# Gun Gobind Gayo Nahi



## nrkalee (Jul 1, 2007)

Gun gobind gayo nahi, janam akarath keen, 
kahe nanak, har bhaj mana, joi bid jal ko meen 

I have not sung the praises of Govind (Hari, Krishna) and wasted my entire life. Nanak says, o mind, sing the praises of Hari (Govind, Krishna) ceaselessly, and immerse yourself in this chant just like a fish in water. 

Hohn lalan syoin preet bani, 
tori na tutae, chodi na chutae, aise madhov kheench tani. 
Bal bal jaun shayamsundar ke, akath katha janki bat suni. 
Jan nanak das an das, kahiyat he mohe kar kirpa, thakur apni. 

I have fallen in love with Lala (baby Krishna), I cannot break this attraction for you, I cannot leave you, O Madhav! I sacrifice myself repeatedly for you, O Shayamsunder, of whom I have heard such wonderful pastimes…! Nanak is the servant of the servant, and begs the Thakur to please shower him with mercy. 

Please note that, in the above, Lalan, Madhava, ShyamSunder, and Thakur all refer unambiguously to Krishna, none other. And Nanak refers to Guru Nanak the one who established Sikhism. Perhaps you have heard of him? And he says: sing the praises of, chant the name of Hari, Govind, Madhav, Shayamsunder. 

So, this is what Nanak recommends. Therefore, whosoever does not subscribe to this, is really not a Sikh for the simple reason that if you are not following the Guru, you cannot very well consider yourself his disciple. 

If you wish to do jap, please follow Nanak’s advice. Forget the political ideologies that your local Gurudwara delivers. You are not a politician, but an old man, women, with one leg in the grave. Go with Nanak, and you'll never be sorry. 

Chant the name of Hari, Govind, Krishna. Repeat any one of these names incessantly. Govind is good: All you need to do is go: “Govind, Govind, Govind….” That’s all. 

If you feel unsure, then just participate in bhajans. But make sure that they contain names of the Supreme Lord like in the ones that I have quoted above. But this time, meditate in the Supreme Lord Govind, Hari, or Krishna. 

Don’t be shy. It’s you future extending almost to eternity. Don't play with it.


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## Harjap Khalsa (Jul 1, 2007)

A person who is afraid of disclosing his/her religion, giving advise to others. nrkalee ji very afraid you are in disclosing your religion, WHY?

The picture of Avtar is Hindu Diety Krishan, so let me call you Diety Krishan Bhagat as you are recommending Sikhs to do Govind Govind Govind.

Some Questions for you:

Can you explain why not Waheguru?

For me Waheguru and Gobind or Govind, there lies no difference. yes I prefer Waheguru, Why? Well I humbly have my own reasons.

Another question: What if Devaki and Vasudev named their Son something else?

What naam/name/deity people worshipped before Krishna was even born? If Krisna-Govind is the only way to Moksha: Was there no Moksha before he was born? 

Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Wahe Jeo

Kaval nain madhur bain kot sain sang sodh Kahat ma jasodh jisae Dahi Bhaat 
khae jeo 

Dekh roop att anup moh maha mag bhaee kinkanee sabad Jhanatkaar khel pahe jeeo

kaal kalam hukam haath kaho kon met sakey ees brahm gyaan dhyaan dharat heeay chahe jeo

sat sach siri niwas aad purkh sadaa tuhee Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Wahe Jeo.

nrkalee Ji, our Govind is Waheguru -aad sach- nirbhao, nirvair, akaal murat, ajooni(does need to be incarnated as a human), Saibhang. 

Our Govind(Waheguru) is present within everybody, everything, everywhere. 

Waheguru is not limited to name-Gobind. 
Waheguru is Ram also:

Japji Sahib Guru Nanak Dev Ji- naa oh mare na thage jaai jin ke raam vasey man mahe

Waheguru is allaa also

 Guru Amar Das Ji says: Bhagat niraalee allah di jaape gurveechar


A Sikh does not hide his/her relgion because he/she neither afraid or ashamed of it. I am not sure which religion teaches one to hide its identity. Can you please explian the reason of your undisclosed path? 

The act of hiding and leying is done only under pressure. What pressure nrkalee ji, may be we can help you. for now: Jap Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru----Anant vaar. untill you make next post.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## spnadmin (Jul 1, 2007)

nrkalee my friend

You have posted in a Forum, called the Sikh Philosophy Network. Two things are a problem with your comments.

1. A forum is for conversation, dialog, even debate. It is not a place for accusations that are based on your presumption only. No one is doing the political work of local gurdwaras. 

2. References to singing the praises of various deities can be found throughout Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji. This does not come as a startling discovery to anyone. But by taking a line here and a line there and building a case for an agenda that is not Gurmat doesn't work. 

Following Nanaak's advice we will assert that there is only one God. This forum has participated in similar discussions-- so let us head you off at the pass. Followers of Shabd Guru are not going to say Hari, Hari, Hari or Govind, Govind, Govind or Krishna, and so forth, as part of their simran. For them, simran will be this:  Waheguru, Waheguru, Waheguru. A percentage instead meditate on Sat Naam Sri Waheguru.

Harjap ji has done a good job of explaining how to re-think your position. There is no need for me to restate what Harjap has so graciously explained. Next time around, we need to encounter one another in terms of how and why we may differ. No need to resort to judgements that are not supported by Gurmat or by facts.

God is always cheerful.


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## nrkalee (Jul 2, 2007)

My dear ***  ******** 
Why don't your ask these questions to Nanak? He is the one who is singing those heartfelt songs. Not I. But I'll say one thing, "I don't here Waheguru anywhere in his songs."  

Try not to make your religion, for there is no end to mental speculation. "I like it, so let me do it my way." But that not the way it works. Hey, guys, I've found really great mantra, and it sounds cool, lets chant this insteads. It will really set us apart! That's an ***'s philosophy. Ever heard one braying, my friend? Refrain. Let the acharyas do it.


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## kds1980 (Jul 2, 2007)

dear nrkalee

If guru nanak recommended worship of krishna then why guru gobind singh ji wrote against the worship of krishna.

ਕਹੂੰ ਲੈ ਠੋਕ ਬਧੇ ਉਰ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੌ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਕਹਯੋ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਦਰ ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਸੀਤ ਕੈ ਬੀਚ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥
कहूं लै ठोक बधे उर ठाकुर काहूं महेश कौ एस बखानयो ॥ काहूं कहयो हरि मंदर मै हरि काहूं मसीत कै बीच प्रमानयो ॥
Someone has tied the stone-idol around his neck and someone has accepted Shiva as the Lord; someone considers the Lord within the temple or the mosque;

ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਯੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਨੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੨॥
काहूं ने राम कहयो क्रिशना कहु काहूं मनै अवतारन मानयो ॥ फोकट धरम बिसार सभै करतार ही कउ करता जीअ जानयो ॥१२॥
Someone calls him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only the One Creator.12.

ਜੌ ਕਹੌ ਰਾਮ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਅਜੈ ਅਤਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੌ ਕੌਸ਼ਲ ਕੁੱਖ ਜਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾਲ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੌ ਕਿਹਿ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਦੀਨ ਭਯੋ ਜੂ ॥
जौ कहौ राम अजोनि अजै अति काहे कौ कौशल कु्ख जयो जू ॥ काल हूं काल कहै जिहि कौ किहि कारण काल ते दीन भयो जू ॥
If we consider Ram, the Lord as Unborn, then how did he take brith from the womb of Kaushalya ? He, who is said to be the KAL (destroyer) of KAL (death), then why did none become subjugated himself before KAL?

ਸੱਤ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਬੈਰ ਕਹਾਇ ਸੁ ਕਯੋਂ ਪਥ ਕੌ ਰਥ ਹਾਂਕ ਧਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਕੋਊ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਲੇਨ ਲਯੋ ਜੂ ॥੧੩॥
स्त सरूप बिबैर कहाइ सु कयों पथ कौ रथ हांक धयो जू ॥ ताही को मानि प्रभू करि कै जिह को कोऊ भेदु न लेन लयो जू ॥१३॥
If he is called the Truth-incarnate, beyond enmity and opposition, then why did he become the charioteer of Arjuna ? O mind ! you only consider him the Lord God, whose Mysetry could not be known to anyone.13.

ਕਯੋਂ ਕਹੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧ ਹੈ ਕਿਹ ਕਾਜ ਤੇ ਬੱਧਕ ਬਾਣ ਲਗਾਯੋ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕੁਲੀਨ ਉਧਾਰਤ ਜੋ ਕਿਹ ਤੇ ਅਪਨੋ ਕੁਲ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਯੋ ॥
कयों कहु क्रिशन क्रिपानिध है किह काज ते ब्धक बाण लगायो ॥ अउर कुलीन उधारत जो किह ते अपनो कुल नासु करायो ॥
Krishna himself is considered the treasure of Grace, then why did the hunter shot his arrow at him ? He has been described as redeeming the clans of others then he caused the destruction of his own clan;

ਆਦਿ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਕਹਾਇ ਕਹੋ ਕਿਮ ਦੇਵਕਿ ਕੇ ਜਠਰੰਤਰ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਤਾਤ ਨ ਮਾਤ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਤਿਹ ਕਯੋਂ ਬਸੁਦੇਵਹਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥੧੪॥
आदि अजोनि कहाइ कहो किम देवकि के जठरंतर आयो ॥ तात न मात कहै जिह को तिह कयों बसुदेवहि बापु कहायो ॥१४॥
He is said to be unborn and beginningless, then how did he come into the womb of Devaki ? He , who is considered without any father or mother, then why did he cause Vasudev to be called his father?14.

ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥
काहे को एश महेशहि भाखत काहि दिजेश को एस बखानयो ॥ है न रघ्वेश जद्वेश रमापति तै जिन कौ बिस्वनाथ पछानयो ॥
Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord ? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you;

ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥
एक को छाडि अनेक भजै सुकदेव परासर बयास झुठानयो ॥ फोकट धरम सजे सभ ही हम एक ही कौ बिध नैक प्रमानयो ॥१५॥
Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses; in this way you prove Shukdev, Prashar etc. as liars; all the so-called religions are hollow; I only accept the One Lord as the Providence.15.

ਕੋਊ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਬਤੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਕਹੈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਇਕ ਜਾਹਿ ਭਜੇ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਕਟੈ ਹੈ ॥
कोऊ दिजेश को मानत है अरु कोऊ महेश को एश बतै है ॥ कोऊ कहै बिशनो बिशनाइक जाहि भजे अघ ओघ कटै है ॥
Someone tells Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only on remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed;

ਬਾਰ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਤਜਿ ਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਿ ਹੀਏ ਜੋਊ ਥੇ ਅਬ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਆਗੈ ਊ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥
बार हज़ार बिचार अरे जड़ अंत समै सभ ही तजि जै है ॥ ताही को धयान प्रमानि हीए जोऊ थे अब है अरु आगै ऊ ह्वै है ॥१६॥
O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death, therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who is there in the present and who will also be there in future.16.

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib


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## Harjap Khalsa (Jul 2, 2007)

Nrkalee ji,

Guru/Achyaraya/God/Waheguru/Gobind/Ram/Alaah/Hari is Gurbani. That's what we are talking about. You may call it achyarya, i may be mistaken-I HOPE YOU AREN'T SUGGESTING YOURSELF.

Gurbani iss jag meh chanan

Jap Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## spnadmin (Jul 2, 2007)

Respected nrkalee and other participants.

Waheguru is found in  Guruji under the spelling of Vaheguru, Vahiguru, or Vahguru. The question of why we say Waheguru has also been a topic of discussion on the forum from time to time. Waheguru is mentioned 18 times in the Guruji. The instruction comes from Varaan of Bhai Gurdas. Here are two of the vaars. Although I suspect that many already know of the origins of the meditation on God's name.


Vaar=11 Pauri=03 Line 4  Who may be called a Sikh of the Guru

sathigur purakh dhaeiaal hoe vaahiguroo sach manthr sunaayaa||
Becoming kind, the Guru recites true mantra Vaheguru for him.

2.  Vaar=11 Pauri=08 Line 8  Love of the gurmukhs

vaahiguroo vaddee vaddiaaee ||a||
Wondrous is the Vaheguru whose greatness is grand.

These are two. There are others. Stay in Chardi Kala.


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## nrkalee (Jul 2, 2007)

The Dasam Granth is believed to have been compiled after the 10th Guru's demise by Bhai Mani Singh... I much rather go by Nanak whom I consider the real guru, meaning the original source.


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## spnadmin (Jul 2, 2007)

nrkalee

You have him mixed up with someone else. Here is some background.

Bhai Gurdas Vars

Stay in Chardi Kala


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## Harjap Khalsa (Jul 2, 2007)

nrkalee ji, that original source says-

KETE KAAN MAHES-in japji sahib. I hope you understand what Dhan Guru Nanak ji is reffering to.

hale vi vela hai, saver da bhuleya sham nu ghar aa jave ta us nu bhuleya nahee kehnde

jap Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru anant vaar

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## spnadmin (Jul 2, 2007)

From the Vars of Bhai Gurdas

The Siddhas pondered over plans for converting Guru Nanak to their sect.
They thought that such a yogi person would add to the glory of their order.
One Nath gave a bowl to Nanak to fill it with water.
As Nanak approached the pool of water, he saw no water but jewels lying where
there had been water.
Nanak returned and said to the Nath “There is no water in the pool.”
The Guru is an unfathomable and perfect being. Who can face the Guru’s aura !
Nanak conquered the guild of Siddhas with the Holy Word and proclaimed to them
his distinct path.
In the Dark Age, the Sacred Name propagated by Nanak is the source of all happiness.


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## nrkalee (Jul 2, 2007)

Same person.


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## spnadmin (Jul 2, 2007)

Respected nrkalee

sbr sMdw bwxu Kwlku Kqw n krI ]115]
sabar sandhaa baan khaalak khathaa n karee ||115||
_Make patience the arrow, the Creator will not let you miss the target. ||115||_

Bhagat Fareed

A gurSikh will always wait. God is always Cheerful.


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## kds1980 (Jul 3, 2007)

nrkalee said:


> The Dasam Granth is believed to have been compiled after the 10th Guru's demise by Bhai Mani Singh... I much rather go by Nanak whom I consider the real guru, meaning the original source.



dear nrkalee

If you want to understand sikhism then you have to understand basic sikh philosophy.
the basic teaching of Guru nanak and other guru's is worshipping of One formless god.
this god  could be addressed as allah,waheguru,govind,hari,ram or as you wish.
worshipping of krishna of mahabharata or any other demi god or goddess is not recommended in sikhism.


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## nrkalee (Jul 3, 2007)

Yes Ji,
I have an opinion on that subject as well. Much of the sentiments expressed by Guru Nanak are actually esoteric Vaishnava ideologies. Only a exalted Vaishnava Acharya of the caliber of Jaidev or so, is allowed to compose such songs. That’s the etiquette. 

So herein lay a discrepancy. How does someone sing such songs and at the same time not know that Krishna is the Supreme Lord and not a Demigod like Mahesh? 

Now that fact that Krishna is the Supreme Lord is firmly established in all the Vedic Literatures. They are not my baseless conclusions. In fact, you will not find a single semi-literate Hindu who will club Krishna with the demigods. What then to speak of a Vaishanva who would rather die than make such a blunder. This in indeed very mysterious. Deep on one hand, appallingly shallow on the other. 

Now, clearly we cannot have the Guru in a compromising position. Therefore, clearly, the ‘..KETE KAAN MAHES..’ verse is the handiwork of someone else, and possibly even the ever prolific Bhai Mani Singh, the author of the Dassam Granth which is full of similar sentiments, and frankly not the same as Nanak's teachings.


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## nrkalee (Jul 3, 2007)

In response to : Krishna of mahabharata or any other demi god or goddess is not recommended in sikhism.

Please read my thread "My Hari , your Hari." 

Krishna is not a demigod. He is the Supreme Lord according to Vedic literature. Sanathan Dharma talks of one Supreme God. His name is Krishna, or Hari or Govinda. All the  rest are demigods. Please get your facts right. Anyone who says Krishna is a demigod is ignorant of the facts.


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## nrkalee (Jul 3, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> dear nrkalee
> 
> If you want to understand sikhism then you have to understand basic sikh philosophy.
> the basic teaching of Guru nanak and other guru's is worshipping of One formless god.
> this god  could be addressed as allah,waheguru,govind,hari,ram or as you wish.



Please understand that the formless god concept is not a very great realization. Also, the if you believe that you can address him by any name, why is name jap given so much importance? The name of the Lord is same as the Lord. And therefore chanting the name alone purifies. Any amount of heartfelt praying is not going to get you anywhere. Only names such as Krishna will penetrate deep and cleanse your soul.  Please try to understand my arguments wholly by its logic.


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## spnadmin (Jul 3, 2007)

nrkalee

 Hmmm! Where is your logic? I can remember reading that a Zen master once told his monks: If you are a cold Buddha, be a cold Buddha. If you are a hot Buddha, be a hot Buddha. Be clear. 

The importance of Krishna in the writing of Gobind dev ji is completely constrained by the intentions of that great Sikh Guru. It is Gobind's logic that is to be understood, and the one who speaks through him, Waheguru. Not your logic.

Several times you have expressed concerns for the integrity of Sikh Scriptures. Now I must do the moderator thing, and give you fair warning. We are limited in how we will discuss Dasam Granth. Please! No movement into discussions of parts of Dasam Granth that SGPC has asked us not to have _if that is where you plan to go_.  Or we will have to embargo this thread. You can send any moderator a private message if you desire clarification.


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## spnadmin (Jul 3, 2007)

Kds1980 said it all. Again,


 ਕਹੂੰ ਲੈ ਠੋਕ ਬਧੇ ਉਰ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੌ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਕਹਯੋ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਦਰ ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਸੀਤ ਕੈ ਬੀਚ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥

Someone has tied the stone-idol around his neck and someone has accepted Shiva as the Lord; someone considers the Lord within the temple or the mosque;

ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਯੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਨੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੨॥
Someone calls him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only the One Creator.12.

ਜੌ ਕਹੌ ਰਾਮ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਅਜੈ ਅਤਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੌ ਕੌਸ਼ਲ ਕੁੱਖ ਜਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾਲ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੌ ਕਿਹਿ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਦੀਨ ਭਯੋ ਜੂ ॥

If we consider Ram, the Lord as Unborn, then how did he take brith from the womb of Kaushalya ? He, who is said to be the KAL (destroyer) of KAL (death), then why did none become subjugated himself before KAL?

ਸੱਤ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਬੈਰ ਕਹਾਇ ਸੁ ਕਯੋਂ ਪਥ ਕੌ ਰਥ ਹਾਂਕ ਧਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਕੋਊ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਲੇਨ ਲਯੋ ਜੂ ॥੧੩॥

If he is called the Truth-incarnate, beyond enmity and opposition, then why did he become the charioteer of Arjuna ? O mind ! you only consider him the Lord God, whose Mysetry could not be known to anyone.13.

ਕਯੋਂ ਕਹੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧ ਹੈ ਕਿਹ ਕਾਜ ਤੇ ਬੱਧਕ ਬਾਣ ਲਗਾਯੋ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕੁਲੀਨ ਉਧਾਰਤ ਜੋ ਕਿਹ ਤੇ ਅਪਨੋ ਕੁਲ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਯੋ ॥

Krishna himself is considered the treasure of Grace, then why did the hunter shot his arrow at him ? He has been described as redeeming the clans of others then he caused the destruction of his own clan;

ਆਦਿ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਕਹਾਇ ਕਹੋ ਕਿਮ ਦੇਵਕਿ ਕੇ ਜਠਰੰਤਰ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਤਾਤ ਨ ਮਾਤ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਤਿਹ ਕਯੋਂ ਬਸੁਦੇਵਹਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥੧੪॥

He is said to be unborn and beginningless, then how did he come into the womb of Devaki ? He , who is considered without any father or mother, then why did he cause Vasudev to be called his father?14.

ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥

Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord ? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you;

ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥

Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses; in this way you prove Shukdev, Prashar etc. as liars; all the so-called religions are hollow; I only accept the One Lord as the Providence.15.

ਕੋਊ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਬਤੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਕਹੈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਇਕ ਜਾਹਿ ਭਜੇ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਕਟੈ ਹੈ ॥
Someone tells Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only on remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed;

ਬਾਰ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਤਜਿ ਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਿ ਹੀਏ ਜੋਊ ਥੇ ਅਬ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਆਗੈ ਊ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥

O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death, therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who is there in the present and who will also be there in future.16.


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## nrkalee (Jul 4, 2007)

In response to: Dassam Granth...not to go there  

No desire, no time, no patience with controversial literature. Why jeopardize an eternity of happiness by reading such a thing; why intentionally choose a leaky boat to cross the ocean of nescience?  

Please take your spiritual life extremely seriously. You stand to gain or lose immeasurably. As I have mentioned earlier, the Vedic literatures are very emphatic on this one. The basic idea is: 

Athato Brahma-Jijnasa. ‘Now is the time for self-realization.’ 

The ‘now’ here means when one obtains a human form of life. As a toilet fly it is a little difficult to pursue, as an alley cat, you have sparrows on your mind, as a demigod too you are much too distracted by the pleasures of heaven.* As a human neither are you tormented by appalling suffering nor are the pleasures so great to wholly distract you. 

*Therefore: Now is the time... but for heaven's sake pick a sturdy boat. *

*Heavenly planets are different from the spiritual world of Vaikunta. I hope you guys know that.


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## nrkalee (Jul 4, 2007)

Dear SPN Moderators: what have you done with my article: "Clearing Spiritual Concepts?"


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## Admin (Jul 4, 2007)

Just checkout, its back!! 

Let's be more matured while discussing anything on SPN. Unnecessary personal comments and bragging only takes us away from the topic rather than sounding intellectual. Avoid this at any cost. 

Enjoy!!


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## kds1980 (Jul 4, 2007)

nrkalee said:


> Yes Ji,
> I have an opinion on that subject as well. Much of the sentiments expressed by Guru Nanak are actually esoteric Vaishnava ideologies. Only a exalted Vaishnava Acharya of the caliber of Jaidev or so, is allowed to compose such songs. That’s the etiquette.
> 
> So herein lay a discrepancy. How does someone sing such songs and at the same time not know that Krishna is the Supreme Lord and not a Demigod like Mahesh?
> ...




dear nrkalee

Its better if you start this debate that vishnu is the supreme lord and other hindu gods are
demi gods on hindu forum.i watched many hindu serials like om namoh shivay ,devi maa etc and one thing is clear that all worshippers of gods whether it is durga or shiv or vishnu
say that their god or goddess is supreme while others are demi gods.according to shaivaites vishnu is the worshipper of shiva and according to shakt vishnu is the worshipper of durga.so your claim that vedic literature accept vishnu the supreme lord is not fully true

as far as your claim that guru granth sahib is adulterated by bhai mani singh is absolutely baseless.you should know  the history of guru granth sahib before making such claims.
The original bir of aad granth known as kartarpuri bir which was written by guru arjan dev ji was in the possession of dhirtmallia.when guru gobind singh ji demanded it from him he refused to give it.then guru gobind singh ji exactly wrote the guru granth sahib adding shabads of guru tegh bahadur ji and one shalok of his.The  bir that guru gobind singh ji wrote is known as damdami bir.the gurgaddi was given to this bir.

     The kartar puri bir is still in the possession of sodhi family.a court case is going on
that this bir should be returned to sikhs.the people who read kartarpuri bir found that shabads of kartarpuri bir are not different from guru granth sahib of present.so there is no chance of bhai mani singh adultrating kartarpuri bir as well damdami bir.


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## kds1980 (Jul 4, 2007)

nrkalee said:


> Please understand that the formless god concept is not a very great realization. Also, the if you believe that you can address him by any name, why is name jap given so much importance? The name of the Lord is same as the Lord. And therefore chanting the name alone purifies. Any amount of heartfelt praying is not going to get you anywhere. Only names such as Krishna will penetrate deep and cleanse your soul.  Please try to understand my arguments wholly by its logic.



dear nrkalee

you are a vaishnava and i respect your beleif but please don't try to impose your beleif on others that krishna is supreme god and only it makes you no different from muslims who propagate that allah is true god and onlly mohammed is the last prophet and all those who don't beleive in it will go to hell

let me show you a shabd of kabir ji

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜੀਅ ਜੋਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਤ ਨੰਦੁ ਬਹੁ ਥਾਕੋ ਰੇ ॥ 
लख चउरासीह जीअ जोनि महि भ्रमत नंदु बहु थाको रे ॥ 
Lakẖ cẖaorāsīh jīa jon meh bẖarmaṯ nanḏ baho thāko rė. 
Wandering through 8.4 million incarnations, Krishna's father Nand was totally exhausted. 


ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤਿ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਲੀਓ ਹੈ ਭਾਗੁ ਬਡੋ ਬਪੁਰਾ ਕੋ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ 
भगति हेति अवतारु लीओ है भागु बडो बपुरा को रे ॥१॥ 
Bẖagaṯ hėṯ avṯār līo hai bẖāg bado bapurā ko rė. ||1|| 
Because of his devotion, Krishna was incarnated in his home; how great was the good fortune of this poor man! ||1|| 


ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਜੁ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਨੰਦਨੁ ਨੰਦ ਸੁ ਨੰਦਨੁ ਕਾ ਕੋ ਰੇ ॥ 
तुम्ह जु कहत हउ नंद को नंदनु नंद सु नंदनु का को रे ॥ 
Ŧumĥ jo kahaṯ hao nanḏ ko nanḏan nanḏ so nanḏan kā ko rė. 
You say that Krishna was Nand's son, but whose son was Nand himself? 


ਧਰਨਿ ਅਕਾਸੁ ਦਸੋ ਦਿਸ ਨਾਹੀ ਤਬ ਇਹੁ ਨੰਦੁ ਕਹਾ ਥੋ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
धरनि अकासु दसो दिस नाही तब इहु नंदु कहा थो रे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Ḏẖaran akās ḏaso ḏis nāhī ṯab ih nanḏ kahā tho rė. ||1|| rahāo. 
When there was no earth or ether or the ten directions, where was this Nand then? ||1||Pause|| 


ਸੰਕਟਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਰੈ ਜੋਨਿ ਨਹੀ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਾ ਕੋ ਰੇ ॥ 
संकटि नही परै जोनि नही आवै नामु निरंजन जा को रे ॥ 
Sankat nahī parai jon nahī āvai nām niranjan jā ko rė. 
He does not fall into misfortune, and He does not take birth; His Name is the Immaculate Lord.

ਕਬੀਰ ਕੋ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਐਸੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਮਾਈ ਨ ਬਾਪੋ ਰੇ ॥੨॥੧੯॥੭੦॥ 
कबीर को सुआमी ऐसो ठाकुरु जा कै माई न बापो रे ॥२॥१९॥७०॥ 
Kabīr ko suāmī aiso ṯẖākur jā kai māī na bāpo rė. ||2||19||70|| 
Kabeer's Lord is such a Lord and Master, who has no mother or father. ||2||19||70|


so worshiping of one formless god is the basic philosophy of sikhism.If you agree with it its fine if you don't then it is also fine you can worship krishna as you like but please don't try to impose your beleifs on uthers


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