# Dancing To Shabads



## ActsOfGod (Feb 9, 2016)

Well how do you like them apples:






Shabad "Deh Shiva Bar Mohe" followed by a catchy Bhangra tune.  I wonder how many of these misguided folks could even tell the difference.

[AoG]


----------



## Harry Haller (Feb 9, 2016)

awwwwwww come on that's not fair, these are 3HO types, if your going to judge them on standard Sikh rules then it is like shooting fish in a barrel. This is actually quite tame and mild compared to some practices, in any case singing shabads and then dancing a catchy tune is not limited to Sikh weddings!

I did not know "Deh Shiva Bar Mohe" was a shabad.


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 9, 2016)

They aren't the only ones, check out these precious gems


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 10, 2016)

Oh my!


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 10, 2016)

Dancing in Guru Sahib's darbar?


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 10, 2016)

This one takes the cake.  Bhangra and dancing in Guru Sahib's Darbar.


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 10, 2016)

ਕੋਉ ਬੁਤਾਨ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੈ ਪਸੁ ਕੋਉ ਮ੍ਰਿਤਾਨ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਨ ਧਾਇਓ ॥
Some fool worships the idols and someone goes to worship the dead.

ਕੂਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਉਰਝਿਓ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਜਗ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕੋ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ॥੧੦॥੩੦॥
The whole world is entangled in false rituals and has not known the secret of Lord-God 10.30.


----------



## Jasdeep118 (Feb 10, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> ਕੋਉ ਬੁਤਾਨ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੈ ਪਸੁ ਕੋਉ ਮ੍ਰਿਤਾਨ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਨ ਧਾਇਓ ॥
> Some fool worships the idols and someone goes to worship the dead.
> 
> ਕੂਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਉਰਝਿਓ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਜਗ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕੋ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ॥੧੦॥੩੦॥
> The whole world is entangled in false rituals and has not known the secret of Lord-God 10.30.


I just feel that Sikhism will die in a couple of decades.. This fake {censored} baba's are making their own {censored}ing cults and making Sikhism look like some Ritual shit! Hell! We don't believe in rituals are pray to {censored}ing idols... Sorry for my language, I am just annoyed that these fake organisations are {censored}izing Sikhi!


----------



## Jasdeep118 (Feb 10, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> Well how do you like them apples:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uh, thats not a Shabad, that's a song


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 10, 2016)

Jasdeep118 said:


> Uh, thats not a Shabad, that's a song



At about 2min 22sec into the video, he starts singing "Soora So Pechhaniye", is that a song too?

[AoG]


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 10, 2016)

Jasdeep118 said:


> I just feel that Sikhism will die in a couple of decades.. This fake {censored word, do not repeat.} baba's are making their own {censored word, do not repeat.}ing cults and making Sikhism look like some Ritual shit! Hell! We don't believe in rituals are pray to {censored word, do not repeat.}ing idols... Sorry for my language, I am just annoyed that these fake organisations are {censored}izing Sikhi!



It's worse than you think.  Check out these folks applying tilak to Guru Granth Sahib:


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 10, 2016)

It just keeps getting weirder, and weirder:






I believe the right term is, Gobsmacked.  Yes, I'm gobsmacked.


----------



## Harry Haller (Feb 11, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> It just keeps getting weirder, and weirder:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh it gets much weirder than that, I stopped caring what other people were doing a while back, its a waste of energy and time, all you can is make sure your own actions and thoughts are as beyond reproach as possible, we are not our brothers keeper, and maybe such folk are equally as gobsmacked at our lack or ritual and ceremony. 

Or are you suggesting we all turn up armed with knives and teach them a lesson?


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 11, 2016)

harry haller said:


> Oh it gets much weirder than that, I stopped caring what other people were doing a while back, its a waste of energy and time, all you can is make sure your own actions and thoughts are as beyond reproach as possible, we are not our brothers keeper, and maybe such folk are equally as gobsmacked at our lack or ritual and ceremony.



Yes that is certainly true.



harry haller said:


> Or are you suggesting we all turn up armed with knives and teach them a lesson?



Not not at all.  I just can't fathom some of the stuff that going on in those videos, that's all.

[AoG]


----------



## Harry Haller (Feb 11, 2016)

Also, who to blame? the people? the lack of clear direction from Sikh leadership? We make a big thing of saying that ritual is pointless, we quote Guru Nanakji refusing to wear a thread, of pointing his feet at what people perceive to be god, at throwing water at fields, all in an effort to show how pointless ritual is, and then end up doing exactly the same to various degrees, I don't blame these people, I blame the state of the Sikh quom


----------



## swarn bains (Feb 11, 2016)

earlier even in 20th century some nirmale sabad keertanie used sing and dance as well with khartaals


----------



## chazSingh (Feb 11, 2016)

if its a 'i have no clue what i'm doing, and dancing like the shabad is a dance track just for the sake of pleasing a fake baba' then its beyind wrong, its just crazy

but if the existence of God becomes known to you through your own being, then who knows how one will react...through dance, through poetry, through tears, through smiles etc etc ... in this instance it doesnt matter....but the world will look upon that person and think "this dudes taking the {censored}ss" unfortunately


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Feb 11, 2016)

Guru Fateh to All.

A question to the Scholars.

Does anyone know who started and why the following is forbidden in the Gurdwaras?

1. No Applause
2. No Dancing

When a Sikh is at a forum outside the Gurdwara along with other religions and if he/she quotes from Gurbani with the right message, people do applaud.

The good Raagis Dance with their hands while sitting cross legged .

According to SGGS, our only Guru, Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent, hence no walls between Ik Ong Kaar and anything/one else. We are reminded of his/hers/its omnipresence daily when we recite/understand and practice Nitnem in our daily lives- the life of Miri-Piri. Our Piri side is only manifested through our Miri. 

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Parma (Feb 11, 2016)

Tejwant Singh said:


> A question to the Scholars.
> 
> Does anyone know who started and why the following is forbidden in the Gurdwaras?
> 
> ...



Maybe it's a sign of happiness and sadness that no one can really understand so as its a distracting force mechanism people choose to not focus on it. Then again it just seems to me that they forbid anything that makes a louder presence of the Guru Granth Sahib's shabad's in the Guru's darbar apart from lava marriage rights which even then the sangat present are acting in accordance and adherence to the prayer and blessings being asked for them. People want to judge Sikhs on activities or actions they perform they can do on that instance even I'd admit I'm a flop when it comes to being totally Gurmukh I have no shame in accepting that as I'm a Sikh and always learning as a human being but to judge the Guru Granth Sahib ji you would have to understand it. That's what helps you pick your path; Shakespeare; To be, or not, To be! To be a more sensible answer. Its always Waheguru ji ki khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fathe. Natures illusions always lose as mukti is always Gods triumph.


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Feb 11, 2016)

Parma said:


> Maybe it's a sign of happiness and sadness that no one can really understand so as its a distracting force mechanism people choose to not focus on it. Then again it just seems to me that they forbid anything that makes a louder presence of the Guru Granth Sahib's shabad's in the Guru's darbar apart from lava marriage rights which even then the sangat present are acting in accordance and adherence to the prayer and blessings being asked for them. People want to judge Sikhs on activities or actions they perform they can do on that instance even I'd admit I'm a flop when it comes to being totally Gurmukh I have no shame in accepting that as I'm a Sikh and always learning as a human being but to judge the Guru Granth Sahib ji you would have to understand it. That's what helps you pick your path; Shakespeare; To be, or not, To be! To be a more sensible answer. Its always Waheguru ji ki khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fathe. Natures illusions always lose as mukti is always Gods triumph.




Parma ji,

Guru Fateh.

I understand your sentiment. However, the applause is a sign of appreciation after the 'performance'.

Lastly regarding, "Maybe it's a sign of happiness and sadness that no one can really understand so as its a distracting force mechanism people choose to not focus on it", who are we to judge?
What is sadness for some could be self contemplation for others.


----------



## Parma (Feb 11, 2016)

Tajwant ji,

Sir your an elder by performance I do not understand what is meant. As in regards to people attending service and seva that is another issue altogether. I don't understand weird systems or understandings. I don't perform I am who I am, I am Parma Nagra. What performance? I never got paid! Sorry but when explaining something to me you have to be blunt Sir I speak plainly.


----------



## Harkiran Kaur (Feb 11, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> They aren't the only ones, check out these precious gems


 
Neeldharis?? I see the blue turbans and blue cumberbunds...


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Feb 11, 2016)

Parma said:


> Tajwant ji,
> 
> Sir your an elder by performance I do not understand what is meant. As in regards to people attending service and seva that is another issue altogether. Also I have learnt that certain performances are attributes to the failure of 3 abrahamic churches as a sign of female domination finance. I'm not here to sell or transfer orders just a human being living my life and hopefully one day the right female partner comes along to fulfill my wishes for an honest everlasting relationship. I



Parma ji,

Guru Fateh.

By 'Performace' I mean, after a heart/mind touching Keertan or Katha


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 11, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Neeldharis?? I see the blue turbans and blue cumberbunds...



Yep, complete with their own rehat too.  Ain't it just grand?

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Neeldhari_Panth#Rehat


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Feb 11, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> Yep, complete with their own rehat too.  Ain't it just grand?
> 
> http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Neeldhari_Panth#Rehat



It is a cult in the guise of Sikhi. Simply put. Otherwise they will call themselves Sikhs only.


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 11, 2016)

Tejwant Singh said:


> It is a cult in the guise of Sikhi. Simply put. Otherwise they will call themselves Sikhs only.



Tejwant ji, all these various groups and factions and internal and external enemies of the Panth have so successfully splintered the Quom and bamboozled and brainwashed the people, so that we, today, are sad witness to such pakhand and beadbi of our beloved Guru Sahib, on the very same earth that they walked not so long ago.

Some folks will blame the people for following the baba's, etc.  But that is only part of the issue.  When there is such an organized, concerted, and pervasive effort to destroy a people and their history, it's no wonder that things are in such a sorry state as they are.

I know none of this is news to you or anyone else.  But it breaks one's heart to see it, nonetheless.

Guru Sahib Kirpa karan, that we may all come to our senses, before things go beyond the pale (or perhaps they have already).  

[AoG]


----------



## Harry Haller (Feb 11, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> Tejwant ji, all these various groups and factions and internal and external enemies of the Panth have so successfully splintered the Quom and bamboozled and brainwashed the people, so that we, today, are sad witness to such pakhand and beadbi of our beloved Guru Sahib, on the very same earth that they walked not so long ago.



Your absolutely right, its all these groups fault, and they are all our enemies, how they must look at the way we run our own houses and Gurdwaras with envy!

It is easy to blame everyone else, to blame our enemies, but at the end of the day we are talking about interpretation, we ourselves commit the biggest sin by not living the SGGSji, it is worshiped, read, mumbled, it is paid to be read and mumbled, but few seem interested in living it. I refuse to condemn others practices until our own are perfect.


----------



## Parma (Feb 11, 2016)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Parma ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


----------



## chazSingh (Feb 12, 2016)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Guru Fateh to All.
> 
> A question to the Scholars.
> 
> ...



well said

religion is made to look so strict, so full of rules....for control purposes...this puts people off. its not cool to be religious or spiritual...people think you're boring.
religion is serious stuff...very important to connect to Waheguru. it should be seen as serious, but also joyous, loving, full of smiles and laughter...dance, rythm, tears of joy, tears of longing...


----------



## Ambarsaria (Feb 12, 2016)

Philosophically it is dangerous when we have expectations of others and we hate when someone expects anything of us. We see I am a free man and I do what I believe is right.

In terms of dancing, my heart dances when a shabad rendition catches a rhythm of my mind. Your hands may twitch, your big toe may jerk and your back may sway a bit. Had you closed your eyes when you were in a room where people were dancing, you probably will experience the same as people dancing.

I certainly don't like exploitation and the pressure to be like the other one that many may be put under per the videos in this thread. But if you want to limber up and do it as your heart directs you, I don't see a major issue. It might help remove some of the obesity in our sangat. Have I danced, would I dance! The answer is no.

Any way the following is not from SGGSJ but from one of Kabir ji's writings and I was kind of swaying a bit when listening to it on my computer,






There are lot of shabads in SGGSJ which if someone wants to, they could do renditions the same way. Would these be consistent with the Raags and musical attributes of the shabads, probably not.

SGGSJ is not only a reflective and serious teacher but it is also provides a joyful, energetic and enjoyable company.

Sat Sri Akal


----------



## Jasdeep118 (Feb 12, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> At about 2min 22sec into the video, he starts singing "Soora So Pechhaniye", is that a song too?
> 
> [AoG]


Er, whoops.


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 12, 2016)

harry haller said:


> Your absolutely right, its all these groups fault, and they are all our enemies, how they must look at the way we run our own houses and Gurdwaras with envy!



It's not that at all.  There have been (and still are) forces at work that are hell-bent on destroying Sikhi.  Much in the same way that Buddhism was pushed out of India, it appears that if Sikhi does not fall into the folds of Brahmanism, it too will endure a similar fate.



harry haller said:


> It is easy to blame everyone else, to blame our enemies, but at the end of the day we are talking about interpretation, we ourselves commit the biggest sin by not living the SGGSji, it is worshiped, read, mumbled, it is paid to be read and mumbled, but few seem interested in living it. I refuse to condemn others practices until our own are perfect.



That is part of the problem, yes, and self-criticism is warranted.  However, I was highlighting that it is an extreme situation which the everyday man is facing.  He isn't just backsliding because of his laziness or because he is not trying enough.  When there are forces actively engaged in your destruction, then it's very, very difficult to make any progress.  In spite of it all, yes I agree that if people started living Sikhi, then things would change.  And more and more people are in fact starting to do that, which is a positive sign.  But which also results in increased efforts to distort history and the teachings of the Gurus, and to confuse people and eradicate their way of life.

[AoG]


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 12, 2016)

Ambarsaria said:


> Philosophically it is dangerous when we have expectations of others and we hate when someone expects anything of us. We see I am a free man and I do what I believe is right.
> 
> In terms of dancing, my heart dances when a shabad rendition catches a rhythm of my mind. Your hands may twitch, your big toe may jerk and your back may sway a bit. Had you closed your eyes when you were in a room where people were dancing, you probably will experience the same as people dancing.
> 
> I certainly don't like exploitation and the pressure to be like the other one that many may be put under per the videos in this thread. But if you want to limber up and do it as your heart directs you, I don't see a major issue. It might help remove some of the obesity in our sangat. Have I danced, would I dance! The answer is no.



Ambarsaria Ji, no doubt the heart and soul are elated when you hear Gurbani.  And yes, you are free, as is everyone.

However, this is about standards.  If one were visiting the Queen of England, do you think it would be acceptable for someone to bang out some bhangra or dance a jig just because their heart felt so happy on their visit?  If it's not seen as proper decorum when paying a visit to the Queen, why does everyone seem to think it's just fine in Guru's Darbar?  And to say that it is restrictive and putting pressure on people when being asked to observe a convention or standard that in other situations people would gladly observe.  

Guru's Darbar is a royal court, and when one enters a royal court, they observe certain standards and conventions.  Those have been eroded today, and everyone seems to be more than willing to come up with a multitude of arguments to make it "ok" to do so.

Students of martial arts know that once they step onto the mat, they are to observe strict protocol in behavior and posture, etc.  They don't speak or do idle chit chat, they pay attention to and obey the _sensei_, follow his or her commands, etc.  There are conventions and standards for a purpose.  It doesn't mean the students are being exploited etc.  For any student to tell a joke to his friend or call his friend on the phone or listen to his ipod or etc. would constitute disrespect and result in him being kicked out of the class.  And yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable to do what essentially amounts to the equivalent in Guru's Darbar.

The really sad thing is that noone bats an eye.

[AoG]


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 12, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> well said
> 
> religion is made to look so strict, so full of rules....for control purposes...this puts people off. its not cool to be religious or spiritual...people think you're boring.
> religion is serious stuff...very important to connect to Waheguru. it should be seen as serious, but also joyous, loving, full of smiles and laughter...dance, rythm, tears of joy, tears of longing...



Sikhi is a way of life, a way of living, rather than a religion.

The "rules" in this case have to do with Gurus Darbar.  It is a matter of holding ourselves to the standard.  Seems like we can't even do the basics anymore.  No self-discipline, no coherence.  We all want to do our own thing willy-nilly and we come up with a million excuses why.

Remember that Guru Sahib is our spiritual as well as temporal leader.

What happens when the president walks into a room?  Everyone stands up.  Do you see people sitting around saying "Oh that's such a strict *rule* that I have to stand up for Mister President, I should be free to just sit."

Ultimately, of course it's up to you whatever you want to do.  I just hope that people remember when they go to _*Guru's Darbar*_, in whose presence they are.  It seems that everyone has forgotten, and nobody cares.

We even have people arguing about doing matha tek, saying that it is a ritual, and that they don't want to participate.

[AoG]


----------



## Ambarsaria (Feb 12, 2016)

ActsOfGod ji thanks for your post.

So that my views are clearly expressed, I do not condone any of the actions in videos you posted. I would be embarrassed if not fuming if I was part of any congregations where such things took place.

The underlying and fundamental aspect is that the organized religions around the world are exploited by opportunists. I cannot think of a religion that does not have exploitation of this type in one form another. Why it continues or even grows in strength is a question we should ask ourselves? Are they meeting a need. Are they connecting to the people the way some of them want to be connected to? Are they providing an experience of satisfaction to the needs of their congregation? Looking from outside in, probably the answer to all these questions will be big NO. 

So the fundamental issue becomes that in the big NO answer, what are we saying. Are we saying that we understand that it is wrong or we are refusing to admit, may be we don't understand or know. I hold that we do not fully understand or know. Let me cite a personal example. I was detesting the Babey and dehra phenomenon with a loved one. I felt there was a clear black and white answer to it and the answer was that it is all wrong. The person in all seriousness and honesty stated that some people have a need for such personal touch, such personal expressions, etc. I had a wow moment! Could I ever think and be like these people! These are all people like you and me and linked to the same one source that we all are. My perspective changed a bit for such people but not necessarily towards the acts with which they may be fleeced. At least that is how I would characterize some of such situations.

We must reason, we must express in love and compassion, we must make an effort if something we think could be bettered. Putting down or throwing a stone is not an effort as I am concerned. Mind you I have done lot of put downs and thrown stones in my life, so I am not putting a blame on you or anyone else who does not like what they see. Just trying to stay awake in my own conscience in order to reduce or control my possible aggravating tendencies.






Let us keep the high place and take it to even higher heights. I appreciate your efforts.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## chazSingh (Feb 12, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> Sikhi is a way of life, a way of living, rather than a religion.
> 
> The "rules" in this case have to do with Gurus Darbar.  It is a matter of holding ourselves to the standard.  Seems like we can't even do the basics anymore.  No self-discipline, no coherence.  We all want to do our own thing willy-nilly and we come up with a million excuses why.
> 
> ...



AoG have i somehow given you the impression i hold no respect for Guru Ji Darbar?

what in my reply has given you this impression?

everything done with the right intention of love, respect, joy for waheguru, longing for waheguru is ok in my eyes...acting withing boundaries and rules is amazing if you know why those things are important...

e.g. drinking alcohol....some people just stop drinking because they think 'its against our religion'

whereas now i know if i drink...i can't function properly...i'll find it hard doing anything to the best of my ability....i won't be able to sit and focus during simran...i wont be able to control my 5 thieves because the drinking makes them worse...

theres a reason why drinking is not recommended rather than it just being some kind of religious no no...or you go to hell kinda thing.

i spend many years going to the gurdwara, and doing what was expected of me...sit quietly, listen for as long as i could...matha tek...then leave and be at the pub in the evening, trying to pull girls at a nightclub...for one reason only...

only when i started living what i was listening to...did my life start to change...if we can do both...we'll be on to a winner..


----------



## Harry Haller (Feb 13, 2016)

I'm confused, Is the Guru's darbar some sort of special place that is unlike any other place on this earth?

The protocol that is demanded in Guru's darbar, is that different to protocol demanded else where?

If this is the case, then the story of Guru Nanak visiting Mecca could not possibly be true, because he seemed to be in favour of the very opposite of your point, ie, god is everywhere, to behave in a certain way within a specific location is pointless and shows no real understanding of god, how do you reconcile your opinion with that?

Are you all suggesting I show the utmost respect in front of the SGGSji, but do as I wish once I am out of range? Could someone specify the range? is it within sight of SGGSji? In the same physical building? the same street? the same town? 

I do so want to be a good Sikh, so please help me out on this


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Feb 13, 2016)

Harry Haller writes:



> Are you all suggesting I show the utmost respect in front of the SGGSji, but do as I wish once I am out of range? Could someone specify the range? is it within sight of SGGSji? In the same physical building? the same street? the same town?



Harry ji,

Guru Fateh,

These were the same questions I asked when the honchos forbade Anand Karajs in the Hotels because of the Bar/s, hence SGGS is not allowed to be taken there for the occasion which seems to me making SGGS our Idol to be worshiped rather than its teachings practiced in our daily lives.


----------



## swarn bains (Feb 14, 2016)

Followers or I say those who control the faith in every religion make their own rules for their benefit. Sikhs object to take SGGS to a hotel because they lose money. the same thing slowly slowly becomes the flaw in the faith which gives rise to another faith by finding faults with the previous one. In spite of the fact that SGGS is a divine book, we make every effort to hide in gurdwara or in public so that it remains their domain. Even on this site the administrators press hard to put the page number on every statement the audience makes. that is how the audience lose interest. Let anyone tell me how the page number creates respect for SGGS.
For your information i have been reading SGGS for the last 45 years. i have gone through it hundreds of time but I never found so much emphasis anywhere. that is the technique administrators use  to stay on top everywhere


----------



## Parma (Feb 14, 2016)

Personally I think when it comes to the Guru Granth Sahibs darbar it should be placed at a specified location like a Gurdwara regardless of the insensitivity of issue for some people simply for this matter only. The home of the Guru is a specialist place of worship in a field dedicated to God. A hotel is a home for all types of systems a Gurdwara or any type of other faith built building is totally unaffected with the rules and regulations that a faith based society may hold sacred. So unless you are going to implement a change to the hotel and the rest of the people behind you believe in your faiths vision its pointless as that not only ceases to be a hotel and loses revenue it also at the same moment becomes a temple. A building is always an empty structure depending upon how you interact and utilise it. Depending on how you intend to invest depends on the type of dividends you get to receive they wanna talk business lol. I think you need a new angle view of what you require. Below the belt. What can I say but I guess we all beg God so that makes everyone a TRAMP in the house of God. We're all beggers in the house of nature's institutions of intuition you see. So which destination is considered ordained. A hotel full of TRAMPS OR FULL OF TRUMPS YOU DECIDE. Just to make you aware you cannot stop anyone from attending to serve the Guru's grace by whoever claims to be a Sikh. Dig deeper your too shallow.


----------



## Harry Haller (Feb 14, 2016)

swarn bains said:


> Followers or I say those who control the faith in every religion make their own rules for their benefit. Sikhs object to take SGGS to a hotel because they lose money. the same thing slowly slowly becomes the flaw in the faith which gives rise to another faith by finding faults with the previous one. In spite of the fact that SGGS is a divine book, we make every effort to hide in gurdwara or in public so that it remains their domain. Even on this site the administrators press hard to put the page number on every statement the audience makes. that is how the audience lose interest. Let anyone tell me how the page number creates respect for SGGS.
> For your information i have been reading SGGS for the last 45 years. i have gone through it hundreds of time but I never found so much emphasis anywhere. that is the technique administrators use  to stay on top everywhere



No one is interested in staying on top,however, it is hugely unfair to make one line statements from the SGGS when the essence is in the whole shabad. It is not about creating respect, it is about accountability for your statements and your interpretations, it is about not using bani to justify your arguments by finding one soundbite that does not do the original meaning justice. It is about not allowing the SGGS to be used as a tool for self serving and manipulation, thats all.


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 14, 2016)

harry haller said:


> I'm confused, Is the Guru's darbar some sort of special place that is unlike any other place on this earth?
> 
> The protocol that is demanded in Guru's darbar, is that different to protocol demanded else where?
> 
> ...



Why don't you crack open a can of beer in front of Guru Granth Sahib then, and have a smoke too while you're at it.  Text your buddies, etc.  According to you, God is everywhere so anything goes in Guru's hazoori.

You totally missed the point.  

[AoG]


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 14, 2016)

swarn bains said:


> Followers or I say those who control the faith in every religion make their own rules for their benefit. Sikhs object to take SGGS to a hotel because they lose money.



Not so.  Their reasoning is this: any building that houses the Guru Granth Sahib by definition becomes a Gurudwara. Once Guru Granth Sahib has left a building, it is no longer considered a Gurudwara.  Thus, the key is the presence of Guru Granth Sahib.  By taking Guru Granth Sahib into a hotel, where there is a full bar stocked with liquor is equivalent to saying that it is approved and acceptable to have liquor in the Gurudwara.  Therefore, it is not compatible and they oppose the practice.

It's not about money at all, its about principles.

[AoG]


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Feb 14, 2016)

Swaran ji,

Guru Fateh.



> Followers or I say those who control the faith in every religion make their own rules for their benefit.



I beg to differ with you. No one controls our faith but us as individuals This is the reason there is no clergy in Sikhi. The function of the Akaal  Takhats is not the way it was originally created to be. The Jathedaars are uneducated and one of them  from Patna Sahib is a bigamist. They are the puppets of the politicians rather being the practitioners of Sikhi based on SGGS, our only Guru. All the decisions like the prohibition of  taking the SGGS to the hotels lack any Gurmat thought process.



> Sikhs object to take SGGS to a hotel because they lose money.



In Los Angeles where I lived before moving here, Gurdwaras used to charge money because the raagis also belonged to the same Gurdwara from where the SGGS was transported. Prohibition was more a dogmatic decision rather than a pragmatic one as Sikhi is.



> In spite of the fact that SGGS is a divine book, we make every effort to hide in gurdwara or in public so that it remains their domain.



I have no idea where you got that from. No one can hide SGGS. Most of the Sikh homes have a separate room for SGGS. Sikhi is an open book, so to speak.



> Even on this site the administrators press hard to put the page number on every statement the audience makes. that is how the audience lose interest. Let anyone tell me how the page number creates respect for SGGS.
> For your information i have been reading SGGS for the last 45 years. i have gone through it hundreds of time but I never found so much emphasis anywhere. that is the technique administrators use  to stay on top everywhere



Swaran ji, the reason for SPN to request full Shabads is because we would all like to know what our Guru's message is which can only be understood and then practiced if we post the whole Shabad not one liners  from it  because one liners make us talk about ourselves and  our argument by using Gurbani as a weapon rather than a tool.

Yes, many have been reading/chanting Gurbani for years but our Gurus tell us to study, understand and practice Gurbani. Reading becomes a mechanical ritual after sometime which make us parrots of Gurbani with an  ugly plumage rather than its practitioners which can only come through understanding the Gurmat message.

Lastly, I would like to add that your contributions here  at SPN are priceless.

Regards.

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Harry Haller (Feb 14, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> Why don't you crack open a can of beer in front of Guru Granth Sahib then, and have a smoke too while you're at it.  Text your buddies, etc.  According to you, God is everywhere so anything goes in Guru's hazoori.
> 
> You totally missed the point.
> 
> [AoG]



If you are the sort to drink a beer, or have a smoke, then why would you not?

Are you suggesting that Guruji only wishes us to be Sikh like in close proximity?

Do you think Guruji appreciates that we respect him, only when he is physically around?

What respect do you we show to Guruji if we do what we want, just not in front of him?

Unfortunately, my understanding of Guruji is that you respect Guruji by behaving as a good Sikh as if he was right next to you 24/7, anything else is just lip service. 

I do not pay lip service to anyone, especially not Guruji, I am as honest with him as I am with myself. 

What is the point? to go forwards or backwards?

Does Guruji wish to be respected, and even then, by being lied too, or does Guruji want us all to fulfil our potential by being in consonance with his entire creation?

If you could answer these, then we will continue my friend


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 14, 2016)

harry haller said:


> If you are the sort to drink a beer, or have a smoke, then why would you not?






harry haller said:


> Are you suggesting that Guruji only wishes us to be Sikh like in close proximity?



I never said anything of the sort.



harry haller said:


> Do you think Guruji appreciates that we respect him, only when he is physically around?
> 
> What respect do you we show to Guruji if we do what we want, just not in front of him?



Again, I never said this, you are taking things out of context.



harry haller said:


> Unfortunately, my understanding of Guruji is that you respect Guruji by behaving as a good Sikh as if he was right next to you 24/7, anything else is just lip service.
> 
> I do not pay lip service to anyone, especially not Guruji, I am as honest with him as I am with myself.



Then be a "good Sikh" everywhere, including in front of the physical bir of Guru Granth Sahib.  Don't go around defending beer-drinking and smoking as if it's fine -- instead focus on genuinely bettering yourself.



harry haller said:


> Does Guruji wish to be respected, and even then, by being lied too, or does Guruji want us all to fulfil our potential by being in consonance with his entire creation?
> 
> If you could answer these, then we will continue my friend



Don't lie, instead work on making yourself better.  This is implicit in everything I said.  I never suggested that you or anyone else should make false pretense in front of Guru Sahib, and do/behave another way elsewhere.  

You should definitely hold yourself to a higher standard and improve yourself and be who you genuinely are.  I never once advocated lying or paying lip service.

The way you are carrying on, why not just walk into the Darbar bare headed and with shoes on.  After all, that's how you behave in the world, and since God is everywhere, what difference does it make, right?

[AoG]


----------



## Parma (Feb 15, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> Why don't you crack open a can of beer in front of Guru Granth Sahib then, and have a smoke too while you're at it.  Text your buddies, etc.  According to you, God is everywhere so anything goes in Guru's hazoori.
> 
> You totally missed the point.
> 
> [AoG]



Just to further assist on this issue yeh there is a range or area for contemplating the Guru Granth Sahib ji. The Gurdwara as an obode of the Guru although god is everywhere but the sat sangat isn't. That's why contemplation is affiliated with holy destinations it is about the experience of what you are interested in acquiring. I also believe that it is about how you treat something that you feel special about. I mean we all have relationships and we show our own type of appraisel in any relationship we have but with God I guess everyone has there own unique sense but with me it is about no matter how good or bad I get or what I believe to me its about that sacred bond I feel each time I pray God is always my best friend. That's why it requires its own destination to give people the space and time to explore and experience a different destination or dimension of human experiences.


----------



## Harry Haller (Feb 15, 2016)

Then be a "good Sikh" everywhere, including in front of the physical bir of Guru Granth Sahib. Don't go around defending beer-drinking and smoking as if it's fine -- instead focus on genuinely bettering yourself.

The way you are carrying on, why not just walk into the Darbar bare headed and with shoes on. After all, that's how you behave in the world, and since God is everywhere, what difference does it make, right?

Allow me to be succinct, I live in a world where what you do, how you behave, what you think, what your agenda is, and generally  how clean your heart is, is way, way more important than whether you drink, smoke, or show respect. Anyone can show respect, anyone can do the things you have mentioned above, what it actually achieves, I am not sure, perhaps you could explain to me, and I mean that quite genuinely.


----------



## chazSingh (Feb 15, 2016)

harry haller said:


> I'm confused, Is the Guru's darbar some sort of special place that is unlike any other place on this earth?
> 
> The protocol that is demanded in Guru's darbar, is that different to protocol demanded else where?
> 
> ...



on to a winner here my friend..

behave outside a gurudwara as you would inside...
treat your body (the gurudwara) as you would the physical gurudwara building...
respect everyone else and look after people as they also have the gurudwara within them also...


----------



## ActsOfGod (Feb 16, 2016)

harry haller said:


> Allow me to be succinct, I live in a world where what you do, how you behave, what you think, what your agenda is, and generally  how clean your heart is, is way, way more important than whether you drink, smoke, or show respect. Anyone can show respect, anyone can do the things you have mentioned above, what it actually achieves, I am not sure, perhaps you could explain to me, and I mean that quite genuinely.



Here is the deal.  You are always assuming that it is mutually exclusive, i.e. that one has to necessarily be a fraud if they show any form of external respect.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that someone can have a clean heart and behave well in the world AND show appropriate respect in Gurus Darbar.  In your world, only the clean hearted people smoke and drink because the ones who don't are necessarily frauds and hypocrites and do an outward show in Gurus Darbar.

Perhaps you don't like the idea of protocol and standards being applied to you.  So you just keep going on and on about behavior and etc.  which is a different thing than what I was talking about, which is respect in Guru Sahibs Darbar.  Which you apparently don't give a toss about.

You should understand that BOTH are important.  You are also comparing apples to oranges.

OF COURSE your behavior is important, 
what you think, what your agenda is, and generally  how clean your heart is.

But respect for Guru is ALSO important.

If you don't think it's of any importance, then go ahead and throw all conventions out the window.  Why do you observe social conventions then?

It's really sad how everyone is so eager to throw out all satkaar and then claim its better to "be a good person"

As if showing respect makes one a bad person

[AoG]


----------



## Harry Haller (Feb 16, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> Here is the deal. You are always assuming that it is mutually exclusive, i.e. that one has to necessarily be a fraud if they show any form of external respect.



On balance, I would say the those that go overboard on treating the SGGS as a living Guru, rather than simply just reading it and bring it into their lives, have lost understanding of what the tenth master really mean't when he said 'Guru Manio Granth'. That is not to say that showing respect is a clear sign of fraud, but in my view, going overboard speaks volumes.

When that phrase was uttered, what was actually inferred? Did the tenth Guru envision his Sikhs reading, singing and living the SGGS, or did he envision that they would turn it into an idol and then worship it?



ActsOfGod said:


> Why is it so hard for you to believe that someone can have a clean heart and behave well in the world AND show appropriate respect in Gurus Darbar.



Appropriate respect I have no problem with, but to me, appropriate respect for the SGGS can only be shown by reading and living it, worshipping it, setting the correct temperature, treating it as a living Guru is not my understanding of Sikhism, reading it is, living it is.



ActsOfGod said:


> In your world, only the clean hearted people smoke and drink because the ones who don't are necessarily frauds and hypocrites and do an outward show in Gurus Darbar.



I have no problem with people drinking and smoking, I have met a lot of people in my life, if anything, those that were honest enough about themselves, tend to be honest about most things, I would certainly rather spend time with a smoker or a drinker who did what they wished to do, rather than someone who followed rules and regulations out of fear and respect and with no understanding other than, 'this will make god angry'. For the record, I do not smoke, and rarely drink. (its just shooting up for me these days!), I find people that follow rules tiresome, either understand and embrace what you are doing, or don't do it, is my feeling. This brings me nicely to facets of Sikhism, honesty, bravery, to see god in all, not to waste time on pointless ritual and ceremony, to accept that god is one, and can never be fully known, and to do the best we can in adopting the attributes as outlined in Mool Mantra. But what do we as Sikhs focus on? do you drink? do you smoke? do you cut your hair? I would prefer do you lie? do you see god in all, and treat all as god?  are you loyal? are you honest? can you feel others pain and happiness? and most importantly of all, are you prepared to live and let live? Sikhism is not about imposing our poor understanding on others.



ActsOfGod said:


> Perhaps you don't like the idea of protocol and standards being applied to you


your correct, I don't.



ActsOfGod said:


> o you just keep going on and on about behavior and etc. which is a different thing than what I was talking about, which is respect in Guru Sahibs Darbar. Which you apparently don't give a toss about.



The whole world is Gurus darbar to me, I am sorry if that concept offends you.



ActsOfGod said:


> If you don't think it's of any importance, then go ahead and throw all conventions out the window. Why do you observe social conventions then?



I have always felt that one should walk the walk and not just talk the talk, I have thrown all conventions out of the window, including social ones. I sit here in this shop from 6am to about midnight, 7 days a week, I have no friends, no social life, nothing. I wear whatever I wish, I say and do whatever I wish, you come into this shop, you enter my world, with its complete lack of convention and social rubbish, you either leave, or you buy a laptop, its quite simple. I live like this so I can be free, free of the constraints that dictate the lives of most people, I refuse to buy into the world as it is, its hard for me even to respect it, how can you respect a world where we talk about love, and charity, and assistance, yet in India, the home of Sikhism, its perfectly normal to walk past crowds of starving people and into a posh restaurant? You talk about people singing and dancing in front of SGGS, yet, there is a distinct lack of people willing to challenge the system, we have sold out, and the more we sell out, the more we enforce pointless rules and regulations and forget the most important.



ActsOfGod said:


> It's really sad how everyone is so eager to throw out all satkaar and then claim its better to "be a good person"
> 
> As if showing respect makes one a bad person



I don't show respect to anyone, I either respect them or I don't. Either way my actions clearly show how I feel, we live in a world where everything is for show, even respect, but when people show it, but continue to lie, cheat, steal and lust after objects, what point does it serve?

If someone comes into my shop and shows me respect, I am naturally suspicious, if they compliment me, or go out of there way to show me what a great person they are, it makes me even more suspicious, if they start buying me things and trying to make my life more comfortable, I ask myself why?

If however, they are honest with me, they have no agenda, if they treat me like they would treat themselves, without any great show or song and dance, then that is respect, the former is just a show.

Guruji knows what is show and what is not, my argument is that there is too much show in Sikhism.


----------



## chazSingh (Feb 16, 2016)

harry haller said:


> On balance, I would say the those that go overboard on treating the SGGS as a living Guru, rather than simply just reading it and bring it into their lives, have lost understanding of what the tenth master really mean't when he said 'Guru Manio Granth'. That is not to say that showing respect is a clear sign of fraud, but in my view, going overboard speaks volumes.
> 
> When that phrase was uttered, what was actually inferred? Did the tenth Guru envision his Sikhs reading, singing and living the SGGS, or did he envision that they would turn it into an idol and then worship it?



the problem with the above statement is that regardless of using the words 'on balance' you decide to highlight the negative portion of that equation only...and this forms a generalization which is powerful in forming opinions amongst the masses....most muslims are terrorists kind of thing...or take sides with the terrorists....that sort of thing

why not talk about the other side of the equation, the people that treat it like a living Guru, and also read and also live it in their daily lives...

i've met people of that ilk, i've met people on the other side of the fence also...i've met people, who with the right guidance have gone from the negative side to the positive side...and some that will just remain on the negatoive. all whilst loving their Guru as living. unless you know every individual...the truth is, we just dont know how many frauds exists amongst the real truth seekers.

Guru Ji is living...living like you just couldn't imagine...when the shabad rings loud within you, you know Guru Ji is alive. that Same shabad, that Bani that reverberated within the Physical Guru Ji's was put to paper in a form we could understand and work with...therefore it is also living, because something living nudges you, prompts you to make a change, talks to you, is there to listen and give you answers..

its 'alive' on the outside...and alive on the inside and has the power to pull you up to experience something very expansive, very infinite...the ik..


----------



## Brother Onam (Feb 17, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> if its a 'i have no clue what i'm doing, and dancing like the shabad is a dance track just for the sake of pleasing a fake baba' then its beyind wrong, its just crazy
> 
> but if the existence of God becomes known to you through your own being, then who knows how one will react...through dance, through poetry, through tears, through smiles etc etc ... in this instance it doesnt matter....but the world will look upon that person and think "this dudes taking the {censored}ss" unfortunately



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!
I like Chaz's comment. While I think it's crucial to be watchful to culture-creep, where different aspects of wordliness or non-belief start to seep in and mingle with the Sacred Way, it must be remembered that Waheguru is ecstasy. 
If people are just obediently going through motions, following entrenched rituals and never really penetrating the mundane, we may be missing the quest. The Bhagat poets who contributed so much to the substance of the Guru Granth Sahib and Sikhi came from ecstatic backgrounds. Among these were Sufis and Bhagtis who were routinely declared 'mad' or 'drunk', because they exhibited signs of mad or ecstatic behaviour. If one is genuinely in contact with immediate experience of Waheguru, I imagine dancing, laughing, crying, would be among the symptoms; breaking through the mundane illusions of Maya.
My point is, I would be cautious about being 'appalled' at spiritual behaviour that seems to violate the norm, while at the same time being very vigilant if these violations are the effect of idol-worship, Hinduism, carnality, commercialism or some other mainstream influence that serve to weaken the power of Sikhi.


----------



## Ishna (Feb 20, 2016)

I think talking in tongues would be amongst the symptoms, too.


----------



## Harry Haller (Feb 21, 2016)

talking in tongues makes no sense, unless your bill and ben


----------

