# Nanak Is The Guru, Nanak Is The Lord Himself



## Sikh80

gur kw sbdu n mytY koie ] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.
gurunwnku nwnku hir soie ]4]7]9] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
*Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.* ||4||7||9||

These are the Vaaks from Guru Arjan dev ji maharaj. I am not able to proceed further as the meaning assigned to the 'tuk' does not fit in well with the conceptual framework Of sikhi that I had the chance to build on this forum. Frankly speaking., I have not yet had one full reading of the Granth sahib ji whom I hold in high esteem.

It was in a post of SPN that I was reading that unlike other religions sikhism does not preach that their Gurus are God. But here the things do not appear to me in sync. with the above. 


Is Guru Nanak dev ji stated to be Creator?
or
The translation is not correct
or
My appreciation Of the translation is faulty.

I would also be grateful if someone can tell as to in which year the line was authored or it was during the compilation of the Granth sahib. Did the earlier 3 gurus not observe this.?

kindly correct me.


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

*Dear Sikh80 Ji,*


*Bani Sach Hai............ doesn't matter in which year the lines are composed.*



*A TRUE SAINT: WHOSE SOUL IS MERGED WITH THE ALMIGHTY(GOD). SO IS THERE A DIFFERENCE??? NO. BUT A SAINT NEVER NEVER SING HIS/HER OWN PRAISES..................... *


*NO TRUE SAINT calls himself/herself GOD. *


*BUT A TRUE SAINT KNOWS ABOUT THE OTHER TRUE SAINT, SO ACKNOWLEDGING HIM .................*


*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaaj is telling about Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.*


*OUR GURUS ARE SO HUMBLE Sikh80 Ji, THEY HAVE EVEN SUGGESTED THAT NO BODY SHOULD CALL THEM GOD. BUT ONCE ONE KNOWS THE TRUTH, ONCE HEAD BOWS WITH UTMOST RESPECT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.............. AND HEART AND MIND ABSORBS THE TRUTH- TU HI TU.............................*

*Untill one has doubts about his/her Guru's ability, duality stays lingering in one form or the other..........*


*SEVAK SIKH POOJAN SABH AAYE............................. read this shabad, in this Shabad Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Sahib is telling that one has to believe the word(order) of his/her Guru as TRUE. *

*and treatment of doubt is also prescribed by Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib- naam simran/rab nu chete karo/remember Him and only Him.................................................................*

*Waheguru Rakha*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So??*



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Dear Sikh80 Ji,*
> 
> 
> *Bani Sach Hai............ doesn't matter in which year the lines are composed.*
> 
> 
> 
> *A TRUE SAINT: WHOSE SOUL IS MERGED WITH THE ALMIGHTY(GOD). SO IS THERE A DIFFERENCE??? NO. BUT A SAINT NEVER NEVER SING HIS/HER OWN PRAISES..................... *
> 
> 
> *NO TRUE SAINT calls himself/herself GOD. *
> 
> 
> *BUT A TRUE SAINT KNOWS ABOUT THE OTHER TRUE SAINT, SO ACKNOWLEDGING HIM .................*
> 
> 
> *Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaaj is telling about Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.*
> 
> 
> *OUR GURUS ARE SO HUMBLE Sikh80 Ji, THEY HAVE EVEN SUGGESTED THAT NO BODY SHOULD CALL THEM GOD. BUT ONCE ONE KNOWS THE TRUTH, ONCE HEAD BOWS WITH UTMOST RESPECT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.............. AND HEART AND MIND ABSORBS THE TRUTH- TU HI TU.............................*
> 
> *Untill one has doubts about his/her Guru's ability, duality stays lingering in one form or the other..........*
> 
> 
> *SEVAK SIKH POOJAN SABH AAYE............................. read this shabad, in this Shabad Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Sahib is telling that one has to believe the word(order) of his/her Guru as TRUE. *
> 
> *and treatment of doubt is also prescribed by Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib- naam simran/rab nu chete karo/remember Him and only Him.................................................................*
> 
> *Waheguru Rakha*


 
Thanks for your reply. However, it answers the question only in a round about manner. You have treated all the guru sahibaan as different. They are 'one jot' as they had the same spirit hence treating the gurus as separate entities/gurus in the present context may not be ok.

Secondly, it is stated in Gurbani itself that the Creator Himself cannot take the route of Incarnation. _I presume that the translation is incorrect._ If we take the translation at face value the entire edifice of sikhi will have to undergo a change. Guru Nanak ji cannot be God/creator as he has stated many things in the eulogisation of the Almighty.One cannot go on praising oneself.It becomes superfluous and redundant and meaningless. Incidently it is in Gurbani that it is stated that the Creator creates Himself. If we take Guru Nanak as the Creator the above does not stand to truth as Guru nanak did not create HIMself.

I think it would be better if some third person guides us. So far as I am concerned I take it as a case of wrong translation /interpretation. 
The following line from japu ji sahib shows that Guru nanak ji cannot be the creator.


siq suhwxu sdw min cwau ] (4-16, jpu, mÚ 1)
He is Beautiful, True and Eternally Joyful.
and

jw krqw isrTI kau swjy Awpy jwxY soeI ] (4-19, jpu, mÚ 1)
The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.


Let some senior member may help and guide us. 
I would reiterate that it is only a case of misinterpretation.


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

*SARGUN AND NIRGUN-----------*

*both are GOD nothing else.*

*WE ARE ALL 'EK JOT' sikh80 ji.* 

*IT IS THE 'DOUBT' that you have in your mind that is bothering you, as i said before: untill there is doubt, dualty will be there in some form.*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

It is neither duality nor a worry,It is to get a confirmation that baba nanak ji was not creator HIMself. Kindly let someone else also opine and let it be a place where we can remove doubts and obtain clarification.Kindly do not block a discussion..
Even in the following line there is a clue that Guru sahib were not the creator.
ikv kir AwKw ikv swlwhI ikau vrnI ikv jwxw ] (4-19, jpu, mÚ 1)
How can we speak of Him? How can we praise Him? How can we describe Him? How can we know Him?

It would be very useful if someone else may take up the thread.


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

*Baba Nanak is not a creator when we are talking in terms of HUMAN BODY/HUMAN LIFE/NON SPRITUAL CONCEPTS.*

*BUT DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU ARJAN DEV JI IS TALKING ABOUT A SAINT, A SAADH, A REALIZED SOUL not a mere human body.................*

*i humbly tried to make you think about the truth, you don't want to contemplate on truth, very well. *

*Waheguru Rakha*


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*


*guru prmysru eyko jwxu ] **(864-9, goNf, mÚ 5)
**gur parmaysar ayko jaan.
Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One.
**jo iqsu BwvY so prvwxu ]1] rhwau ] **(864-9, goNf, mÚ 5)
**jo tis bhaavai so parvaan. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Whatever pleases Him is acceptable and approved. ||1||Pause||
*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

Respected Surinder ji,

You are making statements so frequently and in contradiction that their reliability is lost.I understand your view point now.Let it be attended to by someone else as well . What is the relevance of the above post?.I do not know. Kindly let someone else take up.

So far as I am concerned I am answered and believe that it is a case of mis-interpretation or wrong interpretation.


Regards.


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*



			
				Sikh80 said:
			
		

> What is the relevance of the above post?.


 
*any body can understand the relevance:*

*it states GURU AND GOD -same no difference.*

*gur parmaysar ayko jaan.*

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Panna # 864*

*gur parmaysar paarbarahm gur dubdaa la-ay taraa-ay. *
*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Panna # 49*


*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Archived_member2

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Many Preachers are selling Guru Naanak Dev Jee as God. Your curiosity is highly appreciable. I would love to read posts from other experts too.

From the day preachers fallen low at consciousness started misinterpreting Guru's Vaaks, The new generations of Sikhs got puzzled.
The words Gur, Guru, Guroo, Guri, Satgur, Satguru, Satguroo, Satguri and in other forms have to say something special at their places.

ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ 
गुरु परमेसरु एको जाणु ॥
gur parmaysar ayko jaan. sggs ang 864
Gur is surely not the paper Guru nor Gur is the body in that Gurdev lived once. Then what is this Gur, Surinder Jee. 
<<<<<<<<<<<< Edited >>>>>>>>>>>>

Balbir Singh


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

*Santokh Veer Ji, *
*ya after deleting you are requesting me to repost it, you think i am keeping track........  he he........*

*why did you delete in the first place, was it something inappropreate, please explain.......*

*thanks*


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## Astroboy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

Surinder Ji,

You may re-post your message, thank you.


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

*Santokh Veer, seriously, i dont remember what it was. it is ok now, it is gone, it is gone...........  dont worry.*

*let us be happy...........*


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## Archived_member2

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

This is an interesting point. Please ponder. How is this possible when Naanak is God Himself?

jnu nwnku hir kw dwsu hY hir kI vifAweI ]
jnu nwnku hir kw dwsu hY hir kI vifAweé ]
"janu naanaku hari kaa daasu hai hari kee vadiaaee." SGGS Ang 166-6
Jan Naanak is the servant of Hari, Hari's Praise.


Balbir Singh


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## Archived_Member_19

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

an~halak


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## Archived_member2

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

This is another holy Vaak from Guru Raam Daas Jee. Please ponder. How is this possible when The Guru is God Himself?

hir bwqw AwiK suxwey nwnku hir krqy eyvY BwvY ]
hir bwqw AwiK suxwE nwnku hir krqy EvY BwvY ]
hari baataa aakhi sunaae naanaku hari karte evai bhaavai. SGGS Ang 303-15
Hari gossips speak reciting.  Naanak Hari pleases doing so.


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

ਕਾਦਰੁ ਕਿਨੇ ਨ ਲਖਿਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੀਆ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ । 
That creator could not be seen by anyone who to expand Himself created the infinite nature(prakrti).Lin3    

The above line is from Bhai Gurdas ji and states clearly that HE cannot be seen by anyone. It is clear that the Vaaran that were read by Maharaj Arjan dev ji had the implicit approval. Thus Guru nanaka dev ji could be the embodiment of the lord and not the Lord Himself.

Further in Gurbani there is a clear cut statement to the effect that any one who states that the creator takes birth will have his tongue burnt.
All this suggests that Guru ji were only embodiment of The lord and were not Lord themselves.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

Awpxw Awpu aupwieEnu qdhu horu n koeI ] (509-2, gUjrI kI vwr, mÚ 3)
He created Himself - at that time, there was no other.
mqw msUriq Awip kry jo kry su hoeI ] (509-2, gUjrI kI vwr, mÚ 3)
He consulted Himself for advice, and what He did came to pass.
qdhu Awkwsu n pwqwlu hY nw qRY loeI ] (509-2, gUjrI kI vwr, mÚ 3)
At that time, there were no Akaashic Ethers, no nether regions, nor the three worlds.
qdhu Awpy Awip inrMkwru hY nw Epiq hoeI ] (509-3, gUjrI kI vwr, mÚ 3)
At that time, only the Formless Lord Himself existed - there was no creation.
ijau iqsu BwvY iqvY kry iqsu ibnu Avru n koeI ]1] (509-3, gUjrI kI vwr, mÚ 3)
As it pleased Him, so did He act; without Him, there was no other. ||1||

The above lines also eulogise the All Mighty. It is very clearly stated that HE created HImself. Hence the question the Gurus were God is answered  in negation. There is no scope Of any further argument./discussion.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

*AKAL MURATI*


AKAL MURATI | The Sikh Encyclopedia


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*




> *without Him, there was no other*




*Sikh 80 ji these lines tell me neech that THERE IS NO OTHER. SO NANAK AND GOD IS THE SAME ONE.............................*

*JO JO DEESAY TERA ROOP....................*
*How can we exclude Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Sache Paatshah.*

*Bani Nirankaar Hai.............*
*Te Guru Sahib Jina Bani Rachi???????????????*

*Waheguru*


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

*Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi.........*

*Sabh Te Vadda Satguru Nanak..........*

*Waheguru*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

krxI kIriq nwmu vsweI ] (363-3, Awsw, mÚ 3)
Singing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, the Naam abides within the mind.

**
This is the Bani Of Guru Nanak Dev ji wherein he states that we should do the keertan in HIS praise. It tells us again that Guru ji was not God though he might have merged with HIM.


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## Archived_member2

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Sikh80 Jee!

Every Vaak from the true Gurus is the experience of Truth.

Translations may be a help for the beginners. For spiritual growth true Naam Simran is the must. Also, Guru's statements then become our own experience and understanding them is simple and straight.

This topic incites longing for Satsangs. I wish I have more time for it.

**************

This impulse is something to begin with the first Vaak referring Gurdev.

gur kw sbdu n mytY koie ] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
gur kw sbdu n mytY koe ] (19, goØNf, gu} Arjn dyv)
gur kaa sabadu na metai koee.

Gur's Sabad does not delete anyone.

The Gur (Wisdom) of true Sabad gives eternity.

The next Vaak is then easy to understand when one knows the difference of words Naanak, Naanaku, Naanaki Naankaa and other similar words.

Love.


Balbir Singh


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## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

Thank you Balbir ji,
happy


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## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

ਕਰਤਾ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਈ । 
*No one has seen or known this creator, and rather people have remained indulged in the expansive delusions of prakriti (nature).*
*Line  5   *
ਸੋਹੰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਛਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਪੜਦਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ਸੁਣਾਈ । 
*Not realising that soham parbrahm, the jiv is mistaken in understanding Him as a man (full of fallacies).*
*Line  6   *

*[bhai Gurdas ji]*


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*




			
				Sikh80 said:
			
		

> ਕਰਤਾ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਈ ।
> *No one has seen or known this creator, and rather people have remained indulged in the expansive delusions of prakriti (nature).
> Line 5
> *ਸੋਹੰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਛਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਪੜਦਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ਸੁਣਾਈ ।
> *Not realising that soham parbrahm, the jiv is mistaken in understanding Him as a man (full of fallacies).
> Line 6
> 
> [bhai Gurdas ji]*


 


*Thanks very much Sikh 80 Ji,*


*exactly, we are not talking about our Guru as 'MAN'.*


*Guru is INFINITE..........................So .........Soham Parbrahm*


*thanks a lot.*


*BEAUTIFUL, AT LEAST ONE MORE FELLOW AT SPN LIKES RESPECTED BHAI GURDAS JI.*

*Waheguru*


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

*People who consider their Guru as just another Man-full of fallacies-think about their level.....................*

*Jaisa Guru Vaisa Chela.*



*Satguru Sache Patshah Dhan Nirankaar..........*

*Waheguru*


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

ਕਰਤਾ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਈ । 
*No one has seen or known this creator, and rather people have remained indulged in the expansive delusions of prakriti (nature).*
*Line 5 *
ਸੋਹੰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਛਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਪੜਦਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ਸੁਣਾਈ । 
*Not realising that soham parbrahm, the jiv is mistaken in understanding Him as a man (full of fallacies).*
*Line 6 *

*[bhai Gurdas ji]*

*these beautiful lines by Bhai Gurdas ji tells us that Karta is Waheguru not Man-this I/Me/He/She......................  *

*Dhan Dhan Gurbani:  kar kar vaikhe jaane soi.................*

*Waheguru*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਉ ਆਪੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ । 
*satigur naanak dayu aapu upaaiaa|*
*God himself created the true Guru Nanak.*​ 

Nanak ji was created by HIM. So how can Nanak ji be the One who created him.?
added afterwards

Surinder ji,
I am a new comer to sikhi and am likely to believe that is stated by a senior member like you. I hope you shall only be stating that is true else it is likely to create problems for others. I have stated my position. You may now clarify, when the time permits, if Nanak dev ji was creator. Looks far from reality; but if you are reasonably sure about this you are free to post.


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## Archived_member2

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

This is the difference. 

ਕਰਤਾ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਈ । 
Bhai Gurdas says 'No one has seen or known this creator'.

Guru Amardaas Jee is singing Truth.
Aidstu Agocru AlKu inrMjnu so dyiKAw gurmuiK AwKI ]
Aidstu Agoc{ AlKu inrNjnu so dyiKAw gurmuiK AwKI ]
adistu agocharu alakhu niranjanu so daykhiaa gurmukhi aakhee. SGGS Ang 87-19

Listeners and readers are perhaps curious to know who has seen whom and told about HIM.

**************

Quote from Surinder Jee (Post #27) "exactly, we are not talking about our Guru as 'MAN'."
Another Quote (Post #28) "People who consider their Guru as just another Man-full of fallacies-think about their level.....................Jaisa Guru Vaisa Chela."

The generations of sinners during the true Guru's time were also having the same slogans.


Balbir Singh


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

*sinners*


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Sache Paatshah De Paavan Bachan:*



* Panna#2*

*ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ ਆਖਹਿ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ॥*
*ਫੇਰਿ ਕਿ ਅਗੈ ਰਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ ॥ ਮੁਹੌ ਕਿ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥*
*ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥*
 
*swcw swihbu swcu nwie BwiKAw Bwau Apwru ] **(2-3, jpu, mÚ 1)
**saachaa saahib saach naa-ay bhaakhi-aa bhaa-o apaar.
True is the Master, True is His Name-speak it with infinite love.
**AwKih mMgih dyih dyih dwiq kry dwqwru ] **(2-3, jpu, mÚ 1)
**aakhahi mangahi dayhi dayhi daat karay daataar.
People beg and pray, "Give to us, give to us", and the Great Giver gives His Gifts.
**Pyir ik AgY rKIAY ijqu idsY drbwru ] **(2-4, jpu, mÚ 1)
**fayr ke agai rakhee-ai jit disai darbaar.
So what offering can we place before Him, by which we might see the Darbaar of His Court?
**muhO ik bolxu bolIAY ijqu suix Dry ipAwru ] **(2-4, jpu, mÚ 1)
**muhou ke bolan bolee-ai jit sun Dharay pi-aar.
What words can we speak to evoke His Love?
**AMimRq vylw scu nwau vifAweI vIcwru ] **(2-5, jpu, mÚ 1)
**amrit vaylaa sach naa-o vadi-aa-ee veechaar.
In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness.
**krmI AwvY kpVw ndrI moKu duAwru ] **(2-5, jpu, mÚ 1)
**karmee aavai kaprhaa nadree mokh du-aar.
By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.
**nwnk eyvY jwxIAY sBu Awpy sicAwru ]4] **(2-6, jpu, mÚ 1)
**naanak ayvai jaanee-ai sabh aapay sachiaar. ||4||
O Nanak, know this well: the True One Himself is All. ||4||*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

Surinder ji,

Do you confirm that baba Nanak ,born in 1469 in Talwandi and the first guru of sikhs & brother Of Bibi Nanki, was the Creator, the Paratma/God/Lord as stated and referred to in Jap ji Sahib ji by Nanak dev ji.

After this I am not likely to question anything on this thread.


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

*are you not the Creator??????????*


*first ask yourself this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  have you ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

*Are you out of Ekomkaar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


*Yes me neechan to vi neech knows ALL IS GOD and GOD IS ALL. AND GURBANI IS STAMPING ON THIS TRUTH OVER AND OVER AGAIN.*

*And Dhan Dhan all 11 Gurus IS GOD/Nirankaar    and ALL.*


*SABH AAPEY SACHYAAR.................*


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*



> was the Creator


 
*this is funny Sikh80 Ji,*

*you are using 'was'  after reading all that Gurbani you been posting*


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## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

*So have you found out WHO IS REAL YOU, dear Sikh 80 Ji  ????????????????*


*me neech humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*

*andar tu hai bahar tu hai rom rom vich tu............*

*Jeta Keeta Teta NAO...................................*


----------



## Archived_Member_19

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

dudes

pls comeout of the God concept of abrahamic God of wrath and the Plato's wise old man in tower

 i am not as learned in Gurbani translation but i can atleast understand what surinder ji is trying to say..

and Blabir ji

you are just twisting the semantics

you say that Guru ji were "liberated" from the junis, aren't others too at somepoint in time?

so yes, Guru Nanak were in human juni, all humans are in juni cycle, but all are God still...

 je Rab milda, bahar labheyaan

taan raab milda gaiyaan majhaan nu,


je rab milda naatheyaa dhotteya...

taan rab milda macchiyaan nu...

je rab milda, hookaan maareyaa,

taan rab milda kaavaan nu...

rab nu ki labhda ein

kade "aiina" jake wekheyaa kar...


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

I am that ,that I am, but I am not that I am not. How could I be that that I am not and was never and will never be that .Likewise How could I be that I am not and can be not.
My layman reasoning fails to understand the reason that has become the reason of sending so many posts that do not stand to any reasonable reason.

Amar ji
Anyone who is subject to life and Death is not a creator and cannot be a creator. It is the plain assumption that we make while looking at the godhead in sikhi.

e&oe


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Dear Sikh80 Ji,*
> 
> 
> *Bani Sach Hai............ doesn't matter in which year the lines are composed.*
> 
> 
> 
> *A TRUE SAINT: WHOSE SOUL IS MERGED WITH THE ALMIGHTY(GOD). SO IS THERE A DIFFERENCE??? NO. BUT A SAINT NEVER NEVER SING HIS/HER OWN PRAISES..................... *
> 
> 
> *NO TRUE SAINT calls himself/herself GOD. *
> 
> 
> *BUT A TRUE SAINT KNOWS ABOUT THE OTHER TRUE SAINT, SO ACKNOWLEDGING HIM .................*
> 
> 
> *Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaaj is telling about Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.*
> 
> 
> *OUR GURUS ARE SO HUMBLE Sikh80 Ji, THEY HAVE EVEN SUGGESTED THAT NO BODY SHOULD CALL THEM GOD. BUT ONCE ONE KNOWS THE TRUTH, ONCE HEAD BOWS WITH UTMOST RESPECT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.............. AND HEART AND MIND ABSORBS THE TRUTH- TU HI TU.............................*
> 
> *Untill one has doubts about his/her Guru's ability, duality stays lingering in one form or the other..........*
> 
> 
> *SEVAK SIKH POOJAN SABH AAYE............................. read this shabad, in this Shabad Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Sahib is telling that one has to believe the word(order) of his/her Guru as TRUE. *
> 
> *and treatment of doubt is also prescribed by Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib- naam simran/rab nu chete karo/remember Him and only Him.................................................................*
> 
> *Waheguru Rakha*


So when Gurus themselves say that they are not God and do not call them God. Why do you insist on calling them God??? I dont see the logic.


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *are you not the Creator??????????*
> 
> 
> *first ask yourself this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  have you ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> *Are you out of Ekomkaar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> 
> *Yes me neechan to vi neech knows ALL IS GOD and GOD IS ALL. AND GURBANI IS STAMPING ON THIS TRUTH OVER AND OVER AGAIN.*
> 
> *And Dhan Dhan all 11 Gurus IS GOD/Nirankaar    and ALL.*
> 
> 
> *SABH AAPEY SACHYAAR.................*


What is Ekomkaar? I have never heard of it.
Yes the Gurus were God and so am I. Since All is God and GOD is all.


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

*Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


*thanks everybody for your comments.*

*Dhan Dhan Gurbani tells us:*

*LOGAN RAAM KHILONA JANA. and with my neech budhi whatever i got here in this thread:*

*Veer Balbir, veer Sikh80, and Veer Bhagat Singh has proved it RIGHT HERE.*

*Thankyou guys*


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> 
> *thanks everybody for your comments.*
> 
> *Dhan Dhan Gurbani tells us:*
> 
> *LOGAN RAAM KHILONA JANA. and with my neech budhi whatever i got here in this thread:*
> 
> *Veer Balbir, veer Sikh80, and Veer Bhagat Singh has proved it RIGHT HERE.*
> 
> *Thankyou guys*



Great! So what have we proved? or is this a form of insult?


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

*Veer BHagat Singh Ji,*

*it is up to you, what you want to make out of it........................*

*me neech is saying again:*

*Gurbani says it and me neechan to vi neech believe in it:*

*God is All and All is God.*
*Dhan Guru Nanak Sache Patshah is God Himself.*
*All includes all, nothing excluded, even the air that veer Bhagat is breathing.*

*thanks for reading.*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


----------



## Archived_member2

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Surinder Jee!

Some persons feel and stress that they are God (Raam). People (LogaN) on this forum feel that she or he is a Khilona.

Please forgive them.


Balbir Singh


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Veer BHagat Singh Ji,*
> 
> *it is up to you, what you want to make out of it........................*
> 
> *me neech is saying again:*
> 
> *Gurbani says it and me neechan to vi neech believe in it:*
> 
> *God is All and All is God. *well said!
> *Dhan Guru Nanak Sache Patshah is God Himself*, and so are you(people). :whisling:
> *All includes all, nothing excluded, even the air that veer Bhagat is breathing. *Who by the way happens to be GOD :}{}{}:
> 
> *thanks for reading.*
> 
> *humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


Great! So I have proved something and it is upto me to decide what I have proved! Let's see for how long u can ignore my questions for?


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*



*Veer Bhagat i answered your question. you cannot read, is not me neech's fault*

*Waheguru Rakha*


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Veer Bhagat i answered your question. you cannot read, is not me neech's fault*
> 
> *Waheguru Rakha*


I am sorry, my reading skills aren't very good? can u please explain ur answer clearly?
Thanks


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

*if you cannot read and understand an already well explained answer, how can you understand it in the next attempt.*

*Waheguru Rakha*


----------



## Archived_member2

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Surinder Jee!

Preachers say that one should love God to find God. People should love you or themselves who do not know what is God.

Please forgive them and allow them to love.


Balbir Singh


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *if you cannot read and understand an already well explained answer, how can you understand it in the next attempt.*
> 
> *Waheguru Rakha*


I dont know maybe someone didnt explain anything!


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

:advocate::advocate::advocate::advocate::advocate::advocate::advocate::advocate::advocate::advocate:


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

Dear Bhagat singh ji,
I can understand your predicament. Go thru. the first question that is asked and the replies of Surinder ji. I hope you will not find any link.
May be it is her style of writing but it is not impressive.
If you make out something please do tell.


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So?*

*ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਜੇ ਮਿਲੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਰਤਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਮਨੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਗੁਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਰਬ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਵਗਣ ਮੇਟਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਨਾਰਦੈ ਬੇਦ ਬਿਆਸੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਧੁਨਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਸਫਲਿਓ ਬਿਰਖੁ ਹਰੀਆਵਲਾ ਛਾਵ ਘਣੇਰੀ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਲਾਲ ਜਵੇਹਰ ਮਾਣਕੀ ਗੁਰ ਭੰਡਾਰੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥ ਗੁਰ ਭੰਡਾਰੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਾਮ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ ਸਾਚੋ ਵਖਰੁ ਸੰਚੀਐ ਪੂਰੈ ਕਰਮਿ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਦੁਖ ਮੇਟਣੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੁ ॥੩॥ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਬਿਖਮੁ ਡਰਾਵਣੋ ਨਾ ਕੰਧੀ ਨਾ ਪਾਰੁ ॥ ਨਾ ਬੇੜੀ ਨਾ ਤੁਲਹੜਾ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਵੰਝੁ ਮਲਾਰੁ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੈ ਕਾ ਬੋਹਿਥਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰੁ ॥੪॥ ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਜਲਉ ਜਲਾਵਣੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਜਪੈ ਰਸਾਇ ॥ ਘਟੁ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਅਗਲੋ ਜਮੁ ਪਕੜੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ॥੫॥ ਮੇਰੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਗਏ ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਕਲਤੁ ਨ ਸਾਥਿ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਧਨੁ ਬਾਦਿ ਹੈ ਭੂਲੋ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਆਥਿ ॥ ਸਾਚਉ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਕਥੋ ਕਾਥਿ ॥੬॥ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ਭਵਾਈਐ ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਕਮਾਇ ॥ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਿਉ ਮੇਟੀਐ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਲੇਖੁ ਰਜਾਇ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਨ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥੭॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਕੋ ਨਹੀ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਜੀਉ ਪਰਾਨੁ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਮਤਾ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਉ ਲੋਭੁ ਜਲਉ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੀਐ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਣੀ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥੮॥੧੦॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 59}*


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*



Sikh80 said:


> Dear Bhagat singh ji,
> I can understand your predicament. Go thru. the first question that is asked and the replies of Surinder ji. I hope you will not find any link.
> May be it is her style of writing but it is not impressive.
> If you make out something please do tell.


Well first i asked what is Ekomkaar? 
Then I asked what I have proved?
U tell me if Surinder ji has answered my questions or not! I dont think she did. I went through her replies but didnt find them.


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So?*

*isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ] (59-6)*
*sireeraag mehlaa 1.*
*Siree Raag, First Mehl:*
*siqguru pUrw jy imlY pweIAY rqnu bIcwru ] (59-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*satgur pooraa jay milai paa-ee-ai ratan beechaar.*
*Meeting the Perfect True Guru, we find the jewel of meditative reflection.*
*mnu dIjY gur Awpxy pweIAY srb ipAwru ] (59-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*man deejai gur aapnay paa-ee-ai sarab pi-aar.*
*Surrendering our minds to our Guru, we find universal love.*
*mukiq pdwrQu pweIAY Avgx mytxhwru ]1] (59-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai avgan maytanhaar. ||1||*
*We find the wealth of liberation, and our demerits are erased. ||1||*
*BweI ry gur ibnu igAwnu n hoie ] (59-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*bhaa-ee ray gur bin gi-aan na ho-ay.*
*O Siblings of Destiny, without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom.*
*pUChu bRhmy nwrdY byd ibAwsY koie ]1] rhwau ] (59-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*poochhahu barahmay naardai bayd bi-aasai ko-ay. ||1|| rahaa-o.*
*Go and ask Brahma, Naarad and Vyaas, the writer of the Vedas. ||1||Pause||*
*igAwnu iDAwnu Duin jwxIAY AkQu khwvY soie ] (59-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*gi-aan Dhi-aan Dhun jaanee-ai akath kahaavai so-ay.*
*Know that from the vibration of the Word, we obtain spiritual wisdom and meditation. Through it, we speak the Unspoken.*
*sPilE ibrKu hrIAwvlw Cwv GxyrI hoie ] (59-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*safli-o birakh haree-aavlaa chhaav ghanayree ho-ay.*
*He is the fruit-bearing Tree, luxuriantly green with abundant shade.*
*lwl jvyhr mwxkI gur BMfwrY soie ]2] (59-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*laal javayhar maankee gur bhandaarai so-ay. ||2||*
*The rubies, jewels and emeralds are in the Guru's Treasury. ||2||*
*gur BMfwrY pweIAY inrml nwm ipAwru ] (59-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*gur bhandaarai paa-ee-ai nirmal naam pi-aar.*
*From the Guru's Treasury, we receive the Love of the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord.*
*swco vKru sMcIAY pUrY krim Apwru ] (59-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*saacho vakhar sanchee-ai poorai karam apaar.*
*We gather in the True Merchandise, through the Perfect Grace of the Infinite.*
*suKdwqw duK mytxo siqguru Asur sMGwru ]3] (59-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*sukh-daata dukh maytno satgur asur sanghaar. ||3||*
*The True Guru is the Giver of peace, the Dispeller of pain, the Destroyer of demons. ||3||*
*Bvjlu ibKmu frwvxo nw kMDI nw pwru ] (59-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*bhavjal bikham daraavno naa kanDhee naa paar.*
*The terrifying world-ocean is difficult and dreadful; there is no shore on this side or the one beyond.*
*nw byVI nw qulhVw nw iqsu vMJu mlwru ] (59-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*naa bayrhee naa tulharhaa naa tis vanjh malaar.*
*There is no boat, no raft, no oars and no boatman.*
*siqguru BY kw boihQw ndrI pwir auqwru ]4] (59-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*satgur bhai kaa bohithaa nadree paar utaar. ||4||*
*The True Guru is the only boat on this terrifying ocean. His Glance of Grace carries us across. ||4||*
*ieku iqlu ipAwrw ivsrY duKu lwgY suKu jwie ] (59-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*ik til pi-aaraa visrai dukh laagai sukh jaa-ay.*
*If I forget my Beloved, even for an instant, suffering overtakes me and peace departs.*
*ijhvw jlau jlwvxI nwmu n jpY rswie ] (59-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*jihvaa jala-o jalaavanee naam na japai rasaa-ay.*
*Let that tongue be burnt in flames, which does not chant the Naam with love.*
*Gtu ibnsY duKu Aglo jmu pkVY pCuqwie ]5] (59-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*ghat binsai dukh aglo jam pakrhai pachhutaa-ay. ||5||*
*When the pitcher of the body bursts, there is terrible pain; those who are caught by the Minister of Death regret and repent. ||5||*
*myrI myrI kir gey qnu Dnu klqu n swiQ ] (59-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*mayree mayree kar ga-ay tan Dhan kalat na saath.*
*Crying out, "Mine! Mine!", they have departed, but their bodies, their wealth, and their wives did not go with them.*
*ibnu nwvY Dnu bwid hY BUlo mwrig AwiQ ] (59-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*bin naavai Dhan baad hai bhoolo maarag aath.*
*Without the Name, wealth is useless; deceived by wealth, they have lost their way.*
*swcau swihbu syvIAY gurmuiK AkQo kwiQ ]6] (59-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*saacha-o saahib sayvee-ai gurmukh aktho kaath. ||6||*
*So serve the True Lord; become Gurmukh, and speak the Unspoken. ||6||*
*AwvY jwie BvweIAY pieAY ikriq kmwie ] (59-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*aavai jaa-ay bhavaa-ee-ai pa-i-ai kirat kamaa-ay.*
*Coming and going, people wander through reincarnation; they act according to their past actions.*
*pUrib iliKAw ikau mytIAY iliKAw lyKu rjwie ] (59-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*poorab likhi-aa ki-o maytee-ai likhi-aa laykh rajaa-ay.*
*How can one's pre-ordained destiny be erased? It is written in accordance with the Lord's Will.*
*ibnu hir nwm n CutIAY gurmiq imlY imlwie ]7] (59-16, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*bin har naam na chhutee-ai gurmat milai milaa-ay. ||7||*
*Without the Name of the Lord, no one can be saved. Through the Guru's Teachings, we are united in His Union. ||7||*
*iqsu ibnu myrw ko nhI ijs kw jIau prwnu ] (59-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*tis bin mayraa ko nahee jis kaa jee-o paraan.*
*Without Him, I have no one to call my own. My soul and my breath of life belong to Him.*
*haumY mmqw jil blau loBu jlau AiBmwnu ] (59-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*ha-umai mamtaa jal bala-o lobh jala-o abhimaan.*
*May my egotism and possessiveness be burnt to ashes, and my greed and egotistical pride consigned to the fire.*
*nwnk sbdu vIcwrIAY pweIAY guxI inDwnu ]8]10] (59-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
*naanak sabad veechaaree-ai paa-ee-ai gunee niDhaan. ||8||10||*
*O Nanak, contemplating the Shabad, the Treasure of Excellence is obtained. ||8||10||*


me neech humbly asking for everybodys forgiveness


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So?*

Introduction to Sikhism - Section II: God and His Universe


----------



## Archived_Member_19

*Re: Is it So?*

<<Amar ji
Anyone who is subject to life and Death is not a creator and cannot be a creator. It is the plain assumption that we make while looking at the godhead in sikhi.>>

what if there was no creator and you just manifested your self?


----------



## Archived_member2

*Re: Is it So?*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Surinder Jee!

Thanks for referring many Vaaks from Gurdev explaining that there is no difference in God and His creation.
Also we find many occasions in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee when the reverend Gurus suggest singing, praying, worshiping and praising God.
This must explain an understanding from a different conscious level.
Can someone please clear it if this is contradictory or the same thing from the true Gurus aspect?


Balbir Singh


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So??*



Sikh80 said:


> Thanks for your reply. However, it answers the question only in a round about manner. You have treated all the guru sahibaan as different. They are 'one jot' as they had the same spirit hence treating the gurus as separate entities/gurus in the present context may not be ok.
> 
> Secondly, it is stated in Gurbani itself that the Creator Himself cannot take the route of Incarnation. _I presume that the translation is incorrect._ If we take the translation at face value the entire edifice of sikhi will have to undergo a change. Guru Nanak ji cannot be God/creator as he has stated many things in the eulogisation of the Almighty.One cannot go on praising oneself.It becomes superfluous and redundant and meaningless. Incidently it is in Gurbani that it is stated that the Creator creates Himself. If we take Guru Nanak as the Creator the above does not stand to truth as Guru nanak did not create HIMself.
> 
> I think it would be better if some third person guides us. So far as I am concerned I take it as a case of wrong translation /interpretation.
> The following line from japu ji sahib shows that Guru nanak ji cannot be the creator.
> 
> 
> siq suhwxu sdw min cwau ] (4-16, jpu, mÚ 1)
> He is Beautiful, True and Eternally Joyful.
> and
> 
> jw krqw isrTI kau swjy Awpy jwxY soeI ] (4-19, jpu, mÚ 1)
> The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.
> 
> 
> Let some senior member may help and guide us.
> I would reiterate that it is only a case of misinterpretation.


If the creator is the Supreme Being, with powers levels beyond infinity. Being infinite him/herself, and there is nothing he/she can not do, then why can't he/she incarnate? :wink:


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So?*

Answereing Bhagat Singh,


Because Creator creates and never dies.

Hence HE shall not take the route where there is life and death.


----------



## Archived_Member_19

*Re: Is it So?*

what if i say you that death is not an "end" ?

please understand that life and death are two sides of same coin.

nothing is permanent....


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So?*



amarsanghera said:


> what if i say you that death is not an "end" ?
> 
> please understand that life and death are two sides of same coin.
> 
> nothing is permanent....


 
Ok. pl. continue that you want to arrive at.


----------



## Archived_member2

*Re: Is it So?*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Some prefer to write "*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Sache Paatshah De Paavan Bachan.*"
In my view the correct expression is "*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Sache Paatshah De Paavan Printed words.*"

Perhaps someone may guide the readers why Naanak Jee has used the word Naanaku twice in this Vaak.

guru nwnku nwnku hir soie ]4]7]9] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
gu{ nwnku nwnku hir soe ] 
guru naanaku naanaku hari soi. ||



Balbir Singh


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So?*

You have a very valid point there. We will have to sit with some grammar of Gurbani and take the help Of it.

In the meantime I am posting the following that clearly states that The creator and creativity etc.
pauVI ] (957-6)
Pauree:
QtxhwrY Qwtu Awpy hI QitAw ] (957-6, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
The Creator Lord created the Creation.
Awpy pUrw swhu Awpy hI KitAw ] (957-6, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
He Himself is the perfect Banker; He Himself earns His profit.
Awpy kir pwswru Awpy rMg ritAw ] (957-6, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
He Himself made the expansive Universe; He Himself is imbued with joy.
kudriq kIm n pwie AlK bRhmitAw ] (957-7, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
The value of God's almighty creative power cannot be estimated.
Agm AQwh byAMq prY pritAw ] (957-7, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
He is inaccessible, unfathomable, endless, the ****hest of the far.
Awpy vf pwiqswhu Awip vjIritAw ] (957-8, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
He Himself is the greatest Emperor; He Himself is His own Prime Minister.
koie n jwxY kIm kyvfu mitAw ] (957-8, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
No one knows His worth, or the greatness of His resting place.
scw swihbu Awip gurmuiK prgitAw ]1] (957-8, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
He Himself is our True Lord and Master. He reveals Himself to the Gurmukh. ||1||


It is amply clear that the creator is a separate entity altogether and is not to be mixed with the Gurus .They might have merged with the almighty but they came thru. the route of the 'time' /kaal.' hence they cannot be the creator.

added****************************
Besides the above the following lines are also clear indicator of the thing being discussed.
guir pUrY mylwieAw jq dyKw qq soie ](957-12, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
The Perfect Guru has united me with Him; wherever I look, there He is.
 jn nwnk so pRBu syivAw iqsu jyvfu Avru n koie ]2] (957-13, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
Servant Nanak serves that God; there is no other as great as He is. ||2||


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So?*

It is from the Bani Of Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj that further establishes that he has obtained the creator who is unfathomable. The Term obtained has been retained here as I do not want to alter the translator's version. None theless the point is proved that Gurus were not Creator.

DMnu su idnsu sMjogVw ijqu ifTw gur drswru ] (958-10, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
blessed is that day, and that opportunity, when I gazed upon the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan.
mn kIAw ieCw pUrIAw hir pwieAw Agm Apwru ] (958-11, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
The mind's desires are fulfilled, when the inaccessible, unfathomable Lord is obtained.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So?*

 jwxY ibrQw jIA kI kdy n moVY rMgu ] (958-17, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
He alone knows the state of my soul; He never ignores my love.
 hir ieko myrw mslqI BMnx GVn smrQu ] (958-18, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
He is my only counselor, all-powerful to destroy and create.
 hir ieko myrw dwqwru hY isir dwiqAw jg hQu ] (958-18, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
The Lord is my only Giver. He places His hand upon the heads of the generous in the world.
 hir ieksY dI mY tyk hY jo isir sBnw smrQu ] (958-19, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
I take the Support of the One Lord alone; He is all-powerful, over the heads of all.
 siqguir sMqu imlwieAwmsqik Dir kY hQu ] (958-19, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
The Saint, the True Guru, has united me with the Lord. He placed His hand on my forehead.
THese are also incontinuity of the above Post.


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So?*

*In this thread what me neech is learning that some are saying-Guru is not the Creator. SO IT MEANS THEY KNOW WHAT EXACTLY THE CREATOR IS. WOW: that's funny as these same fellows have said before 'they dont', and actually were questioning the same thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


*First Post States: this person doubts the translations (from the same source)*

*my observation: that translation does not suit his belief.*


*Recent Posts States: this person believes the translations (from the same source)............*
*my observation: because he can easily manipulate the meaning to suit his argument*


*very funny*


----------



## Archived_member2

*Re: Is it So?*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Some plead. Guru Is God.
Gurdev says Guru is EEsar, Guru is Gorakh Barmaa and Guru is Parbatee Maaee.

May I ask if Parbatee Maaee is God? Perhaps God Mom (Maaee) on this forum can guide readers?


Balbir Singh


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So?*

Awpy kIqo rcnu Awpy hI riqAw ] (966-10, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
He Himself created the Universe; He Himself imbues it.
Awpy hoieE ieku Awpy bhu BiqAw ] (966-10, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
He Himself is One, and He Himself has numerous forms.
Awpy sBnw mMiJ Awpy bwhrw ] (966-11, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
He Himself is within all, and He Himself is beyond them.
Awpy jwxih dUir Awpy hI jwhrw ] (966-11, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
He Himself is known to be far away, and He Himself is right here.
Awpy hovih gupqu Awpy prgtIAY ] (966-11, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
He Himself is hidden, and He Himself is revealed.
kImiq iksY n pwie qyrI QtIAY ] (966-12, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
No one can estimate the value of Your Creation, Lord.
gihr gMBIru AQwhu Apwru Agxqu qUM ] (966-12, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
You are deep and profound, unfathomable, infinite and invaluable.
nwnk vrqY ieku ieko ieku qUM ]22]1]2] suDu ] (966-13, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
O Nanak, the One Lord is all-pervading. You are the One and only. ||22||1||2|| Sudh||

HI surinder Ji,
The above lines are from Granth sahib ji maharaj where in The Gurus/ Bhagats are stating clearly that THE creator HIMSELF has created this creation. Nanak ji was also HIS creation. Nanak ji cannot be the creator howsoever great, eulogisation be done by the sikhs.


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So?*




			
				sikh 80 said:
			
		

> Nanak ji cannot be the creator howsoever great, eulogisation be done by the sikhs.


 
*Oh yes, this is not an EULOGISATION. It is a fact that is OUR DHAN DHAN GURU SAHIBAAN is teaching us. Every Guru is God/Nirankaar.* 

*You are imagining that Guru is not God, not me neech or what you calling Sikh.*

*So it makes you a non-Sikh, based on your statement. Wow, thanks*


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So?*



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Oh yes, this is not an EULOGISATION. It is a fact that is OUR DHAN DHAN GURU SAHIBAAN is teaching us. Every Guru is God/Nirankaar.*


You say All is God and therefore Guru Jis are God. But that means you and I are God as well. Do you agree that based on your logic, you and I are God?



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *You are imagining that Guru is not God, not me neech or what you calling Sikh.*
> 
> *So it makes you a non-Sikh, based on your statement. Wow, thanks*



If being a non-Sikh means thinking that Gurus cannot be compared to God then I am happy being a non-Sikh. Thank you.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So?*

By making remarks against any one you do not become a better person. It is better that you stick to the comments on Gurbani and avoid personal scaths. Some people have some compulsions and they cannot stop themselves from slandering. I hope you have no such compulsions. On one hand you are stating that personal attacks are made by the members and in the same breath you indulge yourself in the same.
Funny Surinder,


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So?*



Sikh80 said:


> Answereing Bhagat Singh,
> 
> 
> Because Creator creates and never dies.
> 
> Hence HE shall not take the route where there is life and death.


 so there is something more powerful than the creator?
according to you it is life and death. even the creator is bound by laws. He/She just chooses to not step in? How does this make him the ALMIGHTY then?? So there is somthing that the creator cannot do? :shifty:
I am assuming that the Creator is fact also the Supreme Being(SB). Unless they are different then we have two Gods.:whisling: just sumtin to think about...


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So?*

Surinder ji,


There is only ONE GOD/Creator.
I wish Guru Nanak ji was that.

But It is a wish only.The Bottom line ;One can be GOD- LIKE but not GOD else we will have mutiple GODS a situation where we have more than one GOD that is against the sikh philosphy. I think you know this but are indulging in this just to irritate.


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So?*



Sikh80 said:


> Surinder ji,
> 
> 
> There is only ONE GOD/Creator.
> I wish Guru Nanak ji was that.
> 
> But It is a wish only.The Bottom line ;One can be GOD- LIKE but not GOD else we will have mutiple GODS a situation where we have more than one GOD that is against the sikh philosphy. I think you know this but are indulging in this just to irritate.


I think Surinder Ji is hindu. :}{}{}:


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So?*

*KHOOB BAHUT KHOOB, me neech very well know that Guru Di Agyaa na mannan wala kon hai..........*


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So?*

Surinder ji,
You have not given your comment on the 2 posts that i have made. Kindly do.


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So?*

*Surinder laee ta GOD IS GURU AND GURU IS GOD................  what else you want from me neech...............*


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So?*



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Surinder laee ta GOD IS GURU AND GURU IS GOD................  what else you want from me neech...............*


If you are going to debate expect people to present a different view. If you are trying to learn than be more open minded. What if Guru is not God?:hmm: What can you do about that? Try using some logic and common sense like Guru Nanak suggests.


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So?*

*Guru is God, and Guru is GOD............* 

*Guru is teaching already..........  Solid- Puran Guru- Nirankaar*


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So?*

Surinder ji,
The thread is specifically to explore If Nanak Dev ji was Creator or not. Your comments are skewed and does give an impression that you bow to the Gurbani and fall in line with all that is stated to establish that Nanak ji and Creator are two separate entities. Nanak ji merged in the Creator . But The creator is the supreme and was and shall be as HE is saibhung.


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So?*

*For me neech all the 11 GURUS ARE Nirankaar....Supreme ONE*


*as long as there is duality, it seems like there are seperate entities. and Gurbani verywell tells about it. As well tells about -HOW TO GET OUT OF THAT DUALITY so that one can see the TRUTH- ALL IS GOD.......... GURU IS GOD...........*

*EK TU HEE EK TU HEE*

*for me neech you are included there, it may sound stupid to you but THIS IS MY TRUTH.................*


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Is it So?*

There's nothing stupid about this. I could write pages about this, Surinder Ji - but for whom ?


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So?*

*so you suggesting we should sit back and let our brothers and sisters believe opposite to what Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib is teaching....................  OK*


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So?*

*One Question: what is the purpose of this Network then!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Archived_member2

*Re: Is it So?*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Words Guru and Kartaa occur in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. The word Guru is the Sabad Guru that creates further all developments and experiences. This blessing is for those who have received true Naam as Prasaad by the Grace of God.

It is surely not the perishable body of the printed paper or that of a human being.

I am sorry to observe what wrong preaching can result to.


Balbir Singh


----------



## simpy

*Re: Is it So?*

*So Veer Balbir Singh Ji are you suggesting Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is preaching us wrong............  Wow..*


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So?*



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *For me neech all the 11 GURUS ARE Nirankaar....Supreme ONE*
> 
> 
> *as long as there is duality, it seems like there are seperate entities. and Gurbani verywell tells about it. As well tells about -HOW TO GET OUT OF THAT DUALITY so that one can see the TRUTH- ALL IS GOD.......... GURU IS GOD...........*
> 
> *EK TU HEE EK TU HEE*
> 
> *for me neech you are included there, it may sound stupid to you but THIS IS MY TRUTH.................*



What duality are you talking about?? Guru Nanak is a human. God is God. Guru Nanak guides us to God.
 I don't see any duality in that. How does Guru Nanak become a comparable entity to God??


----------



## Archived_member2

*Re: Is it So?*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Surinder Jee!

Quote "So Veer Balbir Singh Ji are you suggesting Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is preaching us wrong............ Wow.."
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is not preaching. The true Gurus are singing Truth in ecstasy. Imitating them may disturb them specially when someone does not know the origin of their Hymns and notes.

I have not found one instant where Gurdev has suggested one to repeat their written Hymns to achieve any material or spiritual goal. May I ask why so many lectures are available on Internet from Baabaas suggesting to repeat Japujee or other Paaths even Akhand Paaths? Please do not sell this behavior on the name of true Gurus. This is not Sikhi.
What will happen to a person if someone goes on repeating a suggestion from Gurdev in somebody's ears. Should a person go on repeating suggestions from the reverend Gurus, for example 'simar manaa'?
These Baabaas are the living examples of ignorance. Exactly so funny are their explanations.

This is not the Sikhi.  True Gurus have given to the world.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib is one of the most valuable God's Gifts to humankind. Rarely someone has understood it, in my experience.

I may be leaving tomorrow for the true Guru's Mission. I wish all great Satsangs in coming days also. 


Balbir Singh


----------



## AmbarDhara

*Re: Is it So?*

gurbani gavo bhaee
oh safal sada sukh daaee


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So?*



Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Surinder Jee!
> 
> Quote "So Veer Balbir Singh Ji are you suggesting Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is preaching us wrong............ Wow.."
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is not preaching. The true Gurus are singing Truth in ecstasy. Imitating them may disturb them specially when someone does not know the origin of their Hymns and notes.
> 
> I have not found one instant where Gurdev has suggested one to repeat their written Hymns to achieve any material or spiritual goal. May I ask why so many lectures are available on Internet from Baabaas suggesting to repeat Japujee or other Paaths even Akhand Paaths? Please do not sell this behavior on the name of true Gurus. This is not Sikhi.
> What will happen to a person if someone goes on repeating a suggestion from Gurdev in somebody's ears. Should a person go on repeating suggestions from the reverend Gurus, for example 'simar manaa'?
> These Baabaas are the living examples of ignorance. Exactly so funny are their explanations.
> 
> This is not the Sikhi. True Gurus have given to the world.
> 
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib is one of the most valuable God's Gifts to humankind. Rarely someone has understood it, in my experience.
> 
> I may be leaving tomorrow for the true Guru's Mission. I wish all great Satsangs in coming days also.
> 
> 
> Balbir Singh


Very well said Balbir Singh JI.


----------



## AmbarDhara

*Re: Is it So?*

What is the meaning of the Shabad:

"gurbani gavo bhaee", can somebody translate it for me please


----------



## kaur-1

*Re: Is it So?*



Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Surinder Jee!
> 
> Quote "So Veer Balbir Singh Ji are you suggesting Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is preaching us wrong............ Wow.."
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is not preaching. The true Gurus are singing Truth in ecstasy. Imitating them may disturb them specially when someone does not know the origin of their Hymns and notes.
> 
> I have not found one instant where Gurdev has suggested one to repeat their written Hymns to achieve any material or spiritual goal. May I ask why so many lectures are available on Internet from Baabaas suggesting to repeat Japujee or other Paaths even Akhand Paaths? Please do not sell this behavior on the name of true Gurus. This is not Sikhi.
> What will happen to a person if someone goes on repeating a suggestion from Gurdev in somebody's ears. Should a person go on repeating suggestions from the reverend Gurus, for example 'simar manaa'?
> These Baabaas are the living examples of ignorance. Exactly so funny are their explanations.



Your statement, alas, is confusing to say the least - even in most part, incorrect and misleading.!!


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So?*



AmbarDhara said:


> What is the meaning of the Shabad:
> 
> "gurbani gavo bhaee", can somebody translate it for me please


Can you provide the whole shabad please?


----------



## AmbarDhara

*Re: Is it So?*

Bhagat Singh Ji if you dont know the whole Shabad from Gurbani then what are you doing in Gurbani Vichar Section


----------



## Archived_member2

*Re: Is it So?*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and AmbarDhara Jee!

Welcome to the Forum. Thanks for your impulse.

Gur is the knowledge, technique or way. Baanee is the speech or spoken word.
Gurbaanee is the technique of the spoken words.
The true Gurus often use the word Gurbaanee but nowhere they confirm that it is exclusively their spoken words or the written version of their praise Hymns.
All the Gurus suggest all to receive it from the Sat Guroo, Sadhu or Saint.

The true Guroo transfers the technique of Naam Simran through His speech. Singing with Him one reveals the technique. That is always a success and soothing. This results in the meditation on that Naam. One receives it because of earlier Karmas.

Guru Arjan Dev is singing.

gurbwxI gwvh BweI ]
gurbaanee gaavah bhaa-ee.

Eh sPl sdw suKdweI ]
oh safal sadaa sukh-daa-ee.

nwnk nwmu iDAwieAw ]
naanak naamu Dhiaa-i-aa.

pUrib iliKAw pwieAw ]2]17]81] (19, soriT, gurU Arjn dyv) 
poorab likhiaa paaiaa. ||2||17||81|| (SGGS Ang 628-19, Sorathi, Guru Arjan Dev)

**************

Guru Amardaas Jee is singing.

ibnu gur iknY n pwieE ibrQw jnmu gvwie ]
ibnu gur iknY n pweAo ibrQw jnmu gvwe ]
binu gur kinai na paaio birthaa janamu gavaai. SGGS Ang 33-15.
Without Gur no one has received. Vainly birth is lost.

Please ponder. Before the time of the Gurus fortunate persons received the knowledge (Gur) of Naam Simran too. During the first four Gurus they also transferred this knowledge to many. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee came in written or printed form later though.

Today Baabaas and preachers have the printed Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee but the Gur of true Naam Simran is lost. 
Does it play any role for them till their worldly business is in tact?

**************

The universal truth is the spoken Gur through the mouth of the Sat Guroo, Sadhu or Saint. This is eternal.
The printed matter comes into existence and perishes.


Balbir Singh


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So?*



AmbarDhara said:


> Bhagat Singh Ji if you dont know the whole Shabad from Gurbani then what are you doing in Gurbani Vichar Section


AmbarDhara, I am here to learn. I cannot learn if my teacher only gives me one line ffrom the whole paragraph and asks me to understand the whole paragraph.


----------



## AmbarDhara

*Re: Is it So?*

Bhagat Singh, I see that you are teaching all the things against SGGS Ji. I dont see you learning at all.


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So?*



AmbarDhara said:


> Bhagat Singh, I see that you are teaching all the things against SGGS Ji. I dont see you learning at all.


If a teacher says something, and the student believes something else and questions back! Believe it or not, the student is ACTUALLY learning! It might not sound like he/she is but its true. 
Questioning things i how I learn! :hmm:

Ok so what am I saying against SGGS. Compile it all into one post. So I can see my errors. After all if the student(sikh) is wrong, he/she will accept it ,Right?


----------



## AmbarDhara

*Re: Is it So?*

This will be a lot of work. I will do it some other time.


----------



## BhagatSingh

*Re: Is it So?*



AmbarDhara said:


> This will be a lot of work. I will do it some other time.


Please do!


----------



## AmbarDhara

*Re: Is it So?*

Is it so?????

I believe it is. Guru Nanak is God. SGGS is telling us.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So?*

In the end ,I sum up by the shabad stated in great humility by 10th Guru:

Main Hoon Param Purukh ko Dasa...
DEkhan aayo Jagat Tamasha..
Jo Humko Parmeshwar Uchre..
te sab Narak ..........................


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Is it So?*

Is it so Sikh 80. Can you tell me the panna # in Guru Granth where it says so.

Guru Granth says-

gur kw sbdu n mytY koie ] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
*No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.*
gurunwnku nwnku hir soie ]4]7]9] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
*Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



*and no body can erase that truth*


*Sach Sunaesee Sach Ki Bela *


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Is it So?*



			
				AmbarDhara said:
			
		

> I believe it is. Guru Nanak is God. SGGS is telling us.


 
exactly


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Is it So?*

 hukmI hovin Awkwr hukmu n kihAw jweI ] (1-7, jpu, mÚ 1)
By His Command, bodies are created; His Command cannot be described.
This is the first Bani Of Jap ji sahib wherin Nanak ji is telling about the Creator. I do not think Nanak dev ji will tell a lie.


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

True Guru is the only Boat:




			
				Surinder Kaur Cheema said:
			
		

> *isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ] (59-6)*
> *sireeraag mehlaa 1.*
> *Siree Raag, First Mehl:*
> *siqguru pUrw jy imlY pweIAY rqnu bIcwru ] (59-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *satgur pooraa jay milai paa-ee-ai ratan beechaar.*
> *Meeting the Perfect True Guru, we find the jewel of meditative reflection.*
> *mnu dIjY gur Awpxy pweIAY srb ipAwru ] (59-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *man deejai gur aapnay paa-ee-ai sarab pi-aar.*
> *Surrendering our minds to our Guru, we find universal love.*
> *mukiq pdwrQu pweIAY Avgx mytxhwru ]1] (59-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai avgan maytanhaar. ||1||*
> *We find the wealth of liberation, and our demerits are erased. ||1||*
> *BweI ry gur ibnu igAwnu n hoie ] (59-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *bhaa-ee ray gur bin gi-aan na ho-ay.*
> *O Siblings of Destiny, without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom.*
> *pUChu bRhmy nwrdY byd ibAwsY koie ]1] rhwau ] (59-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *poochhahu barahmay naardai bayd bi-aasai ko-ay. ||1|| rahaa-o.*
> *Go and ask Brahma, Naarad and Vyaas, the writer of the Vedas. ||1||Pause||*
> *igAwnu iDAwnu Duin jwxIAY AkQu khwvY soie ] (59-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *gi-aan Dhi-aan Dhun jaanee-ai akath kahaavai so-ay.*
> *Know that from the vibration of the Word, we obtain spiritual wisdom and meditation. Through it, we speak the Unspoken.*
> *sPilE ibrKu hrIAwvlw Cwv GxyrI hoie ] (59-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *safli-o birakh haree-aavlaa chhaav ghanayree ho-ay.*
> *He is the fruit-bearing Tree, luxuriantly green with abundant shade.*
> *lwl jvyhr mwxkI gur BMfwrY soie ]2] (59-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *laal javayhar maankee gur bhandaarai so-ay. ||2||*
> *The rubies, jewels and emeralds are in the Guru's Treasury. ||2||*
> *gur BMfwrY pweIAY inrml nwm ipAwru ] (59-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *gur bhandaarai paa-ee-ai nirmal naam pi-aar.*
> *From the Guru's Treasury, we receive the Love of the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord.*
> *swco vKru sMcIAY pUrY krim Apwru ] (59-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *saacho vakhar sanchee-ai poorai karam apaar.*
> *We gather in the True Merchandise, through the Perfect Grace of the Infinite.*
> *suKdwqw duK mytxo siqguru Asur sMGwru ]3] (59-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *sukh-daata dukh maytno satgur asur sanghaar. ||3||*
> *The True Guru is the Giver of peace, the Dispeller of pain, the Destroyer of demons. ||3||*
> *Bvjlu ibKmu frwvxo nw kMDI nw pwru ] (59-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *bhavjal bikham daraavno naa kanDhee naa paar.*
> *The terrifying world-ocean is difficult and dreadful; there is no shore on this side or the one beyond.*
> *nw byVI nw qulhVw nw iqsu vMJu mlwru ] (59-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *naa bayrhee naa tulharhaa naa tis vanjh malaar.*
> *There is no boat, no raft, no oars and no boatman.*
> *siqguru BY kw boihQw ndrI pwir auqwru ]4] (59-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *satgur bhai kaa bohithaa nadree paar utaar. ||4||*
> *The True Guru is the only boat on this terrifying ocean. His Glance of Grace carries us across. ||4||*
> *ieku iqlu ipAwrw ivsrY duKu lwgY suKu jwie ] (59-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *ik til pi-aaraa visrai dukh laagai sukh jaa-ay.*
> *If I forget my Beloved, even for an instant, suffering overtakes me and peace departs.*
> *ijhvw jlau jlwvxI nwmu n jpY rswie ] (59-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *jihvaa jala-o jalaavanee naam na japai rasaa-ay.*
> *Let that tongue be burnt in flames, which does not chant the Naam with love.*
> *Gtu ibnsY duKu Aglo jmu pkVY pCuqwie ]5] (59-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *ghat binsai dukh aglo jam pakrhai pachhutaa-ay. ||5||*
> *When the pitcher of the body bursts, there is terrible pain; those who are caught by the Minister of Death regret and repent. ||5||*
> *myrI myrI kir gey qnu Dnu klqu n swiQ ] (59-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *mayree mayree kar ga-ay tan Dhan kalat na saath.*
> *Crying out, "Mine! Mine!", they have departed, but their bodies, their wealth, and their wives did not go with them.*
> *ibnu nwvY Dnu bwid hY BUlo mwrig AwiQ ] (59-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *bin naavai Dhan baad hai bhoolo maarag aath.*
> *Without the Name, wealth is useless; deceived by wealth, they have lost their way.*
> *swcau swihbu syvIAY gurmuiK AkQo kwiQ ]6] (59-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *saacha-o saahib sayvee-ai gurmukh aktho kaath. ||6||*
> *So serve the True Lord; become Gurmukh, and speak the Unspoken. ||6||*
> *AwvY jwie BvweIAY pieAY ikriq kmwie ] (59-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *aavai jaa-ay bhavaa-ee-ai pa-i-ai kirat kamaa-ay.*
> *Coming and going, people wander through reincarnation; they act according to their past actions.*
> *pUrib iliKAw ikau mytIAY iliKAw lyKu rjwie ] (59-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *poorab likhi-aa ki-o maytee-ai likhi-aa laykh rajaa-ay.*
> *How can one's pre-ordained destiny be erased? It is written in accordance with the Lord's Will.*
> *ibnu hir nwm n CutIAY gurmiq imlY imlwie ]7] (59-16, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *bin har naam na chhutee-ai gurmat milai milaa-ay. ||7||*
> *Without the Name of the Lord, no one can be saved. Through the Guru's Teachings, we are united in His Union. ||7||*
> *iqsu ibnu myrw ko nhI ijs kw jIau prwnu ] (59-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *tis bin mayraa ko nahee jis kaa jee-o paraan.*
> *Without Him, I have no one to call my own. My soul and my breath of life belong to Him.*
> *haumY mmqw jil blau loBu jlau AiBmwnu ] (59-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *ha-umai mamtaa jal bala-o lobh jala-o abhimaan.*
> *May my egotism and possessiveness be burnt to ashes, and my greed and egotistical pride consigned to the fire.*
> *nwnk sbdu vIcwrIAY pweIAY guxI inDwnu ]8]10] (59-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)*
> *naanak sabad veechaaree-ai paa-ee-ai gunee niDhaan. ||8||10||*
> *O Nanak, contemplating the Shabad, the Treasure of Excellence is obtained. ||8||10||*
> 
> 
> me neech humbly asking for everybodys forgiveness


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

hukmI hovin jIA hukim imlY vifAweI ] (1-8, jpu, mÚ 1)
By His Command, souls come into being; by His Command, glory and greatness are obtained.
hukmI auqmu nIcu hukim iliK duK suK pweIAih ] (1-8, jpu, mÚ 1)
By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained.
ieknw hukmI bKsIs ieik hukmI sdw BvweIAih ] (1-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
Some, by His Command, are blessed and forgiven; others, by His Command, wander aimlessly forever.
hukmY AMdir sBu ko bwhir hukm n koie ] (1-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.
********************************************************

*In the above :Guru Nanak Dev Ji is  in the praise Of the Sole Creator.*
**********************************************************

Can a person who is subject to life and Death be a creator? I do not think so. It is against the sikhi and sikhism and philosphy rather against sikhi.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

 nwnk hukmY jy buJY q haumY khY n koie ]2](1-10, jpu, mÚ 1)
O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego. ||2||
 gwvY ko qwxu hovY iksY qwxu ] (1-10, jpu, mÚ 1)
Some sing of His Power-who has that Power?
 gwvY ko dwiq jwxY nIswxu ] (1-11, jpu, mÚ 1)
Some sing of His Gifts, and know His Sign and Insignia.
 gwvY ko gux vifAweIAw cwr ] (1-11, jpu, mÚ 1)
Some sing of His Glorious Virtues, Greatness and Beauty.
 gwvY ko ividAw ivKmu vIcwru ] (1-11, jpu, mÚ 1)
Some sing of knowledge obtained of Him, through difficult philosophical studies.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Awpn Awip Awip pRBu Twkuru pRBu Awpy isRsit svwry ] (982-14, nt, mÚ 4)
God, our Lord and Master, is Himself by Himself; God Himself embellishes the universe.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

jn nwnk Awpy Awip sBu vrqY kir ik®pw Awip insqwry ]8]4] (982-15, nt, mÚ 4)
O servant Nanak, He Himself is all-pervading; in His Mercy, He Himself emancipates all. ||8||4||


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

nt mhlw 4 ] (982-15)
Nat, Fourth Mehl:
 rwm kir ikrpw lyhu aubwry ] (982-16, nt, mÚ 4)
Grant Your Grace, Lord, and save me,


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

 siqgur kI inq srDw lwgI mo kau hir guru myil svwry ]1] (982-17, nt, mÚ 4)
I long constantly for the True Guru. Lead me to meet the Guru, O Lord, that I may be exalted and embellished. ||1||
[readers may check as who has authored these lines]


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

[SIZE=-1]Sikh Missionary Society(U.K.) - Sikhism - Gurus - Guru Nanak Dev[/SIZE]

Kindly Google out.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-gurus/9029-was-guru-nanak-god.html


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

In praise of the Lord, Guru Nanak uttered; 
"There is but One God, His name is Truth, He is the Creator, He fears none, he is without hate, He never dies, He is beyond the cycle of births and death, He is self illuminated, He is realized by the kindness of the True Guru. He was True in the beginning, He was True when the ages commenced and has ever been True, He is also True now." (Japji) 

The Sikhism Home Page: Guru Nanak Dev


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

The Sikhism Home Page: Guru Nanak Dev


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

 QwipAw n jwie kIqw n hoie ] (2-6, jpu, mÚ 1)
He cannot be established, He cannot be created.
 Awpy Awip inrMjnu soie ] (2-7, jpu, mÚ 1)
He Himself is Immaculate and Pure.
 ijin syivAw iqin pwieAw mwnu ] (2-7, jpu, mÚ 1)
Those who serve Him are honored.
 nwnk gwvIAY guxI inDwnu ] (2-7, jpu, mÚ 1)
O Nanak, sing of the Lord, the Treasure of Excellence.
 gwvIAY suxIAY min rKIAY Bwau ] (2-8, jpu, mÚ 1)
Sing, and listen, and let your mind be filled with love.
 duKu prhir suKu Gir lY jwie ] (2-8, jpu, mÚ 1)
Your pain shall be sent far away, and peace shall come to your home.
 gurmuiK nwdM gurmuiK vydM gurmuiK rihAw smweI ] (2-8, jpu, mÚ 1)
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.
Guru Nanak Dev Ji In eulogisation Of The Creator


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Guru Nanak Dev ji cannot be the Primal Lord or the creator.The title Of this thread was changed from 'Is It so.......???" to the present Title that 'Nanak was the guru and Nanak was the Lord/creator'. It is totally against the sikhi philosphy.

I do not know the reason of Changing the thread name. No intimation was sent to the starter Of the thread.

The name Of the thread should be made as was when initiated so that misinterpretation is avoided. The title and the content Of the thread are not in sync.

It is not known how to add new post. It generates an automerged double post.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

gurunwnku nwnku hir soie ]4]7]9] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

The thread was made to rest for few days on account of the fact that whenever I wanted to write the message box used to get merged with the previous one and showed the post as 'automated doublepost..I am sorry for this.
I have re-initiated the post .Was he really A God/Is Nanak -1 really a god.?
gur nwnk dyv goivMd rUp ]8]1] (1192-13, bsMqu, mÚ 5)
*Guru Nanak Dayv is the Embodiment of the Lord of the Universe. ||8||1||*


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## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sikh 80 ji

I can take a look back and see when the title was changed. But to clear up a little confusion. When a thread is modified, usually but not always, it is moved first to the Leaders Lounge, where mods will discuss the best way to proceed. Usually a change happens in a day or two. But when the thread is moved it has a double life because now it is in Leaders and it is out in the forum too. 

So you can still add to the thread. 

The only time this wouldn't be so is when a thread is so controversial that mods have to discuss what to do about it. Then the thread may be taken out of circulation for a time. 

If you want to learn how to delete your own post let one of us know and we can tell you how. No apology needed.


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## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sikh80 ji,

Aman Singh Ji - Administrator of SPN - left you a note in the thread Understanding Gurbani - 4. If you're finding difficulty finding the thread, try this title :
*Great peace and contentment come through the Guru's Word*
It would be beneficial to you and all visitors to read your contributions in context of a relevant title.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Hi Namjap ji,

Yes, I have many questions to ask about Gurbani.I shall begin soon. Hope you shall atend alongwith aad ji.


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Excerpt from the book "*LIVING REALITY*_ - Questions and Answers about life, under the guidance of The Siri Guru Granth Sahib_" by Bibiji Inderjit Kaur Khalsa, Ph.D 
Guru is a teacher or enlightener. One who brings from dark to light. Guru is an idea or and institution, not a person. However, a person can attain this level of clarity of reality. The Guru 
*GURU*, a *spiritual guide* or preceptor. The term, long used in the Indian religious tradition, has a special connotation in the Sikh system. The Sikh faith itself signifies discipleship, the word sikh (*sisya* in Sanskrit and *sissa* or *sekha* in Pali) meaning *pupil* or *learner*. The concept of *Guru*, the teacher or enlightener, is thus central to Sikhism. 

The *Guru*, according to Sikh belief, is the vital link in man’s spiritual progress. He is the teacher who shows the way. He is not an intercessor, but exemplar and guide. He is no avatar or God’s incarnation, but it is through him that God instructs men. He is the perfectly realized soul; at the same time, he is capable of leading the believers to the highest state of spiritual enlightenment. The *Guru* has been called the ladder, the rowboat by means of which one reaches God. He is the revealer of God’s word. Through him God’s word, sabda, enters human history. *The Guru is the voice of God, the Divine self-revelation.* Man turns to the Guru for instruction because of his wisdom and his moral piety. He indicates the path to liberation. It is the Guru who brings the love and nature of God to the believer. It is he who brings that grace of God by which haumai or egoity is mastered. The *Guru* is witness to God’s love of His creation. He is God’s hukam, i.e. Will, made concrete. 

A special figure is employed to describe the transference of the Guruship in the Sikh tradition. This figure helps us understand the true nature of Guru. The Guruship passes from one Guru to the other as one candle lights another. Thus the real Guru is God, for He is the source of all light. It is clear that the *Guru* is not to be confused with the human form (the unlit body). In the Sikh faith which originated in Guru Nanak’s revelation, Ten Gurus held the office. In Sikhism the word Guru is used only for the ten spiritual prophets — Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh, and for none other. Now this office of *Guru* is fulfilled by the Guru Granth Sahib, the Sacred Book, which was so apotheosized by Guru Gobind Singh. 

Various connotations of guru have been given based on different etymological interpretations. One generally accepted in Sikhism is that derived from the syllable gu standing for darkness and ru for its removal. Thus *guru* is he who banishes the darkness of ignorance. According to Sikh belief, guidance of the guru is essential for one’s spiritual enlightenment. 

No particular text dealing with the concept of guru is found in the Sikh Scripture, though scattered references abound. They are often figurative and symbolic but are fully expressive of the pre-eminence accorded to the guru. He has been called a tirtha, place of holy pilgrimage, i.e. purifier; a khevat, the boatman who rows one across the ocean of worldliness; a sarovar, a lake where swans, i.e. holy saints, dwell and pick up pearls of sacred wisdom for food; a samund, ocean which is churned for the gems, for his bani, or inspired word, is itself deep like the ocean and its wisdom can be brought out only after long meditation; a dipak, lamp which lights up the three worlds. In another comparison the Guru is called pilak, elephant controller, as he restrains the mind that is like a mad, romping elephant. He is called data, donor of wisdom; amritsar, the pool of ambrosia of the Name; a basith, one joining the seeker in union with God; joti, the light which illuminates the world. Other comparisons are anjan, collyrium, which sharpens the sight— a metaphor for the spiritual vision; sahjai da khet, the field of equipoise or equanimity; paharua, the watchman who drives away the five thieves, i.e. the five evils. He is sura, the hero whose sword of jnana or knowledge rends the veil of darkness and overcomes ignorance and wickedness, paras, philosopher’s stone which turns base metals into gold, for he transforms ordinary men into holy saints. There are numerous more comparisons. 

The first stanza of Bhavan Akhari, one of Guru Arjan’s compositions in the Guru Granth Sahib, is a paean of glorification in honour of the *Guru* (Gurudev) in exalted classical style. Gurudev, i.e. the divinely inspired Master, is the mother, father; he is the Master and the Lord Supreme. He is friend, relative, brother. He confers on the seeker the name of the Supreme Being, i.e. the mantra, which is infallible. *Gurudev* is the touchstone which surpasses all paras. Gurudev is sacred tirath of the ambrosia of immortality, a bath wherein is a bath in jnana. *Gurudev* is the banisher of sins; he makes the impure pure. *Gurudev* has existed from beginning of the beginning, from the beginning of the ages and has lasted through all the yugas; i.e. his light is eternal. His teachings of the Name alone can save humanity (GG, 250). 

The guidance of the guru is absolutely essential; no spiritual gain can accrue without the guru’s guidance. The view has been constantly reiterated in the Guru Granth Sahib: 

Were there to rise a hundred moons, and a thousand suns besides, 


Without the guru, it will still be pitch darkness 


*(GG, 463) *​



None other than the guru can give enlightenment, 


Nor can happiness without him enter the heart 


*(GG, 650 *​



None has ever realized God, none at all, without the guru’s guidance, 


*declares Guru Nanak (GG, 466) *​


Using figurative language, it is pointed out that no blind man can find the path without the guru, as nobody can reach the housetop without the stairs and no one can cross the river without a boat. As says Guru Amar Das, he who remains without the Guru’s guidance is the rejected one (GG, 435). 
What is gained if the guru’s compassion and guidance are available is thus elaborated: 

By the holy preceptor’s grace is faith perfected; 


By the holy preceptor’s grace is grief cancelled, By the holy preceptor’s grace is suffering annulled; By the holy preceptor’s grace is love of God enjoyed; By the holy preceptor’s grace is union with God attained 


*(GG, 149) *​


The guru cleanses the seeker’s mind of the impurity and brings it to contemplating on the Name. He breaks the shackles of the disciple who turns away from the excitements of the senses. He seeks his welfare and cherishes him as the beloved of his heart. A touch of him erases all blemishes of conduct. The bard Nall refers to the transforming power of the guru thus in symbolic language: 

From base metal I became gold by hearing the words of the Guru. 


Poison was turned into nectar as one uttered the Name revealed by the Guru. From iron a diamond I became by the Guru’s grace. From stone one becomes a diamond in light of the jnana manifested by the Guru. The Guru transformed common timber into fragrant sandalwood and banished all pain and misery. By worshipping the feet of the *Guru*, the foolish and the evil became angels—the noblest of men 


*(GG, 1399) *​


God, who is “without form, colour or feature,” is yet self-communicating. “Through the True Word (sada) is He revealed,” as says Guru Nanak (GG, 597). 
Further: 

Within every heart is hid the Lord; 


In all hearts and bodies is his light. By the guru’s instruction Are the adamantine doors opened. Here sabda and guru are juxtaposed. Often they become one word, sabdaguru, identifying sabda with the guru. The sabda guru is the profound teacher; Without the sabda the world remains in perplexity 


*(GG, 635) *​



Set your mind on the gurshabad


Which is over and above everything else 


*(GG, 904) *​



Through the sabda one recognizes the adorable Lord 


Through the word of the guru (gurvak) Is he imbued with the truth 


*(GG. 55) *​


Shabad is the same as the guru, says Guru Ram Das. *“Bani (the guru’s utterance or word) is the guru and the guru is bani*; in bani are contained all the elixirs” (GG, 982). 
Shabad, ever present, is articulated through the human medium, the guru, so ordained by the Supreme Being. The historical Gurus of the Sikh faith are believed to have uttered the truth vouchsafed to them by God. “As I received the word from the Lord, so do I deliver it,” says Guru Nanak (GG, 722). Guru Arjan: “I know not what to say; I utter only the word I receive from God” (GG, 763). And Guru Ram Das: “Own ye the Sikhs the bani of the guru as truth and truth alone, for the Creator Himself makes him utter it” (GG, 308). 

God, thus, is the primal *Guru* of the whole creation. This is how Guru Nanak discloses the identity of his own Guru. One of his compositions, the Sidha Gosti, is in the form of a discourse with a group of yogis. Therein a yogi puts the question to him, “Who is your Guru? Whose disciple are you?” (GG, 942). To which Guru Nanak replies: 

Shabad is my Guru, and the meditating mind the disciple. 


By dwelling on Him I remain detached. Nanak, God, the cherisher of the world through the ages, is my Guru 


*(GG, 943) *​


Elsewhere Guru Nanak and his successors affirm that the Satiguru is God. 

The light of the pure Lord, the essence of everything, is all-pervading. 


He is the infinite, transcendent Lord, the Supreme God Him Nanak has obtained as his Guru 


*(GG. 599) *​


Accredited is the personality of the bright Guru, God 

Who is brimful of all might. 


Nanak, the Guru is the transcendent Lord Master. He, the ever present, is the Guru 


*(GG, 802) *​


According to Sikh belief there is no difference in spirit between such a guru and God. “The guru is God and God is the Guru; there is no distinction between the two” says Guru Ram Das (GG, 442). “God hath placed Himself within the guru, which He explicitly explaineth” (GG, 466). “Acknowledge the Transcendent God and the guru as one “ (GG, 864). The real personality of a human being is the atman, the physical body is only a temporary dwelling place for the atman which is eternal and is a spark from the Eternal Flame, the Supreme Atman or God. “O my self, you are an embodiment of God’s Light; know your true origin” (GG, 441). Being encased in the physical frame, this atman becomes so involved in the temptations of the physical world that it forgets its reality and loses contact with the Flame of its origin, whereas the atman of the Guru remains ever in tune with that Supreme Light from which it has sparked off. It is thus that God is accepted as residing within the guru. It is in this sense that there is no distinction seen between the guru and God. Guru or satiguru is thus a word with a double meaning in the Guru Granth Sahib. It may refer to God or to His chosen prophet. 

The true Guru is easily distinguished. “The true guru is one who has realized the Supreme Being and whose association saves the disciple” (GG, 286). “The true guru is one in whose heart dwells the Name Divine” (GG, 287). “He by meeting whom the mind is filled with bliss is the true guru. He ends the duality of the mind and leads (the disciple) to the ultimate state of realization” (GG, 168). “Praise, praise be to the true guru who demolishes the fort of dubiety; wondrous, wondrous the true guru who unites the seeker with the Lord” (GG 522). The guru is ordained as such for the liberation of mankind. He transmits the message of God to men and performs acts of grace to save them. The guru is sent by God, but he is not God’s incarnation. “Singed be the tongue which says that the Lord takes birth” (GG, 1136). He is ajuni (unborn); He is saibhan (self-existent). Highest tribute and adoration are reserved for the guru. Devotion to the guru is deemed to be the quintessential quality of a religious man. The pain of separation from the guru and the joy of meeting with him find expression in poetry of deep intensity, as in Guru Arjan’s hymn in Rag Majh (GG, 96-97). 

Guru Nanak was suspicious of human preceptors, pandits, gurus and pirs. They are generally denounced as blind guides, self-styled and traders upon ignorance and superstition. He warns against them: 

Never fall at the feet of one 


Who calls himself guru and pir, and goes begging. He who eats what he earns And from his own hands gives some in charity, He alone knows the true way of life 


*(GG, 1245) *​


The disciple whose guru is blind will not attain the goal (GG, 58). Taking up this thought the third Guru said: 

The disciples whose guru is blind perform only blind deeds. 


They follow their own wayward will, And ever utter the grossest lies 


*(GG, 951) *​


When Guru Nanak speaks of his guru or satguru, it is not such teachers that he has in mind. The true guru is the means of the self-revelation of God. He makes the concealed and ineffable God known. He symbolizes the supreme act of God’s grace in revealing Himself as Truth, as the Name, as the Word. The true guru comes to unite all people of the world and to unite them to the Supreme Being. A false guru creates schisms, divisions and prejudices. The true guru as manifested in the history of the Sikh faith comes to suppress the forces of evil and to rally the forces of good. He comes to resuscitate the values of true religion, dharma. 

The [[Sikh] faith developed under the guidance of ten successive Gurus from 1469 to 1708. Guru Gobind Singh, the Tenth Guru, appointed no personal successor, but bequeathed the guruship to the Holy Book, the Guru Granth Sahib. The holy Word or sabda had always been referred by the Gurus as well as by their disciples as of Divine origin. The Guru was the revealer of the Word. The Word was identified with the Guru when Guru Gobind Singh proclaimed the Holy Book Guru before he passed away. Bards Balvand and Satta theorize that of their three aspects—joti, i.e. light, jugati, way or procedure, and kaia, i.e. body—it is only kaia, the body, that changes as succession passed from one historical *Guru* of the Sikh faith to the next. Joti and jugati remained the same. As sang the bards: “Joti oha jugati sai sahi kaia pheri palatiai” (GG, 966). From their verse emerges this concept of three aspects of the guruship. 

God is the source of all light or consciousness. God kindles that light, in the chosen human body, the Guru; in the joti-aspect the *Guru* is the most enlightened human being, he is in direct communion with God. He communicates the message of God to mankind. He transmits His light to the world. Without the guru, darkness prevails. Says Guru Nanak, “The light of the guru alone dispels darkness” (GG, 463); “The guru is that lamp which illuminates the three worlds” (GG, 137). Balvand and Satta in their hymn in the Guru Granth Sahib affirm that the historical Gurus of the Sikhs shared the same joti (light). The joti got transferred to the successor’s body. Thus, right from 1469, the year of the birth of Guru Nanak, to 1708, the year of the passing away of Guru Gobind Singh, it was one continuing joti manifesting itself in the Ten Gurus. 

This awareness of one light acting through the successive Gurus was so permeating among the Sikhs that Mobid Zulfiqar Ardastani (d. 1670) wrote in his Persian work Dabistan-i-Mazahib, “The Sikhs say that when Nanak left his body, he absorbed himself in Guru Angad who was his most devoted disciple, and that Guru Angad was Nanak himself. After that, at the time of his death, Guru Angad entered into the body of Guru Amar Das. He in the same manner occupied a place in the body of Guru Ram Das who in the same way got united with Guru Arjan. They say that whoever does not acknowledge Guru Arjan to be the very self of Baba Nanak becomes a nonbeliever.” 

Guru Gobind Singh, last of the Gurus, himself wrote in his poetical autobiography called Bachitra Natak, “Nanak assumed the body of Angad. . . Afterwards, Nanak was called Amar Das, as one lamp is lit from another. . . The holy Nanak was revered as Angad, Angad was recognized as Amar Das. And Amar Das became Ram Das. . . When Ram Das was blended with the Divine, he gave the Guruship to Arjan. Arjan appointed Hargobind in his place and Hargobind gave his seat to Har Rai. Har Krishan, his son, then became Guru. After him came Tegh Bahadur.” 

Balvand and Satta further proclaim that the Gurus indicated the same jugati or the method and way of life. The ministry of Guru Nanak combining joti and jugati, took care of both the worlds, the spiritual and the temporal. It was the ministry of deg (charity), and tegh (power), of miri (temporal authority) and piri (spiritual power). According to the bard, Nanak founded sovereignty on the firm rock of truth. . . Nanaku raju chalaia sachu kotu satani niv dai (GG, 966). As Nanak transferred the joti (light) to Lahina who became Guru Angad, he unfurled the umbrella over his head—lahane dharionu chhatu siri, i.e. he invested Lahina with the authority to carry on with the practice he had introduced. The Gurus preached devotion, bhakti or nam (meditation on the Divine Name), recitation of bani, the sacred texts, and kirtan, i.e. singing of the Lord’s glory in sangat or holy assembly. Along with nam, they inculcated the values of kirat, labouring with one’s hands, and vand chhakna, sharing with others the fruit of one’s exertions. The Gurus had carved a clear way for the disciples. 

The Guru’s kaia or body was the repository of God’s light. It was the medium for the articulation of sabda, Word Divine, or God’s message. So it was worthy of reverence. The historical Guru was the focal point of the sangat and the living example of truths he had brought to light. He himself lived up to the teachings he imparted to his disciples. 

The sangat turned into Khalsa in the time of Guru Gobind Singh who introduced khande di pahul, i.e. baptism of the double-edged steel sword. With the formation of the Khalsa, the concept of the Guru Panth formalized. By becoming the sixth person to receive amrit at the hands of the Panj Piare, the Five Beloved, who formed the nucleus of the Khalsa Panth, Guru Gobind Singh testified to his own membership of the Panth, and to having merged himself with it and endowed it with the charisma of his own personality. The bani, always revered by the Sikhs as well as by the Gurus as Word Divine, was however above all. This was something which even the Gurus themselves could not change. It was this superiority which Guru Gobind Singh acknowledged in 1708 when he invested Scripture as Guru. 

The idea of the *Guru* Panth lives on in the Khalsa. But the Khalsa itself could not alter the fundamental tenets of the Sikh faith as enunciated in the bani. The Guru Granth Sahib was, in the presence of the Khalsa, proclaimed *Guru*. The finality of the pronouncement remains a cherished truth for the Sikhs and the Holy Book has since been the perpetual authority, spiritual as well as historical, for them. No living person, however holy or revered, can now have for them the title or status of Guru. For Sikhs the Guru is the teacher, the prophet under direct commission from God—the Ten who have been and the Guru Granth Sahib which is their continuing visible manifestation. 



*THE CONTINUING VISIBLE MANIFESTATION*
*



For a Sikh Guru Nanak Dev Ji and all Gurus is the VOICE OF GOD.

Click to expand...

*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



AmbarDhara said:


> *THE CONTINUING VISIBLE MANIFESTATION*


 

Yes, It is true that Guru's were the embodiment Of God and not god in Themselves. God is infinite without limits ,unfathomable and beyond comprehension.


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

So is Guru.



> God is infinite without limits ,unfathomable and beyond comprehension.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Guru Nanak was born to Mehta kalu in the year 1469. He was subject to death.

God is beyond time.Akal Murat


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Because you think that Guru only lives in that body. Guru Nanak is still alive in infinite number of hearts.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Guru Nanak Dev Ji also authored Mool Mantra where in he stated:


Ek onkaar satnaam Kartapurukh.................

HE IS ONE ,the TRUTH, THE DOER,........................The SAIBHUNG......................SELF EXISTENT.....................

GURU nanak ji may be in the minds of millions,he may be eulogised by us but HE cannot be the CREATOR.
He was only an embodiment of the Creator.
It is as per the Gurbani. One who takes birth is not the creator.

jo min iciq ieku ArwDdy iqn kI brkiq Kwih AsMK kroVy ] (306-3, gauVI, mÚ 4)
*Those who worship and adore the One Lord in their conscious minds - through their generosity, countless millions are fed.*

***************
Auto generate double post
***********************
I shall be grateful if the software is corrected so that this 'auto generation' is stopped and the posting in the thread can be made.
*********************

It is requested that other members may as well post their opinions.


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



> joiq rUip hir Awip gurU nwnku khwXau ] (1408-10)
> jot roop har aap guroo naanak kahaa-ya-o.
> The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.






Bani is Nirankaar: So Nirankaar says that : jot roop har aap guru nanak kahaayoo.


Is anybody greater than Nirankaar on SPN or anywhere else?


I dont believe so.


Nirankaar rocks.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

guru Arjunu purKu pRmwxu pwrQau cwlY nhI ] (1408-7, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, mQurw)
: Guru Arjun is the certified Primal Person; like Arjuna, He never leaves the field of battle.
************************************************

In the above it is stated that Guru Arjun Dev ji is also Primal lord. Thus as per you we have two lords.One  Guru nanak and Guru Arjan dev ji. No. 
But we can only have one. No
Think it over.


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

For me Nirankaar is thinking, have thought and has given me the truth. I dont need to think Sikh80. Who is me in front of Nirankaar? 

Nirankaar rocks:

jot roop har aap guroo naanak kahaa-ya-o.
The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.



gurunwnku nwnku hir soie.

gurunwnku nwnku hir soie 

so it is.




har har naam mayrai paraan vasaa-ay sabh sansaa dookh gavaa-i-aa.
He has enshrined the Name of the Lord, Har, Har within my breath of lfe, and all my doubts and sorrows have departed.

adisat agochar gur bachan Dhi-aa-i-aa pavitar param pad paa-i-aa.
I have meditated on the invisible and unapproachable Lord, through the Guru's Word, and I have obtained the pure, supreme status.

anhad Dhun vaajeh nit vaajay gaa-ee satgur banee.
The unstruck melody resounds, and the instruments ever vibrate, singing the Bani of the True Guru.

naanak daat karee parabh daatai jotee jot samaanee. ||1||
O Nanak, God the Great Giver has given me a gift; He has blended my light into the Light. ||1||​


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



AmbarDhara said:


> For me Nirankaar is thinking, have thought and has given me the truth. I dont need to think Sikh80. Who is me in front of Nirankaar?
> 
> Nirankaar rocks:
> 
> jot roop har aap guroo naanak kahaa-ya-o.
> The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.
> 
> 
> 
> gurunwnku nwnku hir soie.
> 
> gurunwnku nwnku hir soie
> 
> so it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> har har naam mayrai paraan vasaa-ay sabh sansaa dookh gavaa-i-aa.
> He has enshrined the Name of the Lord, Har, Har within my breath of lfe, and all my doubts and sorrows have departed.​
> adisat agochar gur bachan Dhi-aa-i-aa pavitar param pad paa-i-aa.
> I have meditated on the invisible and unapproachable Lord, through the Guru's Word, and I have obtained the pure, supreme status.​
> anhad Dhun vaajeh nit vaajay gaa-ee satgur banee.
> The unstruck melody resounds, and the instruments ever vibrate, singing the Bani of the True Guru.​
> naanak daat karee parabh daatai jotee jot samaanee. ||1||
> 
> O Nanak, God the Great Giver has given me a gift; He has blended my light into the Light. ||1||​


 
O Nanak! God the Great Giver has given me a gift;HE has blended my light into the light.II1II

Yes it is true. God has given the Nanak......


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Nanak Nirankaar says:

jot roop har aap guroo naanak kahaa-ya-o.
The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Nanak dev ji in Mool Mantra has given all possible attributes Of the creator:

Ik Ongkar Satnam Kartapurukh..............saibhang..gurprasad/
HE IS ONe...........self existent.He creates HIMSELF....


If Guru Nanak dev ji is saying this that Creator is someone else ,it is pointless to say that Nanak ji was Creator.......


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

'Nanak Bani Nirankaar' says:



ab tab jab kab tuhee tuhee.
Now and then, here and there, You, only You.
ham tu-a parsaad sukhee sad hee. ||1|| rahaa-o.
By Your Grace, I am forever in peace. ||1||Pause||
toray bharosay maghar basi-o mayray tan kee tapat bujhaa-ee.
Relying upon You, I can live even in the cursed place of Magahar; You have put out the fire of my body.
pahilay darsan maghar paa-i-o fun kaasee basay aa-ee. ||2||
First, I obtained the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan in Magahar; then, I came to dwell at Benares. ||2||
jaisaa maghar taisee kaasee ham aykai kar jaanee.
As is Magahar, so is Benares; I see them as one and the same.
ham nirDhan ji-o ih Dhan paa-i-aa martay foot gumaanee. ||3||
I am poor, but I have obtained this wealth of the Lord; the proud are bursting with pride, and die. ||3||
karai gumaan chubheh tis soolaa ko kaadhan ka-o naahee.
One who takes pride in himself is stuck with thorns; no one can pull them out.
ajai so chobh ka-o bilal bilaatay narkay ghor pachaahee. ||4||
Here, he cries bitterly, and hereafter, he burns in the most hideous hell. ||4||
kavan narak ki-aa surag bichaaraa santan do-oo raaday.
What is hell, and what is heaven? The Saints reject them both.
ham kaahoo kee kaan na kadh-tay apnay gur parsaaday. ||5||
I have no obligation to either of them, by the Grace of my Guru. ||5||
ab ta-o jaa-ay chadhay singhaasan milay hai saringpaanee.
Now, I have mounted to the throne of the Lord; I have met the Lord, the Sustainer of the World.
raam kabeeraa ayk bha-ay hai ko-ay na sakai pachhaanee. ||6||3||
The Lord and Kabeer have become one. No one can tell them apart. ||6||3||​


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

very good, keep it up..BUt Nanak Dev ji Was the First Guru Of sikhs and was born in 1469 and Creator is AKal Murat  ......


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Guru Nanak Nirankaar lives in every heart.
Guru Nanak Nirankaar lives in infinite number of hearts through Gurbani.
Guru Nanak Nirankaar lives in the infinte universe from the primal begining.​


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

I stop this discussion for today.It is useless. One can tell those who are amenable to correction.
May HE help thee!


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## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

joiq rUip hir Awip gurU nwnku khwXau ]
qw qy AMgdu BXau qq isau qqu imlwXau ]
AMgid ikrpw Dwir Amru siqguru iQru kIAau ]
Amrdwis Amrqu CqRü gur rwmih dIAau ]
gur rwmdws drsnu pris kih mQurw AMimRq bXx ]
mUriq pMc pRmwx purKu guru Arjunu ipKhu nXx ]1]


The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.
From Him, came Guru Angad; His essence was absorbed into the essence.
Guru Angad showed His Mercy, and established Amar Daas as the True Guru.
Guru Amar Daas blessed Guru Raam Daas with the umbrella of immortality.
So speaks Mat'huraa: gazing upon the Blessed Vision, the Darshan of Guru Raam Daas, His speech became as sweet as nectar.
With your eyes, see the certified Primal Person, Guru Arjun, the Fifth Manifestation of the Guru. ||1||


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

'Nanak Bani Nirankaar' says:


gond mehlaa 5.
Gond, Fifth Mehl:​gur mayree poojaa gur gobind.
I worship and adore my Guru; the Guru is the Lord of the Universe.​gur mayraa paarbarahm gur bhagvant.
My Guru is the Supreme Lord God; the Guru is the Lord God.​gur mayraa day-o alakh abhay-o.
My Guru is divine, invisible and mysterious.​sarab pooj charan gur say-o. ||1||
I serve at the Guru's feet, which are worshipped by all. ||1||​gur bin avar naahee mai thaa-o.
Without the Guru, I have no other place at all.​an-din japa-o guroo gur naa-o. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Night and day, I chant the Name of Guru, Guru. ||1||Pause||​gur mayraa gi-aan gur ridai Dhi-aan.
The Guru is my spiritual wisdom, the Guru is the meditation within my heart.​gur gopaal purakh bhagvaan.
The Guru is the Lord of the World, the Primal Being, the Lord God.​gur kee saran raha-o kar jor.
With my palms pressed together, I remain in the Guru's Sanctuary.​guroo binaa mai naahee hor. ||2||
Without the Guru, I have no other at all. ||2||​gur bohith taaray bhav paar.
The Guru is the boat to cross over the terrifying world-ocean.​gur sayvaa jam tay chhutkaar.
Serving the Guru, one is released from the Messenger of Death.​anDhkaar meh gur mantar ujaaraa.
In the darkness, the Guru's Mantra shines forth.​gur kai sang sagal nistaaraa. ||3||
With the Guru, all are saved. ||3||​gur pooraa paa-ee-ai vadbhaagee.
The Perfect Guru is found, by great good fortune.​gur kee sayvaa dookh na laagee.
Serving the Guru, pain does not afflict anyone.​gur kaa sabad na maytai ko-ay.
No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.​gur naanak naanak har so-ay. ||4||7||9||
Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||​


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Guru Nanak Dev Ji* 



*Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born in 1469. 

kindly follow the link for further .....
*


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## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



AmbarDhara said:


> Guru Nanak Nirankaar lives in every heart.
> 
> Guru Nanak Nirankaar lives in infinite number of hearts through Gurbani.
> 
> Guru Nanak Nirankaar lives in the infinte universe from the primal begining.​


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Before the birth of Guru Nanak, there were no Sikhs in this world. 


kindly follow the link.....


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## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



> je Rab milda, bahar labheyaan
> 
> taan raab milda gaiyaan majhaan nu,
> 
> 
> je rab milda naatheyaa dhotteya...
> 
> taan rab milda macchiyaan nu...
> 
> je rab milda, hookaan maareyaa,
> 
> taan rab milda kaavaan nu...
> 
> rab nu ki labhda ein
> 
> kade "aiina" jake wekheyaa kar...


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Guru nanak ji who authored Mool Mantra stated......

Ik Ongkaar..Satnaam..

He is one...He is The truth....


Guru ji is telling us about One creator...How can Nanak dev ji who praised the creator become a creator.?What ever you are saying is recorded as a praise fo the Guru.


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sikh80 have you read all of SGGS Ji?


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*God in Sikhism*

*
*


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

This is not the answer to my question Sikh80.

I asked: have you read all of SGGS JI?



As you are getting your answers from here and there, it seems you have not.

If you want to disscuss this further - go and read all of SGGS Ji and find out how many times 

SGGS JI ( with your assistance I perceived it to be 'Nanak Bani Nirankaar', thanks for this parupkaar) talks about

GOD CREATED HIMSELF. 
GOD PERVADES AND PERMEATS EVERYTHING.
GOD IS EVERYTHING. 
GURU IS GOD.
GOD IS GURU.
His creation and He Himself all the same.

The same 'Nanak Bani Nirankaar' says:

Guru Nanak Dev is God.


You are giving the argument :we dont know Him existance, we cannot describe God ., Nanak cannot be God. Translation of Gurbani is wrong, it cannot be so. 

At many many places it is said: There is no distinction between Guru and God.





Three simple questions I ask you Sikh80:

1. Are you considering yourself better and bigger than Gurbani, as you argue that it is wrong. as Bani says 'Guru Nanak is God'. And it says itself: 'vaho vaho bani nirankaar hai.' Look it is telling us that it is great and nobody is equal to it. Do you still consider yourself bigger and better than Gurbani: which says- There is no distinction between God and Guru.


2.Is Guru Nanak not Brahmgyani?

as Bani says: brahmgyani aap parmesar. 


3. Is Guru Nanak not included in everything?

as Bani says: All is God Himself.


another note:

'Nanak Bani Nirankaar' does say:

As I have seen Him, so have I described Him.


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## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

YouTube - Bhai Sarabjeet Singh - Vahu Vahu Bani Nirankaar Hai


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Ek Ongkar satnaam 
He Is One ;The Truth....


Nanak dev ji..telling attributes Of God/Creator...Nanak ji cannot be the one who Created HIM...

Nanak dev ji authored Mool Mantra......

waho waho Bani nirankaar hi......
[ if you follow Bani you may meet HIM]
Bani in itself is just few words.

Brahmgyani aap parmeshwar...
Brahmgyani becomes equal to the parmeshwar ;But ; But; Brahmgyani is not himself the parmeshwar........

Parmeshwar is ONE ..ONLY one...and that is sikhi......

waho waho bani Nirankaar hi............


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

So you saying 'Brahmgyani is not aap parmesar' 

What is the difference of being equal and not being? And Why Gurbani says again and again that there is no distinction between God and Guru?

also tell me what does it mean by:

Brahmgyani ka nahi binaas?

Why did you leave the question 1 and 3?


ONE CREATOR , KARTA AS WELL AS SAT. 
PURKH AS WELL. Naam as well.

'Jeta Keeta Teta Nao.'


God created Himself- is being said in Gurbani so many times. So how can one even question the same Gurbani that tells Guru Nanak is God, Creator created Himself, exactly Gurbani says.



THERE IS NOTHING BUT GOD.

So it is so simple: Guru Nanak is God.


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## BhagatSingh

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



AmbarDhara said:


> So you saying 'Brahmgyani is not aap parmesar'
> THERE IS NOTHING BUT GOD.
> 
> So it is so simple: Guru Nanak is God.



There you go, you are getting it now! there is nothing but GOD. Therefore, everything is a part of him, it doesn't matter if it is Guru Nanak or me or you or that piece of poop. God is everywhere! :}{}{}:


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



BhagatSingh said:


> There you go, you are getting it now! there is nothing but GOD. Therefore, everything is a part of him, it doesn't matter if it is Guru Nanak or me or you or that piece of poop. God is everywhere!


 
You seem to be right here.


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## BhagatSingh

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



AmbarDhara said:


> So you saying 'Brahmgyani is not aap parmesar'
> 
> What is the difference of being equal and not being? And Why Gurbani says again and again that there is no distinction between God and Guru?
> 
> also tell me what does it mean by:
> 
> Brahmgyani ka nahi binaas?


Its a metaphor for God's sake! Brahmgyani aap parmesar is saying that one who becomes Brahmgyani is like God! (simile) 
Brahmgyani is God = metaphor which means it should not be taken in the literal sense
Brahmgyani is like God would be the simile version of it.


Brahmgyani ka nahi binaas! another metaphhor... :hmm:



AmbarDhara said:


> Sikh80 have you read all of SGGS Ji?


Why do u care if Sikh80 has read all of SGGS? Sikh80 is presenting his aruguments using SGGS and that's all that matters.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

I think it would be advisable if we revise our concepts about God in sikhism.Below is reproduced a standard article from Wikipedia and will be helpful in revising the concepts.We can proceed ahead with the discussion, if required. 

************************

*God in Sikhism*

*From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Guru Piayario Jio,
Gurfateh.

Reminds me of the poem.."The Six blind men of Hindoostan"...i read when i was in Primary school.
It goes like this....Six blind men went to "see" an elephant.... the first one touched its tail..and concluded the "Elephant" is like a rope/snake..
The second one touched its side...and concluded an "Elephant" is like a wall....the third one touched its tusks and concluded an "elephant" is like a sword..the fourth one touched its legs and concluded an elephant is like a tree trunk...the Fifth one touched its ear and concluded the elphant is like a fan..and i forget what the sixth one touched..BUT they were ALL "right" and All were "Wrong" at the Same time.

Here is another version...
Same Conclusion...


There were six men of Hindustan,
to learning much inclined,
Who went to see an elephant,
though all of them were blind,
That each by observation
might satisfy his mind. 
The first approached the elephant,
and happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
at once began to bawl,
"This mystery of an elephant
is very like a wall." 
The second, feeling of the tusk,
cried, "Ho, what have we here,
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear,
This wonder of an elephant
is very like a spear." 
The third approached the elephant,
and happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
thus boldly up and spake,
"I see," quoth he,
"the elephant is very like a snake." 
The fourth reached out an eager hand,
and felt above the knee,
"What this most wondrous beast
is like is very plain" said he,
"'Tis clear enough the elephant
is very like a tree." 
The fifth who chanced to touch the ear
said, "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
deny the fact who can;
This marvel of an elephant
is very like a fan." 
The sixth no sooner had begun
about the beast to grope,
Than seizing on the swinging tail
that fell within his scope;
"I see," said he, "the elephant
is very like a rope." So six blind men of Hindustan
disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
exceeding stiff and strong;
Though each was partly in the right,
they all were in the wrong!

GOD...GURU NANAK ( Guru nanak to Guru Granth )...we are all "free" to touch and see whatever we feel is right !!!

Gyani jarnail Singh



Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all!
> 
> Some plead. Guru Is God.
> Gurdev says Guru is EEsar, Guru is Gorakh Barmaa and Guru is Parbatee Maaee.
> 
> May I ask if Parbatee Maaee is God? Perhaps God Mom (Maaee) on this forum can guide readers?
> 
> 
> Balbir Singh


 
Balbir Ji,
Gurfateh.

Perhaps if we look at the tuks this way....
Before Guru nanak ji came along....people beleived in Esar, brahm and parbatee etc etc etc 33 KROR names to go...

BUT then GURU NANAK JI gives us HIS Take/Conclusion....Jeh HAUN janna akhan nahin kehnna kathan na jaiyee...HE is Way TOO BIG for "me" (Guru nanak) to really say !!

This is one way Guru nanak ji gives us HIS TAKE on many "established beleifs"....
Lets take the SODAR Shabad as an example...

In the First 14 lines.....SODAR TERA KEHA....onwards Guru Ji "asks" 14 QUESTIONS ( in reality these questions tell us what the religious beleifs of the period were....these established beleifs described HOW GOD had a Darbar..how He Sat on His throne..etc etc etc...Such "established" descriptions as Heavens, Swarag, Dharam Raaj's Kacheri, Inder Devtas Darbar, Seventh Heaven, Behshast etc etc were "established" because ordinary MEN had "seen" King's Darbaars and Majestic drbaars of Emperors etc... so it was very easy for them to IMAGINE a SIMILAR set up for GOD..and thats exactly what the "Religious Thekedars" DISHED OUT - You HEAR what you want to HEAR !!! This is also why "martyrs" are PROMISED Hooran and beautiful maidens in Heaven..flowing Rivers of WINE.HONEY..MILK....GOLD..Diamond Studded PALACES !!! Every Mans DREAM !!! What a Fantastic IMAGINARY HEAVEN....who wouldnt want to go there even if means tying a bomb to your body and blowing it up in a crowded Market ??..or donating everything to the Brahman at Karwatt and getting your head cut off !!!

BUT GURU NANAK IS TRUTH PERSONIFIED....TRUTH TRUTH and ONLY TRUTH..no imaginary rivers of honey or milk and no damsels...just the plain TRUTH... so Here is Guru nanaks SODAR !!!

FROM line 15 ONWARDS it is GURU NANAK JI's ANSWER to this Eternal question about God's abode !!!!
Guru nanak Ji declares HIS ABODE is the ENTIRE BRAHMAND !!!! HE is EVERYWHERE..in each ATOM of His CREATION !!!

EXACTLY the SAME TECHNIQUE used in the AARTEE Shabds....
First Guru nanak ji "describes" HOW the Hindu aartee is done...
and THEN..
GURU NANAKS VERSION of HIS AARTEE !!!

Regards..

Gyani jarnail Singh



AmbarDhara said:


> What is the meaning of the Shabad:
> 
> "gurbani gavo bhaee", can somebody translate it for me please


..


Gurfateh Ji.

Gurbani is also to be..LIVED !!! not merely sung/read/vicharred........Gurmatt is not mere repettion..parrotting...repetitions....its got to be Bitten off, CHEWED..tasted and Swallowed  JE ko KHAVEH Je ko BHUNCHEH..Tis ka hoi adharo.....simialr to medicine pills...serve no purpose just beign kept in a bottle and looked at, admired.....you got to eat them to be cured !!

Regards

Gyani jarnail Singh


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

It is very kind of you to be with us. We are previliged to have your views and blessings. Sir, would you kindly help breaking this stalemate though you have answered .I believe Guru Nanak's God is in 'Mool Mantra' as well. 
How will you advise?

I have to leave for my Office, I shall read your reply afterwards.
Regards ,Sir.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

I shall be grateful for the advise of the members of SPN.


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

One's first step in wisdom is to question everything - and one's last is to come to terms with everything.


----------



## Archived_member2

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

guru prmysru eyko jwxu ]
gu{ prmys{ Eko jwxu ]
"guru parmesaru ayko jaan." SGGS Ang 864-9
Guru, Parmesaru are One Experience.

'Jaanu' does not mean collecting information about Guru or Parmesar. 'Jaanu' is experiencing HIM.
Also, Guru does not mean the life of the person, Guru Naanak Dev Jee.


Balbir Singh


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

balbir Ji, gurfateh.
You are right....if one wants to Jannu ( Experience....gunggeh mathiyee khayee..) the Parmesar..that can be achieved through the GURU..in Gurbani, Mool mantar..we are enjoying the "experience" of parmesar through the writings of Guru nanak jyot 1469-1708..

Gyani jarnail Singh


----------



## Archived_member2

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Gyani Jarnail Singh Jee!

Quote "....if one wants to Jannu ( Experience....gunggeh mathiyee khayee..) the Parmesar..that can be achieved through the GURU..in Gurbani, Mool mantar..we are enjoying the "experience" of parmesar through the writings of Guru nanak jyot 1469-1708.."
May I ask if the GURU in Gurbani is Mool Mantar or these are three different things? Please explain.
It is interesting that some are enjoying the 'experience' of Parmesar through the writings of Guru Naanak Jot 1469-1708. Please elaborate further if writings of others in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee also give the enjoyment and 'experience' of Parmesar? Please explain also how people got the enjoyment and 'experience' of it before the true Gurus wrote the Granth. Thanks.

Did the reverend Gurus provide a copy of their writings to one who wanted to learn Simran?


Balbir Singh


----------



## kaur-1

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Balbir Singh said:


> writings of Guru Naanak Jot 1469-1708.
> 
> Balbir Singh



A quick response to one part of your post which is incorrect I think most Sikhs will agree. 

Guru Jyot is eternal ie has always been and will always be. There is no time constraint.


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

The true Guru is one with Akal Purakh and there is no difference between him and Waheguru.Although he may be in physical form but being in union is devoid of ego's separateness. Such a Guru comes very rarely.
There can be persons on the path and are also Guru for their disciples. These guru's can uplift their disciples only up to the level they have reached.
In the case of Sikhs , the Guru Nanak jyote in 10th form placed the jyote in SGGSji. The gurbani as shabad guru is same as Akal purukh. SGGSji gives the gurprasad to its true disciples.The bani in SGGSji has all the capabilities of a true guru.

In all the case of all the disciples when through the True Guru the viels are lifted the disciple hears the Shabad within.
Now shabad is Guru as Guru Nanak Devji says in Sidh Gost.
*( Source: Universal Mind)*


----------



## Archived_member2

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Kaur-1 Jee!

Quote "A quick response to one part of your post which is incorrect I think most Sikhs will agree."
I agree with your observation. I may not be one of the most Sikhs though.

Quote "Guru Jyot is eternal ie has always been and will always be. There is no time constraint."
This may be right when someone recognizes it.

**************

Quote from Namjap Jee "In the case of Sikhs , the Guru Nanak jyote in 10th form placed the jyote in SGGSji."
May I ask when does SGGSji place this jyote in a Sikh?

Quote "SGGSji gives the gurprasad to its true disciples."
Can one count those or it is not possible?

Quote "In all the case of all the disciples when through the True Guru the viels are lifted the disciple hears the Shabad within."
Please provide a reference from Gurdev confirming that first the true Guru lifts the veil then the disciple hears the Sabad within. I will be thankful.

**************

The Gur and Parmesar are One. Can someone please explain what is that Gur, also Parmesar?


Balbir Singh


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Balbir Singh said:


> Quote from Namjap Jee "In the case of Sikhs , the Guru Nanak jyote in 10th form placed the jyote in SGGSji."
> May I ask when does SGGSji place this jyote in a Sikh?
> 
> Quote "SGGSji gives the gurprasad to its true disciples."
> Can one count those or it is not possible?
> 
> Quote "In all the case of all the disciples when through the True Guru the viels are lifted the disciple hears the Shabad within."
> Please provide a reference from Gurdev confirming that first the true Guru lifts the veil then the disciple hears the Sabad within. I will be thankful.
> 
> **************
> 
> The Gur and Parmesar are One. Can someone please explain what is that Gur, also Parmesar?
> 
> 
> Balbir Singh


 

Here's the link : Say Sat Sri Akal - Live with Truth, achieve all Treasures and merge in Eternity


He who shows the Real Home in this body, is the true Guru 
  --the All-Powerful. He makes the Five--Sounded Word 
  reverberate in man and thus sounds forth the clue to the Word. 
 _--Malar War M.1_


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Gyani Jarnail Singh Jee!
> 
> Quote "....if one wants to Jannu ( Experience....gunggeh mathiyee khayee..) the Parmesar..that can be achieved through the GURU..in Gurbani, Mool mantar..we are enjoying the "experience" of parmesar through the writings of Guru nanak jyot 1469-1708.."
> May I ask if the GURU in Gurbani is Mool Mantar or these are three different things? Please explain.
> It is interesting that some are enjoying the 'experience' of Parmesar through the writings of Guru Naanak Jot 1469-1708. Please elaborate further if writings of others in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee also give the enjoyment and 'experience' of Parmesar? Please explain also how people got the enjoyment and 'experience' of it before the true Gurus wrote the Granth. Thanks.
> 
> Did the reverend Gurus provide a copy of their writings to one who wanted to learn Simran?
> 
> 
> Balbir Singh


 

Guur Piayraio Jio,
Balbir Singh ji,
gurfateh.

Yes in my view Guru is Gurbani...Akal Purakh Jyot and this is Eternal. Therefore from time immemorial naam rasiuhs have been experiencing this jyot...example the Bhagats Kabir Ji Ravidass Ji Sheikh farid Ji etc etc.

2. Yes the Gurus wrote down thei Gurbani themsleves - and passed this down to the next Guru at Gurgadhi. Guru Arjun ji recompiled the collection into pothi sahib AAd Granth which was later bestowed Gurgadhi by Guur Gobind Singh Ji in 1708...as Guru Granth sahib Ji.

3. All have the chance to enjoy the experience of parmeshar thru Gurbani in Guru Garnth Sahib Ji. However if soemone else - say christian hindu muslim wanst or enjoys this experience thru a different means..it is not impossible..no one claims that ONLY SGGS is exclusive right to parmeshar..that wasnt before 1469 and it is not after 1708..Akal Purakh is beyond just one road or path..He is For ALL. For me and countless millions of SIKHS..SGGS is the easiest way..the best way to experince Parmeshar...others may wish to enjoy differently..good luck to them..

Gyani jarnail Singh


----------



## Archived_member2

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Namjap Jee!

Thanks for the wonderful reference from Gurdev.
"He who shows the Real Home in this body, is the true Guru 
--the All-Powerful. He makes the Five--Sounded Word 
reverberate in man and thus sounds forth the clue to the Word." 
--Malar War M.1 

What is that Five-Sounded Word? Please explain.
I heard preachers and Baabaas talking about fourteen hundred and thirty pages but never the Five-Sounded Word. Why?

**************

Quote from Gyani Jarnail Singh Jee "Yes in my view Guru is Gurbani...Akal Purakh Jyot and this is Eternal. Therefore from time immemorial naam rasiuhs have been experiencing this jyot...example the Bhagats Kabir Ji Ravidass Ji Sheikh farid Ji etc etc."
Why is your name missing in this list? I hope Naam Rasiuhs are experiencing this jyot today also.

Quote "Guru Arjun ji recompiled the collection into pothi sahib AAd Granth which was later bestowed Gurgadhi by gur Gobind Singh Ji in 1708...as Guru Granth sahib Ji."
Who informed Sikhs about this? Please provide the reference from Gurdev.

Quote "All have the chance to enjoy the experience of parmeshar thru Gurbani in Guru Garnth Sahib Ji."
All the true Gurus sing. One may experience Parmesar through Guru's Baanee. Nowhere Gurdev wrote once or said that it was the written book Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.


Quote "Akal Purakh is beyond just one road or path..He is For ALL. For me and countless millions of SIKHS..SGGS is the easiest way..the best way to experince Parmeshar...others may wish to enjoy differently..good luck to them.."
The book seller has many holy scriptures. Does he own God, His all paths and best luck?



Balbir Singh


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Namjap Jee!
> 
> Thanks for the wonderful reference from Gurdev.
> "He who shows the Real Home in this body, is the true Guru
> --the All-Powerful. He makes the Five--Sounded Word
> reverberate in man and thus sounds forth the clue to the Word."
> --Malar War M.1
> 
> What is that Five-Sounded Word? Please explain.
> I heard preachers and Baabaas talking about fourteen hundred and thirty pages but never the Five-Sounded Word. Why?


 
Malar ki Waar Mehla 1 is from the 1430 pages.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



namjap said:


> Malar ki Waar Mehla 1 is from the 1430 pages.


 
It is very true that there is a mention of five sounded word but there is no clue to the same anywhere.The five sounded word has significance in sufis and some other sects like radhaswamis. Infact the radhaswami cult is surviving on this ignorance of the sikhs. There is also something like five in Anand sahib Paath. [Vaajay panch sabad {censored} ghar sabhagay........................]

We are totally ignorant about this. AS namjap ji has stated that God is the final guru, we shall have to depend upon the realisation if HE please. To say that we shall have the grace of SGGS ji will not imply much as guidance is available upto a limit. All we are to do is naam-simran besides lead a life of a sikh. There is nothing beyond this that we can do. 

:idea:Best of luck to all of us.:idea:


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

When one's mind quietens down away from the hustle bustle of worldly attention, one can train oneself to have rohani satsang within one's self. 

Radha Soami use mainly gurbani from SGGS to propogate their own panth which circles around dehdhari gurus.

Many people have been taken for a ride into believing that dehdhari gurus are true masters. Read "fake babaas" posted by Surinder Kaur Cheema in SPN and you'll find how to sniff them out.

Yogi Bhajan explains what Guru ji (SGGS) says about Panch Shabad:-

Mantras are powerful tools for clearing and restructuring the subconscious mind. SAT NAM and its derivative SA TA NA MA are the two basic mantras taught by Yogi Bhajan to reorient the mind and thus open us up to the possibility of transformational change.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]SAT NAM seeds the truth in our consciousness by waking us up to our divine identity. SAT NAM is the seed or bij mantra.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]SA TA NA MA incorporates the nuclear sounds of SAT NAM. SA TA NA MA uses the primal sounds to connect us to the evolutionary nature of existence itself. It is referred to as *the panch shabd, which means a mantra with five sound currents. The fifth sound is "A."* When we chant SA TA NA MA we imprint the evolutionary code of the universe into our human psyche.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]SA is the beginning, infinity, the totality of everything that ever was, is or will be.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]TA is life, existence and creativity that manifests from infinity.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]NA is death, change and the transformation of consciousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]MA is rebirth, regeneration and resurrection which allows us to consciously experience the joy of the infinite.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]SA TA NA MA is so primal that its impact on our psyche is like splitting an atom. The power of his mantra comes from the fact that it rearranges the subconscious mind at the most elementary level. It has the power to break habits and addictions because it accesses the level of the mind where habits are created.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yogi Bhajan says that "Behavior patterns are the result of the radiance of the psyche and frequency of the magnetic field in relationship to the universal psyche and magnetic force." (*1)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The radiance of the psyche is dependent upon the active functioning of both the pituitary and pineal glands. The pituitary gland regulates the entire glandular system. The secretion of the pineal gland creates a pulsating radiance that activates the pituitary gland. The mind goes out of balance when the pineal gland is dormant. The imbalance makes it seem impossible to break mental and physical addictions. The mantra SA TA NA MA to a powerful tool to recreate balance in the mind.[/FONT] ​ 
(Full article: Kundalini Yoga - Free On-Line Training Lesson 15 - Kirtan Kriya, for Evolutionary Change.)


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Respected naamjap ji,
Very many thanks for the information.The views are Of an idividual and the authencity of the source is put to question.Sikhs generally believe in sggs ji or bani or some direct or indirect reference to the Panch Shabad.
Could you kindly let us know as to what yogi ji claim would be Panch sabad.?


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

There are lectures of Yogi Bhajan on sikhnet where one can delve into. 

*A glimpse of SGGS bani on panch shabad (Five Melodies) :-*

The five-sounded Melody keeps reverberating and my soul 
is ever attracted by It as a Sarang is ever after water. 
O the Formless One beyond all knowledge! 
I worship thee with all my heart. 
*Parbati KABIR* 

The five sublime strains become distinguishable, 
The drum, the conch, and the thunder.
*Ramkali Beni Ji*



*Bhai Gurdas Ji* tells us that it is only after one transcends body-consciousness that one gets contact with the five-sounded Song.When the spirit crosses over the world of matter, The five-sounded Melody comes to greet her. *Varaan Bhai Gurdas Vaar 29*​
The soul of a true devotee can listen to the five- sounded Music, The Song of the Master is characterized by five distinct strains.                                                        *Varaan Bhai Gurdas Vaar 6*​
The five Melodies constituting the Word come from Him and become the means of reuniting us with Him. The saints also adore the Word; in the Jap Ji we have:The saint lives by and meditates on the One Word.              
*Japji Sahib Stanza 16*

In the temple of the body whoever sings, and sings of the Lord, He, while singing, hears the five Melodies in the body and gets the highest glory. 
*GURU RAM DAS Sarang Mehla 4*​​


----------



## kaur-1

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

The question is if "panch" in panch Shabad actually means five.

To me panch shabad means anhad/anhat shabad.


----------



## Sherab

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

the 5 sounded word is waheguruji.... broken down into syllables, it is 5.

bhul chak maf karni


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Hi sherab ji,
I was just wondering if you could give the source of above info. Normally the word should not have 'ji'.

The discussion has shifted from the main topic to panch shabad. Any comment on Guru nanak dev ji that He was a creator or the Panch Shabad would be welcome.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Guru nanak ji was the first guru of sikhs and is respected by all sikhs allover the globe. Some people state that HE was The creator.


----------



## Sherab

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sikh80 said:


> Hi sherab ji,
> I was just wondering if you could give the source of above info. Normally the word should not have 'ji'.
> 
> The discussion has shifted from the main topic to panch shabad. Any comment on Guru nanak dev ji that He was a creator or the Panch Shabad would be welcome.


I cannot answer, and my response was just somply a guess.

good point. 

gurfateh


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Guru Nanak Dev Ji* 




http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/19100-nanak-is-guru-nanak-lord-himself-19.html


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sikh80 said:


> Guru nanak ji was the first guru of sikhs and is respected by all sikhs allover the globe. Some people state that HE was The creator.


 

Sikh80 Ji,


According to Sikh GURU- GURU GRANTH SAHIB:

In Sukhmani it states: Brahmgyani srisht ka karta.  
This tells us that a God Realized person is the creator of the whole universe.
The same truth is said about Saint, Guru, Satguru, Bhagwant and the other God realized ones.


If YOU YOURSELF consider Guru Nanak Dev Ji a BRAHMGYANI(God Realized)-  then HE IS THE CREATOR.

BUT IF YOU DONT CONSIDER GURU NANAK DEV JI A BRAHMGYANI- then it is solely your PROBLEM, nobody else can answer it for you unless you change your understanding about Guru Nanak Dev Ji. 


Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

If you follow the thread it has been stated clearly that Nanak dev ji authored Mool Mantra in eulogisation Of the Almighty.A person cannot eulogise himself.
Further in Japu ji sahib,

Ehu vyKY Enw ndir n AwvY bhuqw eyhu ivfwxu ] (7-3, jpu, mÚ 1)
He watches over all, but none see Him. How wonderful this is!
 Awdysu iqsY Awdysu ] (7-3, jpu, mÚ 1)
I bow to Him, I humbly bow.
 Awid AnIlu Anwid Anwhiq jugu jugu eyko vysu ]30] (7-4, jpu, mÚ 1)
The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same. ||30||
 Awsxu loie loie BMfwr ] (7-4, jpu, mÚ 1)
On world after world are His Seats of Authority and His Storehouses.
 jo ikCu pwieAw su eykw vwr ] (7-5, jpu, mÚ 1)
Whatever was put into them, was put there once and for all.
 kir kir vyKY isrjxhwru ] (7-5, jpu, mÚ 1)
Having created the creation, the Creator Lord watches over it.
 nwnk scy kI swcI kwr ] (7-5, jpu, mÚ 1)
O Nanak, True is the Creation of the True Lord.


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sikh80 Ji,

It is clear that you can't or you dont want to understand. Gurbani that you are quoting read it again yourself. 

"The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same."

You dont need to reply this, as it is very obvious that it is useless talking to you.


Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Guru's mother was Mata Tripta and he had one older sister, Bibi Nanki. From the very childhood, Bibi Nanki saw the Light of God in Guru Nanak but did not reveal this secret to anyone. She is known as the first disciple of Guru Nanak. 

How does one see the Light of God ?


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

I do not know as to how to see the light Of god. Only the one who has experienced it can tell and /or these kinds of write ups.
I do not think light of God would mean in literal sense.It may be saintly qualities as well that nanak ji had. 

Nanak sahib was very kind person and there are many saakhi's about him and his kidhood.


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## Archived_Member_19

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

there are many sakhis/fables about God too


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

You are right and tomorrow there would be many for all of us as well.:u):
Will that mean that we all are...???:u):


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## Archived_Member_19

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

and does it deny that we are not....? :u):


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

So let it be that it has to be; as may be, we all are that you said that v can be; so let it be ;who am I if all are that you said to be...and that  what has to be will be and that will never be that has not to be..so let it be that it has to be...


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## Archived_Member_19

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

nice rhymes


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Waheguru di mehr hey ji

Sakhi Contd......It may get automerged hence  ****stars are put in a line ...
************************************
To this Guru Nanak Dev ji stated,


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## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sikh80 said:


> So let it be that it has to be; as may be, we all are that you said that v can be; so let it be ;who am I if all are that you said to be...and that  what has to be will be and that will never be that has not to be..so let it be that it has to be...



Sikh80 ji

With all respect, you are posting in the Gurmat Vichaar section of the forum  -- which presumes that we are working to further Vichaar -- Understanding. It would be a kindness to speak to the issues raised by the Bani and articles comprising this thread. 

May we also have the source for comments below in #197?


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



aad0002 said:


> Sikh80 ji
> 
> With all respect, you are posting in the Gurmat Vichaar section of the forum -- which presumes that we are working to further Vichaar -- Understanding. It would be a kindness to speak to the issues raised by the Bani and articles comprising this thread.
> 
> May we also have the source for comments below in #197?


 
With all respect It is to state that this was the only method left with me to break the 'jam' created by the posts by amarsanghera ji.Kindly go through the posts prior to the post that has been quoted.I think it was a thread being throttled or the channel being blocked. It would be in all fairness if the objection would have been raised at the time the comments of the other members were posted.
However, having said all that is to be stated ,it is still to state that there is no 'Vichaar' going on here  ;only the facts about Nanak dev ji are being recorded in the thread.However, the choice about the selection of words is the prerogative of the moderators only. I am again grateful for the unnecessary interruptions. 
You may kindly carry on with your Vichaars that you are carrying on. Kindly clarify as to which source of comment is being sought for by yourself.I see a part of an article. If there is some comment it is on account of aoutogenerated double post.[long word indeed but meaningless , no,OMG what do you say] 
I should .,ofcourse, be more careful in posting that I have to post.
Thanks for reminding me. Kindly do not forget to do the same if you find something like this again.I shall be grateful. With all respect I shall close now.


----------



## Archived_Member_19

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sikh80 ji

can you explain how my statement " there are a lot of sakhis/fables related to God too" was a log jam to illicit a tongue jabbing responses 

 my intent was to remind you that so manytimes we focus on literal and persona aspects in our analysis that it twists the whole context and blurs the mssage.

SGGS was compiled due to a reason


- go guess !!


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*********************************************


*What and of what kind is Guru Nanak’s God?* The answer lies in the Mool Mantra or Mangalacharan written in the beginning of Jap ji –

:idea:I think the above clarifies the position that Guru Nanak dev ji was a Guru and not GOD.:idea:
_One may find the full article by feeding Bani and Simran in the search Box_


----------



## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*However, having said all that is to be stated ,it is still to state that there is no 'Vichaar' going on here ;only the facts about Nanak dev ji are being recorded in the thread.However, the choice about the selection of words is the prerogative of the moderators only. I am again grateful for the unnecessary interruptions. 






I dont' know what this means either. *


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## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



aad0002 said:


> *However, having said all that is to be stated ,it is still to state that there is no 'Vichaar' going on here ;only the facts about Nanak dev ji are being recorded in the thread.However, the choice about the selection of words is the prerogative of the moderators only. I am again grateful for the unnecessary interruptions.
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *I dont' know what this means either. *


 

aadooo2 Ji,


One thing is worth noticing though, Sikh80 contradicts himself in everypost he makes.

Just one example: Post #201:

he quotes:

“The entire creation is nothing but Naam. No place is devoid of Naam.”

"The more we progress in understanding hukam, the more our illusion will go away."


“Get rid of all doubts and meditate on God"

"Let us take our own example. If we like and sincerely love a person, he/she begins to occupy our memory at all times. We always try to stay close to that person. Whatever he/she does or has, is cherished by us. A time comes when our love dissolves all barriers between us and we become one with the object of our love."




In the end he says:

:idea:I think the above clarifies the position that Guru Nanak dev ji was a Guru and not GOD.:idea:





So all in all he is actually portraying his own innocence or unwillingness to believe in Guru Ji. . 


Tuhada Das
Yograj



ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ । 
paarabrahamu pooran brahamu guru govindu siaanai soee|
The fact that the transcendental Brahm is the prefect Brahm and the Guru is God, is only identified by a gurmukh, the Guru-orientated one.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Pyramid said:


> aadooo2 Ji,
> 
> 
> One thing is worth noticing though, Sikh80 contradicts himself in everypost he makes.
> 
> Just one example: Post #201:
> 
> he quotes:
> 
> “The entire creation is nothing but Naam. No place is devoid of Naam.”
> 
> “Get rid of all doubts and meditate on God"
> 
> 
> In the end he says:
> 
> :idea:I think the above clarifies the position that Guru Nanak dev ji was a Guru and not GOD.:idea:
> 
> So all in all he is actually portraying his own innocence or unwillingness to believe in Guru Ji. .
> Tuhada Das
> Yograj


 
It is surprising that my dear friend could find something in the article that I have posted. If you would kindly observe the complete line , lest you have missed, is as follows:


Again, here is the way to lead a life of dharma –
“Get rid of all doubts and meditate on God
Says Nanak, this is the everlasting dharma.”


I hope the matter stands sorted out.  It is Nanak ji who is saying to Meditate on God as the rest is an everlasting .....

Kindly forgive for my bluntness. I had posted the article for the benefit of the members so that some continuity is maintained. But I was wrong.I should not have posted the entire article. If you have something to substantiate or prove otherwise please post.We can always discuss that and sort out.


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Gurubani is to believe not to sort out, my dear friend. Guru Ji passed on Gurgaddi to Guru Granth Sahib. Everlasting Truth- Gurbani- Guru Granth sahib- tells us time and again- "GOD IS GURU AND GURU IS GOD", "THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN GOD AND GURU", "BRAHMGYANI, SANT, AND ALL GOD REALIZED SOULS ARE GOD." 

Thanks for your self-contradicting posts once again my friend, keep on teaching us the truth. Your posts are making all the doubts cleared for many- Vah Teri Kudrat.


Tuhada Das
Yograj



"ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ।" 
paarabrahamu pooran brahamu guru govindu siaanai soee|
The fact that the transcendental Brahm is the prefect Brahm and the Guru is God, is only identified by a gurmukh, the Guru-orientated one.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Pyramid said:


> Gurubani is to believe not to sort out, my dear friend. Guru Ji passed on Gurgaddi to Guru Granth Sahib. Everlasting Truth- Gurbani- Guru Granth sahib- tells us time and again- "GOD IS GURU AND GURU IS GOD", "THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN GOD AND GURU", "BRAHMGYANI, SANT, AND ALL THE GOD REALIZED SOULS- ALL ARE GOD, THE CREATOR".
> Thanks for your self-contradicting posts.
> Guru Ji says:
> "ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ।"
> paarabrahamu pooran brahamu guru govindu siaanai soee|
> The fact that the transcendental Brahm is the prefect Brahm and the Guru is God, is only identified by a gurmukh, the Guru-orientated one.
> Thanks for your self-contradicting posts once again.
> Tuhada Das
> Yograj


 

Further :As per Mool Mantra Of nanak dev ji:

<> siq nwmu krqw purKu inrBau inrvYru Akwl mUriq AjUnI sYBM gur pRswid ] (1-1, mÚ 1)
One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~ 
Further:

 hukmI hovin Awkwr hukmu n kihAw jweI ] (1-7, jpu, mÚ 1)
By His Command, bodies are created; His Command cannot be described.
 hukmI hovin jIA hukim imlY vifAweI ] (1-8, jpu, mÚ 1)
By His Command, souls come into being; by His Command, glory and greatness are obtained.
 hukmI auqmu nIcu hukim iliK duK suK pweIAih ] (1-8, jpu, mÚ 1)
By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained.
 ieknw hukmI bKsIs ieik hukmI sdw BvweIAih ] (1-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
Some, by His Command, are blessed and forgiven; others, by His Command, wander aimlessly forever.
 hukmY AMdir sBu ko bwhir hukm n koie ] (1-9, jpu, mÚ 1)
Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.
In Jap Ji sahib  GUru sahib has clarly stated HIS command.




Submitted For kind perusal.


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



			
				amarsanghera said:
			
		

> my intent was to remind you that so manytimes we focus on literal and persona aspects in our analysis that it twists the whole context and blurs the mssage.
> 
> SGGS was compiled due to a reason


 
Amarsanghera Ji,

When vision gets blurred, what happens to a person, I GUESS GOD IS SHOWING US THAT VIDEO HERE.

Tuhada Das
Yograj

"ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ।" 
paarabrahamu pooran brahamu guru govindu siaanai soee|
The fact that the transcendental Brahm is the prefect Brahm and the Guru is God, is only identified by a gurmukh, the Guru-orientated one.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

 nwnk eyvY jwxIAY sBu Awpy sicAwru ]4] (2-6, jpu, mÚ 1)
O Nanak, know this well: the True One Himself is All. ||4||
 QwipAw n jwie kIqw n hoie ] (2-6, jpu, mÚ 1)
He cannot be established, He cannot be created.
 Awpy Awip inrMjnu soie ] (2-7, jpu, mÚ 1)
He Himself is Immaculate and Pure.

God.


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## Pyramid

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Dear Sikh80 Ji,*
> 
> 
> *Bani Sach Hai............ doesn't matter in which year the lines are composed.*
> 
> 
> 
> *A TRUE SAINT: WHOSE SOUL IS MERGED WITH THE ALMIGHTY(GOD). SO IS THERE A DIFFERENCE??? NO. BUT A SAINT NEVER NEVER SING HIS/HER OWN PRAISES..................... *
> 
> 
> *NO TRUE SAINT calls himself/herself GOD. *
> 
> 
> *BUT A TRUE SAINT KNOWS ABOUT THE OTHER TRUE SAINT, SO ACKNOWLEDGING HIM .................*
> 
> 
> *Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaaj is telling about Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.*
> 
> 
> *OUR GURUS ARE SO HUMBLE Sikh80 Ji, THEY HAVE EVEN SUGGESTED THAT NO BODY SHOULD CALL THEM GOD. BUT ONCE ONE KNOWS THE TRUTH, ONCE HEAD BOWS WITH UTMOST RESPECT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.............. AND HEART AND MIND ABSORBS THE TRUTH- TU HI TU.............................*
> 
> *Untill one has doubts about his/her Guru's ability, duality stays lingering in one form or the other..........*
> 
> 
> *SEVAK SIKH POOJAN SABH AAYE............................. read this shabad, in this Shabad Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Sahib is telling that one has to believe the word(order) of his/her Guru as TRUE. *
> 
> *and treatment of doubt is also prescribed by Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib- naam simran/rab nu chete karo/remember Him and only Him.................................................................*
> 
> *Waheguru Rakha*


 

Surinder Ji,

Where are you? Please post.

Tuhada Das
Yograj


"ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ।" 
paarabrahamu pooran brahamu guru govindu siaanai soee|
The fact that the transcendental Brahm is the prefect Brahm and the Guru is God, is only identified by a gurmukh, the Guru-orientated one.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Dear Pyramid .,
It is very nice to see the way you are exploring the various threads. You would get enough material that Guru is God.Yes, agreed. But does it resolve our basic issue i.e if the Nanak dev ji was the Creator HIM self.

I do not think so. Creator's first qualification is that HE would never come through the route of womb.That route is meant for the human beings/beings undergoing incarnations. That is why we the mortals are given the route of womb. 

Creator never will come to the world through the route of womb. I think Gurbani has made many references. REgarding Post Of Surinder ,it has already been debated a lot without conclusion.

You remarks are fairly vitreous. But it happens.It is ok.Thanks for being patient.
Again submitted for kind perusal. If you permit we can keep on this for  discussion tomorrow as per your convenience.


You are From India, Sir.
Good Night.


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## paapi_banda

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

WJKK
WJKF

*"Jot Roop HAR Aap Guru Nanak Kahayio"* 
SGGS, *Ang (1408)*

*"The Lord Almighty caused Himself to be called as Guru Nanak"*

Veer, I hope this will clear ur doubt.

Gurfatehh



Sikh80 said:


> gur kw sbdu n mytY koie ] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
> No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.
> gurunwnku nwnku hir soie ]4]7]9] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
> *Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.* ||4||7||9||
> 
> These are the Vaaks from Guru Arjan dev ji maharaj. I am not able to proceed further as the meaning assigned to the 'tuk' does not fit in well with the conceptual framework Of sikhi that I had the chance to build on this forum. Frankly speaking., I have not yet had one full reading of the Granth sahib ji whom I hold in high esteem.
> 
> It was in a post of SPN that I was reading that unlike other religions sikhism does not preach that their Gurus are God. But here the things do not appear to me in sync. with the above.
> 
> 
> Is Guru Nanak dev ji stated to be Creator?
> or
> The translation is not correct
> or
> My appreciation Of the translation is faulty.
> 
> I would also be grateful if someone can tell as to in which year the line was authored or it was during the compilation of the Granth sahib. Did the earlier 3 gurus not observe this.?
> 
> kindly correct me.


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sikh80 said:


> Dear Pyramid .,
> It is very nice to see the way you are exploring the various threads. You would get enough material that Guru is God.Yes, agreed. But does it resolve our basic issue i.e if the Nanak dev ji was the Creator HIM self.
> 
> I do not think so. Creator's first qualification is that HE would never come through the route of womb.That route is meant for the human beings/beings undergoing incarnations. That is why we the mortals are given the route of womb.
> 
> Creator never will come to the world through the route of womb. I think Gurbani has made many references. REgarding Post Of Surinder ,it has already been debated a lot without conclusion.
> 
> You remarks are fairly vitreous. But it happens.It is ok.Thanks for being patient.
> Again submitted for kind perusal. If you permit we can keep on this discussion tomorrow as per your convenience.


 

Sikh80 Ji,

I dont need to discuss anything with you, you contradict yourself, and you dont believe in Guru's words and consistently arguing to prove them wrong. What makes you believe that I want to disscuss it with you? YOUR EGO, INNOCENCE OR WHAT?

I was replying specifically to- AAD0002, AMARSANGHERA and SURINDER. I already told you not to reply me in my post:189- go read it, if you didn't read it before. You made yourself a halla bol guy. I have no interest in talking to you dear friend. 

I believe in every word in aad0002, amarsanghera and Surinder Ji's posts, AND I WOULD LIKE THEM TO ENLIGHTEN US MORE, DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM? 

Tuhada Das
Yograj

"ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ।" 
paarabrahamu pooran brahamu guru govindu siaanai soee|
The fact that the transcendental Brahm is the prefect Brahm and the Guru is God, is only identified by a gurmukh, the Guru-orientated one.


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## BhagatSingh

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



paapi_banda said:


> WJKK
> WJKF
> 
> *"Jot Roop HAR Aap Guru Nanak Kahayio"*
> SGGS, *Ang (1408)*
> 
> *"The Lord Almighty caused Himself to be called as Guru Nanak"*
> 
> Veer, I hope this will clear ur doubt.
> 
> Gurfatehh


I think your translation is a bit off. Sounds to me like Guru Nanak is saying something and not being called anything. Something to do with God being everything, the Jot and Roop. Try posting the whole shabad, it will clear things up a bit.

 Assuming,you are right. Does that mean Guru Gobind Singh as well?


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## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Pyramid ji

Many forum members most likely appreciate the time you take always to read, focus, analyze, compare and contrast some very difficult commentary in this thread and others. This is a hard thread to follow. It is hard to stay focused. Part of the problem is that the topic is subtle and complicated. People come to grips with the subject of Nanaak, Guru and God in different ways. Some prefer a philosophical approach, with the speakers taking positions, and debating different points of view. Some find an answer in the Shabad to such an extent that a debate is difficult, even painful. That is my take on the discussion. So thank you for keeping us focused because that is hard to do.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

The Bani Of Guru Nanak Dev ji clearly points out that The Creator is a different entity. It is true that we all like Nanak dev ji so much that we all treat him like a God. But Baba Nanak ji has himself stated the following in eulogisation/praise of the Almighty.
jyvfu BwvY qyvfu hoie ] (6-3, jpu, mÚ 1)
He is as Great as He wishes to be.
nwnk jwxY swcw soie ] (6-3, jpu, mÚ 1)
*O Nanak, the True Lord knows.*

In addition to this we have reference at many places where in GOD is treated as a separate being.

ਤੂ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਤੁਮ ਪਹਿ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਰਾਸਿ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਹਮ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਤੇਰੇ ॥ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਮਹਿ ਸੂਖ ਘਨੇਰੇ ॥ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ॥ ਊਚੇ ਤੇ ਊਚਾ ਭਗਵੰਤ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਸਮਗ੍ਰੀ ਤੁਮਰੈ ਸੂਤ੍ਰਿ ਧਾਰੀ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਆਗਿਆਕਾਰੀ ॥ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਗਤਿ ਮਿਤਿ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਜਾਨੀ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਸਦਾ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ॥੮॥੪॥


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## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਤਾ ਕੇਵਡੁ ਚੀਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
                                   koe n jaanai thaeraa kaethaa kaevadd cheeraa ||1|| 
                                                  No one knows the extent or the vastness of Your Expanse.


How wide, how near, how large, how deep, how immediate, how transcendent, how immanent, how young, how powerful, how compassionate, how everywhere, how persistent, how dependable, how awesome, how generous, etc. No one knows.
​


----------



## Archived_Member_19

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

exactly

how we can give an image to something we donot know?

How can we define the limits?

how can we deny its being part of us?

how can you be sure that you are not "that"

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
सिरीरागु महला ३ ॥
Sirīrāg mehlā 3.
Siree Raag, Third Mehl:
ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਫੇਰੁ ਨ ਪਵੈ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
सतिगुरि मिलिऐ फेरु न पवै जनम मरण दुखु जाइ ॥
Saṯgur mili&shy;ai fėr na pavai janam maraṇ ḏukẖ jā&shy;ė.
Meeting with the True Guru, you shall not have to go through the cycle of reincarnation again; the pains of birth and death will be taken away.
ਪੂਰੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਭ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੈ ਰਹੈ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧॥
पूरै सबदि सभ सोझी होई हरि नामै रहै समाइ ॥१॥
Pūrai sabaḏ sabẖ sojẖī ho&shy;ī har nāmai rahai samā&shy;ė. ||1||
Through the Perfect Word of the Shabad, all understanding is obtained; remain absorbed in the Name of the Lord. ||1||
ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਿਉ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥
मन मेरे सतिगुर सिउ चितु लाइ ॥
Man mėrė saṯgur si&shy;o cẖiṯ lā&shy;ė.
O my mind, focus your consciousness on the True Guru.
ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਦ ਨਵਤਨੋ ਆਪਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
निरमलु नामु सद नवतनो आपि वसै मनि आइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Nirmal nām saḏ navṯano āp vasai man ā&shy;ė. ||1|| rahā&shy;o.
The Immaculate Naam itself, ever-fresh, comes to abide within the mind. ||1||Pause||
ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਜਿਉ ਰਾਖਹਿ ਤਿਉ ਰਹਣਾ ॥
हरि जीउ राखहु अपुनी सरणाई जिउ राखहि तिउ रहणा ॥
Har jī&shy;o rākẖo apunī sarṇā&shy;ī ji&shy;o rākẖahi ṯi&shy;o rahṇā.
O Dear Lord, please protect and preserve me in Your Sanctuary. As You keep me, so do I remain.
ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਜੀਵਤੁ ਮਰੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਤਰਣਾ ॥੨॥
गुर कै सबदि जीवतु मरै गुरमुखि भवजलु तरणा ॥२॥
Gur kai sabaḏ jīvaṯ marai gurmukẖ bẖavjal ṯarṇā. ||2||
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Gurmukh remains dead while yet alive, and swims across the terrifying world-ocean. ||2||
ਵਡੈ ਭਾਗਿ ਨਾਉ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁਹਾਈ ॥
वडै भागि नाउ पाईऐ गुरमति सबदि सुहाई ॥
vadai bẖāg nā&shy;o pā&shy;ī&shy;ai gurmaṯ sabaḏ suhā&shy;ī.
By great good fortune, the Name is obtained. Following the Guru's Teachings, through the Shabad, you shall be exalted.
ਆਪੇ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਹਜੇ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੩॥
आपे मनि वसिआ प्रभु करता सहजे रहिआ समाई ॥३॥
Āpė man vasi&shy;ā parabẖ karṯā sehjė rahi&shy;ā samā&shy;ī. ||3||
God, the Creator Himself, dwells within the mind; remain absorbed in the state of intuitive balance. ||3||
ਇਕਨਾ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਭਾਵੈ ਬੰਧਨਿ ਬੰਧਿ ਭਵਾਇਆ ॥
इकना मनमुखि सबदु न भावै बंधनि बंधि भवाइआ ॥
Iknā manmukẖ sabaḏ na bẖāvai banḏẖan banḏẖ bẖavā&shy;i&shy;ā.
Some are self-willed manmukhs; they do not love the Word of the Shabad. Bound in chains, they wander lost in reincarnation.
ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥੪॥
लख चउरासीह फिरि फिरि आवै बिरथा जनमु गवाइआ ॥४॥
Lakẖ cẖa&shy;orāsīh fir fir āvai birthā janam gavā&shy;i&shy;ā. ||4||
Through 8.4 million lifetimes, they wander over and over again; they waste away their lives in vain. ||4||
ਭਗਤਾ ਮਨਿ ਆਨੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੇ ॥
भगता मनि आनंदु है सचै सबदि रंगि राते ॥
Bẖagṯā man ānanḏ hai sacẖai sabaḏ rang rāṯė.
In the minds of the devotees there is bliss; they are attuned to the Love of the True Word of the Shabad.
ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਦ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਸਹਜੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਤੇ ॥੫॥
अनदिनु गुण गावहि सद निरमल सहजे नामि समाते ॥५॥
An&shy;ḏin guṇ gāvahi saḏ nirmal sehjė nām samāṯė. ||5||
Night and day, they constantly sing the Glories of the Immaculate Lord; with intuitive ease, they are absorbed into the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||5||
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਸਭ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਣੀ ॥
गुरमुखि अम्रित बाणी बोलहि सभ आतम रामु पछाणी ॥
Gurmukẖ amriṯ baṇī boleh sabẖ āṯam rām pacẖẖāṇī.
The Gurmukhs speak the Ambrosial Bani; they recognize the Lord, the Supreme Soul in all.
ਏਕੋ ਸੇਵਨਿ ਏਕੁ ਅਰਾਧਹਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਕਥ ਕਹਾਣੀ ॥੬॥
एको सेवनि एकु अराधहि गुरमुखि अकथ कहाणी ॥६॥
Ėko sėvan ėk arāḏẖeh gurmukẖ akath kahāṇī. ||6||
They serve the One; they worship and adore the One. The Gurmukhs speak the Unspoken Speech. ||6||
ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥
सचा साहिबु सेवीऐ गुरमुखि वसै मनि आइ ॥
Sacẖā sāhib sėvī&shy;ai gurmukẖ vasai man ā&shy;ė.
The Gurmukhs serve their True Lord and Master, who comes to dwell in the mind.
ਸਦਾ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੇ ਸਚ ਸਿਉ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥੭॥
सदा रंगि राते सच सिउ अपुनी किरपा करे मिलाइ ॥७॥
Saḏā rang rāṯė sacẖ si&shy;o apunī kirpā karė milā&shy;ė. ||7||
They are forever attuned to the Love of the True One, who bestows His Mercy and unites them with Himself. ||7||
ਆਪੇ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪੇ ਇਕਨਾ ਸੁਤਿਆ ਦੇਇ ਜਗਾਇ ॥
आपे करे कराए आपे इकना सुतिआ देइ जगाइ ॥
Āpė karė karā&shy;ė āpė iknā suṯi&shy;ā ḏė&shy;ė jagā&shy;ė.
He Himself does, and He Himself causes others to do; He wakes some from their sleep.
ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਦਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੮॥੭॥੨੪॥
आपे मेलि मिलाइदा नानक सबदि समाइ ॥८॥७॥२४॥
Āpė mėl milā&shy;iḏā Nānak sabaḏ samā&shy;ė. ||8||7||24||
He Himself unites us in Union; Nanak is absorbed in the Shabad. ||8||7||24||


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Source:wikipedia


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## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Cyber Sangat Ji,

A few words on EULOGISING GOD:


Waheguru, The Great Master is EULOGISED in the company of the holy: Gurbani(PURA GURU), Sangat of those who believe in Pura Guru; not in the company of those who write: 'I DOUBT SIKH GURU'S AND GURSIKHS WHEN THEY SAY GURU'S WORDS-THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN GURU AND GOD'. 

If Guru says IT IS SO- then it is so, Gursikh sangat dont sit and discuss- 'How CAN Guru Say This, as I dont believe it'? 

Gursikhs reaspect Gurbani- ALL OF IT, NOT JUST WHAT SUITS THEM AND THEIR LIFESTYLE. They change their thought process and life style according to Guru's Word.

EULOGISING happens by believing every word of GURU, not by doubting one and accepting the other. Guru Sahib has given very clear instructions on the type of Sangat one should do and do'nt.


 gavaiaa sunaiaa tina ka thanai pavay jina satguru ki agyaa sat sat kar manee(please forgive me for my spellings)

Tuhada Das
Yograj


"ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ।" 
paarabrahamu pooran brahamu guru govindu siaanai soee|
The fact that the transcendental Brahm is the prefect Brahm and the Guru is God, is only identified by a gurmukh, the Guru-orientated one.


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## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Tu Thakur by Dya Singh Australia at AllPunjabi.com



Sikh80 said:


> The Bani Of Guru Nanak Dev ji clearly points out that The Creator is a different entity.
> ਤੂ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਤੁਮ ਪਹਿ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਰਾਸਿ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਹਮ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਤੇਰੇ ॥ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਮਹਿ ਸੂਖ ਘਨੇਰੇ ॥ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ॥ ਊਚੇ ਤੇ ਊਚਾ ਭਗਵੰਤ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਸਮਗ੍ਰੀ ਤੁਮਰੈ ਸੂਤ੍ਰਿ ਧਾਰੀ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਆਗਿਆਕਾਰੀ ॥ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਗਤਿ ਮਿਤਿ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਜਾਨੀ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਸਦਾ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੀ ॥੮॥੪॥


 
Listen to the above audio file.


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## Archived_Member_19

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

nice website...thx for the link 

but it has irritating ad pages


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Pyramid said:


> Cyber Sangat Ji,
> 
> A few words on EULOGISING GOD:
> 
> 
> Waheguru, The Great Master is EULOGISED in the company of the holy: Gurbani(PURA GURU), Sangat of those who believe in Pura Guru; not in the company of those who write: 'I DOUBT SIKH GURU'S AND GURSIKHS WHEN THEY SAY GURU'S WORDS-THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN GURU AND GOD'.
> 
> If Guru says IT IS SO- then it is so, Gursikh sangat dont sit and discuss- 'How CAN Guru Say This, as I dont believe it'?
> 
> Gursikhs reaspect Gurbani- ALL OF IT, NOT JUST WHAT SUITS THEM AND THEIR LIFESTYLE. They change their thought process and life style according to Guru's Word.
> 
> EULOGISING happens by believing every word of GURU, not by doubting one and accepting the other. Guru Sahib has given very clear instructions on the type of Sangat one should do and do'nt.
> 
> 
> gavaiaa sunaiaa tina ka thanai pavay jina satguru ki agyaa sat sat kar manee(please forgive me for my spellings)
> 
> Tuhada Das
> Yograj
> 
> 
> "ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ।"
> paarabrahamu pooran brahamu guru govindu siaanai soee|
> The fact that the transcendental Brahm is the prefect Brahm and the Guru is God, is only identified by a gurmukh, the Guru-orientated one.


 
Dear Pyramid ji,

I do agree with you at many places that Gurbani is to be eulogised in totality. However, I am also quoting from gurbani to support my point. I am not very old to sikhi.May be an year + and that is all. I am not at all well read like you. I am in the process of making my concepts. I make the concepts after consulting Granth sahib ji as my basis. Hope this is the only method available to all of us.
There are times when we have points of differences and we sort them out peacefully without making the sangat getting involved at all. it is reciprocal. You clear my doubts and I shall clear yours.I shall look into points and you look into my point. I think it is only then that we can have a unanimous decision. We are not playing games here and decide as to who wins.You have wider access to gurbani as you have wider exposure to gurbani.
Kindly consider this.
Rest of us may be 80 percent are dumb watchers and some are simply put leg pullers. Let them do that what they do.
That should not deter us from finding as to that is correct.I love Nanak dev ji as much as you love.
Hell is not going break lose if I am wrong or vice versa.At the end we all are HIS product.
Regards. and please do resond.
Rab Rakha
e&oe.


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## Archived_Member_19

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

sikh80 ji

what will happen once there is unanimous decision?

is there any new truth other than the truth already known?


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Truth is always a constant, ever shining and ever gleaming;it is our understanding that may require re-orienation sometimes.But  the tructh peeps into our eyes in the sound of silience .


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## Archived_Member_19

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

<<But the tructh peeps into our eyes in the sound of silience .>>

too much pink floyd??


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



amarsanghera said:


> <<But the tructh peeps into our eyes in the sound of silience .>>
> 
> too much pink floyd??


 
*Truth is never in a gender Form. But May be you know something else.*

*It is self existent. Saibhang. Ever existent. It was ,is and shall be.The Supreme Being..Supreme Being who is the source and support of the spatio temporal material world..*



*Quote:*
Originally Posted by Pyramid 

 
Cyber Sangat Ji,

A few words on EULOGISING GOD:


Waheguru, The Great Master is EULOGISED in the company of the holy: Gurbani(PURA GURU), Sangat of those who believe in Pura Guru; not in the company of those who write: 'I DOUBT SIKH GURU'S AND GURSIKHS WHEN THEY SAY GURU'S WORDS-THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN GURU AND GOD'. 

If Guru says IT IS SO- then it is so, Gursikh sangat dont sit and discuss- 'How CAN Guru Say This, as I dont believe it'? 

Gursikhs reaspect Gurbani- ALL OF IT, NOT JUST WHAT SUITS THEM AND THEIR LIFESTYLE. They change their thought process and life style according to Guru's Word.

EULOGISING happens by believing every word of GURU, not by doubting one and accepting the other. Guru Sahib has given very clear instructions on the type of Sangat one should do and do'nt.


gavaiaa sunaiaa tina ka thanai pavay jina satguru ki agyaa sat sat kar manee(please forgive me for my spellings)

Tuhada Das
Yograj


"ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ।" 
paarabrahamu pooran brahamu guru govindu siaanai soee|
The fact that the transcendental Brahm is the prefect Brahm and the Guru is God, is only identified by a gurmukh, the Guru-orientated one.

Dear Pyramid ji,

I do agree with you at many places that Gurbani is to be eulogised in totality. However, I am also quoting from gurbani to support my point. I am not very old to sikhi.May be an year + and that is all. I am not at all well read like you. I am in the process of making my concepts. I make the concepts after consulting Granth sahib ji as my basis. Hope this is the only method available to all of us.
There are times when we have points of differences and we sort them out peacefully without making the sangat getting involved at all. it is reciprocal. You clear my doubts and I shall clear yours.I shall look into points and you look into my point. I think it is only then that we can have a unanimous decision. We are not playing games here and decide as to who wins.You have wider access to gurbani as you have wider exposure to gurbani.
Kindly consider this.
Rest of us may be 80 percent are dumb watchers and some are simply put leg pullers. Let them do that what they do.
That should not deter us from finding as to that is correct.I love Nanak dev ji as much as you love.
Hell is not going break lose if I am wrong or vice versa.At the end we all are HIS product.
Regards. and please do resond.
Rab Rakha
e&oe.
________________


----------



## paapi_banda

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



BhagatSingh said:


> I think your translation is a bit off. Sounds to me like Guru Nanak is saying something and not being called anything. Something to do with God being everything, the Jot and Roop. Try posting the whole shabad, it will clear things up a bit.
> 
> Assuming,you are right. Does that mean Guru Gobind Singh as well?


 

Gurfateh Veer, This is the Bani of Bhatt Mathura ji in Shri Guru Granth Sahib. Bhatt Mathura ji is telling us tht who is Guru Nanak Devji in real.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



paapi_banda said:


> Gurfateh Veer, This is the Bani of Bhatt Mathura ji in Shri Guru Granth Sahib. Bhatt Mathura ji is telling us tht who is Guru Nanak Devji in real.


 
I was thinking of posting this myself but there was some problem with server at my end. It is good that you have done.I shall respond after some other member offers comments.


Regards to all.


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## kaur-1

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Pyramid said:


> Sikh80 Ji,
> 
> I dont need to discuss anything with you, you contradict yourself, and you dont believe in Guru's words and consistently arguing to prove them wrong. What makes you believe that I want to disscuss it with you? YOUR EGO, INNOCENCE OR WHAT?
> 
> I was replying specifically to- AAD0002, AMARSANGHERA and SURINDER. I already told you not to reply me in my post:189- go read it, if you didn't read it before. You made yourself a halla bol guy. I have no interest in talking to you dear friend.
> 
> I believe in every word in aad0002, amarsanghera and Surinder Ji's posts, AND I WOULD LIKE THEM TO ENLIGHTEN US MORE, DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM?
> 
> Tuhada Das
> Yograj
> 
> "ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ।"
> paarabrahamu pooran brahamu guru govindu siaanai soee|
> The fact that the transcendental Brahm is the prefect Brahm and the Guru is God, is only identified by a gurmukh, the Guru-orientated one.



I agree with you regarding sikh80. Sikh80 has stated he has just started learning but it seems that when sangat try's to explain to him he does not take the time to do vichaar on the subject posted especially on Gurbani.

'Besoft' (as you are known in sikhsangat), please try and take your time to read more Gurbani especially starting with Jap Ji sahib. 

This will help you and 'bhagat singh' especially understand the concept of Nirgun and Sargun amongst other valuable Gurmat.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Back to Kaur from Kaur ji

Not much   that you have stated makes sense to me. If you want to day dream ,please continue. 

What is sargun and nirgun to do with the above post. 
Figment of imaginations of the brains of sikhs of N ottingham living in dehli, May be,it is your problem.


Yes, I am learning Gurbani. What do you think you are doing here? Doing your kitchen work or laundary.

You are doing as per aad Gurmat VIchaar in this Post. What is your VIchaar about the post Of Paapi_Banda. Please comment on this instead of advising. There are many advisers here on the forum and  I can do without any addition.
As they say..hypocrite


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## kaur-1

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sikh80 said:


> Back to Kaur from Kaur ji
> 
> Not much   that you have stated makes sense to me. If you want to day dream ,please continue.
> 
> What is sargun and nirgun to do with the above post.
> Figment of imaginations of the brains of sikhs of N ottingham living in dehli, May be,it is your problem.
> 
> 
> Yes, I am learning Gurbani. What do you think you are doing here? Doing your kitchen work or laundary.
> 
> You are doing as per aad Gurmat VIchaar in this Post. What is your VIchaar about the post Of Paapi_Banda. Please comment on this instead of advising. There are many advisers here on the forum and  I can do without any addition.
> As they say..hypocrite




My comments have been from many days of you posting and the way you have been responding to various members. Just read your last post to me again.

I am not stopping you from your search. I am just advising you to read Jap Ji sahib and do vichaar on it at least. You're posting so much cut paste but I can see that you are getting confuse in some cases. Take it a slower pace. Thats all.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Thanks that you care so much for someone not known to you. I ,generally, do not take advice from those not friendly. My intution asks me to stick to it kaur.


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## kaur-1

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Yes we can see that very clearly.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



kaur-1 said:


> Yes we can see that very clearly.


 
Good that you do.Are you more than one Kaur.?stop crying like a babe.


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## kaur-1

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

I am not exactly a perfect person but your behaviour and comments not only to me now but to other members is filled of "I" ness and lack of humility.

I am sure there is a cut paste post of yours with the above mentioned subjects.

I am also sure there is a cut paste post of yours which tells you that we must leave our 'mat' out when we try and contemplate Gurbani. There should be no doubts in your mind.


Find your cut and paste on the definition of a manmukh. A manmukh cannot progress in spirituality.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

<> siq nwmu krqw purKu inrBau inrvYru Akwl mUriq AjUnI sYBM gur pRswid ] (1-1, mÚ 1)

*Last Years Of Nanak*

Spending the last fifteen years of his life in Kartarpur, 


 Awpy siqguru Awip hir Awpy myil imlwie ] (41-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 4)
He Himself is the True Guru; He Himself is the Lord. He Himself unites in His Union.
 Awip dieAw kir mylsI gur siqgur pICY pwie ] (41-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 4)
In His Kindness, He unites us with Himself, as we follow the Guru, the True Guru.


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## Archived_Member_19

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

did jesus walk on water?


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

_*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I am posting below the bani of Sri Guru Nanak dev ji Maharaj. The bani shows that Guru ji Maharaj , in his weaker moments, is complaing to GOD about the atrocities of the Moguls who were the descendents of Taimur and Chengez Khan who are notorious for atrocities, plunder and disgracing women in the areas they captivated and plundered.[/FONT]*_


_*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The colored lines of the translation is indicative of the emotional turmoil that Guru ji had to under go during the period of attack.[/FONT]*_

*I am a sikh and shall die the same way and have least intention of stating that is not evidenced and supported by Bani. It is an unplesant task.However, reality cannot be denied.*

*Guru ji might have attained the status of satguru of vaheguru but I have nothing to support. Hence I cannot say that he was 'vaheguru' Himself.I shall also not take up any question on this.If you have some observations , kindly post them. I shall take up enblock tomorrow.*
*In the meatime kindly forgive if in the process some one feels upset.I also feel so while writing this.*





_*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](Rag Asa, pg. 360)[/FONT]*_
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Having attacked Khuraasaan, Babar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death. There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord? || 1 || O Creator Lord, You are the Master of all. If some powerful man strikes out against another man, then no one feels any grief in their mind. || 1 || Pause || But if a powerful tiger attacks a flock of sheep and kills them, then its master must answer for it. This priceless country has been laid waste and defiled by dogs, and no one pays any attention to the dead. You Yourself unite, and You Yourself separate; I gaze upon Your Glorious Greatness. || 2 || One may give himself a great name, and revel in the pleasures of the mind, but in the Eyes of the Lord and Master, he is just a worm, for all the corn that he eats. Only one who dies to his ego while yet alive, obtains the blessings, O Nanak, by chanting the Lord's Name. [/FONT]


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## BhagatSingh

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



amarsanghera said:


> did jesus walk on water?


If he existed maybe...
I heard there was magician who did that as well.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*I am posting below the bani of Sri Guru Nanak dev ji Maharaj. The bani shows that Guru ji Maharaj , in his weaker moments, is complaing to GOD about the atrocities of the Moguls who were the descendents of Taimur and Chengez Khan who are notorious for atrocities, plunder and disgracing women in the areas they captivated,looted and plundered.*

_*The colored lines of the translation is indicative of the emotional turmoil that Guru ji had to under go during the period of attack.*_

*I am a sikh and shall die the same way and have least intention of stating that is not evidenced and supported by Bani. It is an unplesant task.However, reality cannot be denied.*

*Guru ji might have attained the status of satguru or vaheguru but I have nothing to support. Hence I cannot say that he was 'vaheguru' Himself.I shall also not take up any question on this.If you have some observations , kindly post them. I shall take up enblock tomorrow.*
*In the meatime kindly forgive if in the process some one feels upset.I also feel so while writing this.*

_*[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](Rag Asa, pg. 360)[/FONT]*_
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Having attacked Khuraasaan, Babar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death. There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord? || 1 || O Creator Lord, You are the Master of all. If some powerful man strikes out against another man, then no one feels any grief in their mind. || 1 || Pause || But if a powerful tiger attacks a flock of sheep and kills them, then its master must answer for it. This priceless country has been laid waste and defiled by dogs, and no one pays any attention to the dead. You Yourself unite, and You Yourself separate; I gaze upon Your Glorious Greatness. || 2 || One may give himself a great name, and revel in the pleasures of the mind, but in the Eyes of the Lord and Master, he is just a worm, for all the corn that he eats. Only one who dies to his ego while yet alive, obtains the blessings, O Nanak, by chanting the Lord's Name.[/FONT]


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## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sikh80 ji, What is enblock?

Also though some may be upset, no one is surprised that you are asking this question. Or using this example. In fact I have been wondering when you would do it. Now you have.

All goes back to whether or not one is able to read Gurbani from the perspective of its poetic context.  And in light of the literary form of the particular line you have colored in.

It has been a long day and I do not have the endurance to react to your question. We have, the sangat, talked about the poetic form of Gurbani in other threads that may help you in understanding the line. There is nothing in the line to suggest that Guruji is complaining to God in a "weaker moment" or experiencing "inner turmoil," or has lost it in any way. In fact that is impossible. Maybe someone else can take this up: it is impossible for Guruji _to lose it_ so to speak.


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## Archived_Member_19

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

ਤਿਲੰਗ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ 
तिलंग मः १ ॥ 
Ŧilang mehlā 1. 
Tilang, First Mehl: 

ਇਆਨੜੀਏ ਮਾਨੜਾ ਕਾਇ ਕਰੇਹਿ ॥ 
इआनड़ीए मानड़ा काइ करेहि ॥ 
I&shy;ānṛī&shy;ė mānṛā kā&shy;ė karėhi. 
O foolish and ignorant soul-bride, why are you so proud? 

ਆਪਨੜੈ ਘਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗੋ ਕੀ ਨ ਮਾਣੇਹਿ ॥ 
आपनड़ै घरि हरि रंगो की न माणेहि ॥ 
Āpnaṛai gẖar har rango kī na māṇeh. 
Within the home of your own self, why do you not enjoy the Love of your Lord? 

ਸਹੁ ਨੇੜੈ ਧਨ ਕੰਮਲੀਏ ਬਾਹਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਢੂਢੇਹਿ ॥ 
सहु नेड़ै धन कमलीए बाहरु किआ ढूढेहि ॥ 
Saho nėṛai ḏẖan kammlī&shy;ė bāhar ki&shy;ā dẖūdẖėhi. 
Your Husband Lord is so very near, O foolish bride; why do you search for Him outside? 

ਭੈ ਕੀਆ ਦੇਹਿ ਸਲਾਈਆ ਨੈਣੀ ਭਾਵ ਕਾ ਕਰਿ ਸੀਗਾਰੋ ॥ 
भै कीआ देहि सलाईआ नैणी भाव का करि सीगारो ॥ 
Bẖai kī&shy;ā ḏeh salā&shy;ī&shy;ā naiṇī bẖāv kā kar sīgāro. 
Apply the Fear of God as the maascara to adorn your eyes, and make the Love of the Lord your ornament. 

ਤਾ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਲਾਗੀ ਜਾ ਸਹੁ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੋ ॥੧॥ 
ता सोहागणि जाणीऐ लागी जा सहु धरे पिआरो ॥१॥ 
Ŧā sohagaṇ jāṇī&shy;ai lāgī jā saho ḏẖarė pi&shy;āro. ||1|| 
Then, you shall be known as a devoted and committed soul-bride, when you enshrine love for your Husband Lord. ||1|| 

ਇਆਣੀ ਬਾਲੀ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੇ ਜਾ ਧਨ ਕੰਤ ਨ ਭਾਵੈ ॥ 
इआणी बाली किआ करे जा धन कंत न भावै ॥ 
I&shy;āṇī bālī ki&shy;ā karė jā ḏẖan kanṯ na bẖāvai. 
What can the silly young bride do, if she is not pleasing to her Husband Lord? 

ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਹ ਕਰੇ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੇ ਸਾ ਧਨ ਮਹਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ 
करण पलाह करे बहुतेरे सा धन महलु न पावै ॥ 
Karaṇ palāh karė bahuṯėrė sā ḏẖan mahal na pāvai. 
She may plead and implore so many times, but still, such a bride shall not obtain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence. 

ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਜੇ ਬਹੁਤੇਰਾ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ 
विणु करमा किछु पाईऐ नाही जे बहुतेरा धावै ॥ 
viṇ karmā kicẖẖ pā&shy;ī&shy;ai nāhī jė bahuṯėrā ḏẖāvai. 
Without the karma of good deeds, nothing is obtained, although she may run around frantically. 

ਲਬ ਲੋਭ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਕੀ ਮਾਤੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥ 
लब लोभ अहंकार की माती माइआ माहि समाणी ॥ 
Lab lobẖ ahaŉkār kī māṯī mā&shy;i&shy;ā māhi samāṇī. 
She is intoxicated with greed, pride and egotism, and engrossed in Maya. 

ਇਨੀ ਬਾਤੀ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਭਈ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਇਆਣੀ ॥੨॥ 
इनी बाती सहु पाईऐ नाही भई कामणि इआणी ॥२॥ 
Inī bāṯī saho pā&shy;ī&shy;ai nāhī bẖa&shy;ī kāmaṇ i&shy;āṇī. ||2|| 
She cannot obtain her Husband Lord in these ways; the young bride is so foolish! ||2|| 

ਜਾਇ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਵਾਹੈ ਕਿਨੀ ਬਾਤੀ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ 
जाइ पुछहु सोहागणी वाहै किनी बाती सहु पाईऐ ॥ 
Jā&shy;ė pucẖẖahu sohāgaṇī vāhai kinī bāṯī saho pā&shy;ī&shy;ai. 
Go and ask the happy, pure soul-brides, how did they obtain their Husband Lord? 

ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰੇ ਸੋ ਭਲਾ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੀਐ ਹਿਕਮਤਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਈਐ ॥ 
जो किछु करे सो भला करि मानीऐ हिकमति हुकमु चुकाईऐ ॥ 
Jo kicẖẖ karė so bẖalā kar mānī&shy;ai hikmaṯ hukam cẖukẖā&shy;ī&shy;ai. 
Whatever the Lord does, accept that as good; do away with your own cleverness and self-will. 

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰੇਮਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਉ ਚਰਣੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਈਐ ॥ 
जा कै प्रेमि पदारथु पाईऐ तउ चरणी चितु लाईऐ ॥ 
Jā kai parėm paḏārath pā&shy;ī&shy;ai ṯa&shy;o cẖarṇī cẖiṯ lā&shy;ī&shy;ai. 
By His Love, true wealth is obtained; link your consciousness to His lotus feet. 

ਸਹੁ ਕਹੈ ਸੋ ਕੀਜੈ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੋ ਦੀਜੈ ਐਸਾ ਪਰਮਲੁ ਲਾਈਐ ॥ 
सहु कहै सो कीजै तनु मनो दीजै ऐसा परमलु लाईऐ ॥ 
Saho kahai so kījai ṯan mano ḏījai aisā parmal lā&shy;ī&shy;ai. 
As your Husband Lord directs, so you must act; surrender your body and mind to Him, and apply this perfume to yourself. 

ਏਵ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਭੈਣੇ ਇਨੀ ਬਾਤੀ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੩॥ 
एव कहहि सोहागणी भैणे इनी बाती सहु पाईऐ ॥३॥ 
Ėv kaheh sohāgaṇī bẖaiṇė inī bāṯī saho pā&shy;ī&shy;ai. ||3|| 
So speaks the happy soul-bride, O sister; in this way, the Husband Lord is obtained. ||3|| 

ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਈਐ ਤਾ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਉਰੁ ਕੈਸੀ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ॥ 
आपु गवाईऐ ता सहु पाईऐ अउरु कैसी चतुराई ॥ 
Āp gavā&shy;ī&shy;ai ṯā saho pā&shy;ī&shy;ai a&shy;or kaisī cẖaṯurā&shy;ī. 
Give up your selfhood, and so obtain your Husband Lord; what other clever tricks are of any use? 

ਸਹੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਸੋ ਦਿਨੁ ਲੇਖੈ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ 
सहु नदरि करि देखै सो दिनु लेखै कामणि नउ निधि पाई ॥ 
Saho naḏar kar ḏėkẖai so ḏin lėkẖai kāmaṇ na&shy;o niḏẖ pā&shy;ī. 
When the Husband Lord looks upon the soul-bride with His Gracious Glance, that day is historic - the bride obtains the nine treasures. 

ਆਪਣੇ ਕੰਤ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਸਾ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾ ਸਭਰਾਈ ॥ 
आपणे कंत पिआरी सा सोहागणि नानक सा सभराई ॥ 
Āpṇė kanṯ pi&shy;ārī sā sohagaṇ Nānak sā sabẖrā&shy;ī. 
She who is loved by her Husband Lord, is the true soul-bride; O Nanak, she is the queen of all. 

ਐਸੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਸਹਜ ਕੀ ਮਾਤੀ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਭਾਇ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥ 
ऐसै रंगि राती सहज की माती अहिनिसि भाइ समाणी ॥ 
Aisė rang rāṯī sahj kī māṯī ahinis bẖā&shy;ė samāṇī. 
Thus she is imbued with His Love, intoxicated with delight; day and night, she is absorbed in His Love. 

ਸੁੰਦਰਿ ਸਾਇ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਚਖਣਿ ਕਹੀਐ ਸਾ ਸਿਆਣੀ ॥੪॥੨॥੪॥ 
सुंदरि साइ सरूप बिचखणि कहीऐ सा सिआणी ॥४॥२॥४॥ 
Sunḏar sā&shy;ė sarūp bicẖkẖaṇ kahī&shy;ai sā si&shy;āṇī. ||4||2||4|| 
She is beautiful, glorious and brilliant; she is known as truly wise. ||4||2||4|| 

please donot consider the translations as accurate !!


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

the word should have read 
en block ~or still better ~
en bloc [together]hope it is ok now. MY poor english.

One has the right to interpret the things as per that you said in some post as understanding.Whatever we understand by the words is that what it means to us.

If someone is crying, it may mean that one is doing out of pleasure or out of pain. We can keep on arguing about this but the end result is that which suits us.


Regarding your prognosis it is to very fine. It is a gift of the providence. 

I have no comments to make further .

~ssa~
[sorry sanghera ji,I think you had posted when I was writing]



amarsanghera said:


> ਤਿਲੰਗ ਮਃ ੧ ॥
> तिलंग मः १ ॥
> Ŧilang mehlā 1.
> Tilang, First Mehl:
> 
> ਇਆਨੜੀਏ ਮਾਨੜਾ ਕਾਇ ਕਰੇਹਿ ॥
> इआनड़ीए मानड़ा काइ करेहि ॥
> I&shy;ānṛī&shy;ė mānṛā kā&shy;ė karėhi.
> O foolish and ignorant soul-bride, why are you so proud?
> 
> ਆਪਨੜੈ ਘਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗੋ ਕੀ ਨ ਮਾਣੇਹਿ ॥
> आपनड़ै घरि हरि रंगो की न माणेहि ॥
> Āpnaṛai gẖar har rang
> o kī na māṇeh.
> Within the home of your own self, why do you not enjoy the Love of your Lord?
> 
> ਸਹੁ ਨੇੜੈ ਧਨ ਕੰਮਲੀਏ ਬਾਹਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਢੂਢੇਹਿ ॥
> सहु नेड़ै धन कमलीए बाहरु किआ ढूढेहि ॥
> Saho nėṛai ḏẖan kammlī&shy;ė bāhar ki&shy;ā dẖūdẖėhi.
> Your Husband Lord is so very near, O foolish bride; why do you search for Him outside?
> 
> ਭੈ ਕੀਆ ਦੇਹਿ ਸਲਾਈਆ ਨੈਣੀ ਭਾਵ ਕਾ ਕਰਿ ਸੀਗਾਰੋ ॥
> भै कीआ देहि सलाईआ नैणी भाव का करि सीगारो ॥
> Bẖai kī&shy;ā ḏeh salā&shy;ī&shy;ā naiṇī bẖāv kā kar sīgāro.
> Apply the Fear of God as the maascara to adorn your eyes, and make the Love of the Lord your ornament.
> 
> ਤਾ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਲਾਗੀ ਜਾ ਸਹੁ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੋ ॥੧॥
> ता सोहागणि जाणीऐ लागी जा सहु धरे पिआरो ॥१॥
> Ŧā sohagaṇ jāṇī&shy;ai lāgī jā saho ḏẖarė pi&shy;āro. ||1||
> Then, you shall be known as a devoted and committed soul-bride, when you enshrine love for your Husband Lord. ||1||
> 
> ਇਆਣੀ ਬਾਲੀ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੇ ਜਾ ਧਨ ਕੰਤ ਨ ਭਾਵੈ ॥
> इआणी बाली किआ करे जा धन कंत न भावै ॥
> I&shy;āṇī bālī ki&shy;ā karė jā ḏẖan kanṯ na bẖāvai.
> What can the silly young bride do, if she is not pleasing to her Husband Lord?
> 
> ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਹ ਕਰੇ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੇ ਸਾ ਧਨ ਮਹਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
> करण पलाह करे बहुतेरे सा धन महलु न पावै ॥
> Karaṇ palāh karė bahuṯėrė sā ḏẖan mahal na pāvai.
> She may plead and implore so many times, but still, such a bride shall not obtain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence.
> 
> ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਜੇ ਬਹੁਤੇਰਾ ਧਾਵੈ ॥
> विणु करमा किछु पाईऐ नाही जे बहुतेरा धावै ॥
> viṇ karmā kicẖẖ pā&shy;ī&shy;ai nāhī jė bahuṯėrā ḏẖāvai.
> Without the karma of good deeds, nothing is obtained, although she may run around frantically.
> 
> ਲਬ ਲੋਭ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਕੀ ਮਾਤੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥
> लब लोभ अहंकार की माती माइआ माहि समाणी ॥
> Lab lobẖ ahaŉkār kī māṯī mā&shy;i&shy;ā māhi samāṇī.
> She is intoxicated with greed, pride and egotism, and engrossed in Maya.
> 
> ਇਨੀ ਬਾਤੀ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਭਈ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਇਆਣੀ ॥੨॥
> इनी बाती सहु पाईऐ नाही भई कामणि इआणी ॥२॥
> Inī bāṯī saho pā&shy;ī&shy;ai nāhī bẖa&shy;ī kāmaṇ i&shy;āṇī. ||2||
> She cannot obtain her Husband Lord in these ways; the young bride is so foolish! ||2||
> 
> ਜਾਇ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਵਾਹੈ ਕਿਨੀ ਬਾਤੀ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
> जाइ पुछहु सोहागणी वाहै किनी बाती सहु पाईऐ ॥
> Jā&shy;ė pucẖẖahu sohāgaṇī vāhai kinī bāṯī saho pā&shy;ī&shy;ai.
> Go and ask the happy, pure soul-brides, how did they obtain their Husband Lord?
> 
> ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰੇ ਸੋ ਭਲਾ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੀਐ ਹਿਕਮਤਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਈਐ ॥
> जो किछु करे सो भला करि मानीऐ हिकमति हुकमु चुकाईऐ ॥
> Jo kicẖẖ karė so bẖalā kar mānī&shy;ai hikmaṯ hukam cẖukẖā&shy;ī&shy;ai.
> Whatever the Lord does, accept that as good; do away with your own cleverness and self-will.
> 
> ਜਾ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰੇਮਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਉ ਚਰਣੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਈਐ ॥
> जा कै प्रेमि पदारथु पाईऐ तउ चरणी चितु लाईऐ ॥
> Jā kai parėm paḏārath pā&shy;ī&shy;ai ṯa&shy;o cẖarṇī cẖiṯ lā&shy;ī&shy;ai.
> By His Love, true wealth is obtained; link your consciousness to His lotus feet.
> 
> ਸਹੁ ਕਹੈ ਸੋ ਕੀਜੈ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੋ ਦੀਜੈ ਐਸਾ ਪਰਮਲੁ ਲਾਈਐ ॥
> सहु कहै सो कीजै तनु मनो दीजै ऐसा परमलु लाईऐ ॥
> Saho kahai so kījai ṯan mano ḏījai aisā parmal lā&shy;ī&shy;ai.
> As your Husband Lord directs, so you must act; surrender your body and mind to Him, and apply this perfume to yourself.
> 
> ਏਵ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਭੈਣੇ ਇਨੀ ਬਾਤੀ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੩॥
> एव कहहि सोहागणी भैणे इनी बाती सहु पाईऐ ॥३॥
> Ėv kaheh sohāgaṇī bẖaiṇė inī bāṯī saho pā&shy;ī&shy;ai. ||3||
> So speaks the happy soul-bride, O sister; in this way, the Husband Lord is obtained. ||3||
> 
> ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਈਐ ਤਾ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਉਰੁ ਕੈਸੀ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ॥
> आपु गवाईऐ ता सहु पाईऐ अउरु कैसी चतुराई ॥
> Āp gavā&shy;ī&shy;ai ṯā saho pā&shy;ī&shy;ai a&shy;or kaisī cẖaṯurā&shy;ī.
> Give up your selfhood, and so obtain your Husband Lord; what other clever tricks are of any use?
> 
> ਸਹੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਸੋ ਦਿਨੁ ਲੇਖੈ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ ॥
> सहु नदरि करि देखै सो दिनु लेखै कामणि नउ निधि पाई ॥
> Saho naḏar kar ḏėkẖai so ḏin lėkẖai kāmaṇ na&shy;o niḏẖ pā&shy;ī.
> When the Husband Lord looks upon the soul-bride with His Gracious Glance, that day is historic - the bride obtains the nine treasures.
> 
> ਆਪਣੇ ਕੰਤ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਸਾ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾ ਸਭਰਾਈ ॥
> आपणे कंत पिआरी सा सोहागणि नानक सा सभराई ॥
> Āpṇė kanṯ pi&shy;ārī sā sohagaṇ Nānak sā sabẖrā&shy;ī.
> She who is loved by her Husband Lord, is the true soul-bride; O Nanak, she is the queen of all.
> 
> ਐਸੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਸਹਜ ਕੀ ਮਾਤੀ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਭਾਇ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥
> ऐसै रंगि राती सहज की माती अहिनिसि भाइ समाणी ॥
> Aisė rang rāṯī sahj kī māṯī ahinis bẖā&shy;ė samāṇī.
> Thus she is imbued with His Love, intoxicated with delight; day and night, she is absorbed in His Love.
> 
> ਸੁੰਦਰਿ ਸਾਇ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਚਖਣਿ ਕਹੀਐ ਸਾ ਸਿਆਣੀ ॥੪॥੨॥੪॥
> सुंदरि साइ सरूप बिचखणि कहीऐ सा सिआणी ॥४॥२॥४॥
> Sunḏar sā&shy;ė sarūp bicẖkẖaṇ kahī&shy;ai sā si&shy;āṇī. ||4||2||4||
> She is beautiful, glorious and brilliant; she is known as truly wise. ||4||2||4||
> 
> please donot consider the translations as accurate !!


 

Respected Amar ji,
The above post was not read as it crossed mine.However, it is very informative post. You have already highlighted the important lines. I do not understand many lines. The most important of which seems to me is 'fear Of God'. How do we develop it? Kindly do not spin it away. I am seriously asking about it.Have read articles but could not understand. If we accept death, the fear evaporates.Kindly explain in your words without taking recourse to gurmukhi or some extraneous article/post.

Regards.



amarsanghera said:


> ਤਿਲੰਗ ਮਃ ੧ ॥
> तिलंग मः १ ॥
> Ŧilang mehlā 1.
> Tilang, First Mehl:
> 
> ਇਆਨੜੀਏ ਮਾਨੜਾ ਕਾਇ ਕਰੇਹਿ ॥
> इआनड़ीए मानड़ा काइ करेहि ॥
> I&shy;ānṛī&shy;ė mānṛā kā&shy;ė karėhi.
> O foolish and ignorant soul-bride, why are you so proud?
> 
> ਆਪਨੜੈ ਘਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗੋ ਕੀ ਨ ਮਾਣੇਹਿ ॥
> आपनड़ै घरि हरि रंगो की न माणेहि ॥
> Āpnaṛai gẖar har rang
> o kī na māṇeh.
> Within the home of your own self, why do you not enjoy the Love of your Lord?
> 
> ਸਹੁ ਨੇੜੈ ਧਨ ਕੰਮਲੀਏ ਬਾਹਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਢੂਢੇਹਿ ॥
> सहु नेड़ै धन कमलीए बाहरु किआ ढूढेहि ॥
> Saho nėṛai ḏẖan kammlī&shy;ė bāhar ki&shy;ā dẖūdẖėhi.
> Your Husband Lord is so very near, O foolish bride; why do you search for Him outside?
> 
> ਭੈ ਕੀਆ ਦੇਹਿ ਸਲਾਈਆ ਨੈਣੀ ਭਾਵ ਕਾ ਕਰਿ ਸੀਗਾਰੋ ॥
> भै कीआ देहि सलाईआ नैणी भाव का करि सीगारो ॥
> Bẖai kī&shy;ā ḏeh salā&shy;ī&shy;ā naiṇī bẖāv kā kar sīgāro.
> Apply the Fear of God as the maascara to adorn your eyes, and make the Love of the Lord your ornament.
> 
> ਤਾ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਲਾਗੀ ਜਾ ਸਹੁ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੋ ॥੧॥
> ता सोहागणि जाणीऐ लागी जा सहु धरे पिआरो ॥१॥
> Ŧā sohagaṇ jāṇī&shy;ai lāgī jā saho ḏẖarė pi&shy;āro. ||1||
> Then, you shall be known as a devoted and committed soul-bride, when you enshrine love for your Husband Lord. ||1||
> 
> ਇਆਣੀ ਬਾਲੀ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੇ ਜਾ ਧਨ ਕੰਤ ਨ ਭਾਵੈ ॥
> इआणी बाली किआ करे जा धन कंत न भावै ॥
> I&shy;āṇī bālī ki&shy;ā karė jā ḏẖan kanṯ na bẖāvai.
> What can the silly young bride do, if she is not pleasing to her Husband Lord?
> 
> ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਹ ਕਰੇ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੇ ਸਾ ਧਨ ਮਹਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
> करण पलाह करे बहुतेरे सा धन महलु न पावै ॥
> Karaṇ palāh karė bahuṯėrė sā ḏẖan mahal na pāvai.
> She may plead and implore so many times, but still, such a bride shall not obtain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence.
> 
> ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਜੇ ਬਹੁਤੇਰਾ ਧਾਵੈ ॥
> विणु करमा किछु पाईऐ नाही जे बहुतेरा धावै ॥
> viṇ karmā kicẖẖ pā&shy;ī&shy;ai nāhī jė bahuṯėrā ḏẖāvai.
> Without the karma of good deeds, nothing is obtained, although she may run around frantically.
> 
> ਲਬ ਲੋਭ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਕੀ ਮਾਤੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥
> लब लोभ अहंकार की माती माइआ माहि समाणी ॥
> Lab lobẖ ahaŉkār kī māṯī mā&shy;i&shy;ā māhi samāṇī.
> She is intoxicated with greed, pride and egotism, and engrossed in Maya.
> 
> ਇਨੀ ਬਾਤੀ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਭਈ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਇਆਣੀ ॥੨॥
> इनी बाती सहु पाईऐ नाही भई कामणि इआणी ॥२॥
> Inī bāṯī saho pā&shy;ī&shy;ai nāhī bẖa&shy;ī kāmaṇ i&shy;āṇī. ||2||
> She cannot obtain her Husband Lord in these ways; the young bride is so foolish! ||2||
> 
> ਜਾਇ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਵਾਹੈ ਕਿਨੀ ਬਾਤੀ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
> जाइ पुछहु सोहागणी वाहै किनी बाती सहु पाईऐ ॥
> Jā&shy;ė pucẖẖahu sohāgaṇī vāhai kinī bāṯī saho pā&shy;ī&shy;ai.
> Go and ask the happy, pure soul-brides, how did they obtain their Husband Lord?
> 
> ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰੇ ਸੋ ਭਲਾ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੀਐ ਹਿਕਮਤਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਈਐ ॥
> जो किछु करे सो भला करि मानीऐ हिकमति हुकमु चुकाईऐ ॥
> Jo kicẖẖ karė so bẖalā kar mānī&shy;ai hikmaṯ hukam cẖukẖā&shy;ī&shy;ai.
> Whatever the Lord does, accept that as good; do away with your own cleverness and self-will.
> 
> ਜਾ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰੇਮਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਉ ਚਰਣੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਈਐ ॥
> जा कै प्रेमि पदारथु पाईऐ तउ चरणी चितु लाईऐ ॥
> Jā kai parėm paḏārath pā&shy;ī&shy;ai ṯa&shy;o cẖarṇī cẖiṯ lā&shy;ī&shy;ai.
> By His Love, true wealth is obtained; link your consciousness to His lotus feet.
> 
> ਸਹੁ ਕਹੈ ਸੋ ਕੀਜੈ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੋ ਦੀਜੈ ਐਸਾ ਪਰਮਲੁ ਲਾਈਐ ॥
> सहु कहै सो कीजै तनु मनो दीजै ऐसा परमलु लाईऐ ॥
> Saho kahai so kījai ṯan mano ḏījai aisā parmal lā&shy;ī&shy;ai.
> As your Husband Lord directs, so you must act; surrender your body and mind to Him, and apply this perfume to yourself.
> 
> ਏਵ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਭੈਣੇ ਇਨੀ ਬਾਤੀ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੩॥
> एव कहहि सोहागणी भैणे इनी बाती सहु पाईऐ ॥३॥
> Ėv kaheh sohāgaṇī bẖaiṇė inī bāṯī saho pā&shy;ī&shy;ai. ||3||
> So speaks the happy soul-bride, O sister; in this way, the Husband Lord is obtained. ||3||
> 
> ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਈਐ ਤਾ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਉਰੁ ਕੈਸੀ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ॥
> आपु गवाईऐ ता सहु पाईऐ अउरु कैसी चतुराई ॥
> Āp gavā&shy;ī&shy;ai ṯā saho pā&shy;ī&shy;ai a&shy;or kaisī cẖaṯurā&shy;ī.
> Give up your selfhood, and so obtain your Husband Lord; what other clever tricks are of any use?
> 
> ਸਹੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਸੋ ਦਿਨੁ ਲੇਖੈ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ ॥
> सहु नदरि करि देखै सो दिनु लेखै कामणि नउ निधि पाई ॥
> Saho naḏar kar ḏėkẖai so ḏin lėkẖai kāmaṇ na&shy;o niḏẖ pā&shy;ī.
> When the Husband Lord looks upon the soul-bride with His Gracious Glance, that day is historic - the bride obtains the nine treasures.
> 
> ਆਪਣੇ ਕੰਤ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਸਾ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾ ਸਭਰਾਈ ॥
> आपणे कंत पिआरी सा सोहागणि नानक सा सभराई ॥
> Āpṇė kanṯ pi&shy;ārī sā sohagaṇ Nānak sā sabẖrā&shy;ī.
> She who is loved by her Husband Lord, is the true soul-bride; O Nanak, she is the queen of all.
> 
> ਐਸੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਸਹਜ ਕੀ ਮਾਤੀ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਭਾਇ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥
> ऐसै रंगि राती सहज की माती अहिनिसि भाइ समाणी ॥
> Aisė rang rāṯī sahj kī māṯī ahinis bẖā&shy;ė samāṇī.
> Thus she is imbued with His Love, intoxicated with delight; day and night, she is absorbed in His Love.
> 
> ਸੁੰਦਰਿ ਸਾਇ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਚਖਣਿ ਕਹੀਐ ਸਾ ਸਿਆਣੀ ॥੪॥੨॥੪॥
> सुंदरि साइ सरूप बिचखणि कहीऐ सा सिआणी ॥४॥२॥४॥
> Sunḏar sā&shy;ė sarūp bicẖkẖaṇ kahī&shy;ai sā si&shy;āṇī. ||4||2||4||
> She is beautiful, glorious and brilliant; she is known as truly wise. ||4||2||4||
> 
> please donot consider the translations as accurate !!


 

Respected Amar ji,
The above post was not read as it crossed mine.However, it is very informative post. You have already highlighted the important lines. I do not understand many lines. The most important of which seems to me is 'fear Of God'. How do we develop it? Kindly do not spin it away. I am seriously asking about it.Have read articles but could not understand. If we accept death, the fear evaporates.Kindly explain in your words without taking recourse to gurmukhi or some extraneous article/post.

Regards.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Waheguru :Gift Of Guru nanak dev ji*


Source: Sikhnet




Meaning of WAHEGURU


----------



## Archived_Member_19

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

sikh ji


as i said,

the english translations are not mine

nor have i highlighted any lines as importtant lines

i posted the shabd for contemplation

if you read gurbani with translations, you will get what "i" or the "translator" thinks, and not what guru ji wanted to share with you.


if you are confused, i think we should not worry.

this is a stage, if Guruji wills, you will understand.

i am not trying to spin it away, Sikhi is an extremely personal interpretation of Guruji's guidelines to be one with the One within.

this is my personal opinion


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*


gauVI mhlw 5 ]
go*u*rr*ee* mehal*aa* 5 ||
_Gauree, Fifth Mehl:_

mohn qyry aUcy mMdr mhl Apwrw ]
m*o*han th*ae*r*ae* *oo*ch*ae* ma(n)dhar mehal ap*aa*r*aa* ||
_O Mohan, your temple is so lofty, and your mansion is unsurpassed._

mohn qyry sohin duAwr jIau sMq Drm swlw ]
m*o*han th*ae*r*ae* s*o*han dh*u**aa*r j*ee*o sa(n)th dhharam s*aa*l*aa* ||
_O Mohan, your gates are so beautiful. They are the worship-houses of the Saints._

Drm swl Apwr dYAwr Twkur sdw kIrqnu gwvhy ]
dhharam s*aa*l ap*aa*r dh*ai**aa*r t(h)*aa*k*u*r sadh*aa* k*ee*rathan g*aa*veh*ae* ||
_In these incomparable worship-houses, they continually sing Kirtan, the Praises of their Lord and Master._

jh swD sMq iekqR hovih qhw quJih iDAwvhy ]
jeh s*aa*dhh sa(n)th e*i*kathr h*o*veh*i* theh*aa* th*u*jheh*i* dhh*i**aa*veh*ae* ||
_Where the Saints and the Holy gather together, there they meditate on you._

kir dieAw mieAw dieAwl suAwmI hohu dIn ik®pwrw ]
kar dhae*i**aa* mae*i**aa* dhae*i**aa*l s*u**aa*m*ee* h*o*h*u* dh*ee*n k*i*rap*aa*r*aa* ||
_Be Kind and Compassionate, O Merciful Lord; be Merciful to the meek._

ibnvMiq nwnk drs ipAwsy imil drsn suKu swrw ]1]
b*i*nava(n)th n*aa*nak dharas p*i**aa*s*ae* m*i*l dharasan s*u*kh s*aa*r*aa* ||1||
_Prays Nanak, I thirst for the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan; receiving Your Darshan, I am totally at peace. ||1||_

mohn qyry bcn AnUp cwl inrwlI ]
m*o*han th*ae*r*ae* bachan an*oo*p ch*aa*l n*i*r*aa*l*ee* ||
_O Mohan, your speech is incomparable; wondrous are your ways._

mohn qUM mwnih eyku jI Avr sB rwlI ]
m*o*han th*oo*(n) m*aa*neh*i* e*ae*k j*ee* avar sabh r*aa*l*ee* ||
_O Mohan, you believe in the One. Everything else is dust to you._

mwnih q eyku AlyKu Twkuru ijnih sB kl DwrIAw ]
m*aa*neh*i* th e*ae*k al*ae*kh t(h)*aa*k*u*r j*i*neh*i* sabh kal dhh*aa*r*ee**aa* ||
_You adore the One Lord, the Unknowable Lord and Master; His Power gives Support to all._

quDu bcin gur kY vis kIAw Awid purKu bnvwrIAw ]
th*u*dhh bachan g*u*r k*ai* vas k*ee**aa* *aa*dh p*u*rakh banav*aa*r*ee**aa* ||
_Through the Guru's Word, you have captured the heart of the Primal Being, the Lord of the World._

qUM Awip cilAw Awip rihAw Awip sB kl DwrIAw ]
th*oo*(n) *aa*p chal*i**aa* *aa*p reh*i**aa* *aa*p sabh kal dhh*aa*r*ee**aa* ||
_You Yourself move, and You Yourself stand still; You Yourself support the whole creation._

ibnvMiq nwnk pYj rwKhu sB syvk srin qumwrIAw ]2]
b*i*nava(n)th n*aa*nak p*ai*j r*aa*khah*u* sabh s*ae*vak saran th*u*m*aa*r*ee**aa* ||2||
_Prays Nanak, please preserve my honor; all Your servants seek the Protection of Your Sanctuary. ||2||_

mohn quDu sqsMgiq iDAwvY drs iDAwnw ]
m*o*han th*u*dhh sathasa(n)gath dhh*i**aa*v*ai* dharas dhh*i**aa*n*aa* ||
_O Mohan, the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, meditates on you; they meditate on the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan._

mohn jmu nyiV n AwvY quDu jpih indwnw ]
m*o*han jam n*ae*rr n *aa*v*ai* th*u*dhh japeh*i* n*i*dh*aa*n*aa* ||
_O Mohan, the Messenger of Death does not even approach those who meditate on You, at the last moment._

jmkwlu iqn kau lgY nwhI jo iek min iDAwvhy ]
jamak*aa*l th*i*n ko lag*ai* n*aa*h*ee* j*o* e*i*k man dhh*i**aa*veh*ae* ||
_The Messenger of Death cannot touch those who meditate on You single-mindedly._

min bcin krim ij quDu ArwDih sy sBy Pl pwvhy ]
man bachan karam j th*u*dhh ar*aa*dhheh*i* s*ae* sabh*ae* fal p*aa*veh*ae* ||
_Those who worship and adore You in thought, word and deed, obtain all fruits and rewards._

ml mUq mUV ij mugD hoqy is dyiK drsu suigAwnw ]
mal m*oo*th m*oo*rr j m*u*gadhh h*o*th*ae* s dh*ae*kh dharas s*u*g*i**aa*n*aa* ||
_Those who are foolish and stupid, filthy with urine and manure, become all-knowing upon gaining the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan._

ibnvMiq nwnk rwju inhclu pUrn purK Bgvwnw ]3]
b*i*nava(n)th n*aa*nak r*aa*j n*i*hachal p*oo*ran p*u*rakh bhagav*aa*n*aa* ||3||
_Prays Nanak, Your Kingdom is Eternal, O Perfect Primal Lord God. ||3||_

mohn qUM suPlu PilAw sxu prvwry ]
m*o*han th*oo*(n) s*u*fal fal*i**aa* san parav*aa*r*ae* ||
_O Mohan, you have blossomed forth with the flower of your family._

mohn puqR mIq BweI kutMb siB qwry ]
m*o*han p*u*thr m*ee*th bh*aa**ee* k*u*tta(n)b sabh th*aa*r*ae* ||
_O Mohan, your children, friends, siblings and relatives have all been saved._

qwirAw jhwnu lihAw AiBmwnu ijnI drsnu pwieAw ]
th*aa*r*i**aa* jeh*aa*n leh*i**aa* abh*i*m*aa*n j*i*n*ee* dharasan p*aa*e*i**aa* ||
_You save those who give up their egotistical pride, upon gaining the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan._

ijnI quDno DMnu kihAw iqn jmu nyiV n AwieAw ]
j*i*n*ee* th*u*dhhan*o* dhha(n)n keh*i**aa* th*i*n jam n*ae*rr n *aa*e*i**aa* ||
_The Messenger of Death does not even approach those who call you 'blessed'._

byAMq gux qyry kQy n jwhI siqgur purK murwry ]
b*ae*a(n)th g*u*n th*ae*r*ae* kathh*ae* n j*aa*h*ee* sath*i*g*u*r p*u*rakh m*u*r*aa*r*ae* ||
_Your Virtues are unlimited - they cannot be described, O True Guru, Primal Being, Destroyer of demons._

ibnvMiq nwnk tyk rwKI ijqu lig qirAw sMswry ]4]2]
b*i*nava(n)th n*aa*nak tt*ae*k r*aa*kh*ee* j*i*th lag thar*i**aa* sa(n)s*aa*r*ae* ||4||2||
_Prays Nanak, Yours is that Anchor, holding onto which the whole world is saved. ||4||2||_

gauVI mhlw 5 ]
go*u*rr*ee* mehal*aa* 5 ||
_Gauree, Fifth Mehl,_

sloku ]
sal*o*k ||
_Shalok:_

piqq AsMK punIq kir punh punh bilhwr ]
path*i*th asa(n)kh p*u*n*ee*th kar p*u*neh p*u*neh bal*i*h*aa*r ||
_Countless sinners have been purified; I am a sacrifice, over and over again, to You._

nwnk rwm nwmu jip pwvko iqn iklibK dwhnhwr ]1]
n*aa*nak r*aa*m n*aa*m jap p*aa*vak*o* th*i*n k*i*lab*i*kh dh*aa*haneh*aa*r ||1||
_O Nanak, meditation on the Lord's Name is the fire which burns away sinful mistakes like straw. ||1||_

CMq ]
shha(n)th ||
_Chhant:_

jip mnw qUM rwm nrwiexu goivMdw hir mwDo ]
jap man*aa* th*oo*(n) r*aa*m nar*aa*e*i*n g*o*v*i*(n)dh*aa* har m*aa*dhh*o* ||
_Meditate, O my mind, on the Lord God, the Lord of the Universe, the Lord, the Master of Wealth._

iDAwie mnw murwir mukMdy ktIAY kwl duK PwDo ]
dhh*i**aa*e man*aa* m*u*r*aa*r m*u*ka(n)dh*ae* katt*ee**ai* k*aa*l dh*u*kh f*aa*dhh*o* ||
_Meditate, O my mind, on the Lord, the Destroyer of ego, the Giver of salvation, who cuts away the noose of agonizing death._

duKhrx dIn srx sRIDr crn kml ArwDIAY ]
dh*u*kheharan dh*ee*n saran sr*ee*dhhar charan kamal ar*aa*dhh*ee**ai* ||
_Meditate lovingly on the Lotus Feet of the Lord, the Destroyer of distress, the Protector of the poor, the Lord of excellence._

jm pMQu ibKVw Agin swgru inmK ismrq swDIAY ]
jam pa(n)thh b*i*kharr*aa* agan s*aa*gar n*i*makh s*i*marath s*aa*dhh*ee**ai* ||
_The treacherous path of death and the terrifying ocean of fire are crossed over by meditating in remembrance on the Lord, even for an instant._

kilmlh dhqw suDu krqw idnsu rYix ArwDo ]
kal*i*maleh dhehath*aa* s*u*dhh karath*aa* dh*i*nas r*ai*n ar*aa*dhh*o* ||
_Meditate day and night on the Lord, the Destroyer of desire, the Purifier of pollution._

ibnvMiq nwnk krhu ikrpw gopwl goibMd mwDo ]1]
b*i*nava(n)th n*aa*nak karah*u* k*i*rap*aa* g*o*p*aa*l g*o*b*i*(n)dh m*aa*dhh*o* ||1||
_Prays Nanak, please be Merciful to me, O Cherisher of the world, Lord of the Universe, Lord of wealth. ||1||_

ismir mnw dwmodru duKhru BY BMjnu hir rwieAw ]
s*i*mar man*aa* dh*aa*m*o*dhar dh*u*khehar bh*ai* bha(n)jan har r*aa*e*i**aa* ||
_O my mind, remember the Lord in meditation; He is the Destroyer of pain, the Eradicator of fear, the Sovereign Lord King._

sRIrMgo dieAwl mnohru Bgiq vClu ibrdwieAw ]
sr*ee*ra(n)g*o* dhae*i**aa*l man*o*har bhagath vashhal b*i*radh*aa*e*i**aa* ||
_He is the Greatest Lover, the Merciful Master, the Enticer of the mind, the Support of His devotees - this is His very nature._
Jarnail Singh


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## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sant Anoop Singh Ji - Mohan Ghar Avo Karo Jodariya
Bhai Avtar Singh - Mohan Ghar Aavoh Karo Jodariaa
Gyani Dyal Singh - Mohan Ghar Aavoh Karo Jodadiya
Bhai Nirmal Singh - Mohan Ghar Aavo

For Text : mohan ghar aavhu kara-o jodree-aa


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

The Sikhism Home Page: Sikh Religious Philosophy


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Guru Nanak at School - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*ਜਪੁਜੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ*
Japji Sahib
Japji Sahib is ‘Dhur’ ki Bani.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Mool Mantra Of Guru Nanak dev ji*








*
*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

_Gurbani_ - *Bani Guru Guru Hai Bani*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Dukh Sukh*


Dukh Sukh - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Bhai Gurdas ji's Var*


please refer--
*Bhai Gurdas Ji Vars p.1*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 1 *

suxI pukwr dwqwr pRB gur nwnk jg mwihM pTwXw]
crn Doie rihrws kr crnwimRq is`KW pIlwXw]
pwrbRhm pUrn bRhm kiljug AMdr iek idKwXw]
cwrY pYr DrMm dy cwr vrn iek vrn krwXw]
rwxw rMk brwbrI pYrIN pvxw jg vrqwXw]
aultw Kyl iprMm dw pYrW aupr sIs invwXw]
kiljug bwby qwirAw s`qnwm pVH mMqR suxwXw]
kil qwrx gur nwnk AwXw ]òó]

s*u*n*ee* p*u*k*aa*r dh*aa*th*aa*r prabh g*u*r n*aa*nak jag m*aa*h*i*(n) pat(h)*aa*y*aa*||
charan dhh*o*e reh*i*r*aa*s kar charan*aa*mr*i*th skh*i**aa(n)* p*ee*l*aa*y*aa*||
p*aa*rabreham p*oo*ran breham kal*i*j*u*g a(n)dhar e*i*k dh*i*kh*aa*y*aa*||
ch*aa*r*ai* p*ai*r dhhara(n)m dh*ae* ch*aa*r varan e*i*k varan kar*aa*y*aa*||
r*aa*n*aa* ra(n)k bar*aa*bar*ee* p*ai*r*ee*(n) pavan*aa* jag varath*aa*y*aa*||
o*u*latt*aa* kh*ae*l p*i*ra(n)m dh*aa* p*ai*r*aa(n)* o*u*par s*ee*s n*i*v*aa*y*aa*||
kal*i*j*u*g b*aa*b*ae* th*aa*r*i**aa* saathan*aa*m parrh ma(n)thr s*u*n*aa*y*aa*||
kal th*aa*ran g*u*r n*aa*nak *aa*y*aa* ||aa||

_The benefactor Lord listened to the cries (of humanity) and sent Guru Nanak to this world.
He washed His feet, eulogised God and got his Disciples drink the ambrosia of his feet.
He preached in this darkage (kaliyug) that, saragun (Brahm) and nirgun (Parbrahm) are the same and identical.
Dharma was now established on its four feet and all the four castes (through fraternal feeling) were converted into one caste (of humanity).
Equating the poor with the prince, he spread the etiquette of humbly touching the feet.
Inverse is the game of the beloved; he got the egotist high heads bowed to feet.
Baba Nanak rescued this dark age (kaliyug) and recited ‘satinam’ mantr for one and all.
Guru Nanak came to redeem the kaliyug._


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Rag Tilang, pg. 722-723)*

As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo. Bringing the marriage party of sin, Babar has invaded from Kaabul, demanding our land as his wedding gift, O Lalo. Modesty and righteousness both have vanished, and falsehood struts around like a leader, O Lalo. The Qazis and the Brahmins have lost their roles, and Satan now conducts the marriage rites, O Lalo. The Muslim women read the Koran, and in their misery, they call upon God, O Lalo. The Hindu women of high social status, and others of lowly status as well, are put into the same category, O Lalo. The wedding songs of murder are sung, O Nanak, and blood is sprinkled instead of saffron, O Lalo. || 1 || Nanak sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord and Master in the city of corpses, and voices this account. The One who created, and attached the mortals to pleasures, sits alone, and watches this. The Lord and Master is True, and True is His justice. He issues His Commands according to His judgement. The body-fabric will be torn apart into shreds, and then India will remember these words. Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up. Nanak speaks the Word of Truth; he proclaims the Truth at this, the right time.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

SUJJAN THUG


pl. follow the link. 

A Gateway to Sikhism | Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji*-*A Gateway to Sikhism​


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

GURU AT GAYA
source:site as above​


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*KAUDA RAKHSHASH*
​[site as above]


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*RETURN FROM SANGLADEEP:* 

A Gateway to Sikhism | Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji*-*A Gateway to Sikhism​


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

THIRD UDASI:

*A Gateway to Sikhism | Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji*-*A Gateway to Sikhism*​


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*_Deleted on account Of source could not be traced-
*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Lehna, you were blessed with the sacred food because you could share it with others. ]


pl. follow the link...[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT] 


[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Sikhism Home Page: Guru Nanak Dev[/FONT]


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru- Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj and japji Sahib explanation To Sidhas*

*To be continued:*
[it has been taken from internet,one can easily google out.My contribution is Nil]


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*To be continued*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

To be contd.......on the receipt


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## kaur-1

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sikh80 said:


> _ Ongkar aad kathni anad, Khal Khand Khyal Gurbar Akaal ||
> 
> Ongkar Bhrama Utpat ||_
> 
> Gyani talks about in the katha- bhrama(creator) came from ongkar resosance.
> 
> *Ongkar Kiya Jin Chit ||
> 
> 
> Then bhrama did bhagti on ongkar for thousands of years. After that Nirgun asked him, what do you want? Bhram asked god to give him powers to create the world. *
> 
> _Ongkar Saiyel Jug Paie ||
> 
> Ongkar Vaid Nirvaie ||_
> 
> Guru Nanak Dev Ji said, with ongkar - Nirgun transcedents it's attributes into sargun.



May I ask who is brama/Bhram here ?


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



kaur-1 said:


> May I ask who is brama/Bhram here ?


 
I think both the words should read as 'Brahma' only. Hope it clarifies.


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## kaur-1

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

quote "After that Nirgun asked him, what do you want? Bhram asked god to give him powers to create the world."

Doesnt the above statement sounds like a 3rd party is asking God whether he can create  xyz etc.

God created all when he so desired. I dont think God needed or needs anyones permission to do anything.

or maybe I have misunderstood. Sounds like Guru ji is advising the pandit on God being the creator not a 3rd party.
Could a learned member help explain the meaning (vichaar) of this shabad on Ang 929 please.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

I think you are rigt to the extent that GOd wills and things do happen. However, how it happens is the Kathakaar's version. This is the way the Kathakaar has presented to simplify the concept of Brahma.However, I am cent percent in agreement with you and your  observations. Thanks for bringing this to the notice.


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## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

He is beyond everything, 
beyond Brahma, 
the primal principle; 
Nanak has met with such a Guru. 
The Master of Truth is eternally the same. 
He neither comes nor goes. 
He is the imperishable Life Principle that pervades everywhere.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sikh80 said:


> I think you are right to the extent that GOd wills and things do happen. However, how it happens is the Kathakaar's version. This is the way the Kathakaar has presented to simplify the concept of Brahma.However, I am cent percent in agreement with you and your  observations. Thanks for bringing this to the notice.


My screen does not have an edit button plus it logs out everytime I answer.May be there is some software proble.I shall take up the answer tomorrow.


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## kaur-1

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

rwmklI mhlw 1 dKxI EAMkwru
      r*aa*makal*ee* mehal*aa* 1 dhakhan*ee* oua(n)k*aa*r*u*
 _Raamkalee, First Mehla, Dakhanee, Ongkaar:_
 
<> siqgur pRswid ]
      ik oa(n)kaar sath*i*g*u*r pras*aa*dh ||
 _One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:_
 
EAMkwir bRhmw auqpiq ]
      oua(n)k*aa*r breham*aa* o*u*thapath ||
 _From Ongkaar, the One Universal Creator God, Brahma was created._
 
EAMkwru kIAw ijin iciq ]
      oua(n)k*aa*r k*ee**aa* j*i*n ch*i*th ||
 _He kept Ongkaar in his consciousness._
 
EAMkwir sYl jug Bey ]
      oua(n)k*aa*r s*ai*l j*u*g bhe*ae* ||
 _From Ongkaar, the mountains and the ages were created._
 
EAMkwir byd inrmey ]
      oua(n)k*aa*r b*ae*dh n*i*rame*ae* ||
 _Ongkaar created the Vedas._
 
EAMkwir sbid auDry ]
      oua(n)k*aa*r sabadh o*u*dhhar*ae* ||
 _Ongkaar saves the world through the Shabad._
 
EAMkwir gurmuiK qry ]
      oua(n)k*aa*r g*u*ram*u*kh thar*ae* ||
 _Ongkaar saves the Gurmukhs._
 
Enm AKr suxhu bIcwru ]
      ounam akhar s*u*nah*u* b*ee*ch*aa*r ||
 _Listen to the Message of the Universal, Imperishable Creator Lord._
 
Enm AKru iqRBvx swru ]1]
      ounam akhar thr*i*bhavan s*aa*r ||1||
 _The Universal, Imperishable Creator Lord is the essence of the three worlds. ||1||_
 
suix pwfy ikAw ilKhu jMjwlw ]
      s*u*n p*aa*dd*ae* k*i**aa* l*i*khah*u* ja(n)j*aa*l*aa* ||
 _Listen, O Pandit, O religious scholar, why are you writing about worldly debates?_
 
ilKu rwm nwm gurmuiK gopwlw ]1] rhwau ]
      l*i*kh r*aa*m n*aa*m g*u*ram*u*kh g*o*p*aa*l*aa* ||1|| reh*aa*o ||
 _As Gurmukh, write only the Name of the Lord, the Lord of the World. ||1||Pause||

SikhiToTheMAX - Enabling Gurmat Knowledge


_


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

From Ongkaar, the One Universal Creator God, Brahma was created.He kept Ongkaar in his consciousness.[ as per your post; the switches on my screen are not working noe Gurmukhi font is accepted.] I am ,therefore, constarined to work with bare minimum tools.All that you have stated should be correct so far as the edicts of SGGS ji are concerned.But here in this katha , the reference is made to the Dasam Granth sahib. I have little knowledge in this regard. [ unless you are certain that it may not be contained in the Dasam Granth , I shall presume it to be correct.]You May like to check.I am not going to post for another week or so and May be my side of the screen functions properly.Else I am not posting as it is.Thanks


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

I am quoting from Dasam Granth sahib. I have not gone through The Dasam Granth. But the following line suggests the creation by Brahma. Kindly check as well.ਮਾਨਹੁ ਫੇਰ ਰਚੇ ਬਿਧਿ ਲੋਕ ਧਰਾ ਖਟ ਆਠ ਅਕਾਸ ਬਨਾਏ ॥੧੪੭॥  Maanoh pher rache bidh(i) lok dharaa khat aath akaas banaae||147|| It seemed that Brahma hath created the fourteen worlds agin with six nether-words and eight skies (because the sphere of dust hath become the eighth sky).147.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Contd .from permanent link post 273*
*To be continued*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

They consider mortal being jev who is made of 24 tat vadi(elements) - 5 gyan indrai's/5 senses, 5 karam indrai, 5 asthol (tat)elements, 5 sukhsaum(subtle) elements, man(mind), tridha , ahankar, mani tat and pardan is equal to 24 elements which human is made of. 25th element is jev atma(soul). They consider jev atma to be akaal purkh which is not correct. Jev atma is not paratma(supreme soul) because of antish karan(acculmations of thoughts, desires, karmas). 

Gyani further stressed, when jiv atma has to face death(kaal) and be in fear. Jiv atma(individualstic soul) screams in pain. Then how jev atma this mortal being can be purkh. A person who is feared cannot be purkh(paratma) because he is bhau(fear) not Nirbhau. 

Guru ji said, that's why i had to add Nirbhau after karta purkh because only god is free from fear. 

Sidhas were satisfied, and further asked why there was a need of addition of nirvair- Guru ji replied by giving example of harnakash. When he came in this world. He started claiming - Jalaie Harnakash, Thalie Harnakash (I am god), that i m not fear from anyone. People thought of him as a God however he didn't have all god's(sargun) attributes in him only he claimed he was nirbhau, Nirvair and that was not enough. Guru ji then gave another example of ravan. Even he claimed to be fearless(Nirbhau) by getting occult powers. These people on top of that, they start being rebellion against god's creation like for example- if someone didn't them worship they would be their enemy. Now if they were enemy, how could they have nirvair(without hate) attribute in them which is opposite to Vair(dushmani). 

Sidhas were satisfied with Guru ji explanation but asked mantar could have ended until Nirvair. Why there was need for "akaal" ?? 

 Guru ji said, listen saints (sant/mahatamas) can have nirbhau/nirvair attributes because of high enlighten visions towards creation.


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## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Wow!!!

Sikh80 Ji,

Tusi tarN kamaal karti. (You're doing good sewa, puttar.)


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Siri guru gobind singh ji mentions in dasam guru granth: 

*Kalan Ko Kaal, Maha Kalan Ko Kaal hai || *


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

-dtd-


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

-dltd-


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

-dltd_


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*


*Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev *

 *To be continued*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Tape 10 out of 81:*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

-Dltd-


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*To be contd:*


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## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Waheguru, waheguru, waheguru, waheguru, waheguru, waheguru.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Satnaam sri waheguru


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*To be contd..*


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sikh 80 Ji,

Can you please give the name of the speaker whose tapes are these you are typing in. 
I read this one is 10 of the 81 going on.

Who is the Original Speaker, and what is the name of these Tapes, I missed where you mentioned it before, or just direct me to the Post # where you did.

Sorry for the pains.

Thanks.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*To be contd.*


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*


*to be contd.*


----------



## pk70

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sikh80 said:


> gur kw sbdu n mytY koie ] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
> No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.
> gurunwnku nwnku hir soie ]4]7]9] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
> *Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.* ||4||7||9||
> 
> These are the Vaaks from Guru Arjan dev ji maharaj. I am not able to proceed further as the meaning assigned to the 'tuk' does not fit in well with the conceptual framework Of sikhi that I had the chance to build on this forum. Frankly speaking., I have not yet had one full reading of the Granth sahib ji whom I hold in high esteem.
> 
> It was in a post of SPN that I was reading that unlike other religions sikhism does not preach that their Gurus are God. But here the things do not appear to me in sync. with the above.
> 
> 
> Is Guru Nanak dev ji stated to be Creator?
> or
> The translation is not correct
> or
> My appreciation Of the translation is faulty.
> 
> I would also be grateful if someone can tell as to in which year the line was authored or it was during the compilation of the Granth sahib. Did the earlier 3 gurus not observe this.?
> 
> kindly correct me.


 
Sikh80 ji

Actually I am glad to read your personal opinion on this Guru waak. Some people are just" lakeer ke faqir" and fail in differentiation between compliment and realty. Satguru ji tried to clear the minds of followers about this complimentin Rag Asa
] Awsw mhlw 5 ] ijn@w n ivsrY nwmu sy iknyihAw ] Bydu n jwxhu mUil 
 sWeI jyihAw ]1] mnu qnu hoie inhwlu qum@ sMig ByitAw ] suKu pwieAw jn prswid duKu sB myitAw ]1] rhwau ]
Actually Satguru ji is complimenting the persons who are totally involved with Waheguru. They still are His creation and cannot be literally HIM. As it was absolutelly made clear in Moolmantra that He is beyond birth and death, why still some people being strayed, guide others to think against Satguru Sahiban. How they can ignore the following and disrespect Sahib ji

BYrau mhlw 5 Gru 1          <> siqgur pRswid ] 
 sglI QIiq pwis fwir rwKI ] Astm QIiq goivMd jnmw sI ]1] Brim BUly nr krq 
 kcrwiex ] jnm mrx qy rhq nwrwiex ]1] rhwau ] kir pMjIru KvwieE cor ] Ehu jnim  n mrY ry swkq For ]2] sgl prwD dyih loronI ] so muKu jlau ijqu khih Twkuru jonI ]3] 
 jnim n mrY n AwvY n jwie ] nwnk kw pRBu rihE smwie 
 ( means people celebrate a day by calling  it is HIS birthday on certain day! It is reference to janamashtmi) .It is a sheer stupidity, He is beyond death and birth. Actually they have just making an excuse to get something. Satguru also curses who says Waheguru takes birth, He permeates in all His nature.=essence)
 How dare they disobey and disrespect Waheguru and Guru ji?
Fifth Sroop also in Gond Rag shows extreme respect and love for Satguru Nanak who actually showed the right path to realize The Absolute
goNf 
 mhlw 5 ] gur kI mUriq mn mih iDAwnu ] gur kY sbid mMqRü mnu mwn ] gur ky crn irdY lY 
 Dwrau ] guru pwrbRhmu sdw nmskwrau ]1] mq ko Brim BulY sMswir ] gur ibnu koie n auqris 
 pwir ]1] rhwau ] BUly kau guir mwrig pwieAw ] Avr iqAwig hir BgqI lwieAw ] jnm 
 mrn kI qRws imtweI ] gur pUry kI byAMq vfweI ]2] gur pRswid aUrD kml ibgws ] AMDkwr 
 mih BieAw pRgws ] ijin kIAw so gur qy jwinAw ] gur ikrpw qy mugD mnu mwinAw ]3]  

  ( means I keep  Guru- sikhya and his vision(who is like Almighty) in my mind,. I love to serve him, people should not have any doubt that any one without Guru's help have libration. Guru has lead  me to worship only Waheguru, with his blessings my spiritual hunger is gone and have over come fear of death. (Note it down, Satguru also keeps giving explanation why Guru must be revered high). Having Guru my guiding light, my illusions are gone, who created  us is known through Guru and my stupidiy vanishes. =essence) 
Among Sikhs, there is also confusion to differentiate about use of word GURU, for satguru and for the Almighty in different contexts. A complete article needs to be written, I shall try. 
Sikh 80, thanks for understanding, I am learning and improving computer skills for this , specially copying and pasting.The article I mentioned is on, have a look. Thanks.

Har Bisrat Sada Khuari -M-5
PK70


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Respected Pk70 ji,

Thanks for all the clarifications that have been very kindly provided by you. 

The responses to the query were also diagnally opposite. But we all have our ways of interpretaion of things. 

Thanks once again for clarifying things _suo moto._Yes, it is true that one should learn the tricks of computer that helps in copy and pasting.



With Regards.
_
P.S_.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Pk70 ji,

Your response above gives rise to another doubt that ,I request, should be clarified by your good self.

1.Is the Bhatt's Eulogisation part of Bani?

2. Is the Bani Of Bhagats [e.g. kabeer, Namdev ji etc] be treated at par with the Bani of Guru Sahibs.?

The question is posed as the Bani of Bhagats should have been authored prior to Sikh Gurus and hence the bani of Bhagats should not qualify for 'Dhur ki bani' and hence 'Bani Nirankaar hey'.

Kindly clarify.
Thanks in anticipation.


----------



## pk70

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sikh80 said:


> Pk70 ji,
> 
> Your response above gives rise to another doubt that ,I request, should be clarified by your good self.
> 
> 1.Is the Bhatt's Eulogisation part of Bani?
> 
> 2. Is the Bani Of Bhagats [e.g. kabeer, Namdev ji etc] be treated at par with the Bani of Guru Sahibs.?
> 
> The question is posed as the Bani of Bhagats should have been authored prior to Sikh Gurus and hence the bani of Bhagats should not qualify for 'Dhur ki bani' and hence 'Bani Nirankaar hey'.
> 
> Kindly clarify.
> Thanks in anticipation.


 
Sikh 80 Ji
Thanks for respectful remarks.

As per search done so far, Bhatta's Bani is accepted by 5th Sroop as bani because, I think, bhatt's sawaeeyes are written in reverence about Guru and his sroops. Doubtless, Mehla word shows oneness of Satguru Nanak who is revered through all sroops. Other sroops abandon their separated entity therefore praising words are for Satguru who showed people right path to be worthy of Almighty. Besides, in writing, people are made aware not to look beyond Satguru Nanak even after reading bhatt's bani.  All words are symbolic, taking literal meaning can not be a work any intellectual.  Since bhatt's bani is in Guru Granth Sahib ji, it must be revered as Gurbani; I strongly feel that Bani of Bhagatan ji should also be considered Gurbani as well, for we are instructed by 10th Nanak that "Granth ji should be revered as Guru in totality". We bow before GGS Ji in that reverence. Since we bow before GGS ji, should we consider Ragmala a bani? No, because so far research is done, it is proven that as a lot of kachi bani was entered without bonafide acceptance of any Satguru and ragmala was one of them; people who support ragmala as bani have no reasonable research done. Since scholars changed sides just becuase of fear or personal gains it does not mean anything that shows disrespect towards Satguru and is not allighned with Gurmat must be call gurbani. We sikhs when start arguements, most of the time, we just take a stand in stead of being open. Babu Teja Singh went to the extreme to accept bani as gurbani only authored by Guru Sahiban. He was also dead wrong because whatever was accepted by compliling authority( 5 th Nanak), how it can be questioned? Same kind of imaginative idea was given by late GB singh who went too far saying 5th Nanak edited Satguru's gurbani and chose to leave out some of it just fearing retaliation from mugal rulers.He never opened his mind to see more shabad of that kind already in GGS ji. I believe, except ragmala, all we read in Guru Granth Sahib is honourable Gurbani, nothing is in there except ragmala which is against Gurmatt. If some say so, they interpret it out of context just as some people while doing kirtan and interpretation of gurbani start quoting Urdu poetry and stories from Hindu mythology. Sometime I wonder Sikh80 ji that why dont they just try to be Sikhs as per gurbani authored by Satguru Sahibaan!
( Ref  Guru Granth Aahib Parachin beeran GB Singh, Mundawani GG Singh,DG Kritav Dr Jaggi )
Har bisrat sda khuari

pk70


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## Khojat

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sikh80 said:


> gur kw sbdu n mytY koie ] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
> No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.
> gurunwnku nwnku hir soie ]4]7]9] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
> *Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.* ||4||7||9||
> 
> These are the Vaaks from Guru Arjan dev ji maharaj. I am not able to proceed further as the meaning assigned to the 'tuk' does not fit in well with the conceptual framework Of sikhi that I had the chance to build on this forum. Frankly speaking., I have not yet had one full reading of the Granth sahib ji whom I hold in high esteem.
> 
> It was in a post of SPN that I was reading that unlike other religions sikhism does not preach that their Gurus are God. But here the things do not appear to me in sync. with the above.
> 
> 
> Is Guru Nanak dev ji stated to be Creator?
> or
> The translation is not correct
> or
> My appreciation Of the translation is faulty.
> 
> I would also be grateful if someone can tell as to in which year the line was authored or it was during the compilation of the Granth sahib. Did the earlier 3 gurus not observe this.?
> 
> kindly correct me.


 

Dear GurSikh,

The Question you have posed is one which has harried other Faiths. The most popular being Christianity and the Divinity of Jesus. Was he God or His Prophet? 

For Skihs the same question arises as to the Divinity of Sat Guru Nanak. Guru Ji himself never acknowledged his own Divinity. In fact, he humbled himself before God and the Saints by saying  that he was the servant of God's servants. The Gurus that came after however, acknowledged, the Divinity of Sat Guru Nanak. There are passages where he has been referred to as the Creator. In others he has been described as "The Formless One". 

This concept is true but you must understand the context in which it is used. It is far from my complete understanding but from my readings of the Sri Guru Grant Sahib (SGGS) and other writings, I have, with God's grace attained some limited understanding of this concept. I will try to impart this to you and all those out there who may chance upon this reply.

In essence this is what the Holy Bani states;

In the Beginning, God was unmanifest and remained in a contemplative state for 26 ages. When The Creator finally gave expression to Himself, he did so initially through two avenues, the Holy Word (Bani, Shabad) and the Sat Guru. So we have God (The Guru), The Holy Word (Bani, Shabad) and the Sat Guru. Both these two manifestations of God are blended in His Essence. Both are from Him and are a part of Him. Both are inseparable from Him. 
Remember, The Guru (God) is the Bani and the Bani is The Guru (God). 

This all sounds very familiar if you know something about Christian doctrine. It is the Doctrine of the Trinity. This concept is given clear Expression in the SGGS (strange place for a Christian to find clarification on this issue I'm sure).

The SGGS goes on to explain that though The Sat Guru has emerged from God's Essence, the Guru (God) and the Sat Guru are two seperate entities. At this point I would like to make an important clarification. At this point we are discussing the existance of the Sat Guru as a spiritual being. A Divine Being of Light. Not a Being in bodily form. The Sat Guru at this point is a Spirit created by God. This is an important concept to understand as it underlies the universality of the Skih Religion and its Holy Scriptures. It also opens the doorway to understanding this crucial concept of the Guru, The Bani and the Sat Guru and how this very concept applies to other Faiths.

In various passages of the SGGS, the Sat Guru is viewed as having the power to Create and Destroy. Of taking Life and Restoring it. Of having absolute knowledge of all the Worlds. Of having the Power to absolve Sins and who Himself is free from Sin. Who has such power save God Himself? Yet these Powers have been bestowed upon the Sat Guru. 

Remember, The Guru (God) is the Bani and the Bani is the Guru (God). When Sat Guru Nanak was called to God's presence, God gave him a Cup filled with the Nectar of His Name (His Word, His Bani) and he was told to drink it. He obeyed His Maters's command and was then imbued with God's Word (Bani). 

So the eqaution changes. If The Guru (God) is the Bani and the Bani (The Word) is The Guru (God), then it follows that if the Bani (The Word) and the Sat Guru become one, so do God and the Sat Guru become One. They are the same and exist in one another.

God then commanded Sat Guru Nanak to go into to the world and preach His Name. 

In the body of the Sat Guru, God has infused his Light and His Spirit. On Earth, in the Heavens and in all of Creation, there is no being like him. He, the Sat Guru is therefore the closest that any being has come, to seeing God. For all intents and purposes anyone who has seen or heard Sat Guru Nanak has seen and heard God Himself. He is therefore rightly described as The Formless One, The Creator.

To digress a little, it is interesting to note that in the Christian Scriptures, a similar verse appears which I paraphrase now; In the Begining was the Word, The Word was God. The Word became Flesh and walked amongst Men.

The verse is starkingly similar to the one in the SGGS about the Guru and the Bani (The Word). However, the Christian fathers of past, the theologians and the general population of Christians mistakenly interpret this verse to mean that God took the form of a human being and was born into this world.

Sikhism clearly rejects this theory as God does not take birth. Nor does he die to be born again.

The SGGS also tells us the the Sat Guru has been coming into the world in every age since the beginning to guide us back to God. Our religion claims no exclusivity to God or to any religious teaching, etc. We do not claim that ours is the only faith that can lead you to God. However I can make one claim. The Skih scriptures containe the Essence of God and that of all religions since the beginning of time. Those who read and understand it wil come to understand their own faiths even better. The Gurbani is the mirror reflecting all faiths under God's House.

I apologies for the long reply. I pray that God and my Sat Guru wil forgive me for any error or digressions in my interpretation of the Gurbani. Remember dear Gur Sikh, understand the Essence and you will conquer all.

Rgds


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Dear friend,
First of all kindly accept my thanks for writing an instructive post.

I have gone through it for over more than 10 times. 

For the time being, I do respect your view-point. I shall revert back after clearing my concepts. I do lack full appreciation of Gurbani. 

Further, I have to presume that all that you have stated should be as per SGGS ji.

However, as a help I shall request you to kindly opine on the following:

1.If Lord is Nanak and Bani is Nirankaar. It would tantamount to God singing HIS praises and God asking us to meditate upon God.
Can it be so.? 

2.Was Mool Mantra and Jap ji sahib authored by Guru ji in HIS own praise? 

3.The entire Granth sahib is fullof  the praise of the Almighty i.e Almighty praising the Almighty.



I think these would be the doubts of many especially when Guru ji has very clearly stated that His Guru was the creator and he got the blessings of naam from the Creator.

For Kind  perusal and reply.

Regards


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*

to be contd.*


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

​ 
ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੧ ​ 
bhairo mehalaa 5 ghar 1
Bhairao, Fifth Mehl, First House:​ 
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ 
ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:​ 
ਸਗਲੀ ਥੀਤਿ ਪਾਸਿ ਡਾਰਿ ਰਾਖੀ ॥ਅਸਟਮ ਥੀਤਿ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਜਨਮਾ ਸੀ ॥੧॥ 
sagalee thheeth paas ddaar raakhee || asattam thheeth govindh janamaa see ||1||
Setting aside all other days, it is said that the Lord was born on the eighth lunar day. ||1||​ 
ਭਰਮਿ ਭੂਲੇ ਨਰ ਕਰਤ ਕਚਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
bharam bhoolae nar karath kacharaaein ||
Deluded and confused by doubt, the mortal practices falsehood.​ 
ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਤੇ ਰਹਤ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
janam maran thae rehath naaraaein ||1|| rehaao ||
The Lord is beyond birth and death. ||1||Pause||​ 
ਕਰਿ ਪੰਜੀਰੁ ਖਵਾਇਓ ਚੋਰ ॥ 
kar panjeer khavaaeiou chor ||
You prepare sweet treats and feed them to your stone god.​ 
ਓਹੁ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਰੇ ਸਾਕਤ ਢੋਰ ॥੨॥ 
ouhu janam n marai rae saakath dtor ||2||
God is not born, and He does not die, you foolish, faithless cynic! ||2||​ 
ਸਗਲ ਪਰਾਧ ਦੇਹਿ ਲੋਰੋਨੀ ॥ 
sagal paraadhh dhaehi loronee ||
You sing lullabyes to your stone god - this is the source of all your mistakes.​ 
ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥ 
so mukh jalo jith kehehi thaakur jonee ||3||
Let that mouth be burnt, which says that our Lord and Master is subject to birth. ||3||​ 
ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
janam n marai n aavai n jaae ||
He is not born, and He does not die; He does not come and go in reincarnation.​ 
ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥ 
 naanak kaa prabh rehiou samaae ||4||1||
 The God of Nanak is pervading and permeating everywhere. ||4||1||


​


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Some opinions from Sikhnet members*
In the Mool Mantra Guru Nanak Dev ji says: Akal murat ajooni.... which means God never dies and God is beyond births and deaths.

In Jaap  Sahib Guru Gobind Singh ji The Tenth Nanak says: Namastang ajae...which means I salute God who cannot be born.

Tenth Nanak has also said: Mein hoo Param Purakh ko daasa, dekhan aayo jagat tamasha.

In fact Guru Gobind Singh has often referred himself as "dass" while addressing God.

And the Tenth Nanak has explicitly said that anyone who considers him (Tenth Nanak) as God will go to hell.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Ang (1020-10)
ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

saachaa sach so-ee avar na ko-ee.
The True Lord is True; there is no other at all.

jin sirjee tin hee fun go-ee.
He who created, shall in the end destroy.

ji-o bhaavai ti-o raakho rahnaa tum si-o ki-aa mukraa-ee hay. ||1||
As it pleases You, so You keep me, and so I remain; what excuse could I offer to You? ||1||

aap upaa-ay aap khapaa-ay.
 You Yourself create, and You Yourself destroy.

aapay sir sir DhanDhai laa-ay.
You yourself link each and every person to their tasks.

aapay veechaaree gunkaaree aapay maarag laa-ee hay. ||2||
You contemplate Yourself, You Yourself make us worthy; You Yourself place us on the Path. ||2||

aapay daanaa aapay beenaa.
You Yourself are all-wise, You Yourself are all-knowing.

aapay aap upaa-ay pateenaa.
 You Yourself created the Universe, and You are pleased.
 
aapay pa-un paanee baisantar aapay mayl milaa-ee hay. ||3||
You Yourself are the air, water and fire; You Yourself unite in Union. ||3||

aapay sas sooraa pooro pooraa.
You Yourself are the moon, the sun, the most perfect of the perfect.

aapay gi-aan Dhi-aan gur sooraa.
You Yourself are spiritual wisdom, meditation, and the Guru, the Warrior Hero.

kaal jaal jam johi na saakai saachay si-o liv laa-ee hay. ||4||
The Messenger of Death, and his noose of death, cannot touch one, who is lovingly focused on You, O True Lord. ||4||

aapay purakh aapay hee naaree.
You Yourself are the male, and You Yourself are the female.

aapay paasaa aapay saaree.
You Yourself are the chess-board, and You Yourself are the chessman.

aapay pirh baaDhee jag khaylai aapay keemat paa-ee hay. ||5||
You Yourself staged the drama in the arena of the world, and You Yourself evaluate the players. ||5||

aapay bhavar ful fal tarvar.
You Yourself are the bumble bee, the flower, the fruit and the tree.

aapay jal thal saagar sarvar.
You Yourself are the water, the desert, the ocean and the pool.
aapay machh kachh karneekar tayraa roop na lakh-naa jaa-ee hay. ||6||
You Yourself are the great fish, the tortoise, the Cause of causes; Your form cannot be known. ||6||

dinas aapay hee rainee.
You Yourself are the day, and You Yourself are the night.

aap pateejai gur kee bainee.
You Yourself are pleased by the Word of the Guru's Bani.

aad jugaad anaahad an-din ghat ghat sabad rajaa-ee hay. ||7||
From the very beginning, and throughout the ages, the unstruck sound current resounds, night and day; in each and every heart, the Word of the Shabad, echoes Your Will. ||7||

aapay ratan anoop amolo.
You Yourself are the jewel, incomparably beautiful and priceless.

aapay parkhay pooraa tolo.
You Yourself are the Assessor, the Perfect Weigher.

aapay kis hee kas bakhsay aapay day lai bhaa-ee hay. ||8||
You Yourself test and forgive. You Yourself give and take, O Siblings of Destiny. ||8||

aapay Dhanakh aapay sarbaanaa.
He Himself is the bow, and He Himself is the archer.

aapay sugharh saroop si-aanaa.
He Himself is all-wise, beautiful and all-knowing.

kahtaa baktaa suntaa so-ee aapay banat banaa-ee hay. ||9||
He is the speaker, the orator and the listener. He Himself made what is made. ||9||

pa-un guroo paanee pit jaataa.
Air is the Guru, and water is known to be the father.

udar sanjogee Dhartee maataa.
The womb of the great mother earth gives birth to all.

rain dinas du-ay daa-ee daa-i-aa jag khaylai khaylaa-ee hay. ||10||
Night and day are the two nurses, male and female; the world plays in this play. ||10||

aapay machhulee aapay jaalaa.
You Yourself are the fish, and You Yourself are the net.
aapay ga-oo aapay rakhvaalaa.
You Yourself are the cows, and You yourself are their keeper.

sarab jee-aa jag jot tumaaree jaisee parabh furmaa-ee hay. ||11||
Your Light fills all the beings of the world; they walk according to Your Command, O God. ||11||

aapay jogee aapay bhogee.
You Yourself are the Yogi, and You Yourself are the enjoyer.

aapay rasee-aa param sanjogee.
You Yourself are the reveller; You form the supreme Union.

aapay vaybaanee nirankaaree nirbha-o taarhee laa-ee hay. ||12||
You Yourself are speechless, formless and fearless, absorbed in the primal ecstasy of deep meditation. ||12||

khaanee banee tujheh samaanee.
The sources of creation and speech are contained within You, Lord.

jo deesai sabh aavan jaanee.
All that is seen, is coming and going.

say-ee saah sachay vaapaaree satgur boojh bujhaa-ee hay. ||13||
They are the true bankers and traders, whom the True Guru has inspired to understand. ||13||

sabad bujhaa-ay satgur pooraa.
The Word of the Shabad is understood through the Perfect True Guru.

sarab kalaa saachay bharpooraa.
The True Lord is overflowing with all powers.

afri-o vayparvaahu sadaa too naa tis til na tamaa-ee hay. ||14||
You are beyond our grasp, and forever independent. You do not have even an iota of greed. ||14||

kaal bikaal bha-ay dayvaanay.
Birth and death are meaningless, for those

sabad sahj ras antar maanay.
who enjoy the sublime celestial essence of the Shabad within their minds.

aapay mukat taripat vardaataa bhagat bhaa-ay man bhaa-ee hay. ||15||
He Himself is the Giver of liberation, satisfaction and blessings, to those devotees who love Him in their minds. ||15||

aap niraalam gur gam gi-aanaa.
He Himself is immaculate; by contact with the Guru, spiritual wisdom is obtained.

jo deesai tujh maahi samaanaa.
Whatever is seen, shall merge into You.

naanak neech bhikhi-aa dar jaachai mai deejai naam vadaa-ee hay. ||16||1||
 Nanak, the lowly, begs for charity at Your Door; please, bless him with the glorious greatness of Your Name. ||16||1||


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

 so you regard Guru Nanak as the creator of the world?

who was Guru Nanak praying to when he was a Guru? God cant pray to God, as there is only one God..

Guru Nanak had sons..does it mean they were litterally the Sons of God??

Guru Nanak Maharaj used to eat and visit the toilet as any other person would. does it mean that God uses the bathroom?..


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

From: sikhnet.com
Sat Sri Akal

I could be wrong (very wrong) but my view is that Guru Nanakji (and the other Gurus), Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, and whoever else (to each their respective religions) are all the same- "messengers of God".

These are all people that God sent to show humans the Truth. 

Unfortunately, many people didn't listen and others twisted the message to fit their needs. I also believe that God sent Guru Gobind Singh the message to let people know that there would not be anymore Gurus in human form because people began to worship the messengers and not the message.

After all, when was the last messenger of God?>  Sikhism is the youngest of the religions...so I guess it ended there.

Guru Nanakji was not God Him/Herself....but rather he was an extraodinary enlightened remarkable being who was in fact human.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

The whole world and Universe and the Three worlds is God and played by God.
 ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਗਲ ਘਟ ਸੋਹੈ ॥
प्रभ की जोति सगल घट सोहै ॥
 parabh kee jot sagal ghat sohai.
the Light of God is in all hearts.
Guru Arjan Dev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok 
Page 299, Line 17
 ਸੂਖਮ ਅਸਥੂਲ ਸਗਲ ਭਗਵਾਨ ॥
सूखम असथूल सगल भगवान ॥
 sookham asthool sagal bhagvaan.
The Lord God is in all mind and matter, subtle and manifest.
Guru Arjan Dev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok 
. 

 ਨਾਨਕ ਵਜਦਾ ਜੰਤੁ ਵਜਾਇਆ ॥੨॥
नानक वजदा जंतु वजाइआ ॥२॥
 naanak vajdaa jant vajaa-i-aa. ||2||
O Nanak, human beings are the instruments which vibrate as God plays them. ||2||
Guru Amar Das   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok 
Page 1311, Line 2
 ਸੁਪਨੰਤਰੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਸਭੁ ਬਾਜੀ ਸਭੁ ਬਾਜੀ ਖੇਲੁ ਖਿਲਾਵੈਗੋ ॥
सुपनंतरु संसारु सभु बाजी सभु बाजी खेलु खिलावैगो ॥
 supnantar sansaar sabh baajee sabh baajee khayl khilaavaigo.
The whole world is like a game in a dream, all a game. God plays and causes the game to be played.
Guru Ram Das   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok 


© SriGranth.org, a Sri Guru Granth Sahib resource, all rights reserved.

Re: Who is Guru Nanak?


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*-dltd-
*


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## Khojat

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Dear Sikh80,

Thank you for your reply. I understand the basic confusion as expressed in your reply. I am sure there are many others with similar sentiments. We are not alone. Those of the Christian Faith have been facing these same questions for over 2000 years. We are only just starting to explore the depths of our own Faith.

To answer your questions, i first need to clarify some issues;

Firstly, all that I have stated is from the SGGS JI and is according to my interpretation of the same. God forgive me if I ahve put in anything other that the Word og the SGG JI. I have tried to be careful and not insert my own unguided views (guided by the SGGS Ji)

Secondly, in my first post, I stated that God and the Sat Guru are two seperate beings though intertwined and in constant communion. The Sat Guru is pure light and an Immaculate Soul.

As God pleases he selects a pure vessel (a worthy human body) that has proved itself and has reached the highest level of spiritual attainment. God by His Grace then infuses this being with His light and Word. The Light of the Sat Guru is now in an embodied state (has a physical body as opposed to only a spiritual one). The Sat Guru is given the task of teaching and spreding God's Name and Truthfulness to the World that has either gone astray or has forgotten its belief in the Tru One God. The Sat Guru is the closet that any moratl man will come to knowing or seeing God.

Thirdly, when you attempt to understand 
God and his characteristics/virtues, you must be careful not to attribute human failings to Him such as Pride, Ego, Desire, etc. It is a very easy mistake to make. God is free from all such failings that afflict Man.

To answer your questions directly do note;

1. It is God, through the Sat Guru that is teaching the world His Praise. As you have out it, It is God Praising God. This is what it seems like at first Glance. Dig a little deeper and ask a few questions.
If God is free from such things as Pride and Ego, then what purpose does it serve for Him to create and generate His own praise. The answer may lie in the fact that Man has been seperated from God and that God has created the means for Man - His Children - to return to Him.
God has placed the means to Salvation and Reunion with the body of Man. However, it has been Hiddden. Man must find it again and make his way back to God.
God sends the Sat Guru just for this purpose. To bring his word and true religion to His lost Children.
The Sat Guru teached us the Word of God and the Love of God. He teaches us to Praise God from the botom of of hearts and from the depths of our Souls. 
Those rare ones amongst us who heeds this advice and hold it dear to their hearts above all other things begin their Spiritual Journey back to God. Through God's praise, one comes to bear unconditional love to God, one comes to fear God and one comes to obey God. As this process continues, the man ascends the spiritual plane (Sat Guru Nanak mentions 5 such planes in the Japji Sahib). As he ascends higher he receives higher understanding and revelations about the universe, of all things and of God. He attains mental and spiritual prowess but ever remains humble in God's fear.
He continues to ascend until he reached the Tenth Gate and gains union with God. This can happen even while the man is alive on Earth.

This then is the purpose of God seemingly creating and perpetuating His own Praise. His Praise and His Word which he has infused into the Sat Guru is the Life line to be Given to His Children so that they will have the means to return to their Creator, if they have the will and if they are strong enough to do so.  Those who are unable to are not abandoned but they are given continuous opportunities (rebirth). God will not abandon them unless they are the Cursed Ones.

The above, answers all your points raised. I hope it gives you some clarity in thought. No answer is ever complete. Each is subject to interpretation. This is mine.

GurFateh


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Khojat Ji,

1.What is your take on Guru Shabad-today's Hukamnaama: It is telling Hajoor-God is everywhere. Based on your post you say Guru is not God(this is what I am understanding from it, please forgive me if I misunderstood you):
How Can Guru is not God, But the rest of the universe is? Please can you explain it.

jh jh pyKau qh hjUir dUir kqhu n jweI ] riv rihAw srbqR mY mn sdw iDAweI ]1]



2. In the following Guru Shabad Guru Ji is telling that there is nobody equal to Guru God is also written in many different ways that tells that everywhere it is being talked about the same ONE. Ikonkaar. Please explain your take on it.

guru prmysru pwrbRhmu guru fubdw ley qrwie ]2]
ikqu muiK guru swlwhIAY krx kwrx smrQu ]
sy mQy inhcl rhy ijn guir DwirAw hQu ]
guir AMimRq nwmu pIAwilAw jnm mrn kw pQu ]
guru prmysru syivAw BY BMjnu duK lQu ]3]
siqguru gihr gBIru hY suK swgru AGKMfu ]
ijin guru syivAw Awpxw jmdUq n lwgY fMfu ]
gur nwil quil n lgeI Koij ifTw bRhmMfu ]
nwmu inDwnu siqguir dIAw suKu nwnk mn mih mMfu ]4]20]90]

Khojat Ji, I asked you this just for knowing how you came to this conclusion of yours that 'Guru is not God'.
I have no problem with you thinking like that, I just want to know how you reach to this conclusion based on the above GuruShabad. 

I understand that we cant leave any line from Gurbani- All has to be taken as ONE-Ikonkaar.

Thanks for your time.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Respected Khojat ji,

I thank you once again for a wonderful and instructive post. My knowledge is fairly limited and I shall not speculate again on the meanings that are fairly established and are reflected in your post as well. I have checked up again in the Teeka of Dr. sahib singh ji and all that you stated is correct. 

Gurus are embodiment of the almighty.


Thanks and regards for sparing time.


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Khojat Ji,

Please comment on the follwing Vaak:

ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
sabh kishh aapae aap hai dhoojaa avar n koe ||
He Himself is everything; there is no other at all.


in the light of your own teachings, as this one is also in the contradiction of yours, but you say you are guided by GURBANI- this is Gurbani.


Waheguru

Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Someviews Of Sikhnet.com*
I couldn't find a straight answer.....
Anyways i will try and explain,my understanding,feel free to question it.

Guru Nanak ji is not GOD.He is a messenger of GOD like Jesus Christ, i have trouble digesting it,becaus eof how sikhism is defined.

SO who is Guru Nanak ji or any other Guru...Well as we all call them they are Guru, teachers,people who can show us and help us to be on the right path.

Sikhs are disciples. Disciple of something good i.e. Sikh religion. Guru Nak ji didi not established Sikhsim but but he created Sikhs i.e. disciples by showing a way of living that was completly different from any other religion.

Should we call him a GOD then, no because he has shown the path and we need to follow it.

SO Guru Nanak ji is our Guru and as good disciples we have good faith in him.

Regards.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

The answer is:

Guru Nanak is Satguru.
No.2
Now it is upto the interested person to find out what is "Satguru" by looking into the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*No.3*
In this thread I  feel via Bani its amply been that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was God’s chosen one. And that Guruji was not Waheguru.
Our Gurus attribute their Bani to Guru Nanak and this is a pointer to the continuity in Sikhism and that the Jyot of Guru Nanak Dev Ji passed onto all our Gurus.

We must realize the difference Waheguru and Guru. The difference becomes abs clear via Mool Mantra and Jaap Sahib. 

The following stanzas also show the difference: 
(Ang 819-18, Bilawal Mahall 5)
kaho naanak kirpaa bha-ee parabh bha-ay sahaa-ee. ||2||15||79||
Says Nanak, God has showered me with His Mercy; He has become my help and support. ||2||15||79||
Ang 820-2, Bilawal Mahalla 5)
man baaNchhat fal diti-an naanak balihaaree. ||2||16||80||
I have been blessed with the fruits of my mind's desires; Nanak is a sacrifice to Him. ||2||16||80||


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*No.4*
Could it be that Guruji is saying ; that Waheguruji is a Brahamgyani?
Its like saying Guru Gobind Singh ji was a Khalsa but that does not mean  Khalsas are Guruji. 

I say this because I humbly feel that as per Mool Mantra there is only one God and there is no mention of anything else.

And then in Jaap Sahib Guruji salutes God who cannot be born and cannot die.

God forgive me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*No.5*
My understanding is that there are two souls : Jivatma and Paramatma
Jivatama is imbued with the poetentiality of Paramatma. So long as Jivatama does not realize its divine potentiality , it roams in incarnations (Junis)...like a dreamer dreaming dreams. As soon as it realizes its true potential , it becomes one with Paramatma, realizing that its separation from Paramatma was a mere play of Maya or a drunk man's dream.

Once woken from the dream, the dreamer dreams no more , i.e, he becomes 'Ajuni'. 

Jivatma that has developed complete knowledge of Parmatma becomes Paramatma himself like the the wave merges back into the stillness of water. In that state Jivatma escapes thraldom of incarnations and becomes 'Ajuni'.

The knower of Brahm become Brahmn. Knowing is becoming.

I believe Guru Nanak was a fully illumined knower of Brahm and in that respect he was the expression of Brahm Himself. Sukmani Sahab provides the basis of this understanding.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

The line from page 1387 you quoted is interesting. 

If one analyses it on the basis of Gurbani Grammer in the original Gurmukhi form it has an 'aunkar' each for the words 'Jan' 'Nanak' and 'Gur'. On the other hand the word 'Parbrahm' has no 'aunkar'.

Usually when a masculine singular word is without any aunkar it represents an entity or person being addressed. In this case the writer Bhatt is addressing 'Parbrahm' and saying that 'Nanak(u)' who is your(Parbrahm's) 'Jan(u)' or sevak, and is 'Gur(u)'as well, in this world has become apparent (Pargat) in your (Har's) entire world (sagal jagat). The 'aunkar' in this situation represents the auxilliary verb 'is' or 'hai' in Punjabi thus rendering the above words as 'Nanak hai', 'Sevak hai', and 'Guru hai'.

The overall meaning as given by Prof. Sahib Singh in Guru Granth Darpan also is 

"Tera sevak, he  Parbrahm, tera roop Guru Nanak sare jagat vich pargat hoia hai"

Thus, the writer Bhatt of these swayiaas is addressing Parbarahm to refer to Guru Nanak as a human person as a roop of His as indeed all creation is His roop. (see 'Eh vis sansar tum dekhde, ih har ka roop hai, har roop nadri ayia. in Ramkali Anand Sahib).
*No.6*
I hope this resolves the apparent contradiction that Ajuni God or Waheguru cannot be a person born from a womb.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*No.7*
Guru Nanak Dev ji has said in Mool Mantra that God is 'ajooni'. Tenth Nanak Guru Gobind Singh ji in Jaap Sahib too has said the same. And has gone to the extent of saying that if anyone equates/calls him God then this person will go to hell.

In fact this points to a problem. There are some translations of Sri Granth Sahib ji which are incorrect.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*The Concept of God as Creator in Sikhism​ **Dr. Debabrata Das**​ _* Scholar of Philosophy and comparative religion. Address: 19/5, Pottery Road, Kolkata-700 015 India_.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

In the following line Guru sahib states that he has seen the GOD.The obvious reference would be the Supreme the truth the Sat.  Guru sahibs  is telling his experience.




khu nwnk hir isau mnu mwinAw so pRBu nYxI fITw ]1] (452-13, Awsw, mÚ 5)
Says Nanak, my mind is in harmony with the Lord; I have seen God with my eyes. ||1||[/FONT]​


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਰੈਣਿ ਕੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਚਲਣ ਵੇਲਾ ਆਦੀ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਸਭ ਚਲੀ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਦੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਢਿਲ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਕਰਿਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਹੋਵਹੁ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਦ ਮਾਣਹੁ ਰਲੀਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖ ਖੋਵਹੁ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਾਂਦੀ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਸਫਲਿਓ*ੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਦੀ ॥੪॥੧॥੩॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 77}​ 
**************************************************  **********************

pdArQ:- AwdI—ilAWdw hY, lY AwauNdw hY (AWdI) [ kir pUrw—pUrw jwx ky, ABu`l jwx ky [ syvhu—srnI pvo [ rYix—rwq, aumr [ clI ivhwdI—lµGdI jw rhI hY [
**************************************************  ************************

iKnu iKnu—hryk iKn (ivc), suAws suAws [ syvhu—ismro[ mUil—iblkul hI [ ijqu—ijs (au~dm) dI rwhIN [ AsiQru—At`l, At`l Awqmk jIvn vwly [ rlIAw—Awqmk Awnµd [ jnm mrx duK—jnm mrn dy gyV ivc pwx vwly du`K [ Bydu—&rk [ ijqu—ijs (gurU) ivc [ imil—iml ky, juV ky [ suKWdI—ipAwrI l`gdI hY [ sPilau—{not:- ‘a’ dy nwl do mwqrw hn u Aqy o [ Asl l&z hY ‘sPilE’, ieQy ‘siPlau’ pVHnw hY [4[
**************************************************  **************************

ArQ:- hir-nwm dw vxj krn Awey hy jIv-imqR! (izMdgI dI rwq dy) cOQy phr prmwqmw (jIv dy ie`QoN) qurn dw smw lY (hI) AwauNdw hY [ hy vxjwry jIv-imqR! gurU nUµ ABu`l jwx ky gurU dI srn pvo, (izMdgI dI) swrI rwq bIqdI jw rhI hY [ (hy jIv-imqR!) suAws suAws prmwqmw dw nwm ismro, (ies kMm ivc) iblkul Awls nwh kro, ismrn dI brkiq nwl hI sdw vwsqy At`l Awqmk jIvn vwly bx skogy [ (hy jIv-imqR! ismrn dI brkiq nwl hI) prmwqmw dy imlwp dw Awnµd sdw mwxogy qy jnm mrn dy gyV iv`c pwx vwly duKwN ƒ mukw skygw [

(hy jIv-imqR!) gurU qy prmwqmw ivc (rqw BI) &rk nwh smJo gurU (dy crnwN) iv`c juV ky hI prmwqmw dI BgqI ipAwrI l`gdI hY [

**************************************************  *******
[/FONT] Pk 70 and namjap ji,

We are all learning and it shall continue till the final call. We are all acting as per HIS hukum. 
I have posted above the translation of Dr.Sahib Singh ji that  shows that there is perfect alignment with  that you have stated.
The above shall be helpful to those knowing Gurmukhi. However, that pk70 ji has stated is the essence of this shabad as per Sahib singh ji's version as well. 
********************************************************

[/FONT]Note:The  above has also been posted in the Thread of 'Stop disrespecting.....'
The post of pk70 is equally relevant in this thread also.

Bhul chuk Mauf


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Guru and word : A Pause*


There are many threads going on guru and gurmukh.It is imperative to clarify few things. At the moment I am reminded of a line that I am sharing with you. It is all subject to discussion and correction.I am constrained to keep this in this thread as Guru nanak is being discussed here.



In my humble opinion,there should be no difference between the 'Word of God'/shabad and God Himself. 

[*Recapitulation:*The Guru is not a physical body made of the five element, i.e. flesh & blood or ink and paper. Guru Nanak Sahib Ji was asked by Sidhs (mystics) living in the Himalayas,
 "Who is your Guru and who's disciple are you?" The Guru replied:

ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਧੁਨਿ ਚੇਲਾ ॥
"The Shabad is the Guru, upon whom I lovingly focus my consciousness; I am the chaylaa, the disciple." (Ang 943)​ 

The Shabad [the Divine Infinite Wisdom] is the Guru. 

The Guru is not physical but was manifested and revealed through a body. The body is praise-worthy and respect-worthy as it contained the Divine Light, lived the message and interpreted the 'Shabad'. 

For this reason , even bowing to SGGS ji is a sign of submission before the ‘Word of God’. It is not worshipping the physical body. [It includes Granth (Scripture) form or when Guru Sahibaan were in human form the human body, it is a submission to the ‘Shabad’/ the Divine Infinite Wisdom]

There are very many uses of the term 'shabad' that can be explored further if someone feels interested. Besides indicating 'Guru' it has very many meanings depending upon the context.

I regret that the thread has been not properly linked so far as the Katha is linked. It would be reposted after a time.


[/FONT]


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Meaning of "
I have* seen god with my eyes*

*******************************************************

ਹਰਿ ਕੀਆ ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਣਾਈਆ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਵਿਟੜਿਅਹੁ ਹਉ ਘੋਲੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਮੇਲਾਈਆ ॥ ਸਭਿ ਆਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਰੀਆ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਮਨਿ ਚਿੰਦਿਅੜਾ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਤੁਠੜਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੫॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 452}

pdArQ:- ivtiVAhu—qoN [ hau—mYN [ GolI—sdky [ ijin—ijs (gurU) ny [ siB—swrIAW [ min icMidAVw—mn ivc icqivAw hoieAw [ quTVw—pRsMn [ nwim—nwm ivc [ nwnku—(AwKdw hY) [5[


ArQ:- hy myry ipAwry! mYƒ gurU ny prmwqmw dIAW is&iq-swlwh dIAW g`lW suxweIAW hn, mYN aus gurU qoN sdky jWdI hW ijs ny mYƒ pRBU-pqI dy crnW ivc joV id`qw hY [ hy myry ipAwry! pRBU ny myrIAW swrIAW AwsW pUrIAW kr id`qIAW hn, pRBU pwsy mYN mn-icqivAw Pl pw ilAw hY [


nwnk (AwKdw hY—) hy myry ipAwry! ijs (vf-BwgI mnu`K auqy) prmwqmw dieAwvwn huMdw hY auh prmwqmw dy nwm ivc lIn ho jWdw hY [5[





Thanks Bhagat for pointing out that it may be a metaphor.


----------



## Khojat

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Dear Sardar123,

You must be careful with the terms and words you use. When you use the word Guru, who are you referring to?

The Guru of Nanak is God Himself. So the Guru is God. God Himself conferred the Titile of "Sat Guru" upon Nanak.This clarification should end the discussion here itself but I think I may understand the question you are trying to pose and woudl like to clarify if I may.

If yoou refer to my earlier post, I mentioned that as per the Bani of the SGGS Ji, when God made Himself manifest he did so by means of the Word and the SatGuru. From this did the universe eminate. The Light of God was in the bani and the Sat Guru. The Entire creation also eminated from the same Supreme Lord, our God. Within each life is contained God's light. Even the inanimate is infused with his Light and Being.

The SGGS tell us that God is All Prevading and that He is present in water, earth and the firmaments. God Light prevades the Heavenly Regions and the Nether Regions. God is in His Creation and His Creation is contained within Him. 

In the Creation is His Light and in His Light is the Creation. 

All the Creation is His manisfestion. In the same way the Sat Guru and the Bani are his manifestation. God however is not simply the sum of His parts as it were (God forgive me for using such an analogy), he is greater than that. There are qualities that are unknown to anyone or any being, perhaps even unknown to the Sat Guru. God afterall is both Sargun and Nirgun.

The Sat Guru is one aspect and manifestation of God, whom he sends when the world falls into darkeness and cries to the Creator for help. Within the Sat Guru is the Bani and the Light of God. God speaks through the Holy mouth of the Sat Guru. Although God (Guru) and the Sat Guru are two seperate entities they are intertwined and are in constant communion. He who looks to the Sat Guru will see the Divine Light, The Light which is God shining brightly within Him. That is why it is said that if you have seen or heard Sat Guru Nanak, you have seen and heard God Himself.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Siri Waheguru Ji Ki Fathe







Sardara123 said:


> Khojat Ji,
> 
> 1.What is your take on Guru Shabad-today's Hukamnaama: It is telling Hajoor-God is everywhere. Based on your post you say Guru is not God(this is what I am understanding from it, please forgive me if I misunderstood you):
> How Can Guru is not God, But the rest of the universe is? Please can you explain it.
> 
> jh jh pyKau qh hjUir dUir kqhu n jweI ] riv rihAw srbqR mY mn sdw iDAweI ]1]
> 
> 
> 
> 2. In the following Guru Shabad Guru Ji is telling that there is nobody equal to Guru God is also written in many different ways that tells that everywhere it is being talked about the same ONE. Ikonkaar. Please explain your take on it.
> 
> guru prmysru pwrbRhmu guru fubdw ley qrwie ]2]
> ikqu muiK guru swlwhIAY krx kwrx smrQu ]
> sy mQy inhcl rhy ijn guir DwirAw hQu ]
> guir AMimRq nwmu pIAwilAw jnm mrn kw pQu ]
> guru prmysru syivAw BY BMjnu duK lQu ]3]
> siqguru gihr gBIru hY suK swgru AGKMfu ]
> ijin guru syivAw Awpxw jmdUq n lwgY fMfu ]
> gur nwil quil n lgeI Koij ifTw bRhmMfu ]
> nwmu inDwnu siqguir dIAw suKu nwnk mn mih mMfu ]4]20]90]
> 
> Khojat Ji, I asked you this just for knowing how you came to this conclusion of yours that 'Guru is not God'.
> I have no problem with you thinking like that, I just want to know how you reach to this conclusion based on the above GuruShabad.
> 
> I understand that we cant leave any line from Gurbani- All has to be taken as ONE-Ikonkaar.
> 
> Thanks for your time.


----------



## Khojat

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Dear Sardar 123,

The bani of the SGGS Ji is clear that God and the Sat Guru are two seperate beings. 

The Light and Word of God (Guru) are vested within the Sat Guru. The Sat Guru is a a pure soul and of pure light in the unembodied form. As and when it pleases God (Guru), he commands the Sat Guru to enter a Holy Body. One that has proved itself and one that has attained the highest level of spiritual awareness. Unto this being the Light and Word of God are infused.

The SGGS tells us the the Sat Guru has been coming to Earth throughout the 4 ages. This means that the Sat Guru ahs appeared many items in different bodies and thought Men how to worship and commune with God.

The Sat Guru is the closet thing to God that any mortal being has seen or heard. In this sense the Sat Guru is God. This distinct from the concept that God takes the form of a human being and is born in this world. The Japji Sahib clearly rejects this concept. God is unborn. The Sat Guru through all the ages is born of woman. None have appeared out of thin air.




Sardara123 said:


> Khojat Ji,
> 
> 1.What is your take on Guru Shabad-today's Hukamnaama: It is telling Hajoor-God is everywhere. Based on your post you say Guru is not God(this is what I am understanding from it, please forgive me if I misunderstood you):
> How Can Guru is not God, But the rest of the universe is? Please can you explain it.
> 
> jh jh pyKau qh hjUir dUir kqhu n jweI ] riv rihAw srbqR mY mn sdw iDAweI ]1]
> 
> 
> 
> 2. In the following Guru Shabad Guru Ji is telling that there is nobody equal to Guru God is also written in many different ways that tells that everywhere it is being talked about the same ONE. Ikonkaar. Please explain your take on it.
> 
> guru prmysru pwrbRhmu guru fubdw ley qrwie ]2]
> ikqu muiK guru swlwhIAY krx kwrx smrQu ]
> sy mQy inhcl rhy ijn guir DwirAw hQu ]
> guir AMimRq nwmu pIAwilAw jnm mrn kw pQu ]
> guru prmysru syivAw BY BMjnu duK lQu ]3]
> siqguru gihr gBIru hY suK swgru AGKMfu ]
> ijin guru syivAw Awpxw jmdUq n lwgY fMfu ]
> gur nwil quil n lgeI Koij ifTw bRhmMfu ]
> nwmu inDwnu siqguir dIAw suKu nwnk mn mih mMfu ]4]20]90]
> 
> Khojat Ji, I asked you this just for knowing how you came to this conclusion of yours that 'Guru is not God'.
> I have no problem with you thinking like that, I just want to know how you reach to this conclusion based on the above GuruShabad.
> 
> I understand that we cant leave any line from Gurbani- All has to be taken as ONE-Ikonkaar.
> 
> Thanks for your time.


----------



## Khojat

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Dear Yograj,

I congratulate your on zeal and ardent beliefs and I do not mean this in a sacarstics manner as God is my witness. You may be rigth on some issues and worng in others. Regardless, never let your zeal and enthusiasm blind you or force you to advocate a certain position or belief. 

It is a narrow path for those whose seek the path to enlightenment. We should all beware, lest we fall off the path and into the path of illusion and doubt - the progeny of duality.

Secondly the thoughts expressed by me are just that, my thoughts and interpretations of the Holy Scriptures of the SGGS JI. They are not my teaching. I am no one to teach or preach. I myslef am a seeker of the TRUTH just as you are. My mind is open to seek advice, clarifications and even positions which are in opposition to mind. Without discourse there is no discovery and enlightenment. However it should be constructive not just argumentative and/or confrontational. 

The Sun in our Sky is but one. It's light seems to be one but hold up a piece of Crystal (The Sat Guru) to it and it splits into its component of colours. Concentrate this light again and it wil again merge into one light. In Unity, there is still diversity. God is the Light, The Sat Guru the Crystal, The spectrum of colours if God's Creation of Different kinds including religions. Within each colour of the spectrum, that whch exists, looks upon itself as a particular colour. It views it neighbour as different from it as it has a different colour. Fools are we all, all the colours merge into the One and become One. Such is our true destiny, Such is our True Path Home.

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

To your earlier post I will endeavour to reply but your questions require a lengthy reply which I cannot do justice to at the moment.

Please also note that SGGS JI is an abbreviation for Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It is the same title with which we reverently address our Holy Sat Gurus (Eg. Shri Guru Nank Dev Ji or Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji). The Holy scripture has been vested with the Guruship by the 10th Master and showed be showed no lesser reverence in being addressed. 

Commenting on the Vaak below, please note

ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
sabh kishh aapae aap hai dhoojaa avar n koe ||
He Himself is everything; there is no other at all.

I do not know the context in which this verse has been taken and usually I refrain from commenting unless I have the full picture. However I will endeavour to make some brief comments.

From God came all things. In all things has God infused his light. All that is done is by His will and His Command. There is none that exists outside of his Will. The Lord God is the Doer of all things. God has manifested Himself in a number of ways; through His Word, Through the Sat Guru and through His Creation. He also manifests Himself through the congragation of the Holy who are the keepers of His Word and who are given the Word by the Sat Guru.

In Essence God is all by Himslef and He is the Doer of All Things. There is no other. It is God, in communion with the Sat Guru, that inspires the Sat Guru speak of God and of His Word. It is by Divine Will that the Existance came into being. 

God is the Supreme Light and the Sat Guru is the embodiment of this Light. However the Sat Guru is a created being and God self created. In the Beginning before the ages began, the Lord was by Himslef in deep contemplation. There was nothing in existance, not even air and all was darkness. 

I do not see how this Vaak leads to the conclusion that the Sat Guru is God.
The Guru of Nanak is the One God. Nanak is the vessle of humility and of the highest purity in whom the Lord poured His Ambrosial Name and vested this vessel with His Light.

God is Unborn and Self Existent. 

The Sat Guru is the Essence of God for he is totally imbued with God's presences and Spirit. The Sat Guru ahs all Spiritual and Temporal Power adn can Command all of the Heavens and the Nether Worlds. Be the Sat Guru in the form of Ram, Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Nanak and all his forms past, present and future, he is still a created being, made of flesh and born of woman. The repository of Divine Light, The Knower of God.






Pyramid said:


> Khojat Ji,
> 
> Please comment on the follwing Vaak:
> 
> ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
> sabh kishh aapae aap hai dhoojaa avar n koe ||
> He Himself is everything; there is no other at all.
> 
> 
> in the light of your own teachings, as this one is also in the contradiction of yours, but you say you are guided by GURBANI- this is Gurbani.
> 
> 
> Waheguru
> 
> Tuhada Das
> Yograj


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Interesting discussion.......... 

Sardar Ji and Khojat Ji - both are right from their own perspectives.


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Khojat said:


> Dear Sardar 123,
> /////
> There are qualities that are unknown to anyone or any being, *perhaps even unknown to the Sat Guru.*
> 
> //////
> 
> The bani of the SGGS Ji is clear that *God and the Sat Guru are two seperate beings*.
> 
> The Light and Word of God (Guru) are vested within the Sat Guru. The Sat Guru is a a pure soul and of pure light in the unembodied form. As and when it pleases God (Guru), he commands the Sat Guru to enter a Holy Body. One that has proved itself and one that has attained the highest level of spiritual awareness. Unto this being the Light and Word of God are infused.
> 
> The SGGS tells us the the Sat Guru has been coming to Earth throughout the 4 ages. This means that the Sat Guru ahs appeared many items in different bodies and thought Men how to worship and commune with God.
> 
> The *Sat Guru is the closet thing to God* that any mortal being has seen or heard. In this sense the Sat Guru is God. This distinct from the concept that God takes the form of a human being and is born in this world. The Japji Sahib clearly rejects this concept. God is unborn. *The Sat Guru through all the ages is born of woman.* None have appeared out of thin air.


 
Khojat Ji,

Thankyou for your time. 
I dont hear Guru Ji saying these things. 

Thanks a lot

Satguru is not a just a body of flesh born out of flesh.
*Guru Nanak was, is and will be FOREVER, PRESENT EVERYWHERE.*

No further Question. I wanted to know what makes you believe what you believe, You made it absolutely clear.

Thanks for the time you took to answer my question.
Thanks again.


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

It would be good, Khojat Ji, if you could also provide references from SGGS to support your beliefs. :star:

Here are a link you may want to use :

Sri Granth


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



			
				Khojat said:
			
		

> There are qualities that are unknown to anyone or any being, *perhaps even unknown to the Sat Guru.*


 
Thankyou Khojat Ji,

You made these comments in one of your posts, After this I have no further question. I believe in Satguru, the Creator and He knows ALL. My Nanak's knowledge is limitless . Sorry for the trouble you had to go through answering my querry.

Waheguru

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

“*Shabad guru surat dhun chella*”

Kindly Google out-


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## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Pyramid said:


> I believe in Satguru, the Creator and He knows ALL. My Nanak's knowledge is limitless .


 
Guru Nanak/Satguru/Guru/Lord/Har Ke Sant/Brahmgyani/Saint/God/Gurbani: 'the Creator' is, was and will be present, everywhere.

If I think of making a distinction between Guru and God, it will make me a manmukh.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Portraits of Guru Nanak Dev
What does it take to be a Sikh?*​ *Jasjit Singh Walia**​ _* Professor of Chemistry, Loyola University, New Orleans, New Orleans, LA. 70118. USA._
  One of the fundamental question in Sikh faith is: who is a Sikh. A definition derived entirely from sacred Sri Guru Granth Sahib (SGGS) is summarized here 


-KIndly Google out-


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

It is reposted*
Shabad guru surat dhun chella*”

In the above line, uttered by Guru nanak dev Maharaaj ji in response to a question of Sidhas, is contained a philopshy that has been ignored by us for quite a time and we are lost in the meaning of Guru in body.

Shabad in the above tuk can be assigned many meaning including the 'Naam' that is bestowed upon the mankind by HIS grace. Right now we have one Guru.Guru Granth sahib ji. It is 'shabad guru' as it contains the holy words of God and is the sargun form of the God. 

Guru Nanak dev ji uttered that was told to HIm or that was inspired to state. The confusion prevails that we lack the knowledge so far as these terms and thier usage. English translations have created a mess. It is strongly urged that we should get out of the habit of reading the english translations and interpretation. One should learn Gurmukhi and then appreciate the Granth. I am a novice as most of us here but It is felt that we fall into the trap of english translations as it is handy.

We all have this 'shabd' in our body.It is lying dormant. The more sensitivity we have been gifted to experience, during these mystical higher states of altered consciousness (_Surat Dhun_), the more accurately will we begin to receive the desired answers from the awakened _Shabad_ within us.

Further it is clarified that naam is not only the name of Lord.It is much more that this.

_Naam key Dharay sagle Jant_

  and further 
_Dehi Main iska bisram
and
Naam ke Dhare Puria sab Bhavan
_
Irrespective of who is guru, it is clear that sikhs do remember and worship the sole one ,the Creator. There should be no confusion in this regard. One would be misleading other by stating things to contrary. It is better to not to post the views than to misguide and misinterpret the things. Sikhs do not pray to Gurus but to waheguru only. It is their love for guru nanak dev ji that they say things that represent their love for super consciousness that He was bestowed with.

I shall not be able to attend to any question on this as the knowledge that I possess is being shared. I think it is a long journey. One cannot help much. Kindly see the other thread 'word'/shabad/naam.' It is un- attended to after two circulations.

Let HIM bless us all.


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sardara123 said:


> *Guru Nanak was, is and will be FOREVER, PRESENT EVERYWHERE.*
> 
> .


 
Sardara123, 

Truth is this. Truth never Die.


----------



## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

​


Pyramid said:


> I believe in Satguru, the Creator and He knows ALL. My Nanak's knowledge is limitless


 

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar
Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi
ANG 98/99
SGGS JI
SATGURU PRASAAD

ਮਾਝ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
maajh mehalaa 5 ||
Maajh, Fifth Mehl:


ਦੁਖੁ ਤਦੇ ਜਾ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਜਾਵੈ ॥ 
dhukh thadhae jaa visar jaavai ||
They forget the Lord, and they suffer in pain.


ਭੁਖ ਵਿਆਪੈ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ 
bhukh viaapai bahu bidhh dhhaavai ||
Afflicted with hunger, they run around in all directions.


ਸਿਮਰਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਦੇਵੈ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ 
simarath naam sadhaa suhaelaa jis dhaevai dheen dhaeiaalaa jeeo ||1||
Meditating in remembrance on the Naam, they are happy forever. The Lord, Merciful to the meek, bestows it upon them. ||1||


ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਵਡ ਸਮਰਥਾ ॥ 
sathigur maeraa vadd samarathhaa ||
My True Guru is absolutely All-powerful.

ਜੀਇ ਸਮਾਲੀ ਤਾ ਸਭੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਲਥਾ ॥ 
jeee samaalee thaa sabh dhukh lathhaa ||
When I dwell upon Him in my soul, all my sorrows depart.


ਚਿੰਤਾ ਰੋਗੁ ਗਈ ਹਉ ਪੀੜਾ ਆਪਿ ਕਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥ 
chinthaa rog gee ho peerraa aap karae prathipaalaa jeeo ||2||
The sickness of anxiety and the disease of ego are cured; He Himself cherishes me. ||2||


ਬਾਰਿਕ ਵਾਂਗੀ ਹਉ ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਮੰਗਾ ॥ 
baarik vaangee ho sabh kishh mangaa ||
Like a child, I ask for everything.


ਦੇਦੇ ਤੋਟਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਰੰਗਾ ॥ 
dhaedhae thott naahee prabh rangaa ||
God is Bountiful and Beautiful; He never comes up empty.


ਪੈਰੀ ਪੈ ਪੈ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਮਨਾਈ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲ ਗੋਪਾਲਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥ 
pairee pai pai bahuth manaaee dheen dhaeiaal gopaalaa jeeo ||3||
Again and again, I fall at His Feet. He is Merciful to the meek, the Sustainer of the World. ||3||


ਹਉ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ॥ 
ho balihaaree sathigur poorae ||
I am a sacrifice to the Perfect True Guru,


ਜਿਨਿ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਾਟੇ ਸਗਲੇ ਮੇਰੇ ॥ 
jin bandhhan kaattae sagalae maerae ||
who has shattered all my bonds.


ਹਿਰਦੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਕੀਏ ਨਾਨਕ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਸਾਲਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੮॥੧੫॥ 
hiradhai naam dhae niramal keeeae naanak rang rasaalaa jeeo ||4||8||15||
With the Naam, the Name of the Lord, in my heart, I have been purified. O Nanak, His Love has imbued me with nectar. ||4||8||15||

Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan
Gurbani har alakh lakhiayaa
Gurbani Gavo Bhaee
charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​


----------



## lalihayer

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sadh Sangat jio,
No doubt, Guru Nanak became one with Lord, but he was a human. 
If Guru Nanak was lord himself, why he didn't say in mool mantra. Guru Nanak should have plainly said "I am God".

So how long before we sikhs will start praying Guru Nank as incarnation of God? Tenth Master gave us SGGS for directions. We ignore mool mantra and try our best to find some tuks (where Guru is compared to God) to prove Nanak was God himself. 

I was thinking of few centuries (time it took christians to start worshiping Jesus as God), but now I think it will take only few decades to become another sect of hinduism worshipping blindly god Nanak and ignoring shabad guru. Soon some people will start saying that like Jesus he was born to a virgin .

Bhul chuk maaf. I didn't have time to read whole thread. I am posting after reading thread heading 'Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is Lord Himself'.


----------



## lalihayer

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

ਤਿਲੰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੩ ॥ 
Tilang, Fifth Mehl, Third House: 

ਕਰਤੇ ਕੁਦਰਤੀ ਮੁਸਤਾਕੁ ॥ 
O Creator, through Your creative potency, I am in love with You. 

ਦੀਨ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਏਕ ਤੂਹੀ ਸਭ ਖਲਕ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਪਾਕੁ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 

You alone are my spiritual and temporal Lord; and yet, You are detached from all Your creation. ||Pause|| 

ਖਿਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪਦਾ ਆਚਰਜ ਤੇਰੇ ਰੂਪ ॥
In an instant, You establish and disestablish. Wondrous is Your form! 

ਕਉਣੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਚਲਤ ਤੇਰੇ ਅੰਧਿਆਰੇ ਮਹਿ ਦੀਪ ॥੧॥ 
Who can know Your play? You are the Light in the darkness. ||1|| 


ਖੁਦਿ ਖਸਮ ਖਲਕ ਜਹਾਨ ਅਲਹ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥ 
You are the Master of Your creation, the Lord of all the world, O Merciful Lord God. 


ਦਿਨਸੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਜਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਅਰਾਧੇ ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਦੋਜਕਿ ਜਾਇ ॥੨॥ 

One who worships You day and night - why should he have to go to hell? ||2|| 

ਅਜਰਾਈਲੁ ਯਾਰੁ ਬੰਦੇ ਜਿਸੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥ 
Azraa-eel, the Messenger of Death, is the friend of the human being who has Your support, Lord. 


ਗੁਨਹ ਉਸ ਕੇ ਸਗਲ ਆਫੂ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਨ ਦੇਖਹਿ ਦੀਦਾਰੁ ॥੩॥ 
His sins are all forgiven; Your humble servant gazes upon Your Vision. ||3|| 


ਦੁਨੀਆ ਚੀਜ ਫਿਲਹਾਲ ਸਗਲੇ ਸਚੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਉ ॥ 
All worldly considerations are for the present only. True peace comes only from Your Name. 

ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਬੂਝਿਆ ਸਦਾ ਏਕਸੁ ਗਾਉ ॥੪॥੪॥ 
Meeting the Guru, Nanak understands; He sings only Your Praises forever, O Lord. ||4||4|| 

Today's Hukamnama from Darbar Sahib. Is Guru Nanak praising himself? If Guru is compared to God in some shabads, why do you assume Guru Nanak is God himself? 
Here is a doha of Kabir ji (not sure if from SGGS),
Guru govind dhovu khade, kake lagav paay
Balihari guru apne, jin govind diyo dikhay. 
Here Bhagat Kabir gave guru status higher than Lord himself, because thourgh guru only we could reach Lord.
If in some shabads guru is praised and compared to Lord, how does it prove that Guru Nanak was Creator Lord himself?
Bhul chuk maaf.


----------



## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji age 1389:SearchGurbani.com 

We find in Guruji, these words: 

  ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੩॥ 
kab kal sujas gaavo gur naanak raaj jog jin maaniou ||3||
KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||3||


 ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਪਿਲਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਰੋ ॥ 
gaavehi kapilaadh aadh jogaesur aparanpar avathaar varo ||
Kapila and the other Yogis sing of Guru Nanak. He is the Avataar, the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord.


----------



## lalihayer

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



aad0002 said:


> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji age 1389:SearchGurbani.com
> 
> We find in Guruji, these words:
> 
> ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੩॥
> kab kal sujas gaavo gur naanak raaj jog jin maaniou ||3||
> KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||3||
> 
> 
> ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਪਿਲਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਰੋ ॥
> gaavehi kapilaadh aadh jogaesur aparanpar avathaar varo ||
> Kapila and the other Yogis sing of Guru Nanak. He is the Avataar, the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord.


Yes, these are swaiyas in praise of Guru Nanak. While praising guru, he is even called avatar of Lord himself. Read whole shabad, not selected tuks to prove your points. SGGS is collections of banis of gurus and bhagats written at different times and in different contexts. You can take tuk from here and there and prove anything.
Would you read mool mantar again please. If Guru Nanak was Lord himself, what stopped Guru Nanak from telling the truth that he is Lord Creator himself? Instead he said 'Gur Prasad'.


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Khojat said:


> Dear Yograj,
> 
> I congratulate your on zeal and ardent beliefs and I do not mean this in a sacarstics manner as God is my witness. You may be rigth on some issues and worng in others. Regardless, never let your zeal and enthusiasm blind you or force you to advocate a certain position or belief.
> 
> It is a narrow path for those whose seek the path to enlightenment. We should all beware, lest we fall off the path and into the path of illusion and doubt - the progeny of duality.
> 
> Secondly the thoughts expressed by me are just that, my thoughts and interpretations of the Holy Scriptures of the SGGS JI. They are not my teaching. I am no one to teach or preach. I myslef am a seeker of the TRUTH just as you are. *My mind is open to seek advice, clarifications and even positions which are in opposition to mind. Without discourse there is no discovery and enlightenment. However it should be constructive not just argumentative and/or confrontational. *
> 
> The Sun in our Sky is but one. It's light seems to be one but hold up a piece of Crystal (The Sat Guru) to it and it splits into its component of colours. Concentrate this light again and it wil again merge into one light. In Unity, there is still diversity. God is the Light, The Sat Guru the Crystal, The spectrum of colours if God's Creation of Different kinds including religions. Within each colour of the spectrum, that whch exists, looks upon itself as a particular colour. It views it neighbour as different from it as it has a different colour. Fools are we all, all the colours merge into the One and become One. Such is our true destiny, Such is our True Path Home.
> 
> Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
> 
> To your earlier post I will endeavour to reply but your questions require a lengthy reply which I cannot do justice to at the moment.
> 
> Please also note that SGGS JI is an abbreviation for Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It is the same title with which we reverently address our Holy Sat Gurus (Eg. Shri Guru Nank Dev Ji or Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji). The Holy scripture has been vested with the Guruship by the 10th Master and showed be showed no lesser reverence in being addressed.
> 
> Commenting on the Vaak below, please note
> 
> ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
> sabh kishh aapae aap hai dhoojaa avar n koe ||
> He Himself is everything; there is no other at all.
> 
> I do not know the context in which this verse has been taken and usually I refrain from commenting unless I have the full picture. However I will endeavour to make some brief comments.
> 
> From God came all things. In all things has God infused his light. All that is done is by His will and His Command. There is none that exists outside of his Will. The Lord God is the Doer of all things. God has manifested Himself in a number of ways; through His Word, Through the Sat Guru and through His Creation. He also manifests Himself through the congragation of the Holy who are the keepers of His Word and who are given the Word by the Sat Guru.
> 
> In Essence God is all by Himslef and He is the Doer of All Things. There is no other. It is God, in communion with the Sat Guru, that inspires the Sat Guru speak of God and of His Word. It is by Divine Will that the Existance came into being.
> 
> God is the Supreme Light and the Sat Guru is the embodiment of this Light. However the Sat Guru is a created being and God self created. In the Beginning before the ages began, the Lord was by Himslef in deep contemplation. There was nothing in existance, not even air and all was darkness.
> 
> I do not see how this Vaak leads to the conclusion that the Sat Guru is God.
> The Guru of Nanak is the One God. Nanak is the vessle of humility and of the highest purity in whom the Lord poured His Ambrosial Name and vested this vessel with His Light.
> 
> God is Unborn and Self Existent.
> 
> The Sat Guru is the Essence of God for he is totally imbued with God's presences and Spirit. The Sat Guru ahs all Spiritual and Temporal Power adn can Command all of the Heavens and the Nether Worlds. Be the Sat Guru in the form of Ram, Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Nanak and all his forms past, present and future, he is still a created being, made of flesh and born of woman. The repository of Divine Light, The Knower of God.


 

Sardara Ji and Pyramid Ji,

I believe Khojat Ji has stated that he is a seeker just like you are and he has genuine intentions to be in Sadh Sangat. Little did he know that he would be put into a corner like the Brahmins did with Bhagat Namdev. 

I ask for Khojat Ji's forgiveness if I or/and any other member has hurt his feelings.

~ namjap ~


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



lalihayer said:


> Yes, these are swaiyas in praise of Guru Nanak. While praising guru, he is even called avatar of Lord himself. Read whole shabad, not selected tuks to prove your points. SGGS is collections of banis of gurus and bhagats written at different times and in different contexts. You can take tuk from here and there and prove anything.
> 
> Would you read mool mantar again please. If Guru Nanak was Lord himself, what stopped Guru Nanak from telling the truth that he is Lord Creator himself? Instead he said 'Gur Prasad'.



Respected Lalihayer ji,

I can see the labour that you have put in and i do appreciate your predicament .I had started this thread and now repent as to why I did. You can trace back from the original post# 1. With in the  10 post or so you will find the answer.

After putting in the labor I could not get the message through. I have now withdrawn because one shall now explain what is 'swayee' and what is the meaning  and then end up in unending argument. 

I wish you don't end up like me. I had started posting articles in this thread. I have now no intention to carry on further  when there are so many obstructions. 

You may kindly carry on.


Regards


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Incidentally , I have to point out that the name of the thread that i had posted was :

" Is it so.." 

i.e. can Guru Nanak be the Lord. 
The name of the thread was, after some time, changed by the Moderators without any prior intimation.

Sikh80 Ji,

Is this title better ?
Is Nanak the Guru ? Is Nanak the Lord Himself ?

Changing the title to anything else will confuse the Search Engines. Let Aman Ji speak his views on technicalities. It was Aman Ji who changed your title from "Is it so...."

~ namjap ~


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Originally Quoted by Khojat,*
*The Sat Guru is the Essence of God for he is totally imbued with God's presences and Spirit. The Sat Guru ahs all Spiritual and Temporal Power adn can Command all of the Heavens and the Nether Worlds. Be the Sat Guru in the form of Ram, Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Nanak and all his forms past, present and future, he is still a created being, made of flesh and born of woman. The repository of Divine Light, The Knower of God.*

Khojat Ji,

I don't know how other religions perceive this statement but the understanding in Sikhism is - from above to below. 

Page 722, Line 16
ਜੈਸੀ ਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਖਸਮ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤੈਸੜਾ ਕਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
Jaisī mai āvai kẖasam kī baṇī ṯaisṛā karī gi&shy;ān vė lālo.
As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok



We need to see or try to perceive Nanak's teachings from his God-consciousness level. Difficult but not un-attainable because Gurbani was written to show us the path.

On the other hand, if we view the teachings of Gurbani we find that *Bani is Guru*. *Guru is Bani*. Many people are often confused what Bani is. 
Page 935, Line 13
ਇਹ ਬਾਣੀ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੀ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੪੦॥
We are all eager to find concepts (mind stuff) which should conform to our ego. Having to face with this hurdle, yet there's a driving force within us that never gives up, holding a genuine quest for everlasting happiness centered inside our hearts. 

The *concepts of Bani* and _*True Bani*_ are different things. The ego of man can only grasp the concepts. *Only Soul can experience real bani. That's because bani is too subtle a vibration to be grasped by mind.* This is how Sikhism differs from definitions expressed in other religions about Guru/Savior/Prophet, etc.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

aad002 ji​*aasaa mehlaa 5. * *ang [ I am unable to quote but this appears on pages 450-456, I can post if required.]   * 


slok ]  *Shalok: * *salok. *

audmu krhu vfBwgIho ismrhu hir      hir rwie ]  
* Make the effort, O very fortunate ones, and meditate on the Lord, the      Lord King. * 
nwnk ijsu ismrq sB suK hovih dUKu      drdu BRmu jwie ]1]  *O Nanak, remembering Him in meditation, you shall obtain total peace,      and your pains and troubles and doubts shall depart. ||1||*​
This is the Bani of Guru maharaaj  Arjan dev ji where he is stating to  meditate on the Lord. Had that you have stated been correct, would he not have asked to Meditate upon Guru nanak ji. Then there would have no need of The entire Granth sahib being compiled as the God was known and so was HIS naam i.e Guru Nanak.

1.Yes, you may also answer that Lalihayer ji has stated. i.e why Guru nanak dev ji had authored Mool Mantra ,the jaap of which you must be doing , that states the attributes of Lord.

Is Nanak ji giving his attributes.?

2.Why has Nanak dev ji authored jap ji sahib?. For his own eulogisation. Kindly clarigy.

3. Why Guru nanak dev ji state at many places in Granth Sahib that he has been blessed with naam. 
Is he saying that he has been blessed by himself?

Kindly reply after giving a very careful and considerate thought and do not try to distort the gurbani and the established meanings that we are used to. 

Also note Sikhi is against incarnation of God. Unless you want to change the sikh philosphy you  will have to answer to the God for misinterpretation  and misguiding the readers. Is the Bani of Guru sahibs more important than the bani of the Poets who always sing the praise and use many metaphors.? There has to be a subtle difference.

At many places in Granth sahib it has been stated that His devotees are Lord. Will it mean that we all are Lord? Looks funny.

Kindly reply if you wish and your conscience permits and mind is able to rationalise else ignore this post as no reply is needed to all the questions posed. We all have the answers with us.

We are all learners.



Bhul Chuk Mauf​


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



namjap said:


> Sardara Ji and Pyramid Ji,
> 
> I believe Khojat Ji has stated that he is a seeker just like you are and he has genuine intentions to be in Sadh Sangat. Little did he know that he would be put into a corner like the Brahmins did with Bhagat Namdev.
> 
> I ask for Khojat Ji's forgiveness if I or/and any other member has hurt his feelings.
> 
> ~ namjap ~


 
Namjap Ji, 

Khojat Ji's Guru is limited, My Guru has NO LIMITS. 

I have no intention to put anybody in a corner. Guru is everywhere, taking care of ALL, including him.

Bhagat NaamDev's Guru is not just A BODY, an FYI.
and Bhagat Naam Dev himself is not a just a human body either, another FYI.  

Good Luck.


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



lalihayer said:


> Sadh Sangat jio,
> No doubt, Guru Nanak became one with Lord, but he was a human.
> If Guru Nanak was lord himself, why he didn't say in mool mantra. Guru Nanak should have plainly said "I am God".


 
Lilihayer Jio,

Guru is telling us: Paarbrahm Gur Naahee Bhed, (there is no distinction between Guru and God).

Thankyou for revealing your Guru- 'human'  in your very first post. 

MY Guru is not limited to 'HUMAN'. He is ALL, ENDLESS, PERMEATING EVERYWHERE .

Thanks  and Good Luck

Guru Kirpa.


----------



## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



namjap said:


> I believe Khojat Ji has stated that he is a seeker just like you are and he has genuine intentions to be in Sadh Sangat. Little did he know that he would be put into a corner like the Brahmins did with Bhagat Namdev.


 
Namjap Ji,

In my understanding Bhagat Namdev was not put into a corner, Brahmins thought that they have put him in a corner.

They thought that they can corner the infinite, too bad, it cant be put in a corner.

Namdev is still living. He is talking to us all the time, everywhere.


----------



## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



lalihayer said:


> Sadh Sangat jio,
> No doubt, Guru Nanak became one with Lord, but he was a human.
> If Guru Nanak was lord himself, why he didn't say in mool mantra. Guru Nanak should have plainly said "I am God".
> 
> So how long before we sikhs will start praying Guru Nank as incarnation of God? Tenth Master gave us SGGS for directions. We ignore mool mantra and try our best to find some tuks (where Guru is compared to God) to prove Nanak was God himself.
> 
> I was thinking of few centuries (time it took christians to start worshiping Jesus as God), but now I think it will take only few decades to become another sect of hinduism worshipping blindly god Nanak and ignoring shabad guru. Soon some people will start saying that like Jesus he was born to a virgin .
> 
> Bhul chuk maaf. I didn't have time to read whole thread. I am posting after reading thread heading 'Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is Lord Himself'.


 
Lalihayer Ji, 

I have no problem with what you believe. Be happy with what you believe in. Please dont think that I have some agenda against you or any other person who believe in: Guru cant be God. Good Luck with your belief.



The term 'Guru' is described very many ways in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the reason being is - Guru is infinite, One cant point to just one line and say that- why Guru didn't say this here, why He said this here. Believe in one, and disbelieve in the other. This attitude is not bhagti. A bhagat believs in each and every WORD of his her GURU, Bhagat bows in front of Guru. And let the Guru take care of the rest. Bhagat sings every word of His Her Guru. 

A common saying is: Je Guru Kahe din ta din, Je Guru Kahe Raat ta Raat.
(If guru says it is day, it is day. If Guru says it is night, it is night). Bhagat doesnt look for : is it day or night, he she look for What Guru says. One has to leave his her own understanding out of the way. Bhagti is complete surrender. If I sing opposite to what Guru is singing: I will be acting as a Manmukh. 

And Guru is saying Gur Parmesar Eko Jaan, Gur Parmesar Naahi Bhed, Brahmgyani sarisht Ka Karta.(Understand that Guru and God are ONE, There is no distinction between Guru and God, God Oriented is the Creator of the Universe).

Guru Granth Sahib Ji's EVERY LINE IS GURU. 

This Question: Why Guru didnt add a literal line-"I am God"; but said that "Guru is God". 

To me moor, it teaches me to be utmost humble, don't boast of any achievements. If one is reading Gurbani carefully, can find this: If some one calls himself or herself a 'GURU' - cant be a Guru, beware of such a person.

Humilty and considering one self the lowest: is the recognition of a Saintly soul. apas ko jo jaaney neecha soi ganeeay sabh te oocha(the one who consider himself herself the lowest, is the highest of all).

Thanks a lot for bringing me moor close to Guru Ji.


----------



## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Have read the whole shabad. The link is there for other to read as well. 

He merges His light. That is all.


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



namjap said:


> Sardara Ji and Pyramid Ji,
> 
> I believe Khojat Ji has stated that he is a seeker just like you are and he has genuine intentions to be in Sadh Sangat. Little did he know that he would be put into a corner like the Brahmins did with Bhagat Namdev.
> 
> I ask for Khojat Ji's forgiveness if I or/and any other member has hurt his feelings.
> 
> ~ namjap ~


 
Namjap Ji,

Thanks for placing another allegation on me. Hopefully he/she isn't hurt much.***************************************** 
Mere baaki di sajaa vi suna deo, Kirpa karke.(please announce the rest of my punishment as well) gulaam hajar hai(slave is ready).

nechan to vi neech 
Tuhada Das
Yograj.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Dear Ambardhara and Sardara ji,

All that you have quoted is from Gurbani and is not put to question at all. I think all that we looking into is to know whether Guru ji HIMSELF was 'waheguru'. Intellectualization shall not help us much. The things are to be seen in the perspective of sikhism and its philosphy. I may give scores of reasons and you may give scores of reasons to justify the stands that we have taken. It would be meaningless now as it shall lead to avoidable pains and anguish only and nothing else. It appears that both of us have taken it an issue. But we are all answerable to the Almighty and the Guru sahibaan either today or tomorrow.

You would agree that we have earned a lot of bitterness by entering into the controversy and instead of learning we are wasting our time and energy on this topic. I have not done my Nitnem for some time. Atleast, I am not at peace.

I would request that we should halt for sometime. Let us be at peace for sometime. Let this be taken care of someone who is senior to us and have well integrated concepts of the Granth sahib.
I do not have wide exposure to bani.  I have quoted all that I had to and probably you have also done the same.

Prudence suggests that let it be answered by some one who has full understanding of the sikhism and its principles along with the knowledge of full bani. Bani has not to be literally interpreted. If we interpret bani as 'dhur ke bani' in literal fashion there would be many things that will not stand to this logic.

We may take rest for sometime and then proceed with caution. All of us are doing a damage to the institution of sikhi that is acclaimed over the world and even many non-sikhs are adopting this faith for some reasons.

After all that we are doing here or trying to do here is to learn. All those who visit the site are lover of GOD. None is better sikh than another.

Kindly cool your self and forgive me for this post as well. Leave it to the providence and we shall jointly arrive at the answer that should be correct.


Humbly.


Sorry for mistakes.


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



AmbarDhara said:


> The term 'Guru' is described very many ways in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the reason being is - Guru is infinite, One cant point to just one line and say that- why Guru didn't say this here, why He said this here. Believe in one, and disbelieve in the other. This attitude is not bhagti. A bhagat believs in each and every WORD of his her GURU, Bhagat bows in front of Guru. And let the Guru take care of the rest. Bhagat sings every word of His Her Guru.
> 
> A common saying is: Je Guru Kahe din ta din, Je Guru Kahe Raat ta Raat.
> (If guru says it is day, it is day. If Guru says it is night, it is night). Bhagat doesnt look for : is it day or night, he she look for What Guru says. One has to leave his her own understanding out of the way. Bhagti is complete surrender. If I sing opposite to what Guru is singing: I will be acting as a Manmukh.
> 
> And Guru is saying Gur Parmesar Eko Jaan, Gur Parmesar Naahi Bhed, Brahmgyani sarisht Ka Karta.(Understand that Guru and God are ONE, There is no distinction between Guru and God, God Oriented is the Creator of the Universe).
> 
> Guru Granth Sahib Ji's EVERY LINE IS GURU.
> 
> This Question: Why Guru didnt add a literal line-"I am God"; but said that "Guru is God".
> 
> To me moor, it teaches me to be utmost humble, don't boast of any achievements. If one is reading Gurbani carefully, can find this: If some one calls himself or herself a 'GURU' - cant be a Guru, beware of such a person.
> 
> Humilty and considering one self the lowest: is the recognition of a Saintly soul. apas ko jo jaaney neecha soi ganeeay sabh te oocha(the one who consider himself herself the lowest, is the highest of all).
> 
> Thanks a lot for bringing me moor close to Guru Ji.


 
Thanks a lot for clarifying humility part and bringing all of us closer to Guru Ji.
Thanks again

you are reminding me of the Shabad:
Har kia kathaa kahaneeya gurmeet sunaaeeaa.

Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## pk70

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sikh 80
Do not feel bad.
People have the right to have their own opinion. Sikhism Starts with mool mantra and keep sticking to it. If some take it personal and have turned judgemental, leave to Waheguru. Gurbani vichar is to understand Guru bachan in its totality.
You have done a wonderful job, please keep  it up.


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



aad0002 said:


> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji age 1389:SearchGurbani.com
> 
> We find in Guruji, these words:
> 
> ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੩॥
> kab kal sujas gaavo gur naanak raaj jog jin maaniou ||3||
> KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||3||
> 
> 
> ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਪਿਲਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਰੋ ॥
> gaavehi kapilaadh aadh jogaesur aparanpar avathaar varo ||
> Kapila and the other Yogis sing of Guru Nanak. He is the Avataar, the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord.


 
Aad0002 Ji,

Thanks for all of your wonderful posts.
Gurbani answers every question of everybody. It is our Guru, Guru of the whole human race. 

Tuhada Das
Yograj

Tuhada Das


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sikh80 said:


> Dear Ambardhara and Sardara ji,
> 
> All that you have quoted is from Gurbani and is not put to question at all. I think all that we looking into is to know whether Guru ji HIMSELF was 'waheguru'. Intellectualization shall not help us much. The things are to be seen in the perspective of sikhism and its philosphy. I may give scores of reasons and you may give scores of reasons to justify the stands that we have taken. It would be meaningless now as it shall lead to avoidable pains and anguish only and nothing else. It appears that both of us have taken it an issue. But we are all answerable to the Almighty and the Guru sahibaan either today or tomorrow.
> 
> You would agree that we have earned a lot of bitterness by entering into the controversy and instead of learning we are wasting our time and energy on this topic. I have not done my Nitnem for some time. Atleast, I am not at peace.
> 
> I would request that we should halt for sometime. Let us be at peace for sometime. Let this be taken care of someone who is senior to us and have well integrated concepts of the Granth sahib.
> I do not have wide exposure to bani. I have quoted all that I had to and probably you have also done the same.
> 
> Prudence suggests that let it be answered by some one who has full understanding of the sikhism and its principles along with the knowledge of full bani. Bani has not to be literally interpreted. If we interpret bani as 'dhur ke bani' in literal fashion there would be many things that will not stand to this logic.
> 
> We may take rest for sometime and then proceed with caution. All of us are doing a damage to the institution of sikhi that is acclaimed over the world and even many non-sikhs are adopting this faith for some reasons.
> 
> After all that we are doing here or trying to do here is to learn. All those who visit the site are lover of GOD. None is better sikh than another.
> 
> Kindly cool your self and forgive me for this post as well. Leave it to the providence and we shall jointly arrive at the answer that should be correct.
> 
> 
> Humbly.
> 
> 
> Sorry for mistakes.


 
Mr./Mrs./Ms. SIKH80 Ji,

As far as I remember, I haven't said anything to you or anything to hurt your HONOR, DID I?

If I did, please please please forgive me. I touch your feet Ji, Please Please Please forgive me.

If you remember, In the past I have made it clear that I have nothing to say to you. 
Your path is clear: creating Own Concepts.

My path is clear: Guru has already created path(concepts) for me, I have to walk it with His Blessings.

So we can't disscuss anything, both paths are in opposite direction to each other.

I am seeking others who have the same kind of path as I have, with a purpose to do SatSang with them, so I ask questions to others, any time I feel the hope.

Very very very sorry for posting anything that hurt you. 

From now on everytime I post in a thread you start : I will ask for your permission to post, alright.

Happy now. 

SORRY SORRY SORRY VERY SORRY FOR HURTING YOU. I HAD NO IDEA THAT YOU ARE THIS MUCH TROUBLED WITH MY FAITH. I CANT CHANGE MY FAITH, I AM SORRY FOR THAT TOO. I NEVER ASKED YOU OR ANY OTHERS TO CHANGE THEIR FAITH EITHER. NEITHER I HAVE TOLD YOU OR OTHERS TO TAKE PAUSE OR STOP WALKING THEIR OWN PATH.

I am not at WAR- already filled with peace -Guru Shabad is taking care of everything.

I am cool enough, thankyou for the warning though. For me neech sardara123, 'Guru is correct'. I dont need any corrections from anybody in Guru's Word. There is no distinction between Guru and God. Guru Nanak Dev Ji is Hari-Parmatama-Waheguru Hiself.


----------



## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Another moderator's perspective on this. As long as no one is being hostile and disrespects another in the form of insults, no one needs permission from the thread starter to post something.

The entire notion of a forum is discussion. I am no stranger to irritation when others post things that change the direction of threads that I start. But it is in the nature of intelligent people to want to discuss spiritual matters. We want to hear what others have to say. We are not personally harmed when someone disagrees. 

Let's take it from here.


----------



## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sikh80 said:


> Dear Ambardhara and Sardara ji,
> 
> All that you have quoted is from Gurbani and is not put to question at all. I think all that we looking into is to know whether Guru ji HIMSELF was 'waheguru'. Intellectualization shall not help us much. The things are to be seen in the perspective of sikhism and its philosphy. I may give scores of reasons and you may give scores of reasons to justify the stands that we have taken. It would be meaningless now as it shall lead to avoidable pains and anguish only and nothing else. It appears that both of us have taken it an issue. But we are all answerable to the Almighty and the Guru sahibaan either today or tomorrow.
> 
> You would agree that we have earned a lot of bitterness by entering into the controversy and instead of learning we are wasting our time and energy on this topic. I have not done my Nitnem for some time. Atleast, I am not at peace.
> 
> I would request that we should halt for sometime. Let us be at peace for sometime. Let this be taken care of someone who is senior to us and have well integrated concepts of the Granth sahib.
> I do not have wide exposure to bani. I have quoted all that I had to and probably you have also done the same.
> 
> Prudence suggests that let it be answered by some one who has full understanding of the sikhism and its principles along with the knowledge of full bani. Bani has not to be literally interpreted. If we interpret bani as 'dhur ke bani' in literal fashion there would be many things that will not stand to this logic.
> 
> We may take rest for sometime and then proceed with caution. All of us are doing a damage to the institution of sikhi that is acclaimed over the world and even many non-sikhs are adopting this faith for some reasons.
> 
> After all that we are doing here or trying to do here is to learn. All those who visit the site are lover of GOD. None is better sikh than another.
> 
> Kindly cool your self and forgive me for this post as well. Leave it to the providence and we shall jointly arrive at the answer that should be correct.
> 
> 
> Humbly.
> 
> 
> Sorry for mistakes.


 
Sikh80 Ji 

First of all, I have not evaluated Sikhs. If you read every positive comment as neagative- it is Waheguru's Wish.

 We are learning from the 'WORD OF GOD'- Gurbani. THE DIVINE PROVIDENCE. No one has any capacity to hurt the divine providence. We can either follow it, not follow it, question it, accept it- All is happening under His Grace: The Creator,Provider,Care Taker,God, Guru.

He Himself guide us to walk the path, to take rest or forget the path. Mortals cant be the guides, only immortal God/Guru can be a guide. 

Gurbani Kahe Sevak Jan Maaney.

I am not angree at all, I was never angree, as you are mentioning me to cool down. Guru is protecting all the way, providing needed coolness. 

I simply truly shared the Word Of God with fellow brothers and sisters. I have no intentions whatsoever to make others stop walking their paths. 

Gurbani is SarbSanjhi(for every one). 

Gurbani has the correct answer for me moor paapi, I dont need to change that to be in sink with others. 

Thanks


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



aad0002 said:


> Another moderator's perspective on this. As long as no one is being hostile and disrespects another in the form of insults, no one needs permission from the thread starter to post something.
> 
> The entire notion of a forum is discussion. I am no stranger to irritation when others post things that change the direction of threads that I start. But it is in the nature of intelligent people to want to discuss spiritual matters. We want to hear what others have to say. We are not personally harmed when someone disagrees.
> 
> Let's take it from here.


 
Thanks Aad Ji.


----------



## Khojat

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Dear Sikh80,

Never apologise for seeking clarity and understanding. This is the cornerstone of our Faith. We have to seek and contemplate constantly.

I have a few more references from the SGGS JI on the issue of the 14 worlds. Kindly take note;

Siree Raag Bani of Beni Ji (Pg 94) ll3ll

" Your hair is whiter than the Jasmine flowers and your voice is grown feeble, as if it comes form the seventh underworld".

First Mehl (Pg 144) ll2ll

" Neither the just nor the generous, nor any humans at all, nor the seven realms beneath the earth shall remain".

There are other references but the above will suffice to reinforce the concept.

Hope you continue to seekout the Bani and its meaning.

GurFathe!




Sikh80 said:


> Respected Khojat ji,
> 
> I thank you once again for a wonderful and instructive post. My knowledge is fairly limited and I shall not speculate again on the meanings that are fairly established and are reflected in your post as well. I have checked up again in the Teeka of Dr. sahib singh ji and all that you stated is correct.
> 
> Gurus are embodiment of the almighty.
> 
> 
> Thanks and regards for sparing time.


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Khojat Ji,

We're all learning from each others' presence. With your Gurbani references given, thing become clear in the mind. Thank you.


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sardara123 said:


> Mr./Mrs./Ms. SIKH80 Ji,
> 
> As far as I remember, I haven't said anything to you or anything to hurt your HONOR, DID I?
> 
> If I did, please please please forgive me. I touch your feet Ji, Please Please Please forgive me.
> 
> If you remember, In the past I have made it clear that I have nothing to say to you.
> Your path is clear: creating Own Concepts.
> 
> My path is clear: Guru has already created path(concepts) for me, I have to walk it with His Blessings.
> 
> So we can't disscuss anything, both paths are in opposite direction to each other.
> 
> I am seeking others who have the same kind of path as I have, with a purpose to do SatSang with them, so I ask questions to others, any time I feel the hope.
> 
> Very very very sorry for posting anything that hurt you.
> 
> From now on everytime I post in a thread you start : I will ask for your permission to post, alright.
> 
> Happy now.
> 
> SORRY SORRY SORRY VERY SORRY FOR HURTING YOU. *I HAD NO IDEA THAT YOU ARE THIS MUCH TROUBLED WITH MY FAITH. *I CANT CHANGE MY FAITH, I AM SORRY FOR THAT TOO. I NEVER ASKED YOU OR ANY OTHERS TO CHANGE THEIR FAITH EITHER. *NEITHER I HAVE TOLD YOU OR OTHERS TO TAKE PAUSE OR STOP WALKING THEIR OWN PATH.*
> 
> I am not at WAR- already filled with peace -*Guru Shabad is taking care of everything.*
> 
> *I am cool enough, thankyou for the warning though*. For me neech sardara123, 'Guru is correct'. I dont need any corrections from anybody in Guru's Word. There is no distinction between Guru and God. Guru Nanak Dev Ji is Hari-Parmatama-Waheguru Hiself.


 
Sardara Ji,

Tusi kyu chinta karde o
God is everywhere. Keep your cool and calmness. We are all learning from each other's presence. 

The Moderators have already been informed about your latest thread(s). 

Nanak Chinta Mat Karo.
Click here > Unknown - Nanak Chinta Mat Karo


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Oh, I thought my computer was messing UP.

Thankyou Ji.


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Actually I have told him to go ahead and delete whatever he wants: may he get some satisfaction out of it.

Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sardara123, 
Please give your name- I can tell, this is not your real name, PM me.

I like to be at a place where peopl dont like me- That is the best learning environment. They will try their best to make you run away, and will abuse you to the Max. And I am a pressure player.

Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Pyramid said:


> Actually I have told him to go ahead and delete whatever he wants: may he get some satisfaction out of it.
> 
> Tuhada Das
> Yograj


 
Good.


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



AmbarDhara said:


> We are learning from the 'WORD OF GOD'- Gurbani. THE DIVINE PROVIDENCE. No one has any capacity to hurt the divine providence. We can either follow it, not follow it, question it, accept it- All is happening under His Grace: The Creator,Provider,Care Taker,God, Guru.
> 
> He Himself guide us to walk the path, to take rest or forget the path. Mortals cant be the guides, only immortal God/Guru can be a guide.
> 
> Gurbani Kahe Sevak Jan Maaney.
> 
> ****
> Gurbani is SarbSanjhi(for every one).
> 
> Gurbani has the correct answer for me moor paapi, I dont need to change that to be in sink with others.


 
Ambar Ji,

Good as always .



ਤਿਲੰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ 
thilang mehalaa 4 ||
Tilang, Fourth Mehl:


ਹਰਿ ਕੀਆ ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਗੁਰਿ ਮੀਤਿ ਸੁਣਾਈਆ ॥ 
har keeaa kathhaa kehaaneeaa gur meeth sunaaeeaa ||
The Guru, my friend, has told me the stories and the sermon of the Lord.


ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਗੁਰ ਕਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈਆ ॥੧॥ 
balihaaree gur aapanae gur ko bal jaaeeaa ||1||
I am a sacrifice to my Guru; to the Guru, I am a sacrifice. ||1||


ਆਇ ਮਿਲੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਆਇ ਮਿਲੁ ਤੂ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
aae mil gurasikh aae mil thoo maerae guroo kae piaarae || rehaao ||
Come, join with me, O Sikh of the Guru, come and join with me. You are my Guru's Beloved. ||Pause||

Source of Shabad: SearchGurbani.Com


Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Pyramid Ji,

Dhan Guru Amar Das Ji's words:

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar
Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi
ANG 30
SGGS JI
SATGURU PRASAAD​ 
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥ 
sireeraag mehalaa 3 ||
Siree Raag, Third Mehl:


ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
thrai gun maaeiaa mohu hai guramukh chouthhaa padh paae ||
The three qualities hold people in attachment to Maya. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness.


ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਮੇਲਾਇਅਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥ 
kar kirapaa maelaaeian har naam vasiaa man aae ||
Granting His Grace, God unites us with Himself. The Name of the Lord comes to abide within the mind.


ਪੋਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਹੈ ਤਿਨ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਮੇਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ 
pothai jin kai punn hai thin sathasangath maelaae ||1||
Those who have the treasure of goodness join the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation. ||1||


ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਚਿ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
bhaaee rae guramath saach rehaao ||
O Siblings of Destiny, follow the Guru's Teachings and dwell in truth.


ਸਾਚੋ ਸਾਚੁ ਕਮਾਵਣਾ ਸਾਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
saacho saach kamaavanaa saachai sabadh milaao ||1|| rehaao ||
Practice truth, and only truth, and merge in the True Word of the Shabad. ||1||Pause||


ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥ 
jinee naam pashhaaniaa thin vittahu bal jaao ||
I am a sacrifice to those who recognize the Naam, the Name of the Lord.


ਆਪੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਗਾ ਚਲਾ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਭਾਇ ॥ 
aap shhodd charanee lagaa chalaa thin kai bhaae ||
Renouncing selfishness, I fall at their feet, and walk in harmony with His Will.


ਲਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਹਜੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥ 
laahaa har har naam milai sehajae naam samaae ||2||
Earning the Profit of the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, I am intuitively absorbed in the Naam. ||2||


ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਮਹਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
bin gur mehal n paaeeai naam n paraapath hoe ||
Without the Guru, the Mansion of the Lord's Presence is not found, and the Naam is not obtained.


ਐਸਾ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਲੋੜਿ ਲਹੁ ਜਿਦੂ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥ 
aisaa sathagur lorr lahu jidhoo paaeeai sach soe ||
Seek and find such a True Guru, who shall lead you to the True Lord.


ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ ਸੁਖਿ ਵਸੈ ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥ 
asur sanghaarai sukh vasai jo this bhaavai s hoe ||3||
Destroy your evil passions, and you shall dwell in peace. Whatever pleases the Lord comes to pass. ||3||


ਜੇਹਾ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਤੇਹੋ ਜੇਹਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
jaehaa sathagur kar jaaniaa thaeho jaehaa sukh hoe ||
As one knows the True Guru, so is the peace obtained.


ਏਹੁ ਸਹਸਾ ਮੂਲੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਭਾਉ ਲਾਏ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
eaehu sehasaa moolae naahee bhaao laaeae jan koe ||
There is no doubt at all about this, but those who love Him are very rare.


ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੪੪॥ 
naanak eaek joth dhue moorathee sabadh milaavaa hoe ||4||11||44||
O Nanak, the One Light has two forms; through the Shabad, union is attained. ||4||11||44||​ 
Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan
Gurbani har alakh lakhiayaa
Gurbani Gavo Bhaee
charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o
​*Light merges in Light(itself). *
*Maya has created the illussion of two forms, where it was only One light. Through Shabad the Union-Oneness is obtained. So O mind, leave the sense of duality.*​​


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



AmbarDhara said:


> Pyramid Ji,
> 
> Dhan Guru Amar Das Ji's words:
> 
> Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar
> Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi
> ANG 30
> SGGS JI
> SATGURU PRASAAD​
> ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
> sireeraag mehalaa 3 ||
> Siree Raag, Third Mehl:​
> 
> ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥
> thrai gun maaeiaa mohu hai guramukh chouthhaa padh paae ||
> The three qualities hold people in attachment to Maya. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness.​
> 
> ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਮੇਲਾਇਅਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥
> kar kirapaa maelaaeian har naam vasiaa man aae ||
> Granting His Grace, God unites us with Himself. The Name of the Lord comes to abide within the mind.​
> 
> ਪੋਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਹੈ ਤਿਨ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਮੇਲਾਇ ॥੧॥
> pothai jin kai punn hai thin sathasangath maelaae ||1||
> Those who have the treasure of goodness join the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation. ||1||​
> 
> ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਚਿ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> bhaaee rae guramath saach rehaao ||
> O Siblings of Destiny, follow the Guru's Teachings and dwell in truth.​
> 
> ਸਾਚੋ ਸਾਚੁ ਕਮਾਵਣਾ ਸਾਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> saacho saach kamaavanaa saachai sabadh milaao ||1|| rehaao ||
> Practice truth, and only truth, and merge in the True Word of the Shabad. ||1||Pause||​
> 
> ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥
> jinee naam pashhaaniaa thin vittahu bal jaao ||
> I am a sacrifice to those who recognize the Naam, the Name of the Lord.​
> 
> ਆਪੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਗਾ ਚਲਾ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਭਾਇ ॥
> aap shhodd charanee lagaa chalaa thin kai bhaae ||
> Renouncing selfishness, I fall at their feet, and walk in harmony with His Will.​
> 
> ਲਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਹਜੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
> laahaa har har naam milai sehajae naam samaae ||2||
> Earning the Profit of the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, I am intuitively absorbed in the Naam. ||2||​
> 
> ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਮਹਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
> bin gur mehal n paaeeai naam n paraapath hoe ||
> Without the Guru, the Mansion of the Lord's Presence is not found, and the Naam is not obtained.​
> 
> ਐਸਾ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਲੋੜਿ ਲਹੁ ਜਿਦੂ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥
> aisaa sathagur lorr lahu jidhoo paaeeai sach soe ||
> Seek and find such a True Guru, who shall lead you to the True Lord.​
> 
> ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ ਸੁਖਿ ਵਸੈ ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥
> asur sanghaarai sukh vasai jo this bhaavai s hoe ||3||
> Destroy your evil passions, and you shall dwell in peace. Whatever pleases the Lord comes to pass. ||3||​
> 
> ਜੇਹਾ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਤੇਹੋ ਜੇਹਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
> jaehaa sathagur kar jaaniaa thaeho jaehaa sukh hoe ||
> As one knows the True Guru, so is the peace obtained.​
> 
> ਏਹੁ ਸਹਸਾ ਮੂਲੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਭਾਉ ਲਾਏ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
> eaehu sehasaa moolae naahee bhaao laaeae jan koe ||
> There is no doubt at all about this, but those who love Him are very rare.​
> 
> ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੪੪॥
> naanak eaek joth dhue moorathee sabadh milaavaa hoe ||4||11||44||
> O Nanak, the One Light has two forms; through the Shabad, union is attained. ||4||11||44||​
> Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan
> Gurbani har alakh lakhiayaa
> Gurbani Gavo Bhaee
> charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​
> 
> *Light merges in Light(itself). *
> *Maya has created the illussion of two forms, where it was only One light. Through Shabad the Union-Oneness is obtained. So O mind, leave the sense of duality.*​


 
So it is.

Sargun, Nirgun- two forms.
But Same One Light.
Dont get attached to the Sargun(tri Gun).
Through the Word of God- Gurbani, sense of duality dies down with His Blessings, with the sense of Nothingness (I am not body/I am nothing/I am lowest of the lowly) the lotus of heart turns upwards and then the merger occurs. Amrit B{censored} Ram Ras Da katora sidhdhaa kar le ve bandeaa.

Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sardara123 said:


> Mr./Mrs./Ms. SIKH80 Ji,
> 
> As far as I remember, I haven't said anything to you or anything to hurt your HONOR, DID I?
> 
> If I did, please please please forgive me. I touch your feet Ji, Please Please Please forgive me.
> 
> If you remember, In the past I have made it clear that I have nothing to say to you.
> Your path is clear: creating Own Concepts.
> 
> My path is clear: Guru has already created path(concepts) for me, I have to walk it with His Blessings.
> 
> So we can't disscuss anything, both paths are in opposite direction to each other.
> 
> I am seeking others who have the same kind of path as I have, with a purpose to do SatSang with them, so I ask questions to others, any time I feel the hope.
> 
> Very very very sorry for posting anything that hurt you.
> 
> From now on everytime I post in a thread you start : I will ask for your permission to post, alright.
> 
> Happy now.
> 
> SORRY SORRY SORRY VERY SORRY FOR HURTING YOU. I HAD NO IDEA THAT YOU ARE THIS MUCH TROUBLED WITH MY FAITH. I CANT CHANGE MY FAITH, I AM SORRY FOR THAT TOO. I NEVER ASKED YOU OR ANY OTHERS TO CHANGE THEIR FAITH EITHER. NEITHER I HAVE TOLD YOU OR OTHERS TO TAKE PAUSE OR STOP WALKING THEIR OWN PATH.
> 
> I am not at WAR- already filled with peace -Guru Shabad is taking care of everything.
> 
> I am cool enough, thankyou for the warning though. For me neech sardara123, *'Guru is correct'. I dont need any corrections from anybody in Guru's Word. *There is no distinction between Guru and God. Guru Nanak Dev Ji is Hari-Parmatama-Waheguru Hiself.


 

Sardara123,

 Nobody can change the truth. Gurbani Sat Hai, No translations can change the meanings around. Same concepts are explained in the simplest as well as the toughest form of language. Same concept is being told again and again for complete clarification. So there is no way we misunderstand anything. 

Gurbani is for all, not just a few selected ones. Guru Ji started this mission for the whole humanity. Simple Straightforward way to be one with Ikoankaar.


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Khojat Ji,

Here are some references from Sri Granth about nether worlds. It would provide both you and me a more wholesome picture on how it appears in different shabads.
</B>Page 2, Line 17
*ਸੁਣਿਐ ਦੀਪ ਲੋਅ ਪਾਤਾਲ ॥*
Suṇi&shy;ai ḏīp lo&shy;a pāṯāl.
Listening-the oceans, the lands of the world and the nether regions of the underworld.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 5, Line 2
*ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਲਖ ਆਗਾਸਾ ਆਗਾਸ ॥*
Pāṯālā pāṯāl lakẖ āgāsā āgās.
There are nether worlds beneath nether worlds, and hundreds of thousands of heavenly worlds above.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 7, Line 11
*ਪਵਣ ਪਾਣੀ ਅਗਨੀ ਪਾਤਾਲ ॥*
Pavaṇ pāṇī agnī pāṯāl.
wind, water, fire and the nether regions -
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 62, Line 2
*ਆਕਾਸੀ ਪਾਤਾਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥*
Akāsī pāṯāl ṯūŉ ṯaribẖavaṇ rahi&shy;ā samā&shy;ė.
You are pervading throughout the Akaashic Ethers, the nether regions and the three worlds.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 71, Line 15
*ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਮਛਿ ਪਇਆਲਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥*
Ŧėrā anṯ na pā&shy;i&shy;ā surag macẖẖ pa&shy;i&shy;āl jī&shy;o. ||1||
Your limits are not known to any of the beings in the heavens, in this world, or in the nether regions of the underworld. ||1||
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 74, Line 7
*ਤੂੰ ਦੀਪ ਲੋਅ ਪਇਆਲਿਆ ॥*
Ŧūŉ ḏīp lo&shy;a pa&shy;i&shy;āli&shy;ā.
You pervade the continents, the worlds and the nether regions;
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 126, Line 5
*ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਧਰਤੀ ਧਉਲੁ ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ॥*
Gẖar meh ḏẖarṯī ḏẖa&shy;ul pāṯālā.
Within the home of the self is the earth, its support and the nether regions of the underworld.
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 139, Line 10
*ਸੁਇਨੇ ਕੈ ਪਰਬਤਿ ਗੁਫਾ ਕਰੀ ਕੈ ਪਾਣੀ ਪਇਆਲਿ ॥*
Su&shy;inė kai parbaṯ gufā karī kai pāṇī pa&shy;i&shy;āl.
I may make a cave, in a mountain of gold, or in the water of the nether regions;
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 207, Line 5
*ਸੁਰਗ ਪਇਆਲ ਮਿਰਤ ਭੂਅ ਮੰਡਲ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਨੋ ਏਕੈ ਓਹੀ ॥*
Surag pa&shy;i&shy;āl miraṯ bẖū&shy;a mandal sarab samāno ėkai ohī.
In the heavenly paradise, in the nether regions of the underworld, on the planet earth and throughout the galaxies, the One Lord is pervading everywhere.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 227, Line 2
*ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਮਲੁ ਪਇਆਲਿ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥*
Barahm kamal pa&shy;i&shy;āl na pā&shy;i&shy;ā.
Brahma entered the lotus, and searched the nether regions, but he did not find the end of it.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 228, Line 18
*ਡੋਲੁ ਬਧਾ ਕਸਿ ਜੇਵਰੀ ਆਕਾਸਿ ਪਤਾਲਾ ॥੬॥*
Dol baḏẖā kas jėvrī ākās paṯālā. ||6||
Like the bucket tied to the rope in the well, you are pulled up to the Akaashic Ethers, and then lowered down to the nether regions of the underworld. ||6||
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 266, Line 2
*ਛੂਟਸਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਊਭ ਪਇਆਲਿ ॥*
Cẖẖūtas nāhī ūbẖ pa&shy;i&shy;āl.
You cannot escape to the heavens, or to the nether regions,
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 276, Line 5
*ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥*
Ka&shy;ī kot pāṯāl kė vāsī.
Many millions inhabit the nether regions.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 277, Line 14
*ਕਬਹੂ ਊਭ ਅਕਾਸ ਪਇਆਲ ॥*
Kabhū ūbẖ akās pa&shy;i&shy;āl.
Sometimes, they are high in the Akaashic Ethers, sometimes in the nether regions of the underworld.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 284, Line 12
*ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਆਗਾਸ ਪਾਤਾਲ ॥*
Nām kė ḏẖārė āgās pāṯāl.
The Naam is the Support of the Akaashic ethers and the nether regions.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 293, Line 19
*ਧਰਨਿ ਮਾਹਿ ਆਕਾਸ ਪਇਆਲ ॥*
Ḏẖaran māhi ākās pa&shy;i&shy;āl.
In the earth, in the Akaashic ethers, and in the nether regions of the underworld -
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 299, Line 17
*ਜਲ ਥਲ ਬਨ ਪਰਬਤ ਪਾਤਾਲ ॥*
Jal thal ban parbaṯ pāṯāl.
In the water, on the land, in the forests and mountains, and in the nether regions of the underworld,
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 344, Line 5
*ਅਰਧ ਉਰਧ ਬਿਚਿ ਸਮ ਪਹਿਚਾਣਿ ॥*
Araḏẖ uraḏẖ bicẖ sam pehcẖāṇ.
that you must recognize the Lord in the nether regions of the underworld as well as the heavens.
Devotee Kabir - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 347, Line 9
*ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਮੋਹਣੀਆ ਮਨੁ ਮੋਹਨਿ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਮਛੁ ਪਇਆਲੇ ॥*
Gāvniĥ ṯuḏẖno mohṇī&shy;ā man mohan surag macẖẖ pa&shy;i&shy;ālė.
The Mohinis, the heavenly beauties who entice the heart in paradise, in this world and in the nether regions, sing to You.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 374, Line 11
*ਊਚਾ ਚੜੈ ਸੁ ਪਵੈ ਪਇਆਲਾ ॥*
Ūcẖā cẖaṛai so pavai pa&shy;i&shy;ālā.
One who climbs high, shall fall into the nether regions of the underworld.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 381, Line 15
*ਪਾਤਾਲੀ ਆਕਾਸੀ ਸਖਨੀ ਲਹਬਰ ਬੂਝੀ ਖਾਈ ਰੇ ॥੧॥*
Pāṯālī ākāsī sakẖnī lahbar būjẖī kẖā&shy;ī rė. ||1||
The burning desire of the nether regions and the etheric realms is finally quenched and extinguished. ||1||
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 443, Line 14
*ਇਹੁ ਮਨੂਆ ਖਿਨੁ ਊਭ ਪਇਆਲੀ ਭਰਮਦਾ ਇਕਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਆਣੈ ਰਾਮ ॥*
Ih manū&shy;ā kẖin ūbẖ pā&shy;i&shy;ālī bẖarmaḏā ikaṯ gẖar āṇai rām.
One moment, this mind is in the heavens, and the next, it is in the nether regions; the Guru brings the wandering mind back to one-pointedness.
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 464, Line 5
*ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਪਾਤਾਲੀ ਆਕਾਸੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਰਬ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥*
Kuḏraṯ pāṯālī ākāsī kuḏraṯ sarab ākār.
By His Power the nether worlds exist, and the Akaashic ethers; by His Power the entire creation exists.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 503, Line 14
*ਮਹਾ ਗੰਭੀਰ ਪਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਬ ਜੁਆਇਆ ॥*
Mahā gambẖīr paṯar pāṯālā Nānak sarab ju&shy;ā&shy;i&shy;ā.
This lotus is very deep; its leaves are the nether regions, and it is connected to the whole universe.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 509, Line 2
*ਤਦਹੁ ਆਕਾਸੁ ਨ ਪਾਤਾਲੁ ਹੈ ਨਾ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਲੋਈ ॥*
Ŧaḏahu ākās na pāṯāl hai nā ṯarai lo&shy;ī.
At that time, there were no Akaashic Ethers, no nether regions, nor the three worlds.
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 540, Line 8
*ਧਰਤਿ ਪਾਤਾਲੁ ਆਕਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਮੇਰੀ ਜਿੰਦੁੜੀਏ ਸਭ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਰਾਮ ॥*
Ḏẖaraṯ pāṯāl ākās hai mėrī jinḏuṛī&shy;ė sabẖ har har nām ḏẖi&shy;āvai rām.
The earth, the nether regions of the underworld, and the Akaashic ethers, O my soul, all meditate on the Name of the Lord, Har, Har.
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 549, Line 15
*ਤੁਧੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ਮੈ ਕੋਈ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਤੁਧੁ ਸਭਸੈ ਨੋ ਦਾਨੁ ਦਿਤਾ ਖੰਡੀ ਵਰਭੰਡੀ ਪਾਤਾਲੀ ਪੁਰਈ ਸਭ ਲੋਈ ॥੩॥*
Ŧuḏẖ jėvad ḏāṯār mai ko&shy;ī naḏar na āvī ṯuḏẖ sabẖsai no ḏān ḏiṯā kẖandī varbẖandī pāṯālī pur&shy;ī sabẖ lo&shy;ī. ||3||
I see none as great as You, O Great Giver; You give in charity to the beings of all the continents, worlds, solar systems, nether regions and universes. ||3||
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 597, Line 18
*ਮਰਤ ਪਇਆਲ ਅਕਾਸੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਓ ਗੁਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰੀ ਜੀਉ ॥*
Maraṯ pa&shy;i&shy;āl akās ḏikẖā&shy;i&shy;o gur saṯgur kirpā ḏẖārī jī&shy;o.
In this world, in the nether regions of the underworld, and in the Akaashic Ethers, the Guru, the True Guru, has shown me the Lord; He has showered me with His Mercy.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 676, Line 4
*ਸੁਰਗ ਮਿਰਤ ਪਇਆਲ ਭੂ ਮੰਡਲ ਸਗਲ ਬਿਆਪੇ ਮਾਇ ॥*
Surag miraṯ pa&shy;i&shy;āl bẖū mandal sagal bi&shy;āpė mā&shy;ė.
Paradise, the earth, the nether regions of the underworld, and the globe of the world - all are engrossed in Maya.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/SalokPage 706, Line 3
*ਖੰਡ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਦੀਪ ਰਵਿਆ ਸਭ ਲੋਈ ॥*
Kẖand barahmand pāṯāl ḏīp ravi&shy;ā sabẖ lo&shy;ī.
He pervades the continents, solar systems, nether worlds, islands and all worlds.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Khojat said:


> Dear Sikh80,
> 
> Never apologise for seeking clarity and understanding. This is the cornerstone of our Faith. We have to seek and contemplate constantly.
> 
> I have a few more references from the SGGS JI on the issue of the 14 worlds. Kindly take note;
> 
> Siree Raag Bani of Beni Ji (Pg 94) ll3ll
> 
> " Your hair is whiter than the Jasmine flowers and your voice is grown feeble, as if it comes form the seventh underworld".
> 
> First Mehl (Pg 144) ll2ll
> 
> " Neither the just nor the generous, nor any humans at all, nor the seven realms beneath the earth shall remain".
> 
> There are other references but the above will suffice to reinforce the concept.
> 
> Hope you continue to seekout the Bani and its meaning.
> 
> GurFathe!


 

Sikh80 Ji and Khojat Ji,

There's no my path and your path. Only HIS path.


ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ 
सलोकु मः १ ॥ 
Salok mehlā 1. 
Shalok, First Mehl: 

ਸੀਹਾ ਬਾਜਾ ਚਰਗਾ ਕੁਹੀਆ ਏਨਾ ਖਵਾਲੇ ਘਾਹ ॥ 
सीहा बाजा चरगा कुहीआ एना खवाले घाह ॥ 
Sīhā bājā cẖargā kuhī&shy;ā ėnā kẖavālė gẖāh. 
Tigers, hawks, falcons and eagles-the Lord could make them eat grass. 

ਘਾਹੁ ਖਾਨਿ ਤਿਨਾ ਮਾਸੁ ਖਵਾਲੇ ਏਹਿ ਚਲਾਏ ਰਾਹ ॥ 
घाहु खानि तिना मासु खवाले एहि चलाए राह ॥ 
Gẖāhu kẖān ṯinā mās kẖavālė ėhi cẖalā&shy;ė rāh. 
And those animals which eat grass-He could make them eat meat. He could make them follow this way of life. 

ਨਦੀਆ ਵਿਚਿ ਟਿਬੇ ਦੇਖਾਲੇ ਥਲੀ ਕਰੇ ਅਸਗਾਹ ॥ 
नदीआ विचि टिबे देखाले थली करे असगाह ॥ 
Naḏī&shy;ā vicẖ tibė ḏėkẖālė thalī karė asgāh. 
He could raise dry land from the rivers, and turn the deserts into bottomless oceans. 

ਕੀੜਾ ਥਾਪਿ ਦੇਇ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ ਲਸਕਰ ਕਰੇ ਸੁਆਹ ॥ 
कीड़ा थापि देइ पातिसाही लसकर करे सुआह ॥ 
Kīṛā thāp ḏė&shy;ė pāṯisāhī laskar karė su&shy;āh. 
He could appoint a worm as king, and reduce an army to ashes. 

ਜੇਤੇ ਜੀਅ ਜੀਵਹਿ ਲੈ ਸਾਹਾ ਜੀਵਾਲੇ ਤਾ ਕਿ ਅਸਾਹ ॥ 
जेते जीअ जीवहि लै साहा जीवाले ता कि असाह ॥ 
Jėṯė jī&shy;a jīveh lai sāhā jīvālė ṯā ke asāh. 
All beings and creatures live by breathing, but He could keep us alive, even without the breath. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਸਚੇ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਦੇਇ ਗਿਰਾਹ ॥੧॥ 
नानक जिउ जिउ सचे भावै तिउ तिउ देइ गिराह ॥१॥ 
Nānak ji&shy;o ji&shy;o sacẖė bẖāvai ṯi&shy;o ṯi&shy;o ḏė&shy;ė girāh. ||1|| 
O Nanak, as it pleases the True Lord, He gives us sustenance. ||1||


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## pk70

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

namjap ji and khojat ji

You have done pretty resonable job. The only thing that I cannot comprehend is that if one has so strong faith in Guruji, how they get the courage to call others Nanmukh, people with hidden agenda and biased ! I never find any that kind of strong words used by those who are declared manmukh by these true belivers of Guru ji. I feel either this stand of theirs has become a prestige for them or their faith in Guru ji is superficial. Forgive Waheguru if I am wrong.


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## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Pk70 Ji,

No matter which verse/shabad of SGGS we take to understand, we will find that the message/goal is the same. Take a bite from any part of a candy bar and the taste is going to be sweet. SGGS links you with Naam/Shabad/Anhad Bani. That is our Guru. If our intention to come in sadh sangat is to follow Guru Ji, then our face is turned to the Guru. Gurmukh Rom Rom Har Dhiaveh.

If someone with a high level of intolerance calls you a Manmukh, that doesn't make you a Manmukh. He/she only speaks of his/her own short-comings. 

Similarly, if somebody who declares his path is the only path to God yet shows arrogance in his choice of words coupled with an exhibit of anger and revenge, it doesn't qualify him on the path of God regardless of which verse he quotes.

Sikhism is not a path of debate but one of Listening, Understanding and Putting into action. Socially we must live in some religion or other, but the real work must be done. Those who remain the mouthpiece of the senses, whose attention is scattered in outer attractions, remain manmukh, even though they may follow the Guru: they will never become gurumukh. Such people remain in ignorance of the real Truth and the wealth of Naam.


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## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



AmbarDhara said:


> Dhan Guru Amar Das Ji's words:
> 
> Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar
> Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi
> ANG 30
> SGGS JI
> SATGURU PRASAAD​
> ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
> sireeraag mehalaa 3 ||
> Siree Raag, Third Mehl:​
> 
> ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥
> thrai gun maaeiaa mohu hai guramukh chouthhaa padh paae ||
> The three qualities hold people in attachment to Maya. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness.​
> 
> ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਮੇਲਾਇਅਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥
> kar kirapaa maelaaeian har naam vasiaa man aae ||
> Granting His Grace, God unites us with Himself. The Name of the Lord comes to abide within the mind.​
> 
> ਪੋਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਹੈ ਤਿਨ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਮੇਲਾਇ ॥੧॥
> pothai jin kai punn hai thin sathasangath maelaae ||1||
> Those who have the treasure of goodness join the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation. ||1||​
> 
> ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਚਿ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> bhaaee rae guramath saach rehaao ||
> O Siblings of Destiny, follow the Guru's Teachings and dwell in truth.​
> 
> ਸਾਚੋ ਸਾਚੁ ਕਮਾਵਣਾ ਸਾਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> saacho saach kamaavanaa saachai sabadh milaao ||1|| rehaao ||
> Practice truth, and only truth, and merge in the True Word of the Shabad. ||1||Pause||​
> 
> ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥
> jinee naam pashhaaniaa thin vittahu bal jaao ||
> I am a sacrifice to those who recognize the Naam, the Name of the Lord.​
> 
> ਆਪੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਗਾ ਚਲਾ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਭਾਇ ॥
> aap shhodd charanee lagaa chalaa thin kai bhaae ||
> Renouncing selfishness, I fall at their feet, and walk in harmony with His Will.​
> 
> ਲਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਹਜੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
> laahaa har har naam milai sehajae naam samaae ||2||
> Earning the Profit of the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, I am intuitively absorbed in the Naam. ||2||​
> 
> ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਮਹਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
> bin gur mehal n paaeeai naam n paraapath hoe ||
> Without the Guru, the Mansion of the Lord's Presence is not found, and the Naam is not obtained.​
> 
> ਐਸਾ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਲੋੜਿ ਲਹੁ ਜਿਦੂ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥
> aisaa sathagur lorr lahu jidhoo paaeeai sach soe ||
> Seek and find such a True Guru, who shall lead you to the True Lord.​
> 
> ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ ਸੁਖਿ ਵਸੈ ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥
> asur sanghaarai sukh vasai jo this bhaavai s hoe ||3||
> Destroy your evil passions, and you shall dwell in peace. Whatever pleases the Lord comes to pass. ||3||​
> 
> ਜੇਹਾ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਤੇਹੋ ਜੇਹਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
> jaehaa sathagur kar jaaniaa thaeho jaehaa sukh hoe ||
> As one knows the True Guru, so is the peace obtained.​
> 
> ਏਹੁ ਸਹਸਾ ਮੂਲੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਭਾਉ ਲਾਏ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
> eaehu sehasaa moolae naahee bhaao laaeae jan koe ||
> There is no doubt at all about this, but those who love Him are very rare.​
> 
> ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੪੪॥
> naanak eaek joth dhue moorathee sabadh milaavaa hoe ||4||11||44||
> O Nanak, the One Light has two forms; through the Shabad, union is attained. ||4||11||44||​
> Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan
> Gurbani har alakh lakhiayaa
> Gurbani Gavo Bhaee
> charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​
> 
> *Light merges in Light(itself). *
> *Maya has created the illussion of two forms, where it was only One light. Through Shabad the Union-Oneness is obtained. So O mind, leave the sense of duality.*​


 

Guru Ji tells, If we know that there is only one which only happens with Gurprasad- all doubts are erased.

English Translation(source:SikhiToTheMax):
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
Aasaa, Third Mehl, Chhant, Third House:
O my beloved friend, dedicate yourself to the devotional worship of your Husband Lord.
Serve your Guru constantly, and obtain the wealth of the Naam.
Dedicate yourself to the worship of your Husband Lord; this is pleasing to your Beloved Husband.
If you walk in accordance with your own will, then your Husband Lord will not be pleased with you.
This path of loving devotional worship is very difficult; how rare are those who find it, through the Gurdwara, the Guru's Gate.
Says Nanak, that one, upon whom the Lord casts His Glance of Grace, links his consciousness to the worship of the Lord. ||1||
O my detached mind, unto whom do you show your detachment?
Those who sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord live in the joy of the Lord, forever and ever.
So become detached, and renounce hypocrisy; Your Husband Lord knows everything.
The One Lord is pervading the water, the land and the sky; the Gurmukh realizes the Command of His Will.
One who realizes the Lord's Command, obtains all peace and comforts.
Thus says Nanak: such a detached soul remains absorbed in the Lord's Love, day and night. ||2||
Wherever you wander, O my mind, the Lord is there with you.
Renounce your cleverness, O my mind, and reflect upon the Word of the Guru's Shabad.
Your Husband Lord is always with you, if you remember the Lord's Name, even for an instant.
The sins of countless incarnations shall be washed away, and in the end, you shall obtain the supreme status.
You shall be linked to the True Lord, and as Gurmukh, remember Him forever.
Thus says Nanak: wherever you go, O my mind, the Lord is there with you. ||3||
Meeting the True Guru, the wandering mind is held steady; it comes to abide in its own home.
It purchases the Naam, chants the Naam, and remains absorbed in the Naam.
The outgoing, wandering soul, upon meeting the True Guru, opens the Tenth Gate.
There, Ambrosial Nectar is food and the celestial music resounds; the world is held spell-bound by the music of the Word.
The many strains of the unstruck melody resound there, as one merges in Truth.
Thus says Nanak: by meeting the True Guru, the wandering soul becomes steady, and comes to dwell in the home of its own self. ||4||
O my mind, you are the embodiment of the Divine Light - recognize your own origin.
O my mind, the Dear Lord is with you; through the Guru's Teachings, enjoy His Love.
Acknowledge your origin, and then you shall know your Husband Lord, and so understand death and birth.
By Guru's Grace, know the One; then, you shall not love any other.
Peace comes to the mind, and gladness resounds; then, you shall be acclaimed.
Thus says Nanak: O my mind, you are the very image of the Luminous Lord; recognize the true origin of your self. ||5||
O mind, you are so full of pride; loaded with pride, you shall depart.
The fascinating Maya has fascinated you, over and over again, and lured you into reincarnation.
Clinging to pride, you shall depart, O foolish mind, and in the end, you shall regret and repent.
You are afflicted with the diseases of ego and desire, and you are wasting your life away in vain.
The foolish self-willed manmukh does not remember the Lord, and shall regret and repent hereafter.
Thus says Nanak: O mind, you are full of pride; loaded with pride, you shall depart. ||6||
O mind, don't be so proud of yourself, as if you know it all; the Gurmukh is humble and modest.
Within the intellect are ignorance and ego; through the True Word of the Shabad, this filth is washed off.
So be humble, and surrender to the True Guru; do not attach your identity to your ego.
The world is consumed by ego and self-identity; see this, lest you lose your own self as well.
Make yourself follow the Sweet Will of the True Guru; remain attached to His Sweet Will.
Thus says Nanak: renounce your ego and self-conceit, and obtain peace; let your mind abide in humility. ||7||
Blessed is that time, when I met the True Guru, and my Husband Lord came into my consciousness.
I became so very blissful, and my mind and body found such a natural peace.
My Husband Lord came into my consciousness; I enshrined Him within my mind, and I renounced all vice.
When it pleased Him, virtues appeared in me, and the True Guru Himself adorned me.
Those humble beings become acceptable, who cling to the One Name and renounce the love of duality.
Thus says Nanak: blessed is the time when I met the True Guru, and my Husband Lord came into my consciousness. ||8||
Some people wander around, deluded by doubt; their Husband Lord Himself has misled them.
They wander around in the love of duality, and they do their deeds in ego.
Their Husband Lord Himself has misled them, and put them on the path of evil. Nothing lies in their power.
You alone know their ups and downs, You, who created the creation.
The Command of Your Will is very strict; how rare is the Gurmukh who understands.
Thus says Nanak: what can the poor creatures do, when You mislead them into doubt? ||9||
O My True Lord Master, True is Your glorious greatness.
You are the Supreme Lord God, the Infinite Lord and Master. Your creative power cannot be described.
True is Your glorious greatness; when You enshrine it within the mind, one sings Your Glorious Praises forever.
He sings Your Glorious Praises, when it is pleasing to You, O True Lord; he centers his consciousness on You.
One whom You unite with Yourself, as Gurmukh, remains absorbed in You.
Thus says Nanak: O my True Lord Master, True is Your Glorious Greatness. ||10||2||7||5||2||7||
source: SikhiToTheMax


Punjabi Translation(source:GuruGranthDarpan):
ArQ:- hy myry (sqsMgI) s`jxo ipAwirE! qusI pRBU-pqI dI BgqI sdw krdy irhw kro, sdw Awpxy gurU dI srn pey rho (qy gurU pwsoN) sB qoN kImqI cIz hir-nwm hwsl kro [ (hy s`jxo!) qusI pRBU-pqI dI hI BgqI krdy rho, ieh BgqI ipAwry pRBU-pqI ƒ psMd AwauNdI hY [ jy (ies jIvn-s&r ivc) qusI AwpxI hI mrzI krdy rhogy qW pRBU-pqI dI pRsMnqw quhwƒ nhIN imlygI [
(pr, hy ipAwirE!) BgqI dw qy pRym dw ieh rsqw bhuq AOkVW-BirAw hY, koeI ivrlw mnu`K ieh rsqw l`Bdw hY jo gurU dy dr qy Aw if`gdw hY [ nwnk AwKdw hY—ijs mnu`K auqy pRBU (Awp) ikrpw krdw hY auh mnu`K Awpxw mn pRBU dI BgqI ivc joVdw hY [1[
ArQ:- hy myry mn! ij`Qy ij`Qy qUM dOVdw iPrdw hYN auQy auQy hI prmwqmw qyry nwl hI rihMdw hY (jy qUM aus ƒ Awpxy nwl v`sdw vyKxw cwhuMdw hYN qW) hy mn! AwpxI cqurweI (dw Awsrw) C`f dyxw cwhIdw hY [ hy mn! gurU dw Sbd Awpxy AMdr sMBwl ky r`K (iPr qYƒ id`s peygw ik) auh Ksm-pRBU sdw qyry nwl rihMdw hY [ (hy mn!) jy qUM iek iKn vwsqy BI prmwqmw dw nwm Awpxy AMdr vsweyN, qW qyry AnykW jnmW dy pwp k`ty jwx, qy, Aw^r qUM sB qoN au~cw Awqmk drjw hwsl kr leyN [
(hy mn!) gurU dI srn pY ky qUM sdw prmwqmw ƒ Awpxy AMdr vsweI r`K, (ies qrHW aus) sdw kwiem rihx vwly prmwqmw nwl qyrw p`kw ipAwr bx jweygw [ nwnk qYƒ ieauN d`sdw hY ik hy mn! ij`Qy ij`Qy qUM Btkdw iPrdw hYN au~Qy au~Qy prmwqmw sdw qyry nwl hI rihMdw hY [3[
(hy BweI!) jy gurU iml pey qW ieh Btkdw mn (Btkxw vloN) ruk jWdw hY, ieh pRBU-crnW ivc Aw itkdw hY [ (iPr ieh) prmwqmw dy nwm dw sOdw krdw hY (Bwv,) prmwqmw dw nwm jpdw rihMdw hY, nwm ivc lIn rihMdw hY [ (hy BweI! jy gurU iml pey qW Btkdw mn (Btkx vloN) ruk jWdw hY (iehI Awqmk AvsQw hY auh) dsvW drvwzw jo ies ƒ l`B pYNdw hY (jo igAwn-ieMidRAW qy krm-ieMidRAW qoN au~cw rihMdw hY) [ aus Awqmk AvsQw ivc (phuMc ky ieh mn) Awqmk jIvn dyx vwly nwm dI ^urwk KWdw hY; (ies dy AMdr) Awqmk Afolqw dI rO c`l pYNdI hY, aus Awqmk AvsQw ivc (ieh mn) gur-Sbd dI brkiq nwl dunIAw dy moh ƒ rok r`Kdw hY [ (ijvyN AnykW iksmW dy swj v`jx nwl bVw suMdr rwg pYdw huMdw hY, iqvyN) aus Awqmk AvsQw ivc (mn dy AMdr, mwno) AnykW sMgIqk swj v`jx l`g pYNdy hn, ies dy AMdr sdw Awnµd bixAw rihMdw hY, mn sdw-iQr prmwqmw ivc lIn rihMdw hY [
(hy BweI! qYƒ) nwnk ieauN d`sdw hY ik gurU iml pey qW ieh Btkdw mn (Btkx vloN) ruk jWdw hY, qy pRBU-crnW ivc Aw itkdw hY [4[
hy myry mn! qUM aus prmwqmw dI AMs hYN jo inrw nUr hI nUr hY (hy mn!) Awpxy aus Asly nwl sWJ bxw [ hy mn! auh prmwqmw sdw qyry AMg-sMg v`sdw hY, gurU dI miq lY ky aus dy imlwp dw suAwd lY [ hy mn! jy qUM Awpxw Aslw smJ leyN qW aus Ksm-pRBU nwl qyrI fUMGI jwx-pCwx bx jweygI, qdoN qYƒ ieh smJ BI Aw jwiegI ik Awqmk mOq kIh cIz hY qy Awqmk izMdgI kIh hY [
hy mn! jy gurU dI ikrpw nwl iek prmwqmw nwl fUMGI sWJ pw leyN, qW qyry AMdr (prmwqmw qoN ibnw) koeI hor moh pRbl nhIN ho skygw [
jdoN mnu`K dy mn ivc SWqI pYdw ho jWdI hY jdoN ies dy AMdr cVHdI klw pRbl ho jWdI hY qdoN ieh pRBU dI hzUrI ivc kbUl ho jWdw hY [
nwnk ieauN d`sdw hY—hy myry mn! qUM aus prmwqmw dI AMs hYN jo inrw cwnx hI cwnx hY (hy mn! Awpxy aus Asly nwl sWJ bxw [5[
hy mn! qUM (hux) AhMkwr nwl ilbiVAw ipAw hYN, AhMkwr nwl l`idAw hoieAw hI (jgq qoN) clw jwvyNgw, (vyKx ƒ) sohxI mwieAw ny qYƒ (Awpxy) moh ivc PswieAw hoieAw hY (ies dw nqIjw ieh inklygw ik) qYƒ muV muV AnykW jUnW ivc pwieAw jwiegw [ hy mUrK mn! jdoN qUM AhMkwr ivc PisAw hoieAw hI (ieQoN) quryNgw qW qurn vyly h`Q mlyNgw, qYƒ AhMkwr cMbiVAw hoieAw hY qYƒ iqRSnw dw rog l`gw hoieAw hY qUM (ieh mnu`Kw) jnm ivArQ gvw irhw hYN [
hy Awp-hudry mUrK mn! qUM prmwqmw ƒ nhIN ismrdw, prlok jw ky APsos kryNgw [ (qYƒ) nwnk ieauN d`sdw hY ik qUM ie`Qy AhMkwr nwl BirAw hoieAw hYN (jgq qoN qurn vyly BI) AhMkwr nwl l`idAw hoieAw hI jwvyNgw [6[
hy mn! vyKIN, ikqy ieh mwx nwh kr bYTIN ik mYN isAwxw hW, gurU dI srn pY ky mwx iqAwgI r`K [ (hy mn!) qyry AMdr prmwqmw qoN iv`Q hY, qyry AMdr ‘mYN, mYN’ krn vwlI Akl hY, ies mYl ƒ sdw-iQr hir-nwm ivc juV ky gurU dy Sbd ivc itk ky dUr kr [ hy mn! inrmwx ho ky gurU dy crnW ivc Fih pau [ vyKIN, ikqy Awpxw Awp jqwx nwh l`g peIN [ jgq Awpxy hI AhMkwr ivc sV irhw hY, vyKIN ikqy qUM BI (AhMkwr ivc pY ky) Awpxy Awp dw nws nw kr leIN [ (ies ^qry qoN qW hI bcyNgw, jy) qUM gurU dy hukm ivc qur ky kMm kryNgw [ (so, hy mn!) gurU dy hukm ivc itikAw rhu [ (hy mn! qYƒ) nwnk ieauN smJWdw hY—hy mn! AhMkwr C`f dy, AhMkwr C`f ky suK pwvyNgw [7[
auh vylw BwgW vwlw sI jdoN mYƒ gurU iml ipAw sI (qy, gurU dI ikrpw nwl) auh Ksm-pRBU myry ic`q ivc Aw v`isAw; myry AMdr bVw Awnµd pYdw hoieAw, myry AMdr Awqmk Afolqw pYdw ho geI, myry mn ny myry ihrdy ny suK AnuBv kIqw [ (gurU dI ikrpw nwl) auh Ksm-pRBU myry ic`q ivc Aw v`isAw, (gurU ny pRBU ƒ) myry mn ivc vsw id`qw, qy myry swry hI AOgux Bulw id`qy [ (hy BweI!) jdoN aus mwlk ƒ cMgw l`gdw hY aus dy gux mnu`K dy AMdr rOSn ho jWdy hn, gurU Awp aus mnu`K dy jIvn ƒ sohxw bxw dyNdw hY [
jyhVy mnu`K isr& hir-nwm ƒ Awpxy ihrdy ivc p`kw kr lYNdy hn, qy mwieAw dw moh AMdroN dUr kr lYNdy hn auh prmwqmw dI drgh ivc kbUl ho jWdy hn [
nwnk ieauN AwKdw hY—BwgW vwlw sI auh vylw jdoN mYƒ gurU iml ipAw sI qy (gurU dI ikrpw nwl) auh Ksm-pRBU myry ic`q ivc Aw v`isAw sI [8[
(hy BweI!) AnykW jIv mwieAw dI Btkxw ivc pY ky kurwhy pey hoey hn, (aus pYdw krn vwly) Ksm-pRBU ny Awp hI kurwhy pwey hoey hn, Ajyhy jIv haumY dy Awsry kMm kr kr ky mwieAw dy moh ivc Btkdy hn [ aus Ksm pRBU ny Awp (auhnW ƒ) shI rsqy qoN KuMJwieAw hoieAw hY qy kurwhy pwieAw hoieAw hY, auhnW jIvW dw koeI zor nhIN c`ldw (ik Awpxy au~dm nwl kumwrg C`f dyx) [
hy pRBU! ijs qYN ny ieh jgq-rcnw rcI hoeI hY qUM Awp hI (kurwhy pey hoey) auhnW jIvW dI cMgI mMdI Awqmk hwlq jwxdw hYN (ijs Anuswr qUM auhnW ƒ kurwhy pwieAw hY) [ qyrw hukm bVw fwFw hY (ijs kr ky jIv kurwhy pey hoey hn) [
(hy BweI!) iksy ivrly BwgW vwly ƒ Ksm-pRBU gurU dI srn pw ky Awpxw hukm smJWdw hY [ nwnk ieauN AwKdw hY—hy pRBU! jy qUM Awp hI jIvW ƒ mwieAw dI Btkxw ivc pw ky izMdgI dy mMdy rsqy pwieAw hoieAw hY, qW ieh ivcwry jIv kIh kr skdy hn? [9[
hy myry sdw-iQr mwlk! qyrw vf`px BI sdw kwiem rihx vwlw hY [ qUM byAMq mwlk hYN, qUM pwrbRhm hYN qyrI qwkq ibAwn nhIN kIqI jw skdI [ hy pRBU! qyrI vifAweI sdw kwiem rihx vwlI hY, ijnHW mnu`KW dy mn ivc qUM ieh vifAweI vsw id`qI hY, auh sdw qyrI is&iq-swlwh dy gIq gWdy hn [ pr qdoN hI qyrI is&iq-swlwh dy gIq gWdy hn jdoN qYƒ auh cMgy l`gdy hn, iPr auh qyry sdw-iQr srUp ivc Awpxw ic`q joVI r`Kdy hn [
hy pRBU! ijs mnu`K ƒ qUM Awp hI Awpxy crnW ivc joVdw hYN auh gurU dI srn pY ky qyrI Xwd ivc lIn rihMdw hY [ (qyrw dws) nwnk ieauN AwKdw hY—hy myry sdw kwiem rihx vwly mwlk! qyrI vifAweI BI sdw kwiem rihx vwlI hY [10[2[7[5[2[7[
source: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0442.html

Guru Shabad:
<> siqgur pRswid ]
Awsw mhlw 3 CMq Gru 3 ]
swjn myry pRIqmhu qum sh kI Bgiq kryho ]
guru syvhu sdw Awpxw nwmu pdwrQu lyho ]
Bgiq krhu qum shY kyrI jo sh ipAwry Bwvey ]
Awpxw Bwxw qum krhu qw iPir sh KusI n Awvey ]
Bgiq Bwv iehu mwrgu ibKVw gur duAwrY ko pwvey ]
khY nwnku ijsu kry ikrpw so hir BgqI icqu lwvey ]1]
myry mn bYrwgIAw qUM bYrwgu kir iksu idKwvih ]
hir soihlw iqn@ sd sdw jo hir gux gwvih ]
kir bYrwgu qUM Coif pwKMfu so shu sBu ikCu jwxey ]
jil Qil mhIAil eyko soeI gurmuiK hukmu pCwxey ]
ijin hukmu pCwqw hrI kyrw soeI srb suK pwvey ]
iev khY nwnku so bYrwgI Anidnu hir ilv lwvey ]2]
jh jh mn qUM Dwvdw qh qh hir qyrY nwly ]
mn isAwxp CofIAY gur kw sbdu smwly ]
swiQ qyrY so shu sdw hY ieku iKnu hir nwmu smwlhy ]
jnm jnm ky qyry pwp kty AMiq prm pdu pwvhy ]
swcy nwil qyrw gMFu lwgY gurmuiK sdw smwly ]
ieau khY nwnku jh mn qUM Dwvdw qh hir qyrY sdw nwly ]3]
siqgur imilAY Dwvqu QMim@Aw inj Gir visAw Awey ]
nwmu ivhwJy nwmu ley nwim rhy smwey ]
Dwvqu QMim@Aw siqguir imilAY dsvw duAwru pwieAw ]
iqQY AMimRq Bojnu shj Duin aupjY ijqu sbid jgqu QMim@ rhwieAw ]
qh Anyk vwjy sdw Andu hY scy rihAw smwey ]
ieau khY nwnku siqguir imilAY Dwvqu QMim@Aw inj Gir visAw Awey ]4]
mn qUM joiq srUpu hY Awpxw mUlu pCwxu ]
mn hir jI qyrY nwil hY gurmqI rMgu mwxu ]
mUlu pCwxih qW shu jwxih mrx jIvx kI soJI hoeI ]
gur prswdI eyko jwxih qW dUjw Bwau n hoeI ]
min sWiq AweI vjI vDweI qw hoAw prvwxu ]
ieau khY nwnku mn qUM joiq srUpu hY Apxw mUlu pCwxu ]5]
mn qUM gwrib AitAw gwrib lidAw jwih ]
mwieAw mohxI moihAw iPir iPir jUnI Bvwih ]
gwrib lwgw jwih mugD mn AMiq gieAw pCuqwvhy ]
AhMkwru iqsnw rogu lgw ibrQw jnmu gvwvhy ]
mnmuK mugD cyqih nwhI AgY gieAw pCuqwvhy ]
ieau khY nwnku mn qUM gwrib AitAw gwrib lidAw jwvhy ]6]
mn qUM mq mwxu krih ij hau ikCu jwxdw gurmuiK inmwxw hohu ]
AMqir AigAwnu hau buiD hY sic sbid mlu Kohu ]
hohu inmwxw siqgurU AgY mq ikCu Awpu lKwvhy ]
AwpxY AhMkwir jgqu jilAw mq qUM Awpxw Awpu gvwvhy ]
siqgur kY BwxY krih kwr siqgur kY BwxY lwig rhu ]
ieau khY nwnku Awpu Cif suK pwvih mn inmwxw hoie rhu ]7]
DMnu su vylw ijqu mY siqguru imilAw so shu iciq AwieAw ]
mhw Anµdu shju BieAw min qin suKu pwieAw ]
so shu iciq AwieAw mMin vswieAw Avgx siB ivswry ]
jw iqsu Bwxw gux prgt hoey siqgur Awip svwry ]
sy jn prvwxu hoey ijn@I ieku nwmu idiVAw duqIAw Bwau cukwieAw ]
ieau khY nwnku DMnu su vylw ijqu mY siqguru imilAw so shu iciq AwieAw ]8]
ieik jMq Brim Buly iqin sih Awip Bulwey ]
dUjY Bwie iPrih haumY krm kmwey ]
iqin sih Awip Bulwey kumwrig pwey iqn kw ikCu n vsweI ]
iqn kI giq Avgiq qUMhY jwxih ijin ieh rcn rcweI ]
hukmu qyrw Krw Bwrw gurmuiK iksY buJwey ]
ieau khY nwnku ikAw jMq ivcwry jw quDu Brim Bulwey ]9]
scy myry swihbw scI qyrI vifAweI ]
qUM pwrbRhmu byAMqu suAwmI qyrI kudriq khxu n jweI ]
scI qyrI vifAweI jw kau quDu mMin vsweI sdw qyry gux gwvhy ]
qyry gux gwvih jw quDu Bwvih scy isau icqu lwvhy ]
ijs no qUM Awpy mylih su gurmuiK rhY smweI ]
ieau khY nwnku scy myry swihbw scI qyrI vifAweI ]10]2]7]5]2]7]


----------



## Daanveer

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

A teaching from Gurbani:
Clinging to pride, you shall depart, O foolish mind, and in the end, you shall regret and repent.
You are afflicted with the diseases of ego and desire, and you are wasting your life away in vain.
The foolish self-willed manmukh does not remember the Lord, and shall regret and repent hereafter.
Thus says Nanak: O mind, you are full of pride; loaded with pride, you shall depart. ||6||


Sardara Ji,

Thanks for all the Gurbani posts. Keep up the good job friend.


----------



## Daanveer

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Seems like somebody is deleting my posts one after another. Thanks.


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Daanveer Ji,

Your posts with comments about moderator behaviour has been re-directed to Admin for scrutiny.

Please refrain from posting such comments about Moderators. Take it up with Admin instead. 

Please read the forum rules if still in doubt.

~ namjap ~


----------



## Daanveer

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



namjap said:


> Daanveer Ji,
> 
> Your posts with comments about moderator behaviour has been re-directed to Admin for scrutiny.
> 
> Please refrain from posting such comments about Moderators. Take it up with Admin instead.
> 
> Please read the forum rules if still in doubt.
> 
> ~ namjap ~


 

Thankyou for pointing it out Sir,

I will not use Moderator 'word' any more. Good Job: good lesson for me lowly worm. again free of cost. thanks


----------



## Daanveer

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



AmbarDhara said:


> *Light merges in Light(itself). *
> *Maya has created the illussion of two forms, where it was only One light. Through Shabad the Union-Oneness is obtained. So O mind, leave the sense of duality.*​


 
Ambar Ji,

The whole story is about being seperated. Thinking of ourselves to be the 'other'. 
Bahut Janam vichchuray thei Madho, eh Janam Tumaray Laikhey.


----------



## Daanveer

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Bani Sach Hai............ doesn't matter in which year the lines are composed.*
> *A TRUE SAINT: WHOSE SOUL IS MERGED WITH THE ALMIGHTY(GOD). SO IS THERE A DIFFERENCE??? NO. BUT A SAINT NEVER NEVER SING HIS/HER OWN PRAISES..................... *
> 
> *NO TRUE SAINT calls himself/herself GOD. *
> *BUT A TRUE SAINT KNOWS ABOUT THE OTHER TRUE SAINT, SO ACKNOWLEDGING HIM .................*
> 
> *Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaaj is telling about Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.*
> 
> *OUR GURUS ARE SO HUMBLE*
> *THEY HAVE EVEN SUGGESTED THAT NO BODY SHOULD CALL THEM GOD. BUT ONCE ONE KNOWS THE TRUTH, ONCE HEAD BOWS WITH UTMOST RESPECT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.............. AND HEART AND MIND ABSORBS THE TRUTH- TU HI TU.............................*
> 
> *Untill one has doubts about his/her Guru's ability, duality stays lingering in one form or the other..........*
> 
> 
> *SEVAK SIKH POOJAN SABH AAYE............................. read this shabad, in this Shabad Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Sahib is telling that one has to believe the word(order) of his/her Guru as TRUE. *
> 
> *and treatment of doubt is also prescribed by Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib- naam simran/rab nu chete karo/remember Him and only Him.................................................................*
> 
> *Waheguru Rakha*


 
Thanks for a nice explanation. You are being missed Surinder Ji.


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Daanveer said:


> A teaching from Gurbani:
> Clinging to pride, you shall depart, O foolish mind, and in the end, you shall regret and repent.
> You are afflicted with the diseases of ego and desire, and you are wasting your life away in vain.
> The foolish self-willed manmukh does not remember the Lord, and shall regret and repent hereafter.
> Thus says Nanak: O mind, you are full of pride; loaded with pride, you shall depart. ||6||
> 
> 
> Sardara Ji,
> 
> Thanks for all the Gurbani posts. Keep up the good job friend.


 
Danveer Ji,

It is all Guru Kirpa. Let us pray for Sarbat Da Bhalaa(May God Bless All).


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Daanveer said:


> Thankyou Sardara Ji, for pointing this out.
> I am learning from this that we must keep our ego controlled:rofl!!:, (a lesson free of cost).
> If we keep feeding our ego, will be blinded by it too, we will not be able to see the truth.
> 
> .


 
always available free of cost : boot camp


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Is it So?*



Balbir Singh said:


> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
> Dear all and Surinder Jee!
> 
> Quote "So Veer Balbir Singh Ji are you suggesting Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is preaching us wrong............ Wow.."
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is not preaching. The true Gurus are singing Truth in ecstasy. Imitating them may disturb them specially when someone does not know the origin of their Hymns and notes.
> 
> I have not found one instant where Gurdev has suggested one to repeat their written Hymns to achieve any material or spiritual goal. May I ask why so many lectures are available on Internet from Baabaas suggesting to repeat Japujee or other Paaths even Akhand Paaths? Please do not sell this behavior on the name of true Gurus. This is not Sikhi.
> What will happen to a person if someone goes on repeating a suggestion from Gurdev in somebody's ears. Should a person go on repeating suggestions from the reverend Gurus, for *example 'simar manaa'?*
> These Baabaas are the living examples of ignorance. Exactly so funny are their explanations.
> 
> This is not the Sikhi. True Gurus have given to the world.
> 
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib is one of the most valuable God's Gifts to humankind. Rarely someone has understood it, in my experience.
> 
> I may be leaving tomorrow for the true Guru's Mission. I wish all great Satsangs in coming days also.
> 
> 
> Balbir Singh


 

Powerful words spoken by Balbir Singh Jee.
Bhai Harjinder Singh Ji (Srinagar Wale) - Simar Manaa Ram Naam Chitare


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## kaur-1

*Re: Is it So?*



namjap said:


> Powerful words spoken by Balbir Singh Jee.
> Bhai Harjinder Singh Ji (Srinagar Wale) - Simar Manaa Ram Naam Chitare



I disaggree with your observations! BTW which comment do you think is so profound?

Beautiful Shabad Kirtan link. Thanks.


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## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Kaur-1 Ji,

*Simar manna part.*


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## kaur-1

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

I am sorry I am feeling rather "thick" today.

OK. but after reading Balbirs rather confusing post sevaral times all I decipher from the part about "simar mannar" is that he is against reading Gurbani for eg. Japji Sahib more then once! (repetition).  _(I thought the use of the word "decipher" was most appropriate here)_

Please explain if I have misunderstood the msg he is trying to convey.

Please also explain why he is saying that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not preaching. Isnt Gurbani "Gurmat"? 

Please also explain his comment "_Imitating them may disturb them_".


p/s This is the beautiful shabad link you have posted. Does it also mean that it is wrong to sing the shabad kirtan link you provided all day if I wanted to?

simar manaa raam naam chitaaray​ iblwvlu mhlw 5 ] (803-18)
bilaaval mehlaa 5.
Bilaaval, Fifth Mehl:​ 
BUly mwrgu ijnih bqwieAw ]
bhoolay maarag jineh bataa-i-aa.
He places the one who strays back on the Path;
AYsw guru vfBwgI pwieAw ]1]
aisaa gur vadbhaagee paa-i-aa. ||1||
such a Guru is found by great good fortune. ||1||
ismir mnw rwm nwmu icqwry ]
simar manaa raam naam chitaaray.
Meditate, contemplate the Name of the Lord, O mind.
bis rhy ihrdY gur crn ipAwry ]1] rhwau ]
bas rahay hirdai gur charan pi-aaray. ||1|| rahaa-o.
The Beloved Feet of the Guru abide within my heart. ||1||Pause||
kwim k®oiD loiB moih mnu lInw ]
kaam kroDh lobh mohi man leenaa.
The mind is engrossed in sexual desire, anger, greed and emotional attachment.
bMDn kwit mukiq guir kInw ]2]
banDhan kaat mukat gur keenaa. ||2||
Breaking my bonds, the Guru has liberated me. ||2||
duK suK krq jnim Puin mUAw ]
dukh sukh karat janam fun moo-aa.
Experiencing pain and pleasure, one is born, only to die again.
crn kml guir AwsRmu dIAw ]3]
charan kamal gur aasram dee-aa. ||3||
The Lotus Feet of the Guru bring peace and shelter. ||3||
Agin swgr bUfq sMswrw ]
agan saagar boodat sansaaraa.
The world is drowning in the ocean of fire.
nwnk bwh pkir siqguir insqwrw ]4]3]8]
naanak baah pakar satgur nistaaraa. ||4||3||8||
O Nanak, holding me by the arm, the True Guru has saved me. ||4||3||8||


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



			
				Namjap said:
			
		

> Balbir Singh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *********
> The true Gurus are singing Truth in ecstasy. Imitating them may disturb them specially when someone does not know the origin of their Hymns and notes.
> **********
> I have not found one instant where Gurdev has suggested one to repeat their written Hymns to achieve any material or spiritual goal
> *********
> What will happen to a person if someone goes on repeating a suggestion from Gurdev in somebody's ears. Should a person go on repeating suggestions from the reverend Gurus, for *example 'simar manaa'?*
> **********
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Powerful words spoken by Balbir Singh Jee.
Click to expand...

 
Gurbani tells us to do Kirtan. 
Namjap Ji I thought you teach Kirtan, am I wrong?

I remember reading all raag tatkraa by you in a thread.
You were recomending that to GurbaniSangeet wale also, just a few days ago.



Gurbani in Raags? for what?

OOPS
Raagi Harjinder Singh Ji is actually repeating the suggestions of Guru Ji. Thanks Namjap Ji.


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

I hope I am talking to the same namjap who created the Raag Tatkaraa, who teaches kirtan, share Gurbani with us and provide Kirtan Links all the time. I hope.


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## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



namjap said:


> Sardara Ji,
> 
> Tusi kyu chinta karde o
> God is everywhere. Keep your cool and calmness. We are all learning from each other's presence.
> 
> Nanak Chinta Mat Karo.
> Click here > Unknown - Nanak Chinta Mat Karo


 


			
				Namjap said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by *Balbir Singh*
> 
> 
> _Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!_
> _Dear all and Surinder Jee!_
> 
> _Quote "So Veer Balbir Singh Ji are you suggesting Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is preaching us wrong............ Wow.."_
> _Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is not preaching. The true Gurus are singing Truth in ecstasy. Imitating them may disturb them specially when someone does not know the origin of their Hymns and notes._
> 
> _I have not found one instant where Gurdev has suggested one to repeat their written Hymns to achieve any material or spiritual goal. May I ask why so many lectures are available on Internet from Baabaas suggesting to repeat Japujee or other Paaths even Akhand Paaths? Please do not sell this behavior on the name of true Gurus. This is not Sikhi._
> _What will happen to a person if someone goes on repeating a suggestion from Gurdev in somebody's ears. Should a person go on repeating suggestions from the reverend Gurus, for *example 'simar manaa'?*_
> _These Baabaas are the living examples of ignorance. Exactly so funny are their explanations._
> 
> _This is not the Sikhi. True Gurus have given to the world._
> 
> _Sri Guru Granth Sahib is one of the most valuable God's Gifts to humankind. Rarely someone has understood it, in my experience._
> 
> _I may be leaving tomorrow for the true Guru's Mission. I wish all great Satsangs in coming days also. _
> 
> 
> _Balbir Singh_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Powerful words spoken by Balbir Singh Jee.
> Bhai Harjinder Singh Ji (Srinagar Wale) - Simar Manaa Ram Naam Chitare
Click to expand...

 
Tuhadi Muraad kehree sikhyaa hai(what are you intending to teach):

1. Kirtan of Gurbani recomended by you - I will be repeating Bani there(listen/sing)
2. Renunciation of Bani Repetition recomended by you 

Please explain both in detail.
To me it looks like opposites of each other. Me moorakh may be stupid. 
How can I listen/sing keertan and then how not listen/sing keertan AT THE SAME TIME- HOW DO WE DO IT?

Thanks in advance.


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## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



AmbarDhara said:


> Gurbani tells us to do Kirtan.
> Namjap Ji I thought you teach Kirtan, am I wrong?
> 
> I remember reading all raag tatkraa by you in a thread.
> You were recomending that to GurbaniSangeet wale also, just a few days ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Gurbani in Raags? for what?
> 
> OOPS
> Raagi Harjinder Singh Ji is actually repeating the suggestions of Guru Ji. Thanks Namjap Ji.


 
Ambar Ji,

I'm grateful you've checked Kirtan Tatkara which I gave to Gurbani Sangeet wale as reference. 

Kaur-1 Ji,

As you can see from my replies to Balbir Singh Ji's various posts, I'm not in agreement with his style of queries. It is better for Balbir Singh Ji to answer your queries which seem doubtful to you. 

To All Sadh Sangat Ji,

It's amazing how the swan picks only the pearls from the mud and turn it into a beautiful kirtan session.

Dya Singh (Australia) - Aavo Sikh Satgur Ke Pyareo


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## AmbarDhara

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sukhmani Sahib Ji:

"Jin Prabh Jaata su sobhavant"
Those who know the Lord are Glorious.


See you all in a few months

be


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## Randip Singh

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*

In order to deabte this properly let us have the entire shabad from page 864 and tranlitration, not just one liners:


_ਗੋਂਡ __ਮਹਲਾ __੫ __॥_
_गोंड महला ५ ॥ _
_Gond mehlā 5. _
_Gond, Fifth Mehl: _

_ਗੁਰ __ਕੀ __ਮੂਰਤਿ __ਮਨ __ਮਹਿ __ਧਿਆਨੁ __॥_
_गुर की मूरति मन महि धिआनु ॥ _
_Gur kī mūraṯ man meh ḏẖi&shy;ān. _
_Meditate on the image of the Guru within your mind; _

_ਗੁਰ __ਕੈ __ਸਬਦਿ __ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ __ਮਨੁ __ਮਾਨ __॥_
_गुर कै सबदि मंत्रु मनु मान ॥ _
_Gur kai sabaḏ manṯar man mān. _
_let your mind accept the Word of the Guru's Shabad, and His Mantra. _

_ਗੁਰ __ਕੇ __ਚਰਨ __ਰਿਦੈ __ਲੈ __ਧਾਰਉ __॥_
_गुर के चरन रिदै लै धारउ ॥ _
_Gur kė cẖaran riḏai lai ḏẖāra&shy;o. _
_Enshrine the Guru's feet within your heart. _

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ __ਸਦਾ __ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ __॥੧॥_
_गुरु पारब्रहमु सदा नमसकारउ ॥१॥ _
_Gur pārbarahm saḏā namaskāra&shy;o. ||1|| _
_Bow in humility forever before the Guru, the Supreme Lord God. ||1|| _

_ਮਤ __ਕੋ __ਭਰਮਿ __ਭੁਲੈ __ਸੰਸਾਰਿ __॥_
_मत को भरमि भुलै संसारि ॥ _
_Maṯ ko bẖaram bẖulai sansār. _
_Let no one wander in doubt in the world. _

_ਗੁਰ __ਬਿਨੁ __ਕੋਇ __ਨ __ਉਤਰਸਿ __ਪਾਰਿ __॥੧॥ __ਰਹਾਉ __॥_
_गुर बिनु कोइ न उतरसि पारि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ _
_Gur bin ko&shy;ė na uṯras pār. ||1|| rahā&shy;o. _
_Without the Guru, no one can cross over. ||1||Pause|| _

_ਭੂਲੇ __ਕਉ __ਗੁਰਿ __ਮਾਰਗਿ __ਪਾਇਆ __॥_
_भूले कउ गुरि मारगि पाइआ ॥ _
_Bẖūlė ka&shy;o gur mārag pā&shy;i&shy;ā. _
_The Guru shows the Path to those who have wandered off. _

_ਅਵਰ __ਤਿਆਗਿ __ਹਰਿ __ਭਗਤੀ __ਲਾਇਆ __॥_
_अवर तिआगि हरि भगती लाइआ ॥ _
_Avar ṯi&shy;āg har bẖagṯī lā&shy;i&shy;ā. _
_He leads them to renounce others, and attaches them to devotional worship of the Lord. _

_ਜਨਮ __ਮਰਨ __ਕੀ __ਤ੍ਰਾਸ __ਮਿਟਾਈ __॥_
_जनम मरन की त्रास मिटाई ॥ _
_Janam maran kī ṯarās mitā&shy;ī. _
_He obliterates the fear of birth and death. _

_ਗੁਰ __ਪੂਰੇ __ਕੀ __ਬੇਅੰਤ __ਵਡਾਈ __॥੨॥_
_गुर पूरे की बेअंत वडाई ॥२॥ _
_Gur pūrė kī bė&shy;anṯ vadā&shy;ī. ||2|| _
_The glorious greatness of the Perfect Guru is endless. ||2|| _

_ਗੁਰ __ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ __ਊਰਧ __ਕਮਲ __ਬਿਗਾਸ __॥_
_गुर प्रसादि ऊरध कमल बिगास ॥ _
_Gur parsāḏ ūraḏẖ kamal bigās. _
_By Guru's Grace, the inverted heart-lotus blossoms forth, _

_ਅੰਧਕਾਰ __ਮਹਿ __ਭਇਆ __ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸ __॥_
_अंधकार महि भइआ प्रगास ॥ _
_Anḏẖkār meh bẖa&shy;i&shy;ā pargās. _
_and the Light shines forth in the darkness. _

_ਜਿਨਿ __ਕੀਆ __ਸੋ __ਗੁਰ __ਤੇ __ਜਾਨਿਆ __॥_
_जिनि कीआ सो गुर ते जानिआ ॥ _
_Jin kī&shy;ā so gur ṯė jāni&shy;ā. _
_Through the Guru, know the One who created you. _

_ਗੁਰ __ਕਿਰਪਾ __ਤੇ __ਮੁਗਧ __ਮਨੁ __ਮਾਨਿਆ __॥੩॥_
_गुर किरपा ते मुगध मनु मानिआ ॥३॥ _
_Gur kirpā ṯė mugaḏẖ man māni&shy;ā. ||3|| _
_By the Guru's Mercy, the foolish mind comes to believe. ||3|| _

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਕਰਤਾ __ਗੁਰੁ __ਕਰਣੈ __ਜੋਗੁ __॥_
_गुरु करता गुरु करणै जोगु ॥ _
_Gur karṯā gur karṇai jog. _
_The Guru is the Creator; the Guru has the power to do everything. _

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ __ਹੈ __ਭੀ __ਹੋਗੁ __॥_
_गुरु परमेसरु है भी होगु ॥ _
_Gur parmėsar hai bẖī hog. _
_The Guru is the Transcendent Lord; He is, and always shall be. _

_ਕਹੁ __ਨਾਨਕ __ਪ੍ਰਭਿ __ਇਹੈ __ਜਨਾਈ __॥_
_कहु नानक प्रभि इहै जनाई ॥ _
_Kaho Nānak parabẖ ihai janā&shy;ī. _
_Says Nanak, God has inspired me to know this. _

_ਬਿਨੁ __ਗੁਰ __ਮੁਕਤਿ __ਨ __ਪਾਈਐ __ਭਾਈ __॥੪॥੫॥੭॥_
_बिनु गुर मुकति न पाईऐ भाई ॥४॥५॥७॥ _
_Bin gur mukaṯ na pā&shy;ī&shy;ai bẖā&shy;ī. ||4||5||7|| _
_Without the Guru, liberation is not obtained, O Siblings of Destiny. ||4||5||7|| _

_ਗੋਂਡ __ਮਹਲਾ __੫ __॥_
_गोंड महला ५ ॥ _
_Gond mehlā 5. _
_Gond, Fifth Mehl: _

_ਗੁਰੂ __ਗੁਰੂ __ਗੁਰੁ __ਕਰਿ __ਮਨ __ਮੋਰ __॥_
_गुरू गुरू गुरु करि मन मोर ॥ _
_Gurū gurū gur kar man mor. _
_Chant Guru, Guru, Guru, O my mind. _

_ਗੁਰੂ __ਬਿਨਾ __ਮੈ __ਨਾਹੀ __ਹੋਰ __॥_
_गुरू बिना मै नाही होर ॥ _
_Gurū binā mai nāhī hor. _
_I have no other than the Guru. _

_ਗੁਰ __ਕੀ __ਟੇਕ __ਰਹਹੁ __ਦਿਨੁ __ਰਾਤਿ __॥_
_गुर की टेक रहहु दिनु राति ॥ _
_Gur kī tėk rahhu ḏin rāṯ. _
_I lean upon the Support of the Guru, day and night. _

_ਜਾ __ਕੀ __ਕੋਇ __ਨ __ਮੇਟੈ __ਦਾਤਿ __॥੧॥_
_जा की कोइ न मेटै दाति ॥१॥ _
_Jā kī ko&shy;ė na mėtai ḏāṯ. ||1|| _
_No one can decrease His bounty. ||1|| _

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ __ਏਕੋ __ਜਾਣੁ __॥_
_गुरु परमेसरु एको जाणु ॥ _
_Gur parmėsar ėko jāṇ. _
_Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One. _

_ਜੋ __ਤਿਸੁ __ਭਾਵੈ __ਸੋ __ਪਰਵਾਣੁ __॥੧॥ __ਰਹਾਉ __॥_
_जो तिसु भावै सो परवाणु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ _
_Jo ṯis bẖāvai so parvāṇ. ||1|| rahā&shy;o. _
_Whatever pleases Him is acceptable and approved. ||1||Pause|| _

_ਗੁਰ __ਚਰਣੀ __ਜਾ __ਕਾ __ਮਨੁ __ਲਾਗੈ __॥_
_गुर चरणी जा का मनु लागै ॥ _
_Gur cẖarṇī jā kā man lāgai. _
_One whose mind is attached to the Guru's feet - _

_ਦੂਖੁ __ਦਰਦੁ __ਭ੍ਰਮੁ __ਤਾ __ਕਾ __ਭਾਗੈ __॥_
_दूखु दरदु भ्रमु ता का भागै ॥ _
_Ḏūkẖ ḏaraḏ bẖaram ṯā kā bẖāgai. _
_his pains, sufferings and doubts run away. _

_ਗੁਰ __ਕੀ __ਸੇਵਾ __ਪਾਏ __ਮਾਨੁ __॥_
_गुर की सेवा पाए मानु ॥ _
_Gur kī sėvā pā&shy;ė mān. _
_Serving the Guru, honor is obtained. _

_ਗੁਰ __ਊਪਰਿ __ਸਦਾ __ਕੁਰਬਾਨੁ __॥੨॥_
_गुर ऊपरि सदा कुरबानु ॥२॥ _
_Gur ūpar saḏā kurbān. ||2|| _
_I am forever a sacrifice to the Guru. ||2|| _

_ਗੁਰ __ਕਾ __ਦਰਸਨੁ __ਦੇਖਿ __ਨਿਹਾਲ __॥_
_गुर का दरसनु देखि निहाल ॥ _
_Gur kā ḏarsan ḏėkẖ nihāl. _
_Gazing upon the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan, I am exalted. _

_ਗੁਰ __ਕੇ __ਸੇਵਕ __ਕੀ __ਪੂਰਨ __ਘਾਲ __॥_
_गुर के सेवक की पूरन घाल ॥ _
_Gur kė sėvak kī pūran gẖāl. _
_The work of the Guru's servant is perfect. _

_ਗੁਰ __ਕੇ __ਸੇਵਕ __ਕਉ __ਦੁਖੁ __ਨ __ਬਿਆਪੈ __॥_
_गुर के सेवक कउ दुखु न बिआपै ॥ _
_Gur kė sėvak ka&shy;o ḏukẖ na bi&shy;āpai. _
_Pain does not afflict the Guru's servant. _

_ਗੁਰ __ਕਾ __ਸੇਵਕੁ __ਦਹ __ਦਿਸਿ __ਜਾਪੈ __॥੩॥_
_गुर का सेवकु दह दिसि जापै ॥३॥ _
_Gur kā sėvak ḏah ḏis jāpai. ||3|| _
_The Guru's servant is famous in the ten directions. ||3|| _

_ਗੁਰ __ਕੀ __ਮਹਿਮਾ __ਕਥਨੁ __ਨ __ਜਾਇ __॥_
_गुर की महिमा कथनु न जाइ ॥ _
_Gur kī mahimā kathan na jā&shy;ė. _
_The Guru's glory cannot be described. _

_ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ __ਗੁਰੁ __ਰਹਿਆ __ਸਮਾਇ __॥_
_पारब्रहमु गुरु रहिआ समाइ ॥ _
_Pārbarahm gur rahi&shy;ā samā&shy;ė. _
_The Guru remains absorbed in the Supreme Lord God. _

_ਕਹੁ __ਨਾਨਕ __ਜਾ __ਕੇ __ਪੂਰੇ __ਭਾਗ __॥_
_कहु नानक जा के पूरे भाग ॥ _
_Kaho Nānak jā kė pūrė bẖāg. _
_Says Nanak, one who is blessed with perfect destiny - _

_ਗੁਰ __ਚਰਣੀ __ਤਾ __ਕਾ __ਮਨੁ __ਲਾਗ __॥੪॥੬॥੮॥_
_गुर चरणी ता का मनु लाग ॥४॥६॥८॥ _
_Gur cẖarṇī ṯā kā man lāg. ||4||6||8|| _
_his mind is attached to the Guru's feet. ||4||6||8|| _

_ਗੋਂਡ __ਮਹਲਾ __੫ __॥_
_गोंड महला ५ ॥ _
_Gond mehlā 5. _
_Gond, Fifth Mehl: _

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਮੇਰੀ __ਪੂਜਾ __ਗੁਰੁ __ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ __॥_
_गुरु मेरी पूजा गुरु गोबिंदु ॥ _
_Gur mėrī pūjā gur gobinḏ. _
_I worship and adore my Guru; the Guru is the Lord of the Universe. _

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਮੇਰਾ __ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ __ਗੁਰੁ __ਭਗਵੰਤੁ __॥_
_गुरु मेरा पारब्रहमु गुरु भगवंतु ॥ _
_Gur mėrā pārbarahm gur bẖagvanṯ. _
_My Guru is the Supreme Lord God; the Guru is the Lord God. _

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਮੇਰਾ __ਦੇਉ __ਅਲਖ __ਅਭੇਉ __॥_
_गुरु मेरा देउ अलख अभेउ ॥ _
_Gur mėrā ḏė&shy;o alakẖ abẖė&shy;o. _
_My Guru is divine, invisible and mysterious. _

_ਸਰਬ __ਪੂਜ __ਚਰਨ __ਗੁਰ __ਸੇਉ __॥੧॥_
_सरब पूज चरन गुर सेउ ॥१॥ _
_Sarab pūj cẖaran gur sė&shy;o. ||1|| _
_I serve at the Guru's feet, which are worshipped by all. ||1|| _

_ਗੁਰ __ਬਿਨੁ __ਅਵਰੁ __ਨਾਹੀ __ਮੈ __ਥਾਉ __॥_
_गुर बिनु अवरु नाही मै थाउ ॥ _
_Gur bin avar nāhī mai thā&shy;o. _
_Without the Guru, I have no other place at all. _

_ਅਨਦਿਨੁ __ਜਪਉ __ਗੁਰੂ __ਗੁਰ __ਨਾਉ __॥੧॥ __ਰਹਾਉ __॥_
_अनदिनु जपउ गुरू गुर नाउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ _
_An&shy;ḏin japa&shy;o gurū gur nā&shy;o. ||1|| rahā&shy;o. _
_Night and day, I chant the Name of Guru, Guru. ||1||Pause|| _

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਮੇਰਾ __ਗਿਆਨੁ __ਗੁਰੁ __ਰਿਦੈ __ਧਿਆਨੁ __॥_
_गुरु मेरा गिआनु गुरु रिदै धिआनु ॥ _
_Gur mėrā gi&shy;ān gur riḏai ḏẖi&shy;ān. _
_The Guru is my spiritual wisdom, the Guru is the meditation within my heart. _

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਗੋਪਾਲੁ __ਪੁਰਖੁ __ਭਗਵਾਨੁ __॥_
_गुरु गोपालु पुरखु भगवानु ॥ _
_Gur gopāl purakẖ bẖagvān. _
_The Guru is the Lord of the World, the Primal Being, the Lord God. _

_ਗੁਰ __ਕੀ __ਸਰਣਿ __ਰਹਉ __ਕਰ __ਜੋਰਿ __॥_
_गुर की सरणि रहउ कर जोरि ॥ _
_Gur kī saraṇ raha&shy;o kar jor. _
_With my palms pressed together, I remain in the Guru's Sanctuary. _

_ਗੁਰੂ __ਬਿਨਾ __ਮੈ __ਨਾਹੀ __ਹੋਰੁ __॥੨॥_
_गुरू बिना मै नाही होरु ॥२॥ _
_Gurū binā mai nāhī hor. ||2|| _
_Without the Guru, I have no other at all. ||2|| _

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਬੋਹਿਥੁ __ਤਾਰੇ __ਭਵ __ਪਾਰਿ __॥_
_गुरु बोहिथु तारे भव पारि ॥ _
_Gur bohith ṯārė bẖav pār. _
_The Guru is the boat to cross over the terrifying world-ocean. _

_ਗੁਰ __ਸੇਵਾ __ਜਮ __ਤੇ __ਛੁਟਕਾਰਿ __॥_
_गुर सेवा जम ते छुटकारि ॥ _
_Gur sėvā jam ṯė cẖẖutkār. _
_Serving the Guru, one is released from the Messenger of Death. _

_ਅੰਧਕਾਰ __ਮਹਿ __ਗੁਰ __ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ __ਉਜਾਰਾ __॥_
_अंधकार महि गुर मंत्रु उजारा ॥ _
_Anḏẖkār meh gur manṯar ujārā. _
_In the darkness, the Guru's Mantra shines forth. _

_ਗੁਰ __ਕੈ __ਸੰਗਿ __ਸਗਲ __ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ __॥੩॥_
_गुर कै संगि सगल निसतारा ॥३॥ _
_Gur kai sang sagal nisṯārā. ||3|| _
_With the Guru, all are saved. ||3|| _

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਪੂਰਾ __ਪਾਈਐ __ਵਡਭਾਗੀ __॥_
_गुरु पूरा पाईऐ वडभागी ॥ _
_Gur pūrā pā&shy;ī&shy;ai vadbẖāgī. _
_The Perfect Guru is found, by great good fortune. _

_ਗੁਰ __ਕੀ __ਸੇਵਾ __ਦੂਖੁ __ਨ __ਲਾਗੀ __॥_
_गुर की सेवा दूखु न लागी ॥ _
_Gur kī sėvā ḏūkẖ na lāgī. _
_Serving the Guru, pain does not afflict anyone. _

_ਗੁਰ __ਕਾ __ਸਬਦੁ __ਨ __ਮੇਟੈ __ਕੋਇ __॥_
_गुर का सबदु न मेटै कोइ ॥ _
_Gur kā sabaḏ na mėtai ko&shy;ė. _
_No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad. _

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਹਰਿ __ਸੋਇ __॥੪॥੭॥੯॥_
_गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥ _
_Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. ||4||7||9|| _
_Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||_



The last line is _Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė_. Har soe? Does that not mean Guru Nanak _is that_?


If Guru Nanak "is that"? What "is that"? Is it that he is God or he is so perfect that he is merged with God and hence a Gurmukh?


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



AmbarDhara said:


> Sukhmani Sahib Ji:
> 
> "Jin Prabh Jaata su sobhavant"
> Those who know the Lord are Glorious.
> 
> 
> See you all in a few months
> 
> be


 
Sweet Ambar, you will be missed.

We will stay .


Come back soon.


----------



## Pyramid

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*



randip singh said:


> In order to deabte this properly let us have the entire shabad from page 864 and tranlitration, not just one liners:
> 
> 
> _ਗੋਂਡ __ਮਹਲਾ __੫ __॥_
> _गोंड महला ५ ॥ _
> _Gond mehlā 5. _
> _Gond, Fifth Mehl: _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਕੀ __ਮੂਰਤਿ __ਮਨ __ਮਹਿ __ਧਿਆਨੁ __॥_
> _गुर की मूरति मन महि धिआनु ॥ _
> _Gur kī mūraṯ man meh ḏẖi&shy;ān. _
> _Meditate on the image of the Guru within your mind; _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਕੈ __ਸਬਦਿ __ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ __ਮਨੁ __ਮਾਨ __॥_
> _गुर कै सबदि मंत्रु मनु मान ॥ _
> _Gur kai sabaḏ manṯar man mān. _
> _let your mind accept the Word of the Guru's Shabad, and His Mantra. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਕੇ __ਚਰਨ __ਰਿਦੈ __ਲੈ __ਧਾਰਉ __॥_
> _गुर के चरन रिदै लै धारउ ॥ _
> _Gur kė cẖaran riḏai lai ḏẖāra&shy;o. _
> _Enshrine the Guru's feet within your heart. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ __ਸਦਾ __ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ __॥੧॥_
> _गुरु पारब्रहमु सदा नमसकारउ ॥१॥ _
> _Gur pārbarahm saḏā namaskāra&shy;o. ||1|| _
> _Bow in humility forever before the Guru, the Supreme Lord God. ||1|| _
> 
> _ਮਤ __ਕੋ __ਭਰਮਿ __ਭੁਲੈ __ਸੰਸਾਰਿ __॥_
> _मत को भरमि भुलै संसारि ॥ _
> _Maṯ ko bẖaram bẖulai sansār. _
> _Let no one wander in doubt in the world. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਬਿਨੁ __ਕੋਇ __ਨ __ਉਤਰਸਿ __ਪਾਰਿ __॥੧॥ __ਰਹਾਉ __॥_
> _गुर बिनु कोइ न उतरसि पारि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ _
> _Gur bin ko&shy;ė na uṯras pār. ||1|| rahā&shy;o. _
> _Without the Guru, no one can cross over. ||1||Pause|| _
> 
> _ਭੂਲੇ __ਕਉ __ਗੁਰਿ __ਮਾਰਗਿ __ਪਾਇਆ __॥_
> _भूले कउ गुरि मारगि पाइआ ॥ _
> _Bẖūlė ka&shy;o gur mārag pā&shy;i&shy;ā. _
> _The Guru shows the Path to those who have wandered off. _
> 
> _ਅਵਰ __ਤਿਆਗਿ __ਹਰਿ __ਭਗਤੀ __ਲਾਇਆ __॥_
> _अवर तिआगि हरि भगती लाइआ ॥ _
> _Avar ṯi&shy;āg har bẖagṯī lā&shy;i&shy;ā. _
> _He leads them to renounce others, and attaches them to devotional worship of the Lord. _
> 
> _ਜਨਮ __ਮਰਨ __ਕੀ __ਤ੍ਰਾਸ __ਮਿਟਾਈ __॥_
> _जनम मरन की त्रास मिटाई ॥ _
> _Janam maran kī ṯarās mitā&shy;ī. _
> _He obliterates the fear of birth and death. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਪੂਰੇ __ਕੀ __ਬੇਅੰਤ __ਵਡਾਈ __॥੨॥_
> _गुर पूरे की बेअंत वडाई ॥२॥ _
> _Gur pūrė kī bė&shy;anṯ vadā&shy;ī. ||2|| _
> _The glorious greatness of the Perfect Guru is endless. ||2|| _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ __ਊਰਧ __ਕਮਲ __ਬਿਗਾਸ __॥_
> _गुर प्रसादि ऊरध कमल बिगास ॥ _
> _Gur parsāḏ ūraḏẖ kamal bigās. _
> _By Guru's Grace, the inverted heart-lotus blossoms forth, _
> 
> _ਅੰਧਕਾਰ __ਮਹਿ __ਭਇਆ __ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸ __॥_
> _अंधकार महि भइआ प्रगास ॥ _
> _Anḏẖkār meh bẖa&shy;i&shy;ā pargās. _
> _and the Light shines forth in the darkness. _
> 
> _ਜਿਨਿ __ਕੀਆ __ਸੋ __ਗੁਰ __ਤੇ __ਜਾਨਿਆ __॥_
> _जिनि कीआ सो गुर ते जानिआ ॥ _
> _Jin kī&shy;ā so gur ṯė jāni&shy;ā. _
> _Through the Guru, know the One who created you. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਕਿਰਪਾ __ਤੇ __ਮੁਗਧ __ਮਨੁ __ਮਾਨਿਆ __॥੩॥_
> _गुर किरपा ते मुगध मनु मानिआ ॥३॥ _
> _Gur kirpā ṯė mugaḏẖ man māni&shy;ā. ||3|| _
> _By the Guru's Mercy, the foolish mind comes to believe. ||3|| _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਕਰਤਾ __ਗੁਰੁ __ਕਰਣੈ __ਜੋਗੁ __॥_
> _गुरु करता गुरु करणै जोगु ॥ _
> _Gur karṯā gur karṇai jog. _
> _The Guru is the Creator; the Guru has the power to do everything. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ __ਹੈ __ਭੀ __ਹੋਗੁ __॥_
> _गुरु परमेसरु है भी होगु ॥ _
> _Gur parmėsar hai bẖī hog. _
> _The Guru is the Transcendent Lord; He is, and always shall be. _
> 
> _ਕਹੁ __ਨਾਨਕ __ਪ੍ਰਭਿ __ਇਹੈ __ਜਨਾਈ __॥_
> _कहु नानक प्रभि इहै जनाई ॥ _
> _Kaho Nānak parabẖ ihai janā&shy;ī. _
> _Says Nanak, God has inspired me to know this. _
> 
> _ਬਿਨੁ __ਗੁਰ __ਮੁਕਤਿ __ਨ __ਪਾਈਐ __ਭਾਈ __॥੪॥੫॥੭॥_
> _बिनु गुर मुकति न पाईऐ भाई ॥४॥५॥७॥ _
> _Bin gur mukaṯ na pā&shy;ī&shy;ai bẖā&shy;ī. ||4||5||7|| _
> _Without the Guru, liberation is not obtained, O Siblings of Destiny. ||4||5||7|| _
> 
> _ਗੋਂਡ __ਮਹਲਾ __੫ __॥_
> _गोंड महला ५ ॥ _
> _Gond mehlā 5. _
> _Gond, Fifth Mehl: _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੂ __ਗੁਰੂ __ਗੁਰੁ __ਕਰਿ __ਮਨ __ਮੋਰ __॥_
> _गुरू गुरू गुरु करि मन मोर ॥ _
> _Gurū gurū gur kar man mor. _
> _Chant Guru, Guru, Guru, O my mind. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੂ __ਬਿਨਾ __ਮੈ __ਨਾਹੀ __ਹੋਰ __॥_
> _गुरू बिना मै नाही होर ॥ _
> _Gurū binā mai nāhī hor. _
> _I have no other than the Guru. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਕੀ __ਟੇਕ __ਰਹਹੁ __ਦਿਨੁ __ਰਾਤਿ __॥_
> _गुर की टेक रहहु दिनु राति ॥ _
> _Gur kī tėk rahhu ḏin rāṯ. _
> _I lean upon the Support of the Guru, day and night. _
> 
> _ਜਾ __ਕੀ __ਕੋਇ __ਨ __ਮੇਟੈ __ਦਾਤਿ __॥੧॥_
> _जा की कोइ न मेटै दाति ॥१॥ _
> _Jā kī ko&shy;ė na mėtai ḏāṯ. ||1|| _
> _No one can decrease His bounty. ||1|| _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ __ਏਕੋ __ਜਾਣੁ __॥_
> _गुरु परमेसरु एको जाणु ॥ _
> _Gur parmėsar ėko jāṇ. _
> _Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One. _
> 
> _ਜੋ __ਤਿਸੁ __ਭਾਵੈ __ਸੋ __ਪਰਵਾਣੁ __॥੧॥ __ਰਹਾਉ __॥_
> _जो तिसु भावै सो परवाणु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ _
> _Jo ṯis bẖāvai so parvāṇ. ||1|| rahā&shy;o. _
> _Whatever pleases Him is acceptable and approved. ||1||Pause|| _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਚਰਣੀ __ਜਾ __ਕਾ __ਮਨੁ __ਲਾਗੈ __॥_
> _गुर चरणी जा का मनु लागै ॥ _
> _Gur cẖarṇī jā kā man lāgai. _
> _One whose mind is attached to the Guru's feet - _
> 
> _ਦੂਖੁ __ਦਰਦੁ __ਭ੍ਰਮੁ __ਤਾ __ਕਾ __ਭਾਗੈ __॥_
> _दूखु दरदु भ्रमु ता का भागै ॥ _
> _Ḏūkẖ ḏaraḏ bẖaram ṯā kā bẖāgai. _
> _his pains, sufferings and doubts run away. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਕੀ __ਸੇਵਾ __ਪਾਏ __ਮਾਨੁ __॥_
> _गुर की सेवा पाए मानु ॥ _
> _Gur kī sėvā pā&shy;ė mān. _
> _Serving the Guru, honor is obtained. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਊਪਰਿ __ਸਦਾ __ਕੁਰਬਾਨੁ __॥੨॥_
> _गुर ऊपरि सदा कुरबानु ॥२॥ _
> _Gur ūpar saḏā kurbān. ||2|| _
> _I am forever a sacrifice to the Guru. ||2|| _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਕਾ __ਦਰਸਨੁ __ਦੇਖਿ __ਨਿਹਾਲ __॥_
> _गुर का दरसनु देखि निहाल ॥ _
> _Gur kā ḏarsan ḏėkẖ nihāl. _
> _Gazing upon the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan, I am exalted. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਕੇ __ਸੇਵਕ __ਕੀ __ਪੂਰਨ __ਘਾਲ __॥_
> _गुर के सेवक की पूरन घाल ॥ _
> _Gur kė sėvak kī pūran gẖāl. _
> _The work of the Guru's servant is perfect. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਕੇ __ਸੇਵਕ __ਕਉ __ਦੁਖੁ __ਨ __ਬਿਆਪੈ __॥_
> _गुर के सेवक कउ दुखु न बिआपै ॥ _
> _Gur kė sėvak ka&shy;o ḏukẖ na bi&shy;āpai. _
> _Pain does not afflict the Guru's servant. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਕਾ __ਸੇਵਕੁ __ਦਹ __ਦਿਸਿ __ਜਾਪੈ __॥੩॥_
> _गुर का सेवकु दह दिसि जापै ॥३॥ _
> _Gur kā sėvak ḏah ḏis jāpai. ||3|| _
> _The Guru's servant is famous in the ten directions. ||3|| _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਕੀ __ਮਹਿਮਾ __ਕਥਨੁ __ਨ __ਜਾਇ __॥_
> _गुर की महिमा कथनु न जाइ ॥ _
> _Gur kī mahimā kathan na jā&shy;ė. _
> _The Guru's glory cannot be described. _
> 
> _ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ __ਗੁਰੁ __ਰਹਿਆ __ਸਮਾਇ __॥_
> _पारब्रहमु गुरु रहिआ समाइ ॥ _
> _Pārbarahm gur rahi&shy;ā samā&shy;ė. _
> _The Guru remains absorbed in the Supreme Lord God. _
> 
> _ਕਹੁ __ਨਾਨਕ __ਜਾ __ਕੇ __ਪੂਰੇ __ਭਾਗ __॥_
> _कहु नानक जा के पूरे भाग ॥ _
> _Kaho Nānak jā kė pūrė bẖāg. _
> _Says Nanak, one who is blessed with perfect destiny - _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਚਰਣੀ __ਤਾ __ਕਾ __ਮਨੁ __ਲਾਗ __॥੪॥੬॥੮॥_
> _गुर चरणी ता का मनु लाग ॥४॥६॥८॥ _
> _Gur cẖarṇī ṯā kā man lāg. ||4||6||8|| _
> _his mind is attached to the Guru's feet. ||4||6||8|| _
> 
> _ਗੋਂਡ __ਮਹਲਾ __੫ __॥_
> _गोंड महला ५ ॥ _
> _Gond mehlā 5. _
> _Gond, Fifth Mehl: _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਮੇਰੀ __ਪੂਜਾ __ਗੁਰੁ __ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ __॥_
> _गुरु मेरी पूजा गुरु गोबिंदु ॥ _
> _Gur mėrī pūjā gur gobinḏ. _
> _I worship and adore my Guru; the Guru is the Lord of the Universe. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਮੇਰਾ __ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ __ਗੁਰੁ __ਭਗਵੰਤੁ __॥_
> _गुरु मेरा पारब्रहमु गुरु भगवंतु ॥ _
> _Gur mėrā pārbarahm gur bẖagvanṯ. _
> _My Guru is the Supreme Lord God; the Guru is the Lord God. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਮੇਰਾ __ਦੇਉ __ਅਲਖ __ਅਭੇਉ __॥_
> _गुरु मेरा देउ अलख अभेउ ॥ _
> _Gur mėrā ḏė&shy;o alakẖ abẖė&shy;o. _
> _My Guru is divine, invisible and mysterious. _
> 
> _ਸਰਬ __ਪੂਜ __ਚਰਨ __ਗੁਰ __ਸੇਉ __॥੧॥_
> _सरब पूज चरन गुर सेउ ॥१॥ _
> _Sarab pūj cẖaran gur sė&shy;o. ||1|| _
> _I serve at the Guru's feet, which are worshipped by all. ||1|| _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਬਿਨੁ __ਅਵਰੁ __ਨਾਹੀ __ਮੈ __ਥਾਉ __॥_
> _गुर बिनु अवरु नाही मै थाउ ॥ _
> _Gur bin avar nāhī mai thā&shy;o. _
> _Without the Guru, I have no other place at all. _
> 
> _ਅਨਦਿਨੁ __ਜਪਉ __ਗੁਰੂ __ਗੁਰ __ਨਾਉ __॥੧॥ __ਰਹਾਉ __॥_
> _अनदिनु जपउ गुरू गुर नाउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ _
> _An&shy;ḏin japa&shy;o gurū gur nā&shy;o. ||1|| rahā&shy;o. _
> _Night and day, I chant the Name of Guru, Guru. ||1||Pause|| _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਮੇਰਾ __ਗਿਆਨੁ __ਗੁਰੁ __ਰਿਦੈ __ਧਿਆਨੁ __॥_
> _गुरु मेरा गिआनु गुरु रिदै धिआनु ॥ _
> _Gur mėrā gi&shy;ān gur riḏai ḏẖi&shy;ān. _
> _The Guru is my spiritual wisdom, the Guru is the meditation within my heart. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਗੋਪਾਲੁ __ਪੁਰਖੁ __ਭਗਵਾਨੁ __॥_
> _गुरु गोपालु पुरखु भगवानु ॥ _
> _Gur gopāl purakẖ bẖagvān. _
> _The Guru is the Lord of the World, the Primal Being, the Lord God. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਕੀ __ਸਰਣਿ __ਰਹਉ __ਕਰ __ਜੋਰਿ __॥_
> _गुर की सरणि रहउ कर जोरि ॥ _
> _Gur kī saraṇ raha&shy;o kar jor. _
> _With my palms pressed together, I remain in the Guru's Sanctuary. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੂ __ਬਿਨਾ __ਮੈ __ਨਾਹੀ __ਹੋਰੁ __॥੨॥_
> _गुरू बिना मै नाही होरु ॥२॥ _
> _Gurū binā mai nāhī hor. ||2|| _
> _Without the Guru, I have no other at all. ||2|| _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਬੋਹਿਥੁ __ਤਾਰੇ __ਭਵ __ਪਾਰਿ __॥_
> _गुरु बोहिथु तारे भव पारि ॥ _
> _Gur bohith ṯārė bẖav pār. _
> _The Guru is the boat to cross over the terrifying world-ocean. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਸੇਵਾ __ਜਮ __ਤੇ __ਛੁਟਕਾਰਿ __॥_
> _गुर सेवा जम ते छुटकारि ॥ _
> _Gur sėvā jam ṯė cẖẖutkār. _
> _Serving the Guru, one is released from the Messenger of Death. _
> 
> _ਅੰਧਕਾਰ __ਮਹਿ __ਗੁਰ __ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ __ਉਜਾਰਾ __॥_
> _अंधकार महि गुर मंत्रु उजारा ॥ _
> _Anḏẖkār meh gur manṯar ujārā. _
> _In the darkness, the Guru's Mantra shines forth. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਕੈ __ਸੰਗਿ __ਸਗਲ __ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ __॥੩॥_
> _गुर कै संगि सगल निसतारा ॥३॥ _
> _Gur kai sang sagal nisṯārā. ||3|| _
> _With the Guru, all are saved. ||3|| _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਪੂਰਾ __ਪਾਈਐ __ਵਡਭਾਗੀ __॥_
> _गुरु पूरा पाईऐ वडभागी ॥ _
> _Gur pūrā pā&shy;ī&shy;ai vadbẖāgī. _
> _The Perfect Guru is found, by great good fortune. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਕੀ __ਸੇਵਾ __ਦੂਖੁ __ਨ __ਲਾਗੀ __॥_
> _गुर की सेवा दूखु न लागी ॥ _
> _Gur kī sėvā ḏūkẖ na lāgī. _
> _Serving the Guru, pain does not afflict anyone. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰ __ਕਾ __ਸਬਦੁ __ਨ __ਮੇਟੈ __ਕੋਇ __॥_
> _गुर का सबदु न मेटै कोइ ॥ _
> _Gur kā sabaḏ na mėtai ko&shy;ė. _
> _No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਹਰਿ __ਸੋਇ __॥੪॥੭॥੯॥_
> _गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥ _
> _Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. ||4||7||9|| _
> _Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||_
> 
> 
> 
> The last line is _Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė_. Har soe? Does that not mean Guru Nanak _is that_?
> 
> 
> If Guru Nanak "is that"? What "is that"? Is it that he is God or he is so perfect that he is merged with God and hence a Gurmukh?


 
Randip Ji thanks for sharing Beautiful Gurbani.

Randip Ji, What is merging with God? In my understanding from the above Shabad and the rest of Gurbani- No difference left. Differentiating means - I am ignoring Guru Bachan.

A few lines above Guru(for das every line of Gurbani is Guru) says- 


_ਗੁਰੁ __ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ __ਸਦਾ __ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ __॥੧॥_
_गुरु पारब्रहमु सदा नमसकारउ ॥१॥ _
_Gur pārbarahm saḏā namaskāra&shy;o. ||1|| _
_Bow in humility forever before the Guru, the Supreme Lord God. ||1|| _

He also says:


_ਗੁਰੁ __ਕਰਤਾ __ਗੁਰੁ __ਕਰਣੈ __ਜੋਗੁ __॥_
_गुरु करता गुरु करणै जोगु ॥ _
_Gur karṯā gur karṇai jog. _
_The Guru is the Creator; the Guru has the power to do everything. _

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ __ਹੈ __ਭੀ __ਹੋਗੁ __॥_
_गुरु परमेसरु है भी होगु ॥ _
_Gur parmėsar hai bẖī hog. _
_The Guru is the Transcendent Lord; He is, and always shall be. _


Thanks for sharing Guru/Guru-Bachan.

Gur Gur Eko Ves Anaik. No difference if I call Him- Nanak or Waheguru or Gobind Singh Granth Sahib. All is Guru Guru Guru. Thanks

VERY SORRY FOR HURTING ANY BODY'S BELIEFS THOSE DONT GO IN LINE WITH me neech's neech beliefs- I said what Guru Ji is teaching me every moment- GUR PARMESAR NAHI BHED .

Tuhada Das
Yograj


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Ambar Ji,

If you're in the mood of debate, take it up with my Forum Team Leader, Sardar Randip Singh Ji. He can take all of you with his little finger. There's only one way to find out. 

Either you're in or you're out - the guts required are in your court. 

May the best man win. Good Luck.

As for me, I will share more Kirtan with you if you decide to stay on. 

Dya Singh (Australia) - Mith Bolera Har Sajan Suami


----------



## Randip Singh

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*



Pyramid said:


> Randip Ji thanks for sharing Beautiful Gurbani.
> 
> Randip Ji, What is merging with God? In my understanding from the above Shabad and the rest of Gurbani- No difference left. Differentiating means - I am ignoring Guru Bachan.
> 
> A few lines above Guru(for das every line of Gurbani is Guru) says-
> 
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ __ਸਦਾ __ਨਮਸਕਾਰਉ __॥੧॥_
> _गुरु पारब्रहमु सदा नमसकारउ ॥१॥ _
> _Gur pārbarahm saḏā namaskāra&shy;o. ||1|| _
> _Bow in humility forever before the Guru, the Supreme Lord God. ||1|| _
> 
> He also says:
> 
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਕਰਤਾ __ਗੁਰੁ __ਕਰਣੈ __ਜੋਗੁ __॥_
> _गुरु करता गुरु करणै जोगु ॥ _
> _Gur karṯā gur karṇai jog. _
> _The Guru is the Creator; the Guru has the power to do everything. _
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ __ਹੈ __ਭੀ __ਹੋਗੁ __॥_
> _गुरु परमेसरु है भी होगु ॥ _
> _Gur parmėsar hai bẖī hog. _
> _The Guru is the Transcendent Lord; He is, and always shall be. _
> 
> 
> Thanks for sharing Guru/Guru-Bachan.
> 
> Gur Gur Eko Ves Anaik. No difference if I call Him- Nanak or Waheguru or Gobind Singh Granth Sahib. All is Guru Guru Guru. Thanks
> 
> VERY SORRY FOR HURTING ANY BODY'S BELIEFS THOSE DONT GO IN LINE WITH me neech's neech beliefs- I said what Guru Ji is teaching me every moment- GUR PARMESAR NAHI BHED .
> 
> Tuhada Das
> Yograj


 
The point I am trying to make is as follows:

1) Do not take one line out of shabad and quote it or the shabad gets distorted.

2) Guru means several things in Sikhi and Bani, Guru = Teacher, Guru = Our Guru's (Guru Nanak) and Guru = God. In order to understand what Guru means in a certain line Bani must be read in context i.e. do not take one line out of a Shabad.

3) The deabte was getting off track. I quoted the original shabad from which the original line was quoted.

Now going back to the debate:

After reading the entire shabad as I have quoted above, the last line is:

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਹਰਿ __ਸੋਇ __॥੪॥੭॥੯॥_
_गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥ _
_Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. ||4||7||9|| _
_Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||_

Now does _Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. _mean _Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself._?

Or is there something lost in translation? For me there is something lost in translation. For me _Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė._ does not mean _Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself_ . It is more like Guru Nanak "is that" or "all of the above", ie.e the qualities of a Gurmukh and the Gurmukh that is merged with God but not God himself?


----------



## pk70

*Re: Is it So??????????????????????????//*



randip singh said:


> The point I am trying to make is as follows:
> 
> 1) Do not take one line out of shabad and quote it or the shabad gets distorted.
> 
> 2) Guru means several things in Sikhi and Bani, Guru = Teacher, Guru = Our Guru's (Guru Nanak) and Guru = God. In order to understand what Guru means in a certain line Bani must be read in context i.e. do not take one line out of a Shabad.
> 
> 3) The deabte was getting off track. I quoted the original shabad from which the original line was quoted.
> 
> Now going back to the debate:
> 
> After reading the entire shabad as I have quoted above, the last line is:
> 
> _ਗੁਰੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਹਰਿ __ਸੋਇ __॥੪॥੭॥੯॥_
> _गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥ _
> _Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. ||4||7||9|| _
> _Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||_
> 
> Now does _Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. _mean _Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself._?
> 
> Or is there something lost in translation? For me there is something lost in translation. For me _Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė._ does not mean _Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself_ . It is more like Guru Nanak "is that" or "all of the above", ie.e the qualities of a Gurmukh and the Gurmukh that is merged with God but not God himself?


 
Randip Singh ji

I must appreciate your understanding of Gurbani in the context of a Shabad in its totality.by taking few line from here and there and taking meaning of a few words literally, people can establish a new religion but that will not be what Satguru Nanak has taught.
Thanks again.


----------



## kaur-1

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



namjap said:


> Ambar Ji,
> 
> He can take all of you with his little finger. There's only one way to find out.
> 
> Either you're in or you're out - the guts required are in your court.



Only Akal Purakh can take anyone out. If you are refering to Guts then please have some guts and budh to reply to our last few queries to you.

_*p/s: BTW I am not ganging up on you.*_

When I metha thek to Guru ji (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) I dont see a difference between Akal Purakh and Guru ji - Eternal Shabad Guru. 

Eka bani ek guru eko shabad vichar


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Forum Rule No. 10 is applicable in Ambar Ji's case.*

*10. Personal Attacks or Sect Bashing:* Do not engage in personal attacks or sect bashing. HATE MESSAGES WILL BE REMOVED WITHOUT NOTICE.


----------



## kaur-1

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

I do not like arguments too. Gives me hearburn.. he he he 

I guess naam jap the confusion arose when you quoted the whole of Balbirs post rather then just the words/tuks "simar manna" that inspired you.

I am going to leave it as that and move on.


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

I quoted the whole post to see who picks the pearls out of it and who goes for the dirt. Sorry I have to say this because the way 'they' were going on - *'my path' and 'your path' being in opposite directions* - calling Pk70's path as Koor (dirt) - I put them to a test. Heh heh 

I'm not saying this as Moderator.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Dear Randeep ji,

Thanks for your posts. The thread has become slightly contentious. Regarding my initial doubt that is in post one , it stands to reason that I stick to the philosophy that God is one and the entire attributes of the God are summed up very nicely in The Mool Mantra and the philosphy of sikhism is reflected in  Jap ji sahib.

We all have the right of interpreting the bani in a manner that it is in line with the entire sikh philosophy. You have answered my post but in a round about manner and and it would be kind of you if you could, in an explicit manner, opine if Guru nanak or for that matter Nanaks are 'waheguru'. Kindly remember if you answer is  Yes, it would be against the sikhism as per that I have learnt and that is little.

Kindly reply briefly and in a pointed manner.



Regards.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Sikh Philosophy: The essence of Translations/interpretations*


*W*e shall be defeating the purpose of interpretation if the meaning assigned is not as per Sikh philosophy. If the meaning assigned does not fall in line with this theme of Sikhism the interpretation should be rechecked and may be rejected in preference to the meaning that is in alignment with the philosophy that is the intent of the Nanaks.

*W*e have no right to change the philosophy lest this beautiful institution be subjected to irreparable damage as that we are posting here today would be read by many afterwards. It is with this thing in mind as well that we should draft our posts with caution.

Sikh80.


I have posted it separately as I feel that there are no guidelines for interpretation and let us not take bani free for all type of interpretations. We are all responsible for that we post as today or tomorrow we shall all learn the Truth, the essence. No one on this forum is Manmukh.


----------



## pk70

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sikh80 ji
I am pleased to see you back !


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

I am working on this article but it shall take lot of time, hence I have posted just few lines from that article that is under process.


If you are not comfortable with my style of writing, kindly take your time in replying.I can always converse with you.

Regards once again Veer ji.
'


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Respected pk 70 ji,

Very many Thanks for the kind words. I had some jobs to be attended to  hence could not have your blessed company.

Warm Regards.


----------



## Randip Singh

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



kaur-1 said:


> Only Akal Purakh can take anyone out. If you are refering to Guts then please have some guts and budh to reply to our last few queries to you.
> 
> _*p/s: BTW I am not ganging up on you.*_
> 
> When I metha thek to Guru ji (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) I dont see a difference between Akal Purakh and Guru ji - Eternal Shabad Guru.
> 
> Eka bani ek guru eko shabad vichar


 
Lets cool down.

Nobody is waving fingers or ganging up.

I am first and foremost a Sikh Historian who has studied patetrns and behavior within Sikhism.

This concept of thinking Guru's are God is not new and emerges from time to time and is a hangover of our Hindu past. At present Sikhism is awash with Vashnavite leaning groups, eg AKJ, GNSSJ, Rarowalay, Namdhari's etc etc, although these groups would never admit it (but a study into their histories verifies this).

In the 18th and 19th Centuries Udasis and Nirmala's ran Sikh Shrines and the Guru's were portrayed as incarnations of Vishnu and Gods themselves. There was an attempt at reform in the early 20th Century vis a vis Uslee Nirankari and Singh Sabha Movement, but this seems to have come unstauch in the 80's to present.

My message is this. Please read Bani in context. I too can take one or two lines out and make out the meaning to be whatever I please, but I try not to. Read Bani in context. Do NOT dismember the Angs.

English translation is not perfect.

The crux of the issue is that what I have quoted above.

Now going back to the debate:

After reading the entire shabad as I have quoted above, the last line is:

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਹਰਿ __ਸੋਇ __॥੪॥੭॥੯॥_
_गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥ _
_Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. ||4||7||9|| _
_Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||_

Now does _Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. _mean _Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself._?

Or is there something lost in translation? For me there is something lost in translation. For me _Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė._ does not mean _Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself_ . It is more like Guru Nanak "is that" or "all of the above", ie.e the qualities of a Gurmukh and the Gurmukh that is merged with God but not God himself?


----------



## Randip Singh

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sikh80 said:


> Dear Randeep ji,
> Thanks for your posts. The thread has become slightly contentious. Regarding my initial doubt that is in post one , it stands to reason that I stick to the philosophy that God is one and the entire attributes of the God are summed up very nicely in The Mool Mantra and the philosphy of sikhism is reflected in Jap ji sahib.
> We all have the right of interpreting the bani in a manner that it is in line with the entire sikh philosophy. You have answered my post but in a round about manner and and it would be kind of you if you could, in an explicit manner, opine if Guru nanak or for that matter Nanaks are 'waheguru'. Kindly remember if you answer is Yes, it would be against the sikhism as per that I have learnt and that is little.
> Kindly reply briefly and in a pointed manner.
> Regards.




Sorry I don't understand your question.


The word "Waheguru" is a term used for God, or ultimate teacher, but there is nothing stopping people using it for a teacher. Again this word must be viewed in context.​


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Randip Ji,


I was just reading you on another thread: you said:


> What you have stated is the 64 million dollar question. What constitutes a metaphor and what is to be taken literally.
> 
> A way of training ones mind into what is a metaphor in Bani are Bhai Gurdas's Vars eg:
> 
> 
> _Just as one has to tie pail`s neck while taking out water_​
> ,
> _Just as to get Mani, snake is to be killed_​
> 
> _Just as to get Kasturi from deer`s neck, deer is to be killed_
> _Just as to get oil, oil seeds are to be crushed_
> _To get kernel, pomegranate is to be broken_
> _Similarly to correct senseless people, sword has to be taken up._ ​
> *Bhai Gurdas, Var-34, pauri 13*​
> 
> 
> 
> Bhai Gurdas's Vars are called the key for a reason to Bani. They trains one's mind into the metaphor mindset.​


 
Here are my two cents about Bhai Gurdas Ji:

Randip Ji Bhai Gurdas Ji also tells:


*Quote:*
*( Bhai Gurdas Ji is talking about God and Guru):*

*hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY gur prmySr eyko jwxY] *
Quote:
*hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY dUjw Bwau n AwxY]*
*hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Aaugx kIqy gux prvwxY]*
*hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY mMdw iksY n AwK vKwxY]*
*hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Awp Tgwey lokW BwxY]*
*hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY praupkwr krY rMg mwxY]*
*lau bwlI drgwh ivc mwx inmwxwmwx inmwxY]*
*gur pUrw gur Sbd is\wxY ]õ]*

*I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who accepts Guru and God as one.*
*I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who does not allow the sense of duality to enter in him.*
*I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who understands the evil done to him as good one.*
*I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who never speaks ill of anyone.*
*I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who is ready to suffer loss for the sake of others.*
*I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who enjoys doing altruistic activities.*
*Such a humble person understanding the Word of Guru, himself becomes the perfect Guru.*
English Translations are provided for non Punjabi readers. Source: SikhiToTheMax 


In the first line he conveys the message of both Guru and God are the same one.
In second line he confirms that -NO OTHER- so not different at all. There cant be 'TWO'.

SECOND LOVE IS NOT GOOD.
NO DUALTY.



We are supposed to love Guru. - ONE LOVE
We are taught to love God by Guru- ONE LOVE
If we are loving Lord God as a seperate Entity- THERE WE ARE LOVING 'TWO'.

WHEN THERE IS NO SECOND- HOW 'TWO' LOVES.


me moorakh- Sardara


----------



## Randip Singh

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sardara123 said:


> Randip Ji,
> 
> 
> I was just reading you on another thread: you said:
> 
> 
> Here are my two cents about Bhai Gurdas Ji:
> 
> Randip Ji Bhai Gurdas Ji also tells:
> 
> 
> *Quote:*
> *( Bhai Gurdas Ji is talking about God and Guru):*
> 
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY gur prmySr eyko jwxY] *
> Quote:
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY dUjw Bwau n AwxY]*
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Aaugx kIqy gux prvwxY]*
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY mMdw iksY n AwK vKwxY]*
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Awp Tgwey lokW BwxY]*
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY praupkwr krY rMg mwxY]*
> *lau bwlI drgwh ivc mwx inmwxwmwx inmwxY]*
> *gur pUrw gur Sbd is\wxY ]õ]*
> 
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who accepts Guru and God as one.*
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who does not allow the sense of duality to enter in him.*
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who understands the evil done to him as good one.*
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who never speaks ill of anyone.*
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who is ready to suffer loss for the sake of others.*
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who enjoys doing altruistic activities.*
> *Such a humble person understanding the Word of Guru, himself becomes the perfect Guru.*
> English Translations are provided for non Punjabi readers. Source: SikhiToTheMax
> 
> 
> In the first line he conveys the message of both Guru and God are the same one.
> In second line he confirms that -NO OTHER- so not different at all. There cant be 'TWO'.
> 
> SECOND LOVE IS NOT GOOD.
> NO DUALTY.
> 
> 
> 
> We are supposed to love Guru. - ONE LOVE
> We are taught to love God by Guru- ONE LOVE
> If we are loving Lord God as a seperate Entity- THERE WE ARE LOVING 'TWO'.
> 
> WHEN THERE IS NO SECOND- HOW 'TWO' LOVES.
> 
> 
> me moorakh- Sardara


 
So you are saying the term Guru is being used to described a physical Guru or being used to describe God?

Also we need to see the tranlitration alongside with this english translation, because as been demonstrated earlier ("is that"), that English translation can be wrong or innacurate.


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



randip singh said:


> So you are saying the term Guru is being used to described a physical Guru or being used to describe God?
> 
> Also we need to see the tranlitration alongside with this english translation, because as been demonstrated earlier ("is that"), that English translation can be wrong or innacurate.


 
If you are a 'SIKH'

I think that you should know that there is nothing Physical- related to Sikhi Knowledge. Physical is Trigun. Not allowed to be loved as a seperate entity.

Your question about Physical Guru points towards your believe in PHYSICAL GURU EXISTANCE. 

THNAKYOU THANKYOU THANKYOU .


----------



## Randip Singh

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sardara123 said:


> If you are a 'SIKH'.


 
My friend.

 Keep the debate civil.

Don't make personal remarks like this again.



Sardara123 said:


> I think that you should know that there is nothing Physical- related to Sikhi Knowledge. Physical is Trigun. Not allowed to be loved as a seperate entity.
> 
> Your question about Physical Guru points towards your believe in PHYSICAL GURU EXISTANCE.
> 
> THNAKYOU THANKYOU THANKYOU .


 
The problem I am seeing with your posts is that you are not following the entire debate. Try scrolling through the debate and picking up my views not just excerpts.

As stated earlier and another thread the word Sikh must be contextualised. My belief is simple, our physical Guru's were not God or God's. In Bani the word Guru can be used to describe a myriad of things. Read my other post and post in one thread. This is getting tiresome.


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

We cant debate Guru Word. Sorry.

I just shared my understanding , that Guru Himself has given. 

Sorry for making an attempt to Share.

ALL IS HAPPENING WITH HIS WILL.

No Sikh debate Guru Word. They SHARE.

RAL MIL KHAVO KHARCHO BHAEE, TOT NA AAVAY VADHADHO JAAEE.


----------



## Randip Singh

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sardara123 said:


> We cant debate Guru Word. Sorry.
> 
> I just shared my understanding , that Guru Himself has given.
> 
> Sorry for making an attempt to Share.
> 
> ALL IS HAPPENING WITH HIS WILL.


 
Ofcourse you can debate it.

People come to this site to learn and share, and we do this through civilised debate.

The word Guru is often confused by people and there are many people who think that by using the word Guru in Bani we are saying worship physical Guru's i.e. Guru Naka to Guru Gobind Singh ji, clearly not the Sikh mesage.


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Me neech moorakh, DONT DEBATE on GURU SHABAD.

I listen to Guru and take His Word as 'IS', 'WAS' and 'WILL BE'.

Yes, I share and once in while when I see things mentioned against that Truth, I give reference from Gurbani and try to tell the truth.

It is upto the other party, if they want to listen or not- TO GURU SHABD.

GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR DEBATES.


----------



## Randip Singh

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sardara123 said:


> Me neech moorakh, DONT DEBATE on GURU SHABAD.
> 
> I listen to Guru and take His Word as 'IS', 'WAS' and 'WILL BE'.
> 
> Yes, I share and once in while when I see things mentioned against that Truth, I give reference from Gurbani and try to tell the truth.
> 
> It is upto the other party, if they want to listen or not- TO GURU SHABD.
> 
> GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR DEBATES.


 
If you do not debate Guru Shabad, then what is the point of you posting here?


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sharing


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



AmbarDhara said:


> Sukhmani Sahib Ji:
> 
> "Jin Prabh Jaata su sobhavant"
> Those who know the Lord are Glorious.
> 
> 
> See you all in a few months
> 
> be


 
he he:}{}{}:  me too


----------



## Randip Singh

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Sardara123 said:


> Sharing


 
if you come to share then be prepared to be challenged in what you share.


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



randip singh said:


> If you do not debate Guru Shabad, then what is the point of you posting here?


 
I said



> sharing


 
You said




> if you come to share then be prepared to be challenged in what you share.


 
:}{}{}:Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou:}{}{}:

Good luck with your challanges, debates and ALL.


----------



## Sardara123

*Re: Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



paapi_banda said:


> WJKK
> WJKF
> 
> *"Jot Roop HAR Aap Guru Nanak Kahayio"*
> SGGS, *Ang (1408)*
> 
> *"The Lord Almighty caused Himself to be called as Guru Nanak"*
> 
> Veer, I hope this will clear ur doubt.
> 
> Gurfatehh


 
Thankyou.
Guru Shabad is ALL LOVE- ULTIMATE TRUTH.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*1*.*I*f Nanaks are God HIMSELF/THEMSELVESas stated [1] ;

*And*


*2*.*I*f Lord Krishna is God HIMSELF as stated in Geeta; 

*T*_hen_

*3*.*O*n a wider canvas Sikhism is only aberration of Hinduism [2].


*And it Leads to*


*T*hat Sikhism as good as Hinduism [3] 


*T*_hen_

*4*.*S*ikhs are Keshdhari Hindus [4].

*I* do not hold this view that Sikh Gurus are God [5]. 

*Further *



*5.If we say that NANAKs are GOD*


*Then*


*G*uru Gobind ji’s Shabad given below:


*M*_ein hoon param Purukh ko dasa………_ _Sab narak kund….._

*W*ould become superfluous. [6] 

[*a*nd it cannot be, No part of ’s shabad uttered by Guru ji can be/ is redundant or superfluous. Hence the statement made at Sl.1 is not correct.]

*T*his is the way I think.Please let me know as to what do you think* R*andip ji.I would stand corrected if I have omitted something.

*R*egards







[1] *A*s stated by many here in the posts ‘Guru and God no difference’ and ‘Guru nanak is the Guru and the Lord’. I have taken the assumption that Nanaks are God based on the conclusions of other two threads where the moderator of the site has also confirmed, being a moderator her words weigh heavier than others.]


[2] *W*here the author of the script calls himself God. However it is also not correct as Gurus have criticized the Vedas and the rituals of Hindus as meaning less and Vedas as only part of ‘Maya’.]


[3] *T*his also cannot be the case as Guru Sahibaan always rejected Hinduism.

[4] *W*hy make a big deal against Khushwant Singh and also about the views of Indian Government also contained and confirmed in Indian constitution. Hence this cannot be the case.


[5] *T*hey might have had some very specific and very limited functions i.e. to spread the message thru. Bani that is enshrined and contained in Granth sahib. And in that context they might have stated them to be representative/messengers or even Avtars of God as contained in Swaiye as is sung by Bhatts, the poets.



[6] *T*here is no entry of Guru Gobind singh ji ,Dasam Patshahi, in Granth sahib.
*I*t just confirms that Gurus never wanted to be called as Gods for any reason, whatsoever, including namrata/nimrata/humility. We cannot establish after 500+ years as to whether it was in humility or otherwise. 
*T*he shabad of Guru Gobind Sahib ji would be rendered as redundant. As it cannot be, it proves to any mind with a little analytical power to admit that GURUs never wanted them to be called as God. May be they were or they were not is besides the point of discussion. Let it be left to the Sikh philosophy. I may think that they were God ,but it is very private and not an opinion that I should advertise on a forum. Let us not discuss this topic unless the Moderators are interested due to some other justifiable reasons and I may kindly be excused for anything that might have offended some of you.
__________________
*~~~**Satnaam sri WaheGuru**~~~*


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Quoted below is an opinion of a very Senior member Of SPN reg; the Mool Mantra and  its significance.

It is taken from other thread.

*********************************************************

Sikh 80 ji

In Mool Mantra you have just quoted above, Guru Sahib has given a few qualities of our Creator. No other one has all those qualities. Of course, that is what Sikhism is known about its concept of God. Repeatedly this concept of God is expressed in Guru Granth Sahib ji. To go against this concept of God is to go against basic principle of Sikhism.
Rememer, Mool Mantra is also answering a lot of questions about Almighty/Waheguru. 		 	 		 		 		 		 		 		 			 				__________________
				HAR bisrat sda khuari Mehla 5
  pk70
*******************************************************


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Vaar 1 Pauri 23 Coming of the Guru*​ ਸੁਣੀ ਪੁਕਾਰਿ ਦਾਤਾਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਗ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ । 
The benefactor Lord listened to the cries (of humanity) and sent Guru Nanak to this world.

*********************************************************

It is also self-explanatory that GOD sent the GURU.
These are two entities at this point .May be Guru ji merged with the lord.It has been stated by many in this thread.

*Conclusion*: One has to read the scripture 'as whole' and not in part if one has to assign some meaning to some lines that convey more than one meaning as in the present case.

Literal translation without context may not be appropriate.

I have participated in the discussion to the extent possible and quoted as per the resources available. 


Bhul Chuk Mauf


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

I started this thread and I am fully convinced that Sardara123 and all those who have stated that 'Gurus are God' are perfectly alright.

I am very grateful to all those who contributed to this thread. I have no interest to carry on further. I have got my answer.

The Moderators may like to take the necessary action to close this or let it be carried forward.It is not my decision.


----------



## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Speaking as mod, Sikh80 ji

This is a popular thread, very popular. It will most likely be popular for some time to come. Why close it? You have found what you are looking for.That is a great thing! Still others are looking. Perhaps they will find it.


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*





Bhai Harbans Singh Ji (Jagadhari Wale) - Gun Gava Nit Nit Sadh Har Ke
Pakistani Artist Kamal - Guru Nanak Tere Gun Gava




Bhai Telvinder Singh - Mere Gobinda Gun Gava Tripata Man Hove


----------



## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Nam Jap,

It is always the kirtaan that goes right to the center of the heart like an arrow. It is what got me hooked in the first place. It is what keeps me stuck in this place.

He is the fisherman; I am the fish -- there are such tuks in Gurbani that explain this helplessness.


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Aad Ji,

Thank you for everything I went thru - you were beside me and Aman Ji too. Kirtan is truly beautiful and appreciated most when we're feeling especially down or depressed. Kaur-1 Ji is a good person but I don't know why we reacted adversely to each other. Could it be that because we are very similar in nature ?


----------



## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Nam Jap,

I am glad you are feeling stronger -- WHEW!!!  How many billion people are there in the world? This one and that one are not always going to hit it off. 

And actually, if all x billion of us were completely in agreement all the time it would be very weird -- like zombie-land. Also the downside of Internet communication is that one cannot tell what the true intention and emotion is behind the words, so misunderstandings are inevitable.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*


you can listen to vast deptness of japji sahib - http://www.gurmatveechar.com/katha.php?k=gts 


kindly refer to the katha at the above link/post.


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*







Bhai Harbans Singh Ji (Jagadhari Wale) - Sabh Te Vadaa








Sant Anoop Singh Ji - Hamra Thakur Sabh Te Ucha








Prof Surinder Singh - Sabh Te Wadh Samrath Gurdev


----------



## Astroboy

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*





This book is available on SPN BOOKS STORE.
Check it out.


----------



## pk70

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

*Sikh80 Ji*
*First of all thanks for sharing interpretation by Gyani ji.*
*About Gyani ji I have no knowledge but interpreting Gurbani with fabricated stories is not healthy because it has a message which cannot be altered at all, if one does, contradictions appear, the totality of Guru message should be kept in mind while interpreting. Gurbani was revealed to Guru ji, how it came to them, and how it came on paper, we don’t know, it was highly unlikable that when ever any thing happened around Guru ji, he started expressing it through Gurbani. One example is” Mohan tere ooche…..Mehla 5” It is not addressed to that Mohan, a relative of Guru ji but the Creator. There is no possibility that so high level of praise can be addressed to mortals. If there are names of any one, it is nothing more than a reference, actual praise or credit is to Him. Every word used as medium of Guru Message( especially by Mehl 1) has some thing to say more. Let’s look at one Guru Vaak*
*“ gave ko daat janai nisaan    gave ko gun vaddiaee chaar” English translation takes both words “daat” and “ nisaan” as “gift” but it is more than that.  Daat is gift or blessing but Nisaan is more than daat/gift. Guru ji says some sing praises of Him as per His gift and keep it as His “token of love” ( jaanai nisaan). Token of love keeps melting our emotions and love for Him keeps glowing.  Then  comes "one praises His great virtues and their beauty". Bottom line is, the more purified love for Him is in the heart, the more chances are to have experiencing Him with His bliss. I have tried to say what I feel in this context other than Gyani ji who keeps quoting stories even when they are not necessary. Enjoy the following Guru Vaak in which Guru ji makes clear many illusions about liberation with His bliss and ponder over how the rest talk becomes immaterial  !!!!*


[/FONT]ਭਨਤਿ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਭਨਤਿਨਾਨਕੁ [/FONT]ਕਰੇ [/FONT]ਵੀਚਾਰੁ [/FONT][/FONT]॥ 
[/FONT]भनति [/FONT]नानकु [/FONT]करे [/FONT]वीचारु [/FONT]॥ 
[/FONT]Bẖanaṯ Nānak karė vīcẖār. 
[/FONT]Says Nanak, if some one embraces Lord's meditation,[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਗੁਰੂ [/FONT]ਜੀ [/FONT]ਆਖਦੇ [/FONT]ਹਨ, [/FONT]ਜੇਕਰ [/FONT]ਕੋਈ [/FONT]ਜਣਾ [/FONT]ਸਾਹਿਬ [/FONT]ਦੀ [/FONT]ਬੰਦਗੀ [/FONT]ਧਾਰਨ [/FONT]ਕਰ [/FONT]ਲਵੇ,[/FONT] 

[/FONT]ਸਾਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਬਾਣੀਸਿਉ [/FONT]ਧਰੇ [/FONT]ਪਿਆਰੁ [/FONT][/FONT]॥ 
[/FONT]साची [/FONT]बाणी [/FONT]सिउ [/FONT]धरे [/FONT]पिआरु [/FONT]॥ 
[/FONT]Sācẖī baṇī si*o ḏẖarė pi*ār. 
[/FONT]and enshrines affection for the True Gurbani,[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਅਤੇ "[/FONT]ਸੱਚੀ [/FONT]ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ" [/FONT]ਪਿਰਹੜੀ [/FONT]ਪਾ [/FONT]ਲਵੇ,[/FONT] 

[/FONT]ਤਾ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਤਾਕੋ [/FONT]ਪਾਵੈ [/FONT]ਮੋਖ [/FONT]ਦੁਆਰੁ [/FONT][/FONT]॥ 
[/FONT]ता [/FONT]को [/FONT]पावै [/FONT]मोख [/FONT]दुआरु [/FONT]॥ 
[/FONT]Ŧā ko pāvai mokẖ ḏu*ār. 
[/FONT]then alone attains he to the gate of salvation.[/FONT] 
[/FONT]ਤਦ [/FONT]ਉਹ [/FONT]ਮੁਕਤੀ [/FONT]ਦੇ [/FONT]ਦਰਵਾਜੇ [/FONT]ਨੂੰ [/FONT]ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ [/FONT]ਕਰ [/FONT]ਲੈਂਦਾ [/FONT]ਹੈ। 
[/FONT]  ਜਪੁ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜਪੁਤਪੁ [/FONT]ਸਭੁ [/FONT]ਇਹੁ [/FONT]ਸਬਦੁ [/FONT]ਹੈ [/FONT]ਸਾਰੁ [/FONT][/FONT]॥੫॥੨॥੪॥ 
जपु तपु सभु इहु सबदु है सारु ॥५॥२॥४॥ 
Jap ṯap sabẖ ih sabaḏ hai sār. ||5||2||4|| 
This meditation of the Lord is the essence of all the worship and penances. 
ਸਾਈਂ ਦੀ ਇਹ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਸਾਰੀਆਂ ਉਪਾਸ਼ਨਾਂ ਤੇ ਤਪੱਸਿਆ ਦਾ ਨਿਚੋੜ ਹੈ।


 [/FONT]


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

I do respect your opinion. However, this katha is very popular at all the Boards. I am just posting it as a view of someone who must have devoted quite a time on this.
if there is something objectionable ,let it be informed .I shall stop it.


regards


----------



## pk70

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Quote "I do respect your opinion. However, this katha is very popular at all the Boards. I am just posting it as a view of someone who must have devoted quite a time on this.
if there is something objectionable ,let it be informed .I shall stop it.
 
regards

*Sikh80 Ji*

*I wonder why my comments forced you to think that way. You are doing a wonderful job by sharing all different kinds of interpretations of different people on SPN; I never meant what you thought. Please keep up this good job. The reason I thanked you in the beginning was to give you hint not to take personal. Unfortunately it didnt work. Hope you can ignore my comments and continue contributing. Sincere thanks.*


----------



## nrkalee

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Dear sir: 
I am sorry to burst your private little bubble. But Nanak is not God. For that matter, he is not even a proper guru. If you study his teachings carefully, you will find to your disappointment that Nanak was merely home grown 'godman.' He had a liking for this line of activity, a fondness to wandering about singing bhajans, etc., but at the end of the day, he simply was not qualified, or bona fide for the simple reason that he did not learn his ideologies from an established school of thought. Rather, he borrowed his ideologies for here there and everywhere and made up his own private version. 
The science of self realization is a subtle science. Most think that they can ‘wing it.’ but really, you can’t. You may not be able to discern it. But those who know, will immediately tell you, “this man is winging it.” He does not really know. 
So, don’t be a idiot and make him God now.  

Thank you


----------



## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Presumably you can offer sources, than personal or subjective ones, for your opinions stated thus below.


----------



## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Moderator aadji,

I think the gentleman requires another thread where he can be listened to. In the past also he has not shown any respect to Gurus.

He may kindly be asked to begin a new thread and i hope he shall have his audience.Right now I am posting Katha and if it happens for some more time my effort shall be diluted.



Warm Regards


----------



## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sikh80 ji,

I understand and am aware. Actually I am watching to see if some parts of the discussion need to move to Interfaith Dialogs.


----------



## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



nrkalee said:


> Sorry, I cannot understand your comment. But, tell you what. Post 10 of Nanak's teachings (either you can or anybody else) and I will attempt to show you how they do not make up a cohesive ideology, and are in fact nothing more than a collection of borrowed bits that sounds impressive (they are after all, good bits), but ultimately does not make an bona fide and acceptable philosophical presentation.



I will tell you this mrkalee -- Your statements can be refuted in their entirety. However, this conversation has occurred many times on SPN in one form or another. So basically we would be going back over old terrain. And it would be a useless exercise where you and I are concerned because you are not going to change your mind and neither am I.  Other forum members who want to explore this issue can do so based on related threads that abound in the forum. So with that, please consider moving that which you want to discuss to Interfaith Dialogs. 

Here is my reasoning. The forum we are now conversing in is Gurmat Vichaar. Gurmat Vichaar has a specific meaning. Critiques of Gurbani can go elsewhere, but they do not belong in the Gurmat Vichaar forum.


----------



## Parma

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

This discussion is useless. If god is *formless*, *undescribable*, *timeless, nameless*. Then each and every one of our depictions of god is correct. At the same point we are also all wrong. Only pray with the true name. Mann and Matth Keep control of them both. What if we are all god. What if we are not. What if guru is god. What if guru is not. What if there is no one description. Each and every path seems different the path is just to be PURE. It just all seems as a guide to be PURE of the mind body and soul Sikhism and other religion aswell. Life is just different journeys with a path to be PURE, just like when your a baby to go through life with the qualities of one i guess (You know what I mean Pure innocent, natural). Life makes you who you are before you learn the ways of the world I guess the natural human is a pure being. As a child of god. Guess we are all gods children. Maybe I am wrong. Who really is wright? Forget the discussion it cannot be won. The more you look at the depths of this discussion on god the more you understand god is Unexplicable, that is why god is not just exclusive to the guru's and they have taught us all on the same path to get to the same being they have experienced. Something you can not win either way there is no answer for it, like I once thought. I have grown, Surinder ji THANKS FOR THE ENLIGHTENMENT. Wherever i go, whatever i do, whatever i feel, i see god in each and everything. More important question to ask would be to ask, WHAT GOD IS NOT? Where does god not exisit? What is god not in?


----------



## pk70

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

QUOTE nrkalee
 Dear sir: 
I am sorry to burst your private little bubble.
*You haven’t done anything save for a display of your limited understanding about Sikhism.*

   But Nanak is not God. 
*A lot of Sikhs revere Guru Nanak as a Guru exceptionally able to lead to Truth which was covered with dreamer’s scriptures before him. So, first you must understand this very truth.*
  For that matter, he is not even a proper guru.
*Obviously your word” proper” says it all, in the context of Guru, even this word “ proper” doesn’t suit in negative way either; it should be either true Guru or fake Guru.*

   If you study his teachings carefully, you will find to your disappointment that Nanak was merely home grown 'godman.'
* Home grown Godman? Are there any out of space Godmen too? Are you shy of naming them? Obviously it is your hate that oozes out instead of showing any reason to support your views; dreamers can never realize the reality of centuries, still they are in slumber as numerous were before Guru Nanak.*

   He had a liking for this line of activity,
*You have just admitted that Guru Nanak had a  line of activity, do you see the originality can never be covered up with hate coming of frustrated mind*? *Here* *I remember* *Arya Smaji Daya Nand’s frustration and hatred very similar to yours.*
   a fondness to wandering about singing bhajans, etc.,
*Singing Bhajan, of the almighty is quite contrary to prevailed trade in religion in his times; that only makes Him original by your own statement. If Guru Nanak had not started this, a lot of Indian population would have been serving in desert as slaves even today, he deserves thanks at least.*

   but at the end of the day, he simply was not qualified, or bona fide for the simple reason that he did not learn his ideologies from an established school of thought. Rather, he borrowed his ideologies for here there and everywhere and made up his own private version. 
*Spirituality achievement doesn’t come with special schools, if it had been like that, Hindus would have been leaders of the world today in religious field but sadly they are well known as worshipers of deities and promoters of disgusting tradition of caste system and exploitation of common people in context of religion and social set up. What kind of science and spirituality you are talking about? Many prophets of big religions were not trained in a school. *
*Immanuel Kant, one of the great philosophic system builders of all times, comes face to face with this question” what is knowledge?’ and how it is possible?” What really can we know and how?” He concludes that we can know only through experiences ( S.E. Frost Jr). That limits the idea of school for spiritual pursuit. Spirituality is totally wrapped in personal experience not in the curriculum of any school.
*The science of self realization is a subtle science. Most think that they can ‘wing it.’ but really, you can’t. You may not be able to discern it. But those who know, will immediately tell you, “this man is winging it.” He does not really know.
*He is not winging but tearing apart established dominance of so called educated hypocrites. First time, as put by Dr Iqbal, a Muslim scholar and poet compliments on dominance of Guru Nanak in the field of religion in India”, Hindustan was awakened  a by a real man(Guru Nanak) from deep slumber". Your spiritual scientists did it otherwise if you are really aware of it.*


So, don’t be a idiot and make him God now.
*As told earlier Guru Nanak is highly revered by Sikhs as their true Guru , you are saying they are calling Him God, you neither understand metaphor nor what Sikhs revere about Guru Nanak, tell me who has proved to be idiot? They or you? Answer of this should run a sad feeling through inflated egoist.*
*We are aware of those well known who are  accepted and worshiped even  after their well known lustrous behavior ( some peoples call them Gods or what ever); we just respect them as per their wish unlike you to stoop low and question them, Sikhs are taught to respect others by the same one you are questioning. Guru Nanak was/ is highly revered by not only Sikhs but Muslims as well as per historical facts. So don’t display idiotic display of your small mind. One needs to grow up to deal with other religions with due respect today ( a time which is desperately in need of world harmony) . And, Guru Nanak is very much right in saying to all including you too.

*ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੋਨੀ ਥਾਕੇ ਭੇਖੀ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥ 
parr parr panddith monee thhaakae bhaekhee mukath n paaee ||
Reading and studying continually, the Pandits

 the religious scholars, and the silent sages have grown weary; wearing religious robes, liberation is not obtained( *Foot note: .Because they practiced and preached hypocrisy)

*
ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤੀ ਜਗੁ ਬਉਰਾਨਾ ਸਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਈ ॥੩॥ 
naanak bin bhagathee jag bouraanaa sachai sabadh milaaee ||3||
O Nanak, without devotional worship, the world has gone insane; through the True Word of the Shabad, one meets the Lord. ||3||440( *Footnote: It is not matter of Schools but the true longing for HIM infused by Guru otherwise lost souls keep doing what ever they like, hence Guru Nanak’s ideology is not an arena of academic Pundits but spiritual experience of Almighty  to which a few will attain that special ability to rise to that level of experiencing HIM; and, there fore  gentleman/madam, Caravan goes on and dogs keep barking.)*


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## Parma

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Same way I must add that you cannot conform god to one singular thing. God is just not one form has no form as stated in the mool mantar. Just Guru Nanak alone I would not say is waheguru. Very complicated issue but very simple aswell. You can conform god to so many varities of thinking as god is infinate. Only guru nanak says to think about god through the essence of namm. Waheguru


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## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sikh80 ji

Thank you for taking time each week or so to post these kathas. Each one has several nuggets of important reflection.

Sat Nam


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## sidhu_james

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Dear Sikh 80 ji, 
SSAkal.

The questions coming in your mind are very logical. I am afraid Sister Surinder's answers aren't convincing, with all due respects to her. In the Granth Sahib, our respected Gurus have professed themselves as sinners. They clearly say they are seeking forgiveness of their sins. Guru Arjan Dev says i worship the Creator who has created me in my mother's womb. All my life i have been a devout follower of Sikhism, but now i am not convinced about many areas. The questions cropping in your mind trouble me also. What if the Gurus were dead serious and have really declared themselves unworthy of worship? Aren't we then commiting a folly by blindly following them as Gurus, and idol worshipping them? All the Gurus point towards the Creator. They say Shabad hi Guru hai. 

In fact what disturbed me was the fact that much of the text in Granth Sahib has been copied from the Bible. If i as a Sikh take pride in my religion, and Gurus, why do my Gurus need to copy something from a different Holy Book, that is much older than theirs. 

In the beginning was word, and word was with God, and word was God...now this text first appeared in Bible and then in Granth Sahib, i have discovered this. Then in one of the verses in Granth, Gurus say that they will worship the Word that was taken alive to heaven....something like Panch tatva da Putla Nanak....Shabad mera Guru Jo Jeevit Gaya Aasmaan.

What was Nank Ji trying to say here? Who has gone alive to heaven. If someone has gone alive to heaven, then definitely that Shabad (Word) must have come to earth also....a very logical assumption. Now if that Word became flesh, and came to earth, then it must be God incarnated. Now none of our Gurus have made a claim that they are God. They have sought forgiveness of their sins from Waheguru, the Almighty. Suppose my Gurus were trying to show me a way? 

So in my attempts i came across some verses in Bible where Jesus maakes claims, that He is the way, the truth, the life. There is no other way to Almighty except through me (Jesus). 

Now i do not these claims in any other Holy Book. The point to ponder is, why did Jesus make these claims? Who gave Him the authority to say such things? Naturally a person with authority would make such statements. Why did my Gurus not say such things? Why not a single surety that they will take me to heaven? 

Why do my Gurus need forgiveness of sins, as they claim. And if they need forgiveness, whom are they seeking forgivenss from? Who can forgive their sins? First i though that it must be Waheguru. But then how do i talk to the Waheguru? I also need my sins forgiven, like my Gurus. So i came across these verses in Bible where Jesus says that He has been given the authority to forgive sins, by Heavenly Father. I find this talk pretty straight forward. Jesus Himself is not seeking forgiveness of sins but He is grants forgiveness. He is sinless whereas my Gurus say they are sinners.   

I am not a Christian but i have pondered over these startling discoveries. Am i worshipping the wrong Gurus? Why my Gurus say that whoever worships us will go to hell ( ghor narak) ? I don't wanna end up my life in hell!! I want to go to heaven! 

There are other verses also which seem confusing. We just can't blindly assume that Nank is Waheguru Himself. That would be just assuming things. Let's try to get logical, for a change.


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## mkm

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

The questions coming in your mind are very logical. I am afraid Sister Surinder's answers aren't convincing, with all due respects to her. In the Granth Sahib, our respected Gurus have professed themselves as sinners. They clearly say they are seeking forgiveness of their sins. Guru Arjan Dev says i worship the Creator who has created me in my mother's womb. All my life i have been a devout follower of Sikhism, but now i am not convinced about many areas. The questions cropping in your mind trouble me also. What if the Gurus were dead serious and have really declared themselves unworthy of worship? Aren't we then commiting a folly by blindly following them as Gurus, and idol worshipping them? All the Gurus point towards the Creator. They say Shabad hi Guru hai. 

sidhu-james ji

As far as I know Guru ji where ever says that he is low he is a sinner, it doesnt mean it is admission of any sin, actually it is humble behaviour, also it is about the general people( HAM MAILE TU UJJAL KARTA, HAM-WE). So do not understand it in a wrong way, I cannot recall now what in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it is said like WAHEGURU, Guru ji is also beyond error. Guru Nanak is our Guru Ji and WAHEGURU is what we seek.


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## lalihayer

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*

Sidhu_james ji, you made some amazing claims. I don't have time to refute everything you said, but I could not stop myself from answering some of your doubts.
*"In fact what disturbed me was the fact that much of the text in Granth Sahib has been copied from the Bible. If i as a Sikh take pride in my religion, and Gurus, why do my Gurus need to copy something from a different Holy Book, that is much older than theirs."*
That's new. Guru Granth is copy of bible?. So you claim Gurus copied bible. I know most of Abrahamic religions have things in common, but I never heard claim from missionaries that Guru Granth is copy of Bible.
*"He is sinless whereas my Gurus say they are sinners."*
Gurus are just being humble praying in front of Lord. Everybody is lesser than Him. 
Don't forget whole Guru Granth is written in poetry. Lot of times gurus call soul a bride of Lord. So you think they mean it literally. Guru Nanak always put emphasis on one's actions. Read Japji again. Guru gave us humans a way to reach Waheguru, but we have to put Guru's advice into our actions. There is no doubt Guru Nanak became one with Lord, as Guru Granth contains many tuks written by later Guru Sahibs and Bhatts. But he never came straight into a virgin's womb as claimed for Jesus by your christian fellows. And quotes you are giving from bible are written by people centuries after his crucification. 
I think you find deal offered by bible more attractive as Jesus (if he existed) is promising you heaven and eternal life without any action from you. On the other hand Nanak's way to God is attained through your deeds and conviction.


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## pk70

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



sidhu_james said:


> Dear Sikh 80 ji,
> SSAkal.
> 
> *Sikh 80 is not available obviously let me comment on your comments*
> The questions coming in your mind are very logical.
> * Whose mind? If in your mind, they are not very logical surprisingly, I shall prove it.*
> . In the Granth Sahib, our respected Gurus have professed themselves as sinners.
> Revealed Gurbani is not any kind of confession but a humble way to address to the Creator. In Gurbani, ego is main target through out Gurbani. It is not spoken always on behalf  Guru ji only but also on behalf of all. Prayer for every one is made.
> They clearly say they are seeking forgiveness of their sins. Guru Arjan Dev says i worship the Creator who has created me in my mother's womb.
> *It is called complete surrender by being ego less( I-ness), nothing more than that. It is said all in Love and in being in love. There is no statement there but a deep genius poetic display of revealed Truth who had it, not based on hear say*
> All my life i have been a devout follower of Sikhism
> ‘*That is not true because devout Sikh goes beyond imaginative doubts, your questions prove otherwise*
> , but now i am not convinced about many areas. The questions cropping in your mind trouble me also. What if the Gurus were dead serious and have really declared themselves unworthy of worship?
> *Guru ji never advocates self worshiping save for respect, from where you are getting this is beyond my comprehension.*
> Aren't we then commiting a folly by blindly following them as Gurus, and idol worshipping them? All the Gurus point towards the Creator. They say Shabad hi Guru hai.
> * How other way can any one follow Guru? elaborate with your wiser approach?  By doubting in him or questioning him by being in a position of having  other influences? Why then there is a need to even follow any one? Why don’t you ask yourself, as you claim to be logical, how every word written hundred years after Jesus could be his words? Where is your logical mind there? You accept their claims to be true, isn’t it laughable? Gurbani is in poetic form, symbols and metaphors are major players in conveying message of peace and love.*
> 
> In fact what disturbed me was the fact that much of the text in Granth Sahib has been copied from the Bible. If i as a Sikh take pride in my religion, and Gurus, why do my Gurus need to copy something from a different Holy Book, that is much older than theirs.
> *Who told you that lie? Have you studied history? Gurbani discusses Islam and Hinduism, not a small reference is given about Bible and its religion, isn’t it a proof that Guru ji didn’t even acknowledge Christianity as an important to address. In expression of passion and spiritual concepts, words can resemble in many religious scriptures, that doesn’t mean those are copy.*
> 
> In the beginning was word, and word was with God, and word was God...now this text first appeared in Bible and then in Granth Sahib, i have discovered this
> *First read Japji, Word concept will be clear in your mind.  Word is also used in Gurbani for different meaning in different context unlike in Bible*
> . Then in one of the verses in Granth, Gurus say that they will worship the Word that was taken alive to heaven....something like Panch tatva da Putla Nanak....Shabad mera Guru Jo Jeevit Gaya Aasmaan.
> *You even don’t remember Guru Vaak, concluding on some thing like this shows a display of foolish attack on Sikhism *
> 
> What was Nank Ji trying to say here? Who has gone alive to heaven
> 
> *Asmaan is not heaven for Gods sake;  you should respect yourself  and avoid making statements on which  people should laugh at.*
> . If someone has gone alive to heaven, then definitely that Shabad (Word) must have come to earth also....a very logical assumption.
> *What you are saying, may be Bible says that, I am sure Guru Granth Sahib doesn’t, period.*
> 
> Now if that Word became flesh, and came to earth, then it must be God incarnated.
> *Very clearly it is stated in Guru Granth Sahib that HE is beyond Birth and death, incarnation is imagination of some or those who have no inkling of Sargan Form of the Creator.*
> Now none of our Gurus have made a claim that they are God. They have sought forgiveness of their sins from Waheguru, the Almighty. Suppose my Gurus were trying to show me a way?
> *They were humble and want us to be humble, to remain egoless before HIM, all shallow or real intellectual are fruitless in pursuit of Spiritual experience.  As per Gurbani, sins of others are not taken by one person unless God wishes, sins remain liability of the sinners; responsibility of the sins lies on doers shoulders. No trading in or false promises.
> *
> So in my attempts i came across some verses in Bible where Jesus maakes claims, that He is the way, the truth, the life. There is no other way to Almighty except through me (Jesus)
> *Follow Him, Good luck*. *It is a claim of your choice after all.*
> 
> Now i do not these claims in any other Holy Book. The point to ponder is, why did Jesus make these claims? Who gave Him the authority to say such things? Naturally a person with authority would make such statements. Why did my Gurus not say such things? Why not a single surety that they will take me to heaven?
> *Go to Radha Swami, Ram Rahim Singh, they all make claims .Did Jesus make claim or his followers did? That question’s answer proves what logic you are following. As Bible was written by others than Jesus, who knows who made claim in reality. Ponder over it, still I urge you to join the wagon of Jesus, he takes all responsibility for others sins, many  people love that concept; you just enjoy life and meet him in the end free of all sins, what a free ride, it is that simple as per their claims contrary to Gurmat. My best wishes are[/FONT]* *with you.*
> 
> Why do my Gurus need forgiveness of sins, as they claim. And if they need forgiveness, [/FONT]  whom are they seeking forgivenss from? Who can forgive their sins? First i though that it must be Waheguru. But then how do i talk to the Waheguru? I also need my sins forgiven, like my Gurus. So i came across these verses in Bible where Jesus says that He has been given the authority to forgive sins, by Heavenly Father. I find this talk pretty straight forward. Jesus Himself is not seeking forgiveness of sins but He is grants forgiveness. He is sinless whereas my Gurus say they are sinners.
> *As I told you earlier, you are believer of individual claims, go ahead. Guru ji prayed and asked Him for forgiveness for all,  and all power is credited to HIM, the infinite One, to forgive mortals.  At the last moment, you can recall very famous words, Jesus is said to say” Father forgive them they don’t know what they are doing” Why Jesus himself didn’t declare” I forgive you guys, you don’t know what you are doing!” Why he asked  His Creator/Father for forgiveness? as per your logical mind.
> 
> *I am not a Christian but i have pondered over these startling discoveries. Am i worshipping the wrong Gurus? Why my Gurus say that whoever worships us will go to hell ( ghor narak) ? I don't wanna end up my life in hell!! I want to go to heaven!
> 
> *Who guided you to worship Guru,? Guru ji asked to have respect for Guru and Surrender to him so that out of control intellectual and mind can be enabled to see HIM within, not in the sky etc.
> 
> *There are other verses also which seem confusing. We just can't blindly assume that Nank is Waheguru Himself. That would be just assuming things. Let's try to get logical, for a change.
> *Both ways, I don’t see any logic, because assumption is ones own, could be quite untrue. Think, a guy is ready to believe in claims made by some people hundred years after Jesus, is it a logical approach?. I have proved, there is no logic in your views what so ever..*


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## SadeePuri

*Re: Nanak is The Guru, Nanak is The Lord Himself.*



			
				Sikh80 said:
			
		

> Gyani ji shares an sakhi of how mardhana saw bhagayar animal who usually eats meat walked away from the dead body. First, he was about to eat meat of this dead body but when he heard rabi shabad kirtan by sri guru nanak dev ji he got vichar gyan and he didn't eat it even though he was extremely hungry. He sniffed the dead body's hand, he refused because this person has never done seva and he sniffed the dead's body leg he refused because this person used to go wrong places then he sniffed his heart, again he refused because this person didn't had any naam.


 
Sikh80 Ji,

Very interesting, Sikh80 Ji. Can you give the name of the tape collection. Thanks in advance. 

Thanks again.


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## Sikh80

*Re: Nanak is The Guru, Nanak is The Lord Himself.*



SadeePuri said:


> Sikh80 Ji,
> 
> Very interesting, Sikh80 Ji. Can you give the name of the tape collection. Thanks in advance.
> 
> Thanks again.


*Dear sadeepuri jeo,
The URL address is as follows:*
http://www.gurmatveechar.com/katha.php?k=gts


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## SadeePuri

*Re: Nanak is The Guru, Nanak is The Lord Himself.*

Thankyou much much Sikh80 Ji for the link.


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## JimRinX

*Re: Nanak is The Guru, Nanak is The Lord Himself.*

Dear: Sikh80 ji
Thank You for the fascinating series of discourse on - what should I call it? - 'The Sikh Fundamentals'; as I've become more an more interested both in your Fine 'Belief System', and in the hows and whys of Guru Nanak ji having created it.
I agree with you regarding the Nature of God and Guru; as I've always considered myself a Mahayana Buddhist (though I'm leaning, leaning, leaning....) and I thus believe that though God and Man are intricately linked; until the Mortal achieves Nirvana in Life, and then dies and is accepted to become part of 'The Collective Soul' that I believe God IS - they are and will remain two seperate Entities.
Thanx Again - especially for Translating it into English, as you have a Fair Proficiency with My native Tougue! I will be reading your Posts for Weeks To Come!
JimRinX


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## Archived_Member5

*Re: Nanak is The Guru, Nanak is The Lord Himself.*

Parmatma is the Supreme Spirit. This powerful Spiritual energy is inherent in varying degrees in all humanity*. The greater the quotient the wiser and profound in Spirit the individual. I firmly hold faith Guru Nanak was the Creator Spirit here on earth.  Merer mortals will judge according to their own standards and perspective your intuition is correct. This powerful Spirit is the Universal Consciousness, an amalgamation of the combined pure creative forces and life energy in the world encased within the mortal beings of Great Saints. 

The eternal soul is immortal and takes human birth and form. This occurs is stressful times partly evoked by lamentations and prayers of the collective soul. We are all part of this collective conscience, this uniting bond that strings humanity with love and peace as one. 

Mankind created from this One Solar Source of Light and pure energy is divided and contrary in nature. In the beginning Gods creation were of one mind and will. Self thinking, conscientious portals of pure love and peaceable, One in Spirit, a Sangat. It is when all men are gain united ion one cause, of one mind and will in Spirit that mankind will be released from the cycle of death and rebirth. 

Doomsayers take great opportunity of declaring with vain pride and conceit of Guru Nanak and Jesus being mere mortals blessed. This is Shaitan talking, of selfish envy and ill will. It is part a deep sense of ordinate souls being honoured whilst God descending into this world struggles, lives nomadically and suffers many trials at the hands of this Shaitanni. 

From Swarg in his mortal form he casts his gracious glance to the world, and so loved did he his little children young and elders alike, he descended into the world to face the same harsh trials they face daily. It is by this negative energy that the Gods become trapped here and hanker for death and release when remiss of peace, love and humanity. It is true ...


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## harsajjan

*Re: Nanak is The Guru, Nanak is The Lord Himself.*

Being new to Sikhism, I would very much like a clear response to your question.  I'm not able to follow the posted answer, however this is a question I've wondered about for some time.  Thanks.


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## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is The Guru, Nanak is The Lord Himself.*

Respected Harsajjan ji

Your question is a good question, and sometimes I think the one question that overwhelms all other questions in importance. Humbly I encourage you to read Sri Guru Granth Sahib for answers to questions like the one you have just asked. Gurbani is clear as can be in the answer. So rather than go on and on, here is what Guruji says to us. 

ਜਗਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੁਠੈ ਪਾਇਅਉ ॥ 
jagath oudhhaaran naam sathigur thuthai paaeiao ||
The Naam is the Saving Grace of the world; by the Pleasure of the True Guru, it is obtained.


ਅਬ ਨਾਹਿ ਅਵਰ ਸਰਿ ਕਾਮੁ ਬਾਰੰਤਰਿ ਪੂਰੀ ਪੜੀ ॥੩॥੧੨॥ 
ab naahi avar sar kaam baaranthar pooree parree ||3||12||
Now, I am not concerned with anything else; at Your Door, I am fulfilled. ||3||12||


*ਜੋਤਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹਾਯਉ ॥ 
joth roop har aap guroo naanak kehaayo ||
The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.*
  

 ਤਾ ਤੇ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਭਯਉ ਤਤ ਸਿਉ ਤਤੁ ਮਿਲਾਯਉ ॥ 
thaa thae angadh bhayo thath sio thath milaayo ||
From Him, came Guru Angad; His essence was absorbed into the essence.
  

 ਅੰਗਦਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਅਮਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਥਿਰੁ ਕੀਅਉ ॥ 
angadh kirapaa dhhaar amar sathigur thhir keeao ||
Guru Angad showed His Mercy, and established Amar Daas as the True Guru.
  

 ਅਮਰਦਾਸਿ ਅਮਰਤੁ ਛਤ੍ਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਹਿ ਦੀਅਉ ॥ 
amaradhaas amarath shhathra gur raamehi dheeao ||
Guru Amar Daas blessed Guru Raam Daas with the umbrella of immortality.
  

 ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਰਸਿ ਕਹਿ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਯਣ ॥ 
gur raamadhaas dharasan paras kehi mathhuraa anmrith bayan ||
So speaks Mat'huraa: gazing upon the Blessed Vision, the Darshan of Guru Raam Daas, His speech became as sweet as nectar.
  

ਮੂਰਤਿ ਪੰਚ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਪਿਖਹੁ ਨਯਣ ॥੧॥ 
moorath panch pramaan purakh gur arajun pikhahu nayan ||1||
With your eyes, see the certified Primal Person, Guru Arjun, the Fifth Manifestation of the Guru. ||1||

  
 ਸਤਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਧਰਿਓ ਉਰਿ ॥ 
sath roop sath naam sath santhokh dhhariou our ||
He is the Embodiment of Truth; He has enshrined the True Name, Sat Naam, Truth and contentment within His heart.


ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਲਿਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਅਛਰੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਧੁਰਿ ॥ 
aadh purakh parathakh likhyo ashhar masathak dhhur ||
From the very beginning, the Primal Being has written this destiny upon His forehead.
  

 ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਗਮਗੈ ਤੇਜੁ ਭੂਅ ਮੰਡਲਿ ਛਾਯਉ ॥ 
pragatt joth jagamagai thaej bhooa manddal shhaayo ||
His Divine Light shines forth, dazzling and radiant; His Glorious Grandeur pervades the realms of the world.
  

 ਪਾਰਸੁ ਪਰਸਿ ਪਰਸੁ ਪਰਸਿ ਗੁਰਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਹਾਯਉ ॥ 
paaras paras paras paras gur guroo kehaayo ||
Meeting the Guru, touching the Philosopher's Stone, He was acclaimed as Guru.
  

ਭਨਿ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸਦਾ ਥਿਰੁ ਲਾਇ ਚਿਤੁ ਸਨਮੁਖ ਰਹਹੁ ॥ 
bhan mathhuraa moorath sadhaa thhir laae chith sanamukh rehahu ||
So speaks Mat'huraa: I constantly focus my consciousness on Him; as sunmukh, I look to Him.

The shabad is from the bani of Bhat Mathura and is on Ang 1408 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. *ਜੋਤਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹਾਯਉ ॥ 
 joth roop har aap guroo naanak kehaayo || The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.*The light of one Guru was absorbed into the next, and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib contains the immortal light of all of them. 

Sat Nam ji


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## dushanka

*Re: Nanak is The Guru, Nanak is The Lord Himself.*

Sat sri akal, Sikh80 Ji 

what i know about is that Guru Nanak is the highest teacher of Sikhism not Lord on himself. Guru Nanak has learned/tought the people that there is only one almighty God on which we all should believe . Otherwise the Sikhs would not exist , all would still believe on many Gods or be in other religions. You are right if you say this interpretation is wrong .We should of course give highest respect as possible to Guru Nanak Ji ,but we all should praise the one almighty Lord which Guru Nanak Ji tought us to praise . It's very logic .
Best regards ,
Dushanka


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## Archived_Member5

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



Parma said:


> This discussion is useless. If god is *formless*, *undescribable*, *timeless, nameless*. Then each and every one of our depictions of god is correct. At the same point we are also all wrong. Only pray with the true name. Mann and Matth Keep control of them both. What if we are all god. What if we are not.
> 
> Discussion is rarely useless unless there is an unequal disparity if intelligence and comprehension. Formless means God is an Omnipresent Spirit at times assuming mortal form, inherent within humanity in varying degrees.
> 
> Indescribable is a term used by those so awed or unable to discern the munificence of the definite attributes and constituents of the Universal Spirit. As one in deep love becomes speechless and awed. Timeless denotes his eternal, immortal omnipresence, nameless infers he is in all things beautiful, magnificent and ethereal. All love, truth, wisdom and peace is he, Therefore one virtue cannot encompass his entirety although to say God is Aum, or Om means The Alpha, Omega and guiding light between. God Is, the depiction of each is his perspective according to his understanding and intelligence, imagination and consciousness. God Is. Opinions are wrong, as are views sometimes because we speak with ulterior motive, anger, self interest or blinkered vision. Or we have duality interests that require compromise of truth to accommodate infidelity, causing hypocrisy and irrational vagueness and confusion. God is all virtue, wisdom and absolute love. Man struggles with egotism and vain conceit, to retain his honour and mental clarity, his mastery of will and control of mind. Were we all Gods we would no longer struggle but abide in peace. Create peace and unity where so we roam, a God is a benefactor, a receptacle of grace. Kings, Presidents and Religious Leaders cannot claim Godhood let alone consideration to be God how can mere mortals.


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## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is The Guru, Nanak is The Lord Himself.*



dushanka said:


> Sat sri akal, Sikh80 Ji
> 
> what i know about is that Guru Nanak is the highest teacher of Sikhism not Lord on himself. Guru Nanak has learned/tought the people that there is only one almighty God on which we all should believe . Otherwise the Sikhs would not exist , all would still believe on many Gods or be in other religions. You are right if you say this interpretation is wrong .We should of course give highest respect as possible to Guru Nanak Ji ,but we all should praise the one almighty Lord which Guru Nanak Ji tought us to praise . It's very logic .
> Best regards ,
> Dushanka



This is not my opinion nor my interpretation.


*ਜੋਤਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹਾਯਉ ॥ 
joth roop har aap guroo naanak kehaayo ||
The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.*


The Gurus are merged with the jyote jot.


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## spnadmin

*Re: Nanak is the Guru, Nanak is the Lord Himself.*



jeetijohal said:


> Parma said:
> 
> 
> 
> This discussion is useless. If god is *formless*, *undescribable*, *timeless, nameless*. Then each and every one of our depictions of god is correct. At the same point we are also all wrong. Only pray with the true name. Mann and Matth Keep control of them both. What if we are all god. What if we are not.
> 
> Discussion is rarely useless unless there is an unequal disparity if intelligence and comprehension. Formless means God is an Omnipresent Spirit at times assuming mortal form, inherent within humanity in varying degrees.
> 
> Indescribable is a term used by those so awed or unable to discern the munificence of the definite attributes and constituents of the Universal Spirit. As one in deep love becomes speechless and awed. Timeless denotes his eternal, immortal omnipresence, nameless infers he is in all things beautiful, magnificent and ethereal. All love, truth, wisdom and peace is he, Therefore one virtue cannot encompass his entirety although to say God is Aum, or Om means The Alpha, Omega and guiding light between. God Is, the depiction of each is his perspective according to his understanding and intelligence, imagination and consciousness. God Is. Opinions are wrong, as are views sometimes because we speak with ulterior motive, anger, self interest or blinkered vision. Or we have duality interests that require compromise of truth to accommodate infidelity, causing hypocrisy and irrational vagueness and confusion. God is all virtue, wisdom and absolute love. Man struggles with egotism and vain conceit, to retain his honour and mental clarity, his mastery of will and control of mind. Were we all Gods we would no longer struggle but abide in peace. Create peace and unity where so we roam, a God is a benefactor, a receptacle of grace. Kings, Presidents and Religious Leaders cannot claim Godhood let alone consideration to be God how can mere mortals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks jeetijohal for this this incisive reply. Waheguru the SatGuru is both nargun and sargun. As Guru Nanak the SatGuru took on His sargun swaroopa.
Click to expand...


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## onewithinall

*Re: Nanak is The Guru, Nanak is The Lord Himself.*

dude you should run for office......you aks questions you already know the answers to...... it would seem your horse is tall and mighty.

*Warning regarding forum rules. Please debate issues not personalities. *


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## onewithinall

*Re: Nanak is The Guru, Nanak is The Lord Himself.*

*Please use a civil tongue.* (aad0002)


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## karam

I beleive Guru Nanak was the shadow of God, Guru Nanak and parmatma both were abhed mean I don't find any difference between them, Guru Nanak was born enlightened with the will of God, and only and only God was Guru Nanak's guru, after carefully reviewing guru Nanak's sakhis I came to the conclusion that Guru Nanak was born enlightened...this is the reason he could enlighten mullas and brahmans at very young age,


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## spnadmin

karamji


your words are very inspiring. I have only one question. Do you mean "shadow of God?" A shadow is a darer place where light does not shine through brightly. You may mean in the jyote or LIght of God rather than shadow, judging for all else that you said.


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## Amarpal

Dear Khalsa Ji,

As I understand, which I have said ealier in my last post on Sukhmani Sahib, and which I reproduce below"

"Each one of us is born in this world with a mission. The mission consists of three elements (i) To pay for the past Karma and exhaust them; (ii) The experience positive and negative aspects of life on earth, learn from them and evolve to a higher level of spirituality; and (iii) To act as an instrument of ‘The Sat’ to protect and sustain the creation of ‘The Sat’ and to and help in evolving it to a higher level. The sum total of these three elements is equal to 1 i.e. one life. The weighing factors of these three elements in life vary form individual to individual depending on one’s past Karmas.  The person who has accumulated lots of bad Karmas in past life will find its life more loaded with the task of exhausting i.e. paying for those Karmas. On the other side of the spectrum, the person, who has no negative Karmas and who in a way has already evolved to the highest spiritual level, will have its life loaded with the third element, ie. The live their lives as an instrument of ‘The Sat’. Nanak, Gautam, Jesus and Mahavira belonged to this class. Most of the other individuals fall in between these two extremes of the spectrum; their mission of life is loaded with all the three elements, with varying weighing factor for each of the element for each one of them. All this depends on the individual’s past Karmas."

Guru sahib had no past karmas to exhaust, his mission was to help us and thus serve the cause of 'The Sat'. Guru Nanak Dev Ji is (I have used 'is' because I am convinced that his soul is still around and is guiding us, this is my personal understanding) a very evolved soul. Guru Sahib out of unlimited compassion for the suffering creation of 'The Sat' he took birth in human form.

When a soul takes form and is born in this world, its past (the quality and nature of its soul) remains hidden from it. All the limitations of the body, into which this soul resides get applied to this new born. The new born has to strive and, where needed, struggle hard and grow to discover its true self. When this was achieved by Guru Nanak Dev Ji, his true self blossomed and found expression in his divinity, the evolved soul got expreesed through his work and speech. This event is characterised by Guru Nanak's statement ' There is no Hindu, there is no Musalman'. After this Guru Sahib went around helping others to evolve and discover thier ture self. Till this event Guru Sahib was trying and learn the truth from different groups of Sadhus and Fakirs. Similar wandering and struggle was part of live 'Gautam the Buddha'. He to broke the shell (mental) of the body to reach the Gyana that was always present in him.

As I understand the 'Bodied Nanak' is Divine Guru, in soul form it is one with 'The Sat'. The Divinity of the 'Bodied Nanak' came from the highly evolved pure Soul that resided in him, which he has discovered during his own life time.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh


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## spnadmin

Thank you Amarpal ji for a very poetic and uplifting reply.


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## JimRinX

Dear Khalsa jios
All of the above! I too could tell that Sikhism has evolved from the teachings of an Enlightened One; as I've always considered myself a 'Lucky Buddhist' - one whose been granted a little 'Clear Light Deity Entity Provided Insight' - and so I know these things!
It's good to see other people who are also not 'formally' Sikhs; as I believe that Guru Nanak would have wanted it that way.
As so many of these threads deal with what seem to me to be divisions amongst the Sikhi; those who see the people who took the actions that led to Operation Blue Star one way, and those who see it another, for example; I hope that you'll all remember this!
The Sikhi, Blessed with the Wisdom of Guru Nanak, can (help me) make the Whole World a more Loving Kind Place, if you can keep these issues from tearing the Sikhi apart and/or from making War on those who wronged you decades or centuries ago!
Love Is The Answer!


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## karam

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> karamji
> 
> 
> your words are very inspiring. I have only one question. Do you mean "shadow of God?" A shadow is a darer place where light does not shine through brightly. You may mean in the jyote or LIght of God rather than shadow, judging for all else that you said.


 sorry for the late reply, don't take my words literally, you can take shadow as someone who is very close to god, I beleive God sends enlightened souls from time to time to clear darkness from our minds, same way Guru Nanak was sent, I beleive he was on a mission


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## a.mother

karam said:


> I beleive Guru Nanak was the shadow of God, Guru Nanak and parmatma both were abhed mean I don't find any difference between them, Guru Nanak was born enlightened with the will of God, and only and only God was Guru Nanak's guru, after carefully reviewing guru Nanak's sakhis I came to the conclusion that Guru Nanak was born enlightened...this is the reason he could enlighten mullas and brahmans at very young age,




 Sat Sri Akal,Karam ji,
           I just can't say thanks to you because I don't have enough and proper words to say it. Karam ji where you have found these words ,you have open everything in a very simple way.
           Thank you so much from bottom of my tiny heart what Waheguru have bless me with.


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## a.mother

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> karamji
> 
> 
> your words are very inspiring. I have only one question. Do you mean "shadow of God?" A shadow is a darer place where light does not shine through brightly. You may mean in the jyote or LIght of God rather than shadow, judging for all else that you said.




 Sat Sri Akal , Narayanjot Kaur ji , Karam ji used a word shadow,I don't know what is the technical mean for this word , but what I know in common language this word is used for guru sahib ji and god that they not two they are one , mean they are abhed. In this case light or jyot of god has same mean which Karam ji want to say.Any way thanks to you who wants to clear the mean and many thanks to Karam ji who's post gave humble PEACE  to my mind.


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## spnadmin

a.mother ji

Thanks you. Sometimes when I ask questions, it does not mean I don't have an answer or two. I do this so that as many people are possible, some non Sikhs and others Sikhs without a lot of background in Sikhi, will have a clear understanding of what a writer means to say. That is sometimes a funny thing but true.


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## a.mother

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> a.mother ji
> 
> Thanks you. Sometimes when I ask questions, it does not mean I don't have an answer or two. I do this so that as many people are possible, some non Sikhs and others Sikhs without a lot of background in Sikhi, will have a clear understanding of what a writer means to say. That is sometimes a funny thing but true.



Sat Sri Akal ji , Even I felt the same way what you have want to clear from Karam ji. but this will help  more to non sikh viewer too. 
   Thanks lots.


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## KAMLASINGH

I think the translation of this Shabad is problematic for many reasons.  First of all it is one "tuk" taken from the shabad. A shabad is a  complete composition. So, to understand the concept, or the idea, the  composer is trying to relay to the reader, is only understood by reading  the entire composition. 

Secondly, the name "Nanak" in the  shabad is symbolic. There is a specific reason why all the nine Guruji's  whose bani is in The Guru Granth Sahib, use Nanak as their name. While  Guru Gobind Singh Ji never used "Nanak" in his bani. If we do not  understand the symbolism, we can't understand the bani.

Thirdly,  the translators (all of them) of Sri Guru Granth Sahib believe that  Gurbani is just another philosophy, and translate it from that point of  view. They can never grasp the essence of gurbani.

Lastly, a  reader can not understand gurbani unless the reader is in the same state  of mind as the writer. The writer in this case is connected with God,  that means the reader must be enlightened before he or she can  understand gurbani. 

After reading the entire Shabad, I think  the meaning of this "tuk" is: Guru (meaning God) is Nanak (symbolic),  and Nanak(symbolically) is Guru (God). One does not exist without the  other. It is like, the creation (karma),  does not exist without the  support of the creator (dharma), and the dharma is not needed, if there  is no karma, or creation.

For example, if one creates a product  or a service, to make this product or service useful, one needs to  support and sustain the creation. The creation of the good or service in  this case is Karma, or creation, and the support function to sustain  the good or service is dharma. If one does not have a good or service to  sell, one does not need sales force to sell it, and does not need money  for the payroll. Similarly, if one has a good or service to sell, one  can not do it unless one has the support structure to sustain.

So,  in nut shell, the meaning of the stated tuk is: the creation does not  exist without the creator's support, and the creators support is not  needed if there is no creation.


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## spnadmin

Kamalsingh ji 

I cannot opine whether some or all translators are taking the wrong approach. The trasnlation to me seems very close. However, I do think this tuk captures much of what you are saying as concept. In that sense I agree with you:

The shabad is from the bani of Bhat Mathura and is on Ang 1408 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. ਜੋਤਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹਾਯਉ ॥ 
joth roop har aap guroo naanak kehaayo || The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.

jothi light
roop body, embodiment
har Lord or God
aap himself
Guroo Guru
Naanak Naanak
kehaayo called or said to be

One assumes first that Light and Lord, or jothi and Har, are the same concept. Then assume that Guru Nanaak is said to be the Lord. That makes him also jothi roop.

So, The Light itself is merged with Nanak (and all Gurus merged into one Light). That is the meaning I take from this.

Please permit me to point out that this was written by one of the bhats. From an historical standpoint, the bhats knew of some, not all, of the Gurus. Guru Arjan Dev in making this selection of shabad for Sri Guru Granth Sahib is therefore the one who has clariifed that all Gurus are merged with the light or are the embodiment of the Light - jothi roop. Since the bhats were Hindu, a reading of the shabad might lead a reader in a different direction. So the focus should be on johti Light not on any thought that the Gurus are somehow a God/Har incarnated.


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## KAMLASINGH

If one believes that gurbani is philosophy, then you are right, and all the gurbani translations are correct. But I believe that gurbani is statement of a fact. Guruji’s are stating a fact that is not known to the rest of the world. For them to be able to make factual statements, they have to know the fact first. The knowledge of the fact can only come from the creator. 
I will translate the tuk you introduced, as follows:
joiq rUip hir Awip guru, nwnku khwXau ] 
qw qy AMgdu BXa,u qq isau qqu imlwXau ]
The jot roop of God is the Guru, who enlightened Nanak, and Nanak gave the enlightenment to Angad, and so on. This was accomplished when tat was re-united with the tat.
Meaning of jot is light or intelligence. Opposite of jot is kal. Kal means darkness or ignorance, or lack of intelligence. Meaning of Guru is “One that transforms darkness into light”, or the “one that transforms lack of intelligence into intelligence”. 
The five elements and their compounds that make up our body, lack intelligence. So our physical body  is not intelligent. What makes the physical body intelligent is “tat”, and that “tat” is the Guru.
We obviously are intelligent, then we can say we already have the guru within us. But meaning of  “qq isau qqu imlwXau” is that we have only half of the “tat” in us, but there is another half that we have no access to. Our situation is very similar to a computer that has no internet access.
Obviously, each one of us is just a miniscule part of the whole, so when one is attached to the whole, one becomes whole. 
Since, the “tat” makes our dumb body work, then we should be recognized as “tat” and not by our physical appearance. When Nanak (physical entity) is enlightened, he becomes God. We recognize Nanak by his physical existence. But the real Nanak is what is sitting inside the physical body, and we know that it is God. Hence:  joiq rUip hir Awip guru, nwnku khwXau ] Part  of God that creates intelligence in living beings, is the Guru who manifested Himself, in the physical form, as Nanak.
Guruji’s did not want to say this themselves, because they did not want to confuse the reader. Moreover that idea was already tried in Christianity. So, they had Bhats state that.


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## spnadmin

Kamlasingh ji

I with your indulgence need to again separate the historical aspect of this tuk from the philosophical interpretation.

1. 





> Guruji’s did not want to say this themselves, because they did not want to confuse the reader. Moreover that idea was already tried in Christianity. So, they had Bhats state that.



It is difficult to believe that our Gurus would use the Bhats to make philosophical points for them that they as Gurus were unwilling to make themselves. It sounds dodgy.

2. There is not a lot of wiggle room in the vichaar of the tuk. Whether referring to 1 Guru or 11. The Gurus are the embodiment of the Light.

I am willing to be corrected, however, someone would have to explain to me how en-LIGHTENED our Gurus, they would need spokesmen in the form of Hindu poets. 

The Bhats were part of the bakhti movement of northern india, and subscribed to the notion of One God, who was nirgun. Some of their poetry was preserved by Guru Arjan Dev ji as bani in the Aadi Granth. Some of their poetry was not included. If they were authorized spokesmen for our Gurus, all of their poetry  would be part of Guru Granth Sahib. That is not the case.


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## KAMLASINGH

Well, the question here was, "Is guru Nanak Lord and the creator". This was the question from sikh80:  "Is Guru Nanak dev ji stated to be Creator?
or
The translation is not correct
or
My appreciation Of the translation is faulty".
I stated that yes, since Guru Nanak is the embodiment of the Divine, he is divine, and all that Divine is.
In essence, you are saying the same thing. 
Isn't that the view of every other religion?
The point here is not what the history is, or who said what, or which religion is better, the point is, are we ever going to know the truth?
With this religious bickering going on for over 5000 years, we haven't reached any conclusion yet. What we are doing today, other religion have been there and done that. We are not any special than anybody else.
I am proposing a simple truth. My understanding of gurbani tells me that all that has been said about God, for over 5000 years, is about one simple thing that can be jotted down in one sentence.
It is essential for us to know the truth for many reasons, least of which is that our very existance is in jeopardy.


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## spnadmin

KAMLASINGH said:


> I stated that yes, since Guru Nanak is the embodiment of the Divine, he is divine, and all that Divine is.
> In essence, you are saying the same thing.
> Isn't that the view of every other religion?




"Isn't that the view of every other religion?"

I would say, "No."  One notable example from history is the torture and execution of Sufi Saints by Islamic hierarchy for preaching that one can merge with the Divine.

Another notable example from history is the near torture and execution of Bonaventure the Franciscan scholar by the hierarchy of the Roman Church for preaching about the "footprints of God" in creation - evidence for God's immanence in all of creation. This was condemned as heresy. He narrowly escaped death.

Within Sha'riah it is heresy to say that any human can embody the Divine.

"It is imperative at this point to draw attention to a common misconception. It is one thing to fulfill the obligations proceeding from divine attributes and quite another to strive to be an incarnation of divinity. The latter is patently false and un-Islamic." http://english.islammessage.com/articledetails.aspx?articleId=665

Wherever there is a dualistic construct of the I/Thou relationship between "man" and "god" divinity is bestowed by the divine upon rare individuals. The distinction between I (me) and Thou (God) is maintained because the duality is a fundamental assumption.By definition, duality is not something that can be overcome.


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## prakash.s.bagga

Ref:-Nanak is The GURU and NANAK is Lord 

Hahing gone thru so many posts  related to this thread I find surmised that there is so much confusion in the overall understanding of the references mentioned in the thread.

If we sincerely and truely understand the reference meaning of THE WORD "GURU" itself  
that should be enough to get the right answer we may be looking for.Ironny is that so far we have never thought of actually knowing the reference meaning of the word 
GURU'

The day we do this most of our confusions would automatically get removed.

With thanks
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Parma

_ਗੁਰੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਨਾਨਕੁ __ਹਰਿ __ਸੋਇ __॥੪॥੭॥੯॥_
_गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥ _
_Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. ||4||7||9|| _
_Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||_

Gur = Knowledgable, Nanak, Nanak har soe.

Best I can do with the english translation
Knowledgable Nanak, Nanak imparts (the knowledge) all = Har everything
*What Guru Nanak is saying is Guru Nanak is just like everyone else, just as the whole of humanity is apart of har, he is a slave to the har which is inside all, The knowledge has come to nanak and he imparts it to that energy har which is inside everyone else, he is not declaring himself to be god! Har = Everything!*


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