# How Do You Prove God In Sikhism?



## TigerStyleZ (Jun 6, 2011)

My Question is above, how do you prove that God exist ? For example to convert a non-religious to a sikh.


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## Enlighten Me (Jun 6, 2011)

Personally I don't think one should try persuading others into a faith.

Why would you want to convert a non-religious person when Sikhs believe that we are all equal and that we should respect people regardless of their religious belief... we are all one. Being a Sikh, atheist, agnostic, Jew etc shouldn't make a difference.


I don't think it's possible to prove or disprove God's existence. If you believe in God and you're content with that belief then why would you feel the need to go around 'converting' others... 

All you should do is share your beliefs with people, if they want to know, without having the intention to try and make them convert into something that you believe.

One thing you shouldn't do is preach to people or come across arrogant in your views arguing that what you believe is the 'truth' and that you're better than them because you have faith etc. This is a very ugly and annoying trait that I have come across whilst conversing with [some] religious people.


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## TigerStyleZ (Jun 6, 2011)

Enlighten Me, I know that... It was only an example, I mean a muslim asked me if he shows me the "Truth" , would I convert to Islam?  Then we reached a point, where he said how do you prove god. I told him i feel it, I know God is here.  I said everything has a origin... but we can´t prove that origin, because we will never get that smart as god. And don´t you want to show people the "truth", or show them that a God exists? I want to give the people a faith... could it be Islam, Christendom, Judaism  or Sikhism.....


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## Enlighten Me (Jun 6, 2011)

How will we know what the 'truth' is?

We can convince ourselves, fool ourselves into thinking that what we believe is the utmost truth but does that really make it true?

Religious discussions are good because they broaden your mind but I wouldn't burden myself thinking I should 'give the people a faith'. 

With regard to the Muslim you have spoken to, I disagree with his/her approach. Why does everything have to come back to converting... religion is highly subjective. Don't bother discussing religion with someone so arrogant who will not listen to your point of view but will try their best to convince you that what they believe is 'true' and that everything you stand for is 'wrong'... and you yourself should avoid becoming like that.

The way I see it is that we're all on a journey, we can't be sure of anything but all you can do is research, debate, question and follow your intuition. 

Religion is personal, spiritual... religion isn't a competition, proving one is better than the other... those people that see religion that way do not understand the true meaning of it.


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## bawaj (Jun 6, 2011)

TigerStyleZ said:


> My Question is above, how do you prove that God exist ? For example to convert a non-religious to a sikh.




You cannot prove that God exists in Sikhism because to define God means you have some comprehension of what God is which in a way kills god. God is unknowable and beyond time and existence.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 6, 2011)

This question has no basis...its drawing lines in water...the moment you complete one..it disappears...and YET the "line" was clearly viisble at moment of drawing....so will your "proofs" behave the same way...each one will look good for a moment..and then sink..because GOD is the WATER..not the LINES..God is PROOF !!
2. How do you wash a piece of coal so that its blackness disappears and it glows RED ? washing with MILK,,lassee..yoghurt..bleach..whatever will NOT make its blackness go away...BUT return it to the FIRE..and watch it GLOW....Man will GLOW when GOD is close !! The PROOF is FIRE...not the coal and the Coal can only prove it by returning to the FIRE...


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## Archived_Member16 (Jun 6, 2011)

*FOOD FOR THOUGHT:*

Just like you don't see butter in milk. But after churning it you can get butter.
Similarly WAHEGURU / GOD is present in HIS creation! You need to do regular & extensive churning:* seva, simran & sangat*  with total faith & determination to experience HIM personally! 

Every soul has his / her own spiritual life path to WALK, not merely TALK! ( actions , NOT words )! Thus you can eventually find your true life purpose on this earth through Waheguru / God. The key is limitless PATIENCE & PRACTICE !


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## Randip Singh (Jun 6, 2011)

TigerStyleZ said:


> My Question is above, how do you prove that God exist ? For example to convert a non-religious to a sikh.



Sikhism is a non-missionary faith. We do not convert, we attract.

Take the example of the Panj Pyaras. They volunteered themselves.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 6, 2011)

These are the questions I fire sometimes at atheists:

Before you ask yourself.. is there a God?

You should ask yourself..

Do you believe in Truth?
Do you believe in Knowledge?
Do you believe in Destiny?
Do you believe in Universe?
And its existence?
Do you believe in Your existence?

Yes, you do believe in God!


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## TigerStyleZ (Jun 6, 2011)

Thanks to all for all of these answeres, I by myself know there is a god.. I  think I asked the question wrong. Im not forcing anyone to convert to  sikhism, I wanted to attract them. So all of you are right.. Thanks... 

Special Thanks to Gyani Jarnail Singh for that nice example


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## Randip Singh (Jun 6, 2011)

Kanwaljit.Singh said:


> These are the questions I fire sometimes at atheists:
> 
> Before you ask yourself.. is there a God?
> 
> ...



Thats exactly how Bani describes Onkaar.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 7, 2011)

Although not directed at the author, I feel that anyone who insists on the proof of god, has no interest or concept in the deeper relationship. 

Knowing god is not a competition, where you get more bonuses for conversions, or extra bonuses for good actions, 

there is a proof of god that is available to anyone, its called faith


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 7, 2011)

When Science closes shop saying that everything has been discovered that needs to be discovered for humanity they would have discovered God!  Do let me know when that happens!  lol

Any religion portending to show you God, ask them to be happy and "Live and let Live" see which one's leave you alone!  Those are closer to the understanding of God.  

Sikhism gives you such a gift to be yourself and search/understand through self and Sangat study not dictation.  Choice is yours!

Challenge is to discover as much and not be discouraged that you don't discover all!mundahug  .  Let us leave some to be discovered for the generations to come.  Be at balance with as much as you have discovered and be in as much consonance with your knowledge/discovery and what is around.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## skeptic.freethinker1 (Jun 12, 2011)

harry haller said:


> there is a proof of god that is available to anyone, its called faith



Harry Haller ji,

Faith is not a proof of anything. 

By definition 'faith' means a _belief that is not based on proof_.
If you feel like it, look it up on dictionary.com. 
And believing in something without reason or proof has another name too...'superstition'. 

If a person [faith]fully believes that a black cat crossing his path would bring him bad luck, it still remains a blind superstition, no matter how much faith a person has in this silly belief.

The only difference is that we like to call our own beliefs as 'faith' and other people's beliefs as 'superstition'.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 12, 2011)

"God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things that are mighty."
St.Paul


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## Harry Haller (Jun 12, 2011)

Skepticji, 

I had a long discussion with my wife yesterday as we lay in bed, one dog cuddled in the middle of us, the other lying by my wifes feet, I tried to explain to her, as best I could about theories of wolves and Abbraxus, and the sometime mental torture of two equal and opposing bodies with completely different points of view vying for domination,. My wife has no notion of any of these things, she is a nurse, she can explain everything I feel using phsycology and logic, her analysis is almost scientific. However she uses these words and phrases to explain how I feel, and how I may help myself. I have no doubt she understands exactly what I am going through, but that is just her way of analysis and advice. 

For me, these are just words, I know in my chest beats two hearts, I know how gentle I can be as a man, and how intent on pleasure I can be as a wolf,I find it difficult to express these feelings and drives in 'normal' language, my wife confessed to me that it had been some time since she had been torn in the way I described, and was fully at peace with herself.I looked at my wife, and asked her if she had ever felt 'special', she replied that feeling special was merely a manifestation of ego, and that she was flesh and bone just like everyone else, and was making the best use of her time and body,. I was not expecting that, I expected her to say yes, as indeed I would have,it makes me wonder out of the two of us, who is further down the path, the difference is she accepts, whilst I am still looking

There is a point here, the word 'faith' to me is a highly personal word, and I think anyone with an ounce of spirituality would understand that. I cannot argue with you about dictionary references, any more than I could convince my wife that big hairy teethy wolves are my problem. Whilst my wife understood, but finds it amusing to translate my glamorous mental state into something more mundane and simple. We searchers do not need proof of god, we have it, it is our faith, not the dictionary word, but a word that means different things to different searchers. I have faith that one day man and wolf will be united, and Abbraxus will be gone, I really really believe that, and on that day, I am going to go down to my local Gurdwara and have myself baptised and put my turban back on. 

If you look deep within yourself, you will find god,. You will know it is god as deep within you there is a pool of light and information, and it is never wrong, now for me this is absolute fact, not rhetoric, Abbraxus also lives in me, there is no doubt about that too, but he is a tiresome unwelcome guest now, he gives me divine pleasure, but only for the moment, gods gifts are understanding, knowledge, forgiveness and serenity, they are not feelings or sensations, they are tools with which to live my life on this earth until I am complete. Now I can feel all this, I am sure other readers can relate in some way, but if you are going to attempt to argue this point, choose your arguments carefully, copying and pasting dictionary definitions just will not do, you are going to have to bring something to the table from within, from your own heart, this is not a competition where you get a prize for disproving everything, all you are doing is building barriers between yourself and the creator using human words. 

Anyone looking for concrete tangible proof of god is always going to be disappointed, I cannot speak for what other religions teach, although I sometimes watch them on the religious channels on TV, none are the same, some teach that this is a temporary world, and on death, if you have been a good boy, you go to heaven, where, depending on which religion you follow, there will be women, nectar, ambrosia rice pudding, no pain, no suffering. Some teach that you are born evil and will stay evil unless you have the constant vigilance of god in you. 

Whereas, good old sikhism, teaches me that there is inside of all of us a copy of the eternal truth handbook. And this handbook contains every action in every situation as the eternal truth dictates. If you can hear that voice, and tune into it, then you will turn your life on earth into heaven, and also find enlightenment. That book is your proof of god, I defy anyone not to confirm its presence within them


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 12, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Skepticji,
> 
> I had a long discussion with my wife yesterday as we lay in bed, one dog cuddled in the middle of us, the other lying by my wifes feet, I tried to explain to her, as best I could about theories of wolves and Abbraxus, and the sometime mental torture of two equal and opposing bodies with completely different points of view vying for domination,. My wife has no notion of any of these things, she is a nurse, she can explain everything I feel using phsycology and logic, her analysis is almost scientific. However she uses these words and phrases to explain how I feel, and how I may help myself. I have no doubt she understands exactly what I am going through, but that is just her way of analysis and advice.
> 
> ...


Harry Haller ji very wonderfully and truthfully stated.

None of your statements are faith or superstition.  It is extremely important to seek from inside without artificial tools or concepts.  Dialog in first person is dialog of discovery while most of others are musings, bickering or fights which ignore the great gifts residing in each and everyone of us.  

If one can not use what is within in discovery in first person, they will forever be mired in faith and superstition.  The following is self discovery statements from Baba Bulleh Shah,  Enjoy!

For those who understand Punjabi,

YouTube        - ‪Bulle Shah - Meri Bukkal de vich chor chor‬‏

YouTube        - ‪Rabbi Shergill - Bulla Ki Jaana Maen Kaun‬‏​
Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 12, 2011)

Harry Ji,
Beautiful touching post...and very personal because my dogs also sleep with us..all five of them...3 others didnt like it from day one and sleep downstairs..but the 5.. 1-3 year olds understand bed time/nitnem time like Alarm Clocks....and never had a problem with sharing my bedroom or a lost nights sleep ever...You have put forward your thoughts very nicley. Thanks esp becasue I depend on SPN to "fund" my Gurbani class discussions...so far i have never been disappointed....SPN is a gold mine due to its intelligent and articulate posters...and I can always depend on Ambarsariah ji to provide the best Video to accompany ay discussion..guaranteed.
Regards to all
jarnail singh


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## skeptic.freethinker1 (Jun 12, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Skepticji,
> 
> If you look deep within yourself, you will find god,. You will know it is god as deep within you there is a pool of light and information, and it is never wrong, now for me this is absolute fact, not rhetoric, Abbraxus also lives in me, there is no doubt about that too, but he is a tiresome unwelcome guest now, he gives me divine pleasure, but only for the moment, gods gifts are understanding, knowledge, forgiveness and serenity, they are not feelings or sensations, they are tools with which to live my life on this earth until I am complete.
> 
> Anyone looking for concrete tangible proof of god is always going to be disappointed,



Harry Haller Ji,

I understand that you have faith and you truly believe existence of God to be an absolute fact.

The issue is that the reasoning you put forward can also be applied to existence of many other things like unicorns and Santa Claus if faith is the only criteria. 

For example someone can say _"If you look deep within yourself, you will find Santa Claus,. You will know it  is Santa Claus as deep within you there is a pool of light and information, and  it is never wrong, now for me this is absolute fact, not rhetoric"_
I just took your comments and replaced the word God with Santa Claus. 

The person putting forward the above reasoning would also have faith in the existence in Santa Claus but that wouldn't really give any credibility to his claims. Then why do we have a different set of rules to judge the claims that God's existence is a fact whereas Santa Claus is just make believe!


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 12, 2011)

Well, if you want to call God Santa Claus, sure, go ahead.  You cannot name that which we normally call God. God is just a label.  Sikhs call that Truth, Waheguru, Ram, Govind, Hari, Allah. These are just labels. In order to know what is there, you have to find out on your own.

Don't take Harry's word for it. Don't take my word for it. Don't anyone's word for it. Do it yourself. Make your own tools. You'll need these tools to observe that which everyone here is calling God.

The idea is to achieve clarity of perception. You see Freethinker ji, your normal programming, your normal way of living, your conditioning prevents you from seeing it. It prevents you from realizing the truth. 

The first step is finding out what is clouding your perception exactly, what is preventing you from seeing the truth? 

To know the barriers, you will have to look inwardly because they are in you, they are part of you. You identify with them to the point where you think these barriers *are* you.

So look inwardly for as long as it takes. Come back and share the experiences. 

Peace

PS Also realize that argumentation or discourse can help you build the  tools but is not going to get you to the truth. So using that to realize "God" is going to be  futile.

Faith won't be necessary either. Only faith in yourself to turn inwardly, to introspection; that will be enough.


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 12, 2011)

skeptic.freethinker1 said:


> Harry Haller Ji,
> 
> I understand that you have faith and you truly believe existence of God to be an absolute fact.
> 
> ...


skeptic.freethinker1 thanks for your posts.  It adds a lot if you talk first person about yourself rather than try to disprove something.  

Can you please succinctly state if you for something, against something or looking for proof of God as though somebody claiming such find or ownership or path to the same.  Sikhism encourages straight speak.  Your kind of logic has been used historically to contrast, clarify and question but usually with an answer or observation.  Lot of the use of the word "faith" in Harry Haller's posts I read as "I expect to see, I expect to discover, ....", it is not stated as a blind assumption of somebody told me so or I told myself so.  

We (most that I have done dialog with) certainly in most cases are familiar with the simplistic logic you project like,  " Buffalos are black, they give milk, so all black things must give milk".  It is cute but not very value add.

Please provide your positive first hand discourse as most are doing so.  May be not the exact English that you want them to be using.

Assuming you are "Humanism" centric per your inclinations, do you believe Sikhism includes Humanism as a sub-set of values or Humanism is super set of values that includes Sikhism as a subset?  It perhaps will help everyone understand the dialog little better.

Regards for your contributions and appreciate some first person examples, experiences as if for/against (it really does not matter as that is part of discourse).

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Archived_member14 (Jun 12, 2011)

Skeptic freethinker ji,




skeptic.freethinker1 said:


> Harry Haller Ji,
> 
> I understand that you have faith and you truly believe existence of God to be an absolute fact.
> 
> ...




I don't think that the same argument applies. 
The faith being referred to is not merely directed towards the matter of existence / nonexistence. The idea of God is related to a host of experiences which act as support and seen as an indirect if not direct proof of its existence. Santa Clause on the other hand, comes from stories read or told. A child may believe in it, but there is nothing outside of the particular story upon which a person can relate and use as basis for a belief in the existence.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 13, 2011)

Science has grown big and old. We have had so many superstitions but they were debunked. We thought earth was center of universe, we have come to agree the world is not flat. But people still continue to see miracle in every walk of their life. They still believe in God and while we have what we call the atheists now, they still love to discuss how God is not there and is nothing to believe in. Man will continue to sense greatness in this Universe and 'worship' them, whether they confirm to what people think is God or not e.g. some people are big fans of flamethrowers! And talking about proof, I am amazed how lucky I am to be born Sikh, Sikhi not only completes me, it defines me how I think and I work! There is no science which can define me for the bunch of nerves that I am! Guru revealed and documented complete human (and scientific) behavior hundreds of years ago. Beat that


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## Harry Haller (Jun 13, 2011)

skeptic.freethinker1 said:


> Harry Haller Ji,
> 
> I understand that you have faith and you truly believe existence of God to be an absolute fact.
> 
> ...



Skepticji, 

My dear wife has asked me to post a thought, not to argue or debate with you, for this, she feels is not an argument or a debate with any winners and losers, more, as far as you are concerned, a practical life or death situation. 

You are searching at the moment, and searching hard, and we all owe it to ourselves to try and assist you in this search as best we can. It IS a life or death situation, for on the one hand you have a living life, and on the other hand you have a living death. Her thought is simple, look up the word love in the dictionary, read the description, and see if these puny words can sum up the feelings you have for someone you love, for a father to look at his baby, or my mother doing path and crying tears of joy. I would imagine they cannot, and all the words and all the proof in the world is not going to encapsulate the feelings of one gursikh when they are spiritually connected to the almighty. 

I have shared your fears and doubts myself, it was only a few weeks ago that my tag changed to sikhism, and even now, I refuse to believe in a white haired god sitting in the clouds, sikhism validates my belief that god is everywhere and in every living thing. In every dog, person, tree, flower, yet to me , it is not a thing I can touch or prove, it is even more simple than that, it is the truth in my heart. Wherever you find truth in its shiniest manifestation, there you will also find god. 

But these are just words , just like santa is just a word, but if you were to have faith that santa stood for all the truth in the world, then you would find him in your heart too, 

I am not perfect, the path is long and can be difficult. But again, something my wife said yesterday, is something I must take on board. I have a huge lust for life, for food, for intimacy and information. I think that just about covers the things I lust after, everything else bores me. We took the dogs out in the pouring rain, the dogs were having a great time, and I noticed how my wife seemed to share the joys and delight of the rain filled expedition,. I on the other hand did not, I was hungry, and all I could think about was food, bologna sauce, chorizo, and mince. You still exist, my wife mused, in a state of lust, be it thinking about it, doing it, or remembering it, you are like a plane being passed from one traffic control to the next, when will you enjoy what is happening to you now, look, talk to the dogs, they are desperate for your attention and your love, look at alfie rubbing himself against you, I looked at alfie, all i saw was chorizo, however, although I found it hard to forget the chorizo, the one thing I was very aware of, was that those words were truth. They were not owned by my wife, they belonged to god, they were gods words as indeed all eternal and constant truths were. 

To search for the truth as you are is commendable, but you must learn to listen and not ignore, for that is a big folly, although possibly not such a big folly as knowing what the truth is and still being unable to latch it to your heart in the way I seem to keep doinganimatedkhanda1


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 13, 2011)

Harry Ji, 

I love the way you describe your life with your wife and the dogs, I know it's not relevant but it was entertaining to read in the wolf thread and in the last post here ,I read somewhere that life is like a combination lock ,so you have to move forward and backward to unlock it. You feel you have fallen back ,but it was really another step towards your goal.
Santa probably refers to Saint Nicholas and there is no difference between a Saint and God.A freudian slip by the free thinker perhaps. 

The merit of a leap of faith is that it is not based on proof ,and faith itself is a gift .


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## spnadmin (Jun 13, 2011)

Confused said:


> Skeptic freethinker ji,
> 
> 
> The faith being referred to is not merely directed towards the matter of existence / nonexistence. The idea of God is related to a host of experiences which act as support and seen as an indirect if not direct proof of its existence. Santa Clause on the other hand, comes from stories read or told. A child may believe in it, but there is nothing outside of the particular story upon which a person can relate and use as basis for a belief in the existence.



This is wonderfully expressed, and a good analysis of the need to make distinctions, in any kind of discussion of knowing and knowledge, between knowledge which is inferred and/or observed and knowledge which is "given."


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jun 26, 2011)

In my way of understanding of messages of SGGS I find that there is no concept of GOD in Sikhism. Although the word GOD is a most respectable word for the CREATOR of the universe in other philosophies of the world.But in context of SGGS this word can not be used for any reference in Gurbaani.
What is refered in Gurbaani for the CREATOR we should try to understand this word .Gurbaani is definitely telling about the reference word for CREATOR.So why we cant think of using a proper word of Gurbaani for the Creator.?
We should be sincere to our Gurbaani first  .This is my personal observation.
This way we can understand the more real and true messages of Gurbaani.
Prakash.s.bagga


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## spnadmin (Jun 26, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> In my way of understanding of messages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji I find that there is no concept of GOD in Sikhism. Although the word GOD is a most respectable word for the CREATOR of the universe in other philosophies of the world.But in context of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji this word can not be used for any reference in Gurbaani.
> What is refered in Gurbaani for the CREATOR we should try to understand this word .Gurbaani is definitely telling about the reference word for CREATOR.So why we cant think of using a proper word of Gurbaani for the Creator.?
> We should be sincere to our Gurbaani first  .This is my personal observation.
> This way we can understand the more real and true messages of Gurbaani.
> Prakash.s.bagga



Parkash S. Bagga ji

I personally struggled with this for a long time. Then I made a distinction for myself. My own personal name for the Creator is Kartar Purakh. However, in order for Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji translations to make sense in a different language, we are limited. Limited to the words available in that language. Some people will substitute a word or phrase, even a tuk, from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, in the middle of a sentence, when they are trying to find a better word that "God." The results are not good when that reader does not understand the word, phrase, tuk. They are back to asking for an explanation. Back to GO. If a reader already knows what the word, phrase, tuk in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji means, they don't need an explanation. The only other option I see is to ban all translations completely and tell people sink or swim. You are on your own. You will have to do with any support on this project.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jun 27, 2011)

SPMADMIN Ji,
I fully agree with what you have stated. And I appreciate your stand in this regard.

The problem is related to the fact that till date our mind has accepted whatever we have been told by our prechers and scholars.We have never questioned the interpretations rather I should say we were never allowed to do so.Even today the the status is more or less the same.
It is the result of IT develom pment that we are able to interact or share our views on important subject like Gurbaabi understanding.
A time is yet to come when we would star listening and understanding the messages of Gurbaani  thru our GuRU that is SGGS.This would be the real Gurmati understanding of Gurbaani messages. I consider the sense of meaning of the word Gurmati as by or thru the view of GuR of Gurbaani. When we start doing so this should make a difference of its own.
But we shall swim for sure if we listen and understand the messages thru GuR and Sink 
if we ignore this.
Let us wait for the right times to come for this.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Jun 27, 2011)

prakash s. bagga ji,

You are so right when you point to IT as an irreversible force to get the quom thinking which is what we are supposed to do.


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 27, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga ji I find the following totally non gurbani centric (please take it as mutual discourse and not personal),



> But we shall swim for sure if we listen and understand the messages thru GuR and Sink if we ignore this.


There is no question that our Gurus and Gurbani has made it easier for the people, who study it the right way, to *understand creator and creation and the need to live in consonance with this understanding*.  As part of this understanding we also need to recognize the possible existence within unfathomable creator/creation to also have possibilities for the following,

_* .....*_ others may with no knowledge of our Gurus or their Gurbani being able to achieve or have the ability to *understand creator and creation and the need to live in consonance with this understanding*.

Even the few words in the following guide us to be open minded to the extent of never making statements that I flagged in your post,


> *ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥*
> 
> *ArQ:- *Akwl  purK ie`k hY, ijs dw nwm 'hoNd vwlw' hY jo isRStI dw rcnhwr hY, jo sB  ivc ivAwpk hY, BY qoN rihq hY, vYr-rihq hY, ijs dw srUp kwl qoN pry hY,  (Bwv, ijs dw srIr nws-rihq hY), jo jUnW ivc nhIN AwauNdw, ijs dw pRkwS  Awpxy Awp qoN hoieAw hY Aqy jo siqgurU dI ikrpw nwl imldw hY[
> 
> God/creator  is one  and is known as the truth, is the creator of all, present  everywhere, without fear, without animosity, is timeless, is not guided  by life cycles, is a self creation and is realized through its own  (God/creator) blessing.


Creator by definition just creates.  Each creation has a path and a relationship to everything else that creator has created.  Each entity in creation as part of the path in its creation has a place of transformation.  That transformation is *slow* (e.g. the melting glaciers, the dying stars, the travelling commets, etc.), *fast * (for example life forms surviving hundreds of years, humans living decades, micro-organisms transforming in seconds, etc.), *superfast *(e.g. energy-mass transformations, nuclear and wave energy transformations, virtualization where you can visualize virtually the sun faster than the light will take to travel to it in our though processes, etc.).

So the question ultimately is not about sinking or swimming but how enjoyable and worthwhile such an experience is for each winkingmunda, which we call a journey of life.  

The shortness or length of the journey at times may be inconsequential for the actual people and not so for those who surround them or are impacted by them.

















The people in the picture are as much part of the creation and quite likely never heard of Sikhism, Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, etc., but I am sure are living to their best abilities in consonance with creation that they experience around  

Just some thoughts and I welcome comments.

Regards,

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Jun 27, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji

imho prakash s. bagga was taking his lead from tuks in which Guruji uses many metaphors: I have tied myself to your raft to cross the terrible world ocean. I don't think he was nullifying the idea that the Creator is within Creation and supports and nourishes it.


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 27, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> Ambarsaria ji
> 
> imho prakash s. bagga was taking his lead from tuks in which Guruji uses many metaphors: I have tied myself to your raft to cross the terrible world ocean. I don't think he was nullifying the idea that the Creator is within Creation and supports and nourishes it.


spnadmin ji I feel no burden of your raft.  Do carry your own oar just in case lolmundahug

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Jun 27, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> spnadmin ji I feel no burden of your raft.  Do carry your own oar just in case lolmundahug
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



I was planning on jumping a ride on your raft just in case my oar malfunctioned. I do not know how much time is left on the warranty. Do you mind? I should have asked first.


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 27, 2011)

I felt Ambarsaria Ji was expressing a similar sentiment to Prakash Singh Bagga ji but in different words.

Yay! more words! icecreammunda We all love words don't we? Especially particular words. We have our own favourites. E.g. Ambarsaria ji will say "understand creation and creator" and I like the words "Tasting the Truth", which have become my favourite recently. Prakash Singh Bagga uses "swimming across the ocean".


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 27, 2011)

LOL @ all the raft stuff.


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 27, 2011)

On another funny note, I will start an organization called the 3TO.

(Good for you if you got that)


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## Ambarsaria (Jun 27, 2011)

Who can claim they are not slave to something that sits just above their eyes!  I am guilty as charged by Bhagat Singh ji,









http://www.solarnavigator.net/human_brain.htm



> *Hypothalamus*                     - The hypothalamus contains nuclei that control hormonal                     secretions from the pituitary gland. These centers govern sexual                     reproduction, eating, drinking, growth, and maternal                     behavior such as lactation (milk-production in mammals). The                     hypothalamus is also involved in almost all aspects of                     behavior, including your biological "clock," which                     is linked to the daily light-dark cycle (*circadian                     rhythms*).


Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 27, 2011)

Haha, not fair, now you are just teasing the Neurobiologist in me.

One who understands that he is a slave is known as a Bhagat (slave of God). More words for those who like them.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jun 27, 2011)

I am not against any word but I do love all words usedin SGGS  for the CREATOR.
I like the content of Bhagat Singh ji regarding context of being slave.
Let us give a thought to a point as under.

When we say GOD is ONE in reference of Gurbaani it is important to understand that the concept of GOD is ONE was very well known before revealation of Gurbaani thru NANAK and other Gurus.So what is unique in Sikh philosophy.?Sikhphilosophy is youngest in the world and has its own uniqueness .
By making use of the word GOD in Gurbaani do we promote Sikhphilosophy in right way this needs to be understood.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jun 27, 2011)

Although I respect the use of the word slave, and can completely see why it is a good choice, I personally disagree that this encapsulates the relationship between man and god., 


 the relationship between a slave and a master does not, I believe, adequately describe the relationship between the creator and the spirit. 

just my own personal opinion


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jun 27, 2011)

I feel that the Numerical Number ONE in the Symbol is not there to denote something to be ONE as distinct.Its use has great sgnificance and its  understanding can open the secrets of correct understanding of Gurbaani as a whole.
So the Symbol does not convey the meaning that CREATOR is ONE .

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jun 27, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
Well there is nothing personal so long we are deliberating and sharing the views in context of Gurbaani.Our objective is common.So we can always go ahead.

Swimming and Sinking are not non Gurbaani centric as there are several messages related to this in Gurbaani.

I have observed a change in the interpretation of your quote in Red.At the end you say Creator is realsed thru its own graceThis is absolutely OK. From this you can probably get an idea what is being refered as CREATOR in Gurbaani. Last two words for this reference being GuR Prasaadi.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 27, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Although I respect the use of the word slave, and can completely see why it is a good choice, I personally disagree that this encapsulates the relationship between man and god.,
> 
> 
> the relationship between a slave and a master does not, I believe, adequately describe the relationship between the creator and the spirit.
> ...


Harry ji, 
Perhaps these hints will help. The words are not important. What is important is that get a gist of what they point towards. I could state everything here in completely different words, and it will appear to be an entirely different philosophy. Avoid this trap. At the end of the day, you will have your own favourite set of words.

These are not my fav but let's keep going with the slave theme.

Man is already a slave. Not only to various chemicals that his body produces but also to the environment, to others actions, to forces much bigger. (He is a slave to language)

When he realizes he is a slave (not solving it mentally, or analyzing, that will only go so far), but when he actually sees his slave form, he realizes that the best way to live is to accept this, to surrender the mind. Once he surrenders to those 'great forces', he becomes free. [i am trying not to use the word God or any other substitute because generally, people tend to read the word and not what the word points to]

His perception grows, his field of view, gets bigger because he sees everything in context of his slave form and the larger forces that govern him. He becomes humble. He becomes fearless. He breaks away from society. At the same time, understands people on a much deeper level. He sees how these people are governed by forces beyond their comprehension, beyond even his own comprehension. He has learned to stop trying to comprehend it.

He gives up the search for a particular experience. As all experiences (and everything else in life) comes and goes. Nothing is permanent. Everything is impermanent. The only thing known to him is the Eternal Truth, and that's always there. He may not call it that. He may call it Waheguru, Allah, Ram, Nature, Brahman, God, Life, Truth.

In the beginning, he only gets glimpses of it but as he trains to surrender himself (he trains because that is not his normal way of living, normally he tries to control these greater forces) he starts to dwell more in the Truth.

And the truth is so simple yet it is not accepted or realized (again analysis or thinking about it, is not realization). You ready for this? Are you ready to hear the Truth? (Well, it already stated above but will state it again)

The Truth is that things are the way they are. 

That's it. Things are the way they are; the rest is just insignificant yet overly emphasized details.

Surrender to that and be at peace.

Befuddled?


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## spnadmin (Jun 27, 2011)

Ang 131

ਮਾਝ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੧ ॥ 
Mājẖ mėhlā 5 gẖar 1. 
Maajh, Fifth Mehl, First House: 

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਅਲਖੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ॥ 
Anṯar alakẖ na jā▫ī lakẖi▫ā. 
The Unseen Lord is within, but He cannot be seen. 

ਨਾਮੁ ਰਤਨੁ ਲੈ ਗੁਝਾ ਰਖਿਆ ॥ 
Nām raṯan lai gujẖā rakẖi▫ā. 
He has taken the Jewel of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and He keeps it well concealed. 

ਅਗਮੁ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਊਚਾ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਲਖਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ 
Agam agocẖar sabẖ ṯe ūcẖā gur kai sabaḏ lakẖāvaṇi▫ā. ||1|| 
The Inaccessible and Incomprehensible Lord is the highest of all. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, He is known. ||1|| 

ਹਉ ਵਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ਵਾਰੀ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਣਾਵਣਿਆ ॥  
Ha▫o vārī jī▫o vārī kal mėh nām suṇāvṇi▫ā. 
I am a sacrifice, my soul is a sacrifice, to those who chant the Naam, in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. 

ਸੰਤ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਸਚੈ ਧਾਰੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
संत पिआरे सचै धारे वडभागी दरसनु पावणिआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Sanṯ pi▫āre sacẖai ḏẖāre vadbẖāgī ḏarsan pāvṇi▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
The Beloved Saints were established by the True Lord. By great good fortune, the Blessed Vision of their Darshan is obtained. ||1||Pause|| 

ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਜਿਸੈ ਕਉ ਫਿਰਦੇ ॥ 
Sāḏẖik siḏẖ jisai ka▫o firḏe. 
The One who is sought by the Siddhas and the seekers, 

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਧਿਆਇਨਿ ਹਿਰਦੇ ॥ 
Barahme inḏar ḏẖi▫ā▫in hirḏe. 
upon whom Brahma and Indra meditate within their hearts, 

ਕੋਟਿ ਤੇਤੀਸਾ ਖੋਜਹਿ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਗਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੨॥ 
Kot ṯeṯīsā kẖojėh ṯā ka▫o gur mil hirḏai gāvaṇi▫ā. ||2|| 
whom the three hundred thirty million demi-gods search for-meeting the Guru, one comes to sing His Praises within the heart. ||2|| 

ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਤੁਧੁ ਜਾਪੇ ਪਵਨਾ ॥ 
Āṯẖ pahar ṯuḏẖ jāpe pavnā. 
Twenty-four hours a day, the wind breathes Your Name. 

ਧਰਤੀ ਸੇਵਕ ਪਾਇਕ ਚਰਨਾ ॥ 
Ḏẖarṯī sevak pā▫ik cẖarnā. 
The earth is Your servant, a slave at Your Feet. 

ਖਾਣੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ਸਭਨਾ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੩॥ 
Kẖāṇī baṇī sarab nivāsī sabẖnā kai man bẖāvṇi▫ā. ||3|| 
In the four sources of creation, and in all speech, You dwell. You are dear to the minds of all. ||3|| 

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਪੈ ॥ 
Sācẖā sāhib gurmukẖ jāpai. 
The True Lord and Master is known to the Gurmukhs. 

ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਿਞਾਪੈ ॥ 
Pūre gur kai sabaḏ siñāpai. 
He is realized through the Shabad, the Word of the Perfect Guru. 

ਜਿਨ ਪੀਆ ਸੇਈ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾਸੇ ਸਚੇ ਸਚਿ ਅਘਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੪॥ 
Jin pī▫ā se▫ī ṯaripṯāse sacẖe sacẖ agẖāvaṇi▫ā. ||4|| 
Those who drink it in are satisfied. Through the Truest of the True, they are fulfilled. ||4|| 

ਤਿਸੁ ਘਰਿ ਸਹਜਾ ਸੋਈ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ॥ 
Ŧis gẖar sahjā so▫ī suhelā. 
In the home of their own beings, they are peacefully and comfortably at ease. 

ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦ ਕਰੇ ਸਦ ਕੇਲਾ ॥ 
Anaḏ binoḏ kare saḏ kelā. 
They are blissful, enjoying pleasures, and eternally joyful. 

ਸੋ ਧਨਵੰਤਾ ਸੋ ਵਡ ਸਾਹਾ ਜੋ ਗੁਰ ਚਰਣੀ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੫॥ ५॥ 
So ḏẖanvanṯā so vad sāhā jo gur cẖarṇī man lāvaṇi▫ā. ||5|| 
They are wealthy, and the greatest kings; they center their minds on the Guru's Feet. ||5|| 

ਪਹਿਲੋ ਦੇ ਤੈਂ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਸਮਾਹਾ ॥ 
Pahilo ḏe ṯaiŉ rijak samāhā. 
First, You created nourishment; 

ਪਿਛੋ ਦੇ ਤੈਂ ਜੰਤੁ ਉਪਾਹਾ ॥  
Picẖẖo ḏe ṯaiŉ janṯ upāhā. 
then, You created the living beings. 

ਤੁਧੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਲਵੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥  
Ŧuḏẖ jevad ḏāṯā avar na su▫āmī lavai na ko▫ī lāvaṇi▫ā. ||6|| 
There is no other Giver as Great as You, O my Lord and Master. None approach or equal You. ||6|| 

ਜਿਸੁ ਤੂੰ ਤੁਠਾ ਸੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਏ ॥  
Jis ṯūŉ ṯuṯẖā so ṯuḏẖ ḏẖi▫ā▫e. 
Those who are pleasing to You meditate on You. 

ਸਾਧ ਜਨਾ ਕਾ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਕਮਾਏ ॥ 
Sāḏẖ janā kā manṯar kamā▫e. 
They practice the Mantra of the Holy. 
ਆ ॥੭॥ 
आपि तरै सगले कुल तारे तिसु दरगह ठाक न पावणिआ ॥७॥ 
Āp ṯarai sagle kul ṯāre ṯis ḏargėh ṯẖāk na pāvṇi▫ā. ||7|| 
They themselves swim across, and they save all their ancestors and families as well. In the Court of the Lord, they meet with no obstruction. ||7||

तूं बेअंतु अति मूचो मूचा ॥ 
Ŧūŉ be▫anṯ aṯ mūcẖo mūcẖā. 
You are Infinite, You are Everything! 

ਹਉ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਤੇਰੈ ਵੰਞਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਦਸਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੮॥੧॥੩੫॥ 
Ha▫o kurbāṇī ṯerai vañā Nānak ḏās ḏasāvaṇi▫ā. ||8||1||35|| 
I am a sacrifice to You. Nanak is the slave of Your slaves. ||8||1||35|| 

If we have the instinct for lsavery within us, slavery can be put to good use.


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 27, 2011)

Yes! This is why Guru Arjan Dev ji is awesome! He gives form to It so well.

Whoever is looking for proof, there's a big hint.
E.g.


> ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਤੁਧੁ ਜਾਪੇ ਪਵਨਾ ॥
> Āṯẖ pahar ṯuḏẖ jāpe pavnā.
> Twenty-four hours a day, the wind breathes Your Name.
> 
> ...



Watch out for the language trap. What it's referring to is beyond language.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 28, 2011)

spnadminji
bhagatsinghji

Yes, I have to concede that you are both correct that we are indeed all slaves to something, even the air we breathe, I have to therefore bow  myself before the truth and offer body and soul to it. 

Something bothered me hugely yesterday, I don't know quite what I was riled by, I had written how hard it would be for me to offer my head to the Guru,whilst I loved my family and dogs so, yesterday I did not understand how anyone could, with any honesty, agree to death in the name of the Guru, I mean We can all aspire to it, but if right now, this second, the call came, how many would fall short. 

In the absence of my wolf/man theory, where I spend time as man and wolf, each taking responsibility for his own actions, something stirred in me later that evening. At first I thought I was having a wolf experience, my senses felt heightened, I felt ready for action, to howl at the moon again, but I also felt something else, love.. My wife was asleep next to me, she sleeps a lot, she has a thyroid problem, Alfie was asleep on one side, and Dan was in the middle, asleep, everyone was asleep, and although I felt 'wolfish' they all looked so beautiful, things do not look beautiful when I am feeling like this normally, everything is base. It was not normal to feel so , alive and tensed, and also feel love, with relief, I realised wolf and man were still dead and gone, there needed to be some other explanation for this, subconsciously, I had been debating the 'giving the head to the Guru' question most of the day, not only would a good sikh do this, I mused, but he would be delighted to do it. I looked again at my sleeping family, something had managed to unite me in a way that I had not felt for some time, but it was not wolf and it was not man, without thinking, or speaking, deep down within me, I realised how important the faith in the Guru was. Of course he could have my head, without fear and with a smile on my lips, life goes on, people cope, looking at my family with tears in my eyes, I realised that the truth would ever shine on them whether I was on this earth or not, I felt a distinct lack of fear, and lightning of a load on my shoulders, something WAS inside me, but it was not wolf and it was not man., I closed my eyes and felt 500 years of warrior spirit welling up inside me, I felt the spirits of Baba Banda Singh, Baba Deep Singh, 40 Mukte, spirits of men who gave their heads for their Guru and the ultimate master, the truth. You cannot hide from who you are, and although it is now next day, I feel a peace and drive that was not their before, I am not as worried about money, or good food, or lust. I am also determined to enjoy every hour of every day that remains, but as closely to the parameters of the truth as laid out in the SGGS. Yes I will have bad days, but as long as I take 3 steps forward to every 1 step back, I think I will be ok

Thank you for reading


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jun 28, 2011)

The words are not important.This may be applicable to wordly words which are false because there is no definite rule to get the gist of the words they point so there is always confusion and confusion only.

Whereas the words of Gurbaani are True words delivered thru True GuRU and these words are properly indicated with the direction for understanding the true meanings of Gurbaani words.
We should try to grasp this aspect related to the true words of Gurbaani.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jun 28, 2011)

Thank you both

Harry ji Congratulations! You got a glimpse of who you really are.


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