# A Discussion Of McLeod And The Kartarpur Bir Controversy: A Second Look



## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 30, 2009)

*Re: Sabd Guru on Sword (ਖੜਗੁ/ਖੰਡਾ)*

Dear Tony Ji,

The Sikh scholars have a fear of their job or being excummunicated from the faith by SGPC-so they get scared in coldly disssecting the questions being raised.

Two years ago I visited a friend in Halifax, England where he requested me to speak. There I met a Giani Ji who wrote me the whole poem of Bhagat Surdas;

“Cwf mn hir ibmuKn ko sMg”
_Chaad mun Har bemukhan ko sung._​ 

                                                                    It means_, “O ‘my mind, get rid of the company of non-believers of God.”_

I just can't put my hands on it. Guru Arjan took only that line and responds to it. It is not one line as a complete poem of his.

The riddle I posted was delt by Professor Pashara Singh, being a friend of mine did not coldlt dissect it;

*GURU ARJAN'S RAMAKALI HYMN (Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 927)*

*Dr. Pashaura Singh*

One of the main issues that have drawn scholarly attention in Kartarpur-Banno debate is related to a hymn by Guru Arjan in Ramkali mode. A single couplet stands recorded in the version of the Adi Granth after chhant 4, before Guru Composition on the six seasons (ਰੁਤੀ) of the Indian calendar. 1n order to address the incomplete nature of this hymn, W.H. McLeod argues that there should apparently be a complete hymn in section assigned to the longer chhant compositions. The organization of hymns in this section indicates that the couplet must be either the first two lines of a chhant, or a Sloke introducing a chhanD. The academic issue raised by McLeod drew a great many polemic responses from Sikh scholars, which generated more heat than light on the Kartarpur-Banno debate.124
It is important to note that only two lines of this hymn are to note that two lines of this hymn are to be found in the manuscripts of both the Kartarpur and the Lahore traditions.125 Even in the Kanpur manuscript (1642), which claimed to be the first copy of the Adi Bir prepared by Bhai Banno (and hence popularly known as Banno Bir), the additional twenty two lines of the hymn were added later in a smaller hand.126

One can argue that the scribe had originally written a single couplet since the remainder of the hymn was not available at that time. When ¬additional portion became available, he completed the hymn in Banno version of the Adi Granth. This explanation may be supported by the scribal practice of writing the opening verse first completing the text later. But this simple explanation does not solve the textual puzzle. I shall argue that the completion of this hymn page 115 was intentionally done at a time when the volume was converted into the Banno text.

In order to understand the problem of the Banno recension, we must examine Guru Arjan's Ramkali hymn in its original context. In folio 703/1 of the Kartarpur' manuscript the two lines read as follows:
Raga Ramkali Mahala 5

ਰਣ ਝੁੰਝਨੜਾ ਗਾਉ ਸਖੀ ਹਰਿ ਏਕੁ ਧਿਆਵਹੁ ॥ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਤੁਮ ਸੇਵਿ ਸਖੀ ਮਨਿ ਚਿੰਦਿਅੜਾ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਵਹੁ ॥ 

_Raṇ jẖunjẖnaṛā gā&shy;o sakẖī har ėk ḏẖi&shy;āvahu. Saṯgur ṯum sėv sakẖī man cẖinḏi&shy;aṛā fal pāvhu._ 

Sing the melodious harmonies, O my companions, and meditate on the One Lord. Serve your True Guru, O my companions, and you shall obtain the fruits of your mind's desires. 

Sing the trilling tunes in the [dance]-field, my sister-friends, by meditating on the one lord. By serving the true Guru, my sister-friends, accomplish your heart's desires.

The opening words, ran jẖunjẖnaṛā (trilling tunes [sung in the dance]-field), indicate a wedding scene at which Punjabi girls were accustomed to gather together in a circle to sing wedding songs. Guru Arjan may have uttered these aphoristic sayings on the happy occasion of a marriage, intending that these be developed into a complete hymn later. As the opportunity for its completion never came, only two lines, followed by a blank space, stand recorded in the Kartarpur manuscript. Because there is no mention of this hymn in the index of this volume, and because the entry of the couplet (though made by the same scribe) was done with a different pen, we may conclude that the couplet was introduced some time after the compilation of the Adi Granth in 1604 and before Guru Arjan's death in 1606. This is also confirmed by the fact that this couplet (or complete hymn) is not to be found in an earlier Sikh scriptural tradition, popularly known as MS 1245 preserved at the Guru Nanak Dev University library. 127.

The complete hymn, along with the additional lines, is to be found in the Banno version of the Adi Granth. It reads as follows:
Page 116,

The lord Says Nanak, the journey [of life] has borne fruit through contemplation of the person of the true Guru. (1) By collecting the nectar like food the whole family was called [into the Guru's presence) - Let immortal divine Name be distributed (ਵੰਡਿਆਹੁ) to all so that every one is completely satisfied. The true Guru made the distribution [of the divine name] to everyone while sitting [on the throne] and all were blessed with the gift of love. Everyone received a share (ਵੰਡਿ) according to his destiny, and no one went empty-handed [from the house of the Guru]. The whole Sikh Sangat gathered together [in the Guru's presence] and each person was absorbed in great joy. Says Nanak, 'by seeking the lord's protection I have attained all comforts: (2) all the rites (riti) were performed by meditating deeply on the lord. The tonsure ceremony (bhaddanu unet) was conducted by repeating the divine knowledge of the Guru. Repeating the Guru’s knowledge provided all comforts, and thus the boy was sent to school. The child received a perfect education by obeying the lord in his heart. All were feasted (Uevanavaru) lavishly at the time of the name-giving ceremony [of the child], and no one went away empty-handed. Nanak the humble servant of God pleads: 'My lord is [my] friend at death (3). The saintly people who gathered together [in the Guru's presence] sum that the boy should now be betrothed (mangeva) by good fortune. Those of rectitude and wisdom were found as parents of the bride. Let the gift of Amrit (divine name) be distributed among all. The mystical state of union with the immortal name was attained when the Guru established the divine knowledge (in the man) and removed all kinds of suffering. The auspicious moment, which was written [by destiny] from the very beginning.. (And the marriage was affirmed by the parents of the bride. The lord arranged the marriage-party in such a way that all kinds of sages, devotees and godly men participated in it. Says Nanak, the task of [marriage] was accomplished and the unstruck music sounded forth. (4) 128

Evidently, the hymn describes the rituals in the life-cycle of individual in Punjabi society in the seventeenth century which included the birth of a male child, the name-giving ceremony, and the puberty rite, the first admission in a school, the betrothal rite and the marriage ceremony. A further symbolic meaning gets attached to these rituals since they are used as occasions for the distribution of the gift of Amrit (the divine name) among the devotees of the Guru.
The real issue, however, is related to the authorship of the Banno hymn. Did Guru Arjan compose the Ramkali hymn? If he did do so, who else could have been responsible for completing hymn, and why? To find answers to these questions, we must examine117 the poetic style of this hymn and other linguistic features with reference to other works of Guru Arjan. This method of enquiry reveals the following significant points.

The fourth line in the first stanza (sat guru sachai bheji dia char jivan vaddu pu_nnia, the true Guru has sent the long-lived child to enjoy great fortune) alludes to the opening lines of Guru Arjan's hymn in Asa raga, which he composed to celebrate the birth of his only child, Har Gobind, the sixth Guru: The true Guru has sent the child. The long lived child has been born by destiny (sat guru sachai dia bheji// chir jivan upajia sanjogi).129 This allusion has been largely responsible for the assumption that the Banno hymn concerns the life-cycle rituals relating to Guru HarGobind's early life. For instance, G.B. Singh's manuscript note on the copy of a Banno recension in the India Office Library reads: 'the hymn (chhant) about the early life of the sixth Guru is given complete[ly] (24 lines); and not only The first two lines. 130 It is important to note, however, that apart from this indirect association, there is no explicit reference to the sixth Guru in the text itself. Rather, the author of the Banno hymn employs the metaphor of a unique son (anup balak) as a poetic convention to describe the life-cycle rituals of Punjabi society in general. 131
Secondly, there are certain linguistic expressions in the hymn which cannot be the work of Guru Arjan. For instance, for him to have used the phrase satgur bahi kai vand kini (the true Guru made the distribution while sitting) for he is totally alien to the humble nature of Guru Arjan.132 He never directly refers to himself as the true Guru in his compositions. The hymn was definitely composed by a scribe who was highly motivated by the idea of completing the incomplete text in the name of the Guru. A recent example of a somewhat similar sort may be seen in Jodh Singh's addition of his own interpretation to his description of the Kartarpur Bir to solve the textual problem of this hymn. His note on the description of folio 703/1 reads as follows: 

118 Raga Ramkali Mahala 5 Salok
ran jhunjjhanara gau sakhi hari ekdhiavahu// satgur turn sev salmi: chindiara phalu pavahu//l//133

The word Sloke in the title and the numeral 1 at the end of the couplet do not occur in the original text of the Kartarpur volume. This is an example of making an incomplete text look like a complete text. Further, there are other examples in the Adi Granth where gurus employ single-line aphoristic sayings instead of Slokes. These single lines may be seen in the section assigned to Gurus' shaloks, surplus to the vars. 134

Thirdly, the most significant point is that Guru Arjan never employed such words as vand (distribution) or vandiahu (distribute!) anywhere in his compositions in the Adi Granth. These words did not form part of his usual lexicon. This fact alone makes improbable his authorship of the additional material of the hymn. Similarly, other words such as riti (rites), bhaddanu unetu (the tonsure rite), jevanavaru (the ritual feast associated with the sacred thread ceremony), namukaran (the name-giving ceremony) and mangeva ('the betrothal rite') only appear in the Banno version the Adi Granth in this disputed hymn. 136 Thus they were intentionally employed to give legitimacy to Brahmincal rituals in Sikh society, which were otherwise strongly repudiated by the Sikh Gurus, particularly by Guru Arjan himself. On a number of occasions Guru Nanak criticized the sacred thread (Uaneu), and other rituals associated with death (like pind, patal, kina, and diva) .137 Guru Arjan referred to the celebration of Guru Hargobind's birth by the sangat in form of the singing of gurbani, particularly the Ramakali Anandu of Page119, Guru Amar Das (gurbani sakhi anandu gavai).138 evidently this later tradition was the one in vogue among Sikhs at that time.

Fourthly, it is the fifth Guru who, like Guru Nanak, criticizes both Hindu and Muslim beliefs, practices and texts. In 0ne of his comments on Kabir's hymns, he explicitly says: 'We are neither Hindus, nor Musalman”. He further states that he has settled the difference between Hindu and Muslim (as Kabir did), not by working out some kind of synthesis of the two, nor by keeping the observances of both, such as fasts, pilgrimage, prayers and worship, but by cultivating the remembrance of Akal Purkh within the heart. Although there is no direct reference to life-cycle rituals as such, it is implied in the general category of Hindu practices. 140 One can then raise the question as to how Guru Arjan could have been the author of such a hymn, which sanctifies Hindu rituals, when he himself was a strong critic of them. It is much more likely that the real the author of the extra material in the Ramkali hymn was a person who was under a strong Brahmincal influence. In this context Piar Singh has suggested that either a Bhatt (bard) or a Brahmin family priest) composed this hymn on the occasion of the marriage to receive jajamani (gift or stipend) from his parents. This hymn, he argues, became current under the signatures of Nanak and was then incorporated into the Banno version of Adi Granth. Gurinder Mann, on the other hand, unconvincingly uses the argument of signatures to prove Guru Arjan’s authorship of this hymn. 142 Two signatures binvanti nanak (Nanak begs) and the janu kahai nanak (Nanak the servant says) that appear in this hymn, also appear in certain hymns of Guru Arjan. But this sole convention cannot be used to attribute the hymn to the fifth Guru. It seems likely that anybody (a pundit or a Bhatt) could have picked up such expressions and composed the hymn in the name of Guru Arjan.

Fifthly, the poetic style of the hymn is flattering and plodding, unlike what we encounter in the authentic Bani of Guru Arjan. In the first two lines following the original couplet, for instance, one Page 120 can easily sense how the author is at pains to create a tortured rhyme Uammia/punnia), and similar is the case with the last two lines of the hymn (sura/tUra). The use of the clumsy phrase charjivan in contrast to Guru Arjan's chir jivan is another indication that the author of the additional part was not a good poet. More importantly it is lacking in the structural unity that is usually achieved by Guru Arjan in his hymns. The overall tone of reading in the original scarcely matches the rhythmic beauty of Guru Arjan's poetic style.

Finally, the theory of the origin of the Banno recension (that I have discussed in detail in my doctoral work143) needs to be further qualified in view of the above analysis. The issue of Brahmincal influence must be considered in the union of Hindali, Udasi and Bhatra interests. We shall return to this issue in Chapter Seven. This Banno interest group, it seems, had a hidden agenda to arrest the process of crystallization of the Sikh tradition. Whereas the elite group of the Panth had developed a strong sense of distinctive identity, a large body of believers was still following Brahmincal traditions. 144 The Banno group had started to exert its influence within the Panth in the area of Khara Mangat in Gujrat district, while the main centre of Sikh activities under Guru Har Gobind had already shifted to Kiratpur. Even the Amritsar area was under the control of Minas, Prithichand's descendants, and their followers. This was a time when apocryphal literature was proliferating under Brahmincal influence. This is evident from a manuscript containing the text Sukhamani Sahansarnama written by Miharban's successor under the symbol of mahalu 8 in 1646 (sambat 1703 manghar sudi 1 ).145 This composition is based on the model of Guru Arjan's Sukhamani and praises th!} Vaishnava avatars and other figures from Hindu mythology. It clearly indicates that the process of Hinduization of Sikh tradition had already begun. It was during this period that the Banno Bir was copied from the original volume in 1642, although the additional material was interpolated into it some time later. This was an intentional tampering with the Adi Granth text, which was done to legitimize the Hindu life-cycle rituals in the Sikh community by putting words into the mouth of Guru Arjan.146

Page 121 In the light of the textual analysis of the Ramkali hymn examines W.H. McLeod’s views on the Kartarpur-Banno debate. The following excerpts from his article may prove useful in our analysis:

The nature of these points as recorded in the Banno version suggests an obvious reason for their deletion from the Kartarpur manuscript. They incorporate concepts which would be unacceptable in the light of later Khalsa ideals. This particularly applies to a Ramkali hymn attributed to Guru Arjan which, in its Banno form, refers to the shaving of child Hargobind's head....

If the additional portions supplied by Banno version correspond to deletions in the Kartarpur manuscript there could conceivably be justification for concluding that Banno represents an earlier recension than Kartarpur.

Let it not be supposed that at this stage I am arguing this case as one which I am personally prepared to affirm. This I am certainly not prepared to do....
There is thus no suggestion that the Kartarpur claims are on the brink of refutation. The point which I am endeavouring to make is simply that we need a sustained campaign of textual analysis if we are to establish a sure and certain text.147

Here McLeod argues that the Khalsa ideals could have provided' motive for the deletion (though upon close examination we now know that there is no actual deletion) of the additional portions of the Ramkali hymn in the Kartarpur manuscript. I have personally examined folio 703/1 of the Kartarpur manuscript and can affirm that while there is a blank space of more than two folios after the opening verse of the Ramkali hymn, there is no evidence of any erasure or any other kind of deletion. If there were such a deletion, it would support the claim that the Banno text may actually represent an earlier recension than the Kartarpur text.
Thus McLeod’s hypothesis is a clear case of retrospective interpretation which cannot be convincingly applied to explain seventeenth-century Sikh situation. The question of later deletion in this instance cannot be taken seriously since there are a number of seventeenth-century manuscripts of the Adi Granth that do not contain the extra material of the Banno version. Also, the assumption Page 122 that the hymn is somehow related to the puberty rites of Guru Har Gobind cannot be sustained. It should be emphasized here, however, that McLeod suspends his final judgement on the Kartarpur Banno issue and, instead, urges that there be a sustained campaign of textual analysis to establish a sure and certain text. Recently, however, McLeod has revised his position on the issue of Guru Arjan's Ramkali hymn. 148

In concluding the argument of this section it may be stated that the Ramkali hymn, as found in the Kartarpur manuscript, never consisted of more than two aphoristic sayings, which may have been uttered by Guru Arjan on the occasion of a marriage. These sayings, which stand recorded in the Kartarpur volume, were perhaps intended to be developed into a complete hymn later. There is another such instance provided by Var Basant in the Adi Granth, which, unlike other Vaars of the Gurus, has only three stanzas.149 According to tradition, when Guru Arjan had just completed three stanzas of this Var, he was informed by a Sikh that langar ('communal meal') was ready. He left the work unfinished and joined the congregation for meals. This incomplete composition was recorded in the Kartarpur manuscript much later. Unfortunately Guru Arjan was executed by the Mughal authorities in 1606, before he could complete these compositions. It is my contention that it was the Banno group that completed the Ramkali hymn in their version of the Adi Granth in order to legitimize the Brahmincal life-cycle rituals in the Sikh community. This is my answer to the, academic question raised in the Kartarpur-Banno debate that has been going on for the last two decades.

We can discuss it later.

Virinder


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 30, 2009)

*Re: McLeod and associates and their writing about Sikhism*

A Video disclosing Mcleods writing against Sikhi and Dr. Pashuara being summoned to Akal Takht and found guilty of 5 charges of blasphemy. * Deletion of personal attack on another forum member. A professional association with someone with controversial views does not constitute agreement with those controversial views. Avoid guilt by association. Please debate the issues and not the personalities of other forum members : aad0002*
*
Tampering with the warnings of a forum moderator is a risky thing to do. I have re-instituted the bold fonts and color. aad0002 (later in the day)*

McLeod+sikhism - Google Video#

*Akal Takht Indicts Pashaura Singh 
* 
By STAFF 
According to Virinder Singh Grewal, who has been closely associated with Pashaura Singh's tenure at University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, "the then Jathedar Manjit Singh wrote the confession of the doctor himself in Punjabi, and asked him to sign it and read it" (Sikh-Diaspora, Yahoo! Groups, August 9, 2005). 

globalsikhstudies.net, Amritsar, Jun. 27, 1994 






Photo: Pashaura Singh 

In a historic judgement delivered by Professor Manjit Singh, Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht, the highest spiritual and temporal authority/seat of Sikhs, Pashaura Singh was declared guilty of five charges of blasphemy. Pashaura Singh had made a number of baseless observations in his Ph.D. thesis, 'The Text and Meaning of the Adi Granth,' submitted to the University of Toronto in 1991, to please his supervisor who is well known as an adversary of Sikhism and with an eye on a university job. The unanimous verdict followed a detailed hearing of Pashaura Singh's case in an 8 hour non-stop session of the five high priests presided over by Prof. Manjit Singh at the Akal Takht Sahib on the 25th June 1994.

The judgement says that Pashaura Singh had attacked the authenticity of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, which had deeply hurt the sentiments of the Panth. He had also levelled baseless charges against the fourth and the fifth Masters, saying that they had made alterations in the Mul Mantra as well as linguistic and theological changes in the bani of Guru Nanak. 

The tankhah (religious punishment) awarded to Pashaura Singh for the offences committed by him, includes dusting of shoes of the sangat, washing of the parkarma [walkway] of Sri Harmandir Sahib, besides listening to kirtan and reciting of Japuji Sahib, over a period of five weeks. At the completion of this penance he has been directed to appear before the sangat at the local gurdwara in Michigan, where he resides, and request the granthi [priest] to pray for his forgiveness. It may still be necessary for him to finally appear before the Akal Takht for forgiveness as is the normal procedure in such matters. 

It may be recalled that Pashaura Singh's thesis had attracted sharp criticism from scholars, and incurred indignation and condemnation of the masses for its blasphemous formulations. S.G.P.C., the highest elected religious body of the Sikhs, took cognizance of the offence, and after a thorough scrutiny by two Expert Committees of scholars, referred the matter to Sri Akal Takht Sahib for appropriate action. 

The judgement which is reproduced [below], also directs Pashaura Singh not to publish his thesis in the present form. During the hearing Pashaura Singh submitted a confessional statement in which he pleaded guilty to all charges, and undertook to revise his thesis as well as his previous publications in the light of the findings of the present inquiry. We are also reproducing the five charges read out to Pashaura Singh, to which he pleaded guilty. In fact, these represent only a sample of the blasphemous contents of his thesis. 

The Judgment 

Ik Onkar 

Waheguru ji ki Fateh 

Sri Akal Takht Sahib 

No . . . /217/ /94 Hukmnama Sri Amritsar 27/6/94 

Dr. Pashaura Singh, 

On summons from Sri Akal Takht Sahib you presented yourself before the Takht on the 25th June, 1994 in connection with your controversial thesis 'The Text and Meaning of the Adi Granth.' After prolonged deliberations in the sacred congregation of Sikh scholars, you have pleaded guilty in writing to the five charges of misrepresentations levelled against you. In this connection you have also pledged to bow your head before every decision of the Takht. 

The views expressed in your thesis have caused intense hurt to the sentiments of Sikhs who accept Sri Guru Granth Sahib as their Living Guru. This has been demonstrated by Sikhs in India and abroad through a large number of letters, messages and books, received in the Akal Takht Sahib during the last two years. Such pious sentiments of love towards the Guru, on the part of the Sikh Sangat, have always found expression through the Akal Takht Sahib. 

As a Sikh scholar, you were expected to produce literature to promote the welfare of all, with commitment to Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the Guru Panth. But what happened was exactly the opposite of this. Taking cognizance of the overall situation in the Panth, Sri Akal Takht is pleased to issue the following orders for your compliance: 

1) You shall not publish this controversial thesis in the present form, nor shall you authorize anyone else to publish it. 

2) The charges and the objections relating to doctrines or presentation, raised by Sikh scholars against this thesis, have been pointed out, and accepted by you. Some of these have been given to you in writing. These shall be removed by you in letter and spirit from the thesis. And in case the thesis is to be published in the future, it will be done according to Gurmat with full regard for the sentiments of the Sikh community. 

3) In deference to the sentiments of the Guru Panth you shall also not publish any other such objectionable material as produced by you earlier. In the future you shall ever keep in mind the sentiments for the ascendancy of the Panth and salvation of all, and conduct only such research on Gurbani and Sikh history, as would lead to blessings of the Living Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the Guru Panth. 

Keeping in view the charges in respect of your thesis, the following tankhah [religious punishment] is prescribed for you: 

1) In order to seek divine understanding at the portals of the Lord Guru, you shall listen to kirtan at the Darbar Sahib on the 27th and 28th June, 1994 for one hour each day. 

2) On these days, for one hour each day, you shall recite the Japuji five times, over and above the nitnem [daily prayer regiment]. 

3) On the same days in order to seek blessings of the Guru Sangat, you shall join the daily chore of washing the parkarma [walkway] of the Darbar Sahib for one hour each day in the afternoons. 

4) In America, where you live, you shall present yourself at the local Gurdwara Sahib; you shall perform the service of dusting the shoes of the sangat for five Sundays. Also for one hour each day you shall listen to gurbani kirtan, as well as recite Japuji five times, besides the nitnem, on each of these days. 

At the end, you shall present yourself at the Gurdwara and request the Granthi Sahib to pray for forgiveness/indulgence for you. 

(Signed) Kewal Singh, Jathedar, Takht Damadama Sahib 

(Signed) Manjit Singh, Jathedar, Sri Akal Takht Sahib 

(Signed) Joginder Singh, Granthi, Sri Harmandir Sahib 

(Signed) Bhagwan Singh, Head Granthi, Sri Akal Takht Sahib 

(Signed) Mohan Singh, Head Granthi, Sri Harmandir Sahib 

The Confession 

(English translation of confessional statement of Pashaura Singh in Punjabi in Pashaura Singh's own handwriting at Sri Akal Takht, Amritsar on June 25, 1994.) 

June 25, 1994 

The Five Singh Sahiban, Sri Akal Takht Sahib, Amritsar Sahib 

Your Holiness 

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa; Waheguru ji ki Fateh. 

Under orders from Sri Akal Takht Sahib, appearing at the Takht Sahib, this humble servant pleads guilty to the five charges in respect of my thesis (The Text and Meaning of the Adi Granth), read out as well as given to me in writing. I hereby reject in thought, word and deed all such objectionable formulations that occur in my thesis. I beg forgiveness of the Panth for whatever hurt the conclusions drawn by me in my thesis have caused to the Panth. In future I pledge to serve the Panth as a humble servant of the Panth. I also willingly accept whatever decision is announced by the Singh Sahiban. 

(Signed) Pashaura Singh 25/06/1994 

The Confession (Original in Gurmukhi/Punjabi) 










Source: http://www.sikhtimes.com/news_062794a.html


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 30, 2009)

*Bhai Banno’s Bir:* Bhai Banno was a contemporary of Guru Arjan and Guru Hargobind. He rendered service at the construction of Harimandir at Amritsar. After completion of the Granth, he was deputed to take the volume for binding at Lahore after visiting his village on the way. During his, this journey he prepared his own copy of the Holy Granth. He got both the copies bound. (It is interesting to note that at that time all books were bound in cow hyde- Ref. Dr. Gurinder Singh Mann UCLA-Santa Barbra)It is said that he introduced some hymns, which had been omitted by the fifth Guru in his volume and installed it in his house at Khara-Mangat. Hymns added were:

1. A hymn by Kabir in Raag Sorath; “Audhu So Jogi Guru Mera …”

2. The disputed Chhant by Guru Arjan in Raag Ramkali; “Ran Jhunjhanara Gao 
Sakhi …” AGGS, Page 927

3. Mira Bai’s pada, “ Man Hamara Bandhio mai …“ in raag Maru.

4. Surdas pada, Chaddi Man Hari Bemukhan Kau Sang…..in raag Sarang.

5. Apocrypha current in the name of Guru Nanak; 

     a) Jit Dar Lakh Mohammada; Es Kalio n Panj Bhition; Dist Na Rahia Nanaka.
     b) Bai atash Ab ...: 16 Slokes.
     c) Ratanmala …: 25 stanzas.

6. Haqiqat Rah Mukam Rajeh Shivnabhi Ki;

7. Siahi Ki Bidhi.

This Bir is lodged in Bhai Banno Sahib Gurudwara at Kanpur.------Gatha AGGS by Piar Singh

Questions arise that Guru Arjan wrote lot of hymns in AGGS on his son (Later 6th Guru) why Bhai Banno so dedicated Sikh should make the changes?

Was he capable or educated to do it?

If he not than who?

Were still some rituals were being performed at that time?

Has the rest of the Sabd in question been deleted not confoming to the present Sikh thought?

It is said that the copy or the original Pothi lying at Kartarpur is a draft kind having writings on margins, empty places and writings removed by the use of Harhtal.

IMHO Sikh Gurus could not remove the rituals being carried out since centuries in an instant.

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 30, 2009)

*The Kartarpuri Bir;* The custodians of this Bir claim it to be the original “Adi Granth”prepared by Bhai Gurdas under the direct supervision and guidance of Guru Arjan. Being a private property, it is not open to all for inspection. Only a few chosen persons have had access to it.

Due to the controversy surrounding Raag Mala, in the early 20th century, SGPC asked a committee consisting of Bhai Jodh Singh, Principal Ganga Singh and Jathedar Mohan Singh to determine if it was a genuine part or an interloper in AGGS.

The contentions before them were:

1. Ragmala is an integral part of the Bir 

2. The Bir fulfills 3 conditions necessary

      a) Japu is a copy of one inscribed by Guru Ramdas.

      b) The dates of demise of the first to fifth Gurus in it are in Bhai Gurdas’s handwriting.

      c) Approval marks of Sudhu and Sudhu Keechai are in Guru Arjan’s handwriting.

3. The discrepancies in actual folio numbers in sabad-tatkara are explainable.

4. The Bir has three Tatkaras, which is a unique feature of this Bir.

The Kartarpur Manuscript has a total number of marked 974 folios (i.e. 1948 pages). The folio 
numbers are written on left-hand pages following the Sanskritic tradition. 226 folios (i.e. 456 pages are completely blank and some other folios are partly blank. Work was still going on even after 1604 CE on a Master Draft. 

The present copies are from a Bir lying at Anandpur.

Persons, who examined this Bir;

1. Harnam Das Udasin’s book came out in 1969 and 1972 claiming that this Bir is not the original Bir prepared by Bhai Gurdas under the supervision of Guru Arjan. It is a defective version of Bhai Banno’s version. He doubts the veracity of Guru’s autograph and it contains thousand of errors. He says that this and the Damdami original Birs are not available.

2. Taran Taran Gianis - Ishar Singh, Narain Singh, and Lachman Singh examined this Bir in 1924.

3. Bhai Manna Singh reports 200 text-variants of this Bir.

4. Sant Gurbachan Singh Khalsa.

5. S. Randhir Singh late research scholar of SGPC.

6. Daljit Singh’s work is supportive of Bhai Jodh Singh’s views.

7. Dr.Mcleod mentions that two other Englishmen with Bhai Jodh Singh examined Bir named Dr. 
J.C.Archer and Dr.C.H.Loehlin.

*Bhai Jodh Singh’s findings;*

1. The Granth has a new margin affixed to it on all four sides and mended at many places.

2. Folio numbers appear on the left side.

3. Folio numbers appearing in the table of contents often differ from those in the text.

4. The Bir has large numbers of blank pages in between the inscribed ones.

5. All the folio-pages that are blank or inscribed have foil numbers, indicating that numbering was done before the hymns were inscribed.

6. Just below certain sub-headings of Raag Asa or Gauri are hanging figures peculiar to this copy.

7. Bir has three Tatkaras: Suchi-patra, Sabd-tatkara and Tatkara-tatkara. This shows where respective ragas figure in the Sabd-tatkara.

8. The suchi-patra lists the presence of two autographs in the Bir, one by fifth Guru and the other by 6th Guru.

9. The Bir has few extra-canonical documents pasted on it, a recipe for converting mercury in to ash (kushta, bhasam) to make it serve as panacea for several diseases.

10. There are numerous discrepancies in the listing of hymns in the tatkaras and their corresponding texts in the Bir.

11. At the close of certain vars the word sudh or sudh keechai appears as proper.

12. The vars have tunes (dhunies) indicated on them.

13. The Bir abounds in numerous cuttings, deletions, additions, and corrections. Corrections at certain places have been made by erasing the previous matter with hartal, the yellow paste, where as many deletions have been effected by penning through the unwanted text.

14. It has only Raag Mala at the end. No other apocryphal matter mentioned in the contents page is available.

15. Five to six hands can be discerned at work in the Bir. These have to be accounted for since it is claimed to be solely written by Bhai Gurdas.

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI


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## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2009)

It is important to establish as rules for discussion that reporting the views of someone does not equal endorsing their views. Thus when forum member virinder ji reports on a sequence of events as established in the writing of Dr. Pashuara, he is not necessarily agreeing with Dr. Pashuara.

There have been numerous discussions of the Kartarpur Bir, here on SPN and elsewhere, in which the authenticity of two birs (Kartarpur Bir and Banno Bir)  has been vetted. Forum member virinderji has noted this as a controversy. We now have two articles posted that look at each bir independently. _Discussion is not furthered by anything less than permitting discussion itself to take place. 
_


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 30, 2009)

Dear Tony,

I do not agree with the findings of Dr. Pashara Singh's article I posted. I posted it to start a discussion. While I posted a gist of both Birs, IMHO some changes have been made by some one.
Kartarpur Bir with its draft like structure, cuttings, additions, written on the margins, deletions as reported by Bhai Jodh Singh indicates adulteration.

By who?

This Bir was in possession of East India Company(English rulars) for 1-2 years before it was returned back to the owners.

Looking at with an open mind I would accept that ritualism at that time was in vogue and Sikh Gurus could not get rid off century old customs. I would accept the Sabd in question to be valid as written in Banno's Bir.

Cordially, 

Virinder


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## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2009)

Veer virinder ji

Please do not feel you have to explain yourself to me. For the sake of forum members who may be wondering what is going on... Discussions of the authenticity of the Kartarpur Bir are not new. Professor Sahib Singh reviewed many of the same anomalies that you have discussed in this thread and came to a similar conclusion. He is certain that the Kartarpur Bir pre-dates the Banno Bir and is the authentic Aadi Granth. I have uploaded his monograph, About The Compilation of the SGGS (1949 and 1951), in translation and edited by Professor Dalip Singh, with a forward by Dr. Noel King (1996).

It is clear from your first article about this subject that you have also concluded the Kartarpur Bir is the original document, and that areas of confusion are probably the result of deliberate acts to efface the scripture when the bir was under the control of British agents.

Please see the attached (Forgive me. I have already brought this to the forum's attention too many times.)

View attachment Compilation of SGGS.pdf


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 30, 2009)

Dear Tony Ji,

I was not a member of this forum at the time of previous debate. The discussion started from the incomplete Sabd of Guru Arjan in Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 927. To continue the debate I have concluded (though I am no body) that Banno Bir is right. My conclusion on the Sabd in question comes as follows;

Guru Arjan’s Autobiographical hymns regarding his son;

He wrote about 30 Sabds regarding Hargobind his only son in various modes and why not the one in question; and two of them are presented here;

On his *Birthday *in Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 396;

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਾਚੈ ਦੀਆ ਭੇਜਿ ॥ ਚਿਰੁ ਜੀਵਨੁ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਸੰਜੋਗਿ ॥ ਉਦਰੈ ਮਾਹਿ ਆਇ ਕੀਆ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ॥ ਮਾਤਾ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਿਗਾਸੁ ॥ ਜੰਮਿਆ ਪੂਤੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਕਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰ ਕਾ ॥ ਦਸੀ ਮਾਸੀ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਜਨਮੁ ਲੀਆ ॥ ਮਿਟਿਆ ਸੋਗੁ ਮਹਾ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਥੀਆ ॥ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਸਖੀ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਗਾਵੈ ॥ ਸਾਚੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥ ਵਧੀ ਵੇਲਿ ਬਹੁ ਪੀੜੀ ਚਾਲੀ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਕਲਾ ਹਰਿ ਬੰਧਿ ਬਹਾਲੀ ॥ ਮਨ ਚਿੰਦਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦਿਵਾਇਆ ॥ ਭਏ ਅਚਿੰਤ ਏਕ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਲਕੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਊਪਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਬਹੁ ਮਾਣੁ ॥ ਬੁਲਾਇਆ ਬੋਲੈ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਭਾਣਿ ॥ ਗੁਝੀ ਛੰਨੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਬਾਤ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤੁਠਾ ਕੀਨੀ ਦਾਤਿ ॥

_Saṯgur sācẖai ḏī▫ā bẖej. Cẖir jīvan upji▫ā sanjog. Uḏrai māhi ā▫e kī▫ā nivās. Māṯā kai man bahuṯ bigās. Jammi▫ā pūṯ bẖagaṯ govinḏ kā. Pargati▫ā sabẖ mėh likẖi▫ā ḏẖur kā. Ḏasī māsī hukam bālak janam lī▫ā. Miti▫ā sog mahā anand thī▫ā. Gurbāṇī sakẖī anand gāvai. Sācẖe sāhib kai man bẖāvai. vaḏẖī vel baho pīṛī cẖālī. Ḏẖaram kalā har banḏẖ bahālī. Man cẖinḏi▫ā saṯgurū ḏivā▫i▫ā. Bẖa▫e acẖinṯ ek liv lā▫i▫ā. Ji▫o bālak piṯā ūpar kare baho māṇ. Bulā▫i▫ā bolai gur kai bẖāṇ. Gujẖī cẖẖannī nāhī bāṯ. Gur Nānak ṯuṯẖā kīnī ḏāṯ._ 

The True Guru has truly given a child. The long-lived one has been born to this destiny.
He came to acquire a home in the womb, and his mother's heart is so very glad. A son is born - a devotee of the Creator of the Universe. This pre-ordained destiny has been revealed to all. In the tenth month, by the God's Order, the baby has been born. Sorrow is dispelled, and great joy has ensued. The companions blissfully sing the songs of the Guru's Bani. This is pleasing to the Eternal Akal Purkh. The vine has grown, and shall last for many generations. The Power of the Righteousness has been firmly established by the God. That which my mind wishes for, the True Guru has granted. I have become carefree, and I fix my attention on the One Akal Purkh. As the child places so much faith in his father, I speak as it pleases the Guru to have me speak. This is not a hidden secret; Guru Nanak, greatly pleased, has bestowed this gift. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 396

2nd Sabd when Hargobind was afflicted by *Small Pox* in Raag Sorath;

ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਰਖਵਾਲਾ ਹੋਆ ॥ ਧਾਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹਾਥ ਦੇ ਰਾਖਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਵਿਦੁ ਨਵਾ ਨਿਰੋਆ ॥ ਤਾਪੁ ਗਇਆ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਆਪਿ ਮਿਟਾਇਆ ਜਨ ਕੀ ਲਾਜ ਰਖਾਈ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਫਲ ਪਾਏ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਂਈ ॥ ਹਲਤੁ ਪਲਤੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦੋਵੈ ਸਵਾਰੇ ਹਮਰਾ ਗੁਣੁ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਨ ਬੀਚਾਰਿਆ ॥ ਅਟਲ ਬਚਨੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਫਲ ਕਰੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਧਾਰਿਆ ॥

_Merā saṯgur rakẖvālā ho▫ā. Ḏẖār kirpā parabẖ hāth ḏe rākẖi▫ā har goviḏ navā niro▫ā. Ŧāp ga▫i▫ā parabẖ āp mitā▫i▫ā jan kī lāj rakẖā▫ī. Sāḏẖsangaṯ ṯe sabẖ fal pā▫e saṯgur kai bal jāŉ▫ī. Halaṯ palaṯ parabẖ ḏovai savāre hamrā guṇ avguṇ na bīcẖāri▫ā. Atal bacẖan Nānak gur ṯerā safal kar masṯak ḏẖāri▫ā._

My True Guru is my Savior and Protector. Showering us with Its Mercy and Grace, God extended Its Hand, and saved Hargobind, who is now safe and secure. The fever is gone - God It self eradicated it, and preserved the honor of His servant. I have obtained all blessings from the Company of the Holy; I am a sacrifice to the True Guru. God has saved me, both here and hereafter. God has not taken my merits and demerits into account. Your Word is eternal, O Guru Nanak; You placed Your Hand of blessing upon my forehead. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 620

Cordially,
Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI


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## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2009)

virinder ji

What do mean when you say Banno Bir is "right." The shabads you cite are well-known. I am not making the connection somehow. You must mean that the Banno Bir is correct on some particular point.
You have already stated that you believe that the Kartarpur Bir pre-dates the Banno Bir.  Did I read your earlier post incorrectly? Thanks for persisting with me.

Antonia


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 31, 2009)

Guru Arjun Ji sahib had founded the Town of AMRITSAR....and had all sorts of artisans..etc settled there.
Guru Arjun ji completed the ONE COPY of AAD GRANTH..in direct SUPERVISION of Bhai Gurdass JI..

It begs the question..WHY would Guru Arjun ji let this ONE ORIGINAL COPY of this Mahaan Granth ( Huge Project taking such a long time and effort to produce)...be handed over to Bhai BANNO...to be taken to Lahoire for BINDING ?? No one can bind it in AMRITSAR ?? The Binders cannot be brought to Amrtisar to Bind it in Guru Jis Presence ?? Sounds a far fetched story. Further the Banno fellow has SO MUCH TIME..he can make another COPY....( Without permission of Guru Ji )..and then make ADDITIONS etc...and Guru Arjun Ji is NOT at all WORRIED baout his MONUMENTAL WORK getting waylaid...lost...tampered with....with all the ENEMIES and Saboteurs..chugleekhors hanging around...jealous of the Granth ??? Seems we are making Guru ji out to be a simpleton...just pass his granth on to banno..and let him do as he pleases....after displaying his SUPERB EDITORIAL PROWESS in making the Granth virtually impossible to alter/add to...How Far is lahore from Amritsar..WHY let Banno make a DETOUR...taking the valuable Garnth with him and disappear for SO LONG ?? all sounds far fetched... The GURU would have ensured the Granth was BOUND in His presence so no hanky panky...

2. Where di GURU GOBIND SINGH JI send the Damdami Bir He had prepeared in Damdama Sahib in the DESERTS of Bhatinda....for BINDING ?? Was this also sent to Far away LAHORE ?? or DELHI ?? Tradition says FIVE COPIES of the Damdami Bir were prepared by Bhai Deep Singh Shaheed and sent to the various Takhats..Where did their BINDING take place and when ?? IF GGS could bind his own Granth...in a small village in Bhatinda.....why not Guru Arjun ji living in a town as big as Amrtisar ??
Imho the Banno bir was  a later copy....and additions made came to the attention of Guru Arjun ji who REJECTED IT as KHAREE BIR (salty/Sour due to unauthorised additions)


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 31, 2009)

Dear Tony Ji,

If it is true (I was not there) that Banno existed, and if it is true that Guru Arjan Sahib gave him a copy for binding and he made a copy of the Bir. Then the Sabd in his copy about the "Mundan" ceremony is true, indicating that the Hindu ritruals were still being carried on.

Banno Bir exists and why a dedicated Sikh will do add and complete the SAbd on Page 927. 

Was he capable of it?

In my thought why this Sabd only ends in two lines and not in the name of Nanak?

Is there adulteration in this Sabd. 

If so who did it?

Pashaura being my friend defended that the Sabd is just two line and I am not convinced. Guru Arjan wrote in his autobiographical about 30 Sabds on his son.

My question is why not this one, this is incomplete that it does not coincide with the present Sikh thought.

I am not a researcher or a scholar and so far I am not convinced and am of the opinion that rituals did existed during the time of fists 5 Gurus. The next three Gurus did not compose any Sabds. Later the Bani of 9th Guru was added by 10th Master and it became the present AGGS at Talwandi Sabo.

I am sorry I started this topic and so my further discussion ends with out any resolution of the question. Could it be English Rulars who did it?

Cordially,

Virinder


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## spnadmin (Mar 31, 2009)

virinderji

Thank you for persisting -- then you were responding to a very specific issue.  i appreciate the clarification.


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## spnadmin (Mar 31, 2009)

Virinder ji



Another question for you if you would be patient with me. I have been doing some research on the current turmoil surrounding Dr. Pashaura in which he is said to have comitted research misconduct. It is said that he based his work on a fraudulent document. This has appeared in several articles. What document are people talking about? I can find not a single newsarticle that states what that documnet is. Without this information, the debate looks like a witch hunt.

Thank you very much
Antonia


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 31, 2009)

Dear Tony Ji,

It is about Manuscript 1245. Pashaura Singh's writings question the authenticity of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and he accords importance to questionable manuscripts, one of which surfaced in 1987 and that he believes is a draft of the 1,430-page document compiled by Guru Arjan. Singh says the so-called 1245 manuscript, part of the rare book collection at Guru Nanak Dev University, Patiala, which includes sections that are blank and others that have been crossed out, showing evidence of having been edited. 


Cordially,


Virinder


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## spnadmin (Mar 31, 2009)

AHA!! Thank you virinder ji!


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 1, 2009)

Looking through this thread so far no one has even questioned 'Dr'. Pashuara 'Singh' *Creditability* or Dr. Mcleods on this matter.  A question, everyone that has commented on this thread should be asking is who gave Dr. Pashaura's PhD. Also it's wise to keep in mind that 'Dr'. Pashaura said Guru Arjan Dev ji distorted Guru Nanak Dev ji's Bani.  Dr. pashaura 'Singh' Trustable! I don't think so,  I wouldn't even leave my penny lying next to him.

Here's another interesting fact, 'Dr'. Pashaura 'Singh' was a student of Dr. Mcleod and then became a *real *close associate.

Dr. Mcleod has stated that Sikhism is a sect of Hinduism.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 1, 2009)

My question:

Does it really matter if the Kartarpur Bir is not authentic?


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks all.
Virinder


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 1, 2009)

randip singh said:


> My question:
> 
> Does it really matter if the Kartarpur Bir is not authentic?



Not really...we already have nearly a million copies of the SGGS. By 1708..quite a few thousand were already in distribution....

But there will always be some who want to.."seed doubts"...so that once Sikhs begin to have doubts about their GURU's "authenticity"....then to seed further doubts becomes real easy....like..is this "bani" authentic..should it be in the sggs....why not remove that bani..it looks.."not quite in line"...??? etc Many tried this approach....agaisnt Raagmala...bhagat bani..bhatt swaiyyas...these types will never stop....the Panch Khalsas Bhasaurri types tried the "rough shod way..simply remove what they dont like and print the new edited sggs ( Akal takhat excomunicated Teja Singh for that and banned his truncated "new sggs"... sans bhagat bani/Bhatt swaiyas  and raagmala) others try the "Academic research" way..
Dr Baldev Singh, Dr Mann etc have very ably answered the MCLeod Group. One should read BOTH Groups to arrive at a balanced view. ( Interestingly the SANT BABAS Group couldnt arrive at any written arguments ( as usual)...their approach is sabre rattling/noisy demonstrations/book burning ) During the Panch Khalsa times also they kept aloof....and left it to the likes of Dr Ganda Singh and others to defend Sikh History etc. through well written arguments.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 1, 2009)

Dear All,

The whole thread has been spinned from the original question and is on a slippery slop and criticising different persons/writers. This was not the attention.

The question was why the sabd of Guru Arjan in Raag Ramkali does not end in the name of Nanak?

Cordially,

Virinder


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## spnadmin (Apr 1, 2009)

virinder ji

I have deleted 3 of your previous posts because, after reading each one, they looked to me like they were the same except for some differences in fonts. Let me know if this was an error on my part. They can be restored if they are different. Please forgive me.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 1, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Not really...we already have nearly a million copies of the SGGS. By 1708..quite a few thousand were already in distribution....
> 
> But there will always be some who want to.."seed doubts"...so that once Sikhs begin to have doubts about their GURU's "authenticity"....then to seed further doubts becomes real easy....like..is this "bani" authentic..should it be in the sggs....why not remove that bani..it looks.."not quite in line"...??? etc Many tried this approach....agaisnt Raagmala...bhagat bani..bhatt swaiyyas...these types will never stop....the Panch Khalsas Bhasaurri types tried the "rough shod way..simply remove what they dont like and print the new edited sggs ( Akal takhat excomunicated Teja Singh for that and banned his truncated "new sggs"... sans bhagat bani/Bhatt swaiyas and raagmala) others try the "Academic research" way..
> Dr Baldev Singh, Dr Mann etc have very ably answered the MCLeod Group. One should read BOTH Groups to arrive at a balanced view. ( Interestingly the SANT BABAS Group couldnt arrive at any written arguments ( as usual)...their approach is sabre rattling/noisy demonstrations/book burning ) During the Panch Khalsa times also they kept aloof....and left it to the likes of Dr Ganda Singh and others to defend Sikh History etc. through well written arguments.


 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dear Randip Ji,

To relieve your doubts here is a copy of the writing from Encyclopedia of Sikhism;
Page, 279 describing the history of Banno and his carrying the 2nd copy of Pothi Sahib to his house.

*BANNO BHAI (1558-1645)*

*BANNO, BHAI (1558-1645), a prominent Sikh contemporary of Guru Arjan and Guru Hargobind,* was the son of Bhai Bishan Dev of village Mangat, also called Khara-Maligat, Khara being its older name, in Phalia. tahsil of Gujrat district (now in Pakistan). He was born on Saturday, Baisakh sudi 13, 1615 Bk/ 30 April 1558. Banno grew up with a deeply religious disposition. He turned a Sikh and rendered diligent service during the construction of Harimandar at Amritsar under Guru Arjan. On the completion of the compilation of (Guru) Granth Sahib in 1604, Guru Arjan deputed Bhai Banno to carry the holy *volume to Lahore for binding.* The later with the Guru's permission first carried it to his village and then brought it back to Lahore. During his journey to and from his village he prepared his own copy of the Holy Book. He got, both the copies bound and brought them to the Guru, who installed the original copy (Adi Bir) in the Harimandar and returned the other copy to Bhai Banno. This recension came to be known as Bhai Banno Vali Bir or *Khare Vali Bir*, because the Bhai had installed it in his own house at Khara-Maligat.

Bhai Banno continued to preach Sikh tenets in the north-western parts of the Punjab till his death in Magh 1701 Bk/January 1645.

*BIBLIOGRAPHY*

1. Bhalla, Sarup Das, Mahima Prakash. Patiala, 1971

2. Bal, Rajinder Singh, Bhai Banno Darpan. Jalandhar, 1989 

3. Bhai Banno Sahib. Kanpur, n. d.

4. Gurbilas Chhevlri Patshahi. Patiala, 1970

Cordially,
Virinder


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 2, 2009)

Virinder Ji,

I posted my comments based on the research of Prof Sahib Singh and the scholarly work of the Late Daljeet Singh of IOSS who wrote an Abstract..Authenticity of the Kartarpur Bir. In that he dissects each of the many reasons and fallcious arguments agaisnt KB.
He cites his conclusion that Bhai bannos Bir is a later production and copy of the KB. I agree with his point as all the arguments about Blank pages and margin insertions have a perfectly logical answer. The Blank pages about 560 out of total 970...is proof od Originality rather than Copy..because the Blanks show that Bhai Gurdass was over guessing pages needed for Gurbani..while a Copyist wouldnt need to have EXTRA pages as he is merely COPYING a FINISHED Product. Margin insertions ahppend when Bhai Gurdass ji UNDERESTIMATED the pages and ran short...

My assertion about "seeders of doubt" apply generally to many.... Please dont take it personally just because you posted this article. My mail makes it clear who i consider such seeders to be....from the Dhirmalliahs..the Hindalis..to Bhasuaris..and MC Leodians....the list is long...

The Bhai banno story is too much full of holes....Guru Arjun ji would never let such a valuable PIO DADDEH da KHAZANAH.....out of his sight...just for binding....and IF Banno can take it away to his village..wouldnt the other Sikhs also wnat that privilege..the Granth would never come back ( Personally many of my books never returned once they were "borrowed" !! and Libraries i connect with also have the same story...people never change..)

Cordially


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## spnadmin (Apr 2, 2009)

Virinder ji

With folded hands, and complete respect for the value of this discussion and your contribution, I ask that you not post the same article again. Thank you.  aad0002


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 2, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Virinder ji
> 
> With folded hands, and complete respect for the value of this discussion and your contribution, I ask that you not post the same article again. Thank you. aad0002


 
No Problem Tony Ji.
Thanks.
Virinder


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## pk70 (Apr 2, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Virinder Ji,
> 
> I posted my comments based on the research of Prof Sahib Singh and the scholarly work of the Late Daljeet Singh of IOSS who wrote an Abstract..Authenticity of the Kartarpur Bir. In that he dissects each of the many reasons and fallcious arguments agaisnt KB.
> He cites his conclusion that Bhai bannos Bir is a later production and copy of the KB. I agree with his point as all the arguments about Blank pages and margin insertions have a perfectly logical answer. The Blank pages about 560 out of total 970...is proof od Originality rather than Copy..because the Blanks show that Bhai Gurdass was over guessing pages needed for Gurbani..while a Copyist wouldnt need to have EXTRA pages as he is merely COPYING a FINISHED Product. Margin insertions ahppend when Bhai Gurdass ji UNDERESTIMATED the pages and ran short...
> ...



*Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji*
*I concur.*
*Dr Sahib Singh Ji has given a logic anaysis to test the story of Bhai Bano. GB Singh also rushed to conclusion just because he was not shown one Bir he wanted to see. As you have pointed out earlier, it is to create the doubt. Randip Singh Ji asked earlier “What big difference it makes if it is not the original one?”, I agree with him too. So what if there are only two lines of Fifth Nanak in Rahg Ramkali?. Why all Fifth Nanak’s banis are not read and check out what he says in essence?  Are these guys are saying that there were more than two lines and Guru might have written something he never wrote in his previous banis? Just because there are only two lines, does it mean some thing was omitted that goes against the concept of Guru Message? And here are these guys like Pashoura Singfh to warn Sikhs. It is a game to get name in headlines and to keep means of living safe to please the provider of that. Look at the article on Bano, whatever is written there, on what ground it can be true?*


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 2, 2009)

*Guru Arjan’s Autobiographical hymns regarding his son;*

Guru Arjan wrote about 30 full Sabds regarding Hargobind his only son and the one in question has only two lines which do not end in the name of Nanak. Is there any other example where Guru Arjan has written a Sabd ending with out the name of the Nanak? Here are two Sabds e.g. in favor of his son;

*On his Birthday in Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 396;*

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਾਚੈ ਦੀਆ ਭੇਜਿ ॥ ਚਿਰੁ ਜੀਵਨੁ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਸੰਜੋਗਿ ॥ ਉਦਰੈ ਮਾਹਿ ਆਇ ਕੀਆ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ॥ ਮਾਤਾ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਿਗਾਸੁ ॥ ਜੰਮਿਆ ਪੂਤੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਕਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰ ਕਾ ॥ ਦਸੀ ਮਾਸੀ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਜਨਮੁ ਲੀਆ ॥ ਮਿਟਿਆ ਸੋਗੁ ਮਹਾ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਥੀਆ ॥ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਸਖੀ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਗਾਵੈ ॥ ਸਾਚੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥ ਵਧੀ ਵੇਲਿ ਬਹੁ ਪੀੜੀ ਚਾਲੀ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਕਲਾ ਹਰਿ ਬੰਧਿ ਬਹਾਲੀ ॥ ਮਨ ਚਿੰਦਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦਿਵਾਇਆ ॥ ਭਏ ਅਚਿੰਤ ਏਕ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਲਕੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਊਪਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਬਹੁ ਮਾਣੁ ॥ ਬੁਲਾਇਆ ਬੋਲੈ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਭਾਣਿ ॥ ਗੁਝੀ ਛੰਨੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਬਾਤ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤੁਠਾ ਕੀਨੀ ਦਾਤਿ ॥

_Saṯgur sācẖai ḏī▫ā bẖej. Cẖir jīvan upji▫ā sanjog. Uḏrai māhi ā▫e kī▫ā nivās. Māṯā kai man bahuṯ bigās. Jammi▫ā pūṯ bẖagaṯ govinḏ kā. Pargati▫ā sabẖ mėh likẖi▫ā ḏẖur kā. Ḏasī māsī hukam bālak janam lī▫ā. Miti▫ā sog mahā anand thī▫ā. Gurbāṇī sakẖī anand gāvai. Sācẖe sāhib kai man bẖāvai. vaḏẖī vel baho pīṛī cẖālī. Ḏẖaram kalā har banḏẖ bahālī. Man cẖinḏi▫ā saṯgurū ḏivā▫i▫ā. Bẖa▫e acẖinṯ ek liv lā▫i▫ā. Ji▫o bālak piṯā ūpar kare baho māṇ. Bulā▫i▫ā bolai gur kai bẖāṇ. Gujẖī cẖẖannī nāhī bāṯ. Gur Nānak ṯuṯẖā kīnī ḏāṯ._ 

The True Guru has truly given a child. The long-lived one has been born to this destiny.
He came to acquire a home in the womb, and his mother's heart is so very glad. A son is born - a devotee of the Creator of the Universe. This pre-ordained destiny has been revealed to all. In the tenth month, by the God's Order, the baby has been born. Sorrow is dispelled, and great joy has ensued. The companions blissfully sing the songs of the Guru's Bani. This is pleasing to the Eternal Akal Purkh. The vine has grown, and shall last for many generations. The Power of the Righteousness has been firmly established by the God. That which my mind wishes for, the True Guru has granted. I have become carefree, and I fix my attention on the One Akal Purkh. As the child places so much faith in his father, I speak as it pleases the Guru to have me speak.This is not a hidden secret; Guru Nanak, greatly pleased, has bestowed this gift.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 396

*2nd Sabd when Hargobind was afflicted by small pox’*

ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਰਖਵਾਲਾ ਹੋਆ ॥ ਧਾਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹਾਥ ਦੇ ਰਾਖਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਵਿਦੁ ਨਵਾ ਨਿਰੋਆ ॥ ਤਾਪੁ ਗਇਆ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਆਪਿ ਮਿਟਾਇਆ ਜਨ ਕੀ ਲਾਜ ਰਖਾਈ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਫਲ ਪਾਏ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਂਈ ॥ ਹਲਤੁ ਪਲਤੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦੋਵੈ ਸਵਾਰੇ ਹਮਰਾ ਗੁਣੁ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਨ ਬੀਚਾਰਿਆ ॥ ਅਟਲ ਬਚਨੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਫਲ ਕਰੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਧਾਰਿਆ ॥

_Merā saṯgur rakẖvālā ho▫ā. Ḏẖār kirpā parabẖ hāth ḏe rākẖi▫ā har goviḏ navā niro▫ā. Ŧāp ga▫i▫ā parabẖ āp mitā▫i▫ā jan kī lāj rakẖā▫ī. Sāḏẖsangaṯ ṯe sabẖ fal pā▫e saṯgur kai bal jāŉ▫ī. Halaṯ palaṯ parabẖ ḏovai savāre hamrā guṇ avguṇ na bīcẖāri▫ā. Atal bacẖan Nānak gur ṯerā safal kar masṯak ḏẖāri▫ā._

My True Guru is my Savior and Protector. Showering us with Its Mercy and Grace, God extended Its Hand, and saved Hargobind, who is now safe and secure. The fever is gone - God It self eradicated it, and preserved the honor of Its servant. I have obtained all blessings from the Company of the Holy; I am a sacrifice to the True Guru. God has saved me, both here and hereafter. God has not taken my merits and demerits into account. Your Word is eternal, O Guru Nanak; You placed Your Hand of blessing upon my forehead. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 620

I do not want my name in head lines or media but just asked a question-should there be no solid reply or the thread should be closed as unanswered. I had already gave my answer that the Sabd in Banno Bir is complete describing the puberty ceremony of Guru Arjan’s son. 

Rituals were being followed at that time as there was no way Gurus could have eradicated the centuries old customs in an instant. There is nothing here to get upset about it-just needs an open mind tyo accept.

Respectfully Submitted,

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI


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## pk70 (Apr 2, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> *Guru Arjan’s Autobiographical hymns regarding his son;*
> 
> Guru Arjan wrote about 30 full Sabds regarding Hargobind his only son and the one in question has only two lines which do not end in the name of Nanak. Is there any other example where Guru Arjan has written a Sabd ending with out the name of the Nanak? Here are two Sabds e.g. in favor of his son;
> 
> ...



*With all due respect Varinder S Grewal Ji,
You have a problem of "Me-ism", whenever some one writes in disagreement with you, either you feel attacked or criticized. Look at in Gyani ji's context, "seeders of doubts", you thought he wrote about you, he has to explain that it was not about you. I wrote above " to get line in head lines", you think, it is all about you. Take a deep breath, over come your "Me" and swallow the truth about Dhirmalye in context of "seeders of doubts" and Pashoura Singh in "to get in headliners". By the way, who is provider of means of living to you? I doubt there is any one but there is or was one boss of Pashoura Singh, then why your "Me" jumped in? You need relaxing*.
*I shall comment on your Gurbani ddistorting later on, just wait, I hope you will be relaxed and debate that issue too.*


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 3, 2009)

*Read in bigger font at *
http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Articles/114
*Dr. McLeod and His Followers Don't Understand Gurbani*

*ਸਿੰਘ ਸਭਾ ਇੰਟਰਨੈਸ਼ਨਲ*




Dr. Pashaura Singh's Research at a Glance
In 1975 Dr. Mcleod in his book, "Evolution of Sikh Community" started a debate on the text of Sikh Scripture and floated the idea that the Kartarpur bir must be a first draft, subsequently amended by the Guru himself (p.77).
It was done fully knowing the facts brought out in the book Kartarpuri Bir De Darshan, by Professor / Bhai Jodh Singh (Former Vice-Chancellor, Punjabi University, Patiala), published in 1968. Professor Jodh Singh reviewed the book “Evolution of the Sikh Community “ and answered the textual questions raised by McLeod (See his Review published in the Appendix A pages 81-83) of the book by Sardar Daljeet Singh, "Authenticity of Kartarpuri Bir". Published by Punjabi University in 1987.
In spite of the above documented evidence, Dr. Mcleod and Pashaura Singh initiated the research on the text and history of the Sikh Scripture in the Department of Religious Studies at Toronto in 1987. They introduced MS 1245 (Manu Script 1245) from Guru Nanak Dev University and relied heavily on it without establishing its authenticity. The thesis, The Text and the Meaning of the Adi Granth, that Pashaura Singh completed in 1991 under the supervision of Dr. Mcleod and Dr. Joseph T. O'Connell did not answer the following questions: (a) How they came to know about the MS 1245 at GNDU? (b) Who wrote two articles under the authorship of Dr. Lohelin while he was totally disabled and that too after his death? For details see Chapter 6, "Manipulation and Deception" in Discovering Mcleod and His Works by Dr. Baldev Singh.
Pashaura Singh faithfully picked up the idea of first draft floated by his mentor and went on to prove that MS 1245 is an early draft of the Adi Granth on which Guru Arjan Dev has worked to finally produce the text of the Adi Granth (Thesis, p.24).
On the basis of questionable documents, he questioned the history, originality and authenticity of the text of Sri Granth Sahib. About 30 Sikh Scholars in the book "Planned attack on Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Academics or Blasphemy" (Biodata on pages 323-326, also click on Authors of Global Sikh Studies) presented their critique on the research done by Dr. Pashaura Singh on Guru Granth Sahib.
For details of this planned attack, read the introduction pages 1-39 .
Opinion of Dr. Bishan Singh Samundri (Former Vice-Chancellor, GNDU, Amritsar): "It is indeed very unfortuante that Pashaura Singh's attack on the authenticity of Guru Granth Sahib is sought to be based on a manuscript called a draft by Guru Arjun Dev, when its text bears in its contents the date of demise of the Fifth Master." See Foreword in the book, "Planned Attack on Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahb: Academics or Blasphemy".
Opinion of Justice Ram Singh Bindra (Retd., High Court of Assam and Nagaland): (The Book Planned Attack) "is a very welcome contribution exposing the ugly and sinister designs of the group ending in the thesis of Pashaura Singh aimed at eroding the originality and authenticity of Guru Granth Sahib as is evidenced by the Kartarpuri Bir". See the back cover page of "Planned Attack on Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Academics or Blasphemy", for his full statement.
Professor Pritam Singh (65 years experience of teaching and analyzing Sikh Manuscripts) proved that Guru Arjan never used Goindwal Pothi (Ahyapur Pothi) for the preparation or a source for Aad Guru Granth in 1604 as suggested by Dr. Pashaura Singh in his book Guru Granth Sahib Cannon Meaning and Authority (p.41) that the text of the extant Goindval Pothis belongs to the original Goindwal Pothis. (See Ahyapur Pothi (Goindwal Pothi).
Analysis of Dr. Balwant Singh Dhillon, Head Dept. of Guru Nanak Studies at GNDU (25 years experience of teaching and analyzing old Sikh manuscripts) proved in his book, "Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition" , on pages 89-182 that Goindwal Pothi as suggested by Dr. Pashaura Singh, was never used by Guru Arjan in the preparation or as a source of Aad Guru Granth in 1604. Various forms of Mul Mantar in Goindwal Pothi (see page 135), Arrangement of hymns (see page 149-168), Missing Compositions (see pages 169-172), Kachi Bani or Apocryphal Writings (see pages 173-182)
In 1991 while writing his thesis, Pashaura Singh presented MS 1245 as an early draft of the Adi Granth. Struck by the criticism by the Sikh scholars, now he calls it an incomplete draft on which Guru Arjan worked to produce the final version (p.46). Analysis of Dr. Balwant Singh Dhillon, Head Dept. of Guru Nanak Studies at GNDU proved in "Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition" pages 182-258 that MS 1245 as suggested by Dr. Pashaura Singh was never used by Guru Arjan in the preparation or as a source of Aad Guru Granth in 1604. Absent Hymns in MS 1245 (see pages 244-245), Hymns recorded twice in MS 1245 (see page 246), Kachi Bani or Apochryphal Writings in MS 1245 (see pages 247-258)
For authenticity of any document following FOUR academic parameters must be established before its use:
Date of Document (When it was Written): To establish his finding of early draft in the form of MS 1245 and to prove its early origin, in 1991 Pashaura Singh went on to mislead the scholars that the last date (Samat 1663 Jeth Sudi 4 i.e. June 1606). In the table of death dates has been inserted later on (Thesis, p.28). Now he calls that the whole table of death dates has been inserted later on (Book, p.51). He has come to the conclusion that MS 1245 was completed in 1599 and it is the same document which Guru Arjan had shown to emperor Akbar in 1598 (Book, pp.45-46). All these are wild conjectures. There is no external or internal evidence to prove them. The internal evidence of the manuscript on folio 1255 clearly shows the death dates of the first five Sikh gurus are recorded by the primary scribe with the same pen and in the same shade of ink. It proves that this document was written after 1606, the year when the fifth guru had expired. Please see Plate XIII on page 235 of the book, "Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition".
History of the Document: Pashaura Singh did not go into the history of the document. The dealer who sold this manuscript to GNDU made a statement at Sri Akal Takht on May 5, 1993 that he bought this manuscript from a waste paper dealer going on a cycle in the state of Rajasthan, India in 1979-1980. He also confessed that the note given on the front of the manuscript in relation to the Hymn of Baba Buddha was not based on any research. For details see "Statement of the Chawlas at Sri Akal Takht Sahib" on page 243. Therefore, it is clear that there is no known history of the document prior to 1979-1980. Dr. Pashaura Singh completely ignored to find the history of the document. He failed to note that the alleged hand of Baba Buddha recorded on a separate paper has been pasted on the initial folio of MS 1245 (See Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition, p.208). Ignoring all these facts, Pashaura Singh still puts MS 1245 in the custody of Baba Buddha and his descendents (Book, pp.42-43).
Who is the Scribe : Pashaura Singh simply conjectured but was unable to identify who was the real scribe of MS1245. In 1991, Pashaura Singh assumed that the scribe of MS 1245 was a close associate of Guru Amar Das possibly Bhai Gurdas (Thesis, p.28). At that time he suggested that Bhai Gurdas may have further improved his hand-writing by the time he wrote the final draft of the Adi Granth (Thesis, p.26). Now in his book he states that the entire writing work of MS 1245 has been done by one hand only (Book, p.43). All these are very immature statements which have been made to convince the scholars to drive on the highway of textual criticism of Sikh Scripture without any honesty and responsibility. Even a novice in the field of manuscriptology can judge that more than tow scribes have been employed to prepare MS 1245 (See Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition, plates X, XI, XII on pp. 231, 232, 233).
Internal Inconsistency : The internal evidence of MS 1245 clearly shows the inclusion of a large number of Apocryphal Writings or Kachi Bani attributed to the Sikh Gurus, (See Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition pp. 247-258). What is the source of these writings? Who were the authors of these writings? Why have such a large number of them found their way into MS 1245? Why would Guru Arjan compose Kachi-Bani to exclude it later on? Why would Guru Arjan compile a document full of Kachi-Bani and would show it to emperor Akbar? Why would Bhai Gurdas write a manuscript full of Kachi-Bani? All these are very important issues which Pashaura Singh has very conveniently skipped over to say that it will be discussed in a separate study (Book p. 46). He has constructed a genealogy of manuscripts to establish a direct relationship between the text of Goindwal pothis, MS 1245 and Kartarpuri Bir. In doing so he blatantly ignores the textual variants which prove that all these manuscripts have not descended one after another (see Pritam Singh, Ahiyapur wali Pothi and Balwant Singh Dhillon Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition, pp. 209-227).
Pashaura Singh failed to establish, based upon the above academic criteria, the authenticity of MS 1245 before its use in his research work . Not only this, he flouts the norms of historical criticism to establish the early origin of MS 1245. For example (a) He says there are certain instances of recording of only the opening lines of Guru Arjan’s hymns followed by blank spaces and says these hymns were not available to the scribe in their final form (Book p. 45). Would it be possible for anyone to believe that Guru Arjan who prepared this manuscript has no access to his own writings? (b) MS 1245 does not contain Bhagat-Bani. Pashaura Singh claims that Guru Arjan’s primary concern was to fix the hymns of the Sikh Gurus first and then to deal with issue of the Bhagats. He makes a wild claim that Guru Arjan was collecting the hymns of the Bhagats in another volume to include them later in a final recension (Book pp. 50,51). Where is this volume? He has no answer. Perhaps he will present it at some later stage. (c) MS 1245 contains only the sawwayas of Kalh Bhat. Pashaura Singh remarks that by the time this manuscript was written some of the bards had not yet appeared in the Guru’s court (Book p. 51). In doing so he betrays lack of knowledge that the Bhats led by Bhikha had already appeared in the court of Guru Amardas and their sawwayas in praise of Gurus are well preserved in Guru Granth Sahib. (d) Regarding the movement of MS 1245 he ignores the notes put on different folios by Piar Singh (See Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition, plate VII, p. 186). (e) Pashaura Singh acknowledges the fact that the text of Japji in Guru Granth Sahib has come from the copy of Guru Ram Das (Book p. 283). But he contradicts himself when on the basis of MS 1245 he alleges Guru Ram Das and Guru Arjan for making modification and revising the text of Japji and its Moolmantra (Book pp. 85-96). (f) In order to confuse the history of the text Pashaura Singh states that during the 18 th and early 19 th century no one version of the Adi Granth was accepted by all the Sikhs (Book pp. 224, 225). To create history of the text he visualizes Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s role to prepare an authorized version of the Sikh Scripture (Book p. 227). All these are sweeping statements which are without any valid and authoritative evidence. (g) He also concludes that the Dasam Granth enjoyed an equal status with the Adi Granth in the 18 th and 19 th centuries. He says, both the Granths were installed side by side on the same platform (Book p.279). This is again a statement without any evidence. It dilutes the authority of Guru Granth Sahib as a sole canon and scripture of the Sikhs. (h) Pashuara Singh pleads that Dr. McLeod has revised his view on the issue of so called hymn in Ramkali mode which is found in the Banno recension (Book p.122). This is again a claim without any truth as Dr. McLeod’s omnibus volume (1999) carries the same statement that he had made in 1975.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the only authentic source of Sikh Studies. Prof. Sahib Singh has proved through the internal evidence of SGGS, "Guru Nanak had in possession all compositions of Bhagats and all compositions of the first four gurus were in possession with Guru Arjan Dev when he compiled Guru Granth Sahib in 1604") Printable version of this book is available at the Sikh Research and Education Center's site.
Dr. Gurmel Singh Sidhu, a known researcher and eminent Punjabi writer has also proved through internal evidence of SGGS that Guru Arjan never used the sources suggested by Dr. Pashaura Singh for the compilation of Aad Guru Granth in 1604. See CONTROVERSY ABOUT THE COMPILATION OF AAD GURU GRANTH: A DISCUSSION IN FUTILE - Dr. Gurmel Singh Sidhu [please use PunjabiFonts.zip to install and view this powerpoint correctly] His comprehensive analysis showed that "Pashaura Singh's Ph.D. thesis is full of factual mistakes on the basis of which he drew conclusions regarding the authenticity of the Aad Guru Granth Sahib. His data does not yield results, rather the results are superimposed on the data. It seems that his conclusions were preconceived and the data was concocted to comply with the desired results. See pages 63-84 in "Planned Attack on Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib : Academics or Blasphemy."
On June 25, 1994, Pashaura Singh appeared before Sri Akal Takhat Sahib and accepted the Tankah for his wrong conclusions and promised to revise his thesis. Later on he wrote “… I appeared before the Akal Takhat as a “devout Sikh”, not as a scholar. I had made it quite clear to the Jathedar Manjit Singh at that time and he agreed with me. Anyone who has read my book The Guru Granth Sahib: Canon, Meaning and Authority* (Oxford University Press, 2000) will know that I did not compromise my academic freedom.” (Letter of Dr. Pashaura Singh dated 21-3-2003 to S. Jagpal Singh Tiwana on internet)
Sikh Scholars and the Coalition of Sikh Gurudwaras of California are of the consensus of opinion that Pashaura Singh's research clearly implies that the compilation of Aad Guru Granth in 1604 by Guru Arjan was based on unauthentic sources, suggesting that first four gurus received a revelation of Kachi Bani / Apocryphal Hymns which were edited by Guru Arjan in 1604. His research work based upon unauthentic documents challenges the revelatory nature and therefore the authenticity and originality of the Dhur Ki bani. This implies that the tenants of the Sikhism are derived from Kachi Bani which is highly uncalled for. ( Pashaura Singh Turns His Back To Akal Takht - Sikhs Appeal To Akal Takht Jathedar published in India Journal, June 24, 2005, and India Post, July 1, 2005, Indian Newspapers in California)
SGPC Forms Academic Committee in July 2005, Jathedar Akal Takhat asks Pashaura Singh nine academic questions, but receives no response. On 01/17/06 Sri Akal Takhat, issues Gurmata to Sikh Sangat worldwide.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 3, 2009)

Thanks.
Virinder


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## spnadmin (Apr 3, 2009)

This is how the episode ended according to the synopsis of SSI, which forum member Singh ji has generously shared with the forum.

_On June 25, 1994, Pashaura Singh appeared before Sri Akal Takhat Sahib and accepted the Tankah for his wrong conclusions and promised to revise his thesis. Later on he wrote “… I appeared before the Akal Takhat as a “devout Sikh”, not as a scholar. I had made it quite clear to the Jathedar Manjit Singh at that time and he agreed with me. Anyone who has read my book The Guru Granth Sahib: Canon, Meaning and Authority* (Oxford University Press, 2000) will know that I did not compromise my academic freedom.” (Letter of Dr. Pashaura Singh dated 21-3-2003 to S. Jagpal Singh Tiwana on internet)_.

Let us stipulate that Dr. Pashaura Singh agreed he was in error and also did not feel that his academic freedom was compromised. Some would like to know more about the specifics of the Banno Bir purely for the sake of historical interest. No reason to get carried away. Everyone who accepts the authority of the Kartarpur Bir will continue in their belief, including me. Those who are skeptical will either continue to be skeptical -- or they may even have a change of mind, and clear their doubts. Sikhism is *unlike* the Roman Catholic Church,  which has a special office with the sole purpose of stifling "unacceptable" material--  called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (formerly known as the Spanish Inquisition).


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## pk70 (Apr 4, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> T
> 
> Let us stipulate that Dr. Pashaura Singh agreed he was in error and also did feel that his academic freedom was compromised. Some would like to know more about the specifics of the Banno Bir purely for the sake of historical interest. No reason to get carried away. Everyone who accepts the authority of the Kartarpur Bir will continue in their belief, including me. Those who are skeptical will either continue to be skeptical -- or they may even have a change of mind, and clear their doubts. Sikhism is *unlike* the Roman Catholic Church,  which has a special office with the sole purpose of stifling "unacceptable" material--  called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (formerly known as the Spanish Inquisition).



*I agree but there should a substance to look into. How come only Bhai Bano story interests them?
* *The funny thing is that these skeptical people say about  rituals  mentioned in Bano-Bir, they think these rituals were not eradicated by Guru himself( Laughable), there are many Guru Vaakas  by Fifth Nanak in which rituals are condemned.(SGGS 216)*
*ਗਉੜੀ ਮਾਲਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ [/FONT]**॥[/FONT] **ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਬਿਰਥੇ [/FONT]**॥[/FONT] **ਜਪ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਣੇ ਇਹਿ ਓਰੈ ਮੂਸੇ ॥[/FONT]੧॥[/FONT] ਰਹਾਉ [/FONT]**॥[/FONT] *
*Ga▫oṛī mālā mėhlā 5.[/FONT]   **Har bin avar kir▫ā birthe.[/FONT]   **Jap ṯap sanjam karam kamāṇe ihi orai mūse. ||1|| rahā▫o.[/FONT]   *
*Gauri Mala 5th Guru.[/FONT] **Without remembering God, all other deeds are vain.[/FONT] **The performance of lip recitation, penance, self-mortification, and other rites, all this is plundered near at hand at hand. Pause.[/FONT] *
*ਅਵਰ = [/FONT]ਹੋਰ।ਕ੍ਰਿਆ = [/FONT]ਕਰਮ।ਸੰਜਮ = [/FONT]ਮਨਨੂੰਵਿਕਾਰਾਂਵਲੋਂਰੋਕਣਦੇਜਤਨ।ਇਹਿ = {'[/FONT]ਇਹ' [/FONT]ਤੋਂਬਹੁ-[/FONT]ਵਚਨ}[/FONT]।[/FONT]ਓਰੈ = [/FONT]ਉਰੇਉਰੇਹੀ।ਮੂਸੇ = [/FONT]ਠੱਗੇਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ, [/FONT]ਲੁੱਟੇਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ।[/FONT]੧।ਰਹਾਉ।

[/FONT]*([/FONT]ਹੇਭਾਈ!) [/FONT]ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਦੇਸਿਮਰਨਤੋਂਬਿਨਾਹੋਰਸਾਰੇ ([/FONT]ਮਿਥੇਹੋਏਧਾਰਮਿਕ) [/FONT]ਕੰਮਵਿਅਰਥਹਨ *  When Guru sits on a seat and preaches against rituals, how would people stay around  Guru when they see rituals being performed in his house? It just doesn’t add up. Dr Sahib Singh ji has done a logical analysis proving that the story of Bhai Bano wrong since it doesn’t measure up to the truth. Shouldn’t we listen to above Guru Vaakas by him instead of chasing  the claimed missing lines. Most of the Gurbani is not even understood by these so called scholars and these lines are the solution of their appetite. Why they are not satisfied with Guru’s own words where he values rituals nothing literally?   Is the whole concept of ritualism in SGGS is changed due to a few lines found in Bhai Bano-Bir? As put it by Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, it is just a tale of deception started from Guru Times and still  it continues. *


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## spnadmin (Apr 4, 2009)

That is a reasonable question pk70 ji. Here is the answer. You missed the birth of the thread because you were away for a while. This thread was split from the Sword and Shabad thread because it was a digression from the main topic. So this thread was created to study the Banno Bir in some detail. That is how it got started.


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## spnadmin (Apr 4, 2009)

Then the server went down last night and I could not finish.

Gyani ji also said this: _Dr Baldev Singh, Dr Mann etc have very ably answered the MCLeod Group. One should read BOTH Groups to arrive at a balanced view. ( Interestingly the SANT BABAS Group couldnt arrive at any written arguments ( as usual)...their approach is sabre rattling/noisy demonstrations/book burning ) During the Panch Khalsa times also they kept aloof....and left it to the likes of Dr Ganda Singh and others to defend Sikh History etc. through well written arguments._ 

That is where we are in the discussion. Once the thread was started, then a number of us got very interested in the purely historical content of the controversy and that has kept the discussion going. In my case it has led me to a fair amount of Internet research on the controversy because it fills in some gaps in my understanding of what started all of this back in 1987. Now I have a better understanding of Dr. Sahib Singh's point of view but also what exactly McLeod was thinking and how he came to his conclusions.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 4, 2009)

*Singh Sabha International Canada - Articles*
*'The Making of Sikh Scripture': Gurinder Singh Mann abets Adverse Controversies*

*Charnjit Singh Bal*

*‘The Making of Sikh Scripture’: Gurinder Singh Mann Abets Adverse Controversies besetting Sikhism*
Charnjit Singh Bal​The resumé of *Dr. Gurinder Singh Mann’s* qualifications and credentials states that he graduated in 1965 CE with Master’s Degree in English from Baring Union Christian College in Batala, Punjab; India, earned his second MA in English in 1975 CE from University of Kent at Canterbury, UK, and Master’s Degree in Theology Studies from Harvard University. He topped his enviable resumé with Ph. D. in religion from Columbia University. The Oxford University Press, that has published Sikh Studies Ph. D. theses of *Drs. William Hew. McLeod, Harjot Singh Oberoi, Pashaura Singh, Louis E. Fenech, *and *Doris Jakobsh*, et al, published his*‘The Making of Sikh Scripture’* dissertation, in 2001 CE.

All these Western Universities-groomed scholars and academicians owe, directly or indirectly, their Sikh Studies Doctorates to the ordained Christian Reverend and foreign Missionary-turned Sikh Studies radical scholar Dr. William Hewat McLeod’s academic tutelage. Harjot S. Oberoi got his Ph. D. from the Australian National University had Dr. McLeod as his associate supervisor.Pashaura Singh and Louis E. Fenech were students of W. H. McLeod when he was appointed as a visiting Commonwealth Scholar, University of Toronto in early 1990s. Doris Jakobsh was a student of Harjot Singh Oberoi, when he was Punjabi Language and Sikh Studies chair at UBC, Vancouver, Canada.
Dr. Mann’s graduation from Baring Union Christian College in Batala, Punjab, India, in the year 1965 CE is noteworthy, because that is when Dr. W. H. McLeod, who got his Ph. D. in Sikh Studies for a joke from *School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), University of London,* UK, joined the teaching staff there. [See Dr. McLeod’s ‘*Discovering the Sikhs, Autobiography of a Historian’*, p.39
His affiliation with the above academic clique is evident from his published thesis ‘*The Making of Sikh Scripture’,* a stereotypical dissertation, constructed, partly, on data derived from the unauthentic quasi-Sikh literature and grapevine traditions, that are mostly incompatible with the Sikhism’s authentic scriptural anthology, history, pragmatic religiosity and egalitarian ideology, packs cynicism and skepticism; and abets untenable contentions and adverse controversies besetting Sikhism. Early on in his dissertation *‘The Making of Sikh Scripture’, *Gurinder Singh Mann quotes and controverts Dr. W. H. McLeod’s view.

W. H. McLeod has systematically presented the view that Guru Nanak was a participant in the medieval sant tradition, whose constituency of holy people believed in one nonincarnated God and preached a religion of interiority through meditation on the divine name. In this beatific vision all external forms of religious life including institutional authority, scriptural texts, communal centers, and so on were emphatically rejected. Simply put, the belief system to which Guru Nanak belonged does not jibe with the founding of an organized community. [W. H. McLeod, ‘The Evolution of Sikh Community’, p. 8] The Making of Sikh Scripture, [henceforth T.M.O.S.S.], p. 6
It is hard to accept the idea that Guru Nanak first rejected the institution of religious authority, only to reverse his stance and ensconce himself as the chief authority figure at Kartarpur. Nor is there any substance to the argument that Guru Nanak did not enjoy any power within the community during this period. His careful attempt to maintain the office of the guru in appointing his successor at the time of his death is evidence of the seriousness with which he took the institutional authority associated with the office. T.M.O.S.S., p. 8
Obviously, Dr. Gurinder Singh Mann is unaware that Sikhism is a lay religion, i.e. there is no conventional, institutionalized hierarchy of dogmatic ecclesiastics. However, there is an honorific position for the savant Sikh preachers. Guru Nanak designated local preachers during his four protracted odysseys and Guru Amar Das appointed resident Sikh apostles, called Masunds, whose functions were to preach Sikhism and liaison between the congregation and the Guru. Guru Gobind Singh discontinued the practice when the Masunds turned authoritarian ecclesiastics and corrupt.

*ADVERSE CONTROVERSIES, CONTENTIONS; RHETORIC*
*MANUSCRIPTS; ANTECEDENTS; ORIGINS, BRANCHES, COPIES*
In the second section I turn to the Adi Granth itself. Here I reconstruct its production in a way that radically revises the current understanding of the surrounding time and circumstances, as well as the relationship between its contents and those of its antecedents, such as the Kartarpur Pothi and other seventeenth-century manuscripts. T.M.O.S.S., p.69

*BHAI BANNO BIR/KANPUR POTHI*
Writing in 1770s *Sarupdas Bhalla* was the first author to report the variations between the text of the Kartarpur Pothi and the manuscript prepared by Bhai Banno. Bhalla narrates that soon after the inscription of the Kartarpur Pothi, Bhai Banno obtained Guru Arjan’s permission to take it to his village with the intent to prepare a copy for himself. Guru Arjan, Arjan however, sent for the Pothi, and it had to be returned quickly. Somehow Bhai Banno managed to have a copy made, but because of its hasty compilation organizational discrepancies crept into the text. The newly compiled manuscript, along with the original, was presented to Guru Arjan, who gladly confirmed its authenticity by putting his attestation on the manuscript. Bhalla calls it the *Khara recension* (Khare ki misal), naming after Bhai Banno’s village Khara Mangat and distinguishing it from the Kartarpur Pothi (Bhai Gurdas ki missal). Since the manuscript in is now at Kanpur, we called it the *Kanpur Pothi* in chapter2. Ibid, p.69-70

Bhalla’s discernment of differences between the two early manuscripts was endorsed by later writers, but their description of circumstances of the origin of the Kanpur Pothi (as well as the nature of its differences from Kartarpur Pothi) underwent important changes. According to the Sri Gurbilas Patshahi 6 and Sri Gurpratap Suraj Guru Arjan asked Bhai Banno to take the Kartarpur Pothi to Lahore for binding. During this trip to Lahore, Bhai Banno arranged to have a copy made without the prior permission of the guru. There were differences in contents between the original and the copy, and these had resulted from Bhai Banno’s deliberate effort to introduce into the sacred corpus some apocryphal hymns.

*Sahib Singh* dismissed earlier accounts of the compilation of the Kartarpur Pothi as fanciful and offered a new hypothesis: the Kartarpur Pothi and the Kanpur Pothi were initially identical, but in the decades after the death of Tegh Bahadur spurious compositions were inserted into the seventeenth-century manuscripts. Ibid, p.71

Building on the work of Sahib Singh, *Pashaura Singh* went a step further. He viewed the rise of both the Kanpur and the Lahore families of manuscripts as part of conspiracy that included not only the dissenting groups within the early Sikh community but also the Mughal administration at Lahore. Pashaura Singh is fully convinced that all variations in the early manuscripts were “interpolations” that resulted from conscious “tampering” with the original text carried out to confuse the message of the Sikh gurus. Ibid, p.71
Rejecting the traditional description of the seventeenth–century manuscripts, *Piar Singh* argued for the presence of seven primary branches, some of them with further internal subdivisions. Ibid, p.71

The existing understanding of the history of Sikh scripture is constructed around the belief that seventeenth-century manuscripts fell into three groups: the exact copies of the Kartarpur Pothi, representing the authoritative line, and two branches following the Kanpur and *Lahore Pothi*. The first striking aspect of the data available in the manuscripts mentioned below is that they fall not into three but two broad groups: manuscripts 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 19, 20, 22, and 24 follow what is known in Sikh tradition as the Lahore branch, and manuscripts 1, 2, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 25, 26, and 27 represent the Khara Mangat branch. (Manuscripts numbered 14 and 21 do not fit into these two groups and need special attention). Ibid, p.71

The traditional belief that the Kartarpur Pothi as it stands today produced a branch of manuscripts which culminated in the text of Adi Granth confronts the unavailability of even a single manuscript that can be considered its exact copy. This inconvenient fact has evoked interesting responses. For instance, *Sahib Singh *argues that soon after the Kartarpur Pothi was compiled, it was put up for public display at the Darbar Sahib, Amritsar and so could not be made available for copying. Ibid, p.71-2

The existing discussion on this issue centers on two interrelated assumptions: that the text of the Kartarpur Pothi culminated in the Adi Granth with the addition of the hymns of Guru Tegh Bahadur; and that the Kanpur Pothi, containing a set of apocryphal compositions, gave rise to a distinct branch of seventeenth-century manuscripts. Both these assumptions, in my view, are erroneous. Ibid, 73-4
There are two views regarding the relationship between the *Amritsar Pothi* and the *Kartarpur Pothi* in existing literature. As referred to before, *Charan Singh* traces the origin of this branch to the Kartarpur Pothi. *Piar Singh* rejects this relationship and views line as an independent attempt at compile of the Sikh text. Neither of them has developed their respective arguments in any detail. Ibid, p.75
Finally, an entry recorded in the *Amritsar Pothi* (folio 591) offers critical evidence to support my argument. This has two parts: the first contains the death dates of the first four gurus and the second goes as follows:

In the presence of the Guru Arjan, the manuscript was compiled. It was inscribed by Bhai Bura Sandhu in the presence of the fifth Guru. Bhai Milkha of Peshawar commissioned its inscription. He who will come to the presence of the manuscript will see the body of Guru Nanak. Forgive [my] flaws and omissions. God! The true guru! [The manuscript] is completed in Samat 1662 (1605 C.E.) Ibid, p.78
*G. B. Singh* accepted 1605 as the date of preparation of the *Amritsar Pothi* and named it after Bura Sandhu its supposed scribe. *Piar Singh* continues to associate the manuscript with Bura Sandhu but argues that the entry is false and was inserted later to increase the significance of the Amritsar Pothi by tracing its origin to the time of Guru Arjan.

I argue that this entry does not record the date of preparation of the Amritsar Pothi as G. B. Singh claims, neither is it a deliberate attempt to falsify its date of compilation as Piar Singh believes, but rather represents a typical instance in which the scribe of the *Amritsar Pothi* reproduced the colophon recorded in the source from which he copied (a manuscript prepared in 1605 by Bura Sandhu). If this *line of reasoning* is correct, the Amritsar Pothi becomes a copy of the Kartarpur Pothi compiled in 1605. Ibid, p.78

The *Kanpur Pothi*, the earliest extant manuscript of this branch, is dated 1642 but contains no information about its place of compilation. The Sikh sources and family traditions of the manuscript’s custodians attribute its compilation to Bhai Banno.

There are serious problems with the traditional explanation of manuscript’s origin. The date of 1642 does not correspond to the time of Guru Arjan. Bhai Banno’s name does not appear in the list of the important Sikhs of the period in the writings of Bhai Gurdas, nor is the name of Khara Mangat included in the list of the seats of regional centers of the community in the sixteenth century. Ibid, p.79
A note in the *Patna Pothi* (1692) confirms that the importance of the Kartarpur Pothi as the original document was fully recognized in the community, and a manuscript that was copied from it or was collated and corrected with it enjoy special status. Chaupa Singh, the first author to refer to the compilation of the Adi Granth, reports that Guru Gobind Singh sought to borrow the Kartarpur Pothi from Dhirmal’s family in 1678 but did not succeed. …. Kesar Singh Chibber, writing a few decades later, contends that after this denial of access to the Kartarpur Pothi, the guru used another manuscript at Anandpur to create Adi Granth. Ibid, p.82-3

The view that has dominated Sikh thinking since the seventeenth century, however, places the event at Damdama, Bhatinda, in 1705 – 1706. *Giani Gian Singh* expanded this tradition to claim that Guru Gobind Singh, unable to access the Kartarpur Pothi, and seemingly with no other written document around, dictated the complete text of the Adi Granth from memory to *Bhai Mani Singh*, who served as the amanuensis. Ibid, p.83

*G. B. Singh* located a *manuscript extant at Dhaka* prepared in 1675 (Samat 1732, miti agahan vadi), which contained all of Guru Tegh Bahadur’s hymns recoded in their appropriate rag sections. Ibid, p.83
*MS 1192* inscribed in 1674 also contains the complete corpus of Guru Tegh Bahadur’s hymns. On its opening folio, the* invocation* is followed by a note that reads, “This attestation was obtained by presenting [the manuscript to the ninth master, in the presence of the whole congregation, on Samat 1731, the full moon day of Jeth”
*Piar Singh* argues that the dates, the invocation, and the note recoded underneath in MS 1192 are all fake. Ibid, p.84

*CYNICAL, SKEPTICAL ASPERSIONS, INSINUATIONS, INNUENDOS*
The Sikhs issued open invitation to both the Hindu and Muslim religious elite to avail themselves of the shelter offered by the guru if they wanted liberation. The words of Guru Amardas to the Brahmins were clear: “Your faith in God can work only if you listen to the advice of guru.” (Brahamu Bindihe te Brahamana je chalahe satgur bhae. M3, AG 849-850). Since the guru lived under Islamic rule, his invitation to Sufis to join the Sikh fold and submit to his leadership was strikingly bold: “O Shekh! Leave violence and with the fear of God control the inner confusion. Many have attained liberation by fear of the guru.” (Sekha andarahu joru chhadi tu bhau kari jhali gavae. Gur kai bhai kete nistare bhai vich nirbhau pae. M3, AG, 551). He further stated: “O Shekh Bring your mind to focus on the One. Discard your futile pursuit and realize the word of the guru. If you follow the guru,…you will gain respect in the divine court.” (Sekha chauchakia chauvaia ehu manu ikatu ghari ani. Ehar tehar chhadi tu gur ka sabadu pahchanu. Satgur agai dhai pau,…ta dargah pavahe manu. (M3, AG, 646). Ibid, p.13
According to Guru Arjan, God himself had created a firm foundation of the Sikh community on which it was now thriving (Abichal niv dhari Gur Nanak nit nit charai savai, M5, AG, 500-501). Ibid, p.14
The bath in the holy pool, according to Guru Arjan, washed off previously committed sins (Ramdas sarovar nate. Sabhi utre pap kamate, M5, AG, 625) Ibid, p.14
The above passages expose Dr. Mann’s cynical mindset. Gurbani verse, from Guru Arjan’s hymn, that he references and distorts to insinuate that ‘according to Guru Arjan, bath in holy pool washed off previously committed sins’, metaphorically means, ‘those who recite God’s Name [praise], in the congregation of devotees of Ram [all-pervading God], cleanse themselves of past sinful mentality.
The illegible transliteration and misinterpretation of the select Gurbani verses, [translate in isolation], exhibit his inept or dubious scholarship. The Gurmukhi diacritics aunkurd and Siari in the Gurmukhi words accord a distinct meaning or grammatical function to a word. For instance, words Bgq, Bgqu and Bgiq may have different meaning, but all are pronounced Bhagat and transliterated as such.
His innuendo that the Sikh Gurus professed that God himself laid Sikhism’s firm foundation, and that they exhorted Hindu and Muslim clergy to seek Sikh Guru’s shelter to redeem themselves, evinces his askance view of Gurbani. There is no explicit or implicit reference to the Sikh Guru. ‘Guru’ is Sanskrit word. Literally, Gu means darkness, ignorance and Ru means enlightener. Unbeknown to Dr. Mann, Sikh scripture’s co-authors, Gurus and Hindu and Muslim bhagats, addressed God too as Guru or Satguru. Its usage is not exclusive to Sikh vocabulary. It has been in use since primeval times as a revered appellation for the spiritual guide in all the Eastern religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sufism, et al.
Jo Gur dussay waat, marida joliay. Sheikh Farid [1173-1266 CE], AG, p.488, 
Satgur béri (bérdi) furi (furdi) khaloté, main kéon läee a déri. 15, Bullay Shah
*MS 1245: *Pashaura Singh and Piar Singh were the first scholars to focus on the importance of this undated manuscript in the history of Sikh scripture. The manuscript was acquired by the Guru Nanak Dev University in March 1987 from the Chawla brothers, art and manuscript dealers in Amritsar. … A note appended to the manuscript by the dealers at the time of its sale provides no details of its earlier ownership, and the Chawlas have refused to reveal any information about manuscript’s location prior to its purchase by the university. Ibid, p.52

According to Balwant Singh Dhillon, the making of MS 1245 resulted from an independent effort but with a well-defined objective of creating “a new seat of Gurudom.” For him, MS 1245 represents a parallel scriptural text developed by descendants of Prithi Chand. He ties his argument with tradition that Miharban prepared and sent volumes of sacred writings to distant Sikh congregations. By presenting evidence which, he claims, suggests affinity between MS 1245 and the literature produced by this family, he argues that MS 1245 belongs to them as well. Ibid, p.57-8

*DUBIOUS HYPOTHESIS*
I suggest a different hypothesis to explain the origin of MS 1245. As mentioned earlier, the *hymns of the Bhagats are not included in this manuscript*. The crucial significance of MS 1245 lies not in its origin as an independent effort nor in its serving as a draft for the Kartarpur Pothi, but rather in its manifesting a composition of Sikh scripture different from the type represented in the Goindval Pothis and the Kartarpur Pothi. *MS 1245 *seems to have been compiled at a time when the earlier conception of Sikh scripture was being reconsidered. Ibid, p.58
It is true that Guru Arjan held the Bhagats in high esteem and portrayed them in his hymns as a paradigm of successful devotion. Yet the absence of the hymns of non-Sikhs from MS 1245 may suggest that at one time, around 1600, the guru considered dropping them altogether, or at least separating them from the compositions of the Sikhs and appending them as a distinct unit toward the end of the scriptural text. Emerging from this mode of thinking, MS 1245 seems to draw a line between the Sikh community-the gurus and their court poets who were part of the Sikh fold-and the others, Hindus and Muslims. Ibid, p.59

*INSINUATIONS, INNUENDOS*
*BHAGAT BANI: *Inclusion into the Sikh Scripture
Purpose, Selection, Corrections, Status
In this context, the presence of bhagat bani in the Sikh text indicates humble submission on part of the Bhagats-both Hindu and Muslim-to the *superiority of the nascent Sikh tradition*. According to Sikh view, the Bhagats came to Guru Arjan seeking to place their compositions in the sacred Sikh text, and the guru in his grace accepted the hymns of those deserving honor of becoming part of it. Ibid, p.109

In my view, the criterion for ascertaining the identity of those brought the divine message to humanity, however, was restrictive. For Guru Amardas, these had to be people who shared the monotheistic vision and an understanding of human life with its social and ethical obligations. Because the *Sikh revelation is authentic*, only hymns conforming to the Sikh belief in unity of God could be accepted as embodying the truth. Ibid, p.110

The fact that the scripture of an eminent Sikh, Bhai Gurdas, Guru Granth’s Amanuensis [scribe] was not incorporated in the Guru Granth, belies Gurinder Mann’s insinuation that the Gurus applied discriminatory benchmark in selection of scriptures to be included in the Guru Granth.
Having accomplished this task of selecting hymns, *the gurus asserted further the* *supremacy of the content of Sikh revelation*. Whenever the hymns of the Bhagats seemed to convey a message even slightly different from Sikh thinking, *attempts were made to correct* them. We have referred to Guru Amardas’s response to *Farid’s pessimistic ideas* about imminence of death-his assertion of a more positive outlook on life. Ibid, p.112

The insinuations, innuendos, misconstrued and misinterpreted Gurbani verses in the preceding passages portray the Sikh Gurus and Bhai Gurdas as condescending supremacists. Translated and interpreted objectively, the quoted Gurbani verses and Var of Bhai Gurdas do not support his aspersions.

The Sikh scriptural Anthology, a paragon of spiritual awareness and empirical Realism, exhorts mankind to cultivate rapport with the ultimate reality to obviate fear of mortality and dwell in the ensuing eternal spiritual realm. And the Gurus did not criticize the Bhagats, nor did they emend their scriptures, but expounded some of their couplets that could be naively misconstrued or mischievously misinterpreted. Yet some do it anyway.

There is no doubt that the *hymns of the Bhagats* selected for the Sikh text were thought to communicate a divine message, but the *explanation of their relation to the hymns of the Sikh gurus began with Guru Amardas *himself. He perceived the gurbani (he seems to have been thinking of Guru Nanak as a paradigm for the guru) as the medium of God’s word (Satgur bani sabadu sunae, M3, AG, 1177), its echo, he said, is present in all four corners of the word (Gurbani chahu kundi sunai sachai nami sumaida, M3, AG, 1065, and gurbani varti jag antari isu bani te harinamu paida, M3, AG, 1066). Ibid, p.117

Such statements suggest that *Guru Amardas considered the hymns of the gurus to have a unique significance, and one far greater than the hymns of the bhagat*, which had to be carefully selected before being inducted into the Sikh text. The *implied ranking is rooted in Guru Amardas’s distinction between guru and Bhaga*t:
Bhagatu Bhagatu Kahai sabhu koi.
Bin satgur seve bhagati na pave pure bhagi milai prabhu soi, (M3, AG, 1131)
Everyone may call himself a Bhagat.
Without serving the true guru saintliness cannot be attained; it is with good luck that we reach God [and attain this stage] Ibid, p.117
The fundamental distinction between guru and Bhagat defined the basic structure of the Goindval Pothis, a structure later adhered to in the Kartarpur Pothi and the Adi Granth. The hymns of Guru Nanak result directly from the original revelation and are taken to constitute the pinnacle of sacred Sikh literature; the next stage belongs to hymns of created by the Sikh Gurus who carried the light of Guru Nanak; at the third stage came the hymns by the Sikhs who were initiated into sainthood by the gurus themselves; and the hymns of Bhagats, who had no connection with the gurus, are at the lower end of this hierarchy of sanctity. Ibid, p.117-8

In the rag Sorathi, Guru Ramdas writes about the greatness of God, the liberating power of the guru, and human beings who are blessed with the divine grace. In the last group, he refers to the four categories of the holy people. (Bhagats, Saints, Sadhus, and Sikhs of the guru) and categorically states that the Sikhs are the most fortunate ones among them (Sabhdu vade bhag gursikha ke jo gurcharni sikh paratai, M4, AG, 649. He has no doubt that the Sikhs belong to a higher level of blessedness than the one enjoyed by the Bhagats. Ibid, p.118

Bhai Gurdas is not modest in explicating the hierarchical relationship between the Bhagats and the Sikhs (Gurmukhs/Gursikhs”). He writes about the Bhagats (Var 10), the early prominent Sikhs (Var 11), and the code of conduct centered on their devotion to the guru (Var 12). He believes that the Sikhs attained the same bliss received by Beni, Dhanna, Kabir, Namdev, Ravidas, and Sain. In other words, only the most prominent saints of the other traditions were on an equal level with the Sikhs of the guru. Ibid, p.118

His absurd assertion, that the Gurus ranked the Bhagats inferior to Gurus, Saints, Sadhus and Sikhs, is symptomatic of deficient and/or devious scholarship. In Sikhism there are only three entities, God, Guru [Word] and Sikhs, who are not beatified, but venerated and revered as Bhagats, Saints or Sadhus according to their spirituality, devotion, piety, altruism and noble virtues. In the Sikh scriptural anthology, Guru Granth Sahib, there are numerous hymns by the Sikh Gurus, venerating the bhagats, including Guru Arjan’s hymn that explicitly mentions bhagats blessed with reverence and veneration. See GGS p.487

The Sikh Gurus adopted the, universally lauded, par excellence criteria and methodology in the monumental task of collection, selection, redaction, collation, and pagination of Sikh scriptural anthology, Guru Granth Sahib, that is popularly acclaimed and regarded to be personification of perpetual Guru of the Sikhs, ‘in its entirety’, as per Sikhism’s cardinal concept and doctrine, ‘Guru’s eternal Word, not his mortal body, is the Guru’. The comments of the celebrated non-Sikh scholars philosophers and leaders, quoted directly below, best describe the Sikhism’s universal theology and egalitarian social Ideology, as enshrined in the Guru Granth Sahib [Sikh Scripture]. The term ‘in its entirety’ is noteworthy as it signifies the inclusiveness of Bhagat Bani.

“At a time when the society and the nation was splintered in the name of caste, religion, language and region, Guru Arjan took up the challenging task of bringing the entire humanity in one fold by incorporating the Banis of Saints and Scholars from almost all classes of society to spread the message of Fatherhood of God and brotherhood of mankind.” *Dr. Hameed Ansari, Vice President of India,* Sikh Review, Feb. 2009

“But the Adi Granth is a catholic [universal] anthology. It also includes hymns written by earlier Indian seers in whom Nanak and his successors recognized kindred spirits; and some of these contributors to the Granth are Hindus, while others are Muslims. Their writings have found a place in the Adi Granth because the compilers of it held, and surely with good reason, that these seers were Sikhs in fact, though they lived and wrote before the Sikh religion took institutional form. They were Sikhs because they brought out and emphasized the universal spiritual truths contained in their respective religious traditions; and these truths belong to all ages and to all faiths.” *Arnold Toynbee, Forward*, *UNESCO Publication ‘The Sacred Writings of The Sikhs’ *p.10

“A remarkable feature of the Adi Granth is that it contains the writings of the religious teachers of Hinduism, Islam, etc. … The Sikh Gurus who compiled the Adi Granth had this noble quality of appreciation of whatever was valuable in other religious traditions. The saints belong to the whole world. They are universal men, who free our minds from bigotry and superstition, dogmas and rituals and emphasize the central simplicities of the inner values who correct the fanaticisms of their superstitious followers. [*Late] Dr. S. Radhakrishnan, President of India,* Ibid,pp.17-8

*Conclusion*
Why would Gurinder Singh Mann, or anyone else for that matter, choose to pursue inquisitorial study of Sikh anthology, stamped with its original coauthors, venerated and revered Sikh Gurus and Hindu and Muslim Saints’ signatures, compared to some other major religions’ scriptures that were written by the disciples long after their respective religions’ founder’s demise? Apparently, he chose to pursue Ph. D. degree to advance his literary profile and academic career, under the tutelage of academics whose proficiency in the Sikh theology, ideology and history we can only extrapolate. His published thesis, rife with radical contentions and adverse controversies gleaned from some disenchanted Sikhs and mythological chroniclers accounts, incompatible with Sikh scripture’s unique message, traditions and historical details, packs potential to detract the cause of Sikhism. Obviously he is aware of the accounts’ anomalies.
Given the centrality of scripture in the tradition, almost all the Sikh chroniclers refer to the compilation of the original text and its expansion into the Adi Granth. These authors constructed their accounts primarily around oral traditions, using them with varying degrees of ingenuity. T.M.O.S.S., pp.5-6

The nineteenth–century narrators, however, introduced additional dramatic details. In these accounts, Kabir is presented as the spokesperson for the Bhagats during their visit to the Sikh court. He respectfully introduces each of them to Guru Arjan and announces the precise purpose of their visit - to get their hymns recorded in the sacred Sikh text. …. These chroniclers also knew that many of the Bhagats whose hymns are recorded in Sikh scripture were dead by the time of Guru Arjan. Still, they easily circumvented the difficulty of announcing for this historical anomaly by describing the saints’ arrival in ethereal forms. Ibid, p.103


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## spnadmin (Apr 4, 2009)

Very good... because Dr. Mann has also been criticized but now we have the specifics before us.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 4, 2009)

Dear Giani Ji,

Here is a copy from Encyclopedia of Sikhism, Page, 279 describing the history of Bhai Banno and his carrying the 2nd copy of Pothi Sahib to his house with bibliography from 4 sources, either encyclopedia is wrong or Sahib Singh.

*BANNO BHAI (1558-1645)*

BANNO, BHAI (1558-1645), a prominent Sikh contemporary of Guru Arjan and Guru Hargobind, was the son of Bhai Bishan Dev of village Mangat, also called Khara-Maligat, Khara being its older name, in Phalia. _tahsil _of Gujrat district (now in Pakistan). He was born on Saturday, Baisakh _sudi _13, 1615 Bk/ 30 April 1558. Banno grew up with a deeply religious disposition. He turned a Sikh and rendered diligent service during the construction of Harimandar at Amritsar under Guru Arjan. On the completion of the compilation of (Guru) Granth Sahib in 1604, Guru Arjan deputed Bhai Banno to carry the holy volume to Lahore for binding. The later with the Guru's permission first carried it to his village and then brought it back to Lahore. During his journey to and from his village he prepared his own copy of the Holy Book. He got, both the copies bound and brought them to the Guru, who installed the original copy (Adi Bir) in the Harimandar and returned the other copy to Bhai Banno. This recension came to be known as Bhai Banno Vali Bir or Khare Vali Bir, because the Bhai had installed it in his own house at Khara-Maligat.

Bhai Banno continued to preach Sikh tenets in the north-western parts of the Punjab till his death in Magh 1701 Bk/January 1645.

BIBLIOGRAPHY

1. Bhalla, Sarup Das, _Mahima Prakash. _Patiala, 1971

2. Bal, Rajinder Singh, _Bhai Banno Darpan. _Jalandhar, 1989 

3. _Bhai Banno Sahib. _Kanpur, n. d.

4. _Gurbilas Chhevlri Patshahi. _Patiala, 1970


Cordially,

Virinder

Forum members: This post is very similar and almost a duplicate of former post number 23 in this thread. I respectfully want to explain that I do not plan to delete this post because it is being used to address a different issue in context. This time we are looking at comments about Banno bir side by side. Thank you. aad0002


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## pk70 (Apr 4, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Giani Ji,
> 
> Here is a copy from Encyclopedia of Sikhism, Page, 279 describing the history of Bhai Banno and his carrying the 2nd copy of Pothi Sahib to his house with bibliography from 4 sources, either encyclopedia is wrong or Sahib Singh.
> 
> ...




*Respected VSGREWAL Ji
Kindly read Dr Sahib Singh's views on Bano, he proves logically it was not possible to do all what is claimed done by Bhai Bano in given time. He measures the time and distance and means of transportation prevailed for people like  Bhai Bano in those times, it doesnt add up. Why only this essay you are quoting can be the final truth?*


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 4, 2009)

Dear & Respected PK 70 Ji,

In that case Encyclopedia is wrong and one should complain to Dr. Harbans Singh of Punjabi University, Patiala to correct it, but then question arises how we can correct the bibliography. Encyclopedia is all over the web and it needs to be corrected.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## pk70 (Apr 4, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear & Respected PK 70 Ji,
> 
> In that case Encyclopedia is wrong and one should complain to Dr. Harbans Singh of Punjabi University, Patiala to correct it, but then question arises how we can correct the bibliography. Encyclopedia is all over the web and it needs to be corrected.
> 
> ...




*Respected VSGREWAL Ji

Yes, it should be corrected, isnt the all debate  about it. I  have given Guru Shabad condemning rituals, here is  another one again
* *ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਪੂਜਾ ਵਰਤ ਤਿਲਕ ਇਸਨਾਨਾ ਪੁੰਨ ਦਾਨ ਬਹੁ ਦੈਨ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਕਹੂੰ ਨ ਭੀਜੈ ਸੰਜਮ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਮੀਠੇ ਬੈਨ [/FONT]॥[/FONT]੧॥[/FONT] *
*Ḏẖanāsrī mėhlā 5.[/FONT]   Pūjā varaṯ ṯilak isnānā punn ḏān baho ḏain.[/FONT]   Kahū▫aŉ na bẖījai sanjam su▫āmī bolėh mīṯẖe bain. ||1||[/FONT]   *
*Dhanasri 5th Guru.[/FONT] Worship, fasting, frontal mark, ablution, the bestowal of copious alms and charity,[/FONT] self-mortification and the utterance of sweet words, with none of these the Lord is pleased.[/FONT] *
*
ਹੇਭਾਈ! ਲੋਕ ਦੇਵ-ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, [/FONT]ਵਰਤ ਰੱਖਦੇ ਹਨ, [/FONT]ਮੱਥੇ ਉਤੇ ਤਿਲਕ ਲਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, [/FONT]ਤੀਰਥਾਂਉਤੇ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ([/FONT]ਗਰੀਬਾਂ ਨੂੰ) ਬੜੇ ਦਾਨ-ਪੁੰਨ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, [/FONT]ਮਿੱਠੇ ਬੋਲ ਬੋਲਦੇਹਨ, [/FONT]ਪਰ ਅਜੇਹੀ ਕਿਸੇ ਭੀ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਮਾਲਕ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ।[/FONT]੧।[/FONT]* 

*ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜੀ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਮਨ ਚੈਨ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਬਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਖੋਜਹਿ ਸਭਿ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਬਿਖਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲੈਨ ॥[/FONT]੧॥[/FONT] ਰਹਾਉ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] *
*Parabẖ jī ko nām japaṯ man cẖain.[/FONT]   Baho parkār kẖojėh sabẖ ṯā ka▫o bikẖam na jā▫ī lain. ||1|| rahā▫o.[/FONT]   *
*Repeating the revered Lord's Name, the soul obtains peace.[/FONT] All search for Him in various ways, but the search is difficult and He is found not. Pause.[/FONT] *
*
ਹੇਭਾਈ! ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਿਆਂ (ਹੀ) ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ (ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ)! ਸਾਰੇ ਲੋਕਕਈ ਤਰੀਕਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਲੱਭਦੇ ਹਨ, ([/FONT]ਪਰ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਉਸ ਨੂੰਲੱਭਣਾ) ਔਖਾ ਹੈ, [/FONT]ਨਹੀਂ ਲੱਭ ਸਕੀਦਾ।[/FONT]੧।[/FONT]ਰਹਉ।[/FONT]* 

*ਜਾਪ ਤਾਪ ਭ੍ਰਮਨ ਬਸੁਧਾ ਕਰਿ ਉਰਧ ਤਾਪ ਲੈ ਗੈਨ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਨਹ ਪਤੀਆਨੋ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੈਨ [/FONT]॥[/FONT]੨॥[/FONT] *
*Jāp ṯāp bẖarman basuḏẖā kar uraḏẖ ṯāp lai gain.[/FONT]   Ih biḏẖ nah paṯī▫āno ṯẖākur jog jugaṯ kar jain. ||2||[/FONT]   *
*Recitation, penance, wandering over the earth, attachment to austerities with body reversed,[/FONT] and following the path of Jogis and Jains: by such means the Lord is pleased not.[/FONT] *
*
ਹੇਭਾਈ! ਜਪ ਤਪ ਕਰ ਕੇ, [/FONT]ਸਾਰੀ ਧਰਤੀ ਉਤੇ ਚੱਕਰ ਲਾ ਕੇ, [/FONT]ਸਿਰ-ਭਾਰ ਤਪ ਕਰ ਕੇ, [/FONT]ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਦਸਮਦੁਆਰ ਵਿਚ ਚਾੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ, [/FONT]ਜੋਗ-ਮਤ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੁਗਤੀਆਂ ਕਰ ਕੇ, [/FONT]ਜੈਨ-ਮਤ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੁਗਤੀਆਂ ਕਰਕੇ-ਇਹਨਾਂ ਤਰੀਕਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ ਭੀ ਮਾਲਕ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨਹੀਂ ਪਤੀਜਦਾ।[/FONT]੨।[/FONT]* 

*ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰਮੋਲਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਤਿਨਿ ਪਾਇਓ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਿਰਪੈਨ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭੇਟੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਖਿ ਜਨ ਰੈਨ [/FONT]॥[/FONT]੩॥[/FONT]੧੩॥[/FONT] *
*Amriṯ nām nirmolak har jas ṯin pā▫i▫o jis kirpain.[/FONT]   Sāḏẖsang rang parabẖ bẖete Nānak sukẖ jan rain. ||3||13||[/FONT]   *
*The ambrosial Name an the Lord's praise are invaluable and he alone obtains them, to whom the Lord shows mercy.[/FONT] Meeting the society of saints, slave Nanak is blessed with the Lord's love and his life night, passes in peace.[/FONT] *
*
ਹੇਭਾਈ! ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ, [/FONT]ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਇਕਐਸਾ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਮੁੱਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈ ਸਕਦਾ-ਇਹ ਦਾਤਿ ਉਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਹਾਸਲ ਕੀਤੀਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਉੱਤੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ। [/FONT]ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਆਖ-ਹੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀਸੰਗਤਿ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ-ਰੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜ ਕੇ ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਜੀ ਮਿਲੇ ਹਨ, [/FONT]ਉਸਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਜੀਵਨ-ਰਾਤ ਸੁਖ-ਆਨੰਦ ਵਿਚ ਬੀਤਦੀ ਹੈ।[/FONT]੩।[/FONT]੧੩। [/FONT]❀ ਨੋਟ: ਇਥੋਂ ਤਕ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਰਾਗਵਿਚ '[/FONT]ਮਹਲਾ ੫' [/FONT]ਦੇ ੧੩ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਆ ਚੁਕੇ ਹਨ। [/FONT]ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਅਗਲੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦਾ ਜੋੜ-ਅੰਕ ੧੪ ਹੈ। [/FONT]ਇਸਦਾ ਭਾਵ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਅੰਕ ੧੩ ਤੋਂ ਅਗਾਂਹ ਨਵਾਂ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। [/FONT]ਸਿਰਲੇਖ '[/FONT]ਧਨਾਸਰੀਮਹਲਾ ੫' [/FONT]ਨਾ ਲਿਖਣ ਨਾਲ ਭੀ ਕੋਈ ਭਲੇਖੇ ਵਾਲੀ ਗੱਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ।[/FONT]*


*Guru who has been preaching that, how come he can be ignored in his own house? Why people would listen to a Guru who preaches against rituals but in his own house these were common place/or exist.[/FONT]*
*Funny, isn't it if go by Bhai Bano theory.
[/FONT]*


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 4, 2009)

Here is a article that tells us about the protest against Pashaura Singh and then letters written by Dr. Virinder Singh Grewal in favor of Pashaura Singh appointment to a chair. Read the article first and then read the letters.

*Sikhs to protest Pashaura Singh's appointment on Sep 26 *

28 September, 2008 - 17:15 — Balbir Singh 
SAN JOSE:

Dr. Baljeet Sahi, an Altadena veterinarian and president of Sikhs for Preservation of Sikhism and Sikh Heritage, and scores of other Sikhs 
will gather for a peaceful protest on the UC Riverside university's 
grounds from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. Sept. 26 to underline the community's 
anger at attempts by a scholar Pashaura Singh whose works challenge 
the authenticity of Sikh scriptures. 

Pashaura Singh's thesis and subsequent research are based on a manuscript that surfaced in 1987 that he believes is a draft of the 1,430-page document copiled by Guru Arjan. Singh says the so-called 1245 manuscript, part of the rare book collection at Guru Nanak Dev University, includes sections that are blank and others that have 
been crossed out, showing evidence of having been edited. 

Such an idea about the scriptures being edited or changed is blasphemous to most Sikhs and virtually negates the core belief that the revealed word of God is the revealed word. 

Sahi holds the 1245 manuscript fraudulent and said it was obtained from a scrap dealer. He said it may have been written by one of the guru's rivals, who started a parallel tradition after he was denied a 
guruship. 

He said scholars like Pashaura Singh are trying to mix the words of non-gurus with gurus' words. There have been many protests against Pashaura Singh's appointment to the endowed chair for which the Sikh Foundation raised $500,000. The chair is in memory of late Dr. Jasbir Singh Saini, a Phoenix cardiologist. 

Sikhs had protested even in 2005 about his appointment. At one stage, even Saini's widow, Saranjit Kaur Saini, had asked the former UCR 
Chancellor France Cordova urging her to choose another Sikh scholar.
Incidentally, Pashaura Singh courted controversy even with his 1991 doctoral thesis at the University of Toronto which was immediately condemned and later he was indicted in 1994 by the Akal Takht, the Sikhs' highest temporal authority, for blasphemy..
http://www.worldsikhnews.com/24%20September%202008/Sikhs%20to%20protest%20Pashaura%20Singh%20appointment%20on%20Sep%2026.htm
Submitted by,
Balbir Singh
Palo Alto, California
__________________________________________________________
See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/




Dear all,
I am pleased to announce that our member Dr. Virinder Singh Grewal 
has taken lead to write directly to the Chancellor of the university 
at Riverside in support of Pashura Singhs appointment. The Chancellor 
has responded with gratitude. We will also be sending all the post 
that appeared on SD in support to the University.

Copied Below exchange of posts between Dr. Greval and the Chancellor.

From: Timothy P. White To: virindergrewal@cablespeed.com Cc: Jessica 
Darin ; ellen.wartella@ucr.edu ; stephen.cullenberg@ucr.edu ; Cynthia 
Giorgio Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 12:57 AMSubject: Re: Dr. 
Pashaura Singh
Dr. Grewal,

Thank you for sharing your informative thoughts...they are helpful to 
us.
Sincerely,
Tim White
Chancellor

----- Original Message -----
From: Virinder S.Grewal M.D.,F.A.C.S. <virindergrewal@cablespeed.com>
To: timothy.white@ucr.edu <timothy.white@ucr.edu>
Sent: Wed Oct 01 12:44:54 2008
Subject: Dr. Pashaura Singh
The Sikh Studies Association of America Inc.
765 E. Sherwood Rd
Williamston, Michigan, 48895
Phone: (517) 655-4507
Virindergrewal@cablespeed.com
Dated; October 1, 2008
Chancellor Timothy P. White
Office of the Chancellor
University of California, Riverside
4108 Hinderaker Hall
900 University Avenue
Riverside, CA - 92521
USA
E-mail: timothy.white@ucr.edu
Ref: Dr. Pashaura Singh
Dear Chancellor White:
I am honored to write this letter on behalf of Dr. Pashaura Singh. I 
would like to introduce myself to you. I am a retired Urologist and 
Associate Professor of Surgery (Urology) from Michigan State 
University (MSU). I am also President of â€˜The Sikh Studies 
Association of Americaâ€™ and â€˜The Sikh Gurudwara of Michiganâ€™ since 
its inception in 1978.

The Sikh Studies association has been involved in many Sikh programs. 
One of these was establishing a Sikh Studies Endowed Chair at the 
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. I took the initiative in 1984 and 
was able to collect 1.2 million dollars, finally establishing the 
Sikh Studies Chair at the University of Michigan.

I have known Dr. Singh from the last 25 years and was instrumental in 
getting him at the University of Michigan in 1992. I am fully aware 
of his accomplishments, research, teaching and other work in Sikh 
theology. I am fully aware of his disputed thesis before it was 
published. His research and writings about Sikh Faith are exceptional.
By the way I am equally aware of the individuals protesting against 
him unreasonably and distastefully in an ignorant and egotistical 
manner for their own publicity. I find their actions immature and 
self-destructive in nature for the Sikh faith.

I am more knowledgeable about the Sikh Faith than these protestors, 
whom I know personally and in no way their observations are even 
close to the Sikh ethos of tolerance. Mostly, they are counter-
productive and self-destructive, acting like illiterates. They tried 
the same tactics at the University of Michigan but their efforts 
totally failed.

Dr. Singhâ€™s practice of his faith and knowledge is closer to the 
teachings of the Sikh Gurus than that of ignorant protestors. I am 
enclosing a list of individuals from all over the United States of 
America, who are members of the Sikh Studies Association and are with 
me in recommending Dr. Pashaura Singh holding the Sikh Studies 
Chair/Program at UC Riverside.

I will humbly suggest to you, Sir, please ignore the protestors as 
they are ignorant and destructive to the cause of Sikh Studies as 
well Sikh Faith. This challenge has to be dealt with human maturity 
in a constructive way.

Should you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal, M.D., F.A.C.S
Retired Professor of Surgery at MSU
765 E Sherwood Rd,
Williamston, MI


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## spnadmin (Apr 4, 2009)

Singh ji

These are letters that a number of us have already read on the Gurmat Learning Zone. 

One of them reports on the judgment of the authenticity of MS 1245 in conjunction with a protest of Dr. Pashuara Singh cleared of research misconduct at the University of California Riverside by the Chancellor after an investigation. 

The other is already a widely circulated letter addressed to the Chancellor of UC Riverside by forum member vsgewal ji in which he questions the credentials of Dr. Pashaura Singh's critics and accusers.

Both of these were on the web early part of last week as they pertained specifically to Dr. Pashaura. I am not sure how they add or contribute to our understanding of specific questions discussion on this thread. The are really not about either Bir, nor about MS 1245 other than one man's personal opinion.


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## Admin (Apr 4, 2009)

*well, the only person who can dispel clouds over the whole controversy is Prof. Pashaura Singh ji himself would it be prudent if we could invite Prof Pashaura Singh ji to SPN and clear the doubts of the sangat about the whole episode, but only if he wishes...
*


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## spnadmin (Apr 4, 2009)

I welcome the idea. Aman ji, this is probably the only forum so far that is taking the discussion the full length rather than dodging bullets. So Dr. Pashaura would bring a deeper understanding of the issues.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 4, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Singh ji
> 
> These are letters that a number of us have already read on the Gurmat Learning Zone.
> 
> ...


 
Your shying away from what these letters actually mean. Let's see what the members here have to say and then I'll give my input on these letters. *Hopefully a member doesn't purposely cause a contterversy here and then a mod steps in to close the thread*.


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## spnadmin (Apr 4, 2009)

Who knows what a mod will do? Follow the guidelines I hope*. aad0002*


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 5, 2009)

Dr. Virinder Singh Grewal, I have some questions for you regarding the letters I presented in this thread.  Are you willing and do you have the time to answer some questions about the letters you wrote to Tim White.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 5, 2009)

No Sir, neither I want to discuss nor I have the time to talk about a third person on the forum. I respectfully deny your respect. I have closed this thread from my side. You do what ever you like.

Thanks for your participation.

Respectfully submitted

Virinder


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## spnadmin (Apr 5, 2009)

Recent posts to this thread that are related to the 5 K's, rituals, symbols, Amrit and inner purity have been moved to a new thread entitled, Rituals, Symbols and Spiritual Cleansing at http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24516-rituals-symbols-and-spiritual-cleansing.html

Thank you: aad0002


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 5, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> No Sir, neither I want to discuss nor I have the time to talk about a third person on the forum. I respectfully deny your respect. I have closed this thread from my side. You do what ever you like.
> 
> Thanks for your participation.
> 
> ...


 
it's not to discuss about a third person, by your relationship with Dr. Pashaura as you did know him for 25 years,  you were a big part in getting him a job at University of Michigan in 1992, after he wrote his thesis in 1991, that was disrespectful to the Gurus and Sikhism, and you were fully aware of the thesis, and at the end all of this you say Dr. Pashaura, who was charged with 5 accounts of *Blasphemy*, has exceptional work!!!

What I am trying to understand is how can someone come to a conclusion that Dr. Pashaura has expectional research and writing on the Sikh Faith, when he clearly called the Fith and Fourth Guru distorters of Guru Nanak Dev jis Bani and also attacked Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji's authenticity.  And the most *shocking* part from all of this is, Dr. Pashaura wrote his thesis on *basless observations. *

What I mean is you wrote a letter in support of his appointment, you must have something to add here.  No one just writes a letter in support of another without knowing what he has done in the past, and is able to trust the person.

As looking into this whole thing, I believe there is still information that the sangat doesn't know about, which is of great value and importances to the whole discussion of MS 1245 and if this information comes out some peoples reputation might be hanging on the cliff and it'll be unfavorable for them to completely disclose the whole matter for the sangat to see.

Well thats what I take from all this!


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## spnadmin (Apr 5, 2009)

Singh ji

Let's try to review what has happened with an unemotional and non-accusatory tone. I am sure that Dr. Grewal can speak for himself and I am not speaking for him. I am speaking right now as someone who is concerned that this thread retain a semblance of rational debate.  :welcome:



Singh said:


> it's not to discuss about a third person, by your relationship with Dr. Pashaura as you did know him for 25 years,  you were a big part in getting him a job at University of Michigan in 1992, after he wrote his thesis in 1991,
> 
> You have already made the above point by posting Dr. Grewal's letter in a previous post. As Dr. Grewal himself posted this letter at another site (presumably you found the letter on the Internet) we can assume that he has nothing to hide or he would have already kept it from public view. Therefore, there is no way the letter or any part of it can be considered "evidence" of anything other that what it professes in black and white. The letter cannot be waived around like a red flag in other words.
> 
> ...



Singh ji -- if there is a conspiracy, it will be a long time before we find out who the real players are. Dr. Pashaura, Dr. McLeod, and other scholars are discussing these matters publicly, writing in journals, submitting their work to other scholars for criticism, and presenting their ideas to academic conferences -- putting it all out there in full view. Therefore, it is unlikely they are hiding anything, or doing anything dishonest. They have offered some hypotheses that others find objectionable.  What we have witnessed is the exercise of academic freedom. Without academic freedom, individuals, for example Giordano Bruno who was burned at the stake in 1600 for arguing that the sun was the center of the known universe and that the universe is infinite, would be persecuted.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 5, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Singh ji
> 
> Let's try to review what has happened with an unemotional and non-accusatory tone. I am sure that Dr. Grewal can speak for himself and I am not speaking for him. I am speaking right now as someone who is concerned that this thread retain a semblance of rational debate. :welcome:
> 
> ...


 
That was my views and if you see it a different way that's fine.  If I wanted to respond to your post I will, but that will only get me in trouble as you'll find somethings objectable.  So im leave it up to the sangat to come up with there own conclusions as I have come with mine.  If you find my conclusion baised then give me the right to speak freely and where Dr. Virinder Singh Grewal will answer my questions.  which he has refused to do so, so far.  If hes willing to answer my questions I can disclose further information and bring some light on this debate.

Thanks 
Singh


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## spnadmin (Apr 5, 2009)

Singh ji,



Singh said:


> That was my views and if you see it a different way that's fine.
> 
> Good.
> 
> ...



Warm regards
Antonia


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