# Shabat Katha? Shabad Kirtan? What Is Going On In Gurdwaras Sahib?



## drkhalsa (Mar 18, 2006)

Taken *from **http://www.punjabnewsline.com*

Rababi kirtan can only be revived in India: Bhai Lal    

Manpreet Kaur Wednesday, 15 March 2006 
*Manpreet Kaur *






http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:9wkBI6QYbtM_4M:www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20041019/pun2.jpg


PATIALA: "At the time of partition no body was ready to allow a Muslim Rababi to stay in India, and in Pakistan there are no Sikhs, aware of the value of Rababi Kirtan, so this ancient tradition made by Guru Nanak and Mardana is moving towards threshold of its end. Only India can revive this ancient tradition." Said Bhai Lal, descendant of Mardana. Bhai lal leads to 17th generation of Mardana. 



He was born in Goindwal Sahib, District Amritsar and after Partition immigrated to Lahore. According to him a Rababi is who praises the God with Rabab. 
Talking about singing of Gurbani in present era he said that what is going on these days in Gurdwara Sahibs is 'Shabad Katha' and not 'Shabad Kirtan'. Nayeem Tahir, son of Bhai Lal further added that in the times of Gurus the kirtan was having such melody in it that the listeners could not think of any thing else at that time and there was pin drop silence among Sangat during Kirtan. The Gurbani was chanted in so melodious and clear words that there was no need to tell the meaning of lines to people. But these days that sanctity is absent in Gurbani Ras. 
Bhai Lal gives the reason of Lack of Melody in Kirtan of current times that these days Kirtankars are singing Gurbani just for earning money; no body bothers about loyalty towards God, but is worried about his commission only. As these days most of the Raagis are eager to go abroad. Bhai Lal also disclosed that he never takes money for Rababi kirtan. He has also performed this ancient tradition in Canada, England and Hong Kong and India.
Bhai Lal likes to perform at the place where people can appraise the importance of this Rababi Kirtan of Mardana and can understand the message of Guru Nanak hidden in the Gurbani, he sings. He also expressed his grief about that in Pakistan no body takes interest in listening to or learning about Rababi Kirtan, but it is being liked most in the western countries. He also lauded the effort in Golden Temple to apprise the old Traditions of singing of Gurbani. 
Bhai Lal Singh is teaching the original forms of Rababi Kirtan to the students of Gurmat Sangeet in Punjabi University. It is the first time that he is teaching this art to the next generation. His son Nayeem says that it takes many years to sing like Bhai Lal as even he is not expert in that till now.
The great thing to worry about is that after Bhai Lal, there will be nobody who has expertise in this ancient art. That’s why the Rababi Kirtan by Bhai Lal is been recorded and will be preserved in the Sant Sucha Singh Archive of Punjabi University for the coming generations.


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 11, 2009)

*Re: What's going on these days in Gurdwara Sahibs is 'Shabad Katha' and not Shabad Ki*

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....

Thanks for sharing...we need efforts to save our tradition...............

Chardi Kala......


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 11, 2009)

*Re: What's going on these days in Gurdwara Sahibs is 'Shabad Katha' and not Shabad Ki*

Katha is a double edged knife. Very few who delve into Gurbani and know it are very good at it. Most of the others concoct their own stories inbetween Gurbani lines to impress the audience.

So whose fault is this where these false Katha-vaachaks with Kachi Bani - as Guru Amar Das calls it-rake money in the Gurdwaras and mislead the Sangat?

It is no one's fault but the Sangat's. We as Sikhs have become good parrots by doing daily Nitnems, weekly/monthly Sukhmanis, yearly Sehaj Paaths but the sad part is that none of us spends the real time to understand Gurbani. By just cramming the manuals of how to fly a plane, not a pilot makes. Nor can one become a doctor by just memorising the medical books. And we can talk about all the fields of work in our lives. If we can not run our lives of Miri without any understanding hence become failures, how can we lead the life of Piri without understanding Gurbani, when Piri is the foundation on which Miri is built?

This laziness of ours and to some extent it is also disrespectful to SGGS by making it an Idol worship rather than something to understand and educate ourselves with so that we can make it a life changing tool box- the real metamorphosis-. It has also opened the flood gates for the false Katha-vaachaks and the Derawalas.

Only when we come to the realisation that if we study, understand and practice Gurbani in our own lives, then we can get rid of the false Katha- Vaachaks, so called Sants and the Derawalas.

This is one more reason I get bewildered by those who in this forum quote Kathavaachaks rather than our Gurus through Gurbani.

Blind faith in these Katha- Vaachaks is the same as having blind faith in the Derawalas.

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Jun 11, 2009)

*Re: What's going on these days in Gurdwara Sahibs is 'Shabad Katha' and not Shabad Ki*

I am going to have to edit the title of this thread. It is too long, and I cannot understand what it means. Please provide some insight. Currently the title is a run-on sentence and two ideas are running together.

Naming of threads is getting to be a bit of a problem these days. Please read the rules for starting threads when you start them.

OK - now is the thread title about this. Something is wrong in Gurdwaras Sahib. Shabad Katha is taking the place of Shabad Kirtan. If this is what the title is saying, let me know and then I will work on making it shorter.

Thanks aad0002


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 11, 2009)

*Re: What's going on these days in Gurdwara Sahibs is 'Shabad Katha' and not Shabad Ki*

*Shabad Katha OR. Shabad kirtan ?* could be clearer and concise.


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## spnadmin (Jun 11, 2009)

*Re: What's going on these days in Gurdwara Sahibs is 'Shabad Katha' and not Shabad Ki*

Thanks Gyani ji 

Because of Google search I left a lot of the main words in the title. But the concise questions at the beginning draw attention and are clear.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 11, 2009)

Guru Piayario Jios,
Gurfateh.

Tejwant Ji has aptly explained it all.
WE SIKHS have ABDICATED ALL RESPONSIBILITY....we are TRAITORS to GURMATT. Strong words !! YES...and of necessity.

1. KIRTAN. Guru Ji asked US..the SIKHS...the SANGAT to do KIRTAN - OURSELVES.
Things came to a head right in front of Guru Arjun ji Sahib....when the two Muslim Rababis Satta and Balwand Ji..became full of HANKAAR ( that its OUR KIRTAN SKILLS that DRAW the SANGAT TO GURU JI...without OUR KIRTAN..the GURU WILL LOSE all his Sangat !!) So on a pretext (long story)..they went on STRIKE !! First strike in Sikh history. Sikhs went to the Ragis and begged them to return...Eminent Sikhs like Baba budha Ji, Bhai Gurdass Ji went...no avail..the RAGIS stuck to their STUBBORN STAND..NO. Guru Ji also WENT in person...the Hankarees not only INSULTED GURU ARJUN JI..they also INSULTED GURU NANAK JI SAHIB. That was the Last Straw...Guru Ji said..I can take any insult..BUT an insult to GURU NANAK JI is somethign i cannot accept. From then on GURU JI took the Instruments...and instructed the Sangat to do JOTTIAN Kirtan...all together.
The Satta Balwand duo then realised their FOLLY....and began to look for a "negotiater"...BUT Guru Ji had banned all such "advocates"...the order was that anyone pleading on their behalf would be punished with face blackening and made to sit on a donkey..at last the Two Ragis managed to find a SIKH..so devout that HE self Blackened his own Face, and sitting on a Donkey arrived in the Guru darbaar and begged Guru Ji to Forgive the two....and he told Guru Ji..I have alreday accepted the punishment for pleading on their behalf...Guru Ji laughed...and allowed the two back...thats when they Sang the Satta balwand VAAR in Ramklali Raag..PRAISING the Same GURU Nnaak Ji and the other Gurus they had mistakenly insulted. THIS VAAR is SUPERFLOUSLY PRAISING GURU SAHIBS...comparing them to previous incarnations of Vishnu, Hindu devtas etc etc....BUT it is accepted as GURBANI becasue the DEEPER MEANINGS point towards AKAL PURAKH.
Till the late 1960's SANGATS still snag Kiratn in Jottians..in MALAYSIA TOO WE HAD A GARGAJJ JATHA using Chimtas and Dholkis etc to Sing kirtan loudly and the snagat woudl join in so enthuisatically...
ALL this STOPPED with the advent of the 3 MAN Ragi jatha..2 Vajahs and one Tabla man...PERFORMING KIRTAN on Stage while everyone just LISTENED. On the SIDE LINE..these 3 Man Groups also began to do Sehaj paaths..Akhand Paaths, Ardasses in Private Homes...etc to earn OVERTIME PAY....and soemtimes they would recruit naother two memebers..and Become PANJ PIYARAS...to Eat saradhs...Food served to "PANJ SINGHS"..in BRAHMIN FASHION...to fulfill wishes/send food to departed souls//etc..AS time went on..these 3 Man jathas EXPANDED like Mushrooms after a shower....then the FIGHTING for PRIME TIME also began...as more jathas than time....at times we used to have as amny as five jathas at one go...( LOcal TOUTS also sprang up...to Manage these Jathas..for a FEE of course...these touts arranged the jathas, got them tickets, places to perform..gurdawara stages..transported them from one Gurdwara to another in super quick fashion..so they could serve as amny as three Gurdawars in a short span of time...and SHARE/or take their CUT of teh SHABAD BHET..and thus Compettion began..which Jatha will goive  a bigger cut..earn bigger income....)Then the 3 Man jathas began to DISAPPEAR...underground...in the WEST...KABOOTARBAZEE...Gurdwara Parbhandaks began to brign in their own..friends..relatives...as Ragi jatha..and then made them disappear as illegals...thii still going ON !! Have heard from many such personal horror stories..exploitation..greed....ANY WONDER THEN that this has DETERIORATED so much...KIRTAN is for GAIN ONLY...no parchaar..no love for Gurbani...so STANDARDS DROP !! very Visible..drop in standards..every one is a "Hazooree ragi"...ever hear of the POPE..or the vatican Bishops...arriving at a LOCAL CHURCH to "serve as Priest" ?? well OUR Hazooree ragis..even Tkahat jathedars..arrive/send applications to serve as GRANTHIS...in Local Gurdawaras...

2. So we then advance to Shabad Katha...since Kiratn is just for earning money...and not many of the ragis/Hazooree ragis etc actually KNOW much Gurbani - being trained in DERAS...5% of their Shabad Kirtan/katha is ONE Panktee of a Gurbani Shabad...and 95% of..WADDEH BABAJI KEHNDEH HUNDEH SEE ( Here Waddeh baba Ji is their own DERA CHIEF..and thus by Comparison..the Baba Ji who wrote the GURBANI automatically becomes CHHOTTEH Babaji..but who cares ??)...kehndeh hundeh see..used to SAY..and SAY..and SAY..blah blah blah...Waddeh baba ji da ek kuttah hu8ndah see..usdah na see moti....moti used to matha tek to waddeh abba ji..daily...blah blah blah..and then oen day Waddeh babab Ji said...bring moti...blah blah blah...interspersed with Boloh ji Waheguru..Satnam Waheguru...then once more the Gurbani panktee..and back to waddeh babajis TALL TALES...ALL these jathas are from the DERAS..nanaksar..other sant deras..and newer Taksaals like Mta Kaullan Ji Taksaal etc..BUT the "Waddeh babaji are all from nanaksar/related deras...and their kirtan tours are to promote their DERA BABA ONLY..not GURBANI. THUS they NEVER DO AARTHS..never explain GURBANI..IF they do...then its TWISTED meanings..Miracle stories..mantars and jantars..to cure such and such disease etc etc...and BACK to Baba ji of their DERA.

Mostly ALL Gurdwaras invite such 3 man jathas..and that what we get in terms of parchaar...no wonder the Sikhs are going DOWNHILL....Sangats are entertained..Golucks overflow...Parbhandaks are happy..
GURBANI can safely stay under the Shining expensive Rumallahs....all wrapped up...with Chaur sahib bwing whisked above....

TRUTH is we have NO Shabad...NO KIRTAN...NO KATHA....of SUBSTANCE anymore..and we are solely RESPONSIBLE for this MESS. Its all entertainment....stories...miracles miracle cures..hocus pocus..or TWO LINERS that are sung with GUSTO by the babas...dhaarnas...jingle bells all the way.....while GURBANI is supposedly too difficult..snagat nu smajh nahin aundee ji.....sangats cant understand Gurbani..its too difficult..our two liner Jingle Bells are so easy..catchy..too....even the women can sing along...AA Giya Baba Vaid Rogian daa..or AA Giya Vanjara chhorrian leke...after all GURBANI is so DEEP..so SUBLIME..so "Arshi"..we are people of the World..low..earthy types...farmers..farm labour...
WE MUST TAKE ACTION FAST or we lose it all...if we havent lost it already...


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jun 12, 2009)

YouTube - Kirtan - Bhai Lall Ji & Jatha


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## spnadmin (Jun 12, 2009)

amarsanghera ji

I am very confused and need to have it explained in simple terms. The ragis (in the video that you posted) are not keshdhari and can't even tie a decent dastar. Is it the same Bahi Lall? See the video in this post to compare. 

Here is Bhai Lal who is the 17th generation of Bhai Mardana. Then the Bhai Lall in post 8 is also supposed to be 17 generation of Bhai Mardana. Yet we see a part of the sangat getting up and walking out in the middle of his kirtan. So anything you can do to clear it up, either on the thread or by pm would be immensely helpful.


YouTube - Shabad Kirtan - Bhai Lall Ji & Jatha @ Amritsar, India 2007

Qyoted material from YouTube site
_Kirtan - Bhai Lall Ji & Jatha. Bhai Lall Ji is the actual 17th generation muslim descendant of Bhai Mardana Ji (1459-1534). Bhai Mardana Ji was a follower and travelling companion of the Sikh founder Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaaj. He was with Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaaj in all of his journeys across India and Asia, which was for around fifty-four years. Bhai Mardana Ji used to play the string instrument, the Rabab, while Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaaj would sing shahads, paath etc. Some of Bhai Mardana Ji's shabads are in Sri Guru Granth Saihb Ji. The very first raagi acknowleged in Sikh history was Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaajs trusted friend and companion, Bhai Mardana Ji.

Bhai Lall Ji (sitting on the middle vaja) is a very knowledgeable muslim on Sikhism. He knows most of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by heart. His father was the Hazoori Ragi at Goindwal Sahib. Bhai Lal ji is devoted to the kirtan traditions of Gurmat Sangeet. The video was taken in Amritsar, India, in the 2007. 

Some more info on Bhai Lall Ji on the link below 

http://www.gurmatsangeet.org/index.ph...


_The shabad that Bhai Lall Ji is reciting is "gobindh milan kee eih thaeree bareeaa". The meaning of the Shabad is shown on the link below.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp...


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## spnadmin (Jun 12, 2009)

Awsw mhlw 5 ]
  *aa*s*aa* mehal*aa* 5 ||
 _Aasaa, Fifth Mehla:_
 
BeI prwpiq mwnuK dyhurIAw ]
   bh*ee* par*aa*path m*aa*n*u*kh dh*ae*h*u*r*ee**aa* ||
 _This human body has been given to you._
 
goibMd imlx kI ieh qyrI brIAw ]
   g*o*b*i*(n)dh m*i*lan k*ee* e*i*h th*ae*r*ee* bar*ee**aa* ||
 _This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe._
 
Avir kwj qyrY ikqY n kwm ]
   avar k*aa*j th*ae*r*ai* k*i*th*ai* n k*aa*m ||
 _Nothing else will work._
 
imlu swDsMgiq Bju kyvl nwm ]1]
   m*i*l s*aa*dhhasa(n)gath bhaj k*ae*val n*aa*m ||1||
 _Join the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; vibrate and meditate on the Jewel of the Naam. ||1||_
 
srMjwim lwgu Bvjl qrn kY ]
   sara(n)j*aa*m l*aa*g bhavajal tharan k*ai* ||
 _Make every effort to cross over this terrifying world-ocean._
 
jnmu ibRQw jwq rMig mwieAw kY ]1] rhwau ]
   janam br*i*thh*aa* j*aa*th ra(n)g m*aa*e*i**aa* k*ai* ||1|| reh*aa*o ||
 _You are squandering this life uselessly in the love of Maya. ||1||Pause||_
 
jpu qpu sMjmu Drmu n kmwieAw ]
   jap thap sa(n)jam dhharam n kam*aa*e*i**aa* ||
 _I have not practiced meditation, self-discipline, self-restraint or righteous living._
 
syvw swD n jwinAw hir rwieAw ]
   s*ae*v*aa* s*aa*dhh n j*aa*n*i**aa* har r*aa*e*i**aa* ||
 _I have not served the Holy; I have not acknowledged the Lord, my King._
 
khu nwnk hm nIc krMmw ]
   kah*u* n*aa*nak ham n*ee*ch kara(n)m*aa* ||
 _Says Nanak, my actions are contemptible!_
 
srix pry kI rwKhu srmw ]2]4]
   saran par*ae* k*ee* r*aa*khah*u* saram*aa* ||2||4||
 _O Lord, I seek Your Sanctuary; please, preserve my honor! ||2||4||_


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## Hardip Singh (Jun 12, 2009)

BweI mrdwnw ƒ isK pMQ dw pihlw kIrqnIAW hox dw mwn pRwpq hY[ pr jdo gurU nwnk pwqSwh ny asƒ ieh vifAweI idqI qW pihlW crn pwhul (AMimRq) iplwky, kys nw munwn dw aupdyS idqw-(igAwn rqnwvlI)[ Aj dy kIrqnIey vIr BweI mrdwnw dy hI jwnSIn (auqr AiDkwrI) hn[ hYrwngI huMdI hY ik gurU swihb dw auprlw aupdyS Aj dy kIrqnIey vIrW apr lwgU nhIN hUMdw? jykr hUMdw hY qW auh ies aupr Aml ikau nhIN krdy? kyswDwrI Aqy rihqvwn ho ky gurU dIAW KuSIAw ikauN pRwpq nhIN krdy?

*so isKu sKw bDpu hY BweI ij gur ky Bwxy ivic Awvy, AwpxY Bwxy jo cly BweI ivCuiV cotw KwvY]* (601)​

BweI nd lwl jI (vIr hkIkq rwey dy nwnw jI) ƒ isK bnwx smyN gurU hir rwie jI ny aupdyS idqw sI kys nhI ktwauny, topI nhIN pwxI, qMbwkU nhIN pIxw[ kI Aj gurbwxI gwiex sunx qy pVHn vwly vIr-kys dwVI ktwky, topI pwky qy keI hwlq ivc qMbwkU dw syvn krky guru-hukmW dI aulMGnw nhI kr rhy?

*gwivAw suixAw iqn kw hir Qwie pweY, ijn siqgur kI AwigAw siq siq kir mwnI]* (pMnw 669)


Aqy


*muK qy pVqw tIkw sihq] ihrdY rwmu nhI pUrn rhq] *(pMnw 887)​

sroqy ividAwrQI rUp huMdy hn[ aunHW AMdr kuJ kmzorIAW ho skdIAW hn[ pr gurU dy kIrqnIey, kQw vwck, pwTI, gMRQI qW isKI dw AwdrSk rUp hoxy cwhIdy hn[ qwik aunHW ƒ dyKky Awm AwdmI ivc isKI srUp Dwrn krn dI pryrnw jwgy[ hYrwngI hUMdI hY ik isKI srUp qy vWJy kIrqnIey, kQw vwck, pwTI Awid Awm isK ƒ isK sjx dI kI pryrnw dy skxgy?

*ibiKAw ikirAw Bdx (isr munwnw) qXwghu , jtw jUt rihbo Anurwghu *(gur iblws pw : 10)​

hrwngI hUMdI hY aunHW kIrqnI vIrW aupr ijnHW dw gurbwxI gwien krn ivc qW bVw ruJwn hY pr isKI srUp (gurmiq rihxI) Dwrn krn qy kqrWdy hn[ kI isKI srp ivc koeI Gwt hY ijs krky auh isKI srUp (jo siqgurU ny mhwn bKSs krky swƒ bKiSAw hY) ivc Awvx qy frdy hn[

*kuC kys ikrpwn ipRX kMGw sdIv] jo Dwrq, twrq nhIN, so Kwlsw sdIv] *(sRI gurU soBw gMRQ)​

hrwngI hUMdI hY ik AYsy isKI srUp qy kory kIrqnIey gurmiq, isKI qy isKI srUp dw prcwr kr pwxgy jdoN ik bhuq vwrI auh gurbwxI, gurmiq qy isK ieiqhws dI ivAwiKAw BI TIk nhIN kr pWdy[

*pihly muinAwd pMQ dI ieh rKI[ Bdx nhI krnw ieh ThrI jy pkI] (*pMQ pRwkS*)*


*Aqy pRQmy mnu prbODY Apnw pwCY Avr rIJwvY] *(pMnw 381)​

hYrwngI hUMdI hY aunHW pRbMDkW aupr BI jo ibnw isKI srUp dy kIrqnIAW, prcwrkW ƒ isK styz aupr jw gurduAwrw swihbwn ivKy kIrqn krn jW blx dI iezwzq dyky anW ƒ aqswhq kr rhy hn[ kI ies qrW krn nwl, ah ‘ibprn kI rIq’ dy BwgI nhIN bx rhy?
*AMDw AwgU jy QIAY ikaUN pwDr jwxY] Awip musY miq hoCIAY ikau rwhu pCwxY]* (pMnw 767)

*isK rihq mrXwdw Anuswr* *sMgq ivc kyvl isK hI gurU gRMQ swihb jI dI qwibAw bYT, gurbwxI dw kIrqn,* *kQw jW pwT kr skdw hY[* isK dw mqlb kvl rihqvwn isK hI hY nwik monw[ kys dwVI qoN bgYr bwkI sB bykwr hy [ sO lOV hY isK sMgqW ƒ smyN rihMdy sucyq hox dI ies pY rhI iprq ƒ smyN isr Tl pwx dI[ nhIqy ibnHW pCqwvy hor kuJ BI hQ nhIN Awxw[


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## spnadmin (Jun 12, 2009)

Hardip ji 

Looks as if these posts are almost identical. Do you need one deleted?


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## kiram (Jun 12, 2009)

Hardip Singh said:


> Dear All,
> These people have messed up the whole idea of Sikhism and Kirtan as was intiated By Guru Nanak Sahib.
> 
> BweI mrdwnw ƒ is`K pMQ dw pihlw kIrqnIAW hox dw mwn pRwpq hY[ pr jdo gurU nwnk pwqSwh ny ausƒ ieh vifAweI idqI qW pihlW crn pwhul (AMimRq) iplwky, kys nw munwn dw aupdyS idqw-(igAwn rqnwvlI)[ Aj dy kIrqnIey vIr BweI mrdwnw dy hI jwnSIn (auqr AiDkwrI) hn[ hYrwngI huMdI hY ik gurU swihb dw auprlw aupdyS Aj dy kIrqnIey vIrW aupr lwgU nhIN hUMdw? jykr hUMdw hY qW auh ies aupr Aml ikau nhIN krdy? kyswDwrI Aqy rihqvwn ho ky gurU dIAW KuSIAw ikauN pRwpq nhIN krdy?
> ...



Which Shabad is this ji?? Am unable to read ..


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 12, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Hardip ji
> 
> Looks as if these posts are almost identical. Do you need one deleted?



aad ji, they are. so i have deleted one. possibly hardip Singh ji pressed submit twice..
thanks.
*
Thank you Giani ji for your kindness. **Antonia*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 12, 2009)

kiram said:


> Which Shabad is this ji?? Am unable to read ..



Kiram Ji, 
Gurfateh jio.

This is NOT a Shabad..although in BOLD are Gurbani quotes.
Its an opinion post by Hardip Singh Ji about the Importance of REHIT that a Kirtaniya/kathawachak/preacher of Sikhi MUST ensure. Any person preaching GURMATT in a GURDWARA must ensure he is REHITWAAN - at the minimum he/she must be Keshadharee.dastardharee and not be visibly cutting/trimming his beard etc.


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## kiram (Jun 12, 2009)

Thank you Gyani Ji, sorry i was unable to read/ decipher through the post  
You've made it clear!!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 12, 2009)

Guru Piayario Jios,
Gurfateh.

I couldnt agree more with Hardip Singh Ji.
The SRM..Sikh Rehat maryada is very clear on this.
As an "INDIVIDUAL"..a SIKH can be of any race/creed/in any shape and form..and for HIMSELF/HERSELF..he she cna do paath/ardass/take hukmnama/etc etc with FULL FREEDOM. no one has nay right to interfere...
BUT when IN SANGAT...doing Parchaar in an OFFICIAL SANCTIONED CAPACITY...the Kirtaniya/Granthi/Kathwachak/Hukmnama Reader/Degh istributor/Chaur sewadaar etc etc etc ALL MUST be REHITWAAN SIKHS...at the MINIMUM they must be Visible SIKHS. Obviously MONAS/tobacco smokers/alcohol abusers etc are excluded. THIS is NOT anti-MONA - as already said..as an INDIVIDUAL..any person is perfectly within his/her rights to approach SGGS, do paath/take hukm etc as long as he/she observes the minimal reqyuirement sof covered hair/shoes removed, wash hands etc....BUT NOT SO IN SANGAT.

The Shabads that are titled MARDANA 1 and 2 are NOT penned by Mardana Ji..but by Guru nanak ji Sahib..ADDRESSED TO BHAI MARDANA JI. Slok mardana Ji...

Sikh History is clear that Bhai mardana jis very first injunction by Guru nanak ji was STOP CUTTING HAIR and STOP SMOKING HUKKAH. Muslim Rababis usually DO BOTH these acts regularly as these people were also Nais (barbers as well)
Now to Bhai Lall...He is banned from Harmandir sahib as he cuts hair and smokes.
GURMATT like Justice..must not only be DONE..it must be SEEN TO BE DONE....or it loses its effectiveness. Surely one who sings GURBANI from hsi heart..would imbibe some of it..and CHANGE his lifestyle !!! First things FIRST..THESE Rababis were allowed to do REGULAR KIRTAN in Harmandar sahib..PRE-1947....BUT in the Partition Period..THEY PREFERRED PAKISTAN. But when they moved to PAKISTAN....they found out that their Gurbani kirtan Skills were NOT IN DEMAND AT ALL...they regretted moving..BUt no use crying over SPILT MILK ?? Now a Resurgance in Cross Border travel, More and More Sikhs visiting Pakistan Gurdwaras...and all...led them to RE-THINK about KIRTAN...and so they are HERE..in DELHI..Amrtisar...
YES..they do have the Kirtan "OOMPH"..BUT MINUS the REHAT...its like an EMPTY SHELL...a CD Player playing an excellent Shabad. After all the NAMDHAREES play very beautifully and in RAAG too..BUT they also NEGATE the GURUSHIP of SGGS....and beleive in a Human Guru that sits at PAR with SGGS...can a SIKH tolerate that ?? Can a SIKH tolerate a Namdharee singing Kirtan in Shudh Raag...isnt that a PARODY ?? is GURBANI merely a RAAG/WORDS combination......sung by anyone ?? OR does THAT perosn has to be a BELIEVER ??? THE SRM is clear..it has got to be the BELIEVER.

Those are the doubts..questions....and they wont go away just like that...


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## Hardip Singh (Jun 12, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Hardip ji
> 
> Looks as if these posts are almost identical. Do you need one deleted?


 
yes. it was not deibrate as i was trying to correct some spelling mistakes in the Punjabi text and perchanec it got posted. you can please delete any one.
Thanks


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## spnadmin (Jun 12, 2009)

Hardip ji

Thank you -- Gyani ji was very kind and took care of it for us.


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## spnadmin (Jun 12, 2009)

Gyani ji and amarsanghera ji

I am still confounded and have questions. Please read posts 8 and 9 to see what I am asking. Any explanation whatsoever will make me eternally grateful.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jun 12, 2009)

aad ji

the post i made is a clip from 1970’s

The video you posted is quite recent

Maybe he has grown a  beard.

But it’s the same Bhai Lall


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## spnadmin (Jun 12, 2009)

Wow! I won't say more because it is not polite. :shy:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 12, 2009)

AAd Ji,
Gurfateh.

Your concerns are valid.

1. First things first....Genealogy..descendantship..blood ties..etc has absolutley NOTHING/NO VALUE in Gurmatt. THREE GURUS SAHIBS PROVED THIS TO US..right at the Beginning stages of Sikhi, when it was in its INFANCY STAGE and thus more vunerable. Guur nanak ji, Guur Angad Hi and Guru Amardass Ji REJECTED their First Born/Eldest/Son/Blood relations etc etc and CHOSE those they tested and found as most SUITABLE as successors. ALL the chosen Successors proved that Choice CORRECT and didnt fail Gurmatt in any Way. Thus Bhai mardana Jis "blood ties" with anyone shoudnlt count in the equation at all...and SHOULDNT EVEN BE MENTIONED..as it demeans in a way what the First THREE Gurus did.
Those who mention this descendancy have FAILED the GURU Jis...just as badly as those who RUSH TO BOW to a BEDI SAHIB..a BHALLA SAHIB..a SODHI SAHIB..etc..etc in the hope that somehow the Gurus "blood" line will be/is/maybe ??? something "greater than their TEACHINGS..the SGGS ???.
Thus I Totally REJECT anyone hwo claims to be 17th or whatever descendant of Guru Ji, Bhai mardana Ji, Bhai Mian Mir Ji, Bhai Budhu Shah ji..Bhai Farid Ji...etc etc etc. SO WHAT ?? i say. WE MUST emphahsise their QUALITIES..their KNOWLEDGE..the way they FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS of SGGS....are they SINCERE ?? or merely PEDDLING their ancestory ???

2. Yes its most probably the SAME bhai lall Ji....Muslims too can grow  a beard.. ( IN FACT dastaars and BEARDS were Banned byt eh Muslim Authorities back then as  away of SUBJUGATING the HINDUS as SLAVES..hence the Laws that ONLY... Muslims..can wear dastaar, called Sardar, Ride a Horse, keep weapons, grow his hair/beard , walk TALL and straight...etc etc and Guru Hargobind Ji Ji BROKE these LAWS by INSISTING that ALL Sikhs must  henceforth Ride horses, keep  weapons, carry weapons etc and  Guru Gobind Singh ji further made the Long Kesh mandatory wehn He instituted the Khalsa in 1699) The earlier video is of him as a young marassii....intent on keeping his marassi demeanour..and the later video is recent and he is keeping a beard as possibly to avoid directly offending sikhs.

3. DUALITY....is the bane of many. They simply cannot decide which ONE BOAT to take a ride in. Nusrta fateh Khan was a MUSLIM..he died a MUSLIM...and he too SANG much GURBANI...especially Sloks of Fraid Ji from SGGS...but he never pretended to be a Kirtaniya...He sang Gurbani as a labour of Love..and he sang OUTSIDE Gurdwaras..and NOt in the Presence of SGGS. He was firmly in the Muslim Boat. Sadly some cant decide....Bhai lall ji is an example...He wants to be both Muslim and Kirtaniya..which is not acceptable to many SIKHS becasue to them its a sacrilege to see a VISIBLE NON-SIKH "PREACHING" GURMATT/GURBANI to SIKH SANGAT in the Presence of SGGS. After all "kirtan" is NO just ENTERTAINMENT....that an accomplished Ragi sings in the Right raag..perfectly in tune.taal etc...a GROUP of SIKH CHILDREN...singing out of Raag, hopelessly out of tune with Vaja going North and Tabla going East...would be better received IF they are SINCERELY singing out of LOVE of Gurbani rather than for BHETA.

A MUSLIM has a different FAITH system...his beleifs based on the Koran are vastly different from those expressed by  the Sikh GURUS in SGGS...can He really reconcile the Gobind Milan kee eh teri bareeah.....with the Muslim beleif in Day of Judgement ?? Or is he just singing Gobind milan kee for a SIKH audence..and then in the Mosque he beleives in the Day of Judgement ?? BHAI MARDANA JI went with GURU NANAK ji ALL the WAY..imho HE CHOSE the ONE PATH and was NOT in Duality.These are Tough choices...one has to make them..one cannot be in DUAL MODE.

Then this leads to a deeper part of the pool...dangerous territory..
1. IF a Muslim with cut beard etc is allowed to PREACH in a Gurdwara to a Sikh Sangat via Gurbani Kirtan ..then would that same rule be followed for a "Sikh" who cuts his beard and is mona ??
2. Then could a Muslim be also allowed to sit Tabiah and do paath or take Hukmanam for a Sikh Sangat and PREACH GURBANI through explaining the Hukm?
3. Then a Muslim may be allowed to distribute DEGH/serve Langgar etc. Would the Muslim hold the Kirpan and degh bhet as a Sikh would (conviction)
4. Would a Muslim be able to DO ARDASS...pray the SIKH ARDASS...honestly...
5. The PANJ PIYARA is really the DEEPEST part of the ocean....tsunami !! no need to even ask ??

The 64 Kror question is WHERE DO WE DRAW the LINE.... the KIRTAN Stage...the Katha Stage..The Tabiah..the Degh Stage..the Ardass Stage... the Panj Stage.... The SIKH REHAT MARYADA draws the LINE at the Kirtan Stage....Right at the BEGINNING. ALL PREACHING of GURBANI to a SIKH SANGAT in a GURDWARA in the Presence of the SGGS MUST be done by a PRACTISING SIKH. Period.
*INDIVIDUALLY..for his own self.ANYONE can do all 4 of the ABOVE* That is the real BEAUTY of SIKHI/GURMATT...as an INDIVIDUAL..barely learnign to WALK on the Gurmatt Paath..anyone is allowed all FREEDOM to love the Guru in his/her own way....and when duly PROGRESSED to Practising Sikhi Stage...He/she can then PREACH to OTHERS. DO what I DO...there is NO place for Avar updasseh aap na kareh..             Follow what I SAY. (PREACHING) .BUT DONT do what i do..(PRACTISE) .??? is a definite NO NO NO.                   It has to be..   PREACH and PRACTISE.:advocate::advocate:SRM.


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## spnadmin (Jun 12, 2009)

Gyani ji

Who can add anything to your essay? :welcome: It is all there. You touched on all my questions including the ones I did not state explicitly. Truly it was a puzzle to understand what was going on because I picked up nuances that were disturbing in both videos, especially the first one, but also the second one. Mostly I was wondering - What were they doing? And the idea is always there in the background -- they are in a gurdwara, he is giving a katha of sorts, he is not in bana,* he does not keep kesh,* a big percentage of the  sangat is going out the door. Everything was topsy-turvy.

And than you for 4 great lessons in one post.


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