# Anyone Have Any Unanswered Questions On Sikhi Or God?



## Theologian (Jan 7, 2017)

Hello brothers & sisters,
I always enjoy having conversations or back n forth talks on the more unanswerable sides of religions & God. To start, anyone have anything to put forward......


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## RD1 (Jan 7, 2017)

Where did God come from? What are the origins of God?


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (Jan 7, 2017)

RD1 said:


> Where did God come from? What are the origins of God?


God has come from no where. He was ther ab initio; he has been there through all the ages; he is there now and will be there as it is. Aad(i) sach(u), jugad(i) sach(u), hai bhi sach(u), hosi bhi sach(u). He is Saibhang (self created).


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## sukhsingh (Jan 7, 2017)

dalvindersingh grewal said:


> God has come from no where. He was ther ab initio; he has been there through all the ages; he is there now and will be there as it is. Aad(i) sach(u), jugad(i) sach(u), hai bhi sach(u), hosi bhi sach(u). He is Saibhang (self created).


I think RD1 was being sarcastic


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## RD1 (Jan 7, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> I think RD1 was being sarcastic


 lol I was actually not being sarcastic.....


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## sukhsingh (Jan 7, 2017)

RD1 said:


> lol I was actually not being sarcastic.....


Lol


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## Tejwant Singh (Jan 9, 2017)

Theologian said:


> Hello brothers & sisters,
> I always enjoy having conversations or back n forth talks on the more unanswerable sides of religions & God. To start, anyone have anything to put forward......



Guru Fateh Theologian ji,

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If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask us directly under this group conversation, we all are here to help each other! We hope you will enjoy your stay over here as we look forward to your active participation. 


Sevadaars at SPN


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## Theologian (Jan 15, 2017)

RD1 said:


> Where did God come from? What are the origins of God?


 

jb eyk inrMjn inrMkwr pRB sBu ikCu Awpih krqw ]3] (216-2)
jab ayk niranjan nirankaar parabh sabh kichh aapeh kartaa. ||3||
When the Immaculate and Formless Lord God was all alone, He did everything by Himself. ||3||
Apny krqb Awpy jwnY ijin iehu rcnu rcwieAw ] (216-2)
apnay kartab aapay jaanai jin ih rachan rachaa-i-aa.
He alone knows His actions; He created this creation.


When God in the beginning was in his previous formless state, everything was dark and formless and void of life, apart from the Eternal God as one Entity. As we live in a physical universe, that is set by parameters and rules, the external universe(outside ours), is totally different. As there are a few verses that explain by Gods command and will, creations and life come into being through his eternal word. If you wish for me to add a verse for this then please request and I will have to have a dig through the SGGS. If you already know this, then for times sake I am moving on. The only way I can try and understand the spiritual/exterior realm(s) is as a magical world. A world that is not bound by rigid rules and formulas in the physical sense.

Now if anything was before God, then that would not make God first. If God had to have a reason to come into being, then that would make God created, and hence would not be God. As God is first and divine, we have to take things by faith, just as we are taught in many other ways to take faith in things we can not see, like taking faith in the actual existence of God today in a form, a form that is 'visually' 'closest' to that of a human exterior according to certain verses, I should be able to add a verse for this below:


iqsu iniv iniv lwgau pweI jIau ]2] (216-17)
tis niv niv laaga-o paa-ee jee-o. ||2||
Bowing low, I fall at the Feet of the Lord.

supRsMn Bey kysvw sy jn hir gux gwih ]4] (203-10)
suparsan bha-ay kaysvaa say jan har gun gaahi. ||4||
Those humble beings, with whom the beautifully-haired Lord is thoroughly pleased, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord.


dalvindersingh grewal said:


> God has come from no where. He was ther ab initio; he has been there through all the ages; he is there now and will be there as it is. Aad(i) sach(u), jugad(i) sach(u), hai bhi sach(u), hosi bhi sach(u). He is Saibhang (self created).


 
I do not believe he was self created, any insight sir?


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## Theologian (Jan 15, 2017)

dalvindersingh grewal said:


> God has come from no where. He was ther ab initio; he has been there through all the ages; he is there now and will be there as it is. Aad(i) sach(u), jugad(i) sach(u), hai bhi sach(u), hosi bhi sach(u). He is Saibhang (self created).


 
If God was the result of being created, then he would be a creation.


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## sukhsingh (Jan 15, 2017)

Theologian said:


> jb eyk inrMjn inrMkwr pRB sBu ikCu Awpih krqw ]3] (216-2)
> jab ayk niranjan nirankaar parabh sabh kichh aapeh kartaa. ||3||
> When the Immaculate and Formless Lord God was all alone, He did everything by Himself. ||3||
> Apny krqb Awpy jwnY ijin iehu rcnu rcwieAw ] (216-2)
> ...


This all sounds a bit muddled.. 

What do you mean God was not self created? Your expositions have some very interesting nuances.. You're use and application of the term 'god', approach to discussing and translating bani seems novel.. I would very much like to understand your perspectives more.. Maybe if we localise and focus on a specific area of discussion it may be better? 

Your approach to discussing 'god' /akaal, creation, engendered descriptions of 'god' feel alien to me and (without prejudice) abrahamic.. 

With respect 
Sukh


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## chazSingh (Jan 18, 2017)

Theologian said:


> jb eyk inrMjn inrMkwr pRB sBu ikCu Awpih krqw ]3] (216-2)
> jab ayk niranjan nirankaar parabh sabh kichh aapeh kartaa. ||3||
> When the Immaculate and Formless Lord God was all alone, He did everything by Himself. ||3||
> Apny krqb Awpy jwnY ijin iehu rcnu rcwieAw ] (216-2)
> ...



Hi,

Can i ask you one question....

Do you believe that 'in this life' 'whilst you are alive' you can become an 'explorer' and experience God, know God, and understand through 1st hand experience his whole creation...? all whilst living as a human being in that body of yours


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## Theologian (Jan 18, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> This all sounds a bit muddled..
> 
> What do you mean God was not self created? Your expositions have some very interesting nuances.. You're use and application of the term 'god', approach to discussing and translating bani seems novel.. I would very much like to understand your perspectives more.. Maybe if we localise and focus on a specific area of discussion it may be better?
> 
> ...


 
So do you hold the believe God is a creation?

If I went by teachings that God is not limited to no form, and is always around us. That Guru Nanak spoke to a being, called 'God'. Saw a being that he described as 'God'. Even to the point of his hair, arms and legs.

Then 10/15 years later studying other faiths and come across most other faiths agreeing with SGGS that God is not limited to any form, and is always around us, and also has a description of a body. Should I disagree with the root of my believe? If an Abrahamic religion says that the SGGS is right in certain topics, is anything wrong with that? Or what would you suggest....Insight please.


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## Theologian (Jan 18, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> Hi,
> 
> Can i ask you one question....
> 
> Do you believe that 'in this life' 'whilst you are alive' you can become an 'explorer' and experience God, know God, and understand through 1st hand experience his whole creation...? all whilst living as a human being in that body of yours


 Nope, if I could even get to 5% of knowing, I would consider it a success. Otherwise if I did know nearly all, then in essence I would be saying I know nearly all as God, claiming to be near the knowledge of God. Only God knows all. But going to original point, It would be impossible to have a high knowledge of Gods creation. All I can aim to do, is study through countless hours and days, through what we can see on Earth and through every religion to get an insight into the SGGS.

Like for example, a soul cannot be seen, even if a doctor opens a body up. Many have claimed to see ghosts and some have physical evidence through electrical equipment of variances in environment. If ghosts can go through walls, then that would not be possible if this is the 'Main' world. So through this example of creation, and the soul being in the ghost/spiritual realm, then that would make more sense to be the main world, through which this world is built on. Like a human skeleton, you can not see the skeleton from the outside body, but it is the main structure that's the body and organs together.

Would you propose any more ways to navigate this?


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## sukhsingh (Jan 18, 2017)

Theologian said:


> So do you hold the believe God is a creation



Answering a question with a question isn't particularly useful.


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## chazSingh (Jan 19, 2017)

Theologian said:


> Nope, if I could even get to 5% of knowing, I would consider it a success. Otherwise if I did know nearly all, then in essence I would be saying I know nearly all as God, claiming to be near the knowledge of God. Only God knows all. But going to original point, It would be impossible to have a high knowledge of Gods creation. All I can aim to do, is study through countless hours and days, through what we can see on Earth and through every religion to get an insight into the SGGS.
> 
> Like for example, a soul cannot be seen, even if a doctor opens a body up. Many have claimed to see ghosts and some have physical evidence through electrical equipment of variances in environment. If ghosts can go through walls, then that would not be possible if this is the 'Main' world. So through this example of creation, and the soul being in the ghost/spiritual realm, then that would make more sense to be the main world, through which this world is built on. Like a human skeleton, you can not see the skeleton from the outside body, but it is the main structure that's the body and organs together.
> 
> Would you propose any more ways to navigate this?




Ok, so now i know a little more about you and your general beliefs and idea through your study of religions...

Things is...personally i wouldn't want to be on my death bed having lived my life and just studied!!...
i want to live...

i don't want to study australia...i have set foot on australia...experienced it..breathed it..lived it...only true experience is fulfilling...

I am surprised that through your studies, you have yet to determine that everything you wish to know, can be experienced whilst alive in your body today...

I'm grateful that Sikhi tells me "study for a little while...but thats not enough!....now do it, live it, breath it...whilst you are alive"...

I'm grateful that sikhi says "this is the way...now become an explorer, a scientist and do this experiment, whilst you are still breathing and see what happens"

and boy....does it happen 

don;t set you limit to just studying, don't set your limit to just 5% of knowing...what there is to experience is infinite...so stop thinking about it...it'll make your head hurt. just do it...and then tell your story to other and inspire them

I'm done with just studying...as my nephew says..."its boring!" 

As Original Ji often says...your body is the stargate! through your body, absolutely everything is accessible....take the dive in! lol


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## chazSingh (Jan 19, 2017)

[QUOTE="Theologian, post: 212050, member: 21372" All I can aim to do, is study through countless hours and days, through what we can see on Earth and through every religion to get an insight into the SGGS.

[/QUOTE]

Just a little something on what you wrote above...

you said you want to study through what you can see on earth (which is on the outside)
and through study of religions (which is on the outside)...

but you want to get an insight (which is on the inside)...

SGGS Ji, in many please says...you are a fool if you are seeking God on the outside...it says it in such a blunt way, but you would be surprised how many people still ignore such bold and direct statements...

It says "look on the inside!" lol
many verses in SGGS ji are trying to describe stages of your journey 'within' ... therefore they cannot really be understood through study...

one day you'll be in deep meditation...the universe will open up before your inner eyes...and you'll think "ahhhh thats what it means!".....beauty is...your study has just become 'actual experience' ... and you'll want to scream from a rooftop to tell others..

but you can't prove anything to them, they have to dive in themselves also...we can only inspire each other...


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (Jan 21, 2017)

Theologian said:


> jb eyk inrMjn inrMkwr pRB sBu ikCu Awpih krqw ]3] (216-2)
> jab ayk niranjan nirankaar parabh sabh kichh aapeh kartaa. ||3||
> When the Immaculate and Formless Lord God was all alone, He did everything by Himself. ||3||
> Apny krqb Awpy jwnY ijin iehu rcnu rcwieAw ] (216-2)
> ...



have you got any evidence to confirm your belief that God was not self created other than Sri Guru Granth Sahib where it is defined as 'saibhang': self created.


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## Sikhilove (Jan 27, 2017)

Theologian said:


> jb eyk inrMjn inrMkwr pRB sBu ikCu Awpih krqw ]3] (216-2)
> jab ayk niranjan nirankaar parabh sabh kichh aapeh kartaa. ||3||
> When the Immaculate and Formless Lord God was all alone, He did everything by Himself. ||3||
> Apny krqb Awpy jwnY ijin iehu rcnu rcwieAw ] (216-2)
> ...



He sat for many ages In the Primal Void- the Silence (our true origin) and after much self contemplation and meditation, discovered himself to be Truth/Sat.

He wished to share His discovery with another, and bam- the universe, the 14 realms were created. Hes blessed us to be able to discover ourselves in a fraction of the time He has. We are Truth- we are Nothing but a frequency beyond what we can currently comprehend. We just need to realise it.


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## Harry (Jan 28, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> He sat for many ages In the Primal Void- the Silence (our true origin) and after much self contemplation and meditation, discovered himself to be Truth/Sat.



Can you you clarify the above statement please, it intimates that God was not perfect at one point, is this the case?


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## Sikhilove (Jan 28, 2017)

Harry said:


> Can you you clarify the above statement please, it intimates that God was not perfect at one point, is this the case?



No it doesn't, again that's you using your worldly logic. 

There is no worldly logic in Truth. Gurbani states that He sat for ages in the void in deep contemplation/ meditation. The Gurus followed in His footsteps of self discovery. They urge Us to do the same, that's why they taught the world.


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## sukhsingh (Jan 28, 2017)

dalvindersingh grewal said:


> have you got any evidence to confirm your belief that God was not self created other than Sri Guru Granth Sahib where it is defined as 'saibhang': self created.


Sir I understand where you are coming from however no one can provide' evidence' either whether 'god' was self-created or not. We can say sggsj asserts 'akaal' etc is Saibhang but that is not proof, it's a assertion 'we' choose or find congruent to our experience, or rather a description which philosophically expresses a meta-physical truth. I believe it to be the truth but I can't prove it. Scientifically speaking I haven't found in my own 'khoj' anything anywhere that for me undermines the truth as expressed in mool mantar.. As someone who believes in testing ideas, expositions to find flaws in any given argument, the socratic method if you like. My belief in the  truth expressed in mool mantar is as yet unchallenged. Which however does not mean that at some point in the future something may change that. However even if something did modify my opinion and undermine my belief it would not mean that it was not true only that my understanding had been modified and I would then have to test and try to disprove /undermine the belief which had superceded my current belief.


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## sukhsingh (Jan 28, 2017)

Harry said:


> Can you you clarify the above statement please, it intimates that God was not perfect at one point, is this the case?


To be fair @Sikhilove doesn't use the word perfect. To quote again " after much self contemplation and meditation, discovered himself to be Truth/Sat." truth can mean that something is both perfect and imperfect.. I do have a problem with how we always engender 'god' though


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## Harry (Jan 29, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> No it doesn't, again that's you using your worldly logic.
> 
> There is no worldly logic in Truth. Gurbani states that He sat for ages in the void in deep contemplation/ meditation. The Gurus followed in His footsteps of self discovery. They urge Us to do the same, that's why they taught the world.



Unfortunately, you are not a god, and neither am I, so we are stuck with the written word, which is directed at the sangat, who are also not gods, so kindly clarify the statement you have made, first that god is a he, second, that in discovering himself, god was at some point not complete, as if you have things to discover, you are not complete, nor perfect.

Kindly comment, thank you


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (Jan 29, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> Sir I understand where you are coming from however no one can provide' evidence' either whether 'god' was self-created or not. We can say sggsj asserts 'akaal' etc is Saibhang but that is not proof, it's a assertion 'we' choose or find congruent to our experience, or rather a description which philosophically expresses a meta-physical truth. I believe it to be the truth but I can't prove it. Scientifically speaking I haven't found in my own 'khoj' anything anywhere that for me undermines the truth as expressed in mool mantar.. As someone who believes in testing ideas, expositions to find flaws in any given argument, the socratic method if you like. My belief in the  truth expressed in mool mantar is as yet unchallenged. Which however does not mean that at some point in the future something may change that. However even if something did modify my opinion and undermine my belief it would not mean that it was not true only that my understanding had been modified and I would then have to test and try to disprove /undermine the belief which had superceded my current belief.



You are mixing two things: religion and science; they are not the same, they have different base and basis to work upon.  Religion  has faith as the based which is developed based on the teachings of the guide, the Guru. Science is based on observations and practicals where some beliefs are put to experimentation to prove the facts. Sikhism is the faith developed by the Sikh on the teachings of the Guru; the teachings of ten Gurus and Sri Guru Granth Sahib which are not put to question by the followers; since they are based on on universal truths. The results of  experiments may be true or not only time tells. Most of the theories and the experiments are found to be undergoing continuous change;hence scientific truths cannot be said to be the permanent truths. Theories on forces, energies, atoms, light etc are continuously changing through new experiments. Theory of origin too have been continuously changing but the statement in Guru Nanak's hymn 'Arbad Narbad Dhundhukara', is proving more close to every new experimentation.


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## chazSingh (Jan 30, 2017)

Harry said:


> Unfortunately, you are not a god, and neither am I, so we are stuck with the written word, which is directed at the sangat, who are also not gods, so kindly clarify the statement you have made, first that god is a he, second, that in discovering himself, god was at some point not complete, as if you have things to discover, you are not complete, nor perfect.
> 
> Kindly comment, thank you



i know what you're getting at but i think this is a lot deeper than just the words perfect and complete...

*we cannot just say 'perfect' and then say it is a contradiction if God has to 'contemplate or discover'
If God is infinite...the discoveries are endless...right? how can you put a limit/boundary/ or an end to something infinite? but God can still be perfect right?*

SGGS Ji continupously says, God is alone...if God is alone...then there is no 'other'...
He created and He enjoys the creation i.e. participates in it...

He is alone...he wanted to share it somehow...and the only way possible was to become part of it, whilst also being beyond it..

*How can he trick himself into thinking there is another when there is only one?* by *Ego* of the mind...to difine another character, a body, (me, you, the lolipop lady) lol

To let the Ego evolve and harden, so much so, that He loses all connection to himself...He sits on Forums questioning whether He exists...lol....hence this current age...

So how can He pull himself out...when he's in *too deep?*

*By listening to his voice...shabad guru...in deep meditation...
as the ego dissolves...bit by bit...we realize we are just the one...perfect, yet made endless discoveries across the way  amazing...wah!*


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## Sikhilove (Jan 30, 2017)

Harry said:


> Unfortunately, you are not a god, and neither am I, so we are stuck with the written word, which is directed at the sangat, who are also not gods, so kindly clarify the statement you have made, first that god is a he, second, that in discovering himself, god was at some point not complete, as if you have things to discover, you are not complete, nor perfect.
> 
> Kindly comment, thank you



Lol, weve been through this before, to do so again would be wasting precious time.


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## Sikhilove (Jan 30, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> i know what you're getting at but i think this is a lot deeper than just the words perfect and complete...
> 
> *we cannot just say 'perfect' and then say it is a contradiction if God has to 'contemplate or discover'
> If God is infinite...the discoveries are endless...right? how can you put a limit/boundary/ or an end to something infinite? but God can still be perfect right?*
> ...



Ahh, your post gave me so much Sehaj. Finally someone who gets it, God Bless you!

I'd add that although were all one, we also have different souls connected to the supreme soul. Although He was the first Truth Knower. Beyond Logic and so stunning.


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## Harry (Jan 30, 2017)

I


Sikhilove said:


> Lol, weve been through this before, to do so again would be wasting precious time.



no problem, just post me a link where you provided the answer last time, I must have missed it, apologies


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## Harry (Jan 30, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> we cannot just say 'perfect' and then say it is a contradiction if God has to 'contemplate or discover'
> If God is infinite...the discoveries are endless...right? how can you put a limit/boundary/ or an end to something infinite? but God can still be perfect right?



your saying therefore that God  is still learning, as infinity is just that, infinite, rather than finite. Is God evolving? My own personal opinion is that God knows everything, always did, always will, if God is evolving, why have not the major religions had an upgrade over the years? Why is there not a religion 1.03, why is there not a Sikhism new release 1.02? What God would learn and evolve and then not share the details? Does this mean Hinduism, being an old religion, is out of date?

Surely God can transcend space and time, so learning itself is a moot subject, as is waiting, God therefore would have to be finite, ie, finished, complete, rather than infinite


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## chazSingh (Jan 31, 2017)

Harry said:


> your saying therefore that God  is still learning, as infinity is just that, infinite, rather than finite. Is God evolving? My own personal opinion is that God knows everything, always did, always will, if God is evolving, why have not the major religions had an upgrade over the years? Why is there not a religion 1.03, why is there not a Sikhism new release 1.02? What God would learn and evolve and then not share the details? Does this mean Hinduism, being an old religion, is out of date?
> 
> Surely God can transcend space and time, so learning itself is a moot subject, as is waiting, God therefore would have to be finite, ie, finished, complete, rather than infinite



is He still learning...i don't know...
We (me and You) would usually learn in knowledge and facts...

but we also learn in emotions....or something beyond that.....love...this is also learning..
and can we ever say, love has a definitive boundary...where we say that "ah i know what love is...this is it...this is its limits...and this is all it is"...


no we can't....it's just expressed and we fall deeper and deeper into it...endless...
not the fake stuff...someone loving their wife, then she cheats...and he stops loving her...

unconditional love...

Maybe it's Love...through all these experiences through creation...me and you...(little god particles, sat behind an ego)...we are learning about love...unconditional love...

i don't know dude ....this kind of stuff makes my ego mind hurt...because i can't really understand it..

so i sit and meditate and feel it at a very deep level...in the heart...but i always feel like i'm skimming the surface...always like there is more...and more...and more..

i guess i'm not making much sense...which is also not a bad thing...


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## Harry (Jan 31, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> is He still learning...i don't know...
> We (me and You) would usually learn in knowledge and facts...
> 
> but we also learn in emotions....or something beyond that.....love...this is also learning..
> ...



No your making perfect sense, you are a man in love, in love with the supreme, not many around like you, I respect you a lot for that, the thing that you are in love with is impossible to articulate, impossible to communicate. Reincarnation, the DG, eating meat, rituals, traditions, to you, they are irrelevant, is merely the love for the supreme that drives you. 

So the question as to whether God is finite or infinite is perhaps irrelevant to you, so I will ask you in a language that may resonate with you, is the force, the power that you love so much complete? Is it finite? If you could take a good hard look at this power within you, and share with us your feelings, I think it would help hugely, but only if directed at the question in hand.


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## chazSingh (Feb 2, 2017)

All I have learnt so far is that...we can not understand this force in 4 dimensional space alone. Therefore through study...talk..language...we will forever remain lost...we can only use this as a medium to inspire each other with

The moment you're pulled within..physics...distance...time...nothing makes sense anymore...and nothing can really be made sense of...you just have to go with the flow...

If I said to you everything...the whole universe and beyond is within your body...could you or me understand that...? Scientists will laugh at you...space explorers will laugh at you...it doesn't make sense...it's crazy.......but it's true...lol

Therefore there are no limits...just contentment...


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## sukhsingh (Feb 2, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> All I have learnt so far is that...we can not understand this force in 4 dimensional space alone. Therefore through study...talk..language...we will forever remain lost...we can only use this as a medium to inspire each other with
> 
> The moment you're pulled within..physics...distance...time...nothing makes sense anymore...and nothing can really be made sense of...you just have to go with the flow...
> 
> ...


There is no way for a human to know everything we can only aspire to learn and seek out the truth. I'm not even sure if contentment is a good ideal to pursue. Finding balance is desirable but contentment is  worthless if it selfish and self gratifying. It is that contradiction that motivates me to want to be a better person even though I feel I'm not doing a very good job of it


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## chazSingh (Feb 2, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> There is no way for a human to know everything we can only aspire to learn and seek out the truth. I'm not even sure if contentment is a good ideal to pursue. Finding balance is desirable but contentment is  worthless if it selfish and self gratifying. It is that contradiction that motivates me to want to be a better person even though I feel I'm not doing a very good job of it



I.ve never understood contentment to be selfish or self gratifying...so maybe we differ in what we think it is.

The river has a current...we can fight against the current or use a lot of energy to get ahead of it also...but sometimes it's better to flow along with it...become one with the current...contentment...
So I guess we are in a constant flow of going against this current or trying rushing ahead...and then boooom! you feel the 'force' ... the 'current'...and become one with it...and then be content...there's no better state to be in?

What's to seek anymore...when you 'become'. Maybe that's what Harry ji means by 'complete...'

God 'is' ... so is complete...but has the power to create...therefore infinite...and also beyond co-ordinates therefore no beginning and no end...

Cool stuff


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## Harry (Feb 3, 2017)

can something be complete and infinite?
Although we cannot understand God, with respect, we do know a few things about God, mainly what is stated in Mool Mantra, so there is some information to go on, the question is, is God complete? is God still learning? its an important question in my view.Given that in the Sikh view God always was, I cannot see how God can be infinite, as the infinite is still growing changing, and will never reach the finite. God, in Sikhism, in my view, cannot be anything other than perfect in every way, time, learning, growing and changing would all be irrelevant to such. 

I am disappointed that the member that introduced the idea that has got us all debating is absent from the debate, debate is not a win or lose situation, in my view it is the road to further understanding, it is not a war.


----------



## chazSingh (Feb 3, 2017)

Harry said:


> can something be complete and infinite?
> Although we cannot understand God, with respect, we do know a few things about God, mainly what is stated in Mool Mantra, so there is some information to go on, the question is, is God complete? is God still learning? its an important question in my view.Given that in the Sikh view God always was, I cannot see how God can be infinite, as the infinite is still growing changing, and will never reach the finite. God, in Sikhism, in my view, cannot be anything other than perfect in every way, time, learning, growing and changing would all be irrelevant to such.
> 
> I am disappointed that the member that introduced the idea that has got us all debating is absent from the debate, debate is not a win or lose situation, in my view it is the road to further understanding, it is not a war.



God is Complete because he 'is' ... he was in the beginning (when time began), is now, and forever will be...
But before creation...he was alone....he still is...but through creation, He is experiencing himself, his creative power and everything else from another viewpoint (we are the viewpoints)

If i am a computer programmer...creating the game is one thing....but imagine if i could really become the character(s) in the game...get so lost in the character(s) that i believe the 'game' is all that there is...i forget who i am...*the programmer...*

What if before i went into the Game, and became part of it..that i needed some way of pulling me out if i get in tooooo deeeeep! lol... hence i programmed in various characters to come and talk of 'the programmer' .... 'jesus' 'buddha' etc etc...The Guru...the Guru being the way to help me detach from the Game and woooosh, i realise i am the programmer... lol

Waheguru's Game (Creation) however is vast, unlimited...endless...dimensions, realms...
and i feel Waheguru has done this to learn more about Himself than he was able to whilst in deep contemplation on Himself...Endless other viewpoints (me and you) wondering through creation...but ultimately...returning back home....through Simran (remembrance)

If you're alone, whats the point of having this power to create if you are still alone? no one to share it with...
But what if you can create other viewpoints (through Ego)...lol...other viewpoints to marvel at the creation and think "Wah' "wah" each viewpoint having unique experiences of the creation...endless infinite experiences...

God is still complete...but Wow, Endless experiences of Himself, through himself...via me, you and my cat!...(the characters in the Game)...endless creations, endless everything...no boundary to what can be created and perceived...each individual character pushing forward that creative power...and that's why it's so important we clean our minds...because the direction is being created by Us...

I'm just letting out how i'm currently thinking and feeling..nothing else 
 Being the Character is not enough now...i would really like to uncover the truth....i hope i do...before the character ends...


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## Harry (Feb 3, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> I'm just letting out how i'm currently thinking and feeling..nothing else



and its great to read, its a great opinion, for in the debate, all we have are our opinions, opinions should not be dissected, there is much there I could, but I won't, as its your opinion, and you have not stated it as solid fact. 

my only comment would be I don't think God would get lonely, but then again, maybe he did, 

clearly the thought that god is still learning and sharing is not unique, thank you


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## chazSingh (Feb 3, 2017)

Harry said:


> and its great to read, its a great opinion, for in the debate, all we have are our opinions, opinions should not be dissected, there is much there I could, but I won't, as its your opinion, and you have not stated it as solid fact.
> 
> my only comment would be I don't think God would get lonely, but then again, maybe he did,
> 
> clearly the thought that god is still learning and sharing is not unique, thank you



And its important we contemplate these things...as i feel it's part of the process of pulling away just enough from our attachment to creation to look in the other direction...(within)...

Contemplation helps us stop...from our robotic lives...and for short moment just 'wonder'...it's a powerful tool...


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## Sikhilove (Feb 4, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> is He still learning...i don't know...
> We (me and You) would usually learn in knowledge and facts...
> 
> but we also learn in emotions....or something beyond that.....love...this is also learning..
> ...



You're making perfect sense. The discoveries are never ending. It's all True Unconditional Love.


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## Sikhilove (Feb 4, 2017)

Harry said:


> can something be complete and infinite?
> Although we cannot understand God, with respect, we do know a few things about God, mainly what is stated in Mool Mantra, so there is some information to go on, the question is, is God complete? is God still learning? its an important question in my view.Given that in the Sikh view God always was, I cannot see how God can be infinite, as the infinite is still growing changing, and will never reach the finite. God, in Sikhism, in my view, cannot be anything other than perfect in every way, time, learning, growing and changing would all be irrelevant to such.
> 
> I am disappointed that the member that introduced the idea that has got us all debating is absent from the debate, debate is not a win or lose situation, in my view it is the road to further understanding, it is not a war.



Apologies, I am currently overseas so I'm not here as regularly as I was. Chaz Ji is doing a pretty darn good job at explaining though, I don't really need to add much here.


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## Sikhilove (Feb 4, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> God is Complete because he 'is' ... he was in the beginning (when time began), is now, and forever will be...
> But before creation...he was alone....he still is...but through creation, He is experiencing himself, his creative power and everything else from another viewpoint (we are the viewpoints)
> 
> If i am a computer programmer...creating the game is one thing....but imagine if i could really become the character(s) in the game...get so lost in the character(s) that i believe the 'game' is all that there is...i forget who i am...*the programmer...*
> ...




I agree with all of this. But to take it further, He created us out of Love, His prime reason was to share his discovery with another.

We were created to realise what He did and in the process, He discovers Truth again and again through us. There is no real merit in going around in circles staying attached to the endless Maya illusion.

The aim is to find Balance. To always be able to speak from a balanced mind, instead of wasting time playing the game of life over and over. 

Before the character ends, Realise Who You Are. Theres no time like the present.


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## Harry (Feb 4, 2017)

so we have plenty personal opinions that state god is growing, learning, sharing, that god has needs, desires, therefore, the need to share, to grow, is there anyone that can shine a light on the actual Sikh line on the matter?


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## Sikhilove (Feb 4, 2017)

Like I said, we have been through this many times before. Please refer to previous threads. There is no merit in wasting time doing and going over the same thing over and over.


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## sukhsingh (Feb 4, 2017)

Personally I find that our attempts to define and capture futile.. What I struggle with Is to search without  the expectation of finding,to embrace the idea that we may only sense or experience  the  elusive beauty of freedom, love, truth etc fleetingly ...


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## Harry (Feb 4, 2017)

At the beginning of the SGGS is a description of God, as perceived in Sikhism, if such attempts are futile, I wonder what the point was in giving these descriptions such prominence?


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## Sikhilove (Feb 4, 2017)

Harry said:


> At the beginning of the SGGS is a description of God, as perceived in Sikhism, if such attempts are futile, I wonder what the point was in giving these descriptions such prominence?



God is One, Truth is His name. That should be enough. The entire Gurbani is an extension of mool mantar. 

We are waves in the Ocean of Truth, hence we are also One.


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## Harry (Feb 4, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> God is One, Truth is His name. That should be enough. The entire Gurbani is an extension of mool mantar.
> 
> We are waves in the Ocean of Truth, hence we are also One.



therefore if we were to try and find the real us, surely mool mantra would provide a template for that? what other ways are there to find out 'the real' us, stripped of all maya and illusion?


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## RD1 (Feb 4, 2017)

Harry said:


> what other ways are there to find out 'the real' us, stripped of all maya and illusion?



I feel we can never permanently find the 'real us' stripped of maya and illusion, and just be able to remain in that state...it seems there are brief moments in life where we may feel that 'real us,' but sooner than later ego, attachment, maya, illusion all come flooding back. And again, we are entangled and lost, blinded, and so so far away from that 'real us.'


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## Sikhilove (Feb 5, 2017)

Harry said:


> therefore if we were to try and find the real us, surely mool mantra would provide a template for that? what other ways are there to find out 'the real' us, stripped of all maya and illusion?



Yep. You are Truth, u always were. You just gotta realise and accept it.


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## Sikhilove (Feb 5, 2017)

RD1 said:


> I feel we can never permanently find the 'real us' stripped of maya and illusion, and just be able to remain in that state...it seems there are brief moments in life where we may feel that 'real us,' but sooner than later ego, attachment, maya, illusion all come flooding back. And again, we are entangled and lost, blinded, and so so far away from that 'real us.'



We are Nothing. No image, no form, no nothing. That's the most humble Truth- devoid of ego, attachment and fear.

When you're Nothing, and there is Nothing, what and who Is there to fear, to feel jealous of, attached to, angry at, lustful for and proud and egotistical of. This is a khel created for to realise our origin and True state.

We have nothing, we are nothing, were just lowest of the low.

Every thing u see is just Karam. It's God, Truth in false illusory forms.

See beyond the Illusion, why live to complication, the Truth is Simple.


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## Harry (Feb 5, 2017)

Although I agree with your philosophies, I find it hard to understand some of the things you write, so if I ask you for clarification, I am not trying to rile you , I simply want clarification as best you are able to, it would help understanding of your posts hugely, 



Sikhilove said:


> You just gotta realise and accept it.



how?



Sikhilove said:


> See beyond the Illusion, why live to complication, the Truth is Simple.



where would this state end up? in the sense, could one enjoy a family life, a normal life, or would one aim above that and see normal life as irrelevant?


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## Sikhilove (Feb 6, 2017)

Harry said:


> Although I agree with your philosophies, I find it hard to understand some of the things you write, so if I ask you for clarification, I am not trying to rile you , I simply want clarification as best you are able to, it would help understanding of your posts hugely,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Accept that youre Nothing.

Accept that everything in creation is Equal, and put your head on the ground and never pick it up.


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## Harry (Feb 6, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> Accept that youre Nothing.



Do you mean have no needs, desires, wants and be nothing?



Sikhilove said:


> accept that everything in creation is Equal, and put your head on the ground and never pick it up.




if everything were equal, we could marry anyone, and do any job and live anywhere, again, is this what you mean, if not, can you clarify, 

I apologise for being a pedant, I know on a lot of other forums such answers would be met with delighted nods and agreement, but this is a philosophy forum, your statements needs to be understood, thank you


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## chazSingh (Feb 6, 2017)

Harry said:


> Do you mean have no needs, desires, wants and be nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If your one desire is to seek waheguru then all other desires will just get in the way - right?
so why not love the people around you, but fight your minds useless desires...work hard at work..try to enjoy it..but have in mind that one desire of yours...waheguru..

Be nothing to me means, get rid of your Ego...but this is a very tough thing to do...with the mind that is full of Ego...

That is why it is the most important thing to go within...dip into the life current...Naam, as it has the power to dissolve the Ego...but the world will try to hold you back from the truth lol ... its designed to do that 
it wants you to dream and desire everything the world has to offer...and more...

but if you want to pull out of the world...if only for a moment...you need the help of the Current..to become nothing..the Ego is just your character...harry, chaz...
*
make that character into Nothing...and become everything...that's what appears to be the hard part...but i feel is supposed to be the easiest...if we look in the right direction..and have trust in it,,*


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## sukhsingh (Feb 6, 2017)

Harry said:


> At the beginning of the SGGS is a description of God, as perceived in Sikhism, if such attempts are futile, I wonder what the point was in giving these descriptions such prominence?


I'm confused? The descriptions are all encompassing articulate and eloquently embrace infinite characteristics?


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## sukhsingh (Feb 6, 2017)

I find tr


Sikhilove said:


> God is One, Truth is His name. That should be enough. The entire Gurbani is an extension of mool mantar.
> 
> We are waves in the Ocean of Truth, hence we are also One.


I find translations and transliterations problematic
 


sukhsingh said:


> I find tr
> 
> I find translations and transliterations problematic


One isn't the same as 1


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## sukhsingh (Feb 6, 2017)

Harry said:


> therefore if we were to try and find the real us, surely mool mantra would provide a template for that? what other ways are there to find out 'the real' us, stripped of all maya and illusion?


I think finding the true us within sikh theology is a oxy{censored}


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## RD1 (Feb 6, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> Be nothing to me means, get rid of your Ego...but this is a very tough thing to do...with the mind that is full of Ego...



Ego appears to be the main barrier. What are some practical steps to increase awareness of the ego, and limit its impact on our lives?
 


sukhsingh said:


> I think finding the true us within sikh theology is a oxy{censored}



Can you please elaborate?


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## sukhsingh (Feb 6, 2017)

RD1 said:


> Ego appears to be the main barrier. What are some practical steps to increase awareness of the ego, and limit its impact on our lives?
> 
> 
> Can you please elaborate?


It suggests that we can define and capture or Infact presume there is a true us.. Doesn't sikhi move away from absolutes?


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## Harry (Feb 6, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> If your one desire is to seek waheguru then all other desires will just get in the way - right?



Well if one were truly nothing, surely one would not even seek Waheguru, if one were truly nothing, one would just live, and Waheguru would be given by grace, not expectation.



chazSingh said:


> so why not love the people around you, but fight your minds useless desires...work hard at work..try to enjoy it..but have in mind that one desire of yours...waheguru..



sounds a bit like giving up on desiring one thing, and replacing it with the desire for another thing, should one desire Waheguru? Can such be addictive? 



chazSingh said:


> but if you want to pull out of the world...if only for a moment...you need the help of the Current..to become nothing..the Ego is just your character...harry, chaz...
> *
> make that character into Nothing...and become everything...that's what appears to be the hard part...but i feel is supposed to be the easiest...if we look in the right direction..and have trust in it,,*



thank you for your kind explanation, makes sense.,
 


sukhsingh said:


> I'm confused? The descriptions are all encompassing articulate and eloquently embrace infinite characteristics?



sorry, which bit confused?


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## Harry (Feb 6, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> I think finding the true us within sikh theology is a oxy{censored}



agreed, so wherein lies the problem, the search for the true us, if indeed such a state exists, or the use of Sikh theology as a tool?


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## chazSingh (Feb 7, 2017)

Harry said:


> Well if one were truly nothing, surely one would not even seek Waheguru, if one were truly nothing, one would just live, and Waheguru would be given by grace, not expectation.



Ego defines your body, your character...the "Me"ism...the barriers between "You" and "me"...the illusion of the Multiple, when there is only "IK"

Becoming nothing, sounds stupid...but it doesn't mean to really become nothing... lol ...its dissolving the hardened Ego as i just described above...once the Ego starts to Dissolve...the 'knowing' and experience of 'IK' starts to manifest...so you are slowly but surely starting to know the Truth again...the Truth of "you", the Real "You"

Not just the temporary Character called Harry ji, who works in a Computer shop, and will live 'n' number of years...lol

The 'seeking' is Grace...lol

I'm not saying that i;ve reached that place yet....believe me, i haven't but what i have thus far experienced has told me this shizzle is freaking true lol



> sounds a bit like giving up on desiring one thing, and replacing it with the desire for another thing, should one desire Waheguru? Can such be addictive?



*This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 409 *

_Cherish one desire only:
meditate continually on the Guru.
Install the wisdom of the Saints' Mantra.
Serve the Feet of the Guru,
and you shall meet Him, by Guru's Grace, O my mind. ||1||Pause||
All doubts are dispelled,
and the Lord is seen to be pervading all places.
The fear of death is dispelled,
and the primal place is obtained.
Then, all subservience is removed. 
One who has such destiny recorded upon his forehead, obtains it;
he crosses over the terrifying ocean of fire.
He obtains a place in the home of his own self,_


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## sukhsingh (Feb 7, 2017)

Harry said:


> sorry, which bit confused?





Harry said:


> At the beginning of the SGGS is a description of God, as perceived in Sikhism, if such attempts are futile, I wonder what the point was in giving these descriptions such prominence?



I'm confused because I don't see mool mantar as giving description of 'god' and I think when we use the term God in sikhi it is so restrictive as to cloud any discussion


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## Harry (Feb 8, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> I'm confused because I don't see mool mantar as giving description of 'god' and I think when we use the term God in sikhi it is so restrictive as to cloud any discussion



thank you for opening a new thread on this, I will respond there


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## chazSingh (Feb 8, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> I'm confused because I don't see mool mantar as giving description of 'god' and I think when we use the term God in sikhi it is so restrictive as to cloud any discussion




it gives you a fair bit to go on...  but to really understand it, you have to understand and follow the rest of the SGGS Ji and then live it and become it...

an i think in the end, we'll realise the Mool Manter is also describing us..


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## Sikhilove (Feb 9, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> If your one desire is to seek waheguru then all other desires will just get in the way - right?
> so why not love the people around you, but fight your minds useless desires...work hard at work..try to enjoy it..but have in mind that one desire of yours...waheguru..
> 
> Be nothing to me means, get rid of your Ego...but this is a very tough thing to do...with the mind that is full of Ego...
> ...



Awesome post 

I agree but going further again, we don't even need to desire Waheguru. When u give up desires/ ego, you automatically vibrate at the Truth frequency. No desires, no ego= nothing.

Image is desire. Everything u think about, is a desire. The trick is to not become attached to your thoughts or image. People meditate on Gurus and images of Sants etc because they're the Truth in form. Gurus eradicated their desires and so lived in hukam- in acceptance of karam.


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## Sikhilove (Feb 9, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> Ego defines your body, your character...the "Me"ism...the barriers between "You" and "me"...the illusion of the Multiple, when there is only "IK"
> 
> Becoming nothing, sounds stupid...but it doesn't mean to really become nothing... lol ...its dissolving the hardened Ego as i just described above...once the Ego starts to Dissolve...the 'knowing' and experience of 'IK' starts to manifest...so you are slowly but surely starting to know the Truth again...the Truth of "you", the Real "You"
> 
> ...



Yep, were already Nothing, but we're so hardened by Maya conditioning that we need to break it away bit by bit. It's a process of elimination. 

Contentment, gratitude, bandgi etc are all required on the path. Naam is everything anyway, so when we practice naam, we are realising and accepting that we are All which is also Nothing. Seeing Truth in the positive and negative and loving All unconditionally is breaking the barriers and the illusion- Nirboah and Nirvair.


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## Sikhilove (Feb 9, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> I'm confused because I don't see mool mantar as giving description of 'god' and I think when we use the term God in sikhi it is so restrictive as to cloud any discussion



God is Truth, We are Truth- Truth is mool mantar.

Satnaam- Truth is His name.

It's simple but we complicate things.


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## Harry (Feb 9, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> I agree but going further again, we don't even need to desire Waheguru. When u give up desires/ ego, you automatically vibrate at the Truth frequency. No desires, no ego= nothing.



may I ask if this is something you practice or just an ideal that you aspire to?


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## chazSingh (Feb 9, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> Awesome post
> 
> I agree but going further again, we don't even need to desire Waheguru. When u give up desires/ ego, you automatically vibrate at the Truth frequency. No desires, no ego= nothing.
> 
> Image is desire. Everything u think about, is a desire. The trick is to not become attached to your thoughts or image. People meditate on Gurus and images of Sants etc because they're the Truth in form. Gurus eradicated their desires and so lived in hukam- in acceptance of karam.




yup, we don't need to desire..
problem is, we're coming from a world we're desires drive us...

so what i found initially in my Simran was that i had to have a desire to do it...a desire to want to know the truth...and this helped me fight the other desires...

I also used the Dukh in my life, as the cure...it drove me to wake up in the morning, where otherwise i would have continued to be lazy...dukh being the blessing

but as time wore on...the desire dissolves  in its place manifests love...and thats what drives you...


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## sukhsingh (Feb 9, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> God is Truth, We are Truth- Truth is mool mantar.
> 
> Satnaam- Truth is His name.
> 
> It's simple but we complicate things.


I'm not yet convinced satnaam=truth is 'his name... Feels clumsy as a translation. 

Satnaam = expressed as truth?


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## Sikhilove (Feb 9, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> yup, we don't need to desire..
> problem is, we're coming from a world we're desires drive us...
> 
> so what i found initially in my Simran was that i had to have a desire to do it...a desire to want to know the truth...and this helped me fight the other desires...
> ...



Yep, even the Gurus asked for Naam.

Dukh indeed is a blessing, and the wise realise it. It gets us out of complacency and causes us to detach from the face of the khel.

The more pain, the more detachment. The age of Kalyug is a blessing of a time to be alive, for its in the darkest times that we're more able to detach with the greatest light.


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## sukhsingh (Feb 9, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> Yep, even the Gurus asked for Naam.
> 
> Dukh indeed is a blessing, and the wise realise it. It gets us out of complacency and causes us to detach from the face of the khel.
> 
> The more pain, the more detachment. The age of Kalyug is a blessing of a time to be alive, for its in the darkest times that we're more able to detach with the greatest light.


Dukh and sukh should be both welcomed. They both teach us about the nature of the world and illuminate deficiencies within ourselves and around us as well as showing us the possibilities of what can be, not only for ourselves but for those less fortunate


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## Sikhilove (Feb 9, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> I'm not yet convinced satnaam=truth is 'his name... Feels clumsy as a translation.
> 
> Satnaam = expressed as truth?



Again, overcomplication. 

Dont get caught up in logistics. 

God Is Truth, and Naam is truth. 

Either way it means Truth is Naam including God.


----------



## Sikhilove (Feb 9, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> Dukh and sukh should be both welcomed. They both teach us about the nature of the world and illuminate deficiencies within ourselves and around us as well as showing us the possibilities of what can be, not only for ourselves but for those less fortunate



True, but many forget truth in Sukh. Some will remember but at times, dukh is the slap we need.


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## sukhsingh (Feb 9, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> Again, overcomplication.
> 
> Dont get caught up in logistics.
> 
> ...


Yes I agree but semantics are important!. But as you articulated it differently here than before ie. "truth is 'his' name"..?


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## sukhsingh (Feb 9, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> True, but many forget truth in Sukh. Some will remember but at times, dukh is the slap we need.


For me dukh offers us a insight into the human condition, what we share, rather than what separates us.. The loss of of a loved one, a child, hunger, poverty injustice etc experiencing racism and prejudices gives me some sense of the irrationally of prejudices within oneself


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## swarn bains (Feb 9, 2017)

satnaam means in my dictionary  it is true there is God


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## Theologian. (Feb 9, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> Ok, so now i know a little more about you and your general beliefs and idea through your study of religions...
> 
> Things is...personally i wouldn't want to be on my death bed having lived my life and just studied!!...
> i want to live...
> ...


 
I was never religious or wanted to be. When a youth is growing up and being


chazSingh said:


> Ok, so now i know a little more about you and your general beliefs and idea through your study of religions...
> 
> Things is...personally i wouldn't want to be on my death bed having lived my life and just studied!!...
> i want to live...
> ...


 
I never was religious, and unfortunately was tricked into the wrong side of life due to my stupidity. I guess who hasn't be lied to or tricked right? Just this time it was a life altering experience. I reckon I have lived more than most have in terms of possibilities in our lives, but its something more to be ashamed of.

As they say knowledge is power.


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## sukhsingh (Feb 9, 2017)

swarn bains said:


> satnaam means in my dictionary  it is true there is God


I like your version as it makes me review and consider my own position and provide a definition to test against.. 

Its unfortunate we have such a gap in academic discourse to refer to and draw upon to help structure our own dialogues.. One of the greatest losses for Sikhs was the loss of all the books lost when guru sahib left anandpur..


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## Theologian. (Feb 9, 2017)

dalvindersingh grewal said:


> have you got any evidence to confirm your belief that God was not self created other than Sri Guru Granth Sahib where it is defined as 'saibhang': self created.


 
This universe is created and scientists who hate to say it, admit it because it means science is not the top governing authority of our world. Rather than say God, they say evolution as it stirs them from admitting defeat to their believes of Science proving 'Everything'. Evolution has been proven to be false and hence has theory at the end of its title.

The first Law of thermodynamics tells us that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed.
If matter and energy cannot create itself, and at some point in history the universe had a
beginning, then where did all this matter and energy come from? If God is eternal, that he has no end or beginning, then he always has and always will be. If we take for example that someone created God, then someone will asked who created God? Then they will ask who created the one that created God?  And who created him? And then him? An unending unanswerable cycle.
You would have an infinite line of creations with no Authentic Creator.
Unless....
You came across an Eternal God, whom is the foundation of all creation.
Quantum science can give you a very close idea, but for ease we will continue.

You must realise that God is not in our universe, he is not bound to our rules of time or our dimensions. As our universe points to a beginning we have a Creator due to causation law.
Hence you cannot apply your understanding of your view of this universe to the unseen. An finite mind cannot comprehend infinite comprehensions. As we are finite beings and die in body, then can a finite existence, exist without an infinite source? Please remember time did not exist before this universe, so there is no time for God to make the universe in.

All we need to know that there is a creator, and we can see this from many things around us. There is a reason we have limited intelligence, as our world generally is evil. If we all had more intelligence I don't think we would be here today, but then again can evil exist without an infinite being?



Just for note the answer is yes.


Backup account being used.


----------



## Theologian. (Feb 9, 2017)

Harry said:


> may I ask if this is something you practice or just an ideal that you aspire to?


 
I must agree, without Waheguru everything fails, even the physical. The Wonderful Counsellor/teacher is the one whom through everything is contained and held. Without him, we are lost, the Gurus would have not gained the knowledge or mainly Guru Nanak to pass on without Waheguru/Wonderful Counsellors help.


----------



## chazSingh (Feb 10, 2017)

Theologian. said:


> I was never religious or wanted to be. When a youth is growing up and being
> 
> 
> I never was religious, and unfortunately was tricked into the wrong side of life due to my stupidity. I guess who hasn't be lied to or tricked right? Just this time it was a life altering experience. I reckon I have lived more than most have in terms of possibilities in our lives, but its something more to be ashamed of.
> ...



knowledge through study is powerful
knowledge through actual first hand experience...well, that's just liberating...


----------



## Theologian. (Feb 10, 2017)

dalvindersingh grewal said:


> have you got any evidence to confirm your belief that God was not self created other than Sri Guru Granth Sahib where it is defined as 'saibhang': self created.


 Oh and to give you a straight answer after my previous replies on:

Is God self-created?

As God is outside our world n dimensions n time, he is in an eternal world, where in our time he is the same yesterday, same today and same tomorrow. Meaning he has always been there and cannot be created as he is not matter or any other materialistic compound. For further evidence please read my previous posts just before this one.


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## Sikhilove (Feb 12, 2017)

Theologian. said:


> This universe is created and scientists who hate to say it, admit it because it means science is not the top governing authority of our world. Rather than say God, they say evolution as it stirs them from admitting defeat to their believes of Science proving 'Everything'. Evolution has been proven to be false and hence has theory at the end of its title.
> 
> The first Law of thermodynamics tells us that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed.
> If matter and energy cannot create itself, and at some point in history the universe had a
> ...



The evil is God aswell. Everything is His frequency. 

See God In the Good and the Bad, dark and light, dukh and sukh. Hes beyond duality.


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## Theologian. (Feb 13, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> The evil is God aswell. Everything is His frequency.
> 
> See God In the Good and the Bad, dark and light, dukh and sukh. Hes beyond duality.


 
WOW....


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## chazSingh (Feb 13, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> The evil is God aswell. Everything is His frequency.
> 
> See God In the Good and the Bad, dark and light, dukh and sukh. Hes beyond duality.



It's all Waheguru...!

Beyond Duality, but Duality helps us recognise and remember Him...
just as the darkness helps us question, research and know 'Light'...The temporary helps us see the permanent...


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## Theologian. (Feb 13, 2017)

IF 'evil is God' then:

*God is wicked
*God is wrong
*God is Ungodly
*God is sinful
*God is unholy
etc...

IF that is.



evil
ˈiːv(ə)l,ˈiːvɪl/wicked, bad, wrong, morally wrong, wrongful, immoral, sinful, ungodly, unholy, foul, vile, base, ignoble, dishonourable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, degenerate, villainous, nefarious, sinister, vicious, malicious, malevolent, demonic, devilish, diabolic, diabolical, fiendish, dark, black-hearted;More
monstrous, shocking, despicable, atrocious, heinous, odious, contemptible, horrible, execrable;
_informal_low-down, stinking, dirty, shady, warped, bent, crooked;
_archaic_dastardly, black;
_rare_egregious, flagitious, peccable
"an evil deed"
antonyms: good, virtuous

(of a force or spirit) embodying or associated with the forces of the devil.
"we were driven out of the house by an evil spirit"
harmful or tending to harm.
"the evil effects of high taxes"
synonyms: harmful, hurtful, injurious, detrimental, deleterious, inimical, bad, mischievous, pernicious, malignant, malign, baleful, venomous, noxious, poisonous;More
corrupting, subversive;
calamitous, disastrous, destructive, ruinous;
_literary_malefic, maleficent;
_rareprejudicious_
"the evil influence of society"
unlucky, unfortunate, unfavourable, adverse, unhappy, disastrous, catastrophic, ruinous, calamitous, unpropitious, inauspicious, dire, woeful
"she helped those who had fallen on evil times"
antonyms: good, beneficial

*2*.
(of a smell or sight) extremely unpleasant.
"a bathroom with an ineradicably evil smell"
synonyms: unpleasant, disagreeable, nasty, horrible, foul, filthy, vile;More
inclement, wet, rainy, stormy, squally, blustery, cold, freezing, foggy
"his army suffered in the evil weather"
antonyms: pleasant, fine
_noun_
noun: *evil*

*1*.
profound immorality and wickedness, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.
"his struggle against the forces of evil"
synonyms: wickedness, bad, badness, wrong, wrongdoing, sin, sinfulness, ungodliness, immorality, vice, iniquity, turpitude, degeneracy, vileness, baseness, perversion, corruption, depravity, villainy, nefariousness, atrocity, malevolence, devilishness;More
_informal_shadiness, crookedness;
_rare_peccability, peccancy
"I sense the evil in our midst"
antonyms: goodness


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## Sikhilove (Feb 14, 2017)

Theologian. said:


> IF 'evil is God' then:
> 
> *God is wicked
> *God is wrong
> ...



Have you read Guru Granth Sahib Ji?


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## Sikhilove (Feb 14, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> It's all Waheguru...!
> 
> Beyond Duality, but Duality helps us recognise and remember Him...
> just as the darkness helps us question, research and know 'Light'...The temporary helps us see the permanent...



Of course. We are deluded, lost in the web of Maya. 

To get out we need to neutralise our worldly logic, the illusion of thinking that dukh and sukh are separate. See hell in heaven and heaven in hell, pain in pleasure and pleasure in pain- hence pain is the remedy. 

The psychology we practice is all to Derive the balance.

This is especially required now in Kalyug, where people are especially deluded.


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## chazSingh (Feb 14, 2017)

Theologian. said:


> IF 'evil is God' then:
> 
> *God is wicked
> *God is wrong
> ...



In this creation of Duality...Evil plays it's part...but it's by design...Some of us learn through doing evil acts...others see the destruction caused through evil and learn from the actions of others...

Gurbani tells us to distinguish from the two...and lean towards good...
but by design everything is within Waheguru...His Design...His thought...all serving it's purpose...

It's up to us how we live through this...and ultimately see what envelopes the duality...what is beyond the duality and become one with it..


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## Sikhilove (Feb 16, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> In this creation of Duality...Evil plays it's part...but it's by design...Some of us learn through doing evil acts...others see the destruction caused through evil and learn from the actions of others...
> 
> Gurbani tells us to distinguish from the two...and lean towards good...
> but by design everything is within Waheguru...His Design...His thought...all serving it's purpose...
> ...



Cool post. Being a saint is just being true to yourself and all around you. We are Nothing but slaves at His feet-dukh and sukh are one and the same.


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## Theologian. (Feb 18, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> Have you read Guru Granth Sahib Ji?


 
I have used your words and added the word 'IF' and the word 'then' and have posted the definition of evil.

What issue do you have with the term:

'Evil is God'?

Please use reference quote to the Guru Granth Sahib if you are implying; not reading the SGGS, so we have a source to go by and exchange viewpoints.
Thanks


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## Sikhilove (Feb 21, 2017)

Theologian. said:


> I have used your words and added the word 'IF' and the word 'then' and have posted the definition of evil.
> 
> What issue do you have with the term:
> 
> ...



Various passages in gurbani state that the master has many dresses and forms in this khel. 



Theologian. said:


> I have used your words and added the word 'IF' and the word 'then' and have posted the definition of evil.
> 
> What issue do you have with the term:
> 
> ...



"All are in the One, and the One is in all." (SGGS p907).


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## Theologian. (Feb 21, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> Various passages in gurbani state that the master has many dresses and forms in this khel.
> 
> 
> 
> "All are in the One, and the One is in all." (SGGS p907).


 
If not then that is ok, just to be clear I am not asking for something generalised but where your believe 'evil' in the text it was written.

Any quotes to point to evil?

Please make your defensive for evil - God.

God did not create evil. Just as darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of God. - A.E.

Heat has its opposite of cold. White has its opposite of black. Right has its opposite of wrong. Male has its opposite of Female. Heaven has its opposite of Hell. Angel has its opposite of Demon. Good has its opposite of Evil. God has its opposite of; as mentioned in SGGS; the messenger of death(Devil).
One cannot exist without the other in 'our universe'; not talking about outside in eternity.

If God was dual, then that would make him change from A to B and back on his views. Then he would be changing, and what the evidence is around us and in context does not suggest this. The rules for heaven and his court of judgment are mentioned in Japji Sahib.

As a small example due to time constraints:

Mammon
ˈmamən/
_noun_
noun: *Mammon*

wealth regarded as an evil influence or false object of worship and devotion.
Japji Sahib page 5 -

Pure God, unaffected by mammon, is all by himself. 

The SGGS is about God being love and how to escape sin, this is written the most about and literally on every page or 2/3 at the minimum.


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## Theologian. (Feb 21, 2017)

dalvindersingh grewal said:


> God has come from no where. He was ther ab initio; he has been there through all the ages; he is there now and will be there as it is. Aad(i) sach(u), jugad(i) sach(u), hai bhi sach(u), hosi bhi sach(u). He is Saibhang (self created).


 

Update:

Japji Sahib - Page 5

God has not been and cannot be created or established by anyone(2)

Settled on my part


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## chazSingh (Feb 22, 2017)

Theologian. said:


> If not then that is ok, just to be clear I am not asking for something generalised but where your believe 'evil' in the text it was written.
> 
> Any quotes to point to evil?
> 
> ...



SGGS is quite clear....there is nothing but God...
there is no other space outside of God, and there is no 'other'
Ego was created to form the illusion of the 'other' but its all God...

So if Evil Exists, if good exists....hot cold, light dark etc....then it exists within God...nothing can be outside of God...there is no other place but God..

This is what we will never get our heads (ego) around...we have to search for experience of this...of God...and have it in this moment, in this life...

Duality is a creation of God...it is* temporary..*..
we must seek to experience the *Permanent*...True Love...God
Duality, evil, good and bad, creation...will dissolve away...once we start to experience the one...and understand it...undertand we're one....just one...

even the opposite of Permanent is the temporary lol....experiencing the Temporary allows us to seek and then experience the One lol...experiencing darkness made humans question what the opposite was...they called it 'light'...then they studied it, ran experiments...now it's written in science books 
Without darkness existing...no one would have ever questioned what light is...why would they if there was no opposite..


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## Sikhilove (Feb 22, 2017)

Theologian. said:


> If not then that is ok, just to be clear I am not asking for something generalised but where your believe 'evil' in the text it was written.
> 
> Any quotes to point to evil?
> 
> ...



What is dark and what is light? It's It's just symbolic reflection. Truth has no form, no colour, na roop na rekh n.a. rang. 

Light and dark are duality. 

The truth is nothing but a frequency beyond what mortals can comprehend. 

What u speak of is worldly logic.

Truth needs no Defensive. 

Hence I have no need to post gurbani which if you were serious about bhagti, u would already have read. I read the whole Granth when in my teens.

Read Guru Granth Sahib ji yourself and discover the gyan i speak.


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## Sikhilove (Feb 22, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> SGGS is quite clear....there is nothing but God...
> there is no other space outside of God, and there is no 'other'
> Ego was created to form the illusion of the 'other' but its all God...
> 
> ...



Awesome post. Very nice to see a bhagat on the right track. Very rare 

Dukh daru sukh rog bhaiya

Eventually we see that even light is an illusion. Its all just symbolic reflection- the light of Truth symbolises the formless Sat.


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## Harry (Feb 23, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> Hence I have no need to post gurbani which if you were serious about bhagti, u would already have read. I read the whole Granth when in my teens.
> 
> Read Guru Granth Sahib ji yourself and discover the gyan i speak.



Although I admire your modesty, sorry to correct you but your wrong, this is a forum where we back up what we write with substance, you have a habit of avoiding answering questions that you are unable to, that is not gyan, I have asked you several times if you live by what you write, you have refused, you talk of living by nothing of being nothing, yet you are getting married and have travelled to the middle east, that does not make sense to me, can you clarify your position please, if you have this much gyan and knowledge, how does being nothing and wanting nothing allow you to travel and fall in love?


----------



## Sikhilove (Feb 23, 2017)

Harry said:


> Although I admire your modesty, sorry to correct you but your wrong, this is a forum where we back up what we write with substance, you have a habit of avoiding answering questions that you are unable to, that is not gyan, I have asked you several times if you live by what you write, you have refused, you talk of living by nothing of being nothing, yet you are getting married and have travelled to the middle east, that does not make sense to me, can you clarify your position please, if you have this much gyan and knowledge, how does being nothing and wanting nothing allow you to travel and fall in love?



The answers lie in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Here is a place to explain and expand on the gyan, if youve already read it and accepted it, theres no need to waste time quoting which i did anyway, when i wrote dukh daru sukh rog Bhaiya. 

If I could read the whole Granth in my teens, it can't be that much of a difficult thing to do.


----------



## Harry (Feb 23, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> The answers lie in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Here is a place to explain and expand on the gyan, if youve already read it and accepted it, theres no need to waste time quoting which i did anyway, when i wrote dukh daru sukh rog Bhaiya.
> 
> If I could read the whole Granth in my teens, it can't be that much of a difficult thing to do.



more proselytising, still no answers, and quoting one liners to support an agenda is not, I do believe, why the SGGS was written, if you are going to quote, please quote the full shabad with your understanding of it and why it is relevant. 

Reading, understanding and then living the SGGS would seem the logical step to following such, solely reading will not really get you anywhere, other than raising your ego, clearly understanding did not take place otherwise you would not be pushing websites for living Gurus. Unless you are willing to waste time clarifying your posts, I am afraid that your role appears to be pushing your own agenda, without even following it, which is not acceptable as per the terms and conditions of this forum.


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## Theologian. (Feb 25, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> Have you read Guru Granth Sahib Ji?


 
I have read and studied it as well as other religious books; but still not enough.

Let me ask you a question then if you feel your knowledge or understanding is greater.

Question) Who covers the sins of each of us here on Earth? After the phrase used by Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


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## Theologian. (Feb 25, 2017)

chazSingh said:


> SGGS is quite clear....there is nothing but God...
> there is no other space outside of God, and there is no 'other'
> Ego was created to form the illusion of the 'other' but its all God...
> 
> ...


 
Your statement: "there is no other space outside of God, and there is no 'other'"
Then after: "Ego was created to form the illusion of the 'other'"

God is NOT evil, please refer a quote; I have asked for this and I am getting your views rather than giving the views of the higher knowledge of the Gurbani. Same goes for Sikhilove; who keeps iterating they have read it and not post one quote with the words along the line of: 'God is evil'.

Here are some of my quotes to finish my case that God is NOT evil. God does however have POWER over evil, as he is the highest authority, but he is not evil. He does not go around giving people cancers and sufferings, evil does. Hence God is NOT evil. The messenger of death and demons are quoted on several times, do you think a demon or God is more plausible to you? Or will you continue to defend something so much that you can not ever be wrong even if quotes are put in front of you. I make many mistakes every day, I have a foolish head. But I realised my mistakes and how to deal with them.

kwm k®oD moh bis pRwnI hir mUriq ibsrweI ] (219-5)
kaam kroDh moh bas paraanee har moorat bisraa-ee.
The mortal beings are held in the power of sexual desire, anger and emotional attachment; they have forgotten the Lord
Aihinis AauD GtY nhI jwnY BieE loB sMig haurw ]1] rhwau ] (220-9)
ahinis a-oDh ghatai nahee jaanai bha-i-o lobh sang ha-uraa. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Don't you know that your life is decreasing, day and night? Your life is made worthless with greed. ||1||Pause||
jo qnu qY Apno kir mwinE Aru suMdr igRh nwrI ] (220-9)
jo tan tai apno kar maani-o ar sundar garih naaree.
That body, which you believe to be your own, and your beautiful home and spouse
ien mYN kCu qyro ry nwhin dyKo soc ibcwrI ]1] (220-10)
in maiN kachh tayro ray naahan daykho soch bichaaree. ||1||
- none of these is yours to keep. See this, reflect upon it and understand
nr Acyq pwp qy fru ry ] (220-13)
nar achayt paap tay dar ray.
You people are unconscious; you should be afraid of sin.
mwns dyh bhuir nh pwvY kCU aupwau mukiq kw kru ry ] (220-15)
maanas dayh bahur nah paavai kachhoo upaa-o mukat kaa kar ray.
You shall not obtain this human body again; make the effort - try to achieve liberation!

mnu vis dUqw durmiq doie ] (222-2)
man vas dootaa durmat do-ay.
The mind is under the power of the demons of evil intellect and duality.
mnu BUlo bhu icqY ivkwru ] (222-3)
man bhoolo baho chitai vikaar.
The deluded mind thinks of all sorts of corruption.
iKmw ghI bRqu sIl sMqoKM ] (223-15)
khimaa gahee barat seel santokhaN.
To practice forgiveness is the true fast, good conduct and contentment.


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## Sikhilove (Mar 5, 2017)

Theologian. said:


> Your statement: "there is no other space outside of God, and there is no 'other'"
> Then after: "Ego was created to form the illusion of the 'other'"
> 
> God is NOT evil, please refer a quote; I have asked for this and I am getting your views rather than giving the views of the higher knowledge of the Gurbani. Same goes for Sikhilove; who keeps iterating they have read it and not post one quote with the words along the line of: 'God is evil'.
> ...



Quote: Ik Oankar. We love him in the good and the bad, in dukh and sukh, light and dark, happiness and sadness. He is One- beyond duality.

if you quote, please remember to source the quote thank you


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## Theologian. (Mar 5, 2017)

Reference please.

Ik Onkar -

r the monotheistic religion founded in the United States and named after an alternative transliteration of the "Ik Onkār" phrase, see Eckankar.



_Ik Onkār_,[1] a Sikh symbol (encoded as a single character in Unicode at U+0A74, ੴ)
_*Ik Onkar*_ (Gurmukhi: ੴ, ਇੱਕ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ; *Ikk Ōankār* Punjabi pronunciation: [ɪkː oəŋkaɾ]) is the symbol that represents the *One Supreme Reality[2]* and is a central tenet of Sikh religious philosophy.[1] _Ik_ (ਇੱਕ) means one and only one, who cannot be compared or contrasted with any other,[3] (ਓਅੰਕਾਰ) is the one universal ever flowing divine melody and existential unstuck never ending sound of God.
To simplify Ik means one, Oang the creator and Kar means the creation. So the creator and his creation are not different and He the supreme creator resides everywhere and in everything.
The sound is Oang (anhad naad) and Kar is the never ending continuation of Oang sound. This melody manifests in billions of galaxies and universes and leads to protect and preserve. Ultimately, everything gets merged back into this sound; this has happened countless times before.
It is a symbol of the unity of God in Sikhism, meaning God is One or One God,[4] and is found in all religious scriptures and places such as Gurdwaras. Derived from Punjabi, _Ik Onkār_ is the first phrase in the Mool Mantar referring to the existence of "one constant divine melody" which is proved by Gurbani itself in:
ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਏਕ ਧੁਨਿ ਏਕੈ।।
Oangkar one and only divine melody
ਏਕੈ ਰਾਗੁ ਅਲਾਪੈ।।
One melody is tuned
ਏਕਾ ਦੇਸੀ ਏਕੁ ਦਿਖਾਵੈ ਏਕੋ ਰਹਿਆ ਬਿਆਪੈ।। ਮਹਲਾ ੫
One is his land, one way he shows and that one is omnipresent.
ਅੰਗ ੮੮੫
Page 885 (Shree Guru Granth Sahib Ji)
ਓਅੰ ਆਦਿ ਸਰੂਪੈ।।
ਓਅੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕੀੲੋ ਪਸਾਰਾ।।
[5]
It is found in the Gurmukhi script[6] and is consequently also part of the Sikh morning prayer, Japji Sahib. It is a combination of two characters, the numeral ੧, _Ikk_ (one) and the first letter of the word _Onkar_ (Constant taken to mean God) - which also happens to be the first letter of the Gurmukhī script - an ūṛā, ੳ, coupled with a specially adapted vowel symbol hōṛā, yielding ਓ.


Taken from Wikipedia, yes the same Wikipedia that I have criticised before in putting forward an argument, but now it is more easier and quicker to correct, which I mention now to the advantage. Hypocritical, yes I am guilty for exterior reason to this topic.


----------



## Sikhilove (Mar 6, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> Quote: Ik Oankar. We love him in the good and the bad, in dukh and sukh, light and dark, happiness and sadness. He is One- beyond duality.
> 
> if you quote, please remember to source the quote thank you



Ik Oankar- page 1, Line 1 Guru Granth Sahib Ji (this is ridiculous but its the kind of rubbish that humans waste time doing).


----------



## Sikhilove (Mar 6, 2017)

Theologian. said:


> Reference please.
> 
> Ik Onkar -
> 
> ...




So.... If the creator and creation are One, then there is no good or bad only Him.


----------



## Harry (Mar 6, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> Ik Oankar- page 1, Line 1 Guru Granth Sahib Ji (this is ridiculous but its the kind of rubbish that humans waste time doing).



your post states

Quote: Ik Oankar. We love him in the good and the bad, in dukh and sukh, light and dark, happiness and sadness. He is One- beyond duality.

It appears the whole line is the quote, not the first two words. I take the it the words after are your own, it does not seem clear to this human as I tend to use quote when something is quoted...


----------



## Sikhilove (Mar 6, 2017)

Harry said:


> your post states
> 
> Quote: Ik Oankar. We love him in the good and the bad, in dukh and sukh, light and dark, happiness and sadness. He is One- beyond duality.
> 
> It appears the whole line is the quote, not the first two words. I take the it the words after are your own, it does not seem clear to this human as I tend to use quote when something is quoted...



Fair enough


----------



## Original (Mar 7, 2017)

Let's have a look at what baba Nanak says about *Theologians*, shall we !

*...vel na paaeeyaa pandati [Japji Sahib, p 4]*

Interpretation

The pandits know not the dawn of creation;
Nor, have the qazies seen the time to have made a note in the Quran,
Yogis too, couldn't have hazard a guess, even if they tried !

Can one really have knowledge of the *unknown* ? For if one's starting point is something of the unknown and, one's conclusion and intermediate steps are also made up of the unknown, how can the resulting consistency ever by any measurable means become knowledge ?

Nanak's nirankar cannot be known through intellectual investigations, but alone through non-physical means and that too, at the grace of waheguru [gur Prasad]. Nanak elaborates in japji sahib, thus, '..if anyone claims to know nirankar, he is as close as, North is to the north pole'.

Have fun....

Goodnight


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## Theologian. (Mar 8, 2017)

Original said:


> Let's have a look at what baba Nanak says about *Theologians*, shall we !
> 
> *...vel na paaeeyaa pandati [Japji Sahib, p 4]*
> 
> ...


 
So you spent time to come into this thread in order to slander me, without making a valid argument but twisting writings of a Holy book to your agenda of malice on me.

Guru Nanak was not addressing 'Theologian.'


*PANDIT*
pandit
ˈpandɪt/
_noun_
noun: *pandit*; plural noun: *pandits*
a Hindu scholar learned in Sanskrit and Hindu philosophy and religion, typically also a practising priest.
"the pandit chants the marriage mantras"

Indian
a wise man or teacher.
"Pandit Madan Mohan Malaviya"
Indian
a talented musician (used as a respectful title or form of address).
"Panditji played the refrain"
 
*QAZI*
*qa•di*
(ˈkɑ di, ˈkeɪ-) 

_n., _ _pl. _ *-dis.*
a judge in a Muslim community, whose decisions are based on Islamic religious law.
[1895–1900; < Arabic _qādī_ judge]

*YOGI*

yogi
ˈjəʊɡi/
_noun_
noun: *yogi*; plural noun: *yogis*

a person who is proficient in yoga
I am sorry if I have stirred something within you, if you address me straight then I will correct and humble myself if I am proven to be wrong in any way towards you as a personal manner, as originally addressed.


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## Harry (Mar 9, 2017)

Theologian. said:


> So you spent time to come into this thread in order to slander me, without making a valid argument but twisting writings of a Holy book to your agenda of malice on me.
> 
> Guru Nanak was not addressing 'Theologian.'
> 
> ...



There is no slander here, theology is the study of religion in a pragmatic and logical fashion, something I am all for personally, Originalji feels that knowledge is given by the grace of god, not study, and his comments apply to theologians rather than yourself personally.


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## Theologian. (Mar 9, 2017)

jb qy swDU sMgiq pwey ] gur Bytq hau geI blwey ] (101-15)
jab tay saaDhoo sangat paa-ay. gur bhaytat ha-o ga-ee balaa-ay.
Since I found the Company of the Holy and met the Guru, the demon of pride has departed.
swis swis hir gwvY nwnku siqgur Fwik lIAw myrw pVdw jIau ]4]17]24] (101-15)
saas saas har gaavai naanak satgur dhaak lee-aa mayraa parh-daa jee-o. ||4||17||24||
With each and every breath, Nanak sings the Lord's Praises. The True Guru has covered my sins. ||4||17||24||

kIqw ijso hovY pwpW mlo DovY so ismrhu prDwnu hy ]2] (1008-2)
keetaa jiso hovai paapaaN malo Dhovai so simrahu parDhaan hay. ||2||
His actions alone come to pass; He washes off the filth of sins. Meditate in remembrance on that Supreme Lord. ||2||

jau pY hm n pwp krMqw Ahy Anµqw ] (93-16)
ja-o pai ham na paap karantaa ahay anantaa.
If I did not commit any sins, O Infinite Lord,
piqq pwvn nwmu kYsy huMqw ]1] rhwau ] (93-16)
patit paavan naam kaisay huntaa. ||1|| rahaa-o.
how would You have acquired the name, 'Redeemer of sinners'? ||1||Pause||

supRsMn Bey kysvw sy jn hir gux gwih ]4] (203-10)
suparsan bha-ay kaysvaa say jan har gun gaahi. ||4||
Those humble beings, with whom the beautifully-haired Lord is thoroughly pleased, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. ||4||




*EXIT*


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## sukhsingh (Mar 9, 2017)

swarn bains said:


> satnaam means in my dictionary  it is true there is God


Or 'Truth Is!'  ?


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## sukhsingh (Mar 9, 2017)

Theologian. said:


> I reckon I have lived more than most have in terms of possibilities in our lives, but its something more to be ashamed of.
> 
> As they say knowledge is power



Knowledge is power.. people 'feel empowered' and 'are empowered' by having knowledge. However the two are separate yet interlinked.

people 'feel empowered' - Ignorance reigns over us all, self righteousness absolutism blossoms, irrationality creeps through the door and prejudice thrives.
We are all ignorant especially when we think our knowledge is right above others for reasons without giving consideration. irrational, the belief that we have a exclusive insight to the truth, it is the most common act of self delusion.
becoming dogamtic/aboltist means you have arrived. its a pretty big assuption.


'are empowered' - the access to knowledge, the control of knowledge, the access to knowledge has been of tool of those in power has been tool since time immemorial. eclusive access to knowledge gives you a upper hand. in sikhi we are taught to be humble, remind yourself that you may have got it wrong. test it challenge, truth will out, feel brave to search.but moreover the truth is and knowledge should never be exclusive, access to education, and henceforth knowledge is human right, a universal right.

Acces to knowledge creates a level playing field and denying access to it is a exploitation of power.

In sikhi the propogation of gurmukhi  was a as much a rejection and challenge against the elitism, exclusivity of brahmanism. where only brahims were able to read the vedas. The existential universal  truths expressed by bani are those which all humans of which ever race creed, caste etc should have access to. If a individual has a exclusive insight and doesn't have the time to share it but rather just say i know it and thats enough is no better than the sadhu living in a cave gifted with knowledge, propably through access privileges who doesn't engage with the world.  Michel foucault has best described how structurally 'knowledge is power' is a double edged sword.

im not sure in your expression of the term is something to celebrate...


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## Sikhilove (Mar 10, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> Knowledge is power.. people 'feel empowered' and 'are empowered' by having knowledge. However the two are separate yet interlinked.
> 
> people 'feel empowered' - Ignorance reigns over us all, self righteousness absolutism blossoms, irrationality creeps through the door and prejudice thrives.
> We are all ignorant especially when we think our knowledge is right above others for reasons without giving consideration. irrational, the belief that we have a exclusive insight to the truth, it is the most common act of self delusion.
> ...



There's worldly knowledge and there's divine knowledge.

Divine knowledge is beyond worldly logic. This is a khel, a huge illusion.


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## Harry (Mar 10, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> Divine knowledge is beyond logic.



and some would say impossible for anyone to know, and therefore a moot point. 

Who would you say is an example of someone who has divine knowledge?


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## Sikhilove (Mar 10, 2017)

Harry said:


> and some would say impossible for anyone to know, and therefore a moot point.
> 
> Who would you say is an example of someone who has divine knowledge?



Guru Nanak......


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## sukhsingh (Mar 11, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> There's worldly knowledge and there's divine knowledge.
> 
> Divine knowledge is beyond worldly logic. This is a khel, a huge illusion.





Sikhilove said:


> Guru Nanak......


For you to be able to say that it would also require you to have divine knowledge


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## Pathfinder (Mar 12, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> Michel foucault has best described how structurally 'knowledge is power' is a double edged sword.



Like the reason for langar is to satiate the physical hunger in us and not make us obese and lazy. So should knowledge - no point in accumulating it unless it is actually helping us grow as a Sikh. A ship only needs a basic amount of reserve buoyancy to stay afloat. Doubling the number of lifeboats makes no sense on a merchant ship and will not help. Improving the present lifeboats could be a big game changer though. Likewise unless knowledge changes one for the better - it is a liability.

Divine knowledge is knowledge that anchors us on the path of the Guru. Any bit of knowledge that transforms a manmukh into a Gursikh is divine.

Like a lot of sangat does here - Knowledge has to be implemented and distributed - like langar is to be shared. If not - the extra or unused langar rots - too much knowledge rots us, is harmful in a very real sense - we mortals or manmukhs cannot handle more than just a little knowledge.

The ones that can - are blessed and most importantly - Gursikhs.

Think of this forum as langar for the soul where we are all sevadars. We all serve in this seva in our own little ways. Collectively as long as we can feed everyone seated here and satiate the hunger of the ones who are here - we have truly served.

Knowledge is like a Gurudwara, A small one will suffice for the hungry as long as they can get food for the body and soul. A big Gurudwara is ideal, but never a nessesity.

- reflections of a tired seadog, lol.


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## chazSingh (Mar 13, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> For you to be able to say that it would also require you to have divine knowledge



Good Point Sukh singh

*And that there is the whole point of Sikhi...*

to "mingle" with the Divine, whilst alive , here and now as a human being...


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## Sikhilove (Mar 14, 2017)

Nice post Pathfinder 

Sharing and teaching is divine as the Gurus proved in action.

Once the teachings are shared, it's up to the recipient as to whether they will respect the Gyan and apply it 100% or let it pass by, a priceless gem unappreciated. 

The Gyan taught needs to be on point though.


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## Original (Mar 16, 2017)

Theologian. said:


> So you spent time to come into this thread in order to slander me, without making a valid argument but twisting writings of a Holy book to your agenda of malice on me.
> 
> Guru Nanak was not addressing 'Theologian.'
> 
> ...


Sir

Forgive me for touching the sensitive you, but I meant no harm or injury. Honestly speaking, what would you call a pandit, qazi and a yogi if not "theologians" ?

Regards


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## Original (Mar 16, 2017)

Harry said:


> Who would you say is an example of someone who has divine knowledge?


H - A good question deserves a good answer and given I've just landed back in UK from celebrating Hola Mahalla at Anandpur Sahib, you're in for a treat !

Philosopher Plotinus thought pretty much like how Sikhilove thinks [language allowing] in that, there is something of the divine mystery in everything that exists. He went on to explain that we can see it sparkle in a sunflower or a poppy. We sense more of this unfathomable mystery in a butterfly that flutters from a rose to a merrygold or in a goldfish swimming in a bowl. But wait says he, are we not closer to God in our own very soul and is that soul not part n parcel of that divine being? Of course we are, says he and affirms in truth, that we ourselves are that divine mystery.

On page 644 of SGGSJ, Guru Amardas Ji confirms the same, thus, "*ghar he main amrit bharphoor ha manmukha swad [edited] na payia". *Translated would mean something like this*: OMG, *human that is slave to the mind know not the divinity within.

Goodnight


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## sukhsingh (Mar 16, 2017)

Original said:


> H - A good question deserves a good answer and given I've just landed back in UK from celebrating Hola Mahalla at Anandpur Sahib, you're in for a treat !
> 
> Philosopher Plotinus thought pretty much like how Sikhilove thinks [language allowing] in that, there is something of the divine mystery in everything that exists. He went on to explain that we can see it sparkle in a sunflower or a poppy. We sense more of this unfathomable mystery in a butterfly that flutters from a rose to a merrygold or in a goldfish swimming in a bowl. But wait says he, are we not closer to God in our own very soul and is that soul not part n parcel of that divine being? Of course we are, says he and affirms in truth, that we ourselves are that divine mystery.
> 
> ...


Paji please may i make a humble request? I really like reading your posts but I often find them indecipherable.. I'm not sure how that post addresses the question you called out. . I genuinely would like to understand

Sukh


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## Original (Mar 16, 2017)

Hi Sukh - thank you !

I think the operative word between the exchanges of Sir Harry n Sikhilove G is the word, "*divine*" ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but otherwise accepting as it were, would mean what I said above in post #125. If that'd be correct [i.e. post #125] then flowing from it is the proposition that *all *creation* is divine, *consistent with Sikh Ideology and spot-on with what Guru Amardas Ji says on page 644 SGGSJ. However, when probed by H, Sikhilove conferred divinity upon Baba Nanak alone, whereas, Plotinus on the whole of creation, metaphorically.

Hope that helps !


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## sukhsingh (Mar 16, 2017)

Original said:


> Hi Sukh - thank you !
> 
> I think the operative word between the exchanges of Sir Harry n Sikhilove G is the word, "*divine*" ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but otherwise accepting as it were, would mean what I said above in post #125. If that'd be correct [i.e. post #125] then flowing from it is the proposition that *all *creation* is divine, *consistent with Sikh Ideology and spot-on with what Guru Amardas Ji says on page 644 SGGSJ. However, when probed by H, Sikhilove conferred divinity upon Baba Nanak alone, whereas, Plotinus on the whole of creation, metaphorically.
> 
> Hope that helps !


So two things. . 
1. 'All is divine'  if we state "all creation is divine " it may suggests there are things outside creation 
2. I'm not sure Sikhilove conferry divinity on Guru Nanak Dev Ji.  She said he had divine knowledge, which in itself suggests he knew everything .. I personally disagree with that. . But not so controversial. .

I'm not sure how Plotinus fits into the picture. ? Why are his contemplations relevant. ?


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## Original (Mar 16, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> So two things. . All is divine


...from an objective perspective, all is divine and just as darkness is the absence of light so is ignorance the absence of knowledge. Similarly, are the non divine ignorant of the divine within.

Goodnight n Godbless


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## sukhsingh (Mar 16, 2017)

Original said:


> ...from an objective perspective, all is divine and just as darkness is the absence of light so is ignorance the absence of knowledge. Similarly, are the non divine ignorant of the divine within.
> 
> Goodnight n Godbless


Interesting. . So for me to answer i need you to just clarify who the "non divine" ar


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## sukhsingh (Mar 16, 2017)

Original said:


> ...from an objective perspective, all is divine



And therefore from a subjective perspective all is not divine? 

Sweet dreams. . Hope you find that illuminating. !


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## Original (Mar 16, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> And therefore from a subjective perspective all is not divine?
> 
> Sweet dreams. . Hope you find that illuminating. !


lol - very illuminating Sukh Singh, thank you !

The frog that lives in the well [subjective] know not of the ocean [objective] outside. Similarly, are the non-divine ignorant of the divine within. Read p644 SGGSJ to get the drift.


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## sukhsingh (Mar 16, 2017)

Original said:


> lol - very illuminating Sukh Singh, thank you !
> 
> The frog that lives in the well [subjective] know not of the ocean [objective] outside. Similarly, are the non-divine ignorant of the divine within. Read p644 SGGSJ to get the drift.


All rivers lead to the same ocean. .


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## sukhsingh (Mar 16, 2017)

Original said:


> lol - very illuminating Sukh Singh, thank you !
> 
> The frog that lives in the well [subjective] know not of the ocean [objective] outside. Similarly, are the non-divine ignorant of the divine within. Read p644 SGGSJ to get the drift.


I'm sorry but your abstract quotes make no sense. . How can something be non - divine ignorant. . I don't even necessarily believe that people are ignorant of the divine


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## Original (Mar 16, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> All rivers lead to the same ocean. .


Sukh if you can't tell the difference between a *river* and a *well* I'm gonna have to refer you to specsavers for visual retinotopy and primary school for a refreshers course in English language. Consider it a favour on account fellow SPN member without obligation.


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## sukhsingh (Mar 16, 2017)

Original said:


> Sukh if you can't tell the difference between a *river* and a *well* I'm gonna have to refer you to specsavers for visual retinotopy and primary school for a refreshers course in English language. Consider it a favour on account fellow SPN member without obligation.



I thank you for your generosity, I very much believe anything to help me 'see' better and that which schools me is Gurprasad. 

Is the  water in the well in which the frog dwells a different water from the river that flows beside it? . Is the  air I breathe in my prison not the same rarefied air you breathe up in inthe bastions of your Castle?


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## sukhsingh (Mar 16, 2017)

Original said:


> Sukh if you can't tell the difference between a *river* and a *well* I'm gonna have to refer you to specsavers for visual retinotopy and primary school for a refreshers course in English language. Consider it a favour on account fellow SPN member without obligation.


So now after that little quip can you please qualify and answer the question posed.  Or another slippery (fish?) Deflection. . 

I've always thought that before I spit i should try swallowing. .
 


Original said:


> non-divine ignorant


Please elaborate


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## Original (Mar 17, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> So now after that little quip can you please qualify and answer the question posed.  Or another slippery (fish?) Deflection. .
> 
> I've always thought that before I spit i should try swallowing. .
> Please elaborate


Sukh you're feeling dandy, I'm not and as much as would love to I won't dialogue right now - sorry ! The argumentative ape [AA] in me is currently on vacation, can I fix your appetite when AA returns.

In the mean time try living the Sikh Way and let go the gora education - you'll begin to see the Singh King you truly is - love you.

Thank you & good day !


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## sukhsingh (Mar 17, 2017)

Original said:


> Sukh you're feeling dandy, I'm not and as much as would love to I won't dialogue right now - sorry ! The argumentative ape [AA] in me is currently on vacation, can I fix your appetite when AA returns.
> 
> In the mean time try living the Sikh Way and let go the gora education - you'll begin to see the Singh King you truly is - love you.
> 
> Thank you & good day !


I am literally astounded by this.. 

I don't even know what 'gora education'  means.. Please enlighten me with a definition.. I won't hold my breath though, 

Am I the only one who sees the irony in the post.. 

I look forward to you getting that monkey off your back 
Love you too bro


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## Harry (Mar 18, 2017)

Whilst we continue to use such expressions as Gora educations, Gora thinking, Coconut, etc, I fail to see how Sikhism can ever be universal.

Originalji, is your thinking Sikh or Punjabi or just plain brown?


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## Sikhilove (Mar 21, 2017)

Original said:


> Hi Sukh - thank you !
> 
> I think the operative word between the exchanges of Sir Harry n Sikhilove G is the word, "*divine*" ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but otherwise accepting as it were, would mean what I said above in post #125. If that'd be correct [i.e. post #125] then flowing from it is the proposition that *all *creation* is divine, *consistent with Sikh Ideology and spot-on with what Guru Amardas Ji says on page 644 SGGSJ. However, when probed by H, Sikhilove conferred divinity upon Baba Nanak alone, whereas, Plotinus on the whole of creation, metaphorically.
> 
> Hope that helps !



He asked for an example so I gave one. If i said myself he probably would have gone off on one

But original your post earlier was spot on. All in One and One in All.

Guru Nanak Ji taught us that the illusion is our belief of seperatedness. Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the teacher of self discovery- we are All more than capable. Surrendering the ego is key- a simple decision yet we try to make it so complicated.

We argue, and spend hours on end debating, fill up our time with drama and more complication simply to avoid the Truth.

Humans love to procrastinate.


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## Harry (Mar 21, 2017)

Sikhilove said:


> He asked for an example so I gave one. If i said myself he probably would have gone off on one
> 
> But original your post earlier was spot on. All in One and One in All.
> 
> ...



Actually, the point in question is not divinity, if you look back at your post, it is divine knowledge, we may all have the divine in us, but not all of us, indeed, possibly not any of us have divine knowledge, I do not believe I have ever 'gone off on one', I am here solely to enforce TOS, if that enforcement is incorrect, I am happy to be corrected. 

so, I will repeat the question so you may answer without fear, do you know of anyone who has divine knowledge?

if you believe you do, then please say so, none of us have time for game playing.


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## Original (Mar 21, 2017)

Harry said:


> Actually, the point in question is not divinity, if you look back at your post, it is divine knowledge, we may all have the divine in us, but not all of us, indeed, possibly not any of us have divine knowledge, I do not believe I have ever 'gone off on one', I am here solely to enforce TOS, if that enforcement is incorrect, I am happy to be corrected.
> 
> so, I will repeat the question so you may answer without fear, do you know of anyone who has divine knowledge?
> 
> if you believe you do, then please say so, none of us have time for game playing.


Dearest H - good morning [0356, Australia]

Of all the riders n runners @ SPN, you I consider to be the perfect master of divine knowledge. Cast back if you will of your relationship with your dear wife, was it not divine ? I deem it so for I could see the beautiful she in the handsome you when you showed me the couple you at a joint in London. Similarly, is the case when one finds God. The relationship is divine, beyond measure and description of any kind. Only the experiencer "knows" of the divine moments occasioned.

Divine knowledge is sacred, privy to the deserving few. Consider yourself fortunate therefore because now in separation will you meet your true "love".

Love n Live


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## Harry (Mar 21, 2017)

Original said:


> Dearest H - good morning [0356, Australia]
> 
> Of all the riders n runners @ SPN, you I consider to be the perfect master of divine knowledge. Cast back if you will of your relationship with your dear wife, was it not divine ? I deem it so for I could see the beautiful she in the handsome you when you showed me the couple you at a joint in London. Similarly, is the case when one finds God. The relationship is divine, beyond measure and description of any kind. Only the experiencer "knows" of the divine moments occasioned.
> 
> ...



I have much to say on the topic, but my role is moderating, rather than engaging on a personal level, I will give some thought to this and reply in general terms with an accent on the topic in hand,. 

thank you for the memory, it brought a smile to my face

love n live


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (Mar 23, 2017)

Theologian. said:


> This universe is created and scientists who hate to say it, admit it because it means science is not the top governing authority of our world. Rather than say God, they say evolution as it stirs them from admitting defeat to their believes of Science proving 'Everything'. Evolution has been proven to be false and hence has theory at the end of its title.
> 
> The first Law of thermodynamics tells us that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed.
> If matter and energy cannot create itself, and at some point in history the universe had a
> ...



God is self created. Universe is created. Time is a creation only known when the man could understand what time is. It did not exist before the exist; nor it existed before the first man or his later version understood it. All time calculations backwards or forwards are all the creations of the mind. Cause and effect is the fundamental to the total existence. Nothing exists or effected without a cause. What is the cause is best known to the creator. Causes are a continuous serious of creation for which effects too are continuous. A continuous chain exists between cause and effect and there is nothing in the universe which is not linked; linking however may be close or long. The fundamental link is the source of energy; the links thereafter is the entire energy which is linked totally. Energy is stated to be concentrated before it was caused to be spread to effect the universe. Some scientists say it is big bang; Guru Nanak said," it was sahj; natural and discards the theory of big bang. Scientists have related big bang to time calculated backwards; it can be scientifically conclusively proved though. Hence it can only be stated as a guess work; not a scientific truth. It is not a fundamental truth either hence. What I could understand from Gurbani is that the creation and destruction system is continuous which is naturally happening as per the theory of continuous cause and effect. it is also be relevant to realize that everything in this universe is in regular contact; every atom or the energy with every other atom of  the universe however remote it is. Regular contact is regularly  impacting every part of the world. Closeness of the parts affects more than the remoteness however. This explains the theory that even the thoughts became the causes to created effects, since these are the energies created by the mind. since the thoughts are continuously generated they are the continuous sources of causes and effects globally; most of these causes are relative; born of previous events and linked to the future due to the thought process. Hence the past present and future are linked. Creation and destruction are also the causes and effects; originating from the energy; It may originally from the fundamental source of energy but later developed through the thought process of the creation. Everything happening continuously, systematically and naturally. It is the Hukum or the order or the system set for creation and destruction.


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (Mar 23, 2017)

Theologian. said:


> IF 'evil is God' then:
> 
> *God is wicked
> *God is wrong
> ...


Good or bad are only thinking created by the mind. one thing which is bad from some one may be good for the other. Since the development of universe is in the wave form; with ups and downs; these so called good and bad are continuously happen to develop the world.


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## sukhsingh (Mar 23, 2017)

Original said:


> Divine knowledge is sacred, privy to the deserving few. Consider yourself fortunate therefore because now in separation will you meet your true "love"


Really do you believe that divine knowledge is exclusive.. Isn't this the antithesis of guru nanak ji teaching.. That we all have access to truth and that despite what people say divine knowledge is within us.. Does your view not promote the ideals of Brahmanism? Really Bro you should be more discerning


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## Sikhilove (Mar 29, 2017)

sukhsingh said:


> Really do you believe that divine knowledge is exclusive.. Isn't this the antithesis of guru nanak ji teaching.. That we all have access to truth and that despite what people say divine knowledge is within us.. Does your view not promote the ideals of Brahmanism? Really Bro you should be more discerning



The answers and the Guru/ the Gyan is within us.

Even great sinners have moments of glory of Puran sat. It comes from within- He is within. But Gurbani/ Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a blessing that makes it super easy.


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## Tasveer Singh (Jul 21, 2017)

god is the realisation of truth.
The possible (creation to exist on its own is impossible)
so now the impossible (a creator or god) now becomes possible.

from this the attributes of god come in to play. why did he create us? he must be compassionate. mercyful. kind.ect

that means we are all one and the same right? our light is his light. (hence being a vegetarian)

how do we merge with him again? the saints say by meditating on the one word of the shabad (sound). the sound of god that is the word of god. the word of god is the name of god which manifests in all. guru nanak says on mount somer with the siddhas that the sound is not aum but onkar. the ik represents he is one. 
so much more to say. but much more to do. meditate my friends and you shall see the beloved lord. 
by the grace of the guru (god) he is attained.


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## Ishna (Jul 21, 2017)

Is there a possibility it (shabad, Naam) is not literal sound, but more like the Romans would say, Logos? Which in English was translated as "Word" of God, but means something more like "reality unfolding according to divine reason"?


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## Tasveer Singh (Jul 22, 2017)

The vedas is older then the romans.
so are mantras chakra spirituality ect. the romans are an of shoot of the greeks and in turn their gods are of the vedas. example zeus is indra and in japan amarteratsu. there is a quote from guru nanak that says. the "one word" of the shabad abides within my mind. i shall not come to be born again.
to me and my own understanding. shabd means sounds that help one to channel connect and realise the divine. the question is what is the correct mantra. lots of sikhs say vaheguru. from what i under stand guru nanak and kabir used onkar according to their peoms. and some of the gurus such as guru arjan call nanak sat guru. nanak calls god sat guru. they regard guru nanak as their great teacher who was propagated as guru by the congregation of sant mat. aka kabir. ravi das. sain. meera bhai. kabir was one of the main bhagats who put forward nanak as their guru.

anyway to find god a sound must be used. almost like playing a musical instrument. the right note must be played to connect.


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