# What Is Faith And Dharama As Per Gurbani



## harpreetsingh (Aug 31, 2007)

1.
nwnk eyk joiq duie mUrqI sbid imlwvw hoie ]4]11]44] (30-19, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
O Nanak, the One Light has two forms; through the Shabad, union is attained. ||4||11||44||
*2.*
*pMnw 31*
*isrIrwgu mhlw 3 ] (31-1)*
Siree Raag, Third Mehl:

AMimRqu Coif ibiKAw loBwxy syvw krih ivfwxI ] (31-1, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
Discarding the Ambrosial Nectar, they greedily grab the poison; they serve others, instead of the Lord.
3.
Awpxw Drmu gvwvih bUJih nwhI Anidnu duiK ivhwxI ] (31-2, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
They lose their faith, they have no understanding; night and day, they suffer in pain.

**********************************************************************************
Many a times seemingly simple looking Tuks/lines/ of SGGS ji appear simple. I could not make out many things from the following lines. The words that specifically need clarification are as follows:

1.
What exactly is "sabad' as referred to above.Kindly ignore the translation.It may not be the only one .I am giving it for ready reference only. I am presuming that the Sabad used here is not the 'words of SGGS'

2.
What is the meaning of 'Dharam' in the lines.It cannot be sikh religion.Shall be grateful if you can spare some time and guide me thru the meaning .
3.
What is the meaning of 'faith' in the above.Is it faith in GOD or faith in something else.


Regards


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## Astroboy (Aug 31, 2007)

Let me take you through a journey. You are at home in Sach Khand. There is no difference between you and God as you are one. There are no concepts, no questions, no dharma, no explanations because there is no mind. 

Suddenly I AM , I have an identity, I realized that everything is limited to 4 dimensional vision. A few bright and radiant lights emerged out from a shiny lake. Those who had not dip themselves in these lakes of Mansarover had not received their full radiance. Master souls were greeting the new-comers to Mansarover. There was the Golden Temple, so huge and so magnificient that it stood out amongst all other beautiful scenery. I was not alone in this motionless motion, I was travelling further and further away from home. There was darkness for the first time. Telepathy was a language easy to learn. Communication started amongst all of us.

This darkness was called Gupha. When I got used to the darkness, there was vision and I realized those around me visioned this dream-world differently from each other. Far away from my home, now in an alien land, getting used to it was challenging.

I had put on a skin that communicated with all lights at the same time. There was a sound of flute which comforted us on this journey. It reminded me of home. This soothing sound acted as my mother, never letting my thoughts to wonder too widely and kept me protected under its supreme light. 
Whatever I thought, every light knew my thoughts. We were all individual lights. A thought-form reminded us that we are not small lights, each of us shine equivalent to the radiance of a thousand suns and our beauty is like a hundred moon lights at this present point. This skin was the Universal Mind. As more thought-forms were received, the skin became thicker. This was the mind forming its lower attributes and I became conscious of myself as an individual. 

Part of the thought-forms transmitted to me were "get ready for the MEST worlds, it is going to get tough and rough." A master soul guided us throughout the journey. I did not know what MEST was until it came. The journey still continued and a heavy garment got attached to me. It was the emotional body.
When I left Gupha, which is also known as the land of a trillion suns, emotional body took most of the beating from the courser vibrations of the MEST world. Below I could see universes forming and disintergrating in accordance to the great sound current which glowed the strength of a billion suns. Some of the pounding was so strong that I felt no difference between emotions and myself. The journey was dark, at least Mansarover was bright compared to this place. It is called Tribitch. The celestial sound current pulls your attention. Sound was similar to a waterfall. This sound is a stargate, the guide told us. Many use it to travel, instantly reaching their destination. 

What is this place ? I asked my companions. They said, "realm of Matter, Energy, Space and Time - MEST. Those dim lamps are the splinters of a nebula, but they will become very bright when we wear a magnifying suit known as a physical body. But before we came to the physical world, we visited a museum of earth in this palace whose gates were made of sparkling gems and crystals. In an instance, we were educated about earth's history. The sound current here was different, sounds similar to bells ringing at a far distance. This co{censored}r sound was something that took a while to get used to, sometimes it was annoying. Emotion was fully exhibited by everyone around. 

 Our guide left us at the door of the astral region and we greeted farewell to him and each other as we knew this was the point of separation and we all wne our own ways. A great pulling force sucked me downwards and then upwards, interrupted by a jolt and it was a roller coaster ride after that; feelings burst out into so many types of emotions in six directions, each creating a different effect and then I had to slip into this magnifying suit. It jump started all by itself with the primary audiable emotion. I felt like I was in the driver's seat where everything was running on automation.

After all these years, I have faint memories of my home. I long to go home. These are the pangs of separation from my sweet home. 

.......................................................................................................

*The above is a self-created fiction.*

Begum


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## Astroboy (Aug 31, 2007)

(485-7)
aasaa naamdayv jee-o
Raag Aasaa Naam Dayv Jee​ 
aaneelay kumbh bharaa-eelay oodak thaakur ka-o isnaan kara-o.
Bringing the pitcher, I fill it with water, to bathe the Lord.​ 
ba-i-aalees lakh jee jal meh hotay beethal bhailaa kaa-ay kara-o. ||1||
But 4.2 million species of beings are in the water - how can I use it for the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny? ||1||​ 
jatar jaa-o tat beethal bhailaa.
Wherever I go, the Lord is there.​ 
mahaa anand karay sad kaylaa. ||1|| rahaa-o.
He continually plays in supreme bliss. ||1||Pause||​ 
aaneelay fool paro-eelay maalaa thaakur kee ha-o pooj kara-o.
I bring flowers to weave a garland, in worshipful adoration of the Lord.​ 
pahilay baas la-ee hai bhavrah beethal bhailaa kaa-ay kara-o. ||2||
But the bumble bee has already sucked out the fragrance - how can I use it for the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny? ||2||​ 
aaneelay dooDh reeDhaa-eelay kheeraN thaakur ka-o naivayd kara-o.
I carry milk and cook it to make pudding, with which to feed the Lord.​ 
pahilay dooDh bitaari-o bachhrai beethal bhailaa kaa-ay kara-o. ||3||
But the calf has already tasted the milk - how can I use it for the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny? ||3||​ 
eebhai beethal oobhai beethal beethal bin sansaar nahee.
The Lord is here, the Lord is there; without the Lord, there is no world at all.​ 
thaan thanantar naamaa paranvai poor rahi-o tooN sarab mahee. ||4||2||
Prays Naam Dayv, O Lord, You are totally permeating and pervading all places and interspaces. ||4||2||​ 


What does one do when the yeaning to be in the company of Shabad, the Celestial Sound Current is genuinely strong ?

Even after checking out with the so-called 'Sants'. Sadhus and so-called "living Gurus" we realize they have misused the teachings with thier very convincing formulae and engaged in personal financial and worldly-fame hunger. All this is merely serving the ego and not God. In the initial stages, many Living Sants would "qualify" to be God-men. But it becomes too late when reality about them is exposed.


*Why is Sikhism special ? *
*Because we have the Living Guru/Gurbani Shabad/Wayshower to point at the right direction of how one can link to God. A common myth that God exists beyond the physical body has been over-emphasised because SGGS Ji shows us how to appreciate God's presence in our daily lives because God is present in His creation.*

(pMnw 1349-19)
parbhaatee kabeer jee-o.
Parbhaatee Kabeer Jee-o

aval alah noor upaa-i-aa kudrat kay sabh banday.
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.
 
ayk noor tay sabh jag upji-aa ka-un bhalay ko manday. ||1||
From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1||

logaa bharam na bhoolahu bhaa-ee.
O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.

khaalik khalak khalak meh khaalik poor rahi-o sarab thaaN-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o.
The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||

maatee ayk anayk bhaaNt kar saajee saajanhaarai.
The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.

naa kachh poch maatee kay bhaaNday naa kachh poch kumbhaarai. ||2||
There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||

sabh meh sachaa ayko so-ee tis kaa kee-aa sabh kachh ho-ee.
The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made.

hukam pachhaanai so ayko jaanai bandaa kahee-ai so-ee. ||3||
Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord. He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||

alhu alakh na jaa-ee lakhi-aa gur gurh deenaa meethaa.
The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.

kahi kabeer mayree sankaa naasee sarab niranjan deethaa. ||4||3||
Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away; I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. ||4||3||. ​



Many of those who were seekers but are just two steps ahead of you, have fallen backwards into the traps of Maya through Greed and Manipulation by using Gurbani verses to trap their innocent victims. 

More Later.


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## Astroboy (Aug 31, 2007)

"In the imperishable realm of the Formless Lord, I play the flute of the unstruck sound current."​






God's name was always on the lips of Bhagat Namdev Ji. He was asked by the king to show miracles. Bhagat Namdev Ji refused to do so and was thrown before a drunk elephant to be crushed to death. God saved His own saint. Bhagat Namdev Ji spent the last day of his life in village Guman, now in district Gurdaspur, Punjab (India). 
Guru Granth Sahib recognizes many saints of the Bhakti movement of medieval India. Namdev are the saints belonging to this movement which swept across the North India from 1100 A.D. till 1600 A.D. When Fifth Guru Guru Arjan dev ji compiled Guru Granth Sahib, he decided to give some recognition to the saints of Bhakti movement, that is the reason that Guru Granth Sahib contains verses of such saints. In some cases Guru Granth Sahib is the only voice remained for such saints over the years. 
According to the generally accepted version of the current traditions, Namdev was born in AD 1270 to Damasheti, a low-caste tailor, and his wife, Gonabai, in the village of Naras-Vamani, in Satara district of Maharashtra. Janabai, the family's maidservant and a bhakta and poetess in her own right, records the tradition that Namdev was born to Gonabai as a result of her worship of Vitthala in Pandharpur. Namdev was married before he was eleven years of age to Rajabal, daughter of Govinda sheti Sadavarte. He had four sons and one daughter, Under the influence of saint Jnanadeva, Namdev was converted to the path of bhakti. Vitthala of Pandharpur was now the object of his devotion and he spent much of his time in worship and kirtan, chanting mostly verses of his own composition. In the company of Jnanadeva and other saints, he roamed about the country and later came to the Punjab where he is said to have lived for more than twenty years at Ghuman, in Gurdaspur district, where a temple in the form of samadh still preserves his memory. This temple was constructed by Sardar Jassa Singh Ramgarhia and the tank by its side was got repaired by Rani Sada Kaur , mother-in-law of Maharaja Ranjit Singh . In his early fifties, Namdev settled down at Pandharpur where he gathered around himself a group of devotees. His abhangas or devotional lyrics became very popular, and people thronged to listen to his kirtan. Namdev's songs have been collected in Namdevachi Gatha which also includes the long autobiographical poem Tirathavah. His Hindi verse and his extended visit to the Punjab carried his fame far beyond the borders of Maharashtra. Sixty-one of his hymns in fact came to be included in Sikh Scripture, the Guru Granth Sahib. These hymns or sabdas share the common characteristic of lauding the One Supreme God distinct from his earlier verse which carries traces of idolatry and saguna bhakti. In the course of his spiritual quest, Namdev had, from being a worshipper of the Divine in the concrete form, become a devotee of the attributeless ( nirguna) Absolute.


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## harpreetsingh (Aug 31, 2007)

Respected friend,

Your explanation is nice. I am an illeterate and could not corelate the above posts with the specific questions that I have requested to be answered.

Yes, There are many things in the verse of namdev ji that you have quoted above. It is true that we are part and parcel of one and only one i.e. SAT the Saibhang.
True that the upper crust of bread is brown but the entire bread is not so. But it is bread.Like wise that what we perceive and interpret may not be in tune with the prevailing practice or the contemporary expositions. Hence the doubt.
Referring back to the question ' Sabad' has appeared in SGGS at many places and has its own color and shade. Sometimes it looks to mean/imply gurbani at another place it is not so. When pre fixed with 'guru' it would mean Gurbani. But when Sabad appears in stand alone manner its meaning has to be deduced. I am not very clear about the meaning of 'Sabad' that is stated in the first post of the thread. Kindly guide me.

Like wise what is ,Dharma' .its translation would be religion or if taken to be a sanskrit word it should mean 'duty'.In the above lines and in the context of the above the meaning is not clear to me. Kindly throw some light.

The edges of omlette when overheated or over fried will loose the golden colour.But the faith is another thing. It should imply that we should have some faith in the 'Gurmat' or the gurbani. Kindly clarify.

Regards.

Sorry my English is not good and there may be errors in the above. Kindly ignore them.


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## Astroboy (Aug 31, 2007)

Kindly ignore all irrelevances coz I am merely using your question as a spring-board to answer my own personal queries. 
I am not a 'qualified Giani' to be able to answer your questions. Please forgive me.
 Also what is your opinion of using pictures to remind us of sakhis ? Do they cause fixation is one's mind ?  However, fixation on our Prime Mool Mantar is necessary. If I sound confusing to you, then please ignore what I've mentioned. Thanks.


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## harpreetsingh (Aug 31, 2007)

One need not be a 'giani' in expressing the meaning of a particular expression the way one thinks. I need not be an Engineer to tell as to how a computer works. Yes, I should be a qualified medical practitioner if I have to prescribe some medicine to a patient. In our case none of the above is applicable. You are free to tell as to how you would interpret these wprds/phrases etc.
Regarding Saakhis, it is to state that ,frankly speaking, I am not aware of many of them. 

Your expressions are nice and beautiful It is a pleasure to go thru. your posts .I have gone thru. your posts in other threads as well. You can help me out that I have requested for. I have just started exploring Gurbani. Hence I may have doubts of basics.


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## Astroboy (Sep 1, 2007)

_Gurbani _talks of _traiguni maya _or _traiguni sansaar. Trai _means three
and _gun _means attributes or qualities. The three _gun _referred to are 
_rajo gun, tamo __gun and sato gun. _These three qualities of the materialistic 
world govern the lives of the vast majority of us who are misled by _maya. _
Guru Arjan Dev says that the Lord created the world that we see, His 
_sargun _form, from His unseen _nergun _form –
_nergun tay sargun drestaarang. _​_
_​_
_In His _sargun _form the Lord created the presence of
these _gun _of _maya._
_Bhenn bhenn traigun besthaaran(g). Nergun tay sargun drestaaran(g). _P.250​ 
Guru Amar Das says that foolish people blindly serve these three ​
​
_gun _by indulging in materialistic activities – _moorakh andhay traigun sayveh. _They aretraders of _maya – maya kai beuhaari._
_Moorakh andhay trai gun sayveh maya kai beuhaari. _P.1246​ 
In the ​
​
_Anand Saheb Bani _Guru Ji says that under the influence of the _trai gun_
the whole world is asleep, i.e. oblivious of the Godly path – ​
​
_sansaar bharm suta._
One’s whole life which is described as a night – ​
​
_rain – _is spent in this _maya moh _sleep
– _sutea rain vehaani. _It is only with the guru’s _kerpa _that one wakes – _jaagay –_
from this sleep.
_Tehi guni sansaar bharm suta sutea rain vehaani. Gur kerpa tay say jan_
_jaagay……… _P.922​ 
According to Guru Nanak Dev persons under the influence of the three ​
​
_gun _cannot get across the _bhavjal – nahi paar utaara. _Their efforts are in no way fruitful –

_trehu gun antar khapeh khapaaveh._
_Trehu gun antar khapeh khapaaveh nahi paar utaara hay. _P.1029​ 
Guru Ji says that the ​
​
_trai gun _are the cause of a person falling into _vekaars –_
_trai gun sarb janjaal hai_. As such love for _naam _cannot develop – 
_naam na dharay __pyar._
_Trai gun sarb janjaal hai naam na dharay pyar. _P.1284​ 
Guru Amar Das says that spiritual death – ​
​
_aatmak maut – _has a hold on those
whose lives are governed by _traigun – kaalai ki ser kaara. _They never think of the
Creator who is termed _upaavanhaara. _They face repeated births and deaths – 
_m__ar __jammeh vaaro vaara._
_Trai gun kaalai ki ser kaara. Naam na cayteh upaavanhaara. Mar jammeh fer_
_vaaro vaara. _P.232​ 
_Traigun _activity results in chasing after _maya – traigun sabha dhaat hai. _By​

being obsessed with it one can neither resort to _bhagti _nor can one get to love the
Lord. Whatever one does is subject to _haumai – haumai karm kmaahe. _Hence there
can be no freedom from _vekaars – mukat kaday na hova-i, _and there is no possibility​of attaining high spiritual status – _gat._
Guru Ji mentions it thus:
_Traigun sabha dhaat hai na Har bhagt(i) na bhaae. Gat mukat kaday na hovai_
_haumai karm kmaahe. _P.1258​

According to Guru Ji it is the ​
​
_traigun / tregun maya _which makes the world go
astray – _jen jagat bhulaea, _and instills the fear of repeated births and deaths in its
victims – _janm marn ka sehsa._
_Ayh tregun maya jen jagat bhulaea janm marn ka sehsa. _P.1257​ 
Bhagat Kabir says that what is referred to as ​
​
_rajo gu_n_, tamo gun, sato gun _is
all the Lord’s _maya._
_Raj gun, tam gun sat gun kahi-ai eh tayri sabh maya. _P.1123​ 
_Rajo gun _leads to passion, greed, lust, arrogance and restlessness. A​

person under the influence of this attribute is fickle minded and is not steadfast in
what he does. There is a desire to do this and that and he often wastes his energies in
resorting to various activities. He endeavours to attain wealth, position and prestige,
spurred on by pride and ego i.e. _haumai. _This attribute is the root cause of _lobh, moh,_
_ahan(g)kaar._
_Tamo _means darkness and this attribute suffocates spiritual life because of
ignorance. The principle of activity in _rajo gun _gives way to inertia in _tamo gun. _One
gets corrupted by the five _kaamadaks _and vigilance and alertness of mind forsake the
person. He tends to become avaracious, angry, jealous and egoistic.
Both _rajo gun _and _tamo gun _tend to go hand in hand. Where one is found
there is every possibility that the other too will be present and both tend to ruin one’s
spirituality and bring _aatmak maut._
_Sato gun _is at a higher level than the previous two attributes. With this
attribute governing the life of a person, he enjoys peace of mind. He tends to have pity
and compassion on suffering creatures and people, and makes an effort to help them.
He is forgiving and feels happy resorting to activities spurred on by this quality.
Although at a higher level than _rajo _and _tamo _the person under the influence of _sato_
_gun _does experience _haumai _but the _haumai _here is of a more subtle type as happens
when a person doing something good such as doing _kirtan _or _sayva _in a temple is
spurred on more by the praise of people or by some monetary reward than by the
inherent love of the activity itself.
A person who reaches the stage of _sato gun _can be said to have advanced
spiritually from the earlier two stages but he is still a creature of _maya. _Guru Ram
Das says that the three prominent _devtas – _Brahma, Veshnu, and Shev, were still
subject to _maya _even though they had become demi Gods. They became victims of
_haumai _and hence suffered. They failed in their rememberance of the Lord Creator –​


_jen kee-ay teseh na cayteh bapray. _​_
_​_
_Understanding of the Lord can be derived only by
seeking the _saran _of the guru – _Har gurmukh sojhi pa-ee. _(Shev is also referred to as
Mahadeu).
_Brahma, Besan, Mahadeu, trai gun rogi vec haumai kaar kma-ee. Jen kee-ay_
_teseh na cayteh bapray Har gurmukh sojhi pa-ee_. P.735


Guru Nanak Dev describes the ​
​
_trai gun _thus: _rajo gun _as air – _pavn, tamo gun_
as fire – _ag/agan, _and _sato gun _as water – _bemb. _The whole world is subject to these 
three _gun, _and Guru Ji says that the world consists of these three – _agan bemb pavn ki_​

_bani. _Here _bani _means creation. Guru Ji goes on to say that in spite of their powerful
influence the _trai gun _are servants of _naam – teen naam kay daasa, _and they have no
power over those who resort to _naam semran._
_Agan bemb pavn ki bani teen naam kay daasa. _P.1328​ 
Guru Amar Das points out that he who can eliminate the influence of the ​
​
_trai __gun _becomes _nermal – trai gun maytay nermal hoi. _His _jeevatma _becomes pure. Hismind stops wandering and he acquires the _sehaj _state. By resorting to _naam semran _he
succeeds in realizing the Lord who is described as _saac Prabh._
_Trai gun maytay nermal hoi. Sehjay saac melai Prabh soi. _P.232​ 
All our materialistic activities are carried out under the influence of these three
_gun – trebedh, _and according to Guru Nanak Dev these give rise to various hopes and​

anxieties – _aas andaysa hoe._
_Trebedh karm kma-ee-eh aas andaysa hoe. _P.18​ 
Because of the powerful influence of the _trai gun _the mind’s desires never get​

fulfilled. Only the man, in whose mind the Lord’s _naam _begins to dwell, can free
himself from the clutches of _maya _and its _trai gun. _This is attained when one seeks
the _saran _of the guru and becomes a true devotee. He then acquires a deep
understanding of the Lord and the _jeevatma _becomes one with the Lord, the _Parm_
_Atma. _This stage is known as _turi aavastha _or _turia aavastha. _On the other hand, as
Guru Ji says, those who love the _trai gun _experience repeated births and deaths –
_janm marai trai gun hetkaar._

_Janm marai trai gun hetkaar …… Turi aavastha satgur tay Har jaan. _P.154​ 
Guru Ji emphasises the fact that by seeking the ​
​
_saran _of the guru worldly hopes and desires – _aasa mansa – _can be eliminated thus enabling one to remainabove these and becoming _neraas - _without any _aasa mansa. _When one becomes a
_gurmukh _by moulding his life as per the teachings of the guru and by participating in​

_sant sabha / sat sang _for _ot / aasra _and support one acquires _turi aavastha._​

_Aasa mansa do-oo benaast trehu gun aas neraas bha-i. Turi aavastha_
_gurmukh pa-ee-ai sant sabha ki ot lahi. _P.356​ 
According to Guru Ji, when one attains the fourth stage of ​
​
_turia avastha -_
_cauthay thaaveh leh paavai, _the _trai gun - rajas, taamas, sat - _get merged with the
_cautha pad - kaal smaavai. _​_
_​_
_In this fourth stage one experiences peace of mind. The mind becomes calm and cool - 
_shaant seetal. _Guru Ji says that the heat from the _trai_
_gun _sun - _soor, _gets lost in the cool _shaant _conditions of the _turia _moon - 
_sasiar kai __ghar soor smaavai._
_Caudas cauthay thaaveh leh paavai. Raajas taamas sat kaal smaavai. Sasiar_
_kai ghar soor smaavai. _P.840

Guru Amar Das says that the shackles of ​
_trai gun maya – trebedh bandhan -_
can be broken only with the help of the ​
​
_gur sabad – tooteh gur sabdi, _by considering
the _sabad _and moulding one’s life according to its teaching. Then only the Lord 

blesses the devotee with freedom from the bonds of _maya _whereby he now becomes _mukat._​
_Trebedh bandhan tooteh gur sabdi gur sabdi mukat kraavnea. _P127​ 
Guru Ji goes on to say that ​
​
_turia gun _is acquired by participation in _saadh_
_sangat – turia gun sat sangat pa-ee-ai. _He who acquires this _gun _is then helped by the
Lord, who blesses him with His _mehar di nadar _to get across the world ocean – _nadri_
_paar utari._
_Turia gun sat sangat pa-ee-ai nadri paar utari. _P.1260​ 
Guru Arjan Dev points out that the three ​
​
_gun _keep on influencing everyone in the world – _teen beapeh jagat kau. _Rare is the person 
who acquires the _turia _stage.
Guru Ji goes on to say that under the influence of the _trai gun _one acquires the fruits
of _veshay vekaar _thus resulting in sinking in the _vekaars _at times and becoming​
_neec, _and sometimes rising above them and becoming _uttam. _In this way they suffer
heaven and hell – _surag nark – _which means experiencing _sukh dukh. _Their minds
wander a lot – _bharmtau ghano, _and fear of death – _meec -_always bothers them –
_sada sanghaarai meec._
_Teen beapeh jagat kau turia paavai koe. …Tretia trai gun bekhai fal kab_
_utttam kab neec. Nark surag bharmtau ghano sada sanghaarai meec. _P.297​ 
Guru Ji says that we should regard what the Lord does - ​
​
_jo kech karai - _as
something good - _bhala kar maanau. _By following this rule the mind attains _sehaj._
_Jo kech karai soi bhal maanau ta(n) man sehaj smaana. _P.782​ 
Man comes to this world as a trader – ​
​
_vanjaara – _for the purpose of trading
and accumulating the _naam _of the Lord. Guru Ji says that those who have loads of this
everlasting _naam _commodity - _sac vakhar jen ladea – _are the true traders described
as _sacray pasaar. _But such _vanjaaras / pasaari _are very few. The large majority are
the ones who are influenced by _traigun maya, _here referred to as _tehatray bajaar – _the
_bajaar _of the three _hatt _i.e. _trai gun_​

_Tehatray bajaar sauda karn vanjaarea. Sac vakhar jeni ladea say sacray_
_pasaar. _P.1425​ 
The _turi avastha _is also known as _cautha pad, _i.e. the fourth stage. Guru Ji in​

_Sukhmani bani _says that he who resorts to _naam semran _as a result of the guru’s _kerpa_​

attains the fourth stage with its sublime spiritual status – ​
​
_cauthay pad meh gat paa-ay._
_Kar kerpa jes aapnai naam laa-ay. Nanak cauthay pad meh so jan gat paa-ay._
P.284​ 
Guru Nanak Dev says, “Oh Lord ​
​
_raj tam sat  _all are the result - _chaea - _of your power – _kal. _Going through various lives
 and deaths is something which you created. So too is the _dukh _of _haumai _which you have
 given to beings. Oh Lord, when you shower your _mehar _on someone that person seeks the
_saran _of the guru and he reaches the fourth stage where he becomes _mukat, _free from 
attachment to _maya._”​​​​


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## harpreetsingh (Sep 1, 2007)

Respected friend,
Very many thanks for providing the guidance and giving here much more than that was requested for. I shall take my time to digest the information.
In the meantime thanks once again.
Regards!


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## Astroboy (Sep 1, 2007)

I should thank you for giving me the opportunity to straighten my own queries left unanswered at the back of my mind. You motivated me. Thanks.


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## Astroboy (Sep 1, 2007)

I should thank you for giving me the opportunity to straighten my own queries left unanswered at the back of my mind. You motivated me. Thanks.
I will post the final part of this article later.


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## Astroboy (Sep 2, 2007)

_Raj tam sat kal tayri chaea. Janm marn haumai dukh paea. Jes no kerpa karay
Har gurmukh gun cauthai mukat krae(n)da.​_​P.1038​

Guru Amar Das says something similar when he mentions that​_trai gun _is​
_maya moh -​_​attachment to _maya, _and it is the _gurmukh _who attains _cautha pad.
Traigun maya moh hai gurmukh cautha pad pae. _P.30​
qRY gux mwieAw mohu hY gurmuiK cauQw pdu pwie Ò​According to Guru Ji a​_gurmukh _recognizes this fourth stage – _cautha pad
ceenai. _This stage is beyond the influence of _trai gun _and the _gurmukh _resorts to​
_naam semran​_​and enjoys _sukh – sukh hoi.
Gurmukh hovai cautha pad ceenai Ram naam sukh hoi. _P.604​
gurmuiK hovY cauQw pdu cInY rwm nwim suK hoeI Ò​_Naam semran​_​and _bhagti _are synonymous with one another and the influence
of _traigun _can be eliminated only by _bhagti. _It seems strange or unusual how _bhagti_​_
_can enable one to proceed to the​_cautha pad _stage. _Bhagti _exerts a tremendous pull
on the mind of the devotee towards spiritual perfection. According to Guru Nanak
Dev the destruction of the influence of _trai gun – trai gun maytay, _and the
attainment of the fourth stage is the result of _bhagti. _Guru Ji describes this as _nerari
– _unusual.​
_Traigun maytay cauthai vartai ayha bhagt(i)​_​nerari_. _P.908​

The nine openings of the body, i.e. nasal passages, eyes, ears, mouth and
excretory organs,referred to as​_chedar _in chapter 15 are also described as _duar /
darvaajay, _meaning entrances. Nine _duar _are visible. The mind is referred to as​
_dasva(n) duar.​_​This _duar _is not visible and is deemed locked because of the mind’s
preoccupation with _trai gun maya. _But it can be opened with the aid of _Gurbani._​_
_When​_Gurbani _is used as a key to open this _duar - dasvai(n) duar kunji jab deejai -_​_
_then only can one meet the​_dyal Prabhu - tau dyal ko darsan keejai. _When the mind
becomes preoccupied with _Gurbani _the _dasva(n) duar _opens up. _Maya moh _now fails
to lock out any spiritual pursuits. One gets emancipated from the _vekaar _tendencies
of the nine _dua_r. Bhagat Kabir mentions it thus.​
_Dasvai(n) duar kunji jab deejai tau dyal ko darsan keejai.​_​P.341​

Guru Amar Das states that when the nine openings are shut out to the
influences of​_maya - nau dar thaakay, _and the wandering mind gets controlled -​
_dhaavat rahaa-ay,​_​one settles down in the real home - _nej ghar vaasa paa-ay, _at the
feet of the Lord. This is the _dasva(n) dar.
Nau dar thaakay dhaavat rahaa-ay. Dasvai(n) nej ghar vaasa paa-ay. _P.124​

When the fourth stage is attained the​_dasva(n) duar _opens and the devotee
enjoys spiritual bliss. The mind does not wander at all. It is as though the pendulum of
a clock becomes still. This is what is called _sehaj. _Bhagat Ravedas talks about what is
experienced at this stage. It is as though one resides in a place – _thau –_where there is
no worry – _andoh. _There is no _dukh _at all and _sukh _prevails everywhere. There are no
frustrations – _tasvees, _no desire to own property – _maal, _and no tax _–kheraaj – _to
pay. There is no fear –_khauf – _of any sin – _khata, _and there is no fear of losing
anything – _na tars jwaal. _This peaceful reign – _paatsahi – _is for _ever – kaem daem._​_
_All are equal and there is no _dom saym – _second or third class. All are rich – _gani, _and 
contented –​_maamoor. _Bhagat Ji describes this as _baygam pura – _a town where there
is no _gam – _worry.​
_Baygampura sehar ko nau. Dookh andoh nahi teh thau. Na tasvees kheraaj na
maal. Khauf na khata na tars jwaal…………… Kaem daem sada paatsahi. Dom na​_​​
Bhagat Kabir says that in this stage of mind there is neither any desire to live
nor is there fear of death. There are no feelings of​_dukh sukh – na dukh sukh beapai._​_
_There is absolute stillness –​_sunn smaadh, _with thoughts focussed on the Lord only.
There are no thoughts of mine thine – _do-oo teh nahi. _This exalted state of mind is
unique – _nerari – _in that no comparison is possible and it is beyond description –​
_akath katha.
Jeevan merat na dukh sukh beapai sunn smaadh do-oo teh nahi. Sehaj ki akath
katha hai nerari.​_​P.333​

Guru Amar Das refers to​_dasva(n) duar _as _dasva(n) akaas, akaas _meaning
sky. According to Guru Ji a _gurmukh _experiences _sehaj _and his mind is always in the​
_dasva(n) duar​_​stage.He is not influenced by _maya moh _and does not fall into _maya
moh _sleep – _oongh. _Hunger – _bhukh – _for _maya _does not bother him. He experiences
spiritual bliss – _sukh vaas – _because of the presence of the spiritual life giving _amret
naam _in the mind. _Dukh sukh _does not affect him owing to the spiritual enlightenment
in his _aatma – aatam Ram pargaas.
Gurmukh antar sehaj hai man carea dasvai(n) akaas. Tethai oongh na bhukh
hai Har amret naam sukh vaas. Nanak dukh sukh veapat nahi jethai aatam Ram
pargaas. _P.1414​

This​_sehaj _state can only be attained by those on whom the Lord showers His
grace –_mehar. _He, who is thus blessed, retains the guru’s teachings via the s_abad _in
his heart - _gur ka sabad red antar dhaarai. _He parts company with the _kaamadaks –
panc jana seu(n) sang nevarai, _and keeps his ten _endrays under control – das endri
kar raakhai vaas. _In this way enlightenment develops in his _aatma. _Guru Arjan Dev
says:​
_Gur ka sabad red antar dhaarai. Panc jana seu(n) sang nevarai. Das endri
kar raakhai vaas. Ta(n) kai aatmai hoe pargaas.​_​P.236​
Guru Ji mentions that the person who has attained the​_sehaj _state and sings the
praises of the Lord in the company of _saadh sang _feels as though loud music from
five different types of musical instruments – _panc sabad – _is continuously going on
within him. Such _gurmukhs _enjoy bliss – _sookh anand, _and they attain the _sehaj _state.
They remain free of ailments and anxieties – _rog sog, _and do not suffer transmigration​
– _nahi janm marn 
Panc sabad teh pooran naad. Anhad baajay acraj besmaad ………Sookh sehaj
anand bhavn. Saadh sang bais gun gaaveh teh rog sog nahi janm marn.​​P.888​

This music, referred to in the foregoing quote, is not played by anyone and as
it goes on continuously it is described as​anhad dhuni. It produces a surprisingly
strange state of mind – acraj besmaad. The gurmukh who hears this sound – naad –​
hears it as​pooran naad i.e. loud and clear. Guru Nanak Dev in Japji, hymn No.29,
mentions that this naad is present in all bodies – ghat ghat vaajeh naad.​
This​naad can be regarded as divine music or eternal song which cannot be
heard by manmukhs because of haumai. But those who have attained the cautha pad​
can hear it clearly. Guru Arjan Dev in the following quote says that His mind has
been won over by this​anhad dhuni which has extraordinary tastes - acaraj / acraj
swaad.
Anhad dhuni mayra man moheo acaraj ta(n) kay swaad. P.1226​

Guru Amar Das describes the​sehaj state of mind as something which is
desired by all – sehjai no sabh locdi, but it cannot be attained without the guru - ben
gur paea na jae.
Sehjai no sabh locdi ben gur paea na jae. P.68​

In the same​sabad Guru Ji goes on to say that only by attending
wholeheartedly to the sabad, sehaj is realized – sabday hi tay sehaj oopjai, and the
ever lasting Lord is attained – Har paea sac soe. It is in this sehaj state that one
acquires peace of mind and spiritual happiness – sukh saant hoe. The tongue – rasna
– savours the taste of naam – Har ras khae. Without sehaj life is worthless – jeevan
baad.
Sabdai hi tay sehaj oopjai Har paea sac soe ……… sehjai hi tay sukh saant
hoe, ben sehjai jeevan baad………Sabday hi Har man vasai rasna Har ras khae. P.68​
Continuing the discussion of​sehaj Guru Ji adds that by seeking the saran of
the Sac Lord and with the attainment of sehaj, fear of death is destroyed – kaal
vedarea.
Sehjay kaal vedarea sac sarna-ee pae. P.68​

Guru ji goes on to point out that​sehaj cannot come about by getting engrossed
with activities pertaining to traigun maya – trehu guna vec sehaj na pa-ee-ai. One
goes astray – bharm bhulae – with no end to repeated births and deaths.​
Trehu guna vec sehaj na pa-ee-ai trai gun bharm bhulae.​​P.68​
iqRhu guxw ivic shju n pweIAY qRY gux Brim Bulwie Ò​Guru Ji further mentions that without​sehaj there is darkness – gubaar –​
caused by attachment to​maya and everyone acts blindly – sabh andh hai.
Ben sehjai sabh andh hai maya moh gubaar. P.68​
ibnu shjY sBu AMDu hY mwieAw mohu gubwru Ò​In another part of​Gurbani Guru Ji says that the minds of those people who
constantly dwell on the naam – naam ratay, become beautiful – ranglay. They attain
the sehaj state of mind because of the Lord’s bhagti. The bhagti colour is fast and​
never fades – rang na utrai. 
Nanak naam ratay say ranglay gur kai sehaj subhae. Bhagti rang na utrai
sehjay rahai smae.​​P.85​

According to Guru Ji​sehaj avastha and love for the Lord bring about a shower
of the amret naam jal within an individual.​
Amret varsai sehaj subhae.​​P.119​

In this connection it is worth noting Guru Nanak Dev’s remarks that the noble​naam​​essence – Har naam rasaen - is attained as a result of acquiring sehaj avastha,​
i.e.​sehaj aath.
Har naam rasaen sehaj aath. P.1170​

On attainment of the​sehaj stage the mind settles in the nej ghar – the real
home. The mind turns its attention inwards and discovers the abode of the Lord within
oneself. At this stage the mind does not wander , it enjoys spiritual bliss, and there is
no more fayra – transmigration. Guru Arjan Dev says:​
Nej ghar mehal paavuh sukh sehjay bahur na hoego fayra.​​P.13​
inj Gir mhlu pwvhu suK shjy bhuir n hoiego Pyrw Ò​Guru Nanak Dev’s​sac khand stage described in the 37th hymn of Jap Ji is the
same as the cautha pad, sehaj avastha, nej ghar and baygampura.​
Guru Nanak Dev in​Sedh Ghost Bani says that it is extremely difficult to
escape the influences of trai gun maya. Eliminating their grip on us is like chewing
iron –saar. But by acquiring the saran of the Guru and by following His teachings
implicitly, one can with the resultant illumination in the heart from the Lord’s light –​
jot,​​succeed in this seemingly impossible task. The jot is nerantar - without a break /
gap. It exists everywhere without any gap or break.​
Gurmukh jot nerantar pa-ee. Trai gun maytay kha-ee-ai saar.​​P.940​

Talking about overcoming the effects of​maya Guru Arjan Dev says that the
person who is blessed by the Lord with spiritual strength –bal – withstands the
onslaughts of maya and its kaamadak warriors. As a result of the Lord's kerpa the
spiritual strength that has been bestowed by the Lord can now be maintained and
sustained whatever the temptations. That which earlier could not be tolerated and
sustained - ajar - now becomes jar / jarai. The Lord through His kerpa enables one to
bear it - jaraa-ay aap. Such a person is regarded as highly srayshat – noble. He is​
poora pardhaan​​and earns respect.​
So poora pardhaan jes no bal dharai. Jeseh jaraa-ay aap soi ajar jarai.​​P.958​

Attacks of​maya in the form of vekaars and various temptations are difficult
to resist because of a weak spiritual situation. He who succumbs to them suffers​
aatmak maut.​​But the Lord’s kerpa and the guru’s saran changes this situation. The
mind becomes strong enough to resist these attacks and succeeds in keeping the nine​
endrays – nau kul –​​in control, and prevents them from falling into vekaars. What was​
ajar​​earlier now becomes jar / jarai i.e. the weak spiritual situation which could not
resist vekaars earlier now acquires strength to prevent the mind from succumbing to
their temptations.​
Ajar jarai ta(n) nau kul bandh.​​P.1289​
 
The word​jar also means old age and the Lord is referred to as ajar because
He is not affected by old age. In the following quote by Guru Arjan Dev the word​
jarai / jarn​​means to retain in the heart. The person on whom the Lord Beethal​
showers His blessings succeeds in​Har Har ajar jarn – succeeds in retaining in his
heart the ajar Lord’s naam.
Ja(n) kau bha-eo kerpaal beethla ten Har Har ajar jarn. P.1206​

Guru Nanak Dev suggests that one should perform​ardaas requesting the Lord​
Jag Jeevan​​to shower His mehar / kerpa on the individual – nadar karuh. This would
enable the devotee to get across the world ocean – nestaara.
Nanak sehaj melay Jag Jeevan nadar karuh nestaara. P.489​
 
..................................................................................................

The End of Instruction is the Beginning of Practice.

Begum
_


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## harpreetsingh (Sep 4, 2007)

Respected Friend,

Your appreciation Of SGGS and scripture is vast and you can take an overall macro view of the Granth Sahib. But we are at micro level i.e. understanding the meaning of each line at a time and then proceeding ahead. You must have started appreciating Gurbani for quite some time. I have taken up the study only recently and hence some lines appear confusing to me. The area of conflict and confusion is always in relation to namm ,shabad or akhar. 

After going thru. some posts it appears that these are synonyms. But on referring back to the SGGS ji things sometime are not clear. I shall quote various posts of this site to support that I have stated above. It would be very kind of you if you could continue to guide me/us thru. this thread so far as naam/shabad/word of shabad/akhar is concerned.

The following line is from Japji sahib:

AKrI nwmu AKrI swlwh ] (4-7, jpu, mÚ 1)
From the Word, comes the Naam; from the Word, comes Your Praise.

Doubt No.1

1.What should we imply from the above line.?
and Is Naam not the Name of the almighty? 
Doubt No.2
Can we not take 'waheguru' as a universal indica of 'naam' and do its jaap or simran. 

The following line makes it look that naam is bestowed upon as as a blessing by the Guru. 
Doubt No.3
Who is Guru in the context of the current discussion? Is SGGS ji or the Almighty ?

iniq Aihinis hir pRBu syivAw sqguir dIAw nwmu ]2] (21-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
Day and night, continually serve the Lord God; the True Guru has given the Naam. ||2||

Would be garteful if things are explained in terms of teaching a person who is beginning to learn the Bani.

I shall keep on posting my doubts as and when I have.

Regards to all.


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## Astroboy (Sep 4, 2007)

*Stanza XIX*​
*Countless Thy names and countless Thy places;*
*Unapproachable and inaccessible Thy innumerable* 
*heavenly plateaux;* 
*Even by the word countless,(1) we fail to describe Thee;* 
*By words we describe Thee and by words we praise Thee.* 
*By words, we acquire Divine knowledge, and in words are sung* 
*Thy hymns and attributes;* 
*It is words we employ in speech and in writing;* 
*In them is our fate ordained;* 
*But He who ordains is above such writ.* 
*As Thou ordaineth, so do we receive.* 
*Thou art immanent in all;* 
*And nothing is where Thy Word is not.* 
*What power have I to conceive of Thy wonderful nature?* 
*Too poor, am I, to make an offering of my life to Thee.* 
*Whatever pleaseth Thee is good;* 
*Thou art forevermore;* *O Formless One !*

(1). The words count and countless are of little consequence for the Almighty. He who is immanent in everything and is the very life of the creation itself, knows every particle thereof. 
iniq Aihinis hir pRBu syivAw sqguir dIAw nwmu ]2] (21-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
What is this tuk, kindly provide Romanised version. My server does not pick up Gurmukhi.


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## Astroboy (Sep 4, 2007)

Communion with the Word--the Eternal Music--is possible with a life of Simran, or the constant remembrance of the Lord. It does not mean mere mechanical muttering, which is discarded by the Master. Kabir affirmed: 

 
While the rosary moves in the hand and the. tongue wags in the mouth, 
  the mind is concentrated on external effects. This is no Simran.

Again: 

Once the rosary quarrelled with me, saying: Why, O man, dost thou 
  moveth me round and round? Just turn the bead of thy mind 
  and I will introduce thee to the all-pervading God.

    Thou shalt not take the name of God in vain, but take it with some purpose in view. The constant remembrance of the Lord is but another form of love. Whom you love dearly--you think of always. This constant thought of the Lord is what the Master exhorts all to do, for as you think so you become. 

Simran is the remembrance of the Lord done mentally (with the tongue of thought), with the heart filled with devoted love, concentrating on a particular center in the body. It is an act of centering the self and occupying the mind with the constant idea of the Lord, casting out all ideas of the objective world. The constant dwelling on our environments, has so taken hold of the mind that we cannot even for a single moment drive away the thoughts of external objects. From infancy onwards, this practice has been going on in full swing, and it has now grown into a regular habit of our lives.

    Habit is said to be the second nature of man. It is at this stage rather difficult to extricate the mind from external objects. The more you try to do so, the more it becomes restive and the more it runs out into the mundane affairs of life. It has formed a strong alliance with all that is external. It is always thinking of what is foreign and exotic and is carried away by the glamour and fascination of the world. Whatever habit we have formed, we can unmake it as well. The thoughts of the world and of all that is worldly is the source of bondage to outside things. 

    The Master too uses the same means inwardly as does Mother Nature to bind us to the external world, and makes the mind purely one-pointed. The constant thought of the Lord, by mentally dwelling on the Holy Naam, brings the mind back from the world and holds it to one place. At the outset it is difficult to concentrate as it takes time to bring the mind under control. But there is nothing to be disheartened about. Failures are stepping stones to success. Where there is a will, there is a way. We must stick to the process until the mind is channeled. The glory of Naam always reminds one of the highest ideal of human life. It soothes the mind and prevents it from going astray.     The constant remembrance of Naam withdraws the mind from the outer objects and concentrates it on the Divine and the supernatural. It makes the mind self-centred so that desires fail to draw it out and the siren songs of the world lose all their magic attraction. This part of the practice is technically termed by Guru Nanak as Simran. Unless the soul current is withdrawn completely at one focus, further ascent of the soul is not possible. This process of withdrawal from the body is the one thing that is absolutely necessary in spiritual advancement, It is achieved through the simple preliminary method of Simran. 

In Simran lie the seeds that help in the development of the soul. Nanak reveals this secret in the concluding portions of stanzas V, VI and XXIII, and at full length in stanza XXXIII of the Jap Ji. Fortunate indeed is the man who always revels in the blessings of Guru Nanak.


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## Astroboy (Sep 4, 2007)

The Spiritual Practice of Naam

            Truth never gets old nor rusty
                                                GURU AMAR DAS

     It is so natural and so easy that one can take to it as a
matter of routine. It involves no intricacies and mysterious
practices  and  one  can  safely go ahead on the path with
ease and comfort. It is a Grand Trunk Road to God. One
may  with  a  little  labor  gather  a  rich harvest. What the
Rishis  of  old  achieved  with  much labor extending over
centuries can now  be gained easily with sincere devotion
from day to day,  without  any physical penances of tortu-
ous practices.

     To start with one has to take care to devote time regu-
larly at fixed hours in some solitary place.  But as soon as
inner experience becomes a regular feature with the aspir-
ant, then all restrictions as to time  and place drop off and
one  can hear  the Divine Symphony  all day long,  even in
the  midst  of  most  strenuous work, without any effort on
his part.

        Sleeping or awake, sitting or standing, Kabir remains
              ever at his post within.
                                               KABIR


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## Astroboy (Sep 4, 2007)

God's Will  is indescribable  and the  question arises - how 
may  we  become  one  with  it?   Guru  Nanak replies that the 
best  we  can  do  is  to sit  in  meditation  at  the early hour of 
dawn  and  commune  with His Holy Word.   Our actions and 
our efforts count no doubt - it is through them that we achieve 
human birth - but, says Nanak,  we cannot earn salvation, for 
it must  come as the gift  of His Grace.  Guru  Nanak,   in  the  
Jap Ji,   turns  time  and  again  to this paradox, that  salvation  
is  only  possible  through  His Grace,   yet  we  need effort to 
achieve this salvation.

This quote is the commentary just before Stanza IV of the
Jap Ji,



Stanza VI
 
If I may only please Him, 'tis pilgrimage enough; 
If not, nothing-no rites or toils-avails; 
Whichever way I look, I find that in His creation, 
None has won salvation without His Grace-regardless of Karmas.(1) 
You can discover untold Spiritual riches within yourself; 
If you but abide by the teachings of your Master.(2) 
My Master has taught me one lesson: 
He is the Lord of everything, may I never forget Him.
1. Karma: Action. This term in Indian thought refers to a very complex Hindu doctrine. It emphasizes belief that our present actions determine our future, not only in this life but in the life to come. There is nothing like chance. Man works according to a chain of cause and effect. Though spiritual salvation is not possible without Grace, yet, says Nanak, we must deserve that Grace by our Karmas or actions in this life or the lives preceding. 
2. Guru: This term makes its appearance frequently in the Jap Ji and indeed is freely used in all the Sikh scriptures. It stands for Bani (Bani Guru Guru Hai Bani...) and whenever Nanak uses it, He does not mean any person who sets up as a spiritual guide, but the Inner Sound Current or Anhad Naad which is the essence of God.


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## harpreetsingh (Sep 8, 2007)

*Dear begum ji* I am giving below the ‘*Tuk*’ as requested by you in all possible mamer. I hope you can make out from this the Gurmukhi Line/tuk.

iniq Aihinis hir pRBu syivAw sqguir dIAw nwmu ]2] (21-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
nit ahinis har parabh sayvi-aa satgur dee-aa naam. ||2||
Day and night, continually serve the Lord God; the True Guru has given the Naam. |2||

Translataion and commentary By Sahib Singh ji. In Gurmukhi.
[ as per my browser there is no option even in 'edit' mode to convert the following back to Gurmukhi. Inconvenience regretted.Mr. Aman Singh ji may like to do the needful or the moderator may help to convert the following into Gurmukhi.] 
hy mn! prmwqmw dw nwm idn rwq jipAw kr [ gurU dI srn pY ky hrI-nwm Dn dI kdr smJ [ swD sMgiq ivc iml ky hrI nwm nwl sWJ pw, swry Awqmk Awnµd pRwpq ho jwxgy [ (pr ijs nUµ) siqgurU ny nwm dI dwiq b^SI, aus ny sdw idn rwq hrI pRBU dw ismrn kIqw hY [2[

*Approximate English Translation of above done by me*

For your benefit I have translated the above as follows.There may be some minor differences but substance is the same.
One should Remember[ Jap] HIS Naam day and night. [Understand the significance of the Naam by being at the feet of the The Guru. Be in the company of the Holy sangat and understand the naam and your will be be in bliss.] But to whomThe True guru has bestowed the gift of Naam he has always remembered[ simran] the Lord [ Hari Prabhu]

*My comments on Translation and commentary*

The above is not a verabtim translation. Sh Sahib singh ji has added may things in this . The underlined portion in the above are the comments of Sh Sahib singh ji. It may be or may not be the only interpretation.
*The question being asked by me*The question that is being posed to the sangat is that the above translation does not appear to be correct or in line with my way of thinking.

The simple translation as is given in the Granth Sahib ji [as above] is correct and is i.e given above and quoted once again.
_Day and night, continually serve the Lord God; the True Guru has given the Naam. |2|_|
*Unresolved Question:*
*Who would bless us with the Gift of Naam.?*
I would ,rightly ,presume that for us guru and satguro is Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. As nothing else can be. We dont have living persons as Guru. 

It can be ‘Bani’ as well as ‘Bani’ is ‘Nirankaar’. 
In any case SGGS ji is ‘Sabad Guru’ and hence it is Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that would do the same. Is it so?

If yes, then what is Naam as per the SGGS ji? 
Is it 

A]Mool Mantra or 
B]Guru Mantra or
C] BeejMantra or 
D]Something else .

For the time being I would presume that the only option left with me is now to presume that this Naam would be the same as is given by the Panj Pearey at the time of Baptisation.
_Or _
simply Waheguru/Ram/Rahim/ Shiva/ Allah or satnam/or even anything that is reflective of God to me. it need not be any thing fixed as nothing has been prescribed.

May kindly opine.


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## harpreetsingh (Sep 8, 2007)

I am not able to edit this. I am leaving the post as it is.
inconvenience regretted.


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## Astroboy (Sep 8, 2007)

Coming directly to the point:
What is Naam and Shabd ?

*Yogi Bhajan's quotes:-*

The patterns of the Shabd Guru combine atoms of information in the smallest sound units to release the inner energy of *awareness* needed to guide the brain and mind through this wave of change.

We need to develop a new habit of *awareness*. We must learn an inner technology to base the identity of our Self in the Infinite.

Where do the patterns of the Shabd Guru come from? They exist from the *beginning* of creation. They are the tides and rhythms of the movement of the creative pulse of Infinite consciousness. They vibrate in all things continually.

These sounds and shabds are perfect to share with everyone openly without special precautions or restrictions. One student asked if he had to be initiated. He had received a mantra from some group as part of meditation training. I said no. These sounds are universal and based on the full use of your brain's potential. It is already yours. It is in your cells. The person who uses them and has the experience is the person who it belongs to. It is not about any religion or group. It is the science of sound for personal experience and development. This is very important. Repeating the Primal sounds captured in the Shabd Guru is really about listening. It is *listening* with wide open ears and full attention. It is really whole brain listening. It is not concentrating with a singular but robotic focus on the sounds.

The trick is that the DNA has captured a compact code of basic units that holds the information of a pulse of the *creativity* of life. Exactly so the Sri Guru Granth Sahib has captured a compact quantum code of sound, structured in rhythm, that holds the information of the pulse of the creativity of Consciousness and God.



*Quotes from Gurbani :*


(1) O Nanak! through the favor of the Guru, we were saved and the ego was consumed in communion with the Shabd (Word). --Wadhans War M.3 

(2) In egoism, the peoples of the world are being consumed--they go round the endless cycle of births and deaths. The ignorant (those attached to the cringing nature of the mind), do not realize the Shabd. They will go to the other world as dishonoured. --Siri Rag M.3 

(3) The whole world is going astray in the egoistic assertion of I-ness. Without the Shabd (Word), there can be no release from the ego. O Nanak, by communion with the Naam, the ego is effaced and oneness with the True Lord is achieved. --Asa M.3 

(4) In misery and pleasure, the whole world is stuck fast. All their doings are directed by assertion of egotism. Without the Shabd (Word), superstition cannot be ended, and the ego cannot be lost. --Siri Rag M.3 

(5) All desires and attachments get singed by the Shabd. A Gurmukh finds the Heavenly Light within. --Ramkali M.1 

True renunciation within comes through communion with Shabd alone. Nature with all her evanescent charms ceases to have attraction for the renouncer. By renouncing everything, one penetrates into the all-pervading spirit. His attachment to the environments is done away with and his bondage to matter is ended. Thus, no more births and deaths await him. Here-after the life of the senses and the glamour of the world fascinates him not, on his way to the Lord. 

The Master says: 
By saturation with the true Shabd (Word), man truly renounces the ' World' and his coming and going is ended. --Maru M.3

Click here > Main Andhle Ki Tek

Translation : mai anDhulay kee tayk tayraa naam khundkaaraa



*My personal opinion ?*

Naam and Shabad are synonyms. Anhad Naad is heard from within yourself. One sure way to hear this anhad naad is : to do Parkash and Smapti of SGGS for as long as you can. When you place SGGS on your head, while performing this 'ritual', you will hear the inner sound current loud and clear. All you have to do is pay attention when Guru Ji (some call it paper guru) is resting on your head.

After you have removed SGGS from your head, the sound becomes fainter but it remains there. It never went away, not yesterday, and never will.
Our ego is so strong that we never realised its omni-presence, omni-potence and omni-science. It is the link with our Creator. 

Thousand Apologies, that I couldn't answer your questions. I am not a giani and your questions are getting tougher on every new post.


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## harpreetsingh (Sep 8, 2007)

Thank you once again Sir for providing useful information and guidance as above.Your posts are really nice.

Thanks and regards.


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## harpreetsingh (Sep 9, 2007)

I give below a reply received from the administrator of a very popular Sikhi Site. I am sharing the information about Naam in very general nature.

Quote
***********************************************
Many thanks for visiting the site.

You are right, Naam is very important as a Sikh. It is the meditation of Gods name.
You first have to clean out your mind. This is done by sitting in a quite place and concentrating on  nothing.

Which is harder then one thinks. Every time a thought appears in the mind it has to be pushed away.

Once you can concentrate on nothingness then you start to repeat the Name. This can be done out aloud first 
and as you get used to it you will start whispering it, in time you will just mime it, and ultimately you will repeat it
in the mind, but always without any other thought coming in the mind.

So, what is the Name ?   It can be Waheguru, it can be Satnaam Waheguru, Ekoan Kaar, it can be Raam, Raheem,
Allah or even Jehova. The point is, you are remembering the one God, your father.  I would say Shiva, Brahma, Vishnu are created by Akaal Purkh so ultimately you can only attain that level that they are and could not go any further.

Please ask what you like, however I am no authority, I can only answer with the little knowledge Akaal Purkh has blessed me.

**********************************************
Unquote


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## Astroboy (Sep 13, 2007)

*[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]“Amrit Bani (Gurbani) was the Guru from the very beginning. Sri Guru Nanak Sahib illuminated the world through Gurbani. The same divine Jot continued the process of illumination through Gurbani in the luminous form of Sri Guru Angad Sahib. Sri Guru Nanak Sahib continued the divine process through Sri Guru Amar Das Ji and so on. Illumination continues unabated through the same Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib. For Gurmukhs, the eternal illumination is flowing straight from the holy lips of Jot Roop Har Guru Nanak whereas others only perceive a holy book in front. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is 'JAAGDI JOT', LIVING SRI GURU NANAK SAHIB.”[/FONT]*




_[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]said Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj[/FONT]_


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## harpreetsingh (Sep 25, 2007)

Respected Begum ji,
Very many thanks for the nice post as usual. 
Coming back to the original question as to what should be ;faith' and dharma' within the context , I have to state as follows.

'Faith' would mean that we should have faith that HE is SaT and our 'dharma' is to be woth HIm and merge into HIM. 

How it is to be done may be known to many of my friends but for me it still is a mystery. May be I lack that kind of intellect and would always be receptive to all the guidance that the Sangat has to provide.

I am within the periphery of finding as to the meaning of Guru as well. Many times it is felt that term 'Guru' is beyond our 'sabad guru'. Kindly opine. 


Regards.
Nhul chuk mauf


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## spnadmin (Sep 25, 2007)

Harpreetsingh ji

This last set of comments between you and Begum ji are really nice. You respect one another and it shows. A conversation happens when each partner thinks about what the other has said and responds in a thoughtful way, and in a way that takes the ideas shared to the next level.

A rare phenomenon in any context of shared speech today.

* To change your fonts to Gurbani, select Edit Post, and then on the next screen select Go Advanced. Your current comment will appear at the top of the next screen against a blue background. At the bottom of that same screen will be the same comment in plain text in the Message window. 

Highlight the lines you want to change. You will notice in the toolbar that there is now something new - a Font icon or button with a little arrow. If you click on the arrow a number of Gurbani font choices will appear. Select the one you want and the font will change. When you are finished, select Save.* 

Let me know if this was helpful. If you want I can go in and edit for you.


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## Astroboy (Sep 25, 2007)

Pyare Harpreet Singh Ji and aad002 Penji,

It is no co-incident that people with like minds find each other's views interesting and joyful. I am only a humble servant of the Lord who is also working through the maze of duality and trying to rise above this stage because according to the various quotes of Gurbani (Guru's written knowledge), once we rise above the consciousness of applied duality in our daily lives, the SAT will manifest. SAT is already here and now but the veil of duality is still thick. 

Many use the various devotional ways to see beyond this veil of Maya.
Here are some of the ways suggested. 

A little hint on Guru. Guru is not a physical form. 
We call Nanak the Guru, but Nanak never called himself a Guru. Nanak's bani (written word) points to SAT Guru (God). 
If you read the sakhi of Koda Rakhshas, he had seen the physical form of Guru Nanak, but he did not change his evil ways just by seeing Guru Nanak's physical. He only changed after listening to Guru Nanak's wisdom. Another sakhi about Sajjan Thug goes along the same lines. This is the same wisdom which is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. 

Two Aspects Of The Shabad 

Shabad-Surti Or Shabad-Consciousness 

Shabad-Kamaayee Or Practice 

The Process Of Shabad-Kamaayee 

Listening And Reading About The Divine Truth 

Perceiving Of The Truth 

Becoming One With What Has Been Perceived 

(Source: Realization Of The Shabad Or Naam)


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## Sikh80 (Oct 17, 2007)

respected Begum ji,
I am in agreement with the observations of the authors of this thread. The thread touches very important aspect of sikhism. Hence I am reviving this thread so that discussion can be made more meaningful.

It is true that as per Gurbani that we should meet HIM in our lifespan else we have wasted our lives. This has been stated in Sri Guru Granth sahib ji as well. The route of merger with is 'Naam' and that is received as a 'mehr' from HIMSELF who is our True Guru. In this context our SGGS will have a very limited role that it should provide us guidance to achieve this objective.


It is also in Gurbani that it is almost impossible to attain HIM. In that case we should always have recourse to the Almighty to guide us. Secondly , if someone has a doubt the meaning of Gurbani where should one go. There is not a single school that I am aware of, where one is explained the meaning of the various 'Tuks' of sabad guru. 

The term Guru has ,seemingly, different meanings but it is clear that in majority of places it seems that Gurbani is referring to the Almighty as Guru. We cannot have two Gurus.One will tend to take the instructions from Guru Granth sahib ji and then proceed further if one is capable of. Receiving Naam is ,supposedly, the objective of many of us. We may disagree on this. I submit this so that we can have a healthy discussion.


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## Astroboy (Oct 17, 2007)

Seeker07 Ji,

You said receiving Naam as an objective which is a disputable thing. I have to agree with you here. 

The way I understand, Naam is not a phrase or word like a mantra. 

What is Your understanding of Naam ?


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## Sikh80 (Oct 17, 2007)

Respected Sir,

Your answer is very diplomatically drafted.

However, I shall be frank with you. My mother in law visited me a few days back. She is an Amritdhari Lady and is very punctual in maintaing the Sikhi ways of Life. I had asked her what is Naam for ‘sikh’. She responded without any hesitation or delay. I would also fall in line and would state that ‘waheguru’ is the Naam for me. As on date,there is no reason for me to believe otherwise. 

‘Naam’ may not be a word . I should not know the answer to your question if the answer is other wise. After referring to Granth Sahib ji one may think that Naam is or may be a state of mind as it is present in every one of us. 

I am quoting few lines as follows:

nwmu AauKDu soeI jnu pwvY ] (179-4, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
He alone receives the panacea, the medicine of the Naam,
kir ikrpw ijsu Awip idvwvY ] (179-4, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
unto whom the Lord, in His Grace, bestows it.
The following lines are also helpful for deducing something called as /Naam’.

sB ikCu qyrw qUM krxYhwru ] (178-17, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
Everything is Yours; You are the Creator Lord.

AMqu nwhI ikCu pwrwvwru ] (178-17, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
You have no end or limitation.


dws Apny kau dIjY dwnu ] (178-17, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
Please give this gift to Your servant,

kbhU n ivsrY nwnk nwmu ]5]9]78] (178-18, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
that Nanak might never forget the Naam. ||5||9||78||


From the above lines I get some indication that Naam should be something that should not be forgotten and it is equivalent to the name of the Lord that has the energy present in it that is the insignia of the Lord Himself. Hence it cannot be a state of mind. 


nwmu AauKDu soeI jnu pwvY ] (179-4, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
[He alone receives the panacea, the medicine of the Naam,]


kir ikrpw ijsu Awip idvwvY ] (179-4, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
unto whom the Lord, in His Grace, bestows it.]

Again from the following ‘Tuks’

gurmqI Git cwnxw sbid imlY hir nwau ]2] (30-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
[Through the Guru's Teachings, the heart is illuminated. Through the Shabad, the Name of the Lord is received. |]


Following lines are quoted for reference:

nwmu inDwnu sd min vsY mhlI pwvY Qwau ]1] rhwau ] (30-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)

[The Treasure of the Naam abides forever within the mind, and one's place of rest is found in the Mansion of the Lord's Presence.]


As per the above ‘Naam ‘ is present in the mind and one has to realize this. As I do not have indepth knowledge of the bani , I do conclude that One has to realise the naam and that it should be either a state of mind or should be ‘akhar’ or some ‘sabad’ only.This may be in the form of cosmic energy that may be pervading in ‘etheric Akaash’ and we have to feel the vibes as this energy is energised by the Naam.

As per the following it should be something that should not be forgotten. 

nwnk gurmuiK nwmu iDAweIAY sic imlwvw hoie ]4]13]46] (31-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
[O Nanak, the Gurmukh meditates on the Naam, and is united with the True Lord. ]

Following line is also suggestive that Naam should be a word only or something like a feeling/state of mine that is beyond description e’g the taste of salt can best be explained by some word and hence we have to take the help of some words to explain the concept of Naam else we cannot discuss about this. 

AMimRqu swcw nwmu hY khxw kCU n jwie ] (33-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)

[The True Name is the Ambrosial Nectar; no one can describe it.]

It is given or realised if He bestows His grace.

Awpy dyie q pweIAY horu krxw ikCU n jwie ] (33-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
[He Himself gives, and then we receive. Nothing else can be done.]


I think., Sir, that I have tried to answer you honestly. Would be very grateful if you could share your point of view. I fail to go beyond this because of limited knowledge. 

Regards.


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## Sikh80 (Oct 17, 2007)

Respected Begum ji,
The 'Naam' is generally not discussed on the forums. However, as we have started this let us take it to some logical end that we derive the benefit. It is fully appreciated that you may have entirely different point of view But that you should explain. We are here to not to fight .Rather we are sharing for mutual benefit. There is nothing right or wrong in Dharma as it is not a perfected branch or science. We are discussing something that would qualify for 'metaphysical'. Kindly do not make me refer some other web-sites.The essence is lost in this process.
I give below the 'quotes' of SGGS ji for your kind perusal.

jo n sunih jsu prmwnµdw ] (188-7, gauVI, mÚ 5)
Those who do not listen to the Praises of the Lord of supreme bliss,
psu pMKI iqRgd join qy mMdw ]3] (188-8, gauVI, mÚ 5)
are worse off than beasts, birds or creeping creatures. ||3||
khu nwnk guir mMqRü idRVwieAw ] (188-8, gauVI, mÚ 5)
Says Nanak, the GurMantra has been implanted within me;
kyvl nwmu ird mwih smwieAw ]4]42]111] (188-8, gauVI, mÚ 5)
the Name alone is contained within my heart. 

The above clearly contains the term like Guru Mantra and Naam that in translation has been stated to be Name. I am not in agreement with this translation as well. 
What is your take on this.


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## Astroboy (Oct 18, 2007)

Seeker07 Ji,

I thank you for giving me and others an opportunity to involve ourselves on the finer points of Sikhism. It is a learning process for me. My style of answer is often an indirect approach because most questions yearn for fulfilling the thirst which is within. You may enquire about Shabad, Naad, Naam, Mantar, Gurmantar, Gurparsad, Guru, True Guru or Satguru - they are all going to lead you to the same source; *the fountain of amrit within*. You might be disappointed by my answers or they might lead you to ask more questions. So long as you look on the outside of yourself for the answers, you are definitely going to be dissappointed. 

Irrespective of caste, creed, sex, descendency; all individuals come into this world from the mother's womb by the union of sperm and ovum.
Kabir while addressing a high caste priest, told him: "O Brahman, should you claim high birth and on that account special privileges, you ought to have been born in a way different from that of the rest."

Spirituality is really a universal truth rather than religious. Therefore, all wisdom from the various religious scriptures should have a common goal which is that of a Godly nature.

God cannot be realised outside oneself, even in the holy places of worship, no matter what their denomination might be. To realise Him, one has to enter into the laboratory of the human body which in the truest sense of the word is the temple of God. Real worship and devotion are purely internal and mental processes, unconnected with and independent of any and everything outside the human frame. All that is required is purity of mind. With an ethical background, one can worship God anywhere under the blue sky, for the whole world is a vast temple of God, and there is no place without Him, including the specific places of worship. In fact, wheresoever devotion kneels in humility, that place becomes sanctified.


More Later.


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## Sikh80 (Oct 18, 2007)

Respected Sir,

Have gone thru. your post very carefully. I am not likely to be disappointed by your answers as this is the area which not many authors have covered in detail. Infact, there is no adequate literature available on this subject and many preachers have their own view points.

I am totally ignorant so far as this aspect of Naam/shabad/naad /sound current and obviously includes The explanation of the term Guru that you have very clearly stated in the above post. Entire Sikhi and Bani is only about a good human being and obtaining 'the Jewel' within or wherever it should be. 

 These terms are of immense significance for the community of sikhs as a whole and would be of interest to all the visitor of the site. 

It is true that you would be required to answer some questions of mine that may appear irrelevant when asked in future posts of mine. Kindly forgive me for this. But I have a strong urge to explore as to how to reach that 'jewel' that is , even as per gurbani, within all of us. 

We should be very free and frank and should not answer in indirect method or using a language that may lead to more than one meaning. In such a case the discussion becomes abstract. 

There are many articles on 'Naam' on this site. I have gone thru. some of them. None has cleared the concept of Naam. I would be grateful from the core of heart if you begin with your post and kindly bear with me for my impatience and ignorance.

Best Of Regards.


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## Astroboy (Oct 18, 2007)

Seeker07 Ji,

Let me start with some verse from Gurbani and other sources,


Sant Kabir says, "O Pandit, you and I cannot possibly agree in our conclusions, for you speak of things as you have read in sacred texts, while I speak what I have seen". 

Guru Nanak says,
"Nanak does not utter a single syllable of His own, except as He is moved from within".


Christ said, "I do nothing of myself; but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things".

What is Naam ?



In the Nad-bind Upanishad, we find,A yogin ought to sit in Sidha Asan, and adopting​Vaishnavi Mudra, should hear within him the "Sound"​coming from the right side. (Nad-bind Shalok 31)​
In the Muslim scriptures, It is variously described as Kalam-i-Ilahi (The Voice of God), Nida-i-Asmani (the Sound from Heaven), Ism-i-Azam (the Great Name), Saut-i-Sarmadi (the Intoxicating Sound), Saut-i-Nasira (the Sound Melodious), Kalam-i-Majid (the Great Commandment) and Kalam-i-Haq (the Voice of Truth) which can be heard inside, and It was taught as Sultan-ul-Azkar or the King of prayers.​
And listen to the call of Music coming from above.​
MAULANA RUMI​
The whole world is reverberating with Sound,​To listen to It thou must unseal thine inner ears,​Then shalt thou hear an Unending Music,​And that shall lead thee beyond the confines of death. SHAH NIAZ​
Drive away all skepticism from thy mind,​And listen to the strains of heavenly music,​And receive within thee the messages of God,​For these come only by holy communion with the self.​The Prophet declared that he heard the Voice of God,​And it fell on his ears as clearly as any other sound,​But God has sealed thy ears,​And so ye listen not to His Voice.​MAULANA RUMI​*Philosophical*: The Divine Name, Word or _Sabad_, as used by Guru Nanak, from the philosophical point of view, comes very close to the concept of the _Logos_ in the ancient European Philosophy. It has a great similarity with the doctrine of the _Logos_ as propounded by Philo Judaes, who lived in Alexandria in the first-half of first century B.C. and first-half of first century A.D. According to the doctrine of _Logos_, the Word is the creative, actively expressed and revelatory thought and Will of God which is at once distinguished and identified with Him. It is the immanent Rational Principle in the universe, and it is the active principle in all divine and esoteric knowledge. The _Logos_ is the Reality of all realities underlying the whole universe. It is the First Substance from which everything has its origin.​ 

*Theological*: The Divine Name, or _Sabad_, is identified with the presence of God which can be realized in one’s own consciousness. All spiritual expression of divine knowledge by the Gurus is called ‘_Sabad_’, or ‘_Bani_’. In practical, religious and mystical life, each prophet or Guru gave a word, or a formula of words, which not only describes the divine spirit but also, when used for practice in contemplation, was instrumental to the complete realization of the Divine presence. Therefore, from the theological point of view, according to Guru Nanak, there are two types of Names: Firstly, there are attributive names of the Supreme Reality, such as, Hari, Govind, Ram, Haq, Rahim, etc. Secondly, there are names that are brought to the world out of empirical studies, observation of nature, or experience of great prophets, such as, we find the Name "_OM_" in the Upanishads, ‘_Ahura Mazda_’ in the _Zend Avastha_, Tao of Lao Tzu, ‘Omkar’ and ‘WaheGuru’ by the Sikh Gurus. _Omkar _and _Waheguru_ are immensely evocative and highly esteemed in the Sikh scriptures.​ 


According to Guru Nanak, the Divine Name (_NAAM_), or the Word, which he also calls _Sabad_, is the Cause of the universe. It is the way of His expression. The phenomenal world is the attribute with which God is described. The attributes of God can be found only in an outward expression or manifestation in the external world. Besides, it is through these attributes that God manifests His creative activities in the world. Therefore everything of this world is an aspect of the Divine Name, or the Word, to which it owes its existence.​


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## Sikh80 (Oct 19, 2007)

Respected Begum ji.

Greetings to you and  Thanks for your elaborate reply.
I shall come to the point without any prolegomenon and shall be grateful for your guidance. 


*WORD/SABAD*


In this context it is state that the ‘word’ that you have stated should be ‘OM’ as it is supposedly the voice of the creator that was employed for creating the entire ‘Sargun’ creation. 


*OM and reference in Scriptures*


We have a reliable reference of ‘OM’ as it appears in Geeta . Geeta  is supposed to be containing the essence of the entire Vedas that were also the creation of The Lord Himself. It is also representative of the Tri Gunas.

This has been also confirmed by Gurbani as well. 

The method of uttering/chanting of OM is very lucidly stated in this Holy Book that sikhs have been prohibited to follow as per Rehat-Nama. I am not sure as to what was the position when the First Rehatnama would have been prescribed by the Guru sahibs when Rehat was introduced formally. 


*ONG and Sikhs*


The parallel word in Sikhi is stated to be ‘ONG’ .I do not have any scriptural reference.[ if any is available]. ‘ONG’ is stated to be derived from the OM . Hence the two words are not the same.


*Problem and reconciliation-1.*


*Can there be two words like OM and ONG that were employed by the Almighty for bringing the creation into being and setting the play in motion.? As per common sense there cannot be two words. It has to be one only. OM is more ancient than ONG.  It would be as per common understanding as well.*

*One would have to reconcile the above and a consensus should emerge as to the ‘word’ used for the purpose of the Creation. There is nothing that I can suggest as ONG is employed in Ek-Ong-kar as well. The problem can be sorted out if one believes in Vedas. The Sikh Rehat- nama as drafted by SGPC clearly prohibits the Vedas/Geeta for Sikhs.*

*Name of Lord and Naam*


While discussing Gurbani and going through it very carefully one finds that the term Like the ‘Name of Lord’ and ‘Naam’ have been used. The translators in their own wisdom have chosen to select 'Naam' or 'Name' while carrying out the translations.

 The former refers to ‘Waheguru’/Satnam/Ek-ong-kar while the latter refers to the term /’word’ like ONG. 
*Kindly correct me if it is wrong inference.*



*Problem and Reconciliation-2*


*2a. Waheguru*

Sikhs are to mediate and remember the Almighty uttering/chanting the Name of the lord/God . One may use any name   that has been  used in Jaap sahib ji or ‘waheguru’ or anything that is representative of the Almighty. One may even coin a new expression for oneself that suits one. The terms ‘_waheguru_’ and ‘_Allah-hu_’ brings in some element of  respective religion or have some secteran appeal. There is no direct reference or guidance in SGGS ji in this regard. I am not aware of this. I stand to be corrected if there is such a provision. However, we rely on ‘_waheguru –gurumantra hey_’ that is stated in _Vaaran __[Bhai Gurdas ji]. There is no inclusion in the SGGS ji._
_However, one need not go into any controversy and can remember HIM by any name that suits._

*2b. Naamdaan*

_There is similar term like ‘naam’ that refers to the ‘word’ as stated by you. The term for Sikhs is ‘ONG’. I would be very grateful if it is so and if that be the case then why should the Guru Saahibaan be addressing something like ‘Naamdaan’ if  Naam/’word’ is already known if one takes ONG into consideration. This term has been used daily by the Sikhs all over the world._

_What is the significance of Naam Daan in relation to Sikhs? _

*2b.1 Naam a Gift from God.*

_Why should it be that almost entire Granth sahib ji contains the reference to it as a gift from GOD and the precious jewel that one has to obtain from the God who will give it to the devotees as if it is something tangible. Kindly correct me. Things would be easier if there is some transparency in Sikhi literature. I can assure you, Sir, that none talks about this in this explicit manner._

_If it is a gift from God then what is the significance of the term ‘ONG’ that is so beautifully embraced in Ek-Ong-Kaar.?_

_If above is not correct,  kindly state and correct me as well._


*2b.2 Contemplation on Naam and significance*

*It is also in Gurbani that one should contemplate the ‘Naam’. What is the meaning of this. Should one contemplate on ’ONG’? I shall quote some ‘Tuks from SGGS ji in my next post after your goodself has replied and I have a confidence that I am correct in my various assumptions.*

*2b.3*

*What will happen if we keepon remembering HIM by the name of GOD and not through the ‘word’?*


*Problem-3*
*3.a.Bani*
As stated in one of your post Bani also means the same. I shall make two assumptions as follows and one question in *3b.*

Gurbani is to be stated that contains the spritual wisdom and guidance in SGGs ji.


The ‘word’ or ‘sound of this word’ has been stated to be ‘True Bani’ or Saachi Bani’. 


*3.b*
When we say ‘Bani nirankar Hi’ ,do we mean that ‘guru sabad’  i.e. Gurbani is Nirankar. Or the term ‘word’ like ONG is Nirankaar.

It is quite likely that I might have gone tangent to the usual meaning.I need not reiterate that I stand to be corrected and forgiven if I have caused any disrespect to anything or might have hurt someone in the process.

*Problem-4*
*Sabad/ Shabad*

At many places we have a reference of shabad in SGGS Ji. It has two meanings :

1. The 'word' as stated by you above.
2. The one , as is understood by sikhs, to mean the "Shabads' taken from SGGS ji/Sabad guru to eulogise the Creator and 
Creativity.

_One has to take out the contextual meaning.Am I correct.?_

I think we have covered the terms like 'Name of God'/Naam/NaamDaan/Sabad/Shabad/ True Bani/Gurbani.


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## Astroboy (Oct 19, 2007)

Using terms to express the Absolute is a never-ending story. There are various outer names of God; the Holy Naam, or Word, can be practised by all alike, without the agency of tongue or palate. It does not require adherence to the outward observances of social religions. This Word may be defined as the spirit-current which emanates from the One Being. It forms all the spiritual and material planes as It comes down, from plane to plane, reverberating in and out of all of them. As the lower planes are less subtle and more material than those above, the Word accordingly changes in sound as It comes down. Since It has to pass through five planes, It takes on five different sounds. These are five aspects of the one and the same Word. Guru Nanak deals with this at full length in *stanza XV of the Jap Ji:-* 

By practice of the Word, one finally attains salvation; 
By practice of the Word, one leads one's kith and kin 
as well to freedom; 
By practice of the Word, one saves not only himself 
but when he becomes an Adept, many others whom he guides; 
By practice of the Word, one freed from desires, escapes from 
the wheel of transmigration. 
O, great is the Power of the Word, 
But few there be that know it.

Other references from Gurbani about Naam are:-

Day and night, I am in communion with the Lord, with my mind fully convinced. The temple of my body has thus been beautified. The five Sounds of the limitless Music--the Word--are resounding. O, the Lord has entered my body. --Suhi M.1 

The five Sounds become audible through the instructions of the Gurmukh--the Personified Word. Great is the luck of him who hears Them. The source of Joy and Peace (Word), I see as pervading everywhere. Through the Word, the Lord made His appearance and became manifest. --Kanra M. 4 

The five Sounds of the limitless Music (Word) are resounding within me. I am attracted to Them, as the Sarang or the sea-bird is attracted by the sight of water. Thy bondsman, Kabir, thus glorifies in Thee, O Lord, the Unknowable and above all human ken. --Parbhati Kabir 

Word is the Guru. Soul is the disciple of the Word -- the melodious song. --Ramkali M. 1 


Many other references are available from SGGS.

begum


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## Sikh80 (Oct 19, 2007)

*Guru and God: An examination*


I had the opportunity to listen to Gyani Maskeen ji today at 7.30 p.m IST wherein he discussed the relationship between Guru and God. He had quoted many ‘Tuks’ from SGGS ji. I am not aware of those and hence have missed a few. I shall quote only part of these as per that I could retain. As the subject is of contemporary interest I am trying to re-produce that I could retain.

*Fact1.*

There is no difference between Guru and God. Guru is God and _vice versa_ is true and that there cannot be anything else. Both the Guru and God are ever present with us. Both have the same qualities i.e. they have transdental nature.

_Aad ant Eko Avtara soi Guru Samjhio Hamara._

*Fact2.*
Guru is not any intermediary between the human beings and the God as is ordinarily understood. He ,himself, is the God.

*Fact3.*
As per Guru–Bani also the following is of relevance.

so dru qyrw kyhw so Gru kyhw ijqu bih srb smwly ](8-14, Awsw, mÚ 1)
Where is That Door of Yours, and where is That Home, in which You sit and take care of all?

The above reference shows that door and Home are two different things but these are not so as the door belongs to the house as there cannot be the house without a door. The basic objective of Guru is to bring the one to the door of the God the Almighty and the rest would be taken care of by the God himself. The duty of the Guru is to bring the human being at the entrance of the house of the God. An ordinary human being is not capable of reaching the door of the God.

*Fact4*


Guru is not any physical object that one has to search for. Nor can one expect to find Him in this manner. He is an energy, a creative power full of creativity that human mind cannot gauge. His creativity is unfathomable. In any case God is not a person. Some Religion states that God is in the Seventh sky, this is not correct depiction. One can only come to know about a part of creative power and can experience the Truth, the SAT.

*Fact5*


If one admits that he is doing only if he is commanded to do and establish the Karma with some agency, it is not easily comprehended by the ordinary human mind as the person may be in direct touch with the God and would be acting under His command. He cited the example of Socrates and Baba Nanak. The Bedi’s of his time considered baba Nanak a fool. However, such a claim can be made by a single person out of millions [exact term used was out of crores and that would mean out of tens of millions]

*Fact6*



*As to who is Guru?*


Maskeen ji had quoted some couplet of Kabeer ji that I do not remember as it was fairly lengthy and I could not note it down. However in essence Kabeer sahib had stated that His Guru was Gyan /knowledge/revealation and enlightenment.[_ Maskeen ji used some couplet as well and that I do not remember]_

The fact that one can understand the nature and the creative power of the Almighty leads one to realize HIM and the mission of life is fulfilled. The fact that one can establish relationship with the creativity will lead to such enlightenment. This kind of knowledge will itself serve the purpose of a Guru.


_PS. _
I have tried to reproduce the above as per my understanding and the knowledge of English. There may be some difference in that what he stated exactly. I have to omit few things as I could not note.
Submitted for perusal of all the Sangat.

2. Respected Begum ji: 
I have gone thru the reply as posted by your goodself . I shall revert back and would request you to kindly forgive me if I overdo and please feel free if I cross my limits


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## Astroboy (Oct 19, 2007)

From your comments as above, here are a few points that come to mind:-

1. Guru Nanak has said, "...pay proper heed to the sowing and not to the harvesting, for the harvest will come of its own from the seeds sown. Guru Nanak has beautifully said: "It may be all very well to worry about events contrary to the Divine Plan, 
but what is destined will happen in spite of us..."

2. The practice of Naam is simple and natural. It involves no intricacies and mysterious practices and one can safely go ahead on the path with ease and comfort. What the Rishis of old achieved with much labor extending over centuries can now be gained easily with sincere devotion from day to day, without any physical penances of tortu-
ous practices.

Sleeping or awake, sitting or standing, 
Kabir remains ever at his mansion within.
KABIR


3. God's Will is indescribable and the question arises - how may we become one with it? Guru Nanak replies that the best we can do is to sit in meditation at the early hour of 
dawn and commune with His Holy Word. Our actions and our efforts count no doubt - it is through them that we achieve human birth - but, says Nanak, we cannot earn salvation, for it must come as the gift of His Grace. Guru Nanak, in the Jap Ji, 
turns time and again to this paradox, that salvation is only possible through His Grace, yet we need effort to achieve this salvation.

4. The whole of creation came into being through the Naam and isever sustained by It.

All this world you see is the Lord's image;
The Lord's image becomes apparent.

5. Make the Naam your companion. The Lord is All-Consciousness, and the *soul* is consciousness also, which when connected, becomes more conscious. Instead of this happening, it became connected and enmeshed with the lower expressions of matter,
thereby getting affected by all the impure things of life in this world.
When consciousness diminishes, what happens? 

6 We should receive the Bread of Life which is food for the soul. Food for the body is through eating and drinking, and food for the intellect is through reading, writing, and thinking. But, with awakenedness one learns to discriminate Truth from all untruth.

7 Naam is the Bread and Water of Life, the food for the soul - the cure for all ills, be they physical, mental, or mind ramifications. The soul is weak because we have not fed it. We only talk about the soul, but mere talking will not feed it. Can the stomach be filled by discussing various kinds of bread? If you are thirsty, will repeating the word "water" in all the world's languages quench your thirst?

8 You have to walk the path as explained by Guru Nanak in the Japji - 

eet rahe pat pava-riyan, chariye hoye ekees

.


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## Astroboy (Oct 19, 2007)

YouTube - ANHAD SHABAD & YOGA - SIKH RELIGION
YouTube - The Inner Analysis - SIKH RELIGION


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## Sikh80 (Oct 21, 2007)

From your comments as above, here are a few points that come to mind:-

1. Guru Nanak has said, "...pay proper heed to the sowing and not to the harvesting, for the harvest will come of its own from the seeds sown. Guru Nanak has beautifully said: "It may be all very well to worry about events contrary to the Divine Plan, but what is destined will happen in spite of us..."

2. The practice of Naam is simple and natural. 


3. God's Will is indescribable and the question arises - how may we become one with it? Guru Nanak replies that the best we can do is to sit in meditation at the early hour of 
dawn and commune with His Holy Word.

4. ..........

5. Make the Naam your companion. 
6
7 Naam is the Bread and Water of Life, the food for the soul - 
8 You have to walk the path as explained by Guru Nanak in the Japji 

eet rahe pat pava-riyan, chariye hoye ekees

==================================
Respected Sir,
I have quoted the above from your post.You have been kind as usual to explain the Naam and word. However, I have not full understanding due to lack of knowledge. Before I actually get involved in the process it would be very nice if you could amplify that you have stated above and that is put in the following words.

1. What do you mean when you say 'Practice word'. What should I be actually doing at this time.? Should I recite 'Mool Mantar' .Kindly do not explain.Just say yes or no.If it is 'no' you may kindly write a line.

2.Likewise 'what is Practice Naam'? What is the meaning of this. Should I recite and chant /meditate upon 'waheguru' or something else is to be done.

3.Make Naam your companion?What should I be doing to achieve this. Will it be keeping 'waheguru' in my thoughts or in mind for as long as possible.

I shall be grateful if the answer is in the form of 1,2 and 3.
Kindly forgive me for my bluntness.I am encouraged by your kind response to the querist and my intellect will absorb only that it is capable of. I would bother you further as and when doubt arises.



Regards
sikhi.sikhi@yahoo.co.in

.


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## Astroboy (Oct 22, 2007)

I will be answering your quesries by email. But there is a point which I need to address on this forum. 
The beginning is always an orientation that requires physical effort. Awaking early in the morning also means when your mind is not actively engrossed towards the world. Find that time or part of your 24 hours which is tranquil and peaceful. 
Secondly, sit is a chair and be comfortable. Upright positioning is optional. 
Thirdly, when one wants to fly a kite, one needs to feel the presence of the wind as well as position the kite by holding it and letting go at the right time.
After that the invisible wind will do the rest. 
Similarly, a small physical effort of Mool Mantar da Jaap becomes holding the kite and waiting to release it in the presence of the inner sound current.

More later.


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## Sikh80 (Oct 25, 2007)

Naam | ਨਾਮੁ
_Main article: Nāma_
Naam literally means, _the Name_. A fuller definition of the word can only be found within the SGGS itself. Naam is God’s _Word_, or the Divine Essence. Etymologically, the word has a striking resemblance with the Greek _neumena_ or the Bright Essence as opposed to phenomena. Naam is not merely the ‘Name of God’ as is commonly believed; it symbolises the Being of God filling all Creation. Naam is also referred to as Shabad in the SGGS.
Where there was no creation, there was nothing in existence – no air, light, water, earth or space. God existed alone in deep meditation and self absorption. When God willed for the manifestations of his values, He created universes, worlds and all material and other living beings by uttering a single _Word_. His _Word_ is all pervasive and the sole source of all Creation; the _Word_ created the universes and supports and sustains all things within them. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib further enlightens us that God’s Word turned into waves of light, rays of which are present in all creatures and all other parts of His creation. This is consistent with a fundamental principle of physics that sound vibrations, when increased several fold, change into waves of light.
This Essence / Naam / Sabad / Logus is formless, colourless, and featureless but, as said, is present in all creation. There is no plant, no creature, in what it is not. The Earth and other heavenly bodies exist because there is Naam in this universe and when God withdraws this Naam from this Universe, there is natural calamities (Parloh / Mahaparloh) all over the universe and this is the time that the universe perishes and all the living creatures perish. Being so, the Essence can’t be seen or visualised by the mind. We can see only the physical dimension of Reality in God’s Creation – mountains, plants, trees, creatures etc. Thus the Outer Shell of Reality holds us (the appearances delude us) and we cannot penetrate deeper to experience the all pervading Reality. The physical dimensions of Reality (the outer shell) is always in flux; it keeps changing. While birth, death, creation, destruction etc. occur in the physical dimensions of creation, the Essence, being _Sat_ (Sat-Naam) never changes, it transcends space and time.
We cannot focus our mind or attention on God, who is Absolute, the invisible Essence. The Naam (SHABAD), the Name of God is the only medium available to us for approaching Him. The Naam actually is a combination of 5 words (which actually are the name of 5 supernatural heavenly places which fall on the way when the soul is starting towards the SACHKHAND) which only a true Guru can give to its disciples. All who get Naam from the Guru have to concentrate at one point in their mind and recite the Naam in their mind without actually uttering it. When we recite Naam, our soul starts responding to it. It actually starts to shrink and starts moving towards the point in our body called the THIRD EYE.
When a person practices it for a very long time he/she reaches the SACHKHAND. Thus, it is through the Naam that we are able to think of Him, to remember Him. In other words, the Naam is God Himself, adopted to our limited powers of perception and thought, adopted to the capacities of our body and mind. Because we are endowed with the capacity to utter and attentively listen, the continuous recitation of and attentive listening to the Naam focuses our mind on the object of invocation, resulting in a ceaseless remembrance of God (DHYAAN). This Dhyaan, in turn, results in complete absorption of our consciousness on the thought of God, who responds to our earnest invocation and reveals Himself in our inner being.
The revelation of the Essence of Reality within us is the revelation of Naam. When the revelation of Naam occurs within, the devotee sees His the Essence of God pervading throughout His Creation. Gurus have taught that their teachings are for all the religion (varnas) and all have the right to get the teachings of the Gurus. To Initate our soul so that it starts towards the ultimate goal (SACHKHAND) a person has to repeatedly and continuously recite and remember the Naam, and to cherish it in the heart all the time – this is the essence of prayer and devotion to God.
In Gurbani, the word Gursabad or Shabad is synonymous with Naam. Without ceaseless recitation of Naam God cannot be realised.

Source:wikipedia


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## Sikh80 (Oct 26, 2007)

*I am giving below an artile from sikhiwiki .These have helped me a lot in understanding Godhead in Sikhism. Hope you will enjoy it.If interested one may continue as per the link provided below:*

*God*

*From SikhiWiki*


The Sikhs believe in one God who has existed from the beginning of time, never dies and will exist for ever. He/She is genderless; without a body; fearless; without enemies; self sufficient; etc – God's qualities are too many for people to narrate. 
Many names are used for God:- *Waheguru* - The Wonderful Lord; *Satnam* – Truth is your Name . *Malik* - Master; Akal Purakh – The primal being; *Karta Purakh* - The Creator being, etc 
Below are the qualities that Sikhism attributes to God: 
*Compassionate & Kind:*

_Blessing us with His Glance of Grace, the Kind and Compassionate, All-powerful Lord comes to dwell within the mind and body. (SGGS Page 49)_

_The Cherisher Lord is so very merciful and wise; He is compassionate to all. (SGGS Page 249)_

_The Lord is kind and compassionate to all beings and creatures; His Protecting Hand is over all. (SGGS Page 300)_

_O Nanak, God has been kind and compassionate; He has blessed me. Removing pain and poverty, He has blended me with Himself. ||8||5|| (SGGS Page 1311)_
*God is everywhere*

_Nanak is attuned to the Love of the Lord, whose Light pervades the entire Universe. (SGGS Page 49)_

*GOD IN SIKHISM* , a term used to denote any object of worship or evocation, signifies the belief of most modern religions in the existence of a Supreme Being who is the source and support of the spatio-temporal material world. Theologians remember Him by the name of God. The fundamental belief of Sikhism, too, is that God exists, not merely as an idea or concept, but as a Real Being, indescribable yet not unknowable. The Gurus, however, never theorized about proofs of the existence of God. For them He is too real and obvious to need any logical proof. Guru Arjan, Nanak V, says, "God is beyond colour and form, yet His presence is clearly visible" (GG, 74), and again, "Nanak's Lord transcends the world as well as the scriptures of the east and the west, and yet he is clearly manifest" (GG, 397). In any case, knowledge of the ultimate Reality is not a matter for reason; it comes by revelation of Himself through nadar or grace and by anubhava or mystical experience. Says Guru Nanak, _budhi pathi na paiai bahu chaturaiai bhai milai mani bhane (He is not accessible through intellect, or through mere scholarship or cleverness at argument; He is met, when He pleases, through devotion) " (GG, 436)._ 

Sikhism as a religion is uncompromisingly monotheistic. The Gurus have described God in numerous ways in their hymns included in the Guru Granth Sahib, but the unicity of the deity is consistently emphasized throughout. Briefly, God for the Sikhs as described in the Mool Mantar, basic formula of the faith, viz. 
Ik oankar satinamu karta purakhu nirbhau nirvairu akal murati ajuni saibhan gurprasadi translates to ​One Supreme Being, the Immutable and Eternal Name, the Creative Principle, Without fear and Without rancour, the Timeless Verity, Unincarnated and Self-Existent, known through His grace. ​*(GG. Pg 0001) *​
Oankar is a variation of the mystic monosyllable Om (also known as anahata nada, the unstruck sound) first set forth in the Upanisads as the transcendent object of profound religious meditation. 

Guru Nanak prefixed the numeral one (ik) to it making it Ik Oankar or Ekankar to stress GOD's oneness. GOD is named and known only through GOD's Own immanent nature. Almost all names are attributive. The only name which can be said to truly fit GOD's transcendent state is Sati or Satinam (Sanskrit 'satya' meaning TRUTH ), the changeless and timeless Reality. GOD is transcendent and all-pervasive at the same time. Transcendence and immanence are two aspects of the same single Supreme Reality. The Reality is immanent in the entire creation, but the creation as a whole fails to contain GOD fully. As says Guru Tegh Bahadur, Nanak IX, "He has himself spread out His Own maya which He Himself oversees; many different forms He assumes in many colours, yet he stays independent of all" (GG, 537). 

God is Karta Purakh, the Creator-Person. He created the spatio-temporal universe not from some pre-existing physical element, but from His own Self. Universe is His own emanation. It is not maya or illusion but is real (sati) because, as say Guru Arjan, “True is He and true is His creation [because] all has emanated from God Himself” (GG 294). But God is not identical with the universe. The latter exists and is contained in Him and not vice versa. God is immanent in the created world, but is not limited by it. “Many times He expands Himself into such worlds but He ever remains the same One Ekankar" (GG, 276). Even at one time "there are hundreds of thousands of skies and nether regions" (GG, 5). Included in Sach Khand, the figurative abode of God, there are countless regions and universes" (GG, 8). Creation is "His sport which He Himself witnesses, and when He rolls up the sport, He is His sole Self again" (GG, 292). He Himself is the Creator, Sustainer and the Destroyer. 
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/God
To be contd..


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## Sikh80 (Nov 30, 2007)

seeker07 said:


> From your comments as above, here are a few points that come to mind:-
> 
> 1. Guru Nanak has said, "...pay proper heed to the sowing and not to the harvesting, for the harvest will come of its own from the seeds sown. Guru Nanak has beautifully said: "It may be all very well to worry about events contrary to the Divine Plan, but what is destined will happen in spite of us..."
> 
> ...


 
Respected Begum ji,

Would you kindly continue with the thread, It seems that you were busy somewhere else. May kindly continue.


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## Astroboy (Dec 1, 2007)

Sookham moorat naam niranjan, kaya ka akaar - naam which is often called Bij Mantar is the 'product' of Mool Mantar - sach (Truth).

Truth means God. If the germs in God's body were de-magnified to a millionth of their original size(made smaller), they would appear to have the appearance of massively huge salamanders whose skin would seem stronger than titanium - and we (human's) would start praying to them as the Gods by making idols.

Naam seems to change as we put our attention towards God. Because, real naam cannot be explained. But the level of proximity towards the road to Sat LOK each gives a different experience. Under reality terms, it is a reflection of a reflection of SAT LOK.

All changes only exist within the realm of duality, Maya. But God made Maya - our school.
Even if we forget the nearness of our Creator - real parent - Our creator keeps us in his fold while giving us these experiences. 

More Later.


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