# Women In Sikhi



## Navdeep88 (Nov 19, 2011)

I have an issue that's troubling me... It seems like not only in Sikh History but the current identity of Sikhi is shaped heavily by men. Recently, there was a pole on here about who the most influential figures were in Sikh History... not a single woman on the list. And usually the only woman who gets credit is Mai Bhago, sadly I think it's because she stepped into what was considered a male role.




 

Why are women overlooked so often in Sikh History? I don't have an issue with having 10 fathers, at all. But why are women shoved so far behind... they're virtually voiceless. And when a woman DOES have a voice (ie. Maharani Jinda), its almost shown to be off putting or unfeminine. Often times, a lamenting female is shown to be more acceptable... is that still the accepted idea of femininity??

This is also prevalent today. I speak from what I am exposed to: there is a growing culture of Sikh male rappers. Why is it that they can have the image of a Sikh, be lauded for what they're doing, preach about this and that and still make songs about how they want a girl with nice lips and nice hips? Or act like a woman supposed to be revolving around a man, like that's her sole role in life. Say things like "I'm the earth and she's the moon, and God's the sun." Yea, right. How about co-planets??

What are your thoughts on this issue? Sikhi's supposed to be about equality, and self-sufficiency... why do these archaic ideas have so much weight and are totally acceptable?


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Nov 19, 2011)

> And usually the only woman who gets credit is Mai Bhago, sadly I think it's because she stepped into what was considered a male role.


 
That's a very interesting observation. But whenever I read about her, I see a Sikh who took up arms to protect her Guru and left everything behind to run to the battle field!



> But why are women shoved so far behind... they're virtually voiceless.


 
That is not true if we see it from Gurbani point of view.



> Often times, a lamenting female is shown to be more acceptable... is that still the accepted idea of femininity??


 
It is hard to say what subset are you trying to observe. But yes in Indian, Punjabi and most male psyche, that is kind of true. Many men find assertive women a bit 'attractive' but only as long as they don't assert themselves on them.



> Why is it that they can have the image of a Sikh, be lauded for what they're doing, preach about this and that and still make songs about how they want a girl with nice lips and nice hips?


 
Hehe there is free will, but I don't approve of it.



> Or act like a woman supposed to be revolving around a man, like that's her sole role in life. Say things like "I'm the earth and she's the moon, and God's the sun." Yea, right. How about co-planets??


 
Hmm that is indeed very true. Most of the people would have that view of life (even if they don't consider themselves to be the sun!). The Anand Karaj does not talk about someone revolving around something. It talks about merging. Becoming one.



> What are your thoughts on this issue? Sikhi's supposed to be about equality, and self-sufficiency... why do these archaic ideas have so much weight and are totally acceptable?


 
I have teenage punjabi girls telling me, that while their brothers are encouraged to drink with the family, they are asked not to do so at all. Why is this happening? Well you all can guess how that girl feels and how she rebels.

I once wanted my cousin to mention this to her father 'Why are you being forced to become a doctor while your brother is allowed to go for business undergrad?' She never asked and although her father got easy on her soon, I knew he was being partial in the beginning.

Why in the world we have different expectations from our daughters, sisters and mothers? While we are different towards our brothers, sons and fathers?

I don't know. I have no idea how much of a sexist I am myself..

But I know how much my mom is responsible for giving me Sikh values. She is the first and most important person as far as my religion is concerned. I remember when I was small, she would read at least 2 saakhis every night before I went to sleep. She taught me Punjabi, and the Baanis of Japuji Sahib, Rehras Sahib etc. She always took me to Bangla Sahib every sunday and almost daily in the evening to local Gurudwara. She took such good care of my hair, she washed and combed it properly, kept it uncut for me, such that I have now really beautiful tresses (though I cannot manage them so well on my own!). She still makes Karah Prasad on every sangraand/gurupurab and does Sehaj Paath on and on for the family. She has taught me the value of honesty, truth and being fearless. She never took up the caste we had, and made sure that it was not included in my name on birth certificate. And yes, all the while we had walks around the colony, we would talk endlessly about Sikhi. The women who saw their children getting killed and into a garland around them, had no names. Yet they are an ever lasting symbol of importance of mothers in Sikhi. Men just hop from one age to another, taking support from mother and sisters in young age, wife while he's an adult and daughters while he is going old. So women are very much a fabric of Sikhi, today and tomorrow.

If those archaic ideas have more weight and acceptablilty, then these facts have total immovability of hills and zero deniability.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Nov 20, 2011)

I have heard myself compared to our beloved Mai Bhago whom I am named after, so perhaps I am a good woman to address this issue, although any Sikhni certainly could and I hope others will.

Sikhi as taught by our Gurus obviously teaches gender equality.  Unlike other teachings of the day and even today, women are held in high esteem in theory in Sikhi on a par with men.  So why, in practice, is Sikhi so very sexist?

I think there are two related reasons.  The first is the Punjabi culture which is extremely patriarchal.  Although all eleven Gurus teach against sexist practices, they have been so far unable to break the hold of this aspect      which is actually the foundation of Punjabi culture.  Most Sikhs very jealously guard their Punjabi identity, often, even usually putting it before their Sikh identity.  This is most prevalent in Punjab itself where woman are not allowed to sing kirtan or do much of the sewa in Darbar Sahib (Amritsar) itself!  In addition, of course, is the whole concept of honour (izzat) which is dumped squarely onto the females of the family.  Things that young  males do with impunity are highly detrimental, sometimes even fatal, to their sisters.  Certainly these gender specific beliefs have no place in the Sikhi taught by our Gurus, but until the time that Sikhs are willing to let go of the negative aspects of Punjabi culture, the women will continue to be discriminated against in a variety of ways.  The rules are generally less rigidly enforced in the diaspora, but even in North America, where I live, Singhs often feel free to beat and otherwise mistreat their wives and the wives keep quiet, knowing that they would, at best, be held responsible for their husbands bad behaviour.  (Note:  I just today read an interesting report about smoking and drinking among young people from South Asian cultures in Britain.  I recommend reading it.  I found it fascinating.  (http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/634/1/WRAP_Bradby_Aunties_Asians.pdf)

The second and related reason is our "rulebook," the Sikh Rehat Maryada itself.  As an amritdhari Sikh, I feel that I am bound to follow it - and I do - but I am not blind to its faults;  it is an incredibly sexist document, a reflection of both the worst of Punjabi and of British cuture.  If it seems that I am being harsh, just read the section on Anand Karaj.  Aside from the obvious symbolism of the boy leading the girl in all four lavaans, we find references, such as, " A Sikh's daughter must be married to a Sikh" (What about a Sikh's son?)and "A baptised ought to get his wife also baptised" (Might not the amritdhari wife get the husband "baptised"?)  (I suggest reading the whole Chapter XI, Article XVIII.  In fact, I suggest reading the entire SRM.)

And, of course, men are mandated to wear the turban, while it is optional for women.  

Let me at this time acknowledge that while  there are other Maryadas currently being used, the SRM is generally accepted by most people calling themselves Sikhs. 

I do have solutions to both these problems.  I'm afraid my first suggestion will be very unpopular, but I see it as necessary.  If we cannot liberalise the Punjabi patriarchy - and we certainly haven't done so - it must be abandoned.  Clutching to its backward, sexist precepts not only harms our women and girls, it also prevents Sikhi from becoming a true world religion.  The world needs what we have.  What right have we to effectively exclude those of other cultures?   

Secondly, the SRM is badly in need of revision.  Given the very serious problems the Sikh Kaum is facing right now, this seems unlikely, but at some point, it must be undertaken.  

I realise that these ideas are controversial;  I simply see no alternative if we are to be the Sikhs the Gurus clearly expect us to be.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 20, 2011)

Navdeep ji,
Bibi Bhani 
Mata Gujri
Bibi Naneki
Mata Sahib Kaur
Mata Khivi
Sada Kaur
come to mind other than Mai Bhago and Rani Jindan.


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## Navdeep88 (Nov 20, 2011)

Kanwaljit Singh Ji,

I like what you've said about your mom, I would probably describe my mom in the same way. And I do agree with most of what you say but here's my issue: the roles of women are changing, especially in the west. Women have to work outside of the household, they are expected to. We dont have the luxury of just one role anymore: that of getting married, staying home and raising children. So if we have to take up this responsibility, if we have to put ourselves out there, maybe men need to realise that things are changing and it is as much on them to support us, as they expect us to support them. This change has significance, and it needs to be acknowledged. I'm not saying that women don't need men or vice versa, but I think most women these days do have some independent identity, have dreams, things to accomplish... and they want support, guidance etc. in carrying that out from the men in their lives.


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## Navdeep88 (Nov 20, 2011)

Bhagat Singh Ji, 

none of those names are mentioned here...  


http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/histo...st-influential-sikhs-history-why-suggest.html 

admin ji, perhaps a last category, for all the mothers and wives of the above influential figures?


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 20, 2011)

They are almost all men over on that forum Navdeep ji. 

Also I have contemplated these things for a while now. Here are my thoughts.

1. a) Women tend to work in the background like the quote "Behind every great man there is a great woman." The role of nurturing and raising children is perhaps the most important. They would manage the house in which the men dwell.  
ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਮੰਦਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਜੰਮਹਿ ਰਾਜਾਨ ॥
सो किउ मंदा आखीऐ जितु जमहि राजान ॥
So ki▫o manḏā ākẖī▫ai jiṯ jamėh rājān.
So why call her bad? From her, kings are born.

It goes much deeper still.

1. b) Women over millions of years of evolution have mated with men who were leaders and influential in their small tribes (kings). They have selected qualities in men that are apparent in the famous Sikh men of our history. Strong, dominant, brave, decisive, in control, protective of tribe, taking the lead <-- These qualities fit almost all men on that list. This hasn't changed, women are still attracted to men that display those qualities. The roles maybe changing but human psychology remains the same. In some areas, roles cannot change. Men can neither give birth to children nor feed them milk.

(The above also explains the Sikh Rehit Maryada. It's not sexist, it is simply an understanding of psychology and how society naturaly functions.)

2. Those without the qualities mentioned above tend to be forgotten as they are not in the front lines (those in front lines lead and they have a greater chance of becoming famous). Those who are going to lead will be remembered. This is why Mai Bhago is really famous. For example, you know Banda Singh Bahadur but do you know anyone else in his army? You know Banda Singh Bahadur but do you know his mom, who raised him?

3. And finally, as a society we seem to value the above mentioned qualities more than others because the famous figures of the history tend to possess them. In reality, these qualities are no more important than any other quality.


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## Naamsimiran (Nov 20, 2011)

Sat Nam
The representation of South Asian women, especially Sikh women, has been something that I have  been obsessed with since I was 9 years of age, even younger in fact. I  have questioned, debated, argued, thought and provoked conversation  about how women are represented, if they are represented and how can we  improve their representation. In 2008, I was given the opportunity to  explore some of my ideas through an Art Residency at Contact Theatre and  now in 2011, *I have been awarded studentship to investigate my ideas further through a MA Research Degree.*


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## Naamsimiran (Nov 20, 2011)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fatheh.
The title of my MA is: *The under-representation of women in Sikh visual culture.*  This is my starting point. I am sure it will unfold, shift and change  as I explore and find out new things. Growing up as a young Sikh girl, I  always noticed that in the Gudwaras and at the homes of my Sikh friends  and relatives, that women rarely or never were depicted in pictures of  Sikhism or in the history of Sikhism. Although things are in fact  changing, I want to research *herstory* and give a visual presence to the females of Sikhism and those powerful Sikh women today. I want to, by God grace, give Sikh women a voice. You can follow my research at : http://sabbikaur.tumblr.com/


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 20, 2011)

Just some observations if these add to the discourse.



> Mai Harinder Kaur ji
> 
> This is most prevalent in Punjab itself where woman are not allowed to sing kirtan or do much of the sewa in Darbar Sahib (Amritsar) itself!


_Bhain ji I just share my understanding from many years back.   I used to bike past a school on GT Road in Amritsar going towards Khalsa College Amritsar.  There was a school and such school trained future Kirtananiaen.  __I was told that much emphasis was placed in giving opportunity to people from so called lower classes and including some with handicaps like being blind._ _Much through the land the man had traditionally assumed or was assigned or expected to be performing the role of bread winner for the family.  So when I see a person doing Kirtan, specially originating from India, I see it as a job of winning bread for the family.  Kirtan is a job too for such people.

As times change and women get more recognized, rightfully at times, the main bread winner, I am sure the society including Sikhs will change or be left behind.  I believe it is OK to blame Punjabi culture, I challenge people to show how it is markedly different in Western culture.  It for sure is not as bad by a large measure, but rarely have I seen cases of men getting child support payments or custody and even in joint custody rarely is monetary award to a man.

Things are changing for the better and I believe it is important also to note some such observations.
_


> Mai Harinder Kaur ji
> 
> A Sikh's daughter must be married to a Sikh" (What about a Sikh's son?)and "A baptised ought to get his wife also baptised" (Might not the amritdhari wife get the husband "baptised"?) (I suggest reading the whole Chapter XI, Article XVIII. In fact, I suggest reading the entire SRM.)


_Bhain ji I agree 110% with you on the above.  I read it the same way and I kept my comments inside though quite perturbed to read it.  Much needs to be reviewed in SRM._



> Bhagat Singh ji
> 
> 1. a) Women tend to work in the background like the quote "Behind every great man there is a great woman." The role of nurturing and raising children is perhaps the most important. They would manage the house in which the men dwell.
> 
> ...


_Veer ji thanks for your post__.  I am much familiar with Gurbani line you quoted as my father provided written testimony along those lines when a man tried to somehow show a court in divorce and custody proceedings that only a Sikh man is capable of raising a son.  The judge sided with the mother and thoroughly rebuked the father.

However, equally your general post and Navdeep88 ji's post (Re: Few females in most admired thread) raise interesting point.  How many times a man has been identified in public to have raised a good son or daughter?  I know of very few to none.  Are men that oblivious in the raising of children?  I don't know but I just again pose it for scratching our heads, as I sure am!

_I don't want to generalize but, I will suggest that men and women in Sikhi, and in Punjabi culture,  are no different than men and women in any other religion in India if not in most other religions and places in the world.  It may be overt in some places and hidden in others.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Naamsimiran (Nov 20, 2011)

Sat Nam Ji. 

It is funny that Banda Singh Bahadur was mentioned, as I near to  finished an image of his wife, Susheel Kaur and the reason being is  that, yes we need to see, hear and learn about the women of Sikhi. Banda  Singh Bahadur's wife also went through the loss of her son and also did  not give up her faith. 

My humble response:

1. However the issues is not that women are or were in the background,  they are depicted/portrayed in the background. There is a very  interesting book called relocating gender in Sikh history:  Transformation, meaning and identity by Doris R. Jakokbsh.
*
Jakokbsh writes how a lot of historians were men and in India, men were  the literate ones, so usually wrote from a male perspective. (See  Jakokbsh's intro).

*As we now are in the 21st century, it is now important  to look at Sikh women from a more holistic perspective. This can be done  by also looking at the movement of Sikh men and women, the Imperialist  structures, what happen during the British Raj, Patriarchal systems and  migration. Sikh men and women had many things that affected them. 
*
*2. Not all cultures or situations have men as leaders.  There are in fact tribes were women and the dominant gender, possess  courage, strength. *In the African Aka tribe, the women go and hunt, while the men tend to the babies.* There is a great article in the Guardian about this tribe: 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/jun/15/childrensservices.familyandrelationships

There are other reasons too. But you can find this out by following my research
WJKK WJKF


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 20, 2011)

Sarbji Kaur ji one thing I want to flag if it helps in your research.

Lot of Punjabi culture is very much an amalgam of Afghani, Persian and Indo_Aryan based.  Cosider the example of Madrassas in Pakistan, the Taliban banning the education of women, etc.  The hiding of faces in Burka, it sure is going to restrict you from doing certain jobs.  In spite of all these temptations of male dominance in overt societal institutions and structures, Sikhism has by and large saved itself from in a way falling back into dark ages.  Is it perfect, absolutely not.  But just some thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Navdeep88 (Nov 20, 2011)

NaamSimran Ji,

cant wait to see the results of your research! Just  acknowledging, naming, telling the stories of Sikh women could make a dent  in the Punjabi psyche... which I think desperately needs it, Ive had several aunts abort female fetus's and idk... one who aborted several times now has a son with down syndrome, and the other, who was otherwise a lovely caring person and maybe she did it out of pressure from family... she actually passed away after a year of battling brain cancer. 

we need to stop killing, stomping on and abusing girls. since Gurbani is the beacon of light on this issue as well, I think focusing on Historiography and perhaps telling a slightly different story (one that includes a little more acknowledgment of the women who raised, stood by and equally endured all that the influential figures did) could have a very real effect.


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## Navdeep88 (Nov 21, 2011)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> The rules are generally less rigidly enforced in the diaspora, but even in North America, where I live, Singhs often feel free to beat and otherwise mistreat their wives and the wives keep quiet, knowing that they would, at best, be held responsible for their husbands bad behaviour.



Mai Ji, 
I agree with what you have written. But I have a question about the above... Im sure there's loads and loads of research on it but I'd like to hear from you, why do you think the above happens? Why do some men do this and feel its totally ok?


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## Harry Haller (Nov 21, 2011)

This has nothing to do with Sikhism and everything to do with society. Womens role in society is changing daily, gone are the defined roles with the woman as housekeeper and child rearer, and the man as bread winner and leader. Although some religions actively encourage this, the Abrahamic religions are extremely male orientated, with Christianity likening a marriage to the husband being Christ and the wife being the congregation. 

I have watched young girls get assimilated into families, watching it is quite depressing, first they change the girls name, then they strip her off all personality, remind her how much dowry she brought, and then make every decision for her, I do remember one term that was used often, 'moulding', but the strange thing is that it was the older women within the family that were the worst in ensuring this regime continued, maybe it was to justify their own pain when they were young brides, maybe they did not see why the young bride should 'get away with it', but these are all social problems, not Sikhi problems, marriage is not often seen as an equal platform in many many societies, and the punjabi one is probably one of the worst. 

Men mistreat and beat their wives because they are bullies and cowards, some are less intelligent than their wives, and it should really be the wives that are making key decisions in the family, but rather than be shown up by a woman, it is easier to lash out like a playground bully, a lot of men have never grown up, I know, I am one, but whereas I have kept my childish sense of humour and mischief, some have no doubt kept their inability to lose face (even to your wife) and behave accordingly. 

I am not sure if the situation is getting better or worse, as I am in touch with a total of zero sikh families, so I cannot comment on the trend, however, for all the flak 3HO gets, it would appear they seem to have embraced the equality point a bit more than other sikhs, (based on my own observations, happy to be corrected)


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Nov 21, 2011)

Navdeep88 said:


> Mai Ji,
> I agree with what you have written. But I have a question about the above... Im sure there's loads and loads of research on it but I'd like to hear from you, why do you think the above happens? Why do some men do this and feel its totally ok?



May I answer my thoughts on this matter?

The men who do it, do it because they can.  I think part of it is human nature and part of it is testosterone.  Machismo does, in a hormonal way, have a biological basis.  Of course, culture and experience also play a part.  Most men, I hope, have evolved enough that they can and do control the urge to physically assault those whom they see as helpless against them.  There will always be some who do get violent with those they think are easy targets.

The obvious solution is to teach our women and girls to defend themselves and to also teach them that it is good to defend themselves.  In most cases this will be enough to stop the bully.  I advocate this, not only so they can defend themselves against our men, but also they can defend themselves against anyone who might attack them.  Sant/sipahi applies to the lioness as well as the lion.

I am, of course, oversimplifying.  The whole subject is complicated and difficult.  This is where I'd start, though.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 21, 2011)

Inderjeet Kaur
I am said:
			
		

> _Bhain ji thanks for your post.
> 
> I dispute that you are oversimplifying.  The good answers are always simple.
> 
> ...


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## Naamsimiran (Nov 21, 2011)

Sat Naam Jis

Thanks for all your post. There is a lot of research done and its important in fact to look at the research. It is good to discuss, but also helps if we deal with facts, valid observations and theory too. The reason being is that we can have many ideas and thoughts about why things happen, but when we start looking at why exactly things happen, including social issues, we can then find solutions.

I am at the beginning of my research and the questions as well as answers lie in many factors, including Patriarchal systems, Capitalism, Imperialistic structure, Psychology and social psychological behavior to name a few. 

It is a much-layered subject and yes it is complicated as as human-beings we are mulch-layered and complicated.

I suppose at this stage, in my naivety I can offer some observations and ideas.
1. _Patriarchy systems hold men as the primary figures in society. This has affected many culture and societies across the globe.

2. Men don't abuse women, because of testosterone. Testosterone is a chemical and some women are in fact born with a lot of testosterone, but this does not make them abusive. Abuse can stem from many factors, some of which come from the collective society believing and following a Patriarchal system. There are also issues like that of the Ego, dominance, because they want to, fear and other psychological factors and sometimes imbalances.

3. Women are also abusive, verbally and mentally. Again some of the reasons are the same as above.

4. Other systems and structures in history have been designed to put women at the bottom of the ladder, this includes other religions and cultures__. As people sometimes do not question religion/culture, their psyche individually and collectively believe that the design and beliefs are true. When in fact a large majority are not. 

5. Sikhism is a young religion and was very forward thinking for its time. However South Asian culture is still steeped in superstition, old beliefs and inequality. Yes babies are still being aborted. The death toll is high and that is another reason why I am doing this work. South Asian culture has not yet caught up with the idea that women are valuable.

6. The inequality of women is prevalent in many cultures, but some cultures have had movements, like here is the UK, to gain and promote the rights of women. This needs to be done more in South Asian cultures and religions, including Sikh Punjabi culture. 

7. Yes Punjabi culture is made up of _Afghani, Persian and Indo_Aryan and some beliefs have still stuck and filtered done into the minds, consciousness and culture. Thank you for the references (be good to get some links on the matter). So if we look at the history of Punjab, and Globally the systems of _Patriarchy we can start painting a picture as to why things are like they are.

There are other factors too which I will discuss another time. 

_With this understanding we realise there are many issues that have affected the mind set of individuals and collective consciousness. Now it is time to present and practice equality and educate people to slowly change and develop their consciousness. The results may not even be clear in our lifetime, but need to be worked towards all the same.
_
A more equal society, globally is possible.
Sat Nam everyone. Peace and Harmony.
_


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 21, 2011)

Sarbji Bhain ji the following pictorial of vastness of Punjab and it will on further inspection will show intermingling and intertwining of traditions, beliefs, etc.






This is from the following which has other cultural references,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_culture

You may also want to consider that there is tremendous traditions of seeing Punjabi women as beautiful, etc., in imagery and poetry and even in Gurbani many a times there is reference to the creator as male while the follower or student is female.  Whether it translates in people's minds to duality or stature should be considered.  My gut feeling is it translates into females below males generically but this is not scientific.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Nov 21, 2011)

I was thinking how we always show the man driving a bicycle and woman sitting behind him, with the place where she's sitting not an actual seat and of course lower in height. Is this a symbol of the undercurrent discrimination? Can't say.

So what can be the Take Away from this topic? I think we should enumerate how and what all we can do to empower female population in Sikhi.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Nov 21, 2011)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> So what can be the Take Away from this topic? I think we should enumerate how and what all we can do to empower female population in Sikhi.



"A slave cannot be freed save she free herself.  Neither can you enslave a free woman.  The most you can do is kill her."

from R. A. Heinlein;  I changed the gender.

We Kaurs must first free ourselves in our own hearts and minds.  Then we can work with our dear Singhs - and most of you really are very dear - to implement the necessary changes.  But the liberation has to first come from within ourselves.  

Freedom must be taken;  freedom given is an illusion, at best.  Shall I go on, or have I made my point?

_Picture by Kulpreet Singh, used with permission_


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## Naamsimiran (Nov 21, 2011)

Mai Harinder Kaur said:


> "A slave cannot be freed save she free herself.  Neither can you enslave a free woman.  The most you can do is kill her."
> 
> from R. A. Heinlein;  I changed the gender.
> 
> ...



Sat Nam Mai Ji

It is nice to see you on this site! A mutual friend has already introduced us. I have checked your blog and emailed you. What a great site this is!

Anyway. I also believe freedom needs to be actively taken or at least actively worked towards. 

Sometimes we ourselves live under the illusion that because we are Sikh and Sikhism states that women and men have equality, that this equality exists and perhaps we are not active enough, because of this illusion. 

But if we actually breakdown our culture we see that there is still a lot of inequality and even oppression. Obviously not all households are like this and not all individuals, but there is work to be done! .

Hope you are well and even though I have not met you, I am thinking of you and you are in my prayers.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fatheh,


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Nov 21, 2011)

Naamsimiran said:


> Sat Nam Mai Ji
> 
> It is nice to see you on this site! A mutual friend has already introduced us. I have checked your blog and emailed you. What a great site this is!
> 
> ...



Waheguru ji ka khalsa.  Waheguru ji ki fateh!  Welcome to SPN.  welcomekaur This is a great group.  Since I am physically unable to get out much, these people here are most of my Sangat.  

This whole gender inequality among Sikhs is a painful problem for me in a weird sort of way.  I know from my own experience how unnecessary it is and I know how it could be overcome.  Unfortunately, few Sikhs of either sex are willing to take the plunge.  It does involve being unconventional, a big no-no in Punjabi culture.  

My Dad, brilliant and somewhat eccentric, was left to raise me after Mother decided she had better things to do with her life than to raise a girl who would probably die anyway.  As the only girl and with 7 older brothers, it could have been a disaster.  It wasn't.  Dad decided to raise me to be the kind of woman he would have liked to marry, but couldn't find. He encouraged me to be as strong and tough as my brothers, insofar as that was possible, taking into account that I was less than half the size of the smallest.  He educated me physically, intellectually, emotionally and spiritually.

Over and over like a mantra I heard:  "There are millions of things society won't let you do because you're a girl/woman.  There are millions of things you can't do because of personal limitations.  There is exactly one thing you really can't do because you're a girl/woman."  Here was always a big laugh.  "You cannot father a child."  To be truthful, he wasn't much into personal limitations, although he was willing to concede that I'd never be an operatic soprano, but only after the fourth voice teacher said it was hopeless.  I still want to sing and I still can't carry a tune.

I was taught from the very beginning to be strong, self-reliant and self-confident.  Not that the "gentle arts" were ignored.  I learned cooking and sewing and housekeeping, along with culture and languages and science and anything else of mutual interest.  (BTW, although there was much grumbling, my brothers could also cook and sew (at least a button) and clean the house.)  Always, Mai Bhago was held up as one ideal.  So were the male shaheeds.  Dad saw no reason his daughter couldn't fight a battle holding her severed head in one hand and her kirpan in another.  

I must make it clear that while Dad encouraged me to excel, he never belittled or humiliated me.  I never felt anything except love and acceptance from him.  (OK, he did get mad when I pulled his kitty's tail, but that's another story.  Stupid cat!)

When the time came, all our hard work paid off and I was able to do what was required of me.  

Now I realise that not all Sikh Dads can be geniuses, eccentric or otherwise, but they can all encourage their daughters to exceed the limits placed on them by society, whether Punjabi or Western.  

Also most Sikh girls have mothers who can encourage them as well, instead of insisting on silly conformism.  So, they ask, who will marry these strong warrior princesses?  That's easy.  Our strongest Singhs who want a companion to share the adventure of life with them instead of a slave to bow to them. I married young to a man I deeply loved and admired, and Ihad all the joys of traditional womanhood along with everything else.

Of course, this was cut short when I literally went into battle beside my Khalsa Singh...

People say that I am extraordinary.  That is true, but the reason is nothing in me that others Kaurs don't have.  The difference is having a radically different upbringing from other Sikh girls.  Did I mention that throughout childhood,into adulthood and even now, my physical health has been very delicate?  I was born with a congenital blood condition that is usually fatal at a young age.  I fortunately had a Dad that, while giving me all the loving care and medical aid available, still insisted I be all I could be - all I wanted to be.

Guru ji has given us Sikhs something special.  If we want to live large - whether Kaur or Singh - we have that capability in us.  If our own parents haven't help us develop this in ourselves, let us at least encourage our own children, Kaurs and Singhs alike, instead of clinging to a bunch of antiquated, patriarchal, comfortable customs. 

(Sorry for my long windedness.)


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Nov 21, 2011)

Here are two other threads to check out here at SPN that might be of aid to you.


 japposatnamwaheguru::swordfight-kudiyan::noticekudi:


KAUR POWER:  http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/business-and-lifestyle/22488-kaur-power-25.html

and this spinoff, Kaur Power: Plans for an advocacy project at SPN:  

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/community-out-reach/27071-kaur-power-plans-advocacy-project-spn.html


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Nov 22, 2011)

I was thinking.. Having one Gurudwara with all women sewadars, Granthis, Raagis and Kathawachaks will never help. Because it will stand out too much and be taken as an exception. We can go forward only if at all Gurudwaras effort is made to encourage ladies and give them chance for sewa.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Nov 22, 2011)

When in Hyderabad we used to meet on Sundays, there would be 4 parts of the program, Ardas, Kirtan, Shabad Vichar and Saakhi. All 4 duties would be given to both men and women from time to time. Thankfully in this limited set, there was never a thought or doubt that men could do something better. If we start from such a small thing in our local sangats, we can surely expand it to the whole Gurudwara sangat and Sikh kaum.


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## findingmyway (Nov 22, 2011)

Here's another http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/history-of-sikhism/18177-great-women-of-sikhism.html

I do believe its all culture. In some cultures it is the men that dress to impress and the women choose so saying men's 'superior' role is biological just doesn't wash!


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## TigerStyleZ (Nov 22, 2011)

Nirvair Khalsa Jatha UK at MSKSA      - YouTube


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## Gurmit Singh (Nov 23, 2011)

Waheguru jee ka Khalsa   Waheguru jee kee Fateh

 Due to  a long period of slavery in India, life for women was more difficult and there  was
 little  exposure. Accordingly, culture had developed that they could be more safe  within
 the  four walls of the house. Hence, Sikh women during Mughal Period were no  exception,
 though they played a great role in the Sikh  History.

 Guru  Guru Nanak Sahib had raised their morale and challenged the world by raising  his
 Divine  Voice: "Why condemn women or call them inferior, when they give  
                          birth to the Kings, Priests and all human-beings?" (GSS - p.  473)

 Thus, Sikhs respect the women equally except  certain custodians, who continue to be 
 influenced by the brahminical doctrine, instead  of practicing Gurbani.

 We  must popularise the noble deeds done by - Mata Tripta jee, Mata Sulakhni  jee,
 Bebe  Nanki jee, Mata Kheevi jee, Mata Bhani Jee, Mata Ganga jee, Mata Nanki  jee,
 Mata  Kishan Kaur jee, Mata Gujri Kaur jee, Mata Sunder Kaur jee, Mai Bhag Kaur  jee,
 followed by several other brave Sikh ladies, who  sacrificed their lives.

 Life  sketch of certain famous Sikh women has been provided in Book: "Presidh  Sikh
 Bibiaan" by Simran Kaur daughter of late Principal  Satbir Singh jee, published by
 Singh  Brothers, Amritsar. Website: www.singhbrothers.com

Gurmit Singh (Australia)


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## C Kirpal (Nov 24, 2011)

I fully agree with all your views and suggestions. Our country's two worst curses were castism , not treating others( of lower caste) as humans and TREATING women as objects. Even our country's great mythologies like Mahabharat and Ramayan prove that.
Then came our Sikhism whose foundations are laid by our most enlightened Gurus. Fresh air in a stagnating society
The main teaching is that GOD IS ONE AND SUPREME AND FORMLESS. All humans are alike . All life forms have same light of that supreme power. 
But then why keepers of faith ,who definitively are not true Sikhs , laid down different rules for women. (I am most lucky to be born to true Sikh parents who taught us true teachings of Gurus. AND NOT MERE RULES OF SIKHISM  LIKE IN BRAHMINISM  

These  keepers of faith dont do anything to ban using Sir-names???? Why there is castism in Sikh followers????? Why there are no inter caste marriages in SIKHS of different castes???? Why they talk about Biradari etc. Why inter religious marriages are looked down upon???? 
Why in so called Sikh families sons are desired ?????? Not daughters !!!!!! Why cases of killing daughters in name of honour are heard even in so called Sikhs??????
wHY FATHERS AND UNCLES DRINK ??? THEY PASS THE MESSAGE THAT ALCOHOL IS OK , NOT A BAD THING , ONLY SONS ARE YOUNG FOR THAT BUT its not a bad thing ...and for daughters its prohibited !!! HYPOCRITES !!!! They should themselves not indulge in bad things , only then a child will get the message that its WRONG ,,,not OK. Same message to both sons and daughters.
Why only Gurdwaras are constructed and not GOOD schools which can impart world class non religious quality  education ????? Why political tricks are played in schools run by SGPC ?????
Why even Gurdwaras of different castes and local political parties are made ?????
Keeping Rahat should come from within with reverence and not FORCED AS A RULE .. If a true Sikh has actually understood SIKHISM , he/she will sport Kesh, Pagri etc with PRIDE AND REVERENCE. Our children should be given true knowledge and meaning of Gurbani rather than making things mere rituals of mugging the Pauris of Bani ...
People dont read Shri Granth Sahib , only worship it as IDOL. Thats what we teach our children..... 
Its a very recent faith but if so called SIKHS go like this, it will become another fanatic faith in another 200-300 years like it happened with other faiths.

And women any way have to fight for their own rights. No one can give, we have to fight and get our rights....Thats the teaching Gurus gave us.  Anyone not doing anything against 
 injustice is equal culprit


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## ravneet_sb (Nov 24, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal, 

Some have good memory, with no processor
and some has processor, with no memory.
and some have balanced memory and processor.

Man cannot exist without woman
Woman has "Womb for Human" for existence 
but 
is incomplete without man  

Leaving chemical love, 

the higher dimension of love is

Understanding/Trust/Faith/Compassion

Both man and woman have animal instincts, 
training of mind through "Guru's Bani" 

leads to 
live good family and social life

"Kudrat Ke Sab Bande"
"Kaun Bhale Kaun Mande"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Navdeep88 (Nov 24, 2011)

Mai Ji,

I agree with you that parents have the biggest responsibility in this.  To raise sons and daughters who can stand up in life. Who can be  resilient and tough, whether they are male or female. So if life throws  them a curveball, or whether they feel like they're standing in front of  those automatic baseball dispensing things and are being plummeted by  curveballs... they'll still know who they are and what they are  deserving of. And don't settle for anything less or put up with  unnecessary bs that aims to degrade them, abuse them etc. 

But the weird thing is, I dont think this begins to come into understanding without some hard knocks in life. But parents can certainly esteem their kids (male and female) enough so that once they have to start to tread alone, they have a good idea of basic respect and dignity, and how to maintain it.


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## seeker3k (Nov 24, 2011)

It is good thing that woman have to speak up for women’s place in history of Sikhism.
Writing here will not do much. Women have to take a lead in the villages cities. They should not wait for men to recognize them. Take the bull by the horn so to speak. A woman can not do the kirtan in Golden Temple.Why the women not going there and demand the change?

This next comment is going to make many people here upset.

* Admin Note: Rest of the babbling removed from public domain...
*
*Seeker3k ji, please provide a  reliable source to support your babbling about Sikh Gurus. What you  personally think or presume  holds no merit whatsoever.  Next time such a dare would invite more strict action. You are banned for a fortnight. This would give you sufficient time to gather some reliable sources to support your allegations. 

Gurfateh, 
Aman Singh*


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## ravneet_sb (Nov 24, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

naaree purakh sabaa-ee lo-ay. ||3||
Among all the women and the men, His Light is shining


har kay bi-og kaisay jee-a-o mayree maa-ee. 331-1
I am separated from the Lord; how can I survive, O my mother? ||1||Pause||

ka-un ko purakh ka-un kee naaree.
Whose husband is he? Whose wife is she?

araDh sareeree naar na chhodai taa tay hindoo hee rahee-ai. ||3||
She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu.

saach katayb bakhaanai alhu naar purakh nahee ko-ee.
Your holy scriptures say that Allah is True, and that he is neither male nor female.

parmaysar ditaa bannaa. 627-17
The Transcendent Lord has given me His support.
dukh rog kaa dayraa bhannaa.
The house of pain and disease has been demolished.
anad karahi nar naaree.
The men and women celebrate.

sunn mandal ik jogee baisay. 685-16
The Yogi, the Primal Lord, sits within the celestial sphere of deepest Samaadhi.
naar na purakh kahhu ko-oo kaisay.
He is not male, and He is not female; how can anyone

purakh meh naar naar meh purkhaa boojhhu barahm gi-aanee. 879-2
The female is in the male, and the male is in the female. Understand this, O God-realized being!

naaree purakh purakh sabh naaree sabh ayko purakh muraaray. 983-2
Women and men, all the men and women, all came from the One Primal Lord God

aapay purakh aapay hee naaree. 1020-15
You Yourself are the male, and You Yourself are the female.

How to equate "Light" with "Air"
and "Water" with "Earth"

Though each being different but Important but interdependant

So is "man" and "woman"

To compare, equate is due to formal education.

But to be different is "nature"

Divided are ruled by other's, that is social law since ages


It's not "Man" to "Woman's" Equality

But it's "Woman" to "Woman" equality

Woman has to 

develop 

liking for there monthly cycles
liking for there own natural looks
liking for birth process
liking for the cause of nature, 

make eqaulity among themselves
follow and respect the discipline of nature

to be treated as social equal 

Woman to woman difference is cause of inequality 

"Guru's Bani" is equal for "man" and "woman"

It is "Self" of "Ego" which cause "inequality" among "equals"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 25, 2011)

seeker3k ji some comments and I hope you will take it with the way you wrote about the Guru jis as well,


seeker3k said:


> This next comment is going to make many people here upset.
> 
> We always are saying that Gurus honor the women. I disagree with it. They have said Few sloks in the honor of women.


_Please sir/madam explain to me the table of contents you created for the Guru jis, the Bhagats, Baba Farid ji, and others in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that has writings spanning almost 500 years and some how they ignored! :}--}:  I am sure there are others who can say their particular focus is not addressed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  I am sorry to say, you can be a Sikh and follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as written or get the hell out of Sikhism!__  It seems Guru ji could not have pleased some people as they are wiser after the fact._



seeker3k said:


> *Admin Comment: Inflammatory Comment Removed.*



_I am sorry there appears no limit to your nonsense.  Please spell Guru jis name right given your intellectual accomplishment.  Now you, I hope you are a Sikh, find faults in how the Guru ji lived 400-500 years ago.  I wonder how your most noble ancestors lived then as I would like to comment on their lifestyles.  Again Veer ji or Bhain ji, if the sacrifices of Sri Guru Arjun Dev ji, Sri Guru Teg Bahadur ji and Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji you don't want to recognize but looking them to be perfect like you, I am sorry to say again the choice is very clear, either you are not a Sikh or if you are __perhaps you need to return your life to the Guru jis in trust and convert to Islam as such was an assured path given the state of the nation then.

_I realize that all Guru jis works, their sacrifices, and sacrifices of many men and women were directed at making men better and women worse.  Sir/Madam I know you are pleasing perhaps some in this thread by taking the strongest position on how in Sikhism women are treated worse than any other place on earth.  I am not sure if you ever loved a female, loved your mother or had shown respect for females.  Many here do as their spouses, mothers, sisters and friends.

Please review what you have written and I am not offended but I am distraught at what lack of perspective you have posted.  I am sure you have shared such with others and made some friends so doing.

While you are at it can you please elaborate your understanding of Gurbani to help me as I cannot figure out if the creator in Gurbani is portrayed as a male, female, inanimate or formless.  You seem to know Gurbani as your analysis shows when you say about all contributors to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that  _"__They have said Few sloks in the honor of women." _Can you explain why there should be any as Gurbani is centric to "Ik Onkaar"?  I will like you to define "few" and also "many" that are in praise of men.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 25, 2011)

Seeker3kji, 

I am not sure if you mean to be inflammatory in your postings, or whether this is a language issue, as I note your grammar to be a bit lacking here and there, you make some good points, but I think you need to learn some tact and diplomacy, or just brush up on your communication skills, or possibly how to present your thoughts in a way that does not seem offensive. 

I have no doubt that those Gurus that married more than once, had a very good reason for it, and I can assure you that this reason was not to have a small harem, Our Guruji's already had divine pleasure from Creator, they had no need to look for anything else on this earth. I also seem to recall that the tenth master married for the third time when he had given up sex, He promised his third wife children by saying 'the Khalsa are your children', thus elevating his wives to the status of 'Mother of the Khalsa', they were every bit as brave as he was, No, my friend, I cannot see how the taking of another wife in the circumstances of the tenth master has in any way 'set things back'. 

I have responded to and thanked your edited post, it is only be reading Amberseriaji's reply that I am able to see the true rudeness and lack of respect shown, I am not quite sure what your agenda is, to inflame, or make a point, if it is the former, fair enough, I suppose school has not started yet, or maybe there are no flies around to pull the wings off. if it is the latter, then your opinions are welcomed for open debate, but please at least try and be civil...


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 25, 2011)

Well, I am glad I am henpecked. That is not the point but it is life.

Having said that, the first thing we should change in our Anand Karaj is that both the bride and the groom should walk shoulder to shoulder rather than the bride walking behind the groom.

One interesting thing to notice in the West is that when the parents grow old, they are looked after by their daughters not by their sons as is in the case of the Punjabi culture.

Something to ponder!

Tejwant Singh


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## findingmyway (Nov 25, 2011)

seeker3k said:


> *Admin Comment: Inflammatory Comment Removed.*



Completely wrong. I am tired of hearing this rumour repeated constantly. The Guru's always practised what they preached. NO GURU MARRIED MORE THAN ONCE. Just like the many of the janamsakhis around Guru Nanak are false and designed to undermine Sikhi by introducing confusion and doubt, false stories about the other Guru's have also been disseminated. Please get your facts straight before insulting our Guru's.


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## findingmyway (Nov 25, 2011)

harry haller said:


> I have no doubt that those Gurus that married more than once, had a very good reason for it, and I can assure you that this reason was not to have a small harem, Our Guruji's already had divine pleasure from Creator, they had no need to look for anything else on this earth. I also seem to recall that the tenth master married for the third time when he had given up sex, He promised his third wife children by saying 'the Khalsa are your children', thus elevating his wives to the status of 'Mother of the Khalsa', they were every bit as brave as he was, No, my friend, I cannot see how the taking of another wife in the circumstances of the tenth master has in any way 'set things back'.



Incorrect!!!!!!! NO GURU MARRIED MORE THAN ONCE. Guru Gobind Singh ji only married once. His wife's name changed after marriage as per the old custom (my grandmother did this also). Another follower then offered his daughter to Guru Gobind Singh and it is often quoted she was the 3rd wife but he never married her as he said he was already married. Mata Sahib Kaur was a sevadaar in the Guru's court and had no other relationship. The reference to providing her children referred to the Khalsa which is why she was involved in the amrit sanchar ceremony-she had proved herself a worthy sevadaar. Please research the facts before supporting rumours!


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Nov 25, 2011)

findingmyway said:


> Completely wrong. I am tired of hearing this rumour repeated constantly. The Guru's always practised what they preached. NO GURU MARRIED MORE THAN ONCE. Just like the many of the janamsakhis around Guru Nanak are false and designed to undermine Sikhi by introducing confusion and doubt, false stories about the other Guru's have also been disseminated. Please get your facts straight before insulting our Guru's.



Thank you for saying that.  Those statements really bothered me, but I was unsure how to answer without inflaming the situation.  I personally wonder that someone could believe such about our Gurus and still remain a Sikh.  Doesn't being a Sikh involve respect for them, at least?  



> *SIKH CODE OF CONDUCT AND                        CONVENTIONS*
> ​ *[SIZE=-1]                           Section One
> 
> [/SIZE]*​ [SIZE=-1]*                                                     CHAPTER                          1*[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
> ...



I think those beliefs violate Section One, CHAPTER 1, Article 1, ii  quoted above, although I suppose what "faithfully believes in...Ten Gurus..." might be open to interpretation.

I know this is slightly off-topic, but it is an important point that cannot be passed over.

Or is it on-topic because a Kaur is expressing a strong opinion?


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 25, 2011)

Inderjeet Kaur ji I had that in my mind (SRM) when I commented but I did not want to depend upon such.  One has to be totally arrogant to not recognize that the reason why some of us are even around may be because of the Guru ji's teachings, sacrifices of Guru jis and their families, sacrifices of many Sikh, men, women and children.  Many forefathers and fore-mothers would have been dead to stop us from being if Sikhism through our Guru ji did not take hold.  Talk about biting the hand that feeds or cutting the branch you are sitting on.

I really feel sorry for Seeker3K (I don't know what he/she is seeking) if he/she thinks self to be a Sikh.  If he/she is not Sikh the post is not appreciated and such nonsense needs to stop being contrary to spn TOS.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## ravneet_sb (Nov 25, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

What we read/write speak/listen may not be fact, it may come as reflection on one's 
own mind.
If one has faith than only one can seek/one should seek. 

Fancy words do not resolve, action reflects mind.

To read and reach fact's for deluded is not so simple. 

If one have doubt's where stand faith.

It is very difficult to leave subconscious mind, cause of involuntary actions. One's
speech, writing and actions are not in control and contains doubt.

"Faith" comes as blessings from practice of "GURU's BANI"

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa
Wahe Gur Ji Ki Fateh


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## Admin (Nov 25, 2011)

seeker3k said:


> It is good thing that woman have to speak up for women’s place in history of Sikhism.
> Writing here will not do much. Women have to take a lead in the villages cities. They should not wait for men to recognize them. Take the bull by the horn so to speak. A woman can not do the kirtan in Golden Temple.Why the women not going there and demand the change?
> 
> This next comment is going to make many people here upset.
> ...


*Seeker3k ji, please provide a  reliable source to support your babbling about Sikh Gurus. What you  personally think or presume  holds no merit whatsoever.  Next time such a dare would invite more strict action. You are banned for a fortnight . This would give you sufficient time to gather some reliable sources to support your allegations. 

Gurfateh, 
Aman Singh*


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## Harry Haller (Nov 26, 2011)

findingmyway said:


> Incorrect!!!!!!! NO GURU MARRIED MORE THAN ONCE. Guru Gobind Singh ji only married once. His wife's name changed after marriage as per the old custom (my grandmother did this also). Another follower then offered his daughter to Guru Gobind Singh and it is often quoted she was the 3rd wife but he never married her as he said he was already married. Mata Sahib Kaur was a sevadaar in the Guru's court and had no other relationship. The reference to providing her children referred to the Khalsa which is why she was involved in the amrit sanchar ceremony-she had proved herself a worthy sevadaar. Please research the facts before supporting rumours!



I have to confess to reading the material for my post from a book I bought at Amritsar Market when I was 9, it was a paperback sized pink book about Guru Gobind Singh ji, it went into huge detail about lots of things, and I have never really bothered to question it, I was brought up thinking the tenth master had at least two wives, but some internet browsing and The explanation above has put paid to that, I am extremely glad I made my post as today I have lost another mistruth about Sikhism that has held over from my younger days, I have to confess that the Sikhism I see before me today has no resemblance whatsoever to the Sikhism that not only I embraced, but to the one that thousands embrace daily, in some respects I feel a bit angry, Why are mistruths like these allowed to propogate, why is there not more done by those 'in charge' to encourage peope to see the true colours of Sikhism. 

Jasleenji, never before have I been this happy to be corrected, thank you


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## Naamsimiran (Nov 30, 2011)

Naamsimiran said:


> Sat Nam Ji.
> 
> It is funny that Banda Singh Bahadur was mentioned, as I near to  finished an image of his wife, Susheel Kaur and the reason being is  that, yes we need to see, hear and learn about the women of Sikhi. Banda  Singh Bahadur's wife also went through the loss of her son and also did  not give up her faith.
> 
> ...



Sat Naam 

*It seems that I have a lot to learn! After doing a lot of reading, going to a talk in Leicester about the Dasam Granth and Sikhism and Human Rights as part of Sikh Society and speaking to the Historians and Lawyers who presented the above talks, it has come to light that Jakokbsh (who I quoted and referenced above) may in fact have a very Euro-centric biased to her writing*. Although being aware that writers do have their own biased (despite the fact they are suppose to remain objective), I have realised I need to read more critically. Jakokbsh in fact may not be right in her view and may have missed the point of Sikhism being Egalitarian altogether. However, at this stage it is important not to dismiss points of view, but rather read with a critical eye.

In fact my research is taking me on a very difficult journey. On one hand I Love Sikhism and Sikh philosophy. I love it because my understanding is that it promotes equality and oneness and humanity.

However, like a lot of you have expressed here on this blog, in our culture, in reality women seem to be on the 'background'. I guess this is one part of what I am trying to research. Are women in the 'background'? Or is this now changing? I guess the best way forward and to remain objective is to gather people's experiences and observations and feelings. Also I realise it is not only in punjabi culture, it is in other cultures too. But obviously not always the case.

But the journey seems confusing at times.

Apologies for any mistakes I have made.
WJKK WJKF


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 30, 2011)

Naamsimiran Bhain you sound a little upset or dis-heartened.  Let me know if I can help.  If you have not already done so I believe it will be worthwhile to subdivide the topic into Past, Present and Future.  

Past is the easiest to do it is Historic and reasonably certain who was treated which way specific to Sikhism, culturally and other religions.  Little can be done to bring out a large positive base to build from aside from very specific examples but the massive male oriented historic will most likely swamp it.

Present one needs to recognize the Good, Indifferent and bad and address how it can be a springboard for positive future.

Future should be cut loose from past other than anecdotal as repeating bad is going to keep bad in focus.  There should be a reality check to a path in terms of rate of change over thelast say 20 years and a plan for the next 20 or generation back and a generation forward.

Just some thoughts and please ask for help if it is useful and it is no imposition as those with helpful attitude or mindset will love to help.  You are the future.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Naamsimiran (Nov 30, 2011)

Sat Naam Ambarsaria Ji

Thank you for your comment and contributions and I will definitely consider them.

In fact yes I have been a little upset. It is actually such a challenging journey. I think because when you have look at your own culture and behavior, looking at the positives and negatives is difficult. As obviously I do not want to paint my own culture in a bad light, but if we are going to move forward, we do need to look at what improvements can be made. This is where we need to look at the 'negative aspects'. 

However I guess it is also challenging as when someone from punjabi culture, starts writing about the improvements that can be made, it can easily be viewed by an 'outsider' of the culture as our culture is unequal and oppressive. However, in reality it is a spectrum. There are empowered men and women and husbands and wives who live on equal terms, but oppression and negative issues also exists.



Men and women are still being forced into marriages.
There are still females being aborted.
In Gudwaras, there are still more pictures of men (as great and lovely as they are) compared to women.
There are a lot of women who did great things in Sikh history and thankfully yes their images are being painted and their stories are being told. But it could be better.
These are facts. However it is hard to say these things out loud as it is about things happening in my beloved community. Communities and cultures are complex. I guess I just don't want an 'outsider' to read the negatives and demonise punjabi culture. Yet the faults need to be looked at, so things can change.


What do you think? icecreamkudi


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 30, 2011)

Bhain one who is scared of the outcome cannot get to the truth.  So don't worry about demonizing.  Find what you do, propose what you want and have people comment for sensitivities and sensibilities thereafter.  Be honest and keeping the scope and _percentages of good, indifferent and bad_ in focus.  It by itself leads to honesty.

It is a very challenging subject even 1 bad is too many but very little can come out of such an approach in terms of challenge for change and positive impact of your endeavor.

You are family I love ice cream too icecreammunda

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Naamsimiran (Nov 30, 2011)

Sat Naam Ji

thanks for the support. Your words are comforting and I am grateful. 

I also believe in truth and being honest. I am not scared of the outcome, just concerned that I get it accurate! Which is the scary thing.

And yes hurray for ice-cream

In the words of Guru Nanak: “_Truth is high_ but _higher still_ is _truthful_ living.”

WJKK WJKF


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 30, 2011)

Following an example what kind of people kept company of our Guru jis and how Women were so respected, loved, honored.  This about love of a child for mother.



> Shah Hussain to whom Siri Guru Arjun Dev jee treated very well, when he  came to include his Baani, was a contemporary of Guru Sahib. He was very  humble and obtained Guru Sahib's Khushi by his humility. Complete  Saakhi can be read here:


Song composition from the 1600s by Shah Hussein from Punjab,

Maye Ni Mein Kinu Akhan      - YouTube
HAMAD ALI BELA-MAYE NI MAIN KINO AAKHAN COMPLEAT KAFI      - YouTube
Mai ni main kinu akhan by Sain zahoor Post by Zagham      - YouTube

With so much love to leverage, mothers need to be center stage in your project for the future.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Nov 30, 2011)

Naamsimran ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:




> Sat Naam
> 
> It seems that I have a lot to learn! After doing a lot of reading, going to a talk in Leicester about the Dasam Granth and Sikhism and Human Rights as part of Sikh Society and speaking to the Historians and Lawyers who presented the above talks,* it has come to light that Jakokbsh (who I quoted and referenced above) may in fact have a very Euro-centric biased to her writing.* Although being aware that writers do have their own biased (despite the fact they are suppose to remain objective), I have realised I need to read more critically. Jakokbsh in fact may not be right in her view and may have missed the point of Sikhism being Egalitarian altogether. However, at this stage it is important not to dismiss points of view, but rather read with a critical eye.
> 
> ...



Pardon the intrusion. Ambarsaria ji is a great help and I am sure he will be able to help you a lot in your research.

I must confess, I almost cringed when you talked about Jakokbsh talking about Sikh women. She is not only Euro-centric but has no idea about the Punjabi Sikh woman's culture which is an amalgam of many cultures which include Indo Aryan, Mughal, Afghani, Turkish, Baluchi, Pathani to name the few. I know she has been praised by many Sikh women, most of whom are converts. Her book has many flaws and it seems she is talking about the Punjabi Sikh woman's culture from a window of a running train. I am glad you are taking a critical look at her works.

Yes, you are on  a difficult journey but as they say, a journey without the labyrinthes is like walking on a straight line from one end to the other. One does not even realise where one has been and where one is. But that is what a true journey is all about.

It is a wonderful endeavour and if you need any other help, please post it here.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Navdeep88 (Nov 30, 2011)

NaamSimran Ji,

I've been thinking about this and I think the fact that Sikhi is such a young religion and has had to face a lot of hardship (both historically and in present times) to sustain itself, has resulted in a narrative that celebrates a lot of masculine qualities because that's just been the need. There's been almost a constant struggle to establish a foothold (ie physically, a specified state etc... and spiritually, because of the overwhelming presence of Hinduism etc and the almost coercive efforts to Hinduize Sikhi)... and in these contexts, the masculine qualities have been key to sustaining the Sikh Faith. So retelling stories of strong male role models has been key.  

But imo, there is another need. Old bibis taunting younger mothers when they have daughters but no son, is an issue. Females being aborted because they're viewed as burdens and disposable... I wonder if there could be a link between the Sikh Narrative and its focus mainly on the role of strong males, and the current thinking of Punjabi people. Could it be that Old bibis who are Sikh themselves and go to Gurdwarars, hear the parchar... could it be that the near absence of acknowledging and celebrating a large group of otherwise unknown Sikh women who were mothers, wives, daughters and sisters... has a very real effect? 

Or perhaps, this has little to do with Sikhi and its just centuries old cultural ideas still trying to grip people in categories... i may be confusing cultural influence with religious. 

**my apologies if any of the above causes offence, not intended.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 30, 2011)

Little strong language in my post below, no swearing (no 4 letter words of course).

I believe the tables have already turned against the influencers of "Female Infanticide", idiots.  Be these men or women, society pressure, cultural pressure, etc.  We know there is no religious pressure.  That is as gracefully as I can address such people.

There is coming a time where men will be giving out dowry (to marry good women).  The ratio of females to males is looking terrible in terms of 1:1.  Not to push dowry but the mediocre male guys with attitude will have difficulties finding good soul mates.  There are Doctors, Lawyers and accomplished kids with attitude having such difficulties in Canada.  It will get worst for such worldwide.

Not a solution but creation's way of getting back at such practices and imbalances.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Dec 1, 2011)

Another thing that always infuriates me is when a woman is referred to as having been "dishonored."  SHE WAS RAPED.  Please use the proper term.

I understand the concept of izzat and the burden of that being on the woman.  Obviously that needs to be changed.  Let's start with this simple change in terminology.  The criminal who RAPED her is dishonored.  She is guilty of nothing and her honor remains intact.

A small thing maybe, but a huge change in attitude.kaurhug


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## Naamsimiran (Dec 1, 2011)

Tejwant Singh Ji

thanks for your post. It was certainly a good reminder to remain critical. Glad I was reminded at the start of this journey. Sat Naam.

Also if I do put anything up here that people have a different view especially if it can be referenced to other more critical texts, please send me a polite message.

Thanks again Ji

Sarbjit


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## Naamsimiran (Dec 1, 2011)

*Navdeep88* Ji

I found your post very interesting. I think there is a distinction to be  made between Sikh philosophy and culture. I recall someone saying on  SPN, that it is 'all culture' and someone else mentioned the 'ego'.

I went to a lecture at Manchester University South Asian culture. Some of  the issues that was discussed was that, sons are favored over boys because:


in India they inherit the  property and land. Although the state/government passed laws so women  would get a share (which also varied religiously as Muslims in fact  already had a system where monies were shared, built into their  religion). However even those these laws were passed, they were rarely  upheld by the people.
 

in India (and in the UK etc),  the dowry system, puts a huge strain on family's finance, so girls are  seen as a 'burden' from the start.
 

Also in India (a point not discussed in the lecture), especially  as it has been invaded so man times, there is a in built fear of women  being raped, as of course they were. This is linked to izzat. So again  women are a burden. But not because families don't want girls and don't  love their daughters, but the systems of dowry, inheritance and izzat,  make it difficult for them to be the favored outcome. That fear of one's  izzat stay, even when people moved to the UK or elsewhere.
 

The way power structures work, women hold power as they get older  in India. So new daughter-in-laws, have very little power, however as  they get older and then become Mother-in laws themselves, they exert  that power and some abuse it. Which is not really a healthy system. This  system again stuck and attitudes transferred here in the UK/elsewhere.
 

Indian/South Asian culture (not everywhere of course - point discussed in lecture), sons, especially when married according to tradition are suppose to support their parents and that relationship of mother/father and son, is suppose to be priority. This often means that the new wife is alienated.
 

A more critical look: also very unfortunately, linked to power and  the inheritance and abuse. When arrange marriages happen, especially in  the UK where, women come in from India, the daughter-in-law is further  seen as the 'other' and in some families holds even less power. The  persons that hold the power tend to abuse it, esp the mother-in-laws.  Also the relationship between the husband and wife may not always be  great because the husband is suppose to take the parents side.
 Obviously we have in fact moved forward, 


as some people don't accept dowries.
some don't abuse their power.
people are realizing, it is not the women's fault if she gets raped (Inderjeet Kaur mentioned this point).
the argument of inheritance, becomes undone, as it is normally the  elder son who inherits so there is in fact tension between the sons.
some families share the wealth and treat daughters and sons equally.
the next generation hold different values and more equal attitudes.
men do take the side of their wives.
 Yet abuse and favoritism and male biased does exist. So the above points  can't be dismissed. Plus it is important to see the pressures men face,  


due they want to be stuck in the middle between wife and parents, to name one.
If they don't agree with the male favoritism, how do they get alienated?
Are they viewed as being less of a man if they don't follow tradition?
  Possible improvements?


Don't have a dowry and don't accept one. Unless the dowry supports the women and man. i.e. new clothes for the women etc, financial support for both of them, where the women also has a say in what happens with the money.
Don't abuse your power, treat people as equal and with love.
Share property/wealth/land equally.
Teach boys/men and girls/women to truly know and be able to find a good mate they want to marry and be open and honest about it. Allow for mistakes and support those where marriages don't work, instead of alienating them or cutting them out of the community.
If arrange marriages do take place, let the partners get to know each other.
Marriages based on guilt and fear, is possible not the greatest starting point.
Encourage husbands and wives to build their relationship without parental biased.
 Apologies if I made and mistakes in the above and I hope I have not been too long winded or offended anyone.

Comments welcome.

 Sat Naam.


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## kds1980 (Dec 1, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Little strong language in my post below, no swearing (no 4 letter words of course).
> 
> I believe the tables have already turned against the influencers of "Female Infanticide", idiots.  Be these men or women, society pressure, cultural pressure, etc.  We know there is no religious pressure.  That is as gracefully as I can address such people.
> 
> ...


Ambarsaria ji

It is not only female foeticiders are going to suffer,it is the entire society and especially the poor one that will suffer the most.

1) With more men and less women crime against women will rise significantly 
this will lead more women to be in home or be in protection of some powerful man.

2)Brawls over Girls will rise and people will kill,hurt others.

3)Prostitution will increase

4)Women trafficking from poor area's will become a norm.life in Naxal hit area's ,Bihar bengal assam etc  is worse so many women will also prefer to go and marry men from Punjab ,haryana


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 1, 2011)

kds1980 ji good point you have raised.  I have no direct experience of such in India. I trust your observations are generally on the mark.  Unfortunately so as you flagged bad for many women and poorer men.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Dec 1, 2011)

animatedkhanda1



kds1980 said:


> Ambarsaria ji
> 
> It is not only female foeticiders are going to suffer,it is the entire society and especially the poor one that will suffer the most.
> 
> ...



    My only disagreement with this is that it shouldn't be in the future tense.  It belongs in the present progressive: 


   "...is rising...is leading more women..."
    "...are rising...are killing, hurting..."
    ..."is increasing..."
    "...is becoming..."
We are now seeing the beginning of all these evils.  I hope I do not see the day when Sikh women are expected to because Draupadi Kaurs, but I'm afraid that will happen.  BTW, this tend is also evident among Western Sikhs of Punjabi ancestry.  Expect it to become worse since female foeticide is not illegal, it's just another abortion. 

I have time and again said that I believe this to be the greatest danger to Sikhi.  Guru ji will give us strength to fight external enemies and win.  Guru ji will thus save us from our enemies from outside;  I do not know if he will save us from ourselves.

animatedkhanda1


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## ravneet_sb (Dec 2, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

Respect/Power/Equality/ though have external perspective but men's and women's own internal perspective.

What if woman as wife says, 

Next birth I will be man and you will be woman

Daughter/Sister say

If one is woman than only man can understand.

Understanding of true nature is required

Lets do some hard talk 

Again

Woman has to create liking for there own self, its woman who seek man (boy) form,
rather than man compelling in most of the cases

They have to change the disliking what nature has given to them.

This statement of mine may be wrong for many kaurs, 
but this is truth what we have in our society in our families.

Even formal education has no impact on thought process.

There is a short story, 
please don't take it real, its story, framed by own self to convince my wife 

Two woman pray to all mighty, to give them salvation

Sukhi of them unconditional desireless/ content and 
Dukhi of them conditional to give salvation as man's dress, 
Dukhi was totally desirous and discontent 


In the next formation

Both of them reproduced, 
children are re production of self man and woman. 

We produce our own self.

Sukhi with a daughter, 
naturally beautiful, sweet voiced, desire less, content.

She was in peace owing daughter and was liked by every one, her praise was
till king's palace. Though desire and content, Sukh's daughter got married with
prince.

Dukhi reproduced 

Dukhi blessed with son, he was healthy, good looking, full of passion,
he was blessed with wife, full of desire, claiming, blaiming, expecting, not leaving
any peace to her son. 

Dukhi was dukhi from her son's dukh and daughter in law.

Both went to all mighty's place.

Sukhi Thanked   and 
Dukhi Blamed why son is facing Dukh, 

All is creation of self, form has no relevance. 

Follow "GURU's BANI" create liking for self, outside blames will disappear.

Seek Truth and follow with discipline and routine to get salvation.  

Creator has blessed each one of us, understand one's role, 

Educate True Self for the cause of nature,
and 
Create liking for self and bless to all others. 
One can do for all who has come and will come.

Man are not so competent to understand, nature's process.


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Harry Haller (Dec 2, 2011)

Gurfatehji

My dear neighbour next door, a butcher whose wife was expecting twins a few months ago, had his heart set on a girl, and he was told his wife was expecting a girl and a boy, they were both delighted, she gave birth early, the boy was fine, but the girl had a few problems and eventually died, this couple were devastated, all they had ever wanted was a little girl, at the funeral, the smallest coffin I have ever seen was carried in by my friend, a tough east end butcher, crying his eyes out like his heart was broken

Compare this was a memory I have of a family I know (sikh) who had just had a girl, I was at the house while the phone was ringing with family congratulations, only it was more like somebody had died, quiet whispers, apologies, tears, 

Now these people, are the same types of people, human beings, with feelings, so what has gone wrong, 

The truth is that women have always had it hard, and in some societies, they are  still, absolutely repressed, I believe that Sikhism has tried to make inroads into equality, but good old human nature just takes over, together with tradition, bitterness, control, the whole circle keeps going round, the abused grow up to be the abuser, how many mother in laws, having suffered themselves are going to take kindly to a daughter in law coming into a family and enjoying liberties and treatment that did not exist 20 years ago, how many would like to forgive and forget, but just cannot,

My friend did not feel anything negative for his daughter because he does not live in a society that places glory on a son, he does not have to worry about a dowry, he just has to worry about what he wants, and what his wife wants, compare that to most indian couples who are about to give birth, its not about what he or her wants, its about what the family wants, and I think there lies the difference and the solution, we need more enlightened people in families to put forward the proposition that it makes no difference, those wrinkled stern looking elders need to start reassuring the younger generations that hold them in such high esteem that girls are ok, and everything else will filter down, the problem people, in families, Gurdwaras, that do that little sorry smile and pained expression on hearing 'its a girl' need to be mocked and ridiculed for their stances, younger people need to start asking more questions, we need to shame anyone who actually really believes that it makes any difference as to what the sex of a child is, and then maybe one day, in our culture, it really won't matter, who knows, maybe it will swing round so much, people will be ashamed of having boys


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## seeker3k (Dec 14, 2011)

Aman Singh said:


> *Seeker3k ji, please provide a  reliable source to support your babbling about Sikh Gurus. What you  personally think or presume  holds no merit whatsoever.  Next time such a dare would invite more strict action. You are banned for a fortnight . This would give you sufficient time to gather some reliable sources to support your allegations.
> 
> Gurfateh,
> Aman Singh*


Dear Aman Singh ji,
I have sent the data info to administer but I think no one there want to know the truth.
You can read about it in mahan kosh by Kan Sinh Nabha.
I will wait for the reply. If no reply then I will post it here


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Dec 14, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Gurfatehji
> 
> Compare this was a memory I have of a family I know (sikh) who had just had a girl, I was at the house while the phone was ringing with family congratulations, only it was more like somebody had died, quiet whispers, apologies, tears,



When we went on that fateful trip to India in 1984, we had intended to bring an unwanted daughter or two from Mani's family home with us.  Then, I turned up pregnant with twins and we were delighted.  I got an ultrasound to check on the babies' well-being and the doctor told us without being asked that we had two pinkies.  The response of the family was immediate and devastating.  They were offering too arrange for the abortion!  I was in tears, Mani was livid and Sandeep was in tears as well.  What a scene that was!  Mani, his arm protectively around me,  was screaming at them in a most un-Mani-like manner that how did anyone dare to suggest murdering his children and what the h*** was wrong with these people who called themselves Sikhs and yet were so quick to insult our Guru Sahiban and how dare they treat a pregnant woman in such a fashion...By the time he was finished, I think all of them were cowering in a corner.

Looking back, what strikes me the most is that there was no question in their collective mind.  No one even suggested we get an abortion, it was just taken for granted, a matter of course.

The systematic elimination of our girls is nothing short of suicide.  When will the sangat (I won't call them saadh) wake up to this truth?!


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## Navdeep88 (Dec 15, 2011)

Mai Ji,

your son's name was Sandeep?? That's my older brother's name! They're very special people, those Sandeeps.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Dec 15, 2011)

Navdeep88 said:


> Mai Ji,
> 
> your son's name was Sandeep?? That's my older brother's name! They're very special people, those Sandeeps.



Aren't they, though.

And don't you dare call them Sandy.  I can still hear him in first grade telling his teacher who decided he needed a "Western" name, "NO!  YOU *MAY NOT *CALL ME SANDY.  MY NAME IS SAN-_*DEEP.  DEEP, DEEP, DEEP.*_ SAN _*DEEP*_.    yellingmunda  Very special indeed.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Dec 15, 2011)

@Harry Haller ji,

So it is up to the father to protect his daughter from the eccentricities of the society!


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## Harry Haller (Dec 15, 2011)

Kanwaljeetji, 

no, it is up to father and mother to equip  the daughter with the tools to change society,


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 15, 2011)

> Originally Posted by *harry haller*
> 
> 
> Gurfatehji
> ...


I know I have shared this story many years ago but it is worth repeating here. I went back to India  for the first time after having lived away since the age of 15. The year was 1985 when Papa ji had passed away.

We have  a big British era bungalow style house in Ferozepore which is on 3 acres of land. My Grand dad had built 10 houses at the back to get the rental income.

My Mum used to look after the renters and one of the residents was a kind of sister to her whose daughter had gotten married. My Mum herself had 6 daughters and she used to get young girls from the poor families from the villages around, train them and then marry them off. She must have done this for about 20 girls if I am not mistaken. She used to pay for the wedding, normally a Hindu style but many of them turned into Sikhi and she found the Sikh grooms for them.

My Mum's "sister's" daughter was expecting and was home when I got there. After a few days, I hear the weeping sounds from the house. I got surprised and went there to check if the baby was fine.

The reality was that the daughter had given birth to a baby girl. I got very upset after having been brought up in a house with 6 sisters. As I was a "new  Punjabi" then, I unloaded my ire at the grandma, at her two sons who were grown up,the new dad, all crying and went and hugged the Mum of the new born and explained them that it is a blessing rather than a curse to have a baby girl. Sex/gender is only in Ik Ong Kaar's hands. My outrage seemed to have worked because I made the brothers and the new dad to go to the bazaar and bring mithai to distribute to all neighbours.

Then things calmed down because "The Angrez"- as they used to call me then, sorted things out.

I thought I would share this with you again to show how this kind of talibanisation of treating women as a curse, a good for nothing but a burden mentality hurts Sikhi and sad to say that many Sikhs are not strong enough to cope with it, simply because they are ritualistic and have padlocks on their inner Gurdwaras.

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Dec 15, 2011)

Angrez ji

This is the first time I can remember you telling this story. Angrez always you will be. Maybe we need more "Angrez" dispatched through India and the diaspora to get the story out and spread the mithai too.


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 15, 2011)

spnadmin ji one comment to your and Tejwant Singh ji's post.


spnadmin said:


> Angrez ji
> 
> This is the first time I can remember you telling this story. Angrez always you will be. Maybe we need more "Angrez" dispatched through India and the diaspora to get the story out and spread the mithai too.


The actual thoughts in many a minds these days about such are very feeble or nimble.  Many change with least amount of nudging.  The tragedy is that many ignore and don't have even a little courage to speak up when such makes all the difference one family at a time.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 15, 2011)

seeker3k ji histories cannot be re-written.  Are you trying to flag a mistake by Guru Gobind Singh ji to prove something?  They claimed to be human like you me and the people all around.  They had higher ideals to shape a flock of sheep and ash laden idiots into a community of thinkers and warriors.  What is bigger the deeds or possible mistake(s)?

There is a saying "Let him throw the first stone!".  It simply means before we focus on mistakes we need to look at ourselves.  So I assume you did!

I also assume you wish you were never born out of mistake led religion.  The reason you me and many others are around is perhaps due to Guru Gobind Singh ji sacrifices and of many Sikhs thereafter.  Some will never learn to be thankful or say thank you.

So let us recount,


Guru Gobind Singh ji died for you and me
His four sons died for you and me
His father died to save the religion that the people in 1984 re-payed by killing Sikhs
His loved companions died for you and me
Let us hear of your or your family's eternal contribution to our lives or mankind that we can be thankful for!  That is how life works!  It is called put up or shut up!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 15, 2011)

Seeker3k ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am just appalled at your mindset. Your hatred towards Sikhi for the reasons only known to you.

I know many Agnostics who are loving and caring but I have seen you for years do nothing but find faults where they do not exist.

So, next time, if you want to talk about Sikhi, talk about the Shabad Guru and discuss that, so that your disdain can be tamed by you.

Show me the faults in SGGS if you find any. The rest is all debatable for its veracity but you have a habit of clinging on to something that says anything against Sikhi or about our Gurus who gave us the new vision and a brand new thought process, things you do not try to dwell into. If you did, then you would not be so venomous towards yourself and to the rest of the world.

We all work to get better in life but it seems with time you have become more bitter, disdainful and self loathing while trying to find faults in Sikhi.

It is sad to notice that this is the way you have chosen to live your life.

I will wait for you to find any mistakes in the SGGS, our only Guru. 

Tejwant Singh


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## Harry Haller (Dec 16, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> spnadmin ji one comment to your and Tejwant Singh ji's post.
> The actual thoughts in many a minds these days about such are very feeble or nimble.  Many change with least amount of nudging.  The tragedy is that many ignore and don't have even a little courage to speak up when such makes all the difference one family at a time.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



feeble minds have been the scourge of society for too long, the more feeble a mind, the more fickle it seems to be


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## seeker3k (Dec 16, 2011)

Very nice it nicly fitting for these people who go so low to attack on personal level.<?"urn:fficeffice" />
Are you forgetting the topic? The topic is women in Sikhi.
I am as proud of Gobind Sing as you and others. No one here took oath to promote women cause. But they are very quick to attack on personal lever. I have not attacked any one on personal lever. You want to keep doing it that is your problem. 
Does this act by the Gurus help women’s self esteem? For a man it is good.
If any one can read what I wrote. I gave the reason why Gobind Sing married 2 times. I never said he was wrong.

*Guru Gobind Singh had one wife at a time. That is a bit different from the implications of earlier. spnadmin*.

<o> </o>
The reason women are not recognized in Sikhi is Sikhism is controlled by men. No gurdwara is managed by woman in any part of the world. There is no woman granthi in any gurdwara. 

*Again. Please no dramatic generalizations. A Haifax sangat has an all women management committee. There are other sangats with women in important executive roles. The Guru Ramdas Ashram in Espanola has a woman granthi. This is also not the only one. Check. You will be surprised. spnadmin*

Here in <?xml::ffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Canada</st1:country-region> on Wisakhi Sikhs do nagar kertan. 5 pyare walk in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with their swords drawn. There is no woman in those 5? <st1lace w:st="on">Punjab is highst in daughter killing. I have not seen any man making statement against the daughter killing.
Men still think women are not strong or wise to defend them and others. How many DC,DSP,SP are women in <st1lace w:st="on">Punjab? Women are majority now but they are the highest unemployed in <st1lace w:st="on">Punjab?
<o> </o>
Women liberation started in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region> in late 50’s. There too men were against the movement. But women of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region> persisted and the won their rights. In <st1lace w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region> men and women worked together in factories but woman was paid half what the man got?
<o> </o>
Women all over the world been abused for thousands years by men. It is about time they get their right and live in honor. It is up to men to make it happen. Women still are not strong economically.  It has to start in gurdwaras and at homes. Half of the MLS must be women. Every Gov office must have half women working there.
Whos in here is willing to pick up the cause for women? Here all are good at personal attak and swear at one who point out weakness.
I am not going go to some of men here who swear at me.
<o> </o>
Jesus had wife but the Catholic hid it from the public. Now it is out. If we try to hide thing from people they will not respect the gurus and those who try to hide it. If having more one wife is not mistake then why hide it? Why people getting upset if one talk about it? It means they don’t have the respect of guru. I am proud of guru no matter what he did. He did what was right at that time.
One who show us the mirror is our friend.  Sorry I meant Me not people at this site


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## Harry Haller (Dec 16, 2011)

Guru Gobind Singhji and indeed all the Sikh Gurus never had more than one wife, this is a myth, Mata Jito and Mata Sundari are the same person


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 16, 2011)

seeker3k ji I feel for you.

Let us take a look at your style with an excerpts,



> Very nice it nicly fitting for these people who go so low to attack on personal level.ffice
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_You are perfectly OK to attack revered Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji 303 years after his death.__  Read your writing as others read it not with some convoluted mindset that your style is ever so pious._



> Are you forgetting the topic? The topic is women in Sikhi.


_It appears you are the only one talking much about men, negatives, and history and little about women, positives and future.__  Make some suggestion in righting future.  Give examples of what you have done to make things right for women.  

_Finding faults or so specially historic is cheapest of professions.  People are not here to speak to you one on one.  Make comments on a net some basis of positives and negatives.  Continuing to hanker on negatives is not a positive thing.

Furthermore learn to show respect to fellow spners if you expect them to take you respectfully.  Confrontation is not the answer nor people responding to your posts in like tone an aberration, low or suddenly an attack.  You are getting what your posts ask for.

Please respect women in this thread and don't color all men as devils as most respondents in this thread are actually men who are making positive contributions, giving ideas, etc.  For example,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/37631-women-in-sikhi-2.html#post156830

Sat Sri Akal.


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## seeker3k (Dec 16, 2011)

In the Harmander there is 10X20 bilbord where it is posted on the wall for every one to read.
If any one here is real son of his father go there and take that bilbord off and see what can happen.
It is easy to talk on net
Thos who have studied and wrote history are wrong. only people here are right.


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Dec 16, 2011)

seeker3k said:


> V
> . No gurdwara is managed by woman in any part of the world. There is no woman granthi in any gurdwara.
> 
> Women all over the world been abused for thousands years by men. It is about time they get their right and live in honor. It is up to men to make it happen.



Seeker ji, 

You sound so very angry.  I truly wish you could find some peace within yourself.  The weight of all that rage must be a heavy burden to bear.  I am very serious.  I am not being sarcastic or treating it lightly.  Dear Seeker, your deeply caring and passionate nature could be used for so much good, if only you could learn to turn the negative around into positive action.  

About your comment.  Just for the sake of accuracy, there is a gurdwara in the Maritimes, Newfoundland, I think, that is being run very successfully by the Kaurs.  I know it's only one, but it's a start.

Second, the men cannot free the women.  Freedom is something that must be taken;  it cannot be given.  Our dear brothers can be supportive and cheer us on, but in the end, we must do it ourselves.


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 16, 2011)

seeker3k said:


> In the Harmander there is 10X20 bilbord where it is posted on the wall for every one to read.


_Can you please stop riddling as you appear to be adding nothing positive unless I missed something._


seeker3k said:


> If any one _here is real son of his father_ go there and take that bilbord off and see what can happen.


_I am assuming you are not real your self and could not do.  So are looking to delegate and challenge everyone with your further statements of stupidity which usually get quite a different reaction face to face._


seeker3k said:


> It is easy to talk on net
> Thos who have studied and wrote history are wrong. only people here are right.


_Whatever __!!

_Take a chill pill.  You are not too welcome with such posts.  I will still say,

Sat Sri Akal_  and (Sadah Pisha Shadoh Ji peacesign)
_


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## ravneet_sb (Dec 16, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

Inderjeet Kaur Ji,

the men cannot free the women. 

Equal dependencies can be observed in man too.

True for men and women both. One is slave of one's one thought process. 
How one slave can free other slave. 

It's like 

Why beggar's are called beggar's, 
though everyone begs 
because 
they seek something from man or woman or  humans..  
What better,   one beggar can give to other beggar.

They don't seek strength for self  from all mighty 
from which everyone begs, .


Freedom is something that must be taken; it cannot be given. Our dear brothers can be supportive and cheer us on, but in the end, we must do it ourselves.

Freedom/Independence/ is state of mind, 
no one can give to other, 
except who owe  that "THE STATE OF MIND". 

Waheguru Ji K Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Dec 16, 2011)

ravneet_sb said:


> Sat Sri Akaal,
> 
> Inderjeet Kaur Ji,
> 
> ...



Thank you for clarification.


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## ravneet_sb (Dec 16, 2011)

Sat Sri Akaal,

What one "seeks", one "see".

After getting bored with art movie, one want's to watch "SEEK" Masala movie.

One "SEEKS" and "SEE" advertisement of "MASALA" movie, though educational/ motivational movies are there.

It's self learning forum.

One must  clear to "One's Own Self" 

What one "SEEK's"

Discipline or Indiscipline.

Our expressions are reflection's of "State of Mind" and mind reflects a lot. 


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Naamsimiran (Jan 3, 2012)

Sat Nam Waheguru Ji

I hope you all had a good Guru Gobind Singh Ji prakash!
Happy New year to you all too.

I haven't been on SPN for a while as I have been really busy. But thought I would give an update to anyone who was interested:

I have an updated website and a more informal  blog, so ppl can follow my work on my MA on South Asian Women/Women and  Sikhism (starting point) and other creative work.

http://<wbr>sabbicreate.wordpress.com/
http://sabbikaur.tumblr.com/
http://sabbikaur.co.uk/

Hope you enjoy them.

Sat Nam Waheguru japposatnamwaheguru:


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## HGNIS (Jan 27, 2012)

To my Sikh brothers who were born and raised in the West, it is up to us to challenge the patriarchal society in which we live and give the due love and respect we should to our sisters and mothers and wives and girlfriends. We have internalized so many notions of "manhood" and  femininity through centuries of tradition and do not even question the things that are oppressing women. Women in our homes aren't treated right half the time, so how can we expect the larger community to do right by Sikh women? We need to fix our homes and our families and then fix our Gurudwaras to stop with the patriarchal structure we have constructed.


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## Naamsimiran (Jan 27, 2012)

Fatheh Jis

HGNIS. It is true and I would also add, women need to also stop oppressing women. Mother - in laws and sister in laws need to stop bullying daughter in laws. Women need to stop bullying each other and stop putting each other down in terms of 'what their children are doing' and 'if they are married or not'. Where is the humanity and compassion in that?

Sat Nam


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## Harry Haller (Jan 27, 2012)

Naamsimiran said:


> Fatheh Jis
> 
> HGNIS. It is true and I would also add, women need to also stop oppressing women. Mother - in laws and sister in laws need to stop bullying daughter in laws. Women need to stop bullying each other and stop putting each other down in terms of 'what their children are doing' and 'if they are married or not'. Where is the humanity and compassion in that?
> 
> Sat Nam



the trouble is the pack mentality which can be hard to break from, bullies are generally cowards, maybe we should start a thread on what you should do if you are being intimated or bullied by your elders


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jan 27, 2012)

> Mother - in laws and sister in laws need to stop bullying daughter in laws.


 
That women-against-women thing is part of a woman's DNA. You cannot change it. And the punjabi culture doesn't help either. You need a freakin' high level of enlightenment to realize your actions!


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## Harry Haller (Jan 27, 2012)

Kanwaljitji 

_That women-against-women thing is part of a woman's DNA._

I have always admired your bravery veerji


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## Naamsimiran (Jan 28, 2012)

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru Ji Ke Fateh

I am not completely sure its part of a women's DNA. I think we need to look at other factors if we are going to move on as a community Ji. If we just in point this on DNA, it means women and men don't have a choice or can not become aware of their actions, either through meditation/prayer or psychological analyses. 

I personally think it is to do with the level of frustration and unhappiness a women feels and other factors. 

1. As most women get a hard time, either in India or the UK, and the level of power is minimal until they become an elder or mother in law / sister in law, they exert their power fully and abuse it. There then becomes a cycle, where as daughter in laws become mother in laws, they carry out the same kind of nastiness.

2. If one is frustrated with ones life, either because certain choices are made for them or have been taken away, or have been abused, the mind gets bitter and wishes to unleash its frustrations on others. I have seen this happen many times. Where even the nicest of women, have become quite nasty, because really inside they are unhappy.

3. If an arrange marriage takes place where neither party is really happy with it, both male and female again feel that sense of bitterness. The man may turn to drink or unfortunately find someone else, the women is resentful and turns into something she may not have initially wanted to be. Arrange marriages work for some, but can be very destructive too, especially if both involved don't really want one and may have been nudged, guilt tripped, coerced into having one. 

4. Men can also be very nasty to each other. They put each other down and also bully each other. So is this their DNA?, for both men and women, also ego comes into play e.g 'I am better than you' , 'my children are doing something better than yours etc'. When Indian's migrate to England through marriage or other means, especially if they come from a a poor family, and they do well in England it is difficult to be aware of the ego, as they had so little and want to rejoice, but perhaps do not really know how, but to show off. Others who are wealthy, and because we are so hung up on status, show off anyway. Again all this is to do with the ego.

5. Also their is a huge sense of fear in our communities, built up through various avenues, so people take this out on each other. 

As Yoda says in Star Wars 'Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering'.

So I don't think its black and white. Also I feel it is more useful to look at the bigger picture so change can take place. Questions we could ask ourselves as a community may be:

1. Are there factors that are affecting men and women's well being that we can do something about?
2. Are all arranged/forced marriages OK? Are both people really wanting it?
3. Why are our women unhappy? (apart from the separation from Waheguru)
4. Why are men unhappy? (apart from the separation from Waheguru)
5. Are there ways of getting women to talk about the bullying? And men to talk about it?
6. Instead of focusing on egotistical gains, how can we improve our communities and or wider communities?

Anyway that is my humble opinion. Apologies if I offended anyone.

Sat Naam. icecreamkaur


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## Harry Haller (Jan 28, 2012)

Naamsimranji, 

I agree with you fully, however if we take the case of a young wife being bullied by all and sundry, what is the correct thing for her to do? stand up to it? Even as someone that has no contact with the Sikh community like me knows this is going to be hard, it will show disrespect and bring shame on the girls family, take it with good grace? inform your husband? inform your parents? What is the correct Sikh way to deal with this, what would Guruji have advised? 

Personally speaking, if it were me, and my husband raised his hand against me, I would advise him to make  sure he had his quota of children as it would be unlikely to increase after that event, 

In our community we automatically assume all those older are wise and knowledgeable, but from my experience, there is an awful lot of misinformation and Vedic habits passed down from generation to generation, and its getting worse every day. 

There seems little point wearing a turban, doing Nitnem, if your core thinking is so corrupted you would allow your wife to suffer at the hands of some bitter old crone just because she happens to be your mother. In my view, doing the 'right' thing is more important than any family tie, it is doing the right thing and being true for the sake of your faith, and I am afraid that supersedes anything else,


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## Navdeep88 (Jan 28, 2012)

Just an FYI,

this thread was merely about discussion about the accepted role, prescene of women in context to the Sikh Community. It was not, and is not a criticism of Sikhi itself. 

It was about the interaction between males and females in the Punjabi/Sikh community and how its needs a little observation... I can speak first hand that although bringing up your daughters to be polite, meek and accepting of others is good... often times its those very qualities that lead them to tolerate behaviour that no person should. Especially when it goes to the point of making another feel worthless...  

Now, I'm not saying women want to be men... we're not, and don't want to be. But just that in general the interaction between the males and females in Punjabi/Sikh households is that a woman's thoughts, feelings are often not taken into account. And I'm sorry to say that we're actually thoughtful creatures, we think... its something that should be taken into consideration. Now I can't speak for all women... but I know a lot of what a person is and what they become is conditioning. And men, as fathers, brothers, husbands are a big part of that.... please take that into consideration. That although we are daughters, sisters, and wives... we may actually have a dream or two.  We look to you to support and protect us in our pursuits, whether they be external, in the world... whatever they may be, we look to you to support us just like you often look to us for the same... Its a give and take relationship. 

*No disrespect to any brothers above, or any in real life. I'm not friggin stomping on anybody, just saying... that things need to shift a little bit... just a little bit. (this is also just my opinion, should you have a completely different opionion, thats cool. b/c at the end of the day, this is a place where philosophical discussion happens... where ideas are brought to the table etc. doesn't mean everybody has to agree, but that we walk away with some semblance of awareness of an issue... ) thank you


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Jan 28, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Personally speaking, if it were me, and my husband raised his hand against me, I would advise him to make  sure he had his quota of children as it would be unlikely to increase after that event,



No man has ever dared to raise his hand against me.  I'm pretty adequate at unarmed self-defense and my kirpan is sharp and I really know how to use it. Any man involved with me more deeply than casual conversation knows these things about me.  Understand that I am a bit less than five feet tall, not a large imposing type at all.  I am sorry that we have to resort to violence, but if anyone dares to strike me, I will not turn the other cheek;  one of us will probably be severely injured. 

All of our daughters should be so trained and we would wipe out physical spousal abuse in one generation.  

I believe the emotional and verbal abuse would go as well.  Once she makes it clear she can't be bullied, the bully - a coward - will seek out an easier victim.


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## Harry Haller (Jan 28, 2012)

Navdeepji

I slightly disagree with you, in that you say things need to shift a little bit, no, things need to shift a huge amount, women need to be given a full and equal presence on a par with men. 

Unfortunately it begins right at the beginning.There are elements of the Sikh Marriage Ceremony I find uhmm distasteful, these are not religious elements, they are traditional elements, which do nothing to set the foundations for an equal relationship.

1 The girl walks behind the man
2 The girl has to leave her fathers house in tears (not sure about this one, been a long time since I went to a wedding)
3 The girl has to be helped (forced?) round the SGGS by her family
4 The dowry arrangements do nothing for equality
5 The transfer of being a daughter from her own family to the grooms family

No man has to go through these rituals, but for a woman, it clearly shows her place in the new family/marriage. 

Complete equality, which is what Guruji preached, is just that , dare I say it, but more Vedic baggage to be dumped I think


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## Harry Haller (Jan 28, 2012)

Inderjeet Kaur said:


> No man has ever dared to raise his hand against me.  I'm pretty adequate at unarmed self-defense and my kirpan is sharp and I really know how to use it. Any man involved with me more deeply than casual conversation knows these things about me.  Understand that I am a bit less than five feet tall, not a large imposing type at all.  I am sorry that we have to resort to violence, but if anyone dares to strike me, I will not turn the other cheek;  one of us will probably be severely injured.
> 
> All of our daughters should be so trained and we would wipe out physical spousal abuse in one generation.
> 
> I believe the emotional and verbal abuse would go as well.  Once she makes it clear she can't be bullied, the bully - a coward - will seek out an easier victim.



Inderjeetji, you are as fiery as my dear wife, I wish there were more women like the both of you, I would love to see the face of a cowardly wife beating man who had the misfortune to come across either of you,


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## Naamsimiran (Jan 28, 2012)

Harry Haller Ji

You are right. What does the women in this case do? Plus yes as our Guru's said:

'Higher than Truth is Truthful Living'.

That is the most difficult part and there are no real quick answers. 

In my opinion it is better to perhaps to sort the core of the issue rather than trying to sort the problem after it is done.

i.e. Don't allow such marriages to take place. 
- If the man does not really feel anything for his wife in the first place, it is unlike that he will stick up for her as he did not want to be with her in the first place.
- Make sure you really know the family you are marrying into. What are the extended family like?
- Marriages happen at a very young age, where both men and women may not have the capacity to deal with such bullying.
- The old age traditions of staying with the the mother-in-law is outdated. Is she a daughter in law or slave?

I know I may be being really harsh, but there are so many of my sisters and brothers out there suffering, because as communities we refuse to give up cultural traditions that just don't work. There are positive stories of arrange marriages, but this is just good luck.

Maybe there can be systems of introductory marriages, where families who know each other allow the children to get to know each other and have a choice of saying No. Again there is the whole shame thing here. I am from a Sikh community and I understand the idea of shame.

But if that generation doesn't change, the next generation need to and need to really start challenging the traditions and saying enough is enough and say No that is not the way. 

Sikh have always fought against injustice. We are not fighting the Muguals now, but we do need to fight the injustice happening in our own communities, by questioning and standing up against it, no matter who it is coming from.

This is not an easy thing, but it is possible. 

continued....


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## Harry Haller (Jan 28, 2012)

I agree with everything my above sisters have said, given the choice between shameful truth or respectful lies, give me shame every time


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## Naamsimiran (Jan 28, 2012)

Fatheh Ji

As for women who are getting bullied:

- perhaps get in touch with South Asian women centres that help with such cases.

- don't feel guilty about 'bring shame'  - as it is not your fault.

- if you can, yes do stand up. If you get physically abused for this... then there are laws in this country which will protect you.

- if you have a good relationship with your husband and the mother-in-law is the problem, talk to them, The husbands need to stand up to their mother as any mental, physical, verbal abuse is against Sikh principles and just principles of humanity.

- it is not just the role of the husband or the women being bullied, if you are part of a family where this is going on, stop fearing 'shame' and do something about it. You can ring the police anonymously or get help from South Asian help groups on their behalf. Ring up for them or give them the number to ring (see below for links).

- If it is really bad for the women, then she really needs to get out of the situation and other family members need to help her do this. We can't continue to let this happen.

- The women needs to find people within the family who will be on her side or even a friend. And if someone in this situation comes to you - help them.

Something needs to be set up in Gudwaras to deal with this too. Forums or help centres.

Some good websites for women in this situation:

SAWNET
http://www.sawnet.org/orgns/violence.php

The SHARAN Project
http://www.sharan.org.uk/

Women's Aid:
http://www.womensaid.org.uk/?gclid=CLjBuIDW8q0CFQcNtAodnkGEsA

Sakhi
http://www.sakhi.org/# (New york)

Refuge
http://refuge.org.uk/about-us/what-we-do/asian-services/

Apologies again if I have made any mistakes in what I have said. I just feel passionately about this and it needs to stop. Lets not remain passive, but take action like our Gurus did.

Guru Nanak came from a Hindu family. Did he fear the 'shame' that his father may have felt in his community when Guru Ji went against Hindu rituals, like tying a black thread around your wrist? Can you imagine if Guru Nanak did fear the 'shame' he might bring, we would not have Sikhi!

I am also not just saying this with mere words. I have supported many women to find ways either not to get themselves into a marriage they didn't want or supported them in a difficult situation. 

Sometimes we argue and say well they were Gurus. But we forget the Guru's light is within us. So lets use it.

Stand up to it or help others to stand up. Support each other.

Sat Nam.


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## Naamsimiran (Jan 28, 2012)

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru Ji Ke Fatheh.

Fatheh Ji

Apologies for all the post. Like I said I do feel passionately about this topic.

Another thing which is disturbing is the idea of using 'karma' as an excuse for not doing anything or passively accepting what is happening in our communities or as a abused women accepting it and not taking action.

Personally I am not sure we are enlightened enough to understand how 'karma' works. We also use it as an excuse to remain passive. Plus we forget just to be logical and pragmatic about a situation. 

Sikh philosophy talks about karma and that is fine as we do have our journeys to walk, but  we can't use it as an excuse either. 

There are actions we can take. Our beloved Guru Gobind Ji took action against oppression. Mai Bhago Ji took action. There are women in Sikh history that acted: http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/personalities/sikhwomen/prosikhwomen.htm

Also it helps if we use the prayers of our Guru's to empower us, so we can stand up.

Sat Naam cheerleader


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## Harry Haller (Jan 28, 2012)

I am not hugely enlightened myself, but my definition of Karma is that if I kick a dog, then it will probably bite me, what happened before I was born, or after I die is of absolutely no relevance to me whatsoever, it is more of a Vedic concept brought about for the very reason of control through the way described above. 

This is all the life we have jios, as Sikhs we must accept that we make our lot in this life without any interference from previous lives, if indeed you believe that sort of thing, which is a personal issue between you and Creator. 

Naamsimranji, please stop apologising, you have a huge valid point, it needs no apology, what it needs now is more action, more people to voice the fact that inequality within Sikhi is not acceptable


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## Naamsimiran (Jan 28, 2012)

Fatheh

Lol! Ok I will stop apologising. 

Harry Haller. Personally I have no real idea what karma is or whether it really exists or not. If it exists then fair enough, if not then fair enough too. 

I just know that we seem to use is as an excuse to stop ourselves and others reach their potential. Plus I strongly agree it is used to control the masses.

Inequality is not acceptable in Sikhism or anywhere really.

Thanks for all the great post.

Sat Nam Jio.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jan 28, 2012)

> If we just in point this on DNA, it means women and men don't have a choice or can not become aware of their actions, either through meditation/prayer or psychological analyses.


 
I would say being men and women we have certain impulses programmed into us. And we have to be aware of our impulses and not act on them. That can only be done if our mind is controlled by Simran. And of course we have to acknowledge that we have such impulses.



> I personally think it is to do with the level of frustration and unhappiness a women feels and other factors.


 
Yes it is not that I have ruled that out. That's why I also consider the goodies which come with Punjabi culture to be of high weightage.



> There then becomes a cycle, where as daughter in laws become mother in laws, they carry out the same kind of nastiness.


 
If the world has been bad to you, you can do either things... be bad to someone who comes under you. Or make a pledge not to have the future generation suffer the same fate as you.

Saas Bahu stories are always very much on the edge. It could start with something as simple as the son/husband asking for his wife's cooked sabzi's second serving.



> Where even the nicest of women, have become quite nasty, because really inside they are unhappy.


 
I have seen an extreme where a woman with the most happiest life would torture her daughter in law, just to have sons and family's attention and be able to rule the roost.



> Arrange marriages work for some, but can be very destructive too, especially if both involved don't really want one and may have been nudged, guilt tripped, coerced into having one.


 
I guess one has to be ready for it when they know that the arranged marriage is inevitable. Marriage will always come with some + points and some - points. We just have to make sure the + are on higher side for both people. But later is the marriage, lesser is the chance people are willing to change themselves.



> Men can also be very nasty to each other. They put each other down and also bully each other. So is this their DNA?


 
I agree, but that bullying is so much part of how men hang together. In a group, all friends would make fun of each other. Same at work place. You always know who are your true friends, and casual ones and ones total enemies. But you don't get back at them with vengeance.



> Others who are wealthy, and because we are so hung up on status, show off anyway. Again all this is to do with the ego.


 
Yes showing off has always been the problem with Indian families. When I see the people in Western Culture, I respect them a lot for being 'anchored' in life, and not being a wild boat rocking around in the waves. E.g. they don't buy things they don't want with money they don't have to impress people they don't like.



> Also their is a huge sense of fear in our communities, built up through various avenues, so people take this out on each other.


 
Every woman also has a fear of some other woman taking over her role. Men have it too, but I think they can handle it better. The web is full of comics, jokes, videos etc. parodying it. There is some truth to it. I think women are more stronger when there is a graver issue at hand, while men find it easy to ignore smaller issues.



> As Yoda says in Star Wars 'Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering'.


 
I love Yoda!



> 1. Are there factors that are affecting men and women's well being that we can do something about?


 
Most probs figure out when someone (ie your spouse) is getting plagued by a fear and help them combat that.



> 2. Are all arranged/forced marriages OK? Are both people really wanting it?


 
Sure if you are nearing 30 and still single, you might be wanting it 



> 3. Why are our women unhappy? (apart from the separation from Waheguru)


 
I think that is the only answer which can guide people out of their miseries! Ego and jealousy will always keep you blind towards Guru.



> 4. Why are men unhappy? (apart from the separation from Waheguru)


 
Since men like to think they are earning for the family, and handling all its affairs, they 
tend to be taken down by greed and anger more often.

Outside the scope of Gurbani and Gurmat, we might come up with points and plan of action. But it will not be effective as long as we don't have the khitch (string pulling) towards Waheguru.


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Jan 29, 2012)

I don't know about karmas from past lives.  I know that here and now I have this compulsion to act.  If I see an injustice it is my duty, my privilege,  as Sikh and Khalsa to stop injustice, peacefully if possible, using violence if necessary.  

I find it especially annoying when a Sardarni is abused.  Our Gurus made it clear that women are not to be mistreated.  If a singh cannot or will not treat his wife properly, how can he be trusted to protect other women?  It is up to us women to put an end to this nonsense.  We need to learn self-defence and see to it that our daughters learn, as well.

And, also, we need to refuse to kill our daughters.  That is the ultimate disrespect.

Harry ji is right, BTW, Naamsimiran ji.  No apologies are necessary.  You are making good sense.  We women are taught to feel guilty every time we open our mouths and don't just go along.  





> I hereby proclaim that no Sikh woman need ever feel guilty for politely speaking her mind.  I don't much like rudeness, but will accept it, if courtesy doesn't work.



There!  Now that is done.cheerleader


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## Naamsimiran (Jan 29, 2012)

Sat Naam Jio

I agree with both of the above.
It is good to know people are at least thinking and discussing theses points. 

When I referred to DNA in reference to Kanwaljit Ji, I meant I am not sure the whole 'women against women' is part of their DNA as men do this too. But I do agree with Kanwaljit's second point that both men and women have certain impulses. 



Kanwaljit Singh said:


> That women-against-women thing is part of a woman's DNA. You cannot change it. And the punjabi culture doesn't help either. You need a freakin' high level of enlightenment to realize your actions!



As for Punjabi culture. Yes there are many things that are part of specific to Punjabi culture, which indeed doesn't help. But also some of these things are common to lots of cultures. Like gossiping and putting people down. That is universal!  And is more likely to do with the Ego and other impulses.

I would add that culture and consciousness is also fluid and the next generation and can work towards breaking cycles of the past. It is challenging, but can be done. Like Kanwaljit Ji says by doing Simiran and becoming aware of these things, having such discussions, and having the heart to change it or not put up with it.

Kanwaljit's second quote.
I would say being men and women we have certain impulses programmed into us. And we have to be aware of our impulses and not act on them. That can only be done if our mind is controlled by Simran. And of course we have to acknowledge that we have such impulses.

Thanks Inderjeet Ji for your post. Very inspiring.

Sat Naam to all.

kaurhug


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## findingmyway (Feb 20, 2012)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> Yes showing off has always been the problem with Indian families. When I see the people in Western Culture, I respect them a lot for being 'anchored' in life, and not being a wild boat rocking around in the waves. E.g. they don't buy things they don't want with money they don't have to impress people they don't like.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## findingmyway (Feb 20, 2012)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> That women-against-women thing is part of a woman's DNA. You cannot change it. And the punjabi culture doesn't help either. You need a freakin' high level of enlightenment to realize your actions!



Kanwaljit,  Thats a bit harsh and not a sentiment I would have expected from you.  Are you saying all women are bullies but men are not? Are you saying  that women have more vicious impulses then men as it is in the women's  DNA but not a man's? Are you saying men are not as vengeful? I spent  most of my school life bullied by males and a chunk of my work life  harrassed by them so I completely disagree. Impulses are not part of DNA  but part of humanity. To confuse the 2 is dangerous!! DNA may make you more susceptible to impulses but that is a different matter and is definitely not gender specific swordfight





> Harry Haller
> Kanwaljitji
> 
> _That women-against-women thing is part of a woman's DNA._
> ...


Brave only is telling the truth. Hiding behind blame and biology is narrow minded.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 20, 2012)

> Rubbish!! If that were the case there wouldn't be so much debt in this country . If that were the case, people wouldn't have to save all year just to pay for Xmas. Every culture has its issues and they are often similar as essentially all humans are the same!


 
There is debt because there's been an unmonitored giving away of loans. And the western culture is such to save little and spend more. They still don't show off. They spend it on themselves even if they have a hint of a want for a thing!



> Kanwaljit, Thats a bit harsh and not a sentiment I would have expected from you. Are you saying all women are bullies but men are not? Are you saying that women have more vicious impulses then men as it is in the women's DNA but not a man's? Are you saying men are not as vengeful?


 
Hehehe I read the first line here as something 'expected from me' 

I am not calling all women bullies. But yes there is a pattern on how a woman would perceive the other woman. And it is probably in the DNA of a female.



> I spent most of my school life bullied by males and a chunk of my work life harrassed by them so I completely disagree. Impulses are not part of DNA but part of humanity. To confuse the 2 is dangerous!! DNA may make you more susceptible to impulses but that is a different matter and is definitely not gender specific


 
Consider these 2 scenarios, you as a wife need a watch and your husband plans to buy it for you. The next day your father visits you and gifts you one. How will the husband react? Now think that your husband needs a watch and you plan to gift, but his mother visits next day and she has brought one along. How would the wife react?

Personally (and I may be biased and totally misguided) I feel there would be a difference. I am not talking about bullying here. Just the way how men and women digest the changes in environment or their plans by other person of same gender.



> Brave only is telling the truth. Hiding behind blame and biology is narrow minded.


 
I am talking about women vs women so there is nothing to blame 'men' for in this, is it?

PS: @Admins, isn't this thing really off-topic since long?


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## findingmyway (Feb 21, 2012)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> There is debt because there's been an unmonitored giving away of loans. And the western culture is such to save little and spend more. They still don't show off. They spend it on themselves even if they have a hint of a want for a thing!



I disagree. Christmas for example is not about spending more on yourself but buying bigger and better presents to prove you are the better person even if it takes you beyond your means. The showing off takes other forms to that in Indian culture but is showing off nonetheless.





> I am not calling all women bullies. But yes there is a pattern on how a woman would perceive the other woman. And it is probably in the DNA of a female.
> 
> Consider these 2 scenarios, you as a wife need a watch and your husband plans to buy it for you. The next day your father visits you and gifts you one. How will the husband react? Now think that your husband needs a watch and you plan to gift, but his mother visits next day and she has brought one along. How would the wife react?
> 
> Personally (and I may be biased and totally misguided) I feel there would be a difference. I am not talking about bullying here. Just the way how men and women digest the changes in environment or their plans by other person of same gender.


In this case you are misguided as you are judging things from your limited experience. If you read psychological research, reactions are dictated by personality and culture and experience. All of these things affect both genders. Culture probably brings in the bias you are observing between sexes as you will likely be exposed to limited cultures close up. I have worked in Europe, Asia, South America, Australasia and Africa and this has completely busted sterotypes for me!! Looking at things professionally the DNA argument just does not fly. It is a huge insult to women the world over.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 21, 2012)

> In this case you are misguided as you are judging things from your limited experience. If you read psychological research, reactions are dictated by personality and culture and experience.


 
Any kind of research will be limited too! There is no research which has mapped the psyche of every human on Earth. Of course my crappy inputs will be based on what I have seen in life. Btw look at this research http://brainmind.com/Competition.html



> All of these things affect both genders. Culture probably brings in the bias you are observing between sexes as you will likely be exposed to limited cultures close up. I have worked in Europe, Asia, South America, Australasia and Africa and this has completely busted sterotypes for me!!


 
I agree the more you travel, the better view of things you have.



> Looking at things professionally the DNA argument just does not fly. It is a huge insult to women the world over.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


 
I am really really sorry if you have been insulted by my comments. And if you feel so, I would not comment here further.


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## findingmyway (Feb 21, 2012)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> Any kind of research will be limited too! There is no research which has mapped the psyche of every human on Earth. Of course my crappy inputs will be based on what I have seen in life. Btw look at this research http://brainmind.com/Competition.html



Of course research is flawed but at least it is less biased than personal experience alone as it is more objective. It is also more easily extracted to the population of the world as a whole than a single person's social sphere.




> I am really really sorry if you have been insulted by my comments. And if you feel so, I would not comment here further.


Of course I am insulted and so are many of the other women reading this! You are telling us that our 2nd X chromosome makes us mean spirited and cruel. Most of my personal experience with males has not been happy. Using *your* philosophy I declare males to be chauvinistic, selfish, self absorbed and cruel. And this is due to your Y chromosome.
Of course, this is a ridiculous assertion and I am sure you don't believe it anymore than I do but it is just as valid as what you are saying.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 21, 2012)

I think you are taking my phrase 'in their DNA' too literally. I just meant it is something programmed into women, which like you said could be by the society too! I wasn't really talking at genetic level. I nowhere hinted anything about the Y or the X!


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## BhagatSingh (Feb 21, 2012)

Oh the irony!


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## Navdeep88 (Feb 22, 2012)

_

Quote:
 <table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset">                              I am really really sorry if you have been insulted by my comments. And if you feel so, I would not comment here further.                      </td> </tr> </tbody></table> 
"Of course I am insulted and so are  many of the other women reading this! You are telling us that our 2nd X  chromosome makes us mean spirited and cruel. Most of my personal  experience with males has not been happy. Using *your* philosophy I declare males to be chauvinistic, selfish, self absorbed and cruel. And this is due to your Y chromosome.Of course, this is a ridiculous assertion and I am sure you don't  believe it anymore than I do but it is just as valid as what you are  saying."
_

haha findingmyway ji,
I think Kanwaljit Singh Ji may be going by the popular perception in Hindi dramas etc., and unforutnately some women are like that, and like you mention, some men are like that too. I think it just depends on how strong a person is as an individual, meaning how much they can bear, understand etc., before clicking into biological animal mode of insecurity and possessiveness etc.


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## Luckysingh (Feb 22, 2012)

Gurfateh

      Ladies, females or girls.
  Lets face it. MEN are different to women and always will be.
Just like James Brown sang Its a mans world--------I totally agree.

Although I say 'Its a mans world _with_ a _womans touch'_

Behind every great man is ____________?
Well, sadly its us men that try to look for another man behind their own success, ignorantly blinded to seeing the real woman behind it.

Men refuse to accept, whether we admit or not.

I mean regardless of my chromosomes I have NEVER met a man that can multitask. I mean a woman can be often seen feeding the baby in one hand, cooking whole family dinner whilst havingon the phone a genuine conversation using the other hand ALL  3 things at the same time.
HOW does she do that?

A man can NEVER do that, that's why I don't know the answer of how she does it!!

But face it ladies, we can park the car using one hand and without turning around.


Sat kartar
Lucky Singh


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Feb 22, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Gurfateh
> 
> Ladies, females or girls.
> Lets face it. MEN are different to women and always will be.
> ...



These days, I have only one useful hand and I can do almost anything that a two-handed Singh can do, including parallel parking with finesse.

And ain't I a woman?

When the Punjab police decided I was the weakest of our group and so singled me out for special treatment, I, with Guru ji's help, won the encounter and came away with no permanent injuries other than a few scars.

And ain't I a woman?

When the chips were down in Delhi and we were under murderous attack, I pulled out my kirpan and cut the throat of one of the dushts - darned near decapitated the b*star*d, licked his blood from my lips and kept fighting.

And ain't I a woman?

I died two times during a stroke, was revived and survived with my left side paralysed.  I learned to walk and talk and do just about everything I did before.

And ain't I a woman?

Don't you Singhs ever dare to talk down to us Kaurs or be patronising!  We don't like it.  We are as strong and capable as you when we need to be.  If we were properly taught to be warrior princesses as Kaurs should be, you would be shocked and dismayed at what we could do.  OK, there is one thing you can do that we cannot.  We cannot father a child.

I was going to just read and keep silent but you Singhs need to be told exactly who you're dealing with when you show disrespect to Kaurs.  Yes, we love you and want you and you really can be most attractive, but if you want to keep us, knock off the dissing.

Sisters!  Ain't I a woman!


:swordfight-kudiyan::angryyoungkaur:icecreamkaur

With thanks to Sojourner Truth.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 22, 2012)

_Lets face it. MEN are different to women and always will be._

uhmm I am not so sure, my mother and wife are both very strong willed, yet quite calm and compassionate. I think women have been put down through the ages, and it is only now that women are realising that they really are no different to men, and are embracing this. Centuries of brain washing is going to have an effect, and take time to recover from. 

It is all in the upbringing and the way society treats you that gives you an idea of who you are, if your upbringing and treatment by society confirms that you are 'A' then no doubt, you will become 'A', only the strong minded break this programming and demand equality, the rest see it as their lot and get on with it, in much the same way that untouchables get on with it in India. 

In our culture, girls have to see their brothers get treated better, more freedom, more respect, it boils down right to the expression on a new parents face when they are told the sex of the baby, the more enlightened could not care less, the stupid have been known to mourn when it is the wrong sex, or worse, abort. Given this mental treatment of women, it is no surprise that some women end up bitter and twisted, I would be bitter and twisted if all my life I had been led to believe I was second best, it has nothing whatsoever to do with women being different. 

There is no masculine or feminine qualities, we are all just people, I am as plentiful in my feminine qualities as I am in my masculine, as is my wife, sometimes it is me that needs a cuddle, sometimes it is me that makes dinner and cleans up, neither sex has a monopoly on the way you feel on a day to day basis.


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## Navdeep88 (Feb 22, 2012)

Lucky Singh Ji,

I do agree with what you say, to some extent but I would like to elaborate... 

if anything its a WOMAN'S world with a male facade. without the womb, the nurturing, the home... what would come to be?  It's time the credit went to the glue that holds everything together, the FEMININE, which I feel gets ignored in our culture. and it deserves to be celebrated b/c the repercussions of not acknowledging that are leading to things like rampant female infanticide, domestic abuse etc being viewed as ok!!! Fellas need to hear this, and spread it to others b/c usually the abuse happens at the hands of men (sadly) and no woman kills her baby without her husband knowing. 

-- THAT is the purpose of this thread, that the feminine deserves to be celebrated, and not be seen as weakness. 


signed,
a girl, female, woman who plans to be very successful in a "man's world"  AND to have a family, raise children etc. :grinningkudi:


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## Harry Haller (Feb 22, 2012)

I am not even sure what is feminine any more, they say behind every successful man is a woman, but I know for sure Sian stands by my side in everything I do, not behind, as for nurturing, keeping a home, etc, she has taught me plenty about all this, when we first lived together, I was a bit miffed when my dinner did not appear magically on the table, or my socks were not put in my draw, to be honest, yes I was a bit of a pig, but no other woman had behaved like her before, so I guess I was used to it, I lost a cook, cleaner, sexual plaything, but gained a friend and equal, I would not have it any other way now, we take turns being 'masculine' and 'feminine' depending on our workload, and what is going round us. 

The other month, we had dinner at a relatives house, after we had all eaten, the women started clearing up and washing while the men talked, in order to be polite, Sian did get up with the rest of the women, but I joined her, followed by my brother, and in the end, all of the men  got involved with the clearing and washing, and then all sat down to talk. 

Old habits die hard, it is up to all of us to change them, man or woman!


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## BaljinderS (Feb 22, 2012)

Ah very heated debate going on here. peacesign

I think we all agree that Sikhi is not to blame.  All these emotional,physical abuses arise from how you have been baught up, the kind of people you associate with and your role models,culture,poverty.

They are equally strong men and women (I don't just mean in the physical sense).

Men and women get influenced by what they see on TV, read in magazines and then the problems start.  I think we can all do with a reality check (I hope you see the funny side winkingmunda).  People should focus on themselves and not worry about what others think (I know that's easier said then done)


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## Luckysingh (Feb 22, 2012)

Gurfateh

If you read my post with care, you may notice the message I was trying to give was one of poking fun at us males. Men do, as a majority feel that they are superior to women. I was trying to state that this ignorant attitude is simply what it says- ignorant. The fact is without women majority of us would be completely lost. This is what makes men different, they are not capable in many capacities as much as women.

Its sad though that gender predjudice still goes on to this day even in sikhism.
Yes, I know many will try to clarify this insisting we are the fairest faith. Yes, we are supposed to be,but in reality in the background this predjudice still goes on.
Like I say, most us men are too ignorant to notice, but the women DO feel it but just put up and get on with it.

Recently a male friend of mine got married. I won't mention where, which country etc for his deserved privacy.
He is probably one of the most fairest characters on this planet. He did though cause quite a bit of controversy in deliberation.

1st he decided to marry outside his cast-( into a so called lower caste) much to the anger of elders. He was proud of this example he felt he should set just as a wake up call for his elders.
2ndly was the actual ceremony. Now, I believe the rehat maryada states that the man should lead in the process of the lama(pherei). 
He felt this as being sexist. Most of us actually just accept it with ignorance I suppose.

Again, upsetting the elders and Giani-no doubt, the couple actually took it in turns to lead!! So, 2 lama with the man leading and 2 with the woman leading- fair enough, I say.
You can imagine the talk, I heard it all, from comments like it's not valid,its illegal,against sikhi, its a circus, the girl is meant to follow as she settles in his house ( even though, they had a house where only the 2 of them would both move together)......blah blah.....-I heard it all.
But, still many could only still give the couple nothing but praise and credit.

If only there were more people like this, that could bring such issues to attention.

I personally did not want to mention this event as a matter of respect. So, I would be even more grateful if I don't read comments of whether the couples decision was right or wrong- NO OPINIONS please. For the sake of the couples privacy I wouldn't want a further online issue.
Most people in the community were a bit shocked at first, but I feel they do somewhat applaud these actions. 
When I spoke to him last he claimed that they had no regrets whatsoever and he even wishes for a daughter to be their first child so that he can distribute ladhu and celebrate lohri- another lesson for us to learn, as this is more commonly done with birth of boys.

Sat kartar
Lucky Singh


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## Luckysingh (Feb 22, 2012)

harry haller said:


> _Lets face it. MEN are different to women and always will be._
> 
> uhmm I am not so sure, my mother and wife are both very strong willed, yet quite calm and compassionate. I think women have been put down through the ages, and it is only now that women are realising that they really are no different to men, and are embracing this.


 
Harry ji.

This is exactly what i'm saying. 
As a man you read my quote stating that men are different to women.
Immediately (as a man) you have assumed I'm degrading or poking fun at women!.....When i'm actually trying to state the opposite!!

Admit or not we all have some degree of predjudice within us. It is actually part of our EGO. This is what us sikhs must try to conquer within each of us.

I have said many times, that if God gave me a role change now, and made me a woman.- I would be NO GOOD, I just wouldn't manage. Yet, if my wife had to come into my shoes as a man, she would have no fear or any problem.

Sat kartar
Lucky Singh


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## findingmyway (Feb 22, 2012)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> I think you are taking my phrase 'in their DNA' too literally. I just meant it is something programmed into women, which like you said could be by the society too! I wasn't really talking at genetic level. I nowhere hinted anything about the Y or the X!



If its programming due to society then its not naturally in the nature is it, therefore there is no validity to that attitude. If it ain't biology, it ain't in the DNA! Stereotypes will only get a person so far.One of my oldest friends is currently fighting a court battle against an abusive husband for custody of their daughter. Statistically domestic abuse is more likely to be committed by men so is violence part of a man's nature and DNA? In essentials, there are no differences between men and women. It is how those essentials are utilised that is important and that can be changed by each and every person if the will is there.

Lucky Singh,
Your friend is not the only one to cause a stir with weddings. There are a few separate threads on the issue.


I would like to pay a tribute to my parents here, especially after reading many of the stereotypes portrayed here. I would like to thank them for showing me that stereotypes are not the way it has to be in a happy home. I would like to thank them for defying people's sympathy by declaring they wanted girls even before we were born. I would like to thank them for teaching us all to be independent strong women fully able to hold our own in the world. I would like to thank my mum, masi and both my grandmothers for being such amazing role models to us all our lives and showing us never to bow down to unreasonable society pressure. They are superwomen and able to balance everything life demands of them beautifully (better than the men of my family!!). I would like to thank my parents for not giving us a traditional upbringing so we are not stifled by culture and expectations. Thank you my wonderful parents for loving me and supporting me and giving me confidence as a human being and as their child regardless of my gender kudihug

I would like to finish on this topic by saying thank you Mai ji for your incredible reply. Ain't you a woman


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Feb 22, 2012)

> Statistically domestic abuse is more likely to be committed by men so is violence part of a man's nature and DNA? In essentials, there are no differences between men and women. It is how those essentials are utilised that is important and that can be changed by each and every person if the will is there.


 
I haven't said about women being violent or anything. The flow of discussion was that no mother-in-law and daughter-in-law live together on friendly terms. You are making a mountain of a mole hill.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 22, 2012)

findingmyway said:


> Using *your* philosophy I declare males to be chauvinistic, selfish, self absorbed and cruel. And this is due to your Y chromosome.
> Of course, this is a ridiculous assertion and I am sure you don't believe it anymore than I do but it is just as valid as what you are saying.


findingmyway ji say if I accept your statements above at face value and being valid, am I bad?  As we all know Science continues to discover more and more.  The more people think they are independent the more Science keeps proving dependencies whether DNA or other.

Separately, I absolutely marvel at Mai Harinder Kaur ji's life achievements and feel sad at times thinking I would have liked to die before her to be born and others massacred.  She is just an incredible person and in my mind very incomparable to others in certain ways during recent or even older history terms.  She is more than many of us collectively can be.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Navdeep88 (Feb 23, 2012)

Lucky Singh Ji,

I did read your post and agreed with it... all but the part about driving and multi-tasking. I don't really think those are true for all women or all men. I'm not such a bad driver, unless its garbage day, and there's cans in the driveway, then not so much. lol. but for the most part a good driver. idk, i agree w/ Harry Ji, the masculine and feminine are not rigid, we each have a little bit of both in us, and its also a matter of what you nurture in yourself, AND what society expects of you. 

but the other parts of your post, def agree with those things about perception.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 23, 2012)

The following touches on some aspects including how each woman is part man and each man is part woman or it all being as one,

Yusuf Azad Qawwal & Rashida Khatoon Live (BBC) - Aise Besharam Aashiq 

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/B7ZmCJigATU?version=3&feature=player_detailpage"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/B7ZmCJigATU?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>

Enjoy.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 23, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Harry ji.
> 
> This is exactly what i'm saying.
> As a man you read my quote stating that men are different to women.
> ...



Luckyji

I find your posts well written and pleasing to read, your views are not the same as mine on a few topics but thats ok, we are all here to share opinion and views, however this is the second time I feel you are trying to retrospectively change the essence of your post. 

You actually said, 

_Gurfateh

Ladies, females or girls.
Lets face it. MEN are different to women and always will be.
Just like James Brown sang Its a mans world--------I totally agree.

Although I say 'Its a mans world with a womans touch'

Behind every great man is ____________?
Well, sadly its us men that try to look for another man behind their own success, ignorantly blinded to seeing the real woman behind it._

You are quite correct, I find the above statement degrading to Women, it does not portray them as equals but as support mechanisms to men,

Until men wholeheartedly accept women as absolute equals rather than paying patronising lip service, nothing will change. 

Much respect to your friend, I hope you understand the essence of this post

peacesignkaur


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## BaljinderS (Feb 23, 2012)

From my personal view, I would be absolutely, I mean absolutely nothing without my wife.  I still think all this stems from your background, culture and the people you associate with.  If you have solid foundation then nothing in the world can shake you. 
Its a shame really, Sikhi has given us all the tools to improve our selves and we are still running around like headless chickens.  The world is crying out for the values that Sikhi gives us and we are brushing them aside and secretly hoping that the problems will go away.


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## findingmyway (Feb 23, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> findingmyway ji say if I accept your statements above at face value and being valid, am I bad?  As we all know Science continues to discover more and more.  The more people think they are independent the more Science keeps proving dependencies whether DNA or other.



Not bad, but misguided. Males are no worse then females just as females are no worse than males and_ that is the point_! The Y chromosome doesn't actually do much, it is the X that is active. In females one of the X chromosomes is switched 'off' so diseases that are in males only are not due to the Y chromosome but more due to the lack of a strong X which can counteract influences of the other one. Therefore, personality traits cannot be in the sex chromosomes as their inheritance is not simple enough and is highly dependent on the interaction with the environment. Also generalising to such a degree and implying the negative aspects cannot be changed as they are part of a person's makeup is not only defeatist and insulting to all human beings but it stops the incentive to try and change for the better by blaming it on biology.


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 18, 2015)

findingmyway said:


> .... _defeatist and insulting to all human beings but it stops the incentive to try and change for the better by blaming it on biology._


findingmyway ji the point was that logic and knowledge are intertwined.  If the knowledge changes then may be logic will fail.  So keeping an open mind but of course not to justify or act bad, in inequality, through discrimination, etc.

Sat Sri Akal.


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