# Death Is A Sorrow But So Is Birth Isn't It ? Jamman-maran Is A Dukh!



## Seeker2013 (Jun 23, 2015)

I don't know how many 25 yr olds feel in a situation like mine : broke, hurt, wounded, suffering from self-pity , depression, low self-esteem , unemployment , .... It seems like many of them are enjoying their life to the fullest. 

But now that I feel I am seeing what seems like  ' life for real' in all its splendid mercilessness and cold apathy , I am as if shaken violently off a dream (or shall I call it a delusion) ,i.e my childhood. How simple life was back then !  school - tuition - sleep . Repeating almost infinitely . How sweet was the ignorance. How sweet was it when everything was brought by father at home , and the remaining journey from home till my mouth of those goodies being crossed by my mom . My parents are the only two angels I know , the only 2 friends , the only two guardian angels, the only 2 people in this world I can call my 'own' , my 'apney' . 

But those days of innocuousness are gone now. Everything's changed. There's no more summer vacations, no more "if you screw it up, your parents will fix it for you" . Tables turned now, but how stupid, how {censored}ic, how insanely foolish of me that I didn't , that I couldn't see it coming . How could I ! 

How could I have not seen my father is growing old, that he can't provide for me forever. How could I have not seen my mom grow weary and weak with her health issues. How could I have been so irresponsible as to not realize that if I don't do my s**t on time, It is me who will have to reap it tomorrow. 

Now that I am seeing adulthood in its full splendor of apathy and a cold indifference, I do miss that warmness of parental care although my parents still love me . But even the thought of them leaving me one day (and they will ) brings tears to my eyes. . Life to me ,... MY VERY OWN LIFE to me shows cold indifference , the exact opposite of my parents attitude to me. Sometimes I wonder why they had to be so nice to me.

But here comes the guru ji in picture. I have never felt it is just a 1430 page 'holy book' . I can just feel it talk to me, as I talk to it, so does it talk to me back. It tells me when I am being stupid, it consoles me when I am troubled, it rebukes me when I am being foolish, even calls me 'crazy' when I behave crazy. Guru Granth sahib talks to me like it talks to any1 who has faith in it , anyone who invokes the divine light in it for guidance.

NOW, I wonder if reincarnation indeed is true , if Guru granth sahib indeed says the truth, then all the pain , all the emotional and mental agony I have to go through has no end to it , unless I escape from birth-death cycle. 

My very own life today forces me to ask "What art thou doing?". The procrastinator in me asks with a stern warning "You sure you ain't screwing up on this chance of human life?" .

When I look at a dog, I wonder "Is this my fate somewhere down the line of birth and death cycle?" 
When I look at suffering of any creature , I wonder "What is the point of success in this life if you're gonna end up loosing it all and wiggle like a dog in pain at the end of road one day down the line?"

But then the skeptic in me kicks in "How do you know SGGS ain't just plain poetry of human creator, albeit exotic and from the 15th century?" , "Maybe the gurus were ordinary people who had too much time on their hands and composed ordinary, rhyming poetry?" , "How do you know its 'dhur di baani' and not human creation?" , "What makes you think its guru talking to you when you ask for a hukamnama , maybe its just coincidence of opening a random page" , "What evidence there of reincarnation, what if this is the only life that there is and you're being an IDIOT not enjoying it and partying the hell out of it ?"

I feel this tug of war often between two contrasting thought patterns in my head. One part of me asks me to meditate on god , so that I don't have to come to this world of pain again . 
Other part of me questions the validity of what the first part just said .

Whats the truth ? Do you feel like how I do too ? 

*Thanks a ton for reading this long. Dhanvaad jee *


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## chazSingh (Jun 23, 2015)

*I don't know how many 25 yr olds feel in a situation like mine : broke, hurt, wounded, suffering from self-pity , depression, low self-esteem , unemployment , .... It seems like many of them are enjoying their life to the fullest.*

i think i might have gone through something similar....i know quite a few people that did also...when you're down...you see everyone living easy...but truth is...everyone is carrying burden of some sort

you are contemplating life...your existance...its a blessing if it draws you closer to waheguru...it's a curse if you drop your head and blame the world and drop deeper into darkness...

Rule of the Game is "you reap what you sow" .... during hard times a lot of people...as did I, blame others...but we already know the rule of the game....we are where we are because of what we have Sown...

Tell Guru Ji in your heartfelt ardaas...."I accept where I Am....I am here because of what i did"...acknowledge it...let it all out...the things you've done which you know were not right..and ask for waheguru's ji's forgiveness for only Waheguru can wipe your Karmic dirt.

Then ask for his light to show you the best way forward...and you will start to write a better future for yourself...mentally...because it is all within the mind...in moment of difficulty some crumble, others stand up and look for solutions...what person do you want to be...

if you can;t find work...ask for voluntary work to as many companies as you can...become pro-active...small steps....don;t think too far ahead...just one small thing at a time that you can do...today...in this present moment...


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## LSD (Jun 23, 2015)

cut it short>>> both janam and maran are NOT the truth.

Birth, death are both as not real >but there to help soul find TRUTH.

Truth is permanent>>untouchable>>>ultimate reality >>no beginning>>no end>>>so how can Time Limited BIRTH>DEATH be anywhere near truth ???

need to understand what kaal is and that time is just part of dimension that we are in>>this dimension is not the whole truth


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## Harry Haller (Jun 24, 2015)

Seeker2013 said:


> I don't know how many 25 yr olds feel in a situation like mine : broke, hurt, wounded, suffering from self-pity , depression, low self-esteem , unemployment , .... It seems like many of them are enjoying their life to the fullest.



oh quite a few, 


Seeker2013 said:


> But now that I feel I am seeing what seems like ' life for real' in all its splendid mercilessness and cold apathy , I am as if shaken violently off a dream (or shall I call it a delusion) ,i.e my childhood. How simple life was back then ! school - tuition - sleep . Repeating almost infinitely . How sweet was the ignorance. How sweet was it when everything was brought by father at home , and the remaining journey from home till my mouth of those goodies being crossed by my mom . My parents are the only two angels I know , the only 2 friends , the only two guardian angels, the only 2 people in this world I can call my 'own' , my 'apney' .



you are going to grow up into a very needy person if you are not careful, it is interesting to see that you have the same attitude to your parents as you have towards Creator, ie, they exist for you, to provide and keep you happy



Seeker2013 said:


> But those days of innocuousness are gone now. Everything's changed. There's no more summer vacations, no more "if you screw it up, your parents will fix it for you" . Tables turned now, but how stupid, how {censored}ic, how insanely foolish of me that I didn't , that I couldn't see it coming . How could I !



its not foolish, its the way your brain thinks, me me me me me



Seeker2013 said:


> How could I have not seen my father is growing old, that he can't provide for me forever. How could I have not seen my mom grow weary and weak with her health issues. How could I have been so irresponsible as to not realize that if I don't do my s**t on time, It is me who will have to reap it tomorrow.



nope, actually it will be them, for whilst you are frolicking with your new found friends in Canada, they will be getting old with a son thousands of miles away, 


Seeker2013 said:


> Now that I am seeing adulthood in its full splendor of apathy and a cold indifference, I do miss that warmness of parental care although my parents still love me . But even the thought of them leaving me one day (and they will ) brings tears to my eyes. . Life to me ,... MY VERY OWN LIFE to me shows cold indifference , the exact opposite of my parents attitude to me. Sometimes I wonder why they had to be so nice to me.



adulthood? you call this adulthood? your still living at home playing with yourself all day and praying to goddy so that you dont have to work in a call centre, you are fed, warm, comfortable. I am sorry my friend, but you are still a child, adulthood does not come with age, it comes with mature and responsible thinking. But dont feel so bad, I still consider myself a child. 


Seeker2013 said:


> But here comes the guru ji in picture. I have never felt it is just a 1430 page 'holy book' . I can just feel it talk to me, as I talk to it, so does it talk to me back. It tells me when I am being stupid, it consoles me when I am troubled, it rebukes me when I am being foolish, even calls me 'crazy' when I behave crazy. Guru Granth sahib talks to me like it talks to any1 who has faith in it , anyone who invokes the divine light in it for guidance.



no, that is your own conscience


Seeker2013 said:


> NOW, I wonder if reincarnation indeed is true , if Guru granth sahib indeed says the truth, then all the pain , all the emotional and mental agony I have to go through has no end to it , unless I escape from birth-death cycle.



sorry this self pity is getting nauseating, what pain? what agony? what about the pain and agony of your parents who have done everything and anything possible to educate and raise you, who are now getting old, ill, dependent, whilst all you talk of is your misery, 


Seeker2013 said:


> When I look at a dog, I wonder "Is this my fate somewhere down the line of birth and death cycle?"
> When I look at suffering of any creature , I wonder "What is the point of success in this life if you're gonna end up loosing it all and wiggle like a dog in pain at the end of road one day down the line?"



depends on how you define success, to me success is just to be, to you it might mean houses, cars, not working in a call centre, a nice buff canadian, 


Seeker2013 said:


> But then the skeptic in me kicks in "How do you know SGGS ain't just plain poetry of human creator, albeit exotic and from the 15th century?" , "Maybe the gurus were ordinary people who had too much time on their hands and composed ordinary, rhyming poetry?" , "How do you know its 'dhur di baani' and not human creation?" , "What makes you think its guru talking to you when you ask for a hukamnama , maybe its just coincidence of opening a random page" , "What evidence there of reincarnation, what if this is the only life that there is and you're being an IDIOT not enjoying it and partying the hell out of it ?"



so just to recap, if this is the one and only life we have, rather than say help others, it is our duty to have as much fun as possible


Seeker2013 said:


> I feel this tug of war often between two contrasting thought patterns in my head. One part of me asks me to meditate on god , so that I don't have to come to this world of pain again .
> Other part of me questions the validity of what the first part just said .
> 
> Whats the truth ? Do you feel like how I do too ?



we all feel like you do, its called duality


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## Harry Haller (Jun 24, 2015)

LSD said:


> cut it short>>> both janam and maran are NOT the truth.



brilliant, so what is the truth?


LSD said:


> Birth, death are both as not real >but there to help soul find TRUTH.



brilliant, so what is the truth?


LSD said:


> Truth is permanent>>untouchable>>>ultimate reality >>no beginning>>no end>>>so how can Time Limited BIRTH>DEATH be anywhere near truth ???


your getting me really excited here, so what is the truth?


LSD said:


> need to understand what kaal is and that time is just part of dimension that we are in>>this dimension is not the whole truth


ah damn, ok whats kaal?, and then do share with us what the truth is please!


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## LSD (Jun 24, 2015)

HArry=brilliant, so what is the truth?
brilliant, so what is the truth?
your getting me really excited here, so what is the truth?

have you even read gurbani???
Do you even do nitnem??>>>>>what does gurbani tell us about Truth ??
You really think that you living in denial with some self manufactured version of sikhi you have>>that you are truth yourself???
Before you even utter the same nonsense>>no, I'm not the truth>>but my efforts and abiaas are taking me closer and closer to the Truth.

Harry=ah damn, ok whats kaal?, and then do share with us what the truth is please![
Kaal is the time between that graph wher you have a point of birth and the other point of death.
Your ignorance of not knowing what or when kaal is mentioned in gurbani makes me doubt your sikhi even more.>>>yet you question my authenticity or if Ihad legit amrit on the other thread??


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## Harry Haller (Jun 24, 2015)

[


LSD said:


> HArry=brilliant, so what is the truth?
> brilliant, so what is the truth?
> your getting me really excited here, so what is the truth?
> 
> ...



but err I don't believe in reincarnation, so how is kaal then relevant?
by the way, I could not care less whether you are baptised or not, I questioned your right to judge other Sikhs
actually I question your right to judge me, I ask many questions and make many statements in an effort to play devils advocate and so that we can all learn from the answers. Let me be frank, I have always thought of my views as heretical, not mainstream, in fact somewhere on this forum is a post that makes the same point. I am not interested in changing your mind, insulting you, correcting you, or questioning you. 

now I have had to change colour of your posts several times, please refrain from anything resembling an admin colour if you can, thank you


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## chazSingh (Jun 24, 2015)

harry haller said:


> [
> 
> 
> but err I don't believe in reincarnation, so how is kaal then relevant?
> ...




Harry Ji....

Kaal is relevant...because if it;s the TRUTH then you are part of it.....doesnt matter if you believe in it or not..

people seems to think if they don;t believe in something..it doesn'y exist....the truth exists regardless of our opinions...our opinions carry no power against what is true.

question is what is truth and what isn't...that's what the Sikh does...Sikh doesnt stop at just beliefs...sikh goes seeking for it...to know it...to experience it...and won;t stop until the truth is shining bright infront of the sikh.

is this not true?


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## Harry Haller (Jun 24, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Harry Ji....
> 
> Kaal is relevant...because if it;s the TRUTH then you are part of it.....doesnt matter if you believe in it or not..
> 
> ...


I don't know I cannot actually make head or tale of it, I asked what kaal is, your telling me its truth?


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## LSD (Jun 24, 2015)

read gurbani>>>show me the quotes that you don't understand where kaal is referenced>>
you playing ignorance>>not devils advocate>><<good al pacino n keanu reeves movie though>>


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## LSD (Jun 24, 2015)

don't get confused Chaz>>>kaal is not the truth but just a limited part of truth>>cuz Truth is Ajooni saibahang>>>without birth and death
but Kaal> is time bound within the age of birth and death
It's the time that is experienced in this dimension.
The truth >>in it's completeness can only be experienced outside of kaal>>outside maya>>>which is why gurbani tells us about 4the dimension>chautha pad>>>outside of kaal

kaal has a BEGINNING an END>>>Truth  has neither and is aad jugad >>hai bi sach>>hosi bi sach>>>OR <<forever was and forever shall be>no time frame


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## LSD (Jun 24, 2015)

Mr harry>>>you should probably understand now that jjanam/maran>>birth/death are FaLSE.
WHY?.>>cuz they define boundary of time>>boundary of kaal
But TRUTH has no boundary>>no limits.


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## Sherdil (Jun 24, 2015)

Sat = Objective Truth

Objective Truth doesn’t need anyone to believe in it for it to be true. It is intrinsically true.

Sat is derived from the Sanskrit word Sattya = Reality / Existence / Truth

Existence is Truth because Existence exists regardless of any extrinsic belief in it. There cannot even be any extrinsic belief in Existence because everything exists within Existence. There is nothing extrinsic to it.

Don’t confuse this with “I” exist and “You” exist. That is duality. Even when “I” die and “You” die, Existence will continue to exist. That is why birth and death are illusory. The dukh associated with them stems from ignorance of the bigger picture. Pronouns cannot define you (I am / Haumai). You are Sat. Sat naam. Sat is your name.

Everything exists, but not in the way that the mind perceives it. The mind sees the Ocean and says the Ocean exists. The mind sees the Sky and says the Sky exists. But it doesn’t see the sunyata (nothingness) behind it. Sunyata is the absence of duality. In reality, nothing has an intrinsic self. It is void of pronouns. In this void permeates the One. Gurbani describes it as butter permeating milk.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 3, 2015)

LSD said:


> Mr harry>>>you should probably understand now that jjanam/maran>>birth/death are FaLSE.
> WHY?.>>cuz they define boundary of time>>boundary of kaal
> But TRUTH has no boundary>>no limits.



ok, there is something else I need you to be aware of, its proselytizing, this means it is forbidden on this forum to try and convert others to your point of view, so we try and steer clear of definitive statements, or tell others they are wrong, you are not proselytizing, but you are getting close. 

What I would rather you do, is make your points, back them up with proof, or even an explanation, and then folks can make up their own minds. Expect some debate, but that is ok, we can debate like gentlemen, or gentlewomen, and so forth. 

I would imagine you could bring something to the table for this forum, Chazji could do with someone to give him a hand, I would beg of you to start writing, write on any topic you can find, I would love to see your slant on many things, I would love to debate with you, but it is not about point scoring, see it as two gentlemen playing chess. We do not need to be aggressive or rude. I look forward to your opinions, however if they do breach the terms of service of this forum, they will have to be removed or edited. 

I look forward to interesting and informative discourse with you, if I can be of any help or assistance please mail me


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## Original (Jul 4, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> Sat = Objective Truth
> 
> Objective Truth doesn’t need anyone to believe in it for it to be true. It is intrinsically true.
> 
> ...





Sherdil said:


> Objective Truth doesn’t need anyone to believe in it for it to be true. It is intrinsically true.


I agree with you wholly solely, but can we explore a little further ? What is objective truth and what is intrinsically true, by convention or your opinion? Please feel comfortable in discussing because there is a beautiful ring to it re SATNAM. If not, just ignore - many thanks !


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 4, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> Sat = Objective Truth
> 
> Objective Truth doesn’t need anyone to believe in it for it to be true. It is intrinsically true.
> 
> ...



Could you please elaborate the differences among the following "Truths"?

1. Objective Truth
2. Subjective Truth
3. Absolute Truth.
4. Intrinsically True

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Sherdil (Jul 5, 2015)

Original said:


> I agree with you wholly solely, but can we explore a little further ? What is objective truth and what is intrinsically true, by convention or your opinion? Please feel comfortable in discussing because there is a beautiful ring to it re SATNAM. If not, just ignore - many thanks !





Tejwant Singh said:


> Could you please elaborate the differences among the following "Truths"?
> 
> 1. Objective Truth
> 2. Subjective Truth
> ...



Objective truth is valid regardless of anyone's belief in it.

Subjective truth is valid only because someone feels it is true.

Example: Two people drink the same cup of tea. One person says the tea is sweet. The other person says it is bitter. They have both come up with two subjective truths about the tea. Both interpretations are equally valid, but neither reveals the objective truth about the tea. It is neither bitter, nor is it sweet, and yet it is both depending on whom you ask. The tea just is what it is.

Objective truth never stops being true. It has always been true and it will always be true. "I" and "You" will one day be no more. That is why "I" and "You" are not objectively true.

(I exist + You exist) - (I + You) = Exist.

Existence has always existed, it exists now, and it will always exist. That is why Existence is objective truth. One day the Ocean and Sky will cease to exist. Yet, Existence will continue to exist indefinitely.

I would use the terms objective, intrinsic and absolute interchangeably in this context.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 5, 2015)

Sherdil ji,

Guru Fateh.



> Objective truth is valid regardless of anyone's belief in it.



Could you elaborate that with some examples  please?



> Subjective truth is valid only because someone feels it is true.


I agree. Belief systems are based on Subjective truths. It is based on feelings rather than on something empirical.



> Objective truth never stops being true. It has always been true and it will always be true. "I" and "You" will one day be no more. That is why "I" and "You" are not objectively true.
> 
> (I exist + You exist) - (I + You) = Exist.
> 
> Existence has always existed, it exists now, and it will always exist. That is why Existence is objective truth. One day the Ocean and Sky will cease to exist. Yet, Existence will continue to exist indefinitely.



I agree with you about existence but how one defines that can be quite subjective. 



> Ocean and Sky will cease to exist



I agree with you about the ocean which means this earth will cease to exist one day which means our conversation about defining things will also cease  unless we are able to transport ourselves to another planet before that or other beings from other planets have different definitions for things from their own thought processes. Our dialogue would be mute and so may be the definition of existence as we understand it to be today.

Please elaborate what you mean by, "Sky will cease to exist".



> I would use the terms objective, intrinsic and absolute interchangeably in this context.



Once you elaborate each the above with some tangible examples, then we can further interact on it. Are you referring to Absolute Truth as per Abrahamic religions?

I enjoy your thought process. It makes me think outside the box and I want to thank you for that.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Sherdil (Jul 5, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Could you elaborate that with some examples please?



Ek Oankaar is the only objective truth



Tejwant Singh said:


> I agree with you about existence but how one defines that can be quite subjective.



You can attempt to define Existence subjectively, but the validity of such a definition will depend on your belief in it. Like the tea, your subjective interpretation doesn't reveal the truth of what Existence is.

Existence cannot be defined objectively. The French Philosopher, Rene Descartes, categorically disproved the existence of everything he could think of, but he couldn't disprove that he was thinking. This led to his proclamation "I think therefore I am". He believed his existence was tied to his ability to think, but he failed to take the next step and place doubt upon the "I am".

Existence therefore can only be experienced. Experience is usually subjective because it is created by the mind. Therefore, we have to silence the mind to have objective experience. This comes back to the Sunn / Sunyata in my first post. When the mind isn't creating a subjective experience, there is Nothing. It is an absence of duality. It is not distinct from the One. It is a part of the One. It is death while still alive.



Tejwant Singh said:


> I agree with you about the ocean which means this earth will cease to exist one day which means our conversation about defining things will also cease unless we are able to transport ourselves to another planet before that or other beings from other planets have different definitions for things from their own thought processes. Our dialogue would be mute and so may be the definition of existence as we understand it to be today.
> 
> Please elaborate what you mean by, "Sky will cease to exist".



When I mentioned the Ocean and Sky, I was trying to highlight the fact that the mind creates an illusion of them being distinct entities. The mind thinks each entity exists in its own right, but both entities are one and the same. In the absence of duality, there is only One.

Each doesn’t really exist as a distinct entity, because such things are transient. By virtue of them being transient, they are illusory. Only Existence is permanent.


Tejwant Singh said:


> Are you referring to Absolute Truth as per Abrahamic religions?



No. I'm not referring to anything Abrahamic.


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## Original (Jul 6, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> Objective truth is valid regardless of anyone's belief in it.
> 
> Subjective truth is valid only because someone feels it is true.
> 
> ...



 Sher Dil Ji - many thanks !

I wanted us to explore sargun n nirgun, that is, subjective n objective. For exploration purposes, let us nit -pick ? Tea for example. What is it, in the context within which you've employed ? Well, by definition it is dried n prepared leaves of a shrub, which for practical means and purposes is consumed as a beverage. Of course, we know the constituent parts are more than just "tea" leaves to make it a beverage. For there is water, milk, sugar, spices and dried leaves. By definition then, tea is a noun [naming words]. Similarly, "nam" within the meaning of Gurbani is that tea which you've referred to above. It is that nam which is interchangeable, shabd, word, dhur ki bani, towards which house of Nanak points and is taken to be an objective truth, only, insofar human intellect to their best endeavours can best express, but in fact, it isn't. For the truth Nanak speaks about is beyond human subjectivity and objectivity, it is *both* and beyond time n space, *Anhad Shabd. *It exists independently, says Nanak. We've [scholars] tried explaining, expressing, capturing through the use of language and literature, tried debating n discussing, but fall short.  Bhagat Kabir backs it up beautifully:

*Page 340*

ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ  ੴ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਛਰ ਲੋਕ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 340}

Nanak accepts "truth" [satyam] as a *noun*, but goes beyond in admitting it, as an *adjective. *That is to say, higher than truth is truthful living. Guru Nanak, purely from an argumentative nature of man, nips it in the bud by declaring, "you want to talk or you want to meet satnam ? If the latter, come unto my street [sikh] and play the game of love" [1412 SGGSJ].

In the field of theory of knowledge [epistemology], we've set-aside belief, as an area exclusively dependent upon "one's" faith, which, the employment and realisation of cannot be determined by empirical observation and rational analysis. Why ? Because the "moment" experienced by Nanak [mystical, at sultanpur lodhi], was beyond time n space and since mind [rational] and the five senses [emperical] cannot transcend time n space knowledge of it cannot be had.

More another time perhaps, have to get my jogging out of the way. Once again, thank you Sher Dil. Oh, if it be any interest to you, some years back I was privy to confidential information regarding the proceeds of the late Dalip Singh [son of maharana Ranjit Singh].

Enjoy the day !

Ik ong kar [good 2 keep those you love close]


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## Sherdil (Jul 6, 2015)

Original ji,

I agree with most of what you said. Just a few points need to be clarified.

Firstly, I want to make it clear that I described Sat as objective truth because its validity doesn’t depend on anyone’s belief in it. I wasn’t giving a definition to Sat. Sat is its own definition.

Secondly, your statement here:



Original said:


> beyond time n space and since mind [rational] and the five senses [emperical] cannot transcend time n space knowledge of it cannot be had.



I am not saying the Divine can be comprehended by the mind or reduced to empirical observation. I am saying that understanding is obtained through objective experience. This is done by silencing the mind so that the consciousness can sit in the Sunyata undisturbed.

Nothingness cannot be described or thought of. To do so makes it something. It can only be experienced.

P.S. I am keen to learn as much as I can about the Black Prince and the end-times of the Sikh Raj. Unfortunately, I have a lot on my plate at the moment. Hence my limited participation on this forum as of late. Perhaps we can continue the conversation at a future point in time.

All the best.


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## Original (Jul 7, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> Original ji,
> 
> I agree with most of what you said. Just a few points need to be clarified.
> 
> ...



Thank you !

You're on the path - slowly but surely all will come to pass, but for now, allow me the liberty to converse generally.

First n foremost, attend to your obligations [whatever is on your plate] and deal with them accordingly. For a Sikh, an obligation over inclination is recommended -.duty bound [hukam].

And, secondly, your writings have a Buddhist ring to them? Absolutely beautiful if you ask me, because I initially got hooked to Buddist philosophy at an early age due to my martial arts school. And, it wasn't until late in life when on home turf [sikh thought] that I got to know the truth. 

An observation on my part re quote "*This is done by silencing the mind so that the consciousness can sit in the Sunyata undisturbed" *Sherdil. 

As a reflection, consider, *consciousness* to be "all" aliveness, living infinitely, now, today, every moment, tomorrow, yesterday  [ad sach, jugad sach, havi sach, Nanak hosi v sach] ? Consider further, it is we who are in the consciousness [sat], the ever present, omnipotent. Realisation of it is becoming more n more transparent as if cloud dissipating by the piercing rays of the sun and as a result, we are elevating in our "self, our being" and becoming, and being enveloped by the subtleness of it All. Sehaj, the component part of our being goes into auto drive, the journey's cruise control takes over and effortlessly do the mind,  unperturbed, enjoys vacation.

Now that is just "my" way of showing you something. Please be advised, I have no inclinations to indoctrinate or sway anyone from their chosen path. However, from a Sikh perspective it is helpful, in my view, to understand Nanak's philosophy from that of Gautma Buddha. Why ? Because Buddha, a prince who in early life enjoyed life to the max and later constructed his philosophical thought upon the premise "suffering", whereas Nanak, constructed his on the concept that life is to be "celebrated". Although, the destination re spiritually is pretty much complimentary, but the journey is more enjoyable if you're in Nanak's camp. And, the proof is in the pudding - Sikh as a "particular" social group is always fattah chucking.

Enjoy the day !


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## Sherdil (Jul 7, 2015)

Original said:


> Thank you !
> 
> You're on the path - slowly but surely all will come to pass, but for now, allow me the liberty to converse generally.
> 
> ...



Sunyata means void. In Buddhism, it is a seen as a state of mind in which you empty yourself of yourself. In Sikhi, Sunyata is the reality behind the illusion of Maya. The mind creates the illusion through a sense of self and non-self, and through empirical observation. Going back to the Ocean and the Sky. It sees both but it doesn’t understand that they are one in the same. Going beyond site, touch, smell, sound, etc. the true reality emerges. That is Nothing.

Gurbani speaks of the Sunn / Sunyata. The One sat in this Sunn in the primordial beginning. When it was pleasing to the One, the creation sprang forth. The One is still whole and the Sunn is still permeating underneath the illusion.

You say you are not here to sway anyone either way, yet you distinguish yourself as the authority on who is in “Nanak’s camp” and who is not. Maybe it is not “Nanak’s camp” you are describing. Maybe it is “Original’s camp”.

Take care.


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## Original (Jul 7, 2015)

Sherdil said:


> Sunyata means void. In Buddhism, it is a seen as a state of mind in which you empty yourself of yourself. In Sikhi, Sunyata is the reality behind the illusion of Maya. The mind creates the illusion through a sense of self and non-self, and through empirical observation. Going back to the Ocean and the Sky. It sees both but it doesn’t understand that they are one in the same. Going beyond site, touch, smell, sound, etc. the true reality emerges. That is Nothing.
> 
> Gurbani speaks of the Sunn / Sunyata. The One sat in this Sunn in the primordial beginning. When it was pleasing to the One, the creation sprang forth. The One is still whole and the Sunn is still permeating underneath the illusion.
> 
> ...


Sherdil Ji

I use the term "Nanak's camp" to express subjectivity on the matter to hand and never an objective authority. That, I suppose comes naturally to me because of evolutionary traits, such as, culture, environment and genetics. I apologise for any inadvertent bias on my part which may have as a result conflicted with your natural disposition.

Many thanks


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## Harry Haller (Jan 30, 2016)

Original said:


> I use the term "Nanak's camp" to express subjectivity on the matter to hand and never an objective authority.



You tend to use these phrases to validate whatever it is your writing



Original said:


> That, I suppose comes naturally to me because of evolutionary traits, such as, culture, environment and genetics.



so does my huge fascination with the baser things in life, if you ask me, the reasons above do not justify any opinion or way of life. I would go so far as to say that I only really started to grow, in my opinion, when I rejected culture and environment, and accepted my genetics. 



Original said:


> I apologise for any inadvertent bias on my part which may have as a result conflicted with your natural disposition.



why apologise? You are biased, hugely, you have no wish to push forward the boundaries, to join the renaissance that is going on within Sikhism,  so be proud of that bias, speak for those that value faith more than advancement.

you may think this is a critical post, far from it, you are what you are, if what you are is a firm believer in your way, and you have absolutely no interest in anything else, then stand up and be proud and be counted, use your intellect to put forward your theories, allow them to be tested, see if they stand up, that is what happens in a forum.


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## swarn bains (Jan 31, 2016)

the child cries at birth, he knows that he or she has come into the hell and struggles the whole life
others shed crocodile tears when one dies, they are not concerned with his death but they are scared of their own death


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