# Who Is Sehajdhari? A Question As Old As The 1925 Sikh Gurdwara Act



## spnadmin (Sep 2, 2011)

Who is a 'sehajdhari'?



CHANDIGARH: For the past several years, the Sikh community has been besieged by confusion and legal conflicts in the absence of clarity on the term 'Sehajdhari'. The present development arising out of withdrawal of a notification by the central government is all set to create further confusion.

Community leaders point that the original Sikh Gurdwara Act of 1925 had three basic terms related to Sikhs - amritdhari Sikhs, keshdhari Sikhs and patit. Amritdhari being those who had partaken Amrit, prepared and administered according to the tenets of Sikh religion and rites, at the hands of panj pyaras. Keshdhari were those who were yet to partake Amrit and evolve into the 'pure' form of Khalsa.

The leaders, quoting various amendments in the Act, say that Patit, or apostates were those who being a Keshadhari, trimmed or shaved the hair or beard, or who after taking amrit, commits any one or more of the social evils described in the Sikh rehat maryada (code of conduct) governing Sikhs. It inherently implied that that keeping hair is the basic identity of a Sikh, besides being one of the five 'K', which an Amritdhari Sikh have to maintain).

A similar definition was presented in the HC by the SGPC in 2008, during a case involving admission of a Sikh girl into an SGPC run institution. Her case was eventually rejected after the community leaders and legal experts decided the definition of Sikh, wherein only a Keshadhari could be called a Sikh. "A person born into a Sikh family cannot claim to be a Sehajdhari by trimming or cutting his/her hair, beard or eyebrows in any manner," the SGPC affidavit stated.


"Sehajdhari term came to be included in the Act in 1959, when Pepsu states were merged in Punjab. The word is a combination of two terms 'Sehaj' (gradually) and 'Dhari' (loosely translated as 'evolving'), or someone who evolved slowly as Sikhs,'' says former general secretary of SGPC Manjit Singh Calcutta, citing Mahan Kosh, the Sikh encyclopedia. "It means that persons outside Sikh religion, who want to embrace Sikhism gradually through the phases of Keshdhari and Amritdhari, can be called Sehajdhari. Those who are born in Sikh families, but who get their hair shorn are 'patit' and not 'sehajdharis'."

However, many, including Sehajdhari Sikh Federation president Paramjit Singh Ranu, who had filed the petition in the high court, question this interpretation. "Those born in Sikh families, who had never maintained hair, could not be called 'patit', and only the amritdhari Sikhs, who cut their hair can be called 'patit'.''

With traditional community leaders opposing the entry of those who do not abide by the Sikh rehat maryada, the conflict is likely to continue.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Who-is-a-sehajdhari/articleshow/9830416.cms


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## rajneesh madhok (Sep 3, 2011)

*Sehajdhari Issue: As Old as the Gurdwara Act*

*
Related article*

* Sehajdhari issue as old as Gurdwara Act 
**Prabhjot Singh/TNS*​ Chandigarh, September 2

           Even after 86 years of legislation to administer historic  gurdwaras, the debate over recognition of Sehajdharis as Sikhs  continues. Though the term Sehajdhari Sikh finds no mention in the more  recent Acts, including the Delhi Sikh Gurdwara Act or the Acts that  govern Takhts at Hazur Sahib (Nanded) or Patna Sahib, it was  incorporated in the original Gurdwara Act: 1925 in 1959 by including  Section 2(10-A). 

The debate over the issue becomes centrestage every time elections to the SGPC are held.
In  the first 12 or 13 elections to the general house of the SGPC,  Sehajdhari Sikhs exercised their right to vote. They were defranchised  in 2003 when the general house of the SGPC passed a resolution to that  effect. Subsequently, the Union Home Ministry put its stamp of approval  on the general house decision on October 8, 2003, notifying that  Sehajdhari Sikhs were no more part of the electoral college of the SGPC.

This  notification was challenged by the Sehajdharis in the Punjab and  Haryana High Court. They, however, did not get any reprieve as the 2004  SGPC elections were held without restoration of their voting right.

Since  the withdrawal of right to vote was notified in 2003 and the 2004  elections were held without Sehajdharis on the electroal rolls, the  withdrawal of the notification now would have created both legal and  social problems.

Histrorically  speaking, the term word Sehajdhari finds no mention either in any of  the Sikh granths or the Sikh Rehat Maryada. In 2008, when the issue of  defining a Sikh was taken up by the Constitution Bench of the Punjab and  Haryana High Court in the Gurleen Kaur vs SGPC case, the Sehajdhari  issue figured nowhere though references were made to Amritdhari”  (baptised) Sikhs, non-baptised Sikhs and “patit” Sikhs , those who have  cut or plucked their hair.

The  Bench had concluded that only those who maintain “Sikhi swarup” and  follow the Sikh Gurus, Guru Granth Sahib and do not believe in any other  religion or faith can be considered as Sikhs.

Even  at that time, though the SGPC had submitted an affidavit defining  Sehajdhari Sikhs, it was later withdrawn following objections from  various quarters. While the Sehajdharis maintain they follow the Sikh  tenets, they do not agree with the definition of the SGPC .

Other  schools of thought clubbed the Sehajdharis with traditional Punjabi  Hindu families that raised their eldest son as a Sikh. Another  difference of opinion between Sehajdharis and the SGPC has been over  “patit” Sikhs. Some believe that those who deviate from the “rehat”  after getting “baptised” become “patit”. The Sehajdharis, however,  subscribe to the belief that any non-baptised Sikh who cuts hair or  plucks hair is “patit”.

The  definition of Sikh had generated an animated debate at a time when the  draft of the All-India Gurdwara Act was being approved. At that time,  the SGPC had endorsed the definition of Sikh as mentioned in the Delhi  Sikh Gurdwara Act.

Looking  back, Sehajdharis, especially those in some parts of western Punjab (now  in Pakistan), were recognised as Sikhs as they believed only in Guru  Granth Sahib and gurdwaras. Since the Sikhs enjoyed some special  facilities at that time, the same were extended to Sehajdhari Sikhs. It  is part of history that certificates issued by the SGPC got them  recognition as Sehajdhari Sikhs. They all followed Sikh rites and  rituals.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110903/punjab.htm#8
Rajneesh Madhok


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Who is a Sehajdhari? Truth or Fiction?*

Spnadmin Ji,if the terms origin was related to a geographic occurence could it then not be applied to those born or brought up in the West. As those poor souls must be allowed time to assimilate.(A long shot but worth a try )I much prefer the shorter label too ,as I already have adopted it as my identity!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Sehajdhari issue as old as Gurdwara Act*

a person BORN into a SIKH Family...growing up in Sikhism..still trims his beard and shaves, cuts his hair etc...what "sehaj" is that ?? Most of such actually had dataars and long Hair..well into their TEENS..before they went and CUT it ( as we can see from frequent news emdia articles..)..so how are they "sehaj"...trying to ENTER Sikhi ?? They are LEAVING Sikhi...
Those in teh WEST born in Catholic, Jewish, Christian etc etc families..grew up NOT SIKH...well into their TEENS only decided to embrace SIKHI ands began to wear datsaars keep eksh etc...and chhak Amrit...they are NOT sehajdharees as well..they CROSSED the LINE IMMEDIATELY from NON_Sikh to SIKH...this is similar to one who converts to Islam..Christianity etc...there is NO "sehaj".....enter Islam slowly over a few years..?? One has to recite the Klama, undergo circumciison(unreversible) and declare oenself Muslim..and thats it...why sikhi is treated differently..??

Its just an EXCUSE to be "sikh" and yet NOT be SIKH ..just Bow to SGGS BUT dont Follow what its Gurbani Says.....have a cake and eat it too...GENUINELY SEHAJDHAREE wILL make a conscious decision to STOP SHAVING..and never shave again...start follwoing Gurbani immediately...like those in the WEST do...CROSS the LINE !! or DONT.


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## OSingh (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Sehajdhari issue as old as Gurdwara Act*

Totally agree with giani Jarnail Singh ji that nobody can be born a Sikh.

This can be proved using Gurbani. 

If one is born into a family of doctors that doesn't make he/she a doctor, he/she will have to go to university and get the relevant qualifications. 

One has to learn Gurmukhi, maintain rehat, abstain from intoxicants, have good moral character, have amritvela and do paath of required banis.

If one is desperate to vote in SGPC elections surely that person will make an effort to keep kesh, read bani etc.

Keeping kesh does not constitute a Sikh, this is just one part of being a Sikh. If that Sikh still takes intoxicants, has bad morals, doesn't read bani he/she can never be a Sikh.

By the way, this not attack on Sehajdhari's, a Sehajdhari is a person that is genuinely walking on the path towards Sikhi, these type of Sehajdhari's I love. However as SGPC is such an important institution, I only want genuine Sikhs participating in the elections. Badal and Sarna are not interested in the chardikala of Sikhi, they only want to win, by any means neccessary. They will use this Sehajdhari clause to get votes from Hindus, Muslims etc under the name of Sehajdhari, this is just plain corruption. 

Thats why in my opinion, SGPC votes should be reserved for baptized Sikhs only, how is somebody going test whether so and so Sehajdhari is genuine or not, its impossible. Make the voting system as simple as possible, this will help cut out the corruption.


Rabb Rakhe


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## Ambarsaria (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Who is a Sehajdhari? Truth or Fiction?*

There are only two types of Sikhs,


Amritdhari fully compliant with the Sikh Rehat Maryada
All others through birth, through choice to slowly become one, non-amritdhari, previously amritdhari that no longer comply per Sikh Rehat Maryada, etc.
*List Number 1: * Let there be a registration of Amritdhari Singhs worldwide and a simple process to take their name off such if the fail and be added if they become.
*List Number 2:*  There should be a second list of other Sikhs and that should be the end of it.​You create more distinctions you will damage and divide the community into untold fragments and forever.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## rajneesh madhok (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Sehajdhari issue as old as Gurdwara Act*

The definition of Sikh:
Any human being who faithfully believes in:
i. One Immortal Being,
ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,
iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,
iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and
v. the baptism (or initiation service) bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not
owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh.
In religious terms, a *Sikh* is defined in Chapter *1*, Article *1* of the *Sikh* Code of 
  Conduct *...* *Keshdhari Sikhs* who wear the turban *do not* cut their hair and wear 
  beards but may or may not be *...* *constitute part* of the *Sikh* ethnic community. *...* 
  On the other hand, quite a few *Sikhs keep* the *Kesh* and wear the turban who are 
  not *...* 
http://www.shrg.net/publications/toolkit/SIKHS-v2.pdf

Rajneesh Madhok


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## rajneesh madhok (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Sehajdhari issue as old as Gurdwara Act*

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</td> <td class="alt2">swordfight</td> <td class="alt2">
</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Who is a Sehajdhari? Truth or Fiction?*

Ambarsaria Ji,If there is only one God then there can be only one Sikh.The distinction is more a physical one , when I had a long beard I could not get married and was rejected by 3 western minded girls !eventually an Amritdari family girl was 'lucky 'and accepted .When I later shaved that was a big shock to all of my inlaws!They thought they had chosen a proper Sikh boy.When we get together and take photos I look like the odd one out!


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## Ambarsaria (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Who is a Sehajdhari? Truth or Fiction?*



Sinner said:


> Ambarsaria Ji,If there is only one God then there can be only one Sikh.The distinction is more a physical one , when I had a long beard I could not get married and was rejected by 3 western minded girls !eventually an Amritdari family girl was 'lucky 'and accepted .When I later shaved that was a big shock to all of my inlaws!They thought they had chosen a proper Sikh boy.When we get together and take photos I look like the odd one out!


Sinner ji I agree with one Sikh concept.  My suggestion was to proactively have a greater inclusive Sikh populace while recognizing the goals of completeness in an Amritdhari persona.  Also to stop infighting and manage affairs of the Khalsa Panth/Nation.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Sehajdhari issue as old as Gurdwara Act*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> there is NO "sehaj".....enter Islam slowly over a few years..?? One has to recite the Klama, undergo circumciison(unreversible) and declare oenself Muslim..and thats it...why sikhi is treated differently..??
> 
> Its just an EXCUSE to be "sikh" and yet NOT be SIKH ..just Bow to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji BUT dont Follow what its Gurbani Says.....have a cake and eat it too...GENUINELY SEHAJDHAREE wILL make a conscious decision to STOP SHAVING..and never shave again...start follwoing Gurbani immediately...like those in the WEST do...CROSS the LINE !! or DONT.


 
Gyani Ji,Some muslims support a beard and some don't, some mulsim women wear a burkha and some don't,they are both considered muslim.Wear does it state in Gurbani that a Sikh must support a beard?
O Veer Ji 
It is not easy to see who is on the path and it may be that someone who is not on the path actually is and someone who appears to be on it ,is not .


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## OSingh (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Sehajdhari issue as old as Gurdwara Act*

"_Gyani Ji,Some muslims support a beard and some don't, some mulim women wear a burkha and some don't,they are both considered muslim.Wear does it state in Gurbani that a Sikh must support a beard_?"

Its well known that rehat maryada is not included in Gurbani. Rehat maryada was given to Panj Piare by Guru Gobind Singh ji at Amrit Sanchar in 1699. These rehats have been passed down ever since. 

I don't understand why some people ignore this great event in our history, when Satguru ji called for five heads from the Sangat. Rehat maryada was vital then and vital now, only Satguru ji knows the true greatness of each rehat. 

Keeping kesh and wearing kakars cannot be bypassed/ignored if one want to be known as a Sikh. Maybe the world will give you title of Sikh, maybe you can fill in forms ticking the 'Sikh' box, maybe you can post messages on forums stating that you are a Sikh, maybe you can vote in election under Sehajdhari, you can decieve the world but not Satguru. 

Are we trying to be Sikh of the 'world' or Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh ji.

Vasakhi of 1699 was when Khalsa was created. Satguru ji himself instructed us to keep kesh so how can we go against bachan (instruction) from Satguru ji himself?

Please read sakhi of shaheed bhai Taru Singh ji, after reading about martyrdom of bhai sahib one will never question importance of kesh, if rehat was not important that mean all of our great shaheeds died for nothing, which is obviously not true. All great Sikhs from Guru Nanak Dev ji to present time were Kesdhari (maintained their hair), name me one great Sikh that cut their hair?

Sri Maan Shaheed Bhai Taru Singh ji - http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/martyrs/tarusingh.html
Parnaam Shaheeda Nuu!

If kesh were not manatory then why did bhai Taru Singh ji give his life for this rehit?

Rabb Rakhe


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Sehajdhari issue as old as Gurdwara Act*

O Veer Ji,Guru Gobind Singh asked for 5 heads ,he did not say to everyone there that you must adopt this or else!Bhai Taru Singh did what he did because he was already Amritdhari,to forcibly to take away someones Kesh or make them keep Kesh are both wrong.It is not a matter of bypassing anyone or thing,the Guru Ji forgave the forty mukta's and so he will forgive all those who come back to the path or have strayed.The question is what is the path and are you sure you are on it.


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## spnadmin (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Sehajdhari issue as old as Gurdwara Act*

Two threads on the recent questions regarding sehajdhari have been merged.


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## spnadmin (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Sehajdhari issue as old as Gurdwara Act*

Pyare jio



> Rehat maryada was given to Panj Piare by Guru Gobind Singh ji at Amrit Sanchar in 1699. These rehats have been passed down ever since.



Point of information: Though many rehats grew up around the quom following the death of Guru Gobind Singh, the rehat maryada was not fashioned until the 20th Century. One of its outstanding features is that it was vetted worldwide and gained acceptance by finding a panthic consensus. The process of finding approval by consensus has implications for this discussion: i.e., whether one can toss aside any measure of Sikhi as an individual. 

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/23141-how-sikhs-got-their-rehat-maryada.html


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## spnadmin (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Sehajdhari issue as old as Gurdwara Act*

rajneesh ji

This part of your post underlines the difficulty of the task.



> In religious terms, a Sikh is defined in Chapter 1, Article 1 of the Sikh Code of
> Conduct ... Keshdhari Sikhs who wear the turban do not cut their hair and wear
> 
> beards but may or may not be ... constitute part of the Sikh ethnic community. ...
> ...



Thanks for posting it. I will be brief. The document is a guideline for employers in England. Valuable to raise awareness of the importance of dastar and kesh, as part of the identity of a Sikh. It also points out in the reading of it that not all Sikhs keep kesh but are still considered Sikhs. So we are not looking at a question that has ever been an easy one to assay. Discussion needs to outline these variations in usage.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Who is a Sehajdhari? Truth or Fiction?*



Sinner said:


> Ambarsaria Ji,If there is only one God then there can be only one Sikh.The distinction is more a physical one , when I had a long beard I could not get married and was rejected by 3 western minded girls !eventually an Amritdari family girl was 'lucky 'and accepted .When I later shaved that was a big shock to all of my inlaws!They thought they had chosen a proper Sikh boy.When we get together and take photos I look like the odd one out!



Ha Ha..Sinner Ji...
many "voters" also feel the same way....when we go to vote..the Candidate declares he is from such and such a Party...for example a Labour....and so the Voters vote for what "Labour" stands for...and then when he wins..the candidate stands up in Parliament and says..Now I am TORY !! He sure looks the odd one out ( to those who "accepted" him...as Labour and voted him based on that)...but then its TOO LATE..at least for 5 years...and for the married ones the choice is..for LIFE..ha ha.
IN Malaysia we have many of these...we call them FROGS...becasue they jump from one side to the other...and in PUNJAB such leaping frogs caused many govts to Fall....becasue in the Election they were AKALIS..and in Parliament they became Congressi....But unlike YOu..i doubt if such politicians feel "odd one out"..becasue they are too thick-skinned to admit it....to them its  a culture.."back the winning side"...What has the world coem to...
A film to watch..Ocean of Pearls....where a SIKH surgeon cuts his hair to blend in with the White Heirachy..hoping that will give him a place in the pecking order...hides his new "id" from his staunchly sikh girlfriend and her family becasue hes afraid deep inside she will reject him...and finally discovers that he is now neither a gora nor a sikh..he is like the Dhobi da Kutta..na ghar d na ghaat da...and then he returns to his Sikh ID....roots.
Truth is stranger than FICTION...a LOST  SOUL is easily discernible because he stands ona  SHORE..looking at the various BOATS...and while those who have deicded..get into their boats and depart..he stands on shore..undecided which boat is right for him...he flies the flags of all the boats...but doesnt realise that no "boat" owner will ever allow him to FLY the other boats FLAG aboard his boat.....so at the END..all hes left with are FLAGS of all the Boats.,....and NO BOAT.   Something simialr to a DESI..who migrates to USA...at one point he has to decide which PASSPORT he wnats to hold..India..or USA...he cant have BOTH...BUT a "dreamer" may opt to have "pictures" of ALL the Major Countries' PASSPORTS stuck on His WALL....imagining he is CITIZEN of ALL thsoe countries...hes LOST SOUL...becasue actually hes a citizen of NONE.( although deep inside he knows he actually holds just one passport but hes too full of.....???? to disclose that fact and chooses to fly the flags of many passports....
In RELIGION too GURBANI CLEARLY advises us to place our feet in ONE BOAT....not be in DUBIDHA..doubt ful stage...we have to choose...the choice is ours but we have to choose...NIGURREH da Nau burrah...one without a GURU is worthless..floating aimlessly from boat to boat...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 3, 2011)

*Re: Sehajdhari issue as old as Gurdwara Act*



Sinner said:


> Gyani Ji,Some muslims support a beard and some don't, some mulsim women wear a burkha and some don't,they are both considered muslim.Wear does it state in Gurbani that a Sikh must support a beard?
> O Veer Ji
> It is not easy to see who is on the path and it may be that someone who is not on the path actually is and someone who appears to be on it ,is not .



Veer Ji,
The shabad often quoted Sabat soorat dastaar sirah..in SGGS is in relation to a MUSLIM with a dastaar...and the essence of that is even for a Muslim the Dastaar only looks "suitable" IF he doesnt BREAK the sabat Soorat image...much more for a SIKH.
Many shabds in which the Sikh GURUS sketch "word images" of their BELOVED (WAHEGURU)..are SABAT SOORAT...long hair, long beards and dastaar wearing. Now the question is why would the GURUS sketch such an image IF they didnt "see" their Beloved Akal Purakh in that image ??
IN the Christian world the Image of GOD is of an old man with a Long flowing BEARD...and the Bible says GOD made MAN in HIS OWN IMAGE !! What Image woudl that be ?? Its clear that the Christians discarded that image long ago..and many sikhs are also DISCARDING the IMAGE our GURUS painted of Akal Purakh.. ( I am just giving the Christian Bible example becasue i noticed the Cross on your wall)

I am NOT giving the shabads as its not my place to spoon feed anyone..and also those who ask..WHERE is it written..are the ones who are simply asking for the sake of asking..the answers can be found if they are interested becasue the SGGS is now freely available everywhere.. I will However DISCUSS the SHABAD in full provided by anyone to "prove" thats a SIKH is required to SHAVE...or thats its mandatory to cut hair in order to be a Sikh. Not in a single shabad has the Sikh Gurus ever described the "sargun" their Beloved Lover Akal purakh as clean shaven.So for me its clear that IF my Gurus' Beloved is dastaar sirrah full keshadharee ( Lammrreh wallah ) then I want that to be MY IMAGE as well.


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 4, 2011)

This question of Sehajdhari , Keshadhari  and Amritdhari will not be resolved till we have corrupt honchos of the Akal Takhats, SGPC  and of numerous Taksals  who misuse Gurmat values given to us in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, to their own personal advantage. And let’s not forget that all these so called big bosses sitting cross-legged on their high chairs are Amritdharis.

Sikhi is a very simple pragmatic way of living that took our visionary Gurus more than 200 years to carve it, through many sacrifices and given to us on a platter as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru-Teacher-GPS- our Tool Box.

Now, the question arises who is a Sikh? Gurbani is full of verses that tell us that a Sikh is the one who breeds goodness within and shares with others irrespective of one’s hue, creed or faith. Sikh Gurdwara is where all are welcome, hence the four doors of Harmander Sahib.

It does not do any justice to compare Sikhi with other religions which are mainly based on dogmas, and hence fenced by their dogmatic walls claiming to hold the “absolute truth” which Sikhi is not about because the first pauri of Jap tells us that Truth is absolute but fluid. 

These religions were all created in one generation, by one person and therefore their version of “Truth” stopped in time and became “absolute”.  

Most of their scriptures are like the play book; using the American football analogy, rules of do’s and do nots based on what they understood about Ik Ong Kaar during their times. So, it is more an external imposition of the rigid rules rather than the instilling of wills and will nots as an internal manifestation that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru shows us. Gurbani gives us the foundation to be good human beings and how we use that goodness depends on each of us as Sikhs.

  One more important thing to point out is that Gurbani and Sikh history are two different things. Our Gurus could have hired great artists of the time to create their own portraits. They could have dictated the history to the academicians of the time or could have written by themselves. They chose not to do either and this point has to be understood and appreciated as a visionary way of instilling wills and will nots rather than dwelling in Me-ism of do’s and do nots. That is why, when we mix Gurbani, Sikh traditions and Sikh history, it becomes not so tasty a gumbo to many because the latter two can be like water and oil because our Gurus did not participate in them, except for some verses by the Bhatts in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 

According to Gurbani, one is not born a Sikh but becomes one.  

Now, coming back to the original topic of who is Sehajdhari, Keshadhari  or Amritdhari .

Gyani ji has eloquently and rightfully mentioned that there is nothing called Sehajdhari in any other religion. People who convert to Sikhi start keeping their hair first and foremost. 

So, in other words, keeping unshorn hair is a Sikh tradition etched in our Sikhi psyche. The Brits respected that and saw how important this tradition of unshorn hair and turban was part of Sikhi that they encouraged all to continue. That is why Sikhs’ bravura is well documented in World War l and ll.

 If we drop this tradition or claim that this is not important for a Sikhi marg, then we are off the mark because Sikhi look is woven in the Sikhi way of life in how to become a Sikh while looking like one and the latter is explained to us in details in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 

Mind you, it is easy to look like a Sikh and pretend to be one as many Muslims did during the 2 wars of 1965 and 1972 against Pakistan. But that is not what a Sikh maketh.

  Osingh ji writes:



> Thats why in my opinion, SGPC votes should be reserved for baptized Sikhs only, how is somebody going test whether so and so Sehajdhari is genuine or not, its impossible. Make the voting system as simple as possible, this will help cut out the corruption.


I assume that by “ Baptised Sikhs” he means Amritdhari Sikhs. It is a noble thought indeed but we all know the politics behind SGPC are controlled by the Badal group. We all know how these so called Amritdhari Sikhs along with Badal and his cronies  go to the Derawalas and prosititute Sikhi to get their voting  blocks  because many ignorant who call themselves Sikhs follow these charlatans.

Until SGPC is cleaned from corruption and its goals to help other Sikhs grow in a Miri- Piri manner, are not well defined, it matters naught who votes in it because it is all a charade, a kabuki dance in the name of Sikhi. Nothing else.

Sinner ji writes:



> Gyani Ji,Some muslims support a beard and some don't, some mulsim women wear a burkha and some don't,they are both considered muslim.Wear does it state in Gurbani that a Sikh must support a beard?
> O Veer Ji
> It is not easy to see who is on the path and it may be that someone who is not on the path actually is and someone who appears to be on it ,is not


  Sinner ji, here you are comparing apples and oranges. For Muslims we are all Kafirs and should be killed if not converted to Islam. Our Sikh history is the proof of all this. Your post shows that there is no rigid tradition in Islam which is a bit misguided because according to the Talibans, there is no option but to keep beard and wear a burka. Even music is shunned.

As mentioned in my post above that Sikh tradition of keeping unshorn hair and Gurbani are intertwined and hence can not be separated. 

The beauty of Sikhi is that if you do not follow the Sikhi traditions, you will not be excommunicated, barred from entering any Gurdwara as is required in many religions nor you will be murdered as it often happens in Islam.

So, who is Sehajdhari?

  Come to think of it, the name Sikh makes us all Sehajdharis because learning is a slow and lifelong evolving process, but that has nothing to do with shedding the Sikh tradition/look.


Tejwant Singh


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## rajneesh madhok (Sep 4, 2011)

*Re: Who is a Sehajdhari? Truth or Fiction?*



Ambarsaria said:


> Sinner ji I agree with one Sikh concept.  My suggestion was to proactively have a greater inclusive Sikh populace while recognizing the goals of completeness in an Amritdhari persona.  Also to stop infighting and manage affairs of the Khalsa Panth/Nation.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


In our spiritual books the stress is given on "IK Onkar" means One God. If we elaborate the subject then we conclude that Naam is Prabh and so Prabh is God. In Japji Sahib's Pauri 38, it was very clearly explained by Guru Nanak Dev ji that Naam Juppna--- is the Sikh WAY OF LiFE. In other words we may call it Sikhi or in other words DISCIPLINED LIFE. Guru Amardas ji, Guru Ramdas ji and Guru Arjan Dev ji has elaborated the subject in Guru Granth Sahib. 
By the teachings of Gurujis the point highlighted is IK ONKAR then how the matter came to existence like Sehajdaris and all that. 
Regards,
Rajneesh madhok


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## SinghWeapon (Sep 4, 2011)

No one is Sehajdhari. One can only be the purest as they can be..and  keep travelling on the path to complete purity. It is not acheived, it  does not "get completed" it does not have an ending. Who is to judge?  Whos respect are you trying to earn? Are you a showpiece? Are you real?  One cannot brag about being sehajdhari, or even say that they are, they  can only claim to be a Sikh and a student of the gurus, who is forever  learning and purifying.     *


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## rajneesh madhok (Sep 4, 2011)

SinghWeapon said:


> No one is Sehajdhari. One can only be the purest as they can be..and  keep travelling on the path to complete purity. It is not acheived, it  does not "get completed" it does not have an ending. Who is to judge?  Whos respect are you trying to earn? Are you a showpiece? Are you real?  One cannot brag about being sehajdhari, or even say that they are, they  can only claim to be a Sikh and a student of the gurus, who is forever  learning and purifying.     *


We all are children of that almighty those are troubled by some of the thoughts that we have today. We are wondering and uselessly wasting time on petty issues. Why we wonder about birth and death. Why we wonder that he/ she get sick and why grandfather died. Why we wonder that why our wishes do not come true. We wonder about happiness and beauty in nature. 
We are still confronting on the petty issues. Off the track but concerned with divine beauty I come to the story of Siddhartha. One day Siddhartha became disillusioned with the palace and wanted to see the outside world. He made four trips outside the palace and saw four things that changed his life. On the first three trips he saw sickness, old age and death. He asked himself, How can I enjoy a life of pleasure when there is so much suffering in the world. On his fourth trip he saw a wandering monk who had given up everything he owned to seek an end to suffering. What Siddhartha thought: I shall be like him. 
The fourth incident changed the life of Sidhartha and he left kingdom and loved ones behind and became a wandering monk. He cut off hair to show that he had renounced the worldly lifestyle and called himself Gautama. He wore ragged robes and wandered from place to place. In his search for truth, he studied with the wisest teachers of that time. But none of them provide knowledge to him that how one can end suffering. So, he continued the search on his own. 
The purpose to highlight this story is that we should get enlightenment. But the selfish persons are diverting our path from pleasure to the life full of unnecessary disputes. Basic teachings of all dharmas are one and the same. The teaching of Lord Buddha apply in this case as well. 
1. There is suffering and Suffering is common to all. 
2. Cause of Suffering. We are the cause of our suffering. 
3. End of Suffering. Stop doing what causes suffeing.
4. Path to end suffering. Everyone can be enlightened. 
So we should follow the teachings of our Gurus and we should concentrate on the subject of enlightenment, but we people are being bifurcated in Sehajdaris and all that. We don't concentrate on the subject of concentration. We should teach the society the art of concentration of mind and body. so that we feel relaxed and become peaceful. 
But our politicians are dividing us on the meagre issues those have nothing to do with Sikhism ------the Purity of mind and body.  
Regards,
Rajneesh Madhok


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 4, 2011)

*Re: Sehajdhari issue as old as Gurdwara Act*

Any Amritdhari will always say the physical Rehat is essential to being Sikh,remember people wore turbans because that was the culture in Punjab,some smoked Huka too .One never likes to break with convention and articles of faith have become to those who wear them essential to their faith If you like the Amritdhari fundamentalists say a Sikh must have the physical appearance to be Sikh then you are also saying that practice of Gurbani is by itself not enough,we all know that cannot be correct.I think once you keep Kesh no one will convince you otherwise but most people will agree that Gurbani deals with the Self not the body.And there is no Rehat Maryada for the body contained in it's pages.In the end no one will take their bodies much less their long hair so what is the use in making distinctions, we all leave without Kesh.If you cannot see all Sikhs as the same then how will you see all mankind as the same.Guru Nanak said their were no Hindu and no Muslim in otherwords there is no two of anything on this earth.If you see two that is duality.May I quote Spner Max314 he explains the distinction much better than me. "_Guru Nanak's sentiments never actually promoted religion, nor did he promote any other form of institutionalised belief system. Rather, he spent most of his time pointing out the common goods in existing religions, and condemning what he perceived to be their individual deficits.I don't think that Sikhism is a 'religion', though I believe that Khalsaism is.__The reason for this is very simple: the Guru Granth Sahib promotes equality, secularism, non-discrminatory, non-divisional views on living with a God who is featureless, formless and timeless. It rejects the notion of rituals and routines, and it discards the importance of wearing particular clothes over the content of one's character. Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Dassam Granth, on the other hand, teaches that a Khalsa is above all and that a Khalsa should not consort with non-Khalsas. It teaches of a God who is wrathful and vengeful, and places importance on certain rituals (e.g. taking amrit) and codes of practice and dress (e.g. the Five K's, etc).Weighing up the two sets of information, it would seem to me that the way of the Khalsa measures up to all the distinguishable requisites of a religion, whereas Sikkhism is almost entirely independent of that.__The Khalsa, it seems, was forged very deliberately into a warrior cult or religion in order to protect those universal, non-institutional teachings of the Granth and to enforce its principles. A 'necessary evil', one might say.__Of course, given the amount of time and the proximity with which Sikkhism and its warrior Khalsa cult have lived side-by-side has meant that many Khalsaist influences have trickled down and eventually set upon the now-accepted image of Sikkhism. But, in my view, the two are always going to be essentially separate, though historically linked"_


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## Searching (Sep 4, 2011)

Sikhism has a concept that in spirit Guru Nanak sahib ji is no different from Guru Angad sahib ji and so on. If we chose to disbelieve or reject sayings of one Guru sahib ji according to what suits us, we totally reject the concept of same spirit carrying forward in all Guru jis and hence Sikhism.
Sikhism is what it is. Not subjected to change with what people feel comfortable in a particular place and time.
The way we chose to live by it may change though.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 4, 2011)

Searching Ji ,By the same token accepting the word of one Guru is the same as accepting all as they were one Joyt .


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 4, 2011)

There are plenty of references to BODY DISCIPLINE in Gurbani and related Texts of Bhai gurdass Ji...the need to get up early, (sleep less), the need to BATHE ( in cold river/sarovar waters), the NEED to keep the body as sabat soorat  (Rejection of those who practised cutting hair.......to show RENUNCIATION from the world as even Gautama Buddha Ji did destroying hair form its roots,(Jains and ceretain sects) keeping long matted hair as a sign of deep religious spirituality, NOT WORKING but begging as a livelihood, etc etc) are all disciplines of the BODY. Why Keep long hair matted and uncombed..as a sign of spirituality ? Why cut your hair to its roots when the Mann has NOt been cut/trimmed/rooted out all bad thoughts/evils kaam etc? Why rub soot into hair roots to stop all hair growth ? ALL these REALIGIOUS PRACTISES were seen closely and observed by the Sikh Founder Guur nanak ji and revered Bhagats like Kabir Ji as well and REJECTED. Mnay Forget that the SIKH REHAT is not merely keeping long hair..the requisite is a daily Bath, daily COMBING of hair twice at least (Kangha is mandatory), removal of dastaar fold by fold and RETYING it fold by fold each time - these are Disciplines of the Body.
GURBANI is the First step...a SIKH has to Walk the Talk...read, listen, FOLLOW and ADAPT his daily life according to GURBANI...thats the FUNDAMENTAL BOTTOM LINE....and this is the Very First TOP MOST requirement in the SRM....the Kesh and all that come a distant second last in the definition of a SIKH..BUT theres NO ESCAPING that FINAL CHAPTER either...if one thinks he can dispense with that..then hes a bigger fool than the one who starts Sikhi Bottoms UP !!..and stays at the stage of merely keeping kesh etc.... As they say the Taste is in the EATING..Gurbani syas the same thing..Thaal vich teen vastoo paiyoo..SAT SANTOKH VICHAR..Je ko KHAVEH, Je Ko BHUNCHEH..tis ko hoi UDHAAR. Everything begins at a Stage ONE...and SIKHI begins from SGGS....one who claims he has "tasted" SGGS has to be transformed....if he shows no signs of any transformation..hes self deception in progress...just as self deceptive as the failed/Beginner studnet putting on the borrowed/rented cloak/hat etc and claiming hes a PHD. Thats why Kabir Ji rejected BOTH the Clean Shaven and the Matted Hair types...as HOLLOW inside devoid of any spirituality but just empty vessels. THIS TUK of Kabor Ji is NEVER EVER quoted by the Clean Shaven "gurbani experts" because it cuts deep..too deep for comfort...they rather ignore it and harp on the ones about long hair !!!  They Conveniently FORGET/IGNORE the fact that its INFINITELY HARDER to "Clean Shave the MANN of its Vikaars, bad habits, lies, cheating, jealousy etc etc etc which DARKEN IT....while its so EASY to catch hold of  a RAZOR...and close the bathroom door for a few minutes..or better still seat ones self in a BARBERS CHAIR and eb manipulated by him for a small fee !! And SGGS DEFINITELY has  a Whole LOT to say about the MANN !! GURBANI and History proves that the MANN caused the downfall of those with huge Families, with wealth and power, Rishis and Munnis, even DEVTAS as powerful as Shiv, Brahma etc...and listen to a "clean shaven sikh"..and you would THINK that hes MASTERED GURBANI ( at least thats what he thinks he has done/accomplished...and so dearly wishes everyone else would BELIEVE HIM...that HE just shaved his ehad and achieved what Brahma Shiv and raavan etc FAILED to do - CONQUER HIS MANN !!!)
For me its easier to beleive the 4 year old kiddie standing in front of me inside the University cloak and wearing that ridiculous tasseld hat on his head has achieved the PHD status and can be called a Professor of Divinity !!...OR his kiddie bro that was just shaved bald yesterday for a Hindu religious ceremony claim that hes the real Professor of Divinity and his bald head is proof of it !! HINDU ANNAH..TURKU KANNAH..dohan te GYANI siyannah...dont be confused by the words "hindu/Turku"...they apply to anyone and everyone...who is SANS REAL UNDERSTANDING and is going only by appearances...its the GYAAN..the Knowledge...thats VITAL..and then just having the Knowledge is also USELESS...VIDYA "VICHAREE"...taan PAR-UPKAREE..the Vidya the gyaan the knowledge has to be PRACTISED....and PRACTISE SHOWS as clearly as a drop of blood shows up on a white sheet !!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 4, 2011)

Sinner said:


> Searching Ji ,By the same token accepting the word of one Guru is the same as accepting all as they were one Joyt .



The GURU has always been ONE..EKO GURU..eko vichaar...SHABAD GURU.
The Bodies were different..born of different mothers fathers at different periods of time...departing differently...old age, disease, torture, young age, battlefiled....as is the HUKM....BUT the "GURU"..the SHABAD is the AAD SACH jugaad SACH and Haisee Bhee SACH..ONE !!


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 4, 2011)

Searching said:


> Sikhism has a concept that in spirit Guru Nanak sahib ji is no different from Guru Angad sahib ji and so on. If we chose to disbelieve or reject sayings of one Guru sahib ji according to what suits us, we totally reject the concept of same spirit carrying forward in all Guru jis and hence Sikhism.
> Sikhism is what it is. Not subjected to change with what people feel comfortable in a particular place and time.
> The way we chose to live by it may change though.



Searching ji,

Guru Fateh.

Sikhi is the only way of life that did not stop in time like other dogmatic religions did. Learning is a life long endeavour. Sikhi changes us and we see 
Sikh values in different ways through our learning process, with time. 

Sikhi is all about learning, unlearning and relearning with every action we take.

As the old saying goes:

"If we change the way we look at things, then the things we look at change".

Relish your journey.:blueturban:

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 5, 2011)

*Re: Sehajdhari issue as old as Gurdwara Act*



Sinner said:


> Any Amritdhari will always say the physical Rehat is essential to being Sikh,remember people wore turbans because that was the culture in Punjab,some smoked Huka too .One never likes to break with convention and articles of faith have become to those who wear them essential to their faith If you like the Amritdhari fundamentalists say a Sikh must have the physical appearance to be Sikh then you are also saying that practice of Gurbani is by itself not enough,we all know that cannot be correct.I think once you keep Kesh no one will convince you otherwise but most people will agree that Gurbani deals with the Self not the body.And there is no Rehat Maryada for the body contained in it's pages.In the end no one will take their bodies much less their long hair so what is the use in making distinctions, we all leave without Kesh.If you cannot see all Sikhs as the same then how will you see all mankind as the same.Guru Nanak said their were no Hindu and no Muslim in otherwords there is no two of anything on this earth.If you see two that is duality.May I quote Spner Max314 he explains the distinction much better than me. "_Guru Nanak's sentiments never actually promoted religion, nor did he promote any other form of institutionalised belief system. Rather, he spent most of his time pointing out the common goods in existing religions, and condemning what he perceived to be their individual deficits.I don't think that Sikhism is a 'religion', though I believe that Khalsaism is.__The reason for this is very simple: the Guru Granth Sahib promotes equality, secularism, non-discrminatory, non-divisional views on living with a God who is featureless, formless and timeless. It rejects the notion of rituals and routines, and it discards the importance of wearing particular clothes over the content of one's character. Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Dassam Granth, on the other hand, teaches that a Khalsa is above all and that a Khalsa should not consort with non-Khalsas. It teaches of a God who is wrathful and vengeful, and places importance on certain rituals (e.g. taking amrit) and codes of practice and dress (e.g. the Five K's, etc).Weighing up the two sets of information, it would seem to me that the way of the Khalsa measures up to all the distinguishable requisites of a religion, whereas Sikkhism is almost entirely independent of that.__The Khalsa, it seems, was forged very deliberately into a warrior cult or religion in order to protect those universal, non-institutional teachings of the Granth and to enforce its principles. A 'necessary evil', one might say.__Of course, given the amount of time and the proximity with which Sikkhism and its warrior Khalsa cult have lived side-by-side has meant that many Khalsaist influences have trickled down and eventually set upon the now-accepted image of Sikkhism. But, in my view, the two are always going to be essentially separate, though historically linked"_



Its a gross insult to GURU NANAK JI SAHIB that...one doesnt like to break from convention..tradition...
GURU NANAK JI REJECTED the JANEAU...a total and IMMEDIATE break with convention even at the expense of alienating hsi fmaily and peers...who gahthered at his house for the ceremony, having sllaughtered a GOAT etc for the ceremony. Guur nanak ji didnt COMPROMISE...and say..OK I will wear it for a while...and then take it off..( Just like SOME SIKHS do..they wear their dastaars and dont TRIM their beards just to make their parents Happy, get married..and then Unwind the dastaar, cut their kesh and discard their beard...and show their middel finger..so WHAT can you do to me NOW !!!?? ) GURU NANAK JI CHALLENGED so much "accepted traditional etc...because HE came to CHANGE..not follow the already accepted ( wear turban and smoke Hukka )
2. Secondly its also an insult to say that Guru nanak Ji Mandated Dastaar simply becasue it was ..."accepted tradition..." I wonder why He left out HUKKAH ?? maybe that wanst so traditonal/accepted that much ?? IN FACT he made HUKKAH a KUREHIT !!!...and REMOVAL of DASTAAR a KUREHIT as well...whatever happened to traditional convention ???
SIKHISM is NOT a religion..and neither is KHALSAISM....( Both words not acceptable as they are ISMS)....*GURMATT is the WAY OF LIFE*..taught by Guur nanak Ji recorded in SGGS. GURMATT is ACCEPTING and ADOPTING the GURU MATT and DISCARDING ones own Manmatt (incluidng whateever is just traditional/conventional/either wearing a puggh or smoking a hukkah  and anything else...). GURMATT is NOT a mere BELIEF...it has to be PRACTICALLY FOLLOWED....to Change ones life..no mere LIP SERVICE or chanting mantras will do...and this CHANGE has to become MANIFEST ...VISIBLE....otherwise its  a SHAM.
*GURU GOBIND SINGH JI is NANAK*...and *NANAK has ONLY ONE GRANTH..the SGGS. *Guru Gobind Singh ji bestowed the Gurgadhi of Nanak on the Completed SGGS in 1708.....completing the CIRCLE..that was revealed with SHABAD GURU..surat dhun Chela that Guru nanak ji told the Sidhs. Its an insult on Guru Gobind Singh ji to even IMPLY that HE deviated/went against the SGGS/GURU NANAK JI Sahib and had his own separate "teachings"...etc. One who has NO FAITH in Guru Gobind Singh Ji has NO faith in the earlier Nine Nanaks - hes self deluded because there is ONLY ONE NANAK !! One just cannot have ones "cake" and eat it too...either one has FAITH in the Complete NANAK..or has NONE..there are no half measures.
THis DIVIDE and DESTROY actually is the AGENDA of all those who produced FAKE bani under Mahallas 5/6/7 and 8 !! wrote fake Guritihaas such as Gurbilas patshahi Chhevin, Gurbilas Patshai Dasvin, the fake bachitar natak Granth and introduced IDOLS, MOORTEES, Brahmin Rituals inside Gurdwaras...etc etc in order to prove that Guur Gobind Singh was a DEVI Bhagta/HINDU on one hand..and also as different from the NINE predecessor Nanaks 1-9.....This Agenda is still in vogue and being actively propogated - either to assimilate Gurmatt into Hindufold..or destroy it completely.
Saying there is NO HIndu and NO MUsslaman is - the Guru sahib pointing out that these BOTH had FOLLOWERS who had DEVIATED form their ORIGINAL TEACHINGS. IF this is being seen as "duality"...then what to make of the Statement GURU TEG BAHADUR JI made to Emperor Aurengzeb..when Aurengzeb told Guur Ji..Please Convert and make my dream of ensuring my Empire has ONLY ONE RELIGION...ISLAM. Guur Ji replied...Emperor..you are mistaken...Now there are TWO Major religions Hindu and Muslim...and when I am GONE ( Because price of refusal to convert was DEATH ).....there will be THREE - MY SIKHS will make the third religion. SO according to the argument that Guur nanak ji rejected "duality" via that statement No hindu an mussalman...Guru teg bahadur Ji si promoting TRIPLITY ?? There is no dearth of people roaring to go and misinterpret Gurbani according to their own versions...
Elsewhere in SGGS its written... Ji has written...I am neither Hindu nor Musslaman..neither Raam nor Allahs..I belong to Allah_Raam !!..SO IF a HINDU is genuinely follwoing Raam..he is no different from the Muslim gneuinely follwoing Allah..thats why the Bhagats Kabir i ravidass Ji etc have no problems with "Allah/Raam/Govind?Krishan/Narayan..whatever...its the "FOLLOWERS" who differentiate between the Allah  and Raam...the Duality is in the PERSON who thinks he can be THIS and THAT at the same time...Duality is having 2 feet in different Boats...or many boats...or jumping form one boat to the other at whims and fancies...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 5, 2011)

The person who wrote the above quoted quote by Veer Sinner Ji..has NOT read the so called Dsm Granth. He dosent know even ONE line from it..........and the proof is that he thinks the DG was written to...." _Guru Gobind Singh Ji's  Dassam Granth, on the other hand, teaches that a Khalsa is above all and  that a Khalsa should not consort with non-Khalsas. It teaches of a God  who is wrathful and vengeful, and places importance on certain rituals  (e.g. taking amrit) and codes of practice and dress (e.g. the Five K's,  etc).Weighing up the two sets of information, it would seem to me that  the way of the Khalsa measures up to all the distinguishable requisites  of a religion, whereas Sikkhism is almost entirely independent of that.__The  Khalsa, it seems, was forged very deliberately into a warrior cult or  religion in order to protect those universal, non-institutional  teachings of the Granth and to enforce its principles. A 'necessary  evil', one might say.__Of course, given  the amount of time and the proximity with which Sikkhism and its  warrior Khalsa cult have lived side-by-side has meant that many  Khalsaist influences have trickled down and eventually set upon the  now-accepted image of Sikkhism. But, in my view, the two are always  going to be essentially separate, though historically linked"

SGGS declared long ago...SAKAT SAANG na keejeayeh...DO NOT EVEN GO NEAR the NON-BELIEVER !! so the comparison to Khalsa vs non Khalsa is basically misconstrued.( The same idea is pursued here even though the DG is not GGS kirt)

2. Vengeful..wrathful "god"...NO SUCH EXISTS in the SGGS..and thus GGS wouldnt be even mentioning such a god.....as GGS is NANAK...and IF such a god doesnt exist in SGGS..its a FAKE. Entirley laughable that such a wrathful vengeful god is the one who INSISTS on so called Khalsa Rituals rehit kakaars etc !!!! This guy is DRUNK on the vengeful god of the BIBLE....who insists on human sacrifice etc..and  drinks blood...sadly no such god exists in SGGS and the NANAKS never promoted any such god.

3. 99.9% of DG is about HINDU MYTHS...devis and devtas avtaars and their lives battles...absolutely NOTHING about the KHALSA..its REHIT...Vasakhi 1699, Battles of GGS, Anandpur sahib, Bhangganni etc etc MILESTONES in GGS life are even mentioned in DG. SO IF the DG doesnt even mention Vasakhi 1699..when the KHALSA was revealed, the First ever Khanda batte dee Pahul ceremony held...HOW can it possibly be relied upon to verify the Khalsa REHIT ?? Are we just supposed to ..."read between the lines..double guess...just accept that when the Khanda is mentioned as being used by DEVI in a battle in Chandi vaar..it means the Khanda battah pahul ???  Khalsa Rehit. TOO farfetched by any circumstance...The DEVI did use a Khanda to slay her enmies.. and also used a Battah to drink their blood...so we can safely assume this ref is to the Vasakhi Pahul ceremony because khand+battah=Khalsa Rehit ??
_


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 5, 2011)

Gyani Ji I was trying to say *The Khalsa was made from Sikhs and that Sikhs are not made from Khalsa*,We must assume Max314 has read atleast a line before quoting it but we should not speculate, as he cannot defend himself here. as I copied the quote and he may not be aware of it's use . I agree we should break with convention but the question is what are the conventions of today?


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## Searching (Sep 5, 2011)

> Searching Ji ,By the same token accepting the word of one Guru is the same as accepting all as they were one Joyt .



Sinner ji
If you believe in all the Guru sahibs then there cannot be any selective accepting. Selective acceptance automatically leads to selective rejection.
We all choose a way we want to live in this world. It may or may not be in accordance with what our Guru Sahibs asked us to follow. But in order to justify our decisions sometimes we even go the extent of saying that Guru Nanak ji and Guru Gobind ji were different which is against the Sikh ideology.

Most people who become mona from being a Sikh is not because they study Sikhism deeply and then come to the conclusion that keeping kesh isn't necessary but they do it because they are manmukhs.

We all are manmukhs . I am a keshdhari Sikh but not a Amritdhari yet and do not plan on becoming one for some time to come. I do a lot of stuff that goes against the teachings of Bani. But there is no attempt at justifying it.
The only justifications is that i am weak. But till the time i don't start rejecting, there is still hope for me.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 5, 2011)

Sinner veer ji, the Khalsa is simply a "stage" in a Sikh's lifelong journey towards the Akal Purakh. Sikh is  a lifelong student...and there is no stage where it can be said..its the end...this is seen in the way SGGS progresses from Page 1 to 1429. So yes you can say that ALL Khalsa are of necessity "SIKHS"..but not all Sikhs are Khalsa YET !! A SIKH who STOPS short of a Khalsa has stopped growing...and thus he has stopped being a SIKH as well.....because a SIKH by the very definition MUST keep on GROWING..learning..studying..adopting...changing...a RIVER must always keep FLOWING...sometimes in flood and sometimes in drought..BUt it never STOPS and when/IF it ever "stops"  ..it is either drybed...or has become a pond of still water and still waters begin to stink soon.
In my opinion Gurmatt TODAY is still the exact same because the SGGS hasnt changed so the "conventions" that need "chnaging" dont exist. I dont for a moment buy the notion that a "clean shaven" sikh is the "modern" equivalent and the Khalsa roop sikh is a "fundamentalist/tradtionalist/backward/living in the past..etc etc."
A SIKH is NOT "BORN"...it has to be a Conscious VOLUNTARY decision made by the INDIVIDUAL....and IF you look at ALL the WESTERN BORN who became SIKH...made this a Conscious choice (sometimes opposed by family and friends and loss of family/friends who refuse to accept their change)..a VOLUNTARY CHOICE...to be SIKH..and the VERY FIRST THING they did is STOP SHAVING/cutting hair on head/trimming beards etc...and to begin WEARING the dastaar and Kakaars even though they havent taken PAHUL. No one forced them to do this..nobody gave them inducements or favours simply becasue SIKHS have no majority no govt no raaj no finances strong enough to do such. They came in because of LOVE of GURBANI and the :LIFESTYLE Gurmatt stands for. Latest case is a English Socialite who has done everything young english socialites do...and she adopted the Khalsa Banna/5 kakars, began to learn Gurbani/Gurmukhi attends Gurdwara married a KHALSA SIKH...no dilly dallying.."oh how can i stop clubbing...oh how can i stop shaving my legs..oh how can i give up alcohol..how can i stop sleeping around overnight..i will be "SEHAJDHAREE"...first I will slowly cut down on alcohol..go clubbing 5 days a week instead of 7....i will stop waxing my armpits but not my legs..after all i am "SEHAJDHAREE"..so I got some leeway ??? THESE are the EXACT "arguments" ( i call them DHUCHAR BAZEE ) so called "BORN SIKHS" give for trimming their beards, shaving their armpits or legs, going clubbing..sleeping around.....drinking like fish womanising etc etc....and when confronted claim they are SIKHS of SGGS...sehajdharees...on the way to becoming full blown Khalsa Sikhs..a tall fake claim if any. The INTENTION is not there. These types will ask.."Show me where its written in SGGS...prove to me which Guur wore a dastaar ?? which Guur did this and which guru did that ?? thats just to assuage their own egos that are really hurting inside..a way to justify their actions ( which is not necessary as GURMATT is Voluntary !! so no one should give a hoot...IF NOT for them claiming..NO we are SIKHS..we are followers of Guru Granth Ji and we have the RIGHT to do as we please in a Gurdwara...we are "sehajdjaree Brigade "" This FAKE outlook on Gurmatt is just as BAD...as soemone who out of the blue saw a Baba like Dhadriwallah going by and decided...OH this baba is giving out free kacherras, kirpans and a Kambal...so what the heck..lets Amrtidahree oursleves...what we got to lose...and overnight there is a "amrtidharee"...who like the 5 year old kid who got a firetruck toy as a gift..and he now imagines hes the FIRE BRIGADE...and goes about rushing around the house swinging his arms..give way give way..Fire fire...in the same manner this "Instant" Amrtidharee imagines hes been given the keys to SACH KHAND..and all those he sees trimming beards, clean shaven..etc are going straight to hell...and shoudl be chased out of the Gurdwara !! ( BTW the Kamball incident is a true one i witnessed on a bus in Punjab. I over heard soem GHONAS talking and they were saying that the "Baba Ji" from some dera or other is again giving away free Kamballs in Winter to those who amrti chhakk. 2 of them were laughing and saying..we have already collected 6 kamballs..one each for everyone in the family..no need to buy !!! The others laughed asking..kirpan kangha etc..and they replied..OH the Kirpans we sold to the stall owner at the Gurdawra..kacha haigah..we wear that  !!! when torn we will throw it away and get another set at next years amrit sanskaar ceremony. I am afraid..the Vast Majority of "amritdharees" are this type...either those that behave like..NOW i am and now i am NOT..or those that wear their Bannas and imagine they are the GURU !! Genuine types are as rare as Birds Milk.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 5, 2011)

Sinner Ji, I am sorry the person you quoted isnt here to denfend his writings..BUT I stand by assertion that he hasnt read a line of DG....because what he says is there is NOT.
Its a misconception..that when GURU GOBIND SINGH JI declares that..Khalsa mera roop hai Khaas..Khlaseh mehn karon niwas..etc he is being different. Guur Nanak Ji said the exact same thing to Bhai Lehna Ji..in fact the Name Change form Lehnna to ANGAD signifies so much more than Khalsa Mero roop hai Khaas....Lehnna ji transformed froma SIKH into the LIMB of Guru nanak Ji..ang+ad. Most people MISS the significance of this..BUT its just another Example that EVERYTHING from A-Z..100% of GURMATT SPRINGS form the Fountain Head Founder GURU NANAK...the other successors discarded their own individual names too..to ADOPT the same NANAK nom de plume...and allocated themsleves just NUMBERS to signify their "small ness" beside the Towering Sabh te Waddah Satgur NANAK jin kal raakhi Meri !!! IF one is careful enough to onserve..the Concept of PANJ SIKHS..as the BELOVED begins with GURU NANAK Ji and each successor GURU had his own Special Five Pyaras...the Kakkars in SPIRITUAL FORM also spring from GURU NANAK JI...it takes a BRAVE SIPAHI to be a SANT...and Guur nanak ji faced babar the terriblke marauder..Guru Angad ji faced the naked sword of Humayun son of Babar...Guru Arjun Ji faced the wrath of Jehangir..so on...a COWARDLY "saint" couldnt have accomplished this...in the Modern context we have literally HORDES of SANTS...but the Likes of SANT-SIPAHI Sant jarnail Singh bhindrawallah are as are as Birds Milk !! In those Times it is Bulleh Shah who writes..AGAR NA HOTEH GURU GOBIND SINGH..taan SUNNAT HOTEE SABH KEE !! This revelation coming from a MUSLIM speaks volumes..it was Guur Teg bahdur Jis supreme sacrifice and Guru Gobind Singh jis Khalsa Sikhs Sant Sipahis that stemmed the unstoppable tyranny of Aurengzeb and his successors and put and end to the total islamisation of the sub continent.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 5, 2011)

Gyani ji thankyou for engaging with me, I'm smaller in all respects but if you permit me may I respond without contention and to allay doubt. I have no doubt that Great Guru Gobind Singh Ji wore a dastaar, as did my grandfather all through the sixties and seventies in the UK.
The question is about conventionality and unorthodoxy as of today. If Guru Ji manifested today he may be very welcoming to those clean faced Sikhs as they are souls like us. I realise you want to be like Guru Gobind Singh Ji but I feel to be like him is to practice sacrifice as he is the embodiment of kurbani. If I look like him physically it is not enough , I'm a firm believer that Gurbani is eternal and so unchanging but as you see today culture and convention are subject to change the only way to survive is like that for a species and that is to adapt.All christians whether orthodox or conventional are both christian and may I go further and say all humanity are learners and so all the world is Sikh too!


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 5, 2011)

Sinner Ji..entirely acceptable.icecreamkaur


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## findingmyway (Sep 8, 2011)

Lets talk about tradition;

Sikhs were always viewed as noble. When someone needed help they found the nearest Sikh, easily done due to our visibility. Can this still apply today? YES

Sikhs are known for their integrity. Sikhs were often favoured over other racial groups for certain types of employment. Can this still apply today? YES
I read a wonderful story (maybe from a blog, I can't remember), about a white Sikh convert who kept dastaar applying for medical school. She was accepted immediately as her appearance told her interviewers that she was a person with discipline and compassion-both qualities essential for the job.

When help is needed, families advise their children to go to a Gurdwara as Sikhs will always help. I have experienced this attitude firsthand from Hindu's who emigrated from India to Australia/NZ.

The tradition is to maintain visibility so that we cannot run away and hide when righteous action is required. Is that a worthwhile tradition? YES. Is it a tradition that can be maintained in the modern world? YES. Is it a tradition that stops you doing anything? NO. Is it a tradition that discredits us? NO. Is a tradition that is not in line with Gurmat philosophy? NO.

If you can't be brave with your experience, how will you have the strength to stand up when required? Rather than conforming, we should be making mroe efforts in educating so that respect is restored to what it was. We can only educate if we are living it!!



> If I look like him physically it is not enough


Agreed. However, completely rejecting the physical aspects as it doesn't suit the follower, makes that person as big a hypocrite as those who have the physical but the not the gyaan. Being a Sikh is about learning about it all and then living it at your own pace. If you reject half of Sikhism (even if not followed) then how can you be comfortable with being a Sikh? Aren't you being judgmental to someone who chooses the appearance, when accusing them of judging you whether they do or not? Aren't you showing non acceptance and displayng the same behaviour you are condemning? no-one says you MUST cut hair but to deny thats it is a part of Sikhi is bigoted. To force people to conform whether that be to believers or non-believers is depressing!



> All christians whether orthodox or conventional are both christian and  may I go further and say all humanity are learners and so all the world  is Sikh too!


True but how many are willing to stand up and be counted? How many are willing to be honest to the world about who they are inside? How many are willing to fight (not necessarily with violence) for what they believe in and what is important to them?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 8, 2011)

ALL Christians...orthodx..etc..are keeping totally SILENT...while their Churches are being raided...their Bibles confiscated/stored in warehouses for years..and then STAMPED and serailsied before release...they follow their Jesus policy..if someone SLAPS you..turn the other cheek....if someone kicks you....turn over and invite another...despite having a BILLION Followers ISLAMIC burqa wearers keep silent...while SIKHS stand up and be counted and FIGHT for THEM ALL..a MINORITY fighting for the rights of the Majority with over 40 Govts in UNO..the Christians with over 200 Govts and the vatican State...bend over backwards...DAILY the TINY MINORITY SIKHS are in the NEWS..fighting for dastaar..fighting for Kirpan..fighting for DIGNITY and being COUNTED..despite having the Worlds Largest DEMOCRACY and its Embassies worldwide SABOTAGING them, campaigning against them..doing everything possible to derail them..paying MEDIA like Kim Bolan to write RUBBISH daily in the Press, supporting bigots like ojal dusanjh to keep harping on Sikhs as TERRORISTS...etc etc...SIKHS manage to stand TALL and DISTICT. Thats the Beauty of SIKH..Banna and bani....Those who want to cut hair and blend in..do so.No bodys stopping YOU....BUT STOP denying the others their rights and claiming whats NOT YOURS.  STOP Sabotaging them...You are free to be ANYTHING..but not SIKH.........NOT until you accept the RESPONSIBILITY.No offense meant or taken.
1. A "Sikh" who claims its Ok to cut hair/trim.and still be a "Sikh"......is doing the other a serious disservice becasue he then has to struggle harder to convince others why he cant cut and trim.. A "sikh" who claims its not necessary to go to Gurdwara...cuts the rights of another sikh who wants to go to Gurdawara...Muslims who DONT wnat to attend Mosque on Friday...DONT CLAIM its OK for a Muslim to skip mosque..Muslims who dont wnat to be circumcised..dont claim its OK.....why cant "Sikhs" be like that...you dont want to stand up and be counted..FINE..SIT DOWN and SHUT UP...becasue you are causing others trouble..


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 8, 2011)

Findingmyway ji and Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

Both of you have taken the words right out from my mouth. I remember after my first post here on page 2 where I explained why the Sikhi traditions and look are important and how they are intertwined with our Sikh history and along with the Gurmat values given to us in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, one of the responders mentioned that only an Amrtidhari would say that which put a smile on my face.:redturban:

To be very honest, I have no idea why those who are against the Sikhi look are so adamant about their own 'unlook' and some are even against those who have the Sikhi saroop. They call them old fashioned which makes me giggle because little do they know how many successful Keshadhari/Amritdhari Sikhs there are in the fashion business. Pun Intended. And there are many Keshadhari Sikhs  who are in executive positions all around the world. 

The head of Mastercard is a Keshadhari Sikh for example. ' House of Waris' is a big high end fashion house and Waris is a Keshadhari Sikh, and the line goes on and on.

It matters not if one is a Keshadhari or an Amritdhari. It seems, there is some lingering insecurity within those who are for the Sikhi 'unlook' that makes them decide that Sikhi look is not an asset but a negative thing which would close many doors for them rather than opening them.

How wrong they are!. I wish they knew that. My Sikhi look has opened so many doors around the world where ever I lived or visited then my 'unlook' would have had I had that and I am certain about that.

So, I can only reiterate to them to shed their insecurity and embrace the door opener.

I would like them to read the following:

1.http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inspirational-stories/28767-unfair-discrimination.html

2.http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/26993-the-lone-ranger.html

On a side note, this coming Sunday, my son Trimaan and I would be participating in a 9/11 Interfaith Remembrance day being held at UNLV- the local University.

We will be the only two turbaned Sikhs participating on the stage along with other faiths.

Tejwant Singh


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## kds1980 (Sep 8, 2011)

> It matters not if one is a Keshadhari or an Amritdhari. It seems, there is some lingering insecurity within those who are for the Sikhi 'unlook' that makes them decide that Sikhi look is not an asset but a negative thing which would close many doors for them rather than opening them.



It depends on what career you want to choose
May be the following guy may not agree with you
http://www.tellychakkar.com/stardiary/when-i-cut-my-hair-pursue-modelling

And the people who don't know who is he let me tell,there is popular show " Shobha somnath ki" a historical cum fictious serial about destruction of somnath temple and this guy is playing the meaty role of Ghaznavi in that


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 9, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> It depends on what career you want to choose
> May be the following guy may not agree with you
> http://www.tellychakkar.com/stardiary/when-i-cut-my-hair-pursue-modelling
> 
> And the people who don't know who is he let me tell,there is popular show " Shobha somnath ki" a historical cum fictious serial about destruction of somnath temple and this guy is playing the meaty role of Ghaznavi in that



Kds ji,

Guru Fateh and I hope you are doing well.

Pardon my ignorance but I did not get the point of your post. It has no connection to what I mentioned here where Sikhs in diaspora compete with peoples from all different hues ,faiths and looks.

Please elaborate what kind of comparison you are making so I can understand it better.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## rajneesh madhok (Sep 9, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> It depends on what career you want to choose
> May be the following guy may not agree with you
> http://www.tellychakkar.com/stardiary/when-i-cut-my-hair-pursue-modelling
> 
> And the people who don't know who is he let me tell,there is popular show " Shobha somnath ki" a historical cum fictious serial about destruction of somnath temple and this guy is playing the meaty role of Ghaznavi in that



The destruction of Somnath temple is not a fictitious episode. It is a hard fact that While Mohd.Gazanavi proceeding to attack SOMNATH Temple, the  Pujaris started HAVAN PUJA etc to stop/punish Gazanavi foolishly.Gaznavi  attacked the temple,looted the wealth,killed some people.injured some  people also.
If The Pujaris would have taken stern action then the temple would have been saved. 
The history tells us that only Ahimsa (Non Violence) is not the best way out. 
If  Pakistan  attacks India ,AHINSA can not stop it. We can not teach Pakistan the lesson of Ahimsa. 

I want All of new era with open mind think over all the pros & cons of Ahimsa (the Non-violence) aspect with open mind.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 9, 2011)

Kds Ji, Thats his personal choice...if an amritdharee wnats a career as a butcher in an abbatoir..can he remain a vegetarian ? This guy had a choice. kesh or modelling...he chose modelling. Bhai Taru Singh had a simialr choice before him..your scalp removed or conversion to islam..Bhai Sahib chose DEATH,,,had he taken the other choice he would ahve lived, married to a Mughal Princess, a huge mansion and riches..but he preferred a horrible painful death...
The Top Knotch surgeon in Ocena of Pearls faces same choice...kesh or career..at first he chose career over kesh..he soon relaised his folly... READ the LAST LINE of the Model's interview...DEEP INSIDE he "wishes" he hadnot faced the choice...thats the Bottom line...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 9, 2011)

Rajneesh Ji..pujarees never learn ..do they ?? the Lodhis were also advised that the Pujarees and mullahs would read mantras to blind Babars soldiers,a nd blunt his cannons...no such thing happened...as Guur nanak ji declares...instead Punjabfaced horrendous destruction..and the mantras havans didnt do a thing...not then.not Today...IF ever India makes the mistake of using  the likes of baba Ramdev chanting Mantras against Pakistani Jets or Chinese Atom Bombs..it will be destroyed like Somnath...India needs SIKHS on its Borders !!


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## rajneesh madhok (Sep 10, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Rajneesh Ji..pujarees never learn ..do they ?? the Lodhis were also advised that the Pujarees and mullahs would read mantras to blind Babars soldiers,a nd blunt his cannons...no such thing happened...as Guru nanak ji declares...instead Punjabfaced horrendous destruction..and the mantras havans didnt do a thing...not then.not Today...IF ever India makes the mistake of using  the likes of baba Ramdev chanting Mantras against Pakistani Jets or Chinese Atom Bombs..it will be destroyed like Somnath...India needs SIKHS on its Borders !!


Gyaniji,
Excess of everything is bad. Have a look on the discussion of Ghamdi's Talk on Terrorism. Even Ghamdi supported that the way of Ahimsa (Non-violence) followed by Gandhiji and Himsa (Violence) by Bhagat Singh 
both have remarkable role for peaceful living. So, we can't stress on only one point of discussion. 
Ghamdi Talk on Terrorism-Part 2      - YouTube
Regards,
Rajneesh


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## Harry Haller (Sep 10, 2011)

The thread that binds us with god is unique, possibly why when one has found enlightenment, it is so hard to communicate to another, like trying to fit the rear axle from a Toyota to a Ford, there is of course a common 'law' of axles, they must be round not square, made of metal, not butter. Your thread is so unique to you, it is a ladder to god made entirely out of your own DNA. 

Everything is dual, the more you push the fact that a true sikh is a keshdhari sikh, you take away something from mona sikhs and give something to keshdharis of questionable morals.Every story is different, every life has its own experiences and challenges, is it fair to have a blanket view on monas, or even keshdharis without remembering that we are talking about living breathing human beings with souls, aspirations, desires, needs,

to each his own, the rest are just words, noises, do they actually mean anything, because I am sehajdhari or not means nothing to me, nor does being labelled a sikh, or not, I refuse to be categorised, studied then labelled. These names do not change my relationship with god, nor how I define myself, I am more than happy to be called anything. 

I am getting to the stage now where things like corruption in the SPGC, some of the contents of the SRM, the conduct of our dear beloved SPGC, have convinced me that unless you actually read the SGGS and make some effort to understand it, before you implement it, then you are just another person watching a film in a cinema asking everyone else what the plot is, and who did what, and where did he come from, 

We all need to have our own thread, anything else is a false path made of butter


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