# Waheguru Simran, Nitnem, Gurbani Study: Which You Do Most And Why?



## Ambarsaria (Dec 3, 2011)

In our practice of Sikhism we do different things for spiritual endeavors and living.  It goes without saying that all have varying positive influences on people's lives as such cannot sustain otherwise.

  1.  Waheguru Simran  

SWEET SIMRAN      - YouTube


  It has become increasingly popular over the years.  Including it being made part of raen-Sabhai smagams.  Something’s come to mind as follows,


Generally      such is done where Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is in prakash
Generally      done by people who have done the solemn bow in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Is      generally interjected with some popular tuks or names like      Hari/Gobind/Prabh and variations thereof
It      appears most vocal participants have their eyes closed and have appearance      of wandering glance when they occasionally open their eyes
In a      typical Katha session people have eyes open and still don’t appear to have      wandering glance
  Do most of the sangat know and recognize that there is one Guru in the place and that is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?  If they do, are they addressing Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in repeated chants of Waheguru?  

  Certainly there is no necessity of any such once you offered yourself in a solemn bow in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to address Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

  So what is the purpose and what is the lasting impact?  

  2.  Nitnem

Amazing Easy to Learn Nitnem- Japji Sahib Part One      - YouTube


  As part of an Amratdhari and a complete Sikh per Sikh Reht Maryada the Nitnem is required.  The Gurbanis are chosen as being suitable for the times of day.  What are your reaction and experience after each of the Gurbani’s is recited.

  You feel uplifted, charged to go, serene and at peace or some other emotions.

  3.  Gurbani Study

  Gurbani study is a way to recognize through self, references, commentary  and other resources the message that Guru ji give us in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

  With limited resources, at times language difficulties  (e.g. not knowing Punjabi), many a people do part of it through listening to Katha/discourses by eminent parchariks or wise.  

Bhai Balwinder Singh Rangila: Salok Mohalla 9 Katha Part 2      - YouTube

  This is also catching in popularity as a sign that people are equally hungry for understanding and more information that is available from Kirtan, Simran or nitnem.

  What are your thoughts?

  4.  Other

  There are methods that people adapt like meditation.  If you do so, what do you meditate on?  

Sahej Sukh Dhyan Meditation      - YouTube

  Some examples may be,


Your      understanding of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
Your      understanding of creation or creator
Simply      meditating on internal being and aiming for a calm and experiential state      of mind
  If you do, what are your thoughts on benefits and results to share?

  Humbly submitted for dialog and discovery to help each other.

  Please liberally sprinkle with your thoughts in your own words from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji per the TOS of spn (complete sabads with English translation and a reference of panna/page reference).  Srigranth.org is the best place to cut and paste from and then embed with your thoughts in a post.

  Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Dec 4, 2011)

Nice thread, many thanks.

Just an observation...  it may be worth mentioning the difference between Waheguru simran and Waheguru japna.

Waheguru simran is the ultimate state of mind always, to be remembering Guruji all around constantly and aware of the interconnectedness of everything.

Waheguru japna is the repetition of the word as a form of meditation.

Apologies if the wrong Punjabi words have been used.


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 4, 2011)

I chose Gurbani study in the poll myself.  I find this is the least I can do to respect my Guru ji for the wisdom, the guidance and real life visualizations towards living that they have provided.  

Not trying to do so, I could not do.  Such for me, _totally personal and perhaps irrational to some_, is insulting and at such point I rather not be a Sikh or if a Sikh be rather dead in shame.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:*  I can watch Waheguru Simran with enjoyment but something in me does not allow me to participate in a live event.  I attended part of such by Bhai Manpreet Singh ji locally and could not keep my eyes closed and when open would watch how people would look at each other to see if they were doing it, felt kind of funny and I did not stay long in respect of others.  Absolutely not to put down anyone as there are perhaps many who put away their cares on such times of Simran and have the psyche refreshed to face ever challenging days in many people's lives.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 4, 2011)

Gurbani advcates for the SIMRAN of NAAMu onlly 
and in particular RAAM NAAMu only.
We can understand the difference between SABADu and NAAMu.
Any SABADu is for PAPu but NAAMu is for SIMRAN.(There can be JAPu of NAAMu also)

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 4, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your post.



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> Gurbani advcates for the SIMRAN of NAAMu onlly
> and in particular RAAM NAAMu only.


_Veer ji can you post an example of a Simran done according to this description and if the Simran is a Tuk or parts of SGGS or not.  If from SGGS give one example that you really like for Simran purposes that meets your criteria and its context with the overall sabad as per spn TOS._



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> We can understand the difference between SABADu and NAAMu.
> Any SABADu is for PAPu


_So can PAPu do Simran or it is reserved for non-PAPu?  In the thread at the start can you see who is PAPu or not in the Simran example._



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> but NAAMu is for SIMRAN.(There can be JAPu of NAAMu also)
> Prakash.S.Bagga


_Is NAAMu part of SABADu or is it outside of SGGS?  Why a PAPu who understand SABADu not understand NAAMu?

_Thank you.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 4, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,

rwm nwmu aur mY gihE jw kY sm nhI koie ] (1429-10)
raam naam ur mai gahi-o jaa kai sam nahee ko-ay.
I have enshrined the Lord's Name within my heart; there is nothing equal to it.
ijh ismrq sMkt imtY drsu quhwro hoie ]57]1] (1429-10)
jih simrat sankat mitai daras tuhaaro ho-ay. ||57||1||
Meditating in remembrance on it, my troubles are taken away; I have received the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan. ||57||1||

Can you tell me what is this RAAM NAAM.?
Is this the word RAAM?
Is this the word Waheguru?
I consider this RAAM NAAM an important one in Gurbani.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Dec 4, 2011)

> Waheguru simran is the ultimate state of mind always, to be remembering Guruji all around constantly and aware of the interconnectedness of everything.


 
Isi you are right, Master Musketeer is really talking about the modern day trend of the sangat entering ino coordinated chanting or feigned meditation, but for some reason referred to it as Simran which has a much deeper meaning as you suggested. 

The Sikh liturgy I experienced growing was more of sit back and feign that you understand.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 4, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your post.
> 
> 
> _Veer ji can you post an example of a Simran done according to this description and if the Simran is a Tuk or parts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or not. If from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji give one example that you really like for Simran purposes that meets your criteria and its context with the overall sabad as per spn TOS._
> ...


 
It would be better first we know how a particular word is NOUN or ADJECTIVE in Gurbani.This is again a part of grammer understanding.
I am sure you will try to understand this when you come across to give meaning to "GuR Kaa Sabadu" in interpretation of Sukhmanee.

When you say can PAPu do SIMRAN ? You should realise you are talking of a person whereas there is no such person in Gurbani.It is the SIMRAN of the word PAPu itself if it suits anyone.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## ravneet_sb (Dec 4, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

"Guru's Bani" is "Art of Living" it's very imortant as it is guide for all aspects of life.

It teaches way to think, read, speak, listen, vision etc. Again it connects to all literal
development (arts and sciences (nature, as ultimate science)).

Regularity Nit(Daily) nem(remembring Naam) is important, as subject which we do not practise, we have to again refer books, 
either practise as way of life, or refer daily.

Waheguru recitation is imporatant, for cleansing and connecting to "GURU's BANI"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Harry Haller (Dec 4, 2011)

Gurfatehji

I am on a slightly different path in that I never set out to embrace Sikhism again, but in the last year it has become obvious that there is much validation in the SGGS to backup everything that has been burned into me by the consequences of my actions, as such, I now consider myself a quite 'die hard' seeker, I am hugely interested in the Wisdom, the practicality of the SGGS, at times it is not pleasurable, like chanting or meditating, it is deadly serious, I fear the clock is ticking away, and time is going by, and I only have until my death to answer the multitude of questions that still persist, 

I think what we are seeking is the divine connection that fills us with that good feeling, if some people can find it by meditating or chanting, then thats great, I would never argue that they were on the wrong path, but it is only a temporary connection, like taking drugs, and then coming back down to reality again, I believe that if you can model yourself on the Gurus, embrace the frequency of Creator, then you would end in that feeling 24/7. For me, meditation and chanting merely gives me an insight into what life could feel like if I embraced the wisdom and lifestyle as set out in the SGGS. 

I have never been one to tease myself, again for me, it is akin to hiring out a pristine blue 1994 RR LSE (with working air suspension!) for a day, when I would rather spend some time working hard til I can afford to keep one forever.


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 4, 2011)

ravneet_sb said:


> Sat Sri Akaal,
> 
> "Guru's Bani" is "Art of Living" it's very imortant as it is guide for all aspects of life.
> 
> ...




Ravneet ji,

Guru fateh.

Can you please enlighten me about the difference between Nitnem and Gurbani study?

Are they different? If yes, then it what sense?

Where did you get them meaning of Nem as remembering Naam?

What is Naam for you?

And please explain the last part which I did not understand that is: *"as subject which we do not practise, we have to again refer books, 
either practise as way of life, or refer daily".*

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## ravneet_sb (Dec 4, 2011)

Tejwant Singh Ji,

Can you please enlighten me about the difference between Nitnem and Gurbani study?

Nitnem is reciting of Five Bani's as a daily routine as a summary reading.

Under the influence of "Maya" our mind gets filth, our actions tend to deviate from the 
path, unless and until our mind if formed as per "GURU's BANI"

"Guru's Bani" is understanding of total book of 1430 Pages. 

Its not so easy to  understand the whole book. Reading/writting doesn't resolve.

To understand one word, the light, sound and matter related to word needs to be resolved.

As an example : Make a child read apple/ recite apple/ but don't show/physically sense apple to him.

Apple will be in front of him, one will never be able to understand apple as existence.


Understanding of word intutive awareness, guru's bani has experienced every one as
blind. but even phyically blind can get the way through imaginative sense.

Like blind man sense the path through there imaginative sense.

But person with eyes are intutively blind, close eyes for one day and understand
how blinds find there way and experience blind, 
through there evoked imaginative sense.

And we people with eyes are intutively blind and get hurted from obstacles, as a blind
man.

All of us are enticed and influence by "MAYA", clear the veil, understand "SURAT"
If each word of "GURU's BANI" reflects to mind, one is connected to NAAM, or

one is physically present, but imagination is at home/business/ SEX/ FOOD/ SECURITY/
RELATION/ EGO

Mentally not attached to "GURU's BANI"

To me each "WORD" in "GURU's BANI" is "NAAM" and it connects to experience "World"

Like to some  persons word 

"SURAT" appears as face, to some as region in Gujrat, to some as imaginative sense.

and all are True to there experience

Depending on the experience, every one forms mind, 

but when it comes to "GURU's BANI" 
one shall discuss in contest of "GURU's BANI"
not as experience of other sources such as movies, novels, etc.

Mind formation can be related to formation of pitcher, 
when clay is soft it forms shape,
but once it is formed, it makes noice, and 
imagine how much 

effort  is for human to shape a stone
and for "stone"  to shape him as "GOD" what we seek.

And when 
stone is form of human's ego
"EGO's get's blasted to shape hard mind to make someone realise "GOD", and the way humanity reflects back.

Getting trained and to give right training for religion is not easy path.



Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki FAteh





,   





Are they different? If yes, then it what sense?

Where did you get them meaning of Nem as remembering Naam?

What is Naam for you?

And please explain the last part which I did not understand that is: *"as subject which we do not practise, we have to again refer books, 
either practise as way of life, or refer daily".*


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## ravneet_sb (Dec 4, 2011)

SAT SRI AKAAL,

Biggest hurdle in learning is our formed "EGO's"

Understanding of "EGO" formation, is how mind forms.

As a analogy 

Clay if soft state can take any form, which is available as new child. Till 10-30

Once the clay is formed, it gets heat, as youth. 30-60

The formation is ready. 

Any re formation will tend to change the original form, 

Person will cry as feeling death of ego while living. And one really cries, once
one reflect his animal instinct going away, and human is getting formed.

So feel the pain to stone when it is carved as "GOD"


Waheguru Ji Ki Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 4, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your post.
> 
> 
> _Veer ji can you post an example of a Simran done according to this description and if the Simran is a Tuk or parts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or not. If from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji give one example that you really like for Simran purposes that meets your criteria and its context with the overall sabad as per spn TOS._
> ...


 
AMBARSARIA Ji,
SABADu and NAAMu both are very much there in SGGS the only thing is we fail or avoid to recognise.
SABADu is ann SINGLE WORD as NOUN
NAAMu is always a pair of two Single words and is ADJ -NOUN and COLLECTIVE NOUN.

NAAMu has been refered to MATTER (Vibrating) of the UNIVERSE in Gurbani(Now you are going to disagree on this)
NAAMu is an ATTRIBUTE for the MATTER Vibrating) and describes the internal Quality of the MATTER(Vibrating) whereas NAME or NAA-Au  is a word for recognition of the MATTER.
ALL the MANTRA refered in Gurbani are related to NAAMu  not to NAME or NAA-Au.
So NAAMu is present within every matter of the UNIVERSE and NAAMu is OMNIPRESENT and OMNIPOTENT VIBRATING WAVE.
Thus understanding of NAAMu requires an indepth study of Gurbani.

The word is WAHi GURoo(I fail to understand why we write it as WAHEGURU.) You can give a look to the word in GURMUKHI SCRIPT and then see How this should be written in ROMAN to match Gurmukhi word.
If we write wrong how we can understand correctly?

The Basic problem is that we dont have correct english translitration of SGGS and this is tha main cause of confusion.

I think first we should look into this how this anomaly can be removed then only we can understand Gurbani more clearly.

I am fully aware that the subject in question isvery sensitive but at the same time while sharing views on such subject we should keep in mind the limitation of english translitration .
These are my personal views only.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 4, 2011)

Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for your post.  Some comments.



			
				Prakash.S.Bagga said:
			
		

> Thus understanding of NAAMu requires an indepth study of Gurbani.


_Veer ji that is exactly why _*ਨਾਮੁ *_i__s referred by me as a relationship to understanding or Gian/Knowledge._



			
				Prakash.S.Bagga said:
			
		

> The word is WAHi GURoo(I fail to understand why we write it as  WAHEGURU.) You can give a look to the word in GURMUKHI SCRIPT and then  see How this should be written in ROMAN to match Gurmukhi word.
> If we write wrong how we can understand correctly?
> 
> The Basic problem is that we dont have correct english translitration of  Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and this is tha main cause of confusion.


_Prakash.S.Bagga veer ji I agree on this and it is my error._ _Actually Dr. Kulbir Singh ji Thind appears to have given correct trans-lite-ration as below._
*
**ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ* 
vāhigurū

I used the most common usage (wrong) word.  I will watch it in the future.  As you know I read Punjabi while translating Gurbani elements and don't depend upon any trans-literations.  So I am not affected by trans-literations in my study of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Sat Sri Akal.
​


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 4, 2011)

AMBARSARIA ji,
While I agree and appreciate the translitration of the word by Dr Kulbber Singh ji.
But I would like to see his translitration for the whole of Gurbani.
If you can mention me how I can make access to his site it would be nice of you.
With thanks
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 4, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA ji,
> While I agree and appreciate the translitration of the word by Dr Kulbber Singh ji.
> But I would like to see his translitration for the whole of Gurbani.
> If you can mention me how I can make access to his site it would be nice of you.
> ...


Veer ji the above is from the following,

srigranth.org.

It is a very versatile site for searching, doing online Dictionary checks, Mahan Kosh, Peof. Sahib Singh ji's Darpan, Bhai Manmohan Singh ji, Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji and all in one place.

ੴ  ਸਤਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਕਰਤਾ  ਪੁਰਖੁ  ਨਿਰਭਉ  ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ  ਅਕਾਲ  ਮੂਰਤਿ  ਅਜੂਨੀ  ਸੈਭੰ  ਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥ 


For example if you double click on any word (say ੴ)   it will take you to the dictionary and if you hit Home there it will take you to various option to search Gurbani, etc.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 4, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for your post.  Some comments.
> 
> _Veer ji that is exactly why _*ਨਾਮੁ *_i__s referred by me as a relationship to understanding or Gian/Knowledge._
> 
> ...



Ambarsaria ji,

Guru Fateh.

It is not your fault. It is the syntax of our native languages that make us pronounce and write in a wrong manner. We invert V for W and vice versa in English, just like the Germans.

That is why I always write  Vaheguru rather than Waheguru because *ਵ* is V not W.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 4, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,
I hope this answers your question on why they are using the word "Waheguru". It doesn't just mean wonderful teacher, it is also referring to the teacher inside of you and God. The later being the same in non-dualism, that is, the teacher inside you *is* God. So no they are not calling out Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (although if they were that would not change much).

Look how Bhai Gurdas ji poetically describes Waheguru mantr. Though one need not use it as it is just a word one uses to remember and repeatedly identify with the (inner) God.

੪੯ : ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ
Waheguru Mantra

ਸਤਿਜੁਗ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ।
Satijougi Satigur Vaasadayv Vavaa Visanaa Naamu Japaavai.
सतिजुगि सतिगुर वासदेव ववा विसना नामु जपावै ।
In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ।
Duaapari Satigur Haree Krisan Haahaa Hari Hari Naamu Japaavai.
दुआपरि सतिगुर हरी क्रिसन हाहा हरि हरि नामु जपावै ।
The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.


ਤ੍ਰੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ।
Taytay Satigur Raam Jee Raaraa Raam Japay Soukhu Paavai.
तेते सतिगुर राम जी रारा राम जपे सुखु पावै ।
In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.


ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ*।
Kalijougi Naanak Gur Gobind Gagaa Gobind Naamu Alaavai.
कलिजुगि नानक गुर गोबिंद गगा गोबिंद नामु अलावै ।
In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Guru Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.


ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ।
Chaaray Jaagay Chahu Jougee Panchaain Vichi Jaai Samaavai.
चारे जागे चहु जुगी पंचाइण विचि जाइ समावै ।
The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.


ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ*।
Chaaro Achhar Iku Kari Vaahaguroo Japu Mantr Japaavai.
चारो अछर इकु करि वाहगुरू जपु मंत्र जपावै ।
*When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,*


ਜਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਹਾਂ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੪੯॥੧॥
Jahaa Tay Oupajiaa Dhiri Tahaa Samaavai ॥49॥1॥
जहा ते उपजिआ फिरि तहा समावै ॥४९॥१॥
*The jiv merges again in its origin.*

7 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੪੯ ਪੰ. ੭


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 4, 2011)

Ravneet Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> Nitnem is reciting of Five Bani's as a daily routine as a summary reading.



What do you mean by the above? Is it just a casual mechanical parroting or is it about understanding Gurbani and using it in our daily lives is required?  If not then Nitnem becomes irrelevant and a futile daily exercise. 

What do you think?



> "Guru's Bani" is understanding of total book of 1430 Pages.



Once again, pardon my ignorance, you mean learning, understanding, practicing even one page of Gurbani is not Gurbani? One has to understand all 1430 pages of SGGS, our only Guru to make it Gurbani?

Some Banis are from the 1429 pages of SGGS, our only Guru in Nitnem. So you mean doing them is just a useless, unfruitful venture?



> Its not so easy to  understand the whole book. Reading/writting doesn't resolve.



First of all it is not a book. SGGS is our only Guru and of course understanding the whole SGGS is quite a task. Almost impossible. That is why we take hukumnaamas daily so we can follow them and work our lives of Miri-Piri based on them.



> To understand one word, the light, sound and matter related to word needs to be resolved.



Please elaborate the above.



> As an example : Make a child read apple/ recite apple/ but don't show/physically sense apple to him.



I agree. That would be bad teaching skills. Why would you make the child read and recite something without showing as far as apple is concerned?

Are you trying to imply that our Gurus were bad teachers because they told us to parrot/chant/repeat?



> Apple will be in front of him, one will never be able to understand apple as existence.



Not if you show the apple first to the child and then ask him to repeat the name till he gets it. After all he/she is a baby  and just beginning to form words physically and put the picture of the apple in his brain's memory bank.



> Understanding of word intutive awareness, guru's bani has experienced every one as blind. but even phyically blind can get the way through imaginative sense.



Yes of course. I have many members in one side of my family who were born blind and all of them were/are successful as poets, Raagis etc etc.



> But person with eyes are intutively blind, close eyes for one day and understand how blinds find there way and experience blind, through there evoked imaginative sense.
> 
> And we people with eyes are intutively blind and get hurted from obstacles, as a blind
> man.



Please elaborate the above.



> If each word of "GURU's BANI" reflects to mind, one is connected to NAAM,



Now you are contradicting yourself. Here what you said above:{ "Guru's Bani" is understanding of total book of 1430 Pages. } and now you are talking about just one word of Gurbani. Which is it?



> or one is physically present, but imagination is at home/business/ SEX/ FOOD/ SECURITY/
> RELATION/ EGO
> 
> Mentally not attached to "GURU's BANI"



I know you are talking about other people not about you because you talk below about yourself. What made you pass that judgement on others?

Only Ik Ong Kaar knows which milestone each of us is at. Neither you, me or anyone else can find that out no matter how many times we try to play Ik Ong kaar.



> To me each "WORD" in "GURU's BANI" is "NAAM" and it connects to experience "World"



Oh, now I get it. You claim that you are better than the people you talked above. How interesting! Isn't this called Me-ism?



> Like to some  persons word
> 
> "SURAT" appears as face, to some as region in Gujrat, to some as imaginative sense.



I beg to differ with you on that one. It would depend on the context. It has nothing to do with the imaginative sense.



> and all are True to there experience



No they are not without the right context. Sorry to burst your bubble.



> Depending on the experience, every one forms mind,



Wrong again as mentioned above. All depends on the context.



> but when it comes to "GURU's BANI"
> one shall discuss in contest of "GURU's BANI"
> not as experience of other sources such as movies, novels, etc.



Who is doing that?



> Mind formation can be related to formation of pitcher,
> when clay is soft it forms shape,
> but once it is formed, it makes noice, and
> imagine how much
> ...



Are you talking about idol worshiping and Murti puja now? What context made you change to this?



> And when
> stone is form of human's ego
> "EGO's get's blasted to shape hard mind to make someone realise "GOD", and the way humanity reflects back.



Where did you get the above from? Please share with concrete examples.



> Getting trained and to give right training for religion is not easy path.



Who is getting trained and who is giving the right training? Please name some.

Hope to learn from your interesting thoughts. Please respond in layman's terms so I can understand and learn from you.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 4, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> I hope this answers your question on why they are using the word "Waheguru". It doesn't just mean wonderful teacher, it is also referring to the teacher inside of you and God. The later being the same in non-dualism, that is, the teacher inside you *is* God. So no they are not calling out Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (although if they were that would not change much).
> 
> Look how Bhai Gurdas ji poetically describes Waheguru mantr. Though one need not use it as it is just a word one uses to remember and repeatedly identify with the (inner) God.
> ...



Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

The fact of the matter is that poetry of Bhai Gurdas did not pass the benchmark set by of our visionary Gurus. This is the reason it was rejected and hence not added to SGGS, our only Guru. This was our Gurus' decision which should be respected.

So, to compare Bhai Gurdas' poetry with SGGS, is not only undermining our Gurus' decision but also undermining SGGS, our only Guru. And both are not wise things to do as Sikhs.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 4, 2011)

> but it is only a temporary connection, like taking drugs, and then coming back down to reality again


Harry ji, 
It is the opposite. You are in reality when you chant and jap because you are more alert, more present, more aware of what is happening now. Look at when this is not case, during sleep. Are you in reality when you are sleeping? No you are dreaming. When you become more alert, more aware, when you awaken, you realize you were dreaming and you have just entered reality. Your chanting becomes effortless, you realize you are only aware of it and that God is the doer not you. You realize you are in Hukam. Chanting and jap is walking with that Hukam.

Dwelling on the name, you realize who the name is given to. You get a direct perception of that *thing*, that Ultimate Reality. Of course, one need not chant or jap, these are specific to Sikh tradition. There are lots of ways to get in touch with reality that are not specific to Sikh tradition.

To my experience, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji only makes sense during such moments. Of course, it is temporary, everything is temporary but it causes real changes inside of you. It changes who you are without changing You. 
It is not like a drug, there is no addiction to it. But you do realize that if you want to be in reality then you gotta do it, gotta be present.

Even though both studying and taking time off to meditate is important, the problem with studying is that it gives only theoretical knowledge. It is through meditation one gets the practical knowledge. 
It is through: 
Listening to Gurbani (ਸ੍ਰਵਣ)
Singing Gurbani, God's praises (ਕੀਰਤਨ)
Dwelling on God's name (ਸਿਮਰਨ)
Doing service in humility (ਸੇਵਨ)
etc
that one gets practical knowledge, direct knowledge/understanding/perception. The way to do them is through concentration, complete attention, awareness (ਧਿਆਨੁ). When you do these things you become more truthful and you start to live more truthfully as you become less afraid and anxious. Afterall, in order to live truthfully one must be connected to Truth and not be afraid to be Truthful. Speaking the Truth is a very difficult act, and fear makes it worse.

Thus living in the present, completely aware and detached from (mental) objects is the way to not only be more Truthful but also have direct knowledge of Creator and Creation. Guru Nanak rightly stated the essence of his entire bani in the first pauri. Live with the Hukam


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 4, 2011)

Tejwant Singh ji,
Bhai Gurdas ji's poetry need not be in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. He is reiterating Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (in this particular vaar at least).
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥
vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o.
Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o.

ਕਵਲ ਨੈਨ ਮਧੁਰ ਬੈਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੈਨ ਸੰਗ ਸੋਭ ਕਹਤ ਮਾ ਜਸੋਦ ਜਿਸਹਿ ਦਹੀ ਭਾਤੁ ਖਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
कवल नैन मधुर बैन कोटि सैन संग सोभ कहत मा जसोद जिसहि दही भातु खाहि जीउ ॥
Kaval nain maḏẖur bain kot sain sang sobẖ kahaṯ mā jasoḏ jisahi ḏahī bẖāṯ kẖāhi jī▫o.
You are lotus-eyed, with sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. Mother Yashoda invited You as Krishna to eat the sweet rice.

ਦੇਖਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਅਤਿ ਅਨੂਪੁ ਮੋਹ ਮਹਾ ਮਗ ਭਈ ਕਿੰਕਨੀ ਸਬਦ ਝਨਤਕਾਰ ਖੇਲੁ ਪਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
देखि रूपु अति अनूपु मोह महा मग भई किंकनी सबद झनतकार खेलु पाहि जीउ ॥
Ḏekẖ rūp aṯ anūp moh mahā mag bẖa▫ī kinknī sabaḏ jẖanaṯkār kẖel pāhi jī▫o.
Gazing upon Your supremely beautiful form, and hearing the musical sounds of Your silver bells tinkling, she was intoxicated with delight.

ਕਾਲ ਕਲਮ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹਾਥਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਉਨੁ ਮੇਟਿ ਸਕੈ ਈਸੁ ਬੰਮ੍ਯ੍ਯੁ ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧਰਤ ਹੀਐ ਚਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
काल कलम हुकमु हाथि कहहु कउनु मेटि सकै ईसु बम्यु ग्यानु ध्यानु धरत हीऐ चाहि जीउ ॥
Kāl kalam hukam hāth kahhu ka▫un met sakai īs bamm▫yu ga▫yān ḏẖeān ḏẖaraṯ hī▫ai cẖāhi jī▫o.
Death's pen and command are in Your hands. Tell me, who can erase it? Shiva and Brahma yearn to enshrine Your spiritual wisdom in their hearts.
ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥੬॥
सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥१॥६॥
Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||1||6||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਪਰਮ ਧਾਮ ਸੁਧ ਬੁਧ ਨਿਰੀਕਾਰ ਬੇਸੁਮਾਰ ਸਰਬਰ ਕਉ ਕਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
राम नाम परम धाम सुध बुध निरीकार बेसुमार सरबर कउ काहि जीउ ॥
Rām nām param ḏẖām suḏẖ buḏẖ nirīkār besumār sarbar ka▫o kāhi jī▫o.
You are blessed with the Lord's Name, the supreme mansion, and clear understanding. You are the Formless, Infinite Lord; who can compare to You?
ਸੁਥਰ ਚਿਤ ਭਗਤ ਹਿਤ ਭੇਖੁ ਧਰਿਓ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਹਰਿਓ ਨਖ ਬਿਦਾਰਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
सुथर चित भगत हित भेखु धरिओ हरनाखसु हरिओ नख बिदारि जीउ ॥
Suthar cẖiṯ bẖagaṯ hiṯ bẖekẖ ḏẖari▫o harnākẖas hari▫o nakẖ biḏār jī▫o.
For the sake of the pure-hearted devotee Prahlaad, You took the form of the man-lion, to tear apart and destroy Harnaakhash with your claws.
ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਪਦਮ ਆਪਿ ਆਪੁ ਕੀਓ ਛਦਮ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲਖੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਤਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
संख चक्र गदा पदम आपि आपु कीओ छदम अपर्मपर पारब्रहम लखै कउनु ताहि जीउ ॥
Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā paḏam āp āp kī▫o cẖẖaḏam aprampar pārbarahm lakẖai ka▫un ṯāhi jī▫o.
You are the Infinite Supreme Lord God; with your symbols of power, You deceived Baliraja; who can know You?

ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥੭॥
सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥२॥७॥
Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||2||7||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||2||7||

ਪੀਤ ਬਸਨ ਕੁੰਦ ਦਸਨ ਪ੍ਰਿਆ ਸਹਿਤ ਕੰਠ ਮਾਲ ਮੁਕਟੁ ਸੀਸਿ ਮੋਰ ਪੰਖ ਚਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
पीत बसन कुंद दसन प्रिआ सहित कंठ माल मुकटु सीसि मोर पंख चाहि जीउ ॥
Pīṯ basan kunḏ ḏasan pari▫a sahiṯ kanṯẖ māl mukat sīs mor pankẖ cẖāhi jī▫o.
As Krishna, You wear yellow robes, with teeth like jasmine flowers; You dwell with Your lovers, with Your mala around Your neck, and You joyfully adorn Your head with the crow of pea{censored} feathers.
.
.
.
pg 1402

Ram, Vasudev, Harikrishna are being referred to as Waheguru here.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 4, 2011)

.........but then Guru Arjun Ji states..OH SLEEP..let me sleep some more....and not be awake..becasue my Beloved came in my sleep..and I dont want to be separated form Him....and then again..Guru Ji says..OH SLEEP..GO AWAY..depart...and leave me awake..becasue I am in the company of my Beloved and dont wnat to go to sleep and break that connection....so its "REALITY" when there is a CONNECTION...it doesnt matter asleep or awake..He WAKES some from sleep..and He puts the awake to sleep..as HE WILLS. Some ignornats see an apparent contradiction in Guru Jis words..but in relaity there is NONE..Guru Ji knows that the Vital moment is that in which the " the ringing has stopped and the ....Call is being answered..a connection is in place..downloading/uploading" is at top speed....Night or Day..winter or summer..travelling or at rest..


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 4, 2011)

Gyani ji, you are right. There is no contradiction. Guru Arjan Dev ji is Simaraning (more alert, more aware) in his sleep because he has that connection.

How come you decided to vote "None"? Don't you do simran, nitnem and vichar?


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 4, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Gyani ji, you are right. There is no contradiction. Guru Arjan Dev ji is Simaraning (more alert, more aware) in his sleep because he has that connection.
> 
> How come you decided to vote "None"? Don't you do simran, nitnem and vichar?


_Bhagat Singh veer ji what you think happens for the times when we are sleeping when dreams cannot be remembered from?  Could it be the time of meditation versus agitation where agitation is when dreams are vivid and good, bad or beautiful.

One day you wake up refresh and the other day you don't while you remember no dreams.  Could it be that in one case your soul was at peace from your understanding/Nitnem/Simran and another day it is not.

_I do want to cite an experience from childhood.




> We were told if we were bothered to do Kirtan Sohila path before sleeping.  I don't know if it was parental trick but it worked most of the time.  Mind you this would have been done with little understanding of the Gurbani.  So may be the Gurbani has vibes or such routines are very worthwhile practical tools for Sikhs to carry out everyday living.



Just musing I don't know the answer.:interestedmunda:

Sat Sri Akal.


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## ravneet_sb (Dec 4, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

Ambarsaria Ji,

This is a very nice post, and this is way of Sikhi

Understand "EGO" or "Death" 

or 

"Dead" being live

Shed "EGO" humbly bow down in "Sat Sangat"  

Seek 10th Door, Door of Liberation, 

Achieve on Death or While living, 

Make "EGO" go 

understand mind in your "Imaginative Thought"

Imagine "Word" and "Realise World"

Imagine "Guru's Bani"  or "Nit Nem" or  "Naam"

Understand "Gobind" "Go" is "Earth" and "Bind" is originator it one and all same.

One can show the door, one has to enter leaving his "self" or "EGO"

It is enticed with "Maya"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa


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## ravneet_sb (Dec 4, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

Sleep has three phases, 

In the first phase, our active mind has role, orr desires, discontent appears.

Human body is connected to concious mind.

Once sleep is induced, our concious mind is at rest, and body gets connected to
subconcious mind, that is mid way of sleep,

Desire and discontent of subconcious mind appears.

At third stage, desire in the form or air is settled, and our body is connected with
pure, unconcious mind, and our mind is awakened, but one is in deep sleep.

More mind has desire and discontent his stage ! sleep is more.

So saints have no self desire for materials, and hence no discontent, 
thoughts are settled in awakened mode also.

When body is connected to pure mind, it is awakened state, 

People who seek for material/sonetc with folded hands are enticed with "MAYA"

Body is slave of unconcious and subconcious mind.


Listen Asa Mehal 9th, everything is said, mind shall be available to listen.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## ravneet_sb (Dec 4, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

Understand Mehal 9, It's all there.

Lets understand more of formations, human has animal as origin,

Our pure mind unconcious mind Part 1

Understand mind of animal, it is imaginative. 
But has animal instincts.

After than there is vocal brain recent or mamallian brain

It forms subconcious and active mind

Part 2 and Part 3 of mind hinders approach to part 1 of mind.

That's why "Guru's Bani" is formed in "Raag" while repeating the same thought
it may strike third stage.

Stronger stage 2 and Stage3 

Stage 1 is difficult to access

Our five basic instincts are lying there, shed stage 2 and stage 1

To form human mind, unconciously, subconciously, and conicously,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Wahhefur Ji Ki Fateh.


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 4, 2011)

ravneet_sb ji where you think ਜਿੰਦ/ਰੂਹ (SOUL) resides in terms of being in-charge of mind and is most active,

1.  ਜਾਗਦਾ (Physically awake)
2.  ਝੌਕੇ  ਲੈਂਦਾ  (Drowsy, hallucinating, dreamy)
3.  ਅੱਦਾ-ਸੁੱਤਾ  (Half asleep, dreams, etc.)
4.  ਪੂਰਾ ਸੁੱਤਾ  (Deep sleep)

This might give us some clues as to how Vahaiguru Simran, Nitnem, Katha and meditation are  impacting and why.  I hazard a guess that soul in the forth increases as you move from 1 to 4 in the above list.  Nothing scientific just observation and conjecture.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## ravneet_sb (Dec 4, 2011)

Ambarsaria Ji,

Very Truth Got It. 

Understand and take more.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki FAateh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 4, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Gyani ji, you are right. There is no contradiction. Guru Arjan Dev ji is Simaraning (more alert, more aware) in his sleep because he has that connection.
> 
> How come you decided to vote "None"? Don't you do simran, nitnem and vichar?



I voted "NONE" because i dont do them the way most think it should be done....I prefer to "LIVE" Gurbani...japposatnamwaheguru:


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 4, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Tejwant Singh ji,
> Bhai Gurdas ji's poetry need not be in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. He is reiterating Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (in this particular vaar at least).
> ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
> वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥
> ...



Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.



> *Bhai Gurdas ji's poetry need not be in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. He is reiterating Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (in this particular vaar at least)*.



This is your personal opinion which undermines and insults our Gurus' decision who rejected Bhai Gurdas' poetry as not being at par the the standards they had for someone's poetry to be added in the SGGS, our only Guru. This is also the reason, many Saloks by Bhagat Kabir that did not jive with the Sikhi benchmark were rejected. The same can be said for  the whole poetry Bhai Gurdas' and Bhai Nand Lal's.

The fact still remains the same no matter how people try to twist it and many do. If they can not respect our Gurus's decisions then they are incapable of respecting our now living Guru SGGS, which is a shame.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 4, 2011)

Hahahha! lol
Tejwant Singh ji, 
That shabad is from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. My point is Bhai Gurdas ji's vaar (which I posted in a reply to Ambarsaria ji) is reiterating that shabad on page 1402 (which was in a reply to you) and other shabads with a similar theme. 

Note the use of Waheguru as a Mantra in that shabad from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji: ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ Then note the follow up tuks. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gener...an-nitnem-gurbani-study-you-3.html#post157544
Now look at Bhai Gurdas ji's poetic interpretation of the word Waheguru mantra. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gener...an-nitnem-gurbani-study-you-2.html#post157538

It is clearly a reiteration.

If Bhai Gurdas ji's Vaars are reiterating Gurbani then there would not be a need to add them in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, nor would it be insulting to anyone. If considering his work is insulting or undermining anything it is your own beliefs. You seem to have personal issues with this for some reason.

Plus Guru Arjan Dev ji would never have had a scholarly scribe whose views differed from his own. It would be common sense to choose somebody who held the same beliefs as you.

Anyways, I have posted the shabad as it is gives "Waheguru" some meaning. This seems to be the only place where it is used, other than Bhai Gurdas ji's Vaars.

Gurfateh


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 4, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Hahahha! lol
> Tejwant Singh ji,
> That shabad is from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. My point is Bhai Gurdas ji's vaar (which I posted in a reply to Ambarsaria ji) is reiterating that shabad on page 1402 (which was in a reply to you) and other shabads with a similar theme.
> 
> ...




Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am very well aware of what is in the SGGS. I re posted the whole post on purpose. 

You can giggle as much as you want to but the facts remain the same. Your own personal opinions do not count against Guru Sahib's. They only show your undermining their vision and decision.This was my reason to re-post the whole page.

As far as your prejudgement as usual about myself having personal issues with Bhai Gurdas, your premise is baseless as usual. I am stating the facts about his poetry not passing the benchmark set by our Gurus and this decision should be respected. Period.

For me SGGS is our only Guru and Gurbani in it is our only guide as as Sikhs.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 4, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 
Even Vaheguru is not correct.You are representing the matra sihari with letter e and  guru word  does not indicate whether u is for AUKAD or DUlakad matra.This needs consideration for writing any correct word even in translitration.
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 4, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Even Vaheguru is not correct.You are representing the matra sihari with letter e and  guru word  does not indicate whether u is for AUKAD or DUlakad matra.This needs consideration for writing any correct word even in translitration.
> With regards
> Prakash.S.Bagga




Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Sorry to disappoint you, but there is no matra in English. You are making things up to prove, I have no idea what point?

My post only stated the difference between the pronunciation of  V & W. The two words using these letters are inverted when people of Indian origin talk using the words. It is a cultural thing. The Germans do the same. 

That was my only point and remains so. Sadly, you are playing the same tricks as you played in the other thread about Ik Ong Kaar which is the way I write that is different than yours when the whole discussion was on  your false claim about "only the rare Sikhs" which I contested. It seems you get offended when challenged or when someone offers a different viewpoint than yours.  Our interaction had nothing to do with how you and I write Ik Ong Kaar.

I respect your knowledge of Punjabi grammar in the SGGS, our only Guru, but please give yourself a chance to give the benefit of the doubt to others who may also possess the same albeit not at your level, the one you claim. 

The latest example is your incorrect claim that with Sihari in Hari Raam makes the word an adjective. In fact it is a compound noun with a preposition as a rule, the rule you agreed with me when I talked about Bhagat  with Sihari. One can not make the rules at will or as one goes along.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 5, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 
If we can not depict matras in english words for Gurmukhi words of Gurbani then I think it is very difficult or even impossible to understand Gurbani as per english words.
Your Ik OngKaar pronunciation is totally out of SGGS this is What I feel about this .Had it been EK Ong Kaar it would have been fine.For this we will have to understand the difference in the meanings of the words IK and EK.
The Word HARi with a matra of sihairiis an adjective I still maintain but I nevr wrote for the word RAAM like that.
The application of matra of sihari on any Noun word makes is Transitive Noun not the proposition.Any way You may have your own understanding 
I have no right to question that.
With regrds
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 5, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> _If we can not depict matras in english_ words for Gurmukhi words of Gurbani then I think it is very difficult or _even impossible to understand Gurbani as per english words_.


_Prakash Singh Bagga ji the underlined makes no sense.  Since people have not employed a phonetics expert to transliterate Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not imply it cannot be understood.  No one is saying one cannot do proper transliteration or translation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  Being poetry Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji cannot even be translated perfectly in Punjabi prose.  So always the attempt is to make minimum errors and not be perfect.  

_"THERE IS NO PERFECT TRANSLATION INTO PROSE OF ANY POETRY". ​
This is a well understood and accepted idiom in Literature.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 5, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> If we can not depict matras in english words for Gurmukhi words of Gurbani then I think it is very difficult or even impossible to understand Gurbani as per english words.
> Your Ik OngKaar pronunciation is totally out of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji this is What I feel about this .Had it been EK Ong Kaar it would have been fine.For this we will have to understand the difference in the meanings of the words IK and EK.
> The Word HARi with a matra of sihairiis an adjective I still maintain but I nevr wrote for the word RAAM like that.
> The application of matra of sihari on any Noun word makes is *Transitive Noun *not the proposition.Any way You may have your own understanding
> ...



Prakash singh ji,

Guru fateh.

Thanks for the non-response response. Let me explain the last time. My only point was between the words that start with V & W and how they are pronounced by the people of Indian origin.

As mentioned before Ik or Ek is not the point. Now you are changing your tune again. First you also rejected ONG.  But anyway the number ੧ in Punjabi/Gurmukhi is pronounced as IK not EK. EK is a Hindi word derived from Sanskrit which is also used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as a word, not as a number.

Secondly, there is no such thing as *Transitive Noun* in the English language nor in any other language derived from Sanskrit as you incorrectly claimed. This is something that does not exist.

However, there are Transitive and Intransitive verbs. You seem confused between the Noun and the Verb. 

If you want me to explain the difference between the 2 verbs, please do not hesitate to ask and I shall do that.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 5, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> _Prakash Singh Bagga ji the underlined makes no sense. Since people have not employed a phonetics expert to transliterate Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not imply it cannot be understood. No one is saying one cannot do proper transliteration or translation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Being poetry Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji cannot even be translated perfectly in Punjabi prose. So always the attempt is to make minimum errors and not be perfect. _
> 
> "THERE IS NO PERFECT TRANSLATION INTO PROSE OF ANY POETRY".​
> 
> ...


 
How the word WAHi GURoo has been correctly by Kulbeer Singh thind ji. ? I think the way other words can be written accordingly to match Gurmukhi script.I dont think it should be impossible.
I am not talking of translation of POETRY into PROSE.I am talking of tranlitration of Poetry of Gurmukhi script to English script.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 5, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Prakash singh ji,
> 
> Guru fateh.
> 
> ...


 
I feel very sorry when I find you forming your own decision without any understanding what is writeen or said.In this style I dont think We can share any views.Better we enjoy the grace of Gurbani by of of Listening and Singing .
With regards 
Prakash.S.Bagga.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 5, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Hahahha! lol
> Tejwant Singh ji,
> That shabad is from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. My point is Bhai Gurdas ji's vaar (which I posted in a reply to Ambarsaria ji) is reiterating that shabad on page 1402 (which was in a reply to you) and other shabads with a similar theme.
> 
> ...


 
BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
I think Bhai Gurdas is grossly misundrsood by many.I observe Bhai Gurdas ji was a grat scholar of his time with great and  impeccable knowledge of different languages along with their  grammer.Moreover he enjoyed the confidence of our 5th GuRu Arjan Dev ji for undertaking the assignment of writing Gurbani as in POTHEE SAhib of that time.
I personally feel there is great knowledge given by Bhai Gurdas ji for correct understanding of Gurbani.His work can be taken as Dictionary of Gurbani understanding and I feel its conents are far better that any other reference of today.
I dont see why we are taking such a long discussion on understanding of the word WAHi GuRoo.For understanding WAHiGuRoo we will have to understand the word GuRoo  along with GuR.Any one can get answer having known the words GuRoo and GuR.This is clarified by Bhai Gurdas ji 
very well.
So we should not ignore the writings of Bhai Gurdas ji certainly it is not Gurbani but it is his style of writing .We should rather make use of the knowledge if any can be of use for correct understanding of Gurbani.
Outright rejection is our own weakness I feel so.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 5, 2011)

> Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh
> Prakash singh ji,
> 
> Guru fateh.
> ...



Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Likewise, because you have been proven wrong and not ready to admit it. I am still waiting for you to give me one Transitive NOUN as you claimed. Only by giving specific examples you can prove what you claim to be true.

It is sheer arrogance on your part to claim that I have no understanding and you are the only one who claims to have a lot of it although even when proven wrong several times. The only problem is that you do not like to be challenged and then start acting in this negative arrogant manner.

Now it is time to be honest as Sikhs. Show me the specifics with the examples from SGGS where I am wrong. If you do it in an honest manner, I will be the first one to apologise.

So, I will wait for your response to the specifics for a change. In the mean time, let's enjoy the Gurbani by Listening, Singing, Understanding, Accepting and putting into practice in our  lives so that we can live the life of Miri-Piri and make a difference whom we get in contact with.

Eagerly waiting for your wisdom.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: Just out of curiosity, do you utter - not write- Vaheguru or Waheguru?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 5, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 I am wrong but you are always right.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 5, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 
I always utter the way I write. so I write WAHi GuRoo and utter accordingly.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Dec 5, 2011)

Prakashji

Just an observation....

Although I hold you in the highest esteem and respect, as you are old enough to be my father, my heart tells me this should not be this difficult, our Gurus had great vision, they must have realised that at some stage non Punjabi speakers would embrace Sikhi, so to have a sort of 'secret code' that only a few are aware of, in my mind, defeats the whole point. 

I think we find in Sikhi what we are looking for in life, some just want to look like a Sikh, some just want to act like a Sikh, some run after the spirituality, and some just want to find a code that enables them to give life its best shot, whilst learning along the way, You seem to have found what you are looking for, and congratulations for that, but it may not be the same thing that the rest of us are looking for, certainly, this debate seems to have bogged down several threads, all the time taking us further away from knowledge and wisdom, and closer to microscopic viewing of whose Khacha is the most sparkling, as Tejwantji has said, let us concentrate on our similarities and not our differences, otherwise we will get nowhere


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 5, 2011)

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
You can refer to Gurbani grammer by Prof SAHIB Singh ji '
At pp386 -387 there is mention of several words with a matra of Sihari being refered as NOUN. These all words are in Gurbani.
You can tell me what should such NOUN be refered.?

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## charanjit (Dec 5, 2011)

I think that the first line of the introduction sets the tone of the purpose for naam simran. The author states that we do certain things for spiritual endeavours. And this is absolutely correct. We do naam simran so that we can gain something *
Any practice of anything is a dead thing. To practice something is to be dead. The constant repetition of a word. Repeating it again and again appears to soothe the mind from its troubles however this is only temporary. There is no magic formula in the repeating of words. It is only those that can not face the realities of life and it's sorrows that take recourse in the dulling of the mind by repitition of these words. You can repeat any words you like and sooner or later if you think deeply enough about it, *you will create a sense of euphoria. This is the way the mind works.*
Just as those that repeat Allah or hail Mary or Raam will create a sense of warm feeling and comfort. However as Sikhs we seem to believe that we have been given these magic words. They will lead to no where other than your constant repitition for the whole of your life and to have never known life.*
And back to the question of why we pray or do naam simran. As the author stated it is only for spiritual endeavour. Everyman who is sitting there in the gurdwaras doing simran is effectively counting his coins. So that on the day of his death he can go to his master trader, his guru his god, and say here you go vaheguru these are the coins that I have collected I have recited your name this many times now grant me this boon that I may sit beside you. This is not spirituality, this is market trading and economics.*

And those that sit in the gurdwaras chanting a praying they are the poor people who have no eyes of there own and wish to see through another's eyes. People don't want to find out what it means to live for themselves. We are too dependent on another persons experience and follow them blindly hoping they will take us to where they are. Following your guru will only take you to where he is and that will not be the truth but that is what people are content with, people simply want to follow behind another man.*

There are a few that do not follow. Such a man was Nanak. He denied everything so that he could find that which was real. He found something real. And now you in your greed want what he has and follow him blindly. You will never find what he has. You will only find his tracks in his path. And sadly you are content with his footprints. *To find truth you will have to be Nanak and set out on your own without his baggage and without wanting to gain something?*

Take care on you journey people.*

Charanjit


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## Harry Haller (Dec 5, 2011)

charanjit said:


> I think that the first line of the introduction sets the tone of the purpose for naam simran. The author states that we do certain things for spiritual endeavours. And this is absolutely correct. We do naam simran so that we can gain something *
> Any practice of anything is a dead thing. To practice something is to be dead. The constant repetition of a word. Repeating it again and again appears to soothe the mind from its troubles however this is only temporary. There is no magic formula in the repeating of words. It is only those that can not face the realities of life and it's sorrows that take recourse in the dulling of the mind by repitition of these words. You can repeat any words you like and sooner or later if you think deeply enough about it, *you will create a sense of euphoria. This is the way the mind works.*
> Just as those that repeat Allah or hail Mary or Raam will create a sense of warm feeling and comfort. However as Sikhs we seem to believe that we have been given these magic words. They will lead to no where other than your constant repitition for the whole of your life and to have never known life.*
> And back to the question of why we pray or do naam simran. As the author stated it is only for spiritual endeavour. Everyman who is sitting there in the gurdwaras doing simran is effectively counting his coins. So that on the day of his death he can go to his master trader, his guru his god, and say here you go vaheguru these are the coins that I have collected I have recited your name this many times now grant me this boon that I may sit beside you. This is not spirituality, this is market trading and economics.*
> ...



nicely said


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 5, 2011)

It is perfectly true that every one has to make his own spiritual journey.
But for making journey comfortable one is required to makecertain preparation.
Gurbani provides allrequisite information for the preparation of the journey.

Gurbani also provides a MAP for the spritual journey indicating destination ,type of luggage,information of JAHAJ for undertaking Journey along with A GUIDE.

To be GuRu NANAK one is required to understand GURU NANAK.

Prakash.S.Bagga
.


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 5, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> It is perfectly true that every one has to make his own spiritual journey.
> But for making journey comfortable one is required to makecertain preparation.
> Gurbani provides allrequisite information for the preparation of the journey.
> 
> ...


Prakash.S.Bagga veer ji I will love to have you as my travel agent for such a journey. mundahug You can show me the pitfalls, places of special attraction, etc.  You are quite capable of doing so. I wish you do more this way at the traveler's comprehension level.

Always learning and trying to learn.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 5, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Prakash.S.Bagga veer ji I will love to have you as my travel agent for such a journey. mundahug You can show me the pitfalls, places of special attraction, etc. You are quite capable of doing so. I wish you do more this way at the traveler's comprehension level.
> 
> Always learning and trying to learn.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 
In this connection You make the word GuRoo your guide .This is the only my sincere advice.I am sure the day you do this your journey will be in Auto Mode of spiritual Journey.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## karam (Dec 5, 2011)

I think simran can be done at any place, any where,so I do simran more, I read 4-10 pages of SGGS on my days off work, according to my understanding some stuff I absorb some things are beyond my level I beleive I will be able to catch those lines of Gurbani when my understanding will grow further so Iam not too worried if I don't understand anything.  I prefer doing path myself than listening on cd etc. because I can focus better and I have read somewhere that Sant Atar Singh jee recommended someone to do waheguru simran10,000 times a day, so I thought I should do the same, on my days off I try to jap"waheguru" atleast 10,000 times a day with my mala and I do regret about my wasted days in the past spent on useless activities like talking over the phone,watching movies etc.


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 5, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> In this connection You make the word GuRoo your guide .This is the only my sincere advice.I am sure the day you do this your journey will be in Auto Mode of spiritual Journey.
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Can you let me know which GuRoo,



> *ਗੁਰੂ/**GuRoo/GURU*
> *Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary*
> *ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਗੁਰੂ** (GuRoo of the GuRoo), (**ਭਾਵ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ। (meaning Creator)*ਉਦਾਹਰਣ: ਗੁਰੁ ਪਉੜੀ ਬੇੜੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ ਤੁਲਹਾ   ਹਰਿ ਨਾਉ॥ {ਸਿਰੀ ੧, ੯, ੩:੧ (17)}।


Our only Guru ji is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  The Guru that is described in the sabads/words in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is "the creator".

Please clarify and help.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 5, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Can you let me know which GuRoo,
> 
> Our only Guru ji is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The Guru that is described in the sabads/words in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is "the creator".
> 
> ...


 
I feel that the explantion of Gurmukhi dictionary is confusing.
You see the Gurmukhi words and try how you would like to write in english script.This you should do yourself .It will be more clear to you.
For SGGS I see the word GuRoo as more appropriate,as GuRoo is the 
Source of GuRu-GuR.(Gurbanee)
The only requirement is how you denote three words distictly as per Gurmukhi words and matras,
GuR..........Word without any matra under R
GuRu........Word with matra of Aukad under R
GuRoo......Word with matra of Dulakad.
I find in above fashion more clear. and convinient and some sites do follow this pattern for these words(You dont like those sites)
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 5, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> I feel that the explantion of Gurmukhi dictionary is confusing.
> You see the Gurmukhi words and try how you would like to write in english script.This you should do yourself .It will be more clear to you.
> For Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji I see the word GuRoo as more appropriate,as GuRoo is the
> Source of GuRu-GuR.(Gurbanee)
> ...




Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please explain the meanings of the above three ( GuR,GuRu,GuRoo) and their distinctions with the help of the Shabads from the SGGS for our understanding.

Thanks for the help in advance.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 5, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> I feel that the explantion of Gurmukhi dictionary is confusing.
> You see the Gurmukhi words and try _how you would like to write in english script_.This you should do yourself .It will be more clear to you.


_Prakash.S.Bagga veer ji I don't use transliteration, I can read and understand Punjabi. Transliteration in my posts is for others who cannot read Punjabi and is from Dr. Kulbir Singh Thind ji's work as available through Srigranth.org._



			
				prakash.s.bagga said:
			
		

> I find in above fashion more clear. and convinient and some sites do follow this pattern for these words(_You dont like those sites_)
> Prakash.S.Bagga


_I am unclear what you mean I don't like those sites. Perhaps send me a Private Message with information as I don't recall this part but I would like to review again in case I am mistaken._

Thanks to your rightful insistence I am very familiar with the following even though my understanding may not be identical to yours,

GuR..........Word without any matra under R ................  *ਗੁਰ*_=====> Creator_
GuRu........Word with matra of Aukad under R ..............  *ਗੁਰੁ* _=====> of Creator_
GuRoo......Word with matra of Dulakad .......................  *ਗੁਰੂ* _=====> Teacher_

Sat Sri Akal.


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## ravneet_sb (Dec 5, 2011)

Tejwant Singh,

What one reflect's one own's mind, 
it is very much true to my self also,

It is accepted fact, 
it is very difficult to control for myself,

Thanks for again making me little awake. 

to shed "EGO" it is just analogy not brahmanism

Realise stone, 
when it is shed to form "Sculpture of God" hard stone,
how much pain it has to suffer,

so while learning "Guru's Bani" one has to shed "EGO" and 
though in one shed's  "EGO" to get's enlightened,
but strong "EGO" get hits and reflects back

and connect to "Guru's Bani" 


Again thanks for your valuable post

With Regards

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 6, 2011)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Prakash Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...


 
Refer :WORD GuRoo


sloku ] (8-10)
salok.
Shalok:
pvxu gurU pwxI ipqw mwqw Driq mhqu ] (8-10, sloku)
pavan guroo paanee pitaa maataa Dharat mahat.
Air is the Guru, Water is the Father, and Earth is the Great Mother of all.
idvsu rwiq duie dweI dwieAw KylY sgl jgqu ] (8-11, sloku)
divas raat du-ay daa-ee daa-i-aa khaylai sagal jagat.
Day and night are the two nurses, in whose lap all the world is at play.
cMigAweIAw buirAweIAw vwcY Drmu hdUir ] (8-11, sloku)
chang-aa-ee-aa buri-aa-ee-aa vaachai Dharam hadoor.
Good deeds and bad deeds-the record is read out in the Presence of the Lord of Dharma.
krmI Awpo AwpxI ky nyVY ky dUir ] (8-12, sloku)
karmee aapo aapnee kay nayrhai kay door.
According to their own actions, some are drawn closer, and some are driven farther away.
ijnI nwmu iDAwieAw gey mskiq Gwil ] (8-12, sloku)
jinee naam Dhi-aa-i-aa ga-ay maskat ghaal.
Those who have meditated on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and departed after having worked by the sweat of their

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 6, 2011)

TEJWANT SINGHJI,,
REF.....................WORD GuRu

guru prmysuru pUjIAY min qin lwie ipAwru ] (52-9) 
gur parmaysur poojee-ai man tan laa-ay pi-aar.
Worship the Guru, the Transcendent Lord, with your mind and body attuned to love.
siqguru dwqw jIA kw sBsY dyie ADwru ] (52-10) 
satgur daataa jee-a kaa sabhsai day-ay aDhaar.
The True Guru is the Giver of the soul; He gives Support to all.
siqgur bcn kmwvxy scw eyhu vIcwru ] (52-10) 
satgur bachan kamaavnay sachaa ayhu veechaar.
Act according to the Instructions of the True Guru; this is the true philosophy.
ibnu swDU sMgiq riqAw mwieAw mohu sBu Cwru ]1] (52-11) 
bin saaDhoo sangat rati-aa maa-i-aa moh sabh chhaar. ||1||
Without being attuned to the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, all attachment to Maya is just dust. ||1||
myry swjn hir hir nwmu smwil ] (52-11) 
mayray saajan har har naam samaal.
O my friend, reflect upon the Name of the Lord, Har, Har
swDU sMgiq min vsY pUrn hovY Gwl ]1] rhwau ] (52-12) 
saaDhoo sangat man vasai pooran hovai ghaal. ||1|| rahaa-o.
. In the Saadh Sangat, He dwells within the mind, and one's works are brought to perfect fruition. ||1||Pause||
guru smrQu Apwru guru vfBwgI drsnu hoie ] (52-12) 
gur samrath apaar gur vadbhaagee darsan ho-ay.
The Guru is All-powerful, the Guru is Infinite. By great good fortune, the Blessed Vision of His Darshan is obtained.
guru Agocru inrmlw gur jyvfu Avru n koie ] (52-13) 
gur agochar nirmalaa gur jayvad avar na ko-ay.
The Guru is Imperceptible, Immaculate and Pure. There is no other as great as the Guru.
guru krqw guru krxhwru gurmuiK scI soie ] (52-13) 
gur kartaa gur karanhaar gurmukh sachee so-ay

This sabad could not be posted in full.The sabad is from Sree Raagu m5 pp-52 
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 6, 2011)

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,

REF:...................WORD GuR

drsnu dyiK jIvw gur qyrw ] (742-1)
darsan daykh jeevaa gur tayraa.
Gazing upon the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan, I live.
pUrn krmu hoie pRB myrw ]1] (742-1)
pooran karam ho-ay parabh mayraa. ||1||
My karma is perfect, O my God. ||1||
ieh bynµqI suix pRB myry ] (742-2)
ih baynantee sun parabh mayray.
Please, listen to this prayer, O my God.
dyih nwmu kir Apxy cyry ]1] rhwau ] (742-2)
deh naam kar apnay chayray. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Please bless me with Your Name, and make me Your chaylaa, Your disciple. ||1||Pause||
ApxI srix rwKu pRB dwqy ] (742-2)
apnee saran raakh parabh daatay.
Please keep me under Your Protection, O God, O Great Giver.
gur pRswid iknY ivrlY jwqy ]2] (742-3)
gur parsaad kinai virlai jaatay. ||2||
By Guru's Grace, a few people understand this. ||2||
sunhu ibnau pRB myry mIqw ] (742-3)
sunhu bin-o parabh mayray meetaa.
Please hear my prayer, O God, my Friend.
crx kml vsih myrY cIqw ]3] (742-3)
charan kamal vaseh mayrai cheetaa. ||3||
May Your Lotus Feet abide within my consciousness. ||3||
nwnku eyk krY Ardwis ] (742-

RAAGu SUHEE M5...pp742

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 6, 2011)

Another Sabad with Guroo clarification or expansion,

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ 

सलोकु मः १ ॥ 
Salok mėhlā 1. 
Shalok, First Mehl: 
ਸਲੋਕ, ਪਹਿਲੀ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ। 
xxx

xxx 

ਸਿਰੁ ਖੋਹਾਇ ਪੀਅਹਿ ਮਲਵਾਣੀ ਜੂਠਾ ਮੰਗਿ ਮੰਗਿ ਖਾਹੀ ॥ 

सिरु खोहाइ पीअहि मलवाणी जूठा मंगि मंगि खाही ॥ 
Sir kẖohā▫e pī▫ah malvāṇī jūṯẖā mang mang kẖāhī. 
They pluck the hair out of their heads, and drink in filthy water; they beg endlessly and eat the garbage which others have thrown away. 
ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਮੂੰਡ ਪੁਟਵਾਉਂਦੇ, ਮੈਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਪੀਦੇ ਅਤੇ ਉਹ ਹੋਰਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਜੂਠ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ਮੰਗਦੇ ਅਤੇ ਖਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। 
ਮਲਵਾਣੀ = ਮੈਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ, ਧੋਣ-ਧਾਣ।

(ਇਹਸਰੇਵੜੇ ਜੀਵ-ਹਿੰਸਾ ਦੇ ਵਹਿਮ ਵਿਚ) ਸਿਰ (ਦੇ ਵਾਲ) ਪੁਟਾ ਕੇ (ਕਿ ਕਿਤੇ ਜੂਆਂ ਨਾ ਪੈਜਾਣ) ਮੈਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਪੀਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਜੂਠੀ ਰੋਟੀ ਮੰਗ ਮੰਗ ਕੇ ਖਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ; 

ਫੋਲਿ ਫਦੀਹਤਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਲੈਨਿ ਭੜਾਸਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਦੇਖਿ ਸਗਾਹੀ ॥ 

फोलि फदीहति मुहि लैनि भड़ासा पाणी देखि सगाही ॥ 
Fol faḏīhaṯ muhi lain bẖaṛāsā pāṇī ḏekẖ sagāhī. 
They spread manure, they suck in rotting smells, and they are afraid of clean water. 
ਉਹ ਗੰਦਗੀ ਨੂੰ ਖਿਲਾਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਆਪਣੇ ਮੂੰਹ ਨਾਲ ਇਸ ਦੀਆਂ ਹਵਾੜਾਂ ਅੰਦਰ ਖਿਚਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਜਲ ਵੇਖਣ ਤੋਂ ਤਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ। 
ਫਦੀਹਤਿ = {ਅਰਬੀ, ਫਜ਼ੀਅਤਿ ਦੇ 'ਜ਼' ਨੂੰ 'ਦ' ਭੀ ਪੜ੍ਹਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ; ਫ਼ਜੂਲ = ਫਾਦਲ; ਕਾਜ਼ੀ = ਕਾਦੀ} ਪਖਾਨਾ। ਭੜਾਸਾ = ਹਵਾੜ। ਸਗਾਹੀ = ਸੰਗਦੇ ਹਨ।

(ਆਪਣੇ) ਪਖ਼ਾਨੇ ਨੂੰ ਫੋਲ ਕੇ ਮੂੰਹ ਵਿਚ (ਗੰਦੀ) ਹਵਾੜ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਹਨਤੇ ਪਾਣੀ ਵੇਖ ਕੇ (ਇਸ ਤੋਂ) ਸੰਗਦੇ ਹਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਪਾਣੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਵਰਤਦੇ)। 

ਭੇਡਾ ਵਾਗੀ ਸਿਰੁ ਖੋਹਾਇਨਿ ਭਰੀਅਨਿ ਹਥ ਸੁਆਹੀ ॥ 

भेडा वागी सिरु खोहाइनि भरीअनि हथ सुआही ॥ 
Bẖedā vāgī sir kẖohā▫in bẖarī▫an hath su▫āhī. 
Their hands are smeared with ashes, and the hair on their heads is plucked out-they are like sheep! 
ਰਾਖ ਨਾਲ ਲਿਬੜੇ ਹੋਏ ਹੱਥਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਭੇਡਾਂ ਦੀ ਮਾਨਿੰਦ ਊਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਮੂੰਡ ਪੁਟਵਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ। 
ਭਰਿਅਨਿ = ਭਰੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।

ਭੇਡਾਂ ਵਾਂਗ ਸਿਰ (ਦੇ ਵਾਲ) ਪੁਟਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, (ਵਾਲ ਪੁੱਟਣ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਦੇ) ਹੱਥ ਸੁਆਹ ਨਾਲ ਭਰੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। 

ਮਾਊ ਪੀਊ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਗਵਾਇਨਿ ਟਬਰ ਰੋਵਨਿ ਧਾਹੀ ॥ 

माऊ पीऊ किरतु गवाइनि टबर रोवनि धाही ॥ 
Mā▫ū pī▫ū kiraṯ gavā▫in tabar rovan ḏẖāhī. 
They have renounced the lifestyle of their mothers and fathers, and their families and relatives cry out in distress. 
ਆਪਣੀਆਂ ਅੰਮੜੀਆਂ ਤੇ ਬਾਬਲਾਂ ਦੀ ਨਿਤ ਦੀ ਮਰਿਆਦਾ ਉਹ ਛੱਡ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਸਾਕ ਸੈਨ ਭੁੱਬਾਂ ਮਾਰ ਕੇ ਰੋਂਦੇ ਹਨ। 
ਮਾਉ ਪੀਉ ਕਿਰਤੁ = ਮਾਪਿਆਂ ਵਾਲਾ ਕੰਮ-ਕਾਰ, ਰੋਜ਼ੀ ਕਮਾਣ ਦਾ ਕੰਮ। ਧਾਹੀ = ਢਾਹਾਂ ਮਾਰ ਕੇ।

ਮਾਪਿਆਂ ਵਾਲਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਕੰਮ (ਭਾਵ, ਹੱਥੀਂ ਕਮਾਈ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਟੱਬਰ ਪਾਲਣ ਦਾ ਕੰਮ) ਛੱਡ ਬੈਠਦੇ ਹਨ (ਇਸ ਲਈ) ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਟੱਬਰ ਢਾਹਾਂ ਮਾਰ ਮਾਰ ਰੋਂਦੇ ਹਨ। 

ਓਨਾ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਨ ਪਤਲਿ ਕਿਰਿਆ ਨ ਦੀਵਾ ਮੁਏ ਕਿਥਾਊ ਪਾਹੀ ॥ 

ओना पिंडु न पतलि किरिआ न दीवा मुए किथाऊ पाही ॥ 
Onā pind na paṯal kiri▫ā na ḏīvā mu▫e kithā▫ū pāhī. 
No one offers the rice dishes at their last rites, and no one lights the lamps for them. After their death, where will they be sent? 
ਊਹਨਾਂ ਲਈ ਕੋਈ ਜਵਾਂ ਦੇਪਿੰਨੇ ਅਤੇ ਪੱਤਿਆਂ ਤੇ ਭੋਜਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਦਿੰਦਾ, ਨਾਂ ਹੀ ਮਿਰਤਕ ਸੰਸਕਾਰ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਨਾਂ ਹੀਮਿੱਟੀ ਦਾ ਦੀਵਾ ਬਾਲਦਾ ਹੈ। ਮਰਨ ਮਗਰੋਂ ਉਹ ਕਿਥੇ ਸੁੱਟੇ ਜਾਣਗੇ? 
ਕਿਥਾਉ = ਪਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿਥੇ।

(ਇਹਲੋਕ ਤਾਂ ਇਉਂ ਗਵਾਇਆ, ਅੱਗੇ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਦਾ ਹਾਲ ਸੁਣੋ) ਨਾ ਤਾਂ ਹਿੰਦੂ-ਮਤਅਨੁਸਾਰ (ਮਰਨ ਪਿੱਛੋਂ) ਪਿੰਡ ਪੱਤਲ ਕਿਰਿਆ ਦੀਵਾ ਆਦਿਕ ਦੀ ਰਸਮ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਮਰੇ ਹੋਏਪਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿਥੇ ਜਾ ਪੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ (ਭਾਵ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਸਵਾਰਨ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਆਹਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ)। 

ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਦੇਨਿ ਨ ਢੋਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਅੰਨੁ ਨ ਖਾਹੀ ॥ 

अठसठि तीरथ देनि न ढोई ब्रहमण अंनु न खाही ॥ 
Aṯẖsaṯẖ ṯirath ḏen na dẖo▫ī barahmaṇ ann na kẖāhī. 
The sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage give them no place of protection, and no Brahmin will eat their food. 
ਅਠਾਹਟ ਯਾਤਰਾ ਦੇ ਅਸਥਾਨ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪਨਾਹ ਨਹੀਂ ਦਿੰਦੇ, ਅਤੇ ਪੰਡਤ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਭੋਜਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਖਾਂਦੇ। 
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(ਹਿੰਦੂਆਂਦੇ) ਅਠਾਹਠ ਤੀਰਥ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਢੋਈ ਨਹੀਂ ਦੇਂਦੇ (ਭਾਵ ਹਿੰਦੂਆਂ ਵਾਂਗ ਤੀਰਥਾਂ ਤੇ ਭੀਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਂਦੇ), ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ (ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ) ਅੰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਖਾਂਦੇ (ਭਾਵ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣਾਂ ਦੀ ਭੀ ਸੇਵਾਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ)। 

ਸਦਾ ਕੁਚੀਲ ਰਹਹਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਥੈ ਟਿਕੇ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ 

सदा कुचील रहहि दिनु राती मथै टिके नाही ॥ 
Saḏā kucẖīl rahėh ḏin rāṯī mathai tike nāhī. 
They remain polluted forever, day and night; they do not apply the ceremonial tilak mark to their foreheads. 
ਉਹ ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾਂ ਦਿਹੁੰ ਰੈਣ ਮਲੀਨ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਮਸਤਕ ਊਤੇ ਤਿਲਕ ਨਹੀਂ। 
ਕੁਚੀਲ = ਗੰਦੇ। ਟਿਕੇ = ਟਿੱਕੇ, ਤਿਲਕ।

ਸਦਾ ਦਿਨ ਰਾਤ ਬੜੇ ਗੰਦੇ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਮੱਥੇ ਉਤੇ ਤਿਲਕ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਾਉਂਦੇ (ਭਾਵ, ਨ੍ਹਾ ਧੋ ਕੇ ਸਰੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਸਾਫ਼-ਸੁਥਰਾ ਭੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ)। 

ਝੁੰਡੀ ਪਾਇ ਬਹਨਿ ਨਿਤਿ ਮਰਣੈ ਦੜਿ ਦੀਬਾਣਿ ਨ ਜਾਹੀ ॥ 

झुंडी पाइ बहनि निति मरणै दड़ि दीबाणि न जाही ॥ 
Jẖundī pā▫e bahan niṯ marṇai ḏaṛ ḏībāṇ na jāhī. 
They sit together in silence, as if in mourning; they do not go to the Lord's Court. 
ਮਾਤਮ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਮਾਨਿੰਦ ਊਹ ਸਦਾ ਮਜਮਾ ਬਣਾ ਕੇ ਬੈਠਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਸੱਚੀ ਕਚਹਿਰੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਂਦੇ। 
ਝੁੰਡੀ ਪਾਇ = ਉਂਧੀ ਪਾ ਕੇ, ਧੌਣ ਸੁਟ ਕੇ। ਦੜਿ ਦੀਬਾਣਿ = ਕਿਸੇ ਦੜੇ-ਦੀਵਾਨ ਵਿਚ, ਕਿਸੇ ਸਭਾ-ਦੀਵਾਨ ਵਿਚ।

ਸਦਾਧੌਣ ਸੁੱਟ ਕੇ ਬੈਠਦੇ ਹਨ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇ ਮਰਨ ਦਾ ਸੋਗ ਕਰ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦੇਅੰਦਰ ਕੋਈ ਆਤਮਕ ਹੁਲਾਰਾ ਭੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ)। ਕਿਸੇ ਸਤਸੰਗ ਆਦਿਕ ਵਿਚ ਭੀ ਕਦੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਂਦੇ। 

ਲਕੀ ਕਾਸੇ ਹਥੀ ਫੁੰਮਣ ਅਗੋ ਪਿਛੀ ਜਾਹੀ ॥ 

लकी कासे हथी फुमण अगो पिछी जाही ॥ 
Lakī kāse hathī fummaṇ ago picẖẖī jāhī. 
With their begging bowls hanging from their waists, and their fly-brushes in their hands, they walk along in single file. 
ਮੰਗਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਠੂਠੇ ਕਮਰਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਲਟਕਦੇ ਹੋਏ ਤੇ ਹੱਥਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਧਾਗਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਗੁੱਛਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ ਉਹ ਅੱਗੜ ਪਿੱਛੜ ਤੁਰਦੇ ਹਨ। 
ਕਾਸੇ = ਪਿਆਲੇ। ਅਗੋ ਪਿਛੀ = ਇੱਕ ਕਤਾਰ ਵਿਚ।

ਲੱਕਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਪਿਆਲੇ ਬੱਧੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ, ਹੱਥਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਚਉਰੀਆਂ ਫੜੀਆਂ ਹੋਈਆਂ ਹਨ ਤੇ (ਜੀਵ-ਹਿੰਸਾ ਦੇ ਡਰ ਤੋਂ) ਇੱਕ ਕਤਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਤੁਰਦੇ ਹਨ। 

ਨਾ ਓਇ ਜੋਗੀ ਨਾ ਓਇ ਜੰਗਮ ਨਾ ਓਇ ਕਾਜੀ ਮੁੰਲਾ ॥ 

ना ओइ जोगी ना ओइ जंगम ना ओइ काजी मुंला ॥ 
Nā o▫e jogī nā o▫e jangam nā o▫e kājī muŉlā. 
They are not Yogis, and they are not Jangams, followers of Shiva. They are not Qazis or Mullahs. 
ਨਾਂ ਉਹ ਗੋਰਖ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਿੱਸ਼, ਨਾਂ ਸ਼ਿਵ ਦੇ ਉਪਾਸਕ, ਨਾਂ ਹੀ ਮੁਸਲਮ ਮੁਨਸਫ ਤੇ ਮੁਸਲਿਮ ਊਪਦੇਸ਼ਕ ਹਨ। 
ਜੰਗਮ = ਸ਼ਿਵ ਉਪਾਸ਼ਕ ਜੋ ਟੱਲੀਆਂ ਖੜਕਾ ਕੇ ਮੰਗਦੇ ਫਿਰਦੇ ਹਨ।

ਨਾ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਜੋਗੀਆਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਰਹੁਰੀਤ, ਨਾ ਜੰਗਮਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਤੇ ਨਾ ਕਾਜ਼ੀ ਮੌਲਵੀਆਂ ਵਾਲੀ। 
ਦਯਿ ਵਿਗੋਏ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਵਿਗੁਤੇ ਫਿਟਾ ਵਤੈ ਗਲਾ ॥ 

दयि विगोए फिरहि विगुते फिटा वतै गला ॥ 
Ḏa▫yi vigo▫e firėh viguṯe fitā vaṯai galā. 
Ruined by the Merciful Lord, they wander around in disgrace, and their entire troop is contaminated. 
ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਮਾਰੇ ਹੋਏ ਉਹ ਬੇਇਜਤ ਹੋਏ ਫਿਰਦੇ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਸਮੂਹ ਸਮੂਦਾਅ ਭਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। 
ਦਯਿ = ਰੱਬ ਵਲੋਂ {ਦਯੁ =ਪਿਆਰ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ}। ਵਿਗੋਏ = ਖੁੰਝੇ ਹੋਏ। ਵਿਗੁਤੇ = ਖ਼ੁਆਰ। ਫਿਟਾ =ਫਿਟਕਾਰਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ, ਊਤਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ। ਗਲਾ = ਗੱਲਾਂ, ਕੋੜਮਾ, ਸਾਰਾ ਹੀ ਟੋਲਾ।

ਰੱਬ ਵੱਲੋਂ (ਭੀ) ਖੁੰਝੇ ਹੋਏ ਭਟਕਦੇ ਹਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਵਿਚ ਭੀ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਕੋਈ ਸ਼ਰਧਾ ਨਹੀਂ) ਇਹ ਸਾਰਾ ਆਵਾ ਹੀ ਊਤਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। 

ਜੀਆ ਮਾਰਿ ਜੀਵਾਲੇ ਸੋਈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਰਖੈ ॥ 

जीआ मारि जीवाले सोई अवरु न कोई रखै ॥ 
Jī▫ā mār jīvāle so▫ī avar na ko▫ī rakẖai. 
The Lord alone kills and restores to life; no one else can protect anyone from Him. 
ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਧਾਰੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਕੇਵਲ ਓਹੀ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਸੁਰਜੀਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਹੋਰ ਕੋਈ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਬਚਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦਾ। 
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(ਇਹ ਵਿਚਾਰੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਮਝਦੇ ਕਿ) ਜੀਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਰਨ ਜੀਵਾਲਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਹੈ, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ (ਜੀਊਂਦਾ) ਰੱਖ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦਾ। 

ਦਾਨਹੁ ਤੈ ਇਸਨਾਨਹੁ ਵੰਜੇ ਭਸੁ ਪਈ ਸਿਰਿ ਖੁਥੈ ॥ 

दानहु तै इसनानहु वंजे भसु पई सिरि खुथै ॥ 
Ḏānhu ṯai isnānhu vanje bẖas pa▫ī sir kẖuthai. 
They go without giving alms or any cleansing baths; their shaven heads become covered with dust. 
ਉਹ ਪੁੰਨ ਕਰਨੋਂ ਅਤੇ ਮੱਜਨ ਸਾਧਣੋਂ ਵਾਂਞੇ ਰਹਿ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਨੋਚਿਆਂ ਮੂੰਡਾਂ ਉਤੇ ਖੇਹ ਪੈਦੀ ਹੈ। 
ਵੰਜੇ = ਵਾਂਜੇ ਹੋਏ, ਖੁੰਝੇ ਹੋਏ। ਭਸੁ = ਸੁਆਹ।

(ਜੀਵ-ਹਿੰਸਾ ਦੇ ਵਹਿਣ ਵਿਚ ਪੈ ਕੇ, ਕਿਰਤ ਕਮਾਈ ਛੱਡ ਕੇ) ਇਹ ਦਾਨ ਅਤੇ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਤੋਂ ਵਾਂਜੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ, ਸੁਆਹ ਪਈ ਅਜਿਹੇ ਖੁੱਥੇ ਹੋਏ ਸਿਰ ਉੱਤੇ। 

ਪਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਰਤਨ ਉਪੰਨੇ ਮੇਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਮਾਧਾਣੀ ॥ 

पाणी विचहु रतन उपंने मेरु कीआ माधाणी ॥ 
Pāṇī vicẖahu raṯan upanne mer kī▫ā māḏẖāṇī. 
The jewel emerged from the water, when the mountain of gold was used to churn it. 
ਜਦ ਸੁਮੇਰ ਪਰਬਤ ਨੂੰ ਮਧਾਣੀ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਗਿਆ ਤਾਂ ਜਲ ਵਿੱਚੋਂ ਜਵੇਹਰ ਨਿਕਲੇ। 
ਮੇਰੁ = ਸੁਮੇਰ ਪਰਬਤ।

(ਇਹਲੋਕ ਸਾਫ਼ ਪਾਣੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੀਂਦੇ ਤੇ ਪਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਨ੍ਹਾਉਂਦੇ ਭੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਨ, ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਨਹੀਂਸਮਝਦੇ ਕਿ ਜਦੋਂ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੇ) ਸੁਮੇਰ ਪਰਬਤ ਨੂੰ ਮਧਾਣੀ ਬਣਾ ਕੇ (ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਰਿੜਕਿਆ ਦੀ)ਤਦੋਂ (ਪਾਣੀ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਹੀ ਰਤਨ ਨਿਕਲੇ ਸਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਨੂੰ ਤਾਂ ਲੋਕ ਪੁਰਾਣੇ ਸਮਿਆਂਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਜਾਣਦੇ ਹਨ, ਕਿ ਪਾਣੀ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਕੀਮਤੀ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਨਿਕਲਦੇ ਹਨ ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇਕੰਮ ਆਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਆਖ਼ਰ ਉਹ ਪਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਵੜਿਆਂ ਹੀ ਨਿਕਲਣਗੇ)। 

ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਥਾਪੇ ਪੁਰਬੀ ਲਗੈ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ 

अठसठि तीरथ देवी थापे पुरबी लगै बाणी ॥ 
Aṯẖsaṯẖ ṯirath ḏevī thāpe purbī lagai baṇī. 
The gods established the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage, where the festivals are celebrated and hymns are chanted. 
ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਅਠਾਹਟ ਯਾਤਰਾ ਅਸਥਾਨ ਮੁਕੱਰਰ ਕੀਤੇ ਹਨ, ਜਿਥੇ ਤਿਉਹਾਰ ਮਨਾਏ ਅਤੇ ਭਜਨ ਗਾਏ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। 
ਦੇਵੀ = ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ। ਪੁਰਬੀ = ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਮੇਲੇ। ਬਾਣੀ = ਕਥਾ-ਵਾਰਤਾ।

(ਪਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ) ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਲਈ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਤੀਰਥ ਬਣਾਏ ਗਏ ਜਿੱਥੇ ਪੁਰਬ ਲੱਗਦੇ ਹਨ, ਕਥਾ-ਵਾਰਤਾ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ। 

ਨਾਇ ਨਿਵਾਜਾ ਨਾਤੈ ਪੂਜਾ ਨਾਵਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਜਾਣੀ ॥ 

नाइ निवाजा नातै पूजा नावनि सदा सुजाणी ॥ 
Nā▫e nivājā nāṯai pūjā nāvan saḏā sujāṇī. 
After bathing, the Muslims recite their prayers, and after bathing, the Hindus perform their worship services. The wise always take cleansing baths. 
ਗੁਸਲ ਮਗਰੋਂ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਨਿਮਾਜ ਪੜ੍ਹਦੇ ਹਨ, ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਮਗਰੋਂ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਉਪਾਸ਼ਨਾਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਸਿਆਣੇ, ਸਦੀਵ ਹੀ ਨ੍ਹਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ। 
ਨਾਇ = ਨ੍ਹਾ ਕੇ। ਸੁਜਾਣੀ = ਸੁਚੱਜੇ।

ਨ੍ਹਾ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਨਮਾਜ਼ ਪੜ੍ਹੀਦੀ ਹੈ। ਨ੍ਹਾ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ। ਸੁਚੱਜੇ ਬੰਦੇ ਨਿੱਤ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ। 

ਮੁਇਆ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਜਾਂ ਸਿਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਪਾਣੀ ॥ 

मुइआ जीवदिआ गति होवै जां सिरि पाईऐ पाणी ॥ 
Mu▫i▫ā jīvḏi▫ā gaṯ hovai jāŉ sir pā▫ī▫ai pāṇī. 
At the time of death, and at the time of birth, they are purified, when water is poured on their heads. 
ਮਰੇ ਹੋਏ ਤੇ ਜੀਉਂਦੇ ਪਵਿੱਤਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਜਦ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਸੀਸਾਂ ਉਤੇ ਜਲ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। 
ਮੁਇਆ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ = ਮਰਨ ਜੀਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਯੰਤ, ਸਾਰੀ ਉਮਰ, ਜੰਮਣ ਤੋਂ ਮਰਨ ਤਕ। ਗਤਿ = ਸੁਥਰੀ ਹਾਲਤ।

ਸਾਰੀ ਉਮਰ ਹੀ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਸੁਅੱਛ ਹਾਲਤ ਤਾਂ ਹੀ ਰਹਿ ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜੇ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰੇ। 

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਿਰਖੁਥੇ ਸੈਤਾਨੀ ਏਨਾ ਗਲ ਨ ਭਾਣੀ ॥ 

नानक सिरखुथे सैतानी एना गल न भाणी ॥ 
Nānak sirkẖuṯe saiṯānī enā gal na bẖāṇī. 
O Guru Nanak, the shaven-headed ones are devils. They are not pleased to hear these words. 
ਨਾਨਕ ਮੂੰਡ ਖੁਹਾਉਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਭੂਤਨੇ ਹਨ। ਮੱਤ ਦੀ ਗੱਲਬਾਤ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਚੰਗੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੱਗਦੀ। 
xxx

ਪਰ ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਇਹ ਸਿਰ-ਖੁੱਥੇ ਅਜਿਹੇ ਉਲਟੇ ਰਾਹ ਪਏ ਹਨ (ਅਜਿਹੇ ਸ਼ੈਤਾਨ ਹਨ) ਕਿ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਗੱਲ ਚੰਗੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੱਗੀ। 

ਵੁਠੈ ਹੋਇਐ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਜੀਆ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥ 

वुठै होइऐ होइ बिलावलु जीआ जुगति समाणी ॥ 
vuṯẖai ho▫i▫ai ho▫e bilāval jī▫ā jugaṯ samāṇī. 
When it rains, there is happiness. Water is the key to all life. 
ਜਦ ਪਾਣੀ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ, ਖੁਸ਼ੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ। ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੀ ਜਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ ਕੁੰਜੀ ਪਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਮਾਈ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ। 
ਵੁਠੇ = ਮੀਂਹ ਪਿਆਂ। ਸੁਰਹੀ = ਗਾਈਆਂ। ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ = ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ੀ, ਚਾਉ।

(ਪਾਣੀ ਦੀਆਂ ਹੋਰ ਬਰਕਤਾਂ ਤੱਕੋ) ਮੀਂਹ ਪਿਆਂ (ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ) ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ੀ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ। ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੀ ਜੀਵਨ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹੀ (ਪਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ) ਟਿਕੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ। 

ਵੁਠੈ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾ ਸਭਸੈ ਪੜਦਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ 

वुठै अंनु कमादु कपाहा सभसै पड़दा होवै ॥ 
vuṯẖai ann kamāḏ kapāhā sabẖsai paṛ▫ḏā hovai. 
When it rains, the corn grows, and the sugar cane, and the cotton, which provides clothing for all. 
ਜਦ ਪਾਣੀ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ, ਅਨਾਜ, ਗੰਨਾ ਅਤੇ ਕਪਾਸ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਕੱਜਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਚਾਦਰ ਬਣਦੀ ਹੈ। 
xxx

ਮੀਂਹ ਪਿਆਂ ਅੰਨ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਕਮਾਦ ਉੱਗਦਾ ਹੈ, ਕਪਾਹ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਸਭਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਪੜਦਾ ਬਣਦੀ ਹੈ। 

ਵੁਠੈ ਘਾਹੁ ਚਰਹਿ ਨਿਤਿ ਸੁਰਹੀ ਸਾ ਧਨ ਦਹੀ ਵਿਲੋਵੈ ॥ 

वुठै घाहु चरहि निति सुरही सा धनदही विलोवै ॥ 
vuṯẖai gẖāhu cẖarėh niṯ surhī sā ḏẖan ḏahī vilovai. 
When it rains, the cows always have grass to graze upon, and housewives can churn the milk into butter. 
ਜਦ ਮੀਹ ਵਰ੍ਹਦਾ ਹੈ, ਗਾਈਆਂ ਸਦਾ ਘਾਸ ਚਰਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਸੁਆਣੀਆਂ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਦੁੱਧ ਦਾ ਖੱਟਾ ਰਿੜਕਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ। 
ਸਾ ਧਨ = ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ। ਵਿਲੋਵੈ = ਰਿੜਕਦੀ ਹੈ।

ਮੀਂਹ ਪਿਆਂ (ਉੱਗਿਆ) ਘਾਹ ਗਾਈਆਂ ਚੁਗਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ (ਤੇ ਦੁੱਧ ਦੇਂਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ, ਉਸ ਦੁੱਧ ਤੋਂ ਬਣਿਆ) ਦਹੀਂ ਘਰ ਦੀ ਜ਼ਨਾਨੀ ਰਿੜਕਦੀ ਹੈ (ਤੇ ਘਿਉ ਬਣਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ)। 

ਤਿਤੁ ਘਿਇ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਸਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਪਇਐ ਕਾਰਜੁ ਸੋਹੈ ॥ 

तितु घिइ होम जग सद पूजा पइऐ कारजु सोहै ॥ 
Ŧiṯ gẖi▫e hom jag saḏ pūjā pa▫i▫ai kāraj sohai. 
With that ghee, sacred feasts and worship services are performed; all these efforts are blessed. 
ਉਸ ਘਿਓ ਦੇ ਪਾਣ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਹਵਨ ਪਵਿੱਤਰ ਭੰਡਾਰੇ ਅਤੇ ਉਪ੍ਰਾਸ਼ਨਾਵਾ ਨਿੱਤ ਹੀ ਸਰੰਜਾਮ ਦਿੱਤੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਹੋਰ ਸੰਸਕਾਰ ਸੁਸ਼ੋਭਤ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ। 
ਤਿਤੁ ਘਿਇ = ਉਸ ਘਿਉ ਨਾਲ।

ਉਸ ਘਿਉ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ ਸਦਾ ਹੋਮ-ਜੱਗ ਪੂਜਾ ਆਦਿਕ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਇਹ ਘਿਉ ਪਿਆਂ ਹੀ ਹਰੇਕ ਕਾਰਜ ਸੋਭਦਾ ਹੈ। 



> *ਗੁਰੂ ਸਮੁੰਦੁ *ਨਦੀ ਸਭਿ ਸਿਖੀ ਨਾਤੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
> 
> गुरू समुंदु नदी सभि सिखी नातै जितु वडिआई ॥
> Gurū samunḏ naḏī sabẖ sikẖī nāṯai jiṯ vadi▫ā▫ī.
> ...


_Here Guru Nanak Dev ji speak of his Guroo (meaning creator) being like an ocean and all else being like a stream of knowledge, taking a bath even at the level of a small stream is enlightenment.  Guru Nanak ji wraps it that if the shaven headed ones do not take bath in streams of such knowledge which so merges with the creator ocean of such greatness, that throw seven handfuls of ashes onto the heads of such (to shame them).

_Guru ji putting down pakhand/empty rituals in favor of knowledge, understanding and relating to the great ocean, the creator full of all knowledge.

The visuals described by Baba Nanak ji are incredibly wonderful if one has so experienced such in one's living in Punjab and other places where you could relate to all actions, farming, empty rituals, and much of such stuff all around as distinctively stated in this sabad.

So wonderful!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 6, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Another Sabad with Guroo clarification or expansion,
> 
> ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥
> 
> ...


 
In the quote the word of reference is not GuRoo ,the word is with a matra of Aukad.
GuRoo of NANAK is SABADu as per Gurbani.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 6, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> _Prakash.S.Bagga veer ji I don't use transliteration, I can read and understand Punjabi. Transliteration in my posts is for others who cannot read Punjabi and is from Dr. Kulbir Singh Thind ji's work as available through Srigranth.org._
> 
> _I am unclear what you mean I don't like those sites. Perhaps send me a Private Message with information as I don't recall this part but I would like to review again in case I am mistaken._
> 
> ...


 
My understanding in reference of Gurbani is as under

GuR................................EKANKAARu/.GuR JoT(i)/Prabhu....CREATOR

GuRu................................THE KNOWLEDGE/SOURCE OF KNOWLEDGE/

GuRoo.............................SABADu(ASingle Word)

We certainly differ in understanding


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## charanjit (Dec 6, 2011)

The comments below are not intended towards any individual but are intended as a personal insight as this is the trap and the comfort in which I too feel I had fallen:

Sardar Bagga Ji and others,*

You have stated they everyone must makes ones own spiritual journey but that to make it comfortable one is required to make preparation and that Gurbani provides this preparation.*
*You then provide a lovely anecdotal analogy that Gurbani is the map indicating destination the type of luggage and the information for jahaj for undertaking this journey.*
It is quite sad to say but this is just romanticism and fantasy created by your mind. A mind that wants comfort and wants to know that the endeavours it has undertaken in praying to its god will not go unrewarded. Naam simran appears to be nothing more than means of exchange with this thing called the Gu roo/guru/ Goo Roo/ VaheGuRoo/va guroo/ Vah Grou. I
Only mockingly have used the variations of wahe guru because this seems to be the idiocy of Sikhs to discuss such idiotic pedantic matters (something in which I have spent many pointless conversations and time).*

Occasionally I get an email from the spn and then very rarely comment. Each time I access this website the more fundamentally *I understand why I am not a Sikh and will never follow another man. Sikhs are bogged down in far too much lunacy far too much pedantry.*

Has anyone actually sat down and gone through the motions of naam simran. Just slowly think about what you do, when you settle yourself to do naam simran. Repeating the name. Start slowly and understand exactly what you are doing.*

You will sit down. Create in your head that you are the presence of god. You will then slowly repeat his name, not feeling any love you will repeat more and more, you will then start to create a certain state. You will then yearn for more, and then you will vigorously repeat his name in the hope that he hears you. You will then create an image that you are one with this god. You will then imagine that you and he and everything are in unison. One energy.*

This god this thing is only a figment of your imagination and your imagination is limited by your experience. Your experiences are as Sikhs, the god you create will have elements and characteristics of your past your history. Others brought up in different religions will experience a Christian god with a white beard and white clothes. This is just mere imagination. I too have created these fantastical ideas and have been stuck in these limited perceptions for too long. I am sorry to say that there is no magic formula in the words vaheguru or however which way you wish to spell it.*
Even though I say all these things unfortunately your conditioning is too deeply ingrained and you will be incapable of moving from your past and tradition. These are dead things which you/we try to bring to life, we bring them to life with our imagination which again is dead and of the past. There is no life in the past.*

I will now make mention of Nanak. And I am certain that after you have read what I have to say about him you will again fall in the trap of following his empty foot steps. You will also be offended that I have called them empty footsteps, for sadly you are stuck and attached to words. *Just watch yourself and you will see, how much slaves we are to following people. The Sikh will never be free.*

Now watch yourself carefully as you slowly read these words.*

"Nanak said sochai soch an hovai
Jih Sochi lakh var.
This my dear friends is a warning to you that all your prayers and simran are a figment of your imagination. You may convince yourself that it is something else. I can assure you it is totally empty. Watch yourself. Watch yourself when you prayer and you will see for yourself that your prayer is only out of greed and self interest. That you may gain something. It is all a creation of your mind.*

Otherwise I hope you all find what you are looking for. If you are content with another man's dusty footprints, then so be it. ( I am certain that some of you reading this will say to yourself that you are content with nanak's dusty prints, if so, so be it)

Take care


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 6, 2011)

charanjit said:


> The comments below are not intended towards any individual but are intended as a personal insight as this is the trap and the comfort in which I too feel I had fallen:
> 
> Sardar Bagga Ji and others,*
> 
> ...


 
Although I am impressed with your nicely worded presentation but I findthat your views are very much divergent to the concepts of Gurbani itself.
I feel you are considering GuRu Nanak as a person and refer to the footprints accordingly.Without saying much I feel you require to look into the Basic concepts of Gurbani you may probably realise the real role of Gurbani in any oneslife.
Your views are always most welcome.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Dec 6, 2011)

Charanjitji

Whilst I agree with your sentiments to some extent, try and remember that we are all different, here on this forum there are meditators, sewadars, Gurbani studiers, Gurbani practicers. There are those that wish to serve Creation, there are those that wish to serve themselves, there are those that wish to serve Creator, in short, quite a few different types. 

We are all made different, if we concentrate on the differences, yes we will be here all day, however, if we focus on the similarities, and try and learn and understand each others differences, then we have all learnt something. 

I am not a great fan of Simran, or Naam Jaap, but I absolutely respect the right of any Sikh to do it, and find a connection through it. 

Your most wonderful post was only marred for me by the slight tinge of arrogance and lack of respect for anothers way. There is no right universal way, only the right way for the individual, and even if that turns out to be the wrong way, respect the road of learning, it has many twists and u turns.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 6, 2011)

CHARANJEET SINGH Ji,
If from Gurbani I come to know that GuRu Nanak is giving the message as
 "Prabh Kaa Simran Sabh Te OOChaa"
Should I not know Who is Prabh and What is the Simran of Prabh.?
I look  forward to your valuable views regarding this 
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## charanjit (Dec 6, 2011)

Prakash Bagga Ji

Unfortunately I do view Nanak as nothing other than a man. Man is all I know. 

In relation to your question as to whether you should know prabh and what is the simran of prabh, I would simply say that if we have to ask the question we will never know. There is no way the other can help. If we are not able to see for ourselves no one can open our eyes. I would say its similar to the Buddhist anecdote of an enlightened monk pointing to the moon with his finger. We are too fixed on the finger and not able to look past the finger to see the moon for ourselves.  

Spn sent me email link to this thread  Unfortunately I have fallen foul of the well known aphorism "the devil makes work for idle hands" and decided to comment and have caused some mischief. 

Harry Haller ji and Prakash Bagga Ji I absolutely value your comments and must say it has been a joy challenging and understanding my own prejudices. One must always remain open.  I will get back to work and give commenting a rest until next month when the idle hands get the better of me again. 

Best regards. 

Charanjit


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## Harry Haller (Dec 6, 2011)

Charanjitji

A pity

some might call it mischief, I would call it a duty to impart your views, and allow us to integrate it into our thinking


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 6, 2011)

Charanjit ji,

Guru Fateh.

Interesting perspective to say the least. I have some questions about your post.

1. Please define/ describe God in your mind.

2. What is your definition of Simran?

3. Please explain in your own words what you understand about the pangti you quoted from Jap and what does your comment mean after that? 



> "Guru Nanak said sochai soch an hovai
> Jih Sochi lakh var.
> 
> This my dear friends is a warning to you that all your prayers and  simran are a figment of your imagination. You may convince yourself that  it is something else. I can assure you it is totally empty. Watch  yourself. Watch yourself when you prayer and you will see for yourself  that your prayer is only out of greed and self interest. That you may  gain something. It is all a creation of your mind.*



Once I understand what you are talking about, then only I can respond and learn from you.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 6, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> TEJWANT SINGHJI,,
> REF.....................WORD GuRu
> 
> guru prmysuru pUjIAY min qin lwie ipAwru ] (52-9)
> ...




Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the 2 Shabads posted by you. I am sorry to say, I can not read your font. Please copy & paste from srigranth.org. The font from this site is legible.

Secondly, you forgot the most important part. I had requested you to explain the Shabad in your own words. The explanation of the WHOLE SHABAD in your own words is a must because of your grammar expertise. We are talking about understanding of Gurbani- Shabad Guru- not discussing the difference between the 3 types of words Gur,Guru,Guroo.

Hope to learn from your expertise.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 6, 2011)

charanjit said:


> I will now make mention of Guru Nanak. And I am certain that after you  have read what I have to say about him you will again fall in the trap  of


. You will also be offended that I have  called them empty footsteps, for sadly you are stuck and attached to  words. *Just watch yourself and you will see, how much slaves we are to  following people. _The Sikh will never be free._*[/QUOTE]

Charanjit ji, some comments on parts of your post,_Your Handle says "Learner", can you identify what you are learning as you will see later you have learnt little from your perceived ability to translate Gurbani let alone do it in a scholarly or learned way,_

_Can you please clarify "empty foot steps" underlines above.  Which full footsteps are you recognizing or understanding of?_
_I believe your hands are too tired till some times next month to share your wisdom 
_
_Your wisdom is like baloney to me and perhaps for you all Sikhs beliefs or knowledge in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is baloney to you_
_I so await your next precise post of facts with baited breath lol  :whatzpointsing:
_
 
 
Let us slowly read your further pearls of wisdom (as per your suggestion _*I am reading very slowly but find nothing to read  *_lol lol


> Now watch yourself carefully as you slowly read these words.*
> "Guru Nanak said sochai soch an hovai
> Jih Sochi lakh var.
> _This my dear friends is a warning to you_ _(Never met someone so caring _mundahug)that all your prayers and  simran are a figment of your imagination. You may convince yourself that  it is something else. I can assure you it is totally empty. Watch  yourself. Watch yourself when you prayer and you will see for yourself  that your prayer is only out of greed and self interest.


 ਸੋਚੈ  ਸੋਚਿ  ਨ  ਹੋਵਈ  ਜੇ  ਸੋਚੀ  ਲਖ  ਵਾਰ  ॥ 

ਜੇ ਮੈਂ ਲੱਖ ਵਾਰੀ (ਭੀ) (ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਆਦਿਕ ਨਾਲ ਸਰੀਰ ਦੀ) ਸੁੱਚ ਰੱਖਾਂ, (ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ) ਸੁੱਚ ਰੱਖਣ ਨਾਲ (ਮਨ ਦੀ) ਸੁੱਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹਿ ਸਕਦੀ
_Taking 100's of thousands of baths (like dipping in Ganga, etc.) your mind will not become pure_

Next time in India try a bath in the grand Ganges and see if it helps you think clear and pure.  mundahug 



> That you may  gain something. It is all a creation of your mind.*


_So Charanjit ji what you say is not creation of your mind._

If you are  content with another man's dusty footprints, then so be it. ( I am  certain that some of you reading this will say to yourself that you are  content with _Guru Nanak's dusty prints_, if so, so be it) Take care [/QUOTE]_I am sorry Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not Guru Nanak Dev ji's dusty foot prints._ _Where are you learning this from or who is teaching or taught you this?  

_Take care of yourself, you wouldn't be the first one to insult Guru ji.  In one such case of a young one kicking Guru ji, Guru ji called the kid over and started massaging his feet in case the kids nimble bones got hurt versus Guru jis older hardened body.

If you are a juvenile, I suggest you to do some primary research and learn, read and then write.  I apologize to you for hurting your feelings.

If you are adult of sound mind and body shame on you for mis-quoting, mis-interpreting Gurbani and abusing Guru ji's name when he is not here to defend himself.

Hopefully you will meet some local Sikhs that you can review your thoughts with and then report back an affirmation or correction of your thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal, or whatever, as perhaps this is not the greeting you are used to. mundahug


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## ravneet_sb (Dec 7, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

What one give, so one gets.

Its Sat Sangat, congregation for seeker's of truth.

Let's shed our "EGO" personal awareness, 

Let's join "Sat Sangat" as foolish ignorant, and learn from each other.

and not feel self as an enlightened soul's.

As the knowledge is "Ocean" and one has "POT"  one pot cannot have ocean.

So one can merge his "POT" in "Ocean" and be part of "SAT SANGAT"


Each one has supreme experience's from life.

Keep some place in mind to receive, chance to deliver is also there.

"Deliver way one expects to receive"

There is etiquette, 

needs to be followed by  one in "SAT SANGAT". 

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Dec 7, 2011)

> say to yourself that you are content with _Guru Nanak's dusty prints_, if so, so be it


 
Veera, Divine Guru Nanak's foot dust is like gold dust,ofcourse it can make the greediest man content,everyone knows the Guru's Word is not dust, but it does help us differentiate between that which is dust and that which is dust-free, and it goes onto explain that this is only possible through _dustiny._


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## Navdeep88 (Dec 8, 2011)

Simran, because it occupies a lot of the time I spent driving to and from school, and work. It gives contentment, and even confidence to do well.


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 19, 2011)

Navdeep88 said:


> Simran, because it occupies a lot of the time I spent driving to and from school, and work. It gives contentment, and even confidence to do well.


I am no biology Major but perhaps someone can comment.  I believe doing Simran perhaps releases all kind of chemicals and perhaps dependent upon the vigor with which it is done, may be a lot of Adrenalin.

What gets released or gets reduced in release during calming Simran, I do not know.

Any comments.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Dec 19, 2011)

Gurfatehji,

Ambarsariaji, maybe you should try it, so you have an understanding of what happens, in an effort to see what all the fuss was about, I decided to do some meditation/chanting to see what happened. 

I chose the most relaxing place in the house, a hot bath, where I do all my thinking, and I shut the door so the animals could not come in. I then put the lights out and sat in the bath. Closing my eyes, I emptied my head, and fixed my thoughts on nothing, and started chanting Waheguru, in time to my breathing, sure enough, I was racing through the stars, universes, clouds, oceans, mountains, it was a real good light show, then I switched words, and chanted Dell, nothing changed, the effect was the same, I was in fact retreating into my mind, something I knew would happen, and as pleasant as it was, the crux here is many would believe that retreating into your mind is getting close to God, becoming part of the one, the whole, and they may be correct, but I have to add that once I had finished, I knew no more, nor any less then when I had started, normally in the bath, I play around with the banks of switches in my head, and flick them off and on and see what happens, or I think of the thieves, and what can be done about them, or whether I am in control, or I am in Hukam, or I am a slave to a thief, I fantasise about having them all tied up and pulling me in a sled, I think about how I am going to achieve this, how it would affect my current mental setup, I can spend hours in that bath debating internally 

On reflection, I got bored quite quickly with the light show, I had had this feeling before, its called being high, where you just sit back and watch, there is no interaction, just visuals, I myself prefer the debating, after a while, I may get up from the bath having resolved to try something new to trap the thieves, it may work, it may not, but those bath sessions have worked well for me, it was in that very bath a year ago I resolved to find a forum or like minded souls to interact with, to kill off all the sub personalities, to realise what being a Sikh meant to me, 

However, we are all different, I am sure there are those that get inspiration from this sort of Simran, maybe they are unable to debate, so there is no light show, maybe their place is with Simran and not debate, maybe I am not meant to see anything other than what I saw

Hey, all roads lead to Rome, ours is not to understand or judge, as long as the end result is what Guruji wanted, each to his own


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 19, 2011)

Thanks veer Harry ji, hopefully the water was not scalding hot that you started seeing flashes  winkingmunda
It is amazing what imagery gets created by mind all the time.  Some related to conscious and a whole bunch to unconscious!  Fun stuff.

I like your Dell versus Waheguru experiment.  Perhaps if you closed your eyes in your shop and chanted Dell you may see something different.  Very hard to change mind flows and I bet that is what happened in your bath mundahug

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 19, 2011)

That is why I do not call repeating one or 2 any words Simran because  that is not what it means in Sikhi. 

Harry ji is right, even Barry White in the background singing," You are my first, my last, my everything" will do or may be will do much better.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Dec 19, 2011)

> a hot bath, where I do all my thinking,


 
Harry Veer Ji What might be missing is the secret ingredient Radox ,anyway you are doing better than me,when I'm in the bath I usually just scrub!


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## Ambarsaria (Jan 10, 2016)

Just to chill out, lot of heavy lifting in this thread and bruises,

You Are The First, My Last, My Everything (Barry White)      - YouTube

Lou Rawls - You'll Never Find Another Love Like Mine  (1976)      - YouTube

Great songs by Barry and Lou,

Sat Sri Akal.

PS:  Perhaps off-topic let us delete after we enjoy :motherlylove:


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