# Udasi's



## muddymick (Jul 2, 2013)

Although this may be slightly contentious it is not meant to be inflammatory or disrespectful to anyone.

Are there any Udasis here?

What is distinct and what is the same for Udasi's and mainstream Sikh's?

Are Udasis considered to be fully part and parcel of the wider Sikh community?

I ask as the information on the internet is often contradictory and maybe misleading.

Many Thanks


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 2, 2013)

Muddymick ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please express your thoughts and your knowledge about the subject you are asking first as you are its progenitor of the thread, so that we can discuss about it.

Here is how you put it as a starter where it seems that your mind has already been made up which is  rather unfortunate.



> muddymick;186963]Although this may be slightly contentious it is not meant to be inflammatory or disrespectful to anyone.



I have no idea why is this starter's gun ready in your hand? What's its purpose?



> Are there any Udasis here?



Udasis by whom and what is the purpose of your question? Please share your thoughts first.



> What is distinct and what is the same for Udasi's and mainstream Sikh's?
> 
> Are Udasis considered to be fully part and parcel of the wider Sikh community?



Once again, please express yourself in details about your queries and what are they based on?



> I ask as the information on the internet is often contradictory and maybe misleading.



What made you conclude the information is misleading?

What knowledge do you have about it?

Please be precise.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Jul 2, 2013)

The thread is moved to Sanatan Sikhism in the Sikh, Sikhi Sikhism forum 

Udasi are considered a spiritual lineage within the sampardyaan or traditions dating back to the days of the Guru Sahibs.


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## spnadmin (Jul 2, 2013)

The word udasi means to withdraw, and by derivation the Udasi are a sect of renunciates. They have their own rehat, which is distinct from the Sikh Rehat Maryada, as do the other sampardyaan. Sampardyaan are early traditions within Sikhism contemporaneous with the times of the Gurus. Udasi identify with lineages or followers of a sadhu or holy man. Udasi also have a distinct tradition of liturgical music. Their interactions with other traditions and movements (e.g., Nihangs and/or the Singhsaba movement) within the history of Sikhism has at times been turbulent. Some lineages within the Udasi may or may not consider "Sikh" an accurate description of their religious adherence. 

I am posting this entry from the Sikh Encyclopedia. It is probably the most detailed description of the Udasi that I can find. This information is consistent with historical accounts by both Sikhs, like HS Dilgeer, and western historicans, like MA Macaullife.


UDASI, an ascetical sect of the Sikhs founded by Sri Chand (1494-1629), the elder son of Guru Nanak. Udasi is derived from the Sanskrit word udasin, i.e. one who is indifferent to or disregardful of worldly attachments, a stoic, or a mendicant. In Sikh tradition, the term iidasi has also been used for each of the four preaching tours of Guru Nanak ; in this sense, udasi meant a prolonged absence from home. Some scholars, including many Udasis, trace the origin of the sect back to the Puranic age, but, historically speaking, Sri Chand was the founder.

The Matra, the sacred incantation or composition, attributed to the Udasi saint, Balu HaSria, records that Sri Chand received enlightenment from Guru Nanak, the perfect Guru, and that, after the passing away of the latter, he started his own sect. Sri Chand was a devoted Sikh and a saintly person. His object in establishing the order of the Udasis was to propagate the mission of his father. Sri Chand kept on amicable terms with the successors of Guru Nanak. According to Kesar Singh Chhibbar, he sent two turbans at the death of Guru Ram Das in AD 1581, one for Prithi Chand, the eldest son of the deceased Guru, and another for Guru Arjan in recognition of his succession to the Guruship.

In AD 1629, Sri Chand asked Guru Hargobind to spare one of his sons to join him in his religious preaching. The Guru gave him Baba Gurditta, his eldest son. Baba Gurditta, although married, was disposed to saintly living. Before his death, Baba Sri Chand admitted Baba Gurditta to the Udasi order and appointed him his successor. Baba Gurditta appointed four head preachers Almast, Phul, Goind (or Gonda) and Balu Husria. He gave them his own dress which became the peculiar Udasi garb and smouldering embers from Baba Sri Chand`s dhum (sadhu`s hearth) to be taken to their new monastic seats.

These Udasi sadhus set up from those embers a new dhuan each at his seat and thus came into existence tlie four dhunns or hearths which became active centres of Udasi preaching. Each dhuari came to be known after the name of its principal preacher. The Udasis proved zealous preachers of Sikhism and carried its message to the far corners of the country and beyond. They especially rediscovered places which had been visited by the Gurus and which had fallen into obscurity with the passage of time. They established on such spots their deras and sangats and preached Gurbani.

Thus the Udasi dhuans popularized the teaching of Guru Nanak not only in the Punjab but also in far off places. Besides the four dhuans, there emerged another set of Udasi seats called bakhshishan, which flourished during the time of Guru Har Rai, Guru Tegh Bahadur and Guru Gobind Singh. A bakhshish (lit. bounty) was a missionary assignment conferred upon an individual by the Guru. There were six prominent bakhshishan, viz. Bhagat Bhagvanie (followers of Bhagat Bhagvan) ; SuthrashahJe ( followers of Suthrashah) ; Sangat Sahibie (followers of Sangat Sahib ) ; Mihan Shahie or Mihan Dasie, so called after Mihan, the title conferred by Guru Tegh Bahadur on Ramdev; Bakht Mallie ( followers of Bakht Mall) ; and Jit Mallie (followers ofJIt Mall).

The saints of bakhshishes travelled widely and established their deras, sangats, maths and akharas in distant places throughout India. The Udasis preached the message of Guru Nanak and revered and recited the ban! of the Gurus, but they retained their separate identity. Baba Sri Chand did occasionally visit the Gurus who treated him with respect for being a saintly personage as well as for being a son of Guru Nanak. But they extended no patronage to his sect. However, after Baba Sri Chand had had from Guru Hargobind his eldest son, Baba Gurditta, to admit to his sect, the Udasis began to receive support and guidance from the Gurus. Guru Hargobind`s successors conferred bakhshishes upon Udasi sadhus.

Several of the Udasi saints are remembered with esteem in the Sikh tradition. For instance, the famous Bhagat Bhagvan, Bhai Pheru of the Sangat Sahibia order, who had served in the langar or community kitchen in the time of Guru Har Rai, and Ramdev (later known as Mihan Sahib), who was originally a mashki or water carrier in the service of Guru Tegh Bahadur and who had received from him for his devoted service the title of Mihan (bestower of rain) as well as the dress and marks of an Udasi consisting of selhi (woollen cord), topi" (cap), chola (hermit`s gown) and a nagara (drum). Ramdev established his own order of the Udasis which came to be known as Mihan Dasie or Mihan Shahie.

Another notable Udasi sadhu was Mahant Kirpal who took part in the battle of Bhangani (1689) under Guru Gobind Singh. After the abolition of the order of the masands by Guru Gobind Singh, the preaching of Guru Nanak`s word fell to the Udasis who also gradually took control of the Sikh places of worship. When Guru Gobind Singh evacuated the Fort of Anandpur along with his Sikhs, an Udasi monk, Gurbakhsh Das, undertook to look after the local shrines such as Sis Ganj and Kesgarh Sahib. When after the death of Guru Gobind SiTigh, one Gulab Rai, an impostor, proclaimed himself guru at Anandpur and tried to take possession of the shrines, Gurbakhsh Das thwarted his scheme.

Gurbakhsh Das` successors continued to look after the Anandpur shrines till their management was taken over in recent times by the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. At Nanded where Guru Gobind Singh passed away, Mahant Ishar Das Udasi performed the services at Darbar Guru Gobind Singh (Hazur Sahib) and managed the shrine from 1765 Bk/AD 1708 to 1782 Bk/AD 1725. He was succeeded by his disciple Gopal Das Udasi, who remained in charge of Darbar Hazur Sahib up to 1803 Bk/ AD 1746. Gopal Das was succeeded by his disciple Saran Das Udasi, who served the shrine for a long period of 30 years.

After Saran Das the control of the Darbar passed into the hands of the Sikhs who had, by that time, come from the Punjab in considerable numbers and settled at Nanded. In 1768 Bk/AD 1711 an Udasi sadhu, Sant Gopal Das, popularly known as Goddar Faquir, was appointed granthi at the Harimandar at Amritsar by Bhai Mani Singh, sent to Amritsar as custodian of the shrine by Mata Sundari. Gopal Das was later replaced by another Udasi, Bhai Chahchal Singh, a pious and devoted Sikh. Udasis recruit their followers from all castes and professions.

In their religious practices they differ from the Sikhs, though they revere Guru Nanak and Guru Granth Sahib like all other Sikhs. In their monasteries, Guru Granth Sahib is the scripture that is read. They do not subscribe to the Sikh rites. Their ardas also varies. Ringing of bells (ghanti or gharial}, blowing instruments (narsingha or singhi) form part of their religious service, They worship icons of Guru Nanak and Baba Sri Chand. Their salutations are Vahguru (Glory of the God), Gajo ji Vahguru (Hail aloud the glorious Lord) or Alakh (Hail the Unknowable). The Udasis believe that after gaining matra one can attain param tattva (the highest truth) and achieve mukti (release).

The term matra, lit. a measure or quantity, stands in prosody and grammar for the length of time required to pronounce a short vowel. But the term has acquired an extended meaning in the Udasi tradition, sigiiifying an incantation or sacred text. An Udasi matra is the sacred formula addressed to the disciples. as counsel and advice. There are a considerable number of these matras attributed to Guru Nanak, Baba Sri Chand, Baba Gurditta, Almast and Balu HaSria. But the matras attributed to Sri Chand have special significance for the Udasis and are highly cherished by them. Some of the Udasis wear white while others prefer gerua (ochre) or redcoloured garments.

Those belonging to the Nanga sect remain naked, wearing nothing except a brass chain around their waist. Some wear matted hair and apply ashes over their body. Some wear cord worn around the head, neck and waist. They abstain from alcohol, but not infrequently use bhang (hemp), charas and opium. They practise celibacy. Besides disseminating the word of Guru Nanak, Udasi centres serve as seminaries of Sikh learning. Chelas, i.e. disciples, gather around the head of the monastery who instructs them in Sikh and old classical texts. The heads of these centres travelled with their pupils to places of pilgrimage and participated in debate and discourse.

The Udasi bungas or rest houses around the Harimandar were among the prominent centres of learning. Udasi cloister at Amritsar, Brahm Buta Akhara, ran a Gurmukhi school which attracted a considerable number of pupils. Some Udasi centres also imparted training in Indian system of medicine and physiology. One such seat was the bunga of Pandit Sarup Das Udasi who was a great scholar as well as an authority on Charaka Samhita, the famous treatise on Ayurvecia. In the troubled years of the eighteenth century when Sikhs suffered severe persecution, the Udasi sadhus took charge of their places of worship.

Their control of the holy shrines lasted until the opening decades of the twentieth century when Sikhs through an enactment of the Punjab Legislative Council had the management centralized in the hands of a democratically elected board. The Udasis, however, have their own deras and monasteries spread all over the country. The most important of their centres in the North are Brahm Buta Akhara and Sangalanvala Akhara at Amritsar, Niranjania Akhara at Patiala and the Panchaiti Akhara at Haridvar.

References :

1. Randhir Singh, Bhai, Udasi Siklian di Vithiya. Amritsar, 1959
2. Nara, Ishar Singh, ItihasBaba Sri ChandJI Sahib ate Udasin Sampardai. Amritsar, 1975
3. Macauliffe, Max Arthur, The Sikh Religion : Its Gurus, Sacred Writings and Authors. Oxford, 1909

http://www.thesikhencyclopedia.com/social-institutions/traditional-sikh-schools/udasi

Frankly I do not see many contradictions among web resources. There are actually very few informative sites. What I have observed is that sites will have fewer details, as opposed to contradictory information. Though surely there may be contradictions.

I do not know if there are Udasi members at SPN. Udasi frequently take the name Udasi, for example Sant Ram Udasi.

There have been Udasi web sites but they come and go. These would be ideal sources to find out what Udasi believe about themselves in relation to having a Sikh identity.


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## muddymick (Jul 2, 2013)

Tejwant ji,


> Please express your thoughts and your knowledge about the subject you are asking first as you are its progenitor of the thread, so that we can discuss about it.



I don't know much about the subject at all. Other than they also follow the teachings of the  son of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Once held much more power in the Sikh holy places. Often celibate.
I have read a little on the internet. From these sources http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/movements/Udasis/udasis.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udasi and http://sikhism.about.com/od/glossary/g/Udasi.htm and aso http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/612429/Udasi. I do find it fascinating though!



> Here is how you put it as a starter where it seems that your mind has already been made up which is rather unfortunate.



Quote:
muddymick;186963]Although this may be slightly contentious it is not meant to be inflammatory or disrespectful to anyone.



> I have no idea why is this starter's gun ready in your hand? What's its purpose?



Maybe I am misunderstanding you What do you mean my mind is made up and I have a starters gun in my hand?

I only mentioned contentious and inflammatory due to marginal minorities often being so in most religions!
If you are privy to some information I am not, sorry but I have no hidden agenda as I know so little about this! Hence the request for info.




> Udasis by whom and what is the purpose of your question? Please share your thoughts first.



Sorry I don't know what you mean by Udasi by whom (I thought it was the correct name for a  particular Sect?

Quote:
What is distinct and what is the same for Udasi's and mainstream Sikh's?

Are Udasis considered to be fully part and parcel of the wider Sikh community?



> Once again, please express yourself in details about your queries and what are they based on?



What do you mean? 

How can I be more explicit?

What my queries are based on is lack of knowledge.....sorry I just don't get your question?

Quote:
I ask as the information on the internet is often contradictory and maybe misleading.



> What made you conclude the information is misleading?





> What knowledge do you have about it?



I did not conclude it was misleading which is why I posted information is often contradictory and misleading.

Do you want me to explain how I surmise that the internet is often misleading or contradictory?

I don't have knowledge about it, which is why I ask!



> Please be precise.



I am not sure if you are being serious?


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## muddymick (Jul 2, 2013)

spnadmin ji, 





> I am posting this entry from the Sikh Encyclopedia.



Many thanks


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## Harry Haller (Jul 2, 2013)

out of all the many sects in Sikhism some might say the Udasis are possibly the most Buddhist, coincidence or hidden agenda?


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## muddymick (Jul 2, 2013)

Harry Ji,



> out of all the many sects in Sikhism some might say the Udasis are possibly the most Buddhist, coincidence or hidden agenda?



Probably a bit of both in so much as this ,may explain my initial interest.

But probably neither as me being interested in the Udasi's is likely in part due to an affinity.
That would not be a coincidence but a direct result of my preference! 

Hidden agenda, if it was it wasn't very well hidden....was it? 
Also as I know so little about them I am not sure what that hidden agenda might be.....might you?


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## spnadmin (Jul 2, 2013)

I would be cautious in describing Udasis as most Buddhist. They are most like themselves, Udasis. Over generations,  the Udasi sampardaya has evolved into several orders that do share beliefs, such as reverence for Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji; however, Hindu avatars and statues of Hindu avatars are also part of a distinct religious practice. The article lists many other of the distinctive Udasis practices.  

To get a more accurate sense of the Udasis, one has to collect many of the snapshots that come from different sources and piece all of that together to see what all the orders share that make them Udasis. Then one has to take a look at the differences: for example, some identify as followers of a particular sadhu. In my opinion, the sense the muddymick ji got of "contradictions" is really the result of different sources focusing on a narrow range of the Udasis tradition, and ignoring other parts of it. These are "omissions" that look like contradictions. To get the complete picture one has to take a look at patterns of beliefs and worship that stem from lineages and are very specific to followers of a particular baba, sant, or sadhu. This clearly evolved under the broader umbrella called "Udasi."


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 2, 2013)

Muddymick ji,

Guru Fateh.

Let me start from the bottom.



> I am not sure if you are being serious?



You bet, I am dead serious. That is why I ask questions rather than getting into assumptions about others and the subjects.



> I did not conclude it was misleading which is why I posted information is often contradictory and misleading.
> 
> Do you want me to explain how I surmise that the internet is often misleading or contradictory?



That is a bit confusing because we are on the internet where we are interacting, hence your statement may also include the information given on this site by either including yourself and myself is often misleading.

Is that your view?



> I don't have knowledge about it, which is why I ask!



Please be aware that you are asking this on the internet which  you claim is often contradictory.



> I don't know much about the subject at all. Other than they also follow the teachings of the  son of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Once held much more power in the Sikh holy places. Often celibate.



Please research and read about Guru Nanak's four Udasis in which he went all over from East, West, North, South to share his idea based way of  life and about the mals of the rituals among other things. Guru Nanak was not celibate.

Let's start from there and then  if I am not mistaken, you are not talking about the Udasis but the Udasi movement. Does that sound right?

They are two distinct things.



> I have read a little on the internet. From these sources http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/movements/Udasis/udasis.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udasi and http://sikhism.about.com/od/glossary/g/Udasi.htm and aso http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/612429/Udasi. I do find it fascinating though!



Good for you. Knowledge attained can be rejected or accepted only after going through several sources. Wiki is my least favourite because it can be edited by anyone and as you said, the whole information can also be often misleading.



> I only mentioned contentious and inflammatory due to marginal minorities often being so in most religions!



Contentious and inflammatory to whom? Can you please elaborate that?



> If you are privy to some information I am not, sorry but I have no hidden agenda as I know so little about this! Hence the request for info.



I never said you did. I just concluded from what you wrote as I  asked you above.



> Sorry I don't know what you mean by Udasi by whom (I thought it was the correct name for a  particular Sect?



I have already mentioned above how it all started. You are just getting the middle part of it, hence lies the confusion.

So, please read about Guru Nanak's Udasis first and if you have any questions, do not hesitate to ask and then we can move on to the movement if you wish.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## muddymick (Jul 2, 2013)

spnadmin ji,

I think you are right I was clumsy in my language when I said contradictions!

I think a more applicable turn of phrase may have been ...from my limited experience the various explanations of what constitutes the Udasi's beliefs and practices to be would appear to vary in focus from source to source.


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## spnadmin (Jul 2, 2013)

They do. And when you put all the sources together you can find the common core and then see how the orders form spokes around the hub. Early in their history, the Udasi experience appears to be defined by a founder - a "Das." This is apparent almost from the very beginning. Then as the tradition evolves some very interesting things develop.


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## muddymick (Jul 2, 2013)

Tejwant Ji





> That is a bit confusing because we are on the internet where we are interacting, hence your statement may also include the information given on this site by either including yourself and myself is often misleading.



I will qualify this for you no problem!
I find many articles that are on the internet and written about religious groups to be very misleading.
I was not  referring to our interchange here.



> Please be aware that you are asking this on the internet which you claim is often contradictory.



as per my previous line this statement is negated.



> Please research and read about Guru Nanak's four Udasis in which he went all over from East, West, North, South to share his idea based way of life and about the mals of the rituals among other things. Guru Nanak was not celibate.



I will at some time however this is not what I was referring to.



> Let's start from there and then if I am not mistaken, you are not talking about the Udasis but the Udasi movement. Does that sound right?



this is obviously a rhetorical question



> They are two distinct things.



This does not need qualification as you have now told me above.



> Contentious and inflammatory to whom? Can you please elaborate that?



Contentious and inflammatory to mainstream society especially for some who skirt the edges of what is acceptable in more modern secular and materialistic societies.

Thank you


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## jasbirkaleka (Jul 3, 2013)

Why such desperation to prove that Udasis are Sikhs when certainly they are not. 
Could any one explain why Guru Nanak Devji did not confer the Gadi on Sri Chand.:angryyoungsingh:


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## muddymick (Jul 3, 2013)

Jasbirkaleka ji,



> Why such desperation to prove that Udasis are Sikhs



I have no compunction to prove Udasis are Sikhs either desperately or otherwise!



> when certainly they are not.



As I have already stated I was looking for information regarding them. As they are normally called Sikhs in the literature regarding them I accepted such a label. If that is from my ignorance, I accept the criticism.



> Could any one explain why Guru Nanak Devji did not confer the Gadi on Sri Chand.



No I could not!

 As you are obviously much more knowledgeable on the matter could you please either instruct me regarding this or failing that give me some links so I will not repeat my mistakes?

Thank You


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## spnadmin (Jul 3, 2013)

who 





jasbirkaleka said:


> Why such desperation to prove that Udasis are Sikhs when certainly they are not.
> Could any one explain why Guru Nanak Devji did not confer the Gadi on Sri Chand.:angryyoungsingh:



Just to add a different slant on the issue. The Udasi themselves do not consider themselves Sikhs in every instance. It really depends on the order within the samparda.

Having said that, some Udasi certainly did consider themselves Sikhs all the way through to 1925 and the installation of the Sikh Rehat Maryada.

Between 1883 and 1924, the movement away from vedic traditions and toward plain guidance from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji put Udasi into conflict with the emerging Singhsabha movement. Before Singhsabha split into two camps, Amritsar and Lahore, Nihangs, who were part of the movement to drive Udasi mahants from positions of power, (and who also have their own rehat and 3 scriptures not 1) did not consider Udasi Sikhs. After the division and the formation of the post-1925 version of the SGPC, events demonstrated that Udasi would not and could never unite with either group. 

Who is a Sikh? It is not so easy a task to decide that when considering  among the many different sanatan orders. Difficult particularly when many of them dispute the legitimacy of the Sikh Rehat Maryada, going as far as to state that the document was a corrupting influence, imposed by the British, to separate Sikhs from their puratan heritage. Therefore using the SRM to decide who is a Sikh falls on deaf ears on the puratan side.

Do I believe that? No! I do think we are discussing the best way to walk through a mine field. 

Forgive me for glossing over all of the particulars of history that bring us post 1883 to where we are today. Mention of the Udasi is guarantee to trigger a lot of passion. It is not even important to debate their Sikh identity in my opinion because they did lose a fair fight in courts of law and fell from an exalted position. 

I agree with one thing. The entire story cannot be understood by reading a few Internet pages.


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## muddymick (Jul 3, 2013)

spnadmin ji, 
thanks for the info. I have no intention of getting into any debate regarding who can or cannot call themselves Sikhs. I am not a Sikh and therefore to some extent it is non of my business! Also I don't have enough information, or knowledge on this matter.
my reasons for asking was pure and simple interest, I also looked at the Nihangs (but there is much more on them available on the internet) and other sub-groups once, sometime or loosely associated with the mainstream Sikh identity. 

it all gives me food for thought and avenues of investigation. Many thanks!


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## spnadmin (Jul 3, 2013)

muddymick said:


> spnadmin ji,
> thanks for the info. I have no intention of getting into any debate regarding who can or cannot call themselves Sikhs. I am not a Sikh and therefore to some extent it is non of my business! Also I don't have enough information, or knowledge on this matter.
> my reasons for asking was pure and simple interest, I also looked at the Nihangs (but there is much more on them available on the internet) and other sub-groups once, sometime or loosely associated with the mainstream Sikh identity.
> 
> it all gives me food for thought and avenues of investigation. Many thanks!



This is a very complicated topic and one that marks over 100 years of conflict and even bloodshed with the panth. It spills over into the diaspora when decisions are made about appointments to faculty positions  of Sikh History and Sikh Studies at the largest universities. It's shadow hangs over political divisions and disputes within Punjab. The political machinery at the state and local level run rampant over religious expression in part because of this aspect of the past. Almost any point of controversy is historically interesting and devastating. Passion is inevitable.


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## muddymick (Jul 3, 2013)

spnadmin ji,



> Almost any point of controversy is historically interesting and devastating. Passion is inevitable.



Most true!
I am fully aware of the shattering effects of division and dispute within (for me it has been Sangha, but that is just a word) panth.

I have absolutely no intention of throwing fuel on the issue.
I will admit to being intrigued by the history and development of the panth and of course I include in that investigation Sanatans etc.
(please don't think my inclusion in research means I suggest who is or is not of the panth)

That said I have no intention of  inflaming passions on this and if I inadvertently blunder I am happy to be guided by the more knowledgeable. 

Thank you

:interestedsingh:


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