# Chat Between Sikh And Hindu Guy



## seeker3k (Jul 13, 2013)

SSA

Every one have the right to believe in what they like including me. 
I am not condemning any one. Each one chose his own ways to worship. 
My point here is if I am doing what I am condemning then I am hypocrite.
We Sikhs are going against BABE, yet most Sikhs are going to them.
Nanak was Baba. Is there some thing wrong being Baba? 

Here is conversation Gyani ji and Brahman. 

I will call Gyani as G and Brahman as B

G: Why you worship stones?
B: Why do you worship book? 

G we respect what is in the book we call it SGGS
B We builds the image of our devtas and we respect them.

G There is guru’s bani in SGGS we learn from that.
B we learn from statue same as you listen the poems yet do not understand.

B In amritsar one can buy statue of Nanak and pictures of all gurus are being sold all over.
G That is wrong we should not have stature of any Guru
B Did you try to stop any shop keeper to stop selling statue?

G you guys feed statue food, how can state eat food?
B You put food by the SGGS and prays to book to bless the food.
B you guys put water by the book and put blanket in winter and AC in summer.

B The paper on which guru’s pictures are being used to put Chole and Bhale on that paper. Then that picture is thrown on the street. People walk on it?
G  that is bad thing.

G Our guru did miracle like stop the rolling stone with one hand.
B Krishan did many miracles he hid the sun at the Maha Bharta.
G No one can stop the sun it is not true.
Do you really think that Stone Nanak stopped it by his hand?

G  You believe in casts system. You don’t think all human are same. Nanak said all humans are same.
B There were 10 gurus one was too young to have child. How many gurus married their kids in lower class? Saying is one thing doing is another.

G  Krishna had over 364 wives.  Why is that?
B  More then one is wrong, 3 of your gurus hade more then one wife? Why is that?

G  Do you think one can get better by mantar? 
B  Do you think ready dukh newaran shabad from SGGS can make one better?

G  Do you think by burning ghee and other things help sick person?
B  By burning ghee and other samagry first it clean the air. Clean area helps one to relax.
By relaxing most of the problems are solved.

G  Why do you wear janue, what does it do?
B  I really don’t know when and why it started. But why do you wear dagger?

B  It was given to us by Guru Gobind Singh when he created Khalsa. It is one kakar of 5. With that we have identity as Sikh.
As far as I know Guru gave 3 foot kirpan not 6” dagger. Who told Sikhs to wear 6” dagger?

G  I do not know how that came about. I never thought about it.

B  I think Sikhism have 3 pillars. 1 Kirt karo 2 Band- shako 3 Naam simran karo.
What is naam and how do you do the simran? Why Sikh has to read 5 banis? 

G  Guru gave us naam waheguru this is the name of GOD. 

B  If you have naam waheguru then why there is need to read 5 banis?
Is waheguru in SGGS? Or any guru Nanak gave it to second Guru or gave this naam to who ever came to see Nanak?

G  The naam waheguru is in SGGS. I think Nanak must have given this naam to second Guru. But I don’t know if Nanak gave to every one or not. 
Nanak defeated yogis when they had the meeting about meditation. Yoga is not good.

B  When yogis asked Nanak who is his guru, Nanak said my guru is SHABAD. But Nanak never any where said this is SHABAD that you should do the simran. At the meeting it was not winning or loosing it was just to share ideas. Guru said yogi jugat na jane. Nanak never condemns yoga only that yogi doesn’t know the technique.  

G  Nanak told us there is no need to do meditation just live simple life.

B  How simple is Sikh’s life? It is full of karam kand. It is as mush karm kand in Sikhism as in Hinduism.  I agree with you Nanak try to get us and you out of karam kand but we and you never got out of it. Just got deeper in to them. You have made SGGS to be afraid of. No one can touch it with out taking bath or washing hands. You have chor sahib as to keep flies away. You put book to sleep put blanket on or turn AC in hot. How come no one give bath to SGGS? All those year after year SGGS must be really dirty. You make people cover their head why is that. Can no one go to guru with out covering his head?
Which guru said that langar should be eaten sitting on floor even thou one can not bend his knees. When langar is left over they give that to public. Do these people when they take langer hom do they sit on floor to eat? I am sure and I seen people sitting on chairs to eat the very langer that in gurdwara we are made to sit on floor. Bhai ji going to read SGGS one the way he can not touch any one nor he can shake hand with any one. If he do so he has to wash his hand again, why? Sikhs in most homes have guru’s pictures. When they get up in morning they stand before guru’s picture and bow to the picture.
Bhai ji nu roti but not to Brahman?  Sikh women removing face hairs and do make up eyebrow making. Putting nath at wedding. Doing full make up like Hindu girls?
At child birth going to gurdwara to choose name of child? Having bhai ji doing ardas and paying bhai ji for that? At the death insisting of reading kertan sohla? Taking asts to Kertpur even from Foreign? It is forbidden in rehtnama. Person with chronic disease (even diabetes) can not be part of 5 pyare at the time of Amrit? Removing Khrah parsad for 5 pyare in separate. Reading Rehras in evening only and reading Japji in the morning only? Why there is raksha bandan in Sikhism? Hindus go around agni when getting married. Sikhs do the same thing but go around book? No other religion copy same marriage ceremony only Sikhs coping Hinduism? 

There are many same rituals Sikhs are doing which are in Hinduism, why is that.

If this post it up to site's standard then you may delete it before it get posted


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## sikh15 (Jul 13, 2013)

Seeker3k ji,

Gurfateh,

I have studied all of the world's major religions and practiced some of them. In all honesty, every religion's followers are corrupt. What I mean is that the vast majority of the followers of each religion are practicing things that are contrary to their particular religion's teachings. It doesn't matter if is is Hinduism, Sikhi, Jainism, Christianity, Islam, etc. The problem doesn't lay with the religions themselves, but in the people who follow them. Obviously in each religion there are followers who do practice the religion as it should be practiced. But in the majority, this is not the case from what I have seen. 

We should stop pointing out each others' faults like in the above conversation and each religion's leaders should get off their asses and educate the masses of their followers. Of course, this would assume the leaders practice the way they should and aren't corrupted by money, power, fame, etc. Sadly, I don't think this is the case.

This is just my 2 cents. I could be wrong. I could be right.

-Justin


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## seeker3k (Jul 13, 2013)

Sikh 15 ji
SSA

What you said is so common that it is not the religion it is people who are bad. Like you I have lived among many religions and studied many. I have also done meditation. Went up the montains in India stayed wit sahdus and learned.
Religion is what people live by. religion by it self can not do any thing. It is pantha is in problem so we should save the panth. It is not pant in Sikhism I am saying all the religious people use that to excite people to go to war and other bad things. Sikhs are totally againest babe but why I can not understand. If we live and let live then there be no problem.

Spirituality is diffrent thing religion is group of people who want to control people. I have not seen any sadhus doing meditation in group not even 2 sadhus do meditation. It is religions who want people to come in their church gurdwara mandar. Why for money and power.


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## arshdeep88 (Jul 13, 2013)

Exceptions are always there.
Good people are there too in every religion.
Lets not judge True meaning of religion by just some of the few fanatics.


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## seeker3k (Jul 13, 2013)

Yes they are
but why one need religion?


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## arshdeep88 (Jul 13, 2013)

Depends on how you define Religion


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## seeker3k (Jul 13, 2013)

SSA

It is not me who define religion I do not have religion.
Those who are in religion should define it


One go to school to learn. They put him/her in first class then he/she move up as time goes 
He learned what he wanted to lean in that primary school. Now he have choice to go to higher school or stay in that primary school.
If he stay he may become monitor of one class.But he can not learn higher education. He must leave that school and go to other school to leanr till he get Phd or any other degree he wanted. This is my 2 bits for religion


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## arshdeep88 (Jul 13, 2013)

Some very well move ahead in life without going to schools ,colleges .For Some going to school is enough,for some college is enough for the purpose of the life to rise ahead.

For some going to schools,colleges,then doing phds is never enough because they fail to realize the BASIC things of learning. Some learn basic things in school,some in colleges ,some in higher institutes.
Some are born with art of learning and moving ahead in life without even going to places to study.
One student excels in his life through the study provided in school,other does not.
That doesnt means the school or college( religion)is at fault
sorry tried answering from my prospective through your presented example only


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## seeker3k (Jul 13, 2013)

SSA

Intention is to learn not staying in school.
Religion and people who run the school want every one to stay in school so that they can make money and have numbers. Numbers are strength and power. When one pass what that shcool have to teach teacher tell that person now you are qualify go and do what you are good for.

In religion they try to keep us in
Let those who want n ready to go


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## arshdeep88 (Jul 13, 2013)

what if the student  loves to stay in school or the college and want to do selfless service to inspire others by being in school ?


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## seeker3k (Jul 13, 2013)

good luck


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## arshdeep88 (Jul 13, 2013)

TRUE followers of religions have been following religions  out of love and respect  not just for the name sake
Just my personal thoughts


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## seeker3k (Jul 13, 2013)

My understnading of those that they have brain washed.

this is final 
as I said in beginning every one have the right to believe what want to believe

I am no one to stop any one

discussion is only if it is logic......


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## Harry Haller (Jul 13, 2013)

> My understnading of those that they have brain washed.



I agree completely, I love that term 'brain washing', I imagine my own brain as being in need of some serious washing, cleansing, purification, 

If only it were that simple we could just remove and wash our brains, but its not, well not for some, if Sikhism is 'brain washing', I'll have a large tub of sudso please.

'sudso' washes brains whiter than all other leading brands!


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## muddymick (Jul 13, 2013)

Seeker3k ji,

Do you think that the Gurus,Sages and Saints who applied their whole lives and not inconsiderable intellects to the problems of existence were futile in such attempts?

Do you you think the methods they tried and tested that have been refined by many saintly and committed followers are pointless?

Do you you think that our comparably lazy and self indulgent modern man and women can do better?

With such a limited timespan (human life) would we be more sensible to throw out the learning and start afresh, stumbling in the dark like children?

If one wanted to be an effective doctor would one even consider not building upon the research and learning that went before?

If one wants to travel to a destination does one not use a map, made by one who has travelled that way before?

Numerous times in the west (and sometimes in the east) I have heard individuals say they follow there own faith, their own religion or their own spirituality. Yet for all these dilettantes (and I have met a few) who mix and match methods and disciplines or cherry pick what appeals and disregard that which does not. I am yet to meet one who is free of the five thieves. Or even relatively free of ego.

If the proof is in the pudding and only 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the religiously inclined loosen the fetters of the thieves, it would from all evidence seem that it is a much larger percentage than those who claim to be be able to go it alone!

I for one know I am way too stupid, delusional and lazy to go it alone.

I rely upon another's map to tell me where the pitfalls are, where the road is difficult and where the dead ends are.

( I did appreciate your original post, thanks)


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## arshdeep88 (Jul 13, 2013)

seeker Ji 
i have understood your point and i know there are many fanatics doing things just on the name of religion.
But on the brighter side there have been very great personalities too been born who have understood the true meaning of religion and have rose ahead in life and they have served their religion out of love and respect.

All the gurus followed the teachings out of love ,respect and trust of the earlier gurus.
The same religion has been followed by Baba deep singh,5 pyaare,Banda Bahadur,and in other religions can be there too but as i have very limited understanding of people of other religions so cant take names from other religions.

Its true that there have been many fanatics going on doing crazy things in the name of religion but that doesnt means religion teaches anything as such.
Its just in sheer ego a human forgets everything.

Blaming religion for this only is bit of foolishness of us i guess.


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## spnadmin (Jul 13, 2013)

seeker3k said:


> Yes they are
> but why one need religion?



I believe this is Seekr3k's core question. Not a matter of fanatics, or individuals who do not follow the teachings of a religion, or leaders who are crooks. Is religion itself the problem? Does religion create conditions for people to be fanatics and for leaders to be crooks because they have power over people?

The question is a good question. If there are so many problems within religions, does one need religion at all? If there were not so many problems within religions, does one need religion? 

Why does it exist to begin with? Particularly since there are so many examples of those who do not practice the religion they say they belong to.


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## muddymick (Jul 13, 2013)

spnadmin ji,



> I believe this is Seekr3k's core question. Not a matter of fanatics, or individuals who do not follow the teachings of a religion, or leaders who are crooks. Is religion itself the problem? Does religion create conditions for people to be fanatics and for leaders to be crooks because they have power over people?
> 
> The question is a good question. If there are so many problems within religions, does one need religion at all? If there were not so many problems within religions, does one need religion?
> 
> Why does it exist to begin with? Particularly since there are so many examples of those who do not practice the religion they say they belong to.



I would have to say if we consider religion as a tool, say a scalpel (for ease of analogy) that tool when used with good intentions and knowledge (say in the hands of a surgeon) can save lives at best, ease suffering or make life more bearable. The same tool wielded by one with bad intentions and ignorant can be used to kill, maim or threaten.

Do we blame the tool or the one who wields it? 

I think I may have said (very inadequately) why I believe we need religion. As a tool, a map and a methodology, that without it we would be as children stumbling in the dark.

At worst yes it is misused by those whose intentions are selfish and base. Without religion would those selfish base people act better, kinder?
I suspect not, I believe they would find what ever other tool was at hand to misuse and excuse their behaviour! whether it was a political ideology or a tribal cause or ethnic cause or whatever.

The problem is not religious it is ego! The symptom just sometimes wears religious garb.


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## spnadmin (Jul 13, 2013)

Let me put the question/s differently. 

If religion did not exist what would human life be like?

If religion did not exist would humankind invent religion at some point in time?

What human needs are met by religion?

Can those needs be met in other ways?

I don't have an opinion, only guesses, in answer to those questions. However, I do think they help focus Seekr3k's basic quest.


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## arshdeep88 (Jul 13, 2013)

If there were no religions we might have been following other persons who have gone through  the tough situations of life or might have trusted ourselves to go through the situations.

yes there might be many who will trust themselves to move ahead in life not relying on other people but no harm who takes a inspiration out of other person's life.

A student goes to the teacher to help him learn and move ahead in life.
And the teacher teaches only through set of rules which are tried and tested.
These rules might be called religion.

what will happen if there were was no religion to begin with then obviously religion would have come up at some time or the other,i mean it has been happening and no matter how many religions we have many  will come in future too.There are already 4200 religions approx.


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## muddymick (Jul 13, 2013)

apnadmin ji,


> If religion did not exist what would human life be like?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am not sure human life would be very different at all, as I suggested previously I believe on the evidence that man would just find other excuses for asserting his self interested ego.

Would man invent religion, Of course man would look to express his (using non religious phraseology) numinous, trans-personal experiences and to make sense of them in some theological, psychological, philosophical etc framework.
What would that be but religion  by another name?

I think we can explain what needs (or at least a limited number of those needs) are met by religion when we consider that; in the west we have had numerous scholars from a purely psychological perspective who consider healthy humans to have certain attributes. Some of those attributes in some secular models are labelled trans-personal by the likes of  William James, Carl Jung, Otto Rank, Abraham Maslow, and Roberto Assagioli. They say that man experiences the world beyond the dualistic, mechanistic models of everyday perception. Man experiences beyond the boundaries of self! Man has a yearning and need to experience the world in this way. Man has a need to express not just that need but that experience. Religion gives us both a method to experience beyond self and a language to express it.
I do realise that this is a very simple explanation and also an inadequate one, however it is just meant to be one example (I apologies for my short comings in expressing it)

Can those needs be met in other ways, Why would one want to re-invent the wheel?
Would it not be but a pale imitation?
Although expressions of the ineffable abound in music and literature, I am not sure they show a trustworthy path to direct experience.

:happysingh:


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 13, 2013)

Religion needs religion for religious purposes. 

Is religion the white bearded man with a white robe holding an ipad noting down our every blink of life?

Or is it Ms. Cruella Divine?


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## seeker3k (Jul 13, 2013)

SSA 

There are very good point in here. Thanks all who wrote.
I go on my own experience sure I ask others and discuss with many. It all depend what one want. If one ask a thief for advice about steeling many thief will say do not go there it is not a good work. Sure there be some will say yes come along I will teach you.
This is my experience I am talking about.
All religions talk and tell us about God. Yet no one has seen God. Is it not a lie to attract people into their gang? I mostly go by what Nanak said. Nanak saying is pure logic. Yet he did not tell us the truth about how to do what he was saying.
HERE I APOLOGIZES For saying this. I do not mean to insult Nanak. Give you few examples he said SHAB guru surt dhun chela. Shabd guru,guru bani. He did not say what is that shabd. I 100% believe that shabad is every thing to have experience. Maybe he did tell some people who deserve the shabad. But what can be do to deserve shabad? Sorry again waheguru is not that shabad. Bhatts used is to praised the guru they came to sing to. But one can start by any shabad it will get you started the journey. 1000 mile journey start with single step. It is our karms that make us deserving for shabad.  I am talking about my own exp here. I did explain it few times here but people sidetracked it. But not to worry things will happen when it need to.If one read the mool manter and study it then one can know. Not just read it understand it. If one need religion is needed then what religion adopted? The last word in mool manter is gur-parsad. The diffrent between parsad and elm (bhiksha) is very big. No one understand what I am saying. In Bible it is said ( in the beginning there was word. word was with god and god is word) One have to put 
predigest away. Our mother is first guru she teach us what karm to do and what not to do.As we get older we ignore what she taught us. Nanak did not start religion it is who came after him started region by putting Nanka,s name front. It is very simple yet very hard. One must have berag compassion love for all. There has been many religions and most are gone and many more will be gone too. Science will help to eliminate religions. 
SEEK YE SHELL FIND.
We are not looking not finding. We are comfortable where we are. We will kill the one who disturb us. Yes we must ask who knows. But how can I know who has been there? I must know some thing to even ask question. It is like boy goes to factory to find job.There secretory ask what work I am looking for. I say any work. She will say go and we will call you when we have any work. One should know what to ask and who to ask. Asking blind with black glasses the way, will not get you any where.


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## Brother Onam (Jul 13, 2013)

Sat Sri Akaal,
In general, I have met admirable atheists and have found them to be more courageous and inquisitive than the average religious person. Many "believers", I've found, are motivated firstly by fear and need for reassurance, and thus believe in many absurdities.
Having said that, I believe in true religion. As Muddymick has said, without religion there would be much ego-driven strife and confusion rather than some golden age of rationality. People need guidance; there's no shame in that. Seeker3k has said "no one has seen god." In the eyes of a materialist or a sceptic I can understand this. But among believers, as stated in Sukhmani Sahib, Har Har is present (and visible) in His/Her creation. 
Even as i write these words, outside the clear summer evening sky has suddenly given way to deep purple/gray storm clouds, and little swallows are careening through the electrified atmosphere in excitement. Forgive me for being sentimental or deluded, but in these clouds and in these birds, I see God. Not as a hair-brained theory of simpletons, but truly as the Divine presence of Merciful Waheguru, playing out the drama of Creation. This same ineffable Divine I see in rivers and beautiful children, in gratitude and acts of selflessness, in love between souls, in inexplicable charitable deeds; self sacrifice and fearless fight against injustice, in mountains and trees.
Waheguru: God is too wonderful to explain.


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## seeker3k (Jul 13, 2013)

Brother Onam ji
SSA

what you said about God is same old broken record. Religious people keep throwing at people and convincing them to stay in religion. There maybe a creator but so what? Does he need to be glorify and pray to worship it? Is that not ego on Goid's part. Do you know how big is universe? Did your God created only at earth or he created the whole universe? How will your payer will reach it? We are doing all this rituals for our own ego.
Read what Nanak wrote in mool manter. he dont have body he does not born. Laws has been set they are doing work with out any interference. There is no need to worship any thing or any one.
You want to stay in religion stay but dont drag others with you.
Tell me some thing where you got that waheguru as God or as shabad like those reciting for hours at a time? Did any guru use the word waheguru any where?


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## seeker3k (Jul 13, 2013)

muddymic ji

wheel was made from mud then from wood then steel laterally from rubber. Now tell me which one better?
We want to still remain in the past. That is the religion way worship the dead and past.
First we them then we see the opportunity to make money we worship them


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## Harry Haller (Jul 14, 2013)

Seekerji


I have yet to read anything in your posts that is un Sikh. You are talking about Sikhi stripped of all the corruption, so your in good company here


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## findingmyway (Jul 14, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> Let me put the question/s differently.
> 
> If religion did not exist what would human life be like?
> 
> ...



Impossible question as there has been some form of religion since the beginning of time. It is a personal thing - strength for some, guidance for others and something different for yet others. Ancient Rome has religion, Ancient Greece had religion, Ancient Egypt had religion, the Aztecs, the Vikings, Australian Aboriginals. Every single civilisation had/has religion. I have heard it said it is part of our DNA!! Therefore, imagining a world without religion is pointless. Working on understanding others and your own personal journey would be time better spent I think


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## spnadmin (Jul 14, 2013)

findingmyway said:


> Impossible question as there has been some form of religion since the beginning of time. It is a personal thing - strength for some, guidance for others and something different for yet others. Ancient Rome has religion, Ancient Greece had religion, Ancient Egypt had religion, the Aztecs, the Vikings, Australian Aboriginals. Every single civilisation had/has religion. I have heard it said it is part of our DNA!! Therefore, imagining a world without religion is pointless. Working on understanding others and your own personal journey would be time better spent I think



I don't plan to spend a lot of time on these questions for the very reasons you give. It is however my suspicion that if by some stroke of magic "religions" were wiped from the face of the earth, humans would re-invent them. Is not "religion" the invention of civilizations? The needs that are met depend on who you talk to and the society that is home to a religion. 

Religions are not "given" but seem that way. Thus the inventors pass on the flaws of their own design. The followers follow suit and create more layers of belief and ritual. When we critique any religion, are we not critiquing the shortcomings of the human mind, of the social minds, of the individual minds that invented and subscribe to them.

Voltaire: If God did not exist, man would have created him. My point: If religion did not exist, it would only be a matter of time before societies re-invented religion. The question remaining for me is "Why?" (which I think Tejwant ji answered in a probing way.)

:whatzpointsing::whatzpointsing:


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## spnadmin (Jul 14, 2013)

I forgot lol. I was asking these questions, and another set on the earlier page, to help Seekr3K along with the discussion because it was getting side-tracked.


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## seeker3k (Jul 14, 2013)

SSA

The religion as it is now is to worship God.
There will always be some sort of (society) religion. 
What I do not like ( my view does not matter to any one) is to worship some thing or some one I can not see touch talk with.

The creator if there is one must be egoistic if he want us to worship or do the prayer to him.
Very soon in future there be science as religion. But in science religion will not ask any one to worship.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 15, 2013)

Creator does not give a hoot whether you worship it or not, it is more about being in consonance with your surroundings


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 15, 2013)

seeker3k said:


> SSA
> The religion as it is now is to worship God.


What is worship? Please elaborate it.



> There will always be some sort of (society) religion.


What is the name of the society (religion) do you live in and whom do they worship in your society?



> What I do not like ( my view does not matter to any one) is to worship some thing or some one I can not see touch talk with.



So do you long for worshiping Rajneesh of Osha or any other living Dearawalas? 

What is your need behind this worship?



> The creator if there is one must be egoistic if he want us to worship or do the prayer to him.



As you live in a society (religion), your words, like everyone else does, then what is your creator like? 



> Very soon in future there be science as religion. But in science religion will not ask any one to worship.



FYI, science is nothing but an observational tool, nothing more. Hence making science a religion is oxy{censored} to say the least.

Was Guru Nanak using an observation tool when he said in Jap,"There are innumerable Universes, Galaxies and Planets"?

Was Guru Nanak using an observational tool by throwing water towards the West while Hindus were throwing it to the East?

Was Guru Nanak using an observational tool when he explained what the Hindu Aarti should really stand for?

One can go on and on.

Lastly, please explain with concrete answers what and how to worship, god and religion are related to Sikhi or do they exist at all in it? If they do how, and if they do not why not? Please quote Gurbani Shabads to express your thoughts as you have done many times earlier.

In order to do that, first you have to share your personal views about the 3 above in your own words, which are god, religion and worship.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Satyaban (Jul 15, 2013)

Excuse me for butting in but the conversation in the OP has a few inaccuracies but that is not what my comment is about.

Why does one need religion? I don't know about the need part but like minded spiritual people like to get together to share teachings and their experiences.


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## Satyaban (Jul 15, 2013)

My friend


<!-- google_ad_section_end -->Believing in what you can't see or touch is why the words "faith and belief" apply and are always used. That is what spirituality is and where one's journey begins.

It is my belief that The Creator is emanate and transcendent love. Worship and prayer and offering Prasad, food set for the deity and given to the poor, are acknowledgement of that love.

Satyaban


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