# Where Do We Draw The Line?



## justosh (Aug 1, 2012)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sadh Sangat ji

Simple question, which has may complicated answers...

(please ONLY use Gurbani to back up your points)

Where is the line between Guru and God..

For example i was listing to some katha and they were talking about "ja tu mere val hai" shabad.... and then they explained that if Guru Gobind Singh is with me then what should i fear...

But according to my understanding..... Guru Arjan Ji was singing this to and about God..

All feedback welcome


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## Harry Haller (Aug 1, 2012)

Justoshji

my own opinion only

Guru is teacher, from Guru we learn. 

God is the ultimate energy, the Creative force that Created. 

The SGGS is the word of God.

Hukam is implementing the word of God. 

Guru Gobind Singhji also requested that none of the Gurus be worshipped, or remembered, he was wise enough to realise that fascination and obsession with the Gurus would dilute the time spent on the real journey, the journey to Creator, to God. I happen to think he was absolutely correct, as Sikhs, we spend more time remembering the Gurus, when we should be spending that time remembering, thinking about God, reading the word of God, implementing the word of God. 

When reading the SGGS, it can be confusing which Guru we are talking about, Guru the Creator, Guru the teacher, Guru the word, for this reason you will find each Guru spelt differently to differentiate between the three. 


Page 34, Line 10
ਆਪੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰੈ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਵੀਚਾਰ ॥
आपु छोडि जीवत मरै गुर कै सबदि वीचार ॥
Āp cẖẖod jīvaṯ marai gur kai sabaḏ vīcẖār.
So abandon your selfishness, and remain dead while yet alive. Contemplate the Word of the Guru's Shabad.
Guru Amar Das   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 34, Line 11
ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨ ਮੰਨਿਓ ਸਬਦਿ ਨ ਲਗੋ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
सतगुरु पुरखु न मंनिओ सबदि न लगो पिआरु ॥
Saṯgur purakẖ na mani▫o sabaḏ na lago pi▫ār.
Those who do not have faith in the Primal Being, the True Guru, and who do not enshrine love for the Shabad -
Guru Amar Das   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

The following quote is quite good, as it uses the word Guru many times, but you can see the context

ਪੰਨਾ 17, ਸਤਰ 13
ਗੁਰੁ ਪਉੜੀ ਬੇੜੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ ਤੁਲਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਉ ॥
गुरु पउड़ी बेड़ी गुरू गुरु तुलहा हरि नाउ ॥
Gur pa▫oṛī beṛī gurū gur ṯulhā har nā▫o.
The Guru is the Ladder, the Guru is the Boat, and the Guru is the Raft to take me to the Lord's Name.


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## Embers (Aug 1, 2012)

Hello Justoshji
This is a useful question for me too. My limited understanding is that the ultimate spritual perspective is that all is God and God is the true guru. True because God is forever true and never misleads, here is the Sri Granth Ji on those points, I continue below:

Page 442, Line 18
ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਗਵਿੰਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਭਾਈ ॥੪॥੧॥੮॥
गुर गोविंदु गोविंदु गुरू है नानक भेदु न भाई ॥४॥१॥८॥
Gur govinḏ govinḏ gurū hai Nānak bẖeḏ na bẖā▫ī. ||4||1||8||
*The Guru is God, and God is the Guru, O Nanak; there is no difference between the two*, O Siblings of Destiny. ||4||1||8||
Guru Ram Das 

Page 10, Line 2
ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਜਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਤਪੁਰਖਾ ਬਿਨਉ ਕਰਉ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ ॥
हरि के जन सतिगुर सतपुरखा बिनउ करउ गुर पासि ॥
Har ke jan saṯgur saṯpurkẖā bina▫o kara▫o gur pās.
O humble servant of the Lord, *O True Guru*, O True Primal Being: I offer my humble prayer to You, O Guru.
Guru Ram Das

Page 347, Line 13
ਸੋਈ ਸੋਈ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਚੀ ਨਾਈ ॥
सोई सोई सदा सचु साहिबु साचा साची नाई ॥
So▫ī so▫ī saḏā sacẖ sāhib sācẖā sācẖī nā▫ī.
That Lord and Master - He is True, *forever True*; He is True, and True is His Name.
Guru Nanak Dev 

Page 1043, Line 15
ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਭੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਛਾਨਿਆ ॥
गुर सबदी सभु ब्रहमु पछानिआ ॥
Gur sabḏī sabẖ barahm pacẖẖāni▫ā.
Through the Guru's Shabad, *I have realized that all is God.*
Guru Nanak Dev

Page 294, Line 6
ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਕਾ ਪੇਖਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥
संत जना का पेखनु सभु ब्रहम ॥
Sanṯ janā kā pekẖan sabẖ barahm.
*In the eye of the Saint, everything is God.*
Guru Arjan Dev

It is precisely because in the eye of the saint that all is God, that the saint merges with God and in the ultimate sense (highest spiritual sense) the Guru is God.

Page 214, Line 3
ਸਹਜ ਕੇਲ ਅਨਦ ਖੇਲ ਰਹੇ ਫੇਰ ਭਏ ਮੇਲ ॥
सहज केल अनद खेल रहे फेर भए मेल ॥
Sahj kel anaḏ kẖel rahe fer bẖa▫e mel.
I enjoy intuitive peace, and I play in bliss; the cycle of reincarnation is ended for me, and *I am merged with the Lord.*
Guru Arjan Dev

Page 27, Line 4
ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋ ਮਿਲਿ ਰਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨਉ ਆਪੇ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥
सबदि मिलै सो मिलि रहै जिस नउ आपे लए मिलाइ ॥
Sabaḏ milai so mil rahai jis na▫o āpe la▫e milā▫e.
*One whom the Lord merges into Himself* is merged in the Shabad, and remains so merged.
Guru Amar Das

Likewise the Shabad is Guru and the Shabad is God. The 10 Gurus were 'representative' of Shabad. This continues in the Sri Guru Granth Ji, hence why I bow to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

So the answer is that the 'line' is down to spiritual perception. The line become less through remembering His Name until the point where one becomes merged in the Lord's bliss.


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## justosh (Aug 1, 2012)

right so if Guru Granth Sahib is pointing to God, with shabads such as:
kirpa karo deen ke date (http://www.sikhnet.com/gurbani/audio/kirpa-karo-deen-ke-date)

why are people still thinking that its Guru we need... and missing out the entity that is God- the creator..... which is mentioned so many times

i mean the first shabad Guru Nanak Ji Said was the Mool Mantra, which starts with Ek Ongkar


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## Embers (Aug 1, 2012)

justosh said:


> right so if Guru Granth Sahib is pointing to God, with shabads such as:
> kirpa karo deen ke date (http://www.sikhnet.com/gurbani/audio/kirpa-karo-deen-ke-date)
> 
> why are people still thinking that its Guru we need... and missing out the entity that is God- the creator..... which is mentioned so many times
> ...



Hi Justoshji
I am not familiar with the Shabad you quote first (do you have an English translation to hand?).

Do you mean "Guru" in this question as Nanakji etc? If so then each person may have their own reasons. For example, in some Indian traditions it seems to be acceptable to look to the Guru, such as Nanakji, as the embodiment or word of God, living or dead. This is traditional and I feel it has since changed.

Secondly the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was written whilst the one of the Gurus were living and hence it speaks of them in the present. This, for some, may bring them to life in the mind of the Sikhi and hence they may speak of them as in the present. 

Lastly, there is maya, which blinds us to the ever present Lord,  in my opinion:

Page 30, Line 11
ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹਿ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਜਗਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਿ ॥
माइआ मोहि विसारिआ जगत पिता प्रतिपालि ॥
Mā▫i▫ā mohi visāri▫ā jagaṯ piṯā parṯipāl.
In attachment to Maya, they have forgotten the Father, the Cherisher of the World.
Guru Amar Das
Really, as Harryji points out, we must only worship God.


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## justosh (Aug 1, 2012)

yeah just click on the link and a translation is on the left in a box.... i see, yeah i was talking about guru as Nanakji..... but i know their names appear.... but then they all ways point to the one being (sat Gur).... so i still do not understand why some people still say have faith in guru ji.... when shouldnt it be have faith in guru ji words about god.... or have faith in god?


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## Embers (Aug 1, 2012)

justosh said:


> yeah just click on the link and a translation is on the left in a box.... i see, yeah i was talking about guru as Nanakji..... but i know their names appear.... but then they all ways point to the one being (sat Gur).... so i still do not understand why some people still say have faith in guru ji.... when shouldnt it be have faith in guru ji words about god.... or have faith in god?



Thanks, I missed the translations earlier 

It is my conviction that we should only look to God. 
I feel compassion for those who look to another human body. It isn't my place to convince them, but they are blinded by words or by thoughts in my opinion. If you know a person, you could ask them if they can explain their thoughts. The important thing is that you, and I, are clear on our view, so to speak.

Page 380, Line 7
ਭ੍ਰਮ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਸਗਲ ਜਗਤ ਧੰਧ ਅੰਧ ॥
भ्रम महि सोई सगल जगत धंध अंध ॥
Bẖaram mėh so▫ī sagal jagaṯ ḏẖanḏẖ anḏẖ.
The whole world is asleep in doubt; it is blinded by worldly entanglements.
Guru Arjan Dev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
Page 402, Line 18

ਜਹ ਜਾਨੋ ਸੋ ਚੀਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਭਏ ਆਂਧੇ ॥੧॥
जह जानो सो चीति न आवै अह्मबुधि भए आंधे ॥१॥
Jah jāno so cẖīṯ na āvai ahaŉ▫buḏẖ bẖa▫e āŉḏẖe. ||1||
Wherever they go, they do not think of the Lord; they are blinded by intellectual egotism. ||1||
Guru Arjan Dev


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## justosh (Aug 1, 2012)

yeah i will have to... thanks for the answers


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Aug 1, 2012)

If we try to connect different Shabads of Gurbani using concept of ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ, then we get:

ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਤਾ ਸੋਇ ॥
Waaho! Waaho! Blessed and Great is the True Guru, the Primal Being, who has realized the True Lord.
ਜਿਤੁ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਤਿਖ ਉਤਰੈ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
Meeting Him, thirst is quenched, and the body and mind are cooled and soothed.
ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਸਮਤੁ ਸਭ ਕੋਇ ॥
Waaho! Waaho! Blessed and Great is the True Guru, the True Primal Being, who looks upon all alike.
ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਤੁਲਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
Waaho! Waaho! Blessed and Great is the True Guru, who has no hatred; slander and praise are all the same to Him.
ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
Waaho! Waaho! Blessed and Great is the All-knowing True Guru, who has realized God within.
ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰੁ ॥
Waaho! Waaho! Blessed and Great is the Formless True Guru, who has no end or limitation.
ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਜਿ ਸਚੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ ਸੋਇ ॥
Waaho! Waaho! Blessed and Great is the True Guru, who implants the Truth within.
ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥
O Nanak, Blessed and Great is the True Guru, through whom the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is received.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Aug 1, 2012)

ਗੁਰੁ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਨਸਾ ਪੂਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
The Guru is the Sacred Shrine of Pilgrimage, the Guru is the Wish-fulfilling Elysian Tree.
ਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇਇ ਉਧਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥
The Guru is the Fulfiller of the desires of the mind. The Guru is the Giver of the Name of the Lord, by which all the world is saved.
ਗੁਰੁ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਊਚਾ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
The Guru is All-powerful, the Guru is Formless; the Guru is Lofty, Inaccessible and Infinite.
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਅਗਮ ਹੈ ਕਿਆ ਕਥੇ ਕਥਨਹਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
The Praise of the Guru is so sublime-what can any speaker say?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 1, 2012)

By Now all would have understood that WHAT Gurbani SGGS says/Directs us to DO is entirley DIFFERENT form what Sikhs esp the followers of deras, dehdharees, sants etc etc DO !! What these "SIKHS" DO is NOT what SGGS says we must DO..*GURMATT*. Gurmatt vs MANMATT..*most sikhs do Manmatt *!! KATHA can and maybe mostly *MANMATT* !! disregard whatever that FAILS by SGGS Touchstone/litmus Test.... *we must all strive towards as MUCH GURMATT as possible...that is REAL SIKHI.*animatedkhanda1


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