# Mool-Mantar



## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 3, 2009)

Veer jio Gur fateh!!
Please shed some light upon the full mool-mantar because at some places it is recited upto "Gur parsaad." and at some places upto  "Naanak hosi bhi sach."
 What does mean the 'Mangalacharan' and where is it used?
There are many scholars on this forum so please educate us.
Thanks.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


----------



## spnadmin (Jun 3, 2009)

Veer ji, Two good questions.

Forum member Soul_jyot ji is the best one to explain the two ways of reciting the mool-mantar. 

On the second question - if I am not mistaken, there are a few discussions about that already here at SPN. I will search and give you the links for starters.

Does this look to you as if we need two threads rather than one so the discussion does not overlap and become confusing? 

Thanks.


----------



## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 3, 2009)

Thanks veerji, for taking the subject seriously by eeing it's importance. So far i have joined SPN, i am not aware of any such thread. In case if it has been discussed here, please answer my question in brief otherwise let it be open to discuss.
Thanks.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


----------



## Tejwant Singh (Jun 3, 2009)

Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> Veer jio Gur fateh!!
> Please shed some light upon the full mool-mantar because at some places it is recited upto "Gur parsaad." and at some places upto "Naanak hosi bhi sach."
> What does mean the 'Mangalacharan' and where is it used?
> There are many scholars on this forum so please educate us.
> ...


 
Well, first and foremost every participant in this forum is a Seeker, a Learner, a Student, a Sikh in that form irrespective of her/his hue, creed of faith.

From your previous interesting posts one can assume you have a great knowledge about Gurbani.

So I would like you to shed some light on your own question from your Gurmat perspective and share with us. I am sure your insights will help us learn a lot from you about the subject.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


----------



## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 3, 2009)

I don't understand the means of Manglaacharan, so i asked. I was told by someone scholar that the Mool Mantar chanted upto 'Gur parsaad' is mangalaacharan and if chanted full upto "Naanak hosi bhi sach" shall be called Mool Mantar. This full Mool-Mantar upto "Naanak hosi bhi sach" is chanted once only in Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but many times upto ,'Gur parsaad.' So to clear doubts, i asked you through this forum.
Thanks.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa


----------



## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 3, 2009)

Veer Tejwant Singh ji. I have just posted to clear my doubts. Your kind help is solicited in this regard. I have humbly asked to clear doubts and confusion. Thanks.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


----------



## spnadmin (Jun 3, 2009)

Ajmer ji

OK -- You are talking about 

  <> siqgur pRswid  
   ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh ||  
 _  One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: 
_


_Nihang Sukha Singh Akaali ji explains it this way -- An appeal to the One Creative Supportive Nourishing   Destructive Being, who is the Sat, always true, and who is found through the Grace of Guruji._


----------



## spnadmin (Jun 3, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> I don't understand the means of Manglaacharan, so i asked. I was told by someone scholar that the Mool Mantar chanted upto 'Gur parsaad' is mangalaacharan and if chanted full upto "Naanak hosi bhi sach" shall be called Mool Mantar. This full Mool-Mantar upto "Naanak hosi bhi sach" is chanted once only in Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but many times upto ,'Gur parsaad.' So to clear doubts, i asked you through this forum.
> Thanks.
> Ajmer Singh Randhawa



On your earlier point, it is discussed at this link http://www.khalsanet.org/sikhs/inde...57&func=fileinfo&parent=category&filecatid=10http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...+mantar+controversy&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=


----------



## AdsKhalsa (Jun 3, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh..........

As far I know and IMHO...Mool Mantar is Up to "Gurprasad".. because after that JAP starts...it doesn't mean to recite...but It means JAP baani Starts...Like Rehraas, Jaap, Sukmani, Anand are baani's... We added Ji and Sahib to JAP baani... as a respect...and we added Sahib as respect to all baani's...

now ..let me say something to support it...(these are given as support to me).... 

Many times in Sri Guru Granth Sahib... Whole Mool Mantar is written ..and that is up to "Gurparsad" (sorry I don't remember the count)...

and many times Guru Ji had cut short it to "EK OngKaar Gurparsad"...or "Ek Ongkaar Satnam Gurparsad".... like we recite first 5 Pauri's and 40th Pauri of Anand baani (Anand Sahib- with respect)

You will  find "AAD SACH...JUGAD SACH...HAI BHI SACH..NANAK HOSI BHI SACH" in Sukhmani baani (Sukhmani Sahib) ...its same like "AAD GUREY NAMAH...JUGAD GUREY NAMAH..SATGUREY NAMAH..SRI GURDEVEY NAMAH" in Sukhmani Sahib..while starting Sukhmani Baani...

This is compliation of what I heard in Gyani Amreek Singh Ji's katha broadcasted from Gurdwara Dukh Niwaran Sahib, Ludhiana, Khalistan....last month... and a talk with Raagi of Gurdwara from Bradrock road, farifax, Virginia. 

Now what I practice....., I believe in reciting more baani...so I recite upto "Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach"...like I recite Long Rehraas ...Long Chaupi Sahib..sometimes full Anand Sahib while doing Rehraas (Sahib)... its just what I think to made a habit of reciting more baani...but if I will be doing in Gurdwara.. I will do as per SGPC.short Rehraas (Sahib)..short Chaupai (Sahib)...6 Pauriyaan of Anand (Sahib) baani...and no Pauri.at last....because I don't want to confuse others with my practice... 

I hope this will help to clear you doubt...Actually Mool Mantar is up to Gurparsad...and we have practice that if we are doing it in Sangat...because that's what is true.and we are not supposed to divert the Sangat..but individually you are free to recite baani to any extent you want..may be up to full 1st Pauri of Jap (Jap Ji Sahib)...

This is what I learned and what I feel...

Chardi Kala.....


----------



## spnadmin (Jun 3, 2009)

Ads ji

This is an old controversy. Controversy may be too strong a word. Up to _gur prasaad_ is   taken as the Mangala Charan, and the _managla charan _can also take the form _Ik Oankaar Sat Gur Prasaad, _when used as part of the _raag_ structure in _Sri Guru Granth Sahib_. The_ Mool Mantar_ includes every thing up to and including "Nanaka hosi bi sach" according to many authorities. The _Khalsanet_ article with link that I posted gives the history of the "controversy." The act of shortening the Mool Mantar to end with _gurprasaad_ was undertaken by the SGPC in 1932. The source states:

In  Sikh  Dharm  today,  there  are
  essentially  two  main  schools  of
  thought. On the one hand, we have
  the _Sampardahs, _which date back
  to the time of our Gurus; and on the
  other,  there  is  the  Shromani
  Parbandak Gurdwara Committee
  (SPGC),  which  was  established
  relatively recently in the year 1925,
  and has managed to garner a good
  deal of influence over Sikh affairs
  by controling several key religious

  institutions.

The article -- very interesting -- also provides information about the Sampardahs that state that the full _mool mantar _continues to _Nanaka hose bi sach_. Although the_ Khalsanet_ article goes on to say that the SGPC decision amounts to "heresy" IMHO that kind of rhetoric is not necessary.  :roll:​


----------



## AdsKhalsa (Jun 5, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

I got the count...I was listening to Katha broadcasting live from Gurdwara Dukh Niwaran Sahib...and Gyani Amreek Singh Ji- Chandigarh Waale told this in katha..

Moot Mantr in Sri Guru Granth Sahib:

 33 (Sampooran Roop Ch)
  8 (Sanchep roop ch)
  526 (Ekongkaar Satgur Prasad)


couple of days back I was listening to Katha from Gurdwara Dukh Niwaran Sahib, Ludhiana, Punjab. 

Gyani Sarabjeet Singh Ji gave a very good example on this...Only thing matters is Love, a stage of happiness (Anand).... I don't know why Sikhs are fighting for Mool Mantr...Those who understands the basic concept of Sikhism....never thinks so much about this...Once you reach the level of Anand...nothing matters....only Anand matters..one can get that Anand even by saying .."Ek Ong Kaar Satnam "...

if a boy take admission in Kindergarten...there he has been taught that A for Apple...B for Bat....boy has nothing to do with Apple or Bat at that time...its just to make him remember that its A.., B......and if you ask that boy to tell you the ABCD...he will say A for Apple...B for Boy.....have you ever seen a young guy saying in same manner ?....if yes...then even you will say that he is idiot and not yet matured..he is still sitting at entry level.....

Once a student passes from one class....he has to sit in another class ...because he understood the earlier requirements that need to advance...and now can proceed...but if a student will say...no I want to sit in the same class..teacher will not allow him to sit in the same class...Teacher will say you don't have to love the same bench or class room...you have to move ahead...

its the same way...don't get so much superstitious.... once you reach a level...these doesn't matter...We recite Baani to attain the level of Anand...which is from inside.... just listening to the baani...not feeling anything else...you are just feeling baani...........and once that level reaches...its even hard to move the lips...because one thinks that if he even move his lips...this condition might be disturbed...

Chardi Kala.......


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 5, 2009)

Actually all these words are applied by HUMANS..Manglacharan..Mool Mantar..Beej mantar..etc etc.
Since such have existed in HINDU texts and religious culture...we Sikhs thought that we must have them too...so the more sanatanist..brahminised vedantist we are..the more we have of Beej mantrs, Mool Mantars and such.

Manglacharan is a short THANKSGIVING/ARDASS/PRAYER type of composition that Every Kavi/poet/writer of a Granth/book.poem/Vaar etc WILL write to ADDRESS HIS ISHT..His GURU..His GOD..His waheguru..His Creator.... IN English sometimes the word used is PRE-AMBLE...a Beginning...this is used in Plays etc to explain the story/byline/short synopsis..or give back ground information so that everyone can begin understanding the Play...

The EK Oangkar...to Satgur Parsaad ]] has TWO DANDEES...Finality is clear. It is just not one dandee but TWO. 
The TITLE  [[ JAP ]] is also ENCLOSED by TWO DANDEES.
Then the SLOK..AAD SACH..to nank Hosee Bhee SACH ]] again TWO DANDEES.and Number 1]] TWO DANDEES.of TWO SETS. Another NUMBER [[ 1]] appears after the First paurree to hsow that this NUMBER 1 is DIFFERENT and not succeeding the previous number [[1]] otherwisde it would be [[ 2]]!!
GURU JI has BROKEN UP and set clear boundaries as to where each part STOPS. In Normal Sentence a FULL STOP means it STOPS there..and the next is  a new sentence. SAME HERE.

SO NOT only Has GURU JI placed clear STOPS to separate the Parts...Further through out the SGGS the Raags begin with "EK Oangkar..to Satgur Parsaad. ]]
IT CAN BE SHORTER....*BUT NEVER AGAIN IS IT REPEATED UNTIL the Nank hosee bhee SACH PART*...not once !!! Again  a CLEAR  and unmistakeable Message.

3. In the Hnadwritten Birs and in the Kartarpuri Bir which is the AAD Granth...the "EK Oangkar up to gurparsaad]] is ALWAYS at the TOP RIGHT HAND CORNER OF THE RIGHT HAND PAGE.

It was due to a mistake by the PRINTERS that this VITAL POINT about the POSITION of "EK Oangkar to Satgur Parsaad" was LOST in Printed Birs/..and placed RANDOMLY...and resulted in COMICAL SITUATIONS...where the Bani and the raag titles and EK Oangkar gur parsaad gets all mixed up..INSTEAD of being given its RIGHTFUL Place at the TOP Right side.

4. People always retort...WAADH bani parrhnn wich kee nuksaan hai...Whats the damage in reading more bani...NONE..is my answer..BUT then again..there are RULES and Grammar according to whch Gurbani is written..reasons why Guru ji placed TWO DANDEES and numbers and all. And my answer would also be..then WHY STOP at all...contineu till Mundawnni mh 5 and Slok EACH TIME you start reading Gurbani of SGGS...after all wheres the harm in reading more Gurbani ??...

Actually those who just read GURBANI to CHANGE thier lives...NEVER worry or ask such questions...swaal jwaab dovehn kareh mudhon khutthah jayeh..ONCE a person in frull prem begins gurbani paath...he/she wouldnt want to stop....its THAT ADDICTIVE !! and they DO SEE ther lives CHANGING...for the BETTER...while the DHUCHHARS..the question for the sake of question...are never satisfied and keep on asking..and never changing...as they run from pillar to post..from one "sant/Brahmgiani" to another "Gyani/Granthi"..and before you know it..WAHEGURU CALLS..and its all over..Baba BOLTEH THEH KHAAN GAYEH ?? the questioner is SILENCED...
So my beantii...READ GURBANI in order  t o CHANGE YOUR OWN LIFE !!:happy::happy:


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 11, 2011)

AJMER SINGH Ji,

It would be important to verify from SGGS  the status of MOOL MANTRA  By the grace of SATi Guru ji as I understand from Gurbaani that there is no such indication that the very first line along with SYMBOL is to be known as MOOL MANTRA.
About MOOL MANTRA there is a Quote at pp 1040 of SGGS  you may look at this message .  This may help in getting the answer you are looking for.
With best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Mar 11, 2011)

*My article MOOL MANTAR:redturban: is published on Sikhiwiki also,* 
Now let us find out that Guru ji defines the qualities of Lord Akal Purakh in the beginning and then Jaap (Recitation) starts but to our amusement, to whom we have to recite ? Guru ji further explains as AADI SACH JUGAADI SACH !! NANAK HOSI BHI SACH !! MEANS—the divine master, the current of this primeval Truth (God) has continuously been moving since before the beginning and throughout the Ages. He is verily the Truth and will continue to be the Truth for ever. The True Guru has made available (for me) the glimpse of this Truth. 
To know this truth we shall have to observe and then define like this that, ‘ Guru Nanak Dev ji preaches his devotee Sikhs to recite thy true name of lord Akal Purakh Waheguru ji which has continuously present before the beginning of time,  present through the ages and shall be present (true) throughout the ages. He is the only truth and let us define is true qualities as follow:- 
IK-ONKAAR SATINAAM KARTAA PURAKH NIRBHAO NIRVAIR AKAAL MOORAT AJUNI SAI BHN GUR PARSAADI !! JAP !! AADI SACH JUGAADI SACH !! HAI BHI SACH NAANAK HOSI BHI SACH !! 1 !!He is the only one existed himself and created this universe, which is the only truth, which is fearless , away from enmity, close to everyone, timeless, shapeless, omnipresent, unborn, self-existent, away from births and death, self enlightened, ocean and the source of knowledge, which can be known by the grace of the master (Guru) only. So O Man, recite that Akal Purakh and his name which was before the time (periods), he is true from ages, Guru Nanak Dev ji says that he shall always be true in future too.
1)-The Mangala Charan appears in various forms as follows: It has been composed in Sri Guru Granth sahib ji by Guru ji like this——Ik ongkar satnam gurprasad(2 times)
2)– IK ONGKAAR SATNAAM KARTAA PURAKH GUR PARSAAD !! (9 TIMES).
3)- IK ONGKAAR SATNAAM KARTAA PURAKH NIRBHAO NIRVAIR AKAL MOORAT AJUNI SAI BHN GUR PARSAAD !! (33 TIMES)
4)- IK ONGKAAR SATGURU PARSAAD !! (523 TIMES)
"ਸਚ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਵੈ ॥ ਮੂਲ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਸਾਇਣੁ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੫॥ *Ang 1040."   
Here also if you see the definition of this line, it also states that the thy true name is only  madiciens of soul and that true naam is—thy name only of Akal Purakh and his qualities are given from ‘Ik-onkaar to Gur Parsaad’. But futher stressed to recite this true naam only completes the mool mantar upto “Nanak hosi bhi sach.”  The baani of Japuji sahib begins from  here. The first stanza (Pauri) from “Soche soch na howai..” so where are the doubts? 
Thus, if we go through the meanings from “IK-ONKAR... To… Nanak hosi bhi sach!!” 1 !! We find beyond any doubt the completion of Mool Mantar  and this whole Mool Mantar compiled in the beginning of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is recited once only which certifies it’s importance. Whereas different forms of  Managalaachran are seen and applied at various places in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 11, 2011)

AJMER SINGH Ji,
Thank you for your response but this is not the answer to my question.
You may pl refer me any quote from Gurbaani which can indicate that the very first line is to be known as MOOL MANTRA.I require answer in YESor NO.

Dear Ajmer Singh Ji what I understand is that the very first line is Basically a COMPLETE introduction of THE CREATOR and QUALITIES OF THE CREATOR.Certainly its understanding is most important as the whole understanding of Gurbaani is based on Correct understanding of the intisic meanings of this complete introduction of the CREATOR.

I may inform you I am also from DEHRADOON.My schooling is from SGNP inter college DEHRADOON and we are of the same age group too.So I would always feel niceto share my views with you.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Mar 11, 2011)

Glad to meet you, yes i am also from SGNP but as you refuse to accept the beginning lines in SGGS as MOOL MANTAR, it shows that you want to tell the world that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is without MOOL MANTAR. 
You should keep in mind that MOOL MANTAR or basic creed is always given in the beginning only.
Am i right?


----------



## Ambarsaria (Mar 11, 2011)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Glad to meet you, yes i am also from SGNP but as you refuse to accept the beginning lines in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as MOOL MANTAR, it shows that you want to tell the world that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is without MOOL MANTAR.
> You should keep in mind that MOOL MANTAR or basic creed is always given in the beginning only.
> Am i right?


Ajmer singh Randhawa ji and Prakash S. Bagga ji perhaps the following may be of help,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/26802-mool-mantar-as-i-see-it.html#post143495

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Mar 11, 2011)

@Ambarsaria ji;That is the difference where i do not agree, i was a Nirmala sant also in my life and very well aware of Manglacharan and Mool Manatar.
 I have already read this post. It states as---Mool Mantar

One needs to remember that “Mool Mantar” is separate from Gurbani “Japu or Jup”. At the beginning of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji this mool mantar is stated, just like it is also written at the beginning of each raag (musical style of poetry writing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji). Bani starts form the word 'jpu' (Jup). At the beginning of Asa di Vaar the same mool mantar is present but it is not related to “Vaar” Gurbani. At the beginning of 'jpu' (Jup) the mool mantar it is written as (mMglwcrn) happiness and auspicious statement.
I criticize it because the author describes the Mool Mantar is mentioned in the beginning of every baani like Asa di war---that is called the Manglacharan which has been applied 33 times in SGGS and hence it can not be called as a baisc creed (Mool Mantar).
Mool Manatar can be applied once only and that may be verified by any hermits, may be Hindu or Sikh Nirmalaa.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 11, 2011)

AJMER SINGH Ji,

I am only a very small unknown entity in the world so how can I tell the word.
It is only SGGS ji telling the world.
I have simply presented an observation and I may be wrong in my observation.
But if my observation is wrong I need that verification .
I am personally not prepared to agree if the re is no concrete evidence from SGGS .
For me this is utmost concerned.Probably you may disagree with this .

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Mar 11, 2011)

rangesingh:No Parkash singh ji, Please clear your statement whether you deny these lines as Mool Mantar or accept it or some other lines as Mool Mantar? Or you mean to say that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is without Mool Mantar?
Please clear your position.
Please visit my blog in Punjabi  language; http://moolmantardasach.blogspot.com/


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 11, 2011)

AJMER SINGH Ji,

If I can know that SGGS ji tells that the very first line along with SYMBOL is to be known as MOOL MANTRA then I am prepared to accept.
Otherwise my stand is clear.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria (Mar 11, 2011)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> @Ambarsaria ji;That is the difference where i do not agree, i was a Nirmala sant also in my life and very well aware of Manglacharan and Mool Manatar.
> I have already read this post. It states as---Mool Mantar
> 
> One needs to remember that “Mool Mantar” is separate from Gurbani “Japu or Jup”. At the beginning of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji this mool mantar is stated, just like it is also written at the beginning of each raag (musical style of poetry writing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji). Bani starts form the word 'jpu' (Jup). At the beginning of Asa di Vaar the same mool mantar is present but it is not related to “Vaar” Gurbani. At the beginning of 'jpu' (Jup) the mool mantar it is written as (mMglwcrn) happiness and auspicious statement.
> ...


Thanks.

Definitely you are more knowledgeable than me and I learned something in this dialog.
I will watch and listen to two Dehradunians peacesign.  
Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 11, 2011)

AJMER SINGH JI,

There is definitely reference of MOOL MANTRA in SGGS so it is to be accepted but the question is what is that MOOL MANTRA SGGS is telling about,this is to ne known.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria (Mar 11, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AJMER SINGH JI,
> 
> There is definitely reference of MOOL MANTRA in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so it is to be accepted but the question is what is that MOOL MANTRA Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is telling about,this is to ne known.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


Prakash S. Bagga ji can you give me the page number in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji where it is so.  I will like to look and study it.

Thank you.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Mar 11, 2011)

Parkash singh ji; It is called the Mool Mantar but like other many baanis compiled in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it is not given any name but the qualities of creator are defined and the devotees are stressed to recite thy true naam (of whom the qualities are already defined).
After the qualities stated, the sress is given to recite thy naam and then Baani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji begins.
Only that i want to say.
Guru fateh !!
*

Personal email address has been removed. We have had this discussion previously. Do not do this again! *


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 11, 2011)

AMBARSARIA JI,

Sir,You may pl refer a Quote at pp 1040 of SGGS ji regarding the message on 
MOOL MANTRA as

"MOOL MANTRA HARi NAAMu RASAYANu KAHu NANAK POORAA PAAEYA"

You may pl give me your views on this.

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria (Mar 11, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA JI,
> 
> Sir,You may pl refer a Quote at pp 1040 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji regarding the message on
> MOOL MANTRA as
> ...


Prakash S. Bagga ji that line is part of a complete shabad and as such cannot be taken separately.

Professor Sahib Singh has done the exposition so I can not add much to that and accept his "arth" (meaning).

It apppears that this is the only time "ਮੂਲ ਮੰਤਰ੍ੁ" words are used together in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Thanks for the information.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 11, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,

It is threetimes that the words MANTRa and MOOL have been used togetger in Gurbani
First pp156...second pp675     ...and third pp1040.

I may bring to your kind observation that the Quote at pp1940 is from RAAG MAROOand the whole shabad is quite long.There is no RAHAO tuk in the shabad.
So every para of this Shabad is a complete message initself.

There is reference of other MANTRAs like BEEJ MANTRA.......NAAMu MANTRA ....and GUR MANTRA  other than the word MOOL MANTRA.in Gurbaani.
Knowing this shall reveal a lot .

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria (Mar 11, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> 
> It is threetimes that the words MANTRa and MOOL have been used togetger in Gurbani
> First pp156...second pp675     ...and third pp1040.
> ...


Prakash S. Bagga ji I checked all three that you kindly flagged.


pp156...  _reverse order_ from mool mantar (ਮੰਤਰ੍ ਮੂਲ)
second pp675 ...  _reverse order_ from mool mantar (ਮੰਤਰ੍ ਮੂਲ)
and third pp1040 ... (ਮੂਲ ਮੰਤਰ੍ੁ)

From my limited knowledge and study none of the uses in the "Shabad" are  in the context of a "Noun" or a "Name" but an "adjective".  Hence these shabads just  because they have the two words cannot be called "Mool Mantar".

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 11, 2011)

which Banis in SGGS are* Nameless* ?? Please give Panna numbers ? How are they identified in the tatkara ?? or are they listed in the Tatkara at all ??
Thank You.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 11, 2011)

I humbly submit that there is actually no such thing as a "Mantar/Jantar/Tantar/" in Gurmatt Philosophy.
There is NO SUCH THING as...."Mool Mantar...Beej Mantar..whatever Mantar/Jantar/Tantar..............in GURBANI/GURMATT/SGGS. ALL these words are HUMAN CONSTRUCTION. GURMATT has no place for any invocations and mantars as is the NORM in Hinduism.

ON Panna 1040 Guru Ji has so CLEARLY explained that "moolmantar" is HIS  NAAM. And HIS NAAM as we know is the ENTIRE GURBANI...yes the ENTIRE and  COMPLETE 1429 aangs full in SGGS.

The Mantar jantar tantar "concept" was and still IS..widely practised by  the Brahmins ...to "protect..empower..ward off evil eyes, black magic,  engage in bodily penances like tapisayah, to gain vars form devtas, or  curse enemies, to get wishes fulfilled as ability to defy "death" by  whatever means - weapons, day time night time,hands of man woman or  animals etc etc    ( and the VILY BRahmin always has a loophole that  makes the WISH GRANTER absolved from having granted his undefendable  wish to defy death simply becasue whoever is BORN must inevitably  DIE..os there is TRICKERY invoked...as was in Harnaksh's death..and  various others as well who had been granted such death defying wishes  only to be KILLED via  LOOPHOLE which they OVERLOOKED..HA HA ). Even  TODAY just switch on your TV or satellite channel and watch HOW the  Mantars, jantars, tantars get SOLD..to ward off the evil eye..buree  nazar hatao mantar..win court cases mantar, control wife/hisband mantar,  get rich mantar..get a male baby mantar..etc etc etc.... IN GURU NANAK  JIS PERIOD too the BRAHMIN was similarly engaged in LOOTING the unwary  and innocent PUBLIC via his mantars and jantars and Tantars.

GURU NANAK JI SAHIB totally REJECTED all this Mantars-mool/beej/root/jarrh/phal/whatever !!!!....
.
GURU JI DECLARED that the ONE and ONLY "mantar" one needs is *HIS NAAM*....and in Gurbani its clearly explained that  *NAAM is to be PRACTISED*....not  "muttered" and THROWN into the Havan Fire to produce a Magical  WISH...or BLOWN at your ENEMY to smite him down..or tied up in a  tweet-amulet and hung around the neck or tied to the upper arms, or to  influence the judge to rule in your favour..or to make a river of money  flow into your bank balance.
His NAAM..is His GUNNS...His ATTRIBUTES...His ways....and to "Mantrise  His Naam"..means to PRACTISE His gunns, His attributes..His Ways..into  ONES LIFE..so that the daily Life IMPROVES for the BETTER...changes for  the Better..we become calmer, mellowed, loving towards all, sans enmity,  sans jealousy, sans fear of death...see HIM in ALL His CREATION...lose  all sense of DUALITY and follow just HIM..EK !! become travellers on HIS  PATh..follow in HIS WAYS...Mitth Bollrra Ji Har sajaan Mera....Kadeh na  boleh kaurra types...always FORGIVING..all Merciful...dyawaan, kirtwaan  (vehlarr sadhs and sants are NOT like Him at all becasue HE is  continously at WORK in His creation..everything He Created is in  Continous MOTION !!!  Haath paer chaldeh..Maan usdeh naal), Waand  chhakkan walleh, grishtee ghar ghaat walleh - (Dhobee de kutteh waang  aidher udher bhtakan walleh mangteh nahin ).

BUT most unfortunately GURMATT....the Pristine Gurmatt of Guru nanak ji  came under constant attack form the Bippar from day ONE...Udasis,  Nirmalas SAFFRONISED "sikhs" came to control the House of Nanak ( while  the real SIKHS were busy fighting for their survival with their heads  being sold at RS 80 each...the Gurdwaras, the Gurbani etc came under  control of Nirmalas and Udasis )..these saffronised sikhs under heavy  influence of their bippar roots, sought to bring back form the RUBBISH  BIN, Everything that Guru ji had DISCARDED as UTTER RUBBISH. these  people wanted Sikhs to begin slipping back into the PIT of  Brahmanwaad....begin MISUSING "Gurbani" as mantars, Jantars, tantars..to  get wishes..make death defying amulets, stop evil eyes, buree nazars  etc etc and thus were these mantar ideas reborn. NAAM was not to be  "practised"..it was to be "muttered"...and mutterings led to  NUMBERINGS....5 mutters..51 mutters..101 mutters..1001 mutters..125,000  mutters...all having various "Phalls"..fruits....baby boy..so many  mutterings...riches beyond imagination..so many lakh mutterings...and  then as mutterings of merely "moolmantars" werent enough VARIETY...new  holy men/mahapurahs/brahmgyanis..introduced..other  "mantars"..beej..root..jarrh..various TUKS..cut out from complete shbads  were misinterpreted LITERALLY...to incite FEAR..etc and BEND the UNWARY  to their WILL....various shbads were given out for  mutterings/paaths...BUT NO PRACTISING WAS EVER EMPHASISED as that would  have meant UNDERSTANDING...of Gurbani....and thus discouraged.  KNOWLEDGE...is GYAAN...and our GURU JI knew this FACT...thats why He  emphasised GYAAN..UNDERSTANDING..PRACTISE...but then Guru Ji came to  IMPROVE our lives NOT PROFIT form US..or LOOT us...unlike the  "Mahapurashs/brahmgyanis/sants/derawadees/etc etc whose only interests  was their own DERA/GOLUCK/increase in their followers/sewaks !!!

Thus we had the introduction ( I call it REVERSAL into Bipparism) of  WORDS instead of PRACTICAL LIVING....MoolMantars, BeejMnatrs,  manglacharns etc etc where NONE EXISTED before.

2. The SGGS as originally written was in POTHI FORM. EACH RAAG had its  own POTHI. Thats why EACH RAAG has the SAME INVOCATION that appears at  the very beginning. When Guru Arjun Ji sahib BOUND the various raag  Pothis into one BIR/JILD..the previous arrangement of Gurbani as written  remained. That is WHY the EK Oangkaar up to Gurparsaad in FULL is  REPEATED at the BEGINNING of every RAAG "pothi". This was Given Place of  PROMINENCE.

3. Sikhs are known to fall backwards very fast. When GURU NANAK JI saw  the futile small "aartee" being performed by humans..HE took DYA on US  all and invited us to catch hold of his little finger while He took us  UP HIGH into the SKY and SHOW us the MIGHTY AARTEE GOING ON in the  UNIVERSE..SELF SUSTAINED AARTEE continously being performed....and we  "accompanied" GRU JI..up the mountain...saw what He showed us..and  then..slowly slipped BACK to the foot of the mountain..picked up the  small thalees, placed some insignificant ghee deevahs, put  in a few  metal khandas and ek onagkar symbols..and began waving that TINY THAAL  in GURU JIS FACE !!! ..and to add insult to injury..READ OUT LOUD HIS  DESCRIPTION OF THE UNIVERSAL AARTEE being continously performed BY THE  CREATOR HIMSELF ??????...Throwing Broken LIFELESS FLOWERS at SGGS while singing Patee torreh maalni..patii patti JEEO....????? Here Take this..here take this...pattee torreh maalni...!!!!japposatnamwaheguru:


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 11, 2011)

YouTube        - Aarti (Dhanasri Mehala 1) - Bhai Harjinder Singh Ji


----------



## spnadmin (Mar 11, 2011)

Gyani ji

I think you are referring to this in the video above


> 3. Sikhs are known to fall backwards very fast. When GURU NANAK JI saw the futile small "aartee" being performed by humans..HE took DYA on US all and invited us to catch hold of his little finger while He took us UP HIGH into the SKY and SHOW us the MIGHTY AARTEE GOING ON in the UNIVERSE..SELF SUSTAINED AARTEE continously being performed....and we "accompanied" GRU JI..up the mountain...saw what He showed us..and then..slowly slipped BACK to the foot of the mountain..picked up the small thalees, placed some insignificant ghee deevahs, put in a few metal khandas and ek onagkar symbols..and began waving that TINY THAAL in GURU JIS FACE !!! ..and to add insult to injury..READ OUT LOUD HIS DESCRIPTION OF THE UNIVERSAL AARTEE being continously performed BY THE CREATOR HIMSELF ??????...Throwing Broken LIFELESS FLOWERS at Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji while singing Patee torreh maalni..patii patti JEEO....????? Here Take this..here take this...pattee torreh maalni...!!!!


----------



## Ambarsaria (Mar 11, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji I used to believe in the following per your quote below,



> I humbly submit that there is actually *no such thing as a "Mantar/Jantar/Tantar/"* in Gurmatt


It is perhaps of recent that I became sensitive to it.  Mantars remind ("shoo mantar", or translate _Abracadabra_) of magic if I am not mistaken and I think some babey give people "perchian" (small paper pieces folded with words on) and ask people to drink water by dunking the paper in the water for whatever the original purpose was to get magical energy/success/boy baby/, etc.

I will go back to my original beliefs (no mantars) , is there a need to refer to the following with a name or not,



> ੴ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥


I personally don't care for a name as understanding is what counts, but in case it is more proper to give it one based on others wisdom.

Thank you Gyani ji for a wonderful post. I wish it had started the thread versus the original post in this thread. 



> spnadmin ji/Aman Singh ji, can you please push the following by Gyani Jarnail Singh ji to start of this thread if possible
> (http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/25273-mool-mantar-4.html#post143613).



 
Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 11, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,

The combination of the words MANTRA MOOL  is a NOUN by virtue of other words connected to this.Sometime later you may realise this if you really understand how the words are NOUN in certain casesas per Gurbaani grammer.

So according to your present understanding of grammer Gurbani is not telling about as to what is the MOOL MANTRA/MANTRA MOOL.
And "it is called MOOL MANTRA" should be accepted.This way any oneis free to accept 
anything.Certaily this is impossible for me to accept any thing which is to be called without any evidence from SGGS .

Prakash.S.Bagga


----------



## Ambarsaria (Mar 11, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> 
> The combination of the words MANTRA MOOL  is a NOUN by virtue of other words connected to this.Sometime later you may realise this if you really understand how the words are NOUN in certain casesas per Gurbaani grammer.
> 
> ...


Prakash S. Bagga ji I understand the line very well.

*Greater than acceptance is understanding** for me.*

As long as one understands, acceptance goes without saying.

For me it is like "pani rirkan wali gal" (skimming water to get butter) and I don't want to say much more.  I fully understand per Gyani Jarnail Singh ji's input and Professor Sahib Singh ji's Darpan translation help.

With this one done for me, I will be focusing on other topics.

Regards

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 11, 2011)

GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH JI ,

You have made the matter absolutely clear regarding any concept of Mantras in
Sikh Philosophy.I greatly appreciate thecontents of your post.
We should try to get an answer to our any question from within SGGS then our thinking would be nearly Gurmati

with regards

Prakash.s.Bagga


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 12, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> Gyani ji
> 
> I think you are referring to this in the video above



YES JI..apologies as I inadvertantly left out the explanation note as you have so nicely added. Thanks.


----------

