# Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet?



## jinni (Jul 4, 2004)

Sikhs do call, Guru Nanak as their Prophet. Which is wrong, becos hazrat Muhammad [SAW]was the last prophet, and all others who claim to be one, are hypocrites and false prophet.

Guru Nanak was no Prophet just reformer, it would be clear by reading the fowlling.

*Qualities of a Prophet of God * 

No one can become a prophet of God by his own choosing or effort; Allah has to choose him to be His prophet. And Allah chooses only such persons who have all the qualities necessary for that role, and He does so at the appropriate time in history, and then He protects His prophets from falling into the kind of errors that do not suit a prophet. 

The first duty that a prophet of God does is to tell his people that he has been appointed a prophet by God to invite people to His way. Thus, a genuine prophet claims to be a prophet of God, though this claim in itself is not enough. But first and foremost, a prophet has to claim himself to be a prophet of God. The people often question this claim and threaten him to give up his claim. They may even offer him all kinds of temptations that ordinary humans would fall for. But the genuine prophets ignore these and go forward with their God-given mission. 

So, the first question you need to ask your Sikh friend is: Did Nanak really claim to be a prophet chosen by God to lead people out of darkness into light? 

If the answer is “no,” tell him that this proves that prophethood was conferred on him by his zealous followers and it is meaningless to continue to argue that Nanak was a prophet. 

If the answer is “yes,” the second question is: Did Nanak approve of the roles of earlier prophets of God, especially the prophet who came just before him, Muhammad (peace be on him)? 

If he says “yes,” ask him then how one can reconcile the fact that Muhammad was the Last Prophet of God and the claim that Nanak was a prophet after the Last Prophet. 

The third question is whether all the Sikhs believe that their holy book, called the Adi Granth, was revealed to Nanak by God. If they say “yes,” ask them whether there is any statement to that effect in the book itself and whether Nanak said that the Adi Granth had been fully revealed to him by God. If the answer is in the affirmative, your Sikh friend has to show the proof that the above statements are true, from the Adi Granth itself. This will not be possible for him to do for the following reasons: 

1. The Adi Granth is a collection of the writings of many Gurus including Nanak. It was in 1604—Nanak died in 1539—that Arjan Dev, one of the ten Gurus, compiled the hymns of Guru Nanak along with the compositions of both Hindu and Muslim holy men like Jaidev, Surdas, Sheikh Farid and Kabir. The compiled book was enshrined by Arjan in the Golden Temple with the name “Adi Granth.” 

2. A prophet of God is a model for all his followers in all aspects of life. But in the case of Sikhism, we find that it was not Guru Nanak, but the tenth Guru, Gobind Singh, who organized the community of Sikhs into a khalsa, “a spiritual brotherhood devoted to purity of thought and action.” He taught his followers to wear long hair (kesh, denoting saintly appearance), underwear (kachha, denoting self-control), an iron bangle (kara, denoting purity in acts), a comb (kangha, denoting cleanliness of mind and body), and a sword (kirpan, denoting fight for a just cause). 

3. Towards the end of his life, the aged Nanak returned home to Punjab and settled down at Kartharpur with his family. People came from far and near to hear his hymns and preaching. After his death, his Hindu followers thought him to be a Hindu and his Muslim followers thought him to be a Muslim. 

From the foregoing, we understand that Guru Nanak was not a prophet of God, but a religious reformer of his times.


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## BabbarSher (Jul 8, 2004)

Jinni: 


Sikhs do call, Guru Nanak as their Prophet. Which is wrong, becos hazrat Muhammad [SAW]was the last prophet, and all others who claim to be one, are hypocrites and false prophet.

*Firstly Hazrat Mohammed said himslef that he was the last Prophet. What is the proof that he was the last prophet apart from this.? * 


Guru Nanak was no Prophet just reformer, it would be clear by reading the fowlling.

*Guru Nanak Dev Ji was much more than a Prophet. 

The defination of Prophet as per Islam is a 'warner' not a guide..Prophets just warn, or prophesise, they dont guide. 

Guru Nanak Dev Ji had the Jot of Waheguru, and hence was one with God. He was NOT warned like the Prophet of doom, nor was God ever angry with him. 

He was chosen to guide people on the way of Naam, the religion of God.* 


So, the first question you need to ask your Sikh friend is: Did Nanak really claim to be a prophet chosen by God to lead people out of darkness into light? 

If the answer is “no,” tell him that this proves that prophethood was conferred on him by his zealous followers and it is meaningless to continue to argue that Nanak was a prophet. 



*Hee hee. I have already answered your question above and I think in the light of the above the remaining questions are invalid. * 

*The Gurus of the sikhs were not mere Prophet, who were subject to judgement, rather they were Masters for the sikhs who had the Jot of God.* 

If the answer is “yes,” the second question is: Did Nanak approve of the roles of earlier prophets of God, especially the prophet who came just before him, Muhammad (peace be on him)? 


*Now to address your questions with logic of the likeness you have used ;-) * 
If he says “yes,” ask him then how one can reconcile the fact that Muhammad was the Last Prophet of God and the claim that Nanak was a prophet after the Last Prophet. 
*
It was rather clever of the Prophet to decalre himslef the last prophet. By that he wanted to make Islam the most popular religion. In fact not only did he say he was the last prophet, suring the latter period of his life he even negated the folowings of the earlier prophets. * 

*For if the followings of the early prophets were also true, then there would be no need for the last prophet - Prophet Mohammed to be on this earth and give his own teachings. 

The biggest teaching that muslims claim is of Tawheed or the oneness of God. This is not something unique, is it. The Jews knew about this before the pagans of Arabia knew. 

In facte I would suggest that you give up claims to Israel and let them libve in peace as the Jews are th original people to know about Tawheed. They are the original Momins * 

The third question is whether all the Sikhs believe that their holy book, called the Adi Granth, was revealed to Nanak by God. If they say “yes,” ask them whether there is any statement to that effect in the book itself and whether Nanak said that the Adi Granth had been fully revealed to him by God. 
*
Yes. Guru Granth Sahib has got hymns which clearly convey the message that this is the message of God. * 
*
In fact it turns out thatwhile Guru Granth Sahib has no inconsistencies in concept, the Quran is full of big blunders. 

Not only does it deviate from the spirtual aspct of life, it also breeds hate and violence among the various people. * 
*
The lesser said about the Quaranic inconsistencies, the better..but If you want I would be glad to reproduce for you tracts.....which have been translated by muslim authors themselves.   * 


If the answer is in the affirmative, your Sikh friend has to show the proof that the above statements are true, from the Adi Granth itself. 
*
Like I said, just say it and they will be reproduced on this very Forum. * 

This will not be possible for him to do for the following reasons: 

1. The Adi Granth is a collection of the writings of many Gurus including Nanak. It was in 1604—Nanak died in 1539—that Arjan Dev, one of the ten Gurus, compiled the hymns of Guru Nanak along with the compositions of both Hindu and Muslim holy men like Jaidev, Surdas, Sheikh Farid and Kabir. The compiled book was enshrined by Arjan in the Golden Temple with the name “Adi Granth.” 

*Yes. Because unlike narrow minded biased Islamic relgion, Sikhism belives that anyone can achieve God. Those who achieved God, only their compositions are included in Guru Granth Sahib. 

The touchstone used to test was the Baani which the Gurus thmselves received from 'Dhur'. The touchstone prooved that the Baani of the Bhagats was Ilaahi Baani indeed. 

Please note that Gurbaani is all about God, NOT about some piddly myths - which wont even stand the test of time and histroy. 

Gurbani is about truth, NOT about false 

Gurbani is about Love, not about hating ur fellow beings 

Gurbani is about Naam, and focusses ion worship of One True God, NOT some prophet. * 

2. A prophet of God is a model for all his followers in all aspects of life. But in the case of Sikhism, we find that it was not Guru Nanak, but the tenth Guru, Gobind Singh, who organized the community of Sikhs into a khalsa, “a spiritual brotherhood devoted to purity of thought and action.” He taught his followers to wear long hair (kesh, denoting saintly appearance), underwear (kachha, denoting self-control), an iron bangle (kara, denoting purity in acts), a comb (kangha, denoting cleanliness of mind and body), and a sword (kirpan, denoting fight for a just cause). 

*You dont even understand the basic principles of sikhism. Suggest that you go and study some books. 

The Jot which permeated in Guru Nanak moved from him to the rest of the Gurus. The 'moorat' - physical body was different byt the concepts and the Jot was the same. 

The iron was readied by Guru Nanak Dev J, The steel was made and forged into the steel by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The transformation from a piddly * *human beings were converted into the complete saint 
soldier - the Khalsa. * 

3. Towards the end of his life, the aged Nanak returned home to Punjab and settled down at Kartharpur with his family. People came from far and near to hear his hymns and preaching. After his death, his Hindu followers thought him to be a Hindu and his Muslim followers thought him to be a Muslim. 

*Because everyone wants to own an enlightened person. ;-) 

Wonder why the Jews did not come forward to claim prophet Mohammed as a jew and the Christian did not come forward to claim him as a Christian even though he had declared that he was a continuation of the line of prophets and the last prophets. * 

From the foregoing, we understand that Guru Nanak was not a prophet of God, but a religious reformer of his times.


*You are indeed a scholar Sir. I salute you ;-) * 


*By the way who many prophets does Islam declare? 12,000 sopmething. Pity that God wanted to send 12,000 prophets in the brief time that civilisation had just started, but therafter he was silence. 

What was the big deal about Mohammed. What he had said about Oneness of God was already known to Jews and Christians.... 

Can you give me the names of at least 100 of these Prophets...please....pretty pleaseeeeeeeeeeeee.......


Akal Sahai ** 

Babbar Sher*


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## The lion king (Jul 12, 2004)

Excellent reply babbsher veer


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## BabbarSher (Jul 14, 2004)

Thanks Veere. 

Wonder where Jinni has gone....perhaps back to his lamp...     

Akal Sahai 
BabbarSher


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## Neutral Singh (Jul 24, 2004)

> Perhaps more than any Prophet in history Nanak's coming on Earth was predicted profusely with uncanny accuracy as recorded in some detail below. This has resulted after long and arduous research into the ancient doctrines many dating thousands of years before his actual birth. These are numerically listed below for ease of reference, not necessarily in chronological order. The Vedas and Puranas in which these direct references have been found recorded, are known to be amongst the oldest chronicles in the world. These references are as under:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/SearchView/0EB031B72A7052BF87256D370052810D?OpenDocument


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## Arvind (Jul 24, 2004)

Guru Nanak was a Guru, who showed us the way to Ik Ong Kaar


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## truth_seeker (Jul 24, 2004)

> The word NANAK is a combination of two sanskrit terms. 'Na" and 'Anak'. The meaning attached to these words is "Not-but-One". The message conveyed by the Guru's name and the education imparted by him through the Sacred Scriptual verses, usually commence with the words "Ik Oengkar". This phrase too means Non-but-One. One God only.



Like the islamic kalima: La Ilaha Illallah, No God but God.
Seal of the Prophets can also mean a certain line , like the abrahamic line of prophecy. Seal does not even mean "last".


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## muslim (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

*Ok i will now answer all of your questions, inshallah.*

Firstly Hazrat Mohammed said himslef that he was the last Prophet. What is the proof that he was the last prophet apart from this.?

*Ok firstly everything in this life has a begining and an end, the prophet Adam the first prophet and Mohammad the last. Each of the prophets before Mohammad were sent to their own nations or tribes, so a prophet would have been sent to the four corners of the earth conveying the same message. Now although the name of this religion conveyed by the prophet at the time may not have been islam they would be the same fundamental religion. Now when the prophet mohammad came as a prophet he was different to all the the previous as he came to not only to the people of arabia but of the world.

*
Guru Nanak Dev Ji was much more than a Prophet. 

The defination of Prophet as per Islam is a 'warner' not a guide..Prophets just warn, or prophesise, they dont guide. 

Guru Nanak Dev Ji had the Jot of Waheguru, and hence was one with God. He was NOT warned like the Prophet of doom, nor was God ever angry with him. 

He was chosen to guide people on the way of Naam, the religion of God. 

*When the prophet Mohammad came he came with a warning and guidance for mankind he also prophesised. Muslims use the quran and sunnah for guidance.The prophet of doom? and god was angry? come again.*

Hee hee. I have already answered your question above and I think in the light of the above the remaining questions are invalid. 

The Gurus of the sikhs were not mere Prophet, who were subject to judgement, rather they were Masters for the sikhs who had the Jot of God. 

Now to address your questions with logic of the likeness you have used ;-) 

*Masters? isnt god the only master of the universe? lol *

It was rather clever of the Prophet to decalre himslef the last prophet. By that he wanted to make Islam the most popular religion. In fact not only did he say he was the last prophet, suring the latter period of his life he even negated the folowings of the earlier prophets. 

*Huh? he negated the followings of the earlier prophets? oh so we only follow the ten commandments sent to moses in the old testament, follow the psalms of david and pray like jesus,yusuf etc, yeah i guess you could call that negating them.*

For if the followings of the early prophets were also true, then there would be no need for the last prophet - Prophet Mohammed to be on this earth and give his own teachings. 

The biggest teaching that muslims claim is of Tawheed or the oneness of God. This is not something unique, is it. The Jews knew about this before the pagans of Arabia knew. 

In facte I would suggest that you give up claims to Israel and let them libve in peace as the Jews are th original people to know about Tawheed. They are the original Momins 

*Yes all the following prophets were correct in message and true. Mohammad was sent as the seal the last one to give revelation not just for a tribe but to the whole of mankind till the day of judgement. You are correct in saying that the jews knew of the oneness of god before the arab pagans, but is it or is it not true that they rejected a prophet of god? Jesus. When he came as a prophet with the gospel.*


Yes. Guru Granth Sahib has got hymns which clearly convey the message that this is the message of God. 

In fact it turns out thatwhile Guru Granth Sahib has no inconsistencies in concept, the Quran is full of big blunders. 

Not only does it deviate from the spirtual aspct of life, it also breeds hate and violence among the various people. 

The lesser said about the Quaranic inconsistencies, the better..but If you want I would be glad to reproduce for you tracts.....which have been translated by muslim authors themselves.  

*What proof shows us that the guru granth sahib is  the message of god. So what big blunders does the quran have please let me know. Oh so how come the quran is the only book that hasnt been changed. It doesnt deviate from the spritual aspect of life, if so how? and where does it premote violence.*

Like I said, just say it and they will be reproduced on this very Forum*.* 

*Please do.*

Yes. Because unlike narrow minded biased Islamic relgion, Sikhism belives that anyone can achieve God. Those who achieved God, only their compositions are included in Guru Granth Sahib. 

The touchstone used to test was the Baani which the Gurus thmselves received from 'Dhur'. The touchstone prooved that the Baani of the Bhagats was Ilaahi Baani indeed. 

Please note that Gurbaani is all about God, NOT about some piddly myths - which wont even stand the test of time and histroy. 

Gurbani is about truth, NOT about false 

Gurbani is about Love, not about hating ur fellow beings 

Gurbani is about Naam, and focusses ion worship of One True God, NOT some prophet. 

*Oh so thats why your ridiculing a prophet of another religion, which your religion say by following him we can reach god. Lol since when did you become an islamic scholar, the quran teaches us about life and the correct path to god.


*You dont even understand the basic principles of sikhism. Suggest that you go and study some books. 

The Jot which permeated in Guru Nanak moved from him to the rest of the Gurus. The 'moorat' - physical body was different byt the concepts and the Jot was the same. 

The iron was readied by Guru Nanak Dev J, The steel was made and forged into the steel by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The transformation from a piddly human beings were converted into the complete saint 
soldier - the Khalsa. 

*Huh? what are you on about?*

Because everyone wants to own an enlightened person. ;-) 

Wonder why the Jews did not come forward to claim prophet Mohammed as a jew and the Christian did not come forward to claim him as a Christian even though he had declared that he was a continuation of the line of prophets and the last prophets. 

*Again you dont know what your talking about, yes the jews did not except him but they didnt even except jesus. If you read the torah you will see that moses speaks of the prophet mohammad. He cannot be classified as a chrsitian as the prophet did not agree with new ideas in christianity eg the trinity. Oh and jesus spoke of the prophet mohammad.*


You are indeed a scholar Sir. I salute you ;-)

*And so are you.*

By the way who many prophets does Islam declare? 12,000 sopmething. Pity that God wanted to send 12,000 prophets in the brief time that civilisation had just started, but therafter he was silence. 

What was the big deal about Mohammed. What he had said about Oneness of God was already known to Jews and Christians.... 

Can you give me the names of at least 100 of these Prophets...please....pretty pleaseeeeeeeeeeeee.......

*Huh? oh i forgot here goes mr scholar. Lol silence of god man look at your own reliigon, relevilation only came 600yrs ago lol whats happend to those before sikhism. Big deal about him is he is the seal, bringing revelation to the world. Christians and jews have lost their religion as the sikhs claim muslims and hindus have. The names of prophets are as follows*

Qur'anic Name​Biblical Name​Adam​Adam​Idris​Enoch​Nuh​Noah​Hud​-----​Salih​Salih​Ibrahim​Abraham​Isma'il​Ishmael​Ishaq​Isaac​Lut​Lot​Ya'qub​Jacob​Yusuf​Joseph​Shu'aib​-----​Ayyub​Job​Musa​Moses​Harun​Aaron​Dhu'l-kifl​Ezekiel​Dawud​David​Sulaiman​Solomon​Ilias​Elias​Al-Yasa​Elisha​Yunus​Jonah​Zakariyya​Zechariah​Yahya​John​'Isa​Jesus​Muhammad​-----​

*Not quiet a hundred but the quran is not a book of names.*


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Ek Oankar Akal Sahai

there comes a point from Das.

As per Vachitar Natak,Tenth Guru says so far who so ever came give his name and worship of God Allah was becoming secondary so did God sent him .He said that his Faith will only have the name of God and not of humans.

So Muslims fights with jews or Christians based upon the name of there prophets,But Sikhs have no prophet but God so no fight with anyone till some one offends God.

Dear rember this thing,Sikhs in genral,Khalsa,Pure one,who worship purlyGod,With no adultratiuon of Guru,Prophet or incarnation(Avtar) is himself/herself enjoys the position of a Prophet.

Khalsa does not need heavon or hell as both are created by Allah and can be destroyed when Allah want.So is the human soul.Only Allah Akal,Mahakal will remain.So why thing others.Rasool,Jesus,Guru Nanakdev Ji,Ramchandra all were born and with time left the earth.There body contained physical matterial,whcih can be destroyed.But God can never be made or destroyed.

If some one says that Allah was bounded by some book say holy Kuran and Rasol was the last prophet then we are trying to bind overpowerfull Allah.If Allah want Billions of more powerfull Rasools then Muhamud can be creted in second by Allah.

It is only by mercy of that same powerfull Allah that Allah created such Prophets,The form of Tenth Nanak ,they arte called Khalsa.Who is salvaged and capable to salvage others.

No true Khalsa does worship Guru but does a worship of following Gurubani.
Prophet is one who does forecastes or prophesis.That person is false if forcastes are false.But there were many things which Gurus did say or even many true Khalsas of this age say and they come true.As far as Sikhism such miracles or Prophesis are banned.Yet often as the Khalsa is not under the control of Self but of God. So does God Akal make them to do such things.

Das did read sau Sakhi a record of saying of tenth master.Das can show an old edition(ten year befroe),Which stated that a Sikh will rule from Delhi.it is true today.there are many such things.

By mercy of Akal das want to tell that Gurus told about british ruling India in future even when King like Auranzeb or Bahdur Shah 1st were ruling.

May be some people can say that it could be interpolated at later date say after the conquest of India by Britishers.

So Das is telling another forecast made by Guru,About Sikhs taking over Medina and Mecca(as they are only ture Muslims left).By mercy of Akal das is telling this to let reactionary try to prevent them.More there is an opposition to Khalsa more do Akal strenthen them.Just see in future how this prophecy is realised and that will be proof more then sufficent about the power of Allah.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Guru Nanak as the remaining nine Sikh Gurus NEVER claimed to be "prophets" and were NOT Prophets...in the same way as the Jewish/Christian/Muslim prophets.

The SIKH GURUS were GURUS -TEACHERS...of the PATH to GOD.....and the GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE is the SHABAD GURU...the WORD that has existed from Time Immemeorial as with GOD.

The GURU GRANTH JI doesnt contain any "prophecies", "miracles" stories and tales about men and so called "prophets", cheating and lying, murdering and stealing, burning and destroying, pillaging and genocide...ALL GURU GRANTH contains are LOVE for GOD...The WAY to GOD..the PERFECT human being and How he loves GOD...and GURU GRANTH doesnt Limit itself to JUST "MY OWN"... this is as UNIVERSAL as GOD HIMSELF.... IF GOD is for all mankind..and all mankind are brothers... then GURU GRANTH is the UNIVERSAL PATH that teaches this Brotherhood of man...an GIVES place of HONOUIR to Hindus, Muslims, others who reached the Path to GOD in their OWN WAY.

Prphets that keep coming and coming is in it self a positive PROOF that the earlier "prophet" FAILED in his Task and God had to send another..after having seen this mohd(pbuh) decided to end all this and declare himself the LAST..just as Jesus had declared Himself the SON of GOD.

GOD is PERFECT and His Prophet should be PERFECT....if another had to come then this so called Prophet is not perfect..

Whatever is in the Bible is also in the ancient Babylonian pagan writings...SAME STORIES and miracles etc...and the Koran took all this wholesale and imported it...so it cant be revealed because it already EXISTS earlier.

However the GURBANI is ORIGINAL...written as it is revelaed and only ONCE..and most importantly written down by its authors.... the comment by some that Guur Arjun Ji wrote Guru nanak Ji's bani is wrong...GURU NANAK  Ji and GURU ANGAD Ji and GURU Amardass Ji and Guru ramdass Ji WROTE their own GURBANI...Guur Angad Ji just compiled it all into ONE Place - the GRANTH JI. Later on guru Teg bahadur Ji's bani was written down by Guru Gobind Singh ji.

SIKHI is ORIGINAL...and One of its KIND....NO copies exist.

jarnail Singh


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## BabbarSher (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Ok firstly everything in this life has a begining and an end, the prophet Adam the first prophet and Mohammad the last. Each of the prophets before Mohammad were sent to their own nations or tribes, so a prophet would have been sent to the four corners of the earth conveying the same message. Now although the name of this religion conveyed by the prophet at the time may not have been islam they would be the same fundamental religion. Now when the prophet mohammad came as a prophet he was different to all the the previous as he came to not only to the people of arabia but of the world.


>>>>looooooooool... whats the meaning of this gibberish.... I asked you for proof not for statements. The Prophet came to all the people in the world, wonder where you got that from ....ummm let me take a guess ... Quran .. 


When the prophet Mohammad came he came with a warning and guidance for mankind he also prophesised. Muslims use the quran and sunnah for guidance.The prophet of doom? and god was angry? come again.

>>>> well your own standard the Quran says that Prophets are onyl Warners and only God is the guide... hmmmm seems to be contradicting what you are saying. Anyway whats this whole warning stuff.. ok let me guess.. God makes people, but then gets angry and jealous because they worship someone else.. is that what the warning is about..(what a concept of God..who is omniprsentand omnipowerful......please take a break......he is not jealous and angry at anyone) ...... or maybe we can add worship of the prophet who gave the warning, above God..... mebbe that even if u accept God id one, u aint going to heaven, but wowo..just accept that Prophet Mohammed is his prophet.. and off you go to non-stop trip to heaven .. lol 

Masters? isnt god the only master of the universe? lol 


>>>>>>Yes God is the only Master of the Universe... Are you such a novice to not understand the context of the usage of the word .. Master here means teacher... translation for Guru... ...r u really from UK?  Nothing to looool about .. 

Huh? he negated the followings of the earlier prophets? oh so we only follow the ten commandments sent to moses in the old testament, follow the psalms of david and pray like jesus,yusuf etc, yeah i guess you could call that negating them.

>>>>>>Well .. I am not able to make head or tail of what you are saying in this statement. Are you implying that you FOLLOW or you DO NOT follow .. please be clear .. and also whats the point .. 

Yes all the following prophets were correct in message and true. Mohammad was sent as the seal the last one to give revelation not just for a tribe but to the whole of mankind till the day of judgement. You are correct in saying that the jews knew of the oneness of god before the arab pagans, but is it or is it not true that they rejected a prophet of god? Jesus. When he came as a prophet with the gospel.

>>>>>>So.. they already had a prophet .. what was the need of asecond prophet.. isnt it that one people are only sent prophet as per you .. or can there be multiple of prophets ... ??


What proof shows us that the guru granth sahib is the message of god. So what big blunders does the quran have please let me know. Oh so how come the quran is the only book that hasnt been changed. It doesnt deviate from the spritual aspect of life, if so how? and where does it premote violence. 


>>>>>>You have asked for proofs.. and I will definately provide them. I will also provide the proof from transaltions done by radical muslims scholars and will leave it to you to decide... Websites have been filled by all this.

As far as Guru Granth Sahib is concerned.. one has to read it to know thats its Baani is divine.. thats enough for me.. I dont want to convert other people... just want to defend my religion and my beliefs... when one eyed muslims come running to convert sikhs ... loooool.. 

Have said it earlier to idiots like Jinni .. leave us alone. leave our women alone .. we dont need you are your religion, but they dont understand .. 

and when all else fails.. sikhs do know how to respond ..and response you will get from us.. 

Again you dont know what your talking about, yes the jews did not except him but they didnt even except jesus. If you read the torah you will see that moses speaks of the prophet mohammad. He cannot be classified as a chrsitian as the prophet did not agree with new ideas in christianity eg the trinity. Oh and jesus spoke of the prophet mohammad.

>>>> grow up... its not written in old testament or the new one about Prophet Mohammed.. the Christians and Jews both deny it. You are only feeding upon what radical islamic scholars feed you.. thats the whole issue with you guys,, me, my religiois best..others are stupid.. they cant be good.. they are mislead.. 



>>>>>>Huh? oh i forgot here goes mr scholar. Lol silence of god man look at your own reliigon, relevilation only came 600yrs ago lol whats happend to those before sikhism. 

>>>>>>> loooool...man u r a piece of art. 

600 years ago, Guru Nanak recognised the will of God, his Hukam and presented his religion. People before Guru Nanak --- also reognised will of God and attained him... many of the Bhagats lived before his age... 

Guru Nanak brought out the truth as ordained by God, from the starting of time, while the rest of the world, just indulged in pettey rituals... 

>>>>> I am not good at maths,,, but i dont think that totals up to even a fifty ... hmmmm Howzaaat and many of these Prophets dont even have a historical identitity. loooooooooool 

>>>>>Yes. thanks for reminding us .. Quran is not a book of names... thats why it is conveninet to make unsupported statements.. 

>>>>>Man.. you guys are off the rack... i heard some Naik guy speaking on TV.. is he laughable... where is the workshop where they fill u with such stuff.. 


 :whisling:


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh
Well first of All das want to elaborate one thing over here.That is ,that das also is not supporting any sort of Prophesisis and main aim of Das was to just bring that main essence of Sikhism ie to put full stop on  prophet oriented religeon.

As prophets are human and no man is perfect so following Prophets or say keeping one name as Muhamud is not Good till God is not worshipped.Anyone who is one with God is rather above prophet.Thing to remember that prophets were created by God to serve universe,That made them great.Anyone who serves universe will become great by mercy of God.

Now coming on Miracle or forecasts in Adi Guru Darbar.

Das is only giveng some hints.

Baberbani(about SherShah Suri's replacing Mughuls in future)

And Bhagat Namdevs making temple to rotate.He tells God that if God did not show miracle then God's greatness may not be shown to the world around,Even if Bhagat Namdev did get salvation after his death.


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## muslim (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

>>>>looooooooool... whats the meaning of this gibberish.... I asked you for proof not for statements. The Prophet came to all the people in the world, wonder where you got that from ....ummm let me take a guess ... Quran .. 

*lol so where do you get your information? or do you just make it up as you go along? lol so whats the guru granth sahib to you? just a book? dont you ever read it and seek guidance from it, maybe thats a bit far fetched as its only your eternal guru for guidance.*

>>>> well your own standard the Quran says that Prophets are onyl Warners and only God is the guide... hmmmm seems to be contradicting what you are saying. Anyway whats this whole warning stuff.. ok let me guess.. God makes people, but then gets angry and jealous because they worship someone else.. is that what the warning is about..(what a concept of God..who is omniprsentand omnipowerful......please take a break......he is not jealous and angry at anyone) ...... or maybe we can add worship of the prophet who gave the warning, above God..... mebbe that even if u accept God id one, u aint going to heaven, but wowo..just accept that Prophet Mohammed is his prophet.. and off you go to non-stop trip to heaven .. lol 

*Yea they warn you from the incorrect and show the correct. Yes all guidance is from allah and he gives this guidance to the people through the prophets. lol your a real joke you know that, no god does not get jealous but he does not like those who do not obey him. hmm once again your hate towards islam is comming out yaaawn. And what do sikhs believe? we die and are reencarnated into a low or higher state of being. So what when i die i become a fly? ok fair enough but how do i become a good fly to move up. So if in each and every life im bad what do i keep getting reencarnated? does this mean that this life will never end of there is always people being bad? We know thats not tru as the world will end when the suns time is up in millions of years.*

>>>>>>Well .. I am not able to make head or tail of what you are saying in this statement. Are you implying that you FOLLOW or you DO NOT follow .. please be clear .. and also whats the point .. 

*Are you brain dead? duh muslims follow them.*

>>>>>>So.. they already had a prophet .. what was the need of asecond prophet.. isnt it that one people are only sent prophet as per you .. or can there be multiple of prophets ... ??

*Umm Jesus didnt come to the people of Arabia duuuuh.*

As far as Guru Granth Sahib is concerned.. one has to read it to know thats its Baani is divine.. thats enough for me.. I dont want to convert other people... just want to defend my religion and my beliefs... when one eyed muslims come running to convert sikhs ... loooool.. 

*Yea thats why the language of gurumuki has vanished, and so you can never fully appreciates its beauty."i want facts not statements". So if your religion is the true religion why are you so selfish in not wanting to share its beauty and wisdom, doesnt everyone desreve the right to follows god path. Lol you dont convert people because no one wants to. WHY DO PEOPLE CONVERT TO ISLAM IF ITS SO WRONG? *

Have said it earlier to idiots like Jinni .. leave us alone. leave our women alone .. we dont need you are your religion, but they dont understand .. 

and when all else fails.. sikhs do know how to respond ..and response you will get from us.. 

*AWWW all your women are reverting back to islam? what a shame. Lol umm i thought all religions are equal and can attain a path to god? so why does it matter if anyone is a sikh or muslim?*

>>>> grow up... its not written in old testament or the new one about Prophet Mohammed.. the Christians and Jews both deny it. You are only feeding upon what radical islamic scholars feed you.. thats the whole issue with you guys,, me, my religiois best..others are stupid.. they cant be good.. they are mislead..

*Ok so if if isnt written then why do they revert? Lol thats all you guys can pull out, radical muslim scholars lol. No islam is the same religion of moses and jesus.*

600 years ago, Guru Nanak recognised the will of God, his Hukam and presented his religion. People before Guru Nanak --- also reognised will of God and attained him... many of the Bhagats lived before his age... 

Guru Nanak brought out the truth as ordained by God, from the starting of time, while the rest of the world, just indulged in pettey rituals... 

*Lol so Guru Nanak is the only one who shared his religion with his peopl and the others who also recognised this will of god thought hmmm should i tell the people or not...nahh. Huh? guru nanak brought the truth from the beginning of time?*

*I look forward to the day Islam is the worlds biggest religion and Sikhism dies out, cos face it man like you said your women are embracing islam and leaving sikhi, people are loosing their 5k's and no one really attends your guduwaras.*


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## Arvind (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Dear Muslim,

I wonder what your school is teaching you - Spread Hatred! Is it?

Regards.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*



			
				muslim said:
			
		

> *no god does not get jealous but he does not like those who do not obey him. *


*Sikhs do not believe in such a God who hates, has ego and dislikes. GOD is beyond hate, dislike and such attitudes in Sikhism.
Sidenote: I do not know much about the OLD TESTAMENT but it is written in the NEW TESTAMENT that GOD IS JEALOUS.
* 


			
				muslim said:
			
		

> *And what do sikhs believe? we die and are reencarnated into a low or higher state of being. So what when i die i become a fly? ok fair enough but how do i become a good fly to move up. So if in each and every life im bad what do i keep getting reencarnated? does this mean that this life will never end of there is always people being bad? We know thats not tru as the world will end when the suns time is up in millions of years.*


In Sikhism GOD is free from hate - he gives an endless amount of lives to try and merge with him. An Amritdhari Sikh who has followed Sikhism properly will be freed from the cycle of reincarnation and merge with GOD. What you are reborn has depends on how bad you are in this life - only GOD knows what exact actions add up to each level of being in the next life.



			
				muslim said:
			
		

> *Umm Jesus didnt come to the people of Arabia duuuuh.*


Since this is a SIKH forum, there will be a lot of people here with less knowledge on Islam than you. So please refrain from saying things like "duuuuh" implying that others are dumb. NO HUMAN can be all knowing. We are all here to learn, do not insult the disability of another.



			
				muslim said:
			
		

> *Yea thats why the language of gurumuki has vanished, and so you can never fully appreciates its beauty."i want facts not statements". So if your religion is the true religion why are you so selfish in not wanting to share its beauty and wisdom, doesnt everyone desreve the right to follows god path. Lol you dont convert people because no one wants to. *


Gurumukhi has vanished? Is that why in majority of Gurdwaras GURUJI is in Gurumukhi?
Sikhism DOES NOT claim to be the true religion. In Sikhism there is NO SUCH THING. All religions are considered paths to GOD.



			
				muslim said:
			
		

> *WHY DO PEOPLE CONVERT TO ISLAM IF ITS SO WRONG? *


Why do people rape if it is so wrong? Drugs? Drink? Why did the holocaust happen if it is so wrong? Yet again this is not a good argument for saying something is good.



			
				muslim said:
			
		

> *AWWW all your women are reverting back to islam? what a shame. Lol umm i thought all religions are equal and can attain a path to god? so why does it matter if anyone is a sikh or muslim?*


It matters because they often convert under false pretenses and lured into Islam. It matters because they are often brainwashed into Islam by some guy who says he loves her because he knows paradise is promised to him if he converts her.




			
				muslim said:
			
		

> *I look forward to the day Islam is the worlds biggest religion and Sikhism dies out, cos face it man like you said your women are embracing islam and leaving sikhi, people are loosing their 5k's and no one really attends your guduwaras.*



I look forward to the day that Muslims become more open to the world around them... the 12th of never is the date I predict.


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## Neutral Singh (Jan 28, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*



> I look forward to the day Islam is the worlds biggest religion and Sikhism dies out



Hi dear muslim, ok then what happens next ?


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## BabbarSher (Jan 28, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

*When Logic fails, resort to statements in RED of a much larger font. - instructions for a typical muslim ;-) *


lol so where do you get your information? or do you just make it up as you go along? lol so whats the guru granth sahib to you? just a book? dont you ever read it and seek guidance from it, maybe thats a bit far fetched as its only your eternal guru for guidance.

>>>>>>U keep loling.....wonder whats so funny..or is it your lack of intellect - that prompts you to lol, so you can skip out on the arguments (actually its quite obvious ..that u lack intellect when you follow such a corrupted religion and have the cheek to defend it while decrying all others) 


Yea they warn you from the incorrect and show the correct. Yes all guidance is from allah and he gives this guidance to the people through the prophets.


>>>Sudden change of statements and then you turn the other way and call me a joke .. we'll let the forum members decide whose the joke .. 

 lol your a real joke you know that, no god does not get jealous but he does not like those who do not obey him. 

>>>> Caramel has already replied to you and yes its written both in the old and the new testament that God is jealous. So if you are a true muslim, you have just become a herectic by saying God is not jealous.   

OK so now God is not jealous, but he hates... thats a beautiful concept you have in your mind for God. 


hmm once again your hate towards islam is comming out yaaawn. And what do sikhs believe? we die and are reencarnated into a low or higher state of being. So what when i die i become a fly? ok fair enough but how do i become a good fly to move up. So if in each and every life im bad what do i keep getting reencarnated? does this mean that this life will never end of there is always people being bad? We know thats not tru as the world will end when the suns time is up in millions of years.

>>>>> Yes and thats your judgement day. What a poor concept. All those people who died in the beginning ..will have to wait for millions of years, while those who die just before the sun's time is up will be resurrected. lovely .. 

And anyway in about a million years, science would have moved to such a stage to inahabit other planets... 

>>>> Regarding your question of good fly bad fly..lets say .. look before you leap.. Fly and the other births are automatic evlolutions, you are not blamed for what you do in these births. It is a gradual evolution. 

>>>>But umm whl are we talkingto here - a stubborn muslim fanatic.. 

>>>> Are you brain dead? duh muslims follow them.

well if i keep listening to the stupidities you are pouring out I might as well be.. poor things who read your posts, what torture...they have to sustain

Are you a Dodo ?.. Hey mod I heard Dodos were extinct .. guess this Dodos time is also up... 

So you follow them but dont belive in their commandments, or do you .. do u belive God id jealous for e.g. ? Do you belive in Kosher and Sabbath .. ?

Is Jesus your saviour? 

Umm Jesus didnt come to the people of Arabia duuuuh.

>>> You should say Arabs, not people of Arabia ..duuuhhh .. do u want someone to expand on the rivalries of Arabs and Jews  and the background to that ... an why you hate Israelis so much .. 


Yea thats why the language of gurumuki has vanished, and so you can never fully appreciates its beauty."i want facts not statements". So if your religion is the true religion why are you so selfish in not wanting to share its beauty and wisdom, doesnt everyone desreve the right to follows god path. Lol you dont convert people because no one wants to. WHY DO PEOPLE CONVERT TO ISLAM IF ITS SO WRONG? 


>>>> Gurmukhi-----vanished .... (note to moderators .. where did u get this sample from .. timbuctoo ??) 

>>>> We are not selfish, we let people study and choose their own religion, but we are not fanatics forcing stupid religions down peopls throats. You should ask scores of people of various nationalities who have converted. 

People do not convert to Islam, muslims convert them by hook and crook, cause thats muslims policy and mandate... 

You should take a look at the bloody history of Islam's expansion 

Just get your Mullahs to proclaim that any muslim can convert to any religion, and no action (read death penalty ) will be imposed against him and especially HER and see how the face of muslim countries changes


AWWW all your women are reverting back to islam? what a shame. 

>>>>They are not reverting back, crooks like you use crooked methods and forcible conversion to TRY and convert THEM .....what a shame on Islams name .. what a truthful religion and what atruthful follower

Lol umm i thought all religions are equal and can attain a path to god? so why does it matter if anyone is a sikh or muslim?

>>>>All religions that are not crooked and corrupted.. Do u write on this forum without spectacles and miss out reading some lines??? 

I  look forward to the day Islam is the worlds biggest religion and Sikhism dies out, cos face it man like you said your women are embracing islam and leaving sikhi, people are loosing their 5k's and no one really attends your guduwaras.

>>>>>>>>I never said they are converting, idiots like TRY AND CONVERT THEM. Sikh women are honest and sentimental and thats what you crooks have been making use of.... getting closer in garbs of friendship and then using mean tricks. 

They have anyway woken up to your tricks.. 

You should look inside your own homes, arab women have sex with Indian taxi drivers..while the arabs away ....loooooooooooooooool ..... or paki women, saying prayers and then going out to discoies and enjoying drinks.. eh, or lebanani women .. or for that matter scores of others.

If you live in glass houses, dont throw stones at people outside....

Our ancestors busted the {censored} of muslims like you... and our women gave up their lives and never embraced Islam. We are gonna do the same to you....

Sikhi Forever  








 :shy:


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## muslim (Jan 28, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Its seems that this arguement is going nowhere. You have your ideas about islam and so do i, neither of us is going to change so whats the point.Sikhi forever, nice thought to bad its not reality.


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## lion (Jan 28, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*



			
				Aman Singh said:
			
		

> Hi dear muslim, ok then what happens next ?



Singh ji,then world will be going back just 1000's of years....(from where islam has  started).......


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## CaramelChocolate (Jan 28, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

You obviously thought that you could change our minds otherwise you wouldn't have been trying to sell Islam. Face it: NON-Muslims can have deep, strong, unswerving faith also.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 28, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Muslim,

Whats does Prophet called in Arabic?

What IS a prophet according to Islam?

How does one become a prophet in Islam?

What are the duties and responsibilities of the prophet in Islam?

Is Prophet allowed to marry a 7 yr old girl as Mohammed allegedly did?



Once we understand the  true meaning of prophet according to Islam, then we can discuss about Guru Nanak and why he refused to call himself anything but a mere mortal.

Tejwant.


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## BabbarSher (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

The point is that you just cant come around and start babbling whatever you want to.. 

If you criticise othre religions on false pretexts, be ready to listen to criticism based on facts abuut your lovely religion. 

Anyway, quite some time back, I used to do a lot of reserach on Islam by reading books and trying to find out what it truly stands for. I wrote quite a bit, but then thought whats the point in criticising......but u know what, you have just set a chain in motion and now you will find a lot of posts supported by quotes from Quran and Hadith. Dont run away from this forum and answer them. 

And please, just like you muslims make D'aawah to proove trueness of islam and falsenes of other religions, have the guts to say that if we proove that Islam is full of falacies, you would be ready to convert to any other religion.......or are u afraid your beloved Mullah ji will pass a fatwa againts you and you may find fanatics running after you. 

On a different note, guys, if you wanna laugh, there is a new comedy program on QTV -by  Zakir Naik .,,,and Indian Muslims where he takes the questions from muslims and non-muslims and answers them. Some samples from yesterdays program: 

Q1: Muslims look down upon non-muslims and call them Kaafir in a derogatory manner....where is the muslim brotherhood and tolerance in this. 

The honourable crook, Mr. Naik elaborated upon the root of the word Kufr and  said that the root of this word in arabic means 'nonbeliever' Fair enough, but what the venerable person did not say what this nonbelief was - was it no belief in God or non belief in the Prophet.. ? He took an easier turn here and said it meant non-belief in islam, and if one doesnt like being called Kaafir he should convert to Islam .. and started smirking and laughing

wow, what a solution and thought process. Rather than addressing the question as to why muslims look at all non mulsims in a derogatory manner and call them Kaafir, he acts like one 

Q2: Why do muslims object when a muslim girl marries a non-muslim boy and where is the concept of muslim brother hood in this 

Dear Naik changed the language of question by restating it as follows: a muslim person marriage to a non-muslim person (boy and girl replaced by person) .. 

He totally evaded the question.. 

and then elaborated upon a car tyre and a truck tyre analogy.. what he forgot was thet religions could easily be changed and just as a non-muslim can become a muslim, it should be possible under the concept of Universal brotherhood that he was so much elaborating upon, a muslim to become a non-muslim... 

The hypocrisy and sadist tendencies of muslim world particularly arab are further highlighted by thr amount of aid they are promising or giving to Tsunami victims... they can spend millions and billions for supplying arms to terror groups ..but not for supplying food to poor and starving people. 

shame shame shame ..


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*



			
				muslim said:
			
		

> >>>>
> ..
> 
> 
> *I look forward to the day Islam is the worlds biggest religion and Sikhism dies out, cos face it man like you said your women are embracing islam and leaving sikhi, people are loosing their 5k's and no one really attends your guduwaras.*


EXACT WORDS of AURENGZEB to Guru Teg Bahadur when he wanted to "forvibly convert everyone to islam through  the SWORD...GURU JI replied" Aurenga..you want to make ONE religion..MY SIKHS will Make THREE..and Where is AURENGZEB "the GREAT" now ?? Ever visited His GRAVE ?? Apart from a few Muslim BEGGARS sitting on it begging passers by for alms...no body....ever Visited HAZOOR SAHIB....in memeory of GURU GOBIND SINGH...MILLIONS of people visit and Millions of Charrawa/Golak is MATHA TEK by those SIKHS that AURENGZEB wanted dead and gone...

You people are all Fake and Hypocrites...just see how you all MUSLIMS help the Muslim nation of INDONESIA whose hundreds of thousands were washed away in a tsunami.... the MISERABLE help by MUSLIM NATIONS...claim to be "richest" NATIONS OIL RICH ETC...GAVE nothing IN COMAPRISON TO usa/europe.... ETC  AND EVEN THE sikhs HAVE SUCH A BIG PRESENCE IN THE aid movement IN ACHEH......A FEW THOUSAND SIKHS CAN SEND TEAMS OF VOLUNTEERS..but the  MUSLIM Millions, "biggest religion in the world" cant spare a few pounds/dollars ??? not a single OIC leader came to Acheh ?? Singapore a chinese country collected MORE than many many muslim nations...  so typical of the Beggars on the Grave of Aurengzeb .. Stop DREAMING.

This is a MATURE FORUM...if you behave mature...we are all mature....if anyone tries to be childish...we know how to respond in kind.:u): 

jarnail singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*



			
				Aman Singh said:
			
		

> Hi dear muslim, ok then what happens next ?


This is what happens even when Islam is NOT the biggest religion..

TWO reports from a "muslim country" that is Liberal (islamic style) and leader of the OIC....even here we have trouble with the "muslim radicals like mulsim/jinni etc..

see attached files which are newspaper reports from malaysia's Largest Newspaper.

Even Muslims are questioning what "muslim" and Jinn are preaching.


jarnail singh


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## Neutral Singh (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Gyani Ji, this is really a depressing development, at the one hand they are hell bent on converting all kafirs to islam but this is how they treat their fellow muslims... not even a word of compassion ?? 

i feel that introspection has initiated in minds of true muslims also otherwise i am really surprised to read this from the keyboard of a muslim scholar... 

Thanks for sharing the important piece of information.

Regards


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Yesterday 29th january, we had on malaysian National TV NTV7 Network a special One Hour Programme which highlighted the tremendous HUMANITARIAN MISSION led by the GLOBAL SIKHS- WAVES OF MERCY to Acheh.  There were Doctors, tons of Medicines and over 30 tons of Food with this Mission of SIKHS..many of them YOUNGSTERS from MALAYSIA led by the Sikh naujawan Sabha SNSM who spent  two weeks in the most devastated area of Acheh where every single house and building was wiped out..and many children were made orphans. IT was HEARTWARMING....and the REPORTER/PRESENTER himself was TEARY EYED when showing how the Locals (ALL MUSLIMS) greeted these SIKHS coming to them with FOOD ( after weeks without any food), mineral water, medicines, tents clothes..a GENUINE HUMANITARIAN effort proving Sikhism's message of Brotherhood of man is alive and well.

A SECOND TEAM of Global Sikhs waves of Mercy has left for Acheh while the first has retrned to rest and recuperate.

This is all in the Hukm of Waheguru....as long as His Will Prevails.. SIKHI will Survive adn there will be HOPE for the World to live in Peace.  ONE RELIGION for ALL is  a pipe dream and will remain just that.


Jarnail Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 30, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

In this attached message the President of the Malaysian Consultative Council of Non Muslim Religions Malaysia speaks to the Local Press on Problems that face the Non-Muslims. The Malaysian Federal Constitution GUARANTEES the Freedom of Religion....But slowly and surely these "freeeodms" are being hijacked....and eroded..

*NOTE: The MESSAGE immediately BELOW this one is actually the TITLE PAGE. Please READ that message First and then continue  (where it says Contd. on PAGE 10..)  .from the beginning of THIS ONE. Sorry for the Mix up.*

Open the Attachment for the Beginning of this article published in the SUN daily today 29th january 2005..in the Message taht follows this one.
The remainder text is below:

V. HARCHARAN SINGH President of the Malaysian Consultative Coun cil on Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and SIkhism...speaks to the Malaysian Press on Religious "tolerance" in MALAYSIAN CONTEXT..
read on:...

Page 10.  Continued from previous message..

*We are not happy about the word `tolerance', because tolerance is only temporary and negative. You tolerate for some time... but you are not desiring it and do not want it. What we really need is religious under- standing and*





Attitudes and condemning others. We have seen actual cases where this kind of raids have produced very negative attitudes among the very people whom they are trying to correct and those people who think themselves self-righteous and appoint themselves the guardians of people's morals have also been involved in these kinds of things. 

This is a human problem. The Council is against this. Whatever education is to be given on this, should be given in the schools, the madrasah, the temples and the mosques. If there is any infringement of any laws, the police are there. 

This is our view. No religious organisation should take it upon itself to go and spy on people's behaviour. This is actually condemned in every religion. You do not go looking for the faults of others. If they are being immoral, they will suffer. If they are doing something illegal, the police and the proper authorities are there. 

Like what was reported in the Malay Mail the other day, how the youths were rounded up. If only you ask their feelings and their parents' feelings... the whole country feels bad about it. And it creates not only problems for the people involved, but also for society and for the government. But do the authorities listen to organisations like the MCCBCHS? When our Council speaks, it speaks with the authority and backing of many religions and people. They definitely do listen, but whether they actually implement what we suggest, that we are unable to monitor. 

When we have issues, we speak fearlessly on them, and we highlight whatever problems -- religious or social or even political sometimes. Definitely, the government listens to us. We are represented on the National Unity Panel. We definitely do carry weight, but to what extent their implementation... that is something we are not so sure of. There has been much debate about this question, but it has to be asked. Is Malaysia an Islamic state? If it is, does it not violate the social contract enshrined in the Federal Constitution? *The MCCBCHS's view is that Malaysia is NOT an Islamic state. Article 3 of the Federal Constitution states that `Islam is the religion of the Federation but other religions may be practised in peace and harmony in any part of the Federation.' That's all. So from that simple assertion, the wrong interpretation has been placed, that Malaysia is an Islamic country. It is neither in law nor in form an Islamic country. *

*At the time the social contract was agreed upon, the population was almost 50:50, Muslim and non-Muslim. Since then, the ratio has been shifting. Just because the ratio is now 60% Muslim and 40% non-Muslim, this cannot automatically go against the provision agreed to by all parties in the Constitution*. 

Everybody has been deriving power from the Constitution, whether [it is] the federal or state governments or even NGOs. Article 11 of the Federal Constitution guarantees the right of every individual to profess and practise the religion of their choice. Religious freedom is in the Constitution. So, any violation of the actual agreement, that will not be for the longterm good of the country. 

Malaysia has been promoting itself as a moderate Islamic nation throughout the world... The current Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi has said that he is the PM of ALL Malaysians, Muslims and nonMuslims. And the authority of the government is derived from the Constitution, from the social contract, which says freedom of religion. And their [treatment of] others' religions must be also fair and just. The Council has taken note of this, and we have been trying to make our people understand that... we are working on it. That's why nobody has got up on stage... made a hue and cry, al though many people feel very unhappy, both at our attitude of peaceful persuasion and the government for declaring that Malaysia is an Islamic country, for joining the OIC [Organisation of Islamic Countries, now known as Organisation of the Islamic Conference], which was done earlier and nobody objected then. Why do you think Malaysia sees the need to define itself, especially over these last several years, as an Islamic nation? This is also our difficulty. We are unable to understand it, the actual factor that is driving Malaysia to stress so much on Islam in both the local and international arena. 

We definitely feel very uncomfortable that a government chosen by people of all religions should pursue just one religion. We are unable to say for sure... we can conjecture... we have our opinions, based on what's happening in the world and in the country but... I don't want to say any more. How do you think MCCBCHS and the government can work together at this point in time to promote greater religious tolerance and freedom in Malaysia? The Council has taken the chance to see the top leadership. Within the last year, we have seen the former Governor of Malacca, the Yang DiPertua of Negri Sembilan, also the Sultans of Kedah and Pahang, the Regent of Perlis, and we have met the Mentris Besar [or Chief Ministers] of Sabah, Sarawak, Terengganu and Negri Sembilan. And when we meet them, we actually report to them on what is happening on the ground, and how we can help the state governments. 

Up to now, the Sultans are mostly taken as being the Sultans of Malays when they are actually the Sultans of all the citizens in the state. So, that is the kind of awareness we are trying to create, both among the royalty and among our people, that we must respect the royalty the same way the Malays do, as they are the fountainhead of the state. That is the approach the Council has been taking. And then, they also give instructions to their officers... to help. The Mentris Besar are also understanding and helpful. 

So, that is the way the Council has, all through the years, been trying to create understanding among the leadership and on the ground. The Council will discuss the issues and then the heads of the denominations will pass the word to their people. 

That is our stand always, until today. To create understanding and awareness. 

We are not happy about the word `tolerance', because tolerance is only temporary and nega tive. You tolerate for some time... but you are not desiring it and do not want it. What we re ally need is religious understanding and accept ance. And our emphasis is that all religions give the same kind of guidance for proper living as an individual, as a member of society, as a member of your religion and as a citizen. All religions do this. And this is what we should promote. 

The human factor should be highlighted. Especially, for instance, the recent events -- the tsunami. Everybody and anybody can be af fected. [It] does not mean you would escape if you follow a certain religion. So, as human beings, we should take the human approach. Then, there will be great understanding. 

We should not emphasise that only one religion has all the tools. That only the people of that religion are faithful. The negative attitude to others of other religions... that those who are not of their religion are not faithful, not so good... that is the kind of understanding or attitude with which people are wrongly fed. Although people try to emphasise this for good, it creates negativity. 

What we are saying is, please, at the government level, even on the religious levels, during the sermons, emphasise the values that religion teaches and how a person who holds the values can be good for society. If everyone follows the values, automatically, society will. 

But when emphasis in the media, any me dia, is only on one religion, the other citizens do feel either neglected or not equal. There are a lot of people unhappy with us for not openly expressing their fears. But if you openly ex press it... 

But we do have a leadership which is very understanding. They do take note of what the Council says. Slowly, there is some way of chang ing, be it through Islam Hadhari or something else... So what the Council is trying to do is work within the system... 

Within the system, yes. That is the first thing... is how the Council has always worked and is still working this way. Everything must be done within the system. 

But even working within the system, when we meet people, we don't mince words. We tell them actual situations, how a conversion of a person from one faith to another creates social and family problems. And we give actual examples. 

And, in this country now, we have many examples, where a person changes their religion to become a Muslim for marriage. Some cases, when the marriage has not taken place, there is no way the person can come back to either their original religion or some other religion. There is no ruling provided for this problem. That is what the Council has been pushing for -- a way must be found to overcome this growing problem. 

Until today, there is no law. But we have been told by Islamic scholars that there is no such prohibition in Islam, where a Muslim cannot change his religion. What can the government do to resolve the current situation of, as you mentioned, uneasiness, within the non-Muslim community in terms of religious freedom? We have written to the Prime Minister to see him. There is also a proposal to form an inter-religious council and that council should have members from all religions, including Is 

lam, and government representation. Then, they should listen to people's problems and make appropriate recommendations to the government. And the government should regulate and resolve the problems. That is our approach. But there was a proposal to form an inter-religious council some time last year. The meeting was apparently boycotted by some Islamic NGOs. What happened? Yes, there was a boycott. But we are nevertheless pursuing it. And we have formulated a Bill... which will be discussed. Our steering committee has agreed with it. We are going to have a two-day seminar next month where we will talk about the need for the Bill, and the need for the government to take note and take action on the things we have discussed. After that, we will forward the proposal to the government. 

Religion in this country is also highly political as well, as for instance, in the case of PAS. Can such situations promote religious tolerance, understanding and awareness? What can the Council do to promote understanding in such situations? See, our approach has been this. We have seen the PAS leadership on this issue. We met with the for mer Mentri Besar of Terengganu, Datuk Hadi Awang, and met with the PAS Committee, and we have highlighted this situation to them. 

So, frankly stating, the situation is this: religion is being used as a political form. PAS is using religion, saying that as Muslims, they are `special', exclusive people, and must have exclusive rights for everything. But they are all citizens of the country, all come under the Constitution. 

And, of course, the government is also looking for votes. And one of the easiest ways is to emphasise religion and religious factors. 

Somehow, religion in this country has been made into an emotional issue. It is very un- fortunate. The Council has taken note of this and we have been trying to detach this... how to detach? Very difficult. But, do not, please, do not use religion as a political tool. 

If you use that, if you have to emphasise one religion, anything negative about the re- ligion creates lots of negative feelings among people. 

Use the religious practices and the rules and the values for proper administration, for proper personal conduct, for proper social conduct. Don't just use religion... there are so many things... it is so emotional... 

So, our Council tries to balance things. There was a booklet out a few years ago on Malaysia Sebuah Negara Islam, [and] the Council took a very strong stand on it. The book was withdrawn. But... we view these things with great dismay. In your opinion, does Malaysia have a religious divide of Muslims and non-Mus- lims? If you go by perceptions... the government has always been emphasising one religion only. If some other religions are mentioned, it is only a justification... `We are really tol- erant, we allow others their religion... ' The question of `allowing' others, that does not arise. If you hold power, the power given to you is given under the Constitution, given by all the people to you. So the question of whether Malaysia is a model Islamic country and `allows' others... is very negative and should not be used. 

All that should be said is that `We are a constitutional country, a constitutional mon- archy, and everything -- rights, duties, respon- sibilities, obligations -- are all enshrined in the Constitution. And we are following the Con- stitution.' That is what should be told. 

Once you emphasise one religion, automatically, there is a perception that... all the people are following the religion. 

And the thing is, in any true actual Islamic state, non-Muslims can never be equal to Muslims in their rights and privileges. And as Malaysia has equal rights enshrined in its Constitution, it is not an Islamic state. Nor should it be. With all these negative perceptions -- of religion being used as a political tool, religious issues being brought up in secular courts -- where do you see Malaysia going in terms of religious freedom? Are we on the right path or do we have problems? We are having problems. And the Council views this with dismay, that the future does not look as bright as we had hoped. And, with the judiciary, we have not been able to get justice based on law. 

Our Council is very fearful that if perceptions are not corrected, then the future... [sighs, looks down] I do not know what it will be like. 

But the present government, and the present Prime Minister... the administration is taking a positive attitude towards all Malaysians. And we are hoping that, with his authority as a Muslim scholar and as Prime Minister, and with justice, Malaysia will find some way of overcoming this. How bad do you see the problems to be? At the moment, it's very bad because we are facing a wall! Because we don't know where to go. Because when it is a conversion, nobody seems to take responsibility. All we are told is, once you have converted, that's the end of it. When you converted, you were told this. 

Our issue is, this is an inter-religious kind of problem. They said, no, no, no. Once the person becomes a Muslim, it is an intra-religious issue. So you should not interfere. So, that was also the attitude of the people who boycotted the inter-religious conference. Any issue relating to any Muslim, whether born or converted, it is between the Muslims. 

We say, it is not so. Because they have previous lives... and families. 

I give you an example. See, like Shamala's case. Husband converts. Wife doesn't convert. Children are automatically converted. So, that creates an inter-religious problem. 

We have a person, girl or boy. Converts for the purpose of marriage. The marriage doesn't take place. And he or she then wants to marry someone else, cannot! So, where do we go to resolve this? 

What they are doing, most other people are going to other countries and converting now. If they can convert in other countries, why can't they convert here? It's not a religious requirement. 

What we are saying is, this is a growing problem. 

If you want people to inter-mingle, if you want better integration of the people, then you must allow a two-way street. If someone wants to become Muslim, welcome. But if someone wants to leave Islamvoluntarily, there shouldn't be any impediment. There should not be one-way traffic. Sardar Singh, the views you have expressed are very strong. But do you think people, Malaysians, really want to hear what you've spoken about? There are many Malaysians who want to hear that. There are more Malaysians who are asking `Why are you not openly expressing this situation'. Politicians? Their perception is based on how their votes will be affected. 

Definitely, people want to hear. This is not something that is hidden. It is not anything secret. Everybody knows. Everybody talks about it. The only thing is, we don't shout it from the rooftops. 


Jarnail Singh

The view is, that any conversion is against Islam. The Council's view is we are neither against Islam, nor for or against any other religion. It is simply religious freedom, and we are saying one should be free to practice one's religion, whichever religion that is, and follow those values for personal living


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 30, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

the attachment mentioned in the previous message... did not go through. too large.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 30, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Guru Nanak may look like a "false Prophet" to radicals like "muslim" and "Jinni" etc BUT see what the following report from malaysia says:

gurmukh pyare jio

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!

while at the GLOBAL SIKHS - WAVES OF MERCY command center at Sabha House yesterday, i could not help noticing the hugh stack of boxes of stuff that is going to be shipped to the villages 'adopted' by Global Sikhs in Aceh, Indonesia, today.

*among them were some boxes sent by PERKIM, which is a Muslim Missionary Society. wondering what this malaysian government backed muslim group was sending to the indonesian tsunami victims through the GLOBAL SIKHS, i was told that the boxes contained copies of the Quran and other stuff used for prayers by muslims.*

i cannot help thinking that:

*1. while Global Sikhs has been trying, with their limited resources and without government backing, to feed, shelter and rehabilitate the mainly muslim victims; PERKIM [with vast resources and government backing] seems to be only concerned with the religious aspects of relief.*

2. even they now have faith in the Global Sikhs being the only ones able to deliver their religious items to the victims, even though Global Sikhs are sikhs and not muslims. this is because other relief material is lying at the banda aceh airport, stuck in bureucratic red tape. only global sikhs, with their boats, can reach victims directly.

3. i think this gesture by PERKIM has truly established GLOBAL SIKHS as a multi-national, multi-ethnic, and multi-religious releief operation. well done to all the 'ladliaan faujaan' of guru ji.

4. both our groups working in aceh, indonesia and in south asia [sri lanka, india and andamans] are doing a wonderful job. truly in the khalsa traditions. they bring joy and pride to the hearts of all sikhs around the world. may waheguru bless them all.

My question to Muslim/Jinni is :  Do you still say we Sikhs are followers of a "false" prophet ?  YOUR people WANT us to carry YOUR QUARAN for YOUR MUSLIMS ??  Where are the BILLIONS of MUSLIMS ?? The 45 Countries ruled by Muslim Governments..the Oil Rich ARABS, Kuwaitis, dubaiis, Omans, turks, ??? in this time of NEED by MUSLIMS ?? SIKHS are distributing KORANS to MUSLIMS for MUSLIMS ...  Funny how "followers of false prophets are NEEDEd by the followers of correct prophet ??  The TRUTH is SIKHI isa TRUE UNIVERSAL RELIGION of the One GOD of the Universe that treats ALL as BROTHERS...Na ko Beri Nahin Begana..none is my Enemy..none a Stranger..Solidly PROVEN in Acheh Indonesia.

Jarnail Singh


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## BabbarSher (Jan 31, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

wah bai wah .. swad aa gaya


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## Arvind (Jan 31, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Gyani ji and BabbarSher ji,

Your efforts are so very welcome. This is truly sad to see what JIMM member had to say about fellow people. May He bless all those with required tolerance and intelligence to people who are hell bent to malice others.

Best Regards.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jan 31, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Das is just sitting beside his Muslim freind to be more clear giirl freind.And she is not happy what Muslim man has written.As per true Islam,If a person looses the cool and becomes offensive to oppoenet he looses.Das is sorry that Muslim has proven that majority of Muslim are not knowing Islam.

Rasool Said,that from him or from his Ummat(creed),people can get welfare only and nothing else.This is a good way that you gave welfare Bhai Muslim.


> >>>>looooooooool... whats the meaning of this gibberish.... I asked you for proof not for statements. The Prophet came to all the people in the world, wonder where you got that from ....ummm let me take a guess ... Quran ..
> 
> lol so where do you get your information? or do you just make it up as you go along? lol so whats the guru granth sahib to you? just a book? dont you ever read it and seek guidance from it, maybe thats a bit far fetched as its only your eternal guru for guidance.



So very good.Insted of providing the proof ,you have asked him the counter question.In Exam if you do,Say some one asks why sun sets in west and you write a counter question why does not it rise from west.You will get a BIG Zero.This proves that you are spritualy Zero.As you lack sprituality so you made adverce comments to Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

If you were nelightened you would have known that Guru is God only and that via Gurbani.By following Gurbani sikhs do good to all human beings.By misinterpreting holy Kuran your brothers do 9/11 and are paid back in Afghanistan and Iraq and very soon in Iran and Pakistan.It is not your fault.
Maybe Prphesy of First Master is coming true.God will give lesson to bigots by destrction of there existance.At last it will be in Saudi Arebia. 



> >>>> well your own standard the Quran says that Prophets are onyl Warners and only God is the guide... hmmmm seems to be contradicting what you are saying. Anyway whats this whole warning stuff.. ok let me guess.. God makes people, but then gets angry and jealous because they worship someone else.. is that what the warning is about..(what a concept of God..who is omniprsentand omnipowerful......please take a break......he is not jealous and angry at anyone) ...... or maybe we can add worship of the prophet who gave the warning, above God..... mebbe that even if u accept God id one, u aint going to heaven, but wowo..just accept that Prophet Mohammed is his prophet.. and off you go to non-stop trip to heaven .. lol
> 
> Yea they warn you from the incorrect and show the correct. Yes all guidance is from allah and he gives this guidance to the people through the prophets. lol your a real joke you know that, no god does not get jealous but he does not like those who do not obey him. hmm once again your hate towards islam is comming out yaaawn. And what do sikhs believe? we die and are reencarnated into a low or higher state of being. So what when i die i become a fly? ok fair enough but how do i become a good fly to move up. So if in each and every life im bad what do i keep getting reencarnated? does this mean that this life will never end of there is always people being bad? We know thats not tru as the world will end when the suns time is up in millions of years.



well spritually bankrupt muslims have no self confidence rather to say confidance in Allah who is in all self.So they have insecurity complex as you have shown above.

Anyway can any one dis obey Allah is the mute question.If some one is dislikeing someone for not obeying him then there is a facotr of hatred or jealousy.So prophet do nothing and only Allah does all.

Waves are useless in front of sea.And sea controls everything.One leafe can not flutter without the will of Allah so anyone who is doing kufar(infedality) is is doing just by will of Allha.Kuran satates Oh Faithfull had Allah wanted whole Kafirs(infidals) would have become momins(Faithfull) but only fortunate do become.Allah is least bothered about if any one obeys Allah or not as all is under the control of Allah as all forms are of Allah.Weather you become pig or a fly or a cow or a crow it is not in your deed or hands but in the hand of Allah.Just tell das,When your body is dead,You are buried in a grave,A badger eats your dead body(your carbon and oxygen contents go into badger),Badger dies,it is eaten by a pig.Again some part of yoour body become part of pigs body.Pig is eaten by Das.So your part become part of Das's body.

So during your last day of judgement(Qayamat) how will be the desicion made that whose body should be revied yours or das.or of Badger or of pig.The matterial recylces so can the souls.It is in the hand of Allah.Say at a three differnt time three people had same water in there body.Whose body will be revived or will it be reived without water.

If you have even a little faith in Allah you can answer.


> >>>>>>Well .. I am not able to make head or tail of what you are saying in this statement. Are you implying that you FOLLOW or you DO NOT follow .. please be clear .. and also whats the point ..
> 
> Are you brain dead? duh muslims follow them.



Das can see how god you are following.If all are like you then it is matter of few days that no one will there to defend them but Sikhs.

so this means if some muslims are eating pork,taking intewrst or drinking wine they must be followed like sheeps follw other sheep.


> >>>>>>So.. they already had a prophet .. what was the need of asecond prophet.. isnt it that one people are only sent prophet as per you .. or can there be multiple of prophets ... ??
> 
> Umm Jesus didnt come to the people of Arabia duuuuh.
> 
> ...



So this means that jesus had no rlation with Arebia that you are talking like racial Pagan arabs as whole manking is one race.Jesus had blood relation with Rasool as they were decendent of brothers Hazrat Ismail Ahle Salam and Hazrat Ishhaq Ahle Salam.So you agree that philistine is not an arebia where Jesus lived.

some Muslims are one eyed like you who are more after considering Muslims only as humans and other .

Niether you can convert any.Only Allah can make thing happens nor you can protect yourself as Allah is the only protector.

Just by reading Kuran,without the will of Allah Divne knowledge con not be obtained.So how can you think of Adi Guru Darbar hleping you,All is doen by God.God helps you Had God wanted you have understood the essence that God is beyond religeon.Allah is not muslim nor Akal a Sikh.

So what is in Gurmukhi script if the same knowledge can be explained by will of Allah to nayhuman being in any Language. Gurmukhi script is still alive and Gurbani has Arebic ,hindi among many other languages accomodated in it.But Holy Kuran has only arebic so thats why arabs mis quoted it.Such problem is not there in Gurbani as it has many languages as all languages are of God.Sikhs or Muslims do not convert others but God does.As a Sikh we feel anyone can get salvation with faith in God and with will of God but alas Tableeghi or preachers of islam have no faith in Allah.They are afraid,Just to overcome the fear that they are not wrong they misguide others who are fools.

After befooling fools by converting them they get a sense of security at least temporaryly that they are right as other are following them.they do not know that this done by Allah to put theses Tabeegheess off to Allah as Allah does not like bogots like you nor does Rasol and they may slap you when they meet you.

The way a foolish thrist crow says that look i have swimmed the sea off nector bur still I am thirsty so is your statement about Guru Granth Sahib Ji,Das pity you.

Gurmukhi is becoming popular in your muslims nations hey! where do you live,Have you been to Turkey ,Azar baizan,Central Asian Nations ,Iran or Afghnistans.

Many of your where own circumcensed and under going Baptisem(Baba Virsa Singh at work) ,It is rather your type of Islam,which is loosing the folks but empty vessals make more sound.It is more that you tend prevent rest of your folk from leaving your faith so do you say Muslims are converting other faith people to Islam.It is more a false propganda yet you stick to it.So you spred False hood.what about your Al Mahjrouns 's Baris plan to convert 25 millions to Islam on 21 July 2004. Due to only 500 odd Sikhs only 17 of your brave people turn out in a house of Chaudhri like a Rats.

When in Kashmeer your Jeehadis do holy war in Burqa,it shows how true you are,When pistols are hidden in book with kuran written on it or when your type of men hide in mosque full of devotees fearing allies following them.That is a good seen.

Well weather we preach or not our best religeon can be seen in the streets of eastern europe or in America or in Brazeel.We do not fear like you who make false claim about conversions.Just so that folks reamin togather.We have truth with us.Das has just given you a tip of iceberg.We do not have to supply the tesomonies of Converts because as per Sikhism even an non Sikh can get salvation  as it is dicieded by Allah,Iblis has taken over your mind and you treat as if Allah is under the control of rasool(Prophet) or Ummat (Creed of Muslims),Allah is showing you Allahs might and there is still time for you to do Tauba or penence or else you will loose.After Vazier Khan did injustice to young Princes 300 years ago,Islamic powers is moving to nadir and will still be moving.

We do not preach any one Sikhism but Allah does it for does who Allah want to be salvaged.


> Have said it earlier to idiots like Jinni .. leave us alone. leave our women alone .. we dont need you are your religion, but they dont understand ..
> 
> and when all else fails.. sikhs do know how to respond ..and response you will get from us..
> 
> AWWW all your women are reverting back to islam? what a shame. Lol umm i thought all religions are equal and can attain a path to god? so why does it matter if anyone is a sikh or muslim?



The problem is that if you are left alone then soon your type of people will wage a Jeehad on non beliver,The freedom you people enjoy in democracy rather misuse it so that civil libaerty of all human is at stake.Your mentality is more responsible for human right violations in India or in Iraq or in US govt. may not be blamed as you force them.Whereever your type is there,There is a war,If not with others(as they are elimnated) then with your self.

So if you rape or exploit your women,should we leave them.In old time during the Abdali invations,Muslims women were raped or taken as a slave Sikhs use to save them.Das hope that you are from Pakistan.Had Sikh not thwere and your women folk would have left on the mercy of coreligeous Afghans then may be you would have been riding a Camal as slave in the area of any Sheik.

Even today,Be it sons of Sddam or terrorists of Kashmeer,they abuse Muslim Ladies.So are these true mulsim afraid of power the way they were duing slave dynasty of Delhi.History says,Sikh King Ranjeet Singh bowed to Akal Takhat for commiting sin and took Punishment(This is in political Sc currucullam of 2nd year of BA) but Balban made Cleric(Ulema) to do Sazzda(touching head to ground to respect) for King.Never did any of brave come out to oppose this anti Islamic thing.This is called hypocracy.



> >>>> grow up... its not written in old testament or the new one about Prophet Mohammed.. the Christians and Jews both deny it. You are only feeding upon what radical islamic scholars feed you.. thats the whole issue with you guys,, me, my religiois best..others are stupid.. they cant be good.. they are mislead..
> 
> Ok so if if isnt written then why do they revert? Lol thats all you guys can pull out, radical muslim scholars lol. No islam is the same religion of moses and jesus.



you have been talking of pork since long so Das will tell you how did Mosses or Jesus followed Islam.Pig on earth does not eat its shit but it does it in heavan.Das never saw Pig doing this.It is foolish to expect from you that you did a stutdy of Pig.But after it was thrown out of heavon.

Pig made a sacrifise by takeing evil spirit removed from man by Jesus and with it sinking itself in sea(New Testment or Angeel).From that day pig was pardonned and its meat beacame ediable,so Great was Jesus.Adn even in holy kuran aslo Eating pork is forbbiddan in genral terms while eating as defying Allah other wise ok.So many of you Muslims do eat it.




> 600 years ago, Guru Nanak recognised the will of God, his Hukam and presented his religion. People before Guru Nanak --- also reognised will of God and attained him... many of the Bhagats lived before his age...
> 
> Guru Nanak brought out the truth as ordained by God, from the starting of time, while the rest of the world, just indulged in pettey rituals...



Can not you sea the term bhagats before him.Sikhism is Sanatan Dhrama ,the eternal faith,Started by Akal(God).It is here since universe is in being.It is of God,By the God and For the God.It was even before Hazrat Adam ahale Salla as Akali are nothing but Akal.Your Rasool was nothing more then a Sikh of Akal,That is exact position.Neither we worship Rasool nor any oen else but God.


> Lol so Guru Nanak is the only one who shared his religion with his peopl and the others who also recognised this will of god thought hmmm should i tell the people or not...nahh. Huh? guru nanak brought the truth from the beginning of time?



It was Akal ,who made Gurudev to do what he made Rasool to do.


> I look forward to the day Islam is the worlds biggest religion and Sikhism dies out, cos face it man like you said your women are embracing islam and leaving sikhi, people are loosing their 5k's and no one really attends your guduwaras.



so your own Wahabi,Sunni,Deobandi prefesses say other wise,

With the time false muslims will offend true Muslims(As you are offendining Babber Sher Singh  Ji),Allah will punish them with complete extermination.Only one with Black turban will remain.

Wait,what do Shia says,With Imam Mahdi,Five persons with Turbans and blue color will decend and librate the world.Five are called Khalasis.They are in fact Khalsa(The half moon on the turban of Nihung shows that).

Thing doed not end here.Have you seen what is behinf the black Wall of mecca.It is a cyninder like a place where animal are killed(you call it alter of Hazrat Ibraheem Ahle Salla) But it is like shiva linga as both look the same.

So should alter be worshipped.There are many things attached to other prophets of jews whcih were rather broken at Al Aqsa during Intefida movement of Philitineans(1999 2000),were they not worthy of Worship.

Khalsa is there to destroy any thing ,Worshipped ,other then Akal.so that alter is not an exception.Rember that instead of Mecca your fore father use to bow head to Jerusalem.The Khalsa created by Allah himself will make you worship in the direction of Allah,who is everywhere.From your very Muslims it is rising but your eyes blinded by Darkness can not see.You are not one eyed insptie of being bigot like turk and anti Islam(As it is turkism which is fantic and anti to all and not Islam) you are more blind like a foolish hindu.(Not all hindus are bad either).

you intelligent guy,The Das himself was not a Sikh but became Sikh by mercy of God.Even das had an option to embrace Islam but that faith there are people like you.Who have no sabar(Patiance) so Iblis takes over you but Wall Allah Sabreen(Allah is with one who have patnce).What great is my faith you fool Das can not explain.At one place fellow Muslim go for life of fellow muslim due to regional,sectornal or racial differnces.

But here Das and Babber Sher Brother have two differnent idealogies of Sikhism yet we can die for each other and kill for each other.Panth(Faith) loves the high quality of converts and Quantity does not matter.If there are more more conveerts in Islam like you than at the most it will die out with in next 50 years.What people do you convert,Drug addicts,Drunkards,Criminals or the one who are antagonsied from there socity.

Das is from hindu Family and they are happy that Das is Sikh as being a Sikh Das can do more for hindus then being a Hindu.A Sikh convert in west does not make hero of bin Laden (Muslim converts does and work against the national interest of that nation)but rather they work hard uplift the socity in which they live rahter then trying to overthrow it and enslave it latter.

Regarding Female folk.Das had many chances to do un Sikh act with Muslim female but das is not a Muslim like you,By the way on commiting adultary as per Islam one must be stoned to death but nothing actually happens as that Islam is dead in muslims like you.Das was always protected by Akal.And das did not commit adultary but had he been like you and you get a non muslim lady Das knows that you would have shown the true colors.

Circumsenstion is done to mark the amount of restrain but it has been made a mark lust by people like you.So did Saint Kabeer ,himself born in Muslim family did question,If it was do be done by God why was not it done before birth or why were we not born with circumsention.And what about female?If wife does not agree Muslim man has a right to rape his wife is not true,Is not this anti Kuran?

So in Bihar to Mahrashtra there is a rise in Singhs with 5ks and many of them were khans or muhamuds.Sikhs also marry many of Muslims female but we do not advertise as we have much more bigger thing to Propogate and that is name of God.We do not have to recruit Sheeps by telling other the x or y has become Muslims so you to come to the way of Islam.The people who do not have stuff worthy to be progated do such idiotics,We have name of God to preach.And we recruit Lions Singhs who are ever ready to die and not the rats like bin laden(who still lives in rat hole).It is better to not convert bad person in Faith then to have the less numbers.And In Sha Allah soon,Dear Muslim you will see that our Faith in Allah has paid us Back.

It is your type of creed which is going dowen,in Afghanistan,In Iraq,in Iran,in Pakistan and Singhs are increasing in High spirits Chradi Kala.After reading you das will never prevent neo convertees to Sikhism in eastern UP or Bihar from doing justice to muslims over there.You have lost a friend and infact due to you many Muslims in many part of India and other part of the world will suffer as they were in facr protected by Sikhs.

May Akal bless you.


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## devinesanative (Oct 6, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Dear Muslim


Mohammad was not a prophet since his childhood , but was a shepherd , used to take along with him the cattle to the fields where the cattle grazed .........

It was only after one day when he has an encounter with the Christian Philosopher or Priest , that he was enlightened ............

And then he founded ISLAM

ISLAM is an acronym for IS+LA+M

IS means ISA meaning JESUS , LA means ALLAH , M means Mohammed


It means Mohammed enlightened by Jesus about ALLAH .............


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## Admin (Oct 6, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

*Admin Note:* Last five posts in this thread have been deleted as they added nothing to the discussion. Dear muslim and devinesanative are advised to keep away from nonesense talk. A few more instances of such a chidish behaviour would invite a nice little harsh warning to both of you.  Grow Up dudes!!


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## devinesanative (Oct 6, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Dear Veer Aman Singh Ji

Anyways I am leaving this discussion forum ................

As Childs have no place here ............. 

Please don't mind what I am writing here .............. you can ofcourse delete it .....

I don't want to be the one of the cats among the cats here , 

Where this forum is the Weighing Scale ............

Bread is the Religion ...............

I think we all are fighting like a cat .............. 

And the Monkey who is getting benefit is the Owner of This Site ..........

So , its more or less like a Story which we have read 

Monkey and the Two Cats.......... : )

Sorry , Veer for saying so ..............

I humbly request you to delete my profile ........ and unsubscribe me from this forum ...............


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## Admin (Oct 6, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Take it easy. Do you mind telling us what kind of benefit, you are talking about?


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## hpluthera (Oct 25, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Dear Murkha
Firstly, it is not required to prove to anyone that Guru nanak Was a Prophet or Not.  "
Maney ki Gat Kahi Na Jaye Je Ko kahe ----"
It is the firm belief within that is important not the reason or argument to satisfy yours or mine ego.

Guru nanak Did write "that what ever he was writing is dictated by God while explaining to Bhai lalo in the verse in Adi Granth.  The Adi Granth is the final compilation of all the Gurus writings plus the saints Bhatts.

Debating a belief systems to undermine one's faith or glorifying other is like a Business and has no spiritual consequence hence a conversation in futality for ego feeding.  Guru Has asked his Sikhs to restrain from feeding this ego.  That is the reason there is no conversion in Sikhism as It accepts all humans as Sikhs and their ultimate goal is to become Khalsa the pure and His Soldier.

I do not care if you believe in Mohammad as a Prophet or not all I care that you are a human being in search of spiritual bliss be it through name of Allah or Rahim or Raam hence a Sikh and Gurubani can help you achieve in easiest way without diversion or conversion.  Once you are on its path you will not need the Roza or Chile or any of those namaazan, to get to Him and you  Reach direct to the "Sach Khand" the place of abode of the Lord or Allah.

The Misguided Muslims keep on thinking only one way "how to put down others religion and belief systems and tell them that they are all wrong and only their ways are right."

  Such persons are like "KUKAR Syane" the one who make a morning cry to wake others but themselves sleep.  So dear wake up and be receptive to practice remembering Allah's name in your heart to achieve spiritual bliss and share the knowledge for achieving that instead of creating controversies and disputes leading to create disharmonious behaviour.

There is no science of love it is an art of love. It can not be learnt by formulas it has to be practiced. May Allah give you wisdom to understand to not question others beliefs.
It does not matter if in your mind Guru nanak is not a Prophet who cares ?when He (Guru Nanak) is in many millions heart mind and faith.

Stop posting such stupid questions.

To the Host of this site may I request that Sikh Philosophy Site be used to constructive thaught and progressive thinking not disputing or questioning Belief systems.  Guru Teg Bahadur Laid his life for protection of Tilak and janju when Sri Guru Nanak Rejected those symbles. Lesson our Gurus gave is one they practiced not just worded.   Gurus inspite of their different path never undermined others but gave them Sehaj Marg of Sikhi which means we all are seekers of truth and Naam Simran is the easiest and cool way to get to Him.  So Dear friend make your breath the Mala of beads and start saying Allah Allah and you will get the answer on 21st day if guru was a prophet, It is my Gaurantee.
Love 
HP



			
				jinni said:
			
		

> Sikhs do call, Guru Nanak as their Prophet. Which is wrong, becos hazrat Muhammad [SAW]was the last prophet, and all others who claim to be one, are hypocrites and false prophet.
> 
> Guru Nanak was no Prophet just reformer, it would be clear by reading the fowlling.
> 
> ...


----------



## japjisahib04 (Oct 25, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

If any religion which keeps you within the bondage of hate, undermining others sentiments, is not true religion.
Regards Sahni Mohinder


----------



## sher (Nov 8, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

Signs of Prophets and Godly Men!

[1] Prophets don't spread hatered but love.
[2] Prophets create men not cowards who blow up kids and women.
[3] Prophets don't teach to divide war loot including women.
[4] Prophets respect women and don't say they are worth one fifth or fourth of manly votes etc.
[5] Prophets give true rules not temporary ones! Like what happens to a religion if moon blows up and are we really facing east when we say we do?? Think about it! How one will pray from moon? Ever moving experience while praying I guess.
Don't get me going please!


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## japjisahib04 (Nov 9, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

You are right. It is only the preistly class who preaches hate in order to run their business.
Thank God. Guru Nanak has strictly advised us to stay away from priestly class and advocated direct link with God.
Regards Sahni Mohinder


----------



## manbir (Nov 11, 2005)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

We cannot compare Guru Nanak with any of the prophets and especially the prophet of Islam - Mohammad Sahib. 

If we take into consideration the qualities of Mohammad and take those qualities as benchmark for being a prophet, then cetainly Guru Nanak would not be in that crowd. 

The life of Guru Nanak was very different from the life of Mohammad. Guru Nanak's whole life was spent on making people realise the importance of Love towards God and to live in HIS Hukam. He preached the universality of human race and to live a life devoid of rituals and dogmas. He never defined set of rules to be followed for attaining the LIGHT of GOD. 

The most wonderful aspect of Guru Nanak's teaching is that : --

'Every Faith leads to the same GOD. You may take any path to reach that goal, but take it truthfully" 

If there is One God and He belongs to every being in this universe, whats there to fight for. 

We are fools to fight in the name of My God and Your God.


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## japjisahib04 (Nov 12, 2005)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Guru Nanak never preached that whosoever does not believe him will be called {censored}/infidel or he is the last prohpet. On the contrary he been addressing himself as slave, lowly, cooker, servant etc. He didn't gave a false hope of wine rivers, houries or pearls in heaven in exchange of good life but preached nanak kai ghar kewal Naam. The ultimate bliss of union with God.
Regards Sahni Mohinder


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## manbir (Nov 12, 2005)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Guru Nanak's Bani is full of Love and humbleness. He never propagated of having some 'special' connection with God, rather in all his bani he depicts himself as of 'no virture' and always in Love with God and always praying for HIS mehar and Kirpa. 

With this, Guru Nanak showed his followers that the path to God is of humbleness, destruction of self ego and control of basic insticts of human beings.


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## japjisahib04 (Nov 12, 2005)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

You are very right, Manbir ji
Regards Sahni Mohinder


----------



## simribasi (Feb 18, 2006)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

WHOEVER SAID THIS I would say...
Tainu Sharam Aauni Chahigi aa! Incase you are a sikh it is bigger shame.....wait a minute, whichever religion you belong to -not only are you bringing bad name to your religion but are opening up an account with Hell. Congrats for obtaining the hell citizenship. Remember, Guru Nanak Sahib are, were and will always be the true light and just by closing your eyes, Sunshine wont finish similarly Gurus, God -they are not two but one will always be the Highest of all devtas, Christ and Prophet Muhammad!

Many people came and went by so your bad words wont make much of a difference!
Thanks


----------



## hps62 (Feb 18, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Dear Brother

Slam wale kum

Who told you that Sikhs dont believe In Prophet Mohammed.

We are a the only universal religion which worship all gods.

Now answer to your question :-

*Q 1 )*  The first duty that a prophet of God does is to tell his people that he has been appointed a prophet by God to invite people to His way. Thus, a genuine prophet claims to be a prophet of God, though this claim in itself is not enough. But first and foremost, a prophet has to claim himself to be a prophet of God. ----So, the first question you need to ask your Sikh friend is: Did Nanak really claim to be a prophet chosen by God to lead people out of darkness into light? 


*ANS :- Which text book says that this is the only way to define Prophet?.*

*Our beloved BIBLE , GEETA , GURU Granth SAHIB find no such  definition of a Prophet . *



Q 2 ): Did Nanak approve of the roles of earlier prophets of God, especially the prophet who came just before him, Muhammad (peace be on him)? 

If he says “yes,” ask him then how one can reconcile the fact that Muhammad was the Last Prophet of God and the claim that Nanak was a prophet after the Last Prophet. 

Ans 2 ) 

*Now we reconcile this by a simple fact. **Guru Granth Sahib is a revised and updated version of our beloved Koran.*

*It missed out on concepts like secularism , tolerance , Love for all irrespective of his faith.*

*By Being a good muslim actually you are fullfilling the criteria of being a Sikh . Welcome to this  universal religion.*



*Q 3 )* The third question is whether all the Sikhs believe that their holy book, called the Adi Granth, was revealed to Nanak by God. If they say “yes,” ask them whether there is any statement to that effect in the book itself and whether Nanak said that the Adi Granth had been fully revealed to him by God. If the answer is in the affirmative, your Sikh friend has to show the proof that the above statements are true, from the Adi Granth itself. This will not be possible for him to do for the following reasons: 

1. The Adi Granth is a collection of the writings of many Gurus including Nanak. It was in 1604—Nanak died in 1539—that Arjan Dev, one of the ten Gurus, compiled the hymns of Guru Nanak along with the compositions of both Hindu and Muslim holy men like Jaidev, Surdas, Sheikh Farid and Kabir. The compiled book was enshrined by Arjan in the Golden Temple with the name “Adi Granth.” 

2. A prophet of God is a model for all his followers in all aspects of life. But in the case of Sikhism, we find that it was not Guru Nanak, but the tenth Guru, Gobind Singh, who organized the community of Sikhs into a khalsa, “a spiritual brotherhood devoted to purity of thought and action.” He taught his followers to wear long hair (kesh, denoting saintly appearance), underwear (kachha, denoting self-control), an iron bangle (kara, denoting purity in acts), a comb (kangha, denoting cleanliness of mind and body), and a sword (kirpan, denoting fight for a just cause). 

3. Towards the end of his life, the aged Nanak returned home to Punjab and settled down at Kartharpur with his family. People came from far and near to hear his hymns and preaching. After his death, his Hindu followers thought him to be a Hindu and his Muslim followers thought him to be a Muslim. 

*Ans 3 ) It is a very simple answer SIKHS are the belivers of universality of religion . All good thoughts emanating from any person ( the manifestation of God ) including your self is worthy of being emulated and adopted by sikhs. we are a religion which is open and adaptable . No rigidities in us. No concept like time wrap.*


*Bhul Chuk maf*

*WGKWGH
Inshalla*

*hps62  :star:  *


----------



## nagaraja (Apr 9, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

* *
*we never (or anybody ) calimed that and (sai ) Sathguru Nanak was a  prophet we never said that.*
*1) But you should understand that he was one of the greatest ever saints to born and teach the true values to the mankind sach sach sach hi sach aad sach jugad sach Nanak hosi bhi such *
*2)He was true World Master Teacher Guru becoz he went to teach the world and show the true path to the then Known world he Never Critisized any body any prophet but instead  he sai that god is only one stop all meaningless rituals and so on....*
*3)No Saint in the world ever traveled that much and to educate people *
*4)He is true Master,Guru,Reformer,Saint of Saints,Peer ....*
*5) He clearly said that I am a slave ,Slave of the slaves why you are unknowingly propagating prophet things *
*Rab Jane Kaun Kya Hai *
*Be True in your faith thats all we need .*

*Thanks *
*Waheguru *


*


			
				jinni said:
			
		


			Sikhs do call, Guru Nanak as their Prophet. Which is wrong, becos hazrat Muhammad [SAW]was the last prophet, and all others who claim to be one, are hypocrites and false prophet.
		
Click to expand...

*


			
				jinni said:
			
		

> *Guru Nanak was no Prophet just reformer, it would be clear by reading the fowlling.*
> 
> *Qualities of a Prophet of God *
> 
> ...


----------



## KULWINDER SINGH (Apr 15, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Dear Friend, Sat Sri Akal
I Do Not Agree With You,
Can You Reply My Questions,

1. Who Says That "hazrat Muhammad" Were The Last Prophet Of God.
2. How Do You Know That What Qualities Are Necessary To Be A Prophet.
Are You God !
Who Are You ! 
Have You The Full Knowledge About Qualities Of A Prophet Of God.
I Think Only Prophet Of God Can Give The Answers Of These Questions.
Remember Dear
Lack Of Knowledge Can Some Time Prove Harmful To Anybody.
So Pls. Do Not Write Ant Thing Without Full Knowledge.

Regards


----------



## manbir (Apr 15, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

There is nothing like *'Prophet of God'*
Only insane and arrogant mind can claim himself to be a Prophet of GOD.
If today I claim myself as a prophet of God, tell me what proof can someone have anyone to disprove it !!!


----------



## Manmohan Singh Vijan (Apr 15, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Dear Friends,

I request my friend Sevadaar Jinni to kindly read this carefully.

I have read the Quran in English translation by Mermaduke Pickthal, a British Muslim. 

To all those interested in the subject, specially Jinni, I would recommend the following book.


"WHY I AM NOT A MUSLIM".
By
IBN WARRAQ.

(ISBN 0-87975-984-4)​
The writer is a Saudi Muslim, who now lives and teaches in Ohio. The book was published by *Prometheus Books* in 1995.

I also request him to be kind enough to let us know what he thinks of the book, of course after he has read it. Besides, I wish to know from Jinni, if he would take any action to ensure issue of a harsher Fatwa against Mr. Ibn Warraq than was issued against Salman Rushdie?

All friends should wait for that.

As far as Guru Nanak is concerned, he never claimed to be a prophet. So, this debate about him being a false or a genuine one is pointless. There however is no doubt that Guru Nanak gave to Humanity more Love and Peace than any Prophet. What do you think Dear Jinni?

Your Sevadaar,


Manmohan.


----------



## manbir (Apr 15, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

THe main difference between Mohammad and Guru Nanak is:

Mohammad - frightens its followers with the imagery of a dreadful hell and thousands of imaginary punishments if they did not believe Him to be the last prophet and messenger of Allah. He instilled FEAR and only FEAR.

Guru Nanak's message is of LOVE and only LOVE towards other Human beings irrespective of faith and religion. HIS MESSAGE IS THAT ANY MAN CAN MEET GOD IF HE CAN FIND GOD'S LIGHT IN EVERY THING IN THIS UNIVERSE. According to Guru Nanak's traching you donot become unbeleiver or {censored} if you donot follow Guru Nanak.


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## Manmohan Singh Vijan (Apr 15, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Dear Friend Jinni,

You have stated that "hazrat Muhammad [SAW]was the last prophet. 

I would request you to please enlighten me by a straight answer to the following question;

Who told you?

Besides, are you sure Allah will not send another prophet if it became necessary in His view?

Warm Regards,

Manmohan
_Sevadaar._


----------



## manbir (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

My dear friend Jinni,

You are well advised to take the effect of Jinn from your mind. Rather all fanatic Muslims are in fact under the spell of Jinn.
Do you have answer to the following ?
Muslims say that Quran is the complete code of life or complete in any sense. 
Then why, do Muslims seek help from the Hadiths? (Traditions) 

Muslims cannot understand the Quran without the Hadiths! 
If a Muslim does not believe in the (Hadiths) tradition of Mohd, he loses half of his deen, (Religion) --- Is it not highlighting the failure of the Quran itself? 

Here are some of the Hadiths !!!!!

(1) Mohd married with Ayesha when She was six year old and had sexual intercourse with her when she was 9 year old. (Al-Bukhari,Vol3,p91) 
(2) Mohd used to make love with all of his 9 wives in one go. (Al-Bukhari,Vol3,P118) 
(3) Mohd possessed sexual strength of 30 men (Al-Bukhari, Vol1, p181) and many similar Hadiths are in their authentic books. 
It is sickening to read the Hadiths. Imam Bukhari has provided more sexual details of Mohd in his AL-Bukhari Sharef, than in the KOKSHASTER. Muslims say that all Al-Bukhari Sharef hadiths are authentic. 
For example it is not mentioned in the Quran how you have to perform the five prayers, even the five prayers are not mentioned in the Quran, Details of the Hajj rituals have also not been given. 
Other things have not been mentioned, and are missing in the Quran, for example, how do Muslims lawfully slaughter the animals? 
The Quran does not say anything about circumcision, and details of when and where it should take place. Which method should be used is not highlighted.

This is not all. There are many more funny things in Hadiths that would be repulsive to normal thinking modern human being.

Do you still want to read Quran !!!

Can you still call Mohammad a prophet ?


----------



## manbir (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Mr Jinni

If suppose I become a Lunatic Tommorrow and start calling myself a Prophet and tell everyone that some angle of God has made me HIS Last Prophet. Would you beleive me ?? 
I know that you wont. 
Only another LUNATIC would beleive me and become my follower and I assure you there is no derth of Lunatics in this world.


----------



## manbir (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Mr Jinni

You say that Guru Nanak is a false Prophet. 

But tell me who told you that Guru Nanak was a Prophet. He never claimed Himself to be a Prophet of God. He never claimed to have any super natural powers in Himself. He never claimed to be someone with superior atributes.

Only a person with derranged state of Mind can come up with funny stories and abnormal claims of being a special messenger of God and that too the LAST one. As if GOD is exhausted of all the ideas and is left with no more capacity for further action and has reached to a state of Impotency !!


----------



## manbir (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Mr Jinni

Do you know how humble Guru Nanak was ?

He said
 " I belong to the a caste that is humblest of the humble. And I do not want to compare myself among big persons"


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## manbir (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Someone said

"Sharam Atee Nahe Apne Ko Fatishta Kahetae Huae"

Arogance is a a virtue of Fools


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## manbir (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Statement:
"hazrat Muhammad [SAW]was the last prophet."

Question:
Who told you?

Ans:
Prophet Himself !!!!  :}{}{}: :shock: 

Statement: I am the most learned person on this earth !!
Qus: Who told you ?
And: I myself !!!:}{}{}:


----------



## manbir (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Mr Jinni 

You call Guru Nanak a False Prophet and Mohammad a True Prophet !!!

Mohammad allowed Muslims to have FOUR wifes but He could not control his sexual desire and married to nine women, many more than a common Muslim. He was also allowed to keep countless maids.
Tell me who is True and who is FALSE !!

See the following Quranic verse Muhammad told his followers to justify his marriages and keeping of maid captives.

"O Prophet! We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have given their dowers; and those ladies whom your right hands possess (from the prisoners of war) whom Allah has assigned to you; and the daughters of your paternal uncles and aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and aunts, who have migrated with you; and the believing woman who gave herself to the Prophet if the Prophet desires to marry her – this permission is only for you and not for the other believers; we know what restrictions We have imposed on the other believers concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess. We have granted you this privilege as an exception so that no blame may be attached to you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful”. *(Quran 33:50)*

Now Tell me Mr. Jinni who is a False Prophet !!!


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## manbir (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Mr Jinni

What about Prophet Mohammad's Marriage to Aisha !!

His marriage with Aisha seems to be very funny when he was *53 *and she was *9*.    :}--}: 


  
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:



*Can you call HIM a True Prophet ???*


----------



## manbir (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Mr Jinni 

Do you know that Prophet Mohammad was engaged to Aisha when she was *a CHILD - 6 yrs old* and Prophet Mohammad was *50 yrs Old*. 

He consumated the marriage after 3 yrs when Aisha was 9 yrs old and Prophet Mohammad was 53 yrs old !!!

Can you still call Mohammad a Prophet and Guru Nanak a False Prophet ??


----------



## manbir (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Mr Jinni

Have you heard of this !!!


*Muhammad’s marriage with his adopted son’s wife*


*What a Great Prophet of God !!!*

*The great Prophet justified all this by adding verses to Quran for his own convieniance*


----------



## manbir (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Dear Mr. Jinni

Do you want more revelations about the Holy Quran and Last Prophet of God ??

If you are still confused about the deffinition of Prophet, More 'useful' information can be provided from Quran itself and from the life of Prophet Mohammad.

I simple advise to Mr. Jinni is that he should remove the JIN of idiocity from his mind and use his brain in a more logical way. 
God gave Man Inteligence, which is not to be thrown away uselessly, But to use it.

Guru Nank says "Remember God with your intelect intact"


----------



## manbir (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Dear Mr. Jinni

Do you want more revelations about the Holy Quran and Last Prophet of God ??

If you are still confused about the deffinition of Prophet, More 'useful' information can be provided from Quran itself and from the life of Prophet Mohammad.

I simple advise to Mr. Jinni is that he should remove the JIN of idiocity from his mind and use his brain in a more logical way. 
God gave Man Inteligence, which is not to be thrown away uselessly, But to use it.

Guru Nank says "Remember God with your intelect intact"


----------



## japjisahib04 (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*



			
				KULWINDER SINGH said:
			
		

> Dear Friend, Sat Sri Akal
> I Do Not Agree With You,
> Can You Reply My Questions,
> 
> ...


Guru Granth Sahib is the extension and elaboration of Mool Mantar. It gives succinctly the concept and most comprehensive definitions of God.Only those who are graced the qualities of Mul Mantar can define who is Gurmukh. Mul Mantar proclaims that The Truth has seven facets and the realization of truth requires the realization of sevenfold ideal in human living. Numerical ‘Ek’ is the first primal un-manifested Form of the One Nirgun or Transcendent. The other two are manifested Forms ‘Ong-kar’ and ‘SATNAM’, from ‘KARTA PURAKH’ to ‘Sai-Bhang’ are the attributes of The Truth. In this invocation each word is combination of two words, like ‘Sat-Naam’. “Sat,” means ever Living Truth being its identity, existing reality and ‘Naam’ – essence and emnation of The Truth. The third aspect is infinite creativity ‘Karta-purakh’ – ‘Karta’ means Creator. ‘Purakh’ which means intelligent consciousness that implies that not Nature, but The Truth is the Creator, Protector and Destroyer. The fourth aspect is ‘Nir-bhau’ - the Incomprehensible, total fearlessness. Fifth aspect is eternal, changeless entity ‘Aa-kaal-murat’. Murat means the Life-giving Entity. Akal means deathless and formless. Thus Akal Murat means that The Truth is the Living Entity, which is formless and never dies, and is the image of the Eternal. Thus the sixth aspect straight away says ‘Aa-juni’ that It is beyond cycle of births. Then comes ‘Sai-bhang’ which means enlightened by itself, implying that all that exists emanates from The Truth while It does not originate in anything. The invocation ends with the Word, Gur-parsad. The Guru is in fact the Shabad (Word) of the Truth and by enshrining shabad one qualifies for It's grace. 
Sahni Mohinder


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## Manmohan Singh Vijan (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

I suggest we close this debate. It is pointless. Jinni will never reply.

Let us not waste our time. We should concentrate on some fruitful activity.

Manmohan.
_Sevadaar._


----------



## Manmohan Singh Vijan (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Very Sorry.

A message meant for another string was posted here by mistake.
The same has now been removed.


----------



## vijaydeep Singh (Apr 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Gurfateh

There are some sects in Islam,who are Holy Kuran purists and do not have faith in Hadees.

They may procalim themsleve to be Wahabis.

Then in Shias and Sufi Sunnis,we have some who follow the understanding of Holy Kuran based upon the interpetation of thier Imam or Peer respectively.

There are some Muslims indeed called sipleeds(in Arebia),who follow interpetation of Holy Kuran by their peer refred as Abdul Majeed Guru Nanak by some Inidna Muslims.

many Muslims come to them to understand clearer meaning of Holy Kuran(referance an issue of book called Gurbani is jug main Channan).


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## Sugmad (May 6, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

First Prophet, Last prophet , middle Prophet ......?
First of all , if we were to check the past which we cannot , many a time was this Earth
of ours cleaned and restocked and cleaned again. At the Grand Maha Pralaya we all will be
taken up into Sach Khand. The Gurus and Prophets have been coming for trillions of years and beyond. Puny minds think they can have GOD on their side . The Lord Puran Dhani Anami Purush can do whatever he wants. He is closest to his Saints who have True Love for all. He can send His Gurus at any numbers . It is  true that Brahma , Shiva , Vishnu
also send their own to this MatLok . As these 3 main Gods are below Sach Khand , they are not beyond the grip of Maya. They also have Karmas. Rama and Krishna were incarnations of Vishnu himself.  Our Gurus were from Sach Khand and had the authority from SATNAM.
Guru Gobind Singh Ji came directly from Sach Khand to this lower world and even helped the Goddess Chandi(Durga Ma) in her battles which she was losing. Our Gurus which belong to all mankind as is Jesus and all true Masters have repeated again and again to do the Sewa of Maha Purush which is to Meditate on NAAM. Khalsa-hood is an automatic
attainment of any human who is genuine in his or her pursuit of GOD. One step taken towards GOD and He will take hundred steps towards us. Our Gurus were very humble
and had all their faith and sustenance in GOD himself ONLY.  As the Saints of GOD are under the protection of GOD , those who afflict any pain or misery to them have to answer to GOD HIMSELF.Many Christians think our Gurus were weak and too humble and that is because they do not know their true Christian religion by itself. True Christian religion
is very-very hard to follow as is Sikhism . Islam itself is buried in rituals and dogma that
has so many confused. Jihad actually means to fight our evil self within. All religions have their Karmas and have certain time limits on this earth. Bhagat Kabir has been here many-many times and so has our Gurus. Open thy Daswan Dwar and see the Glory of the True Guru. We have 9 openings in our body. 2 for eyes,2 for the nose,2 for the ears,1 for the mouth, 2 lower openings and that makes 9. These 9 openings lead to EVIL but the Daswan Dwar or Tenth Door that was explained by Guru Gobind Singh ji is located between
our eyes .This DOOR opens inward with Naam Simran and leads to Sach Khand.
In this DOOR is all creation enclosed and all Knowledge . When this door is Opened,
all outer taste will be insipid. The Visions seen with the (eyes) of the SOUL will struck
awe in thee. It is at this point that you will spend more time here as it is beyond the sphere of Maya and duality. That is why a True Khalsa (Gurmukh) is always meditating
as he has gone back home and known another existence (Jiwan Mukat.) All outer
enjoyments by the minds are discarded and this Soul literally becomes a KING.
His head bows only to GOD. Beyond this DOOR nothing can be written as it is beyond the
MIND. 
Guru Nanak has said in JapJi Sahib that some are closer to GOD and some are further away but eventually we all will come face to face with the Owner.
We should not be perturbed by claims of other religions or faiths or prophets.
We should work for our SOUL Liberation. Let GOD handle the rest. It is not our job.
When we are ready, it would not matter if we are christian,sikh,muslim,buddhist
or anything else ; the annointment has been given. Our steps will gradually lead
towards GOD. Where there were 2 , only 1 will be left. You after all did not exist.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Sugmad (May 6, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Dear Friends,

Do not belittle Muhammad S.A.W. or any other Prophets or Saviours.
All had their job to do. Facts are different . 
Please read SukhMani Sahib by Guru Arjan Dev Ji about the Brahm Giani.
We never know who is the beloved of GOD. The ways of the Men and
Women of GOD are very strange. We try to understand them with our
small minds. We all make mistakes and i do them daily, nay , every moment.
The Names of GOD are all different in all the different religions.
Puny minds tries to invoke . Let them.
Follow the ways of all our Gurus from GURU NANAK DEV JI UNTIL
GURU GOBIND SINGH JI. Learn their ways and study their stories
from all sources. In that confusion your Inner Voice will guide
you to truth. 
Let them belittle us. We are different. Our Harminder Sahib has four huge doors
opened always towards the world. We do not care if we have 6 billion sikhs
or 10 sikhs in this world , as long those 10 are true Khalsa. What if we have 6 billion
sikhs but none has GOD. It is best to have a few who sacrifice their ego and study and meditate on GOD only and guide our sikh community towards the vision of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. Everybody wants to be a leader and teacher of others. To climb the ladder
of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj is not easy, you have to be the lowest of the low.
This is a path of the ONE to the ONE. From the lowest rung of the ladder
will arise the true GURMUKH KHALSA who will shine true LIGHT on ALL.
Many follow the outer form of the Khalsa and not even have an idea of
the INNER state of the Khalsa. The Khalsa of the Guru has the JYOT of NAAM
 in his HEART ALWAYS. 
So as Jesus had said in humility , ''RESIST NOT EVIL"


IN EVERY HEART THOU ART HIDDEN;
IN EVERY HEART BURNS THY LIGHT.
THE GURU'S MESSAGE BURSTS OPEN
THE GRANITE DOORS TO SALVATION.
REVEALING THE FEARLESS ONE
ENTRANCED IN PROFOUND MEDITATION.

GURU NANAK DEV DI MAHARAJ


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## Sugmad (May 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Sri Hemkunt Sahib






There is a place high in the snow capped mountains of the Himalayas that was hidden from sight for eons. For thousands of years this place has remained unknown to humans, a place of utter beauty and peaceful serenity. Here a natural lake lies on a plateau at a height of 15,000 feet surrounded by seven white clad peaks. To the Sikhs this place is known a Hemkunt Sahib. 

Hemkunt Sahib is associated with the tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, but what distinguishes it from other historical sites to the great Guru is that it is linked to Guru Sahib Ji’s previous incarnation as the mighty warrior *Dusht Daman*. Guru Sahib Ji mentions this place in his composition *Bachittar Natak*. But it was not until the twentieth century after many long years of searching that Hemkunt Sahib was finally discovered.

Before this site was discovered by the Sikhs it was known locally as *Lokpal*, which translates to ‘protector of the world’. It was a place of worship and pilgrimage by the local population, a place linked to the hindu trinity of the creator – Brahma, the sustainer – Vishnu, and the destroyer – Shiv Ji. The Vedas and Purana text of ancient India mention the Himalayas as the abode of the gods and goddesses, the locals tell tales of Lakshman, Vishu and Hanuman.

The deity Lakshman who was mortally wounded in battle against the demons, was brought to the shores of the lake by his wife. She prayed to Hanuman the monkey god to save his life. Hanuman heard her prayers and found the life giving herb called *Sanjivani Bhutti*, this was given to Lakshman and he was revived. The gods were overjoyed and went to Lord Bramha to give thanks, seek his blessing and to protect them from the demons who ravaged the world. Lord Brahma told them that only *Nanak* the saviour of the universe can assist them in his tenth incarnation, that he will destroy evil and tyranny and will become the protector of the holy people. Lord Brahma recounts the following tale. 

*Dusht Daman* During the age of truth – Sat Yuga, gods and mortals will face the tyranny of the fierce demons known as _Dhents_. The gods will call upon *Durga Devi* to assist them and she will do battle against the _dhents_. The onslaught will be too much even for her and she will flee to the mountains. Here she will approach a holy man called *Samaundh Rikhi* who will be seated upon a lions skin. She will ask for his help. The pursuing demons will also reach his abode and demand that the rishi tell them where she is. The rikhi says that since the devi has sought his protection he is duty bound to assist her. The demons are enraged by this and draw their swords. The rishi addresses them " I am a Brahmin and will therefore not take up arms against you, but I will create a Khattri (warrior class) who will be known as *Dusht Daman* (destroyer of evil) who will destroy you and your kin". He then rises and shakes the lion skin, from this emerges _shakti_ (power) in the form of a Khattri warrior carrying a sword. The warrior asks permission to engage in battle with the _dhents_. When this is given the battle ensues. The battles last for many years and in the end all the _dhents_ are destroyed by *Dusht Daman*. The warrior then returns to the rikhi and says "what are your orders now ?" The rikhi tells the youth that he is to go to the mountains and perform intense penance and austerities. *Dusht Daman* sets of and reaches the lake of Hemkunt Sahib and spends many many years meditating on the name of the one true God. So much _tapasia_ (meditation on Gods name) is done that the two – *Dusht Daman* and God – become one.





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## Sugmad (May 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

*it Is True Prophet Muhammad S.a.w. Was The Last One.*
*he Was The Last One In His Line Of Prophets.*
*in Our Line It Was Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj Khalsa*
*who Was The Last One. There Are Other Lines Too Like For Kabir,*
*other Saints And Masters.*
*so In Their Own Way They Are Right. We Are Also Right. Everybody Is Right After All On Their Own Level.*
*dont Worry Too Much About The Happenings Of This World.they Will Keep Changing As Always. Do Thy Naam Simran And Free*
*your Self. *


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## Sugmad (May 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Sri Hemkunt Sahib




*
Guru Gobind Singh Ji* in his composition Bachittar Natak, which is written in beautiful poetry form, describes the lineage of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and how they were blessed to come to this world to put mankind on the path of righteousness.

Guru Ji writes that Ram Chander son of Raja Dasrath had two sons Lava and Kushu. Lava and Kushu together ruled over Northern India for many years. They remained good friends during their rule and they colonized two important cities, Lahore and Kasur. But when after many long years of reign they passed away their sons could not tolerate each other. They became great enemies. One grand son of Lava named *Sodhi* won the battle and became the king of Punjab. The grandsons of Kushu were defeated and they made there way to the city of Banaras. Here they settled down and learnt the Vedas, the ancient scriptures. Due to their knowledge of the Vedas, they became known as the Vedees (or *Bedies*).

One day king Sodhi remembered that his relatives lived in Banaras. He decided to meet them after all these years. He sent a messenger and invited them to Lahore, they all came at once and reached the Darbar of King Sodhi.

King Sodhi was very impressed by their wisdom and knowledge and asked them to recite the four Vedas. When the Bedies recited three of the four Veda, King Sodhi was moved, he got up from his throne and asked the leader of the Bedies to take his royal seat. He offered his kingdom to the Bedies with great honor. He himself decided to leave behind his reign and riches and went off into the forests in order to contemplate the Name of God.

When king Sodhi got prepared for his new abode, the newly crowned king Bedie said, "As you have gifted us this worldly kingdom after hearing three Vedas, similarly in the age of Kalyug we would offer you the Divine Kingdom in our third incarnation." 







So it came to pass that in the age of Kalyug in the house of Bedie, *Guru Nanak *was born as first Divine master, he was called the true Patshah. After reigning as the Divine King in the form of Guru Nanak Dev, Guru Angad Dev and Guru Amar Dass, he offered his Divine kingdom to the house of Sodhi , to Sodhi Patshah Guru Ram Dass Ji. The guruship then remained in the Sodhi house where it passed to Guru Arjun Dev Ji, Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji, Guru Har Rai Ji, Guru Harkrishan Sahib Ji and then to Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji. Not only was the nineth Guru the father of the tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji in this life but also in the previous, for *Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji *was the *Samaundh Rikhi* that created the Dusht Daman shakti.





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## Sugmad (May 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Sri Hemkunt Sahib

Guru Gobind Singh Ji then continues with his own story (apni katha) : 
*
Now I narrate my story,how from meditation and austerities I came to this world. At that place where Hemkunt Mountain is adorned by seven peaks, the place named Sapatsring where King Pandu did yoga. There I did intense meditation and austerities and contemplated God. In this way I meditated until, from duality, two forms (God and myself) became one. My father and mother also contemplated the Formless One through several kinds of yoga and austere discipline. They served the Formless One and God was pleased with them. So God gave a command to me, and then I took birth in Kal Yug. I did not desire to come, as I was absorbed in devotion at God's feet. Somehow God made me understand His purpose, and saying thus sent me into this world.

From meditation and austerities God called me, and saying thus sent me into this world. God speaks: "I acknowledge and bless you as my son. I have created you to teach the true path.
Wherever in the world you go, spread righteousness, and remove ignorance from the world. "
The poet speaks: "I stood, folded my hands, and spoke this promise with head bowed: 'With You as the supporter Your path will be established in the world.'" For this work God sent me, and then I was born into the world.
*
*Bachittar Natak.*





Devotees set off in the early hours of the morning from Gobind Dham. They cross the bridge over Hem Gunga - whose source is the Hemkunt lake - and start ascending the final 5000 feet over a 5km track. This journey can take upto four hours as the air at such altitude becomes thin and tiredness and fatigue sets in.

Here we see Nihang Singhs climbing the final 1184 steps to the top and a Nihang Singh standing in front of the still half frozen lake.






The great scholar and close disciple of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Bhai Mani Singh compiled the compositions of Guru Sahib ji into the *Dasam Granth*, in 1734. A turbulent century passed in which the Sikhs were persecuted and hunted like animals. It was not until the nineteenth century when things had settled down somewhat that attention turned towards the passages in the Bachittar Natak that described Sri Hemkunt Sahib. 






The Maharaja of Patiala gave a grant to Pandit *Tara Singh* a historian from the nineteenth century to compile a list of all the Sikh shrines, this he did in his book Sri Guru Tirath Sangrah, published in 1884 and he mentions Hemkunt Sahibs geological location to be in the Uttarkhand area of the state of Uttar Pardash. Later the renowned scholar and noted poet *Bhai Vir Singh* did much to develop the Hemkunt site. Bhai Vir Singh gives a detailed description of of the Tap asthan in his famous work *Sri Kalgidhar Chamtkar,* published 1929. The opening chapters of this historical biography describes Guru Sahibs passage from Hemkunt to Sach Khand (the realm of Truth) where he was given his mission by God, and then from Sach Khand to Mat Lok (the terrestrial world), this account is based on the texts of Suraj Parkash and Guru Sahib Ji’s Bachittar Natak.





*This image shows an aerial view of the mountain pass that goes all the way up to Hemkunt Sahib. Gobind Dham can be seen at the bottom right of the image. If the zig-zag path is followed up the picture Hemkunt Sahib can be seen as a small white dot to the top of the image.*






*Looking down from Hemkunt Sahib*

A retired army general *Sant Sohan singh* read Bhai Vir Singhs description of Hemkunt Sahib and was so moved by the account that he vowed to make it his lifes mission to find the place where Guru Sahib Ji had meditated. He set out in the spring of 1933 following the clues in Bachittar Natak, Suraj Parkash, Guru Tirath Sangrah and the ancient texts of the Mahabharata. He traveled passed Rishikesh towards Pandukshwar always enquiring from local people about their folk laws. Then one day he heard some stories about a lake known locally as Lokpal, he decided to investigate. He accompanied some local women who were on their way to Lokpal to do puja (prayers) to Lakshman. He crossed the river with the assistance of the villagers and started towards the sarovar they had spoken of. On the final day of his journey, he climbed the steep slope towards Lokpal alone. When he saw the beautiful lake he started to count the peaks which surrounded it, wondering if this could be the place described in Bachitar Natak.

As he was counting, he heard a voice behind him say, "From where did you come and for what do you search?" Sohan Singh turned and saw a tall rikhi (hermit) clad in white. He had a long beard, heavy eyelids, and a face so radiant that Sohan Singh was unable to look at him eye to eye . Sohan Singh bowed his head before the rikhi and said “ I came to search for the meditation place of Guru Gobind Singh." The rikhi gestured to a flat stone beside the water and said that this was the place at which the Guru had sat for so long in deep meditation,"Go and bow your head." Sohan Singh hastened to go, and his eyes were filled with tears of joy that after two years of exploration he had finally found the place he had been seeking. The ecstasy at the fulfillment of a cherished mission was too great and he was somewhat dazed. While he was in this state, it occurred to him that he should ask the rikhi more questions. But when he opened his eyes and turned, the old holy man had disappeared.

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## Sugmad (May 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

*Sri Hemkunt Sahib*

Sant Sohan singh wanted to spread the news of his discovery but none wanted to heard it, it fell on deaf ears. The Gurdwara committee of Musourie the closest town to Uttarkhand were very skeptical, as were the Sharomani Gurdwara Parbandakh Committee, nobody would listen. He then decided to contact Bhai Vir Singh Ji. In 1934 Sohan Singh met Bhai Vir Singh and convinced him that he had found Hemkunt Sahib.








The Brahm Kamal flower, native to the Himalayas.

*Hemkunt Sahib map
*







Bhai Vir Singh offered his help to develop the site of Hemkunt Sahib. He gave Sohan Singh funds to buy material and construct a Gurdwara on the shores of the lake. Sohan Singh was accompanied by a Havaldar (army sergeant) called *Modan Singh* who had offered his services. A year later both of them set off again. They got a local building contractor to start construction of the gurdwara after obtaining local permission. Out of respect for the Hindu mandir that stood on the shores of the lake, it was also enlarged and improved. Such was the devotion of Modan Singh that after retiring from the army he dedicated his life to the service of Hemkunt Sahib.






Bhai Soorat Singh was a Gursikh who even in 1949 used to do make the yatra to Hemkund Sahib.

Here he descibes some of the incidents that took place at this sacred place; “Every year I would go from Gobind Dham to Hemkund Sahib and in the evening return back. In those days there was a very small Gurdwara there and I would complete the bhog of a sehaj paath in around 15 or 16 days. When I would do paath though, I wouldn’t speak out aloud but sometimes it seemed to me that the Gurdwara Sahib was filled with Singhs and sometimes there was no one. One day at the time of of the bhog, I finished by saying a Fateh! And to my surprise, it was answered by Singhs sitting in the Darbar. I looked up and five or six of them were wearing blue clothes and the rest were wearing white. All had shastars. One Singh stood and said, “Bhai Sahib, do not doubt us, we are 16 Shaheed Singhs in this Gurdwara and many others also come around here.”

Many times I would spend the night in the veranda and I would hear the keertan of Asa Dee Vaar. Once, early morning I was sitting in the veranda when I saw a being riding a white lion come, bathe in the sarovar and then ride off again on the lion.”

In the early days there was no shelter on route to Hemkunt Sahib and Moden Singh would shelter from the fierce wind and cold weather in a hollowed out tree trunk. This tree trunk still stands in the grounds of the gurdwara of Gobind Dham. Today there is a string of gurdwaras from Hardwar to Rishkesh, Srinagar, Joshimat, Gobind Ghat and Gobind Dham where devotees can rest for food and shelter.

A beautiful gurdwara now stands on the shores of the lake of ice in the shape of an upturned lotus flower, designed so that it can withstand the heavy snowfalls that cover it for much of the year. Hot tea is served to all who reach there , many take a dip in the sacred lake. The men dipping in the lake with separate facilities for the ladies next to the Gurdwara. The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is housed within the gurdwara under a beautiful brass canopy. Blankets are available within the gurdwara. Overnight stays at Hemkunt Sahib are not permitted for it is said that shaheed (martyred) spirits make their presence known at amritwale (Gods time – early hours of the morning). Pilgrims make their descent as early as possible for sunset throughout the season is at 6.00pm and the trail can become very difficult. Steadily the pilgrims have increased from 500 in 1977 to over 180,000 in 1990.
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## Sugmad (May 16, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

DUSHT DAMAN DOMAIN


Sri Hemkunt Sahib





A full view of Hemkund parbat (mountain). At the foot of the image is Gobind Dham, from here the path zig zags 6kms all the way up to Hemkund Sahib. The gurdwara can just be seen as a tiny white dot two thirds up the middle of the image.

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​


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## Pukandi Baba (May 17, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*



			
				BabbarSher said:
			
		

> *Gurbani is about Love, not about hating ur fellow beings *
> 
> *Gurbani is about Naam, and focusses ion worship of One True God, NOT some prophet. *


 
This my friend *is* Sikhism! 

It praises the *one God* unlike all the other religions!


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## Kuldeep Singh Dhillon (Jul 7, 2006)

*HOw can use such stupid words for Guru Nanak(A Prophet) ?*

how dare you that you used such a nonsence thinking to discribe Guru Nanak. 
With your stupid thinking a Prophet can not be justified. who are you to judge the Prophers?
Have you seen any certificate of Muhmmad for his Prophethood? how can you say that he was the last prophet? Have ever met Guru nanak or Muhmmad?
answer me waiting for your reply

Kuldeep Singh Dhillon
ks25_2000@yahoo.com


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## Archived_member7 (Jul 8, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

HOW DARE THAT SLIT ORGAN CALL GURU MAHARAJ ANYTHING ??? WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO DECIDE???

MOHAMAD ..YOR PROPHET...WAS NOT SOMEONE THROWN FRM HEAVEN...AND HIS CHARACTER..IS WELL KNOWN..THAT FOOL COULDNT FIND A GAL TO SCREW OF HIS AGE...MOHAMMAD...SCRED A GAL 20 YEARS HIS SENIOR AND THEN ALMOST THE SAME DIFFERENCE HIS JUNIOR...

THAT PAEDOPHIL....HE SCREWD A 8 YEAR OLD CHILD....

NOW SANGAT...JUST SEE THEIR VIEW...THEY WILL HIDE...WHAT IS OPEN..THATS IS THEIR WOMAN..AND OPEN WHATS CLSOED...THATS THE MALE ORGAN...

SUCH SHIT ...KEEP YOR PORNOGRAPHICAL ISLAM TO YORSELF...

dont ever try to teach us our sikhi....

saadh sangat..i m sorry ...but the khalsa in me is not that cold that i cannot react...to a person who wants to prove that his porn shit is true ...


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## manbir (Jul 8, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

There is no comparision Between Guru Nanak and the so called 'Prophet' Mohammad. 
If you read about his actions his karnee, its nothing but Repulsive. 

The modern way of thinking and civilized behaviour does not seem to apply to the life of Prophet Mohammad.

If you read Hadiths you'll find Mohammad nothing but a Sex starved creature. For Exaple:
(1) Mohd married with Ayesha when She was six year old and had sexual intercourse with her when she was 9 year old. (Al-Bukhari,Vol3,p91) 
(2) Mohd used to make love with all of his 9 wives in one go. (Al-Bukhari,Vol3,P118) 
(3) Mohd possessed sexual strength of 30 men (Al-Bukhari, Vol1, p181) and many similar Hadiths are in their authentic books. 

It is sickening to read the Hadiths. Imam Bukhari has provided more sexual details of Mohd in his AL-Bukhari Sharef, than in the KOKSHASTER. 
Muslims say that all Al-Bukhari Sharef hadiths are authentic. 

You cannot compare Mohammad to Guru Nanak. Even Guru Nanak's Sikhs would present a better character than Mohammad !!

I would like to bring to the notice of Jinni the following facts about the life of Mohammad. His so called prophet is no where near Guru Nanak.
Here are some of pure facts in the life of 'Prophet Mohammad'

Muhammad committed mass murder of the Jews who never fought against him and whose only crime was to be wealthy and not want to believe in his claim.

Muhammad raped women whose husbands he murdered in his raids. Or he tortured people in the most sadistic way before killing them.
He raided innocent civilians with no warning, killed the men and then chose the prettiest women for himself and had sex with them on the same day he killed their husbands, fathers and loved ones. This is the case of Jwairyah, Rayhanah and Safiyah. The stories of these women are extremely revealing as much as they are disturbing. 

Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old child. Is this a sign of a prophet ? Jinni and other Muslims would bring all lame excuses and moral relativistic arguments to dodge the question. Ask them if Muhammad claimed to be a prophet of God why he followed the bad examples of the people of his time? Furthermore, is there any evidence that in those days 50 year old men married 6 year old children? This is not even natural. Normal men do not get sexually attracted to children. Only a pedophile can become sexually aroused by a child. 
Even in the animal kingdom where animals respond to their animalistic instincts, pre-puberty animals and birds are spared and not desired by the male animals in heat. I would think that it is a biological reaction that is ingrained in all of us not to lust after or desire or be turned on by any child immaterial of what kind of perverts we may be. Having sexual feelings for children is unnatural and it is a sickness of mind. It has nothing to do with morality. Any adult who lusts after a child is not normal.

Muhammad was sick in the head. 

And you have the guts to compare him to Guru Nanak !!!

About the Bani Quraiza, the Jewish tribe that resided near Medina for 2000 years. Muhammad massacred all their men and enslaved their women and children. To separate boys from men, he inspected their genitals. If they had grown pubic hair he decided they are men and kill them. I would like to ask those calling Mohamad a prophet to justify that. Are they willing to condemn at least his genocides? The only guilt of the Bani Quraiza was their unwillingness to accept Muhammad as their prophet. But suppose they were guilty of something terrible. Was every single person of them including the children guilty? Is having pubic hair evidence of guilt? 

About Asma Bint Marwan, the mother of five small children and Abu Afak, a 120 year old man, who were assassinated in the middle of the night at the order of Muhammad for composing poems that he found insulting.


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 9, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Though Muslims and Sikh religions shares belief in One Reality and are very much close to each other in many fundamentals like condemning of casteism, idol worship, but there is difference in other basic resolutions. 
i) Sikh believe in reincarnation and deeds whereas in Islam believe only one birth & death. Gurmat firmly believe either in merger into God by virtuous deeds or into re-incarnation thus didn’t agree with the theory of Islam that there is only one chance, there is only one way, and we are judged according to it and re-incarnation theory is absurd. A human can only exit the web of karma by meditating on Gurmat Naam and immersing the self into Akaal.   Gurbani cautions,“ies pauri tai jo nar chukai so aaye jaey dukh paeda - that human whosoever does not live a truthful life and miss the opportunity of being human suffers in the form of re-incarnation.” - Guru Granth ang.1075.15.  As a mother is compassionate so is God. With thousands of mistakes, the mother though sometimes gets frustrated, but never stops loving the child. It is God who put that compassionate nature into the mother. How can we say God is not compassionate at all? The human will make thousands of mistakes in their life, no matter how holy they are, but God will always love them, help them, and be compassionate towards them. He gives them thousands of chances and these chances, which come in many forms, are called re-incarnation. 
 ii) Muslims believe in absolute God who resides in the Seventh world whereas Sikh believe in God who Himself is absolute, self-governing and is within all of us but cannot be contained in a certain place. Verses of Gurbani says, “nanak ka patshah dessai jaahra – Satguru Nanak’s God is right in His creation.” - Guru Granth ang.397.7.  In addition Guru Nanak says listen O, people “nanak kahat suno rai logha sant rasan to baseeho - Waheguru lives on the tongue of the Saint (who have tamed their mind through sabd) a living person (jiwan mukta).” - Guru Granth ang.700.11. 
 iii) Muslims believe creation of world in six days (though time is subjective) and end on Roze-qiamat whereas Sikh view the universe as an act of instant creation - a spontaneous manifestation of the unattributed Primal God- and its dissolution. It also says no one knows how many times it has come into existence and how many times it has evaporated in flick of an eye blink.  Gurbani tells us like this, “khin maithaph uthapda - in an instant, He establishes and disestablishes.” - Guru Granth ang.706.3. Thus it supports evolution theory as per science. It further declares it is a divine sport and “whenever it pleases Him He created the Universe and as He desires, He absorbs it back into Himself.” - Guru Granth ang.292.8. Besides this, Gurbani further says, “kaei baar pasreo pasaar - Many times He has expanded universal expansion, yet each time at the end (and before) abides the Sole Supreme Being.” - Guru Granth ang.276.13. 
 iv) Muslims yearn for Heaven whereas Sikh believe to merge back into God from whom we were separated - “As the waves of water merge again with the water, so does one light merge again into the Light.” - Guru Granth ang.102.7.
v) Both faiths recognize the Oneness of God and regard it as human duty to follow what they describe as the Hukam, the Divine Will. However, they differ on the content of this hukm. For Muslims,it can be derived from the Holy Koran, the hadith of the Prophet Muhammed (Peace Be Upon Him), the consensus of the religious scholars (ijma) and argument by analogy (ijtihad).The kafiris the rebel, the unbeliever, who denies this hukm.For Sikhs, the hukm is unspeakable: "hukm na ka-ha ja-ye". It can only be realized when lived. Therefore, the emphasis is on personal experience rather than social order. God's laws and truths are written in every human heart, 
they are inscribed in the very being of our nature,articulated in 
the body, mind and soul.  
vi) Muslims believe in fourteen worlds whereas Sikhism in millions of worlds and nether worlds. Gurbani says, “kot brahmand ko thakhur soami - He is God and Master of millions of universe.” - Guru Granth ang.612.5.      
 vi) Muslims embrace Shari’at whereas Sikh believes in Maryada, His command strictly based on gurbani.
 vii) Muslim believe Fasting, Jihad & ‘Sunat’ is their duty (which is not reflected in Quran whereas in Sikhism there is nothing like that but there are five ‘kakaar’ (Kaysh (long hair) ‘Stamp of Guru that you are a Sikh – a symbol of spirituality’, Kanga (comb) ‘a symbol of orderliness and cleanliness’ and to keep the hair. The uncut hair signified traditional ascetic renunciation but it was tamed by the comb which did not allow it to become matted thus symbolizing continued participation in the world; Kachehra (underwear) ‘signifies self control and restraint, to be jati and sati’, Kada (a steel bracelet) ‘to remind to cultivate in himself the awareness of immorality thus not to indulge in any wickedness’ & an iron bracelet that remind me that I am day and night in my Guru's bondage, superstition and to denote the universality of God, and Kirpan (sword) a symbol of power and dignity. It is an instrument of defense and protecting the weak. These ‘kakaar’ are used as article of faith for baptisms that are very much reflected in Guru Granth Sahib in symbolic language. It will be worth mentioning here that wearing of the kakaars is a symbolic acceptance of Guru Sahib's love and way of life. It's an acknowledgement of putting into practice one aspect of the maryada (code of conduct) handed down by the Guru. People however question that if the essence of religion is to love God, then why keep hair. Well if you love someone, and he gives a gift, what do you do with it? Throw it out of the window right in front of him and still say I Love you? Crush it under your feet and still say I love you.
viii) Further, when the foundation of any label is based on discrimination how could its essence merge us with truth – the Akal Purakh who is without discrimination (like sunnat cannot be performed on women and Janeu was not allowed to be worn by shudra lower caste.). Five kakar are for every one.
ix) In addition,  as Gurbani tells us, if circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman? She is the other half of a man’s body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. Thus if Akal Purakh wished one to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself.” - Guru Granth ang.477.17. These values stress that the real religion for all mankind is one. In this way you shall be a true Hindu and Muslim. Generally typical answer for circumcision is given to be cleanliness. Does it mean Akal Purakh was imperfect and prophet Mohammad had to correct. Impossible - Mohammad was a Akal Purakh lover he never could have meant that “NEVER”. He kept saying that I am an imperfect one...and Akal Purakh (Allah) is great. Oh Akal Purakh YOU are GREAT! So how could he perfect the perfection of Akal Purakh? Even in Anjeel or new Testament (book revered by Islam) Jesus talks of circumsention of mind that matter. Sikhe is not hereditary - it has to be earned by each and every person. Our gurus were never insecured and thus never intended for babies to be forced to chhak amrit. This is the beauty behind Sikh revealed baani. Amrit is not a ritual (like circumcision/baptism/janeu etc.) but a serious commitment to a particular life style and ONLY an ADULT can make that CHOICE rationally made voluntarily. It is a basic tenets and counter measure in self-defense to the path of realization committed to the tenets of their faith. And the PERSON goes to seek Amrit in complete submission. Therefore, having Amrit does require some outer inspection and inner inspection of the person. INCREASING the numbers of amritdharees by roping in helpless babies when they cannot make a choice is WRONG in Gurmat what to talk of genocides in case of unwillingness to accept their philosophy. How could one become a good soldier simply by wearing the uniform? No. First of all the army spirit has to be infused in. Then only one feels they have a goal and point of being here. Gurbani tells us ‘Truth is high, but higher still is truthful living’. Further the spread of Sikhi was never dependent on "interpretation of Gurbani". Sikhi spread through the example of those who practiced it -- who lived it, who walked the path. It was always the EXAMPLE of a Sikh, which inspired others to join the fold. That's how the number of Sikhs kept on increasing even when Governor of Lahore had declared a price on the head of a Sikh -- because the exemplary character of Sikhs inspired others onto the Guru's path, even when doing so meant to be on the run from the government of the day. By taking Amrit from Panj Pyaras Guru Gobind Singh ji put us on the same pedestal as he was on. He lowered himself in order to raise us up. WOW. What a Friend!! 
viii) Further circumcision is connected to SEXUAL DESIRE..but a physical act doesnt control the MIND..ALL DESIRES are in fact in the MIND...MODESTY comes from the MIND - not EXTERNAL. IF the MIND is the DEVILS WORKSHOP, and the person is determined to let his desires get the better of him..no amount of "circumcision" ( even Total Bobbit ) is going to make him sleep quietly.
 ix) Islam believe to offer sacrifice of animal while reading holy hymn through the process of ‘halal’ with painful death (In old testament when Abraham (Abram at that time) sacrifices his child at that time his God tells him that kill animal by draining blood out of it as blood is life. Again Moses was also instructed on it. Islam does believe in Halal as Jews. Gurmat disagree that life is in blood and not in flesh. We believe God to be everywhere and not such discrimination based on matter, which is decay able. As God is Same in flesh as in blood so why shed blood) whereas Sikhism believes holy hymns from Guru Granth Sahib or any holy book are to glorify and please God, lead virtuous life and not to recite to kill a frightened and helpless animal. It is inconceivable that the Guru had any such bias, for the validity of other religions is freely accepted in Sikh thought. The Guru had noticed what he considered shortcomings in other faiths, but he seems to suggest that trans-valuation of values is the only right possible answer to the existence of such problems.  Thus one thing is very clear, according to Sikh thought, if we slaughter an animal for eating and recite prayers along with it, that won't save us from our sin or do the animal any favor. In addition Sikhism does not believe to slaughter animal in the name of sacrifice but for survival and that too in case of crisis and not as an addiction and that too with ‘Jhatka’ (one stroke) and not ‘Halal’. I personally do not believe in the unnecessary killing of animals to satisfy our desires, when there are plenty of other resources available for our survival. It may be stated that eating or not eating meat has a religious sanction in all major faiths; for example, Kosher is allowed for Jews, Halal for Muslims, Bali for Hindus (killed in the name of Goddess). Secondly, some religions prohibit meat of certain animals; pork is prohibited for Muslims and Jews, and beef for Hindus. Some prohibit eating meat, or a particular kind of meat, on some days. Sikh faith is unique in not prescribing any such condition for eating meat, if it is needed to meet the hunger of a Sikh. Besides Gurbani suggests three golden rules for healthy life which are scientifically sound, “do not eat or get addicted to that is not pleasing to the body, that gives pain to the body or eat or drink that produce evil in the mind.” - Guru Granth ang.16.14. Addiction, not only to meat, but even to `things' of daily use (spouse, wealth, affluent life, etc.), is prohibited. Therefore the beauty is that the ultimate decision is left to our own individual common sense or what suits us best. In addition a logical question arises that Halal, Kosher or Brahminical rituals associated with food all claim to "purify" food. What does it signify? That man has the power to "purify" what God created. In other words, man can "improve" upon God. 
 x) Unlike interpretation of Islam Sikhs are forbidden to believe that some days or months are auspicious.  When you love and remember God, Gurmat says, it is a good day for you, when you ignore Him it is a bad day.
  xi) Unlike Sikhs who in their daily general and private prayer wish, “Nanak Naam chardhee kala. Terey bhanney Sarbatt da bhalla”, - welfare for the whole humanity irrespective of their religion, Muslims only say, “May peace be upon all Muslim brothers and sisters and may God guide to all Non-Muslim. 
  xii) Muslim believe if we exercise good conduct in this world, we can watch dances of nymphs in the heaven, over here if we do not consume wine, we will get ‘Somras’ in heaven, over here if we donate little, over there we get palaces studded with pearls and diamonds. If you convert someone to your faith you get so and so award (A great Muslim poet and theologist Dr. Mohammand Iqbal lashed out and said, “bahishto houron ghilma evjai taiet mai na manugha eini bbaataon sai vaez jeif emon hota hai - O preacher you have weaken my belief, if by reading holy scripts, praying and good conduct, gets me in paradise where I am promised fairy girls, wine, wealth and property, then even the heaven you have made into a tradeable commodity), Sikh are not looking for converts like vultures fan the skies for dead meat whereas in Sikhism there is no trade-in.
xiii) Guru Nanak has offered no incentives such as nymphs, or houries or wealth etc.  He says, “nanak kai ghar keval naam- Satguru Nanak’s home is filled with only Naam, the Name of God, His lotus feet - the cosmic hymn – the eternal bliss.” - Guru Granth ang.1136.16. 
xiv) And as per Sikhism whosoever irrespective of any profession, caste status, religion have understood that “this human body conferred on us, is our only chance to merge back into God by reciting His glorious virtues from the core of heart, his toil is over to merge back into Him. This bliss is beyond wine, wealth and nymphs.” - Guru Granth ang.12.6, but those who don’t merged back, wander into cycle of reincarnation or suffer as per their deeds.
xv) Since He is TRUTH, which is eternal and forever, Sikhism believes in the eternal Living Guru Granth Sahib for guidance, whereas Islam believes after Mohammad there is no messenger of God.  Muslims believe in entire sentence ‘kalmah’ (la elahaa eel alaah - Mohammad -u- rasul aalah’ whereas Sikh does not relate first half with second half which declares no prophet or apostle will come after Mohammad and no new faith will be born " - Our apostles were our Gurus and now our living Guru Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Inspite of this claim of Islam, a new faith Sikhism was born and which is a reality.
xvi) Islam believe Mohamad is the last messenger and Islam is last religion and no more (prophet)would come again for protecting people at this present age of crime and insecurity?? From this it follows that any new religion or even a new interpretation of religion must be authorized by the evidence already contained in this final and unique act; otherwise, it is a priori errant, a heresy. Whereas in Sikhism. In God’s infinite creation, there is no such thing as the last prophet or the last religion. Sikhism, on the other hand, teaches that the Truth of Religion is ab initio embedded in the heart of man and that its ultimate validity is to be discerned in human experience itself, and not in anything extraneous, though Sikhism admits that there have been, and shall be, extraordinarily gifted persons in whom the Truth of Religion has assumed unusual vividness and thus their revelations and teachings are of immense help to mankind, such as the ten Sikh Prophets, the Gurus.        


xvii) So broad minded and transparent is Sikhism that unlike Islam who forbids non-muslim to their holy place Mecca Sikhism not only permits but have opened doors from all corners so that anyone can come and worship the way he likes. Our Guru tells us, jo sharan avai so kanth lavai whosoever irrespective of religion, caste, race or creed enter His sanctuary, is not only welcome but is hugged.
xviii) Muslim belief the body is made of four elements but gurbani tells us it is five elements and modern science has confirmed it is five and not four elements. (Earth, water, fire, air and fifth is soul, ether or spirit)
 xix) Whereas in Islam music is not permitted even outside of Mosque and considered to be a hindrance to counting the 99 names of Allah and disturb single mindedness, Sikhism believes music along with the their tunes is the vehicle to sing holy hymn which are composed in poetry and musicality adopted and are sung inside the Gurudwara and believes it awakens deeper layers of human heart and consciousness. Keertan is an added bonus because it has a music in it. It encompasses what is otherwise indescribable and incommunicable. Divine wisdom is laced with sweet melodious fragrance by different tunes. This divine melody tunes the soul with Rhythm Eternal. The modern science supports this theory.
xx) Gurmat didn’t agree with the philosophy of resurrection that a judgment day will come when this soul will re-enter the body even after that body is turned into ashes. Gurbani tells us ‘Aapen khail aap kar dekhai, khail sakonchai tau nanak eikai - this all is the show of His sport and He Himself is watching this panorama. When He winds up His _expression then He alone will be left behind.” - Guru Granth ang.292.2. Though Gurmat accepts about winding up the show but conclude then He only will remain, and rejects the concept ‘that all human beings who have lived in the world since its inception will be restored to life and presented before Allah who will judge them on that day upon Absolute Justice. Obviously it is not true. However if you try to make sense in a way that the person who is not religious, his soul is dead in his body and body is graveyard for his soul, and if he follows religion his soul will resurrect in his body. It makes sense.  Gurmat didn’t believe that soul remain standstill when as per the Will, it has continue process until it merges back with God. The Law cannot stop operating at any time. Even the most advance science has proved this point. So Gurmat distanced itself from this concept.
xxi) Gurbani tells us 'manas ki jaat eko pehchanobo' or ek noor tai sabh jagh utrai kon bhalai kon mandhai, whereas teaching of Islam tells us that other than Muslims all are {censored} or malech. Gurbani is about Love, not about hating ur fellow beings Gurbani is about Naam, and focusses ion worship of One True God, NOT some prophet.
xxii) In Islam there is fear of kayamat day (or Judgement Day) and or lobh of wine, houries and or pearl to do noble jobs, but sikh religion is one of the foremost religions that has recognised values of living. It is total surrender with humility to God (Milan di tadap or yearning for union with God and when there is tadap for union where is time for ego) all love which causes one to do noble deeds. IF the DELUSION of DEATH, LIFE, etc is STILL ALIVE in one's mind i.e. kayamat day, how can that person say He is FULLY accepting the Power and Will of ALLAH. On one hand it is said Islam is submission to the will of Allah.....and are still delusioned by Death and Life because of kayamat a fear of cruel harsh punishments in hell.
        xxiii) In Islam women are not permitted to join the congregation whereas Gurbani in line with equal rights to women specially invites them with following versus, “Come my sisters and spiritual companion! Clasp me close in your embrace. Let us join together and tell stories of our All Powerful Spouse (God).” - Guru Granth ang.17.16.  
      xxiv) Islam believes praying on a particular day at Mecca fetches and is equal to hundred thousand prayers whereas Sikhism believes in level of love and devotion and not number of prayers which adds nothing but ego.
      xxv) One of most important ritual of every Muslim is to visit and pray at Mecca once in a life whereas it is not mandatory for Sikhism to pray at their holiest shrine Amritsar. The Har-Mandir Sahib is the most inspirational and significant historical religious centre for Sikhs, but is not a mandatory place of pilgrimage or worship. All places where Sri Guru Granth Sahib is housed and its ‘prakash’ is compiled are considered equally holy for Sikhs and it is the holiest of holy. Gurbani tells us, "harminder eho shareer hai tis vich sachai da vasa – The body is the temple of Akal Purakh, within which He hath locked infinite light and until that truth is not revealed this body is but a heap of urine and filth, nothing more. Gurmat being all love did n't permit a feeling of complex or guilt for those who cannot afford to travel and waste time, money and torturing oneself. As per gurbani God resides in ourselves and we need not go out and get unnecessary tired and fall in the hands of banaras kai thug. Gurbani tells us, “teerath sabd beechar antar gian hai – Real sacred shrine of pilgrimage is enshrining spiritual wisdom within, and contemplation on the Word of the Shabad.” – Guru Granth ang.674.14. 
      xxvi) Muslim bury body and ‘nafis’ (desires) in grave whereas Sikh believe at the time of death soul leaves the body and wander in many incarnation or merged back into Him as per the deeds or His grace,
xxvii) Islam believe Adam and Eve were the first creation, whereas as per gurmat and Sikhism ‘Nobody knows.’ And in one’s spiritual development, this piece of information is of no consequence. …. All tall claims by some that they know as to who was the first human? is nothing but a concoction of fairy tales of empty boastings.xxviii) 1) Muslim believe in fasting that is why they consider Ramadhan a holy month and fast the whole month,, Guru Nanak says mission of mankind on Earth is to earn ‘Dharam’ by nurturing love, day and night from the core of heart while contemplating on His virtues and chanting His Name. How can a devotee by fasting, torturing, sufferings or suppressing appetite concentrate or devote to utter His Naam. Gurbani tells us, ‘bhukhai bhagat na keejai yeh mala apni leejai – with empty stomach no one can perform devotional worship.” – Guru Granth ang.656.13. Gurbani tells us, all these actions are the cause of deviation, thus it is only a hypocrisy. In relation to fasting Gurbani declared it this way, “Chodaih aan karai pakhand na oh suhaghan na o rand ] - one who fasts and discards food during purnmashi, karva choith, naratai, ramadhan, is practicing hypocrisy. He is like a rolling stone and is neither a happy soul-bride, nor a widow.” - Guru Granth ang.873.4. Besides it yields no bonus marks. It is not a mean to wash any sins, it is not a mean to fulfill any of your desires, and it is not a mean to please Akal Purakh or merge into Akal Purakh. We pose to abstain from food outwardly but from inside body suffers in pain and is disturbed with fire of desires. It is hypocrisy. If really eaten less, it stabilizes the agitation in mind. This is what Gurbani advises “Sleep little, and eat little; O learner Nanak, this is the essence of wisdom.” - Guru Granth ang.939.4. Thus Gursikhs are fasting everyday. This process described here does not overload the body and abuse the beautiful machinery/apparatus gifted to us FREE without any effort on our part. Gurbani thus advises instead earn the fruitful rewards by observing the fast of knowing your own self with a pledge not to speak lies at least that day.  Gurbani proclaims, “sach varat santokh keerat gian dhayan isnan, deaya devta kheema japmaal tai manas pradhan* - *the most excellent are those who have truth as their fast, contentment as their sacred shrine of pilgrimage, spiritual wisdom and meditation as their cleansing bath, kindness as their deity, and forgiveness as their chanting beads.” – Guru Granth ang.1245.11.xxx) Whereas Sikhs are the only people in the world who have with   them authenticitic  Divine revelation with them in the language and words in  which the same was received and written by their own prophet whereas qoran was not written by Prophet Mohamd as direct revelation but was written after his death by 2nd umar  upon heresay.xxxi)  As per Islam God said to Adam. ‘Do not eat of the apple’. That is, God was trying to  say to Adam. Stop being inquisitive, you will bring problems upon yourself. And so original sin started for mankind. God simply wanted man to live by some rules it seems. Though people say all religions are same, now look at Gurbani. The guru says come and ‘seek’ but be ready to sacrifice yourself, your ego and your ideas.  A complete contrast. The guru says jo to praem khaelan kaa chaao If you so yearn to explore bonding with the eternal drama  (or, if you want to play this game of love with Me), sier dhhurr talee galee maeree aao step onto My Path with your mind and ego in your alms ( or,  then step into my path with your head in hand).eith maarag pair dhhurreejai  -When you place your feet on this Path, sir dheejai kaan n keejai submit your mind  and forget all other ideas, theories etc, ( Give me your  head, and do not pay attention to public opinion. 

      xxxii) Islam believe when Adam and Eve who were posted in Heaven by God, didn’t obey God’s command, they were sent to earth as a punishment whereas Gurbani propagate there is no physical place called Heaven and mankind is sent to Earth, in a part of His play, to earn ‘Dharma’ and day, night, air, water, seasons etc. are created for the convenience of mankind to enjoy and conveniently earn ‘Dharma’ which facilitate them to ‘swims across’ which means the end of transmigration and the attainment of poise and not a punishment. The soul keeps coming back in different bodies so it can perfect itself to get out of the cycle of birth and death.  Because of the choices we make, we continue to suffer, when we listen to the inner voice to perfect ourselves, we can redeem our soul from the comings and goings.
  xxxiii) Muslims strictly bury dead whereas Sikhism cremates but can bury too in case of crisis. Sikhism is a religion which is open and adaptable . No rigidities in us. No concept like time wrap.
      xxxix) While Islam believe Satan crept into heaven, polluted the Book kept by God(!), which was written in Arabic, so people could understand that God is an Arab? The message is meant for Arabs? Thus everyone should learn Arabic, the sacred language? Gurbani observes that God is beyond language, the Guru Granth uses many languages to explain its message. Gurbani is God Itself, God the Unstruck Melody, Anhad Nad, calling you to unity. There is no question of God being polluted by any evil spirit.
    xxxi) While Gurbani is revealed by the direct inspiration of God, Islamic concept 
of God precludes communication between God and people or the angels.

Sahni Mohinder


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## manbir (Jul 10, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Guru Fateh

Well done Mohinder Singh ji


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 11, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

a very well writtne reply mohinder singh ji. congrats on hard work put in.
Gyani JS


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## max314 (Jul 12, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Yikes...more unsubstantiated arguments from all sides...

"It's white!"

"It's black!"

"It's white!"

"It's *clearly* black!"


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## hps62 (Jul 13, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

dear  brother


May Allah/God/Ram / Jesus / Waheguru  grant you some common sense .
the post is

:down: ,:shutup: ,:}--}: ,:shock: , ,:crazy: ,



May  let  good sense  prevail.


Love

Nank Nam chadi kala  tere bana sarbat  tha bhalla

love
to one and all
hps62


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## kirpal175 (Aug 19, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

_Hello and sat sri akalji my good friend , dont try to tell us in this 21 century, about who is who or who is nabi and prophets is and_
_ things fall on u dont be too sori about yourself, maybe u will get ans after your no more in this world ok that the your q to my ans. bye malaysia._

*Qualities of a Prophet of God *

No one can become a prophet of God by his own choosing or effort; Allah has to choose him to be His prophet. And Allah chooses only such persons who have all the qualities necessary for that role, and He does so at the appropriate time in history, and then He protects His prophets from falling into the kind of errors that do not suit a prophet. 

The first duty that a prophet of God does is to tell his people that he has been appointed a prophet by God to invite people to His way. Thus, a genuine prophet claims to be a prophet of God, though this claim in itself is not enough. But first and foremost, a prophet has to claim himself to be a prophet of God. The people often question this claim and threaten him to give up his claim. They may even offer him all kinds of temptations that ordinary humans would fall for. But the genuine prophets ignore these and go forward with their God-given mission. 

So, the first question you need to ask your Sikh friend is: Did Nanak really claim to be a prophet chosen by God to lead people out of darkness into light? 

If the answer is “no,” tell him that this proves that prophethood was conferred on him by his zealous followers and it is meaningless to continue to argue that Nanak was a prophet. 

If the answer is “yes,” the second question is: Did Nanak approve of the roles of earlier prophets of God, especially the prophet who came just before him, Muhammad (peace be on him)? 

If he says “yes,” ask him then how one can reconcile the fact that Muhammad was the Last Prophet of God and the claim that Nanak was a prophet after the Last Prophet. 

The third question is whether all the Sikhs believe that their holy book, called the Adi Granth, was revealed to Nanak by God. If they say “yes,” ask them whether there is any statement to that effect in the book itself and whether Nanak said that the Adi Granth had been fully revealed to him by God. If the answer is in the affirmative, your Sikh friend has to show the proof that the above statements are true, from the Adi Granth itself. This will not be possible for him to do for the following reasons: 

1. The Adi Granth is a collection of the writings of many Gurus including Nanak. It was in 1604—Nanak died in 1539—that Arjan Dev, one of the ten Gurus, compiled the hymns of Guru Nanak along with the compositions of both Hindu and Muslim holy men like Jaidev, Surdas, Sheikh Farid and Kabir. The compiled book was enshrined by Arjan in the Golden Temple with the name “Adi Granth.” 

2. A prophet of God is a model for all his followers in all aspects of life. But in the case of Sikhism, we find that it was not Guru Nanak, but the tenth Guru, Gobind Singh, who organized the community of Sikhs into a khalsa, “a spiritual brotherhood devoted to purity of thought and action.” He taught his followers to wear long hair (kesh, denoting saintly appearance), underwear (kachha, denoting self-control), an iron bangle (kara, denoting purity in acts), a comb (kangha, denoting cleanliness of mind and body), and a sword (kirpan, denoting fight for a just cause). 

3. Towards the end of his life, the aged Nanak returned home to Punjab and settled down at Kartharpur with his family. People came from far and near to hear his hymns and preaching. After his death, his Hindu followers thought him to be a Hindu and his Muslim followers thought him to be a Muslim. 

From the foregoing, we understand that Guru Nanak was not a prophet of God, but a religious reformer of his times.[/quote]


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## vijaydeep Singh (Aug 20, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh
Hariom Tatsat

Bimillah Al Rahman Ala Raheem.


			
				kirpal175 said:
			
		

> _Hello and sat sri akalji my good friend , dont try to tell us in this 21 century, about who is who or who is nabi and prophets is and_
> _things fall on u dont be too sori about yourself, maybe u will get ans after your no more in this world ok that the your q to my ans. bye malaysia._
> 
> *Qualities of a Prophet of God *
> ...


[/quote]

What das understands is that prophet is one who gives messages via God so is a medium with God to Ummat of creed.

So three things God,Mediotators and Creed in such type of Prophethood.


As far as our Tenth Master is concern he did conceede that Prophet Mohmud(PBUH) was a Rasool and Holy Kuran the word of God.

But as Allah is capable to do all things in for of Khalsa something unprecedneted to holy Kuran Happened.

1. Gurbani is Ihalam ie word of God and not poetray of Hindu,Sikh or Muslim holy guys.

They were one with God and God spoke from within them and auidnace was God only.It is concept of Adavait/non dual/Wahadat Ul Wajood.

In this concept nothing but God only exists.Allah Ho Baki Bin Tule Fani.See Sura 2nd and 5th also.

So when all is seen as God then no need left for form of Prophet.

2. Code was satreted by First Master of Trai Mu8dra of Kachchh Kes Kirpan and Tenth Master only documented it(it is said with that documentation that Tenth Master only followed old Rules).First Master was born as norml Human but Karam or mercy of Allah amde him go to court of Allah via Vien river.

3. Lastly,Only Hindus and Muslims fought for flowers which were said to have left after First Master acended top heavan(uninted with Allah).His Sikhs say like Second Master,was more reamined tied to Guru of First Master ie Sabad Guru or verbal manfestaiojn of Allah.In fact before going to be united with Allah,First Master bowed to Second Master.

Tenth Master also took baprtisme with present Elevnth Master,the Khalsa Panth.As Khalsa or pure we ourslef behold ourself as Guru/Avtar /Prophet and only recongans God/Allah/Ram/Akal.


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## jagamansingh (Aug 24, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Before answering to this Narrow Minded Jinni and his many of his like, obessessed of their preacher, in great Foolishness starts thinking that they are the only custodian of GOD. Please allow me to call them FOOLS whose scope is so limited that in utter ignorance and foolishness they even don’t understand what they are saying and about whome they are writing about ? I don’t understand from where they get all such rubbish, like defining features of PROPHETS. I am sure its through reading cheep books (As this he/she have got from one such ).

I cannot dare to define Prophets as this is far beyond my limits. Their qualities, cannot be traped into words, still few of them on the basis of my mental limitations are
-They have message of GOD.
-How far and to what extent that message havebeen spreaded by them to the Humanity.
-He should not be a prophet merely of a community, creed, race etc but of humanity as a whole.
-He should love the creation of the creator and should bear qualities of LORD (Ram Kabira ek Bhaye hain Koi na Sakeh Pachani) 
Firstly, message NANAK SAHIB had was about one GOD, Equality of mankind, Love, Mutual respect, equality of men-women, and path to meet almighty i.e by naam simran……
‘EK PITA EKAS KE HUM BAAREK’,
‘KOI BOLE RAM RAM KOI KHUDA-E, KOI SAVEA GUSAIYA KOI AALA-E KARAN KARAN KAREEM KIRPA DHAR RAHEEM’ (and infinite number of them).

Secondly, None other prophet in the history of world has covered such wide distance to spread the message of GOD that they have. NOT only in complete India from jammu to kerela and from Gujarat to Assasm, But also to PAKISTHAN, AFGHANISTHAN, SAUDI ARIBIA, MEECA, IRAQ, TIBBET, NEPAL, BANGLADESH, and SRILANKA and that too on his nobel Feets. That is why he is ‘prophet of prophets’.Yes he setteled in Kartarpur during the later years of his life but only after completing the task levied on him, but never did he retire from preaching. Unlike other prophets he did not get fixed at a place enjoying worldly pleasures. That’s why Guru Gobind Sahib says that "even the prophets have to pay the account of their deeds before Almighty".

Thirdly, Yes Nanak Sahib never said that he was son or prophet of Almighty, these were the techiniques used by his preceeders to acknowledge their legitimacy. It sounds strange some one claiming himself that he is the prophet and some even said that they are the last one. Greatness would have been in the fact that the others claim them to be the true prophet of God. Nanak sahib always loved calling himself as a SLAVE(one who have no right of his own) of GOD. This is the greatness of Nanak sahib that except himself every others accept him as True messenger of GOD(He always have reffered himself as NANAK DASS).

Fourthly, Not only Sikhs were followers of Baba NANAK, but also muslims and hindus and where ever he went people followed him. His preaching was for all irrespective of religion, caste and creed. Muslim Sufis had great respect and devotion for NANAK Sahib. He was equally love by all and this is evident from the incident that there was conflict between muslims and hindus over the performance of last rituals of Baba NANAK, each of them claiming him as their prophet. (This is for that jinni, so I advise u to read more and some good and informative literature).

Fifthly, Its important to know by what means faith hasbeen spreaded. Was it at the power of sword or on the basis of principle of merit. History reviels that Islam was spreaded at the point of terror, at the power of sword. All the muslims of afghanisthan, pakisthan, India and central asia were originally budhists but were later converted into muslims not by the reformers,but by the muslim attackers and plunderers who came to these countries for the purpose of looting. If its so then Muhmud ghori and Ghaznavi were more bigger prophets because they have spreaded islam more than Prophet Muhamad. But Sikhism has spreaded only on one principle that is ‘Principle of Merit’. And sikh is the religion that will even further enhance only because of its merit.

Sixthly, All the sikh gurus have continued the guruship only at the name of GURU NANAK SAHIB. Right from Nanak Sahib wearing Kesh have started guru Gobind Singh Sahib institutionalised the teachings of Nanak Sahib. Source of all intellect of Gurus Sahibs was NANAK SAHIB. That is why none used their personal names but preached at the name of NANAK SAHIB.
Seventhly, I think this jinni have not even made sincere reading of ‘Quran’. Had he/she done that he/she had not made that blunder and earning the‘sin’ of refuting the words of her own prophet. Muhamad sabh in Quran complaining to the ALLAH says that "Why he is send 1000 years before, when you(Allah) himself was appearing in the world with the name NANAK". 

Lastly, we even do not believe in the Theory of Last prophet as Guru Gobind Singh Sahib unilaterally rejected it with his true words "Kal Purakh Ki Deh Mo Kotak Bisan Mahesh, Kot Inder Brahma Kite Rav Sas Kot Jaleesh ". There are millions and millions of such prophets within the fold of ALMIGHTY, that’s why he even with all the sikh gurus call themselves ‘DASS’ .

So This is a very mature forum, so here message of peace and love are spreaded, not of the Hatered. Better U come and tell what Quran says about different aspects rather than questioning the legitemacy of Guru Sahibs, that will be more welcomed. But remember Sikhs are equipped with all shastras and bhramastras and have potential to deal situations of every level.

Bhul Chuk di Kshama , 
Wahe Guru ji Ka Khalsa Sri Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh
Dass Guru Sahiban Da

Before answering to this Narrow Minded Jinni and his many of his like, obessessed of their preacher, in great Foolishness starts thinking that they are the only custodian of GOD. Please allow me to call them FOOLS whose scope is so limited that in utter ignorance and foolishness they even don’t understand what they are saying and about whome they are writing about ? I don’t understand from where they get all such rubbish, like defining features of PROPHETS. I am sure its through reading cheep books (As this he/she have got from one such ).
I cannot dare to define Prophets as this is far beyond my limits. Their qualities, cannot be traped into words, still few of them on the basis of my mental limitations are
1.   They have message of GOD.
2.   How far and to what extent that message havebeen spreaded by them to the Humanity.
3.   He should not be a prophet merely of a community, creed, race etc but of humanity as a whole.
4.   He should love the creation of the creator and should have qualities of LORD (Ram Kabira ek Bhaye hain Koi na Sakeh Pachani) 
Firstly, message NANAK SAHIB had was about one GOD, Equality of mankind, Love, Mutual respect, equality of men-women, and path to meet almighty i.e by naam simran……
‘EK PITA EKAS KE HUM BAAREK’,
‘KOI BOLE RAM RAM KOI KHUDA-E, KOI SAVEA GUSAIYA KOI AALA-E KARAN KARAN KAREEM KIRPA DHAR RAHEEM’ (and infinite number of them).

Secondly, None other prophet in the history of world has covered such wide distance to spread the message of GOD that they have. NOT only in complete India from jammu to kerela and from Gujarat to Assasm, But also to PAKISTHAN, AFGHANISTHAN, SAUDI ARIBIA, MEECA, IRAQ, TIBBET, NEPAL, BANGLADESH, and SRILANKA and that too on his nobel Feets. That is why he is ‘prophet of prophets’.Yes he setteled in Kartarpur during the later years of his life but only after completing the task levied on him, but never did he retire from preaching. Unlike other prophets he did not get fixed at a place enjoying worldly pleasures. That’s why Guru Gobind Sahib says that "even the prophets have to pay the account of their deeds before Almighty".

Thirdly, Yes Nanak Sahib never said that he was son or prophet of Almighty, these were the techiniques used by his preceeders to acknowledge their legitimacy. It sounds strange some one claiming himself that he is the prophet and some even said that they are the last one. Greatness would have been in the fact that the others claim them to be the true prophet of God. Nanak sahib always loved calling himself as a SLAVE(one who have no right of his own) of GOD. This is the greatness of Nanak sahib that except himself every others accept him as True messenger of GOD(He always have reffered himself as NANAK DASS).

Fourthly, Not only Sikhs were followers of Baba NANAK, but also muslims and hindus and where ever he went people followed him. His preaching was for all irrespective of religion, caste and creed. Muslim Sufis had great respect and devotion for NANAK Sahib. He was equally love by all and this is evident from the incident that there was conflict between muslims and hindus over the performance of last rituals of Baba NANAK, each of them claiming him as their prophet. (This is for that jinni, so I advise u to read more and some good and informative literature).

Fifthly, Its important to know by what means faith hasbeen spreaded. Was it at the power of sword or on the basis of principle of merit. History reviels that Islam was spreaded at the point of terror, at the power of sword. All the muslims of afghanisthan, pakisthan, India and central asia were originally budhists but were later converted into muslims not by the reformers,but by the muslim attackers and plunderers who came to these countries for the purpose of looting. If its so then Muhmud ghori and Ghaznavi were more bigger prophets because they have spreaded islam more than Prophet Muhamad. But Sikhism has spreaded only on one principle that is ‘Principle of Merit’. And sikh is the religion that will even further enhance only because of its merit.

Sixthly, All the sikh gurus have continued the guruship only at the name of GURU NANAK SAHIB. Right from Nanak Sahib wearing Kesh have started guru Gobind Singh Sahib institutionalised the teachings of Nanak Sahib. Source of all intellect of Gurus Sahibs was NANAK SAHIB. That is why none used their personal names but preached at the name of NANAK SAHIB.

Seventhly, I think this jinni have not even made sincere reading of ‘Quran’. Had he/she done that he/she had not made that blunder and earning the‘sin’ of refuting the words of her own prophet. Muhamad sabh in Quran complaining to the ALLAH says that "Why he is send 1000 years before, when you(Allah) himself was appearing in the world with the name NANAK". 

Lastly, we even do not believe in the Theory of Last prophet as Guru Gobind Singh Sahib unilaterally rejected it with his true words "Kal Purakh Ki Deh Mo Kotak Bisan Mahesh, Kot Inder Brahma Kite Rav Sas Kot Jaleesh ". There are millions and millions of such prophets within the fold of ALMIGHTY, that’s why he even with all the sikh gurus call themselves ‘DASS’.

So This is a very mature forum, so here message of peace and love are spreaded, not of the Hatered. Better U come and tell what Quran says about different aspects rather than questioning the legitemacy of Guru Sahibs, that will be more welcomed. But remember Sikhs are equipped with all shastras and bhramastras and have potential to deal situations of every level. 

Bhul Chuk di Kshama , 
Wahe Guru ji Ka Khalsa Sri Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh
Dass Guru Sahiban Da

Before answering to this Narrow Minded Jinni and his many of his like, obessessed of their preacher, in great Foolishness starts thinking that they are the only custodian of GOD. Please allow me to call them FOOLS whose scope is so limited that in utter ignorance and foolishness they even don’t understand what they are saying and about whome they are writing about ? I don’t understand from where they get all such rubbish, like defining features of PROPHETS. I am sure its through reading cheep books (As this he/she have got from one such ).
I cannot dare to define Prophets as this is far beyond my limits. Their qualities, cannot be traped into words, still few of them on the basis of my mental limitations are
They have message of GOD.
How far and to what extent that message havebeen spreaded by them to the Humanity.
He should not be a prophet merely of a community, creed, race etc but of humanity as a whole.
He should love the creation of the creator and should bear qualities of LORD (Ram Kabira ek Bhaye hain Koi na Sakeh Pachani) 
Firstly, message NANAK SAHIB had was about one GOD, Equality of mankind, Love, Mutual respect, equality of men-women, and path to meet almighty i.e by naam simran……
‘EK PITA EKAS KE HUM BAAREK’,
‘KOI BOLE RAM RAM KOI KHUDA-E, KOI SAVEA GUSAIYA KOI AALA-E KARAN KARAN KAREEM KIRPA DHAR RAHEEM’ (and infinite number of them).

Secondly, None other prophet in the history of world has covered such wide distance to spread the message of GOD that they have. NOT only in complete India from jammu to kerela and from Gujarat to Assasm, But also to PAKISTHAN, AFGHANISTHAN, SAUDI ARIBIA, MEECA, IRAQ, TIBBET, NEPAL, BANGLADESH, and SRILANKA and that too on his nobel Feets. That is why he is ‘prophet of prophets’.Yes he setteled in Kartarpur during the later years of his life but only after completing the task levied on him, but never did he retire from preaching. Unlike other prophets he did not get fixed at a place enjoying worldly pleasures. That’s why Guru Gobind Sahib says that "even the prophets have to pay the account of their deeds before Almighty".

Thirdly, Yes Nanak Sahib never said that he was son or prophet of Almighty, these were the techiniques used by his preceeders to acknowledge their legitimacy. It sounds strange some one claiming himself that he is the prophet and some even said that they are the last one. Greatness would have been in the fact that the others claim them to be the true prophet of God. Nanak sahib always loved calling himself as a SLAVE(one who have no right of his own) of GOD. This is the greatness of Nanak sahib that except himself every others accept him as True messenger of GOD(He always have reffered himself as NANAK DASS).

Fourthly, Not only Sikhs were followers of Baba NANAK, but also muslims and hindus and where ever he went people followed him. His preaching was for all irrespective of religion, caste and creed. Muslim Sufis had great respect and devotion for NANAK Sahib. He was equally love by all and this is evident from the incident that there was conflict between muslims and hindus over the performance of last rituals of Baba NANAK, each of them claiming him as their prophet. (This is for that jinni, so I advise u to read more and some good and informative literature).

Fifthly, Its important to know by what means faith hasbeen spreaded. Was it at the power of sword or on the basis of principle of merit. History reviels that Islam was spreaded at the point of terror, at the power of sword. All the muslims of afghanisthan, pakisthan, India and central asia were originally budhists but were later converted into muslims not by the reformers,but by the muslim attackers and plunderers who came to these countries for the purpose of looting. If its so then Muhmud ghori and Ghaznavi were more bigger prophets because they have spreaded islam more than Prophet Muhamad. But Sikhism has spreaded only on one principle that is ‘Principle of Merit’. And sikh is the religion that will even further enhance only because of its merit.

Sixthly, All the sikh gurus have continued the guruship only at the name of GURU NANAK SAHIB. Right from Nanak Sahib wearing Kesh have started guru Gobind Singh Sahib institutionalised the teachings of Nanak Sahib. Source of all intellect of Gurus Sahibs was NANAK SAHIB. That is why none used their personal names but preached at the name of NANAK SAHIB.

Seventhly, I think this jinni have not even made sincere reading of ‘Quran’. Had he/she done that he/she had not made that blunder and earning the‘sin’ of refuting the words of her own prophet. Muhamad sabh in Quran complaining to the ALLAH says that "Why he is send 1000 years before, when you(Allah) himself was appearing in the world with the name NANAK". 

Lastly, we even do not believe in the Theory of Last prophet as Guru Gobind Singh Sahib unilaterally rejected it with his true words "Kal Purakh Ki Deh Mo Kotak Bisan Mahesh, Kot Inder Brahma Kite Rav Sas Kot Jaleesh ". There are millions and millions of such prophets within the fold of ALMIGHTY, that’s why he even with all the sikh gurus call themselves ‘DASS’ .

So This is a very mature forum, so here message of peace and love are spreaded, not of the Hatered. Better U come and tell what Quran says about different aspects rather than questioning the legitemacy of Guru Sahibs, that will be more welcomed. But remember Sikhs are equipped with all shastras and bhramastras and have potential to deal situations of every level. 

Bhul Chuk di Kshama , 
Wahe Guru ji Ka Khalsa Sri Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh
Dass Guru Sahiban Da


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 26, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

THANK YOU jagaman Singh Ji.....for a well written reply. Guru nanak Ji's "Greatness" is NOT DIMINISHED..if we call Him "names"..and His Greatness is NOT "Added to" if we call Him..Prophet of Prophets...Khan hau SULTAN kahu haun MIAAN  teri Kaban vadayee..Just Like the Greatness of GOD is not diminished if we call him anything' god" etc  we like or added to if we call him almighty/great/etc etc

Sabh te wadda satgur...is WAHEGURU/GOD/ALLAH/RAAM/YEHOVAH..and the Greatness of Guru nanak as HIS "SLAVE" shines as a billion trillion suns in the SKY for all to see forever.. Guurs never claimed to be prophets, godmen,.sons, or last and only prophets etc etc..just slaves, kookars (dogs of God), servants...of the Almighty...

Jarnail Singh Gyani Arshi


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## corrado100 (Sep 7, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*



			
				jinni said:
			
		

> Sikhs do call, Guru Nanak as their Prophet. Which is wrong, becos hazrat Muhammad [SAW]was the last prophet, and all others who claim to be one, are hypocrites and false prophet.
> 
> Guru Nanak was no Prophet just reformer, it would be clear by reading the fowlling.
> 
> ...


 
Please grow up for GODS sake and stop all this JIHAD nonsence.

Please grow up and stop this JIHAD nonsence.

God Bless.


----------



## singh007 (Oct 3, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

why do the administrator of the site let such rubbish get published?
have you tried leaving retro respective view on islam on a islamic site.....no Chance.
What can mohmud off the world... who took a 7-8 year old girl into his bed, we have Laws aginst this kind of behaviour......... you all are playing with FIRE


----------



## manbir (Oct 4, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Mohammd's teaching has only given destruction to the human being. Wherever He went he used barbaric means to spread his teachings. Islam has gven nothing but slavery to the women. It has made life a living hell for its followers. 

Yes Pope is right in saying that Islam has not given anything constructive to the humanity. It continues to spread FIRE and HATE all over the Earth.

Yes, imagin a 50 yr. old man taking a child of 6 yrs as his wife and taking her to bed when she is 9 yrs old !!!
How can you expect such a soul to  bring  heaven on this earth? Such a person cannot be a messenger of God. He was a con man.
Just imagin, He killed a whole tribe of jews and killed all the males and took the most beautiful young female as his wife. 

Imagine he takes  to bed a female  on the same day he gets all her near relatives killed !!!!!!!  SHAME   SHAME


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## jaga (Oct 4, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

i hate muslims, if you had the balls to say this to my face i would cut your head off.

down here in van WE (sikhs) run things.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 4, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Gurfateh

Gurmat teaches us no to hate any one.But to oppose idelogical wrongs inerpolated or intepreted.


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## reena_uk (Oct 6, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

sas sri akal

i would just like to say to the 19 year old muslim boy who thinks he knows it all, that this is a sikh room, for us sikh people, so why dont he go else where and try and convert people cause it wont here.

so stop contridicting sikhism and first go and find out about islam then come back.


----------



## kaur-1 (Oct 6, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*



manbir said:


> Mr Jinni
> 
> Do you know that Prophet Mohammad was engaged to Aisha when she was *a CHILD - 6 yrs old* and Prophet Mohammad was *50 yrs Old*.
> 
> ...



This delusional musla should watch the BBC4 program  "prostitution behind the veil" *A film by Nahid Persson

*"_Prostitution          Behind the Veil_ explores the lives of two Iranian prostitutes in an          uncompromising but sympathetic manner. This cutting-edge film illustrates          how prostitution functions in a country where it is banned and where adultery          sometimes results in capital punishment.  Minna and Fariba, who are good friends, have to make money to support          both their children and their drug habits. They find male customers on          the streets and have the dilemma of whether to bring their children along          with them when they have sex with various men, or to leave the children          alone at home. They describe their middle class backgrounds and how mendacious          men and drugs led them into prostitution. 
*Men in Iran can find a way to buy sex and still comply with Muslim law          by way of "Sighe," a temporary marriage legal in Shia Islam. A Sighe marriage          can last from two hours up to 99 years.* Both Minna and Fariba participate          in this pseudo-marriage with many of their customers . This is a heartfelt          film by the director who fled Iran twenty years ago. She was horrified          by the widespread prostitution and the huge drug problem."

*The worst thing was that they even declared nine year old girls as a women!. *


*NEVER EVER TRUST A MUSLIM!.  

They have a legacy of MURDERERS i.e. innocent men, women, children, babies, Saints and  Guru killers! 

And they want to convert the whole world into their religion. They are BESHARAM's (ie have no shame!)

Almost all of them have a warped mentality about GOD.

*Unfortunately like *HITLER*, you have plenty of "brainwashed" human souls ready to follow them.

Thank Waheguroo, there are some of these "brainwashed" individuals that have "woken" up with Waheguroo's kirpa and realised their mistake in time.


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## jaga (Oct 7, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

^^^^ well done !!!... 

like i always say ,.. kill 'em all and let the guru's sort 'em out.


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## kaur-1 (Oct 7, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*



jaga said:


> ^^^^ well done !!!...
> 
> like i always say ,.. kill 'em all and let the guru's sort 'em out.



Veerji, I dont think we should say "kill em all". We will be lowering ourself to their standard! We are not terrorist! But you are right to ask Waheguru to sort them out.


----------



## akshay (Oct 8, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

i think that you are completly wrong you do not know what you are talking about you are thick


----------



## akshay (Oct 8, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

kaur-1, i agree very strongly with you and i believe that you are very clever. the points you make are very good. please could you give me some more advice. i believe that you know lots about muslims and that they are making very wrong decisions in life.


----------



## akshay (Oct 8, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

jinni you are very stupid as you are a paki. you will not brainwash us or convert us. you are just a stupid paki. reena you are very right in what you are saying muslims cannot convert us sikhs.


----------



## charanjeet2003 (Oct 8, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

I just read your reply. Panth needs intelectual persons  like you, your answers are logical. 
 But make it sure that respect the every saint, Finatic people misinterpret the saint sayings to prove their religion best, but make it sure that respect the every saint as in "SUKHMANI SAHIB, SANT KA NINDAK..........".


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## cool_1951 (Oct 14, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

*Thank You. U R right. Sir*


----------



## cool_1951 (Oct 14, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*



akshay said:


> jinni you are very stupid as you are a paki. you will not brainwash us or convert us. you are just a stupid paki. reena you are very right in what you are saying muslims cannot convert us sikhs.


*You will do good to ignore him.*


----------



## gurinder pal singh (Oct 15, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

dear brother and sisters

i wuld like to ask my all muslim brothers can you please tel me if Nanak is not a prophet, tel me when nanak was in your holy mecca what happen there when Nanak was sleeping with his feets towards holy Mecca.

i can give you many such things which people like you cant able to answere. do your homework and give me answer of my above question you MUSLIM AND JINNI...


----------



## kaur (Oct 27, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Hi,

Without getting into too much debate, we Sikhs have a different paradigm than the Judeo-Christian-Islamist one.  Comparing our culture to yours does not follow one-to-one.  

Basically, a good analogy would be someone who believes in Zeus and the Greek Pantheon, using that framework to enter into offensive discussion about Zen Shinto philosophy.  These are different pardadigms and frameworks.

Regardless, one should maintain respect of diversity of belief.  Please do not attack others.  Do not use your belief platform (which we respect) as a basis from which to malign others.

I truly find this entire line of reasoning disrespectful, immature, and offensive.  

Thankyou


----------



## kaur (Oct 27, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Hello again,

I wanted to add a little bit more on the differences between our religions, (in a respectful manner).  It is a disservice to your religion and ours to confuse terminology.

For clarification, Sikhs do not believe in the (Judeo-Christian-Islamic) framework of angels, demons, the Devil, Heaven, Hell, Satan, Abraham, apocalypse, etc.  I believe in tolerance, and as such if someone believes in eternal damnation, stories of Gabriel, or Allah, that is their right and it is something that I respect- a person's right to their own beliefs.  

Our spiritual teachers (Gurus) have declared themselves simple men- no different from any other, and definetly not apart of your mythology, or your teachings.  Assigning the title of prophet to our Guru    is more than a simple incorrect confusion.  It detracts from our right to believe in our own framework- which does not include in a belief of prophets and all the rest.

I make a point of this, because the greater issue here is tolerance.  By blurring the distinction between our traditions, you commit the greater error of intolerance.    Part of our framework and beliefs is tolerance and respect.  These are not buzzwords but ways of living that tangibly enrich lives; I would never want to stray far from them.

Thankyou


----------



## manbir (Oct 28, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

It is a basic right of humanity to think differently. And it is also basic to Sikhism. 
Our Gurus taught us to respect others' belief and taught us to be prepared to sacrifice yourself for this.


----------



## ratandeep_2102 (Dec 30, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

see whose so ever who has done this comparison     has not seen both of them & saying anything would be like having a fantasy or he is having illusions & he not in good mental health .


----------



## kaur-1 (Dec 30, 2006)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

*From http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-philosophy/14610-answers-to-muslim-questions.html*


The website     Welcome to Sikhs2Islam has posted a list of questions to Sikhs about so-called “flaws” in the Sikh religion. For believing Sikhs this is of course an absurdity as Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee, the word of God, tells us:

_“There is only one true Dharma (faith).  Gurmat (Sikhism) is complete and perfect through the ages.”  
(Ang 1188)_

Through this attempt to answer the questions posed, we will show that Gurmat is indeed the perfect and eternal faith. The website has the motto “you can’t hide from the truth forever.” Indeed, the truth is that Gurmat is the only complete path and this truth is one that cannot be denied.


*1. Is Guru Nanak a False Prophet?*

In the list of questions the writer makes the assertion,_“According to Sikh Scriptures (more of which later), he had “millions” of followers.”_​Which Sikh Scriptures claims that he had millions of followers? The absolute absurdity of this article is that the writer is completely unfamiliar with basic Sikh tenets and principles. Sikh scripture is limited to the following: Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee, sacred writings and literature written by Guru Gobind Singh jee, Works of Bhai Gurdas and the works of Bhai Nand Lal Singh. Beyond this are non-scriptural texts that are useful for historical study but not permitted to be sung as scripture in the Gurdwara. These non-scriptural sources are only accepted so far as they coincide with Gurbani. These texts include Rehitnamas, Tankhanama, Janamsakhis, and historical texts like Gurbilas, Panth Parkash, Suraj Parkash, etc. 

I think the issue here lies with the question of “prophethood”. Guru Nanak Sahib jee was a Satguru. This is MUCH more than a simple prophet. A prophet by default is one who has the ability to reveal prophecies. According to Muslims, Muhammed had the Koran revealed to him through the angel Gabriel. Satguru receives revelations directly from God. Satguru Nanak Sahib jee was called to God’s court and ordered to reveal the divine Naam to the world. It is written clearly in Sri Guru Granth Sahib:
_“Vaheguru gave me His Hukam (Order) to sing His Praises day and night. Vaheguru, my Lord and Master summoned me, His minstrel, to the True Mansion of His Presence. (Vaheguru,) the Image of True Praise and Glory, gave me the Siropaao, robe of honour. The spiritual-life giving Name, Amrit Naam, the True Name, which gives eternal spiritual life, has become my food [sustenance].” 
(Ang 150)_

As Satguru, Guru Nanak spoke DIRECT revelations from God and did not use any middle-party like Muhammed. Guru Nanak makes this clear when he says:

_"O  Lalo! As the Lord’s word comes to me so I deliver it." 
(Ang 722)_

There are numerous references like this in Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee.  Another example is:  

_"I myself know not what to say; all I speak is what the Lord commands." 
(Ang 763)_


You have supplied a quote attributed to Guru Nanak Sahib jee _“There is no Muslim, there is no Hindu.”_  This is not found ANYWHERE in Sikh scripture.  The closest that can be found is _“Neither am I Hindu nor Muslim” (Ang 1136).  _


The article further says,_When a person claims Prophethood, this claim must then be verified. Prophets throughout history have brought miracles to demonstrate to their people (Moses, Abraham, David, and Others, may peace be upon them all). For example Moses spilt the Red Sea, David was able to melt metal in his hands, and Abraham was able to withstand fire. These miracles have been verified both through scriptures and through science. _​I would be interested in knowing how these so-called miracles were verified through science? Were there scientific studies carried out on the veracity of these miracles when they were carried out? Spiritual powers, otherwise known as “ridhi sidhis” are very common in the Indic tradition. Anyone who meditates does gain certain power. The Sikh Gurus however told the Sikhs to shun their use. Miracles that take place by the will of God and by his order are however accepted. 

_“That alone is spirituality, and that alone is miraculous power, which the Lord spontaneously bestows.” 
(Ang 633)_

There have been countless such miracles attributed to the Sikh Gurus and their proof exists even today in local legend and physical evidence. In Hasan Abdal, Pakistan there exists to this day a massive boulder with the palm print of Guru Nanak Sahib jee. This boulder was rolled down on him by Wali Kandhari and was stopped with one hand. A spring of water also created by Guru Nanak Sahib jee still flows there today. Countless similar miracles attributed to the Gurus are recorded and their evidence still exists all across South Asia.

Even in Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee, the coming of Babar (the Mughal invader) and the eventual defeat of the Mughals is prophesied by Guru Nanak Sahib jee and proven to have been absolutely correct.

_“Coming in seventy-eight (1521 C.E.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 C.E.), and then another brave man will rise up. Nanak speaks the Word of Truth; he proclaims the Truth at this for it is now the time for truth ||2||3||5||” 
(Ang 723)_

The fact is however Sikhism rejects just miracles as proof of divinity or “prophethood”. Miracles are a cheap way of winning support from people. The true miracle is changing the self-centered mind to become God-centered and invoking the love of God in people. Guru Nanak Sahib jee made murderers, cannibals, thugs, and bandits become Godly through piercing their hearts with love and the power of Naam and Baani. Even magicians or tricksters can perform so-called miracles (e.g. David Blain).


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## Ambi (Jan 22, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

firstly can i say, well done with the reply babbarshehr and secondly i'd like to say to the muslim partaker that what is the need to start undermining other peoples teachers/prophets, whatever you are all disputing?? isnt Islam about peace and respect of all religions? our Guru's taught us to respect those around us, who may not share the same religion as our brothers and sisters, as inevitably we all believe in the same 1 GOD. Our Guru ji and your prophets illustrated the way forward through peaceful means and co-operation. what is the need to stir up racial hate on a site which is promoting one-ness? come on, whoever you are, please have a sense of maturity and in fact respect your own religions teachings along with our own.

if i say anything out of place, its because i don't see the need for racial tension, when theres enough happening in the world which are much bigger than the tension between two similar religions preaching one-ness and helping lead the way to spiritual enlightenment!!!


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## dpcpress (Jan 22, 2007)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

One who understands Nanak' Message, will be free from hell of blind faith and false illusion. Will see only truth; and Will arise above bashing other religions and religious wars will be history.  There is no prophet.  There is only God and one God for everyone.  Ek Onkar.


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## Amerjit S Ghataorre (Jan 22, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Interesting school of thought. The basic terms used to describe Nanak Ji is Guru, which means Teacher / Guider. Guru Nanak never professed to be a prophet and in all his teachings his message is to join with the almighty. He is but an instrument / teacher.

The concept of Khalsa and Sikhism as prescribed and formd by Guru Gobind Sing Ji is a later evoltion or form of a religion now called sikhism.

I guess the debate is floored, as the basic terms used to describe Nanak i.e. Guru make not atribution to Phropet.


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## nimana17 (Jan 22, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Akal sahai
            I have read all these coments regarding Sri Guru Nanak Sahib jee. I Have few points to discuss
 1) That its true that Guru Jee Is not a prophet
 2) That He is not a Vishnu avtar .(as neutral said)
 3)He came here to  directly connect people with God , with help of pimps (,like Pundits and molvies,mullahs)
 4. Prophet is a incomplete, But not Nanak,
    Quran  says there are only 7  heavens , but Gur Nanak  showed  a  Molvy's son in bagadad that there is no limit,  Lakh Aakasan aakas,Lakh Paatalan Pataal.
  So my humble request to every body is that please  do mix Guru Nanak  with Hindu  or muslims , coz  Sikhs are a  seperate Qoum.
 Thanx , love and respect all the Religions and races , everybody is equal.


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## FiveLovedOnes (Jun 10, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

*:advocate:Hazaarat Mohamad was an incomplete man with incomplete knowledge of god n his creation n no knowledge of future events.He couldn't tell truth of this universe that there exists millions of earths like ours to his muslim followers.So Nanak made muslims realise this by personally going to mecca n then taking son of a phir with him to roam the universe n made him see the truth by himself that millions such earths exists in this universe that mohamaad failed to tell.This incident shows that Mohamad was incomplete in knowledge n guidance to his people n so there r so many problems among muslims-shia n sunni n his teachings caused hatred among people of other religion n poor tolerance towards people from other religions as till today.
Mohamaad is no compare to Guru Nank Dev Ji who gave complete knowledge of God n this Universe as a whole.So Nanak Is complete Prophet n not Mahamaad.Mohamaad teachings caused ambiguities among his own people n spread hatred with other communities as their history is clear evidence of it.They came to India n forcibly converted people to muslims which is the result of incomplete n improper guidance by mohamaad.

After all this I would not even say that Mohamaad was not a prophet at all.He was a simple man who gained some divine knowledge from some sufi saints n turned himself into prophet n treated himself as prophet in people's eyes n mislead people on wrong path.Even today muslims have poor tolerance n they strongly believe in conversion to their religion n they consider that their religion is superior of all others n Ego haunts them days n nights.They think that they r clean by doing roojas n offering five times namaj.Very wrong.Nothing works till one works on self improvement n conquerering his own mind n turns himself the lowest with no ego.Example Sheik Farid ji who truely met God by self surrendering n leaving all his ego n treated everyone same.this is true muslim teachings.So Mohamaad was not a prophet at all in true sense.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji met the god n obtained divine knowledge n started spreading the message of brotherhood n spread truth of god n his divinity.So Guru Nanak Dev Ji is the only true Guru n True prophet of the past n today n of future.
Not Mahamaad with incomplete knowledge who didn't knew that more Prophets will come in future.So this clearly shows that he was a simple man n not a prophet becoz if he were a prophet he would have known the truth. 
SAT SHRI AKAL.*


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## Khalsa1699 (Jul 8, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

I give you text from few NON-SIKH sources about the Sikhs so that so called Muslims on this Forum don’t accuse of text from Sikh Sources being exaggerated 

Banda’s heroic stand won admiration from his enemies as well, the contemporary historian Kamwar Khan wrote: “It is known to everyone that the late Emperor Bahadur Shah, with 4 royal princes and numerous generals, had made efforts to repress this rebellion, but it was all fruitless. It was by the grace of God and not by wisdom or bravery that this came to happen that Banda and a few thousand of his companions have been starved into surrender(Mohammed Hadi Kamwar Khan, Tazkira-us-Salatin Chugjtiya, Page 179)
The English Adventurer George Thomas states in his memoirs: “Instances indeed have not infrequently occurred, in which Sikh women have actually taken up arms to defend their habitations from the desultory attacks of the enemy, and throughout the contest behaved themselves with an intrepidity of spirit, highly praiseworthy.” (Page 75)
A Punjabi doggerel expresses Sikh sentiment at the time
Mir Mannu is our sickle,
We the fodder for him to mow,
The more he reaps, the more we grow. (Aliuddin, Ibrat Nama, iii a)

“Although the Sikhs made their Afghan prisoners clean the Harimandir and retaliated by slaying hogs in mosques, they did not massacre any captives, as the Afghans had done. “The Sikhs”, writes Forster, “set a bound to the impulse of revenge, and though the Afghan massacre and persecution must have been deeply imprinted on their minds, they did not destroy one prisoner in cold blood”. (Ibid. P 279)
Nur Mohammad is full of vile abuse of the Sikhs *BUT EVEN HE IS CONSTRAINED TO PAY THEM TRIBUTE AS MEN OF CHARACTER. *“In no case would they slay a coward, nor would they put an obstacle in the way of a fugitive. They do not plunder the wealth and ornaments of a woman, be she a well-to-do lady or a maid-servant. There is no adultery among these, nor are these mischievous people given to thieving. Whether a woman is young or old, they call her _buriya_ (An old lady) and ask her to get out of the way. There is no thief at all among these, nor is there any house-breaker born among these miscreants. They do not make friends with adulterers and house-breakers. (Jang Name, Page 156-159)
Now it is evident for any wise and educated person that how could followers of such a faith which infused in them a high spirit, impeccable character of the time, right of self defence, no adultery, no house breaking, god loving, respect human rights can be followers of ‘False Prophet’.

And at the same time, it is evident that what should be to say about the so called ‘True Prophets’ of such a religion whose followers have nothing in them but cruelty, no respect of human rights, kill people in cold blood and had always done so since the recorded history, have character of lowest being, no respect for females, have nothing but blind ego.

*WE ARE LUCKY TO HAVE FATHER LIKE GURU GOBIND SINGH TO INFUSE IN US SUCH A SPIRIT TO FIGHT AGAINST SUCH TYRANTS TO PROTECT OURSELEVS AGAINST THE FORCEFUL CONVERSION INTO SUCH A FALSE, DOUBLE STANDARD RELIGION WHERE WE FIND FOLLOWERS FULL OF LOOSE CHARACTER.*

*AND THIS SPIRIT MADE SIKHS/KHALSA OVERSCOME 2 HOLCASTS AND YET PREVAIL THEMSELVES. FOLLOWERS OF ‘FALSE PROHET’ CAN’T ACHIEVE WHAT SIKHS/KHALSA HAS ACHIEVED.*

*LOOK AT THE PATHANS (AFGANISTAN), NOT A BRICK THERE HAS BEEN SURVIVED. THESE ARE THE SAME PATHANS WHO RAN OVER INDIA IN GENERAL AND PUNJAB IN PARTICULAR IN THEIR QUEST TO LOOT MONEY AND FORECFUL CONVERSIONS INTO ISLAM. WHERE DOES AFGANISTAND STAND TODAY?*

*THEN LOOK AT TURKS (MIDLLE EAST), WHERE THE LOOT HAS GONE AND DESPITE OF HAVING HUGE PILES OF OIL STOCK THERE ARE JUST PUPPETS PALYING IN THE HANDS OF WESTREN COUNTRIES, US IN GENERAL.*

*THEY ARE INTO SUCH A CONDITION BECAUSE THEY ARE INHERITING THE WORST DEEDS OF THEIR FORE FATHERS.*

*NOW LOOK AT SIKHS WHO THEY WANTED TO EXTERMINATE ALL TOGETHER AND WANTED NOT EVEN A SINGLE SIKH/KHALSA TO BE LEFT ALIVE, THEY FORM THE 5TH LARGEST RELIGION OF THE WORLD TODAY DESPITE OF 2 HOLOCASTS, ONE OF THE MOST PRESPORORUS RELIGION, HARD WORKING, GOD LOVING, PREVALIED EVEN AT THE WORST OF TIME, ALL OVER THE WORLD. THEY ARE INHERITING THE GOOD DEEDS OF THEIR FOREFATHERS. *

*ALL THIS CAN HAPPEN ONLY BY THE GRACE OF GOD AND NO PATHAN, TURK OR SO CALLED ISLAMIC FANATIC CAN STOP THOSE PROGRESSING WHO FOLLOWS ‘TRUE RELGION’ FOUNDED BY ‘TRUE PROPHET’ WHO TAUGHT NOTHING BUT ‘TRUTH’. *


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## Amritdhari_grl (Jul 24, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Ok, first off Guru Nanak Dev Ji wasn't a prophet HE WAS SOOOOO MUCH MORE. Guru Nanak Dev ji was much.much,much,much more than a prophet and he started a WHOLE NEW religion so that oviously means that he wasn't just a "reformer" as Jinni siad earlier. Guru Nanak Dev ji taught us how to live properly and join with God. A man who does this is not just a reformer, he's a teacher, a holy teacher. So much more than a prophet. Just because Mohammed was "the last phrophet" doesn't mean that Guru Nanak Dev Ji is a false prophet. I think Guru Nanak Dev Ji was truely the last Prophet. (even though he was so much more than just a prophet.):}{}{}:


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## clarkejoey (Oct 9, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

I find these arguments impossible.

How can you discuss one faith from the standpoint of another faith?

From the Christian perspective, the canon was closed in 312AD, so Muhammad has got to be too late.

From the Muslim standpoint, everything we need to know was revealed in the 600's - 700's.

Jews believe they were picked 5,000 years ago, and that's that.

As far as the Hindus are concerned, everybody since the 1500's BC has been gilding the lily.

And Rastafarians think everybody's been believing lies.

It's impossible to have this discussion. It's always going to end up with: "My book says A"; "Well, MY book says B."

As i read the Guru, all these folks are perfectly entitled to believe the way they feel is right, since presumably, they are all reaching for the One Lord.

Clearly, Muhammad is a false prophet to Christians, and Jesus is a false prophet to Jews. But it seems like a trivial argument to me. Instead ask: whose followers are trying to make a better world?

All of us, i hope!


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## Sathanuman Singh (Oct 9, 2007)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

This is a silly intellectual discussion with lots of emotion. Guru Nanak is the only enlightened teacher who has the title Siri Guru! Nanak means - humility, literally "NO-EGO"- Na- Nak.
He nether proclaimed he was a Messiah nor Prophet. He ended his Shabds with  humble, serf, slave Nanak. His mind was in eternal contemplation of the NAAM- The Word! He had two friends-Mardana, a Muslim and Bala, an Hindu who recorded his experiences and hymns. All 9 Guru's that followed have the same consiousness of Siri Guru. The 10th has the same humility and devotion. They recognized Isa, Musa, Mohammed, Ram, Krishna, but laid no importance to these saints. The Truth was high, but truthful living was higher.  Its not the man but the teaching we should honor. Siri Guru Gobind Singh saw his father give his life to the Mughal (fanatic, dogmatic, ruthless Muslim) emporer (Aurangzeb) for Hindus, not Sikhs, 
The Naam is the reason they came. Not prophesies and miracles. The reawakened Dharma and showed mankind how to stop the cylce of birth, death and rebirth.
The Siri Guru Granth  Sahib is revered and worshiped as the "Living Guru", not a book like the Torah, Bible and Koran. There is no comparison, period.
All are welcome in the Guru's Darbar (Court) regardless of gender, color, religion. Siri Guru Nanak left of path of living not dogma and emotions. 
Nanak Nam, Cherdi Kala, Teri Bani Sarbat Bala! 
Through Nanak, May Thy NAME forever increase and the Spirit be exalted and may all prosper by Thy Grace!


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## Sathanuman Singh (Oct 15, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

NANAK means: NA (without/NO); NAK (EGO)
NO Ego is Nanak Bedis true identity. He always signs his Banis with "Humble Nanak, Slave Nanak, Servant//Serf Nanak. Guru Nanak is the positive projective mind of Truth


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## TGill (Oct 16, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Hi Sathanuman ji

Thanks for such lucid views. It was pleasure reading your post.
I totally agree with what you said and it is really sad to see such stupid discussions happening.

Not sure why people are so hell bent to find truth everywhere else except within themselves. It is funny at the same time to see how people find stupid arguments to discuss even the inexaplainable !


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## Archived_member2 (Oct 16, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and TGill Jee!

Quote "Not sure why people are so hell bent to find truth everywhere else except within themselves."
Thanks for coming out from within to give this message. Should all now go within and leave the Sikh-philosophy dot net forum? Please guide them.

Quote "It is funny at the same time to see how people find stupid arguments to discuss even the inexaplainable !"
Better put this question to the true Gurus. What have they been discussing with Siddhas, for example?

**************

Ignorance is falling in discussions with ignorant. Therefore, singing truth is better.
One may ask a fanatic the material of the stick he is holding in hands. He may start cursing because people do not know God.

Why Sikhs bother when Muslims do not know Guru Naanak Jee? A true Sikh can visit Mecca and spread God's Wisdom to Muslims and others in the world.


Balbir Singh


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## kds1980 (Oct 16, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

[Why Sikhs bother when Muslims do not know Guru Naanak Jee? A true Sikh can visit Mecca and spread God's Wisdom to Muslims and others in the world.]

what is the defination of true sikh according to you balbir ji?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Oct 19, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

what is the difference between two human beings?


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## kds1980 (Oct 19, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*



amarsanghera said:


> what is the difference between two human beings?



In this physical world there are plenty of differences between human beings.some are born with every thing like born in wealthy family,good education good personality,good IQ,good upbinging etc while others got nothing.
One of the biggest fact is that our lives not in our control.we don't decide in which home we are going to take birth,what will be our upbringing.so in this physical world we all are 
different.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Oct 20, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

all material



nice try KDS veer


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## Randip Singh (Oct 20, 2007)

*Re: Guru Nanak was a 'false' Prophet ??*

my thinking is Sikh philosophy is outside the narrow constraints of Semitic terminoligy....and any religion for that matter.


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## Rakshit_patil (Nov 19, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*



BabbarSher said:


> Jinni:
> 
> 
> Sikhs do call, Guru Nanak as their Prophet. Which is wrong, becos hazrat Muhammad [SAW]was the last prophet, and all others who claim to be one, are hypocrites and false prophet.
> ...


Sat Shree Akal..
Brother ur answer is excellent..But believe me thus narrow minded converted muslims has not guts to think logically..

But ur reply was superb...
God Bless u.


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## harsimiritkaur (Nov 25, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

The ultimate prophet is God Himself. Humans are only called prophet because their goal is to encourage people to change their views to live truthful. There are different types of prophets. Ro'eh, Nagid, Navi, Tsofeh, and Yode'. Human prophets observe the grace of God communicating with us via His creation. We don't realize it, because we are engrossed in maya or materialist, controlled by our five vices. Mam sar mooey Azraeel garifteh, dil heych na dani." The angle of death has grabbed the hair of my head(meaning my time of death is coming), but I am not aware. Rag Tilang M 1 ghar 1 ang 721. This is Guru Nanak's shabad in Farsi language. People are too much concerned about who is and who is not a prophet. Just listen to the word of God in all of creation testifying of His stable hukam. If you study Guru Granth Sahib, focus is not on the writers, but on God and hukam. Guru names and writers of the hymns are also recorded for historical purposes to prevent plagerism, and it is custome in Punjabi poetry of that time for the composer to include his name in the text. When you realize God, you don't worry about who is or not a prophet, because all eyes should be on God, not on a prophet distraction to pull you away from God. Look, Guru Nanaks' birthday everyone gets so excited about how great he was. If they are so impressed with Guru Nanak, why don't they study his hymns for the deep meanings? Likewise, many Moslems worship Mohamad and read Koran, but rare are those that study the meanings. both Sikhs and Moslems emphasis reading, why not emphasize understanding? Why do Sikhs and Moslems have to pick on each other to try to prove that their faith is superior. Sikhism is not a faith of blindness, but of belief in things unseen by the naked eye. Faith in the power of nature governed by almighty God. To understand reality the way it truly is, not the way our ego misleads us to or the way of ignorance not knowing any better. I do not judge anyone, but ignorance is no excuse for lack of being happy, healthy, and successful.


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## HS Kalsy (Nov 26, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Mr Jinni,
            It appears from ur lack of knowledge abt Guru Nanak that ur are born false.

HS Kalsy


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## Astroboy (Nov 26, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*



HS Kalsy said:


> Mr Jinni,
> It appears from ur lack of knowledge abt Guru Nanak that ur are born false.
> 
> HS Kalsy


 
I think Jinni's purpose for visiting this forum was to start a bonn fire. I agree with HS Kalsy that he lacks the knowledge.


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## Astroboy (Nov 26, 2007)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*



harsimiritkaur said:


> If you study Guru Granth Sahib, focus is not on the writers, but on God and hukam. Guru names and writers of the hymns are also recorded for historical purposes to prevent plagerism, and it is custome in Punjabi poetry of that time for the composer to include his name in the text.


 
The unique thing of SGGS is that the verses are written by the Masters themselves. Can't find this in other scriptures. Thus when we make comparisons for accuracy, you know which scriptures are more dependable.


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## dps.1976 (Oct 5, 2008)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*



Rakshit_patil said:


> Sat Shree Akal..
> Brother ur answer is excellent..But believe me thus narrow minded converted muslims has not guts to think logically..
> 
> But ur reply was superb...
> God Bless u.


 to put an end to this discussion i would like to say that kuran which muslim claim to be the ultimate book is total false.Kuran says there are seven sky but Great Guru ,Gurunanak said 500 yr back that there are laks and lakhs of planets and sky that was proved right by the scientists 400 yr later.According to kuran eath is the centre of universe.....!!!!!!!! did so called    prophet  did not know this and if he received commands from GOD he should have corrected himself so that our Muslim brothers shouldnt have to be ashamed of the ignorance of their prophet.So kuran is nothing but a book that should be read as a comic book and deserves same treatment ie forget after reading and do not apply it to your life.


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## spnadmin (Oct 5, 2008)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

dps ji

First a concern and a caution -- we want discussions to continue because this is a forum and squelching discussion would be the end of this and all forums. 

Second, when you say - _So kuran is nothing but a book that should be read as a comic book and deserves same treatment ie forget after reading and do not apply it to your life.  _*SPN asks there be no sect bashing or ridicule of other religions. *But as for your larger point -- Is the Quran scientifically correct? Is the insight of Guru Nanaak more correct? These questions need to be raised in a different thread. This thread addresses whether Guru Nanak was God or a prophet. There are several threads that look at science and scriptures. _Thanks 
_


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 5, 2008)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Guru Nnanak was a 'false' prophet but a true Guru.


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## Astroboy (Oct 6, 2008)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*



dps.1976 said:


> to put an end to this discussion i would like to say that kuran which muslim claim to be the ultimate book is total false.Kuran says there are seven sky but Great Guru ,Gurunanak said 500 yr back that there are laks and lakhs of planets and sky that was proved right by the scientists 400 yr later.According to kuran eath is the centre of universe.....!!!!!!!! did so called    prophet  did not know this and if he received commands from GOD he should have corrected himself so that our Muslim brothers shouldnt have to be ashamed of the ignorance of their prophet.So kuran is nothing but a book that should be read as a comic book and deserves same treatment ie forget after reading and do not apply it to your life.



Guru Nanak loved muslims and hindus alike and never did he say that the Koran is false.
According to Gurbani, a muslim has been given a path to follow :-

ਸਲੋਕੁ  ਮਃ  ੧  ॥
सलोकु मः १ ॥
Salok mėhlā 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:

ਮਿਹਰ  ਮਸੀਤਿ  ਸਿਦਕੁ  ਮੁਸਲਾ  ਹਕੁ  ਹਲਾਲੁ  ਕੁਰਾਣੁ  ॥
मिहर मसीति सिदकु मुसला हकु हलालु कुराणु ॥
Mihar masīṯ siḏak muslā hak halāl kurāṇ.
Let mercy be your mosque, faith your prayer-mat, and honest living your Koran.

ਸਰਮ  ਸੁੰਨਤਿ  ਸੀਲੁ  ਰੋਜਾ  ਹੋਹੁ  ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ  ॥
सरम सुंनति सीलु रोजा होहु मुसलमाणु ॥
Saram sunaṯ sīl rojā hohu musalmāṇ.
Make modesty your circumcision, and good conduct your fast. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim.

ਕਰਣੀ  ਕਾਬਾ  ਸਚੁ  ਪੀਰੁ  ਕਲਮਾ  ਕਰਮ  ਨਿਵਾਜ  ॥
करणी काबा सचु पीरु कलमा करम निवाज ॥
Karṇī kābā sacẖ pīr kalmā karam nivāj.
Let good conduct be your Kaabaa, Truth your spiritual guide, and the karma of good deeds your prayer and chant.

ਤਸਬੀ  ਸਾ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਭਾਵਸੀ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਰਖੈ  ਲਾਜ  ॥੧॥
तसबी सा तिसु भावसी नानक रखै लाज ॥१॥
Ŧasbī sā ṯis bẖāvsī Nānak rakẖai lāj. ||1||
Let your rosary be that which is pleasing to His Will. O Nanak, God shall preserve your honor. ||1||


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## dps.1976 (Oct 6, 2008)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

The problem with us is that we interpret gurbani according to our understanding.Had the Koran been  the last message or Book ,.God would not have send GURU GRANTH SAHIB to bless the mankind. or would have  ordered GURU NANAK DEV JI  TO rewrite it in gurmukhi.IT is a fact that we should accept that there must have been some falacies in koran that God send SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB to guide the mankind.also respect muslim and respect for great Farid ji  .I was just saying  that how can one say that Nanak is false prophet  just because his prophet said that he would be the last!and how can you explain the scintific  mistakes in koran that christens accept to be present in Bible and do not claim that bible is the last word from god and any other book after bible is fake.


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## Astroboy (Oct 6, 2008)

*re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*



> .I was just saying that how can one say that Nanak is false prophet just because his prophet said that he would be the last!and how can you explain the scintific mistakes in koran that christens accept to be present in Bible and do not claim that bible is the last word from god and any other book after bible is fake.



I understand your heart-felt concerns now. As you've clearly pointed that Guru Nanak mentions "patala paataal, lakh agasa agaas......"

All we have to do is read Gurbani in Gurmukhi so that we do not have to deal with mis-translation. But I also believe that the mis-translations are few and the benefits of english translation is satisfactory.


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## thesikhviewpoint (Jul 1, 2012)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

well my dear muslim brother my guru never instructed me to point finger on others but my guru do ordered me to crush the false and wrong...so here is only one reply of mine to you n ur so called islamic scholars....prophet modh. got revelation from one angel gabriel and not the almighty himself i.e. there is mediator n when an important task is being done you never go for mediators as the mediator can get mistaken or wrong. so had it been so that prophet modh. was to be last messenger to get the most important word of almighty, almighty would have never banked on a mediator...so if we go by the real fact koran is not real word of god but a angel n if u say angel was appointed by god then I say on one hand we have sggsj in which at numerous instances it is being reffered that the shabad is not of guru's himself but of almighty which is being spoken through his mouth
"O (Bhai) Lalo! As the Lord’s
word comes to me so I
deliver it."
(Ang 722, Sri Guru Granth
Sahib Ji)

and on other hand we have a book whose writer was already not in direct contact with god and further more he missed to write the revelations of angel himself n thus it became a third hand book...as it was 1st revealf by a mediator and again compiled by humans after around many years after death of so called last prophet....in the sikh view point you can call him last prophet of angels but nt almighty because no one can guess or put hold on almightys powers and doings n you fools clam to have lockf almighty's powers that even if he wish in future he can not send any other prophet....
AND MOST OF SUCH QUESTIONS WHICH YOU FOOLISH MUSLIMS N SO CALLed ISLAMIC SCHOLARS PUT ON SIKHISM ARE VERY WELL ANSWERED IN THE YOU TUBE CHANNEL 'THE SIKH VIEW POINT'...GUR FATEH


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## Auzer (Jul 2, 2012)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*



thesikhviewpoint said:


> well my dear muslim brother my guru never instructed me to point finger on others but my guru do ordered me to crush the false and wrong...so here is only one reply of mine to you n ur so called islamic scholars....prophet modh. got revelation from one angel gabriel and not the almighty himself i.e. there is mediator n when an important task is being done you never go for mediators as the mediator can get mistaken or wrong. so had it been so that prophet modh. was to be last messenger to get the most important word of almighty, almighty would have never banked on a mediator...so if we go by the real fact koran is not real word of god but a angel n if u say angel was appointed by god then I say on one hand we have Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jij in which at numerous instances it is being reffered that the shabad is not of guru's himself but of almighty which is being spoken through his mouth
> "O (Bhai) Lalo! As the Lord’s
> word comes to me so I
> deliver it."
> ...



C'mon dude! No need to "revive" this dead thread after freaking four years...

Secondly, do not make your opinion regarding Muslims just by reading rants from internet posters..How do we know that the thread starter is not some random teenager messing around on the internet? Or probably , he is not even a Muslim but just made one account and started posting crap just to have tensions between Sikhs and Muslims? Or just to give Islam a bad name? 

So I beg you to not to fall in the trap. Internet is a tricky place..One must be very careful while using it...

Peace. 

Plus: I'll check your Youtube channel sometime 0


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## Ishna (Jul 2, 2012)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

TheSikhviewpoint ji

Welcome to the forum.  Please have a browse of the topics and discussions and comment as you like.

However, when discussing interfaith issues, please keep in mind the disclaimer at the top of this page:

*Unity in Diversity*: Many members on SPN, come from various religious and cultural backgrounds and may have variable conflicting opinions. Religion and Philosophy are general but unique for each person's understanding and progress. If you disagree, simply accept the difference and ask for information you may not know. *Unnecessary bragging, trash talk, childish arguments only take us away from the topic in hand. Please avoid them at any cost.*

I've made the last line bold for emphasis.  It is ok to have an opinion, but it's *not ok* to make derogatory statements towards an individual or their religion.  :noticekudi:

Gurfateh


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## thesikhviewpoint (Jul 3, 2012)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

well I do'nt think that i've posted any unhealthy comment....what i've posted is a reality and i've nothing to do with the man who started this thread. regarding the disclamer notice I must advice you to please put such notice as soon as such threads are created rather than when an answer is given in its response....and lastly but not leastly kindly do some mercy and show me where I went unhealthy in my comment...it started with brother and finished with fateh and in between the reality and truth...


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## Admin (Jul 3, 2012)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

*General Clarification: The Notice in Red font is always visible in this section towards to top as a friendly reminder. Gurfateh!
*


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## Kamala (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Ha ha "False prophet".. It seems unwise to tell people this of the same religion... we Sikhs here aren't muslim.. so they wont really believe..


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Guru Nanak ji IS NOT even a "Prophet..false or otherwise"...He IS UNIVERSES AWAY form ALL those who are called PROPHET this and Prophet that. Guru nanak Ji is THE STAR in His Own Universe...the UNIVERSAL UNIVERSE...GURMATT !!


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## sid (Jul 10, 2012)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

the message and guidelines for life style given by guru nanak ji only want any one to follow not to debate using huge and very heavy words.
his messages need only one home that is our heart


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## sandeep17oct (Aug 20, 2012)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Please see this:
http://thelangarhall.com/sikhi/preserving-a-sikh-shrine-in-iraq/


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 28, 2012)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Please understand the whole of sikhism revealations is coming directly from god without the help of anything in between example angels..quran is coming thru the help of angels..sikhism rejects angels because they themself are lost in maya.. So in sikhism thought mukti cannot be earned thru the help of angels.. Some say angels has no desires.. Sikhism rejects this because all angels plus other deities are crying for a human birth plus grace of god, so the desires are there... Thru human birth there is free will and chance to earn grace of god for mukti.. Angels does not have free will,, they are following god comandments and singing the lord praises only.. But angels are also not attaining any grace of god.. So angels cannot teach us the path of mukti, return to god..destiny in sikhism is to return to god but destiny in islam is heaven and hell.. Sikhism rejects heaven and hell because in both cases ego-haumai is still there and further more heaven and hells are still located in maya region.. Islam has labeled the whole humanity as carrying original sins of adam and eve, except their prophet the choosen one..sikhism rejects this because grace of god is for the whole creation. Sikhism takes the soul to be the true self, but islam takes the body to be the one and about the soul they will say it s a god secret, man does not know anything about the soul.. In sikhism, the body or ego haumai cannot show us the path to mukti, but it will take you to maya to enjoy heaven and hell... Sikhism recommend it s followers to go into the 4th stage, where the true soul will manifest but islam only mingle arround with the 3 types consciousness, the highest here is sleeping without dreams, then wait till judgement day when everything is distroyed.. Sikhism rejects this because this 3 stages are all in maya region.. Sikhism wants us to be awake not sleeping, because mukti is only earned in waking state consciousness on earth physical plane in a human birth... Islam believe human birth is coming from the past sins of adam and eve..sikhism rejects this, because human birth are coming from past good actions.. So after a human birth it s time to run after mukti thru the grace of god.. But in islam they keep on running after good actions because their destiny is the heaven in maya. but they does not know by preserving the ego, death will always be there.. they did not made their destiny beyond maya because they think man is a original sinner and has desires. sikhism rejects this and say the lord s grace is very powerfull and there is no weakness in god and his grace.. since revealations in islam is coming from the limited angels, they think life and death is only taking place once.. But destiny in sikhism is SUCH KHAND, the highest heaven beyond maya and time and space and where there is no duality and ego, no male or female.. quran is brought down by only sound of the bell, but sikhism are full revealations thru the help of shabad naam directly from god.. this is my oppinion


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Jan 1, 2013)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

continue---- even though sikhism does not make a destiny to heavens or hell in maya region but sikhism does not deny the existance of heavens and hells in maya.. for sikhism every birth is a hell, because the entity is still in an EGO form, and death is always there. the real heaven is Such Khand where death, time, duality, and ego does not exist..this is where the true soul will manifest, true soul will usually listen only but not talking in languages. here there are no languages. here oneness with god is experienced.


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## aristotle (Jan 2, 2013)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

This thing always annoys me. Some Muslims throw this argument: Guru Nanak didn't claim he was a prophet, Muhammad said he was a prophet. So, Muhammad is the last prophet and Sikhs should submit to him..

For God's sake people, use your grey matter...and have a life...
Guru Nanak Sahib is our Guru, the holy teacher...and his pedestal is unsharable to anyone...

:whatzpointsing:


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## spnadmin (Jan 2, 2013)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

This thread goes back years. It was a wind-up thread intended to get Sikhs wound up over an irrelevant statement... kind of like breaking up a wedding by tripping the bridegroom's uncle and then saying he deserved it because he wasn't watching where he was walking. Poor uncle! He did realize he needed to be on guard for a set-up followed by a sucker punch. There is no point to it because no one ever claimed Guru Nanak was a prophet to begin with, including Guru Nanak. So why walk into the ambush? Or if you know it is an ambush, just call it for what it is and leave the reception. Who wins in this kind of argument?


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Jan 14, 2013)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

Guru nanak did mention, that whoever who can come forward and show him the path of naam, he is ready to touch their feet..this is what we call in sikhism the art of practising humility, minus the pride.. the muslim prophet mention that he is the chosen one and the last prophet.. in sikhism we call this an act of pride, not humility.. guru nanak did mention that god is not partial, his grace is for everyone.. further more the NAAM in islam mention in QURAN is only sound of bell.. in sikhism we went much further then this.. in islam they believe god is talking, in sikhism listening is more vital..when you say god is talking that means their revealations are only coming from universal mind-- kalaam.. but actually god is much higher then this.. WHATEVER COMES FROM THIS KAALAM, IS ONLY APPLICABLE TO REGION OF TIME AND SPACE ONLY.. actually the true ONE GOD-akal purakh is seated much higher then this kaalam-universal mind..they islam are only taking on the immanent part of god that is sargun, but they forgot about NIRGUN.. At the beginning when there was nothing, there was no sargun yet, but only nirgun- unmanifested one was there.. destiny in sikhism is to rise higher then time and space, and only naam is the true guide..


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## justahuman (Sep 17, 2013)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

eacesign: Sir.....Hindu or musalmanoi......Shubh Amlaan Baajoh Do-no Roi.....means good deeds only define a human and not one is born in.

what is in Muhamad The Great and Gurus the Greats.......

Only fools fight in foolish debates....enjoy the wonders of this universe by being tolerant and good to humans and nature by living wisely.

Every one is unique not only the great prophet or the gurus all are unique and no one shall on this universe shall be repeated....we may not be able to judge.......

if we r unkind we r not following Great Mohamad  or the Granth Sahib
if we are not perceiving Allah or Ram in this universe...and the mankind.....
what so if I boast of being one of the Religious minded and an Egoistic personality.....

and where there is ego there is no god or allah Khudai.......only fools ego and the ego fights......

What happened if Allah has made to born a Hindu or a Sikh and happened If Ram Narayan had made me to born a Musalim... All these are on the Natures Law....

Today one is born Sikh and ....praise Sikh ;ife...a muslim a momins life...a hindu ... a hindu lifestyle.......all are biased and limited with ego...when we shall have true inspection and live like humans....take all the Avatars , Gurus and Prophets my Mankinds...Mine .. Avtars , Gurus and Prophets.......who will acertain that a Great Human have said the Allah is Finished with the Qualities and now no Great Humans can be produced in this universe any more........  I Disagree....whether a Sikh,a Hindu or a Momin says such foolish takes...... all such are rubbish 
More over I feel that it is only the task of the mischievers of mankind to declare such statements ..... in the name of the enlighted ones......

Had RAM RAHIM ...GURUS had shared the same Time Space they would rather enjoy the Bhakti... Naam instead of proving who is right because all must have been at equally great levels of sprituallity......

Please do not compare such degro way... Kuran is equally            loveable as is Sri Guru Granth Sahib.... and so is the Hindus.....scriptures.......only LOVE...seeing Almighty in all is the religion...rest is Ego......

Treat every one as your own......loving family......like your Kids....
Allah Hafiz.....


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## justahuman (Sep 17, 2013)

*Re: Guru Nanak: A 'False' Prophet ?*

This thing always annoys me. Some Muslims throw this argument: Guru Nanak didn't claim he was a prophet, Muhammad said he was a prophet. So, Muhammad is the last prophet and Sikhs should submit to him..
----------------
 I have already agreed ...stating...all..Avatars ..RAM, KRISHAN...BUDHA...MAHAVIRA, MOHAMAD...TEN Gurus....and all englighted ones there after and at present who so ever are.....are mine...are of the man kind and like scientists do not discriminate scince in the name of scientist...but see science as scence....so do I believe in single line of philosophy.....only one dharma..man kind    no fight.. 
God Bless All......
Nanak Naam Chardi Kala teray Bhanay Sarbat Ka Bhalla.......

For God's sake people, use your grey matter...and have a life...
Guru Nanak Sahib is our Guru, the holy teacher...and his pedestal is unsharable to anyone...


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## kggr (Oct 21, 2013)

I think it's not religion but the things you do in your live that brings you closer to god.

Religion is just to guide you.


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## sikh Engineer (May 7, 2015)

jinni said:


> Sikhs do call, Guru Nanak as their Prophet. Which is wrong, becos hazrat Muhammad [SAW]was the last prophet, and all others who claim to be one, are hypocrites and false prophet.
> 
> Guru Nanak was no Prophet just reformer, it would be clear by reading the fowlling.
> 
> ...


 
Dear Jinni and Muslim

After reading your thread I was bit confused and surprised too, how some people can be so ignorant that they just read the sentence and takes its  meaning  which suits them.

Tell me who said Muhammed was last prophet according  to you God said through quran which was reveled to Muhammed ok   right I agree with you but brother don't you use logic he is there fore last prophet but last prophet in ISLAM  not for whole world because as per you people  prophet comes to guide people when everything is going in wrong way, people are suffering so God send prophet  who lead people out of darkness into light.  so what you think after muhammed all people start living as per the will of GOD the presently century in which we all are living maximum people are suffering in the  whole world so now  what you say GOD should not send anyone because he already send muhammed. GOD will send prophet because GOD is not having any binding nor he has  signed any contract with muslims  that he will not send any other prophet, brother its common sense whenever  people divert  from true path and indulge in  wrong deed GOD will send his men now its upto you, you  can say him prophet, messenger or anything else so same is this case when Guru Nanak came people were into wrong deeds all were without direction he is also prophet or we say him Guru


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## Jaswinderpal (Feb 16, 2016)

Mr . Jinni. First answering your question of whether Guru Nanak Dev was prophet i would ask you Was mohd.a real prophet ? Which i believe he was not?

It is narrated in Bukhari (hadees) when first time jibril came to mohd he was scared.  What kind of beloved Prophet will get scared from a angel.

During the first revelation, Gabriel was rather forceful with Muhammad and succeeded in terrifying him:

The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Mohd replied, "I do not know how to read.
The Mohd added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3)

Then mohd returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me."
Sahih Bukhari 1:1:3

One other hand Guru Nanak directly got relevation from Waheguru (Lord). Guru sahib says " jaisay mai aaway Khasam ki baani tasra krey Gain wey Lalo" meaning  The way Revelation ( word of lord) is revealed by Waheguru (Allah) to me , in the same way i narrate the knowledge further. 
Sggs.


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## sikh Engineer (Feb 16, 2016)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa 
Waheguru ji ki fateh

I have already made it clear that Muhammad is last prophet, but he is last prophet of Islam. God has not yet signed any agreement with my muslims brothers that he will not send any prophet to world, my muslim brothers are misguiding people by saying he is last prophet of whole world, he cant be last prophet. its up to God's will if he wants or if situation arises he can send any number of prophets. 
when everything is going in wrong way, people are suffering so God send prophet who lead people out of darkness into light. so no religion can claim our prophet is last because all rights reserved to GOD only.
Hope all will agree with this  logic.


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## japjisahib04 (Feb 17, 2016)

Unlike Hindus who believes a revered soul coming down as a human being and this concept is derived from bhagvat geeta chapter 4 verse 7-8 which says yada yada hi darmesiah that whenever there is decline of dharma and the rise of Adharma, O Arjuna, then I manifest (or incarnate). I incarnate in every age for protecting the good, for punishing or transforming the wicked, and for the establishment of Dharma, I manifest myself to protect the good and to establish the righteousness I will be born  and in Islam ch.34, v28 almost similar concept is there that he sent his messengers Mohammed as last prophet whereas in gurbani the concept of manifestation of God is different. Wherever there is truth He is there. He (virtues) are always here and whosoever loves can manifest the divine virtues through the arrow of sabd guru to render justice guru mere sangh sada hai naalai or satguru mera sda sda n aavai j jaey and does not go and come back. It that state of mind guru sahib utters 'jaisi mai aavey khasam ki baani'.  It thus falsifies or dismississ the revelations or commandments of Mohammed.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Feb 17, 2016)

I find it kind of odd how the OP mentioned that a prophet can't just self-declare, and that it's up to "allah' however didn't Muhammad self-dclare himself as the last prophet? 

Guru Nanak Dev Ji on the other hand, was quoted as saying he was just a servant of God... in other words he was humble and not self proclaiming himself as someone great.


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