# Defination Of Patit/Fallen From Sikhhood



## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 19, 2005)

Gurfateh

Thus das started this thread and views are invited.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 19, 2005)

Gurfateh

Das will start and touch various aspect of this.

When Das became Sikh many of his Hindu Punajbi reltives started to him that he should be Sikh by Mind.Mann Ke Sikh Banno.

That is similar to one of the novel Vijai Singh of Bhai Veer Singh.

Das was told to remain Sikh by heart or mind but let him retain Hindu apperance.

Das has a God sister of Ludhian who was at the forefrnt while his mother was controlled by his Hindu father who is from Bihar and Ex Army Officer.

Das asked the sister.Why should not a person be in appearnce what is in mind and why should be there the Duality or Dogalapan.

Is it possible for das to sleep with in lady in physical state but consider her has a sister in mind.

Well Gurbani talks of Tan(Body) Mann(mind)  Dhan(wealth)  Sabh(All) Saunpe Gur Ko(suurreder to Guru(Akal).

With this logic did Das kept 5Ks.

Reason for Tenth Master's not incluidng this or any of his Bani in Adi Guru Darbar was not that,His Bani was only within the time frame and had no eternal appeal.Had this been then Japu Sahib would have been added just after Japu Ji sahib.But nothing was added.

Reason was that Adi Guru Darbar was to there to unite the Human Kind.But Khalsa the form of Guru was the Task force of Guru to carry oout such work even after Gurus departure and for that some exclusuve guidlines for them was needed and that was only for them and that lead to the making of other two holy books.

Das thinks that Gurmat was made to resore order and Faith before them were to be retained plus a few foolproof things to be added so that Dharam(rithousness be reamain).

Were First Nanak and Sanit Kabeer the rebels or restrere of the order from Anachy can be found from here.

They did confronted political Anchricts or dictators who were misinterpreting the faith to fullfil there own golas and that is breaking the rules and Guru restores it.

We have Nimrood,Kansa,Hirankshyap,Balban,Ibrahim lodi or say Aurang zeb which did wrong and some of them even declared them  selves to be God(another disorder).And they were destroyedby Akal some way or the other.

So people who have opposed anrchy were not patits but rather resorers of the Old Rules which were OK and attempts to destroy them were thence folied.

Say it in order to marry but Adultory is not.Say in Adultory some rules could be folllowed.(like in Kok Shastra) so be it good or be it Bad there is some order.

Das can not justfy say Al Qaeda if it says that it revloutionary which wants to resotre arder by killing innocnets,Same could be treu for Musoloni or Stalin.

Right to live for genral public is order and attempt to break it be killing innocnet is anrachy.None of our holy men did.

das now starts to use logic of graph theory to prove that how a person who cuts his hair can be fallen.

Say from ABC we have to reach Q

From A WE reach Q via S,From B we reach Q Via P and from C Via R.

So we have routes

ASQ,BPQ and CRQ.

We could see that all are ways to Q yet have difernt routes.

Say from C insted of R some one takes route via T(which is done for the first time) to Q then route will be

CTQ which in Not equal to CRQ.

In the same way if someone becomes Patit then that persoan can reach God from other way which in this case is CTQ but that must not mean that CRQ which is tested for Long becomes usless or CTQ any becomes equal to CRQ.

Likewise if some has to do graduation as other are doing via matricualtion.Say some one does not do matricualtion and device another way to attain graduation without doing matriculation.

Gardulation of two typpes will not be the same.Rather way to attain both the type of graduation is onmly diifferance between the two.

But in any way graduation via matriculation is no where supperior nor inferroir to one who confers the degree but as a matter of right persuers of type of grauduation may deem thier types as better which is thier own opinion.

Das can say that there are three types of Patits.

1,One who becomes Khalsa but his converters or Sangat themselves are ritualistics and devoid of knowledge of Gurmat and they tell Panth a Path noble as Dogma.In practicle life conversion becomes full of ironies to the convert and he/she leaves the fold and say cut hairs in protests.

There but for seeking the guidance from true Sikh(which could be debrared by this wrong Sangat(Company) there may not any fault of Patit.

Here a person has become Patit or Fallen or Patan Sheel but without his own fault.

2,When a convert changes the appearance to suit job or matimonianl or court ship etc.There person is fallen by Greed or attachment etc.Here it is by deed of God it apparnt that it is fault of Patit himself/herself.

3,When the person who by mercy of Akal has to be a maker of new Faith(eg Majority of Sikhs do respect Rama Kriahsna Mission inspite of its being post Gurus).Or he/she has to join another Faith.That person leaves Sikhi and join other Faith.

That person by blessing of Akal gets salvation via other self created new way or another exisating ways.

Then also Patit has only fault that he shoulkd have not joined Sikhism but should have gone to other faiths straight away but all is in Hand of Akal.

But in all the three cases person can not be termed as Sikh of Khalsa order.That person could be the Sikh(desiple or follower) of Maamon(case 2),Frustration(Case1) and as per Case 3 of Jesus,Mohamud,Krishna ,Nirankari,Rama Krishna etc. etc. or some yet to come.Khalsa has not enimtiy to them but can not say that they are same to them.

Das may not be completing the whole article today but will write what is wrong in Punjab.

Well when Sikh rule came many Jatts who so far anti Sikh joined Panth and brot\ught ther pagan values.After Sikh rule was over they still clung in the areas ruled by pricly Sikhs states or the one near them.

There might is right thing can be seen in the acts of Badalkis of SGPC ,the way they have removed S. Kala Afghana.

There could be many pseudo Nihungs,Akalis,AKJs,SGPCs, Taksalis,Nirmalas etc.

But only negivte mind will crib on them and follow them or tell thier quotieing thier misdeed.

It is clearly stated by so Called Akali Dal Badal that it is the Punjabi Party but if it is true then what on earth is it doing in sgpc which is Sikh institution.

Thier Jatt ego wants them to cling and throw away Singhs like Kala Afghana.

Well people like Das does not deem them Sikh even.Guru Panth is for them 96 Crori Shiro Mani Budhadal,Sikhs from Two Takhats out side Punjab,Taksal with Sant Samaj,Real Devotees of AKJ and Followers of S. Kala Afghana Sahib.

Das has seen most of the young jatts of so called Akalis are Sirrgum(Sirdar means leader or one who has(Dar) Head(sir or turban). Sir(Head) Gumm(is the looser) of head.As without turban his head does not has prominense visible.They were there till the time of Guru.

Das has seen one Huqumanammah of Guru sent to Kabul teeling us Kurahits(evil acts) as well keeping of 5Ks etc and all is in Punjabi and this also tells of taking Amrit and it has date and sign of Guru.

Das will soon conclude only with what is the logic to keep 5ks and why Akalis etc are trying to paint Patits as Sahij Dharis.(To Be continued)


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 19, 2005)

Gurfateh

Das will try to coclude it now.

Guru Ji told us to stay awy from hypocratic Sikhs namely,Ramrayas,Siirgumms,Minas,Masand,Dhirmalliyas.

we were told to keep Five Ks.

Killing Female child for gender is an offense and no one can say that person is not patiti who does this.

Adultray can increase risk of STD or UTIS are germs can pass via defecftive or just broken contraceptive.And institution of Family or child born out of it can also face lots or problrms.

Then usegae of tobbco harsm the user and people nearby also and again i nhealthy body does a healthy mind and spirit lives(Sick people can not have stertnght to sing glory of God while they still keep on taking agent of sickness ie tobbaco or addiction ot intoxicants.

Halal was discourage due to our saying same God in flesh and blood and code of Mosses to be ended by Jesus and as per Kuran eating blood is prohitibed may be taking about unhelath blood which is contaminated by ground contact.

Last comes the 5Ks.

When Guru was asked then how to see him after he is one with Akal.

Guru said to see him Khalsa.Hewas askees say if There is no Khalsa to seen other then viewr then Guru told too see in miiror.

So when in moring we see ourself in miioror we see the face of Guru and not ours and get inspire to do as Guru did.

Perhaps Bhai Joga Singh did not commit adultory by seeing his own face in mirror outside the brothel which looked like the Guru and not one could imangine Guru doing wrong.

So we as a Khalsa need to do Guruworthy acts so what is in mind comes in physcical form or in practical by 5ks.

Then what was the reason of Guru Giving 5ks or what was about Amrit.

It is said that Guru cut the head of all initial Fives and exchaged them.This is only symbol of ending of caste.After Amrit Dharam eating in same bowl also is proof of our joining one family and a speacial task force.

Punjabis or Jatts have forgottan thier past due to living in a socity where Sikhism has weaken the caste but as due to pagan effect of fake Akalis we have Sikhism getting weak and castism coming Back.

Das know that in meerut Area lower caste were oppredesed by higher caste as well as Muslim but some one of them become Sikh and was beaten by Muslim but Sikh arrounf irrespective of the caste Attacked and defened the attackee.

As we have seen that militants in Kashmeer and Taliban wanted Hindus or Sikhs to wear saffron colour,Or in Past Hindus were not allowed to ride horses. That was the way to let infidal be easyly visible to be explotied. Even within Muslims only Rich or Ashraf(foreners) were wearing differanct dress(which was further subvided on racial based on regeonal variotion) and local were Indian were wearing diferant.

Then in Hindus too based upon caste we had differnt dress code.Dand(Stick) till head for Brahmin,Till shoulder for Kshtriya and till Waist for Vaishyas and no stick to Shudra.

That was anyway the misquting of Holy Books by veted intersets.Like in Islam also insptipe of Rasools saying to get knwlegde go till China while St Kabir was nor given eduaction due to his weaver caste inspite of being Muslim.So as per Manu Samrit caste does not exist but there are Professions.

So to unite man Kind from racial or colour or caste differance they are givne 5 equal things to let them know that they were one.

Sikh with 5Ks be it Syad or Jatt or Negro or Aryan in past look just the same in apperance also.

but Jattism of Badalkis type move for dictatorship and they try to paint Patits as Sahijdharis or there are patits in them with 5 Ks on.

Das wants the opinon of learned people over here.


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## rosethorne (Oct 19, 2005)

WJKK
WJKF
Dear Vijaydeepji, You are true Gursikh surely,that is not a point of you are not born Sikh. What the born Sikhs doing in todays world, they only take meanings of Gurbani for their interest. I'm a born Sikh. Thats why I know the fact of it. WE as born sikhi, just take it as easy, Full life of being Patits, we are ready to live. Not knowing the fact If GURU NANAK is mine then GURU GOBIND SINGH is also mine. We are not ready to be baptised by our Gurus. We just wanted to have prosporous lives. We are not hesitating about any Patit Karmas, But we hesitate to be baptised. The one more thing in Sikhi is that we are not able to know about Patit-Karmas. It is very shameful to us because we have the finest GURU on Earth With us and we are not able to find the truth.

gauVI mhlw 5 ] pwrbRhm pUrn prmysur mn qw kI Et ghIjY ry ]​ijin Dwry bRhmMf KMf hir qw ko nwmu jpIjY ry ]1] rhwau ] mn kI miq iqAwghu hir jn hukmu bUiJ suKu pweIAY ry ] jo pRBu krY soeI Bl mwnhu suiK duiK EhI iDAweIAY ry ]1] koit piqq auDwry iKn mih krqy bwr n lwgY ry ] dIn drd duK BMjn suAwmI ijsu BwvY iqsih invwjY ry ]2] sB ko mwq ipqw pRiqpwlk jIA pRwn suK swgru ry ] dyNdy qoit nwhI iqsu krqy pUir rihE rqnwgru ry ]3] jwicku jwcY nwmu qyrw suAwmI Gt Gt AMqir soeI ry ] nwnku dwsu qw kI srxweI jw qy ibRQw n koeI ry ]4]16]137](pMnw 209)

GAUREE, FIFTH MEHL: He is the Supreme Lord God, the Perfect Transcendent Lord; O my mind, hold tight to the Support of the One who established the solar systems and galaxies. Chant the Name of that Lord. || 1 || Pause || Renounce the intellectual cleverness of your mind, O humble servants of the Lord; understanding the Hukam of His Command, peace is found. Whatever God does, accept that with pleasure; in comfort and in suffering, meditate on Him. || 1 || The Creator emancipates millions of sinners in an instant, without a moment's delay. The Lord, the Destroyer of the pain and sorrow of the poor, blesses those with whom He is pleased. || 2 || He is Mother and Father, the Cherisher of all; He is the Breath of life of all beings, the Ocean of peace. While giving so generously, the Creator does not diminish at all. The Source of jewels, He is All-pervading. || 3 || The beggar begs for Your Name, O Lord and Master; God is contained deep within the nucleus of each and every heart. Slave Nanak has entered His Sanctuary; no one returns from Him empty-handed. || 4 || 16 || 137 || (Page209)


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## devinesanative (Oct 20, 2005)

Dear VijayDeep ji

No one perfect , and neither God is even Perfect , otherwise we would have all been look alikes ..........

We should acknowledge that there lies no perfection , if People like you will start discriminating , and not tolerating the imperfections of the other person , then what listen will you teach to a newly wed couple .

Will you teach that unless and until your spouse is not perfect you should engage in endless argument and criticize each other leading to divorce...

People learn from what elders do .......

You should promote , to understand each other , to tolerate each other inspite of all imperfections ..........

And , I Stronly object to your word .... PATIT ........

If you are pukka sikh then mere origination of the thought of believing others to be patit makes you a patit .......... Mind should be pure ...... knock out the word patit from your mind ...........


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## devinesanative (Oct 20, 2005)

Dear VijayDeep ji

I respect and admire your knowledge in the field of Gurbani ........

I would humbly request you that If you make your mind Pure ....... 

Please don't try to be a Hem ..........


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## devinesanative (Oct 20, 2005)

Dear Vijaydeep ji


If all the people be asked to go through test then all will turn out to be patits ......... 

But the difference is that the patitness of some people is hidden and patitness of some poeple open .........

No Word has absolute meaning , every word has relative meaning ......... 

When an employee works in a company he criticizes and blames the employer ...........

But when the same employee becomes the employer then he criticizes and blames the employee ..........

Now tell me if you are a true khalsa , and be asked to go and fight in the war .........

Which weapon will use 

Kirpan or AK47

As mentioned by many scholars , Khalsa is the spiritual army , then how many know that how to fight with a heavy Kirpan which was being used at the times of GuruGobind Singh Ji .........

Das ji , you are using a Computer which has been invented and designed by Patits ...... and being in the company of patits and using the patits technology also makes one Patit .........


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## devinesanative (Oct 20, 2005)

It seems Das ji is going to break the keyboard ..............


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 20, 2005)

Gurfateh

das is doing he should have not done and may akal forgive him.



> Dear VijayDeep ji
> 
> No one perfect , and neither God is even Perfect , otherwise we would have all been look alikes ..........


 

Till you do not know how God is it will be foolsih to call God as imperfect.
It is perfection of God that our individual faces are distinct so in world also we can attach an image of a person with his/her apperant deeds.Say theve can be recogansi and do gooder is also recogansiable.




> We should acknowledge that there lies no perfection , if People like you will start discriminating , and not tolerating the imperfections of the other person , then what listen will you teach to a newly wed couple .


 
Well it is surprisng that ever das said to not to tolrate but das would like you to tell that is it OK for you send your child with a person who is knwon child molester.If inspite of knowing this you do this then you are ideal but there will be a very few takers.




> Will you teach that unless and until your spouse is not perfect you should engage in endless argument and criticize each other leading to divorce...


 
In one or every filed when we have to move we need to be feasible if not optimal ie effeicent if not perfect.Das like your sprit but if in some cases like tolrating each other's firend without doubt evenn if confideance in each other does not there for even averge level then divorece will be done by themselves alltogather.

Telling about place for imporvment is good for improvement like in school if passing marks are not given then failure is must or say lower grade is must to show the proper place.This is still there 


> People learn from what elders do .......
> 
> You should promote , to understand each other , to tolerate each other inspite of all imperfections ..........


 
When did das said that we must not tolrate them who are fallen from Sikhi as matter of love there are been encouaged socalil to regain Sikhi.


> And , I Stronly object to your word .... PATIT ........
> 
> If you are pukka sikh then mere origination of the thought of believing others to be patit makes you a patit .......... Mind should be pure ...... knock out the word patit from your mind ...........


 
This means that a person who sees rapist doing rape and judgfe this and prevents rapist from act then as person who is preventing a rape is also is rapeist as that person has understood the word rapist in his mind.

This is jatt logic to be more claer(Das would like to say that das has not usinf term for any race as his father also has realtions with Jaats of Haryana but there has been a lot of jattism or might is right even if it is intellectualism since Prof Gurumukh singh Ji.)


> Dear VijayDeep ji
> 
> I respect and admire your knowledge in the field of Gurbani ........
> 
> ...


 
first Page of Guru Granrh sahib Ji has term that nothing is in hand of created.All is in Hand of Akal.What das think or write or what you do or what Patit does is dome by Akal.Only this much is Gurubani.Das does not has entitly as 'my' mind as mind of whole universe is of Akal.mind of das is of Akal.many people who read all three books of Panth(seee Sarbloh.info) just know this but by mercy of Akal when it is realised then it salvation while being alive.



> Dear Vijaydeep ji
> 
> 
> If all the people be asked to go through test then all will turn out to be patits .........


 
Das is here talking about the Patithood as per standard of Gurmat.

You want to say that if police files a case to all humans for murder then all will be found murderers s per law.

A person who cuts hairs kills one form of Guru so cutting hair as per Vocbulary is Kes(Hair) Katal(killing).






> But the difference is that the patitness of some people is hidden and patitness of some poeple open .........


 
Well if you have met only negative people then das can say that there are many postive people also who stick by there priceples even if they are non belivers.Das could say that there are some people who after they get verification by law are without any illiegal act.So they get Job in your India.If all are illgealg act doer then we can say that no one would have got the govenmtment job.

Das can say that no one is doer at all but Patits are Patits by will of Akal and by will of Akal others from Khalsa orders try to uplift them back and result is in hand of Akal.



> No Word has absolute meaning , every word has relative meaning .........


What is realtive meaning of word God.Or Say eternal.All words are in truth the word mentioned by das.It is not false but true as God is in it  this is for anything.Anything is false without God but if god is seen in it then it is true.


> When an employee works in a company he criticizes and blames the employer ...........


 
This is a wring genralised term as there are many who dies for the master and work as slave.Gurbani tells us to motivated for master creator.


> But when the same employee becomes the employer then he criticizes and blames the employee ..........


 
That does not happen in General as there are exeptions.

Das got what you are saying.Yuo want to say that Patit due to personal reason defends patithood say he himself is or say his family memeb4erfs are and one without any patithood will defend it.

In case of Das das keeps on askinfg the Resepected Sikhs online on this forum often(see varous post of das in Q& a) to see how das is conducting and if something wrong is done any persona can under go Tankhy ceromony.

Problem here is that there has been many attempts to follow personal expirance then taking and listening to others.

Say das eats meat but does behold Sikhs who are vegitarians higher then das.



> Now tell me if you are a true khalsa , and be asked to go and fight in the war .........
> 
> Which weapon will use
> 
> Kirpan or AK47


 
If you are in India das would like you to go to Nepal border and you will know that what Das was doing in past.

Read Dasham Granth.Guru talks of Panj Peers or five elder savour and one of them is Tupak or Small Gun(of Cannon).

Yuo must know that on Gun Sangeen or Buynut we use which is also like Kirpan.

Lastly in Urban warfare(to reduce collatral damge) and in Coomando raids knife or kirpan is used.Fuinal assult of Gorkhs is Khukari.

in battle of Chiliyanwali(in london there is memorial of it) Kirpan won Cannons.So was in charge of light brigade.

There were mnay like you which das saw in 1984 riots when das as child was a viwer of mob to kill sikhs.Who waited for gun but latter changed thier appearance to save thier bloody life.And there werem nay who used Kirpan to defend many.

anyway Das know how to use the both and cann take care of more 15 people with is 1.5 ' Kirpan(visit the site of Ustad of das during his stay in UK Shastervidiya.com)


> As mentioned by many scholars , Khalsa is the spiritual army , then how many know that how to fight with a heavy Kirpan which was being used at the times of GuruGobind Singh Ji .........


 
yuo should have seen that when  8 Sikhs Caputred Tiger hill they had Buynuts or not and thier valure without any spritual eduction but faith in God made them win.

It is very strange about the army which you are calling mere spritual and not on greouand.Gurmat is anti Hypocracy where a person what is in mind and sprit so is in appearance.

We still are and as told by Guru will reamin as in Mind as in Sprit and as in Form till world ends.Thgere will be many desteres who have destered and wants other to do so they will come and Go and we will not.

There are and will be many spritual armies in many faiths who were made and destorued as they were restricted till sprit or heart only and did not come out practically on grouond and were vanishing But we are increaseing  and we will keep on increasing.

Only thing is as Nihungs say Khot(un pure who want to put thier indivdual minds(man) Views(Matt)) are getting out and Pure Gurmat(Mind of Guru Akal )is coming in.


> Das ji , you are using a Computer which has been invented and designed by Patits ...... and being in the company of patits and using the patits technology also makes one Patit .........


 

Das is surprise to know that why are you calling Japnnesss who are very much like sikhs in thier Shintoism when they talk of being one with universe are patits.Its upto you.

But rember one thing Das has no knlwoedge that they did kill younger female child after getting Amrit SansKar(Baptism) of Khalsahood.

by the way when Guru santhched the swaord from Muslims or used there things in his mission what logic made himm Muslim or when he killed Masands by burning them alive for anti Sikh activiyies utilised tier assests for human welfARE we becomes Patit  or masand.

Das can sayu one thing you can talk of soacity where rule of law does not exist.You can say that rapist or murder by breaking law is equal to say one who kills Goat.

But yuo are sitting in freedom due to there are rules which restricts the absolutes freedoms of other.

Had rule of Khalsa was not there then even after 1999 kargill war(there was more casualties in Patit then also) then you may not been enjoying the freedom of targeting another member muslim had yo9u been in India.

das wants to telll all those who say like Swami Dayanand that Khalsa was needed only for some time frame and not needed know.

Vedas or castes like Luthra,Arorera,virk ,Sah or Solanki made before Khalsa still have relavence but Khalsa has no relvence.

As per Sarbloh Granth Guru Talks of unprecednted spritual person called Khalsa with Kachchh Kes Kirpan.

That Army is still on the task of Guru as Guru still rests in it.It has the task to elimnaite all those who try to exploit others often in name of God and those people were weaken by Khalsa but still are there and till they are ended we are on the Job.Once evil is elimnated then we will reaim safegurad that it does not return.

thats what Guru said and thats what will happen Akal's willing.If some one does not bea part of us he/she can desert us.But no one can take away from us the right to call spade a spade,A deseter a deserter,A Murders a murdrer,A patit a patit.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 20, 2005)

Gurfateh

if by breaking keyborad some broken thoughts can be mended thenn it is OK.

Das promise you that till like in ture Khalsa spirt das could not caputre your mind or make you understand his view of mind das will not concede.

Sprit of Khalsa is to keep on trying till we succed.

Here misson of das is to state ture Sikh is one who follows Guru withour a reluctance and other who have ifs and buts are not like that person.

Das would like ask any way the views of Great Sikhs who have guided  worm like das to give thier views like Amarpal Singh,Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji,Tejwant Singh,Manbir Singh Ji,Plamba Ji among many others who knwo panth better then noivce like das.

Das had no persoan obejection for using other term than patit for patits but das feels that term used by Guru was sirgumm(for hair cutters) Narimar(tobacoo user) and Kurimar(for female child killer).

In fact das is aware that there are many Sikhs who are fearless and are not afraid to be intimedated by Jatts who control sgpc and want to let thier patit offspring intrued managemtn as Sahijsdharis.

Due to thier jatthood only did Guru deprived thier youngs from Khalsahood.

Even if such people like Badalkis succed to let Patit call Sahijdharis soon they will all become Hindus.

Sikhs like Flooowers of Kala Afghana Ji,Nihungs,Taksalis or Akj people will maintain Sikhism inspite of that.Patit hood is found only in those fa,muilyies who still have caste attached to it as after leaving Sikhism they are easyly accomondated in hindusim which itself is caste.


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## devinesanative (Oct 20, 2005)

A person who claims that he can explain about the following

Love , Life , God , Death 

is Fool , because these can only be experienced and are based on Faith ......

Dear Das ji , there is one problem with every human being ......

From one extreme he goes to the other extreme .............


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## devinesanative (Oct 21, 2005)

Dear Vijaydeep ji

There is no dearth of People on this planet earth , Infact , in each and every step there are people who claim to mend the broken minds .......

But there is paucity of those who can atleast mend the the broken heart ...........

If broken heart could be mended then broken mind will automatically be mended..........


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 21, 2005)

Gurfateh

Respected devinesanative,

Our Guru realised the truth of all the stuf you call love,Life,God and  death.

they were able to explain that to the world.

many people who were unable to understand them did not called them fool but mad.

There is no fault of the one who realised the truth but for the one who lacks the depth of mind to understand the truth.

Das can recomend you to study Thre scriptures of Panth(Faith) and Akal willing you will realise what fool like das wants you to realise.

As per holy Bible being fool in God is better than being intelligent in world.


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## devinesanative (Oct 21, 2005)

Dear VijayDeep ji ,

This is neither your fault nor my fault , It is a basic instinct in human being to misunderstand the other due to the egos involved .

The problem was that you got illusioned by my Pen Name "Devine Sanative" and my logo , you made a nerve out of me .......

Many people preach daily about "Kam Krodh Lobh Moh Maya" to the others , But somewhere they also fall in the hands of Maya ..........

And far as our Gurus concerned they were really true Gurus , Let me tell you A Guru never Explains but He Enlightens .....

And our Gurus Enlightened us .


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 21, 2005)

Gurfateh

well rember one thing here  das is talking about mind which you call mann in hindi/Punjabi and as per Yoga including Raj yoga it is in heart.

Very tiny and not in brain.It is not in hand of human as we are tolls but Akal can make us mend as Akal only breaks.

The Guru enlighens you by explaining.

It could depend upon a person(ie mercy of Akal on that) weather he/she understands just by world Wahiguru or not even by Three books reading.

For das you are the form of Akal who is testing the the devotion of das towards the present manifestation(Swaroop) of Akal on earth called Khalsa.

unlike others who say Guru on earth is Adi Guru Darbar but as per orders(Samprdayas) to which das gets inspiration Guru is in all and Khalsa is visible form of Guru which can let others also see that Guru.

Duty of Khalsa is not to get salvation but to let other get it by realising Akal.It could be helpfull to know(by explantion) before Realising(by enlightenment) as direct enlightenment may make are person who knows only but can not explain or preach the others.

Khalsa is like torch who burns so let other get light.By mercy of Akal path(Panth) of Khalsa is easy for one with devotion or trust in what Guru says.

Here Guru is Akal,whom sent Four Vedas,Four Kateebs(Holy Bible and Holy Kuran) and then were sent our Three Holy Books to clarify the wrong interpetations of initial eight.

But alas there seems to similar attempt on our Three books.That is also be will of Akal.


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## kds1980 (Oct 21, 2005)

wjkk
wjkf

   my defination of patit is a person who takes amrit and then breaks rehat.
if a person is born in a sikh family and he was keeping kesh and then he cuts his hair without taking amrit is not patit.he was keeping kesh for his family not because of guru.guru ji never forces anybody to take amrit.


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## rosethorne (Oct 21, 2005)

WJKK
WJKF
      Dear Kds 1980ji and all Gursikhs, It is a good quesation that if we born in a Sikh family then it is our duty to keep hairs for our family and not for Guru. It is really a mistaken surprise to all Gursikhs. Because till today we believed in that we are born sikh because of grace of our Guru. And my question is from where we found our present family? Are we able to born anywhere we want? What is the answer? Anyone can Say Yes to it. That means the greatest for all is Guru not our present parents. One who is born in a Sikh family is a patit if he cutsoff his/her Hairs because it is not our loyality towards GURUSAHEB, who given us such a superb life to live. We are Patit Surely.


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## kds1980 (Oct 21, 2005)

rosethorne said:
			
		

> WJKK
> WJKF
> Dear Kds 1980ji and all Gursikhs, It is a good quesation that if we born in a Sikh family then it is our duty to keep hairs for our family and not for Guru. It is really a mistaken surprise to all Gursikhs. Because till today we believed in that we are born sikh because of grace of our Guru. And my question is from where we found our present family? Are we able to born anywhere we want? What is the answer? Anyone can Say Yes to it. That means the greatest for all is Guru not our present parents. One who is born in a Sikh family is a patit if he cutsoff his/her Hairs because it is not our loyality towards GURUSAHEB, who given us such a superb life to live. We are Patit Surely.



wjkk
wjkf

    dear rosethrone ji i agree with you that we are born a sikh by the grace of guru and it is our duty to keep hair.but our duty is also to take amrit to live honest life ,not to run after moneyetc.are we doing this the answer is no.are sikhs diffrent from the other people.infact 99% sikhs are running after money 
female foeticide dowry are very high among the sikhs.as a sikh we have to live life as mentioned in gurbani but we are not doing it.so majority of sikhs are patit whether they keep kesh or not.so just by cutting kesh aperson cannot be called patit.


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## devinesanative (Oct 22, 2005)

Dear KDs1980

You are 100% right that 99% sikhs are running after money........

Today , If anyone is Intelligent who has the following traits:

1) Ability to Mint Money
2) Ability to Drink Wine To do Business ( If you don't drink then you are called a Napunsak not a Mard )
3) Ability to woo and Flirt with women and enjoy sex with them.
4) Cheat Poeple Cleverly and Mint money on their innocence ..


This is the society .

Today everyone blames the youth and young women , but no one is trying to strike at the root .... The Problme is lying in the society .........

Unless and untill the mindset of the society is changed , nothing can be done .........

Today everyone is feeling Insecurity , and is living in the Scarcity Mentality ........

The meaning of Open minded and broad minded has changed ....... Today it means , Talking about errotic sex and indulging into sex ...........

And the Religious people are busy in their own world of Criticising one other and infact Busy with InterFaith Religious Fights .......

:}--}: My Religion is the Best ( Muslim )
:}--}: My Religion is the Best (Hindu )
:}--}: My Religion is the Best (Muslim)
:}--}: My Religion is the Best (Sikhs )

Sab Mast hai apnee Apnee Duniya Mein ...........

900 Chuhe Kha Billi Haj ko Chali .............

After enjoying their lives upto full extent , some the preachers start preaching other don't do this is bad ...... 

Chit Bhi Meri , Pat Bhi Meri .


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 22, 2005)

Gurfateh


Respected devinesanative,

you are correct to say that just by cutting hair no one is Patit BUT this implies to a person who has not undergone Amrit Ceromonay as kds has said.

As before taking Amrit that person does pledge that he/she will not become Fallen or Patit and by cutting hair he/she does fall from the pledge to be more clear before taking Amrit ,the person is told that if he/she does any of the Vajra Kurahit(breach of code) and that also intentiaonly(by force of others like forcebly cutting of hairs by mob in 1984 or in compulsion beyond the control like cutting of hairs by accindednt aree not patit).

so If Vajra Kurahits are made by intention by that person after baptism that person knows that he/she will be called Patit and he/she is informed before hand.

By taking amrit that person does concent of his/her being called patit if Vajra Kurahit is done.

If that person wants to be Sikh again then he/she has to retake Amrit.

there is another term called Tankhya were other smaller sins are addresed and smaaaler punishemtns are given.Alll is told before Baptism.

Das agrees that otherwise from sikh family someone removes hairs he cann not be called Patit from Khalsa order.

Weather a person from Sikh family should become Sikh or not depends upon mercy of Akal.

Kindly forgive das if he has offended anyone.Das is not from Sikh family as far as biological realtion are concern so in that spectrum can not say anything.But das finds himself as part of Khalsa brotherhood.

We can further discuss that should a person rem oing hairs without Amrit be called anything or should a person from Sikh family must take Amrit.Das welcomes the welcomes the views of others on this.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 23, 2005)

Gurfateh

Das underwent the study of Maryada of Tenth Master in Dasham Granth in Farsi and Updesh or discouorse by him in Sarbloh Granth.

In former the linacy viz a viz 5ks is writtan while discourse in latter is given for Trye Mudra wearing Sikhs ie Kachchh Kes Kirpan.

In former there was no word caled Khalsa while in both Amrit or Baptism or Pahul is not mentioned.

das belongs to order of Nirmalas made before Khalsa itself at paonta Sahib where 5 ks are not must and so iss with Udasis after Son of first Master yet all do keep Uncut hairs.

So das can say that a person who has not underwent baptism but has kept 5ks with his own will after removing them can be termed as falen from Sikhi.

But say if some one is born in Sikh family and in childhood when heshe is unable to understand he/she is told to keep Hairs or even if in childhood or on age when person is inacpable to decide best way for him,then even if that person undergoes baptism(in childhood).

Even if baptised in childhod if such person who becomes Sikh without own consent ,if he/she removes Hairs HE/She Can NOT NOT be termed as patit.


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## Satyaban (Oct 30, 2005)

devinesanative
I am what you call a "Hindu" but I prefer the name Sanatana Dharma. I would never say my path is best nor have I heard others say that. What I do say is that this path is best for me.
Om shanti shanti Om


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## Amerikaur (Nov 2, 2005)

Namaste Satyaban Ji

Your thoughts echo others.  When my sister and I were growing up, our parents would never talk about religion as a superlative, simply as a belief.  My mother in particular was very strict about never referring to another faith as something superior or inferior.

When we came across something that was different than what we as a family observed, she described everything as  "what some Jewish families believe" or "what some Coptic families believe"  

If we asked her if another faith's activity was wrong, or not good, she never answered that question.  She would say that we don't believe that way, or she would say that not all families are alike, but she would never pass judgement.

Of course, you can say in a few words to say what takes me 4 paragraphs........

It is good to see you again.  Hope you keep posting.


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## Satyaban (Nov 2, 2005)

Namaste Amerikaur,
I look at other faiths and I see that they worship God. The name that one uses is not important except to identify their school of thought. I use the name Shiva but names are a human invention. I also see that they believe that there is only one creator. I believe we all worship "That One". When I look at these things I see nothing I do not believe.

Our paths may begin at different points entangle, cross or diverge on the way but all have the same destination.

Some see the metaphor differently but that does not affect the commonality where my respect resides.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jan 6, 2006)

Gurfateh

Das got a great work by our Memeber Bhai Harbanslal Ji which is posted below

Who is an apostate?

The term, apostate, has been used in a religious sense since the beginning of institutionalized religionism. One who once held a faith but has since renounced it is considered an apostate in every religion. For the purpose of relating to this term the holding of a faith is ritualized by a ceremony of initiation or baptism in every religion. In contrast, those who are practicing a religion at any stage prior to a specific initiation or the ultimate adherence to a religious infrastructure are never considered apostates. They are rather labeled as aspirants to full conversion. 
More recently a great concern has been voiced in Sikh circles that the apostasy is on a rise. Many Sikh leaders have promoted many conferences and institutes. Many pages of Sikh press are assigned towards remorse on this real or perceived wave of apostasy. A concern such as this is not anything regretful. Such would be an expression of a religious community who is vibrant, and would exhibit a commitment to be the responsible doorkeepers of a religion. Therefore, the prevailing situation, should it be ascertained to be valid in Sikh community, indeed needs a serious attention and analysis. 
This letter is not to argue about numbers or the statistics on apostasy among the Sikhs. Rather it is to draw attention to a certain growing but a genuine psychology of the community, which is leading to many local and national conflicts. The holocaust of 1984, and its aftermath is a source of a real concern to every Sikh. Our community’s pre-occupation with collecting the ashes of the holocaust has not yet permitted to systematically gather data and assess the exact extent of the damage done with respect to apostasy. There are many horror stories of forcing Sikhs to abandon their form and symbols. This letter is not meant to belittle our grief. Rather it is about the debate on the definition of apostasy that is ongoing in the community. 
The purpose of this letter is also not to analyze the extent of the prevalence of apostasy, which is a matter deserving separate treatment. Rather, the point we wish to make is one of the misplaced emphases on the matter. There is no denying the fact that there may be some prevalence of apostasy among the Sikhs. However, by and large the Sikhs, who take Amrit appropriately and after appropriate preparation for commitment to its goals, do not denounce the Amritdhari discipline with any significant frequency. They are seen diligently adhering to the life style of an Amritdhari even in the face of many odds and difficulties. They value their mission of serving their Guru with their head they had offered for the purpose without any reluctance. However, those who do renounce those commitments once they had reached their adherence are certainly apostates. However, you do not see very many such apostates. Amrit and a conscious commitment to it are such a strong motivation and a drive that rarely any one is seen renouncing it. Further, there is an abundance of social pressure and support from the community that discourage any Amritdhari to fall to apostasy. As a matter of fact, an absolute number of the Amritdhari Sikhs has been increasing with every decade of the Sikh history. We see this in our Gurdwara every day even in the west. Then, where lies the problem? 
The problem lies in the definition of an apostate. There are many more Sikhs who may long to reach the commitment of an Amritdhari, but have not done it. Some of them were born in Sikh families and many more came over from other faiths. They are Sikhs but not yet Amritdhari Sikhs. Rather they are at various distinct steps and stages of practicing a Sikh life. Among the Sikhs they will be known as Sehaj-dhari if they have not yet taken to carrying the five Sikh Ks, all in an un-tampered form. The problem is that some of our scholars and leader have labeled them mistakenly as apostates. Most of the recent scare is about them, rather than those who were once Amritdhari and have denounced its tenets since then. This is particularly true outside the Punjab state of India. Outside Punjab, there is a larger number of Amritdhari Sikhs now than at any other time of the Sikh history. In larger Gurdwara such as one in Vancouver, Yuba City, San Jose, Los Angeles, London, or New York, where there was no Amritdhari Sikh among the office bearers only a few years ago, the managing committees today consist almost totally of Amritdhari Sikhs. Similarly those who were born of Sikh parents but have yet not embraced Sikhism are increasingly claiming their allegiance to the Sikh community. Some time they are hooted upon but this is only a misguided attitude, the Sikh ethics do not permit this treatment of any one. In contrast, the frequency of those from other faiths who are attracted towards Sikhism from time to time has been decreasing steadily. This should be the real concern of those who wish to play a part in propagating their faith in the 21st century. 
All those who are in the pipeline for becoming an Amritdhari Sikh, but have not done so yet, are certainly Sikhs but in no way apostate no matter how far they are from committing themselves to an Amritdhari life. It is fruitless to call them apostates because such an attitude from our religious elite comes in their way of progressing towards their cherished goal of being a Sikh. In the way of their commitment they continuously and publicly announce to believe in Sikh tenets exactly as required of them by the presently promoted Sikh Rehat Maryada (see the definition of a Sikh in SGPC Rehat Maryada). This should be continuously encouraged. To be intolerant towards them is going against the lofty traditions promoted by the Gurus and to continue to do so will be against the Guru’s teachings in word and essence. Pronouncing them to be apostate or inferior akin to untouchables only exhibit arrogance and intolerance on the part of those who are self professed guardians of the faith. It only shows that such a Sikh does not pay attention to many of the Guru’s commandments of tolerance and eradication of prejudices, does not see God in every one or show love and compassion towards those who take first step towards the faith. They fail to realize that the Guru promised to come thousands of steps to embrace them. 
To be militant, hateful or abusive of a person, who has yet not met all the commitments of a fully knighted Amritdhari life, is a disservice to the faith. It is a disservice because this attitude will be counter-productive in the end. It has a potential of repelling a would-be convert who may even start to treat with contempt of a faith that is perceived as insecure enough to need such tactics. Rather, efforts are needed to welcome more of such aspiring Sikhs. We must welcome them in the kinship and provide support to their soul. They will need our support and encouragement so that they can fight many other cognitive, intellectual and political obstacles. They are going to face numerous obstacles and pressures by discarding the faith they once practiced or the one they were born in and began inching forward towards their new faith, the Gurmat. The Guru will bless those who assist the Sikh aspirants. This way the Sikhs become tool of the Guru’s mission and work towards its expansion in times to come. 


Gurbaksh Singh, PhD
Harbans Lal, PhD
__________________
(Bhai) Harbans Lal


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## devinesanative (Jan 7, 2006)

According to Defensive Attitude Which is inherent in Human beings . We call the others with imperfections as patit because we want to defend  the religion , beliefs etc .

All are patit coz ,

1. Every one Breaks the Intregrity
2. No Belief in what is preached and what is practised.
3. Scarcity Mentality
4. Immaturity

According to the Non-Defensive Attitudue , as per the SGGS .

"Hum nahin Change , Bura Nahin Hoi"

Then No one is Patit .

Why this line is practised Selectively ?

"Hum nahin Change , Bura Nahin Hoi"


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