# Should We Serve Alcohol As Guru Ka Langar?



## Gurukameet (Jun 14, 2011)

Should we serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Lanagar?


For many celebration is a time of joy , when a moment comes in a family,  when there is finally a engagement , wedding, when there is finally a child born.  These are times of joy and happiness,  and for most people we mark these occasions with seeking blessing from the  Sri Guru Granth Sahib,  we not only seek blessings as a family,  but use this opportunity to share with the community our joy.  For some in the community. We too have attended shared there joys at weddings and sadness in funerals.  So get together as a community.  We get together and share langar food,  it is an opportunity to meet up old friends to meet with relatives and see how children have grown.
We do this in a communal setting, Gurdwara,  which means the house where the Guru resides.  As we enter the Gurdwara we remove our shoes and socks  why?  Because we do not want to miss any  opportunity of not being absorbed in the vibrations of shabads, we absorb the delights of Guru’s keertan we all our beings.   We enter and bow to our Guru ,  why, because we seek Guru Jees blessing.   We sit and listen to keertan, and delight in being given blessings by the Gani jees or do we?  


Then we stand in the Ardass and are given the blessings of all the 11 Gurus and listen to the instructions of Guru Jee and are given Hukam Nam Guru Jee is all knowing and without fail perceptive.  It is all a wonderful experience to be topped with further delights of purshad and delicious food in the langar hall.  Well not if you are expected to go the hall next door where you will be given alcohol and meat.

This has happened and still happens, and why is it wrong?  


First of all,  you are graciously being given blessings, you have experienced the vibrations of Guru Shahads you feel blissful.   A particular shabad was played at a programme my mind is full of celebrations, that is important ‘Man Viddiyan’  (apologises I cannot find the full shabad).  My mind is congraluted, my mind that houses the 8th gate, that mind which is so important to us that we protect it constantly.  That mind which  will carry us across to the other side.   The mind which is so important in our lives in how we choose to live our life.  Oh dears of the beloved, is it not enough to have this blessing?


Is it not just fulfilling to have these precious moments?


Why dear beloved, do we then after wards have to consume alcohol? To pollute this gracious mind that we have.  To many this is the experience, for many, the Gurdwara is the necessary ritual that needs to be done, before the party and fun begins.  Where have we come and gone in Sikhi that we have allowed our children to be empty vessels that need fuel from alcohol, the leaders have failed us dramatically for this to be allowed and continued. The parents that toiled so hard like slaves in this country, have no happiness in there lifes that they feel the need to escape with alcohol, and to bless the community with poison of the mind.  As I sat in the hall, next to the Gurdwara, where Guru Ka Langar was served with alcohol and meat,  I listened to an old relative I had not seen for years,  I gave her my condolences as her brother in law had died of alcohol abuse, she was not bothered,  she said it was self inflicted as he had made her sisters and children life’s a misery as an alcoholic.   This is very poison that we feed to the Sadh Sangat ?

‘Man Vidhidyan’  no these two things are separate and they should be kept separate.  The bliss in the mind with Gurus Shabad,  is not the same bliss you experience with alcohol, alcohol causes violence, causes deaths while driving,  causes families to break up, keeps doctors in jobs all night with stitching people up, a job they don’t relish.  This is not the blessing that our Gurus would give us, so should we be celebrating in this style?


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## spnadmin (Jun 14, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*



> As I sat in the hall, next to the Gurdwara, where Guru Ka Langar was served with alcohol and meat,



If what you describe was a wedding celebration, in a hall next to the Gurdwara set aside for social occasions, then you were not at Guru Ka Langar. You were at a wedding party. If there were no alcohol or meat, it would still be a party, not Guru Ka Langar.


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## Gurukameet (Jun 14, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

It was not a wedding party, but a programme, the programme listed on the card,  Guru Ka Langar would be served,  which it was at the hall next door.


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## spnadmin (Jun 14, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

Ok We need that clarification. I am however suspicious that be it a programme, one can simply call something Guru ka Langar. Le t's see what the responses are like.


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## Gurukameet (Jun 14, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

Why are you suspicious?  It was a kurmai,  to be more precise.


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## Gurukameet (Jun 14, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

Kuramai is pre-engagement programme from the grooms side, where the bride family come with fruits etc..at the Gurdwara.

For my clarification?  Spnadmin you believe it is acceptable to have meat and alcohol served as Guru Ka Langar??


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 14, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

Dear Gurukameet Ji

I respect the fact you practise abstinence and are a vegatarian. 
If the party was in a separate hall and follows on from the Holy Service that's fairly normal of panjabi culture .If a man drinks one or two beers with his meal on a special occasion thats not immoral is it?But to judge others might not be even amoral. Some might drink alot but be honest,others might abstain but be less honest. Todays drinker might be an abstainer tommorow and vice versa. 
ps I love the way Admin are suspicous of misleading statements and rightly so!


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## Gurukameet (Jun 14, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

OK,  you are saying that to serve alcohol as Guru ka Langar is perfectly normal and not misleading because it is part of Punjabi culture??  

I am a bit surprised to be honest.  I think it is unlikely that SPN is supported by Guinness, but I may be wrong.

This issue I was trying to raise is it acceptable to serve alcohol as Guru Ka langar?  The consensus here is that it is?

As Langar is given to everyone, regardless of gender and caste, I presume it would be acceptable as female to drink as well?  But that's not part of Punjabi culture.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 14, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

Dear Gurukameet Ji

No that's not what I said ,what I meant to say, sorry if it was not clear, is if it is in a separate Hall and after the Gurdwara Service ,then it should not be referred to as "Guru Ka Langar" .
Be patient there is no consensus yet ,just me trying to discuss it with you,to me even the title of this thread is misleading ,because what you have issue with is not celebrating but indulgence.


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## Ishna (Jun 14, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

What is "Guru Ka Langar"?

Wikipedia:  *Langar* (Punjabi: ਲੰਗਰ, Hindi: लंगर) is the term used in the Sikh religion for free food, served in a Gurdwara.

I'm a little short on time but I'd love to get some better sources.

They might have called it Guru Ka Langar on the card, but that doesn't make it Guru Ka Langar.  I think by the very presence of meat and alcohol, and that it wasn't held at the Gurdwara automatically disqualifies it as Guru Ka Langar.

Unfortunately the number of people who listen, learn, believe and act accordingly are few.  Most people just want to have a good time, and don't take the time or give attention to the details and dare I say, the "correct" way of doing things.  I will put myself out there and say the people who held the party, by calling the food Guru Ka Langar, are misguided.

If they want to party with meat and alcohol that's their porogative and I will not pass judgement on them for it.  But misappropriating an important concept like Guru Ka Langar is damaging to the youth and community as a whole.


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## Admin (Jun 14, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*



> Kuramai is pre-engagement programme from the grooms side, where the bride family come with fruits etc..at the Gurdwara.
> 
> For my clarification?  Spnadmin you believe it is acceptable to have meat and alcohol served as Guru Ka Langar??


*In reply to your question, spnadmin in its first reply clearly stated SPN's stand on the issue and this is just to reconfirm: Serving alcohol/liquor/beer in any event and calling it "Guru Ka Langar" is not appropriate and most likely reflects an ignorance or a mischief on the part of the organizer of the event, hence the suspicion.
* 


			
				spnadmin said:
			
		

> Ok We need that clarification. I am however suspicious that be it a program, one can simply call something Guru ka Langar. Let's see what  the responses are like.


I think you interpreted the above comment all wrong, spnadmin is suspicious as to the motive behind calling a event or a programme "Guru Ka Langar" not that it is ok to call any event/program serving alcohol "Guru Ka Langar".

And then at the same time, SPN members are entitled to their own opinions. But this does not under any circumstances mean SPN supports their views. 

As spnadmin said "Let's see what  the responses are like." this does not mean to endorse any particular point of view.

I hope this clears some of the confusion caused by the ambiguity in the first post.

Gurfateh!


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## spnadmin (Jun 14, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

Aman ji That was exactly my point as you put it 100 percent. Thank you. I was trying to get to the bottom of the event. I was not making a declaration but asking how the event became title Guru Ka Langar in the first place when none of the circumstances seemed to fit.  

For example, may I hold a party at a local park, near a gurdwara, and invite everyone. Serve veg and no alcohol and call it Guru ka Langar?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 14, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

Each and Every SIKH ....is instructed to give a LOUD HAIL....Guru Ka Langgar Tyaar Hai..Snagat is welcome to JOIN IN.  This was the Practice...sadly no longer in common as SIKHS have become MORE "malik Bhago" ( Bloo.d oozing form his 36 food spread feast)..and LESS "Bhai LALO" ( milk oozing out of crude roti made from cheap baajra seeds)
GURU NANAK ALWAYS chose to stay with and eat form Bhai LALOs Langgar...BUT MOST SIKHS today wont even take a second look at a Bhai lalo type of langgar of plain Daal roti (still a THOUSAND times better than the one GURU Nnanak Ji ate..BUT PLAIN and TASTELESS to US..His SIKHS !! How times have changed ??? )

Anyway I digress.. What I menat to stress is that EACH SIKH HOME is supposed to be a GURU KA LANGGAR..simply to show that its HIS GIFT...the Christians have ONE DAY..of THANKSGIVING...to celebrate His GIFT of FOOD..Guru nanak ji taught us SIKHS to have this THANKSGIVING 3 times a DAY !!  GURU KA LANGGAR !!  Food to SHARE with the NEEDY....as time went by..SIKHS have delegated this RESPONSIBILITY to the Cllective..GURDWARA....so Gurdwaras took over this JOB of Providing Guru Ka Langgar 24/7.....time went by..even Giurdwaras stopped....and ONLY a few carry on the 24/7 Guru ka Langgar Concept...
Time went by..SIKHS...got BORED with SEWA..and began to CATER....FARMOUT the cooking/distribution....no more Honest Labour..no more sewa..no more any RELIGIOUS FEELINGS..just plain.."get it over with mentality....feed the masses..and get it over with..lets go back to making more money..so next time we can CATER more variety..and get more Balleh balleh !!..EVEN GURDWARAS fell into this trap...recently in Malaysia a GURDWARA ran a MEDIA Campaign...for a "Guru ka Langgar with 500 dishes on the menu...a Guru ka Langgar with the BIGGEST Laddoo..Biggest Pratha...Largest Chapattii..etc etc to enter the Guiness Book of RECORDS !! The Parbhandaks (mostly clean shaven who dont know a word of Gurbani and can harldy speak Punjabi etc etc)..are still at IT....
 Now a days.."wise" Sikhs will Call ahead to the various Gurdwaras in town..."SO WHAT dishes are you having in your Gurdwara Guru ka Langgar today..Ji ?? And who attends what Gurdwara depends on the FOOD/DISHES !! People TWITTER others..This Gurdwara is just plain daal roti..avoid it..go to that Gurdwara..kheer..yoghurt..jalebis..etc etc..SANT BABAS take out Media ads..Jalebi Langgar...Barfi langgar..!!! My Gurdwara..Chinese Food..Mine..South Indian cuisine...that one mughal Dishes..karrahi paneer..etc etc...are NORMAL SIKH CONVERSATIONS...


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 14, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*



> Well not if you are expected to go the hall next door where you will be given alcohol and meat.
> This has happened and still happens, and why is it wrong?



If there is a hall serving alcohol, then the whole entering Gurudwara, listening to Kirtan part may not happen at all!



> Why dear beloved, do we then after wards have to consume alcohol?



Alcohol helps us in shedding inhibitions and celebrating to the max. Ya I may be a minor addict.



> Where have we come and gone in Sikhi that we have allowed our children to be empty vessels that need fuel from alcohol, the leaders have failed us dramatically for this to be allowed and continued.



When kid is less than 10 years of age, he is too young to learn 'mature' concepts of Sikhi. When he is 10-17 oh he has to top in his class and become entrance test cracker. 18-23 strive hard in university and get best job. 24+ and with job, I don't have time for Paath or Gurudwara, let me enjoy drink with friends.



> I gave her my condolences as her brother in law had died of alcohol abuse, she was not bothered, she said it was self inflicted as he had made her sisters and children life’s a misery as an alcoholic. This is very poison that we feed to the Sadh Sangat ?



Thousands of people die all the time and we think we are going to live forever. There is no fear of death and no fear of addiction, wasting your life away by erasing your existence in those moments of indulgence.



> This is not the blessing that our Gurus would give us, so should we be celebrating in this style?



Sadly most of the habits of a person are based on the company he keeps. If the society is falling from grace, they would rather take everyone along. That is why we have always stressed the importance of Sangat.

One beer loving person in Gursikh sangat can't do anything. But one teetotaler in drinking company falls most of the time.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji ki Fateh ji


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 14, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*



spnadmin said:


> Aman ji That was exactly my point as you put it 100 percent. Thank you. I was trying to get to the bottom of the event. I was not making a declaration but asking how the event became title Guru Ka Langar in the first place when none of the circumstances seemed to fit.
> 
> For example, may I hold a party at a local park, near a gurdwara, and invite everyone. Serve veg and no alcohol and call it Guru ka Langar?



YOU MAY..and you can call it Guur Ka Langgar IF it fulfills the criteria...HONEST LABOUR...SEWA..RELIGIOUS FERVOUR...Kirt karo..Waand Chhako..Naam jappo...The "finaces" must come from KIRT.....the food is prepared..served..as a SEWA..with Love..and respect...and equality...without distinction..and "naam Jappo" aspect is by example..and voluntary...effort be made that most feel that way (Thanksgiving mood).
Any and all FOOD as allowed to a SIKH (srm)..and financed from ones KIRT honest labour, prepared with genuine love sewa in mind..CAN BE TERMED GURU KA LANGGAR. The "MENU" is not a criteria to judge.

2. AFTER having virtually forced all "Gurdwaras" to have Vegetarian food under Guru Ka Langgar label...via arguments that its because everyone and sundry comes to Gurdwara and as such food served must cater to all..even when the SRM clearly makes a provision for NON-HALLAL as ALLOWED...
Some over zealous ones among us are carrying over that "closed concept" over to even PICNICS..birthday parties..wedding parties etc..which are NOT "religious" and to which the people invited are NOT the "Gurdwara Sangat"......and SGGS is NOT Parkash or present.

3. Meat is ALLOWED as long as its NOT "Hallal"..BUT ALCOHOL in nay forma nd substance is STRICTLY PROHIBITED and is one of the KUREHITS.
Over zealous Sikhs have LUMPED Alcohol and "meat" together...which is NOT the RIGHT WAY.....even if argued that wheres theres "meat theres alcohol !! its NOT always the case...a it will be *BEST* if BOTH meat and alcohol are avoided..BUT its not right to lump them both in the same basket. Forcing the issue leads to talibanism accusations.


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## spnadmin (Jun 14, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

Gyani ji

This is the crux of the answer for me. Others may disagree. Thanks so much 





> Some over zealous ones among us are carrying over that "closed concept" over to even PICNICS..birthday parties..wedding parties etc..which are NOT "religious" and to which the people invited are NOT the "Gurdwara Sangat"......and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is NOT Parkash or present.


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## Gurukameet (Jun 15, 2011)

The overall growing consensus in UK is that it is wrong to serve alcohol and meat in Gurdwara premises, whether there is Guru Granth Sahib is  there or not as the sangat has brought the premises and it is anti-Sikh to serve alcohol.  I appreciate some administrators of SPN  may disagree and feel it should be allowed, in a separate hall, but these people are a growing minority.  *Sikhi consciousness is growing  and I hope it will continue to grow,* so that all the other rubbish serving in Gurdwara is kept to a minimum. 

 As Sikhs we should eat little and sleep little.

There comes a time when as individuals we should take steps to ensure that others are not mislead and misguided, by authorities.  I will write a very polite letter to the Gurdwara and request that they stop serving alcohol in Gurdwara premises and explain in detail why it is wrong.    Gainis/authorities no longer hold knowledge on Sikhi as knowledge is so widely available and people gratefully are learning.   

Guru Ka Langar sometimes in my opinion manifested itself at church gatherings or local community groups where people of all colours, castes and religion share very simple food, without the risk of disease that over indulgence in rich foods brings,  and many Gurdwaras are guilty of this.  I agree.


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## Archived_member14 (Jun 15, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

Spnadmin ji,




spnadmin said:


> Gyani ji
> 
> This is the crux of the answer for me. Others may disagree. Thanks so much
> 
> ...



Are you saying that it is OK to serve meat in the Gurdwara? Does it not make a difference to you if this discourages Sikhs who are vegetarians and also Namdharis, Radha Soamis, Hindus and Jains who otherwise like to come to the Gurdwara, from coming as often as they like? And if the meat served is non-halal, would this not also put Muslims off? 

I believe that limiting the menu to vegetarian food only is good and practical in every way.


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## Ishna (Jun 15, 2011)

Gurukameet said:


> Guru Ka Langar sometimes in my opinion manifested itself at church gatherings or local community groups where people of all colours, castes and religion share very simple food, without the risk of disease that over indulgence in rich foods brings,  and many Gurdwaras are guilty of this.  I agree.



When I've been at church gatherings the fare has been sugary biscuits, or sugary cakes and things.  Community groups I've been to much of the same, if not moreso!

I've only had simple langar, we usually have roti, daal and sabhji (don't know how to spell it... spiced vegetables) with yoghurt which has those cute little crispy ball things in it (I'm white so they give me lots of yoghurt, hahaha else I get a runny nose!), and plain salad.  There's usually kheer.

I've heard people talk about their turn to do langar is coming up and they're going to get a chef to do the cooking, or have it catered.  But I like the langar when the sangat does it, when the aunties come up and ask you to make sure you come on the weekend and help rinse, chop and cook.  Always tastes better and it really does wonders for the soul getting together in the kitchen and cooking.  I just wish my sangat would jaap something while working.  At Sikh camp, when it was our teams turn to do langar seva, we would jaap "satnam waheguru" for most of the time and it gets delightfully hypnotic.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 15, 2011)

Dear Confused Ji

I agree cooking meat would put off vegatarians,and the opposite does not really apply so better leave things as they are.

(No disrespect to Giani Ji though)


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## findingmyway (Jun 15, 2011)

> I believe that limiting the menu to vegetarian food only is good and practical in every way.


It is practical and all inculsive which is why langar in Gurdwara was made vegetarian. However, there is no religious requirement for a vegetarian diet. This has been discussed extensively on several other threads, namely 'Only Fools Wrangle Over Flesh'.

Alcohol is wrong and not allowed for Sikhs. This has also been discussed on several threads. However, the question arises as to how much this can be enforced in private functions? Will rules and force work or is it better to educate and hope people choose to change?

Gurukameet ji,
Your original post raises more questions for me than provide answers. The obvious answer to the thread title is NO but life isn't so simple!
1) What can be called Guru Ka Langar? Although Gyani ji says every meal should be langar, when for many the feeling is not there then should it still be called langar?
2) Is there an objection to partying or to associating that partying with a Gurdwara service beforehand?
3) Should rules of conduct be different on Gurdwara property vs elsewhere?
4) Is enough being done to educate Sikhs in a non-judgmental way?


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 15, 2011)

Dear Spners and findingmywaay Ji

What is wrong with the occasional *apéritifswordfight*
In the last two weeks ,I have noticed we have a hardcore of prolific posters here ,very good they are too! but where are all those online readers ,400 or so ,please join in Good Sikhs. I'm new too, so jump in ,test the water you might actually like it.
This is a call to action .( admin said they want to see responses) so let us all reason out these issues, the more views there are on a topic,the less influence our personal prejudices can impact upon it!welcomemundain advance!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

The position of SIKHI/Gurmatt is very clear and unambigious..as per the teachings of SGGS.

1. DIET and dietary "restrictions". methods of preparation, choice of  ingredients etc etc ALL of which are very common to most religions are  NOT at all discussed in GURBANI. Even in Sikh Rehat maryada, the ONLY  thing that is DETAILED as to how to prepare, what ingredients to use and  how to serve it etc etc..is Karrah parshaad DEGH which is *MANDATORY* in  THE P*PRESENCE of SGGS and At ALL Ocassions where SGGS is  parkashed/ceremonies requiring presence of SGGS where a ANAND SAHIB is  read, ARDASS performed and Hukmanmah taken.* 

*HERE in spite of such clear and unambigous instructions..SIKHS in  their self serving interests have taken to serve things like Bananas,  oranges, apples, laddoos, commercially manufactured sweets, jalebis,  barfis,Riorriaes, badaams, patashas (sukka parshaad),**    acked Parshaad etc etc etc as "PARSHAAD" and which is Patently WRONG and Ultravires the SRM.*  Several Gurdwaras and the NANAKSAREE THAATHS do this on a PERMANENT  BASIS..that is NO Karrah parshaad is EVER prepared, brought in as Ardass  Kirpan Bhet and distributed EVER. A Clear VIOLATION of the SRM...yet  most SIKHS have accepted thsi lying down !! No one ever rasied an  objection.
GURBANI also MENTIONS this SACRED Parshaad made up of three -atta-ghee-sugar as Pavittar food...

2. The SRM and GURBANI as well also clearly not only discourages....it  OPENLY CONDEMNS in the strongest terms the consumption of ALCOHOL and  other INTOXICATING SUBSTANCES. The SRM lists this as One of the FOUR  MAJOR KUREHITS....which means ones DISCIPLINE as a SIKH is BROKEN andin  TATTERS if one imbibes of ALCOHOL...yet surprisingly MOST SIKHS...seldom  if ever..open their mouths about this except to"DRINK"..and drink they  do..like fish and so unashamedly...

3. Even MORE surprising is the TOTAL SILENCE of these Sant babas  Parcharaks and dholkian chhanneh kuttann wallehs about ALCOHOL....even  if the mention it..its half heartedly...none of the DERAS have ever run a  ANTI-ALCOHOL Campaign...becasue IF they do..they are going to annoy a  lot of people...The Radha Soamis to their credit hold alcohol in very  bad taste..and their Babas condemn it almost as mcuh as SGGS does !!  even though SGGS is NOT their GURU but OURS.Namdharees also do the  same...and SGGS is also NOT their Guru...

4. Many of my Muslim friends often jokingly say..Mr Singh..God threw two things on the *RUBBISH HEAP*....Meat  and Alcohol...and looks like the Muslims grabbed the MEAT..and the  SIKHS took back Alcohol...and the way Muslims consume MEAT..mirrors the  way SIKHS consume Alcohol !!.....and Now just as SIKHS are increasingly  taking to MEAT..so are Muslims increasingly falling deeply in Love with  ALCOHOL...

5. One section of SIKHS have always been LOVERS of Intoxicating DRUGS  like Bhang, and these occupy a Romantic hero position in Sikhs..these  are the NIHUNGS....an entire section of people romantically termed saint  Soldiers..Knights of God..etc etc and in their GURDWARAS..MEAT is also  common. ...In fact JHATKA is mostly a NIHUNG tradition.

6. Most SIKHS..especially the sant babas and Mahapurshs keep DEAFENINGLY  SILENT on the DAILY RITUAL of GOAT SLAUGHTER/JHATKA in PUBLIC VIEW and  the BLOO.D tilak etc applied to the Weapons in the presence of SGGS and  to SGGS in the TAKHAT HAZOOR SAHIB - One of the Five Highest TAKHATS  !!!!!!!! the SILENCE among us is EMBARASSING !!! Shows our HYPOCRACY  because at another Major TAKHAT the jathedar ( also a darling of the  SANT babas, dera, taksaals, Mahapurashs etc etc) is a BIGAMIST whose  reason for marrying more than once is to emulate Guru Gobind Singh Ji !!

7 Among us SIKHS there is a grwoing trend to TARGET small weak  targets...in Amritsar the "satikaar" sikhs targetted, cornered the  SHOPKEEPER cum owner of a Printing/bookseller and blackend his face and  beat him up inside a room at Darbar sahib...=== his offense..he was  selling SGGS to anyone who came to buy...This was clearly a "BUINESS"  decision as SELLING SGGS is big business !! Here and there individuals  who are NOT that BIG are targetted off and ON...BUT those Big babs that  have Hukmnamahs issued by Akal takhat no less are left well alone..that  is POLITICS in action...and HYPOCRACY exposed. What SIKHS must do is be  FAIR and SQUARE..to all...big and small..equally. 

8. Some measures are COUNTER PRODUCTIVE..when the WRONG ISSUE is  addressed. Look at PUNJAB...99.9% of the WEDDING ATTENDEES go straight  to the Marriage Palace..and 0.01% actually go to the GURDWARA for the  Lavaan !! WHAT measures are being taken to STOP this trend...a Hukmnamah  was issued to STOP the SGGS from being taken to Marriage Palaces....NOW  the GURU is ABSENT but it didnt change one IOTA..the Bad habits of his  SIKHS....the issue to be tackled was to STOP the Bad Habit among the  SIKHS...instead the issue was SIDE TRACKED to "remove the GURU" to  respect HIM !! Now the GURU is highly respected but almost alone with NO  SIKHS at Lavaan ceremony which is HASTILY DONE and completed as fast as  possible...TO ME..that is the worst frm of DISRESPECT !! IN Contrast in  MALAYSIA...99.9% of the Anand Karaj GUESTS, Janj etc etc ALL ATTEND  GURDWARA SAHIB....the Darbar is full to CAPACITY as BOTH sides..Bride's  as wella s Bridegroom's attend in FULL. Then the GROOM side have another  Thanksgiving diwan in the GURDWARA at their home town......the  meat-alcohol drama takes place in a separate HALL as a WEDDING  DINNER/BHANGRA dancing etc.... This used to take place in RENTED HALLS  belonging to the CHURCHES nearby...or Chinese halls etc etc..over time  SIKHS thought why NOT make our own Halls os SIKH MONEY remains in SIKH  hands...as such many GURDWARAS built huge Halls for such functions and  now most Sikh Wedding Dinners take place in such halls...and the Million  Dollar question is..IF we FORCE SIKHS to VACATE SUCH HALLS...without  stopping their INDIVIDUAL BAD HABITS of eating meat/consuming ALCOHOL  and BHANGRA filthy songs on DJ...etc etc...what will really happen is  the Marriage palace phenomenon in Punjab...the 99.9% Gurdwara attending  'sangat" may decide to give the Lavaan a MISS and attend the Dinner cum  show ONLY at a Hall owned by other Races and help to divert sikh money  away from the Gurdwaras...
HOSH and NOT JOSH is the wya to go..but i see JOSH more than HOSH...as  for me..I only attend the Gurdwara and never the dinner bhangra etc as i  find it distastefull...that is the way more sikhs should be persuaded  to go...rather than use strong arm tactics on GURDWARAS !!

Final Line..Calling ALCOHOL "Guru ka langgar" is like telling  a Muslim  Pork.ham is "Hallal"...ha ha..nothing more foolish than that...


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## spnadmin (Jun 15, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

Confused ji

*No I was not saying*


> ..it is OK to serve meat in the Gurdwara?



This has already been decided by Guru Angad and is reflected in the SRM.



> Does it not make a difference to you if this discourages Sikhs who are vegetarians and also Namdharis, Radha Soamis, Hindus and Jains who otherwise like to come to the Gurdwara, from coming as often as they like? And if the meat served is non-halal, would this not also put Muslims off?



I have no idea why my remarks have been so difficult to decipher by some forum members, other than perhaps their passion and a certain amount of "holier than thou-ism" has created a filter for reading my comments, and the raw words are not getting through.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

Beadbi ...satikaar...etc are all Catch words..empty if devoid of perosnal commitment...
I once had a very good close friend..a Granthi at the Gurdwara..he was passionate to the extent of being a bore..abut the SGGS being HOT while in the normal sachkhand/sukhsan room. So he persuaded some ladies and others to spend some money and install air conditions in the sukhasan room....But once I was staying over the weekend at his Gurdwara and the Power went off. His perosnal air con was also out..so he was outside waving a fan to cool himself...I grabbed the opportunity !! Straightaway I asked him..Gyani Ji..what about our GURU JI..sleeping in that HOT ROOM...are you going to sit beside Guru ji and FAN HIM ?? His look proved to me that he is like majority of such "beadbi/satikaar" fellows...NO COMMITMENT..just HOLLOW TALKING..no action types.

2. The Genuione way to build up satikaar/stop beadbi is NOT hullarrbazee, demonstrations loud manner, rowdism, police action, spilled bloo.d etc etc..GUIDANCE..go to the place every time...stand and distribute pamphlets, show an EXAMPLE of Sikh TOLERANCE..PYAAR..and EDUCATE the sikh public...show you are COMITTED and can PERSEVERE..for YEARS if need be..become VOTERS, becoem members of that SANGAT...to CHANGE the people..the SANGAT from WITHIN....NOT Barge IN, shouting like hooligans..and remove the GURU..and claim victory..or browbeat some Gurdawra Pardhaan and shout Boleh so Nihal..thats a COWARDLY ACT...totally unbecoming of SIKHS, give us a bad image bad publicity, attach labels like hooligans talibans etc to us...and totally OUT of SYNC with Gurbani and SGGS.


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## findingmyway (Jun 15, 2011)

Sinner Singh said:


> Dear Spners and findingmywaay Ji
> 
> What is wrong with the occasional *apéritifswordfight*
> In the last two weeks ,I have noticed we have a hardcore of prolific posters here ,very good they are too! but where are all those online readers ,400 or so ,please join in Good Sikhs. I'm new too, so jump in ,test the water you might actually like it.
> This is a call to action .( admin said they want to see responses) so let us all reason out these issues, the more views there are on a topic,the less influence our personal prejudices can impact upon it!welcomemundain advance!



What is right about alcohol? You may think that you can control it but science tells us the opposute-it controls you (even if there is no addiction). Additionally Gurbani is very clear on this point. Alcohol cannot help your spirituality by any stretch of the imagination (in fact it does the opposite) and that is the important point. There is absolutely no good reason to take alcohol. Here's some reading for you:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/5964-alcohol-and-sikhism.html
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/health-and-nutrition/33008-drug-experts-say-alcohol-worse-than.html


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## findingmyway (Jun 15, 2011)

> HOSH and NOT JOSH is the wya to go..but i see JOSH more than HOSH...as   for me..I only attend the Gurdwara and never the dinner bhangra etc as i   find it distastefull...that is the way more sikhs should be persuaded   to go...rather than use strong arm tactics on GURDWARAS !!



I think this needs to be repeated again and again! Education and love are the way to intil morality which will cope with all tests. Enforcing rules will push people away and is unbecoming. We must not develop a holier than thou attitude but attract people to the beauty of Sikhi so all else seems pale!


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## Archived_member14 (Jun 15, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

Spnadmin ji,



> I have no idea why my remarks have been so difficult to decipher by some forum members, other than perhaps their passion and a certain amount of "holier than thou-ism" has created a filter for reading my comments, and the raw words are not getting through.




I did hesitate to respond as I wasn't sure whether you were limiting your comment only to the picnic and parties part. But the â€œclosed conceptâ€ was in your quote which in the original referred to the idea of not allowing meat in Gurdwaras. Hope you can now see why your message was interpreted by me that way?


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## spnadmin (Jun 15, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

lol Confused ji, Language is confusing isn't it?

All I can do is share this thought regarding the philosopher Wittgenstein



> WIttgenstein conceived of his later philosophy as 'showing the fly 'the way out of  the fly bottle' (Philosophical Investigations 1.309). Philosophy, as he put it, often arises from being 'bewitched' by language, or begins 'when language goes on holiday' (1.38)...as if philosophy were an illness from which philosophers suffer.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 15, 2011)

Dear Way Ji

It was not long ago, I heard docters recommending one or two glasses of red wine a week!

Dear Confused Ji

Never argue with the mythical creature called spnadmin ,as she has perhaps ten heads and you only have one .

Dear Spnadmin

I agree with you implicitly on all topics including those yet to be posted0


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## findingmyway (Jun 15, 2011)

Sinner Singh said:


> Dear Way Ji
> 
> It was not long ago, I heard docters recommending one or two glasses of red wine a week!



Incorrect!! I have explained why here
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/health-and-nutrition/28686-alcohol-good-for-heart-not-really.html

Here is also something interesting
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/health-and-nutrition/35098-report-reveals-alcohol-cancer-link.html

At the end of the day, as a Sikh I follow what SGGS says and it is clear alcohol is wrong for very good reasons. I try to follow my Guru and use that as a yardstick to assess my behaviour. I have more respect for a Sikh who drinks but knows it is anti-Gurmat and they are being a Manmukh and they can admit to it than a Sikh who drinks and obstinately tries to justify it to make themselves feel better.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

Gurukameet said:


> door where you will be given alcohol and meat.
> 
> This has happened and still happens, and why is it wrong?


 
Lets clarify some things.

Guru Gobind Singh ji killed Bandha Bahadhurs goats and fed them to his men and it became langaar.

Meat was served in Langaar up until the 2nd Guru when Vashnavites objected.

Some Gurudwaras still serve meat as Langaar.

With regards to alcohol, it is not a food or even a thirst quenching drink therefore it cannot be regarded as Langaar.

There are however Gurudwara's in India that have alcohol as Parshad.

People really need to get over this nonsense over some wording. If someone refered to this as Langaar, so what. Langaar can mean the meal served in an Army mess.

BTW I am against Alcohol as I do not drink myself, but it can be used medicinally.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

Gurukameet said:


> The overall growing consensus in UK is that it is wrong to serve alcohol and meat in Gurdwara premises, whether there is Guru Granth Sahib is there or not as the sangat has brought the premises and it is anti-Sikh to serve alcohol. I appreciate some administrators of SPN may disagree and feel it should be allowed, in a separate hall, but these people are a growing minority. .


 

Has there been a vote on this?

Where is the consensus?

You mean those rabble rousers who storm peoples weddings enforce consensus?

Oh plllllease!!


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## Archived_member14 (Jun 15, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

Spnadmin ji,



> Quote: WIttgenstein conceived of his later philosophy as showing the fly 'the way out of the fly bottle' (Philosophical Investigations 1.309). Philosophy, as he put it, often arises from being 'bewitched' by language, or begins 'when language goes on holiday' (1.38)...as if philosophy were an illness from which philosophers suffer.




I remember reading this quote more than 20 years ago and liking it a lot. It motivated me to try and find books by Wittgenstein which I did. However I found his writings extremely hard to understand, but this was probably because of the style of expression, and so they remained almost untouched on my bookshelf till the day I decided to throw most of my books away.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 15, 2011)

Dear Findingmyway Ji

I'm not trying to justify or advocate alchohol ,I'm only saying that a symposium may not be immoral.
Surely abstinence is not the only virtue worthy of your respect.Perhaps a spotless liver does not indicate a spotless soul.

Some of the most beautiful Souls I know partake in the odd glass of wine,I respect them still , I feel that we must rise higher than these conventions. 

Dearest respected sister, I'm advocating moderation in these matters,and trying to enlighten my mind and not my stomach.


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## arshi (Jun 15, 2011)

*This is precisely the problem in allowing meat and alcohol to be served on premises owned by or associated with the Gurudwara Sahib, often these halls are adjacent to the Gurudwara itself and it has been known for langar to be cooked at the Gurudwara langar precinct and served in the hall next door where a liberal attitude is taken to the consumption of meat and drink – thus mixing langar (sanctified food at the feet of the Guru - bhog lagwana) with other food and liquid products. It is quite common in such circumstances for this to be referred to as ‘Guru ka Langar’ on invitation cards. Such langar prepared with devotion in the Guru’s langar hall is then served in the party hall with all its impurities thus 'polluting' the food which earlier received the Guru’s blessing through the Ardas and ‘bhog’.’ I agree with Ishna ji saying calling it Guru Ka Langar on the card does not make it Guru Ka Langar if the essential discipline is not observed. *

*On another thread (now closed), this was the core principle in point not the protagonists involved, as they change according to each case. The Sikh awareness on this is changing rapidly in the <?xml::
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





UK, although isolated cases do blow the issue out of proportion. Whatever the argument there is no justification for Sikhs fighting Sikhs, even in the face of goading or provocation (this saddens me a lot). In my humble opinion, it is wrong to serve meat and alcohol on premises owned by or associated with the Gurudwara Sahib. <?"urn:<img src=" />*

*I know that some feel that hiring out halls make commercial sense and will ease the Guru Ghar’s financial problems and these may be noble thoughts. However, if the Guru Ghars are managed properly, the Sikh tenets adhered to and expounded with true devotion and dedication finance will not be an issue. The majority of Sikh Gurudwaras in the UK have flourished over the years and we see impressive and beautiful buildings in place of small houses and wooden sheds these started from – I was involved with a few in the 1970s. None of these had to resort to raising funds by being liberal in the use of their premises, although talk of this has been going on since the early 70s and in my experience each time this was at the behest of those who loved a lifestyle involving meat and alcohol. Then they did not have their way and Gurudwaras flourished nevertheless. We can do it now without comprising our standards and principles.*



*The sad thing (as pointed out by Gurukameet) is the Gurudwara proceedings are fast becoming a necessary ritual with some which they feel has to be tolerated before the party begins. I have also noticed that many miss the Gurudwara function altogether and take up seats at the celebration hall well in advance. *

*None of the above comments are aimed at anyone in particular and are meant in good faith – apologies in advance or any offence caused.*

*Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’*


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## Admin (Jun 15, 2011)

*Dear All, i have just added a public poll at the top of the topic to get a clear picture of what and why you think on this topic. You can make multiple selections for your answers. It would be appreciable if you could explain the reason behind choosing a particular selection.

Thank you
Gurafteh!


*


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## findingmyway (Jun 15, 2011)

Sinner Singh said:


> Dear Findingmyway Ji
> 
> I'm not trying to justify or advocate alchohol ,I'm only saying that a symposium may not be immoral.
> Surely abstinence is not the only virtue worthy of your respect.Perhaps a spotless liver does not indicate a spotless soul.
> ...



Spotless liver does not equal a spotless soul-I agree. However, that cannot be used as justification for the odd drink. There has to be a line. Sikhi is a journey and we are all at different points. Wherever you are on that journey, if you accept SGGS as your Guru then you must accept the teachings. Accepting and following are different things so if you choose to continue drinking then that must be accepted as your PERSONAL choice despite the teachings rather than making excuses. There are many things we do that do not add to our spirituality but the aim of a Sikh's life is to tackle those gradually. I don't drink and I am far from perfect-I accept that. I accept that some things I do are not completely inline with Gurmat but I will not justify them by saying oh well what's the harm!! 

Moderation does not apply to alcohol. Look to your experiences and science to tell you that in some situations even 1 drink is enough to make you lose your senses. Many ethnic groups and individuals are dispropertionately affected by alcohol and become addicted easily due to genetics so the concept of moderation is not always possible wrt alcohol. If you lose your mind, even a little bit then you are moving away from Waheguru. It's not about immorality as much as facing your own actions and their consequences. Facing the fact you have chosen and owning up it is a choice, even if it a choice that goes against Gurbani.

Knowing the direction of the journey and whether you are travelling that way or not is worthy of my respect regardless of your precise point on the path. Making excuses is not.

Anyway we digress from the starter article so if you want to continue this discussion we can do that elsewhere.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 15, 2011)

Dear Findingmyway Ji

I think what we are both saying is relevant to the underlying aspect ,even if not to the Langar one,where else shall we take it, maybe we should go for a drink?winkingmunda
More seriously the question is whether abstinence is a categorical imperative of our faith,or is it a convention based on a certain interpretation of the Guru's Word.

Perhaps someone better qualified could find the passages that we need to study. 

My personal life is my own, I do what I believe to be right,before coming to this position ,I was teetotal for nearly ten years ,but I felt my God ,he who stores Universes like sweets in a jar, didn't really care that much about that minor aspect of my life !


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## findingmyway (Jun 15, 2011)

Sinner Singh said:


> My personal life is my own, I do what I believe to be right,before coming this I was teetotal for nearly ten years ,but I felt my God ,he who stores Universes like sweets in a jar, didn't really care that much about that minor aspect of ones life !



This is where we disagree as I do not think it is a minor aspect (but maybe that's because I am in healthcare). As well as the mind, it affects your social life and sangat. I also do not think abstinence is for God but for ourselves. Sikhi does not believe in an abrahamical God. The gurbani has been covered in some of the links I posted earlier which is why I have not repeated it.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jun 15, 2011)

I first admit that I have not read - and do not intend to read all 40 posts.  I'll just give my ideas and go back to my photoshopping.

First, to me alcohol in any form is a no-brainer.  Let an alcohol-consuming Sikh find another place to indulge, not at langar.

The meat thing takes a bit more explanation.  Everybody should be welcome and not have qualms about eating langar.  While I know some very good Khalsa who eat meat, most I know are vegetarians.  If we are all to eat as equals together, we cannot serve meat.  Period.  Also we like to welcome those from other communities, some of whom don't eat meat.  

This has its limits, though.  We cannot cater to everyone.  Good Jains don't eat root vegetables.  I cannot imagine langar without potastoes, ginger, onions, garlic, haldi.

That's my take.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

In Sidh Ghost the Yogis very proudly informed Guru Ji that they only ate roots, fruits and other such foods in the forests..expecting Guru ji to applaud/agree/or prasie them for this......BUT....Guru Ji didnt even acknowledge this fact....and proceeded to answer the next question. This means this diet thing is a no brainer non starter non-issue. period. What you eat has nothing absolutley to do with your spiritual development/state.

Baba Ramdev..the so called World class YOGA Master who used to proudly declare to THOUSANDS of hsi Yoga Camp attendees..YOGA is so powerful..a yoga practiotioner NEVER needs any medicines, drugs, or even see the door of a hospital..blah blah blah.. JUST after 3 days of "Fasting" he was near COLLAPSE, went to the ICU ward of a HOSPITAL, had to have GLUCOSE etc up his veins...SO MUCH for his tall claims about YOGA enabling people to live healthy lives for HUNDRED YEARS...and all that BS.

One Swami Nigdenda fasting to stop the Gnanga River pollution DIED after 68 days of fasting..he is NOT a YOGI at all...Darshan Singh Pheruman died after fasting for 80 days...Bhai Randhir Singh fasted without food/or even water for over 40 days and was still STRONG ENOUGH to not let a drop of water be forced down his throat even while FOUR HEFTY Jail wardens sat on his CHEST and arms legs, and the Gora Chief SMASHED Bhai sahib's FRONT TEETH to INSERT a Feeding TUBE !! Bhai sahib held his breath and nothing went in..finally the gora admitted DEFEAT. THAT is SPIRITUAL STRENGTH...and Baba Ramdev the DHONGI/FRAUD didnt have an iota of it... These three were non-meat eating individuals but pheruman was  a jhatka eater.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

> One Swami Nigdenda fasting to stop the Gnanga River pollution DIED after 68 days of fasting


 
I think he was poisoned. There was such an update in autopsy.


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## spnadmin (Jun 15, 2011)

May I ask why we are digressing from the thread topic, whether to serve alcohol at Guru Ka Langar? This has been troubling me for hours. 

The problem with the discussion comes from some assumptions in the first article. If alcohol is always kurehit to all Sikhs in all situations, then the question is answered. If you argue that alcohol is a detriment to mind and health, then you probably also believe that Sikhs must avoid alcohol. Here again, the question is answered: There should never be any alcohol at any gathering of Sikhs labeled Guru Ka Langar.  What would then be accomplished by having a discussion?  The issues in real time are not that simple. 


To help focus the discussion let's think about the meaning of Guru Ka Langar. Let's also consider where we are headed - toward sense or toward nonsense - when we address the question that makes up the thread. Some say that alcohol is always kurehit. Others say, but only under certain circumstances. What circumstances can lead only to disapproval or even outrage? When is our disapproval or outrage justified? When not?


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## Gurukameet (Jun 16, 2011)

There are a number of questions addressed to me,  I am not sure if I can answer them all.  

Just a few points, Gurdwara do not need the money generated from halls serving aclohol, kindly have a look at the Charity Commission website and type in the search section Gurdwara you will find the accounts of all Sikh organisations in UK.  Carefully study this there are NO poor Gurdwaras that need this money,  and carefully have a look at activities they provide hardly any provide support for acholohics and there famillies.

Guru Ka Langar,  from my limited understanding means,  langar that is from the Gurus house and everything that is from the Guru's house is blessed and provides energy,  maybe I was a bit too harsh criticising all the sweets and fried food given as langar,  I am trying to loose weight and get upset after exceeding calorie count from langar.  One thali is around 2000 calaries,  which is what the average female should consume.  I am totally guitly of having langar without consideration of calorie counts.  I have seen instances where obese people have not only had a full thali but agreed to have pizza and chips on top of the thali.  This is killing people,  but I do not want to be too harsh,  it is not as bad a having ahcolol.

MY objections lies primarily feeling deceived,  I was not expecting it and was upset.  The proximity of the premises also has an influence, if the hall where party food is given is literally next door to the Gurdwara then I would not expect to have meat aclohol,  but if the hall is far away,  then my objection would not have been so high.   I would have been prepared and obviously have known what to expect.

Funny thing is,  people did notice I did not eat,  but were more concerned with me not dancing.  I had aunties lecture me about the virtues of dancing, you can loose calories that way:-(  motherlylove  I think I will stick to aerobics, cycling etc.. thanks,  out of Gurdwara premises thanks.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 17, 2011)

Alcohol is as OK for a SIKH as a Beef Burger is OK for a Brahmin and a Pork Sandwich is OK for a Muslim. Still confused ?............. *ITS NOT OK even a single drop*....and NOT even as Medicine.... and this position is 100% as per Gurbani of SGGS and SRM.Period.


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## spnadmin (Jun 17, 2011)

Gurukameet ji

I want to thank you for providing a very clear context, and lots of additional information. I also want to thank you for explaining the personal impact and the dilemmas you face. These are the kinds of reactions that many would have in the same situation. It puts you on the spot and is socially very difficult. You helped many people reading today who have a hard time putting their problem with this into words. I am one of them. Great response!


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## Randip Singh (Jun 17, 2011)

Gurukameet said:


> There are a number of questions addressed to me, I am not sure if I can answer them all.
> 
> Just a few points, Gurdwara do not need the money generated from halls serving aclohol, kindly have a look at the Charity Commission website and type in the search section Gurdwara you will find the accounts of all Sikh organisations in UK. Carefully study this there are NO poor Gurdwaras that need this money, and carefully have a look at activities they provide hardly any provide support for acholohics and there famillies.
> 
> ...


 
I think you need to research the history behind Guru Ka Langaar.

Meat was served in Langaar up until the 2nd Guru until Vashnaites objected (the people being Hindu). Since Langaar was open to all it was deemed sensible to keep it away.

There are many accounts of the Guru's killing goats etc and feeding it to there men. The classic being Bandha Bahadhurs goats being slaughtered by the 10th master and served to his men. This food was blessed by the living Guru and hence became Langaar.

If we want to get pious then lets ban all leather and animal products from the Gurudwara. I mean the dholkees next to the SGGSji are made from goat skin!!!

These places are just Halls. I think rightly so, the Gurudwaras have made a commercial decision to have these halls to have these parties. So what if they are owned by the Temple? It makes no difference.

Unless you are saying every single building thing owned by the temple is the Gurudwara.

The alcohol thing is a seperate issue, and I don't think Sikhs should drink it. I do think it can be used as a medicine however.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 17, 2011)

Gurukameet said:


> There are a number of questions addressed to me, I am not sure if I can answer them all.
> 
> Just a few points, Gurdwara do not need the money generated from halls serving aclohol, kindly have a look at the Charity Commission website and type in the search section Gurdwara you will find the accounts of all Sikh organisations in UK. Carefully study this there are NO poor Gurdwaras that need this money, and carefully have a look at activities they provide hardly any provide support for acholohics and there famillies.
> 
> ...


 
Hi,

I think you need to learn some history into what langaar is and how it evolved.

1) There was meat in Langaar up until the 2nd Guru until Vashnavites objected.

2) The Guru's have served meat as Langaar. 10th Master slaughtered Bandha Bahadhurs goats and fed them to his men.

3) Some temples still carry on the tradition in 2.

4) The Hall maybe owned by the Gurudwara Commitee but is not a Gurudwara, so I cannot see a problem.

5) If you want to get really pious then ban all animal and leather products from the Gurudwara. That includes tablas and dholkees next to the SGGSji.

6) The alcohol thing is a seperate issue and should not be consumed by Sikhs, however, if they wish to in a hall, then so be it.

7) Langaar can refer to a mess in the army or even food served by other traditions like Sufi's

8) Do not get hung up on words, try and understand the tradition.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 17, 2011)

Many Can't See The Wood For The Trees!

"Too beset by petty things to appreciate the greatness or grandeur; too wrapped up in details to gain a view of the whole."

Five hundred years have passed and we are still talking dietary conventions.It is not the substance but the abuse of it ,that is the disease.:interestedsingh:


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 17, 2011)

> These places are just Halls. I think rightly so, the Gurudwaras have made a commercial decision to have these halls to have these parties. So what if they are owned by the Temple? It makes no difference.
> 
> Unless you are saying every single building thing owned by the temple is the Gurudwara.


 
If Guru Granth Sahib says that alcohol is bad for the mind and body, then why should it be served in halls owned by Gurudwara? On one hand we are asking to stay away, on the other hand we are endorsing people to drink it up on our own property.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 17, 2011)

Kanwaljit Singh Ji

I see your point ,we should be cultivating Sikhi principles,but these parties usually have 50% ladies who don't partake,then some percentage of the men are tee totalers,then you have the children.
But we must remember it's not a beer festival, it's a social gathering ,the food is just as important .


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## Harry Haller (Jun 23, 2011)

As someone who used to regularly put away a bottle of scotch a night, I feel I can speak with some authority on the dangers of drinking to excess. At the age of 26 my doctor informed me my liver was in the same condition as the liver of a man aged 80. Age gives way to maturity, I drink occasionally now, and my wife does not drink at all. 

You drink because the alcohol gives you a high, takes away inhibitions and it makes it easier to have a good time. I am no saint, I love a good bottle of wine with a meal or a beer with a curry, although strangely my mothers cooking I only eat with coca cola. However, I believe the gurus forbade the use of alcohol as it inhibits the search for the creator. Although I am not blessed enough yet, I would imagine being as one with the creator as better than the best champagne and the purest drugs. Although this does beg the question would being addicted to feelings of closeness to the creator be wrong?

To the question of alcohol being served at social functions on premises owned by a gurdwara, well, quite simply, it is all in the wording. Rebrand the premises as community hall, rebrand Guru Ka Langar as 'refreshments' and I think that is the best you can do. I think if alcohol is going to be served at a wedding or an engagement, avoid the use of the words 'guru ka langar', this would help everyone, as if people saw 'refreshment' they would know beforehand this probably means booze, and 'guru ka langar' means possibly meat but no booze.

I take a liberal view on this, purely because if people are going to be 'human' at least get the rules correct. 

Gyaniji is as always quite correct as to what the Gurus demanded of us to be good sikhs, however, I would prefer a room full of happy dancing squiffy sikhs who were on the right track to gurmukhi, than a room full of physically perfect sikhs wishing they were somewhere else. 

I come from a khatri background, and ours are one of the worst culprits for appearances. Sikhism represents nothing more than a social club where ego and pride are highly lauded to some of these people. Sikhism for these is all about ceremony, tradition, rituals, again I push forward the point by taking dear sinnerji as a excellent example. From what I have read , Sinnerji is quite intelligent regarding philosophy and spirituality, he is on the road to find himself, and then ultimately the creator, and he clearly likes a drink and a dance. I could quite happily talk to him for hours about the search for the truth, whereas there are plenty of people who do not drink and are not mona who have absolutely no idea what sikhism represents or how powerful it can be as an aide to living. 

I read in detail the sikh code of conduct the other day, just to see how far short I fall. I fall pretty short. But I also observed enough in the code that all of us probably fall short. Which of the codes are more forgivable, which will deflect us from the path of the guru?. Under the code I cannot socialise with smokers, a woman cannot have pierced ears. To take this to the extreme, drinkers who go to Gurdwara, should they have a time limit by which the alcohol should have left the system before they are allowed to enter, should women with pierced ears not put rings in them before entering?

Both the non drinking of alcohol and the piercing of ears are against the code, which one is worse, is the sight of a woman with pierced ears or a mona  holding a sign proclaiming 'alcohol is beadbi' a contradiction?

I have decided to go to India with my wife in November to stay with my parents. As a gesture I will grow my hair out and wear a pugh, my dad asked me if I would carry on with it when I returned to England. I replied I probably would not until I had taken Amrit, on account I wanted to be fully sikh inside before I was comfortable being seen as a sikh. 

I think if you are amritdhari sikh then you must follow the code to the letter, or make your best effort. For the rest of us, this remains the end of one road and the beginning of another, but whilst that flux remains, it would be futile to pretend that certain things do not happen and brush them under the carpet, although I strongly believe that alcohol should not be mentioned in the same breath or sentence as 'Guru Ka Langar', call it something else. .


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 23, 2011)

Dear Harry Ji 


Thanks for the kind words ,

I do like to dance and drink ginger beer mostly whilst letching after Melody on the apprentice!

"Meliora proboque deteriora sequor" I see the right way ,approve it and choose the worse way


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 23, 2011)

> Although I am not blessed enough yet, I would imagine being as one with the creator as better than the best champagne and the purest drugs. Although this does beg the question would being addicted to feelings of closeness to the creator be wrong?


 
Meeting with the Guru would probably be the biggest de-addiction.



> Rebrand the premises as community hall


 
Problem is its generally owned by the Gurudwara.



> I think if alcohol is going to be served at a wedding or an engagement, avoid the use of the words 'guru ka langar', this would help everyone, as if people saw 'refreshment' they would know beforehand this probably means booze, and 'guru ka langar' means possibly meat but no booze.


 
Correct



> I would prefer a room full of happy dancing squiffy sikhs who were on the right track to gurmukhi, than a room full of physically perfect sikhs wishing they were somewhere else.


 
But Guru would like to have a conversation with both kinds of people and guide them.



> I read in detail the sikh code of conduct the other day, just to see how far short I fall. I fall pretty short. But I also observed enough in the code that all of us probably fall short. Which of the codes are more forgivable, which will deflect us from the path of the guru?


 
I think that is where our thinking is at fault. Do we compare if one shortcoming is better than other? Or we think on the fact that in this life we are short of meeting the Guru?



> To take this to the extreme, drinkers who go to Gurdwara, should they have a time limit by which the alcohol should have left the system before they are allowed to enter, should women with pierced ears not put rings in them before entering?


 
The best thing about Sikh code is that Guru asks each and every Sikh to personally enforce the code. There is no one standing like religion police to enforce, but Sangat is there to help when asked (though that is changing e.g. most parents asking kids not to cut hair!).



> I have decided to go to India with my wife in November to stay with my parents. As a gesture I will grow my hair out and wear a pugh, my dad asked me if I would carry on with it when I returned to England. I replied I probably would not until I had taken Amrit, on account I wanted to be fully sikh inside before I was comfortable being seen as a sikh.


 
I personally feel that retracing your steps is bad, one should avoid as much as one can. I believe keeping hair and turban can inspire you to go forth on many aspects in Sikhi, stick to it. Like now you keep hair and wear turban, should you be holding that glass of beer? You have swaroop of Guru's Sikh, should you be angry or looking miserable, or always smiling? And think of it, your action can reduce the respect for hair and turban in the eyes of others, who think of you as role model or something.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh


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## Harry Haller (Jun 24, 2011)

"I personally feel that retracing your steps is bad, one should avoid as much as one can. I believe keeping hair and turban can inspire you to go forth on many aspects in Sikhi, stick to it. Like now you keep hair and wear turban, should you be holding that glass of beer? You have swaroop of Guru's Sikh, should you be angry or looking miserable, or always smiling? And think of it, your action can reduce the respect for hair and turban in the eyes of others, who think of you as role model or something"

Dearest Kanwaljitji, 

I accept your thoughts on this, and you have much wisdom in what you write, but it is out of respect for my mother and father that I would not cut any hair in their house. 

Fortunately, I have no social circle of family and friends, that I have to worry about inspiring other people, there is just me, my wife, 2 dogs, 3 cats, 4 ferrets, a stepson, mum, dad, brother and his wife. 

However if there was something I would like to inspire in other people, it would be to concentrate on the spiritual rather than the physical, until your physical mirrors the spirit inside you. At this point, yes, I would keep my hair


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## ge77inhigh (Jun 24, 2011)

The purpose behind lunger to make it so that anyone can eat it. I think some of us don't drink and eat meat so we have to consider people like that. Matter of fact some people can't drink alcohol at all because they lack the necessary enzymes to break it down.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 25, 2011)

I confess I come from a family geberations of alcohol haters...my dad didnt allow even empty glass bottles that ahd alcohol labels...( back in those days plastic bottles were unheard of..and everyone who had a fridge had to keep water in brandy/whisky/vodka bottles....new water in old wine bottle sort of !!ha ha..and my dad refused to buy a FRIDGE to prempt that thought..so he used to go on and on about the bad effects of cold water..ice..frozen foods etc..etc..!! Luckily by my time..plastic bottles came in vogue...sometimes when i see a UNIQUELY BEAUTIFUL Brandy/whisky bottle thrown away by soem drunkard..i feel like picking it up to make flower vase ?? or goldfish bowl..house decoration piece...and then leave it there when i think of what my late dad will think of me..ha ha.............so not a drop of alcohol for me..not even if my life depended on IT !! NO WAY. PERIOD.


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## spnadmin (Jun 25, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> I confess I come from a family geberations of alcohol haters...my dad didnt allow even empty glass bottles that ahd alcohol labels...( back in those days plastic bottles were unheard of..and everyone who had a fridge had to keep water in brandy/whisky/vodka bottles....new water in old wine bottle sort of !!ha ha..and my dad refused to buy a FRIDGE to prempt that thought..so he used to go on and on about the bad effects of cold water..ice..frozen foods etc..etc..!! Luckily by my time..plastic bottles came in vogue...sometimes when i see a UNIQUELY BEAUTIFUL Brandy/whisky bottle thrown away by soem drunkard..i feel like picking it up to make flower vase ?? or goldfish bowl..house decoration piece...and then leave it there when i think of what my late dad will think of me..ha ha.............so not a drop of alcohol for me..not even if my life depended on IT !! NO WAY. PERIOD.



I always love these stories about your father. He comes alive when you tell them. 

There is no logical or scientific prop for the use of alcohol. Either people have no reaction (neutral), or they can control their drinking and reactions, or they go off the deep end. The scale ranges from neutral to very bad for you. There is no positive end of the scale, no benefits. So what is the point of serving it at Guru Ka Langar? Are we doing harm by serving booze?

To those who have an addiction and whose lives are in chaos because of drinking, we owe them compassion and support, if they ask. That is not the same thing as being permissive or "enabling" them in any way. It might even mean having to be tough at times. But the need to drink is an illness. The question to ask is: How am I making that illness worse?

Serving alcohol at Guru Ka Langar? How does that contribute anything of merit, anything positive? By doing it, we are doing something of no worth to those who do not have a drinking problem. And by doing it, we are doing something bery harmful to those who do have a drinking problem. Sikh quom needs to stop! Our prejudices against alcohol are beside the point. Do No Harm! Gurdwaras can manage in other ways.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 25, 2011)

I also enjoy hearing about your father Gyaniji, he reminds me so much of my own grandfather, who had very very similar ideas about cutting hair and drinking. If I am honest, although I had been lost enough to wear my long hair in a pony tail for a while, I only cut it when my grandfather had passed on. I didn't want to break his heart in his last years.Of course he never saw me marry, but then even that was probably a blessing. 

My grandfather was hugely perceptive, even at a young age, I think he saw what I would do with my life, which made him constantly beg my parents to get me married young. As I grew older, I noticed the esteem he held my fellow cousins, but he always seemed to be so angry with me. One of our last meetings was at my cousins house, I did peri pena, but he looked angry and sad, he sat down and then burst into tears begging me to get married and not spend the rest of my life wandering from woman to woman. Looking back, he knew, he knew what I was about, no one else did, but yes he knew. 

He was a wonderful man, I wish I had got to know him better


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## Bmandur (Jun 27, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*



Gurukameet said:


> OK, you are saying that to serve alcohol as Guru ka Langar is perfectly normal and not misleading because it is part of Punjabi culture??
> 
> I am a bit surprised to be honest. I think it is unlikely that SPN is supported by Guinness, but I may be wrong.
> 
> ...


 

Guru Ka Meet ji,
I would like to seethat invitation says Guru ka Langar and they were serving the No veg thing & Alchohal I need the printing proof with the card holder name & phone number so we can verify that
Otherwise do not twist the words. If it was different hall that it has nothing to do with Gurudwara
It's family fault ifthey mislead


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## Harry Haller (Jun 29, 2011)

I have just had a chap walk into my shop, wanting to sell some IT hardware. After agreeing to pick it up, I noticed the address was a local methodist church. He asked to me come to the community hall. I enquired whether the hall was open to all, it was, he replied. I asked whether they allowed alcohol on the premises, and explained the problems this had caused us, as sikhs, no, he replied, but they had a similar debate, and it was decided that it would be up to the local priest. However he did say that at that particular church, it was an absolute no, and people were advised to go to a church with less stringent rules if they wanted to have drink on the premises and in the community hall.

Interestingly if a methodist church is sold, it is written into the deeds that no building can be built and subsequently sold that is any way linked to the sale or consumption of alcohol and tobacco.


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## spnadmin (Jul 1, 2011)

Harry ji

I got very excited when I read your remarks. All during this discussion, I knew that this had to be an issue for many Protestant denominations where alcohol (and tobacco) is either forbidden or strongly discouraged. I am aware of at least one (politically liberal) Episcopal church in my area where alcohol and tobacco are not allowed, even in adjacent church buildings or the parking lot. This was true before the days of "smoke free." And this particular church also rents space for all sorts of religious and nonreligious events to nonmembers. 

And it struck me that I should call around and find out how this very issue was resolved. Whether there were divisions within their congregations on the matter of alcohol. Just about everyone now is on the same page with tobacco as a society. The priests or ministers are advised by governing boards in Protestant religions, making it hard for a priest to act in a solitary fashion. Believe me the elders would not let something that stirred passions pass without some serious grumbling. I would want to know the history of how their current position on alcohol was settled. So many questions, and so much ignorance on my end.

So you got to the bottom of one situation. Thanks so much for your quick thinking. Maybe I will check out some others to satisfy my own need to get closure on the interfaith front.


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## Gurukameet (Jul 2, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*



Bmandur said:


> Guru Ka Meet ji,
> I would like to seethat invitation says Guru ka Langar and they were serving the No veg thing & Alchohal I need the printing proof with the card holder name & phone number so we can verify that
> Otherwise do not twist the words. If it was different hall that it has nothing to do with Gurudwara
> It's family fault ifthey mislead




I am not going to give you the card and invitation,  that would be dangerous. I knew feelings can be very passionate on the issue and it was close family programme.

If you want to you can send me a private email and I will give you the address of the Gurdwara and hall.  The problem is the langar hall is small, so if people want to use this particular Gurdwara for weddings and functions then they always end hiring the hall as well,  which is adjacent to the Gurdwara they only thing that separates the Gurdwara to the hall is a brick wall,  there is walking distance other than 5 yards.

It is was last minute decision to have acholol and meat.  It was obviously a surprise to me,  even if I protested at the beginning I don't think my protests would have been adhered to, I have not written to the Gurdwara yet.  I am not sure if they would understand English,  but I am sure the committee would.

When people in a particular circles or communities always celebrate with parties,  then when that particular family turn comes then they are too an extent feeling obliged to turn to give the rounds of drinks,  I am not part of that circle anymore and have been exposed to a different circle, hence my values and outlook have changed, influenced by a different breed of sangat,   and it is no longer acceptable.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 2, 2011)

People CAN STAND UP and be counted..or be afraid of..what people will say...blah blah blah...my dad did stand up and declare..I DONT DRINK...I WILL NOT SUPPLY DRINK..I WILL NOT LET anyone come with hsi own Drink !! This was in answer to some who said..Gyani ji..we know you dont drink..but why not just PAY the Caterer and he will give US the drinks...and yet others who said..Gyani ji..you dont drink..what about WE bringing our own drinks and drinking privately ?? TO ALL 3 groups..my dad said firmly..NOTHING DOING. If you dont like my rules..DONT ATTEND the wedding/join the Baraat. None was absent !! (they must have dissed dad like no body's business behind his back...saying things like cheapskate..kanjoos..miser..saving moeny and not feeling happy ?? at least make merry once at his sons wedding ?? what a cheapskate Gyani !!
SAME goes for ME..there will be ABSOLUTELY NO DRINKING at any of my kids weddings. period. I am too CHEAPSKATE to waste money even on beer !!..and also drumsticks and wings.

2. btw..I have been attending weddings and dinners since i was 5..and mingling with the crowds...I have YET to come across a wedding/dinner/function etc..where the "valued guests" DID NOT SNIGGER..whipser behind palms to the neighbours....and it was always..What a CHEAPSKATE..this so and so...serving chicken..but its all Coloured Water with chillis and massala powder..cant find a piece of bone even..let alone chicken !! SEE how that woamn is standing behind the server..watching clsoely that no one takes a second helping..see how they control the beer cans..see how they stand guard over the whisky..pouring tiny pegs..!! etc etc types of DERISIVE REMARKS !!! SO such remarks are all too common..no matter if the HOST goes BANKRUPT trying to satisfy everyone..its just IMPOSSIBLE..this feeling to satisfy everyone and BALLEH BALLEH is the main reason for alcohol/meat etc...and now DJs Bnads, naked singers bhangras, etc etc..everyone is deathly afraid he wont be able to keep up with the JONESES..Punjabis are going into DEBT for false Pride...when will we sense up....when will we wake up..and stop making a fool of ourselves..at such a HIGH COST.  People come just to have a free meal..and fun at your expense....


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## Harry Haller (Jul 2, 2011)

I have been to maybe 5 or 6 sikh weddings in my entire life, mostly thanks to being the black sheep.

and I thought I was missing something!


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jul 2, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> PPunjabis are going into DEBT for false Pride...when will we sense up....when will we wake up..and stop making a fool of ourselves..at such a HIGH COST.  People come just to have a free meal..and fun at your expense....




The highest cost of all being the murder of our daughters whether before or after birth .  motherlylove

(Honestly, I can think of a hundred ways alcohol can make my life worse and not a single way it can make my life better.  Sikhi is at least partly about improving my life.)


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 4, 2011)

Mai Ji I LOVE your Avatar..BERSIH means CLEAN UP ..and Right Now Civil Society led by a wide ranging groups like 92 NGOs, political parties, social groupings, etc etc are fighting peacefully to asser their RIGHT to Fair and FREE Elections in malaysia...free of corruption, gerrmandering, unfair practises of the Ruling Govt like proviiding grants and projects and making development promises near elections ..all of which are beyond the opposition to do..and so elections become tainted and manipulative.This initiative is led by Datuk Ambiga of Indian origin former Bar council president.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jul 4, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Mai Ji I LOVE your Avatar..BERSIH means CLEAN UP ..and Right Now Civil Society led by a wide ranging groups like 92 NGOs, political parties, social groupings, etc etc are fighting peacefully to asser their RIGHT to Fair and FREE Elections in malaysia...free of corruption, gerrmandering, unfair practises of the Ruling Govt like proviiding grants and projects and making development promises near elections ..all of which are beyond the opposition to do..and so elections become tainted and manipulative.This initiative is led by Datuk Ambiga of Indian origin former Bar council president.



Thanks, Gyani ji.  I made several before I settled on this one.

I like to support causes that help people get freedom and better lives.  What better way than an avatar/profile picture that all sorts of people will see?  Some will see it and be encouraged; some will see it and become curious;  some will see it and, I hope, be infuriated.  

I also try to combine Sikhi and whatever else I'm supporting, since being Sikh is the reason I care.


Not serving meat and/or liquor in langar will become one of my causes should the need arise.  I wonder what that avatar would look like?!

I still believe what we used to chant in demonstrations in the 1960s:

THE PEOPLE
UNITED
WILL NEVER BE DEFEATED!​
There may be - there will be - casualties, even fatalities but if we stand in solidarity, we will eventually win.

animatedkhanda1


If necessary not serving meat and/or liquor in lagar will become a cause of mine.  I wonder what that avatar would look like.


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## lionprinceuk (Jul 6, 2011)

I am sure in the Dals they do Guru Ka Langar with jhatka anyway, and they couldn't care less for Anti-dal Khalsa panth SRM anyway!


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## spnadmin (Jul 9, 2011)

*A collection of recent comments has been moved to a new thread at http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/36187-one-too-many-a-discussion-alcohol-2.html  entitled One Too Many? A Discussion of Alcohol and Sikhi.  The thread was going off topic

Back on track with the words of Gyani Jarnail Singh Arshi




			People CAN STAND UP and be counted..or be afraid of..what people will say...blah blah blah...my dad did stand up and declare..I DONT DRINK...I WILL NOT SUPPLY DRINK..I WILL NOT LET anyone come with hsi own Drink !! This was in answer to some who said..Gyani ji..we know you dont drink..but why not just PAY the Caterer and he will give US the drinks...and yet others who said..Gyani ji..you dont drink..what about WE bringing our own drinks and drinking privately ?? TO ALL 3 groups..my dad said firmly..NOTHING DOING. If you dont like my rules..DONT ATTEND the wedding/join the Baraat. None was absent !! (they must have dissed dad like no body's business behind his back...saying things like cheapskate..kanjoos..miser..saving moeny and not feeling happy ?? at least make merry once at his sons wedding ?? what a cheapskate Gyani !!
		
Click to expand...

Thanks/Spnadmin*


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## a.mother (Jul 15, 2011)

Why we should serve it in langer when this is not allowd and it is 'buzzer kurahit' ? Is this oxygen, that we could not survive ?


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## DrRavtej (Jul 17, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*



Gurukameet said:


> Kuramai is pre-engagement programme from the grooms side, where the bride family come with fruits etc..at the Gurdwara.
> 
> For my clarification?  Spnadmin you believe it is acceptable to have meat and alcohol served as Guru Ka Langar??



Gurukameet ji
As stated by you that it was a Kurmai or pre engagement party, it becomes conclusive that this was a private function and not a Langar at the gurdwara which is open to all.


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## sachbol (Aug 1, 2011)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

Waheguruji Ka Khalsa Waheguruji ki Fateh
Meat must not be served in Guru Ka Langar because Guru Ka Langar is for all. Vegetarians and Muslims 
may object to it. So meat must be out. If you take meat at home, it is still Guru Ka Langar but for us only.

Personally I am not against alcohol and sometimes I ENJOY MY SCOTCH in privacy. I think alcohol must
 be banned in Gurdwaras as some body may be intoxicated and a very ugly scene may be staged. 

So No alcohol and NO meat in Guru ka langar.

I also do not like preparation and consumption of Bhang (Sukhha) in Gurdwaras.

I also do not like Jhatka and tilak of shastars with goat blood in the Gurdwara

Please guide me if I AM WRONG


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## lionprinceuk (Jan 5, 2012)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*



sachbol said:


> Waheguruji Ka Khalsa Waheguruji ki Fateh
> Meat must not be served in Guru Ka Langar because Guru Ka Langar is for all. Vegetarians and Muslims
> may object to it. So meat must be out. If you take meat at home, it is still Guru Ka Langar but for us only.
> 
> ...



I will try and guide you.

You may not like jhatka and sukha, but is a part of kshatri dharam of the Khalsa.

For those who practise kshatri dharam, these practises are required! And a Khalsa without kshatria dharam might as well be Brahmins lol !


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jan 5, 2012)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*



Lion_Prince_Jatinder said:


> I will try and guide you.
> 
> You may not like jhatka and sukha, but is a part of kshatri dharam of the Khalsa.
> 
> For those who practise kshatri dharam, these practises are required! And a Khalsa without kshatria dharam might as well be Brahmins lol !


 
Lion_Princre_Jatinder ji,

ME, might as well be a brahmin?   :angryyoungkaur: I think not.  Please explain yourself.


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## BaljinderS (Jan 6, 2012)

The next thing you will be asking is, can we have disco in the Gurudwara!!! 

Are people that ignorant that they even raise these kind of questions?  What is going on with people?  If you have no interest in Sikhi then don't go to the Gurudwara!!! nobody is forcing you..

Sikhs have sacrificed too much to let these hypercritical people make fun of us...  
animatedkhanda1animatedkhanda1


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## BaljinderS (Jan 6, 2012)

I feel sorry for people who have dropped so low...  where has the Sikh character gone?  surely we didn't win so many wars with this kind of character?


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## Harry Haller (Jan 6, 2012)

Baljinderji,

Although I respect your sentiments, just so you can grasp the question at hand, it is not so much the serving of alcohol at Gurdwara, as the whether we should turn a blind eye to the serving of alcohol at events after the 'religious bit' in buildings associated with the Gurdwara, just so you do not think the question is as silly as it might seem


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## BaljinderS (Jan 6, 2012)

Thank you for clarifying this for me 

When you say "serving of alcohol at events after the 'religious bit' in buildings".

* By religious bit, do you mean "Anand Karaj" and then party in the same building afterwards?


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## Harry Haller (Jan 6, 2012)

thats it! :grinningkaur:


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## Ishna (Jan 6, 2012)

Whoops, thought I was on the wrong forum there for a minute.  This 'Kshatri dharam' stuff has popped up on another forum with much gusto.  I can see how it appeals to the young, passionate men.  In fact it has had me depressed for most of the day.  There is so little unity amongst humankind (let alone Sikhs!), so much dogma, it is evident that one's spirituality and religion is between the individual and Guruji only.  I worry how the panth is supposed to survive when humans will do what they want, when they want anyway.

It's a no-win situation though, Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave authority to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji AND the Khalsa panth... perhaps he knew that giving it to a priestly heirarchy only would bring corruption, and giving it to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji only would inevitably end up with people reading it and reaching their own conclusions with no other support, so he tried to find the middle ground?  Still didn't work though.  Humans are too corrupt.


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## Joginder Singh Foley (Jan 6, 2012)

*WJKKWJKT*
One of the cornerstones of Sikhi is TOLERENCEProceed with extreme caution here Are we to impose our views on others no matter how passionate we feel about the cause Do you want to stand in the middle of a hall full people drinking alcoholic drinks quoting Gurbani etc doing such things puts us on a slippery slope here, do we want to be viewed as an intolerant religion & end up with a Sikh version of the taliban It is best to leave/not go to such events and remember that we are all going to have to give account for our actions in this life and that no one else is responsable for your actions and you are not responsable foer any one else's actions 


:interestedkudi:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 6, 2012)

Joginder Singh Foley said:


> *WJKKWJKT*
> One of the cornerstones of Sikhi is TOLERENCEProceed with extreme caution here Are we to impose our views on others no matter how passionate we feel about the cause Do you want to stand in the middle of a hall full people drinking alcoholic drinks quoting Gurbani etc doing such things puts us on a slippery slope here, do we want to be viewed as an intolerant religion & end up with a Sikh version of the taliban It is best to leave/not go to such events and remember that we are all going to have to give account for our actions in this life and that no one else is responsable for your actions and you are not responsable foer any one else's actions
> 
> 
> :interestedkudi:



This is exactly WHAT prof Sarabjit Singh ji Dhunda is aksing in his latest so called "controversial Katha" that seemingly UPSET many inlcuding the Takhats !!! TRUTH REALLY HURTS !!
Prof sahib asks...IF Massa ranghharr was assasinated becasue he caused dancing girls and alcohol drinking in a place where the SGGS used to be parkash..what about SIKHS TODAY ?? Dont Sikhs dance and drink in front of SGGS ?? ( U tube of Gurdwara Dhesian available on Internet). Dont SIKHS dance on the streets with their daughters and show off their females on the streets during wedding bhangras dancings etc..? IF the answer is YES they do..then we are ALL Massa ranggharrs !! and Sukha Singh Mehtab singh should be removing our unworthy heads ???

Would a Mu0slim ever dare to ask..whether PORK could be served in a Mosque ?? or a HINDU ask whether BEEF can be served in a Hindu mandir as Parshaad ??? Yet we have SIKHS asking this type of sheer nonsensical questions simply becasue its the NORM among SIKHS to do ANTI-GURMATT actions as normal...what a sad day for us when the Takhats also support Manmattee sikhs to attack Gurmatt promoting Sikhs..

BOYCOTT such places..events..DONT ATTEND if you ahve a conscience....best and easiest way Forward....and IF you are SCARED and do attend or go..then keep your PEACE and be forever SILENT.:blueturban:


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## bscheema (Jan 7, 2012)

guru ka langar its not any one public property or kitchen ...it is served to every one ,not to sikh only or soo clled sikh (new term sehajdhari) those who like meat and alcohol it is served to muslim, brahims , christian , jain, Buddhist, so there should be no poll about this .coz ll u serve meat to all of them or alcohol , thts not question , did guru gave us permission to do so , can v serve any one against his her will to sit and eat meat on same pangat


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## lionprinceuk (Jan 9, 2012)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*



Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> Lion_Princre_Jatinder ji,
> 
> ME, might as well be a brahmin?   :angryyoungkaur: I think not.  Please explain yourself.



ਸਵੈਯਾ ॥
सवैया ॥
SWAYYA

ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਕੋ ਪੂਤ ਹੌ ਬਾਮਨ ਕੋ ਨਹਿ ਕੈ ਤਪੁ ਆਵਤ ਹੈ ਜੁ ਕਰੋ ॥ ਅਰੁ ਅਉਰ ਜੰਜਾਰ ਜਿਤੋ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਕੋ ਤੁਹਿ ਤਿਆਗ ਕਹਾ ਚਿਤ ਤਾ ਮੈ ਧਰੋ ॥
छत्री को पूत हौ बामन को नहि कै तपु आवत है जु करो ॥ अरु अउर जंजार जितो ग्रहि को तुहि तिआग कहा चित ता मै धरो ॥
I am the son of a Kshatriya and not of a Brahmin who may instruct for performing severe austerities; how can I absorb myself in the embarrassments of the world by leaving you;

ਅਬ ਰੀਝ ਕੈ ਦੇਹੁ ਵਹੈ ਹਮ ਕਉ ਜੋਊ ਹਉ ਬਿਨਤੀ ਕਰ ਜੋਰ ਕਰੋ ॥ ਜਬ ਆਉ ਕੀ ਅਉਧ ਨਿਦਾਨ ਬਨੈ ਅਤਿਹੀ ਰਨ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਜੂਝ ਮਰੋ ॥੨੪੮੯॥
अब रीझ कै देहु वहै हम कउ जोऊ हउ बिनती कर जोर करो ॥ जब आउ की अउध निदान बनै अतिही रन मै तब जूझ मरो ॥२४८९॥
Whatever request I am making with my folded hands, O Lord ! kindly be graceful and bestow this boon on me that when ever my end comes, then I may die fighting in the battlefield.2489.


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## lionprinceuk (Jan 9, 2012)

bscheema said:


> guru ka langar its not any one public property or kitchen ...it is served to every one ,not to sikh only or soo clled sikh (new term sehajdhari) those who like meat and alcohol it is served to muslim, brahims , christian , jain, Buddhist, so there should be no poll about this .coz ll u serve meat to all of them or alcohol , thts not question , did guru gave us permission to do so , can v serve any one against his her will to sit and eat meat on same pangat



But Guru ji has given permission to serve meat langar, mahaprashad, doing jhatka and hunting, and that is why Guru ji's nihang Singhs do this in the dals (barracks of the khalsa army) as well as takhts Patna Sahib and Hazoor Sahib. Practise also occured in Akal Takht before Lahore Singh Sabha forcibly took control.


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## bscheema (Jan 9, 2012)

Thats not Langar which is done at Anandpur sahib its practicing war tradition ,it use to be for those who been  in war from many days without any other source of food.think about Langar where u dnt kno people sitting from different sects ,religion . what will you likely to serve them , the food which can consumed by every human or meat ? 
 Langar - where every human no matters  of caste and religion can have food sitting in Pangat without any discrimination .


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## lionprinceuk (Jan 10, 2012)

ok, but I heard in bhatra gurdwaras and in the dals they actually do meat langar.

And also mahaprashad is prashad as well!!

icecreammunda


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 10, 2012)

Ishna Ji..Maha means SUPER..hence Parshaad is Vegetarain (ghee/water/atta/sugar) so Maha or Super parshaad is MEAT !!
Just like you and me are just "purash"..human..but then there are Maha-purash..lol....
Its Nihung Bollas or lingo....


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jan 11, 2012)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*



Lion_Prince_Jatinder said:


> I will try and guide you.
> 
> You may not like jhatka and sukha, but is a part of kshatri dharam of the Khalsa.
> 
> For those who practise kshatri dharam, these practises are required! And a Khalsa without kshatria dharam might as well be Brahmins lol !




Lion Prince Jatinder ji,

I have been stewing over things you have written for a while now and I really feel the need to break the rules I have set for myself and demand, er, ask politely, for your honest response.

You talk about this Kshatriya dharam stuff a lot.  My understanding is that caste and varna have no place in Sikhi.  Those of us who are Amritdhari explicitly renounce those and they have vanished forever from our lives.  My dharam is that of a Khalsa sant-sipahi.  I fulfill that very imperfectly, of course, but I do try.  "Kshatria dharam" has no place in my life.

Before you say that I might as well be a brahmin, permit me to present my credentials:

I am an Amritdhari Sikh, an aspiring Khalsa.  In addition to that which is required of all Khalsa, I have sacrificed a husband, a son, two daughters and two brothers to Guru Khalsa Panth in one blow.  I also nearly achieved shaheedi myself, but my destiny is different and I am still here, living in this body.  I also dispatched at least one and possibly more of the enemies of the Sikh Kaum to hell.  I have authored a blog, The Road To Khalistan, which has the details of the above events, writing about them at a time when I could find no personal accounts written in English.  I continued writing the blog as a place to attempt to build up the Panth by writing of current Sikh issues in ways that I hoped would help unite and strengthen the Sikh Kaum.  Specifically, I have advocated for an independent Sikh homeland and the cessation of the murder of our daughters.  I have recently retired after my second husband's death, to give me the opportunity to regroup and regain some physical health.  I will not speak of sewa I have performed.  That is private and better left unsaid.

I neither hunt nor eat meat, although I do not condemn those who do.  If no other nourishment were available, I would see nothing wrong in sustaining my physical life by meat.  My shastars have no tilak of blood, and they have served me and the Panth well. 

I am not boasting or trying to raise myself up.  These are just the simple facts of my life.  

This is what I have given to the Panth.

I now ask you to please present your credentials.  What have you given to the Panth that gives you the authority to tell other Sikhs, including myself,  that we "might as well be brahmins."


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## lionprinceuk (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*



Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> Lion Prince Jatinder ji,
> 
> I have been stewing over things you have written for a while now and I really feel the need to break the rules I have set for myself and demand, er, ask politely, for your honest response.
> 
> ...



Well, my reply may have to be long as well. By the way, are you the person in the avatar? 0

Let me start off by saying I consider myself a traditional jatt sikh, who follows traditions and culture. 

The next part to say is this: I did originally get into the Lahore Singh Sabha style SGPC mainstream ?Orthodox? sikhi or Sikh"ism" as they call it, but then, because of my inquisitive nature and research, I ended up swaying towards traditional sikhi of the puraatan sampradaiye, where the Khalsa fauj and amrit-dharis are non other than the notorious Nihang Singhs lol . Slowly, I changed from being a Sikh or Sikh"ism" religion, to being a sikh of sikh traditions and thinking. 

It has been a benefit for me overall, as traditional sikhi very much merges with my punjabi and indian culture as opposed to contradictions between religion and culture that followers of the mainstream Singh Sabha / SGPC encounter!

I have also forsaken religion, which was an ideology gained by our ancestors during the British Raaj, and instead I concentrate towards dharam and spirituality. 

That is my background, I will add the reasons for kshatriya dharam soon!

-------------------------------------------------------------

Well firstly, just read the bani quote from Guru Gobind Singh.

Next see the traditions that have been preserved in the barracks/dals of the Khalsa army, practised by the akali Nihangs.

Vegertianism in sikhi is no problem, sampradaiye like the Udasis, and Nirmalas and Sewapanthis can practises vegetarianism.

However the Khalsa Nihangs, they follow kshatriya dharm. Kshatriya being a warrior. Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth both teach us kshatri dharam. 
The traditions of the khalsa and even our last names being Singh, all come from kshartiya dharam, even ancien kshatriya dharam. 

Guru Gobind Singh comes from Sodhi khatris, who are descended from ancient kshatriyas going all the way to Raam Chander as part of the Surajbanshi/ Suryavanshi/ sun dynasty. As shown in Bacchitar Natak.

Lastly, I also go to Shastar vidiya akharas, run by the last master of the art, Nihang Niddar Singh. The art is very much in line with kshattri dharam.

Why are there distortions away from kshatriya dharam?
Firstly, khanday dee pahul tradition slipped out of Nihang Khalsa which was under control of Buddha Dal at that time and still is. Naamdharis used this tradition to use khanda dee pahul tomake their own amritdharis who were vegeterians, and many sources claim naamdharis to be the first to give khanday dee pahul to women! And I say, khanday dee pahul, and not other forms of amrit like kripan da amrit given to women in Hazoor Sahib.

Then I see that Nirmalay started giving Khanday dee Pahul as well. Soon, in the British Raaj, alot of jathebandis popped up giving khanday dee pahul with their own maryadas, but lacking lineage to Guru Gobind Singh and the dals of the Khalsa army. Some had mixed vegeterianism into the mix. 

You can see that various samrpadaiye kept their sattvik lifestyles yet took on the form of Khalsa, but not exactly. For example, the kamarkasa became a gatra worn around the shoulder. The warrior karas, or binee keh shastar, became little fashionable karas to wear while doing tabla.

Other ancient traditions like chatka, and prashad like mahaprashad, are objectionable to those who do not follow kshattri dharam. Not all sikhs have to be Khalsa Singhs.

But seriously, khanday dee pahul is given very loosely now outside the dals to any stranger. The nihangs even consider Singh Sabha amrit dharis being Malesh (ie dirty foreigners strangers) as the Lahori Singh Sabha conduct is considered strange and definetly anti-kshatriya, and seems almost certain to be influenced by the Protestant Christian thinking of the Education the leading Singh Sabha authors had.

The Varna thing is the last thing I need to describe, give me some time :-

---------------------------------

The 4 varnas just described the 4 main different roles in society.

Brahmins being the ones who learn and study and teach.

Kshatriyas being the ones who run government and defend dharam and are the warriors.

Vaishyas are more worker type people, farming, shop merchants etc.

Theres also Shudra, which is more labourer work.

Anyway, in ancient times you could move between the varnas according to the type of work you did or your lifestykle, etc.

Then people have hijacked the system to make people higher and lower.

In bani, Guru ji talks about all the varnas as being one. This is true, as really we are all human beings, and can unite!

Anyways, by becoming a Khalsa you become a kshatriya, a warrior. Doesn't really matter which background you came from, or what culture you follow, but thats what one is. Its khanday dee pahul. So obviously a kshatriya tradition using the sword weapon. 

Our equivalent to Brahmin in the sense of being a teacher and knowledgeable is the sant sadhu sampradaiye, such as the Nirmalas and Udasis.

The point is, the function of Khalsa is to be kshartiyas who protect dharam. But to bring things like vegetrianism and making kripans and karas into fashion items is a bit of Brahmin thinking, perhaps in the satvikk lifestyle thinking, or just plain vaishnoo thinking, perhaps associated with the B rahmins, especially in bani where Guru Nanak discusses with the meat eater hating Brahmin at Kurukshetra. 

To behave only like saint and not warrior doesn't require khanday dee pahul to be taken. It has been turned into almost a christian baptism where its required to be taken to call oneself sikh, perhaps SGPC maryada is a good example for this. And this maryada is not very respecting of the Guru's puraatan rehat.

Finally, there were even amrit-dharis in the British Indian forces who took Khanday dee Pahul pledging allegiance to the emperor/empress of the empire (ie the king/queen of england). So Khanday dee pahul tradition has been distorted in many ways outside the dals of the Khalsa.

Oh I also saw your sant-sipahi comment: sant - sipahi seems to be a concept taken and probably influenced by the onward christian soldiers thinking. Again, Guru Gobind Singh uses kshatriya dharam, in bani was well. He uses the term chhatri.

Kshatriya dharam is what strengthend the Khalsa, and how the Akalis, nihangs gave so much shaheedi in our history, and of course they would have has knowledge of shastarvidiya.

If you read up the history, you will see a lot of sikhi was influenced by Christian thinking during the Bitish Raaj. You can see in translations terms such as lord and God allude to this.

When we forget our traditions, we become coconuts/ABCDs to be honest!

Another thing to add - ok i forgot, when I remember I shall post it in here lolz


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## bscheema (Jan 12, 2012)

Lion Prince Jatinder ji

i would like to  kno more  what does Shri Guru Granth sahib teaches us


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jan 12, 2012)

> Guru Gobind Singh comes from Sodhi khatris, who are descended from ancient kshatriyas going all the way to Raam Chander as part of the Surajbanshi/ Suryavanshi/ sun dynasty. As shown in Bacchitar Natak.


 
From the Fourth Guru to the Ninth Guru, all were from the same family lineage. What is important for Sikh? The Lineage of Nanak or the lineage of Ramchandra? It's not who you are, but what you do that defines you. And Guru Gobind Singh left everything behind to take up the name of Singh and united KHalsa in one family.



> Many sources claim naamdharis to be the first to give khanday dee pahul to women!


 
If Amrit was a men's only club, what was Mata Sahib Kaur allowed to be there, why was she not stopped by Guru when she put the patashay in Baatae?



> Brahmins being the ones who learn and study and teach.
> 
> Kshatriyas being the ones who run government and defend dharam and are the warriors.
> 
> ...


 


> Anyways, by becoming a Khalsa you become a kshatriya, a warrior. Doesn't really matter which background you came from, or what culture you follow, but thats what one is. Its khanday dee pahul. So obviously a kshatriya tradition using the sword weapon.
> 
> Our equivalent to Brahmin in the sense of being a teacher and knowledgeable is the sant sadhu sampradaiye, such as the Nirmalas and Udasis.


 
So you mean to say that as Khalsa, we don't need to care about Gyan because we are Kshatriyas and not learners?

Remember Guru Gobind Singh recited Baani along with KHande di Pahul. He Himself prepared the Amrit and He Himself took it.



> To behave only like saint and not warrior doesn't require khanday dee pahul to be taken.


 
None of the Panj Pyare was actively serving as a soldier. And they didn't give up their honest, hard working profession either.



> Kshatriya dharam is what strengthend the Khalsa, and how the Akalis, nihangs gave so much shaheedi in our history, and of course they would have has knowledge of shastarvidiya.


 
Agreed that lot of Sikhs are not well versed in Shastra Vidya, but you are clearly missing the point of Amrit.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*

The avatar picture is a cartoon drawing of me wearing a Bersih T-shirt in solidarity with the people of Malaysia.



> Let me start off by saying I consider myself a traditional jatt sikh, who follows traditions and culture.


Consider yourself whatever you like, but Sikhi is a rejection of traditional jatt culture.

I have known many Nihung Singhs and have always been treated with the greatest respect.  

Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji maharaj is our Guru, not Dasam Granth.  The concept of sant-sipahi goes back to Guru Hargobind ji and has nothing to do with Christianity or any other religion. However you try to squirm out of it, "kshatriya" is a Hindu varna term and has no place in Sikhi.  


You use many words, but have not answered my question:



> What have you given to the Panth that gives you the authority to tell  other Sikhs, including myself,  that we "might as well be brahmins."


If you ask, I will post a photograph of me, although I'm not sure of the purpose.


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## lionprinceuk (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: To celebrate or not?*



Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> The avatar picture is a cartoon drawing of me wearing a Bersih T-shirt in solidarity with the people of Malaysia.
> 
> Consider yourself whatever you like, but Sikhi is a rejection of traditional jatt culture.



I would like to find out how sikhi is a rejection of any culture! I am sure a sikh can be from any tradition or culture. Please show me where sikhi has opposed the culture or a sampradaiye such as jatts. 

Rejecting traditions just takes sikhs away from following traditional sikhi the way sikhs such as Nihangs and other sampradaiye do. Eventually everything becomes corrupted.



Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> I have known many Nihung Singhs and have always been treated with the greatest respect.
> 
> Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji maharaj is our Guru, not Dasam Granth.  The concept of sant-sipahi goes back to Guru Hargobind ji and has nothing to do with Christianity or any other religion. However you try to squirm out of it, "kshatriya" is a Hindu varna term and has no place in Sikhi.



The Nihangs have no qualm with individuals not trying to destroy their traditions. Just the same I have no qualms with anyone who doesn't attack my jatt traditions.

In the Khalsa ie the nihangs, Adi Guru Granth Sahib, Dasam Guru Granth Sahib and Sarbloh Guru Granth Sahib are all collectively followed as Guru as well. Of course Adi Guru Granth Sahib is Guru and Isht Dev, cannot deny that.

are you perhaps talking about miri-piri for the sant-sipahi history?

If kshatriya dharam has no place in sikhi, then who is going to tell Guru ji this? Guru ji uses the term shattri many times.



Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> You use many words, but have not answered my question:
> 
> 
> If you ask, I will post a photograph of me, although I'm not sure of the purpose.



I am not asking for a photo, I just liked the drawing! 

I consider Khalsa to be based on shattri dharam. I will try and find more information. There is actually decent information in a book that describes Hazoor Sahib that goes in depth about aspects of the Khalsa.

I am going to use bani to support some of my statements:

ਸਵੈਯਾ ॥
सवैया ॥
SWAYYA

ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਕੋ ਪੂਤ ਹੌ ਬਾਮਨ ਕੋ ਨਹਿ ਕੈ ਤਪੁ ਆਵਤ ਹੈ ਜੁ ਕਰੋ ॥ ਅਰੁ ਅਉਰ ਜੰਜਾਰ ਜਿਤੋ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਕੋ ਤੁਹਿ ਤਿਆਗ ਕਹਾ ਚਿਤ ਤਾ ਮੈ ਧਰੋ ॥
छत्री को पूत हौ बामन को नहि कै तपु आवत है जु करो ॥ अरु अउर जंजार जितो ग्रहि को तुहि तिआग कहा चित ता मै धरो ॥
I am the son of a Kshatriya and not of a Brahmin who may instruct for performing severe austerities; how can I absorb myself in the embarrassments of the world by leaving you;

ਅਬ ਰੀਝ ਕੈ ਦੇਹੁ ਵਹੈ ਹਮ ਕਉ ਜੋਊ ਹਉ ਬਿਨਤੀ ਕਰ ਜੋਰ ਕਰੋ ॥ ਜਬ ਆਉ ਕੀ ਅਉਧ ਨਿਦਾਨ ਬਨੈ ਅਤਿਹੀ ਰਨ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਜੂਝ ਮਰੋ ॥੨੪੮੯॥
अब रीझ कै देहु वहै हम कउ जोऊ हउ बिनती कर जोर करो ॥ जब आउ की अउध निदान बनै अतिही रन मै तब जूझ मरो ॥२४८९॥
Whatever request I am making with my folded hands, O Lord ! kindly be graceful and bestow this boon on me that when ever my end comes, then I may die fighting in the battlefield.2489.


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## lionprinceuk (Jan 13, 2012)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> From the Fourth Guru to the Ninth Guru, all were from the same family lineage. What is important for Sikh? The Lineage of Nanak or the lineage of Ramchandra? It's not who you are, but what you do that defines you. And Guru Gobind Singh left everything behind to take up the name of Singh and united KHalsa in one family.


 Of course, but even the term Singh was used by many kshatriya beforehand, and still is. And united Khalsa is what happened, united the Akalis from Guru Hagobind with new soldiers forming the Khalsa army.



Kanwaljit Singh said:


> If Amrit was a men's only club, what was Mata Sahib Kaur allowed to be there, why was she not stopped by Guru when she put the patashay in Baatae?


 
I think someone who is close to the dals here can explain how often khanday dee pahul is given to women in the dals, I think it is rare, and was never done in the past. I have only seen the name Sahib Devan seen even in letters and hukumnamas written by her. 

It is coming out from some sources the term Kaur for sikh women became popular during the times of the British, to bring gender equality. Alot of sikh women had the last name Devi actually.

And I am not talking about all amrit, or inner amrit, just khanday dee pahul. Also khanda happens to be a masculine symbol whereas kirpaan is a feminine symbol. Perhaps this is why kirpaan da amrit is given to women at Hazoor Sahib?




Kanwaljit Singh said:


> So you mean to say that as Khalsa, we don't need to care about Gyan because we are Kshatriyas and not learners?


 I am not meaning to say that at all! There are even brahmgyanis in the dal panth! shastar vidiya also requires and creates gyaan, and also the the reading of bani as well as knowing lots of history and skills like ayurveda are also gyaan. Also in for nihangs, the gyaan is not restricted to what a jathebandi tells one to follow!



Kanwaljit Singh said:


> Remember Guru Gobind Singh recited Baani along with KHande di Pahul. He Himself prepared the Amrit and He Himself took it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am pretty sure the panj pyaray became soldiers after taking khanday dee pahul!? Not all Singhs gave up their grihast dharam when they took khanday dee pahul, some return home after war, others live and are even raised in the dals. It was once tradition to give ones oldest son to the Khalsa and live in the dal.

Khanday dee Pahul is stirred by the sword! Why would Guru ji give khanday dee pahul to those who will not protect dharam? Why wear the uniform of a kshatriya for show, like people do now with the kirpaans and karas?

No point in having the guise of a warrior if one does not follow the dharam and conduct of a warrior!
Same applies to acting like a sant-sadhu without following the dharam and lifestyle of one!


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jan 13, 2012)

> I think someone who is close to the dals here can explain how often khanday dee pahul is given to women in the dals, I think it is rare, and was never done in the past. I have only seen the name Sahib Devan seen even in letters and hukumnamas written by her.
> 
> It is coming out from some sources the term Kaur for sikh women became popular during the times of the British, to bring gender equality. Alot of sikh women had the last name Devi actually.


 
Many people have names which they are more famous with. E.g. Jaspreet Singh becomes just Jassi. And the last queen of Sikh Empire (at time of Ranjeet Singh and before the establishment of the British) was Rani Jind Kaur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jind_Kaur)



> And I am not talking about all amrit, or inner amrit, just khanday dee pahul. Also khanda happens to be a masculine symbol whereas kirpaan is a feminine symbol. Perhaps this is why kirpaan da amrit is given to women at Hazoor Sahib?


 
I think other Gurudwaras following the Hazoori Rehat do a lot of other things. In one of those, they said that for bibis to reach mukti, they would have to be reborn as Singhs and take up the Khande di Pahul.



> I am pretty sure the panj pyaray became soldiers after taking khanday dee pahul!? Not all Singhs gave up their grihast dharam when they took khanday dee pahul, some return home after war, others live and are even raised in the dals. It was once tradition to give ones oldest son to the Khalsa and live in the dal.
> 
> Khanday dee Pahul is stirred by the sword! Why would Guru ji give khanday dee pahul to those who will not protect dharam? Why wear the uniform of a kshatriya for show, like people do now with the kirpaans and karas?


 
That's the point. Hindus had very well defined society roles, whereas KHalsa has to fit in all of them and more. The lines have been blurred. Khalsa = Pure Human. And a man has to serve his parents, earn his living, protect his family and remember God. Simple as that.

I think the other need of the hour is having grasp of politics. We Sikhs lack that big way. We should have a leader in each one of us who is a great leader and statesman.


----------



## lionprinceuk (Jan 27, 2012)

http://ramblingsofasikh.blogspot.com/2012/01/how-far-and-in-what-ways-did-british.html

Ramblings of a Sikh
The greatest wonder is that each individual knows that Death is the ultimate truth and yet believes that he is immortal

TUESDAY, 24 JANUARY 2012

How far and in what ways did British rule in India influence Sikh identity?


The three hundred years of colourful Sikh history had not generated an all-encompassing definition of a Sikh. However, the hundred years succeeding 1849 saw the intentional and incidental impact of British rule on Sikh identity. During that century there was a systematic undermining of Sikh traditions and practices. At the same time a reformatory movement grew in response to colonial influences and internal disorder. The Singh Sabha supplied the definition of a Sikh within three decades.[1]

Prior to the British Raj the Sikh Panth was united in its devotion to the Gurus and Sikhs occupied diverse cultural locations and articulated a multiplicity of identities.[2] One of the main impacts on Sikh identity during this period has its origins in the history and etymology of religion. In the 3rd century, Lactantius, an early Christian author, defined religion according to the Latin term reliagre, as meaning to bind, in this case being bound to God.[3]  This was by far the most significant of all the ancient definitions, as it is this Hellenistic Christian transformation of the term religio that remains highly significant in our attempt to understand the way in which the concept of religion was used to help mould Sikh identity.[4] 

Nonetheless, even if Lactantius’ definition of religion is not appealed to directly, religion becomes a matter of adherence to particular doctrines or beliefs rather than the preservation of ancestral traditions.[5] In essence, as a result of the Singh Sabha reformation movement the focus of Sikh thought was shifted from orthopraxy to orthodoxy.[6] In short, the Singh Sabha movement transformed a spiritual path into a religion. Nonetheless, orthopraxy, the concept of preserving ancestral traditions is best described by Cicero’s definition of the term relegare.[7] Cicero’s definition is the closest Western notion of what pre-colonial Sikhi really was rather than the definition of religio as provided to us by Lactantius.[8]

The meaning and denotation of the term religion tends to follow Lactantius’ etymology, thereby constructing a Christianised model of religion that strongly emphasises theist belief and creates a dualism, a fundamental difference, between the human world and the transcendent world of the divine, something that was not present within Sikh thought prior-1849. For instance, it was the incorrect translation of ik onkar as ‘there is one God,’ by Ernest Trumpp in 1877 that injected the notion of God, in an Abrahamic sense, into Sikh thought which consequently created a paradigm of theist belief and a division between the human world and the transcendent world.[9] 

Furthermore, we must understand that Descartes heavily influences Trumpp’s understanding of ik onkar. Descartes deduced, via analogy, that there was no doubt of God’s existence because the very thought of ‘Godness’ is something that could not be conceived out of a human mind as the concept of God is too perfect. Therefore, the grounding for Cartesian certainty is located within the human mind. Descartes argues from his own identity and then projects this same kind of methodological scepticism towards postulating the existence of a God. Trumpp takes this understanding and uses this to understand the Adi Guru Granth Sahib Ji. As a result Trumpp creates a distance between ‘God’ and the individual.[10] N.G Barrier indicated that Trumpp’s unapologetic dismissal of Guru Nanak Dev Ji had an influential effect on Sikh mentalities. The publication of Trumpp’s text provided a call to the emerging intelligentsia to protect and respond to the attacks from foreign powers.[11] It was this emerging intelligentsia that would provide the driving for for the Singh Sabha movement. This in itself is not the problem; the problem was that the Singh Sabhaists responded to the external pressures to define who they were within the definitions , lexis and terminology that the British had defined rather than deconstructing these notions and re-constructing them upon their own grounds.

On the other hand, a traditional translation of ik onkar would deduce that the term onkar is the experiential unfolding of existence, experienced subjectively and observed objectively in a number of ways. Before the beginning, the Ik, which is representative of absolute reality, was one and non-dual. It desired to manifest itself, through "I am only one - may I become many."[12] This was the primal cause of creation through an unstruck vibration which eventually became sound (struck vibration), and this sound is Om or Ong (pronounced AUM). Through this primal sound vibration existence began to manifest as a continuum, a wave of creation, sustainment and destruction. [13] The suffix "kar"(form), represents this infinite continuum.

Furthermore, ik onkar represents the four states of all manifested creation. These are creation, preservation, destruction and re-birth. This applies to both those which manifests in time, such as thoughts and subjective experience, just as much all that manifests in time and space, including the Universe itself. Onkar also represents the four states of the Consciousness.  The three sounds in Om (A-U-M) represent jagrat, swapna and sushupti. The last state, turiya, is the pure awareness within which all three states are contained.[14]

The miss-translation of the term ik onkar is just one of the fundamental differences between Sikhi and Sikhism. However, another important difference was that Sikhi viewed the Adi Granth, the Dasam Granth and the Sarbloh Granth at par. However, Singh Sabha leadership, in response to the miss-translation of the Adi Granth by Trumpp, was to radically alter this equilibrium.[15] The Dasam Granth, which enshrined the pracitces of Sikhi, such as dheg, chatka and respect toward Chandi Ma, were gradually eased out of everyday Sikh traditions, partly in order to heighten the importance of the Adi Granth. Furthermore by the early 20th century it no longer enjoyed the textual hegemony it once enjoyed. In withdrawing the Dasam Granth from religious circulation and the standardization of the Adi Granth, as a result of the printing press (and Teja Singh Bhasauria), the message being driven home was simple and straightforward: the metaphysical and cultural assumptions of Sikhi as sanctioned by the Dasam Ganth, such as the strong belief in the role of avatars, conceptions of the divine in feminine terms and the consumption of cannabis in order to connect to existence were no longer permissible.[16] Furthermore, it ensured the purge of the heterogeneous nature of Sikhi, and ensured the central role of just the Adi Granth thus paving the road for the Singh Sabha to create life-cycle rituals that were to help define a Sikh within the Singh Sabha mind frame.

This consequently helped to create the Sikh religion known as Sikhism, this is one of the most obvious illustrations of the change of Sikh identity. The creation of Sikhism was part of the trend that took place during the 19th century in the West when western scholars added the suffix, ‘-ism,’ to the names of numerous spiritual orders.[17] As a result of P.J Marshall’s and Romila Thapar’s examination of the production of the category of Hinduism, Oberoi notes that Europeans tended to construct images of Indian religions in the mould of Christianity, stressing that the ‘-isms,’ – Hinduism and Sikhism – were largely the product of the European intellectual frameworks of the late Enlightenment.[18]

In addition, within most Indian languages such as Punjabi, Urdu and Hindi there is no noun for religion as signifying a single uniform and homogenized community of believers.[19] The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis dictates that the structure of language affects the ways in which its speakers conceptualize the world. Therefore we can deduce that the construction and introduction of a religion, in this case Sikhism, into a society that did not posses such a noun created something far from the truth.[20]

At first this simple change of lexis, Sikhi to Sikhism, may be seen as two different names for the same tradition. However, this is not the case for it was Sikh reformers in the 19th and 20th centuries who, for the first time ever, labelled many practices and certain forms of Sikh identity, that were accepted under Sikhi, as unacceptable.[21]

However, to be able to understand what it exactly was that the Singh Sabha edited and reformed we have to look at some of the very first European accounts of the Sikhs and early Sikh art. This is because it is here that we are met with deviations from what is today accepted as the doctrines of the Sikhs, as established by the Singh Sabha. However, we must bear in mind that many European observers of the Sikhs were far more occupied with following the conventions established by Orientalism scholarship in India rather than documenting the behaviour of the practitioners.[22] The accounts provided by European observers were used by the Singh Sabha to endorse their opinion that Sikhi was deviating from what they deemed to be the ideal state of Sikhism.

For example, appendix A is a 19th century cover to a Guru Granth Sahib Ji manuscript, commissioned by the Sraddha family, the direct decedents of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, created by Miha Singh of Kashmir and depicts a twelve-petalled lotus.[23] At the centre of this lotus is Sodhi Bhan Singh worshipping Maha-Kal and Maha-Kali. The Gurus with their wives and children are shown in the ten petals surrounding and the two remain petals house ancestral figures in the Sodhi’s guru-lineage.[24] However, what is interesting to note is not just the depiction of Maha-Kal and Maha-Kali, which are today seen as belonging to Hinduism, but also the tilak that is adorned on the heads of each Guru. This image is completely alien from appendix B, C and D, modern day depictions of the Sikh Gurus, in which the individuals are all shown to be saint like in appearance, eyes closed and certainly not bearing the tilak. The difference in art is just but one way of tracing the impact that the Singh Sabha had on Sikh identity. For art mirrored the practices and accepted norms of the Sikh tradition and as these traditions changed so to did Sikh art.

Furthermore, Lieutenant Colonel James Browne writes in 1788 in his treatise to John Motteux, the chairman of the East India company, about numerous different types of Sikhs, describing degh-drinking, martially orientated Akali-Nihang Sikhs and the more aesthetic Nanakpanthi Sikhs.[25] This is but one of the many accounts that illustrates the heterogeneous nature of the Sikhs. Yet, it was the British fascination of census’s that, to an extent, helped to fuel the Singh Sabha’s fetish with creating a homogenous identity for the Sikhs. For example, during the 1891 census of Punjab some 1,344,862 Sikhs declared themselves to be Hindu.[26] 


Furthermore, in the census report provided by Russel Robert Vane, Sikhi was seen as nothing more than a Hindu sect.[27] It was the pressure exerted by the British and the assimilative forces of Hindu groups such as the Arya Samaj, who extensively campaigned with various means to illustrate that Sikhs were a sub-category of the Hindu faith, that caused the creation of a reformatory movement that helped push toward a homogenous Sikh identity.[28] This battle against assimilative Hindu forces has been immortalised in the words of Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, a Singh Sabha Sikh scholar, who proclaimed through a vernacular tract that, Ham Hindu Nahin.[29] It was these four words that added to what was essentially the basis of the Singh Sabha movement. 

However, there was another reason for why the Singh Sabha was determined to create a homogenous Sikh identity. This was due to the Hindu connotations within pre-British Raj Sikhi, especially within the Nihang order. Many of the earliest accounts only refer to Akali-Nihangs as Sikhs, as these individuals were the most visible due to, ‘their blue dresses, their high-peaked turbans, the rings of steel, which they wear as the peculiar emblems of their devotion.’[30]  The Nihangs were the oldest and most respected order within the Sikh community. [31] The creation of the Nihangs came hand-in-hand with the construction of the Akal Takht – a durbar that was far larger than any of those that belonged to the Mughal Emperors at the time.[32] The Nihangs also have mythical origins that date back some millienia in the army of Chandikha.[33] Nonetheless, the Nihangs did not receive their distinctive dress until the amrit-sanchar of 1699, when the tenth guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, created the Khalsa.[34] Unfortunately, it was the very vanguard of the Khalsa who were most affected by the Singh Sabha. For instance the Champlain of the East India Company, James Coley, notes that, ‘these demonicas posses an awful influence over the people, being regarded as demi-gods, and when any public emergency arises, a conviction of Akalees is held at Umritsar, and whatever they decree is considered to be the voice of heaven and acted upon with universal enthusiasm.’[35]

However, because the Nihangs were the biggest threat to the British Raj, their influence was reduced. For example, it was the Akali-Nihangs who placed the largest threat to the British during the Anglo-Sikh wars. During the First Anglo-Sikh War (1846), at the battle of Sobraon the Nihangs suffered a tremendous defeat. However, they had succeeded in psychologically scaring the British. James Coley comments that, “the Seekhs, they say, fought furiously; and there were numbers of naked Akalees among them, whose presence maddened them the more and who are represented to have looked like fiends.”[36] The surviving Akali-Nihangs were betrayed by the Sikh state of Patiala, in which 32,000 Nihangs were killed. As a result the remaining Nihangs travelled south to find haven in the Deccan and would remain in self-imposed exile for 12 years.[37] It is here, even to this day, that practices of the Sikh tradition still exist. 

It was in response to the Anglo-Sikh wars that certain laws were past in order to lessen the authority of the Nihangs and to weaken their sphere of influence as much as possible. Viceroy Lord Lytton passed laws such as the Indian Arms Act (XI) of 1878 that ensured that no person could carry arms, except under special exemption or by virtue of a license. As a result the Nihangs could not carry arms and of course the British did not allow any Indian possess a weapon unless they had been deemed ‘civilised’.[38]

In addition, as a result of early observers of the Sikhs only ever referring to the Akali-Nihangs as Sikhs, there was a common misunderstanding that the Sikhs were dying out. This view is endorsed by the likes of Jagjit Singh, Avtar Singh and Rajiv A. Kapur who all suggest that after the annexation of Punjab in 1849 Sikhs were in decline and in a state of decadence, confusion and uncertain about their identity.[39] Ernest Trumpp endorsed this opinion and in 1877 wrote that, ‘Sikhism is a waning religion, that will soon belong to history.’[40] Furthermore, Robert Needham Cust, a British colonial administrator, was of the opinion that the remaining Sikh institutions should be pushed towards their ultimate death.[41] In actual fact the census reports from 1855 and 1868 both illustrate that the number of Sikhs was not in decline.[42] However, in both cases and up until the census of 1933, the definition of the category Sikh remained unclear.[43] Moreover, the belief that there was no decline in Sikh numbers was simply a myth created by the loose definition of the Sikhs, as created by the British.[44]

However, by the time of the 1911 census, the Singh Sabha had successfully established a definition of a Sikh as being anyone who maintained the panj kakar and abstained from tobacco.[45] The downfall of this definition was that it automatically regarded vast swathes of the Sikh community as non-Sikhs including – Nanakpanthis, Sewapanthis, Udhasis, and Nirmalas. 

One of the British Raj’s most profound and direct influences upon Sikh identity was undoubtedly as a result of the British Army. As a result of prowess shown by the Sikhs during the Anglo-Sikh wars, the British were convinced that Sikhs were militaristic race.[46] As early as 1846, two Sikh regiments were raised from the annexed trans-Sutlej territories. This was the start of a constant stream of Sikh recruits following the annexation of Punjab. However, it was upon being enlisted that a Sikh recruit was asked to undergo the initiation rite, and it was mandatory for him to maintain the external symbols of the faith. Regiments employed granthis to conduct Sikh ritual observances, even though the Nihangs were traditionally the only individuals allowed to conduct Sikh ceremonies such as amrit, as a result the authority of the Nihangs was lessened further. 


Furthermore, there was a deep conviction within the army hierarchy that the martial prowess of the Sikhs flowed mystically out of their religious observances and beliefs. It was feared that if Sikh traditions were not upheld, the ability of Sikh soldiers to act as a ‘fighting machine’ might rapidly deteriorate. Philistine army commanders enforced an extremely narrow, functional and mechanistic definition of Sikh tradition and concluded that only those who carried the five symbols were deemed genuine Sikhs.[47]However, this illustrates an unmindful approach of the complex nature of the Sikh tradition.

Further British influence upon Sikh identity was made possible through the rapid introduction of railways, roads, the electric telegraph, postage facilities and the printing press. This transformation in communication ensured that the Singh Sabha could through their propaganda, endorse certain practices and oppose others. For instance, an editor of the Singh Sabha’s newspaper, the Khalsa Akbar, asked its readers ‘Will the beloved of the Khalsa Quam [community], the firm followers of the tenth Guru, Gobind Singh Ji, ever accept anyone else as a Guru except the ten Gurus and the Adi Granth? The answer was: Never.’[48] This was but part of the propaganda campaign that has led to the controversial debate around the authenticity of the Dasam Granth.[49] This debate originates from the Dasam Granth’s removal from the Akal Takht in the 1940s by the SGPC, the successors of the Singh Sabha movement.[50] However, historical evidence talks louder than Singh Sabha propaganda, and the Anadpuri Dasam Granth can be shown to have certainly been compiled in the Guru’s court for it contains a colophon of 1695/1696 AD as well as numerous handwritten pages by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.[51]

In addition, the Dasam Granth had since the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji played a pivotal role within Sikhi. Firstly, certain compositions that are recited during the amrit sanchar are taken directly from the Dasam Granth.[52] In addition, Charles Wilkins, a leading orientalist writer, wrote in 1781 that, ‘there stood also near the altar, on a low desk, a great book of a folio size [Dasam Granth], from which some portions are daily read in their divine service. It was covered with a blue mantle, on which were printed, in silver letters, some select passages of their law.’[53]

In addition, to re-balancing equilibrium that existed between the three main Granths, the Singh Sabha formulated life-cycle rituals, created distinctive symbols, established a religious hierarchy and purged a plurality of traditions and beliefs in order to remove the pluralist paradigm of Sikhi and replaced this with a highly uniform Sikh identity with its own distinctive rituals.[54]

An example of one of the life-cycle rituals that the Singh Sabha formulated is the Anand Karaj Act of 1909. The act legally codified a Sikh ritual, thereby providing Sikh separatism with government recognition. Furthermore, thanks to the new innovations brought to India by the British, such as the telegraph and the printing press, any opposition to this act was simply drowned out by an unending stream of tracts and newspapers that were packed with articles in defence of the Act.[55] Furthermore, it put an end to the old marriage rites that were deemed Hindu by the Singh Sabha, due to the central role of a Brahmin Pandit and a haavan.[56]

Furthermore, Dr G. W. Leitner, a Hungarian Orientalist, remarked how the numerous ascetic orders were key in local education.[57] The Udhasis would teach you meditation, the Nirmalas would teach you aryu-vedic science and the Nihangs would teach you shastar-vidiya. However, this changed for in Punjab the British Raj and the church advanced side by side in order to further Christianity and western education. As a result numerous British run schools, mission stations and church-sponsored schools were created, imparting western education that understood Sikhi to be highly mechanical and utilitarian in manner.[58] As a result, students who came out of these new schools posed a serious threat to the heterogeneous nature of Sikh identity and were some of the first practitioners of Sikhism.

In addition, the Singh Sabha created religious symbols that would differentiate Sikhs from other religions. For instance, the khanda, a modern symbol of the Sikhs, is often nowadays seen on the nishan sahib, a tall flag that is situated alongside any gurdwara, as depicted in appendix F. However, with the removal of the Dasam Granth and the Nihangs, the symbology of Sikhi was also removed and replaced with the khanda - a symbol that did not exist before the 20th century. This is because the trisul, a symbol of Sikhi, similar to the khanda, endorsed by the Nihangs had connotations with Shiv.[59]

However, it was due to the connotations of Hindu thought that were entwined within Sikh orthopraxy by practices such as chatka, dheg and shastar-puja that the Singh Sabha, in a bid to create a homogenous Sikh identity, wished to remove. Therefore, the Singh Sabha replaced the array of weapons, clearly visible in appendix H and I, which were typically depicted on nishan sahibs with the khanda. This is because shastar-puja was deemed Hindu due to the connotations of shastars with Chandi Ma.

It seemed that the Singh Sabha would not rest until any connotations with the Hindu tradition were removed. Moreover, in order to maintain control of Sikh practice the SGPC was created in 1925 under the Sikh Gurdwara Act.[60] This was in order to maintain and control the practices and traditions that took place within the confines of all of the gurdwaras. It simultaneously dispelled the old orders who until the passing of this act found haven in the numerous gurdwaras, either as teachers, priests or builders. The late jathedar of the Buddha Dal, Baba Santa Singh Ji comments that, ‘the S.G.P.C. are enemies of the vanguard of the Sikhs, the Akali-Nihangs. This is because only after making pledges did they get the Act passed. The Act was only passed on the promise that the Sikhs would not rise up against the British.’[61]

In nearing conclusion it must be noted that religion, as a systematized sociological unit claiming unbridled loyalty from its adherents and opposing an amorphous religious imagination, is a relatively recent development in the history of India and for the Sikhs.  The transition process of how Sikhi was replaced with Sikhism was achieved so by a new cultural elite that aggressively usurped the right to represent others within this newly homogenous tradition. Furthermore, it is clear the central role that the British played in constituting the homogenous Sikh identity was in order to create a loyal Sikh solider that would become the bulwark to British authority and loyal citizens of the Raj.[62] 

However, to be able to suggest that the British had a pre-planned strategy would be unjustifiable for whilst the colonial government of India insisted that the administration relinquish its control over Sikh shrines; the provincial administration in Punjab was pressing to retain control over major Sikh shrines and in fact constructed a church tower within the precincts of the Golden Temple, as seen in appendix J, in order to further missionary work.[63]

Overall, it was the new technology, such as the printing press, aggressive policies against any threat posed by certain Sikh orders, such as the anti-Nihang laws, and the conscription of vast swathes of Sikhs into the British Indian Army that set the platform for the Singh Sabha to create a homogenous Sikh identity. A sad result of this was that the rich culture that existed within Sikhi, which was equally at home with ascetics, home owners and warriors was purged into a religion that excluded any order that had connotations with anything that the Singh Sabha determined was not Sikh. In short, the Singh Sabha process created the world religion we see today as Sikhism. 




Appendix A


A 19th centuy cover to a Guru Granth Sahib Ji manuscript containing illustrations of Maha-Kal and Maha-Kali alongside the ten gurus. Nidar Singh Nihang and Parmjit Singh, In the Master’s Presence The Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib Volume 1: History (London: Kashi House, 2008):26

Appendix B


Sobha Singh, http://www.sobhasinghartist.com/pictures/available/large/aa9.jpg. An illustration of Siri Guru Nank Dev Ji



Appendix C


Sobha Singh, http://www.sobhasinghartist.com/pictures/available/large/aa12.jpg. An illustration of Siri Guru Tegh Bhadur Sahib Ji

Appendix D


Raja Ravi Varma, http://www.indianartcollectors.com/iabig_images/XXL_RajaRaviVerma-L-940440172.jpg. An illustration of Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.


Appendix E


This lithograph is taken from plate 5 of Emily Eden's 'Portraits of the Princes and People of India'. 1844. http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/apac/other/019xzz000000043u00005000.html


Appendix F


Photo of the two nishan sahibs, with the modern day khanda on the flag, situated in front of the Akal Takht at Siri Harminder Sahib. taken by John Bradley, 6/17/2004. http://www.johnhbradley.com/photos/061704armitsar/img_5339.jpg.


Appendix G


A trisula. http://www.britishmuseum.org/resear...h_the_collection_database.aspx&currentPage=12


Appendix H


Gurmukhi and Urdu script, A picture of Darbar Sahib in Amritsar. Faiz Press of Bhai Gujjar Singh, collected by J. Lockwood Kipling, ca. 1874, woodblock print, Victoria and Albert Museum.





Appendix H

An illustration of Guru Gobind Singh Ji travelling through Rajasthan en route to the Deccan. The Akali Nihang Singh carries his battle standard that contains a punch dagar, shield and sword rather than the modern day khanda. Nidar Singh Nihang and Parmjit Singh, In the Master’s Presence The Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib Volume 1: History (London: Kashi House, 2008):7


Appendix I




View of the Golden Temple and a partially constructed gothic-style clock tower, c. 1868-70. Albumen print, James Craddock. © Toor Collection


Glossary

Adi Granth – This is short for Adi Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the foremost Sikh scripture revered as the Eternal Guru.

Akal Takht – Throne of the immortal; the highest seat of temporal power situated in Amritsar directly opposite the Golden Temple. It was once the base of the Akali-Nihangs.

Nihang – The entire Sikh community were militarised to form an army of Nihangs in the late 17th century by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Amrit sanchar – The ceremony within which an individual is initiated into the Khalsa.

Anadpuri Dasam Granth – This refers to the Dasam Granth that was located in Anadpur Sahib and is an original copy from the court of Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Anand Karaj – The wedding ceremony that was originally created by the Nirankaris in the 1880s. It was eventually legitimized by the British authorities in 1909.

Arya Samaj – A Hindu reform movement that was founded in 1875.

Aryu-vedic science – A system of traditional medicine native to India.

Avatars – This refers to the numerous demi-gods and demi-goddesses that are nowadays thought to belong exclusively to the Hindu tradition. However, all Sikh scripture, including

the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, refer to numerous avatars. 

Baba Santa Singh Ji – The 13th leader of the Nihangs who sadly passed away in 2008 after being poisoned by the Indian government.

Brahmin Pandit – A religious priest of the highest cast of the Hindu tradition

Buddha Dal – This literally translates to veteran army; the informal name given to Guru HarGobind Ji’s Nihang army in honour of Baba Buddha Sahib Ji, a revered Sikh who first trained its warriors.

Chandikha  - The Hindu goddess of war and guardian of righteousness. An incarnation of Shiv Ji’s consort, Parabati.

Chatka – To kill with a single blow; refers to the practice of using a sword to decapitate an animal a offering to the guardian of righteousness, Chandi or Chandika. This tradition is still maintained by the Nihangs.

Dasam Ganth – The compositions of Guru Gobind Singh Ji compiled by Bhai Mani Singh Ji. Although revered by Sikh traditionalists as scripture equal to the Adi Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Sikh revisionists such as the Singh Sabha disdain it. It is placed on par with the Adi Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in any Nihang encampment.

Degh – The name given to the Nihang’s traditional consecrated drink. It is made by grinding almonds, black pepper, cardammon seeds, cannabis leaves and other ingredients in a mortar and pestle. The juices are extracted and mixed with water or milk to produce shaheedi degh, the martyrs drink. If sugar is added, it is dedicated to Hindu-Sikh martyrs. It unsweetened, it is dedicated to the loyal Muslims who died fighting for the Guru. It is still practiced widely amongst Nihangs.

Durbar – Royal court, in the context of the Guru’s court, it refers to the innermost area of a shrine which worshippers can enter and pay their respects.

Granthis – The raeder of a granth; title given to the individual who recites from the scriptures

Granths - Book

Gurdwara – Guru’s gate; a place of worship, which, at a minimum, houses the Adi Siri Guru
Granth Sahib Ji.

Guru – Darkness into light; a respectful title for a teacher or spiritual guide.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji – The tenth Guru of the Sikhs

Guru Nanak Dev Ji – The first Guru of the Sikhs

Haavan – Ritual fire offering; in early Sikh tradition, such offerings were made of decapitated goats and oxen in dedication to Chandi.

Ham Hindu Nahin – We are not Hindu.

Hinduism – The modern Hindu religion
Ik onkar – – The first symbol of the Adi Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Jathedar - leader

Khalsa – Pure; this term was used to signifiy the Sikhs loyal to the Guru.

Khalsa Akbar – One of the many newspapers that were created by the Singh Sabha

Khanda – This often refers to the modern symbol of the Sikhs. However, it can also refer to a double edged sword

Maha-Kal – Great Death; the fiercest form of Shiva and the chief inspiration of marital technique and adoration of Nihangs

Maha-Kali – The consort of Maha-Kal

Nanakpanthi – Followers of Guru Nanak Dev Ji within the old Sikh tradition

Nirmalas – They were specialist scholars and educationalists among the Sikh community and were, therefore, typically well versed in several languages, religious texts and philosophies.

Nishan sahib – A battle standard that marks the presence of the Sikhs

Panj kakar – The 5 symbols that are always on the person of a Khalsa Sikh. They are Kesh (unshorn hair), Kara (steel bracelet), Kirpan (sword), Kachera (breeches) and Kanga (comb).

Panth – Designates a group following particular teachers or doctrines

Relegare – The concept of preserving ancestral traditions as defined by Cicero.

Reliagre – Meaning to bind, typically to bind to God.

Religio – The Latin term for what today is known as religion

Sarbloh Granth – The work of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. It was removed by the Singh Sabha movement but still to this day the Nihang’s place it beside the Adi Granth and Dasam Granth

Sewapanthis – They are known for their close ties with Muslim communities and indiscriminate supply of free medicine and medical care. They were established by Bhai
Kanheya Lal in 1704

SGPC – The Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee, it was established by the British through the passing of the Sikh Gurdwara Act 1925.

Shastar-puja – The worship of weapons

Shastar-vidiya – The science of weapons

Shiv – The destructive aspect of the Formless Supreme Being; the primordial Indian deity and archetypal shaman who later became revered by the Nihangs as the primordial grandmaster of martial arts. In the Sarbloh Granth, Guru Gobind Singh Ji refers to the form of his Khalsa as being in the form of Shiv.

Sikh – Literally translates to ‘learner.’ However, it also designates the followers of the Gurus.

Sikh Panth – A group of Sikhs following a particular path

Sikhi – This is in reference to the older Sikh tradition that existed in its entirety prior to the Singh Sabha and the British Raj.

Sikhism – This is the modern religion that advocates the belief in One God and poses a homogenous Sikh identity.

Singh Sabha – The reformist movement of the 19th century.

Sodhi Bhan Singh – A descendent of Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji

Tilak – A mark worn on the forehead that signifies the third eye. This is often seen as a sign of enlightenment.

Trisul – The three pronged trident of Shiv Ji.

Udhasis – Followers of the Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s son, Baba Siri Chand. These were the detached ascetics.



Bibliography 

Primary Sources in English

Coley, James. The Sutlej Campaign of 1845-6. London: Smith Elder and Co., 1856.

Goswami, Amit. Qunatum Physics & Consciousness 1 of 3, November 21, 2011, Amit Goswami, Quantum Physics & Consciousness 1 of 3      - YouTube

M’Gregor, W.L. The History of the Sikhs. 1846. Reprint, Dehli: Rupa Publications India Pvt. Ltd., 2007.

Singh, Parmjit and Amandeep Singh Madra. Sicques, Tigers of Thieves, Eyewitness accounts of the Sikhs, 1606-1809 New York: Palgrave MacMillan, 2004.

Singh, Vir. Satwant Kaur. Patiala, Punjab University: 1900.

Siri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. http://www.sridasam.org

Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. http://www.searchgurbani.com

The Golden Temple Exhibition, Brunei Gallery SOAS, 14 July 2011 – 25 September 2011. http://www.goldentemple1588.com

The Sikh Gurdwaras Act, 1925. http://www.punjablaws.gov.pk/laws/33.html

Trump, Ernest. The Adi Granth or The Holy Scriptures of the Sikhs. 1877. Reprint, Dehli:
Munishiram Manoharlal Publishers, 2010.

Vane, Russell Robert. The Tribes and Castes of the Central Provinces of India. London: Macmillan, 1916.

Primary Sources in Punjabi

Bhasaur, Teja Singh. Panch Khalsa Rahit Nama. Bhasaur: Pnach Khalsa Divan, 1907.

Khalsa Akbar, 9 April 1887 and 18 September 1886.

Nabha, Khan Singh. Ham Hindu Nahin. Amritsar: Shri Guru Singh Sabha Shatabdi Committee, 1898.

Singh Ji, Baba Santa. Pracheen Panth Prakash Steek. (Amritsar: Singh Bros, 2004)


Secondary Suorces

Alexander, Michael and Sushila Anand. Queen Victoria’s Maharajah, Duleep Singh 1838-93. London: George Weidenfeld and Nicolson Limited, 1980.

Ballantyne, Tony. Between Colonialism and Diaspora, Sikh Cultural Formations in An Imperial World. London: Duke University Press, 2006.

Cunningham, J.D. History of the Sikhs. 1849. Reprint, Dehli: D.K. Publishers, 1996.

Grewal, J.S. From Guru Nanak to Maharaj Ranjit Singh, Essays in Sikh History. Amritsar: Guru Nanak University Press, 1972.

Grewal, J.S. Historical Perspectives on Sikh Identity. Patiala: Punjabi University Press, 1997.

James, Lawrence. Raj, The Making of British India. London: Time Warner Books UK, 2003.

Kapur, Rajiv A. Sikh Separatism: The Politics of Faith. London: Harper Collins Publishers, 1986.

Kerr, J. British Relationships with the Golden Temple, The Indian Economic and Social History Review, 21, (1984): 139-51

King, Richard. Orientalism and Religion, Postcolonial Theory, India and the Mystic East. London: Routledge, 2008.

McLeod, W.H. Essays in Sikh History, Tradition and Society. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2007.

McLeod, W.H. Prem Sumarag. The Testimony of a Sanatan Sikh. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2006.

Oberoi, Harjot. The Construction of Religious Boundaries. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1994.

Penner, Peter. Robert Needham Cust, A Personal Biography. New York: The Edwin Mellen Press, 1987.

Rand, Gavin. Martial Races and Imperial Subjects: Violence and Governance in Colonial India 1857-1914. London: Routledge, 2006.

Richard Fox, Lions of the Punjab. California, University of California Press, 1985.

Shackle, Christopher. Sikh Religion, Culture and Ethnicity. Edited by Gurharpal Singh and Arvind-Pal Mandair. Surrey: Curzon Press, 2001.

Singh, Avatar. The Singh Sabha Movement in The Origin and Development of Religion, ed. G.S. Talib. Patialia: Punjab University Press, 1975.

Singh, Ganda. The Singh Sabha and Other Socio-Religious Movement in the Punjab. Patiala: Yesman Printers, 1997.

Singh, Jagjit. Singh Sabh Lahir (Ludhiana: Lahore Book Shop,1974)

Singh, K and G.S. Mann. Siri Dasam Granth Sahib, Questions and Answers. London: Archimedes Press, 2011.

Singh, Kushwant. A History of the Sikhs, Volume II: 1839-2004. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2004. 

Smith, Wilfred Cantwell. The Meaning and End of Religion. New York: Macmillan Press, 1963.

Spair, Edward. The Status of Linguistics as a Science. Linguistic Society of American, 5 (1929): 207-214

Tosh, John. The Pursuit of History. 5th ed. Harlow: Pearson Education Limited, 2010.

[1] There were 115 Singh Sabhas by 1900. These local institutions helped pressure standardization of practice as now each Singh Sabha could keep in contact via means of telegraph or printing press. However, when referring to the Singh Sabha it is in reference to the Amritsar Singh Sabha that was established in 1873. Harjot Oberoi, The Construction of Religious Boundaries, Culture, Identity and Diversity in the Sikh Tradition (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1994):45
[2] Tony Ballantyne, Between Colonialism and Diaspora, Sikh Cultural Formations in an Imperial World (London: Duke University Press, 2006):33
[3] Henry S. Nash, The Nature and Definition of Religion, The Harvard Theological Review, 6 (1913): 7
[4] Richard King, Orientalism and Religion: Post-Colonial Theory, India and the Mystic East (New York: Routledge, 1999): 37
[5] Richard King, Orientalism and Religion: Post-Colonial Theory, India and the Mystic East (New York: Routledge, 199): 36
[6] Ibid., 36
[7] Ancient History Encyclopaedia, 2nd September 2009, http://www.ancient.eu.com/religion/
[8] The term Sikhi refers to pre-colonial Sikh tradition where as Sikhism refers to
[9] Ernest Trumpp, The Adi Granth or Holy Scriptures of the Sikhs (1877; reprint, Dehli: Munishiram Manoharlal Publishers, 2010): 1
[10] ‘He who walks in Gods order,’ this clearly illustrates there is a distinction between God and the individual. Ernest Trumpp, The Adi Granth or Holy Scriptures of the Sikhs (1877; reprint, Dehli: Munishiram Manoharlal Publishers, 2010): 1
[11] Tony Ballantyne, Between Colonialism and Diaspora, Sikh Cultural Formations in an Imperial World (London: Duke University Press, 2006):54
[12] Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Page 470, http://www.searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/470/line/21284
[13] Dr. Amit-Goswami , Ph.D. (2007) Amit Goswami, Qunatum Physics & Consciousness 1 of 3 [Video] Viewed, November 21, 2011, Amit Goswami, Quantum Physics & Consciousness 1 of 3      - YouTube
[14] Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Page 30, Line 13, http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=30&english=t&id=1259#l1259
[15] Harjot Oberoi, The Construction of Religious Boundaries, Culture, Identity and Diversity in the Sikh Tradition (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1994):319
[16] ibid.,
[17] Wilfred Cantwell Smith, The Meaning and End of Religion (New York: Macmillan, 1963): 60
[18] Tony Ballantyne, Between Colonialism and Diaspora, Sikh Cultural Formations in an Imperial World (London: Duke University Press, 2006):37
[19] Harjot Oberoi, The Construction of Religious Boundaries, Culture, Identity and Diversity in the Sikh Tradition (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1994): 12
[20] Edward Sapir, The Status of Linguistics as a Science, Linguistic Society of America, 5 (1929): 207
[21] Harjot Oberoi, The Construction of Religious Boundaries, Culture, Identity and Diversity in the Sikh Tradition (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1994): 32
[22] ibid., 31
[23] Miha Singh, Twelve Petalled Cosmic Lotus, 27, folio originally attached to a manuscript of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
[24] Siri Dasam Granth, Page 113-144. Guru Gobind Singh Ji starts from the origins of the Sodhi clan up until the time of the Gurus. Out of the 10 gurus, 7 were from the Sodhi clan and the other three were from the bedi clan.
[25] James Browne, Browne’s Treatise on the Sikhs, 1788, in Sicques, Tigers or Thieves, Eyewitness accounts of the Sikhs, 1606-1809, ed. Amandeep Singh Madra and Parmjit Singh (New York: Palgrave MacMillan, 2004): 91
[26] Harjot Oberoi, The Construction of Religious Boundaries, Culture, Identity and Diversity in the Sikh Tradition (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1994): 11
[27] Russell Robert Vane, The Tribes and Castes of the Central Provinces of India (London: MacMillan, 1916): 193
[28] Historical the term Hindu was first used by the Persians to label anyone who had been conquered by the Persians but were not Muslim.  Wilfred Cantwell Smith, The Meaning and End of Religion (New York: Macmillan, 1963): 64. ‘On the 11th Anniversary of the Arya Samaj held on 25th November, 1888, the late Pandit Guru Dutt, made certain uncalled remarks on Guru Nanak and Guru Govind Singh…’ Jawahir Singh, Arya Samaj-Singh Sabha, in The Singh Sabha and Other Socio-Religious Movements in the Punjab, ed. Ganda Singh (Patiala: Yesman Printers, 1997):92
[29] Kahn Singh Nabha, Ham Hindu Nahin (Amritsar: Shri Guru Singh Sabha Shatabdi Committee, 1973)
[30] Emiliy Eden, Akalees, JPG, http://ogimages.bl.uk/images/019/019XZZ000000043U00005000[SVC1].jpg. See appendix E
[31] When referring to the Sikh community it is not in relation to a homogenous Sikh community but rather the collective name for the numerous Sikh orders which included the Udhasis (identifiable mostly by their dreadlocks and loin cloths), the Nirmala (identifiable by their pink robes), the Seva Panthis (identifiable by their white cloths) and the Nihangs (identifiable by their blue robes, tall turbans and numerous weapons that will be on their person).
[32] Vir Singh, Satwant Kaur (Patiala: Punjab University, 1900):222
[33] Siri Dasam Granth, Page 321.
[34] Emiliy Eden, Akalees, JPG, http://ogimages.bl.uk/images/019/019XZZ000000043U00005000[SVC1].jpg. See appendix E
[35] James Coley, The Sutlej Campaign of 1845-6 (London: Smith Elder and Co., 1856): 105
[36] James Coley, The Sutlej Campaign of 1845-6 (London: Smith Elder and Co., 1856): 68
[37] Exile of the Immortals, Golden Temple Exhibition, 2011, http://goldentemple1588.com/resource/exile-of-the-immortals/ (14 November 2011)
[38] Defanging the Snake, Golden Temple Exhibition, 2011, http://goldentemple1588.com/resource/exile-of-the-immortals/ (21 November 2011)
[39] Jagjit Singh, Singh Sabh Lahir (Ludhiana: Lahore Book Shop,1974): 1-10; Avatar Singh, The Singh Sabha Movement in The Origin and Development of Religion, ed. G.S. Talib (Patialia: Punjab University Press, 1975):85-91; Rajiv A. Kapur, Sikh Separatism: The Politics of Faith (London: Harper Collins Publishers, 1986):27
[40] Ernest Trumpp,  preface to The Adi Granth or Holy Scriptures of the Sikhs (1877; reprint, Dehli: Munishiram Manoharlal Publishers, 2010): VIII
[41] Peter Penner, Robert Needham Cust, A Personal Biography (New York: The Edwin Mellen Press, 1987): 235
[42] Harjot Oberoi, The Construction of Religious Boundaries, Culture, Identity and Diversity in the Sikh Tradition (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1994): 207
[43] Census of India 1931, Volume XVII Punjab Part I: Report, by Khan Ahmad Hasan Khan, Lahore, 1933, 290, quoted in Harjot Oberoi, The Construction of Religious Boundaries, Culture, Identity and Diversity in the Sikh Tradition (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1994): 211
[44] J.S. Grewal, Historical Perspectives on Sikh Identity (Patiala: Punjabi University, 1997):36
[45] ibid., 148
[46] Gavin Rand, Martial Races and Imperial Subjects: Violence and Governance in Colonial India 1857-1914 (London: Routledge, 2006): 13
[47] Harjot Oberoi, The Construction of Religious Boundaries, Culture, Identity and Diversity in the Sikh Tradition (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1994):361
[48] Khalsa Akbar, 9 April 1887, pg. 5
[49] R. Singh, Darshan Singh’s anti-Dasam Granth Phobia, May 23, 2008, http://panthic.org/articles/4115
[50] G.S. Mann and K. Singh, Siri Dasam Granth Sahib, Questions and Answers (London: Archimedes Press, 2011):10
[51] G.S. Mann and K. Singh, Siri Dasam Granth Sahib, Questions and Answers (London: Archimedes Press, 2011):26
[52] The following compositions are still to this day used within the amrit sanchar and are part of the Dasam Granth – Jaap Sahib, Chaupai Sahib and Tva Prasad Svaiye.
[53] Charles Wilkins, Visit to the Takht at Patna, 1781, 294, in Sicques, Tigers and Thieves
[54] ibid., 25
[55] Khalsa Akbar, 18 September 1886, 3-5
[56] Harjot Oberoi, The Construction of Religious Boundaries, Culture, Identity and Diversity in the Sikh Tradition (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1994):342
[57] ibid.,130
[58] ibid., 211
[59]http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=178943&partid=1&searchText=shiva&fromADBC=ad&toADBC=ad&numpages=10&images=on&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database.aspx&currentPage=12. See appendix G
[60] The Sikh Gurdwara Act 1925, 6th December, 2011. http://www.punjablaws.gov.pk/laws/33.html
[61] Nihang Nidar Singh and Parmjit Singh, The Multifarious Faces of Sikhism throughout Sikh History, Sanatan Sikhi, 2009, http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/article_samparda_sgpc6.html, (14 November 2011)
[62] Richard Fox, Lions of the Punjab (California, University of California Press, 1985):140
[63] J. Kerr, British Relationships with the Golden Temple, The Indian Economic and Social History Review, 21, (1984): 139-51
Posted by A Rambling Sikh at 16:00


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## Kamala (Jan 27, 2012)

The answer is no, you cannot do meditation or pray while you are drunk. So if you want to drink, take it somewhere else PLEASE.


Alcohol is the drinks of rakshas' and amritdhari (true) sikhs are not rakshas'


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jan 27, 2012)

Lion Prince ji, what this article is asking for us to do, is re-imagine our religion, which it says itself was the thing that Singh Sabha did wrong. Ironical isn't it.


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