# The Great Imp Debate



## Harry Haller (May 12, 2013)

*An imp is a mythological being similar to a fairy or demon, frequently described in folklore and superstition.*

Do they exist, do they not?


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## spnadmin (May 12, 2013)

Harry ji

Maybe you would give me/us some background on the "imp" and why it should be debated. I see it come up as a minor topic in different threads, but have never understood what was going on. Does this have anything to do with bhoots, preets, ghost or goblins, as referred to in Gurbani? Please clarify.


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## Harry Haller (May 12, 2013)

> In other post you have replied to my  furnishing proof of Gurbani accepting the existence of spoofs, spirits  and imps etc.
> 
> 
> Now let me know whether you agree to Gurbani that I have posted or refuse to accept.
> ...



Palaingthaji witnessed some dancing imps eating fish, later, his friend died, begging for fish, I have stated that imps do not exists, so rather than clog up other threads, if he wishes to debate this, he can do it here.


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## spnadmin (May 12, 2013)

Sorry to intervene again. We want the thread to get off to a decent start. Now that we have the background, here are some suggestions and ground rules.

1. Debates in Hard Talk are supposed to be lightly moderated so everyone feels free to speak his mind. That however does not mean that inflammatory language would be tolerated 100 percent of the time.

2 There has to be an issue which we can all grasp. Based on what I am reading so far, the debate is about 
*
Proof of Gurbani accepting the existence of spoofs, spirits and imps​*
3. The debate has to have some backbone in reliable sources such as SGGS, Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas, scientific articles, serious blogs with serious content, etc. Inflammatory material or sensationalism from places like facebook, YouTube or Yahoo weird news may be deleted without notice.

Carry on!

I appreciate that the debate was created so that another thread does not get hijacked.


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## Luckysingh (May 12, 2013)

harry haller said:


> Palaingthaji witnessed some dancing imps eating fish, later, his friend died, begging for fish, I have stated that imps do not exists, so rather than clog up other threads, if he wishes to debate this, he can do it here.


 
Are we being serious about the above ??
Were they dancing and eating fish ??:grinningsingh:


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## spnadmin (May 12, 2013)

Yes take it seriously. My own father reported something very similar once. He was not that old, so it cannot be blamed on old-age.

To stay on track.... what support is there from Gurbani?


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (May 13, 2013)

Has anyone seen this episode?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightmare_at_20,000_Feet

The pain point is that ... the experience of seeing an imp is limited to the observer. We don't have technology for shared sight yet!


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## linzer (May 14, 2013)

Oh what fun!!
Here in Mexico there is a widespread belief in "Duendes" which roughly translates a elf.
Supposedly they come to your house in the night and wash the dishes. I'm not kidding. 
Unfortunately they've never come to my house. 
When I asked my mother in law, a great believer in duendes, why no one has ever found duende bones. She told me that " they go to another dimension " you can't argue with that! My sister in law says they have the power to make you think your dreaming, yet another irrefutable argument. 
I just shake my head and enjoy the folklore.


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## akiva (May 14, 2013)

But the fact that ALL cultures around the world, even isolated ones, share the same belief raises interesting questions.

Questions that I think some people are too quick to dismiss.


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## palaingtha (May 14, 2013)

harry haller said:


> Palaingthaji witnessed some dancing imps eating fish, later, his friend died, begging for fish, I have stated that imps do not exists, so rather than clog up other threads, if he wishes to debate this, he can do it here.



Rather than coming under you influence on the belief that there are no bhoot, prets, imps, spirits I will have faith on what I experienced in 1945, when my friend asked for rice and fish after the happening and the Doctor refused to allow and my friend die the same night.
It is immaterial you or anybody believes it or not. As I cannot show you a bhoot, pret, imp or a spirit so you cannot show me God. But God is there and so the evil spirits.
And Gurbani accepts these things are there (while asking us not to be afraid of them, which is another issue as we are discussing their existence)


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## Astroboy (May 14, 2013)

I don't know if imps can be called Toyol. But there are many toyols in my neighborhood. One is a regular visitor to my house every night. I have dogs and cats and this invisible visitor who makes a peculiar sound every night at midnight or after midnight asking for 'his food'. Which is apparently lighting a joss stick scent. 

Just yesterday I had put his josstiick near the wash basin for easy disposal of the ash. But I forgot about the dhoop and went to wash my hand and it went off with sprinkled water touching it. Immediately, he sounded his 'need' again. So I lit the dhoop (jossstick) again and even opened my back door where he usually comes to receive the scent. He didn't object because he knows that I only open my backdoor to feed the puppies. 

In another instance, these toyols (imvisible to the naked eye) which are no more than the size of a small monkey, take the opportunity to enter the kitchen area of every home to partake the freshly discarded food from the bin. The fresher the food, the tastier it is to them. One day I had just boiled some home-made remedies and cooled the contents for refrigeration. The left over was still warm and I had left my main door open at night. This guy came in without my knowledge. When I closed the door, and went to my room, I heard scratching sounds at the door as if the cat was scratching the door. But then I realized that the sound is from the inside and not from the outside of the door. It startled me. That was kind of first experience for me. 

But these days, I sometimes miss these invisible beings when they don't come by. However, there are other ghosts in my house. They don't disturb me but help me my making sounds and coaxing me to get up . When I do get up I see that I have not locked my main door or my car. When my daughter came by with her kids to spend her weekend at my place, she was supposed to stay two nights but cut it short to only one night. So told me of disturbances like a man disturbing her while half asleep. In the morning she asked me if there are entities in this house, I said YES. The same thing happened to my friend who put up a night in my house. He told me of being unable to sleep like there was a presence. 

But you know, they don't bother me and I know they exist in every house even in the Gurdwaras.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (May 14, 2013)

> In another instance, these toyols (imvisible to the naked eye) which are  no more than the size of a small monkey, take the opportunity to enter  the kitchen area of every home to partake the freshly discarded food  from the bin.



Did you see the invisible being picking up the food?


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## Astroboy (May 14, 2013)

They are invisible to the naked eye. Over the years, I have shared real ghost stories with many people and what I write here is just the tip of an iceberg. People even ca,e to me thinking that I am a ghost buster, but you don't have to be. Just understand our bani that there are many such entities and also understand that they have their purpose just as we do. Hukmai Andar Sabh Ko, Bahar Hukam Na Koye...


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (May 14, 2013)

But have you seen food disappearing into thin air? Another thing, I live on the second floor. Are you on the ground floor? I know the ground floor is visited by rodents, cats and what not!


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## Astroboy (May 14, 2013)

Invisible beings don't eat physical food. Only their subtle energies. There seem to be some kind of laws they abide to. There seems to be a hierarchy amongst the various beings. More like a caste system (this is only my own opinion). They can read your thoughts if food is being presented to them by you as is usually widely practiced by Chinese Buddhists. The caste system allows the higher entities to partake the subtle energies before the lower entities are allowed to. 

We can only form opinions from the rate (time speed) the food becomes stale and even cats won't eat the left overs after that.


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## Harry Haller (May 14, 2013)

> When my daughter came by with her kids


 
Astroboyji

in your photo you look in your early twenties, what magic is this?


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## Astroboy (May 14, 2013)

I am a grandfather at 57. Many have told me I don't even look 45.


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## japjisahib04 (May 15, 2013)

Astroboy said:


> They are invisible to the naked eye. Over the years, I have shared real ghost stories with many people and what I write here is just the tip of an iceberg. People even ca,e to me thinking that I am a ghost buster, but you don't have to be. Just understand our bani that there are many such entities and also understand that they have their purpose just as we do. Hukmai Andar Sabh Ko, Bahar Hukam Na Koye...



Let us see how Bhagat kabir describe the pret, 'ਘਰ ਕੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਹਿਤੁ ਜਾ ਸਿਉ ਸਦਾ ਰਹਤ ਸੰਗ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ ਜਬ ਹੀ ਹੰਸ ਤਜੀ ਇਹ ਕਾਂਇਆ ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਕਰਿ ਭਾਗੀ ॥੨॥ Your wife, whom you love so much, and who has remained ever attached to you runs away crying, "Ghost! Ghost!", as soon as the swan-soul leaves this body. ||2|| p.634. First of all linking this sabd with married lady contradicts the universality of gurbani as it is not necessary that husband only dies first. Further literal translation of this sabd raises a logical question, 'do we expect from a lady whose husband is dead to lighten incense and make round around the dead husband, other than feeling sorry and take his body for final creation. When wife dies, husband also feels sorry accordingly, then why are we biased towards woman and pass comments on her. 


Then who is, this 'ghar ki naar' in above pankti. Let us contemplate on rahao pankti which is the central idea of this sabd, 'pritam jaan lehu mann mahi' guru sahib is pointing towards himself as a first person - so  over here 'ghar ki naar' is my 'maligned intellect - un-illuminated mind' who has developed his own philosophy or his own intelligence and is emotionally attached with it.  Here I would like to refer, my interaction with a local muslim who used to hit his head on the qoran and ground as a part of his prayer (like we sikh have developed a habit sitting in a corner and repeat waheguru) and had developed a deep cut on his forehead. When I suggested may be by actual reading of qoran it could be more helpful. I was told 'you pray your way and I will pray mine'. It is hard to say what motivates such people. After wards when I start observing different muslim, I noticed hundreds and thousands have such cut on their forehead.  

Therefore meaning of, 'Jab Hee Hans Thajee Eih Kaaneiaa Praeth Praeth Kar Bhaagee' when I forsake 'hans birti' divine intellect, my body become 'prat jivan di bhagi or grave yard where only ghost resides or ghost birti becomes part of my thought process as Kabir ji has rightly said, 'ਕਬੀਰ ਜਾ ਘਰ ਸਾਧ ਨ ਸੇਵੀਅਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਨਾਹਿ ॥ਤੇ ਘਰ ਮਰਹਟ ਸਾਰਖੇ ਭੂਤ ਬਸਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥੧੯੨॥ - those houses in which neither the divine wisdom nor God are served those houses are like cremation grounds, demons dwells within that body.  Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  1374.16. Thus it has got nothing to do with soul or death. Here 'bhaagi' is not run away but accountable birti.

Best regards
sahni


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## palaingtha (May 15, 2013)

Luckysingh said:


> Are we being serious about the above ??
> Were they dancing and eating fish ??:grinningsingh:



I believe I had said that the imps were jumping around the leaves on which 7 heaps of rice and a fish on it were placed. My friend didn't see it ( or it may not have been visible to him ). He went along the path along the rice and fish placed on a leaf and died the same night asking for fish and rice which the doctor advised not to be given. This is my personal experience and is not at mercy for anybody's acceptance. Believe it or boldly say I am lying. 
I had asked you if you can show me the God I will show you the imps. Both exist but one cannot say, 'Look, there is God or there is an imp" But is very much there and so the imps which I saw in 1945.
Will you show me God that is omnipresent!


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (May 15, 2013)

> He went along the path along the rice and fish placed on a leaf



Were those dried leaves on ground?

We assume that you are telling the truth. But you could have seen some animal which you imagined to be an imp! Imps are not scientifically documented.

Gurbani and Waheguru are pillars on which we live our life. Imps are based on rare sightings by certain individuals. The folklore has already given you a mental picture of how it would look like. You just need someone who fits 90% of it right?


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## palaingtha (May 15, 2013)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> Were those dried leaves on ground?
> 
> We assume that you are telling the truth. But you could have seen some animal which you imagined to be an imp! Imps are not scientifically documented.
> 
> Gurbani and Waheguru are pillars on which we live our life. Imps are based on rare sightings by certain individuals. The folklore has already given you a mental picture of how it would look like. You just need someone who fits 90% of it right?



It was not on dried leaves. Some thirty years ago langar was served in Delhi on dried adjoined leaves to the size of a thali. But in Burma in Gurdwaras we used  leaves the size of a thali but in its own shape( of a leaf ). Such big leaves are easily available and people use for displaying vegetables, or some food items for sale in their shops.
So they were not dried leaves but a single green leaf.
It was not my imagination. I saw some imps, I didn't count them, they were around  5 or 6. And they were all skeletons jumping around the leaf and with their hands on the rice and fish.
And what do you say about my friend asking for rice and fish to be fed to him,  was refused, and his eventual death the same night.
I was also a staunch unbeliever of such things but how can I deny when I experienced.
You know I was ahead of him and, when I saw these things I stopped in my tracks. He had said, " Kya Kuldip"? and crossed me and went ahead. I followed from the side track and joined him far away from those things.
I do nor imagine, I do not lie.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (May 15, 2013)

Could those be pygmy mummies?

http://www.cultureblues.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/mummy-pygmies.jpg


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## japjisahib04 (May 15, 2013)

Great scholar and sant of our time Sant Singh Maskin jee also used to claim spirits, bhoot in his katha. I am listing the following link. But before his death he apologized and said I was mislead by certain people.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurma...s-prets-demons-gurbani-must-7.html#post176493

When you said the bhoot had addressed you as 'kya kuldip'. Can I humbly ask you whether your full name Kuldip Singh Lamba?

best regards
sahni


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## ravneet_sb (May 16, 2013)

Sat Sri Akaal,

Death comes like diconnection of Wi Fi System, 


one gets disconnected from source, 

imagiantion and (vision) and breath (Sound) (Speech) goes.

sometimes its not disconnection but hang up of image.

It is difficult for one's mind to mindfully watch the real world, its only 10% conscious mind, and our five senses can get connected, many of times focus gets drifted to subconscious and unconscious mind, and one can not experience external world.

It retrieves previous visual images stored during some part of progression.

Without internal awareness, one says its bhoot, or primitive, or bhoot kaal.

And person having outer consciousness can witness through aura.

Understand TRUE NATURE 

One is out of bhoot, and preta, devta, chamatkar.

Any "Natural Event" for which mind is not aware is "SUPER NATURAL"

though no event is beyond "TRUE NATURE" lack of understanding makes it "SUPER NATURAL" 

Live with Guru's Bani

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## palaingtha (May 18, 2013)

Kanwaljit Singh said:


> Could those be pygmy mummies?
> 
> http://www.cultureblues.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/mummy-pygmies.jpg



There is no time for frivolous arguments. I prefer sincere replies and statements.
You want me to 'not believe' what I experienced and, tour your track of thinking. Forget it.


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## palaingtha (May 18, 2013)

ravneet_sb said:


> Sat Sri Akaal,
> 
> Death comes like diconnection of Wi Fi System,
> 
> ...



You are imagining things. The sermon is too long. Flimsy arguments will not help to tow your way of thinking. I am mature enough to understand what is right or what is wrong. How can I say what I experienced 'was never'.
What would you say that my friend of 1945 died the same night it happened. Is this also my imagination?


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## Harry Haller (May 18, 2013)

palaingtha said:


> There is no time for frivolous arguments. I prefer sincere replies and statements.
> You want me to 'not believe' what I experienced and, tour your track of thinking. Forget it.


 
I did not look at this link first time round, I would imagine you probably did not either, however, what it shows is imp like skeletons. 

I think it is time for Occams razor to be applied, among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

Sikhism is not a great fan of Babas and Sants, the groundwork needs to be done alone and with the support of sangat. To rely on third party interpretations is dangerous and in my view not worth the risk (bet your life on it?, no I would not)

There exists a completely logical explanation for the whole imp episode that has nothing to do with black magic or the supernatural, so Palaingthaji, you will please supply me with the relevant Bani in support of your imp episode, and we will discuss it. It must be your own interpretation please not someone elses that you have hijacked for your own end. 

I look forward to your reply


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## palaingtha (May 18, 2013)

japjisahib04 said:


> Great scholar and sant of our time Sant Singh Maskin jee also used to claim spirits, bhoot in his katha. I am listing the following link. But before his death he apologized and said I was mislead by certain people.
> 
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurma...s-prets-demons-gurbani-must-7.html#post176493
> 
> ...



It was my friend who said, "Kya Kuldip" when I stopped in my track when I saw the thing, and went past ahead of me along side the thing and I took the side track.
And a friend will not address me by my full name. I was just 14 then.
If you have nothing better to write don't write.


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## Harry Haller (May 18, 2013)

palaingtha said:


> It was my friend who said, "Kya Kuldip" when I stopped in my track when I saw the thing, and went past ahead of me along side the thing and I took the side track.
> And a friend will not address me by my full name. I was just 14 then.
> If you have nothing better to write don't write.


 
You seemed quite happy to be forthcoming with your name when promoting your book 
*A Glimpse into the History of The Sikhs by Kuldip Singh Lamba*

* http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/histo...ikh-history-japji-sahib-english-internet.html*

so why shy now? Why is it everytime anyone wishes to debate with you, which is why we are all here, to debate, you react defensively and by being rude? 

Please supply the Bani I have requested so that we may return to the debate in question, I have no interest in your padding out your post with personal attacks, please let us stick to the topic, the imps.


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## palaingtha (May 18, 2013)

harry haller said:


> You seemed quite happy to be forthcoming with your name when promoting your book
> *A Glimpse into the History of The Sikhs by Kuldip Singh Lamba*
> 
> * http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/histo...ikh-history-japji-sahib-english-internet.html*
> ...




You have a  deleted habit of commenting on unrelated personal matters. How are you concerned where I write my name and how does it trouble you to rouse you to comment unnecessarily. Get rid of this deleted so that we may discuss the real issue in hand.

Let me hear some sober words from you and then we will resume the discussion.

The Admn. is silent when you write unrelated words against me but when I reply to it the Admn. reacts immediately. Thus people like you are encouraged.

When admin reacts to you there is one and only one reason:  name-calling! This prohibited by our Terms of Service. We are not conducting our conversations in a crowded street where people are fighting for parking spots and yelling up and down the street to get the upper hand. Be warned jio!


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## ravneet_sb (May 18, 2013)

Sat Sri Akaal,

With the spread of scientific education, 

imps, babas, deras are reduced in urban areas, 

all have heard from someone about imps, bhoots etc

or they do not want to live with urban people, 

they hate spiritual, scientific people.

Guru's have travelled a lot and put many hidden tricks and truth's of NATURE

to realise as a common man through common sense, 

and not fooled without understanding of  "NATURE" 

palaingtha ji, 

Its not denial of your experience, but it can be some hidden nature.

Only a few percentage of TRUE NATURE one experiences in a life span

Rest all comes as 
"RAB DA BHANA" 
as a 
"NATURE's EVENT" 
beyond our expression

Death is the biggest fear which Human's have

and it's "NATURAL" not "SUPER NATURAL"

it's matter of belief, 

our senses cannot experience truth,

for eg 

story of king, who feels to have defeated MAYA,

on moon light his mind imagined a beautiful red carpet, never so nice to seen in palace

which in reality was a multiple spit of PAN

Our ears and vision sometimes keeps us in disguise.

It has THREE aspects (LIGHT (Visual Experience), Sound (Vocal Experience) and Matter (Physical Experience)

Two may keeps us in disillusion 

Bhoots are imaginary beings, any mind can imagine them, 

But still one's mind  should imagine good.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Harry Haller (May 18, 2013)

palaingtha said:


> You have a dirty habit of commenting on unrelated personal matters. How are you concerned where I write my name and how does it trouble you to rouse you to comment unnecessarily. Get rid of this nasty addiction so that we may discuss the real issue in hand.
> Let me hear some sober words from you and then we will resume the discussion.
> The Admn. is silent when you write unrelated words against me but when I reply to it the Admn. reacts immediately. Thus people like you are encouraged.


 
my words are sober enough, please supply what I have requested or concede the argument that imps do not exist. 

to Clarify, this thread is about the existence of Imps and what the SGGS has to say about it, I would be grateful if you could stick to the subject in hand rather than personal attacks on me.


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## japjisahib04 (May 18, 2013)

palaingtha said:


> It was my friend who said, "Kya Kuldip" when I stopped in my track when I saw the thing, and went past ahead of me along side the thing and I took the side track.
> And a friend will not address me by my full name. I was just 14 then.
> If you have nothing better to write don't write.



S. Palaingtha Jee

Believe me, I am not a bhoot, spirit or Imp, it was only my intuition after seeing the same writing style that I humbly wanted to enquire. It was not my intention to raise your blood pressure. However, I apologize for any discomfort.

best regards
sahni


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