# Two Questions About God



## gsingh2011 (Mar 28, 2010)

I have two questions that I was asked a while back and I have been wondering the answers ever since.

First of all, (this was asked by an atheist) if God exists, why do so many "bad" things happen in the world? It got me thinking, why does vaheguru not make everyone good and take out all of the evil in the world?

Second of all, why are we punished for our sins if all of our actions were pre-ordained by God?

Thanks in advance!


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## gsingh2011 (Apr 6, 2010)

Does anyone have any ideas?


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## Astroboy (Apr 6, 2010)

These questions are based on a Human confused mind who does not know our purpose of coming into physical bodies. 

Whether or not we know the purpose, we are still subject to physical laws which is part of His Hukam. We need not have to be explained how our digestive system works but we still feel hungry and require food.  I don't see much difference between an atheist who is asking these questions and a true seeker of God. 

The curiosity of knowing more that there is a greater purpose to life than what appears to be seen on the surface, leads one to eventually unveil the secrets of the spiritual life beyond the physical limitations.

The goal in mind is to journey from the present state of confusion to a present state of realization. The journey is within one's own being. Guru Ji says,

Page  13, Line 18
ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਮਹਲੁ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜੇ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਇਗੋ ਫੇਰਾ ॥੩॥
निज घरि महलु पावहु सुख सहजे बहुरि न होइगो फेरा  ॥३॥
Nij gẖar mahal pāvhu sukẖ  sėhje bahur na ho▫igo ferā. ||3||
Within the home of your own inner  being, you shall obtain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence  with intuitive ease. You shall not be consigned again to the wheel of  reincarnation. ||3||
Guru Arjan Dev    -  view  Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## Astroboy (Apr 6, 2010)

> Second of all, why are we punished for our sins if all of our actions  were pre-ordained by God?



Ang 84 will give us an explanation on how His Hukam works. Hukam is a set of laws which we are all subject to. 

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਪਉੜੀ   ॥ 
पउड़ी ॥ 
Pa▫oṛī. 
Pauree: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਰਿ  ਅੰਦਰਿ  ਬਾਹਰਿ  ਇਕੁ  ਤੂੰ  ਤੂੰ  ਜਾਣਹਿ  ਭੇਤੁ  ॥ 
हरि अंदरि बाहरि इकु तूं तूं  जाणहि भेतु ॥ 
Har anḏar bāhar ik ṯūŉ ṯūŉ jāṇėh bẖeṯ. 
O Lord, You are inside and  outside as well. You are the Knower of secrets. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜੋ  ਕੀਚੈ  ਸੋ  ਹਰਿ  ਜਾਣਦਾ  ਮੇਰੇ  ਮਨ  ਹਰਿ  ਚੇਤੁ  ॥ 
जो कीचै सो हरि जाणदा मेरे मन हरि  चेतु ॥ 
Jo kīcẖai so har jāṇḏā mere man har cẖeṯ. 
Whatever anyone does, the  Lord knows. O my mind, think of the Lord. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸੋ  ਡਰੈ  ਜਿ  ਪਾਪ  ਕਮਾਵਦਾ  ਧਰਮੀ  ਵਿਗਸੇਤੁ  ॥ 
सो डरै जि पाप कमावदा धरमी  विगसेतु ॥ 
So darai jė pāp kamāvḏā ḏẖarmī vigseṯ. 
The one who commits sins  lives in fear, while the one who lives righteously rejoices. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤੂੰ  ਸਚਾ  ਆਪਿ  ਨਿਆਉ  ਸਚੁ  ਤਾ  ਡਰੀਐ  ਕੇਤੁ  ॥ 
तूं सचा आपि निआउ सचु ता डरीऐ  केतु ॥ 
Ŧūŉ sacẖā āp ni▫ā▫o sacẖ ṯā darī▫ai keṯ. 
O Lord, You Yourself are  True, and True is Your Justice. Why should anyone be afraid? 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਿਨਾ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਸਚੁ  ਪਛਾਣਿਆ  ਸੇ  ਸਚਿ  ਰਲੇਤੁ  ॥੫॥ 
जिना नानक सचु पछाणिआ से सचि  रलेतु ॥५॥ 
Jinā Nānak sacẖ pacẖẖāṇi▫ā se sacẖ raleṯ.  ||5|| 
O Nanak, those who  recognize the True Lord are blended with the True One. ||5|| 
</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Astroboy (Apr 6, 2010)

In Ang 93,  Bhagat Ravidas says it beautifully,

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ  ॥ 
सिरीरागु ॥ 
Sirīrāg. 
Sree Raag: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤੋਹੀ  ਮੋਹੀ  ਮੋਹੀ  ਤੋਹੀ  ਅੰਤਰੁ  ਕੈਸਾ  ॥ 
तोही मोही मोही तोही अंतरु कैसा ॥ 
Ŧohī mohī mohī ṯohī anṯar kaisā. 
You are me, and I am  You-what is the difference between us? 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਨਕ  ਕਟਿਕ  ਜਲ  ਤਰੰਗ  ਜੈਸਾ  ॥੧॥ 
कनक कटिक जल तरंग जैसा ॥१॥ 
Kanak katik jal ṯarang jaisā. ||1|| 
We are like gold and the  bracelet, or water and the waves. ||1|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਉ  ਪੈ  ਹਮ  ਨ  ਪਾਪ  ਕਰੰਤਾ  ਅਹੇ  ਅਨੰਤਾ  ॥ 
जउ पै हम न पाप करंता अहे अनंता ॥ 
Ja▫o pai ham na pāp karanṯā ahe ananṯā. 
If I did not commit any  sins, O Infinite Lord, 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਪਤਿਤ  ਪਾਵਨ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਕੈਸੇ  ਹੁੰਤਾ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
पतित पावन नामु कैसे हुंता ॥१॥  रहाउ ॥ 
Paṯiṯ pāvan nām kaise hunṯā. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
how would You have  acquired the name, 'Redeemer of sinners'? ||1||Pause|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ  ਜੁ  ਨਾਇਕ  ਆਛਹੁ  ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ  ॥ 
तुम्ह जु नाइक आछहु अंतरजामी ॥ 
Ŧumĥ jo nā▫ik ācẖẖahu anṯarjāmī. 
You are my Master, the  Inner-knower, Searcher of hearts. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਤੇ  ਜਨੁ  ਜਾਨੀਜੈ  ਜਨ  ਤੇ  ਸੁਆਮੀ  ॥੨॥ 
प्रभ ते जनु जानीजै जन ते सुआमी  ॥२॥ 
Parabẖ ṯe jan jānījai jan ṯe su▫āmī. ||2|| 
The servant is known by  his God, and the Lord and Master is known by His servant. ||2|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਰੀਰੁ  ਆਰਾਧੈ  ਮੋ  ਕਉ  ਬੀਚਾਰੁ  ਦੇਹੂ  ॥ 
सरीरु आराधै मो कउ बीचारु देहू ॥ 
Sarīr ārāḏẖai mo ka▫o bīcẖār ḏehū. 
Grant me the wisdom to  worship and adore You with my body. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਰਵਿਦਾਸ  ਸਮ  ਦਲ  ਸਮਝਾਵੈ  ਕੋਊ  ॥੩॥ 
रविदास सम दल समझावै कोऊ ॥३॥ 
Raviḏās sam ḏal samjẖāvai ko▫ū. ||3|| 
O Ravi Daas, one who  understands that the Lord is equally in all, is very rare. ||3|| 
</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Embers (Apr 6, 2010)

Good posts and quotations, Namjap Ji.
I enjoyed reading them.

Could it be summarised that one should look not to the problems and ills of the world, nor the luxuries and wealth of a few, but rather to the Lord for a real answer? It sounds so.

Can we then find an answer in remembering His name and looking to the Guru within rather than the material world? If done earnestly then I feel it does. God is not only the creator but the answer.

But how does it work? Why is it so that when the mind becomes focused on Akal Purakh we are relieved of the burdens of the manmukhs. What actually "happens"?


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## Astroboy (Apr 7, 2010)

Ambers said:


> Good posts and quotations, Namjap Ji.
> I enjoyed reading them.
> 
> Could it be summarised that one should look not to the problems and ills of the world, nor the luxuries and wealth of a few, but rather to the Lord for a real answer? It sounds so.
> ...


Ambers Ji,

Here's a SHABAD (in the 18th line of Ang 26 of SGGS) with the answer that we seek:-

ਹਰਿ ਹਾਰੁ ਕੰਠਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਪਹਿਰਿਆ ਗੁਰ ਚਰਣੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ  ॥
हरि हारु कंठि जिनी पहिरिआ गुर  चरणी चितु लाइ ॥
Har hār kanṯẖ jinī pahiri▫ā gur cẖarṇī  cẖiṯ lā▫e.
Those who wear the  Necklace of the Lord around their necks, and focus their consciousness  on the Guru's Feet -

ਤਿਨਾ ਪਿਛੈ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਫਿਰੈ ਓਨਾ ਤਿਲੁ ਨ ਤਮਾਇ  ॥੪॥
तिना पिछै रिधि सिधि फिरै ओना  तिलु न तमाइ ॥४॥
Ŧinā picẖẖai riḏẖ siḏẖ firai onā ṯil na  ṯamā▫e. ||4||
wealth and supernatural  spiritual powers follow them, but they do not care for such things at  all. ||4||


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## Astroboy (Apr 7, 2010)

Quoted by Ambers





> But how does it work? Why is it so that when the mind becomes focused on  Akal Purakh we are relieved of the burdens of the manmukhs. What  actually "happens"?


Excerpts from : Temple of God
Those people who are under the influence of the mind and are doing outer practices say, "How can the man-body be the temple of  God? This is a sack of filth--who can say it is the house of God?" They are never convinced about it. The body is full of filth, urine, blood, etc. How can there be anything  inside? If you want to see the sun you must look outside." What is a manmukh? "He who does not understand the Holy Shabad can be termed a manmukh. The fear of the Guru is not in his heart." 
Such people say, "How can this body be a temple of God?" Eat, drink and be  merry is their motto. Dear people, this human form is a true temple, wherein God resides. Withdraw yourselves from outer things and realize Him. You can only do this while you have a human life. "Now you have got this  man-body, it is the time to meet God. All the outward actions will not help you. In the Jap Ji Sahib, which is read daily by the Sikhs, it is written, "There is a priceless jewel within you; you will realize it if you obey the Guru's teachings."

If you knew there was some treasure hidden somewhere, wouldn't you like to dig it out?
Even if the Shabads in the SGGS point towards the Kingdom within, a Sikh doesn't take the trouble to dig out the true treasure because he doesn't even know how to begin. Nobody taught him. He's occupied with his outer rituals of reciting the 5 Banis while his mind flies around in all directions. Ever asked a Sikh if he bought a newspaper and read it without understanding it? 

Why don't they dig out the Truth? Even if one meets  someone who can help to bring out this Truth, and some understanding is given, even then one does not care to do the digging. How unfortunate is he! What can we call such an unfortunate person? If he were not conscious of the thing, it  would be a different matter, but if someone has shown a little of that  treasure inside, and even then one ignores it, then what is to be done? The usual excuse given is, "I have no time," is it not? Do you want someone else to dig out the treasure for you?

Soul is a part of God, just as it is a part of the Shabad. When the soul  becomes one with God, it becomes full of bliss. "If ye long for eternal  happiness, surrender thyself to God." Stay in your religions. This wealth of Naam is already in you. God is residing in this physical form, which can rightly be  called the Temple of God. Keep this temple carefully, with purity and  cleanliness. That form is beautiful in which God has manifested Himself. If you cover a heap of garbage with silk, will any fragrance of perfume come out of it. Clean up the mind through self-introspection and daily meditation. The more frequently one enjoys the Divine contact with the holy Naam,  the more beautiful will one become inside. As the inner beauty develops, the fragrant radiance from within will shine forth, making a temple truly  fit for God to dwell in.

In Ang 109 Guru Amardas Ji writes,
<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਇਸੁ  ਕਾਇਆ  ਅੰਦਰਿ  ਵਸਤੁ  ਅਸੰਖਾ  ॥ 
इसु काइआ अंदरि वसतु असंखा ॥ 
Is kā▫i▫ā anḏar vasaṯ asankẖā. 
Within this body are  countless objects. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਸਾਚੁ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਤਾ  ਵੇਖਾ  ॥ 
गुरमुखि साचु मिलै ता वेखा ॥ 
Gurmukẖ sācẖ milai ṯā vekẖā. 
The Gurmukh attains Truth,  and comes to see them. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਉ  ਦਰਵਾਜੇ  ਦਸਵੈ  ਮੁਕਤਾ  ਅਨਹਦ  ਸਬਦੁ  ਵਜਾਵਣਿਆ  ॥੩॥ 
नउ दरवाजे दसवै मुकता अनहद सबदु  वजावणिआ ॥३॥ 
Na▫o ḏarvāje ḏasvai mukṯā anhaḏ sabaḏ  vajāvaṇi▫ā. ||3|| 
Beyond the nine gates, the  Tenth Gate is found, and liberation is obtained. The Unstruck Melody of  the Shabad vibrates. ||3|| 
</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Embers (Apr 7, 2010)

*Namjap* Ji
Thank you for the beautiful replies. The quotations you picked out vibrate a profound answer to my questions.

It appears that the Gurus teach us that it is remembrance of the naam which liberates us from the maya and the problems of the world. And that once the Lord bestows His grace it is remembrance once again that one "wears" and continues. For example:

_So simran kar nahī rākẖ uṯār.
Practice that meditative remembrance, and never let it go.
Devotee Kabir _  -  view Shabad

Here it would be incorrect to ask what more "to do" when we know that all is Hukam, His will:

_Jo parabẖ bẖāvai so thī▫ai avar na karṇā jā▫e.
Whatever pleases God's Will comes to pass. Nothing else can be done._
view Shabad

So all doing, including the remembrance, the mediation and the even the kirtan is a part of His will. Because...

_Sabẖ kicẖẖ vasgaṯ sāhibai āpe karaṇ karev.
Everything is in the Hands of our Lord and Master; He Himself is the Doer of deeds._
view Shabad

None the less love and devotion continues to flow and in remembrance comes bliss, does it not? We find ourselves far from the ills of the world whilst never apart from It. I cannot explain the devotion that follows, there can not still be a "need" so why does one do it? Is there any clarity in the SGGS which you have happened upon or can share?


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## Astroboy (Apr 7, 2010)

Some religions have their heavens established in the astral regions and some in the Mind world. Hinduism believe that their ultimate heaven is Brahmand or the Mind world. But Sikhism takes us further into the plane of Sach Khand. And here the Mantar is Satnam and the Lord is known as Parbrahm Pooran Parmeshwar.

What is the difference between Brahm Lok and Parbrahm Lok? The former comes under the forces of destruction after a time span called a Manvantar. But Parbrahm is eternal and nonperishable. It is the true home of the Soul, our real self. We are by nature indestructible and eternal like our father, Lord God. 

In Hinduism, listening the Anhad Naad is the ultimate bliss. But in Sikhism, it is only a mid point. The proof is in SGGS Ang 773 Suhi M.4 where the 4 LavaN state the stages of spiritual progression one makes towards Godhead. Anhad Shabad comes in 2nd Laav, but there are 2 more Laavs to reach after Anhad Shabad.

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਸੂਹੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੪  ॥ 
सूही महला ४ ॥ 
Sūhī mėhlā 4. 
Soohee, Fourth Mehl: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਰਿ  ਪਹਿਲੜੀ  ਲਾਵ  ਪਰਵਿਰਤੀ  ਕਰਮ  ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ  ਬਲਿ  ਰਾਮ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
हरि पहिलड़ी लाव परविरती करम  द्रिड़ाइआ बलि राम जीउ ॥ 
Har pahilaṛī lāv parvirṯī karam driṛ▫ā▫i▫ā  bal rām jī▫o. 
In the first round of the  marriage ceremony, the Lord sets out His Instructions for performing the  daily duties of married life. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਬਾਣੀ  ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ  ਵੇਦੁ  ਧਰਮੁ  ਦ੍ਰਿੜਹੁ  ਪਾਪ  ਤਜਾਇਆ  ਬਲਿ  ਰਾਮ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
बाणी ब्रहमा वेदु धरमु द्रिड़हु  पाप तजाइआ बलि राम जीउ ॥ 
Baṇī barahmā veḏ ḏẖaram ḏariṛĥu pāp  ṯajā▫i▫ā bal rām jī▫o. 
Instead of the hymns of  the Vedas to Brahma, embrace the righteous conduct of Dharma, and  renounce sinful actions. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਧਰਮੁ  ਦ੍ਰਿੜਹੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਧਿਆਵਹੁ  ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ  ॥ 
धरमु द्रिड़हु हरि नामु धिआवहु  सिम्रिति नामु द्रिड़ाइआ ॥ 
Ḏẖaram ḏariṛĥu har nām ḏẖi▫āvahu simriṯ  nām driṛ▫ā▫i▫ā. 
Meditate on the Lord's  Name; embrace and enshrine the contemplative remembrance of the Naam. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਪੂਰਾ  ਆਰਾਧਹੁ  ਸਭਿ  ਕਿਲਵਿਖ  ਪਾਪ  ਗਵਾਇਆ  ॥ 
सतिगुरु गुरु पूरा आराधहु सभि  किलविख पाप गवाइआ ॥ 
Saṯgur gur pūrā ārāḏẖahu sabẖ kilvikẖ pāp  gavā▫i▫ā. 
Worship and adore the  Guru, the Perfect True Guru, and all your sins shall be dispelled. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਹਜ  ਅਨੰਦੁ  ਹੋਆ  ਵਡਭਾਗੀ  ਮਨਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਮੀਠਾ  ਲਾਇਆ  ॥ 
सहज अनंदु होआ वडभागी मनि हरि हरि  मीठा लाइआ ॥ 
Sahj anand ho▫ā vadbẖāgī man har har mīṯẖā  lā▫i▫ā. 
By great good fortune,  celestial bliss is attained, and the Lord, Har, Har, seems sweet to the  mind. 

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਜਨੁ  ਕਹੈ  ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਲਾਵ  ਪਹਿਲੀ  ਆਰੰਭੁ  ਕਾਜੁ  ਰਚਾਇਆ  ॥੧॥ 
जनु कहै नानकु लाव पहिली आर्मभु  काजु रचाइआ ॥१॥ 
Jan kahai Nānak lāv pahilī ārambẖ kāj  racẖā▫i▫ā. ||1|| 
Servant Nanak proclaims  that, in this, the first round of the marriage ceremony, the marriage  ceremony has begun. ||1|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਰਿ  ਦੂਜੜੀ  ਲਾਵ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਪੁਰਖੁ  ਮਿਲਾਇਆ  ਬਲਿ  ਰਾਮ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
हरि दूजड़ी लाव सतिगुरु पुरखु  मिलाइआ बलि राम जीउ ॥ 
Har ḏūjṛī lāv saṯgur purakẖ milā▫i▫ā bal  rām jī▫o. 
In the second round of the  marriage ceremony, the Lord leads you to meet the True Guru, the Primal  Being. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਿਰਭਉ   ਭੈ  ਮਨੁ  ਹੋਇ  ਹਉਮੈ  ਮੈਲੁ  ਗਵਾਇਆ  ਬਲਿ  ਰਾਮ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
निरभउ भै मनु होइ हउमै मैलु गवाइआ  बलि राम जीउ ॥ 
Nirbẖa▫o bẖai man ho▫e ha▫umai mail  gavā▫i▫ā bal rām jī▫o. 
With the Fear of God, the  Fearless Lord in the mind, the filth of egotism is eradicated. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਿਰਮਲੁ  ਭਉ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਹਰਿ  ਗੁਣ  ਗਾਇਆ  ਹਰਿ  ਵੇਖੈ  ਰਾਮੁ  ਹਦੂਰੇ  ॥ 
निरमलु भउ पाइआ हरि गुण गाइआ हरि  वेखै रामु हदूरे ॥ 
Nirmal bẖa▫o pā▫i▫ā har guṇ gā▫i▫ā har  vekẖai rām haḏūre. 
In the Fear of God, the  Immaculate Lord, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and behold the  Lord's Presence before you. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਰਿ  ਆਤਮ  ਰਾਮੁ  ਪਸਾਰਿਆ  ਸੁਆਮੀ  ਸਰਬ  ਰਹਿਆ  ਭਰਪੂਰੇ  ॥ 
हरि आतम रामु पसारिआ सुआमी सरब  रहिआ भरपूरे ॥ 
Har āṯam rām pasāri▫ā su▫āmī sarab rahi▫ā  bẖarpūre. 
The Lord, the Supreme  Soul, is the Lord and Master of the Universe; He is pervading and  permeating everywhere, fully filling all spaces. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਅੰਤਰਿ  ਬਾਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਏਕੋ  ਮਿਲਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਜਨ  ਮੰਗਲ  ਗਾਏ  ॥ 
अंतरि बाहरि हरि प्रभु एको मिलि  हरि जन मंगल गाए ॥ 
Anṯar bāhar har parabẖ eko mil har jan  mangal gā▫e. 
Deep within, and outside  as well, there is only the One Lord God. Meeting together, the humble  servants of the Lord sing the songs of joy. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਨ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਦੂਜੀ  ਲਾਵ  ਚਲਾਈ  ਅਨਹਦ  ਸਬਦ  ਵਜਾਏ   ॥੨॥ 
जन नानक दूजी लाव चलाई अनहद सबद  वजाए ॥२॥ 
Jan Nānak ḏūjī lāv cẖalā▫ī anhaḏ sabaḏ  vajā▫e. ||2|| 
Servant Nanak proclaims  that, in this, the second round of the marriage ceremony, the unstruck  sound current of the Shabad resounds. ||2|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਰਿ  ਤੀਜੜੀ  ਲਾਵ  ਮਨਿ  ਚਾਉ  ਭਇਆ  ਬੈਰਾਗੀਆ  ਬਲਿ  ਰਾਮ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
हरि तीजड़ी लाव मनि चाउ भइआ  बैरागीआ बलि राम जीउ ॥ 
Har ṯījṛī lāv man cẖā▫o bẖa▫i▫ā bairāgī▫ā  bal rām jī▫o. 
In the third round of the  marriage ceremony, the mind is filled with Divine Love. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸੰਤ  ਜਨਾ  ਹਰਿ  ਮੇਲੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਵਡਭਾਗੀਆ  ਬਲਿ  ਰਾਮ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
संत जना हरि मेलु हरि पाइआ  वडभागीआ बलि राम जीउ ॥ 
Sanṯ janā har mel har pā▫i▫ā vadbẖāgī▫ā  bal rām jī▫o. 
Meeting with the humble  Saints of the Lord, I have found the Lord, by great good fortune. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਿਰਮਲੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਹਰਿ  ਗੁਣ  ਗਾਇਆ  ਮੁਖਿ  ਬੋਲੀ  ਹਰਿ  ਬਾਣੀ  ॥ 
निरमलु हरि पाइआ हरि गुण गाइआ  मुखि बोली हरि बाणी ॥ 
Nirmal har pā▫i▫ā har guṇ gā▫i▫ā mukẖ bolī  har baṇī. 
I have found the  Immaculate Lord, and I sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. I speak  the Word of the Lord's Bani. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸੰਤ  ਜਨਾ  ਵਡਭਾਗੀ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਹਰਿ  ਕਥੀਐ  ਅਕਥ  ਕਹਾਣੀ  ॥ 
संत जना वडभागी पाइआ हरि कथीऐ अकथ  कहाणी ॥ 
Sanṯ janā vadbẖāgī pā▫i▫ā har kathī▫ai  akath kahāṇī. 
By great good fortune, I  have found the humble Saints, and I speak the Unspoken Speech of the  Lord. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਿਰਦੈ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਧੁਨਿ  ਉਪਜੀ  ਹਰਿ  ਜਪੀਐ  ਮਸਤਕਿ  ਭਾਗੁ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
हिरदै हरि हरि हरि धुनि उपजी हरि  जपीऐ मसतकि भागु जीउ ॥ 
Hirḏai har har har ḏẖun upjī har japī▫ai  masṯak bẖāg jī▫o. 
The Name of the Lord, Har,  Har, Har, vibrates and resounds within my heart; meditating on the  Lord, I have realized the destiny inscribed upon my forehead. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਨੁ  ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਬੋਲੇ  ਤੀਜੀ  ਲਾਵੈ  ਹਰਿ  ਉਪਜੈ  ਮਨਿ  ਬੈਰਾਗੁ  ਜੀਉ  ॥੩॥ 
जनु नानकु बोले तीजी लावै हरि  उपजै मनि बैरागु जीउ ॥३॥ 
Jan Nānak bole ṯījī lāvai har upjai man  bairāg jī▫o. ||3|| 
Servant Nanak proclaims  that, in this, the third round of the marriage ceremony, the mind is  filled with Divine Love for the Lord. ||3|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਰਿ  ਚਉਥੜੀ  ਲਾਵ  ਮਨਿ  ਸਹਜੁ  ਭਇਆ  ਹਰਿ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਬਲਿ  ਰਾਮ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
हरि चउथड़ी लाव मनि सहजु भइआ हरि  पाइआ बलि राम जीउ ॥ 
Har cẖa▫uthaṛī lāv man sahj bẖa▫i▫ā har  pā▫i▫ā bal rām jī▫o. 
In the fourth round of the  marriage ceremony, my mind has become peaceful; I have found the Lord. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਮਿਲਿਆ  ਸੁਭਾਇ  ਹਰਿ  ਮਨਿ  ਤਨਿ  ਮੀਠਾ  ਲਾਇਆ  ਬਲਿ  ਰਾਮ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
गुरमुखि मिलिआ सुभाइ हरि मनि तनि  मीठा लाइआ बलि राम जीउ ॥ 
Gurmukẖ mili▫ā subẖā▫e har man ṯan mīṯẖā  lā▫i▫ā bal rām jī▫o. 
As Gurmukh, I have met  Him, with intuitive ease; the Lord seems so sweet to my mind and body. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਰਿ  ਮੀਠਾ  ਲਾਇਆ  ਮੇਰੇ  ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਭਾਇਆ  ਅਨਦਿਨੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਲਿਵ  ਲਾਈ  ॥ 
हरि मीठा लाइआ मेरे प्रभ भाइआ  अनदिनु हरि लिव लाई ॥ 
Har mīṯẖā lā▫i▫ā mere parabẖ bẖā▫i▫ā  an▫ḏin har liv lā▫ī. 
The Lord seems so sweet; I  am pleasing to my God. Night and day, I lovingly focus my consciousness  on the Lord. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਮਨ  ਚਿੰਦਿਆ  ਫਲੁ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਸੁਆਮੀ  ਹਰਿ  ਨਾਮਿ  ਵਜੀ  ਵਾਧਾਈ  ॥ 
मन चिंदिआ फलु पाइआ सुआमी हरि  नामि वजी वाधाई ॥ 
Man cẖinḏi▫ā fal pā▫i▫ā su▫āmī har nām  vajī vāḏẖā▫ī. 
I have obtained my Lord  and Master, the fruit of my mind's desires. The Lord's Name resounds and  resonates. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਰਿ  ਪ੍ਰਭਿ  ਠਾਕੁਰਿ  ਕਾਜੁ  ਰਚਾਇਆ  ਧਨ  ਹਿਰਦੈ  ਨਾਮਿ  ਵਿਗਾਸੀ  ॥ 
हरि प्रभि ठाकुरि काजु रचाइआ धन  हिरदै नामि विगासी ॥ 
Har parabẖ ṯẖākur kāj racẖā▫i▫ā ḏẖan  hirḏai nām vigāsī. 
The Lord God, my Lord and  Master, blends with His bride, and her heart blossoms forth in the Naam. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਨੁ  ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਬੋਲੇ  ਚਉਥੀ  ਲਾਵੈ  ਹਰਿ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਅਵਿਨਾਸੀ  ॥੪॥੨॥ 
जनु नानकु बोले चउथी लावै हरि  पाइआ प्रभु अविनासी ॥४॥२॥ 
Jan Nānak bole cẖa▫uthī lāvai har pā▫i▫ā  parabẖ avināsī. ||4||2|| 
Servant Nanak proclaims  that, in this, the fourth round of the marriage ceremony, we have found  the Eternal Lord God. ||4||2|| 
</td></tr></tbody></table>
</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Embers (Apr 8, 2010)

Thanks once more *Namjap* ji.
This is both reassuring and enlightening. Commentary by Sri Sankaracharya would lead one to understand that there comes a time when all desires and questions cease. It is often said that once the state of self-realisation is reached, there is no going back and nothing else to do. Often this is misunderstood, in my opinion, to mean that devotion also ceases. The Sikh Gurus, as you kindly point out, instead make it quite clear that devotion, mediation and recitation of His name does indeed continue even after one merges with the timeless Lord God. It is no longer a method but a part of one’s being, is it not?

As I am beginning to understand, Nanak Ji, reflects on the passing stages of the marriage of the bride and the Lord and this ends, as has been said above, in peace and the blossoming of the heart in the naam. This is beautiful, as the ceremony is single and non-dual, but yet there are various aspects or stages within the unison of bride and Groom. This leads to an interesting assumption which is that devotion, in the sense of naam, continues despite the “blending” or unity of creation (man) with creator (the One Lord God). This is because it is the Lord’s will that one will reflect on His magnificence and remember Him, is it not? What is startling is that not only is devotion the path, but it is also the state once arriving at the supreme goal. What changes is more profound and liberating and this is what Nanak Ji, through the Sri Granth Guru Sahib teaches us all, despite our stage in His wedding ceremony.

Respectfully, Ambers.


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## jasbirkaleka (Apr 8, 2010)

Namjap ji and Ambers ji ,
With all due respect, all your answers are escapist and play of words.


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## Embers (Apr 8, 2010)

jasbirkaleka said:


> Namjap ji and Ambers ji ,
> With all due respect, all your answers are escapist and play of words.



Hi Jasbirkaleka Ji
I am pleased to know your feedback. How do you feel we should be better guided, please elaborate?

I should add the the topic which captures my interest most from our conversation above is the message of the Gurus based on their "union" with God, as this is what I understand to be real liberation in respect to the Guru's teachings.

Respectfully, Ambers.


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## Astroboy (Apr 8, 2010)

> Commentary by Sri Sankaracharya would lead one to understand that there  comes a time when all desires and questions cease. It is often said that  once the state of self-realisation is reached, there is no going back  and nothing else to do. Often this is misunderstood, in my opinion, to  mean that devotion also ceases. The Sikh Gurus, as you kindly point out,  instead make it quite clear that devotion, mediation and recitation of  His name does indeed continue even after one merges with the timeless  Lord God. It is no longer a method but a part of one’s being, is it not?



Truth is not gained through observation. It is gained through experience. Our Gurus experienced Saram Khand, Karam Khand and Sach Khand and made an attempt to express it in words. The path of Sikhism offers each and every Sikh to experience this levels of consciousness by him/herself. The guidance is being given in Japji Sahib.

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਸਰਮ  ਖੰਡ  ਕੀ  ਬਾਣੀ  ਰੂਪੁ  ॥ 
सरम खंड की बाणी रूपु ॥ 
Saram kẖand kī baṇī rūp. 
In the realm of humility,  the Word is Beauty. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਥੈ  ਘਾੜਤਿ  ਘੜੀਐ  ਬਹੁਤੁ  ਅਨੂਪੁ   ॥ 
तिथै घाड़ति घड़ीऐ बहुतु अनूपु ॥ 
Ŧithai gẖāṛaṯ gẖaṛī▫ai bahuṯ anūp. 
Forms of incomparable  beauty are fashioned there. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਾ  ਕੀਆ  ਗਲਾ  ਕਥੀਆ  ਨਾ  ਜਾਹਿ  ॥ 
ता कीआ गला कथीआ ना जाहि ॥ 
Ŧā kī▫ā galā kathī▫ā nā jāhi. 
These things cannot be  described. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜੇ  ਕੋ  ਕਹੈ  ਪਿਛੈ  ਪਛੁਤਾਇ  ॥ 
जे को कहै पिछै पछुताइ ॥ 
Je ko kahai picẖẖai pacẖẖuṯā▫e. 
One who tries to speak of  these shall regret the attempt. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਥੈ  ਘੜੀਐ  ਸੁਰਤਿ  ਮਤਿ   ਮਨਿ  ਬੁਧਿ  ॥ 
तिथै घड़ीऐ सुरति मति मनि बुधि ॥ 
Ŧithai gẖaṛī▫ai suraṯ maṯ man buḏẖ. 
The intuitive  consciousness, intellect and understanding of the mind are shaped there. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਥੈ  ਘੜੀਐ  ਸੁਰਾ  ਸਿਧਾ  ਕੀ  ਸੁਧਿ  ॥੩੬॥ 
तिथै घड़ीऐ सुरा सिधा की सुधि ॥३६॥ 
Ŧithai gẖaṛī▫ai surā siḏẖā kī suḏẖ. ||36|| 
The consciousness of the  spiritual warriors and the Siddhas, the beings of spiritual perfection,  are shaped there. ||36|| 
</td></tr></tbody></table>
Please note that from the logical viewpoint, it can be said that Bani means the creative force also known as the subtle vibration power which fashions the the delicate mind and its four main functions.


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## Astroboy (Apr 8, 2010)

Bhagat Namdev expresses his own version of Saram Khand in the following shabad in Ang 656,

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਰਾਗੁ  ਸੋਰਠਿ  ਬਾਣੀ  ਭਗਤ  ਨਾਮਦੇ  ਜੀ  ਕੀ  ਘਰੁ  ੨ 
रागु सोरठि बाणी भगत नामदे जी की  घरु २ 
Rāg soraṯẖ baṇī bẖagaṯ nāmḏe jī kī gẖar 2 
Raag Sorat'h, The Word Of  Devotee Naam Dayv Jee, Second House: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ੴ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥ 
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥ 
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ. 
One Universal Creator God.  By The Grace Of The True Guru: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਬ  ਦੇਖਾ  ਤਬ  ਗਾਵਾ  ॥ 
जब देखा तब गावा ॥ 
Jab ḏekẖā ṯab gāvā. 
When I see Him, I sing His  Praises. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਉ  ਜਨ  ਧੀਰਜੁ  ਪਾਵਾ  ॥੧॥ 
तउ जन धीरजु पावा ॥१॥ 
Ŧa▫o jan ḏẖīraj pāvā. ||1|| 
Then I, his humble  servant, become patient. ||1|| 
</td></tr></tbody></table>
<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਨਾਦਿ  ਸਮਾਇਲੋ  ਰੇ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਭੇਟਿਲੇ  ਦੇਵਾ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
नादि समाइलो रे सतिगुरु भेटिले  देवा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Nāḏ samā▫ilo re saṯgur bẖetile ḏevā. ||1||  rahā▫o. 
Meeting the Divine True  Guru, I merge into the sound current of the Naad. ||1||Pause|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਹ  ਝਿਲਿ  ਮਿਲਿ  ਕਾਰੁ  ਦਿਸੰਤਾ  ॥ 
जह झिलि मिलि कारु दिसंता ॥ 
Jah jẖil mil kār ḏisanṯā. 
Where the dazzling white  light is seen, 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਹ  ਅਨਹਦ  ਸਬਦ  ਬਜੰਤਾ  ॥ 
तह अनहद सबद बजंता ॥ 
Ŧah anhaḏ sabaḏ bajanṯā. 
there the unstruck sound  current of the Shabad resounds. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜੋਤੀ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਸਮਾਨੀ  ॥ 
जोती जोति समानी ॥ 
Joṯī joṯ samānī. 
One's light merges in the  Light; 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਮੈ  ਗੁਰ  ਪਰਸਾਦੀ  ਜਾਨੀ  ॥੨॥ 
मै गुर परसादी जानी ॥२॥ 
Mai gur parsādī jānī. ||2|| 
by Guru's Grace, I know  this. ||2|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਰਤਨ  ਕਮਲ  ਕੋਠਰੀ  ॥ 
रतन कमल कोठरी ॥ 
Raṯan kamal koṯẖrī. 
The jewels are in the  treasure chamber of the heart-lotus. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਚਮਕਾਰ  ਬੀਜੁਲ  ਤਹੀ  ॥ 
चमकार बीजुल तही ॥ 
Cẖamkār bījul ṯahī. 
They sparkle and glitter  like lightning. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨੇਰੈ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਦੂਰਿ  ॥ 
नेरै नाही दूरि ॥ 
Nerai nāhī ḏūr. 
The Lord is near at hand,  not far away. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਿਜ  ਆਤਮੈ  ਰਹਿਆ  ਭਰਪੂਰਿ  ॥੩॥ 
निज आतमै रहिआ भरपूरि ॥३॥ 
Nij āṯmai rahi▫ā bẖarpūr. ||3|| 
He is totally permeating  and pervading in my soul. ||3|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਹ  ਅਨਹਤ  ਸੂਰ  ਉਜ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਰਾ  ॥ 
जह अनहत सूर उज्यारा ॥ 
Jah anhaṯ sūr uj▫yārā. 
Where the light of the  undying sun shines, 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਹ  ਦੀਪਕ  ਜਲੈ  ਛੰਛਾਰਾ  ॥ 
तह दीपक जलै छंछारा ॥ 
Ŧah ḏīpak jalai cẖẖancẖẖārā. 
the light of burning lamps  seems insignificant. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰ  ਪਰਸਾਦੀ  ਜਾਨਿਆ  ॥ 
गुर परसादी जानिआ ॥ 
Gur parsādī jāni▫ā. 
By Guru's Grace, I know  this. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਨੁ  ਨਾਮਾ  ਸਹਜ  ਸਮਾਨਿਆ  ॥੪॥੧॥ 
जनु नामा सहज समानिआ ॥४॥१॥ 
Jan nāmā sahj samāni▫ā. ||4||1|| 
Servant Naam Dayv is  absorbed in the Celestial Lord. ||4||1|| 

Bhagat Namdev clearly expresses God experience with the type of Light and Sound he experiences. 

We too can experience this and share our experience but it is up to each of us to open up that awareness within ourselves.We can feel the love that passes on from one world to the next into the higher planes of reality. But the awakening has to start within our hearts.
 </td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Astroboy (Apr 8, 2010)

In the next Pauri of Japji Sahib the  shabad is,

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਕਰਮ  ਖੰਡ  ਕੀ  ਬਾਣੀ  ਜੋਰੁ  ॥ 
करम खंड की बाणी जोरु ॥ 
Karam kẖand kī baṇī jor. 
In the realm of karma, the  Word is Power. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਥੈ  ਹੋਰੁ  ਨ  ਕੋਈ  ਹੋਰੁ  ॥ 
तिथै होरु न कोई होरु ॥ 
Ŧithai hor na ko▫ī hor. 
No one else dwells there, 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਥੈ  ਜੋਧ  ਮਹਾਬਲ  ਸੂਰ  ॥ 
तिथै जोध महाबल सूर ॥ 
Ŧithai joḏẖ mahābal sūr. 
except the warriors of  great power, the spiritual heroes. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਨ  ਮਹਿ  ਰਾਮੁ  ਰਹਿਆ  ਭਰਪੂਰ  ॥ 
तिन महि रामु रहिआ भरपूर ॥ 
Ŧin mėh rām rahi▫ā bẖarpūr. 
They are totally  fulfilled, imbued with the Lord's Essence. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਥੈ  ਸੀਤੋ  ਸੀਤਾ  ਮਹਿਮਾ  ਮਾਹਿ  ॥ 
तिथै सीतो सीता महिमा माहि ॥ 
Ŧithai sīṯo sīṯā mahimā māhi. 
Myriads of Sitas are  there, cool and calm in their majestic glory. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਾ  ਕੇ  ਰੂਪ  ਨ  ਕਥਨੇ  ਜਾਹਿ  ॥ 
ता के रूप न कथने जाहि ॥ 
Ŧā ke rūp na kathne jāhi. 
Their beauty cannot be  described. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਾ  ਓਹਿ  ਮਰਹਿ  ਨ  ਠਾਗੇ  ਜਾਹਿ  ॥ 
ना ओहि मरहि न ठागे जाहि ॥ 
Nā ohi marėh na ṯẖāge jāhi. 
Neither death nor  deception comes to those, 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਿਨ  ਕੈ  ਰਾਮੁ  ਵਸੈ  ਮਨ  ਮਾਹਿ  ॥ 
जिन कै रामु वसै मन माहि ॥ 
Jin kai rām vasai man māhi. 
within whose minds the  Lord abides. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਥੈ  ਭਗਤ  ਵਸਹਿ  ਕੇ  ਲੋਅ  ॥ 
तिथै भगत वसहि के लोअ ॥ 
Ŧithai bẖagaṯ vasėh ke lo▫a. 
The devotees of many  worlds dwell there. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਰਹਿ  ਅਨੰਦੁ  ਸਚਾ  ਮਨਿ  ਸੋਇ  ॥ 
करहि अनंदु सचा मनि सोइ ॥ 
Karahi anand sacẖā man so▫e. 
They celebrate; their  minds are imbued with the True Lord. 

You may study many books or attend classes or lectures but your real learning comes from inside you.You may begin to understand who you really are : that you're here for a spiritual purpose.You can let go of your fear of death, worry less and invite more love in your life, and with it undesirable habits begin to fall away.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 9, 2010)

gsingh2011 said:


> I have two questions that I was asked a while back and I have been wondering the answers ever since.
> 
> First of all, (this was asked by an atheist) if God exists, why do so many "bad" things happen in the world? It got me thinking, why does vaheguru not make everyone good and take out all of the evil in the world?
> 
> ...


Those are difficult questions. They depend on which God you are taking about. I assume you are talking about the Sikh God.

The answer to the first one is usually given as follows:
Its all God's play. 
It is His hukam. 
If he didn't create evil, how would there be good?
He sets up the world and lets it unfold. Then he sits back and watches the play.

The answer to the second one is usually given as follows:
He does everything but at the same time we are responsible for what we do. It seems contradictory but its true.
We don't get punished for our sins. We just become grasshoppers, plants, mountains etc until we come back to the human form and now we get another chance to merge with him.

Ya... that doesn't answer the question, and the previous quotations don't help either but some of the most knowledgeable Sikhs I know have given those answers to me, and that's all I can share from the Sikh perspective. 



From an Atheist perspective, God is irrelevant and so the questions do not hold any significance.
But you may ask why is there suffering in the world?
that's just as difficult as the previous questions.

What is suffering? Notice how the answer explains why there is suffering to some extent but more like what causes it.
1. There's a law of our universe (Second law of thermodynanmics), which states that all systems tend to become more disordered over time if no energy is added to it. 
2. a) Life is a highly ordered system. It requires a lot of energy to maintain that order. 
b) Life also takes up space.
3. a) Energy comes from resources that are limited. 
b) Space is also limited
4. So suffering is the competition for those resources and space.
That's one aspect.

Also, if you take suffering to mean disease. Then the idea is the same. In this case, the disease causing agent is looking for energy to maintain itself and we are simply the source of energy. Like plants and animals are sources of energy for us. 

Interesting to note: Plants and animals may think (if they could) that us humans are the cause of their suffering...

I have also found out that the "Why" questions don't actually apply to things in the nature. Nature doesn't have a purpose. So what purpose does suffering serve, really nothing. I think its a rather meaningless question. 
We have come to this world with laws already in place. Incidently, we have also the only ones on this planet able to understand those laws. I am just happy that I can do that.


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## ballym (Apr 9, 2010)

Blissful feeling comes when we follow marriage with god model of devotion. I have a large number of people in Canada who have this kind of feeling. 
many people have this kind of faith in their Saakar or Niraakaar Guru. the main point is whether that person is getting bliss or not. 
Kaleka Ji, it is common to have the feeling you have. I was also of similar opinion but we may not be right? Just surrendering yourself... real surrender... but still living in this world
It is more important to feel the love to God... a total bond and ultimate faith.
This attitude towards god was depicted in the form of krishna.

If we say that krishna is Hindu god, then we are not agreeing with Guru Nanak.... God is one.... with different manifestations. However there are fake Gods too. 
Our general objection towards saakar Gurus is because of these false ones. Moreover, many a times first or one person in a faith is a real saint. His/her followers are just propagating the idea or panth.
More later.


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## Astroboy (Apr 9, 2010)

The Shabad that follows, concludes Soul's journey to Godhead by crossing over from the realms of duality to eternal reality. 

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਚ  ਖੰਡਿ  ਵਸੈ  ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ  ॥ 
सच खंडि वसै निरंकारु ॥ 
Sacẖ kẖand vasai nirankār. 
In the realm of Truth, the  Formless Lord abides. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਰਿ  ਕਰਿ  ਵੇਖੈ  ਨਦਰਿ  ਨਿਹਾਲ  ॥ 
करि करि वेखै नदरि निहाल ॥ 
Kar kar vekẖai naḏar nihāl. 
Having created the  creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows  happiness. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਥੈ  ਖੰਡ  ਮੰਡਲ  ਵਰਭੰਡ  ॥ 
तिथै खंड मंडल वरभंड ॥ 
Ŧithai kẖand mandal varbẖand. 
There are planets, solar  systems and galaxies. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜੇ  ਕੋ  ਕਥੈ  ਤ  ਅੰਤ  ਨ  ਅੰਤ  ॥ 
जे को कथै त अंत न अंत ॥ 
Je ko kathai ṯa anṯ na anṯ. 
If one speaks of them,  there is no limit, no end. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਥੈ  ਲੋਅ  ਲੋਅ  ਆਕਾਰ  ॥ 
तिथै लोअ लोअ आकार ॥ 
Ŧithai lo▫a lo▫a ākār. 
There are worlds upon  worlds of His Creation. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਿਵ  ਜਿਵ  ਹੁਕਮੁ  ਤਿਵੈ  ਤਿਵ  ਕਾਰ  ॥ 
जिव जिव हुकमु तिवै तिव कार ॥ 
Jiv jiv hukam ṯivai ṯiv kār. 
As He commands, so they  exist. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਵੇਖੈ  ਵਿਗਸੈ  ਕਰਿ  ਵੀਚਾਰੁ  ॥ 
वेखै विगसै करि वीचारु ॥ 
vekẖai vigsai kar vīcẖār. 
He watches over all, and  contemplating the creation, He rejoices. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਾਨਕ  ਕਥਨਾ  ਕਰੜਾ  ਸਾਰੁ  ॥੩੭॥ 
नानक कथना करड़ा सारु ॥३७॥ 
Nānak kathnā karṛā sār. ||37|| 
O Nanak, to describe this  is as hard as steel! ||37|| 
</td></tr></tbody></table>
In another shabad it is stated that the Sound Current of Flutes is heard in Sach Khand, the Imperishable region. In Ang 344, Kabeer Ji explains,

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ੴ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥ 
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥ 
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ. 
One Universal Creator God.  By The Grace Of The True Guru: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਰਾਗੁ  ਗਉੜੀ  ਵਾਰ  ਕਬੀਰ  ਜੀਉ  ਕੇ  ੭  ॥ 
रागु गउड़ी वार कबीर जीउ के ७ ॥ 
Rāg ga▫oṛī vār Kabīr jī▫o ke 7. 
Raag Gauree, The Seven  Days Of The Week Of Kabeer Jee: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਬਾਰ  ਬਾਰ  ਹਰਿ  ਕੇ  ਗੁਨ  ਗਾਵਉ  ॥ 
बार बार हरि के गुन गावउ ॥ 
Bār bār har ke gun gāva▫o. 
Sing the Glorious Praises  of the Lord each and every day. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗੁਰ  ਗਮਿ  ਭੇਦੁ  ਸੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਕਾ  ਪਾਵਉ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
गुर गमि भेदु सु हरि का पावउ ॥१॥  रहाउ ॥ 
Gur gam bẖeḏ so har kā pāva▫o. ||1||  rahā▫o. 
Meeting with the Guru, you  shall come to know the mystery of the Lord. ||1||Pause|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਆਦਿਤ  ਕਰੈ  ਭਗਤਿ  ਆਰੰਭ  ॥ 
आदित करै भगति आर्मभ ॥ 
Āḏiṯ karai bẖagaṯ ārambẖ. 
On Sunday, begin the  devotional worship of the Lord, 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਾਇਆ  ਮੰਦਰ  ਮਨਸਾ   ਥੰਭ  ॥ 
काइआ मंदर मनसा थ्मभ ॥ 
Kā▫i▫ā manḏar mansā thambẖ. 
and restrain the desires  within the temple of the body. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ  ਅਖੰਡ  ਸੁਰਹੀ  ਜਾਇ  ॥ 
अहिनिसि अखंड सुरही जाइ ॥ 
Ahinis akẖand surhī jā▫e. 
When your attention is  focused day and night upon that imperishable place, 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਉ  ਅਨਹਦ  ਬੇਣੁ  ਸਹਜ  ਮਹਿ  ਬਾਇ  ॥੧॥ 
तउ अनहद बेणु सहज महि बाइ ॥१॥ 
Ŧa▫o anhaḏ beṇ sahj mėh bā▫e. ||1|| 
then the celestial flutes  play the unstruck melody in tranquil peace and poise. ||1|| 
</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Astroboy (Apr 9, 2010)

In Ang 345, Bhagat Ravidas states he has visited the City called Begampura and gives a good description of this plane of existence,

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਬੇਗਮ  ਪੁਰਾ  ਸਹਰ  ਕੋ  ਨਾਉ  ॥ 
बेगम पुरा सहर को नाउ ॥ 
Begam purā sahar ko nā▫o. 
Baygumpura, 'the city  without sorrow', is the name of the town. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਦੂਖੁ  ਅੰਦੋਹੁ  ਨਹੀ  ਤਿਹਿ  ਠਾਉ  ॥ 
दूखु अंदोहु नही तिहि ठाउ ॥ 
Ḏūkẖ anḏohu nahī ṯihi ṯẖā▫o. 
There is no suffering or  anxiety there. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਾਂ  ਤਸਵੀਸ  ਖਿਰਾਜੁ  ਨ  ਮਾਲੁ  ॥ 
नां तसवीस खिराजु न मालु ॥ 
Nāŉ ṯasvīs kẖirāj na māl. 
There are no troubles or  taxes on commodities there. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਖਉਫੁ  ਨ  ਖਤਾ  ਨ  ਤਰਸੁ  ਜਵਾਲੁ  ॥੧॥ 
खउफु न खता न तरसु जवालु ॥१॥ 
Kẖa▫uf na kẖaṯā na ṯaras javāl. ||1|| 
There is no fear, blemish  or downfall there. ||1|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਅਬ  ਮੋਹਿ  ਖੂਬ  ਵਤਨ  ਗਹ  ਪਾਈ  ॥ 
अब मोहि खूब वतन गह पाई ॥ 
Ab mohi kẖūb vaṯan gah pā▫ī. 
Now, I have found this  most excellent city. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਊਹਾਂ  ਖੈਰਿ  ਸਦਾ  ਮੇਰੇ  ਭਾਈ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
ऊहां खैरि सदा मेरे भाई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Ūhāŉ kẖair saḏā mere bẖā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
There is lasting peace and  safety there, O Siblings of Destiny. ||1||Pause|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਾਇਮੁ  ਦਾਇਮੁ  ਸਦਾ  ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ  ॥ 
काइमु दाइमु सदा पातिसाही ॥ 
Kā▫im ḏā▫im saḏā pāṯisāhī. 
God's Kingdom is steady,  stable and eternal. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਦੋਮ  ਨ  ਸੇਮ  ਏਕ  ਸੋ  ਆਹੀ  ॥ 
दोम न सेम एक सो आही ॥ 
Ḏom na sem ek so āhī. 
There is no second or  third status; all are equal there. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਆਬਾਦਾਨੁ  ਸਦਾ  ਮਸਹੂਰ  ॥ 
आबादानु सदा मसहूर ॥ 
Ābāḏān saḏā mashūr. 
That city is populous and  eternally famous. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਊਹਾਂ  ਗਨੀ  ਬਸਹਿ  ਮਾਮੂਰ  ॥੨॥ 
ऊहां गनी बसहि मामूर ॥२॥ 
Ūhāŉ ganī basėh māmūr. ||2|| 
Those who live there are  wealthy and contented. ||2|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਉ  ਤਿਉ  ਸੈਲ  ਕਰਹਿ  ਜਿਉ  ਭਾਵੈ  ॥ 
तिउ तिउ सैल करहि जिउ भावै ॥ 
Ŧi▫o ṯi▫o sail karahi ji▫o bẖāvai. 
They stroll about freely,  just as they please. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਮਹਰਮ  ਮਹਲ  ਨ  ਕੋ  ਅਟਕਾਵੈ  ॥ 
महरम महल न को अटकावै ॥ 
Mahram mahal na ko atkāvai. 
They know the Mansion of  the Lord's Presence, and no one blocks their way. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਹਿ  ਰਵਿਦਾਸ  ਖਲਾਸ  ਚਮਾਰਾ  ॥ 
कहि रविदास खलास चमारा ॥ 
Kahi Raviḏās kẖalās cẖamārā. 
Says Ravi Daas, the  emancipated shoe-maker: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜੋ  ਹਮ  ਸਹਰੀ  ਸੁ  ਮੀਤੁ  ਹਮਾਰਾ  ॥੩॥੨॥ 
जो हम सहरी सु मीतु हमारा ॥३॥२॥ 
Jo ham sahrī so mīṯ hamārā. ||3||2|| 
whoever is a citizen  there, is a friend of mine. ||3||2|| </td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Astroboy (Apr 9, 2010)

> As I am beginning to understand, Nanak Ji, reflects on the passing  stages of the marriage of the bride and the Lord and this ends, as has  been said above, in peace and the blossoming of the heart in the naam.  This is beautiful, as the ceremony is single and non-dual, but yet there  are various aspects or stages within the unison of bride and Groom.  This leads to an interesting assumption which is that devotion, in the  sense of naam, continues despite the “blending” or unity of creation  (man) with creator (the One Lord God). This is because it is the Lord’s  will that one will reflect on His magnificence and remember Him, is it  not?


Amber Ji,

I can remember two shabads that say that we need to be in the company of a true friend who will take us across to the other side. The shabads are:-

Ang 1102 Guru Arjan,

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਸਲੋਕ  ਡਖਣੇ  ਮਃ  ੫  ॥ 
सलोक डखणे मः ५ ॥ 
Salok dakẖ▫ṇe mėhlā 5. 
Shalok, Dakhanay, Fifth  Mehl: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਾਨਕ  ਕਚੜਿਆ  ਸਿਉ  ਤੋੜਿ  ਢੂਢਿ  ਸਜਣ  ਸੰਤ  ਪਕਿਆ  ॥ 
नानक कचड़िआ सिउ तोड़ि ढूढि सजण संत  पकिआ ॥ 
Nānak kacẖṛi▫ā si▫o ṯoṛ dẖūdẖ sajaṇ sanṯ ****ā. 
O Nanak, break away from  the false, and seek out the Saints, your true friends. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਓਇ  ਜੀਵੰਦੇ  ਵਿਛੁੜਹਿ  ਓਇ  ਮੁਇਆ  ਨ  ਜਾਹੀ  ਛੋੜਿ  ॥੧॥ 
ओइ जीवंदे विछुड़हि ओइ मुइआ न जाही  छोड़ि ॥१॥ 
O▫e jīvande vicẖẖuṛėh o▫e mu▫i▫ā na jāhī  cẖẖoṛ. ||1|| 
The false shall leave you,  even while you are still alive; but the Saints shall not forsake you,  even when you are dead. ||1|| 


*The other shabad is in Ang 729, Guru Nanak says,*

</td></tr></tbody></table>ਸਜਣ  ਸੇਈ  ਨਾਲਿ  ਮੈ  ਚਲਦਿਆ  ਨਾਲਿ  ਚਲੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ  ॥ 
सजण सेई नालि मै चलदिआ नालि  चलंन्हि ॥ 
Sajaṇ se▫ī nāl mai cẖalḏi▫ā nāl cẖalaŉniĥ. 
They alone are my friends,  who travel along with me; 

ਜਿਥੈ  ਲੇਖਾ  ਮੰਗੀਐ  ਤਿਥੈ  ਖੜੇ  ਦਿਸੰਨਿ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
जिथै लेखा मंगीऐ तिथै खड़े दिसंनि  ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Jithai lekẖā mangī▫ai ṯithai kẖaṛe ḏisann.  ||1|| rahā▫o. 
and in that place, where  the accounts are called for, they appear standing with me. ||1||Pause||


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## Astroboy (Apr 9, 2010)

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.


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## Astroboy (Apr 10, 2010)

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.


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