# God, Jesus, And Gurus



## Harwinder (Apr 21, 2011)

Sikhism believes that god is in everything and everyone. He knows what u r thinkiing he knows your deepest dark seceret.  (phala bhura ke peer pashanat).....Forgive my spelling. (god was in the gurus)

As do christians believe that Jesus was God. I am not going to get to deep in to cristianity but from what i have learned about it; is it strongly relates to sikhism with the 5 ks (kaam, krodh, lob, mo and hounkar) they believe these are also sins not to be commited.

So since Sikhism believes god is in everyone. Should sikhism believe or should i say do sikhs believe in Jesus? 

Could Jesus be considered a GURU?.... and since he was before the time of Guru Nanak Dev Ji.......IS JESUS the FIRST GURU...?


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 21, 2011)

Harwinder said:


> Sikhism believes that god is in everything and everyone. He knows what u r thinkiing he knows your deepest dark seceret.  (phala bhura ke peer pashanat).....Forgive my spelling. (god was in the gurus)
> 
> As do christians believe that Jesus was God. I am not going to get to deep in to cristianity but from what i have learned about it; is it strongly relates to sikhism with the 5 ks (kaam, krodh, lob, mo and hounkar) they believe these are also sins not to be commited.
> 
> ...




I'm not sure where to start on this...

Most Christians believe in the Holy Trinity



God the Father - Yahweh/Jehovah


God the Son - Jesus/Christ

God the Holy Spirit

Not all do, however.  Some believe that Jesus was an inspired man and was not God .

I think there is some confusion as to the word "Guru."  There are many "gurus," teachers of various sorts.  Certainly Jesus was one of these.  So was Buddha.  So was Mahavira.  So were many others.

In Sikhi, when we speak of our Gurus, we are speaking only of 10 specific men from Guru Nanak Dev ji to Guru Gobind Singh and our eternal Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.  So while Jesus is a "guru,' he is not a "Guru" in the Sikh sense.  I hope that is clear.

As Sikhs, we respect Jesus as we respect the holy people of all religions.  He points one way to get to the Ultimate.  Personally, I find most of his teachings to be beautiful and true.  To be totally honest, I do not like the religion that is supposedly based on his teachings, but that is not the topic here.  

BTW, what you are calling the 5 ks are actually the 5 evil thieves that rob us of peace.

The 5 ks are actually our articles of faith:  kes, khanga, kirpan, kara, kechhera.  I'm sure that was just a slip.


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## Harwinder (Apr 21, 2011)

Thank you for your insight yes that was a slip on the 5 k's sorry..

Yes his jesus ji had great teachings. 
I believe in jesus do as do i also respect the holy people of other religons.

I have question does that mena it is okay to celebrate christmas


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Apr 21, 2011)

They have been countless people who have been father, mother, brother, sister, wife, husband etc before you. But who made you a son, daughter or spouse is your first and only relation. Same for Guru. The Guru who made you a Sikh is your only True Guru. He is First and the Last, Before the start of time and after the End of Universe.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 21, 2011)

Harwinder said:


> Thank you for your insight yes that was a slip on the 5 k's sorry..
> 
> Yes his jesus ji had great teachings.
> I believe in jesus do as do i also respect the holy people of other religons.
> ...



When I was a kid, we went whole hog for Christmas, lights, decorations, the tree, presents - and Dad really did look like a tall, athletic Santa Claus with his red turban and flowing white beard.  We had a lot of fun.  It was a fully cultural Christmas - minus Christ.  To be truthful. I don't think any of us thought much about it.

Until our 6 year old son came home one day asking, "Are we Christians?"

"Of course not, son!  You know we're Sikhs!  Why would you ask such a question?"

With a knowing gleam in those young eyes, he responded, "If we're not Christians, why do we celebrate the birth of their God?  That seems kind of disrespectful if we don't believe in him."

Under his steady gaze, all our arguments about it being just for fun, for cultural reasons, because everybody else was celebrating,  seemed just as hollow as they really are.  We never again celebrated Christmas at our house, although the festivities continued at the family home in the city.

I think it is a personal choice whether to celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday, but I personally would lean toward "No, not in our homes, but it's OK to join in nonreligious celebrations with our friends and at school."


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## Ishna (Apr 21, 2011)

Regarding celebrating Christmas, do you mean secularly?  Christmas in the West is these days just a secular festival.  I have read blogs where Sikhs do get into the Christmas spirit and will have a tree in their house decorated, with presents underneath, have a feast with their families, etc.  That is one way to celebrate Christmas, was the way it was celebrated all my life and the way I continue to celebrate it with my family.

The other way to celebrate Christmas is to go to midnight mass, to sing Christmas carols about the birth of the saviour Christ, to celebrate it spiritually and religiously.  I don't think this is appropriate for a Sikh as it is basically worship of something other than Waheguru.  You can participate if you want to as an observer, I think, but better to leave the worship to the Christians.

Same with Easter, the chocolate festival (hehe).

Same with diwali, from what I understand.  Sikhs celebrate at diwali but I'm sure they don't celebrate it for the religious reasons.

A good test I suppose would be to look at the surrounding universal Truths in the celebration and focus on those.  Giving gifts, spending time with family, these are good things and any excuse is a good excuse. 

Ish


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## findingmyway (Apr 21, 2011)

God is not a person.

Go back and study the mool mantar

The holy spirit is an external entity. Waheguru is an integral part of creation.


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## Ishna (Apr 21, 2011)

Well, my post looks silly now next to Mai ji's (posted right before I posted mine!).

When I was a Pagan I struggled more with Christmas celebrations than I do now.  It was right in the front of my mind that althought there was nothing spiritual or religion in any of my family celebrations, the day was indeed dedicated to the birth of Christ, and I had a problem with that.

But as a Sikh, I haven't worried so much about that.  I enjoy the time more with family and friends (and the leave I get from work!!).

Hmm... *ponders *


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## Harwinder (Apr 21, 2011)

ok fair enough we can celebrate it as a fetival. In thats case we can celebrate anything as a festival without a  true religous meaning; but doese that mean we are offending and disrespecting cristainity since we really dont believe in jesus but yet still continue to celebrate it.

Now the real question here is religously is it wrong for sikh to believe that jesus was indeed equal as the ten gurus in sikhism. Can we or should we have faith jesus as well since quoted by mai harinder kaur ji that "jesus in fact is a guru"


Not trying offend anyone


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 22, 2011)

why stop at Jesus ?   Abraham...Moses..Zoroaster came a thousand years before that...Babylon had "Gurus"...Persia had them..Greece had them..Socrates..is one..what about ZEUS ?? the Olympian gods..THOR god of Thunder..etc etc...Viking gods...red Indian Gods..Sitting Bull Flying deer etc could also be "GURUS"...why leave out MUHAMMED ??

One has to BEGIN SOMEWHERE....SIKH begin with GURU NANAK. Lots of "fathers" came before...BUT MY LIFE begins with MY FATHER..Gyani darbara Singh daler....not Mahatma Gandhis father..or Abraham's father...it was MY FATHER who brought me to thsi world and taught me everything I know...similarly it is GURU NANAK JI who brought SIKHI into this world..and taught SIKHI....and a SIKH is not worth his salt IF he doesnt know his own FATHER...After oen KNOWS ones own FATHER very well..then he can slowly proceed to get to "know" other's fathers...but not essential. One who "smells" here and there like a butterfly has no FLOWER that he can call MY OWN. GURMATT and SIKHI is MY VERY OWN FLOWER.


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 22, 2011)

Harwinder said:


> ok fair enough we can celebrate it as a fetival. In thats case we can celebrate anything as a festival without a  true religous meaning; but doese that mean we are offending and disrespecting cristainity since we really dont believe in jesus but yet still continue to celebrate it.
> 
> Now the real question here is religously is it wrong for sikh to believe that jesus was indeed equal as the ten gurus in sikhism. Can we or should we have faith jesus as well since quoted by mai harinder kaur ji that "jesus in fact is a guru"
> 
> ...


Harwinder ji I don't know about your background in Punjabi, etc., but at an extreme the following is kind of true,


Guru
An esteemed teacher, teacher that you respect perhaps more than anyone else in the specific area or field

Guru(s)
Not a competitive concept
A contextual concept

Guru(s) misuse
You take one area and bundle with some other area and create a Gumbo soup of Gurus
Your line of thought in your question
Do Christians think of Jesus as Guru?
Most likely.  May be not the actual word Guru.

Do Christians think of Guru Nanak Dev ji as equivalent Guru to Jesus?​
Absolutely not.


_Should Sikhs consider Jesus as Guru?_

_Absolutely not, as he does not teach Sikhism._
Sure there have been wise people and there will be wise people in the future.





> *Bottomline:*
> 
> 
> Guru is a practical and functional concept at a personal level not just a word to be generalized.




Sat Sri Akal.​


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## spnadmin (Apr 22, 2011)

> BUT MY LIFE begins with MY FATHER..Gyani darbara Singh daler....not Mahatma Gandhis father..or Abraham's father...it was MY FATHER who brought me to thsi world and taught me everything I know...similarly it is GURU NANAK JI who brought SIKHI into this world..and taught SIKHI....and a SIKH is not worth his salt IF he doesnt know his own FATHER...After oen KNOWS ones own FATHER very well..then he can slowly proceed to get to "know" other's fathers.




imho What Gyani  ji says here is very important. To be completely clear about it. Otherwise we run the risk of saying all religious paths are the same, and Jesus or Socrates or Mohamed are also  a Guru of the Sikhs. More than one time in our history we have lost our footing and tripped. We stumble into territory that is not consistent with Guru Nanak's message. Into terrain that may not even like our Gurus' message very much. And we are fooled by the all paths are one slogan. It takes time, learning and support to move into alien land without risking our identities. Today we pay the price for that in so many ways.


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## Harwinder (Apr 23, 2011)

I agree gyani ji. I thanx for the enliegtment. For that is why i posted this question so I CAN learn about sikihi SO i CAN understand the thinking of Sikhi fallowers. As i am on my way but 
"ofcousre am going to have to cross a lot of mountians to obtian spirtual belief"

Thank you.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Apr 23, 2011)

This is a vital topic also because Christian proselytisers try to make Christianity sound like Sikhi.  They present Jesus as a "Guru" (capitale G), hymns as Shabads and Kirtan, the Bible as Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and I have even heard communion/Eucharist referred to as the Darshan of Vaheguru.  

Some of the tricks and other useful information can be found at elsewhere here at SPN at http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/chris...gressive-conversion-mission-destroy-sikh.html

Here is a review of the book _Lions, Princesses and Gurus: Reaching Your Sikh Neighbour _, "a cookbook on how to convert Sikhs into Christianity."   http://www.sikhspectrum.com/022006/lions_gbs.htm.


Sometime ago, I also read what appears to be a gentle, loving blogpost about how friendly Sikhs are...this is turned into an opportunity for luring us away from our Gurus to Jesus.  I am searching for the link and when I find it, I will return and post it here.

I am not meaning to disrespect Christianity, but like Islam, it is a proselytising religion that teaches its way is the only way - and we do need to be on guard against these tactics.


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