# Correct Pronunciation Of Waheguru



## onspjo (Jan 9, 2011)

First of all, Guru Gobind Singh Sahibji de gurpurab di bahut bahut wadhai howe.

Secondly, Please help me on this:
What is the correct pronunciation of the word: Waheguru.

In Gurmukhi, there is sihari(i) to the letter h in the word waheguru. Do we pronounce it as WAAH-E-GURU or WAAH-GURU without the long A sound.

For example: In the word AAD, there is sihari to the letter d, but we don't pronounce it as AAD-E. Similarly, In Sat Shri Akal, There is Sihari to the letter t, and we say it SAT not SAT-E.

 My thinking is that there is a pause and stress to the letter where there is Sihari to the letter and not the E(long a) sound.

Thanks.


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## spnadmin (Jan 9, 2011)

> My thinking is that there is a pause and stress to the letter where there is Sihari to the letter and not the E(long a) sound.



My understanding is the sihari is pronounced 



> b) Dr. Harkirat Singh jee Gurmukhi linguistics and Gurbani Bhasha scholars from Punjabi university, Dr. Harkirat Singh jee says in his Book "GURBANI DI BHASHA TE VYAKARAN (Punjabi)" ISBN : 81-7380-323-4, "g) The short vowels /u/ and /i/ were generally pronounced in the endings of words in Apabhramsa. Absolutely, the same position is found in the case of Gurbani. So, it is against the grammatical rules of Gurbani to reject the pronunciation of these short vowels (/u/ and /i/) at the endings of the words of Gurbani. Writing always follows the pronunciation, therefore, we should try to read the old writing in tune with the old pronunciation." To look at the complete abstract please go to:
> [www.sikhpoint.com] ... p?pageno=1
> 
> c) Gurbani words with and without laga matras are different:
> ...



http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,2634,2634


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## Ishna (Jan 9, 2011)

So... are there any instances where one would NOT pronounce the sihari or unkar?

For example, should I be saying the vowles in brackets (which I don't normally say) or not?

Ek Oankar Sat(i) Nam(u) .. Purak(u), etc?

Sorry for the basic question and thanks in advance for any information.

Ishna


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## findingmyway (Jan 9, 2011)

Ishna ji,
As per my understanding the general rule is that if the sihari or aunkar come at the end, they are not pronounced but are there for grammatical purposes otherwise they are pronounced.


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## spnadmin (Jan 9, 2011)

That is a good question. I always pronounce them. Always thought they were in brackets because they fell into the class of vowels that are dependent vowels, and are diacritical marks that are voiced/written according to rules for combining them with other vowels and consonants. E.G., there is no actual letter for "ey" and the sihari when placed gives that sound. 

There are 2 classes of vowels

Independent: Ura (ੳ), Aira (ਅ) and Iri (ੲ). 

Dependent: These are combined with independent vowels and with consonants and are voiced. I am trying to put a chart up to show them. Sounds they make are in the far right column of the chart.


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## spnadmin (Jan 9, 2011)

findingmyway ji

Actually I think this is the issue being raised by Prakash S. Baggu - as to whether to voice them at the end of words or not. I hope he comes online to clarify his point.

In Kartar Purakh(u) I do pronounce the (u) as "uh" at the end. Is that incorrect? LOL I am going to have to listen to rajkaregakhalsa now to satisfy my curiosity. Hate that.


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## spnadmin (Jan 9, 2011)

I am hearing them pronounced. But ...I could also be misunderstanding the audio file. The first frame has the mool mantar. Right above there is a player to listen to the pronunciation. Hope to figure this out because it is the kind of thing that makes me obsessive. 

http://www.rajkaregakhalsa.net/JapjiSahibji.htm


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 9, 2011)

I always though the sihari and oankar were to "slant" the letter towards the vowels, rather than saying the vowel strongly. Its supposed to be subtle. I would definitely not say wa-hey-guru nor would i say wah-guru but somewhere in the middle.

You ALWAYS pronounce the siharis, etc. 
EDIT: when saying purakh(u) you do say the 'kh' with a (uh)
In case, of mat(i), you say the 't' with a (eh)

get it?


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## spnadmin (Jan 9, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> I always though the sihari and oankar were to "slant" the letter towards the vowels, rather than saying the vowel strongly. Its supposed to be subtle. I would definitely not say wa-hey-guru nor would i say wah-guru but somewhere in the middle.
> 
> You ALWAYS pronounce the siharis, etc.
> EDIT: when saying purakh(u) you do say the 'kh' with a (uh)
> ...




I agree - or at least that has been my own understanding, Bhagat ji. It is subtle but you can still hear it. Good example would be  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ prasaad(i) which would sound prasaadih  with not a lot of emphasis on the "ih." Anyway that is what I am hearing in the gurbani file.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 10, 2011)

Those who can..pls read Gurbani Viakaran by Prof Sahib Singh ...the very same Prof who wrote the SGGS Darpan..THE most established and quoted and relied upon exposition of SGGS.

1. First person to assert that Gurbani has to have GRAMMAR and RULES..and then PROVE it by writing those Grammar Rules with varied EXAMPLES from GURBANI.  Same words cna be Nouns, Proper Nouns, Verbs, Adjectives etc...the DISTINTION is made via the Markers..siharee and aunkar.

Examples:
Ak(i)l...this is a FEMALE NOUN.(F{censored}E PERSIAN WORD)..used in Bhagat Kabir jiPanna 333.. also at panna 1186 Maroo sohilleh    ( ak - siharee- l....)
Akl...ADJECTIVE... to describe ONE who...NEVER DIES..BEYOND Kal (SANSKRIT WORD)
Akl ( AKL)  kala bharpoor rahia...

Now these are IDENTICAL WORDS..having the three letters A < K> L...but one has SIHAREE before the < L > and the other has NONE !! Meanings radically different.
2. second Example"  
A(i)bgt..A - SIHAREE BGT..meaning the CREATOR
ABGT (u)....meaning ONE who HAS NOT YET BEEN MUKT..not yet achieved UNION with the A(i)BGT !! This is an ADJECTIVE.
A(i)VG(i)T...is a NOUN and its meaning is TERRIBLE CONDITION and opposite of  G(i)T

3. Very common word..NOUN..FEMALE...
Sas(u)..sas(u)......Mother in law....
Sas...........BREATH....NOUN..MALE..VERB and SINGULAR
Sa(i)s.....breath...singular...active verb...Male
Sas.....used as messag
e addressed/explanation...

4. The popular word Har..
HR...everyone..adjective..hr aadmi..every man..
H(i)r Creator - noun
Hr(u) is VERB, Future Tense, Pronoun and Singular...

Now to the PRONOUNCERS...a long time ago..BEFORE Prof Sahib Singhs book on Gurbani Grammar came along and .."DEFLATED THEIR TYRES"...in  a manner of speaking....these PRONOUNCING LOBBY ( same saadh lobby that is pro DG, pro Bikrimi Calendar, pro everything backward and anti SGPC, Akal takhat, Pad chhed birs, Mool Mnatar up to Gurparsaad etc etc - that is Before the 1980's - after the Wipe out of the Kharrkoos and proliferation of he derawaad and sadhs..the sgpc takhats etc are all under their control..so now they dont oppose those...just DONT FOLLOW the SRM etc which they are waiting to RUBBISH slowly as they ahve managed to do with the Nankshahi Calendar.)...........Sorry to digress..long Ago..these Pronouncers used to take LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOng breaths on all siharees and aunkarrs ...they would pronounce the SHAH(u) as SHAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Then Prof sahib Singh ji cmae along...discovered the UNIQUE RULES used in GURBANI..debunked all the UTTERLY MEANINGLES...shahoooooooooooooos.....and published his Darpan.....the saadhs had NO ANSWER except to RETREAT..but not GIVE UP. So they "pronounce"...the siharees and aunkarrs..but with soft stance....
But the FACT remains that the Siharee and aunkarrs as END Markers are GRAMMAR INDICATORS ONLY.  SHAH is an Ordinary Moneylender/Rich man....SHAH(u) is THE ONE AND ONLY MONEYLENDER ABOVE ALL....the GREATEST SHAH. To pronounce it as Shahooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooois as meaningless as it is *RIDICULOUS*...But that doesnt stop the pronouncers..just attend any Paath da Bhog being read by one such person and enjoy his ...Sir shahhan de Shahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo to the fullest.

No offense meant or taken....
Languages have enriched GURBANI....and if a word is from F{censored}e it will have a different meaning gender etc from same word taken from sanskrit. Both will have to follow their original grammars. ( Sikh SEWAKS...in English is perfectly acceptable...BUT in Punjabi usage the Plural word SEWAK*S* ..is rubbish..because in Punjabi sewak is singular and the plural is made NOT by adding an S but via CONTEXT...so a Sign in Punjabi written as Sikh sewaks is not correct !! Thus Gurbani also has its unique Grammar as it is a Language...its got a SCRIPT..its WRITTEN with INK and on Paper etc etc...being a DIVINE THING has got nothing to do with these restraints....otherwise how else would humans get the divine message ?? telephatically ?? or whisper in the ear as in RS Beas ??

Unfortunately this book hasnt been translated ( I wonder if its possible to explain the Grammar of one language in another anyway ??)


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 10, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, your comment if please as my father also used to speak so highly of one and only Professor Sahib Singh ji.  Probably one of the best scholars if not the best.

Is the Gurbani Viakaran by Prof Sahib Singh ji available in soft copy.

Thank you and I like your Beas comment too.  Did you ever stay there in the NRI wing versus the local wing. I never visited nor wish to visit the place but people say these are quite different (almost like $$ versus local rupees peacesign).

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 10, 2011)

Parsa(id)...the I siharee stanhds for..BY THE.....Satgur Parsad...is not just two words..satgur + Parsad..BUT has  a  Meaning...( By the ) Grace of the Guru !! The siharee is a Grammar Marker not a pronounciation indicator
These are what is called Cases in Grammar terminology...Nominative Case...Nan(i)k
Vocative Case..*Nank* ( normally spelt nanak which is WRONG as there is NO "Kanna" before the last K..in Punjabi its just N+kanna+n +k    hence the additonal kanna added to the second "n" is superflous ) Addressed to Nanak.. also written as Nanaka..and Nanak(u) is Noun...

Also Passive Actiev Voice..and pronouns adjectives etc etc..are all parts of grammar and all are used in Gurbani. Only a well versed linguist.grammatist can be fluent in this.Its not an easy task...especially as Paath was taught by ROTE in most Taksals and religious schools...one just repeats after the mahapurash who spent his life repeating after the earlier mahapurash. ...now a days even that is lacking...as one who has just completed one paath is deputed to begin teaching others..and so on..


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 10, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, your comment if please as my father also used to speak so highly of one and only Professor Sahib Singh ji.  Probably one of the best scholars if not the best.
> 
> Is the Gurbani Viakaran by Prof Sahib Singh ji available in soft copy.
> 
> ...



Ambarsariah Ji, Gurfateh.

YES JI..Prof sahib Singh Ji has doen a Monumental seva of the Guru Khalsa Panth with hsi Grammar based Guru Granth darpan in 10 Volumes. Its the Best katah so far.

I have no idea IF the Gurbani Viakran is available in Soft copy. I have 2 copies . The Hard Copy just published is avilable form Singh bros at their new shop in Industrial Focal Point Amrtisar...a little bit further from the darbar sahib than their old shop. The New edition is better paper. I have 2 just to make it convneient so I have a copy handy downstairs in my study room/Computer Table   ...and upstairs in my bedroom/computer table.

2. The Beas Connection..Ha Ha..they have been trying to "recruit" me for past 20 years... have sent personal driver and car to pick me up from New delhi Airport every year...I use that to go to Darbar Sahib !!.FOC .and always politely declined..a detour to BEAS.....but in 2006 did succumb to a viisit (Day visit only)..and I was shown around the entire Complex..langgars and all...and YES its superlative service and very well organised..and USD/British Pounds/Euros compared to Indian Rupees !! Thats becasue they make millions. But the Teaching failed to IMPRESS ME...and I said so straight away...still the car and driver was waiting as usual in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010...so i guess they havent lost hope yet....and the Parcels of sawan singhs books charan singhs books etc continue to arrive FREE at my address without fail and i send them to the Recycling Centre and pocket the fee !!( tax FREE )..But i love their perseverence..IF only the SGPC had even 0.0000000000000000000000001$ of THAT perseverence..we would have Amrtidharees all over the Punjab/World in great numbers...rangesingh:gingerteakaur


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## spnadmin (Jan 10, 2011)

Gyani ji

So back to sihari and aunkar: The Damdami Taksal pronunciation would then be incorrect? I am reading you? The  rajakaregahalsa sound clips do employ Demadami recitation and  are all recorded using voiced pronunciation of sihari and aunkar. 

I am however very grateful for your essay because you have mentioned this before, but not in such detail.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 10, 2011)

Yes JIOS..the DT Pronounciation of Siharees and Aunkars is Ultra Vires the ....whatever..because these are Grammar Markers and not meant to be pronounced. They cannot be considered "un-necessary" as well becasue they are just as vital as commas and full stops...and we DONT pronounce commas and full stops. Luckily these guys dont pronounce the Page Numbers too as there are 1430 of them....

Long ago before the advent of the Internet and when they had Morse Code/and Telegraph...they used to PRONOUNCE COMMAS and FULL STOPS and these were written out as WORDS. Eg. Come Home . (STOP) Dont leave your bags, (COMMA) your tennis rackets behind. STOP. I used to get such Telegraphs when away from home. !!

The Grammar thingy is very complicated..even with a Bachelors Degree in English and another in Linguistics..I still have to refr to a Grammar handbook for examples of certain types of Grammar...and the Gurbani one is even tougher as so many languages are involved..thousands of words different forms etc. spellings, gender indicators, verbs, adjectives, nouns, etc etc and even the Punjabi CHANGES becasue from Farid to Guru Teg bahadur ji time lapse of 3 centuries passes and area is so large.


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## findingmyway (Jan 10, 2011)

Gyani ji,
Is this the book you are talking about?
Prof. Sahib Singh - Gurbani Vyakarn (Gurbani Grammar)

This seems to be a nice English introduction
http://singhsabhabrisbane.com/gurbanigrammer.html

This is an interesting essay on the subject of grammar
http://sikhinstitute.org/july_2008/5-inderjit singh.pdf

Going back to pronunciation of Waheguru, the way I was always taught is sihari is a short i sound and bihari a long ee sound so ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ should really be Wahiguroo. We also have to differentiate between onkar and dulankar-the former is a short sound whilst the latter is a long sound.
Jasleen


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## spnadmin (Jan 10, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Yes JIOS..the DT Pronounciation of Siharees and Aunkars is Ultra Vires the ....whatever..because these are Grammar Markers and not meant to be pronounced. They cannot be considered "un-necessary" as well becasue they are just as vital as commas and full stops...and we DONT pronounce commas and full stops. Luckily these guys dont pronounce the Page Numbers too as there are 1430 of them....
> 
> Long ago before the advent of the Internet and when they had Morse Code/and Telegraph...they used to PRONOUNCE COMMAS and FULL STOPS and these were written out as WORDS. Eg. Come Home . (STOP) Dont leave your bags, (COMMA) your tennis rackets behind. STOP. I used to get such Telegraphs when away from home. !!
> 
> The Grammar thingy is very complicated..even with a Bachelors Degree in English and another in Linguistics..I still have to refr to a Grammar handbook for examples of certain types of Grammar...and the Gurbani one is even tougher as so many languages are involved..thousands of words different forms etc. spellings, gender indicators, verbs, adjectives, nouns, etc etc and even the Punjabi CHANGES becasue from Farid to Guru Teg bahadur ji time lapse of 3 centuries passes and area is so large.




Gyani ji

Thanks for clearing that up because there are 2 major sources for learning Nit Nem on the Internet: BaniPro (ProBani?)i and the Raj Karega Khalsa files that I mentioned. Both of them pronounce the sihari and aunkar at the end of a word consistently.

Your reply should be kept handy and  should be a constant reference for members who have these questions.

You have me nonethless  with your answer.

p/s when the thread first began I had no idea it would turn out to be so interesting.


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## hpannu (Jan 10, 2011)

findingmyway said:


> Ishna ji,
> As per my understanding the general rule is that if the sihari or aunkar come at the end, they are not pronounced but are there for grammatical purposes otherwise they are pronounced.



findingmyway ji - for the most what you say is true ? but there are exceptions ........

I have always been told that ਹ (h) ਨੂੰ ਮਾਤਰਾ ਲਗੀ ਹੋਈ pronounce ਕਰਣੀ ਹੈ । (for letter H we have to sound the ਿ ੀ ੁ ੂ ਾ ੋ ੌ ੇ ੈ ......)

for other letters there are exceptions. for example - ਮਾਇ, ਸੋਇ, ਜੀਉ, ਦੁਇ, ਤਉ, ਕਾਇ, ਕਉ, ਲੁਡਾਇ, ਮਾਰਉ, ਗਵਾਇ, ਥਾਇ .........etc in the given examples i pronounce the sihari ਿ and onkar ੁ the sound is very little but is there ...

ਭੁਲ ਚੁਕ ਮਾਫ ਕਰਣਾ ਜੀ !


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## hpannu (Jan 10, 2011)

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਿ ਫਤਿਹ ॥

To make it easier for users i have taken the following examples from Prof. Sahib Singh book ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਆਕਰਣ -
ਮਤੁ , ਮਤ , ਮਤਿ
ਮਤੁ - (ਨਾਂਵ- noun , ਇਕ-ਵਚਨ - Singular )
ਮਤ - ( 'ਮਤੁ' ਦਾ ਬਹੁ-ਵਚਨ - plural of ਮਤੁ)
ਮਤਿ - (ਨਾਂਵ-noun , ਇਸਤਰੀ ਲਿੰਗ- feminine)
************************************
ਪਤਿ, ਪਤੁ, ਪਤ
ਪਤਿ - (ਪੁਲਿੰਗ-masculine ex- ਖਸਮ) , (ਇਸਤਰੀ ਲਿੰਗ-feminine ex -ਇੱਜਤ)
ਪਤੁ - (ਪੁਲਿੰਗ-masculine , ਇਕ-ਵਚਨ-singular)
ਪਤ - (ਪੁਲਿੰਗ -masculine , ਬਹੁ-ਵਚਨ - plural) 
********************************

Gyani Ji on this forum has mentioned the difficulties or hardship in understanding the grammar when there are multiple languages in use over a given period of time. I have not studied Punjabi in School and learning by practice. I have the book mentioned above but it's not easy and cannot be done overnight. It's takes a life time of experience like Gyani Ji to get a grasp or hope so for it.

My personal experience is the more you ask and read Gurbani - you are bound to get different answers from different people depending on who you are talking to? SIKH PANTH has not come to terms of correct ucharan (pronounciation) of GURBANI. I have asked this question to Jathedar of AKAL TAKHT myself ? and from the way SIKH PANTH is heading it's not going to be easy task to come to a consensus on this .....

Following the basic rules of Gurbani reading - I am not advocating Prof Sahib Singh or any other organisation We as SIKHS should humbly make an attempt to learn GURBANI and try to understand it to the best of our means. We don't have to argue on who's right and who's wrong ? and I certainly don't want to ramble on this forum.

For readers - even though some of the words like in above examples are pronounced the same, they are in some cases addressed as singular, plural and different tenses of grammar............

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karna Ji !


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## onspjo (Jan 10, 2011)

Thanks to all for sharing their knowledge and views.
So two books can be referred for correct pronunciation:

"GURBANI DI BHASHA TE VYAKARAN" by Dr. Harkirat Singh jee Gurmukhi linguistics and Gurbani Bhasha scholars from Punjabi university----------as suggested by 'SPNadmin'

"Gurbani Viakaran" by Prof Sahib Singh ----------as suggested by 'Gyani Jarnail Singh'

I totally agree that the use of sihari or ounkarh changes the meaning of the base word. 
I want to believe that it has to be pronounced too. Because if you are reading gurbani, you can see the word and understand the meaning but if you are only hearing it and the sihari/ounkar before last letter is not pronounced, how would the listener understand the correct meaning?
So, I believe, it has to be pronounced. The correct pronunciation is very important. I heard a story where a person reading gurbani in front of Guru Gobind Singh Sahibji got a punishment for not pronouncing the word correctly.

The word Ki(K with sihari) is pronounced as ki(k with short i). There is no other pronunciation to it. So now one has to look at the grammatical rules( at the time of writing) for words with single letter or words with many letters. 

Like many commented that, it is subtle. Not a very long trailing sound at the end of it but still there to clearly differentiate between words with or without sihari/ounkarh.

THerefore, from all the posts, I'd like to believe that Waheguru sound is NOT         Wah-Long a- Guru sound. If this was the case, the h should have lav not sihari. 
But short i sound. That the sihari stands for.


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## onspjo (Jan 10, 2011)

Hpannu ji,
Tuhadi post baad wich dekhi. Since all the words use vowels in the end with matra, the sound of matra is clearly there(ਮਾਇ, ਸੋਇ, ਜੀਉ, ਦੁਇ, ਤਉ, ਕਾਇ, ਕਉ, ਲੁਡਾਇ, ਮਾਰਉ, ਗਵਾਇ, ਥਾਇ).

How do you use punjabi letters (this is off the topic---sorry).

Findingmyway Ji, tusi kamal kita a, bahut bahut dhanwaad, for putting the book here.

Bhul chuk maaf karni--in my previous post too.


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## hpannu (Jan 10, 2011)

onspjo said:


> Thanks to all for sharing their knowledge and views.
> So two books can be referred for correct pronunciation:
> 
> "GURBANI DI BHASHA TE VYAKARAN" by Dr. Harkirat Singh jee Gurmukhi linguistics and Gurbani Bhasha scholars from Punjabi university----------as suggested by 'SPNadmin'
> ...



Dear Onspjo Ji - 

First of all in ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਿ is in the middle so you have to sound it. ਿ ਅਤੇ ੇ ਦਾ sound in this case is similar to each other ਿ ਦਾ sound a little shorter than ੇ not a long a but a shorter a ਹੋਵੇਗਾ । ਜਦ ਿ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੇ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਵਿਚ ਲਗੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ like ਵਿਚ then the sound is like vich ਛੋਟੀ e or i ਕਹਿ ਲਵੋ । i hope i am not confusing you ....... you can pass me your phone # i can give you a call. send it to me in the personal message.


```
I want to believe that it has to be pronounced too. Because if you  are reading gurbani, you can see the word and understand the meaning  but if you are only hearing it and the sihari/ounkar before last letter  is not pronounced, how would the listener understand the correct  meaning?
 So, I believe, it has to be pronounced.
```

Don't confuse yourself - when there is a sihari ਿ or onkar ੁ at the end of ਸ਼ਬਦ it is not pronounced and is there for grammar reasons ...... please read earlier posts to clarify yourself.

For your other question - I write ਪੰਜਾਬੀ using UNICODE fonts. Please use Punjabi UNICODE fonts.


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 10, 2011)

I am no phonetics or linguist expert but from my knowledge this is how I see the pronunciation.



Start with the three syllables as below
waah - hicK - guru
Say it separately
Now say it jointly
Now drop the "ck" sound in the middle syllable
 
This becomes for me  ਵਾਿਹਗੁਰੂ
By the way, Professor Sahib Singh ji in Gurbani Darpan translate ਵਾਿਹਗੁਰੂ, ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ as*"Hay Guru"* or english "Hello Guru" as an address.  This contrasts with "wah - Hay meaning you are wonderful".  Quite significant distinction as one may notice that the repetition of "hay Guru" versus "wah-hay-guru" is quiet different.


Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 10, 2011)

Findingmyway Ji,
That book on SCribd..looks like it..but it failed to load on my computer..so i cnat really say for sure. Anyway I will try to source it on the net as well. Thanks


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 10, 2011)

Ambarsariah Ji,
you wrote...>>>>>>>>>
By the way, Professor Sahib Singh ji in Gurbani Darpan translate ਵਾਿਹਗੁਰੂ, ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ as*"Hay Guru"*  or english "Hello Guru" as an address.  This contrasts with "wah - Hay  meaning you are wonderful".  Quite significant distinction as one may  notice that the repetition of "hay Guru" versus "wah-hay-guru" is quiet  different.>>>>>>>>>>>

Exactly thats WHY many question how this word could be "Name" of the Creator. This word is used SOLELY by the Bhatts and in Bani written specifically addressed to the Five Gurus....but even more specifically to Guru Ramdass Ji and Guru Arjun ji as Partakh Har..the GURU they can see in front of their eyes. All these Bhatts are saying is they are "exclaiming..WAH Guru..Wonderful GURU as praise for the GURU they can see before them.

1. I REJECT this for two reasons. First It DOESNT MATTER who used the Word "Waheguru"....whether its one / or all the Sikh GURUS..or anyone else...or when ?? Suffice it that it NOW EXISTS in the GURU.( SGGS)..and is used for the GURU and in Gurmatt Guru, satgur and Waheguru, Creator Akal Purakh are ONE and the same. Our GURU is SHABAD..and Akal Purakh is Shabad. To try and separate/divide the various contributors of the SGGS on whatever grounds is blasphemy and ought to be condemned outright as an attempt to weaken sikhs and cause our downfall. This must be resisted at all costs.No one must dare to attack the Bhagat Banis, Bhatt swaiyahs, farid Jis bani etc etc as any lesser than Gurbani penned by the Sikh gurus...for us its the COLLECTIVE COMPOSITION in the SGGS that is the GURU. Period. We BOW to the Complete GURU.

2. The Guru Khlasa Panth has reached a concesnus that this is the Name of The Creator for Sikhs..and this is the word we are asked to recite at time of Khandey batte dee Pahul. The HUKM of the Panj is supreme.

This is removed from the pronounciation topic..but i thought to just pause on it as it may come up..sooner or later...better to be prepared just in case. Apologies for the digression.animatedkhanda1


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## findingmyway (Jan 10, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Findingmyway Ji,
> That book on SCribd..looks like it..but it failed to load on my computer..so i cnat really say for sure. Anyway I will try to source it on the net as well. Thanks



Gyani ji,
If you click on the link at the top of the scribd window it should take you directly to the book link in a new tab. Alternatively hove your mouse over it and right click :happykaur:
Jasleen


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 10, 2011)

Jasleen Ji, Thanks. Yes this is the book although this looks like an older copy. The latest 2001 edition is  printed using computerised fonts and very nice to read. Computerised means cna use Bold italics etc for emphasis hence easier to comprehend.

Prof sahib Singh did this monumental work in the ealry 1930s...and then based his darpan on this foundation. Thast why the darpan is logical and carries the true spirit of Gurbani most of the time. ( I say most of the time because in some instances, the Vedic environment/saffron enviornment that any scholar born and bred in Punjab will be..even Prof sahib Singh fails to get the Gurbani Essence and goes in the wrong direction...BUT not many....the earlier teekas like the Faridkotee Teeka is too heavily vedic and saffronised..so much so that it seems that the SGGS is just another Ved..and the Sikh gurus had nothing new and Guur nanak ji just expanded on the OM to make EK oankaar !!)


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 10, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Jasleen Ji, Thanks. Yes this is the book although this looks like an older copy. The latest 2001 edition is  printed using computerised fonts and very nice to read. Computerised means cna use Bold italics etc for emphasis hence easier to comprehend.
> 
> Prof sahib Singh did this monumental work in the ealry 1930s...and then based his darpan on this foundation. Thast why the darpan is logical and carries the true spirit of Gurbani most of the time. ( I say most of the time because in some instances, the Vedic environment/saffron enviornment that any scholar born and bred in Punjab will be..even Prof sahib Singh fails to get the Gurbani Essence and goes in the wrong direction...BUT not many....the earlier teekas like the Faridkotee Teeka is too heavily vedic and saffronised..so much so that it seems that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is just another Ved..and the Sikh gurus had nothing new and Guru nanak ji just expanded on the OM to make EK oankaar !!)


Gyani Jarnail Singh ji I really appreciate some of the backgrounders and tid bits you drop in your posts.

I grew up at Khalsa College Amritsar in the era just later part of the 50s and mid 60s and I bet you I saw Professor Sahib Singh ji once in awhile during his visits after his retirement from there.  I clearly remember Professor Waryam Singh ji's name from that time.

I have been reading parts of his Gurbani Darpan more or less as result of my participation and encouragement/positive dialog here at SPN.

My respects to you, Aman Singh ji and spnadmin ji for great site and constructive at times direct but truth and sikhism centric discourses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjc1x4V4y6c&feature=player_detailpage

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Jan 10, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji

Aman Singh is the brains behind this operation. I am here gur prasaad.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 10, 2011)

Heres a link about Prof sahib Singh..and the history is written by his good friend Dalip Singh of USA. Scroll down and be AMAZED at How he began the discovery of GURBANI GRAMMAR.......and you will see the similarity between him and How NEWTON discovered the Principle of Gravity by watching an apple fall !!
Millions of people before Newton saw apples fall....
Thousands of Readers before Sahib Singh participated in Continous readings of the SGGS...BUT then NEWTON..and Sahib Singh came along.....and we get the Laws of Gravity...and Gurbani Grammar !!

Enjoy...
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Professor_Sahib_Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 10, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji yes I was reading through that earlier today.  Wonderful human being, humble, thankful, respectful of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji while identifying his own limitations in the monumental tasks he completed.

How many such people are needed to right the ship of Sikhism today?  

May Sikhism see better days.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS:  I think spnadmin ji and Aman Singh ji are related.  One likes coffee the other likes tea. :singhsippingcoffee::angryadminsingh:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 10, 2011)

Ambarsariah ji..
You have brought many smiles.... we at SPN are one big family and we laugh and we play and we are serious...as in Gurbani..hasendiah khendiahn..or nachan kuddna man ka chao..

And I love Hot Chocolate (Bounavita in Punjab )...but MILO/Ovaltine in Malaysia...
a little bit of coffee in the mornings...and a little bit of chah at chah time !!

But my ALL time favourite is LASSI...can down a baltee anytime....anywhere..anyhow !!

Thanks for all the kind words and wishes..stay with us at SPN..and enjoy the Journey.
Jarnail Singh:happykaur:cheerleaderwelcomemunda:blueturban::grinningkaur::happysingh:


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## onspjo (Jan 12, 2011)

Hpannuji,
 I think I got what you are saying:
For sihari and ounkarh--
When anywhere else other than end(like beginning or middle), pronounce it.
When in the end, do not pronounce it.
When in the end with vowels(like irhi, urha, erha etc.), pronounce it.

 Since Waheguru is one word, the sihari with H should be pronounced.

Thanks all for participating and it has helped, and enriched many of us with all the book references and video(about Prof. Darshan Singhji- haven't checked it yet but sure will).

Does this site and discussions qualify as SANGAT?


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## spnadmin (Jan 12, 2011)

Thanks ji



> Does this site and discussions qualify as SANGAT?



For many SPN members it does and it is!  For that we are grateful to be of service.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 12, 2011)

YES DEFINITELY WE ARE SANGAT.    Sangat is defined as Company of the learned...learners...fellow seekers...and we are all that and more.
Bhagat Kabir Ji advises...IF you meet a SAKAT..run away as fast as you can...because a SAKAT is not likely to be converted by YOU..BUT YOU can fall due to him...
Guur Nanak Ji advises...When you meet a learned person..a fellow seeker..a devotee...kichh sunneah...kicchh kaheah..Nanaka..ASK questions..and LISTEN !!
GURMATT is Based on the Foundation of ASKING QUESTIONS....and then LISTENING TO THE ANSWERS.  Guru Angad Ji declares..That IF you do BOTH ( ask and REFUSE to Listen ) then YOU ARE SUNK !!  SWAAL JWAAB DOHEHN KAREH..muddhon khutthah jayeh... a person who questions and answers himself...is Muddhon khutthah jayeh means LOST even before he begins the journey !!

WELCOME One and ALL !!! CYBER SANGAT !! :singhsippingcoffee:rangesingh::redturban::redturban::happysingh:cheerleader


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## CaramelChocolate (Jan 15, 2011)

Very interesting, especially as over the past few days I have begun learning punjabi. The book says that when the small
Sihari is added on to the end of the word it denotes a level of respect, but does not affect the pronunciation. Take the example of sat (true) and sat (extract), both different spellings, but sound the same with different meanings.

Vaah and guru are two separate words, and the siharee on waah is one of respect, So this begs the question do we pronounce this sound of respect when it is added to guru to create a new word?

Just some thoughts. My knowledge on south Asian language is very limited. This is an interesting issue but it is a purely lingusitic one. God has many names and yet he has none, I believe that the love and devotion behind doing simran is the most important, not the method or pronounciation.

Wjkk wjkf


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## Khalistani_lion (Apr 10, 2012)

spnadmin said:


> My understanding is the sihari is pronounced
> 
> 
> 
> http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,2634,2634




www.Gursevak.com for correct pronunciation.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 10, 2012)

I would agree with SPNADMIN ji for takng into consideration of the Vowels related to Sihai and Aukad Matra with Gurbanee words.
In fact we enter into gross error by avoiding the pronunciation of words with these matras.We infact have eliminated the consideration of these matras altogether.
The application of these matras is very crucial in getting overall understanding of Gurbanee.
I dont understand who and when the idea of avoiding the pronunciation of these two matras was introduced and accepted.Even ourmost learned scholars have accepted the norms of avoiding the pronunciation of words with sihai and Aukad matras.
There is need to relook into the significance of matras of Aukad and Sihari in directing the meanings to the Gurbanee words.Once we can do this we are likel;y to get more clear understanding of meanings of Gurbanee and there will be very little deviation in overall interpretation of Gurbanee.
I have always been mentioning and writing the words with these matras although there has always been great resistance in considering this.
I think now is a time we should come clear in understanding the role of these matras.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 10, 2012)

onspjo said:


> First of all, Guru Gobind Singh Sahibji de gurpurab di bahut bahut wadhai howe.
> 
> Secondly, Please help me on this:
> What is the correct pronunciation of the word: Waheguru.
> ...


 
You can look at this Quote also
ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਊ ਤੂ ਕਦ ਕਾ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਿਰੇ ਤੈ ਅਗਨਤ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਮੋਹੁ ਭਯਾ ਮਨ ਮਦ ਕਾ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1403

There is no Sihari or Aukad with the word WAH................................

Although your point of Pause or stress is equally valid for the matra of Sihari but besides this the application of Sihari also changes the meaning of the respective word.This is equally important .

Well ,it should be obvious that pronunciation of the word WAH(i) as vowel of E is grammatically incorrect.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 10, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Ambarsariah Ji,
> you wrote...>>>>>>>>>
> By the way, Professor Sahib Singh ji in Gurbani Darpan translate ਵਾਿਹਗੁਰੂ, ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ as*"Hay Guru"* or english "Hello Guru" as an address. This contrasts with "wah - Hay meaning you are wonderful". Quite significant distinction as one may notice that the repetition of "hay Guru" versus "wah-hay-guru" is quiet different.>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> ...


What GuRu Gobind Singh Ji gave to Khalsa Panth to recite at the time of Khande Ki Pahul that is SABADu or ,NAME(NAAu) or NAAMu. It is very important to understand this.
As per my understanding Our GuRu Gobind Singh ji Gave SABADu 
This SABADu is of GuR (what we should know as CREATOR)
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## jonj (Apr 26, 2012)

this also puzzles me as i never knew how to correctly pronounce this as well and it bothers me because i do not know if i am propagating the word in a correct manner and that if i am teaching the kid the right way to pronounce this. i was to seek help to the older ones i know but then i cam across this post and this has become useful for me.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 26, 2012)

Joni..it doesnt matter...like if you see me across the street and shout...
Hey Gyani....!!!!...or...Hi gyani...Oi Gyani....Hi/Hey/oi are just ATTENTION GETTERS..and the main thing is that I "hear" you and cross the road...

WAH.......is the Hey/the Hi..the Oi....But the Main Thing is the PRAISE..the CALL..to the GURU..the GURU..the Satgur..The CREATOR....and thats whats all about...

Just as HEY-GYANI or OIGYANI is NOT my "Name"..WAH-GURU/WAHEGURU" is Not His Name...His Naam/name is HIS Attributes..His GUR-BANI...which describes those very attributes..which then lead us all to EXCLAIM...WAH WAH WAH WAH>>GURU..GUR...whatever.... Simply shouting/muttering Waheyguru etc or shouting HeyGyani etc is NOT what we want to keep on doing..we all should WANT to BECOME HIM..BECOME BANI..Via His GURBANI..His SHABAD..BY PRACTICAL IMPLEMENTATION of HIS ATTRIBUTES described form Page One of SGGS..the Mool mantar....
Guru Nanak ji brought the SHABD..Guur Gobind Singh ji left us the Shabad..and its the Shabad thats the ESSENCE...GUR...the WAY..and the END..


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 27, 2012)

In Gurbanee one should realise how the type of matra used in any WORD conveys different meanings of the same word.Therefore there is great significance of correct pronunciation of particular words in Gurbanee.
One can see how significant is the correct use of letters /words in sending the messages thru e -mail,even an ommission of a dot can result in failure of the messages.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 27, 2012)

The "problem" being created is in..PRONOUNCIATION.....whereby certain diehards insist on "PRONOUNCING" ALL lagan matras...and strangely KEEP QUIET on the same lagan matras elsewhere....they insist its sah(aunkad) as sahOOOOOOOOOOOO, RahOOOOOOOOO PatshahOOOOOOOOOOOOO....But when the very same aunkadd appears elsewhere they keep it silent..anomaly.

Yes a Missing . in Email cna render the address meaningless and no dleivery..BUT then NO ONE Insists the DOT must be "Pronounced"...its there as a MARKER only...not for saying it ALOUD....

MANY lagan matras are *MARKERS *ONLY..not for pronounciation aloud.:blueturban:


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 27, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> The "problem" being created is in..PRONOUNCIATION.....whereby certain diehards insist on "PRONOUNCING" ALL lagan matras...and strangely KEEP QUIET on the same lagan matras elsewhere....they insist its sah(aunkad) as sahOOOOOOOOOOOO, RahOOOOOOOOO PatshahOOOOOOOOOOOOO....But when the very same aunkadd appears elsewhere they keep it silent..anomaly.
> 
> Yes a Missing . in Email cna render the address meaningless and no dleivery..BUT then NO ONE Insists the DOT must be "Pronounced"...its there as a MARKER only...not for saying it ALOUD....
> 
> MANY lagan matras are *MARKERS *ONLY..not for pronounciation aloud.:blueturban:


 
GIYANi JARNAIL SINGH Jeo,
I partially agree to the contents of the message because if we look at a message from Gurbanee as
"GAWIAE SUNIYE MUNi RAHIYE BHAu.....Japji Sahib

This reveals the significance of Pronunciation too.
Suppose I am listening to Gurbanee how can I get the true feeling (Bhau)
of the message if pronunciation is not correct .In Gurbanee the pronunciation as per matra is changing the direction of the meaning.This 
should be important to understand
Pronunciation may not be that vital in normal colloqil communication.
You can see we can find even the words of Gurbanee being written without matras too  like in english.
With regards
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Khalistani_lion (May 6, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> The "problem" being created is in..PRONOUNCIATION.....whereby certain diehards insist on "PRONOUNCING" ALL lagan matras...and strangely KEEP QUIET on the same lagan matras elsewhere....they insist its sah(aunkad) as sahOOOOOOOOOOOO, RahOOOOOOOOO PatshahOOOOOOOOOOOOO....But when the very same aunkadd appears elsewhere they keep it silent..anomaly.
> 
> Yes a Missing . in Email cna render the address meaningless and no dleivery..BUT then NO ONE Insists the DOT must be "Pronounced"...its there as a MARKER only...not for saying it ALOUD....
> 
> MANY lagan matras are *MARKERS *ONLY..not for pronounciation aloud.:blueturban:





WJKK WJKF

Gyani Ji, Lagaan matras are not Markers. Haddan are Markers. Lagaan Matras are Vowels and have an equal importance to pronounce as any other letters. We can't make our own rules to make the same Lag vowel at one place and marker by not pronouncing it at the other place.

WJKK WJKF


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 6, 2012)

Jios,
Hadd is indicated by the DANDEE/DANDEES.........BUT then again Sikhs being much wiser than the GURU..IGNORE these too.......

Prime Example: The  FOUR DANDEES (Haddaan) placed BEFORE and AFTER the word 

*  [[  Jap ]]*.   Dandee after *GURPARSAAD ]]* indicates HADD...STOP...*END*.
Did the wise sikhs OBEY this HADD Marker and STOP ?? NO ji..they decided the STOP LIGHT is ONLY for those .."unwise unbrahmgyani simpletons"....the Brahmgyanis, the Mahapurashs, the Sri 1008's all know better....when the simpletons STOP at the DANDEES..we drive right past and thumb our noses at the waiting que...

Nadr with a siharee and nadr with a Biharee occur right next to each other and the word is the Same...but grammatically different. The Biharee needs to be pronounced because its LONG sound...the siharee is short and makes no difference to the sound or meaning.
I have noticed pathis pronouncing SHAH(u) as SHAHOOOOOOOOOO..but when its Jan(u)..they say jan..and not Janoooooooooooo. Shah and jan aunkadds at the end are Markers to indicate Grammar Capital Proper NOUN/plural etc and is not really for pronunciation..otherwise pronounce each aunkadd as LONG OOOOOOOOOO will soon become clear as nonsense.


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 7, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Jios,
> Hadd is indicated by the DANDEE/DANDEES.........BUT then again Sikhs being much wiser than the GURU..IGNORE these too.......
> 
> Prime Example: The FOUR DANDEES (Haddaan) placed BEFORE and AFTER the word
> ...


 
It is important to think that the meanings of the word Nadr with matra of sihai and with matra of Biharee are different as their grammar is different.
The word Nadr with matra of Biharee is NOUN whereas the same word With a Matra of Sihari is VERB.
So how the meanings can be same?
Yes,There are words with matra of Sihari with exclusive meaning like the word PRITHAMi (with Sihari) and PRITHAMI(with Bihari).Here these two words have entirely different meanings.The word with Sihari has the meaning as "First" and the word with Biharee has the meaning as"Earth" .

I think that in words with a matra of Sihari with grammar as SINGULAR(Feminine Gender) the avoidance of pronunciation of matra in such words would not change the meanng of particular word.

Therefore one should know the real significance of pronunciation of words with matra od Sihari and Biharee too.This can not be avoided for every word.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 7, 2012)

It is important to acquire clear understanding about the role and pronunciation of Gurbanee words with matra of Aukad /Dulaikad and words with matra of Sihari and Biharee.
Simply saying these are not to be pronounced is going to to any good to the correct understanding of Gurbanee.
We should come OUT OF BOX of previous establhed norms about this.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 7, 2012)

The Siharees and aunkadds that are not "pronounced" are there because its POETRY..and POETRY is LIMITED in various ways...unlike Vaartak..PROSE, the writer can write as much as he wishes..but in POETRY such lagaan matras are used to differentiate nouns from verbs and in other ways. Nadr with siharee means HIS Nadr...and nadr with biharee..means IN HIS View/nadr....in Prose the word IN is substituted with Siharee or biharee.


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 7, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> The Siharees and aunkadds that are not "pronounced" are there because its POETRY..and POETRY is LIMITED in various ways...unlike Vaartak..PROSE, the writer can write as much as he wishes..but in POETRY such lagaan matras are used to differentiate nouns from verbs and in other ways. Nadr with siharee means HIS Nadr...and nadr with biharee..means IN HIS View/nadr....in Prose the word IN is substituted with Siharee or biharee.


 
The great beauty of Gurbanee poetry is this inspite of being in lyric form
its words can be pronounces as per matras so that any one can understand the essence of the message even while listening too.

For one moment if your point of logic is accepted then you would defenitely agree to the fact that these matras do direct the meaning of the particular message.Do we really do so?

Then while writing Gurbanee in Romam transcription we have titally elliminated the indication of these matras then how correctly we can understand or make others to understand Gurbanee correctly it should be a matter of Surprise.

I bring to your kind attention the interpretation of the Quote "GuRu Jahaju KHEWAT GuRU GuR Binu Tariya Naa Koe" if one considers the grammar of the words correctly then the meanings are not what you are mentioning.
Unless it is grammatically understood what is GuRu and GuRU in Gurbanee one can never get true meaning of the Quote at all.

I understand you are a most respectable person in your field .Therefore I expect from a person of your calibre to clear out the clouds of existing 
misunderstandings.You have great opportunity to .do so.
We should come out ofour prejudiced view I assure you feel really amazed to say WAHi GuRoo/WAH GuRoo.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 7, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> The Siharees and aunkadds that are not "pronounced" are there because its POETRY..and POETRY is LIMITED in various ways...unlike Vaartak..PROSE, the writer can write as much as he wishes..but in POETRY such lagaan matras are used to differentiate nouns from verbs and in other ways. Nadr with siharee means HIS Nadr...and nadr with biharee..means IN HIS View/nadr....in Prose the word IN is substituted with Siharee or biharee.


 
I think we dont need to understand the meanings of Gurbanee as POETRY by converting this into PROSE.By doing so we are bound to deviate from the true meaning of the messages.
I think we should understand Gurbanee the way it is presented.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 7, 2012)

GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
We can look a quote from Gurbanee as

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥੩੮॥ 

नानक नदरी नदरि निहाल ॥३८॥ 

Nānak naḏrī naḏar nihāl. ||38|| 

O Nanak, the Merciful Lord, by His Grace, uplifts and exalts them. ||38|| 

You can see for yourself that
The meaning of the word NADAR with matra of Biharee is  ...Merciful LORD and
That for the word NADAR with a matra of Sihari ...is by grace 

The meanings are different than the way you are suggesting in your message.
Prakash.s.Bagga
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## Khalistani_lion (May 17, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> The Siharees and aunkadds that are not "pronounced" are there because its POETRY..and POETRY is LIMITED in various ways...unlike Vaartak..PROSE, the writer can write as much as he wishes..but in POETRY such lagaan matras are used to differentiate nouns from verbs and in other ways. Nadr with siharee means HIS Nadr...and nadr with biharee..means IN HIS View/nadr....in Prose the word IN is substituted with Siharee or biharee.




Gyani Jio,
As you are saying Ji that Lagaan Matras are used and written only to  differentiate nouns from verbs, then how would the listeners differentiate between these nouns and verbs if they don't listen these lagaa matraa? The listener would only guess if the spoken word is noun or verb, and everyone will guess to serve their own purpose. Without pronunciation of lagaa matraa, either Speaker or the Listener who interprets the spoken words without lagaan is wrong and should be stopped. 
Now you tell us who you want to stop, all speakers pronouncing without lagaa matraa or all listeners listening and interpreting it wrong by not knowing if its noun or verb?

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥੩੮॥ 
without knowing that their is Sihari to Nadar which makes it verb, the listener would assume its Nadar (noun) if they hear Nadar without Sihari to it. Then the meaning someone assume would be:
O Nanak! merciful Lord's (ਨਦਰ) Grace(noun) gets Nihal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 17, 2012)

We should realise and understand the need of Gurbanee wods as per Form of the words.We should in fact learn how to pronounce the matras we have been avoiding so far.This would be extremely benificial for checking any manipulation of Gurbanee words and interpretation there of.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Khalistani_lion (May 17, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Jios,
> Hadd is indicated by the DANDEE/DANDEES.........BUT then again Sikhs being much wiser than the GURU..IGNORE these too.......
> 
> Prime Example: The  FOUR DANDEES (Haddaan) placed BEFORE and AFTER the word
> ...




Gyani Jio,
Sorry if I offend you but when you went to Punjabi Primary school in India, didn't they teach that out of total 10 Lagaan, three are short- Mukta, Aunkar, and Sihari? If you did learn that then why would you pronounce Aunkad as long OOOOOOOOOO as you are saying in your posts since beginning of this topic? Since aunkad is Short Lag, its pronounced short (only one O instead of 10 you are saying Ji. Aunkar pronounced long becomes Dolankar. We need to spend some time differentiating between sounds, only then will we appreciate all lagaan being pronounced. 
I have done both ways and that's why doing benti here to pronounce all Lagaan and experience the difference yourself. You need to practice Muharni first, the building block of pronunciation before you start pronouncing Lagaan.

Paathi Singhs try to pronounce Lagaan as you are saying in your post Ji, but they can't pronounce all since it needs a lot of practice to pronounce them correctly, and they do as much as they can. We can practice more and pronounce all Lagaan.



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Jios,
> Hadd is indicated by the DANDEE/DANDEES.........BUT then again Sikhs being much wiser than the GURU..IGNORE these too.......



Giani Ji, Sikhs are not being wiser than Guru Sahib Ji, they do not know or didn't notice that not stopping on Haddan makes a big difference, nobody told them before. You can ask anyone who is reading this Topic if he/she knew it before? The answer would be no. Similarly, common Punjabi reader do not notice Lagaan to the end letter in Gurbani words. Since Gurbani readers are mostly Punjabi readers who are used to no-Lag-to-last-letter, they read Gurbani as Punjabi assuming Gurbani is punjabi, so most of the time they don't even notice these lagaan let alone correctly pronouncing them.

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karni Ji


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 17, 2012)

This style of reading Gurbanee by leaving Laga matra is taught right from the very begining Punjabi classes.
I was surprised to see the special instructions at the foot note in preliminary Book of Alphabets of Gurmukhi that the matra of Aukad and Sihari with last letter of the word should not be ponounced.These are the instructions in a book published by Delhi Gurdwara Prabhandhak Commitee.
When our leading organisations are not promoting the things correctly then how one can expect this to learn.This is a childhood educations fault that when we grow up we resist the idea of ponouncing these matras.
This can be improved if we take care of this at different levels of reading Gurmukhi script.This should start from Home level and then at school level ..

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 17, 2012)

Khalistani Lion Jio,
I am not offended..or I would have stopped 50 years ago when i first began writing..becasue i have come across lots of posts, lekhs, friends..polite ones, not so polite ones, rude ones, downright rude and even vulgar ones..BUT i decided that "getting offended" is not an option jios...so rest assured on that point.

2. I didnt go to school in Punjab..I began my education in Malaysia...from my dad who was a pioneer of Punjabi Education in Malaysia..I carry on that tradition and have been teaching Punjabi/Gurmukhi/gurbani with meanings and computers for past 40 years...I graduated form Punjab Univeristy Chandigarh in 1970 with Gyani..as part timer..while completing my English academic Degree in Univeristy of Malaya/Singapore full time...

3. What i wrote is from personally hearing those long oooooooos ..its a fact that can be verified at BHOG TIME...becasue pathis get very up beta when starting the BHOG in Public...so they SHAHpoooooooooand Patshahooooooo with all the gusto they cna muster to impress the listeners..sad but true.

4. The DGMC is RIGHT when it says that many aunkards and siharees are GRAMATICAL MARKERS and not pronounced. Prof Sahib singh clarifies this very well.

Thank you for a refreshing post. keep contributing....


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 17, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Khalistani Lion Jio,
> I am not offended..or I would have stopped 50 years ago when i first began writing..becasue i have come across lots of posts, lekhs, friends..polite ones, not so polite ones, rude ones, downright rude and even vulgar ones..BUT i decided that "getting offended" is not an option jios...so rest assured on that point.
> 
> 2. I didnt go to school in Punjab..I began my education in Malaysia...from my dad who was a pioneer of Punjabi Education in Malaysia..I carry on that tradition and have been teaching Punjabi/Gurmukhi/gurbani with meanings and computers for past 40 years...I graduated form Punjab Univeristy Chandigarh in 1970 with Gyani..as part timer..while completing my English academic Degree in Univeristy of Malaya/Singapore full time...
> ...


 
I will certainly be interested in knowing as where Prof Sahib Singh clarifies for these matras not to pronounced.
What I understand that Prof Sahib singh ji has expressed difficulty in pronouncing these matras  but what is happening is that we are not considering the effect of these matras  during interpretation of Gurbanee words so this is making the difference.
There are two aspects ONE is Pronunciation of these matras and SECOND 
interpretation of Gurbanee words as per these matras.While avoiding ONE we are avoiding Both aspects .

I have also received my education in Gurmukhi with such concepts only but when I thought of these matras then I realised this is something which should be very important
When we consider the use of these matras for interpretation I know the meanings are getting changed what we have established so far.Probably this is the fear that is a bottleneck in giving the importance oto these matrras during interpretation.

With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Khalistani_lion (May 17, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Khalistani Lion Jio,
> I am not offended..or I would have stopped 50 years ago when i first began writing..becasue i have come across lots of posts, lekhs, friends..polite ones, not so polite ones, rude ones, downright rude and even vulgar ones..BUT i decided that "getting offended" is not an option jios...so rest assured on that point.
> 
> 2. I didnt go to school in Punjab..I began my education in Malaysia...from my dad who was a pioneer of Punjabi Education in Malaysia..I carry on that tradition and have been teaching Punjabi/Gurmukhi/gurbani with meanings and computers for past 40 years...I graduated form Punjab Univeristy Chandigarh in 1970 with Gyani..as part timer..while completing my English academic Degree in Univeristy of Malaya/Singapore full time...
> ...



1. Giani Ji thanks for the Seva you are doing. You are our Giani Ji, If you won't look outside the box, then how would us who follow your advise ever look outside this box given to us by Prof. Sahib Singh.

2. Learning Punjabi is different from learning Gurbani as I wrote in my last post.

3. I agree with you Gianee Ji that Paathies pronounce long sounds. But it has nothing to do with pronunciation of Lagaan. You are confusing pronunciation of Lagaan with melody paathies create to make it sound good. Kirtiniaa does it too, Do you think Kirtiniaa are pronouncing Lagaan?

4. Dr. Harkirat Singh Linguist from same Patiala university has said we should pronounce all Lagaan Matraa. Pronouncing Lagaan has always been favoured in Damdami Taksal.  DGMC and Prof. Sahib Singh Ji has contributed a lot to Sikh community, but can you beleive everything what DGMC and Prof. Sahib Singh say?

Another thought, Every Language could be written while listening to it. But, can we write Gurbani while listening to paathi doing paath without pronouncing Lagaan? Can we even write Mool Mantar, even if we are reading or listening it from years?
If not, what are we missing?
It's the pronunciation of these Lagaan.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 17, 2012)

A very long time ago...when a Telegraph was the only way to convey a message..every GRAMATICAL INDACATOR was SPELT OUT. Example..I still have the Telegraph that I received form the Uni informing me about my admission. It reads..

Dear Mister Jarnail *COMMA*   Your admission approved *STOP* Please arrange to make necessary payment *STOP *Also arrange to bring along the following personal items - bedding *COMMA* bedspread COMMA comforter COMMA as these are not provided in the hostel *STOP* Please note that attendance at University is required to pay all fees et cetera *STOP*

Today that same message would be..Dear Mr. jarnail, Your admission approved.

1. The WORDS COMMA, STOP in the 1960's Telegraphic Message are NOT to be "PRONOUNCED"..they are Grammar Markers and Today we DONT NEED to write them out in FULL becasue we cna just use the  ,.,.,. etc. mr. dr. .

2. No English teacher will instruct his students..DONT go around "Pronouncing" the Full stops, commas, inverted commas...as this is understood they are Grammar markers and NOT words.

Gurbani merely uses some lagaan esp aunkadds and siharees as GRAMMAR MARKERS. These are NOT to be pronounced. Prof sahib Singhs Grammar thesis shows which words have pronouncable aunkadds and which dont. In addition Gurbani is poetry..very tightly composed unlike prose which can be very long and winding with everything spelt out in full...and Gurbani has its own special grammar which substitutes  lagaan such as aunkad and siharee to indicate grammar, nouns, singular, plural etc. Other Things like COMMAS dont exist in Gurbani and as such a Learner has to LEARN from an experienced Paathi exactly where to PAUSE..stop.short or stop long etc.


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 17, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> A very long time ago...when a Telegraph was the only way to convey a message..every GRAMATICAL INDACATOR was SPELT OUT. Example..I still have the Telegraph that I received form the Uni informing me about my admission. It reads..
> 
> Dear Mister Jarnail *COMMA* Your admission approved *STOP* Please arrange to make necessary payment *STOP *Also arrange to bring along the following personal items - bedding *COMMA* bedspread COMMA comforter COMMA as these are not provided in the hostel *STOP* Please note that attendance at University is required to pay all fees et cetera *STOP*
> 
> ...


 
If we had experienced Pathis  familiar with the correct application of grammatical indications ,then probably we would not be sharing this subject at all.

We have punjabi classes almost in every Gurdwara and such expirieced Pathi can guide the students right from the begining.

But I have yet to come across an expirienced Pathi .

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 18, 2012)

PSbagga ji..
Are you not an experienced pathi ?? I thought you are the most experienced if ever there was one..do keep teaching the less experienced ones..


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 18, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> PSbagga ji..
> Are you not an experienced pathi ?? I thought you are the most experienced if ever there was one..do keep teaching the less experienced ones..


 
You have really bolded me out thru your wordings and I am only a little Das/Sewak of GuRu Nanak least I should feel elated.May Sati GuRu help me. We all can learn by understanding our GuRu only.We as Sudents can only share and respect the messages of our GuRu.
Giyani Ji,I fully understand the difficulty in pronunciation of the vowels related to matra of Aukad and Sihari.My Teacher for Gurmkhi was also Giyani Santokh Singh  ji Now I recollect some of his words in this connection.
Nevertheless we should  not make Gurbanee a running matter where the basic essence of Gurbanee message of Gurbanee is getting confused.How to ensure this? My concern is more for this aspect.
If we can ensure correct interpretation of Gurbanee words without giving any significance to pronunciation, this is also wecome.But this seems to be most difficult.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Khalistani_lion (May 18, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> A very long time ago...when a Telegraph was the only way to convey a message..every GRAMATICAL INDACATOR was SPELT OUT. Example..I still have the Telegraph that I received form the Uni informing me about my admission. It reads..
> 
> Dear Mister Jarnail *COMMA*   Your admission approved *STOP* Please arrange to make necessary payment *STOP *Also arrange to bring along the following personal items - bedding *COMMA* bedspread COMMA comforter COMMA as these are not provided in the hostel *STOP* Please note that attendance at University is required to pay all fees et cetera *STOP*
> 
> ...



Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!

Of course markers are not to be pronounced. Haddan is STOP, we don't say haddan. Shabad Numbers are markers to give the count of Shabads, we don't pronounce them. Rahau tells to PAUSE. 
1. But don't you think here we are confusing markers with Lagaan (Vowels) or is it being said deliberately?

2. What's your source of calling markers to 10 Lagaan?

You can check Patiala University's website, they are not markers but vowels:
http://www.learnpunjabi.org/intro1.asp

Kabit Bhai Gurdas Ji:

ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੋਟਾਨਿ ਬਖਾਨ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਗਵਤ ਬੇਦ ਬਿਆਕਰਨ ਗੀਤਾ ।
 If all the 31 Simrities, 18 Purans, Bhagvad Geeta, four Vedas and their grammar become millions and speak, 

ਸੇਸ ਮਰਜੇਸ ਅਖਲੇਸ ਸੁਰ ਮਹੇਸ ਮੁਨ ਜਗਤੁ ਅਰ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਰ ਨਰ ਅਤੀਤਾ।
If Shesh Nag of thousands of tongues, Dharamraj, Kuber and other gods, Shiva and hermits and saints of the whole world, noble men get together in millions and speak;

ਗਿਆਨ ਅਰ ਧਿਆਨ ਉਨਮਾਨ ਉਨਮਨ ਉਕਤਿ ਰਾਗ ਨਾਦਿ ਦਿਜ ਸੁਰਮਤਿ ਨੀਤਾ।
If seekers of many type of knowledge, contemplations and wise men who discuss various subjects, people of higher spiritual state, who can speak about various skills, all the Ragas and their seven notes, various knowledgeable scholars like Vashisht, goddess Saraswati keep prasing everyday the glory of Guru Ji's Shabad Gurbani,

ਅਰਧ ਲਗ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ ਗੁਰਸਬਦ ਅਖਰ ਮੇਕ ਅਗਮ ਅਤਿ ਅਗਮ ਅਗਾਧਿ ਮੀਤਾ ॥੫੪੦॥
O friend! all the above will fall woefully short of saying the praise of a (ਅਰਧ ਲਗ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ) half a Vowel of (ਗੁਰਸਬਦ) Gurbani Ji. The significance of Guru's words is beyond the extent of all knowledge.

*Who are we or Prof. Sahib Singh to say that (ਲਗ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ) Lagaan of Gurbani are insignificant and are there only to describe grammar?*

and in future, Scholars like you Giani Ji would even suggest to eliminate them from Gurbani as you are already pointing towards it in your post above.


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 18, 2012)

If Laga matras are grammar how these can be considered insignificant.This fact 
on the contrary becomes more important to understand.
Even in a quote Kabir Das ji refers as"APAN Ko DEERGH KAR JANE AURAN Ko LAG MAT"

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 18, 2012)

Would any one suggest that the CAPITAL Letter to signify Proper Noun be scrapped ?? That its pointless and all should just write in small letters (Btw ALL CAPITALS is taken to mean SHOUTING..which is a NEW phenomenon in the world of English as a modern Internet language..as earlier ALL CAPITALS didnt mean shouting but just *EMPHASIS* !!

NO one least of all prof Sahib Singh ji is saying..SCRAP ALL LAGAN matras..what a ridiculous suggestion... What we are simply saying is that CERTAIN Aunkadds and Siharees ( ONLY) are being used as Capital letters are used in English. No one si remotel;y suggesting that ALL lagan matras all vowels etc should be scrapped..how ridiculous is that.

This Lagna Matran DEBATE is actually a DEEP SEATED CONSPIRACY by the RSS Hindutva trained Brigaed....a certain Tamil professor was given a HUGE GRANT of a few Kror rupees to do essentially the JOB of MUTILATING SGGS by PHYSICALLY CUTTING OUT ALL lagaan matrans...only by a fortunate accident he was EXPOSED and sacked from this Project. He had used a Sharp Blade to cut out ALL siharees, biharees, aunkadds, dulaknads, dulavan lavan kanas etc etc as IRRELEVANT !!.

Having FAILED miserably in that First attempt..NOW the SECOND LINE of attack is to keep this so called Gur-Gur(u)..sat(i)gur(u) ..Naam and Naam(u) Sabad and Sabad(u)..etc etc..*charade up at all costs.*.so the rss agents keep labouring at it hoping to CONFUSE and SIDE TRACK us all.

Dass is no scholar and has written all i know already..just go back and read it. I have NOTHING MORE to add to this totally irrelevant discussion. I beleive Ambarsariah veer has also done his best to untangle this uljhee tanni..but peoples keep placing knots or repeating knots over and over.. Thank You.

2. Bhai Gurdass ji uses a lot of METAPHOR...we have to read between the lines...in another palce he writes.. The PHALL of teaching one Shabad to a person is equivalent to Daan of FIVE mandirs of *GOLD*. Not everyone has the RESOURCES to DAAN Five mandirs of Gold...nay not even half a mandir...BUT even nimanney people like me have taught the entire SGGS to HUNDREDS...so How many GOLD Mandirs have I donated ??...looking at a few THOUSAND Shabds in SGGS ?? I hardly pay my monthly DASWANDH and its certainly not even 10 grammes of GOLD.....BUT Bhai Gurdass says different !!!


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 18, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Would any one suggest that the CAPITAL Letter to signify Proper Noun be scrapped ?? That its pointless and all should just write in small letters (Btw ALL CAPITALS is taken to mean SHOUTING..which is a NEW phenomenon in the world of English as a modern Internet language..as earlier ALL CAPITALS didnt mean shouting but just *EMPHASIS* !!
> 
> NO one least of all prof Sahib Singh ji is saying..SCRAP ALL LAGAN matras..what a ridiculous suggestion... What we are simply saying is that CERTAIN Aunkadds and Siharees ( ONLY) are being used as Capital letters are used in English. No one si remotel;y suggesting that ALL lagan matras all vowels etc should be scrapped..how ridiculous is that.
> 
> ...


 
I am sorry to say this message is not giving clear picture of the state of affairs.So long as nothing comes from either SGPC or other organisations which are SUPREME for us nothing should be expected .
So I think the subject matter is very clear to those who dont want to accept the pronunciation of Aukad and Sihari  vowels and on the other side those who advocate for the pronunciation.
The majority is for not to pronounce so let us honour the majority and I think this subject does not require any further interaction .
Better we get to a new one.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (May 18, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> I am sorry to say this message is not giving clear picture of the state of affairs.So long as nothing comes from either SGPC or other organisations which are SUPREME for us nothing should be expected .
> So I think the subject matter is very clear to those who dont want to accept the pronunciation of Aukad and Sihari  vowels and on the other side those who advocate for the pronunciation.
> The majority is for not to pronounce so let us honour the majority and I think this subject does not require any further interaction .
> Better we get to a new one.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash.S.Bagga or I would like to characterize your posts almost all of them as "lagaan and matra".  Can you please elaborate what the right meanings are rather than just keep repeating or flagging what is wrong.

I thought in another post you so emphatically declared to stop this dis-respectful mode of disruption and pseudo Grammar of yours.

Positively, What do you understand the difference between :Waheguroo and Wahiguru or ny other English style of writing it?  

When I say or think Waheguru I think "Wonderful One Creator" and all the rest that is stated and encouraged learning through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

What is important to you the understanding and what your inner self thinks *or* what your lips put out?  Even a "goongah"/mute will understand without ability to speak.

Focus on the inner self brother you are too much caught in declaring all to be wrong, the weeds and missing the good that is around in others.  

Please also stop using the global "WE" in your statements like "WE don't understand ....", etc., and keep it to yourself.  Similarly you use unless "THEY" as in some phantom place and collective do something nothing will work?  If that is the case I don't see any point in your posts and you might as well not post and wait for "THEY" to do their job.  Go out of Ludhiana to Amritsar and talk to so called "THEY".  Your flagged "THEY" are not too far from you.  If not, start contributing and stop complaining.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 18, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Prakash.S.Bagga or I would like to characterize your posts almost all of them as "lagaan and matra". Can you please elaborate what the right meanings are rather than just keep repeating or flagging what is wrong.
> 
> I thought in another post you so emphatically declared to stop this dis-respectful mode of disruption and pseudo Grammar of yours.
> 
> ...


 
For your kind information THere is no word in Gurbanee to be considered as Waheguru so you are the first required to rectify for this blunder you are committing.Since this word as Waheguru does not exist in Gurbanee so I cant give any meaning to this word.
The correct word is Wahiguru (if you consider Guru for Gur with matra of Dulakad)....It has the meaning which you may not agree because you dont believe in grammar of gurbanee words.

I can remind you a good song and listen to this for sure..Piyar Aankho se jataya to Buraa  man Gaye.'

When I read your message I do enjoy a quote as Habits are hard to die.

With best wishes and thanking for your wonderful remarks

Prakash.s.bagga


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## Khalistani_lion (May 18, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> I am sorry to say this message is not giving clear picture of the state of affairs.So long as nothing comes from either SGPC or other organisations which are SUPREME for us nothing should be expected .
> So I think the subject matter is very clear to those who dont want to accept the pronunciation of Aukad and Sihari  vowels and on the other side those who advocate for the pronunciation.
> The majority is for not to pronounce so let us honour the majority and I think this subject does not require any further interaction .
> Better we get to a new one.
> Prakash.S.Bagga




Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!
I do not agree with you on this one. This is like saying if majority thinks that Earth is flat, let's honour the majority and keep saying that Earth is flat.
When talking about pronounciation of Lagaan Matraa, we should also take into consideration the fact that few years ago from now, people were mostly illiterate or knew Shahmukhi only. Gurbani was only being taught in religious institutions (Dera if I put it in Prof. Sahib S. Ji’s words). Then after independence, Punjabi started in Punjab schools and more people start going to schools (Please correct me if I am wrong here). Proper pronunciation of Punjabi is taught in “Primary Schools” to kids and after early schooling, nobody even care about pronunciation. I remember when we were in Grade 7 in Punjab, one of our teacher asked if anybody knows full OORA AIRA (Punabi Pentee) and in our class nobody knew it. You guys know more than me that how much do Punjabi teachers care about proper pronunciation of Lagaan? So, from early education, in our schools, subconsciously we are taught that these Lagaan do not have much importance. You can test any M.A. in Punjabi to read Gurbani and check his pronunciation yourself. Let alone pronunciation, most of them would not even know how many Lagaan are there in total. So, this not caring about Lagaan was already there when Prof. Sahib Singh Ji wrote Gurbani Viakaran books. Prof. Ji himself unable to speak Lagaan as most of Punjabi scholars and already acceptance in the society of not pronouncing them, made them assume that they are for Grammar purpose only. Did Prof. Ji even write it down anywhere that we should not pronounce Lagaan?  (Giani Ji, Please if you can enlighten us here?)
Punjabi scholars can’t even pronounce Lagaan inside the word, Dolaan is pronounced as Laan in most of the Kirtan. You can even check Prof. Darshan S Kirtan. Now, would be start following them on this too?
S. Parkash Singh Ji you are more experienced than Daas, what are your views on why should we pronounce all Lagaan as they are written?


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## Ambarsaria (May 19, 2012)

Praksash.S.Bagga ji you get so excited in finding faults that you forget to check your own post logic or consistency





prakash.s.bagga said:


> For your kind information THere is no word in Gurbanee to be considered as Waheguru so _you are the first required to rectify for this blunder you are committing_.


_Pay attention to the thread.  It is not Gurmat Vichhar.  If the thread word under discussion is not part of Gurbani tell me what Grammar applies to it.  Punjabi Grammar would be found to be the answer.  Ask a Primary School teacher they will pronounce it and you can report it back.  See also post by Khalistani Lion ji as I have no idea where you went to school to study Punjabi as much kind of nonsense you talk about is not even a matter at issue if you taken Punjabi classes at a good School and a good teacher and there were many around and perhaps still are._



prakash.s.bagga said:


> Since _this word as Waheguru does not exist in Gurbanee_ so I cant give any meaning to this word.


_Another bunch of nonsense.  Are you saying there are no words in Punjabi outside of Gurbani and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?__  Who said or asked you to give Gurbani meaning even though for me Punjabi meaning and Gurbani meanings are not different but I think you want to kill this synergy or loving relationship._


prakash.s.bagga said:


> The correct word is Wahiguru (if you consider Guru for Gur with matra of Dulakad)....It has the meaning which you may not agree because you dont believe in grammar of gurbanee words.


_The thread starter did not ask you for correct word.  Asked you to pronounce Waheguru.  It is easily pronounced as written.  If different versions in Punjabi are spelled out these can be sounded out accordingly.  Pronunciation or phonetics is straightforward._

Much ado about nothing.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:*

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> ਪੰਨਾ 1402, ਸਤਰ 11
> *ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰ*ੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
> वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥
> vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o.
> ...





> ਪੰਨਾ 1402, ਸਤਰ 14
> ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ*ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰ*ੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥੬॥
> सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥१॥६॥
> Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||1||6||
> ...





> ਪੰਨਾ 1403, ਸਤਰ 12
> ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ *ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ* ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥
> सेवक कै भरपूर जुगु जुगु वाहगुरू तेरा सभु सदका ॥
> Sevak kai bẖarpūr jug jug vāhgurū ṯerā sabẖ saḏkā.
> ...


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## Khalistani_lion (May 19, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Prakash.S.Bagga or I would like to characterize your posts almost all of them as "lagaan and matra".  Can you please elaborate what the right meanings are rather than just keep repeating or flagging what is wrong.
> 
> I thought in another post you so emphatically declared to stop this dis-respectful mode of disruption and pseudo Grammar of yours.
> 
> ...




Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!
Ambarsaria Veer, we are just doing Vichar. You guys are Gurmukh, getting your help to clear up my doubts. Gurbani is my Guru, I give it utmost respect. Guru Sahib Ji has written each Lag Matra for me to read and pronounce, so its my duty and respect to take care of every Lag Matra along with the meaning. 
To clear up that Daas is not arguing about whether to spell Waheguroo or Wahiguru in English. What Daas is saying is that Gurbani should be pronounced as written by Guru Sahib Ji since all Lagaan Matraa have unique sound and could be pronounced with just a little more effort than we put into learning pronouncing Gurbani Ji without Lagaan Matraa.
Pronouncing Gurbani with all Lagaa Matraa would not only make it being pronounced completely but also help the listener to interpret it correctly according to Grammar. Gurbani Ji according to Grammar concept is invented by Prof. Sahib Singh Ji and that’s when we established the thought that Lagaan are to describe Grammar only and need not be pronounced. Now Daas’s question is What would have been Singhs doing before Prof. Ji? Now, Prof. Ji tells us where to pronounce Lag and where not, what about Guru Sahib Ji’s time before Prof. Sahib S?
Dr. Harkirat Singh (Linguist, Patiala University), who has same qualification as Prof Sahib Singh Ji has done his research and written a book saying all Lagaan should be pronounced. If we follow Sahib Singh Ji’s principal (all Lagaan need not be pronounced), than Dr. Harkirat Singh Ji should also be heard. 
Beside that pronunciation of Lagaan was highly favored in Damdami Taksal, old Gurbani School.

Akaal


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 19, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Praksash.S.Bagga ji you get so excited in finding fault sthat you forget to check your own post logic or consistency
> _Pay attention to the thread. It is not Gurmat Vichhar. If the thread word under discussion is not part of Gurbani tell me what Grammar applies to it. Punjabi Grammar would be found to be the answer. Ask a Primary School teacher they will pronounce it and you can report it back. See also post by Khalistani Lion ji as I have no idea where you went to school to study Punjabi as much kind of nonsense you talk about is not even a matter at issue if you taken Punjabi classes at a good School and a good teacher and there were many around and perhaps still are._
> 
> _Another bunch of nonsense. Are you saying there are no words in Punjabi outside of Gurbani and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?__ Who said or asked you to give Gurbani meaning even though for me Punjabi a meaning and Gurbani meanings are not different but I think you want to kill this synergy or loving relationship._
> ...




You can see for yourself where is the word like Waheguru.? The word written with letter V is absolutley Correct as per Gurmukhi words given in SGGS.This you had depicted ealier too.

I must always salute to your views .You are very expert in creating something out of nothing.You are really great.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (May 19, 2012)

Khalistani_lion ji thanks for your post.





Khalistani_lion said:


> Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!
> Ambarsaria Veer, we are just doing Vichar. You guys are Gurmukh, getting your help to clear up my doubts. Gurbani is my Guru, I give it utmost respect. Guru Sahib Ji has written each Lag Matra for me to read and pronounce, so its my duty and respect to take care of every Lag Matra along with the meaning.
> To clear up that Daas is not arguing about whether to spell Waheguroo or Wahiguru in English. What Daas is saying is that Gurbani should be pronounced as written by Guru Sahib Ji since all Lagaan Matraa have unique sound and could be pronounced with just a little more effort than we put into learning pronouncing Gurbani Ji without Lagaan Matraa.
> Pronouncing Gurbani with all Lagaa Matraa would not only make it being pronounced completely but also help the listener to interpret it correctly according to Grammar. Gurbani Ji according to Grammar concept is invented by Prof. Sahib Singh Ji and that’s when we established the thought that Lagaan are to describe Grammar only and need not be pronounced. Now Daas’s question is What would have been Singhs doing before Prof. Ji? Now, Prof. Ji tells us where to pronounce Lag and where not, what about Guru Sahib Ji’s time before Prof. Sahib S?
> ...


When I studied Punjabi I was taught to pronounce all and everything as accents, lagaans, matras, etc.  So may be I am assuming that all had this training and many may have different or no such training.  Such people need to go back to school and discussing a word here or there ad nausea is not going to help.  The word may be this thread or any other word.

I can pronounce any word as written in Punjabi without thinking too hard.

How so much gets made out of so little is beyond me.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria (May 19, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> You can see for yourself where is the word like Waheguru.? The word written with letter V is absolutley Correct as per Gurmukhi words given in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.This you had depicted ealier too.
> 
> I must always salute to your views .You are very expert in creating something out of nothing.You are really great.
> Prakash.s.Bagga


_Prakash.S.Bagga ji let us work within our area of knowledge and know how.  Your use of Capitals and lower case as a way to create phonetics from Punjabi to English is junk.  Phonetics between Languages is not that simple or always possible.  I have no expertise in Phonetics through Academic training and I have to suppose you have none.  Rest is just empty talk and empty claims.  I never comment on Phonetics but I generally commend Dr. Thind's effort.  It is not perfect but way better tha your upper or lower case approach which is a non-starter but you keep dwelling on it._

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 19, 2012)

Khalistani_lion said:


> Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!
> I do not agree with you on this one. This is like saying if majority thinks that Earth is flat, let's honour the majority and keep saying that Earth is flat.
> When talking about pronounciation of Lagaan Matraa, we should also take into consideration the fact that few years ago from now, people were mostly illiterate or knew Shahmukhi only. Gurbani was only being taught in religious institutions (Dera if I put it in Prof. Sahib S. Ji’s words). Then after independence, Punjabi started in Punjab schools and more people start going to schools (Please correct me if I am wrong here). Proper pronunciation of Punjabi is taught in “Primary Schools” to kids and after early schooling, nobody even care about pronunciation. I remember when we were in Grade 7 in Punjab, one of our teacher asked if anybody knows full OORA AIRA (Punabi Pentee) and in our class nobody knew it. You guys know more than me that how much do Punjabi teachers care about proper pronunciation of Lagaan? So, from early education, in our schools, subconsciously we are taught that these Lagaan do not have much importance. You can test any M.A. in Punjabi to read Gurbani and check his pronunciation yourself. Let alone pronunciation, most of them would not even know how many Lagaan are there in total. So, this not caring about Lagaan was already there when Prof. Sahib Singh Ji wrote Gurbani Viakaran books. Prof. Ji himself unable to speak Lagaan as most of Punjabi scholars and already acceptance in the society of not pronouncing them, made them assume that they are for Grammar purpose only. Did Prof. Ji even write it down anywhere that we should not pronounce Lagaan? (Giani Ji, Please if you can enlighten us here?)
> Punjabi scholars can’t even pronounce Lagaan inside the word, Dolaan is pronounced as Laan in most of the Kirtan. You can even check Prof. Darshan S Kirtan. Now, would be start following them on this too?
> S. Parkash Singh Ji you are more experienced than Daas, what are your views on why should we pronounce all Lagaan as they are written?


 

My understanding is that if lagaan matras are not pronounced we will not be able to understand the meaning of that particular message.
I have realised by the grace of GuRu that These maras are very significant as these matras give direction for the meanings of the words.
Secondly their pronunciation  is more important while listening to Gurbanee.If we dont pronounce properly the Gurbanee would simply appear as running matter only.and the listener may never be getting the understanding of true message which should be important for everyone.
This is what I feel about the effect of Laga matras for correct understanding of Gurbanee.
I may pl be corrected for any mistake or wrong understanding at my end.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 19, 2012)

The Confusion being created is by inserting the word "ALL" when thats a utterly ridiculous suggestion. NO one is suggesting ALL lagaan matran be not pronounced. How can anyone read correctly IF he/she disregards ALL lagaan matran.

Gurbani has been written with Grammatical Matran ( certain aunkadds and siharees ONLY.. NOT ALL aunkadds or siharees are grammar markers) Dh tatto rallaun walleh keep syaing..ALL all all where did prof sahib singh say ALL ?? etc etc..OF Course prof sahib singh  and everyone else including ME never said ALL..it makes no sense..

There are also certain vested interests who try and raise such confusion so ordinary sikhs will think..Gurbani is very confusing..difficult..why do paap..let the Pathi do the paath...Some insist ONLY Lareedaar writing is correct...when Lareedaar paath is ONLY for the experienced..learners can and should begin on SEPARATED Paath..That insistence is also an attempt to *MONOPOLISE GURBANI* and keep it away form interested sikhs....Lets NOT FORGET that TODAY many MILLIONS actually depend on GURBANI/SGGS to EARN A LIVING....Paaths are being SOLD for sums as big as 51,000 Rupees EACH....and its *BIG MULTI MILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS*...LONG QUES for "Paath BOOKING" exist in Almost ALL GURDWARAS worldwide...hundreds of thousands of paaths are going on daily...and ALL GENERATE vast sums of CASH....and of course lots of people wnat to MUSCLE IN and MONOPOLISE such readings..one prime Example is the NANAKSAREE DERAS..who apart from this lagaan matran thing have also introduced their own WEIRD Formulas into paath reading..which ONLY NANAKSAREES teach and practise...hence ensuring ONLY a Nanaksaree follower will do such paaths....

IF a kirtaniyah mispronounces Gurbani..its his LOSS...why we have to follow him ?? BUT if we criticize him..we should be able to do kirtan better than him..right ?? mnay love to simply ADD certain words into the Original Shabads..others simply EAT UP/SWALLOW certain words..others lay undue stress on certain words...others pause at places where there is NO RAHAO..and Go through rahao as if speeding thru   RED LIGHT..  DO WHAT IS RIGHT. PERIOD. remain TRUE to our GURU..not Humans.


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 19, 2012)

The contribution of all our previous scholars is greatly appreciable.
Prof Sahib Singh ji emphatically brought in limelight  the applicability of grammar of words in Gurbanee .He did a great Job.
Prof Sahib Singh in his Gurbanee Viyakaran Book  gives a good cosolidated account of understanding the grammar of words.But surprisingly in his interpretation of Gurbanee he can be found very selective and resrvative in application of grammar as a whole.
Next Dr Harkeerat Singh is a step ahead to point out about the applicabilty of grammar in totto as envisaged by PRof Sahib Singh ji.
There fore we should take into consideration the contribution of both to assess the utility of grammar as a whole in Gurbanee.
This is a good excercise for the benifit of all connected with SGGS.I think there is need to share this in a positve atmosphere of thinking and without being prejudiced             

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (May 19, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> The contribution of all our previous scholars is greatly appreciable.
> Prof Sahib Singh ji emphatically brought in limelight  the applicability of grammar of words in Gurbanee .He did a great Job.
> Prof Sahib Singh in his Gurbanee Viyakaran Book  gives a good cosolidated account of understanding the grammar of words.But surprisingly in his interpretation of Gurbanee he can be found very selective and resrvative in application of grammar as a whole.
> Next Dr Harkeerat Singh is a step ahead to point out about the applicabilty of grammar in totto as envisaged by PRof Sahib Singh ji.
> ...


Great idea brother.  

_Put your money where your mouth is_.  Do one complete shabad example of your own understanding with the above guidance you have given!

Otherwise it is not worth the keystrokes that you typed for the message.  cheerleader

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:  *While you are at it do the phonetics with all the right accents too *lol*.  Otherwise it is all empty word meant to distract and put down everyone's efforts as inadequate or not perfect enough.  

Let me know if any of the above is unclear.


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 19, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Great idea brother.
> 
> _Put your money where your mouth is_. Do one complete shabad example of your own understanding with the above guidance you have given!
> 
> ...


 
From where comes the great idea of Money? The same may be for you.
It may be possible for you to keep the money in mouth but I am unable to do that.
.

Prakash.s.bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 19, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> _Prakash.S.Bagga ji let us work within our area of knowledge and know how. Your use of Capitals and lower case as a way to create phonetics from Punjabi to English is junk. Phonetics between Languages is not that simple or always possible. I have no expertise in Phonetics through Academic training and I have to suppose you have none. Rest is just empty talk and empty claims. I never comment on Phonetics but I generally commend Dr. Thind's effort. It is not perfect but way better tha your upper or lower case approach which is a non-starter but you keep dwelling on it._
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
Are you seriously prepared to do that I doubt.
I need not do. some scholars have already done this  but you are going to reject as usual.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Ishna (May 19, 2012)

For clarity:

*Idiom Definitions for 'Put your money where your mouth is'*

If someone puts their money where their mouth is, they back up their words with action.


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## Khalistani_lion (May 19, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Would any one suggest that the CAPITAL Letter to signify Proper Noun be scrapped ?? That its pointless and all should just write in small letters (Btw ALL CAPITALS is taken to mean SHOUTING..which is a NEW phenomenon in the world of English as a modern Internet language..as earlier ALL CAPITALS didnt mean shouting but just *EMPHASIS* !!
> 
> NO one least of all prof Sahib Singh ji is saying..SCRAP ALL LAGAN matras..what a ridiculous suggestion... What we are simply saying is that CERTAIN Aunkadds and Siharees ( ONLY) are being used as Capital letters are used in English. No one si remotel;y suggesting that ALL lagan matras all vowels etc should be scrapped..how ridiculous is that.
> 
> ...






Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Would any one suggest that the CAPITAL Letter to signify Proper Noun be scrapped ?? *EMPHASIS* !!


No, nobody would suggest that. Then, Why would someone suggest to not Pronounce Unkar Sihari to last Akhar that signify Noun or Verb (as you equating Capital Letters to Aunkar Sihari)?



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> NO one least of all prof Sahib Singh ji is saying..SCRAP ALL LAGAN matras..what a ridiculous suggestion... What we are simply saying is that CERTAIN Aunkadds and Siharees ( ONLY) are being used as Capital letters are used in English.


Then these Capital Letters (aunkar Sihari to last letter as you saying in above line) should be pronounced as we pronounce them in English. 
Not ALL but Aunkar Sihari to Last AKhar? This is what your previous post indicates:


Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> A very long time ago...when a Telegraph was the only way to convey a message..every GRAMATICAL INDACATOR was SPELT OUT. Example..I still have the Telegraph that I received form the Uni informing me about my admission. It reads..
> 
> Dear Mister Jarnail *COMMA*   Your admission approved *STOP* Please arrange to make necessary payment *STOP *Also arrange to bring along the following personal items - bedding *COMMA* bedspread COMMA comforter COMMA as these are not provided in the hostel *STOP* Please note that attendance at University is required to pay all fees et cetera *STOP*
> 
> ...


Here again you are comparing Apples with Oranges. Giani Ji English language is changing like every other language does, Punjabi language is changing too.  Shakespearean English language had different pronunciation than today’s language. But, it does not mean that they change Shakespearean language, they pronounce it exactly it was being spoken at Shakespearean time. 



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> This Lagna Matran DEBATE is actually a DEEP SEATED CONSPIRACY by the RSS Hindutva trained Brigaed....a certain Tamil professor was given a HUGE GRANT of a few Kror rupees to do essentially the JOB of MUTILATING Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by PHYSICALLY CUTTING OUT ALL lagaan matrans...only by a fortunate accident he was EXPOSED and sacked from this Project. He had used a Sharp Blade to cut out ALL siharees, biharees, aunkadds, dulaknads, dulavan lavan kanas etc etc as IRRELEVANT !!.


Instead of stepping out of the box, let’s blame it on RSS. 
It’s well said in this book: 
If you start to think the problem is "out there," stop yourself. That thought is the problem. (- 7 Habits of Most Effective People)



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Having FAILED miserably in that First attempt..NOW the SECOND LINE of attack is to keep this so called Gur-Gur(u)..sat(i)gur(u) ..Naam and Naam(u) Sabad and Sabad(u)..etc etc..*charade up at all costs.*.so the rss agents keep labouring at it hoping to CONFUSE and SIDE TRACK us all.


My computer is freezing. RSS failed to harm me from their website, NOW the SECOND LINE of Attack is sending viruses to my computer. peacesign



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Dass is no scholar and has written all i know already..just go back and read it. I have NOTHING MORE to add to this totally irrelevant discussion. I beleive Ambarsariah veer has also done his best to untangle this uljhee tanni..but peoples keep placing knots or repeating knots over and over.. Thank You.



Dass’s benti is if we are not sure about something, we shouldn’t discourage others from going in right direction. I just saw this pronunciation topic few days ago and read you posts on bigging up Prof. Sahib Singh and dissing other Gursikhs. Now, you will say what a rediculous comment, let me cite it:



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Now to the PRONOUNCERS...a long time ago..BEFORE Prof Sahib Singhs book on Gurbani Grammar came along and .."DEFLATED THEIR TYRES"...in  a manner of speaking....these PRONOUNCING LOBBY ( same saadh lobby that is pro DG, pro Bikrimi Calendar, pro everything backward and anti SGPC, Akal takhat, Pad chhed birs, Mool Mnatar up to Gurparsaad etc etc - that is Before the 1980's - after the Wipe out of the Kharrkoos and proliferation of he derawaad and sadhs..the sgpc takhats etc are all under their control..so now they dont oppose those...just DONT FOLLOW the SRM etc which they are waiting to RUBBISH slowly as they ahve managed to do with the Nankshahi Calendar.)...........Sorry to digress..long Ago..these Pronouncers used to take LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOng breaths on all siharees and aunkarrs ...they would pronounce the SHAH(u) as SHAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
> Then Prof sahib Singh ji cmae along...discovered the UNIQUE RULES used in GURBANI..debunked all the UTTERLY MEANINGLES...shahoooooooooooooos.....and published his Darpan.....the saadhs had NO ANSWER except to RETREAT..but not GIVE UP. So they "pronounce"...the siharees and aunkarrs..but with soft stance....



ਸਾਰੇ ਗੁਰਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਇੱਕੋ ਪੱਲੜੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਤੋਲੀਦਾ ਜੀ।

Giani Ji, you are saying “Deflated their tyres”, but this is what Bhai Gurdas Sahib Ji says about Saadhs:

ਕਿਤੜੇ ਸਾਧ ਵਖਾਣੀਅਨਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਰਉਪਕਾਰੀ।
Many sadhus are there who move in the holy congregation and are benevolent.


ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਲਖ ਸੰਤ ਜਨ ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਨਿਜ ਭਗਤਿ ਭੰਡਾਰੀ।
Millions of saints are there who continuously go on filling the coffers of their devotion.

ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਜੀਵਨ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ।
Many are liberated in life; they have knowledge of Brahm and meditate upon Brahm.

ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਸਮਦਰਸੀਆ ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੀ।
Many are egalitarians and many more are spotless, clean and followers of the formless Lord.


ਕਿਤੜੇ ਲਖ ਬਿਬੇਕੀਆ ਕਿਤੜੇ ਦੇਹ ਬਿਦੇਹ ਅਕਾਰੀ।
Many are there with analytical wisdom; many are body less though they have bodies i.e. they are above the desires of body.

ਭਾਇ ਭਗਤਿ ਭੈ ਵਰਤਣਾ ਸਹਜ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਬੈਰਾਗ ਸਵਾਰੀ।
They conduct themselves in loving devotion and make equipoise and detachment their vehicle to move around.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਖ ਫਲ ਗਰਬੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੀ ॥੧੪॥
Erasing ego from the self, gurmukhs obtain the fruits of the supreme delight.




Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Also Passive Actiev Voice..and pronouns adjectives etc etc..are all parts of grammar and all are used in Gurbani. Only a well versed linguist.grammatist can be fluent in this.Its not an easy task...especially as Paath was taught by ROTE in most Taksals and religious schools...one just repeats after the mahapurash who spent his life repeating after the earlier mahapurash. ...now a days even that is lacking...as one who has just completed one paath is deputed to begin teaching others..and so on..



Yea Giani Ji, whole Sikh religion was doing Ardaasan to Guru Sahib Ji to send Prof. Sahib Singh to this earth to teach them Passive Active...all parts of Grammar. Even, Guru Sahib Ji didn’t know about Grammar that’s why they didn’t teach it to Sikhs. Thanks God, Prof. Sahib Singh Ji was born! All Talsaals and Mahanpursh...repeating after repeating earlier mahapursh just wasted their lives in repeating only. Thanks, Prof. Sahib Singh Ji!! 



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> 2. Bhai Gurdass ji uses a lot of METAPHOR...we have to read between the lines...in another palce he writes.. The PHALL of teaching one Shabad to a person is equivalent to Daan of FIVE mandirs of *GOLD*. Not everyone has the RESOURCES to DAAN Five mandirs of Gold...nay not even half a mandir...BUT even nimanney people like me have taught the entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to HUNDREDS...so How many GOLD Mandirs have I donated ??...looking at a few THOUSAND Shabds in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ?? I hardly pay my monthly DASWANDH and its certainly not even 10 grammes of GOLD.....BUT Bhai Gurdass says different !!!


Again Giani Ji you are questioning Bhai Sahib Ji’s Kabit in your post by showing lack of trust (ਸ਼ਰਧਾ) in Bhai Sahib Ji’s word. Bhai Sahib Ji is not telling you to give away Mandirs of Gold, he is saying that you will get quivalent Phall of giving away Mandirs of Gold. It has nothing to do with what Daswand you pay or not.
Kabit:

ਪੰਚ ਬਾਰ ਗੰਗ ਜਾਇ ਬਾਰ ਪੰਚ ਪ੍ਰਾਗ ਨਾਇ ਤੈਸਾ ਪੁੰਨ ਏਕ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਕਉ ਨਵਾਏ ਕਾ। 
ਸਿਖ ਕਉ ਪਿਲਾਇ ਪਾਨੀ ਭਾਉ ਕਰ ਕੁਰਖੇਤ ਅਸ੍ਵਮੇਧ ਜਗ ਫਲ ਸਿਖ ਕਉ ਜਿਵਾਏ ਕਾ।
ਜੈਸੇ ਸਤ ਮੰਦਰ ਕੰਚਨ ਕੇ ਉਸਾਰ ਦੀਨੇ ਤੈਸਾ ਪੁੰਨ ਸਿਖ ਕਉ ਇਕ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਸਿਖਾਏ ਕਾ।
ਜੈਸੇ ਬੀਸ ਬਾਰ ਦਰਸਨ ਸਾਧ ਕੀਆ ਕਾਹੂ ਤੈਸਾ ਫਲ ਸਿਖ ਕਉ ਚਾਪ ਪਗ ਸੁਆਏ ਕਾ॥

Giani Ji, Daas is not finding faults, but the problem is that all your answers are biased to Prof. Sahib Singh Ji. You are seeing everything through Prof. Sahib Singh Ji’s glasses.

Daas Khima da Jachak aa Ji.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 19, 2012)

khalsitani lion jio....daas nu vee khimaa karnee jee.
Lets agree to disagree. Btw the English I mentioned is NOT Shakespeare..But English in 1970...Malaysia..when we had to send TELEGRAPHS..i dont think you have seen a copy...google one...so Apples do look like oranges..sometimes if we are not too picky..
Whatever i see I see..whether its through Bhai Sahib Singh jis eyes or through Bhai Thakur Singh's eyes..makes no difference because i see what i see..that is GURU jis KIRPA on Me.
So khima karnee.japposatnamwaheguru:


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 19, 2012)

onspjo said:


> First of all, Guru Gobind Singh Sahibji de gurpurab di bahut bahut wadhai howe.
> 
> Secondly, Please help me on this:
> What is the correct pronunciation of the word: Waheguru.
> ...


 
From the Gurmukhi word itself it is very clear as to what should be the pronunciation of this word.
There is obvious matra of Sihari with the last letter of the word WAH.

There is no indication of matra related to Vowel  E in the word WAH.

I just fail to understand why there should be so much confusion in accepting correct pronunciation.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (May 19, 2012)

For what it is worth a layman's attempt at describing phonetics in English as below,

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> ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ
> ਵਾ--  Wa  -- as in Wawa
> ਹਿ --  Hi  --  as in Hick
> ਗੁ --  Goe  -- as in Goethe
> ...


The other word as,  


> *ਵਾਹਗੁ*ਰੂ
> ਵਾ--  Wa  -- as in Wawa
> *ਹ**  --  Ha --  as in Haha* (note that *a* should be half an a sound)
> ਗੁ --  Goe  -- as in Goethe
> ...


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> ਵਾਹੇਗੁਰੂ
> ਵਾ--  Wa  -- as in Wawa
> ਹੇ-- Hay  -- as in Hay
> ਗੁ --  Goe  -- as in Goethe
> ...


I stand corrected.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Khalistani_lion (May 19, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> khalsitani lion jio....daas nu vee khimaa karnee jee.
> Lets agree to disagree. Btw the English I mentioned is NOT Shakespeare..But English in 1970...Malaysia..when we had to send TELEGRAPHS..i dont think you have seen a copy...google one...so Apples do look like oranges..sometimes if we are not too picky..
> Whatever i see I see..whether its through Bhai Sahib Singh jis eyes or through Bhai Thakur Singh's eyes..makes no difference because i see what i see..that is GURU jis KIRPA on Me.
> So khima karnee.japposatnamwaheguru:




Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!

Daas respect both Bhai Sahib Singh Ji and Giani Thakur Singh Ji for their Seva but don't agree with everything that they say. By the way, Giani Thakur Singh Ji himself could not pronounce every Aunkar and Sihari to the last letter, although in his Muharni teaching Video he says that they were taught to pronounce every LAG.
Pronunciation of Aunkar and Sihari to last letter is also supported by Dr. Harkirat Singh (Linguist, Patiala University) in his book who is equally qualified as Prof. Sahib Singh Ji.
So, Daas dee benti is that pronouncing Aunkar Sihari to last akhar should also be considered and practised or atleast, Sangat shouldn't be discouraged from pronouncing it. 

ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੀ ਹਰਿ ਧੂੜਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਹਮ ਪਾਪੀ ਭੀ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਂਹਿ॥

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!



Daas came across this Bibliography of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji about Shudh Ucharan:


Studies
 The debate surrounding correct pronunciation of Gurbani started around 1975. However, before this there had been written works on Gurbani language, such as by Bhai Randhir Singh, Principal Teja Singh and Prof. Sahib Singh where the Gurbani pronunciation was commented. The issue of correct pronunciation of Gurbani was discussed at a Path-Bodh Samagam held in Amritsar. Giani Gurditt Singh, a famous Panthic scholar made the first lecture on this issue. This debate was also published in the ’Singh Sabha Patrika’, a monthly journal at that time edited by Giani ji.
 The major argument of Giani Gurditt Singh was that Gurbani pronunciation should follow the norm of contemporary Punjabi language. His view was that the Gurbani language was infact the language spoken in Punjab at that time, ie the Puratan Punjabi. This view was also supported by Principal Harbhajan Singh in his book Gurbani Sampadan Nirnay, written in 1981. These scholars followed the approach by Prof. Sahib Singh and his views about the compilation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.
 However, this view was criticized by Sirdar Inder Singh, a member of the Chief Khalsa Diwan, Delhi. In 1985, Inder Singh and a famous Punjabi linguist, Dr Harkeerat Singh published a work on the pronunciation of Gurbani. The two scholars again published a book the issue in 1993, and Harkeerat Singh has also commented the issue in detail in his latest book,Gurbani di Bhasa te Vyakaran, from 1997.
 The linguistic approach to this problem is that langauge does not have a fixed share or form, it evolves with time. The Bani found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib was written between 1173 AD (Baba Farid) and 1675 AD (Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib), and it is natural that there is a great linguistic variation between these five hundred years. Therefore, we find differences in not only grammar, but also the vocabulary and the pronunciation. This explains why we find several forms of spellings and sentence-formations in Gurbani.
 The three major arguments found in the writings of Harkeerat Singh have their background in this view. He says that the Puratan Punjabi had different tones as compared with the modern Punjabi. At that time, he says, only the vocabulary was taken by Arabic and Persian, not the pronunciation. Thus, the words found in Gurbani without the pairi bindi, that we today write with that sign, were pronounced without those sounds in the Guru-period. Secondly, he says that Gurbani langauge was influenced by the Lahndi dialect (or Multani), that was considered the standard Punjabi at the time. Later on, the standard became the central Punjabi dialect of Amritsar (Majhi or Taksali boli). While, the Lahndi had very little nasal sounds, the Amritsari dialect had developed the sounds represented by the tippi and the bindi. However, when Gurbani was written it was pronounced without these sounds, as was the case with the Lahndi dialect. Therefore, Gurbani does not have these signs at places where we today would write them to show the nasal sounds.
The third major debate is about the value of sihari and aunkar. In this view, Prof. Sahib Singh, Teja Singh and Bhai Randhir Singh had said that these represent the grammatical structure of the Shabad-vak, and are interpretive tools, and may not be pronounced. However, Harkeerat Singh has also breaked away from the grammarians at this point saying that as Punjabi language developed from the Prakrit and Apabhrãshas, these langauges had sihari and aunkar both in writing and pronunciation. Thus, the siharis and aunkars found in Gurbani should be pronouned, according to this view.
 This makes Harkeerat Singh and Inder Singh’s arguments very clear, meaning that Gurbani should be pronounced exactly as it is written in Gurmukhi script. Every symbol found in Gurbani is there because it was pronounced in the original tongue of the Guru-period.


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 20, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> For what it is worth a layman's attempt at describing phonetics in English as below,
> 
> The other word as,
> I stand corrected.
> ...


 
 Ref ...your message #87
The word as depicted in third and last quote is not there in Gurbanee. Whereas ist and 2nd Quote words are very much there in Gurbanee .Can one create a word of his own and make a claim to be the word of Gurbanee? This amounts to nothing but manipulation.
This needs to be corrected.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (May 20, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Ref ...your message #87
> The word as depicted in third and last quote is not there in Gurbanee. Whereas ist and 2nd Quote words are very much there in Gurbanee ._Can one create a word of his own and make a claim to be the word of Gurbanee? This amounts to nothing but manipulation._
> This needs to be corrected.
> Prakash.s.Bagga


Prakash.S.Bagga ji are you really that thick.  The words and pronunciations are Punjabi.  *I don't claim or pretend connections to Gurbani neither did I state any in the post.*  Not every word in Punjabi and written in many ways has to do with Gurbani.  Languages add words all the time and people can write many variations.  They can then describe what they mean.  Some will make sense and be accepted and others will not.  I simply showed accents and possible meanings given the commonality of syllables.

Please read the posts without venom and approach to finding faults.  Just reflect on your posts in this thread, other than finding faults what have you personally contributed?  Respectfully, this is not expected of a 60 year old learned Sikh.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Luckysingh (May 20, 2012)

Indian speaking  languages have a few pronunciation problems when it comes to english speaking languages.
An example is the sharp 'V' sound in english that is not used much in indian speaking languages. This 'V' sound is made by putting your upper teeth on to bottom lip and saying 'E' from the base of your mouth,- result is a sharp 'V' as in 'Victory' or 'Vertical'

In indian speaking there is also no direct 'W' sound, the W and V sound which is ਵ, comes somewhere in between the 2 english sounds.
Probably the most closest indian word with 'V' to english 'V' is 'Vaadiyanh'

Even the dialects vary in indian from gepgraphical areas, such as the word 'Vadha' meaning 'big' or 'large' will be heard with a sharper 'V' in areas like 'Vadha' or with a more casual 'W' such as 'Waddha', depending on where you hear it.

This 'V' also causes the problems with the mispronounced 'W' that we commonly hear in indian speaking english-
such as
 'Vindow' instead of 'window'
'Vann O'clock' instead of 'One O'clock'
'Vait a minute' instead of 'Wait a minute'
'Wordical' instead of 'Vertical' - this is often heard here as the indians will put on an american influenced accent with their words. (from the way they are taught in many indian areas now)
'Very bewildering' on the other hand will be pronounced 'Wery beVildering'

The list is endless
Some of you may find this a little amusing and be sniggering as you will recall hearing these pronunciations in your experiences, but these 'W''s and 'V's are very often mixed up for this very reason.

We all know these mispronunciation of words and accents are used as the butt of endlees jokes about indians, but the few punjabis that I have tried to teach in order to correct them seem to have a great deal of difficulty grasping the application and difference in 'V's and 'W's.

Now, with all this mind, you will understand what I'm getting at here.
On this thread we are discussing 'correct pronunciation of WAHEGURU'

This itself is open to debate on NOT THE GRAMMAR but simple pronounciation by a pure english speaking or the indian english speaking. 
We know that there is a difference if english is your first or second language.
 In this case we would regard people born or who have been raised as children here in the west as having english as 1st language, and people from India as having it as 2nd language.


Waheguru
Vaheguru


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## Ambarsaria (May 20, 2012)

Luckysingh ji thanks for your post.  My inspiration for "Wa" comes from listening to the name Wawa (a town in Ontario, Canada) by people with first language English.  If you have friend with first language English, ask them to say it, it is fun.  There is incredibly exact match to the sound I always heard for 

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That is my reference.  

English of course is not my first language.  However outside of home I have only spoken English for the last 42 years including during all education during this period.


Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 21, 2012)

There is no "dispute" about how Guru is pronunced..and the pronounciation fo WAHE is also beyond dispute ..so it naturally follows that any attempts to create confusion when the two are joined up..WAHE-GURU...is  a self defeating exercise in futility. Thats why the lines contain many WAHEGURU....and also a WAHE at the end....Wahe Jio.


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## Harry Haller (May 21, 2012)

Ask a punjabi to pronounce USB, I find more often than not it comes out as Joo Ess Bee, explanations?


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## Khalistani_lion (May 21, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Ask a punjabi to pronounce USB, I find more often than not it comes out as Joo Ess Bee, explanations?



Its that Punjabi's lack of understanding of correct pronunciation of USB that the sound of U is  ਯੂ,  not ਜੂ


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 21, 2012)

A Punjabi teacher pronounced Psychology..as *Fasaai Challo Ji.*..apologies becasue only a Punjabi can get this joke.


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## Luckysingh (May 21, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Ask a punjabi to pronounce USB, I find more often than not it comes out as Joo Ess Bee, explanations?


 
Yeh, good one, I didn't realise that one. But there isn't that sound made with U as in 'you' or 'Uganda'.
I think the 'Y' sound as in 'Yard' or 'Yaar' is more common there doesn't seem to be many Y followed by U or Ooo sound as in Yugoslavia.
But, I think you agree with the common V and W's I stated earlier.
It's just that these sounds are hardly used in indian languages, like the USB sound you say.


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 22, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Prakash.S.Bagga ji are you really that thick. The words and pronunciations are Punjabi. *I don't claim or pretend connections to Gurbani neither did I state any in the post.* Not every word in Punjabi and written in many ways has to do with Gurbani. Languages add words all the time and people can write many variations. They can then describe what they mean. Some will make sense and be accepted and others will not. I simply showed accents and possible meanings given the commonality of syllables.
> 
> Please read the posts without venom and approach to finding faults. Just reflect on your posts in this thread, other than finding faults what have you personally contributed? Respectfully, this is not expected of a 60 year old learned Sikh.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 

One should understand what the thread is about?
.The thread is for specific Word s pronunciation.Why unnecessarily create deviations for confusion.?
As ever I am grateful for your remarks and views.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Luckysingh (May 22, 2012)

If you can't FEEL the word 'waheguru' resonating inside you, then it doesn't matter wether you pronounce it one way or the other, right or wrong.


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## Harry Haller (May 23, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> One should understand what the thread is about?
> .The thread is for specific Word s pronunciation.Why unnecessarily create deviations for confusion.?
> As ever I am grateful for your remarks and views.
> 
> Prakash.s.Bagga



Prakash Veerji, 

As someone who unnecessarily creates deviations for confusion in almost every thread, that is a bit rich. 

lol lol mundahug


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## Luckysingh (May 23, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> One should understand what the thread is about?
> .The thread is for specific Word s pronunciation.Why unnecessarily create deviations for confusion.?
> As ever I am grateful for your remarks and views.
> 
> Prakash.s.Bagga


 
Prakash ji

Harry ji is correct, many of the threads have been hijacked with unnecessary grammar issues that deviate in no paricular direction or with a valid explanation.


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## Ktanyag (Aug 19, 2022)

onspjo said:


> First of all, Guru Gobind Singh Sahibji de gurpurab di bahut bahut wadhai howe.
> 
> Secondly, Please help me on this:
> What is the correct pronunciation of the word: Waheguru.
> ...


Actually its a bit confusing how every body says (Wa hae) Guru but when I was young my Grandmother always use to say (Wah) Guru, it always use to feel different then all of us use to say, as she studied and learned all gurmukhi and path from Gurudwara at her young age. So when I say it like her it makes so much difference and easy to me to say (Wah) Guru) or (Wah) Guru Ji Ka Khalsa (Wah) Guru Ji Ki Fathe. Be forgive if say something wrong but that's my thoughts


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## swarn bains (Aug 19, 2022)

firstly the waheguru or wahiguru is written by bhat gayand on sggss pag 1402 and 1403
next how it came to be ; before gayand, parmanand keeps praying and sayign wah guru and repeat
then the next came the turn of Gayand; he also started praying by saying wah guru, wah guru. then he combined the  two togather. gramatically it can become waheguru or wahiguru. Gayand adopted the word W A H I G U R U.the sihari is  proniunced as half or not complete like heee.
then bhai gurdas also copied it and made his own which is  completely wrong explanation although he also said wahiguru.
wahiguru is the correct word because other than Gayand no one has mentioned it in sggs.


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## swarn bains (Aug 21, 2022)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Ambarsariah Ji, Gurfateh.
> 
> YES JI..Prof sahib Singh Ji has doen a Monumental seva of the Guru Khalsa Panth with hsi Grammar based Guru Granth darpan in 10 Volumes. Its the Best katah so far.
> 
> ...


you are great giani jee. thank u


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