# Kirpan Attack By Dasam Granth Advocates Renews Sikh Dagger Debate: Did We Need This?



## roab1 (Apr 7, 2010)

_*The so called pendu mentality. Once again larger community will have to suffer because of 'heroic bravery' of few. Province of Quebec has already banned niqab and noone will shed a tear if Kirpan is next. 
*_ *
Attack renews Sikh dagger debate* *Temple president stabbed  with kirpan*


                       The crowd of about 150 people was yelling obscenities and  threats outside the Sikh Lehar Centre in Brampton when three temple  officials stepped out to pacify them. 

    Within seconds, one in the crowd, clutching a thick steel bangle,  punched Manjit Mangat, the 53-year-old president of the Sikh temple, in  the face. Witnesses say at least two men brandished unsheathed kirpans,  the Sikh ceremonial dagger. 

    The next moment, Mangat, a prominent Brampton lawyer, was on the  ground — his face bloodied and a 5-inch wound in his abdomen. 
    Brampton’s Sukhwant Singh, in his early 50s, has been charged with  attempted murder and aggravated assault, Peel police say. Singh’s next  court appearance is on Thursday.

    Any weapon could have been used in the attack, but the fact that it  was a kirpan alarms Sikh leaders who fear the incident will rouse  objections once again over one’s right to wear the religious symbol in  public. 

    “We are fighting for two symbols all over the world — turban and  kirpan,” said Gurdev Gill, who witnessed the attack on Mangat. “They  have both been misused in front of everyone. Why would people listen to  us when we now say that it (kirpan) is ceremonial in nature ... not  meant to kill people?” 

    A steel blade anywhere from 2 to 8 inches long, the kirpan is  supposed to be worn by baptized Sikhs at all times, sheathed under their  clothes. But debates have raged across the country whether the wearing  of the dagger, seen by Sikhs as a symbolic weapon in the fight against  evil, compromises public security.

    The kirpan is banned in Denmark and France and there have been  several court cases in states of the U.S. involving the legality of  wearing the kirpan in public places. But it is allowed in most public  places in Canada, including at schools. There have been some incidents  in the past in the Toronto area where the kirpan was used in an assault,  but none as high-profile as the one on Friday in Brampton. 

    When Amanpreet Bal first heard about the scuffle and the stabbing,  he hoped that a kirpan hadn’t been used. Every time, the kirpan comes  back into the spotlight, “it means an uphill battle for us to educate  people about its spiritual significance,” said Bal of the World Sikh  Organization, an agency which has fought for Sikhs’ rights to wear the  kirpan.

    “Ignorant people have no idea what the impact of this (incident)  can be,” he said. “The community will see the impact of this incident  for years to come. It presents a tremendous challenge to the Sikhs.” 

     Controversy over the kirpan first burst onto the national scene in  2001 when Montrealer Gurbaj Singh Multani, then a 12-year-old student,  accidentally dropped his 8-inch ceremonial daggerat school. It  triggered a five-year-long dispute with the school board over his right  to wear the dagger. In 2006, the Supreme Court of Canada upheld his  right to wear it to school in a landmark judgment. 

    A debate erupted in Montreal again about 18 months ago when police  said a 13-year-old student had allegedly threatened two students with  his kirpan. In April 2009, a judge found him guilty of threatening them,  but with a hairpin used to secure a turban.

    The issue of the kirpan is a delicate one in the community. Sikhs  will voice their concern about its misuse but few will openly discuss  what can be done about it. Balraj Deol, editor of _Khabarnama_, a  weekly Punjabi newspaper published in Brampton, says it is time for the  clergy to examine the issue of how to make the kirpan safe. 

    “We have seen from time to time that people have used it as a  weapon and it’s very dangerous,” said Deol. 

    Its size is one issue, he said. “It’s a religious symbol. It can be  tiny,” not more than 2 inches long. He also points out that the kirpan —  a really small one — can be worn around the neck, which would address  security concerns. 

    Others have bounced the idea of locked kirpans — where they can’t  be unclasped. 

    Harnish Athwal, a 35-year-old mother of two young girls, says  Friday’s violence has convinced her that the ceremonial dagger must be  made safer. She was inside the temple when the scuffle broke out and was  one of the first people to reach Mangat, slumped on the ground. 

    “My kids saw it happen ... my 6-year-old daughter is still  traumatized,” said Athwal, who also witnessed the incident. “She can’t  understand why people would first yell and scream and then hurt someone  so bad.” 

    Meanwhile, Mangat is home from hospital, recuperating. “I thank God  that I am alive,” he said. One of the wounds, he added, is nearly 5  inches deep and next to the right kidney, others are on his legs and  thighs. 

    But Mangat, who also wears a kirpan, says this abuse of the dagger  should not be used against the religion. “These people have used  religious emotions and symbols to attack others. It does not mean all  Sikhs are violent.”

Attack renews Sikh dagger debate - thestar.com


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## roab1 (Apr 7, 2010)

I have seen Sikhs asking this question whenever the issue of kirpan is raised...

1. Has it ever been used as a weapon by Sikhs against anyone?

Thanks to these heroes this question will never be asked again.


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## manbir (Apr 7, 2010)

Surly time would come when we'll see Kirpan being banned by all civilized societies and countries. No amount of shouting and demonstrations and jakaras would be of any help.
Even young educated Sikhs themselves would start distancing themselves from those with Kirpans. And you wont believe me the time has come. Our young Sikhs have already started hating the elements among us who carry themselves as Big GurSikhs with their actions repulsive to civilized society.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 7, 2010)

roab1 said:


> I have seen Sikhs asking this question whenever the issue of kirpan is raised...
> 
> 1. Has it ever been used as a weapon by Sikhs against anyone?
> 
> Thanks to these heroes this question will never be asked again.



With all due respect, there is something very wrong here.  No one was attacked with a kirpan and no one ever will be.  In the very instance  that a kirpan is used as an aggressive weapon, it ceases to be a kirpan, an article of faith;  it is merely a knife or a dagger or a sword. And the person who wields it ceases to be a Gursikh and becomes a common criminal, a thug.  

I realse that this is a distinction that will be lost on the general public, but it must be made here, among us Sikhs.  I also realise I am leaving myself open to attack for bluntly stating this, but it is the truth and, I am certain, the opinion of the vast majority of Sikhs who are good, peaceable. law-biding citizens of the respective countries.

khandaa


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## singh.maninder (Apr 7, 2010)

It is a pity and shows the degree of our evolution in terms of sikhi and how well versed one is with the sikh philosophy, The act or even the thought of using the KIRPAN  degrades the stature of KIRPAN and turns KIRPAN into a ordinary piece of weapon which is not at all right. Attacking with a KIRPAN is not at all expectable.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 7, 2010)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> With all due respect, there is something very wrong here.  No one was attacked with a kirpan and no one ever will be.  In the very instance  that a kirpan is used as an aggressive weapon, it ceases to be a kirpan, an article of faith;  it is merely a knife or a dagger or a sword. And the person who wields it ceases to be a Gursikh and becomes a common criminal, a thug.
> 
> I realse that this is a distinction that will be lost on the general public, but it must be made here, among us Sikhs.  I also realise I am leaving myself open to attack for bluntly stating this, but it is the truth and, I am certain, the opinion of the vast majority of Sikhs who are good, peaceable. law-biding citizens of the respective countries.
> 
> khandaa



These people are quoting Guru Gobind Singh Ji and Guru hargobind Sahib jis Battles against the Mughals....how very wrong and off the mark...

The SIKH GURUS fought against Tyranny and Zulm of the RULING AUTHORITIES..the  Power Crazy warlords, the MOBS (called mulkhaiyah) thta came in the hundreds of thousands to rob, murder and kill. Those didnt come to PREACH..perform prayers..or otherwise engage in a PEACEFUL gathering as in the Canadian situation and also in an Indian Gurdwara ta Asansol. The Battle of BHANGGANI in which a MUSLIM PIR and his 4 sons and 700 murids fought against the MUGHALS was ON GURU JIS SIDE..while the HINDU KINGS were on the MUGHAL SIDE. Clealry a battle for JUSTICE and Fair Play...a far cry form the cowardly attack on a Fellow SIKH on the steps of a GURDWARA..a SIKH who has been on the FOREFRONT FIGHTING for the SIKH DASTAAR (and the other Kakaars by inference) in a Foreign Country. A SIKH who could be the "target" of an ENEMY of SIKHS but never a Fellow SIKH..but thats what happened..a SIKH used a KARRA and a KIRPAN to wound him/attempted murder !!

2. When I was  a teenager..the Very FIRST CHILD HERO declared in malaysia was a SIKH CHILD..who used his DASTAAR to save a drowning Malay Child who was being dragged away by a fast flowing river...In That case it can be said..WHEN is a  DASTAAR..not a Royal Headgear..but a ROPE.?? when its used to RESCUE a drowning man form  fast flowing river waters !!! The Picture of the Sikh Child standing Bare headed with his dastaar in hand..is a TRUE SIKH..while the SIKH Man standing on the Gurdawra Steps Bareheaded and bleeding ( from a karra attack on his face) is a SHAME on ALL SIKHS..and the SHAME is earned by his ATTACKER !! THIS SHAME STAIN will take a very very LONG time to be washed if ever...


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## jasi (Apr 7, 2010)

This is a sad day for all Canadian Sikhs.

Yes ! do not be surprised if Canada will ban the out right carryin on the Kirpan from now on, not only here but possible other countries will  follow the suits. 

Thanks to these uneducated people who has been destroying the basic principal of Guru Nanak Dev JI and our Gurus non -violence faith .
Even Guru Gobindh Singh Ji preached to us of the use of force in extreme situations for seld defence as  the last resort when all modes of readdressing the oppressor is exhausted.

But here these guys start using the Kirpan like a weapon ljust ike street GUNDAS with so short temper on small arguments.They have no intelligence to do any healthy dialogues but resort to violence within a seconds.


Such thier acts are blemshing the entire Sikh comminuity at large.


We all made our self as a mockery in Canada and world. We are also sending our children's the message that it is ok to take law in their own hands because we are brave Sikhs.

This is happening all over the world's Gurudwars by these short sited groups and local law enforcements are making note that Sikhs are very violent people.
　
OUR BRAVE MEN NEVER YIELD TO SUCH PETTY STUPID THINGS AS A ACT OF BRAVERY TO MAKE SHINE THEIR NAMES IN HISTORY.　
　
Gurudwars  represent us place of prayers . One day we will be afraid to go to Gurudwars because of these Pakhandies who are there to control every thing and using a public donations.

Uneducated priests blames the educated Sangat as number one threat to their security of controlling the Gurudwara.

Last remarks what I heard by some prisets was. "all problems are created by these educated people."

There is no return back to normalicy for these Gundas or uneducated self motivated people who already brought shame to one of the unique faith on this earth to bring our respect down by miss planing all their issues and used a plate form to brave to give or take any one's life for causes wh to resolve politcals issues ,Gurudwars isuues which could have handled  democratically in democratic country.We are not under aurenzebs oppressors. we are free nationals to use our voting rights to dismantle any governmenty we wish.

But politicians do not want to educate your right and power you have.

The Government loves this to see more division in the faith. there is used to be one Gurudwars for all cast and preaching now we have over 50 SADH with their own Deras so they can control on their own .

WAND KE SHAKNA OR BHAI SAHIB WORDS ARE BEING EVAPORATED EVERY MINUTE FROM OUR PREACHINGS.THE ONLY THING LEFT IS ONE HAS 1000 FOLLOWERS OR OTHER Have100000 FOLLOWERS.
　
There has been plenty of self made GURUS and SADHS has opend their DERAS to avoid violance or other reasons to become them self new Gurus
　
The concept of our one Guru Nanak Dev Ji is gone but these new Gurus have hold of many their own members under new names.Highest dscremination is being practices on based on cast or genders which was dismantled by our GURU NANAK DEV JI and cemented by GURU GOBIND SNGH JI by creating Khals by selecting from ower cast to make one cast that is human being with one single faith that there is only One God to worship..


Das pray to Akal Purkh to bless some wisdom to these elements to stay away from our Gurudwars which is a sole source for many underprivileged Sangats and stop damaging our reputations in the world.


Jaspi





roab1 said:


> _*The so called pendu mentality. Once again larger community will have to suffer because of 'heroic bravery' of few. Province of Quebec has already banned niqab and noone will shed a tear if Kirpan is next. *_
> 
> *Attack renews Sikh dagger debate* *Temple president stabbed with kirpan*
> 
> ...


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## prabhleen (Apr 7, 2010)

well....i just wanna say this eventually i'm a non-violental boy...but still...it's the matter for our guru ji and it must be say..that..

gur ki ninda suney na kaan...tis bhait karo naal kirpaan..

wjkk wjkf


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## balwant jakarta (Apr 7, 2010)

KIRPAN IS TO BE USED IN DEFENCE NOT ATTACK.IN DOING 'KIRPA' OR FAVOR WE USE KIRPAN.SIKHS SHOULD BE PRACTICING NIRMARTA AND NOT HAUMAI OR HANGKAR,AND KRODH.:veryhappymunda1:


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## Admin (Apr 7, 2010)

*"Gur Ki Ninda Suney Na Kaan Bhet Karo Tis Naal  Kirpan"


Gurfateh Prabhleen Ji,

A bit off-topic and my apologies but is this Tuk from Gurbani ie. from SGGS, our only Guru?

Regards
*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 7, 2010)

IN SGGS..Kanra Mh 5.."HATH ho ho KIRPAN....meaning compassion !! dyawaan..kirpa waan...

Again..Mh 5 Asa,,"mileyeah Gur-KIRPAAN..compassion..dya..kirpa..is the WAY to the GURU..

No such exhortation towards VIOLENCE occurs in SGGS..the only "violence" a Sikh should indulge in is against the FIVE DUSHTS within..Kaam krodh..lobh haknkaar moh...clearly the person responsible in the kirpan stabbing of a fellow SIKH and Punching him on the nose with hsi KARRA..has lost control of His KRODH...and has let his HANKAAR become SUPREME (in his beleif that he is above all LAW and decency civilised behaviour )..and thus acted in the manner he did...sad day for Sikhi/Gurmatt.

As a consequence of this RASH behaviour..millions of Kirpan wearing Sikhs world over will be once again under surveillance and criticism as violent , terrorists, trouble makers, etc etc...the "proof" is in the pudding...Even those "talking BIG before..are now running scared and advising..we all should "keep quiet"...let things cool down..blah blah..
Lets show the world we are mature people...SANTS and SIPAHIS....not street gangsters/mobs.


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## roab1 (Apr 7, 2010)

prabhleen said:


> well....i just wanna say this eventually i'm a non-violental boy...but still...it's the matter for our guru ji and it must be say..that..
> 
> gur ki ninda suney na kaan...tis bhait karo naal kirpaan..
> 
> wjkk wjkf



This is what i term pendu mentality which is prevalant in whole of India. There is a lot of difference in India and the developed world dude. In India it is very easy to break law kill murder and loot and still get away if you have the right connections. Law and its enforcement is a joke in India. But not here, esp canada. Crime rate is very low. There is almost Zero Tolerance against violence. Ofcource there is violence but it is limited to a very small scale. Why did they use Kirpan? or give people a chance to claim it was used? If it gets banned will all of your fellows 'Sikhs' leave Canada or part with it outside home?

These heroes wont be able to get with their bravery again, if they do they will be thrown out of Canada, even if they are citizens. And Darshan Singh has gone mainstream with his remarks calling DG 'obscene' which 'degrades women and promotes use of intoxicants'. Atlest a hundered thousand people read so called 'Guru ki Ninda', now you and the heroes cannot do anything except quoting quotes. 

People like you are guiding the actions of another stupid bunch in developed countries. You and your lot will do more damage than Darshan Singh you accuse. You will make sure that Sikhism in its pristine practised form will exist only in Punjab and states in India. Centuries ago Hindus shut their brains to outside world and lived in a nutshell which they called perfect. That limited their boundries. Are we next? Would a Sikh from Canada would be able to relate with Sikh from India after a century? 


By the way another article 

DiManno: Is this a dagger I see before me? - thestar.com


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## Bmandur (Apr 7, 2010)

Incident like last week Friday April2nd," would come when we'll see Kirpan being banned by all civilized societies and countries".
No amount of shouting and demonstrations and jakaras would be of any help. We being a Sikh worked very hard to get in this society to accept us what we are after 9-11 attacked we have seen how everyone looking at us but Now...
Even young educated Sikhs themselves would start distancing themselves from those with Kirpans.. 
We are educating the children’s what is Sikh & what is Khalsa through our Gurmat Crash courses here in Ontario, what we will say to our children's on our next Gurmat Crash Courses
Our young Sikhs have already started hating the elements among us who carry themselves as Big GurSikhs with their actions repulsive to civilized society.<?"urn:<img src=" />

Why can’t they sit together & talk it over why we have to use our Religious Symbol
Some time I wonder may be whoever is responsible for the incident, using a Kirpan to attack on others May be They want Kirpan to be banned?
Age 52!!! We have to see why!!! I am sorry to say but these are the facts came in to my mind
So sad & we should be ashamed of our self.
Gurfateh
Binder


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## spnadmin (Apr 7, 2010)

Bmandur ji

You hit a serious note as far as I am concerned. When I read the threads cheering the violence and organized action on various web sites I think I am reading the words of adolescents. Only to find out that we are talking about people of age 52 involved in this kind of thing. It is tragic.


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## Bmandur (Apr 7, 2010)

jaspi said:


> This is a sad day for all Canadian Sikhs.
> 
> Yes ! do not be surprised if Canada will ban the out right carryin on the Kirpan from now on, not only here but possible other countries will follow the suits.
> 
> ...


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## Bmandur (Apr 7, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Bmandur ji
> 
> You hit a serious note as far as I am concerned. When I read the threads cheering the violence and organized action on various web sites I think I am reading the words of adolescents. Only to find out that we are talking about people of age 52 involved in this kind of thing. It is tragic.


 
*Yes you are right age 52 and he did that. I am 54 but I will never do that to attack someone with my Kirpan NO way I was in Tears and I am in Tears*


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## seeker3k (Apr 7, 2010)

I have wrote here about so called Kirpan. It is 6" dagger not a kirpan as what Gobibd Singh gave us then. It is not needed in these time. Sho in the right mind can defend himself or others with 6" knife? It is a stupid ritual that lead us back to brahmanbad. They wear janeue and we wear gatra.

Go ahead make fool of your self. People are laffing and we dont hear them. What a pitty!!


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## arunjeev (Apr 7, 2010)

Dear friends,

The abuse of Kirpan a wholly religious symbol of  Sikhism for carrying out a murderous attack on an unarmed person is  heinous crime not against the law of the land but also against the Sikh  principles.

We should isolate such criminal elements in the community so that nobody  can take the shelter of a Sikh dress.

I know such elements had  always been making their presence felt in the community, that's why it  is the need of the hour to recognize such elements and throw them out of the  fold.

Kind regards

Arunjeev Singh
Barrister
New  Zealand


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## gscheema (Apr 7, 2010)

kirpan is for self defence.but now a days it has become mode of attacking others.According to me this is all due to people who wear kirpan but dont follow basic principles of sikkhism.For them it is just a weapon they dont have any respect for this beautiful gift of our GURU.So khalsa ji make yourself khalis not from outside but also from inside than you will not do these stupid things.:khanda3:


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## Gurmit Singh (Apr 8, 2010)

Since  local Police has been investigating this incident, witnesses should  come
 forward and share  the evidence against the culprits. Stern action should  be
 taken  against such hooligans. At the same time, the Sikh Diaspora  should
 not be  cowed down by the agents of Pujaris such as Taksaalis, AkJ,  Babbars,
 SSF,  Nihangs and the like. Their Names and Addresses should be reported to  
 the  respective Police Stations so that they keep en eye on their  treacherous activities.

Thanks,


 Gurmit  Singh (Australia)


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 8, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> These people are quoting Guru Gobind Singh Ji and Guru hargobind Sahib jis Battles against the Mughals....how very wrong and off the mark...
> 
> ...


Jarnail Singh ji, 
Its not totally off the mark. Although I agree that the two situations are very different, there is one similarity.
In the simplest of words:
The battles between the Gurus and Mughals are perceived as Good vs Evil. So all one needs to do is convince themselves (which is easily done) that they are on the good side, and their target is evil. Now that they are on the good side, the sword can be drawn an voila you get an attack on the EVIL Bramptonian!

The reasoning (and believe me it does take thought) that it takes to go from *reality* to good vs evil needs to be firstly *identified*, *analyzed *then *heavily criticized*. 
I believe that this reasoning maybe linked to the idea of obtaining martyrdom.


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## mukul singh (Apr 8, 2010)

Sat Shri Akal Sat Sangat Ji,

I would like to highlight one thing which has always been a issue.

Sikhs are the most technical people found on the planet but still going to countries other than india, we are always been seen as third guys because of this voilence acts, it is truly said that nobody can doubt our intelligence & hard working.

But voilence & gunda behaviors with swords or kirpan brings our respect down in other countries. As we all know crime reports sells the best in all countries.

We may do something good will not be published, but yes some crime will definately do and beacuse of few whole community has to suffer.

_I believe _it should be banned for the sake of respect of our gurus, we are not in a war now & do not require to hurt anybody.

Gursikh 
Mukul Singh


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## Rupinder.Singh (Apr 8, 2010)

These type of incidents raise many questions:

foremost is: 

Q: Are sikhs trustworthy when they say that dagger is a symbol of faith and is never used to attack?

Now answer to above question, depends upon what we practice in our life, be it attacking someone with dagger or something else. you decide it yourself.

And there is only one difference between a true Sikh and a namely sikh.. a true sikh practises Guru's teachings and other dont.

Second one is:

Q: How many times do we educate our community about the sensitivity of carrying dagger in public in western worlds.

In my life time, I have never experienced anyone in Gurudwara telling sangat about the senstivity of this issue and responisibility towards carrying a dagger in public.




In the end:

There is only one way to survive in a civilised society, and that is by being civilised and handling issues in an educated and smart way.

Why were Sikhs respected in past:

Because they practised Sikhism in thier lives, they lived thier life according to Guru's teachings and it was prevalent in all thier actions.


And above all:

Education and awareness is the only path forward towards civilized Society. A society which was visualised by our Gurus.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 8, 2010)

and these idiots are also talking about...scissors..bricks..kitchen knives..etc etc as "objects that can KILL"..and so will these too be "banned" ?? What a stupid analogy..so stupid that there are no words to describe it...
Do people carry kitchen knives..bricks..scissors etc on their persons all the time as a KIRPAN is carried by Sikhs ??  so now by bringing in these common objects..they hope to hsow that a possible ban on the Kirpan is not feasible...and even IF IT is..then its PROF Darshan Singhs Fault..Lawyer Manjit Singhs fault..Sikh Lehr Gurdwara managements fault..just about EVERYBODYS FAULT..except their own !!! Such stupidity is being shown on their Forums.....
SIKHS have fought so hard and LONG..to get the Panj kaars ACCEPTED...and the KIRPAN is among the most difficult for others to "accept"..yet we succeeded...and NOW THIS !! Whats More..even the HUGE KARRAS these peole wear are under the scanner..as a Karra was also used to smash the Face of Manjit Singh !! ( I am sure then these guys will say..what about KNUCKLE DUSTERS then ?? Dont people use KD to hurt others...??


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## mukul singh (Apr 8, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> and these idiots are also talking about...scissors..bricks..kitchen knives..etc etc as "objects that can KILL"..and so will these too be "banned" ?? What a stupid analogy..so stupid that there are no words to describe it...
> Do people carry kitchen knives..bricks..scissors etc on their persons all the time as a KIRPAN is carried by Sikhs ?? so now by bringing in these common objects..they hope to hsow that a possible ban on the Kirpan is not feasible...and even IF IT is..then its PROF Darshan Singhs Fault..Lawyer Manjit Singhs fault..Sikh Lehr Gurdwara managements fault..just about EVERYBODYS FAULT..except their own !!! Such stupidity is being shown on their Forums.....
> SIKHS have fought so hard and LONG..to get the Panj kaars ACCEPTED...and the KIRPAN is among the most difficult for others to "accept"..yet we succeeded...and NOW THIS !! Whats More..even the HUGE KARRAS these peole wear are under the scanner..as a Karra was also used to smash the Face of Manjit Singh !! ( I am sure then these guys will say..what about KNUCKLE DUSTERS then ?? Dont people use KD to hurt others...??




Gyani Jarnail Singh

I understand your feelings on this & you are right as well
and am equally angry but the question here is stop the voilence & misuse or stop keeping it,cause it is becoming a local threat to other people.

What has happened to Manjit Singh is a true shame but the highlight for everybody bring this question again & again.

It was a right decision in the past, but in present there is no war going on, the Kirpan is the simbolic asset we have which can be placed at home.

Have you ever seen a sikh getting angry in the middle of the road & uncovered Kirpan(I have seen it),school kids do this often.
Is this a respect to our asset where no one of them is making an self-defence but being aggressiveness.

What will happen if someone is killed by a sikh, both killed & killer will gonna pay for this, along with their innocent families & bad part is that this is happening.

If not banned as you say we might be over reacting  & you are right also, can there be someway to educate them. 

May be Gurudwara <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CADMINI%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!--  /* Style Definitions */  p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal 	{mso-style-parent:""; 	margin:0in; 	margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:12.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 	{size:8.5in 11.0in; 	margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; 	mso-header-margin:.5in; 	mso-footer-margin:.5in; 	mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 	{page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0in; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:10.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-ansi-language:#0400; 	mso-fareast-language:#0400; 	mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->committee must bring some educational program to prevent all this.

If i hurt you sentiments i apologies.

Guru da sikh 
Mukul Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 8, 2010)

The real truth is that there is not a single incident from Guritihas..where the Guru sahibs or their Sikhs took up arms and hurt their "opponents" who were not in agrement with their religious beleifs...
1. Did Guru Angad's sikhs hurt any of those who opposed Guru Ji's gurgadee by Guru nanak Ji ?
2. Did Guru Amardass Jis sikhs ever hurt any of Guru Angad's family who didnt agree with Guru ji ?
3. Was Bhai Dasu, Bhai datu ji etc beaten..stabbed..chased away becasue they didnt agree with Guru amardass Jis Guruship ?..
4. Was Prithiyah..dhirmalls minas etc etc ever attacked by Sikhs..ever Guru hargobind Ji take up arms against them ??
5. Was RamRai beaten..stabbed..whatever...
6. Baba Vadbhag singhs followers fired on Guru Teg bahadur Ji....he was fired back on..and ran away to the hills !! Yet TODAY baba Vadbhag singhs dera of Bhoot Prets and manmatt is one fo the biggest deras in Punjab..No SIKHS go there to chastise them..stop the manmatt..in fact this dera is legitimised by the present sgpc set up for VOTES..

Gurus took up ARMS aginst ARMED ATTACKERS..not ORDINARY PEOPLE...even when these people didnt agree with them...The GURUS didnt attack a single Hindu King...or kingdom..even when these attacked Guru ji..the battle was fought on the Battlefield..not in RELIGIOUS PLACES. Guur Ji fought not to destroy Mandirs or Mosques..or desecrate mandirs or mosques...even though they didnt agree with them..they fought only TYRANNY and ZULM..regardeless of who/what religion.

SIKHS share the same GURU..why they fight among themsleves ?? why they brign shame on their religion ?? Always..when Logic fails..brute force is resorted to.like the case in Miri Piri gurdwara, asansol gurdwara..southhall london..and Toronto...sad times are ahead if it continues becasue neither side is going to be intimidated by the other..only solution is talk it out.


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## manbir (Apr 8, 2010)

One thing I have failed to understand is why we call Kirpan as "symbol of faith". And another thing, is a small 4" or 6" can be called a Kirpan. I remember more than 40 yrs back I attended a Gurmat Camp. We were given a topic to debate on - " The Size of Kirpan " What size can be called a Kirpan. Can a small 2" worn in neck or 4-6" in gatra can be called a Kirpan? After presentation of all logic everyone came to a conclusion that a Kirpan is a weapon. And any size that cannot be used as a weapon cannot be called a Kirpan. This camp was attended by many famous personalities of Sikhs some of them are still living. 
Today Sikhs especially in the western countries have officially declared Kirpan as a "Symbol of faith". In that particular camp most of the young asked one question - " Are we believers of Symbols ?"
I feel this question would come up again and we may be confronted with same question and we have to give a straight answer. 
I have seen many times small Amritdharee kids taking out their Kirpan during fights with their friends ! 
What is the solution to all this? The Answer my be uncomfortable !


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 8, 2010)

There was a KIRPAN MORCHA launched during the Akali Morchas of the GURDWARA SUDHAAR MOVEMENT in the 1920s...in which the SIKHS achieved VICTORY over the British Govt and the SGPC/Shaiormani Akali Dal were Formed. The KIRPAAN MORCHA was about..NOT LIMITING THE SIZE of the KIRPAN..and the BRITISH GOVT LOST that Morcha as well and the SIZE LIMIT on the KIRPAN was LIFTED. The KIRPAN has to be 3 ft long at the shortest. The SIKH Leaders who led this Morcha were conferred the KIRPAN BAHADUR AWARD.

Later the SIKH leadership, quietly gave way..and introduced the..small nine inch "chhotee kirpan..and then the 6 inch..then the 2 inch..and then the 2mm kirpan nailed on to the KANGHA !! THIS quiet and backdoor SUBJUGATION of the SIKH KAUM has continued..TODAY the SIKHS have LOST everything...their KESRI and BLUE COLOURS have changed to the OCHRE GLARING ORANGE of the Hindus..the BLUE on Nishan Sahibs has totally vanished except from NIHUNG Gurdwaras...everything is ORANGISH..the REHIT has become a RITUAL...Gurbani is SOLD openly by all and sundry...etc etc.. Its not athkathnee to say Sikhs are mere SYMBOLS...just outward show..no inside spirituality at all...just I am better than YOU !! One upmanship is the order of the day...


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## manbir (Apr 8, 2010)

Yes that Gurmat Camp was primarily for men. 
My view is if we make Kirpan just a Symbol, we surly are heading for trouble. We can't sustain it logically. Lets ask ourselves do we need symbol to sustain Sikhism? We have to decide everything logically as per Gurbani. Just because we started making our maryadas illogically without the touchstone of Sri Guru Granth Sahib our young ones are discarding sikhi.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 8, 2010)

If I had not had a sharp kirpan in Delhi, you would not be reading my silly posts these days because I would have achieved shaheedi and would be at my Guru's feet today.  :carefreekaur:

And my son's murderer would be alive, running around, free to brag about the Sikhs he killed that day in November. 

I do not believe children should carry sharp kirpans.  Their brains are not fully formed and they CANNOT have real understanding of consequences.  As I understand it, the frontal cortex is not fully formed until adulthood.

I believe that adult Amritdharis should carry sharp kirpans, if they feel they have the capacity to act rationally.  We need to be able to protect ourselves and others;  that is part of what a Sikh does.  I also believe we and our children should study gatka so we can defend ourselves unarmed. 

It should be legal for Amritdhari Sikhs to carry a sharp kirpan.  I also believe that any Sikh, Amritdhari or not who uses a kirpan or any other weapon in a way that is illegal should be tried in a court of law as would anyone else committing the same act.

Now I'm tired...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 8, 2010)

YES..SIKHS have to decide what a KIRPAN IS?
1. its a WEAPON (albeit to be used in self-defence/as a last resort )....IN GURU JIs time it was a WEAPON..clearly used in Battle and for self defence...not just show off.
2. Its a SYMBOL...(religiously mandated)

IF its a weapon..it has to be SHARP..it has to be at least 3 ft long and well crafted to be really useful in self defence....and THEN this "weapon" will have to run the gauntlet of various LAWS of Various countries..

IF its a Religious SYMBOL..then it can be 2mm or 2inches..or 6 inches or 9 inches.BUT BLUNT/capped permanently/soldered shut..whatever..isnce its just  a SYMBOL to be worn for SYMBOLIC purposes.

Clearly we cant have it BOTH ways...keep calling it a symbol ( to obtain approval to carry it on our persons 24/7 ).... and then taking it out to stab people...(offensive weapon)


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 8, 2010)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> YES..SIKHS have to decide what a KIRPAN IS?
> 1. its a WEAPON (albeit to be used in self-defence/as a last resort )....IN GURU JIs time it was a WEAPON..clearly used in Battle and for self defence...not just show off.
> 2. Its a SYMBOL...(religiously mandated)
> 
> ...



I cannot imagine wearing a sword-length kirpan as I go about my everyday buisiness, not to mention while bathing and sleeping.  My kirpan has a razor sharp 6.5 inch blade, (about the size of a small Bowie knife) which I have found adequate for self-protection.  The one I had in Delhi was actually a war dagger that had been used by an ancestress of mine in the Hundred Years War (1337-1453) that was restored by a master swordmaker, slightly reshaping the blade into a kirpan shape about 5 inches long.  It was of a size to get the necessary job done.  If we had had more sharp kirpans in Delhi, I believe the history of the pogrom would be quite different, whatever the length of the blade.

Of course, there must be a couple of qualifications to carrying such a noble blade, whether knife or kirpan.  The bearer must have sufficient self-control to use it only when truly necessary, never in anger, always in defence of oneself or someone else.  Also, the bearer must be educated in the use of it as a weapon.  Otherwise, in a fight, it would be more a liability than an asset.

Such a kirpan is a true kirpan, both defensive weapon and article of faith.


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## roab1 (Apr 8, 2010)

What was the hundered years war ( 1337-1453 ) ?


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 8, 2010)

roab1 said:


> What was the hundered years war ( 1337-1453 ) ?



A series of wars between France and England that just kept going on and on and on...  If you have heard of Joan of Arc (Jeanne d'Arc, patron saint of France) that was her war.   It was basically for dominance of western Europe.  Who won depends on who you read.  England was driven off the continent to the isle of Great Britain, but France was devastated because all most all the fighting was there.  A fairly good summary in Wikipedia.  Hundred Years' War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My ancestors on my mother's side were there, French, of course, including the woman that I get my French name, Helene-Therese, from.


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## Sinister (Apr 9, 2010)

roab1 said:


> What was the hundered years war ( 1337-1453 ) ?


 
The hundred-year war was the war that gave rise to Europe’s technological achievements. These wars between feudal city-states would go on to develop the tools of war, strategies, institutions and social policies that would eventually be used to conquer the sikh empire 300 years or so later to exploit its populace for land and resources.
<?"urn:<img src=" />
Kinda funny and sad, how all weapons are connected…with the help of human ingenuity they gravitate towards one another.

ping


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 9, 2010)

Sinister said:


> The hundred-year war was the war that gave rise to Europe’s technological achievements. These wars between feudal city-states would go on to develop the tools of war, strategies, institutions and social policies that would eventually be used to conquer the sikh empire 300 years or so later to exploit its populace for land and resources.
> 
> Kinda funny and sad, how all weapons are connected…with the help of human ingenuity they gravitate towards one another.
> 
> ping



True and my description is a lot more fun and colourful.

It's a really strange connection between my two families that I'd never have thought about.  I guess it's sort of that Six Degrees of Separation thing.  Amazing how everything  is so intricately intertwined.

Now, how to work in my Inuit great-great-grandmother?:blinkingkudi:


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## jasi (Apr 9, 2010)

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa, Wahe   ji ki fateh

I request  humbly to Prabhleen ji where did read these lines said by Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

(gur ki ninda suney na kaan...tis bhait karo naal kirpaan..)

Under no circumstances there is any violent SHABAD used by Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Jaspi






prabhleen said:


> well....i just wanna say this eventually i'm a non-violental boy...but still...it's the matter for our guru ji and it must be say..that..
> 
> gur ki ninda suney na kaan...tis bhait karo naal kirpaan..
> 
> wjkk wjkf


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## GURSIKHNAM (Apr 10, 2010)

SAT-SRI-AKAL 
It is sad to note that THE KIRPAN has become a symbol of debate among SIKHS.  Just curious, do these SIKHS in Canada not have a SINGH behind their name, because on numerous articles that I have read, their names do not end with SINGH, forgive me no offense meant to anybody.  Coming back to the issue of THE KIRPAN, it is not just a religious symbol but has a purpose,  that a SIKH  be everyready to defend, his faith, his family and to fight oppression in this age of KALYUG but not to attack innocent defenseless persons or use it for the purpose of getting stratification of hurting another human brother or sister out of anger.  There must definitely be a valid reason as to why the TRUE KHALSA has been compelled to use these 5 Ks.  If we raise too may questions and start debating on issues like this, are we in the position to come to a rightful conclusion?  However, whatever the reason,  the use of KIRPAN to hurt others is wrong and a barbaric act of uncivilized persons and must be condemned by all SIKHS. These persons should be charged according to the laws of the residing country.  The deeds of a few irresponsible persons should not be construed  as that of the whole SIKH community.  WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH,


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## jasi (Apr 11, 2010)

Wahe Guru ji ka Khalsa Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh.

To sum up all what  has been on rise to these  happenings causing century old faith and universally recognized of it as a non-violence relegion with full of Nimrata and Bhai Charis.

Because these literate and short sighted preachers failed tto preach to control 5 major issue preached  by our GURUS before  being baptized are:

 KAM, KRODH, HANKAR, LOBH, GREEDby 

Heroism is totally different aspect of Sikhism  which is engraved in Sikh history to defend themselve with sword against tyrants and aggressors to against the humanity  but not for small disagreements in Guru Dwaras to take out sword especially by baptized Sikhs.

That is why our Sikhs should not bring the people to Amrit Shakana when they are not ready to accept the rules and philosophy behind  of NIMRATA and understand Amrit Shakana .  It does not change any one to be a warier unless fully understand to Gurus teaching and defend against injustices or extreme threat to one's life.

Imagine in the history of Canada and world there is hardly any incident like what happened in Toronto. R There are daily incidents are being recorded for large and small scuffles in all Guru Dwaras.WHY ? Public at large  especially our young generations are loosing their faiths to look at the Guru Dwaras  as power hungry people.Ther are scraed to go to Gurudwars to get caught in any of these scuffles where Kirapna can used as a weapon .

It seems that we must realize soon where such incident of violence is recorded all our in main stream of Sikh organizations in center of Punjab where Violante is preached to solve local problem with hate and aggressive attitude than using the most power full tools "votes" to solve their problems by casting vote to the right person who can defend their 
grievances.

We still can improve a lot from our Gurus teaching than accepting  evolution of today's world.

Let Guru Dwaras be a prayer places where every one can go with Sharda to hear Guru's Gurbani and Cherish one's life.

Jaspi




roab1 said:


> _*The so called pendu mentality. Once again larger community will have to suffer because of 'heroic bravery' of few. Province of Quebec has already banned niqab and noone will shed a tear if Kirpan is next.
> *_ *
> Attack renews Sikh dagger debate* *Temple president stabbed  with kirpan*
> 
> ...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 11, 2010)

The trouble with every tom and harry reading so much "KACHI BANI" is apparent..people begin to think that all such "rhyming poetry" must be GURBANI form SGGS....

Famous tuks NOT GURBANI..
1. Naam khumaree nanaka charree rehah din raat...
2. Guru ki ninda sunneh na kaan..bhet kirpann...
and Many many MORE are being popularised by sants like dhadrianwallah etc who LOVE kachi bani but never do kirtan of GURBANI.


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## roab1 (Apr 11, 2010)

Where is naam khumari.... from?


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## spnadmin (Apr 11, 2010)

roab1 said:


> Where is naam khumari.... from?




roab ji

Not by a stretch am I answering your question. Gyani ji knows the answer, not I. But I do want to add a tiny bit of info that is related to your question.

Many of the tuks that are floated about as if they are from SGGS actually are part of the beej of Sant Kabir and are popular with Kaibr panthees. These would be tuks from shabads  that were not included in SGGs by Guru Arjan Dev ji. 

Just a factoid. That's all.


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## roab1 (Apr 11, 2010)

I read that the tuk

waho waho gobind singh ape gur chela.....

is also spurious. Infact in the very next line or before it it shows Guruji as worshipper of Durga. But most know only the two lines and continue with _kachi bani_.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 12, 2010)

roab1 said:


> I read that the tuk
> 
> waho waho gobind singh ape gur chela.....
> 
> is also spurious. Infact in the very next line or before it it shows Guruji as worshipper of Durga. But most know only the two lines and continue with _kachi bani_.




THAT ENTIRE VAAR..is SPURIOUS !!

1. First the "author" is *ANONYMOUS*...BUT vested interests spuriously "added" this Vaar as the 40th Vaar to the POTHI of Bhai Gurdass Vaars. 

39 Vaars are written by Bhai Gurdass and are about Guru nanak Ji's period to Guru hargobind Jis period. Bhai Gurdass ji passed away in Guru Hargobind Jis time.

It shows just how serious SIKHS are about what they sing/do kirtan/ etc regard as authentic....when we SEE that this SPURIOUS ADDITION..chock full of UTTER RUBBISH/DEVI worship/RABID ANTI-MUSLIM fanaticism/WRONG HISTORY/FALSE CLAIMS.FAKE "facts" and claims etc etc..and on top of it being so OBVIOUSLY A TOTAL 100% FAKE simply becasue this 40th Vaar is about GURU GOBIND SINGH JI/Period and the Bhai GURDASS who wrote the ORIGINAL Bhai Gurdass deean vaaran was the Mama of GURU ARJUN JI and lived 100++ Years BEFORE Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This Original Bhai gurdass penned the SGGS Ji which was dictated by Guru Arjun ji...

EVEN when this Fake was discovered...what did SIKHS do ?? They went running helter skelter like "headless chickens" trying to JUSTIFY this *Intellectual DISHONESTY*...some began to say..OH this ANONYMOUS writer *must* be...BHAI GURDASS..... *SINGH* !!! simply becasue of the PERIOD of the Fake Vaar !!! Since its clearly NOT the Original Bhai gurdass..he has to be Gurdass *SINGH* !! with absolutley no proof whatsoever..Ragis and Parcharaks began to tell this fairy tale of Bhai Gurdass SINGH !! No body even dared mention as to WHY this anonymous vaar was added to the POTHI of Bhai Gurdass Ji ?? ( and to make this even more "sincere/truthful..they would then bring in other respected names like Bhai Nand Lall, Bhai Khnaiyah etc etc.. and say..he must have chhak amrit and become Nand Laal *SINGH*...Bhia Khaniya *SINGH*....and so this is vaar by *Bhai Gurdass SINGH* !!! see how ridiculous we can become when we want to STRETCH the LIE to transform it into a "truth" ????..Thats is instead of making attempts to find out the TRUTH..we decided its better  to Beat around the Bush and raise some DUST CLOUD to cover it all up !! 

*Simplest question was..WHY didnt the AUTHOR write his Name on his Vaar..as Bhai Gurdass SINGH ?? WHY did he ATTACH his vaar ANONYMOUSLY to the 39 vaars of Bhai Gurdass ???*

I asked one Ragi..what proof is there that Bahi Nand lal became SINGH.or Bhai Khnaiya ji became a SINGH..he replied IF Bhai Gurdass can become SINGH..why not ??   But wheres the proof ?? what proof ?? he asked me..I wasnt there !!  its just NATURAL..they must have all taken Pahul..it has to be....

Reminded me of what the Catholic Priest told me in Kindergarten class...Children..who can tell us..How do we KNOW that Bible is word of GOD...JESUS TELLS US..shouted the clever ones.. AND..How do we KNOW that JESUS is SON of GOD....THE BIBLE TELLS US....came the combined shout....YES thats right said the Father...  YES......FAKES and dishonest people exist in all religions...even in Sikhism !!

What would the world say......IF a FAKE PLAY about ...Maharaja Ranjit Singh.... were found attached to a Copy of Shakespeares Plays ?? Would the world begin saying..OH..this new play must be by Shakespeare the SECOND !!..maybe Shakespeare SINGH !!! because by that time there were SINGHS in the UK ??....or maybe Shakespeare converted to Sikhism ?? Proof ??  what proof..I wasnt there..were YOU ?? Its definitley Shakespeare SINGH..and King Lear SINGH..and Shylock SINGH to boot !!

BTW..READ the ENTIRE VAAR..and judge for yourself....Just ONE tiny juicy snippet of "facts"...to whet your appetite for this WHOLESALE LIE !!!

1. Guru Gobind Singh/ and His KHALSA.....went on a Rampage and  
    DESTROYED MOSQUES and Banned the AZAN..stopped the 
    Circumcision...etc etc...

an English translation is available on internet sites.


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## spnadmin (Apr 12, 2010)

Gyani ji

I knew you would know. This is probably the 3rd post/analysis you have written of some length and detail on the 40th vaar wrongly attributed to Bhai Gurdas ji. Please let us put all of them together and create a serious article on the topic for posterity.

Most of the time you have me smiling in spite of the serious nature of this material. I think such an article would make others smile a little, as they realized that scams have to be discovered sooner or later. It is destined.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 13, 2010)

Naraayan Ji...with your input/scholarly additions..that article would indeed be a gem in SPN's collection....Please carry on !!


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## spnadmin (Apr 13, 2010)

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! I will be glad to integrate the articles but you have to do final touches. The scholarship already done by you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 13, 2010)

Narayan Ji..you are too modest..as ususal. THANK YOU.
You know..the real reason all those "pathetic sites" which hurl abuses...really do that to hide their frustration that you are not "with them"....how they wish ??? Btw the "complete bald shaved head of their greatest DG Scholar doesnt seem to bother them that much..why ?? simply becasue he is PRO-DG..so he can even leave his scalp at home..its still OK....but not someone like you whose hair is  a wee bit shorter than theirs..ha ha ha
DO THE GURUS WORK..in Chardeekalla always..its the best reward we can get .:thumbsupp:


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## spnadmin (Apr 13, 2010)

:blushhh:

Thanks .... me not all that. But on the subject of hair, LOL, , I am not joking when I say I really do look like this , but leave the other picture up on various web sites in order to irritate particular individual who has been kind of quiet lately. Better let sleeping dogs sleep as they say.


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