# Sikhism And Feelings Of Bliss



## Harry Haller (Jul 11, 2011)

Gurfatehji, 

I watched the youtube video on the 'drinking' thread kindly provided by soul jyotji. Unfortunately, I got as far as 'we are all supposed to be without humour and very serious' bit when my computer crashed, but luckily I did found more. 

It confirmed something I was aware of, that the feeling you have when you drink, is dwarfed by feelings of bliss in your love of god. 

What I want to know is, can anyone, hand on heart, say that they have experienced these feelings of bliss through waheguru?, I would be most interested to know what this feeling is like, 

I read a lot of people talk of the love of god, with such feeling, that I feel I must be missing out somewhere, for some, I get the feeling its a bit like the emperors new clothes, but others, Ishnaji, Bhagatsinghji, Ambersariaji (no, not you sinnerji :grinningsingh, SPNadminji, and findingmywayji to name but a few, speak of the love with real real conviction, like it was the most important feeling in the world.,

Today I had to go and see a christian minister, a lady, very charming, very polite, I asked her whom she loved most, jesus or her husband, she replied that was unfair question, I then asked whether she felt the bliss in her life, she answered that sometimes in the morning she felt at peace, yes, I kept on, but what about the bliss!!, she said sometimes she felt happy, and at times a feeling that could be called bliss. Thinking about it, most granthi's look fairly miserable, I don't think I have seen one peacefully at bliss..

So fellow sikhs, please tell me, in frank language, what this bliss feels like, not what it should feel like, but exactly what it feels like, if you feel it

thank you


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## Ishna (Jul 11, 2011)

Great question Harry ji!!  I'm sure you've felt it, or something like it, cos you have the itch!!  peacesignkaur

Way past bed time but super quickly... this is a hard question because it's very subjective - is what one person feels the same as what someone else feels?  And our only point of reference to describe these feelings is also subjective!

I would say I have three main states of being these days:

1) the worst state is feeling no connection.  Drives me mad, makes me feel adrift, I can't focus, can't find peace in ANYTHING.
2) the second feeling is my primary state these days but I'm still working out the bugs... it's a feeling within my body which is... inspiring... I wouldn't call it peaceful as such it's more like a warmth... like having a blanket on the inside... (maybe I have a fever? haha)... it's like knowing someone's got you covered, got your back, is looking out for you... it's a comfort... a contented state... a satisfaction... I haven't mastered the art of staying in this state, but sometimes it's very profound, like when I lost my father-in-law just over a year ago... part of me (the smaller part?) was upset and grieving for the loss but the overwhelming feeling was of this stability and warmth.  Part of me said "are you heartless??" but no, I could feel the heart part, but the warm part was bigger.  On the flip side, certain little things will tip me right back to mode 1, like reading about violence against women, or screwing up a job my boss gave me (I have a real nice boss... it would be easier to screw up if he was nasty!).

3) this is the bliss snap-shots.  They don't last very long.  The longest they last is a few moments at best when I'm totally engrossed in some Gurbani, or a moment is just right, like when you catch a sunset and you realise how small you are in the universe....  When the Gurbani just strikes those major chords inside and everything is crystal clear for an instant and you feel like you could just explode with love and expansion and clarity and awesomeness.  I never got this feeling when intoxicated.  I wish it would last longer!!

But you have to be careful you don't set yourself up with expectations... the bliss can't become the goal, you can't feel disappointed or as if you've failed if you don't get that feeling, because that's not the point.  You've just got to, I dunno, try your darndest at doing what you think is right and hoping for the best... saying "okay Guruji, show me the way" and look out for the signs.  Maybe the contented feelings are the markers along the way???

Sorry this is a bit rambly, it's hard to describe because it's so subjective.  And it could just be regular workings of a human mind, I dunno.  But I feel like I'm on the right track so I stick with it.

Can't wait to hear other people's experiences!!!  icecreamkudi


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## Harry Haller (Jul 11, 2011)

Ishnabhenji, 

I can discourse till the cows come home on philosophy, the need for long hair, even alcohol with some conviction, but the feelings of love for god, thats a hard one, I am afraid to my shame, I have not even listened to the shabads you kindly sent the link to, I find it hard to listen to shabads with my mum, she is so enthusiastic, ah this bits great, listen to this, she will say, and I just cannot feel it. 

I can relate to the warmth of someone watching over me, but only to the point where it all comes crashing down around me, and I realise I was just being complacent 

The truth is, 15 years ago, I had rather a bad experience, a sort of life changing, well almost life ending experience, and since then, my ability to 'feel' is lost, almost to the point, where I am actually not sure what love  is. I feel that the world is a magic theatre and we are all just playing roles assigned to us, 


Ishnaji, bliss is not my goal, but I am finding myself more and more contented along the way, so we will have to see what happens , thank you bhenji


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jul 11, 2011)

Veera 
Many people feel different things, it is hard for me to understand the 'bliss' another person feels, I suspect it is very personal,Absolute bliss is rare to find ,to describe my  'bliss' would be of no benefit to you and in any case how would you  know what I call 'bliss' is what you mean by the word.Although I was excluded in the 'bliss' feelers may I say even when I'm tipsy ,I know that it must be gained through the Word, or else what is the Word for?
 Before my sinner status had been reached, I think it was when I was around twenty years of age my father gave me an English translation of the entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ,it was in 4 parts .As my faith was new I started reading it with avidity.
Slowly I managed to read it line by line in Punjabi and then in English to make sure I understood it ,those were my keshdari days, and on reflection although it has taken me another nineteen years to start a full reading again (with the aid of the internet)I can say the closest you will get to what you want to feel is through Gods Word.     

  Shabad is the way, but you must let it penetrate your inner mind ,then you won't remain the same person ,true understanding is hard too! 
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/S7KHp73r4-s" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="349" width="425"></iframe>


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 11, 2011)

Harry Haller ji,

I *just* stumbled upon this. Watch this video 

very 


very 


carefully. 


These words are the wisdom of ancient spiritual texts. 
YouTube        - ‪Spiritual Experiences‬&rlm;


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## Ishna (Jul 11, 2011)

Harry Bhaji

On the other side of sleep and have to run off to work now!

This is a little off-topic but could you perhaps have something like a post-traumatic stress disorder?  You might want to see a psychologist and talk through the incident and that you feel you don't have any feelings anymore.  A psychologist might be able to give you more personalised tools for introspection and bring your feelings back.

When I read that you haven't listened to the shabads yet, what jumps out at me is that perhaps you don't want to listen to them because you don't want to be disappointed and find it doesn't fill you with anything?  It can be much easier to talk about religion and lifestyles without actually living them, and this is especially true when there is a fear of doing the living part.

My recommendation would be to put down the more traditional aspects of Sikhi (ie. the kirtan, the simran) and start reading SGGS yourself.  Just start reading it, don't try to analyse it, just try to read it with a broad mind so you don't get stuck on one little word here or there which seems out of place, or a description you don't jive with.  Read it and hopefully somewhere in those 1429 pages you'll find a shabad, a pauri, a tuk which gives you a glimmer of clarity.

Try approaching Sikhi from a new angle, not from your mum's angle.  The kirten, the simran, that can all come later.  You need to lay some foundations I think, construct some pillars you can return to.

For me pesonally, when I get confused, fed-up with religion and totally disconnected from Waheguru, when I can't read my nitnem because I feel too angry, I just focus on the *fact* that Waheguru is the force which is all around and acknowledge it in my mind.  Waheguru will bring me back when it's time.

Have you taken that first step of acknowledgement?

Okay, now I'm late for work (again)!

Gurfatehjios  cheerleader

Ish


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## RamanS (Jul 11, 2011)

Sat Sri Akal Harryji,

I have had few brief blissful type of experiences in my life which I am grateful for. For some time I spent a lot of time trying to understand them and expecting another to come. I remember reading a psychology article which I thought gave a good description of spiritual experiences. It said a common thing experienced in these experiences is a sense of time experienced in terms of quality and not quantity, boundlessness, and transcendence. But these are just basic descriptions and each experience is different for each person. Nowadays, I feel content listening to and trying to focus my whole concentration on each word of the Shabad whether it is me reciting it or someone else. Who am I to say..maybe this feeling is bliss too. I think contentment is more important because if you are expecting bliss all the time you might overlook the everyday joys of life.

I recently came across this quote which I enjoyed because it reminded me of the simple and often overlooked pleasures of life. Hope you enjoy it too!

"When we say...that pleasure is the end and aim of life, we do not mean the pleasures of the prodigal or the pleasures of sensuality, as we are understood to do by some through ignorance, prejudice, or willful misrepresentation. By pleasure we mean the absence of pain in the body and of trouble in the soul. It is not by an unbroken succession of drinking bouts and of revelry, not by sexual lust, nor the enjoyment of fish and other delicacies of a luxurious table, which produce a pleasant life; it is sober reasoning, searching out the grounds of every choice and avoidance, and banishing those beliefs through which the greatest tumults take possession of the soul." ---Epicurus


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## ravneet_sb (Jul 12, 2011)

There are bliss situation expereinced

First when our 
Surat (Imaginative Mind) gets attached to Guru's Bani

Second
When there is metaphysical balance
What we think that we can phsically achieve.

If we physically can not achieve, lets think less.
Or If one  Think's  than Do Physical Effort to resolve one's own thoughts

Third
When Mind Soul and Body is in in straight line. 
What we think, we speak and act same.


If one can realise this in his own life, 
one can share his or her experience.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2011)

IshnaBhenji, 

0 Just to clarify, what happened 15 years ago, if I were to analyse it, rid me off a lot of negative pulls and urges that left me empty and without feeling, only because all I knew at that time was the joys and pleasures the five thieves brought. Today, I feel content, optimistic and incredibly lucky!, but every now and then I think back to those days, youth, the future ahead, and the incredible highs, which, although I do not yearn for the same experiences again, to know that high exists in the relationship with the creator, would be something. I don't especially even want to experience it per se, I believe to focus on that, and that alone, would mean I have learned nothing. But as a side product to the main journey, yes, that would be something interesting. you are also correct, I do not listen because I do not wish to be disappointed, and yes, I am trying to lay foundations at this very moment, something will happen this week that will strengthen these foundations, thank you for your insight

Gurfatehji

I have to quickly write this post, before I forget the chat I had with my wife at 5am this morning, and then I am going to play everyone's videos, and try and learn something!

My wife is now normally awake at 5am, as she knows it is when I seem to wake up, standing at the top of the stairs, I noticed Virgil the cat racing up at about 100mph, with a frantic look on his face, I looked down to my feet, Alfie and Dan were shuffling around, I wondered who was chasing him, Virgil came to the top of the stairs, saw Dan, and without any change in speed, did a perfect u turn and ran down, with the same frantic look on his face. Dan looked up at me, 'he is a crazy cat' he seemed to say. Poor Virgil, it is his dearest wish to spend more time in the hallowed bedroom, I think he must have thought he would just go for it.

I spoke to my wife of the bliss of knowing god, maybe it does not exist, I mused, I said to my wife, that if I knew of this bliss, I do not think I would know of anger, or lust , or any of the five thieves, I would not drink, I would keep my hair,. why? she asked, not because of the bliss, but because I would be at peace, and I would know that finally, it did exist, and I could stop searching. There is nothing as disappointing for me than meeting someone who maintains they have found gods bliss and peace, and I see them in a moment of anger, maybe my expectations are too high, but I regard people who have found the 'way' through whatever path, extremely highly. We moved on to the topics of shabads, my wife is not a religious person, although highly spiritual, she stroked my cheek, and very tenderly said, 'you know those 3d pictures, the ones you have to squint and go cross eyed to look at, and then one day, you see the magnificent 3d image that everyone has seen but you, well, you just have to be in the right place to see it, but once you've seen it, you will always see it', instead of a nurse for the terminally ill, my wife could have been a preacher I think, but as always, she see's these insights as common sense and normal, 

We moved on to the discussion of knowing the creator within, I put forward the thought that you can never love and find that god within until you truly know yourself, and accept who you are. I now know that behind the boozing, drugs, and women, is a harry that cannot be defined by those actions, I feel I am getting closer to who I really am., which brings up another valid point, what, said my wife, about paedophiles, how can they love themselves, how can they accept themselves. How can life be anything other than one hard battle for them,should we feel sorry for them, as they have been given a hand that can never be converted to anything other than pain and misery, never mind the pain and misery caused to others. This leads me to believe that certain people are unredeemable, these are the people possibly that Guruji talked about as enemies, the ones that should die painfully, be smitten, be destroyed, the unredeemers, those are the ones that will never know bliss, but for the rest of us.................maybe, we are certainly qualified for it in the sense that we are redeemable


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## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2011)

Sinnerji, 

I have started reading the english translation of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, there are times I feel the words do not flow as well as they do in punjabi. I can read and understand punjabi, I think it would be better for me to brush up on my punjabi than find a good translation!

Thanks for the link, yes, 90 mins long, thank you very much, nothing like starting off slowly eh brother, I will have to listen to the whole later, but , I have to concede that from the small amount I watched, the singer, and most of the people around him, seem to be in bliss, so that is a good starting point, the music is hypnotic and soothing, thank you


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## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2011)

BhagatSinghji, 

AND THEN GOD JUST SITS IN YOUR LAP AND SAYS, DO YOU WANT A GRAPE!!!!!!!!

brilliant! quite brilliant! now this chap, yes, he has found bliss, and his words, inspiring and poetic, thank you

Ramanji, your quote validates me, thank you very much, 
Ravneetji, to me, what you have said only confirms that in order to find the creator, we need to find ourselves


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## passingby (Jul 12, 2011)

I 'feel' like answering straight and honestly to this. Here goes:

I shall start off with Gurbani line "Ko virla gurmat challai jeo". 

When I was young I used to think and expect that in Sikh circles (especially in the jattha I was associating with ) people with real spiritual experiences would exist and could be met easily. Later on as I matured I realized it was not so. It is rare, very rare, in fact I dare say it is rarest of rare, to meet a person who has attained a high spiritual state in which he or she exists on a higher blissful plane on a daily basis. Most of the people, when they say 'anand aa gya' are actually confusing natural normal feelings of the mind with spiritual feelings. If you have experienced different types of physical exercise you'd know that you can get feelings of exaltation, purity, peace and even so called 'bliss' through various physical activities like jogging, weight training (after a workout that went exceptionally well), football (when you are completely drenched out with sweat and you fall down on the ground) and stretching like yogasanas etc. 

At a personal level I treat Gurbani not as a text of Sikhism but as a testimony and a communication about a higher existence given by certain unique and exceptional individuals. So when I read a quote like this:



> ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਮੁਦ੍ਰਾ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਮਤਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰੀ ॥
> ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੁ ਸਮਝ ਪਰੀ ॥
> ਖਿੰਥਾ ਝੋਲੀ ਭਰਿਪੁਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾਰੈ ਏਕੁ ਹਰੀ ॥
> ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੀ ਨਾਈ ਪਰਖੈ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਖਰੀ ॥੧੦॥


 the last line holds a special appeal to me. I see a challenge in it. I can not only understand the literal and superficial meaning of the last line but I also see the idiomatic and deeper meaning. And that pulls my heart. 

So I don't care if I cannot find anybody who has found bliss or attained a higher state. Why? Cos I truly believe that only rarest or rare minds, who plunge deep into it without restraint, for whom finding the ultimate truth is the only important and worthy thing in life would be able to experience something which is beyond the normal perception. 

Spirituality is usually said to beyond mind and mental experiences, yet make no mistake that it cannot occur or 'descend' without a corresponding psychological mutation. And I believe (again this is a personal belief, I might be wrong) that for such a psychological mutation to occur there has to be a process in place which is much much above, higher or stronger than anything ordinary. If it were to be measured practically I would expect it to be AT LEAST this much that repetition of NAAM should be/would be going on incessantly in the deepest recess of mind 24/7. The whole mind, down to its deepest darkest and most unknowable layer would be reverberating with sound of NAAM. When such a state occurs I would expect a real divine change to occur, as promised by Gurbani. And that state is no ordinary state. Anything short of it is cheap. Do not get deceived by it.
Finally there is only one way to find out whether what Gurbani promises is do-able, experience-able and that is by trying it out on one's own. 

As Vivekananda said, 'Arise, awake and stop not till the goal is reached'.

I am tempted here to talk about Sri Ramakrishna but then it would be digressing a lot.

Disclaimer: I have never experienced any high or above-ordinary feeling. My spiritual practice is much below average (honestly speaking) and therefore I do not even expect such feelings. I don't want to make the mistake of expecting more than what I deserve. As Gurbani says, 'Seva Thori Maangan Bahuta...'


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## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2011)

passinbyji, 

Just to clarify, I am not really talking at this stage about complete bliss, complete union with the creator, just the sort of look and feeling that the people had in Sinnerji's post, the sort of look my mother has, when she cries at shabads, and shakes her head, and says 'waheguru  is so beautiful', the chap from Bhagatji's post, in his eyes, yes you could see hmmm, thinking about it, is it possible I am confusing bliss with contentment. But then thinking about it, if all our perceptions are different, what I am calling bliss, another could call contentment, surely contentment is the first step to bliss, I would settle for contentment japposatnamwaheguru:


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 12, 2011)

harry haller said:


> passinbyji,
> 
> Just to clarify, I am not really talking at this stage about complete bliss, complete union with the creator, just the sort of look and feeling that the people had in Sinnerji's post, the sort of look my mother has, when she cries at shabads, and shakes her head, and says 'waheguru  is so beautiful', the chap from Bhagatji's post, in his eyes, yes you could see hmmm, thinking about it, is it possible I am confusing bliss with contentment. But then thinking about it, if all our perceptions are different, what I am calling bliss, another could call contentment, surely contentment is the first step to bliss, I would settle for contentment japposatnamwaheguru:


Harry Haller ji perhaps we should at least crudely define bliss and levels or degrees of the same,



> Bliss Events
> www.blissevents.ca/ - Cached
> Toronto wedding coordination, corporate events, wedding planner, wedding flowers, wedding photography services, event coordination.
> 
> ...




Beyond perhaps the above little flippant but in a way real, there must be something in the above as saliva starts to flow as I read descriptions  

Personal degrees of Bliss:


Where nothing matters and you are comfortable and numbed by a feeling of comfort in full recognition of what ever you are surrounded by or doing.
You see or do something and you are in a flash bliss state or "LaLa land".
Understanding the creator and creation you are in synergy and peace with everything, you don't want to change anything, that is bliss.
One certaily can visually observe bliss in others whether they think they are in or feel the bliss or not lol.  For example I see some of the spners in a blissful state while posting sometimes and more than me.

Here is a positive feedback we can provide to each other and rank the degree of bliss you find others in.  The rating is no bliss (1) to maximum bliss (10).

Some of my friends I rank as follows,



spnadmin ji  (7)
Aman Singh ji    (7.5)
Sinner ji       (7.9)
Harry Haller ji  (8.01)
Ishna ji   (was at 5 not too long ago but fast moving towards 8) mundahug
Confused ji   (8.3)
Bhagat Singh ji   (7.75)
Now if you want to improve your bliss index with me, say thank you more often lol

Just some thoughts.

For me greatest bliss I have felt lately is translating Shabads by reviewing the existing translation by Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji, reviewing it in reference to Prof. Sahib Singh ji's Guru Granth Darpan (Teeka) and creating and writing down my understanding for sharing with spners.

Sat Sri Akal.​


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## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2011)

Ambersariaji, 

Your post tied in with a thought I was having not 2 mins ago, something along the lines of we do not know how lucky we are, I recall a post I read when I first came to this forum,it was from a singh suffering a wasting disease, he was in constant pain, he wanted to die, but the thing that vexed him so much, and i have tears in my eyes as I write this, was that he found he could not concentrate hard enough to do simran, and this was the only thing he wanted to do , yet here I am, alive, reasonably healthy, a wife, stepson, animals, parents, people whom I have never even met, reaching out to help me, your post has humbled me somewhat, thank you


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 12, 2011)

I noticed how there is another decimal point with regards to my rating. I wonder what that means...

BTW I think your bliss index might be shifted towards the 10. I would place the Gurus, Saints, Prophets and Avtars where you have placed us. We would all be much lower.

10 would be death  there is only lala land at this point


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 12, 2011)

> Most of the people, when they say 'anand aa gya' are actually confusing  natural normal feelings of the mind with spiritual feelings.


Seconded


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 12, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> I noticed how there is another decimal point with regards to my rating. I wonder what that means...
> 
> BTW I think your bliss index might be shifted towards the 10. I would place the Gurus, Saints, Prophets and Avtars where you have placed us. We would all be much lower.
> 
> 10 would be death  there is only lala land at this point


Bhagat Singh ji I believe we need to apply the Bell curve once the sample is large with 5 as a mean.  So yes it is little on the high side.  Gurus would be approaching 10 if not at 10.  But that is absolutely not for me to say.

In terms of the extra decimal, thanks for noticing, this is a reflection of my understanding/appreciation of a bright young man that needs to be distinct and has shown to be so.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2011)

Ambersariaji, 

thank you


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## P0TTER (Jul 12, 2011)

Sadly that link does not work. Are others experiencing problems accessing it too?


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## P0TTER (Jul 12, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Gurfatehji,
> 
> I watched the youtube video on the 'drinking' thread kindly provided by soul jyotji. Unfortunately, I got as far as 'we are all supposed to be without humour and very serious' bit when my computer crashed, but luckily I did found more.
> 
> ...


This is a very interesting subject - BLISS
There have been several times in my life where I have experienced a comforting feeling of bliss. One recent one was when my fourth granddaughter was born...
I had a phone call from my son David at 5.20am to say that he had just delivered their beautiful baby girl himself on the bathroom floor! ...The birth was so quick there was no time to get in the car & go to the hospital as planned... Baby Kitty arrived within minutes of my daughter-in-law waking up to go to the bathroom and mother & baby were both fine! 
During the birth David rang 999 and was talked through it. 
About 5 minutes after the birth the paramedics arrived, then soon after that, the midwife. David even cut the cord and when I arrived at about 5.40am there was such a sense of peace and calm with everyone smiling and so happy. 
The midwife then weighed Kitty and she was 6lb 5 1/2oz. Then she gave the Vitimin K injection and this was the first and only time I heard Kitty cry. 
As I held her shortly afterwards, Kitty was making calm sighing noises and didn`t look like a newborn baby - she looked so peaceful and beautiful. 
The whole house was full of a sense of BLISS!
Kitty's older brother Ted age 5 & sister Jessie age 4 were fascinated and my son David took some photographs as Ted, then Jessie, held their baby sister for the first time... and shortly afterwards he took some more, as we saw Kitty open her eyes for the first time - she was immediately placed in her mother`s arms and she went on to inquisitively look around at us all. 
Then shortly after that Baby Kitty had her first feed and as she slept afterwards I decided it was time to go and leave them all to rest. 
I`m just back home now at 11am, with precious memories that I will always treasure, of a morning that was such a wonderfully calm, unique and beautiful family occasion. 
I am a Christian, so I don't know if you will be interested in my answer, as I notice the question was specifically...
What I want to know is, can anyone, hand on heart, say that they have experienced these feelings of bliss through waheguru? 
I don't know what waheguru is, but I sure know what BLISS is and we all felt it that day.


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## P0TTER (Jul 12, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Gurfatehji,
> 
> I watched the youtube video on the 'drinking' thread kindly provided by soul jyotji. Unfortunately, I got as far as 'we are all supposed to be without humour and very serious' bit when my computer crashed, but luckily I did found more.
> 
> ...


Well I don't know where my last reply went to... in it I explained the immense feelings of BLISS that were experienced on the day that my last grandchild was born at home by all present in the house.
I just wanted to add that I think that bliss has much to do with how we feel at times of birth and spiritual rebirth... when we sense God's Presence in our lives... as if for the first time again.
A sense of acceptance and such a purity of Love from the One who created all things makes all things new... Light eliminates our darkness and makes us feel brand new again... That is Bliss!


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## pamma (Jul 12, 2011)

This feeling of bliss related with God's love changes with experiences. Earlier I was very religious but today I feel spirituality is the way to God. Once you can start feeling that- He is with me everywhere like a true friend, you can start feeling that bliss.
         Remember a true friend does not flatter, he does not accept all what you wish to do, rather he tells you where you are wrong. God does the same. just ponder over your life and realize that he does punish us when we are wrong and rewards us when we are right. Once you learn to accept this. you can feel Him within you and that gives me the feeling of bliss. This takes a long time but once you can feel it, it's heavenly and life becomes easier.
    Regarding granthis, well remember its not the love of God that keeps them there, it's a means to earn their living and like us they too have families and their needs. Why do we expect them to be always religious? In India if you could see the condition how most of them have to live in, it would put us all, to shame.
    Feel the bliss by wiping a distressed person's tears, by feeding a hungry man, by educating a less fortunate one. Don't do daan for your name to be called out in the Ardaas or for it to be inscribed on a marble slab, do daan to help God,s children. If you are able to do so feel yourself lucky coz God doesn't come down to help but he chooses from among us to do little deeds of kindness and once you find yourself where you can put up your hand and volunteer to be chosen, you will feel the bliss. 
       I can go on and on but time restricts me.Wahe Guruji Ka Khalsa Waheguruji ki Fateh!


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 12, 2011)

Potter ji so well written.  I restate what you said below so succinctly,



> I just wanted to add that I think that bliss has much to do with how we  feel at times of birth and spiritual rebirth... when we sense God's  Presence in our lives... as if for the first time again.
> A sense of acceptance and such a purity of Love from the One who created  all things makes all things new... Light eliminates our darkness and  makes us feel brand new again... That is Bliss!
> 
> _This is much like the feeling one gets in Sikhism when we follow our Guru's teachings and understand Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.  Our gurus teach us to understand creator and creation with emphasis on developing of such and not the identification of the same in a form, a person, an idol, but in the totality of creation._
> ...



Each one of course can have blissful incidents to remeber, flashes to enjoy, and so on, that is the beauty of life.

Sat Sri Akal.  mundahug


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## Original (Jul 12, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Sinnerji,
> 
> I have started reading the english translation of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, there are times I feel the words do not flow as well as they do in punjabi. I can read and understand punjabi, I think it would be better for me to brush up on my punjabi than find a good translation!
> 
> Thanks for the link, yes, 90 mins long, thank you very much, nothing like starting off slowly eh brother, I will have to listen to the whole later, but , I have to concede that from the small amount I watched, the singer, and most of the people around him, seem to be in bliss, so that is a good starting point, the music is hypnotic and soothing, thank you


 
Dear Harry

An interesting read, I must say !

Whatever you do, enjoy doing it. Happiness is a state of being, a destination - the "moments" of joy along the road to happiness is what constitutes happiness.

Don't worry about leading a virtueous life if you had'nt had the calling yet. Wait till you get the calling to live a virtueous life. Waheguru will find you when you are ready to tune into and connect to the ever flowing harmony of the "shabad".

Gurbani places lot of emphasis on the "inner" self. When your life is an expression of the inner state of being, i.e "anand" (happy/joy), you feel a sense of connection to the creative power of the universe. Being happy for a reason is temporary because the reason could be taken away from you at anytime, being happy without a reason is permanent "bliss" - like Guru Amardas Ji puts it - "anand paya meri maya, satguru main paya..." the satguru he relates is the "shabad".

Try falling in "love" with yourown self if you can't find another to experience the the bliss that Gurbani speaks of - "jin prem kiya tin hi prabu pa oah" Guru Gobind.

My brother, if you for the time are enjoying the fruits of this physical world so be it. The Guru will find you and give you the ears and the intellect to tune into that mystical experience that you long for. For the time being enjoy therefore knowing that the "house of Guru Nanak finds all those who seek.

Take care -


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jul 12, 2011)

Harry Veera

To tell you the truth I never listened to more than two minutes of the link , it's his engagement I liked ,just understand that one line and believe it!

I just play the first two minutes over and over again !

Ambarsaria Veera
Thanks for rating me so highly lol
Bhagat Veera
The bliss 'rate' of those you mention is off the scale !


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 12, 2011)

Sinner said:


> Harry Veera
> 
> To tell you the truth I never listened to more than two minutes of the link , it's his engagement I liked ,just understand that one line and believe it!
> 
> ...


Sinner ji now now!  I listened to the video for 34+ minutes and tried to decipher every shabad they sing.  Then I cut and paste those shabads for review.  I was planning to do the remaining hour too but it was taking lot of time.  I think there will be bliss in it if I do it.  What you think?

Any interest.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2011)

Phew, lots of material, and every posting stand up on its own, I am indeed fortunate to call on such a vast bank of knowledge and information here.

Ok, I the opinion I am forming now is that the ultimate bliss IS there, but you are called to it when the creator feels you are ready, until then we have a duty to our families, friends (err ok thats a tricky one, none left!), and more importantly people we interact with on a daily basis. I have decided to take Guru Nanakji as  role model, I decided that some time back, that decision surprises even me, with all the bloodlust within, and the fighting spirit, I would have thought Guru Gobindji would have been more appropriate, but the truth is, I don't wish to fight evil, but I have always had a soft spot for helping where I can, and so has my wife, so that is a path we can walk down together. I find myself asking in every situation, What would Guruji do in this instance. 

I thought I was doing well until my mother rang me, she mentioned a young chap who has some shabads on youtube, very sad story, I didnt get his name, but he passed on in an accident in Malaysia, mother mentioned that she had just seen him singing a shabad and that she and dad broke down in tears of emotion as it was so beautiful, (here we go again!), it drives me to a question I posed when I first found this forum, maybe some people are sent here to be warriors, some to be enchanted, some to do sewa, maybe we each have our own calling to use our skills in the house of the almighty. 

I feel I should get one of those self help books about falling in love, so that I may try and see the relationship with the almighty in a different prospective, some in this thread describe him as a friend, a father, some talk of the beauty of his love, some of the power of him looking over, everyone seems to have a slightly different relationship with the creator, I suppose its possible that my parents bliss is similar to my satisfaction at giving a cripple a short lift to the shops, I stopped writing for a while and thought of the cripple, a young man, he was hobbling across the road in front of me, I waved him into the car, amid the mess of monitor cables and motherboards, he sat down, Im just sitting here thinking of his face, it was the face of god. Im actually sitting here in goosepimples and I feel a strong sense of shame , he was cheerful with his lot, explained what the doctors were doing and sighed that the movements tired him out, and here is me able bodied, and moaning about my lack of bliss.  And now the burning question, would I prefer the bliss that my parents feel when they listen to shabads, or the knowledge that I saw god today and helped him to the shop. I don't feel particularly pleased about it, I won't mention it to my wife, as there seems to be something dirty about telling someone else, although in this context, here it is relevant, I feel a fraud looking for bliss in shabads, its the same reason I refuse, still to pray. If my car was about to hit a tree, the last thing I would do is pray, surely the almighty if he intends to assist me is going to do it regardless, in fact its a bit of insult to god to ask him to save you, oh Im glad you asked, I was going to do something else in the next 10 seconds, but now youve asked so nicely, I'll see what I can about that tree. 

Ambersariaji was correct, I am in bliss already, I just don't know it


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 12, 2011)

YouTube        - ‪saif ulmalook‬‏





YouTube        - ‪Mubarak Ali-Fateh Ali -  Bulleh Shah - Ilmon Bus Karin O Yar‬‏

Bliss pervades everywhere and in all in different expressions and experiences.

What a world.

Sat Sri Akal.



‬‏


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 12, 2011)

> Ambersariaji was correct, I am in bliss already, I just don't know it


Lol but so true

There is a story I heard about Bhagat Kabir talking to a fish. The fish cries and says to Kabir "I am thirsty".
Kabir laughs and says "how can you be thirsty, you live in water. Even to cry would require that you have water." He goes on to say "In the ocean of love, man cries out that he suffers."

Ok I could have told it better...


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jul 12, 2011)

Ambarsaria Veera

Sorry I did not know how to cut and paste a smaller section,I never have enough patience to listen for all that long but not out of disrespect there is a more profound reason.

You know the whole essence is in the mool mantar ,Japji Sahib expounds that ,and the whole expounds Japji, so why would you decipher each shabad, when it's all contained in 'Ik Onkaar'?


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## Ishna (Jul 12, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji, good to know I'm on the up-and-up!  mundahug



harry haller said:


> ... I suppose its possible that my parents bliss is similar to my satisfaction at giving a cripple a short lift to the shops, I stopped writing for a while and thought of the cripple, a young man, he was hobbling across the road in front of me, I waved him into the car, amid the mess of monitor cables and motherboards, he sat down, Im just sitting here thinking of his face, it was the face of god. Im actually sitting here in goosepimples and I feel a strong sense of shame , he was cheerful with his lot, explained what the doctors were doing and sighed that the movements tired him out, and here is me able bodied, and moaning about my lack of bliss. And now the burning question, would I prefer the bliss that my parents feel when they listen to shabads, or the knowledge that I saw god today and helped him to the shop. I don't feel particularly pleased about it, I won't mention it to my wife, as there seems to be something dirty about telling someone else, although in this context, here it is relevant, I feel a fraud looking for bliss in shabads, its the same reason I refuse, still to pray. If my car was about to hit a tree, the last thing I would do is pray, surely the almighty if he intends to assist me is going to do it regardless, in fact its a bit of insult to god to ask him to save you, oh Im glad you asked, I was going to do something else in the next 10 seconds, but now youve asked so nicely, I'll see what I can about that tree.


 
Harry, brother

I can totally relate to your feeling of shame.  I feel that shame too, when I feel the comfort and bliss from reading Gurbani, and then I read about the horrors in the world, and I feel ashamed for FEELING the bliss in the first place.

"How can I feel bliss when someone else is suffering, that doesn't seem fair!" is usually where I get stuck.  I look at my husband suffering over such manmukh issues and end up saying I wish I could take some of the peace out of me and put it into him.

But everyone has their own lot, we are all under hukam.  I think you're heading in the right direction, Harry ji.  Your mind is pondering the right topics, I think.

And if your car is about to hit a tree, prayer won't save you anyway.  Prayer shouldn't be about asking for things (as much as people seem to think it is).  Prayer should be about introspection.  If you're going to hit the tree, it's hukam that you hit the tree, and the trick would be in accepting it gratefully.  If it's not hukam, it won't happen.  That is my possibly flawed understanding, anyway.

So don't put pressure on yourself to pray.  Just be, and observe, and read, and try to be receptive to the suggestions of the universe.

Okay, lunch break over, back into it then!


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 12, 2011)

Ishna ji just some comments below on part of your well written post,


> And if your car is about to hit a tree, prayer won't save you anyway.   Prayer shouldn't be about asking for things (as much as people seem to  think it is).  Prayer should be about introspection.  If you're going to  hit the tree, it's hukam that you hit the tree, and the trick would be  in accepting it gratefully.  If it's not hukam, it won't happen.  That  is my possibly flawed understanding, anyway.
> 
> _I have been thinking of starting a new thread on the business of Hukam in our activities.  The essence is that we live in ever changing mosaic of creation.  Creator creates and basically sets us free knowing our limits.  Those limits are generic perhaps on a species basis and are impacted by the creation around us.
> 
> ...



Hopefully you brush after eating donuts, this is not the creator, just me saying as fellow member of the creation mosaic.  Lot of fun in creation!


Sat Sri Akal.



​


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 13, 2011)

The word Bliss has different meanings in different context.The word is basically a reference for
Enjoyment or gladness
Perfect Happiness or
State ofblessed.
In Sikh philosophy as per Gurbani the word bliss referes to perfect happiness or State of blessed.
The experience of perfect happiness can not be put in words.Only the person experiencing this knows what he is experiencing or many tmes he maynot be knowing but still he may be in a state of bliss.
In Gurbaani the bliss is beautifully mentond in Bani Ramkali M3 Anandu

"AAnandu  AAnandu  Sabhu Ko Kahae AAnandu GuRU Te Jaaneyaa"
So the bliss can be known from GuRU only.

Further Gurbani tells us about how to remain in the state of bliss all  the timesas

"Abinaasee Khem Chaahe Je Nanak Sadaa Simari Naarayan"  pp714SGGS

Abinaasee Khem.......unperishable bliss
Naarayan................GuR JoTi

Wordly enjoyment or happiness may be different for different persons but the State of bliss in Sikh philosophy is same for all Gursikhs.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Archived_member14 (Jul 13, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,


I avoided opening this particular thread but got a little curious last night and did so. I read Harry ji’s original post and this one by you. 




Ambarsaria said:


> Here is a positive feedback we can provide to each other and rank the degree of bliss you find others in.  The rating is no bliss (1) to maximum bliss (10).
> 
> Some of my friends I rank as follows,
> 
> ...



I think that you are only joking, but it has motivated me to write all the same. Because this is related to a comment I made to someone recently, who had suggested that the attainment of peace and happiness was his aim in life. So here I’d like to say the following:

The aim for peace / bliss / happiness is a very common amongst people of all religions. I however find it to be extremely misleading and inviting of delusion. Even the Dalai Lama talks about happiness a lot and this is in spite of the fact that the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths, and the first of this is Dukkha or Suffering. But of course the meaning of Dukkha here is not the unpleasant mental or bodily feelings nor the pleasant feeling that is liable to change, but in fact the characteristic nature of *all* conditioned phenomena. 

Of course this does not mean that one is encouraged to adopt a grim attitude towards life and that there won’t in fact be moments of happiness or even of bliss. Indeed, the detachment that comes with understanding is likely to lead to less agitation in life, hence more happiness. But it is pointing to the nature of happiness and bliss itself as having the characteristic nature of impermanence and insubstantiality (another translation of Dukkha).

Also the Buddha’s contemporaries, some of who became his disciples, were involved in meditation practices known as Jhana. These lead to experiences beyond that of the five senses and the happiness and rapture accompanying them are great beyond imagination. But the Buddha would point out that like all conditioned phenomena; these were to be understood as impermanent, insubstantial and non-self. And although he did also sometimes compare the happiness got as a result of these practices, as being of inferior in quality to that which came with the total eradication of craving and ignorance, the emphasis was always on the latter.  

A few years ago I was surprised and exited on hearing a remark made by my wife, that Sikh teachings emphasized “understanding”. I had thought till then, that only in Buddhism was it apparent that understanding is the only solution.  I am guessing therefore, that the interest in attaining bliss etc. is actually a case of value misplaced even for Sikhi. And I believe that if pursued, it likely will lead to what is akin to the “bliss of ignorance”, which I’m sure no one here wants to end up with. ;-)


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 13, 2011)

Confused ji, you see, all religions are pointing towards that which Buddhism is pointing towards.

interest in attaining bliss = interest in understanding = interest in merging with God = interest in realizing the true self , etc

understanding = bliss = merging = realization

Different words, yet they are all pointing towards the same.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 13, 2011)

Everytime I come back here, I find an abundance of words of wisdom ,I am clearly gifted to be in the presence of such higher thinking from a cross section of ages and cultures, I have yet to read a posting and not agree with it in some way shape or fashion, in fact, I have yet to read a posting without having picked up another nugget of information, or have it shine a light on a path that was previously hidden, christians, buddhists,sikhs, all of us working together to shed some light on the question, quite beautiful. 

I got home last night after reading a few posts, I was in some pain as my bypass scar has a tendency to swell right up with blood, after my wife had fished out an instrument of torture from her special bag and put on a fresh dressing, exhausted by the day and still in pain, I found I could not sleep. Although bliss itself was a brilliant concept, I have to admit that for the last 15 years I have been more dead than alive, like a leaf being blown about by the wind, I have no direction of my own, life blows me around and I deal with it, without any desire for any particular thing, other than the things of old, the things that I can put my hand on and say, oh yeah, that makes me happy, and they are mostly base. My mother rang me last night, I know she reads my postings, why do you keep mentioning lust and sex, she said, people will think your obsessed with lust, oh well if the cap fits... 

Here I am contemplating the lack of bliss on my life, and I cannot even see anything in my dogs eyes other than, he is a thing that I have to feed and walk. That is to be truly dead, when everything is base, these feelings go up and down, with the up being toleration. How pathetic  is that, the entire range of my feelings bounce between toleration and resentment. Soon everyone was asleep, but not me, the word kept going round in my head, consonance, consonance, I sat up in the moonlight my wife was asleep, a mass of red hair, she had always had very short red hair, but is determined to grow it out of  respect for my mother, and it is now quite long. She was cuddled into Dan, who in turn was looking at me. I looked back at him, and we stared at each other, why dont you love me, his eyes seemed to say, I do love, I thought, no you dont, you just pretend to make mum happy, so she does not realise how soulless you actually are, what about the bliss Dan?, Dad, he said with his eyes, the bliss is here, Mum is here, Alfie is here, look at us, do you not see bliss?, No I thought, I do not, then my dear father, if you cannot see what is in front of you, and it is here for sure, then you need glasses, and with that Dan closed his eyes, and fell asleep. 

Glasses enable you to see more clearly, a friend of mine had glasses recently, wow, he said, I could not believe what I have been missing, I can see things now,the world isnt a blurry image, glasses eh, I fell into a restless sleep, dreaming of the base, and then the pure, and then the base again, I eventually woke up exhausted at 4am, amrit vela, as I always do. Dan was awake, looking at me. Figured it out yet dad, his eyes said, yes, I said, the glasses are god given, accept his hukam, and watch how the world changes around you, marvel at what you can see that you could not see before, look at me dad, do i look different?, yes my love you do, and how do I look different?, I can see god in you , I thought, clearly, I looked at my wife, she opened her eyes after a while, and I could see god in her too, not the base, but purity, Alfie bounded over, can you see god in me too Dad, his eyes said, Yes, Alfie, yes, I can, at this point Virgil came upstairs, he can sense when everyone is awake, and desperately wants to be part of it, Dan bounced off the bed, and kissed him, he does that sometimes, Virgil looked at me, and I looked at Virgil, he really is a beautiful cat, his markings and his eyes, how could that not be god given, Virgil turned around so his tail was facing Dan, whose eyebrows shot up and then proceeded to bark and chase Virgil back down the stairs, and that my dear friends is consonance, and I am done with fighting it!

I would not say I am in bliss, but I have a feeling of safety and warmth and love, of course there are times when I will be base again, but just because a car can do 150MPH does not mean you have to drive it at 150MPH everytime you drive it, on the whole it can be driven carefully, with care and respect, but when driving conditions allow, you could have a little fun, just to remind yourself of the power and ability within it. 

I listen to a lot of music, and read a lot of books, music moves me, as do good books, to that end, not wanting to listen to shabads, or read huge chunks of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, is absolutely related to a desire to understand what I am listening to or reading, and that is what makes it beautiful, the understanding, cherishing the words, as I do when I listen to music now, the colour of spring, by talk talk, is an album that always makes me cry with feeling, it is not because I reject shabads, its because the words speak to my heart, I am determined to teach myself punjabi, it is the only real way to unlock the meaning behind those shabads.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 13, 2011)

sikhism and feelings of bliss, question answered, thank you all very much, and especially dan, photo taken this morning , caption, figured it out yet dad???


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 13, 2011)

HARRY Ji,
Your caption has really tempted to share views on the  question of BlissI feel all the creation of the Universe is in bliss except Human being .This is because the Creation is ignorant about the feelings of the bliss.But Human is looking for the bliss that can be put into words.Whereas the actual feelings of bliss are beyond the words.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jul 13, 2011)

Prakashji, 

You are so correct about being beyond words, I can eloquently talk about the pleasures of the base, and describe vividly the feelings associated with it, but holding my dog this morning after he had shown me the way, I can only describe as 'coming home', and even that does not do it justice, I now intend to concentrate on getting the best glasses I can instead of using blurred vision to define what is in front of me

Sat Sri Akal


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 13, 2011)

Bliss, when it enters into thoughts:

 "Look a.. a.. spoon!" :yippie:"it is so sacred, in all its spoon-ness":8-


(Mai ji where is that "tears of joy" smiley?)


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 13, 2011)

harry haller said:


> sikhism and feelings of bliss, question answered, thank you all very much, and especially dan, photo taken this morning , caption, figured it out yet dad???


Harry Haller ji why you started looking at bliss like me?  I thought that was my patent idea unless you happen to be my twin brother in spirit  :grinningsingh:

Everyone in this world, every creation has moments of bliss.  It is part of creation.  It is not exclusive to our Gurus or Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and you do not need a Guru to get it.

For Sikhs, you want to experience *more* Bliss, _you understand more of creation and the Creator with the help of our Gurus and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji__.  Basically we Sikhs are blessed to have been given tools of private tutoring for free!
_
I have moments of Bliss like flashes without looking for bliss as an objective in,


Looking at people
Listening to Shabads
Listening to Sufi music
Looking at animate and in-animate creation
Looking at Photographs
.....   Basically moments seem to happen when I drop the idea of looking and just be and sprinkle a bit of the understanding on the instance, _voila there is Bliss_
Now if you have fully understood, you could possibly be always in Bliss
_Note:__  Gurbani tells us we will never fully understand full creation, hence nobody has lived or will live who will be in a real state of bliss 24/7.  Some may pretend or look like they are.  Bliss will always be moments or periods and transient (as my brother Confused ji (wonderfully gifted to express very well) would use the word transient).
_

*



			Understanding creation is the catalyst for bliss.  The more you understand the more you will find moments of bliss without looking.  These will just happen!
		
Click to expand...

*​Sat Sri Akal.


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## Archived_member14 (Jul 13, 2011)

Bhagat ji,



> Confused ji, you see, all religions are pointing towards that which Buddhism is pointing towards.



I'm curious as to how you arrive at the conclusion. As I've said before, apart from the teachings on morality, I see little similarity even between any two religions which makes reference to the God concept. And Buddhism as you know does not have this particular belief. 

But don't worry; I'm not going to get into a debate about this. ;-)




> interest in attaining bliss = interest in understanding = interest in merging with God = interest in realizing the true self , etc




Not according to the Buddhism that I have come to understand.

Bliss is great happiness which comes down to mental pleasant feeling with perhaps an element of rapture, whereas understanding illuminates the object of experience by knowing its characteristics. These two are clearly very different realities and perform different functions.  Understanding is of two kinds, one which distinguishes between good and evil states knowing the value of one and the disadvantage of the other. The other is aimed at penetration of the intrinsic nature of conditioned phenomena.    

This latter is what Buddhism is about. The first kind of wisdom is geared towards rising above sense contacts to achieve high states of consciousness, which makes it still the stuff of continued existence. The other type in seeking to overcome ignorance is aimed at the ending of the cycle of birth and death. This means that although there is no ignorance arisen with any wholesome state, it however not only remains dormant, but even increases for those who develop the first kind of wisdom. And since the attachment dealt with is only in relation to sense pleasures, they'd continue to be driven by a â€œcraving for beingâ€. 

Now even these people, as they continue to develop their concentration, moving up the different stages of Jhana, never at any time aim to have bliss. Indeed they would have to at some point, rise above happiness and rapture in order that they experience even higher states, accordingly the  â€œsphere of infinite spaceâ€, â€œsphere of infinite consciousnessâ€, â€œsphere of no-thingnessâ€ and finally, the â€œsphere of neither perception nor non-perceptionâ€. Those who are stuck at the lower stages where bliss dominates, this is because they do not perceive the subtle attachment. This means that those who are able to progress, this is because they recognize the attachment that has arisen towards it.

Aiming at bliss then, can therefore only be the function of attachment. And given that you and I have not even had a glimpse of the kind of bliss, ours the attachment will be much, much greater. 

On the other hand when it comes to 'understanding', this being aimed at reducing ignorance, will incline towards knowing bliss itself for what it is. It wouldn't aim for something it does not know but instead bend towards knowing whatever the present moment reality is. And when involved in theory, would seek to find out what itself is. Namely what does understanding understand and when talking about enlightenment, what is it that it is enlightened to.




> understanding = bliss = merging = realization
> 
> Different words, yet they are all pointing towards the same.




There is no â€œmergingâ€ in Buddhism. Nirvana is the object of consciousness at the moment of enlightenment and immediately after. But these are extremely fleeting, although in that brief moment it serves to eradicate different defilements as per the stage.

The Buddha understood everything that was the object of his experience. Some of these included body unpleasant feelings, as in pain when sick, and what comes with old age. Unlike us, who after the experience of pain will have aversion to the pain, this second arrow did not ever strike the Buddha. Does this not indicate to you that at least in Buddhism, understanding and the experience of bliss or happiness are not tied together? Beside at a moment of wisdom, the accompanying feeling can be either pleasant or neutral (never unpleasant).     

Does the above make sense to you, Bhagat ji?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 13, 2011)

Ambersariaji, 

You told me to go look at dogs, but the dog beat me by looking at me!. thank you for your inspiration, (thats another thank you btw) , I think we may have been twin spirits maybe 20 years ago when you were less enlightened, but today I can only aspire as to your knowledge and wisdom peacesignkaur


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## pamma (Jul 13, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Phew, lots of material, and every posting stand up on its own, I am indeed fortunate to call on such a vast bank of knowledge and information here.
> 
> Ok, I the opinion I am forming now is that the ultimate bliss IS there, but you are called to it when the creator feels you are ready, until then we have a duty to our families, friends (err ok thats a tricky one, none left!), and more importantly people we interact with on a daily basis. I have decided to take Guru Nanakji as  role model, I decided that some time back, that decision surprises even me, with all the bloodlust within, and the fighting spirit, I would have thought Guru Gobindji would have been more appropriate, but the truth is, I don't wish to fight evil, but I have always had a soft spot for helping where I can, and so has my wife, so that is a path we can walk down together. I find myself asking in every situation, What would Guruji do in this instance.
> 
> ...


 



Well regarding prayer and refusing to pray, I would like to say that, remember, prayer may not change things for you but it definitely changes you for things. When we have trust in the Almighty, just pray to give you the strength to face bravely, whatever life has in store for you. That's what prayer is meant for. It's foolish asking him to change your destiny! The consequences of your Karam, you have to go through but with prayer, you will have the courage to face your problems and that is what a true Sikh should have. 

    All the best for starting to pray and remember prayer is not reading the scriptures only, It's opening out your heart to God.We will not get A Quick Post Reply but we will feel it when we will see the change in our attitudes towards the various situations in life. GURU RAKHA.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 13, 2011)

Pammaji

It is not that I am refusing to pray, or even against prayer, I just cannot seem to do it with any conviction!

I feel the creator knows my thoughts, my fears my aspirations, everything, maybe he even knows my thoughts before I have thought them, 

I watched my mother pray recently, afterwards, I got the impression she was not so much praying, as praising and thanking, rather than asking and wishing, and that, I feel only comes after you develop a more intimate relationship with the creator than I have at present. 

My heart is constantly open not only to the creator, but to anyone that wishes to engage me in dialogue, I have nothing to hide, not my past, my present, or my aspirations, but that comes more from a genuine feeling  of indifference to other peoples opinions, assisted by my complete lack of interest in 'small talk', the world, socially seems to go round on small talk, no one wants to talk about anything of any substance any more, people get embarrassed if you mention god, or lust, or wanting to find spiritual contentment. strangely enough, I value the validation and opinions of forum members, but then I find this forum a template for a perfect society with its politeness and chivalry. 

I feel I do not have to ask for courage when I need it, it is there, even when I feel like a coward, it just comes online as its needed, I ask for nothing from the creator, he seems to know better than me, what is good for me, and what I need


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## pamma (Jul 13, 2011)

I fail to understand why people should feel embarrassed to talk about God, or lust or spirituality. Well I consider myself lucky to have friends in my circle who enjoy talking on these matters.

         Your admitting that God knows what is good or bad for you is a kind of prayer in itself. If he gives you what you need and I'm sure that's what he did to your mother, thus she thanks him for taking care of her needs. When someone gives us a small gift, we think its polite to thank and we go to the extent of sending flowers and thank you cards. Well, to thank God for all that he does for us,we offer prayer, that's our thankyou card to him.

      HAPPYTHINKING!


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## Harry Haller (Jul 13, 2011)

I like the sound of that my friend, maybe I should amend my thoughts on prayer from asking to thanking, 

another nugget of invaluable information!

I have been watching Guruka Singh for most of the afternoon, such wonderful eyes the man has, its like watching a giant teddy bear instruct you on the mysteries of life, beautiful man ( i love teddy bears by the way! ) 

The more I delve into sikhism, the more I understand why so many societies have made it their mission to destroy us, they are afraid, afraid that there is an answer in sikhi for everything, and we are not afraid of anything, or afraid to talk about anything

Sat Sri Akal


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## pamma (Jul 13, 2011)

You have a good sense of humour. Don't think of any religion, Just think of the Almighty as your friend and talk to him. It is a one sided conversation no doubt but you have a listener who answers through his actions and you will experience that, once you have God heading your friend list.
       It's been nice exchanging views with you friend.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 13, 2011)

Many thanks Pammaji, I always talked to god, even when I denied him,and he always answered, like a patient father!, time to go home and see my wife and dogs, goodnight, god bless


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## Aulakh (Jul 14, 2011)

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
It is very encouraging that we are talking of a state which can not be put into words because that state is beyond the realam of words and thought.All of us experience this state in deep sleep,that is the sleep without dreams but non can put it into words other than"I enjoyed it,it is so refreshing and like ".For a few days I was at Upsala University in Sweden with my son and I sat in their common kitchen when everyone was away to department.It was snow all around the trees were dancing in fast wind and I was intune with them and chanting Waheguru;it was such a blissful experience for me.
Gian Singh Aulakh


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## Annie (Jul 14, 2011)

Okay, Harry Haller ji. Here is my story. You asked what bliss feels like, so I will tell you about the greatest moment of bliss in my life so far.

I almost died when I was nineteen years old. I was cliff jumping into a lake with some friends. I must have miscalculated my jump. When I looked down I saw that I was directly over some rocks that were at the edge of the water. There I was, free falling toward rocks and there was nothing I could do about it. I said to God, "do with me what you will" and accepted the idea of death. The moment I did that, a feeling of complete, profound peace came over me. At the same time I was keenly alert. Time slowed down. The colors of the scenery around me were more vibrant and rich than any colors I had ever seen before, or have seen since. With a sense of detached curiosity I thought, "so this is how it feels to die." Then I just barely missed the rocks. I felt them scrape against my side as I landed in the water. I did break my arm as it hit the water wrong - water is harder than it looks - but that was nothing compared to what could have happened. Since that day I believe without a doubt that God exists. Also that we have a spirit that is capable of things that the physical body is not, and will outlive the physical body. I felt it. No, the feeling of bliss did not last forever. My life has had its ups and downs; but I have the memory and knowledge. It is a part of me.

That moment of profound peace is what I would call bliss, Harry. But I wouldn't recommend anyone go cliff jumping to find it.


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## ravneet_sb (Jul 14, 2011)

:*admin icons removed by admin.* be my twin brother in spirit  :grinningsingh:

Everyone in this world, every creation has moments of bliss.  It is part of creation.  It is not exclusive to our Gurus or Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and you do not need a Guru to get it.

For Sikhs, you want to experience *more* Bliss, _you understand more of creation and the Creator with the help of our Gurus and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji__.  Basically we Sikhs are blessed to have been given tools of private tutoring for free!
_
I have moments of Bliss like flashes without looking for bliss as an objective in,


Looking at people
Listening to Shabads
Listening to Sufi music
Looking at animate and in-animate creation
Looking at Photographs
.....   Basically moments seem to happen when I drop the idea of looking and just be and sprinkle a bit of the understanding on the instance, _voila there is Bliss_
Now if you have fully understood, you could possibly be always in Bliss
_Note:__ Gurbani tells us we will never fully understand full creation, hence nobody has lived or will live who will be in a real state of bliss 24/7.  Some may pretend or look like they are.  Bliss will always be moments or periods and transient (as my brother Confused ji (wonderfully gifted to express very well) would use the word transient).
_
 
Sat Sri Akal.[/quote]

This is about "GURU" 


Who is "Guru" a word, a person, literature.

"GURU"  

"GU" is darkness
"RU" is light

In the outer world we experience light through our senses
But what is inside our body
darkness or light

Wait and Respond to self


There is light within, 

It can no be seen but only realised.

To humans 4% of nature events are visible, rest of the nature is hidden.


"GURUBANI" is the souce of inner light "Enlightment"

"GURU'S" have realized it and documented it. \

Very a few reaches there to realize and document. 

so "GURU" is as a literature, or as a person, or as self realization

which connects one to inner light

"SELF REALIZATION" 

is important sources are there.

Its like learning computer, 

we learn dot net

earlier we learn c++

before we learnt basic and machine language

machine language is based on 0 & 1

What is 0 & 1

0 & 1 is code given for vocal and literal understanding

when light fall on disc, 
if it fails to detect magnetic field it is 0
it it detects it responds 1

So ultimate is light

Rest is 0 or 1

When veil of body is gone

Every merges in  

"One"

This is "Life"


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## Balwinder singh (Jul 14, 2011)

WJKK WJKF

To all guru piare jio again sat sri akal.

You have touched a topic which forced me to answer.It is God's grace only through which one gets this beautiful and costliest gift.

First of all , remembering Guru Nanak Sahib Ji with folded hands, I say 

that I have been blessed with this ultimate gift of bliss.

Story started in march-2006 when I passed 5-6 nights crying without any 
disease.Later on I came to know that it is kundalini awakening.My life was on a sharp turn and i chose some seva of guru patshah.God chose me to become instrumental in bringing out sikh relics lying with gursikhs.

My seva was accepted by all mighty.I was pulled towards spirituality, seva and nitnem. Bani started giving me deep peace.Days came when i used to step into thoughtless-awareness state(smadhi).Initially it used to last for minutes , now i can sit for hours continuously.Bani is like sweet candy to me.Feeling during and immediately after samadhi is of bliss where there is no thought , worry , anxiety ,hurry, sadness , happiness etc. only a sense of deep absorption which one long to remain in.That is true bliss.

Only by the grace of Guru Nanak ,It is possible.As i spend 5-6 hrs daily on bani listening on ipod( Note carefully that my experience has yielded excellent results with IPOD), layers of mind are clearing which i can feel.

I know that internet community is very sharp and intelligent still 
a few suggestions which i feel are very important. 

1) Take Amrit first.It is most important initiation process.
2) True Satsangat is must to clear doubts.
3) Sit in relaxed, meditative state in comfortable atmosphere in the background of guru's suffering for us and listen to Japuji sahib may 3-4 times continuously.After completion, no talking, no-tv, no-paper, no-arguments etc. etc. after 6-7 months add Sukhmani Sahib to it. As i have experimented and got results.Yes! this may apply to everybody.  I am sure you will be near to your desired state where this will be achieved as byproduct of guru love and grace. 
4) You can start side by side Sri Guru Granth Sahib reading with love and humility.
5) Start any selfless seva.

You all are well conversant about these points but my purpose here is to show you the shortest path which helped me to get enlightened.With Pthe Guru's grace I live always in this state .

Personal information has been removed. This is not a safe Internet practice. Please contact Balwinder Singh ji by private message if you wish to  ccontact him. spnadmin


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## Harry Haller (Jul 14, 2011)

Gurfatehji, 

I am beginning to be quite enchanted by the Guru's words as spoken by Guruka Singh. Yeterday I watched his discourse on Sin and Guilt, and also on judging others, both made excellent points, thank you Bhagatsinghji for pointing me in the direction of that. 

There are certain things that I do that make me feel guilty, but they give me pleasure, so I carry on doing them, they are not huge issues, and the guilt I feel is small, like eating lots of chocolate and fatty foods, when I know with my heart condition I should know better, or having lustful thoughts towards my wife, when she clearly needs a hug, and just a hug!. In bed last night, with the normal sprawl of animals all over me, I thought about the whole guilt pleasure sin thing, pleasure is pleasure, not bliss, what is the difference? My wife loves shopping, I mean, she really really loves shopping in a quite obsessive way, not even for personal things but pointless things, to the point where several months ago, she asked me if I could just give her enough small change to get through the day every morning. I don't hugely like this, but I understand that in order to conquer certain things you need to have all the help you can get, I agreed, if she needs to buy anything, she buys it of the internet,  but on any given day, she will have only small change in her pocket. My mother thinks this is ridiculous, and rightly so!  but It is my wifes way of releasing herself from the pleasure/guilt roundabout, only I had not realised this before watching the sin/guilt video, it says, there is no sin, only guilt, if you feel guilt, stop doing what makes you guilty, as guilt will drag you down, not sin. I explained this to my wife, and she nodded and said she felt happier not feeling guilty about spending money on pointless things, although she accepted that it did bring her pleasure. I remarked that as closer as I get to enlightenment, she always seems to be one step ahead of me, without even realising it. 

Together we read some of the posts here about creation, consonance and wisdom, then I hugged my dogs, and talked to them, and we watched tv in each others arms for the next hour. Conclusion? Bliss is pleasure without guilt, and thats what makes it so blissful. 

This morning, I realised I had left home without my wallet. The car petrol gauge is useless, and although it showed quarter tank, the car started chugging, and then stalled about half a mile from the petrol station. This did not bother me hugely, I started it, and it fired, and we got to the petrol station, albeit with a pocket full of change and no wallet. I thought maybe it was just something in the fuel line, and not wanting to waste my precious change on petrol as opposed to chocolate and coca cola, I debated driving off, but I decided to drive round the forecourt to see if it really was out, and it seemed ok, but chugged when i stopped by the pump. So I drive round again, and it was fine, but again it chugged as I pulled up by the pump, not wanting to waste more petrol with another circuit, and aware that the staff inside were staring at this mad fool driving round the pumps, I conceded that there would be no coca cola and chocolate this morning, and filled the car with a fiver, standing in the queue, I noticed I had about 6 pounds in my pocket, not quite enough, but then, at the front of the queue, in a basket, coca cola and a huge bar of chocolate,  both reduced and within budget!, now, that feeling, was bliss, not utter bliss, as I shouldn't really be stuffing my face, but nevertheless, in that time, and in that place, and in that context, yes, I was blissfully happy. 

Gurbani, I would like to think can bring on these feelings with no guilt, and eventually, I would hope, with no third party interaction, ie, you are in bliss because you are happy to know god. 

Now prayer- with all this bliss I am experiencing, (which i was experiencing before, I just did not know it), I feel the urge to thank people, I keep thanking my wife for being so patient and showing such an interest in sikh philosophy, my parents for, again, being so patient and understanding that instead of a grandson with a little jura, they have ended with a stepgrandson 6 and a half foot tall, and not of a matching colour!, and for some reason, I keep finding myself saying Dhan Dhan Nanak, and, would you believe it, the odd shabad has now permeated my subconcious, so far, Dukh Bhanjan tera nam, probably as I saw the film as I child, Deh Sheeva, from the same film, my way of thanking the creator not so much for the bliss, but for seeing the bliss, for being able to see the bliss, 

thank you all again so much for the wise words that have helped me get to this point


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## Harry Haller (Jul 14, 2011)

Beautiful post Balwinderji, 

I am so glad that you are experiencing what I wish to carry on feeling and by the Guru's grace. The only point I would make, and correct me if I am wrong, but I feel there are no short or long paths, there is only the 1 path, and it is different for every human being, your path is your path, it is individual to you, and cannot be copied as a template for another, just my opinion, I am sure more learned individuals will correct me, and if so, I will of course amend my thinking. 

However the contents of your path, of course shine a light to us all, 0


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 14, 2011)

ravneet_sb ji thanks for your post.

One thing that comes to mind is about the merging and emerging aspects.  As after conception we continue to grow or emerge on a net basis.  But there comes a time in normal length life where a more merging part of ourselves starts to take hold.  We lose hair, we lose teeth, we lose eyesight, we lose hearing, we lose weight and it continues till  we are too frail and then we breath our last breath and the heart beats for the last time.  Left alone in stead of cremation, we will continue to merge back into creation through maggots, animals, chemicals and so on, till the strong winds, rains, fire, etc. will make us one from where we start.  This is creation.  We never stop to change and creation never stops to merge and emerge things.

‪Dekh Bande ke bhag farida Tan suka Harjinder Singh Shri Nagar‬&rlm;      - YouTube

‪salok saekh fareedh kae part 1‬‏      - YouTube
‪salok saekh fareedh kae part 2‬‏      - YouTube
‪salok saekh fareedh kae part 3‬‏      - YouTube

During living days we have ability given by creation to live a life.  How is left a lot with us.  Our Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji guide us in understanding all these relationships and how to embed these in daily living.  Creation does not change rules, but how we are will impact how rest of the creation will react with us.

We can live in consonance with creation, have peace, happiness and add to same for others we react with.  Otherwise either we are seen as good or bad by people, good or bad by animals, good or bad by the environment, and the list is infinite.  Not all interactions or impacts are apparent or earth shattering, but these exist as instances all around all the time.

You multiply it into societies, cultures, countries, generations or other groupings and you will start observing aspects that may have been miniscule for one.  Good hearted people, good hearted community, generous community, destroyers of the environment, etc.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## DrRavtej (Jul 15, 2011)

I do not know what bliss is but when I look around and see all the pain and suffering in the world and then look at myself, I surely do fell blessed.
I think to feel the feeling of bliss it is very important to be mentally at peace with who you are. For someone who believes in Sikhism it would only come when he knows that he is not going against the teachings of SGGS.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 15, 2011)

DrRavtejji

funny you should say that, I wonder if bliss is actually the most peaceful feeling in the world, rather than the happiest. If that is the case then 1st Pauri Japji Sahib probably encapsulates the road to bliss period!

Fear, I find is a huge block to gaining bliss, to have no fear, one must stop planting seeds that bloom into problems, which cause fear, and instead sow seeds that are god given, that mature into bliss.

I think you are right, if you follow the teachings of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, you will plant god given seeds, if you go against, you sow seeds that are pleasurable in the short term, but problematic in the long


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## seeker3k (Jul 16, 2011)

Bliss?
<?"urn:fficeffice" /><o> </o>
That is a million dollar question.
<o> </o>
Bliss is a concept of religious people’s concept. There are many types of bliss. For example: when runner is going to run 100 m race he/she is only thinking about the line he have to cross in order to win the race. When he crosses it he is in bliss. There are many other situations where one is totally focused he is in bliss. 
But here you are asking about spiritual bliss.
<o> </o>
The meditors claim he get in bliss when he meditate. He claims he is at peace and he has no thoughts. He sees bright light and he feels no worry and only joy. 
<o> </o>
I find this made up stories. Some one said that he saw light some says he heard melody music. Some says he saw Christ others say he saw <?xml::ffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on">Krishna and some says he saw Nanak.
I have met these people who claim this thing. When I ask how he knew it was Nanak he saw. He says he looked like the painting that is in his room. I tell him that painting of Nanak is not a real. It is artist’s concept.  Then he has no answer to his claim. Nanak can be replaced with Christ,Krisha and so on and on. 
<o> </o>
The feeling is emotional and feeling is with the body not by soul. If one is feeling emotions or he sees light then it is not bliss. 
<o> </o>
When one is in trance he feels nothing.
<o> </o>
Bliss is the goal of every meditator. Bliss can not be explained nor can it be felt.   
<o> </o>
How can we tell if some one had bliss?  The person who had bliss will have a change of life style. His/her thinking and action will be very different then before.
<o> </o>
But watch out people are very good liars.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 20, 2011)

Confused ji, I find it hard to disagree with your posts.


> Now even these people, as they continue to develop their concentration,  moving up the different stages of Jhana, *never at any time aim to have  bliss*. Indeed they would have to at some point, rise above happiness and  rapture in order that they experience even higher states, accordingly  the  â€œsphere of infinite space, â€œsphere of infinite  consciousness, sphere of no-thingness and finally, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. Those who are  stuck at the lower stages where bliss dominates, this is because they do  not perceive the subtle attachment. This means that those who are able  to progress, this is because they recognize the attachment that has  arisen towards it.


This is very well articulated.
Dwelling on your words has lead me to go beyond the words, and see your use of the words perception, bliss and understanding, as referring to the same thing. Although in your post I see how you use them for specific objects of attachment, which one must realize even the concept "understanding" can become.

As long as these things are concepts they can be attached to. The REAL deal is not a concept.

(It is important to keep in mind that words are inherently vague, and could mean anything. The same post could appear to be ramblings of an idiot or of an enlightened sadhu. And also at any given time, words can only point towards _*that*_ from one perspective.)

Through your own expression you do point out one of the traps to enlightenment. And this is where the individual experiences a pleasant state and wishes to stay there longer, trying to control it/himself to feel pleasant. 

It must be realized that this is how we normally operate. Hence stepping out of our habitual nature of seeking and avoiding, we must let go of everything.

Even Guru Nanak then said "if you wish to travel on my path, come forth with your head on your palm". Do not even be attached to your own life. Let go of everything; detach yourself. Let go of even the idea that one is trying to attain some understanding or bliss or whatever one wants to call it. Let go of these beliefs. Let go of the "head".

Letting go of things is accepting that which is, at this very moment. Letting it be, embracing it, dwelling in it, being in harmony with creation and creator, living in the Hukam, so on and so forth.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 20, 2011)

Bhagat singh ji couple of comments on your post as quoted below,



> Even Guru Nanak then said "if you wish to travel on my path, come forth  with *your head on your palm*".
> 
> 
> _The above is a literal.  The essence is come with an open mind and not pre-conceived ideas._
> ...


Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 20, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji,
The words are inhrently vague and could mean anything holds good if the words are not directed.
In Gurbani each and every word is properly directed for its specific meaning along with relevent context so that any one can get a difinite understanding of the messages.That is why the BANI of SGGS has been refered as BAANIYAAN SIR BAANI  that is to say as APEX of all what has been said till date.
But it is unfortunate we fail to understand the  uniqueness of Gurbani and our approach is casual too.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2011)

Yes pretty much.

It certainly does seem like a stretch when one goes from one set of words to another.

That sentence of Guru Nanak is full of meaning. Both literal and metaphorical interpretations make way for the real understanding. Meditating on them both, one begins to understand creation and creator.

Like Prakash Ji says, Gurbani is complete. It is all stated in there. We must begin to walk in that direction in which the words direct us.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 21, 2011)

Bhagat Singh Ji,

You are absolutely right ,Sir.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Archived_member14 (Jul 23, 2011)

Bhagat ji,




> Confused ji, I find it hard to disagree with your posts.
> This is very well articulated.
> Dwelling on your words has lead me to go beyond the words, and see your use of the words perception, bliss and understanding, as referring to the same thing. Although in your post I see how you use them for specific objects of attachment, which one must realize even the concept "understanding" can become.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your compliments, although I wasn't really talking about the path to enlightenment. ;-) 

I think this thing about words being merely representations is not really an issue. More important is to distinguish between concept and reality, not just when expressed in words, but at the level of perception before labels are applied, in fact even before recognition.     

Yes, except for Nirvana and the enlightened state which experiences it, anything can be attached to, not just the concepts, but also realities. Indeed it must be for example, the attachment to a particular taste, that there is then also the attachment to the concept of that taste. And yes, we can and do get attached to the idea of 'understanding', but this is only because at that very moment, there is in fact *no* understanding. Besides, the word 'understanding' has a history where it is used outside the context of the development of wisdom. For example we say, "I understand the problem", be this in the context of conventional knowledge or most of what comes as worldly wisdom, because these have nothing to do with the Truth, they must then in fact be all about attachment and ignorance. 

Understanding as I like to use it however, when it does arise as a reality, is accompanied by and results in a degree of "detachment". Understanding the truth is to be free, momentarily though it is, from the object towards which one otherwise is taken in by, due to ignorance. In this regard therefore, it is in fact opposed to attachment. And as one continues to develop it, the likeliness of 'attachment to the understanding' must then gradually reduce. After all, the word will increasingly be associated with past instances of the reality and less and less to being just another idea. So when we are prompted to "understand", we know that it must be about what the "reality now is".



> Through your own expression you do point out one of the traps to enlightenment. And this is where the individual experiences a pleasant state and wishes to stay there longer, trying to control it/himself to feel pleasant.




As I said, I wasn't really talking about the path to enlightenment. I believe that the development of understanding which leads to enlightenment, refer only to the moments when wisdom actually arises to know a reality. And when this happens, even at the beginner's level, there must be a corresponding level of detachment. Indeed it can be said that this is the "path of detachment" all the way through from beginning to end.

From this perspective then, great bliss is not a trap any more than say, great pain is. If wisdom arises, both will be seen for what they are and detached from, and if not, both are a problem equally. In other words if someone is in the situation you describe, chances are that he wasnâ€™t on the path towards enlightenment to begin withâ€¦.



> It must be realized that this is how we normally operate. Hence stepping out of our habitual nature of seeking and avoiding, we must let go of everything.




Yes, attachment is the driving force for all of us. But detachment must come only with understanding; indeed one could say that it is a by-product of understanding. The focus must therefore always be to understand. If we speak then about "letting go", without taking into account the role of understanding, this invariably becomes just another instance of attachment and ignorance. In other words, no matter how much we tell ourselves to "let go" or "not to be attached", the result will not be in accordance to what only wisdom can cause to happen.


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## Balwinder singh (Jul 25, 2011)

Wjkk Wjkf
harry haller ji

Yes in dynamics of life shades of path may differ for different individual but path is one.

Though the phenomena of kundalini is not very openly discussed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but mention is there on Ang 1402---Kundlini surji satsangat--And this important event occurs in the life of a  singh upon whom the guru's grace falls.

Point 1) Regarding Amrit:  As it is Hukam by !0th master to take Amrit from five rehtia singhs.All five are supposed to be ascended souls.What happens, at least , when they sit together and recite bani SHAKTIPAT happens.During Amrit prepration shaktipat energises the amrit.Then five piaras make eye contact and deliver amrit physically.So here all the methods of shaktipat transfer occur and from beyond Guru Sahib shower grace .So most important step towards kundalini awakening starts.Seed is sown.

Point2) Managment of kundalini awakening happens automatically by Sri Japjuji sahib and Bani .Messages one understands on the way from guru piaras in satsang.Company of sadh sangat is very important for intermittent charging with shakti.  

Point3) After taking Amrit one should be very hopeful regarding samadhi.So 
banis must be read/listened in meditative state as if you are going into samadhi otherwise simply time wastage will be there.

point4) Every body who so ever comes on earth has earthy desires/thoughts etc. except prophets or guru sahibs.To charge soul ,selfless service is most important.There is no concern of money, only service from heart.God enabled me to serve through homeopathy.I do not charge any thing. And feeling which i get after cure of somebody is simply matchless.

Dear I passed through all the shades with the grace of Guru Sahib Ji and hope that if this basic template is used , most of us can gain.

One more point , there should be total personality transformation .When grace falls , all negativities just vanish away.Believe me there are blessed people also among us .They are not in the sky or under water.Most of the blessed you will find in the house of GURU NANAK DEV JI. 

And also , fake explanations can be given on any subject but they remain fake at the end.

More  on site by us www.sikh-relics.com

Thanks for the comments.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 25, 2011)

Balwinder Singh ji are you believer of the following,



> In the Doaba Region of Punjab, if we go from Hoshiar Pur to Dasuya,   then almost at a  distance of 30 Kms, before the town of Garhdiwala, on   the Western side  of the main road, a highly elevated Nishaan Sahib  will  be visible which  indicates and shows a snow white elegant  building,  called *Gurdwara Ram  Pur Khera*. The locals call it “Khera  Sahib”. Asking  from an elderly  person of this area it can be known  that the blissful,  oozing atmosphere  of modern Ram Pur Khera was a  deserted, lonely and  fearful place in the  1950’s. The general masses  of the area were so  frightened from the  place that they avoided even  passing nearby it. A  huge cluster of  “Banyan” trees, wild plants and  bushes, long and  tangled vegetation  around it was the natural shelter  for the wild  animals and serpents.  Even the rays of the sun could not  touch the  ground due to the roothless  growth of underneath plants, so  this piece  of land was deserted, left  out and discarded for human  growth. _Only the  evil spirits, ghosts and  witches were ruling over  here, resulting in  the increase of area of this  cursed mound. Such was  the gripping fear  and terrible thought in the  minds of the general  public that what to  say of entering this dreaded  place, nobody dared  pointing to it _...........


Please identify the Sikhism portion in the above as highlighted and I got it from the website you referred to in your post above.

I am personally very happy that you are helping people as that is the highest of all deeds and keep that part of your life going.  Rest in terms of the site and stuff there is very dicey.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 25, 2011)

Confused ji,

I feel you are saying the same things as I, and I am saying the same things as everyone else. 

We are having a conversation obviously. But in a conversation two people say different things. Otherwise, what is the need for conversation? Think about it.

Perhaps, it's in the inherent nature of the conversation to take out of the reality (that we already understand) and force it through the human brain and out into an "expression" (conversation being an expression of that reality. thought is also an expression of that reality. One could say instead that thought is translated into conversation.). This expression that came through one brain looks different than when it comes through another brain. A brain does not recognize some other brain's expression but in essence it is the same. They are both expressing reality.

Ok now you mention understanding... The question is what is there to be understood? 

You say understanding leads to detachment from everything (note: everything!). Then was there ever an understanding to begin with? This is the "sphere of _no-thing_ness". Even to call _it_ that would be a display of ignorance. But it must be called something.

If you understand reality then you have understood _nothing_.

(meditate)


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## Balwinder singh (Jul 26, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Balwinder Singh ji are you believer of the following,
> 
> 
> Please identify the Sikhism portion in the above as highlighted and I got it from the website you referred to in your post above.
> ...



Wjkk Wjkf

Dear Khalsa Ji!

I myself have not seen these entities yet but I have 1000% faith on Bani written by Guru Sahibs like mention of these entities is made by Satguru Arjan Dev Ji Sahib in Sri Sukhmani Sahib.I have also come across names like yam, yamdute etc. in bani.On our site , there is recording of Suleman who spoke through another person and sikh sangat of Rara sahib got answers to many tangible questions. In one section , after death-section , we have included reports of people who got permission to visit other realms where these entities live and they have given enough detail like lady julia, eva, swedon borg etc.In these days Brian weiss is spearheading the study/practice of past life regression in USA.


A recording by Baba Harnam Singh Ji of Ram Pur Khera is also on our website which gives enough knowledge about various entities.

Even myself used to be an comrade by thought.Now as one saint has transformed me and I say with full confidence that like kundalini , chakras and vanishing of lust, vanishing of greed,even body chemistry wrt respiration, always single pointedly thinking about God/Guru sahib are not mere talks or philosophies.This is truth and upon whom grace falls , he can get.Telepathy has become a sort of normal activity.

Similarly when God permits one can interact with Shaheed sings and other entities.One can make astral voyage.Leaving body and travelling.I know one such person.It is true that Bani japna only brings all this--no short cut.

Plz ask as many questions as you can.I will feel happy.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 26, 2011)

Balwinder Singh Ji,
The messages of your post  may appear very interesting to any one. But Where can we find in Gurbani such tactics as being  approved /or advocated.
It would be more elucidated if you can post any quote /quotes from Gurbani for such approval by Guru Sahib ji.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Balwinder singh (Jul 27, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> Balwinder Singh Ji,
> The messages of your post  may appear very interesting to any one. But Where can we find in Gurbani such tactics as being  approved /or advocated.
> It would be more elucidated if you can post any quote /quotes from Gurbani for such approval by Guru Sahib ji.
> Prakash.s.Bagga



Wjkk Wjkf

 Dear Bagga Ji!


In response to your doubt  regarding astral entities like bhut,preta etc, i am giving below the references  from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

1) Ang 276  line--4           Under Sri Sukhmani Sahib.

2) Ang 654 line --12

3) Ang 841 line --12

4) Ang 991 line--6

5) Ang 1374 line --16

and also on Ang--323, 513,802,890,963,1149,1224,1329,1399.


Regarding kundalini ;

1) ang 1402

2) ang 333 line 3

3) ang 343 line 14

4) Bani Bhagat Beni Ji

5) ang 298 line 18

6) ang 974 line 11

7) 1002 line 6

8) ang 334 line 11

9) ang 944 line 18

10) ang 974 line 6

I think ample proof is there in Guru Sahib Ji to expel our doubt.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 27, 2011)

BALWINDER SINGH Ji,
I do not deny the references you have mentoned.These references are very much there in SGGS but I dont find any qoute /quotes adovating or approving such techniques.
Sikhs have been warned for indulging into any such practices so these references have been there in SGGS ..only as warning ....not as approval.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Jul 27, 2011)

Balwinder ji

10 verses taken in isolation may mention practices and it may seem they are advocated. But put these references into a vichaar of a complete shabad. Reflect on the rehao verse and the concluding verses of the shabad. A different picture emerges.


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## Balwinder singh (Jul 28, 2011)

Wjkk, Wjkf

Hello Dear Bagga Ji!

Following sared lines are from Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ from bani by Bhagat Beni Ji.

No doubt we need not to go for kundalini awakening as others do like 

pranayam, neti and other such things BUT  this thing happens in us also. 

Our's is shabad-surat way in prem marg.We love our gurus and 

do simran and we are also instructed time and again in bani to company 

true sadh-sangat.Yes, we are not to focus on kundalini but on bani which 

will do the same thing also and much more. 



ਇੜਾ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਅਉਰ ਸੁਖਮਨਾ ਤੀਨਿ ਬਸਹਿ ਇਕ ਠਾਈ

This place is called 6th chakra.When after awakening ,soul touches/clears

this chakra, samadhi starts.

ਗੁਰ ਗਮਿ ਚੀਨੈ ਬਿਰਲਾ ਕੋਇ ॥

Path of guru only few understands.

ਤਹ ਬਾਜੇ ਸਬਦ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਣੀ ॥
when 4th chakra gets cleared anhad nad starts.With the grace of Guru 

Nanak Dev Ji  , das listened conch's tune as anhad nad.

ਸਾਖੀ ਜਾਗੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਣੀ ॥੨॥
This state is called witness state where one sees himself first.When das got this state , I used to feel as if somebody is always sitting on my shoulders and keep watching all my thoughts.

ਉਪਜੈ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਛੀਜੈ ॥

The day came in my life when all the questions were answered.

 ਜਾਗਤੁ ਰਹੈ ਸੁ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਸੋਵੈ ॥
During this state i used to listen my own snores so many in no.My sleep hrs reduced to too less without wretchedness. 


ਤੀਨਿ ਤਿਲੋਕ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਪਲੋਵੈ ॥


Then slowly I was blessed with samadhi which is just supreme where only bliss is there , no thought--nothing.Now daily for 3-4 hrs  i remain in samadhi.Only samadhi clears our past life impressions.It creates brahm-agni which clears sukhmana nadi and thus paving the way to open 10th door.Similarly bani guides us about the route.Our bani has message from God and music underneath to clear the soul.Above all grace of Guru Nanak Patshah Ji.

How can i deny when all these things have happened with me and new things are unveiling . There are many illusions in our brotherhood.Some should be ruthlessly done away.

At last when we are hell bent to reject everything then there is no solution.

Guru Mehar Karan.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 28, 2011)

BALWINDER SINGH Ji,

I can realise you must have experiened such things and because of your experience you have taken them as final Truth.You may be right in your state of experience.
But we are required to understand the true messages of Gurbani and you would really find that messages are far beyond what you consider as final truth.
Gurbani is there to make us free from any type of Bondages.We have to connect ourselves with our GuRu only which is free byitself and is capable of making others free.
There is a Sabad in SGGS at pp610 Sorath M 5
Sagal Samagree  Mohee Viyaapee Kab OOche Kab Neeche................

Kahu Nanak GuR Binu Nahi Tariye Ihu Pooran Tat Beechaaraa.pp610-19

You may get to the meanings of this Sabad You may get some idea about what you might have experienced.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 28, 2011)

BALWINDER SINGH Ji,
You are experiencing Samaadhi for 3-4 hrs only.If you really can make Samadhi with GuRu this is going tb 24 by 7 and forever.
I suppose Bhagat Beni Ji is making reference of Samadhi with GuRu which is permanent and for ever.[Ref the Sabad posted]

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 28, 2011)

BALWINDER SINGH Ji,
I would like to bring your attention to the last line of your message as
>If we are hell bent to reject everything then there is no solution"

Dear Balwinder singh ji it is not like that the way you have thought.If your experience and your views pass the real Test of Gurbani  views I am sure any one should accept it gladly.
So you may pl try to understand the relevence of your views.We all are prepared to appreciate and accept any view/views which conforms with the views of Gurbani.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Balwinder singh (Jul 29, 2011)

Wjkk ,Wjkf

Hello Dear Khalsa ji!

May God /Guru save me from false ego.I genuflect before Guru Granth Sahib Ji and pray that my illusions may be dispelled and we should be put on the path towards the lap of Guru Nanak Dev Ji.Subtle ego is very dangrous.I close this thread from myside.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 29, 2011)

I personally do not see a disagreement.

What I do see is naming things differently. 


awakening of kundalini
achieving Samadhi 24/7
achieving enlightenment
living in the consonance of everything/God
living in tune to Guru's Will/Hukam
intuitive understanding of everything/God
merging of small jot with ultimate Jot
understanding the nature of the self
living in the present moment
being fully aware and alert
realization of Oneness
realizing they are already enlightened
realizing they are already merged
realizing they cannot live outside of the Hukam
realizing there is no God (every other name as well: Joti, Waheguru, Allah ,Ram, etc)
... etc

How are they different? Different only in their names and the fact that mythologies are created around them to try and get people towards them.

I mean the whole notion of some sort of coiled energy in the body that is opened up... I mean it could be true, I don't know, but it's referring to the same experience one has when jot merges with bigger Jot, enlightenment and so on.

You don't know which one is true. There is no way to know. After the experience the observer validates a particular name/desscription.

The Muslim validates that Allah is God
The Hindu validates that Krishna is God
The Sikh ...Waheguru
The Atheist ... nothing there

What neither of them realize is that when stepped upto the plate of validating anything, they already stepped up and out of the underlying reality. The underlying reality is the bull that supports their superficial reality.

The underlying reality could be named as "Waheguru" and superficial reality as "Maya" but by naming it any way, it cannot be realized.

Underlying reality cannot be put into words. What is important is to SEE what they/we are talking about. To see the underlying reality.

All the methods look different on the outside but inside... when you actually look on the inside of all those practices...they are all the same. Both practioners of Jotism and Kudalinism are doing the same. The Jotists maybe doing simran or something and Kudalinist maybe doing yoga or something. 

And if they are not achieving their results they both aren't doing that which they hold in common. 

What do they hold in common?

...

How do I name it? 

I have used the  words "underlying reality". but what the **** is the underlying reality? How can we know this reality?
One can know *that* by practicing and remaining detached from any particular set of words and any explanations (whether scientific because scientific ones can be pretty enticing nowadays).

*That* which in its ultimate form is named above and below in bullet points. 

Even to say what we out to be practicing to realize the underlying reality, is difficult and can be said in many words, some of which may even contradict with each other.

They should be practicing following:


awakening of kundalini
achieving Samadhi 24/7
achieving enlightenment
living in the consonance of everything/God
living in tune to Guru's Will/Hukam
intuitive understanding of everything/God
merging of small jot with ultimate Jot
understanding the nature of the self
living in the present moment
being fully aware and alert
realization of Oneness
realizing they are already enlightened
realizing they are already merged
realizing they cannot live outside of the Hukam
realizing there is no God
 ... etc

The practice is the goal? YES!

Stated like so e.g. kundalini
Practice the awakening of kundalini is the goal of kundalini yoga is to practice the awakening to kundalini is the goal of...

If you tried to follow the above with your preconceived notions about the underlying reality, then you probably went "what the ****?"

*sigh*

What is important is the practice and not the name of it.

I personally do not see a disagreement. I see *that *which is being pointlessly disagreed on.

(meditate)

That is Bliss.

ਬਾਵਨ  ਅਖਰ  ਜੋਰੇ  ਆਨਿ  ॥ 
बावन अखर जोरे आनि ॥ 
Bāvan akẖar jore ān. 
The fifty-two letters have been joined together.

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਸਕਿਆ  ਨ  ਅਖਰੁ  ਏਕੁ  ਪਛਾਨਿ  ॥ 
सकिआ न अखरु एकु पछानि ॥ 
Saki▫ā na akẖar ek pacẖẖān. 
But people cannot recognize the One Word of God. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਤ  ਕਾ  ਸਬਦੁ  ਕਬੀਰਾ  ਕਹੈ  ॥ 
सत का सबदु कबीरा कहै ॥ 
Saṯ kā sabaḏ kabīrā kahai. 
Kabeer speaks the Shabad, the Word of Truth. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਪੰਡਿਤ  ਹੋਇ  ਸੁ  ਅਨਭੈ  ਰਹੈ  ॥ 
पंडित होइ सु अनभै रहै ॥ 
Pandiṯ ho▫e so anbẖai rahai. 
One who is a Pandit, a religious scholar, must remain fearless. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਪੰਡਿਤ  ਲੋਗਹ  ਕਉ  ਬਿਉਹਾਰ  ॥ 
पंडित लोगह कउ बिउहार ॥ 
Pandiṯ logah ka▫o bi▫uhār. 
It is the business of the scholarly person to join letters. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਗਿਆਨਵੰਤ  ਕਉ  ਤਤੁ  ਬੀਚਾਰ  ॥ 
गिआनवंत कउ ततु बीचार ॥ 
Gi▫ānvanṯ ka▫o ṯaṯ bīcẖār. 
The spiritual person contemplates the essence of reality. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਾ  ਕੈ  ਜੀਅ  ਜੈਸੀ  ਬੁਧਿ  ਹੋਈ  ॥ 
जा कै जीअ जैसी बुधि होई ॥ 
Jā kai jī▫a jaisī buḏẖ ho▫ī. 
According to the wisdom within the mind, 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਹਿ  ਕਬੀਰ  ਜਾਨੈਗਾ  ਸੋਈ  ॥੪੫॥ 
कहि कबीर जानैगा सोई ॥४५॥ 
Kahi Kabīr jānaigā so▫ī. ||45|| 
says Kabeer, so does one come to understand. ||45|| </td></tr></tbody></table>
Page 343


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## Harry Haller (Jul 29, 2011)

The bliss you gentlemen speak of, frankly dwarfs looking into a dogs eyes, and is the sort of bliss that I was referring to when this thread started. 

However, as I see it, the problem with this bliss is, its addictive. 3 or 4 hours is not enough, do this, and you might get 6 or 7 hours, or even 24/7. 

If consonance is a state of mind you get when you are  in tune with the world and yourself, then this bliss must be a state of mind when you are in tune with the creator. But, we are supposed to be family people, this is not a competition to see who we can merge with that will give us the most bliss. Is it possible that the yearning for bliss is also attachment to bliss? Is the goal consonance, with periods of bliss, or do you chase the bliss dragon above everything else because the source is so pure?

I think we all have to make our own minds on that one, unless some wise soul can point me to what the official word is.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 29, 2011)

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
Your observations and views are very much correct.So what should be the conclusion?.
We as Gur Sikh are required to know and assess the utility of all what has been mentioned  in terms of views of GuRu.
That is why we should give a thought to knowing Gurmat RAM NAAMu only.According to Gurbani there is nothing equvelent to or beyond this RAM NAAMu.
The day anyone would get the understanding of this his search should be over I feel so..
Pl give a thought to a quote from SGGS as
"Ram Naamu Ur Main Gaeyo  Jaa Ke Sum Nahi Koi
Jih Simrat Sankat Mite Daras Tuhaaro Hoi"           pp1429

It is this Ram Naamu "The Ultimate Truth " of the universe.From within Gurbani we should all try to know this only.This is the only Single Important message of Gurbani.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 29, 2011)

Harry ji
You are very wise so I can say this to you: 
One's bliss dwarfs another, yet neither sees that their bliss is that of the other. 

Lol what do you know, I rhymed it. What could be more blissful that rhyming a string of words? Surely looking into a dog's eye cannot match such bliss. 

I am no wise soul Harry ji but to my knowledge the official word, so far, is that there is no official word. If you don't hear it now, you will when you are ready. Hear it yet? Must listen more closely to the official word.
.
.
.

Prakash ji, To be honest I was not giving views or observations, I felt like I was meditating (as with all my posts). Perhaps I can conclude that _*it*_ cannot be concluded and if you forcefully do so, you'll run into people you have concluded differently. At this point, you will end up discussing conclusions in a forum, perhaps in threads like "Sikhism and the Feeling of Bliss". lol


Hmm... page 1429, I think all of it should be meditated upon. Each line resonates with the quote you have given. Here you go:
<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਨਿਜ  ਕਰਿ  ਦੇਖਿਓ  ਜਗਤੁ  ਮੈ  ਕੋ  ਕਾਹੂ  ਕੋ  ਨਾਹਿ  ॥ 
निज करि देखिओ जगतु मै को काहू को नाहि ॥ 
Nij kar ḏekẖi▫o jagaṯ mai ko kāhū ko nāhi. 
I had looked upon the world as my own, but no one belongs to anyone else. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਾਨਕ  ਥਿਰੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਭਗਤਿ  ਹੈ  ਤਿਹ  ਰਾਖੋ  ਮਨ  ਮਾਹਿ  ॥੪੮॥ 
नानक थिरु हरि भगति है तिह राखो मन माहि ॥४८॥ 
Nānak thir har bẖagaṯ hai ṯih rākẖo man māhi. ||48|| 
O Nanak, only devotional worship of the Lord is permanent; enshrine this in your mind. ||48|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਗ  ਰਚਨਾ  ਸਭ  ਝੂਠ  ਹੈ  ਜਾਨਿ  ਲੇਹੁ  ਰੇ  ਮੀਤ  ॥ 
जग रचना सभ झूठ है जानि लेहु रे मीत ॥ 
Jag racẖnā sabẖ jẖūṯẖ hai jān leho re mīṯ. 
The world and its affairs are totally false; know this well, my friend. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਹਿ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਥਿਰੁ  ਨਾ  ਰਹੈ  ਜਿਉ  ਬਾਲੂ  ਕੀ  ਭੀਤਿ  ॥੪੯॥ 
कहि नानक थिरु ना रहै जिउ बालू की भीति ॥४९॥ 
Kahi Nānak thir nā rahai ji▫o bālū kī bẖīṯ. ||49|| 
Says Nanak, it is like a wall of sand; it shall not endure. ||49|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਰਾਮੁ  ਗਇਓ  ਰਾਵਨੁ  ਗਇਓ  ਜਾ  ਕਉ  ਬਹੁ  ਪਰਵਾਰੁ  ॥ 
रामु गइओ रावनु गइओ जा कउ बहु परवारु ॥ 
Rām ga▫i▫o rāvan ga▫i▫o jā ka▫o baho parvār. 
Raam Chand passed away, as did Raawan, even though he had lots of relatives. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਹੁ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਥਿਰੁ  ਕਛੁ  ਨਹੀ  ਸੁਪਨੇ  ਜਿਉ  ਸੰਸਾਰੁ  ॥੫੦॥ 
कहु नानक थिरु कछु नही सुपने जिउ संसारु ॥५०॥ 
Kaho Nānak thir kacẖẖ nahī supne ji▫o sansār. ||50|| 
Says Nanak, nothing lasts forever; the world is like a dream. ||50|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਚਿੰਤਾ  ਤਾ  ਕੀ  ਕੀਜੀਐ  ਜੋ  ਅਨਹੋਨੀ  ਹੋਇ  ॥ 
चिंता ता की कीजीऐ जो अनहोनी होइ ॥ 
Cẖinṯā ṯā kī kījī▫ai jo anhonī ho▫e. 
People become anxious, when something unexpected happens. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਇਹੁ  ਮਾਰਗੁ  ਸੰਸਾਰ  ਕੋ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਥਿਰੁ  ਨਹੀ  ਕੋਇ  ॥੫੧॥ 
इहु मारगु संसार को नानक थिरु नही कोइ ॥५१॥ 
Ih mārag sansār ko Nānak thir nahī ko▫e. ||51|| 
This is the way of the world, O Nanak; nothing is stable or permanent. ||51|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜੋ  ਉਪਜਿਓ  ਸੋ  ਬਿਨਸਿ  ਹੈ  ਪਰੋ  ਆਜੁ  ਕੈ  ਕਾਲਿ  ॥ 
जो उपजिओ सो बिनसि है परो आजु कै कालि ॥ 
Jo upji▫o so binas hai paro āj kai kāl. 
Whatever has been created shall be destroyed; everyone shall perish, today or tomorrow. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਾਨਕ  ਹਰਿ  ਗੁਨ  ਗਾਇ  ਲੇ  ਛਾਡਿ  ਸਗਲ  ਜੰਜਾਲ  ॥੫੨॥ 
नानक हरि गुन गाइ ले छाडि सगल जंजाल ॥५२॥ 
Nānak har gun gā▫e le cẖẖād sagal janjāl. ||52|| 
O Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and give up all other entanglements. ||52|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਦੋਹਰਾ  ॥ 
दोहरा ॥ 
Ḏohrā. 
Dohraa: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਬਲੁ  ਛੁਟਕਿਓ  ਬੰਧਨ  ਪਰੇ  ਕਛੂ  ਨ  ਹੋਤ  ਉਪਾਇ  ॥ 
बलु छुटकिओ बंधन परे कछू न होत उपाइ ॥ 
Bal cẖẖutki▫o banḏẖan pare kacẖẖū na hoṯ upā▫e. 
My strength is exhausted, and I am in bondage; I cannot do anything at all. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਹੁ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਅਬ  ਓਟ  ਹਰਿ  ਗਜ  ਜਿਉ  ਹੋਹੁ  ਸਹਾਇ  ॥੫੩॥ 
कहु नानक अब ओट हरि गज जिउ होहु सहाइ ॥५३॥ 
Kaho Nānak ab ot har gaj ji▫o hohu sahā▫e. ||53|| 
Says Nanak, now, the Lord is my Support; He will help me, as He did the elephant. ||53|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਬਲੁ  ਹੋਆ  ਬੰਧਨ  ਛੁਟੇ  ਸਭੁ  ਕਿਛੁ  ਹੋਤ  ਉਪਾਇ  ॥ 
बलु होआ बंधन छुटे सभु किछु होत उपाइ ॥ 
Bal ho▫ā banḏẖan cẖẖute sabẖ kicẖẖ hoṯ upā▫e. 
My strength has been restored, and my bonds have been broken; now, I can do everything. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਾਨਕ  ਸਭੁ  ਕਿਛੁ  ਤੁਮਰੈ  ਹਾਥ  ਮੈ  ਤੁਮ  ਹੀ  ਹੋਤ  ਸਹਾਇ  ॥੫੪॥ 
नानक सभु किछु तुमरै हाथ मै तुम ही होत सहाइ ॥५४॥ 
Nānak sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯumrai hāth mai ṯum hī hoṯ sahā▫e. ||54|| 
Nanak: everything is in Your hands, Lord; You are my Helper and Support. ||54|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸੰਗ  ਸਖਾ  ਸਭਿ  ਤਜਿ  ਗਏ  ਕੋਊ  ਨ  ਨਿਬਹਿਓ  ਸਾਥਿ  ॥ 
संग सखा सभि तजि गए कोऊ न निबहिओ साथि ॥ 
Sang sakẖā sabẖ ṯaj ga▫e ko▫ū na nib▫hi▫o sāth. 
My associates and companions have all deserted me; no one remains with me. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਹੁ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਇਹ  ਬਿਪਤਿ  ਮੈ  ਟੇਕ  ਏਕ  ਰਘੁਨਾਥ  ॥੫੫॥ 
कहु नानक इह बिपति मै टेक एक रघुनाथ ॥५५॥ 
Kaho Nānak ih bipaṯ mai tek ek ragẖunāth. ||55|| 
Says Nanak, in this tragedy, the Lord alone is my Support. ||55|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਾਮੁ  ਰਹਿਓ  ਸਾਧੂ  ਰਹਿਓ  ਰਹਿਓ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ  ॥ 
नामु रहिओ साधू रहिओ रहिओ गुरु गोबिंदु ॥ 
Nām rahi▫o sāḏẖū rahi▫o rahi▫o gur gobinḏ. 
The Naam remains; the Holy Saints remain; the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, remains. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਹੁ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਇਹ  ਜਗਤ  ਮੈ  ਕਿਨ  ਜਪਿਓ  ਗੁਰ  ਮੰਤੁ  ॥੫੬॥ 
कहु नानक इह जगत मै किन जपिओ गुर मंतु ॥५६॥ 
Kaho Nānak ih jagaṯ mai kin japi▫o gur manṯ. ||56|| 
Says Nanak, how rare are those who chant the Guru's Mantra in this world. ||56|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td>_ ਰਾਮ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਉਰ  ਮੈ  ਗਹਿਓ  ਜਾ  ਕੈ  ਸਮ  ਨਹੀ  ਕੋਇ  ॥ 
राम नामु उर मै गहिओ जा कै सम नही कोइ ॥ 
Rām nām ur mai gahi▫o jā kai sam nahī ko▫e. 
I have enshrined the Lord's Name within my heart; there is nothing equal to it. 

_</td></tr> <tr><td>_ ਜਿਹ  ਸਿਮਰਤ  ਸੰਕਟ  ਮਿਟੈ  ਦਰਸੁ  ਤੁਹਾਰੋ  ਹੋਇ  ॥੫੭॥੧॥ 
जिह सिमरत संकट मिटै दरसु तुहारो होइ ॥५७॥१॥ 
Jih simraṯ sankat mitai ḏaras ṯuhāro ho▫e. ||57||1|| 
Meditating in remembrance on it, my troubles are taken away; I have received the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan. ||57||1|| 

_</td></tr> <tr><td> ਮੁੰਦਾਵਣੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੫  ॥ 
मुंदावणी महला ५ ॥ 
Munḏāvaṇī mėhlā 5. 
Mundaavanee, Fifth Mehl: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਥਾਲ  ਵਿਚਿ  ਤਿੰਨਿ  ਵਸਤੂ  ਪਈਓ  ਸਤੁ  ਸੰਤੋਖੁ  ਵੀਚਾਰੋ  ॥ 
थाल विचि तिंनि वसतू पईओ सतु संतोखु वीचारो ॥ 
Thāl vicẖ ṯinn vasṯū pa▫ī▫o saṯ sanṯokẖ vīcẖāro. 
Upon this Plate, three things have been placed: Truth, Contentment and Contemplation. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਠਾਕੁਰ  ਕਾ  ਪਇਓ  ਜਿਸ  ਕਾ  ਸਭਸੁ  ਅਧਾਰੋ  ॥ 
अम्रित नामु ठाकुर का पइओ जिस का सभसु अधारो ॥ 
Amriṯ nām ṯẖākur kā pa▫i▫o jis kā sabẖas aḏẖāro. 
The Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of our Lord and Master, has been placed upon it as well; it is the Support of all. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਜੇ  ਕੋ  ਖਾਵੈ  ਜੇ  ਕੋ  ਭੁੰਚੈ  ਤਿਸ  ਕਾ  ਹੋਇ  ਉਧਾਰੋ  ॥ 
जे को खावै जे को भुंचै तिस का होइ उधारो ॥ 
Je ko kẖāvai je ko bẖuncẖai ṯis kā ho▫e uḏẖāro. 
One who eats it and enjoys it shall be saved. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਏਹ  ਵਸਤੁ  ਤਜੀ  ਨਹ  ਜਾਈ  ਨਿਤ  ਨਿਤ  ਰਖੁ  ਉਰਿ  ਧਾਰੋ  ॥ 
एह वसतु तजी नह जाई नित नित रखु उरि धारो ॥ 
Ėh vasaṯ ṯajī nah jā▫ī niṯ niṯ rakẖ ur ḏẖāro. 
This thing can never be forsaken; keep this always and forever in your mind. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਮ  ਸੰਸਾਰੁ  ਚਰਨ  ਲਗਿ  ਤਰੀਐ  ਸਭੁ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਬ੍ਰਹਮ  ਪਸਾਰੋ  ॥੧॥ 
तम संसारु चरन लगि तरीऐ सभु नानक ब्रहम पसारो ॥१॥ 
Ŧam sansār cẖaran lag ṯarī▫ai sabẖ Nānak barahm pasāro. ||1|| 
The dark world-ocean is crossed over, by grasping the Feet of the Lord; O Nanak, it is all the extension of God. ||1|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਲੋਕ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੫  ॥ 
सलोक महला ५ ॥ 
Salok mėhlā 5. 
Shalok, Fifth Mehl: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤੇਰਾ  ਕੀਤਾ  ਜਾਤੋ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਮੈਨੋ  ਜੋਗੁ  ਕੀਤੋਈ  ॥ 
तेरा कीता जातो नाही मैनो जोगु कीतोई ॥ 
Ŧerā kīṯā jāṯo nāhī maino jog kīṯo▫ī. 
I have not appreciated what You have done for me, Lord; only You can make me worthy. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਮੈ  ਨਿਰਗੁਣਿਆਰੇ  ਕੋ  ਗੁਣੁ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਆਪੇ  ਤਰਸੁ  ਪਇਓਈ  ॥ 
मै निरगुणिआरे को गुणु नाही आपे तरसु पइओई ॥ 
Mai nirguṇi▫āre ko guṇ nāhī āpe ṯaras pa▫i▫o▫ī. 
I am unworthy - I have no worth or virtues at all. You have taken pity on me. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਰਸੁ  ਪਇਆ  ਮਿਹਰਾਮਤਿ  ਹੋਈ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਸਜਣੁ  ਮਿਲਿਆ  ॥ 
तरसु पइआ मिहरामति होई सतिगुरु सजणु मिलिआ ॥ 
Ŧaras pa▫i▫ā mihrāmaṯ ho▫ī saṯgur sajaṇ mili▫ā. 
You took pity on me, and blessed me with Your Mercy, and I have met the True Guru, my Friend. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਨਾਨਕ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਤਾਂ  ਜੀਵਾਂ  ਤਨੁ  ਮਨੁ  ਥੀਵੈ  ਹਰਿਆ  ॥੧॥ 
नानक नामु मिलै तां जीवां तनु मनु थीवै हरिआ ॥१॥ 
Nānak nām milai ṯāŉ jīvāŉ ṯan man thīvai hari▫ā. ||1|| 
O Nanak, if I am blessed with the Naam, I live, and my body and mind blossom forth. ||1|| 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ੴ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥ 
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥ 
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ 
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਰਾਗ  ਮਾਲਾ  ॥ 
राग माला ॥ 
Rāg mālā. 
Raag Maalaa: 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਰਾਗ  ਏਕ  ਸੰਗਿ  ਪੰਚ  ਬਰੰਗਨ  ॥ 
राग एक संगि पंच बरंगन ॥ 
Rāg ek sang pancẖ barangan. 
Each Raga has five wives, 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਸੰਗਿ  ਅਲਾਪਹਿ  ਆਠਉ  ਨੰਦਨ  ॥ 
संगि अलापहि आठउ नंदन ॥ 
Sang alāpėh āṯẖ▫o nanḏan. 
and eight sons, who emit distinctive notes. 

</td></tr> <tr><td> ਪ੍ਰਥਮ  ਰਾਗ  ਭੈਰਉ  ਵੈ  ਕਰਹੀ  ॥ 
प्रथम राग भैरउ वै करही ॥ 
Paratham rāg bẖairo vai karhī. 
In the first place is Raag Bhairao. 
</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Harry Haller (Jul 29, 2011)

Bhagatsinghji, 

I do like your posts, and thank you for your compliment, but I remain a fool who finds it hard to meditate, hard to find any peace in the name of the almighty. 

I have at the moment some problems that I am fighting, (although not nearly in the same league as some people) , and at the minute, I feel more like a warrior sikh, than a saint sikh. I fight with gods name on my lips, its funny actually, in years gone, I would have prayed for gods help, or prayed for god to do this, or that, but all I pray for at the minute, is to be in consonance with the truth. To be in tune with the truth, and to respect the truth. What will be, will be, the truth will always win, the idea for me is to be on the side of the truth when the dust settles. 

One's bliss dwarfs another, yet neither sees that their bliss is that of the other. 

What you are saying here, unless I am mistaken is that bliss is truth, yet some that experience it, are not enlightened enough to realise that, confusion reigns as to where the bliss has come from, or from what action produced it. Could it be that bliss that brings on attachment is not really bliss at all?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 29, 2011)

Bhagat Singh Ji,
Thank you very much I get to your point.
What I have emphasised is that there is an ultimate conclusion given by our GuRu in Gurbani in reference to all  being mentioned.
I have made reference to this conclusion in Gurbani.
I agree we are required to meditate Gurbani sabad but Simran is of Ram Naamu only.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jul 29, 2011)

Prakashji, 

Forgive me for being curious, you sound like an incredibly wise person, what is your ultimate goal?, and what part does family life play in that goal, and can this goal assist you in your worldy responsibilities


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 29, 2011)

Could it be that bliss that brings on attachment is not bliss?... (meditate)

Then what is it? If bliss is not bliss then what we think is God, is not God? 

Is what we think, what we don't think?

Could it be that that which _is_, _is not_?

The answer to the questions cannot be stated but it is the Truth.

Notice the underlying ambiguity of the words. See how that sentence above could mean different things. One could see that as 1. the answer, 2. giving the answer, 3. pointing to the answer, or 4. no answer at all.

The answer is:
1. The answer to the questions cannot be stated but it is the Truth.
2. Truth
3. Meditate on the questions to find out the answer.
4. *blank look* What did you just say?

Anything anyone says could literally mean anything else. In an instance something means something, in an instance something means something else.

Note how this works in all fields. Some see one religion as the answer others may not see that same religion as the answer.

Why do we still hold on to language?

That's the only thing we have. Visual, verbal, bodily languages. Humans come to live through language.

Through language we are born and through language we die. Everything we do is language. Written or spoken word like "suis" is not language because the French word "suis" may not mean anything to the English speaker. Then that is not language because language is that which ALL humans do. and yet it is part of language.

We are back to your question.

Could it be that language is not language?
.
.
.
Is it not or is it a play of language?

Meditate on this Pauri of Jap Ji Sahib:
ਅਸੰਖ  ਨਾਵ  ਅਸੰਖ  ਥਾਵ  ॥
असंख नाव असंख थाव ॥
Asaŉkẖ nāv asaŉkẖ thāv.
Countless names, countless places.
ਅਗੰਮ  ਅਗੰਮ  ਅਸੰਖ  ਲੋਅ  ॥
अगम अगम असंख लोअ ॥
Agamm agamm asaŉkẖ lo▫a.
Inaccessible, unapproachable, countless celestial realms.
ਅਸੰਖ  ਕਹਹਿ  ਸਿਰਿ  ਭਾਰੁ  ਹੋਇ  ॥
असंख कहहि सिरि भारु होइ ॥
Asaŉkẖ kėhahi sir bẖār ho▫e.
Even to call them countless is to carry the weight on your head.
ਅਖਰੀ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਅਖਰੀ  ਸਾਲਾਹ  ॥
अखरी नामु अखरी सालाह ॥
Akẖrī nām akẖrī sālāh.
From the Word, comes the Naam; from the Word, comes Your Praise.
ਅਖਰੀ  ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਗੀਤ  ਗੁਣ  ਗਾਹ  ॥
अखरी गिआनु गीत गुण गाह ॥
Akẖrī gi▫ān gīṯ guṇ gāh.
From the Word, comes spiritual wisdom, singing the Songs of Your Glory.
ਅਖਰੀ  ਲਿਖਣੁ  ਬੋਲਣੁ  ਬਾਣਿ  ॥
अखरी लिखणु बोलणु बाणि ॥
Akẖrī likẖaṇ bolaṇ bāṇ.
From the Word, come the written and spoken words and hymns.
ਅਖਰਾ  ਸਿਰਿ  ਸੰਜੋਗੁ  ਵਖਾਣਿ  ॥
अखरा सिरि संजोगु वखाणि ॥
Akẖrā sir sanjog vakẖāṇ.
From the Word, comes destiny, written on one's forehead.
ਜਿਨਿ  ਏਹਿ  ਲਿਖੇ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਸਿਰਿ  ਨਾਹਿ  ॥
जिनि एहि लिखे तिसु सिरि नाहि ॥
Jin ehi likẖe ṯis sir nāhi.
But the One who wrote these Words of Destiny-no words are written on His Forehead.
ਜਿਵ  ਫੁਰਮਾਏ  ਤਿਵ  ਤਿਵ  ਪਾਹਿ  ॥
जिव फुरमाए तिव तिव पाहि ॥
Jiv furmā▫e ṯiv ṯiv pāhi.
As He ordains, so do we receive.
ਜੇਤਾ  ਕੀਤਾ  ਤੇਤਾ  ਨਾਉ  ॥
जेता कीता तेता नाउ ॥
Jeṯā kīṯā ṯeṯā nā▫o.
The created universe is the manifestation of Your Name.
ਵਿਣੁ  ਨਾਵੈ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਕੋ  ਥਾਉ  ॥
विणु नावै नाही को थाउ ॥
viṇ nāvai nāhī ko thā▫o.
Without Your Name, there is no place at all.
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ  ਕਵਣ  ਕਹਾ  ਵੀਚਾਰੁ  ॥
कुदरति कवण कहा वीचारु ॥
Kuḏraṯ kavaṇ kahā vīcẖār.
How can I describe Your Creative Power?
ਵਾਰਿਆ  ਨ  ਜਾਵਾ  ਏਕ  ਵਾਰ  ॥
वारिआ न जावा एक वार ॥
vāri▫ā na jāvā ek vār.
I cannot even once be a sacrifice to You.
ਜੋ  ਤੁਧੁ  ਭਾਵੈ  ਸਾਈ  ਭਲੀ  ਕਾਰ  ॥
जो तुधु भावै साई भली कार ॥
Jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai sā▫ī bẖalī kār.
Whatever pleases You is the only good done,
ਤੂ  ਸਦਾ  ਸਲਾਮਤਿ  ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ  ॥੧੯॥
तू सदा सलामति निरंकार ॥१९॥
Ŧū saḏā salāmaṯ nirankār. ||19||
You, Eternal and Formless One. ||19||


I do no intend to give my meaning to that pauri, although I believe it is talking about what I am talking about. Guru Nanak may well be talking of something else but notice the play of language.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 29, 2011)

continued..
I think that Bhagat Namdev ji when he saw this play of language/ play of words as the Truth then comments:

ਟੋਡੀ  ਬਾਣੀ  ਭਗਤਾਂ  ਕੀ
टोडी बाणी भगतां की
Todī baṇī bẖagṯāŉ kī
Todee, The Word Of The Devotees:
ੴ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
ਕੋਈ  ਬੋਲੈ  ਨਿਰਵਾ  ਕੋਈ  ਬੋਲੈ  ਦੂਰਿ  ॥
कोई बोलै निरवा कोई बोलै दूरि ॥
Ko▫ī bolai nirvā ko▫ī bolai ḏūr.
Some say that He is near, and others say that He is far away.
ਜਲ  ਕੀ  ਮਾਛੁਲੀ  ਚਰੈ  ਖਜੂਰਿ  ॥੧॥
जल की माछुली चरै खजूरि ॥१॥
Jal kī mācẖẖulī cẖarai kẖajūr. ||1||
*We might just as well say that the fish climbs out of the water, up the tree.* ||1||
ਕਾਂਇ  ਰੇ  ਬਕਬਾਦੁ  ਲਾਇਓ  ॥
कांइ रे बकबादु लाइओ ॥
Kāŉ▫e re bakbāḏ lā▫i▫o.
Why do you speak such nonsense?
ਜਿਨਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਪਾਇਓ  ਤਿਨਹਿ  ਛਪਾਇਓ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
जिनि हरि पाइओ तिनहि छपाइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jin har pā▫i▫o ṯinėh cẖẖapā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
One who has found the Lord, keeps quiet about it. ||1||Pause||
ਪੰਡਿਤੁ  ਹੋਇ  ਕੈ  ਬੇਦੁ  ਬਖਾਨੈ  ॥
पंडितु होइ कै बेदु बखानै ॥
Pandiṯ ho▫e kai beḏ bakẖānai.
Those who become Pandits, religious scholars, recite the Vedas,
ਮੂਰਖੁ  ਨਾਮਦੇਉ  ਰਾਮਹਿ  ਜਾਨੈ  ॥੨॥੧॥
मूरखु नामदेउ रामहि जानै ॥२॥१॥
Mūrakẖ nāmḏe▫o rāmėh jānai. ||2||1||
but foolish Naam Dayv knows only the Lord. ||2||1||

page 718


Note that Bhagat Namdev ji even though he knows the Lord is still talking even when he says that those who know keep quiet. what the?

He is pointing to the unnameable or is he?

PS just some meditation on your questions Harry ji.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 29, 2011)

HARRY HALLER Ji,
Your questions have put me in dilemma to answer.You will appreciate the fact there are certain questions which can not answered unless we become face to face.
However in short I may tell you every thing in any ones life has to be  thru the grace of SATi GuRu only.Once one gets introduced to his SATi GuRu then the whole life is automatically gets guided by SATi GuRu and all goals become meaning less and wordly affairs appear nothing and these afffairs go in an unnoticed manner.
Being Qualified Metallurgist managing a small family business along with my family members I fully enjoy the moments with my grand children.We are a joint family staying with our GuRu SGGS at home.All wordly affairs are carried with due permission from GuRu.Ji.
I am running 60 and I also had lot of fluctuations and a good lenth of struggling period.You can understand it is not that easy life in India as abroad.But with the company of SAti GuRu nothing is impossible.
I think I have said enough to make you boring.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jul 29, 2011)

I think keeping quiet about finding the lord is absolutely right! Most people would want to share their good fortune with friends and family, only, I believe each's path to the bliss of Waheguru is different and individual, almost like pointing to a huge stash of gold that has been hidden away, and trying to point people in the direction if it, but the tunnel is only big enough to fit a person of exact size, YOU. 

The best you can hope for is that people will think you are some sort of Baba, and you want money for your thoughts, and maybe ego turns you into one. Or worse, they will think you are a liar and beat you!

Sometimes there is wisdom in silence...

As for words, maybe words cannot describe what needs to be done in an adequate fashion. You play tricks with my brain Bhagatsinghji, you lead it into a vision of beautiful words, then you take them away by belittling the value of words per se. But yes, I can see the path that you have outlined, all words are ambiguous, the only way to see the correct path is to be guided by the words, but let your heart do the talking, through meditation, accepting the words at face value, and attempting to understand them, the way they were meant to be understood is impossible , without the 3rd eye looking on.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 29, 2011)

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
During the times of Bhagat Nam dev and others this was a common concept to keep quite about having known the Creator and its Grace.
But our Gurus made that clear which used to thought secret by many.
You may pl find a Sabad at pp697 in SGGs as
Jin HaRi Hirdae Naamu Na Baseo Tin Maat Keeje Hari Banjhaa  Jaitsari M 4
There is ia message in this Sabad as
Hau Balhaari SatiGuR Apane  Jini Gupatu Naamu Pargaajhaa.

So this is a great revealation by our GuRu .What was considered as secret has been revealed by SATi GuR in Gurbani.
So letus recognise exactly this SATiGuR from within Gurbani.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jul 29, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> HARRY HALLER Ji,
> Your questions have put me in dilemma to answer.You will appreciate the fact there are certain questions which can not answered unless we become face to face.
> However in short I may tell you every thing in any ones life has to be  thru the grace of SATi GuRu only.Once one gets introduced to his SATi GuRu then the whole life is automatically gets guided by SATi GuRu and all goals become meaning less and wordly affairs appear nothing and these afffairs go in an unnoticed manner.
> Being Qualified Metallurgist managing a small family business along with my family members I fully enjoy the moments with my grand children.We are a joint family staying with our GuRu Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji at home.All wordly affairs are carried with due permission from GuRu.Ji.
> ...



Prakashiji, 

I do not think you are boring at all, I think you have either managed to find what the rest of us are looking for, and rather than risk a full on debate as to whether you are correct or not, you are dripping in information on various debates as to how you have achieved this, or you have no idea and are just playing games with us. I happen to believe the former,. 

Your phonetics, which I have just managed to get used to, now have a new arrival, SAti! 

The problem is, I believe that every man must find his own way, and his own interpretation, through his own heart, in order to find, dare i say it, his own bliss blessed by the creator, and to understand this gift enough not to have attachment towards it. Do you think there is a risk by putting your faith in a third party guide, that you have taken a short cut that could possibly have diluted the effect?

Excuse my ignorance, I am just trying to figure out what it is you are standing for,


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 29, 2011)

Harry ji, that makes sense.



> but the tunnel is only big enough to fit a person of exact size, YOU.


This is why some traditions tell you to focus on yourself. They say "Find out who *you* really are"

I stumbled upon Mooji and Papaji of this tradition a few days ago. I learned that they came to know this tradition from Ramana Maharshi.

Prakash Singh ji and others talked about the Sikh tradition and continue doing on other threads.

There is a point when one sees that all traditions are the same. Then one finds it funny/depressing/blissful<insert a="" particular="" emotione.g.="" funny,="" depressing="">  how such multiplicity can arise, how all these various forms arise out of essentially nothingness.

You know world is always changing, yes?  If the world is changing, and it is _always_ doing so then that implies it is not changing. 

You see it?

_Always_ changing? 'always' is something that does not change. It is always as it is. Yet it is changing. haha

More fun with language. 0

This is named 'God's *play*' or 'Leela' (in the Hindu tradition). it can be seen whenever we go deeper into something. Whether it is language we go deeper into like Philosophers do (explicitly done by Heidegger), or going deeper into sounds in simran as the Sikh tradition or deeper into the worship or idols as done in some Hindu traditions.

Going deep into it, it's essence is known.

Bliss can then be said as the act of going deeper. As I go deep here with my words, I feel bliss, a sort of peace.</insert>


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 29, 2011)

Prakash ji,
I can see why they would be quiet about it. You know others would be seen as madmen if they talked about it. Yet another group would be seen as Gurus, Sages. The world can be funny like that.

pg 697
<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>जैतसरी महला ४ ॥ 
 Jaiṯsarī mėhlā 4. 
 Jaitsree, Fourth Mehl: 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਿਨ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਿਰਦੈ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਨ  ਬਸਿਓ  ਤਿਨ  ਮਾਤ  ਕੀਜੈ  ਹਰਿ  ਬਾਂਝਾ  ॥ 
 जिन हरि हिरदै नामु न बसिओ तिन मात कीजै हरि बांझा ॥ 
 Jin har hirḏai nām na basi▫o ṯin māṯ kījai har bāŉjẖā. 
 The Lord's Name does not abide within their hearts - their mothers should have been sterile. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਤਿਨ  ਸੁੰਞੀ  ਦੇਹ  ਫਿਰਹਿ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਨਾਵੈ  ਓਇ  ਖਪਿ  ਖਪਿ  ਮੁਏ  ਕਰਾਂਝਾ  ॥੧॥ 
 तिन सुंञी देह फिरहि बिनु नावै ओइ खपि खपि मुए करांझा ॥१॥ 
 Ŧin suñī ḏeh firėh bin nāvai o▫e kẖap kẖap mu▫e karāŉjẖā. ||1|| 
 These bodies wander  around, forlorn and abandoned, without the Name; their lives waste away,  and they die, crying out in pain. ||1|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਮੇਰੇ  ਮਨ  ਜਪਿ  ਰਾਮ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਮਾਝਾ  ॥ 
 मेरे मन जपि राम नामु हरि माझा ॥ 
 Mere man jap rām nām har mājẖā. 
 O my mind, chant the Name of the Lord, the Lord within you. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲਿ  ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ  ਪ੍ਰਭਿ  ਧਾਰੀ  ਗੁਰਿ  ਗਿਆਨੁ  ਦੀਓ  ਮਨੁ  ਸਮਝਾ  ॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
 हरि हरि क्रिपालि क्रिपा प्रभि धारी गुरि गिआनु दीओ मनु समझा ॥ रहाउ ॥ 
 Har har kirpāl kirpā parabẖ ḏẖārī gur gi▫ān ḏī▫o man samjẖā. Rahā▫o. 
 The Merciful Lord God,  Har, Har, has showered me with His Mercy; the Guru has imparted  spiritual wisdom to me, and my mind has been instructed. ||Pause|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਰਿ  ਕੀਰਤਿ  ਕਲਜੁਗਿ  ਪਦੁ  ਊਤਮੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਮਾਝਾ  ॥ 
 हरि कीरति कलजुगि पदु ऊतमु हरि पाईऐ सतिगुर माझा ॥ 
 Har kīraṯ kaljug paḏ ūṯam har pā▫ī▫ai saṯgur mājẖā. 
 In this Dark Age of Kali  Yuga, the Kirtan of the Lord's Praise brings the most noble and exalted  status; the Lord is found through the True Guru. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਉ  ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਅਪੁਨੇ  ਜਿਨਿ  ਗੁਪਤੁ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਪਰਗਾਝਾ  ॥੨॥ 
 हउ बलिहारी सतिगुर अपुने जिनि गुपतु नामु परगाझा ॥२॥ 
 Ha▫o balihārī saṯgur apune jin gupaṯ nām pargājẖā. ||2|| 
 I am a sacrifice to my True Guru, who has revealed the Lord's hidden Name to me. ||2|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਦਰਸਨੁ  ਸਾਧ  ਮਿਲਿਓ  ਵਡਭਾਗੀ  ਸਭਿ  ਕਿਲਬਿਖ  ਗਏ  ਗਵਾਝਾ  ॥ 
 दरसनु साध मिलिओ वडभागी सभि किलबिख गए गवाझा ॥ 
 Ḏarsan sāḏẖ mili▫o vadbẖāgī sabẖ kilbikẖ ga▫e gavājẖā. 
 By great good fortune, I obtained the Blessed Vision of the Darshan of the Holy; it removes all stains of sin. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਸਾਹੁ  ਪਾਇਆ  ਵਡ  ਦਾਣਾ  ਹਰਿ  ਕੀਏ  ਬਹੁ  ਗੁਣ  ਸਾਝਾ  ॥੩॥ 
 सतिगुरु साहु पाइआ वड दाणा हरि कीए बहु गुण साझा ॥३॥ 
 Saṯgur sāhu pā▫i▫ā vad ḏāṇā har kī▫e baho guṇ sājẖā. ||3|| 
 I have found the True Guru, the great, all-knowing King; He has shared with me the many Glorious Virtues of the Lord. ||3|| </td></tr></tbody></table>ਜਿਨ  ਕਉ  ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ  ਕਰੀ  ਜਗਜੀਵਨਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਉਰਿ  ਧਾਰਿਓ  ਮਨ  ਮਾਝਾ  ॥ 
जिन कउ क्रिपा करी जगजीवनि हरि उरि धारिओ मन माझा ॥ 
Jin ka▫o kirpā karī jagjīvan har ur ḏẖāri▫o man mājẖā. 
Those, unto whom the Lord,  the Life of the world, has shown Mercy, enshrine Him within their  hearts, and cherish Him in their minds. 

 ਧਰਮ  ਰਾਇ  ਦਰਿ  ਕਾਗਦ  ਫਾਰੇ  ਜਨ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਲੇਖਾ  ਸਮਝਾ  ॥੪॥੫॥ 
धरम राइ दरि कागद फारे जन नानक लेखा समझा ॥४॥५॥ 
Ḏẖaram rā▫e ḏar kāgaḏ fāre jan Nānak lekẖā samjẖā. ||4||5|| 
The Righteous Judge of  Dharma, in the Court of the Lord, has torn up my papers; servant Nanak's  account has been settled. ||4||5||


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 29, 2011)

HARRY HALLAR Ji,
I thank you very much for your nice response to my personal views.
My feed back on some of your question is as

1....I fully understand what I am going to present.My understanding is fully based on Gramatical understanding of Gurbani words.I do understand the limitations of such understanding.My aim is just to bring in the notice of learned Sangat just to analyse this aspect of Gurbani too and see how we can make a better understanding of Gurbani.

2....I differ to believethat every one must find his own way and his own interpretation in order to find his own bliss.Dear Harry ji this is not applicable in the case of Gurbani understanding.
Here we are required to understand what GuRu is telling us to do or follow.Bliss is the result of grace of GuRu only So our affection ,Love and devotion to the Bani of GuR will create the favourable conditions for the grace of GuRu to make anyone blissful.

3....There is definitely a great risk  by putting your faith in a third party. Basically anyone is required to have direct relationship with the CREATOR{GuR JOTi} thru its Naamu.There is very little space  for any third party Guide.
Initially you may feel so and take the guidance from someone who is able to give the guidance from within Gurbani. Lateron when you become good enough to understand the language of GuRu of your own then there is hardly any need for any third party Guide.Otherwise How will you be able to concede :Tohee Mohee Antar Kaisaa....
My personal feeling is that always consider and make SGGS as your only true Guide and it is true too

Prakash.S.Bagga.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 30, 2011)

Hmm...

One wise man says "You must find your own path"
The other wise man says "Surrender to the Guru's path"

Go deeper into this. 

One says: Find *your* own path. Who is this "you" that is going to find a path?
The other says: Follow *Guru*'s Path. Who is this "Guru" who's path we are to follow?

How do we understand this wisdom? How do we put the two together?

:sippingcoffeemunda:


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 30, 2011)

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
Very interesting hidden question in your message,
You are "A WAVE".
GuRu is an Ocean of SIMILAR WAVES.
So there is only ONE WAY .

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 30, 2011)

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
There is a sabad at pp1321 in SGGS as

'Prabh Keejae Kirpaa Nidhaan Hum Hari Gun Gaaveng ae,
Hau Tumari Karau Nit Aas prabh Mohi Kab Gul Laweng ae"  Raagu Kaliyan M 4

Prakash S Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 30, 2011)

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਕਲਿਆਨ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੪  ॥ 
 कलिआन महला ४ ॥ 
 Kali▫ān mėhlā 4. 
 Kalyaan, Fourth Mehl: 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਕੀਜੈ  ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ  ਨਿਧਾਨ  ਹਮ  ਹਰਿ  ਗੁਨ  ਗਾਵਹਗੇ  ॥ 
 प्रभ कीजै क्रिपा निधान हम हरि गुन गावहगे ॥ 
 Parabẖ kījai kirpā niḏẖān ham har gun gāvhage. 
 O God, Treasure of Mercy, please bless me, that I may sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਉ  ਤੁਮਰੀ  ਕਰਉ  ਨਿਤ  ਆਸ  ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਮੋਹਿ  ਕਬ  ਗਲਿ  ਲਾਵਹਿਗੇ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
 हउ तुमरी करउ नित आस प्रभ मोहि कब गलि लावहिगे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
 Ha▫o ṯumrī kara▫o niṯ ās parabẖ mohi kab gal lāvhige. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
 I always place my hopes in You; O God, when will you take me in Your Embrace? ||1||Pause|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਮ  ਬਾਰਿਕ  ਮੁਗਧ  ਇਆਨ  ਪਿਤਾ  ਸਮਝਾਵਹਿਗੇ  ॥ 
 हम बारिक मुगध इआन पिता समझावहिगे ॥ 
 Ham bārik mugaḏẖ i▫ān piṯā samjāvhige. 
 I am a foolish and ignorant child; Father, please teach me! 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਸੁਤੁ  ਖਿਨੁ  ਖਿਨੁ  ਭੂਲਿ  ਬਿਗਾਰਿ  ਜਗਤ  ਪਿਤ  ਭਾਵਹਿਗੇ  ॥੧॥ 
 सुतु खिनु खिनु भूलि बिगारि जगत पित भावहिगे ॥१॥ 
 Suṯ kẖin kẖin bẖūl bigār jagaṯ piṯ bẖāvhige. ||1|| 
 Your child makes mistakes again and again, but still, You are pleased with him, O Father of the Universe. ||1|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਜੋ  ਹਰਿ  ਸੁਆਮੀ  ਤੁਮ  ਦੇਹੁ  ਸੋਈ  ਹਮ  ਪਾਵਹਗੇ  ॥ 
 जो हरि सुआमी तुम देहु सोई हम पावहगे ॥ 
 Jo har su▫āmī ṯum ḏeh so▫ī ham pāvhage. 
 Whatever You give me, O my Lord and Master - that is what I receive. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਮੋਹਿ  ਦੂਜੀ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਠਉਰ  ਜਿਸੁ  ਪਹਿ  ਹਮ  ਜਾਵਹਗੇ  ॥੨॥ 
 मोहि दूजी नाही ठउर जिसु पहि हम जावहगे ॥२॥ 
 Mohi ḏūjī nāhī ṯẖa▫ur jis pėh ham jāvhage. ||2|| 
 There is no other place where I can go. ||2|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਜੋ  ਹਰਿ  ਭਾਵਹਿ  ਭਗਤ  ਤਿਨਾ  ਹਰਿ  ਭਾਵਹਿਗੇ  ॥ 
 जो हरि भावहि भगत तिना हरि भावहिगे ॥ 
 Jo har bẖāvėh bẖagaṯ ṯinā har bẖāvhige. 
 Those devotees who are pleasing to the Lord - the Lord is pleasing to them. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਜੋਤੀ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਮਿਲਾਇ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਰਲਿ  ਜਾਵਹਗੇ  ॥੩॥ 
 जोती जोति मिलाइ जोति रलि जावहगे ॥३॥ 
 Joṯī joṯ milā▫e joṯ ral jāvhage. ||3|| 
 Their light merges into the Light; the lights are merged and blended together. ||3|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਹਰਿ  ਆਪੇ  ਹੋਇ  ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ  ਆਪਿ  ਲਿਵ  ਲਾਵਹਿਗੇ  ॥ 
 हरि आपे होइ क्रिपालु आपि लिव लावहिगे ॥ 
 Har āpe ho▫e kirpāl āp liv lāvhige. 
 The Lord Himself has shown mercy; He lovingly attunes me to Himself. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਨੁ  ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਸਰਨਿ  ਦੁਆਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਲਾਜ  ਰਖਾਵਹਿਗੇ  ॥੪॥੬॥  ਛਕਾ  ੧  ॥ 
 जनु नानकु सरनि दुआरि हरि लाज रखावहिगे ॥४॥६॥ छका १ ॥ 
 Jan Nānak saran ḏu▫ār har lāj rakẖāvhige. ||4||6|| Cẖẖakā 1. 
 Servant Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Door of the Lord, who protects his honor. ||4||6|| One Chhakaa|| 

Hmm... what is it trying us lead to?
 </td></tr></tbody></table>


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 30, 2011)

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
This Sabad seems to leading us to a Path to Hari only

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 30, 2011)

Prakash ji, 
What an odd thing. The Guru who we claim know everything, himself says that he is foolish. In that shabad of Bhagat Namdev, the Bhagat says that he is foolish. And there are many shabads like this. 

Is it through their understanding, their knowledge of God, of everything, that they came to know they are foolish?
They can't be saying it for effect or to create influence. We know Gurus are Truthful. So what they are expressing is some kind of truth.

Again...We follow, we are Sikhs of those who go on saying that they are foolish. Something to think about.

Is it that *we see* something in them? So it's is *us* who then sees wisdom in the *Guru*, while the Guru goes on calling himself foolish.

We are clearly not enlightened. It is Guru that is enlightened! Guru is literally the know-it-all, he knows everything. This Guru says the wise (Guru) are foolish.

So where is the wisdom coming from? This would be a revolutionary thing, if we could figure out the source of this wisdom!

And what about those *whom we declare foolish*?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 31, 2011)

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
The first thing  to understand is that who is GuRu in Gurbani.?All have refered to this GuRu as Omnipotent,Omnipresent and Omniscient.This GuRu is eternal.
The Bani is of Complete GuR as should be clear from a quote
"Wahu Wahu PooRe GuR Kee Pooree Banee.
PooRe GuR Te Upajee Sach Samaani" Rahao
Here it is important to understand that Nanak and all others refer themselelves as Daas of Hari.:GuR JoT
Since GuR Jot is complete in all respect so in reference of personal capacity they consider themselves as Moorakh before GuR JoT.
Since Gurbani is being read and listened by persons  of different levels of wisdom as provided by the Creator so anybody  automatically would refer himself as Moorakh while reading this.So this word eliminanes the effect of any Ego while readind .talking and understaning about GuR Jot.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 31, 2011)

Great discourse Harry ji, Prakash.s.Bagga ji and Bhagat Singh ji.  I make some observations with due respect for all.

We need to recognize what is the relationship between us and Guruji.

We are first and foremost and for ever, Sikhs.


Sikhs being; students, learners
 Our Guru ji are forever our teacher.


Guru ji are our teacher
Sikhs are blessed that they have a teacher for life and for free
A person is not born who could even pay for such services nor would one be ever born
 As we learn more and more, we start to see what our Guru ji saw centuries ago.  We are enthralled, we are happy, we want to call Guru ji with different and reverence based names and qualities.  However if we want to be true to our teachers, our Guru ji, we need to continue and for ever treat them as teachers.  As soon as you ignore their continuous class and teaching that is there day and night, you will stop learning, you have turned your back on a teacher that is there for you for ever.

Be respectful, give accolades, be graceful but your Guru ji would be utmost unhappy if instead of continuous learning to seek answers you start to believe you found all the answers.  Your Guru ji would be very happy if you reach a stage of a very bright student who can write questions for an exam that one cannot immediately answer oneself.  You struggle, you work hard, you sweat it out, you get stuck.  Time to check with your Guru ji and get unstuck.  But don’t get in the habit of looking for easy answers all the time to questions of your living.  Such should naturally flow from your own mind, your own understanding and from within you.  Guru ji will put the blessing on your head as a sign of well done and the love that great teacher show towards their students.

However, there is another student who will say I am just going to keep repeating and doing exactly what Guru ji has stated, uttered in their lessons.  Surely I cannot go wrong, I will pass and Guru ji will be very pleased that I am a perfect follower.  Only an ordinary teacher is happy with such state of affairs, our Guru ji are not in this category.  They don’t need your support to show them that you follow and do exactly per letter of the lesson.  You have misunderstood.  Guru ji wants you to use your brain that the creator has blessed you with.  That is what makes teachers happy and they feel fulfilled.

Teachers know, so do our Guru ji, that no two people are alike in their understanding in any given instance in time for all there is to know.  So students even within the same class learn in different ways, understand in different ways while still understanding the lesson.

Sikhism does not create robots, Sikhism creates thinking people who are so well assisted by our Guru ji that you got to be pretty awful to not get ahead and do so at a great pace in your understanding and living that follows such. 



> 2....*I differ to believe that every one must find his own way and his own interpretation in order to find his own bliss.* Dear Harry ji this is not applicable in the case of Gurbani understanding._
> 
> Prakash.s.bagga ji I find the highlighted parts of your words not consistent with my understanding as I have written earlier in this post.  Bliss is not an end game, it is a by product of understanding within and without and living with such.  Since you will continue to learn and there will be always need to learn, there cannot be so called bliss of ignorance that you don’t know about yet._​Here we are required to understand what GuRu is *telling us to do or follow*. Bliss is the result of grace of GuRu only. So our affection ,Love and devotion to the Bani of GuR will create the favourable conditions for the grace of GuRu to make anyone blissful._Remember that first and foremost, Guru ji is teaching you.  Guru ji is not asking you to do parroting, Guru ji is not asking you to think alike or follow some words.  Guru ji insists that you get to the essence of the teachings so you don’t have to keep looking at your class notes or keep raising your hand in the class.  Guru ji is interested in enabling you to think, to understand and much less to follow._
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...hism-and-feelings-of-bliss-10.html#post150356​
> ...


 


> *Bhagat Singh ji*:  Again...We follow, we are Sikhs of those who go on saying that they are foolish. Something to think about._
> 
> Bhagat Singh ji you raise a marvelous point.  Why would any one say such a thing at the stature of our Guru ji?  Is it not just to emphasize the infinite that cannot be learnt and is in the first line or mool mantar.  Does anyone believe that Guru ji will stop thinking or otherwise not engage their mind.  Again and again Guru ji in Gurbani while guiding us students tell us, don’t assume you are going to know all, don’t try to understand all, it is infinite, continue to develop your understanding so that you understand it well, even I will call myself foolish if you doubt this._
> 
> ...


I hope above is not too long.

Sat Sri Akal.​


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 31, 2011)

AMBARSARIA Ji,
I am certainly impressed the way you elaborate the message.
Personally I seek one clarification from your goodself.The clarification is related to the reference waves in Gurbani.
Quite often I come across the word ..TARANG. in Gurbani.What meaning I should take for this word TARANG ? I consider the meaning of The word TARANG as Waves.If you can guide me some other meaning for this word I may consider to make use of that instead Waves so that I feel rectified for the meaning of this word.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jul 31, 2011)

Ambersariaji, 

Many thanks for your kind words of wisdom and information. Yourself and Prakashji seem to be almost opposites in some interpretation of the SGGS ji. You both put forward very good points, but for me, and with respect to Prakashji, I do not believe that the SGGS ji, was meant to be so hard to understand and with so much mystery to it. I don't think this is like some Indiana Jones film where the truth lies in the secret decoder that we have to steal from the nazis. I have seen in both Prakashji's posts and Balwinderji's posts evidence of a complete bliss that can be present for hours, once the decoding has been carried out, although I think this bliss is very real, I am thinking that perhaps this is not the bliss the Gurus meant us to find. Could it be like using cough mixture to get high? I think this bliss is addictive, and I think it turns people into slaves to the bliss, rather than balancing bliss with real life, 

In an effort at reconciling all the various thoughts on the matter, I accepted the notion that obviously given all the different interpretations, each could find his own bliss in his own way through the SGGS ji. 

I now realise that this may not be correct, Prakashji talks not of consonance or any real material to assist you in the real world, but of the bonding with the 'big light', I accept the notion that we are all little lights waiting to bond with the big light, but you state that bliss is in the journey , whereas prakashji seems to intimate it is waiting at the end. 

I suppose that is my position on the subject, dear prakashji, if I have got your thoughts wrong, please feel free to correct me


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 31, 2011)

HARRY HALLER Ji,
In the present scenario of interpretations as envisaged your stand is correct.
Thank you very much for your nice and pleasant remarks,
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Jul 31, 2011)

Prakashji, 

If my wife ever leaves me, my business folds, my parents die, and my dogs run away, you will find me sitting outside your front door with my hands folded. 

I do not think the path you have chosen is compatible completely with 'life'. It is mountain top sikhism, but that is not to say there is anything wrong in that, if anything I feel you have to be stronger than the rest of us, to avoid attachment to bliss. 

I think you have great wisdom, and I respect anyone who goes to great lengths to find the truth, Sat Sri Akal


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 31, 2011)

Hahaha

Harry ji, when that happens I hope you realize you took the same path as Prakash ji and just called it something else. Ended up in some location which you thought was different than Prakash ji's location.

It is like Prakash ji puts it, it's all waves. Lots of movements. Our whole life is movement. The waves continuously do the same thing. They are LOOPING. It is a one continuous loop (ocean, universe) with infinite number of smaller loops (galaxies, stars, solar-systems, planets, people, moelecules, atoms, sub-atomic particles). One astronomical dance composed of subatomic dances!

:interestedmunda:

This smiley represents our life, and does it very well. What can we learn from it?


Notice I just called waves, movement and then loop and then dance. What was the actual thing?

The Gurus after gaining enlightenment say they are foolish. What was the actual thing?

What is the reality?

Hahaha  peacesign

Reality *is*.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jul 31, 2011)

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
We have only option of making Ardaasi before SATiGuRu ji as

1...Visar Nahi Daatar Apnaa Naamu Dehu
    Gun Gaawan Din Raat Nanak Chao  Ehu

2...Ehu Ardaasi Hamaaree Swaami Visar Naahee Sukh Daate..pp747

3....Teeno Taap Niwaranhaaraa Dukh hantaa Sukh Raasi
     Taako Bighan Naa Kou Laage Jaaki Prabh Aage Ardaasi

So we should always ask for  the help of Sati GuRu in every circumstances of life.
There is no other way.

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 31, 2011)

(I continue to contemplate this thread. Notice the wave-, movement-, loop-, dance-like nature of a contemplation.)

So Reality is.

And notice you cannot think about that, even though the gut reaction is  to start analyzing it.
"what is reality?"
"is it this?" 
"is it that?"

 You'll find that every thought takes you out of  it. Each thought fails miserably to express the reality.

 I hope you see this failure of thought. 

You sit quietly in a room and try to do nothing. You'll immediately find yourself thinking! *Notice how each thought fails,* *otherwise why would there be a need for more thoughts?*
*cough*each post fails miserably, otherwise why would there be a need for more posts?*cough*

 You'll notice you cannot do anything to recover from that failure. You  keep thinking about that failure to express reality, and with every  thought there is more failure. 

With thoughts you keep trying to amend the failure of previous thoughts.  In the process, more failures have arisen that must be amended. More  loop-holes are discovered that must be patched.

The contemplation continues. "Gotta think harder." 

Every instinct in your wants to express  reality. You notice thought fails. Failure to amend the failure.

You'll even want to tell others of this reality.

 If it is reality why don't they agree with you?

 This is the human dilemma, duality, the hard-to-understand mystery.

 Everyone knows what is true. But can never know whether the other knows it.

 They express it to another and hear from them "No, I know the Truth".  They then parrot the same thing back in different language "No, I know  the Truth".

But in their hearts they both know the truth. *Why is it that one's truth appears different to the other? *

Even to the point when one listens to the other person's truth, one thinks the other is lying! "Selfish bas****."

 So who is the intelligent and who is the foolish? *I give up.* I cannot tell. I surrender to it! 

The contemplation is over. One finds bliss.


 Thank you for meditating with me. 

Reality *is*.

... and the contemplation starts again... gingerteakaur
------
Prakash ji,
Forgive me. I was still typing as you posted.

I agree that ardaas, a 'mental bow' to the Satiguru is perhaps the only way.


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## Ambarsaria (Jul 31, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> AMBARSARIA Ji,
> I am certainly impressed the way you elaborate the message.
> Personally I seek one clarification from your goodself.The clarification is related to the reference waves in Gurbani.
> Quite often I come across the word ..TARANG. in Gurbani.What meaning I should take for this word TARANG ? I consider the meaning of The word TARANG as Waves.If you can guide me some other meaning for this word I may consider to make use of that instead Waves so that I feel rectified for the meaning of this word.
> Prakash.s.Bagga


Prakash.s.Bagga ji let us review a shabad(s) if you can provide a reference.  I will happily post it from srigranth.org including my notes.

By the way, we are all students and Guru ji expects us to work collaboratively to further our learning.  This cyber sangat is one way of doing this which may not be physically possible (India, UK, Canada, Australia Sikh students talking together). mundahug

Sat Sri Akal.


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## seeker3k (Aug 1, 2011)

Bhagat Singh Ji,

This is the first time heard 52 words. Can you please explain to me what 52 words mean? Is it words of lipi or slok?


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 1, 2011)

SEEKER 3K
52 words  are the words of Lipi.
So the heading of the Bani is  Gauree Bawan Akharee M 5 pp250-262 SGGS
There are 55 Saloks in the Bani.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## seeker3k (Aug 1, 2011)

Thanks Prakash Ji,

But the sloke Bhagat Singh ji wrote is of Kabir not Nanak's.


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## Ambarsaria (Aug 1, 2011)

seeker3k said:


> Thanks Prakash Ji,
> 
> But the sloke Bhagat Singh ji wrote is of Kabir not Nanak's.


Just to keep correct,



> ਰਾਗ ਗਉੜੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ 'ਬਾਵਨ-ਅਖੱਰੀ' (੫੨ ਅੱਖਰਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਬਾਣੀ)।
> ਗਉੜੀ  ਬਾਵਨ  ਅਖਰੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੫  ॥
> http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=250&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=1


Kabir ji also below,



> ਰਾਗੁ  ਗਉੜੀ  ਪੂਰਬੀ  ਬਾਵਨ  ਅਖਰੀ  ਕਬੀਰ  ਜੀਉ  ਕੀ
> रागु गउड़ी पूरबी बावन अखरी कबीर जीउ की
> Rāg ga▫oṛī pūrbī bāvan akẖrī Kabīr jī▫o kī
> Raag Gauree Poorbee, Baawan Akhree Of Kabeer Jee:
> ...


Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 1, 2011)

SEEKER 3K Ji,
The message related to Bawan Akahar by Bhagat singh ji is from 

Rag Gauree Poorabee Bawan Akharee Kabir Jeo   pp340SGGS 

This Bani is without Saloks.This Bani is also related to the words of Lipi.

Prakash.S.Bagga
.


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 1, 2011)

Seeker ji, 
Bawan akhree is meditation on letters. Through that meditation wisdom is gained that was then translated into words (rather unsuccessfully as Bhagat Kabir points out right in the beginning). You can come to know that wisdom though meditation on any letters, words, etc. And since the words cannot capture the 'Eternal Letter' (what Kabir ji calls it), meditation on them is crucial.

I posted the last concluding bit (so to speak) of the writing. At this time, after contemplating on letters, Bhagat Kabir comes to the conclusion that letters are not so important, what is important is the Eternal Letter, the Truth behind them. That Truth which is gained through meditation (e.g. on letters).


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## prakash.s.bagga (Aug 1, 2011)

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
From Gurbani we  get a very very clear message from our GuRu ji as

"Prabh Kaa Simran Sabh Te Oochaa.".....Sukhmani Sahib ji

This is what we are required to bring in our practice. 

How this should be done,we can look at the message from a Sabad at pp972
Raagu Ramkalee Naamdev Jeo

"Man Raam Naamaa Bedhiale,Jaisae Kank Kalaa Chitu Mandiyale..Rahao

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Aug 2, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Hahaha
> 
> Harry ji, when that happens I hope you realize you took the same path as Prakash ji and just called it something else. Ended up in some location which you thought was different than Prakash ji's location.
> 
> ...



I have started to embrace humility to the point that my wife has now several times raised her eyebrow at me and asked me if I am being sarcastic. 

Its hard not to have a personal perspective on what we as individuals need and require from sikhism, the question of bliss being attainable is clearly a possibility given the wisdom and knowledge contained in some of the posts I have read. You know in medicine, there are many types of doctors, similarly it seems in sikhi there are those that favour seva, some favour simran, some are nihangs, some in gaining as much wisdom out of the words as possible, in that respect we are all different, possibly because of our own individual needs and circumstances. 

My own conclusion, at this present time, and for me,  is that true bliss is achieved by accepting the hukam and finding pleasure in using our brains as directed by the creator, whether it be simran, seva, pain, suffering, happyness, too see it all as divine will, and not only accept it, but accept it as good. 

To that end, bliss within sikhism may be the ability to find pleasure in everything that is the will of the creator, the bliss of acceptance?


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## BhagatSingh (Aug 2, 2011)

You are right. At the end of the day, whatever it is, is being expressed into a vessel. And it is going to get shaped by the potter in a particular way.

There is a kind of bliss in everything it seems.

Contemplate this shabad provided by Prakash Singh ji.
Hmm.. it seems srigranth.org is stopped working now, maybe some other time then.


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## seeker3k (Aug 3, 2011)

dear bhagat Singh ji,

Can yoi please list those sloks u wrote. I some how can not get it now. I wish to read it in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. my email is *PERSONAL DETAILS REMOVED AS IT IS NOT SAFE PRACTICE. PLEASE USE PM MESSAGING SERVICE. FINDINGMYWAY*

thanks


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