# Contradictions Of Opinion



## Astroboy (Mar 21, 2008)

The spiritual Ks that please God 

Something I and every Sikh soon realises is that there are alot of contradictions in the religion.

This confuses the seeker and many get disillusioned and leave the path. Or just carry on the path but never dig deeper to really understand the deeper divine wisdom.

For example take the 5Ks, they are very visible symbols of the religion. Everyone knows about them. Everyone says Guru Gobind Singh Ji told us to wear them. When I started wearing them I along with many other Sikhs I know went through a stage of thinking I am better than the people who are not wearing them. Because we had the belief that by strictly wearing these symbols it showed Guru Gobind Singh Ji how much we loved him. And that meant we were blessed. 

However, when we read the Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji we quickly learnt that NOT ONE SINGLE EXTERNAL symbol or uniform or ritual gives us salvation. And that believing any symbol , any religious uniform or any religious ritual was going to please God was false.

So there we were CONFUSED. On one side you have the religion saying we need all these symbols, uniforms and rituals. But the very Guru we have infront of us right now says they are USELESS. Only NAAM is of any use.

Then I found that most Sikhs I know choose to follow what the religion says and keep on getting harder in the symbols, uniforms and rituals. And let the religion overrule what their Guru Granth Sahib ji is telling them.

We keep saying Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji is our Guru, so read the following from our Guru and apply it to our own attitude towards the 5Ks, Bana and Sikh rituals.

I realise that some Sikhs will feel offended that this email is challenging what they hold most dear. But this is not meant to offend. Guru Gobind Singh ji gave us all these external things in 1699, but he also told us that Guru Granth Sahib ji is now our Guru. So why dont we put the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib ji - our Guru right now, HIGHER THAN ANYTHING that has gone before? And stop judging others who dont have the same Sikh appearance?


If we put the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib Ji higher than even our Sikh religious practices, we would be the greatest, open minded, loving hearts, full of naam that the world had ever seen.

Read the following quotes carefully and apply them to our own Sikh practices - they are the benchmark of Truth:


*Keski : The Turban that pleases God*

Purify what is impure, and let the Lord's Presence be your religious tradition.
Let total awareness of God be the turban on your head. ||12||​ 
SGGS 1084-9​ 
*Kesh : The Hairstyle that pleases God*


Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.
You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||​ 
SGGS 1365-15​ 
*Kanga : The comb that pleases God*


Kabeer, why do you slander the wife of the king? Why do you honor the slave of the Lord?
Because one combs her hair for corruption, while the other remembers the Name of the Lord. ||160||​ 
SGGS 1373-2​ 
*Kirpan : The sword that pleases God*

Guru (Nanak Ji) implanted the almighty sword of the Teachings to illuminate his (Guru Angad Ji) soul.​ 
SGGS 966-17​ 
*Kara : The bangle that pleases God*



If the bride wears the Lord's Name, as the garland around her neck,
if she uses the Lord as her toothbrush;
and if she fashions and wears the Creator as the bracelet around her wrist,
then she shall hold her consciousness steady. ||2||​ 
SGGS 359-10​ 
*Kacha : The underwear that pleases God*



You wear two loin cloths, and keep your head covered.
If you know God and the nature of karma,
you know that all these rituals and beliefs are useless.
Says Nanak, meditate on the Lord with faith.
Without the True Guru, no one finds the Way. ||1||​ 
SGGS 1353-8​ 
*Khanda : The path of the double edged sword that leads to God *



To forsake pride, emotional attachment, and the sense of 'mine and yours',
is the path of the double-edged sword. ||3||​ 
SGGS 534-13​ 
*Khalistan : The Kingdom of the Pure*



The peace which is obtained by serving God, the Lord of the Universe – 
that peace cannot be found in kingdoms or power. ||1||Pause||
SGGS 336-8​ 
The wealth of the Naam is worth millions of kingdoms to me; 
O God, please bless me with Your Ambrosial Glance of Grace. ||1||
SGGS 716-11​ 
*Kaum : The Greatest Tribe*



Among masters, You are the Master. Among tribes, Yours is the Supreme Tribe. ||1||
SGGS 507-11​ 
*Khalsa Panth : Path of the Pure *


I dedicate my mind to Him, and renounce my ego. This is the Path which I shall take.
SGGS 1098-14​ 
(Source: {url not allowed} - 18. The spiritual Ks that please God)​ 


I am not saying we accept this article blindly. Most of the verses from SGGS are one liners and would be read out of context. So sadh sangat ji, a post mortem is clearly necessary. Don't be misled by its 'beautiful presentation'. 

Pour in all your comments please.


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## svea00 (Mar 21, 2008)

namjap ji!

Thank you for this topic. Nice summary on it. This is actually just what I´m wondering about. 
Hope, it will be a lively discussion.
*
Kesh : The Hairstyle that pleases God*


 Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.
 You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||​ SGGS 1365-15​ 
*Kaum : The Greatest Tribe*



 Among masters, You are the Master. Among tribes, Yours is the Supreme Tribe. ||1||
 SGGS 507-11​ 


1. That´s interesting. So it is ok to shave if you shave all? This is the first time I´ve heard of this. Can anyone explain this to a beginner-seeker?

Anyway, I would go for the first, long hair option.

2.  I thought that: chakkra chihan ar baran jaat, ar paat naihin jih. ??

As said, I´m a beginner in sikhi and pleased to take part in this discussion and learn something.


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## Astroboy (Mar 21, 2008)

Sikh Army Batallion seek strength from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
YouTube - Guru Granth Sahib video about Sikhism


What Guruka Singh has to say about 5K's ?
YouTube - Bana and the Sikh Identity
YouTube - Gurdwara Sikh Paris France

YouTube - Stories of Guru Nanak - Part 1
YouTube - TAKE AMRIT BAPTISIM- SIKH RELIGION


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## pk70 (Mar 21, 2008)

namjap said:


> .
> 
> Then I found that most Sikhs I know choose to follow what the religion says and keep on getting harder in the symbols, uniforms and rituals. And let the religion overrule what their Guru Granth Sahib ji is telling them.
> 
> ...


 
namjap ji

The quotes given from GGS Ji do not oppose five kakars of Sikhs at all, they are exposing hypocricy. Tenth Nanak gave a decipline to the Sikhs after centuries of First Nanak's teachings in practice. Guru Granth Sahib's teachings are mandatory to practice, if ignored, 5 kakars do not convey anything; however, they are very important though for accepting Guru ji's Hukam. Sikhs do not disobey Guru, when they do, they cease to be Sikhs and turn to be hypocrites.
People who are imbued to Guru teachings and wearing 5 kakars never look at others as inferiors, they have backing of Guru Granth Sahib ji for that kind of behaviour. Sikhs are the only ones who are taught to respect all, wish good for all as per HIs creation and Hukam even then they are not supposed to be proud of it as per Gurmat.. Contradiction is made but doesnt exist.


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## Astroboy (Mar 22, 2008)

Svea00 Ji,

What's your opinion on pk70's explanation taking into consideration that SGGS was compiled first and then the formation of Khalsa, Amrit and 5K's came into play later.


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## svea00 (Mar 22, 2008)

namjap said:


> Svea00 Ji,
> 
> What's your opinion on pk70's explanation taking into consideration that SGGS was compiled first and then the formation of Khalsa, Amrit and 5K's came into play later.



namjap ji!

I have a quite limited understanding on this subject. 
But I think it was supposed to form a religious group (or a sangat) with for all obvious visual signs of a community. I think you have to consider the times back then, with a quite new religion trying to emancipate itself and also to strife for it´s rights. In this context the 5 k´s might have had also a quite practical approach. Forming a outstanding group and remembering your principles in all your doings (kesh and kara), keep it clean and tidy also during struggly times (keski and kanga), wear practical and simple clothings, also to remember to keep detached from maya (kacha), to protect this very young religious group (kirpan and khanda). They also might have wished during these troubly times to form a country where sikhs can live free and practise their religion freely (khalistan). 

I do think that you (not me yet ) are wearing these 5 k´s to remember all this, but I (you may call I my limited sight or understanding on sikhi) think that the spiritual aimes in sikhi, as praying, jap, naam,... are much more important than outer signs. 
On the other hand I feel at the same time that wearing the 5 k´s you´re constantly aware of your sikh identity and this my make it easier to do be aware of god and naam all the time.
As I believe god not to be personified and to be detached from feelings, I don´t think god is " pleased" by such things as how you dress and what you wear as long you respect him/her, his/her creation and remember him/her constantly.

I hope, I was able to express my opinion on the subject in an understandable way, it´s sometimes rather hard for a non-english speaker not to be misunderstood.
I´d like to add that I´m not at all against the 5 k´s, I myself am slowly turning towards them as I do see them as a integral part of sikhi.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 23, 2008)

> Something I and every Sikh soon realises is that there are alot of contradictions in the religion. This confuses the seeker and many get disillusioned and leave the path. Or just carry on the path but never dig deeper to really understand the deeper divine wisdom.​


Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.
You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||
SGGS 1365-15​ 

ਲੁੰਜਿਤਮੁੰਜਿਤਮੋਨਿਜਟਾਧਰਅੰਤਿਤਊਮਰਨਾ॥੧॥
lunjith munjith mon jattaadhhar anth thoo maranaa ||1||
The Jains with shaven heads, the silent ones, the beggars with matted hair - in the end, they all shall die. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 476​ 

ਜਟਾਭਸਮਲੇਪਨਕੀਆਕਹਾਗੁਫਾਮਹਿਬਾਸੁ॥
jattaa bhasam laepan keeaa kehaa gufaa mehi baas ||
What is the use of wearing matted hair, smearing the body with ashes, and living in a cave?​ 
ਮਨੁਜੀਤੇਜਗੁਜੀਤਿਆਜਾਂਤੇਬਿਖਿਆਤੇਹੋਇਉਦਾਸੁ॥੨॥
man jeethae jag jeethiaa jaan thae bikhiaa thae hoe oudhaas ||2||
Conquering the mind, one conquers the world, and then remains detached from corruption. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 1103​ 
Gurbani talks about people with extreme religious tapas, those with shaven heads and those with long matted hairs. And it says they will all die. But this is not the description of the Khalsa Gursikh, who maintains uncut hairs which are clean and neatly combed, who is a householder raising a family and not a renunciate practicing bodily punishments. So the pauri is describing austerities, or extreme spiritual practices and saying you will not get liberation this way.​


> For example take the 5Ks, they are very visible symbols of the religion. Everyone knows about them. *Everyone says* Guru Gobind Singh Ji told us to wear them. When I started wearing them I along with many other Sikhs I know went through a stage of thinking I am better than the people who are not wearing them. Because *we had the belief that by strictly wearing these symbols* it showed Guru Gobind Singh Ji how much we loved him. And that meant we were blessed. ​
> However, when we read the Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji *we quickly learnt that NOT ONE SINGLE EXTERNAL symbol or uniform or ritual gives us salvation.* *And that believing any symbol , any religious uniform or any religious ritual was going to please God was false.*​


Veer Ji, "_everyone says Guru Gobind Singh Ji told us to wear kakkars_? Then you started wearing them?" You see, something big is missing from your post here. Something HUGE.
What about...the *Panj Piare? *I'm assuming, that you received amrit. Did the Panj Piare not tell you to wear Panj Kakkars? And do you not accept that Panj Piare are the sargun saroop of Guru Ji Himself? You say, you read Dhan Dhan Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But this contradicts... what everyone said. You quickly learned that not one single external symbol or uniform or ritual gives salvation. And you learned this from Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?
Veer Ji,* the Panj Piare are Guru Ji*. And looking at the SGPC Rehit Maryada it says:​


> p. After this, one from amongst the five beloved ones should explain to the initiates the discipline of the order : * Today you are reborn in the true Guru's household, ending the cycle of migration, and joined the Khalsa Panth (order). *Your spiritual father is now Guru Gobind Singh and spiritual mother, Mata Sahib Kaur. *Your place of birth is Kesgarh Sahib and your native place is Anandpur Sahib. You, being the sons of one father, are, inter-se yourselves and other baptised Sikhs, spiritual brothers. You have become the pure Khalsa, having renounced your previous lineage, professional background, calling (occupation), beliefs, that is, having given up all connections with your caste, descent, birth, country, religion, etc. ​
> You are to worship none except the One Timeless Being (Waheguru) no God, Goddess, incarnation or prophet. *You are not to think of anyone except the ten Gurus and anything except their gospel as your saviour.* You are supposed to know Gurmukhi (Punjabi alphabet). (If you do not, you must learn it). And recite, or listen in to the recitation of, the under mentioned scriptural compositions, the daily repetition of which is ordained, every day (1) The Japuji Sahib, (2) The Jaap Sahib, (3) The Ten Sawayyas (Quartrains), beginning "sarawag sudh", (4) The Sodar Rahiras and the Sohila. Besides, you should read from or listen in to the recitation from the Guru Granth Sahib . Have, on your person, all the time, the five K's :​
> *I. The Keshas (unshorn hair), *
> *II. The Kirpan {sheathed sword} (The length of the sword to be worn is not prescribed., *
> ...


There is nothing in the amrit Sinchaar ceremony that says you *wear Panj Kakkars to have salvation.* In fact, it says clearly, the Panj are required to instruct you fully that you are *not to think of anyone except the 10 Gurus and anything except their gospel as your savior.* And if you are in fact amritdhari, you know that all questions about Khalsa Rehit you take directly to the Panj. Now, maybe I'm just missing something big. Maybe you just put on Panj Kakkars because you thought this could give you salvation. Please make clear Veer Ji. Because just to wear kakkars does not make you amritdhari. And just to chuk amrit does not make you a Gursikh. It does not make you a perfect person or even holy. To become amritdhari gives you _*a*_ _path to walk, a spiritual sadhana, a practice._ You practice at becoming a good person.* Guru Ji is your salvation.* It's by living daily in obedience to Guru Ji's hukam that you get somewhere spiritually, by discipline and faithfulness to Guru, not by wearing a uniform.​


> So there we were CONFUSED. On one side you have the religion saying we need all these symbols, uniforms and rituals. *But the very Guru we have infront of us right now says they are USELESS. Only NAAM is of any use.*
> Then I found that most Sikhs I know choose to follow what the religion says and keep on getting harder in the symbols, uniforms and rituals. And let the religion overrule what their Guru Granth Sahib ji is telling them. We keep saying Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji is our Guru, so read the following from our Guru and apply it to our own attitude towards the 5Ks, Bana and Sikh rituals.​


 
ਬੰਕੇਬਾਲਪਾਗਸਿਰਿਡੇਰੀ॥
bankae baal paag sir ddaeree ||
You make your hair beautiful, and wear a stylish turban on your head.​ 
ਇਹੁਤਨੁਹੋਇਗੋਭਸਮਕੀਢੇਰੀ॥੩॥
eihu than hoeigo bhasam kee dtaeree ||3||
But in the end, this body shall be reduced to a pile of ashes. ||3||​ 
ਊਚੇਮੰਦਰਸੁੰਦਰਨਾਰੀ॥
oochae mandhar sundhar naaree ||
Your palaces are lofty, and your brides are beautiful.​ 
ਰਾਮਨਾਮਬਿਨੁਬਾਜੀਹਾਰੀ॥੪॥
raam naam bin baajee haaree ||4||
But without the Lord's Name, you shall lose the game entirely. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 659​ 
ਨਾਨਕਤੇਸੋਹਾਗਣੀਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਪਰਗਟੁਹੋਇ॥੧੯॥
naanak thae sohaaganee jinhaa guramukh paragatt hoe ||19||
O Nanak, the Gurmukhs are the happy, virtuous soul-brides; the Lord is revealed to them. ||19||​ 
ਜਉਤਉਪ੍ਰੇਮਖੇਲਣਕਾਚਾਉ॥
jo tho praem khaelan kaa chaao ||
If you desire to play this game of love with Me,​ 
ਸਿਰੁਧਰਿਤਲੀਗਲੀਮੇਰੀਆਉ॥
sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao ||
then step onto My Path with your head in hand.​ 
ਇਤੁਮਾਰਗਿਪੈਰੁਧਰੀਜੈ॥
eith maarag pair dhhareejai ||
When you place your feet on this Path,​ 
ਸਿਰੁਦੀਜੈਕਾਣਿਨਕੀਜੈ॥੨੦॥
sir dheejai kaan n keejai ||20||
give Me your head, and do not pay any attention to public opinion. ||20||
~SGGS Ji p. 1412​ 

Something else big is missing from the picture. If you want to play this game of love, and place your feet on this path...step onto my path with your head in your hand. How can anyone really *do* that? How can you sacrifice yourself? From where comes such courage, such devotion, such power? Everyone wants it. Where do you get it? _Where do you get what it takes to stand up and be counted?_​ 
Chanting the Lord's Name is what will give you the commitment to walk on the difficult path and surrender no less than everything; to put a noose around your own panj dhoots, *even to embrace shaheedi.* When you become amritdhari, the Panj Piare are supposed to instruct you in _Vahiguru Gurmantara._ You receive the Naam from Panj Piaras because you can only receive the Naam from Guru Ji's own saroop. You receive a technique that is a very powerful way to transform your mind.​


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 23, 2008)

(Continued)

ਪਿੰਡਿਮੂਐਜੀਉਕਿਹਘਰਿਜਾਤਾ॥
pindd mooai jeeo kih ghar jaathaa ||
When the body dies, where does the soul go?​ 
ਸਬਦਿਅਤੀਤਿਅਨਾਹਦਿਰਾਤਾ॥
sabadh atheeth anaahadh raathaa ||
It is absorbed into the untouched, unstruck melody of the Word of the Shabad.​ 
ਜਿਨਿਰਾਮੁਜਾਨਿਆਤਿਨਹਿਪਛਾਨਿਆ॥
jin raam jaaniaa thinehi pashhaaniaa ||
Only one who knows the Lord realizes Him.​ 
ਜਿਉਗੂੰਗੇਸਾਕਰਮਨੁਮਾਨਿਆ॥੧॥
jio goongae saakar man maaniaa ||1||
The mind is satisfied and satiated, like the mute who eats the sugar candy and just smiles, without speaking. ||1||​ 
ਐਸਾਗਿਆਨੁਕਥੈਬਨਵਾਰੀ॥
aisaa giaan kathhai banavaaree ||
Such is the spiritual wisdom which the Lord has imparted.​ 
ਮਨਰੇਪਵਨਦ੍ਰਿੜਸੁਖਮਨਨਾਰੀ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥
man rae pavan dhrirr sukhaman naaree ||1|| rehaao ||
O mind, hold your breath steady within the central channel of the Sushmanaa. ||1||Pause||​ 
ਸੋਗੁਰੁਕਰਹੁਜਿਬਹੁਰਿਨਕਰਨਾ॥
so gur karahu j bahur n karanaa ||
Adopt such a Guru, that you shall not have to adopt another again.​ 
ਸੋਪਦੁਰਵਹੁਜਿਬਹੁਰਿਨਰਵਨਾ॥
so padh ravahu j bahur n ravanaa ||
Dwell in such a state, that you shall never have to dwell in any other.​ 
ਸੋਧਿਆਨੁਧਰਹੁਜਿਬਹੁਰਿਨਧਰਨਾ॥
so dhhiaan dhharahu j bahur n dhharanaa ||
Embrace such a meditation, that you shall never have to embrace any other.​ 
ਐਸੇਮਰਹੁਜਿਬਹੁਰਿਨਮਰਨਾ॥੨॥
aisae marahu j bahur n maranaa ||2||
Die in such a way, that you shall never have to die again. ||2||​ 
ਉਲਟੀਗੰਗਾਜਮੁਨਮਿਲਾਵਉ॥
oulattee gangaa jamun milaavo ||
Turn your breath away from the left channel, and away from the right channel, and unite them in the central channel of the Sushmanaa.​ 
ਬਿਨੁਜਲਸੰਗਮਮਨਮਹਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਵਉ॥
bin jal sangam man mehi nhaavo ||
At their confluence within your mind, take your bath there without water.
~SGGS Ji p. 327​ 
The Ida (left) and the Pingala (right) nadis (channels) carry the life energy (prana). The flow of prana is stimulated by the practice of pranayam. Ask yourself Veer ji, why would technique of pranayam be in Gurbani? This is what I mean, something is missing from the spiritual practice of the average Sikh. When you chuk amrit, the Panj Piare are supposed to impart something to you that *opens the door* to your liberation. And most people don't receive it. this is Naam. So the average Sikh reading this doesn't know what it's talking about in relation to Naam japna. And this is more than just a pranayam exercise. You receive an energy. No one can fake it. It has to be given. You can't give it to yourself.​ 
_And why would a technique even be important?_​ 
Why not just think love and become love? If I chant love all day will I become loving? That's because we all have inner demons, we have wounds on the soul from lifetimes. Maya knows how to bring out the worst in us. Without this _opening of spiritual energy pathway_, the recitation of Gurmantra has no power to clean your mind or karams. Because these nadis influence the pineal gland and the *neurotransmitters altering our physical brain chemistry. *It does more on a subtle energy level beyond the physical, and enters into non-physical spiritual reality of our being. *Naam has the power to change our consciousness. *​ 
In this way, an amritdhari person receives more than a set of clothes. By sincerely practicing Gursikhi and keeping faithful to Guru, by keeping Rehat and practice of Saas Giras Naam Simran,* the Naam he receives has the power to change him completely.* Not overnight, but according to his karam, his faithful practice and Guruji's kirpa. That is my belief and best understanding. You can't just take the Naam and run with it. It's a complete package. You have the amrit, you have the Naam, you have the discipline, you have the surrender, you have the Rehit Maryada, you have the Gurbani Kirtan of the Lord's praise, and you have the life to mature and put all this into practice. Here is where we make our mistakes and look in the mirror of the soul. One day, with Guruji's kirpa, we will find a jewel.​ 

ਇਹੁਮਨੂਆਦ੍ਰਿੜੁਕਰਿਰਖੀਐਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਲਾਈਐਚਿਤੁ॥
eihu manooaa dhrirr kar rakheeai guramukh laaeeai chith ||
Hold this mind steady and stable; become Gurmukh and focus your consciousness.​ 
ਕਿਉਸਾਸਿਗਿਰਾਸਿਵਿਸਾਰੀਐਬਹਦਿਆਉਠਦਿਆਨਿਤ॥
kio saas giraas visaareeai behadhiaa outhadhiaa nith ||
How could you ever forget Him, with each breath and morsel of food, sitting down or standing up?​ 
ਮਰਣਜੀਵਣਕੀਚਿੰਤਾਗਈਇਹੁਜੀਅੜਾਹਰਿਪ੍ਰਭਵਸਿ॥
maran jeevan kee chinthaa gee eihu jeearraa har prabh vas ||
My anxiety about birth and death has ended; this soul is under the control of the Lord God.​ 
ਜਿਉਭਾਵੈਤਿਉਰਖੁਤੂਜਨਨਾਨਕਨਾਮੁਬਖਸਿ॥੧॥
jio bhaavai thio rakh thoo jan naanak naam bakhas ||1||
If it pleases You, then save servant Nanak, and bless him with Your Name. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 314​ 

ਆਖਿਆਖਿਮਨੁਵਾਵਣਾਜਿਉਜਿਉਜਾਪੈਵਾਇ॥
aakh aakh man vaavanaa jio jio jaapai vaae ||
I speak and chant His Praises, vibrating the instrument of my mind. The more I know Him, the more I vibrate it.​ 
ਜਿਸਨੋਵਾਇਸੁਣਾਈਐਸੋਕੇਵਡੁਕਿਤੁਥਾਇ॥
jis no vaae sunaaeeai so kaevadd kith thhaae ||
The One, unto whom we vibrate and sing-how great is He, and where is His Place?​ 
ਆਖਣਵਾਲੇਜੇਤੜੇਸਭਿਆਖਿਰਹੇਲਿਵਲਾਇ॥੧॥
aakhan vaalae jaetharrae sabh aakh rehae liv laae ||1||
Those who speak of Him and praise Him-they all continue speaking of Him with love. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 53​ 

Holding the mind steady and stable and focusing consciousness, by speaking, chanting, making the body an instrument to vibrate His praises... this is how we can become Gurmukh. This technique belonged historically to purataan Gursikhi but is not well known or even well received today, although it does exist in the Khalsa Panth and not just to any particular Jathabandi. The technique of saas giras simran (with every breath and morsel of food) is found in Sri Prem Sumarg Granth Sahib Ji. Modern Sikhism lost touch with a lot of traditional purataan Gursikh practices.​ 

ਭਾਠੀਗਗਨੁਸਿੰਙਿਆਅਰੁਚੁੰਙਿਆਕਨਕਕਲਸਇਕੁਪਾਇਆ॥
bhaathee gagan sinn(g)iaa ar chunn(g)iaa kanak kalas eik paaeiaa ||
The Tenth Gate of my crown chakra is the distilling fire, and the channels of the Ida and Pingala are the funnels, to pour in and empty out the golden vat.​ 
ਤਿਸੁਮਹਿਧਾਰਚੁਐਅਤਿਨਿਰਮਲਰਸਮਹਿਰਸਨਚੁਆਇਆ॥੨॥
this mehi dhhaar chuai ath niramal ras mehi rasan chuaaeiaa ||2||
Into that vat, there trickles a gentle stream of the most sublime and pure essence of all distilled essences. ||2||​ 
ਏਕਜੁਬਾਤਅਨੂਪਬਨੀਹੈਪਵਨਪਿਆਲਾਸਾਜਿਆ॥
eaek j baath anoop banee hai pavan piaalaa saajiaa ||
Something wonderful has happened-the breath has become the cup.​ 
ਤੀਨਿਭਵਨਮਹਿਏਕੋਜੋਗੀਕਹਹੁਕਵਨੁਹੈਰਾਜਾ॥੩॥
theen bhavan mehi eaeko jogee kehahu kavan hai raajaa ||3||
In all the three worlds, such a Yogi is unique. What king can compare to him? ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 92​


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 23, 2008)

ਪੰਚਪਹਰੂਆਦਰਮਹਿਰਹਤੇਤਿਨਕਾਨਹੀਪਤੀਆਰਾ॥
panch peharooaa dhar mehi rehathae thin kaa nehee patheeaaraa ||
The five senses stand as guards at the gate, but now can they be trusted?​ 
ਚੇਤਿਸੁਚੇਤਚਿਤਹੋਇਰਹੁਤਉਲੈਪਰਗਾਸੁਉਜਾਰਾ॥੨॥
chaeth suchaeth chith hoe rahu tho lai paragaas oujaaraa ||2||
When you are conscious in your consciousness, you shall be enlightened and illuminated. ||2||​ 
ਨਉਘਰਦੇਖਿਜੁਕਾਮਨਿਭੂਲੀਬਸਤੁਅਨੂਪਨਪਾਈ॥
no ghar dhaekh j kaaman bhoolee basath anoop n paaee ||
Seeing the nine openings of the body, the soul-bride is led astray; she does not obtain that incomparable thing.​ 
ਕਹਤੁਕਬੀਰਨਵੈਘਰਮੂਸੇਦਸਵੈਂਤਤੁਸਮਾਈ॥੩॥੨੨॥੭੩॥
kehath kabeer navai ghar moosae dhasavain thath samaaee ||3||22||73||
Says Kabeer, the nine openings of the body are being plundered; rise up to the Tenth Gate, and discover the true essence. ||3||22||73||
~SGGS Ji p. 339​


> I realise that some Sikhs will feel offended that this email is challenging what they hold most dear. But this is not meant to offend. Guru Gobind Singh ji gave us all these external things in 1699, but he also told us that Guru Granth Sahib ji is now our Guru.


A spiritual discipline isn't an easy path or everyone could walk it as manmati. The point of a spiritual discipline is to walk against your inner manmat and put a noose around your 5 inner demons. This is how we change, not by wearing kakkars. All the world and Maya is pulling against you. Sadhana is a daily dying to self. If keeping kakkars was such a point of egotism, why isn't the whole world rushing to wear them and struggle to live up to what they mean? Why are kakkars a point of discrimination worldwide? Because it's not easy to keep this identity. ​ 
No matter how inflated you may think of yourself, if you keep faithful spiritual practice meditation is like a mirror...and what is there isn't a pretty picture. No matter how high you may think yourself, so low will you feel when you look in that mirror. And if you practice sincerely looking in that mirror of Guruji's truth everyday, it helps to keep you humble and in touch with your inner reality. You see, that high flying egotism is all delusion. And like a bubble, it has to burst. So don't worry too much if you see a lot of high flying people. It's really hard to look in that mirror. And flying high like that is just an escape. You can't avoid looking in that mirror sometime... when you close your eyes at night... when you have to die... the reality of who we are will tumble us off our pedestal. ​ 
So this whole thing is a game of love. And everyone approaches this path from a different level, depending on our past karams and our present understanding. Everything that comes to us is Guruji's grace. We can't jump to a higher level. We just come as we are. And Guruji takes us as we are and shows us a way to be better. When you're searching Gurbani, remember you're looking at the sant part of the sant-sipahi. Dasam Pita Ji included also the sipahi part of the equation. A description of kakkars can never be out of context. Gurbani doesn't contradict. Only our minds think contradiction.​


> So why dont we put the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib ji - our Guru right now, HIGHER THAN ANYTHING that has gone before? And stop judging others who dont have the same Sikh appearance? If we put the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib Ji higher than even our Sikh religious practices, we would be the greatest, open minded, loving hearts, full of naam that the world had ever seen.​


Veer Ji, with all the best intentions you will go the way of every other well intentioned path... into failure. Because Sikh religious practices aren't open-minded... their strict and demanding. Open-mindedness is a quality of heart not of method. Being open-minded alone won't give you what it takes to face hardship, bullets, hatred of the world. If you are so "open-minded" that your spiritual practice is singing a bit of kirtan, reading some Gurbani but has no real discipline... you won't be prepared. ​ 
The teachings of Shabadguru Ji cannot contradict the hukam of Guruji. Our Sikh religious practices are our dharam, given to us by Guruji. We have opportunity to put into practice our love for Guruji. It's meaningless to say you love Guru in all the conveniences of the way YOU want to. To love Guru you have to surrender all that you are. That's the discipline. That's why Guru loves the rehit but not the Sikh. He loves what you are becoming, not the egotism on the way.​ 
Everyday should be a small sacrifice, a bowing down of egotism, like practice of shaheedi while you're still alive. Because idealism alone doesn't transform consciousness. It's real hard work, sacrifice, inner honesty, loyalty to a path. These are the things that show love for Guru. Dressing a part doesn't please Guru. There's a reason we dress in Guruji's bana. Because when we do something good, when we look in the mirror with pride, it's not our darshan. And when we do something bad, we know how badly we failed to live up to that precious and wonderful darshan. So even Guruji's bana is like a mirror.​ 
No one is judging non-amritdharis. People are simply using Gurmat definitions of what a Sikh is, what an amritdhari is. No one is stopping anyone from living life however they want. The key is, don't live against Gurmat and say that it's Gurmat. That's all. If you want to cut hairs, do it! But don't say that's Gurmat. If people want to drink and smoke fine. Who can stop them? But if you want to follow a Gurmat path, you can't contradict Gurbani, Akal Takht, the Panj Piares, the Rehit Maryada you received amrit from because you made a commitment. ​ 
It isn't "closed-minded" or "judging" to distinguish one thing from another. That is bibek, discrimination. We have the right to discriminate for ourselves between things, and make best determination if its in line with Gurmat Gursikhi. Problems happen when people want to change the traditional definitions of what is Gurmat, and do a lot of things that aren't accepted and try to force the acceptance. That is what they call "judging." And naturally what happens is they get a strict definition, and they don't like it. And sometimes people try to find a way around that strict definition. But you would only be cheating yourself. Remember, pleasure is the poison, suffering is the cure.​ 
We are living in open societies. I have freedom to do what I want. I choose to put my life under strict discipline. Not because I think I'm better than somebody. Because I want to tame my own beasts. And I'm a much happier person. I have the freedom _for_, as well as freedom _from_. Discipline is a way to live that gives you great peace. If I didn't have my Guru, my rehit, my Naam abiyaas... I wouldn't have a reason for living. Everything else is fake and fades away... even my very life.​ 
I don't know how anyone can judge the spiritual development of the Singhs/Singhnia since no one can see whats happening on the inside, or where people have come from to be here now sharing in their best way a darshan of Guruji. Maybe if you look at someone's life over time, you can better judge success from failure. But most of all, don't worry too much about them. Worry about you.​ 
The Sikh Martyrs of Amritsar (1978)
YouTube - Kurbani
YouTube - Khalsa
YouTube - Bhai Harsimranpreet Singh
YouTube - BIBI MANJINDER KAUR ( KARTARPUR RAINSABAI SAMAGAM )​ 

~bhul chak maaf karni ji​


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## Astroboy (Mar 23, 2008)

*The point of a spiritual discipline is to walk against your inner manmat.*

Harjas Ji,

It's easier to die than walk against our inner manmat. So, therefore, Sikhism is the ultimate challenge which even the great samurais of the past fail to abide. Thus marking their extinction.
You're an enlightened soul because you have enlightened me with the pure essence emanating from your heart. Guru's Kirpa is definitely with you. 

I would like to understand more on *Naam has the power to change our consciousness.* Are there different levels of Naam ? When you say naam, isn't it the Anhad Bani ? Kindly share your experiences with us. What does it mean when Gurbani explains : 
ਉਲਟੀਗੰਗਾਜਮੁਨਮਿਲਾਵਉ॥
oulattee gangaa jamun milaavo ||
Turn your breath away from the left channel, and away from the right channel, and unite them in the central channel of the Sushmanaa.​ 

ਬਿਨੁਜਲਸੰਗਮਮਨਮਹਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਵਉ॥
bin jal sangam man mehi nhaavo ||
At their confluence within your mind, take your bath there without water.
~SGGS Ji p. 327​ 
the Panj Piare are supposed to impart something to you that *opens the door* to your liberation. And most people don't receive it. this is Naam.​ 
Also please elaborate on this *opening of the door to liberation*.​ 
I'm interested.​


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 24, 2008)

> I would like to understand more on *Naam has the power to change our consciousness.* Are there different levels of Naam ? When you say naam, isn't it the Anhad Bani ? Kindly share your experiences with us. What does it mean when Gurbani explains :
> 
> ਉਲਟੀਗੰਗਾਜਮੁਨਮਿਲਾਵਉ॥
> oulattee gangaa jamun milaavo ||
> ...




The Ida is the left channel, and the pingala is the right channel these are primary nadis (energy pathways) of the body. They flow together into the central shushmana nadi. "_At their confluence within your mind" _refers to the place where the 2 channels ida and pingala run along the spine intersecting the shushmana from the pubicoccygeal area to the location of the 6th chakra, approximately where your forehead is. At this spot where the ida and pingala meet the shushmana is also the location in the brain between the pituitary gland and the pineal gland. ​






​ 




​ 
By controlling the breath, pranayam, you are able to stimulate those glands of the brain redirecting your psycho-spiritual energies. This in turn allows the production of neurohormones and neurotransmitters which have an effect on your consciousness. It is a jugta by which you can clean the energy channels and allow the energy to be redirected to pierce through the barriers of the chakras and ascend to the 6th chakra where it has a powerful effect on your body-mind. This spiritual energy can unlock the dasm duar opening the crown chakra so you may have darshan of Vaheguru and hear the anehad shabad. You only hear the anehad shabad when the dasm duar is opened. This is the blossoming of the thousand petaled heart lotus. ​ 

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਸਾਚੁਮਿਲੈਤਾਵੇਖਾ॥
guramukh saach milai thaa vaekhaa ||
The Gurmukh attains Truth, and comes to see them.​

ਨਉਦਰਵਾਜੇਦਸਵੈਮੁਕਤਾਅਨਹਦਸਬਦੁਵਜਾਵਣਿਆ॥੩॥
no dharavaajae dhasavai mukathaa anehadh sabadh vajaavaniaa ||3||
Beyond the nine gates, the Tenth Gate is found, and liberation is obtained. The Unstruck Melody of the Shabad vibrates. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 110​ 

ਪਰਗਟੁਸਬਦੁਹੈਸੁਖਦਾਤਾਅਨਦਿਨੁਨਾਮੁਧਿਆਵਣਿਆ॥੫॥
paragatt sabadh hai sukhadhaathaa anadhin naam dhhiaavaniaa ||5||
The Giver of peace is revealed through the Shabad, meditating upon the Naam, night and day. ||5||​ 
ਅੰਤਰਿਜੋਤਿਪਰਗਟੁਪਾਸਾਰਾ॥
anthar joth paragatt paasaaraa ||
Deep within the self is the Light of God; It radiates throughout the expanse of His creation.​ 
ਗੁਰਸਾਖੀਮਿਟਿਆਅੰਧਿਆਰਾ॥
gur saakhee mittiaa andhhiaaraa ||
Through the Guru's Teachings, the darkness of spiritual ignorance is dispelled.​ 
ਕਮਲੁਬਿਗਾਸਿਸਦਾਸੁਖੁਪਾਇਆਜੋਤੀਜੋਤਿਮਿਲਾਵਣਿਆ॥੬॥
kamal bigaas sadhaa sukh paaeiaa jothee joth milaavaniaa ||6||
The heart-lotus blossoms forth, and eternal peace is obtained, as one's light merges into the Light. ||6||
~SGGS Ji p. 126​ 



> Are there different levels of Naam ?


There are different levels of your being. Naam exists in this level of reality, and in other dimensions as well. Just consider the physics of wave-particle duality. Even a sub-atomic particle which we imagine to be some kind of tiny object like a grain of sand, actually at those levels of size conform to quantum mechanics, not Newtonian laws. So it's not really perceivable as an object discrete in time and space. And that subatomic particle as well as being a particle which physicists can measure on a scale, is also a wave of energy. As the property of a wave, it is infinite in all directions. ​ 
Just accept that your physical body exists on a plane of dimensionality measurable in linear time. But another aspect of your physicality is able to transcend time and space just like the wave. Something in the transcendent aspect of your being is beyond the physical. If you vibrate your physical being in tune with the timeless Naam, you are able to raise your physical processes and transcend them.​ 

ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸਗਲੇ ਜੰਤ ॥ 
naam kae dhhaarae sagalae janth ||
The Naam is the Support of all creatures. ​

ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਖੰਡ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ॥ 
naam kae dhhaarae khandd brehamandd ||
The Naam is the Support of the earth and solar systems. ​ 
ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥ 
naam kae dhhaarae simrith baedh puraan ||
The Naam is the Support of the Simritees, the Vedas and the Puraanas.​ 
ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸੁਨਨ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ॥ 
naam kae dhhaarae sunan giaan dhhiaan ||
The Naam is the Support by which we hear of spiritual wisdom and meditation.​ 
ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਆਗਾਸ ਪਾਤਾਲ ॥ 
naam kae dhhaarae aagaas paathaal ||
The Naam is the Support of the Akaashic ethers and the nether regions.​ 
ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸਗਲ ਆਕਾਰ ॥ 
naam kae dhhaarae sagal aakaar ||
The Naam is the Support of all bodies.​ 
ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਸਭ ਭਵਨ ॥ 
naam kae dhhaarae pureeaa sabh bhavan ||
The Naam is the Support of all worlds and realms.​ 
ਨਾਮ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਉਧਰੇ ਸੁਨਿ ਸ੍ਰਵਨ ॥
naam kai sang oudhharae sun sravan ||
Associating with the Naam, listening to it with the ears, one is saved.
~SGGS Ji p. 284​ 


> You're an enlightened soul ​


I'm a morakh. I have no power to enlighten anyone. If something is truly enlightening, it's because I'm standing under the lamp of Gurbani. And if there's darkness in what I write, it's because my ego casts a big shadow and stands in the way of that wonderful light. ​


> It's easier to die than walk against our inner manmat. ​


We are dying every second because we walk according to our manmat and not according to Gurmat.​







> the Panj Piare are supposed to impart something to you that *opens the door* to your liberation. And most people don't receive it. this is Naam. Also please elaborate on this *opening of the door to liberation*.​


The door to liberation is the dasm duar. Naam Japna is the engine of our spiritual practice because the Naam Gurmatara we are given has the power to clean our subtle energy channels and pierce through the barriers in our 6 chakras allowing the energy to ascend and unlock the tenth gate, crown chakra. Only rehitvaan Gursikh Panj Piare who are Naam abiyaasi's can impart to someone the technique of Naam drirh at amrit sinchaar. No one but Panj Piare can impart this technique.​



ਉਲਟਤਪਵਨਚਕ੍ਰਖਟੁਭੇਦੇਸੁਰਤਿਸੁੰਨਅਨਰਾਗੀ॥
oulattath pavan chakr khatt bhaedhae surath sunn anaraagee ||
I turned my breath inwards, and pierced through the six chakras of the body, and my awareness was centered on the Primal Void of the Absolute Lord.​ 
ਆਵੈਨਜਾਇਮਰੈਨਜੀਵੈਤਾਸੁਖੋਜੁਬੈਰਾਗੀ॥੧॥
aavai n jaae marai n jeevai thaas khoj bairaagee ||1||​ 
Search for the One who does not come or go, who does not die and is not born, O renunciate. ||1||​ 
ਮੇਰੇਮਨਮਨਹੀਉਲਟਿਸਮਾਨਾ॥
maerae man man hee oulatt samaanaa ||
My mind has turned away from the world, and is absorbed in the Mind of God.​ 
ਗੁਰਪਰਸਾਦਿਅਕਲਿਭਈਅਵਰੈਨਾਤਰੁਥਾਬੇਗਾਨਾ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥
gur parasaadh akal bhee avarai naathar thhaa baegaanaa ||1|| rehaao ||​ 
By Guru's Grace, my understanding has been changed; otherwise, I was totally ignorant. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 333​ 

~Bhul chak maaf​​​​​


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## Astroboy (Mar 24, 2008)

*There are different levels of your being. Naam exists in this level of reality, and in other dimensions as well. Just consider the physics of wave-particle duality. Even a sub-atomic particle which we imagine to be some kind of tiny object like a grain of sand, actually at those levels of size conform to quantum mechanics, not Newtonian laws. So it's not really perceivable as an object discrete in time and space. And that subatomic particle as well as being a particle which physicists can measure on a scale, is also a wave of energy. As the property of a wave, it is infinite in all directions.* 

Harjas Ji,

Waves being free energy while particles are bottled-up energy. The unmanifested and the manifested. Nirgun and Sargun. 

Nirgun niroop hai, sundar swaroop hai, bhupan ke bhoop hai, data maha daan hai,
Praan ke devaiya, dhoodh poot ke devaiya...................................................

*Only rehitvaan Gursikh Panj Piare who are Naam abiyaasi's can impart to someone the technique of Naam drirh at amrit sinchaar. No one but Panj Piare can impart this technique.
*
Does this mean that many are being short-changed when taking Amrit ?
Do those who hear the Anhad Bani qualify to become Naam abiyaasi's ?

Talking about Anhad Bani - can you define the sound - similar to what ?


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## carolineislands (Mar 24, 2008)

namjap said:


> Sikh Army Batallion seek strength from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
> YouTube - Guru Granth Sahib video about Sikhism
> 
> 
> ...



Namjap ji,

Heartfelt thanks to you for posting this.  I get it.  And I feel less alone with my convictions since I read this post.

I still only wear kara and read Sri Guru Granth Sahib and daily Hukamnama and am focusing in on remembering the name of God.  I wear my kara because the Guru put it in my heart to do so and it was a very personal decision.  Most of the time it can't even be seen or noticed by others and is my own reminder to me where ever I am and whatever I am doing.  I have purchased dastar cloth and practice tying it and I have also purchased a kirpan.  I am waiting for some Sunder Gutka and a couple of other texts in English I have ordered from India.  The reason I don't wear the outer symbols of Sikhi yet is because I am not worthy to be a representative of Sikhi.  I probably will never be worthy but for some reason I feel I should be more worthy than I am now.
See, this is all profoundly personal for me.  The outer symbols, for me, need to be a sign of inner qualities and I would feel so much a hypocrit if I put on the outer before the inner substance was present.  
I have sensed the things you spoke of when you said you had a sort of feeling of superiority when you first started putting on bana.  I so much appreciate your honesty and humility about this because its very important to me.  I like what Guruka Singh says about it when he says bana is something you should do for yourself, not for others.  It is a reflection of your commitment, not to distinguish yourself.  
As in all facets of life, the motivation behind an action is more important than most of us might realize.  If the motivation is off kilter, then the action is hollow and cheapened.  That's what I am so aware of and my love for Sikhi grows every day, as does my love for Guru Nanak, and the last thing I want to do is cheapen his message.  I don't hesitate to wear the outer signs because I'm ashamed of what people will think -- I hesitate because I don't want to do it until I can back up bana with substance.  When that time will come -- I'll leave that up to God.

Thank you so much -- sincerely.


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## carolineislands (Mar 24, 2008)

svea00, your English is beautiful and I understood you quite well.


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## Astroboy (Mar 24, 2008)

Backing bana with bani - balancing the inner with the outer. Amazing thought, Caroline Ji.


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## carolineislands (Mar 24, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> *Guru Ji is your salvation.*...
> 
> ......
> 
> ...


​ 
Interesting, that the very Panj Piare that instruct you not to think of anyone except the Gurus as your savior are now being presented as the Guru.  Wouldn't that be thinking of them as your savior?
:hmm:
For me the point of the OP is to be careful not to let legalism overtake us.  Like bureauocracy, when the rule becomes more important that the purpose for which it was instituted, we have strayed off the path.

JMHO


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## Astroboy (Mar 24, 2008)

Caroline Ji,

My understanding of the Initiation - that it's a sacred process. A one-to-5 Pyare imparting vibrations which are too strong for the unprepared individual to digest. The process of preparation like vows of commitment within one's self is in itself an initial cleansing process. Nobody can decide for you. It's your inner strength that leads you to it. This commitment has an effect which allows changes to occur in all directions of your life. The initiation itself is the seed of spiritual progress planted in your consciousness.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 24, 2008)

> Only rehitvaan Gursikh Panj Piare who are Naam abiyaasi's can impart to someone the technique of Naam drirh at amrit sinchaar. No one but Panj Piare can impart this technique.
> 
> Does this mean that many are being short-changed when taking Amrit ?


Well obviously someone can't give what they don't have. Amrit is amrit per SGPC Rehat Maryada. But not all the Panj have this technique, so not all can impart it to you. It is a point of contention within the Panth. My belief is this was purataan Gursikh practice which was lost to the Panth. There are some supportive references to it in historical Sikh literature and Gurbani. It's a gupt practice, so it's in the Panth, but not that well known and accepted. I can't personally judge or devalue anybody's amrit or any Panj Piare. If you had amrit, then you're amritdhari. But I do believe Naam abiyaas Vaheguru simran is a valid method of liberation. If someone is amritdhari and _themselves_ feel something is missing from their spiritual practice, I invite those persons to consider receiving Naam drihr from Panj Piare so they can do Naam abiyaas. 




> Do those who hear the Anhad Bani qualify to become Naam abiyaasi's ?


If someone already hears the Anhad bani, his dasm duar is already opened. No one qualifies to become Naam abiyaasi, it is a technique given to you when you receive amrit from rehitvaan Naam abiyaasi Panj. If someone is a Naam abiyaasi, it just means they have a technique of japping Gurmantar for purposes of opening the tenth door with Guruji's kirpa. Like someone who just got to the classroom. If someone hears the Anhad bani he is already graduated college and is already Naam abiyaasi. Plus, not everyone heard the Anhad bani who says they do. A lot of fake babas and deravaad people get a technique from dedhari gurus, but they don't receive the Naam. You can only receive Naam from Panj Piare who are Guruji's own saroop.




> Talking about Anhad Bani - can you define the sound - similar to what ?


It is not a physical sound... and I don't hear it, so what can I say? Lol.

But I will say this much, people hear a lot of contention about Naam as their are different opinions in the Panth. But this is my experience: When I attended Naam simran with Naam abiyaasi's, I didn't know what I was hearing. And it was so loud and energetic. The room is dark and you hear these noises. It's a little unsettling. I tried to imitate what I was hearing because I wanted to participate, but I couldn't duplicate it. And at home at amrit vela, I tried doing this simran on my own, but was basically just japping Vaheguru and breathing in and out. And it felt like nothing at all.

Then I took amrit, and this is what happened. I was scared through the whole thing and couldn't wait for it to end... because it was hours long and I was so nervous. (I know, maybe there's some tough, fearless people out there but wasn't me) So I assure you my mind was on just staying in the right position and stuff and not fall over. There was no thinking, "oh now, in front of the Panj, I'm going to stop and do Naam abiyaas." Lol, last thought from my mind. 

And at the end, where the Panj pushed my head so I would bend forward and touch the ground to matatek to Guruji, something happened. As soon as my forehead touched the floor, Naam abiyaas was coming out of me. And I mean so intense and so loud and so fast that it took over an hour, maybe 2 hours to calm that energy down. There were abiyaasi's there to help us all calm the energy down but it took a long time. It wasn't something I was doing at all. It's something that gets imparted into you. And it will knock you out of yourself. I really don't know what happened. It hit like a bolt of lightning. And then at some point I landed. I don't even know how I was walking around. Because this thing was just happening to me.


~bhul chak maaf


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## carolineislands (Mar 24, 2008)

> The door to liberation is the dasm duar. Naam Japna is the engine of our spiritual practice because the Naam Gurmatara we are given has the power to clean our subtle energy channels and pierce through the barriers in our 6 chakras allowing the energy to ascend and unlock the tenth gate, crown chakra. Only rehitvaan Gursikh Panj Piare who are Naam abiyaasi's can impart to someone the technique of Naam drirh at amrit sinchaar. No one but Panj Piare can impart this technique.​




So is it fair to assume that nobody achieved this level of consciousness before the establishment of the first Khalsa?
​


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## carolineislands (Mar 24, 2008)

Is Guruji capable of imparting Naam to whom he pleases?  I thought this was something that came from inside and not outside and was only imparted to us by the Guru's grace.

Kind of like this:  YouTube - What is Guru?

Thanks for your patience


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## svea00 (Mar 24, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> svea00, your English is beautiful and I understood you quite well.




Thank you :2::shy:, I don´t deserve this.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 24, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> I like what Guruka Singh says about it when he says bana is something you should do for yourself, not for others.  It is a reflection of your commitment, not to distinguish yourself.





ok, just a couple of things i have to mention...  actually, one very important aspect of bana is that we are SUPPOSED to stand out in a crowd.  we are supposed to be readily recognized so people can find us for assistance.  we are never allowed to hide from danger or anything else, we must stand and face every injustice.   our bana makes us equals, makes us kings and queens.  in Guru ji's time, only rulers could wear Turbans.  only certain castes could carry weapons.  Guru ji gave EVERY Sikh a turban, a crown, making us ALL rulers.   and making us all equals.  (this really upset the mughals, by the way! lol...)

so in a way, it is for others as well as for us. 


also, one thing no one has mentioned in this thread is the concept of Miri/Piri - Sant/Saphai.  if we ONLY focus on the exterior, we're missing half of the equation.  however, the opposite is also true.  if we ONLY focus on "being sikh on the inside" (as many people like to say), we're also missing half of what it means to be Sikh.

just a thought.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 24, 2008)

> Interesting, that the very Panj Piare that instruct you not to think of anyone except the Gurus as your savior are now being presented as the Guru. Wouldn't that be thinking of them as your savior?
> :hmm:
> For me the point of the OP is to be careful not to let legalism overtake us. Like bureauocracy, when the rule becomes more important that the purpose for which it was instituted, we have strayed off the path.


The Panj Piare are Guruji's own saroop. The Panj Piare_ is_ Guru. When Dasam Pita Ji invested Gurgaddhi into Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he also invested it into Panj Piare and the Khalsa Panth. You mention legalism and rules as straying off the path. Yet Gurbani is not manmade legalism and rules, its Guruji's hukam. When we stray from Guruji's hukam, we are off Guruji's path. Dasam Pita Ji did not include his own bani into Shabad Guru Ji. But it is still bani. And it is still the Panthic tradition. And there are still supportive sources to corroborate what Dasam Pita Ji said about the Khalsa. The Panj Piare was invested with Guruship when Guruji selected the 5 beloved ones and Himself bowed down to them. It's not a bureaucracy, it's a path with pyaar! Panj Piare make corporate decisions for the Panth.

Those rules you're talking about, that you say is "legalism" that overtakes us, is that the Rehit Maryada you're refering to? The code of conduct given to all amritdhari Sikhs? Because if your challenging the legitimacy of Sikh institutions such as the Panj Piare, the Khalsa, the Rehit Maryada, then you're also challenging the basis for Gurgaddhi of Shabad Guru Ji, since Shabad Guru was invested at the same time as Panj Piare. And as I said before, the bani of Satguru Gobind Singh Ji was not included in Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So what do you base you belief in Gurgaddhi of Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji on? 

Without some authoritative basis for definitions of Gurmat, no one can establish anything. So when some dedhari Indian government sponsored Hindutva cult comes along and says they have Sikh Satguru Ji... How do we prove they're not right and we should not all go join their cult? If Sikhs can't use authoritative definitions for fear of being legalistic... then nothing at all is clear about Sikhism. And anyone can say anything.



> [SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]a. The Guru Panth (Panth's status of Guruhood) means the whole body of committed baptised (Amritdhari) Sikhs. This body was fostered by all the ten Gurus and the tenth Guru gave it its final shape and invested it with Guruhood.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=-1]Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India[/SIZE]
> [/SIZE][/SIZE]


 

"Khalsa mero roop hai khaas. 
The Khalsa is my complete image ​ 
Khalse maih hau karo nivaas. 
I dwell in the khalsa ​ 
~Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji​


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## carolineislands (Mar 24, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> ok, just a couple of things i have to mention...  actually, one very important aspect of bana is that we are SUPPOSED to stand out in a crowd.  we are supposed to be readily recognized so people can find us for assistance.  we are never allowed to hide from danger or anything else, we must stand and face every injustice.   our bana makes us equals, makes us kings and queens.  in Guru ji's time, only rulers could wear Turbans.  only certain castes could carry weapons.  Guru ji gave EVERY Sikh a turban, a crown, making us ALL rulers.   and making us all equals.  (this really upset the mughals, by the way! lol...)
> 
> so in a way, it is for others as well as for us.
> 
> ...



Thank you!  This was a very good explanation.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 24, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> [/left]
> 
> Interesting, that the very Panj Piare that instruct you not to think of anyone except the Gurus as your savior are now being presented as the Guru.  Wouldn't that be thinking of them as your savior?




how could the panj piare administer Amrit to Guru Gobind Singh ji if they were simply five men?  they are given the AUTHORITY of Guru ji, when administering amrit.  after the conclusion of the amrit sanchar they go back to being  regular (or rather extraordinary )  Gursikhs.


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## carolineislands (Mar 24, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa,
Are the Panj Piare human beings?  Do they instruct you not to take any as savior other than the Gurus?  How, then, can you say they ARE Guru?  Doesn't that mean you are taking them as savior, exactly as they instructed you not to?

This is my question.

My opinions about legalism are just my own and we will not agree on that.  But I would appreciate if you had an answer to the above question.

Thank you Respectfully,

caroline


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## carolineislands (Mar 24, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> how could the panj piare administer Amrit to Guru Gobind Singh ji if they were simply five men?  they are given the AUTHORITY of Guru ji, when administering amrit.  after the conclusion of the amrit sanchar they go back to being  regular (or rather extraordinary )  Gursikhs.



I understand this action as a symbol of humility and oneness.   No one is high or low.  There are many examples of royal, or holy teachers, leaders, prophets etc, serving people who would be considered lower than them as a symbol of proper humility and equality.  Just like the 4 doors on the Golden Temple and the sharing of food in the gurdwara.     (I won't mention the examples from other religions but you know what I'm thinking anyway. )

That's how I understand it.  Not that they were transformed to deities or Guru.


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## carolineislands (Mar 24, 2008)

I am not questioning the legitimacy of the panj piare, I am questioning what sounded to me like an implication of their deity.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 24, 2008)

> The door to liberation is the dasm duar. Naam Japna is the engine of our spiritual practice because the Naam Gurmatara we are given has the power to clean our subtle energy channels and pierce through the barriers in our 6 chakras allowing the energy to ascend and unlock the tenth gate, crown chakra. Only rehitvaan Gursikh Panj Piare who are Naam abiyaasi's can impart to someone the technique of Naam drirh at amrit sinchaar. No one but Panj Piare can impart this technique.
> 
> 
> So is it fair to assume that nobody achieved this level of consciousness before the establishment of the first Khalsa?​


 
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਵੇਦੁ ਪੜੈ ਵਾਦੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥ 
brehamaa vaedh parrai vaadh vakhaanai ||
Brahma studied the Vedas, but these lead only to debates and disputes.​ 
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਤਾਮਸੁ ਆਪੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥ 
anthar thaamas aap n pashhaanai ||
He is filled with darkness; he does not understand himself.​

ਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਏ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥੧॥ 
thaa prabh paaeae gur sabadh vakhaanai ||1||
And yet, if he chants the Word of the Guru's Shabad, he finds God. ||1||​

ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਉ ਫਿਰਿ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਖਾਇ ॥ 
gur saevaa karo fir kaal n khaae ||
So serve the Guru, and you shall not be consumed by death.
~SGGS Ji p. 231​ 


ਐਸੀ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਇਕ ਰਾਮਿ ਉਪਾਈ ॥ 
aisee eisathree eik raam oupaaee ||
Such is Maya, the woman, which the One Lord has created.​ 
ਉਨਿ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਖਾਇਆ ਹਮ ਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਖੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
oun sabh jag khaaeiaa ham gur raakhae maerae bhaaee || rehaao ||
She is devouring the whole world, but the Guru has saved me, O my Siblings of Destiny. ||Pause||​ 
ਪਾਇ ਠਗਉਲੀ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਜੋਹਿਆ ॥ 
paae thagoulee sabh jag johiaa ||
Administering her poisons, she has overcome the whole world.​ 
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਮੋਹਿਆ ॥ 
brehamaa bisan mehaadhaeo mohiaa ||
She has bewitched Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.​ 
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਗੇ ਸੇ ਸੋਹਿਆ ॥੨॥ 
guramukh naam lagae sae sohiaa ||2||
Only those Gurmukhs who are attuned to the Naam are blessed. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 394​ 


ਈਸਰੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਸੇਵਦੇ ਅੰਤੁ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਨ ਲਹੀਆ ॥ 
eesar brehamaa saevadhae anth thinhee n leheeaa ||
Those who serve Shiva and Brahma do not find the limits of the Lord.​ 
ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਅਲਖੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਗਟੀਆ ॥ 
nirabho nirankaar alakh hai guramukh pragatteeaa ||
The Fearless, Formless Lord is unseen and invisible; He is revealed only to the Gurmukh.
~SGGS Ji p. 516​ 



> Is Guruji capable of imparting Naam to whom he pleases? I thought this was something that came from inside and not outside and was only imparted to us by the Guru's grace.
> 
> Kind of like this: YouTube - What is Guru?
> 
> Thanks for your patience


 
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਿਖ ਕਉ ਨਾਮ ਧਨੁ ਦੇਇ ॥ 
sathigur sikh ko naam dhhan dhaee ||
The True Guru gives His Sikh the wealth of the Naam.
~SGGS Ji p. 286​ 


The Panj Piare are Guruji's sargun saroop. So when the Panj impart Naam to us, it's Guruji who does this. No one can get it any other way since Guruji doesn't have a dedhari form any longer. If it came from the inside and not the outside it would already be ours, how could it be implanted in you? It's like shaktipat. It comes from Guru.


ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਿੜਾਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਇਆ ॥ 
gur poorai har naam dhirraaeiaa jin vichahu bharam chukaaeiaa ||
The Perfect Guru has implanted the Lord's Name within me; it has dispelled my doubts from within.​ 
ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਗਾਇ ਕਰਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਮਗੁ ਦੇਖਾਇਆ ॥ 
raam naam har keerath gaae kar chaanan mag dhaekhaaeiaa ||
Singing the Kirtan of the Praises of the Lord's Name, the Lord's path is illuminated and shown to His Sikhs.
~SGGS Ji p. 1424​


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## carolineislands (Mar 24, 2008)

Interesting.  Intermediaries.  Like Sikh priests passing out the body of Christ.  

Wow.  There are so many different philosophies the Sikh community.  

Thank you for your explanation.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 24, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> That's how I understand it.  Not that they were transformed to deities or Guru.



i don't think of it in terms of transformation or deification...   they have the authority of Guru, they speak for Guru, they act for Guru, and they give us Guru's Amrit and Naam dhrir (infusion).


however, when they walk out the door of the Darbar Sahib after the Amrit Sanchar is over, they become individuals again and that authority is gone.

at least this is my understanding.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 24, 2008)

> *Are the Panj Piare human beings? Do they instruct you not to take any as savior other than the Gurus? How, then, can you say they ARE Guru? Doesn't that mean you are taking them as savior, exactly as they instructed you not to?*
> 
> This is my question.
> 
> ...





> I am not questioning the legitimacy of the panj piare,* I am questioning what sounded to me like an implication of their deity.*





> Originally Posted by *jasleen_kaur*
> 
> 
> _how could the panj piare administer Amrit to Guru Gobind Singh ji if they were simply five men? they are given the AUTHORITY of Guru ji, when administering amrit. after the conclusion of the amrit sanchar they go back to being regular (or rather extraordinary ) Gursikhs._
> ...


I have answered your question a few times now. 

Guruka Singh Khalsa is a very nice man, but he's not exactly sharing mainstream Sikh teaching. Take the best of what you find here. Ultimately you have to follow a path of your own choosing. And that is perfectly fine. I am happy to try and answer any question you ask, and you don't even have to agree. (Definitely question what I say, I'm a morakh!) You're starting to wear kara and want to tie dastaar. I applaud you and hope you dive very deeply into Sikhi. 3HO people do a lot of good things as a Jatha. They were friends of Bhai Fauja Singh Shaheed at a time when being a friend was dangerous. I respect that. 




> "So Guru gives you a secret, he gives you a formula. And that is, for you, a thing you need individually and personally to connect yourself to that touchstone within yourself. And that thing is unique for each person. And that thing is what we call Naam. So people who are rigid in saying, "this is the only mantra or Naam is this and Naam is not that... It's a state of being. It's a frequency. It's an experience. It's deep. It's universal. No one owns it. It doesn't belong to this religion or that religion. It's much deeper than that." -Guruka Singh Khalsa


According to this rather loose definition of Naam *ਨਾਮੁ* (which literally means God's Name), it's a thing unique for each person, it's univeral, it doesn't belong to this or that religion. And it's only people being "rigid" who say "this is the only mantra...no one owns it..." 

Well the deciding factor for a Sikh isn't anyones or even his own opinion, but what is Gurmat (mind and intention of the Guru). And unequivocally Gurbani is Gurmat. And if Gurbani says Naam is chanting the Name of the Lord, no other definition could be there. No matter if somebody had 20 million fantastic experiences and claimed to be a brahmgyani and fireworks were going off... he could not persuade a single Sikh to believe against Gurbani. Because Sikhism is about submission to a Satguru. 

Even Harbhajan Singh Yogi. He was a Tantric yoga master. Did he write instructions about how to do yoga that 3HO follw? Or did he say, do it any way you like, whatever works and is unique to you is Tantric yoga and you can call yourself a Master? Last I checked, Kundalini Research Institute has very definite guidelines for their yoga practices and kundalini teacher training courses. Guruka Singh Khalsa is saying Naam is very loosely defined and individual and unique and no one has a monopoly on what it means. It can mean whatever an individual wants it to mean... But he wouldn't pass certification as a Kundalini yoga instructor with the 3HO seal if he didn't conform his yoga teachings and definitions to precisely what Yogi Bhajan and Sikh Dharma teach. 

Is Yogi Bhajan more of a Master than Guru's bani?



ਸੁਣਹਿ ਵਖਾਣਹਿ ਜੇਤੜੇ ਹਉ ਤਿਨ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੈ ਜਾਉ ॥ 
sunehi vakhaanehi jaetharrae ho thin balihaarai jaao ||
I am a sacrifice to those who hear and chant the True Name.
~SGGS Ji p. 16​ 

ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਤੂ ਜਮੁ ਡਰਪੈ ਦੁਖ ਭਾਗੁ ॥ 
har jap naam dhhiaae thoo jam ddarapai dhukh bhaag ||
Chant and meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Lord; death will be afraid of you, and suffering shall depart.
~SGGS Ji p. 57​ 

ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਚੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਲਧੀ ਭਾਲਿ ॥ 
vaahu vaahu baanee sach hai guramukh ladhhee bhaal ||
Waaho! Waaho! is the Bani of the True Word. Searching, the Gurmukhs have found it.​ 
ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਸਬਦੇ ਉਚਰੈ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ 
vaahu vaahu sabadhae oucharai vaahu vaahu hiradhai naal ||
Waaho! Waaho! They chant the Word of the Shabad. Waaho! Waaho! They enshrine it in their hearts.
~SGGS Ji p. 514​ 

ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥੮॥ 
sath saach sree nivaas aadh purakh sadhaa thuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo ||3||8||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||3||8||​ 
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥ 
sathiguroo sathiguroo sathigur gubindh jeeo ||
The True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself.
~SGGS Ji p. 1403​ 

Forgive my assumption, but a lot of converts bring some prior religious teaching into Sikhism. Perhaps I'm mistaken. But the terminology of _*"legalism"*_ is really an artifact of Christianity and used by those who challenge either their own Church traditions or even Judaism based on biblical passages where Jesus corrected corrupt religious leaders as legalistic and unspiritual. Protestant Christians get so annoyed over a concept like praying to the Virgin Mary, because that implied Catholic Christians were going against the Bible to make her a _*deity.*_

When you said, *"Are the Panj Piare human beings?"* I remembered if I shared something about any other religious teacher, my family would say in accusatory tone: "are they human beings?" It wasn't a question. The implication was only Jesus is God. They are human, they are fallible and make mistakes. Only Jesus is infallible. No disciples, no Church, no Popes, no doctrine could stand between an individual's interpretation and experience... and Jesus. But it doesn't translate to Sikhism.

Sikh teaching is somewhat different. And I suppose it's confusing because people talk about 10 Guru's. But, it isn't 10 Guru's, it's 1 Guru in 10 physical forms. All the 10 Guru's and the 11th Shabad Guru Ji Maharaaj have the same Jyot. The Shabad Jyot passed from one form to another like transmission. And when Guru passed Gurgaddhi (Guruship) to the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he also passed Gurgaddhi to the 5 beloved ones, and also to the Panthic body of the Khalsa (Guru Panth). This is why Sarbat Khalsa can be convened over difficult matters. Because the Sarbat Khalsa, like the Panj Piare has the Guruship. They have the right to pass Gurmattas (declarations of Guru's intention). 

Now as Jasleen Kaur Ji pointed out, an ordinary Singh goes for Panj Piara seva. But when the 5 are together, and only for the time they act as the 5 beloved ones, they have the transmission, they are Guru's sargun (perceivable) saroop (form). The moment the Singh comes out of Panj Piara seva, he is no longer a Panj Piara, but only an ordinary Singh. Guru Panth plus Guru Granth and Guruship of the Panj Piares _is_ mainstream Sikh teaching. Naam


~Please forgive my mistakes and assumptions


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 24, 2008)

> Interesting. Intermediaries. Like Sikh priests passing out the body of Christ.
> 
> Wow. There are so many different philosophies the Sikh community.
> 
> Thank you for your explanation.


No, lol. Forgive that I'm not doing a better job of explaining. I think maybe we need a brahmgyani here. I'm doing my best but I'm not one.

Okay, let me try this. The Panj Piare are NOT Sikh priests. they don't mediate on our behalf or plead to Guru as our advocates. Please, try for a bit to empty your mind of previous Christian theological conditioning. because I sincerely believe your mistaking a whole cultural context. Guruji is NOT like Christ. He is not an avatar or an incarnation of God. And the Sikh religion is not like the Catholic religion.

It is not a philosophy of the Sikh community that Sikh priests are intermediaries. We may disagree on a hundred other things, but on this we agree... It is mainstream Sikh belief that the 5 beloved khalsas were elevated to the status of Guru Panth. It is not them individually or as a person elevated to status of Godhood. But as the Panj they have the authority and saroop of Guru to decide in temporal matters. When Akal Takht delivers a hukamnama for the Sikh Panth, it's decided by Panj Piare.

Try and understand this according to the Punjabi history as well, not Christian teachings which look harshly at "legalism" and the Jewish sanhedrin as corrupt unspiritual institutions which persecuted Christ. Try to understand how hard it was for the Sikh community to deal with the murder of a Guru and all his surviving sons and decide who would take His place? How does a community decide temporal matters of state and faith? 

All these traditions, rehitnamay, granths have been preserved after the near destruction of the Sikh community. That's why Sikh scholars are still finding Guru's bani and compilations and rehitnamay and debating their authenticity before Akal Takht. Some rehitnamay confirm traditions which existed only by word of mouth because everyone who knew had been killed. Things like sarbloh rehit, shakti of sarbloh, Sarbloh Akal are still not well-known that had formerly been purataan traditional practices.

This isn't like bad "legalists" persecuting "nice" spiritual guys who want to do what feels best. This is more like a traumatized community trying to preserve it's identity under crisis. The Indian government is trying very hard to infiltrate the Sikh Nation to assert political control over Punjab. BJP-RSS is well-funded. They are fascist nationalists who work in concert with Congress Party against who they feel are enemies of India: Christians, Muslims, Khalistani Sikhs. They fund groups like Nirankaris, Radhasoamis, Naamdharis, and thousands of babas, dedhari guru cults and deras with the express political aim to redefine Sikh religion and bring it into conformity with radical Hindutva. This is Kalyug. It is a spiritual war. Are we ready to sacrifice? 

YouTube - The Making of a Muslim Terrorist

YouTube - Shaheeds Of 1978

YouTube - 1984 teri yaad

YouTube - The Jathedar created by Khalsaforce.net

YouTube - Shaheed Kamaljeet Singh


Sikh religion loves and honors its shaheeds! A lot can be said about differing opinions whether its Naam abiyaas, keski rehit, strictness, legalism, lack of open-mindedness, etc. But the Akhand Kirtani Jatha more than paid a price in blood, torture and shaheedi for the Sikh Panth. And that says something about strict rehit Gursikh practices and points of contention. AKJ has left a legacy of honor forever that can never be denied to the Jatha. It is my ardaas we could all have such great spiritual jeevans as the Shaheed Singhs/Singhnia.

~Please forgive my foolishness


*DHAN DHAN SHAHEEDI!*​


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## carolineislands (Mar 25, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa,

Thank you so much for your informative and insightful post.  It helped me a lot, although the brutality of humans towards each other is something I have never been able to really get my mind around.  Thanks for the video links as well.  What you are saying makes quite a bit more sense to me now, as does some of the things I tend to perceive as legalism.

Thank You!

caroline


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## Astroboy (Mar 25, 2008)

The following controversial post by Balbir Singh had me thinking if he is a Sikh, RSS, Namdhari, Nirankari or Radha Soami or own self-styled Guru. 
Was his intention to create confusion or meant to educate :-

*Who told them that their Guru needs clothing?*


*Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!*
*Dear all!*

*Sikhs offer their Guru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Rumaalaas. Who told them that their Guru needs clothing?*
*Please explain.*

*Balbir Singh*

He adds on to ask questions and make statements like:

May I ask if offering Rumaalaa is a technique of falling in love with the Guru? Did He ask for it once? Is this a universal technique? 

Parents also feel that the child needs clothing. They should protect him. This is the common sense.
In my view Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is not our child nor the Guru is sensitive toward climatic hazards.
The True Guru is singing about people who offer clothing to wear.

ਅਨਿਕ ਬਸਤ੍ਰ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਪਹਿਰਾਇਆ ॥ 
अनिक बसत्र सुंदर पहिराइआ ॥
"anik bastar sundar pehraa-i-aa."
Many robes are decoratively worn.

ਜਿਉ ਡਰਨਾ ਖੇਤ ਮਾਹਿ ਡਰਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ 
जिउ डरना खेत माहि डराइआ ॥२॥
"ji-o darnaa khayt maahi daraa-i-aa. ||2|| SGGS 190-17 
Like scaring in the field are frightened.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 25, 2008)

Guru Arjun Sahib put the Adi Granth on his own bed, with clean blankets, and slept on the floor.   what other proof does one need?


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## spnadmin (Mar 25, 2008)

NanJap ji, Jasleen ji,


In this instance simple logic will work against your understanding what is going on. I often wonder myself.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 25, 2008)

it's not a matter of logic, it's a matter of respect.

do we NEED to put fancy rumalla  probably not.  so why do we do it?  to show our love and respect for our Guru ji.

i really don't see the point in over-thinking things like this.  who does it harm if we wish to show respect to our great teacher?  if others feel comfortable treating Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as they would any other book, that's their wish.  personally, i'd prefer to follow the example set my my Guru.


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## spnadmin (Mar 25, 2008)

Jasleen ji

Read my comment again. There may be another meaning to it.


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## carolineislands (Mar 25, 2008)

While searching one of the links on this page for literature about Sikh history I found a link to a study by Harjot Oberoi called "The Construction of Religious Boundaries."  The reference read like the thesis of the study was that present day mainstream Sikh theology (for lack of better word) was brought about as a sort of British conspiracy to fragment India and that it ended up creating a sort of doctrine that was never intended by the founders of Sikhism.  It was pretty weird -- it seems to present the conflicts in the 80s as some sort of Sikh "terrorism."  

Is this book part of the propaganda of the group that was brought up earlier?  

And what about this accusation of Sikh "terrorism?"  I watched a video a week or so ago of a news report in Canada that called the Khalistan groups a "terrorist organization."  

It was awful!


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 25, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> While searching one of the links on this page for literature about Sikh history I found a link to a study by Harjot Oberoi called "The Construction of Religious Boundaries."  The reference read like the thesis of the study was that present day mainstream Sikh theology (for lack of better word) was brought about as a sort of British conspiracy to fragment India and that it ended up creating a sort of doctrine that was never intended by the founders of Sikhism.  It was pretty weird -- it seems to present the conflicts in the 80s as some sort of Sikh "terrorism."
> 
> Is this book part of the propaganda of the group that was brought up earlier?
> 
> ...



here's a review of the book:
Critical Reading of Harjot Oberoi's: The Construction of Religious Boundaries

"Harjot Oberoi’s _The Construction of Religious Boundaries: Culture, Identity and Diversity in the Sikh Tradition_3 is replete with lies, deception and manipulation of historical information"


doesn't sound terribly well regarded to me.  

as far as Sikh Millitancy in the 80's and 90's, that is a whole separate topic, filled with arguments from all sides. 

if you want to know the truth about Sikh militancy, read "Fighting for Faith and Nation".  it provides an unbiased perspective, a collection of interviews with militants forced to live abroad, as well as presenting samples from news media and books about the GOI's side of the story, and balanced out with quotes from SGGS and information on the history of Sikhism.   i sincerely believe that after reading this book, even if they do not agree with the ideology of a separate Sikh nation, anyone will understand the necessity of the struggle in Punjab.


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## Astroboy (Mar 26, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> NanJap ji, Jasleen ji,
> 
> 
> In this instance simple logic will work against your understanding what is going on. I often wonder myself.


 

This thread is one example of the simple logic ?
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/18820-what-is-gurdwaaraa.html


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## spnadmin (Mar 26, 2008)

Nam Jap ji

Same answer -- I was not referring to the thread.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 26, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Nam Jap ji
> 
> Same answer -- I was not referring to the thread.



i'm sorry for being so presumptuous, but i'm very stupid and do not understand all of your hidden/double meanings.

can you explain in simple language what you wish to convey so that i may more clearly understand?

i'm sorry if this is too much to ask.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 26, 2008)

I too did not get the mysterious part about logic.  
Jasleen Kaur ji you jinxed me! After reading, " i'm very stupid and do not understand all of your hidden/double meanings." I went to the linked thread, read every post and didn't get any of it either ;( 

I agree with Naamjap ji that certain groups do spread disinformation on the internet about Sikh religion who act in collaboration with Indian government.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 26, 2008)

> While searching one of the links on this page for literature about Sikh history I found a link to a study by Harjot Oberoi called "The Construction of Religious Boundaries." The reference read like the thesis of the study was that present day mainstream Sikh theology (for lack of better word) was brought about as a sort of British conspiracy to fragment India and that it ended up creating a sort of doctrine that was never intended by the founders of Sikhism. It was pretty weird -- it seems to present the conflicts in the 80s as some sort of Sikh "terrorism."
> 
> Is this book part of the propaganda of the group that was brought up earlier?
> 
> ...


Do you think one day Carolineislands ji will ask us a _simple_ question?


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 26, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Do you think one day Carolineislands ji will ask us a _simple_ question?



simple questions are boring. :wink:

the more one questions, the more one learns.  we're all students, even by answering questions, we learn more ourselves!


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 26, 2008)

> I watched a video a week or so ago of a news report in Canada that called the Khalistan groups a "terrorist organization."



i totally missed the CANADA part...

carolineislands ji...  please keep in mind that the Canadian media has a long history of insulting and degrading Sikh immigrants to Canada.  for all that the country supposedly espouses "multiculturalism", i have heard more "fit in or go home" comments from their media and in comments on media sites than from any other country.   they've consistently linked Sikhs with terrorism, despite the fact that they have no proof, and this has obviously influenced the minds of many canadians against Sikhs.

one Canadian radio commentator who is on the Olympic Committee made a comment calling the turban a "diaper", and not only was he not chastised by the government owned radio station, he was also allowed to stay on the committee!   what kind of message does that send?


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## Astroboy (Mar 26, 2008)

Harjas Ji,

The personal experience you talked about during the Amrit Ceremony ?  There's another person saying something similar in the latest post of this thread :Why I Chose Sikhism" - here's the link *:- )*

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/17212-why-i-chose-sikhism-2.html#post75578


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 26, 2008)

> The personal experience you talked about during the Amrit Ceremony ? There's another person saying something similar in the latest post of this thread


I know Jagjeet Kaur ji and Jagdish Singh ji. Bhai Jagdish Singh did a lot of Panj Piara seva with Bhai Jeevan Singh. The Bhai Manmohan Singh ji mentioned in her article was also one of the Panj Piaras at my amrit sinchaar. I am sorry to say he has died this year.


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## carolineislands (Mar 26, 2008)

Sigh...

Sometimes it seems like the same struggles between people just keep playing themselves out over and over and over again.  I am trying to learn about the times of Guru Nanak and the context of his writings and the birth of Sikhi and I find Muslims chopping of heads of Hindus, Hindus ritually raping young girls and fighting against Muslims, etc..  Then time goes on, passes, battles, Khalsa, battles, wars... then massacres at the Golden Temple, wars, Muslims, Hindus, warring.. Partition, 1984, today in Canada... hate back and forth, trainloads of dead bodies etc etc etc...  

Is this just the condition of humanity and destined to remain in chaos?  How can millions of people hear Gurujis message, take it to their heart and read it every day and still the situation remains the same?  Are we keeping Sikhi too much in the theoretical instead of applying it, or are the forces of chaos and maya just so strong that humanities condition can never change?

Why are we STILL fighting over religion?  Guru Nanak lived 500 years ago and brought the message that we all worship the same God, and nowadays millions of people believe that.  And yet million/billions more believe in peace and don't embrace a religion at all.

And yet, what?  Humans are still chopping off each other heads to prove 'my God is better than your God' Hindustan, Khalistan, Pakistan, Iraq, ....  Not to mention the things they do to their own fellow believers -- mutilate children's genitals, preists gang raping little girls in the name of their gods, cutting off people's hands and feet, burying them up to their necks and smashing their skulls with rocks, dropping bombs on whole communities....

What is wrong with us?  Really... and if we are the ones who understand that God is one and beyond all this insanity, what can we do to change any of it?

I feel like praying, "Oh my Guru, why doesn't anybody listen?"

Is this just the condition of humanity and the only change we can really make is within our own hearts?  Or do we really have hope for an enlightened peaceful world one day.

My other question is, isn't someone going to have to lay down the sword first?


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## carolineislands (Mar 26, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Do you think one day Carolineislands ji will ask us a _simple_ question?


Sorry.

I have to beg all of your forgiveness.  I'm on a spirit quest and have reached the part that feels like the first few steps of Spring cleaning when you have dragged everything out of the closets and drawers, pulled down the curtains and thrown them in the wash and everything is in chaos.  It gets so much worse before it gets better.



Patience... PLEASE.  :2:


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## spnadmin (Mar 26, 2008)

Carolineislands ji

I think Harjas is just nudging you a little bit with a smile. Encouragement. Not criticism or anything like that.  You can smile. S'OK


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 26, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> Sigh...
> 
> Sometimes it seems like the same struggles between people just keep playing themselves out over and over and over again.  I am trying to learn about the times of Guru Nanak and the context of his writings and the birth of Sikhi and I find Muslims chopping of heads of Hindus, Hindus ritually raping young girls and fighting against Muslims, etc..  Then time goes on, passes, battles, Khalsa, battles, wars... then massacres at the Golden Temple, wars, Muslims, Hindus, warring.. Partition, 1984, today in Canada... hate back and forth, trainloads of dead bodies etc etc etc...
> 
> ...



try to look at it in the context of history, of the culture of india.  india used to be many separate kingdoms, constantly struggling against their neighbors for a bit more land or a bit more water. first came mughal invasion and opression.  after that there was the greatest time of peace and prosperity in Punjab's history...  under a Sikh king.  then came british exploitation and oppression.   the british practiced divide and rule, playing on the fears, misunderstanding, and long standing fueds between factions of indian society.  Winston Chruchill almost single handedly engineered partition (with the help of Mahatma Gandhi's ambivalence) out of spite for loosing india to the indians!  i highly recommend reading "Indian Summer" for more details on just how much the british created and encouraged communal tension in india before and during partition.  moving forward, Sikhs have been marginalized by the government of india ever since the hindu dominated Congress party started running the country.  all of the country's early major political figures have expressed their disgust or dislike of the Sikhs.  since partition, Sikh and Punjabi history are filled with insults, attacks, and massacres by the GOI.   did you know that in the early 1980's, the GOI declared ALL Amritdhari Sikhs to be a threat to Indian national security?   this kind of blatant oppression is why the struggle for Khalistan is necessary.  

should someone put down the sword?  yes, the Indian Government should.  because as long as there is oppression, a Sikh must fight.  we may tolerate the insult for a while (Guru Gobind Singh allowed three arrows to be fired at him before he shot back), but if it continues, we must fight back.  it's our dharam, our sacred duty.  we are to be both saint and warrior.

i read an interview with a sikh "militant", and when asked what the militants will do when they achieve Khalistan...  he said they will liberate Bosnia, Tibet, and anyone else who is being oppressed.   it's simply our duty.

ਸਲੋਕ  ਕਬੀਰ  ॥ 
सलोक कबीर ॥ 
Salok Kabīr. 
Shalok, Kabeer: 

ਗਗਨ  ਦਮਾਮਾ  ਬਾਜਿਓ  ਪਰਿਓ  ਨੀਸਾਨੈ  ਘਾਉ  ॥ 
गगन दमामा बाजिओ परिओ नीसानै घाउ ॥ 
Gagan ḏamāmā bāji*o pari*o nīsānai gẖā*o. 
The battle-drum beats in the sky of the mind; aim is taken, and the wound is inflicted. 

ਖੇਤੁ  ਜੁ  ਮਾਂਡਿਓ  ਸੂਰਮਾ  ਅਬ  ਜੂਝਨ  ਕੋ  ਦਾਉ  ॥੧॥ 
खेतु जु मांडिओ सूरमा अब जूझन को दाउ ॥१॥ 
Kẖėṯ jo māŉdi*o sūrmā ab jūjẖan ko ḏā*o. ||1|| 
The spiritual warriors enter the field of battle; now is the time to fight! ||1|| 

ਸੂਰਾ  ਸੋ  ਪਹਿਚਾਨੀਐ  ਜੁ  ਲਰੈ  ਦੀਨ  ਕੇ  ਹੇਤ  ॥ 
सूरा सो पहिचानीऐ जु लरै दीन के हेत ॥ 
Sūrā so pahicẖānī*ai jo larai ḏīn kė hėṯ. 
He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defense of religion. 

ਪੁਰਜਾ  ਪੁਰਜਾ  ਕਟਿ  ਮਰੈ  ਕਬਹੂ  ਨ  ਛਾਡੈ  ਖੇਤੁ  ॥੨॥੨॥ 
पुरजा पुरजा कटि मरै कबहू न छाडै खेतु ॥२॥२॥ 
Purjā purjā kat marai kabhū na cẖẖādai kẖėṯ. ||2||2|| 
He may be cut apart, piece by piece, but he never leaves the field of battle. ||2||2||


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## carolineislands (Mar 26, 2008)

Why do the Hindus want to get rid of the Sikhs?  Strategic position of Punjab?  How are Sikhs a threat to them, if at all?

I watched a movie called maya day before last and afterwards did some research on some of the practices still being done in Hinduism.  Is SICKENING.

I am really ignorant about India politics and history/culture etc.  I am an anthropologist but my area of study was Afro-Caribbean cultures and since then I've worked almost solely in Haiti.  

So it seems like there have been forces out to destroy Sikhs ever since Guru Gobind Singh first took up the sword?  

I wonder why people don't talk more about this?


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 26, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> Why do the Hindus want to get rid of the Sikhs?  Strategic position of Punjab?  How are Sikhs a threat to them, if at all?
> 
> I watched a movie called maya day before last and afterwards did some research on some of the practices still being done in Hinduism.  Is SICKENING.
> 
> ...



actually, it started even before that...  Guru Arjun Sahib was our first Guru to die for his faith.  

there are many reasons, but no good reasons.  one is the Hindutva movement, who wish to make India into Hindustan, a purely Hindu country.  they HATE christians and muslims, and have been involved in rapes, tortures, murders, and organized riots which killed tens of thousands.  they will accept Sikhs only if Sikhs will agree to be considered Hindu.  they want to deny us our very identity.   they know that if we remain Sikh, if we remain KHALSA, we will not stand by as they "cleanse" India as the Nazis they take their inspiration did in Europe.

another is that Punjab is strategically important, with major rivers, major hydroelectric power plants, and the most fertile land in India.  it's called the "bread basket" of India.  the indian government re-routes the rivers to other states, stealing water from punjabi farmers and causing drought and famine in punjab.  there has been an epidemic of farmer suicides from this practice.  punjab produces clean, hydroelectric electricity for four states and new delhi...  not a volt of it goes to punjab.  instead, punjab is forced to buy COAL from other states to make it's own power.  if punjab has any autonomy at all, the indian government fears it will loose all of these resources.

Sikhs were declared a "martial race" by the british, something which has stuck.  a disproportionate amount of Sikhs are in the Indian military, and have given their lives for their country since the freedom movement.  so the idea that Sikhs want their own identity separate from Hindus is more threatening, because Sikhs are seen as a military threat.  they seem to think that if Sikhs have even a small amount of power, we'll take over the country or something.

honestly, i don't think there's any one clear reason Sikhs are so hated.  Patel said that Sikhs "disgusted" him.  this was a major figure in the freedom movement, a man who is venerated in India.  during partition, he forced a disarming of Sikhs in Punjab, leading to even more slaughter by Muslims.  why would he do that except to harm Sikhs?  he even tried to ban the Kirpan!

watch any indian film and you'll see the Sikh is always portrayed as a bumbling idiot or a villian (think of the stereotypes African Americans and Latinos have struggled with in American film).  every hindu, from childhood, is inundated with Sikh jokes, showing Sikhs as idiots.  ask any indian hindu if he knows a Sikh joke and you'll see what i mean.  
why is this?  why is it necessary?  why is any group oppressed?  usually out of fear.

India is doing to Sikhs what America has done to African Americans since slavery was ended.  the difference being that African Americans are safer in the US than Sikhs are in India, where torture and rape at the hands of the police is a common occurance.  check any human rights group report on india and it ALWAYS carries an article about the police in Punjab.  in America, individuals may oppress Blacks, but at least the government doesn't do it openly...

of course, you won't read about this in most indian newspapers, thanks to the heavy censorship at the hands of the government.

i can recommend some more books to read if you like.


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## spnadmin (Mar 26, 2008)

The hindustva movement has been a very powerful theme in Indian politics since before World War II. I am not saying it is the sole cause, but it preys on many other economic, political and historical points of contention. Hindustva is the Indian version of fascism and uses political rhetoric that is not so different from the America First campaigns of Patrick Buchanon. Advantaged and educated people prey on and manipulate the disparities of wealth and political power -- and scapegoats are part of the script. It is an ugly movement that has driven many non-Sikh Indians out of India. Harjas ji knows a lot about this.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 27, 2008)

> And yet, what? Humans are still chopping off each other heads to prove 'my God is better than your God' Hindustan, Khalistan, Pakistan, Iraq...


 
Panji, I hear pain in your heart over these things. Let me tell you a story please.

Once Buddha Ji (and Buddha Ji is a very ahimsa nonviolent person). Once Buddha Ji was in a previous incarnation... before he was the Buddha... and in this incarnation he was on a little boat with people and they got captured and taken hostage by a pirate ship.

On the pirate ship was a very evil pirate who had done a lot of horrible things to innocent people. And Buddha Ji already had powers, so he knew what was in the pirates heart and mind. And he knew what the evil pirate was going to do to all the people. Buddha Ji knew the terrible pain, humiliation and grief he was going to cause them. And that even after they died, the people would be disturbed spiritually, and it would take them a long long time to recover enough to get back to spiritual searching.

And Buddha Ji knew the heart of the evil pirate and how terrible these crimes would be on him too. That it would take eons of suffering incarnations before he could ever get to any spiritual enlightenment.


So Buddha Ji thought to himself, if I do nothing, these terrible actions will happen, and all the terrible karma is going to occur. But if I act... if I sacrifice myself... my actions can stop the suffering.

So Buddha Ji decided it was better that HE take the bad karma of negative actions and kill the evil pirate to prevent him from creating eons of cycles of suffering by his acts.

So Buddha Ji killed the evil pirate. And even in Buddhism it is considered to be an auspicious act of a bodhisattva (selfless service to others).


ਰਣਿ ਰੂਤਉ ਭਾਜੈ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਰਉ ਥਾਰਉ ਨਾਉ ॥੩੪॥ 
ran rootho bhaajai nehee sooro thhaaro naao ||34||
When you are engaged in the battle, don't run away; then, you shall be known as a spiritual hero. ||34||
~SGGS Ji p. 342​ 

ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੇਗ ਵਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਿਰ ਮੁੰਡੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਵਹਿ ॥ 
jaa thudhh bhaavai thaeg vagaavehi sir munddee katt jaavehi ||
When it pleases You, we wield the sword, and cut off the heads of our enemies.
~SGGS Ji p. 145​ 

Panji, the Sikh Dharam was created, not as a nonviolent, pacifistic non-responsiveness to the evil in the world. *It is understood that NOT to act in the face of injustice is also an evil.* We have a duty, a Dharam, *to act*, to step in between evil and harm to an innocent person. We are not held liable for an act of kirpa. But if we engage in violence for our own anger, for our own justification, for our own selfish purpose, then we get karam. In the Kalyug, evil is king, and righteousness is persecuted. So expect this and don't lose heart! Stay in Chardhi kala! 


ਗਗਨ ਦਮਾਮਾ ਬਾਜਿਓ ਪਰਿਓ ਨੀਸਾਨੈ ਘਾਉ ॥ 
gagan dhamaamaa baajiou pariou neesaanai ghaao ||
The battle-drum beats in the sky of the mind; aim is taken, and the wound is inflicted.​ 
ਖੇਤੁ ਜੁ ਮਾਂਡਿਓ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਬ ਜੂਝਨ ਕੋ ਦਾਉ ॥੧॥ 
khaeth j maanddiou sooramaa ab joojhan ko dhaao ||1||
The spiritual warriors enter the field of battle; now is the time to fight! ||1||​ 
ਸੂਰਾ ਸੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨੀਐ ਜੁ ਲਰੈ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਹੇਤ ॥ 
sooraa so pehichaaneeai j larai dheen kae haeth ||
He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defense of religion.​ 
ਪੁਰਜਾ ਪੁਰਜਾ ਕਟਿ ਮਰੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਨ ਛਾਡੈ ਖੇਤੁ ॥੨॥੨॥ 
purajaa purajaa katt marai kabehoo n shhaaddai khaeth ||2||2||
He may be cut apart, piece by piece, but he never leaves the field of battle. ||2||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 1105​ 



> How can millions of people hear Gurujis message, take it to their heart and read it every day and still the situation remains the same? Are we keeping Sikhi too much in the theoretical instead of applying it, or are the forces of chaos and maya just so strong that humanities condition can never change?...


How could Guruji fight bitter wars to defend the oppressed with some pacifistic ideology? Guruji didn't give to his Khalsa pacifistic ideology. He gave them kirpan! He gave them Bir rass! He gave them the Divine dignity of self-defense.

_Realized through the grace of the True Protector;_
_Copy of the original in the hand of the Tenth Guru._
_Blessed am I with the protection of Akal; _
_Available to me is the defense of Sarbloh (AllSteel) _
_Blessed am I with the shield of Sarbkal; _
_Available ever is the protection of Sarbloh._
_~Sri Akal Ustat_​



There is a story, that one day the mughals came and made a terrible attack on the Sikhs killing and wounding. Guruji heard the cries of the women as they were being humiliated. And this is why Guruji gave His Singhnia kirpan! Because He wanted His Sikhs to have the Divine dignity of self-protection. The right to fight back and die with honor. Thats why there is no Sikh who has a weapon but is exempted from using it. What on earth would be the purpose to wear it like a decoration when a war was going on and you were needed? It is the highest Dharam to fight in defense of the helpless!

*"Who like him was there ever in the world,* 
*Who sacrificed his head that others might live?" *
*~Bhai Santokh Singh* ​ 


> Not to mention the things they do to their own fellow believers -- mutilate children's genitals, preists gang raping little girls in the name of their gods, cutting off people's hands and feet, burying them up to their necks and smashing their skulls with rocks, dropping bombs on whole communities....


Sikh religion does not do this. Sikh religion has never done this. Sikh religion is the most persecuted religion on the planet. And that's because Sikh religion has the Dharam to stand up to oppressors, and with their lives try to stop them from causing harm. Stand up and be counted! Guruji is the defender of Human Rights! 


> My other question is, isn't someone going to have to lay down the sword first?


Gandhi's ideology sounds very noble. But it has no inherent honesty. If you lay down your sword, you are just disarmed and helpless. You accomplish nothing by your act. You can't help anyone if you can't even protect yourself.

*"When all other means have failed, It is then righteous to take the sword in the hand." *
*~Zafarnama*​ 
We have no right to harm the innocent. We have positive duty to defend and harm the evildoers if necessary. But it is last resort. Sikhism doesn't turn the other cheek. 

*"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing."*​ 
When you think of crimes against the helpless, think about how peaceful words and gentle spirit will have not stop the brutality. Disarming yourself and weeping while you watch will never save the world. Inactivity lets evil happen.

*"For this purpose was I born,* 
*Understand all you pious people,* 
*To uphold righteousness, to protect the worthy and *
*To overcome and destroy evildoers." *
*~Guru Gobind Singh, **Bachittar Natak* ​ 
Trust in Guruji. He is the Liberator of the evil era. He is strict with evildoers because Vaheguru Ji is Perfect Justice. He is Sarbloh Akal. He is the All-Steel Sword. Khalsa is the Army of God.


> "Guru Gobind appeared in the world as the tenth incarnation. he recited the name of the creator who is unseen, eternal, and saintliness. He established the Khalsa, a sect of his own, and gave it great glory. Wearing long hair he grasped the sword and smothered his enemies. He put on the breeches of self-restraint and practiced arms. He established the Sikh was-cry and was victorious in mighty battles. thus arose the race of Singhs who wore blue clothes. Gobind Singh! You were both Guru and disciple!" ​
> ~Bhai Gurdas Ji



~Bhul chaak maaf karni ji



*Raj Karega Khalsa!*​


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## carolineislands (Mar 27, 2008)

Is is true that Sikh women used to wear dastar more than they do now but they started wearing only chunni because Sikh women were getting raped?

Yeah, more books would be great.  Especially if I can get them on Amazon.com for less than $20.      Just keepin' it real.


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## carolineislands (Mar 27, 2008)

Actually, I wasn't thinking of Sikhs when I said the chopping heads and stoning and all that.  I just didn't want to start a discussion about who I was talking about because I have such a negative attitude about them.  

Off to bed!

Thanks all.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 27, 2008)

> Is is true that Sikh women used to wear dastar more than they do now but they started wearing only chunni because Sikh women were getting raped?


The Mughals put a price on Sikh heads because they wanted to exterminate them. As more and more Singhs died and became fewer, the mughals began killing Singhnia and collecting their heads for reward money.  They explained the lack of facial hair as being heads of young boys, not women.

Because of this, it became less popular for Singhnia to want to give her head for the faith. And the wearing of dastaar became less frequent. Can you see why wearing dastaar is so potent with faith and love and meaning?  Because when you wear dastaar, you are wearing it for all the ones who died before you.  In honor of their love for Guru Khalsa Panth.


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## Astroboy (Mar 27, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> Sorry.
> 
> I have to beg all of your forgiveness. I'm on a spirit quest and have reached the part that feels like the first few steps of Spring cleaning when you have dragged everything out of the closets and drawers, pulled down the curtains and thrown them in the wash and everything is in chaos. It gets so much worse before it gets better.
> 
> ...


 

It always gets so much worse before it gets better. It's my experience too not once but over and over, again and again. But it's all in the mind. The chaos thing ? I have to deal with it everyday. Laziness and lack of discipline is my major problem.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 27, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> The hindustva movement has been a very powerful theme in Indian politics since before World War II. I am not saying it is the sole cause, but it preys on many other economic, political and historical points of contention. Hindustva is the Indian version of fascism and uses political rhetoric that is not so different from the America First campaigns of Patrick Buchanon. Advantaged and educated people prey on and manipulate the disparities of wealth and political power -- and scapegoats are part of the script. It is an ugly movement that has driven many non-Sikh Indians out of India. Harjas ji knows a lot about this.



they actually openly admire Hitler, and praise him and his "effective policies" in government approved history textbooks.  in these same textbooks, they belittle Sikh Gurus and call them Hindus.  

pretty nasty people.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 27, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> Can you see why wearing dastaar is so potent with faith and love and meaning?  Because when you wear dastaar, you are wearing it for all the ones who died before you.  In honor of their love for Guru Khalsa Panth.




this literally brought a tear to my eye.

thanks for this beautiful explanation of what we should remember when we tie dastaar each day.


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## carolineislands (Mar 27, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> they actually openly admire Hitler, and praise him and his "effective policies" in government approved history textbooks.  in these same textbooks, they belittle Sikh Gurus and call them Hindus.
> 
> pretty nasty people.



Who is the pasty looking guy wearing a pageboy and a toga, and sitting on a king's throne?


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## Astroboy (Mar 27, 2008)

Bhai Baljit Singh and Gurmeet Singh Ji - Soora So Pehchaniyai
Dya Singh (Australia) - Soora So Pahchaniey


ਗਗਨ ਦਮਾਮਾ ਬਾਜਿਓ ਪਰਿਓ ਨੀਸਾਨੈ ਘਾਉ ॥ 
gagan dhamaamaa baajiou pariou neesaanai ghaao ||
The battle-drum beats in the sky of the mind; aim is taken, and the wound is inflicted.​

ਖੇਤੁ ਜੁ ਮਾਂਡਿਓ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਬ ਜੂਝਨ ਕੋ ਦਾਉ ॥੧॥ 
khaeth j maanddiou sooramaa ab joojhan ko dhaao ||1||
The spiritual warriors enter the field of battle; now is the time to fight! ||1||​

ਸੂਰਾ ਸੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨੀਐ ਜੁ ਲਰੈ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਹੇਤ ॥ 
sooraa so pehichaaneeai j larai dheen kae haeth ||
He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defense of religion.​

ਪੁਰਜਾ ਪੁਰਜਾ ਕਟਿ ਮਰੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਨ ਛਾਡੈ ਖੇਤੁ ॥੨॥੨॥ 
purajaa purajaa katt marai kabehoo n shhaaddai khaeth ||2||2||
He may be cut apart, piece by piece, but he never leaves the field of battle. ||2||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 1105​


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 27, 2008)

Thankyou Namjap Ji for sharing lovely Gurbani kirtan. Soo beautiful. 

Jasleen Kaur Ji wrote:



> "i read an interview with a sikh "militant", and when asked what the militants will do when they achieve Khalistan... he said they will liberate Bosnia, Tibet, and anyone else who is being oppressed.  it's simply our duty."


Vahegurooo

YouTube - 10 Years - Wasteland (Amnesty International Version)


*Raj Karega Khalsa!*​


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## Astroboy (Mar 28, 2008)

http://www.projectnaad.com/wp-content/uploads/leaflets/spiritual_purpose_of_5ks.pdf

Kindly read this article and give me your feedback if anything is out of line from Sikh principles. Dhanvaad.


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## Astroboy (Mar 31, 2008)

*Sri Amritsar Ishnan*:
Kala Afgana states that the holy water of the sarovar should NOT be referred to as Amrit. We're not debating KA but the statement he made. For that matter anybody could have said it earlier than KA. 

Gurbani Quote from Sri Granth: 

ਉਦਮੁ ਕਰੇ ਭਲਕੇ ਪਰਭਾਤੀ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ *ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰਿ* ਨਾਵੈ ॥
Uḏam karė bẖalkė parbẖāṯī isnān karė amriṯ sar nāvai.
Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the *pool of nectar*.
*Guru Ram Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


What is your opinion on this ?


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## Randip Singh (Mar 31, 2008)

namjap said:


> *Sri Amritsar Ishnan*:
> Kala Afgana states that the holy water of the sarovar should NOT be referred to as Amrit. We're not debating KA but the statement he made. For that matter anybody could have said it earlier than KA.
> 
> Gurbani Quote from Sri Granth:
> ...


 
We must all travel to Amritsar every morning and bathe there. :crazy:


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## Astroboy (Mar 31, 2008)

*ਗੁਰੁ ਸਰਵਰੁ ਮਾਨ ਸਰੋਵਰੁ ਹੈ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਲਹੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ॥
Gur sarvar mān sarovar hai vadbẖāgī purakẖ lahaŉniĥ.
The Guru is the Mansarovar Lake; only the very fortunate beings find Him.
Guru Amar Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

Amritsar and Mansarovar is the same thing. These are places also like Begampura where the mind ceases to bother us, Souls because the mind is discarded by bathing in Mansarovar Lake. Souls, without the mind, emerge in brilliance like swans and enter the sanctuary above the co{censored}r vibrations of the worlds of duality.


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## carolineislands (Mar 31, 2008)

randip singh said:


> We must all travel to Amritsar every morning and bathe there. :crazy:


 
Kinda crowded...


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 31, 2008)

namjap said:


> *Sri Amritsar Ishnan*:
> Kala Afgana states that the holy water of the sarovar should NOT be referred to as Amrit. We're not debating KA but the statement he made. For that matter anybody could have said it earlier than KA.
> 
> Gurbani Quote from Sri Granth:
> ...




amrit has many meanings.  one of them is NAAM.  to bathe in a pool of Amrit could mean to do simran.   many people take this to mean that they should do simran while bathing in the morning.  that explanation works well for me. 

i'm not saying there's not something special about Amritsar...  but Naam can be found anywhere.


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## pk70 (Mar 31, 2008)

ਉਦਮੁ ਕਰੇ ਭਲਕੇ ਪਰਭਾਤੀ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ *ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰਿ* ਨਾਵੈ ॥
Uḏam karė bẖalkė parbẖāṯī isnān karė amriṯ sar nāvai.
Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the *pool of nectar*.
*Guru Ram Das* - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

Sangat ji

In above Guru waak has nothing to do with Amritsar city, its all about Nam simran
People who question Amrit vela, forget that Guru ji is simply asking to start life with His praise  right after asleep. It is beyond my comprehension why it is considered ritual.


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## Astroboy (Apr 1, 2008)

pk70 said:


> ਉਦਮੁ ਕਰੇ ਭਲਕੇ ਪਰਭਾਤੀ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ *ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰਿ* ਨਾਵੈ ॥
> Uḏam karė bẖalkė parbẖāṯī isnān karė amriṯ sar nāvai.
> Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the *pool of nectar*.
> *Guru Ram Das* - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
> ...


 
Pk70 Ji,

Why do the Panthic leaders call Khande de Pahul as Amrit ? 

Peevo Pahul Khande Dhaar,
Hoye Janam Sohela.


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## pk70 (Apr 1, 2008)

namjap Ji

*Amrit word is used for pious concept*. It is used for bani , His Nam, pious time. Any one questions that, to me, is looking for a point to debate nothing more than that. 
Coming back to your question.
*It is used for "khande dee pahul" for the same reason, instead of calling it just sacred water, it is called amrit since it represents very pious ceremoney. *
If we srart thinking lke KA, khande dee pahul, bowing to Guru in respect, reciting of Gurbani,( what does he suggest while taking amrit if reciting bani is ritual? Do  Gossiping? ) almost all ceremoneies  like taking oath etc should  also be called rituals; Ka is dead wrong. When he swore for police job, he did that oath ceremoney, did he say to the presiding officer that" it is a ritual and it is unnecessary"(who knows wheather the person taking oath is serious or just saying the words). contrary to his views,these  ceremonies are not rituals. The guy has no substance to advocate his views.


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## Astroboy (Apr 1, 2008)

Let's leave KA out of this. Because this question has also been in my mind for a very long time. I only knew KA when he got ex-communicated. My question re-phrased is :-

Will the word *Amrit Sanchar* mislead believers in their understanding of the real Amrit ?


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## pk70 (Apr 1, 2008)

namjap ji

My answer will be "NO". *since it is used only for pious ceremoney*, it shouldnt mislead  any one at all. If someone is made to think that after taking it, mircale will happen, that kind of statement is very very supersititious.


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## Archived_Member1 (Apr 1, 2008)

namjap said:


> Let's leave KA out of this. Because this question has also been in my mind for a very long time. I only knew KA when he got ex-communicated. My question re-phrased is :-
> 
> Will the word *Amrit Sanchar* mislead believers in their understanding of the real Amrit ?



in which way do you think believers are being mislead?

Amrit can mean many things.  When Guru Nanak Dev ji went to the river Beas for three days, he experienced something incredible.  he "drank Amrit from the cup of God".  God who is formless, incorporeal, gave Amrit to Guru sahib.  

Amrit is Naam itself, which will bring us mukhti.

Amrit is the name given to sacred water imbued with Naam through the recitation of Banis as instructed by Guru Gobind Singh ji.  will drinking this bring you mukhti?  no, it's only the beginning of the journey.  so is it the same as the naam above?  kind of?  maybe not?

Amrit springs from the ground in Amritsar, hence the city's name.  is it the same amrit we take in Amrit Sanchar?   some people think so.  i don't know.  does this cheapen Amrit Sanchar?  no way.

most people can understand that one word can have different connotations, depending on the circumstances.


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## carolineislands (Apr 1, 2008)

Just to share what rising early to bath in the nectar of Naam means to me...  I take it figuratively because I know in my own heart and life what it means to bathe in the sweet nectar of Naam.  For me, it means to rise early and meditate and sing love to Waheguru, praying and chanting his name till your are overcome with love for him and his presence lifts you out of the mundane state of consciousness.  By doing this, my inner person, spirit, heart -- whatever you want to call it -- is cleansed.  Meanwhile the water signifies this cleansing while cleaning the body as well.  In the crucible of Love, melt the sweet nectar of the Name...  That's what it means to me.

Although God only knows how much I would love to travel to Amritsar, I cannot do that right now, but the Naam makes any water sacred does it not?  So, until I am able to go physically to the Golden Temple, the water from my Kansas faucet or Haiti's Caribbean waters will have to do.  

As for ritual -- how DO you tell the difference between ceremony and ritual?  Anything can become a ritual.  Humans are creatures of habit and we create ritual without even thinking about it.  So what is the difference between ceremony and ritual?

For me the key is in the heart and has to do with sincerity, motives and intentions.

How do you draw the line between ceremony and ritual?


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## Archived_Member1 (Apr 1, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> As for ritual -- how DO you tell the difference between ceremony and ritual?  Anything can become a ritual.  Humans are creatures of habit and we create ritual without even thinking about it.  So what is the difference between ceremony and ritual?
> 
> For me the key is in the heart and has to do with sincerity, motives and intentions.
> 
> How do you draw the line between ceremony and ritual?





do you know WHY you do it?  does it make sense to you, in your heart to do it?  then it's not ritual.

if you do something repeatedly without understanding the meaning behind it, it is ritual.


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## Sikh80 (Apr 1, 2008)

Many a times we know what we are doing, and do not like to do but are almost forced to do, is also a ritual. I can quote a few but not on the forum. 
However, the dictionary states that ceremony and ritual  are synonyms.

rituals of, having the nature of, or done as a rite or rites ritual dances" 
Ritual
1    a set form or system of rites, religious or otherwise 
2    the observance of set forms or rites, as in public worship 
3    a book containing rites or ceremonial forms 
4    a practice, service, or procedure done as a rite, especially at regular intervals 
5    ritual acts or procedures collectively 
—SYN CEREMONY 
ritu[ally 
adv.


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## Sikh80 (Apr 1, 2008)

Coming back to your core question, I shall put it this way. I shall like to enjoy all the ceremonies that I participate in. 
It may not be true in the case of rituals. Rest is ,of course, where your mind and heart lead you. it is more of individuals experience. a ritual of liking shall be a ceremony and _vice versa_ should be true as well.
A nice party that you are participating in but not really enjoying for some reason but are forced to be there till it culminates; it shall be a ritual.


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## Archived_Member1 (Apr 1, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> Many a times we know what we are doing, and do not like to do but are almost forced to do, is also a ritual. I can quote a few but not on the forum.
> However, the dictionary states that ceremony and ritual  are synonyms.
> 
> rituals of, having the nature of, or done as a rite or rites ritual dances"
> ...



in sikhi, the term ritual is usually preceded by "useless".  the context is different from the dictionary definition.


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## Astroboy (Apr 1, 2008)

Being too analytical can be a distraction of what comes naturally. Ever heard of the Centipede and the Toad Story ?


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## Sikh80 (Apr 1, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> in sikhi, the term ritual is usually preceded by "useless".  the context is different from the dictionary definition.



I do not think so. Kindly cite a few examples/quotes if you can do 'off the cuff' to clarify as to what exactly is to be conveyed.


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## Sikh80 (Apr 1, 2008)

namjap said:


> Being too analytical can be a distraction of what comes naturally. Ever heard of the Centipede and the Toad Story ?


This thread is all about contradictions.Your reply is quite in line .Congrats!


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## Sikh80 (Apr 1, 2008)

jasleen ji....Naam japna is a ritual that every sikh should get engaged in early hours. It is not a ceremony; nor can it ever be as per that I know of semantics.

I hope you want to say that Guru Sahibs thought of the Hindu's or Muslims Practices without knowing as to what they were supposed to know prior to getting engaged should be called as a ritual and should have a silent prefix of 'useless'.
 Please confirm.

Sorry, it is 2nd April here in India.
Good day and good night. CU 2morrow


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## Archived_Member1 (Apr 1, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> jasleen ji....Naam japna is a ritual that every sikh should get engaged in early hours. It is not a ceremony; nor can it ever be as per that I know of semantics.
> 
> I hope you want to say that Guru Sahibs thought of the Hindu's or Muslims Practices without knowing as to what they were supposed to know prior to getting engaged. Please confirm.



it's not a "ritual".  it's a form of prayer, meditation, it's like breathing, it's part of life.  

yes, as i said before, ritual is when you don't know why you are doing something.   if you know why you're doing it, and you agree with it, it's not ritual.

*This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Jap on Pannaa 3 *

  	ma(n)n*ai* m*aa*rag t(h)*aa*k n p*aa*e ||
 _The path of the faithful shall never be blocked._
 
 	ma(n)n*ai* path s*i*o paragatt j*aa*e ||
 _The faithful shall depart with honor and fame._
 
 	ma(n)n*ai* mag n chal*ai* pa(n)thh ||
 *The faithful do not follow empty religious rituals.*
 
 	ma(n)n*ai* dhharam s*ae*th*ee* sanaba(n)dhh ||
 _The faithful are firmly bound to the Dharma._
 
 *ai*s*aa* n*aa*m n*i*ra(n)jan h*o*e ||
 _Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord._
 
 	j*ae* k*o* ma(n)n j*aa*n*ai* man k*o*e ||14||
 _Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||14||_


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## Sikh80 (Apr 1, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> it's not a "ritual".  it's a form of prayer, meditation, it's like breathing, it's part of life.
> 
> yes, as i said before, ritual is when you don't know why you are doing something.   if you know why you're doing it, and you agree with it, it's not ritual.
> 
> ...



Naam japna, in the present context, has to be looked either as a ceremony or a ritual.This is the context that we should not lose sight of.  hence the exercise is to see if the packaging of this could be into ritual or ceremony. 
Hence,Your answer, howsoever beautiful, is out of the context and  is not fit to enter the discussion platform. 
_Repeat_:
KIndly state whether Naam japna is a ritual or a ceremony.? else we lose the discussion.


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## Archived_Member1 (Apr 1, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> KIndly state whether Naam japna is a ritual or a ceremony.? else we lose the discussion.




i personally do not feel it is either one.  for me, it is the air i breathe.

i guess i lose the discussion.  that's fine with me.  

enjoy!


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## Sikh80 (Apr 1, 2008)

Kindly take your time,please .I am going to bed.~~~~~~SSA to all~~~~


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## carolineislands (Apr 1, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> it's not a "ritual". it's a form of prayer, meditation, it's like breathing, it's part of life.
> 
> yes, as i said before, ritual is when you don't know why you are doing something. if you know why you're doing it, and you agree with it, it's not ritual.


 
By this logic you could call very few things ritual then.  I'm sure the Catholic knows why they are taking communion, bowing before the statues of Jesus and Mary, crossing themselves with Holy Water and all the other things they do the same way every time they reach a certain place and time in the ceremony.  The Brahmans probably know why they are being bestowed with a sacred thread, the Wiccans know why they're bowing to the directions and walking widdershins around the sacred circle.  You get my drift...  The point is that knowing why you're doing something and agreeing with it doesn't really preclude something being a "ritual."  Whether or not it is meaningless is entirely a different thing.  There again, it would be difficult to say what is meaningless to the person who is performing the ritual.

What rituals did Sikhi have before Guru Gobind Singh?


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## Archived_Member1 (Apr 1, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> By this logic you could call very few things ritual then.  I'm sure the Catholic knows why they are taking communion, bowing before the statues of Jesus and Mary, crossing themselves with Holy Water and all the other things they do the same way every time they reach a certain place and time in the ceremony.  The Brahmans probably know why they are being bestowed with a sacred thread, the Wiccans know why they're bowing to the directions and walking widdershins around the sacred circle.  You get my drift...  The point is that knowing why you're doing something and agreeing with it doesn't really preclude something being a "ritual."  Whether or not it is meaningless is entirely a different thing.  There again, it would be difficult to say what is meaningless to the person who is performing the ritual.
> 
> What rituals did Sikhi have before Guru Gobind Singh?



i'm speaking in context of sikhi.

sikhs don't have meaningless rituals, everything is done for a reason.  Guru ji always taught that doing rituals over and over was pointless if you don't keep God in your mind.

sorry if i'm being unclear.


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## carolineislands (Apr 1, 2008)

I too, am speaking in context of Sikhi.  Just because I use a comparison to explain a point doesn't take the discussion out of context.  We are talking about ritual and using comparitive examples is a useful way of pointing out the elements of ritual.  So, please allow me use relevant comparitive examples when they are helpful, just as you do others in the forum, including the OP.  

My question was not whether or not ritual in Sikhi was meaningless -- certainly it is NOT.  The question was if there were any rituals in Sikhi before Guru Gobind Singh established the baptism of Khalsa.

Or, if you like I can re-phrase it for comfort's sake.  What ceremonies were found in Sikhi before Guru Gobind Singh established the baptism ceremony of the Khalsa?


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## carolineislands (Apr 1, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> i'm speaking in context of sikhi.


So was Guru Nanak when he used the examples of rituals from Islam and Hinduism.


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## Archived_Member1 (Apr 1, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> My question was not whether or not ritual in Sikhi was meaningless -- certainly it is NOT.  The question was if there were any rituals in Sikhi before Guru Gobind Singh established the baptism of Khalsa.
> 
> Or, if you like I can re-phrase it for comfort's sake.  What ceremonies were found in Sikhi before Guru Gobind Singh established the baptism ceremony of the Khalsa?



what exactly are you looking for?    i really dislike it when people try to back me into a corner by playing with words.   i'm not playing this game, whether with you or sikh80 or anyone else.

i hold my position that sikhi is not about ritual.   if you really feel the need to label sikh practices as "ritual" that is your personal choice, feel free to find such practices on your own.  you're a smart lady.  you seem to read a lot about sikhi.  you certainly don't need a fool like me to do the work for you.


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## carolineislands (Apr 1, 2008)

I think the point was whether or not the rituals were "meaningless" was it not? The point I'm trying to make is that the meaning of any ritual, or ceremony, is to be found (as you said) in the heart of the person performing it. What may seem a ritual from the outside looking in may be a heartfelt ceremony or practice from the inside. Perhaps that is why you can say a certain repeated practices or actions is not a "ritual" when done in the context of Sikhi but it IS a ritual in other contexts. Other people might look at Sikhi and think the things we do are meaningless rituals when, in fact, they are very meaningful. As you said, everything in Sikhi has a meaning. But then, doesn't pretty much anyone say that about their own practices?

I am not saying that Sikh practices are meaningless rituals. But I don't see any point in trying to say there are no rituals at all, when any repeated, prescripbed set of actions within the context of one's religion is a ritual. What I am inviting you to do is look at things through other's eyes and see that your religion, just like all the other ones that the One God owns, has these prescribed sets of actions and that, whether or not they are meaningless can only be judged in the heart of the person performing them.

And as for playing games. Don't act like you don't do it too.:u):


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 1, 2008)

> * What is a Ritual?*
> _A prescribed form of performing divine service in a particular church or communion. _
> _Hence, the code of ceremonies observed by an organization; as, the ritual of the freemasons. _
> 
> ...


So by definition a ritual can be almost anything, as one definition includes habits as rituals, such as a nightly glass of milk. But for the purpose to which Gurbani is describing rituals, primarily it is a religious custom.

_



*1. Custom* - a usage or practice common to many or to a particular place or class or habitual with an individual b: long-established practice considered as unwritten law c: repeated practice d: the whole body of usages, practices, or conventions that regulate social life.

Click to expand...

_Before we can judge whether Naam japna is a ritual, we have to understand what Naam is and what could possibly be attained by the practice of jap.


ਤਾ ਕਉ ਮਾਇਆ ਅਗਨਿ ਨ ਪੋਹੈ ॥੩॥ 
thaa ko maaeiaa agan n pohai ||3||
The fire of Maya does not touch them. ||3||​ 
ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਇਆਲ ॥ 
man than mukh har naam dhaeiaal ||
Within their minds, bodies and mouths, is the Name of the Merciful Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 190​ 

First, Naam Japna isn't mindless repetition of God's Name. To understand Naam Japna, you have to understand the psych-spiritual processes of the human body. The body is capable of being like a radio antenna, to receive and transmit signals. The brain is capable of achieving states of heightened consciousness. Thats why some practice of just mindless repetition doesn't permit the mind to transcend the senses. Clearly Gurbani is saying the fire of Maya doesn't touch them. How can you escape Maya while still in your human body? To get to a place where Maya doesn't touch you, you have to transcend ordinary states of body consciousness.​ 

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੀਓ ਗੁਰਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ॥ 
har kaa naam dheeou gur manthra ||
The Guru has given me the Mantra of the Name of the Lord.​ 
ਮਿਟੇ ਵਿਸੂਰੇ ਉਤਰੀ ਚਿੰਤ ॥੨॥ 
mittae visoorae outharee chinth ||2||
My worries are forgotten, and my anxiety is gone. ||2||​ 
ਅਨਦ ਭਏ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਤ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ॥ 
anadh bheae gur milath kirapaal ||
Meeting with the Merciful Guru, I am in ecstasy.​ 
ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਾਟੇ ਜਮ ਜਾਲ ॥੩॥ 
kar kirapaa kaattae jam jaal ||3||
Showering His Mercy, He has cut away the noose of the Messenger of Death. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 190​ 

Here we see that the Naam takes all your worries and cares away, removes your anxiety, and gives you state of ecstacy. So it is clear Gurbani is talking about a transcendant state of consciousness. Naam japna is that technique by which the mind is turned inward, away from the senses and sensual world, away from fires of temptation and Maya. Naam japna is the method which lifts the spiritual energies upward to pierce the nine gates and unlock the door of the tenth. Since this is an active process involving inner Self-realization and meeting with the Guru within, it's can't be a ritual or a custom. It isn't an action done to fulfill religious or social purposes. But it is the very process of Self-liberation.​ 

ਗੁਰਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਅਵਖਧੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੀਨਾ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੰਕਟ ਜੋਨਿ ਨ ਪਾਇ ॥੫॥੨॥ 
gur manthra avakhadhh naam dheenaa jan naanak sankatt jon n paae ||5||2||
One who is blessed with the medicine of the GurMantra, the Name of the Lord, O servant Nanak, does not suffer the agonies of reincarnation. ||5||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 1002​ 
There can be no comparison to wearing a red thread, or eating a communion wafer, or performing arti. It's NOT a ritual, it's a method of inner attunement with Guru. It's a _resonance_ of the whole body, subtle sheaths of body, mind and soul with the very God. By bringing the intensity of meditation and life energy and consciousness into awareness and praise of the God, the body becomes a tool of liberation. Gurmantra is infused with the power of jyot and Gurshabad. It is the very essence of Guruji's presence, light and sound. And the Gurmantra once implanted within with Naam drihr is a power and presence infused into your consciousness, into your being. It is shaktipat transmission. Naam japna, saas giras simran is the technique to begin vibrating that energy and moving it through your whole being, upwards, and inwards to the dasm duar. So it is an aliveness, activation of energy rather than a ritual.  It is the most active and aware form of prayer.


ਅਦਿਸਟੁ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਥਾਇਆ ਥਾ ॥ 
adhisatt agochar paarabreham mil saadhhoo akathh kathhaaeiaa thhaa ||
The Supreme Lord God is imperceptible and unfathomable; meeting the Holy Saint, I speak the Unspoken Speech.​ 
ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦੁ ਦਸਮ ਦੁਆਰਿ ਵਜਿਓ ਤਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਚੁਆਇਆ ਥਾ ॥੨॥ 
anehadh sabadh dhasam dhuaar vajiou theh anmrith naam chuaaeiaa thhaa ||2||
The unstruck sound current of the Shabad vibrates and resounds in the Tenth Gate; the Ambrosial Naam trickles down there. ||2||​ 
ਤੋਟਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਬੂਝੀ ਅਖੁਟ ਭੰਡਾਰ ਸਮਾਇਆ ਥਾ ॥ 
thott naahee man thrisanaa boojhee akhutt bhanddaar samaaeiaa thhaa ||
I lack nothing; the thirsty desires of my mind are satisfied. The inexhaustible treasure has entered into my being.
~SGGS Ji p. 1002​ 
Anyone who thinks Japping Naam is just a ritual has no concept of what Naam is, what the human body was designed to achieve. It's a very deeply metaphysical practice to liberate and expand consciousness and achieve mukti. It's bhakti. It's devotion. It's a love affair. It is the very life (prana) and breath (ayama). Pranayam.​ 
ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਸਦ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਹਲੀ ਪਾਵੈ ਥਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
naam nidhhaan sadh man vasai mehalee paavai thhaao ||1|| rehaao ||
The Treasure of the Naam abides forever within the mind, and one's place of rest is found in the Mansion of the Lord's Presence. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 30​ 

Naam japna is prayer, it is communion with the Divine Beloved, it is movement and energy and aliveness, it is transformation.  It cannot even possibly be considered a ritual.


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## Archived_Member1 (Apr 1, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> I think the point was whether or not the rituals were "meaningless" was it not? The point I'm trying to make is that the meaning of any ritual, or ceremony, is to be found (as you said) in the heart of the person performing it. What may seem a ritual from the outside looking in may be a heartfelt ceremony or practice from the inside. Perhaps that is why you can say a certain repeated practices or actions is not a "ritual" when done in the context of Sikhi but it IS a ritual in other contexts. Other people might look at Sikhi and think the things we do are meaningless rituals when, in fact, they are very meaningful. As you said, everything in Sikhi has a meaning. But then, doesn't pretty much anyone say that about their own practices?
> 
> I am not saying that Sikh practices are meaningless rituals. But I don't see any point in trying to say there are no rituals at all, when any repeated, prescripbed set of actions within the context of one's religion is a ritual. What I am inviting you to do is look at things through other's eyes and see that your religion, just like all the other ones that the One God owns, has these prescribed sets of actions and that, whether or not they are meaningless can only be judged in the heart of the person performing them.
> 
> And as for playing games. Don't act like you don't do it too.:u):




in sikhi, the word ritual is used to refer to meaningless or repetitive acts that do not keep God in mind.

no, there are no rituals in sikhi, if you can manage to go by the sikh usage of the word.  you simply cannot describe Sikhi from the point of view of a christian/westerner.  

and i find your insinuation that i "play games" here extremely insulting.  i'm an open book.  my honesty gets me in far too much trouble.  i'm not nearly clever enough to "play games".  if i were, do you think i'd be jumped on so often?


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## spnadmin (Apr 1, 2008)

Carolineislands ji

Are you asking the question about "ritual" from the point of view of history/cultural practice and tradition or in the sense of spiritual practice? Not that two are not related. But I had the sense that you were asking about historical accounts of religious practices  -- i.e., liturgies of the time versus post 1699. That may help move the question along.


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## carolineislands (Apr 1, 2008)

> It's a _resonance_ of the whole body, subtle sheaths of body, mind and soul with the very God. By bringing the intensity of meditation and life energy and consciousness into awareness and praise of the God, the body becomes a tool of liberation. Gurmantra is infused with the power of jyot and Gurshabad. It is the very essence of Guruji's presence, light and sound. And the Gurmantra once implanted within with Naam drihr is a power and presence infused into your consciousness, into your being. It is shaktipat transmission. Naam japna, saas giras simran is the technique to begin vibrating that energy and moving it through your whole being, upwards, and inwards to the dasm duar. So it is an aliveness, activation of energy rather than a ritual. It is the most active and aware form of prayer.


 
I agree.  This level of connection with the Beloved can be found in other traditions as well, and in those traditions it is also one of the most active and aware forms of prayer.

As for terminology, the terms "ritual" and "custom" are interchangable in some instances.  I think the point that everybody is trying to make is that japna is not a MEANINGLESS practice.  I suppose like anything else it could become meaningless if a person's mind was wandering and they were simply repeating words, but then they would not reach this level of consciousness you speak of here.


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## spnadmin (Apr 1, 2008)

Thanks for the clarification.


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## carolineislands (Apr 1, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> in sikhi, the word ritual is used to refer to meaningless or repetitive acts that do not keep God in mind.
> 
> no, there are no rituals in sikhi, if you can manage to go by the sikh usage of the word. you simply cannot describe Sikhi from the point of view of a christian/westerner.


 
You said yourself that the point was whether or not the ritual was meaningless.  And frankly, trying invalidate every point I make that you don't agree with by asserting that it's some sort of Christian point of view is just another way of poisoning the well.  My Christian background has nothing to do with it.  If I see a donkey standing in the road and you think it's a horse I think you'd say I thought it was a donkey because Mary rode one to Bethlehem.  No -- it's either a donkey or a horse and neither or our prior religions have anything to do with it.  Please don't do that to me.  Harjas just put a definition of ritual that matches mine -- is that because she is coming from a Christian/Western point of view?  No -- it's the definition.  



> and i find your insinuation that i "play games" here extremely insulting. i'm an open book. my honesty gets me in far too much trouble. i'm not nearly clever enough to "play games". if i were, do you think i'd be jumped on so often?


 
Ooops.  I was hoping that sort of friendly jibing might lighten things up but I guess it didn't work.  I apologize for that.  But in all fairness, wasn't it your term in the first place?  Why is it only "playing games" if someone is doing it?

And I haven't observed you getting "jumped on."  Everybody gets confronted on this forum -- that's because it's a discussion/debate forum.  I don't think you get it any more than anybody else.  I feel that you and Harjas are rather confrontational with me and that you both unfairly use my prior religion as a way of discrediting some of my arguments.  But hey -- that's a debate forum.  And although I don't think it's exactly fair play, I don't think you're jumping on me.  

I think we're all trying to have a discussion here.  And if I was too aggressive I apologize.  I will be more conscientious in the future.


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## carolineislands (Apr 1, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Carolineislands ji
> 
> Are you asking the question about "ritual" from the point of view of history/cultural practice and tradition or in the sense of spiritual practice? Not that two are not related. But I had the sense that you were asking about historical accounts of religious practices -- i.e., liturgies of the time versus post 1699. That may help move the question along.


 
At the risk of offending anyone, I would like to know about the changes in Sikhi or the structure of religious practices throughout the history of the faith.  How did things change with Guru Gobind Singh and the Khalsa?  When did most of the changes happen and what circumstances surrounded the change?  When did the religion become structured, so to speak... or what one might call and "organized" religion?

Please, if this question offends you, just try to ignore it.  I really am curious about these changes.


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## Archived_Member1 (Apr 1, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> You said yourself that the point was whether or not the ritual was meaningless.  And frankly, trying invalidate every point I make that you don't agree with by asserting that it's some sort of Christian point of view is just another way of poisoning the well.  My Christian background has nothing to do with it.  If I see a donkey standing in the road and you think it's a horse I think you'd say I thought it was a donkey because Mary rode one to Bethlehem.  No -- it's either a donkey or a horse and neither or our prior religions have anything to do with it.  Please don't do that to me.  Harjas just put a definition of ritual that matches mine -- is that because she is coming from a Christian/Western point of view?  No -- it's the definition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i have no issue with your prior religion.  i only suggest that you might want to look at things from a different perspective.  trying to view sikhi from a purely western perspective can seriously confuse the issues.  please do not take the suggestion personally.  

btw, your statement about the horse is ridiculous and you know it.


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## carolineislands (Apr 1, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> i have no issue with your prior religion. i only suggest that you might want to look at things from a different perspective. trying to view sikhi from a purely western perspective can seriously confuse the issues. please do not take the suggestion personally.
> 
> btw, your statement about the horse is ridiculous and you know it.


 
Of course I know it -- that's why I used it.  Because I think the suggestion that, by my using the standard definition of an English term, I am viewing Sikhi from a "Christian/western point of view" is equally nonsensical.  

But I do apologize for offending you.  I really was trying to lighten things up with the :u):  and all that.  I never meant to suggest that any of the things you do are meaningless.  It is very clear to everyone that you are profoundly committed to your faith and deeply in love with your Guru.  I admire that very very much.  

Please forgive me for offending you.


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## Archived_Member1 (Apr 1, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> At the risk of offending anyone, I would like to know about the changes in Sikhi or the structure of religious practices throughout the history of the faith.  How did things change with Guru Gobind Singh and the Khalsa?  When did most of the changes happen and what circumstances surrounded the change?  When did the religion become structured, so to speak... or what one might call and "organized" religion?
> 
> Please, if this question offends you, just try to ignore it.  I really am curious about these changes.




sikhi evolved over the course of the 10 Gurus.  Guru Nanak Dev ji started a distinct path when he began preaching against the superstition and *useless *rituals that were prevalent at the time, instead suggesting we can achieve salvation through meditation on God.

what does it mean to be "organized"?  Guru Nanak Dev ji had followers who spread his word and teachings.

Guru Angad gave us a new script, Gurmukhi, in which to write the teachings.

Guru Amar Das institutionalized Langar, making sure that Guru's kitchen was open day and night and made sure that everyone ate as equals, even kings.  he also solidified the equality of women, speaking out against Sati and Purdha and began to encourage widow remarriage.  he ordered a tank to be dug in what would become Amritsar.

Guru Ram Das began construction of the holy city of Amritsar, sent out many missionaries all over the region to spread the faith.  he encouraged people to find god not only through meditation but through active involvement in the joys and sorrows of those around them.

Guru Arjun Dev constructed  Harimandir Sahib.  he instituted dasvand (giving 10% of the income to the poor).  he collected the writings of all of the previous Gurus, as well as his own and those of many bhagats, poets, and saints, and created the Adi Granth (predecessor to SGGS).  he began to encouage sikhs to learn horseback riding and weaponry.   he was the first Martyr of the Sikh Gurus.  (weapons, martyrdom... can you see the khalsa began long before the 10th Guru?  )

Guru Hargobind emphasized the martial aspect of Sikhi, always carrying two swords, Miri and Piri to represent that sikhs must live both in the spritual and the temporal world.  he built the Akal Takht across from Harimandir Sahib as a temporal seat to emphasize this.  Guru Hargobind built the first Sikh Army, encouraging gifts of weapons rather than money, teaching his followers to be ready for war.  at this point the Sikhs began to fight the oppressive mughal forces.

Guru Har Rai faced the rise of mughal intolerance and during his reign his son, Ram Rai, created the first schism in sikhi by changing gurbani to suit his own needs.  when he was disowned, he declaired himself Guru.  there are still Gurdwaras in his name in parts of India.

Guru Harkrishan, in his too short life, showed the world the true meaning of seva by caring for the sick of all faiths until he too succumbed to disease and died.

Guru Teg Bahadur increased the military strength of Sikhs and showed that we must fight against oppression, no matter who is being oppressed.  he saved the hindus of kashmir from genocide.   he opened langar halls and dug wells all across india.   he reinforced the notion that God is for everyone, hindu, muslim, and sikh, and that we must not force our beliefs on others.  he too was martyred.

and so we come to Guru Gobind Singh ji...   as you can see, the evolution of the Sikh faith took 10 Gurus, it didn't suddenly happen with the creation of the Khalsa.  the Khalsa was necessary so that Guru sahib could allow the line of human Gurus to end and pass Guruship on to SGGS ji.  

every Guru's accomplishments and inventions are merely extensions of what came before.  there was not great single event that created the religion.  

sorry if this is all old news to you.  i was looking for a way to describe the evolution of the faith and this was the best way i could think of to do it.


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## Archived_Member1 (Apr 1, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> Of course I know it -- that's why I used it.  Because I think the suggestion that, by my using the standard definition of an English term, I am viewing Sikhi from a "Christian/western point of view" is equally nonsensical.




forgive me, my english isn't all that great.  i'm not terribly educated and think with my heart rather than my mind.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 1, 2008)

With all do respect, and I enjoy your lively personality, the wealth of spirituality you bring, and your sincerity... I also believe you approach an understanding of Sikhism from Christian perspective. There's nothing to invalidate in that. But it does mean that you might need to dig a little deeper for the Eastern meanings which are often not the same as the Western ones. please don't take offense, as I too come from Christian background Ji. Just please be patient with all of us as well if something you might make an association with may clang as not right to some of us. We will all share in our best way and come to everybody having a better understanding.


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## carolineislands (Apr 2, 2008)

Now see?  This is one of the things I really LOVE about Sikhi -- SIKHS!


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## Astroboy (Apr 2, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> With all do respect, and I enjoy your lively personality, the wealth of spirituality you bring, and your sincerity... I also believe you approach an understanding of Sikhism from Christian perspective. There's nothing to invalidate in that. But it does mean that you might need to dig a little deeper for the Eastern meanings which are often not the same as the Western ones. please don't take offense, as *I too come from Christian background Ji.* Just please be patient with all of us as well if something you might make an association with may clang as not right to some of us. We will all share in our best way and come to everybody having a better understanding.


 
Wow!!! That's wonderful. So much of knowledge about Sikhism ? You've become my teacher, Harjas Ji. I haven't asked your age - early 30's ? If I guessed right, let me know. It's nice to share info with you and I hope you will participate to give your views about Balbir Singh's posts. Feel free to disagree with anyone including me, coz I'm learning.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 2, 2008)

I am 45 yrs, Ji. But I don't only come from Christian background. My family was Christian, but from earliest youth I studied mysticism of many religions. My great-grandmother was an occultist and spiritualist medium who was well known at the time of the early 1900's in her community. I can recognize the yogic practice alluded to in the SGGS Ji more readily than someone who never heard of these things. To some these things are a mystery, what is meant by 9 openings or 10 gates or 27 levels, etc. But those are yogic terms. Dasm Duar and pranayam is spoken of in Bhagavad Gita as means to mukti. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was regarded as a Spiritual Master by yogis and siddhis as evidenced in his dialogues with them in Siddh Gosht. 

You can't fully understand Gurbani by completely rejecting yogic philosophy because thats the background and cultural context it's spoken in. Sikhism isn't a rejection of Hindu philosophy, but a rejection of Hindu religion. During time of Kal Yug, to correct errors, Guruji created Sikh Dharam. The Christian Bible is also an extremely mystical document which alludes to yogic concepts. And the field gets muddy if you take into account banned scriptures such as the Gnostic gospels. Tibetan Buddhist Lamas have writings of Jesus preserved, who was to them, Mani of Manicheanism. The Tocharians had fled the Catholic persecution of Manicheans and moved into areas of China and Tibet blending their beliefs with Buddhism. Even the Tocharian language is a blend of Greek, Latin, Turkish and Sanskrit. Manichean Gnosticism had strong influence on Islam and Sufism as well, since the Uighers roamed an area from China, Tibet, Turkey, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Persia (Modern day Iran). Unless someone is familiar with hidden history or occultism they wouldn't be aware of the connections in the mystical literature. _"Before converting to Islam, Uyghurs were __Manichaeans__, __Zoroastrians__, __Buddhists__, or __Nestorian__Christians__."_










Tocharian envoy in ancient China, caucasian mummy from China





Caucasian racial traits among China's blonde Uigher population.



> _"The alphabet the Tocharians were using is derived from the North Indian Brahmi alphabetic syllabary (abugida) and is referred to as slanting Brahmi. It soon became apparent that a large proportion of the manuscripts were translations of known Buddhist works in Sanskrit and some of them were even bilingual, facilitating decipherment of the new language. Besides the Buddhist and Manichaean religious texts, there were also monastery correspondence and accounts, commercial documents, caravan permits, and medical and magical texts, and one love poem. Many Tocharians embraced Manichaean duality or Buddhism."_
> _Tocharian languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_


When you uncover the history, it will come as no surprise to find parallel concepts and relationships among the major world religions. Interestingly it was also Buddhism, Gnostic Christianity as well as Hinduism which influenced the Sufism of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's time. Guru Ji is revered as a spiritual Master by Buddhists today and a saint by Muslims. So Guru Ji was a Master of all these hidden spiritual teachings. And His Masterpiece for the world? Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj.


> _Drawing from Qur'anic verses, virtually all Sufis distinguish Lataif-e-Sitta (The Six Subtleties), Nafs, Qalb, Ruh, Sirr, Khafi & Akhfa. These lataif (singular : latifa) designate various *psychospiritual "organs*", or faculties of sensory perception. Sufic development involves the *awakening of these spiritual centers of perception that lie dormant in an individual*. Each center is associated with a particular color and general area of the body, often with a particular prophet, and varies from order to order. *The help of a guide is considered necessary to help activate these centers.* After undergoing this process, the dervish is said to reach a certain type of "completion."_
> 
> _The person gets acquainted with the lataif one by one by Muraqaba (Sufi meditation), *Dhikr* (Remembrance of God) and purification of one's psyche of negative thoughts, emotions, and actions. Loving God and one's fellow, irrespective of his or her race, religion or nationality, and without consideration for any possible reward, is the key to ascension according to Sufis. These six "organs" or faculties: Nafs, Qalb, Ruh, Sirr, Khafi and Akhfa, and the purificative activities applied to them, contain the basic orthodox Sufi philosophy. The purification of the elementary passionate nature (Tazkiya-I-Nafs), followed by cleansing of the spiritual heart so that it may acquire a mirror-like purity of reflection (Tazkiya-I-Qalb) and become the receptacle of God's love (Ishq) and illumination of the spirit (Tajjali-I-Ruh). _


We can see from looking at *Sufi* concepts there is a form of chakra system which is alluded to, chanting the Name of God (Dhikr) as spiritual practice to open spiritual perception, and the requirement of a guide, spiritual Master or Guru to initiate and empower this process. 




[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]_



[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]*Dhikr* comes from Arabic word dhikru llah. Muslim religious technique used by Sufis, in which a name of God or a short religious phrase is repeated over and over again. The object of doing this varies somewhat. It could be to glorify God or, as is more common in Sufism, by *the means by which one tries to step out of this world in order to come closer to God.* The Arabic term "dhikr" should be translated with "remembrance".[/FONT]

Click to expand...

_[/FONT]
We can see a parallel with Naam Simran and Vaheguru Gurmantara in the Sufi practice of Dhikr. Criticisms against Sufism include definitions of God which are not strictly monotheistic, but pantheistic. 
_



"As an example, some critics consider the concept of divine unity Wahdat-ul-wujood equivalent to pantheism and therefore incompatible with Islam." Sufism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Click to expand...

_


> *Judaism:* The ten aspects of the Divine can be described as (also see Sephirah):
> 
> Keter (Crown; כתר)
> Chokhmah (Wisdom; חכמה)
> ...


Jewish mystical teachings like the Kabbalah even have a form of chakra system. But to understand the mysticism of any religious teaching, first you have to read very carefully. If you're not looking for it, you will entirely miss the occult esoteric core at the heart of mystical religious teachings. Everyone approaches spirituality with their own understanding. No one can invalidate that. But sometimes there are inaccuracies in understanding of terminology, history and context.


> _"The common core of most religions is devotional mysticism, based on the Sound Current, Word, or Holy Name. It is rooted in meditation (inner journeys) whether it appears in Judaism, Sufism, Tantra, Taoism, etc. While science explores outer phenomena, the field of mysticism explores the inner realms, which can be perceived only by our soul. A study of the different major religions reveals that each has an esoteric core. The essence of each religion is the union of the soul with God."_
> _MYSTICISM IN JUDAISM AND THE KABBALAH_


_"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~John 1:1 (Christian Bible)_

~Bhul chak maaf


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## Astroboy (Apr 3, 2008)

_Drawing from Qur'anic verses, virtually all Sufis distinguish __Lataif-e-Sitta__ (The Six Subtleties), Nafs, Qalb, Ruh, Sirr, Khafi & Akhfa. These lataif (singular : latifa) designate various *psychospiritual "organs*", or faculties of sensory perception. Sufic development involves the *awakening of these spiritual centers of perception that lie dormant in an individual*. Each center is associated with a particular color and general area of the body, often with a particular prophet, and varies from order to order. *The help of a guide is considered necessary to help activate these centers.* After undergoing this process, the dervish is said to reach a certain type of "completion."_

When you uncover the history, it will come as no surprise to find parallel concepts and relationships among the major world religions. Interestingly it was also Buddhism, Gnostic Christianity as well as Hinduism which influenced the Sufism of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's time. Guru Ji is revered as a spiritual Master by Buddhists today and a saint by Muslims. So Guru Ji was a Master of all these hidden spiritual teachings. And His Masterpiece for the world? Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj.

This is interesting stuff, Harjas Ji. You've opened a new dimension of priori knowledge to me. Is there a concept of a map - like Begumpura, Amarpur, Mansarovar, etc while one journeys thru these inner realms ?


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## carolineislands (Apr 3, 2008)

It's interesting to note that Sufis aren't recognized by mainstream Muslims.  

YouTube - Sufi Dance
YouTube - Kookay Gone Wild
YouTube - Tear the church up 3 (however you wanna)
YouTube - trance ritual dance
YouTube - Thaipusam ritualistic dance


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## futurekaur (Apr 3, 2008)

Buddhism, which I practiced very seriously for about 13 years has a form of nam jaap. Especially the most popular Buddhist sect in the world: Pure Land Buddhism. That's all they do.
  Tendai Buddhism which I practiced seriously for 4 years, is an ancient Japanese sect with tantic tradition,  works with chakras, Hindu gods, mantras and mudras. Only the initiated receive this; I had to train to be a Buddhist priestess to receive these...it all comes from India.
  I left it as you have to give total obedience to your sensei (guru). Why would I do this to a man with obvious flaws and faults?


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## Astroboy (Apr 4, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> It's interesting to note that Sufis aren't recognized by mainstream Muslims.
> 
> YouTube - Sufi Dance
> YouTube - Kookay Gone Wild
> ...


 
Caroline Ji,

You can add this one in the list too :

YouTube - Re: another crazy Sunni


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## carolineislands (Apr 4, 2008)

Thank you! Interesting that the movements you see in this film are very similar to some movements you see in African American ecstatic worship -- the slight bending and crossing ones arms over the abdomen then standing up and throwing the arms to the sides and back, and pounding the air in front of ones self in an expression of barely contained passion/joy/adoration and thankfulness.

We humans are so much more alike than most of us ever even guess. God bless and forgive us all... When are we going to stop focusing on the differences and hurting, killing, slaughtering each other in the name of the very God that should be binding us together?


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## carolineislands (Apr 4, 2008)

Whenever I hear people criticizing the manner in which someone expresses their passion or joy towards God I want to say, "Yeah, I bet you act just as stupid when you're making love to your worldly husband!"


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## Astroboy (Apr 5, 2008)

Caroline Ji,

There is a consistency in expressing love for God and the love for unity with a spouse. It touches the most natural instinct in all living things. Sex is only one side of it. It is the yeaning to be one with the object of desire. Even when our worldly spouse is next to one, one still has the feeling of separation existing, how then can one get closer to quench this ever-present desire ?


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## carolineislands (Apr 5, 2008)

namjap said:


> how then can one get closer to quench this ever-present desire ?


 By continuing to express your love? Continue until you dissolve into that expression...

I have a very wonderful husband and he has taught me so much about love. He is always kind to me, accepting of me, understanding, attentive, and has never put his own needs before mine. I am humbled by him and I've learned a few things about getting closer to God from him. It's nearly impossible to resist loving someone who loves you the way my husband loves me. So it is with God -- how could I not love such a Guru? When I turn my mind in to Him and lose myself in that love there is nothing but Him. There is no time or place or me or Him or the World of This & That... there is just this matchless, all pervading, inexplicable... well I can't explain it because it's inexplicable. All I know is that every time it happens I want it to last forever. And I live in a constant state of desire from one of these moments until the next.

Oh, and JMHO means "just my humble opinion."


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## Astroboy (Apr 5, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> By continuing to express your love? Continue until you dissolve into that expression...
> And I live in a constant state of desire from one of these moments until the next.
> 
> Oh, and JMHO means "just my humble opinion."


 
Thank you for such a lovely and thoughful expression of emotions and JMHO.


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## Astroboy (Apr 13, 2008)

My next question is - 
*What's wrong in accepting Dalits into the fold of Sikhism ?*

*Why won't the Sikh authorities in Punjab (Akaal Takht)  made this decision ?*


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## Astroboy (Apr 15, 2008)

Belittling the Caste-System 

A Gateway to Sikhism | Guru Stories:Belittling the Caste-System - A Gateway to Sikhism

Guru Nanak Dev disparagingly condemned caste-prejudices. To do away with this social malady he set an example. He visited Bhai Lalo an 'out-caste', and both had their meals together, giving a shocking surprise to the village-folk. Moreover, Mardana, the life-long companion of Guru Sahib was minstrel, coming from 'low-caste'.​


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 15, 2008)

namjap 
who told you or where did you read that dalits are not accepted into Sikhism?????


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## Astroboy (Apr 15, 2008)

At what rate are new converts being brought into the fold of Sikhism and cite case examples not hearsay. Provide links.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 16, 2008)

See namjap a Sikh will never try to convert someone of one religion to another.  One of the Sikhs missions is to teach humanity about Sikhism and if by these teachings that person chooses to accept Sikhism that is great.  People ask for links for source of proof but one of the greatest links we have is our mind and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.


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## Astroboy (Apr 16, 2008)

Singh said:


> namjap
> who told you or where did you read that dalits are not accepted into Sikhism?????


 

Your answer does not reflect your above-mentioned quote. Are you contradicting yourself ?


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 16, 2008)

namjap 
How am I contradicting myself? I simply asked you a question without out taking a side on the issue. Then I told you a Sikh will never convert someone of one religion to another.  So please explain to me where I contradicted myself in these two comments


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## Astroboy (Apr 16, 2008)

Singh said:


> See namjap a Sikh will never try to convert someone of one religion to another. One of the Sikhs missions is to teach humanity about Sikhism and if by these teachings that person chooses to accept Sikhism that is great. People ask for links for source of proof but one of the greatest links we have is our mind and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.


 
Singh Ji,

The greatest link we have is our mind and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Please elaborate why we are given a mind. If we are not the mind, then who are we ?


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 16, 2008)

namjap
who are we? We are body, mind and spirit


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## Astroboy (Apr 16, 2008)

Singh said:


> See namjap a Sikh will never try to convert someone of one religion to another. One of the Sikhs missions is to teach humanity about Sikhism and if by these teachings that person chooses to accept Sikhism that is great. People ask for links for source of proof but *one of the greatest links we have is our mind and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib*.


 
Can you give reference from SGGS that we are body, mind and spirit ?


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 16, 2008)

At the moment I cannot and when I do come across it in SGGS I will put it on this thread.


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## Astroboy (Apr 16, 2008)

Is there a bridging proposal for Dalits to adopt the Sikh way of life by allowing gradual changes from their current lifestyle. By this I mean to improve their traditional habits in a step by step way. If there is such an attempt to accept them, then what would be the capacity of inflow of new sikhs from this Dalit caste ?

Is there a restriction by the Indian constitution of mass conversion to Sikhism ?


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## spnadmin (Apr 16, 2008)

Nam Jap ji

I am not missing the subtle parts of your questions. They are all very good and probing. But there is actually a example in real-time that is related to the question you are asking. 

There was a proposal by SGPC to admit Sanatan Sikhs into the fold. Sanatan Sikhs historically have been largely members of the Dalit caste. This is going back a few  centuries. The proposal was made in April or so a year ago. I am not 100 percent certain of the timing of this. The argument was that Sikhs should  and could increase their numbers by forgetting historical differences and religious differences that were part of ancient history. This move many said would be good for everyone. It would improve the political standing of Sikhs in India and it would demonstrate that Sikhism is a religion that embraces many different groups. Now a year later what has happened with this proposal? Do we hear anything about it any more? No. Now once again Sanatans are being characterized as "out of the fold" for their heresies. 

My personal opinion is irrelevant. I have some questions however.

It seems that an older frame of mind dominates the discussion of who is and who is not a Sikh. Yet exclusion by caste goes against the core values of Sikhi. I am well aware of the religious reasons given to exclude Sanatans. Moreover, in day to day life contact with Dalits is kept to a minimum. Only this week there was yet another story of an honor killing in India. A young Sikh  woman was caught with her Dalit boyfriend. She was beaten unconscious and the burned to death by her family. 

Tell this moorath Westerner then what are the ways in which Dalits can be included if not welcomed. If not conversion, if not evangelism, then what? If not Dalits, then what about others? How do others find their way to the fold?


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## Archived_Member4 (May 11, 2008)

Add ji 
I see you have gone to the extent of name calling on this discussion.  Surely you should know that this is against Sikhism and the same with anger.  I even waited a couple of weeks for you to realize this yourself, but surely you have not done so. 

Now to get back on the topic; my whole point here is that a person cannot be converted into Sikhism.  Sikhism is a way of life and either you follow it or you don’t.  Once the Sikh knows that he/she is capable of this lifestyle, then that Sikh can take Amrit and become a true Sikh while still obeying to the lifestyle.


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## spnadmin (May 11, 2008)

Singh ji

You must have missed my reply of May 3 -- because it was erased during the forum software upgrade. Calm down! Your previous comment in which you apparently thought I was calling you names was also erased. Reread what I said. I was calling myself a "moorath" and a "Westerner". Not you.  I don't even know you.


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## Archived_Member4 (May 11, 2008)

Tell this moorath Westerner then what are the ways in which Dalits can be included if not welcomed. If not conversion, if not evangelism, then what? If not Dalits, then what about others? How do others find their way to the fold?

add ji this above quote was written by you.  This quote clearly states you called me a moorath westerner, even though i do not know what it means, but it was meant as an insult by you.  If you had called yourself one you would have said, 'tell me, the moorath westerner.....

I hold nothing against you everyone makes a mistake for we all are human.


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## futurekaur (May 11, 2008)

SinghJi;
  when I read the post I took it as AntoniaJi speaking about herself; this is a poetic-rhetorical device. So she omitted the 'You' as in 'You tell this moorath Westerner....''  
  I see this as the problem inherent in ethnic religion. Maybe when young generations living outside India grow up, when global Sikhs are considered mainstream-normal, caste will be meaningless.


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## Archived_Member4 (May 11, 2008)

Futurekaur ji, you amuse me by this poetic rhetorical device comment lol. I wish I had more time to sit and listen, but I have to get some sleep it is 11pm where I live and I need my sleep. Catch up with you guys on the fill side. Peace


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## pk70 (May 12, 2008)

Singh Ji

With all due respect, I read it in the same way as Furure Kaur as did, "tell this moorakh westener" is used for the questioner, since question continues, it is very obviously questioner is not you.I just wonder why you have taken it as addressed to you. Even as per her admission, it is not addressed to you. May be you just mis understand  it and it is always nice to discuss. Both of you are Sikhs, I felt like sharing with you how I read it. If you feel it otherwise, forgive me. My approach is to listen to others too if any misunderstand occurs.


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## Astroboy (May 19, 2008)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Here's an intruiging topic which needs further and deeper discussion on Muslim Friendship "Dilemma". According to Muslim sources there are 3 main types of Muslims - Sunni, Shi'a and Wahabi. 

My question is : In this 21st Century, does it matter to understand the Muslim background of a person before one befriends him ? I expect to get a mixed bag of responses from all members. Kindly share.

~ namjap ~


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## Astroboy (May 19, 2008)

I would like to know from any muslim members or soon-to-be members if muslims find it easier to make friends from non-muslim communities than other sects of Islam. Let me explain further. As I understand there is some form of enemity between Sunni and Shia communities. For example in Malaysia, most muslims are sunni. A small minority of shia muslims live in fear in Malaysia who have been harassed by the authorities.
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2001-02/10/article7.shtml
http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v3/news.php?id=331528


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## pk70 (May 19, 2008)

Quote namjap "My question is : In this 21st Century, does it matter to understand the Muslim background of a person before one befriends him ? I expect to get a mixed bag of responses from all members. Kindly share."






*Namjap ji*
*I was advised that we cannot compare with Guru ji’s wisdom, now I think, what was the purpose of Guru ji’s wisdom? Just for him only? We cannot learn from that! History states very clearly Guru Nanak panth never accepted and advocated divisions in the society. In the name of Guru Nanak, Guru ji’s own members of family did disgusting deeds, we are supposed to forgive them, a lot of Hindus did heinous crimes against Sikhs during Guru times, we are supposed to forgive them; some radicals Muslims did heinous crimes against Guru ji, we cannot forgive the whole community for centuries and centuries to come. I respect others views but I do not believe Sikhism is all about this. Guru Hargobind Sahib built a Mosque( Guru ki Maseet, still it is there) for Muslims who worked for Him and who kept him in high regards. Jahangir admitted about his order of murdering Fifth Nanak, in that statement he also stated that not only Hindus were being influenced by Guru but also Muslims too. Obviously lots of Muslims were guests of Guru Nanak’s House. Ignoring historical facts is very narrow assessment. We witness our own Sikh fellows’ deceptive behavior every day, when we see some radicals Muslims did bad things with our ignorant Sikh girls, we stand against whole community. In **Europe** Sikh young men married young European girls just to betray them, we never felt sorry for those girls or should we conclude that all Sikh young men are deceptive? We are keen to look at faults of others  but rarely look at ourselves. Coming back to your question namjap ji, I shall just say we should meet and befriend all but never to trust quickly any one regardless of the faith. Give time to the friendship, slowly disguises are lifted and best judgment can be made. Never ever blame whole community on the basis of some. I have friends from other faiths, actually better than friends of my own community; faith has never come between us. May be I am lucky.*


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## Astroboy (May 20, 2008)

PK70 Ji,

From your response I guess it is normal to loose some sleep thinking about what goes on in our active mind. Now I see that you've covered both the pros and cons in your answers. 

Harjas Ji also expressed concern on befriending Muslims by citing many articles as examples.

Bu aren't we becoming over-biased on re-connecting with humanity ?


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