# Do Sikhs Fear God?



## Questioner (May 17, 2009)

Should a Sikh Fear God? 
Keep all anwsers to the point. Try and be honest and fair at all times and back up what u say with sources (preferably religious). Opinionated statements based on popular fallicies are NOT :welcome:. Pls StICk To THe ToPIc, Thank you.


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## dalsingh (May 17, 2009)

No, Sikhs *love* God. We leave all that fear based believing to others. :happy:


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## dalsingh (May 17, 2009)

True Sikhs do not like fear.


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## GillAUS (May 17, 2009)

Sikhs strive to do things out of love and devotion to God, not because we simply fear God's wrath.

That is the fundamental difference between Sikh philosophy and that of the Abrahamic doctrines.


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## dalsingh (May 17, 2009)

Excellent post Benjamin.

This "fear" referred to in your quote. Is this the type of fear that characterises Abrahamic faiths? Is this a fear of punishment or eternal damnation? 

Fear of a vengeful God? (nirvair)

Have you met many Sikhs? Is fear a key driving force of their faith? 

The awe Sikhs hold God in (wah) and the desire to merge back with the eternal source are driving forces of Sikhism. If there were ever people who dispised fear in general it is Sikhs. 

That being said, the only fear to condone is the fear of God. Not fear of any people or the threats of any belief systems no matter how much they claim to represent God's will. 

Be careful not to interprete the bani you did in a manner that aligns Sikhism with similar ideological concepts to that represented by Islam or Christianity. There is a major distinction and difference that must be understood. 

ਤੂੰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਜੀ ਹਰਿ ਏਕੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਮਾਣਾ ॥ 
तूं घट घट अंतरि सरब निरंतरि जी हरि एको पुरखु समाणा ॥ 
Ŧūŉ gẖat gẖat anṯar sarab niranṯar jī har eko purakẖ samāṇā. 
You are constant in each and every heart, and in all things. O Dear Lord, you are the One. 

ਇਕਿ ਦਾਤੇ ਇਕਿ ਭੇਖਾਰੀ ਜੀ ਸਭਿ ਤੇਰੇ ਚੋਜ ਵਿਡਾਣਾ ॥ 
इकि दाते इकि भेखारी जी सभि तेरे चोज विडाणा ॥ 
Ik ḏāṯe ik bẖekẖārī jī sabẖ ṯere cẖoj vidāṇā. 
Some are givers, and some are beggars. This is all Your Wondrous Play. 

ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਦਾਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਭੁਗਤਾ ਜੀ ਹਉ ਤੁਧੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ 
तूं आपे दाता आपे भुगता जी हउ तुधु बिनु अवरु न जाणा ॥ 
Ŧūŉ āpe ḏāṯā āpe bẖugṯā jī ha▫o ṯuḏẖ bin avar na jāṇā. 
You Yourself are the Giver, and You Yourself are the Enjoyer. I know no other than You. 

ਤੂੰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੇਅੰਤੁ ਬੇਅੰਤੁ ਜੀ ਤੇਰੇ ਕਿਆ ਗੁਣ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣਾ ॥ 
तूं पारब्रहमु बेअंतु बेअंतु जी तेरे किआ गुण आखि वखाणा ॥ 
Ŧūŉ pārbarahm be▫anṯ be▫anṯ jī ṯere ki▫ā guṇ ākẖ vakẖāṇā. 
You are the Supreme Lord God, Limitless and Infinite. What Virtues of Yours can I speak of and describe? 

ਜੋ ਸੇਵਹਿ ਜੋ ਸੇਵਹਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਜੀ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਨ ਕੁਰਬਾਣਾ ॥੨॥ 
जो सेवहि जो सेवहि तुधु जी जनु नानकु तिन कुरबाणा ॥२॥ 
Jo sevėh jo sevėh ṯuḏẖ jī jan Nānak ṯin kurbāṇā. ||2|| 
Unto those who serve You, unto those who serve You, Dear Lord, servant Nanak is a sacrifice. ||2|| 

ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵਹਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਜੀ ਸੇ ਜਨ ਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਸੁਖਵਾਸੀ ॥ 
हरि धिआवहि हरि धिआवहि तुधु जी से जन जुग महि सुखवासी ॥ 
Har ḏẖi▫āvahi har ḏẖi▫āvahi ṯuḏẖ jī se jan jug mėh sukẖvāsī. 
Those who meditate on You, Lord, those who meditate on You-those humble beings dwell in peace in this world. 

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੇ


> *ਸੇ **ਮੁਕਤੁ **ਸੇ **ਮੁਕਤੁ **ਭਏ **ਜਿਨ **ਹਰਿ **ਧਿਆਇਆ **ਜੀ **ਤਿਨ **ਤੂਟੀ **ਜਮ **ਕੀ **ਫਾਸੀ **॥*http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੇhttp://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੇ
> *से मुकतु से मुकतु भए जिन हरि धिआइआ जी तिन तूटी जम की फासी ॥ *
> *Se mukaṯ se mukaṯ bẖa▫e jin har ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā jī ṯin ṯūtī jam kī fāsī. *
> *They are liberated, they are liberated-those who meditate on the Lord. For them, the noose of death is cut away. *
> ...


http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੇ

ਜਿਨ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਜਿਨ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਸਮਾਸੀ ॥ 
जिन सेविआ जिन सेविआ मेरा हरि जी ते हरि हरि रूपि समासी ॥ 
Jin sevi▫ā jin sevi▫ā merā har jī ṯe har har rūp samāsī. 
Those who serve, those who serve my Dear Lord, are absorbed into the Being of the Lord, Har, Har. 

ਸੇ ਧੰਨੁ ਸੇ ਧੰਨੁ ਜਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਜੀ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਨ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਸੀ ॥੩॥ 
से धंनु से धंनु जिन हरि धिआइआ जी जनु नानकु तिन बलि जासी ॥३॥ 
Se ḏẖan se ḏẖan jin har ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā jī jan Nānak ṯin bal jāsī. ||3|| 
Blessed are they, blessed are they, who meditate on their Dear Lord. Servant Nanak is a sacrifice to them. ||3|| 

ਤੇਰੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਭੰਡਾਰ ਜੀ ਭਰੇ ਬਿਅੰਤ ਬੇਅੰਤਾ ॥ 
तेरी भगति तेरी भगति भंडार जी भरे बिअंत बेअंता ॥ 
Ŧerī bẖagaṯ ṯerī bẖagaṯ bẖandār jī bẖare bi▫anṯ be▫anṯā. 
Devotion to You, devotion to You, is a treasure overflowing, infinite and beyond measure. 

ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਸਲਾਹਨਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਜੀ ਹਰਿ ਅਨਿਕ ਅਨੇਕ ਅਨੰਤਾ ॥ 
तेरे भगत तेरे भगत सलाहनि तुधु जी हरि अनिक अनेक अनंता ॥ 
Ŧere bẖagaṯ ṯere bẖagaṯ salāhan ṯuḏẖ jī har anik anek ananṯā. 
Your devotees, Your devotees praise You, Dear Lord, in many and various and countless ways. 

ਤੇਰੀ ਅਨਿਕ ਤੇਰੀ ਅਨਿਕ ਕਰਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਜੀ ਤਪੁ ਤਾਪਹਿ ਜਪਹਿ ਬੇਅੰਤਾ ॥ 
तेरी अनिक तेरी अनिक करहि हरि पूजा जी तपु तापहि जपहि बेअंता ॥ 
Ŧerī anik ṯerī anik karahi har pūjā jī ṯap ṯāpėh jāpėh be▫anṯā. 
For You, many, for You, so very many perform worship services, O Dear Infinite Lord; they practice disciplined meditation and chant endlessly. 

ਤੇਰੇ ਅਨੇਕ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਨੇਕ ਪੜਹਿ ਬਹੁ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਜੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਿਆ ਖਟੁ ਕਰਮ ਕਰੰਤਾ ॥ 
तेरे अनेक तेरे अनेक पड़हि बहु सिम्रिति सासत जी करि किरिआ खटु करम करंता ॥ 
Ŧere anek ṯere anek paṛėh baho simriṯ sāsaṯ jī kar kiri▫ā kẖat karam karanṯā. 
For You, many, for You, so very many read the various Simritees and Shaastras. They perform rituals and religious rites. 

ਸੇ ਭਗਤ ਸੇ ਭਗਤ ਭਲੇ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀ ਜੋ ਭਾਵਹਿ ਮੇਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਵੰਤਾ ॥੪॥ 
से भगत से भगत भले जन नानक जी जो भावहि मेरे हरि भगवंता ॥४॥ 
Se bẖagaṯ se bẖagaṯ bẖale jan Nānak jī jo bẖāvėh mere har bẖagvanṯā. ||4|| 
Those devotees, those devotees are sublime, O servant Nanak, who are pleasing to my Dear Lord God. ||4|| 

ਤੂੰ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਅਪਰੰਪਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀ ਤੁਧੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥ 
तूं आदि पुरखु अपर्मपरु करता जी तुधु जेवडु अवरु न कोई ॥ 
Ŧūŉ āḏ purakẖ aprampar karṯā jī ṯuḏẖ jevad avar na ko▫ī. 
You are the Primal Being, the Most Wonderful Creator. There is no other as Great as You. 

ਤੂੰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਤੂੰ ਏਕੋ ਜੀ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਸੋਈ ॥ 
तूं जुगु जुगु एको सदा सदा तूं एको जी तूं निहचलु करता सोई ॥ 
Ŧūŉ jug jug eko saḏā saḏā ṯūŉ eko jī ṯūŉ nihcẖal karṯā so▫ī. 
Age after age, You are the One. Forever and ever, You are the One. You never change, O Creator Lord. 

ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਵਰਤੈ ਜੀ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੁ ਹੋਈ ॥ 
तुधु आपे भावै सोई वरतै जी तूं आपे करहि सु होई ॥ 
Ŧuḏẖ āpe bẖāvai so▫ī varṯai jī ṯūŉ āpe karahi so ho▫ī. 
Everything happens according to Your Will. You Yourself accomplish all that occurs. 

ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਭ ਉਪਾਈ ਜੀ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਿਰਜਿ ਸਭ ਗੋਈ ॥ 
तुधु आपे स्रिसटि सभ उपाई जी तुधु आपे सिरजि सभ गोई ॥ 
Ŧuḏẖ āpe sarisat sabẖ upā▫ī jī ṯuḏẖ āpe siraj sabẖ go▫ī. 
You Yourself created the entire universe, and having fashioned it, You Yourself shall destroy it all. 

ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੇ ਜੀ ਜੋ ਸਭਸੈ ਕਾ ਜਾਣੋਈ ॥੫॥੧॥ 
जनु नानकु गुण गावै करते के जी जो सभसै का जाणोई ॥५॥१॥ 
Jan Nānak guṇ gāvai karṯe ke jī jo sabẖsai kā jāṇo▫ī. ||5||1|| 
Servant Nanak sings the Glorious Praises of the Dear Creator, the Knower of all. ||5||1||


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## dalsingh (May 17, 2009)

Look at references to fear in bani holistically. From my understanding (which could be wrong), we fear God with the ultimate aim of eradicating all of our fears and living in a sehaj state. 

If fear is an early motivator, shabad is designed to ultimately destroy it within a Sikh. Does this make sense?


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## dalsingh (May 17, 2009)

Waheguru is the destroyer of our fears!  

ਸ੍ਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
स्रीरागु महला ५ ॥ 
Sarīrāg mėhlā 5. 
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl: 

ਸੋਈ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਜੀਅੜੇ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਾਹਾਂ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ॥ 
सोई धिआईऐ जीअड़े सिरि साहां पातिसाहु ॥ 
So▫ī ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai jī▫aṛe sir sāhāŉ pāṯisāhu. 
Meditate on Him, O my soul; He is the Supreme Lord over kings and emperors. 

ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਕਰਿ ਆਸ ਮਨ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਸਭਸੁ ਵੇਸਾਹੁ ॥ 
तिस ही की करि आस मन जिस का सभसु वेसाहु ॥ 
Ŧis hī kī kar ās man jis kā sabẖas vesāhu. 
Place the hopes of your mind in the One, in whom all have faith. 

ਸਭਿ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਛਡਿ ਕੈ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਚਰਣੀ ਪਾਹੁ ॥੧॥ 
सभि सिआणपा छडि कै गुर की चरणी पाहु ॥१॥ 
Sabẖ si▫āṇpā cẖẖad kai gur kī cẖarṇī pāhu. ||1|| 
Give up all your clever tricks, and grasp the Feet of the Guru. ||1|| 

ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜ ਸੇਤੀ ਜਪਿ ਨਾਉ ॥ 
मन मेरे सुख सहज सेती जपि नाउ ॥ 
Man mere sukẖ sahj seṯī jap nā▫o. 
O my mind, chant the Name with intuitive peace and poise. 

ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਤੂੰ ਗੁਣ ਗੋਇੰਦ ਨਿਤ ਗਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
आठ पहर प्रभु धिआइ तूं गुण गोइंद नित गाउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Āṯẖ pahar parabẖ ḏẖi▫ā▫e ṯūŉ guṇ go▫inḏ niṯ gā▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
Twenty-four hours a day, meditate on God. Constantly sing the Glories of the Lord of the Universe. ||1||Pause|| 

ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਸਰਨੀ ਪਰੁ ਮਨਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
तिस की सरनी परु मना जिसु जेवडु अवरु न कोइ ॥ 
Ŧis kī sarnī par manā jis jevad avar na ko▫e. 
Seek His Shelter, O my mind; there is no other as Great as He. 

ਜਿਸੁ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ਘਣਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਦਰਦੁ ਨ ਮੂਲੇ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
जिसु सिमरत सुखु होइ घणा दुखु दरदु न मूले होइ ॥ 
Jis simraṯ sukẖ ho▫e gẖaṇā ḏukẖ ḏaraḏ na mūle ho▫e. 
Remembering Him in meditation, a profound peace is obtained. Pain and suffering will not touch you at all. 

ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਕਰਿ ਚਾਕਰੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥ 
सदा सदा करि चाकरी प्रभु साहिबु सचा सोइ ॥२॥ 
Saḏā saḏā kar cẖākrī parabẖ sāhib sacẖā so▫e. ||2|| 
Forever and ever, work for God; He is our True Lord and Master. ||2|| 

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਕਟੀਐ ਜਮ ਕੀ ਫਾਸ ॥ 
साधसंगति होइ निरमला कटीऐ जम की फास ॥ 
Sāḏẖsangaṯ ho▫e nirmalā katī▫ai jam kī fās. 
In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you shall become absolutely pure, and the noose of death shall be cut away. 

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ*



ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਭੈ ਭੰਜਨੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਕਰਿ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾhttp://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ 
सुखदाता भै भंजनो तिसु आगै करि अरदासि ॥ 
Sukẖ▫ḏāṯa bẖai bẖanjno ṯis āgai kar arḏās. 
So offer your prayers to Him, the Giver of Peace, the Destroyer of fear. 

Click to expand...

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ*http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ

ਮਿਹਰ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਸੁ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨੁ ਤਾਂ ਕਾਰਜੁ ਆਵੈ ਰਾਸਿ ॥੩॥ 
मिहर करे जिसु मिहरवानु तां कारजु आवै रासि ॥३॥ 
Mihar kare jis miharvān ṯāŉ kāraj āvai rās. ||3|| 
Showing His Mercy, the Merciful Master shall resolve your affairs. ||3|| 

ਬਹੁਤੋ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਵਖਾਣੀਐ ਊਚੋ ਊਚਾ ਥਾਉ ॥ 
बहुतो बहुतु वखाणीऐ ऊचो ऊचा थाउ ॥ 
Bahuṯo bahuṯ vakẖāṇī▫ai ūcẖo ūcẖā thā▫o. 
The Lord is said to be the Greatest of the Great; His Kingdom is the Highest of the High. 

ਵਰਨਾ ਚਿਹਨਾ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਾਉ ॥ 
वरना चिहना बाहरा कीमति कहि न सकाउ ॥ 
varnā cẖihnā bāhrā kīmaṯ kahi na sakā▫o. 
He has no color or mark; His Value cannot be estimated. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਦੇਵਹੁ ਅਪੁਣਾ ਨਾਉ ॥੪॥੭॥੭੭॥ 
नानक कउ प्रभ मइआ करि सचु देवहु अपुणा नाउ ॥४॥७॥७७॥ 
Nānak ka▫o parabẖ ma▫i▫ā kar sacẖ ḏevhu apuṇā nā▫o. ||4||7||77|| 
Please show Mercy to Nanak, God, and bless him with Your True Name. ||4||7||77||


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## dalsingh (May 17, 2009)

Benjamin

Before I respond, please answer my 2 simple questions:

(1) Are you a Muslim who believes in the Prophet Mohhammad?
(2) Are you here to learn about Sikhism or do dawa?


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## Randip Singh (May 17, 2009)

benjamin_chaudry said:


> *No, Sikhs **love God. We leave all that fear based believing to others. :happy:
> True Sikhs do not like fear.
> 
> That is the fundamental difference between Sikh philosophy and that of the Abrahamic doctrines.         *
> ...



I have just been reading the Gurmukhi and version and there is something lost in translation. The word should be more like say when someone is about to dive off a high spring board and one has apprehension/fear/respect kind of thing. Its more like a healthy respect.

It is not like the Abrahamic God where one should fear God vengeance fire and brimstone.


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## dalsingh (May 17, 2009)

Benjamin 

Look at all of the returns on fear in your search. Do you not see the message that God removes all fears once a certain level of spirituality is achieved? 

Plus can anyone tell me if it is a big sin for a Muslim to deny his/her faith?


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## spnadmin (May 17, 2009)

randip singh said:


> I have just been reading the Gurmukhi and version and there is something lost in translation. The word should be more like say when someone is about to dive off a high spring board and one has apprehension/fear/respect kind of thing. Its more like a healthy respect.
> 
> It is not like the Abrahamic God where one should fear God vengeance fire and brimstone.



Randip ji

I agree with you analysis. The "fear" of retribution is not a Sikh concept. The fear mentioned here is akin to "awe" -- as we submit in awe to His greatness before us. I will find the Sanskrit derivation to make this point clear in a few minutes.


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## dalsingh (May 17, 2009)

benjamin_chaudry said:


> *The word should be more like say when someone is about to dive off a high spring board and one has apprehension/fear/respect kind of thing*
> Isn't that a fear for heights though? or water or something other than God?
> 
> I typed in 'fear' on a sggs website and found this verse though.
> ...


 

Benjamin, I looked further into one of the shabads you quoted above and found this. Look who it's addressed to.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੪ ॥
सिरीरागु महला १ घरु ४ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4.
Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:
ਸੋਈ ਮਉਲਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਗੁ ਮਉਲਿਆ ਹਰਿਆ ਕੀਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ ॥
सोई मउला जिनि जगु मउलिआ हरिआ कीआ संसारो ॥
So▫ī ma▫ulā jin jag ma▫oli▫ā hari▫ā kī▫ā sansāro.
He is the Master who has made the world bloom; He makes the Universe blossom forth, fresh and green.
ਆਬ ਖਾਕੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਬੰਧਿ ਰਹਾਈ ਧੰਨੁ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੋ ॥੧॥
आब खाकु जिनि बंधि रहाई धंनु सिरजणहारो ॥१॥
Āb kẖāk jin banḏẖ rahā▫ī ḏẖan sirjaṇhāro. ||1||
He holds the water and the land in bondage. Hail to the Creator Lord! ||1||



> ਮਰਣਾ ਮੁਲਾ ਮਰਣਾ ॥
> 
> मरणा मुला मरणा ॥
> 
> ...


 
ਤਾ ਤੂ ਮੁਲਾ ਤਾ ਤੂ ਕਾਜੀ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਖੁਦਾਈ ॥
ता तू मुला ता तू काजी जाणहि नामु खुदाई ॥
Ŧā ṯū mulā ṯā ṯū kājī jāṇėh nām kẖuḏā▫ī.
You are a Mullah, and you are a Qazi, only when you know the Naam, the Name of God.
ਜੇ ਬਹੁਤੇਰਾ ਪੜਿਆ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਕੋ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਭਰੀਐ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥
जे बहुतेरा पड़िआ होवहि को रहै न भरीऐ पाई ॥२॥
Je bahuṯerā paṛi▫ā hovėh ko rahai na bẖarī▫ai pā▫ī. ||2||
You may be very educated, but no one can remain when the measure of life is full. ||2||
ਸੋਈ ਕਾਜੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਆਪੁ ਤਜਿਆ ਇਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਕੀਆ ਆਧਾਰੋ ॥
सोई काजी जिनि आपु तजिआ इकु नामु कीआ आधारो ॥
So▫ī kājī jin āp ṯaji▫ā ik nām kī▫ā āḏẖāro.
He alone is a Qazi, who renounces selfishness and conceit, and makes the One Name his Support.
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਜਾਇ ਨ ਜਾਸੀ ਸਚਾ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੋ ॥੩॥
है भी होसी जाइ न जासी सचा सिरजणहारो ॥३॥
Hai bẖī hosī jā▫e na jāsī sacẖā sirjaṇhāro. ||3||
The True Creator Lord is, and shall always be. He was not born; He shall not die. ||3||
ਪੰਜ ਵਖਤ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਹਿ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਕੁਰਾਣਾ ॥
पंज वखत निवाज गुजारहि पड़हि कतेब कुराणा ॥
Panj vakẖaṯ nivāj gujārėh paṛėh kaṯeb kurāṇā.
You may chant your prayers five times each day; you may read the Bible and the Koran.
ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਗੋਰ ਸਦੇਈ ਰਹਿਓ ਪੀਣਾ ਖਾਣਾ ॥੪॥੨੮॥
नानकु आखै गोर सदेई रहिओ पीणा खाणा ॥४॥२८॥
Nānak ākẖai gor saḏe▫ī rahi▫o pīṇā kẖāṇā. ||4||28||
Says Nanak, the grave is calling you, and now your food and drink are finished. ||4||28||


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## spnadmin (May 17, 2009)

भी करतारहु डरणा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Bẖī karṯārahu darṇā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
so live in the Fear of God the Creator. ||1||Pause||

Dalsingh ji

Thank you for giving the context of the shabad. The test would be if the Sanskrit source of darna fits this vaar -- as we know that the mullah is being asked to reconsider his egotistical and prideful attitude. Especially in the context of the spectre of death which domes to the powerful as well as to the weak. 

Darna in Sanskirt (originally daraaNaa)- not fear but fixed attention, contemplation. So would fear in this instance imply not to the emotion of fear and flight, but rather a caution to the Mullah to Live in "rapt attention, fixed attention, riven in contemplation of the Creative Divine who is more powerful than any mullah?  Not so much fear as submission to the vision of greatness. Best i can do.


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## dalsingh (May 17, 2009)

Aad ji

That is really well put and actually gets closer to how I perceive the nature of this "fear" to be, than I could have ever expressed myself! 

Is it that we "fear" God in a way that reminds us of them constantly and of our relative insignificance in this universe? It is not dread!

The bani that we are looking at is obviously addressed to a Mullah. I get the impression Guru ji is referring to the cleric type who is full of ego over his education/intelligence and ritualistic adherence to prescribed prayers. It is a warning essentially.


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## Tejwant Singh (May 17, 2009)

Benjamin Chaudry,

Guru fateh.

You claim to be a Christian but Chaudry is not a Christian name. It is a Muslim name, so one wonders why this discrepency.

BTW, Where in India do you live and when did your parents convert to Christianity and why? Were they low caste Hindus?

The reason I am asking this is to I can understand you better.

You write:



> Do Sikhs ever fear displeasing God? Does God ever punish those who displease Him?





 Before I can respond to that, I would like you to tell me the way you see God and is God sans duality?

Hope to learn from each other.

Tejwant Singh


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## Randip Singh (May 18, 2009)

benjamin_chaudry said:


> *The word should be more like say when someone is about to dive off a high spring board and one has apprehension/fear/respect kind of thing
> *[SIZE=-1]Isn't that a fear for heights though? or water or something other than God?[/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]
> I typed in 'fear' on a sggs website and found this verse though.
> ...



The word in Gurmukhi is "Bhai" pronounced Bhaay, and it is not like "Darnaa"!

I think another point to note is Dal Singh's point, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji addresses different audiences at different points. Bare that in mind.

Note where Darna is used in the second line it is addressing a Muslim:


ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੧  ਘਰੁ  ੪  ॥ 
सिरीरागु महला १ घरु ४ ॥ 
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4. 
Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House: 

ਸੋਈ  ਮਉਲਾ  ਜਿਨਿ  ਜਗੁ  ਮਉਲਿਆ  ਹਰਿਆ  ਕੀਆ  ਸੰਸਾਰੋ  ॥ 
सोई मउला जिनि जगु मउलिआ हरिआ कीआ संसारो ॥ 
So▫ī ma▫ulā jin jag ma▫oli▫ā hari▫ā kī▫ā sansāro. 
He is the Master who has made the world bloom; He makes the Universe blossom forth, fresh and green. 

ਆਬ  ਖਾਕੁ  ਜਿਨਿ  ਬੰਧਿ  ਰਹਾਈ  ਧੰਨੁ  ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੋ  ॥੧॥ 
आब खाकु जिनि बंधि रहाई धंनु सिरजणहारो ॥१॥ 
Āb kẖāk jin banḏẖ rahā▫ī ḏẖan sirjaṇhāro. ||1|| 
He holds the water and the land in bondage. Hail to the Creator Lord! ||1|| 

ਮਰਣਾ  ਮੁਲਾ  ਮਰਣਾ  ॥ 
मरणा मुला मरणा ॥ 
Marṇā mulā marṇā. 
Death, O Mullah-death will come, 

ਭੀ  ਕਰਤਾਰਹੁ  ਡਰਣਾ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
भी करतारहु डरणा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Bẖī karṯārahu darṇā. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
so live in the Fear of God the Creator. ||1||Pause|| 

ਤਾ  ਤੂ  ਮੁਲਾ  ਤਾ  ਤੂ  ਕਾਜੀ  ਜਾਣਹਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਖੁਦਾਈ  ॥ 
ता तू मुला ता तू काजी जाणहि नामु खुदाई ॥ 
Ŧā ṯū mulā ṯā ṯū kājī jāṇėh nām kẖuḏā▫ī. 
You are a Mullah, and you are a Qazi, only when you know the Naam, the Name of God. 

ਜੇ  ਬਹੁਤੇਰਾ  ਪੜਿਆ  ਹੋਵਹਿ  ਕੋ  ਰਹੈ  ਨ  ਭਰੀਐ  ਪਾਈ  ॥੨॥ 
जे बहुतेरा पड़िआ होवहि को रहै न भरीऐ पाई ॥२॥ 
Je bahuṯerā paṛi▫ā hovėh ko rahai na bẖarī▫ai pā▫ī. ||2|| 
You may be very educated, but no one can remain when the measure of life is full. ||2|| 

ਸੋਈ  ਕਾਜੀ  ਜਿਨਿ  ਆਪੁ  ਤਜਿਆ  ਇਕੁ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਕੀਆ  ਆਧਾਰੋ  ॥ 
सोई काजी जिनि आपु तजिआ इकु नामु कीआ आधारो ॥ 
So▫ī kājī jin āp ṯaji▫ā ik nām kī▫ā āḏẖāro. 
He alone is a Qazi, who renounces selfishness and conceit, and makes the One Name his Support. 

ਹੈ  ਭੀ  ਹੋਸੀ  ਜਾਇ  ਨ  ਜਾਸੀ  ਸਚਾ  ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੋ  ॥੩॥ 
है भी होसी जाइ न जासी सचा सिरजणहारो ॥३॥ 
Hai bẖī hosī jā▫e na jāsī sacẖā sirjaṇhāro. ||3|| 
The True Creator Lord is, and shall always be. He was not born; He shall not die. ||3|| 

ਪੰਜ  ਵਖਤ  ਨਿਵਾਜ  ਗੁਜਾਰਹਿ  ਪੜਹਿ  ਕਤੇਬ  ਕੁਰਾਣਾ  ॥ 
पंज वखत निवाज गुजारहि पड़हि कतेब कुराणा ॥ 
Panj vakẖaṯ nivāj gujārėh paṛėh kaṯeb kurāṇā. 
You may chant your prayers five times each day; you may read the Bible and the Koran. 

ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਆਖੈ  ਗੋਰ  ਸਦੇਈ  ਰਹਿਓ  ਪੀਣਾ  ਖਾਣਾ  ॥੪॥੨੮॥ 
नानकु आखै गोर सदेई रहिओ पीणा खाणा ॥४॥२८॥ 
Nānak ākẖai gor saḏe▫ī rahi▫o pīṇā kẖāṇā. ||4||28|| 
Says Nanak, the grave is calling you, and now your food and drink are finished. ||4||28||


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 18, 2009)

Bhaiy is also used for DISCIPLINE...LAW of the Creator...see Asa dee Vaar....the Sun and the Moon obey the Laws of God....meaning they follwo Laws of Gravity etc set in motion by the Creator...
How can we say the Sun is Darna ?? Scared ??  Fears ?? Certainly this is not the ususal Fear ??

The biblical religions instill FEAR.....of retribution..Hell Fires and Brimstones..on those who DISOBEY ???
Clear that thsi is NOT what Gurbani says about Bhaiy....not by a thousand  billion miles...


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## dalsingh (May 19, 2009)

Benjamin

You must understand that a central concept of Sikhi is estrangement from God. The aim of a practicing Sikh is to overcome this estrangement and become what I can only described as God centred, or one with God. 

Now that I've thought about your question I realise the initial motivation for this desire to exist in the truthful realm of God (sachkhand) varies from person to person. Yes, for some it may well be fear, for many others it will be a decision based on love. For others still it may be a path they tred following personal development. Do you understand that? 

Then from my understanding, as you read earlier, once a person progresses on this journey their state of existence alters in many ways. This can only be experienced and not fully described in words. One of the things that happens is all fear is lost. You can see this in the actions of deeply devout Sikh warriors and our Gurus.

So this centralisation of fear doesn't really apply to Sikh ideology. The fact that you are not flowing with God's hukum is considered punishment enough. 

I think you have heard enough to continue your studies a bit more independently now Danny. Many useful books are available and the Internet is full of resources. Ultimately, realise that we cannot answer all of your quesions, as we too are on our own personal journey of discovery. Continue studying if you feel it. 

Hope this helps!


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## Randip Singh (May 19, 2009)

benjamin_chaudry said:


> *Bhaiy is also used for DISCIPLINE...LAW of the Creator*
> So bhaiy is used for discipline/law and fear at the same time? I'm sorry but thats confusing me. I have found many verses where bhai means fear but I can't find 1 verse where bhaiy is used for discipline/law. Can I see the verse from 'Asa dee Vaar'? This isn't important though, I want to know more about how Sikhs fear(bhai/darna) God.
> 
> no one answered again...!  Tejwant ji, *aad0002* maybe?
> ...



People are explaining but you are missing the points. You are losing something in translation.

You used the analogy that I used of a diver, and you said that the diver must be fearful. If the person who climbed at the top was in fear because he she was going to jump off to take their life, that is darna.

Bhay is when the diver goes to the top, he has an apprehension, but he has dived many a time so he has faith. Bhay is like someone has something like "butterflies in the stomach".:happy:

Fear Darna, is like when someone is about to dirty their trousers. 

Two very different things. It is darna that the Guru talks to the Mullah about because that is the type of God the Mullah knows.

For a Sikh, the God he knows is like "butterfly's in the stomach".


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## Randip Singh (May 19, 2009)

benjamin_chaudry said:


> My question goes unanswered again  Maybe u've lost interest in the topic. I guess I'll have to answer my question from the responses so far.
> 
> Do Sikhs ever fear displeasing God?
> 
> ...



The concept of heaven and hell in Sikhism is metaphorical.

Sikhism talks about controlling the 5 thieves, that would leave self willed (Munmukh) rather the God willed (Gurmukh).

The 5 thieves are Obsession with sex (Kaam), Rancor/Anger/Stubborness (Krodh), Obsession with Material things (Moh), gluttony, Greed, wanting more than ones fair share (Lobh), and Egotism/bigheadness/bloated pride (Hankaar).

Sikhs believe each and everyone has God residing within us, and if one tunes on own internal dial to the "Gurmukh setting" where one controls the thieves then one becomes God realised/Truth realised. One lives in heaven.

If one is engrossed by even one of the 5 thieves one lives as self centered and consumed with negativity and in a state of hell.

In other words, God has given us choices to go one way or the other. It is up to us to find that God. The Sikh concept of God is to layout before you the path's and for you yourself to choose. You in effect punish yourself if you choose.

I don't know whether you have seen someone die, but unfortunately I have witnessed a few too many recently, and those that have been obsessed their entire lives with the 5 thieves to a man have had pained looks on their faces, wheras those that have not have looked peaceful. So make of that what you want.


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## dalsingh (May 19, 2009)

> Fear Darna, is like when someone is about to dirty their trousers.


 
hee hee hee


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## spnadmin (May 19, 2009)

Randip ji

So true! So true!


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## dalsingh (May 20, 2009)

> To ignore and forget God's punishments is to be careless and foolish in our actions - (its easier to drink alcohol or gamble when a non punishing God rules!) So in that sense I think it's healthy for the soul to fear Gods punishment. I'm quite sure Fear is not the central rule of any Abrahamic religion, I;ve been told its Love. but i think thts another topic


 
Yes okay, but many "God fearing" Muslims, for instance, have raped women and partaken in slave trading whilst they have claimed to be "God fearing", as the tenants of their faith is a bit lax in this area, offering them the opportunity to do this with minimal penalty in their minds. Christians too have been engaged in such actions on a large scale. 

The examples you gave (gambling and alcohol) give a clear demonstration of how certain things are prohibited by certain religions, whilst other vile things are excused. That is what happens when you follow religion like a brainless lemming and not a reflecting conscious being.

A central concept of Sikhis is inner reflection and attunement with God's righteousness. This guides.


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## dalsingh (May 21, 2009)

Hey man, I don't really see myself as an exempler Sikh so it's cool. I'm just trying to understand and discover myself. Then apply, which is the hardest bit.

I'm glad you got your answers. And on reflection I'm glad you asked some of the questions you did because thinking about them made me aware of certain things that I had never thought of.

Something I learnt is that fear of God alone doesn't lead to a righteous life. I know many fundamentalists are driven by the fear of a punishing God and damnation. So you can clearly say they fear God. Despite this, their actions can sometimes become twisted and cruel, bordering on the extremes of inhumanity. This is because their faith (or at least how they interpret it), explicitly dictates what is permissable and what not, and this is often influenced by the cultural mileu within which the faith emerged. Hence the keeping of harems and slaves (for example) is acceptable in Islam and a man can do this and still be considered a virtuous Muslim.  

The point can be made that we do not really fear God, but fear the retribution that may be dispensed on transgressing specific actions considered acceptable. These vary from religion to religion. When certain adherants of particular religions view others they may well be highly sensitive to the behaviours/conventions of the "other" that are in stark contrast to thir own codes. The final point is that religions that lay down rigid specific, inflexible codes may be in danger of not possessing a degree of dynamism that make them flexible enough to deal with a rapidly changing world and cause them to conflict and resist changes, sometimes for understandable reasons, sometimes not. 

That being said, there is much to the fact that Guru Nanak Ji describes God as nirvair or without hate in the first page of the Sikh holy book.


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## spnadmin (May 21, 2009)

Dalsingh ji

Excellent statements through and through.


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## dalsingh (May 21, 2009)

Well Benjamin

I think I've said all I can on the subject from my end. 

For the record, here is a definition of transgression, you seem to have misunderstood the meaning. 

*transgression*
_the action of going beyond or overstepping some boundary or limit _

My point was that some people fear this because of the punishment arising from this, as opposed to God per se. So they rigidly stick to rules in a book and do not use the internal moral compass. So whilst they may follow their rules rigidly and technically, their actions can still be immoral.

Hope you enjoyed. Even though I think you are having difficulties following the trains of ideas in the thread. In the end, the answer to your question of Sikhs fearing God is that in practice many Sikhs do not "fear" God as in being in terror at the thought of some retribution. 

Also thanks for highlighting the importance of understanding Gurbani holistically. Now for you (and me!) to balance what we have learnt about fearing God can I suggest you do another search on Gurbani but this time using love. This will help you understand better. 

I know the forum rules are to post complete shabads, but I will break with protocol just to give you an idea of what you will encounter: (sorry fellow admins)

Page 32, Line 17
ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਰਤਾ ਰੰਗ ਸਿਉ ਹਉਮੈ ਤਜਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥
मनु तनु रता रंग सिउ हउमै तजि विकार ॥
Man ṯan raṯā rang si▫o ha▫umai ṯaj vikār.
One whose mind and body are imbued with the Lord's *Love* gives up egotism and corruption.
*Guru Amar Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


Page 33, Line 6
ਨਾਨਕ ਸਹਜੇ ਹੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਪਾਵੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੧੭॥੫੦॥
नानक सहजे ही रंगि वरतदा हरि गुण पावै सोइ ॥४॥१७॥५०॥
Nānak sėhje hī rang varaṯḏā har guṇ pāvai so▫e. ||4||17||50||
O Nanak, one who lives in intuitive peace and poise, imbued with the Lord's *Love*, obtains the Glorious Praises of the Lord. ||4||17||50||
*Guru Amar Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


Page 2, Line 3
ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
साचा साहिबु साचु नाइ भाखिआ भाउ अपारु ॥
Sācẖā sāhib sācẖ nā▫e bẖākẖi▫ā bẖā▫o apār.
True is the Master, True is His Name-speak it with infinite *love*.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


Page 2, Line 8
ਗਾਵੀਐ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਭਾਉ ॥
गावीऐ सुणीऐ मनि रखीऐ भाउ ॥
Gāvī▫ai suṇī▫ai man rakẖī▫ai bẖā▫o.
Sing, and listen, and let your mind be filled with *love*.
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


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## dalsingh (May 21, 2009)

This I think sums it up, for both of us:


ਤੀਰਥੁ ਤਪੁ ਦਇਆ ਦਤੁ ਦਾਨੁ ॥
तीरथु तपु दइआ दतु दानु ॥
Ŧirath ṯap ḏa▫i▫ā ḏaṯ ḏān.
Pilgrimages, austere discipline, compassion and charity -

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ਤਿਲ ਕਾ ਮਾਨੁ ॥
जे को पावै तिल का मानु ॥
Je ko pāvai ṯil kā mān.
these, by themselves, bring only an iota of merit.

ਸੁਣਿਆ ਮੰਨਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਕੀਤਾ ਭਾਉ ॥
सुणिआ मंनिआ मनि कीता भाउ ॥
Suṇi▫ā mani▫ā man kīṯā bẖā▫o.
Listening and believing with love and humility in your mind,

ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਮਲਿ ਨਾਉ ॥
अंतरगति तीरथि मलि नाउ ॥
Anṯargaṯ ṯirath mal nā▫o.
cleanse yourself with the Name, at the sacred shrine deep within.

ਸਭਿ ਗੁਣ ਤੇਰੇ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥
सभि गुण तेरे मै नाही कोइ ॥
Sabẖ guṇ ṯere mai nāhī ko▫e.
All virtues are Yours, Lord, I have none at all.

ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
विणु गुण कीते भगति न होइ ॥
viṇ guṇ kīṯe bẖagaṯ na ho▫e.
Without virtue, there is no devotional worship.

ਸੁਅਸਤਿ ਆਥਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬਰਮਾਉ ॥
सुअसति आथि बाणी बरमाउ ॥
Su▫asaṯ āth baṇī barmā▫o.
I bow to the Lord of the World, to His Word, to Brahma the Creator.

ਸਤਿ ਸੁਹਾਣੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ ॥
सति सुहाणु सदा मनि चाउ ॥
Saṯ suhāṇ saḏā man cẖā▫o.
He is Beautiful, True and Eternally Joyful.

ਕਵਣੁ ਸੁ ਵੇਲਾ ਵਖਤੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਕਵਣ ਥਿਤਿ ਕਵਣੁ ਵਾਰੁ ॥
कवणु सु वेला वखतु कवणु कवण थिति कवणु वारु ॥
Kavaṇ so velā vakẖaṯ kavaṇ kavaṇ thiṯ kavaṇ vār.
What was that time, and what was that moment? What was that day, and what was that date?

ਕਵਣਿ ਸਿ ਰੁਤੀ ਮਾਹੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਹੋਆ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥
कवणि सि रुती माहु कवणु जितु होआ आकारु ॥
Kavaṇ sė ruṯī māhu kavaṇ jiṯ ho▫ā ākār.
What was that season, and what was that month, when the Universe was created?

ਵੇਲ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ਪੰਡਤੀ ਜਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਲੇਖੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ॥
वेल न पाईआ पंडती जि होवै लेखु पुराणु ॥
vel na pā▫ī▫ā pandṯī jė hovai lekẖ purāṇ.
The Pandits, the religious scholars, cannot find that time, even if it is written in the Puraanas.

ਵਖਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਕਾਦੀਆ ਜਿ ਲਿਖਨਿ ਲੇਖੁ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥
वखतु न पाइओ कादीआ जि लिखनि लेखु कुराणु ॥
vakẖaṯ na pā▫i▫o kāḏī▫ā jė likẖan lekẖ kurāṇ.
That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran.

ਥਿਤਿ ਵਾਰੁ ਨਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਜਾਣੈ ਰੁਤਿ ਮਾਹੁ ਨਾ ਕੋਈ ॥
थिति वारु ना जोगी जाणै रुति माहु ना कोई ॥
Thiṯ vār nā jogī jāṇai ruṯ māhu nā ko▫ī.
The day and the date are not known to the Yogis, nor is the month or the season.

ਜਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਿਰਠੀ ਕਉ ਸਾਜੇ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ॥
जा करता सिरठी कउ साजे आपे जाणै सोई ॥
Jā karṯā sirṯẖī ka▫o sāje āpe jāṇai so▫ī.
The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.

ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ ॥
किव करि आखा किव सालाही किउ वरनी किव जाणा ॥
Kiv kar ākẖā kiv sālāhī ki▫o varnī kiv jāṇā.
How can we speak of Him? How can we praise Him? How can we describe Him? How can we know Him?

ਨਾਨਕ ਆਖਣਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਇਕ ਦੂ ਇਕੁ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥
नानक आखणि सभु को आखै इक दू इकु सिआणा ॥
Nānak ākẖaṇ sabẖ ko ākẖai ik ḏū ik si▫āṇā.
O Nanak, everyone speaks of Him, each one wiser than the rest.

ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥
वडा साहिबु वडी नाई कीता जा का होवै ॥
vadā sāhib vadī nā▫ī kīṯā jā kā hovai.
Great is the Master, Great is His Name. Whatever happens is according to His Will.

ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਪੌ ਜਾਣੈ ਅਗੈ ਗਇਆ ਨ ਸੋਹੈ ॥੨੧॥
नानक जे को आपौ जाणै अगै गइआ न सोहै ॥२१॥
Nānak je ko āpou jāṇai agai ga▫i▫ā na sohai. ||21||
O Nanak, one who claims to know everything shall not be decorated in the world hereafter. ||21||


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## dalsingh (May 22, 2009)

Look Benjamin

I'm not here to give English lessons but........<groan>

*we do not really fear God, but fear the retribution that may be dispensed on transgressing specific actions *

When I used  "we" in the quoted context I was referring to the general habits of people, not Sikhs. 

I notice you really like to applaud your own genius in your posts. So thought I'd give you this in recognition of your 'intellectual prowess'....enjoy Ben!







Seriously, I can't even be bothered to make the effort to respond to your juvenille attempts to show us all just what a smart boy you are and how dumb the rest of us are! Enjoy the peanuts and please go and share your wisdom with some of the Abrahamic faith websites on the Internet as it would be a sin for us at SPN to keep such a delightful person as you, all to ourselves.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 23, 2009)

BHAEIH  in Sikhi/Gurmatt has MORE to do with HUKM..DISCIPLINE...LAWS..of the CREATOR...than with "fear of punishment" etc etc.
WE Follow the HUKM..the Laws..the Discipline....HUKM RAZAEE CHALLNNA is Paramount in Gurmatt.
We dont cringe in fear.....and hide our faces...because the Creator as per Gurmatt is NOT like that.We take ONE STEP.and HE takes a MILLION STEPS FORWARD to EMBRACE US..in LOVE !! HE FORGIVES in an instant...blink of the eye...all we got to do is ASK....:welcome::welcome:


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## charanjit (Mar 30, 2010)

I think that you should ask yourself whether you fear God. 

Do you fear God. Perhaps you do and for that reason you follow a religion and the precepts as laid down by the religion. There is the fear of not belonging to something greater. The fear of being alone, the fear of not being, the fear of death. And in this fear, one decides to follow a religion, because he is afraid of the unknown and therefore has to bring everything in to the remit of his limitef understanding and his intellect. Death is the unknown, and therefore to become comfortable with it, just as a mother by console the child if he is afraid and tell him all will be OK; in the same vain we accept a religion, as this tells us that everything will be OK. One therefore takes a religion and a way of life in which to guide his or her life, as this is easier than finding out for yourself. 

As far as I understand, coming from a Sikh heritage, Sikhs do not fear God, in that they submit for the fear of repercussions. Once one is a Sikh there is the belief that the repitition of the name will endear you to Waheguru and hence there is no reason to fear. Some do fear God and perhaps become neurotic endless preachers, however most are content with praising God, and have not fear, but more so a reverance, sentimental and romantic notions of their idea of love for this God. 

Gurbani seems to make great mention of fear, or words that we have translated as fear. However, I am uncertain as to whether these are the most appropriate translation in every sense. And that where there is a translation as fear, one should delve in further and look to the context in which things are written, in order to gain a greater appreciation of its aesthetic value. 

However, to accept fear is a most ungracious thing. A God that induces fear, is a God that should be rejected and not at all patronised. Any action out of fear leads to horrendous consequences. All people that appear to follow and submit to the ostensible so called 'will of God' out of fear of God act most unkindly to others, their actions having been apparently sanctioned by God - killing others in the name of God, repradation and pillaging. 

In the human there should be no place for fear. If humans were not always so fearful, they may just lead their lives with greater vitality, rather than the daily torment of sorrow and misery that it has become. 

Charanjit


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## spnadmin (Mar 30, 2010)

charanji ji

That is also my understanding of Gurbani.


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## Astroboy (Mar 30, 2010)

Page  34, Line 17
ਭੈ ਭਾਇ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਵੇਖੈ ਸਦਾ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥
भै भाइ भगति करहि दिनु राती हरि जीउ वेखै सदा  हदूरि ॥
Bẖai bẖā▫e bẖagaṯ karahi  ḏin rāṯī har jī▫o vekẖai saḏā haḏūr.
One who fears, loves, and is  devoted to the Dear Lord day and night, sees Him always close  at hand.
Guru Amar Das   -  view  Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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