# Deception And Fraud



## bulleshah (May 11, 2006)

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif]Sorry to say this but we all appear to be a victim of a fraud perpetrated by our own people. People who since the day they were beaten by the British badly have been in awe of them. And since then have been making all effort to make Sikhi sound and appear and 'not-much' different from the 'gora-Gods' preachings. 

This foundation of deception was built by the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabhia progeny, such as the Shromani Gurdwara Parbandak Committee (S.G.P.C.), another creation of the British by nurturing on narrow-minded puritanical Victorian ideals established by the British Raj. The Tat Khalsa Singh Sabhia movement emerged from the womb of the filthy foreigner in 1879, it began to radically alter Sikhism as it existed so as ensure it conformed to their new British Raj-accommodating perception. In fact, one of the leading figures of this movement was an Irishman, Max Arthur Macauliffe. He is regarded today by many modern Sikhs as being a great scholar and historian. 

*In 1882, Macauliffe achieved the position of Deputy Commissioner in Punjab. With the help of Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, Macauliffe wrote the popular Tat Khalsa Singh Sabhia-sanctioned text that outlined Sikh history according to the views of the Tat Khalsa scholars of the time. In it, he states the reasons for writing his extensive work on the Sikhs: 

"It is admitted that a knowledge of the religions of the people of India is a desideratum for the British officials who administer its affairs and indirectly for the people who are governed by them so that mutual sympathy may be produced. It seems, at any rate politic to place before the Sikh soldiery their Guru’s prophecies in favor of the English and the texts of their sacred writings which foster their loyalty." --- The Sikh Religion’,1909, M.A. Macauliffe, Preface xxii 
*
What we all say and believe today is the logical conclusion of that fraud played by the British on us... 

The Sikh community leaders have commited not some but many mistakes a few of which are as follows : 

*1) *In order to bolster their separateness from Hinduism, Sikh separatists have magnified the Islamic element in Sikhism. An element of this tendency is the replacement of Sanskrit-based terms with Persian terms, e.g. the Hari Mandir, "Vishnu temple", in Amritsar is preferably called Darbar Sahib by the Akalis, "venerable court session (of the Timeless one)". 

*2) *The Akali's propogated the by now widespread story that the foundation stone of the Hari Mandir was laid by the Sufi pir Mian Mir. Repetition of this myth prompted many people including from the Sikh community to carry out a detailed survey of the oldest and modernest sources pertaining to the construction of the Hari Mandir. Found no trace of Mian Mir. But the Hardliners of the Singh-Sabha variety continue to prop up a blatant forgery simply because it has become popular and is being patronised by those who control the neo-Sikh establishment.(Canadian Visa anyone????) 

*3) *Sikh self-historiographers have filled the Sikh history with concoctions, starting with insertions and changes in 19th-century editions of older texts, all of it in unsubtle appropriation of the latest ideological fashions of Anglo-secularists. (Rajendra Singh, a Sikh anti-separatist author claims that even (not to say especially) the key moments of Sikh history are often concoctions. Thus, the founding of the martial Khalsa order by Guru Govind Singh in 1699, with the beard as part of its dress code, is put in doubt by a post-1699 painting of a clean-shaven Govind Singh. He also points out that many stories about the lives of the Gurus are obvious calks on Puranic or Islamic stories.) 

*4) *The Sikh leaders fell for the British who were disappointed with the conclusions of the first scholar who investigated and translated Sikh Scriptures, the German Indologist and missionary Dr. E. Trumpp, who had found Guru Nanak a 'thorough Hindu' and his religion 'a Pantheism derived directly from Hindu sources'. (This was not long after the 1857 Mutiny, when the Sikhs had fought on the British side, and the British were systematically turning the Sikhs into one of the privileged enclaves in native society with whose help they wanted to make governing India easier for themselves.) 

*5) *Other Sikh community scholars started to rewrite Sikh history in the sense desired by the British. Max Arthur Macauliffe, a highly placed British administrator told the Sikhs that Hinduism was like a ‘boa constrictor of the Indian forest’ which ‘winds its opponent and finally causes it to disappear in its capacious interior’. The Sikhs ‘may go that way’, he warned. He was pained to see that the Sikhs regarded themselves as Hindus which was ‘in direct opposition to the teachings of the Gurus’. The influence of scholarship is silent, subtle and long-range. Macauliffe and others provided categories which became the thought-equipment of subsequent Sikh intellectuals. 

*6) *The Akalis in 1909, over 200 years after the Tenth Guru's passing replaced the Dasam Granth with just the one, under the influence of the british oppressors such as maccauliffe, who were trying to Christianise Sikhism. 

*7) *The Akalis in 1909, over 200 years after the Tenth Guru's passing, passed the 'Anand marriage act' under the say so of Wilheim Leitner, (Austro Hungarian) British administrator, who supposedly spoke twenty five languages. And this despite the fact that The Gurus themselves all had Hindu Pandits conduct their weddings, entirely within Hindu tradition. 

*8) *During the late 19th century and early 20th century, scholars such as Bhai Vir Singh came across numerous practices within Sikhism such as ‘Chandi’ worship, use of intoxicants (such as alcohol, cannabis, opium), ‘Chatka’, polygamy, and references to topics such as adultery, homosexuality, lesbianism, ‘napumsak’ (the third gender), etc. Considering such issues as being products of either ‘Hindu’ influence, ‘impure’ thoughts, or ‘manmat’ (practices that go against the teachings of the Sikh Gurus), the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabhia-sponsored scholars began to dismiss, or expunge, or destroy, or alter any text/manuscript that mentioned such subjects. 

*9) *In the early 20th century, the surreptitious Bhai Vir Singh decided to publish Rattan Singh Bhangu’s ‘Pracheen Panth Prakash’. He systematically expunged this great text and altered some portions of the original text, but still deviously presented it as an ‘edited’ version. He sought to remove all mention of ‘Chandi Pooja’ and alcohol and from it for such practices, were deemed as being too ‘Hindu’ for the insecure Tat Khalsa Singhs. 

*The former S.G.P.C.-elected Jathedar of the Akal Takht, Giani Kirpal Singh and editor of ‘Naveen Panth Prakash’ commented on the advice given him by some modern Sikhs: 

**"When I was just transliterating the invocatory verses, then many Sikh gentlemen advised me to: 
‘Erase those portions of it, which were against Guru’s thinking and Sikh history and in their place insert your own new verses. Like how, from Rattan Singh Bhangu’s work, ‘Panth Prakash’, Bhai Vir Singh removed some portions. In some places [Bhai Vir Singh] changed the wording such as that with regards to the invocation of ‘Chandi’ (NB. Chandi Pooja was carried out by Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh before the before creation of the Khalsa), etc., and, replacing the word ‘Sura’ (alcohol) with ‘Suda’ (Ambrosia/Khalsa initiation)’ 
I did not agree with those gentlemen’s above-said thinking, and I said that to cut out some writers original text and insert in new text of your own is a great injustice with the author and in the literary world is considered a great sin. Yes, regards the text the editor in foot notes can give his own views." --- ‘Siri Guru Panth Prakash’, editor Giani Kirpal Singh, 1970, Vol.1, Pa.3 
*
*10) *In 1899, Kahn Singh published ‘Gurmat Sudhakar’, an anthology of Sikh historical and scriptural texts that became the first Tat Khalsa Singh Sabhia authorized‘Rehit Nama’ (code of conduct). Hew Mcleod, a prominent western scholar of Sikhism speaking of Bhai Kahn’s publication writes: 

_"In 1901 Kahn Singh Nabha moved a step closer to an authorised rahit-nama when he published Gurmat Sudhakar, a compendium of works relating to the person and period of Guru Gobind Singh. This included a selection from the existing rahitnamas, and in editing the materials available to him Kahn Singh implicitly expressed a particular interpretation of them. Although his selections were presented as abridged versions of extant rahits-namas, they are more accurately described as expurgated versions. In other words, Kahn Singh had cut items that he believed ought not be there. What this implied was that the pure Rahit enunciated by the tenth Guru had subsequently been corrupted by ignorant or malicious transmitters of the tradition. By eliminating all that conflicted with reason and sound tradition (as understood by such men as Kahn Singh) one might hope to restore the pristine Rahit, the uncorrupted original Rahit as the Guru had delivered it." _--- ‘Sikhism’, by Hew Mcleod, 1997, P.122 

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The Tat Khalsa Singh Sabias scholars such as Bhai Vir Singh, Kahn Singh Nabha, etc., like their masters before them, the imperialist British Raj, believed in all sincerity that is was righteous to be economical with the truth when required, manipulate it, or dismiss it entirely. 

Another classical example of such contortions of historical truths is exemplified by Bhai Randhir Singh, the protégé of Teja Singh Bhasauria, who founded the ‘Bhai Randhir Singh da Jatha’ (later known as the Akhand Kirtani Jatha, A.K.J.). Bhai Randhir Singh’s views with regards to ‘Chatka’, and many other issues were based on the premonition that their interpretation is the truest above all others. The promotion of such fraud and deception is a trademark of Tat Khalsa Singh Sabhia-authorised scholars and historians. 

A more recent series of events involves the Sikh historical text ‘Gurblias Patshahi Shemi’. The latest version of this text, is the 1998 reprint edited by the present S.G.P.C.-elected Jathedar of the Akal Takht, Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti. A Canadian-based Sikh named Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana published a series of 10 books named ‘Bipran Ki Reet Sach Da Marg’ in which he accused Vedanti of tampering with the historical work. He also made may other blasphamous statements which lead Kala Afghana being declared a ‘Tankhaiya’ (apostate) by the S.G.P.C. Interestingly, this text was immediately declared as being ‘banned’ by Vedanti and was withdrawn from all bookshelves in Punjab. According to news reports, Kala Afghana wrote a letter to Vedanti calling him a ‘liar’ and a ‘maha pappi’ (great sinner), which lead Vedanti to state that this act was unpardonable. 

Even today, as Giani Kirpal Singh found out, there are many Sikhs who prescribe to the thinking of expunging and rewriting ancient Sikh texts. Some even believe in writing their own version of events from scratch. One such Sikh, is the A.K.J.-approved author, J.P. Sangat Singh who writes: 

*"There is no doubt in this, that we at present have no ancient history, but, due to the foresight of Siri Guru Arjan Dev Patshah, we do have the pure scripture (Siri Guru Granth Sahib) available in original form, under the guidance of who’s light, if we today tried, we can write our ancient history." --- ‘Sikh Dharm Teh Mas Sharab’, by J.P. Sangat Singh, 1977, P190 
*
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I can go on and on but that should be enough... 

*Thanks. *[/FONT]


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## vijaydeep Singh (May 12, 2006)

Gurfateh

Das could not understand that why do our Gurus work is attributed to Britishers in past and Pakistanis in present.

There has to be some weakness in hindus that even Ramakrishan missioan puts clamin that they too are not Hindus and so do Arya Samajis.

Better is to overomce the weakness within self then to blame other so that let others want to be a part of you then other want to make distance from you.

Better reform hindus as thier intrusive caste system was makeing Sikhs become Araya Samajis or Chrasitians that mainstream became anti Sanatan Singhs and we as Sanatan Singhs were sidelined,Or before there was not issue of Sikhs or Hindu.


At present also all the hoax generating Hindutva and hinduism base falseghood mahcianory is also trying to prove Sikhs as Hindu or Indian entity,And concept of Indaijn nationlism is also westerm based like germanci or Britsh.This is against Holy Vedas,.which behold whole universe as one Nest or Family.These guys due to decetions to holy Vedas will see punishemnt by Akal,the source of vedas as thier(hinduism) elimination.

People trying to paint Gurmat with punjabism or jatism will also desappear.Insha Allah.


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## bulleshah (May 12, 2006)

*vijaydeepsingh,*

You a sanatani ?? I myself am a sanatani Sikh and allow me to inform you that the greatest
of the Hindu reformers, Raja Ram Mohan Roy, was one of the the founders of Arya Samaj
which is also known as Prarthana Samaj which you call as non-Hindu. If you don't want to
be a Hindu nobody can force you to be one. There are many Hindu's - the commies for one -
who don't want to be Hindu. But it's good to know you are a sanatan. Sanatan-Dharma is
the real name of what is known in hybrid terms as Hindu-Dharma.

The biggest critics, many of whose criticism borders on agnosticism/atheism, have been
and are Hindu's. I have yet to find a single Sikh critic of Sikhism. The way it is interpreted
by the SGPC clowns.

*Thanks.*


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## vijaydeep Singh (May 12, 2006)

Gurfateh


> bulleshah said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

This is your fault.


visit sarbloh.info

or Sikhmarg.com


join either of them and you can do good for Hindu race or Hindu nation.

sgpc has turbanned Hindu in it and not the Sikhs.

When Respected Sudershan Ji were working with Sant Samaj,to let them and Hindus should cooprate,Badal of sgpc made Advani to not let Respected Sudershan Ji do the appropriate work.


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## bulleshah (May 13, 2006)

*vijadeepsingh,*

What do you mean by join this or join that and save yourself. Just because I am
a sanatan doesn't mean I am going to follow it blindly. Raja Ram Mohan Roy said
manythings. But who told you that he was the ultimate ?? And who told you that
Guru Nanak was the ultimate ??


I am better off being an agnostic. I am not saying I don't believe in a God. I am
open to the idea. Only I don't give two hoot's about trying to appease her/him...

That Sikhism you are so proud of today exactly is the way Hinduism was 500 years ago.

Grow you hair and beard else you are ‘patit’ or ‘adharmi’. It’s a case of another God
turning against itself. An edifice created by the Human mind, decimated by Human nature.


Sikhism was born in an age when Hinduism had absorbed corrupting influences and was
rendered as just a doctrine in rituals and outward appearances. Nanaks struggle was
against that. The Hindus no longer wear a ‘janneyu’ or shave their heads but nobody
calls them ‘adharmy’. But the moment a Sikh shaves his beard he is branded as adharmy
by the ignorant Granthi’s.


*“Mund mundae jo sidhhi paee, mukti ped na gaiiya jaee.”*


To grow ones hair in order to attain ‘siddhi’ is as illogical and unreasonable as shaving
ones head to attain ‘siddhi’ is.


But the Neo-Sikh clowns continue to say they are different from Hindu's but we know
they say so not not because they are really different but because they want to be.


*Thanks.*


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## drkhalsa (May 13, 2006)

> That Sikhism you are so proud of today exactly is the way Hinduism was 500 years ago.


 

Dear Friend 


Here I am giving the beautiful account of the conditions 500 years ago 
And it does not seems to be proud in any sense to me infact it was even more degraded than the present day condition atleast now hindo can freely go Mandir and practice their religion but may be to somebody as you know everybody has their own opinion 

That Sikhism you are so proud of today exactly is the way Hinduism was 500 years ago.

*This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 360 *
Awsw mhlw 1 ]
*aa*s*aa* mehal*aa* 1 ||
_Aasaa, First Mehla:_
​Kurwswn Ksmwnw kIAw ihMdusqwnu frwieAw ]
kh*u*r*aa*s*aa*n khasam*aa*n*aa* k*eeaa* h*i*(n)dh*u*sath*aa*n ddar*aa*e*iaa* ||
_Having attacked Khuraasaan, Baabar terrified Hindustan._
​AwpY dosu n dyeI krqw jmu kir muglu cVwieAw ]
*aa*p*ai* dh*o*s n dh*aeee* karath*aa* jam kar m*u*gal charr*aa*e*iaa* ||
_The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death._
​eyqI mwr peI krlwxy qYN kI drdu n AwieAw ]1]
e*ae*th*ee* m*aa*r p*ee* karal*aa*n*ae* th*ai*(n) k*ee* dharadh n *aa*e*iaa* ||1||
_There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord? ||1||_
​krqw qUM sBnw kw soeI ]
karath*aa* th*oo*(n) sabhan*aa* k*aa* s*oee* ||
_O Creator Lord, You are the Master of all._
​jy skqw skqy kau mwry qw min rosu n hoeI ]1] rhwau ]
j*ae* sakath*aa* sakath*ae* ko m*aa*r*ae* th*aa* man r*o*s n h*oee* ||1|| reh*aa*o ||
_If some powerful man strikes out against another man, then no one feels any grief in their mind. ||1||Pause||_
​skqw sIhu mwry pY vgY KsmY sw pursweI ]
sakath*aa* s*ee*h*u* m*aa*r*ae* p*ai* vag*ai* khasam*ai* s*aa* p*u*ras*aaee* ||
_But if a powerful tiger attacks a flock of sheep and kills them, then its master must answer for it._
​rqn ivgwiV ivgoey kuqNØI muieAw swr n kweI ]
rathan v*i*g*aa*rr v*i*g*o*e*ae* k*u*tha(n)a*ee* m*u*e*iaa* s*aa*r n k*aaee* ||
_This priceless country has been laid waste and defiled by dogs, and no one pays any attention to the dead._
​Awpy joiV ivCoVy Awpy vyKu qyrI vifAweI ]2]
*aa*p*ae* j*o*rr v*i*shh*o*rr*ae* *aa*p*ae* v*ae*kh th*ae*r*ee* vadd*iaaee* ||2||
_You Yourself unite, and You Yourself separate; I gaze upon Your Glorious Greatness. ||2||_
​jy ko nwau Drwey vfw swd kry min Bwxy ]
j*ae* k*o* n*aa*o dhhar*aa*e*ae* vadd*aa* s*aa*dh kar*ae* man bh*aa*n*ae* ||
_One may give himself a great name, and revel in the pleasures of the mind,_
​KsmY ndrI kIVw AwvY jyqy cugY dwxy ]
khasam*ai* nadhar*ee* k*ee*rr*aa* *aa*v*ai* j*ae*th*ae* ch*u*g*ai* dh*aa*n*ae* ||
_but in the Eyes of the Lord and Master, he is just a worm, for all the grains that he eats._
​mir mir jIvY qw ikCu pwey nwnk nwmu vKwxy ]3]5]39]
mar mar j*ee*v*ai* th*aa* k*i*shh p*aa*e*ae* n*aa*nak n*aa*m vakh*aa*n*ae* ||3||5||39||
_Only one who lives without ego, obtains the blessings, O Nanak, by chanting the Lord's Name. ||3||5||39||_
​

rwgu Awsw mhlw 1 AstpdIAw Gru 3
r*aa*g *aa*s*aa* mehal*aa* 1 asattapadh*ee**aa* ghar 3
_Raag Aasaa, First Mehla, Ashtapadees, Third House:_

<> siqgur pRswid ]
ik oa(n)kaar sath*i*g*u*r pras*aa*dh ||
_One Continuous God, Eternal, True, Divine Enlightener, Merciful, Guru's Grace._

ijn isir sohin ptIAw mWgI pwie sMDUru ]
j*i*n s*i*r s*o*han patt*ee**aa* m*aa(n)*g*ee* p*aa*e sa(n)dhh*oo*r ||
_Those heads adorned with braided hair, with their parts painted with vermillion_

sy isr kwqI muMnIAin@ gl ivic AwvY DUiV ]
s*ae* s*i*r k*aa*th*ee* m*u*(n)n*ee*an*i*h gal v*i*ch *aa*v*ai* dhh*oo*rr ||
_those heads were shaved with scissors, and their throats were choked with dust._

mhlw AMdir hodIAw huix bhix n imlin@ hdUir ]1]
mehal*aa* a(n)dhar h*o*dh*ee**aa* h*u*n behan n m*i*lan*i*h hadh*oo*r ||1||
_They lived in palatial mansions, but now, they cannot even sit near the palaces. ||1||_

Awdysu bwbw Awdysu ]
*aa*dh*ae*s b*aa*b*aa* *aa*dh*ae*s ||
_Hail to You, O Father Lord, Hail to You!_

Awid purK qyrw AMqu n pwieAw kir kir dyKih vys ]1] rhwau ]
*aa*dh p*u*rakh th*ae*r*aa* a(n)th n p*aa*e*i**aa* kar kar dh*ae*kheh*i* v*ae*s ||1|| reh*aa*o ||
_O Primal Lord. Your limits are not known; You create, and create, and behold the scenes. ||1||Pause||_

jdhu sIAw vIAwhIAw lwVy sohin pwis ]
jadhah*u* s*ee**aa* v*ee**aa*h*ee**aa* l*aa*rr*ae* s*o*han p*aa*s ||
_When they were married, their husbands looked so handsome beside them._

hIfolI ciV AweIAw dMd KMf kIqy rwis ]
h*ee*dd*o*l*ee* charr *aa**ee**aa* dha(n)dh kha(n)dd k*ee*th*ae* r*aa*s ||
_They came in palanquins, decorated with ivory;_

auprhu pwxI vwrIAY Jly iJmkin pwis ]2]
o*u*parah*u* p*aa*n*ee* v*aa*r*ee**ai* jhal*ae* jh*i*makan p*aa*s ||2||
_water was sprinkled over their heads, and glittering fans were waved above them. ||2||_

ieku lKu lhin@ bihTIAw lKu lhin@ KVIAw ]
e*i*k lakh lehan*i*h beh*i*t(h)*ee**aa* lakh lehan*i*h kharr*ee**aa* ||
_They were given hundreds of thousands of coins when they sat, and hundreds of thousands of coins when they stood._

grI Cuhwry KWdIAw mwxin@ syjVIAw ]
gar*ee* shh*u*h*aa*r*ae* kh*aa(n)*dh*ee**aa* m*aa*nan*i*h s*ae*jarr*ee**aa* ||
_They ate coconuts and dates, and rested comfortably upon their beds._

iqn@ gil islkw pweIAw qutin@ moqsrIAw ]3]
th*i*nh gal s*i*lak*aa* p*aa**ee**aa* th*u*ttan*i*h m*o*thasar*ee**aa* ||3||
_But ropes were put around their necks, and their strings of pearls were broken. ||3||_

Dnu jobnu duie vYrI hoey ijn@I rKy rMgu lwie ]
dhhan j*o*ban dh*u*e v*ai*r*ee* h*o*e*ae* j*i*nh*ee* rakh*ae* ra(n)g l*aa*e ||
_Their wealth and youthful beauty, which gave them so much pleasure, have now become their enemies._

dUqw no PurmwieAw lY cly piq gvwie ]
dh*oo*th*aa* n*o* f*u*ram*aa*e*i**aa* l*ai* chal*ae* path gav*aa*e ||
_The order was given to the soldiers, who dishonored them, and carried them away._

jy iqsu BwvY dy vifAweI jy BwvY dyie sjwie ]4]
j*ae* th*i*s bh*aa*v*ai* dh*ae* vadd*i**aa**ee* j*ae* bh*aa*v*ai* dh*ae*e saj*aa*e ||4||
_If it is pleasing to God's Will, He bestows greatness; if is pleases His Will, He bestows punishment. ||4||_

Ago dy jy cyqIAY qW kwiequ imlY sjwie ]
ag*o* dh*ae* j*ae* ch*ae*th*ee**ai* th*aa(n)* k*aa*e*i*th m*i*l*ai* saj*aa*e ||
_If someone focuses on the Lord beforehand, then why should he be punished?_

swhW suriq gvweIAw rMig qmwsY cwie ]
s*aa*h*aa(n)* s*u*rath gav*aa**ee**aa* ra(n)g tham*aa*s*ai* ch*aa*e ||
_The kings had lost their higher consciousness, reveling in pleasure and sensuality._

bwbrvwxI iPir geI kuieru n rotI Kwie ]5]
b*aa*barav*aa*n*ee* f*i*r g*ee* k*u*e*i*r n r*o*tt*ee* kh*aa*e ||5||
_Since Baabar's rule has been proclaimed, even the princes have no food to eat. ||5||_

ieknw vKq KuAweIAih iekn@w pUjw jwie ]
e*i*kan*aa* vakhath kh*u**aa**ee*ah*i* e*i*kanh*aa* p*oo*j*aa* j*aa*e ||
_The Muslims have lost their five times of daily prayer, and the Hindus have lost their worship as well._

cauky ivxu ihMdvwxIAw ikau itky kFih nwie ]
cho*u*k*ae* v*i*n h*i*(n)dhav*aa*n*ee**aa* k*i*o tt*i*k*ae* kadteh*i* n*aa*e ||
_Without their sacred places, how shall the Hindu women bathe and apply the frontal marks to their foreheads?_

rwmu n kbhU cyiqE huix khix n imlY Kudwie ]6]
r*aa*m n kabeh*oo* ch*ae*th*i*ou h*u*n kehan n m*i*l*ai* kh*u*dh*aa*e ||6||
_They never remembered their Lord as Raam, and now they cannot even chant Khudaa-i||6||_

ieik Gir Awvih AwpxY ieik imil imil puCih suK ]
e*i*k ghar *aa*veh*i* *aa*pan*ai* e*i*k m*i*l m*i*l p*u*shheh*i* s*u*kh ||
_Some have returned to their homes, and meeting their relatives, they ask about their safety._

iekn@w eyho iliKAw bih bih rovih duK ]
e*i*kanh*aa* e*ae*h*o* l*i*kh*i**aa* beh*i* beh*i* r*o*veh*i* dh*u*kh ||
_For some, it is pre-ordained that they shall sit and cry out in pain._

jo iqsu BwvY so QIAY nwnk ikAw mwnuK ]7]11]
j*o* th*i*s bh*aa*v*ai* s*o* thh*ee**ai* n*aa*nak k*i**aa* m*aa*n*u*kh ||7||11||
_Whatever pleases Him, comes to pass. O Nanak, what is the hands of mankind? ||7||11_





Jatinder Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (May 14, 2006)

Gurfateh


[





> quote=bulleshah]*vijadeepsingh,*
> 
> What do you mean by join this or join that and save yourself. Just because I am
> a sanatan doesn't mean I am going to follow it blindly. Raja Ram Mohan Roy said
> ...


 

but the way you thonk that you are ultimate ,then people who are there to end hindus will take care of you as with your idea there can not be a unity,Das invited you for unity.

By the way das does not follows First Gurus body but verses which Akal made to come unto him and so are words of Akal and are ultimate.


why are you so much after Raja Ram mohan Rai as das did not even qoute one saying of him.

but just wanted you to know your owin history.

Denaiabilty of what ,Do you want want to have your own kind of religeon,then das will encourage you and we have Devine Senative(our memeber here),who will help you in that.


Say if many people considered great by Hindus behold hinduas an abuse.so you say that we must not follow them as they are wrong,Then why do yuo generalised your clwons with all the Sikhs.

Das used very same logic of you unto you.



> I am better off being an agnostic. I am not saying I don't believe in a God. I am
> open to the idea. Only I don't give two hoot's about trying to appease her/him...


 

Das can say that by mercy of that Akal that self das can help you to se that.Rest is in hand of Akal and Akal's mercy if you see that or not.



> That Sikhism you are so proud of today exactly is the way Hinduism was 500 years ago.


 
you are agian wrong,at that times Hindus were never proud,rather they were put under the thumb of invaders.

They were thinking themselve racialy higher then rest and felow Hindus so division was there.
In Gurmat pride is one of the five wise.

As your servent Das is trying to serve you by let ultimate truth be known by you.



> Grow you hair and beard else you are ‘patit’ or ‘adharmi’. It’s a case of another God
> turning against itself. An edifice created by the Human mind, decimated by Human nature.


 
you need to know that we have many ordrers within Gurmat namly Udaseens,Nirmalas,Sevapanthis or say Nanakpanthi(Hindus) and Nanakshahi(Muslims) and Sahijdharis and all of them often without 5ks are better then some with 5ks.

who told you that one who does not grows hairs or keeps 5ks is Adharmi or patit.Adhamri is one who does not respect Akal in universe and see Akal in all.Patit is one who after baptism breakes the rule and he/she is told before baptism for that.

It is coming that you inagine us someting liked based upon hindu model and carry out similar things.

While many Hindus also do not have such descrimnations.And within us if someone does like that then you do not have to think that das is also tagging you like that.




> Sikhism was born in an age when Hinduism had absorbed corrupting influences and was
> rendered as just a doctrine in rituals and outward appearances. Nanaks struggle was
> against that.


 
Man he struggled against wrong practise of Muslims,Yogis and Jains also but that was not the only thing,He also made some new things which made faith undefeatable in future,As Akal is neither Hindu nor Muslim so do Akal worshippers should not divide.But you are still upto divide the same faith from rest of the word and unite with highy interastically divided Hindusim.


> The Hindus no longer wear a ‘janneyu’ or shave their heads but nobody
> calls them ‘adharmy’.


 
that is the reason that Dharma in them is deing and many of them are converting to other faiths.

The orders of Hindus which win converts say Chinmiya Missioan,Iskon or say Sri Sri Ravisankara,they do preach non dulity in such way that what we think in mind should be in apirance.

Say if sleeping with sister is sin in hindus yet hindus does it,and Hindus still do not call him Adharmi and what was told in Vedas or scripture nopt folowing yet procaliming hindu,yes that is hallm ark of them as it is name of slavery and in past they were pagan farsi and at present it could personal needs ,which could mould the faith on own will.good very good and if such things are there in hindus then there is not needs to worry for Anti hindus as hindus themselves are one the way of destrcutions.


Gurmat is never against Janeu for nor Sikh say Sanatan Dharmi but more was told to understadn the meaning of symbol of it then say use it as dogma.Bhai Balbeer Singh Ji can guide you more on that.



> But the moment a Sikh shaves his beard he is branded as adharmy
> by the ignorant Granthi’s.
> 
> 
> ...


 

yuo forgot that Guru told that Kes Dhare na Mile Hari payre.

God can not be obtained by merely keeping hairs.


And that was by Tenth Master only.
But are we in Gurmat working to get Sidhis or love for the will refuge of Akal.And once it is found ,is there any need left for us to have our individual beudy of skin or hair and

to end the racial oregeoanl diferance ,if our Guru gives us the his own form then what problem do you have?

Just for you ,that Hairs are porrf that Sidhi is obtained.



> But the Neo-Sikh clowns continue to say they are different from Hindu's but we know
> they say so not not because they are really different but because they want to be.
> 
> 
> *Thanks.*


[/QUOTE]

When someone asked Guru Gobind Singh Ji about the doferance between Sikh and Hindu,Guru did not talk about 5ks.He said that Dharm Karj ie deeds of rightousness,one who does just as tool of God and without asking for return in Sikh.And one who does it for return is Hindu.(Sau Sakhi)

Sanatan and Hindu can not never be one but are rather oppsosite thing.

And Guru gave universal defination of Sikh(like say Muslim) and hindu(say like {censored} in them).That a general human even with baptism and 5ks if does good work for return is Hindu,while a Janeu wearing person or Circusensed person does good deed without ego like toolof God is a Sikh.

But gaining such state is by mercy of Akal and das knows that you may want to be Sikh then be Hindu as per defiantion given above by Das.


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