# What Is Jal Jogan?



## Archived_member2 (Aug 18, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all lovers of Gurbaanee and Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee!

A Sabad from Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee is very popular among Raagees these days. It begins with this Vaak.
"rogan te aru jogan te jal jogan te bahu bhaaNt bachaavay."

We know what diseases (Rogan) are. We also know what sorrows (Sogan) are. Can someone please explain what kind of problem 'Jal Jogan' is? HE saves us in many ways. I will be thankful.


Balbir Singh


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## drkhalsa (Aug 18, 2007)

*                               Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji - Page 87- SearchGurbani.Com*


byd purwn kqyb kurwn hsyb Qky kr hwQ n Awey ]
Bed Puraan Kateb Kuraan haseb thake kar haath na aae||
The Vedas, Puranas, Katebs and the Quran have tired of giving His account, but the Lord could not be comprehended.
Line     

pUrn pyRm pRBwau ibnw piq isau ikn sIR pdmw piq pwey ] 3]245]
Pooran prem prabhaao binaa pat(i) sio kin sroo padmaa pat(i) paae||3||245||
Without the impact of perfect love, who hath realized Lord-God with grace? 3.245.
Line     

Awid AnMq AgwD AdYUuK su BUq Biv~K Bvwn ABY hY ]
aadh anant agaadh advaikh su bhoot bhavikkh bhavaan abhai hai||
The Primal, Infinite, Unfathomable Lord is without malice and is fearless in the past, present and future.
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AMiq ibhIn Anwqm Awp Adwg AdoK AiC~dR ACY hY ]
Ant(i) bihoon anaatam aap adaag adokh achhiddra achhai hai||
He is endless, Himself Selfless, stainless, blemishless, flawless and invincible.
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logn ky krqw hrqw jl mY Ql mY Brqw pRB vY hY ]
Logan ke kartaa hartaa jal mai thal mai bhartaa Prabh vai hai||
He is the Creator and Destroyer of all in water and on land and also their Sustainer-Lord.
Line     

dIn dieAwl dieAw kr sRI piq sMudr sRI pdmw piq ey hY ] 4]246]
Doon daeaal daeaa kar sroo pat(i) sundar sroo padmaa pat(i) e hai||4||246||
He, the Lord of maya, is Compassionate to the Lowly, source of Mercy and most beautiful.4.246.
Line     

kwm n koRD n loB n moh n rog n sog n Bog n BY hY ]
Kaam na krodh na lobh na moh na rog na sog nab hog na bhai hai||
He is without lust, anger, greed, attachment, ailment, sorrow, enjoyment and fear.
Line     

dyh ibhIn snyh sBo qn nyh ibrkq Agyh ACY hY ]
Deh bihoon saneh sabho tan neh birkat ageh achhai hai||
He is body-less, loving everybody but without worldly attachment, invincible and cannot be held in grasp.
Line     

jwn ko dyq Ajwn ko dyq jmIn ko dyq jmwn ko dY hY ]
Jaan ko det ajaan ko det jamoon ko det jamaan ko dai hai||
He provides sustenance to all animate and inanimate beings and all those living on the earth and in the sky.
Line     

*kwhy ko folq hY qumrI suD suMdr sRI pdmw piq lYhY ] 5]247]
Kaahe ko ?olat hai tumroo sudh sundar sroo padmaa pat(i) laihai||5||247||
Why dost thou waver, O creature! The beautiful Lord of maya will take care of thee. 5.247.
Line    

rogn qy Ar sogn qy jl jogn qy bhu BWiq bcwvY ]
Rogan te ar sogan te jal jogan te bahu bhaant(i) bachaavai||
He protects in many blows, but none doth inflict thy body.* 
Line     

s~qRu Anyk clwvq Gwv qaU qn eyk n lwgn pwvY ]
Sattru anek chalaavat ghaav taoo tan ek na laagan paavai||
The enemy strikes many blows, but none doth inflict thy body.
Line     

rwKq hY Apno kr dY kr pwp sMbUh n Bytn pwvY ]
Raakhat hai apno kar dai kar paap sanbooh na bhetan paavai||
When the Lord protects with his own hands, but none of the sins even comes near thee.
Line     

AyMr kI bwq khw kh qo syMN su pyt hI ky pt bIc bcwvY ] 6]248]
Aur koo baat kahaa kah to saun su pet hoo ke pat booch bachaavai||6||248||
What else should I say unto you, He protects (the infant) even in the membranes of the womb.6.248.


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## drkhalsa (Aug 18, 2007)

Balbir singh ji

As usual I dont know the answer to your question 

But i just try 

Jal means Water 

Jogan menas Yog/Yogi

But I dont know what Jal Jogan here means in the Vaak 




Jatinder Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 18, 2007)

*It may look like overkill to include two different shabads, but EACH CONTAINS THE SAME REFERENCE TO JAL JOGAN, and is in an identical verse. These are not the same shabads. Careful reading of the verse in question *Rogan te ar sogan te jal jogan te bahu bhaant(i) bachaavai||* will show some interesting differences in translations, including the meaning of jal jogan. In this translation jal johan is translated to mean creatures of water. In the shabad posted by Dr. Khalsa jal jogan is not translated. The shabad below is also by Guru Gobind Singh dev ji and  is found on panna 158 of the Raag Amrit Kirtan Index. In kirtan form, it has not been translated into English by three of the more popular Gurbani Search Engine sites, including SikhToTheMax. The shabad posted by Dr. Khalsa is on page 87 of Dasam Granth. but has been translated into English by Gurbani Sites. This discrepancy between two versions of the line *_Rogan te ar sogan te jal jogan te bahu bhaant(i) bachaavai||_* suggests that proper translation of the phrase may be a matter of controversy. 

It took a while to find an English translation of jal jogan in the kirtan version, and this one came from SIKHNET - Sikh Religion - Sikhism Information  as a pdf file. So given the tendency of Balbir ji to throw some curves into the discussions, it may be useful to see both shabads and to have alternative translations. Who knows where we are headed?*

qÍ pRswid sv`Xy Akwl ausqqdInn kI pRiqpwl krY inq sMq aubwr gnImn gwrY]
Deenan Ki Paritpaal Karai Nit Sant Ubar Ganiman Gaarai
 The Eternal One always takes care of poor, always protects and brings up the saints and decomposes the enemies.

 p`C psU ng nwg nrwDp srb smY sB ko pRiqpwrY]
Pash Pasoo Nug Naag Naradap Sarab Samai Sub Ko Paritpaarai
Almighty always takes care of birds, animals, mountains, plants and trees, snakes, kings, etc. separately.

 poKq hY jl mY Ql mY pl mY kil ky nhIN krm ibcwrY]
Pokhat Hai Jul Mai Thul Mai Pal Mai Kul Kay Nahi Karam Bicharai
 Indestructible One takes care of species in soil and water and does not take into account the deeds of species, including humans. He feeds everyone without looking at their deeds. 

 dIn dieAwl dieAw iniD doKn dyKq hY pru dyq n hwrY]1]
Deen Daiyal Daya Nid Dokhan Daykhat Hai Pur Dait Na Haarai
 All-powerful One who gives gifts to everyone, Ocean of Gifts, sees species committing sins but does not stop feeing them. God never gets tired of giving.

dwhq hY duK doKn kO dl du`jn ky pl mY dil fwrY]
Dahat Hai Dukh Dokhan Kau Dal Dujjan Kay Pal Mai Dal Daarai
 Almighty burns pains, problems and sins. God destroys groups of evil people in an instant.

KMf AKMf pRcMf pRhwrn pUrn pRym kI pRIiq sBwrY]
Khand Akhand Parchand Parhaarun Pooran Praim Ki Pareet Sabbarai
God destroys the ones who cannot be broken; God breaks the ones, who are clever. God loves the ones who love God.

pwr n pwie skY pdmwpiq byd kqyb AByd aucwrY]
Paar Na Paa-aye Sakkai Pudmaapat Baid Kataib Abhaid Ucharai
 Vishnu, Vedas and other religious books such as Koran, Bible, etc. can’t describe God. They say God can’t be described.

 roj hI rwj iblokq rwijk roK rUhwn kI rojI n twrY]2]
Roaj Hi Raaj Bilokat Raajik Roakh Roohan Ki Roji Na Taarai
 Giver of food (God) sees our sinful actions everyday but does not stop giving us food.


 kIt pqMg kurMg BujMgm BUq Biv`K Bvwn bnwey]
Keet Patung Kurung Bhujungum Bhoot Bhavikh Bana-aye
 God created insects, bugs, dears, snakes, etc. in the past, is creating them in the present, and will create them in the future.


 dyv Adyv Kpy AhMmyv n Byv liKE BRm isE Brmwey]
Dauv Aadaiv Khapay Ahumaiv Na Bhaiv Lakhio Bharam Sio Bharma-aye
Also gods and demons, which were filled with ego died but none of them were able to find God. They were filled with superstitions and worldly attachments.

 byd purwn kqyb kurwn hsyb Qky kr hwQ n Awey]
Baid Puraan Kataib Kuran Hasaib Thakkay Kur Haath Na Aa-aye
 Vedas, Puraans, Bible, Koran, and other old religious books tried to describe God but were unable to.


 pUrn pRym pRBwau ibnw piq isE ikn sRI pdmwpiq pwey]3]
Pooran Praim Parbhao Bina Pat Sio Kin Sri Pudmaapat Pa-aye
 Who has ever found God by just respecting God? (Meaning that God can’t be found without love.)

Awid Anµq AgwD AdÍYK su BUq Biv`K Bvwn ABY hY]
Aad Anunt Agaadh Advaikh So Bhoot Bhavikh Bhavaan Aabbhai  Hai
 Hey God! You are the beginning of everything, You have no end, You have no limits and You have not enemies. You have no fear from anyone from the three times (past, present, future).


AMiq ibhIn Anwqm Awp Adwg AdoK AiC`dR ACY hY]
Aant Beiheen Annatam Aap Adag Adokh Ashidder Ashhai Hai
You have no end, You are deathless, no one can point a finger at you (you make no mistakes), You have no pains or problems, You have no flaws and You can’t be destroyed.


 logn ky krqw hrqw jl mY Ql mY Brqw pRB vY hY]
Logan Kay Karta Harta Jul Mai Thal Mai Bharta Prabh Vai Hai
 You are the creator and killer of people and You are the feeder of creatures inside and outside water. You are everyone’s boss.


 dIn dieAwl dieAw kr sRI piq suMdr sRI pdmwpiq eyhY]4]
Deen Daiyal Daya Kur Sri Pat Sundar Sri Pudmaapat Ai-Hai
 Donor and forgiver, mine of blessings, everyone’s beautiful owner, You are everyone’s God.


 kwm n k®oD n loB n moh n rog n sog n Bog n BY hY]
Kaam Na Karodh na Loab Na Roag Na Soag Na Bhog Na Bhai Hai
 You, God, have no lust, you have no anger, you have no greed, You have no attachments. Disease, tension and fear don’t and can’t come near you. You are away from worldly actions such as eating, feeding, working, family life, etc. 


 dyh ibhIn snyh sBo qn nyh ibrkq Agyh ACY hY]
Deh BeiHeen Sanaeh Sabho Tun Naeh Birakat Agaeh Ashhai Hai
You have no body, You care for everyone, You have no attachments, you have no residence, and You can’t be destroyed.


 jwn ko dyq Ajwn ko dyq jmIn ko dyq jmwn ko dYhY]
Jaan Ko Dait Ajan Ko Dait Jameen Ko Dait Jaman Ko DaiHai
 You give to the ones who remember You, You give to the ones who don’t remember You, and You give to the ones living in and on land and ones living in air.


 kwhy ko folq hY qumrI suD suMdr sRI pdmwpiq lYhY]5]
Kaahay Ko Doalat Hai Tumri Sudh Sundar Sri Pudmaapat Lai Hai
Hey mind! Why are you shaking and worrying? Beautiful God is taking care of you and will continue to take care of you.

 *rogn qy Aru sogn qy jl jogn qy bhu BWiq bcwvY]**
Rogan Tay Aur Sogan Tay Jal Jogan Tay Baho Bhant Bachavai
* *God saves you from disease, tension, creatures in water, and other animals and deadly phenomenon such as lightning and fire.*


 sqR Anyk clwvq Gwv qaU qin eyk n lwgn pwvY]
Satar Anaik Chalavat Ghav Taouu Tun Aik Na Laagan Paavai
 Even if an enemy strikes you with a weapon and if God is with you, nothing will happen to you. God will save you.


 rwKq hY Apno kr dY kr pwp sMbUh n Bytn pwvY]
Raakhat hai Aapno Kur Dai Kur Paap Sambooh Na Bhaitan Paavai
 When God saves you Himself, no sin or evil can look toward you.

AOr kI bwq khw kho qo sO su pyt hI ky pt bIc bcwvY]6]
 Aour Ki Bhaat Kaha Kaho To Saou Sou Pait Hi Kay Putt Beech Bachavai
 What more can I say? God saves a child while the child is in the womb of his mother.

j`C BujMg su dwnv dyv AByv qumY sB hI kr iDAwvY]
Jush Bhujung Sou Daanav Daiv Tummai Sub Hi Kur Dhiavai
 Musicians of gods, snakes, gods and demons believe You are indestructible and unknown so they worship You.


BUim Akws pqwl rswql j`C BujMg sBY isr inAwvYØ]
Bhoom Aakaas Pataal Rasaatal Jush Bhujung Sabbai Siir Niavai  
 Creatures of land, snakes from all the places, and creatures in air such as birds bow to You.


 pwie skY nhI pwr pRBwhU ko nyq hI nyqh byd bqwvY]
Pa-aye Sakkai Nahi Paar Parbhoo Ko Nair Hi Naiteh Baid Bataavai
 No one has been able to find the end of God’s creation, even the Vedas have been unable to find God.


Koj Qky sB hI KujIAwsur hwr pry hir hwiQ n AwvY]7]
Khoaj Thakay Sub Hi Khujiasur Haar Parray Har Haath Na Aavai
 Everyone who tried to find God, including gods, monks, scientists and prophets and others kept on searching but were unable to find God.

nwrd sy cqurwnn sy rumnwirK sy sB hUM imil gwieE]
Naaradh Say Chaturaanan Say RumNaarikh Say Sub Hoo Mil Ga-ayo
Singer Monks like Naard (Muni monk), Brahma who founded the Vedas, Monks like Rumnarakh (Rishi monk) who taught history, and others recited the name of God together. 

byd kqyb n Byd liKE sB hwr pry hir hwQ n AwieE]
Baid Kataib Na Bhaid Lakh-ayo Sub Haar Parray Har Haath Na Aa-ayo  
Vedas and other religious books such as Bible and Kuran didn’t find God. 
They tried and tried but in the end they lost.

pwie skY nhI pwr aumwpiq is`D snwQ snµqn iDAwieE]
Paa-aye Sakkai Nahi Paar Umapat Sidh Sanaath Sanantan Dhia-ay*o*
 Shivji, Siddhas who try to find God through miracles, sons of Brahma, Brahma, Vishnu, etc. tried to find God but none of them found him.

 iDAwn Dro iqh ko mn mYN ijh ko Aimqoij sBY jg CwieE]8]
Dhian Dharo Teh Kay Mun Mai Jeh Ko Amitojh Sabbai Jug Sha-ayo
In your mind focus on God who has spread all over the worl*d.*

 byd purwn kqyb kurwn AByd inRpwn sBY pichwry]
Baid Puraan Kataib Kuran Abhaidh Nirpaan Sabbai Pachihaaray
Readers of Vedas and Puraans (Brahmins), Readers of Koran and Bible (Mullahs, Kazis, Popes, Cardinals, Priests, etc.) and Kings were not able to find God. In the end, all of them died.

Byd n pwie sikE AnByd ko Kydq hY AnCyd pukwry]
 Bhaid Na Pa-aye Sakio Aanbhaid Ko Khaydat Hai AunShaid PookaarayTrying to find God, who is unseen, they said that God in indestructible and without flaws. 

wg n rUp n ryK n rMg n swk n sog n sMig iqhwry]
Raag Na Roop Na Raikh na Rung Na Saak Na Soag Na Sung Tihaaray
God, who is without music, physical characteristics, destiny, colour, relationships and tension, is always with you.

Awid Anwid AgwiD AByK AdÍYK jipE iqnhI kul qwry]9]
Aade Anade Agadhe ABhaikh Aadvaikh Japio Tinhee Kul Taaray
 God! You have no beginning or end from the start, You have no physical characteristics and You have no manifestation. Those who mediate on You, have their family liberated.

 qIrQ kot kIey iesnwn dIey bhu dwn mhw bRq Dwry]
Teerath Koat Keeay Isnaan Deeay Baho Maha Bhrt Dhaaray
 By Sanyasis, Monks and others: Baths were taken at millions of bathing shrines, countless donations were given, and many different fasts were taken and other rituals were performed.


 dys iPirE kr Bys qpo Dn kys Dry n imly hir ipAwry]
Dais Phirio Kur Bhais Tapou Dhan Kais Dharay Na Milay Har Piaray
 Made yourself look like a Saint and ran around in many countries, turned your hair into braids but couldn’t find God.

*Awsn kot kry AstWg Dry bhu inAws kry muK kwry]*
Aasan Koat Karay Aastaang Dharay Baho Niaas Karay Mukh Kaaray
 Sat with eyes closed, ran away from many worldly deeds, read many mantras and touched your body parts to see what was happening, blackened your face with ashes to find God.


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## drkhalsa (Aug 19, 2007)

Dear Aad002 ji   For Dasam Granth you can use this serch engine   Pathway to God @ SearchGurbani.Com  It has alos got other Bani's as well  

And I still think that both are same shabads!is the fullshabad and mine reference is Partial one 

Amrit Kirtan Gutka is collection of shabad that are commonly used  for keertan 

Thanks  Jatinder Singh


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 19, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all Jatinder Jee!

Thanks for your efforts. It looks like that the translator has tried to skip or avoid the explanation. God knows why?
Also, the translation referred by Aad0002 Jee is not convincing. Jal Jogan cannot mean 'creatures in water, and other animals and deadly phenomenon such as lightning and fire."
Human beings face so many problems on earth. Is Jal Jogan something special kind of problem?

Perhaps someone has a direct contact with the Sikh intellectuals or has other translations to refer. Thanks.
I do not know if Raagees who sing this Sabad with passion will give sometime to explain it here or on a stage.


Balbir Singh


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 19, 2007)

i read those verses and am reassured that God saves me from all sankats.

isn't this important or "exact" meaning of Jal Jogan ?


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 19, 2007)

*rogn qy Aru sogn qy jl jogn qy bhu BWiq bcwvY]*
*Rogan Tay Aur Sogan Tay Jal Jogan Tay Baho Bhant Bachavai*


*Rogan te – from diseases*
*Sogan te – from disappointments*
*Jal Jogan – from lightening ( Jal refers to rain jogan refers to electricity)*
*Baho Bhant – from many other evils (unknown to us)*
*Bachavai – will protect you.*

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## spnadmin (Aug 19, 2007)

Respected Ekmsafir and Drkhals

This is the forum at its best in my humble opinion. The discussion forces us take a close look at things.

Actually Drkhalsa, I have seen this difference before -- the raag Artee includes lines that are similar to verses in Sohila -- one is in the raags and the other is in Adi Granth. It is actually very interesting to see how context changes. Thanks for the Search Engine reference. You have, I think, the shabad in original form, not me. The one I posted is the raag. 

The verse means what it means -- and thanks to Ekmusafir. And thanks to both of you.

Went overboard -- but on purpose -- so that the discussion can't careen out of control with stray terms here and there that can be understood anyway someone wants to twist it. Which of course Balbir is bent to do as in his desire to make it a big mystery!

*"Also, the translation referred by Aad0002 Jee is not convincing. Jal Jogan cannot mean 'creatures in water, and other animals and deadly phenomenon such as lightning and fire."
Human beings face so many problems on earth. Is Jal Jogan something special kind of problem? "

Balbir, creatures in the water can be scary -- the ocean is a scary place -- life can be just as scary -- it was really scary during the time of the Persian mughals -- terrifying in fact -- it is scary today. This jal jogan becomes a way of describing our fears-- the raag is a way of being liberated from our fears for eternity.  What are you waiting for?*


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 19, 2007)

Respected aad ji,

There is no mystery. Please refer to my corrections. Balbir is only trying to educate himself or clearing his cob webs with our assistance. It seems like the new steek he has bought is over stretching his imagination and he turns to us for help to educate him.

 ekmusafir_ajnabi

PS Aad ji, All shabads are in raag form. There is no question of orignal and in raag. They are one and the same.


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## drkhalsa (Aug 19, 2007)

> Respected aad ji,
> 
> There is no mystery. Please refer to my corrections. Balbir is only trying to educate himself or clearing his cob webs with our assistance. It seems like the new steek he has bought is over stretching his imagination and he turns to us for help to educate him.


Dear Friend 

I fail to see any Cob Webs in Understanding of Balbir Singh Ji
I just believe that what ever he wants to convey or share with others , he makes a activity out of it and this activity is being called mystery by Aad002 ji. Its just like when we create small activities for children just to get their brain going .

Ifeel same about your posts they are very clear I can almost see through them I sometime feel like that there is no body present there delivering the message but just the message 

About Aad ji I presume he is quite new to sikhism and thing that attracts my attention to his posts are his non dogmatic thinking . Now a days due to so much classification and grouping in Sikhism its hard to find people without  very strong dogma ( which obviously means limitations) that they always carry along     so all in all I m enjoying my time here 


Now coming to the topic 
 So as ek musaafir ji explained Jogan means : Bulaava/evil forces /desires /form of may a  I guess
So it does make sense a little bit to me but again I know Balbir singh ji will have something to add to it definately and waiting for it

Jatinder Singh


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 19, 2007)

drkhalsa said:


> Dear Friend
> 
> Ifeel same about your posts they are very clear I can almost see through them I sometime feel like that there is no body present there delivering the message but just the message


 
I am not quite sure what you are referring to - kindly elaborate here or in PM. I will be happy to answer any serious question if it is within my grasp but not in the Forum.

What takes place here is a past time activity. No one is serious or no one wants to take things serious. Everyone wants to express their viewpoint and that is it. As Kabir ji says:            

"Logan Ram Khillona Janna"

Spirituality is not taken Seriousily. Sikhism is the most natural and toughest of all religion. You have to die. Yet be alive.



> Now coming to the topic
> So as ek musaafir ji explained Jogan means : Bulaava/evil forces /desires /form of may a I guess
> So it does make sense a little bit to me but again I know Balbir singh ji will have something to add to it definately and waiting for it
> 
> Jatinder Singh


 
Sorry, I have made changes to the meaning of Jal Jogan. The latest is What comes from the old masters. But the essence of both is the same, Meaning that Guru/ God protects us from all eventualities.

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 19, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Ekmusafir_ajnabi Jee!

Thanks for your try. Lage raho munna Bhai. One day a 'batayr' may come in your hand flying.
Since when Guessing has become a method to grasp Gurbani?

Quote "Jal Jogan – from lightening ( Jal refers to rain jogan refers to electricity)"
Some persons remember rain when they hear the word Jal (water) and they remember electricity hearing the word Jogan. Sure. Why not?
Is Gurdev talking about thunder or electricity?

Quote "Baho Bhant – from many other evils (unknown to us)"
I have heard 'Bahu' means many. Nevertheless, I never heard 'Bhant' means other evils (unknown to us).
May I ask what is your source of knowledge?

**************

Quote from Aad0002 Jee "Balbir, creatures in the water can be scary -- the ocean is a scary place -- life can be just as scary -- it was really scary during the time of the Persian mughals -- terrifying in fact -- it is scary today. This jal jogan becomes a way of describing our fears-- the raag is a way of being liberated from our fears for eternity."
I am not sure if Gurdev is confirming that God saves people also from the fear from creatures in the water.
Should one have fears from creatures in the water to be saved by God?

**************

Quote from Ekmusafir_ajnabi Jee "Balbir is only trying to educate himself or clearing his cob webs with our assistance."
Human beings do not need help from spiders to understand Gurbani.

Quote "Sorry, I have made changes to the meaning of Jal Jogan. The latest is What comes from the old masters. But the essence of both is the same, Meaning that Guru/ God protects us from all eventualities."
Thanks for the changes but the question is the same and unsolved.

**************

Quote from Amarsanghera Jee "i read those verses and am reassured that God saves me from all sankats. isn't this important or "exact" meaning of Jal Jogan ?"
This is a great approach and very true.

**************

Quote from Jatinder Jee "So it does make sense a little bit to me but again I know Balbir singh ji will have something to add to it definately and waiting for it"
I promise. I will not be a blockage when God wants to share something with the world through me.

By the way has someone tried the answer from the learned people at Gurudwaras.


Balbir Singh


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## Archived_Member_19 (Aug 19, 2007)

Balbir ji

why don't you question your own mind yourself?

only those find God who contemplate on it themselves.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Aug 20, 2007)

It looks like Balbir is playing a Game of 

"Kaun banega Satguru"

From all his comments he is trying to sieve knowledge from all participants so that he can form an answer to suit his illogic.



> Quote from Ekmusafir_ajnabi Jee "Balbir is only trying to educate himself or clearing his cob webs with our assistance."
> Human beings do not need help from spiders to understand Gurbani.


 
His answer above depicts his narrow understanding.

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## spnadmin (Aug 21, 2007)

Always meticulously prepared with each and every necessary detail --------- Ekmusafir ji has given us the background that we may understand what it means to play A Game of Kaun Banega Satguru:
Excelsior... Nation  I learn something new each time! Thanks!

_P/S "All shabads are in raag form." This is correct. No question about that. But some raags are in the Amrit Keertan Raag Index and some are not. My example shows that the same line Rogan Tay Aur Sogan Tay Jal Jogan Tay Baho Bhant Bachavai__appears in two different places (Dasam Granth v Amrit Keertan Index), in two distinctly different shabads/raags, giving two separate contexts, and has invited two different translations, by two different scholars. That was all I was trying to say. Just like Artee and Sohila are not the same thing. My reference is a personal communication with Dandami scholar Bhai Sukha Singh. Sorry if I was not precise._


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 21, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

Knowing that some participants have direct connection with Sikh Scholars is interesting. Perhaps these Scholars have wireless contact with Waheguru and the Gurus.
Can someone please provide another suggestion to the solution of the term 'Jal Jogan'?


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Aug 21, 2007)

Balbir ji

The next time I communicate with Bhai ji I will ask him. As for _jal jogan_ -- quite a neat phrase it turns out. _Jal_ means water. But _jogan_ is more difficult. As noted earlier, the translation on page 87 of _Dasam Granth _just skips over the phrase _jal jogan_ and does not translate it at all. A systematic search of the phrase _jogan_ indicates that it means different things depending on which Scriptures you examine. Yes I am not dogmatic. I am open to multiple possibilities. Don't really know if many are interested in the results of the investigation. But the meaning of _jogan_ seems entirely dependent on what a translator does with the surrounding context of the shabad. It is a riddle, isn't it?  Anyway I am flattered that you took the time to read my note.  

The modern raagis you mentioned in your first comment -- you are right -- they seem to enjoy the idea of _jogan_ and use it a lot. One popular song is the _Punjabi Shake, with the lyric, Jogan Hogaye Ve._ And another is   _LADYS AND GENTLEMAN PUT YOUR HANDS TOGETHTER ... tainu jogan hona pai jau ga Mai Ishq de alleya zakhmaN day ... tainu jogan hauna pai jau ga Mai sassi, sohni, heer wang __._.which comes up on the Google Search Engine a lot. I know you have a great sense of humor and you probably would find this entertaining. On a more serious note it is possible to buy on CD _Rogan Te Ar Sogan Te Jal Jogan Te Baho Bhant Bachave_ at an Internet site.


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 21, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Aad002 Jee!

Thanks for your post. After a long time you have written like a gentlewoman, your true nature.

In the mentioned punjabi songs the word Jogan comes for the female companion of a Jogee.

I find it pity that translators, Raagees and preachers are not able to explain Guru's words correctly. Only reading Guru's words perfectly does not help. It is shocking to observe the state of all seekers visiting Gurudwaras not only youths.
We need a lot to learn to become a complete Sikh, I feel. Better join hands.


Balbir Singh


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## TGill (Aug 21, 2007)

SSA Balbir ji and all !

I feel that more than looking out for the correct interpretation of every single word, it is  important to feel the beauty of the verse in totality (purely my personal opinion), the intrepretation follows along with a bliss within.

Everyone is at different level of mental and spiritual plane, everyone's journey is totally his/her own. Joining hands will only create friction.

We don't need to learn at all to become a sikh.. Pothi par par jag mua pandit bhaya na koe, dhai aakhar prem ke parhe so pandit hoye... Only a lesson of humility and love is enough.

Why bother about how bhai jis interpret the words, who cares about them !  
bhul chuk maaf


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## Archived_member2 (Aug 21, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all And TGill Jee!

Quote "Joining hands will only create friction."
Joining hands may help while living in the outer world. It may be with a companion or in a prayer. I have luckily good experiences.
On the inner journey even our hands do not accompany us. One falls in God's hands then happily.
Quote "We don't need to learn at all to become a sikh."
Perhaps they need one lot (dhai aakhar) of true NAM.

Quote "Why bother about how bhai jis interpret the words, who cares about them !"
I do not know why I felt love with the Sangat.


Balbir Singh


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## TGill (Aug 21, 2007)

Totally accept it !


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## spnadmin (Aug 21, 2007)

Wow! We are all being nice to each other today. Feels good doesn't it?


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## explorer (Aug 27, 2007)

Hi All,

As per Mahan Kosh, Jaljogan refers to the various lifeforms in the sea i.e Crocodile( MagarMachh), Tendua etc.

Please refer to Mahankosh page no. 1817.
Its available as PDF file on Gurbanifiles.org, a source for Sri Guru Granth Sahib files and more website.


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## spnadmin (Aug 27, 2007)

explorer

You are correct. If we don't believe you we can take a look at all the references to "jogan" in Dasam Granth to figure out why you are on the right track. And then look at the references to "jogan" in Siri Guru Granth Sahib to understand why these would not make sense in the context of either shabad quoted in this thread. And all will, with slight mental effort, see why "jal jogan" has to refer to creatures in the water that wander aimlessly about and in an endless mission to feed on flesh and blood -- like eels, crocodiles and sharks.  

Thanks for cross-referencing to Mahan Kosh. It is not translated into English to my knowledge.

Simple deduction.


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## harpreetsingh (Aug 27, 2007)

I quote from the above.It is the apt way to end something that keeps on dragging without any meaning.

"Pothi par par jag mua pandit bhaya na koe, dhai aakhar prem ke parhe so pandit hoye.":roll:


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## spnadmin (Aug 27, 2007)

Harpreetsingh ji, what is the meaning of meaning?

I think this one is more appropriate actually.

pMifq pMifq jil mUey mUrK aubry Bwig 
*pa(n)ddith pa(n)ddith jal mooeae moorakh oubarae bhaag*
_The Pandits, the religious scholars, have been burnt to death, while the illiterate ones run to safety.
_
Kabeer, page 1373, SGGS


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## explorer (Aug 28, 2007)

Dea Aad0002 ji,

In the above post, you have quoted the Gurbani verse incompletely and the meaning is also limited to literal tranlation and is therefor incorrect.

First lets look at the complete verse :

ਕਬੀਰ ਕੋਠੀ ਕਾਠ ਕੀ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਆਗਿ ॥ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਜਲਿ ਮੂਏ ਮੂਰਖ ਉਬਰੇ ਭਾਗਿ ॥੧੭੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1373}

Here Pandit does not mean Brahman(or a literate person), it actually means those people who think they are intelligent(and actually theya are dumb).

And Moorakhs means people whom these so-called intelligent  people consider as fools( but they are actually wise).

The Gurbani verse means that this world is like a house of wood(Kothi Kaath ki) and "Dah Dis Laagee Aag" means its engulfed into fire from all directions.

Its a metaphorical language which says : People who under the influence of Maya which is like fire "Jaise agan Udar maih, Tasiee Bahar Maya"

Those are only involved in material pursuits are like people sitting in the house of wood which has caught fire..............  and still they thing they are intelligent.............  And those who run away from maya( are in influenced) are the one's who are wise.

Thanks


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## spnadmin (Aug 28, 2007)

I know, I know,  explorer ji!. The meaning and the entire shabad are very familiar to me. Somehow I always trigger a nerve. Maybe I should have taken the advice of Harpreetsingh and cut myself off at the pass. Forget I even brought it up. It is time for me to go.


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## Astroboy (Aug 28, 2007)

*Odd how the creative power at once*
* brings the whole universe to order. *

*- Virginia Woolfe -*


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## TGill (Aug 28, 2007)

who is Virginia Woolfe !! 

*Odd how the creative power at once
brings the whole universe to order. *

Begum ji when was the last time you saw this happening !!


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## Astroboy (Aug 28, 2007)

The torment of human frustration, whatever its immediate cause, is the knowledge that the self is in prison, its vital force and "mangled mind" leaking away in lonely, wasteful self-conflict.

- Elizabeth Drew -


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## TGill (Aug 28, 2007)

holy **** !! now who is Elizabeth Drew, and what's wrong with her, why she writes like this, and why don't you write on your own...


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## Archived_member2 (Sep 6, 2007)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Explorer Jee!

Quote "As per Mahan Kosh, Jaljogan refers to the various lifeforms in the sea i.e Crocodile( MagarMachh), Tendua etc."
Thanks for the references. Knowing when Gurdev lived near sea full of dangerous life forms would be interesting. Perhaps research scholars may find more experiences from the Gurus based on Mahan Kosh or books from other Sikh writers.

Balbir Singh


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