# The Doctrine: Manmukh And Gurmukh



## Original (Mar 12, 2018)

Dear All

Humankind's irrational nature is very difficult to explain if you maintain that human intelligence [manmukh] evolved to solve complex problems, where clear, logical thinking should offer the advantage. The doctrine manmukh v gurmukh is to that end, an explanation offering existential solace, where it attempts to bridge the gap between "reason n experience".

Enjoy the read below !

Thank you

ੴ
Gurbani.org
Reflections On Gurbani
*GURMUKH AND MANMUKH*
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਸੋ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਏ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਥਾਇ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥੨੬॥: Gurmukh bolahi so thaai paae. 
Manmukh kishu thaai n paaee ||26|: One who has become the Gurmukh, 
what he speaks is approved (by the Guru/God). What the Manmukh says
is not approved (ਪਰਵਾਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ). ||26|| (sgss 758). 
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The Gurbani (Sri Guru Granth Sahib, SGGS) divides all human beings into two categories — ਗੁਰਮੁਖ (the Gurmukhs) and ਮਨਮੁਖ (the Manmukhs). To say it otherwise, as repeatedly indicated in the SGGS, there are only two different groups of people living together on earth: the  _Gurmukhs_ (the Spiritual Beings, the followers of the Truth and the truthful living, ...) and the _Manmukhs_ (the materialists, self-willed, the deniers of the Truth and the truthful living ... ).


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਹਾ ਲੈ ਗਏ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਚਲੇ ਮੂਲੁ ਗਵਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੯॥: Gurmukhi laahaa lai gaye manmukh chale moolu gavaai jeeou ||19||: Those who have become the Gurmukhs (Spiritual Beings...), reap their (Spiritual) Profits (of Naam, Gurmat: _Aatam Giaan_...) and leave, while the Mmanmukhs (self-willed...) lose their Mool and depart. ||19|| (sggs 74). 
Accordingly, these two terms appear again and again in the Gurbani. Like many other terms that appear in the Gurbani, these two names also have been widely misunderstood. Many define them based on their own foolishness or fool-o-sophy, rather than the _Gurmat_ (Divine Knowledge of the SGGS). Consequently, both of these names appear to have a general meaning as understood by the deluded minds, and also a very special and specific meaning as indicated by the _Gurmat_. 

With the help of the Divine Guide of the Gurbani, this Reflection will attempt to briefly reflect on as to how the Gurmukh and the Manmukh is defined in the SGGS. Any other definition of these terms from sources other than the SGGS holds no validity or significance to a true Sikh (seeker of the Truth). The reason being is that, out of curiosity, although a Sikh may compare other scriptures or _Granths_ or writings with the SGGS, however, he will consider it absolutely unnecessary to compare the infallible Divine Knowledge of the SGGS with them. 

The Gurmukh

A Gurmukhs is a virtuous type of person whom the Gurbani calls Divine. He is Spiritually positioned, naturally (_Sahaj_). Throughout the SGGS, the Gurbani defines Gurmukhs as Spiritual Beings who live by  _Gurmat_ (the Wisdom of the _Shabad-Guru_). 

In nutshell, the Gurmukh is linked to his Mool within (ਮੂਲ, Source, Origin Truth...), and ever remains so; he is contented in all situations (_Sach Santokhee_); he is the follower of the Truth; his mind is linked to _Antar-Aatmaa; his_ _Akal (ਅਕਲ , _wisdom, intellect, reason, etc., follows the Gurbani; he restrains his mind instead of following his mind; his state is that of "ਇਕ ਮਨਿ ਇਕ ਚਿਤਿ " - _Ik Mani Ik Chiti_; he is detached in the midst of Maya - ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਚ ਉਦਾਸੀ; he is established in Viveka-budhi - ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰਮਤ ਦੀ ਪੂਰੀ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੈ; he knows all the "Way of the soul" ("ਜਾਨੈ ਆਤਮ ਕੀ ਰਹਤ", ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ, ਅਮਲੀ ਜੀਵਨ, ਹੁਕਮੀ ਜੀਵਨ); he is _Jeevan Mukat_ (living Liberated or Enlightened); he is Aatam or Brahm Giaanee; he is established in _Chauthaa Pada or Turiyaa Avasthaa_ (_Tenth Gate, Sahaj Avasthaa_ - Natural State of Being; _Sunn Samaadhi, _ਆਤਮਕ ਅਡੋਲਤਾ, _Shabad-Surti_, etc.), saintly nature even though he may deal with countless unsaintly people...

A Gurmukh is a Self-Realized person, completely free of the false ego-sense (_Haume_) and its menacing faults (_Bikaars_: lust, anger, greed,attachment, pride and their countless variations).  Since the Gurmukh has killed his false ego-sense (Haume), His mind is Pure (unconditioned; devoid of any "filth" of Bikaars, Maya, ignorance, etc.). 


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ਆਇ ॥: Gurmukh vichahu houmai jaai || Gurmukh mail n laagai aai ||: By becoming the Gurmukh, egotism (Haume) departs from within. By becoming the Gurmukh, filth (of Haume or egotism) does not come and stick (sggs 230). 
ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਿਮਰ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਅਧੇਰੁ ਚੁਕਾਇਆ ॥: Nanak Gurmukh giaan praapat hovai timar agiaan andher chukaaiaa: O Nanak, the spiritual wisdom (ਉੱਚੀ ਸਮਝ, etc.) is attained by becoming the Gurmukh, and the pitch-black darkness of ignorance is dispelled (sggs 512).
In nutshell, a Gurmukh is a person situated at the platform of Transcendental Consciousness. Hence, he is the Divine Soul, established in his Pure Being (_Joti-Svaroopa_) within. Internally he has surrendered his false ego-sense to his Mool (Source, Origin...) with one hundred percent involvement of his body, mind and intellect. He has all the Divine Virtues which are found in a godly or a Holy person.


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਬਦਿ ਕਸਵਟੀ ਲਾਇ ॥ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਨਾਲਿ ਝਗੜਾ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਨਾਲਿ ਸਥ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਮੰਝਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥: Guramukh aapanaa manu maariaa sabad kasavatee laai. Mann hee naal jhagarraa mann hee naal sath mann hee manjh samaai: Applying the Touchstone of the Shabad, by becoming the Gurmukh, the Gurmukh conqueres his mind (prevents it from falling in love with Maya, etc.). He fights with his mind (its evil inclinations: ਬਿਕਾਰ-ਬਿਰਤੀ), he settles with his mind (make his mind understand), and he becomes immersed (in the auspicious nature of: ਸ਼ੁਭ-ਬਿਰਤੀ) his mind (sggs 87).
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਹਜੁ ਹੈ ਮਨੁ ਚੜਿਆ ਦਸਵੈ ਆਕਾਸਿ ॥ ਤਿਥੈ ਊਂਘ ਨ ਭੁਖ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਖ ਵਾਸੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਵਿਆਪਤ ਨਹੀ ਜਿਥੈ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ॥੧੬॥: Gurmukhi antar sahaj hai manu charriaa dasavai aakaas ...: Upon becoming the Gurmukh, Intuitive Poise (_Sahaj_, ਆਤਮਕ ਅਡੋਲਤਾ) awakens within; then his mind ascends to the Tenth Plane - Dasam Duaar (where nine holes of body have no effect). (In this State) there is no sleep or hunger (of the love of Maya); they dwell in the Peace (ਆਤਮਕ ਅਨੰਦ) of the Amrit Name of God. O Nanak, pain and pleasure do not afflict anyone, (in those hearts) where the Light of the Lord, the Supreme Soul, illuminates ||16|| (sggs 1414).
 Call him a Self-realized person, God-realized, _Shabad_-realized or _Naam_-realized, Spiritual Being, Wise Man, a householder, a Holy person, or any other name you like. He may externally appear to be irreligious, not well cultured, or not learned. However, he is one hundred percent established in Truth. As indicated in the Gurbani, such Pure Beings are very rare — one out of millions.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਰੰਗਾਵਲੇ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਭੋਗੁ ॥੩॥: Gurmukh Sabad rangaavale ahinis Hari ras bhog ||3||: Who become the Gurmukhs are imbued with God's Name; day and night, they enjoy elixir (of the Naam; for them the Naam becomes the spiritual food) ||3|| (sggs 63).
ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਆਰਸੀ ਕੋਈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਖੈ ॥ ਮੋਰਚਾ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ਜਾ ਹਉਮੈ ਸੋਖੈ ॥ ਅਨਹਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਜਾਏ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੪॥: Ihu manu a{censored}e koee Gurmukhi vekhai ...: This mind is like a mirror (or looking-glass, through which one can see his Mool, Source, Originality, Authentic Nature, Jot-Svaroop, ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ, etc., but); hardly any by becoming the Gurmukh (Spiritual Being...) sees himself in it. The rust (of ego or Haume, Maya...) does not stick to (the mind of him who becomes the Gurmukh and) burns his ego (and, with ego burnt, he can see himself through this mind-mirror). The Unstruck Melody of the Bani, the Pure Shabad resounds (within the Gurmukh); through the Gur-Shabad, (the Gurmukh) remains absorbed in the Truth ||4|| (sggs 115).
ਕੋਟਨ ਮੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੋਊ ਨਾਰਾਇਨੁ ਜਿਹ ਚੀਤਿ ॥੨੪॥: Kotan mai Nanak kou narain jih cheet ||24||: Rare is the one amongst millions, who enshrines Divine in his mind, O Nanak ||24|| (sggs 1427).
The Gurmukhs lead Spiritual Life (also called Divine or Eternal Life) of non-attachment, purity and true contentment (_Sat Santokh_). They understand that only by knowing one's True Nature ("_Joti-svaroopa_") one can overcome material afflictions, and become eternally blissful. Hence, the Gurmukhs with Spiritual outlook spend their time and energy on the Spiritual path (_Aatam-Giaan_) eradicating "I-am-ness", Shabad-Vichaar (_Aatam-Giaan_...), associating with _Sat_ (Truth) within and without; without sacrificing the household duties and responsibilities.


ਬੰਧਨਿ ਬਾਧਿਆ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਛੂਟੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੇਵੈ ਨਰਹਰੇ ॥੧॥: Bandhan baadhiaa in bidh shootai gurmukhi sevai narahare ||1||: Bound in bondage, the man is released only by this method: by becoming a Gurmukh, serve God ||1|| (sggs 1112). 
ਸੰਤਹੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥: Santahu gurmukhi mukti gati paaee: O saints! (One) who become the Gurmukh, attains the state of Liberation (ਉੱਚੀ/ਗਿਆਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਆਤਮਕ ਅਵਸਥਾ...). (sggs 911). 
ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਜੁਗਤਾ ॥ ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਬਕਤਾ ॥ ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਗਿਰਹੀ ਕਉਣੁ ਉਦਾਸੀ ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਬਾਧਾ ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਛੂਟਾ ॥ ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਵਣੁ ਤੂਟਾ ॥ ਕਉਣ ਕਰਮ ਕਉਣ ਨਿਹਕਰਮਾ ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਕਹੈ ਕਹਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥ ... ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜੁਗਤਾ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਕਤਾ ॥ ਧੰਨੁ ਗਿਰਹੀ ਉਦਾਸੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਬਾਧਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਛੂਟਾ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਵਣੁ ਤੂਟਾ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਰਮ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਹਕਰਮਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਸੁਭਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੬॥: Kaounu su muktaa kaounu su jugataa...: Who is liberated, and who is united? Who is a spiritual teacher, and who is a preacher? Who is a house-holder, and who is a renunciate? Who can estimate the Lord's Value? ||1|| How is one bound, and how is one freed of his bonds? How can one escape from the cycle of coming and going? Who is subject to Karma, and who is beyond Karma? Who chants the Name, and inspires others to chant it? ||2|| Who is happy, and who is sad? Who, as Sanmukh (turns toward the Guru), and who, as Vaymukh (turns away from the Guru)? How can one meet the Lord? How is one separated from Him? Who can reveal this? ||3|| What is that Word, by which the wandering mind can be restrained? What are those teachings, by which we may endure pain and pleasure alike? What is that lifestyle, by which we may come to meditate on the Supreme Lord? How may we sing the Kirtan of His Praises? ||4|| The Gurmukh is liberated, and the Gurmukh is linked (to Mool within). The Gurmukh is the spiritual teacher, and the Gurmukh is the preacher. Blessed is the Gurmukh, the householder and the renunciate. The Gurmukh knows the Lord's Value. ||5|| Egotism is bondage; as Gurmukh, one is emancipated. The Gurmukh escapes the cycle of coming and going in reincarnation. The Gurmukh performs Karma (ਮਾਇਆ-ਰਹਿਤ), and the Gurmukh is beyond Karma (i.e., he does not get involve in Mayaic efforts...). Whatever the Gurmukh does, is done in good faith (ਆਤਮ-ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਚ ਟਿਕ ਕੇ). ||6|| (sggs 131).
A person with such divine qualities is free from doubts, superstitions, material bondage, falsehood, corruption, evil-mindedness, demoniac actions, jealousy and enviousness, false ego, passions, demerits, sinful reactions, lamentation and hankering for material objects, desire and fear, hatred, conflicts, fanaticism, differences, and so on. In essence, he is a living-liberated (_Jeevan Mukta_). Such pure devotee helps recover other conditioned _Jeeva_ (individual beings) from their delusion as well.  Accordingly, the Gurbani declares that there is no difference in God and a Gurmukh.


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਹੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥: Gurmukh bani Brahm hai Sabad milaavaa hoi: The Word of the Gurmukh is God Himself (ਬ੍ਰਹਮ). Through (his) Shabad, we meet (God) (sggs 39).
ਅਪੁਨੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਈ ॥: Apune satgur kaou bali jaaee. Gumukh jotee joti milaaee: I am forever a sacrifice to my Satgur. Who becomes the Gurmukh, (the Satguru) blends his light (consciousness, ਸੁਰਤਿ, etc.) with the Divine Light (sggs 362). 
ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥: Trai gun maya moh hai Gurmukh chauthaa pad paai: The three qualitied Maya's Moh (worldly attachment) is (prevalent). Who becomes the Gurmukh attains the Fourth State (the state that transcends Maya) (sggs 30).
ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥੨੮॥: Nanak gurmukhi mukati duaar ||28||: O Nanak! By becoming the Gurmukh, find the door of liberation (from the false ego-sense - ਹਉਮੈ - bondage, Maya, etc.). ||28|| (sggs 941).
Hence, according to the Gurbani, a Gurmukh is not a question of heredity, family of birth, ancestry, race, region, social status, caste, creed, education, titles, religion, or any peculiar external appearance of a person; it is a question of Self-realization (linking with the _Mool _within...)! Undoubtedly, to be Gurmukh is like standing in a fire without getting burnt!


ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਵਸੀਅਲੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੂਲੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਰਹੈ ॥: Ihu manu nihachalu hiradai vaseeale gurmukhi moolu pachhaani rahai (sggs 945). 
The Manmukh

A Manmukh is the opposite of the Gurmukh. 

Hence, a Manmukh is a material being (egoistic or unenlightened person) as opposed to a Spiritual Being, who does not have natural inclination for Gurmat and Spirituality - he is the mind-willed. People with such materialistic outlook — referred to as Manmukhs in the Gurbani — assert that everlasting happiness is attainable only in acquisition of sense-objects, persuing passions, etc. In other words, a Manmukh is ruled by his conditioned and corrupt sense-blind mind instead of Soul Consciousness. Simply stated, a Manmukh is an ego-being with the following faults: lust, anger, greed, material attachment, pride, envy, stubborn mindedness; along with numerous variations of these. Having conditioned (polluted or filthy) consciousness, he has no understanding of the _Naam_, _Shabad, Hukam_ (Will), Self, God, Spirit or the Sat Guru. Consequently, he has no understanding of the ultimate purpose of life, his relationship with God, and the Way of God (_Gurmat_). In this madness and illusion and "I-am-ness", he cultivates the life of a faithless cynic called _Saakat_ — an unwise and an untrue being.

In short, a Manmukh is a denier of the Truth (ਸਚ); he is disconnected from his Mool (Source, Origin Truth...); his mind escapes through senses and run after sense-objects or whose _Akakal _follows his mind's dictates; he is ever uncontented, ਮਾਇਆ ਨਾਲ ਜੁੜਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ...), he has no understanding of the Gur-Shabad (Aatm-Giaan, Divine Knowledge of the Gurbani); he is full of the "filth" (of evil passions, Maya, etc.)... 


ਸੇ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਜੋ ਸਬਦ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਹਿ ॥: Se manmukh jo Sabad na pachhaanahi: They alone are Manmukhs who do not realize the Shabad (sggs 1054).
ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਮੈਲਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥: Manmukhi mailaa sabadu n pashhaanai: The Manmukh's (mind) remains filthy (with Bikaar); (he) does not understand the Shabad (sggs 415). 
ਮਨਮੁਖੀ ਦੁਹਾਗਣਿ ਨਾਹਿ ਭੇਉ ॥: Manmukhee duhaagan naahi bhaeo: The Manmukh, suffering in separation (from God), do not understand (God's) mystery (sggs 1170).
ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥: Manmukhu rogee hai sansaaraa: The Manmukh is sick and diseased (with evil passions...) in the world (sggs 118).
In nutshell, anyone who has not realized the _Mool_ within (_Joti-Svaroopa_, Source, Origin...) alone is a Manmukh. Here Gurbani provides us with a very clear definition as to what constitutes a Manmukh and a Gurmukh. Those in the _Shabad_, _Naam_ or God Consciousness are true Gurmukh, whilst the rest of us (over 99.9 percent) are just hypocrite, Saakat or Manmukhs engrossed in unenlightened existence of (Maya) - worldly attachments, evil passions, hatred, selfishness, falsehood, meaningless rituals, corruption, frauds, deception, greed, lip worship and varieties of other superficial religious or reactionary spirituality...

ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਚੇਤਹਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਵੀਚਾਰਹਿ ਇਹੁ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਕਾ ਆਚਾਰੁ ॥: Naam n cheetahi sabadu n vichaarahi ihu manmukh kaa aachaaru: The conduct of the Manmukh (self-willed...) is that (he) does not think of the Divine Naam (Hukam, Gur-Giaan...), and does not ponder on the Shabad (Gur-Shabad Vichaar..). (sggs 508). 
ਮਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਭੂਲੇ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਦੁਰਜਨਾ ॥: Man antar haumai rog hai bharam bhoole manmukh durjanaa: Those within whose mind is the disease of ego (Haumai - ਹਉਮੈ), those self-willed (Manmukhs), the evil beings (ਬਿਕਾਰੀ ਬੰਦੇ - corrupt people), are deluded by doubt (sggs 301).
ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਅੰਧਾ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਲਾਗੈ ॥: Manmukh andhaa doojai bhaae laagai: The blind Manmukh are attached to the love of duality (sggs 113). 
ਮਨਮੁਖ ਅੰਧੇ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਬੇਤਾਲੇ ॥: Manmukh andhe firahi betaale: The blind Manmukh wander around like demons (sggs 117). 
ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਧੇ ਸੁਧਿ ਨ ਕਾਈ ॥: Manmukh andhe sudh na kaaee: The blind Manmukh have no understanding at all (sggs 118). 
In this world, everyone is either a servant of Maya (illusion, delusion, etc.) or a servant of the Truth. Those who serve Maya are called Manmukhs or demons (Truth deniers, etc.), and those who serve the Truth (ਸਚ) within are called Gurmukhs or Divine. Thus, a Manmukh regardless of how advanced he may be in material qualifications by education and culture, lacks in Divine qualities; consequently, does not know the essence of the Reality that is contained within himself. Such individuals fail to attain Spiritual Perfection or Intuitive Understanding of the _Gur-Shabad (Naam_-Giaan..) ; for their intellect is dimmed by material contamination (Maya). as indicated in the SGGS, instead of seeking holiness, they chase after Maya and, as a result, wander in this dense forest of material existence like a beast in human garb.

ਭਗਤੀ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀ ॥: Bhagtee saar na jaananee Manmukh ahankaaree: The egotistical Manmukhs do not appreciate the value of Bhagti (sggs 429).
ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਝੂਠੋ ਝੂਠੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥: Manmukh jhootho jhooth kamaavai: The Manmukh practices falsehood, only falsehood (sggs 363).
ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਅਗਿਆਨੀ ਅੰਧੁ ਅੰਧਾਰਾ ॥: Manmukh agiaanee andh andhaaraa: The Manmukhs (because of emotional attachment: Moh) remain immersed in utter darkness of ignorance (of their spiritual life: ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ) (sggs 1067).
ਮਨਮੁਖ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਨੀ ਪਸੂ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥੩॥: Manmukh tatu na jaananee pasoo maahi samaanaa ||3|| (sggs 1009).
As the Manmukh or demons take shelter in material corruption, they are called the lowest of mankind despite their advancement in material education, science and politics. Association with such material beings is called _Kusang_ (false or bad association). By its very nature, such association separates an individual from the Truth, and makes him forgetful of his True Nature, which is Pure Consciousness (or "_Joti-svaroopa_"). 

ਮਨਮੁਖ ਸੇਵਾ ਜੋ ਕਰੇ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥ ਪੁਤੁ ਕਲਤੁ ਕੁਟੰਬੁ ਹੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਵਧਾਇ ॥: Manmukh sevaa jo karae doojai bhaai chit laai. Putt kalat kattamb hai Maya mohu vadhaai: The Manmukh may perform service (ਸੇਵਾ), (but while doing so, he) keeps his consciousness attached to the love of duality (not One God). Through Maya, his attachment to children, spouse and relatives increases (sggs 1422). 
A Manmukh lifestyle is void of humility, true contentment, compassion, and spiritual wisdom*. *Such lifestyle exhibits nothing but undesirable qualities in a person. To make us aware of Manmukhs and their conduct, the Gurbani has provided us with numerous symptoms of such material beings caught in the vertex of unenlightened existence. Some of these symptoms include: egoism, ignorance, selfishness, duality, bondage, evil-mindedness, falsehood, violence, untruthfulness, doubts, superstitions, uncontrolled senses, identification with the feeling of "I, me, mine, your", lust, anger, greed, attachment, self pride, self-conceit; jealousy and enviousness, stubborn mindedness, hatred, fanaticism, conflicts, lack of contentment, material hankering and lamentation, lack of mental control and inner peace, self-centered, full of quarrel and contentions, lack of faith, extroverted ness, ritualistic, unhappy, always interested in taking instead of giving, affinity for bad association, lack of self-discipline, mental agitation, unceasing wandering (rat-race), begging material things from God, complaining, finding faults in others, unable to bear pains and sorrows of life, love for material world instead of the _Mool_ within, corruption, fraud, larceny and swindling, bribery, cheating, lying, plundering, stealing, fond of mental speculations and material logic, attachment to material world, deceitful nature, fearful, unceasing desire for sense objects, cynicism, hypocrisy, always wanting to control the world, always wanting to be appreciated, unceasing hunger for name and fame, love for titles and honor, divisiveness, prejudices, cruelty, bigotry, indulgence in worldly pleasures, illusion, delusion, wrong identity, stupor, obstinate error, love of Maya or worldliness, crookedness, animosity, and so on. 

Hence, according to the Gurbani, a Manmukh is not a question of heredity, family of birth, ancestry, race, region, social status, caste, creed, education, titles, religion or any peculiar external appearance of a person; it is a question of unenlightened existence, cynicism, egoism, ignorance, hypocrisy, bondage, mental delusion, body-consciousness, mistaken identity, and so on! 

In nutshell, a Manmukh is totally oblivious of his Mool within (Source, Origin, Jot, Reality...). 


ਮਨਮੁਖ ਮੂਲਹੁ ਭੁਲਿਆ ਵਿਚਿ ਲਬੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ॥: Manmukh moolahu bhuliaa vichi labu lobhu ahankaar (sggs 316). 
The Gurbani Further sums up the Manmukh and the Gurmukh as follows: 


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਖਸਿ ਜਮਾਈਅਨੁ ਮਨਮੁਖੀ ਮੂਲੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥: Gurmukhi bakhasi jamaaeeanu manmukhee moolu gavaaiaa (sggs 304). 
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥: Gurmukh chaanan jaaneeai Manmukh mughad gubaar: The Gurmukh knows the Divine Light, while the foolish Manmukh gropes around in the darkness of ignorance (sggs 20).
ਨਾਨਕ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਬੰਧੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਰਾਏ ॥੪॥੩॥: Nanak manmukh bandh hai gurmukh mukati karaae ||4||3||: O Nanak, the Manmukhs remain in bondage (with hopes, desires, etc. They become hurdles on his Way); the Gurmukhs are liberated (From these) ||4||3|| (sggs 559).
ਮਨਮੁਖ ਸਉ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਸੁਖ ਕਿ ਪੁਛਹਿ ਮਿਤ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਸਉ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਉ ਲਾਇ ਚਿਤੁ ॥ ਜੰਮਣ ਮਰਣ ਕਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਕਟੀਐ ਤਾਂ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਵੀ ਮਿਤ ॥੬੬॥: Manmukh saou kar dosatee sukh ki pushahi mit. Gurmukh saou kar dosatee Satgur saou laai chit. Jamman maran kaa mool katteeai taan sukh hovee mit ||66||: O friend, If you make friends with the Manmukhs, how can you ask for Peace ( ਆਤਮਕ ਆਨੰਦ)? Make friends with the Gurmukhs, and focus your consciousness on the Satgur. (This Way when) the root of birth and death is cut away, then, you will find Peace ( ਆਤਮਕ ਆਨੰਦ) ||66|| (sggs 1421).
— T. Singh
www.gurbani.org


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## Harry Haller (Mar 12, 2018)

just out of curiosity, can anyone name even one single Gurmukh person alive now?

is the bar set so high as to be impossible to achieve?


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 12, 2018)

Original said:


> Humankind's irrational nature is very difficult to explain if you maintain that* human intelligence [manmukh] evolved to solve complex problems, where clear, logical thinking should offer the advantage.* The doctrine *manmukh v gurmukh* is to that end, an explanation offering existential solace, where it attempts to bridge the gap between "reason n experience".



Sorry to burst your bubble mate, your assumption above in bold in not only false but also misleading. As per your claim, you are typing on your device made by *a Manmukh* to interact here with the definition you concocted on your own. I am sure you drive a flashy car made by *Manmukhs* too.

You are a well-known barrister as per your own claim and I believe in you although I am acting as *a Manmukh* by saying that, as per your concocted definition of *a Manmukh*. If you had uttered the above words in any court, the judge would ask you that if Human intelligence is Manmukh than you have prejudged those *Manmukhs* having no spiritual inclination,

How did you come to that conclusion, he would ask?
Show me the proofs of your claims in my court.
Which abacus did you choose to segregate the two and on and on?
What would your responses be?

Let's try to be *a Gurmukh* for a change in the responses.

More after sifting through the article.


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## Original (Mar 12, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> just out of curiosity, can anyone name even one single Gurmukh person alive now?


Sir
That by implication [now] would suggest that there was a point in time when an entity such as a Gurmukh existed. If that'd be correct then why not now ?

On the whole, so as to develop the discussion further, a broader and wider definition of a Gurmukh is, he/she who believes in the wisdom of SGGSJ.

Much obliged

Goodnight


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## Harry Haller (Mar 12, 2018)

Original said:


> That by implication [now] would suggest that there was a point in time when an entity such as a Gurmukh existed. If that'd be correct then why not now ?



I don't want any more rhetoric, can't you just answer the question with a straight answer?



Original said:


> On the whole, so as to develop the discussion further, a broader and wider definition of a Gurmukh is, he/she who believes in the wisdom of SGGSJ.



Uhm ok we have gone from the definition you posted above, to this new definition of belief only, is belief enough then? If I believe in the above but refuse to act on it, that is enough? I would not worry too much about the coconuts diluting Sikhism, you are doing a fantastic job all on your own.


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 13, 2018)

Original said:


> Humankind's irrational nature is very difficult to explain if you maintain that* human intelligence [manmukh] evolved to solve complex problems, where clear, logical thinking should offer the advantage. *The doctrine manmukh v gurmukh is to that end, an explanation offering existential solace, where it attempts to bridge the gap between "reason n experience".



@Original ji,

I have some sad news for myself but happy news for you.

As per your definition of *Manmukh (human intelligence evolved to solve complex problems, where clear, logical thinking should offer the advantage), *sadly, *the greatest Manmukh of today *just passed away.

The great *Stephen Hawkings, the one who roamed the Cosmos in his wheelchair* died a few minutes ago at the age of 76.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Mar 14, 2018)

Stephen Hawking ~

“You cannot understand the glories of the universe without believing there is some Supreme Power behind it.”

“To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.”

“Do we really have reason to believe that an objective reality exists?”







Tejwant Singh said:


> @Original ji,
> 
> I have some sad news for myself but happy news for you.
> 
> ...


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## Harry Haller (Mar 14, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> @Original ji,
> 
> I have some sad news for myself but happy news for you.
> 
> ...


The great Hawk had a wonderful sense of humour, I am sure he would have appreciated the below, even in death. 

I always thought a lot of Stephen Hawkings, truly a great soul, although slightly pretentious, always speaking in that fake american accent, but a huge loss nonetheless.


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## Original (Mar 14, 2018)

Respected Tejwant Singh Ji - Thank you for sharing the news of his death - beautiful soul - RIP !


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## Original (Mar 14, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> I don't want any more rhetoric,


..sorry, what part is rhetoric ?


Harry Haller said:


> can't you just answer the question with a straight answer?


I did ! You said 'name one alive now' and I said, 'given that you want one now, you're implying the existence of one. It's not your unicorn is it ?' Meaning, Gurmukh exists !


Harry Haller said:


> Uhm ok we have gone from the definition you posted above, to this new definition of belief only, is belief enough then? If I believe in the above but refuse to act on it, that is enough? I would not worry too much about the coconuts diluting Sikhism, you are doing a fantastic job all on your own.


lol...love it ! yes, belief is fundamental for its belief that constitutes faith and its faith that brings about the Gurmukh in the Manmukh.


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## Harry Haller (Mar 14, 2018)

Original said:


> .sorry, what part is rhetoric ?


most of what you write is rhetoric that is never backed up in any way



Original said:


> I did ! You said 'name one alive now' and I said, 'given that you want one now, you're implying the existence of one. It's not your unicorn is it ?' Meaning, Gurmukh exists !



can you just name one, and if you can't say so, this is getting tiresome



Original said:


> lol...love it ! yes, belief is fundamental for its belief that constitutes faith and its faith that brings about the Gurmukh in the Manmukh.



these words, like most you write are deeply, deeply ambiguous, I actually find this a tad more insulting than when you called me a {censored}, so I will ask the question again, but only one more time, you may have time to {censored} about and go back and forth, but I don't. 



Original said:


> On the whole, so as to develop the discussion further, a broader and wider definition of a Gurmukh is, he/she who believes in the wisdom of SGGSJ.



Go to any Gurdwara on Sunday and you will see a plethora of brand new mercedes benzes, lots of people dressed in all their finery, the women dripping with jewelry, they all believe in the wisdom of the SGGS, they don't follow it though, but they do believe, your opening post implies that one who acts under Bani is a true Gurmukh, now we have this new cop out statement that by simply believing, one is Gurmukh, so which is it, its a simple question, do try your best to answer it in a simple fashion, otherwise your just wasting time, 

thanks


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## Harkiran Kaur (Mar 14, 2018)

If one is not following something then they really don’t believe in it do they? Lip service isn’t belief in my opinion... 



Harry Haller said:


> most of what you write is rhetoric that is never backed up in any way
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Mar 14, 2018)

Briefly, after reading the article, I conclude that there have been twelve Gurmukhs that I know of in the history of the world and they have all been men.

Dr. Hawking has been a tremendous inspiration to me. I have had severe disabilities for almost 12 years. Now I must use a wheelchair when I leave my building. There are times when this gets old and I wish it were all over for me. Then I picture his lop-sized head and feel invigorated. 

He declared himself an atheist a while back. His thinking is too clear and logical for me to take that seriously. Being as intelligent as he is, he knows the difference between knowledge and belief. He might believe there is no Deity, but he knows he cannot know. The only logical religious stand, the only one not based on belief, is agnosticism.


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## Original (Mar 14, 2018)

Inderjeet Kaur said:


> I conclude that there have been twelve Gurmukhs that I know of in the history of the world and they have all been men.


Inderjeet, this'd be the narrow interpretation of "Gurmukh", consistent with the one found in T Singh's article above. But the one up for discussion, in the first instance is, the "broader n wider" literal meaning, Gurmukh. That is to say, he/she who faces towards god [gurmukh] and believes in SGGSJ [or in any Guru]. This will help pave way to determine whether the definitive, narrower version of Gurmukh [Sikh] can be found to exist in its entirety.


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 14, 2018)

Original said:


> Respected Tejwant Singh Ji - Thank you for sharing the news of his death - beautiful soul - RIP !



@Original ji,

You are welcome!

For you he was a Manmukh anyway, very unlike a Gurmukh like yourself.
His death must give you some relief.
One less Manmukh to worry about.


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## Harry Haller (Mar 14, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> @Original ji,
> 
> You are welcome!
> 
> ...


but surely we are all Gurmukhs, you just have to believe!


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 14, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> but surely we are all Gurmukhs, you just have to believe!



 Hallelujah!


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## Harkiran Kaur (Mar 14, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> but surely we are all Gurmukhs, you just have to believe!



I don’t think anyone said all it takes is belief to be a Gurmukh. 

It takes belief in the path of Sikhi before one can truly follow it. 

You can have people doing things they don’t believe in but they’d be doing it for the wrong reasons. You can also have those who say they believe in something but they really don’t because for whatever reason they think it doesn’t apply to them.

I think Original Ji is saying that one has to believe in the ideology taught by the Gurus, before one can truly put it into practice in ones life and that’s how one can become Gurmukh.

For example, someone might be doing community service as punishment for a minor crime. They would not be doing it for the right reasons and they certainly wouldn’t believe in the ideology of selfless service. So I don’t think they would become Gurmukh... even if that service was the exact same service that a believing Sikh was doing voluntarily and selflessly right beside them... let’s say both were serving food to homeless in a soup kitchen.


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## Harry Haller (Mar 14, 2018)

Oh well you both have something in common, you find it hard to answer questions, maybe instead of answering questions posed to other members, you could answer your own, that would be a novelty!


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 14, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> For example, someone might be doing community service as punishment for a minor crime. he would not be doing it for the right reasons and they certainly wouldn’t believe in the ideology of selfless service.



Harkiran ji,

Community service is part of his punishment.
Do you mean that any kind of good it may bring is not enough?
Is that what you are saying? He may be thinking of turning into Seva when he leaves the place of his confinement.
Do you find anything anti-Sikhi in his attitude?
The fact is neither you, nor @Orginal ji, nor anyone else knows the reason.



Harkiran Kaur said:


> So I don’t think they would become Gurmukh...



Why not?



Harkiran Kaur said:


> even if that service was the exact same service that a believing Sikh was doing voluntarily and selflessly right beside them.



How do you know that?
It does all come to yours and Orginal's beliefs as Harry rightfully pointed out.
This seems like a dogmatic judgement a la Abramanic religions, nothing more.



Harkiran Kaur said:


> . let’s say both were serving food to homeless in a soup kitchen.



And?

These are mere speculations, aren't they?

Lastly, do you also claim Stephen Hawkings was a Manmukh as Original does?


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## Original (Mar 14, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> I think Original Ji is saying that one has to believe in the ideology taught by the Gurus, before one can truly put it into practice in ones life and that’s how one can become Gurmukh.


..you tell'em Lady!


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## Harry Haller (Mar 14, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> For example, someone might be doing community service as punishment for a minor crime. They would not be doing it for the right reasons and they certainly wouldn’t believe in the ideology of selfless service. So I don’t think they would become Gurmukh... even if that service was the exact same service that a believing Sikh was doing voluntarily and selflessly right beside them... let’s say both were serving food to homeless in a soup kitchen.



now I am confused, really confused, because when I asked you what difference your dream theory made to you, you replied, 

"Huge. Like when your eyes have been opened your whole outlook changes. Instead of hopelessness of thinking this one short life is it before ceasing to exist for rest of eternity, you know there is more. I mean it’s kind of depressing to think that the average 70-80 years is it. That every bit of knowledge you gain, the hobbies you learned, the things you studied, even memories fade and in only a few generations are forgotten. I know very little about my great grandparents. Any further back forget it. So what was the purpose... why live, love, learn, gain wisdom, if only a very very few will ever even be remembered a few generations in the future? What was the point? "

so could you explain to me, if you have the time, and bearing in mind I have not taken Amrit, hell I am not even a Sikh, what is the difference between the community service person doing it as a punishment, and you doing it for personal gain, so that you get to live for eternity, what is so holy about that? 

By the way, if you don't can't answer that question, that brings the total number of questions I have asked you that you have made no effort to answer about 38, if you like I can find them all and put them all in one post! 

thanks

oh, your not allowed to use any of your standard answers, 
1. I have not taken amrit so I could not possibly understand
2. you have already answered the question and are refusing to answer again
3. you have answered the question in a previous post


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Mar 14, 2018)

We are such vile, evil, sinful creatures that God cannot stand the sight of us unless we are washed clean in the blood of Jesus Christ; no amount of good deeds can ever overcome our inherent sinful nature.  Grace is both necessary and sufficient Good works are largely irrelevant.  This is the traditional belief of Christian Protestants. 

Sikhi teaches nothing like this. If I have it correct, Sikhs are called upon to grow spiritually with a combination of grace and good works. This is strongly implied in the Mul Mantra, which is familiar to every Sikh. Just because I feel like it, I'm posting it here. No arguments, please, about whether only the first line in Mul Mantra; that has nothing to do with this discussion. Please just take a look at it in light of this discussion.

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ 
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaŉ gur parsāḏ. 
One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~ 

ਜਪੁ ॥ 
Jap. 
Chant And Meditate: 

ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ 
Āḏ sacẖ jugāḏ sacẖ. 
True In The Primal Beginning. True Throughout The Ages. 

ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥ 
Hai bẖī sacẖ Nānak hosī bẖī sacẖ. ||1|| 
True Here And Now. O Nanak, Forever And Ever True. ||1|| 


It is not for me to name anyone Gurmukh or Manmukh; I am only fairly certain that those calling themselves "Gurmukh" aren't because to so praise oneself is certainly an indication of a big ego. I'm not even certain that these classifications apply outside the Sikh community.


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 14, 2018)

Harinder Singh of SikhRi

"If we find answers to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we would know the mind of God.
It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.
Without imperfection, you or I would not exist."
#StephenHawkingRIP


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## Harkiran Kaur (Mar 15, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Harkiran ji,
> 
> Community service is part of his punishment.
> Do you mean that any kind of good it may bring is not enough?
> ...



Of course not. Only an individual would know their own avastha and we are told in Gurbani to only judge ourselves and also that the only one who will know who is a Brahamgyani is the Brahamgyani. So best we can do is keep both believing enough in Gurbani to actually try and implement it in our lives. It is after all a solo journey. 

My point on the criminal is that being forced to do seva is not exactly selfless is it? Most do it grudgingly and without putting their heart into it. Sure it might change someone down the road but at that moment when they hand a sandwich to a homeless guy, while at the same time feeling rage at being there in the first place ...I don’t think that qualifies as ‘selfless’


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## Harkiran Kaur (Mar 15, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> so could you explain to me, if you have the time, and bearing in mind I have not taken Amrit, hell I am not even a Sikh, what is the difference between the community service person doing it as a punishment, and you doing it for personal gain, so that you get to live for eternity, what is so holy about that?



First of all, nobody can do service for a life of eternity. We all already exist eternally as ONE. There is no trading good deeds for eternity a’la Abrahamic religions.

Second I don’t do anything I might do in hopes of personal gain. At least I try my hardest. I still struggle sometimes with wanting a little bit of recognition if I did something major and I feel bad if someone else got the recognition. That’s a personal demon I have (metaphorically of course).

When it comes to seva, and selflessness if service is done for the wrong reasons that persons eyes likely won’t be opened the same way as laying aside your own ego and doing it selflessly. At least that’s my understanding. As an adult I can understand that cleaning my home is rewarding for my family but as a child filled with anger because Mom told me I have to clean my room or else no play time, and do it on the edge of a tantrum I could not see the reward of having a clean room. I couldn’t see through that fog of anger or selfishness.

What I meant was not that the homeless person wasn’t going to be fed either way, but that when someone is forced to do something out of punishment they will usually not see how they are helping others because they are blinded by their own rage, selfishness, resentment. And I guess this is where five thieves comes in and how they affect us. Now someone who believes in doing service selflessly for no other reason than to benefit others, will see things differently. Instead of being blinded by rage and resentment they will more likely see the good that service is benefiting others. But more than that they will also feel empathy for the situation others are in.

Now I’m not saying the criminal could never see that and maybe some might see and really change. However they will have a lot more anger and resentment to deal with... that fog which will make it much more difficult.

Case in point, in the military I have felt much better about initiating a project on my own even if it ivolved physical work and was generally considered not fun. However when we were held back because someone messed up and the whole section was forced to do it as a punishment, there was an entirely different outlook.

I know you will say someone who doesn’t believe in a creator at all can still do selfless service and be a good person yes they can... but because their belief system is a bit different they may not notice or be interested in ‘finding Creator in all’ as Gurbani speaks of. If you aren’t looking for something or even more if you don’t believe in something, it will be much more difficult (though not impossible) to find. And there have been people who were no religious at all who had experiences that did open their eyes and changed their beliefs about life, creator etc. However they are very few because of you aren’t looking or interested in seeing, chances are you’ll miss it. That’s where belief comes in.

By the way holy is not really a Sikh term is it? I hope this got my thoughts across?? I don’t know how else to explain so please forgive me Harry Ji...


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## Harry Haller (Mar 15, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> First of all, nobody can do service for a life of eternity



that is quite a definitive statement, I would say that the Abrahamic religions probably disagree with you on that one.



Harkiran Kaur said:


> We all already exist eternally as ONE. There is no trading good deeds for eternity a’la Abrahamic religions.


well live and let live eh, if that is what they believe, that is what they believe, and that is what you believe



Harkiran Kaur said:


> Second I don’t do anything I might do in hopes of personal gain. At least I try my hardest. I still struggle sometimes with wanting a little bit of recognition if I did something major and I feel bad if someone else got the recognition. That’s a personal demon I have (metaphorically of course).



thank you for being honest, course you want recognition, you would not be human if you did not, it is that desire that in some way may drive you, that is probably the most endearing thing I have heard you say.



Harkiran Kaur said:


> When it comes to seva, and selflessness if service is done for the wrong reasons that persons eyes likely won’t be opened the same way as laying aside your own ego and doing it selflessly



ok, but does doing it selflessly actually exist? everyone wants recognition, even the great and the good Sikhs that do loads want recognition, its a human trait, I would be wary if people didn't. Ultimately everything we do is for the self, surely? Could you name a purely selfless act, an act that is not entwined in either recognition, guilt, or love?



Harkiran Kaur said:


> What I meant was not that the homeless person wasn’t going to be fed either way, but that when someone is forced to do something out of punishment they will usually not see how they are helping others because they are blinded by their own rage, selfishness, resentment.



Hmm that again is quite a sweeping statement, one evening, about 20 years ago, having lost the lot (yes its a recurring theme), at the time I was utterly and madly in love with a girl I had met in the states, we were engaged, but she could not stand life with a drunk, so she flew back, I was miserable, more miserable than I thought possible, I rang an old girlfriend and convinced her to meet, I turned up with a bottle of scotch, the next memory I have is waking up on a roundabout with flashing blue lights behind me, as the policeman opened the door, I fell out, and looking at the stars, and hearing the question, 'sir have you been drinking', I think I replied with ' what do you think sherlock', I got community service, I was genuinely sorry, I had to work in a charity shop for a year, I did not feel rage, or selfishness or resentment, just sorrow, not for myself, I saw it as a chance to put things right for what was a bad bad action, I could have killed someone, not all people who do community service will feel that resentment, a great many good fall, and when they fall, they are grateful for the chance to try and put things right, I met many who were truly sorry, who saw the service as way of righting things.



Harkiran Kaur said:


> And I guess this is where five thieves comes in and how they affect us. Now someone who believes in doing service selflessly for no other reason than to benefit others, will see things differently. Instead of being blinded by rage and resentment they will more likely see the good that service is benefiting others. But more than that they will also feel empathy for the situation others are in.



again that is not restricted to the good, and I wager that no one does anything selflessly for no other reason than to benefit others, that would be quite stupid really, even the Gurus had a point in doing things, a lesson to be learned, a concept to be taught, I feel the Gurus acted in a way to teach and encourage the concept of brotherhood and sisterhood, it is not a selfless act to benefit another for no other reason than that persons benefit, or is it? you may disagree.



Harkiran Kaur said:


> Now I’m not saying the criminal could never see that and maybe some might see and really change. However they will have a lot more anger and resentment to deal with... that fog which will make it much more difficult.



I love these definitive sweeping statements, you have never been a criminal, you have never been to prison, you have never done community service, so how could you possibly know? I have been to prison, I did not see anger and resentment, I saw regret, sorrow, I did not actually see much self pity. In my life I have interacted with all sorts of people, even the most hardened criminals I have come across were gentlemen, some were more  a gentlemen than some Sikhs I have come across, most had been in prison, none were angry, none were resentful, all realised they were on the wrong path, but then, what made them criminals? Strangely enough, all had a massive belief in God,  they respected the law of the jungle, of God, more than a man made law.



Harkiran Kaur said:


> I know you will say someone who doesn’t believe in a creator at all can still do selfless service and be a good person yes they can...



actually, no, I won't, but I would say that someone who doesn't believe in a creator is more honest about their agenda as to why they may do good deeds



Harkiran Kaur said:


> If you aren’t looking for something or even more if you don’t believe in something, it will be much more difficult (though not impossible) to find.


actually if you are not looking for something, and if you don't believe in something, there is nothing to find


Harkiran Kaur said:


> By the way holy is not really a Sikh term is it? I hope this got my thoughts across?? I don’t know how else to explain so please forgive me Harry Ji...
> 
> l



I have nothing to forgive you for, as you never spited me, I just wish that members would fully explain themselves and their concepts even the difficult hard bits so that understanding becomes easier, I respect and find endearing anyone that has the ability to do their best to explain their own way, I find it irritating when sweeping statements are made and no effort at all is made to back such up, this is after a forum, not a platform

thank you for the time taken to answer my questions


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## Harkiran Kaur (Mar 15, 2018)

By the way truly selfless acts happen all the time. The stranger who leaps in front of an oncoming bus to save a child that isn’t theirs. This has happened and the stranger did die. They had no reason not even time to think about personal recognition or being a hero. It was a truly selfless act. Or a medic who goes above and beyond, ignoring commands that it’s too dangerous to go and save an injured soldier. In fleeting moments when we have no time to think at all and a life or death decision must be made, you’ll see truly selfless acts. More recently in the news I read a story about a young Mother to be whos baby was in danger of dying if they didn’t do a C section but her condition also was such that major surgery would likely kill her. She did the c section, the baby survived and she didn’t. What could she possibly have been trying to gain? I’d call that selfless... 

But I do wonder why do you like to separate love from selfless? Isn’t love one of the things which drives selfless acts? (And I don’t mean romantic love but true love and empathy for all) If through love I put someone first is that not selfless? I’m not trying to gain anything if I truly desire to put their needs above mine. 

But yes I struggle with the recognition thing. A good example recently I joined the fundraising committee for our Gurdwara and since my husband has missionary college training and the sangat liked his ardaas and shabad Vichar etc I came up with an idea to create a nitnem Cd containing him reciting the nitnem banis. The CD sale would go toward the building fund. I sold the idea to sangat by explaining how it’s a good resource to learn proper pronounciation etc. I had audio experience so I did the recording myself, I did the CD artwork and even organized the actual production / costs etc. In the end my husband got all the recognition by sangat. And I did struggle with that a bit. Well maybe more than a bit. Even though my intentions on creating it were never about recognition. I genuinely wanted to help the building fund which we were having trouble with.


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## Harry Haller (Mar 15, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> By the way truly selfless acts happen all the time. The stranger who leaps in front of an oncoming bus to save a child that isn’t theirs. This has happened and the stranger did die. They had no reason not even time to think about personal recognition or being a hero. It was a truly selfless act. Or a medic who goes above and beyond, ignoring commands that it’s too dangerous to go and save an injured soldier. In fleeting moments when we have no time to think at all and a life or death decision must be made, you’ll see truly selfless acts. More recently in the news I read a story about a young Mother to be whos baby was in danger of dying if they didn’t do a C section but her condition also was such that major surgery would likely kill her. She did the c section, the baby survived and she didn’t. What could she possibly have been trying to gain? I’d call that selfless...



I would call it alleviation of guilt, rather than be haunted by a lifetime of guilt over an action that they did not do, it was better for them to die. 



Harkiran Kaur said:


> But I do wonder why do you like to separate love from selfless? Isn’t love one of the things which drives selfless acts? (And I don’t mean romantic love but true love and empathy for all) If through love I put someone first is that not selfless? I’m not trying to gain anything if I truly desire to put their needs above mine.



Love in my opinion, is for the smurfs, we love in order that we are loved back, if we were not loved back, then we would find it increasingly hard to love, no, you are correct, I have little time for love, and true love does not exist, if through love you put someone first, then it is the feeling of love that drives you to do it, love is not a concept, it is merely a flow of feel good chemicals in your head, we talk of the gooey blissful feeling of love, well, its quite addictive, I have done many many things in order to get high, people will do many many things in order to hang on to those chemicals in their head, even kidding themselves that what they are doing is for love, but they are just addicts to those chemicals, and those chemicals warp and corrupt the senses, as you said yourself, recognition is important, even more so in the game of love. 



Harkiran Kaur said:


> But yes I struggle with the recognition thing. A good example recently I joined the fundraising committee for our Gurdwara and since my husband has missionary college training and the sangat liked his ardaas and shabad Vichar etc I came up with an idea to create a nitnem Cd containing him reciting the nitnem banis. The CD sale would go toward the building fund. I sold the idea to sangat by explaining how it’s a good resource to learn proper pronounciation etc. I had audio experience so I did the recording myself, I did the CD artwork and even organized the actual production / costs etc. In the end my husband got all the recognition by sangat. And I did struggle with that a bit. Well maybe more than a bit. Even though my intentions on creating it were never about recognition. I genuinely wanted to help the building fund which we were having trouble with.



wow you just keep on giving today, do you not realise how utterly endearing the above is, in an instant, my respect and admiration for you shot up, because your being honest, not only about how you feel, but also about your agenda, and in my mind, there is nothing wrong in that, you did not harp on about how you did it for the love of god and humanity, and you did not really care about whether you were thanked or not, or some other rubbish that intimated what a good saintly person you were, you did it, there were reasons for doing it, some were good reasons, some were personal reasons, you thought about it, you realised your failings, even if one could call such a failing, and you achieved the goal and learned something about yourself, now that to me is quite beautiful, that is true humility, not the bullshit passive aggressive Uriah Heep crap that passes for humility in Sikhism, but true grounded honest humility. 

thank you for your reply once again, made my day actually


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## Original (Mar 15, 2018)

Riders n Runners - good morning !

The real reason for posting this thread was twofold:

set clear parameters for the *graduates* of the University of Life [manmukhs] and the *students* of Gurbani [Sikh, gurmukhs] to study the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 
lessen the onerous burden of answering repeatedly, irrelevant questions so that the ebb n flow of debates n discussions remain on course.
This in no way is to be construed discriminatory or offensive. All are equal and welcome to debate n discuss topics pertaining to Sikhism, in particular, and of relevance, in general.

The journey is Sikh and a Sikh is a spiritual being having a human experience. 

Much obliged


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## Harry Haller (Mar 15, 2018)

Original said:


> Riders n Runners - good morning !
> 
> The real reason for posting this thread was twofold:
> 
> ...



i would be much obliged if you just answered the questions that people ask of you, with all due respect, who are you to set any parameters? you are merely a contributor to this forum, I see now you have changed the definition of Gurmukh again, first it was those that acted in bani, then it was those that believed in bani, now it is students of gurbani, I look forward to tomorrows definition with bated breath. 

And thank you for your permission that all are equal and welcome, do you go to other peoples parties and stand by the door and do the same there as well?


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 15, 2018)

Original said:


> Riders n Runners - good morning !
> 
> The real reason for posting this thread was twofold:
> 
> ...



@Original ji,

Sorry to say that you know very little about Sikhi and when challenged about your claims and proclamations, you hide under the mound you have created with your changing answers filled with falsehoods.
How many times have you changed the definitions of Manmukh and Gurmukh since you started this thread?
Why are you afraid to respond to your own false claims?
I expected a bit more from a barrister like you.

Having said that, FYI, Gurmukh and Manmukh are not degrees handed out from The Original University. They are used as adjectives in Gurbani, not as nouns. The same thing is true for the word Sant.

If your claims were true, then the word Sikh would cease to exist and so would Sikhi.
Do you realise this?
Is this your agenda with your Hindu mindset to disrupt the members of SPN  who are using this forum to become better people irrespective of their hue, creed, faith, no faith and sexual orientation?
You will fail again as you always do whenever you make any false claims about Sikhi.

I am sure your degree as a Gurmukh graduate from  The Original University is hanging in your living room with a fresh incense burning beside it 24/7.

SPN is the only Sikh forum that gives its members the Sikhi freedom to say what they like without any moderation.
Please do not abuse this Sikhi freedom but rather use it with gusto to better yourself and as a result, we will all reap the fruits of your sowing.

Thanks.


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 15, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> But yes I struggle with the recognition thing. A good example recently I joined the fundraising committee for our Gurdwara and since my husband has missionary college training and the sangat liked his ardaas and shabad Vichar etc I came up with an idea to create a nitnem Cd containing him reciting the nitnem banis. The CD sale would go toward the building fund. I sold the idea to sangat by explaining how it’s a good resource to learn proper pronounciation etc. I had audio experience so I did the recording myself, I did the CD artwork and even organized the actual production / costs etc. In the end my husband got all the recognition by sangat. And I did struggle with that a bit. Well maybe more than a bit. Even though my intentions on creating it were never about recognition. I genuinely wanted to help the building fund which we were having trouble with.



Harkiran ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for being candid about this incidence. We all want recognition for the work we do especially at the place where we scream equality with every other word. We all struggle with many things in our lives on the daily basis.

I hope you have raised lots of funds with your creative idea.


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## Original (Mar 15, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> i would be much obliged if you just answered the questions that people ask of you,


..with pleasure, on the proviso, questions pertain to Sikh Faith.


Harry Haller said:


> with all due respect, who are you to set any parameters?


I'm a student who wants to explore and learn about his religion. Setting parameters help achieve objectives and on my part, an invitation to cooperative inquiry..

Goodnight n Godbless


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## Original (Apr 1, 2018)

Inderjeet Ji,

I too have lot of time for Stephen Hawking [RIP]. One of my favorite reads is his "brief history of time" - absolutely brilliant. On page 15 he questions "why we're here and where we came from ?". This line of questioning is also found in Sikh literature, albeit, theological. The difference is in perspective and not context. His perspective was science and Nanak's perspective is theology. But when you squeeze the two what do you get ? you get the beginning of everything from a* "singularity"* [science, bag bang] and *"one" *[theology, Ekonkar] point. However, where science stand to change its stance should new evidence emerge, theological concepts will not change. And rightfully so, because in this infinite expanse of the universe no anchor means no home - you're a lost soul. The underlying factor is "faith", an irrational component part of the rational human being. Science and irrationality don't gel, albeit, a desirable proposition on part Stephen Hawking when he said, _“You cannot understand the glories of the universe without believing there is some Supreme Power behind it.” _

Goodnight


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 1, 2018)

Original Ji

Interesting you mention the Big Bang. Because from scientific standpoint, somehow the entire universe fit into an infinitely small pin point and from there expanded everything. Doesn’t that fit quite well with what Gurbani says about everything coming from ONE? 




Original said:


> Inderjeet Ji,
> 
> I too have lot of time for Stephen Hawking [RIP]. One of my favorite reads is his "brief history of time" - absolutely brilliant. On page 15 he questions "why we're here and where we came from ?". This line of questioning is also found in Sikh literature, albeit, theological. The difference is in perspective and not context. His perspective was science and Nanak's perspective is theology. But when you squeeze the two what do you get ? you get the beginning of everything from a* "singularity"* [science, bag bang] and *"one" *[theology, Ekonkar] point. However, where science stand to change its stance should new evidence emerge, theological concepts will not change. And rightfully so, because in this infinite expanse of the universe no anchor means no home - you're a lost soul. The underlying factor is "faith", an irrational component part of the rational human being. Science and irrationality don't gel, albeit, a desirable proposition on part Stephen Hawking when he said, _“You cannot understand the glories of the universe without believing there is some Supreme Power behind it.” _
> 
> Goodnight


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## Original (Apr 2, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Original Ji Of course
> 
> Interesting you mention the Big Bang. Because from scientific standpoint, somehow the entire universe fit into an infinitely small *pin point* and from there expanded everything. Doesn’t that fit quite well with what Gurbani says about everything coming from ONE?


Of course it does ! As I said above, its the one and the same but seen through different lenses. Stephen Hawking saw through science lenses and Nanak through theological lenses. The conundrum of course, is, that whilst manmukh searches/creates unknowingly *outside* into space, [science] with unending quest, the gurmukh is anchored to nam* [see below] and meditates *within.*

Moving on with what you've said above:

Call that *"pin point"* Big Bang or Ekonkar, but are they not words expressing something ? 
And isn't word a sound with meaning ?
And isn't sound a shabd [word] when expounded ?
And isn't it the word from whence came creation [John 1:1 King James Bible] ?
And isn't it the word [alam] that precedes Quran' Sharif and holds true the creation ?

The aggregated sum of all of the above is *Sound *and sound is* Nam*.​


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 3, 2018)

You forgot...

ਕੀਤਾ ਪਸਾਉ ਏਕੋ ਕਵਾਉ ॥
Kīṯā pasā▫o eko kavā▫o.
You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word!
(SGGSJ Ang 3)

(Note, since we aren’t really discussing specific shabads I was just posting a reference to a specific case where ‘word’ is used in consonance with cration in Gurbani. Hence why I didn’t post the whole shabad which would just be off topic...)



Original said:


> Of course it does ! As I said above, its the one and the same but seen through different lenses. Stephen Hawking saw through science lenses and Nanak through theological lenses. The conundrum of course, is, that whilst manmukh searches/creates unknowingly *outside* into space, [science] with unending quest, the gurmukh is anchored to nam* [see below] and meditates *within.*
> 
> Moving on with what you've said above:
> 
> ...


You forgot


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## Original (Apr 3, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> ਕੀਤਾ ਪਸਾਉ ਏਕੋ ਕਵਾਉ ॥
> Kīṯā pasā▫o eko kavā▫o.
> You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word!
> (SGGSJ Ang 3)


Harkiran, this is interesting ! I wanted to use this, but I didn't because of the content within which it was uttered [by Nanak]. Sikh scriptures speak of creation [ਕਵਾਉ, through word, meaning sound], but in contexts macro n micro, that is, universe n world, respectively. And, in this instance ਕੀਤਾ ਪਸਾਉ ਏਕੋ ਕਵਾਉ its the latter of the two. Nanak is mindful of the content of the subject matter [man and world as oppose to man and universe] and frames it accordingly.

I'm delighted with your finds -


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 5, 2018)

I had a bunch of things happen in my life with the passage of time. It perhaps is no different than many others at SPN. More specifically I have been absent since the passing of spnadmin ji. I would try to be little more participatory going forward.

In terms of the topic at hand in this thread, there are some very wonderful quotes/phrases that come in handy at times. The one that I particularly recollect is;

"*it takes one to know one"*

Be that one may want to consider one to be "Gurmukh" or "Manmukh", you really need to be one to know what or who is!
I know no living 100% Gurmukhs ( then again I am not capable to discern )  and similarly I know no living 100% Manmukhs, same argument applies.

All I can say is that we are various mixes of attributes described in SGGS so that we may consider ourselves to be part Manmukh and part Gurmukh.

Sat Sri Akal

PS: Perhaps a separate thread can address complementary topic of How is, How it came to be and where it will go in terms of the universe. Perhaps a point to ponder is that the more we try to be detrministic in these matters perhaps further from knowing we will become!


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## Original (Apr 5, 2018)

*Veer Ambarsaria Ji* - A very good morning [06:45 UK]

First n foremost - wonderful to hear from you - hope all is well.
Of late, I've been thinking 'where have all the *"SPN's olds n gold's"* disappeared to ? and then, you show up' - thank god !!!
*
Back to topic* -

From an ideological perspective manmukh and gurmukh are conceptual tools, forged specifically to hammer home the message of the Guru. The message is to liberate oneself from the wheel of 84 [birth, growth, decay, death n rebirth] and enjoy eternal bliss for that is the "real" home of the soul [sachkhand].  Only by turning towards the Guru's way of life [gurmukh] can one swim across the ocean of life. Theoretical reasoning applied here is inductive, that is, wood floats on water and if metal was attached to wood it too will float across [metaphor: wood for Guru and metal for manmukh]. In other words, transformation of manmukh to gurmukh is essential, but not exclusive to experience the "ultimate reality". The ultimate reality is beyond time n space, requiring therefore a non-physical means of transportation, which is "GURU".

Sikhi spiritual is sweet, only if you now how to peel.

More another time -


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 5, 2018)

Gurmukh Original ji, good morning to you too.

I have observed many great qualities of your intellect and disposition in your posts.  SGGS gives us some hints as to how to identify a Gurmukh or what makes a Gurmukh.

It is quite common among Sikhs to address each other as "Gurmukho"! For example, "Gurmukho ki haal chaal hai/Respecteful one how have you been?".  I have also observed that at such times there are very common reactions from people in the form of "Pride -Joy". The important thing is that for an improving Gurmukh, the joy will encourage and stimulate the person to seek and assimilate other Gurmukh qualities and put these in practice. The undeserving Gurmukh perhaps will take pride and get stuck at "Pride" with stunted future growth towards being Gurmukh of greater qualities.

As far as 8400000 "joons" are concerned, I understand that SGGS guides us to see and find bliss as we are. SGGS does not threaten or carries a big stick that if you don't do this that you will become a snake or something else if you don't do. The issue for me is if we have found blissful life and eternal peace in ourselves as that is what guides us to be a Gurmukh at one with all creation. I conjecture that there are Gurmukh lions, elephants, skunks and rats too. We just cannot see it that way as "it takes one to know one".

Gurmukh Original ji and other spners, "salvation or finding bliss" is big business and a money maker for the guides, the babeys, the preachers, the sants and many others in almost all sects and religions in the world. Beware; SGGS guides you for free if you invest a bit of time and do self-study. Original ji your analogy about wood-iron floating is good one. But the wood better not be indicative of a Baba or someone similar that you are paying monies to or doing services for to find salvation. Those who do that have simply not understood much of SGGS or our Guruji's teachings and have asked for a miracle pill of salvation. From what I know no such pill exists and SGGS does not identify one either from what I have understood of SGGS.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Admin (Apr 5, 2018)

Ambarsaria said:


> I had a bunch of things happen in my life with the passage of time. It perhaps is no different than many others at SPN. More specifically I have been absent since the passing of spnadmin ji. I would try to be little more participatory going forward.



Welcome back @Ambarsaria Ji


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## Original (Apr 6, 2018)

Ambarsaria said:


> Gurmukh Original ji, good morning to you too.
> 
> I have observed many great qualities of your intellect and disposition in your posts. SGGS gives us some hints as to how to identify a Gurmukh or what makes a Gurmukh.



Sir

Thank you for the honorific title, Gurmukh.

Am I by definition a Gurmukh [GM] ? I'm afraid I'm not. I may qualify as a GM by virtue of all that I do and believe, but in truth, I'm far from it. That's because GM n MM [Manmukh] are conceptual tools forged to advance an "idea". An idea that is Sikh where conceptual tools are employed as a guide in directing the application of intellectual activities to contemporary social and personal problems. It is the pursuit of a *perfect* being [GM] in an *imperfect* human [MM]. Thus, a life philosophy based on the teachings of the Guru to liberate the spirit through self-discipline. I'm yet to reach that state of being.

Nature has placed humankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain n pleasure. These two imposters dictate their everyday lives. On the one hand is the moral compass [right n wrong], and on the other, the chain of cause n effect. They are forever caught bang in the middle, utterly helpless and powerless before the will of nature [human condition]. GM is a way out and like you've said *"it takes one to know one"*. How true, but that statement stands true following "experience". That is to say, we can discuss GM-MM till the cows come home, but the experience factor GM can only be had after anointment. Only a Gurmukh can tell you what a Gurmukh "is", all else will be a perceived view.

Always a pleasure conversing and most recent, if I may; me n wife were in your neck of the woods [Amritsar] and what a sojourn ? as if heaven had descended, enveloping Harminder Sahib completely. Beautiful moments at the grace of Waheguru in your nagri.

Good day


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## Dr.Alta (Apr 16, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> just out of curiosity, can anyone name even one single Gurmukh person alive now?


I have the qualities of Sahaj and Sach Santokhee, I am a follower of the truth(notice the small 't' or as I like to call it aletheia, Greek for unconcealedness);I'm relatively detached in the midst of Maya, I am Jeevan Mukat. I'm (maybe not completely)free of the false ego-sense (Haume) that is filth (of Haume or egotism) does not come and stick to me. pain and pleasure do not afflict me. though I lack Sukh for the most part the descriptions of a Gurmukh describe me.


Harry Haller said:


> is the bar set so high as to be impossible to achieve?


I certainty don't think they are impossible to achieve. I hope to someday meet another like me, to discus the problem of being satisfied.


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## Harry Haller (Apr 17, 2018)

Dr.Alta said:


> I have the qualities of Sahaj and Sach Santokhee, I am a follower of the truth(notice the small 't' or as I like to call it aletheia, Greek for unconcealedness);I'm relatively detached in the midst of Maya, I am Jeevan Mukat. I'm (maybe not completely)free of the false ego-sense (Haume) that is filth (of Haume or egotism) does not come and stick to me. pain and pleasure do not afflict me. though I lack Sukh for the most part the descriptions of a Gurmukh describe me.
> 
> I certainty don't think they are impossible to achieve. I hope to someday meet another like me, to discus the problem of being satisfied.



yeah, I think you possibly need to work on the ego a bit more


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## Dr.Alta (Apr 21, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> yeah, I think you possibly need to work on the ego a bit more


I have decided I'm a Sanmukh.


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