# Pointing One's Feet To The Sggs At The Gurdwara



## Simranjit (Aug 22, 2018)

Hi!

I just read about the occasion when Guru Nanak was asked to move himself so as his feet would not point to the Kaaba (_At Mecca, Nanak lay down for a night’s rest with his feet pointing to the Kaaba, the holy sanctum. When a qazi admonished him for pointing his feel toward the house of God, Nanak replied that he was too tired to move and suggested that the qazi move his legs and point them in a direction where God did not exist. The qazi was stumped._) and it made me think of the custom of not pointing one's feet to the SGGS at the Gurudwara which I was taught in my very first visit to the Gurdwara in Barcelona (as, by chance, I sat down with my feet pointing to the SGGS). I hope I don't sound disrespectful:  I  thought, and still think, that neither the SGGS nor Waheguru mind my feet pointing to the SGGS at all. However, since then, I always avoid my feet pointing at the SGGS. It couldn't be easier to avoid and it makes my presence more comfortable to others. Also, as I'm very new in Sikhi, I don't think I'm entitled to discuss this rule. Even if I felt like doing so, which I don't.

One the the aspects of Sikhi that attracted me from the beginning is its apparent lack of void rules and rituals. Although at the same time I see some rituals as symbols that, although arbitrary, once they are given their arbitrary meaning and we have integrated it, can help us to enter into specific states of mind and awareness. I think that they work as they serve as reminders to our mind, sould and heart, if it makes sense. This is why I always meditate and read Gurbani with my head covered even if I am alone at home and why I always wear a kara (while I have recently cut my hair very short). I think that ideally individuals should be free to choose what rituals fit them or not, and for me it would be wonderful if I could sit down with my feet pointing to where it is more comfortable for me any given moment (as long as I don't put my toes in someone's eye  !!) without my position making anyone feel uncomfortble. (The same goes for covering my head all the time at the Gurdwara (ooops!) which I anyway would do as, as I said, it makes it easier for me to remind myself to be in a state of peace and awareness).

I'd love it if someone wanted to share their point of view about all this.

Thanks,


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## Balpreet Singh (Aug 22, 2018)

Simranjit said:


> Hi!
> 
> I just read about the occasion when Guru Nanak was asked to move himself so as his feet would not point to the Kaaba (_At Mecca, Nanak lay down for a night’s rest with his feet pointing to the Kaaba, the holy sanctum. When a qazi admonished him for pointing his feel toward the house of God, Nanak replied that he was too tired to move and suggested that the qazi move his legs and point them in a direction where God did not exist. The qazi was stumped._) and it made me think of the custom of not pointing one's feet to the SGGS at the Gurudwara which I was taught in my very first visit to the Gurdwara in Barcelona (as, by chance, I sat down with my feet pointing to the SGGS). I hope I don't sound disrespectful:  I  thought, and still think, that neither the SGGS nor Waheguru mind my feet pointing to the SGGS at all. However, since then, I always avoid my feet pointing at the SGGS. It couldn't be easier to avoid and it makes my presence more comfortable to others. Also, as I'm very new in Sikhi, I don't think I'm entitled to discuss this rule. Even if I felt like doing so, which I don't.
> 
> ...



WJKK WJKF
Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is the eternal living guru as the embodiment of the 10 human gurus before. Many Blessed Gursikhs when looking st SGGS literally see Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Guru Gobind Singh Ji sitting before them in their physical form. SGGS is our King, Master, friend, companion, mother, father... Thus, we do not disrespect the Guru by pointing our feet towards SGGS. 
You have interpreted the Sakhi wrongly my friend. Guru Nanak Dev Ji suggested that the Qazi move his feet towards a direction that god does not exist. As he moved the Guru’s feet, the Kabba kept moving as well. Thus, teaching that Akaal Purakh is all-pervading and everywhere.

Bhul Chuk Maf
WJKK WJKF


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## Harry Haller (Aug 23, 2018)

Simranjit said:


> I just read about the occasion when Guru Nanak was asked to move himself so as his feet would not point to the Kaaba



Ah yes, the good old sakhis, foundation of what we call Sikhism! 



Simranjit said:


> (_At Mecca, Nanak lay down for a night’s rest with his feet pointing to the Kaaba, the holy sanctum. When a qazi admonished him for pointing his feel toward the house of God, Nanak replied that he was too tired to move and suggested that the qazi move his legs and point them in a direction where God did not exist. The qazi was stumped._)



Amazing how so many of these stories actually make our Gurus look insensitive or rude, I do not believe our Gurus were either



Simranjit said:


> and it made me think of the custom of not pointing one's feet to the SGGS at the Gurudwara which I was taught in my very first visit to the Gurdwara in Barcelona (as, by chance, I sat down with my feet pointing to the SGGS). I hope I don't sound disrespectful: I thought, and still think, that neither the SGGS nor Waheguru mind my feet pointing to the SGGS at all.



correct, but then it is not the SGGS or Waheguru that have the issue, the issue comes from human beings. 

Unfortunately, unless you are willing to cut human beings out of your life you have to live with them and their strange ways, customs and rituals.


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## Simranjit (Aug 23, 2018)

Balpreet Singh said:


> WJKK WJKF
> Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is the eternal living guru as the embodiment of the 10 human gurus before. Many Blessed Gursikhs when looking st SGGS literally see Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Guru Gobind Singh Ji sitting before them in their physical form. SGGS is our King, Master, friend, companion, mother, father... Thus, we do not disrespect the Guru by pointing our feet towards SGGS.
> You have interpreted the Sakhi wrongly my friend. Guru Nanak Dev Ji suggested that the Qazi move his feet towards a direction that god does not exist. As he moved the Guru’s feet, the Kabba kept moving as well. Thus, teaching that Akaal Purakh is all-pervading and everywhere.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Balpreet
What I meant is that pointing to someone with one's feet is a form of showing disrespect just because arbitrary it is like this in some cultures. In some others it might be a way of showing respect. For me it is absolutely neutral and the reason why I don't do it at the Gurdwara is just that I respect the other members of the Gurudwara and I want them to feel comfortable with my presence there (also that I don't want to be asked to leave the Gurdwara, of course  ). I do very much respect the SGGS. Every time I gent into the Gurdwara I bow to the SGGS (even if I know that while I'm supposed no to point my feet at the SGGS I'm not supposed to bow if I don't want to). I do it to remind myself how important are the teachings of the Guru in my life now. This is what really symbolizes my respect towards the Guru. I never bowed to anything or anyone before. Bowing at a religious element has, as I understand it, an strong meaning in my culture (European long catholic history plus post Catholic dictatorship). In this context, bowing shows a respect rooted in fear (which for me is not true respect). But I learnt that bowing at the SGGS was a wonderful way for me to show respect from love and gratefulness. It is my personal way to show respect. If I was allowed to point my feet at the SGGS sometimes my sitting position might be a bit more comfortable..... and it wouldn't mean I respect less the SGGS.

I would appreciate your feedback a lot 



Harry Haller said:


> Amazing how so many of these stories actually make our Gurus look insensitive or rude, I do not believe our Gurus were either


Thanks! I see I must read the Sakhis with precaution.



Harry Haller said:


> correct, but then it is not the SGGS or Waheguru that have the issue, the issue comes from human beings.
> 
> Unfortunately, unless you are willing to cut human beings out of your life you have to live with them and their strange ways, customs and rituals.



He, he. The thing is that I love human beings (although at times I would hide from most of them. Not too often, though)


I wanted to add that I also understand the beautiful power of symbols to create community or as sign of identity. Beautiful as long as we don't use them to put aside others that don't belong to the community, which I don't thin is the case. In fact, if I think about it, wearing a kara, although mainly a reminder to myself, is a way for me to feel part of the community too


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 23, 2018)

Simranjit said:


> I just read about the occasion when Guru Nanak was asked to move himself so as his feet would not point to the Kaaba (_At Mecca, Nanak lay down for a night’s rest with his feet pointing to the Kaaba, the holy sanctum. When a qazi admonished him for pointing his feel toward the house of God, Nanak replied that he was too tired to move and suggested that the qazi move his legs and point them in a direction where God did not exist. The qazi was stumped._) and it made me think of the custom of not pointing one's feet to the SGGS at the Gurudwara which I was taught in my very first visit to the Gurdwara in Barcelona (as, by chance, I sat down with my feet pointing to the SGGS). I hope I don't sound disrespectful: I thought, and still think, that neither the SGGS nor Waheguru mind my feet pointing to the SGGS at all. However, since then, I always avoid my feet pointing at the SGGS. It couldn't be easier to avoid and it makes my presence more comfortable to others. Also, as I'm very new in Sikhi, I don't think I'm entitled to discuss this rule. Even if I felt like doing so, which I don't.



Guru Fateh Sim,

This is more a cultural thing than a Sikhi one. In India, it is considered disrespectful to point one's soles at the elder. As the tangled cultural values get intertwined with the belief system, it becomes quite impossible to unknot them. Some rituals become like Siamese twins with the religious practices especially in a dogmatic hierarchical society like India where the pragmatic way of Sikhi is the only shining armour. The same ritual extends itself and holds the hands of another ritual of matha tek which many 2nd/3rd generations object to. Personally, I do not find any problem in accepting these rituals as long as I do not let myself impede them in my personal growth. These are just the cultural etiquettes. Nothing more.



Balpreet Singh said:


> WJKK WJKF
> Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is the eternal living guru as the embodiment of the 10 human gurus before. Many Blessed Gursikhs when looking st SGGS literally see Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Guru Gobind Singh Ji sitting before them in their physical form. SGGS is our King, Master, friend, companion, mother, father... Thus, we do not disrespect the Guru by pointing our feet towards SGGS.
> You have interpreted the Sakhi wrongly my friend. Guru Nanak Dev Ji suggested that the Qazi move his feet towards a direction that god does not exist. As he moved the Guru’s feet, the Kabba kept moving as well. Thus, teaching that Akaal Purakh is all-pervading and everywhere.



Guru Fateh Balpreet Singh,
Sorry to burst your bubble mate, the fairy tale above given by you does not jive with the Gurmat values because there is no such thing as a miracle in Sikhi the reason being, Sikhi accepts the laws of nature. No movement of one's feet can defy that. So, please do not dilute Sikhi into some snake oil sales charade.
I happen to agree with Simranjit's explanation of the Sakhi to explain the qazi the omnipresence of The Source.


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## Simranjit (Aug 24, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Guru Fateh Sim,
> 
> This is more a cultural thing than a Sikhi one. In India, it is considered disrespectful to point one's soles at the elder. As the tangled cultural values get intertwined with the belief system, it becomes quite impossible to unknot them. Some rituals become like Siamese twins with the religious practices especially in a dogmatic hierarchical society like India where the pragmatic way of Sikhi is the only shining armour. The same ritual extends itself and holds the hands of another ritual of matha tek which many 2nd/3rd generations object to.


Thanks! I'll google maha tek



Tejwant Singh said:


> Personally, I do not find any problem in accepting these rituals as long as I do not let myself impede them in my personal growth. These are just the cultural etiquettes. Nothing more.


Yes, I see it in the same way.


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## Balpreet Singh (Aug 24, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Guru Fateh Balpreet Singh,
> Sorry to burst your bubble mate, the fairy tale above given by you does not jive with the Gurmat values because there is no such thing as a miracle in Sikhi the reason being, Sikhi accepts the laws of nature. No movement of one's feet can defy that. So, please do not dilute Sikhi into some snake oil sales charade.
> I happen to agree with Simranjit's explanation of the Sakhi to explain the qazi the omnipresence of The Source.



WJKK WJKF
Bhai Sahib I believe you are mistaken. 
Sikhism accepts the possibility of supernatural powers, but like any wordly possession, they should not be used for selfish ends. A Sikh should not run after occultism, because the greatest gift is Nam and not supernatural power. 
According to Sikhism, occult powers come naturally through concentration on "The Nam". Miracles should not be performed at the bidding of a king or a leader or to prove the greatness of one's religion or to confirm the faith of people in a spiritual guide. Guru Ramdas says: "The desire to perform miracles is a wordly attachment and is an obstacle in the way of 'The Nam' residing in our hearts."

The Sikh Gurus did perform miracles off and on, but they did so out of compassion or to set an erring person right. Guru Nanak made the bitter soap-nuts sweet near Pilibhit, to save Mardana from death by starvation. 
The Guru condemned miracles performed for personal glory. Baba Atal who performed a miracle had to give up his life as atonement for it. Guru Arjan Dev Ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji were requested to perform miracles so that their lives whould be spared. They refused to do so and welcomed the penalty of death. The greatest miracle is not to perform a miracle, in spite of having the capacity to do so. As Emerson puts it: "Self-sacrifice is the real miracle out of which all the reported miracles flow."

Guru Nanak was asked by the Sikhs about his supernatural powers. He answered: "I can do nothing against the law of God. It is only He who can perform a miracle. The 'True Name' is the miracle of miracles. I know of no other miracles." Saintly people do not like to interfere with God's Will by performing miracles. The Sikh Gurus never performed miracles to convince others about their faith or to save themselves from calamities or penalities.

You clearly stated before that you do not believe that the Mecca revolved as the Qazi moved Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Feet; however, surely you cannot doubt this extract taken from Bhai Gurdass Jee's Vaars, which explains the 'micracle' clearly. 

*Baba at Mecca Pauris: 32-34*

Baabaa Dhiri Makay Gaiaa Neel Basatr Dhaaray Banavaaree.
Donning blue attire. then Baba Nanak went to Mecca.

Aasaa Hadi Kitaab Kachhi Koojaa Baang Mousalaa Dhaaree.
He held staff in his hand, pressed a book under his armpit, caught hold of a metal pot and mattress.

Baitdaa Jaai Maseet Vichi Jidai Haajee Haji Gujaaree.
Now he sat in a mosque where the pilgrms (hajis) had gathered.

Jaa Baabaa Soutaa Raati No Vali Maharaabay Paai Pasaaree.
When Baba (Nanak) slept in the night spreading his legs towards the alcove of mosque at Kaba,

Jeevani Maaree Lati Dee Kayharhaa Soutaa Kudhar Kudhaaree.
The qazi named Jivan kicked him and asked who was this infidel enacting blasphemy.

Lataa Vali Khudaai Day Kiu Kari Paiaa Hoi Bajigaaree.
Why this sinner is sleeping his legs spread towards God, Khuda.

Tangon Pakarhi Ghaseetiaa Dhiriaa Makaa Kalaa Dikhaaree.
Catching hold of the legs he lynched (Baba Nanak) and ,
lo and behold ! --The miracle, the whole of Mecca seemed to be revolving.

Hoi Hairaanu Karayni Juhaaree ॥32॥
All got surprised and they all bowed.

Hope this has helped.
Bhul Chuk Maf

WJKK WJKF


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## Harry Haller (Aug 24, 2018)

Balpreet Singh said:


> Sikhism accepts the possibility of supernatural powers



I thought Sikhs mocked at supernatural powers, powers that go against the fabric of the world, I thought the essence of Sikhi was enough without a firework show.



Balpreet Singh said:


> but like any wordly possession, they should not be used for selfish ends.



but that goes against human nature



Balpreet Singh said:


> A Sikh should not run after occultism, because the greatest gift is Nam and not supernatural power.



is that not an oxy{censored}? Surely a Sikh who has the gift of nam would have no interest in the supernatural.



Balpreet Singh said:


> According to Sikhism, occult powers come naturally through concentration on "The Nam". Miracles should not be performed at the bidding of a king or a leader or to prove the greatness of one's religion or to confirm the faith of people in a spiritual guide.



Phew, I do seem to meet a lot of kings and leaders these days, social skills are so important , must add, no performing miracles,



Balpreet Singh said:


> The Sikh Gurus did perform miracles off and on, but they did so out of compassion or to set an erring person right. Guru Nanak made the bitter soap-nuts sweet near Pilibhit, to save Mardana from death by starvation.



But err you said "A Sikh should not run after occultism, because the greatest gift is Nam and not supernatural power" were the Gurus not Sikhs?



Balpreet Singh said:


> The Guru condemned miracles performed for personal glory. Baba Atal who performed a miracle had to give up his life as atonement for it. Guru Arjan Dev Ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji were requested to perform miracles so that their lives whould be spared. They refused to do so and welcomed the penalty of death. The greatest miracle is not to perform a miracle, in spite of having the capacity to do so. As Emerson puts it: "Self-sacrifice is the real miracle out of which all the reported miracles flow."



so what gives? Baba Atal gets a good kicking, but Guru Nanak is lauded, is there a special set rule for miracles? is there a correspondence course I can do?



Balpreet Singh said:


> Guru Nanak was asked by the Sikhs about his supernatural powers. He answered: "I can do nothing against the law of God. It is only He who can perform a miracle. The 'True Name' is the miracle of miracles. I know of no other miracles."



sounds good!



Balpreet Singh said:


> The Sikh Gurus never performed miracles to convince others about their faith or to save themselves from calamities or penalities.


 ah right, not so good, so its ok to do miracles at say a function, or provided they were not convincing anyone or saving anyone, not much use then, sort of non miraculous miracles?



Balpreet Singh said:


> *Baba at Mecca Pauris: 32-34*
> 
> Baabaa Dhiri Makay Gaiaa Neel Basatr Dhaaray Banavaaree.
> Donning blue attire. then Baba Nanak went to Mecca.
> ...



ok how do you reconcile the above with your statement

"I can do nothing against the law of God. It is only He who can perform a miracle. The 'True Name' is the miracle of miracles. I know of no other miracles." Saintly people do not like to interfere with God's Will by performing miracles. The Sikh Gurus never performed miracles to convince others about their faith"


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 24, 2018)

Simranjit said:


> Thanks! I'll google maha tek



Sim,

Matha tek means bowing in front of the SGGS.


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## Tejwant Singh (Aug 24, 2018)

Balpreet Singh said:


> WJKK WJKF
> Bhai Sahib I believe you are mistaken.
> Sikhism accepts the possibility of supernatural powers, but like any wordly possession, they should not be used for selfish ends. A Sikh should not run after occultism, because the greatest gift is Nam and not supernatural power.
> According to Sikhism, occult powers come naturally through concentration on "The Nam". Miracles should not be performed at the bidding of a king or a leader or to prove the greatness of one's religion or to confirm the faith of people in a spiritual guide. Guru Ramdas says: "The desire to perform miracles is a wordly attachment and is an obstacle in the way of 'The Nam' residing in our hearts."
> ...



Please quote the full Shabad from the SGGS, our only Guru about the miracles you claim with your own understanding about the meaning of the Shabad. I am sure you are aware that Bhai Gurdas' vaaran did not pass the benchmark that our visionary Gurus had set forth. Hence, it was not added in the SGGS. It is nice poetry, nothing much and many of the vaaran are filled  with Ganga jal/Hindutva


Will be waiting for the Shabad/s regarding miracles from the SGGS, our only Guru.

Thanks


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## Balpreet Singh (Aug 24, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Please quote the full Shabad from the SGGS, our only Guru about the miracles you claim with your own understanding about the meaning of the Shabad. I am sure you are aware that Bhai Gurdas' vaaran did not pass the benchmark that our visionary Gurus had set forth. Hence, it was not added in the SGGS. It is nice poetry, nothing much and many of the vaaran are filled  with Ganga jal/Hindutva
> 
> 
> Will be waiting for the Shabad/s regarding miracles from the SGGS, our only Guru.
> ...



Gur Fateh Ji
Bhai Sahib Ji as we are Sikhs, I strongly urge to to research more about who Bhai Gurdass Ji was before criticizing his Vaars. 
*
Bhai Gurdas* (1551- 23 September 16371) is a much honoured Sikh scholar, missionary, and literary master who is also respected for his Sikh way of life. He was a leading figure in Sikhism who enjoyed the company of Guru Arjan, the fifth Sikh Guru.
It was under the supervision of the fifth Sikh Guru that he inscribed the first copy of Sikh Scripture, then called The Adi Granth, which is now respected as the perpetual Guru of the Sikhs and is central of the Sikh religion. He was also responsible for various writings in his own right which have gained much respect in the Sikh community. 
*Varan Bhai Gurdas* is the name given to the 40 Varan (Chapters) of writing by Bhai Gurdas ji. Guru Arjan Dev, the fifth Sikh Guru, referred to them as the, *“Key to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib” *. Bhai Gurdas was a first cousin of Mata Bhani, mother of Guru Arjan Dev. He was the first scribe of Guru Granth Sahib and a scholar of great repute. From his work it's clear that he had mastery of various Indian languages and had studied many ancient Indian religious scriptures.
This is quoted by Macauliffe in his book _“The Sikh Religion” _to express the importance placed by the Guru on Bhai Sahib's work, “The Guru, probably to make trial of his learned and able scribe Bhai Gur Das, whose compositions he admired, offered to insert them in the Granth, but Bhai Gur Das said that they were not worthy of such honour. The Guru complimented him on his modesty and ability, and said that whoever read Bhai's writings should acquire spiritual profit and instruction and faith in the teachings of the holy Gurus.”

Additionally, as you do not believe in Bhai Gurdass Ji's Vaars which is surprising to me personally. Albeit, there is another account through Taajudin Naqshabandhi. Taajudin joined Guru Nanak and remained with him for roughly one-and-a-half to two years. Taajudin documented his time with Guru Nanak in great detail. His notes describing Guru Nanak Dev Ji's journey to the middle east have been translated to english and are avaliable to read here: Guru Nanak's travel to the middle east.pdf

Furthermore, as you have asked for a Shabad to be presented, heres one from the top of my head:
This shabad taken from Dhan Dhan SGGS refers to how Bhagat Nam Dev was dragged out of his place of worship due to him being of lower caste and the Lord turns the temple towards him.

hsq Kylq qyry dyhury AwieAw ]
Laughing and playing, I came to Your Temple, O Lord.

Bgiq krq nwmw pkir auTwieAw ]1]
While Naam Dayv was worshipping, he was grabbed and driven out. ||1||

hInVI jwiq myrI jwidm rwieAw ]
I am of a low social class, O Lord;

CIpy ky jnim kwhy kau AwieAw ]1] rhwau ]
Why was I born into a family of fabric dyers? ||1||Pause||

lY kmlI cilE pltwie ]
I picked up my blanket and went back,

dyhurY pwCY bYTw jwie ]2]
To sit behind the temple. ||2||

ijau ijau nwmw hir gux aucrY ]
As Naam Dayv uttered the Glorious Praises of the Lord,

Bgq jnW kau dyhurw iPrY ]3]6]
The temple turned around to face the Lord's humble devotee. ||3||6||

That temple is still rotated 180 degrees. In most Hindu temples, the water pool ("kuub") is normally located at the front of the mandir; at this site, it can be seen at the back of the temple. Further, most temples face east since that is the most auspicious direction in the Hindu faith as the Sun rises from the East and the Sun is considered the destroyer of darkness and the giver of life. The Aundha Nagnath temple faces West.d.

This is the symbol of the true love of God towards His true worshipper.

Please do not wait for me to provide shabads when you can search the entirety of SGGS on the internet: iGurbani - iGurbani

Moreover, I don't claim to be a scholar on the issue as I'm far from being learnt and spiritually wise enough to comment on our religion's history and philosophy but just to elaborate in the 'miracle' sense, I believe everything is a miracle. Infact, Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Janamsakhi; is filled with miracles. To list *one* would be Guru Nanak Dev Ji's handprint in the stone at Panja Sahib, *was that not a miracle? *
Gurbani itself is a miracle. Guru Ji is a miracle. Guru ke Sikh are miracles. Guru ke Panj Piyare are miracles. `1699 Vaisakhi was a miracle. Baba Deep Singh Ji fought beheaded, Bhai Mati Daas Ji did Japji Sahib while getting sawed in half. Bhai Taru Singh Ji went to Sachkand after 22 days after getting his scalp removed (Zakaria Khan died before Bhai Taru Singh Ji). Baba Mani Singh ji did Sukhmani Sahib while getting cut into pieces. Guru ke 40 Singhs at Chamkaur Sahib fought against 2,200,000

There are countless miracles in Sikhi.

In punjabi the word for miracle is 'kautak'. I think people mistake the word miracle for the punjabi word "karamaat" which conforms to magic tricks and that prespective.

If I am wrong or have made a mistake anywhere, please correct me.

Here's a recording of Sant Maskeen Ji's Katha which elaborates on this particular issue clearly: 




Bhul Chuk Maf
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh


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## Simranjit (Aug 25, 2018)

I'm finding the conversation among you three very interesting and it helps me to understand to what extent there is a diversity in the way Sikhs understand Sikhi. All your points of view are so interesting and I'm grateful for the time you devote to share them here.

I'm just starting my journey in Sikhi. I have barely read a tiiiiny bit of the texts. Almost nothing. So, I cannot reach my own conclusion, not a rational conclusion at least, of what texts are realiable or what is the meaning of this or that text. However, my feeling is that what I have read so far from the SGGS is not consistent with the idea of a miracle being performed by the Gurus. I'm open to find out that I'm wrong and , sure, a few things would be more beautiful for me than to discover that by "true concentration in the Nam" a person can have the power to save everyone from starvation  by a click of their hands. It is a beautiful vision and I feel honestly moved by the care with which you describe it, Balpreet.
Unfortunately, for now, I don't have this faith. What I really hope is that if we are capable to connect with the source (for us called Waheguru, for others, "Universe", "God"...for others it doesn't even have name....) we will be able to live more accordingly with our true nature, a nature of love and compassion, and that we will be able to help others to do the same. And this way, a new era with  new economic, social and political structures will come, when there will be no starvation, inequalities, hunger for power or war. When people will nourish from loving relationships, healthy fresh foods, connecting with our Mother Earth... This is the miracle I'm really hoping for....

I would like to add I don't think that a religious path is necessary to follow for everybody to have the willing to participate in this change. I know plenty of people that follow a religious path and are not engaged with the change of paradigm and plenty of people that don't follow any religious path and that are very actively involved in activities aimed to make this a better world.


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## Simranjit (Aug 25, 2018)

What is a "Panga Master", Harry?


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## Admin (Aug 25, 2018)

Simranjit said:


> What is a "Panga Master", Harry?


Harry is our designated _Devil's Advocate!_ And he has earned his nomenclature after years and years of relentless efforts! 

Hence the title _Panga Master!_


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## Harry Haller (Aug 25, 2018)

Balpreet Singh said:


> The Guru, probably to make trial of his learned and able scribe Bhai Gur Das, whose compositions he admired, offered to insert them in the Granth, but Bhai Gur Das said that they were not worthy of such honour. The Guru complimented him on his modesty and ability, and said that whoever read Bhai's writings should acquire spiritual profit and instruction and faith in the teachings of the holy Gurus.”



Your saying Bhai Gur Das refused the wishes of the Guru? This has all the smells of an inaccurate sakhi, written funnily enough to defend all inaccurate sakhis.



Balpreet Singh said:


> That temple is still rotated 180 degrees



maybe they built the pool to confuse you?



Balpreet Singh said:


> Moreover, I don't claim to be a scholar on the issue as I'm far from being learnt and spiritually wise enough to comment on our religion's history and philosophy but just to elaborate in the 'miracle' sense, I believe everything is a miracle. Infact, Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Janamsakhi; is filled with miracles. To list *one* would be Guru Nanak Dev Ji's handprint in the stone at Panja Sahib, *was that not a miracle? *


no, it was not, some feel his knowledge was the miracle, not side tricks.



Balpreet Singh said:


> Gurbani itself is a miracle. Guru Ji is a miracle. Guru ke Sikh are miracles. Guru ke Panj Piyare are miracles. `1699 Vaisakhi was a miracle. Baba Deep Singh Ji fought beheaded, Bhai Mati Daas Ji did Japji Sahib while getting sawed in half. Bhai Taru Singh Ji went to Sachkand after 22 days after getting his scalp removed (Zakaria Khan died before Bhai Taru Singh Ji). Baba Mani Singh ji did Sukhmani Sahib while getting cut into pieces. Guru ke 40 Singhs at Chamkaur Sahib fought against 2,200,000



none are miracles, merely corrupted stories of true human spirit and attitude, that is the true miracle, why side step such a wonderful miracle with sideshows?


Balpreet Singh said:


> f I am wrong or have made a mistake anywhere, please correct me.


no, none of us are here to correct anyone,  none of us really knows, all we can do is debate and discuss and put forward our own opinions,


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Aug 25, 2018)

Balpreet Singh said:


> Gur Fateh Ji
> Bhai Sahib Ji as we are Sikhs, I strongly urge to to research more about who Bhai Gurdass Ji was before criticizing his Vaars.



Guru Fateh, Balpreet Singh

Firstly, I cannot read these Gurmukhi fonts from where ever you copied and pasted the Shabad. Please use Sri Granth
As mentioned earlier please post your personal understanding of the Shabad because all the English ones are distorted hence misleading. Lastly, do not forget to add the Ang number so all can relish the fruit.
Please also keep in mind that Bhagat NamDev and Bhagat Trilochan were born 200 years before Guru Nanak. So, always create that scenario in your mind to truly understand what they are trying to say.
Once I am able to understand where you are coming from with your thought process on Gurbani, then only will I be able to respond.  We are all learners here. Thanks for joining the crowd.

Thanks


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## Sikhilove (Aug 26, 2018)

Simranjit said:


> Hi!
> 
> I just read about the occasion when Guru Nanak was asked to move himself so as his feet would not point to the Kaaba (_At Mecca, Nanak lay down for a night’s rest with his feet pointing to the Kaaba, the holy sanctum. When a qazi admonished him for pointing his feel toward the house of God, Nanak replied that he was too tired to move and suggested that the qazi move his legs and point them in a direction where God did not exist. The qazi was stumped._) and it made me think of the custom of not pointing one's feet to the SGGS at the Gurudwara which I was taught in my very first visit to the Gurdwara in Barcelona (as, by chance, I sat down with my feet pointing to the SGGS). I hope I don't sound disrespectful:  I  thought, and still think, that neither the SGGS nor Waheguru mind my feet pointing to the SGGS at all. However, since then, I always avoid my feet pointing at the SGGS. It couldn't be easier to avoid and it makes my presence more comfortable to others. Also, as I'm very new in Sikhi, I don't think I'm entitled to discuss this rule. Even if I felt like doing so, which I don't.
> 
> ...



Gurus Nanak teaching with the Kaaba incident was that God is everywhere.

It doesn't matter where your feet point, He's everywhere.

The Entire Universe is a Gurdwara. A Gurdwara on Earth is symbolic of this.


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## Simranjit (Aug 28, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> The Entire Universe is a Gurdwara. A Gurdwara on Earth is symbolic of this.





Sikhilove said:


> Gurus Nanak teaching with the Kaaba incident was that God is everywhere.
> 
> It doesn't matter where your feet point, He's everywhere.
> 
> The Entire Universe is a Gurdwara. A Gurdwara on Earth is symbolic of this.


Thanks!



> The Entire Universe is a Gurdwara. A Gurdwara on Earth is symbolic of this.



Thanks for this specially. It helps me to see that I'm understanding the SGGS as I read it. Reading the Kirtan Sohila more than one year a go for the first time I was totally thrilled to find a religion for which the whole universe is a temple. It is one of the reasons I approached Sikhi more and more.


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## Sikhilove (Aug 30, 2018)

Simranjit said:


> Thanks!
> 
> The Entire Universe is a Gurdwara. A Gurdwara on Earth is symbolic of this.





> Thanks for this specially. It helps me to see that I'm understanding the SGGS as I read it. Reading the Kirtan Sohila more than one year a go for the first time I was totally thrilled to find a religion for which the whole universe is a temple. It is one of the reasons I approached Sikhi more and more.



Sikhism isn't a religion, sikh means student. The Gurus taught the truth which has existed since eternity and will always exist. It's been taught by other teachers but many of their messages have been corrupted over time.

Nanak taught it in its purity to an incredibly deep level.

Yeh the concept of the universe being a temple is mind baffling and beyond words.

Earth is a setting where we can learn and practice Truth at a deep level. Even masters can learn here.


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## Harry Haller (Aug 31, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> Yeh the concept of the universe being a temple is mind baffling and beyond words.



yes, the universe is like a temple, full of people hell bent on wearing the smartest most expensive clothes, with the smartest most expensive cars, acting in a fake manner and showing everyone else just how religious they are


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## IJJSingh (Sep 2, 2018)

Love, respect and our inner thoughts reside in our heart and cannot be seen by others.  Society in its yearning for a proof that everybody in a gathering has respect for a solemn event has developed visible proxies for representing inner emotions.  Wearing black in a funeral, addressing a judge as “your honor” in a court, and not pointing feet towards somebody you respect are all such examples.  These proxies are harmless and do foster harmony and comfort, and therefore should be followed.  However, the problem starts when these proxies become the focus and people forget the bigger meaning.   From time to time saints jolt us to bring us back on track.  Purpose of their actions is not to oppose the ritual or to insult the gathering but to remind people of the greater truth which is usually lost behind these rituals. 

A crowd outside a mosque in Lahore kept beating Bulleh Shah, a Sufi saint, because he wouldn’t stop saying ‘meri jutti thulay rab’ (God is under my shoe).  Until a wise man realized what Bulleh Shah was trying to teach and explained to the mob that Bulle Shah is only demonstrating what Quran tells us every day about the all-pervading Allah.

It’s important to remain vigilant and keep SGGS our guide. Otherwise, it’s very easy to get misled by these rituals.   I remember an episode from the biography of Sant Sangat Singh ji Kamalia (Kathriya Santah, Volume 2, p137).  Sant ji (1882-1950) was an inspired soul, a revered Sikh scholar, and a tireless preacher.  He was one of the 29 Sikhs tasked by the Panth for compiling the common Sikh Rehat Maryada.  Sant ji used to organize events to get sangat involved with gurbani as much as possible.  One such annual event was the concurrent twenty-five akhand paths (uninterrupted recitation of SGGS), where readers would read in unison.  During this event, there would be hardly anybody in the sangat who wouldn’t be assigned some role in recitation, listening, langar or sewa.  I have seen these events, later on after Sant ji moved to Patiala after the Indian independence.  This event in question was in 1941, and as always there were 25 sarups of SGGS organized in a semi-circle, and some of the sangat used to sit inside the semi-circle and the rest facing the semi-circle.  A lot of sangat used to gather for this event, and Sant Balwant Singh ji along with his Jatha was among the visiting sangat this year.   Sant Balwant Singh ji didn’t like the setup and complained to Sangat Singh ji that some of the sangat sitting inside the semi-circle are not facing all of the sarups.  Balwant Singh Ji felt that it is disrespectful as some in sangat have their shoulder or back towards some of the sarups.  Sant Sangat Singh ji smiled and didn’t say anything.  At the conclusion of the Akhand Paths, after the Kirtan was over, Sant Sangat Singh started his Katha.  Sant Ji said there was a king named Mahmood Gazanvi.  He ruled Gazni and invaded India several times.  This king had a slave named Ayaz.  The king had purchased Ayaz in young age and had raised him.  Ayaz grew up to be a very wise young man who was fiercely loyal to the king.  The king started depending more and more upon Ayaz’ counsel and made Ayaz’s approval a must before he implemented any decision proposed by his cabinet of ministers.  This practice irked the ministers to no end, and in jealousy, they started looking for an opportunity to bring Ayaz down.  Ayaz used to sleep on the floor next to the King’s bed.  One night when both the King and Ayaz were fast asleep, the prime minister managed to maneuver Ayaz’s feet towards the king and waited outside the room.  As soon as the king woke up, the minister rushed into the room and said to the king, “Sire, we are even afraid of your shadow but look at this insolent slave he is lying with his feet towards you”.  The king became enraged and called his soldiers to arrest Ayaz.  Next day in the court, the ministers further egged the king to give exemplary punishment to Ayaz so that nobody ever dares again to disrespect the king.  The king passed the death sentence and ordered that Ayaz be brought in front of him and be executed in public.  When Ayaz was brought  before the king, the king asked, “Do you have anything to say before your death?”  Ayaz said, “Sir if I have your permission, I do have one request”.  The king said, “Speak”.  Ayaz with his bowed head and folded hands said, “Many years ago when you bought me in the market.  Did you buy my head?  Or did you buy my hands?  Which part of me did you buy?”  The king said, “I bought all of you”.  Ayaz said, “Did you also buy my feet in this transaction”.  “Of course I did”, the king replied.  Ayaz said, “Sir, if you own my head, my body, and my feet, then nothing here is mine.  If these were my feet, then it would have been an insult for you.  Since these are your own feet, how could these offend you?”  The king was astonished at hearing his slave’s words and pardoned him immediately.  Sant Sangat Singh Ji said, “Since all of the body parts of the sangat are owned by Guru Nanak, Kalgidhar Patshah, and Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then how can there be an insult?”  There was complete silence in sangat, tears started rolling down Sant Balwant Singh ji’s eyes, and sobbingly he said, “Bakhsh Lavo, Bakhash Lavo, Bakhash Lavo!”


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Sep 8, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> with the smartest most expensive cars



it is time i buy one 

but this thread reminds us.. respect can't be enforced but earned


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## Harry Haller (Sep 8, 2018)

Kanwaljit.Singh said:


> it is time i buy one
> 
> but this thread reminds us.. respect can't be enforced but earned


in our culture? nah, all it takes is a new s class and some hideously garish jewelry


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## Sikhilove (Oct 1, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> yes, the universe is like a temple, full of people hell bent on wearing the smartest most expensive clothes, with the smartest most expensive cars, acting in a fake manner and showing everyone else just how religious they are



They're the ones who are either oblivious of the universe being a temple or choose to ignore it. 

Were here to learn


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## Harry Haller (Oct 1, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> They're the ones who are either oblivious of the universe being a temple or choose to ignore it.


99.99% of the world then...


Sikhilove said:


> Were here to learn


starting with apostrophes!


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## Sikhilove (Oct 1, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> 99.99% of the world then...
> 
> starting with apostrophes!


It's a learning process, everyones at their own stages


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Oct 2, 2018)

Seriously, this whole thing about feet being disreputable gets back to caste and Manusmriti naming Shudras the feet of the social order.


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## sukhsingh (Oct 4, 2018)

Balpreet Singh said:


> WJKK WJKF
> Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is the eternal living guru as the embodiment of the 10 human gurus before. Many Blessed Gursikhs when looking st SGGS literally see Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Guru Gobind Singh Ji sitting before them in their physical form. SGGS is our King, Master, friend, companion, mother, father... Thus, we do not disrespect the Guru by pointing our feet towards SGGS.
> You have interpreted the Sakhi wrongly my friend. Guru Nanak Dev Ji suggested that the Qazi move his feet towards a direction that god does not exist. As he moved the Guru’s feet, the Kabba kept moving as well. Thus, teaching that Akaal Purakh is all-pervading and everywhere.
> 
> ...


Whilst I find this interpretation interesting I have to say I don't find it convincing.. 

I think you draw attention to a couple of things worth consideration : firstly yes culturally we believe that sitting with our feet towards guru sahib is disrespectful, which culturally it most definitely is, guru nanak dev jis sakhi surfaces a higher truth which is to say these things are maya.. We can obsess over these things but we really shouldn't.. If someone was sitting in Gur darbar laying down with feet pointing towards guru ji we obviously would find it offensive and disrespectful.. But if we look at the sakhi what the point is that yes all very well for us to maintain conventions and etiquette but if said etiquette and policing of behaviour dominates our thinking then surely we are spending far too much time observing others.. Rather than spending time looking at ourselves


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## Harry Haller (Oct 5, 2018)

sukhsingh said:


> Whilst I find this interpretation interesting I have to say I don't find it convincing..
> 
> I think you draw attention to a couple of things worth consideration : firstly yes culturally we believe that sitting with our feet towards guru sahib is disrespectful, which culturally it most definitely is, guru nanak dev jis sakhi surfaces a higher truth which is to say these things are maya.. We can obsess over these things but we really shouldn't.. If someone was sitting in Gur darbar laying down with feet pointing towards guru ji we obviously would find it offensive and disrespectful.. But if we look at the sakhi what the point is that yes all very well for us to maintain conventions and etiquette but if said etiquette and policing of behaviour dominates our thinking then surely we are spending far too much time observing others.. Rather than spending time looking at ourselves



The great thing about Sakhis is, most can be discounted as actually spreading a message other than that which the Gurus may have wanted to teach, do I think that Sakhi actually happened in that way, no, I do not, I do not feel the first master was capable of such , I feel he was a respectful man and would have made his point more subtly. 

Of course we observe others, that is what life is all about, every desire, every car, every house, everything in our wants and dreams comes from observing others, whether it is in person or through media, our very perception of what life is about and what is true meaning is derived from our observation of the 'others', the fact that India is turning into a rather cheap shabby copy of the USA, and rejecting centuries of culture and history is down to how the other half lives, no one looks at themselves, why would they? all they would see would be a blank canvas, and a complete lack of original thought, 

We are simply educated apes that copy the alpha apes and yearn for what they have, bigger bananas, a less hairy mate, a nice tree, respect, power, it just so happens that we do it in clothes, and use a language, and we kid ourselves we are civilised, good and proper people, but I look out my window, and all I see is monkeys wanting to be apes, apes wanting to be orangutangs.

Maybe instead of Ek Onkar, Satnam, the correct mantra is Log Kya Kehinge, what will people say?


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## Logical Sikh (Oct 5, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> The great thing about Sakhis is, most can be discounted as actually spreading a message other than that which the Gurus may have wanted to teach, do I think that Sakhi actually happened in that way, no, I do not, I do not feel the first master was capable of such , I feel he was a respectful man and would have made his point more subtly.
> 
> Of course we observe others, that is what life is all about, every desire, every car, every house, everything in our wants and dreams comes from observing others, whether it is in person or through media, our very perception of what life is about and what is true meaning is derived from our observation of the 'others', the fact that India is turning into a rather cheap shabby copy of the USA, and rejecting centuries of culture and history is down to how the other half lives, no one looks at themselves, why would they? all they would see would be a blank canvas, and a complete lack of original thought,
> 
> ...



I think the Original Mantra should be, "Log Sadde Baare Ki Sochde, Je Eh v Asi Sochaange, Ta fer Log Sadde Baare Ki Sochange." XD


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Oct 12, 2018)

Simranjit said:


> Hi!
> 
> I just read about the occasion when Guru Nanak was asked to move himself so as his feet would not point to the Kaaba (_At Mecca, Nanak lay down for a night’s rest with his feet pointing to the Kaaba, the holy sanctum. When a qazi admonished him for pointing his feel toward the house of God, Nanak replied that he was too tired to move and suggested that the qazi move his legs and point them in a direction where God did not exist. The qazi was stumped._) and it made me think of the custom of not pointing one's feet to the SGGS at the Gurudwara which I was taught in my very first visit to the Gurdwara in Barcelona (as, by chance, I sat down with my feet pointing to the SGGS). I hope I don't sound disrespectful:  I  thought, and still think, that neither the SGGS nor Waheguru mind my feet pointing to the SGGS at all. However, since then, I always avoid my feet pointing at the SGGS. It couldn't be easier to avoid and it makes my presence more comfortable to others. Also, as I'm very new in Sikhi, I don't think I'm entitled to discuss this rule. Even if I felt like doing so, which I don't.
> 
> ...


Please do not compare yourself with Guru Nanak. What Guru Nanak did in Mecca was to deliver a message that whole universe is the house of Lord Akal purakh, ,he is not bound at one place, he didn't disrespect the Lord but it gave a message to fanatic ignorants. 
Now whether you while sitting at your home with your parents, would you point your feet towards them? Absolutely not. It will be accounted as disrespect to elders. 
Similarly there is a code of condust in every civilized society and here too in a gurudwara you aren't supposed to point your feet to SGGS, thats certainly looks odd and disrespective.


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## Logical Sikh (Oct 12, 2018)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Please do not compare yourself with Guru Nanak.



Why wouldn't you ?


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## Harry Haller (Oct 12, 2018)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Please do not compare yourself with Guru Nanak.


maybe if more people did, instead of seeing him as some sort of magician or demi god, Sikhism would be in a better place, I often remark to other Sikhs why they do not take more inspiration from his ideals and philosophies, only to be told, oh well, he was a Guru, I am just an ordinary person,



Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> What Guru Nanak did in Mecca was to deliver a message that whole universe is the house of Lord Akal purakh, ,he is not bound at one place, he didn't disrespect the Lord but it gave a message to fanatic ignorants.



rubbish, if someone acted in a similar fashion in a Gurudwara he would be beaten up, I doubt very much this took place, it is another sakhi blown out of proportion with an element of chinese whispers, the Guru Nanak that I hold dear would have made his point in an eloquent fashion without needing to insult or use the supernatural.



Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Now whether you while sitting at your home with your parents, would you point your feet towards them?


without any issue at all, such is merely lip service, I know of folks that show huge respect to their parents in this fashion, but it is the only way in which this respect is shown..lip service.



Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Similarly there is a code of condust in every civilized society and here too in a gurudwara you aren't supposed to point your feet to SGGS, thats certainly looks odd and disrespective.



no, what looks odd and disrespective is an entire religion that is more obsessed with showing faux respect to a holy manuscript and living Guru,  rather than actually reading, understanding and following it,


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## Ishna (Oct 12, 2018)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Please do not compare yourself with Guru Nanak. What Guru Nanak did in Mecca was to deliver a message that whole universe is the house of Lord Akal purakh, ,he is not bound at one place, he didn't disrespect the Lord but it gave a message to fanatic ignorants.
> Now whether you while sitting at your home with your parents, would you point your feet towards them? Absolutely not. It will be accounted as disrespect to elders.
> Similarly there is a code of condust in every civilized society and here too in a gurudwara you aren't supposed to point your feet to SGGS, thats certainly looks odd and disrespective.



Where I come from, pointing feet at someone or something is not disrespectful.  What a tricky situation.  I'm quite sure our feet do not offend God, no matter which direction they are pointed.  I suppose when a culture does consider pointing feet disrespectful, guests should respect that, and not do it.  But what happens when a Gurdwara is built by people in a culture that is not bothered by feet pointing, and a Punjabi person comes to visit?


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## Harry Haller (Oct 12, 2018)

Ishna said:


> Where I come from, pointing feet at someone or something is not disrespectful.  What a tricky situation.  I'm quite sure our feet do not offend God, no matter which direction they are pointed.  I suppose when a culture does consider pointing feet disrespectful, guests should respect that, and not do it.  But what happens when a Gurdwara is built by people in a culture that is not bothered by feet pointing, and a Punjabi person comes to visit?



easy, they club together with all their relatives, build another Gurdwara and declare the first one as built by heretics!


----------



## Sikhilove (Oct 12, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> Rubbish, if someone acted in a similar fashion in a Gurudwara he would be beaten up, I doubt very much this took place, it is another sakhi blown out of proportion with an element of chinese whispers, the Guru Nanak that I hold dear would have made his point in an eloquent fashion without needing to insult or use the supernatural.
> 
> 
> without any issue at all, such is merely lip service, I know of folks that show huge respect to their parents in this fashion, but it is the only way in which this respect is shown..lip service.
> ...



I liked the majority of your post, esp the last part.

Re the Chinese whispers bit...

Dont underestimate God's love.

 Nanak walked into the middle east teaching misguided Muslims truth, regardless of what could have happened to him.

Imagine someone doing that now in Saudi..

He puts us where we deserve to be. He preserves our honor. When it's His will, he guides us and keep us out of harms way.

He is the fine line between your plane crashing down as it leaves the tarmac, between that bus missing you as you walk onto the street, between being mugged by the theif, bitten by the snake.

He's the line between u getting that dream job promotion, between you meeting Mrs right or that friend for life, meeting the precious jewel of a friend who supports our growth in our changing our life 'by chance'. 

He is the Granth and He is the foot. If he's everyone and anything including the guys who want to beat the humanitarian up for speaking the truth, then surely anything is possible in His love. Is your very life not an incredible miracle? 

 We lack respect for the love from which He's created us , we dismiss it as fairytales and hearsay. In essence, we ignore our greatest lover, and we reject His love. Recognize Him in everyone, everything, every action.


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## Logical Sikh (Oct 13, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> If he's everyone and anything including the guys who want to beat the humanitarian up for speaking the truth, then surely anything is possible in His love.



How is lord the one, who beats around people who speaks truth abt the lord. ?



Sikhilove said:


> Recognize Him in everyone, everything, every action.



How do you recognize lord in a Rapist, A Terrorist, A Murderer, in themselves and in their actions ?


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## Sikhilove (Oct 13, 2018)

Logical Sikh said:


> How is lord the one, who beats around people who speaks truth abt the lord. ?
> 
> 
> 
> How do you recognize lord in a Rapist, A Terrorist, A Murderer, in themselves and in their actions ?



That's all you got from that?


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## Logical Sikh (Oct 13, 2018)

Just curious XD XD


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## Harry Haller (Oct 14, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> I liked the majority of your post, esp the last part.


thank you



Sikhilove said:


> Re the Chinese whispers bit...
> 
> Dont underestimate God's love.


We are all entitled to our own view, in my view, what we call love, is not what God calls love, our definition of love is too surface, too obvious, too short term, if God does love us, then it bears no resemblance to what we as humans know as love.


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## Sikhilove (Oct 14, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> thank you
> 
> 
> We are all entitled to our own view, in my view, what we call love, is not what God calls love, our definition of love is too surface, too obvious, too short term, if God does love us, then it bears no resemblance to what we as humans know as love.



It's unconditional, and it's beyond logic.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 15, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> It's unconditional, and it's beyond logic.



then it is not what we humans call love, human love is rooted in logic and conditions,


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## Ishna (Oct 15, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> then it is not what we humans call love, human love is rooted in logic and conditions,



I daresay she is referring to _love _in this form Agape - Wikipedia  Remember, one word in English can mean different things.

However, this is quite a Christian concept.  Is there a corresponding Sikh concept?


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## Sikhilove (Oct 15, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> then it is not what we humans call love, human love is rooted in logic and conditions,



Yep. It can be unconditional though. 

True unconditional love elevates the human to unimaginable heights. What bliss you think the Gurus were always talking about?


----------



## sukhsingh (Oct 16, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> Nanak walked into the middle east teaching misguided Muslims truth, regardless of what could have happened to him.
> 
> Imagine someone doing that now in Saudi..
> 
> He puts us where we deserve to be. He preserves our honor. When it's His will, he guides us and keep us out of harms way.


I'm sorry but I have a real issue with this characterisation.. On a number of levels . 

How can you say he went around teaching misguided Muslims the truth? He may have and I believe that he did elucidate and articulate essential truths but I don't believe he went about with a messiah complex trying to save people. Nor do I see any evidence that substantiates that type of reading . I think he was steadfast in a expanding his experience, verifying and challenging his own philosophical beliefs which he had distilled into what I personally consider the most profound, perfectly constructed, concise expression of 'Everything'. Namely , Mool mantar.. I fundamentally disagree with the idea that 'he' (and you seem to conflate guru nanak the person and a conception of the divine) puts us where we deserve to be.. Because that contradicts nirbhau, nirvair.. Guru Nanaks articulations tell us we have control over a great many things in our life and provides us with anecdotes and really very simple examples of how we can if we choose to shed falsehoods.. But it is us who are the agents not him or the divine and definitely not some 'God'. 


Sikhilove said:


> It's unconditional, and it's beyond logic.


I disagree that it is beyond logic.. If anything bani is very logical.. The logic is that we must constantly, move and seek, to live as Sikhs as disciples and students. Because we can always do more.. We should never put our hands up and say we have arrived there is nothing more to do. Because if that was the case we wouldn't be living, we could withdraw from society and live in a cave. But as long as we see falsehood we must engage and find solutions whilst not compromising.. A tall order but a ideal, which if we truly believe in bani we must do


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## Harry Haller (Oct 17, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> What bliss you think the Gurus were always talking about?


have you ever been to Amsterdam?


----------



## Sikhilove (Oct 19, 2018)

sukhsingh said:


> I'm sorry but I have a real issue with this characterisation.. On a number of levels .
> 
> How can you say he went around teaching misguided Muslims the truth? He may have and I believe that he did elucidate and articulate essential truths but I don't believe he went about with a messiah complex trying to save people. Nor do I see any evidence that substantiates that type of reading . I think he was steadfast in a expanding his experience, verifying and challenging his own philosophical beliefs which he had distilled into what I personally consider the most profound, perfectly constructed, concise expression of 'Everything'. Namely , Mool mantar.. I fundamentally disagree with the idea that 'he' (and you seem to conflate guru nanak the person and a conception of the divine) puts us where we deserve to be.. Because that contradicts nirbhau, nirvair.. Guru Nanaks articulations tell us we have control over a great many things in our life and provides us with anecdotes and really very simple examples of how we can if we choose to shed falsehoods.. But it is us who are the agents not him or the divine and definitely not some 'God'.
> 
> I disagree that it is beyond logic.. If anything bani is very logical.. The logic is that we must constantly, move and seek, to live as Sikhs as disciples and students. Because we can always do more.. We should never put our hands up and say we have arrived there is nothing more to do. Because if that was the case we wouldn't be living, we could withdraw from society and live in a cave. But as long as we see falsehood we must engage and find solutions whilst not compromising.. A tall order but a ideal, which if we truly believe in bani we must do



Muslims at the time were misguided. Basically worshipping the Kaaba, killing infidels, following the way if corruption and not truth. Nanak went, as humanitarians do out of love, to bring them back to basics, before the corruption.

By He, I meant God, the Everpresent Truth.

It's beyond what the mind can comprehend. Divine knowledge is not worldly logic, it's Gyan.

Agreed that we should never out our hands up and say we have learned everything. The path is infinite, just like him, the discoveries are infinite.


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## Sikhilove (Oct 19, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> have you ever been to Amsterdam?



No. I dont do drugs either. No point in burying yourself deeper in illusion.


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