# Are Faith Schools A Good Idea?



## findingmyway (Sep 13, 2010)

*Faith schools only serve to alienate members of society*

                                                                             September 8, 2010                                by       Hannah Davies ~ The Journal                                        Source:
​ 
_Sep 8 2010: _*AS CHILDREN return to a new school year many of them will also be returning to the celebration of faiths they do not believe in.*

 That’s just one of the myriad of problems with faith schools, whether Evangelical, Catholic, Muslim, Jewish or other.

 I would ban all state association with faith schools, all of them. Education is about educating, it is not about indoctrinating.

 We live in a free society where anyone can practice any religion openly and without risk of prosecution.

 Why then do we allow schools to exist which openly preach one way of life is better than another?

 There’s no place for promoting one religion above the other in a  modern multicultural society and faith schools do nothing but encourage  the separation of society and alienation of different groups within it.

 As an atheist growing up and attending the local Church of England  Schools, primary and comprehensive, I felt very alienated by the  religious practices which occurred throughout my childhood. I was told  by one pupil I’d “die tomorrow” when I confessed to not believing in God  (admittedly we were about six) and, in the end, I just used to chant  along, eyes shut, to be the same as everyone else.

 I imagine it’d have been even more alienating if I’d been a Sikh.

 There is a place for education on religion. It's called religious education.
 That’s the correct place to discuss different theologies in a comparative context.

 It's important to educate children about different religions because  it promotes the understanding of different people and cultures. Which is  exactly what faith schools do not do.

 They teach one particular religion is worthy of more attention than others, which is wrong.

 Many parents actively seek to get their children into faith schools.  Often that’s more to do with results than religious beliefs.

 Increasing numbers of parents, who are atheist or at best agnostic,  find their children having to take part in the rituals of a religion  they don’t believe in, in exchange for a decent education.

 Because that is often the pay-off. Frequently faith schools are seen  as desirable, because of the extra funding they get, from churches or  religious philanthropists.

 This desirability is a situation which perpetuates itself. And faith schools’ admission policies are often much more selective.

And  so you get people exaggerating their church-going (a couple of times a  year for weddings and christenings) or even claiming a faith which they  don’t have to get their children into schools.

 And there is another compromise, which is more worrying. Faith  schools often preach under the guise of education which is to my mind  indefensible.

 Lets take Creationism.

 Science is a discipline founded on the basis of provable fact and yet there are faith schools teaching Creationism as science.

 This is simply just taking a belief system and placing it into a discipline where it has absolutely no right to be.

 We may as well teach TS Elliot’s “This is the way the world ends, Not  with a bang but a whimper,” a scientific fact about the end of the  world rather than “Armageddon”.

 But let’s face it, it isn’t definite fact is it? It’s comment on the  human condition and how we fit into the world, just as religion is a way  of making sense of the world.

 Religion is theory and conjecture, not fact – and science is based on fact.
 Also faith schools can either knowingly, or let’s give them the  benefit of doubt, unknowingly, preach levels of intolerance which are  unacceptable in modern society.

 Let’s look at the issue of homosexuality. You have schools preaching  the Bible or Koran or Torah that same sex relationships are “wrong”.

 Chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus for example say: “Thou shalt not lie  with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.”, and “If a man  also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have  committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood  shall be upon them”.

 Of course most people following religions are moderate people, and  there are plenty of homosexual priests, but faith schools which preach  the Bible as indefatigable truth are indoctrinating people and  influencing people negatively.

 It’s not like there is no other time for people to get involved with  their faith either. That’s why churches have Sunday schools and there’s  mosques and Hindu temples – pretty much every religion you know offers  some kind of education for its young outside of school hours.

 We live in an increasingly diverse society and our education system,  which is largely based on equality, should treat faiths on an equal  footing in religious education.

 Parents who want to can always pay to send their children to a private faith school.

 But state sponsorship is a different matter. Free education for all should be based on education only, not indoctrination.

 Society has always worked best when it is integrated, when rich live  alongside poor, when Muslims live alongside Christians. You separate  people and you create a “difference”, which leads to misunderstandings.

 My child will be able to follow his own religious path and I want him  to make up his own mind. Inevitably there will be influence from my  husband and myself and our cultural traditions – we celebrate Christian  festivals for example.

 But I don’t want him to feel the alienation I did growing up in a  religious education system. I want his education to be completely  non-secular leaving him to determine his own spiritual path when he is  old enough to do so.

http://www.journallive.co.uk/lifest...alienate-members-of-society-61634-27220656/2/


 
*UK's first Sikh temple school opens its doors *
By Poonam Taneja                 BBC Asian Network                                                                                                                       







                                                                     Headteacher Kawal Singh gives a tour of the UK's first Sikh temple school

                         The  UK's first school to be established by a Sikh temple has opened at  Southall in West London, home to one of the largest Sikh communities in  the country.

         A special tandoor will cook traditional Punjabi cuisine. And  the classrooms of the Khalsa Voluntary Aided Primary School are painted  in the Sikh colours of saffron and blue.

The alphabet is carved into the walls in Gurmukhi - the most  common script used for writing Punjabi. While the Nishan Sahib, the Sikh  flag, triangular and saffron-coloured, hangs from a tall, stone pole.

        We will always make sure we are a school in England - we are looking at British Sikhs who are going to be global citizens”
End Quote     Kawal Singh     Headteacher          

"Whatever we teach will be underpinned by Sikh values and ethos," says the new school's headteacher Kawal Singh.

Pupils will study the national curriculum but will also learn the Punjabi language and Sikh history. 

Mrs Singh says the pupils will also learn about other faiths  and they will celebrate religious festivals including Christmas and  Diwali. 

         And 20% of places are reserved for non-Sikhs.

         "We will always make sure we are a school in England - that  we are looking at British Sikhs who are going to be global citizens."

         "We have relationships with other schools, which are not Sikh schools, where the children have visited" says Mrs Singh. 

         "They have visited us in the gurdwara, so we will make sure that we always remain in the mainstream.  

         There are currently 170 children at the school and it is already oversubscribed.

         It will grow as new pupils join the reception class each year, until it reaches capacity of 470.

         Although there are three other state-funded Sikh schools in  the UK, this is the first to be officially affiliated to a gurdwara. 

   Sikh values






*Mantej Singh Notay's son will attend the new school   
*
       Mantej Singh Notay is confident the new school is right for his son Arjun.
         "He will mix with teachers that are living by Sikh values. He  will mix with teachers that have values of their own, whether they are  Sikh or not. 
         "He can live and learn in the environment we have chosen to send him to because we are comfortable with that environment.

         "I was the first child in my school who had a turban and I had problems with that. I had my turban knocked off, I got bullied. 

         "So for me it is about trying to get him all the knowledge,  the ammunition, he needs to live his life as a strong Sikh and also as a  strong person in society.

         "Coming to a Sikh school, he will get all the educational  factors but he will also get with that all the Sikh factors and come out  as a better human being as a result of it."

   Oversubscribed           A huge, stone arch marks the entrance to the cedar-clad, two-storey building which is in a conservation area. 

         There is a kitchen, garden and woodland trail for the  children to explore. School lunches will be strictly vegetarian, in  accordance with Sikh teachings.

         At the heart of the school is a temple that contains the Sikh holy book, the Guru Granth Sahib.

         Here, pupils will remove their shoes and cover their heads, starting the day with 20 minutes of prayer before lessons. 

         "There has been pressure for a long time from the community  to start a gurdwara school," says Surinder Singh Purewal, the  General-Secretary at the Sri Guru Singh Sabha Gurdwara, the largest Sikh  temple outside India.
         "In India, gurdwaras run schools as well as colleges. In the  Sikh holy scriptures, there is a lot of emphasis on educating kids, so  that is where it comes from."

         The local community raised £5m of the total £12m cost of the  new state of the art, environmentally-friendly building, with the  remainder of the funding coming from the Department for Education.

         And Mr Purewal is confident other Sikh temples will follow their example.
         "I know that other gurdwaras are already looking at it. They are thinking of taking a leaf out of this book. 

         "It can be done and we will give our help and advice to anyone who wants to do it."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11197447


Any thoughts??


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## kds1980 (Sep 13, 2010)

Faith schools are a must for minority Religions Like Sikhs,Jews etc for there survival.The kids of minority Religions are always under so much pressure from society ,Media ,Tv to behave,dress like majority.In that type of environment Faith school is like a boon where they can learn a lot about there Religion.


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## Seeker9 (Sep 13, 2010)

Ultimately I would have to say that I think they are not a good idea. I stay in the West of Scotland...a geographic region that has had a strong influence from Northern Irish migrants.
Religious bigotry between Catholics and Protestants is rife..it's like a social disease

And as long as there are separate schools building these barriers in young impressionable children in their formative years, it is unlikely this sad position will ever change

I believe there is a place for religious schooling at home or in a temple but not permanently in a place of education. 

One global world religion is unlikely to happen in my or my great great grandchildren's (I should be so lucky!) lifetime. Shame as Sikhism would be ideal being more tolerant and less dogmatic and not steeped in irrelevant ritual

So as long as different belief systems exist, we should acknowledge and embrace their rich diversity and take what is best from all of them. Instead of nurturing differences that will last a lifetime and flow through to subsequent generations


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## Seeker9 (Sep 13, 2010)

Having said all that in my last post, it would be really fascinating to see what fine citizens develop from the Sikh school and how they compare to their peers in non-Sikh schools both in terms of academic achievement and their place in and contribution to wider society....


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## Archived_Member16 (Sep 13, 2010)

*Faith schools are a recipe for social disaster*

*Only mixed education can properly dispel ignorance and fear*

by Jonathan Romain 

THIS may get me into trouble. On Monday the Jewish New Year begins. Unlike the secular new year — largely a boisterous time characterised by revelry and champagne — Rosh Hashannah is a very serious and sober occasion. 

Jews spend the day in synagogue, even the lapsed ones who do not normally attend services. We reflect on our conduct during the past 12 months and make resolutions to repeat the good things we did, remedy the hurts we caused and set goals for the coming year. 

Here lies my problem. My resolution this year may make sense to some, but will be seen as heresy to others, especially fellow rabbis (and many vicars and imams). I resolve to speak out against faith schools, a trend that is rooted in good intent but carries many dangers. 

I have every admiration for those who wish to pass on their religious heritage to the next generation, and indeed spend much of my life doing so, both as a congregational rabbi and as a parent. For this very reason, Judaism has no equivalent of monks and nuns, and sees no point in being celibate, for one definition of a good Jew is one who has a Jewish child.

This accounts for the surprising inclusion of Isaac alongside Abraham and Jacob in the Jewish list of the Patriarchs. Frankly, he was rather a nonentity compared with his illustrious father and powerful son, but his great merit was maintaining the link, without which there would have been no Jacob, nor subsequent history. 

The problem with faith schools is not their purpose but their consequences. They may be designed to inculcate religious values, but they result in religious ghettos, which can destabilise the social health of the country at large. 

Even those faith schools that genuinely try to reach out to the wider community and teach good citizenship still segregate Jewish, Muslim or Catholic children from each other and bring them up in what amounts to an educational apartheid system. 

Lack of contact leads to ignorance of each other, which can breed suspicion and produce fear and hostility. The best way of finding out about members of other religions is not by reading books, but by mixing with them. 

I want my children to sit next to a Sikh in class, play football in the break with a Methodist, do homework with a Hindu and walk to the bus stop with a Muslim before returning to their Jewish home. That way they will see how much they have in common, realise where they differ, and find each other interesting rather than threatening. It is equally important for Catholic and Muslim youngsters to understand why my children are Jewish and what that means. 

Moreover, it is not just the children who are being cut off from each other in faith schools, but parents too. They cannot meet and form friendships with mothers and fathers from other traditions at the school gate, at sports days or at parent-techer association meetings. We need to work hard in the opposite direction: the more multifaith Britain becomes, the more we have to ensure that different groups do not grow apart. 

We have already had a warning. After the riots in Bradford and Burnley, the Ouseley report blamed the segregation in schools for heightening the divide between different local communities. It was not the sole reason, but a contributing factor. 

We also saw the terrible scenes of Catholic children having to run the gauntlet of screaming Protestants to reach Holy Cross School in Belfast. Had those Protestant parents mixed with Catholic children 30 years ago, they might have grown up knowing that Catholics are not demons but ordinary kids who eat crisps and enjoy skateboarding. 30 years later those Protestants might not have been so fearful or hate-filled as to man barricades against children. 

In England, thankfully, we have not such dire problems — but it seems madness to consciously lay the foundations that might produce them. By creating a range of separate faith schools, we will prevent integration and encourage separation. We have spent more than a century ridding ourselves of class divisions; why now rush to replace them with religious barriers?

My preferred solution would be to encourage schools that are cross-religious: neither allied to one particular faith nor given to regarding religion as a waste of time. Instead, they should treat faith seriously, while accommodating aetheism, and should explore the richness of each tradition. 

At the same time, such schools would seek to replicate the undoubted achievements of some faith schools — be it academic success, parental involvement or moral climate — and harness them to a more inclusive environment. Meanwhile, children should receive their religious direction from the source that has the greatest impact: the home. This can be supplemented by after-school classes or weekend religion schooling if parents so wish. 

Schools must build bridges, not erect barriers. However good some faith schools are individually, collectively they are a recipe for social disaster.

Leaders of all faiths should put aside religious self-interest and make national cohesion a higher priority. At the same time, MPs who can see political advantage in supporting local sectarian demands should have the courage to ignore calls for religious preferences and work towards the greater good of communal integration. 

Of course, the more tolerant and harmonious society is as a whole, the safer and more valued are its component parts, especially minority ones. All sectors will be better off if we maintain our own traditions, but study and play alongside each other, respecting differences but sharing common values. It will also lead to brighter prospects at this time of year. 

_Rabbi Dr Jonathan Romain is minister of Maidenhead Synagogue and author of Reform _Judaism and Modernity _(SCM Press)_

_- timesonline (UK)_


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## findingmyway (Sep 14, 2010)

I wonder whether the solution should be regional. In places like UK, Canada, US, faith schools would be a BAD idea as it increases differences, prejudice, misunderstanding, suspicion and divisions. Religious education about all faiths should be made more comprehensive in every school. However, Indian society works very differently and Hinduism in particular likes to amalgamate every other culture into it's fold. Maybe faith schools there are not such a bad idea as long as all schools teach tolerance of others.
Any thoughts?


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## Seeker9 (Sep 14, 2010)

findingmyway said:


> I wonder whether the solution should be regional. In places like UK, Canada, US, faith schools would be a BAD idea as it increases differences, prejudice, misunderstanding, suspicion and divisions. Religious education about all faiths should be made more comprehensive in every school. However, Indian society works very differently and Hinduism in particular likes to amalgamate every other culture into it's fold. Maybe faith schools there are not such a bad idea as long as all schools teach tolerance of others.
> Any thoughts?



It's an interesting concept
I wonder though  how effective they would be in practice when it comes to dealing with caste issues...which is less of a problem in Western society


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## kds1980 (Sep 14, 2010)

Well It also depend Whether your faith school is of minority religion or majority Religion.Minorities don't need to know about majority Religion because friends, TV ,media ,Govt give them enough information about majority Religion.On the Other hand majority hardly know about Minority Religion,their festivals.If you people talk to  non sikh persons that studied 
in Sikh schools,majority of them have respect and appreciation for sikhism.ON the other hand a very very large part of India has no knowledge of Sikhs For most of them we are just an extended branch of hardcore Punjabi's


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## dalbirk (Sep 14, 2010)

Kanwardeep Ji ,
            Even in Punjab religious studies in non-existent in 100% of so called Sikh schools . The only notable exception is the schools being run by Akal Acadamy , Baru Sahib . In many of these SIKH schools Punjabi language is non-existent , Hindi is the medium of conversation . This is the situation in Punjab , no wonder 99% of Sikhs in Punjab have no knowledge of the existence of a code of conduct called SIKH REHAT MARYADA . If religious studies are to be given then it is Punjab of all the areas first of all where in the garb of secularism Brahminism is rampant all over .


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 14, 2010)

findingmyway said:


> I wonder whether the solution should be regional. In places like UK, Canada, US, faith schools would be a BAD idea as it increases differences, prejudice, misunderstanding, suspicion and divisions. Religious education about all faiths should be made more comprehensive in every school. However, Indian society works very differently and Hinduism in particular likes to amalgamate every other culture into it's fold. Maybe faith schools there are not such a bad idea as long as all schools teach tolerance of others.
> Any thoughts?



Jasleen ji,

Guru Fateh.

Interesting thought!

And, Soul Jyot ji, thanks for an interesting article.

In the Sikhi spirit of full disclosure, I would like to say that  we have two family trusts and my brother started 2 Khalsa schools, in Vancouver BC. One was burned down last year and was reconstructed. The high school is also in a brand new building which was built from scratch because the building they were interested in, the Nanaksar cult also had an interest, rather than creating a tug of war, they gave up on the building which was eventually bought by Nanaksar cult and remains closed most of the year.

The Khalsa Schools are the 10 best in BC which is not a small thing.

Our family's two trusts also have two Sikh  schools in India. One in Ferozepore and the other in Delhi. We also distribute Sikh religious books and other books that are needed to about 1000 schools scattered in the villages and small towns in Punjab  and also pay salaries of the teachers  in many Sikh schools.

I wanted to share this back ground to make my point. My two kids Jaskeerat, 22 and Trimaan 15 would not want to go to Khalsa Schools. They would want to be in the schools where they are able to intermingle with other cultures and learn their values just like the article above mentions. 

In fact, Jaskeerat's one of the minors is Theology and when she was a Sophomore, her paper on 3rd century Romans vs the Christians was accepted by the faculty which she presented at the seminar. In her Junior year, she is working as an assistant to her Theology professor and is enjoying it. She was the second one in Clark Country School district history to get Gates Millennium Scholarship till her Phd in any school of her choosing in the US. Only 1000 are chosen yearly from more than 13000 applicants. She is planning to spend her Spring semester in London. She is doing double major and double minor and is an honour student.

My son, Trimaan has been the only visual Sikh in Henderson since the age of 3 and  he tackled his problems in his own way. In fact he wrote an essay about it in his High school which can be found here in this forum.

The funny part is that he was upset that this year when he came to know that there are 2 more visible Sikhs at his Advanced Technology Magnet Academy.

One of the two Sikhs is from India but the other one is from Vegas and he had had  problems in his middle school which was solved with the help of Saldef and myself. I went to his school with his Dad after Saldef had sent them a letter about his turban being removed and many other things. The school has an African American majority. As, his dad did not speak English, I was authorised to speak and be in touch with the school on his behalf.

One day, the Principle of this Middle School wanted to talk to me and have a meeting. During the meeting I found out that this Sikh kid was the one provoking the African Americans and calling them Niggers etc etc. I talked to him and his dad about it. Then on the other day Trimaan saw him  having an argument with a black student in his new High school.

Trimaan is well liked in his school. He is a great debater and has won debates contests against the Juniors and Seniors in his freshman year. In fact he spoke about Sikhi and the case about Kirpan in the law class that the School offers. He participated  in the "Trials by Peers" program during his summer vacation, passed his bar exams and was sworn in by the judge last week. He and his other mates who passed the Bar exam will get real cases and act as Defense attorneys and  Prosecutors in the court. He seems to be enjoying it. 

His only fear is  that other Sikhs should not act in such manner where people may lump all of the Sikhs as the one who is provoking the African Americans.

The interesting part is that in the other thread being discussed about hair and nails, the thread writer  wants to find justification in himself to keep or cut his hair and in this case, a Sikh is trying his best to be outstanding in all aspects and considers his turban and Sikhi as assets and the same goes for Jaskeerat.


Tejwant Singh


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## bsc1 (Sep 16, 2010)

I grew up in Southall west London through the 70's and 80's . While the majority were Asian (Sikh's (50%) , Hindu's(25%) ,Muslim's(15%) ,Christian (10%) approximate figures. We had quite a mix of Asian /white/black mix and generally everyone got along well with each other.

We used to attend morning assembly and sang Christian hymns and celebrated Diwali along with Christmas. No problems… I’m still a Sikh and the pupils I still catch up with are still Sikh/Muslim/Hindu.

Then along come the late 90’s and eventually 9/11….this is when problems start in my part of London.

The Muslim community have started to demand Eid as a national holiday and in the schools around Southall they have the day off from school ( the other kid’s have to stay off as well) but never for the other beliefs do you get a day off school.

The Muslim community demand Halal food at schools and all the non-Muslim’s have to consume this food as well but are never told about it.
The Muslim community has been boosted by an influx of Somali immigrants and Afghan refugee’s. While the Muslim numbers are slightly behind the Sikh’s in Southall , they are catching up through birth rate’s.

Had my children attended any of the main-stream schools in my area ,they would have had Islam indirectly forced into their daily life against my will. This is why my children attend the Guru Nanak Sikh School in Hayes.
At this school there are Muslim teacher’s and a handful of Muslim student’s…WHY you may ask…simple the Sikh faith NEVER force’s anyone to convert or follow it’s path. The Muslim students feel safe in the environment where every belief is respected. At the same time NO Sikh/Hindu/Christian will attend a Islamic school (and there are a few !)…why you ask…Islam is a belief of conversions ( convert 1 non believer in your lifetime and all your sin’s are forgiven !! )

Before anyone complains that I am racist or an Islamophobic  let me reassure you I’m not , I was against the Iraq war and I helped work colleagues with a collection for the Pakistan floods.


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## Harry Rakhraj (Sep 22, 2010)

I, and my 8 siblings, attended a Catholic Mission School ( a Convent School at that!). Every school day began with a general assembly of the entire student populace, and the entire school staff, teaching and others. The assembly was headed by the Mother Superior who led with the Lord's prayer, followed by Christian hymns.
The first period in every class began with Bible Study, Catechism & Morals. Every school day ended with a class recital of the Hail Mary. By the time we graduated, and long before that, we knew all the major Christian prayers ( the Lord's prayer, the Act of Contrition, Hail Mary et al) by heart. 

Outside school we never attended any Religious classes in a temple or even at home. We were never compelled by our parents to attend any religious function or even a temple. Of our own accord, however, we attended the congregation at the local Gurdwara as also all Sikh Festivals & Gurpurbs. 

I am not trying to make any point. In fact I don't have a point. I just thought I would share this with the readers. So here it is! We studied in the same Catholic Mission school for 11 long years.  We are Sikhs and remain staunch, rational, thinking Sikhs still.


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## loverofknowledge (Sep 22, 2010)

Hello. I am a person just learning about Sikhism for the first time. Anyway, I used to attend a church where there was a faith-based school. I believe that they can definitely be horrible. They can be full of hate and intolerance as this school was. I think, however, that many of the values involved in good character should continue to be taught in some form in a school. An atheist shouldn't be forced to pray. They need to either make the public schools better or make more of the private schools, as someone put it, "crossreligious". 





Soul_jyot said:


> *Faith schools are a recipe for social disaster*
> 
> *Only mixed education can properly dispel ignorance and fear*
> 
> ...


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## sikhway (Sep 22, 2010)

"When I confessed to not believing in God"
I say Amen to that confession!
The article is as if I, a believer, write  to all of the non-believers about my opinions about benefit of believing.
If you don't beleive in soemthing then your vision is coloured from the beginning.
I imagine this guy was ok for faith schools up until now-when a Sikh school opens.
Article is laughable and not worth discussing.
Article promotes assimilation like 18th century.
Article should also continue on no state funded protection for people who look different- i know the stretch is a bit too much but albeit in the same direction.
Confession about being a non believer is also a fake one. I think he doe sbeleive in 'his' religion and is covering it to cover his bigottery.


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## loverofknowledge (Sep 23, 2010)

Hello. First, I want to apologize for always quoting messages. It seems to be the only way my screenreader will let me type anything. Second, I definitely appreciate that perspective and see how it could be viewed that way. Coming from Islam and living in the U.S., I see how it can seem like a lot of things are stemming from bigotry. Personally, even though I'm not a Sikh as of now, I would want to attend a school like that because the article said it would teach about other faiths and it seems to promote tolerance. I just think we can't jump to intolerance and bigotry without researching the source of an article or anything else. If it turns out that you're right about this author's religious convictions and feelings toward faith schools and Sikhs, then by all means, your point is valid. However, in the case that this is a real atheist with a real opposition to faith-based schools, your point could be seen as somewhat presumptuout and even a bit offensive to some. BTW, on a different note, possibly for another topic (feel free to recommend one) as a blind person very new to studying Sikhism, what exactly do Sikhs look like that is so different? I know they have beards and tourbans, but is there other stuff that they wear/have that sets them apart? Take care. 

I say Amen to that confession!
The article is as if I, a believer, write to all of the non-believers about my opinions about benefit of believing.
If you don't beleive in soemthing then your vision is coloured from the beginning.
I imagine this guy was ok for faith schools up until now-when a Sikh school opens.
Article is laughable and not worth discussing.
Article promotes assimilation like 18th century.
Article should also continue on no state funded protection for people who look different- i know the stretch is a bit too much but albeit in the same direction.
Confession about being a non believer is also a fake one. I think he doe sbeleive in 'his' religion and is covering it to cover his bigottery.[/QUOTE]


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 23, 2010)

The idia of having faith School is a relative with respect to the society we live in.For Minor Communities it may be a requirement as this is basically related to the Identity Aspect of the faith.
We may have to weigh POSITIVE and NEGATIVE aspect of this thought of having faith school. Why the need for such faith school for children? A better option could be that 
initially there could be need of educating the elders,parents in such schools.If elders and parents are educated about the basic and fundamental priinciples of different faiths
they can impart initial basic thoughts at HOME first
There should be curriculum for minimum common priniciples which can benifit the society 
most.This is with reference to a point that the first school of children is thier HOME  where actually parents indent initial concept of particular faith.
In absence of any such guidence from Home when a child grows and come in contact with childeren of other faiths he is confused because he or she does not has his own 
faith to interact and there is great possibilty of being swayed.
Faith is a continuous development process.Faith should be based on capacity to be 
analytiic towards other faiths without disturbing his own faith.
So there should be a minimum age when a child acquired to be analytical before he or she goes to any school of faith
Faith without analytical knowledge leads to RIGIDITY of faith.Someone has rightly saidas
Rilegious Rigidity Looks Beutiful but It has no eyes to see.
Very enlightened views have been presented by various SPNs and all are appreciable.
thanks.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## eropa234 (Sep 23, 2010)

Faith schools may be good for parents who do not have any faith. It is the insecurity of an individual that prompt such thinking that future generations will "loose faith" An individual without insecurities attract positive attention from society and questions about faith.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 23, 2010)

ERAPA234,
I fully agree to your views.By faith I mean a specific knowledge with analytical approach.
I have alreadymentioned the requirement of faith school is relative to the society where we live .
My reference is related to the country where I live and my views are related to my society where I find elders and parents themselves do not have faith with analytical approach.
Where societies ar e already aware of POSITIVE and NEGATIVES of such bfaith school
there your point of view fully stands.
with thanks
Prakash.s.bagga


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## kds1980 (Sep 23, 2010)

eropa234 said:


> Faith schools may be good for parents who do not have any faith. It is the insecurity of an individual that prompt such thinking that future generations will "loose faith" An individual without insecurities attract positive attention from society and questions about faith.



Minorities are always insecure about their future generations.The pressure from the majority in any society is so high that slowly minorities just assimilate in them.


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## eropa234 (Sep 23, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> Minorities are always insecure about their future generations.The pressure from the majority in any society is so high that slowly minorities just assimilate in them.



Then the problem lies with the minorities in the shape of insecurity, its not only based on religion alone but also in race, color, creed and culture and sub culture. Assimilation is always a two way street. When water from one body of meets the water of another body, in minority of majority, the composition of the whole body is changed.

People with insecurities has tendencies to create grottoes and live in their own little cocoons deprive them self of academic education. 

I feel very good that most of the Sikh community has established it self as good peace loving society and have the respect of indigenous communities in general.   

People of wisdom remain people of wisdom regardless of this merger.


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## kds1980 (Sep 23, 2010)

eropa234 said:


> Then the problem lies with the minorities in the shape of insecurity, its not only based on religion alone but also in race, color, creed and culture and sub culture. Assimilation is always a two way street. When water from one body of meets the water of another body, in minority of majority, the composition of the whole body is changed.



No Hinduism in India assimilated Budhists, did anything changed for hindu's?
similarly other small religions that emerged were also swallowed by Hinduism and some by islam.Just look at example of Parsi's they are the one of the most peaceful Religion of India ,but on the other hand they are on the verge of extinction.There is not even  a single explanation that why parsi Religion is 
dieing


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## findingmyway (Sep 23, 2010)

*Teaching Not Preaching In CA Bible Belt*




http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/24/eveningnews/main4206426.shtml

*(CBS) *  Modesto is known as the bible belt  of California. It has deep conservative roots in farmland and a vocal  Evangelical community. 

But increasingly, some less familiar notes are echoing through California's Central Valley, *CBS News correspondent John Blackstone* reports.
Like many other places, Modesto is becoming more religiously diverse. 

But unlike any other place, religion is a required course in high school here.
"We can't preach, but we can teach," teacher Yvonne Taylor said. 

Using "Teach Don't Preach" as her motto, Taylor guides the world religions course at Johansen High.

"And now we're going to be looking at Judaism, Christianity, and Islam," Taylor said to her class.

Most  schools studiously avoid religion. In fact, Modesto is the only public  school district in America where students have to study all major  religions to graduate.

"The United States is one of the most  religious countries on Earth. And yet Americans know almost nothing  about religion," said Stephen Prothero, author of a new book, "Religious Literacy." 

Prothero  believes Modesto should be a model for the country, because America is  paying a price for knowing so little about the world's religions.
"Religious  illiteracy imperils our Democracy at home and it puts to a huge test  our ability to conduct foreign policy overseas," Prothero said. "What's  going on now in Iraq and in Iran and in Burma - these are religious  people acting for religious reasons."

"In Islam, we'll be talking about the five pillars," Taylor said to her class.
But in Modesto, the lessons aren't about distant cultures, so much as about the student at the next desk.

"So the only religion that actually requires the wearing of the turban would be what faith?" Taylor asked her students.

"Sikhs," students answered. 

 Jaskirat  Brar, a devout member of Modesto's Sikh community, may stand out at  Johansen High. But thanks to the world religions course he also fits in.

"Kids get to learn what I am and clear up misconceptions they have about me," he said.

"Because  we have the world religions course, the students are aware of what's  happening in our community and that certainly is something to  celebrate," Taylor said.

"Probably the best thing that I learned  [is] how to respect the cultures and the religions and what they  believe," one student said.

"I was really glad that people are learning who I am and what I'm about," said Doria Hohenlavuth, a Buddhist.

The city's religious leaders have embraced the course.

"This is a very good thing in my opinion," said Ahmad Kayello of the Islamic Center of Modesto. 

At the city's Sikh temple, Ravinder Singh Brar said: "The more we know about each other, the more friendly we are going to be."

While there are many religions here, the goal is to create one community where everyone is accepted.


There is a video if you click on the link above.


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## eropa234 (Sep 23, 2010)

Kanwardeep Singh said:


> No Hinduism in India assimilated Budhists, did anything changed for hindu's?
> similarly other small religions that emerged were also swallowed by Hinduism and some by islam.Just look at example of Parsi's they are the one of the most peaceful Religion of India ,but on the other hand they are on the verge of extinction.There is not even  a single explanation that why parsi Religion is
> dieing



Firstly Parsi is not a religion. In Sanskrit Parsi are the Iranians of pre-Islamic age and most of them followed Zoroastrian religion. When Arabs concurred Iran (Persian Empire) there was a summary executions and enslavement of Zoroastrians. Many Zoroastrians escaped to India and other parts of the world. There are still some left in Iran and are subject to hate and discrimination. Iranians have completely dissociated themselves from their Zoroastrian Past.

Even though Hinduism is not part of my religion it is still part of my culture I still take pride in the history of my people that goes back ten thousand years in recorded history. 

For your knowledge the converted Zoroastrians brought culture and science to Islam hence making minute changes in Islam. Soofi brand of Islam has a big contribution from Zoroastrians. Even though most of the Soofis are considered as heretics by Sunnis and Shiite sects of Islam. 

A religion has to stand on its own merits as well. Guru Nanak Ji only had a very small number of HINDU disciples. It was the power of his words and actions that changed people's lives and thinking.  

In order to answer your first question I ask you this question. What did assimilation do for the Buddhists?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 23, 2010)

EROPA234
It is good idia that assimilation is a two way street.It is equally important to understand the concept of identity among miniorties.Why indentity is so impotant for community like 
Sikhs.?There was need for such an identity and it is this identity a Sikh is A Sikh.
If in the process of assimilation if there is risk of loss of identity this would be dangerous for miniority community.Therefore miniority comunity should be strong enough to save its identity in the process of assimilation.We must understand that identity is related to the fundamental concept  of faith of particular comunity.It is this fundamental concept of faith which is required to be maintained.
That is why it is very subjective to think about having faith schools or not.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## sikhway (Sep 24, 2010)

Well those are part of 5 K's-
Kesh-hair
kara-iron bracelet
kirpan-sword
kangha=comb
kachehra=decent lower body covering

To cover hair we have turban.
All of these things have deep theology behind it.


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## kds1980 (Sep 24, 2010)

> Firstly Parsi is not a religion. In Sanskrit Parsi are the Iranians of  pre-Islamic age and most of them followed Zoroastrian religion. When  Arabs concurred Iran (Persian Empire) there was a summary executions and  enslavement of Zoroastrians. Many Zoroastrians escaped to India and  other parts of the world. There are still some left in Iran and are  subject to hate and discrimination. Iranians have completely dissociated  themselves from their Zoroastrian Past.
> 
> Even though Hinduism is not part of my religion it is still part of my  culture I still take pride in the history of my people that goes back  ten thousand years in recorded history.
> 
> For your knowledge the converted Zoroastrians brought culture and  science to Islam hence making minute changes in Islam. Soofi brand of  Islam has a big contribution from Zoroastrians. Even though most of the  Soofis are considered as heretics by Sunnis and Shiite sects of Islam.



I know the name of Religion is Zorastion and Parsi is Indian name of their religion,but the fact is despite being a beautiful Religion ,the zorastions  are on the verge of extinction.
As you are saying they bought culture and science to islam but were they able to change the mentality of islam of attacking destroying and converting people.?
Now let me give you an example if tommorow large number of sikhs will become hinduised
in India then also surely they will keep on singing/hearing kirtan ,so there may be little change but the fact will remain that Sikhism will lost forever



> n order to answer your first question I ask you this question. What did assimilation do for the Buddhists?



I don't get your question? The fact is budhism died in India.Some of its very good points like no caste system also died with it


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## findingmyway (Sep 24, 2010)

sikhway said:


> Well those are part of 5 K's-
> Kesh-hair
> kara-iron bracelet
> kirpan-sword
> ...




External symbols are not enough when we are following Hindu rituals and festivals instead of embracing our own unique philosophy. Maybe we need to have better weekend schools in Gurdwara? I don't think enough is done for children or adults to understand Gurmat, instead Gurdwara'a have become about worship when they should be centres of learning.


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## dalbirk (Sep 24, 2010)

eropa234 said:


> Firstly Parsi is not a religion. In Sanskrit Parsi are the Iranians of pre-Islamic age and most of them followed Zoroastrian religion. When Arabs concurred Iran (Persian Empire) there was a summary executions and enslavement of Zoroastrians. Many Zoroastrians escaped to India and other parts of the world. There are still some left in Iran and are subject to hate and discrimination. Iranians have completely dissociated themselves from their Zoroastrian Past.
> 
> Even though Hinduism is not part of my religion it is still part of my culture I still take pride in the history of my people that goes back ten thousand years in recorded history.
> 
> ...



Firstly I like you to kindly DEFINE the word Hinduism . Secondly Hinduism ( Sanatan Dharma / Brahminism ) is just 3500 years old not tens of thousands years , it starts with the arrival of Aryans from Persia ( Iran ) in about 1500 BC . The first book created by them was Rigveda which was transmitted orally until it was wriiten formally by Ved Vyasa who also wrote Mahabharata . What is the contribution of Brahminism to India , it just institutionalised the Varna system which caused untold misery in the form of slavery to Muslims for 800 years in which 80 million Indians were killed & 10 million girls , women & boys were sold in Kabul , Ghazni , Kandhar , Bahgdaad for as little as 25 paise each . This is the most inhuman ideology after Islam ( of course ) which institutionalises discrimination on the baisis of birth . Also most hilarious including false , mythological fairy tales which have no head or tail . Even today most of problems faced by India are due to the ill-effects of Brahminism . IMHO Buddhism , Jainism & above all Sikhism are the only three TRUE DHARMAS rest are merely expansionist ideologies like Christianity , Islam or eternally discriminating like Brahminism . If anybody wishes to have real NIRVANA he must go for either of the three ideologies namely Buddhism , Jainism , Sikhism . As Jainism & Buddhism have been all but assimilated in Brahminism , Sikhism is the only way for living emancipation for all the poor , downtrodden & Dalits of India .


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## Serjinder Singh (Sep 24, 2010)

I studied in India in a Khalsa High School and in a Khalsa College. However, my middle school was a government school. Although there were religious education teachers in Khalsa school and college teaching in what were called divinity classes I did not learn much about Sikhism there. We were just asked to memorise the names of ten gurus, five banis and few other such things that coming from a deeply religious family I already knew. However, in the Khalsa College one thing that I inadvertently learned was to hate non-Sikhs (I thank Waheguru to be able to have soon overcome this). Whenever there used to be a hockey match between our college team and a local DAV College we would go in large numbers not so much to back up our team but to shout derogatory chants against the DAV College players. We would chant (during fifties) "Dhoti, topee, bodee karo Yamuna to paar" (send those wearing a Dhoti, wearing a cap, and a religious tuft of hair across river Yamuna). And DAV students would retort in reply, "Kainchee, Ustra karo tyaar (get the razor and scissors ready)

On the other hand, during my Govenrment Middle School I had a very gentle and loving Hindu teacher teaching Hindi and Sanskrit. I now appreciate knowledge of these two language that help me tremendously to understand Gurbani, particularly Dasam Granth almost all of which in Braj, a dialect of Hindi ( The Punajbi is not the dominant language of Gurbani - Hindi content keeps rising as we move from first Guruji to tenth). I do not imagine a Sikh school in the west realising our misplaced notion that Gurbani language is Punjabi and hence proclaiming that it would teach pupils Punjabi (and not other Gurbani languages)

The experience and advantage of having learned non-mother tongue languages persuaded me to learn other languages such as Farsi and Arabic later when in University. This not only helped me to be able to communicate with Middle Eastern and Iranian persons but also be able to understand Zafarnama and Bhai Nand Lal's writings. Of course, I can understand the Quran as well. 

I do not envisage any Khalsa School in the West would be courageous enough to break out of the typical Sikh tight-jacket to help children explore the beauty of entire diversity of His creation. 

Rangi Rangi Bhati Kar Kar Jinsi Maya Jin Upaee (Japuji Sahib)

Humbly
Serjinder Singh


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## spnadmin (Sep 24, 2010)

Serjinder ji

Thank you for the fallacy about the dominance of Punjabi in Sikh scripture and other important historical texts.


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## Balkar Singh (Sep 24, 2010)

Things are not bad if organized properly.

Faith schools are a very good idea, but it is obserevd that the SIKH faith school does not employ a seperate qualified divinity-teacher . Either a local Granthy is hired for the ceremonies or one of the teachers do the time-pass. 
I am impressed by the Akal Academy organization but they also lack the same . They believe that a music teacher is enough or the Granthy baba will do.
Art of teaching divinity also needs some qualification . It should not be taken lightly. Our children and youth are fed up with the traditional 'fairy tales'. 
I believe that faith schools are here and they will prevail.Come, shed up the way of criticizm and doubts. Gurubani says that Sikhism is a GADI-RAH (TRUNK ROAD) . Why do we not speed-up ? We expect name and fame even in sewa. Satguru save THE FAITH.
Bhul chuk muaf krni ji. Guru Fateh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Sep 25, 2010)

Considering, two aspect of the faith one idiology and other theology,there should be a balance between the two.Theology should not be allowed to Dominate Idiology.Theology  should be a matter of convinience to suit the current generation without disturbing certain minimum norms of theology.
This balancing can provide stability to the faith for times to come.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## bsc1 (Jun 13, 2011)

WKWF.
My daughters are students at The Guru Nanak Sikh School West London Hayes.
I have lived in Southall all my life ,it's a _"socially,culturally,regligious diverse melting pot."_....in other words it's becoming a ghetto !
When I was a student at the local schools back in the late 70's and 80's we used to attend morning assembly and christmas/easter were the only national holiday's ,it was a *very Christian* affair in the UK at that time.My fellow students were from Sikh/Hindu/Muslim/Christain,Asian/Black/White backgrounds and we all grew up unaffected by the *"school Christains." All have maintained their own belief system that they were born into.*
This prove's that it's NOT only what is taught in school BUT also what is taught at home.
Do I like the idea of faith school's ?....a very firm *NO*.....so why do I send my daughters to a Sikh Faith School ?....because its a very good school for academia.
The school has Christain white teachers,Muslim teachers black/asian ,Sikh teachers and most *importantly* the 20% non Sikh rule is taken up by *Muslim *students and *Christain* students.*This proves other beliefs trust the Sikh rule of non indoctrination.*
If I had my way I would keep religion out of schools because it's an unstable mix.Good example is Catholic schools,they find it very hard to teach natural selection_(science)_ and creationism_(religion)_ in the same school.
Most schools in London have been serving Halal approved meals (both veggie/non veggie options) but none of the non Muslim parents were informed of this fact.If religion had been kept out of the schools this would have never happened.
Keep religion for after school _(monitored by person outside of belief eg a Sikh should_ _monitor a Muslim or Christain afterschool class,this will prevent radical loony teaching's) _classes and the home enviroment.


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## Serjinder Singh (Jun 13, 2011)

BSC1
Sat Sri Akal

I remember early seventies when south asian school children in Southall were being bussed to distant schools. However, the situation has now totally changed with a sikh school although I wouldn't approve of repeating this in other parts of UK just for the sake of doing so for sectarian considerations.

There is no harm in sending one's children to a 'faith school' if the academic standards are better than those of non-faith schools in the area and the 'faith' of the faith school is not imposed on the pupils deliberately or inadvertently. I sent my children to a catholic school in India because that was the best one in the city established nearly 80 years ago. The pupils were 95% from non-faith background and there was no compulsion to attend assembly or other christian events. 

However, I am of the firm opinion that religion should be taught not in a school but in a religious place or at home. A school should focus on imparting academic knowledge in a scientific manner, that includes religious education about all faith and belief systems in an objective manner in order to develop critical appreciation of the system in question. 

Remember Guru ji sent prominent sikhs like Bhai Gurdas to Hindu places of learning such as Benaras to learn about Hindu religion. However, if the aim of setting up a faith school is to attempt to convert or to inculcate a sense of chauvinistic superiority over other faiths then faith school may become a place for breeding extremism and sectarian hatred as happens in Scotland in UK where the top agenda of the recentlly elected Scottish National Party is to curb the scourge of sectarianism in Scotland particularly in Scottish footbal.

Humbly
Serjinder Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jun 13, 2011)

It is equally important that we have preachers and scholars with proper and indepth knowledge of Gurbaani.Ifind most of our prechers and scholars are unable to give satisfactory answer of many of Gurbaani messages and their interpretation is just more confusing.
So we should look at the qualities and the level of knowledge they can impart to our coming generation.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## findingmyway (Jun 15, 2011)

I feel that ALL schools should teach the basics of ALL religions to ALL children in order to avoid misconceptions, stereotyping and conflict. This is the best way to promote harmony among different people imho


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