# Hindu Aarti In Gurdwara



## gs_chana (Sep 5, 2005)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, 

Before I begin, I am writing this article from my own knowledge and if I have written anything wrong or misunderstood anything, please do not hesitate to correct me, I am a Sikh, and I shall learn as a Sikh. 

I would like to ask how many people have seen AARTI being performed at Sri Keshghar Sahib in India. After Rehraas Sahib, AARTI begins at the gurdwara, and to my HORROR, SICKNESS, and Disappointment, the AARTI performed is quiet literally a HINDU ritual. 

A Giani is standing there with a 'thaal' (tray) with burning divas and agarbatis whilst AARTI is being performed. Bare in mind, the AARTI performed is one of the "Sikh Version", i.e. Gurbani. During the end of the AARTI, a bell begins to be rung, then the thaal is circulated around Guru Granth, and at the end, it is given to sangat and they cover the diva with their hand then wipe their hand over their face, JUST THE EXACT SAME WAY AS HINDUS. 

Now I am not being offensive to Hindus, but this act is a wasteful, non meaningful and not related to God in any single way. What is the point in circulating a thaal with Divas around Guruji. We are told to read and understand gurbani, not perform rituals to it, what the hell is the meaning of that, its like doing the same thing to a picture of Guru's, UTTERLY WASTEFUL. 

I do not know how many people who have realised and questioned this, but I do not understand why this has been going on for so long. I would like to know your point of view, and please urge that WE THE YOUTH and Sikh Sangat here start a petition or other action to bring a stop to this. 

WHY ARE WE LETTING GURU NANAK's TEACHINGS GO TO WASTE BY NOT LISTENING TO A WORD GURU JI TAUGHT US. GURUJI TAUGHT US TO FORGET THESE RITUALS and I BLAME PEOPLES IGNORANCE THAT SUCH ACTS HAVE BEEN PERFORMED FOR SO LONG. 

I AM NOT A SAINT, I AM A SINNER OF SINNER, I AM FOOL, I AM NOTHING, and I know nothing, and I urge you forgive me for any mistakes I've made, and please urge something be done about this SOON rather than later before our people just continually get sucked into such RUBBISH. 

Thank you,
WJKWJF
Gurdip Singh Chana


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## Singhstah (Dec 6, 2005)

i completely 100% agree with you.  I mean are they even listening to the bani they are reciting, its telling them to do the eaxact opposite!!


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## gs_chana (Dec 7, 2005)

Singhstah said:
			
		

> i completely 100% agree with you. I mean are they even listening to the bani they are reciting, its telling them to do the eaxact opposite!!


 
I had only noticed now that I wrote Sri Keshghar Sahib, I was meant to say Hazoor Sahib. Regardless, Its very suprising only one person has replied to this post since its been up. Take it no one cares about such acts. 

Gurdip Chana


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 7, 2005)

Gurfateh

Well Hindus also wear turban and Muslims also keep beared so we must not have that.

Rather Arti which was there in hindus before Arti of Sikhs was writtan bvut as Hindu do Arti of thier demi gods so we must not do our Arti of Akal.

So there is no ned for Arti at all perhaps.

Das just wants to add that Arti with or without lamps etc. does not matter till we understand it as not a spell.

It is performed both in Patna Sahib and Hajur Sahib just as it was done before in most of the Gurudwaras in past.

Legend says that it was done with lamps just to put defiance to Moghuals who banned Arti of any type with bells and lamps.

Sound and light with bells and fire insted of loud speaker or other electrical lamps etc were just a way to tell at that time people away that some Arti is being performed and let them come and to moghuls that we Sikhs give it a damn to thier dictats and to hindus that real Arti has to be done for Akal and not thier demi gods.

In fact tray is symbol of sky and lamp as son and moon espcialy for Sudras or lower castes who come to Gurudwaras who cannont see Arti in hindu temple in which they are not allowed but can perform this thing in Gurudwara.

It is symbolic and not to do with intrusion of hindusim which is just 80 years old but Arti is from the time of Aurangjeb when he banned the lamp and bells(Sikhs anyway did not ban azan from Muslim moque for similar purpose).At the time of Gurus before Tenth Master it was not done with Lamps.

das does sing Arti after Rahraas Sahib daily even when on move but does not uses lamp etc. but does not find wrong if some old but obsolate tradtions are still done in some Gurudwaras.

Das would like to raise the further questions that say some people tend to say that idols are sleeping and awaken and gives claoth to idols.

so what about our Santokh,Praksah or Rumala on Guru Granth Sahib Ji.That hindu things are still with us.

Sorry for fast words but only intention was to remove insecurty complex in Sikhs like we have in wahabis.

Das is not against if there in ban on so called hindu Arti in Gurudwaras but we must not take this thing in tradition or history as negtive influence.

Yes it can be used by wrong people like say that for poor people Arti with Lamps and bell can cause finacial burdan etc. But there is no such things in those Gurudwaras at present.

Akal bless.


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## Singhstah (Dec 7, 2005)

vijaydeep singh ji, you talk of things the hindus have given us, the hindus have given us nothing.  Guroo ji gave us everthiing


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 8, 2005)

Gurfateh

Dear Brother Singhstah JI,

Whehn Panth was made there was no hindu nor Muslim but only Akal was there.It us who gave to all.

Well what das trys to say that there could be som e similarty between us or orther faiths but that does not mean that we must give up our practises or devotion.

Arti in hindus is more a ritaul intial though it could be symbolism.

In us Arti is symbolism only and not the ritualism.What does it mean?

well some people do not sing Arti at all.

Some sing in siolation.

some sing in Gurudwaras without lamps

some sing with lamps.

Till all is allwoed and no force is attched that this is the only way and should be done as must, it is symbolism,when it is forced as a rule and rigidity it is ritualism.

Das has seen Gurudwaras in west where Arti is not at all sung while in India it is done in the veing so as code book of Rahit it is not the nitneem.

So even Arti is not sung it is OK.

but if art is sung then people from Sikh family may not know nor non Hindu people nor lower caste hindus at one time did know how(as then they were prevented to visit Temple) Hindus did arti in Temple so meaning of our Arti they may not be able to get.

but if simiar lar thing is done in Gurudwara they will be able to see similar to Hindus.Here Arti wants to tell us aabout sturdt state therory of universe as per Dhansari Mahal 1,Guru tells us that universe moves with componment to sing glory of God and that is Arti.

Like we use many balls to represent planet,moon or sun in solar system to let people understand the truth.

We can use the Arti with lamp and sound to tech still bigger theory but symbols are for teaching only.Akal Bless.


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## Archived_member2 (Dec 8, 2005)

Satsriakal to all and Gurdip Singh Chana Ji!

It looks like you are more interested in hating others than fall in love with them. Be sure God belongs to the other side till one is completely in love with HIM.

Actions are pure activities. Those do not have a religion. All activities are Godly and HIS WILL.

Our Gurus sang Aartee even when other symbols like thaal, lamps, ghee, dhoop and flowers were not available.

One may blaze off lamps so that those are not used for Aartee. But please do not try to blaze off the sun and moon because those are participating happily in God's Aartee since ages.

Kudrat (nature) is doing Aartee uninterruptedly. Is nature a Sikh or a Hindu?

Human beings try to imitate God. Unconsciously they start embodying nature (Maya) till they come to know God.

Everything, also Aartee, is left behind when God consciousness arises.

But no one comes to know God by discarding anything, also Aartee.

Sikhs may reject the Hindu Aartee if this is the way our Gurus suggested us to achieve God.

No one comes to the wisdom of God by rejecting or holding an opinion about an action.

Anyone may get the wisdom of God when he lets all flow also Aartee.

Have you ever thought why our Guru sang "kaisee aartee ho-ay. bhav khandnaa tayree aartee." SGGS page 13

Aartee happens. Aartee may take place in anyone in any way.

Who are we to call it a Sikh or Hindu Aartee?

Everyone does Aartee as God wants him to do.

Gurbani says "jo tis bhaavai so aartee ho-ay." SGGS page 13



Balbir Singh


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## FireStorm (Dec 11, 2005)

I absolutely do not agree or support the views of Balbir Singh Ji or Vijaydeep Singh Ji.

Firstly I dont think Chana Ji hates someone and such remarks should not have been made against him. He has merely pointed out a corrupt practice started from the era of Mahants and something which has no value add and needs to be stopped. 

Guys we need to look at sikhism in its entirety, and not from a single point. The physical aarti has never been and will never be a part of sikhism and there is no need for us to associate with the same. 

These things ought to be nipped in the bud, or they will give rise to fuller problems. Tommorow people may even start doing Havan. Ok, so we will discard such activities also as 'ours being spirtual' and their being physical. Slowly such activities will matter more than the actual teachings of the Gurus. people will think doing aarti or havan is enough for them and they need not do anything else. 

This is exactly what is happening now, with people taking a swip at the Thaali and then putting it to their face,

Simple as that Guru Granth Sahib is not a stone idol, which needs to be worshippd in an aarti form. Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru, and the way to worship the Guru is to read, understand and imbibe the teachings on our daily life.

I think Mr. Chana Ji is right in pointing out this practice which needs to be stopped. 

It is best to respect other religions but at the same time to maintain our identity. Both physical and spirtual aspects of a religion are important. We can ignore one at the peril of jeopardising the other


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 11, 2005)

Gurfateh

Das is not supporting arti as such but only wanted to prove that it hass nothing to do with Mahants who have so called attempt to bring us into hindusim.

It was rather a way to bring others to our faith.

It depends upon how much faith do we ahve on our God Akal and so we are above insecurity complex.

Das here wants to inform that Catholic missionaries in India have also started the Arti of Mary and Jesus and offer coconut to them just to attract hindus and this thier way of preaching.

While when we talk about taking Arti or what we call swiping the hands.

It is symbol that devotee is higher to deity in hindus but in us it means that Khalsa is equal to Guru.As per Sarbloh Granth Guru has 12 forms,Two are Guru Granth Sahib and Guru Panth while other ten are our Gurus.

Das is supporting to stop Arti not due to fear of Hindus but form making Guramat more simple.

By the way das is reapeating the question.

why like hindus do with thier idols do we carry out Santokh and Praksah(in Hindus we further have afternoon break also).

And what about making Palkis of gold,Domes of gold or putting Rumalas or woolen cloaths on Guru Granth Sahib Ji in winter or Air conditioning in summer?And waht about Sehra or flower being sold to be put around Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

Das finds roots of this not by an attempt of outsider to absorb but are aliments carried into Panth from pagan convertees who just entered Panth for reason other then getting impreesed by ideology.

Das again repeat that what is wrong if Sikhs did disobey Muslim rulers of that time like they disobyed by not eating Halal,when it was also made mandtory?

Another thing is about Havan.

Well it is there in the form of Sampat Path or Chaliah and was there till long.

Logically when we were not having mosquito repellent or other insecticide like old Aryans Sikhs in jungles might also have used it to manitain the concentration to study Gurbani.

Das can say that if all out mosquitoo repelleant is used in Gurudwara while Akhand Path is done and intention is the welfare of Sangat then that also is Sampat Path but old Sampat Path with herbs being burnt was more eco freindly.

but be it Arti or Havan etc. what matters is what is good for Sangat and is local Sangat sesnible enough that they may not be misguuided into ritualism.

to play safe we can ban it.Or if som e does it then he/she must explain that why is it done.


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## Archived_member2 (Dec 11, 2005)

Satsriakal to all and FireStorm Ji!

GS Chana Ji wrote these words ". . . AARTI begins at the gurdwara, and to my HORROR, SICKNESS, and Disappointment, the AARTI performed is quiet literally a HINDU ritual."
He wrote further "Now I am not being offensive to Hindus, but this act is a wasteful, non meaningful and not related to God in any single way." And "what the hell is the meaning of that, its like doing the same thing to a picture of Guru's, UTTERLY WASTEFUL."

In my view, these are not words full of love to someone.

--------------

You wrote "Guys we need to look at sikhism in its entirety, and not from a single point. The physical aarti has never been and will never be a part of sikhism and there is no need for us to associate with the same."

Sikhs sing Aartee with music instruments. Is it not a physical Aartee?

Please provide a reference where our Gurus have instructed us to sing Aartee?

Aartee happens. Aartee is happening. Aartee happened through our Gurus words.

Since when Sikhs have started this ritual imitating and why?

Aartee was being performed in many Gurdwaras also in Punjab by our elderly generations. It is still being performed in many Gurdwaras with lamps, flowers etc.

Were our elders not closer to the Truth?

Sikhs from Hazoor Sahib and Patna Sahib say that they are carrying the Aartee in the same way as that from our Gurus time.

Why so many changes have been introduced in activities of Gurdwaras in Northern India since our Guru's time? 

Please guide many further.


Balbir Singh


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## gs_chana (Dec 11, 2005)

WJKWJF...

First of all I would like to apologise for being a bit HARSH to some, and sounding like I have full hatred in my mind for Hindus. 

I have hatred in my mind on the basis that we are performing rituals...Guruji instructs us how to live life, how become one with God, how to love and etc NOT PERFORM RITUALS OF ENDLESS MEANS.  

However, this arguement i was making was not based on hatred for a religion, RATHER it was based on the fact that why worship Guruji if what I have mentioned above is what Guru ji teaches us. 

We have involved ourselves in rituals of worshipping Guruji, who is not an Idol. REMEMBER, Guru Gobind Singh said that those who call me God or Worship me will go to hell...NOW THAT IS NOT WHAT I'VE MADE UP...GuRUJI SAYS SO. 

Now are you going to disobey Guruji just to respect another faith??

I was trying to make the point on how empty the arti of guruji really is, because as pointed out by FIRESTORM, we are required to follow guruji, to WORSHIP GOD, NOT OUR GURU. Respect of Guruji comes not from performing rituals to Guruji, rather following and obeying Guruji is ultimate respect for Guruji. 

Guruji says in aarti that Naam Tero Aarti...Naam Phul Mala, Naam tere etc... EVERYTHING IS NAAM. Aarti of GOD is not done by Physical aarti...or SYMBOLISM...God's Aarti is simply done by meditating on Gods name and his attributes. 

Please do not assume I have hatred for religion...I guess i wrote the article when I was in a bit of a state of shock and disgust due to the fact that our people are being SUCKED INTO these rituals and empty matters. 

PLEASE BROTHERS AND SISTERS..AWAKEN...As said by FIRESTORM 

"Guys we need to look at sikhism in its entirety, and not from a single point. The physical aarti has never been and will never be a part of sikhism and there is no need for us to associate with the same"

STOP THIS PETTY ARGUMENT THAT I HAVE HATRED TOWARDS HINDUISM...Its only a shame that FIRESTORM has understood exactly what point I was trying to make about Aarti. Understand what is the meaning of aarti..and in conclusion...understand that Aarti is not done by circuling thaals and divas around Guruji or Photos of Guruji and his shastras...rather...it is done by meditating on God...as Guruji in countless places says...read Guru Granth and tell me whether I am right or wrong that ultimate prayer...ultimate sacrifice to God is done by meditation and meditation only...sewa of god achieves everything NOT WORLDLY DEEDS.

Thank you...sorry for offending anyone..sorry for saying anything which was offensive...and I hope this article clarifies exactly what I was intitally trying to say.

Gurdip singh chana


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## Archived_member2 (Dec 11, 2005)

Satsriakal to all and Gurdip Singh Chana Ji!
Thanks for you clarifications.

You wrote "I have hatred in my mind on the basis that we are performing rituals..."

May I ask why we hate others when we perform rituals?

The universes are God's activities. A person who is blessed with God's experience has no hate, even for so-called rituals, what to say about religions and religious activities.

People from a religion are never convinced that they are ritualists.

You also wrote "...understand that Aarti is not done by circuling thaals and divas around Guruji or Photos of Guruji and his shastras...rather...it is done by meditating on God..."and "...ultimate sacrifice to God is done by meditation and meditation only...sewa of god achieves everything NOT WORLDLY DEEDS."

Please suggest how to meditate on God, do HIS Sewa and Aartee whom a person has not come to know.


Balbir Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 12, 2005)

Gurfateh

Chana Sahib Das is happy that you have faiht in Vachitar Natak which has staing of Guru Gobind Singh Ji that if anyone beholf him as God will go to lake of hell and behold him as slave of that and doubt/secret about it is to be recoganise.I am slave of Supereme complete and come to se the play of universe.

But in Dasham Granth also there is part of Arti still sung in Gurudwaras with or without plates,flower or bells ie

Yate Prassan bhaye Hain Maha munn Devan to Tap menain Sukh pavven Yag Karen Ik Bhed Rare Bhav Tape hare mil Dhayne Lave.

Jhaalar Tal Mridang Upang Rabab Liye Sur Saj Milaven
Kinnar Gandhrap Gan Gun Jachh Appchaer Nriat Dhikhaven.

Sankah anKi dhuna Gahtan Ki kar Phoolan Ki Barkah Barkaven.
Arti Kot Kare Sur Sunder Pekah Purander Ke Bal Javen

Dannat Dashan De Ke Pardash Bhal mein Kukan Achat Laven.
Hoot Kulahal Dev Puri mil devan Ke kul Mangal Gave.

It is from Same Dasham Granth and Arti is being told being done to Akal/Allah/Jehova/Yehova/Parbraham by Angels and all Flower,bells etc.

In fact lamp is perhaps not mentioned.

May be Guru could see such thing in glory of Akal.

and das support this view that nither picture nor Guru Granth Sahib Ji are to be worshipped and Arti of Akal is also being happening by Angels.

That is thier way but We can sing gory just by rembering Akal with each breath.But is only dome by mercy of Akal.

forgive das if verse above in Braj language and Roman Script is not properly writtan.Das will try to bring it correctly soon.


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## hps62 (Dec 19, 2005)

Dear Brother Channa

Dont  get disturbed.
Sikhism is a universal religion .
It  encompassess all the religions .

Guru granth  sahib may not include directl  saying  from some western  religion due to non interaction but  its essence is of "one father for all by what ever name  " sarvat  ka bhalla ".

I feel Artiis are a part  of our mother religion . Why as a son should it upset you . A  mass / a Id prayers / and all religion worship  will capture  the  spirit of  sikhism.

Sikhism is all about  having the unity of all religions.

SSAKAL
WGKWGF
 hps62


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## devinesanative (Dec 19, 2005)

gs_chana said:
			
		

> WJKWJF...
> 
> First of all I would like to apologise for being a bit HARSH to some, and sounding like I have full hatred in my mind for Hindus.
> 
> ...


 

Whom should one Obey Guruji Or God . Or Both ?

How one can obey two Hukums at one time ?

One should draw and get Inspiration and Show respect to Guruji and "God Helps those WHo helps Themselves".


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 20, 2005)

Gurfateh

Dear hps62 Ji,

We as Singh are mother of all religeons.

Gurmat is Sanatan religeon.From us does Hindus,Muslims or Christians arose.

When akal made universe Brahma,Vishnu and Mahesh were initial Sikhs of Akal.

So Gumat has no mother religeon nor we are son religeon.It is only some of our intellectuals who have made that First Master started Sikh faith.

It is wrong and there fore divine Seantive Ji,We have only one Guru Gurbar Akal and no human Guru at all.

Akal does manifest in Gurbani and in Panth.Ten Gurus were medium of Gurubani to reach us.

Das is soory if wrong is writtan and forgive das.Das was only putting the view of Sanatan Sikhs.

Thier site is sarbloh.info

and Site anti to them is amritworld.com

visit the both sites.


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## Terlochan_singh (Dec 20, 2005)

WaheGuru Ji ka Khalsa WaheGuru Ji Ki Fateh

I am totally new to this forum so please forgive me if i say something wrong.

Secondly i recently started knowing our religion so still learning . i know there are miles to go before i sleep.

If we read the aarti properly then we can come to know that what it states.

*The sky is the salver
And the sun and the moon the lamps.
The luminous stars on the heavens are the pearls.
Scented air from the sandal-clad hills is the incense,
The winds make the fan for Thee,
And the vast forests wreath of flowers.
The unstruck music of creation is the trumpet.
Thus goes on the Arati (adoration) for Thee,
O' Thou dispeller of doubt and fear!*



* when Guru Ji stated that sky is the plate which has sun and moon as the deepak then why do we require a thal with deyas in it for the aarti.*

*The aarti was written by Guru Ji after he saw the aarti at Jaganath Temple Puri.(please correct me if i am wrong).*
​


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 20, 2005)

Gurfateh

yes you are correct about Jaganath Puri where non hindus and lower castes are not allowed.How can be that idol be God when it disrcrimanted upon for even neo converted Hindus into thyat Temple.

Hindus must remove this ban from entry to Jagannath Puri to neo converts or at least lower castes among non hindus(Such thing was even there in past for Darbar Sahib till reform of Gurudwaras came into force).


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## Archived_member2 (Dec 20, 2005)

Satsriakal to all and Terlochan Singh Ji!
You raised a good question. "when Guru Ji stated that sky is the plate which has sun and moon as the deepak then why do we require a thal with deyas in it for the aarti."

The holy Vaak from Gurdev is "gagan mai thaal rav chand deepak banay taarikaa mandal janak motee." SGGS page 663-5

Gagan means sky. Sky has a character. It is space and gives space to all. It gives space to the plate also that is used for Aartee.

'Gagan mai thaal' means the plate in the sky. It is often false translated as sky is the plate.

--------------

You also wrote "The aarti was written by Guru Ji after he saw the aarti at Jaganath Temple Puri."

I am not able to find where our Gurus have narrated a story like that. Please provide a reference.


Balbir Singh


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## Terlochan_singh (Dec 20, 2005)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

please refer the link http://www.sikh.net/SIKHISM/Aarti.htm.

Terlochan Singh


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## Archived_member2 (Dec 20, 2005)

Satsriakal to all!

It is interesting to note that our Gurus did not write any Janam Sakhis about previous Gurus.

After some hundred years Sakhis are being produced by their followers to help the present generation remain Sikhs.


Balbir Singh


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## Terlochan_singh (Dec 21, 2005)

Just to add a few things abt Takhat Sachkand Sri Hazoor Sahib.

if you go for darshan during the HolaMhla or Dushera then you will find that a goat is being sacrificed just next to the Nishan Sahib
The amrit sanchar at Takhat Sachkand Sri Hazoor Sahib is done in open. i mean not in closed doors as done every where else.

Terlochan SIngh


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## Archived_member2 (Dec 21, 2005)

Satsriakal to all!

Even Devtaas feel ecstasy when demons are killed.

But since when some persons have found an enemy in goats.

It may be the preparation for new bhogs of karmas but surely not a step toward Mukti.

Should a true Sikh do Simran or imitate these goats whom any Baba can sacrifice on the name of religion.


Balbir Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 21, 2005)

Gurfateh

Goat is killed by Budhadal in Punjab also in past it was done at Akal Takhat also.

Yuo can see the same in Chamkaur Sahib.

As per Tradtions Amrit Sanskar is nothing to do with rituals to be it secret as it is open others also get interested to join the faith.

Amrit has to do more with motivation to get salvation while being alive and no ritualism but for Bibekis in Nihungs.


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## zxc279 (Dec 25, 2005)

Hi according to me one cannot progress on the path mentioned by 10 Gurus until one attains "NAM" FROM A TRUE "LIVING" SATGURU!!
According to me when one gets Nam,by meditating on that Nam, one gradually gets access to the higher regions.Otherwise he remains stuck up to these external rituals.
The same i think is mentioned in each and every page of "Guru Granth Sahib" but sadly we all are being mislead by all these outwardly rituals.
One who has read Guru Granth Sahib he/she must have come across words like "Panch Shabd","Poore Gur","Nirmal Bani","Anahad Shabhd",wht i feel is tht there are higher melodies which are ringing forth continuously and one can hear them only when one progresses gradually in meditation,and these very melodies guide the soul to the mansion of the lord.All these visions which are mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib are to be experienced within one's self and not by burning divas and candles outside and having a wrong notion that by doing this "ill get salvation" or "god will be happy with me".
We can call ourselves true disciples/true devotees only when we practise what the gurus tried conveying to us.
THAT'S WHT IS MY UNDERSTANDING OF GURU GRANTH SAHIB IN SHORT.NOONE FEEL OFFENDED. PLS.BUT THTS MY UNDERSTANDING!!THANKS.


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## zxc279 (Dec 25, 2005)

One more thing..For eg. IF WE TAKE UP PHYSICS AS A SUBJECT,WE USE THE TEXT BOOK ETC. AND ALSO GO FOR PRACTICALS INORDER TO GET KNOWLEDGE ABOUT IT ALTHOUGH THE AUTHOR OF THE TEXT BOOK HAS PASSED AWAY LONG AGO.BUT YET WE DO NEED A TEACHER WHO CAN TEACH US THE THEORY OF THT AUTHOR AND WHT HE MEANT.IF WE TAKE UP THE SUBJECT BY OURSELVES WE CANT BECOME MASTERS IN IT.
SO THE GURU GRANTH SAHIB IS ALSO THE COMPILATION OF THE TEACHINGS OF ALL THE SAINTS BUT IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THE DEPTH OF THESE TEACHINGS AND TO BRING THEM INTO PRACTICE,WE DO NEED THE HELP OF A PERFECT LIVING MASTER WHO HAS EXPERIENCED THE TRUTHS WITHIN.
OTHERWISE I DONT THINK POOJA PAATH CAN TAKE US FACE TO FACE WITH THE LORD OR HELP US IN ATTAINING SALVATION.


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## devinesanative (Dec 25, 2005)

zxc279 said:
			
		

> One more thing..For eg. IF WE TAKE UP PHYSICS AS A SUBJECT,WE USE THE TEXT BOOK ETC. AND ALSO GO FOR PRACTICALS INORDER TO GET KNOWLEDGE ABOUT IT ALTHOUGH THE AUTHOR OF THE TEXT BOOK HAS PASSED AWAY LONG AGO.BUT YET WE DO NEED A TEACHER WHO CAN TEACH US THE THEORY OF THT AUTHOR AND WHT HE MEANT.IF WE TAKE UP THE SUBJECT BY OURSELVES WE CANT BECOME MASTERS IN IT.
> SO THE GURU GRANTH SAHIB IS ALSO THE COMPILATION OF THE TEACHINGS OF ALL THE SAINTS BUT IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THE DEPTH OF THESE TEACHINGS AND TO BRING THEM INTO PRACTICE,WE DO NEED THE HELP OF A PERFECT LIVING MASTER WHO HAS EXPERIENCED THE TRUTHS WITHIN.
> OTHERWISE I DONT THINK POOJA PAATH CAN TAKE US FACE TO FACE WITH THE LORD OR HELP US IN ATTAINING SALVATION.


 

100 % Right , Your Replies are really Appreciative and must be endorsed by everyone .


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## Admin (Dec 25, 2005)

> one cannot progress on the path mentioned by 10 Gurus until one attains "NAM" FROM A TRUE "LIVING" SATGURU!!





> *SO THE GURU GRANTH SAHIB IS ALSO THE COMPILATION OF THE TEACHINGS OF ALL THE SAINTS BUT IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THE DEPTH OF THESE TEACHINGS AND TO BRING THEM INTO PRACTICE,WE DO NEED THE HELP OF A PERFECT LIVING MASTER WHO HAS EXPERIENCED THE TRUTHS WITHIN.*


Your both posts are ambigious and are only going to confuse the tender minds.

Which living Guru you are talking about?
Who is the True Living Guru?
How do we know that s/He has attained the Truth within?
By your above statement, it is clear that you mean to say that Sikh Masters failed to convey the message or What else you meant to say?

Please be clear in your thoughts.



> When one gets Nam,by meditating on that Nam, one gradually gets access to the higher regions.


What kind of Nam that someone get from somebody?
How someone can gets it?
Who gives that Nam?

Actually, i wonder what and whom are you talking about. 




> One who has read Guru Granth Sahib he/she must have come across words like "Panch Shabd","Poore Gur","Nirmal Bani","Anahad Shabhd",wht i feel is tht there are higher melodies which are ringing forth continuously and one can hear them only when one progresses gradually in meditation,and these very melodies guide the soul to the mansion of the lord.


Please explain on the words you have mentioned from Gurbani. I find it hard to correlate this with your previous statements above.


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## kds1980 (Dec 25, 2005)

wjkk
wjkf

   zxc if you are learning  science from teacher and after 2 years you know that the teacher is fake then what will you.it is not possible to find a true living guru 99.999% chance is you go with the fake guru.it is better to learn science from books rather than a fake teacher


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 25, 2005)

Gurfateh

Well is not is surprising when a teacher who teaches the study by inventer or discovers as his own.

Satguru was that to whom verses were delivered by Satguru by self.

One who preachers that is nothing but manifezstation of Satguru.

Sat means true and Guru means the one who removes darkness.

AS per Gurubar Akal Khalsa who is one be self is Guru Panth.

There is no differance between Ten Gurus,Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Panth Khalsa and so Panth Khalsa is Satgurudev alive to guide us.

when Panth has Gaddi or throne then why should Sikhs aloow anyone to be higher then them who does not know thier status and come to guide us.

From Gulaba Kharti to Radhswamis,Nirankaris to Asutoos Ji allhave come and gone.

Panth reamins.If Gurbar Akal wants we get truth By Akal with no via media.

We are Khalsa or pure as we purly recoganise Akal and no Guru ,Peer or Avtar.

We ourself enjoy the status of Guru.

A person who seeks to enjoy the Satus of Satguru then join us and we as Satguru will make him one with Satguru.

Khalsa Mera Satguru Pura.

As per Tenth Master Khalsa was and is and will remain Satguru of First Master himself.

his any living Guru wants salvation let him come and make us his/her Guru.

Teacher can not be discverer or invernter.

Our Panth has since beging Three form of Guru,Gurbar Akal ie primalGuru with no other but that.Sabad Guru or verbal manifestation of Akal and Panth Guru or Humans as a group who follow words and preach that being one with Akal.

no man can teach any other human nor can any book but one who is in all does that.
Das would like to say that so far charn grewal of radhswamis has gone to hell and so has gone gurbachna and so will asutoos.

Hel means moving in spirit without body.Our Guru is Akal who is in us and guides us.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 25, 2005)

Gurfateh

Being from Nirmala side das can explain a few things.

Anahad Sabad is actual Anahat Sabad ie sound heard with out impact or clash.

Panch Sabad are five sounds of various instruments etc.

As per Gurmat these things are of very lower level of sprituality which Radhswamis preach who are nothing else but our(Nirmalas) outshoots.

At the level when one is one With Akal there is no feeling of light or sound as that feeling is abouve 5 sense so fifve sense can not get it.

Like dumb can not say how sweet is suger so can not one tell,.

If we read Guru Granth Sahib or Dasham Granth and follow the instruction  care fully we reach state much more above then the menaioted above.

Gurus sued termnelogy of Yogis only let them understand that Raj Yog of Panth can give them all which they could not get for years of meditation with in no time and even better than that.

But for all mercy of Akal is needed.First Master did not have living Guru but Akal as Sabad was his Guru.Same is our Guru and can guide us.

when it stat we feel like to surrender to Akal with love and find Akal in all.So no distinct sound or light are left as Akal m ade all and all are false and desructable but Akal is true as not made by anyone and Saibhang.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## zxc279 (Dec 25, 2005)

Aman Singh said:
			
		

> Your both posts are ambigious and are only going to confuse the tender minds.
> 
> Which living Guru you are talking about?
> Who is the True Living Guru?
> ...


 

It comes in Guru Sahib:

Sachche Shabd,Sachi Puth Hoi
Bin Naavai Mukt Na Paye Koi
Bin Satgur koi Naam na paye
Prabh aisi banat banai hai.

Nirmal Bani-Pure Melody
Anahad Shabd-UnstruCK Music
Poore Gur-The guru who has attained the Highest region,"SachKhand".

And as regards to how to recognize a true guru,in Guru Sahib it comes:

"Jis dekhai mun hoye anand,
So Satgur Purukh Sujaan."

"Gur Pir Sadaai,Mangan Jaaye
Taanko Moor na laago paye

Ghaal khaye kuch huthon de,
Nanak Raah Pahchaane Se"


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## zxc279 (Dec 25, 2005)

Guru Amar Das sums it all up:
"PAVIT PAAVAN SE JAN SAACHE EK SHABD LIV LAA'I
BIN NAAVAI HOR POOJ NA HOVI BHARAM BHULI LOKAA'I"

"BIN SATGUR BHAGTI NA HOVAI NAAM NA LAGAI PYAAR
JAN NAANAK NAAM ARAADHYA GUR KAI HET PYAAR"


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## zxc279 (Dec 25, 2005)

Bhai Gurdas-"Satgur sat saroop hai dhyaan mool gur moorat jaanai"


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## devinesanative (Dec 26, 2005)

1. How Should One Surrender to AKal ?
2. When Should One Surrender to Akal ?
3. Is There any specific direction , location and specific time that one should surrender to AKAL ?
4. Who Should Surrender to Akal ?

Dear vijaydeep ji 

A dumb cannot tell the taste but you cannot say that he didn't tasted it . 

If you feel that Akal is in everyone then why you criticized the commercial gurus of RadhaSoamis and others.

In one of you posts you said "

Das finds Guru even in Foes .

Then how you say the one human cannot teach another human . 

You also said that no book can teach any man , Then on what basis you endorse reading Dasam Granth .


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## devinesanative (Dec 26, 2005)

zxc279 said:
			
		

> It comes in Guru Sahib:
> 
> Sachche Shabd,Sachi Puth Hoi
> Bin Naavai Mukt Na Paye Koi
> ...


 
The above line is self understanding , and clearly speaks the truth. 

But, many people have read SGGS more than 100 times by way of AKhand Path .

But it Seems they are more or less 

"AKHAND PATH JOCKEYS"


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## zxc279 (Dec 26, 2005)

devinesanative said:
			
		

> The above line is self understanding , and clearly speaks the truth.
> 
> But, many people have read SGGS more than 100 times by way of AKhand Path .
> 
> ...


 
Devinesanative,I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH U


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 26, 2005)

Gurfateh

in the above verse Satguru refers to Akal.

Ie Sat(Truth) which is Guru ie Akal else all created Human Gurus are flase and not Sat.

In fact as per anand Sahib Bani without Sat Guru is deemed Kachchi or weak that means that without Akal or glory of Akal verses are weak or false.

So any of Gurbani without meaning Akal in interpetation is not allowed to be correct.

Then DS Ji,

You ask how or when to surrender to Akal.

If we think we can do that then we will never succed.

It is Akal who does that when mercy of Akal is there.

Symptons of them are that we feel surredering to Akal or going to Panthic Guru.

Our Guru is veryly in Radhswamis and das does not hate them there fore das invites them to becoame Sikh.


In thier form Guru tests us that how much faith do we have in Akal.

And by mercy of Guru does test is passed.

It is strange but truth by self Akal takes Test and by self passes.

Das would lie to say that Damdami Taksal,Rara Sahib,Nanaksar,Nirmalas,Gobind Sadan,3Ho all do teach us Naam but no one claims to be satguru but those with ego who want to claim that only they are equal to God claim that.

To misguide they may say that they are humble but if they are so then they must recoganse that they are not the guide and are nothing but only Akal is all.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 26, 2005)

Gurfateh

In Dasham Granth too DS Ji Akal will guiide you else book is only made up of paper and ink hich decay.Books are made by printing press but words Akal creat.

das also wants to say that as more and more living Gurus mushroom around there with be more sects and more division and resultant discord between humans as persons fight over inperfect humans findin fault in each others.

As per Bachitar Natak Tenth Master made Panth only related To Akal.Name of nor himself or any other Hukman but of Akal.That is the Reason that Tenth Master did not use his or Nanak Name in his verses.

In Kalki avtar correctly Guru told that in evil age of Kaliyuga there will be many sects and many will live short and die.And that all is happening with living Gurus.

Panth is unprecedented as we have blotless Guru as Akal,who never is born nor dies.


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## zxc279 (Dec 26, 2005)

vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> Gurfateh
> 
> In Dasham Granth too DS Ji Akal will guiide you else book is only made up of paper and ink hich decay.Books are made by printing press but words Akal creat.
> 
> ...


 
The thing is that Akal cannot be experienced and seen at this physical level.I think he can be realized only through meditation and meditation is possible only with the help of Nam and the grace of Guru.Akal is beyond time and mind and we can experience all this when we search withinourselves.That is wy i quoted some verses above of Guru Sahib.

Another way to recognize a true guru is alo mentioned in Guru Sahib:

"Ghar mein Ghar dikhlai de,
So Satgur Purukh Sujaan"

What i feel is tht when we have faith in the Guru and do simran of the nam,with his grace we can merge into Akal and achieve God-Realization in this very human body i.e. get back to our true home "SachKhand"!! 

By thinking tht after Death we'll meet Akal and realize him shows that we 
ARE LIVING IN THE MIDST OF CONCEPTS!!BY HAVING FAITH ON A TRUE GURU AND MEDITATING ON THE "NAM" WE CAN ACHIEVE GOD REALIZATION WHILE LIVING.

Kabir-"Nirankaar ki aarsi saadhon hi ki deh,
Lakha  jo chahe ALAKH KO inhi mein Lakh LE"

BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT ITS "ALL THE LORD'S GRACE". IT ALL DEPENDS ON THAT.

BUT IM TRYING TO SAY THAT WHAT DID GURU SAHIB MEAN TO SAY WHEN IT IS SAID IN SGGS:

"Nau Darwaze Daswein Mukta
Anahad Shabd Wajavanya"

"Gur ka naam Amritras Meetha"

"Gur ka Shabd Maharas Meetha"

There is surely depth in these quotes,but i dont want to argue any more on the subject.To end it all up frm my end, I quote one of the saints,:-

"Yah Karni ka bhedh hai,Nahi buddhi vichaar,
Buddhi Chhod KARNI KARO,To paao kuch SAAR"

Anyway friends,it was nice talking to ull..


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## Admin (Dec 26, 2005)

zxc279 said:
			
		

> The thing is that Akal cannot be experienced and seen at this physical level.I think he can be realized only through meditation and meditation is possible only with the help of Nam and the grace of Guru.Akal is beyond time and mind and we can experience all this when we search withinourselves.That is wy i quoted some verses above of Guru Sahib.
> 
> Another way to recognize a true guru is alo mentioned in Guru Sahib:
> 
> ...


 
Dear zxc279 and devinesanative Ji !!

You both conveinently missed some of my important questions. So, I would request you both to reply to following in details one by one. Thanks


Which living Guru you are talking about? What is his/her Name? Please be specific.
Who is the Perfect True Living Guru Today? Please specify the Name.
How do you know that s/he has attained the Truth within?
By your above statements, it is clear that you said to say that Sikh Masters failed to convey the message. What do you meant?
What kind of Naam that someone get from somebody?
What its called?
How can someone get it simply given by someone?
Who can give such a Naam?


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 26, 2005)

Gurfateh



> "Yah Karni ka bhedh hai,Nahi buddhi vichaar,
> Buddhi Chhod KARNI KARO,To paao kuch SAAR"


 
This is modus operandi of Radhasoamis, fake nirankaris etc. who put quotes from Gurbani and at last put total contradiction.

The 'sant' who made such comment can not be sant at all.

It is neither in capabilty of mind nor body or anything else for union with Akal.

You have again not understood and das will keep on trying to let you get understand.

Akal is not an entity in space and we as an entity with the help of deed (you call it meditation) by getting support by third person as guru going to get.

Till we say that we are an entity we are away from Akal.

In fact as per Gurbani its Akal who makes us one with self. No man can help either himself as student nor others as Guru.

When Akal wants we have feeling that our deeds of worship or meditatoin are not our nor are our evil deeds.

So far some one claims to be guide and tells of action and till followers says that he/she follows it is clear that they are kept away by Akal from self.

Only choosen few who Akal wants they only are one with Akal and that also by mercy of Akal and with no self help or help of others.


Visit http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?c=t and http://www.gobindsadan.org/institute/dasam/

You will find that Akal blesses choosen few and our attemt to choosen are futile till we have even a little ego that we intend to get something.

As a Khalsa we are salvaged while alive as our mind and our body and our spirit does not exist like water is one with ocean and fire sarks are one with fire, we are no entity but ocean Akal is entity.

Our God is in physical, spiritual and mental level fake people separate the threes while all are one.

Das can only recommend you by mercy of Akal to think about that as Mentioned by Guru.


ਪ੍ਰਣਵੋ ਆਦਿ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥
प्रणवो आदि एकंकारा ॥
I Salute the One Primal Lord.

ਜਲ ਥਲ ਮਹੀਅਲ ਕੀਓ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥
जल थल महीअल कीओ पसारा ॥
Who pervades the watery, earthly and heavenly expanse.

ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਬਗਤਿ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ॥
आदि पुरख अबगति अबिनासी ॥
That Primal Purusha is Unmanifested and Immortal.

ਲੋਕ ਚੱਤ੍ਰੁ ਦਸ ਜੋਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸੀ ॥੧॥
लोक चत्रु दस जोति प्रकासी ॥१॥
His Light illumines the fourteen worlds. 1

ਹਸਤ ਕੀਟ ਕੇ ਬੀਚ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥
हसत कीट के बीच समाना ॥
He hath merged Himself within the elephant and the worm.

ਰਾਵ ਰੰਕ ਜਿਹ ਇਕ ਸਰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥
राव रंक जिह इक सर जाना ॥
The king and the baggar equal before Him.

ਅਦ੍ਵੈ ਅਲਖ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਬਿਗਾਮੀ ॥
अद्वै अलख पुरख अबिगामी ॥
That Non-dual and Imperceptible Purusha is Inseparable.

ਸਭ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਕੇ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥੨॥
सभ घट घट के अंतरजामी ॥२॥
He reaches the inner core of every heart.2.

ਅਲਖ ਰੂਪ ਅਛੈ ਅਨਭੇਖਾ ॥
अलख रूप अछै अनभेखा ॥
He is an Inconceivable Entity, Exernal and Garbless.

ਰਾਗ ਰੰਗ ਜਿਹ ਰੂਪ ਨ ਰੇਖਾ ॥
राग रंग जिह रूप न रेखा ॥
He is without attachment, colour, form and mark.

ਬਰਨ ਚਿਹਨ ਸਭਹੂੰ ਤੇ ਨਿਆਰਾ ॥
बरन चिहन सभहूं ते निआरा ॥
He distinct from all others of various colours and signs.

ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਦ੍ਵੈ ਅਬਿਕਾਰਾ ॥੩॥
आदि पुरख अद्वै अबिकारा ॥३॥
He is the Primal Purusha, Unique and Changeless.3.

ਬਰਨ ਚਿਹਨ ਜਿਹ ਜਾਤ ਨ ਪਾਤਾ ॥
बरन चिहन जिह जात न पाता ॥
He is without colour, mark, caste and lineage.

ਸੱਤ੍ਰ ਮਿੱਤ੍ਰ ਜਿਹ ਤਾਤ ਨ ਪਾਤਾ ॥
सत्र मित्र जिह तात न पाता ॥
He is the without enemy, friend, father and mother.

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਦੂਰਿ ਸਭਨ ਤੇ ਨੇਰਾ ॥
सभ ते दूरि सभन ते नेरा ॥
He is far away from all and closest to all.

ਜਲ ਥਲ ਮਹੀਅਲ ਜਾਹਿ ਬਸੇਰਾ ॥੪॥
जल थल महीअल जाहि बसेरा ॥४॥
His dwelling is within water, on earth and in heavens.4.

ਅਨਹਦ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਨੀ ॥
अनहद रूप अनाहद बानी ॥
He is Limitless Entity and hath infinite celestial strain.

ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥
चरन सरन जिह बसत भवानी ॥
The goddess Durga takes refuge at His Feet and abides there.
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨ ਅੰਤੁ ਨਹਿ ਪਾਇਓ ॥
ब्रहमा बिसन अंतु नहि पाइओ ॥
Brahma and Vishnu Could not know His end.

ਨੇਤ ਨੇਤ ਮੁਖਚਾਰ ਬਤਾਇਓ ॥੫॥
नेत नेत मुखचार बताइओ ॥५॥
The four-headed god Brahma described Him ad `Neti Neti` (Not this, Not this).5.

ਕੋਟਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਉਪਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਬਨਾਏ ॥
कोटि इंद्र उपइंद्र बनाए ॥
He hath created millions of Indras and Upindras (smaller Indras).

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਉਪਾਇ ਖਪਾਏ ॥
ब्रहमा रुद्र उपाइ खपाए ॥
He hath created and destroyed Brahmas and Rudras (Shivas).

ਲੋਕ ਚੱਤ੍ਰ ਦਸ ਖੇਲ ਰਚਾਇਓ ॥
लोक चत्र दस खेल रचाइओ ॥
He hath created the play of fourteen worlds.

ਬਹੁਰ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਬੀਚ ਮਿਲਾਇਓ ॥੬॥
बहुर आप ही बीच मिलाइओ ॥६॥
And then Himself merges it within His Self.6.

ਦਾਨਵ ਦੇਵ ਫਨਿੰਦ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥
दानव देव फनिंद अपारा ॥
Infinite demons, gods and Sheshanagas.

ਗੰਪ੍ਰਬ ਜੱਛ ਰਚੈ ਸੁਭ ਚਾਰਾ ॥
ग्मप्रब जछ रचै सुभ चारा ॥
He hath created Gandharvas, Yakshas and being of high character.

ਭੂਤ ਭਵਿੱਖ ਭਵਾਨ ਕਹਾਨੀ ॥
भूत भविख भवान कहानी ॥
The story of past, future and present.

ਘਟ ਘਟ ਕੇ ਪਟ ਪਟ ਕੀ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੭॥
घट घट के पट पट की जानी ॥७॥
Regarding the inward recesses of every heart are known to Him.7.

ਤਾਤ ਮਾਤ ਜਿਹ ਜਾਤ ਨ ਪਾਤਾ ॥
तात मात जिह जात न पाता ॥
He Who hath no father, mother caste and lineage.

ਏਕ ਰੰਗ ਕਾਹੂ ਨਹੀ ਰਾਤਾ ॥
एक रंग काहू नही राता ॥
He is not imbues with undivided love for anyone of them.

ਸਰਬ ਜੋਤ ਕੇ ਬੀਚ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥
सरब जोत के बीच समाना ॥
He is merged in all lights (souls).

ਸਭਹੂੰ ਸਰਬ ਠੌਰ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥੮॥
सभहूं सरब ठौर पहिचाना ॥८॥
I have recognized Him within all and visualized Him at all places. 8.
ਕਾਲ ਰਹਤ ਅਨ ਕਾਲ ਸਰੂਪਾ ॥
काल रहत अन काल सरूपा ॥
He is deathless and a non-temporal Entity.

ਅਲਖ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਬਗਤਿ ਅਵਧੂਤਾ ॥
अलख पुरख अबगति अवधूता ॥
He is Imperceptible Purusha, Unmanifested and Unscathed.

ਜਾਤ ਪਾਤ ਜਿਹ ਚਿਹਨ ਨ ਬਰਨਾ ॥
जात पात जिह चिहन न बरना ॥
He who is without caste, lineage, mark and colour.

ਅਬਗਤਿ ਦੇਵ ਅਛੈ ਅਨ ਭਰਮਾ ॥੯॥
अबगति देव अछै अन भरमा ॥९॥
The Unmanifest Lord is Indestructible and ever Stable.9.

ਸਭ ਕੋ ਕਾਲ ਸਭਨ ਕੋ ਕਰਤਾ ॥
सभ को काल सभन को करता ॥
He is the Destroyer of all and Creator of all.

ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਦੋਖਨ ਕੋ ਹਰਤਾ ॥
रोग सोग दोखन को हरता ॥
He is the Remover of maladies, sufferings and blemishes.

ਏਕ ਚਿੱਤ ਜਿਹ ਇਕ ਛਿਨ ਧਿਆਇਓ ॥
एक चित जिह इक छिन धिआइओ ॥
He Who meditates upon Him with single mind even for an instant;

ਕਾਲ ਫਾਸ ਕੇ ਬੀਚ ਨ ਆਇਓ ॥੧੦॥
काल फास के बीच न आइओ ॥१०॥
He doth not come within the trap of death. 10.

See the last verse and understand it.

Remember that God is in you and and me and in all. Regarding meditaion Guru told that by yogic posture and givng pain to body you will spoil the body leave aside getting God.

And if meditation is by repeating name then there is a bird called Pudna who keeps on saying Tuhi, Tuhi but dose not get Akal, till we are entity or does we will not get Akal. With love Akal generates and Akal is seen every where in phyiscal thing also by mercy of Akal we do not get anything.
Akal as Atamdev has two forms as Istdev or Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Gurudev as Guru Panth. 

Das by will of Akal does forwards to you way of Akal ie Khalsa and if Akal wants you will move on it and be one with us as many by heening such have become. But all by mercy of Akal who is not away from you.

you get Akal whereever you think of Akal with concentration to help you.

Living Guru or dead Guru cannot reach so fast in space. And if two are in trouble then where will he go.


As per Kalki Avtar the evil era of Kaliyug we have to much sects each suruving only for days.

Sects or cults are made by more and more lving Gurus and thier followers may fight that who is right and who is wrong.Born and died guru can never be perfect.Only eternal is worhty for it.Adi Ant Eke Avtara Soi Guru Samjhio Hamra.

Behold that as our Guru who is incarnated from begining to end as Akal is manifested or incarnted from beging to end and no one else.
All writtan by das by mercy of Akal.

Anyway best of luck to you otherwise for path you choose but das and his Guru Panth Khalsa are choosen few. Akal Bless.


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## gsingh00 (Dec 26, 2005)

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki Fateh...
_Sat Shri Akaal Singh sahibaan_...'m the new member to SPN...
Just saw a long debate happening on Aarti...I don't see any wrong in happening "Aarti" in Gurudwara's...As Guru Granth sahib say...."Asankh Jap Asankh Bhao, Asankh Pooja Asankh TapTao"...There are many ways of devotion...One cannot count on that...
Everyone is free to pay devotion to God...Guru sahibaan never said you don't do this or that...The only thing they spread is whenever you do "Jap", don't show it off... don't do "_pakhand_"...just come to one God ("Ek Onkar") and don't go elsewhere....one is free to talk to God in his/her own way...The only thing sikh should memorise is he should be pure ("Khalas") at heart...

Gurbani also says "Kar Dandyot Punn Wadda hey"....But did anybody see people doing "dandyot" whenever bowing before Guru Granth Sahib.....It's not the "way" but it's the pure heart that matters when remembering the Guru or enchanting over the name of the Guru....

_I think guru Granth sahib is itself the answer to every Question...Do we need to look elsewhere for our doubts or queries..._

_Nimana..._


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## devinesanative (Dec 26, 2005)

Aman Singh said:
			
		

> Dear zxc279 and devinesanative Ji !!
> 
> You both conveinently missed some of my important questions. So, I would request you both to reply to following in details one by one. Thanks
> 
> ...


 
I would suggest you to read my nonsense posts in the topic "Many Christians ......" , I hope I have mentioned something there.


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## devinesanative (Dec 26, 2005)

zxc279 said:
			
		

> The thing is that Akal cannot be experienced and seen at this physical level.I think he can be realized only through meditation and meditation is possible only with the help of Nam and the grace of Guru.Akal is beyond time and mind and we can experience all this when we search withinourselves.That is wy i quoted some verses above of Guru Sahib.
> 
> Another way to recognize a true guru is alo mentioned in Guru Sahib:
> 
> ...


 
100 % right , Actions speak itself the truth .

My questions of surrendering to Akal were sarcastic one , because , where ever I see , I see Only words , theory , Thesis , stretching each and everything like a chewed chewing Gum.


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## Admin (Dec 26, 2005)

> I would suggest you to read my nonsense posts in the topic "Many Christians ......" , I hope I have mentioned something there.


Why you are shying away from replying... i wonder... If that guy said something so specifically then he must have the answers with him... spirituality is like a chewed chewing gum... the more you try to get inside the more perspectives come out... is that bad ? 

You have not replied to my questions in last post as yet. Thanks.


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## ISDhillon (Dec 26, 2005)

Satsriakal to all,

Was bored so thought I would try my hand at these questions forgive my bluntness. 


Which living Guru you are talking about? What is his/her Name? Please be specific. 

Lets get this straight when we say living we are talking about the word or bani, when you are one with god ,not merging in god, but recognising a oneness in spirit with god then everything that comes out of your mouth is a direct revelation because your inspiration is divinity.  So the vehicle for the word is the flesh when in the body roop and today the vehicle is a piece of paper, the words or bani recognises an intimacy and primacy with our soul, it therefore awakens our soul and this is called “realization”, the truth therefore is spirit or your soul, the truth is something concrete (sat) where as if some thing is “right”, that it is “sach”.  I hope this gets rid of the many schisms which arise out of misunderstanding eg, why was their no female guru? – well there was never a male guru either the guru is the word which has no gender, the vehicle in the bodily form was male for 10 roops but then became paper for eternity in terms of the spiritual repository of the devine, and the temporal aspect became embodied in the collective body of khalsa which are both male and female.


Who is the Perfect True Living Guru Today? Please specify the Name. 

Gurshabad and not just to day but for eternity.


How do you know that s/he has attained the Truth within? 

Because the title guru was given to granth by formal investiture by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji  ie, our prophet never left all other faiths prophets have left, and the ones who are fake saints why cant they give us direct revelation today, why is it that their words are not enough to awaken our soul to the reality within why must they preach from our granth.  The names they impart are not the naam that is referred to in our scripture, the naam we refer to is a oneness in spirit with the lord, it is a kinship it is not a name, mool mantar is repeated to awaken our soul because mool is the jyot and mool mantar is the formula to awaken the soul that’s why sggs says “man to jyot saroop hai apna mool pachaan” – “mind you are fashioned by the divine essence now recognise this inspiration” – by repeating mool mantar this is why we say jap at the end of mool mantar.



By your above statements, it is clear that you said to say that Sikh Masters failed to convey the message. What do you meant? 

No the Sikhs fail to understand the sikh doctrine that includes the fake saints and gurus their position is laughable they don’t realise that those who do understand the sikh doctrine are laughing at their stupidity, years ago people used to say the radhasoami masters are no less than mirza of quadian, this is true there is a pattern here and everyone has failed to see it.


What kind of Naam that someone get from somebody? 

There is an unbroken lineage from god to sikh, guru is there as an aid as it is god captured in history it is the only direct revelation, all other scriptures are in fact just sayings and personal opinions of those who were standing by at the time.  Only one who is one with god can produce bani “jai se mai aavai kasam ki baani”. 


What its called? 

Repeat vaheguru if you want to do simran all else is jog mat, radhasoami secret names are : nirinjan, sat/haq, rarankar, oankar, and sohang, it’s a rehash of jog mat.


How can someone get it simply given by someone? 

The lord is merciful salvation is not through one path or a secret name, the bhagats in sggs were all devoted to the path whether islam or Hinduism, through there respected faiths they inculcated an undying love for the creator which caused them to repeat gods name night and day on every breath, they therefore unknowingly transcended the teaching of their faiths and entered naam marag which is what sikhi teaches us to repeat his name with undying love and devotion and this is not exclusive to any faith, its just in sikhi we actually have an eternal help, the guru encaptured the divinity in history by preparing a guru for eternity both spiritual and temporal- khalsa.


Who can give such a Naam?

God through his grace.


I hope that helps,

Inderjit Singh Dhillon


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## devinesanative (Dec 26, 2005)

ISDhillon said:
			
		

> Satsriakal to all,
> 
> Was bored so thought I would try my hand at these questions forgive my bluntness.
> 
> ...


 
100 % right , Well Done                                                                 !


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## devinesanative (Dec 26, 2005)

Aman Singh said:
			
		

> Why you are shying away from replying... i wonder... If that guy said something so specifically then he must have the answers with him... spirituality is like a chewed chewing gum... the more you try to get inside the more perspectives come out... is that bad ?
> 
> You have not replied to my questions in last post as yet. Thanks.


 
The replies of that are really appreciative .

But can you tell me how some members took him as radhasoami follower .

How people conclude that whether any one is radhasoami ?


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## Admin (Dec 27, 2005)

zxc279 showed *traits* of a radhasoami follower and vijaydeep Singh ji rightly pointed out that trait of him. There is an interesting article on radhasoami followers 

--> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/3217-radhasoami-history-beliefs.html

Please have a look.

Thanks


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## xishveirx (Dec 27, 2005)

kidaan singhs and kaurs

well im no good at philosophical talks.

the fact is it is a ritual and an act of blatant ignorance and incompetency of the granthi(s) and how unfit they are to address the sangat of Guruji.

it is impressive how corrupt and ignorant the minority of the sikh sangat are in india itself compared to countries like malaysia, singapore where sikhs are actually second generation or more and some may not even stepped foot in india.

i honestly think it is a problem. a problem with roots deeply related to how sikhs are in india. 
we are generally still made to appear as hindus and im just thankful that i am not part of that indian society (please understand that i mean no harm by making that statement)
i prefer being born and raised outside india where i get more credit for being a sikh and someone separate from the hindu religion. recognition is important to me as feel many of my dear Gurus gave up a lot to make us a distinct and strong community.

anyway, i might be going off topic there so i would like to reiterate that sikhs in india are at fault and should regroup and start formulating simple ways on working together and being "real" and not "fake"

rab rakha


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## Neutral Singh (Dec 27, 2005)

xishveirx said:
			
		

> kidaan singhs and kaurs
> 
> well im no good at philosophical talks.
> 
> ...



Kiddan veerji, 

How easy it is to run away from the main battlefield and make such brave statements as above. How proud Guru ji would be by seeing such "Real" fake sikhs. (please understand that i mean no harm by making that statement). How easy it is to find faults in others and have a great fun time. But imagine how difficult it is for a sikh in India, to meet a sikh outside India, who behaves like an average typical Hindu Indian...


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## devinesanative (Dec 27, 2005)

Cowards Leave India ....

When They Learn , By Assimilating And Absorbing The Culture , Behaviour And Attitudes Of That Country , Jadon Nak Sunkana Aa Janda Hai Te Galla Aundia Haan !!!!

Je Inni Takat Hai Te India Wich Reh Ke Kiyon Nahi Kuch Karde Ho ... Gaapi Sher.


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## devinesanative (Dec 27, 2005)

Aman Singh said:
			
		

> zxc279 showed *traits* of a radhasoami follower and vijaydeep Singh ji rightly pointed out that trait of him. There is an interesting article on radhasoami followers
> 
> --> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/3217-radhasoami-history-beliefs.html
> 
> ...


 
I think appreciating someone is not a bad thing . 

Moreover there are millions of commercial gurus today vying for the fair market share of the public . With how many people you will fight.


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## Humble_Gursevak (Dec 31, 2005)

devinesanative said:
			
		

> I think appreciating someone is not a bad thing .
> 
> Moreover there are millions of commercial gurus today vying for the fair market share of the public . With how many people you will fight.


 

Gurufateh Veer Ji, Just bringing lighter side to the discussion I like what you wrote "Millions of commercial Gurus". These commercial Gurus’s are running very profitable Guru Business. What are we doing here lets get in the market.
Happy New year to every one Ji
Maffie ji


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## devinesanative (Jan 1, 2006)

Happy New Year Dear Humble Gursevak ...

May be we are doing Market Research ...

A business is profitable when there is a great demand of a solution to a common problem.

Again wishing you a Happy New Year .


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## International Akaali (Jan 1, 2006)

please do aarth of sohila sahib and you will get your answer


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## Manmohan Singh Vijan (Apr 15, 2006)

Will the writer, or any other friend, enlighten me as to what is meant by "Hindu Aarti"?

Is it different from "Aarti"?


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 16, 2006)

Saadh SANGAT Satsriakaalji,
         I dont understand what the problem is when it comes to traditional practices....
  The Panth has its birthplace in India..and if people feel ashamed to be associated with India..they will not hesitate to associate with the Panth.

There has to be understood that Babaji or Sant Kabirji ridiculed rituals in a way because the main motive to be spiritual was lost...since people were worried about mahurats...and they made them understand ...that just facing the east and chanting mantras and just offering water was not the only motive...the main motive was GOD...THE HARI PARMATMA....

We are claiming to be great by rejecting our own roots...just like neo-islamis...we have to understand we are not muslims...we are not idol haters or breakers...our Pehle Guru Padshaahji or the Dasve Padshaahji did not give the message to stop going to temples...or to hate hindus and India...
 He would never do that...we have the same blood....everyone has a different approach to God...

As much as we hate non keshdhaari hindus..do we have that much guts or the zeal to hate the mullah..who have been thirsty for our Guru's blood...perhaps no...
The Khalistanis lick their {censored}...to have their quota ...

I end here..and request you all to think...read Gurubani ..attend Sangat...
Why we do we say Ram Raje so many times...and not allahuakbar..

If your defination of a sikhi is a typical muslim way like ..woman almost covering everything...I feel you should think  twice before you profess to be sikh...the Gurus had been broad minded...why are we going the taliban way?     

May Guru Maharaj give all of us the shakti to realize truth...

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguruji ki Fateh


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## Manmohan Singh Vijan (Apr 16, 2006)

Let us please never forget what Guruji told us about this debate.

_Aowal Allah noor upaya, Kudrat de sabh Bande._
_Ek noor te sab Jag upjaya,_
_Kown bhale kown mande?_

Manmohan.
_Sevadaar._


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## vijaydeep Singh (Apr 16, 2006)

Gurfateh


			
				rajkhalsa said:
			
		

> Saadh SANGAT Satsriakaalji,
> I dont understand what the problem is when it comes to traditional practices....
> The Panth has its birthplace in India..and if people feel ashamed to be associated with India..they will not hesitate to associate with the Panth.
> 
> ...



Dear Brother,


hindu Arti does not exist as at the time of Arti of Idols hindus were  not an entity.

yes Guru Maharaj did oppsed idols and if you read Brahmsutra bu Lord Ved Vysa you will find again anti ido things but they remained theoratical but we are in fact told to break idols.


'These hindu worship Stone,thier mind is like stone,One day my Khalsa will rise to destroy the Devals(Temple)'

Guru Gobind Singh Ji Said this in Sau Sakhi.

let us see Dasham Granth.


'These hill people are idol worshipper while I Am idol breaker'.

Jaffer Nammah.

Being against idolartry is something good for Hindus as from the time of Jainism and Budhism Aryans forsake thier God and went to idolarty and kept on bveing defeated by invaders.


See in Guru Granth Sahib,Das is a former hindu and his father still has faith in Narad Bhakti Sutra(where only idolaroty and worship of person or demigod is preached)This Sutra is by that person who does Bad act so that quota of evil is over soon and good things come fast.He misguides.

So See this verse from Guru Granth Sahib JI.


ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
mehlaa 1.
First Mehl:

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਲੇ ਭੂਲੇ ਅਖੁਟੀ ਜਾਂਹੀ ॥
हिंदू मूले भूले अखुटी जांही ॥
hindoo moolay bhoolay akhutee jaaNhee.
The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.

ਨਾਰਦਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਿ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਂਹੀ ॥
नारदि कहिआ सि पूज करांही ॥
naarad kahi-aa se pooj karaaNhee.
As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols.

ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁੰਗੇ ਅੰਧ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥
अंधे गुंगे अंध अंधारु ॥
anDhay gungay anDh anDhaar.
They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.

ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ ॥
पाथरु ले पूजहि मुगध गवार ॥
paathar lay poojeh mugaDh gavaar.
The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.

ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
ओहि जा आपि डुबे तुम कहा तरणहारु ॥२॥
ohi jaa aap dubay tum kahaa taranhaar. ||2||
But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2||

And 556.
The way Guru oppsed the idol worshipping by Hindus so did Gurus oppsed dead or grave worship by Muslims or Turks(True Muslim can not do suchg sin but Turk can do).

ਬੁਤ ਪੂਜਿ ਪੂਜਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਏ ਤੁਰਕ ਮੂਏ ਸਿਰੁ ਨਾਈ ॥
बुत पूजि पूजि हिंदू मूए तुरक मूए सिरु नाई ॥
but pooj pooj hindoo moo-ay turak moo-ay sir naa-ee.
Worshipping their idols, the Hindus die; the Muslims die bowing their heads to dead

Ang 654.

Das can appriciate that you are and can not be a Muslim.

But Sikh is real follower of Islam(Muslim) as Islam meand surrender to God totaly.

Then coming to Indianness.

Gurmat does not recoganse the national boundaries.It is compulsion of Hindus that they,in order to give justification to thier name(meaning dark from term Andhawar or darkness in Farsi) try to stick to this name.

Gurmat says that person of God needs to be like God and our God is Adesh,not bound to a particular country as found as much in India as in US or Pakistan.

Similar thing Prush Sutra of holy Veda and Book of Issaiah of Old Testment say.

IN Jaffernammah Guru call Prophet as Rasool and God as Allah and this gives confirmation to mool Mantra of Islam but further to it,Guru term Holy Kuran as word of God.

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=1469

See the link above to read the whole text.It is better to un derstand Faith correctly then livng in utopia.

Some of the Das brethern did find Guru as offensie to Hindus and stoped to rever him.Even father of das who lived in utopia that Guru Nanak was Vedi Brahmin lost devotion.

But Truth is truth and as it is.

Guru said niether there is Muslim nor Hindu as God is Adharam,As God lives in all faith,so god is free from communal divisons.As we are Khalsa,purly one with God so any attempt to bring us to divisions of Hindus or Muslims is not as per our faith.

Lastly coming back to Arti issue.

Turban we wear is more nearer to Shias,Matha Tekna or our bowing is same as Sizda of Muslims and not like Dandwat (where whole body is upside dowen kept in front of worshipped and head to stomach to knees to toes touch the ground).

So if Sizda,is there in us,If Panj Sanan(same as Waju of Islam ie cleaning hands,feet and face) is there and nop objiection then what is so fuss about Arti or Yagna being done for Akal.

Das would like to say ligthing Lamps or say Candles or say buring incense on alter like Yagna is part of semtic faith also.

main thing which we need to understand after realising the Truth is that same God works in Hindus and non Hindus and same in Sikhs and non Sikhs.

and in faith code or ritualism etc. does not matter in our Faith first thing is to understand that who is our God.once we understand that then all bhed(differances) are over.

Forgive das if some hurting things are writttan but das is as much anti to Indianism of Hindutva people as Das oppose punjabism of Khalistani brothers.

Our God is limitless and we will never succeed to limti out God by regioanl boundaries.Akal Bless.


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 17, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Maya while injecting ignorance into human beings does not care if one is a Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, Christian or Buddhist. 

Gurdev is singing "but pooj pooj hindoo moo-ay turak moo-ay sir naa-ee."

The shapes of idols change from religion to religion. Please don't be in illusion that only Hindus die worshiping idols.

It is similar with bowing heads. Not only Turks die bowing their heads.

Sikhs are not different. Sikhs do not worship stones but they build Gurudwaras, their worship places, with marble.

Idols are worshiped till God is realized. Un till God reveals HIM before Jeevs, human beings know only idols and worship those.

Also, God realized persons do not start hating idols. 

I am not sure if you can find a true Sikh hating idols.


Balbir Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Apr 17, 2006)

Gurfateh

Dear Brother Balber Singh Ji,

when idols become a sort wrong thing coming in and that too going against the main holy books say Vedas.

And making followers weaker due to division in socity.Better is to remove them.

I past idols of demi God divided Hindu socity and even some people due to thier so called lower birth wre not allowed to conme to places where such idols were kept.

This lead to their loss of faith in thier own community and they helped the invaders.

so to unit image of God ie Humans it was better to remove idols.Even in Sikh Gurudwaras like Darbar Sahib idols were thier.
1. As mark of thier showing as servent of Guru Granth Sahib.
2. As a thing to attract Hindus away from Brahmins.
3. But most probealbey to protect Idols from inavder who use to break them.
4.Foruth could be Gift from Hindus as what they liked to be best from thier side to Guru.


But later due to these idols,lower castes were not allowed in Darbar Sahib.So when  Idols were removed along the Mahant Gandhi Ji  termed as first victory of indipendance only keeping in mind the upliftment of untouchables.

Ironly is that at present we still have differnat Gurudwara for differnt Castes mmore in Punjab or in west.


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## hps62 (Apr 17, 2006)

Dear brother 

you have  got it all wrong.

Sikh way says

Satnam karta purk nirbho and  *nirvaar.*

So we hate or harbour enemity to no one . 

A hindoo  is close to our heart as  he is also a manifestation of god ttoo.
we are  the messenger  of  love and peace .

love

hps62


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 17, 2006)

Satsriakal to all and Vijaydeep Singh Ji!

Have the Gurus ever suggested us to remove idols from our temple or anybody's else?

You wrote "I past idols of demi God divided Hindu socity and even some people due to thier so called lower birth wre not allowed to conme to places where such idols were kept."

The same is with the Sikhs these days. There was news few days back that Sikhs took away Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji from a village because people were not able to respect Him as they wanted. Apart from this they blamed that cigarettes were lying on the floor around the holy Guru.

It was surprising why these persons did not demonstrate the respect for the Guru by cleaning the floor instead of removing HIM and make those villagers feel of belonging to lower caste among Sikhs.

It would be great and wonder when someone can sweep ignorance by removing idols.

The world is full of idol worshipers.

Is a Sikh to spend life in controlling and stopping idol worship?

In my view, ignorance vanishes by true Simran alone.

**************

Strange is that Hindu Scriptures often mention God beyond Maya. Still, many of them have become worshipers of sculptures made of stones.

Strange is that Sikh Scriptures often mention God beyond Maya. Still, many of them have become worshipers of sculptures made of paper.

**************

The Gurus sang. All movements are God's Aartee. O God! Aartee takes place as you like it.

Today Sikhs give Hindus a wry smile because they do Aartee with lamps, flowers, etc. in hands.

And Hindus give Sikhs a dry smile because they do Aartee with Harmonium, Tabla etc. in hands,



Balbir Singh


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## Manmohan Singh Vijan (Apr 17, 2006)

Dear Friends,

_Gurfateh!_

We Sikhs ourselves call _Bani_ as _"Sarab Sanjhi Babi"._ That would inply that _Bani _is for everyone *unconditionally*. Who are we Sikhs to treat _Bani_ as our property? Who are we to stop anyone to approach Guru Granth Saheb and enjoy the _Ras_ of Bani?

We should let those who we consider sinners by our own standards to benefit form the greatest gift to manking - _"Sarab Sanjhi Bani",_ and save themselves form the consequences of their sins.

Sikhs are known to have a 40" heart even in a 36" chest. Why not we show this to the world? Let there be more _Bani_ readers in this world. It will be the best weapon to fight terroriats.

I request you all to carry this debate forward. It does not matter if you do not agree with me or others. We should let all streams of ideas to flow freely. Like open windows.

Guru Nanak would love that!

Your _sevadaar,_

Manmohan.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Apr 17, 2006)

hps62 said:
			
		

> Dear brother
> 
> you have got it all wrong.
> 
> ...


 

Gurfateh

Dear Bro!

Niether Das nor Sikh Gurus had any sort of enimity towards anyone.

And Idol worshiper can be spritualminded and can get salvaged by mercy of Akal and say who hate Idol can have life like hell.

Say Wahabis,Arya Samajis and our own puresist of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

But thin here is that does this ritaul caused or causes any problem with social and political thing.Answer is YES.

when Somanth was looted ,instead of figthing people just kept bowing to idol and result was not OK.

So when Gurus preached Akal worship over idolatory ,it was good for idolworshipper to protect them and it was as per Vedic anf Vedanic and semitic books.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Apr 17, 2006)

Balbir Singh said:
			
		

> Satsriakal to all and Vijaydeep Singh Ji!
> 
> Have the Gurus ever suggested us to remove idols from our temple or anybody's else?
> 
> ...


 
Gurfateh
what Tenth Guru thought about idol worshipping can be seen from Triya Charitat 266 or say 405ned at Chaupayee Sahib.Or say Jaffernammah,where Guru calls himslef a idol breaker.


But even in Tau Prasad Swaye of Akal Ustat at end we repeat as Guru said.

Some one worship idols.some one runs to worship dead,they all run for filthy act and do not get the end of Sir Lord(God).

When we are to bow to Guru Panth or Guru Granth as a rule when our forehead touches ground we need to keep God in our mind and no object,no man dead or alive,no image and no thing which is made say a scriputre also.

Same is told while we are told to do Naam Abhyas.


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 18, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Stone is an earthy material. It does not matter if someone rejects sculptures made of stone but starts worshiping another earthy material, for example iron or things made of iron. He remains attached with earth.

Knowing earthy materials through senses alone is not the complete wisdom of God.

Knowing God is realizing HIM in all matters and HIS presence beyond it.

In my view, the translation "they were idol-worshippers and I am idol-breaker" of the Guru's Verse is not correct.

Gurdev never broke any idol. 

Gurdev is explaining here to transcend idols and not to identify oneself with the idols.

**************

Dear Vijaydeep Singh Ji!

You wrote "When we are to bow to Guru Panth or Guru Granth as a rule when our forehead touches ground we need to keep God in our mind and no object,no man dead or alive,no image and no thing which is made say a scriputre also."

May I ask why one bows to Guru Panth or Guru Granth when there is no object, no man dead or live, no image and no thing which are made say  scripture also?

It is surprising that a person does not have any scripture in mind but he needs Guru Panth or Guru Granth outside to bow.


Balbir Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Apr 19, 2006)

Gurfateh

For Das Guru Panth or Guru Granth are nothing else but Gurbar Akal.In fact when das bows it may not be possbile often that a Sikh or Guru Granth Sahib Ji are verly there.
In Naam Abhyas,it is time and aginsed told to keep that one only in mind who has no form as in all form.Read Akalustat and we can get it as mannual there to how to operate the whole machine ie our Body to meditate.

If we keep some thing formed i our mind we may be reborn as the same but if we keep formless by the mercy of the same we will be like the same.

Das did tell once his Taksali friend that if some one does worship Guru Nanak,then he/she will be rebron as Khalsa but by mercy of Akal,worship of Akal only can lead to salvation.Akal only can salvage others also.


Coming to fact that Guru tells in 266 Triya Charitar about our God,who when ever we think,where ever we think with full attention.,That God is present.

There Princes break the Saligram or lingum on the head of Pandit and another thing she drwans in water.


Guru did calimed himself to be idol breaker and Sevadas Udaisis says that he told Aurangzeb(Rahmat UlAllhe) to rember that if He breaks one idol,idolatorrs will make more iodls of dough,Clay,wood,metal or other thing.Real idol is ego.My Khalsa will break the same ego.
Then question arise how ego reamins with idolator.

Das just wants to qoute from Holy Veda is God has no image.

So if we imagine god and feel that in stone or say book or say picture of Guru Maharaj,that object is created or found by man.Even in Idols life is enthused via Par Partista.

We deem that thing as creator and we serve that(Das did idol worshipping for about 10 years).We may rough shot the creation as we think that creaotr is under our contraol as we feed it,drees it etc.We may find ourself above creaotr and may find creation lower to us and may exploit or not serve the creration.


But when we find creator in creation,we find ourself nothing in front of that infinty,we have reseprct for creation as a whole and we serve creation but know that Creator is being served but after knowing ourself to be a mrere creation we find that we are also nothing but creator is doing all and we are not even capable to serve or worship.Ego ends by mercy of Akal.

Forgive Das if wrong is writtan.But Gurmat does says that from some tohr book that Kaliyug has something bad called idolatory.


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 19, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Duality does not exist from God's View.

Realizing duality is the illusory view of ignorance.

**************

God produces stones, earthy material, and human beings. 

Human beings produce sculptures of stones and Gods.


Balbir Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Apr 19, 2006)

Gurfateh

God does causes dulity in us evewn if we just know but do not realise the truth which is God only.

Anyway as per Sevadas after tellling that ego is real idol does Guru told that may Khalsa will destroy all the idols.

Thing to rember is that some people may know truth just for the sake of knowldge but are yet to relaie the same.

While some say that living Guru,Dead peer(Muslim holy men) or Idol or image of demigod or deity is must to get concnetration or Dhyana.

For them as per will of Akal this could be OK,But so far they have not kept the Formless or one within all form in mind and did Dhyan of the same.

Has das not see the sea and saw only well then das has no right to say that well must be water only.

It is not neccasary that we need any created(by nature or Man) object to have Dhyan(concentration of mind) on Akal.If Akal wishes by perfect Dhyan over Akal we get one with Akal,Dhyan on Akal does comes to us.

Akal Bless.


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 20, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Quote >>>It is not neccasary that we need any created(by nature or Man) object to have Dhyan(concentration of mind) on Akal. <<<

Why do Sikhs need Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or the Gurus to have Dhyan on Akal?

Quote >>>If Akal wishes by perfect Dhyan over Akal we get one with Akal,Dhyan on Akal does comes to us. <<<

Since long, people are waiting to see God wishing. Does God exists only in future?


Balbir Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Apr 21, 2006)

Gurfateh

It is our Duja Bhav or dwait Bhav or concept of duality when we say that Guru Granth Sahib Ji or Guru are some entitieys other then Akal.

In fact faith is the reasson for the appearance of the Gurus and Guru Granth.


God is omini visible and Guru Granth Sahib Ji has writtan in it,It is visible,this thing is realsised by grace of one who wants to be omin visible.Term here is Nadir Karam or Mecry of getting visible.

God only was in Past,God noly is persent and God only in futrue.Omega and Alfa,which is ,Which was and which is to come.

when Akal wants we have Dhyan of Akal and Akal does it all.Did Guru Nanak had any Guru no but Sabad Guru.Same could be said for Dhanna,God is adressed s his Guru andhimself as Sikh as unto one verse on St Kabir in Guru Granth Sahib JI.

Gurus are wave of acean called Akal and same is the case with Guru granth Sahib Ji.

But when we do Pran Pratishta or putting life in idol a sort of cermony of Hindus to install diety,Das thinks we give life to a god there.

When we say a picture of Guru or say living Guru or say Guru Granth Sahib Ji are object of worship and an entity ,it is term called Shirk(equlvanaltn to Duja Bhav in Islam) as no thing exsit beside God.No one beside thee(Holy Bible),all visibe is God(Holy Upnishads).

Akal made us follow,Worship of Akal,Preacihng of Word and visson of Khalsa.

whay you write or think or what Das replies is from Akal.By will of Akal does an idolator worship idols or say someone tink living Guru as an entity or even worship Guru Granth Sahib Ji like an idol.Or say worship holy Kabba or say cross.

But by mercy of Akal does a stage as infomred in Guru Granth Sahib Ji is reached when all worshipped things are seen in all objetcs wroung.But such can happen without reading etc. also as King Janak just realsied the truth on keeping foot on saddle.


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 21, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Quote >>>But when we do Pran Pratishta or putting life in idol a sort of cermony of Hindus to install diety,Das thinks we give life to a god there. <<<

God has already established (pratishthit) life energy (Prana) in all that exists also in idols. The illusion of a Brahmin would be to establish Prana in an idol.

The virtues of the Vaaks from Gurdev do not depend on our valuations.

Quote >>>whay you write or think or what Das replies is from Akal.By will of Akal does an idolator worship idols or say someone tink living Guru as an entity or even worship Guru Granth Sahib Ji like an idol.Or say worship holy Kabba or say cross. <<<

Realizing this, questions like 'Hindu Aarti In Gurdwara' disappears. Only God's Aartee remains in tact and that also not only in Gurdwaras.

Quote >>>But by mercy of Akal does a stage as infomred in Guru Granth Sahib Ji is reached when all worshipped things are seen in all objetcs wroung.But such can happen without reading etc. also as King Janak just realsied the truth on keeping foot on saddle. <<<

I hope people do not start a new religion by imitating Janak and adopting a ritual of keeping a foot on a saddle.


Balbir Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Apr 21, 2006)

Gurfateh
people may do that ie Saddal with Raja Janak.

As we see that in Kalki Avtar Guru tells that more Kaliyuga gets stronger,We have new religeon in proaximatly each day and that will also surivive only for few hours.
In Kaliyuga we will see more idols in futre and more living Gurus who may try to divide humans.In the case of idols,its worshipper will make some camp.

but being A Khalsa one with Akal,like Akal we will be free from time or era and in us Akal can change the era.Four Yugas are for those who worship or have faith in one who are limited by time but our God is timeless.Our guru is timeless.


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## ceo_nikka (May 8, 2006)

I fully agreee with you brother.
I had similar experience at Takhat Shri Hazoor Sahib. Though I must mention that the whole experience at Shri Hazoor Sahib was quite emotionally enriching.
However this episode, where Poojari Ji was performing aarti with Big Thaal and divas. And then everybody rushing for the Thal. Poojari putting Tikka on foreheads. And then when Poojari is leaving everybody is falling to his feet in presence of Shri Guru Granth Sahib, was quite against my understanding of Sikhi.
Thats my very personal view. May be somebody more knowledgeable  
can correct my views.
I have heard similar aarti happens at Shri Patna Sahib. I assume it due to there bramanic influence. Not sure.

Gurfateh
Mandeep Singh


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## gs_chana (May 8, 2006)

ceo_nikka said:
			
		

> I fully agreee with you brother.
> I had similar experience at Takhat Shri Hazoor Sahib. Though I must mention that the whole experience at Shri Hazoor Sahib was quite emotionally enriching.
> However this episode, where Poojari Ji was performing aarti with Big Thaal and divas. And then everybody rushing for the Thal. Poojari putting Tikka on foreheads. And then when Poojari is leaving everybody is falling to his feet in presence of Shri Guru Granth Sahib, was quite against my understanding of Sikhi.
> Thats my very personal view. May be somebody more knowledgeable
> ...


 
Well I thank God that some people see the light as it were. I am surprised how this post has turned into pages and pages of unrelated matter...lolz...very typical of us I suppose...cant face up to a fact and then have to go on a tangent to hide it all. 

People go that the reason why this type of aarti was conducted was for Hindus to come into the Gurdwara Sahib and do their rituals whilst they were under siege by the Moguls...

WELL ARE THERE ANY MOGHULS NOW??

Look...I aint anti-Hindu...but you the sangat know very well that Guruji has acknowledge idol worshipping as being STRICTLY FORBIDDEN...

So, sure we may have done it out of compassion all those centuries ago...but times have changed...our people are being sucked into their empty rituals...because I tell you...GURU GRANTH IS FOR READING...UNDERSTANDING GURUJIs MESSAGE...APPLYING IT TO YOUR LIFE...THEN LIVING A LIFE WHICH WILL MAKE YOU A GURMUKH (god centered person) WHO WILL ATTAIN MUKTEE (salvation. liberation of the soul/what ever you may call it). 

BUT WHEN WE CONDUCT THESE EMPTY RITUALS OF CIRCULING Divas...etc..around our GURUJI...we are disobeying GURUJI...because Guruji Explains...NAAM TERO AARTI...NAAM PHOOL MALA...etc..NAAM IS EVERYTHING...IF YOU WISH TO DO POOJA...DO POOJA OF GOD...HOW?? MEDITATION/SIMRAN...ALWAYS..HAR HAR...and although I cannot be said to be a saint...I AM TRYING...and so must others...I AM TRYING TO GO ON THE PATH OF RITEOUSNESS...(sacha marag)...WHICH IS BASICALY THE TRUE SIKHI WAY...NOT THE BRAHMIN WAY or ANY OTHER MISUNDERSTOOD WAY.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say...and please...more discussion as to how we should stop this rather than discussion as to irrelevant matter...NOT SAYING EVERYTHING ON THIS POST HAS BEEN IRRELVANT...IT HAS BEEN VERY INSPIRING TO SEE WHAT THE SANGAT HAVE TO SAY...but please...share you views as to how to remove such evils from our BEAUTIFUL SIKHI...remember...SIKHI IS FINE...THE WAY WE PRACTICE IT HAS GONE SOMEWHAT WRONG...WAKE UP YOUR MINDS...WAKE UP BEFORE ITS TOO LATE

Sorry for any offence or mistakes

Gurdip Singh Chana


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## Archived_member2 (May 9, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

It is strange that people go on translating Guru's message.

Can we translate Truth?

A translation is another opinion. It leads to duality.

**************

We may understand the Guru's words "NAAM TERO AARTEE...NAAM PHOOL MALA" differently when consciousness grows. For example, "NAAM TERO AARTEE" means your Aartee is Name. Gurudev did not sing "TERO NAAM AARTEE."

Enlivening this state is again THE Truth.

**************

God is not available by doing Aartee or rejecting it.

God is recognizing HIS Will in all activities.


Balbir Singh


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## gs_chana (May 9, 2006)

Balbir Singh said:
			
		

> Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
> 
> It is strange that people go on translating Guru's message.
> 
> ...



WJKWJF

I understand you point that but the thing is why do we keep coming back to this point you have mentioned. Are you justiying ritual worship...APPLY COMMON SENSE...you can see that they do such rituals to GURUJI's shastars and guru granth...IS THAT REASONABLE?? IS THAT JUSTIFIED??


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## Archived_member2 (May 9, 2006)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Quote ". . . you can see that they do such rituals to GURUJI's shastars and guru granth...IS THAT REASONABLE?? IS THAT JUSTIFIED??"

The Guru says "hukmai andar sabh ko baahar hukam na ko-ay. " SGGS Ang 1
All is within His Command. No one is beyond His Command.


Balbir Singh


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## petersg (Aug 28, 2006)

Dear Sadh Sangat Ji,

WJKK, WJKF

In Singapore, we have many Sikhs and Sindhis coming to the Gurdwara. The Sindhis who sometimes  sponsor the event in the Gurdwara will normally culminate the programme with an Aarti which is done the "Hindu" way. So what should we do? Do we stop them?
If we ban the event, the Sindhis will just stop coming to the Gurdwara and there is a wedge driven between the Sikhs and the Sindhis. Is this the Sikhi way? At least now they come to the Gurdwara and there is brotherhood between the Sikhs and the Sindhis.

My opinion only. Best regards,
petersg


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## roopsidhu (Aug 28, 2006)

Dear brothers
Sat sri Akaal
First of all we should try to understand that what the message of gurbani about the aarti is. Sri guru Nanak dev ji's bani says
"Gagan meh thaal ravi chand deepak bane tarika mandal jamnak moti........."
As per Sikh history this bani was recited by guru ji after watching the ritual aarti being performed at Jagannath mandir. This bani in Dhanasari raga is all in praise of the great aarti being performed by the nature (sky being thaal and sun and moon being lamps) The great specialty of the gurbani is that it teaches us to keep away from rituals and to pray for the greatest of all "akaal purkh".
SGGS ang 694 "Nam tero aarti majan murarey,Hark e naam bin jhutey sagal pasarey"
Also tells us that  all the rituals are false only lord's name is true. His name is Deepak, his name is flower his name is kesar his name is chandan etc. Hence if you meditate and worship his name that is the best aarti. Gurbani teaches us to  find the great lord from within our heart . Gurbani teaches us the shortest way to achieve the lord. Gurbani always teaches us to keep away from the rituals (aadambras) let it be aarti or idol worship. See SGGS ang 695 "uttam deeara nirmal bati, tu hi niranjan kamalapati"  Here again its stressed that only the true name of the lord is " uttam deeara" i.e. gurbani message revolves around the main principal of Naam Simran and keeping away from karam kaands. SGGS ang 1350 Kabir ji says " tat tayl naam kee-aa baatee deepak dayh uj-yaaraa jot laa-ay jagdees jagaa-i-aa boojhai boojhanhaaraa . panchay sabad anaahad baajay sangay saringpaanee, kabeer daas tayree aartee keenee nirankaar nirbaanee.
Means: With the oil of knowledge about the essence of reality, and the wick of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, this lamp illuminates. My body have applied the Light of the Lord, and lit this lamp. The Unstuck Melody of the Panch Shabad, the Five Primal Sounds, vibrates and resounds. I dwell with the Lord of the World, Kabeer, Your slave, performs this Aartee, From this shabad its very clear that the aarti sung by the Gurus or the Bhagats was not the one with artificial lamps or plates etc they used the wick of the naam and the oil of the knowledge to perform the aarti. Hence all these rituals are against the prime theme of the gurbani. 
But anyhow we can not and we should not condemn others (Hindus) ways of the aarti as well. As per their religious belief that is the right practice and they must follow that. But for those who claim to be Sikhs or the followers of SGGS ji (gurbani) it becomes their duty to follow the instructions and teaching of gurbani to keep away from karam kaands and as per gurbani  performing aarti with lamps flowers etc is one of those karam kaands.
Bhul chuk maaf​


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## kaur-1 (Oct 11, 2006)

petersg said:


> Dear Sadh Sangat Ji,
> 
> WJKK, WJKF
> 
> ...



Ya! "Hindu" way arti SHOULD *NOT* BE DONE IN A GURDWARA. 

Whats the matter with the sangat in that particular Singaporean Gurdwara?

*ARE YOU ALL DRACKAL (cowards). 
SO WHAT if the Sindhi's stop coming. WHAT THE HACK IS WRONG WITH YOU LOT!!. Why do you "KOWTOY" to them. *

YOU SHOULD BE SAYING TO THEM, please practice in a Gurdwara according to Gurmat and follow the Gurdwara protocols.

If you are a Sikh then I sincerely hope you say something to the gurdwara commity or directly to them. *WE ARE NOT COWARDS. What does "SINGH" stand for?*

Next you will allowing them to slaughter halal meat in a Gurdwara! Whats the matter with you lot.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 12, 2006)

Gurfateh

There are twa Takhats,where Arti is done and many other Gurudwaras where such Arti is done.But in no Gurudwara,we see Halal been done on Animal.

Anyway some people even doubt the concept of Arti.Das can recomend that three types of views can exist in same Gurudwara.

1.Arti with lamps etc. Das say lamps etc are not much realvant but more show.
2.Arti with music only.
3.No Arti done as all.

Say Hindus put garland to felow Hindus so Sikhs must not stop this.Or say if Hindu use Tabla or Dholak in thier prayers,we should not use it.Everthing can not be seen in anti Hindu way but rather what is as per Gurmat.


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## Jaszwant (Dec 25, 2006)

Well, I think the issue raised is a mere waste of time and rubbish in itself rather than accusing whatever practices as rubbish. Yes, I do agree that its indirectly promoting hatred more than love & compassion. At the end-of-the day, we all have a choice, and choice is to either just ignore and quietly depart or partake in the event or merely observe it in silenceif you just do not wish to be part of it. Afterall, how does it affect your personal beliefs. 

At least we are not like the Muslims/Malays in Malaysia where the Muslims are strictly prohibited to undertake or participate in any event that the religious leaders THINK is unislamic or even go to the extent of ruling on how th Muslim should behave, act etc. That is not freedom. That is not being flexible. In the end, whatever we do, our actions will speak for it self before GoD. Its not for us to argue about something, to stop someone fom doing something that they want to do etc, as long as its not a criminal offence, as long as it does not injure someone. We all must just continue to live life, and learn from all arounf for ourselves, to be a better person and to serve all irregardless of race, religion, sex whatever. We are afterall brothers and sisters, Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, Animistic, Aethist or Sikh or whatever one wishes to profess.

So let's end this unnecessary argument on what is right and what is wrong, let the age old practices go on in peace, and we as bystanders merely observe it if we think its not right to partcipate in it.

Wishing everyone a Merry X'Mas & a Wonderfull Blessed New Year.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh!


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## beantparmar (Jan 2, 2007)

I am a Hindu . But I agree with you. We should not let the teachings of GURU NANAK DEV JI  go waste and dilute sikhism. Since we are on the issue I also request you to raise your voice against fradulent conversion of sikhs to christianity in punjab. Also please raise your voice against rampant castism in sikhism particularly amongst the Jat sikhs. Warm regards and Jai Hind


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## jmanhas (Mar 12, 2007)

Sat Sri Akal all,

In my opinion, the argument seems to be more on ritual practise than religion!!! Sikhism is a tolerant religion, and allows 'free will', so long as it does not harm or obstruct another interest.

In the true essence, "aartee" is praising / chanting gods name (acceptable as per Sikh tradition). Depending on the regions, or the gathering -- it may be done alongwith other practises like burning incense sticks, lighting a diya, holding a thali...!

Different people have different needs, evolved beings manage "Dhyan" or associating with the Universal Primordial energies without any external stimulants - while others need music, drumbells, agarbattis, etc. 

Slotting traditions as Hindu / Sikh -- and condoning them,  fails Sikh practise. As an offshoot of Hinduism, and a religion that is based on the principles or the best practises of older religions - there would be rituals that overlap, of flow into one another.

Many Sikhs come from a 'mixed' clan of people - Hindu/ Sikh parentage. There are many other practises for instance, like burning candles on Diwali day at Indian gurudwaras (more a catholic tradition). Rituals may influence beliefs, but they cannot change the base philosophy!!

Rgrds
Jay


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## jmanhas (Mar 12, 2007)

jmanhas said:


> Sat Sri Akal all,
> 
> In my opinion, the argument seems to be more on ritual practise than religion!!! Sikhism is a tolerant religion, and allows 'free will', so long as it does not harm or obstruct another interest.
> 
> ...


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## beantparmar (Mar 13, 2007)

I agree with Mr Manhas. This is a very balanced veiw. Rituals are only external attributes of religions. At a deeper level all religions are basically same


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## BhagatSingh (Mar 13, 2007)

which is why sikhi doesnt have rituals so ppl can concentrate on naam. BTW sikhism is not a offshoot of hinduism.


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## Beeba (May 8, 2007)

FireStorm said:


> I absolutely do not agree or support the views of Balbir Singh Ji or Vijaydeep Singh Ji.
> 
> These things ought to be nipped in the bud, or they will give rise to fuller problems. Tommorow people may even start doing Havan.
> This is exactly what is happening now, with people taking a swip at the Thaali and then putting it to their face,
> ...


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## vinod (May 14, 2007)

I think the point raised is about Keshgarh Sahib. I would be free to presume that it would be under the contol of SGPC. If it being so ,let SGC loook into it. Why don't you send your petition to them.If the management is different thae you may put across a word of objection.
Both Gurudwaras and temples are the places that remind us of heavinly presence of Divine, that is all.There is nothing more than this.
But I thought tat sikhs are religiously tolerant. 
If it is against your faith I have seen Gurudwars all lit with candle lights on the occassions of many guru parva. What is so wrong in this. you can express your state of joy. That is the only spirit.


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## sarabjit (Jul 2, 2007)

dear respectable members
loving sat sri akal 
whai i feel is that we should not criticise any religion in these columns
it will not take us any where
all religions are good & if you start discussing their rituals then you can find 
many points which may be not convincing to your mind but when you start
discussing these with their leaders they will convince you scientifically .even people may start criticising our religion as so many friends have mentioned in their views about using airconditoning for guru granth sahibs perfumes in harmandir sahib, using expensive rumalas & golden jewellery etc .if some body finds happiness doing all this then what is the harm.sky is not going to fall. instead of criticising others it will be better if we look towards ourselves for oue weaknesses like drinking liquers , taking drugs , doing cheating in business, destoying girl foetus etc. there are so many.

god is the thought of conviction only & faith.rituals just increase your faith & self confidence 7 will power.
if you are good to your society , your nation,helping poor,honest to your job
and happy & satisfied in your daily life then god is with you
orthodoxy will not take us anywhere
with warm regards to all the members
sarabjit ingh


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 5, 2007)

Beeba said:


> FireStorm said:
> 
> 
> > I absolutely do not agree or support the views of Balbir Singh Ji or Vijaydeep Singh Ji.
> ...


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## deepshoker (Jul 24, 2007)

respected balbir singh ji,
                                 it is very sorry feelings that you call yourself sewadar and dont excactly follow bani and preaching of all gurus by making ur explanation with evidence from what was happening in past does not prove wrong doings correct  either it is aarti , doin dhoops to pictures , placing nariyal , placing water during akhand path and drinking as amrit etc etc ...  these are  manmats and will remain inspite of giving thousands of example from past.


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## LikkleMissHindu (Aug 9, 2007)

gs_chana eventhough you aren't being offensive to Hindu's I myself am a Hindu and do find the way you have expressed your feelings offensive. For a believer of faith to minimalise another faith or even its rituals I find offensive.

Balbir Singh I have the upmost respect for your words. Hindu  or Sikh  I understand historically we fought together and in my opinion we share one thing in common and that is Hindustan.

Going back to the original post here is a logical explaination of why Hindu's perform a ritual such as arti this is soemthing I found very enlightening.

May I also add religions have progressed from one another and the closest linked ones are Buddhism, Hinduism and Sikhism. You should never dismiss your guru's teaching but never dismiss what your religion may have gained from another either. I may be off the point here if so I apoloigise in advance. I hope you enjoy my explaination as follows.

Having worshipped the Lord with love, lit by the lamp we see the beauty of  the Lord in all his glory. The singing, clapping is associated with the joy that accompanies the vision of the Lord. (The Lord can be your own perception of spiritualism).

   Aarti being performed with Camphor has a spiritual significance. Camphor burns itself out completely without leaving a trace. Camphor represents our Vasanas, unmanifest desires. So also if we were to take refuge in the Lord, obtain knowledge, these desires will get burnt out. Although the camphor burns itself out, it emits a nice perfume. On a human plane it means that we should sacrifice ourselves to serve society, in the process spread the perfume of love and happiness to all. (Something gs_chana's post doesn't do)



 We close our eyes while performing the Aarti as if to look within. The Self or Atman is within us. . Self realization can be achieved by knowing thyself, with the flame of knowledge. At the end of the aarti we place the hands over the flame and touch our eyes and top of the head. It means that may the light that illumined the Lord light up my vision, may my thoughts be pure and beautiful.


 With the Aarti comes the flame which signifies light. There can be light in our lives only if we have knowledge. In an era of darkness there would be ignorance, we would be perpetually running to fulfill our vasanas resulting in unhappiness and stress all around.



I hope as a Hindu that has clarified the aarti from our, sorry my perspective. Cannot speak for all HIndu's.


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## Arvind (Aug 9, 2007)

Above is a nice explanation of Aarti. But the question is: How many of our Hindu brothers and sisters really understand this concept and abide by this, while performing Aarti. when something is done without an understanding, it becomes a ritual... useless ritual. I am talking this in the same note in which our sikh brothers and sisters do "matha tek" in gurudwara without realizing its significance. That again makes the "matha tek" look like a useless ritual. Important is to understand why we are doing something, and how it should be done in a proper way.

Regards, Arvind.


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## GURVINDER (Aug 13, 2007)

Don;t Point Finger On Any Religion What Are Your Views About The Gurbani Recited Daily In  The Gurudwaras And People Not Even Try To Listen Carefully See There Are Traditions Which They Follow U R Right That They  R  Using Thaal And Divaa And Do Aarti But Thise Aarti Is Not Same As Hindu Religion Aarti It Is Misconception The Aarti They Do Is Ofor One Yniversal God


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## gs_chana (Sep 24, 2007)

LikkleMissHindu said:


> gs_chana eventhough you aren't being offensive to Hindu's I myself am a Hindu and do find the way you have expressed your feelings offensive. For a believer of faith to minimalise another faith or even its rituals I find offensive.
> 
> Balbir Singh I have the upmost respect for your words. Hindu or Sikh I understand historically we fought together and in my opinion we share one thing in common and that is Hindustan.
> 
> ...


 
HI there, 

Well I may have written the article in a little offensive way so I apologise, but I still do not accept your view on what Aarti is about. Not in a negative way, but rather I think applying it logically with a better understanding of what GOD is, you will realise how and why such worldy matters (now this includes idol worship, fasting, namaz (islamic prayers), staying virgin in a convent, etc as well as the issue here about Aarti) ARE AIMLESS PRACTICES. 

I will refrain from using USELESS, but rather to get you thinking I will use AIMLESS PRACTICES. God is not a visible being, is not a being you can just talk to with the physical. "LikkleMissHindu" you say that when doing aarti you take contemplation on the within, i.e. talk to GOD from within, then as far as I am concerned YOU ARE ABSOLUTLY RIGHT. The only way in which GOD can be communicated with is the Mind, hence meditation. Sikhi does not offer prayer to GOD!! WHERE HAS IT EVER DONE SO, GIVE ME A QUOTE IN THE GURU GRANTH SAHIB THAT SAYS WE ACTUALLY HAVE TO SING OUT LOUD TO GOD! 

Anyway back to the matter at hand, LikkleMissHindu should realise that I have nothing against Hinduism, infact Hindu texts teach the same message of contemplation on God rather than fictionalised stories made by man on how to communicate with God. LikkleMissHindu please go give me some quotes from books such as the Vedas, Shastras, Simrities, etc that believe in such practices as you hindus follow daily. 

Learn about GOD furthermore LikkleMissHindu from your text books, and you shall realise how to be a true Hindu. Remember, all the demi-gods (ram, krishna, etc) all preached about GOD, so do likewise and you will realise what I mean by how such acts are outdated and ignorant; simply because they are not compatable with a logical belief of GOD. 

Hope that makes sense, probably doesn't, but hey, thats life. :}{}{}:

Gurdip Singh Chana


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## GURVINDER (Sep 25, 2007)

Thise Aari,havan,vrat Are Called Karamkands Thise May Lead To Hipocracy Because If Your  Mind Is Not Pure Then What Is The Need To Do Thise Kind Of Hipocracy


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## mkd (Oct 29, 2007)

wjkk wjkf
guys why are we goinn soo farr donnt u guys remmeber the sakhi of guru nanak dev ji where he condemned the aarti happening in a mandir... 
gagan mai thal rav chand deepak baney.
the sky is the thaal and the sun, moon ann stars are the deevey... 
we have the answer in guru granth sahib ji den y are we mislead..
i agree that w.e is happening in sri hajoor sahib is totally wrong it shudnn happen because guru sahib has told us bout the "real aarti" that happens by itself anyways..

sorry if i sed anything rong.. correct me plzz


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## harsimiritkaur (Nov 25, 2007)

Next time I see Hindu Artee in a gurdwara, I will blow a shanda, Hindu shell and say "Namastee", welcome to a pakandi mandar disguised as gurdwara sahib.  Village people are not educated and they follow pakandi saints sponsored by the Indian government. They rape women as well and commit murder on anyone who squeals on them.


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## Beeba (Nov 26, 2007)

mkd said:


> wjkk wjkf
> guys why are we goinn soo farr donnt u guys remmeber the sakhi of guru nanak dev ji where he condemned the aarti happening in a mandir...
> gagan mai thal rav chand deepak baney.
> the sky is the thaal and the sun, moon ann stars are the deevey...
> ...


 
Hey, Can you tell me where I can find this sakhi? or if you know it, then tell me what Guru Nanak Dev Ji said word per word, thanks!
-Beeba


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## Astroboy (Nov 27, 2007)

If I had my ways, I would run a Gurdwara which has on its grounds smaller altars for every faith to come to the gurdwara grounds and worship their own way. This is wishful thinking only because there's no way I will be able to convince people that our rituals and ceremonies are only earthly in nature.


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## GURVINDER (Nov 27, 2007)

Bhai Saaab Arti Is Performed By Reciting The Hymes Of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Who R We To Decide Whether It Is Wrong Or Right


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## harharikaur (Dec 23, 2007)

Wahe Guru Ji Kar Khalsa Wahe guru Ji Ki Fateh

Thank you for your knowledge and understanding on this subject. As a European sikh, I understand that the essential flavour of sikhism needs to be maintained, but that, for me,  Nanak's essential message was to recognise the god in all, serve  all, love all, and your reply puts this back into the picture. 
Forgive me, but I do not understand all that you say. Please hep me. What does it mean when you say "as Hindu do Arti of their demi gods so we must not do our Arti of Akal". A ceremony which connects us to the undying would be welcome, no? Please accept my ignorance, i come to Sikhism beyond any upbringing or knowledge, just was pulled here by by heart, and i have no wish to offend, none. If i have misunderstood you, please accept my apologies.

Bless
Har Hari Kaur


vijaydeep Singh said:


> Gurfateh
> 
> Well Hindus also wear turban and Muslims also keep beared so we must not have that.
> 
> ...


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## mehar singh (Jan 29, 2008)

Sat Sri Akal to everyone,
this is my first post so very sorry if i offend anyone. This is my reply to Mr Channa who is said to be horrified by seeing 'Aarti' being performed at the holy Gurudwara at Hazur Sahib. *DELETED*DO NOT MAKE PERSONAL REMARKS.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj have quoted " Gagn main Thaal Rav Chand Deepak Baney, Taarika Mandal Janak Moti". The sacred Aarti Bani is written in Our Living Guru, SGGS Ji. If you have a problem with Sikhism having Hindu Rituals then please please tell me, Why did shri Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji, our beloved ninth Guru, give up their live to protect Hinduism with the pleas of the Pandits? In the SGGS ji, there are numerous banis writtten in Praise of Lord Krishna, many great Bhagats, even Laila Majnu! 
My advice to you is, PLEASE do your research thoroughly and know your living Guru and religion before daring to point out your finger at Sacred Gurudwaras such as Thakat Sachkhand Sri Hazur Sahib, for doing Aarti. 
Also, ***PERSONAL REMARK DELETED***** Please read Gurbani and understand it!


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## Astroboy (Jan 29, 2008)

Mehar Singh ji,

Welcome to SPN. Your queries could be genuine but _you gave me quite a turn. _
_First you mention _

........he would *do his research* about our glorious Sikh religion before saying such silly and childish comments. 

*After which you comment:*
The sacred Aarti Bani is written in Our Living Guru, SGGS Ji. If you have a problem with Sikhism having Hindu Rituals 
* 
Tell me Mehar Singh, why do you mix up Hindu Arti with Sikh Arti ?

*


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## Harkishansingh (Mar 18, 2008)

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh As u say that in hazur sahib the hindu maat is aaarti was done  did u know that in this takhat sahib old maryada was running by panj payare bhai daya singh  & bhai dharam singh ji & here the tenth guru gobind singh ji Always hajar najar (present) & we do the the aarti of guru gobind singh ji & guru granth sahib ji As akkal purakh we dont do the aarti of any hindu god  or murti  pls dont tell that this is hindu matt here in hazur sahib purtan maryada of guru gobind singh ji maharaj was running from guruji time no one can change this maryada & this maryada was running in every takhat sahib in ancient time .
Gurdip Chana[/quote]


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## spnadmin (Mar 18, 2008)

This link may address some of the issues raised so far. It contains the sakhi of Guru Nanak and the Hindu arti. It also presents one of the shabads where Nanak's hymn spells the difference between Hindu aarti and Sikh aarti. The sakhi gives the background for the shabad. 

Arti

The difference is clear and undeniable. Another place to find these ideas is in Sohila. If any more help finding another source for the sakhi is needed I will be happy to help.


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## harpreet0804 (Mar 19, 2008)

yes i agree with u. this should be stoped. we respect hindu religion but we are not allowed to perform there rituals in our religion.


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## Harkishansingh (Mar 19, 2008)

waheguru ji ka khalsa wahegurur ji ki fateh, as u say that this is hindu aarti in gurudwara this is not hindu aarti this is the ancient maryada of guru gobind singh ji maharaj & it was running from the gururji's time  & u say that the aarti was not done in anandpur sahib for u r info. in last 40 years ago this maryada is part of every takhat sahib of khalsa panth  

*                           Kabit* 
                gur ke rijhvaye kar pae maan ichh baar
                sodar lagae fir bhog dayo pae ke
                pun gur granthi khas pathi fir rahiras, kari Ardas fateh adhik gajae ke


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## Harkishansingh (Mar 19, 2008)

gs_chana said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki fateh
> as u say that in hazur sahib the hindu aarti was done do u know tjis is not a hindu matt thi is ancient maryada of guru gobind singh ji maharaj u say that u never seen the aarti keshgarh sahib or any other takaht sahib.
> u know thi maryada has part of all takhat sahib s of khalsa panth.We do the aarti of guru gobind singh ji & guru granth sahib ji .we do the aarti akkal purakh & who say that this the hindu aarti we never do the aarti of any hindu god in gurudwara .Read thi kabit of Anciet maryada of guru gobind singh ji maharaj
> *Kabit*
> ...


waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh
S Harkishan Singh 
hazur Sahib .nanded 
maharsahtra


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## Randip Singh (Apr 8, 2008)

mehar singh said:


> Sat Sri Akal to everyone,
> 
> 
> Why did shri Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji, our beloved ninth Guru, give up their live to protect Hinduism with the pleas of the Pandits? !


 
Hall wrote on Voltaire

*I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.* 

Same attitude of our Guru's towards the Brahmins.


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## pk70 (Apr 20, 2008)

waheguru ji ka khalsa wahegurur ji ki fateh, as u say that this is hindu aarti in gurudwara this is not hindu aarti this is the ancient maryada of guru gobind singh ji maharaj & it was running from the gururji's time & u say that the aarti was not done in anandpur sahib for u r info. in last 40 years ago this maryada is part of every takhat sahib of khalsa panth 

HarkishanSingh Ji

*Satguru Nanak ji ,way earlier made it clear that HIS arti is being done automatically in"Bhavkhadna Teri..".Shabad,  Shri Rabindra Nath Tagore called that Shabad World anthem, from where that so called maryada popped up? We are going against our own Guru teachings, that is what it is.*


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## lionprinceuk (Sep 16, 2008)

lol, the starter of this thread has written something very paranoid about aarti.

what next? people are doing hindu matha tek?
People are practising the hindu tradition of following gurus?
etc etc...


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## gs_chana (Dec 15, 2008)

Fateh to all my brothers and sisters. 

I have not written anything in quiet a while was still suprised to see my thread being circulated and commented on for so long. I DIDN'T REALISE HOW CONTROVERSIAL THIS MATTER IS. 

Anyway, i wanted to set a few things straight. 

I am not paranoid in terms of my views on AARTI or any such "physical" practices. I am however FIRMLY against such ritualistic practices. 

THE REASON WHY I DISAPPROVE OF THE AARTI IS BECAUSE: 
1. there is no evidence linking Guru Ji' with the practice of such activities. CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, HOW MANY GURDWARA'S WERE AROUND AT THE GURU'S ACTUAL TIME? For all I know the Harmandir Sahib is the only place that is ACTUALLY known to have existed and set up by our beloved Gurus. 

2. Such practices DIVERT our attention and DILUTE the meaning of Sikhi. GURU NANAK started what I percieve as the most LOGICAL and SCIENTIFIC and COMMON SENSE APPROACH to religion and God. 

Why do we therefore not understand that doing RITUALS are COMPLETELY USELESS! - Guru Nanak REJECTED aarti, namaz, prayer, etc = WHY BECAUSE THE ONLY WAY  TO COMMUNICATE WITH GOD IS TO MEDITATE UPON HIS NAME. 

GURU JI MAKES COUNTLESS REFERENCES TO THIS POINT = I do not need to quote any verses because if you just start reading the Guru Granth you will find this point rather self-explanatory as the GURUJI REPEATS THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN in different ways and using different methods IN ORDER TO GET THIS MESSAGE ACROSS TO OUR FEABLE HUMAN MINDS! 

Please do not take any offence from my DIRECT and some what RUDE approach. I am sorry to be like this, but I am very frustrated at how we SIKHS COMPLETELY MISS THE POINT SOMETIMES! 

SIKHS NEED TO GO BACK TO BASICS - BECAUSE THAT IS THE ONLY WAY IN WHICH WE CAN FIX UP OUR PROBLEMS OF LACK OF EDUCATION IN SIKHI/CORRUPTION IN GURDWARAS/ETC. 

SIKHI IS ABOUT LEARNING AND EDUCATING THE MIND! If we manage that as an individual, we have SAVED SIKHI. 

Gurdip Chana.


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## lionprinceuk (Dec 15, 2008)

Guru Nanak questioned the things going around society. However he wasn;t baniing anything.

Banning is the job of fanatics. Many people have their own way f which they like to worship and whatever.


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 15, 2008)

gs_chana said:


> Fateh to all my brothers and sisters.
> 
> I have not written anything in quiet a while was still suprised to see my thread being circulated and commented on for so long. I DIDN'T REALISE HOW CONTROVERSIAL THIS MATTER IS.
> 
> ...


 
You don't need to say anything more you have sumed everything up with these lines of your's, which started this whole discussion.



> Now I am not being offensive to Hindus, but this act is a wasteful, non meaningful and not related to God in any single way. What is the point in circulating a thaal with Divas around Guruji. *We are told to read and understand gurbani, not perform rituals to it, what the hell is the meaning of that, its like doing the same thing to a picture of **Guru**'s, UTTERLY WASTEFUL*


 
Your comparing Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to a picture of Guru Nanak Dev ji, which is just a persons imagination to what Guru Nanak Dev ji looked like! I hope the base of your agruement is stronger than this because Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not a book or a holy scripture, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the living Guru. When will some stop being scholars and start being Sikhs. Speaking about praying the Guru also prayed alot i guess they were performing rituals themselves, even after the Guru having said rituals are useless. Something just doesn't add up here.:hmm: Let's try to understand what Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is saying to us instead of pointing the finger straight ahead and yelling out RITUAL.


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## pk70 (Dec 15, 2008)

*Bowing to Sree Guru Granth Sahib is not a ritual, if any one does that, it is his/her display of ignorance because bowing to Sree Guru Granth Sahib is to surrendering “self” to living Guru to walk on the path we choose. I must also say that Sree Guru Granth Sahib is not an Idol but a living Guru with enormous power to elevate souls from bottom to the highest level; it depends who goes to the Guru and for what. The Artee done in Gurdawaras has no place in Gurbani, the Shabad about Artee should be sung every day instead.*


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## spnadmin (Dec 16, 2008)

This statement quoted from the above is not comparing Sri Guru Granth Sahib to a mere book or to a picture.  quoted material.* We are told to read and understand gurbani, not perform rituals to it, what the hell is the meaning of that, its like doing the same thing to a picture of **Guru**'s, UTTERLY WASTEFUL* end quoted material
The author gs_channa is saying that aarti is like worship of a picture of a Guru. *gs_channa is not s aying that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is equivalent to a picture or a book. 

*It is very clear that gs-chana is speaking against the inclusion, revival and/or maintaining of ancient Vedic practices associated with the worship of idols in gurdwara services. His position (I think it is a Singh) is clear*. *more quoted material* Guru Nanak REJECTED aarti, namaz, prayer, etc = WHY BECAUSE THE ONLY WAY TO COMMUNICATE WITH GOD IS TO MEDITATE UPON HIS NAME *end quoted material.

gs_channa's point of view is in my opinion entirely in keeping with SinghSaba understanding. Let's be careful to react to the actual meaning of a poster's words. 

On an historical note --  initially the Gurus were surrounded by Hindu mandirs. Mandirs that were governed by Sikh sangats came over time to be what we think of as gurdwaras. This happened gradually. A good book that explores this through some early chapters is the autobiography of Gurnam Singh entitled, _East of the Indus: My Memories of Old Punjab. _


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## spnadmin (Dec 16, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *Bowing to Sree Guru Granth Sahib is not a ritual, if any one does that, it is his/her display of ignorance because bowing to Sree Guru Granth Sahib is to surrendering “self” to living Guru to walk on the path we choose. I must also say that Sree Guru Granth Sahib is not an Idol but a living Guru with enormous power to elevate souls from bottom to the highest level; it depends who goes to the Guru and for what. The Artee done in Gurdawaras has no place in Gurbani, the Shabad about Artee should be sung every day instead.*



pk70 ji

Yes.


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 16, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> This statement quoted from the above is not comparing Sri Guru Granth Sahib to a mere book or to a picture. quoted material.* We are told to read and understand gurbani, not perform rituals to it, what the hell is the meaning of that, its like doing the same thing to a picture of **Guru**'s, UTTERLY WASTEFUL* end quoted material
> The author gs_channa is saying that aarti is like worship of a picture of a Guru. *gs_channa is not s aying that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is equivalent to a picture or a book. *
> 
> It is very clear that gs-chana is speaking against the inclusion, revival and/or maintaining of ancient Vedic practices associated with the worship of idols in gurdwara services. His position (I think it is a Singh) is clear*. *more quoted material* Guru Nanak REJECTED aarti, namaz, prayer, etc = WHY BECAUSE THE ONLY WAY TO COMMUNICATE WITH GOD IS TO MEDITATE UPON HIS NAME *end quoted material.
> ...


 
Well if its not comparing Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to a picture then that's a great thing- its good to get things out in the open. 

Mr. Chana statement about prayer is not clear.  Is he refering to the Muslim prayer Namaz alone or how Sikhs pray to God. its ing.  Would be nice if he cleared that up.


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## spnadmin (Dec 16, 2008)

Singh ji

Actually I had to read these statements more than once myself. Sometimes people can write something very quickly, or they introduce a nuance or subtlety, and then the actual point is missed.

Will take a look at the statement about Muslim prayer in a bit.


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## spnadmin (Dec 18, 2008)

International Akaali said:


> please do aarth of sohila sahib and you will get your answer



International Akaali ji

You are 100 percent right! The aarti in Sohila is vast, great, mystifying and greater than a temple ceremony. And then there is the janamsakhi to focus our attention on the parable for understanding aarti.


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## lionprinceuk (Jan 7, 2009)

YouTube - aarti patna sahib ji
I like this comment someone made hahaha :
nihangsinghji 				 (3 months ago) 

 			 				 					 						"who ever is against arti etc ur a dirty singh sabhia"


Arti_Arta_along_with_ardas.avi


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## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2009)

Lion_Prine_Jatinder ji. Thanks for pointing this out. Sorry I missed that one posted 3 months ago*. Forum rule is to debate the issues not the person. *Let's not speak this way again. I am one of those dirty SinghSabhas.  aad0002


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## lionprinceuk (Jan 7, 2009)

lol ok right then


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## pk70 (Jan 7, 2009)

Lion_Prince_Jatinder said:


> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1gWDcBddddUI like this comment someone made hahaha :
> nihangsinghji                  (3 months ago)
> 
> "who ever is against arti etc ur a dirty singh sabhia"
> ...




*Satguru Nanak has defined AARTI for his followers, who are we to coin our own kind of Aarti? Shree Rabinder Nath Tagore Ji called it "International Anthem", some just dont get it and judge others instead of looking how far they are going away from Satguru Nanak !* *Judging others is simpler than following Guru obviously*
*ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ **॥ **ਗਗਨ ਮੈ ਥਾਲੁ ਰਵਿ ਚੰਦੁ ਦੀਪਕ ਬਨੇ ਤਾਰਿਕਾ ਮੰਡਲ ਜਨਕ ਮੋਤੀ **॥ **ਧੂਪੁ ਮਲਆਨਲੋ ਪਵਣੁ ਚਵਰੋ ਕਰੇ ਸਗਲ ਬਨਰਾਇ ਫੂਲੰਤ ਜੋਤੀ **॥**੧**॥ *
*Rāg ḏẖanāsrī mėhlā 1. **Gagan mai thāl rav cẖanḏ ḏīpak bane ṯārikā mandal janak moṯī. **Ḏẖūp mal▫ānlo pavaṇ cẖavro kare sagal banrā▫e fūlanṯ joṯī. ||1|| *
*Dhanasri Measure, First Guru. **In the sky's salver the sun and the moon are lamps and the stars with their orbs are the studded pearls. **The fragrance of sandal wood makes Thy incense, wind Thy fan and all the vegetation Thine flowers, O Luminous Lord! *
*ਸਾਰਾ* *ਆਕਾਸ਼ (ਮਾਨੋ) ਥਾਲ ਹੈ**। **ਸੂਰਜ ਤੇ ਚੰਦ (ਉਸ ਥਾਲ ਵਿਚ) ਦੀਵੇ ਬਣੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ**। **ਤਾਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ* *ਸਮੂਹ**, **ਮਾਨੋ**, (**ਥਾਲ ਵਿਚ) ਮੋਤੀ ਰੱਖੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ**। **ਮਲਯ ਪਰਬਤ ਵਲੋਂ ਆਉਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਹਵਾ**, **ਮਾਨੋ**, **ਧੂਪ (ਧੁਖ ਰਿਹਾ) ਹੈ**। **ਹਵਾ ਚੌਰ ਕਰ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ**। **ਸਾਰੀ ਬਨਸਪਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ-ਰੂਪ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ* *ਦੀ ਆਰਤੀ) ਵਾਸਤੇ ਫੁੱਲ ਦੇ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ**।**੧**। **❀ **ਨੋਟ: ਆਰਤੀ-**{**आरित**, **आरात्रिका**} **ਦੇਵਤੇ ਦੀ* *ਮੂਰਤੀ ਜਾਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਪੂਜਯ ਅੱਗੇ ਦੀਵੇ ਘੁਮਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਨੀ**। **ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮਤ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਚਾਰ* *ਵਾਰੀ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਅੱਗੇ**, **ਦੋ ਵਾਰੀ ਨਾਭੀ ਉਤੇ**, **ਇੱਕ ਵਾਰੀ ਮੂੰਹ ਉਤੇ ਅਤੇ ਸੱਤ ਵਾਰੀ ਸਾਰੇ* *ਸਰੀਰ ਉਤੇ ਦੀਵੇ ਘੁਮਾਣੇ ਚਾਹੀਦੇ ਹਨ**। **ਦੀਵੇ ਇੱਕ ਤੋਂ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਇਕ ਸੌ ਤਕ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ**।* *ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਇਸ ਆਰਤੀ ਦੀ ਨਿਖੇਧੀ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਦੀ ਕੁਦਰਤੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਦੀ* *ਵਡਿਆਈ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ**। *
*ਕੈਸੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਹੋਇ **॥ **ਭਵ ਖੰਡਨਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਆਰਤੀ **॥ **ਅਨਹਤਾ ਸਬਦ ਵਾਜੰਤ ਭੇਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ **॥ *
*Kaisī ārṯī ho▫e. **Bẖav kẖandnā ṯerī ārṯī. **Anhaṯā sabaḏ vājanṯ bẖerī. ||1|| rahā▫o. *
*What a beautiful "worship with lamps" is being performed? **This is Thine "Present adoration" O the Destroyer of dread! **The celestial strain is the sounding of temple drums. Pause. *
*ਹੇ* *ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੇ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਨਾਸ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ! (ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਵਿਚ) ਤੇਰੀ ਕੈਸੀ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਆਰਤੀ ਹੋ ਰਹੀ* *ਹੈ! (ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਰੁਮਕ ਰਹੀ) ਇੱਕੋ ਜੀਵਨ-ਰੌ**, **ਮਾਨੋ**, **ਤੇਰੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਨਾਗਾਰੇ* *ਵੱਜ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ**।**੧**।**ਰਹਾਉ**। *
*ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਨੈਨ ਨਨ ਨੈਨ ਹਹਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਕਉ ਸਹਸ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਨਾ ਏਕ ਹੀ+ਤ **॥ **ਸਹਸ ਪਦ ਬਿਮਲ ਨਨ ਏਕ ਪਦ ਗੰਧ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਗੰਧ ਇਵ ਚਲਤ ਮੋਹੀ **॥**੨**॥ *
*Sahas ṯav nain nan nain hėh ṯohi ka▫o sahas mūraṯ nanā ek ṯohī. **Sahas paḏ bimal nan ek paḏ ganḏẖ bin sahas ṯav ganḏẖ iv cẖalaṯ mohī. ||2|| *
*Thousands are Thine eyes, yet Thou hast no eye. Thousands are Thine forms, yet Thou hast not even one. **Thousands are Thine pure feet, even then Thou hast not one foot. Thousands are Thine noses and yet Thou art without a nose. I am bewitched by these plays or Thine. *
* (**ਸਭ* *ਜੀਵਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਵਿਆਪਕ ਹੋਣ ਕਰਕੇ) ਹਜ਼ਾਰਾਂ ਤੇਰੀਆਂ ਅੱਖਾਂ ਹਨ (ਪਰ**, **ਨਿਰਾਕਾਰ ਹੋਣ ਕਰਕੇ**, **ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ!) ਤੇਰੀਆਂ ਕੋਈ ਅੱਖਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ**। **ਹਜ਼ਾਰਾਂ ਤੇਰੀਆਂ ਸ਼ਕਲਾਂ ਹਨ**, **ਪਰ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੋਈ* *ਭੀ ਸ਼ਕਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ**। **ਹਜ਼ਾਰਾਂ ਤੇਰੇ ਸੋਹਣੇ ਪੈਰ ਹਨ**, (**ਪਰ ਨਿਰਾਕਾਰ ਹੋਣ ਕਰਕੇ) ਤੇਰਾ* *ਇੱਕ ਭੀ ਪੈਰ ਨਹੀਂ**। **ਹਜ਼ਾਰਾਂ ਤੇਰੇ ਨੱਕ ਹਨ**, **ਪਰ ਤੂੰ ਨੱਕ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੀ ਹੈਂ**। **ਤੇਰੇ* *ਅਜੇਹੇ ਕੌਤਕਾਂ ਨੇ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਹੈਰਾਨ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ**।**੨**। *
*ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ **॥ **ਤਿਸ ਦੈ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ **॥ **ਗੁਰ ਸਾਖੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ **॥ **ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੁ ਆਰਤੀ ਹੋਇ **॥**੩**॥ *
*Sabẖ mėh joṯ joṯ hai so▫e. **Ŧis ḏai cẖānaṇ sabẖ mėh cẖānaṇ ho▫e. **Gur sākẖī joṯ pargat ho▫e. **Jo ṯis bẖāvai so ārṯī ho▫e. ||3|| *
*Amongst all there is light and that light (art Thou). **By His light, the light shines within all the souls. **By the Guru's teaching the Divine light becomes manifest. **Whatever pleases Him, that is (His) real worship. *
*ਸਾਰੇ* *ਜੀਵਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਇਕੋ ਉਹੀ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਜੋਤੀ ਵਰਤ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ**। **ਉਸ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੇ ਪਰਕਾਸ਼ ਨਾਲ ਸਾਰੇ* *ਜੀਵਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਚਾਨਣ (ਸੂਝ-ਬੂਝ) ਹੈ**। **ਪਰ ਇਸ ਜੋਤਿ ਦਾ ਗਿਆਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ* *ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ**। (**ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਇਹ ਸਮਝ ਪੈਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਹਰੇਕ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਜੋਤਿ* *ਹੈ)**। (**ਇਸ ਸਰਬ-ਵਿਆਪਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੀ) ਆਰਤੀ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜੋ ਕੁਝ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਰਜ਼ਾ ਵਿਚ ਹੋ ਰਿਹਾ* *ਹੈ**, **ਉਹ ਜੀਵ ਨੂੰ ਚੰਗਾ ਲੱਗੇ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਰਜ਼ਾ ਵਿਚ ਤੁਰਨਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਕਰਨੀ* *ਹੈ)**।**੩**। *
*ਹਰਿ ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਮਕਰੰਦ ਲੋਭਿਤ ਮਨੋ +ਅਨਦਿਨ ਮੋਹਿ ਆਹੀ ਪਿਆਸਾ **॥ **ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਜਲੁ ਦੇਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਰਿੰਗ ਕਉ ਹੋਇ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਤੇਰੈ ਨਾਇ ਵਾਸਾ **॥**੪**॥**੩**॥ *
*Har cẖaraṇ kaval makranḏ lobẖiṯ mano anḏino mohi āhī pi▫āsā. **Kirpā jal ḏėh Nānak sāring ka▫o ho▫e jā ṯe ṯerai nā▫e vāsā. ||4||3|| *
*My soul is bewitched of the honey of the lotus feet of God, and night and day I am athirst for them. **Give piedcuckoo Nanak, the water of Thine mercy, (O God!) so that he may have an abode in Thy Name. *
*ਹੇ* *ਹਰੀ! ਤੇਰੇ ਚਰਨ-ਰੂਪ ਕੌਲ-ਫੁੱਲਾਂ ਦੇ ਰਸ ਲਈ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨ ਲਲਚਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ**, **ਹਰ ਰੋਜ਼ ਮੈਨੂੰ* *ਇਸੇ ਰਸ ਦੀ ਪਿਆਸ ਲੱਗੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ**। **ਮੈਨੂੰ ਨਾਨਕ ਪਪੀਹੇ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੀ ਮਿਹਰ ਦਾ ਜਲ ਦੇਹ**, **ਜਿਸ (ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ) ਨਾਲ ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਟਿਕਿਆ ਰਹਾਂ**।**੪**।**੩**। *


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## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2009)

pk70 ji

It is my understanding from the janaamsakhi that Guru Nanak was reprimanded by Brahmins for not participating in aarti. They were lighting lamps and walking about in circles. Instead he sat under a tree. When questioned by them, the recited the shabad "Aarti" to make his point -- as you have explained below.


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## pk70 (Jan 7, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> pk70 ji
> 
> It is my understanding from the janaamsakhi that Guru Nanak was reprimanded by Brahmins for not participating in aarti. They were lighting lamps and walking about in circles. Instead he sat under a tree. When questioned by them, the recited the shabad "Aarti" to make his point -- as you have explained below.



*Respected aad0002 Jio*
*Obviously Guru ji expresses how all natural things are already doing His real Arti, the following Guru Vaak seals the fate of a hypocritical ritual as a futile one even if we do not take JanamSakhi as a proof..*
*ਕੈਸੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਹੋਇ **॥ **ਭਵ ਖੰਡਨਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਆਰਤੀ **॥ **ਅਨਹਤਾ ਸਬਦ ਵਾਜੰਤ ਭੇਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ **॥ *
*Kaisī ārṯī ho▫e. **Bẖav kẖandnā ṯerī ārṯī. **Anhaṯā sabaḏ vājanṯ bẖerī. ||1|| rahā▫o. *
*What a beautiful "worship with lamps" is being performed? **This is Thine "Present adoration" O the Destroyer of dread! **The celestial strain is the sounding of temple drums. Pause. *
*ਹੇਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੇ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਨਾਸ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ! (ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਵਿਚ) ਤੇਰੀ ਕੈਸੀ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਆਰਤੀ ਹੋ ਰਹੀਹੈ! (ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਰੁਮਕ ਰਹੀ) ਇੱਕੋ ਜੀਵਨ-ਰੌ**, **ਮਾਨੋ**, **ਤੇਰੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਨਾਗਾਰੇਵੱਜ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ**।**੧**।**ਰਹਾਉ**।*
*Tragedy is this, Guru treaded on reasoning to realize the Lord while his so called followers have problem in getting over monkey- nature of copying without any reason.*


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## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2009)

pk70 ji

We do not take the JanamSakhi as proof -- that is for many a fact. But here the shabad and the sakhi strengthen one another. Yet some walk in a different direction, no matter what the Shabad says, no matter the moral lesson in the sakhi. Could it be that the roots of fear are very deep, so deep that we don't realize how deep they are?


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## pk70 (Jan 7, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> pk70 ji
> 
> We do not take the JanamSakhi as proof -- that is for many a fact. But here the shabad and the sakhi strengthen one another. Yet some walk in a different direction, no matter what the Shabad says, no matter the moral lesson in the sakhi. Could it be that the roots of fear are very deep, so deep that we don't realize how deep they are?




*Very true aad ji, it’s a cat race in fear, I cannot agree more than that. The irony of all this is that Satguru Nanak shatters all kinds of fears people usually live in through his teachings, isn’t it sad his followers are still chained to these fears!!!*


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## jatt (Mar 29, 2009)

you all need to grow up and know that sikhism has had and will always have heavy influence from hindu teachings. there is no way around it. grow up and grow a pair and move on with life. jeez


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## jatt (Mar 29, 2009)

dude r u aware that guru gobind singh ji also did durga puja???? read desam granth ji and u will see guru gobind singh ji asked durga for justice in battle against mughals.


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## spnadmin (Mar 29, 2009)

jatt ji

I am not sure who you are addressing as "dude." But in the last several posts it has been either respected forum member pk70 ji or I who have been conversing. Neither of us is a dude. We are a Singh ji and  Kaur ji respectively. Laying that to one side. Both of us are fully aware of the contents of Dasam Granth. Where did you get the idea that Guru Gobind Singh was doing pooja of Durga? Maybe if I have a better understanding of your point of view, i will then be able to respond with greater insight.

My vichaar is that Guru Gobind Singh is relating the story of Durga, an avatar of Kali, to make a point on the metaphorical level. We can discuss the relevant metaphor after you clear up what you mean by Pooja Durga. Can't honestly say there are any poojas in Dasam Granth. 

Thanks,
Antonia Kaur Moderator


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 29, 2009)

Guru Gobind Singh Ji like ALL the other Nine preceding Sikh GURUS..and all the Bhagats/Bhatts/Sheikh Farid Ji/....who have their banis in SGGS..ONLY worshipped the CREATOR..the AKAL PURAKH.Period.:happy:


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## dalbirk (Mar 30, 2009)

jatt said:


> dude r u aware that guru gobind singh ji also did durga puja???? read desam granth ji and u will see guru gobind singh ji asked durga for justice in battle against mughals.


 
Dear JATT Ji , 
Kindly go through the following article .

Sikh Articles - Guru Gobind Singh Ji and Hindu Goddesses Kalika and Bhagauti

*Bijla Singh*
In this article, I will attempt to clear some of the points that organizations such as the RSS have brought forward. Though most Sikhs who have knowledge of our glorious history and enlightening Bani can easily refute the points made by the RSS, however others who are new to Sikhi might become disillusioned upon hearing the parchar of the RSS. Two points that are commonly brought forward by the RSS will be countered using Gurbani and Sikh history. The two points, which this article will focus on, are, Guru Gobind Singh Ji worshipped Kalika Devi (Chandi Goddess) and the second being that he worshipped Bhagauti (Durga Goddess). I hope that the proofs, which will be provided in this article, will ensure that those who have limited knowledge on Gurbani and Sikh history will not fall prey to the parchar of nefarious organizations such as the RSS.

*The RSS makes the claim that while Sikhs say that Gurmat condemns the worship of gods and goddesses, Guru Gobind Singh Ji worshipped goddesses, the proof of this is contained in Bachittar Natak.*
ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥2॥ 
_“Mahakal Kalika Aradhi”_
_In addition, it appears that the Guru wrote Chandi Charitar in praise of goddess Chandi and has described the importance of its recitation, e.g._
ਜਾਹਿ ਨਮਿਤ ਪੜ੍ਹੈ ਸੁਨਹੈ ਨਰ, ਸੋ ਨਿਸਚੈ ਕਰਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਦਈ ਹੈ ॥232॥ (ਚੰਡੀ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਉਕਤਿ ਪਾ: 10)
ਫੇਰ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਇਆ ਜਿਨ ਏਹ ਗਾਇਆ ॥55॥ (ਵਾਰ ਚੰਡੀ ਪਾ: 10)
*The RSS has purposely or accidentally over looked the message of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, which is contained in the Dasam Granth.*
ਨਮੋ ਪਰਮ ਗਿਆਤਾ ॥ ਨਮੋ ਲੋਕ ਮਾਤਾ ॥52॥
_Salutation to Thee O Supreme Knower Lord! Salutation to Thee O Universal Mother Lord! ||52||_
In the above quotation, Kalika does not mean anything different from Eternal. To dispel all the doubts we show the condemnation of the worship of goddess in these six statements.
*a)* Guru Gobind Singh Ji has ordained the Sikhs:
ਬਿਨ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਨ ਕਿਰਤਮ ਮਾਨੋ ॥
_Except Waheguru (God), do not accept anyone as the ruler and controller of the world._
Moreover, it is written in the Vaar (ode) of Chandi:
ਤੈਂ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਨਾਸ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥
_O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons._
It proves that there is a Creator of Durga and she is His Creature. Is it possible that the Guru counsels his Sikhs one thing and he himself does the totally opposite? It is not possible.

*b)* Guru Sahib makes this supplication and promise:
ਤੁਮਹਿ ਛਾਡਿ ਕੋਈ ਅਵਰ ਨ ਧਯਾਊਂ ॥ ਜੋ ਬਰ ਚਹੋਂ ਸੁ ਤੁਮ ਤੇ ਪਾਊਂ ॥
_I may remember none else except Thee; and obtain all the required boons from Thee. (Chaupai Sahib)_
ਇਕ ਬਿਨ ਦੂਸਰ ਸੋ ਨ ਚਿਨਾਰ ॥
_Do not accept anyone except God as God. (Shabad Hazaray)_
ਭਜੋਂ ਸੁ ਏਕ ਨਾਮਯੰ ॥ ਜੁ ਕਾਮ ਸਰਬ ਠਾਮਯੰ ॥
_I recite only the Name of the Lord, which is useful at all places. (Bachittar Natak)_
ਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਆਨ ਕੋ ਧਰੋਂ ॥ ਨ ਨਾਮ ਆਨ ਉਚਰੋਂ ॥38॥
_I do not meditate on anyone else, nor do I repeat the Name of anyone else. ||38|| (Bachittar Natak)_
From the above quotes, it is clear that Guru Sahib worshipped none other than one Supreme Creator. Is it possible that Guru Sahib acts against his own promise?

*c)* The author of a Granth writes the name of the deity he worships in the beginning of the Granth. There he writes the invocation. Scholars can tell which deity the author worships from the invocation. 
Guru Gobind Singh Ji has always used the invocation:
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
_One Eternal, True, accessible by the grace of the Guru._
ੴ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ ॥  
_One True Eternal, Victory to the Wonderful Lord._
Then how can anyone conclude that Guru Sahib worshipped Durga? It simply never happened.

*d)* Sikhs believe that the Ten Gurus were in reality One. Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s ideas and objectives were the same as those of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. This is written in Guru Granth Sahib Ji:
ਭਰਮੇ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ॥
_The angelic beings, goddesses and gods are deluded by doubt. (Ang 258)_
ਦੇਵੀਆ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੈ ਮਰਮ ॥
_The goddesses do not know His mystery. (Ang 894)_
ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਕੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੈ ॥ ਨਰ ਸੈ ਨਾਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥3॥
ਤੂ ਕਹੀਅਤ ਹੀ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਨੀ ॥4॥
_One who worships the Great Goddess Maya will be reincarnated as a woman, and not a man. ||3|| You are called the Primal Goddess. At the time of liberation, where will you hide then? ||4|| (Ang 874)_
Then Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself says in the Akal Ustat:
ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥
_The goddess Durga takes refuge at the feet of Eternal and abides there._
Guru Ji further says:
ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਦਾਸੀ ਕਉ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਅੰਧ ਅਗਿਆਨਾ ॥
_The blind, ignorant, self-willed manmukhs forsake their Lord and Master, and dwell on His slave Maya. (Ang 1138)_
Guru Angad Dev Ji describes the goddess as sweeper of the court of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Then how is it possible that a descendant of that tradition could go against the ideas of his ancestors and against his own writings and worship the goddess?

*e)* It has been established that Guru Gobind Singh Ji only worshipped One Eternal Waheguru and taught His Sikhs to do the same. Now, let us look at the Shabad and analyze it some.
The word ਕਾਲਕਾ does not refer to goddess Kalika but to the One Eternal Lord. The word in fact is a compound word, made up of two separate words. 
The first word is:   ਕਾਲ_ - _Death
The second word is: ਕਾ_ - _of
This is not an attempt to break up words so Gurbani can be misinterpreted as in Guru Granth Sahib Ji the word ਕਾਲਿ has been used numerous times.
ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਕਾਟਿਆ ਭਉ ਕਾਲ ॥3॥
_Meditating, meditating in remembrance on the Lord, I am rid of the fear of death. ||3||_
ਜਿਨਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨ ਭੇਟਿਓ ਸੇ ਭਾਗਹੀਣ ਵਸਿ ਕਾਲ ॥
_Those who have not met the Primal Being, the True Guru, are most unfortunate, and are subject to death._
Therefore, the line in correct form would be: ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲ ਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥_2_॥
ਮਹਾਕਾਲ_ - _Death
ਕਾਲ ਕਾ_ - _of death
ਅਰਾਧੀ_ - _worshipped
This means that Guru Ji worshipped the One Supreme Power that is death of death. By reading the next lines, it becomes quite clear that these in fact are the correct meanings. 
ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਤ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਤੇ ਏਕ ਰੂਪ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਯੋ ॥
_In this way, my meditation reached its zenith and I became One with the Omnipotent Lord._
It is a well-accepted belief in Sikhi as well as in Hinduism that a goddess is not Waheguru but His creation. If we assume that Guru Ji worshipped goddess then we must admit that before Guru Ji started meditating there were three forms in existence: Lord (Waheguru), Goddess (Kalika) and Guru Ji himself. After a long period of meditation, He became one with Waheguru, which means three forms then became two. However, what Guru Ji says totally contradicts this baseless theory. He clearly states that there were only two in existence: Himself and Waheguru. After meditation, Guru Ji merged with the Light of the true Lord and thus became one with Him. Therefore, two became one. This proves that the worship of goddesses by Guru Sahib never happened. Not only are these stories a fabrication of the truth but also they are a grave misinterpretation of the message of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. 
*f)* Bhai Mani Singh Ji received his baptism from Guru Gobind Singh Ji and learned the meanings of Gurbani. He begins the Gyan Ratnavali with the invocation:
ਨਾਮ ਸਭ ਦੇਵਾਂ ਦਾ ਦੇਵ ਹੈ । ਕੋਈ ਦੇਵੀ ਨੂੰ ਮਨਾਂਵਦਾ ਹੈ, ਕੋਈ ਸ਼ਿਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ, ਕੋਈ ਗਣੇਸ਼ ਨੂੰ, ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ, ਗੁਰੂ ਕੇ ਸਿਖ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਨੂੰ ਆਰਾਧਦੇ ਹੈਨ, ਜਿਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਭ ਵਿਘਨ ਨਾਸ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਤਾਂ ਤੇ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਦਾ ਮੰਗਲਾਚਾਰ ਆਦਿ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ ।
_Name of God is gods of all. Some believe in goddess, some in Shiva and some others in Ganesha and other god. Sikhs of the Guru do not contemplate anybody else other than Sat Naam (True Name) that destroys all disturbances and imperfections. That is why Sat-Naam is invoked in the beginning. _
Had the Tenth Master believed in the goddess is it possible that His student Bhai Mani Singh Ji would write the above? Praise of the goddess is not the counsel of the Tenth Master. The work of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is really a translation of “Durga Saptshati” in Markandya Purana. That is evident from Chandi Charittar as well.
ਸਤ ਸੈ ਕੀ ਕਥਾ ਯਹਿ ਪੂਰੀ ਭਈ ਹੈ ॥...॥_232_॥ 
_This is the end of the story of seven hundred. _
In fact, in the original Sanskrit text the ending is given with great detail. In brief:
ਦੇਵੀ ਕਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਮੇਰੀ ਇਸ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਣਦਾ ਔਰ ਨਿਤ ਪੜ੍ਹਦਾ ਹੈ_, _ਉਸ ਦੇ ਸਭ ਦੁਖ_, _ਪਾਪ_, _ਦਰਿਦ੍ਰ ਆਦਿਕ ਨਾਸ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ । ਦੁਸ਼ਮਨ_, _ਚੋਰ_, _ਰਾਜਾ_, _ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਔਰ ਅਗਨੀ_, _ਇੰਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਸਭਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਡਰ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ_, _ਯੁੱਧ ਵਿਚ ਪੁਰਸ਼ਾਰਥ ਵਧਦਾ ਹੈ_, _ਵੈਰੀ ਮਰ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ_, _ਮੁਕਤੀ ਮਿਲਦੀ ਹੈ_, _ਕੁਲ ਦਾ ਵਾਧਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ_, _ਗ੍ਰਹਾਂ ਦੀ ਪੀੜਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ । ਰਾਖਸ਼_, _ਭੂਤ_, _ਪ੍ਰੇਤ_, _ਔਰ ਪਿਸ਼ਾਚਾਂ ਦਾ ਨਾਸ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ । ਅੱਗ_, _ਚੋਰ_, _ਵੈਰੀ_, _ਸ਼ੇਰ_, _ਜੰਗਲੀ ਹਾਥੀ ਇੰਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਘਿਰਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਛੁਟਕਾਰਾ ਪਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ । ਰਾਜੇ ਤੋਂ ਜੇ ਮਾਰਨ ਦਾ ਹੁਕਮ ਹੋ ਜਾਵੇ ਅਥਵਾ ਕੈਦ ਹੋਵੇ_, _ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਵਿਚ ਤੂਫਾਨ ਆ ਜਾਵੇ_, _ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਸਭ ਦੁੱਖਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਬਚ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ । (ਇਤਿਆਦਿਕ)  (ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਪਤਸ਼ਤੀ ਅ: _12 _ਸਲੋਕ _1-29)_
_Goddess says, he who listens to and recites daily her praise he loses fear of the thief, king, arms and fire. He becomes strong in battle, his enemies are destroyed. He gets emancipated, offspring multiply, troubles of the house go away, Rakhshas, and ghosts are destroyed. If one is surrounded by thieves, enemies, wild lions, elephants, one gets liberated. If under punishment of death from the king or sentenced for prison, there is storm in the sea, one is saved from all these troubles. Etc., etc. (Durga Saptshati Ch.12 Salok 1-29)_
Guru Gobind Singh Ji has covered all of this briefly in his translation:
ਜਾਹਿ ਨਮਿੱਤ ਪੜੈ ਸੁਨਿ ਹੈ ਨਰ ਸੋ ਨਿਸਚੈ ਕਰਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਦਈ ਹੈ ॥232॥
_For whatever purpose a person reads it or listens to it, the goddess will assuredly grant him that. ||232|| (Chandi Charittar)_
ਫੇਰ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਇਆ ਜਿਨ ਇਹ ਗਾਇਆ ॥੫੫॥
_And that person who sings it, will not take birth again. ||55|| (Vaar Chandi)_
The above given information, which is backed with Gurbani and Sikh History makes it crystal clear that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never worshipped the Kalika Devi. Now lets move on to claim number two, which is being put forward by the deceitful RSS and its cohorts.

*The RSS and like-minded Hindu organizations make the claim that at Ardaas (congregational prayer) Sikhs always recite:*
ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਸਿਮਰ ਕੈ...॥
_In the beginning I remember Bhagauti.._
_It clearly shows that in Khalsa Dharma there is worship of the goddess. In fact the word “Bhagauti” is ‘Bhagwati’, which means goddess. Guru Gobind Singh Ji used to write poetry in Persian script and hence Bhawati and Bhagauti are written in the same way. The writers of the Gurmukhi script, without understanding the concept pronunciation made it into Bhagauti._
In Gurmat Sudhakar the word ‘Bhagauti’ is discussed in details, which will remove the doubt of those spewing this anti Sikh propaganda and also of those gullible Sikhs who have fallen victim to the poison of the RSS. Here are a few questions that should satisfy the queries of those RSS minded individuals.
*a)* It is written in the Vaar of Chandi:
ਲਈ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਦੁਰਗਸਾਹ ਵਰ ਜਾਗਨ ਭਾਰੀ ॥ ਲਾਈ ਰਾਜੇ ਸੁੰਭ ਨੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਐ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥
_Durga held out her sword, appearing like a great lustrous fire; She struck it on the king Sumbh and this lovely weapon drinks blood._
If the word ‘Bhagauti’ means goddess then does, the above mean, “Durga caught hold of bhagauti (goddess) and hit her on the head of Raja Sumbh and she tasted his blood?” What kind of goddess is this bhagauti? Is she a tool that can or is used to hit others?

*b)* Guru Arjan Dev Ji composed the verses written below in the Persian language, which were then inscribed by Bhai Gurdas Ji. 
ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਾ ਰੰਗੁ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਦੁਸਟ ਕਾ ਸੰਗੁ ॥
ਮਨ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਸਗਲਾ ਭਰਮੁ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਪੂਜੈ ਸਗਲ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ॥
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਪਾ ਮਲੁ ਖੋਵੈ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਊਤਮ ਹੋਵੈ ॥…..
ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਐਸਾ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਕਉ ਪਾਵੈ ॥3॥
_The true Bhagaautee, the devotee of Adi Shakti, loves the devotional worship of God. He forsakes the company of all wicked people. All doubts are removed from his mind. He performs devotional service to the Supreme Lord God in all. In the Company of the Holy, the filth of sin is washed away. The wisdom of such a Bhagaautee becomes supreme……… The Lotus Feet of the Lord abide in his heart. O Nanak, such a Bhagaautee attains the Lord God. ||3||_
Are the RSS and its cohorts saying that Bhai Gurdas Ji made an error while inscribing the words of Guru Arjan Dev Ji by writing bhagauti instead of bhagwati? They should pay attention to the above verses instead of blindly following the illogical interpretation given by their uneducated scholars and tell us is it Bhagauti or Bhagwati? Moreover, what is its gender? As one can see that, the word ‘Bhagauti’ here is used as masculine and hence it clearly cannot mean goddess.

*c)* In the Bhagauti Stotar (Panegyric verse) and in the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji it is written:
ਨਮੋ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਬਢੈਲੀ ਸਰੋਹੀ ॥ (ਭਗਉਤੀ ਸਤੋਤ੍ਰ ਸਤਰ 1)
_Hail to Siri (mighty) Bhagauti (Sword) that cuts sharp._
ਨਾਉ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਲੋਹੁ ਘੜਾਇਆ ॥
_Name Bhagauti made of iron. (Bhai Gurdas Ji, Vaar 25)_
Does it mean that Bhagauti (goddess – if that is the meaning) is made of iron? In Dabistan-Mazahib, Mohsanfani has given an account to which he was an eyewitness. His narration of the account should make it clear to those who are foolishly blabbering and spreading the false propaganda (Sikhs worshipped the goddess) that the Sikhs never even respected this so-called goddess let alone worshiped her. 
ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਕੀਰਤਪੁਰ ਪਹੁੰਚੇ, ਜੋ ਤਾਰਾ ਚੰਦ ਦੀ ਰਾਜਧਾਨੀ ਵਿਚ ਸੀ । ਉਥੋਂ ਦੇ ਲੋਕ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਪੂਜਕ ਸਨ । ਪਹਾੜ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਪਰ ਇਕ ਨੈਣਾਂ ਦੇਵੀ ਦਾ ਮੰਦਰ ਸੀ, ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਪੂਜਣ ਲਈ ਆਸ ਪਾਸ ਦੇ ਲੋਕ ਆਇਆ ਕਰਦੇ ਸਨ । ਇਕ ਭੈਰੋਂ ਨਾਮੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸਿਖ ਨੇ ਮੰਦਰ ਵਿਚ ਪਹੁੰਚ ਕੇ ਨੈਣਾਂ ਦੇਵੀ ਦਾ ਨੱਕ ਤੋੜ ਸੁੱਟਿਆ । ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਦੀ ਚਰਚਾ ਸਾਰੇ ਫੈਲ ਗਈ । ਪਹਾੜੀ ਰਾਜਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਪਾਸ ਪਹੁੰਚ ਕੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਿਕਾਇਤ ਕੀਤੀ । ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਭੈਰੋਂ ਸਿੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਰਾਜਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਸਾਹਮਣੇ ਬੁਲਾ ਕੇ ਪੁੱਛਿਆ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਆਖਿਆ ਕੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਤੋਂ ਪੁੱਛਣਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਓਸ ਦਾ ਨੱਕ ਕਿਸ ਨੇ ਤੋੜਿਆ ਹੈ । ਇਸ ਪਰ ਰਾਜਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਭੈਰੋਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਖਿਆ ਕਿ ਹੇ ਮੂਰਖ! ਕਦੇ ਦੇਵੀ ਭੀ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ? ਭੈਰੋਂ ਨੇ ਹੱਸ ਕੇ ਜਵਾਬ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਕਿ ਜੋ ਦੇਵੀ ਬੋਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦੀ ਔਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਗਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਚਾ ਸਕਦੀ, ਤੁਸੀਂ ਓਸ ਤੋਂ ਨੇਕੀ ਦੀ ਕੀ ਉਮੈਦ ਰਖਦੇ ਹੋ? ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਣ ਕੇ ਰਾਜੇ ਚੁੱਪ ਹੋ ਗਏ ।
_Guru Gobind Singh Ji reached Kiratpur, which was in the state of Raja Tara Chand. People of that state worshipped the goddess. On the hilltop there was a temple of Naina Devi (goddess) and people used to come there for worship. There was a Sikh Bhairo. He cut the nose of the goddess (idol). News spread all over, the hill kings complained to the Guru. The Guru enquired from the Sikh in front of the kings. He said, “It should be asked from the goddess who has cut her nose.” On this the kings said, “Bhairo, are you an idiot? You know the goddess cannot speak.” Bhairo laughed and replied, “if the goddess (idol) cannot speak and cannot protect the body then what good you expect from her?” Then the kings were quiet._
In conclusion it would be worthwhile to say something about the goddess to our Sikh brethren.
Dear followers of Guru Nanak: First of all, consider who the goddess was and what good she has done for the world? From the Puranas we learn that she was the daughter of the Himalayas and was married to Shiva. This is why she is known by various names such as Parvati and Girja. She helped the gods by fighting against the demons. She also helped Indra a number of times to gain his throne. Indra is the god who spent his entire day watching the dance and show of beautiful maidens and passed his time in pleasures. From the Puranas we learn that there was hardly a Rishi (saint) whom Indra did not disturb while they were meditating, by sending women whose characters were morally corrupt. Indra himself indulged with the wives of the saints, one such story is that of Aahaleya. What good did the goddess perform by helping a person whose character was so unbelievably corrupt and sinful? What reforms Indra introduce on taking his throne?
Some self-willed individuals say that they do not worship the daughter of Himalaya, i.e. the goddess with eight arms, but instead they believe in her power, which they say is the Eternal power of God. We ask them, is God’s power separate from Himself? Is it Eternal? If you accept Devi (goddess) separate from God, conscious, primal and eternal and worship that, then you do not accept Ik Oankar (One God) concept of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, which is not Sikhi. If the goddess is not separate from God then to worship her by giving her a separate image is ignorance and lack of sagacity. If goddess is some transient (non-eternal) identity even then according to Sikh religion she is not worthy of worship. In principle, there is no justification for the worship of goddess in Sikhi. 
Dear Sikh brothers, in our religion there have been noble women such as Bibi Nanaki, Bibi Amro, Bibi Bhani Ji, Bibi Veero Ji, Mata Sahib Kaur Ji and Mayee Bhaag Kaur Ji. Study their lives, remember their good deeds, follow them and instruct your daughters to gain good qualities like theirs. Thereby your human birth will be fruitful and you will be worthy of being called the sons and daughters of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This will make you reformers in the country.
There is another goddess which Guru Gobind Singh Ji has blessed you with. Without that, you will be greatly distant from religion. By dint of that goddess you removed injustice from Punjab and what is now called India and you were respected by the Muslims and British. That goddess is:
ਨਮੋ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਬਢੈਲੀ ਸਰੋਹੀ ॥ ਕਰੇ ਏਕ ਤੇ ਦਵੈ ਸੁਭਟ ਹਾਥ ਸੋਹੀ ॥
(ਭਗਉਤੀ ਸਤੋਤ੍ਰ ਸਤਰ 1-2)
_Hail to Siri (mighty) Bhagauti (Sword) that cuts sharp. That makes two of one and is beautiful in hand._
ਜੋਊ ਮੰਯਾਨ ਤੇ ਬੀਰ ਤੋ ਕੋ ਸੜੱਕੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਲੈ ਕਾਲ ਕੇ ਸਿੰਧ ਬੱਕੈ ਕੜੱਕੈ ॥
ਧਸੈ ਖੇਤ ਮੈਂ ਹਾਥ ਲੈ ਤੋਹਿ ਸੂਰੇ ॥ ਭਿਟੈ ਸਾਮੂਹੈ ਸਿੱਧ ਸਾਵੰਤ ਸੂਰੇ ॥ (ਭਗਉਤੀ ਸਤੋਤ੍ਰ ਸਤਰ 21-24)
_When the brave take thee out of the sheath, they roar and pass the ocean of death. They advance in the battlefield and fight advancing forward.  _
By turning your backs on these devis (noble women) you have offered many riches to these blood thirsty goddesses. If you had spent that on the well-being of your daughters, the name of the Sikhs would have been known like the sun all over the world and coming generations would have been grateful to you. Still there is time. If you want progress for your Quam (community) and country, establish schools and colleges where Sikh character can be infused, reinforced and nourish devis (noble women) who are strong, praise worthy and worthy of Dharma. By that your decedents will learn of the counsel of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and they will change the kali-age (age of darkness) into Satyug (age of truth). Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2009)

Really good reading,  veer dalbirk ji


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## Archived_member7 (Mar 30, 2009)

Dalbirk ji anything made of stone or metal is bound to be destroyed...tomorrow if a hindu comes and make a crack in the Bhagauti sword...and will ask you..what good do you do by worshipping a metal...would we have answers....for hindus a metal idol is a representation of the Adi Shakti and for us a Shastar is a representation. Both mean the same...

To criticize another's faith is the easiest but to follow one's own is the most difficult...by the way..i would dare anyone to touch a quran or even an aayat from it and show its futility to the muslims and see what would happen to you .


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## dalbirk (Mar 31, 2009)

Raj Khalsa Ji ,
                 I suppose u have read Indian history in middle Ages , say from 8th century AD to 17th century AD , India was maraduaded by hordes of invaders . What did the so-called ELITE Hindus ie Kshatriyas & Brahmins do ? Kshatriyas went to refuge of Brahmins who merely did Karam -Kand , chanted Mantras from Yajur Veda , so that a DEVI would appear , will rain acid on attackers ( The invasion of Somnath ) , whole attackers would be blinded . Nothing of that sort happened . Hundreds of thousands of Hindus were killed by Ghazni & previously Subuktijin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somnath.

 So Guru Ji used Sword as a symbol to remind people that no so-called DEVI would come to their rescue , but they will have to rely on the Sword in their hands as the ultimate rescuer & provider . Nowadays we can replace sword with Gun or whatever .


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 31, 2009)

Guru nanak ji eye wittness to the awful slaughter and destruction of Emnabad Saidpur by babar the Mughal..says..
koi mughal na hao andha....
This is in reference to the Claims of the Pandits and Mullahs who told the Lodhis..Dont worry baout the Mughals...we will do our MAGIC CHARMS..Mantras...Koran Aiyats...and ALL the Mughals will go BLIND..their Cannons will be BLOCKED SOLID and unable to Fire a single shot.

What really happened ?? the Mughal cannons blew the Lodhis to shreds...the Mughal armies rolled into the Town of Emanbaad and Bababr burnt it all to the ground..laid waste..and plundered...
Read babarvani in SGGS.  The ONLY fools who were BLIND..were the Lodhis who beleived the pandits B_******!!

YES..the Pandit did coem to Guru Gobind Singh Ji to "reveal the Devi". He first asked for vast amounts of rasd...rations of ghee, sugar, atta, etc etc for a YAGNA....GGS gave in to humour hima nd hsow his true side to the SIKHS....when days went by...and nothing happened..GGS asked the Pandit Ji...So how ?? whats happenign My Man ?? Wheres the devi ? The wily Pandit replied..OH..Guur Ji..the Fire NEEDS the human sacrifice of a very HOLY and INNOCENT person ( his eye on Sahibzadah Ajit singh).and not be woried..wehn the DEVI appears..you can ask her to REVIVE the Sahibzadah Ji.....GGS replied...who could be Holier and more innocent than YOU...and moreover you are Devis devoted servant..she willd efinitley revive YOU..so we will do it tomorrow morning... Surprise..surprsie..next morning the Pandit had DISAPPEARED.... So GGS threw the entire remaining stock of ghee etc into the FIRE..and it welled up to the skies...everyone at the Bottom of the hill thought..OH that must be the DEVI appearing...thats the real story.:happy:


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## ranghi29 (May 21, 2009)

i am doing a little research on the Aarti begin don at Sri Hazzor Sahib.... i came across many articles and topics. So far all odds are against this act and i completely disagree with them.. This is a takat and they should follow the Marayda of sri guru grant sahib ji which says that Arti is wrong...and As a Sikh it is my and everyone els duty to go out and question them and tell the Sangat...:


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## amandeepsingh (Jul 28, 2009)

I am afraid to say that today's sikh think he is more learned than our gurus and his thoughts only are  right.... more over its our bad luck that the so called akali leaders think that they are the present gurus what ever " MANNMAT " they want to prevail  has to be followed religiously by sikhs .... Let me ask every one a question. Have we really tried to understand what gurus has said to us?  Have we ever tried to read and understand  magical words of Guru Granth Sahib ? What ever one thinks is right is being forced on others ... be it manipulation with gurbani, maryada, or any thing related to sikh code of conduct. Some non indians are not willing to utter " PRITHAM BHAGAUTI SIMAR KE " in Ardas,  some are not willing to recite JAAP sahib, Some has objection on arti with lamps and bells, some are die hard enimies of hindu. tomorrow some one will rise and would say i dont believe in the bani of hindu and muslim bhagats so delete it form the Guru Granth sahib would it be acceptible ??  pls read and understand gurbani.... all your doubts would automaticlly be cleared....  If my lord Guru Nanak has not distinguish between hindu and muslims who the #@$% are we to do so.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 28, 2009)

SIKHS DONT simmar or worship WEAPONS..Bhaguati or anything else.
Simple reason is that Bhagauti/weapon..is helpless by itself..it has no brains...the same SWORD in the hands of babar destroyed Emnabad town...the same sword in the hnads of teh Zalaad at Chandni Chowk cut off Guru teg baahdur Jis head...the same sword in Guru Gobind Singh jis Hands destroyed tyranny of Mughals..the same sword in baba banda Singh jis hands destroyed Sirhind...so HOW TO "WORSHIP" the SWORD ?? It is FORCED to FOLLOW the BRAIN of its OWNER..zaalam..or SANT.?? This entire simmar bahgauti thing is anti GURMATT and not sanctioned by SGGS...please provde quotes from SGGS ??:welcome:


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## harbansj24 (Jul 28, 2009)

Guru Fateh,

I live in India and have excellent and sincere friends among Hindus and a few self proclaimed atheists also. Whenever invited to a Gurudwara function they enthusiastically join it. When they invite me to  temple I also gladly go there and respectfully move in the temple complex but I do not bow before the deities. My friends notice this but do not comment directly.

After leaving the temple complex, they tell me how Hinduism is way of life and not a religion and how OM is a natural resonance of the universe etc. They repeatedly invite me to attend Yoga classes. Now Yoga asans are a set good scientifically proven exercises but in my opinion they certainly are not a path to attain divinity as claimed by my friends.

 During the Yoga classes you are supposed to chant Gatayri Mantra and OM which I cannot do. So I do not attend these classes.

Our friend Vijaydeep Singh Ji says that Sikhs have a insecurity problem. I can only say that Sikhs are always in Chardi Kalan but will not do things which they do not believe in. 

I will not enter into discussion about worshiping idols and showing respect to Granth Sahib as one and the same thing. I will only say that it is obviously not the same thing.

I may be pardoned from saying it but the feeling of insecurity is on the opposite side.

Does not all that has been said above indicate that our very good Hindu friends and self proclaimed atheists would like Sikhs to merge with all encompassing Hinduism? What is the problems if Sikhs maintain their separate identity? I am sure that if Sikhs are left alone they will not have any problem in coexisting with Hindus or anyone else. In fact they never had any problem!

Gurfateh and Chardian Kala


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## spnadmin (Jul 28, 2009)

Fateh harbhansj24 ji :welcome:


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## amandeepsingh (Aug 1, 2009)

_"   Sikhs DONT simmar or worship WEAPONS..Bhaguati or anything else.
Simple reason is that Bhagauti/weapon..is helpless by itself..it has no brains...the same SWORD in the hands of babar destroyed Emnabad town...the same sword in the hnads of teh Zalaad at Chandni Chowk cut off Guru teg baahdur Jis head...the same sword in Guru Gobind Singh jis Hands destroyed tyranny of Mughals..the same sword in baba banda Singh jis hands destroyed Sirhind...so HOW TO "WORSHIP" the SWORD ?? It is FORCED to FOLLOW the BRAIN of its OWNER..zaalam..or SANT.?? This entire simmar bahgauti thing is anti GURMATT and not sanctioned by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...please provde quotes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ??"_


I shall again say till the time we do not try to understand Guru Granth Sahib ji we would keep on bullshitting. 
The only need is to follow Gurmat not MANNMAT. I guess Sukhmani Sahib has answers to all the questions being discussed in this forum.....
May almighty GOD give good sense to all the sikhs


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 1, 2009)

amandeepsingh said:


> _"   Sikhs DONT simmar or worship WEAPONS..Bhaguati or anything else.
> Simple reason is that Bhagauti/weapon..is helpless by itself..it has no brains...the same SWORD in the hands of babar destroyed Emnabad town...the same sword in the hnads of teh Zalaad at Chandni Chowk cut off Guru teg baahdur Jis head...the same sword in Guru Gobind Singh jis Hands destroyed tyranny of Mughals..the same sword in baba banda Singh jis hands destroyed Sirhind...so HOW TO "WORSHIP" the SWORD ?? It is FORCED to FOLLOW the BRAIN of its OWNER..zaalam..or SANT.?? This entire simmar bahgauti thing is anti GURMATT and not sanctioned by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...please provde quotes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ??"_
> 
> 
> ...



YES JI...Sukhmani Sahib does indeed have ALL the answers...indeed every single page of SGGS has the answers..."IF" we care to treat them as such.
and not go looking for them answers OUTSIDE the SGGS..outside our one and only GURU..sarab kala smarath GURU.

I was astonished to read on another Forum about how Baba Nand Singh of Nanksar ( who is said to have seen Guru nanak ji in the Pages of SGGS in PHYSICAL FORM )..had this thing about the Hukm-Gurvaak. His thing was that IF the Gurvaak/hukm one takes after an ardass for GUIDANCE from Guru Ji...just happens to be.."NOT SUITABLE" ) not correct answer to ones ardass/beanti/dilemma )..THEN one should STOP reading the Gurvaak..TURN the Pages about..and then TRY AGAIN...IF this new GURVAAK is still lacking the answer we seek..then TRY a THIRD TIME...and then STOP FOR 24 HOURS !!! Come back the next day.
This is where we get..."ideas"...about..aaj da Hukm/gurvaak..CHANGGAH nahin see...OH..tuhadeh Anand karaj da Gurvaak..Kushee da nahin see...bacheh da janma hoiah..teh Gurvaak aiyah..Babab bolteh theh kahna geyeh ??? eh taan bhut ashubh vaak see...ek baar fir vaak lao gyani ji..
and our GYANI JIS have become adept at FINDING US the PERFECT GURVAAK..for any ocassion...KHUSHI..the Gurvaak will be Lakh Khuskhian Patshaheehan..je satgur nadar kareh...and the person PAYING FOR IT will be so happy the GURU is HAPPY TOO !! The Nanaksari  trained Babbas/Granthis.... place paper marks at certian pages..to ENSURE the PERFECT GURVAAK..everytime !!!

IS this "truly UNDERSTANDING" SGGS ?? is this truly looking for answers from SGGS ?? Taking a Gurvaak is just ONE EXAMPLE of How we MANIPULATE our GURU for our own WAY..how we Cover GURMATT with MANMATT !!! There are many other ways....
ALL the NANAK JYOT is CONSISTENT...no Mehla goes agisnt any other Mehla...IF Mehala Pehla/Dooja/Panjavaan.... says BHAGAUTI is BHAGWAT KA RAANG...then all the others also say the EXACT SAME THING....thus IF some one *OUTSIDE the SGGS* says .."NO...... bhagauti can also mean this and that.." then we MUST USE SGGS as TOUCHSTONE to check its authenticity..IF it FAILS the checkmark..the touchstone litmus test..then it FAILS. No arguments. *SGGS is the ONE and ONLY TOUCHSTONE of GURBANI from the NANAK JYOT.

*


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## amandeepsingh (Aug 2, 2009)

ਪੰਨਾ 1293, ਸਤਰ 9
ਜਾ ਕੈ *ਭਾਗਵਤੁ* ਲੇਖੀਐ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਪੇਖੀਐ ਤਾਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਆਛੋਪ ਛੀਪਾ ॥
ਪੰਨਾ 71, ਸਤਰ 7
*ਭਗਉਤੀ* ਰਹਤ ਜੁਗਤਾ ॥
ਪੰਨਾ 88, ਸਤਰ 13
ਸੋ *ਭਗਉਤੀ* ਜ ਭਗਵੰਤੈ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
ਪੰਨਾ 88, ਸਤਰ 14
ਐਸਾ *ਭਗਉਤੀ* ਉਤਮੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
ਪੰਨਾ 274, ਸਤਰ 10
*ਭਗਉਤੀ* ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਾ ਰੰਗੁ ॥

ਪੰਨਾ 274, ਸਤਰ 12
ਨਾਨਕ ਐਸਾ *ਭਗਉਤੀ* ਭਗਵੰਤ ਕਉ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੩॥


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## sukhgabria (Aug 7, 2009)

SAT SRI AKAL VEER CHANA JI
Gurughar vich Hindu Arti di total manahi chahidi hai.
Eh ek mahant prampra hai hor kujh vi nahin hai
Pehlan Akal takhat sahib ji nu mahantan kolon ajad karwaya jave 
Tad hi baki gurughar ajad ho sakde han
waheguru ji ka khalsa
waheguru ji fateh


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## dhiraaz (Aug 9, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka dhiraaz Ki Fateh, 

I am writing this article from my own knowledge.
I would like to ask how many people have seen AARTI being performed at Sri Keshghar Sahib in India. After Rehraas Sahib, AARTI begins at the gurdwara, and to my HORROR, SICKNESS, and Disappointment, the...



jagdish tytler


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 9, 2009)

amandeepsingh said:


> ਪੰਨਾ 1293, ਸਤਰ 9
> ਜਾ ਕੈ *ਭਾਗਵਤੁ* ਲੇਖੀਐ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਪੇਖੀਐ ਤਾਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਆਛੋਪ ਛੀਪਾ ॥
> ਪੰਨਾ 71, ਸਤਰ 7
> *ਭਗਉਤੀ* ਰਹਤ ਜੁਗਤਾ ॥
> ...



Which one of these means "SWORD/SHAKTEE" ?..as in..................
PRITHAM "BHAGAUTI" Simmar Ke ???


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## spnadmin (Aug 9, 2009)

You know I am not going to answer the question. I have been down this road before and the answer is really intriguing. Whenever pointed out... well then it never fails that the POINT OF THE SWORD  (pardon the pun) goes un-noticed.  Hint: Two different words are continually confused.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 9, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> You know I am not going to answer the question. I have been down this road before and the answer is really intriguing. Whenever pointed out the POINT OF THE SWORD  (pardon the pun) goes un-noticed.  Hint: Two different words are continually confused.



Narayanjot Kaur Jio,
Gurafteh.

This same trickery is misused on the Word MUNDAWNNI.
This word is used to mean..riddle in one shabad and this shabad comes somewhere around Page 700 or so in the SGGS...The True Guru has hidden a Riddle and the true Sikhs managed to Find it.

Whereas in the FINAL CLOSING Shabad of SGGS..the Word Mundawwnni is the TITLE..as in Mundawnni Mahla Panjavaan. In "title" sequence the meaning is certainly NOT a "riddle"...its STAMP/MOHR.

These people who REJECT that this *Mundawwnai* means STAMP/Final mohr of Guru Arjun ji as to the Closing of SGGS ( since they want to     authenticate Raagmaala as Gurbani) will bring in that other "mundawni word" used in the middle of a Tuk in a Shaabd of several Tuks...and SAY..OH..so "Mundawwnni" means FINAL/CLOSING/MOHR..so why NOT STOP Reading SGGS at that place ?? (around page 700)..WHY continue to READ till 1429... No amount of showing them that one word is used as a  TITLE..and the ither is word used ina  different meaning/situation..NO we dont agree !!! Main na Mannuu...??? ridiculous attitude..totally devoid of any linguistic/grammatical sense..simply blind faith in /SANT Ji...Baba ji/Brahmgyani jis said so..so its RIGHT.


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## spnadmin (Aug 9, 2009)

One can get exhausted by this nonsense.


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## Archived_member13 (Mar 18, 2010)

SAT SRI AKAL,

It's a very sad state of affairs for Sikh religion. The day is not far when the hindu idols will be installed in Gurdwara at the same time praksah of 
Guru Granth Sahib will be done. First Dasam Granth was attacked now message of Guru Granth Sahib is questioned but the least thing we can do
is spread the message of Sikh religion from grass roots level let them now
how is Sikh religion is disntinct from Hinduism and Islam. I have seen myself that idols of Guru Nanak Sahib is been sold at the every outlet. Only WAHEGURU knows what's going to happen.

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA
WAHEGURU JI KE FATEH

Regards

Gurveen Singh


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## Archived_member13 (Mar 18, 2010)

SAT SRI AKAL,

It's a very sad state of events for Sikh religion. The day is not far when Hindu idols will
be istalled in Gurdwara at the same time prakash of Guru Granth Sahib will be done. First Dasam granth was challenged now message of Guru Granth Sahib is questioned. But least we all we can do is spread the messsage of Sikh religion from grass roots levels and make people aware that Sikhism is distinct from both Hindusim and Islam.
It might sound harsh but that's the truth. I have myself seen the idols of Guru Nanak
is been sold at every outlet and idol worshipp is condemned in Sikhi. Only WAHEGURU
knows what's going to happen. Thanks

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA
WAGEGURU JI KE FATEH

Regards 

Gurveen Singh


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## spnadmin (Mar 18, 2010)

gurveen ji

Please do not post the same comment in more than one thread. I will have to delete the next one. Thank you.


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## Kamala (Dec 23, 2011)

It's not utterly wastefull... it is a sign of RESPECT! It is a way to do respect to God and when God sees us doing it and TRYING to make him feel good he does not object to it. It's just like saying "What is the point of bowing to a book because that is not god?". Please understand.


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 23, 2011)

13800038 said:


> It's not utterly wastefull... it is a sign of RESPECT! It is a way to do respect to God and when God sees us doing it and TRYING to make him feel good he does not object to it. It's just like saying "What is the point of bowing to a book because that is not god?". Please understand.


13800038 ji thanks for your post.

I believe couple of things we need to note.

First, you cannot please or displease God/Creator.  He does not work on bribery, respect, requests, gifts, and all.  Read the mool mantar as a starter and none of the qualities mentioned can be changed.  What is important is to recognize as much of the creator within and all around and do actions respecting of such.  The actions so carried out reflect your understanding.  I tend to call it "living in consonance".

Answers to your bowing query are in your own thread below,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/37784-idol-worship.html

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 23, 2011)

The SGGS declares...he is NOT PLEASED...by torturing our body, fasting, staying naked, sitting around in samadhi for long periods, leaving home for mountain caves, sitting on top of cold mountains in the snow and blizzards, crawling up hundreds of stone steps on bleeding knees, walking barefoot..etc etc etc..NEITHER is HE PLEASED by bathing at teeraths and sarovars in the hight of winter, singing aartees and banging bells and cymbals, nor by reading and muttering patths and mantars and banis non stop....He is PLEASED..JIN PREM KIO...tin prabh payioh....IF YOU genuinely desire to PLEASE HIM..place your HEAD on your Palm and walk His Path !!.....SIR deejeh kaan n akeejeh..Give YOUR HEAD and NOT your BACK....and The SIKH GURUS showed us how..by sitting on the hot plate and chanting..Tera Bhanna Meetha Lagghe..NAAM padarth Nanak manggeh....sitting in Chandni Chowk and giving the Head for the sake of Human Right to practise ones own religion of choice....burnt alive, sawn alive, boiled alive...have ones toddler sons heart pulled out form its chest and thrust still beating into ones mouth..having the eys gouged out, tongue pulled out and cut form joint to joint..and no screams of pain..just words of LOVE for ALL - inlcuding the tyrant.japposatnamwaheguru:


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## swarn bains (Mar 16, 2020)

*         ਆਰਤੀ*

ਇਕ ਪਾਹਣ ਪੱਥਰ ਪੂਜਦੇ, ਦੋਇ ਪੂਜੈ ਬੁੱਤ ਬਣਾਇ

ਡਾਲੀਓਂ ਫੁੱਤ ਤੋੜ ਕੈ ਮਾਲਣ, ਜਾਇ ਬਾਜ਼ਾਰ ਵਿਕਾਇ

ਬੁੱਤ ਪਾਖੰਡੀ ਪੂਜਦੇ, ਹਾਰ ਬਣਾਇ ਮੋਇ ਗਲ ਪਾਇ

ਜੀਵਤ ਮਾਰੈ ਮੁਰਦੇ ਪੂਜੈ, ਸਾ ਪੂਜਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਹਿੰ ਭਾਇ

ਚਿੱਤ ਚੈਨ ਟੋਲੈ ਬੁੱਤ ਨ ਬੋਲੈ, ਸਾ ਘਾਲ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਾਇ  

ਰਾਤੀਂ ਦੀਵੇ ਬਾਲੀਅਨ,  ਥਾਲੀ ਵਿਚ ਚਰਾਗ ਜਲਾਇ

ਧੂਪ ਦੀਪ ਸੰਗ ਲਾਇ ਕੈ, ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਆਰਤੀ ਚੜ੍ਹਾਇ

ਸਭ ਜੱਗ ਸਾਜ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਕੈ, ਹਰਿ ਛੁਪਿਆ ਹਰ ਜਾਇ

ਜਨ ਮਨ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇ, ਸੋਈ ਆਰਤੀ ਕਹਾਇ   

ਮਨ ਯਾਦ ਕਰੈ ਫਰਿਆਦ ਕਰੈ, ਸਾਈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭਾਇ

ਬੂਟੇ ਰੁੱਖ ਬਿਰਖ ਉਗਾਇ, ਫਲ ਫੁੱਲ ਜੱਗ ਮਹਿਕਾਇ

ਪੌਣ ਵਗਾਇ ਮਹਿਕ ਉੜਾਇ, ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨੀ ਆਇ ਚੜ੍ਹਾਇ

ਸਾ ਆਰਤੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਇ, ਅਪਣੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਆਪ ਕਰਾਇ

ਧਰਤੀ ਧਾਵੈ ਨਿੱਤ ਚੱਕਰ ਲਾਵੈ, ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ ਸੀਸ ਝੁਕਾਇ

ਦਿਨ ਚਾਨਣ ਰਾਤ ਹਨ੍ਹੇਰਾ, ਸ਼ਾਮ ਸਵੇਰ ਮਿਲ ਸੰਧ ਮਿਲਾਇ

ਰਵਿ ਸਸਿ ਮਿਲ ਕਰਨ ਜੋਦੜੀ, ਚੱਕਰ ਲਾਇ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਇ

ਦਿਨ ਦਿਨੇਸ਼ ਸਸਿ ਚੜ੍ਹੈ ਰਾਤਰੀ, ਤੇਰੈ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਚੱਕਰ ਲਾਇ

ਹਰਦਮ ਤੇਰੀ ਕਰਨ ਆਰਤੀ, ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਅਲਾਇ

ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਣ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਵਣ, ਇਤ ਵਿਧ ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰਾਇ

ਤੂੰ ਦਾਤਾ ਜੀਆਂ ਸਭਨਾ ਦਾ, ਹਰਿ ਹਰ ਜਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਸਮਾਇ

ਹਰ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਵਸੈ, ਕੋਇ ਬਣ ਖੋਜਣ ਜਾਇ

ਤੋਹਿ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੌ ਸਾਹਿਬਾ, ਜਨ ਗਨ ਬਹੁ ਭੇਸ ਬਣਾਇ

ਹਰਿ ਹਰ ਜਾ ਹਰ ਜਾਇ, ਤੂੰ ਬੈਂਸ ਕਿਉਂ ਮਨ ਭਰਮਾਇ

ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਇ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ, ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸਮਾਇ

ਮਨ ਨਾਮਾ ਭਜੁ ਹਰੀ ਨਾਮਾ, ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਚਾ ਲਾਇ

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਜਪੰਦਿਆਂ, ਮਨ ਸਿੱਧਾ ਹੋਇ ਆਇ

ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਇ ਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਇ, ਹਰੀ ਨਾਮ ਮਨ ਭਾਇ    

ਕਰਨ ਸੁਣੈ ਮਨ ਬੋਲੈ ਰਾਮ, ਮਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਮਿਟ ਜਾਇ









ਮਨ ਰਾਮ ਬੋਲੈ ਚਿੱਤ ਵਰੋਲੈ, ਬੋਲੈ ਸਹਿਜ ਸੁਭਾਇ

ਦਿੜ੍ਹ ਕਰ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਇ, ਗੁਰ ਮੂਰਤ ਚਿੱਤ ਵਸਾਇ

ਗੁਕ ਸਬਦ ਸੁਣਾਇ ਮਨ ਗਾਇ, ਗਹੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਇ

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗ ਹੈ, ਮਨ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਅਲਾਇ

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਆਰਤੀ, ਬੈਂਸ ਗਾਵੈ ਸਹਿਜ ਸੁਭਾਇ

ਸਵਰਨ ਨਿੱਤ ਕਰੈ ਜੋਦੜੀ, ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਇ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਇ

ਬੈਂਸ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਣਾ, ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਵਸਾਇ

ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਣ ਹਰਿ  ਸੇਵਣਾ, ਸਾ ਆਰਤੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਭਾਇ

ਤੋਹਿ ਭਾਇ ਬੈਂਸ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਇ, ਸਵਰਨ ਆਰਤੀ ਗਾਇ

ਤੇਰੀ ਬਖਸ ਚਲੈ ਇਹ ਸਾਸਾ, ਭਜੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਇ

ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਆ ਤੋਹੇ ਚੜ੍ਹਾਵੈ, ਕਿਉਂ ਕਰ ਆਰਤੀ ਬਣ ਪਾਇ

ਬੈਂਸ ਪੇ ਸਾਕੀਆ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਦੇ, ਸਾਸ ਸਾਸ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇ

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਹਰਿ ਫੂਲ ਮਾਲਾ, ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦਰ ਚੜ੍ਹਇ

ਸਵਰਨ ਯਾਦ ਕਰੈ ਫਰਿਆਦ ਕਰੈ, ਗੁਰ ਮੂਰਤ ਚਿੱਤ ਵਸਾਇ

ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦ ਕਮਾਵੈ, ਮੋਹਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਸੇਵਾ ਹਰਿ ਭਇ

ਪੌਣ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰ ਪਾਇ, ਸੂਰਜ ਚੰਨ ਧਰ ਘੁੰਮ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇ

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਇ ਬੈਂਸ, ਸਾ ਆਰਤੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਇ


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## wajinder (Apr 19, 2022)

harsimiritkaur said:


> Next time I see Hindu Artee in a gurdwara, I will blow a shanda, Hindu shell and say "Namastee", welcome to a pakandi mandar disguised as gurdwara sahib.  Village people are not educated and they follow pakandi saints sponsored by the Indian government. They rape women as well and commit murder on anyone who squeals on them.


agreed


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