# Sabd Guru On Sword (ਖੜਗੁ/ਖੰਡਾ)



## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 26, 2009)

*Sabd Guru on Sword (ਖੜਗੁ/ਖੰਡਾ)*​ 
A Sikh should wear a sword/kirpan of spiritual wisdom .Kirpan’s size has come down from 42 inches to 4 to 6 inches. Its ancient use as a defensive weapon is out of date in view of the present technologically of superior weapons. Should one have to protect self or some one; a more sophisticated weapon can do the job. During my life time I have not seen it being used as a defensive weapon to save some one but is definitly been used often in Gurudwara fights leading to legal consequences and dragging the name of Sikhs in media down the drain. Emotionally wearing it for show of spirituality it can be a few inches long and preferably stitched in. When flying now a days they willingly surrender it otherwise walking or riding a horse will take them years to reach the west.

Why it cannot be worn as a small symbol in a chain around the neck or some where else since it cannot be used for defensive purposes in the present context?

Using it as a small symbol in a comb or necklace can fulfill the emotional and religious needs of the Sikhs as I did in my youth. 

The word sword/double edged sword has been used in Sabd Guru for Virtue, Spiritual wisdom, Spiritual path, Name of the Akal Purkh. Here few references;

ਤਰਕਸ ਤੀਰ ਕਮਾਣ ਸਾਂਗ ਤੇਗਬੰਦ ਗੁਣ ਧਾਤੁ ॥ 

_Ŧarkas ṯīr kamāṇ sāŉg ṯėgbanḏ guṇ ḏẖāṯ._

The pursuit of virtue is my bow and arrow, my quiver, sword and scabbard. -----Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 16-17

ਗਿਆਨ ਖੜਗੁ ਲੈ ਮਨ ਸਿਉ ਲੂਝੈ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਮਾਈ ਹੇ ॥

_Gi-aan Kharhag Lai Man Si-o Loojhai Mansaa Maneh Samaa-ee Hay._

Taking up the sword of spiritual wisdom, duality struggles with the mind, and hope and desire are smoothed over in her mind. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1022-13

ਖੰਡੇ ਧਾਰ ਗਲੀ ਅਤਿ ਭੀੜੀ ॥ ਲੇਖਾ ਲੀਜੈ ਤਿਲ ਜਿਉ ਪੀੜੀ ॥ 

_Kẖandė ḏẖār galī aṯ bẖīṛī. Lėkẖā lījai ṯil ji&shy;o pīṛī._

The spiritual path is very narrow, like the sharp edge of a sword. When his account is read, he shall be crushed like the sesame seed in the mill. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page,1028-7

ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਅਤਿ ਖੜਗੁ ਕਰਾਰਾ ॥ ਦੂਜਾ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਗੜੁ ਕਟਿਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਾ ॥

_Gur Tay Gi-aan Paa-i-aa At Kharhag Karaaraa. Ḏūjā bẖaram gaṛ kati&shy;ā moh lobẖ ahaŉkārā._

From the Guru, I have obtained the supremely powerful sword of spiritual wisdom. I have cut down the fortress of duality and doubt, attachment, greed and egotism.
-----Guru Amardas, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1087-4

ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਖੜਗੁ ਹਥਿ ਧਾਰਿਆ ਜਮੁ ਮਾਰਿਅੜਾ ਜਮਕਾਲਿ ॥

_Gur Gi-aan Kharhag Hath Dhaari-aa Jam Maari-arhaa Jamkaal._

You hold in your hands the sword of the Guru's spiritual wisdom; with this destroyer of death, kill the Messenger of Death. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 235-4

ਖੰਨਿਅਹੁ ਤਿਖੀ ਵਾਲਹੁ ਨਿਕੀ ਏਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਜਾਣਾ ॥

_Kẖanni&shy;ahu ṯikẖī vālahu nikī ėṯ mārag jāṇā. _


The path they take is sharper than a two-edged sword, and finer than a hair. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 918-19

ਗਿਆਨ ਖੜਗ ਪੰਚ ਦੂਤ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਜਾਗੈ ਸੋਇ ॥

_Gi&shy;ān kẖaṛag pancẖ ḏūṯ sangẖārė gurmaṯ jāgai so&shy;ė._

With the sword of spiritual wisdom, kill the five demons. Remain awake and aware to the Guru's Teachings. -----Guru Amar Das, Raag Sloke Vaaran To Vadeek, AGGS, Page, 1414-6

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਕਾ ਖੜਗੁ ਸੰਜੋਉ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਾਲੁ ਕੰਟਕੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਵਿਡਾਰਿਆ ॥

_Saṯgurū kā kẖaṛag sanjo&shy;o har bẖagaṯ hai jiṯ kāl kantak mār vidāri&shy;ā._

Devotional worship of the Akal Purkh is the sword and armor of the True Guru; and has killed and cast out Death, the torturer. -----Guru Ram Das, Raag, AGGS, Page, 312-13

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਗਿਆਨ ਖੜਗੁ ਹਥਿ ਦੀਨਾ ਜਮਕੰਕਰ ਮਾਰਿ ਬਿਦਾਰੇ ॥

_Saṯgur gi&shy;ān kẖaṛag hath ḏīnā jamkankar mār biḏārė._

True Guru has placed the sword of spiritual wisdom in my hands; I have overcome and slain the Messenger of Death. -----Guru Ram Das, Raag Vadhans, AGGS, Page, 574-14

ਮਾਨ ਮੋਹ ਮੇਰ ਤੇਰ ਬਿਬਰਜਿਤ ਏਹੁ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਖੰਡੇ ਧਾਰ ॥ 

_Mān moh mėr ṯėr bibarjiṯ ėhu mārag kẖandė ḏẖār._ 

To forsake pride, emotional attachment, and the sense of 'mine and yours', is the path of the double-edged sword. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Devgandhari, AGGS, Page, 534-13

ਗਰੀਬੀ ਗਦਾ ਹਮਾਰੀ॥ ਖੰਨਾ ਸਗਲ ਰੇਨ ਛਾਰੀ॥ ਇਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਕੋ ਨ ਟਿਕੈ ਵੇਕਾਰੀ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਏਹ ਗਲ ਸਾਰੀ॥ 

_Gareebee Gadda Hamaree, Khanna Sagal Rayn Chaari, Iss Aagai Ko Na Tikai Vaykaaree,Gur Pooray Ayh Gal Saaree._

Humility is my mace, and being the dust of the dust of all men’s feet is my two edged sword, which no evildoer can withstand. The matter has been arranged by the perfect Guru. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 628-13

ਗਿਆਨ ਖੜਗੁ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਦੀਨਾ ਦੂਤ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਰਿ ਧਾਈ ਹੇ ॥

_Gi-aan Kharhag Kar Kirpaa Deenaa Doot Maaray Kar Dhaa-ee Hay._ 

In Its Mercy, God has blessed me with the sword of spiritual wisdom; I have attacked and killed the demons. -----Guru Arjan, Maru Sohlay, AGGS, Page, 1072-2

ਵਾਟ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਖਰੀ ਉਡੀਣੀ ॥ ਖੰਨਿਅਹੁ ਤਿਖੀ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਪਿਈਣੀ ॥ 

_vāt hamārī kẖarī udīṇī. Kẖanni&shy;ahu ṯikẖī bahuṯ pi&shy;īṇī._ 

The righteous spiritual path is very arduous and difficult as it is sharp and narrow like a two edged sword. -----Sheikh Farid, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 794-15

*Conclusion:*

IMHO a Sikh should wear a sword of spiritual wisdom or a small symbol consistant with local laws fulfilling the religious feelings.

Virinder S.Grewal
Williamston, MI


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 27, 2009)

imho "Kaal Kntaak" is *FEAR OF DEATH*...and this FEAR must be killed.(Mariaah)
The Five "vices" only need to be "controlled"...kept on a short leash...and not allowed to over-run..over-power US..we must remain in CONTROL.
A DEAD sex drive would mean no more humans....but one out of control..means more rapes/molestations/assaults. Similarly "Krodh" is an emotion that must not run wild....controlled anger is necessary in WAR - its called BIR-RASS. Krodh in control..running wild..means road rage..road bullies..domestic violence..child beatings..gang warfare..etc..etc....????


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 28, 2009)

Virinder ji

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> Why it cannot be worn as a small symbol in a chain around the neck or some where else since it cannot be used for defensive purposes in the present context?
> 
> Using it as a small symbol in a comb or necklace can fulfill the emotional and religious needs of the Sikhs as I did in my youth.


 Unfortunately for some these kakaars have become the symbols of show off and ," I am better than you are" arrogant attitude against those who have not taken Khandei de pahul but are Sikhs in their deeds.

One can envision the time not in too distant future when the "Mini-me" versions of 5 kakaars including a  diamond encrusted kachera with a dangling golden nara around people's necks will become the Sikhi nishani.

Tejwant Singh


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 28, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> *Sabd Guru on Sword (ਖੜਗੁ/ਖੰਡਾ)*​
> 
> A Sikh should wear a sword/kirpan of spiritual wisdom .Kirpan’s size has come down from 42 inches to 4 to 6 inches. Its ancient use as a defensive weapon is out of date in view of the present technologically of superior weapons. Should one have to protect self or some one; a more sophisticated weapon can do the job. During my life time I have not seen it being used as a defensive weapon to save some one but is definitly been used often in Gurudwara fights leading to legal consequences and dragging the name of Sikhs in media down the drain. Emotionally wearing it for show of spirituality it can be a few inches long and preferably stitched in. When flying now a days they willingly surrender it otherwise walking or riding a horse will take them years to reach the west.
> 
> ...


 
Majority of these shabads speak of the inner battle and Guru Sahib has used the sword as a metaphor to say fight the 5 theives.  if a person comes to a conclusion that a kirpan is not needed because of the above shabad then they have distorted Gurbani to fit their concept, instead of reading Gurbani and then trying to understand the tuk  in the shabad.

As Guru Sahib has told Sikhs to keep the metaphorical sword fighting the five theives from within and keep the kirpan on the outside as to protect yourself and others from harmful people.  The importance is given more to the inner sword because this will give you the knowledge on how to use the outer sword (kirpan) with control.  Both swords are needed and they serve there purpose to defend.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 28, 2009)

Dear Tej Ji,

Thanks For your comments. It is interesting to observe that I am sharing my experiences or learning’s and other are welcome to share theirs-the purpose of the forum, but it seems to me (may be I am wrong) that I am being attacked directly or indirectly.

I respect all the 5 K's and Sikh Baptism but one should prepare one's self to be worthy of it. You have to prepare the field as a farmer your body and mind by subjugating lower instincts and developing higher instincts with evolvement of good character before jumping on Baptism.

Let me tell you a little happening. Few years ago I just finished writing about "Truth". I asked Manjit (my wife) that let us make an attempt to live the truth. She pleasantly agreed. In about 15 minutes telephone rings and ID tells me it is Republican Party (asking for donation). With out thinking what we have discussed before I blurted out-tell them I am not home and she did. Getting off the phone she shouted that I could not live the Truth even for 15 minutes.

This is what I am talking about 5 K's, Turban, Baptism and when caught for a crime/quarrel then the Sikh Leaders say that they are being profiled.

One has to become a good candidate to become a Khalsa (pure) by cleaning the inner filth first;

ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਮਲਿ ਨਾਉ ॥ਸਭਿ ਗੁਣ ਤੇਰੇ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
Regards.

Virinder


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 28, 2009)

Singh said:


> Majority of these shabads speak of the inner battle and Guru Sahib has used the sword as a metaphor to say fight the 5 theives. if a person comes to a conclusion that a kirpan is not needed because of the above shabad then they have distorted Gurbani to fit their concept, instead of reading Gurbani and then trying to understand the tuk in the shabad.
> 
> As Guru Sahib has told Sikhs to keep the metaphorical sword fighting the five theives from within and keep the kirpan on the outside as to protect yourself and others from harmful people. The importance is given more to the inner sword because this will give you the knowledge on how to use the outer sword (kirpan) with control. Both swords are needed and they serve there purpose to defend.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The difference between us is outer & inner. For me inner comes first following Guru Nanak in Asa the Vaar;
ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਝੂਠੇ ਪੈਜ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਫੈਲੁ ॥ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਜੇ ਨਾਵਹਿ ਉਤਰੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੈਲੁ ॥ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪਟੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਗੁਦੜੁ ਤੇ ਭਲੇ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਨੇਹੁ ਲਗਾ ਰਬ ਸੇਤੀ ਦੇਖਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ 
_An__ḏrahu j__ẖū__ṯẖe paij bāhar __ḏunī▫ā an__ḏar fail. A__ṯẖsa__ṯẖ __ṯirath je nāvėh u__ṯrai nāhī mail. Jinĥ pat an__ḏar bāhar gu__ḏa__ṛ __ṯe b__ẖale sansār. Ŧinĥ nehu lagā rab se__ṯī __ḏek__ẖnĥe vīc__ẖār._

Those who are false within, and honorable on the outside, are very common in this world. Even though they may bathe at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage, still, their filth does not depart. Those who have silk on the inside and rags on the outside, are the good ones in this world. They embrace love for the Akal Purkh, and contemplate beholding It.  
                                                                      -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 473-15
Cordially,

Virinder


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 28, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Tej Ji,
> 
> Thanks For your comments. It is interesting to observe that I am sharing my experiences or learning’s and other are welcome to share theirs-the purpose of the forum, but it seems to me (may be I am wrong) that I am being attacked directly or indirectly.
> 
> ...


 
Virinder Ji,

Guru Fateh.

For me Khalsa means one who is pure hearted. Nothing more. And in order to be pure hearted one needs a  continues action of breeding goodness within. That is why Guru Nanak used the word  "Vin gun kitei Bhagat nah HOYEI",not BANEI or to have become because words like Bhagat, Brahmagyani etc etc that are used in Gurbani are not used as TITLES but traits of continuous actions. It is like the spring of water. The moment the water stops coming, it is just a hole in the ground. Our Gurus used the right language and showed us the subtle difference through this beautiful poetry.

I want to thank you for your dedication and hard work and only Ik Ong kaar knows which milestone each of us is at. Some Sikhs will never cease playing God by judging others. 

So I would suggest, you carry on what you are doing. You are doing a great service to all of us. Atleast I am learning a lot from your hardwork and dedication and depth. It is your journey as it is the journey of the individual and each of us carries our own spiritual torch.

Tejwant Singh

PS:- Do you remember a Sikh candidate from Illinois if I am  not mistaken who ran as a Senator from the GOP in the primaries many years ago and lost? I think he was a doctor.


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 28, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The difference between us is outer & inner. For me inner comes first following Guru Nanak in Asa the Vaar;
> ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਝੂਠੇ ਪੈਜ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਫੈਲੁ ॥ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਜੇ ਨਾਵਹਿ ਉਤਰੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੈਲੁ ॥ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪਟੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਗੁਦੜੁ ਤੇ ਭਲੇ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਨੇਹੁ ਲਗਾ ਰਬ ਸੇਤੀ ਦੇਖਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
> _An__ḏrahu j__ẖū__ṯẖe paij bāhar __ḏunī▫ā an__ḏar fail. A__ṯẖsa__ṯẖ__ṯirath je nāvėh u__ṯrai nāhī mail. Jinĥ pat an__ḏar bāhar gu__ḏa__ṛ__ṯe b__ẖale sansār. Ŧinĥ nehu lagā rab se__ṯī __ḏek__ẖnĥe vīc__ẖār._
> ...


 
Virinder, I'm advise you to read my post again.  I have stated that:

The *importance* is given more to the *inner sword* because this will give you the *knowledge* on how to *use the outer sword (kirpan) with control.* 

I never said outer sword comes first, you have misintrepreted what I said as you can see above what I said from the start.

Thanks for the shabad though


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## sadhu (Mar 28, 2009)

virendr ji



> Why it cannot be worn as a small symbol in a chain around the neck or some where else since it cannot be used for defensive purposes in the present context?
> 
> Using it as a small symbol in a comb or necklace can fulfill the emotional and religious needs of the Sikhs as I did in my youth.


 
You are right.
I agree with you absolutely.


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 28, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Why it cannot be worn as a small symbol in a chain around the neck or some where else since it cannot be used for defensive purposes in the present context?
> 
> Using it as a small symbol in a comb or necklace can fulfill the emotional and religious needs of the Sikhs as I did in my youth.
> 
> ...


 
What is the point of wearing it around the neck in a chain?  And who said the Kirpan can't be used as for defensive purposes?  Also why don't those people that wear it around there neck as a small symbol put a little *Kachera* in there as well and while there at it put some hair in the necklace aswell and to finish it off put a little kara in there aswell.  Then they don't have to keep there hair uncut, wear a kirpan, a kara, carry a comb, and they can go commando style, without a kacheraa.

If you wear the 5 kakkar then wear them the way Guru Sahib gave them to us.  And about the kirpan lenght, the 4 inch or 6 inch can still help defend a person when in need to defend oneself or another.  You don't need a weapon to defend yourself, but Guru Sahib's  Sikhs have the right to wear one and every Sikh should execrise this right.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 28, 2009)

Dear Teji Ji,

I can find out who ran as a senator from Illinois but I do not remember. I just posted one Swaeeya of Guru Gibind Singh Ji on Khalsa Pure & impure of your comment but here it is for ready refrence;
ਜਾਗਤਿ ਜੋਤ ਜਪੈ ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਨ ਨੈਕ ਨ ਆਨੈ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਸਜੈ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਗੋਰ ਮੜੀ ਮਟ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਦਾਨ ਦਇਆ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹ ਏਕ ਪਛਾਨੈ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਜੋਤ ਜਗੈ ਘਟ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਖਾਲਸ ਤਾਹਿ ਨਖਾਲਸ ਜਾਨੈ ॥ 
_Jaagat Joat Japai Nis Basar Ayk Bina Man Naik Na Aanai.Pooran Prem Partit Sajai Barat Gor Marhi Matt Bhool Na Manai.Ttheerathh Daan Dayaa Tap Sanjam Ayk Binaa Neh Ayk Pashhaanai.Pooran joth jagai ghatt mai thab khaalas thaahi nakhaalas jaanai._

He, who remembers the ever-awakened Light throughout night and day and does not bring anyone else in the mind, and practices his vow with whole hearted affection and does not believe in even by oversight, the graves, Hindu monuments and monasteries; and does not recognize anyone else except One God, not even the bestowal of charities, performance of merciful acts, austerities and restraint on pilgrim-stations; the perfect light of the God illuminates his heart, then one comes to know immaculate Pure from impure. -----DG, Page, 712

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 29, 2009)

Guru Piayario Jios,

The "Inner sword of GYAAN"...and the Outer sword complement each other...and THAT is the entire philosophy of MIRI-PIRI. One cannot do without the other. There simply cannot be ONLY the Inner sword of Gyaan...and no need for any self defence when the "Sant" is attacked..because the KHALSA is defender of the oppressed..the weak....We Sikhs have no concept of "turning the other cheek so as to get a stronger whack from the aggressor....Sikhs return the "favour" in a much stronger version,,always.
I can well live with the assertion that the outer Sword is MUCH MUCH EASIER to carry..just BUY one from a Krpan shop....BUT the INNER SWORD may not materialise even after decades of effort....a person may become 70 or even 90 years old and still not have the "inner sword sharp enough /long enough to cut the tiniest bit of haumaii/lust/kaam/krodh/jealousy etc welling inside of him

2. Sword/Khanda as a modern weapon has been disparaged many times...yet when the Queen ( for example) wants to KNIGHT someone...she doesnt place a Nuclear Warhead on his shoulder..but uses a sword.  A SIKH in the US Army or in his F35/Nighthawk F17 would certainly use the Nuclear Warhead attached to his plane...and NOT insist on using his Kirpan !!
There is a PLACE for the KIRPAN?SWORD?KHANDA and there is a place for "modern weapons".
Guru Ji in Anandpur Battles reportedly used a wooden Cannon...and also used RIFLES etc. This shows that even Guru Ji knew the value and time and palce for any weapon..and could have mandated the RIFLE as a personal weapon...or an AK47..or the Stinger Missile...
The truth is the SWORD has  avery special place as a SYMBOL of POWER..its still used all over the world as a SYMBOL in places where this required...in Malaysia also the Guard of Honour for visiting dignatories gives " shade with naked swords"...as required..and this is certainly done....as SYMBOLIC.
3. ALL KHALSA are SIKHS..but not all Sikhs can be KHALSA. That is reality but the KHALSA will always remain....and they will always be in a minscule minority..and these minority will never give up their RIGHTS..dastaars, full length kirpans...and they are getting more and more acceptance..even in the Western countries....shows their resilience in the face of much adversity and even suggestions that their kirpan can be tiny/sewed up..etc..THAT sort of "symbolism" is utterly ridiculous..it doesnt fool anyone.Kirpan _ small or tiny or sewed up is NOT Mandatory for SIKHS....only for the KHALSA....so sikhs who dont feel comfortable with it are not forced to carry it..just as no immigration will accept a "photocopied passport"..no self respecting KHALSA will accept a sewed up tiny kirpan. Its  a fruitless task to carry on " defence" of a photocopied passport.:happy:


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 29, 2009)

Dear Singh Ji,

With due apologies, I have not seen or read it being used to defend or save any one but definiutly have heard,read, seen being used in Gurudwara fights or commit murder during my life time.

I have also seen Sikhs being insulted in media and dragged through courts and to jail. I also have seen because the removal of it Sikhs have been denied travel or to meet other political leaders. It does not make one a good Sikh. To become a good Sikh one has to earn it through deeds and not external show. Please wait for my post how to become a better human?

Thanks for your debate any how.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 29, 2009)

its a simple matter really....we keep on debating and making it sound all so "argumentative".
A simple example of a policeman. He wears a Uniform...its essential..its necessary...and he takes an OATH to honour it.
BUT..everyone knows just the "uniform" doesnt make one a policeman...he has to have internal VALUES...honesty/integrity/compassion/hardworking...etc etc etc to be  a GOOD policeman.
He can go "undercover"...sans his uniform...and still be a good policeman...and he can wear his uniform..and be on the Take/corrupt/interfere with evidence/fake encounters/plant evidence...in other words be a BAD policeman..... we can "blame" his UNIFORM..we can blame his "weak internal value system"...  For EACH case of a BAD policeman wearing his uniform...i can cite many thousands of Good Policeman wearing uniforms...and "BAD" undervover policeman not wearing uniforms...
So we have to accept that there are BAD "Khalsa" ( who wear the Khalsa uniform just for show)..and Equally BAD "Sikhs" who are clean shaven - both out and in and BAD in and out...and who go on blaming the khalsa uniform for ills they see and do...
Its the case of the Six Blind men of Hindoostan who went to see the elephant....no solution to this...
:welcome:


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 29, 2009)

Dear Giani Ji,

Please do not take it personally. I am not against the Uniform which acts as a deterrent for illegal or immoral activities and is the right step towards spiritual growth but is useless until and unless inner filth is removed. Unfortunately it is the individual who knows his self. It is an academic debate and a response to an argumentative individual.

The fact of the matter is bad Khalsa should avoid the media, while other Sikhs do not harm the faith in the media at large.


ਜੇ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਚੰਗਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਕਰਿ ਪੁੰਨਹੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਸਦਾਈਐ ॥​ 

_Je lo__ṛ__ėh c__ẖ__anga āp__ṇ__ā kar punnhu nīc__ẖ__ sa__ḏ__ā▫ī▫ai._​ 



If you yearn for goodness, then perform good deeds and feel humble.​ 
Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 465-16​ 



There is a battle that goes on inside people. The battle is between two things;
Evil.
Good.
Evil is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

Good is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."

The question is which one wins?

“The one you feed”​ 


Regards.

Virinder


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 29, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Singh Ji,
> With due apologies, I have not seen or read it being *used to defend or save any one* but definiutly have heard,read, seen being used in Gurudwara fights or commit murder during my life time.


 
This statement has no meaning because a Gurdwara fight can break out and a person could have used it in *self-*defense. Also the same could be said about the murder, it could have been *self*-defense. Until the Sangat here and I don't get further information about these two situations you presented, we can't come to a conclusion that they were not in *self*-defense. So go further into this statement.

Also just because you have not read the Kirpan being used in self defense or to protect others doesn't mean it has not been used as self-defense or to defend others. I always tell my brother this, your not the center of the earth.

And to counter this, I have heard it been used in self-defense when a Singhs family, was being harassed and himself by a angry mob. In this real life event the Singh protected himself and his family.




> I have also seen Sikhs being insulted in media and dragged through courts and to jail. I also have seen because the removal of it Sikhs have been denied travel or to meet other political leaders. It does not make one a good Sikh. To become a good Sikh one has to earn it through deeds and not external show.


 
Virinder, Guru Sahib wouldn't even take the Kirpan off when he would take a bath. Here's what I already said on this issue, no need to write it all out again.  I'm give you my quote from this thread I repeated to you twice, this will be the third and from a different thread; Hair, where I make it even more crystal clear.

'The *importance* is given more to the *inner sword* because this will give you the *knowledge* on how to *use the outer sword (kirpan) with control.'* 

*This one from the hair thread:*
'For me it does not matter as Guru Sahib taught us, if you cut your hair, kept your hair intact, and if you have taken Amrit. The important thing in all three of these types of people is that they still have to progress on the path of Sikhi; and some are closer than others to attain the state of Khalsa. A person that cuts hair and doesn't follow Sikhi, a person that kept hair and doesn't follow Sikhi, and a person that took Amrit and just wears the 5 kakkars are all in one category because their life has become a ritual. These last three because of their ignorance have thought for some reason all they need to do is keep practicing equality and deny rest of Sikhi teaching, kept hair but denied rest of teaching, took Amrit, but didn't bother to progress, take anyone of them and they are practicing a ritual. 

Progress and keep learning is what we all are doing. In this progress all I ask for is, if you don't want to progress any further, than don't try to justify it because there is no need and this is between you and Guruji. ( this includes all of the sangat here, which includes me neither am I saying a person is doing this.) When I declared myself Sikh of the Guru then I took a oath and promised Guru ji i will not stop on this path till I reach the state of Khalsa, with your(Guru ji's) kirpa that is my lifes goal as you(Guru ji) taught me to give my head for the teachings. I follow my Guru ji and don't pay attention to public opinion.'


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## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2009)

vsgrewal ji

I am glad that you mentioned the issue of gurdwara fights. There are several examples on the Internet. it seems that the continents of the earth are populated with 'messengers of truth" who are legends in their own minds. When a sangat has invited a scholar to speak and the topic is not to the liking of the squads of truth as they have self-designated they do things like chant the name of Waheguru over and over to drown out the speaker over the microphone.

This is not exactly what I would call the flower of Sikhism -- but it is a trend -- as if the ends justify the means. Take the name of the Divine Akaal and use it in vain -- if the cause is "good ."  And then everyone has a good laugh and makes a movie for YouTube. 

Please stay in your groove...:welcome: (means don't let your message become dull)
Antonia


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 29, 2009)

Dear Singh Ji,

Please read my multiple threads posted today and you will find the answers to your questions.

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 29, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Singh Ji,
> 
> Please read my multiple threads posted today and you will find the answers to your questions.
> 
> ...


 
Virinder, I have no questions just asking you to go indepth on the Gurdwara fighting and murder statement you made.

Singh


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 29, 2009)

Dear Singh Ji,

I have no interest in this dialogue and subject. There is no Gurdwara of Sikhs where there has not been a fight or legal consequences. I stay out of these but these facts you get in to the web and find out. My interest is in spirituality not material physical objects. The materialistic mind degrades the spiritual to the carnal by wearing material symbols of any kind. This leads to dragging the higher nature to the lower, instead of being purified and lifted up by the spiritual wisdom.

Thanks.

Virinder


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 29, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Singh Ji,
> I have no interest in this dialogue and subject.


 
I was asking for a more indepth description from you so assumptions are not made and a big thing get made out of it. If you don't want to go on with it then thats fine with me.



> There is no Gurdwara of Sikhs where there has not been a fight or legal consequences.


 
Majority of it started because of the chairs and tables in the langar hall. Some just can't obey to edicts. Too much ego. 



> I stay out of these but these facts you get in to the web and find out.


Since you were specifically talking about Gurdwara fights then it's only right to ask, which one's you are refering. You don't want to say so that's fine.



> My interest is in spirituality not material physical objects.


 
Same here!



> The materialistic mind degrades the spiritual to the carnal by wearing material symbols of any kind. This leads to dragging the higher nature to the lower, instead of being purified and lifted up by the spiritual wisdom.


 
Since you are speaking of the materialistic mind then this would *not* include the 5 Kakkars or the two swords Guru HarGobind Singh Sahib ji wore; Symbolizing Miri and Piri that will degrade the spirituality in a person.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 29, 2009)

Dear Singh Ji,

My postings are explicit and clear.

I am not interested in debating material things. My interest is spirituality. I can get every thing out of AGGS as I need.

Thanks for your clarifications and interaction.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 29, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Singh Ji,
> 
> My postings are explicit and clear.
> 
> ...


 
Just to clear something up further the 5 kakkar are apart of spirituality for a Sikh


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 29, 2009)

Singh Ji-SoBe It

Please let go now.

Thanks.

Virinder


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 29, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Singh Ji-SoBe It
> 
> Please let go now.
> 
> ...


 
Virinder, as the information comes to me I write it, I'm working on a school assignment and writing on this site, when I get a chance and, if i forget to say something I just add it in another post. Don't take this as a personal thing.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 29, 2009)

Dear Singh Ji,

Could you find out for me that why the Sabd of Guru Arjan in Raag Ramkali is of two lines only and does not end in the name of Nanak?

ਰਣ ਝੁੰਝਨੜਾ ਗਾਉ ਸਖੀ ਹਰਿ ਏਕੁ ਧਿਆਵਹੁ ॥ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਤੁਮ ਸੇਵਿ ਸਖੀ ਮਨਿ ਚਿੰਦਿਅੜਾ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਵਹੁ ॥ 

_Raṇ jẖunjẖnaṛā gā&shy;o sakẖī har ėk ḏẖi&shy;āvahu. Saṯgur ṯum sėv sakẖī man cẖinḏi&shy;aṛā fal pāvhu._

Sing the melodious harmonies, O my companions, and meditate on the One Lord. Serve your True Guru, O my companions, and you shall obtain the fruits of your mind's desires. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 927

Cordially,

Virinder


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## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2009)

virinderj i

I would also like to know the answer. This is a new question for me. Thank you!


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 29, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> virinderj i
> 
> I would also like to know the answer. This is a new question for me. Thank you!


 
I would also like to know the answer aad ji, its a new question for me aswell

Let's see what the members have to say here


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 29, 2009)

Dear Tony & Singh Ji,

Let us find out from other members because my answer will be coming later.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2009)

Well I know that shabad is the shortest one in the Guru Granth.  Also there was an article about this in the past year in World Sikh News. But the article did not address the reason why Nanak was not included at the end of the Shabad. Thanks Virinder for bringing this up.


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## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2009)

The article I was thinking of


 
The Sikh HAIKU
            One Line Poem in Guru Granth Sahib Ji
 Nanak Singh Nishter

 _             Activist-academic and poet, Nanak Singh              ‘Nishter’ presents a unique form of poetry in Guru Granth Sahib Ji,              a literary gem hitherto less explored.  The increasing popularity of              this erudite mode of communication should inspire lay Sikhs and              scholars alike to spend more time to rediscover their roots.  Seeped              in devotion, ‘Nishter’ –as the name suggests –presents an incisive              account of this tradition of Japanese origin.  The author also              offers a simple and practical plan for every Sikh to follow. WSN              will celebrate the 300 years of Guruship to Guru Granth Sahib by              providing similar insight to various aspects of Shabad Guru._

A Japanese poet introduced “One-line poetry” to the              modern world at the end of the nineteenth century. Named as _Haiku_,              this type of poetry              denotes a new and self-contained style of short poetry.              It was developed in  Japan some 400 years              ago.  In recent times,              various poetic movements have also deliberately produced one-line              poems. In the early part of the              twentieth century, a French poet wrote one-line poetry.  It was              followed by English poets in               England and United States. Currently, it is quiet popular in English              literature.


 Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which was compiled between 1599              and 1604, also contains one-line poetry. Readers and scholars alike              are not aware of this most precious literary heritage of India,              which was composed much before people of the world could imagine              about it.  Unfortunately, there is no literature or record in              libraries, archives or museums to substantiate our claim.  There is              no writing on this pattern of poetry even in the history of Hindi,              Punjabi or any other literature.


Guru Granth Sahib Ji              is much more than a spiritual guide and world teacher for honest              living, uniting people and upholding dignity of all castes, creed              and gender.  It is also a matchless treasure for protection of              Indian civilization, classical ragas, reference to historical              events, inspiration for sovereignty for individuals, religions and              the country. 



Guru Granth Sahib Ji              is an un-imaginary literary collection which can serve to be the              source of guidance and inspiration for the dead souls of entire              humanity and preparing them to meet the multifarious challenges of              life for generations to come. 



The Bani (hymns) of              Bhagats in Guru Granth Sahib Ji in _Raag Sarang_ starts from              page1251.  It contains two _shabads_ of Bhagat Kabir Ji, three             _shabads_ of Bhagat Namdev Ji and one _shabad_ of Bhagat              Parmanand Ji.  The total number of _shabads_ at the last is              given as 6.  Afterwards there is only one line:
“Cwf              mn hir ibmuKn ko sMg”
_ Chaad mun Har              bemukhan ko sung._
_
_​ It means_,              “O ‘my mind, get rid of the company of non-believers of God.”_
_
_
No heading is given              to it nor is any number given after this line.  This one line              contains the complete text of a teaching.  In no way can this one              line can be described as a missing line from another poem.  This is              a complete poem in itself and is in concurrence with the meters of              the classical _Raag Sarang_.  This style of poetry is called              One-Line Poetry, which has disappeared from Indian soil.  It is              gaining popularity throughout the world and has attained a              significant position in English poetry.  Regrettably, various              translators of Gurbani have not done justice to this unique              concept.  Almost all of them have described it as one line of a _             shabad,_ but hardly has anyone described it as a _shabad_ of              one line.  The prime reason is that this art of poetry has vanished              from this land and nobody is aware of it. 



After this one line,              the _shabad_ is inscribed with the heading of “mhlw              5 sUrdws”              i.e., “_Shabad _of Guru Arjan Sahib Ji with Surdas”, which has              been placed as an explanation with reference to this _shabad_              of Bhagat Surdas Ji.   In this _shabad_, Guru Sahib has              suggested the ways and means to get rid of the company of              non-believers.  After this, the total number of _Shabads_ is              given as 8.  This clearly indicates that the one line of Bhagat              Surdas Ji has been taken as a complete _shabad_.  That is why              the total number of _shabads _is given as 8 to the _shabad_              after this one line _shabad_.  After this _shabad _there              is one _shabad_ of Bhagat Kabir Ji and the total number _             shabad_ is given as 9, which ends the _shabad_ of _Raag              Saarang_ chapter. 



 *Apart from this there is a two-line shabad of Guru Arjan              Sahib Ji on page 927 with the heading “Raag Ram Kali Mohalla Punjwan”.               This shabad also delivers complete meaning of the shabad,              in just two lines and is complete in the meters of the classical             **Raag Ramkali. 
**


* *rwgu rwmklI mhlw 5 ]
            rxJuMJnVw gwau sKI hir eyku              iDAwvhu ]
            siqguru qum syiv sKI min              icMidAVw Plu pwvhu ]

*​ *Raag Ramkali Mohalla              V


 Runjhunjhunda gavo              sakhi Har ek dhyiyavaho.  
            Satguru tum sev              sakhi mun chindiyada phal pavaho.

*​ *It means, “O              ‘friends, sing the melodious songs praising the Absolute One God. O              ’friends, by reflecting upon Satguru (God), the desires will be              fulfilled.” 

* 

Why are we not aware              of these facts?  How many of us know what is Guru Granth Sahib Ji,              and why was Guruship conferred on it?  In recent years we have              formed committees of _Satkar_ (respect), resulting in not              allowing the convenient handing over of Guru Granth Sahib Ji to              persons desirous of having _Parkash_ in private chapels in              their homes.  Some babas and sants are busy collecting huge sums of              money for construction of _“Angitha Sahib”_.  They are keener              on collecting bodies of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and cremating them at              several places.  According to the 2001 Census, 39.45% of the Sikhs              are totally illiterate and maximum illiteracy is in Panjab.  A large              number of people in Panjab do not know how to read or write any              language!  Out of those who know how to read, how many of read Guru              Granth Sahib Ji is a question each Sikh should ask oneself. 



In the year 1999, we              celebrated the “Khalsa Tercentenary” at Takht Keshgarh Sahib and              conferred the title of “Nishan-i-Khalsa” to Khuswant Singh.  In one              of his well-read columns, which appeared in leading newspapers of              the country in June 2004, I was astonished to read his remark,              “Having spent the best part of my life working on Sikh history and              translating selected passages of Gurbani, I felt I owed it to myself              to read the Granth Sahib from cover to cover”.   In the least, he              was honest. 



If this is the              position of the ninety year old “Nishan-i-Khalsa” title holder, what              about the ordinary Sikh?  We do not read Guru Granth Sahib Ji              ourselves, nor do we allow others to have easy access to its              content.  It is the need of the hour for every Sikh to think over              this issue, do soul-searching and devise novel means to popularize              the contents of our Guru Sahib, instead of converting it into an              icon of worship, which is plainly antithetical to the teachings of              Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which repeatedly cautions Sikhs and everyone              else, not to worship any object, except the One Formless God. 



Sikhism is the              latest of all the religions.  Bearing in mind the shortcomings of              the existing religions, it was modeled to meet the worldly and              spiritual challenges of coming generations.  It is designed on the              basis of the experience and genius of ten Guru Sahibs, over their              life-span of 239 years.  Guruship was conferred on Guru Granth Sahib              Ji to teach and Sikhs were asked to constantly learn from it.  It is              a compilation and collection of the teachings of six Gurus and              thirty other pious souls over a period of five hundred years from              Hazrat Baba Sheikh Farid Ji (1175-1265) to Guru Teg Bahadar Ji              (1621-1675).  It is a unique theological compendium in multiple              languages spoken in the Indian sub-continent. 



             Rituals and rites              are not religion in Sikhism, _Shabad_ (knowledge) and its              implementation is its true essence.  Every learned Sikh should              consider it his earnest duty to know the philosophy, ideology and              scriptures of his privileged faith.  Every Sikh should read and              recite the entire Guru Granth Sahib Ji at least once in his lifetime              if possible repeatedly, before their relatives arrange the Bhog of              the Path for the peace of his soul.   This will bring about immense              positive change in one’s life.  The last Path (recitation) arranged              by relatives at the time of departure of the soul from this world              may not alter one’s fate. 



The relationship of              the Guru and Sikh is that of teacher and student. Without learning              from our Guru and without following the relationship, can we claim              to be a Sikh?  Those of us, who cannot read Gurbani in Gurmukhi              script, should resolve to learn it. In consonance with the teachings              of our Gurus, we should teach atleast one Sikh, either from our              family, neighbourhood or even a stranger, to read and understand              Gurbani.  Let us pledge, _“Each One–Teach One_” Gurbani in              Gurmukhi Script.  This will make you proud of your faith and              continue a chain of learning for generations to come. 



_






A              regular columnist for World Sikh News, __              Nanak Singh “Nishter” is a Hyderabad based orator, writer and Urdu              poet. He is an activist-academician making immense contribution to              the social and cultural welfare of Sikh society.  He has presented              papers at national and international seminars on Sikhism and social              problems. He is director of International Sikh Centre for Interfaith              Relations. He may be contacted at               nanaknishter@gmail.com_


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## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2009)

*I would like to detect an absence of the sarcasm I am detecting in your posts Singh ji. You have backed off from the frontal assault and into something less overt. aad0002*


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 30, 2009)

Dear Tony Ji,

The Sikh scholars have a fear of their job or being excummunicated from the faith by SGPC-so they get scared in coldly disssecting the questions being raised.

Two years ago I visited a friend in Halifax, England where he requested me to speak. There I met a Giani Ji who wrote me the whole poem of Bhagat Surdas;

“Cwf mn hir ibmuKn ko sMg”
_Chaad mun Har bemukhan ko sung._​ 

                                                                    It means_, “O ‘my mind, get rid of the company of non-believers of God.”_

I just can't put my hands on it. Guru Arjan took only that line and responds to it. It is not one line as a complete poem of his.

The riddle I posted was delt by Professor Pashara Singh, being a friend of mine did not coldlt dissect it;

*GURU ARJAN'S RAMAKALI HYMN (Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 927)*

*Dr. Pashaura Singh*

One of the main issues that have drawn scholarly attention in Kartarpur-Banno debate is related to a hymn by Guru Arjan in Ramkali mode. A single couplet stands recorded in the version of the Adi Granth after chhant 4, before Guru Composition on the six seasons (ਰੁਤੀ) of the Indian calendar. 1n order to address the incomplete nature of this hymn, W.H. McLeod argues that there should apparently be a complete hymn in section assigned to the longer chhant compositions. The organization of hymns in this section indicates that the couplet must be either the first two lines of a chhant, or a Sloke introducing a chhanD. The academic issue raised by McLeod drew a great many polemic responses from Sikh scholars, which generated more heat than light on the Kartarpur-Banno debate.124
It is important to note that only two lines of this hymn are to note that two lines of this hymn are to be found in the manuscripts of both the Kartarpur and the Lahore traditions.125 Even in the Kanpur manuscript (1642), which claimed to be the first copy of the Adi Bir prepared by Bhai Banno (and hence popularly known as Banno Bir), the additional twenty two lines of the hymn were added later in a smaller hand.126

One can argue that the scribe had originally written a single couplet since the remainder of the hymn was not available at that time. When ¬additional portion became available, he completed the hymn in Banno version of the Adi Granth. This explanation may be supported by the scribal practice of writing the opening verse first completing the text later. But this simple explanation does not solve the textual puzzle. I shall argue that the completion of this hymn page 115 was intentionally done at a time when the volume was converted into the Banno text.

In order to understand the problem of the Banno recension, we must examine Guru Arjan's Ramkali hymn in its original context. In folio 703/1 of the Kartarpur' manuscript the two lines read as follows:
Raga Ramkali Mahala 5

ਰਣ ਝੁੰਝਨੜਾ ਗਾਉ ਸਖੀ ਹਰਿ ਏਕੁ ਧਿਆਵਹੁ ॥ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਤੁਮ ਸੇਵਿ ਸਖੀ ਮਨਿ ਚਿੰਦਿਅੜਾ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਵਹੁ ॥ 

_Raṇ jẖunjẖnaṛā gā&shy;o sakẖī har ėk ḏẖi&shy;āvahu. Saṯgur ṯum sėv sakẖī man cẖinḏi&shy;aṛā fal pāvhu._ 

Sing the melodious harmonies, O my companions, and meditate on the One Lord. Serve your True Guru, O my companions, and you shall obtain the fruits of your mind's desires. 

Sing the trilling tunes in the [dance]-field, my sister-friends, by meditating on the one lord. By serving the true Guru, my sister-friends, accomplish your heart's desires.

The opening words, ran jẖunjẖnaṛā (trilling tunes [sung in the dance]-field), indicate a wedding scene at which Punjabi girls were accustomed to gather together in a circle to sing wedding songs. Guru Arjan may have uttered these aphoristic sayings on the happy occasion of a marriage, intending that these be developed into a complete hymn later. As the opportunity for its completion never came, only two lines, followed by a blank space, stand recorded in the Kartarpur manuscript. Because there is no mention of this hymn in the index of this volume, and because the entry of the couplet (though made by the same scribe) was done with a different pen, we may conclude that the couplet was introduced some time after the compilation of the Adi Granth in 1604 and before Guru Arjan's death in 1606. This is also confirmed by the fact that this couplet (or complete hymn) is not to be found in an earlier Sikh scriptural tradition, popularly known as MS 1245 preserved at the Guru Nanak Dev University library. 127.

The complete hymn, along with the additional lines, is to be found in the Banno version of the Adi Granth. It reads as follows:
Page 116,

The lord Says Nanak, the journey [of life] has borne fruit through contemplation of the person of the true Guru. (1) By collecting the nectar like food the whole family was called [into the Guru's presence) - Let immortal divine Name be distributed (ਵੰਡਿਆਹੁ) to all so that every one is completely satisfied. The true Guru made the distribution [of the divine name] to everyone while sitting [on the throne] and all were blessed with the gift of love. Everyone received a share (ਵੰਡਿ) according to his destiny, and no one went empty-handed [from the house of the Guru]. The whole Sikh Sangat gathered together [in the Guru's presence] and each person was absorbed in great joy. Says Nanak, 'by seeking the lord's protection I have attained all comforts: (2) all the rites (riti) were performed by meditating deeply on the lord. The tonsure ceremony (bhaddanu unet) was conducted by repeating the divine knowledge of the Guru. Repeating the Guru’s knowledge provided all comforts, and thus the boy was sent to school. The child received a perfect education by obeying the lord in his heart. All were feasted (Uevanavaru) lavishly at the time of the name-giving ceremony [of the child], and no one went away empty-handed. Nanak the humble servant of God pleads: 'My lord is [my] friend at death (3). The saintly people who gathered together [in the Guru's presence] sum that the boy should now be betrothed (mangeva) by good fortune. Those of rectitude and wisdom were found as parents of the bride. Let the gift of Amrit (divine name) be distributed among all. The mystical state of union with the immortal name was attained when the Guru established the divine knowledge (in the man) and removed all kinds of suffering. The auspicious moment, which was written [by destiny] from the very beginning.. (And the marriage was affirmed by the parents of the bride. The lord arranged the marriage-party in such a way that all kinds of sages, devotees and godly men participated in it. Says Nanak, the task of [marriage] was accomplished and the unstruck music sounded forth. (4) 128

Evidently, the hymn describes the rituals in the life-cycle of individual in Punjabi society in the seventeenth century which included the birth of a male child, the name-giving ceremony, and the puberty rite, the first admission in a school, the betrothal rite and the marriage ceremony. A further symbolic meaning gets attached to these rituals since they are used as occasions for the distribution of the gift of Amrit (the divine name) among the devotees of the Guru.
The real issue, however, is related to the authorship of the Banno hymn. Did Guru Arjan compose the Ramkali hymn? If he did do so, who else could have been responsible for completing hymn, and why? To find answers to these questions, we must examine117 the poetic style of this hymn and other linguistic features with reference to other works of Guru Arjan. This method of enquiry reveals the following significant points.

The fourth line in the first stanza (sat guru sachai bheji dia char jivan vaddu pu_nnia, the true Guru has sent the long-lived child to enjoy great fortune) alludes to the opening lines of Guru Arjan's hymn in Asa raga, which he composed to celebrate the birth of his only child, Har Gobind, the sixth Guru: The true Guru has sent the child. The long lived child has been born by destiny (sat guru sachai dia bheji// chir jivan upajia sanjogi).129 This allusion has been largely responsible for the assumption that the Banno hymn concerns the life-cycle rituals relating to Guru HarGobind's early life. For instance, G.B. Singh's manuscript note on the copy of a Banno recension in the India Office Library reads: 'the hymn (chhant) about the early life of the sixth Guru is given complete[ly] (24 lines); and not only The first two lines. 130 It is important to note, however, that apart from this indirect association, there is no explicit reference to the sixth Guru in the text itself. Rather, the author of the Banno hymn employs the metaphor of a unique son (anup balak) as a poetic convention to describe the life-cycle rituals of Punjabi society in general. 131
Secondly, there are certain linguistic expressions in the hymn which cannot be the work of Guru Arjan. For instance, for him to have used the phrase satgur bahi kai vand kini (the true Guru made the distribution while sitting) for he is totally alien to the humble nature of Guru Arjan.132 He never directly refers to himself as the true Guru in his compositions. The hymn was definitely composed by a scribe who was highly motivated by the idea of completing the incomplete text in the name of the Guru. A recent example of a somewhat similar sort may be seen in Jodh Singh's addition of his own interpretation to his description of the Kartarpur Bir to solve the textual problem of this hymn. His note on the description of folio 703/1 reads as follows: 

118 Raga Ramkali Mahala 5 Salok
ran jhunjjhanara gau sakhi hari ekdhiavahu// satgur turn sev salmi: chindiara phalu pavahu//l//133

The word Sloke in the title and the numeral 1 at the end of the couplet do not occur in the original text of the Kartarpur volume. This is an example of making an incomplete text look like a complete text. Further, there are other examples in the Adi Granth where gurus employ single-line aphoristic sayings instead of Slokes. These single lines may be seen in the section assigned to Gurus' shaloks, surplus to the vars. 134

Thirdly, the most significant point is that Guru Arjan never employed such words as vand (distribution) or vandiahu (distribute!) anywhere in his compositions in the Adi Granth. These words did not form part of his usual lexicon. This fact alone makes improbable his authorship of the additional material of the hymn. Similarly, other words such as riti (rites), bhaddanu unetu (the tonsure rite), jevanavaru (the ritual feast associated with the sacred thread ceremony), namukaran (the name-giving ceremony) and mangeva ('the betrothal rite') only appear in the Banno version the Adi Granth in this disputed hymn. 136 Thus they were intentionally employed to give legitimacy to Brahmincal rituals in Sikh society, which were otherwise strongly repudiated by the Sikh Gurus, particularly by Guru Arjan himself. On a number of occasions Guru Nanak criticized the sacred thread (Uaneu), and other rituals associated with death (like pind, patal, kina, and diva) .137 Guru Arjan referred to the celebration of Guru Hargobind's birth by the sangat in form of the singing of gurbani, particularly the Ramakali Anandu of Page119, Guru Amar Das (gurbani sakhi anandu gavai).138 evidently this later tradition was the one in vogue among Sikhs at that time.

Fourthly, it is the fifth Guru who, like Guru Nanak, criticizes both Hindu and Muslim beliefs, practices and texts. In 0ne of his comments on Kabir's hymns, he explicitly says: 'We are neither Hindus, nor Musalman”. He further states that he has settled the difference between Hindu and Muslim (as Kabir did), not by working out some kind of synthesis of the two, nor by keeping the observances of both, such as fasts, pilgrimage, prayers and worship, but by cultivating the remembrance of Akal Purkh within the heart. Although there is no direct reference to life-cycle rituals as such, it is implied in the general category of Hindu practices. 140 One can then raise the question as to how Guru Arjan could have been the author of such a hymn, which sanctifies Hindu rituals, when he himself was a strong critic of them. It is much more likely that the real the author of the extra material in the Ramkali hymn was a person who was under a strong Brahmincal influence. In this context Piar Singh has suggested that either a Bhatt (bard) or a Brahmin family priest) composed this hymn on the occasion of the marriage to receive jajamani (gift or stipend) from his parents. This hymn, he argues, became current under the signatures of Nanak and was then incorporated into the Banno version of Adi Granth. Gurinder Mann, on the other hand, unconvincingly uses the argument of signatures to prove Guru Arjan’s authorship of this hymn. 142 Two signatures binvanti nanak (Nanak begs) and the janu kahai nanak (Nanak the servant says) that appear in this hymn, also appear in certain hymns of Guru Arjan. But this sole convention cannot be used to attribute the hymn to the fifth Guru. It seems likely that anybody (a pundit or a Bhatt) could have picked up such expressions and composed the hymn in the name of Guru Arjan.

Fifthly, the poetic style of the hymn is flattering and plodding, unlike what we encounter in the authentic Bani of Guru Arjan. In the first two lines following the original couplet, for instance, one Page 120 can easily sense how the author is at pains to create a tortured rhyme Uammia/punnia), and similar is the case with the last two lines of the hymn (sura/tUra). The use of the clumsy phrase charjivan in contrast to Guru Arjan's chir jivan is another indication that the author of the additional part was not a good poet. More importantly it is lacking in the structural unity that is usually achieved by Guru Arjan in his hymns. The overall tone of reading in the original scarcely matches the rhythmic beauty of Guru Arjan's poetic style.

Finally, the theory of the origin of the Banno recension (that I have discussed in detail in my doctoral work143) needs to be further qualified in view of the above analysis. The issue of Brahmincal influence must be considered in the union of Hindali, Udasi and Bhatra interests. We shall return to this issue in Chapter Seven. This Banno interest group, it seems, had a hidden agenda to arrest the process of crystallization of the Sikh tradition. Whereas the elite group of the Panth had developed a strong sense of distinctive identity, a large body of believers was still following Brahmincal traditions. 144 The Banno group had started to exert its influence within the Panth in the area of Khara Mangat in Gujrat district, while the main centre of Sikh activities under Guru Har Gobind had already shifted to Kiratpur. Even the Amritsar area was under the control of Minas, Prithichand's descendants, and their followers. This was a time when apocryphal literature was proliferating under Brahmincal influence. This is evident from a manuscript containing the text Sukhamani Sahansarnama written by Miharban's successor under the symbol of mahalu 8 in 1646 (sambat 1703 manghar sudi 1 ).145 This composition is based on the model of Guru Arjan's Sukhamani and praises th!} Vaishnava avatars and other figures from Hindu mythology. It clearly indicates that the process of Hinduization of Sikh tradition had already begun. It was during this period that the Banno Bir was copied from the original volume in 1642, although the additional material was interpolated into it some time later. This was an intentional tampering with the Adi Granth text, which was done to legitimize the Hindu life-cycle rituals in the Sikh community by putting words into the mouth of Guru Arjan.146

Page 121 In the light of the textual analysis of the Ramkali hymn examines W.H. McLeod’s views on the Kartarpur-Banno debate. The following excerpts from his article may prove useful in our analysis:

The nature of these points as recorded in the Banno version suggests an obvious reason for their deletion from the Kartarpur manuscript. They incorporate concepts which would be unacceptable in the light of later Khalsa ideals. This particularly applies to a Ramkali hymn attributed to Guru Arjan which, in its Banno form, refers to the shaving of child Hargobind's head....

If the additional portions supplied by Banno version correspond to deletions in the Kartarpur manuscript there could conceivably be justification for concluding that Banno represents an earlier recension than Kartarpur.

Let it not be supposed that at this stage I am arguing this case as one which I am personally prepared to affirm. This I am certainly not prepared to do....
There is thus no suggestion that the Kartarpur claims are on the brink of refutation. The point which I am endeavouring to make is simply that we need a sustained campaign of textual analysis if we are to establish a sure and certain text.147

Here McLeod argues that the Khalsa ideals could have provided' motive for the deletion (though upon close examination we now know that there is no actual deletion) of the additional portions of the Ramkali hymn in the Kartarpur manuscript. I have personally examined folio 703/1 of the Kartarpur manuscript and can affirm that while there is a blank space of more than two folios after the opening verse of the Ramkali hymn, there is no evidence of any erasure or any other kind of deletion. If there were such a deletion, it would support the claim that the Banno text may actually represent an earlier recension than the Kartarpur text.
Thus McLeod’s hypothesis is a clear case of retrospective interpretation which cannot be convincingly applied to explain seventeenth-century Sikh situation. The question of later deletion in this instance cannot be taken seriously since there are a number of seventeenth-century manuscripts of the Adi Granth that do not contain the extra material of the Banno version. Also, the assumption Page 122 that the hymn is somehow related to the puberty rites of Guru Har Gobind cannot be sustained. It should be emphasized here, however, that McLeod suspends his final judgement on the Kartarpur Banno issue and, instead, urges that there be a sustained campaign of textual analysis to establish a sure and certain text. Recently, however, McLeod has revised his position on the issue of Guru Arjan's Ramkali hymn. 148

In concluding the argument of this section it may be stated that the Ramkali hymn, as found in the Kartarpur manuscript, never consisted of more than two aphoristic sayings, which may have been uttered by Guru Arjan on the occasion of a marriage. These sayings, which stand recorded in the Kartarpur volume, were perhaps intended to be developed into a complete hymn later. There is another such instance provided by Var Basant in the Adi Granth, which, unlike other Vaars of the Gurus, has only three stanzas.149 According to tradition, when Guru Arjan had just completed three stanzas of this Var, he was informed by a Sikh that langar ('communal meal') was ready. He left the work unfinished and joined the congregation for meals. This incomplete composition was recorded in the Kartarpur manuscript much later. Unfortunately Guru Arjan was executed by the Mughal authorities in 1606, before he could complete these compositions. It is my contention that it was the Banno group that completed the Ramkali hymn in their version of the Adi Granth in order to legitimize the Brahmincal life-cycle rituals in the Sikh community. This is my answer to the, academic question raised in the Kartarpur-Banno debate that has been going on for the last two decades.

We can discuss it later.

Virinder


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## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2009)

This article is fascinating and gets bookmarked to keep and re-read for certain. Thank you very much.


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 30, 2009)

Waheguru created His own Guru-form - the "Shabad Guru". Only Waheguru is capable of having someone meet Him or reach Him. In order to accomplish this huge task He formed His own Guru-form. Waheguru is jyot saroop, which means has the form of light. A light brighter than a million suns. Gurbani is also part of that. Like the sea and waves - both are water, yet both have different functions and forms. Waheguru is the ocean, and the Satguru (the True Guru) is the wave, that washes upon our souls, and gently pulls us back towards the sea (Waheguru). In 1469, the Invisible/Unmanifest (Nirgun) form of Waheguru manifested His attributes to the Guru-form which was Guru Nanak Dev jee. Through Guru Nanak Dev jee's coming each and every person had a chance to communicate with the Creator and acting upon the revealed message could achieve liberation whilst alive (jeevan-muktee), whereas in the past only the rare few Bhagats who practiced extreme efforts on meditating upon the Creator achieved union with Waheguru.








Aad Granth Sahib (also known as 'Pothi Sahib')The Fifth Nanak, Guru Arjan Dev jee, accumulated the Shabad revelation from first 5 Gurus, 15 Bhagats and 11 Bhatts and 3 Sikhs, and recorded it into the physical Word in the form of 'Aad Granth Sahib jee' (also referred to as 'Pothi Sahib'), which was earlier form of Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee. In 1604 the Aad Granth Sahib jee was installed on a high pedestal within Sri Darbaar Sahib, and Guru Arjan Dev jee from then on sat in the Sangat. Guru Arjan Dev jee showed so much respect to the Shabad-Guru that he would sleep on the floor and instead the Aad Granth Sahib jee would be placed to rest on the bed.





Aad Granth Sahib jee & Dheer MalPothi Sahib (known today as the Kartarpur Bir) was kept by the Sixth Nanak, Guru Hagobind Sahib jee in his house. From here it was stolen by his grandson called Dheer Mal, who intended to use it to further his claims on the succession of the Guruship. Some 30 years later the Sikhs of the Ninth Nanak, Guru Tegh Bahadur jee forcibly recovered it, but were instructed by Guru Sahib to return it. But as the Sikhs were far from the town, they placed it in the shallow river bed of the Satluj River. From here Dheer Mal recovered it, miraculously it was undamaged The Bir was taken by Dheer Mal and his family to where they lived in Kartarpur, thus the name Kartapur Bir ('Bir' meaning 'Volume').Kartarpur Bir 





During Guru Gobind Singh Sahib jee's Guru-ship, Baba Deep Singh along with 24 other Singhs went to Dheer Mal (the grandson of the Sixth Guru) to ask him to return the Kartarpur Bir (the original Aad Granth Sahib jee that Guru Arjan Sahib jee compiled) that he had forcibly taken during the time of Guru Hargobind Sahib jee. Dheer Mal refused and replied, "If your Guru is the same 'Roop' (form) as the first and fifth Guru Sahibs, then why doesn't he fashion Gurbaani from memory?"Damdami Bir
Guru Gobind Singh Sahib jee stayed Talwandi Sabo (known as Sri Damdama Sahib today) for 9 months and 9 days in 1706 and dictated the entire Aad Granth Sahib jee with the addition of Guru Teg Bahadar jee's revealed Bani (sacred hymns), whilst Bhai Mani Singh jee undertook the task of scribing under Guru Sahib's supervision. Baba Deep Singh jee did seva of preparing ink and providing the resources for scribing. Undoubtedly, Guru Sahib got rid of certain unauthorised writings which had crept into some pirated copies and gave the Granth (Scripture) it's final form. As this Bir (Volume) was compiled by Guru Sahib at Sri Damdama Sahib, in Southern Panjab, this final form of the Granth Sahib jee became known as the 'Damdami Bir'.




Resting Guru-ship in the Guru Granth-Guru PanthThis Bir was then taken to Sri Hazoor Sahib, NandeR, in 1708 by Guru Gobind Singh jee. On 20th October, a day before Guru Gobind Singh jee physically passed away, he asked Bhai Daya Singh jee to bring Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee and do Parkaash (ceremonial opening). Guru jee placed a cocunut and 5 coins in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee and bowed his head before the Shabad Guru and announced that from now on the eternal Guru will be Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee. Guru jee told the Sangat: “With the directive of the Almighty, initiated is the Panth. All the Sikhs are decreed to acknowledge Granth as Guru. Believing in Khalsa, epitomises the Guru as corporeal. Sikhs desirous to achieve me, (may) search in them.”

Prince George Sikh Youth: History of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 30, 2009)

Singh said:


> Waheguru created His own Guru-form - the "Shabad Guru". Only Waheguru is capable of having someone meet Him or reach Him. In order to accomplish this huge task He formed His own Guru-form. Waheguru is jyot saroop, which means has the form of light. A light brighter than a million suns. Gurbani is also part of that. Like the sea and waves - both are water, yet both have different functions and forms. Waheguru is the ocean, and the Satguru (the True Guru) is the wave, that washes upon our souls, and gently pulls us back towards the sea (Waheguru). In 1469, the Invisible/Unmanifest (Nirgun) form of Waheguru manifested His attributes to the Guru-form which was Guru Nanak Dev jee. Through Guru Nanak Dev jee's coming each and every person had a chance to communicate with the Creator and acting upon the revealed message could achieve liberation whilst alive (jeevan-muktee), whereas in the past only the rare few Bhagats who practiced extreme efforts on meditating upon the Creator achieved union with Waheguru.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Who is the author of the above?
Is there any bibliography about the above?

Can you please provide the above information?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 30, 2009)

*Enjoy this video about Mcleod*

McLeod and His Follower's Attack on Sikhism


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 30, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 
The link is there Tejwant, all you have to do is click it.


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 30, 2009)

Singh said:


> The link is there Tejwant, all you have to do is click it.


 
Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Giving the benefit of the doubt is also part of Sikhi, jumping to conclusions without thinking is not. Sikhi is all about Vichaar and without thinking one can neither understand nor absorb what our Gurus tell us through SGGS.

I did clicked the link. I could not find the author nor any bibliography there. 

What I found was the following  note regarding  the above   write up  you copied and  pasted from the site:

Courtesy of Manvir Singh Khalsa
manvirsingh.blogspot.com

I went to the above blog and could not find anything either.

That is the only reason I asked for your help.

Hoping to get the answers for my previous post.

Tejwant Singh


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 30, 2009)

Dear Singh Ji,

Have you ever read a page of AGGS by your self or you are copying and pasting some artists paintings? There were no cameras in 1699. Send me an article written by your self or stop this.

Thanks

Virinder


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 30, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Singh Ji,
> 
> Have you ever read a page of AGGS by your self or you are copying and pasting some artists paintings? There were no cameras in 1699. Send me an article written by your self or stop this.
> 
> ...


 
yes I have read a ang sung of Gurbani, infact I have read more than that.  Also there is no need to get person here, Dr. Virinder Singh Grewal, I will present the facts as they are and if these facts include you in them then so be it, because this is why we are here to present facts of Truth.

Thanks 
Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 31, 2009)

Dear All,
My humble opinion on these Abstracts...and  personal experiences !!

1. At first glance and superficial reading...it does look as if the author is advocating Abandoning the 5 Kakaars...anti kesh and all that....BUT is that really the case? Maybe and maybe not..ONLy the author and Akal Purakh knows whats in his heart...BUT I managed to CONVINCE some Youths who had cut hair, saw absolutley no need for the Kirpan...and the other 5 kakaars as well...THROUGH THE USE OF THESE SAME ABSTRACTS.

I had in my posession various Tracts and pamphlets published in FAVOUR of HAIR/KESH..arguing on variosu aspects like Kesh is good for health..Vitamin D..scientific facts...and finally that Kesh Kakaars are a Godlen Gift from our Guru Ji..etc etc. These people were not convinced.
What did the trick ..so to speak....these Abstracts !!
I applied what is called REVERSE ENGINEERING....and the Gurbani quoted in these Abstracts actually solved the dilemma of choice facing these wayward youths..and..NOW these seven youths are proud 5 kakaree KHALSAS..

The Choice is... INSIDE KHALSA first or OUTSIDE KHALSA first. Many of us overzealously push for the OUTSIDE SROOP First...Take Khandeh dee Pahul FIRST..and then "talk"...but then first of all we TERRIFY them by saying..This will break your Amrit..that will break Amrit..you cannot do this..you cant do THAT....so many black and white RULES....and the poor fellow says..OK..I get it..Amrit is damn hard..and I am NOT READY...and I can bet he/she will never be READY.

Guur Nanak ji stressed on the INSIDE....and the other Gurus followed suit for the next 200 years or so...and then FINALLY Guur Gobind Singh Ji saw the Khalsa READY for the OUTER SROOP...and made the Amrit mandatory to the KHALSA who are READY. Nearly 20,000 at Anandpur Sahib in 1699 were READY..and the rest..60,000 were NOT READY. But the important thing is Guru Ji DIDNT CHASE THOSE AWAY....they remained just as honourably as BEFORE the Amrit Ceremony !!

2. There is a "css"..the clean shaven sikh...and that is a direct result of the PREVIOUS GENERATION..who fell into RITUALISTIC SIKHI....havig Kakars for the "sake" of having them....THOSE only had the OUTER SROOP....the CSS sons dropped the Kesh inspite of their parental objections...

3. What the CSS dont realise is that MOST of those css who call themsleves SIKHS..not only have no "outer Sroop"...they DONT HAVE much SIKHI too..as they DONT know GURMUKHI..Cannot communicate in Punjabi...and their GURU....most of them are also SIKH just because they were BORN to Sikhs..their NEXT Generation are even LESS SIKHS as time goes along....going to Gurdwara and looking for the "Gyani ji" forevery small task...is commonplace for them...just so the "gyani Ji" can handle everything..is fine with them....some one died..quick phone the Gurdwara and ask the Gyani ji..what to do....want to do an "akhand paath"..ask the Gyani lah..he will handle everything..blah blah blah..what SIKHI is THAT ?? Their SIKHI si meet up..chat up..serve good food to the arriving friends..network a bit..and let the Gyanis do the paath/ardass/kirtan..and then take the Baba Ji home...Task Completed.
SO NOW since its common knowledge that these "CSS Sikhs/Kkaree Sikhs"..Dont know "****" about anything..the Gyani Jis are also the SAME TYPES....BLIND leading the BLIND !! Whos to know ?? The Very First thing the Gyani will settle are the "MONEY"....money for this..money for that..BHETA..for paath..ardass..kirtan..whatever extras...settled..paid..done. WHY do you think the DERAS and Babas are FLOURISHING at such PHENOMENAL RATES....like mushrooms after a shower !! Hundreds of thousands of CSS....and equal numbers of "Banna wearing 5 kakaree SIkhs" THRONG these DERAS !! WHAT do the Kirpan wearing Dastardharee Sikhs want from the babas ?? Clearly they are NOT "true Sikhs" INSIDE..OR they wont be there at all !!!!They are BHEKHEE SIKHS.... The KHOT is there..among the CSS and also among the Banna Sikhs.....its up to US..as SIKHS to search for the CURE...The CURE is in GURBANI....the CSS may be searching GURBANI to "justify" his CSS state...while the Amrtidharee Sikh will be doign the Same to "justify" his side....at least BOTH are READING and Vichaaring GURBANI...THATS GOOD !!!! GURBANI is Divine Message..i beleive GURBANI has the Power to CURE the "SICK".....no matter of the sickness is "inside" or "outside"...
4. Many CSS sikhs are NOT CUTTING the Kesh of their CHILDREN...I am surprised so many times when I see a cute Young Sikh with nice Joorrra/dastaar/patka..and notice hsi daddy is CSS !! This happened  once too many times..so I began to ask around and notice the answers...Always the same answer...I DONT WANT TO CUT MY SONS HAIR....I want HIM to DECIDE HIMSELF.....and IF the Khalsa School/Gurdwara authorites concentrate on imparting the TRUE GURBANI KNOWLEDGE to "HIM".. I beleive He will NEVER CUT his hair !!!and thsi is happening...more frequently...!!!
While those Keshdharee fathers/mothers who are actually "empty inside" and just following the Kesh Tradition due to peer pressure/my dad will scold me..types...often pull their hair out when the teenage son coems home from the barber...they cry and wail...BUT FAIL to realsie its their MISTAKE and FAULT..for not teaching their sons GURBANI/VALUE SYSTEM of GURBANI....but simply insiting on keeping kesh..its good for you son..its my ORDER !!

These are soem of the Khamian..shortcomings among us..that are leading towards decline..we cna arrest this decline and reverse the trends...IF WE sincerely FOLLOW GURBANI in word and deed.

No offense meant or taken..no malice towards anyone.:welcome:


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 31, 2009)

Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

Well said. As usual. The amber glows itself from the within. If it had no glow in it, then it would not be called an amber.

Gurbani is the amber of a Sikh. If it does not make us glow from the within, then we shall remain in the dark no matter how many halogen lamps in the shape of Baana we flash ourselves with.

Thanks to Virinder ji's abstracts, each of us has the chance to discover our own amber within. His insightful abstracts are like caneries in the coal mines.

Tejwant Singh


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## Harpreet_Singh_ (Mar 31, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> PS:- Do you remember a Sikh candidate from Illinois if I am not mistaken who ran as a Senator from the GOP in the primaries many years ago and lost? I think he was a doctor.


 I don't think he was a doctor. He was a businessman who did really well - like a millionare. He wore a turban and had a beard.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 31, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Gyani ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Teji Ji,
Gurfateh.

Your use of the word *amber*..brought to mind a short poem by Mohan Singh.

Its about the KOLA...the Burning Amber. He says..the KOLA turned BLACK.. when it was separated from its "fire"....no matter how many washings..in soap and milk..and etc etc..the BLACKNESS never went away...
UNTIL it was REUNITED with the FIRE...and lo and behold..in an instant the Jet Black KOLA..began to GLOW..in Fiery RED.

I cant recall the exact words...off hand..but the above is the general meaning...
We are like the Black KOLAS...when we are away from GURBANI....and only GLOW in full GLORY..wehn we are reunited with it...
Thanks for a beautiful message...


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## vsgrewal48895 (Mar 31, 2009)

Dear All.

Going off the track and spinning the question does not help. % k's may be the first step in detering the lower spirit but does not help in spirituality in developing virtues, which are developed by individual effort and deeds. 5 K's per se has no spiritual value except being political and a sourse of Identity. I am a student of Spirituality and not of materialism. These are a show of external piety and are left behind just like the holy thread of the Brahmin falls and burnt after death. It is by self dcipline that one progresses further.

*Sanjam-(*ਸੰਜਮੁ/ ਸੰਜਮ) meaning ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਵਲੋਂ ਪਰਹੇਜ਼, ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਵਲੋਂ ਰੋਕਣ ਦਾ ਉਪਰਾਲਾ/ਵਿਧੀ/ ਆਹਰ/ਰਹਿਤ/ਪ੍ਰਹੇਜ਼, ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਵੱਸ ਕਰਨ ਦੇ ਸਾਧਨ/ਜਤਨ/ਤਪੱਸਿਆ, ਇੰਦਰਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਵਲੋਂ ਰੋਕਣ ਦੇ ਯਤਨ, ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਵਲੋਂ ਰੋਕਣ ਦੇ ਜਤਨ। (ਟਿਕੇ ਰਹਿਣ ਦੀ) ਜੁਗਤਿ, ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਪ੍ਰਣ/ਉਪਰਾਲਾ/ਵਿਧੀ/ ਆਹਰ/ਰਹਿਤ/ਪ੍ਰਹੇਜ਼, ਰਹਿਤ-ਰਹਿਣੀ, ਬੰਦਸ਼, ਪਾਬੰਦੀ, ਪਰਹੇਜ਼ -Brevity, restraint, discipline, soberness, forbearance, abstinence, austerity. This word comes many times in AGGS in one form or the other advising self discipline in all forms and Guru Arjan in Raag Bilawal refers to it as question and answer;

Q. ਕਿਤੁ ਬਿਧੀਐ ਕਿਤੁ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ਕਹੁ ਸੁਰਜਨ ਕਿਤੁ ਜੁਗਤੀ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥ 

_Kiṯ biḏẖīai kiṯ sanjam pāīai. Kaho surjan kiṯ jugṯī ḏẖiāīai._ 

In what way, and by what discipline, is God obtained? Tell me, O good man, by what means can we meditate on Akal Purkh? 

A.ਜੋ ਮਾਨੁਖੁ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਓਹੁ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਲਈ ਲਈ ਫੁਨਿ ਜਾਈਐ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਨਿ ਸਰਣਿ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਮੋਹਿ ਟੇਕ ਤੇਰੋ ਇਕ ਨਾਈਐ ॥

_Jo mānukẖ mānukẖ kī sėvā oh ṯis kī laī laī fun jāīai. Nānak saran saraṇ sukẖ sāgar mohi tėk ṯėro ik nāīai._

If one human being serves another human being, the one served stands by him. Nanak seeks Your Sanctuary and Protection, O Lord, ocean of peace; He takes the Support of Your Name alone. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 822

ਰਸਨਾ ਉਚਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਸ੍ਰਵਣੀ ਸੁਣੈ ਸੋ ਉਧਰੈ ਮਿਤਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਲਿਖਹਿ ਲਾਇ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਸੇ ਹਸਤ ਪਵਿਤਾ ॥ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਮਜਨਾ ਸਭਿ ਪੁੰਨ ਤਿਨਿ ਕਿਤਾ ॥ਸੰਸਾਰ ਸਾਗਰ ਤੇ ਉਧਰੇ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਗੜੁ ਜਿਤਾ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਲੜਿ ਲਾਇ ਉਧਾਰਿਅਨੁ ਦਯੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਅਮਿਤਾ ॥

_Rasnaa Uchrai Har Sarvanee Sunai So UDhrai Mitaa, Har Jas Likheh Laa-ay Bhaavnee Say Hasat Pavitaa. Athsath Tirath Majnaa Sabh Punn Tin Kitaa, Sansaar Saagar Tay UDhray Bikhi-aa Garh Jitaa, Nanak Larh Laa-ay UDhaari-an Da-yu Sayv Amitaa._

Those who chant the God's Name with their tongues and hear it with their ears are saved, O my friend. Those hands which lovingly write the Praises of the God are pure. It is like performing all sorts of virtuous deeds, and bathing at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage. They cross over the world-ocean, and conquer the fortress of corruption. O Nanak, serve the Infinite God; grasp the hem of Its robe, and It will save you. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 322

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਲੋਰੈ ॥ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਇਹ ਹਉਮੈ ਛੋਰੈ ॥

_Jė ko apunī sobẖā lorai. Sāḏẖsang ih haumai cẖẖorai._

If you long for honor for yourself, then renounce your ego in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.

ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਜੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਨੀਚਾ ॥ਸੋਊ ਗਨੀਐ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਊਚਾ ॥

_Āpas kao jo jāṇai nīcẖā. Soū ganīai sabẖ ṯė ūcẖā_.

One, who sees himself as lowly, shall be accounted as the highest of all. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 266

ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੇ ਕਿਨੇਹਿਆ ॥ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਸਾਂਈ ਜੇਹਿਆ ॥

_Jinĥā na visrai nām sė kinėhiā. Bẖėḏ na jāṇhu mūl sāŉī jėhiā._

What are they like - those who do not forget the Naam, the Name of the God? Know that there is absolutely no difference; they are exactly like the God. -----Guru Arjan. Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 397-17

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥ਸਰੰਜਾਮਿ ਲਾਗੁ ਭਵਜਲ ਤਰਨ ਕੈ ॥ਜਨਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਾਤ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ॥ ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਸੇਵਾ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਮ ਨੀਚ ਕਰੰਮਾ ॥ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਕੀ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਮਾ ॥

_Bẖa¬ī parāpaṯ mānukẖ ḏėhurī¬ā. Gobinḏ milaṇ kī ih ṯėrī barī¬ā. Avar kāj ṯėrai kiṯai na kām. Mil sāḏẖsangaṯ bẖaj kėval nām. Saraŉjām lāg bẖavjal ṯaran kai. Janam baritha jāṯ rang mā¬i¬ā kai. Jap ṯap sanjam ḏẖaram na kamā¬i¬ā. Sėvā sāḏẖ na jāni¬ā har rā¬i¬ā. Kaho Nānak ham nīcẖ karammā. Saraṇ parė kī rākẖo sarmā._

I have not practiced meditation, self-discipline, self-restraint or righteous living. I have not served the Holy; I have not acknowledged the Lord, my King. Says Nanak, my actions are contemptible! O Lord, I seek Your Sanctuary; please, preserve my honor! You have been blessed with this human body. This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe. Other efforts are of no use to you. Joining the Sadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, vibrate and meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Lord. Make the effort, and cross over the terrifying world ocean. This human life is passing away in vain, in the love of Maya. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 12 & 378

This ends my debate with out answering my first question on the sabd and spinning it. Thanks all for participating.

Cordially,
Virinder


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 1, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear All. Going off the track and spinning the question does not help. % k's may be the first step in detering the lower spirit but does not help in spirituality in developing virtues, which are developed by individual effort and deeds. 5 K's per se has no spiritual value except being political and a sourse of Identity.


 
As this is your opinion and it stands on no ground and has no truth to it.



> I am a student of Spirituality and not of materialism.


 
The 5 ks which you refer to as materialism, are very much Spiritually helpful.



> These are a show of external piety and are left behind just like the holy thread of the Brahmin falls and burnt after death. It is by self dcipline that one progresses further.


 
Once again your opinion, but this poorly contructed statement has no ground and breaks apart, once analyzed with just glass.




> Q. ਕਿਤੁ ਬਿਧੀਐ ਕਿਤੁ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ਕਹੁ ਸੁਰਜਨ ਕਿਤੁ ਜੁਗਤੀ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥
> 
> _Kiṯ biḏẖīai kiṯ sanjam pāīai. Kaho surjan kiṯ jugṯī ḏẖiāīai._
> 
> ...


 
The reason why you presented this shabad, only you would know. This shabad does not say the 5 ks don't help in spirituality in developing virtues. Reading this above shabad one can't help notice this tuk _*If one human being serves another human being, the one served stands by him. *_

Isn't this the best description of the Khalsa Panth. Who serves humanity and who protects humanity. Its the Khalsa Panth that serves another and protects another. The 5 ks are very much apart of the Khalsa Panth discipline and is the discipline of the Tenth Nanak.



> ਰਸਨਾ ਉਚਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਸ੍ਰਵਣੀ ਸੁਣੈ ਸੋ ਉਧਰੈ ਮਿਤਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਲਿਖਹਿ ਲਾਇ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਸੇ ਹਸਤ ਪਵਿਤਾ ॥ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਮਜਨਾ ਸਭਿ ਪੁੰਨ ਤਿਨਿ ਕਿਤਾ ॥ਸੰਸਾਰ ਸਾਗਰ ਤੇ ਉਧਰੇ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਗੜੁ ਜਿਤਾ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਲੜਿ ਲਾਇ ਉਧਾਰਿਅਨੁ ਦਯੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਅਮਿਤਾ ॥
> 
> _Rasnaa Uchrai Har Sarvanee Sunai So UDhrai Mitaa, Har Jas Likheh Laa-ay Bhaavnee Say Hasat Pavitaa. Athsath Tirath Majnaa Sabh Punn Tin Kitaa, Sansaar Saagar Tay UDhray Bikhi-aa Garh Jitaa, Nanak Larh Laa-ay UDhaari-an Da-yu Sayv Amitaa._
> 
> Those who chant the God's Name with their tongues and hear it with their ears are saved, O my friend. Those hands which lovingly write the Praises of the God are pure. It is like performing all sorts of virtuous deeds, and bathing at the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage. They cross over the world-ocean, and conquer the fortress of corruption. O Nanak, serve the Infinite God; grasp the hem of Its robe, and It will save you. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 322


 
Once again this shabad does not speak out agianst the 5 Kakkars, the reason why you presented it, only you know.

Chanting of the Lord's name is a discipline of the Khalsa. 5 Bani are to be chanted by the tongue and heard by the ears in the Amrit Vaylaa. The Khalsa has taken up the Guru's discipline and everyday stays absorbed in the Shabad Guru. The Khalsa serves the Infinite God and has graspped the hem of the Guru by taking Amrit. 



> ਜੇ ਕੋ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਲੋਰੈ ॥ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਇਹ ਹਉਮੈ ਛੋਰੈ ॥
> 
> _Jė ko apunī sobẖā lorai. Sāḏẖsang ih haumai cẖẖorai._
> 
> ...


 
On ang sung 266 the top line you presented: _If you long for honor for yourself, then renounce your ego in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy._

Don't come before the second line of Gurbani that you have presented. The way you have presented these two lines it looks like as the second line comes after the first line you presented, but this is not true. As the second line you presented comes a couple of lines later.

So to address these tuk separately the correct way they still don't say anything against the 5 ks. 



> ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੇ ਕਿਨੇਹਿਆ ॥ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਸਾਂਈ ਜੇਹਿਆ ॥
> 
> _Jinĥā na visrai nām sė kinėhiā. Bẖėḏ na jāṇhu mūl sāŉī jėhiā._
> 
> What are they like - those who do not forget the Naam, the Name of the God? Know that there is absolutely no difference; they are exactly like the God. -----Guru Arjan. Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 397-17


 
Again why you present this shabad only you know. The Khalsa doesn't forget the Naam. Bhai Mani Singh ji a Khalsa and Bhai Taru Singh ji a Khalsa, both wore and kepted the 5 ks and lived the Khalsa discipline.




> ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥ਸਰੰਜਾਮਿ ਲਾਗੁ ਭਵਜਲ ਤਰਨ ਕੈ ॥ਜਨਮੁ ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਾਤ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ॥ ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਸੇਵਾ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਮ ਨੀਚ ਕਰੰਮਾ ॥ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਕੀ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਮਾ ॥
> 
> _Bẖa¬ī parāpaṯ mānukẖ ḏėhurī¬ā. Gobinḏ milaṇ kī ih ṯėrī barī¬ā. Avar kāj ṯėrai kiṯai na kām. Mil sāḏẖsangaṯ bẖaj kėval nām. Saraŉjām lāg bẖavjal ṯaran kai. Janam baritha jāṯ rang mā¬i¬ā kai. Jap ṯap sanjam ḏẖaram na kamā¬i¬ā. Sėvā sāḏẖ na jāni¬ā har rā¬i¬ā. Kaho Nānak ham nīcẖ karammā. Saraṇ parė kī rākẖo sarmā._
> 
> I have not practiced meditation, self-discipline, self-restraint or righteous living. I have not served the Holy; I have not acknowledged the Lord, my King. Says Nanak, my actions are contemptible! O Lord, I seek Your Sanctuary; please, preserve my honor! You have been blessed with this human body. This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe. Other efforts are of no use to you. Joining the Sadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, vibrate and meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Lord. Make the effort, and cross over the terrifying world ocean. This human life is passing away in vain, in the love of Maya. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 12 & 378


 
Lastly, why you present this shabad only you know, but it doesn't speak out against the 5 ks as you have made a statement at the beginning of this post against the 5 ks, which has no merit. None of the above shabads you provide say the 5ks provide no spiritual value. In fact you will not find one shabad that speaks out against the 5 ks because the 5 ks were given to the Khalsa by the Tenth Nanak! 



> This ends my debate with out answering my first question on the sabd and spinning it. Thanks all for participating.
> 
> Cordially,
> Virinder


 
And now the debate just ended


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks Singh Ji.
Virinder


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## tony (Apr 1, 2009)

Dear Singh ji
As you are an ardent supporter of the five Ks could you please tell me what each one is and what they stand for as you see them. I am asking not to start an argument with you nor to ridicule them in any way but to help myself get a better understanding of how they may help me in the future, We can skip the kesh as i believe youve already told me about that, it is the others and how they help one become more spiritual that would help me to understand them better.
Tony


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 1, 2009)

Dear Singh Ji,


IMHO 5 K's could help you in deterring the 5 lower instincts and then you are of your own. These do not confer spirituality per se, you have to work for it with right actions.

ਜੇਹਾ ਰਾਧੇ ਤੇਹਾ ਲੁਣੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਣ ਜਨਮੁ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ॥ਮੁੰਧੇ ਗੁਣ ਦਾਸੀ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ॥ਅਵਗਣ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਸਮਾਈਐ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਪੂਰਾ ਸੋਇ॥

_Jayhaa RaaDhay Tayhaa Lunai Bin Gun Janam Vinaas, MunDhay Gun Daasee Sukh Ho-ay, Avgan Ti-aag Samaa-ee-ai Gurmat Pooraa So-ay._

As you plant, so shall you harvest? Without virtue, this human life passes away in vain. O young bride, be a slave to virtue, and you shall find peace. Renouncing wrongful actions, following the Guru's Teachings, you shall be absorbed into the Perfect One.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Siri, AGGS, Page, 56-13

Just wake up and start working on it.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 2, 2009)

*CA Kirpan Education Bill Passes First Hurdle*​ *Coalition Leads Community in Speaking Out**
*​ 
​ *http://salsa.wiredforchange.com/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=EAsfICK/0s5xkBeh/BzKGJDEDLNzPzTl
*

*Read the News Article in the Los Angeles Times*
(Sacramento, CA) April 2, 2009 - A unanimous vote on Tuesday brings a proposed Kirpan Education Bill one step closer to mandating training for California law enforcement officers. It will now move on to the next step of the legislative process before becoming a law. This good news comes just days before we celebrate the 310th anniversary of Vaisakhi - the day the Sikh community was given our identity, Tuesday's vote marks a significant step towards creating an environment where Sikhs can practice our faith with respect and dignity in California.


 *A Kirpan Education Bill*
The proposed law (AB 504), just passed by the California Assembly's Public Safety Committee, would require training about the kirpan for every law enforcement officer who has the ability to make an arrest in California. The bill states explicitly, "It is the Legislature's goal to promote education and awareness of the carrying of the kirpan by Sikhs in California."     For this bill to become law, it must first be approved by a number of committees. It's debut was before the Assembly Committee on Public Safety, where seven Assembly Members assessed whether this training was necessary. Many of the committee members spoke in glowing support of their Sikh constituents, including Assembly Member Warren Furutani (D-Long Beach), Assembly Member Fiona Ma (D-San Francisco), Assembly Member Nancy Skinner (D-El Sobrante), and Assembly Member Danny D. Gilmore (R-Bakersfield).

 
California sangat members in front of the State Capitol after Tuesday's hearing
 *California's Sikhs Speak Out*
The California Sikh community provided a tremendous amount of support for this bill. Nearly 300 people sent letters to each Assembly Member on the Committee.  In addition, 17 community members of all ages and from all over California came to the meeting to make public comments. We also received dozens of letters of support from Sikh and non-Sikh organizations. This bill could not have passed this first hurdle without the _chardi kala_ (eternal optimism) of our California community. Together, we have planted the seeds for the momentum we need to carry this bill through the California legislative process.
 *Next Steps*
  The bill will now be heard and voted on in the Assembly Appropriations Committee. If passed, it will then move on for a vote by the entire California Assembly. If the majority of the Assembly passes the bill, it will need to go through the same process on the Senate side before becoming a law.
  Over the coming months, the Coalition will work with California's Sikh community to ensure their local members of the State Assembly and Senate support this bill. If you live in California and would like information on how you can persuade your local legislators to support this bill, please contact us at legislative@sikhcoalition.org. 
  *A Note of Thanks*

 The Sikh Coalition would like to thank Assembly Member Furutani for his leadership in introducing this legislation. We are also very grateful by the commitment shown by Assembly Members Ma and Skinner, who have signed on as co-authors of the legislation. The Sikh Coalition would also like to thank Nitasha Kaur Sawhney, the Coalition's local partner in California.
 The following organizations all wrote letters of support for AB 504, which were crucial to Tuesday's victory: The South Asian Bar Association of Northern California, CAIR-California, Asian Americans for Civil Rights & Equality, the International Institute Of Gurmat Studies, Sikh Temple Of Sacramento, UC Berkeley Sikh Students Association, Fremont Gurdwara Sahib, Sikh Temple Of Bakersfield, California Sikh Council, Sikh Research Institute, The Sikh Foundation International, CSU Bakersfield's Department of Sociology/Anthropology, and Jakara Movement. 

As always, the Sikh Coalition urges all Sikhs to practice their faith fearlessly.  If someone tells you to remove your articles of faith, please report the incident.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 3, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Singh Ji, IMHO 5 K's could help you in deterring the 5 lower instincts and then you are of your own. These do not confer spirituality per se, you have to work for it with right actions.


 
To say 5 ks can't promote a righteous action, is not a well thought out statement, that sinks like a rock in water. The 5 kakkars can remind someone of his duty to humanity and to practice unity and equality. The discpline that the 5 kakkar exist in teaches spirituality and these 5 kakkars are very much apart of a Khalsa spirituality guidance and progress. Spirituality very much exist in these 5 ks, its just some are blind too it.



> ਜੇਹਾ ਰਾਧੇ ਤੇਹਾ ਲੁਣੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਣ ਜਨਮੁ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ॥ਮੁੰਧੇ ਗੁਣ ਦਾਸੀ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ॥ਅਵਗਣ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਸਮਾਈਐ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਪੂਰਾ ਸੋਇ॥
> 
> _Jayhaa RaaDhay Tayhaa Lunai Bin Gun Janam Vinaas, MunDhay Gun Daasee Sukh Ho-ay, Avgan Ti-aag Samaa-ee-ai Gurmat Pooraa So-ay._
> 
> ...


 
Exactly this shabad tells us to follow the Guru's teachings. The Khalsa Panth is a teaching of Guru Sahib. Guru Sahib has instructed us to become Khalsa. 

But the reason why you present this shabad only you would know, as it has not said 5 kakkars don't confer spiritualitly or can't promote righteous actions.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 3, 2009)

Dear All,

Thanks all for your comments.

Virinder S. Grewal


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## lalihayer (Apr 3, 2009)

vsgrewal48895 said:


> Dear Singh Ji,
> 
> *My* postings are explicit and clear.
> 
> ...


With so many I's and me's in one para?


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 3, 2009)

Lalihayer Ji,

Thanks for pointing out I and me in one sentence. I am human and no saint and trying my level best to become better but still not successful.

Your thoughtful poniting will lead me in that direction. Please keep on pointing my weaknesses.

Thank you again.

Virinder


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