# How To Handle Fallen Kes?



## sandeep17oct (Dec 14, 2013)

I heard about the amount of respect given to kes by Guru Sahib Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji when after a battle when he went about the battlefield he removed his footwear so that the kes of the fallen soldiers not come under his footwear. This makes me feel that kes which is caught up in the drain after a bath or thrown in the dustbin is utter disrespect of the kes. Is there any better way to deal with hair after it is separated from the body?


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## aristotle (Dec 14, 2013)

I don't think throwing fallen kes in the dustbin is disrespect. I have seen people collecting them in a polybag and throwing them in a river or stream every one month or so, and I respect their opinion. But IMO we are taking the meaning of respect too far, they are dead and fallen appendages and it should be okay to dispose them off as one pleases. Forgive me if I'm the only one who thinks so.

As for the Sakhi of Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj you mentioned, you must be knowing how easy is it for our people to fabricate some Sakhi for forwarding one's ideas to the unsuspecting Sangat. The whole Sikh history is amounting to a large collection of hagiographies and fabricated Sakhis. But I don't think I have read this in any history book so far.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 14, 2013)

As far as "word of mouth" stories go..Guru Gobind Singh ji was Bare footed in Macchiwarra Jungle...which implies that Guru ji NEVER wore His Shoes back even after He had left Chamkaur Sahib's battle fields far far behind ?? WHY ??

Anecdote: back in those days..the average "Indian" was so dirt poor..that each person had perhaps one pair of shoes to last a life time...so it was the custom to remove ones shoes, pack them under ones arm pits..and wear them back only when approaching ones destination !! This was to prevent undue wear and tear...

Me suspects..the original "word of mouth" gossipper had unworthy thoughts...and we add to them by believing such tales... With naked swords and spears and what not lying around the battlefield...it would be foolish to remove ones shoes..

Fallen KESH are discarded items..treat them with respect or disrespect..makes no difference...BUT on a PRACTICAL ASPECT....be prepared to pay HEFTY BILLS to the SEWAGE/PLUMBERS....to extract the Hair-***** when your system gets CLOGGED due to careless disposal of fallen hair in bathroom/toilet/drains etc.  My neighbor recently had to endure this huge pain..and now is on his toes to make sure each member of his family PICKS up each HAIR in the bathroom floor/sink/toilet etc..and DISPOSE them Elsewhere !!! OUCH....."disrespecting"  fallen Kesh hurt his POCKET !!..and the PLUMBER was laughing all the way to the Bank...and sad that Me also being a Sikh with lots of long hairs on my 8 humans and 8 dogs...didnt have clogged sewage and so he couldnt make money out of me !!

COMMON SENSE folks...

2. Anecdote no. 2...in Malaysia we Sikhs cremate at same crematoriums as Hindus, Buddhists etc...Well at this one creamtorium..a Tamil Hindu family were "shocked" to find an "iron ring" and a small knife in the ashes of their cremated daddy and made a Police report that someone ahd tried to put a curse/blackmagic with their daddy's ashes....and another Sikh Family were also "shocked" to find that the Karra and Kirpan were "missing" from the ashes of their daddy..and  they too rushed to make a Police Report...and suffered anguish..???? It so happened that the crematorium guy had MIXED up the respective ASHES....it used to be that Hospitals used to MIX up/SWITCH NEW BORN....now crematoriums also mix up/switch ASHES !!! Wonders of the 21st century...
Such "anguish" happens when we place too much "respect" on discarded things..because GURBANI..SGGS..already advised us against such...ek dajjeh..ek dabbiah..ek kutteh khayeh...some are burnt..some buried..some eaten by animals..it doesnt matter..because what was IMPORTANT is no longer there !!:happysingh::happysingh::happysingh::happysingh::happysingh:


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## aristotle (Dec 14, 2013)

Sandeep Ji,

Perhaps you would consider me a 'half-Sikh' too, but I don't take offence at that. Sikh Rehat Maryada and Gurbani is the lone guiding light for me. All the things presented as 'fact' by some Sakhis, preachers or anecdotes may not be in consonance with Gurmat, we should keep an open mind, these are not the Gospel truth. A holier-than-thou attitude leaves no room for intelligent thinking and spiritual independence the Sikhi philosophy had vouchsaved for us.

Other than that, if you are to call all those who don't agree with your views as 'half-Sikhs', I wonder why you posted on a forum, we are here to discuss and learn, not browbeat others and call them names.


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## sandeep17oct (Dec 14, 2013)

Aristotle ji, 

My point in writing half sikhs was to establish the fact that the threats to Sikhism is within Sikhism and not from Hindus as I have so often heard. I never meant to include you as one of them. Please pardon me in case I gave you that image. See the point is maybe we do not understand certain things, but that does not necessarily make that wrong. It is wrong to say stuff that we do not have complete knowledge about. 
Like I have heard about Dasam Granth that it is part of propaganda to eliminate sikh religion because it talks about Ram Avatar, Krishan Avatar and so on. I mean how. We very easily say it is not the work of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sahib. But are we 100% sure before we plant these seeds into the mind of those who hold it to be Guruji's writing. Don't plant these seeds of doubt thats all I say. If you have something good that can assist in faith then always share but doubts please try to keep to yourself, don't go on pronouncing Dasam Granth is not true and so on cause you were not present there when it was being written. So how can you be 100% sure.

Going back through the thread I can see how this particular comment tipped the scales away from the original topic. Quite a lot of threaded discussion has been wasted as I read forward. The same holds for the issue of "doubts" which comes up at this point and is followed through. Keep in mind that any one person can not define reality or truth for everyone else on a thread. If you cannot handle disagreement then don't visit internet forums. Whatever you do, don't try to turn people who like questions as much as they like answers into panthic skunks. Discuss issues not personalitiesl Thank you/spnadmin


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## sandeep17oct (Dec 14, 2013)

aristotle said:


> Other than that, if you are to call all those who don't agree with your views as 'half-Sikhs', I wonder why you posted on a forum, we are here to discuss and learn, not browbeat others and call them names.



English is the official language of the forum. Gurmukhi script is the official form of Punjabi writing here. Please adhere to Terms of Service. spnadmin


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## Admin (Dec 14, 2013)

Sandeep ji, please write in plain understandable English otherwise your posts are candidate for deletion without notice. Thank you so much for your understanding!


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## sandeep17oct (Dec 14, 2013)

Admin Singh said:


> Sandeep ji, please write in plain understandable English otherwise your posts are candidate for deletion without notice. Thank you so much for your understanding!



ok sirji....


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## Ishna (Dec 14, 2013)

*So is it Gyani Ji you are accusing of being half-Sikh?*

*How is any of what you've said in the recent posts related to the treatment of Kesh, which was the question in your opening post?*

*Looks to me like you weren't that interested in your OP question at all...*




			
				Sandeep said:
			
		

> No great scientist of which I know with the exception of Isaac Newton believed in God or religion.


 



			
				Sandeep said:
			
		

> It is wrong to say stuff that we do not have complete knowledge about.


 
I need not say a word.


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## Ishna (Dec 15, 2013)

Excellent.  And now we can return to topic.


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## sandeep17oct (Dec 15, 2013)

Sorry....Sister


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## aristotle (Dec 15, 2013)

> If you have something good that can assist in faith then always share but doubts please try to keep to yourself, don't go on pronouncing Dasam Granth is not true and so on cause you were not present there when it was being written. So how can you be 100% sure.



Neither were the people who insist on placing Dasam Granth and other such granths parallel with Guru Granth Sahib present when the Granth was being written. 

All I know is Guru Granth Sahib is our only living Guru, unparalleled by any other Granth, and this fact was established by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib himself. Whether or not all the banis included in the Dasam were penned by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib is a matter of research. Moreover, this has nothing to do with the OP question. You have included all sorts of advices, controversies and debates in a discussion which would have otherwise been a streamlined one.


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## sandeep17oct (Dec 15, 2013)

Aristotle ji, 

See you are taking one extreme here when you say that people are trying to put Dasam Granth at par with Guru Granth Sahib. I don't think any advocate of legitimacy of Dasam Granth would argue that it is above Shri Guru Granth Sahib.


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## aristotle (Dec 15, 2013)

sandeep17oct said:


> Aristotle ji,
> 
> See you are taking one extreme here when you say that people are trying to put Dasam Granth at par with Guru Granth Sahib. I don't think any advocate of legitimacy of Dasam Granth would argue that it is above Shri Guru Granth Sahib.



I really don't want to argue further. There are numerous threads on Dasam Granth already on this forum.


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## Ishna (Dec 15, 2013)

This thead is about kesh.

Dasam Granth should be discussed here:  http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/dasam-granth/ 

Further discussion about Dasam Granth, or any other radical tangents, will be removed from this thread.

Thanks for your cooperation.


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## sandeep17oct (Dec 15, 2013)

fine...


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## Harry Haller (Dec 15, 2013)

> Sikhism by its very nature demands form the people faith. You need to have faith in each and every word of the Guru. Dont trust the sceptical. Doubts are already there don't amplify them by listening to such people.
> If you want to be a completely rational individual, give up all this God God. There is no God believe Albert Einstein there in none. It is only needed when we fear something and we dont want it to happen and cant avoid so we pray and if we want something but cant get it we again pray. Choose one path, walk that path. Mediation as the Buddhists practice is also a sure way to lead you to enlightenment, but if you have decided that you will follow the Guru then you must do so no matter what the cost.
> 
> The main point here is REASON IS EVERYTHING AND ALSO APPLICABLE TO RELIGIONS BUT WE DO NOT HAVE COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING THEREFORE WE MIGHT NOT REASON CORRECTLY.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


 
Sandeepji, 

firstly, try not to use red, it is for admin purposes only, Thanks harry ji, and I will go through and make the changes. spnadmin

secondly, I disagree with you completely, Sikhism is nothing to do with faith, people who have faith sit around doing rituals and waiting for something to happen, Sikhs make things happen by filling themselves with grace and being in consonance with Creation, by following the true path, they have a confident and firm composure, they believe, truly believe, they do not have to force themselves to believe and have faith that what they are doing is right, because they are devoid of pointless actions and thoughts. 

As for 'its only needed when we  fear something' , Sikhs do not fear anything, Hukam is blessed and holy, Sikhs accept Hukam, so there is no need to pray for anything really.


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## sandeep17oct (Dec 15, 2013)

harry haller said:


> Sandeepji,
> 
> Sikhism is nothing to do with faith, people who have faith sit around doing rituals and waiting for something to happen.



Faith in God bhai. Or call it belief in God.


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## sandeep17oct (Dec 15, 2013)

harry haller said:


> Sandeepji,
> 
> so there is no need to pray for anything really.



Chaupai sahib is a prayer. Not for good things but for strength to walk on the path as prescribed by the Guru.


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## spnadmin (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks to harry ji and ishna ji on the matter of Dasam Granth discussions.

 Orderly discussion is important. Further discussion of Dasam Granth in this thread may and should be deleted. 

On the matter of "facts:" Inaccuracies and distortions should be corrected. As far as I can tell sandeep ji you have been at the root of most of the inaccuracies here, and the one who has made most of the accusations that others are guilty of distortions.

Once I finish reading the thread carefully other issues related to TOS will be raised. I have about 4 more comments to review. Until then, if the term "half Sikhs" comes up one more time, deletions will occur.

I missed most of this over the night here on the US side and will be straightening things out during the day. Please take heed.


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## spnadmin (Dec 15, 2013)

Let's return to the topic of "kes" and how to dispose of fallen kes. 

With regard to the disposal of a dead body, the Sikh Rehat Maryada says this, in Section 4, Chapter 11, Article 19

      c. However young the deceased may be, the body should be cremated. However, where arrangements for cremation cannot be made, there should be no qualm about the body being immersed in flowing water or disposed of in any other manner. 

Rules about the disposal of dead bodies are liberal. So, why not also for hair? Therefore, I would surmise that there should be "no qualm" about the disposal of kes be it cremation, in bodies of flowing water or " in any other manner."


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## Harkiran Kaur (Dec 15, 2013)

Hair falls out at the rate of about 100 hairs or more per day on average.  It is impossible to account for every single hair as they fall out.  Even if you wear keski / dastaar, when you take it off, when you wash, when you comb, you will inevitably lose some.  That cycle of hair loss is perfectly normal and part of nature.  We can honour kesh by keeping it, and isn't part of that honour also acknowledging that it's part of our biology that it will fall out as new hair comes to grow in and replace it?  

Our whole body is in a constant state of renewal... cells from everything from our skin, to organs etc are always shedding and renewing.  Hair is no different. 

I think when it's fallen off on its own, its ok to dispose of how one sees fit as it's no longer part of the body anymore.  

It is for that reason that I don't believe that any sort of ritual needs to be done when it's no longer part of my body.  And anyway, ritual in general is discouraged is it not?


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Dec 15, 2013)

I do not know if this will be publishable here on SPN, but I hope it is because, for some reason, it reminds me of this thread.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=582803225122302&notif_t=notify_me

I am, however, a bit slow, so I'll answer about kesh.  I have always saved my kesh removed from my kangha in a small wooden box and disposed of them as I would any dead part of my body, by burning them.  Now, however, I live in a situation where this is not possible.  I have been simply tossing them into the recycle bin.  I'm not sure if they're really recyclable or not, but it's only a small amount.  My kesh in the drain or on my clothes or the floor or anywhere else, I leave to themselves.

If I have a point to make here - and I'm not certain I do - it is that what I do with dead kesh is immaterial.  While they are alive and a part of my body, I hold them sacred and love and care for them.  When they are dead, they are just dead.:grinningsingh:


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## spnadmin (Dec 15, 2013)

I was pondering the very point Akasha made in an earlier post before actually reading it here. We do lose hair all day long, sometimes we aren't even aware that a strand has fallen here or there. Combing through the drain, or carefully gathering each strand from a comb or brush, simply won't account for all of it. All this in spite of the awareness that accounting for dead body parts is of no consequence. That is more of a job for forensic investigators looking for trace evidence. Thanks Akasha ji. You put that into perspective very nicely.


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## sandeep17oct (Dec 15, 2013)

Akasha ji,

The way you speak it seems to me that even wearing a turban and keeping kes is a ritual.


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## sandeep17oct (Dec 15, 2013)

Spnadmin ji, Gyani ji

Can I go off on a tangent on rituals, please, please, please.......:winkingmunda::winkingmunda::winkingmunda::winkingmunda::winkingmunda::winkingmunda:


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## spnadmin (Dec 15, 2013)

sandeeo ji

If you are not going to stay on topic, then the answer is NO. And I do not see anything in what Akasha said that pertains to rituals. So don't go there either. Thanks.


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## sandeep17oct (Dec 15, 2013)




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