# Sikhs Reflect And Object. Who Will Cast The First Stone?



## spnadmin (Jul 18, 2010)

*Sikhism: Reflections on objections, judgments and casting the first stone.*


For the week of July 7 through 13 the Internet magazine, SikhChic, found itself reflecting on some essential questions: Who is a Sikh?  Who is not a true Sikh? And should they report on people in the news who do not fit the bill? The editors conducted this discussion in the format they call The Roundtable Open Forum. A problem is presented and readers are invited to express their views. The roundtable topic was entitled, "Cast the first stone."


It appeared that the site had received many complaints following stories about individuals who were either born Sikh, called themselves Sikh, or “sported Sikh names” – yet the subjects of these stories did not always conform to requirements laid out by the Sikh Rehat Maryada. I found this to be a fascinating article, because it was a call to the SikhChic audience to help the site achieve a clear understanding of its own readership, and their values and perceptions regarding these two very  important questions.

I have been reading articles in SikhChic now for approximately 5 years. Personally, I never considered the publication as a definitive resource on matters related to Sikh philosophy or doctrine. Nor does SikhChic aim to be such a site. As a matter of personal opinion, I also have never considered Sikhism to be a religion that is heavy on doctrine. For that reason, SikhChic more than anything always seemed to be a comfortable zone to find out more about contemporary Sikhs and Sikhism in the modern world, specifically in the diaspora.  SikhChic’s spectrum of content ranges from articles on faith and food, humor and art, controversy and the partition, and they have an outstanding collection of eye-witness stories of the 1984 Sikh Genocide. It is not a site devoted to heavy-duty vichaar of the Shabad, or rigorous analysis of a concept like dharma in Sikhim. When seeking rigorous analysis and vichaar, there are many other sites that I consult. SikhChic writers include keshdhari and amritdhari Sikhs, and some are not even Sikhs. 

I was intrigued to read about the objections raised by their readers against people covered by SikhChic who are “not a true Sikh” and  “not worthy of being reported." At SPN we have also read similar objections. 

Since I do not have permission to quote verbatim from this article, intellectual property laws in the US only permit me to paraphrase. So I have summarized what SikhChic readers found objectionable about the _untrue and unworthy _Sikhs. Their demerits included: _Cutting hair; drinking alcohol, a career choice at odds with Sikh values, both eating and not eating meat; marriage outside of the Sikh faith; having children who married outside of the Sikh faith; being amirtdhari but having a wife who cuts her hair; engaging in yogic practices; using a caste name (Dhillon rather than Singh or Kaur); membership in the Congress party; memberhip in Akali Dal;  following a Baba or belonging to a dera; tying one’s beard; wearing western clothes; wearing nihang bana; supporting Khalistan; opposing Khalistan; abusing a spouse; being a fanatic; being disinterested in Sikhism._

A lot of contradictions, aren't there?

In other words many readers found these traits to be not only demerits, but reasons to exclude someone as a legitimate topic for a story on a site considering itself to be a Sikh web site.

The editors went on to ask whether anyone possessing any of these flaws should be ostracized.  They pointed out that there might be no one left to cover. Should they adopt an editorial policy in which only those Sikhs who are without any of these demerits are the subjects of SikhChic stories in the future? They invited their readers to be the judge.  Then they added this caveat: “Courts of law require litigants to come before the judges "with clean hands", if they are seeking relief. That is, the court will grant relief to only those litigants who themselves have not been wrong-doers.”

Who decides?

The discussion that followed this roundtable was as intriguing as the question itself. Here are excerpts of the responses. Names have been deleted. Replies have been shortened.  The readers who participated in the roundtable discussion seemed for the most part to be very different from the segments of the audience who voiced complaints about SikhChic’s coverage. 



_I am content with sikhchic.com celebrating Sikhs, with warts and all. _
_Every one who believes in Guru Granth Sahib and in the Sikh Gurus deserves to be recognized as Sikh and deserves to be written about. _
_It is best to talk about everyone, and people can filter out what they disagree with. _
_We do not need to criticize others, that is between them and the Guru. We need to judge our own actions, our principles, our thoughts. _
_If we take the 'listed criteria' to exclude people from declaring their Sikhi, then almost instantly we've shrunk Sikhs into a negligible number. _
_Let's all revert to Guru Nanak's wonderful message: "There is no Hindu, There is no Mussalman ... [There is no Christian, There is no Jew ...]" I_
_For me, an amritdhari consuming alcohol is far worse than an average Sikh cutting his/her hair. Let me explain: the amritdhari has reached that stage (hopefully) after reaching a high level of discipline, and then has taken vows to live such a life of full discipline in the service of humanity. His/her then taking alcohol is akin to a betrayal - not unlike a Christian priest committing a sexual crime or a police-officer breaking the law. The analogy is not perfect, but it at least stands for the point I am making. _
_All I can say is that I have seen numerous manmukhs become gurmukhs and vice versa. It all comes down to what type of sangat (company) we associate with. _
_The day a person finds the power of Naam, then he/she will end up following the Guru's path. _
_Anyone who does not believe - in JUST AND ONLY JUST the ten Gurus and Guru Granth Sahib - should not be considered a Sikh. As Sant Bhindranwale said …"If you are Hindu then be a complete Hindu, if you are Muslim then be a complete Muslim, and if you are SIKH, THEN BE A COMPLETE SIKH!"_
_The Guru's emphasized the importance of sangat, for this reason alone it is the sangat that helps you reach your goal. If you want to play tennis, spending time with those who like golf will not help you. But those golf players will eventually influence you to like golf, just because their presence will encourage you to do so._
_I greatly enjoy reading articles on sikhchic.com about all types of Sikhs and I don't think alienating people is a philosophy Sikh cyber-leadership should espouse. We need more things (such as these websites) that bring us together rather than driving an already fractured community further apart. _
_I believe it is the moral and ethical responsibility of educated and privileged Sikhs everywhere to provide a balanced view of these people and not shy away from pointing out where they have failed with regards to moral and ethical standards which are accepted world-wide ... it is reprehensible to provide a distorted view and mislead people into believing that these people are model figures to be idolized or not held accountable for their misdeeds! _
_Every saint has a past and every sinner a future. When the time is ripe and you are ready, the unmanifest become manifest and visible. _
_please don't portray those who have openly declared their conversion to another faith as if they are within the Sikh sphere. It is plain false. .. Nikki Haley is a blatant example of someone of this type. _
_Start casting a Sikh within. The stone will fall down itself. A Sikh is in the learning, not a mask on the decorated body. Sikhi is also not inherited. Everyone has to begin with receiving the true Naam. Sikhi is lost when the wisdom of true Naam is lost. All that is left then is a worldly religion._
_We cannot keep narrowing our vision. Please keep us connected to issues, friends, news and views. There are plenty with regressive mindsets addressing only those who fit their bill. _
_Those who don't give a damn about the rights and wrongs of a certain situation or issue, have somehow become progressives?_
_Can we say that Guru Nanak was not a true Sikh because his constant companion was a Muslim? If not, how can we castigate those who are friendly with, or marry people of other religions. So long as we believe there is only one Oankar, religious divide does not come in. These are the views of a simple and honest man._
_Progress is connected to the term "progressive", and progress today is in learning to navigate the world, by reaching out, not by staying within walls that are killing our motivation, and alienating fellow Sikhs. Our efforts are better spent on learning about our new world than obstructing it, keeping compassion as our basis for progress._
_I have been reading articles on sikhchic.com for a few years and I have to say that many of those who write have double standards - one for girls/ women, another for boys/men. The majority of the articles I see on the site showcase achievements of boys/men are about those who are turbaned and who have not cut their hair. But on the other hand, when they publish an article on Sikh girls, they don't care whether she has uncut her hair or not.] _
_Instead of trying to understand what the Gurus said, we are trying to force ourselves as gurus of today's date. The Sikh Religion has doors open to anyone, everyone. _
_Anyone who claims that his/her only and living Guru is Guru Granth Sahib is a Sikh. What kind of Sikh? That is between him and his Guru. As is Guru Granth for a Sikh, there is Guru Panth. So I am loyal to His sangat. My prejudices are overruled by His acceptance. _
What are your reactions? 
http://www.sikhchic.com/roundtable/cast_the_first_stone_the_roundtable_open_forum_36_july_7_13


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jul 19, 2010)

At present, I accept the definition of a Sikh as in SRM:

[SIZE=-1]Any human being who  faithfully believes in
*i.* One Immortal Being, 
* ii*. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to  Guru Gobind                          Singh Sahib,
                        iii. The Guru Granth Sahib, 
                        iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten  Gurus and[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] v.  the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does                          not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a  Sikh

Except for the second part of point v, these are all internal things which no one except the person can judge.  It is usually possible to tell if someone owes allegiance to some other religion, hence I would not regard a member of a dera as  Sikh.

This raises an interesting question:  Are those excommunicated by Akal Takht Sikhs if they meet the requirements of the SRM?  
[/SIZE]​


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## spnadmin (Jul 19, 2010)

Mai ji

Thanks for getting the thread started.   You have a lot on your plate and took the time to do this. Your question is astute. Who has the answer? How easy was the question?


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## spnadmin (Jul 19, 2010)

24 hours later it looks like SPN members and visitors are interested in the topic (69 views) and members are less likely to draw a hard line in the sand on the subject.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jul 19, 2010)

And I am still the only vote.

Let me rephrase my question:

Which is the higher authority in Sikhi. The SRM or the Akal Takht?  This is a real question that I would like a definitive answer to.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 19, 2010)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> And I am still the only vote.
> 
> Let me rephrase my question:
> 
> Which is the higher authority in Sikhi. The SRM or the Akal Takht?  This is a real question that I would like a definitive answer to.



Mai ji,

Guru Fateh.

For me personally, the only authourity is SGGS, our only Guru which leads us to the objective reality.

SRM, Akaal Takhat, SGPC, DGMC, etc etc are based on subjective truths hence some of their actions/ practices contradict the teachings of SGGS, our only Guru.

As the above are subjective, they should change and mold themselves with time in an objective way because Sikhi is not like a broken clock that stopped in time like other religions based on dogmas.

Pragmatism, the foundation of Sikhi demands these constant changes from the above entities. Otherwise they would remain political puppets as they are now, full of me-isms rather than helping others to become connected with the ONE.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jul 20, 2010)

Tejwant Ji,

Of course, no Sikh could disagree that SGGS ji is our highest authority.  Nothing else can even be compared.

My question is just between these two lesser Sikh things.

If someone meets the criteria outlined in the SRM and is excommunicated by the Akal Takht, in this most recent case, specifically Darshan Singh ji, am I as a practicing Sikh to follow the SRM, which doesn't consider excommunication or am I to follow the edict of the Akal Takht?

I know you understand that already, but some others might not.


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## G. GOBIND SINGHJI CHELA (Jul 20, 2010)

Sat Sri akaal......
                     We should follow Guru Nanaks ideologi.......naam japna,kirt karna & vandke shakna.

Naam japna    ......   recitation of waheguru

kirt karna   .........    tell everybody to do the recitation

vandke shakne   .........    don't be selfish,be always helpful and always share.

That is the best ideologi on how to be a real sikh,not the petty things.


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## Balkar Singh (Jul 20, 2010)

"Ilahi khair ho us carvan ki jis ka har shakas meer-e carvan ho" God save the carvan where every-one is sardar (leader). We need to follow one maryada, and check that no one be allowed to add or delete. Satguru Ramdass ji have compared these adulterers with 'son of a veswa' who's father will never get cogratulations. Unnecessary criticisms, raising doubts and objections, is not a Sikhi. We must come close like sons of One Father and like 'a sikh-family'. Shed ego, be sevadar and trust the Great Guru. Satguruji bless us all.


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## hpannu (Jul 20, 2010)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> At present, I accept the definition of a Sikh as in SRM:
> 
> [SIZE=-1]Any human being who  faithfully believes in
> *i.* One Immortal Being,
> ...



VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA
VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH !

Mai Ji, I consider SIKH to be as defined under the SIKH REHAT MARYADA (SRM), excommunication by Akal Takht now a days is under the influence of other parties NOT Jathedar's. We as Sikhs have to give NIRPAKH opinion/decision following teachings from GURU GRANTH SAHIB. The 2nd ? you raised was who is superior AKAL TAKHT or SRM  - AKAL TAKHT is supreme authority not SRM - but we all have to free AKAL TAKHT from leaders who are anti panthic/sikh ( all they care about is votes and promoting their families members/relatives - there hunger for power is bigger than the PANTH ). 

Bhul Chuk Maaf, 
rangesingh:


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## Randip Singh (Jul 20, 2010)

I would also say, someone who tells other people they cannot eat meat or forces others to eat meat is not Sikh. They are simply a fool!welcomemunda


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## hpannu (Jul 20, 2010)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> Tejwant Ji,
> 
> Of course, no Sikh could disagree that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is our highest authority.  Nothing else can even be compared.
> 
> ...



Mai Ji - if we call ourselves SIKHS then we have to follow AKAL TAKHT SAHIB. Infact if we follow teachings from Shri Guru Granth Sahib - then we SIKHS should practice NIM ke rehna ( humbleness ). Just like Maharaja Ranjit Singh accepted AKAL TAKHT's verdict. Right or Wrong the edict of AKAL TAKHT SAHIB has to be followed. If i ever get called to AKAL TAKHT SAHIB to apologize to the PANTH i will do it without questioning who is right and who is wrong ?  it is so easy to say i am CHOTA ( smaller ) infront of AKAL TAKHT / PANTH !

I think i have answered your questions in this forum to the best of my ability. if not i apologize upfront. Bhul Chuk Maaf karna Ji.

Harjot Singh:blueturban:


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## Bmandur (Jul 20, 2010)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> And I am still the only vote.
> 
> Let me rephrase my question:
> 
> Which is the higher authority in Sikhi. The SRM or the Akal Takht? This is a real question that I would like a definitive answer to.


 
*ANSWER TO THAT IS*:
Any human being who faithfully believes in
*i.* One Immortal Being, 
*ii*. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,
iii. The Guru Granth Sahib, 
iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and 
[SIZE=-1]v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, [/SIZE]*is a Sikh

*​


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## Bmandur (Jul 20, 2010)

hpannu said:


> Mai Ji - if we call ourselves SIKHS then we have to follow AKAL TAKHT SAHIB. Infact if we follow teachings from Shri Guru Granth Sahib - then we SIKHS should practice NIM ke rehna ( humbleness ). Just like Maharaja Ranjit Singh accepted AKAL TAKHT's verdict. Right or Wrong the edict of AKAL TAKHT SAHIB has to be followed. If i ever get called to AKAL TAKHT SAHIB to apologize to the PANTH i will do it without questioning who is right and who is wrong ? it is so easy to say i am CHOTA ( smaller ) infront of AKAL TAKHT / PANTH !
> 
> I think i have answered your questions in this forum to the best of my ability. if not i apologize upfront. Bhul Chuk Maaf karna Ji.
> 
> Harjot Singh:blueturban:


 
*Which Akal Takhat Sahib Are you talking about?*
MARYADA, JATHEDAR"S, AKAALI"S, Takhat of Patna, Takhat of Nandher( HAzursahib)

 BHul CHuk Maaf


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 20, 2010)

> VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA
> VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH !
> 
> Mai Ji, I consider SIKH to be as defined under the SIKH REHAT MARYADA  (SRM), excommunication by Akal Takht now a days is under the influence  of other parties NOT Jathedar's. We as Sikhs have to give NIRPAKH  opinion/decision following teachings from GURU GRANTH SAHIB. The 2nd ?  you raised was who is superior AKAL TAKHT or SRM  - AKAL TAKHT is  supreme authority not SRM - but we all have to free AKAL TAKHT from  leaders who are anti panthic/sikh ( all they care about is votes and  promoting their families members/relatives - there hunger for power is  bigger than the PANTH ).







hpannu said:


> Mai Ji - if we call ourselves SIKHS then we have to follow AKAL TAKHT SAHIB. Infact if we follow teachings from Shri Guru Granth Sahib - then we SIKHS should practice NIM ke rehna ( humbleness ). Just like Maharaja Ranjit Singh accepted AKAL TAKHT's verdict. Right or Wrong the edict of AKAL TAKHT SAHIB has to be followed. If i ever get called to AKAL TAKHT SAHIB to apologize to the PANTH i will do it without questioning who is right and who is wrong ?  it is so easy to say i am CHOTA ( smaller ) infront of AKAL TAKHT / PANTH !
> 
> I think i have answered your questions in this forum to the best of my ability. if not i apologize upfront. Bhul Chuk Maaf karna Ji.
> 
> Harjot Singh:blueturban:



Harjot Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

How would you reconcile with your above two posts which seem to contradict themselves? Let's not forget that the same Akaal Takhat gave OK and wrote editorials to many antiSikhi books which they had to  ban later on.

About Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru teaches all of us who call ourselves Sikhs more than just to show humility through actions and the same message is for the honchos of the entities mentioned in my first post.

In my opinion, the word humility  used in the English language under these kinds of contexts is the most arrogant word.


Sikhi, unlike any other religion is an evolving way of life which means we as Sikhs evolve with time, thanks to Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru and this evolution means to change,adapt,mold so that goodness can be bred within which can be shared with others.

I would love to hear your opinion on your two posts.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## JimRinX (Jul 20, 2010)

Venerable jis
Just a word, after reviewing these comments, on this Wise Statement
"....then we SIKHS should practice NIM ke rehna ( humbleness )", from your favorite Buddhist Interloper.
While I understand your urge - your need (in such a diverse nation/place as "India") - to stand apart, for the sake of maintaining your Identity, and thus keeping your Noble Faith 'Pure', I hear more than a faint note of Fanaticism in these words; more than a hint of Too Much Pride.
Please don't do that. We have enough Fanatics in the world; and they are driving us apart in dangerous ways.
I have Much Respect for all that I've learned about Sikhism, over the last few years; as your Faith is, in my Humble Opinion, Pure Dharma.
Think of Guru Nanak ji going to Mecca. What would HE think of all this Prideful Banter? was this not a lesson to all that EVERYONE is a Sikh?
To those with Open Minds, merely studying Sikhism would do them a lot of good; but when you start saying things that make other people feel as if they can't possibly be a Sikh, too - it's only a matter of time before the Hot Irons (or Plates) emerge from the torturers closet, and the 'Infidels' get it.:firing:
And please, though you got stiffed (like the Kurds, the Sand Arabs, and so many others) by the Raj, after Independence, work to UNITE - not Divide! - as that's the only way we will be able to Save The World!
Sikhism has so much to offer, as far as that kind of thing is concerned.
PEACE - or else!


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## Bhai Harbans Lal (Jul 20, 2010)

“Sikh” is defined in section 2(9) of the Gurdwara Act  of 1925, which reads as under: --<?"urn:fficeffice" />
“2(9). “Sikh” means a person who professes the Sikh religion or, in the case of a deceased person, who professed the Sikh religion or was known to be a Sikh during his life time.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jul 20, 2010)

Bhai Harbans Lal said:


> “Sikh” is defined in section 2(9) of the Gurdwara Act  of 1925, which reads as under: --fficeffice" />
> “2(9). “Sikh” means a person who professes the Sikh religion or, in the case of a deceased person, who professed the Sikh religion or was known to be a Sikh during his life time.



Bhai Harbans Lal ji,

If I am reading this correctly, it is saying that anyone who says s/he is a Sikh is a Sikh.  This seems a bit broad.


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## Bhai Harbans Lal (Jul 20, 2010)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> Bhai Harbans Lal ji,
> 
> If I am reading this correctly, it is saying that anyone who says s/he is a Sikh is a Sikh.  This seems a bit broad.


According to Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal, Sikhee is to spread in the four corners of our globe, among all cultures and shades of people. This requires a definition that is inclusive and can accommodate a very wide variety of people seeking a religion. A broad definition is our Founder’s choice.   <?"urn:fficeffice" />


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## kds1980 (Jul 20, 2010)

Bhai Harbans Lal said:


> According to Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal, Sikhee is to spread in the four corners of our globe, among all cultures and shades of people. This requires a definition that is inclusive and can accommodate a very wide variety of people seeking a religion. A broad definition is our Founder’s choice.   <?"urn:fficeffice" />



Well so it means when a person can gain any benefit from sikhi then he/she can declare himself/herself sikh but when nothing is available or rampaging mobs are searching for sikhs then they are not sikhs.When maharaja Ranjit singh was in power there were 5-8 million sikhs after that only 1-2 million declared themself sikhs.Even Britishers predicted that this religion ios going to end.Thanks to so called talibani,orthodox sikhs to whom people abuse daily here sikhism survived.The liberals already left the boat


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## Bhai Harbans Lal (Jul 20, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> Well so it means when a person can gain any benefit from sikhi then he/she can declare himself/herself sikh but when nothing is available or rampaging mobs are searching for sikhs then they are not sikhs.When maharaja Ranjit singh was in power there were 5-8 million sikhs after that only 1-2 million declared themself sikhs.Even Britishers predicted that this religion ios going to end.Thanks to so called talibani,orthodox sikhs to whom people abuse daily here sikhism survived.The liberals already left the boat


Someone would elect to be a Sikh when in his or her view Sikhee offers an advantage over other choices. It will not ever be to please you or me or to meet any definition. All we have to do is to demonstrate in our own life the advantages of leading a Sikh life.  If these advantages are attractive to one who is searching and observing, Sikhee will be adapted by that person. Otherwise today’s world offers numerous other choices.  Your concern of what happened during and after Maharaja Ranjit Singh is a good illustration. There was no change in definition. It was a case of adopting Sikh symbol for the purpose of being counted as Sikh for a political advantage and then giving them up when that advantage disappeared. Mind you, even in those days, those who were Sikhs because of their adopting Sikhism for spirituality and love for gurbani continued to multiply even after the Sikh Raaj. The definitions are not going to attract any one but the impact of Sikhee on life will.  <?"urn:fficeffice" />


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## spnadmin (Jul 20, 2010)

Bhai Harbans Lal said:


> ...All we have to do is to demonstrate in our own life the advantages of leading a Sikh life.  If these advantages are attractive to one who is searching and observing, Sikhee will be adapted by that person. Otherwise today’s world offers numerous other choices.  Your concern of what happened during and after Maharaja Ranjit Singh is a good illustration. There was no change in definition. It was a case of adopting Sikh symbol for the purpose of being counted as Sikh for a political advantage and then giving them up when that advantage disappeared. *Mind you, even in those days, those who were Sikhs because of their adopting Sikhism for spirituality and love for gurbani continued to multiply even after the Sikh Raaj. *The definitions are not going to attract any one but the impact of Sikhee on life will.  fficeffice" />



Bhai Harbhans Lal ji

The part of your comment that sprang off the page when I read it is in bold and in blue. Those who adopted Sikhism for its spirituality and love for gurbani continues to this very day.  It is probably the major reason for conversion. It has to be. No one one converts so he/she can keep hair. Choosing to keep hair can happen whether one is a Sikh or not. Choosing to "dress as a Nihang" is not nearly enough to motivate someone to break away from one's own past and traditions, and risk possible rejection from family and friends. And it is the spirituality and gurbani that keeps one magnetized, not wanting to leave. This is not only true for converts but also from those born Sikh who re-discover the depth of their religion and move closer to the message of ShabadGuru.

It is very difficult for someone who has made a choice based on the goodness, love and compassion of all 10 Nanaks, to then make sense of the sometimes intense hostility aimed at a "Sikh" who has taken the path of less virtue. Someone who chooses the Methodist religion, remains a Methodist even when committing adultery. That person is a Methodist who has lapsed morally, but is still a Methodist. A person who chooses Sikhism, one who chooses the Shabad Guru, *will probably  never commit adultery, smoke, consume intoxicants, or adopt a profession at odds with Sikh values* -- and yet that same person can still have a very hard time understanding the exclusionary rule.,. "You are no longer a Sikh if you" ......and accompanied by so much anger.


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## kds1980 (Jul 20, 2010)

Bhai Harbans Lal said:


> Someone would elect to be a Sikh when in his or her view Sikhee offers an advantage over other choices. It will not ever be to please you or me or to meet any definition. All we have to do is to demonstrate in our own life the advantages of leading a Sikh life.  If these advantages are attractive to one who is searching and observing, Sikhee will be adapted by that person. Otherwise today’s world offers numerous other choices.  Your concern of what happened during and after Maharaja Ranjit Singh is a good illustration. There was no change in definition. It was a case of adopting Sikh symbol for the purpose of being counted as Sikh for a political advantage and then giving them up when that advantage disappeared. Mind you, even in those days, those who were Sikhs because of their adopting Sikhism for spirituality and love for gurbani continued to multiply even after the Sikh Raaj. The definitions are not going to attract any one but the impact of Sikhee on life will.  <?"urn:fficeffice" />



Harbans lal ji

OK tell me one thing .There are plenty of hindu's who have utmost respect for Gurbani and sikh spirituality.They go to Gurdwara's more than mandirs.Recite Gurbani more than many sikhs.Yet in dark days of 1984 they did not come out to save Gurdwara's or Guru granth sahib.why? Because they only adopted spiritual element of sikhism

In sikhism Guru hargobind ji added political element along with spiritual element
so those who consider themself sikhs should adopt political element of sikhism too O/W they cannot be considered them as sikhs


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## ugsbay (Jul 20, 2010)

SSA.
I have just read the list, well it looks like i have a long way to go to become a sikh by the looks of things. But i will get there, i have a lot to learn.  swordfight


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jul 20, 2010)

ugsbay said:


> SSA.
> I have just read the list, well it looks like i have a long way to go to become a sikh by the looks of things. But i will get there, i have a lot to learn.  swordfight




Ugsbay ji!  

Notice that some on that list have no votes!  Much of this seems to be a matter of opinion.  I'd suggest you concentrate on those with the most votes.

Better yet, study Shri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj ji , listen to a lot of kirtan, find a nice friendly gurudwara and make a lot of Sikh friends.

Sikhi, to me, is more about a particular approach to life than about a lot of rules.  Once that approach is understood, the "rules" are logical and make a lot of sense.  Many have found this approach  "something to live for, great enough to die for."  For us, it is worth the effort.

And shhhh...please don't tell anyone, this is a big secret...It's also a lot of fun.

And we all have a lot to learn.

swordfighticecreamkaur


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## dalbirk (Jul 21, 2010)

Bhai Harbans Lal Ji ,
                      It is beyond me to comment upon something pointed out by such an esteemed authority like you . But I wholly agree with kanwardeep Ji's observation that Sikhi survived only due to TALIBANISED / RADICALISED Sikhs like the founders of Singh Sabha Movement . Why did Guru Gobind Singh Ji made the hair & kirpan mandatory , because IMHO one explanation suggests that at the time of martydom of Guru Teg Bahadur Ji out of thousands of Sikhs in Delhi at that time only Bhai Jaita & Bhai Lakhi Shah played the role of Sikhs . None of the other followers came forward because they were a part of the crowd where they could conceal their identity .Also IMHO no other religion / Movement has survived in India where there were thousands of movements but only thing surviving is BRAHMINISM . Also one more thing is there despite several attempts to revive Buddhism in India the efforts have not yielded much results Why ? Because the Brahmins are in full control of Buddhist shrines all over India with no sign to distinguish them from real Buddhists . Why Jainism was absorbed & sank without a trace because 99.99% of Jains do not follow Jainism & worship Devi Devtas instead , shrines are controlled indirectly by Brahmins . No other INDIC religion has survived from the onslaught of Brahminism in India except Sikhism because of the outward symbols prominently HAIR . Which is why the shedding of Hairs by Sikhs in Punjab is causing so much alarm , is certainly seen as the decline of Sikhism & its subsequent absorbtion into Brahminism ( Hinduism )


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## hpannu (Jul 21, 2010)

Bmandur said:


> *Which Akal Takhat Sahib Are you talking about?*
> MARYADA, JATHEDAR"S, AKAALI"S, Takhat of Patna, Takhat of Nandher( HAzursahib)
> 
> BHul CHuk Maaf




BMandur Ji, there is only one Akal Takhat Sahib ! Maryada in question is Panth Parwaan Maryada ! as far as Jathedar's & Akalis - that i stated in my origional post we have to rescue Akal Takhat Sahib from them.swordfight


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## hpannu (Jul 21, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Harjot Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...




Tejwant Singh Ji - Mai Harinder Kaur Ji posted two questions - first was who is a SIKH ? even though we say every person is a SIKH ( like JimRinX has said in his post ) that is a very broad answer and SRM ( Sikh Rehat Maryada ) defines who is a SIKH ? that was posted by Mai Harinder Kaur Ji. I agree to that.

2nd ? raised in a different post was who is superior AKAL TAKHT or Sikh Rehat Maryada ? the answer i gave was AKAL TAKHT is superior in my eyes. I also said AKAL TAKHT is presently under the influence of Anti panthic Badal parwaar hence it is our job to free it from them. but there is no doubt in my mind about it's superiority. Now i don't think there is a contradiction because AKAL TAKHT is not defining who is a SIKH ?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 21, 2010)

hpannu said:


> Tejwant Singh Ji - Mai Harinder Kaur Ji posted two questions - first was who is a SIKH ? even though we say every person is a SIKH ( like JimRinX has said in his post ) that is a very broad answer and SRM ( Sikh Rehat Maryada ) defines who is a SIKH ? that was posted by Mai Harinder Kaur Ji. I agree to that.
> 
> 2nd ? raised in a different post was who is superior AKAL TAKHT or Sikh Rehat Maryada ? the answer i gave was AKAL TAKHT is superior in my eyes. I also said AKAL TAKHT is presently under the influence of Anti panthic Badal parwaar hence it is our job to free it from them. but there is no doubt in my mind about it's superiority. Now i don't think there is a contradiction because AKAL TAKHT is not defining who is a SIKH ?



Harjot Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for your response.

I have a few more questions regarding your post.

1. What should the SRM be based on and does it need changes with time as our understanding of Gurbani ideals improves with the help of SGGS, our only Guru?

2. What do you mean that Akaal Takhat is not defining Sikhs? If it were not, then it would not issue Hukumnaamas as candies the way it has  been doing recently? Can you please elaborate on this a bit?

3.Akaal Takhat is superior to what because the only Guru, our Guide we have is SGGS from where we should take our directions and learn from?

4. What do you have in mind to santise the Akaal Takhat which, as you rightfully said is in the hands of the politicos  and has been for a very long time?

Please share your suggestions and thoughts with us.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## JimRinX (Jul 21, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh ji
As a currently very persecuted Buddhist (Sikh-leaning), in America, I know what it's like to have it be demanded that I renounce my beliefs; and, though I cannot say I've ever been - or will ever likely be - hunted down, like an animal, as the Sikhs of Southern Asia and elsewhere have been before, I can relate to how you must feel; but still, giving into the temptation to drive away - or alienate - those who've not shared your struggle, or who've taken to the exits when the poo is about to collide with the rotary impeller, is to *allow those who've done these things to you to WIN!*
Though I haven't studied Sikhism as well as I intend to, I know that the Guru Granth Sahib contains True Dharma, and that it thus is indeed a belief for all people in all places; so I hope you can find it in yourself to forgive the wrongs done to you, in the name of bringing more Dharma - be it the teachings of Gautama, Lau Tzu, or Guru Nanak ji - into all of 'the four corners of the world'.
The World needs you, Sikhi - just as much as they need the Dalai Lama, and the various Yogic Practitioners; as achieving Unity, for the sake of the Planet, and the Human Race, are of tantamount importance, as the Oceans Acidulate, andthe Air grows ever nastier.
Open your heart - put aside the past; most of those who practice the various other 'Faiths' are too busy tearing at each other throats - in "The Name of God" - or they're awaiting some kind of Miracle to 'save them' from their own stupidity, to be bothered with these Important Things.
WE are better than that - even those who run and hide when the Hot Plates are being laid upon the fire.
Peace!ikonkaar


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## kds1980 (Jul 21, 2010)

> put aside the past; most of those who practice the various other 'Faiths' are too busy tearing at each other throats - in "The Name of God" - or they're awaiting some kind of Miracle to 'save them' from their own stupidity, to be bothered with these Important Things.
> WE are better than that - even those who run and hide when the Hot Plates are being laid upon the fire.
> Peace!



I am not stuck in past,but I also don't forget reality.Sixth Guru ,Guru hargobind ji himself introduced political element in sikhism.If our Guru's wanted they could had never introduced
political element.

Jimrx ji

Do you even know how many bhakti movements were  even started in India.How many survived today,how many have their independent identity? I guess very few or none.The fact is law of survival is applicable to everybody whether it is a religion,culture,race,language.


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## spnadmin (Jul 21, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh ji

It would be good if you expanded a bit more on the connection you are making between "politics" "miri piri" and the items on the poll with this thread.

Many items on the poll seem to more customary practices of Sikhs, which we consider moral or ethical. Some points could have political connection - such as being a member of a dera. Others -- well it is hard to see the politics. 

For other parts of the poll, the political connection is almost impossible to see. For example dying one's beard, where is the political connection?

Smoking is specifically mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib as a negative. 

But would you explain how engaging in a profession that might not be consistent with Sikh values is political. For example, operating a grocery store where cigarettes and alcohol are sold? I myself am not sure how that is political?

Or perhaps even having a personal guru. Where is the connection with politics?

Admittedly we have already stipulated that Sikhism flourished during the raj of Ranjit Siingh. Yet, there were many practices during the times of Maharaja Ranjit Singh that went contrary to our present understanding of Sikh values. He trimmed his beard. He had more than one wife. Some of his wives came to Sati at his death. He had a dalliance with a dancing girl, and yes he took his punishment for that. Under his rule alcohol was consumed to excess at marriages of his underlings. His funeral included both Sikh and Hindu rites. But during that time did anyone say, You are not a Sikh if you have a concubine? or because your attitude toward alcohol is lax? 

Sikhism continued in spite of polygamy, alcohol, the concubinage, Hindu observances such as sati, and more that I have not listed.  The SinghSaba movement and the Rehat Maryada have given Sikhism the form it has today. But no one questions whether Ranjit Singh was a Sikh.


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## kds1980 (Jul 21, 2010)

> Many items on the poll seem to more customary practices of Sikhs, which we consider moral or ethical. Some points could have political connection - such as being a member of a dera. Others -- well it is hard to see the politics.
> 
> 
> For other parts of the poll, the political connection is almost impossible to see. For example dying one's beard, where is the political connection?
> ...



In the end it is upto a person how to practice and follow a religion.No other person can know whether the other person is truly following a religion or not.But on the other hand many of do's and don'ts  of sikhism comes from SRM which was made by Akal takhat(political body of sikhs) so political element do comes in



> Admittedly we have already stipulated that Sikhism flourished during the raj of Ranjit Siingh. Yet, there were many practices during the times of Maharaja Ranjit Singh that went contrary to our present understanding of Sikh values. He trimmed his beard. He had more than one wife. Some of his wives came to Sati at his death. He had a dalliance with a dancing girl, and yes he took his punishment for that. Under his rule alcohol was consumed to excess at marriages of his underlings. His funeral included both Sikh and Hindu rites. But during that time did anyone say, You are not a Sikh if you have a concubine? or because your attitude toward alcohol is lax?
> 
> 
> Sikhism continued in spite of polygamy, alcohol, the concubinage, Hindu observances such as sati, and more that I have not listed. The SinghSaba movement and the Rehat Maryada have given Sikhism the form it has today. But no one questions whether Ranjit Singh was a Sikh.



Ranjit singh was a king and kings of all religion use to manupilate  religions.If I am not wrong muslim men are not allowed to have more than 4 wives yet all the muslim rulers of India maintained their harams with 100s of queens.May be at the time of Ranjit singh some people do want to say that he is doing wrong from sikhism point of view but becaus eof his power they were afraid


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## spnadmin (Jul 21, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh ji

I am repeating my earlier post in part because I am still not seeing the connection with politics, and do not understand how the survival of Sikhi depends on excluding individuals who stray, or how Sikhs can identified as Not Sikh in terms of items on the poll. 



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Kanwardeep Singh ji
> 
> 
> Many items on the poll seem to more customary practices of Sikhs, which we consider moral or ethical. Some points could have political connection - such as being a member of a dera. Others -- well it is hard to see the politics.
> ...



What I am reading is that *"You are not a Sikh if you .......trim hair, practice a profession that is not consistent with Sikh values, etc,

*Now if the survival of Sikhism depends on excluding people who do not conform strictly to traditional views, there is a problem. It cannot be proved. Ranjit Singh is a prime example of why this kind of thinking does not add up.

I will stop for now.


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## hpannu (Jul 21, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Harjot Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Tejwant Singh Ji - Please don't take this as a offense I will try my best to answer your questions to the best of my ability.
1. As soon as Rehat Maryada is mentioned in Gurduara Sahib Management committee members go on the offensive - which Rehat Maryada ? there are hundreds of Rehat Maryada's. Infact we can make one right now as we communicate with each other. The Rehat Maryada in ?  is Sikh Rehat Maryada (i will refer in short as SRM) which was approved by the Panth in 1936 adopted by SGPC in 1947. Sikh Scholars involved in drafting this rehat maryada were Principal Teja Singh, Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, Bhai Vir Singh, Akali Kaur Singh and many others. This draft was sent throughout the world USA, CANADA, KENYA, MALAYSIA and other countries. This whole process started in 1925 and completed in 1936. This SRM is PANTH PARWAN. All other Rehat Maryada's are individual efforts some good some questionable. 

Now comes the part of improving it based on understanding of Guru Granth Sahib. If you can get the PANTH together once again I will touch your feet. All individual efforts are not accepted - there are many to choose from. The first thing of importance is taking over SGPC control from Badal/RSS group. I have wasted my 10 years in Gurduara Management and now i am more happy teaching Gurmukhi to our next generation.

2. the 2nd ? - the context posted from SRM about who is a SIKH ? by Mai Ji is from SRM not by AKAAL TAKHT. Hukamnamas/AKAAL TAKHT is under Seige by BADAL/RSS Group. Let's take it over from them.

3. ? I never questioned the superiority of Guru Granth Sahib. Mai Ji questioned who is more superior AKAAL TAKHT or SRM ? my only answer is 
AKAAL TAKHT. My reasoning is if we don't have a central authority to resolve questionable Panth matters ? we will all fight over nick bits and there will no conclusions. You will not be able to convince me and I will not be able to convince you. Believe me i have been in Gurduara meetings where everything comes to board - for example - Can a person with socks sit and do PATH from GURU GRANTH SAHIB ? my obvious answer was NO. the opposition was where is it written in GURU GRANTH SAHIB - that a person cannot sit with socks to do PATH from GURU GRANTH SAHIB. and this is only a little example - there were bigger issues too, when we had to conclude what's accepted at AKAAL TAKHT SAHIB is accepted here.

4. Taking over the control of SGPC is ....... ?  lately i have been asking my relatives back in Punjab who is a SGPC member to cast votes. I think we overseas SIKHS should all make a joint effort to call our relatives to get active in SGPC membership since it is a Parliament of SIKHS and run a parallel government. I know it's not going to be easy. The current political situation in Punjab is Congress is supported by Central Government and Crores and Crores of Rs is spent to take over Punjab ( poor people's money down the drain ). Akalis(Badal/RSS group) on the other hand are using the SGPC funds to fight for control ( playing religous sentiments - misusing money for personal gains - NO PARCHAR going on )swordfight
Bhul Chuk Maaf


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## JimRinX (Jul 21, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh ji
I know that hundreds, if not thousands, of Bhakti have been established and then been devoted to, to one degree or another, in India/Pakistan; and I know that, no matter what, the Sikhi have embraced them all.
To me, that's the most important part of being a 'Sikh' - not whether or not you cut your hair, eat meat, sleep around (or not), or would want to further partition a piece of dirt that your Leaders wisely chose not to endorse the partitioning of, as much it has been, in the first place.
You may not live in the past, but I see, and feel, in your words that the Pain of teh past is still affecting most of you (forgive me if I'm being too personal - or just plain wrong); and, so, I was merely being the ever-hopeful optimist that I am, in trying to encourage you to embrace the Values of not just Tollerance - but Universal Love that I see going out the window in many other places, when those who practice other supposedly Tollerant Faiths, begin using Orthodoxy as an excuse to be IN-tollerant.
I'm, of course, not accusing you of doing anything wrong; all that you have said is justified and justifiable; I was simply trying to encourage you to attribute only the best parts of the Sikhi Philosophy - rather than giving into the Evils of Fanaticism that tend to go hand in hand with what you're calling the 'Tallibanized' version of Sikhism that, perhaps, is a little too Proud for Our Beautiful Lords taste.
Still, I'm just a 'not-so-ignorant-American' who'se yet to have the Pleasure of traveling to India; so I acknowledge that I am, perhaps, unfit to judge these things.
From my, perhaps imperfect, point of view, it would seem to me that the Sikhi are uniquely positioned - and widely respected enough - to make a whole lot of Peace happen in your oh-so troubled part of the world; and it's only by holding more dear your Tradition of Tollerance - and holding others to it, as well (For Example: Muslim Pride, I've found, is a Mighty Lever indeed; when you 'out tradition' them in their traditions!) - than your desire to (forgive me!) feel "Special", due to your (self-perceived?) 'superior adherence' to some Dogma, and the Evils of Pride therein, that will enable people like US to be most effective in our pursuit of this Noble Task.
My Soldiers are dying - and Innocents are being needlessly killed; all in the Name of God, as interpreted by (largely) Ignorant Fanatics - who've grown Drunk on their own Pridefulness!
The World cannot afford the 'Carbon Footprint' of all this Conflict!
I'm assured that neither you, nor any other Sikh - "Real", or otherwise - will ever give into these Evils; and that WE, by being Dharma, can set a Golden Example for these others to follow!
Let ius Hope, at least!
Peace, my Good Jios!


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## Randip Singh (Jul 22, 2010)

Well If you and Amritdhari Sikh, then the following 4 things must be avoided:


In the Rehit Marayada (http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html), Section Six, it states: 


 *The undermentioned four  transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided 

1. Dishonouring the hair;
2. Eating the meat of an animal  slaughtered the Muslim way(Kutha); 
3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse
4. Using tobacco.


Sikh Rehit  Maryada *


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## spnadmin (Jul 22, 2010)

Randip Singh said:


> Well If you and Amritdhari Sikh, then the following 4 things must be avoided:
> 
> 
> In the Rehit Marayada (http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html), Section Six, it states:
> ...



Randip ji

That is so true. But are you no longer a Sikh if you transgress. Am I wrong?


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## kds1980 (Jul 22, 2010)

> What I am reading is that "You are not a Sikh if you .......trim hair, practice a profession that is not consistent with Sikh values, etc,
> 
> Now if the survival of Sikhism depends on excluding people who do not conform strictly to traditional views, there is a problem. It cannot be proved. Ranjit Singh is a prime example of why this kind of thinking does not add up.
> 
> I will stop for now.



The defination of a sikh can neither be all inclusive neither it can be all exclusive.If tomorrow 30 million followers of a baba declare themselves sikhs and and say that their personal Guru should accepted as 12th Guru of sikhism then what?

In all religions there are all kinds of people .Fully practicing,semi practicing,non practicing but still calling themselves sikhs and apostates who declare themselves as non sikhs .In the example you have given that if a sikh become victim of hate crime then could sikh organisation fight for it.I will say yes they can fight him as non practising sikh.But on the other hand if that person become multi millionare or billionare after opening his brands of cigrattes  then I don't think any sikh site or magazine will publish his story


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## spnadmin (Jul 22, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh ji

Thank you for your thoughtful answer, for taking the time. What often disturbs me about these discussions is something more humble and close to home. I have now made acquaintance with many Sikhs who are keshdhari. In their families are many who do not keep hair. Brothers and sisters, uncles and their children. Do we conclude that their relatives are not Sikhs that easily.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jul 22, 2010)

Randip Singh said:


> Well If you and Amritdhari Sikh, then the following 4 things must be avoided:
> 
> 
> In the Rehit Marayada (http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html), Section Six, it states:
> ...



If you are Amritdhari and so any of these four, you have lost Amrit and need to retake if you wish to be a Khalsa.

If you are not Amritdhari and do any of these, you are still a very bad girl!  :disguestedkudi:  Or boy!    But you are still a Sikh, imokudihugmundahug


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## Rupinder.Singh (Jul 24, 2010)

Sat Sri Akal (to my bros/sis who understand this)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh (to my bros/sis who think the first one is not complete)

Salaam (to my bros/sis who only understand this)

Namaste (to my bros/sis who only understand this)

Good Day (hopefully everyone will understand this)


I ask everyone a question, spot a difference among all the above greetings..we can come up with thousands....

Now, spot a common thing among all the above greetings...imo there is only one and that is "underlying intention".

This underlying intention is governed by "MANN", and Whole of Gurbani revolves around freeing the "MANN". 

Sikh--in plain language means "A Learner", and to be a learner does not require one to fit in certain framework. Any one can be a learner in any form, at any age.

When a learner stops learning, he is no more a learner, and so is no more a Sikh.

ਪੰਨਾ 727, ਸਤਰ 8
ਬੰਦੇ ਖੋਜੁ ਦਿਲ ਹਰ ਰੋਜ ਨਾ ਫਿਰੁ ਪਰੇਸਾਨੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
O human being, search your own heart every day, and do not wander around in confusion

Guru ji asked us to search our "MANN" and learn from it, everyday. Guru ji never said do it till u are 45yo, or only after 45 yo or any other constraint.

I am a learner, and no one can stop me from learning. So is a Sikh..no time dependent entity can stop a sikh from being a sikh.

Learning process is like a multi staged game, you can only see next stage if you have cleared the previous stage. So the learner (player) learns as they progress ahead.

Now if today I have learnt that smoking is not good for health, then I will stop smoking from today, if tomorrow I somehow learn that drinking is not good either, I will stop drinking but that will happen only after tomorrow...but if someone accuses me today that I am not learning...then you guess who is at fault...I would say..I am learning but probably not at a pace you expect me to...but that never means I am not a learner

Same is true with a Sikh, A Sikh is never meant to be completely learned, coz once one considers himself completely learned..there is no more learning.. and there will be no more sikh in him...

This Thread's initial theme was to classify a sikh, IMO classification is not a Sikh principle. Because classification is based on attributes, and attributes are only limited to human understanding.

Sikh is meant to be truly free. And that is the definition of a SIKH

Regarding submitting articles on Sikhchic.com, my opinion is learn from everyone, learn from everything, being selective will only reduce my chances to learn more. If we say only people with certain attributes.. can talk/write..that means we are not giving others a chance to learn, or share their knowledge..or are afraid that it may contradict our own beliefs/practices. or we dont want to acknowledge their learnings. these states are not states of a free mind. *A true Sikh should be open to all and open for all.*

Just wanna add one more thing here, if someone tells me to smoke a ciggie, and I start smoking...*it is not called learning*..*It is called* *following*. So Sikh(Learner) has to make sure they are learning..and not just following.

Religion is a classification of people by people for people. and so are the sub-divisions of any religion. It has nothing to do with GOD. 

I hope I am making some sense ...

Bhul Chuk Maaf ji,

Rupinder Singh

mundahug


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 24, 2010)

Rupinder.Singh said:


> Sat Sri Akal (to my bros/sis who understand this)
> 
> Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh (to my bros/sis who think the first one is not complete)
> 
> ...




Rupinder ji,

Guru Fateh.

Well said. Thanks for this lovely input from you.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Astroboy (Jul 26, 2010)

Sikhism being the youngest of the world religions, traces its origin from Guru Nanak. Like other faiths, it assumed the character of a distinct religion only in subsequent times. Its Masters never claimed any novelty for their teachings. In fact, they laid great emphasis upon them as being the truths taught from time immemorial. To underline the universality of the spiritual message, Guru Arjan Dev (the fifth Guru), when compiling the Sri Adi Granth, the holy scripture of the Sikhs, drew the hymns and devotional pieces from the mystical writings of saints of all castes and creeds, including Kabir the Muslim weaver, Dhanna the jat, Ravi Das the cobbler and Sadna the butcher, etc.

In my syllabus from SGGS Academy Malaysia, one of the discussion books are about Life of Bhagats. The inner light--antar jot--and the inner music--panch shabd, or the five-melodies, whose music is limitless (anhad bani), are a recurring theme in nearly all of the compositions contained in the Granth Sahib.

But what have we made Sikhism look like today is a wide array of opinions all coming from the mind and not from the Guru.

Antar Guru Aradhana
Jehwa Jap Gur Nao
Netri Satgur Pekhna
Srawani Sun-na Gur Nao

The door towards true Sikhi opens from within. We have to self-introspect ourselves and criticize our own actions, and thoughts before pointing fingers at others. 

We have to rise above the worldly consciousness into the blissful state by hearing the Anhad Shabad. This is not a matter of reciting, talking, discussing or explaining but simply pure experience. Sikhism is all about the experiencing of this eternal bliss while living our lives as regular folks.


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## ballym (Jul 26, 2010)

A sikh is one who never says that his religion is best and all others are not worth a look.
 Bhai Harbans Lal Ji has rightly defined sikhi  earlier. learning from other religions are not wrong or bad.Following them exclusively and leaving sikh ideas makes one a *non-sikh*.
Surprisingly, I saw only two votes for Khalistan non-support as a sign of being sikh!
The movement did a lot of damage already. 
See, why sikhs are not coming in support of Sir Phoolka. They joined Bhindranwale out of fear only. Why not many were declarig him a saint in 1984 to even upto 2000. All this noise has started recently... and surprisingly most of the supporters may not have been bor in 1984!
That is how history is made on heresay evidence.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jul 26, 2010)

ballym said:


> A sikh is one who never says that his religion is best and all others are not worth a look.
> Bhai Harbans Lal Ji has rightly defined sikhi  earlier. learning from other religions are not wrong or bad.Following them exclusively and leaving sikh ideas makes one a *non-sikh*.
> Surprisingly, I saw only two votes for Khalistan non-support as a sign of being sikh!
> The movement did a lot of damage already.
> ...




As a long-time supporter of Khalistan and an admirer of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale Khalsa ji, I must disagree with you.  I became a Khalistani when my family was murdered in the Delhi Genocide.  My husband, however, had been one since the 1970s.  So would you really deSikh one of our shaheeds who died because he refused to cut his kes and could not deny his being a Sikh.

Ballym ji, I do not mind a bit if you do not support Khalistan, that is according to your belief and conviction, but please do not throw away those of us who do.

My husband was a Sikh.  He was also a Khalistani.  Now he is a shaheed.ikonkaar

I am a Sikh.  I am also a Khalistani.  I was unworthy of shaheedi, so I am still here to argue with you.


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## Seeker9 (Jul 27, 2010)

Dear all

Please don't take this the wrong way but I am curious as to why tobacco is so prominent in this poll and is deemed to be worse than alcohol which surely has a more rapid intoxicating effect

Incidentally, I have never smoked!


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## hpannu (Jul 28, 2010)

Seeker9 said:


> Dear all
> 
> Please don't take this the wrong way but I am curious as to why tobacco is so prominent in this poll and is deemed to be worse than alcohol which surely has a more rapid intoxicating effect
> 
> Incidentally, I have never smoked!



Dear Seeker Ji,

All intoxicants are not to be taken by any means to a SIKH. You are absolutely wright about tobacco and alcohol. Infact in SHRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB - Guru Sahib ne Sikhan noo tambaku varge chote jehe nashe ton vi varjeya hai ( Guru Sahib has asked SIKHS not to take even a tobacco -which is considered to be very light compared to other intoxicants - meaning all intoxicants are a big NO to a SIKH).

In reality now a days SIKHS say no to Tobacco and say yes to all other intoxicants. Go to Punjab and see for yourself what's going on ........ 

I hope this clarifies everything for you.

Bhul Chuk Maaf,
Harjot Singh:blueturban:


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## hpannu (Jul 28, 2010)

ballym said:


> A sikh is one who never says that his religion is best and all others are not worth a look.
> Bhai Harbans Lal Ji has rightly defined sikhi  earlier. learning from other religions are not wrong or bad.Following them exclusively and leaving sikh ideas makes one a *non-sikh*.
> Surprisingly, I saw only two votes for Khalistan non-support as a sign of being sikh!
> The movement did a lot of damage already.
> ...



Ballym Ji,

I am a supporter of Khalistan and I was there in the 80's and 90's. I did not support Khalistan out of fear of Sant Bhindrawale - infact it was the other way around. Sant Bhindranwale and all other Shaheed's of 84 were not recognized by the SIKHS till 2000 out of fear ( punjab police and government prosection of SIKHS ). 

Now I will answer some of your questions above and ask you a few questions myself -

why SIKHS are not supporting Sir Phoolka ? we SIKHS are so bad now a days we don't even recognize the person for 26 years of service to 84 victims. 

joined Bhindrawale out of fear only ? there were many supporters of Bhindranwale - both HINDUS as well as SIKHS. Even if you say HINDUS were afraid of him what did SIKHS have to fear from SANT BHINDRANWALE ?

Why not many were declarig him a saint in 1984 to even upto 2000. - i answered this above. It was the other way around - fear of prosection not fear of Bhindranwale. Remember Bhindranwale was not alive - so we were not afraid of him.

All this noise has started recently... and surprisingly most of the  supporters may not have been bor in 1984! - what is wrong with asking for FREEDOM ? you live in Canada and enjoy freedom, why don't you go live in HINDUSTAN ? if you believe SIKHS are free in HINDUSTAN !

That is how history is made on heresay evidence. HISTORY is made by the winning party (because they have control). Look at our History - British overwrote it and who is going to fix it ? definately not Indian Government.swordfight


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 28, 2010)

hpannu said:


> Dear Seeker Ji,
> 
> All intoxicants are not to be taken by any means to a SIKH. You are absolutely wright about tobacco and alcohol. Infact in SHRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB - Guru Sahib ne Sikhan noo tambaku varge chote jehe nashe ton vi varjeya hai ( Guru Sahib has asked SIKHS not to take even a tobacco -which is considered to be very light compared to other intoxicants - meaning all intoxicants are a big NO to a SIKH).
> 
> ...



Harjot Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You are right about the intoxicants and their harm to our bodies and I am glad that Sikh traditions forbid the use of anything that is harmful.

 In other words any thing in access like Tea, Coffee,food like fried stuff, which is very common in our households is harmful because Gurbani says," Tun, Munn, Dhan sabh chor Guru koh, Hukam maneiyei payei".

Sikhi gives us the foundation to breed goodness within so we become aware what things are harmful and harmless.

I do not know if you have idea that there is a lot of fermentation in our stomachs when we eat food which produces alcohol inside and is harmless.

You said:



> Infact in SHRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB - Guru Sahib ne Sikhan noo tambaku varge chote jehe nashe ton vi varjeya hai


Would you be kind enough to give the whole verse where you got that from  with the page number and also along with copying and pasting the literal translation, can you also put the verse into prose in your own words and what message it brings to you?

If you happen to know Gurmukhi, as I presume you do, then you can also consult Sahib Singh darpan to express the verse in your own words.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Seeker9 (Jul 28, 2010)

I thought I would stick in my tuppence worth on the theme of the events of June 1984 and the subsequent desecration of the Golden Temple

I genuinely know little in this respect so will just make a general observation that the Golden Temple is sacred ground and I blame BOTH sides for turning it into a war zone

As for the Independent Republic of Khalistan....here's a question as I am genuinely interested in what you think and again, I have litlle knowledge myself...but is such a state a necessity or a "nice to have" or even unnecessary in terms of the Sikh faith and trying to live by Sikh values?

And how would it be implemented?

What about national issues like currency, law, taxation, defence, international trade etc.Just curious!

swordfight


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## spnadmin (Jul 28, 2010)

Seekr9 ji

I understand your eagerness to get to the bottom of things. But this will be a digression from the thread topic. So we have to stay with this thread.


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## Seeker9 (Jul 29, 2010)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Seekr9 ji
> 
> I understand your eagerness to get to the bottom of things. But this will be a digression from the thread topic. So we have to stay with this thread.


 
off course, no problem at all
Had just picked up on references to 1984 and Khalistan in earlier posts on this thread but agree we don't want to go off at a tanget!


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## ballym (Jul 29, 2010)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> I became a Khalistani when my family was murdered in the Delhi Genocide.


  As I wrote somewhere else,  two of my brothers were in Delhi at that time.
 My point is about Bhidranwale's capabilities and mismangement.
 I am for more benefits to sikhs but should be done right way.
Armed fight without real power is like committing suicide. and in this case it resulted in worse things. Sikhs are totally alienated now.
movements must be well thought out. how can a four rear movement be called a real movement?
it did more damage that good, except for people who cornered some money either on this side or police side ( who got money and medals from govt.) 
 Common Sardar got the boot.
 I am writing in a hurry. please excuse mistakes.


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## Rupinder.Singh (Jul 30, 2010)

It is rightly said , history belongs to winners.

No matter what happened to us in 1984, no matter what happened to tamils in 2009, no matter what happened to REd Shirts in 2010 in Thailand. It has over and over been proved in all these incidents, that history belongs to winners.

So anyone who is not in power, but rebels, is portrayed as Terrorist, Extremist to the rest of the world. 

And a single line from Power people, "Whatever actions were taken, were taken to restore law and order" whitewashes the whole blood shed, and the whole world  gets back to normal.


We all need to learn from this and make sure that we dont fall in this trap ever again. Dont do anything that labels us extremists, troublemakers, or anything else. 

There are communities, which are world widely profiled as extremists, we all have to make sure we dont get our community listed on that list.

Every action needs to be monitored, every thought has to align with SGGS in all aspects, then only we will attain Khalsa state, and people will be willing to migrate and live in this state. This state will not be bounded by boudaries, actually it will have no boundaries. NO one will be forced to be Khalistani, but people will themselves feel proud to be called Khalistani.


We need to raise ourselves so high that no one in the society ever questions our integrity, wisdom and love for humanity.

Only in that situation, we will be able to survive the power politics.
mundahug


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## Astroboy (Jul 30, 2010)

> Dont do anything that labels us extremists, troublemakers, or anything else.


That, in a way isn't the correct thing to do. Sikhism survived despite being labeled as extremist during the time of our Gurus. Read the life history of Guru Amar Das for example. Even during Guru Nanak's time, the Mughals like Babur locked him up in jail. But he was released with the request of holy people. Birbal tried to collect taxes from the sikhs of Guru Amar Das Ji and threatened to arrest them but he was unsuccessful. In Birbal's eyes, sikhs were trouble-maker because they alone resisted the Moghuls. The power was being held by Moghuls. If you want your name to be written in history, then you should stand out for a good cause despite being labeled a trouble-maker.


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## Rupinder.Singh (Jul 30, 2010)

Thanks Namjap ji,

Sorry I could not word it right in the first place. but you have corrected it in the right essence now.

yep..We have to stand out/up for Good cause in the right way, then we will never be labeled as troublemakers..no matter what Power People say about us...

Thanks very much.
:thumbsupp:


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## hpannu (Jul 30, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Harjot Singh ji,
> 
> 
> 
> Would you be kind enough to give the whole verse where you got that from  with the page number and also along with copying and pasting the literal translation, can you also put the verse into prose in your own words and what message it brings to you?



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SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Emphasis"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Emphasis"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/>  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!--  /* Font Definitions */  @font-face 	{font-family:Raavi; 	panose-1:2 11 5 2 4 2 4 2 2 3; 	mso-font-ch{censored}t:0; 	mso-generic-font-family:swiss; 	mso-font-pitch:variable; 	mso-font-signature:131075 0 0 0 1 0;} @font-face 	{font-family:"Cambria Math"; 	panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; 	mso-font-ch{censored}t:1; 	mso-generic-font-family:roman; 	mso-font-formatther; 	mso-font-pitch:variable; 	mso-font-signature:0 0 0 0 0 0;} @font-face 	{font-family:Calibri; 	panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; 	mso-font-ch{censored}t:0; 	mso-generic-font-family:swiss; 	mso-font-pitch:variable; 	mso-font-signature:-520092929 1073786111 9 0 415 0;}  /* Style Definitions */  p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal 	{mso-style-unhide:no; 	mso-style-qformat:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	margin-top:0in; 	margin-right:0in; 	margin-bottom:10.0pt; 	margin-left:0in; 	line-height:115%; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:11.0pt; 	font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; 	mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-bidi-font-family:Raavi; 	mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoChpDefault 	{mso-style-type:export-only; 	mso-default-props:yes; 	mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-bidi-font-family:Raavi; 	mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoPapDefault 	{mso-style-type:export-only; 	margin-bottom:10.0pt; 	line-height:115%;} @page WordSection1 	{size:8.5in 11.0in; 	margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; 	mso-header-margin:.5in; 	mso-footer-margin:.5in; 	mso-paper-source:0;} div.WordSection1 	{page:WordSection1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-priority:99; 	mso-style-qformat:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin-top:0in; 	mso-para-margin-right:0in; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; 	mso-para-margin-left:0in; 	line-height:115%; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:11.0pt; 	font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; 	mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; 	mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-bidi-font-family:Raavi; 	mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]-->  *ਸਲੋਕ ਮ:[/FONT] 3* ।। ਮਾਣਸੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਆਣਿਆ ਮਾਣਸੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਆਇ ।।[/FONT]
ਜਿਤ ਪੀਤੈ ਮਤਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਬਰਲੁ ਪਵੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਇ ।।[/FONT] 
ਆਪਣਾ ਪਰਾਇਆ ਨ ਪਛਾਣਈ ਖਸਮਹੁ ਧਕੇ ਖਾਇ ।।[/FONT] 
ਜਿਤ ਪੀਤੈ ਖਸਮੁ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਦਰਗਹ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਜਾਇ ।।[/FONT] 
ਝੂਠਾ ਮਦੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਪੀਚਈ ਜੇ ਕਾ ਪਾਰਿ ਵਸਾਇ ।।[/FONT] 
ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਸਚੁ ਮਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਿਤਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਆਇ ।।[/FONT] 
ਸਦਾ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੈ ਰੰਗ ਰਹੈ ਮਹਲੀ ਪਾਵੈ ਥਾਉ ।।[/FONT] 
​ 
ਪੰਨਾ [/FONT]554[/FONT]


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Jul 30, 2010)

hpannu said:


> <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5Chp%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <o:OfficeDocumentSettings>   <o:RelyOnVML/>   <o:AllowPNG/>  </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--><link rel="themeData" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5Chp%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx"><link rel="colorSchemeMapping" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5Chp%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <w:TrackMoves/>   <w:TrackFormatting/>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <woNotPromoteQF/>   <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther>   <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian>   <w:LidThemeComplexScript>PA</w:LidThemeComplexScript>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>    <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/>    <wontVertAlignCellWithSp/>    <wontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/>    <wontVertAlignInTxbx/>    <w:Word11KerningPairs/>    <w:CachedColBalance/>   </w:Compatibility>   <m:mathPr>    <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/>    <m:brkBin m:val="before"/>    <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/>    <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/>    <m:dispDef/>    <m:lMargin m:val="0"/>    <m:rMargin m:val="0"/>    <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/>    <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/>    <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/>    <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/>   </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" DefUnhideWhenUsed="true"   DefSemiHidden="true" DefQFormat="false" DefPriority="99"   LatentStyleCount="267">   <w:LsdException Locked="false" 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SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Emphasis"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="59" SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Table Grid"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Placeholder Text"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="No Spacing"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2"/>   <w:LsdException 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mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;     mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;     mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-bidi-font-family:Raavi;     mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoChpDefault     {mso-style-type:export-only;     mso-default-props:yes;     mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;     mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;     mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;     mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-bidi-font-family:Raavi;     mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoPapDefault     {mso-style-type:export-only;     margin-bottom:10.0pt;     line-height:115%;} @page WordSection1     {size:8.5in 11.0in;     margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;     mso-header-margin:.5in;     mso-footer-margin:.5in;     mso-paper-source:0;} div.WordSection1     {page:WordSection1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-priority:99;     mso-style-qformat:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin-top:0in;     mso-para-margin-right:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt;     mso-para-margin-left:0in;     line-height:115%;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:11.0pt;     font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";     mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;     mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast;     mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;     mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-bidi-font-family:Raavi;     mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]-->  *ਸਲੋਕ ਮ:[/FONT] 3* ।। ਮਾਣਸੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਆਣਿਆ ਮਾਣਸੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਆਇ ।।[/FONT]
> ਜਿਤ ਪੀਤੈ ਮਤਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਬਰਲੁ ਪਵੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਇ ।।[/FONT]
> ਆਪਣਾ ਪਰਾਇਆ ਨ ਪਛਾਣਈ ਖਸਮਹੁ ਧਕੇ ਖਾਇ ।।[/FONT]
> ਜਿਤ ਪੀਤੈ ਖਸਮੁ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਦਰਗਹ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਜਾਇ ।।[/FONT]
> ...



Harjot Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the verse, but I am afraid you forgot to read the whole post. You may be aware that many members here do not read Gurmukhi and they do not know what the above means. Many who can read Gurmukhi may also not understand what kind of message the verse is trying to convey.

Allow me to re post my request again so that we can all learn from this. The main idea is to understand Gurbani and practice it.

My initial request:



> Would you be kind enough to give the whole verse where you got that from   with the page number and also along with copying and pasting the  literal translation, can you also put the verse into prose in your own  words and what message it brings to you?



Please share your Gurmat wisdom with us.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## hpannu (Aug 2, 2010)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Harjot Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Tejwant Singh Ji - first of all i apologize for the late reply. i will tell you my reason. I really don't like to translate GURBANI as requested by you because when posted on the Internet using blogs there is no control on the responses and don't want to get into an argument over it. Also you might know more than me. The only thing i can suggest to users who don't know GURBANI is to make a good effort to learn it. GURSIKH di sangat vich raho. For every SIKH out there learning GURBANI is a must there are no other choices. My response to the message might have been little different than the one i am posting.

I am cut pasting the transliteration as well as interpretation of the message from <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; ch{censored}t=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CKPannu%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>   </w:Compatibility>   <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!--  /* Style Definitions */  p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal 	{mso-style-parent:""; 	margin:0in; 	margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:12.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink 	{color:blue; 	text-decoration:underline; 	text-underline:single;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed 	{colorurple; 	text-decoration:underline; 	text-underline:single;} p 	{mso-margin-top-alt:auto; 	margin-right:0in; 	mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; 	margin-left:0in; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:12.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.EmailStyle17 	{mso-style-typeersonal; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; 	mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt; 	font-family:Arial; 	mso-ascii-font-family:Arial; 	mso-hansi-font-family:Arial; 	mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;} @page Section1 	{size:8.5in 11.0in; 	margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; 	mso-header-margin:.5in; 	mso-footer-margin:.5in; 	mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 	{page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0in; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:10.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-ansi-language:#0400; 	mso-fareast-language:#0400; 	mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->  http://www.srigurugranth.org/0554.html 


slok mÚ 3 ] (554-13)
salok mehlaa 3.
Shalok, Third Mehl:
mwxsu BirAw AwixAw mwxsu  BirAw Awie ] (554-13)
maanas bhari-aa aani-aa  maanas bhari-aa aa-ay.
One person brings a  full bottle, and another fills his cup.
ijqu pIqY miq dUir hoie  brlu pvY ivic Awie ] (554-14)
jit peetai mat door  ho-ay baral pavai vich aa-ay.
Drinking the wine,  his intelligence departs, and madness enters his mind;
Awpxw prwieAw n pCwxeI  Ksmhu Dky Kwie ] (554-14)
aapnaa paraa-i-aa na pachhaan-ee  khasmahu Dhakay khaa-ay.
he cannot  distinguish between his own and others, and he is struck down by his  Lord and Master.
ijqu pIqY Ksmu ivsrY drgh  imlY sjwie ] (554-15)
jit peetai khasam  visrai dargeh milai sajaa-ay.
Drinking it, he  forgets his Lord and Master, and he is punished in the Court of the  Lord.
JUTw mdu mUil n pIceI jy  kw pwir vswie ] (554-15)
jhoothaa mad  mool na peech-ee jay kaa paar vasaa-ay.
Do not drink the  false wine at all, if it is in your power.
nwnk ndrI scu mdu pweIAY  siqguru imlY ijsu Awie ] (554-16)
naanak nadree sach mad  paa-ee-ai satgur milai jis aa-ay.
O Nanak, the True  Guru comes and meets the mortal; by His Grace, one obtains the True  Wine.
sdw swihb kY rMig rhY mhlI  pwvY Qwau ]1] (554-16)
sadaa saahib kai rang rahai  mahlee paavai thaa-o. ||1||
He shall dwell  forever in the Love of the Lord Master, and obtain a seat in the Mansion  of His Presence. ||1||


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## Rupinder.Singh (Aug 2, 2010)

=========For the ease of readability of readers===========
Source: http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=554&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=1

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Page # : 544

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੩ ॥   ਮਾਣਸੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਆਣਿਆ ਮਾਣਸੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਆਇ ॥   ਜਿਤੁ ਪੀਤੈ ਮਤਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਬਰਲੁ ਪਵੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਇ ॥   ਆਪਣਾ ਪਰਾਇਆ ਨ ਪਛਾਣਈ ਖਸਮਹੁ ਧਕੇ ਖਾਇ ॥   ਜਿਤੁ ਪੀਤੈ ਖਸਮੁ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਦਰਗਹ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥   ਝੂਠਾ ਮਦੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਪੀਚਈ ਜੇ ਕਾ ਪਾਰਿ ਵਸਾਇ ॥   ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਸਚੁ ਮਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਆਇ ॥   ਸਦਾ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਹੈ ਮਹਲੀ ਪਾਵੈ ਥਾਉ ॥੧॥  

सलोक मः ३ ॥   माणसु भरिआ आणिआ माणसु भरिआ आइ ॥   जितु पीतै मति दूरि होइ बरलु पवै विचि आइ ॥   आपणा पराइआ न पछाणई खसमहु धके खाइ ॥   जितु पीतै खसमु विसरै दरगह मिलै सजाइ ॥   झूठा मदु मूलि न पीचई जे का पारि वसाइ ॥   नानक नदरी सचु मदु पाईऐ सतिगुरु मिलै जिसु आइ ॥   सदा साहिब कै रंगि रहै महली पावै थाउ ॥१॥  

Salok mėhlā 3.   Māṇas bẖari▫ā āṇi▫ā māṇas bẖari▫ā ā▫e.   Jiṯ pīṯai maṯ ḏūr ho▫e baral pavai vicẖ ā▫e.   Āpṇā parā▫i▫ā na pacẖẖāṇ▫ī kẖasmahu ḏẖake kẖā▫e.   Jiṯ pīṯai kẖasam visrai ḏargėh milai sajā▫e.   Jẖūṯẖā maḏ mūl na pīcẖ▫ī je kā pār vasā▫e.   Nānak naḏrī sacẖ maḏ pā▫ī▫ai saṯgur milai jis ā▫e.   Saḏā sāhib kai rang rahai mahlī pāvai thā▫o. ||1||  

Shalok, Third Mehl:   One person brings a full bottle, and another fills his cup.   Drinking the wine, his intelligence departs, and madness enters his mind;   he cannot distinguish between his own and others, and he is struck down by his Lord and Master.   Drinking it, he forgets his Lord and Master, and he is punished in the Court of the Lord.   Do not drink the false wine at all, if it is in your power.   O Nanak, the True Guru comes and meets the mortal; by His Grace, one obtains the True Wine.   He shall dwell forever in the Love of the Lord Master, and obtain a seat in the Mansion of His Presence. ||1||  

ਮਾਣਸੁ = ਮਨੁੱਖ। ਆਣਿਆ = ਲਿਆਂਦਾ ਗਿਆ (ਭਾਵ, ਜੰਮਿਆ)। ਆਇ = ਆ ਕੇ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਨਮ ਲੈ ਕੇ)। ਭਰਿਆ = ਲਿਬੜਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ; (ਸ਼ਰਾਬ ਆਦਿਕ ਦੀ ਭੈੜੀ ਵਾਦੀ ਵਿਚ) ਫਸਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ। ਬਰਲੁ = ਝੱਲਪੁਣਾ। ਪੀਚਈ = ਪੀਣਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ। ਜੇ ਕਾ = ਜਿਥੋਂ ਤਕ। ਪਾਰਿ ਵਸਾਇ = ਵੱਸ ਚੱਲੇ।੧।

ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਨਾਲ) ਲਿਬੜਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ (ਏਥੇ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ) ਲਿਆਂਦਾ ਗਿਆ, ਉਹ ਏਥੇ ਆ ਕੇ (ਹੋਰ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ) ਲਿੱਬੜਦਾ ਹੈ (ਤੇ ਸ਼ਰਾਬ ਆਦਿਕ ਕੁਕਰਮ ਵਿਚ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ), ਪਰ ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਪੀਤਿਆਂ ਅਕਲ ਦੂਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਬਕਣ ਦਾ ਜੋਸ਼ ਆ ਚੜ੍ਹਦਾ ਹੈ, ਆਪਣੇ ਪਰਾਏ ਦੀ ਪਛਾਣ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ, ਮਾਲਕ ਵੱਲੋਂ ਧੱਕੇ ਪੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਪੀਤਿਆਂ ਖਸਮ ਵਿਸਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਵਿਚ ਸਜ਼ਾ ਮਿਲਦੀ ਹੈ, ਐਸਾ ਚੰਦਰਾ ਸ਼ਰਾਬ, ਜਿਥੋਂ ਤਕ ਵੱਸ ਚੱਲੇ ਕਦੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੀਣਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਮੇਹਰ ਦੀ ਨਜ਼ਰ ਨਾਲ 'ਨਾਮ'-ਰੂਪ ਨਸ਼ਾ (ਉਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ) ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਆ ਕੇ ਮਿਲ ਪਏ, ਉਹ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਸਦਾ ਮਾਲਕ ਦੇ (ਨਾਮ ਦੇ) ਰੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਵਿਚ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਥਾਂ (ਭਾਵ, ਇੱਜ਼ਤ) ਮਿਲਦੀ ਹੈ।੧।


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## findingmyway (Sep 23, 2010)

hpannu said:


> Tejwant Singh Ji - first of all i apologize for the late reply. i will tell you my reason. I really don't like to translate GURBANI as requested by you because when posted on the Internet using blogs there is no control on the responses and don't want to get into an argument over it. Also you might know more than me. The only thing i can suggest to users who don't know GURBANI is to make a good effort to learn it. GURSIKH di sangat vich raho. For every SIKH out there learning GURBANI is a must there are no other choices. My response to the message might have been little different than the one i am posting.




Dear hpannu ji,
I respect your views. However, I would like to add that the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written in poetry so even learning Gurmukhi, sometimes things are not easy to understand. Only by each of us sharing our own understanding can we maximise our learning. It's like learning any language in a peer group-you do it together with other aids. With each contributing party, the knowledge base increases and enriches us


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## findingmyway (Sep 23, 2010)

Back to the thread:
I see Sikhism as a journey. We are all at different points on that journey so why should we judge those at a different place? First we should look inside ourselves carefully then we can encourage others to progress further. As long as someone wants to walk the path and shows that by taking steps then they are a Sikh. If someone takes a detour then we should encourage them to return rather than alienating them by saying you are no longer a Sikh. If they reject the pathway outright and fork off in another direction then by all means take away the title of Sikh!!
Jasleen kudihug


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Sep 23, 2010)

findingmyway said:


> Back to the thread:
> I see Sikhism as a journey. We are all at different points on that journey so why should we judge those at a different place? First we should look inside ourselves carefully then we can encourage others to progress further. As long as someone wants to walk the path and shows that by taking steps then they are a Sikh. If someone takes a detour then we should encourage them to return rather than alienating them by saying you are no longer a Sikh. If they reject the pathway outright and fork off in another direction then by all means take away the title of Sikh!!
> Jasleen kudihug



And, of course, we must always be ready to welcome them back if and when they return!  

kaurhugkudihugmundahug:redturban:


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