# In 300 Years, Will A Sikh Wear A Kirpan Or A Lightsaber?



## Scarlet Pimpernel

Dear Spn-Sangat 
Recently my Amritdhari brother in law was robbed in Texas by an armed man.He wears a Sri Sahib but when the gun was pointed directly in his face he decided being a family man that it was better to give the gunman what he wanted which was money in this case.This got me thinking ,with around three hundred years having passed since the Khalsa started wearing kirpan's ,will we never change this for another side arm. The kirpan was the sidearm of choice when my Guru walked this earth, but in another 300 years a body armour may be available which steel cannot penetrate or lightsabers and laser guns may become the norm of the day.The question is will we still wear our kirpan even if it no longer a viable sidearm or as protective to others? Sangat is my advisor so I humbly ask this question of you.


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## spnadmin

*Re: In 300 years will a Sikh still wear a Kirpan or a lightsaber?*

sinner ji



> Recently my Amritdhari brother in law was robbed in Texas by an armed man.He wears a Sri Sahib but when the gun was pointed directly in his face he decided being a family man that it was better to give the gunman what he wanted which was money in this case.



He did the prudent thing. This is what all law enforcement tell you to do. There are times for heroism. This is not one.



> This got me thinking ,with around three hundred years having passed since the Khalsa started wearing kirpan's ,will we never change this for another side arm. The kirpan was the sidearm of choice when my Guru walked this earth, but in another 300 years a body armour may be available which steel cannot penetrate or lightsabers and laser guns may become the norm of the day.



After 1699, the kirpan was more than a side-arm. Today it means more than a weapon.

And we all have to be careful according to the laws for carrying a weapon concealed on in the open. If this terrible crime had happened in Arizona, not Texas, your dear one woud have been empowered to wear a knife in the open right on his belt. In fact required, because in that state carrying concealed is forbidden. Often that serves as a deterrent. The hold up might have never occurred. In another state it would be illegal. I am guessing that light sabers will in the future be covered by the same kinds of legal regulation. Or not allowed at all as the forces of power are doing their best to keep tight clamps on all of us.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

Dear Admin Ji

I maybe looking for utility because I feel our Guru primarily would provide us with useful articles.I agree my brother in law thankfully did the right thing, but I suspect he may have bought a gun since the incident.


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## spnadmin

I understand. I actually know someone who converted to Sikhism because it was the only religion that he felt supported the "right to bear arms" 2nd amendment to the US constitution. He devoted most of his energy in sangat, when I knew him, to convincing the men they should start self defense groups. It seems he was frequently accosted because of his turban... actually a rarity in this neck of the woods. So no one really took him seriously but love him nonetheless. _A lovable kook, but  our kook._

The situation in days to come will do less to support and more to suppress any bearing of "lightsabres." And most other weapons. Except in a few states such as Arizona and Georgia where weaponry is expected. Then the prob is the prudent Gursikh is going to be hard to distinguish from a crazed, minority hating yahoo. Ergo......dastar and kesh are even more essential


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## Arvind

IMHO, the five Ks will stay as it is. In the coming years or centuries, there will be people who will be able to understand the real purpose and divinity of the 5Ks, and not just look at these superficially.

Warm Regards.


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## Archived_Member16

*Kirpan(Sword) in Sikhism - A Symbol of Benevolence and Dignity*
by: Dr. Sawraj Singh, MD, FICS 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Kirpan, which can be literally translated into sword, has a much deeper meaning in the Sikh religion. It consists of two words, Kirpa and Aan. The word Kirpa means benevolence and the word Aan means dignity. Therefore Kirpan is a symbol of benevolence and dignity. 

Guru Gobind Singh made Kirpan as an integral part of the 5 k’s. The Kesh, meaning hair symbolizes devotion, asceticism, and renunciation. The hair is associated with spirituality in many other religions. But Guru Gobind Singh made Kangha (comb) also one of the five k’s, which symbolizes order and organization as well as purity and cleanliness. Karha the iron bangle around the wrist is the symbol of universality. Kachara the underwear is the symbol of piousness and sexual purity. 

It is Kirpan, which imparts uniqueness to the Sikh religion. Guru Gobind Singh in the worship of Kirpanicalls it a symbol of justice, equality and struggle against oppression and discrimination and exploitation. The Guru Hails Kirpan as the liberator and sustainer of mankind and the destroyer of the oppressors and the exploiters. He also sees Kirpan as a symbol of bravery and knowledge because it can dispel cowardice and ignorance. He sees celestial beauty in the shining Kirpan. 

The Guru asks us to worship Kirpan as one of the aspects of God. As opposed to the Judeo Semitic concept of creation, which considers the creation as a separate act of God that created the universe in 6 days, from Monday to Saturday and then rested on Sunday, the Sikh religion sees the creation as an uninterrupted and constant act. The Sikh religion believes that the creation has 3 aspects symbolized by Barhama, Vishnu and Mahesh (Shiva). Barhama symbolizes creation, Vishnu symbols sustenance and Shiva symbolizes destruction.
 Destruction is an integral part of construction because without destroying the worn out old, room cannot be created for the emerging new. 

The outlook and attitude of the Sikh religion to Kirpan is fundamentally different than the others who generally view sword as a symbol of power and domination. The sword can generate and encourage arrogance. Arrogance always leads to ignorance.Kirpan constantly reminds the Sikhs of the power of the Almighty. Therefore Kirpan should promote humility. As arrogance and ignorance like each other’s company similarly humility and knowledge go together. 

It is very important in the contemporary world that we use our power as Kirpan and not as a sword. Whereas Kirpan was used by Guru Gobind Singh to liberate the oppressed people, the sword of the colonialists was used to enslave the other people and nations. 

The judicious use of force can help us to change the outdated old world order, which has outlived its usefulness and has become redundant and irrelevant. 

The only way peace and harmony can be kept in the world and prosperity maintained is by upholding principals of equality, fairness, justice, benevolence and showing respect for other peoples beliefs and values. 

We can only suppress others temporarily until they are strong enough to fight against the oppressor. On the other hand benevolence, compassion, universal concern and universal well-being are principles which can lead to a lasting peace and progress. This is the global perspective of Guru Nanak. What we should understand is that Guru Gobind Singh raised Kirpan not only to uphold the principles of Guru Nanak but also to give a practical shape to those principles. 
_
Dr. Sawraj Singh is Chairman of Washington State Network for Human Rights, and Chairman of Central Washington Coalition for Social Justice._ 

*source:* http://www.indolink.com/printArticleS.php?id=022405023333


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

Thankyou for the responses, perhaps I watched too many Star Wars films but I felt the kirpan had a practical purpose as a secondary sidearm for a saint-soldier, I realise it has become an article of faith and has a symbolic dimension.Perhaps the ability to use it for self defence or to defend anyone else for that matter will not be a factor in the future.Maybe a Lightsaber is a kirpan of the future.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sabres...can be seen in History even as far back as 3000 years..The Romans had sabres..the Vikings had sabres..the Crusaders ahd sabres..King Arthur and his knights had sabres....Alexander carried one.Maharaja Ranjit Singh had one....Queen Elizabeth carries one TODAY !!..and KING HARRY will also carry the same Royal Sword...in decades to come...and those who come after him...will too...
Modern Armies still have BAYONETS attached..and all Commandos mandatory carry a KNIFE for close combat !!! The Most Modersn Armies still carry knives..are they ok ?? Shouldnt they have discarded swords and knives long ago..esp with nuclear missilses and grenades and missile launchers carried on shoulders ??
Fact is some things NEVER go out !! KIRPAN is  " IN"....as long as the KHALSA IS....no matter how many "amrtidharees" and Non-sikhs get MUGGED by armed robbers...carrying GUNS...reminds me of the Scene in a Hollywood movie where the villian rushes at the hero waving a large sword..and almost at the Last Minute..the hero whips out his GUN..and shoots the villan dead....I heard everyone in the cinema laugh out LOUD..LOL...its very PRUDENT of thsi amritdharee to have kept his cool...as every AMRITDHAREE SHOULD at all times....the "kirpan" is NOT a 007 License to KILL !!


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

Arvind Ji 
I disagree if the 5K's are divine, is that not a superficial way of thinking? 
(su·per·fi·cial (s p r-f sh l). adj. 1. Of, affecting, or being on or near the surface).The Guru's word is divine and he taught us to act and for that we need the best sabre or sword that is available at a point in time, surely the metal has changed in a kirpan over the past centuries.Sikhism is a very practical religion and everything the Guru gave had a real usefulness ,for example the kanga is used everyday in a practical way.Symbolism was not the primary reason the soldiers carried arms, so practical use I think was the Guru Ji's intention. 
Gyani Ji,True, I guess a sabre is a type a sword, I realise it is not a licence to kill ,against a gun it is probably a licence to be killed!lol


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## Ambarsaria

Sinner said:


> Arvind Ji
> I disagree if the 5K's are divine, is that not superficial way of thinking? (su·per·fi·cial (s p r-f sh l). adj. 1. Of, affecting, or being on or near the surface).The Guru's word is divine and he taught us to act and for that we need the best sabre or sword that is available at a point in time, surely the metal in a kirpan over the past centuries.Sikhism is a very practical religion and everything the Guru gave had a real usefulness ,for example the kanga is used everyday in a practical way.Symbolism was not the primary reason the soldiers carried arms, so practical use I think was the Guru Ji's intention.
> Gyani Ji,True, I guess a sabre is a type a sword, I realise it is not a licence to kill ,against a gun it is probably a licence to be killed!lol


Sikhs can and will carry lot of other stuff too as the times change.  Whether this will be a replacement for Kirpan or a Kirpan with hidden electronics or other ammunition, only time will tell.  Some nice pictures,










Sat Sri Akal.


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## OSingh

It must be stressed that kirpan cannot be 'replaced' for Amritdhari (Baptised) Sikh. Kirpan is a kakar and must never leave the body as per instructions from Panj Piare. Sure one can also carry and utilise different weapons it is well known that Guru Gobind Singh used a rifle which is still with us today.

Due to 'modernity' Sikhs are questioning traditions. Nowadays, many Gursikhs choose to wear Kirpan underneath even at Gurdwara Sahibs which never makes sense. It is getting tougher by the day to wear Kirpan in public, due to lack of awareness and misconceptions on Kirpan. I can envisage a day when Kirpan could be banned in some countries.

However, Kirpan is not only a weapon but has spiritual significance. It is used to prepare Panchamrit Karah Parshad and prepare Amrit in Amrit Sanchar. Therefore Kirpan cannot be replaced it is not only a weapon same goes for Kara, Keski, Kachera and Kangha. Guru Maharaj gave these gifts to us, we should cherish them.

"The question is will we still wear our kirpan even if it no longer a viable sidearm or as protective to others? Sangat is my advisor so I humbly ask this question of you."

Yes. Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh ji will always wear kirpan. However this does not mean that we cannot use other weapons. 

The more bani we read the more shardha (trust) and piar (love) we develop with our the Guru. Once we understand the greatness of Guru Granth Sahib we accept hukams of Guru Sahib such as wearing kirpan. Gursikhs dont look at Kirpan as some worldy object, it is a Gift from Guru Sahib.


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## Ambarsaria

OSingh said:


> It must be stressed that kirpan cannot be 'replaced' for Amritdhari (Baptised) Sikh. Kirpan is a kakar and must never leave the body as per instructions from Panj Piare. Sure one can also carry and utilise different weapons it is well known that Guru Gobind Singh used a rifle which is still with us today.
> 
> However, Kirpan is not only a weapon but has spiritual significance. It is used to prepare Panchamrit Karah Parshad and prepare Amrit in Amrit Sanchar. Therefore Kirpan cannot be replaced it is not only a weapon same goes for Kara, Keski, Kachera and Kangha. Guru Maharaj gave these gifts to us, we should cherish them.
> 
> "The question is will we still wear our kirpan even if it no longer a viable sidearm or as protective to others? Sangat is my advisor so I humbly ask this question of you."
> 
> Yes. Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh ji will always wear kirpan. However this does not mean that we cannot use other weapons.
> 
> The more bani we read the more shardha (trust) and piar (love) we develop with our the Guru. Once we understand the greatness of Guru Granth Sahib we accept hukams of Guru Sahib such as wearing kirpan. Gursikhs dont look at Kirpan as some worldy object, it is a Gift from Guru Sahib.


Osingh ji let us think outside the box.  Say the sheath of the Kirpan can be  embedded with a miniaturized future weapon as legally allowed, that should do both purposes.  May be the Kirpan handle can be embedded with a defensive electronic/futuristic effective, weapon, that will do it too.

So the future will be keep a modernized kirpan/holster-sheath.  When electronics fails, you still have a basic stuff.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## OSingh

Ambarsaria jeeo

Its important to leave Kirpan as it is. It should be made of Sarbloh.
I have no objection for Singh or Singhni carrying any other sort of weapon.
We should not modify/change the kakars.

Here in UK carrying a knife is a major offence let alone a gun. Most countries seem to be banning the carrying of weapons. Even the USA which even has written in constitution that one has right to bear arms, they are trying to get laws to ban guns.

Even our own community seems to be turning against the Kirpan, the new generation are saying we are not in any wars why should we wear Kirpans. 

Sikhs will come under increasing pressure from Governments in regards to Kirpan. Lets focus on keeping the right to wear Kirpan. I dont think governments will allow Sikhs or non-Sikhs to carry weapons outside of Religion.

Rabb Rakhe


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## Ambarsaria

OSingh said:


> Ambarsaria jeeo
> 
> Its important to leave Kirpan as it is. It should be made of Sarbloh.
> I have no objection for Singh or Singhni carrying any other sort of weapon.
> We should not modify/change the kakars.
> 
> Here in UK carrying a knife is a major offence let alone a gun. Most countries seem to be banning the carrying of weapons. Even the USA which even has written in constitution that one has right to bear arms, they are trying to get laws to ban guns.
> 
> Even our own community seems to be turning against the Kirpan, the new generation are saying we are not in any wars why should we wear Kirpans.
> 
> Sikhs will come under increasing pressure from Governments in regards to Kirpan. Lets focus on keeping the right to wear Kirpan. I dont think governments will allow Sikhs or non-Sikhs to carry weapons outside of Religion.
> 
> Rabb Rakhe


Osingh ji the question of the thread is 300 years from now!  How about the sheath!  What is tha supposed to be made of?  How about the gatra, what is tha made of!  Sikhi gives you the tools to adapt not to get stuck on.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

Veera the truth is you can write pages about the spirtual significance but the world will see it simply as a dagger and they will call it that.If it looks like a dagger, feels like a dagger, it's a dagger!I think when we were given it centuries ago ,the Guru saw it simply as a dagger,there was no lecture given on the origin of the word kirpan or anything else! A primary need had to be addressed for living and to survive, we had to have some sort of defence at that time.The sword was for wars and later seems to be have shortened ,if it was divine as Arvind Ji stated perhaps it's divinity was shortened!remember this was centuries ago and before the rule of law and before a proper police force existed.Needs must alls fair in love and war.In peace time I think the Guru may have even decided to relax the requirement.


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## Ambarsaria

Sinner said:


> Veera the truth is you can write pages about the spirtual significance but the world will see it simply as a dagger and they will call it that.If it looks like a dagger, feels like a dagger, it's a dagger!I think when we were given it centuries ago ,the Guru saw it simply as a dagger,there was no lecture given on the origin of the word kirpan or anything else ,Sikhs perhaps did need it for close quarter defence they could not carry the big one everywhere,remember this was during turbulent times and before the rule of law and
> 
> _before a proper police force existed._
> 
> *For Example:  *_Punjab Police lol_


Sat Sri Akal.


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## OSingh

Ambarsaria ji

"Sikhs can and will carry lot of other stuff too as the times change. Whether this will be a replacement for Kirpan or a Kirpan with hidden electronics or other ammunition, only time will tell."

Its clear Kirpan cannot be replaced. Its vital for preparation of Karah Parshad and Amrit. The moment a Sikh takes off his Kirpan and adopts some other weapon he ceases to Sikh. You cannot go against Hukam from Panj Piare, which is Hukam form Guru Gobind Singh ji. We cannot just 'replace' Kakars they are gifts from Satguru Gobind Singh ji.  

We can use modern weapons but that does not mean we have to modify our current kakars. We can wear Kirpan in gatra while also holding a gun, axe etc.

Kakars will never grow old. A Gursikh wearing Dastar with Kirpan and Full Kesh will always be an amazing sight, even one million years from now. Gursikh roop is niara (seperate) and always will be, such is the bakshsish of Guru Gobind Singh ji.

I believe baata for preparation of Amrit and Karah Parshad should be made of Sarbloh in addition to Kirpan. However this is not relevant to discussion.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

O Veera, I understand the ceremonial need but does a Sikh stop being a Sikh when he boards a plane or has a shower, maybe the reason nearly 80% of young Sikhs in the UK don't wear it is because they think it is not as necessary in modern times with the rule of law in place. 
*Could the Khalsa have actually been an early police force, like the Peelers ? As it is an ethical ,lightly armed force with a uniform appearance.*


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## OSingh

Not 'Sinner' ji

"_O Veera, I understand the ceremonial need but does a Sikh stop being a Sikh when he boards a plane or has a shower_"

Baptized Sikh violates rehit when he/she *voluntarily* removes a Kakar, in case of boarding plane they have *no choice* therefore this is not violation of rehit. 

Baptized Sikh never removes Kirpan, Kachera, Kara or Kangha from body even in shower. Any rehitvaan Gursikh will confirm this.

"maybe the reason nearly 80% of young Sikhs in the UK don't wear it is because they think it is not as necessary in modern times with the rule of law in place. "

It doesn't matter if 1% or 100% of Sikhs don't wear Kirpan. Rehit is Rehit, Gursikhs follow the ways of Satguru ji, not the ways of worldy people. Gursikh is automatically a law abiding person if he/she follows bachans of Guru ji. 

A Gursikh will never remove or swap their Kakars to become 'modern'. Gursikhs follows the bachans of Guru Sahib and then the world, if its a choice between the world or Guru ji, a Sikh will always serve the Guru and not the world. 

Rare are Sikhs that follow bachans of Satguru.

I seek the dust of such Sikhs.

Rabb Rakhe


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## kds1980

Arvind said:


> IMHO, the five Ks will stay as it is. In the coming years or centuries, there will be people who will be able to understand the real purpose and divinity of the 5Ks, and not just look at these superficially.
> 
> Warm Regards.



The question is what will be the percentage of Sikhs who will wear 5ks?Look at muslims ,there was time when fairly good percentage of them use to keep beards ,but in last century almost 99% discarded it.The one who keep it now are old or middle aged .Now this has created problem for them Indian air force don't allow allow them to keep beards and surprising fact is even Pakistani air force don't allow them to keep it.


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## spnadmin

> Thinking outside the box



Once again we come to the knotty issue. Is creativity better? Khalsa have made a covenant with the quom and the Guru. A voluntarily decision, as far back as the first Baisakhi, to give up their heads, to do the dance of love, with a Guru who is still asking for heads. Creativity? The decision to wear kakkars is a choice made freely to cede some small but significant part of individuality, a free-ranging instinct of ego to think we can do it better. A sacrifice, a gift.

Perhaps the kakkars will change. Maybe amrit sanchar will change. Or the Sikh Rehat Maryada which outlines the requirements and duties of Khalsa to the quom will change. But creativity won't be the motivation or the means for such a change.


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## Ambarsaria

spnadmin said:


> Once again we come to the knotty issue. Is creativity better? Khalsa have made a covenant with the quom and the Guru. A voluntarily decision, as far back as the first Baisakhi, to give up their heads, to do the dance of love, with a Guru who is still asking for heads. Creativity? The decision to wear kakkars is a choice made freely to cede some small but significant part of individuality, a free-ranging instinct of ego to think we can do it better. A sacrifice, a gift.
> 
> Perhaps the kakkars will change. Maybe amrit sanchar will change. Or the Sikh Rehat Maryada which outlines the requirements and duties of Khalsa to the quom will change. But creativity won't be the motivation or the means for such a change.


spnadmin ji I perhaps did no state it clearly.  I am not suggesting change but that the technology could evolve which will only enhance Kirpan, the sheath as well as the Gatra.  Nothing more and nothing less.  If Sikh Rehat Maryada 300 years from now so chose not to allow it, that will be so fine too.  However if it did adapt or allow such, that will be fine too for me.







Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

spnadmin said:


> Once again we come to the knotty issue. Is creativity better? Khalsa have made a covenant with the quom and the Guru. A voluntarily decision, as far back as the first Baisakhi, to give up their heads, .


 
Dear Spnadmin Ji 
It is not about creativity as much as the need to be progressive ,after all we are the most modern religion but we are stuck in our own history, "It is not the strongest of the species that *survives*, nor the most intelligent that *survives*. It is the *one* that is the *most adaptable* to change"
Charles Darwin


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## BhagatSingh

Why does it have to be a kirpan OR a lightsabre? Why not both together as one weapon?

Maybe the Kirpan handle can be engineered to be a light sabre. On one side you have the metal blade, and when activated the light sabre appears on the opposite side. You get the best of both ancient and modern.


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## Ambarsaria

BhagatSingh said:


> Why does it have to be a kirpan OR a lightsabre? Why not both together as one weapon?
> 
> Maybe the Kirpan handle can be engineered to be a light sabre. On one side you have the metal blade, and when activated the light sabre appears on the opposite side. You get the best of both ancient and modern.


BhagatSingh ji I got nailed for saying the same in my post(s).  For example even spnadmin ji kind of objected,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/36798-300-years-will-sikh-wear-kirpan-2.html

Let us see if gloves come off for you too lol

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin

This is what I actually said



> Perhaps the kakkars will change. Maybe amrit sanchar will change. Or the Sikh Rehat Maryada which outlines the requirements and duties of Khalsa to the quom will change. But creativity won't be the motivation or the means for such a change.



So I was not ruling out the possibility of change. 

Let's put our thinking caps on and figure why the kirpan is metal. Historical and spiritual reasoning would relate. Then we might get a bead on the motivation for collective will to change.

Whether steel or brass or some other metal might be light activated (pardon my reductio ad simplicitas) would certainly be the stuff of hundreds of internet threads of the future. A Beadbi? Not a beadbi? Surely we would also read bitter debates about whether amrit for amrit sanchar could be stirred with anything that was light activated. Ultimately the panth has the resources to decide in a rational way. Will it?

BTW I never wear gloves. Too cumbersome.


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## Ambarsaria

spnadmin ji I was not there 300 years ago and I won't be here 300 years hence.  The patents don't last that long for me to do any creative work for any more on this thread.  I am slightly familiar with the Sarb Loh concept and it is worth carrying forward but Sikhism always needs to continue a validation with times whether something as change comes out of such is for Sangat of the times to decide for sure.

I challenge anyone to prove that the Iron used today to make Kirpans is the same formula from our Guru's times when there were no steel mills in Punjab or the region.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

Ambarsaria and Bhagat Singh Ji,If symbolism is what matters and not utility ,then why not just carry a hologram of a kirpan?

<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rFWGJ72j6Yk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## aristotle

The answer is not the 'Kirpan or Lightsaber', it is instead 'Kirpan and Lightsaber'. Sikhism never forbids carrying a second weapon. You may do so if the need arises and the law permits. The Kirpan has far more meanings attached to it rather than just an assault weapon.


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## kds1980

The actual Kirpan that Guru's ordered to wear was  3feet long kirpan.If I am not wrong the present 9 inch Kirpan was compromise with the Britishers as they were not allowing Sikhs to wear the original length


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## aristotle

kds1980 said:


> The actual Kirpan that Guru's ordered to wear was  3feet long kirpan.If I am not wrong the present 9 inch Kirpan was compromise with the Britishers as they were not allowing Sikhs to wear the original length


Any references that the original kirpan included in the 5ks was 3 feet long, I mean, why specifically so and what's wrong in the 9 inch kirpans??


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## kds1980

aristotle said:


> Any references that the original kirpan included in the 5ks was 3 feet long, I mean, why specifically so and what's wrong in the 9 inch kirpans??



Since when a 9 inch long when weapon is called Kirpan? Kirpan is clearly a weapon with good length.Nepali's too wear a small dagger which is called Khukhri
Anyway here there was discussion in which one person mentioned that the size of Kirpan was shortened

http://fateh.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/di...80D92E0CDDD234D387257336002F6DA8!OpenDocument

Nihang sites too mention this


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## kds1980

Weapons - Modern Kirpan
Weapons
Main Page
Khanda Sword
Tulwar Sword
Modern Kirpan
Chakkar Quoit
Katar Dagger
Tabar Axe
Dhal Shield
Shastar Nam Mala Poem

In earlier times the sacred kirpan carried by Sikhs had traditionally been the full size tulwar sword. By the 20th century the kirpan carried by Sikhs had evolved from the typical 30 inch blade of a tulwar sword to a short blade less than 18 inches.


Early 20th century kirpan with inlaid mother of pearl handle
12.5 inches in length, ca. 1920's - 1930's, private collection

The change in blade length of the sacred kirpan from a sword to a knife was a difficult one for Sikhs and a direct result of onerous laws passed by the British in India. Under the Indian Arms Act (XI) of 1878, no person could carry arms except under special exemption or by virtue of a licence; the act was applied to the Sikh kirpan. At the advent of World War I, the British government fearing that the ban would affect Sikh recruitment into the British Army, thought it advisable to relax the enforcement of the provision. Between 1914 and 1918, two notifications were issued by the British government giving Sikhs the freedom to possess or carry a kirpan. However the terms of these notifications were vague; the size and shape of the kirpan having remained undefined; prosecution of the Sikhs for wearing, carrying and manufacturing the kirpan continued. During the period of the Gurudwara Reform Movement (1920-1925), the British revoked the notifications and Sikhs were once again prosecuted and imprisoned, Sikh soldiers in the armed forces were even court marshalled and dismissed for keeping kirpans. In 1921 the kirpan factories at Bhera and Sialkot in Punjab were raided and all kirpans exceeding 9 inches in length were seized and the owners of the factories put under arrest. Eventually in 1922 after negotiations between the British and the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee the Sikhs again won the right to carry their kirpans, although now with a much shorter blade. [1]

http://www.sikhmuseum.com/nishan/weapons/kirpan.html


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

Sinner said:


> If it looks like a dagger, feels like a dagger, it's a dagger!I think when we were given it centuries ago ,the Guru saw it simply as a dagger,there was no lecture given on the origin of the word kirpan or anything else! A primary need had to be addressed to survive we had to have some sort of defence at that time.It has been shortened ,remember this was centuries ago and before the rule of law and before a proper police force existed.Needs must and Alls Fair in Love and War.In peace time I think the Guru may have decided to relax the requirement.


Was the smaller kirpan the required K from the outset ,because the larger kirpan would not be practical to keep at your side always.


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## spnadmin

Thanks to all, especially for refocusing the thread, and the historical information from kds1980 ji.Understanding how change occurs, the history of change, the circumstances that shape change, the emotions and religious issues that surround change, and the social impact, all are very important.


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## Ambarsaria

spnadmin said:


> Thanks to all, especially for refocusing the thread, and the historical information from kds1980 ji.Understanding how change occurs, the history of change, the circumstances that shape change, the emotions and religious issues that surround change, and the social impact, all are very important.


spnadmin ji thanks.

Special thanks to kds1980 for the reference material.

Let it be left to the future generations to enhance the Kirpan and make it effective and consistent with the glory days of Sikhism and the technologies that become available in the future.  Always to be done with participation and civil discourse, agreement and blessing of Khalsa Panth.

Go Sikhs Go  animatedkhanda1 mundahug.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria

Sinner said:


> Special thankyou to me,sorry I meant thee, I once raised a similar question on my facebook account, when a full group of Sikhs were removed from DraytonManor Park this year .( Health and Safety on rides) one of the boys kirpan had showed.
> 
> 
> 
> I asked why not one Sikh respectfully carry all the kirpans for the group
> 
> _Isn't this done today while flying where people hand over the Kirpan to the Pilot/cabin staff?_
> 
> The response from Amritdhari friends was very angry ,maybe this should be on another thread but hey ho!


Thanks for starting the thread as it brought out good information in the dialog.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria

Sinner said:


> Veera the question is if you can do that for a nine hour flight ,then why can't you go to work for nine hours if you have to do so, I'm not advocating leaving it at home , I say this by way of discourse only no disrespect meant.


Sinner ji perfectly valid philosophical question but I don't want to go there peacesign!  

Why do they have constitutional guarantee to bear arms in the USA!  The wise men thought, let no body be allowed to bully/intimidate anyone.  As the threat of a slug in the forehead if you violate, does create peace, may be!

Another place another time, but wonderful dialog can be had over a pop :interestedmunda:

Sat Sri Akal.


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## aristotle

I am going to be a Doc in some 4 yrs from now, so, I wonder if the full sized 3 feet long kirpan would be practicable while doing a surgery or attending to the patients. There would be a similar question for many other professions. We have to find some way out, after all, at the same time maintaining the Amritdhari identity.


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## kds1980

aristotle said:


> I am going to be a Doc in some 4 yrs from now, so, I wonder if the full sized 3 feet long kirpan would be practicable while doing a surgery or attending to the patients. There would be a similar question for many other professions. We have to find some way out, after all, at the same time maintaining the Amritdhari identity.



Well all agree that 3 feet kirpans are not practical in present world,but again the question of practicability could arises for other issue's as well


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## Ambarsaria

kds1980 said:


> Well all agree that 3 feet kirpans are not practical in present world,but again the question of practicability could arises for other issue's as well


One has to find practical solutions for such as well,

If you going for MRI diagnostics you cannot have any magnetic elements on you including Kara and Kirpan.  

What is very important in all this is that we don't get stuck in the literal versus the essence.  This is hugely prevalent in Gurbani discussions and is also very visible in Kakkar discussions.  Just like Gurbani, if you cannot get to the message you really gain very little of what Guru ji is saying.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## aristotle

Why are we viewing Kirpan as an assault weapon? There may be 5 in a 100 times it fails as a defence weapon but what about the rest 95 times when it may save your and others' life? Kirpan is not limited for that purpose though, it gives self-confidence, establishes the separate morphological identity of the Khalsa and many more...
Many people and even governments consider the Crucifix, Kirpan etc. as symbols of violence, I wonder how'll they react to revolvers or assault guns. After all, carrying such weapons in public is definitely illegal in many parts of the world. People can be killed with mathematical compasses too, if you ban the Kirpan, why not ban them too??
peacesign


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## Ambarsaria

aristotle said:


> Why are we viewing Kirpan as an assault weapon? There may be 5 in a 100 times it fails as a defence weapon but what about the rest 95 times when it may save your and others' life? Kirpan is not limited for that purpose though, it gives self-confidence, establishes the separate morphological identity of the Khalsa and many more...
> Many people and even governments consider the Crucifix, Kirpan etc. as symbols of violence, I wonder how'll they react to revolvers or assault guns. After all, carrying such weapons in public is definitely illegal in many parts of the world. People can be killed with mathematical compasses too, if you ban the Kirpan, why not ban them too??
> peacesign


Who is more potent in physical combat for self defense,


A Sikh carrying un-sharpened Kirpan
A Karate Blackbelt Sikh
Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

Veer Ji ,The most potent is the one who does not fear ,regardless of kirpan or skill.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

Veer Ji ,Thats not the case,just a friendly discourse ,I just feel that if a blackbelt or armed man was suddenly overwhelmed by fear, a unskilled man would get the better of him. Fearlessness is potent in that you can then act as you must .


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## aristotle

The story would have been different had Sikhism advocated only the Kirpan, but in reality, the kakaars are so tightly woven in the fabric of Sikhism that it is practically impossible to segregate them out.
Consider, a non-Sikh sporting a Kirpan, but he does not have the bliss of 'Charhdikala' and 'Nirbhau'. That does not make him much different from other people on the street. Anyone may buy the kakaars from the market, but from where will we buy the philosophy? Sikhism is a way of life, not only the metaphysical, not only the physical, but essentially the best of both. 

animatedkhanda1


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## SinghWeapon

Singh should defend himself by any means necessary. You dont bring a knife to a gunfight, and you dont bring a gun to a bomb site.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

in the 1965 war..the Paksitanis had the best American Fighter planes the F16...and India had the aging Migs....but the difference was in the PILOTS !!!


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

Thankyou all for your participation,the question I feel is not of the type or size of kirpan ,the question is ,is it the practice of Gurbani and faith in God that makes a Sikh fearless or the Kirpan and Rehat?


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## kds1980

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> in the 1965 war..the Paksitanis had the best American Fighter planes the F16...and India had the aging Migs....but the difference was in the PILOTS !!!



Just to correct you Gyani ji There were no F-16 in PAF and Migs were at that time were new and of latest technology but India had very few of them.Pakistan Had Sabre ,F-104 and Canberra while India was heavily relying on Gnat and Hunters which were very poor quality.and Yes Indian Pilots were superior.
Nirmaljeet singh sekhon  took his 1 Gnat to take on 6 Sabre aircrafts in 1971 war
and shot down 2 of them while 4 others retreated when they attacked Srinagar airbase.

 A detailed account of 1965 Aerial war

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/2007/04/IAF-defeated-PAF-in-1965-War.html


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## Ambarsaria

kds1980 ji I believe you are spot on.  Thanks.​ 
I saw aerial dog fights in Amritsar as well as some of the bombing damage near Atari just on the other side of Khalsa College Amritsar.  Lot of anti-aircraft fire would light up the sky too at night.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## aristotle

Sinner said:


> Thankyou all for your participation,the question I feel is not of the type or size of kirpan ,the question is ,is it the practice of Gurbani and faith in God that makes a Sikh fearless or the Kirpan and Rehat?



The beauty of this question lies in itself. Gurbani is a great means of personal and spiritual instruction, and the practice of Gurbani is the 'Rehat'. The five kakaars, and all the virtues to be practised are a part of the Rehat. Rehat isn't any different from Gurbani, it is the faith in Gurbani that makes the Sikh practise the Rehat. 
What else thing other than faith could have motivated Bhai Subeg Singh, Bhai Shahbaz Singh, Bhai Taru Singh et al to maintain their Rehat even in the face of extreme adversities?


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

Ari Ji

*Gurbani is God made, the rehat you refer to is manmade*.Those mighty souls were fighting against injustice and for the principle of *freedom*.Let us all be free Souls and practice the word of God first.


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## Tejwant Singh

BhagatSingh said:


> Why does it have to be a kirpan OR a lightsabre? Why not both together as one weapon?
> 
> Maybe the Kirpan handle can be engineered to be a light sabre. On one side you have the metal blade, and when activated the light sabre appears on the opposite side. You get the best of both ancient and modern.



Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please stop giving these ideas to our modern Darth Vader- Ex- Vice President, **** Cheney and I love these astrixs. They show the real meaning.


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## Tejwant Singh

Sinner said:


> Ari Ji
> 
> *Gurbani is God made, the rehat you refer to is manmade*.Those mighty souls were fighting against injustice and for the principle of *freedom*.Let us all be free Souls and practice the word of God first.



Sinner ji,

Guru fateh.

I beg to differ with you about the latter part of your post. Yes, Gurbani is inspired by Ik Ong Kaar and 1429 pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru  give us the tools that show us  how to live our lives in a Miri-Piri fashion, which is Rehat.

If I am not mistaken, you are confusing Rehat with Rehatnaamas which are man made indeed and should be updated with time.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

Tej Ji ,Sikh never begs, even to differ ,but rehatnaamas was what I indeed meant and thanks for your participation on this thread.
Cordially
Sokhi


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## aristotle

Sinner said:


> Tej Ji ,Sikh never begs, even to differ ,but rehatnaamas was what I indeed meant and thanks for your participation on this thread.
> Cordially
> Sokhi



By 'Rehat' I meant SRM, since the post is regarding one of the kakaars. SRM is the direct result of the Sikh peoples' understanding of the Gurbani. So, even if it is manmade, it is worth following. SRM is a clear and light book, without any apparent contradictions, and is capable of governing the believers in every aspect of life. Religion is personal, Panth is a communal activity.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel

Gears of War 3: Dust to Dust - YouTube



Maybe Sikh Warriors in the Future will Fight like this.


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## Seeker9

I'm all for progress!

Perhaps in 300 years someone will invent a hair treatment as well so you don't require a Kanga and it will remain protected and weatherproof without the need for a turban either


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