# Definition Of Sant In Sikh Religion



## sachbol (Aug 5, 2011)

Sadh Sangatji,
Waheguruji ka Khalsa, Waheguruji ki Fateh

In our religion  Baba Budhaji served 6 Guru Saheban and was the first Granthi of Sri Guru Granth Saheb but Guru saheban never used word Sant for him. Four saahebzade, 40 Mukte, Bhai Sati Dasji, Bhai Mati Dasji and Bhai Dayaliji were never called as Sant by Guru Sahebans. Now we see a flood of Sants. Sants with lot of money. sants with costly cars, sants with high following and sants with armed body guards is a common site.

Please try to explain me who is a SANT ?


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## Archived_Member16 (Aug 5, 2011)

*Previous postings on the subject: *

Do Touchy-Feely Babey and Sants Belong in Sikhism?

*LINK :* http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/36468-do-touchy-feely-babey-sants-belong.html


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## findingmyway (Aug 5, 2011)

No human being can be a sant. Anyone who says they are cannot possibly be as they are too full of ego. Even our Guru's didn't call themselves sants


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 5, 2011)

BHAAG HOA.....GUR-SANT milaya..is Guru Arjun Ji Sahib and the GUR-SANT is Guru Ramdass Ji. NO explanation could be MORE CLEARER than THAT. period.

ONLY SGGS is SANT.

Please go through the SPN archives..this has been discussed before.


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## sachbol (Aug 6, 2011)

Satkaryog Gyani Jarnail Singhji,

Thank you very much for your valuable comments.

An individual Sikh can not be a Sant and if he is a Sant then he can not be a Sikh.

Waheguru may enlighten usjapposatnamwaheguru:


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## aristotle (Aug 6, 2011)

Even Gurus, or great Sikhs like Bhai Mani Singh Ji, Bhai Taru Singh Ji, Bhai Bidhi Chand, Baba Banda Singh Bahadur and many others whose I haven't mentioned, were not called 'Sant' in Sikh history. But, the idle and ill-learned self-proclaimed 'Babas' of present times don't get tired of inserting 'degrees' like 'Sant', 'Huzoor Maharaj', '108', 'Brahm-gyaani'. That gives me a mixed feeling of laughter and pity on these 'Babas' and their 'sheep-like' followers.......


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## sachbol (Oct 8, 2017)

aristotle said:


> Even Gurus, or great Sikhs like Bhai Mani Singh Ji, Bhai Taru Singh Ji, Bhai Bidhi Chand, Baba Banda Singh Bahadur and many others whose I haven't mentioned, were not called 'Sant' in Sikh history. But, the idle and ill-learned self-proclaimed 'Babas' of present times don't get tired of inserting 'degrees' like 'Sant', 'Huzoor Maharaj', '108', 'Brahm-gyaani'. That gives me a mixed feeling of laughter and pity on these 'Babas' and their 'sheep-like' followers.......



Thanx. This massage has to be amplified.
1. We should not go to their diwans
2. If we go  then do not do any Mathha Tekna to these so called sants


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## Original (Oct 9, 2017)

sachbol said:


> Please try to explain me who is a SANT ?



Sant and Saint are invariably the one and the same !

Definitions:

Saint [English] - a person of great holiness, virtue, or benevolence

Sant  [Gurmukhi] -  a person who neither sleeps nor awakes [spiritually] , but remains constantly
                           connected with God [ਕਿਆ ਸਵਣਾ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਗਣਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ ਜਿਨਾ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਨ  
                           ਵਿਸਰੈ  ਸੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਰਧਾਨ SGGSJ, 313:as directed by Mahan Khosh, on page 182, 
                           vol 1. It further adds, a person of subdued mind who practices union with God.

The motto "saint soldier" [sant sipahi] underpins Khalsa Philosophy. SGGSJ speaks very highly of such a being. In fact, Guru Nanak goes the extra mile in proclaiming that for his comfort, he, Nanak, wants the "dust that has been generated by the footfall of saints" [ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸੁ ਇਹੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਮਾਗੈ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਧੂਰੇ II SGGSJ, 13].

So what does that tell you about the word sant ? Well it tells you, there is such an entity as a saint and not only is he human, but pretty much a "model" human the likeness of which is to be mirrored and aspired within all. Of the 7.3 billion population, fair amount can be accredited with the title "sant" for they'd be characteristic traits culminating virtuous deeds. You've got to go in with an open mind, but if you've preconceived notions such as you mention above  then you're going to miss the wood for the tree.

Much obliged


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## chazSingh (Oct 10, 2017)

Original said:


> Sant and Saint are invariably the one and the same !
> 
> Definitions:
> 
> ...




I also believe if you need the company of a 'true' Saint then the universe will conspire to make that happen...a person does not need to seek a Saint...God will feel your inner Ardaas calling for His sanctuary and then all is in His hands...


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## Harry Haller (Oct 11, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> I also believe if you need the company of a 'true' Saint then the universe will conspire to make that happen...a person does not need to seek a Saint...God will feel your inner Ardaas calling for His sanctuary and then all is in His hands...



again, pardon me for asking questions, but what is the difference between you making an inner Ardaas calling for his sanctuary, and a woman being brutally gang raped begging god for sanctuary? is it in the delivery, or is there a format for asking? do special words need to be said? Why does God care more about your benefit of sanctuary then say the starving, the murdered? If we lived in a world of peace and love, I could understand, but we do not, we live in a violent world where people are hurt and maimed daily, many thousands, daily, what sort of God ignores them and listens to our vain pleas for sanctuary?


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## chazSingh (Oct 11, 2017)

Harry Haller said:


> again, pardon me for asking questions, but what is the difference between you making an inner Ardaas calling for his sanctuary, and a woman being brutally gang raped begging god for sanctuary? is it in the delivery, or is there a format for asking? do special words need to be said? Why does God care more about your benefit of sanctuary then say the starving, the murdered? If we lived in a world of peace and love, I could understand, but we do not, we live in a violent world where people are hurt and maimed daily, many thousands, daily, what sort of God ignores them and listens to our vain pleas for sanctuary?



Hey Harry,

As always you ask a lot of questions...similar questions to what i used to ask and sometimes still ask...and as always my answer is if you really want to obtain real answers to these questions you have to do as per SGGS Ji...

you really have to open SGGS Ji and take time and effort to contemplate on the Shabads...the Shabads are there for this purpose...no one will be able to give you an answer whereby you will be content and happy because the 'Truth' of life doesn't appear to be something our Ego existence can handle...The Ego requires Multiplicity... 

Viewing the world from 'street' level gives a different picture to viewing the world from the top of the worlds tallest building...
both are valid but your outlook will be different based on each...

Change your point of reference and maybe you'll get real answers to your questions that you'll be happy with... SGGS Ji tells you how you can change your perspective, your viewpoint, now...today...this life...this moment..


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## Harry Haller (Oct 11, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> Hey Harry,
> 
> As always you ask a lot of questions...similar questions to what i used to ask and sometimes still ask...and as always my answer is if you really want to obtain real answers to these questions you have to do as per SGGS Ji...
> 
> ...



I have always loved your humility, however, I have to confess that that the answers contained in the SGGSji, for sure are there, however, no two people could read the SGGSji and come to the same conclusions, therefore the answers to the questions you have asked, you may have answered, but it would be a combination of your interpretation and life experiences that give you the answer, therefore the answer has to be different for almost everyone. I am not actually asking for answers, I am pointing out that the smooth flow of sense does not exist, the world is illogical, people are illogical,

your street metaphor is interesting, however, at street level, one can visit and interact, at the higher level, one cannot, not immediately anyway, but it brings me back to my first point, what is the point of seeing all, everything, but at a level that you neither can or wish to touch?

Oh, I will never get the answers I will be happy with, but that is because I am through with hammering and beating a concept until it fits in with my answer,

as always a pleasure..


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## chazSingh (Oct 11, 2017)

SGGS Ji page 229

Such shabads are truely mind blowing....they hit your Ego hard!

ਕੋਊ ਨਰਕ ਕੋਊ ਸੁਰਗ ਬੰਛਾਵਤ ॥
कोऊ नरक कोऊ सुरग बंछावत ॥
Ko▫ū narak ko▫ū surag bancẖẖāvaṯ.
Some have gone to hell, and some yearn for paradise.

ਆਲ ਜਾਲ ਮਾਇਆ ਜੰਜਾਲ ॥
आल जाल माइआ जंजाल ॥
Āl jāl mā▫i▫ā janjāl.
Worldly snares and entanglements of Maya,

ਹਉਮੈ ਮੋਹ ਭਰਮ ਭੈ ਭਾਰ ॥
हउमै मोह भरम भै भार ॥
Ha▫umai moh bẖaram bẖai bẖār.
egotism, attachment, doubt and loads of fear;

ਦੂਖ ਸੂਖ ਮਾਨ ਅਪਮਾਨ ॥
दूख सूख मान अपमान ॥
Ḏūkẖ sūkẖ mān apmān.
pain and pleasure, honor and dishonor -

ਅਨਿਕ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਕੀਓ ਬਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨ ॥
अनिक प्रकार कीओ बख्यान ॥
Anik parkār kī▫o bakẖ▫yān.
these came to be described in various ways.

ਆਪਨ ਖੇਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ॥
आपन खेलु आपि करि देखै ॥
Āpan kẖel āp kar ḏekẖai.
He Himself creates and beholds His own drama.

ਖੇਲੁ ਸੰਕੋਚੈ ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੈ ॥੭॥
खेलु संकोचै तउ नानक एकै ॥७॥
Kẖel sankocẖai ṯa▫o Nānak ekai. ||7||
He winds up the drama, and then, O Nanak, He alone remains. ||7||

ਜਹ ਅਬਿਗਤੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਤਹ ਆਪਿ ॥
जह अबिगतु भगतु तह आपि ॥
Jah abigaṯ bẖagaṯ ṯah āp.
Wherever the Eternal Lord's devotee is, He Himself is there.

ਜਹ ਪਸਰੈ ਪਾਸਾਰੁ ਸੰਤ ਪਰਤਾਪਿ ॥
जह पसरै पासारु संत परतापि ॥
Jah pasrai pāsār sanṯ parṯāp.
He unfolds the expanse of His creation for the glory of His Saint.

ਦੁਹੂ ਪਾਖ ਕਾ ਆਪਹਿ ਧਨੀ ॥
दुहू पाख का आपहि धनी ॥
Ḏuhū pākẖ kā āpėh ḏẖanī.
He Himself is the Master of both worlds.

ਉਨ ਕੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਉਨਹੂ ਬਨੀ ॥
उन की सोभा उनहू बनी ॥
Un kī sobẖā unhū banī.
His Praise is to Himself alone.

ਆਪਹਿ ਕਉਤਕ ਕਰੈ ਅਨਦ ਚੋਜ ॥
आपहि कउतक करै अनद चोज ॥
Āpėh ka▫uṯak karai anaḏ cẖoj.
He Himself performs and plays His amusements and games.

ਆਪਹਿ ਰਸ ਭੋਗਨ ਨਿਰਜੋਗ ॥
आपहि रस भोगन निरजोग ॥
Āpėh ras bẖogan nirjog.
He Himself enjoys pleasures, and yet He is unaffected and untouched.

ਜਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਆਪਨ ਨਾਇ ਲਾਵੈ ॥
जिसु भावै तिसु आपन नाइ लावै ॥
Jis bẖāvai ṯis āpan nā▫e lāvai.
He attaches whomever He pleases to His Name.

ਜਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਖੇਲ ਖਿਲਾਵੈ ॥
जिसु भावै तिसु खेल खिलावै ॥
Jis bẖāvai ṯis kẖel kẖilāvai.
He causes whomever He pleases to play in His play.

ਬੇਸੁਮਾਰ ਅਥਾਹ ਅਗਨਤ ਅਤੋਲੈ ॥
बेसुमार अथाह अगनत अतोलै ॥
Besumār athāh agnaṯ aṯolai.
He is beyond calculation, beyond measure, uncountable and unfathomable.

ਜਿਉ ਬੁਲਾਵਹੁ ਤਿਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਬੋਲੈ ॥੮॥੨੧॥
जिउ बुलावहु तिउ नानक दास बोलै ॥८॥२१॥
Ji▫o bulāvhu ṯi▫o Nānak ḏās bolai. ||8||21||
As You inspire him to speak, O Lord, so does servant Nanak speak. ||8||21||


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## chazSingh (Oct 11, 2017)

Harry Haller said:


> I have always loved your humility, however, I have to confess that that the answers contained in the SGGSji, for sure are there, however, no two people could read the SGGSji and come to the same conclusions, therefore the answers to the questions you have asked, you may have answered, but it would be a combination of your interpretation and life experiences that give you the answer, therefore the answer has to be different for almost everyone. I am not actually asking for answers, I am pointing out that the smooth flow of sense does not exist, the world is illogical, people are illogical,
> 
> your street metaphor is interesting, however, at street level, one can visit and interact, at the higher level, one cannot, not immediately anyway, but it brings me back to my first point, what is the point of seeing all, everything, but at a level that you neither can or wish to touch?
> 
> ...




If you were alone Harry Ji...and there was no other...no world, no nothing...just you...
you realized you had the greatest infinite creative power...what may you wish to use the creative power for?

*Remember you are alone...*

you think...wow...i'll design a game system....and then start designing a game...
you may think...ok..i'll create multiple characters, beings entities, worlds, realms....bla bla bla lol

But what now...*who* can live this creation and experience it as if it is real....? whats the point if you're all alone...how will you truely understand your creative power if you can't live it through unlimited viewpoints and unlimited experiences (Duality: hot/cold, good/bad etc )

So 'somehow', as only you exist... you were able to go into your own video game...and play each character, at the same time...lol.. yeah sure for a while, you knew you were in a Game, you knew the truth...that Harry Ji is the creator behind the Game and the characters don;t really exists.....you understood and had access to this Viewpoint * (like from on top of the tall building) *... and Boom...you have SatYug...the characters look after each other because they still see Harry Ji as the 'one' and they understand the truth whilst playing the game..

move forward...Ego hardens...the Characters have lost all consciousness of Harry Ji (the one, the creator)...and we have Kalyug...
*Harry ji (the one) has gone so deep into the Game*, He (all the characters) now believe they are the 'reality'...the Characters are now experiencing complete immersion in the created game.... Harry Ji (the multiple Characters) are questioning his own 'real' existence 'Harry Ji, the ONE' lol...the creator...EGO is the ruler...the director

So in this condition, we fight each other, we question God, Religion makes us destroy each other as we think our Gods are different, Wars etc etc...

But Harry Ji (the one) knew this was going to happen...He knew he  would by design of the Game, get completely lost in it, at some point...so he devised a method/ character / and entity to be ever present in the Game (Guru)...whereby each of the Characters if they so seek and yearn, can start to unravel the Truth and Harry Ji (the lost character) can once again know he is the 'One'....so that Chaz Ji (the lost Character) can once again dip into the experience of the 'One'....etc etc...so that we know the Truth...

Then What...if you had access to this experience...would you be asking the questions you asked earlier? There is only the 'One' so who got raped? who did the Rape? who saved the one getting Raped? who reported it on the news? who Sat in the Court? lol..

Like i said, i'm just skimming the Surface...sometimes i feel close to this Truth, othertimes, the 'Game', Maya...very easily drags me back into questioning everything, chasing after countless desires, greed etc etc..

I'm not saying the above is True, but it's the feeling i get when i read SGGS Ji, and my current experiences though Simran and life...It's mind blowing stuff, especially when you start to mingle with this truth...nothing ever is the same again..


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## Harry Haller (Oct 11, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> If you were alone Harry Ji...and there was no other...no world, no nothing...just you...
> you realized you had the greatest infinite creative power...what may you wish to use the creative power for?
> 
> *Remember you are alone...*
> ...



ahh i have missed our conversations, but this one is too good for an instant reply, I will ponder it while I install windows


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## Harkiran Kaur (Oct 11, 2017)

You and I have always thought alike 



chazSingh said:


> If you were alone Harry Ji...and there was no other...no world, no nothing...just you...
> you realized you had the greatest infinite creative power...what may you wish to use the creative power for?
> 
> *Remember you are alone...*
> ...


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## Sikhilove (Oct 11, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> If you were alone Harry Ji...and there was no other...no world, no nothing...just you...
> you realized you had the greatest infinite creative power...what may you wish to use the creative power for?
> 
> *Remember you are alone...*
> ...



Go further. What is the One? It's Truth. What's the Truth? It's the frequency of a balanced gyan that lives to discover while remaining detached from the highs and lows of the discoveries. It's image and form, its origin Is Nothing, its the silence.

 Who was the first knower of this Truth? 

God. Who created the Khel to share this Truth, and the Divine Gyan with another out of Pure Love?

The first Truth Knower did- God.

Hence Brahmgyanis and Sants know themselves to be One and the Same for they have realised the Truth and they have become one with it.

This khel was created by and is powered by God for us. He created it out of Love


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## Harry Haller (Oct 12, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> If you were alone Harry Ji...and there was no other...no world, no nothing...just you...
> you realized you had the greatest infinite creative power...what may you wish to use the creative power for?



Hmmm If you are suggesting that I would use the power to make a small world and then sit and watch it, I have to confess that I probably would not do that.



chazSingh said:


> Remember you are alone...


I know what being alone is, I do not need to integrate that philosophy into my thoughts, I am alone, very alone, its actually quite beautiful.



chazSingh said:


> you think...wow...i'll design a game system....and then start designing a game...
> you may think...ok..i'll create multiple characters, beings entities, worlds, realms....bla bla bla lol



Why? Why would I do that, nope, that would be the last thing I would do, the truth is, as I said, I am alone, I do not interact, nor speak to anyone, I do not have a mobile phone, a tv, no social accounts, nothing, so, as I sit here this fine thursday morning, my living coming from my online business, with a mound of packing ahead of me, I do wonder, what is entertaining, what is fun, but creating a mini world would not be high on my priority list.



chazSingh said:


> But what now...*who* can live this creation and experience it as if it is real....? whats the point if you're all alone...how will you truely understand your creative power if you can't live it through unlimited viewpoints and unlimited experiences (Duality: hot/cold, good/bad etc )



Although personally, I reject the vision of God being remotely interested in my life, I would assume a 'God' is a 'God' because it knows everything, so I would imagine such a being would already fully understand its creative power without the need to make lego worlds in order to facilitate this.



chazSingh said:


> So 'somehow', as only you exist... you were able to go into your own video game...and play each character, at the same time...lol.. yeah sure for a while, you knew you were in a Game, you knew the truth...that Harry Ji is the creator behind the Game and the characters don;t really exists.....you understood and had access to this Viewpoint * (like from on top of the tall building) *... and Boom...you have SatYug...the characters look after each other because they still see Harry Ji as the 'one' and they understand the truth whilst playing the game..



Ok, so lets say one of the characters gets free will, let us say I am not Harry the creator, let us say I am Harry, one of the characters, and I have just realised that everything around me is just a game, a play, that every character in this play is just that, an actor, a manikin, empty, and that every amusement, every pleasure is actually irrelevant, what do I do, carry on playing? well of course not, I would cease the game.



chazSingh said:


> move forward...Ego hardens...the Characters have lost all consciousness of Harry Ji (the one, the creator)...and we have Kalyug...
> *Harry ji (the one) has gone so deep into the Game*, He (all the characters) now believe they are the 'reality'...the Characters are now experiencing complete immersion in the created game.... Harry Ji (the multiple Characters) are questioning his own 'real' existence 'Harry Ji, the ONE' lol...the creator...EGO is the ruler...the director



This does not make sense to me, how can 'God' be fooled, how can 'God' go deeply into anything, you make your God sound fallible, I always assumed Gods were perfect.



chazSingh said:


> But Harry Ji (the one) knew this was going to happen...He knew he would by design of the Game, get completely lost in it, at some point...so he devised a method/ character / and entity to be ever present in the Game (Guru)...whereby each of the Characters if they so seek and yearn, can start to unravel the Truth and Harry Ji (the lost character) can once again know he is the 'One'....so that Chaz Ji (the lost Character) can once again dip into the experience of the 'One'....etc etc...so that we know the Truth...



The truth is not that hard, seems to me people make it hard because they do not like what the end result is, so, the truth is this is all a game, I concede that, completely, but what follows is, then everything is completely irrelevant, I personally am not driven by a God, I have always been driven by the void, which I guess, is the opposite of God, my experiences have now shown me that if you accept the game and cease playing, the void shrinks, this is good. So if I accept the truth, I have to cease playing the game, cease playing the game and it gets quite peaceful, quite nice.



chazSingh said:


> Then What...if you had access to this experience...would you be asking the questions you asked earlier? There is only the 'One' so who got raped? who did the Rape? who saved the one getting Raped? who reported it on the news? who Sat in the Court? lol..



You laugh, but on the odd occasions I do watch the news, maybe at my parents, I see misery, tears, pain, suffering, it is not funny to those still in the game, not funny at all, on the one hand, this mentality should offer you freedom from this, but on the other hand, you still live, you still play the game, why? now you know its a game, why are you playing it? You talk of rape, who got raped, who sat in the court, hahaha, yeah its all a game, but it does not stop you living and playing your own game within the game you know is a game. Do I want for anything, nope, do I get upset by people, nope, because no people exist in my life to upset me, so I find it hard to understand, seems to me your only embracing half the concept, the half that suits an agenda,


chazSingh said:


> Like i said, i'm just skimming the Surface...sometimes i feel close to this Truth, othertimes, the 'Game', Maya...very easily drags me back into questioning everything, chasing after countless desires, greed etc etc..





chazSingh said:


> Like i said, i'm just skimming the Surface...sometimes i feel close to this Truth, othertimes, the 'Game', Maya...very easily drags me back into questioning everything, chasing after countless desires, greed etc etc..
> 
> I'm not saying the above is True, but it's the feeling i get when i read SGGS Ji, and my current experiences though Simran and life...It's mind blowing stuff, especially when you start to mingle with this truth...nothing ever is the same again..



I still don't understand, we both know this is a game, so what is there to drag you back in again? my question still stands, and as you dart in and out of the game, I am not sure you are able to answer, because if you do dart in and out, do you really then believed that this is a game? surely if you really believed, like I do, you would not dart in and out, you would tape newspapers to your windows, avoid contact with all society, (as they are all characters anyway), and focus on your own development outside of the game.

One thing I have realised, given the lack of interaction, is that it would appear that most people do whatever it is they do for other people, no one drives a car, buys a house, for themselves, they do it for the validation and perceived respect of others, I still drive a 20 year old range rover, I could get a new one, well if I could afford one, but the entire concept is mind numbingly dull, as there is no one to congratulate me, no one for me to make jealous, it is pointless, I often wondered how people would live on a desert island, would they preen themselves, and cover themselves in the same finery if no one could see, probably not, so most of what you do, is for others, for society, for your wife, your parents, your children, for izzat,

the truth is not that startling, yes, life is all a big game with one character playing all the roles, so knowing this, do you take the red pill or the blue pill, one frees you from everything, but life is simple and solitary, the other immerses you deep into a complicated and emotion filled world, to take neither is to sit on the fence and dip your toe into one or the other as you wish.

So my question to all those that know the existence of the game, is what now, how do you play this, what do you do now?. The credibility of any answer depends on how much of the game you still play whilst you denounce the game, or are you denouncing the game? If your living life still involves the game, yet, you maintain that this is a game, then that sounds quite strange to me. Is it that hard to leave the game?


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## Sikhilove (Oct 12, 2017)

Harry Haller said:


> Hmmm If you are suggesting that I would use the power to make a small world and then sit and watch it, I have to confess that I probably would not do that.
> 
> 
> I know what being alone is, I do not need to integrate that philosophy into my thoughts, I am alone, very alone, its actually quite beautiful.
> ...



Harry I liked the last bit you wrote. 

The game is God, the silence is God. 

Harry- the game is a projection of the silence. It's One n the same. No need for matrix pills. 

Simply remember its all the same, its all One. Nirboah and Nirvair


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## chazSingh (Oct 13, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> Go further. What is the One? It's Truth. What's the Truth? It's the frequency of a balanced gyan that lives to discover while remaining detached from the highs and lows of the discoveries. It's image and form, its origin Is Nothing, its the silence.
> 
> Who was the first knower of this Truth?
> 
> ...



Whilst i agree with most of what you say, i have some reservation in part of it

you're implying that there is not only 'one God' that we all have the capacity to become like 'God' through realization via this Khel that the 'First Knower' created...

Therefore once we get to the level of 'God' then there still remains multiplicity...i.e. multiple knowers, multiple Gods in esense

but where does that leave various passages in Gurbani stating that there is no other?


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## chazSingh (Oct 13, 2017)

Harry Haller said:


> Hmmm If you are suggesting that I would use the power to make a small world and then sit and watch it, I have to confess that I probably would not do that.
> 
> 
> I know what being alone is, I do not need to integrate that philosophy into my thoughts, I am alone, very alone, its actually quite beautiful.
> ...



To truely experience multiplicity, to believe in multiplicity, the game has to have you completely convinced right? 

oh and Gurbani states God can end at any moment the Khel...so what then....everyone dies? do we feel sad...all the characters Died...but all that was in the beginning (God) is still there at the end lol...what died...nothing...  lol just Ego...that defines the characters...thats all that would die...

i'm 100% sure, it's not just as plain and simple as this...taking this inner jouney is just that to truely understand what is what, and why it is what it is...

God doesn't just sit and watch, he's also part of it...living the khel, and also beyond...it's stuff like this that is difficult to comprehend...how Can He be all the individuals, and also beyond that aspect as well lol..

Maybe when you experience the truth, the whole truth you would play the game differently...who knows...you have to get there to know what you would do...until then we're all just speculating on what we would do...

Maybe i will fully experience the truth one day...as yet....it;s just glimses of it..

Computer Game programmers don;t just want to design worlds....they want to be able to play it, live it, experience it...from multiple perspectives...no two plays are the same...add more worlds, more features...design breeding more design...endless...


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## Harry Haller (Oct 13, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> To truely experience multiplicity, to believe in multiplicity, the game has to have you completely convinced right?



I have experienced multiplicity, and I believe in multiplicity, I need no convincing



chazSingh said:


> oh and Gurbani states God can end at any moment the Khel...so what then....everyone dies? do we feel sad...all the characters Died...but all that was in the beginning (God) is still there at the end lol...what died...nothing...  lol just Ego...that defines the characters...thats all that would die...



My question is simple, given that, why take any aspect of the game seriously?



chazSingh said:


> God doesn't just sit and watch, he's also part of it...living the khel, and also beyond...it's stuff like this that is difficult to comprehend...how Can He be all the individuals, and also beyond that aspect as well lol..



Clarify for me where free will comes into this



chazSingh said:


> Maybe when you experience the truth, the whole truth you would play the game differently...who knows...you have to get there to know what you would do...until then we're all just speculating on what we would do...



We dont know what infinity is, but we do know that if you divide 1 by 0, that is infinity, surely an experiencer of the truth would not play a game, they would be beyond it. Why would anyone spend so much time and so much energy taking away the veils of maya to then jump in and play the game better?


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## Sikhilove (Oct 24, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> Whilst i agree with most of what you say, i have some reservation in part of it
> 
> you're implying that there is not only 'one God' that we all have the capacity to become like 'God' through realization via this Khel that the 'First Knower' created...
> 
> ...



Not at all.

Truth Is One. We are all made of the same stuff. 

The ocean is the drop, the drop is the ocean.

Hence when we all realise our true origin, we merge back into our true essence, as Once.


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## Sikhilove (Oct 24, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> Whilst i agree with most of what you say, i have some reservation in part of it
> 
> you're implying that there is not only 'one God' that we all have the capacity to become like 'God' through realization via this Khel that the 'First Knower' created...
> 
> ...



Not at all.

Truth Is One. We are all made of the same stuff. 

The ocean is the drop, the drop is the ocean.

Hence when we all realise our true origin, we merge back into our true essence, as One.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 24, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> Not at all.
> 
> Truth Is One. We are all made of the same stuff.
> 
> ...



Although you still have not answered my last question, I have another..

You mentioned a story about a demon coming up the stairs, and once you realised it was god, it vanished, ok, makes sense, all is one and all that, but what if a rapist had broken in, and was coming up the stairs? my question is, if this is all a play and all the characters are god, at what point do you question the character rather than accept it as a guise of god? 

A man coming up the stairs with a knife is not going to be disarmed by telling him he is god, so how do you vary your interaction and based on what factor?

thanks


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## Balbir27 (Nov 6, 2017)

Original said:


> Sant and Saint are invariably the one and the same !
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kindly verify please page 313 of SGGSJ for the quote that you give because I could not find it on that page.


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## Original (Nov 6, 2017)

Balbir27 said:


> Kindly verify please page 313 of SGGSJ for the quote that you give because I could not find it on that page.



Page 313 of SGGSJ

*ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੪ ॥ ਕਿਆ ਸਵਣਾ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਗਣਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ ਜਿਨਾ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਸੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਰਧਾਨ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 313}
*
This bit here *"....ਜਿਨਾ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਸੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਰਧਾਨ ii"* is by definition what Mahan Khosh [Conventionally accepted Sikh Dictionary] points to when you look up "sant" [saint].

Hope this helps !

Rgds


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## Balbir27 (Nov 6, 2017)

Thank you "Original", for responding.
However I am now mystified as to the page numbers. Some internet sites give this quotation on page 312 while others give it on page 313.For example, rajkaregakhalsa.net gives this quote on page 313, while srigurugranth.org gives it on page 312.
Searchgurbani.com also gives this quotation on page 312.
Please enlighten me, anyone.


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## Original (Nov 7, 2017)

Balbir27 said:


> I am now mystified


...allow me to demystify !

Correct page is 312 as per SGGSJ and page 313 is the electronic equivalent. But because its a digital configuration variance here n there will occur. Case at hand is a classic example because the original page number got moved to the next page for want of space I guess.

Sorry Balbir, this is the best I could come up with ! Hope it helps -


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## Balbir27 (Nov 7, 2017)

*EK OANKAAR
*
Many thanks "Original", and apologies for diverting from the actual topic. I shall add some humble thoughts, to contribute.

Firstly, the question about the definition of "Sant" raises another question, as to what is the purpose of knowing the definition. If it is not for the reason that one (seeking the path of truth) seeks sincerely and thus may, perhaps, utilise the information, then it becomes simply an academic argument or discussion (Sochai Soch Na Hovai Je Sochai Lakh Baar - Jap Ji Sahib) which may be forgotten in the electronic mists of the internet and time.

For example, I personally seek (as I believe you do), salvation. It is a *very, very* difficult process. It may be easier if one could have the help of a true "Sant" (here again it depends upon "kirpa"). Assuming therefore, that this is the reason for knowing the attributes of a "Sant" and acknowledging that I personally am not anywhere near that category and that I think I am myself a "manmukh", perhaps the following thoughts may help -

The SGGS refers to "Sant" in many places - e.g. "_Pao sant saranee laag charnee mittai dookh andhaar_ ||2||
Do seek the Saint's sanctuary and fall at his feet to remove the misery of your mental darkness." ||2|| SGGS||51. (Hope the page is right)

So the existence of a "Sant" is not questioned. But how does one recognise a true "Sant"?

Starting with the Sikh *Gurus*, I understand them to be "Avtaars" i.e. souls who are close to God and have taken physical birth and form in this material world simply to help mankind.

Remember that Guru Gobind Singh Ji directed that the SGGS shall be the next and eternal Guru, and thus, there cannot be more *Gurus* or Avtaars.

So a "Sant", or more than one, "Sants", are present in this world because the SGGS states so, for the reason that one may seek salvation (from rebirths) by the help of a physical person, as opposed to Avtaars or Gurus (none appear to be present to my mind currently) or the teachings of the SGGS (if one understands it).

The attributes of the *Gurus* are well known (_I am not going into this as this will open up another huge topic_), but I think there is enough information in the SGGS for those who wish to know).

In summary therefore, a "Sant" will have to have similar or very close attributes to the Avtaars or Gurus mentioned above (do the effort and spend the time in finding out).

The other thing is that true "Sants" will *not* go about advertising themselves. One has to *seek them out or they may seek you out *(Hukam).

Remembering that the SGGS informs that no one is outside "Hukam", then it simply is a matter of one's own true yearnings, heartfelt feelings, reflected in real-life behaviour, for one to request or pray for salvation, which is the only and primary aim of human life. All else is false. Whether one gets salvation or not, ultimately is up to the Eternal God to decide.

So, if God wishes you to meet a "Sant", then it is Hukam (regardless of you knowing or not knowing the definition of a "Sant")

But if God does not wish that, then it is still Hukam (again regardless of you knowing or not knowing the definition of a "Sant").

In the end, if one is seeking true salvation, then it is dependant on one's own thoughts. plus or minus HUKAM, according to (the Hukam of) the eternal God.

In the end, what is the use of defining the meaning of a "Sant"? Think.

Personally, I do not know what God thinks of my actions, according my statements given here, but I sincerely apologise for any mistakes that I have made, because, as always, I am a Sikh, a learner, a searcher for the truth.

*Sat Sri Akal*


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## Sikhilove (Nov 10, 2017)

Harry Haller said:


> Although you still have not answered my last question, I have another..
> 
> You mentioned a story about a demon coming up the stairs, and once you realised it was god, it vanished, ok, makes sense, all is one and all that, but what if a rapist had broken in, and was coming up the stairs? my question is, if this is all a play and all the characters are god, at what point do you question the character rather than accept it as a guise of god?
> 
> ...



Self defence. The tenth master taught that we should learn it through his own actions.

If we don't, and we don't teach out kids, that's our problem.

Men and women both fought, Mai Bhago was a prime example of a female warrior.

It's a game but it still has to be played.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 12, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> Self defence. The tenth master taught that we should learn it through his own actions.
> 
> If we don't, and we don't teach out kids, that's our problem.
> 
> ...




thank you, but that is not the question, what you have answered is the question, 'should we fight?' my question is 

A man coming up the stairs with a knife is not going to be disarmed by telling him he is god, so how do you vary your interaction and based on what factor?


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## Balbir27 (Nov 12, 2017)

Harry Haller said:


> A man coming up the stairs with a knife is not going to be disarmed by telling him he is god, so how do you vary your interaction and based on what factor?



The intriguing part of this conversation, for me, is that, how *God, who is Formless* and Omni-present, can appear, *coming up the stairs* or anywhere else for that matter (with or without any knife)? It does not make sense to me, unless the perceiver is a “Guru” himself, but that would raise another question as to why God would personally come after a “Guru” (with or without a knife)? Additionally, I understand it is normally Death who will come for one (regardless of stairs or not) in which case one is a “goner” and the question is superfluous.

Assuming that one can (actually) see a man coming up the stairs with a knife, then “Sikhilove’s” answer of self-defence appears to be the most sensible option, the other, prudent one, being, to run for it! I don't think you could put the situation into "pause" (in the real-world that is) while you evaluate interactions etc.

Maybe I’m missing something here. Maybe I should relax and meditate on the *Naam *more. I think I'll go and do that.....


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## Sikhilove (Nov 12, 2017)

Harry Haller said:


> thank you, but that is not the question, what you have answered is the question, 'should we fight?' my question is
> 
> A man coming up the stairs with a knife is not going to be disarmed by telling him he is god, so how do you vary your interaction and based on what factor?



We've spoken about this many times before Harry.

You accept its your Karam, defend yourself and from thereon, ensure you sow good deeds to earn better Karams.

It's still God, He's Fearlessly serving u your Karam. 

We reap what we sow whether it's from this Janam or previous Kamas. 

Think of all the wrongs people have done to you and others. You think a murderer doesn't deserve karma such as being put in the scenario you've described.

Get rid of your Pity and worldly logic, and look upon everything with Nirvair.

I turned to God through constant Dukhi, Beatings and thinking almost every night that ghost or demons would kill me.

It's a game based on hukam and Karam.

Only He knows why things work the way they do, He knows best and who are we to question it when our Gurus themselves were the perfect examples of accepting His will. Read about the Martyrdom of Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Nov 12, 2017)

It’s better understood when you think of reality in a different way. I just saw on BBC Earh on a program that paradox how can the Universe be both expanding and infinite at the same time? Think of pure thought... a dream.

Imagine you dream tonight that you are a pilot, flying a plane. Your copilot is beside you, and the plane is full of passengers. You hear a loud bang on the flight deck door and bam opens the door and a hijacker enters wielding some sort of weapon.

Now ask yourself these questions:

1. Who was the pilot really? You?
2. Who was the copilot?
3. Who were the passengers?
4. Who was the hijacker???
5. Was your true identity / your substance ever in danger?

The answers are of course that the pilot was not real. It was you playing the character of the pilot. The copilot was also you because it was your dream within your mind and your mind controlled everything. You were also the passengers and the hijacker. And the plane.... and the entire world. Since it all took place in your mind. Now if you slept indefinitely, the dream would be infinite even though you have not yet dreamt all there is to dream in that world because AS you dream it you create more dream world! Therefore both infinite and expanding.

But let’s get back to you... were you the pilot??? If the plane crashed do YOU die??? Or do you just wake up??? You’d likely at this point say that yes but this world is the waking world and therefore we know that everything is real.....
If you never did wake up how real do you think your dreamworld is??? Its all you know and for all you know that is everything and if the hijacker stabs or shoots you you die. Only you don’t... you wake up. The pilot was never real.

Now this world is very much an illusion like the dream. It’s not our dream. We are the characters. Maybe I’m the copilot and you the hijacker. But there is only ONE dreamer. That is Waheguru. And that’s why Waheguru can NEVER take form as an avatar etc. Sometimes a character can conquer death while alive and realize they are in the dream. But then, they know he secret. They really aren’t that separate person. Along with that they also realize every other character is also them. It’s hard to wrap your head around.

Science already knows this world is an illusion with one base energy which is conscious or aware. The double slit experiment shows that subatomic particles can act as both a wave (formless) or a particle (having form) and the ONLY thing which determines it is a conscious observer. That means our awareness the part of us that makes us a sentient being, can not be a product of matter but something outside it.
Einstein said that reality is a persistent illusion. In fact most of everything we think is solid is 99.9999% empty space and what’s left are those subatomic particles that can pop into and out of physical existence based on a conscious observer. So what are we (physically) anyway???? Is that physical body really us??

Anyway point is that although we fight to stay alive this life, which is good and necessary to expand our consciousness as a collective and survive as a species, and the goal is gradual unfolding of spiritual consciousness, or super consciousness... but the drawback is we are so immersed in this dream that we can’t ever fathom that it is in fact a dream. Ever wonder why the Gurus were not afraid to die?? This doesn’t mean allow yourself
To be killed by an intruder. Or allow someone else to be killed or hurt if you can help. That would not help the goal. It’s like the monster in our dreams stopping us from reaching somewhere we have to be. In reality we are the monster. But while in the dream no matter how much we tell ourselves that, we won’t believe it and so we run or fight. And in doing so we either wake up or reach our goal defeating the monster. The takeaway? We grow... wisdom, spirituality etc. 




Balbir27 said:


> The intriguing part of this conversation, for me, is that, how *God, who is Formless* and Omni-present, can appear, *coming up the stairs* or anywhere else for that matter (with or without any knife)? It does not make sense to me, unless the perceiver is a “Guru” himself, but that would raise another question as to why God would personally come after a “Guru” (with or without a knife)? Additionally, I understand it is normally Death who will come for one (regardless of stairs or not) in which case one is a “goner” and the question is superfluous.
> 
> Assuming that one can (actually) see a man coming up the stairs with a knife, then “Sikhilove’s” answer of self-defence appears to be the most sensible option, the other, prudent one, being, to run for it! I don't think you could put the situation into "pause" (in the real-world that is) while you evaluate interactions etc.
> 
> Maybe I’m missing something here. Maybe I should relax and meditate on the *Naam *more. I think I'll go and do that.....


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## Sikhilove (Nov 14, 2017)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> It’s better understood when you think of reality in a different way. I just saw on BBC Earh on a program that paradox how can the Universe be both expanding and infinite at the same time? Think of pure thought... a dream.
> 
> Imagine you dream tonight that you are a pilot, flying a plane. Your copilot is beside you, and the plane is full of passengers. You hear a loud bang on the flight deck door and bam opens the door and a hijacker enters wielding some sort of weapon.
> 
> ...



I like this post.

Were in a constant samadhi/meditation. The world as described in Gurbani is a dream.

But Earth is a blessing. Even Masters can learn here.

The Gurus were born into Janams here.

They learned the reality quickly according to His Will and awoke sleepers to the Truth reality of the Nothingness, and of the Oneness.

Thats Truth.

The human body is a precious jewel. It's His temple.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 15, 2017)

Balbir27 said:


> The intriguing part of this conversation, for me, is that, how *God, who is Formless* and Omni-present, can appear, *coming up the stairs* or anywhere else for that matter (with or without any knife)? It does not make sense to me, unless the perceiver is a “Guru” himself, but that would raise another question as to why God would personally come after a “Guru” (with or without a knife)? Additionally, I understand it is normally Death who will come for one (regardless of stairs or not) in which case one is a “goner” and the question is superfluous.
> 
> Assuming that one can (actually) see a man coming up the stairs with a knife, then “Sikhilove’s” answer of self-defence appears to be the most sensible option, the other, prudent one, being, to run for it! I don't think you could put the situation into "pause" (in the real-world that is) while you evaluate interactions etc.
> 
> Maybe I’m missing something here. Maybe I should relax and meditate on the *Naam *more. I think I'll go and do that.....



The point I am trying to make is that if, as Sikhs believe, God is in everything and in everyone, if one does believe in God, how does one discriminate between what is good and what is bad. If God is indeed in everyone and if lets even say everything is God's will, then how seriously do you take the game of life? We are aware that we should not dwell on happiness or sorrow as a reality, so  how much action should such a believer be taking to ensure they are gaining happiness and losing sorrow?


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## Harry Haller (Nov 15, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> We've spoken about this many times before Harry.



We have, we have, but never really got beyond rhetoric.



Sikhilove said:


> You accept its your Karam, defend yourself and from thereon, ensure you sow good deeds to earn better Karams.



I accept nothing personally, and not the concept of karams, not in a multi lifetime scenario anyway, however if that is what you believe, it answers half the question, I would say then that for you, God is in everything, and the purpose of such is education for the next karam, given the consequences of any action is real and intrusive, then surely the presence of God in everything is a moot point as the knowledge of such is of little help to you if it is for education purposes. Would you say then that if you suffered an attack, that it was God punishing you for a previous karam?

Also you mentioned the demon that vanished when you questioned if it were God, why is it that demon vanished and a rapist would not? the question is how can you tell the difference? If the rapist is divine justice for a previous life, then what does the demon that vanishes when you pronounce it God, represent?

thank you


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## Harry Haller (Nov 15, 2017)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> It’s better understood when you think of reality in a different way. I just saw on BBC Earh on a program that paradox how can the Universe be both expanding and infinite at the same time? Think of pure thought... a dream.



I don't want to think of reality in a different way, that would be tailoring the question to the answer, I want to think of reality as it is, reality.



Harkiran Kaur said:


> Imagine you dream tonight that you are a pilot, flying a plane. Your copilot is beside you, and the plane is full of passengers. You hear a loud bang on the flight deck door and bam opens the door and a hijacker enters wielding some sort of weapon.
> 
> Now ask yourself these questions:
> 
> ...



cannot fault that in any way shape of form



Harkiran Kaur said:


> But let’s get back to you... were you the pilot??? If the plane crashed do YOU die??? Or do you just wake up??? You’d likely at this point say that yes but this world is the waking world and therefore we know that everything is real.....
> If you never did wake up how real do you think your dreamworld is??? Its all you know and for all you know that is everything and if the hijacker stabs or shoots you you die. Only you don’t... you wake up. The pilot was never real.



so far, so good, yup, in complete agreement



Harkiran Kaur said:


> Now this world is very much an illusion like the dream




ahhh, ok, stop there, that does not work, the world may well be an illusion like a dream to you, and I completely respect that, no problem, but it is not for me, I know the difference between the world and a dream, and they are very different, so telling me they are the same does not work, there are very very major differences between the two, it is like telling me that dreaming about sex is the same is having sex. 



Harkiran Kaur said:


> It’s not our dream.



Ok, so then it is the creators dream, ok fine, I can understand the concept, but to get a fairer argument, whereas in the dream we are the main character, according to this argument, in real life we are relegated to a bit part actor where the creator is the main character, this would suggest then that we are merely traces of god with no real will or purpose than to reflect the wishes of the main character, which I do not think is your argument, but correct me please if I am wrong. 



Harkiran Kaur said:


> We are the characters. Maybe I’m the copilot and you the hijacker. But there is only ONE dreamer. That is Waheguru.



ok, accepted


Harkiran Kaur said:


> And that’s why Waheguru can NEVER take form as an avatar etc. Sometimes a character can conquer death while alive and realize they are in the dream. But then, they know he secret. They really aren’t that separate person. Along with that they also realize every other character is also them. It’s hard to wrap your head around.



nope not at all, its very very easy to get your head around, however, I would wager than anyone that did conquer death while still alive would not have the normal desires and needs of a normal person, they would in effect , be nothing, want nothing, they would just be happy to be at one with the dream, do you ever lucid dream? I have not for a while, but I used to quite often before, as a child, I would steal buses and cars, and drive around crashing into things, as I got older, the dream became more sexual, I think as the novelty wore off, towards the end, I would just sit and watch, and just enjoy the dream, there was no one to impress, no goal to fulfill, just me, and a world where I could do anything and be anyone



Harkiran Kaur said:


> Science already knows this world is an illusion with one base energy which is conscious or aware. The double slit experiment shows that subatomic particles can act as both a wave (formless) or a particle (having form) and the ONLY thing which determines it is a conscious observer. That means our awareness the part of us that makes us a sentient being, can not be a product of matter but something outside it.



I can understand that



Harkiran Kaur said:


> Einstein said that reality is a persistent illusion. In fact most of everything we think is solid is 99.9999% empty space and what’s left are those subatomic particles that can pop into and out of physical existence based on a conscious observer. So what are we (physically) anyway???? Is that physical body really us??



Again, understandable and agreeable 



Harkiran Kaur said:


> Anyway point is that although we fight to stay alive this life, which is good and necessary to expand our consciousness as a collective and survive as a species, and the goal is gradual unfolding of spiritual consciousness, or super consciousness... but the drawback is we are so immersed in this dream that we can’t ever fathom that it is in fact a dream. Ever wonder why the Gurus were not afraid to die?? This doesn’t mean allow yourself
> To be killed by an intruder. Or allow someone else to be killed or hurt if you can help. That would not help the goal. It’s like the monster in our dreams stopping us from reaching somewhere we have to be. In reality we are the monster. But while in the dream no matter how much we tell ourselves that, we won’t believe it and so we run or fight. And in doing so we either wake up or reach our goal defeating the monster. The takeaway? We grow... wisdom, spirituality etc.



You have hit the nail on the head why the dream theory cannot be correct, if a large proportion of society were to accept this concept, or heaven forbid, it were to become common practice, then we would stop fighting, stop searching, stop expanding that collective consciousness, and we would not survive as a species, it is our egos and our pride, our desires and our lusts that drive us, that motivate us, so I would now ask you the question, you know the truth, you know the truth of the dream, what motivates you? what drives you? and more to the point why?

thank you


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## Harkiran Kaur (Nov 15, 2017)

What motivates me is that I wish to accomplish the goal. That can’t be done as an individual. There is a collective consciousness going on. In fact the whole dream has to wake up so I’d like to stick around and help others do just that. I can’t do that by crashing buses into things.

And you are concerned about only being a bit character. Well no, because that character is not YOU. Just like in the dream where you literally saw through the characters eyes and thought you were that character so too is the same in this world. Only the physical body of Harry is not really who you are. Remember only one dreamer and and only one consciousness. It’s not that you are a bit character and a nobody who will cease to exist. More like you will one day wake up and realize you never really were Harry... same as the pilot... or the bus crasher LOL


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## Harry Haller (Nov 15, 2017)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> What motivates me is that I wish to accomplish the goal. That can’t be done as an individual. There is a collective consciousness going on. In fact the whole dream has to wake up so I’d like to stick around and help others do just that. I can’t do that by crashing buses into things.



agreed, its the child in me, so the goal is for the whole dream to wake up? which only happens when you completely merge with God?



Harkiran Kaur said:


> And you are concerned about only being a bit character. Well no, because that character is not YOU. Just like in the dream where you literally saw through the characters eyes and thought you were that character so too is the same in this world. Only the physical body of Harry is not really who you are. Remember only one dreamer and and only one consciousness. It’s not that you are a bit character and a nobody who will cease to exist. More like you WJKK one day wake up and realize you never really were Harry... same as the pilot... or the bus crasher LOL



In my own way I guess I have woken up, my goal is slightly different, its nothing. When your goal is nothing, then the dream becomes nothing too, I now do understand your concept, completely, thank you for taking the time to explain, 

however, 






I still wish to know how seriously you play the game, regardless of the end goal, to me, nothing matters, its quite peaceful, given we both know its a game, what matters to you?


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## Harry Haller (Nov 15, 2017)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> What motivates me is that I wish to accomplish the goal. That can’t be done as an individual. There is a collective consciousness going on. In fact the whole dream has to wake up so I’d like to stick around and help others do just that. I can’t do that by crashing buses into things.



agreed, its the child in me, so the goal is for the whole dream to wake up? which only happens when you completely merge with God?



Harkiran Kaur said:


> And you are concerned about only being a bit character. Well no, because that character is not YOU. Just like in the dream where you literally saw through the characters eyes and thought you were that character so too is the same in this world. Only the physical body of Harry is not really who you are. Remember only one dreamer and and only one consciousness. It’s not that you are a bit character and a nobody who will cease to exist. More like you WJKK one day wake up and realize you never really were Harry... same as the pilot... or the bus crasher LOL



In my own way I guess I have woken up, my goal is slightly different, its nothing. When your goal is nothing, then the dream becomes nothing too, I now do understand your concept, completely, thank you for taking the time to explain,

however,






I still wish to know how seriously you play the game, regardless of the end goal, to me, very little matters, its quite peaceful, given we both know its a game, what matters to you?


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## Balbir27 (Nov 15, 2017)

Harry Haller said:


> I still wish to know how seriously you play the game, regardless of the end goal, to me, very little matters, its quite peaceful, given we both know its a game, what matters to you?



The Game, Dear Sir, and you accept, is played by both parties (you and Harkiran Kaur). Assuming I am also part of the 2nd party, let us put it into a more inclusive context. You say that "_very little matters_" to you as far as the Game or the seriousness is concerned. You say that "_its quite peaceful_" for you. You say "_for both it is a game_", but what "_matters to you_?".

It matters to me and I play the game pretty seriously, as I am sure Harkiran Kaur does, from her statements.

I have a goal, in that I seek salvation from this Illusionary World (your dream world). You don't appear to have one. Can you kindly explain, Sir, why you do not have a goal in life?


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## Harry Haller (Nov 15, 2017)

Balbir27 said:


> It matters to me and I play the game pretty seriously, as I am sure Harkiran Kaur does, from her statements.



Could you elaborate on that, what constitutes playing the game pretty seriously?



Balbir27 said:


> I have a goal, in that I seek salvation from this Illusionary World (your dream world)



Ack, thats the trouble with people today, you just always want something better, what a great world full of pleasures and pursuits, and yet some seek salvation from it, I do not seek salvation from it, I am free to pick and choose exactly what I do, for the hell of it, I have no agenda. 



Balbir27 said:


> You don't appear to have one. Can you kindly explain, Sir, why you do not have a goal in life?



Simply, I have no goal so I have no journey, this means I just get the best of every day, there is no ending, there are no fireworks, God in his sandals and white beard does not cradle you up in his arms and clasp you to his bossom, well not for me anyway, maybe for you, so I have nothing to look forward to, nothing, in effect to deviate me from today, Nothing is not the same as negative, nothing means simply that, nothing, if this is all a dream, I still have to wake up tomorrow and treat it as if it were not, here's something quite funny, what happens if when you all realise that the dream was there to be lived, was actually the main course, and there is nothing after?

I have this wonderfully enduring image of God saying, "whatdya mean you waited for it to finish so you could meet me, I just gave you something wonderful, and you spent the entire time wanting to meet me"


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## Sikhilove (Nov 15, 2017)

Harry Haller said:


> We have, we have, but never really got beyond rhetoric.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It was a soul in the second energy. The second energy is different to the third energy(world) in which we've been blessed to have been born. 

 Here we have souls in human bodies, we've been blessed with temples(the body) to sit in and contemplate Him and to glorify Truth by practicing it in action. 

The rapist disrespects his temple and the temple of others by his deeds and they never go unpunished. There's a consequence of every action, freewill gives us a choice and it's up to us what we choose. 

This world isn't the end. When we die, the road after (in illusion) can be terrifying without the Truth. Rapists don't just exist in the third energy. A rapist in this energy is in fact a demon but it's covered by the human body. There's worse than that afterwards if you have a messed up psychology. 

Regarding Karam, previous Janams etc, I go by what the Gurus taught, not by worldly knowledge. 

Here, we learn to accept His will/ hukam. We take action, but we keep practicing the psychology of Truth throughout. 

We learn the psychology of acceptance and True Sehaj even in the midst of immense pain and suffering as well as in the midst of great joy and celebration.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 16, 2017)

wonderful answers but not the one I am looking for, the crux of this question is simple, given what some of you know about the world, and the way it works, how does it affect your ability to interact with it and what is your goal



Sikhilove said:


> It was a soul in the second energy. The second energy is different to the third energy(world) in which we've been blessed to have been born.


although this is rhetoric



Sikhilove said:


> Here we have souls in human bodies, we've been blessed with temples(the body) to sit in and contemplate Him and to glorify Truth by practicing it in action.



who is him? God? is God a him? or are you just talking in general, if you are talking in general, perhaps the God that you hold so dear should be spoken about explicitly, do you believe God to be a man? Does God wish to be contemplated? You talk of glorifying truth by practicing it, yet you cannot even be bothered to answer a simple question without grandly referring me to your previous answer, glory to the truth eh..?



Sikhilove said:


> The rapist disrespects his temple and the temple of others by his deeds and they never go unpunished. There's a consequence of every action, freewill gives us a choice and it's up to us what we choose.



ah yes, this 'other' world where we reap our punishments and rewards, does this mean that every person that suffers in this world was a bad person in a previous life?



Sikhilove said:


> This world isn't the end. When we die, the road after (in illusion) can be terrifying without the Truth. Rapists don't just exist in the third energy. A rapist in this energy is in fact a demon but it's covered by the human body. There's worse than that afterwards if you have a messed up psychology.



which brings me back to my original question that you have, in the glory of truth, once again been unable to answer, you banished a demon by calling it god, now your telling me that a rapist is a demon, were the people that killed Sikhs in 84, demons? why did they not all just laugh and say, 'oh its only god' and watch it vanish? How do you know which demons vanish and which do not?



Sikhilove said:


> Regarding Karam, previous Janams etc, I go by what the Gurus taught, not by worldly knowledge.



no you don't, you go by your interpretation of what the Gurus taught, or are you telling us that you have perfected the interpretation of the Gurus and know exactly what is what, is there room for learning in your repertoire, or do you feel you have cracked and nailed it? you certainly talk like you have. 



Sikhilove said:


> Here, we learn to accept His will/ hukam. We take action, but we keep practicing the psychology of Truth throughout.


 Could you define for me what will/hukam means, and no naughty lies about answering it before, just try and be honest with me, if you are able to. 



Sikhilove said:


> We learn the psychology of acceptance and True Sehaj even in the midst of immense pain and suffering as well as in the midst of great joy and celebration.



to what end?

now , as I said, if you cannot answer, please do not lie about giving an answer previously that you have not, just say, I don't know, its quite simple

thank you


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## Original (Nov 16, 2017)

Dear All - Good morning,

After reading Harry Ji's conversation with Sikhilove Ji, I couldn't persuade myself to leave it thus, misunderstood.

I think we need to be reminded that the "words" and institutions [Sikh] are supposed to inspire *trust* in one another. SPN is no exception.

Human interactions are built on trust. We trust others to handover the goods over the counter when a purchase is made. We trust doctors with our lives and Banks with our money. We trust governments to deliver us to the promised land and newspapers to report how they're doing it. Then why is it that when we're engaged in an intellectual debate we begin doubting and discrediting those that we wilfully chose to be engaged with in the first place ? Indeed, they could be wrong, mistaken, deluded whatever, or worse case scenario, advancing an alien agenda defying both reason and observation, but surely not liars ? Nutters maybe, which is a capacity issue and not integrity. Put another way: without trust society would collapse.

Giving others their dignity protects our integrity and honour. Human knowledge grows out of such differences of opinions, different systems of belief and different ideologies. There is no need to stoop to a level where another's respect and dignity is compromised. 

We all have so much to offer and receive from one another. And especially in this contemporary world one must understand other nations ideologies and faith in order to grasp the meaning and purpose of life as seen from perspectives often very different from our own.

In writing this short text no offence or injury to one's belief, value and view was intended. However, if I've failed in achieving the desired objective then I stand reprimanded. All too often I have been at crossroads and unsure whether I have chosen the most suitable. Forgive me if you will.

Warm regards


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## Harry Haller (Nov 16, 2017)

Original said:


> After reading Harry Ji's conversation with Sikhilove Ji, I couldn't persuade myself to leave it thus, misunderstood.



with respect it is not your place to do so, I am sure SL is more than capable of answering, unless you feel I have made inappropriate statements in which case I would welcome you drawing my attention to it.



Original said:


> Human interactions are built on trust. We trust others to handover the goods over the counter when a purchase is made. We trust doctors with our lives and Banks with our money. We trust governments to deliver us to the promised land and newspapers to report how they're doing it. Then why is it that when we're engaged in an intellectual debate we begin doubting and discrediting those that we wilfully chose to be engaged with in the first place ? Indeed, they could be wrong, mistaken, deluded whatever, or worse case scenario, advancing an alien agenda defying both reason and observation, but surely not liars ? Nutters maybe, which is a capacity issue and not integrity. Put another way: without trust society would collapse.



Nope, I do not possess trust, and luckily, I reject society, I politely enquire, I hope it comes across like that.



Original said:


> Giving others their dignity protects our integrity and honour.



I have neither to protect, I have no place for my own honour, or whatever integrity society deems acceptable at the current moment,

but I do not take away peoples dignity either, I merely ask them to confirm the dignity they have bestowed on themselves.



Original said:


> We all have so much to offer and receive from one another



I do not wish anything from anyone, and I have little to offer, I remain, the small child laughing at the emperor with no clothes, that is my role in my life, I am happy with such.



Original said:


> I However, if I've failed in achieving the desired objective then I stand reprimanded. All too often I have been at crossroads and unsure whether I have chosen the most suitable. Forgive me if you will.



What a strange world we live in where this has to be stated, maybe when I speak I should preface each post with the following, "in writing this short text no offence or injury to one's belief, value and view was intended", is that how PC we have become, no forgiveness needed, you are an active and respected member of this forum, this forum self moderates, and most members are mature and thick skinned enough to take criticism and learn from it, rather than throwing toys out of the pram,  I found your post very suitable, I understand what you are trying to say,  so noted, and understood, thank you


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## Balbir27 (Nov 16, 2017)

Harry Haller said:


> Could you elaborate on that, what constitutes playing the game pretty seriously?





Harry Haller said:


> Ack, thats the trouble with people today, you just always want something better, what a great world full of pleasures and pursuits, and yet some seek salvation from it, I do not seek salvation from it, I am free to pick and choose exactly what I do, for the hell of it, I have no agenda.



Dear Harry Ji

You posed some questions for me, based on my post at #43 above, and, I see that a lot of water has passed under the bridge since yesterday. I tread therefore with trepidation and I do not know if you will reject my answers and statements, poke holes in them while not giving any _reasons_ yourself, or, address them. But here goes:

You asked “_what constitutes playing the game pretty seriously_”?

For me, that’s working pretty hard to keep the 5 “thieves” at bay and doing “meditation” daily, for starters.

You rejected my statement that “_I seek salvation from_…) yet did not give any reason why you did so. I am interested why.

I posed a question for you “_why you do not have a goal in mind_”?

You evaded the answer directly and made a joke (“_here’s something quite funny_”) about God "_whatdya mean you waited for it to finish so you could meet me, I just gave you something wonderful, and you spent the entire time wanting to meet me_".

So my understanding is that you believe that

1)  there *is* a God, but he has put you on this Earth to _enjoy_ everything (“the main course” and “nothing after”) (Can you explain why you believe this is the correct model or have I misunderstood you?)

2)  there is nothing after the main course (but how did you end up meeting God afterwards and what was the purpose, if there is "nothing after"?)

3)  the image of God is someone wearing a white beard (therefore a man) with sandals (who is cracking jokes as above). (So are you, on the other hand, an atheist who makes fun about God or am I confused?)

*I intend no offence and welcome any criticism, but I need to understand what you understand, and need reasons from you for your statements and rejections just like most of us give, so that a reasonable discussion may continue and that we may help each other. There is absolutely nothing wrong in having a particular belief or view, but it should be clear, apparent and supported with reasons. Otherwise, it would be pointless or enigmatic  to continue, don’t you think?*


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## Harry Haller (Nov 16, 2017)

Balbir27 said:


> I tread therefore with trepidation


why? I have never been precious. 



Balbir27 said:


> do not know if you will reject my answers and statements


I will agree with the ones that I resonate with and reject the rest, no offence intended



Balbir27 said:


> For me, that’s working pretty hard to keep the 5 “thieves” at bay and doing “meditation” daily, for starters.



its actually not that hard, most of thieves only appear when you are not alone, the more time you spend alone, the less pull the thieves have over you, the less interaction, the less they intrude. I sleep a lot, which is a form of meditation. 



Balbir27 said:


> You rejected my statement that “_I seek salvation from_…) yet did not give any reason why you did so. I am interested why.



my apologies, I find it strange that anyone would seek anything after a while, I have been a seeker too, and have sought many things, found many things, it is not in my opinion a natural state, in that you cannot be yourself when you are seeking, when you want, when you desire,no matter what it is, be it salvation or a new mercedes. I want for nothing, you cannot say the same. 



Balbir27 said:


> why you do not have a goal in mind



I have had many goals in my life, many many strange goals, to be a big powerful rich man, to sleep with lots of women, to bow down to the wishes of my ego and my pride, and then to marry, to be a father, a husband, a lover, a man, to be a Sikh, yes, many goals, I have seen much, and much has lost its shine, I allowed myself to become embroiled in the world, to be embroiled in maya, and now, my goal is to have no goals, just to live, in whatever fashion I wish. 



Balbir27 said:


> So my understanding is that you believe that
> 
> 1) there *is* a God, but he has put you on this Earth to _enjoy_ everything (“the main course” and “nothing after”) (Can you explain why you believe this is the correct model or have I misunderstood you?)



I believe that there is a God, but it is not a he, and it does not actually do anything, it just detonated the big bang, and then went off and did something else. However, yes, you get a life, and then you die, and that's it.



Balbir27 said:


> 2) there is nothing after the main course (but how did you end up meeting God afterwards and what was the purpose, if there is "nothing after"?)



Well it is my opinion that you do not meet God after, you just die, the big sleep, there is no purpose, no point, just today. Today, though it is possible to experience God, and the Devil, depending on your outlook and your needs. 



Balbir27 said:


> 3) the image of God is someone wearing a white beard (therefore a man) with sandals (who is cracking jokes as above). (So are you, on the other hand, an atheist who makes fun about God or am I confused?)



 Don't be confused, there is nothing funny about an image of God wearing sandals with a big beard, this is not comedy, this is something different, this is satire, you called God a he, can you tell me how you see this God male form of humankind.



Balbir27 said:


> I intend no offence and welcome any criticism, but I need to understand what you understand, and need reasons from you for your statements and rejections just like most of us give, so that a reasonable discussion may continue and that we may help each other. There is absolutely nothing wrong in having a particular belief or view, but it should be clear, apparent and supported with reasons. Otherwise, it would be pointless or enigmatic to continue, don’t you think?



For you to understand what I understand completely, you have to have had walked in my footsteps, as I would have to walk in yours to understand you, I have given up trying to understand, I know what I know, I live how I live, we are all free to do so


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## Balbir27 (Nov 16, 2017)

Harry Haller Ji, an enigma at first, I feel I can now _start understanding_ you, as a fellow SPNer much better (as opposed to _knowing_ someone).




Harry Haller said:


> New why? I have never been precious.



Trepidation = a feeling of fear or anxiety about something that may happen.

In what context have you used the expression “precious”, pray tell me?



Harry Haller said:


> I will agree with the ones that I resonate with and reject the rest, no offence intended



Hope you will give your reasons as well.



Harry Haller said:


> its actually not that hard, most of thieves only appear when you are not alone, the more time you spend alone, the less pull the thieves have over you, the less interaction, the less they intrude. I sleep a lot, which is a form of meditation.



I’m afraid it’s harder for me as I cannot live like a hermit, having obligations and responsibilities to family and friends, so have to deal with any thieves when I meet them.

For me sleep is “recharging” my brain batteries. Also I think I would be “cheating” if I did not sacrifice some waking time for meditation.



Harry Haller said:


> my apologies, I find it strange that anyone would seek anything after a while, I have been a seeker too, and have sought many things, found many things, it is not in my opinion a natural state, in that you cannot be yourself when you are seeking, when you want, when you desire,no matter what it is, be it salvation or a new mercedes. I want for nothing, you cannot say the same.



I believe you are referring to “material” seeking’s where you are correct. I refer to “spiritual” freedom from material stuff and freedom from repeating birth/death cycles. I’ve seen enough here. I had nothing, God gave, took away then gave again. I think it is not a desire per se (as actively going in search of) but a passive patient wait for the Mukti (however it may present itself. So I too want for nothing as you do.



Harry Haller said:


> I have had many goals in my life, many many strange goals, to be a big powerful rich man, to sleep with lots of women, to bow down to the wishes of my ego and my pride, and then to marry, to be a father, a husband, a lover, a man, to be a Sikh, yes, many goals, I have seen much, and much has lost its shine, I allowed myself to become embroiled in the world, to be embroiled in maya, and now, my goal is to have no goals, just to live, in whatever fashion I wish.



*Just to live in whatever fashion, is still a goal. *Like you, I have also had many goals in life, some I achieved and some I did not. I too have seen much and for me too, much has lost its shine. Like you, I too got robbed by different thieves at different times. Some of these thieves are still trying.

Continued..


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## Balbir27 (Nov 16, 2017)

Harry Haller said:


> I believe that there is a God, but it is not a he, and it does not actually do anything, it just detonated the big bang, and then went off and did something else. However, yes, you get a life, and then you die, and that's it.



My mistake, sorry. I do not believe God has any shape or form, so not a He or She. God is God for want of a better name.
You appear to call it an "It" - The Penguin English Dictionary gives the definition of "It", used as a subject or object, as "that thing, creature, group, the person in question". Is that correct? 
So God created the "Big Bang" then went off and did something else. It is beyond human comprehension, at least mine, for that matter, that God did that - imagine the power, the force - I cannot. 
So God went off and did something else. What is God doing now and what is that something else that God did?
"Get a life" - yes. "Then you die" - for me, only as far as the physical body is concerned. "and that's it" - it may be your belief but it is not mine simply because the "thing" inside us is immortal.

The post is getting too long now. So I'll end here, for now.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 16, 2017)

Balbir27 said:


> Trepidation = a feeling of fear or anxiety about something that may happen.
> 
> In what context have you used the expression “precious”, pray tell me?



I do not consider myself precious, I have no belief system myself, so I am not interested in using that to propagate my own thoughts, in that avenue, all options remain open, all opinions must be respected, however, the litmus test is key here, my opinions are merely my opinions, if they are shot down factually, if they fail the litmus test, no one will be more happy about it than me, as I will have learned something. 



Balbir27 said:


> I’m afraid it’s harder for me as I cannot live like a hermit, having obligations and responsibilities to family and friends, so have to deal with any thieves when I meet them.



yes that is hard, I do not envy you. I only have to walk down the street and listen to conversations to know that keeping ones mind uncluttered with pointless information is indeed a good thing. 



Balbir27 said:


> For me sleep is “recharging” my brain batteries. Also I think I would be “cheating” if I did not sacrifice some waking time for meditation.



Sacrifice? you make it sound like a chore, or something that must be done, any meditation and deep thinking I do in between sleeping. 



Balbir27 said:


> I believe you are referring to “material” seeking’s where you are correct. I refer to “spiritual” freedom from material stuff and freedom from repeating birth/death cycles. I’ve seen enough here. I had nothing, God gave, took away then gave again. I think it is not a desire per se (as actively going in search of) but a passive patient wait for the Mukti (however it may present itself. So I too want for nothing as you do.



Nope, seeking is seeking, whether its for education, sex, knowledge, wisdom, a new car, love, whatever, its all seeking, its all trying to fill the void, trying to understand why the big black horrible damp dank hole wishes to swallow us up, some people know about the void, others do not, some fill it, some pretend it isn't there, you seek Mukti, I only wish to maintain what I have, which is pretty much nothing anyway, although within nothing is freedom, freedom is good, freedom allows you to be free.To be truly free in my opinion is to want for nothing and to be content with what you have, in that state, no one owns you, nothing owns you, not even Mukti. 



Balbir27 said:


> *Just to live in whatever fashion, is still a goal. *Like you, I have also had many goals in life, some I achieved and some I did not. I too have seen much and for me too, much has lost its shine. Like you, I too got robbed by different thieves at different times. Some of these thieves are still trying.



Nope, as I said, I wish to continue, not to aspire to another level, you could say that wishing to continue is a goal, but it would only be so, if I ceased to continue, so we have not reached that point. Life has not lost its shine at all for me, life becomes an adventure every day, but an adventure free of the requirements of social interaction, no one upsets me, as I don't interact, no one hates me, but the flip side is of course, no one validates me, and no one loves me, so I spend my day working and doing the things that give me pleasure, whatever that may be on whatever day. I have few problems with the thieves, one thing you notice about solitude is a lack of ego, that is not to say I have conquered ego, I have merely put myself in circumstances where there is no need for ego, if I were to fall in love and get married, obviously my ego would return, or get a job, or even attend a family wedding, but as long as I enjoy the freedom of solitude, no ego is not a problem, neither is conceit, same principles, rage, I have never had a problem with, if anything, my biggest problem is not getting angry, attachment, yes, I suffer that, to my parents, and my 20 year old range rover, and my freedom, if I lost those, then I would probably be better off dead, maybe a visit to dignitas, or possibly a new firm I have read about, indignitas, similar procedure, but they dress you as a clown and throw you out a window, so yes, I suffer that one, and of course, lust, 



Balbir27 said:


> My mistake, sorry. I do not believe God has any shape or form, so not a He or She. God is God for want of a better name.
> You appear to call it an "It" - The Penguin English Dictionary gives the definition of "It", used as a subject or object, as "that thing, creature, group, the person in question". Is that correct?
> So God created the "Big Bang" then went off and did something else. It is beyond human comprehension, at least mine, for that matter, that God did that - imagine the power, the force - I cannot.
> So God went off and did something else. What is God doing now and what is that something else that God did?
> "Get a life" - yes. "Then you die" - for me, only as far as the physical body is concerned. "and that's it" - it may be your belief but it is not mine simply because the "thing" inside us is immortal.



Ah well you see the litmus test confirms my view, because if God did not go off and do something else, then God did not do a fantastic job given the pain and suffering in the world, no God I could believe in could watch this pain, even use it as a means of teaching, or punishing, and call themselves a God, No God I could believe in could hand out miracles to a certain few for the most mundane of requests (just listen to any Ardass on a sunday) and ignore this suffering, the litmus tests means that God either is unable to do anything, or has a policy of nil intervention for everyone, so I am nothing special, God does not love me, if he did, then I would be confused, why love me, and not the woman being raped in a war zone, or the man being killed, or the many number of people that would suffer today, I do not wish a God to love me and ignore this, that is no God of mine, it sounds more like a Devil. But then, when you look at the attitude to God in the whole, the whole God concept has actually turned him/it into a Devil, this devil is bargained with, promises are made, gifts exchanged, oaths are sworn, all for either material or mental gain, what person, facing death, does not instantly start making deals with this Devil, The Devil corrupts and is corruptible, God does neither, God says, do your own thing, deal with the consequences, and deal with anything that happens in between, here, have a brain, that will help, and then he's off, zoom, whoosh, bang, 

The thing inside us dies with us, but then who can really say, who knows, we could argue till the cows come home, even the litmus test is silent on that one.


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## Sikhilove (Nov 16, 2017)

Original said:


> Dear All - Good morning,
> 
> After reading Harry Ji's conversation with Sikhilove Ji, I couldn't persuade myself to leave it thus, misunderstood.
> 
> ...



Thankyou for the lovely post ji.

I read a few lines here and there of the post by Harry Ji and chose to stop and not read any further. I choose not to engage in or entertain such disrespect and negativity.

We all have the freedom of choice and to Argue with a Fool Makes Two.

You are a Civilized human being Original Ji and so your inspiring post comes as no surprise


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## Harry Haller (Nov 17, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> Thankyou for the lovely post ji.
> 
> I read a few lines here and there of the post by Harry Ji and chose to stop and not read any further. I choose not to engage in or entertain such disrespect and negativity.
> 
> ...



no problem at all, but in calling me a fool, are you not calling God a fool? You can see God in a demon but not in me? You say we all have the freedom of choice, but then you say that it is all his command and hukam, so which is it? 

Perhaps I could ask you some easier questions if you wish, say the colour of our hair, or your favourite pop group? No problem at all, I will try my best not to burden you with questions you are unable or unwilling to answer, you carry on preaching, I guess its safe to preach and know all when you do not, or cannot justify it.

And that deal Balbirji, is a pretty good idea of what being precious means, thank you SL for taking the time to enlighten us all.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 17, 2017)

Original said:


> Dear All - Good morning,
> 
> After reading Harry Ji's conversation with Sikhilove Ji, I couldn't persuade myself to leave it thus, misunderstood.
> 
> ...



I stand corrected, SL is not able to answer, perhaps if anyone could else could answer my questions, that would be indeed, great!


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## Balbir27 (Nov 17, 2017)

Harry Ji


Harry Haller said:


> I stand corrected, SL is not able to answer, perhaps if anyone could else could answer my questions, that would be indeed, great!



Perhaps its because this discussion, now, is off topic. I'm discontinuing myself as well.

Also it is only about 14 minutes (litmus test?) between your last 2 posts before you declared yourself the "winner". 

It would be a pleasure to meet again in the right topic area, by the Grace of God.

Many times, I have got tired and weary and confused simply because the OP thread led to something totally different and not what I was really looking for. Not good for newcomers like me. Also denotes chaos although I understand "leeway".

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Nov 17, 2017)

Perhaps we could start a thread on the purpose of life according to Gurbani??



Balbir27 said:


> Harry Ji
> 
> 
> Perhaps its because this discussion, now, is off topic. I'm discontinuing myself as well.
> ...


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## Harry Haller (Nov 18, 2017)

I agree, your absolutely correct, firstly the OP back in 2011, must be very upset his thread has been hijacked, secondly, of course there is no relevance between what a holy man is in Sikhism, and what is holy in Sikhism, no relevance at all, clearly rhetoric and self posturing is more important than providing answers that make sense in the real world, rather than in the mind, I really thought I would miss interaction, and in a sense, I do, but this,  and what passes for interaction period, seems merely listen to my agenda, and my wise words, but do not ask me to explain it, well done everyone! 

Brilliant!


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## Original (Nov 18, 2017)

Good morning Everyone


Harkiran Kaur said:


> Perhaps we could start a thread on the purpose of life according to Gurbani??



Harkiran Ji, purpose as per Gurbani is clearly stated - look here* [bold*]: ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਦੁਪਦੇ ॥ ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥* ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ* ॥ ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥ ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥ ਸਰੰਜਾਮਿ ਲਾਗੁ ਭਵਜਲ ਤਰਨ ਕੈ ॥ ਜਨਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਾਤ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਸੇਵਾ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਮ ਨੀਚ ਕਰੰਮਾ ॥ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਕੀ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਮਾ ॥੨॥੨੯॥ *SGGSJ,378* II

Translation [bold]: human birth is to meet God.

*Explanation*

In understanding Gurbani it must be noted that this is the "word"* [shabd]* of God. But before exploring Gurbani and Banikars [authors of SGGSJ] active engagement with society and pre-Sikh religions, there are important considerations to be had, that is, Banikars and purpose [mission] - how do they interact ? from where does "inspiration" come ? what is its relation to the human factor ? from where are the poetry and the eloquence ? If we say it is 'of God', in what sense is it also 'of Banikars' ? Is the divine believed to be in the abeyance of human powers, or present, maximising human powers ?

Sikh thought is to the former, in that, the Banikars had no formal education to enable such graphic accounts of the metaphysical and the transcendent worlds . Hence the reason their utterance and compositions must be wholly "given" from beyond.

The compositions are not conscious deliberations, brooding on meanings and finding its own words, but rather, mouthpieces without mental forethought to sermonise the eternal message. The message is not of its own making and is authentic, in that, it is given in this way - revealed. Thus the uneducated Banikar becomes the fount of truth.* By these tokens it is manifest that the person speaks from God.*

The theoretical thought of Guru Nanak in constituting general principles [nam jap, vand shak and kirat kar] underpinning Sikhism is to that end - God you will meet when you walk on this path.

Much obliged


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## Sikhilove (Nov 18, 2017)

Original said:


> Good morning Everyone
> 
> 
> Harkiran Ji, purpose as per Gurbani is clearly stated - look here* [bold*]: ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਦੁਪਦੇ ॥ ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥* ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ* ॥ ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥ ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥ ਸਰੰਜਾਮਿ ਲਾਗੁ ਭਵਜਲ ਤਰਨ ਕੈ ॥ ਜਨਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਾਤ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਸੇਵਾ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਮ ਨੀਚ ਕਰੰਮਾ ॥ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਕੀ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਮਾ ॥੨॥੨੯॥ *SGGSJ,378* II
> ...



Gyan spoken by and shown by Him through the Heart of the student.

The students applied and experienced the gyan and became the teacher.. Only with His love and grace.


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## Original (Nov 19, 2017)

SLG

The real you is looking *cool n deadly* ! look here:

"Thankyou for the lovely post ji". It was the* "Ji"* that knocked me out

And again, when addressing brother H, " Harry *Ji"*
that's 2 knockouts in 1hit [#54] - take it easy !

The demon in the hallway must've done something what the guru in the granth couldn't !

HKJ's  gonna have a field day coz it corroborates with her "dream theory" - god playing the demon character - hooray !

Love n Live


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