# Hukamnama-No Different To Reading A Horoscope?



## Harry Haller (Nov 21, 2011)

Gurfatehji

I would like some clarifiation as to the procedure of Hukamnama. From what I understand, a random page is selected, and the Shabad can provide an answer to a troubling question. 

This does not sit hugely well with my interpretation of the SGGS as the ultimate book of knowledge and information. This brings a mystical and magical side, almost a ritualistic ceremony to the great book, I would be interested to know the views of others, especially those that , like me, feel the information and guidance contained, read and understood, and then practiced on a daily basis is the way to enlightenment. This seems to cheapen the vast wisdom contained within the SGGS, seems to provide a shortcut that will magically guide you and your problems, without reading or understanding the Shabads either side, or right at the front, or right at the back, I am sure the Gurus did not design the SGGS so that all the best advice was centred in the middle, 

I would very much like to hear a good explanation of this practice, but in my heart, I cannot seem to balance the pragmatism of reading the information with the idea that thinking of a question is going to enable the SGGS to answer it with any clarity or point other than one would get from reading a daily horoscope.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 21, 2011)

Harry ji,
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is opened to a random page and a shabad is selected for contemplation. From my experience when the shabad is read with complete focus, it provide answers and understanding to my mind's questions and doubts.

I am not so sure what you find troubling about this. Is it the reading of a random shabad or opening up Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to a random page?

PS There is a great deal of mysticism in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 21, 2011)

Bhagatsinghji

I am aware that there is a great deal of mysticism in the SGGS, and I suppose that is what I find troubling, I find the information and guidance contained can stand up on its own, without the need for such mysticism, magic or miracles


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 21, 2011)

Hahaha 
What troubles you when it comes to mysticism and miracles?


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## Harry Haller (Nov 21, 2011)

Well, I do not believe in either for a start, I find the content enough without the need for a disco ball, a smoke machine and pulling rabbits out of hats.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 21, 2011)

In order to know mysticism, one must meditate. How are your efforts in meditation?


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## Harry Haller (Nov 21, 2011)

I do not meditate, wrongly or rightly, 

We all take a different view of Sikhi, my view, and it is only a personal view is that there are hard facts contained in the SGGS, and that to show our love for Creator and Creation, We must convert these facts into actions, for ourselves  , and for those around us

Meditation, in my view, is something I would like to try, but then I am unsure as to what you call meditation,. I think of Creator constantly, talk to Creators essence in my head constantly, I am in my own world a lot of the time, debating issues, attempting to find answers, thinking of questions, all directed at Creator, all answered by Creators essence, sometimes I get a wow moment, when everything falls into place, and I can see the road shining bright ahead, sometimes there is fog. 

What I do not do, is try and get to a higher plane within myself, by chanting or meditating, I have been to enough higher planes in my life that I have learnt to cherish the world, and the earthly plane we call life, and use that solely as my playground


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 21, 2011)

> I think of Creator constantly, talk to Creators essence in my head constantly, I am in my own world a lot of the time, debating issues, attempting to find answers, thinking of questions, all directed at Creator, all answered by Creators essence, sometimes I get a wow moment, when everything falls into place, and I can see the road shining bright ahead, sometimes there is fog.


Sounds like mysticism


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## Harry Haller (Nov 21, 2011)

Maybe, but what I do not do is attempt to cheat the system by looking for shortcuts, or the belief that the SGGS is a magic being that can provide answers to my questions, and that my dear brother is the point of this thread

Sure, if I embrace the contents and practice them, I will find my answers, I even have no problem opening a random page, and studying that, but the specific asking of a question and then interpretating the Shabad to get an answer seems a bit ritualistic to me, however, I am more than prepared to accept this, if it can be explained that this is fully within the mandate of Sikhi


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 21, 2011)

SGGS *can* provide answers to your questions, provided they are the right questions.

I suppose asking a question then reading the textbook to get the answer is a bit ritualistic but how else does one study for the Chemistry exam? In fact, this is a better ritual that just studying a random page. If you go in looking for something, some doubt or some question your have in mind, you will get much more out of the textbook than if you simply study.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 21, 2011)

Veerai jio it is a convention,but it is an answer in that it explains the theory of everything,so what would it matter what page you read the answer is not in the page, it is in you ,Gurbani shines a light on it so you can see with clarity so in that way it has all the answers because otherwise you can't approach any situation properly.
To know how to apply truth to the particulars of a situation we have to live it,whatever page you have read will help because it clears your mind. 
Notwithstanding I have heard that some Granthi's actually have a passage marked to read for certain occasions or for certain requests but let's leave that for another thread.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 21, 2011)

Brother, 

With the greatest respect your argument is flawed, as is your example, 

Chemistry is a huge subject with many categories and sub categories, all lumped together under the name chemistry. If you were taking an exam, you would start at the start, and if the author of the book was worth his salt, he would lead you from the start to the finish and educate you on chemistry. He would begin with simple concepts that got harder and harder, but to understand the middle, or even the end of the book, you would find yourself needing to master and learn the start, for example, it is of no use opening the middle, if you do not even know what a mole is....

It is the same with maths, which is possibly a better example, embrace the concepts of X,Y,Z, and then move to algebra, equations, and by the end, you have the tools and the mental strength to decipher complex algebra equations as you are now familiar with the way these things work. 

By your argument, one could find the answer on what happens when you burn Sodium by opening a chemistry book at random, and mentally asking the question, only a magic book could do that, and I resent the SGGS needing anything other than the information contained to justify its reverence


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## Harry Haller (Nov 21, 2011)

Spji, 

Convention..... you mean like a ritual?


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 21, 2011)

Hahaha! lol

Of course it's flawed. All analogies are flawed. As for arguments, only you are making them. I am simply speaking from personal experience that if you go looking for something whether that is a Chemistry course or Sikhi you will get much more out of it. Seek and you shall find.

I have not said one word about magic, yet you keep replying to me as if this is what my post looks like "Magic Magic magic, more magic, magic this, magic that and magic everywhere is magic." Lol


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## Harry Haller (Nov 21, 2011)

Just because all analogies are flawed, does not mean that we have to use analogies that bear no direct relevence to the subject in hand, or end up proving the very point we are wishing to defend ourselves against, that is the whole point of analogy....

I would like to think I am defending my position, rather than attacking yours, so that would mean we are both making arguments...

The question here is random openings of books to get answers, to which your last reply has not addressed, the point you make about getting more from the desire to learn is not even an issue, I would accept that as 100% fact, but your answering a question I have not asked

In our dialogue today, I have used the word magic once with you

I am making a point that when you turn the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji into a horoscope, are you acting within Sikhi, that is my only point, you have said that you do it often, you meditate, you ask, and you get an answer, am I correct in this, so that we can move on and try and learn something together


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 21, 2011)

Horoscope is as Hollow as the man who prepares it. Hukumnama is the 'word of God'. One can compare only two similar things and not two things one that is prepared by an ordinary mortal and the other uttered by The Supreme and Divine God for the mortals. 

Hukumnama reflects HIS will and order as to how a particular day should be spent in the memory and service of humanity.it does no extrapolation for worldly affairs. Horoscope on either microscopic or macroscopic grounds deal with physical or things that are material. Hukumnama is a flow of Order of Lord to the mortals. Hukumnama is Guru ji speaking to himself. Hukumnama is the first gift that a sikh wants for the days. I am sad the day if I cannot for some reasons do not make it to listen to the live really of taking of Hukumnama.  For me it is the best thing that happens in the day. I sleep to get up and to listen to Hukumnama..i think purpose of sleep is to listen to hukumnama and make a small note of it as well.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 21, 2011)

Taranjeet singh said:


> Horoscope is as Hollow as the man who prepares it. Hukumnama is the 'word of God'. One can compare only two similar things and not two things one that is prepared by an ordinary mortal and the other uttered by The Supreme and Divine God for the mortals. The thread is _ab initio_, an invaid entry.



It is not the content that is in question Taranjeetji, it is the manner in which it is being read. 

If we are asking for divine answers to divine questions, are we not asking for miracles? 

If I ask for a Hukamnana to give me advice on what to do with my life, is that not asking for a miracle? is not that requesting some sort of magical power to point me the way to the answer? 

Can I take it that the SGGS is more than a respected volume of works, it has mystical powers?

This last question is hugely important, please think hard before answering, thank you


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 21, 2011)

Harry Veer Ji Horoscope is not a good comparison but I think I understand what you mean,you are saying is there is something magical about how everytime you open a page and it answers the question you have in your mind.Perhaps it's not exactly like that ,it could be the original intention was for us to read different passages every day in order to create a mind that can answer questions.

Bhagat Singh good to see the Mystical Musketeer has changed his avtar ,I guess that other one was too angry to represent you properly,now you look like you are either meditating or half asleep, which is it pray lol


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 21, 2011)

harry haller said:


> If I ask for a Hukamnana to give me advice on what to do with my life, is that not asking for a miracle? is not that requesting some sort of magical power to point me the way to the answer?



Harry Veer ji,
Hukumnama is generally meant to guide as to how we should spend the day. It does not answer all the question of the sangat but provides an anchor around which the activity of sikh should revolve around. It is taken on daily basis. It provides guidance on day to day basis. On the other hand Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ,our sabad Guru, is always with us to guide us through this life. Hukumnama is no replacement of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as it is only a fractional part of Guru Sahib.
Yeah! On how it is taken, is a matter that can be left to the prudence of Panth. If the Panth wants a change it may bring about a change. But, speaking personally, anything that has been followed for centuries becomes a tradition and it is very hard to break traditions unless there are very many good reasons of doing the same.

We have a very popular line 'Bani Nirankaar Hi'. [Word is God]. Word of Guru are the ladder steps to the all mighty. This is only the mysticism. Our reverened friend Gyani ji has clarified that Gurbani is not a Mantra [ in the* thread of Sulhi*]

Harry veer ji... Kindly forgive me if in the process of writing today , I might have hurt you. You are a noble person.

WJKK Sri WJKF


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## Harry Haller (Nov 21, 2011)

:happysingh: Taranjeetji, 

We are debating, all of us, you, me, Spji, Bhagatsinghji, and it is wonderful, it is opening our eyes, our minds, there is nothing written by anyone that could hurt me at all, in fact your calling me noble sits more uncomortably lol

Ok, I accept the whole point of Daily Hukamnama, but that was never really the topic, it is specifically for the asking of questions from SGGS,


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 21, 2011)

Brothers and sisters I believe Hukamnama is like a morsel of food for your soul.  It is free but you better digest it, i.e. understand it.  Otherwise it will be like what goes in one ear comes out the other ear.  You can take it with coffee, tea, orange juice, milk, bacon, eggs, bagel, donuts or toast.  For those who hate caffeine, sugar, dairy products, vegans, people on diet, they can take it with plain water.

It is a wonderful opportunity for reflection so I believe that is how it is and not what Horoscopes (entertainment) do.  

Horoscopes divide the world by twelve and tell what almost 600 million (7  billion people divided by 12) people in a given category should expect from their day.  Trust it with a big grain of salt.

I hope I am not digressing below as there was a point raised about Mysticism,

Van Morrison - Into The Mystic (Original Version)      - YouTube

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 21, 2011)

Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for your one more important and inquisitive question. As mentioned before, you make us better Sikhs by sharing your  innermost thoughts.

Allow me to add my 2 cent worth.

Hukumnaama is just one miniscule part of this Sikhi journey. I disagree with you that it is like a horoscope. It is rather a "Spring board" of the day. It directs us, gives us the indication  how to conduct our that day's chores and responsibilities. It is like a "Post It" note for the day.

So, random opening of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji implies, that a Sikh already is in-tuned with Gurbani and reads it daily, does sehaj paath and understands what he/she reads so it can be practiced in one's life. This is the reason, I mention that this is just the smallest part of the daily tradition of the whole affair.

Actually, random opening should be just done once when we do the Parkash, that is opening the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for the day but sadly it is not the case anymore. It should only be done in the morning and that Hukumnaama becomes the GPS of the day. It is more due to gravity and the usual Hukumnaama is from page 450 to 700.

But unfortunately, now a days, in many local Gurdwaras, the Granthis open/mark the pages according to the occasions and the requests by the Sangat so the Hukumnaama is according to their wishes. As the Granthi is paid the money before or after, it becomes made to order pizza with extra toppings- so to speak, which is a sheer bribe. Here, we get into the ritualistic side of Sikhi which is meaningless, where the understanding and practicing of the contents of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji do not even take the back seat but stay parked in the parking lot.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Harry Haller (Nov 21, 2011)

Thank you both Tejwantji, Ambersariaji, 

I am happy with the concept of daily hukamnama, it makes a lot of sense, and I can see why it is done, that just leaves us with the specific hukamnama that is sometimes carried out to ask a question, some thoughts on that would be great


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 21, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Thank you both Tejwantji, Ambersariaji,
> 
> I am happy with the concept of daily hukamnama, it makes a lot of sense, and I can see why it is done, that just leaves us with the specific hukamnama that is sometimes carried out to ask a question, some thoughts on that would be great


Today's Hukamnama from Darbar Sahib with my understanding,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/view.php?pg=daily-hukumnama  (November 21st, 2011)



> ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥
> 
> सूही महला ४ ॥
> Sūhī mėhlā 4.
> ...


_When I seek understanding of the creator much of the nagging poverty is eliminated._



> ਭਉ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣਾ ਮੇਟਿਓ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਹਰਿ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਸੁਖਿ ਸਮਘਾ ॥੧॥
> 
> भउ जनम मरणा मेटिओ गुर सबदी हरि असथिरु सेवि सुखि समघा ॥१॥
> Bẖa▫o janam marṇā meti▫o gur sabḏī har asthir sev sukẖ samgẖā. ||1||
> ...


_The fear of birth and death are removed in comfort of creator’s understanding and submersion._



> ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਭਜੁ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਅਤਿ ਪਿਰਘਾ ॥
> 
> मेरे मन भजु राम नाम अति पिरघा ॥
> Mere man bẖaj rām nām aṯ pirgẖā.
> ...


_My mind study with love the creator’s understanding._



> ਮੈ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਅਰਪਿ ਧਰਿਓ ਗੁਰ ਆਗੈ ਸਿਰੁ ਵੇਚਿ ਲੀਓ ਮੁਲਿ ਮਹਘਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> 
> मै मनु तनु अरपि धरिओ गुर आगै सिरु वेचि लीओ मुलि महघा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
> Mai man ṯan arap ḏẖari▫o gur āgai sir vecẖ lī▫o mul mahgẖā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
> ...


_I sacrificed my body and mind and actually struck a great bargain by offering my head in return for creator’s understanding._



> ਨਰਪਤਿ ਰਾਜੇ ਰੰਗ ਰਸ ਮਾਣਹਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਪਕੜਿ ਖੜੇ ਸਭਿ ਕਲਘਾ ॥
> 
> नरपति राजे रंग रस माणहि बिनु नावै पकड़ि खड़े सभि कलघा ॥
> Narpaṯ rāje rang ras māṇėh bin nāvai pakaṛ kẖaṛe sabẖ kalgẖā.
> ...


_The worldly Kings and monarchs are engulfed in worldly pleasures only to be taken away at death._



> ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਸਿਰਿ ਡੰਡੁ ਲਗਾਨਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਨੇ ਹਥ ਫਲਘਾ ॥੨॥
> 
> धरम राइ सिरि डंडु लगाना फिरि पछुताने हथ फलघा ॥२॥
> Ḏẖaram rā▫e sir dand lagānā fir pacẖẖuṯāne hath falgẖā. ||2||
> ...


_In judgment of creator they find lot to regret._



> ਹਰਿ ਰਾਖੁ ਰਾਖੁ ਜਨ ਕਿਰਮ ਤੁਮਾਰੇ ਸਰਣਾਗਤਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਲਘਾ ॥
> 
> हरि राखु राखु जन किरम तुमारे सरणागति पुरख प्रतिपलघा ॥
> Har rākẖ rākẖ jan kiram ṯumāre sarṇāgaṯ purakẖ parṯipalagẖā.
> ...


_Oh the great savior creator we are at your feet save your humble followers._



> ਦਰਸਨੁ ਸੰਤ ਦੇਹੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਲੋਚ ਪੂਰਿ ਜਨੁ ਤੁਮਘਾ ॥੩॥
> 
> दरसनु संत देहु सुखु पावै प्रभ लोच पूरि जनु तुमघा ॥३॥
> Ḏarsan sanṯ ḏeh sukẖ pāvai parabẖ locẖ pūr jan ṯumgẖā. ||3||
> ...


_Let me, the humble follower, fulfill the longing and enjoy your realization._



> ਤੁਮ ਸਮਰਥ ਪੁਰਖ ਵਡੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਕੀਜੈ ਦਾਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਮਘਾ ॥
> 
> तुम समरथ पुरख वडे प्रभ सुआमी मो कउ कीजै दानु हरि निमघा ॥
> Ŧum samrath purakẖ vade parabẖ su▫āmī mo ka▫o kījai ḏān har nimgẖā.
> ...


_Creator, the highest master, bless me even for blink of an eye._



> ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ਹਮ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਸਦ ਘੁਮਘਾ ॥੪॥੨॥
> 
> जन नानक नामु मिलै सुखु पावै हम नाम विटहु सद घुमघा ॥४॥२॥
> Jan Nānak nām milai sukẖ pāvai ham nām vitahu saḏ gẖumgẖā. ||4||2||
> ...


_Humble Guru Nanak, one who understands the creator finds comfort, I forever offer all of me to the creator’s understanding._

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> ESSENCE:  Guru ji discuss the importance of seeking creator’s understanding.  Lot of mental clarity, comfort and happiness is associated with such.  The flip side is that even the mightiest of the mighty will eventually regret ignoring such.  Guru ji jokingly compare that he traded his head, suggesting it to be a great bargain, to buy creator’s understanding.


  All errors are mine and I stand corrected.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 21, 2011)

HARRY HALLAR ji,
Gurbani messages are only for NAAMu.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 21, 2011)

> ESSENCE: Guru ji discuss the importance of seeking creator’s understanding. Lot of mental clarity, comfort and happiness is associated with such. The flip side is that even the mightiest of the mighty will eventually regret ignoring such. Guru ji jokingly compare that he traded his head, suggesting it to be a great bargain, to buy creator’s understanding



Veer Ji ,No matter what the shabad ,the essence to me is always:

WaheGuru... WaheGuru...WaheGuru... ofcourse the particulars of each Shabad will be different.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 21, 2011)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> No matter what the shabad the essence to me is always:
> 
> WaheGuru... WaheGuru...WaheGuru...


Sinner veer ji you are very right in the above.

In a way the word carries same connotation as "Allah is Great" in Islam.

Only catch is what is meant by "Guru" in "WaheGuru".  

Let us look at couple of understandings,

1.  If Guru refers to Creator we know then we are saying "Creator is Great" and we also know very well as per Gurbani that creator cannot be full known.  Hence we are saying "Great" without knowing what but I can settle for saying so as we marvel at the creator in awe and some understanding or plain awe is fine too.

2.  There is also an equally valid interpretation to say in light of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and in "Waheguru" praise the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  This is also very possible and perhaps understood and practiced by many when they utter "Waheguru".  The question again comes up whether "Waheguru" is a word for respect or respectful statement based on one's understanding what one understands from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  It could simply be again in terms of respect or some understanding or part of both.  Again it is OK for me to accept or relate to.

When we follow someone, for example "Waheguru" simran it is important for leader of such simran to clarify what we are doing in terms of the above so at least one is aware as otherwise following is of no consequence as you don't know what you are following.

What do you think when you do "Waheguru Waheguru" or you don't relate it to nothing and let it be?

Sat Sri Akal.


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## ksandhu83 (Nov 21, 2011)

Horoscope is a prediction about future but hukamnama is totally different. what i think is hukamnama is our daily homework like student gets from school. so we need to practice that while doing our daily life things and one day we will bring all the guidance of guru ji in our life style. we can't implement whole guru granth sahib ji in one day. asking question from guru ji is not bad as guru je ordered "Guru Granth ke maneyo partakh guru ke deh" 
now the level of question depends on our awastha. if we start living our life under guru's hukam then all questions will vanish. what should i ask god for my whole life is already planned let god handle it. " hukame ander sab ko bahar hukam na koi" When ever "I" comes to our daily life then only questions start arising. it is the initial stage of bhagti it could only be crossed with simran or meditation then all questions will go away.
is one horoscope for whole man kind ????????? but one hukam nama is for all the man kind.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 21, 2011)

> What do you think when you do "Waheguru Waheguru" or you don't relate it to nothing and let it be


 
Veer ji _I don't do it ,I don't think it ,I don't relate it ,I don't let it be,now do you see that it thinks me_.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 21, 2011)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer ji _I don't do it ,I don't think it ,I don't relate it ,I don't let it be,now do you see that it thinks me_.



Thank you veer ji.  That is just peachy too.  As 6.88 billion people don't do it like us either or at least use the exact word "Waheguru" and they are no less part of creation.

 mundahug

Sat Sri Akal


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 21, 2011)

> If I ask for a Hukamnana to give me advice on what to do with my life, is that not asking for a miracle? is not that requesting some sort of magical power to point me the way to the answer?



Harry ji
It is only magic if one does not understand the trick. (though the trick must still be performed even after it is understood, otherwise what use is there in understanding it) Once you understand that the magician had the bunny in the hat all along, is it still magic?

The trick is that opening up to a random page and selecting a shabad is more likely to bring the attention of the reader to the shabad, and that which the shabad describes/prescribes. This conscious awareness of the shabad then becomes the grounding conscious awareness throughout the day. 
As SP ji says, the essence of all shabad is "waheguru waheguru waheguru..." the grounding conscious awareness.

It is magic when the trick works out correctly. It is true that you have the bunny, the conscious awareness all along and that you could simply pull the bunny out of any old hat, any ritual. You may choose to follow this traditional ritual or you may choose to follow your own rituals. But to pull the bunny out of this one hat specifically is tradition and it brings people together in congregations. 

And you know the importance of congregations...

PS A friend your age suggested that I stick to art but I want to get better with analogies and figurative language. It's fun! Hope this one made more sense to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism <-- check this out too.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 21, 2011)

> at least use the exact word "Waheguru" and


 
Ambarsaria Ji That was an example what I meant is Naam,whatever comes naturally say it in thought ,he knows his name,even if you don't say it, he hears it,you know how unorthdox Sikh I am so you must realise that is not what I call him,but if you are praying to the Universe like some Sikhs have taken to doing then I guess you should call him matter or antimatter, but in any case it won't matter.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 21, 2011)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Ambarsaria Ji That was an example what I meant is Naam,whatever comes naturally say it in thought ,he knows his name,even if you don't say it, he hears it,you know how unorthdox Sikh I am so you must realise that is not what I call him,but if you are praying to the Universe like some Sikhs have taken to doing then I guess you should call him matter or antimatter, but in any case it won't matter.


Veer I am OK with that.  It must perhaps be few thousand times uttered Waheguru with different understandings and contexts.

Is matter anti-matter like Christ and anti-Christ!  I did not know that you have scientific interests.

My posts are more to share thoughts for younger folks at times and trigger hopefully some reflective thinking.  Sometimes these are pretty cheap, low and arrogant too so I seek forgiveness.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:*  Now what did Bhagat Singh ji do to his avatar picture.  Just because Harry did not like it now we got what I don't like  mundahug .  Now who would not like ascarlet flower, easy way out SP ji  lol


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 21, 2011)

Hahaha!

Let me try something else.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 21, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Hahaha!
> 
> Let me try something else.


No worries veer I like the devious smirk  lol.  I actually like it.

Sat Sri Akal


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 21, 2011)

Does a devious smirk work on Guru Nanak as he squeezes one roti to reveal blood and the other to reveal milk? I guess in some way it does.

(A painting I was working on earlier this year from which I cropped out the avatar.)

Edit: I am not sure how it is a devious smirk actually!?


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 21, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Edit: I am not sure how it is a devious smirk actually!?


It is off topic so anyone can delete it.  But devious smirk is eyes looking lower, mild furrows on the forehead and less than half a smile.  Yes it will fit the milk/blood dichotomy theme rather than say an anger look at blood and blissful at milk.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 21, 2011)

"Good" , "Bad" and "so-so" Hukmanmahs are the result of ritual behaviour. Today its so common to hear people say..I paid the Granthi so much, donated so much to the Goluck..and still got a "bad" hukmnamah....hence the Granthis pay so much attention to give what is expected/demanded...for a person supposedly thanking Guru Ji for a son..new buisness venture..new house...etc etc the Guru has to declare..."Lakh khushian patshahiahn..je satgur nadar kareh..OR the person will be sorely disappointed that the Guru is not "happy" for him or sharing his happiness !! Hence the Granthi makes SURE the Guru says what Hes SUPPOSED TO !! And woe to the GURU IF his Hukmnamah declares Lakh Khusishn patshahin when the person is grieving for a dead son, loss of a court case.....IN THAT case the Granthi who has been well prepared by information provided beforehand...then ensures the GURU issues the most appropriate Hukmnamah that will "give comfort" as expected...


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## Harry Haller (Nov 22, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Harry ji
> It is only magic if one does not understand the trick. (though the trick must still be performed even after it is understood, otherwise what use is there in understanding it) Once you understand that the magician had the bunny in the hat all along, is it still magic?
> 
> The trick is that opening up to a random page and selecting a shabad is more likely to bring the attention of the reader to the shabad, and that which the shabad describes/prescribes. This conscious awareness of the shabad then becomes the grounding conscious awareness throughout the day.
> ...




I thought about this thread till the early hours, the argument I was trying to make was that there was enough pragmatic information in the SGGS to explain most things, I have now come up with rational explanations for most of the Sikhi traditions, hair, booze, etc, and everything makes a sense without even a tiny drop of spiritualism or mysticism, however, although I live life pretty much as I wish, and balance that with an attempt to enrich Creation with as of my input as I can, and that is my life, but there is something missing, a void that never gets filled, I attempt to smooth it over with help from the five thieves, but as I start filling it, it empties, filling a void like this with the thieves help is a pointless and destructive task, yet, to embrace the mystical and spiritual aspect of Sikhism, which would be the logical next step, is closed to me, why? and it is this question I asked myself last night, Why is this step closed to me, surely it could be the most enriching thing I have ever discovered about Sikhism, Surely it is the icing on the cake, to have a full and strong connection established in my head to the essence, so Why not?

The answer is easy, it is fear, I fear the connection, and I fear it because as soon as I have that connection, then me, Harry, must die, the personality that I am, can not continue if this connection goes ahead, for most of my lifestyle would not be in line with a complete connection, I would certainly become the person I wish to be, but that person is so far away from who I am, that who I am would cease, and I do not wish to die just yet, I like having the thieves round for a good old party, not often, but sometimes, it is only to my self that I behave like this, to others I am a good sikh, but I am not to myself, so there it is, Fear.........


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 22, 2011)

harry haller said:


> The answer is easy, it is fear, I fear the connection, and I fear it because as soon as I have that connection, then me, Harry, must die, the personality that I am, can not continue if this connection goes ahead, for most of my lifestyle would not be in line with a complete connection, I would certainly become the person I wish to be, but that person is so far away from who I am, that who I am would cease, and I do not wish to die just yet, I like having the thieves round for a good old party, not often, but sometimes, it is only to my self that I behave like this, to others I am a good sikh, but I am not to myself, so there it is, Fear.........



Very well though of and authored post.!
Harry the Great , shall never die ;his personality shall remain intact if he so wishes. 
I have not reached that stage in my life that should have compelled me to analyze the things so objectively. If you have reached that stage ,where you think you can _connect_ with the higher Ups, the next logical aspect is to proceed ahead or Ascend. This is the path shown to us by Guru Sahibs. I am no one to tell you things that you can analyze so well. 
The next stage of having a direct connection is naturally the stage that should logically happen to a man. We have five realms in Jap ji sahib. I might be yet in the basest of all the realms that I cannot find out where I am. You are lucky Harry ji that you can take your bearings and decide for yourself. Being at a level much below I cannot react to your post in any other manner except to state that you should always be in ascending mode and take your chances. One can always descend ,probably, as it is the natural human tendency. Law of gravity also states the same.
I don's think if this makes any sense to a person who, himself knows, the path and has not decided to walk it over.
Bhul Chuk Mauf


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## Harry Haller (Nov 22, 2011)

Taranjeetji, 

Why would I want my personality to remain intact?, although I am fond of it, in the same way one is fond of an extremely old Range Rover, both are dinosaurs, ancient relics that belong in a scrap heap, impractical, it is only when I catch sight of myself in a mirror, and see the chubby, balding, hairy face looking back at me, I realise that I am not 20 anymore, I realise that one should not be taking a 1994 car through mud and snow, no, it is time, I feel rather like a baby does, I imagine, that is about to be born, I like it here in the womb, its warm, and cosy, and more important, its familiar, 

Many thanks for your post Taranjeetji, although really, you do me an injustice with your compliments, everything I know has been beaten into me, with great force, till I could know no different, I admire the purity in people like yourself, and the way that you walk this road out of choice, out of love, happily, I walk this road, because I have walked all the other roads and found a good beating at the end of each one, there is no purity, what has been done, has been done, it is now time to give consideration to a slight ascending, thank you very much for your thoughts


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 22, 2011)

And people who look for "answers" to wordly "problems" via Hukmnamahs are not really interested in what the Guru says but how to adapt it to their problem...superficial and surface meanings and connotations of words in Gurbani...a person looking to remember his dead mother gets hukmnamah Poota mata kee asees and thinks..WAH..the Guru knows how i miss my mummy...thats why this Hkmnamah came out..I have dealt with hundreds of such people...they want the Hukmnamah to clearly and in simple punjabi tell them..YES..you will succeed at the interview and get that job..YES you will pass the exam..yes your dad wont pass away in the hospital..etc etc...just like so many have been wanting the Guru to inofrm them that Meat eating is taboo..and daal eating makes the Guru happy beyond description...I too was at this stage once..many many moons ago...I had three of ythe best Universities in hand and couldnt decide which to accept....os I wrote all 3 on pieces of paper, went to the Gurdwara did an ardass and took a hukmnamah...and picked the paper...OOPS..the first one had the Uni i really didnt want THAT MUCH...so i rolled up the 3 papers..did another ardass..took another Hukmanmah..and opened the second piece of paper..OOPS again..wrong uni...so i went at it for a THIRD TIME..and Lo and behold Guru gave the RIGHT ANSWER..his Hukmanmah directed me to "choose" the uni I really loved !!...I went through the same process when choosing my subjects to major in...and when deciding what job to accept from the invites....so YES I beleive I did every step according to Gurus Hukm !! only NOW i know BETTER...


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 23, 2011)

harry haller said:


> I thought about this thread till the early hours, the argument I was trying to make was that there was enough pragmatic information in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to explain most things, I have now come up with rational explanations for most of the Sikhi traditions, hair, booze, etc, and everything makes a sense without even a tiny drop of spiritualism or mysticism, however, although I live life pretty much as I wish, and balance that with an attempt to enrich Creation with as of my input as I can, and that is my life, but there is something missing, a void that never gets filled, I attempt to smooth it over with help from the five thieves, but as I start filling it, it empties, filling a void like this with the thieves help is a pointless and destructive task, yet, to embrace the mystical and spiritual aspect of Sikhism, which would be the logical next step, is closed to me, why? and it is this question I asked myself last night, Why is this step closed to me, surely it could be the most enriching thing I have ever discovered about Sikhism, Surely it is the icing on the cake, to have a full and strong connection established in my head to the essence, so Why not?
> 
> The answer is easy, it is fear, I fear the connection, and I fear it because as soon as I have that connection, then me, Harry, must die, the personality that I am, can not continue if this connection goes ahead, for most of my lifestyle would not be in line with a complete connection, I would certainly become the person I wish to be, but that person is so far away from who I am, that who I am would cease, and I do not wish to die just yet, I like having the thieves round for a good old party, not often, but sometimes, it is only to my self that I behave like this, to others I am a good sikh, but I am not to myself, so there it is, Fear.........


Harry ji,
How did you come to that realization?


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 23, 2011)

harry haller said:


> I thought about this thread till the early hours, the argument I was trying to make was that there was enough pragmatic information in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to explain most things, I have now come up with rational explanations for most of the Sikhi traditions, hair, booze, etc, and everything makes a sense without even a tiny drop of spiritualism or mysticism, however, although I live life pretty much as I wish, and balance that with an attempt to enrich Creation with as of my input as I can, and that is my life, but there is something missing, a void that never gets filled, I attempt to smooth it over with help from the five thieves, but as I start filling it, it empties, filling a void like this with the thieves help is a pointless and destructive task, yet, to embrace the mystical and spiritual aspect of Sikhism, which would be the logical next step, is closed to me, why? and it is this question I asked myself last night, Why is this step closed to me, surely it could be the most enriching thing I have ever discovered about Sikhism, Surely it is the icing on the cake, to have a full and strong connection established in my head to the essence, so Why not?
> 
> The answer is easy, it is fear, I fear the connection, and I fear it because as soon as I have that connection, then me, Harry, must die, the personality that I am, can not continue if this connection goes ahead, for most of my lifestyle would not be in line with a complete connection, I would certainly become the person I wish to be, but that person is so far away from who I am, that who I am would cease, and I do not wish to die just yet, I like having the thieves round for a good old party, not often, but sometimes, it is only to my self that I behave like this, to others I am a good sikh, but I am not to myself, so there it is, Fear.........


Harry Haller ji the explanation is pretty straightforward and I think I got it.  With of course in a sense, it is with various taints of the five thieves I so submit.

The so called five thieves are making a proposition and have stated a case to your soul.  They feel a losing battle and so they are in a compromising mindset.  Such are saying let us call a truce, don't kill us, life is not all about that.  I have some sympathy for them and the reason follows.

Basically at this juncture in your stated description one can take two approaches.



 Balanced Control of the Thieves
This will let you have continuity to Harry that you have lived with so far.  Not only for yourself but also for your relatives and spouse.  If you have control and teach the thieves a lesson every once in a while to enforce "Thief Control" you could continue in a steady state continuity of life that you and others can recognize and relate to.

Not the best of best goals in some people's mind but it is so from your brother Ambarsaria and you give something for others to look up to.​2. Elimination of the five ThievesI find this concept actually very dangerous.  I may offend some people but I will say what I feel.

This will create a Harry who has discontinuity.  A perennial fight to always verify if the thieves are eliminated.  How do you know something is not there unless someone else tests you for this, I do not know.  So self test is a mirage that many people try to chase in a make believe fashion but it really is a mirage.  One cannot be "Judge and Jury".

So how this state plays out.  You will be unknowing as anyone wanting to Judge you have to be better than you or at least know what is meant by absolute "Zero" state of all thieves.  I do not believe such people exist or at least I don't know any including all that I have met here or outside.

So this is not practical Sikhism that I know of.  It is preached pretty heavily but our Gurus never taught us to live sterile lives.

By the way if anyone has achieved stage 2 living, they cannot claim to be so as that is tinge of five thieves that will show up in any such statement.  ​Chill out, maintain and gradually work to improve but don't panic or become idealistic.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 23, 2011)

Ambarsaria ji,

I think your #1 falls in to the same trap as #2, when do you have balance?? "A perennial fight to always verify if there is balanced control" How do you check for such balance without tests? Who will test you?

I think of these things as a continuum, where on one end there is most influence of five thieves possible and on the other end, there is the least influence of five thieves.


Harry ji,
One can tell which mind states and actions are coming from thieves and which ones are genuinely without thiefs. But first One must cultivate the awareness to first recognize the five thieves when they arise during actions and meditation. Then when they do, with further practice of meditation and certain actions, one can settle the mind down (as it is agitated when the five thieves come forth).

Most people don't do this. The five thieves come out (they are not even aware of them) then they simply act with the agitated mind. I think eventually with meditation and acts of humility, one gets better at doing this.


Ambarsaria ji,
You do not need to get special tests. Tests are always present in life, they come and go. The idea is to be prepared for a test by doing small quizzes that are present in everyday life.

Here are my observations on the no-thief state of mind:
I have noticed when Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji starts to suddenly make more sense, not like "I get it" but a sort of bliss that is present with the "I get it" then I find I am in the no-thief state. I think if one can learn to recognize this no-thief state, it might help.

Right when you sneeze there is the no-thief state or when the sneeze is about to come out but is delayed, and but not when it gets delayed too long (then you are wondering "What the f?").

When it is dark and there is some unexpected noise, immediately your attention goes to the noise and to the silence afterwards. Right when this event occurs there is the no-thief state but then fear brings in Haumai...

And if you have been practising meditation. When the mind becomes still and silent, that is the no-thief state.

You just gotta work towards cultivating this state of mind. It is like a basketball player trying to get better at basketball. He notices with somethings he does, he can get a better, quicker and/or more accurate shot. He tries to do those things more, until they become his nature. A coach is going to help him more and is the best option but it is possible to become good on your own or with a book on basketball or listening to good players talk about their practices.

Just as your sports coach need not be the best basketball player. You simply need to find someone who is better than you in controlling their thieves, like a moral coach. Unfortunately, to identify them you already need to be at their level (This is of course true of sports coaches as well. You cannot tell what a good coach is like because you do not know what "good" is yet. That is what you are learning in the first place).

I remember you mention Thich Nhat Hanh once. After you did, I looked him up and listened to one of his talks. He is pretty good. He gave some tips on how to lower Ego levels when acting in human relationships, though certain phrases you say to yourself and others in different situations. Powerful stuff. 
How can you say none exist, after you mentioned Thich Nhat Hanh! How was your experience with him?

Gurbani says that if you can come in direct contact with such a Guru, such a moral coach then it will speed up your progress exponentially. But even listening to their talks and practising their tips is great. There is Sant Singh Maskeen (expired but talks are still available), Eckhart Tolle, Mooji, Shinzen Young (whom you can actually come into direct contact with) and lots more  (I can't remember them off the top of my head). In the internet age, we have lost direct contact but we have more coaches available to us.

There is also Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Bhagwad Gita, Dao De Ching, amongst others. Books are similar to talks as no direct contact is available with either. They describe the states that need to be cultivated, and often times lead you to them as you read.



> they cannot claim to be so as that is tinge of five thieves that will show up in any such statement.


Hahaha that is true to some extent. But our Gurus have made such statements in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. How come you believe them?


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## Harry Haller (Nov 23, 2011)

BhagatSingh said:


> Harry ji,
> How did you come to that realization?



 because I am a drama queen, the way to understanding and enlightenment would be too boring without clowns, wolves, dwarfs, thieves, and the obligatory internal struggle complete with grand gestures of death and conflict


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## Harry Haller (Nov 23, 2011)

Gurfateh friends

The answer lies in the three replies by Ambersariaji, Bhagatsinghji and Taranjeetji, 

1. Balanced Control of thieves
2. Cultivate periods of non-thief states
3. Ascend but be prepared to descend

Of course this all means nothing unless one is prepared to live by it, the saying 4 steps forward and 1 step backwards comes to mind, but then this has to be better than 4 steps forward and 8 steps backwards, I suppose scenario #2 is 4 steps forward and then another step forward, which does on the face of it, sound impossible, Many Thanks for your help and advice, I will once again retreat to my head to play around with all the many switches and dials, put a few things on a timer setting, pull the fuse out of a few, and nail a few in the on position,


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 23, 2011)

> 1. Balanced Control of thieves
> 2. Cultivate periods of non-thief states
> 3. Ascend but be prepared to descend


 
Veer Ji A Saint is called a Saint for a reason and it is not because he balances for a short period and then prepares to descend. 

In punjabi the saying is that 'The cat goes to Haji only after killing 900 mice',perhaps you are only on 750 yet and that is why you are afraid.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 23, 2011)

Scarlet Pimpernel said:


> Veer Ji A Saint is called a Saint for a reason and it is not because he balances for a short period and then prepares to descend.
> 
> In punjabi the saying is that 'The cat goes to Haji only after killing 900 mice',perhaps you are only on 750 yet and that is why you are afraid.




That is the subtle difference between us SPji, I have no wish to be a saint, or indeed anything, I just want to live :sippingcoffeemunda:


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 23, 2011)

Veer Ji A Sikh is a Saint-Soldier, I want you to live too ,but you have mistaken death for life but don't worry so has the rest of the world.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 23, 2011)

Spji, 

I will be the best sant sipahi I can be, but be careful you do not aspire to be dead whilst you are still alive peacesignkaur


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 23, 2011)

Veer Ji Quote '_The minimum requirement to achieving anything is [simply] to believe that it can be done'_,you are stubborn that will be an asset tommorow but it is a liability today.

Times up


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## Harry Haller (Nov 23, 2011)

Brother " I don't care to _belong to a club_ that accepts people like me as members", Groucho Marx lol


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 23, 2011)

Veer Ji You are just returning to the club of yourself,before you were a member of the club of desire,you are now free !,dance ,make merry, you are your self again, it is as it was intended,I too feel sad sometimes ,thats ok, because it is sadness that gets you there faster than happiness and then you will dance with your hands in the air like Fatman Scoop except without the dollar bills.


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## Taranjeet singh (Nov 23, 2011)

Harry Veer ji,
If my post is suggestive of that you may have to descend unwillingly, I seek your forgiveness. I never meant to state that. We are not  psycho analysts. I write very plain English. But written words may sometimes convey to the receiver what one intends to receive.

All that was stated in the post was to suggest that ascending is a very gradual process and and is time consuming and one need not worry about what we say. The path chosen by you would be objectively speaking, a subjective decision of the individual concerned.
If one finds the ascending mode cumbersome one can always come back to the original state ;if one finds that _connect_ is not easily possible. One can imagine that coming back to original state is not or should not be a difficult task. There is no chemical change involved in this.
I would like to share with you further...
Personally speaking. I find it very difficult to have a cold water shower at Amritvella, hence for a person like me it is not possible to rise from a level where I am. All I can do is to read bani and try to understand it and also try to be good human being. That is my outer limit. I have no aspiration beyond this.
 I am also not a Nitnemi i.e adhering to the schedule of Five Paaths a day. I am lucky if I can do Jap ji sahib every morning. 

But that should not stop me from going a step forward.It would be a personal choice.Tomorrow I may try a cold shower in the morning but if I find inconvenient I would stop. It would be my choice and not anyone else. I would ascend and descend as per my liking. If I can continue further, I would, else I have options. It would be voluntary.

Kindly take my earlier post in that spirit. Who am I to suggest that you may have to descend or that you may apprehend so?  
All that was meant was to let you know that if you find that _connect_ is not working well, you have the options to have the garb of personality that you wear now. It is your life ,Sir. You have all the Rights and prerogatives to carry on that you like.

Warm Regards
and Bhul Chuk Mauf


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 23, 2011)

Veer Bhagat Singh ji some comments,


BhagatSingh said:


> I think your #1 falls in to the same trap as #2, when do you have balance?? "A perennial fight to always verify if there is balanced control" How do you check for such balance without tests? Who will test you?
> 
> I think of these things as a continuum, where on one end there is most influence of five thieves possible and on the other end, there is the least influence of five thieves.


_Bhagat Singh ji #1 does not fall into the same trap as you are a self judge of relative.  If honestly done this is the easiest of all._




> Ambarsaria ji,
> You do not need to get special tests. Tests are always present in life, they come and go. The idea is to be prepared for a test by doing small quizzes that are present in everyday life.
> 
> Here are my observations on the no-thief state of mind:
> I have noticed when Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji starts to suddenly make more sense, not like "I get it" but a sort of bliss that is present with the "I get it" then I find I am in the no-thief state. I think if one can learn to recognize this no-thief state, it might help.


_I kind of agree with it to a limit.  We are always moving things aroud in conscious and subsconscious but assume it is a continuum too.  Just as it is not in forefron does not mean you are free from such.  It simply means it is not in active thought._



> Right when you sneeze there is the no-thief state or when the sneeze is about to come out but is delayed, and but not when it gets delayed too long (then you are wondering "What the f?").


_Same as above.  Logic needs to stand the test of rigor.  Say one is holding the hand of someone in lust.  You don't let go of the hand as you sneeze in your arm.  That does not mean the thief "Lust" is not there in action.  It also kind of relates to an analogy of how people use snuff to snort in India.  You get a sneeze but I suppose those folks never realized it cleaned more than their noses lol_

Sat Sri Akal and thanks for the dialog.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 24, 2011)

Taranjeet singh said:


> Harry Veer ji,
> If my post is suggestive of that you may have to descend unwillingly, I seek your forgiveness. I never meant to state that. We are not  psycho analysts. I write very plain English. But written words may sometimes convey to the receiver what one intends to receive.
> 
> All that was stated in the post was to suggest that ascending is a very gradual process and and is time consuming and one need not worry about what we say. The path chosen by you would be objectively speaking, a subjective decision of the individual concerned.
> ...



Both your earlier post and also this post show a maturity of thinking that I admire, to me, it stated that I should not worry about being one state or another, and just to do the best I can, and let it flow, I aspire after a higher state, whether I can carry it off is another question, but its not like moving to Oklahoma, I mean, I am not stuck there, I can flit between states and just try spending more time there, in non thief land, excellent post brother


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