# Further Action For One Who Have Changed Ardas In Finland



## vijaydeep Singh (Jun 22, 2009)

Gurfateh

There has been change in Ardas, where term Bhagouti is replaced by Akal Purakh in Finland.

Further they have changed the saying from Behold Granth Sahib Ji as Guru to behold Panth as Guru. They will be remembering 35 contributers of Gurbani also.

So as per das, it appears that their intentions are not Bad.

But a few suggestion.

As Baba Ram Rai replaced Musalman with beiman, changing Bani is not liked. Though Bhagouti and Akal Purakh both are same yet better is to use the Ardas done by groups like Sevapanthis.(though RSS claims that they have record of Ardas before the Tenth master done taken from Anandpur Sahib, but it will be suicidal for us to have faith in them blindly).

In Sevapanthis, there is an Ardas called  Chhoti(Short)  Ardas.  There  only  Akal  Purakh  is  remembered and it is done in front of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Within Akal Purakha all 35 contributers or our Ten Masters come.

So as per this Oh Akal Purakh after remembering you, we pray. Could be the format and it is as per tradition

So long need to be formal and ritualistic to remember 35 and/or 10 names. While root of all Akal is remembered.

In Nitnem, further we can have Japu Ji, Anand Sahib in morning, Rahiras Sahib(Anand Sahib should be sung just after Sharan Pare Ki Rakho Sarma). And Kirtan Sohila.

Amrit Sanchar could haveJapu Ji, Anand Sahib,  Sodar Rahiras, Kirtan Sohila and Fifth could be Ramkali  sadu  or say one of the Barahmaha or whichever is decided.

Then the Gurudwaras which say that removal of Verse By Tenth Master is solution of all the problem and Sikhs will be best without them should prove practically within the stipulated period of time, that what they said, they have realized in practice also.

If they could not rid themselves or Sikhs of their problems by removing the verse onto Tenth Master then their hypothatification about those verse will be null and void.

Lastly being a strong follower of verse onto Tenth Master, das has no problem with those who do not have faith in them. Problem in with those, who instead of answering the issues raised by the believers, slander them, call them non Sikh or agents of Anti Sikhs.

Das being associated with Missionaries since long is aware that, they are not like that. but some guys from other groups have infiltrated in missionaries and are brining the bad name to them. If they are not fixed then missionaries will go the AKJ way and these infiltrating elements will leave them to some greener pasture.

Missionary themselves being an agent of reform, from bullying in Panth. Now themselves infiltrated by bullies.


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## Inder singh (Jun 22, 2009)

> though RSS claims that they have record of Ardas before the Tenth master done taken from Anandpur Sahib, but it will be suicidal for us to have faith in them blindly).



I do not think it is RSS. Other sikh historians have the tablet of ardas done during Guru gobind singh's time. I have seen it myself in USA with one professor who is working in a University.

My question is the group in Finland is disowning entire bani of tenth master. So just deleting Bhagauti does not make any sense. The other entire pauri minus bhagauti is still being read by them. Does that make any sense?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 22, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> I do not think it is RSS. Other sikh historians have the tablet of ardas done during Guru gobind singh's time. I have seen it myself in USA with one professor who is working in a University.
> 
> My question is the group in Finland is disowning entire bani of tenth master. So just deleting Bhagauti does not make any sense. The other entire pauri minus bhagauti is still being read by them. Does that make any sense?


 
Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

The whole ardaas which is said to be written by Guru Gobind Singh ji is NOT written by our 10th Guru and is a sham. Bhaugati has nothing to do with Ik Ong Kaar and we all know that SGGS starts with Ik Ong Kaar.

Secondly, let me ask you again and I hope you respond it to me this time. What ARDAAS did our nine Gurus used? You know ARDAAS as a word comes hundreds of times in SGGS. They must have used some kind of ARDAAS. Don't you think so?  Do you have a copy of that? If you do then please post it.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 22, 2009)

.


> The whole ardaas which is said to be written by Guru Gobind Singh ji is NOT written by our 10th Guru and is a sham. Bhaugati has nothing to do with Ik Ong Kaar and we all know that SGGS starts with Ik Ong Kaar.


 
Prove that bhaguati is not akal purakh by giving references.

If you and your brotehrs do not believe in ardas pauri then why have not they discorded the entire pauri. is it not a tamasha just delete one word and retain the remaining pauri that is from Dasam granth.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 22, 2009)

TUM THAKUR TUM PEH ARDASS...and Similar instances of  Each and Every SHABAD about ARDASS....ALL ARDASS ever mentioned in SGGS.
No proof is needed of what ARDASS was done by Guru Nanak Ji to Guru Teg baahdur Ji...THIS is why the TOTAL SILENCE or FEIGNED IGNORANCE..pretend never heard/read Tejwant Jis questions. The Authentis SGGS is there.

2. Second reason may be there are no "cut and paste" resources on Ardass during first Nine Gurus..so unable to do the honours !!   what to do ?? keep eyes closed and people may forget the question kabootar style ??


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## Inder singh (Jun 22, 2009)

> 2. Second reason may be there are no "cut and paste" resources on Ardass during first Nine Gurus..so unable to do the honours !!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Some People do not have the cut and paste ability also.   One article of jasbir singh Mann was cut and paste When jasbir mann's points were clarified the otherside just closed his eyes.


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## spnadmin (Jun 23, 2009)

*Inder Ji - Please debate issues. *


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jun 23, 2009)

Gurfateh

Dear Wahiguru Seeker Ji,

We have Ardas done by Tenth Master started with Ek Oankar only.

ੴ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹ ॥
ੴ वाहिगुरू जी की फतह ॥
The Lord is one and the Victory is of the Lord.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥
स्री भगउती जी सहाइ ॥
May SRI BHAGAUTI JI (The Sword) be Helpful.

ਵਾਰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜੀ ਕੀ ॥ ਪਾਤਸਾਹੀ ੧੦ ॥
वार स्री भगउती जी की ॥ पातसाही १० ॥
The Heroic Poem of Sri Bhagauti Ji (Goddess Durga). (By) Th Tenth Kingg (Guru).

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਕੈ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਈਂ ਧਿਆਇ ॥
प्रिथम भगौती सिमरि कै गुरु नानक लईं धिआइ ॥
In the beginning I remember Bhagauti, the Lord (Whose symbol is the sword and then I remember Guru Nanak.

So we find the Bhagouti coming after Ek Oankar. As after creation of visible form of energy ie Light we do get power of Bhagouti/Shakti vide sword.

Why should a shammer writer in next verse of the same text ?

ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥
तै ही दुरगा साजि कै दैता दा नासु कराइआ ॥
O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons.

while term Bhagouti is used for sword in same text in verse 53 perhaps vide.

ਦੁਹਾਂ ਕੰਧਾਰਾਂ ਮੁਹਿ ਜੁੜੇ ਨਾਲ ਧਉਸਾ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
दुहां कंधारां मुहि जुड़े नाल धउसा भारी ॥
Alongwith the sounding of the large trumpet, both the forces faced each other.

ਲਈ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਦੁਰਗਸਾਹਿ ਵਰਜਾਗਣਿ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
लई भगउती दुरगसाहि वरजागणि भारी ॥
Durga held out her sword, appearing like  great lustrous fire;

ਲਾਈ ਰਾਜੇ ਸੁੰਭ ਨੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਐ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥
लाई राजे सु्मभ नो रतु पीऐ पिआरी ॥
She struck it on the king Sumbh and this lovely weapon drinks blood.

ਸੁੰਭ ਪਲਾਣੋ ਡਿਗਿਆ ਉਪਮਾ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥
सु्मभ पलाणो डिगिआ उपमा बीचारी ॥
Sumbh fell down from the saddle for which the following simile hath been thought.

So Bhagouti is here clearly told for sword, there are some other instance with the text by Tenth Master where Bhagouti is used for sword and sword only.

We find stammers saying that Bhagouti at start means goddess and not sword so in verse 1 it may not be sword but demigoddess.

Then we have an example sword again by different name  given  respect.

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
The Lord is One and He can be attained through the grace of the true Guru.

ਅਥ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਲਿਖਯਤੇ ॥
अथ बचित्र नाटक ग्रंथ लिखयते ॥
Now the Granth (Book) entitled `BACHITTAR NATAK` is composed.

ਤ੍ਵਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
त्वप्रसादि ॥
BY THY GRACE.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਬਾਕ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦॥
स्री मुखबाक पातशाही १०॥
From the Holy Mouth of the Tenth King (Guru)

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
दोहरा ॥
DOHRA

ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਖੜਗ ਕੋ ਕਰੋਂ ਸੁ ਹਿਤੁ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥
नमसकार स्री खड़ग को करों सु हितु चितु लाइ ॥
I salute the Glorious SWORD with all my heart`s affection.

ਪੂਰਨ ਕਰੋਂ ਗਰੰਥ ਇਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਮੁਹਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੧॥
पूरन करों गरंथ इहु तुम मुहि करहु सहाइ ॥१॥
I shall complete this Granth only if Thou Helpest me. I.

ਤ੍ਰਿਭੰਗੀ ਛੰਦ ॥
त्रिभंगी छंद ॥
TRIBHAGI STANZA

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਾਲ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤਿ ॥
स्री काल जी की उसतति ॥
The Eulogy of the Revered Death (KAL).

(then let us see who is this Kaal)


ਖਗ ਖੰਡ ਬਿਹੰਡੰ ਖਲ ਦਲ ਖੰਡੰ ਅਤਿ ਰਣ ਮੰਡੰ ਬਰ ਬੰਡੰ ॥
खग खंड बिहंडं खल दल खंडं अति रण मंडं बर बंडं ॥
The sword chops well, chops the forces of fools and this mighty one bedecks and glorifies the battlefield.

ਭੁਜ ਦੰਡ ਅਖੰਡੰ ਤੇਜ ਪ੍ਰਚੰਡੰ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਮੰਡੰ ਭਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੰ ॥
भुज दंड अखंडं तेज प्रचंडं जोति अमंडं भान प्रभं ॥
It is the unbreakable staff of the arm, it has the powerful luster and its light even bedims the radiance of the sum.

ਸੁਖ ਸੰਤਾ ਕਰਣੰ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਦਰਣੰ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਹਰਣੰ ਅਸਿ ਸਰਣੰ ॥
सुख संता करणं दुरमति दरणं किलबिख हरणं असि सरणं ॥
It brings happiness to the saints, mashing the vicious ones, it is the destroyer of sins and I and under its refuge.

ਜੈ ਜੈ ਜਗ ਕਾਰਣ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਬਾਰਣ ਮਮ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਰਣ ਜੈ ਤੇਗੰ ॥੨॥
जै जै जग कारण स्रिसटि उबारण मम प्रतिपारण जै तेगं ॥२॥
Hail, hail to the cause of the world, saviour of the universe, it is my preserver, I hail its victory. 2.


Then we find some trouble with the following verses


ਦੁਰਗਾ ਪਾਠ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਸਭੇ ਪਉੜੀਆਂ ॥
दुरगा पाठ बणाइआ सभे पउड़ीआं ॥
All the Pauris (stanza) of this DURGA PATH (The text about the exploits of Durga) have been composed;

ਫੇਰਿ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਇਹ ਗਾਇਆ ॥੫੫॥
फेरि न जूनी आइआ जिनि इह गाइआ ॥५५॥
And that person who sings it, will not take birth again.55.

ਇਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ ਸਮਾਪਤੰ ਸਤੁ ਸੁਭਮ ਸਤੁ
इति स्री दुरगा की वार समापतं सतु सुभम सतु

First let us take Var Durga Ki. We have Var Siri Rag Ki(it may mean Var for the love of goddess Laxmi)We have Asa Di Var. In the same way we find Durga is a Rag, So no one has any restriction bestowed onto Tenth Master to not to use a new Rag(He even made new style of Khayal, now popular in Sufi , by Peer E Hind Dashmesh, As a Sikh das finds glory of Tenth Master understood by them but we ??).

Coming to Durga Path.


ਰਾਗੁ  ਗਉੜੀ  ਪੂਰਬੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੪  ਕਰਹਲੇ 
रागु गउड़ी पूरबी महला ४ करहले 
Rāg ga▫oṛī pūrbī mėhlā 4 karhale 
Raag Gauree Poorbee, Fourth Mehl, Karhalay: 
(Ang 234)

Here name of the composition by God is given as Camel, but it does not mean that we are to worship camel in here. So lesson of Durga(a creation of Akal) motivate to fight unjust evil by rising the mind above from thought full ness into full concentration of fight.(in final assault  thinkers   may not survive).

So now as sword is proved.

 weather sword or Ek Onakar.

Well a few suggestion on that issue.

We can remove sword from our emblem or Nishan Sahib, We could remove Khanda from all Gurudwara, we could remove Kirpan from Kirpan Bhet of Karrah Prasad, We could remove Kirpan from Amrit Sanchar, perhaps from Kakars also. all could be shammed ,done by Vam Margi Shakta Mati Brahmin(in Tantric Granths no where name used for goddess is addressed for any weapon, only knife is praised when sacrifice of goat is done, for its being tool for the offering of demigoddess). So let us replace everything with Ek Oankar.

When Muslims or Hindus come to grab or misbehave with our female folks. OK , we will use Ek Oankar.

All is well.


Coming to Ardas before the Tenth Master, as told above they must have thought of Akal Purakh, at that time Charan Pahil was not from the feet or thumb of Human but from the corner of cloth called Rumala covering  Shri Guru  Granth Sahib Ji( as per  Sau  Sakhi,  Mangal  Prakash by Baba Ram  Kaur).

So Amrit sorry, only Bani is Amrit (As per anyway all matter is made up of energy so which itself is eternal, quarks making nuclear matter are vibrations or words only so saying only Bani is Amrit is not as per science but of the level of junior school science)  So  Pahil  could  be made in this way.

Next as per Sevapanthis Ardas could be done only be remembering Akal. 

Das wrote about Ardas is first post. That Ardas RSS guys talk is the one used before Tenth Master started the present Day Ardas.

Soon we will find that as in past Hindus as per Manusamriti, were to cut hairs only as an offense, else they had to keep hairs.(Term Churha Sanskar refered to making ball of hairs, which Brahmins misinterpreted later to shave or Mundan, just to appease Jain and Buddhist rulers). so it is some one shamming as agent of Hindu has told us to keep uncut hairs.

Sorry for an outburst of emotions. Forgive das considering him as an idiot child.  Yet to be a  Sikh.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jun 23, 2009)

Gurfateh 
A few things were left out and remembered later.so are put in here.

Ek Oankar is sound of creation, small units of vibrating energy(quarks)  in form of sound unite together, they form protons, neutrons etc. Which form atoms. 

So sword is formed of Ek Oankar only.

If Hindus respect their Ramayana or Gita , we will not stop respecting Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

As in us we have unprecedented thing to behold text as Guru, so do we behold sword, as manifestation of God helping us to gain the rule.(yes those who fear the lose of rule, may motivate us to stay away from this tendency).

We show respect to text in Gurudwara and say praises to Sabad, a form of Ek Oankar, why can not we praise Ek Oankars form of sword.

Similar to today, in time before 1984, we had followers of a scholar from Ambala, undermining the sword and going just after Ek Oankar. During 84 riots they had three things in their acts.
1. Some went to Punjab and stayed as refuge taking help from those who beheld Bhagouti as sword.
2. Some took refuge to the home of Hindus, who called demigoddess as Bhagouti.
3. Some shaved of their head and made Demigoddess Bhagouti as their object of worship.

There were some like one in Sultanpuri and Ananad Parbat, who respect Shri Bhagouti Ji, with that they repulsed the attackers and still there there as Singh/lions.

In Tu Takhur Tum Pai Ardas, we find term Thakur. In Hindus Takhur means a black stone of Saligram(As per Chartropakhyan 266, how could be this(demigod) could be God, who becomes stone by the curse of female demon(Tulsi, wife of Jallandher cursed Vishnu to be stone ,as he outraged her modesty, else her Husband would not have been defeated)). so as Hindu deem stone as Thakur so we should stop this Ardas also.

So if Hindu deem name of our sword same as demigoddess then there is no need for us to stop respecting the sword.

As by respect of the views of other we allow them to follow their faith with tolerating them, then we have right to defend our faith, from the slander due to either being misguided due to lack of knowledge or due to having vested interest.

We find it an attack on our faith if someone attacks our customs. So we reply by clarifying yet, we do not make statement to bully other into our point of view or hurt the sentiment of others. Making statement without sound knowledge or spiritual level on the vital things of Panth often hurt. But hurt from brethren is alway welcome as it makes our resolve strong.

As per one interview of Maan Singh Ji Nirankari with Gurcharanjeet Singh Lamba, Nirankari Ji said that Initial Nine Gurus had Mundan/shaving of head. So by logic often repeated here as seen, Tenth Master could not support the uncut hairs.

Ninth Master could not use Rag Jai Jai wanti as none before him used this in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. No Guru other then him used term Raghunath So on and so forth.


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## Inder singh (Jun 23, 2009)

PERSONAL ATTACK REMOVED read below

ਆਪੇ ਸਕਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਸਕਤੀ ਜਗਤੁ ਪਰੋਵਹਿ ॥:

Aape sakataa aape surataa sakatee jagatu parovahi:

You Yourself are All-powerful, the Intuitive Knower and the Sakti; on which the whole world is strung

(sggs 1242).


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 23, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> .
> 
> 
> Prove that bhaguati is not akal purakh by giving references.
> ...


 
Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

There you go again spewing your Krodh, one of 5 thieves we have to learn how to handle. There is no need to be so disdainful and angry. We are trying to learn from each other and disagreements are part of the learning process.

You as an intelligent person knows that one can not prove a negative and we only do diyaan ( Meditate- your copied and pasted favorite word) about Ik Ong Kaar not about Guru Nanak or any other Guru as the Ardaas says.  The Ardaas that you claim is written by our 10th Guru urges us to worship an idol called Bhaguati- Sword- a Hindu Goddess and meditate on our 10 Gurus, NOT on Ik Ong Kaar which SGGS- our ONLY GURU tells us to. So once again according to SGGS- our ONLY GURU- The Ardaas is anti Gurmat and hence could NOT have been written by Guru Gobind Singh ji.

So I would like to you STOP dispespecting our 10th Guru with your Hindu mentality. When you do that, you disrespect the whole Khalsa Panth. Your tricks about introducing Hindutva have failed and will never succeed, no matter how much you try.


Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 23, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Inder Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



So again useless rumblings which have no relevance to the topic on hand.

People who have no knowledge about the topic will write in general instead of specifics.
Religious issues of sikhs are decided by Akal takhat sahib. They are the ones who decide what is gurmat and waht is anti gurmat. So an observant sikh follows that. Those who want lower standard of sikhism to suit their life will raise so many questions on each and every issue. They have hteir choice and follow anything that like. 

But my question is they have deleted one word from the pauri of dasam granth. Since they have no faith in Dasam granth why they are following the other lines. it makes no sense.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 23, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> So again useless rumblings which have no relevance to the topic on hand.
> 
> People who have no knowledge about the topic will write in general instead of specifics.
> Religious issues of sikhs are decided by Akal takhat sahib. They are the ones who decide what is gurmat and waht is anti gurmat. So an observant sikh follows that. Those who want lower standard of sikhism to suit their life will raise so many questions on each and every issue. They have hteir choice and follow anything that like.
> ...



Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You seem confused once again.

You asked me the following in your post:



> Originally Posted by *Inder singh*
> 
> 
> _.
> ...



I responded to you according to your request. Secondly, as you have claimed to have taken Khandei di pahul then you should know that all Sikh men are brothers. Your claim above that they are only *MY brothers* shows  your Hindu mindset and thanks for sharing your true Hindu mentality with us. Truth always come out. No one can hide it and you in your own statement above have shown that. That is the reason you do not believe and follow SGGS but SRM and Akal Takhat whose Jathedars are political honchos which has nothing to do with Sikhi nor its Spiritual and temporal values and one of them whom you also embrace so gleefully is a known bigamist and lives with two women. It is a shame that you embrace these immoral people rather than the teachings of SGGS, our ONLY GURU.

Thanks for showing your true colours but I must say that all Sikhs are my brothers and I am fortunate to be a Sikh to call them as such.

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 23, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Inder Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



But there is nothing to show in your post that references to Bhagauti. Can you shed some light per reference from Dasam granth about Bhagauti. I asked you same question earlier also.


PERSONAL ATTACK REMOVED


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 23, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> But there is nothing to show in your post that references to Bhagauti. Can you shed some light per reference from Dasam granth about Bhagauti. I asked you same question earlier also.
> 
> Those who slander bani of my dasam pita are not my brothers.



Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

  removed attack Please read my post again. I did mention what Bhagauti means. I have no idea why you have failed to read it or deliberately ignore it.

There is NO PROOF any where  what Guru Gobind Singh ji wrote.People like you make things up so Hindutva can be inserted in Sikhi. SGGS is our ONLY GURU according to Guru Gobind Singh ji. It is a shame that you reject our ONLY GURU, People who want to introduce Hindutva in Sikhi claim lots of false things and you are one of them.

Thanks for admitting that you reject the basic concept of Khandei di Pahul created by our 10th Guru that you claim to have taken which says that all Sikhs are brothers.  

Once again you have proven by your own admission that you, yourself to be a Hindu. You have done that  in your own words as you reject Khalsa brotherhood, which is ok because Sikhs see no difference between people no matter what faith they may belong to.

Tejwant Singh


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## Inder singh (Jun 23, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Inder Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



waheguruseeker

Those who condemn bani of tenth master are agents of Hindus themselves. Dasam granth is more harsh on Hindu deities than SGGS ji. So Hindus have their agents to spread misinformation about this granth.

You have no idea what is akal purakh's shakti. All  you know is slander. Why do not you tell what  is the meaning of Bhagauti. This shows bankcrptucy of your thoughts in action.


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## Inder singh (Jun 23, 2009)

waheguruseeker

Read this before you and your brothers label Bhagauti as devi.  Ignorance is bliss

ਅਨਹਦ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਨੀ ॥
अनहद रूप अनाहद बानी ॥
He is Limitless Entity and hath infinite celestial strain.

ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨਿ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥
चरन सरनि जिह बसत भवानी ॥
The goddess Durga takes refuge at His Feet and abides there.

Akal ustat Dasam Granth sahib


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## Inder singh (Jun 23, 2009)

> Thanks for admitting that you reject the basic concept of Khandei di Pahul created by our 10th Guru that you claim to have taken which says that all Sikhs are brothers.



I love whole humanity. But i reject those who slander bani of my guru.

What about you have you taken khande di pahul?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 23, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> I love whole humanity. But i reject those who slander bani of my guru.
> 
> What about you have you taken khande di pahul?



Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I do not think you understand what you write. May be because of your anger your posts are becoming less cohesive.

FYI, WHOLE HUMANITY includes ALL. NO exception. But you are famous for contradicting yourself in the same sentence.

Yes, I belong to the Khalsa brotherhood where ALL belong to the ONE and are my brothers and mates. That is the whole essence of taking Khandei di Pahul so one can get rid of one's biases and prejudices and embrace all as the children of Guru Gobind Singh. It is a shame you reject  the way our 10th Guru taught us to. That is why you  are proud to flaunt your hatred towards those who disagree with you, hence not following the commandments of the 10th Guru which is shamefully sad.

Tejwant Singh

PS: Sikhi does not believe in any Goddess called  Durga or any other GODs or GODDESSES but IK ONG KAAR. However Hindus do.


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## Inder singh (Jun 23, 2009)

> Yes, I belong to the Khalsa brotherhood where ALL belong to the ONE and are my brothers and mates. That is the whole essence of taking Khandei di Pahul so one can get rid of one's biases and prejudices and embrace all as the children of Guru Gobind Singh. It is a shame you reject  the way our 10th Guru taught us to. That is why you  are proud to flaunt your hatred towards those who disagree with you, hence not following the commandments of the 10th Guru which is shamefully sad.


Finally you are coming to a point, What did panj piaras instruct when you took khnade bate di pahul? What banis did they tell you to recite?

Plaese answer this.




> .PS: Sikhi does not believe in any Goddess called  Durga or any other GODs or GODDESSES but IK ONG KAAR. However Hindus do.


Guru sahib wrote to Aurangzeb that he is a butt shikan ( idol breaker) and not an idol worshipper. That is what the subject line of Dasam Granths says.
ਅਨਹਦ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਨੀ ॥
अनहद रूप अनाहद बानी ॥
He is Limitless Entity and hath infinite celestial strain.

ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨਿ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥
चरन सरनि जिह बसत भवानी ॥
The goddess Durga takes refuge at His Feet and abides there.

Akal ustat Dasam Granth sahib

Then in chandi di vaar guru sahib writesਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
PAURI

ਖੰਡਾ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸਾਜ ਕੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
खंडा प्रिथमै साज कै जिन सभ सैसारु उपाइआ ॥
At first the Lord created the double-edged sword and then He created the  whole world.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਦਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇ ਬਣਾਇਆ ॥
ब्रहमा बिसनु महेस साजि कुदरति दा खेलु रचाइ बणाइआ ॥
He created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and then created the play of Nature.

ਸਿੰਧੁ ਪਰਬਤ ਮੇਦਨੀ ਬਿਨੁ ਥੰਮ੍ਹਾ ਗਗਨਿ ਰਹਾਇਆ ॥
सिंधु परबत मेदनी बिनु थम्हा गगनि रहाइआ ॥
He created the oceans, mountains and the earth made the sky stable without columns.

ਸਿਰਜੇ ਦਾਨੋ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬਾਦੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥
सिरजे दानो देवते तिन अंदरि बादु रचाइआ ॥
He created the demons and gods and caused strife between them.

ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥
तै ही दुरगा साजि कै दैता दा नासु कराइआ ॥
O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons.

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥
तैथों ही बलु राम लै नाल बाणा दहसिरु घाइआ ॥
Rama received power from Thee and he killed Ravana with arrows.

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥
तैथों ही बलु क्रिसन लै कंसु केसी पकड़ि गिराइआ ॥
Krishna received power from Thee and he threw down Kansa by catching his hair.

ਬਡੇ ਬਡੇ ਮੁਨਿ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਕਈ ਜੁਗ ਤਿਨੀ ਤਨੁ ਤਾਇਆ ॥
बडे बडे मुनि देवते कई जुग तिनी तनु ताइआ ॥
The great sages and gods, even practising great austerities for several ages;

Chandi di vaar, dasam granth

How can Durga be bhagauti when above verses sya it otehrwise? Please provide verse to the contrary.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 23, 2009)

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

All what is mentioned above is Hindu mythology which has nothing to do with Sikhi and no one knows who wrote that and for what purpose was it written? Perhaps by some Hindus to instill Hindtuva in the minds of people like you. Our Gurus have explained what Sikhi is all about in SGGS.

You have mentioned yourself  that all that have taken Khandei di Pahul are not your brothers which is contrary to the commandments of our 10th Guru. So it is infutile to talk to you about Khandei di Pahul because those who take it are capable of loving all.

So when you begin to love rather than hate then we can talk about it.

Secondly you are hearing things. I mentioned Durga because you mentioned her as Goddess which you claim Guru Gobind Singh wrote without having any proof.

So when you learn to love your fellow man/woman  and shed this anger and hatred  towards others then we can start our conversation again. Until then, I can only do Ardaas for sarbat da bhala.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jun 24, 2009)

Gurfateh

There are hardly any proof that Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written by Sikh Gurus or Bhagat Bani is authentic or say Tenth Master gave Guruship to Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, if we ignore the other Sikh sources of history and start calling them Brahmanised.

Text by Bhai Desa Singh, Gyani Gyan Singh, Guru Kian Sakhian, Bhai Chupa Singh,Bhai Kesar Singh,Rattan Singh Bhangu etc. talk about the present Ardas while the last one is more explicit. We can say that they are not authantic, Ok we can say Guruship to Shri Guru Granth Sahib Given by Tenth Master also is not authentic.

As Shabad Guru was there in the time of Gurus before the Tenth Master, as they also did not give Guruship to text but was given to single bodied Human, then how could Tenth Master do it ?

So Tenth Master giving Guruship to Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, is not authentic by logic so far seen above. Further as previous Gurus have done Tenth Also did not give Guruship to five beloved one nor to Guru Panth. Rather as we extrapolate as per pattern taken by previous Guru, Tenth Master also gave Guruship to a Human bodied Single(we have Namdharis claiming Baba Balak Singh, Nirnakaris have some one else,Who know Veer Bhunpinder Singh could be next).

In all this process we did very good thing. As an able intellectual sons and daughter of Tenth Master, we stripped him of any innovative Ideas, he ever took. He did nothing new as his previous Gurus, but if we move backward, we find that First Master did some thing new, so Tenth Master could not anyway do something new as First Master. Akal only knows why?

Not only Tenth Master do something unprecedented but also we strip him of his contribution to make Sikhism unique.

when we think Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as eternal Guru and Sabad Guru, we find that that is nothing separate but manifestation of Akal only(this thing will not be understood by atheists who fight for book or personality of Ten Human forms). so we only remember Akal. What else is sword other then Akal only so when we think of sword, we think of Akal only.

ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਮ ਮਾਲਾ
शसत्र नाम माला
SHATRA NAM MALA

ੴ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹ ॥
ੴ स्री वाहिगुरू जी की फतह ॥
The Lord is One and the Victory is of the True Guru.

ਅਥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਮ ਮਾਲਾ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਲਿਖਯਤੇ ॥
अथ स्री शसत्र नाम माला पुराण लिखयते ॥
Shastra-Nama Mala Purana (the Rosary of the Names of weapons) is now composed

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ ॥੧੦॥
स्री भगउती जी सहाइ ॥ पातिशाही ॥१०॥
With the support of the primal power by the Tenth King.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
दोहरा ॥
DOHRA

ਸਾਂਗ ਸਰੋਹੀ ਸੈਫ ਅਸ ਤੀਰ ਤੁਪਕ ਤਲਵਾਰ ॥ ਸੱਤ੍ਰਾਂਤਕ ਕਵਚਾਂਤਿ ਕਰ ਕਰੀਐ ਰੱਛ ਹਮਾਰ ॥੧॥
सांग सरोही सैफ अस तीर तुपक तलवार ॥ स्त्रांतक कवचांति कर करीऐ ्रछ हमार ॥१॥
O Lord ! Protect us by creating Saang, Sarohi, Saif (Sword), As, Teer (arrow) tupak (gun), Talwaar (sword), and other weapons and armours causing the destruction of the enemies.1.

ਅਸ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਧਾਰਾਧਰੀ ਸੈਲ ਸੂਫ ਜਮਦਾਢ ॥ ਕਵਚਾਂਤਕ ਸੱਤ੍ਰਾਂਤ ਕਰ ਤੇਗ ਤੀਰ ਧਰਬਾਢ ॥੨॥
अस क्रिपान धाराधरी सैल सूफ जमदाढ ॥ कवचांतक स्त्रांत कर तेग तीर धरबाढ ॥२॥
O Lord ! Creat As, Kripan (sword), Dharaddhari, Sail, Soof, Jamaadh, Tegh (saber), Teer (saber), Teer (arrow), Talwar(sward), causing the destruction of armours and enemies.2.

ਅਸ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਖੰਡੋ ਖੜਗ ਤੁਪਕ ਤਬਰ ਅਰੁ ਤੀਰ ॥ ਸੈਫ ਸਰੋਹੀ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਯਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੈ ਪੀਰ ॥੩॥
अस क्रिपान खंडो खड़ग तुपक तबर अरु तीर ॥ सैफ सरोही सैहथी यहै हमारै पीर ॥३॥
As, Kripan (sword), Khanda, Khadag (sword), Tupak (gun), Tabar (hatched), Teer (arrow), Saif (sword), Sarohi and Saihathi, all these are our adorable seniors.3.

ਤੀਰ ਤੁਹੀ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤਬਰ ਤਲਵਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਤਿਹਾਰੋ ਜੋ ਜਪੈ ਭਏ ਸਿੰਧ ਭਵ ਪਾਰ ॥੪॥
तीर तुही सैहथी तुही तुही तबर तलवार ॥ नाम तिहारो जो जपै भए सिंध भव पार ॥४॥
Thou are the Teer (arrow), Thou are Saihathi, Thou art Tabar (hatchet), and Talwaar (sword); he, who remembers Thy Name crosses the dreadful ocean of existence.4.

ਕਾਲ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਾਲੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੇਗ ਅਰੁ ਤੀਰ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਨਿਸ਼ਾਨੀ ਜੀਤ ਕੀ ਆਜੁ ਤੁਹੀ ਜਗਬੀਰ ॥੫॥
काल तुही काली तुही तुही तेग अरु तीर ॥ तुही निशानी जीत की आजु तुही जगबीर ॥५॥
Thou art the KAL (death), thou art the goddess Kali, Thou art the saber and arrow, Thou art the sign of victory today and Thou art the Hero of the world.5.

ਤੁਹੀ ਸੂਲ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਤਬਰ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਖੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਬਾਨ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਟਾਰੀ ਸੇਲ ਸਭ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਰਦ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ॥੬॥
तुही सूल सैहथी तबर तूं निखंग अरु बान ॥ तुही कटारी सेल सभ तुमही करद क्रिपान ॥६॥
Thou art the Sool (spike), Saihathi and Tabar (hatched), Thou art the Nikhang and Baan (arrow), Thou art the Kataari, Sel, and all and Thou art the Kard (knife), and Kripaan (sword).6.

ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਸਿਪਰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਵਚ ਨਿਖੰਗ ॥ ਕਵਚਾਂਤਕ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਬਨੇ ਤੁਮ ਬਯਾਪਕ ਸਰਬੰਗ ॥੭॥
शसत्र असत्र तुमही सिपर तुमही कवच निखंग ॥ कवचांतक तुमही बने तुम बयापक सरबंग ॥७॥
Thou art the arms and weapons, Thou art the Nikhang (quiver), and the Kavach (armour); Thou art the destroyer of the armours and Thou art also all pervading.7.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਭ ਕਾਰਨ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਬਿੱਦਯਾ ਕੋ ਸਾਰ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਉਪਰਾਜਹੀ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਲੇਹੁ ਉਬਾਰ ॥੮॥
स्री तूं सभ कारन तुही तूं बि्दया को सार ॥ तुम सभ को उपराजही तुमही लेहु उबार ॥८॥
Thou art the cause of peace and prosperity and the essence of learning; Thou art the creator of all and the redeemer of all.8.

ਤੁਮਹੀ ਦਿਨ ਰਜਨੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਜੀਅਨ ਉਪਾਇ ॥ ਕਉਤਕ ਹੇਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਮਿਤ ਤਿਨ ਮੋ ਬਾਦ ਬਢਾਇ ॥੯॥
तुमही दिन रजनी तुही तुमही जीअन उपाइ ॥ कउतक हेरन के नमित तिन मो बाद बढाइ ॥९॥
Thou art the day and night and Thou art the creator of all the Jivas (beings), causing disputes among them; Thou does all this in order to view Thy own sport.9.
(Chapter one Shashter Naam Mala Puran, glory to Bhagouti)

For Hindus we have Pursha/shiv/kal and Prakrit/shakti/kali as two different thing but for Sikhs all is Akal.
Page 2, Line 9
ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
गुरु ईसरु गुरु गोरखु बरमा गुरु पारबती माई ॥
Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī.
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/S

our state is like the one

[/SIZE]Page 163, Line 8
ਸਿਵਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਮਿਟਾਈਆ ਚੂਕਾ ਅੰਧਿਆਰਾ ॥
सिवि सकति मिटाईआ चूका अंधिआरा ॥
Siv sakaṯ mitā▫ī▫ā cẖūkā anḏẖi▫ārā.
The distinction between Shiva and Shakti - mind and matter - has been destroyed, and the darkness has been dispelled.
*Guru Amar Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

We could understand for enlightened.

[/SIZE]Page 342, Line 4
ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਸਕਤੀ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਸੀਉ ॥
इहु मनु सकती इहु मनु सीउ ॥
Ih man sakṯī ih man sī▫o.
This mind is Shakti; this mind is Shiva.
*Devotee Kabir*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Oneness of Shiv and Shakti is never in Hindus moving in duality. soon Devi Pujan Partal by Bhai Veer Singh Ji be made online to remove all doubts. In Past Arya Samajis rasied the similar doubts and they were given befitting reply.
[/SIZE]
And never ever are we seeing any demigoddess being referd to as sword or gun in any Hindu text.(Bhag Singh Ambala(An ex arya Samaji) qouted Purshcharyanva Tantra, Mahnirvana tantra and Kul Churhmani Tantra, while all taking of praise of knife as tool which sacrifice the offering goat/buffalo  for demigoddess  so  did not give the exact  words  as  a   mark of cheating and like sheep his followers believed in him without verifying the text quoted by him,  we are really  a the prasie worthy Sons and Daughter of Tenth Master, we did no seek proof from the statement of people bashing work done by Akal via him but ask proof for the work Akal did via him)


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## Inder singh (Jun 24, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Inder Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Waheguruseeker

You have not answered my questions.

You say you are amritdhari. What did panj piaasras instruct you?

What banis they asked you to read.

PERSONAL ATTACK REMOVED


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## Inder singh (Jun 24, 2009)

> There are hardly any proof that Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written by Sikh Gurus or Bhagat Bani is authentic or say Tenth Master gave Guruship to Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, if we ignore the other Sikh sources of history and start calling them Brahmanised.



That is the whole point. Once they are through with Dasam granth their next target is Guru granth sahib. Already they are misinterpreting the bani of SGGS ji. Then they will attack bhagat bani. Wahegurseeker's guide has already disputed bhagat bani.


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## Inder singh (Jun 24, 2009)

> Oneness of Shiv and Shakti is never in Hindus moving in duality. soon Devi Pujan Partal by Bhai Veer Singh Ji be made online to remove all doubts. In Past Arya Samajis rasied the similar doubts and they were given befitting reply.



There is no shiv without shakti. But these peopel do not now its meaning.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 24, 2009)

Inder singh said:


> That is the whole point. Once they are through with Dasam granth their next target is Guru granth sahib. Already they are misinterpreting the bani of SGGS ji. Then they will attack bhagat bani. Wahegurseeker's guide has already disputed bhagat bani.



SMOKE SCREEN..or False Alarm.
SGGS attacks began in Guru Amardass Ji time...hence the Guru Warning on kachee Bani....
Has always been there and COMPLETELY FAILED for past 500 YEARS.
Cannot and WILL NOT SUCCEED.
DG should be able to STAND ON ITS OWN FEET instead of leaning on SGGS or hide behind such smokescreen alarms...Rightly said CHOR DE PER NAHIN HUNDEH....:happy::happy:


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## Inder singh (Jun 24, 2009)

> All what is mentioned above is Hindu mythology which has nothing to do with Sikhi



Seeker ji

It is not. It is praise of akal purakh. Read it again below.

ਅਨਹਦ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਨੀ ॥
अनहद रूप अनाहद बानी ॥
He is Limitless Entity and hath infinite celestial strain.

ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨਿ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥
चरन सरनि जिह बसत भवानी ॥
The goddess Durga takes refuge at His Feet and abides there.

Akal ustat Dasam Granth sahib

Then in chandi di vaar guru sahib writesਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
PAURI

ਖੰਡਾ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸਾਜ ਕੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
खंडा प्रिथमै साज कै जिन सभ सैसारु उपाइआ ॥
At first the Lord created the double-edged sword and then He created the  whole world.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਦਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇ ਬਣਾਇਆ ॥
ब्रहमा बिसनु महेस साजि कुदरति दा खेलु रचाइ बणाइआ ॥
He created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and then created the play of Nature.

ਸਿੰਧੁ ਪਰਬਤ ਮੇਦਨੀ ਬਿਨੁ ਥੰਮ੍ਹਾ ਗਗਨਿ ਰਹਾਇਆ ॥
सिंधु परबत मेदनी बिनु थम्हा गगनि रहाइआ ॥
He created the oceans, mountains and the earth made the sky stable without columns.

ਸਿਰਜੇ ਦਾਨੋ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬਾਦੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥
सिरजे दानो देवते तिन अंदरि बादु रचाइआ ॥
He created the demons and gods and caused strife between them.

ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥
तै ही दुरगा साजि कै दैता दा नासु कराइआ ॥
O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons.

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥
तैथों ही बलु राम लै नाल बाणा दहसिरु घाइआ ॥
Rama received power from Thee and he killed Ravana with arrows.

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥
तैथों ही बलु क्रिसन लै कंसु केसी पकड़ि गिराइआ ॥
Krishna received power from Thee and he threw down Kansa by catching his hair.

ਬਡੇ ਬਡੇ ਮੁਨਿ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਕਈ ਜੁਗ ਤਿਨੀ ਤਨੁ ਤਾਇਆ ॥
बडे बडे मुनि देवते कई जुग तिनी तनु ताइआ ॥
The great sages and gods, even practising great austerities for several ages;

Chandi di vaar, dasam granth


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## spnadmin (Jun 24, 2009)

The thread has moved away from the original intent of the thread starter. After continual requests to return to the main topic and/or to connect recent posts to the main topic, nothing has changed. The thread is closed. aad0002


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