# What Is Prayer? Should Sikhs Pray?



## Harry Haller (Apr 14, 2012)

Gurfatehji

The dictionary definition of prayer is

a. A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship.
b. The act of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or another object of worship.
2. An act of communion with God, a god, or another object of worship, such as in devotion, confession, praise, or thanksgiving: One evening a week, the family would join together in prayer.
3. A specially worded form used to address God, a god, or another object of worship.
4. prayers A religious observance in which praying predominates: morning prayers.
5.
a. A fervent request: Her prayer for rain was granted at last.
b. The thing requested: His safe arrival was their only prayer.
6. The slightest chance or hope: In a storm the mountain climbers won't have a prayer.
7. Law
a. The request of a complainant, as stated in a complaint or in equity, that the court grant the aid or relief solicited.
b. The section of the complaint or bill that contains this request.

I find none of these definitions in line with what I believe our relationship with Creator and Creation should be. It is tempting to believe that God is sitting in his big white chair looking down on us, listening to our prayers, and then waving his magic prayer wand, and granting them, but I find this incompatible with Sikhism. The order of the world, the consonance that we all seek to be in line with, covers the laws of nature, the laws of the world, I do not believe these laws are bent by Creator through prayer, although most other religions seem to do so. 

My father was rushed to hospital last week, with blood poisoning, at one point he was informed that the following 12 hours could bring the situation either way, most people have a 50% chance of survival from blood poisoning, so, it was a critical situation. I am here in the UK, dad is in India, thankfully my mother is an incredibly strong intelligent woman, and she ensured my father had the best care in hospital, and he is now at home recuperating. However, when things were looking a bit freaky, my mother asked me to pray for my dad. I could not, I could not even try, or begin to know how to try, instead, I accepted that what would happen, would happen, and consoled myself that my dad, unlike me, had behaved in consonance all his life, he had done everything in his life, to best of his ability, as a good Sikh, he is honest, truthful, easy going, both my parents are, I reckoned that this gave him the best chance of getting over this, a good clean lifestyle, and a clear peaceful head meant that his body was stronger and less stressed than some, all I could do was support as best I could from so many miles away, and offer pragmatic and realistic help. 

I read and remembered bani to help me when I felt a bit worried, I thought of Guruji watching his beloved Sikhs being tortured, I realised that me being worried was not going to help anyone or anything, so I stopped worrying and left the situation in the hands of Hukam, of the order of the world, but I did not pray. 

I think praying in situations like this makes a mockery of your faith, do I really think Creator is going to say, 'oh well, Harrys praying, I may as well intervene here', that is no basis for faith, it is superstition, ritual, magic, miracles. If as Sikhs we are to have complete acceptance in the order of Creator, why would we pray?


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Apr 14, 2012)

> If as Sikhs we are to have complete acceptance in the order of Creator, why would we pray?


 
Musketeer for the one that prays ,the prayer is within the order,for the one who does not pray ,no prayer is in the order.


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## jasbirkaleka (Apr 14, 2012)

Exactly my views Harry ji, but I could"nt have been so erudite as you.:redturban:


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## eropa234 (Apr 14, 2012)

Praying is waste of time there is no one at the other end listening to it. Even if there were I would say they know better than you and does not require your " recommendations "

I find Gurbani very interesting. The only way to benefit from it is to study it, draw wisdom and truth from it and test it in the lab of daily life. Being a good Sikh is only being a good student nothing more.

Its silly to pray to guru to give some one space in his charn when they are dead one must find that space while they are alive. " Jo karn hout so na kio, pario lobh kay phand, Nanak samio Ram gayo, aab kion rovat aandh.


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## Taranjeet singh (Apr 14, 2012)

Harry ji , I shall begin with Prayer or as we call it.. Ardas. 
Ardas is to establish a connection with God. It soothes the nerves and calms the troubled mind. Yes, God does not have any magic wand. He is Nirlep as well. It is HIS game and Granth sahib explains the rules of game. There is no one in this world except HIM. We act as per His will.

One can classify Ardas into two Broad categories.i.e.for personal achievements/gains/immediate gains related to worldly affairs. This sort of ardas may not carry weight except for the benefits stated above i.e to bring calm and serenity.

Second type of ardas is Panthic i.e prescribed by the Tenth master. Even in that Ardas there is no begging for worldly achievements/affairs.  


A sikh does not pray for worldly achievements as these are gifted. Sikh prays for His grace so that we can develop discriminating intellect/Bibek Budhi and achieve equi- poise when 25 pair of opposites, including pain and pleasure., heat and cold....etc. just appear two sides of coin and does not disturb us. This type of prayer is widely recommended. One may refer to Bani and it would be observed that at places one is asked to do Ardas for Naam Daan and His grace. 

Your question is only obliquely answered as I cannot answer it directly. But I shall not call any prayer as pointless. To ordinary human being these types of situations bring them closer to God. [Dukh Daru sukh Rog Bhaya....]

I shall close it with a line that I remember...

Sabh tudhe passo Mangde....Nit kar Ardas.....

I wish early recovery of Dear Uncle..


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## passingby (Apr 14, 2012)

eropa234 said:


> Praying is waste of time there is no one at the other end listening to it.


Really? This is certainly not Gurbani's position. It might be yours personally but not Gurbani. Can you prove from Gurbani that to ask help from God is wrong?

Gurbani describes Akaal Purakh as the Father, the Mother, the Relative, the Brother, the Protector. If I were to REALLY, EMOTIONALLY ACTUALLY start feeling this way, would I not ask for help from Akaal Purakh when I need it?? If my mind is disturbed through some great fear, lets say some enemy attacking me, would it be wrong for me to pray for strength??

I am surprised that such a simple thing should be brought to question. There are so many Sakhis in which devotees have prayed for help. How can one say that prayer is a useless thing?

Did not Draupadi ask for help when she was being disrobed?? Did she not cry for help? Was that not a prayer? Was it some kind of meditation?? NO IT WAS A DEEPEST, MOST URGENT CRY FOR HELP. IT WAS A PRAYER FOR GOD SAKE!

Man!

If prayer is a waste of time the please explain what this Gurshabad means?


> ਧੰਨਾ ॥ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਤੇਰਾ ਆਰਤਾ ॥ ਜੋ ਜਨ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੰਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਦਾਲਿ ਸੀਧਾ ਮਾਗਉ ਘੀਉ ॥ ਹਮਰਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਪਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀਆ ਛਾਦਨੁ ਨੀਕਾ ॥ ਅਨਾਜੁ ਮਗਉ ਸਤ ਸੀ ਕਾ ॥੧॥ ਗਊ ਭੈਸ ਮਗਉ ਲਾਵੇਰੀ ॥ ਇਕ ਤਾਜਨਿ ਤੁਰੀ ਚੰਗੇਰੀ ॥ ਘਰ ਕੀ ਗੀਹਨਿ ਚੰਗੀ ॥ ਜਨੁ ਧੰਨਾ ਲੇਵੈ ਮੰਗੀ ॥੨॥੪॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 695}





> Even if there were I would say they know better than you and does not require your " recommendations "


Prayer may mean different things to different people but most commonly prayer is a humbly asking for help. It is not a 'recommendation'



> I find Gurbani very interesting. The only way to benefit from it is to study it, draw wisdom and truth from it and test it in the lab of daily life. Being a good Sikh is only being a good student nothing more.


So what does Gurbani teach and what can we learn from it? The thoughts? or the morality? Will the thoughts, the concepts, the rational conclusion bring about divinity in the nature of the mind? Will deducing or deciphering meaning of Gurbani bring all the peace and all the spirituality in our minds? Will it make us Brahmgyanis or something of the sort? 

I wonder why people can miss the point like this. Gurbani is verbal manifestation of the divinity of the Sikh Gurus. It serves many purposes but the most basic purpose it serves is (according to my small understanding):

-teach about Onkaar which is the First Principle of all existence. Attainment or realisation or connecting with this Onkaar through NAAM.

- Reiterate the importance of NAAM again and again and again and again and again......

-Remind, encourage, inspire for practice of NAAM jaap.

Thats it! Thats the main thing! If NAAM is not practiced, we can all become philosophers for sure but we cannot become Bhagats or Sikhs or anything near divine beings. 
I hear this often, 'Gurbani teaches us this and gurbani teaches us that'. People miss the basic point by 100 miles! The basic point is NAAM, people!! NAAM!!

My apologies for this blurting out like this, but I got agitated. I know its contradictory, talking about NAAM and yet be agitated. But I had to say it out aloud like this. Forgive me, please.


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## gurmit kaur mit (Apr 15, 2012)

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki faeh ji... bahut sohne vichar ne ji... akal purakh ji hor charhdikla bakhshan...


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## Luckysingh (Apr 15, 2012)

How can prayer be a waste of time ?
Is there even any point in having faith or religion if you feel there is no one at the other end ??
quote by Harryji
*I think praying in situations like this makes a mockery of your faith*

Well, I think believing prayer is a waste of time- is an actual mockery of faith.

I totally understand the rage felt by Passingby ji above. Come on guys, what are we saying here ???

Quite simply- PRAYER is Talking To God.
If someone asks me to pray for them or something else, I see no wrong in this at all.
They are asking me to talk to God.
There is nothing ritualistic about it, prayer and religion go together.

Prayer can be divided into 2 categories,
1st-No.1 , A Prayer with an expected worldly outcome, and
2nd- No.2  A Prayer with no specific worldly outcome.

For eg. You could pray asking for a certain job, after an interview. The prayer could be along the lines of 'please Lord, I need this job, so please make it possible, because I can then do this..this...this...and that....-This is A Prayer with specific expected outcomes.
OR you could do No.2  a Prayer with regards to the job without any specific demanding outcomes such as ' Please Lord bless me and give me grace so that I may pursue the best possible option, let your WILL be the deciding factor wether I get the job or not, but whatever happens, may that be the best thing for me in the long run, I ask for your blessings'

BOTH No.1 and No.2  can be used to pray.
 No.1, where one asks for that job to happen is because they believe it would be the best thing. If it doesn't happen, then they are not or shouldn't stop praying.
In my opinion it is these No.1 's that have not had the expected specific outcome in instances that are the ones to say praying is a waste of time,-what's the point ?? Whatever happens will happen anyway.
Whereas No.2 prayers are the ones that regardless of outcome are always pleased with the outcome.-
Well, I wouldn't put it as always pleased- as there would be a greater tendency wishing for the job to happen.-BUT, they are more accepting, as they will accept the job Not happening- they would be thankful that the intended decision was still for the best.-They know with time, they will realise why they didn't get the job. 
Was it even worth them wasting their time ?? -One will ask, -Ofcourse it was.-
Its Talking to God.
It's about how spiritual one is. The more spiritual one is the more likely they pray via No.2
The less spiritual, the less they pray altogether.

So, is it wrong to ask ???- No, never.
But, I don't like the idea sometimes of reciting a whole list of items before the lord, I would rather pray for strength in battling your 5 vices and praying that God provides me with what I need.- This is just me, it doesn't mean this is how it should be done.

But, everyone has different needs at different times in their life. So, I don't have any problem with anyone asking to pass their exams, get the scholarship or job ...etc...etc...
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. IF THAT'S HOW YOU PRAY AND TALK TO GOD, THEN FINE..... WHY SHOULD WE JUDGE AND SAY IT'S WRONG OR A WASTE OF TIME!!!!

Even though you can pray via No1 or No.2 method. - I can't say that one is better than the other. Although, No.2 is less likely to make you feel you've wasted your time than No.1 
I feel everyone that prays, prays with both methods at different times in their lives and will carry on doing so.

Praying helps us devolop spirituality, no doubt and spirituality helps strengthen the prayer.- This is why most of us are more than happy when a Gianni does the ardaas mentioning our prayer or outcome. Because, we regard the gianni as more spiritual, regardless of wether he actually is or not.

So, the answer to Harryji's question 'if sikhs should pray ?' is simply -YES- as it helps condition ones spiritually and vice versa, saying No- isn't going to help at all, afterall, there is nothing to lose or any negative effects of praying, no harm can ever be done by it. But you can do more harm to yourself in terms of spirituality by denying the need to pray.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh


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## Harry Haller (Apr 15, 2012)

> Well, I think believing prayer is a waste of time- is an actual mockery of faith.


 
Contemplation, which is thinking hard about the word of God, and figuring out how to implement it, is time well spent. To ask God for anything is a waste of time, and in my view is dangerous


> Quite simply- PRAYER is Talking To God.
> If someone asks me to pray for them or something else, I see no wrong in this at all.
> They are asking me to talk to God.
> There is nothing ritualistic about it, prayer and religion go together.


 
I find so much wrong with this statement, firstly why is anyone asking you? why would they not be able to do it themselves? Do you have a private line to God that they do not have? this is how babas start, by encouraging others they have a magic hotline



> For eg. You could pray asking for a certain job, after an interview. The prayer could be along the lines of 'please Lord, I need this job, so please make it possible, because I can then do this..this...this...and that....-This is A Prayer with specific expected outcomes.
> OR you could do No.2 a Prayer with regards to the job without any specific demanding outcomes such as ' Please Lord bless me and give me grace so that I may pursue the best possible option, let your WILL be the deciding factor wether I get the job or not, but whatever happens, may that be the best thing for me in the long run, I ask for your blessings'


 
I cannot see the point of either, you assume that God is going to change the course of life, or give you special powers, how is this not a belief in magic, in superstition, whilst your wasting time praying for a short cut, you could be spending that time ensuring you have given your best and by giving your best as laid out in bani, being truthful, honest, showing no fear, not arguing



> BOTH No.1 and No.2 can be used to pray.
> No.1, where one asks for that job to happen is because they believe it would be the best thing. If it doesn't happen, then they are not or shouldn't stop praying.
> In my opinion it is these No.1 's that have not had the expected specific outcome in instances that are the ones to say praying is a waste of time,-what's the point ?? Whatever happens will happen anyway.
> Whereas No.2 prayers are the ones that regardless of outcome are always pleased with the outcome.-
> ...


 
Now we enter very dangerous ground, and this exactly my point for not praying in such a manner, instead of looking at yourself, and figuring out what you did not do to get a job, or working out what you could have done to make it happen, you accept it as the will of God. When my father was in hospital, I did not pray, I looked up every reference to blood poisoning I could find, and researched all treatments and symptoms, my mother and brother did the same, between us, we knew exactly what the situation was, and what was being done, are you suggesting I should pray and leave it all to God? That is not the God I recognise, God gives me the brains to seek the knowledge for myself, it is provided in the SGGS, it is the only reference I have and need, it is not a book of chants and spells to be recited and for intricate ceremonies with nice smells and fires, it is wisdom to be learned and to be used.



> But, everyone has different needs at different times in their life. So, I don't have any problem with anyone asking to pass their exams, get the scholarship or job ...etc...etc...
> THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. IF THAT'S HOW YOU PRAY AND TALK TO GOD, THEN FINE..... WHY SHOULD WE JUDGE AND SAY IT'S WRONG OR A WASTE OF TIME!!!!


 
Sorry, I say it is wrong, lets stop learning altogether and just chant and meditate and ask God for help?

And what happens when a wish is granted, when as prayer is heard? it is human nature then to put everything on the prayer and nothing on the learning, the wisdom, is this right?



> Praying helps us devolop spirituality, no doubt and spirituality helps strengthen the prayer.- This is why most of us are more than happy when a Gianni does the ardaas mentioning our prayer or outcome. Because, we regard the gianni as more spiritual, regardless of wether he actually is or not.


 
Learning helps us develop spirituality, I do not believe any God wishes us to be beholdent to it, if anything surely God wishes us to learn and become wise, how is prayer going to make us wise? it is only going to confuse us and sideline our thinking.



> So, the answer to Harryji's question 'if sikhs should pray ?' is simply -YES- as it helps condition ones spiritually and vice versa, saying No- isn't going to help at all, afterall, there is nothing to lose or any negative effects of praying, no harm can ever be done by it. But you can do more harm to yourself in terms of spirituality by denying the need to pray.


 
Sorry I remain unconvinced, there are many negative aspects to prayer, a belief in ritual, superstition and magic for one as against a belief in simple universal truth and order.

It is the difference between fate and Hukam.


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## passingby (Apr 15, 2012)

In Gurbani there are numerous references to mythological stories from Puranas. One of these is the story of an Elephant who was arrogant and thought himself to be quite powerful. One day while taking a bath in a river a crocodile bit his leg and would not let go. At this time, on seeing death right in the face, the inner consciousness of the elephant suddenly awakened and he cried out for help! At that very time Hari/Akaal-Purakh showered his Grace on the elephant and he was freed from the grip of the crocodile.

Look at the reference to this story:


> ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥  ਬਲੁ ਛੁਟਕਿਓ ਬੰਧਨ ਪਰੇ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਤ ਉਪਾਇ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਅਬ ਓਟ ਹਰਿ ਗਜ ਜਿਉ ਹੋਹੁ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੫੩॥
> (1429, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)


There are numerous references in Gurbani to this same story. 
My small understanding is that when there is some great trouble in one's life the mind is moved from its deepest recesses. This is in-fact a very favourable time turning to Akaal-Purakh for help. This is the time when ego is truly humbled and one truly 'falls on the feet of Lord'. In such a situation when one prays with deep humility and sense of helplessness Akaal-Purakh showers help and grace. Of course this is not a matter of right of the individual soul. So it cannot be said that if somebody prays he should receive exactly what he is asking for. Thats for Akaal-Purakh to decide.

In my personal life I have been in trouble a number of times. In a few of those times I felt that everything was over, especially because I was truly at fault and would have deserved the negative results. I felt very ashamed for my weak and unwise actions. The situation humbled me and I would pray from inside all the time. Whenever my mind stirred up I would start asking for help. Sometimes I would cry in my room, cursing myself for everything. There was a huge stress on my brain, like I was carrying a ton of weight. But in the end Guruji showered his mercy on me and the people in authority started favouring me even though I did not expect them to. All due to Guruji's grace. 

No brothers, prayer is not useless. In fact when one has done everything within one's power and yet the danger does not end then it is the usually the only thing one can do.

Brothers, don't you remember the story when Maharaja Ranjit Singh along with his army had to cross the river Attock but it was in full spate and there was no way to cross it? At that time Ranjit Singh humbled down from inside and he humbly performed an Ardaas and the river soon came down to a comfortable level.

If a person's mind is already strong enough to stay calm and accept what is happening as the Hukam of Akaal Purakh then such a person does not need to pray for help. He just continues to meditate on NAAM. Example of such persons are Bhai Mani Singh, Bhai Taru Singh Shahid. They had cultivated a very high spiritual consciousness, such that pain and fear could not disturb the mind.
But for a person who has not trained his mind to forget everything and concentrate on NAAM, praying for help is not only natural but is recommended as well, because it humbles one from inside and connects one with Akaal Purakh.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Apr 15, 2012)

> Sorry I remain unconvinced,


 
Then my Musketeer friend to remain unconvinced is in the order.http://fora.tv/2009/08/14/Karen_Arm...m_of_Socrates_to_Modern_Dialog_Says_Armstrong


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## passingby (Apr 15, 2012)

I again put forward the following shabad of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It truly depicts that we have to ask Akaal Purakh for everything because He is the Source of all existence. Before saying that praying and asking from Akaal-Purakh is useless this Shabad needs to be interpreted:



> ਧੰਨਾ ॥ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਤੇਰਾ ਆਰਤਾ ॥ ਜੋ ਜਨ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੰਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਦਾਲਿ ਸੀਧਾ ਮਾਗਉ ਘੀਉ ॥ ਹਮਰਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਪਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀਆ ਛਾਦਨੁ ਨੀਕਾ ॥ ਅਨਾਜੁ ਮਗਉ ਸਤ ਸੀ ਕਾ ॥੧॥ ਗਊ ਭੈਸ ਮਗਉ ਲਾਵੇਰੀ ॥ ਇਕ ਤਾਜਨਿ ਤੁਰੀ ਚੰਗੇਰੀ ॥ ਘਰ ਕੀ ਗੀਹਨਿ ਚੰਗੀ ॥ ਜਨੁ ਧੰਨਾ ਲੇਵੈ ਮੰਗੀ ॥੨॥੪॥
> (695, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)


Of course the things prayed for can be interpreted to have a symbolic meaning rather than just material things but they are still things being asked for. There is 'asking'. 

Please also do not think that I am advocating asking for material things. No, not at all. To accept things as Hukam is the higher state of mind. But religious/spiritual path is not just for the already higher mind persons. Its also for the lay people who are struggling with fear and attachment.

Gurbani says the best 'asking' is asking for NAAM. That is the highest form of asking. But this does not mean one cannot ask for other things. 

There are 4 purusharthas or aims of life, termed as ਚਾਰਿ ਪਦਾਰਥ in Gurbani: 
1. Dharma
2. Artha
3. Kama
4. Moksha

All 4 of these can be 'asked' for:


> ਚਾਰਿ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮਾਗੈ ॥ ਸਾਧ ਜਨਾ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਲਾਗੈ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਪੁਨਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਮਿਟਾਵੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਦ ਗਾਵੈ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਲੋਰੈ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਇਹ ਹਉਮੈ ਛੋਰੈ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਤੇ ਡਰੈ ॥ ਸਾਧ ਜਨਾ ਕੀ ਸਰਨੀ ਪਰੈ ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਜਨ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦਰਸ ਪਿਆਸਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਸਾ ॥੫॥
> (Sukhmani Sahib, Pg 266 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)


Now, another request my brother. Please read the following lines slowly and try to connect with the feeling expressed. Before deciding that praying is wrong please ponder over the meaning and the feeling expressed here:


> ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
> Dayv-Gandhaaree, Fifth Mehl:
> ਅਪੁਨੇ ਹਰਿ ਪਹਿ ਬਿਨਤੀ ਕਹੀਐ ॥
> Offer your prayer to your Lord.
> ...


Sikhi is the marga of Bhakti. The Bhagwan is everything for the Bhakta. The Bhakta tries to dive deep into his love for Bhagwan. Thats is his main target. But a Bhakta is also human. Therefore whenever he is in pain he cries out to hi Bhagwan for help. And Bhagwan always comes forward to help the Bhakta. This is the ideal of Bhakti. We may or may not reach this state.


> ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
> Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:
> ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮੁਸਕਲੁ ਅਤਿ ਬਣੈ ਢੋਈ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਦੇਇ ॥
> When you are confronted with terrible hardships, and no one offers you any support,
> ...


Do you see how this shabad starts by referring to material things and suffering but then progresses to higher spiritual targets?
This is Bhakti. A sincere Bhakta starts with material things and concerns but gradually leaves all the material concerns behind and merges into his Bhagwan.

Respect and love.


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## Taranjeet singh (Apr 15, 2012)

Respected Passingby veer ji,

Very many thanks for your posts. I am deeply moved by the efforts you have put in and for making this thread meaningful.

Regards!


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## Harry Haller (Apr 15, 2012)

Passingbyji

I am moved by your post, it is hard not to be, but the above shabad states that is the rememberence of God that is important. To me that is remembering the word of God, the Shabad Guru. I will confess that I too in my past have prayed hard, very hard, and, yes, I have too have never been let down. I also have cried my eyes out and been on my knees with hands folded together, although we are talking 17 years ago.I stopped...., I stopped because it was all too easy, I was in a cycle of doing bad deeds, living a bad life, but praying whenever it all got bad, and every time, I carried on my sordid life, until one day when everything went wrong, instead of prayer, and wishing to break the cycle, I decided to meet my maker, but my efforts were hampered, and what followed was 15 years of humility, acceptence, and atheism.I tried to put right all I had done wrong, and it has left me in no doubt that prayer, distance healing, people with spiritual powers all exist, and all can have an effect, but they are nothing more than diversions and light shows.They distract from the purpose of life, to learn, to gain knowledge, and also, to realise and suffer consequences of our actions.

And that is why I do not pray, Hukam is there for a reason, even if after doing my best, who am I to question it, but I would rather spend precious time and energy doing my best than reaching for the batphone.

Our Gurus 'prayed' in bad times, but I would say it was more of a rememberence and acceptence than a request for change


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## passingby (Apr 15, 2012)

You are of course right Harry ji. There is a tendency to revert back to lower living after the crisis has passed. It happens with me, it happened with you, it happens with every one. I agree completely.
And yes to completely and utterly accept Hukam is what Gurbani preaches to us to reach and aspire. That is unquestionably correct. When one surrenders to Hukam one's mind becomes firm and it is then that fear truly vanishes away.

I remember a story of a zen monk who was resting in his room when his disciple rushed to him saying, 'Master, master a fire has broken out in the building!'. 
Master- 'How far is it?'.
Disciple-'Just a block away!'
Master- 'Okay come to me when it comes near'
And the Master went back to rest, completely undisturbed!

A while later the disciple comes rushing again:
'Master! the fire has come closer!'
Master- 'How far is it now?'
Disciple- 'Just half a block away!'
Master- 'Okay come to me when comes nearer'
And he went back to his rest yet again!

A while later the disciple comes rushing again:
'Master! the fire has come even closer!'
Master- 'How far is it now?'
Disciple- 'Just two houses away!'
Master- 'Okay come to me when it comes nearer'
And he went back to his rest yet again! Completely undisturbed!

Still again a while later the disciple comes rushing:
'Master! the fire is very close!'
Master- 'How far is it now?'
Disciple- 'Just the next house!'
Master- 'Okay bring me my sandals, lets move leave this place.'
And the Master leaves the house to safety very calmly and undisturbed.
Such is the mental poise of the someone who accepts Hukam. 

We all have read and heard about such people. But personally I have no hope of attaining any stability or respectable inner strength if I do not fully indulge in a psychologically transforming practice, which in case of Sikh path is NAAM japa. How else can I expect such a strength for myself just from volition?

Just yesterday I was reading recorded conversations of Mirra, the Mother of Aurobindo Ashram. She says:


> I have also  come to realize that for this sadhana of  the body, the mantra is essential. Sri  Aurobindo gave none; he said  that one should be able to do all the work without  having to resort to  external means. Had he reached the point where we are now,  he would  have seen that the purely psychological method is inadequate and that  a  japa is necessary, because only japa has a direct action on the body.  So I  had to find the method all alone, to find my mantra by myself. But  now that  things are ready, I have done ten years of work in a few  months. That is the  difficulty, it requires time ...
> And I repeat my mantra  constantly when I am  awake and even when I sleep. I say it even when I am  getting dressed,  when I eat, when I work, when I speak with others; it is  there, just  behind in the background, all the time, all the time.
> In fact, you can immediately see  the  difference between those who have a mantra and those who don't. With  those  who have no mantra, even if they have a strong habit of  meditation or  concentration, something around them remains hazy and  vague. Whereas the japa  imparts to those who practice it a kind of  precision, a kind of solidity: an  armature. They become galvanized, as  it were.


This passage was very inspiring, so I thought I'll share.


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## Luckysingh (Apr 15, 2012)

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2> 
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<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Well, I think believing prayer is a waste of time- is an actual mockery of faith.

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H- Contemplation, which is thinking hard about the word of God, and figuring out how to implement it, is time well spent. To ask God for anything is a waste of time, and in my view is dangerous
L- How can asking God be a waste, Asking is not telling. Bowing down, kneeling and asking is an act of respect and humility. How can this be dangerous
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Quite simply- PRAYER is Talking To God.
If someone asks me to pray for them or something else, I see no wrong in this at all.
They are asking me to talk to God.
There is nothing ritualistic about it, prayer and religion go together.

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H- I find so much wrong with this statement, firstly why is anyone asking you? why would they not be able to do it themselves? Do you have a private line to God that they do not have? this is how babas start, by encouraging others they have a magic hotline

L- this was a reference to your comment when requested to pray. You thought of it as unnecessary and pointless. If someone asks me to pray for someones health or well being, I find that they are asking me to do a spiritual act of goodness- what's wrong with that ?? It's not about private lines, the more that commit to prayer the better.
Your comment that-why should I be asked ? do I have a private line to god ?- Is like someone asking why do you follow sikhism ?- because you get express tickets to salvation ??

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>For eg. You could pray asking for a certain job, after an interview. The prayer could be along the lines of 'please Lord, I need this job, so please make it possible, because I can then do this..this...this...and that....-This is A Prayer with specific expected outcomes.
OR you could do No.2 a Prayer with regards to the job without any specific demanding outcomes such as ' Please Lord bless me and give me grace so that I may pursue the best possible option, let your WILL be the deciding factor wether I get the job or not, but whatever happens, may that be the best thing for me in the long run, I ask for your blessings'

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H- I cannot see the point of either, you assume that God is going to change the course of life, or give you special powers, how is this not a belief in magic, in superstition, whilst your wasting time praying for a short cut, you could be spending that time ensuring you have given your best and by giving your best as laid out in bani, being truthful, honest, showing no fear, not arguing

L- I do NOT assume that my course of life will change with a sudden prayer, no one that prays does this. It's an act that is used along with ALL our abilities.
Giving your best as laid out in bani is all the qualities that we need plus prayer if it helps. Bani mentions acts of prayer throughout.
Everything we do in life from learning, doing and giving our best is not all we do. We still have hope, no matter what we hope for. What better way of formatting your hope in a prayer ?? 

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>BOTH No.1 and No.2 can be used to pray.
No.1, where one asks for that job to happen is because they believe it would be the best thing. If it doesn't happen, then they are not or shouldn't stop praying.
In my opinion it is these No.1 's that have not had the expected specific outcome in instances that are the ones to say praying is a waste of time,-what's the point ?? Whatever happens will happen anyway.
Whereas No.2 prayers are the ones that regardless of outcome are always pleased with the outcome.-
Well, I wouldn't put it as always pleased- as there would be a greater tendency wishing for the job to happen.-BUT, they are more accepting, as they will accept the job Not happening- they would be thankful that the intended decision was still for the best.-They know with time, they will realise why they didn't get the job. 
Was it even worth them wasting their time ?? -One will ask, -Ofcourse it was.-
Its Talking to God.
It's about how spiritual one is. The more spiritual one is the more likely they pray via No.2
The less spiritual, the less they pray altogether 
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H- Now we enter very dangerous ground, and this exactly my point for not praying in such a manner, instead of looking at yourself, and figuring out what you did not do to get a job, or working out what you could have done to make it happen, you accept it as the will of God. When my father was in hospital, I did not pray, I looked up every reference to blood poisoning I could find, and researched all treatments and symptoms, my mother and brother did the same, between us, we knew exactly what the situation was, and what was being done, are you suggesting I should pray and leave it all to God? That is not the God I recognise, God gives me the brains to seek the knowledge for myself, it is provided in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it is the only reference I have and need, it is not a book of chants and spells to be recited and for intricate ceremonies with nice smells and fires, it is wisdom to be learned and to be used.

L- The above is you saying, you were either going to pray or do some research. But, why not do both ? No one is sayiing for you to just sit and pray, but you can still pray for hope and do your research. No one is telling you that a prayer is your magic formula. Prayer is what you and only you make it.

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>But, everyone has different needs at different times in their life. So, I don't have any problem with anyone asking to pass their exams, get the scholarship or job ...etc...etc...
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. IF THAT'S HOW YOU PRAY AND TALK TO GOD, THEN FINE..... WHY SHOULD WE JUDGE AND SAY IT'S WRONG OR A WASTE OF TIME!!!!


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H-Sorry, I say it is wrong, lets stop learning altogether and just chant and meditate and ask God for help?

And what happens when a wish is granted, when as prayer is heard? it is human nature then to put everything on the prayer and nothing on the learning, the wisdom, is this right?
L-Again, no one is saying you don't learn or use wisdom. Prayer is somethong you do from within, along with all activities done from outside. NO-one is sayong only act from within or the outside.
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Praying helps us devolop spirituality, no doubt and spirituality helps strengthen the prayer.- This is why most of us are more than happy when a Gianni does the ardaas mentioning our prayer or outcome. Because, we regard the gianni as more spiritual, regardless of wether he actually is or not.


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H-Learning helps us develop spirituality, I do not believe any God wishes us to be beholdent to it, if anything surely God wishes us to learn and become wise, how is prayer going to make us wise? it is only going to confuse us and sideline our thinking.

L- learning is a huge element of life from birth to the last breath.Why are you saying that only learning helps develop spirituality ? Any spirituality you have, is it all attained from learning and learning solely ??
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>So, the answer to Harryji's question 'if sikhs should pray ?' is simply -YES- as it helps condition ones spiritually and vice versa, saying No- isn't going to help at all, afterall, there is nothing to lose or any negative effects of praying, no harm can ever be done by it. But you can do more harm to yourself in terms of spirituality by denying the need to pray.


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H-Sorry I remain unconvinced, there are many negative aspects to prayer, a belief in ritual, superstition and magic for one as against a belief in simple universal truth and order.

It is the difference between fate and Hukam.<!-- google_ad_section_end --> 

L- What negative aspects ? You mean false hopes ? That is not the same thing.
Like I said, if you assume prayer is a magic formula, then you have the wrong idea.-Talking to God, does not guarantee a magic answer.
Tell me of someone who has caused themselves harm with prayer ?

You seem to be mixed up with hope, prayer and magic miracles. You need to distinguish between the three and understand that prayer is talking to God, based on hopes you have.
At the end of the day it's personal, wether you do it or not. We have no right to judge and say that one is wasting their time or to be critical for that matter.
You may feel there is no need to pray know. But we shouldn't deny it as one day your hopes can all mount up and you will be praying without even realising.

If talking and prayer helps someone to get closer to god and become more spiritual, then I cannot live in denial wether I pray or not.
For the record, I'm being positive with regards to prayer in this post but I, myself, hardly ever pray in the sense of giving a list of requests. 
Infact, I only ever ask the lord for strength and wisdom and thank him for all I have already which includes being alive and able bodied, especially after my experiences.

I sense that maybe you have had some No1 hopes without the prayer part. These may have let you down which is why I sense some anger and resentment towards the act of prayer.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh


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## gurmit kaur mit (Apr 15, 2012)

I agree with harry....Tera bhana meetha lage... if you want to do Ardas then ask only for---Har Nam pdarath Nanak mange...or Mangna mangan neeka harjas gur te mangna...the woldly affairs are desided already by Waheguru ji Himself.hona ohi hai jo waheguru ji ne nishchit karke rakhya hai.. jo sade kite karma anusar hi lekhe ch aana hai.Jo waheguru ji karde ne thik hi karde ne...per ik gal hor hai sanu panthak ardas ton vi tutna nhi chahida.Jo Nitnem ton baad savere te shami rehras ton baad ardas sikh rehat maryada vich likhi hai us maryadaton alag hona vi galat hai...Ardas sirf apne karaj di poorti vaste apne swarth vaste hi karni wrong hai. ki pta jini kise chiz di tuhanu lod hai uston jada kise ho prani di vi hove te waheguru tuhade bjaye uhnu dena chahan tan asi apni jidd mari jayiye waheguru ji eh chiz main de nhi tan mera vishvas tere ton uth jayega.. eo jihi ardas totally wrong hai...baki sarbat de bhale di ardas karni jaroori vi hai te panthak ekta vi kayam rakhdi hai.


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 15, 2012)

passingby ji thanks for your post.  I have some observations and thoughts for discourse.

I was reading though the quoted Bani in your post as below,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...is-prayer-should-sikhs-pray-2.html#post163561

I saw the following as focus in these sabads,

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*ਮਾਨੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨੀ ਲਾਗਉ ...*
_A message in humility and recognizing of the creator and so following_* respectfully
*
 


*ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਣੁ ....
*
_The recognition of the truth as creator's virtues_

 


*ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਓਸੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ...*
 _Remembering the supreme creator__ in the heart_
 


* ਰੰਗੁ ਨ ਲਗੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ....*
_Forsaking of the creator in presence and self realization_

 


*ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਇਓ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ...*
_Forgetting the creator in the heart_

 
  What these tell us is the remembering and non-remembering aspects of the creator in Sikhism.  So this is part of being forever aware while warning against lapsing..

Now how does Ardas or Sikh prayer fits into this?

For me it is pretty simple and straightforward.1.  Participating in a Group Prayer/Ardas



A collective recognition of the creator at any given point in time with our fellow humans
Possible support to other in doubt, or seeking support or any other positive purpose
2.  Personal Ardas/Prayer

This I find particularly a very personal, intimate and truthful opportunity to remind selves, to have a check point, a marker to observe

Some thoughts that come to mind from my recollections over time that I have silently stated inside of me,



Let me not do bad to others
Wellness for all
May I be guided on a righteous path
May I have the strength to do good for others
etc.
In the above contexts, I find the Ardas or Prayer to be extremely worthwhile and actually quite a "bang for the buck" in terms of its effect and possible value.

Just some thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## passingby (Apr 16, 2012)

It might be helpful to make a distinction between an inferior and a superior types of prayer. 

The inferior prayer is of a kind that comes out of a desire at a superficial working of the mind. It does not have a root at a deep level of the asker's heart. It does not come from deep and therefore does not rise high either. It does not elevate one's consciousness, it does not become a potent energy in the divine sphere. It is born out of a movement of the mind which is located at the surface. Its stirred up out of baser movements of the mind. And it is not heartfelt. 
An inferior prayer can also be completely 'un-felt', that is devoid of any true feeling at all. I believe such prayers the most common ones. I often say a few words while bowing in front of SGGS, most of these are ceremoniously said and do not come from heart. Therefore these are never answered either. 

The other kind, the superior kind of prayer is rooted deep within the heart. In fact heart is the only place where a true prayer can be located. Such a prayer cannot be rooted (by its nature) in volition and reasoning. Its source is heart and its form is emotion. It stirs up one's being. And its quality is of effecting a surrender in one's attitude. It is always humbling. In fact I would say the a prayer's superiority is directly proportional to the humility it comes out with.
It can also be noted that not everything which comes from heart can be taken to be pure and higher and worthy. Humility and sincerity are marks of purer and higher things. Along with these there is another characteristic of the superior prayer. It is borne out of a state of mind which is concentrated and silent. The common chattering of the mind, the dialogue which goes on inside our heads is conspicuous with its absence. This is replaced with a current of urgency, and a pointed movement of the mind towards higher divine source.


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## Harry Haller (Apr 16, 2012)

Luckyji

some comments




> L- How can asking God be a waste, Asking is not telling. Bowing down, kneeling and asking is an act of respect and humility. How can this be dangerous



In my view it is dangerous because you are putting responsibility on God, and taking it away from yourself, this is not what Sikhism is about, it is about using bani to give life your best shot.



> L- this was a reference to your comment when requested to pray. You thought of it as unnecessary and pointless. If someone asks me to pray for someones health or well being, I find that they are asking me to do a spiritual act of goodness- what's wrong with that ?? It's not about private lines, the more that commit to prayer the better.
> Your comment that-why should I be asked ? do I have a private line to god ?- Is like someone asking why do you follow sikhism ?- because you get express tickets to salvation ??



I am still not sure why anyone would wish another to pray for them, I find this third party prayer system quite depressing, if you cannot see how that puts you on the same platform a a drug dealer, then I am not quite sure how I can explain it any further. Also I do not follow Sikhism to find salvation, I follow Sikhism as it gives me a framework with which to live my life and get the best chance of a happy life, salvation if bestowed on me is in the hands of Creator, it is not something I have any interest in. 




> L- I do NOT assume that my course of life will change with a sudden prayer, no one that prays does this. It's an act that is used along with ALL our abilities.
> Giving your best as laid out in bani is all the qualities that we need plus prayer if it helps. Bani mentions acts of prayer throughout.
> Everything we do in life from learning, doing and giving our best is not all we do. We still have hope, no matter what we hope for. What better way of formatting your hope in a prayer ??



Please quote these acts of prayer so that I may either offer my own understanding, or concede your argument in full. 



> L- The above is you saying, you were either going to pray or do some research. But, why not do both ? No one is sayiing for you to just sit and pray, but you can still pray for hope and do your research. No one is telling you that a prayer is your magic formula. Prayer is what you and only you make it.



You contradict yourself here brother, on the one hand you are saying prayer is not a magic formula, on the other, prayer is what you make it. Well, in my view, many people DO make it a magic formula, along the lines of do this for me, and I will do so many paths, so many good deeds etc. 



> L- learning is a huge element of life from birth to the last breath.Why are you saying that only learning helps develop spirituality ? Any spirituality you have, is it all attained from learning and learning solely ??



Any spirituality I may have is all attained from learning, and is *in spite* of anything that I may have learned through prayer. 




> L- What negative aspects ? You mean false hopes ? That is not the same thing.
> Like I said, if you assume prayer is a magic formula, then you have the wrong idea.-Talking to God, does not guarantee a magic answer.
> Tell me of someone who has caused themselves harm with prayer ?



With pleasure...

My father has a friend, all his life had been religious, he had prayed, kept his hair, followed all the rituals and ceremonies that one does, he also had a heart condition, which required him to take tablets, he decided that prayer was a better course of action than the drugs, when they admitted him to hospital, he had not taken any drugs for 18 months, he died shortly after. 

Now Luckyji, you may be an intelligent enlightened individual who sees prayer as communication with God, but there are many many people who are deeply superstitious, and who would convince themselves that life is all down to how  happy or unhappy they have made God. Guru Nanakji tried to free these miserable souls from this game, only for Sikhism to end up at the same juncture thanks to those that would say ' just do your best and God will do the rest'. 



> You seem to be mixed up with hope, prayer and magic miracles. You need to distinguish between the three and understand that prayer is talking to God, based on hopes you have.



The arrows you are aiming at me seem to be striking you straight back and you cannot even see it. You are saying I am mixing hope, prayer and magic, yet then tell me I need to distinguish between the three and understand that prayer is talking to god about hopes, to what end? to the end of getting them granted surely, not through effort, but through magic, who exactly is mixing what up here brother, you or me?



> At the end of the day it's personal, wether you do it or not. We have no right to judge and say that one is wasting their time or to be critical for that matter.
> You may feel there is no need to pray know. But we shouldn't deny it as one day your hopes can all mount up and you will be praying without even realising.



Hopes? hopes for what? I have no hopes, I have goals, but frankly, I could not care less if those goals are not reached, I find the thought of praying for my fathers life extremely distasteful, I find the thought of paying some Gyani to mention him in Ardass extremely distasteful, who am I to even consider bothering Creator with my puny requests, when Creator has already done everything that can be done by giving as all a lifestyle choice. All I can do is thank Creator NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS for giving us all the chance to live as was intended, and get as close to perfection as we can, without paying lip service to an idol. For that is what we create in our head when we pray, an idol, we are not better than our Hindu friends who would give milk to a stone statue, except we do it in our heads. 



> For the record, I'm being positive with regards to prayer in this post but I, myself, hardly ever pray in the sense of giving a list of requests.



Well it is good to know you hardly ever pray whilst giving a list of requests, I on the other hand, never pray whilst presenting a list. 


I





> nfact, I only ever ask the lord for strength and wisdom and thank him for all I have already which includes being alive and able bodied, especially after my experiences.



Who do you do this for Luckyji, for 'him' of for yourself?



> I sense that maybe you have had some No1 hopes without the prayer part. These may have let you down which is why I sense some anger and resentment towards the act of prayer.



Nope, if you had read my post above you would have noted that everytime I have prayed, my prayers have been answered, and for the most obscure and disgusting things I would add.. No, my current stance is down to Alfie, my dog. Alfie is now unable to actually get up, so I have to carry him out to the garden for toilet, and my wife spoon feeds him food. He is 12, a good Sikh dog, an ex guide dog, he has spent years in sewa, we are going to make a decision to put him down soon if he cannot get any better, as it is unfair to keep him going, but every time we decide this, he seems to perk up, and will drag me out for a long walk. Hundreds of pounds of tests have shown nothing, the Vet puts it down to old age. However, a month ago, he perked up hugely, he was a different dog, and then I got a mail from an SPNer who had read about his condition and outlined what was wrong with him, and offered prayers for him. My wife loves that dog, possibly more than she loves me!, so now she is asking me to contact this SPNer, and ask him to pray again, now if my wife being fairly atheist in her outlook, can be won over by this, then I consider anyone could. Its like a drug, its addictive, and it closes your eyes to what is happening in the real world, around you, I am against any sort of 'asking prayer' because it diverts attention, focus, it makes you a puppet, it makes you reliant on those whose prayers work, it wastes time, it encourages belief in the supernatural and in ritual

As a final note, I would like to say that I think about God constantly, not in a prayer format, but in trying to follow Hukam, in trying to be a better person, I do not pray for this, I read bani and try and see the wisdom in certain actions, see where I am going wrong, 

I love Creation, I love Creator, the bond between the three of us is strong and gets stronger each day, I ask only for the strength and grace to follow Hukam, and even that is never said or thought in words, Creator knows my heart, can see inside it, knows exactly what I am, why would I assume otherwise and share a few snippets when Creator knows everything ?


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## Luckysingh (Apr 16, 2012)

Harry ji
Reading the above post, I can see too many points that in turn I can stress and argue with in another post. You will do the same and so on..... There are far too many posts that argue in this manner. I'm not here to participate in this style of dialogue, I have no reason to. The forum is abouth sikhism, and we debate and learn from each other in this manner. By arguing every sentence quoted no one ends up learning, it becomes a battle of egos.- I'm right and you are wrong,...blah ...blah... This progress from debating to arguing is not my method of conversing. I dont' have the time or need for this activity and don't wish to put ego at play- battling it, is hard enough.

When I participate in any post, I talk on a universal level and not just about me,me,me.
I don't say this is me, this is what I do, so accept it. I try to talk from a general and majority, to make it easier for others reading this to understand, especially the young youth.

If you have not gained any ounce of spirituality from prayer, then that is personal to your very life so far-. It is not something you should use to encourage others.
There are many people who are only closer to God or have a strong belief in faith thanks to prayer. I don't think there are as many who have drifted away from the lord because of prayer.
When one is in times of distress, when no answers seem clear, when desperation is high, they mostly turn to prayer. Even someone who has no or little faith eventually turns to prayer in these moments of need. 
I have come across many people whohave a strong hold on sikhism and belief in God because it somehow started with prayer.

I have seen young women that are critically ill on their deathbeds with only a 30% chance of survival, The medical team doing the best they can, the family relying on them and wanting to be able to do something if they can. When they ask, how can they help. What does everyone say?-Pray- Is what they are told by the majority, just pray.
What can you say to her 5 yr old kid, how can you possibly explain what 30% odds mean?? Even the 5yr old, will undertstand what you mean when you say 'pray' to God.
The kid will think if I pray, someone in more control may even listen and make my mummy well.!!!!
What is wrong with this ?? Am I going to tell this little kid there is no point praying if he asks me ??

As I stated above, I am also aware of many people who have in turn, turned to God and religion after their experiences with prayer. Many who once didn't believe in a God or religion.
These beings have faced some difficult encounters where the only thing left for them to do was 'pray'.-After praying, if their lives turned around for the better and this praying convinced them of a Lord, then who am I to deny the power of prayer. Why should we suggest that it is a waste of time????

Wether I pray or not does not matter, to me just asking for forgiveness is enough. Since we all repeatedly sin all the time , be it directly or indirectly. When I say sin, it means anything from negative thoughts or actions, saying something unintentionally that offends someone, ego, greed, infact all the five vices, I consider as sin.

Praying for forgiveness is somethiing every one of us can do. Will it help ?
We can't answer that, but there is no harm in trying.

I hope you understand what I'm saying, that we shouldn't discourage anyone from praying.
Praying has bought many closer to god, no doubt.
To the little 5yr old kid if his mother gets better, his prayer is going to seem like a magic formula- nothing wrong with that, Atleast the kid will realise that their must be a God.

So, Harryji after reading your comments about prayer, I do not at all feel that I should discourage anyone from praying. It's just not the sort of thing I would do, when I know of many as described above that have gained benefit in some regard.

Bhul Chuk marf
Forgive if I have offended although I will pray for forgiveness.

Lucky Singh


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## Harry Haller (Apr 17, 2012)

Luckyji

I will keep this brief, and leave it up to you as to whether you feel a reply is merited. 

1. The style of dialogue was initiated by your goodself, not by me. 
2. When one talks of me, one is stating the preferred course of action for the writer, when one talks on a universal level, one is stating the preferred course of action universally. 
3. I am not encouraging the concept of non prayer, I am asking to define prayer, is prayer a request? is it a conversation with the essence of Creator in your head? is it debate with God? 
4. There is no concept of sin in Sikhism. Asking for forgiveness for sins is an Abrahamic concept not a Sikh one. 
5. The fact that a 5 year old sees prayer as a magic formula is the very concept I have a problem with. The fact that you see no problem with this, to me, intimates you are comfortable with this concept, so we differ here, I accept your understanding and your arguments associated with it, lets move on. 
6. If you feel so inclined, please quote bani in support of your argument, so that we may all offer our interpretation and learn something together. 

You have not offended me at all, we are debating and discussing from stances very very far away, I agree that dissecting each argument is pointless, so if you are willing, lets narrow the debate down to what is important. 

I will happily admit to having a complete aversion to prayer, which means I am taking an extreme view, however, even I would admit I need to find a middle ground on the subject, so your arguments and debating so far have shifted me a few notches towards the middle, and I thank you for that. 

Best wishes and kind regards

Your brother 

Harry


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## Astroboy (Apr 17, 2012)

Pray for Naam.


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## jasbirkaleka (Apr 17, 2012)

I once started a thread, "Does God Love Sycophants" some-what on similar lines.


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 17, 2012)

Astroboy said:


> Pray for Naam.


Astroboy ji define Naam if it is not all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and all of what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji directs us towards. Basically recognizing one creator, all of creation and living in consonance through understanding of such.  I don't think there are short cuts but perhaps you can elaborate.

Naam is not a name and Naam is not a word but understanding and living through that understanding.  Am I wrong?

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Astroboy (Apr 17, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Astroboy ji define Naam if it is not all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and all of what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji directs us towards. Basically recognizing one creator, all of creation and living in consonance through understanding of such.  I don't think there are short cuts but perhaps you can elaborate.
> 
> Naam is not a name and Naam is not a word but understanding and living through that understanding.  Am I wrong?
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



You are not wrong, Bhai Ji. We all have a minimal understanding of Naam as in Gurbani. There are so many quotes in Gurbani about Naam that only a very learner-ed person (Gyani) can sum it all up and provide a concise explanation. 

Naam is not name that is for sure. 

One of the Gurbani Quotes about Naam is at page 958 Line 1
Someone may want to view the whole shabad by posting it here.

Remember, I am speaking of the Naam as referred in Gurbani. The transliteration can, at times, be off course.


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## Harry Haller (Apr 17, 2012)

Astroboy said:


> You are not wrong, Bhai Ji. We all have a minimal understanding of Naam as in Gurbani. There are so many quotes in Gurbani about Naam that only a very learner-ed person (Gyani) can sum it all up and provide a concise explanation.
> 
> Naam is not name that is for sure.
> 
> ...



Astroboyji, 

I am slightly confused, my understanding of naam is to be in complete consonance with Creation. Your above quote seems to be overcomplicating a very simple concept, having looked at the quote suggested, the english translation (both of them) contradict your post by translating it as name, for sure 

Also your statement that only a Gyani can explain this mirrors the Vedic setup, that only the super qualified can bring meaning to words and concepts, and others may be unqualified to understand without 'the right person'. 

Also, your initial post, pray for naam, therefore is suggesting we pray for this consonance to Creation, again, my understanding is that we do not need to pray for it, we merely interact with Creation as per Hukam, as per the way a Sikh should interact, with honesty, bravery, no fear, compassion, love, and we will find that state of naam. what do you think brother?


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## Harry Haller (Apr 17, 2012)

jasbirkaleka said:


> I once started a thread, "Does God Love Sycophants" some-what on similar lines.



I read your post ji, and found it extremely relevant. The problem we face is that the pragmatism that Sikhism was founded on has been replaced by a lot of Vedic practices that are lauded now as Sikhi ones. 

I find it hard to believe that Guru Nanakji, being so keen as he was to distance himself from rituals and chanting, would embrace the whole hippy ' lose yourself in the sound of the words' type of worship. He believed it was wrong to carry out pointless acts of devotion (giving water to the sun god), he believed it was wrong to confine God to a certain area (Mecca). Go to any Gurdwara and see his legacy, exactly what he preached against is carried out in his name every day. 

Sikhism has become a poor imitation of Hinduism, and the fawning only increases as time goes on.

The biggest problem in my view are the current english translations, it is absolutely vital if Sikhism is to break out of the Punjabi way of thinking and become a world religion that the original spirit of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is presented in the best way possible to mirror the thinking and message of the original writers, but I have yet to find an english translation that sticks to what I believe is the original message. The closest I have read to date are the writings by Ambarsariaji, and I say to you sir, those writings will be here long after you have gone, I cannot think of a better legacy, like artists before you, they will find their place long, long after you have departed this Earth, so please do not judge reaction to them in the present time, or give up, when things come full circle, as they always do, you will be remembered for your vision and far sighted view

Gurfateh!


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## Luckysingh (Apr 17, 2012)

Harry ji, It is good that you don't have a complete aversion to prayer now.
I did not quote references from bani, as there are so many. If one searches 'pray' on srigranth.org you will see pages and pages. These references are all different, but reading through a few pages one should get the idea.

I mentioned extreme cases of when people that don't normally pray, turn to prayer. Below is a line from page 44

ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਭੈ ਭੰਜਨੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਕਰਿ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥
Sukẖ▫ḏāṯa bẖai bẖanjno ṯis āgai kar arḏās.
So offer your prayers to Him, the Giver of Peace, the Destroyer of fear.
At times when one is searching and desperate for peace or when anxiety and fear is very high. Turn to prayer and offer your prayers to the lord. Only he can help provide peace and eradicate the fear.

Now, I mentioned the many that turn to prayer at these times of desperation. I have known many of them to restore or gain their faith than previous after this action of prayer. I'm sure we have all come across such individuals. 
We are all aware that it is difficult to convince someone that a creator or God exists. However, during these times of desperation if one turned to just 'prayer' itself and not another individual. This 'prayer' from self can help give many personal positives and gains.
What I'm saying here is that, at these times of desperation is when the evil converts and deras come to play. They take the individual and convince them that only they can show the way, sadly many people fall for this and it's no wonder these numbers increase. For eg. there was a certain individual in UK that would target women that were desperate for children and were having problems conceiving. In turn, he would offer his special prayers, once the vulnerable women agreed to worship him. Yes, you guessed it, he would then manipulate them and end up get them pregnant by his own dirty actions.!!!- this is how sad it gets.- Why didn't these women just agree to their own prayers ??- we can all pray for our very own selves.

My point being universal, is that self prayer alone can have postive benefits for the individual and for true sikhism. If a vulnerable being refuses to acknowledge the baba or dera and decides to just pray themselves from within to the creator and/or Sri Guru Granth Sahib then this is a great thing, and very nice. This is probably one of the reasons why I find prayer by oneself as very attractive. It should be just you and creator, no need for a middleman, or You, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and creator, and thats it.

So in effect as some christians mention,- 'Prayer is your Saviour'

Now, you touched on my use of the term sin.



harry haller said:


> Luckyji
> 
> 4. There is no concept of sin in Sikhism. Asking for forgiveness for sins is an Abrahamic concept not a Sikh one.


 
Sorry, I understand what you mean by abrahamic. However, I was raised in heavy christian schools, not by choice, but that was all there was where I lived. I do use the term quite often along with many other terms and phrases such as 'Lord', it's not easy for me to say otherwise.

I tend to imply the word sin to gurmukhi 'PAAP' and that we are all paapi in some ways. To me it doesn't just mean the 7 sins that christians refer to, but much more than that along with influences of 5 thieves and any negative thoughts in your mind. So when I say 'sin' it means much more to me.
As a sikh, if we accept that we commit paap, intentionally and unintentionally then I feel asking for forgiveness along with strength and control to overcome these paaps is OK, if it helps with one's conscious.
That's all really, I know my previous phrase sounds too catholic or christian.

Let's move on 

Waheguru
Lucky Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 17, 2012)

All, perhaps worthwhile looking at the prayer/Ardas, at least in a group setting that many, if not all of us, have taken part in, once or more often.

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> <> vwihgurU jI kI &qih]
> sRI BgOqI jI shwie] vwr sRI BgOqI jI kI pwqSwhI 10] ipRQm BgOqI ismir kY gur nwnk leIN iDAwie] iPr AMgd gur qy Amrdwsu rwmdwsY hoeIN shwie] Arjn hrgoibMd no ismrO sRI hirrwie] sRI hirikRSn iDAwieAY ijs ifTY siB duK jwie] qyg bhwdr ismirAY Gr nau iniD AwvY Dwie] sB QWeI hoie shwie] dsvW pwqSwh sRI gurU goibMd isMG swihb jI! sB QWeI hoie shwie] dsW pwqSwhIAW dI joq sRI gurU gRMQ swihb jI dy pwT dIdwr dw iDAwn Dr ky bolo jI vwihgurU!
> 
> *Remembrance*_of our ten Guru ji and their essence in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji._
> ...


Sat Sri Akal.


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## passingby (Apr 19, 2012)

I shall add a few words according to my little understanding. Naam is many things at the same time. Sukhmani Sahib elaborates a lot on this. 
But one thing which needs to be pointed out is that along with other aspects Naam is also the name of God and its recitation as a mantra too. In fact it is the basis of whole of the spiritual practice in Sikhism. This recitation is to be done to a degree when it becomes continuous, uninterrupted in the depth of the mind. 


> ਕਾਨੜਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
> ਆਰਾਧਉ ਤੁਝਹਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਅਪਨੇ ॥
> *ਊਠਤ  ਬੈਠਤ ਸੋਵਤ ਜਾਗਤ ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਨੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ *
> ਤਾ ਕੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਿਓ ਨਾਮੁ ॥
> ...


 I am aware that since early decades of 20th century there have been voices who have spoken against mantra jaap. But that's not my understanding. Based upon gurbani, history, tradition and first hand accounts of saints, I understand that Naam jaap is the very basis of Sikh spiritual experience. 
Meditation, conceptual understanding and 'trying to implement gurbani' in everyday life all have their place but they do not hold the promise of Brahmagyaan, the direct perception of that which cannot be perceived. Gurbani points out incessantly towards Naam jaap.


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## passingby (Apr 19, 2012)

I do not know what Harry ji means by the word sin as in Abrahmic terms BUT there is concept of PAAP in SGGS. There also a concept of punishment being given by Dharamraaj to jeev-atma who indulges in Paap.


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 19, 2012)

Passingby ji thanks for your post.





passingby said:


> I do not know what Harry ji means by the word sin as in Abrahmic terms BUT there is concept of PAAP in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. _There also a concept of punishment being given by Dharamraaj to jeev-atma who indulges in Paap._


_Why we keep trying to get back into the wells of darkness that our Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji try so hard to get us out of?__motherlylove  Almost every metaphoric use in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has been turned into a belief by one or the other including many misguided and misguiding._ 

_Guru ji talked to people of the day in the language they understood and the beliefs they held.  They did not teach them to hold the beliefs or validate the beliefs they had, but to think anew as in the teaching of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji._

Please also describe in your own word from above what you understand the following to mean,


> *ਊਠਤ  ਬੈਠਤ ਸੋਵਤ ਜਾਗਤ ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਨੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ *


If you care to elaborate on what is "Naam Jap" for you, that will help understand your post.  It appears Naam has many different meanings for different people.  So does "Jap".

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Apr 19, 2012)

> This recitation is to be done to a degree when it becomes continuous, uninterrupted in the depth of the mind.



Years ago, when I had money, I had a collection of Range Rovers, old ones, always going wrong, a bit like my life, but when they did, I would get out the handbook, and I would read the relevant section, and I would then get my tools out, and I would work on the car with the book in front of me, after some painful hours, I would fix the problem, and would be thankful that I had a decent Hayes guide to the car. 

Now I realise how wrong I was, what I should have done, in hindsight, was sit in front of the car, and just read pages from the Hayes guide to the car, until the car fixed itself. I could even light a few lamps, obviously, just reading 1 page would be pointless, so I should have read the entire guide, at breakneck speed, or maybe just chant, 'Hayes' 

Thank you for enlightening me, if that works for the car, maybe I will try the same with the problems in my life too!


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## Harry Haller (Apr 19, 2012)

Luckyji, 

I have been giving this matter much thought, yesterday I walked the 3 miles to work, and thought of nothing else. It was at this point I realised something, I am always praying. It has never occurred to me to set a time out to pray, or to ready myself for prayer, or a request because I am having a constant conversation with the essence of Creator in my head. However the conversations do not take place as prayers would, they go more along the line of, 'I must do better at this, I must try harder at that', and how to achieve such in line with Bani and Hukam. I don't know if this is a universal thing but right and wrong are very clear in my head. As I walked, I know its wrong to stare at the lady at the bus stop in the mini skirt and the high heels, but as I avert my gaze, I also know its wrong to have an aversion to staring at the same lady, the key is indifference, its just a lady, a human being, old enough to be my sister, what she is wearing is irrelevant, wisdom comes in acknowledging her as a sister, and being neither attracted nor repulsed. All this is happening while I walk, I spot a brand new Range Rover, and a mixture of slight envy and apathy wash over me, I internally debate these feelings, and conclude that I am better off admiring it and being happy for the owner, this is the correct way to feel, and so forth, and my entire day is spent in this manner, feeling emotions, checking those emotions, debating what I feel, what I should feel, what Bani advises me to feel, what Hukam tells me to feel, which feeling is the one that is going to bring me closer to consonance, closer to Creation, which feeling is really me, am I the sex starved lunatic who envies others cars, or am I a brother to everyone, and gracious enough to be happy for others. As I get closer to my shop, I reflect on the dinner I cooked my wife yesterday, unfortunately she was too tired to be intimate when we went to bed, I had a slight feeling that my dinner should have been reciprocated, I also knew feeling like this was wrong, more debating, must try harder to give love unconditionally, not to get jealous of the attention to the 8 animals that live with us, to not act like a small boy not getting attention, I make a mental note to read some relevant bani on the subject, in order that I can gain understanding and follow hukam better,so tell me Luckyji, is this all praying?

My parents in their wisdom sent me to a convent school when I was young, so I understand. Sin by its very nature brings guilt, guilt is bad, I think that is why Sikhism does not recognise sin, sure, we are not all perfect, but better to try and be pure through wisdom and understanding, than beat yourself over the head with a big stick, which is what  guilt is. 

I look forward to your reply Veer Luckyji


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## passingby (Apr 19, 2012)

By Jaap I mean traditional repetition of the mantra. The word for me is 'Waheguru'. And thats how i understand the line:

*ਊਠਤ  ਬੈਠਤ ਸੋਵਤ ਜਾਗਤ ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਨੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
*The line accordingly to me clearly points out to the practice. Saas saas means to recite mentally as the breath goes in and comes out. 

Harry ji, thank you for your words. Just as you have spent your years in your search and understanding, I have spent my life too. I was not born yesterday. And my humble search was not limited either. After studying, reflecting, listening, watching and many other things, I have come to understand that reaching a higher consciousness is not a matter of creating good thoughts, being peaceful, although that is very important too. For me it means to reach deep into our minds, which is not a simple everyday reaching, but an extra-ordinary reaching, which results in a true transformation.

I am quite aware of not only ideas prevalent in Sikh circles but also the general global spiritual ideas in circulation. I have some decent understanding of other religions too. So I am not an uneducated person one might think when one hears that I speak on favour of a practice of mantra jaap. I do so with my own understanding which I have developed after doing my search and research.

The argument that repeating a word is useless is nothing new. It is as I mentioned earlier in my post quite old now. The argument cannot be 'won' by either side. The proof is in the pudding as they say.


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## passingby (Apr 19, 2012)

Ambarsaria veerji, 
I pointed out that the concept of Paap and Dharamraaj is present in Gurbani. I did not interpret the concept. If its a metaphor, then be it so.


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## Astroboy (Apr 19, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Luckyji,
> 
> I have been giving this matter much thought, yesterday I walked the 3 miles to work, and thought of nothing else. It was at this point I realised something, I am always praying. It has never occurred to me to set a time out to pray, or to ready myself for prayer, or a request because I am having a constant conversation with the essence of Creator in my head. However the conversations do not take place as prayers would, they go more along the line of, 'I must do better at this, I must try harder at that', and how to achieve such in line with Bani and Hukam. I don't know if this is a universal thing but right and wrong are very clear in my head. As I walked, I know its wrong to stare at the lady at the bus stop in the mini skirt and the high heels, but as I avert my gaze, I also know its wrong to have an aversion to staring at the same lady, the key is indifference, its just a lady, a human being, old enough to be my sister, what she is wearing is irrelevant, wisdom comes in acknowledging her as a sister, and being neither attracted nor repulsed. All this is happening while I walk, I spot a brand new Range Rover, and a mixture of slight envy and apathy wash over me, I internally debate these feelings, and conclude that I am better off admiring it and being happy for the owner, this is the correct way to feel, and so forth, and my entire day is spent in this manner, feeling emotions, checking those emotions, debating what I feel, what I should feel, what Bani advises me to feel, what Hukam tells me to feel, which feeling is the one that is going to bring me closer to consonance, closer to Creation, which feeling is really me, am I the sex starved lunatic who envies others cars, or am I a brother to everyone, and gracious enough to be happy for others. As I get closer to my shop, I reflect on the dinner I cooked my wife yesterday, unfortunately she was too tired to be intimate when we went to bed, I had a slight feeling that my dinner should have been reciprocated, I also knew feeling like this was wrong, more debating, must try harder to give love unconditionally, not to get jealous of the attention to the 8 animals that live with us, to not act like a small boy not getting attention, I make a mental note to read some relevant bani on the subject, in order that I can gain understanding and follow hukam better,so tell me Luckyji, is this all praying?
> 
> ...



Although this is directed to Veer Lucky Ji, I felt your thoughts as familiar and essential. For example, looking at a lady with a mini skirt is not really wrong because God created the male species to be more optical and that's the reason for the mini skirt in the first place. 
On the other hand, the Guru's bani tells us to pay attention on our own wives instead of other women because  obviously undesirable consequences will follow. Page 1290 Line 2 mentions it.

Another point you mentioned is whether we are praying all the time. In my opinion , to a certain extent, the answer is YES. We are putting our attention on negative thoughts 24/7 and go to places of worship for just a few hours and expect God to grant us positive things. In Gurbani the relevant tuk could be Page 474 Line 11.


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## Luckysingh (Apr 19, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Luckyji,
> 
> I have been giving this matter much thought, yesterday I walked the 3 miles to work, and thought of nothing else. It was at this point I realised something, I am always praying. It has never occurred to me to set a time out to pray, or to ready myself for prayer, or a request because I am having a constant conversation with the essence of Creator in my head. However the conversations do not take place as prayers would, they go more along the line of, 'I must do better at this, I must try harder at that', and how to achieve such in line with Bani and Hukam. I don't know if this is a universal thing but right and wrong are very clear in my head. As I walked, I know its wrong to stare at the lady at the bus stop in the mini skirt and the high heels, but as I avert my gaze, I also know its wrong to have an aversion to staring at the same lady, the key is indifference, its just a lady, a human being, old enough to be my sister, what she is wearing is irrelevant, wisdom comes in acknowledging her as a sister, and being neither attracted nor repulsed. All this is happening while I walk, I spot a brand new Range Rover, and a mixture of slight envy and apathy wash over me, I internally debate these feelings, and conclude that I am better off admiring it and being happy for the owner, this is the correct way to feel, and so forth, and my entire day is spent in this manner, feeling emotions, checking those emotions, debating what I feel, what I should feel, what Bani advises me to feel, what Hukam tells me to feel, which feeling is the one that is going to bring me closer to consonance, closer to Creation, which feeling is really me, am I the sex starved lunatic who envies others cars, or am I a brother to everyone, and gracious enough to be happy for others. As I get closer to my shop, I reflect on the dinner I cooked my wife yesterday, unfortunately she was too tired to be intimate when we went to bed, I had a slight feeling that my dinner should have been reciprocated, I also knew feeling like this was wrong, more debating, must try harder to give love unconditionally, not to get jealous of the attention to the 8 animals that live with us, to not act like a small boy not getting attention, I make a mental note to read some relevant bani on the subject, in order that I can gain understanding and follow hukam better,so tell me Luckyji, is this all praying?
> 
> ...


 
Harryji, the above actions quoted do constitute as a form of praying. When I say 'form', I will explain more clearly further down. It actually reminds me of something I learnt back in school** -'We should pray all the time'-**
Although this was christian taught and something of value it makes us realise how we can all achieve this.
Many of us are too absorbed in our daily work lives that we don't have the chance to reflect on ourselves. Be it too busy trying to please employer, or too busy in business aspect whatever, work life and employment can be too demanding for some that they are not always able to do this. You are very lucky that you find it possible in this sense.
To be able to pray all the time no matter what else you are doing by asking the lord for wisdom and inspiration for your actions is only achievable by some and something we should all try more often.

It's important to understand the difference between prayer and worship.
Although these two are often termed together, doesn't mean they are the same act. Act of worship is not always an act of prayer.

Prayer is like I explained previously, talking to God or having a quiet conversation, requesting, asking for an action.....

Worship can be thanking the lord for an action, expression of gratitude, praising, singing, Kirtan, hymns and katha are all acts of worship.

However, Worship in terms of sadh sangat can be regarded as a prayer, like all standing and doing the ardaas. This act of joint congregation is one example when worship and prayer closely overlap. Quite recently we noticed many Gurdwaras having akhand paths for Balwant Rajoana, this is in essence a prayer for him by all the congregation, again it overlaps with acts of worship. I know some people do like to associate worship, when they reference a group of people contributing to prayer wether it be seva or kirtan. Therefore, some may find it easier to asscoiate worship with a holy gathering or sadh sangat and Not as a 'pooja' as per hindu terms.

Getting to this we can further divide prayer into 3 subtypes
.
1st, The personal prayer that is done by one self and God, no interventions.This is often done quietly whenever or wherever one feels it appropriate.

2nd, We could have praying the naam or jap. Everyone has personal differences in their concepts for Naam and Jap, I won't go into it too much here as I've mentioned it in another post. Here I'm referring to any prayer that relates the word of the shabad or bani to your prayer. Wether it be reading Japji, sukhmani, a single shabad being repeated ...etc... It's reading, reciting the word from the bani and reflecting it on yourself. 
Most sikhs are very content with this sort of prayer and ardaas. Arising at amritvela and doing nitnem as per rehat is this form of prayer that goes well with spirituality.

3rd, Is similar to what you described above. Living with the prayer or having the rememberance and word of God with you throughout your living day.. Carrying out daily actions by asking for wisdom and inspiration from Guru.This also includes acts of seva or selfless service. Having the naam or word with you 'aaght pairr'

Now the above is not just my opinion, it's my explanation for myself in all honesty.
I don't expect any one to adapt or follow the prayer and it's subtypes theory. It is just a personal theory like many others I may have. 
However, I do feel it important that we understand that prayer and worship are different, but in certain situations they may and can overlap very closely as explained above.

Harryji, I hope this helps answer your question about wether your actions constitute to prayer or not. In my view, yes, but I gave subtypes for clarity. I may have learnt these in the past and adpated them into lines of sikhi.

Now, the other point you mentioned was 
_Sin by its very nature brings guilt, guilt is bad, I think that is why Sikhism does not recognise sin, sure, we are not all perfect, but better to try and be pure through wisdom and understanding, than beat yourself over the head with a big stick, which is what guilt is._

I understand your point here with reference to guilt. As sikhs we must try to overcome all negativities of our own mind or 'mann'
This includes feelings of guilt, fear and regret. As manmukhs we have to try and eradicate these, we only experience them because we are manmukh.

I explained what the term 'sin' meant to me in relation to 'paap' done intentionally and unintentionally.
Giving in to the power of any of the 5 thieves also comes across as acts of sin to me. Our minds do cause feelings of guilt to actions we clearly know are wrong or done with intention.

The important point to note here is, that I am also referring to UNintentional actions, ie. any paap that is done without realising, or mistakes and hurting we may cause other folk (by ego usually) without even realising how they feel or how hurt they may be.
These actions WILL NOT cause us any guilt, as we don't realise. It is for these that we ask 'Bhull Chuk Maarf' or forgiveness. 
In all honesty, I don't know how often I may even be doing this in all my interactions with different people throughout any given day.

I'm sure you must be able to recall a situation where someone, wether family or friend got offended as they misinterpreted a comment you may have made. In your own view, you made an innocent remark or comment, but they were offended and hurt by such action.- I'm sure we have all experienced this at one time or the other. 
So, what do we do when this happens or occurs??
Now, some will deal with it ignorantly as they couldn't care less. To them it will seem that it's the others fault for perceiving it in a crooked way. This attitude brings on NO GUILT or shame.
On the other hand, some will be shocked and sorry that they have caused such pain to others, even though it was totally unintended. This attitude would bring on GUILT and embarassment, although very undeserved in some opinions.

Do you see what I'm getting at here, -Sin or paap does not always mean guilt, and guilt does not always mean such a sin.
So, to me personally, -I feel no shame, harm or guilt the majority of the times that I may mention forgiveness in my own personal prayer.

I'm not encouraging this by any means, but if it helps with one's conscious, then there is no wrong or harm.
If it doesn't affect your conscious, then of course you have no need, it is different and personal to each and every one of us.


Harryji, I hope this clarifies some discrepancies you may feel in my previous comments.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh


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## findingmyway (Apr 20, 2012)

Moderation note. This is an interesting thread and it is good to see many points of view. I have not had the chance to read all yet but I would like to remind all contributors of the TOS.
1. All posts must be in English so all members can understand and enjoy them. There have been 1 or 2 members not following this so future posts not in English will be deleted without notice.

2. All shabads quoted must be in Panjabi and English with ang numbers for reference and your own understanding.

Thank you.


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## Archived_member15 (Apr 26, 2012)

For me, this is prayer: 


"...*Prayer is nothing but the inhaling and exhaling of the one breath of the universe. I, the highest and fiery power, have kindled every spark of life...I, the fiery life of divine essence, blaze in the beauty of the fields, am aflame beyond the beauty of the meadows, I gleam in the waters, and I burn in the sun, moon, and stars. With every breeze, as with invisible life that contains everything, I awaken everything to life. The air lives by turning green and being in bloom. The waters flow as if they were alive.... I am also Reason, having the wind of the sounding Word by which all things were created, and I breathe in them all, so that none may die, because I am Life*...*And thus I remain hidden in every kind of reality as a fiery power. Everything burns because of me in the way our breath constantly moves us, like the wind-tossed flame in a fire. As the Creator loves his creation so creation loves the Creator. Creation, of course, was fashioned to be adorned, to be showered, to be gifted with the love of the Creator. The entire world has been embraced by this kiss...All living creatures are, so to speak, sparks from the radiation of God's brilliance, and these sparks emerge from God like the rays of the sun . . . But if God did not give off those sparks, how would the divine glory become fully visible?...For there is no creature without some kind of radiance - whether it be greenness, seeds, buds, or another kind of beauty. Every human soul endowed with reason exists as a soul that emerges from the true God . . . This same God is that living fire by which souls live and breathe...*"

_- Saint Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), __Catholic mystic __and Doctor of the Church_


Catholic mystics often count the breath when praying, especially in the East where the practice of Hesyschasm is practised ie _"inhale and say in mind - "Jesus Christ Son of God" then exhale and say "have mercy on me"_ 

To explain this Hildegard told a parable, a little moral story: 


*"...Listen: there was once a king sitting on his throne. Around him stood great and wonderfully beautiful columns ornamented with ivory, bearing the banners of the king with great honor. Then it pleased the king to raise a small feather from the ground, and he commanded it to fly. The feather flew, not because of anything in itself but because the air bore it along. Thus am I, a feather on the breath of God..."*


-_ Saint Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), Catholic mystic and Doctor of the Church _



The Breath of God lives and breathes in all of us, and in all living beings, throughout all creation. To realize this, and to move with it, is prayer - a grasping of our place in the All and our unity with everything else in God's creation, in which we are all "feathers on the breath of God".


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## Archived_member15 (Apr 26, 2012)

Another definition of prayer that I like: 



"...*The most powerful prayer, one wellnigh omnipotent, and the worthiest work of all is the outcome of a quiet mind. The quieter it is the more powerful, the worthier, the deeper, the more telling and more perfect the prayer is. To the quiet mind all things are possible. What is a quiet mind? A quiet mind is one which nothing weighs on, nothing worries, which, free from ties and from all self-seeking, is wholly merged into the will of God and dead to its own...**If the only prayer you say in your entire life is "Thank You," that would suffice. Apprehend God in all things, for God is in all things. Every single creature is full of God and is a book about God. Every creature is a word of God. If I spent enough time with the tiniest creature-- even a caterpillar-- I would never have to prepare a sermon. So full of God is every creature. **We ought to understand God equally in all things, for God is equally in all things. All beings love one another. **All creatures are interdependent*...*God wants nothing of you but the gift of a peaceful heart..." *

*- *_Meister Eckhart (1260-1329), Catholic mystic and Dominican priest_


_And also: _


*"...A man may go into the field and say his prayer and be aware of God, or, he may be in Church and be aware of God; but, if he is more aware of Him because he is in a quiet place, that is his own deficiency and not due to God, Who is alike present in all things and places, and is willing to give Himself everywhere so far as lies in Him. He knows God rightly who knows Him everywhere...**"* 

_- Meister Eckhart (1260-1329), Catholic mystic and Dominican priest_


One does not have to be in a Church or Temple to find God in prayer - he is Everywhere!


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## Harry Haller (Apr 26, 2012)

> "...Prayer is nothing but the inhaling and exhaling of the one breath of the universe. I, the highest and fiery power, have kindled every spark of life...I, the fiery life of divine essence, blaze in the beauty of the fields, am aflame beyond the beauty of the meadows, I gleam in the waters, and I burn in the sun, moon, and stars. With every breeze, as with invisible life that contains everything, I awaken everything to life. The air lives by turning green and being in bloom. The waters flow as if they were alive.... I am also Reason, having the wind of the sounding Word by which all things were created, and I breathe in them all, so that none may die, because I am Life.



wahmundawahkaurmundahug


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## jonj (Apr 26, 2012)

some people find relief in praying as they feel like they can confide anything to God that might be bothering them that they cannot voice out to someone else. They feel connected to a higher begin that they strongly believe communication is established. Some people may not be able to voice out their fears as they might not be appropriate to talk about in the moment especially if what they fear is the death of someone they love as they want to seem strong to that person who might be fearing death as well that is why they opt to establish communication to a "higher being" whom the feel some relief.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 26, 2012)

Hum AADMI haan EK Dammi......we are of ONE BREATH.........says GURU NANAK....
Quote:  *Prayer is nothing but the inhaling and exhaling of the one breath of the universe......0*


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## Archived_member15 (Apr 26, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Hum AADMI haan EK Dammi......we are of ONE BREATH.........says GURU NANAK....
> Quote: *Prayer is nothing but the inhaling and exhaling of the one breath of the universe......0*


 
Wow!  I never knew Guru Nanak said that! We are ONE breath! 

I just googled it and found: 

*There is only one breath; all are made of the same clay; the light within all is the same.*
*The One Light pervades all the many and various beings. This Light intermingles with them, but it is not diluted or obscured.*
*By Guru’s Grace, I have come to see the One. I am a sacrifice to the True Guru. (3)*

*What a stunning message of the Unity of Humanity and of all creatures! *

I think I remember reading that passage already - it is stunning! I am reminded of the Quaker teaching of the "Inner Light", as its founder George Fox explained: 

*"...Every Man is enlightened by the Divine Light of Christ, and I saw it shine through all..."*

_- George Fox _(1624 – 1691), Founder of Quakerism 

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=96&english=t&id=3826#l3826​ 
I just adore Nanak's teachings. I could read the Granth all day without tiring or feeling wearied. Its just so full of the Holy Spirit and of wisdom 

I'm with His Holiness the Dalai Lama when he said: 


"...We bow to this great Granth, which was compiled 400 years ago. Since then it had been spreading the message of peace and love all over the world. The 21st century is witnessing a revolution in technology and man is improving his skills, but in matters of living and relationships between nations there is a marked degradation. The aim of all religions is to create a good man..."

_- His Holiness the Dalai Lama, spiritua leader of Tibetan Buddhism_


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## Taranjeet singh (Apr 27, 2012)

Harry ji,
I am posting a sabad from ang 149 that speaks of Pain and pleasure in context of prayer. Guru Sahibaan have clearly stated in this regard that :

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
First Mehl:

ਨਾਨਕ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਝਖਣਾ ਦੁਖ ਛਡਿ ਮੰਗੀਅਹਿ ਸੁਖ ॥]
O Nanak, it is absurd to ask to be spared from pain by begging for comfort.

ਸੁਖੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਦੁਇ ਦਰਿ ਕਪੜੇ ਪਹਿਰਹਿ ਜਾਇ ਮਨੁਖ ॥
Pleasure and pain are the two garments given, to be worn in the Court of the Lord.

ਜਿਥੈ ਬੋਲਣਿ ਹਾਰੀਐ ਤਿਥੈ ਚੰਗੀ ਚੁਪ ॥੨॥
Where you are bound to lose by speaking, there, you ought to remain silent. ||2||

And Jap ji Sahib also states:

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ॥

By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained.

There would be other lines as well besides these. Your thinking is in line with that Guru Sahib has stated.!


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## Harry Haller (Apr 27, 2012)

Taranjeet singh said:


> Harry ji,
> I am posting a sabad from ang 149 that speaks of Pain and pleasure in context of prayer. Guru Sahibaan have clearly stated in this regard that :
> 
> ਮਃ ੧ ॥
> ...



mundahug


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## Archived_member15 (Apr 27, 2012)

"...God is Breath, for the breath of the wind is shared by all, goes everywhere; nothing shuts it in, nothing holds it prisoner..." 


_- Saint Maximus The Confessor (c. 580 – 662), On Divine Names, I, 4, pg 4, 208, Catholic monk and mystic_




"...Prayer is the oxygen of the soul. Prayer is the bread and life of the soul; it is the breath of the heart. I do not want to be anything more than this, a friar who loves...Pray, hope, and don’t worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer. Prayer is the best weapon we have; it is the key to God’s heart. You must speak to God not only with your lips, but with your heart. In fact on certain occasions you should only speak to Him with your heart..." 


_- Saint Padre Pio (1887 – 1968), __Capuchin Catholic priest and mystic_


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## Archived_member15 (Apr 27, 2012)

"...God has given to the earth the breath which feeds it. It is his breath that gives life to all things. And if he were to withhold his breath, everything would be annihilated. It is the breath of God that you breathe - and you are unaware of it..." 


_- Saint Theophilus of Antioch ( c. 169 - 183), Catholic Bishop and mystic_




"...This breathing of the air is a property of the Holy Spirit, for which the soul here prays so that she may love God perfectly...Breathing with that, His Divine Breath He raises the soul most sublimely and informs her, that she may breathe in the same breath of love...And this is for the soul so high a glory, and so profound and sublime a delight, that it cannot be described by mortal tongue, nor can human understanding, as such, attain to any conception of it; [because] the soul that is united with and transformed in God breathes God in God with the same divine breathing with which God, while in her, breathes her in himself...That which is born in the soul from that breathing of the air is the song of the sweet philomel; for even as the song of the philomel, which is the nightingale, is heard in spring, when the cold and the rains of the winter are all past, and makes melody to the ear and gives refreshment to the spirit, even so in this present communication and transformation of love the Bride is protected and freed from all temporal changes and disturbances, and detached and purged from all the imperfections of her nature, and feels the new spring in her spirit, wherein she hears the sweet voice of the Beloved, who is her sweet nightingale, in the inmost part of her soul..." 


_- Saint John of the Cross (1542 –1591), Catholic mystic and Doctor of the Church_


_The Gurus and the Catholic mystics metaphorically describe God as the "Beloved Spouse" of the Soul; and the human soul as the "Bride" yearning for the sweet embrace of her Divine Lover, his caresses, kisses and touch. This is a powerful way to envision prayer, as the loving interaction between lovers, who continually die to self and offer each other as a gift, one to the other, until they unite in the act of love itself - and become "One", in the Bridal Chamber of the soul. And then we hear the voice of the Beloved in our hearts. We Catholics call this "Bridal Mysticism" and I have found it throughout the Holy Granth. Its inspiration and foundation in Catholic Sacred Tradition is the biblical Song of Songs, an erotic and epic love poem I've quoted before on SPN. The longing for a Beloved is one of the most profound desires known to man. The Book of Proverbs in the Bible accounts, 'the Way of a man with a woman' as one of the four wonders of creation. Thus Saint Augustine tells: _




"...*To fall in love with God is the greatest of all romances; *
*To seek Him, the greatest adventure; *
*To find Him, the greatest human achievement..." *

_~Saint Augustine of Hippo (c. 354-430) Church Father and Catholic mystic_





*"...When he touches me I clutch the sky's sheets, *
*the way other lovers do*
*the earth's weave of clay. *

*Any real ectasy is a sign*
*you are moving in the right direction, *
*don't let any prude tell you otherwise.*

*They are like shy, young school kids -
time and space
before the woman and the man who are
intimate with God.
The realised soul can play with this universe
the way a child can a ball...

A chalice - the Grail - my body became, for it held the Christ
and he drank
from me.

Sanctified are our limbs,
for every heart has touched God,
though most with closed eyes.

A holy relic is each creature,
and beauty may worry
about its comeliness waning.

We fear dying 'til we know the truth of ourselves.

The seams on my body
are torn;

I have stepped from that region of me
that did not love
all the time.

There is a divine world of light
with many suns in the sky.

I slept with my Lord
one night,

now all that is luminous
I know we
conceived*..."
 


- Saint Teresa of Avila (1515-1582), Catholic mystic and Doctor of the Church


"...I cannot dance, Lord, unless you lead me.
If you want me to leap with abandon,
You must intone the song.
Then I shall leap into love,
From love into knowledge,
From knowledge into enjoyment,
And from enjoyment beyond all human sensations.
There I want to remain, yet want also to circle higher still..."



_Saint Mechthild of Magdeburg (c. 1207 – c.1294), Catholic mystic_ 




As you can see, Teresa envisions herself and God as marital lovers. Their bedsheets are the sky, the earth is their bed and in between the two lovers consummate their love in the soul. Mechthild envisions God as her flirtatious young Spouse beckoning her to dance with Him. She exclaims that she cannot dance unless he grabs hold of her and leads her through the steps!


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## Archived_member15 (Apr 27, 2012)

"...It is possible to offer fervent prayer even while walking in public or strolling alone, or seated in your shop, . . . while buying or selling, . . . or even while cooking..." 


_- St. John Chrysostom (c. 347–407), __Ecloga de oratione, _
_Church Father and Doctor of the Church_


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Apr 28, 2012)

> "...It is possible to offer fervent prayer even while walking in public or strolling alone, or seated in your shop, . . . while buying or selling, . . . or even while cooking..."


 
Veera But is it possible to offer fervent prayer whilst debating in an internet forum?


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## Archived_member15 (Apr 28, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veera But is it possible to offer fervent prayer whilst debating in an internet forum?


 

My dear sister Scarlet :sippingcoffeemunda:

An excllent thought! Actually I would say, why not? 

Absolutely any activity can and should be sanctified as prayer because there is no separation between our spiritual life and our daily life - its just one life, as one Catholic saint said: "_There is just one life, made of flesh and spirit. And it is this life which has to become, in both soul and body, holy and filled with God. [You cannot live] a kind of double life. On the one hand, an interior life, a life of union with God; and on the other, a separate and distinct professional, social and family life_".

I suppose before going online we could say within our hearts, "_I'm going to offer my time on this forum up to you my Creator, let your Will be done on SPN through me, and not mine." That's prayer. _

And implore the Creator to work through you for the benefit and mutual building up of your fellow SPN'ers on this online community! That's prayer: Showing compassion to others, allowing God's Will to work through you for the benefit of the common good. 


“...You don't know how to pray? Put yourself in the presence of God, and as soon as you have said, "_Lord, I don't know how to pray_!" you can be sure you've already begun...Prayer is not a question of what you say or feel, but of love. And you love when you try hard to say something to the Lord, even though you might not actually say anything... I have often meditated on this life of spiritual childhood, which is not incompatible with fortitude, because it demands a strong will, proven maturity, an open and firm character. To work in this way is to pray. To study thus is likewise prayer. Research done with this spirit is prayer too. We are always doing the same thing, for everything can be prayer, all activity can and should lead us to God, nourish our intimate dealings with him, from morning to night. Any honorable work can be prayer and all prayerful work is God's Work. In this way the soul develops a unity of life, which is both simple and strong..." 

- _Saint Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer (1902 – 1975)_



"...How few really understand this! If they hear about the interior life, they imagine some obscure temple. For more than a quarter of a century I have been saying that such isn't the case. I talk about the interior life of ordinary people who habitually find themselves in the hubbub of the city, in the light of day, in the street, at work, with their families or simply relaxing; they are centred on God all day long. And what is this except a life of continuous prayer? Isn't it true that you have seen the need to become a soul of prayer, to reach an intimacy with God that leads to divinization? Such is faith as always understood by souls of prayer — ‘_A man becomes God_,’ writes Clement of Alexandria, ‘_because he loves whatever God loves_.’ At first it will be more difficult. You must make an effort to seek out the Lord, to thank him for his fatherly and practical concern for us. Although it is not a question of sentiment, little by little the love of God makes itself felt like a rustle in the soul. It is God who pursues us lovingly: ‘_Behold, I stand at the door and knock_.’...Prayer then becomes continuous, like the beating of our heart, like our pulse..." 



- _Saint Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer (1902 – 1975)_




"...Great holiness lies in carrying out the little duties of each moment. Do everything for Love. Thus there will be no little things: everything will be big. Perseverance in little things for Love is heroism. A Christian should do all honest human work, be it intellectual or manual, with the greatest perfection possible: with human perfection (professional competence) and with Christian perfection (for love of God's Will and as a service to mankind). Human work done like that, no matter how humble or insignificant it may seem, helps to shape the world. The world's divine dimension is made more visible and our human labour is thus incorporated into the marvellous work of Creation. It is raised to the order of grace. It is sanctified and becomes God's work...Ordinary life can be holy and full of God...The supernatural value of our life does not depend on accomplishing the great undertakings sometimes suggested to us by our overactive imagination. Rather it is to be found in the faithful acceptance of God's will, in welcoming generously the opportunities for small, daily sacrifice..."

_- Saint Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer (1902 – 1975)_


_As God is everywhere and present in every moment of our lives, anywhere - yes, even an online forum like SPN - can become a meeting place with the Divine and a prayer. _


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## Archived_member15 (Apr 28, 2012)

BTW I JUST REALIZED I CALLED YOU SISTER lol

I KNOW YOUR A MAN AND YET WHENEVER I SEE SCARLET I THINK WOMAN lollolSomehow that name confuses me - I am very sorry my dear brother, I think I've called you sister before! Please accept my apology.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Apr 28, 2012)

> _As God is everywhere and present in every moment of our lives, anywhere - yes, even an online forum like SPN - can become a meeting place with the Divine and a prayer. _<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


 
Veera your name confuses me aswell ,any way as you previously said the Self has no gender, another question, If God is present even in an online forum like SPN does that make him a member aswell?

(You don't have to answer any of my questions by the way as I'm a bit of a cynic like Diogenes.)

Ps I love the Saints words that you posted especially 'Verses on Deep' and the last one here , I shared it with a Christian friend by email as he does not come here.Keep up the good work.


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## Harry Haller (Apr 28, 2012)

no, he is the forum


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## Archived_member15 (Apr 28, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veera If God is present even in an online forum like SPN does that make him a member aswell?


 

My dear _brother _(cheerleader) Scarlet gingerteakaur

I think that brother Harry has answered your question for me! 

God is everywhere whole and entire but he is _not in any single place more than he is another._

If he were a member - then wouldn't that be sorted of like saying that he is _especially in SPN? He is everywhere! He is just there, wherever you go, you are in his Presence. In this sense I do not think it would be accurate to say that he is a "member" of anything, since that would seem to limit Him to the finite when he is Infinite. _


*Catholicism and Sikhism both teach that God is everywhere and in everything, that creation is filled with his Presence and that "God is All" (Book of Sirach). And yet for Sikhs and Catholics, whilst creation is permeated with the presence and reality of God, he is in all things without being fully contained by them or limited to them, indeed he both indwells all created things and at the same time transcends them as their ultimate origin and Creator. **Because of this both religions teach that creation is good, the world is good, reality is good and that every place is a meeting point with God and provides us with an opportunity to be in his Presence. *

He is the ALL. 


Sikhism believes that there is no separation between daily life and holiness. There is no division between the profane and sacred since once we become aware of God's Presence everywhere, we realize that everything is holy and that there is no such thing as a "spiritual life" distinct from daily life. The Adi Granth tells us that,


"...Spiritual liberation is attained in the midst of laughing, playing, dressing up and eating..." 

_- Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, p 522. _


Catholicism teaches the same.


“...All of creation, even the most material situation, is a meeting place with God, and leads to union with Him...All the ways of the earth can be an opportunity to meet God...He waits for us everyday, in the laboratory, in the operating theatre, in the army barracks, in the university chair, in the factory, in the workshop, in the fields, in the home and in all the immense panorama of work...Your ordinary contact with God takes place where your fellow men, your yearnings, your work and your affections are. There you have your daily encounter with God...The fruit of our prayer today should be the conviction that our journey on earth, at all times and whatever the circumstances, is for God; that it is a treasure of glory, something marvellous, which has been entrusted to us to administer, with a sense of responsibility. But it is not necessary for us to change our situation in life. Right in the middle of the world we can sanctify our profession or job, our home life, and social relations...I dream — and the dream has come true — of multitudes of God's children, sanctifying themselves as ordinary citizens, sharing the ambitions and endeavors of their colleagues and friends...Human life ‑ your life ‑ and its humdrum, ordinary business, have a meaning which is divine, which belongs to eternity. There is something holy, something divine, hidden in the most ordinary situations, and it is up to each one of you to discover it...” 

_- Saint Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer (1902 – 1975)_


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## Archived_member15 (Apr 28, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji If he is the forum then who are the members?


 

We all participate _in God_ just as much as God is _within_ all things. mundahug


"...The day of my spiritual awakening was the day I saw—<WBR>and knew I saw—*all things in God* and *God in all things..." *


_- Saint Mechthild of Madgeburg (c. 1207 – 1294)_




_In this sense we are all members of God and of each other, as Jesus said: "I am in them (us) and you are in me". _


_We are like fish in an ocean. We are swimming in God and yet we don't know it. Saint Augustine explained it_ as if *God* were a boundless *ocean* completely permeating the finite *sponge* of the created world. 


In this way we all soak in God, are permeated with Him, are _In him and he in Us. _




"...The image of God is found essentially and personally in all mankind. Each possesses it whole, entire and undivided, and all together not more than one alone. In this way we are all one, intimately united in our eternal image, which is the image of God and the source in us of all our life. Our created essence and our life are attached to it without mediation as to their eternal cause..."

_- Blessed John Ruysbroeck (1294-1381)_


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## Archived_member15 (Apr 28, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veera your name confuses me aswell ,any way as you previously said the Self has no gender, another question, If God is present even in an online forum like SPN does that make him a member aswell?
> 
> (You don't have to answer any of my questions by the way as I'm a bit of a cynic like Diogenes.)
> 
> Ps I love the Saints words that you posted especially 'Verses on Deep' and the last one here , I shared it with a Christian friend by email as he does not come here.Keep up the good work.


 

LOL :sippingcoffeemunda: Vouthon is a strange name indeed! Its French, its the name of the part of France where Saint Joan of Arc's mother came from - I use it because I love Joan! (She's kind of like my 'hero/heroine'). 

I am very humbled that you shared my quote with another Christian - I hope he liked it too! mundahug


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Apr 28, 2012)

> Vouthon is a strange name indeed! Its French, its the name of the part of France where Saint Joan of Arc's mother


Veera 
Saints have no denomination in my eyes ,they speak universal Truths and are inspirational to all ,especially Joan of Arc,your quote of a Saint I shared twice ,they then perhaps will share it thrice,thus a little post here travels further than you could imagine.


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## Archived_member15 (Apr 28, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veera
> Saints have no denomination in my eyes ,they speak universal Truths and are inspirational to all ,especially Joan of Arc,your quote of a Saint I shared twice ,they then perhaps will share it thrice,thus a little post here travels further than you could imagine.


 

I am very touched brother Scarlet mundahug How powerful is the written word and what a gift of Providence is the internet! Amen! 

I couldn't agree more. The mystics of the world's religious traditions all speak the same language: 


*"...All mystics speak the same language, for they come from the same country..."*

_-  Louis-Claude de Saint-Martin_ _(1743 –1803), Catholic philosopher and theosophist _


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## Astroboy (Apr 29, 2012)

Vouthon,

Your quotes; I'm wondering if they comprise of those from the Latter Day Saints?

And whether the Silk Road in Central Asia formed a route to disseminate profound knowledge of a spiritual kind to and fro Asia and Europe.

Just curious.


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## Archived_member15 (Apr 29, 2012)

Astroboy said:


> Vouthon,
> 
> Your quotes; I'm wondering if they comprise of those from the Latter Day Saints?
> 
> ...


 
My dear brother Astroboy :sippingcoffeemunda:

The Latter Day Saints - or Mormons as they are known - are a 19th century religious movement that emerged from Protestantism, being founded by a young man in America called Joseph Smith who believed that he had experienced a divine revelation through an Angel called {censored}i that led him to a cave were he found ancient golden tablets. 

The Catholic mystics do not have any relationship to Mormonism....? They predate it by in some cases nearly 2,000 years and in other many hundreds of centuries. Could you please explain further to me what you mean, my friend? Have I misunderstood? 

As to the Silk Road. For the very early Christians of the Roman Empire between 1 AD - 500 AD, I suspect that the extent of cultural interaction and spread of ideas would have been largely within the Empire itself. As for the later second millenium mystics, Medeival Europe was largely, I believe, cut off from the likes of India, China etc. so I probably would doubt that a direct flow of ideas occurred either way.


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## Astroboy (Apr 30, 2012)

Vouthon said:


> My dear brother Astroboy :sippingcoffeemunda:Could you please explain further to me what you mean, my friend? Have I misunderstood?



There is a verse in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which mentions Adam in the following way:-
My idea is to point out to the RSS (a Hindu Organisation) that Sikhism is in no way just an adaptation of Indian culture alone but by 'Western' also. 

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Page 1161 Line 7

God bestowed His grace upon Adam, the father of mankind,
but even Adam's life in paradise was short-lived due to his disobedience.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Apr 30, 2012)

Astroboy this thread is about prayer ,let us pray and forget organisations.


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## gurmit kaur mit (Apr 30, 2012)

nice  article...waheguru ji bless you with more spritual progress....


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2012)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Astroboy this thread is about prayer ,let us pray and forget organisations.



actually this thread is about not prayer, so let us not pray and forget about organisations


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## Archived_member15 (May 1, 2012)

harry haller said:


> actually this thread is about not prayer, so let us not pray and forget about organisations


 
icecreamkudi

This made me laugh brother Harry. Very witty!


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## Archived_member15 (May 20, 2012)

I was reading the _Complete Mystical Works _of Meister Echart this morning, in addition to the _Cherubinic Wanderer _by Angelus Silesius, the Messenger of the Heart, when I found passages in both that I thought might be pertinent to this thread and so I have decided to share them: 


"...Joy and sorrow both come from love. A man should not fear God, for he who fears Him, flees Him. Such a fear is harmful fear. The right sort of fear is the fear of _losing _God. Man should not fear Him, he should love Him, for God loves man to the highest perfection...The earth can never flee so low but heaven flows into her and impresses his power on her and fructifies her, whether she wishes it or not. It is just the same with man: he thinks he can get away from God, but he cannot escape Him, for every nook and cranny reveals Him. He thinks he is fleeing from God, and runs into his arms...That man who is thus established in God's love must be dead to self...I ask, 'What is the prayer of a detached heart?' My answer is that detachment and purity cannot pray, for whoever prays wants God to grant him something, or else wants God to take something from him. But a detached heart desires nothing at all, nor has it anything it wants to get rid of. Therefore it is free of all prayers, or its prayer consists of nothing but being uniform with God. That is all its prayer...Those who pray for anything but God or to do with God, pray wrongly: when I pray for nothing, then I pray rightly, and that prayer is proper and powerful. But if anyone prays for anything else, he is praying to a false God...I never pray so well as when I pray for nothing and for nobody, not for Heinrich or Konrad. Those who pray truly pray to God in truth and spirit, that is to say, in the Holy Spirit..." 


_- *Meister Eckhart (1260-1328), German Catholic mystic and Dominican priest*_



"...The deepest prayer
which I could ever say
is that which makes me One
with That to which I pray. 

God is such as He is, 
I am as I must be. 
And yet no two-ness
do I see. 

There is nothing
that disturbs your meditation
but your own wandering mind
in its vain agitation. 

Give me all Your bounty, 
give me eternal bliss - 
as long as You withhold yourself 
all things I miss. 

So far beyond all words. 
is He, 
I know no other way 
than not to speak. 
Thus without words 
I pray. 

In the depth of his Abyss 
God is pure contemplation. 
The deepest ground 
of all that is 
dwells in perpetual adoration. 

We keep so busy talking, 
we are so keen to act 
that we forget 
that in the heart 
lies all we need
untapped, intact. 

He who turns the senses 
to the Light that is his center
hears what no ear can hear, 
sees where no light can enter. 

Prayer is neither word nor gesture, 
chant nor sound. 
It is to be in still communication 
with our Ground..." 


*- Angelus Silesius (1624 – 1677), German Catholic mystic and poet *


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## BlazinSikh (May 21, 2012)

Hey, 

Just to add to Mr Harry Haller topic on prayer. I would just like to ask how many times are sikhs meant to prayer for, i mean how many times in a day. Because when i do research on prayer in sikhism i would usually find that sikh prayer 3 time in a day or 5 time in a day. But i am not sure?

Thank you


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## Harry Haller (May 21, 2012)

In my humble view, a Sikh should pray all the time 24 hours/7 by keeping their mind on Hukam,  a Khalsa Amritdhari, however has certain Bani to remember and contemplate as per the SRM

Meditating on Nam (Divine Substance) and Scriptures
Article IV 
1. A Sikh should wake up in the ambrosial hours (three hours before the dawn), take bath and, concentrating his/her thoughts on One Immortal Being, repeat the name Waheguru (Wondrous Destroyer of darkness). 
2. He/she should recite the following scriptural compositions every day : 
a. The Japu, the Jaapu and the Ten Sawayyas (Quartets) - beginning "Sarwag sudh"-- in the morning.
b. Sodar Rehras comprising the following compositions:- 
i) nine hymns of the Guru Granth Sahib, occuring in the holy book after the Japuji Sahib, (The Phrase in Italic has been interpolated by the translator to help locate the hymns more conveniently.) the first of which begins with "Sodar" and the last of which ends with "saran pare ki rakho sarma", 
ii) The Benti Chaupai of the tenth Guru (beginning "hamri karo hath dai rachha" and ending with "dusht dokh te leho bachai", 
iii) the Sawayya beginning with the words "pae gahe jab te tumre", 
iv) the Dohira beginning with the words "sagal duar kau chhad kai". 
v) the first five and the last pauris (stanzas) of Anand Sahib (The object of reciting the Anand as part of Sodar Rehras or at the conclusion of the congregational gathering is just to express joy and gratitude for the communion with the Guru ) and. 
vi) the Mundawani and the slok Mahla 5 beginning "tera kita jato nahi"- in the evening after sunset.
(c) The Sohila - to be recited at night before going to bed. The morning and evening recitations should be concluded with the Ardas (formal supplication litany). 

However it is my my own personal opinion that once baptised and confirmed as a Khalsa, the above prayers are a joy to make, and are not done as chores, with a true Khalsa actually looking forward to the time when they can recite bani.


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## Luckysingh (May 21, 2012)

BlazinSikh said:


> Hey,
> 
> Just to add to Mr Harry Haller topic on prayer. I would just like to ask how many times are sikhs meant to prayer for, i mean how many times in a day. Because when i do research on prayer in sikhism i would usually find that sikh prayer 3 time in a day or 5 time in a day. But i am not sure?
> 
> Thank you


 
Good question as the person praying 3 times a day may feel it is not sufficient as the one praying 5. But, it's not about quantity really, as you know there is the bani to be recited as per SRM.
Some say that you should pray as many meals you have, some not.
It really doesn't matter throughout the day how you go about it. It may be easier if you allocate specific times or it may be easier if you do it around the tasks you have, so once free to do so, you can.

Keep the name of waheguru close to your heart at all times, this is important. If your running a factory on child or slave labour or other unlawful means, then does it matter if you pray 5 times or not at all ?
We have no right to answer that, but before focusing on the number of prayers, we know we should make adjustments to living and earning, in this case.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 22, 2012)

kabir instructs...."EK gharree..adhee gharee addhe hon te aadh..Beginning with One HOUR..he begins HALVING them until he reaches..Half an eye BLINK !! and declares..Half an eye Blink (split second) is ENOUGH..IF there is a connection established with HIM...IF there is No connection established..even 24/7/365.25/100 yeras of prayers are INSUFFICIENT....just like my Laptop is ONLY worthwhile IF my Broadband is "*connected*"...otherwise leaving it on 24 hours a day also useless as  i wont be able to read/post anything on spn !!...So essentially its all about..Connection..connection and CONNECTION.


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## Kamala (May 22, 2012)

LoL, I am not laughing at your situation, I am laughing at you because the Gurus told Sikhs to pray and you are making a remix of a religion thinking whatever you say is fine as long as 7 random people like your post.


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## Harry Haller (May 23, 2012)

Kamala said:


> LoL, I am not laughing at your situation, I am laughing at you because the Gurus told Sikhs to pray and you are making a remix of a religion thinking whatever you say is fine as long as 7 random people like your post.



maybe Bhenji, that is a matter of opinion, however I would say my remix is a bit more faithful to the original than the mixture of Hinduism and Sikhism that not even 7 random people seem to like swordfight


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (May 23, 2012)

> So essentially its all about..Connection..connection and CONNECTION.


 
Gyani Ji To use your computor metaphor is prayer about upload or download?


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## Harry Haller (May 23, 2012)

some people use prayer as means of upload, some as a means of download spji surely, it depends whether you are asking or giving


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (May 23, 2012)

> it depends whether you are asking or giving <!-- google_ad_section_end -->


 
Veer Ji Prayer is not about either,it is an intranet.


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## Harry Haller (May 23, 2012)

Veerji, 

It SHOULD be an intranet, but would not that be more a state of Naam. 

This only gives weight to my argument that prayer, asking, is pointless, surely what we should all be aiming for is a permanent connection that encourages acceptance and doing your best


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (May 23, 2012)

> This only gives weight to my argument that prayer, asking, is pointless,


 
Asking is not pointless it uses the extranet.Both methods can be deemed as Virtual Prayer Networks.


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## Harry Haller (May 23, 2012)

surely to ask, is to question Hukam, to question wisdom of Creator, is it not better just to do ones best?


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (May 23, 2012)

> surely to ask, is to question Hukam, to question wisdom of Creator, is it not better just to do ones best?


 
Veer Ji Surely to ask is part of Hukum,don't worry about questioning,he knows the question before you ask it,still do your best aswell.


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## Harry Haller (May 23, 2012)

if he knows the question before you ask it, why ask it?


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (May 23, 2012)

> if he knows the question before you ask it, why ask it?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


 
Veer Ji Very often customers come into my Dads shop to ask for change for the carpark,I know this through experience but I still wait till they ask for it as that's more polite than me throwing change at them.lol


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## Harry Haller (May 23, 2012)

Spji, 

we are veering away from the topic, I do not find that a valid comparison.

The whole, 'please do this for me' prayer I find incompatible with Sikhism, We touched on it earlier, there are no set times for prayer, one should be in touch with Creator 24/7, with the only reward being the bliss of connection, 

Surely, ask not what your Creator can do for you, but what can you do for your Creator


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## Luckysingh (May 23, 2012)

What I often do hear is when someone hears of something tragic or a disaster that someone else has encountered, say for eg. you tell someone that so and so is very ill, then the person hearing may reply ' I will be praying for them so they get better' ...etc...etc..
Does this person really mean and do that, I often wonder ??

Is it just an expression that you add on to 'oh, dear sorry to hear that' ?

In my every day life, I hear people from all faiths say this in conversation. 
In all honesty, I can't just say it unless I would really mean it.

Then again, if hearing that a member of family is critical or something, I do hope that they get well and don't suffer too much. But, if someone is dieing or nearly dead, then I normally wish and hope that they don't have any regrets in life or  I hope that they don't leave with a false or negative misunderstanding about me. 
I do always wish that they did achieve in this life what they were meant to achieve- Even though sometimes I'm not even sure about what I myself am supposed to achieve!!!
Maybe this counts as praying, maybe this is what these others really do.


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## jasbirkaleka (May 23, 2012)

A somewhat similar thread, "DOES GOD LOVE SYCOPHANTS?" was started by me some time back.


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## Harry Haller (May 24, 2012)

When people have offered to pray for me in the past, I have felt patronised, and I have felt God to be patronised, let us get down to brass tacks here, the number of Sikhs who have suffered in our history is huge, the tortures they have suffered are well known, I wager not one prayed for help, prayed to be released, prayed for anything other than the strength to accept Hukam, we like to think we are powerful, that petitioning God to divinely change the course of the world is possible, I do not think it is, and I think it shows an ungracious and childish attitude, all is good, all outcomes, we just have to do our best, and weather life's storms without running to Daddy crying.


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## chazSingh (May 24, 2012)

eropa234 said:


> Praying is waste of time there is no one at the other end listening to it. Even if there were I would say they know better than you and does not require your " recommendations "
> 
> I find Gurbani very interesting. The only way to benefit from it is to study it, draw wisdom and truth from it and test it in the lab of daily life. Being a good Sikh is only being a good student nothing more.
> 
> Its silly to pray to guru to give some one space in his charn when they are dead one must find that space while they are alive. " Jo karn hout so na kio, pario lobh kay phand, Nanak samio Ram gayo, aab kion rovat aandh.


 
The divinity listening to the prayer is not at the end of any line, or sat ontop of some clouds  its right there within you, in every breathe you take, in every pore/cell of your body, on every stand of your hair.
Truly believe this, and your prayers will be listened to.

Remeber, your MIND does the talking, and your SOUL does the listening.
Your atma and paramatma is all within you LISTENING 

Pray to god to help you remember your TRUE self, pray to god to hold you by the arm and show you how to get to your TRUE IDENTITY - Satnaam.

From my experience these prayers are heard even before your mind utters them. Prayers for material things crumble.

God bless all.


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## Kamala (May 24, 2012)

harry haller said:


> maybe Bhenji, that is a matter of opinion, however I would say my remix is a bit more faithful to the original than the mixture of Hinduism and Sikhism that not even 7 random people seem to like swordfight


It's called Sanatan Sikhi, the original nihaangs follow it, and the nirmalas and the udasis  

Ye kaysa kalyugg..


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## Archived_member15 (May 24, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Spji,
> 
> we are veering away from the topic, I do not find that a valid comparison.
> 
> ...


 
My dear brother Harry Haller ji peacesign

Very true! 

I do not believe simply in formal, set times for prayers nor in a separation between "sacred and profane" in daily life. Our spiritual life is not separate from our work and social life, rather it is one, unified life in the Spirit that we must live. 

You might be interested in _Ignatian Spirituality_. It is a Catholic form of mysticism that is contemporary with Sikhism, and it derives from the teachings of Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491 – 1556) the founder of the Jesuits (he lived in the same age as Nanak, although in Europe, Spain). Interestingly enough, it was a Jesuit who a few decades later became the first Westerner to write about Sikhism and the martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev, with whom he sympathised deeply as I explained on another thread: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inter...tyrdom-guru-arjan-dev-first-contemporary.html


"...You should practice the seeking of God’s presence in all things, in your conversations, your walks, in all that you see, taste, hear, understand, in all your actions, since His Divine Majesty is truly in all things by His presence, power, and essence. This kind of meditation which finds God our Lord in all things is easier than raising oneself to the consideration of divine truths which are more abstract and which demand something of an effort if we are to keep our attention on them...Love God in all things—and all things in God...Oh, my God, I want to love you, not that I might gain eternal heaven nor escape eternal hell but, Lord, to love you just because you are my God. Eternal Word, Teach me true generosity. Teach me to serve you as you deserve. To give without counting the cost, To fight heedless of wounds, To labor without seeking rest, To sacrifice myself without thought of any reward Save the knowledge that I have done your will....May it please the supreme and divine Goodness to give us all abundant grace ever to know his most holy will and perfectly to fulfill it..." 


*- Saint Ignatius of Loyola (1491 – 1556), Catholic mystic, Founder of the Jesuits and Doctor of the Church *


His spirituality was described as such by one scholar: 


"...The key insight of Ignatius Loyola is that we can find God in all things. Ignatian spirituality is a spirituality for everyday life. It insists that God is present in our world and active in our lives. It is a pathway to deeper prayer, good decisions guided by keen discernment, and an active life of service to others...Finding God in all things is at the core of Ignatian Spirituality and is rooted in our growing awareness that God can found in every one, in every place and in everything. When we learn to pay more attention to God, we become more thankful and reverent, and through this we become more devoted to God, more deeply in love with our Creator...St. Ignatius stated that the key to a healthy spirituality was to find God in all things and work constantly to gain freedom in your life in order to cooperate with God’s will. This daily exercise he called the Examen... with the practice allowing people to hear God in their hearts and with the daily practice be able to discern God’s will for them in their lives...It enables us to open our heart more fully to the will of God in our lives and recognise God’s presence in everything, as we go about our daily tasks..." 


On March 25th, 1522, Ignatius of Loyola came down from Montserrat to Manresa. He settled down and lived eleven months there. Saint Ignatius stay in Manresa includes a unique event that took place in front of river Cardoner. There he had a vision, the so called ‘enlightenment of river Cardoner’: “*While he was sitting there the eyes of his mind started to open. Not that he saw a vision, but he understood and came to know many things with such a great enlightenment that everything was new to him” (Autobiography)*. He had previously been a Basque freedom fighter and soldier of fortune but after this 'awakening' he gave this way of life up for one of contemplation and peacefulness. From a brief biography of him, this part describing his spiritual awakening on the banks of the river Cardoner: 


"...Ignatius continued towards Barcelona but stopped along the river Cardoner at a town called Manresa. He stayed in a cave outside the town, intending to linger only a few days, but he remained for ten months. He spent hours each day in prayer and also worked in a hospice. It was while here that the ideas for what are now known as the Spiritual Exercises began to take shape. It was also on the banks of this river that he had a vision which is regarded as the most significant in his life. The vision was more of an enlightenment, about which he later said that he learned more on that one occasion than he did in the rest of his life. Ignatius never revealed exactly what the vision was, but it seems to have been an encounter with God as He really is so that all creation was seen in a new light and acquired a new meaning and relevance, an experience that enabled Ignatius to find God in all things. This grace, finding God in all things, is one of the central characteristics of Jesuit spirituality. Ignatius himself never wrote in the rules of the Jesuits that there should be any fixed time for prayer. Actually, by finding God in all things, all times are times of prayer..."


Two other Catholic saints: 


"...Love wholly and not partially. God does not have parts but is present totally everywhere. God does not want only a part of you….Give all of yourself and God will give you all of himself...If things created are so full of loveliness, how resplendent with beauty must be the One who made them! The wisdom of the worker is apparent in His handiwork...My brothers the fishes, you are bound, as much as is in your power, to return thanks to your Creator, who has given you so noble an element for your dwelling..." 


*- Saint Anthony of Padua (1195 – 1231), Catholic mystic and Doctor of the Church* 


"...Happy souls indeed, who love their friends in God, and their foes for God ! They love many others besides God, but nothing save in and for Him. They not only love Him above all things, but in all things, and all things in Him...You learn to speak by speaking, to study by studying, to run by running, to work by working ; and just so you learn to love God and man by loving. All those who think to learn in any other way deceive themselves...Behold this divine Lover at the gate, He does not simply knock, but stands knocking; He calls the soul, _come, arise, make haste, my love_ and puts his Hand into the lock to try whether He cannot open it...For the measure in which our heart dilates itself, or rather lets itself be dilated and enlarged, and does not deny the void of its consent to the Divine Mercy, in the same measure the Divine Mercy always pour into it, sheds over it, and increasing and ever increasing inspiration under which we also increase, growing more and more in divine love. Our free will is never so free as when it is a slave to the will of God, nor ever so much a slave as when it serves our own will. It never has so much life as when it dies to itself, nor ever so much death, as when it lives to itself. The indifferent heart is as a ball of wax in the hands of its God, receiving with equal readiness all the impressions of the Divine pleasure; it is a heart without choice, equally disposed for everything, having no other object of its will than the will of its God, and placing its affections not upon the things of God but upon the will of God who wills them..." 


*- Saint Francis de Sales (1567 – 1622), Catholic mystic, Bishop and Doctor of the Church*


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## Archived_member15 (May 25, 2012)

I think that brother Harry ji might appreciate this peacesign

"...When I pray for aught, my prayer goes for naught; when I pray for naught, I pray as I ought. When I am united with the God within which all beings exist whether past, present or future, they are all equally near and equally one; they are all in God and all in _me. _Then there’s no need to think of Henry or Conrad (_or, as we might say, of Tom, Dik and Harry_)...Whoever seeks God and seeks anything _with _God, does not find God; but he who seeks God alone in truth finds God but he does not find God alone – for all that God can give, that he finds with God...Those who seek anything in God, knowledge, understanding, devotion or whatever it might be – though they may find it they will not have found God. But if they seek nothing, they will find God and all things in him, and they will remain with him...Human beings should seek nothing at all, neither knowledge nor understanding nor inwardness nor piety nor repose, but only God’s will. They should never pray for any transitory thing, but if they would pray for anything, they should pray for God’s will alone, and then they get everything. If they pray for anything else, they will get nothing...Human beings who love God as they ought and must (whether they would or not) _must _love their fellow human beings as themselves, rejoicing in their joys as their _own _joys, and desiring their honour as much as their _own _honour, and loving a stranger as one of their own..." 

*- Meister Eckhart (1260-1328), Catholic mystic and Dominican priest* 


I am so deeply humbled and heartened by how brother Harry's thought, and indeed Sikhi understanding in general, is so close to that of Meister Eckhart and the other Catholic mystics, even thouigh these two religons never mixed in their formative stages, and were sundered by time, space, different cultures and languages. 

For me this is witness to the universal action of the Holy Spirit, enlightening all, as the Catholic mystic Blessed John Ruysbroeck said: 


"...Now mark this: God being a common good, and his boundless love being common to all [...] his grace is common to all men, whether Pagan or Jew, whether good or evil. By reason of his common love, which God has towards all men, he has caused his Name and the liberation of human nature to be preached and revealed to the uttermost parts of the earth. Whoever wishes to turn to Him can turn to Him [...] Thus God is a common Light and a common splendour, enlightening heaven and earth and every man, each according to his need..." 


*- Blessed John Ruysbroeck (1293 – 1381), Flemish Catholic mystic*


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