if he/she knows how this works ...and gets affected by slaughter..

I respect all yor emotions Veers ..and we are one ..*but please make me understand* ..I have the highest respect for vegeterianism and vegeterians ..please dont get me wrong...

Bhai Sinister ji I thank you for understanding me ..*lets all our veers discuss this and enlighten me ..how a ritual..which is part of our culture.....can be censored..i would like to know ..*

Veers ..trust me *..if all our Saadh Sangat feels i have done something wrong ..I will remove the pic.. there is no ego issue* ..after all we are here to unite and not fight ..

i a sanatan Sikh..another a kirtani jatha..maybe someone a namdhari...our basic idea is to unite and not prove the other one wrong ..*WE ARE ONE* 

*Will be waiting for more of your opinion*...>>>>



1. You made generic assumptions and brought in vegetarianism and what not into the discussion
2. You yourself called out for a discussion on whether this picture should be there or not- now lease tell me- who side tracked the discussion?

If you were so keen on discussing abt having meat chain or solving the problem you had two choices to make:

1. Ignore the posts we made and merrily go ahead and discuss, let the mods decide
2. Wait for discussion that you invited

Now we see that you call people who were debating the discussion you decided as “wise men” and “egoistical” – don’t you think that you need to see your original post and decide who is taking it personally?

This forum does not belong to anyone. We all have had disagreements and heated exchanges. Everyone has issues they hold dear but this does not allow having a prejudiced view of the mods’ decisions. They have a written policy and as long as they abide by it in true spirit, I am happy and hope all should be.

Now we move to page number 3

Discussion now moves to how children can be educated about death and meat

Who started it? One of the members, did you object then?

NO

If the original topic was close to you, you could have objected then and brought it to group’s notice.

Merely starting a topic does not entitle you to include or exclude views and opinions that come in. You have to PARTICIPATE and steer it if you want a logical conclusion.

Next,

Page 4 to 7, we do not see you anywhere !!!

Its just me and Sinister rolling around in theoretical muck J

You come back into the discussion myself and Sinister were having and added comments, which were no way to our discussion and neither to your topic.

You brought in another twist in the tale with Ahimsa, vegetarianism, rewriting Sikh history and Jainism

WE WERE NOT DISCUSSING VEGETARIANISM !!!!!

<<*I dont really feel any of our veers who oppose jhatka do know the difference ..*

i really fail to understand are we some sort of *Ahimsa Marag* or what 

*i somewhere feel these guys can re write Sikh history ..maybe replace kirpans with bouquets..!!!*

this post was about promoting jhatka..and here we have people *fighting over vegeterianism*..this is not the issue..

do not take the issue haywire....Sikhi has space for all..*this is not Jainism*..we have vegeterian Nirmalas and Naamdharis ..and also meat eating Warrior Nihangs..

Accepted that initially Sikhi was not martial and had a huge influence of vegeterianism..how ever after the Sixth Guru Maharaj ..things were changing as according to times ..as we are all aware ..

The way things are being looked ..*its just like ..one group of people doesnt want another one to even survive ..
*
*Jhatka is not something to be ashamed..its something to be proud ....why kill an animal painfully...>>>*

Except for maybe the last line, your post was all based on assumptions and not on our previous discussions.

All pk70 ji did was to point out your mistake that you had not read the complete discussion

<<<I dont really feel any of our veers who oppose jhatka do know the difference ..
*Raj Khalsa ji,*
*I was hoping you have been reading all stuff posted on the thread you created, sadly I have to say, you really haven’t. If you did, you wouldn’t have concluded your assumptions as facts. Let me prove it. Who are those “Veers “who oppose Jhatka? amarsanghera ji or me? If you think so, please reread ( his and mine) posts, our main issue is to avoid to show these pictures to small children. However, as other Veer jis have different opinion on this, continued to drag this issue to Vegetarianism to bravery, tradition of Sikhi bla. Bla.., never actually tried to deal with the issue.>>>*


*Then we have a post from you yesterday 1:38 pm *

*<<*Waheguruji ka Khalsa Waheguruji ki Fateh

Saadh Sangatji,

Well my apologies to bhai amar sanghera and Pk70 and all others who felt i dint 'read' their posts...and i misunderstood..

good to hear you dont have anything against jhatka ..but the way it was debated..it gave a strict jaini look..so now the issue is just against the pic..ummm..guys..maybe the next time i post any pics..we can have a sensation and emotion commitee to check with sensors..maybe you guys could be heads...hehehe..just kidding....

well let others too decide..whats ok and whats not ...but guys i dont have anything against any of you..whether you r kirtani jatha or no jatha..the bottom line is we r sikhs..the best we can do is ..AGREE TO DISAGREE...no hard feelings ..

Raaj Karega Khalsa>>>


And then you start your tirade against one and all !!

May I ask you, were you stung that your pics were removed or the topic was not discussed.

You saw the topic for two days and you had every right to restart your discussion points, but there was no attempt !!!


So my message to you is,

Chill !!

This is just a forum

We come here to discuss. No one takes it to heart till you start singling out someone and call them rude names.

If you want something to be discussed strictly  within the boundaries , please do add it to your posts up front.  

This is considered general forum etiquette.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 14, 2008)

<<poppy field>>

ah, reminds me of something!!

what do you say Dal veerji..

sinister is very keen on poppy


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 14, 2008)

Ok Amar veerji...this is better ..i apologize for my my mistakes ..good that u cleared the cloud..Bhai pk70 ji ..accept my apologies ...

somehtings go haywire..based on assumptions ...i would be adding both of u ..as my friends ..no more firing ..hehehehehe

bhul chuk muaaf karni

Raaj Karega Khalsa


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## spnadmin (Aug 14, 2008)

Here is an update on the discussion. Mod's are puzzled as to why the picture was posted in the first instance. The thread began as a discussion about a meat business (simple overview of the issues). Then a picture appeared of a goat that had been beheaded by a Nihang. Forum members expressed the desire to see it deleted because it was a violent scene. Mod's discussed whether deleting this picture would lead to the need to go through threads removing pics of Gurus and Sants who had been brutally martyred. We would like to be consistent -- but you can see where this would lead. The big question remains -- was the picture posted to wind people up -- which has happened? Or was it posted to make a point? If so, what was the point? Was there a basis in Gurbani for posting the picture. History and tradition can't be believable answers because the thread was not about history or tradition but about a business choice and a personal dilemma in today's world of Sikhi. So, we have to ask -- Is it worth it to have some forum members so dissatisfied about this picture when no apparent good purpose is served? The pic could have been deleted right off using the forum rule regarding excessive negativity.

Good to see that the  tone of the discussion has cooled off, cooled down, whatever it is. 

I don't know what will happen with the picture. We are still very puzzled about its purpose. And we want to be fair.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 15, 2008)

Gurfateh

In India Muslims want that all should eat Halal.Once one guy wanted das to eat it with deception.

Sikhs as presently propogate thing wrongly that Armtidhari should not eat meat tend to force some novice Sikh go to eat Halal.Some intelligent one like the one in Dubai and other followers of Mr Ghugga justify Sikhs eating Halal(Kutha) by saying that Baba Nanak went to Mecca,he should have had Halal.As So Sikhs can eat Halal.As per few Muslim Sects for going to Mecaa one has to shave off the head also and shave the hairs of underarms.So should Sikh do the same?

Muslims in India are aggresive to propogate Halal,they wanted it to be served in railways also.It is served in Pizza hut and subway sandwichs.So we have Sikhs in business for Jhatka and das encourges Hindus and Muslims alike to eat Jhataka.We have green shop and sardar meat shop in Delhi.Other non Halal could be venkies and bromak chicken.Then we have Khub chand and esex form piggery.

If we have to come neaer to outcaste in India,we could set them up meat shops and later convert them to Gurmat.Meating eating and killing is alreadt a part of thier culture.There are good lot of things which Gurmat accept as per culture of native Indians,who are not beheld as Hindus even by upper caste.They aare our main target for conversion.


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 15, 2008)

Very rightly said Vijaydeep Veerji...see...unless..we ..and if at all hindus will...we can have our choice on the table ..provided ..we want to...we cannot always carry a nausea and just ignore ...this helps in the promotion of halal...my point here..all those who have joined this discussion..can provide an input ..if they r thinking over it ..11 pages of this discussion was wasted over misunderstanding ..:inca:

Veers..this is not about my personal venture..i may or may not ..that all depends on the future circumstances..however if we become strict and are obvious about jhatka..just as they r about halal..then i think we can make it ...

the usual expression when discussing jhatka is  " hey whats that  " from hindus and sikhs alike ..

get some good inputs guys ..

Raaj Karega Khalsa


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 15, 2008)

let's be clear of the objective of your question



is it a question to promote jhatka as practice?

is it a question how to create a market based on a religious concept?

is it an market opportunity & feasibility question?

I am still confused.

What aim needs to be achieved ?

list those out first.

as for Vijaydeep ji
<<In India Muslims want that all should eat Halal.>>
please spare us of the conspiracy theories. i am surprised that why you only end up meeting people who want to feed you halal by hook or crook.


just curious....maybe bad luck ?


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 16, 2008)

Gurfateh

Das refered to a debate in Indian Parliament where one Muslim member(das forgot the name) wanted that Halal be served in railways.While one who opped this was Mr S S Ahluwalia.An MP from Bihar.Railways decided to serve egg and fish only.

Das did meet a Muslim butcher in Ibrahimpatanam near Hyderbad,where he tried to kill animal by his own,while Hindu owner of the shop called das and das killed the animal by self. Das anyway never had much debate with Muslims on this ground as they avoided to talk on this issue with das.

They give plea that after blood is out then Animal is beeter to be eaten(while draining blood out is order of Yehove to Abraham in old Testment).We do loose iron what das says.In Nihungs we do drink the fresh blood of the newly killed animal.When das gets the snaps,he will paste them here.

As per Sikh Rahit Maryada this is not banned as yet.

Anway Amar Bhai,would you like to join some business ventrue of Jhataka???


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## bade_ustaad (Aug 16, 2008)

SINGH SOORMEIN Chadde Shikaar, Makhi Gheri Wich Bazaar
  Mari Nahi par Langdi Keeni, SINGH SOORMEIN bahduri Kinni

  Killing defenceless animals is COWARDICE and not Bravery. Killing another human in a battle is a different psychology and mindset, to killing defenceless animals as they do not strike back. How can killing animals for practice as suggested by some scholars be taken as an alternative to whom you will be facing in a battleground. In the battlefield ones opponent is equally intelligent and equipped as the other. This thought is absurd as used by some ignorant scholars. 

  Such acts/thoughts constitute degradation of ones Consciousness. Mercilessness is a sure sign of demotion of life to the Vicious Animal Kingdom and a spiritually punishable act. It is well known that meat eating animals are merciless. They are under their Hukam to kill eat and sleep. According to gurbani …………. Feel free to join them. In the last moments of ones life when one dies with such a conscience/desire, he will take birth in the animal kingdom and be subjected to the same treatment. The choice is yours. Gurbani emphasizes this point time and again.
  Killing is contrary to the teachings of Our Gurus. Raise your consciousness and awareness if you can.

  Ritual Slaughter is forbidden as God needs not appeasing as the killer and being killed are one and the same. Ritual slaughter is forbidden by our Gurus, because such acts are undertaken in the pretence to appease God. Jhatka on the other hand and on the same lines is to appease oneself. How can one method of killing be acceptable and other not. 

  Islam flourished among the Nomads in the Middle East. Each tribe followed the rituals of their own tribe to kill animals. Islam, in order to unify the system under one umbrella devised this tactic and enforced their view that all killings will be done only in the name of Allah.

  Hindus on the other hand were more conscious. The sacred text they recite implies to the fact that  “O Lord we are fully aware of what we are doing and we take full responsibility for our actions. We stand fully accountable for our acts. In the future should this animal need our sacrifice we will willingly oblige”. This is an indication of a higher state of consciousness. Incidentally, Hindu way of sacrifice is Jhatka. 

  It appears that those illiterate nomads were either too smart or too dumb to follow their Prophet. In either case they were unified on one stance. Comparatively Sikhs of today are too dumb to understand their Gurus message. Guru tells them  “Do not eat Halaal” as it is done to appease god.  Instead of understanding Gurus reasoning they dig an alternative path. You kill to satisfy your own urges, it is your own Karmas. As you sow, so shall you reap is the message of our Gurus. Do not be misled. Do not let anyone fool you. Bear in mind that the promoters of such acts are themselves vegetarians and are digging a deep pit for others. They preach different to what they themselves practice. They are Demons is Disguise. They are your worst enemies.

  Plants too have a life but carries a lesser punishment and is compensated by Naam Simran. The example of the sugarcane is to show the *simple minded* that even if you are as humble and sweet as a sugarcane in your actions and karmas, because you have not done Naam Simran. Like the sugarcane you will still be subjected to the fate similar to  that of the sugarcane. Some simple minded scholars take the literal sense. Guru is emphasizing here the importance of  Naam Simran and using the context of humbleness and sweetness of the sugarcane. Some ignorant due to their agyaanta use it to demonstrate the plight of the plant in comparison to killing of animals. 

  We are all humans and yet we are different. This is due to the level of  our Consciousness. Those with elevated consciousness become Bhagats, Sadhus and Saints and leave this realm. Others will bounce up and down like a yoyo hopping up and down in lower lives and consciousness. 

  Bhagat Sadhna, who ran a family business of a butchery gave up his business in the pursuit of Naam. The effect of  Naam Simran  is such that Sadhna from being a Butcher, after being made to realise that his actions were  incorrect he became a Bhagat and is honoured in SGGS.  I wonder why Naam Simran has no effect on those so called Sikhs that seem to promote / mislead others into a ditch.


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## spnadmin (Aug 16, 2008)

Yes. And thank you for teaching lessons that I may not always have remembered.


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## kds1980 (Aug 16, 2008)

bade_ustaad said:


> SINGH SOORMEIN Chadde Shikaar, Makhi Gheri Wich Bazaar
> Mari Nahi par Langdi Keeni, SINGH SOORMEIN bahduri Kinni
> 
> Killing defenceless animals is COWARDICE and not Bravery. Killing another human in a battle is a different psychology and mindset, to killing defenceless animals as they do not strike back. How can killing animals for practice as suggested by some scholars be taken as an alternative to whom you will be facing in a battleground. In the battlefield ones opponent is equally intelligent and equipped as the other. This thought is absurd as used by some ignorant scholars.
> ...



This thread is not whether to eat meat or not

here is a 43 page discussion on Meat issue with inputs from many people.If you have any arguement then put it in that discussion after reading the discussion

http://www.sikhism.us/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 16, 2008)

<<Anway Amar Bhai,would you like to join some business ventrue of Jhataka???>>

thank you vijaydeep ji

i work in more profitable business, monetary as well as spiritually


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## kds1980 (Aug 17, 2008)

> Do not bend rules of Sikhism to suit you.



Its better if you study sikhism and then teach it to others.I advise you to have one on debate with bhai Vijaydeep singh on this subject as he has great knowledge of sikh scripture's and practical knowledge too.Both these things are very important


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## pk70 (Aug 17, 2008)

( quote Kds 1980) Its better if you study Sikhism and then teach it to others......."

*Kds1980 Ji,
 With due respect, may I ask you a question? how do you know bade-ustaad haven't studied Sikhism?  I am a little baffled to see your questioning  about some one's knowledge.*


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## kds1980 (Aug 17, 2008)

pk70 said:


> ( quote Kds 1980) Its better if you study Sikhism and then teach it to others......."
> 
> *Kds1980 Ji,
> With due respect, may I ask you a question? how do you know bade-ustaad haven't studied Sikhism?  I am a little baffled to see your questioning  about some one's knowledge.*



PK 70 ji

With due respect too I want to also tell you that I am also frustrated by the people who again and again blame meat eating sikhs as Bending rules of sikhism.While majority of sikhs who studied sikhism unbiasedly know that meat was Never an issue in sikhism.
I gently requested him to put his inputs in the thread "fools who wrangle over flesh"
As many people has written on that thread about their opinion and knowledge which they have.Even Raj khalsa requested him that this thread is not about meat Eating.But he is not interested in all these things.

Just tell me One Thing why every time there is thread on jhatka then vegetarians sikhs jump in preaching their vegetarianism.I have hardly seen meat eating sikhs jumping in threads which promote vegetarianism.

It is well known fact that khalsa sikhs hunted and ate meat.Rehat maryada also does not prohibit jhatka

Infact 1n 1980 there was a hukamnama that amritdhari's too can eat jhatka meat.

Then on what basis fanatic vegetarian sikhs blame that meat eating sikhs are bending rule of sikhism?


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## pk70 (Aug 17, 2008)

Just tell me One Thing why every time there is thread on jhatka then vegetarians sikhs jump in preaching their vegetarianism.I have hardly seen meat eating sikhs jumping in threads which promote vegetarianism.(quote kds1980 Ji)

*Kds1980 ji
I understand what do you mean; however, let me share with you the same experience with non vegetarians. On this very thread, amarsanghera ji and I just tried to do something with the picture that shows a violent action due to  the consideration of small children. Neither amarsanghera ji nor I wrote a single word against meat eating or Jhatka. As you read already, I do believe, many of the non vegitarians started bringing down all kinds of examples which should have brought in only if some one was apossing meat. No one was apposing  that but they kept throughing irrelevent stuff to the end. A simple request got turned into sour arguments. If you dont mind, let me say that, even being in frustration, still we should avoid any harshness on any one as possible as we can.( as It is applicable to me too) Thanks.*


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## spnadmin (Aug 18, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *...  let me say that, even being in frustration, still we should avoid any harshness on any one as possible as we can.( as It is applicable to me too) Thanks.*



Pk70 ji has said this better than I can. So I am quoting him.

Forum members a warning  to avoid negativity and to avoid judging the spiritual status of individual participants in this debate. The debate is about jhatka. As such it is hard to separate jhatka from a debate on eating meat/not eating meat. But it is not impossible. Try to be relevant and not judgemental. Any further statements that shame individual members rather than add information and understanding to the conversation are subject to immediate deletion.

Thank youl.


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## Randip Singh (Aug 18, 2008)

Firstly this discussion is about Jhatka. If you have nothing to say about the topic I suggest you DO NOT post here, DO NOT turn this into a meat vege debate. I will reply to your post once and any further posts turning this into a meat vege debate will be deleted.




bade_ustaad said:


> SINGH SOORMEIN Chadde Shikaar, Makhi Gheri Wich Bazaar





bade_ustaad said:


> Mari Nahi par Langdi Keeni, SINGH SOORMEIN bahduri Kinni




You do not have a monopoly on Sikhism so please stop emotional blackmail.



bade_ustaad said:


> Killing defenceless animals is COWARDICE and not Bravery. Killing another human in a battle is a different psychology and mindset, to killing defenceless animals as they do not strike back. How can killing animals for practice as suggested by some scholars be taken as an alternative to whom you will be facing in a battleground. In the battlefield ones opponent is equally intelligent and equipped as the other. This thought is absurd as used by some ignorant scholars.




You have scientific and factual evidence to prove this?

Is killing a defenceless plant that cannot even make a noise or run away bravery?



bade_ustaad said:


> Such acts/thoughts constitute degradation of ones Consciousness. Mercilessness is a sure sign of demotion of life to the Vicious Animal Kingdom and a spiritually punishable act. It is well known that meat eating animals are merciless. They are under their Hukam to kill eat and sleep. According to gurbani …………. Feel free to join them. In the last moments of ones life when one dies with such a conscience/desire, he will take birth in the animal kingdom and be subjected to the same treatment. The choice is yours. Gurbani emphasizes this point time and again.




Please stop this emotional blackmail. You have no evidence for this.

Gurbani does not emphasise this point.



bade_ustaad said:


> Killing is contrary to the teachings of Our Gurus. Raise your consciousness and awareness if you can.




No evidence for this. Please back up with facts.



bade_ustaad said:


> Ritual Slaughter is forbidden as God needs not appeasing as the killer and being killed are one and the same. Ritual slaughter is forbidden by our Gurus, because such acts are undertaken in the pretence to appease God. Jhatka on the other hand and on the same lines is to appease oneself. How can one method of killing be acceptable and other not.




Jhatka means one blow. It is NOT ritual slaughter.



bade_ustaad said:


> Islam flourished among the Nomads in the Middle East. Each tribe followed the rituals of their own tribe to kill animals. Islam, in order to unify the system under one umbrella devised this tactic and enforced their view that all killings will be done only in the name of Allah.




Evidence of this and how is this relevant to the topic?



bade_ustaad said:


> Hindus on the other hand were more conscious. The sacred text they recite implies to the fact that “O Lord we are fully aware of what we are doing and we take full responsibility for our actions. We stand fully accountable for our acts. In the future should this animal need our sacrifice we will willingly oblige”. This is an indication of a higher state of consciousness. Incidentally, Hindu way of sacrifice is Jhatka.




Your point is?




bade_ustaad said:


> It appears that those illiterate nomads were either too smart or too dumb to follow their Prophet. In either case they were unified on one stance. Comparatively Sikhs of today are too dumb to understand their Gurus message. Guru tells them “Do not eat Halaal” as it is done to appease god. Instead of understanding Gurus reasoning they dig an alternative path. You kill to satisfy your own urges, it is your own Karmas. As you sow, so shall you reap is the message of our Gurus. Do not be misled. Do not let anyone fool you. Bear in mind that the promoters of such acts are themselves vegetarians and are digging a deep pit for others. They preach different to what they themselves practice. They are Demons is Disguise. They are your worst enemies.




Keep it civil. Please stop the emotional blackmail. You have no evidence.




bade_ustaad said:


> Plants too have a life but carries a lesser punishment and is compensated by Naam Simran. The example of the sugarcane is to show the *simple minded* that even if you are as humble and sweet as a sugarcane in your actions and karmas, because you have not done Naam Simran. Like the sugarcane you will still be subjected to the fate similar to that of the sugarcane. Some simple minded scholars take the literal sense. Guru is emphasizing here the importance of Naam Simran and using the context of humbleness and sweetness of the sugarcane. Some ignorant due to their agyaanta use it to demonstrate the plight of the plant in comparison to killing of animals.




Diatribe and no evidence. Please supply quotes that killing a plant is less harmful in Karma in Sikhi? This is Vaishnav mat.



bade_ustaad said:


> We are all humans and yet we are different. This is due to the level of our Consciousness. Those with elevated consciousness become Bhagats, Sadhus and Saints and leave this realm. Others will bounce up and down like a yoyo hopping up and down in lower lives and consciousness.




What is your point in this discussion?



bade_ustaad said:


> Bhagat Sadhna, who ran a family business of a butchery gave up his business in the pursuit of Naam. The effect of Naam Simran is such that Sadhna from being a Butcher, after being made to realise that his actions were incorrect he became a Bhagat and is honoured in SGGS. I wonder why Naam Simran has no effect on those so called Sikhs that seem to promote / mislead others into a ditch.




Evidence please that Sadhna gave up butchery please?


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## Randip Singh (Aug 18, 2008)

All meat vege debates are to be conducted here. 

http://www.sikhism.us/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

Do not derails topics please!


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 18, 2008)

Gurfateh


bade_ustaad said:


> It does not matter who you are. You too are part of the creation. As per your Karmas your Vichaar shall be done.
> 
> ਅਸੰਖ ਮੂਰਖ ਅੰਧ ਘੋਰ ॥Asaŉkẖ mūrakẖ anḏẖ gẖor.
> Countless fools, blinded by ignorance.
> ...


 
ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਕਾਰ ॥Jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai sā*ī bẖalī kār.
Whatever pleases You is the only good done,

ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥੧੮॥Ŧū saḏā salāmaṯ nirankār. ||18||
You, Eternal and Formless One. ||18|| 

All what God wants happen and that is good. Jattism trys to highjack Sikhism without knowing the God.


Coming back to Jhataka.Das once hear some persons talking to beat the butcher who was having the Gurbani autido cassattes.

Das is also of the opinions that as it happens in Nihung Chhavanis,we could have teaching clasess for Jhataka in the Sikh Missionary collages.Or say some special schools for that.More input on this is needed.


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## bade_ustaad (Aug 18, 2008)

Mindless Post Deleted


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## bade_ustaad (Aug 18, 2008)

Insulting Post Deleted


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 18, 2008)

bade_ustaad said:


> *Are you soooo dumb. Clearly you do not understand anything at all. What a waste of life.  It shall be pointless to respond to you.* _Go seek the company of a Sadhu/Saint and educate youself._


Insult deleted


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## Sinister (Aug 18, 2008)

these posts are ridiculous...not really worth the effort to respond to a troll and feed them undue attention

But, I will:

the last thing we need in this world is people of supposed "higher consciousness" telling people of supposed "lower consciouness" how to live their lives and what to do....its called facism

cheers


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## Randip Singh (Aug 18, 2008)

Please refrain from trading insults with Bade Ustad. The Mod team will deal with him.

Do not lower yourself to this level.

Thanks


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## kds1980 (Aug 18, 2008)

Here is some anti sikh literature for you bade ustaad
Sardar Banda Singh Bahadur
Guru Gobind Singh went to his hermitage. Madhodas was away. The Guru ordered his disciples to kill a few goats of the Bairagi and cook meat there and then. The matter was reported to Bairagi.


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 18, 2008)

kds1980 said:


> Here is some anti sikh literature for you bade ustaad
> Sardar Banda Singh Bahadur
> Guru Gobind Singh went to his hermitage. Madhodas was away. The Guru ordered his disciples to kill a few goats of the Bairagi and cook meat there and then. The matter was reported to Bairagi.


Take down his post!!!!! :inca:VERY INSULTING!!!! :shifty:

:ice:


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 18, 2008)

:wink:

Vijaydeep ji

once again you hear a lot of people doing a lot of things.

I have no idea what you want to prove


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 18, 2008)

I really dont understand how to explain..with all due respect bade ustaadji..or anyone else who is offended ..pls understand ..this is not for vegeterianism...

i will repeat myself...till the 5th PAATSHAAHI we would have been strict vegeterians however after Bir Ras was influenced during the 6thPaatshaahi...we could not remain strict vegeterians..

Kds ji i understand how u feel....sometimes i feel discussions here create unnecessary brawls ..some people want to take this discussion to some utopian bibilical concept of 'Thou shall not kill " 

Catching words ..showing someone down..seems to be the motto.. either done in a smart manner or crude manner ..

I have not much to say ..except that ..i dont think this discussion can enlighten anyone ..but yes it will surely create differences...i dont think people want to accept existance of others who can be different ..these r the people who can re write sikh history ..

anyways best of luck to all of you....Vijaydeepji can we have some more inputs from Shri Dasam Granth ji ...


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 18, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> I really dont understand how to explain..with all due respect bade ustaadji..or anyone else who is offended ..pls understand ..this is not for vegeterianism...
> 
> i will repeat myself...till the 5th PAATSHAAHI we would have been strict vegeterians however after Bir Ras was influenced during the 6thPaatshaahi...we could not remain strict vegeterians..


Didn't Guru Nanak cook meat in kurukshetra on the day of the eclipse?


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 18, 2008)

Bhai Bhagat singhji you could be right..i think i have once come across some text mentioning Pritham Paatshaah Guru Nanak Devji Maharaj eating deer meat..i dont know if this was the same incident ..


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## spnadmin (Aug 18, 2008)

Bhagat ji

It is destined for the Trash Can. The post (previouisly #154 has been deleted).

*Participants on this thread, please note: I am now moving any post on this thread that is about vegetarianism per se to the Fools Who Wrangle Thread. Sometimes it is hard to determine whether that is where a particular post should go because the dividing line is thin. if you think I made a wrong call, just let me know and I will review my decision.*

Please continue the discussion on Jhatka knowing that we are encouraging debate and not abuse. Sat Sri Akaal. 

Antonia


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 18, 2008)

This was a wise decision aad ji ...i thank you for this ..am highly obliged...

*The decision came from decision in leaders and happened rather quickly.  *Antonia

SRI Akaal Sahaay


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 18, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> It is destined for the Trash Can. The post (previouisly #154 has been deleted).
> 
> ...


I honestly don't remember what I wrote. But if it is *has* to be deleted then I respect that.

EDIT: OH, I see what you did. Good move!


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## spnadmin (Aug 18, 2008)

Now here my update is as follows: A number of posts have been moved. 
*
Some on the forum know that I was hampered by a bad internet connection at the seashore. I am tired of talking about this so don't inquire. However, I did not keep up with this thread as perhaps I should have. When going over the earlier posts, those immediately following the controversial pic of the Nihung beheading a goat, I noticed a lot of strong language and bad spirit. In other words, several of us were not nirbhao nirvair. Those posts are still standing because the tone of most of you participating in the discussion for the most part** did improve after an early warning. Please avoid direct personal insults. Debate the issues not the person. Thanks *


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## spnadmin (Aug 18, 2008)

*I guess I have to repeat this -- discussions of jhatka will remain in this thread. Discussions of vegetarianism will be moved/have been moved to Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh and Meat.*

Antonia.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 18, 2008)

<<some people want to take this discussion to some utopian bibilical concept of 'Thou shall not kill " >>

thou shall not kill, unless

1. You got a phone call from God to go kick some butt
2. You are reaaaaaaally hungry and KFC is too far
3. the other guy refused to scratch ur back 
4. You are a comic super hero
5. Your Coffeee machine broke in the morning and You hate being all day without the Ethiopian Blend
6. The target is ur Boss
7.............

pls feel free to add


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## spnadmin (Aug 18, 2008)

:rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!:


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 18, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> <<some people want to take this discussion to some utopian bibilical concept of 'Thou shall not kill " >>
> 
> thou shall not kill, unless
> ...
> 4. You are a comic super hero


NOW YOU'RE TALKING!!! :happy:


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## singhranpret85 (Aug 18, 2008)

DELETED >>>do not discuss meat here.


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## singhranpret85 (Aug 18, 2008)

Please discuss meat at fools wrangle over flesh.http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=uzrmxKUg0xc


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 18, 2008)

aad ji, your work isn't complete yet. :yes:


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 18, 2008)

Aad Ji and other mods, please feel free to move my post. :yes:


singhranpret85 said:


> y do we hav to eat meat at all i dont want to get into any discussion about eating meat or not


Well, you are!


singhranpret85 said:


> i just want to ask u how many of u are in favour of the way they behead goats there and say its proper........


all non-vegetarians and me! 



singhranpret85 said:


> tell me one thing what did guru maharaj say about his khalsa...


khalsa can eat meat if they want to :wink: unless it ritual meat.


singhranpret85 said:


> i think it includes that a gurus sikh will never oppress someone who is weak..


Do you eat vegetables? How about grains?

BTW cows are stronger than humans.


singhranpret85 said:


> look at that goat they behead... two people hold its feet and then 1 one kills it how many of u think its human to do it....


ya humans are doing it so its a human thing.


singhranpret85 said:


> this jhatka can be compared to halal.........


ooh, in what way?


singhranpret85 said:


> people say our father guru gobind singh ji used to do it.........


sure Why not?


singhranpret85 said:


> can we think of the time when guru nanak stopped pandits to kill goat when they were preparing for janeu preparations......


I think he was telling them to stop because noone (Guru Nanak) was going to wear the jenaeeo so preparations were pointless.
Guru Nanak cooked meat in kurukshetra during an eclipse.


singhranpret85 said:


> y would the same father do two different things...


One kills the other cooks then both enjoy! :yes:
kidding.


singhranpret85 said:


> one more thing i would like to ask u is give it a thought if we say guru gobind singh ji used to do shikaar can we comapre ourselves to him ????


sure, he's a human, you are a human and i am a human. That's one comparison.


singhranpret85 said:


> we know he was aap parmeshwar.......


uh... ya... :}:

right! :crazy:


singhranpret85 said:


> and whatever he did meant something.........


yep!


singhranpret85 said:


> and moreover according to me if u have love in ur heart u wont kill these innocent animals just for eating them....


Ya its hard eating vegetables too, if you have love for plants. I understand.


singhranpret85 said:


> ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਅ ਜੁ ਮਾਰਹਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਕਹਤੇ ਹਹਿ ਜੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ॥
> Kabeer, they oppress living beings and kill them, and call it proper.
> 
> ਦਫਤਰੁ ਦਈ ਜਬ ਕਾਢਿ ਹੈ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਕਉਨੁ ਹਵਾਲੁ ॥੧੯੯॥
> ...


 very nice quote, a bit out of place though. Well, actually your whole post is a bit out of place. You should discuss it in "Fools who wrangle over flesh" (i think that's the title)


singhranpret85 said:


> if u want to look at the jhatka video have a lok at you tube u will get it and see how on our gurus name animals are being beheaded which i would call similar to halal there isnt much difference in them.......


Halal is very different. But ya jhatka's cool (this comes from a strict lacto-vegetarian BTW), which is why some people want to promote it. 


singhranpret85 said:


> bhul chuk di maafi
> waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh..


chalo maaf kita, kidding mate
waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 18, 2008)

singhranpret85 said:


> here is a link to a video must seee discussing about meat and jhatka.............
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GsNakkvD58
> here is a link to video of jhatka which is not appropriate for everyone
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=uzrmxKUg0xc


That video is one hour long and it starts off with amritdhari singhs not living a good life. at what time can I find the discussion on meat?


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## spnadmin (Aug 18, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Aad Ji and other mods, please feel free to move my post. :yes:



*Basically this is how I made the decision "to move" or "not to move" someone's comments.  If a comment was essentially about jhatka it was not moved even if the word "vegetable" or "vegetarian" was included somewhere. Same thing when the word "meat" was used. If the word "goat" was used in the context of jhatka, the comment was not moved. However, If a comment was about the spiritual or ethical merits or demerits of eating meat, then the post was moved over to "Fools Who Wrangle."

The examples you cited 2 posts ago were either about jhatka, or goats and jhatka, or about beheading goats, or about Sri Guru Gobind Singh vis a vis  the khalsa and goats. So that is why I did not move them. Whew!
*


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## unbiasedview (Aug 19, 2008)

DO NOT Discuss Meat eating here >>>follow he fools wrangle over flesh link. THANKS


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## singhranpret85 (Aug 19, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> That video is one hour long and it starts off with amritdhari singhs not living a good life. at what time can I find the discussion on meat?


 
have patience veerji ...... akhand path takes 3 days and for understanding guru granth sahib ji even one life is not sufficient......this is video of mere 1 hour but if u listen to it i am sure u will understand what he is trying to say.
waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh


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## kds1980 (Aug 19, 2008)

vijaydeep Singh said:


> Gurfateh
> 
> Das extends the disccusiin as in todays Hindustan times we have bihar govt. encouraging the eating of rats.Das has seen people eating loctus also.In far east such things are ore common.Can as a Sikh we encourage this also as varity rather cheap varity of food.



I think this issue needs another thread

http://www.sikhism.us/general-discussion/22742-food-crisis-try-rats-says-bihar.html#post85589


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 19, 2008)

singhranpret85 said:


> have patience veerji ...... akhand path takes 3 days and for understanding guru granth sahib ji even one life is not sufficient......this is video of mere 1 hour but if u listen to it i am sure u will understand what he is trying to say.
> waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh


Ive got more important things to do than listen to old babey telling me what to eat.
Thanks anyway! :happy:


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## spnadmin (Aug 19, 2008)

kds1980 said:


> I think this issue needs another thread
> 
> http://www.sikhism.us/general-discussion/22742-food-crisis-try-rats-says-bihar.html#post85589



*Post moved. At your service. *


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## spnadmin (Aug 19, 2008)

unbiasedview said:


> DO NOT Discuss Meat eating here >>>follow he fools wrangle over flesh link. THANKS



* Please refer to my explanation in Post 157. *


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 21, 2008)

I was searching for rituals related to slaughter ..and have come acorss several muslim and jewish websites like www.*muslim**consumer*group.com an educational organization for Muslims about Halal food, and to provide Halal certification ...there have been a strong insistance and presence of information relating to halal and kosher ..to such an extent ..and besides ..location finders ..where they could get halal kosher certified retaurants anywhere in the world !!

So this is the extent to which they can carry their faith ..and here ..we r still limping ..to even anything productive discussed ..forget geting started .. I shall be grateful to  Shri Siromani Gurudwara Parbandhak Commitee for making an effort refer to http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_407297,0008.htm

i shall infact paste this info here :
Jhatka vs halal: Sikh body raises meaty issue 
Manpreet Randhawa
Jalandhar, October 7 

If the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee (SGPC) has its way, all hotels, restaurants and fast-food chains will soon have to carry displays specifying the kind of meat they serve: halal or jhatka.

SGPC honorary secretary Manjit Singh Calcutta has said he would write to the Union government to issue a notification in this regard because the consumption of halal meat is strictly prohibited for Sikhs.

"It is, in fact, one of the cardinal sins for a Sikh to consume halal meat," said Calcutta. "In case a Sikh does so, he has to be re-baptised. Hence, it's important for eating joints to display what meat is served”.

Akal Takht Jathedar Joginder Singh Vedanti has also taken note of the matter and called upon all Sikhs to avoid consuming halal meat.

Arun, an official representing McDonald's here, said the fast-food chain had been using halal meat all over India. "We never knew its consumption was prohibited for Sikhs," he said. "Since the matter has come to our notice now, we have decided to inform our headquarters in the US. Once we receive a direction from them on displaying the kind of meat we serve, it will be done."

J.S. Grover of Nirula's, Delhi, said that most of the non-vegetarian items at their outlets were cut and processed with the help of machines. "Hence, it's difficult to ascertain whether it's halal or jhatka meat," he said. Grover added if the Federation of Hotel and Restaurant Association of India (FHRAI) issued guidelines in this regard, he would abide by it.

FHRAI secretary general Sham Suri said since the SGPC had decided to knock on the Centre's door, the association would await an official notification on the issue. So far, hotels, restaurants and fast-food joints are governed by the Prevention of Food Adulteration Act, said Suri.

Meanwhile, the SGPC's stand has already found sympathisers. "In Europe and other countries one gets certified halal and jhatka meat so that nobody's religious sentiments are hurt," says G.S. Lamba, editor, Sant Sipahi magazine. "It is shocking how the industry can be indifferent to the sentiments of Sikhs."

Interestingly, the issue is not a new one. It is learnt that on October 9, 1938, then MLA Sampooran Singh, who was also a member of the SGPC, had moved a resolution in the Punjab assembly that all SGPC members must support the Jhatka Bill.

Ninety-six SGPC members in the House had unanimously supported the resolution.
______________________________________________________________________________

This is now in our hands ..this is our battle...we need to make a choice ..should we spend time grumbling about photos ..believing small children dont have things to look at and would log into discussion ..hey kids if u reading this ..GET BACK TO YOR HOMEWORK ..!!!

Do we want to get to the point or just make all the attempts to take the discussion the other way ?? Its Our choice ...

I am here and feel something positive will come out of this discussion..rather than tantrums !


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 21, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> I was searching for rituals related to slaughter ..and have come acorss several muslim and jewish websites like www.*muslim**consumer*group.com an educational organization for Muslims about Halal food, and to provide Halal certification ...there have been a strong insistance and presence of information relating to halal and kosher ..to such an extent ..and besides ..location finders ..where they could get halal kosher certified retaurants anywhere in the world !!


Our religion is different veer ji, its not a list of Do's and Dont's. 
But I see where you are going, we do need to educate SIkh masses.


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 21, 2008)

Yes..we do need to educate ..and why just Sikhs ..Hindus ..Buddhists ..all the religions of Hindustan..since none of them have ever belived in killing by torture ..


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 21, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> Yes..we do need to educate ..and why just Sikhs ..Hindus ..Buddhists ..all the religions of Hindustan..since none of them have ever belived in killing by torture ..


well Sikhs would be the first step, then we can move on from there.


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 21, 2008)

thats for sure..but we need quantity to voice in..i m not saying that we cannot ..but u know how its working with us or for that sake ...any other religion of indian origin..more leg pullers ...there is huge section of throat slashing vegeterians amongst us ..hindus ..buddhists ..they will want to kill us for discussing this ..or have smart talkers ..we have seen so much of them on the net ..


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 21, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> thats for sure..but we need quantity to voice in..i m not saying that we cannot ..but u know how its working with us or for that sake ...any other religion of indian origin..more leg pullers ...there is huge section of throat slashing vegeterians amongst us ..hindus ..buddhists ..they will want to kill us for discussing this ..or have smart talkers ..we have seen so much of them on the net ..


Lol to all vegetarians, this is a message from a fellow vegetarian:happy:.
Meat is safe!!

...that should hold em. :rofl!!:

Anyway, what are you planning on doing exactly? I mean how are you gona get jhatka out there?


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 21, 2008)

Presentations ..all those images ..Dharmak references ..i been talking to veterinary docs who have given me some idea about scientific studies ...what i want to look into is..in fact a friend's already dunn it in delhi..a series of jhatka shops ..get more of the downtrodden groups employed ..some tribals ..balmiks , sikligars..i wish i could get support of religious preachers ..I dont have any Nihang Chchavni in Indore ..i wish we had ..they can train us for Jhatka ..and i feel comfortable with them ..they r a great help ..we will need to drill this in people's heads ..all we can do is try ..there were people trying to take this as my business venture ..man .i m a software guy ..happy with my job..but i want to go this way since .this is just not a business ..but something i feel seriously for ..its hurting my pride...we sikhs in India are quite dominant in so many streams ..why cant we get a choice ? in this country atleast where this theory is a part of the culture ..and in fact why just us ..all who feel ..we dont accept halal should voice in ...


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 21, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> Presentations ..all those images ..Dharmak references ..i been talking to veterinary docs who have given me some idea about scientific studies ...what i want to look into is..in fact a friend's already dunn it in delhi..a series of jhatka shops ..get more of the downtrodden groups employed ..some tribals ..balmiks , sikligars..i wish i could get support of religious preachers ..I dont have any Nihang Chchavni in Indore ..i wish we had ..they can train us for Jhatka ..and i feel comfortable with them ..they r a great help ..we will need to drill this in people's heads ..all we can do is try ..there were people trying to take this as my business venture ..man .i m a software guy ..happy with my job..but i want to go this way since .this is just not a business ..but something i feel seriously for ..its hurting my pride...we sikhs in India are quite dominant in so many streams ..why cant we get a choice ? in this country atleast where this theory is a part of the culture ..and in fact why just us ..all who feel ..we dont accept halal should voice in ...


Oh, and make jhatka out of the cows that are roaming the streets. :}{}{}:
There are people who want to get rid of them, maybe you can join those guys.


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 21, 2008)

well i dont eat beef:inca: ..nor does my Sanatan Sikhi permit me to ...so beef's off the plate !:happy:


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 21, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> well i dont eat beef:inca: ..nor does my Sanatan Sikhi permit me to ...so beef's off the plate !:happy:


Well, if you're gona promote jhatka then I suggest you promote the eating of beef as well. In India people NEED to start eating beef otherwise, Hindustan will come to be known as Cowistan.


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## dalsingh (Aug 21, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Well, if you're gona promote jhatka then I suggest you promote the eating of beef as well. In India people NEED to start eating beef otherwise, Hindustan will come to be known as Cowistan.


 
I don't know how you would jhatka a cow. You'd need a big @ss gandasa with a 15 stone muscleman or something!


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 21, 2008)

dalsingh said:


> I don't know how you would jhatka a cow. You'd need a big @ss gandasa with a 15 stone muscleman or something!


Oh then do it the good old american way. :happy:
Slaughterhouse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The slaughterhouse process differs by species and region and may be controlled by civil law as well as religious laws such as Kosher and Halal laws. A typical procedure follows:


Cows are received by truck or rail from a ranch, farm, or feedlot.
Cows are herded into holding pens.
Cows receive a preslaughter inspection.
Cows are usually knocked unconscious by applying an electric shock of 300 volts and 2 amps to the back of the head, effectively stunning the animal.[8] If unsuccessful, secondary methods include the use of a captive bolt pistol to the front of the cow's head. Livestock are also rendered unconscious by pneumatic or cartridge-fired captive bolt stunning and CO2/inert gas stunning. (This step is prohibited under strict application of Halal and Kashrut codes.)
Animals are hung upside down by one of their hind legs on the processing line.
The main arteries and veins are severed with a knife, mainly in the neck, and the cow's blood drains, causing death through exsanguination.
The hide/skin/plumage is removed by down pullers, side pullers and fisting off the pelt (sheep and goats)
The internal organs are removed and inspected for internal parasites and signs of disease. The guts, referred to as viscera, are separated for inspection from the heart and lungs, referred to as the "pluck." Livers are separated for inspection, tongues are dropped or removed from the head, and the head is sent down the line on the head hooks or head racks for inspection.
The carcass is inspected by a government inspector for safety. (This inspection is performed by the Food Safety Inspection Service in the U.S., and CFIA in Canada.)
Carcasses are subjected to intervention to reduce levels of bacteria. Common interventions are steam, hot water, and organic acids. Carcasses are chilled to prevent the growth of microorganisms and to reduce meat deterioration while the meat awaits distribution.
The chilled carcass is broken down into subprimals and primals for boxed meat unless customer specifies for swinging sides of meat. Beef and horse carcasses are always split in half and then quartered, pork is split into sides only and goat/veal/mutton and lamb is left whole
The remaining carcass may be further processed to extract any residual traces of meat, usually termed mechanically recovered meat, which may be used for human or animal consumption.
Waste materials such as lard or tallow, are sent to a rendering plant.
The waste water, consisting of blood and fecal matter, generated by the slaughtering process is sent to a waste water treatment plant.
The meat is transported to distribution centers that then distribute to retail markets.
____________________________________________________________________________________
as long as animals don't feel pain, I don't think Guru ji would disapprove.


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## dalsingh (Aug 21, 2008)

I heard for "proper" jhatka you have to take the siir clean off with a single blow. There can not even be a single vein attached when you do this or it become patka. Apparently.


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 21, 2008)

dalsingh said:


> I heard for "proper" jhatka you have to take the siir clean off with a single blow. There can not even be a single vein attached when you do this or it become patka. Apparently.


When jhatka came out, they didn't have a captive bolt pistol. 
This is the jhatka of the new age! or patka whatever works best!!


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## dalsingh (Aug 21, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> When jhatka came out, they didn't have a captive bolt pistol.
> This is the jhatka of the new age! or patka whatever works best!!


 
Wouldn't this be the same as spearing the thing in the head?


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 21, 2008)

dalsingh said:


> Wouldn't this be the same as spearing the thing in the head?


Maybe. 
But the pistol will kill the animal without letting it feel pain, which works for me! :yes:


"Spearing the thing in the head" ? I wouldn't know, I have never been speared in the head... come to think of it, I've never been killed by a captive bolt pistol either.


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## Saint Soldier (Aug 24, 2008)

*u ppl got really good humour.:rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!:*
*the question being raised by me is that what if someone eats halal not intentionally but by mistake is there any process to undergo after that?:yes:*


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## Sinister (Aug 24, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> *u ppl got really good humour.:rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!:*
> *the question being raised by me is that what if someone eats halal not intentionally but by mistake is there any process to undergo after that?:yes:*


 

yeah... you have to put your head through both your legs and kiss your own butt...salvation shall be yours 


PS: "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" - Orwell


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## Saint Soldier (Aug 24, 2008)

*sinister i wish i could do that:happy:*


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## Sinister (Aug 24, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> *sinister i wish i could do that:happy:*


 
Now! Now!, lets not jump to conclusions... why dont you give it a try? 


PS: just pullin your leg bro..you have a good question...ive noticed how sikhi can at times be bent on procedures...guess we dont like chaos
cheers


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 24, 2008)

talking abt chaos.... did you watch Chaos theory?


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 25, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> talking abt chaos.... did you watch Chaos theory?


talking about chaos.... here he comes!! :happy:


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## Saint Soldier (Aug 25, 2008)

*::hey i was expecting an answer from u ppl.:yes::inca:here is my question-*


Originally Posted by *SAINT SOLDIER* 

 
_*



u ppl got really good humour.:rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!:
the question being raised by me is that what if someone eats halal not intentionally but by mistake is there any process to undergo after that?:yes:

Click to expand...

*_


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 25, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> *::hey i was expecting an answer from u ppl.:yes::inca:here is my question-*
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *SAINT SOLDIER*
> ...


I *was* going to answer but I thought you were kidding around.
There is no process. Someone ate it? no biggie! 
In fact, in the SGGS there is no instruction about kutha. So looking at it that way, you're good. 
But in the Khalsa discipline, it states one cannot eat kutha so if one did, then one shouldn't do it again.


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## Randip Singh (Aug 26, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> *u ppl got really good humour.:rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!:*
> *the question being raised by me is that what if someone eats halal not intentionally but by mistake is there any process to undergo after that?:yes:*





Same process as vegetarian undergoes when he eats meat I guess.  :happy:

PS Your sarcasm is truly breataking :whisling:


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 26, 2008)

Ummm..lets invent a process..as i have done ..i mean ..in mumbai ..before i came to know jhatka ..i have relished non veg at muslim joints...as i started reading Sikhi ..i consume only halal..and for repentence ..i promote jhatka ..well..make it a point educate more and more people on jhatka ..well guys wait for the forthcoming attraction..i going to shoot a video myself of jhatka ..have spoken to a butcher ..here who owns a jhatka mutton shop..now guys what do u want me to do ?  post it here or home deilver u ..i mean on yor personal ids ..the choice is yors ..!!!!:happy:


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 26, 2008)

whoooooooooooooooooo...what a mistake in my previous post .. "as i started reading Sikhi ..i consume only halal " bhul chuk muaaf karni ..i consume only jhatka ..not halal...

SOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY


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## kds1980 (Aug 26, 2008)

You can send me video at my e-mail address

kdsingh98752@yahoo.co.in :happy::happy:


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 26, 2008)

sure kds ji


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## Saint Soldier (Aug 27, 2008)

*WOW rajkhalsa ji thats great.:yes:the picture was enought to scare me *
*but i would like to c the video:yes::happy:*
*best of luck buddy:star:*


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## spnadmin (Aug 27, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> whoooooooooooooooooo...what a mistake in my previous post .. "as i started reading Sikhi ..i consume only halal " bhul chuk muaaf karni ..i consume only jhatka ..not halal...
> 
> SOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY



You know veer ji, I read that and wondered what you were saying -- but then I realized you meant jhatka. It is easy to get mixed up if a lot is happening around you in the background. I think mostly all the readers knew what you meant.:yes:


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 28, 2008)

you r right ..u know i feel..i have got obsessed with the concept...and i feel i would be relieved the day we get the JHATKA certification..wish me luck veers ..i might be able to shoot a video on saturday ...


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## Randip Singh (Aug 28, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> you r right ..u know i feel..i have got obsessed with the concept...and i feel i would be relieved the day we get the JHATKA certification..wish me luck veers ..i might be able to shoot a video on saturday ...



Maybe you could start a new business, "Certified Jhatka" :ice:


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 28, 2008)

see that could be good ..i might be able to look into it in the future  ..but still its not abt my business ..this is about the sentiments of our own brethren..sikh, hindu.. buddhists ...all for whom halal is forbidden the basic reason possibly is compassion...i dont want to sit like a baniya in my shop ..satisfied ..hey i eat and sell jhatka..NO..thats not my goal..my goal..is MY RIGHT ..OUR RIGHT ..WE  have a RIGHT TO DEMAND ..


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## spnadmin (Aug 28, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> see that could be good ..i might be able to look into it in the future  ..but still its not abt my business ..this is about the sentiments of our own brethren..sikh, hindu.. buddhists ...all for whom halal is forbidden the basic reason possibly is compassion...i dont want to sit like a baniya in my shop ..satisfied ..hey i eat and sell jhatka..NO..thats not my goal..my goal..is MY RIGHT ..OUR RIGHT ..WE  have a RIGHT TO DEMAND ..



The suffering is precisely why halal is fobidden. In halal the animal must suffer as a continued appeasement of God that harkens back to the sacrifice of the patriarch Abraham. 

In the kosher slaughter of animals, the animal must not suffer. The knife must be completely free of nicks of any kind, the man who presides must be certified and trained. The objective of kosher slaughter is purity not suffering. Suffering causes impurity.

In jhatka the animal must not suffer. Guruji advises us that we should  endeavor not to cause any part of creation to suffer.


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 28, 2008)

bingo..u said it right aad ji..although kosher is also bleeding the animal to death ..and veerji unless the nerve attached to the brain is not cut ..the animal is bound to feel the sensation of pain agony ..so kosher too doesnt serve our purpose ...by the way thanks for yor post on meditation and OM Ksanti ..its good..atleast for me ..some peace for my ears ..its like ..i m speaking to almost everyone abt JHATKA ..wife, colleagues ..and all who consume non veg ...so this is a good thing to unwind..

Hey Sinisterji what do u use ? i mean i stick to Sukha ...hehehehehe...the nihang way ..


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## rooh (Aug 28, 2008)

*Re: Promoting JHATKA?? What total nonsense*

Please keep Meat debates on Fools Wrangle over flesh thread. This post is about Jhatka, and not the pro's and con's of meat eating.


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 28, 2008)

well u might be aghast...but Sikhi has many things included ..till the 5th Guru ..Sikhi was more Bhakti oriented ..from the 6th Guru militarisation started ..it was slowly gathering pace ..and  the 10TH GURU Maharaj established the KHALSA...this was the Sant Sipahi form of Sikhi...well they couldnt not remain meek and had to be in Bir Ras..i dont know about your reading ..but if you read the History u might understand the reason ...

I totally agree with your point ..we are not a predominantly non vegeterian advocating Panth..how ever there is also a provison for people who consume meat ..


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## kds1980 (Aug 28, 2008)

*Re: Promoting JHATKA?? What total nonsense*



rooh said:


> I am aghast at Sikhs who talk about meat, let alone the methods of killing animals. You mention the 10th Guru presribed Jhatka. What about the 9 preceding Gurus. Did they mention or sanction the eating of animals. I think not as this would go against the whole ethos of the Gurbani. If meat is okay in Sikhism, then why is not dished out in Gurdwaras and why is it that when Sikhs take Amrit, they are required to abstain from meat.
> 
> The gurus prescribed simple liviing in harmony with nature and your environment, which means you take what is miminal. Sikhs who eat meat do not realise that they are really insulting the gurus and their faith and interpret some passages in the Gurbani to suit their own conveniences, namely to appease their palates!!! They have no understanding of their great holy book.
> 
> Most supposed sikhs are truly disillisuioned about who they are and never understand what their religion is about. Its just a label and real Sikhs are very few and far between.



What about previous 9 Guru's?

Guru Nanak Eating Meat

Bhai Mani Singh, Gyan Ratnavali, pg. 123
At Kurukshetra, a great centre of Hindu pilgrimage, where a big fair was being held on the occasion of the solar eclipse. A follower of the Guru offered him deer meat to eat. The Guru who had never made any distinction between one kind of food and another and took whatever was offered to him, did not refuse the courtesies of his devotee. And he allowed him to roast it for his food. 

A History of the Sikh People by Dr. Gopal Singh, World Sikh University Press, Delhi
It first occurs in Bhai Mani Singh's Gyan Ratnavali (pg. 123) which mentions Nanak having been engaged in debate with a Pandit, called Nanau Chand. The deer-meat was, according to this version, brought to him as an offering by a Prince and his consort, who having been dispossessed of their realm, came to him for a blessing. In the dialogue that followed with the Pandit, he is not only convinced of Nanak's logic, but persuades also the fellow Brahmins, basing his argument on the Veda, the Puranas and even the Quran, saying that even the Hindu gods could be propieated since the earliest times only through yagnas in which meat was invariably served, and that it has been the dharma of the Kashatriya Kings since ages to hunt. 
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Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das Eating Meat 

The Sikh Religion, Volume II by Max Arthur Macauliffe
One day the Guru had a meat dinner prepared. Amar Das said, "If the Guru is a searcher of hearts, he must know that I am a Vaishnav and do not touch flesh". The Guru (Guru Angad), knowing this, ordered that dal should be served him. Amar Das then reflected, "The Guru knoweth that meat is forbidden me, so he hath ordered that dal be served me instead." Amar Das then rapidly arrived at the conclusion that any disciple, whose practice differed from that of the Guru, must inevitably fail. He therefore told the cook that if the Guru were kind enough to give him meat, he would partake of it. The Guru, on hearing this, knew that superstition was departing from Amar Das's heart, and he handed him his own dish. When Amar Das had partaken of it, he for the first time felt peace of mind, and as he became further absorbed in his attentions and devotion to the Guru, celestial light dawned on his heart. Thus did he break with the strictest tenet of Vaishnavism and become a follower of the Guru. One day the Guru, in order to further remove Amar Das's prejudices, thus began to instruct him: "The meats it is proper to abstain from are these - Other's wealth, other's wives, slander, envy, covetousness and pride. If any one abstaining from meat is proud on the subject and says, 'I never touch meat,' let him consider that the infant sucks nipples of flesh, that the married man takes home with him a vessel of flesh." Guru Angad then repeated and expounded Guru Nanak's sloks on the subject. He also related to Amar Das the story of Duni Chand and his father, giving in the Life of Guru Nanak. "If you think of it," continued the Guru, "there is life in everything, even in fruits and flowers, so say nothing of flesh; but whatever thou eatest, eat remembering God, and it shall be profitable to thee. Whatever cometh to thee without hurting a fellow creature is nectar, and whatever thou recievest by giving pain is poison. To shatter another's hopes, to calumniate others, and to misappropriate their property is worse than to eat meat." 

Macauliffe collaborated with the most learned Sikhs of his time when he wrote this over 100 years ago. The exact written source of this account is unknown.


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## Randip Singh (Aug 28, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> The suffering is precisely why halal is fobidden. In halal the animal must suffer as a continued appeasement of God that harkens back to the sacrifice of the patriarch Abraham.
> 
> In the kosher slaughter of animals, the animal must not suffer. The knife must be completely free of nicks of any kind, the man who presides must be certified and trained. The objective of kosher slaughter is purity not suffering. Suffering causes impurity.
> 
> In jhatka the animal must not suffer. Guruji advises us that we should  endeavor not to cause any part of creation to suffer.



I think the issue is not about suffereing or pain, but about appeasement. The whole idea of Sacrifice is abhorrent to the Sikh, and Halal/Kosher (and even Bali - Hindu sacrifice), is sacrifice/ritual slaughter.


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## Randip Singh (Aug 28, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> well u might be aghast...but Sikhi has many things included ..till the 5th Guru ..Sikhi was more Bhakti oriented ..from the 6th Guru militarisation started ..it was slowly gathering pace ..and  the 10TH GURU Maharaj established the KHALSA...this was the Sant Sipahi form of Sikhi...well they couldnt not remain meek and had to be in Bir Ras..i dont know about your reading ..but if you read the History u might understand the reason ...
> 
> I totally agree with your point ..we are not a predominantly non vegeterian advocating Panth..how ever there is also a provison for people who consume meat ..



I disagree that Sikhi was more Bhakhti orientated till the 6th Guru. Remember the 2nd Guru established wrestling arenas for his Suikhs to wrestle. Hardly something Bhakta's would do?

Also remeber the Guru's were from a Kshatriya clan (albeit one that jhad lost status), and they were not averse to the ways of the warrior. I am sure all the Guru's from Guru Nanak to the last knew how to defend themselves.


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## Archived_member7 (Aug 29, 2008)

well.. wrestling Akharas are found all over Hindustan and there have been different sects who have established Akharas ..the type of militarisation required to fight the Mughals was organised by Guru Hargobindsinghji Maharaj Chchatvi Paadshahi..and by Dasve Paadshah Guru Gobindsinghji Maharaj ...and none of the previous Gurus had established any military movements ...in fact even Guru Tegh Bahadur Maharaj dint think of military resistance ..His Highness went to the Mughal invader with a dialogue approach 

Now regarding the clan ..The Gurus were of the Khatri clan..Khatris are Kshatriyas who are into business ..its a more combo of a warrior and a baniya ...i myself am one ..i mean dont take it wrongly i m not into the Jaat Paat thing ..but this is to just share some info i have known..


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## spnadmin (Aug 29, 2008)

randip singh said:


> I think the issue is not about suffereing or pain, but about appeasement. The whole idea of Sacrifice is abhorrent to the Sikh, and Halal/Kosher (and even Bali - Hindu sacrifice), is sacrifice/ritual slaughter.


!
Randip ji,

I am not in disagreement whatsoever with your comment. In fact I take it as the basic premise of any differentiation between halal and kosher slaughtering of animals. :yes:

My intention was solely that of adding some details to show how the same act of slaughtering an animal is a distinctly different in approach from one religious tradition to another.

Yes, appeasement of Jehovah is true in both the Muslim and Jewish traditions -- but one, the Muslim tradition, *requires *suffering to appease; and the other, the Jewish tradition,  seeks to *minimize* suffering. 

In halal  when the animal is slaughtered the butcher (who can be any male above the age of 14 years) cries out, Allah Akbar! This is the same cry uttered when a woman is stoned to death.  So, appeasement comes from the animal's suffering.

In the kosher slaughter of an animal the male must be trained and certified by a designated rabbi and there is no prayer to accompany the act. Suffering does not lead to appeasement, and in fact Jews believe that the suffering taints the sacrifice and the act will not be "kosher" or pure. 

So appeasement is true for both but suffering is not required by both.
:idea:

BTW - You probably know this, but "kosher" does not refer to the killing of animals but to a state of purity. There are many practices in Orthodox Judaism that are referred to as "kosher" ranging from cleaning an oven with a blowtorch prior to cooking Passover or wedding meals to the requirement that a woman take a ritual bath after her menses end each month. The kosher slaughter of animals means using a procedure that does not contaminate the meat. That's all for now. :}8-:


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## Randip Singh (Aug 29, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> well.. wrestling Akharas are found all over Hindustan and there have been different sects who have established Akharas ..the type of militarisation required to fight the Mughals was organised by Guru Hargobindsinghji Maharaj Chchatvi Paadshahi..and by Dasve Paadshah Guru Gobindsinghji Maharaj ...and none of the previous Gurus had established any military movements ...in fact even Guru Tegh Bahadur Maharaj dint think of military resistance ..His Highness went to the Mughal invader with a dialogue approach
> 
> Now regarding the clan ..The Gurus were of the Khatri clan..Khatris are Kshatriyas who are into business ..its a more combo of a warrior and a baniya ...i myself am one ..i mean dont take it wrongly i m not into the Jaat Paat thing ..but this is to just share some info i have known..



Yes wrestling Akhara's ARE found all over Hindustan, but don't you think this is unusual for Bhakhta's?

When you climb a mountain you have acclimatise, the wrestling was one step in the direction of militirisation.

Well the Khatri's I have met  (especially Sikh) are very tough. They will not hesitate in drawing the sword when needed.

Guru Teg Bahadhur fought in many military campaigns with the 6th master. Although he was peaceful towards the end of his life, he was by no means not averse to using the sword.

I am from the school of thought that has found no difference in the message from the 1st Nanak to the 10th.

ਕਬੀਰ  ਜਉ  ਤੁਹਿ  ਸਾਧ  ਪਿਰੰਮ  ਕੀ  ਸੀਸੁ  ਕਾਟਿ  ਕਰਿ  ਗੋਇ  ॥ 
 कबीर जउ तुहि साध पिरम की सीसु काटि करि गोइ ॥ 
 Kabīr ja*o ṯuhi sāḏẖ piramm kī sīs kāt kar go*ė. 
 Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball. 


Page 1105, Line 5
ਖੇਤੁ ਜੁ ਮਾਂਡਿਓ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਬ ਜੂਝਨ ਕੋ ਦਾਉ ॥੧॥
खेतु जु मांडिओ सूरमा अब जूझन को दाउ ॥१॥
Kẖėṯ jo māŉdi*o sūrmā ab jūjẖan ko ḏā*o. ||1||
The spiritual warriors enter the field of battle; now is the time to *fight*! ||1||
*Devotee Kabir*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]Page 1105, Line 5


ਸੂਰਾ ਸੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨੀਐ ਜੁ ਲਰੈ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਹੇਤ ॥
सूरा सो पहिचानीऐ जु लरै दीन के हेत ॥
Sūrā so pahicẖānī*ai jo larai ḏīn kė hėṯ.
He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who *fight*s in defense of religion.
*Devotee Kabir*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


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## Randip Singh (Aug 29, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> !
> Randip ji,
> 
> I am not in disagreement whatsoever with your comment. In fact I take it as the basic premise of any differentiation between halal and kosher slaughtering of animals. :yes:
> ...



I see your point.

Thanks


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## lionprinceuk (Sep 16, 2008)

I don't see too much point of jhatka unless we are doing it ourselves, or at least it is being done in front of us, like they do outside Hazoor Sahib I believe?

Only reason I can see for jhatka to be supplied is if very bad and inhumance practises are being used against animals and killing them. Jhatka is also important in hindu kshatriya warrior traditions.


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## Archived_member7 (Sep 16, 2008)

thats absolutely right Jatinder veerji ..yes ..inhuman practices like halal..is not permitted by our Panth ..the entire Bharat has the practice of Jhatka ..be it any religion ..Sikhi, Buddhist, Shakt ..be it any community of indian origin and religion which allows meat ..

the animal too has to be kept in a good condition ..well fed ..bathed ..the swift blow decapitates the animal ..thus disconnecting the brain connectivity ...the feeling of pain comes from the brain..after loss of connectivity there is no pain..contrary to this the muslim/jewish way bleeds the animal to death without decapitating ...there is a cut laid on the throat and the animal bleeds .feeling pain..since the connectivity to the brain is active ..

guys i have shot some videos ..one is jhatka and the other is patka ...anyone wanting to watch it can let me know ..or if the majority request the moderators we can have a link ..here right here ..

the prob is we sikhs are not standing strongly for jhatka certification ...others will follow ..but we need to take the lead ..


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## spnadmin (Sep 16, 2008)

Rajkhalsa ji

Please do not post the video if any pics come up on the web page. A simple link with a warning that the content may be upsetting or offensive is OK. That way people can decide for themselves whether to look. Thank you.


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## Archived_member7 (Sep 16, 2008)

as you wish ..you honour ..no wonder punjabis are prone to heart attack..not me but medical studies indicate ...


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## lionprinceuk (Sep 16, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> guys i have shot some videos ..one is jhatka and the other is patka ...anyone wanting to watch it can let me know ..or if the majority request the moderators we can have a link ..here right here ..
> 
> the prob is we sikhs are not standing strongly for jhatka certification ...others will follow ..but we need to take the lead ..



could you put these videos up on somewhere like youtube as well?
The thing is, there were quite a few chatka videos on youtube but they seem to have been taken off, i cannot seem to find them. The only one I could seem to watch last month was one that wasn't a proper chatka, or as one person described it as fatka I believe, as the strike didn't go quite well.

And as for chatka certification, there could be some standard to show that an animal has been killed with the chatka method, or to train people to kill properly in this method.

However I would disagree if this certification was used the same way muslmaans use their halal certification, as in to separate themselves from society to only be able to eat their own type of meat. I do not think that sikhs, at least those that are not amrit-dhari khalsa singhs, should be super-duper strict, in that the meat always has to be chatka, and we definetly shouldn't become shocked if non-chatka is consumed, although maybe we should if halal is consumed, especially by amrit-dhari khalsa singhs.
So basically, not to be tribalistic about it, and rather have it as an acceptable standard. I am sure this standard would be welcomed by indians and hindus, and also as a traditional standard.


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## Archived_member7 (Sep 16, 2008)

hindus welcome chatka..the vedas talk abt it ..and bro there r 3 ways .its either jhatka, patka (2-3 strokes, the first one however cuts in, slicing the connectivity to the brain) or kosher or halal...well i know may of hindus and sikhs dont want to be strict abt it since they would miss their favorite arabic recipes ..well i dont want to say anything abt such people ..to each his own..however i would remain strict abt it ..i can only check my commitment ...my only concern here is ..can there be a unted force to enforce jhatka certification ...go through the search engines ..u will find 1000s of websites displaying info abt halal restaurants in the world ..displaying kosher ...ALL over the world !!! and if we cannot budge an inch from here..then i leave it to Akaal Purakh the Merciful Maha Akaal...


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## Archived_member7 (Nov 18, 2008)

BBC NEWS | UK | Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end'

*The method of animal slaughter used by Jews and Muslims should be banned immediately, according to an independent advisory group.* 

The Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC), which advises the government on how to avoid cruelty to livestock, says the way Kosher and Halal meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals. 
Both the Jewish and Muslim religions demand that slaughter is carried out with a single cut to the throat, rather than the more widespread method of stunning with a bolt into the head before slaughter. 
Kosher and Halal butchers deny their method of killing animals is cruel and have expressed anger over the recommendation. 
*'Clearly suffering'* 
One worshipper at the Central London Mosque told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "Everything about the Islamic way of life is under attack so it makes you wonder if this is actually about humanity to animals." 
Peter Jinman, president of the British Veterinary Association said vets respected people's religious beliefs, but urged Muslims to be respectful of animals too. 




*The brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain *






Muslim Council of Great Britain 


"We're looking at what is acceptable in the moral and ethical society we live in," he told Today. 
FAWC said it wanted an end to the exemption currently allowed for Kosher and Halal meat from the legal requirement to stun animals first. 
It says cattle can take up to two minutes to bleed to death - amounting to an abuse of the animals. 
"This is a major incision into the animal and to say that it doesn't suffer is quite ridiculous," said FAWC chairwoman, Dr Judy MacArthur Clark. 
Compassion in World Farming backed the call, saying: "We believe that the law must be changed to require all animals to be stunned before slaughter." 
*'Way of life'* 
Muslims and Jews argue that their long established method of slaughter results in a sudden loss of blood from the head, causing animals to feel virtually nothing. 









Q&A: Animal slaughter 


They say they will fight any attempt to prevent a practice required by their religion and central to their way of life. 
One rabbi, who had been practicing the Jewish method of animal slaughter for around 40 years, told BBC News: "The process takes a fraction of a second. 
"With a very, very sharp knife all the vessels in the neck are severed and that means there's no blood going to the brain and the animal loses consciousness very rapidly and dies soon after that." 
The Muslim Council of Britain says animals are not distressed when they are slaughtered. 
"It's a sudden and quick haemorrhage. A quick loss of blood pressure and the brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain," said spokesman Dr Majid Katme. 
The Humanists movement, which has previously called for the abolition of ritual slaughter, said ethical values should be put above religious ones. 
"There is no imperative for Muslims or Judaists to eat meat produced in this manner," said spokesman Roy Saich. "There is no reason why they should not simply abstain from eating meat altogether if they do not wish to eat the same meat as the rest of us."


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## spnadmin (Dec 20, 2009)

I have read recently that Shiromani Akali Dal is buying controlling shares in Punjabi cable TV.

So that means there will be less not more information and more not less disinformation on Punjabi television.


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## spnadmin (Jun 14, 2010)

truefriend ji

You have posted the same comments on two threads. This is spamming. In addition I have made this remarks on the other thread, Is halal meat proven scientifically right?

Please be warned. These are the remarks that apply to your replies on both this and the other thread. There are TOS violations with tone, content, misuse of fonts, and proselytizing. 

The most recent comment has been moved to the  moderation section for review by moderators. 

After discussion it may be returned to this thread.

A reminder to forum members to avoid using bold font, ALL CAPS, and  color font, particularly all 3 together. There is no need to shout at  the membership. Bold and/or color fonts in red or blue are used by Aman  Singh ji or by me when moderation comments are being made to distinguish  our personal views from forum management. Thank you.


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