# Guru Arjan As Incarnation Of Waheguru?



## Ishna

Gurfateh

Some tuks from this shabad were sung at the Gurdwara I attend recently.  I was suprised by the translation on the projector screen.  I might be asking about something which is far beyond my comprehension at this point in my growth but thought I'd ask since there is some talk of avatars on another thread at the moment.

The shabad starts on Ang 1048.  The parts I'm curious about are in green.  Is it really saying Guru Arjan Dev Ji is an incarnation of Waheguru?

ਜੋਤਿ  ਰੂਪਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਆਪਿ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਕਹਾਯਉ  ॥ 
 Joṯ rūp har āp gurū Nānak kahā▫ya▫o. 
 The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak. 

 ਤਾ  ਤੇ  ਅੰਗਦੁ  ਭਯਉ  ਤਤ  ਸਿਉ  ਤਤੁ  ਮਿਲਾਯਉ  ॥ 
 Ŧā ṯe angaḏ bẖa▫ya▫o ṯaṯ si▫o ṯaṯ milā▫ya▫o. 
 From Him, came Guru Angad; His essence was absorbed into the essence. 

 ਅੰਗਦਿ  ਕਿਰਪਾ  ਧਾਰਿ  ਅਮਰੁ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਥਿਰੁ  ਕੀਅਉ  ॥ 
 Angaḏ kirpā ḏẖār amar saṯgur thir kī▫a▫o. 
 Guru Angad showed His Mercy, and established Amar Daas as the True Guru. 

 ਅਮਰਦਾਸਿ  ਅਮਰਤੁ  ਛਤ੍ਰੁ  ਗੁਰ  ਰਾਮਹਿ  ਦੀਅਉ  ॥ 
 Amarḏās amraṯ cẖẖaṯar gur rāmėh ḏī▫a▫o. 
 Guru Amar Daas blessed Guru Raam Daas with the umbrella of immortality. 

 ਗੁਰ  ਰਾਮਦਾਸ  ਦਰਸਨੁ  ਪਰਸਿ  ਕਹਿ  ਮਥੁਰਾ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ  ਬਯਣ  ॥ 
 Gur Rāmḏās ḏarsan paras kahi mathurā amriṯ ba▫yaṇ. 
 So speaks Mat'huraa: gazing upon the Blessed Vision, the Darshan of Guru Raam Daas, His speech became as sweet as nectar. 

 ਮੂਰਤਿ  ਪੰਚ  ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣ  ਪੁਰਖੁ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਅਰਜੁਨੁ  ਪਿਖਹੁ  ਨਯਣ  ॥੧॥ 
 Mūraṯ pancẖ parmāṇ purakẖ gur arjun pikẖahu na▫yaṇ. ||1|| 
 With your eyes, see the certified Primal Person, Guru Arjun, the Fifth Manifestation of the Guru. ||1|| 

 ਸਤਿ  ਰੂਪੁ  ਸਤਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਸਤੁ  ਸੰਤੋਖੁ  ਧਰਿਓ  ਉਰਿ  ॥ 
 Saṯ rūp saṯ nām saṯ sanṯokẖ ḏẖari▫o ur. 
 He is the Embodiment of Truth; He has enshrined the True Name, Sat Naam, Truth and contentment within His heart. 

 ਆਦਿ  ਪੁਰਖਿ  ਪਰਤਖਿ  ਲਿਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ  ਅਛਰੁ  ਮਸਤਕਿ  ਧੁਰਿ  ॥ 
 Āḏ purakẖ parṯakẖ likẖ▫ya▫o acẖẖar masṯak ḏẖur. 
 From the very beginning, the Primal Being has written this destiny upon His forehead. 

 ਪ੍ਰਗਟ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਜਗਮਗੈ  ਤੇਜੁ  ਭੂਅ  ਮੰਡਲਿ  ਛਾਯਉ  ॥ 
 Pargat joṯ jagmagai ṯej bẖū▫a mandal cẖẖā▫ya▫o. 
 His Divine Light shines forth, dazzling and radiant; His Glorious Grandeur pervades the realms of the world. 

 ਪਾਰਸੁ  ਪਰਸਿ  ਪਰਸੁ  ਪਰਸਿ  ਗੁਰਿ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਕਹਾਯਉ  ॥ 
 Pāras paras paras paras gur gurū kahā▫ya▫o. 
 Meeting the Guru, touching the Philosopher's Stone, He was acclaimed as Guru. 

 ਭਨਿ  ਮਥੁਰਾ  ਮੂਰਤਿ  ਸਦਾ  ਥਿਰੁ  ਲਾਇ  ਚਿਤੁ  ਸਨਮੁਖ  ਰਹਹੁ  ॥ 
 Bẖan mathurā mūraṯ saḏā thir lā▫e cẖiṯ sanmukẖ rahhu. 
 So speaks Mat'huraa: I constantly focus my consciousness on Him; as sunmukh, I look to Him. 

 ਕਲਜੁਗਿ  ਜਹਾਜੁ  ਅਰਜੁਨੁ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਸਗਲ  ਸ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਟਿ  ਲਗਿ  ਬਿਤਰਹੁ  ॥੨॥ 
 Kaljug jahāj arjun gurū sagal sarisat lag biṯrahu. ||2|| 
 In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, Guru Arjun is the Boat; attached to him, the entire universe is safely carried across. ||2|| 

 ਤਿਹ  ਜਨ  ਜਾਚਹੁ  ਜਗਤ੍ਰ  ਪਰ  ਜਾਨੀਅਤੁ  ਬਾਸੁਰ  ਰਯਨਿ  ਬਾਸੁ  ਜਾ  ਕੋ  ਹਿਤੁ  ਨਾਮ  ਸਿਉ  ॥ 
 Ŧih jan jācẖahu jagṯar par jānī▫aṯ bāsur ra▫yan bās jā ko hiṯ nām si▫o. 
 I beg from that humble being who is known all over the world, who lives in, and loves the Name, night and day. 

 ਪਰਮ  ਅਤੀਤੁ  ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ  ਕੈ  ਰੰਗਿ  ਰੰਗ੍ਯ੍ਯੌ  ਬਾਸਨਾ  ਤੇ  ਬਾਹਰਿ  ਪੈ  ਦੇਖੀਅਤੁ  ਧਾਮ  ਸਿਉ  ॥ 
 Param aṯīṯ parmesur kai rang rang▫y▫ou bāsnā ṯe bāhar pai ḏekẖī▫aṯ ḏẖām si▫o. 
 He is supremely unattached, and imbued with the Love of the Transcendent Lord; he is free of desire, but he lives as a family man. 

 ਅਪਰ  ਪਰੰਪਰ  ਪੁਰਖ  ਸਿਉ  ਪ੍ਰੇਮੁ  ਲਾਗ੍ਯ੍ਯੌ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਭਗਵੰਤ  ਰਸੁ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਅਉਰੈ  ਕਾਮ  ਸਿਉ  ॥ 
 Apar parampar purakẖ si▫o parem lāg▫y▫ou bin bẖagvanṯ ras nāhī a▫urai kām si▫o. 
 He is dedicated to the Love of the Infinite, Limitless Primal Lord God; he has no concerns for any other pleasure, except for the Lord God. 

 ਮਥੁਰਾ  ਕੋ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਸ੍ਰਬ  ਮਯ  ਅਰਜੁਨ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਭਗਤਿ  ਕੈ  ਹੇਤਿ  ਪਾਇ  ਰਹਿਓ  ਮਿਲਿ  ਰਾਮ  ਸਿਉ  ॥੩॥ 
 Mathurā ko parabẖ sarab ma▫y arjun gur bẖagaṯ kai heṯ pā▫e rahi▫o mil rām si▫o. ||3|| 
 Guru Arjun is the All-pervading Lord God of Mat'huraa. Devoted to His Worship, he remains attached to the Lord's Feet. ||3|| ਅੰਤੁ  ਨ  ਪਾਵਤ  ਦੇਵ  ਸਬੈ  ਮੁਨਿ  ਇੰਦ੍ਰ  ਮਹਾ  ਸਿਵ  ਜੋਗ  ਕਰੀ  ॥ 
 Anṯ na pāvaṯ ḏev sabai mun inḏar mahā siv jog karī. 
 All the gods, silent sages, Indra, Shiva and Yogis have not found the Lord's limits - 

 ਫੁਨਿ  ਬੇਦ  ਬਿਰੰਚਿ  ਬਿਚਾਰਿ  ਰਹਿਓ  ਹਰਿ  ਜਾਪੁ  ਨ  ਛਾਡ੍ਯ੍ਯਿਉ  ਏਕ  ਘਰੀ  ॥ 
 Fun beḏ birancẖ bicẖār rahi▫o har jāp na cẖẖādi▫ya▫o ek gẖarī. 
 not even Brahma who contemplates the Vedas. I shall not give up meditating on the Lord, even for an instant. 

 ਮਥੁਰਾ  ਜਨ  ਕੋ  ਪ੍ਰਭੁ  ਦੀਨ  ਦਯਾਲੁ  ਹੈ  ਸੰਗਤਿ  ਸ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਟਿ  ਨਿਹਾਲੁ  ਕਰੀ  ॥ 
 Mathurā jan ko parabẖ ḏīn ḏa▫yāl hai sangaṯ sarisat nihāl karī. 
 The God of Mat'huraa is Merciful to the meek; He blesses and uplifts the Sangats throughout the Universe. 

 ਰਾਮਦਾਸਿ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਜਗ  ਤਾਰਨ  ਕਉ  ਗੁਰ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਅਰਜੁਨ  ਮਾਹਿ  ਧਰੀ  ॥੪॥ 
 Rāmḏās gurū jag ṯāran ka▫o gur joṯ arjun māhi ḏẖarī. ||4|| 
 Guru Raam Daas, to save the world, enshrined the Guru's Light into Guru Arjun. ||4|| 

 ਜਗ  ਅਉਰੁ  ਨ  ਯਾਹਿ  ਮਹਾ  ਤਮ  ਮੈ  ਅਵਤਾਰੁ  ਉਜਾਗਰੁ  ਆਨਿ  ਕੀਅਉ  ॥ 
 Jag a▫or na yāhi mahā ṯam mai avṯār ujāgar ān kī▫a▫o. 
 In the great darkness of this world, the Lord revealed Himself, incarnated as Guru Arjun. 

 ਤਿਨ  ਕੇ  ਦੁਖ  ਕੋਟਿਕ  ਦੂਰਿ  ਗਏ  ਮਥੁਰਾ  ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਪੀਅਉ  ॥ 
 Ŧin ke ḏukẖ kotik ḏūr ga▫e mathurā jinĥ amriṯ nām pī▫a▫o. 
 Millions of pains are taken away, from those who drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, says Mat'huraa. 

 ਇਹ  ਪਧਤਿ  ਤੇ  ਮਤ  ਚੂਕਹਿ  ਰੇ  ਮਨ  ਭੇਦੁ  ਬਿਭੇਦੁ  ਨ  ਜਾਨ  ਬੀਅਉ  ॥ 
 Ih paḏẖaṯ ṯe maṯ cẖūkėh re man bẖeḏ bibẖed na jān bī▫a▫o. 
 O mortal being, do not leave this path; do not think that there is any difference between God and Guru. 

 ਪਰਤਛਿ  ਰਿਦੈ  ਗੁਰ  ਅਰਜੁਨ  ਕੈ  ਹਰਿ  ਪੂਰਨ  ਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ  ਨਿਵਾਸੁ  ਲੀਅਉ  ॥੫॥ 
 Parṯacẖẖ riḏai gur arjun kai har pūran barahm nivās lī▫a▫o. ||5|| 
 The Perfect Lord God has manifested Himself; He dwells in the heart of Guru Arjun. ||5|| 

 ਜਬ  ਲਉ  ਨਹੀ  ਭਾਗ  ਲਿਲਾਰ  ਉਦੈ  ਤਬ  ਲਉ  ਭ੍ਰਮਤੇ  ਫਿਰਤੇ  ਬਹੁ  ਧਾਯਉ  ॥ 
 Jab la▫o nahī bẖāg lilār uḏai ṯab la▫o bẖaramṯe firṯe baho ḏẖā▫ya▫o. 
 As long as the destiny written upon my forehead was not activated, I wandered around lost, running in all directions. 

 ਕਲਿ  ਘੋਰ  ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰ  ਮੈ  ਬੂਡਤ  ਥੇ  ਕਬਹੂ  ਮਿਟਿ  ਹੈ  ਨਹੀ  ਰੇ  ਪਛੁਤਾਯਉ  ॥ 
 Kal gẖor samuḏar mai būdaṯ the kabhū mit hai nahī re pacẖẖoṯā▫ya▫o. 
 I was drowning in the horrible world-ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, and my remorse would never have ended. 

 ਤਤੁ  ਬਿਚਾਰੁ  ਯਹੈ  ਮਥੁਰਾ  ਜਗ  ਤਾਰਨ  ਕਉ  ਅਵਤਾਰੁ  ਬਨਾਯਉ  ॥ 
 Ŧaṯ bicẖār yahai mathurā jag ṯāran ka▫o avṯār banā▫ya▫o. 
 O Mat'huraa, consider this essential truth: to save the world, the Lord incarnated Himself. 

 ਜਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ  ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ  ਅਰਜੁਨ  ਦੇਵ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਫਿਰਿ  ਸੰਕਟ  ਜੋਨਿ  ਗਰਭ  ਨ  ਆਯਉ  ॥੬॥ 
 Jap▫ya▫o jinĥ arjun ḏev gurū fir sankat jon garabẖ na ā▫ya▫o. ||6|| 
 Whoever meditates on Guru Arjun Dayv, shall not have to pass through the painful womb of reincarnation ever again. ||6|| 

 ਕਲਿ  ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰ  ਭਏ  ਰੂਪ  ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਨਾਮ  ਉਧਾਰਨੁ  ॥ 
 Kal samuḏar bẖa▫e rūp pargat har nām uḏẖāran. 
 In the ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord's Name has been revealed in the Form of Guru Arjun, to save the world. 

 ਬਸਹਿ  ਸੰਤ  ਜਿਸੁ  ਰਿਦੈ  ਦੁਖ  ਦਾਰਿਦ੍ਰ  ਨਿਵਾਰਨੁ  ॥ 
 Basėh sanṯ jis riḏai ḏukẖ ḏariḏar nivāran. 
 Pain and poverty are taken away from that person, within whose heart the Saint abides. 

 ਨਿਰਮਲ  ਭੇਖ  ਅਪਾਰ  ਤਾਸੁ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਅਵਰੁ  ਨ  ਕੋਈ  ॥ 
 Nirmal bẖekẖ apār ṯās bin avar na ko▫ī. 
 He is the Pure, Immaculate Form of the Infinite Lord; except for Him, there is no other at all. 

 ਮਨ  ਬਚ  ਜਿਨਿ  ਜਾਣਿਅਉ  ਭਯਉ  ਤਿਹ  ਸਮਸਰਿ  ਸੋਈ  ॥ 
 Man bacẖ jin jāṇi▫a▫o bẖa▫ya▫o ṯih samsar so▫ī. 
 Whoever knows Him in thought, word and deed, becomes just like Him. 

 ਧਰਨਿ  ਗਗਨ  ਨਵ  ਖੰਡ  ਮਹਿ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਸ੍ਵਰੂਪੀ  ਰਹਿਓ  ਭਰਿ  ॥ 
 Ḏẖaran gagan nav kẖand mėh joṯ savrūpī rahi▫o bẖar. 
 He is totally pervading the earth, the sky and the nine regions of the planet. He is the Embodiment of the Light of God. 

 ਭਨਿ  ਮਥੁਰਾ  ਕਛੁ  ਭੇਦੁ  ਨਹੀ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਅਰਜੁਨੁ  ਪਰਤਖ੍ਯ੍ਯ  ਹਰਿ  ॥੭॥੧੯॥ 
 Bẖan mathurā kacẖẖ bẖeḏ nahī gur arjun parṯakẖ▫y har. ||7||19|| 
 So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. ||7||19||


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## BhagatSingh

Ishna ji 
Yes the Gurmukhi suggests that it is saying that Guru Arjan Dev ji is the incarnation of God/God himself. Mathura uses the word Avtar for Guru Arjan. Avtars are incarnations.

Now one person might reject this literal translation and advise to take it metaphorically like some sort of poetic praise. The other will take it word for word. (we will hear from more people soon) All perspectives point to towards the truth.

My suggestion would be to go beyond the words and try to feel what the word "incarnation" and the whole shabad is referring to. Meditate on the shabad.

Now, what other words can you use for _that_? (avoid thinking about that, post the words that immediately come through from meditation, and if no words arise that is fine too)


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## spnadmin

This subject comes up often enough. The shabad in question is by the poet KALL (Kahl), and is part of the granth that includes shabads by the Bhatts. These were Hindu poets who lived in the times and locale of the gurusahiban. They were monotheists. Their praise of the Gurus includes references to Hindu ideas and devtas...because they were Hindus. The common confusion is to conclude that Guru Arjan Dev is somehow acceding to Hindu ideas like avatars because he included their compositions in the Adi Granth. Because of this mental confusion, some of us veer in the direction of one of two mistaken ideas: 1) that Sikhism is blended with sanatan or Hinduism; or conversely, 2) that these shabads should be removed because they are impure.  The former argument widely promoted in Sikhi, and reinforced in the writing of McLeod. The latter argument put forward by the early Panj Khalsa Diwan.

It is interesting to me that the only time the word avatar is used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is in the compositions of the Bhatts. Or, in other words, in the Bhatt Bani. 

This is my humble offering to the discussion. I await the moments when either problem 1 or problem 2 or both are pressed upon us in the thread. welcomekaur Without a doubt it will occur.


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## spnadmin

*Background: *




> Bhai Gurdas also gives in his Vãrãñ, XI. 21, a brief account of these Bhatts. What was the number of Bhatts whose compositions are included is a question not yet firmly answered. According to a tradition, *Kalh, a leading Bhatt poet,* took it upon himself to note down some of the verse of the Bhatts from the vahis and *passed it on to Guru Arjan at the time of the compilation of the Holy Book.* As for the number of Bhatt contributors to the Guru Granth Sahib, Sahib Singh, Teja Singh, Tãran Singh and other modern scholars count 11 of them, whereas Santokh Siñgh (Sri GurPratãp Suraj Granth), Bhai Vir Singh (Guru Granth Kosh)and some others among the traditional scholars count 17, and Panclit Kartãr Singh Dãkha puts the figure at 19. This variation in owed to the fact that the Bhatts used to sing in chorus and sometimes the chorus sung in a group went in the name of the leader at other times individually in the members of the group.
> 
> From among the 17 Bhatts positions figure in the Guru Granth Sahib, Bhikhã, son of Rayyã, was a resident of Sultãnpur Lodhi and had been a follower of Guru Amar Das. Of the total 123 savaiye in the Guru Granth Sahib two are of his composition, both in praise of Guru Amar Das Of the remaining sixteen Bhatt contributors four are his sons; Kalh, also called or Kal Thãkur, who is reckoned to be the most learned of all the Bhatts, has 10 in praise of Guru Nanak, 9 each of Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das, 13 in praise of Guru Ram Das and 12 in praise of Guru Arjan; Jalap who had migrated to Goindval with his father has four his name all of which are in praise of Guru Amar Das; Kirat (d. 1634) has eight savaiye, four each in praise of Guru Amar Das and Guru Ram Dãs; and Mathurã 12, all in praise of Guru Ram Dãs. Salh who has three savaiye extolling the pre-eminence of Guru Amar Dãs (1) and Guru Ram Dãs (2), Bhalh who has one savaiyya in praise of Guru Amar Dãs were the sons of Sekhã, a brother of Rayya.
> 
> Balh who has five savaiye stressing the spiritual oneness of the Gurus was son of Tokhã, another brother of Rayya. Haribañs, the eldest son of Gokha, a brother of Rayya, has two savaiyyes , both in praise of Guru Arjan. Nalh has five savaiyyes all in praise of Guru Ram Das. Das also spelt dasu or dasi, has composed ten savaiyyes including one conjointly written with Sevak, who in addition to this has four savaiyye of his own. Parmanand has five savaiyyes are in praise of Guru Ram das, Tal's single one in praise of Guru Añgad .Jalan has two savaiye in praise of Guru Ram Das, Jalh one in praise of Guru Amar Dãs and Gayand five which glorify Guru Ram Dãs. Of the total 123 , ten each pay homage to Guru Nãnak and Guru Angad, 22 to Guru Amar Dãs, Ram Dãs and 21 to Guru Arjan.
> 
> The main purpose of these savaiye is to acclaim the Gurus, not as individuals but as the revelation they embodied.The Bhatts see the Gurus as one light, as one spirit passing from one body to the other. Bhatt Kirat for instance: Just as (Guru) Angad was ever the part of Guru Nãnak's being so is Guru Ram Dãs of (Guru) Amar Dãs's Again, Bhatt Kalh: From Guru Nanak was Angad: from Angad, Amar Dãs received sublime rank. From Guru Ram Das descended Guru Arjan, the great devotee of God (GG, 1407). This concept of all the Gurus being one light, one voice has informed all along the Sikh belief and development and constitutes today a fundamental principle of the faith



Source: http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Bhatts

Note: The Bhatt, BAL, it is thought by some may be the one and same KAL, who is speaking in the shabad.


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## Ishna

Perhaps it would help me if I was to research what exactly a Hindu avtar is.

Taking the entire shabad into consideration makes a couple of tuks stand out to me which I think help return the reader to the Sikh mindset. I would say they are:

line 1 stanza 2 (sorry I don't know the right term for the different sections) 
He is the Embodiment of Truth; He has enshrined the True Name, Sat Naam, Truth and contentment within His heart. 

Line 3 stanza 5
O mortal being, do not leave this path; do not think that there is any difference between God and Guru.

And all of stanza 7.

When I read this as a Sikh, with no real understanding of Hinduism, and knowing that Waheguru is Ajooni (not born), I gather from the shabad that Guru Arjun is a shining example of a human at the height of God Realisation, who possesses all the qualities of God which you realize by attuning to the Naam. This is not God coming down into one little person, but one little person opening up into God.

Stanza 7 especially reminds me of Sachkhand as in Japji Sahib. The height of human consciousness and spiritual evolution is when you realize you are God looking upon the creation. That's where Guru Arjan was at, which is why Mathura says he is God incarnated.

That's my interpretation.


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## Ishna

Thanks Spnadmin ji for the background on the Bhatts!


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## spnadmin

Ishna ji

I believe that you also put the scanner on exactly why Guru Arjan Dev decided to include these bani in the Adi Granth: the message as he read it is consistent with the message of Guru Nanak.

For me the important reminder is always that Akaal does not incarnate and has no avatars.


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## prakash.s.bagga

ISNA Ji,
I feel that the meaning of the word AVTAARu in the quoted Sabad can be taken as a reference to Guru Arjanu ji showing a trait or typical character to a marked degree
of Prabhu Creator  and this is more clarified with the mentioning of Pratakh Hari.
This is my personal thinking .
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh

Ishna ji,
When one goes from non-dual to dual, these sorts of "differences" arise.

How can Waheguru be  *unborn* when he is present everywhere, He is everything we perceive and our ability to perceive, and present even in a newly born child, when he is the newly born?
Similarly,
How can Waheguru be *born* when he is present everywhere, He is everything we perceive and our ability  to perceive, and present even in a newly born child, when he is the newly  born?

So is he unborn or born at this point?  
Same could be asked of all his other traits. 
Is he a protector or a destroyer? Is he loving or unloving?
Does he incarnate or not? etc etc the list is endless...

Meditating on Waheguru floods the empty glasses of questions. The questions and their answers become unimportant. In fact, if you look closely (ie meditate) the question is realized to be the answer.  
Question: So is he unborn or born? 
Answer: He is unborn and born.

Both point towards the Truth. One must step beyond the duality to see it. Here again I stress how meditation is important. 




> ਸਲੋਕੁ  ॥
> सलोकु ॥
> Salok.
> Shalok:
> 
> ਆਪਹਿ  ਕੀਆ  ਕਰਾਇਆ  ਆਪਹਿ  ਕਰਨੈ  ਜੋਗੁ  ॥
> आपहि कीआ कराइआ आपहि करनै जोगु ॥
> Āpėh kī▫ā karā▫i▫ā āpėh karnai jog.
> He Himself acts, and causes others to act; He Himself can do everything.
> 
> ਨਾਨਕ  ਏਕੋ  ਰਵਿ  ਰਹਿਆ  ਦੂਸਰ  ਹੋਆ  ਨ  ਹੋਗੁ  ॥੧॥
> नानक एको रवि रहिआ दूसर होआ न होगु ॥१॥
> Nānak eko rav rahi▫ā ḏūsar ho▫ā na hog. ||1||
> O Nanak, the One Lord is pervading everywhere; there has never been any other, and there never shall be. ||1||
> 
> ਪਉੜੀ  ॥
> पउड़ी ॥
> Pa▫oṛī.
> Pauree:
> 
> ਓਅੰ  ਸਾਧ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਨਮਸਕਾਰੰ  ॥
> ओअं साध सतिगुर नमसकारं ॥
> O▫aŉ sāḏẖ saṯgur namaskāraŉ.
> ONG: I humbly bow in reverence to the One Universal Creator, to the Holy True Guru.
> 
> ਆਦਿ  ਮਧਿ  ਅੰਤਿ  ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੰ  ॥
> आदि मधि अंति निरंकारं ॥
> Āḏ maḏẖ anṯ niraŉkāraŉ.
> In the beginning, in the middle, and in the end, He is the Formless Lord.
> 
> ਆਪਹਿ  ਸੁੰਨ  ਆਪਹਿ  ਸੁਖ  ਆਸਨ  ॥
> आपहि सुंन आपहि सुख आसन ॥
> Āpėh sunn āpėh sukẖ āsan.
> He Himself is in the absolute state of primal meditation; He Himself is in the seat of peace.
> 
> ਆਪਹਿ  ਸੁਨਤ  ਆਪ  ਹੀ  ਜਾਸਨ  ॥
> आपहि सुनत आप ही जासन ॥
> Āpėh sunaṯ āp hī jāsan.
> He Himself listens to His Own Praises.
> 
> ਆਪਨ  ਆਪੁ  ਆਪਹਿ  ਉਪਾਇਓ  ॥
> आपन आपु आपहि उपाइओ ॥
> Āpan āp āpėh upā▫i▫o.
> He Himself created Himself.
> 
> ਆਪਹਿ  ਬਾਪ  ਆਪ  ਹੀ  ਮਾਇਓ  ॥
> आपहि बाप आप ही माइओ ॥
> Āpėh bāp āp hī mā▫i▫o.
> He is His Own Father, He is His Own Mother.
> 
> ਆਪਹਿ  ਸੂਖਮ  ਆਪਹਿ  ਅਸਥੂਲਾ  ॥
> आपहि सूखम आपहि असथूला ॥
> Āpėh sūkẖam āpėh asthūlā.
> He Himself is subtle and etheric; He Himself is manifest and obvious.
> 
> ਲਖੀ  ਨ  ਜਾਈ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਲੀਲਾ  ॥੧॥
> लखी न जाई नानक लीला ॥१॥
> Lakẖī na jā▫ī Nānak līlā. ||1||
> O Nanak, His wondrous play cannot be understood. ||1||
> 
> ਕਰਿ  ਕਿਰਪਾ  ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਦੀਨ  ਦਇਆਲਾ  ॥
> करि किरपा प्रभ दीन दइआला ॥
> Kar kirpā parabẖ ḏīn ḏa▫i▫ālā.
> O God, Merciful to the meek, please be kind to me,
> 
> ਤੇਰੇ  ਸੰਤਨ  ਕੀ  ਮਨੁ  ਹੋਇ  ਰਵਾਲਾ  ॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
> तेरे संतन की मनु होइ रवाला ॥ रहाउ ॥
> Ŧere sanṯan kī man ho▫e ravālā. Rahā▫o.
> that my mind might become the dust of the feet of Your Saints. ||Pause||
> 
> ਸਲੋਕੁ  ॥
> सलोकु ॥
> Salok.
> Shalok:
> 
> ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ  ਆਕਾਰ  ਆਪਿ  ਨਿਰਗੁਨ  ਸਰਗੁਨ  ਏਕ  ॥
> निरंकार आकार आपि निरगुन सरगुन एक ॥
> Nirankār ākār āp nirgun sargun ek.
> He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes.
> 
> ਏਕਹਿ  ਏਕ  ਬਖਾਨਨੋ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਏਕ  ਅਨੇਕ  ॥੧॥
> एकहि एक बखाननो नानक एक अनेक ॥१॥
> Ėkėh ek bakẖānano Nānak ek anek. ||1||
> Describe the One Lord as One, and Only One; O Nanak, He is the One, and the many. ||1||
> 
> ਪਉੜੀ  ॥
> पउड़ी ॥
> Pa▫oṛī.
> Pauree:
> 
> ਓਅੰ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਕੀਓ  ਅਕਾਰਾ  ॥
> ओअं गुरमुखि कीओ अकारा ॥
> O▫aŉ gurmukẖ kī▫o akārā.
> ONG: The One Universal Creator created the Creation through the Word of the Primal Guru.
> 
> ਏਕਹਿ  ਸੂਤਿ  ਪਰੋਵਨਹਾਰਾ  ॥
> एकहि सूति परोवनहारा ॥
> Ėkėh sūṯ parovanhārā.
> He strung it upon His one thread.
> 
> ਭਿੰਨ  ਭਿੰਨ  ਤ੍ਰੈ  ਗੁਣ  ਬਿਸਥਾਰੰ  ॥
> भिंन भिंन त्रै गुण बिसथारं ॥
> Bẖinn bẖinn ṯarai guṇ bisthāraŉ.
> He created the diverse expanse of the three qualities.
> 
> ਨਿਰਗੁਨ  ਤੇ  ਸਰਗੁਨ  ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਰੰ  ॥
> निरगुन ते सरगुन द्रिसटारं ॥
> Nirgun ṯe sargun ḏaristāraŉ.
> From formless, He appeared as form.
> 
> ਸਗਲ  ਭਾਤਿ  ਕਰਿ  ਕਰਹਿ  ਉਪਾਇਓ  ॥
> सगल भाति करि करहि उपाइओ ॥
> Sagal bẖāṯ kar karahi upā▫i▫o.
> The Creator has created the creation of all sorts.
> 
> ਜਨਮ  ਮਰਨ  ਮਨ  ਮੋਹੁ  ਬਢਾਇਓ  ॥
> जनम मरन मन मोहु बढाइओ ॥
> Janam maran man moh badẖā▫i▫o.
> The attachment of the mind has led to birth and death.
> 
> ਦੁਹੂ  ਭਾਤਿ  ਤੇ  ਆਪਿ  ਨਿਰਾਰਾ  ॥
> दुहू भाति ते आपि निरारा ॥
> Ḏuhū bẖāṯ ṯe āp nirārā.
> He Himself is above both, untouched and unaffected.
> 
> ਨਾਨਕ  ਅੰਤੁ  ਨ  ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰਾ  ॥੨॥
> नानक अंतु न पारावारा ॥२॥
> Nānak anṯ na pārāvārā. ||2||
> O Nanak, He has no end or limitation. ||2||
> .....


  pp250


PS "Avtar" and similar words are used by other authors in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as well. Ishna ji maybe you should have a look at those as you look at this shabad. 

Do a search of " incarnate" (<space> then incarnate) on srigranth.org


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## prakash.s.bagga

There is very important point to understand in the message given by Bhagat Singh ji.
and that point is "Unborn and Born"
Definitely there is something that takes birth and there is other thing that does not take birth and this thing is Ajoonee.
These two are different things  not like that the same thing is unborned and Borned as well.
e should try to grasp this point from the understanding of Gurbaani and the understanding of this is again related to the concept of GuRU and GuR.

Prakash.s.bagga


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## spnadmin

We need to stay on the topic of the thread. Is the shabad suggesting that Nanak 4 is an "incarnation" of Waheguru. Thanks.


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## prakash.s.bagga

There is specific quote from Gurbaani which is as under

"Meree Meree Dhari Bandhani Bandheya
Naraki Suragi Avtaar Mayaa Dhandiyaa" pp761 SGGS

We should therefore understand the reference meaning of the word Avtaar in view of above message.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin

Prakash ji, Please understand that I am not contradicting you as much as I am asking that the conversation adhere to the original questions. It is a slippery slope once we begin to move in the direction of all the other meanings of "incarnation" relative to ajooni, relative to born/unborn, relative to realized and unrealized forms, relative to duality. Those are different topics, a different discussion. Threads wander here and there and everywhere. Then they have to be closed and/or split anyway. Now I am prepared to do that today if I must. 

Was Guru Arjan Dev an incarnation of Waheguru? If I wanted to throw this thread off course, all I have to do is say that Waheguru never appears in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So Guru Arjan Dev couldn't be an incarnation therefore. At that point,  SPN can have a long argument about that which we have had so many times before. Of course I am kidding by making this suggestion, but trying to make a point.

Your last question is a good one as long as we stay on topic.

 Thanks.


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## Adi Nanaki

Guru Arjan is often referred to as Partuk Har--God incarnate, at the Golden Temple and elsewhere. Yet the translation of this shabad is not always correct. For instance, in the last line, where it claims God and Guru Arjan have no difference, I believe it is saying that there are no secrets between God and Guru Arjan. 

God is in everyone's heart, in all of Creation. This is a non issue. 

Blessings


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## aristotle

The basic fabric of the Bani composed by Bhatts has been widely misunderstood, even by some of the well-informed Sikhs. In Sikhism, the word is the Guru, and manifestation of the Lord. The Ten human Gurus are considered the 'humanization' of the word. When the Bhatts praise the Gurus as 'Avatars' or tell us to meditate on them, it is not in the Hindu sense of the word, but as the manifestation of Gurbani. I ask you, how would you meditate on any Guru, we have no authentic picture, no photograph, not even a graphic description of how the Gurus looked like. The only way we can meditate on the Gurus is through Gurbani, by reading and practising the same, and by bringing into our lives the virtues the Gurus themselves obeyed throughout their lives.
The idea of ousting the Bani of the Bhatts and Bhagats from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is very ridiculous and disgusting. The Gurus themselves included these Banis in the 'Birs' of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, and they are according to the Sikh code of conduct. If any Sanatani or Hindu tries to put any blemish on these Banis, he should be strongly dealt with. Instead, we should put more stress on interpreting these Banis according to Gurmat and rectifying the failures of the earlier translations(Professor Sahib Singh has attempted a sincere translation of the Banis of the Bhatts and Bhagats, any person having any doubt about these Banis may refer to the same). That would be of more help to Sikhism, rather than a long stretched blame game.


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## prakash.s.bagga

It would be important to understand that the reference of the word "Avtaar" in the Shabad is GuRu  not GuRU.Since we are writing in English language so we are misled in the understanding of the reference meanings of the words GuRu and GuRU.
Once we understand this  the meaning of the word Avtaar would become more clear.

If we take the reference the word GuRU or WAHi GuRU .the meaning of the Avtaar is certainly going to bedifferent than the reference word GuRu.

We should therfore look for the appropriate meaning of Avtaar with reference to GuRu.

For understanding the difference in GuRu and GuRu one may look at Gurmukhi version of SGGS.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga

ARISTOTLE Ji,
I fully agree with your message.As a matter of fact there is crux of  knowledge of the whole Gurbaani hidden in the messages of Baans of Bhatts.Therefore there is need to understand this Baani as suggested by you,We are grossly mistaken when we consider the Baanis of Bhatts merely as praise of GuRU s in Human form.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Gurmatt places absolutely no importance on the DEH..the HUMAN BODY.
There is NO HISTORY....None of the GURUS showed the least interest in wriiting down "History"..dates of birth, marriage, parents names brothers sisters etc etc...because DEH is of no value..except to "TRANSFER" GURBANI..which is the REAL GURU for all time.

2. SEE how a Fictitious Bhai bala was used to write the "Janamsakhi" of Guru nanak ji...a book proven fake and written in the 1700's....long after Guru nanak ji had passed on.
IF it is to be believed that Guur ANGAD JI made such an "effort" to call in Bhai bala and ask him to record the Janamsakhi details about Guru nanak ji....why DIDNT Guru Amardass Ji..or the succeeding GURUS make any effort to write down the JANAMSAKHIS of the preceeding GURUS ?? Guru Amardass ji didnt write a single word about the life of Guru Angad Ji..Nor did Guru ramdass Ji bother to record the life details of Guru Amardass Ji...Guur Arjun Ji wrote such a HUGE GRANTH..but didnt write a SINGLE WORD about the LIFE of Guru ramdass Ji...or his family........BUT the GURBANI was all faithfully RECORDED.

3. The FAKE Bhai Bala Janamslakhi, ,the Gurbilas Patshhai Chhevin, Gurbialas Patshhai Dasveen, Bachittra Natak etc etc which ALL CONCENTRATE ON "history" rather than GURBANI were all written by OTHERS than the GURUS. Bhai Gurdass Ji who almost certainly KNEW all the details DID NOT WRITE much "history"..and perhaps its becasue of the TINY AMOUNTS of "history" that his Vaars were REJECTED for inclusion into SGGS by Guru Arjun Ji and instead bestowed an honour that his vaars are "recommended reading" to improve oens understanding of Gurbani in SGGS.

3. SIKH HISTORY...has to pass the "GURBANI TOUCHSTONE"...in order to get accpeted. IF nay so called historical detail FAILS the Gurbani TEST..its fake/ unreliable...as the One and ONLY totally RELIABLE is GURBANI.

ON this Basis..the Avtaars..concept as usually shown in Hinduism doesnt APPLY to the Sikh Gurus. The SIKH GURUS are "Waheguru"..in so far as they brought down GURBANI..and in this same context SGGS is THE WORD...and The WORD is Waheguru in the tangible way we humans can "conceptualise" God/Creator/Allah/Raam/Rahim whatever. About the Only persons interested in perpetuating the HUMAN DEH..as avtaar..sant..saadh..mahapurash//Baba Ji..Sri 1008 etc etc are those who want THEIR OWN BODIES to be worshipped by other..."lesser humans"...and this has been happening since time immemorial....some humans are worshipped..some are worshippable..some worship......the BHATTS coming form a Hindu background "see" the Guru human as avtaaar.


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## BhagatSingh

Gyani ji,


> Gurmatt places absolutely no importance on the DEH..the HUMAN BODY.





> The SIKH GURUS are "Waheguru"..in so far as they brought down GURBANI


I think the body (any body) is pretty darn important if it gets you to Gurmat/Gurbani.


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## prakash.s.bagga

If we look at the Dictionary meanings of the word Incarnation we get the following

1.....Embdiment in flesh esp Human

2....A person showing a trait ortypical character to a marked degree

We are taking the meaning of the word Avtaar as mentioned  at...no 1
whereas as per concept of Gurbaani philosophy  the meaning at..No 2 seems to be more appropriate.

I feel it would unreasonable to say that since Bhatts had Hindu Background so they used this word Avtaar to mean as mentioned at No..1.
If bacground is critical in conveying the messages as given in Gurbaani then we should be aware of the background of everyones thru whom the whole Baani is revealed,In fact any Baani which is a part of Dhurki  Baani becomes independent of the Background and therefore we are required to know the appropriate meanings of the words conformng to the philosophy of Gurbaani.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga

It is equally important to get the understanding from Gurbaani that the word GuRU 
is the reference for the BODY thru which Baani is being revealed.
From above point of view Baani is GuR not GuRU as we understand.
So GuRU and GuR both are important in different context in Gurbaani.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

BhagatSingh said:


> Gyani ji,
> I think the body (any body) is pretty darn important if it gets you to Gurmat/Gurbani.



Not in the "way" deh is important in the "Avtaar"..sant..baba ji..mahapurash thingy....like drinking water used to wash the baba jis feet..wash his kachera etc...eat a "mahapurash's" .. Left overs..jhootha food...or just look..darshan...mehr bharee nazar can give  make a infertile bride fertile..any guarantee a SON...win the court case..make your business prsoper etc...NO WAY.

THAT way of Human deh is NOT recognosed/importnat in Gurbani.

I think what you mean is that the HUMAN BODY....ghar of the Akal Purakh (Harmandar)...is VITAL to emancipation fo the Soul...with that concept i agree 110%. Without human birth there is no possibility of merger with the Creator....this is Gurbani's assertion  and I beleive it.


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## prakash.s.bagga

Human Birth is not the necessary condition for achieving "Salvation".Salvation is possible in any form other than Human This can be understood from Gurbaani where we find an Elephant got Salvation thru the Simran of RAAmu.
However Human form is very sinificant for knowing the Creator which is not possible in any other form.
Salvation is possible thru Nadari of The Creator only.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Adi Nanaki

I agree with you for the most part, except in our ways to relate to the Gurus. I also experience them as separate entities, as well as all being contained in SGGS, by breathing their names, or by thinking of one Guru, or all of the Gurus at once, and breathing, "You are me, I am you. I am you, you are me." -- Tohi mohi, mohi, Tohi." Doing so gives a profound, sublime sense of their presence, unexpectedly, by Gurus Grace.


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## prakash.s.bagga

There is a Quote from Gurbaani as

"HARi Kaa Sewaku So HARi Jehaa..Bhed Naa Jannahu Mannas Dehaa
Jeeu Lal Tarang Uthahi Bahu Bhatee Firi Salale Salal Samaayedaa"   
                                                                            pp1076SGGS
From above we can see the Significance of Human Dehaa with reference to 
Creator HARi
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin

"Human Deh" is a horse, a beast of burden, which takes the whip of Divine love, and wears the saddle of meditation to reach the ultimate destination. My deh, your deh, deh of Guru Arjan Dev ji .... a horse that crosses the terrifying world ocean, and with Guru's grace, the rider realizes the Sat. Whether we call Guru Arjan Dev an avatar, an incarnation, these are labels, sometimes very misleading labels. Too much can be made of the wrong aspect of "body and soul."


Duality is over come when a human life is blessed with God's love, and does some work of its own too:


> Imbued with God's love, the God's lover, night and day, sings God's praise and becomes like. God.




The body which takes the form of human life is a fine horse like "fine gold." With the grace of the Guru becomes imbued with the color of the poppy, red, the color of divine love. That body/horse is beautiful only when it is "bedecked" with the name of Hari. 

That body/mare was created to wear the saddle of meditation on the Lord's name.


> The good Lord's meditation is the saddle, which I put on the body mare.



Understanding and love, gian and prem, take the place of the bridle and whip. 





> Applying the whip of the Lord's love to his body, the holy man/gurmukh conquers his mind and wins the battle



That body/mare needs to hear the divine music uttered by the Guru...in other words ...the horse must heed the horse-whisperer to be imbued with God's love.





> Hearing with thine, ears, the hymns, uttered by the Guru, imbue thou, thy body steed, with God's love.



That body/mare attains merit by living a virtuous life. 


> By which the Lord God is meditated upon, auspicious and praise-worthy is that body mare. It is obtained through the accumulated past good actions.



That body/mare races through life in but a flash in time, a fleeting horse, by design. We ride her to supreme bliss through meditation (the saddle).





> The fleeting body mare has been created by my Lord Master.



That body/mare is the beast of burden, who takes us to our final destination 





> Mounting the body mare, the mortal crosses the arduous world ocean and by Guru's grace, meets with God, the embodiment of supreme bliss.




ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ 
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ. 
There is but One God. By True Guru's grace, He is obtained. 

ਦੇਹ ਤੇਜਣਿ ਜੀ ਰਾਮਿ ਉਪਾਈਆ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
Blessed is the human life, which is attained through virtue. 

ਮਾਣਸ ਜਨਮੁ ਵਡ ਪੁੰਨੇ ਪਾਇਆ ਦੇਹ ਸੁ ਕੰਚਨ ਚੰਗੜੀਆ ॥ 
Māṇas janam vad punne pā▫i▫ā ḏeh so kancẖan cẖangṛī▫ā. 
The human life obtained by supreme merit and the said body is like the fine gold. 

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਚਲੂਲਾ ਪਾਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਵ ਰੰਗੜੀਆ ॥ 
Gurmukẖ rang cẖalūlā pāvai har har har nav rangṛī▫ā. 
By Guru's grace the body attains the poppy flower like colour, and is imbued in the new colour of Lords God's Name. 

ਏਹ ਦੇਹ ਸੁ ਬਾਂਕੀ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਪੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੁਹਾਵੀਆ ॥ 
Ėh ḏeh so bāŉkī jiṯ har jāpī har har nām suhāvī▫ā. 
Very beauteous is this body, which dwells on God and with the Lord God's Name, it is bedecked. 

ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਪਾਈ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਖਾਈ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਮਿ ਉਪਾਈਆ ॥੧॥ 
vadbẖāgī pā▫ī nām sakẖā▫ī jan Nānak rām upā▫ī▫ā. ||1|| 
Through the greatest good fortune, this body is obtained. The Lord's Name is its succourer and the Lord has created it, O slave Nanak. 

ਦੇਹ ਪਾਵਉ ਜੀਨੁ ਬੁਝਿ ਚੰਗਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
Ḏeh pāva▫o jīn bujẖ cẖanga rām. 
The good Lord's meditation is the saddle, which I put on the body mare. 

ਚੜਿ ਲੰਘਾ ਜੀ ਬਿਖਮੁ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
Cẖaṛ langẖā jī bikẖam bẖu▫i▫angā rām. 
Riding this body mare, I cross the arduous world ocean. 

ਬਿਖਮੁ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਾ ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਏ ॥ 
Bikẖam bẖu▫i▫angā anaṯ ṯarangā gurmukẖ pār langẖā▫e. 
The difficult ocean has countless waves and the Supreme Guru, ferries the man across. 

ਹਰਿ ਬੋਹਿਥਿ ਚੜਿ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਲੰਘੈ ਗੁਰੁ ਖੇਵਟੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਤਰਾਏ ॥ 
Har bohith cẖaṛ vadbẖāgī langẖai gur kẖevat sabaḏ ṯarā▫e. 
Embarking on the Lord's ship, the fortunate ones cross over the with his hymns, Guru's the boatman, ferries across the mortals. 

ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗੀ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥ 
An▫ḏin har rang har guṇ gāvai har rangī har rangā. 
Imbued with God's love, the God's lover, night and day, sings God's praise and becomes like. God. 

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਬਾਣ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਉਤਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਪਦੁ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੨॥ 
Jan Nānak nirbāṇ paḏ pā▫i▫ā har uṯam har paḏ cẖanga. ||2|| 
The servant, O Nanak, has attained the state of emancipation, the Lord's commendable and sublime Divine state. 

ਕੜੀਆਲੁ ਮੁਖੇ ਗੁਰਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
Kaṛī▫āl mukẖe gur gi▫ān driṛ▫ā▫i▫ā rām. 
In place of the bridle in the mouth, the Guru has implanted gnosis/understanding within me. 

ਤਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਚਾਬਕੁ ਲਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥  
Ŧan parem har cẖābak lā▫i▫ā rām. 
He has applied the whip of God's love to my body. 

ਤਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਾਇ ਚਾਬਕੁ ਮਨੁ ਜਿਣੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜੀਤਿਆ ॥ 
Ŧan parem har har lā▫e cẖābak man jiṇai gurmukẖ jīṯi▫ā. 
Applying the whip of the Lord's love to his body, the holy man/gurmukh conquers his mind and wins the battle. 

ਅਘੜੋ ਘੜਾਵੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਾਵੈ ਅਪਿਉ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਤਿਆ ॥ 
Agẖ▫ṛo gẖaṛāvai sabaḏ pāvai api▫o har ras pīṯi▫ā. 
He trains his untrained mind with the Divine word and drinks in the animating God's Nectar 

ਸੁਣਿ ਸ੍ਰਵਣ ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਤੁਰੀ ਚੜਾਇਆ ॥ 
Suṇ sarvaṇ baṇī gur vakẖāṇī har rang ṯurī cẖaṛā▫i▫ā. 
Hearing with thine, ears, the hymns, uttered by the Guru, imbue thou, thy body steed, with God's love. 

ਮਹਾ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਪੰਥੁ ਬਿਖੜਾ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਇਆ ॥੩॥ 
Mahā mārag panth bikẖ▫ṛā jan Nānak pār langẖā▫i▫ā. ||3|| 
Servant Nanak has traversed across the path, the very arduous path of death. 

ਘੋੜੀ ਤੇਜਣਿ ਦੇਹ ਰਾਮਿ ਉਪਾਈਆ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
Gẖoṛī ṯejaṇ ḏeh rām upā▫ī▫ā rām. 
The fleeting body mare has been created by my Lord Master. 

ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਸਾ ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਤੁਖਾਈਆ ਰਾਮ ॥ 
Jiṯ har parabẖ jāpai sā ḏẖan ḏẖan ṯukẖā▫ī▫ā rām. 
Blessed! blessed is the body mare, by which the Lord God is meditated upon. 

ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਜਾਪੈ ਸਾ ਧੰਨੁ ਸਾਬਾਸੈ ਧੁਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਜੁੜੰਦਾ ॥ 
Jiṯ har parabẖ jāpai sā ḏẖan sābāsai ḏẖur pā▫i▫ā kiraṯ juṛanḏā. 
By which the Lord God is meditated upon, auspicious and praise-worthy is that body mare. It is obtained through the accumulated past good actions. 

ਚੜਿ ਦੇਹੜਿ ਘੋੜੀ ਬਿਖਮੁ ਲਘਾਏ ਮਿਲੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦਾ ॥  
Cẖaṛ ḏehaṛ gẖoṛī bikẖam lagẖā▫e mil gurmukẖ parmānanḏā. 
Mounting the body mare, the mortal crosses the arduous world ocean and by Guru's grace, meets with God, the embodiment of supreme bliss. 

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ਪੂਰੈ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਜੰਞ ਆਈ ॥ 
Har har kāj racẖā▫i▫ā pūrai mil sanṯ janā jañ ā▫ī. 
The Perfect Lord Master has arranged the wedding. Meeting together, the pious persons have come as a marriage party. 

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਵਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮੰਗਲੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਵਾਧਾਈ ॥੪॥੧॥੫॥ 
Jan Nānak har var pā▫i▫ā mangal mil sanṯ janā vāḏẖā▫ī. ||4||1||5|| 
The serf Nanak, has obtained God as his spouse, Meeting together, the saints sing the song of joy and congratulate him. 

Ang 575, Guru Ram Das

The metaphor of a horse, very often a mare, a female horse, is used over and over. The horse carries her rider, as the body carries the soul. The metaphor is used to stress that the purpose of this body is to do work, to live a life of virtuous action and to mediate on God's name, in order to carry the burden of the soul to its ultimate destination. The path of this body/horse is an arduous journey to death. No glamorous, intensely theosophical script is played out in the shabad. The body is a horse, not an avatar of a celestial divinity. Guru Arjan Dev knew that when he sat on the hotplate. When he made his own arduous journey. Were he an avatar in the Vedic way, we would be talking instead of his ingenious and speedy escape, not his martyrdom. He did instead what he had to do.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Bagga Ji,
imho that tuk is declaring that we should be.."seeing" HIM in his Bhagats...as we "see" the WAVES..as the WATER....
I dont agree that this is saying that the Human Deh is WORSHIPPABLE as in the AVTAAR concept. The GURU SAHIBAANS DID NOT JOIN US to their DEHs.....they joined us to the SHABAD..and that is the reason for ENDING the 10 Human Guru lineage and passing Gurgadee of nanak to SGGS.
Apologies if misunderstood in any way.


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## prakash.s.bagga

GYANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
I think my message is being misconstrued in the context of the word Avtaar.I have already made the possible meaning of the word Avtaar in my previous messages.The meaning is with reference to the word GuRu in the Shabad. Since the word GuRu is reffering to JOTi.Certainly the JOTi can never take avtaar in the sense of vedic concept of Avtaar..
I think this makes my point clear.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin

prakash s. bagga ji

No, I am more in wonder. Are you saying then that Gurus were avatars of the same jyoti? Or that having the same jyoti made them avatars of one and the same GuRu? If in human form each of the 10 Gurus and the 11th Sri Guru Granth Sahib carry the same jyoti, why is it even necessary to use the word avatar? Or, put another way, what other sense but the Vedic sense of avatar is there? Not science fiction, I do not think.


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## prakash.s.bagga

Spnadmin ji,
You just want to know why it is necessar to use the word Avtaar This thread is related to getting the some appropriate meaning to this only.
I have already clarified that I consider the word meaning as a reference for a personshowing a trait or typical characterto a marked degree {in this case it is the Creator}.Nowhere I have ever said that the Avtaar has been used in Vedic sense this is your assumption.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga

GYANI Jarnail Singh Ji,
I would like to have your views for a Quote from Gurbaani.

"Dhanu Dhanu Pitaa Dhanu Dhanu Kulu Dhanh Dhanu Su Jananee Jini GuRU Janniyaa Maaye"   pp310 SGGS

Here the word is GuRU not GuRu {I am sure you understand the difference in the reference meanings of GuRU and GuRu.

The quote clearly tells about the birth of GuRU.
I think if we can understand this the actual meaning of the word Avtaar would be more clarified.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh

lol @ all the commotion (is it commotion?)

Prakash Singh ji,
Going back to the definition of Avtars you posted...
1.....Embodiment in flesh esp Human

i.e Formless (creator) taking Form (creation)


2....A person showing a trait or typical character to a marked degree

i.e. Form (creation) showing lots of Formlessness (creator)

Also to clarify (I hope) that the Creator is the Formless + Form.

So now what is the difference between the two definitions?

And what is this 'Vedic concept of Avtars' you all speak of?


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## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga said:


> There is specific quote from Gurbaani which is as under
> 
> "Meree Meree Dhari Bandhani Bandheya
> Naraki Suragi Avtaar Mayaa Dhandiyaa" pp761 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
> 
> We should therefore understand the reference meaning of the word Avtaar in view of above message.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash.S.Bagga ji I continue to be amazed that you do not quote complete Shabads.  Isn't this part of spn TOS.  Regardless, I tried to look for 761 in the following versus what your post says and could not find your transcribed tuks,

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=761&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0

The difficulty is you throw a line here and a line there with sprinkling of Gur, GuRu, GuRU, etc., without describing what differences you are trying to illustrate.

Can you please help fellow spners by quoting complete and properly and describe words like Gur, GuRu, GuRU, etc., you repeatedly like using and keep emphasizing their importance without describing what are you driving at.

Please help others learn by following spn TOS and decribing the words identified above.  The phoenetic differences through your use of capital "U" or small "u" need to be clearly stated when you use these.  Your phonetics is not the same as everyone trained in English from various teachers and hence it is possible confusion will arise and it is definitely the case for me.

So again please help your fellow spners if you can.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga said:


> GYANI Jarnail Singh Ji,
> I would like to have your views for a Quote from Gurbaani.
> 
> "Dhanu Dhanu Pitaa Dhanu Dhanu Kulu Dhanh Dhanu Su Jananee Jini GuRU Janniyaa Maaye"   pp310 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
> 
> Here the word is GuRU not GuRu {I am sure you understand the difference in the reference meanings of GuRU and GuRu.
> 
> The quote clearly tells about the birth of GuRU.
> I think if we can understand this the actual meaning of the word Avtaar would be more clarified.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash.s.bagga ji, I am ashamed to note that your tuk references are so out of context and absolutely prove nothing if not mislead.  I copy the shabad that you refer to below,


> ਮਃ  ੪  ॥
> मः ४ ॥
> Mėhlā 4.
> Fourth Mehl:
> 
> ਸਾ  ਧਰਤੀ  ਭਈ  ਹਰੀਆਵਲੀ  ਜਿਥੈ  ਮੇਰਾ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਬੈਠਾ  ਆਇ  ॥
> सा धरती भई हरीआवली जिथै मेरा सतिगुरु बैठा आइ ॥
> Sā ḏẖarṯī bẖa▫ī harī▫āvalī jithai merā saṯgur baiṯẖā ā▫e.
> That land, where my True Guru comes and sits, becomes green and fertile.
> 
> ਸੇ  ਜੰਤ  ਭਏ  ਹਰੀਆਵਲੇ  ਜਿਨੀ  ਮੇਰਾ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਦੇਖਿਆ  ਜਾਇ  ॥
> से जंत भए हरीआवले जिनी मेरा सतिगुरु देखिआ जाइ ॥
> Se janṯ bẖa▫e harī▫āvle jinī merā saṯgur ḏekẖi▫ā jā▫e.
> Those beings who go and behold my True Guru are rejuvenated.
> 
> ਧਨੁ  ਧੰਨੁ  ਪਿਤਾ  ਧਨੁ  ਧੰਨੁ  ਕੁਲੁ  ਧਨੁ  ਧਨੁ  ਸੁ  ਜਨਨੀ  ਜਿਨਿ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਜਣਿਆ  ਮਾਇ  ॥
> धनु धंनु पिता धनु धंनु कुलु धनु धनु सु जननी जिनि गुरू जणिआ माइ ॥
> Ḏẖan ḏẖan piṯā ḏẖan ḏẖan kul ḏẖan ḏẖan so jannī jin gurū jaṇi▫ā mā▫e.
> Blessed, blessed is the father; blessed, blessed is the family; blessed, blessed is the mother, who gave birth to the Guru.
> 
> ਧਨੁ  ਧੰਨੁ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਜਿਨਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਅਰਾਧਿਆ  ਆਪਿ  ਤਰਿਆ  ਜਿਨੀ  ਡਿਠਾ  ਤਿਨਾ  ਲਏ  ਛਡਾਇ  ॥
> धनु धंनु गुरू जिनि नामु अराधिआ आपि तरिआ जिनी डिठा तिना लए छडाइ ॥
> Ḏẖan ḏẖan gurū jin nām arāḏẖi▫ā āp ṯari▫ā jinī diṯẖā ṯinā la▫e cẖẖadā▫e.
> Blessed, blessed is the Guru, who worships and adores the Naam; He saves Himself, and emancipates those who see Him.
> 
> ਹਰਿ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਮੇਲਹੁ  ਦਇਆ  ਕਰਿ  ਜਨੁ  ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਧੋਵੈ  ਪਾਇ  ॥੨॥
> हरि सतिगुरु मेलहु दइआ करि जनु नानकु धोवै पाइ ॥२॥
> Har saṯgur melhu ḏa▫i▫ā kar jan Nānak ḏẖovai pā▫e. ||2||
> O Lord, be kind, and unite me with the True Guru, that servant Nanak may wash His feet. ||2||


It even at very cursory look referes to the connotation of a teacher who teaches the understanding of creator and creation.  It neither calls such a son of God, avatar, or anything else that you may be driving at.

Very disturbing and I hope I am wrong.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga

Bhgat Singh Ji,
My answer to your question is as under

First thing it can be understood from Gurbaani that the CREATOR being refered in SGGS is not FORMLESS as we think.
Gurbaani clearly tells us about the FORM of CREATOR and this is stated to be WAVE FORM {JOTi}.We are required to recognise this FORM of the CREATOR.
I think you can verify this yourself from within Gurbaani.

Second point regarding "Vedic concept of Avtaar".This I think refers to Taking Birth of any Human with embodiment of the Creator.There can be some other meaning too which I may not be knowing.
Since Vedic Conceptof Avtaar isnot applicable in Sikh philosophy of Gurbaani so I just tried to find our some appropriate meaning So I have mentioned to that as a probable approprite meaning which is likely to conform Sikh Philosophy of Gurbaani.

I think I have answered your question as  my own understanding.I may be rectified.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh

Prakash Singh ji.
To my understanding, Jyoti is Formless. By Formless I mean Nirgun and by Form, Sargun. (I posted some writings from SGGS couple posts back to Ishna ji.)

What are your thoughts on them?


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## Ambarsaria

prakash.s.bagga ji I am not sure I understand.


prakash.s.bagga said:


> Bhgat Singh Ji,
> My answer to your question is as under
> 
> First thing it can be understood from Gurbaani that the CREATOR being refered in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not FORMLESS as we think.
> _Gurbaani clearly tells us about the FORM of CREATOR and this is stated to be WAVE FORM {JOTi}._We are required to recognise this FORM of the CREATOR.
> 
> I think you can verify this yourself from within Gurbaani.
> 
> _I don't know why but I am feeling greater shock with lot of this posts and the high regard that I generally held you in.   I have underlined the sentence that I don't understand.  Please provide complete Shabads illustrating your point._


I would love to catch the wave you are talking about versus the effort to understand.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh

Ambarsaria ji, 
catch the wave = effort to understand

Why the shock when both set of words point towards the Truth?


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## Ambarsaria

BhagatSingh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> catch the wave = effort to understand
> 
> Why the shock when both set of words point towards the Truth?


Bhagat singh ji you have to help me,

Please identify the wave or link to the same as it would have been much easier for Guru ji to just say it is just a wave that is going through the following,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/35550-so-dar-meanings.html#post147585

As a matter of fact one could just state as a wave and dependency on this wave in all things happening, this is far from what Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji teaches us, as for my understanding

Thanks for your good posts, I am happy to seek clarification.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga

Bhagat Singh Ji,
As I can understand the Nirgun and Surgun is the reference for the property not for the form of JOTi.I would be intersted in knowing from your goodself as to where Gurbaani is telling us that the CREATOR is Formless. This would certainly help in improving my own understanding.
In Gurbaani this JOTiis refered as Tarang in several verses of Gurbaani.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh

Ambarsaria ji,
I understand your frustration. I'll do my best to help you. 
Jyot is the eternal soul under whose command the entire universe operates (as poetically uttered in Pauri 27). 
Another way of saying it would be:
In this Formlessness, takes place the play of forms. This play of forms and the formlessness in which it takes place, cannot be understood. It is infinitely vast, rich, complex... it can only be tasted from moment to moment. Similar to how one can drink from an ocean but cannot comprehend it. It can be tasted because You *are *the Formless and the Form. The droplet in the ocean, is the ocean.

In addition:
For Prakash Singh ji, Gurbani says the Creator is Formless and filled with Form. Please contemplate this shabad: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/quest...an-as-incarnation-of-waheguru.html#post149160

To bring this back to Avtars. The Avtar is the embodiment of the Formless. In other words, Avtar has realized that it is the Formless. In other words, Jyot has fully taken over the Deh of the Avtar. In other words, Avtar is a very wise being. In other words, Avtar has understood the creator and creation and lives in consonance with it. In other words, <what Ishna ji said in her second post> tee hee!


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## Ambarsaria

BhagatSingh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> I understand your frustration. I'll do my best to help you.
> Jyot is the eternal soul under whose command the entire universe operates (as poetically uttered in Pauri 27).
> Another way of saying it would be:
> In this Formlessness, takes place the play of forms. This play of forms and the formlessness in which it takes place, cannot be understood. It is infinitely vast, rich, complex... it can only be tasted from moment to moment. Similar to how one can drink from an ocean but cannot comprehend it. It can be tasted because You *are *the Formless and the Form. The droplet in the ocean, is the ocean.


Bhagat Singh ji I simply understand that to be "the creator" and the resulting "the creation".  I am cool with that.  This wave theory business is little far fetched.

I do believe also that this "Jyot" merging with the so called "Big Jyot" is a concept much maligned in that it make people believe that some effort is required to be part of what they are already part of.  It becomes an end in itself.

Guru Granth Sahib ji and out Gurus teachings teach us beyond the effort of merging.  They teach us to understand creation and work with this understanding for living in consonance of the creation that surrounds each and every one of us.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS:  I believe Ishna ji definitely did a great post as you flagged.  There is a slight dilemma I have.  I will post it as a reply to Isna ji's second post.


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## Adi Nanaki

Also, how do you perceive Guruship when at times there were up to five Gurus past present and future alive at the same time?


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## BhagatSingh

Ambarsaria ji,
Sure, if you find those words attractive. But that merging thing, that's what it kind of feels like, at least that's one way to describe it. You melt away into...
Imagine the waves and how it rises and falls back. It's never separate but it feels like it is. "I'm a wave!" it says. It is present for a moment then it merges with the source. In the end, all waves are just ocean moving around.

Ultimately, all these are just words. The essence cannot be put into words.

Adi Nanaki ji,
How do you mean?


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## Ambarsaria

Adi Nanaki said:


> Also, how do you perceive Guruship when at times there were up to five Gurus past present and future alive at the same time?


Adi Nanaki ji I am not sure if your question is general or addressed to me.

From my perspective it goes without saying that Gurus were brilliant in their own ways as well as different from each other in worldly ways and not necessarily spiritually.  So Guru Arjun Dev ji was considered the most appropriate to be creating the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as a collection of all the Gurbani contributors thereof.  It will speak of aspects beyond spirituality per se as well including embedding structure in arrangements to make it difficult to make changes to the writings later.

All Gurus were part of creation and supportive of the one creator as well as telling all that they were also part of the same set up.

There is no question that our love, regard and respect has no limits but Guru ji did not believe in avtars nor they wanted to be known as one.  This is my understanding from limited understanding that I may have.

With great respect for all.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga

It is quite understandable that the concept of JOTi  Wave or Tarang  as form of Creator may be disturbing for many of us because we have so far never understood Gurbaani messages in terms of SABAD TARANG.However this concept of SABAD TARANG or WAVE 
in Gurbaani can not be overlooked.
We should try to grasp the concept it would enable us to get the intrisic meanings of Gurbaani and we can consolidate Sikh philosophy as quite distinct in the world..
So long as we shall be understanding our Gurbaani thru the lense of western philosophy based on word GOD or as In India thru the lense of Hindu philosophy basedon the word PARMATMA we will not be able establish the Sikh philosophy as distinct and unique from Other philosophies of the world.
I have simply purt my observations from Gurbaani messages.I would not expect all agree to this .The obsevations presented are only for sharing the views .I may rectify my own understanding from sharing of the views if I would feel wrong.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga

Bhagat Singh Ji,

I have gone thru your suggested shabad at the link mentioned by your goodself.Here I find that you are considering the Meaning of Niankaar as Formless.I personally differ in this meaning.
I understand the meaning of the word NIRANKAAR as Something which is out of ONKAAR.
In Gurbaani we would find that the knowledge of the CREATOR is being stated before creation of ONKAAR.We should understand this.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Adi Nanaki

Guru Nanak's light imbued each Guru for the time they served as Guru. This is what I feel was passed on to distinguish the Guru who carried the present Guruship. Now we have 36 Gurus and saints guiding us through Siri Guru Granth Sahib, more when you consider all ten Gurus are embodied in its pages. Everyone in the world also has each of the ten Gurus prevailing through their ten bodies: Guru Nanak-soul, Guru Angad-negative/cautious mind, Guru Amar Das-positive mind, Guru Ram Das-neutral mind, Guru Arjan-physical body, Guru Hargobind-arcline/halo, Guru Har Rai-aura, Guru Har Krishan-pranic body, Guru Teg Bahadur=subtle body, Guru Gobind Singh-radiant body/electromagnetic field, and Siri Guru Granth-giving mastery over all ten bodies. The Gurus prevail through all people, both tyrants to awaken us and saints, to bring in the new millennium.


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## BhagatSingh

Haha yes. That is very novel I must say. icecreammunda


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## Ambarsaria

Adi Nanki ji thank you.

I have not studied the Shabad referred to by Ishna ji in great depth and context.  It appears to be in a contextual sense an "epilogue" form in the holy book.  It is written by a non-Guru about the Gurus and much in the sense of the writer having read is providing a gist of their thoughts which of course were included with review, I have to believe.

I do not believe Gurus themselves wrote anything about each other in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to portray as the Gateway to the creator, son or messenger of the same, avatar, etc.

All above written with great regard but trying to understand.

Any thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Spnadmin ji,
> You just want to know why it is necessar to use the word Avtaar This thread is related to getting the some appropriate meaning to this only.
> I have already clarified that I consider the word meaning as a reference for a personshowing a trait or typical characterto a marked degree {in this case it is the Creator}.Nowhere I have ever said that the Avtaar has been used in Vedic sense this is your assumption.
> Prakash.S.Bagga



Prakash S. Bagga ji

I disagree. Yes the meaning of avatar is necessary. So far. I don't see any serious attempt to define it by those who claim that the word 'avatar"  is more than a description of the Hindu Bhatts of the magnificence of the Gurusahiban,  in the context of their own spiritual experience. The purpose of the thread is to resolve some tuks that another forum member found puzzling. Rather than pursue that, there have been attempts to richly embroider the fabric of giaan by bringing in unfounded philosophical arguments. They are unfounded because they are not supported in the ShabadGuru. And these are arguments that take imho significant liberties with the actions and words of the Gurus themselves.


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## spnadmin

prakash.s.bagga said:


> It is quite understandable that the concept of JOTi  Wave or Tarang  as form of Creator may be disturbing for many of us because we have so far never understood Gurbaani messages in terms of SABAD TARANG.However this concept of SABAD TARANG or WAVE
> in Gurbaani can not be overlooked.
> We should try to grasp the concept it would enable us to get the intrisic meanings of Gurbaani and we can consolidate Sikh philosophy as quite distinct in the world..
> So long as we shall be understanding our Gurbaani thru the lense of western philosophy based on word GOD or as In India thru the lense of Hindu philosophy basedon the word PARMATMA we will not be able establish the Sikh philosophy as distinct and unique from Other philosophies of the world.
> I have simply purt my observations from Gurbaani messages.I would not expect all agree to this .The obsevations presented are only for sharing the views .I may rectify my own understanding from sharing of the views if I would feel wrong.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga



We have discussed this on other threads. In fact at one point I was driven to place the word "God" in brackets like this [God] in order to make it clear that I used the word advisedly, and not in the western sense. If a person is translating anything from an eastern text written in an eastern language, for the benefit of readers from another cultural and religious experience, the translator, I suppose, would try to build a bridge between one world and another. [God] is a word the west understands. What is the point of translating anything into terminology that someone else does not understand? It is always possible to use the word [God] and then define it in a different way.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

SpnAdmin Ji..
You have hit on a very valid point that most always miss..
GURU Nanak Ji and even the earlier Bhagat Sahibaans..were of NECESSITY FORCED to use the prevalent WORDS...{Har}..{Bhagwaan} {krishan..murari..nand laal..Ghaniyah..Raam..{Govind..Gobind..Narayan..etc etc etc..BUT the MEANINGS of these WORDS in GURBANI or the concept of GURMATT behind them is entirely OPPOSITE to the Hindu/accepted version. Guru Ji means to convey..a "CONCEPT" while the Hindus accepted these as AVTAARS in HUMAN FORM.....so the Krishan murari gobind ghaniyah of the HINDU is NOT the same as the one in GURBANI...

Same aplies to {GOD/YAHWEH?ALLAH RAHIM} what is WAHEGURU/AKAL PURAKH/GURU/SATGURU in Gurmatt is NOT the exact same thing that westerners understand..


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## prakash.s.bagga

I dont think that even we Sikhs have clearly understood the meanings of the words
Wahi GurU /AkalPurakh/GuRU or Sati GuRu otherwise we would given better explanation of the other different words mentioned in Gurbaani.
We are also taking the support of the words like GODandor LORD to interprate Gurbaani.
This should given a thought.

Prakash.S.bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga

I also feel that it would be incorrect  to think that GuRU Nanak or others were forced 
to use prevalent words as the source of Gurbaani is not any person.The whole Baani is of GuR and the person involved is only conveying what is being listened by him.
I am greatly surprised at this note of great callibre like  Giyani Jarnail Singh Ji.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Bagga ji..
my use of the word "forced" means LIMITATIONS...not that any person or soemthing held a knife at Guru jis throat and commanded Him.."write this" Guur Arjun Ji chose to give His life rather than submit the Pothi sahib to any changes etc...so it is clear that the "force" is not what you take it as..
What I meant is that these "words" etc already existed..Guur Ji gave them NEW GURMATT ORINTED direction/meanings..which we MUST understand rather than go back to wearing "Bhagwa glasses" so that everything appears ORANGE !!

Where it was possible..Guru Ji refused to use the prevalent matter..like in SANSKRIT. sanskrit was the defacto accepted language of Dharma/religious texts..GURU Nanak ji REJECTED that and chose to write Gurbani in the New Script GURMUKHI/PUNJABI. But in the field of VOCABULARY..Guru ji accepted the popular words...it was His choice again.

I hope this clarifies Jios.. btw I am the same calibre as all of you jios..no better no worse..we are all SIKHS..learners. Please !!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Here we are arguing about Avtaars..and our fellow SIKHS may soon be comparing Guru Arjun ji to daler Mehndi...Here is a video of Bhai jasbir Singh Paonta sahib on stage..SGGS is parkash..and see whats happening...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SlbeWW55IxY


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## prakash.s.bagga

GIYAN JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
I thank you for consideration given to my messages.I have seen what is happening in the U Tube.Here What you say is right.This is height of ignorance among us.Only WAHi GuRU can help .Nothing more can be commented .
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Kanwaljit.Singh

On one hand people don't have time for praying and going to Gurudwara. On other hand, those who 'take out' time, end up in such events


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## Adi Nanaki

prakash.s.bagga said:


> I dont think that even we Sikhs have clearly understood the meanings of the words
> Wahi GurU /AkalPurakh/GuRU or Sati GuRu otherwise we would given better explanation of the other different words mentioned in Gurbaani.
> We are also taking the support of the words like GODandor LORD to interprate Gurbaani.
> This should given a thought.
> 
> Prakash.S.bagga


Rather than translate the Guru's words for God, which are many, often with subtle differences, translators should best trust Gurus' choice and use Guru's exact word rather than attempting to translate, which is always a distortion. The words in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are written in Naadh--_they are what they sound like. _One does not need to intellectually understand. As Guru Nanak so aptly explained in the Suneeays of Japji, by meditatively listening to the very sound, their divine meaning becomes perfectly clear.


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## prakash.s.bagga

ADI NANKI Ji,
I like your post which conveys a lot about the use of words from within SGGS.
You should also consider apoint that if there is already an appropriate word in Gurbaani for the Creator why we should not consider that word rather than make use of a word which isnot a content of Gurbaani.
You can verify yourself that in Gurbaani the Creator is being refered as GuR/Prabhu and further about 300 words {Out of many thousands}  are found refering to the Creator.
This is for your information and consideration accordinly.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Adi Nanaki

Ambarsaria said:


> Adi Nanaki ji there is no meditative intermediary or altered state needed to understand Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.  You need to read, understand the words and visualize that Guru ji is in front of you.
> 
> Sorry to differ.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


It is okay, dear one. I need not visualize Gurus before me. I breathe them and merge with them, as they want us to. It is how one Sikh was empowered to face 1000 of the enemy, which is what I must do when 1000 people contest my book on the deeper, yogic meaning of SGGS. 

There are many ways to become one with the Gurus. In recitation of the Banis and singing Gurbani Kirtan, we repeat their words exactly as they spoke them in God consciousness. In so doing we recreate that vibration within ourselves.  SGGS and Dasam Granth in phonetic script are the greatest gifts the Gurus gave us for this very reason.


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## NinduP

Whether it says Guru Arjan Dev Ji was an incarnation of waheguru, how does it help in your search?

You could say that every prophet or sage is an incarnation of waheguru.

Every person, place, thing is an incarnation of waheguru in physically manifest form.

Taking the original gurmukhi, which is mix of sanskrit and what have you, then converting it to english makes it take on an entirely different meaning. Even explanations an vichaars, they serve very little use when subjectivity is applied.

But my 2 cents are as follows:
When it says Guru Arjan is attached to the lords feet (or something similar), I would imagine that he is in samadhi and the distinction of his body-mind-soul has disappeared and all he sees is that he is waheguru and that is all there is underneath material reality.

Meditate, meditate, meditate.

2 cents..


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## sachbol

BhagatSingh said:


> Ishna ji
> Yes the Gurmukhi suggests that it is saying that Guru Arjan Dev ji is the incarnation of God/God himself. Mathura uses the word Avtar for Guru Arjan. Avtars are incarnations.
> 
> Now one person might reject this literal translation and advise to take it metaphorically like some sort of poetic praise. The other will take it word for word. (we will hear from more people soon) All perspectives point to towards the truth.
> 
> My suggestion would be to go beyond the words and try to feel what the word "incarnation" and the whole shabad is referring to. Meditate on the shabad.
> 
> Now, what other words can you use for _that_? (avoid thinking about that, post the words that immediately come through from meditation, and if no words arise that is fine too)



As per our Mool Mantar Wahiguru is Ajuni ie he never takes birth nor does he die.
Therefore it is  wrong to say that any Guru was an Avtar of God.


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## Ishna

Sachbol ji

And that is exactly why I struggled with understanding the shabad as it says the opposite of what I understood to be true.  The Gurbani says plainly that Guru Arjun was an Avtar of God.  

When I read it on the screen at Gurdwara Sahib I was like "um, is this kirten actually from SGGS??".  After responses through this thread, and some pondering, the case was made clear, as you will see from the posts earlier in the thread.

Gurbani is a curious thing, it has to use words (which are inadequate) to try to describe and explain something absolutely phenomenal.  It's like trying to explain a taste to someone else, using only the other things you've tasted before as a reference point.  None of them are going to accurately describe the taste (of the message within Gurbani), and the listener might mistake a regular foodstuff to be the taste described by the Gurmukh.  "Well if he said it tastes like chicken chips, it must be chicken chips."

One has to taste the unique, sublime, sweet taste of Gurbani oneself before it makes any sense.


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## Ambarsaria

sachbol said:


> As per our Mool Mantar Wahiguru is Ajuni ie he never takes birth nor does he die.
> Therefore it is  wrong to say that any Guru was an Avtar of God.


Hence for Sikhism no subjugates of God in the name of Avatars or Directors of Avatars, period.  Be they,


Any of our Gurus
Ram
Krishna
Vishnu
Brahma
Parvati
Ganesh
Hanuman
Buddha
Jesus
and the list is un-ending
Any such names used in Gurbani are symbology to help people understand concepts and relationships with the creator.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

YOU GOT IT ISHNA JI....Finally.cheerleadercheerleadercheerleadercheerleadercheerleader


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## sachbol

Ambarsaria said:


> Hence for Sikhism no subjugates of God in the name of Avatars or Directors of Avatars, period.  Be they,
> 
> 
> Any of our Gurus
> Ram
> Krishna
> Vishnu
> Brahma
> Parvati
> Ganesh
> Hanuman
> Buddha
> Jesus
> and the list is un-ending
> Any such names used in Gurbani are symbology to help people understand concepts and relationships with the creator.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



Ambarsariaji thanx. it is the duty of every learned Sikh to share his knowledge with people like me who just know ABC of Gurbani and Sikh itihas. I am grateful to SPN, its moderators and Gyani saheban who show us the way. Like a common man I have thosands of doubts about my own religions. Personalities like you are there to clear our doubts. 
Waheguru mahar karey. japposatnamwaheguru:


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## sachbol

prakash.s.bagga said:


> There is very important point to understand in the message given by Bhagat Singh ji.
> and that point is "Unborn and Born"
> Definitely there is something that takes birth and there is other thing that does not take birth and this thing is Ajoonee.
> These two are different things  not like that the same thing is unborned and Borned as well.
> e should try to grasp this point from the understanding of Gurbaani and the understanding of this is again related to the concept of GuRU and GuR.
> 
> Prakash.s.bagga



No we can not prove hat our Moolmantar is False. "AJOONI" is the truth. He does not take birth Nor does He die !


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## prakash.s.bagga

SACHBOL Ji,
The cocept of incarnation in Gurbani is not the one which is related to Birth.(This concept of incarnation by way of birth is   an accepted in Hindu or other philosophies)  . The concept of incarnation in Gurbani is related to complete transformation of the thought process at any stage of life thru Gurjoti.This is important to understand.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## sachbol

Lot of confusion is created. Our Pracharaks make our Gurus Avtars of God.japposatnamwaheguru:


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## prakash.s.bagga

SACHBOL Ji,
You can see an old Hindi Movie "AVTAR" starring Rajesh Khanna/Shabana Azami to get the meaning of AVTAR..I think this may of great help to understand the Concept of AVTAR.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## sachbol

Each Guru is Avtar but not Avtar of God. He is Avtar of Sikh Gurujapposatnamwaheguru:


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## prakash.s.bagga

SACHBOL Ji,
You are nearly correct.To be more correct ,Each Guroo is AVTAR of SABADu GuRoo.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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