# Ardas Over Food = Purification Like Halal?



## Randip Singh (Apr 5, 2009)

Hi People,

I had an interesting conversation a while ago in the Gurudwara at a Langaar where a devout Sikh friend I know said that when we have food before Langaar and do Ardas over it we are purifying it, just like Muslim's do Halal. I was taken a back and argued that we given thanks to God rather than purify, but thinking about it and the behaviour of our people maybe he was right? What do you think?


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## spnadmin (Apr 5, 2009)

Randip ji I have never heard of this before.    This  is like saying "Grace" in a Christian home -- thanksgiving for the blessing of food and remembrance (even simran) of the divine presence even when we partake.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 5, 2009)

Dear Randip Ji,

I read somewhere, I cannot put my finger on it and some times when I remember I recite;

ਜਿਹ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਛਤੀਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਉ ਰਖੁ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ 

_Jih parsāḏ cẖẖaṯīh amriṯ kẖāhi. Ŧis ṯẖākur ka▫o rakẖ man māhi._

By Akal Purkh’s Grace, you eat many delicacies; enshrine that Master God within your mind.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri Sukhmani # 5, AGGS, Page, 269-14

Cordially,

Virinder


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## pk70 (Apr 5, 2009)

*I feel it is not done to purify "langar food" but to offer thanks to the ultimate provider "The Creator", Gurbani supports it, as quote given by VSGREWAL Ji, ardas is to keep Him in mind.This is the way I look at it.*


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## spnadmin (Apr 5, 2009)

The gurdwara service in Espanola New Mexico at Ashram Guru Ram Das just ended -- an Internet transmission. I watched for the blessing of the food. It is exactly what we have concluded here -- gratitude and a remembrance of His blessings. There was no mention of purification as in Alah Akbar!! or anything like that. :welcome:


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## Randip Singh (Apr 5, 2009)

I know that what we do is for blessings, but it is the behaviour of our people, it is as if the food has been purified. That is what I am trying to get at.


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## spnadmin (Apr 5, 2009)

Randip ji

Well that is the same thinking that says that we should do seva to cleanse our karma. I don't myself know where it comes from.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 5, 2009)

Dear All,

Purification of the food by Ardas is spiritual ignorance IMHO. It is the gratitude which one has to offer for the food provided to Akal Purkh.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 5, 2009)

randip singh said:


> I know that what we do is for blessings, but it is the behaviour of our people, it is as if the food has been purified. That is what I am trying to get at.



Randip Ji..

I get what you are trying to say...like how some people rush to pick up little droplets of Karrah parshad they/or others have accidentally dropped on the floor..."holy food"...???and How they look at one who ignores the little pieces...."Doesnt he realise he is stepping on Holy Food" ?? types ??
Well these are the same types who drink the water that sangat wash their feet in...at the entrances of Gurdwaras...i also saw a few squeezing the rags used to clean the floors and drinking that "juice" In Rakab Ganj Gurdawra delhi among these were Obvious HINDUS and MUSLIMS....I talked to one or two..they said..Yes we come here daily and drink this..it is good for our business..brings us luck..and keeps us healthy..( thery are shopkeepers nearby )
At least the Karah parshad had ardass read and Kirpan Bhet....no such ardass was said over the  feet washing water/and  floor mopped "juice"...so I dont think its anything to do with ardass.
I beleive these are literal beleivers of..Saadh Sangat dee DHUR...dust of the feet of saints is "good for you"..etc etc. imho..all types make up thsi world...


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 5, 2009)

If Karrah Parshad drops on the floor and another person notices and picks it up and eats it, there is nothing wrong about it. This is Guru Sahibs offering to us. Treat it with utmost respect. For someone to drop Karrah Parshad on the floor and notices, but doesn't pick it up and eat it, they have just disrespected Guru Sahib.

Guru Sahib told the Brahmins you guys don't let others touch your food because it won't be pure, but you cook it on cow dung. Sikh are doing the same now, Karrah Prashad falls on the floor now all of a sudden its seen as dirty!


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 5, 2009)

Also some of these people that drop it on the floor and don't pick it up, came from india where food was cooked on cow dung. Where was everyone then to say the food is dirty.

Another thing there wasn't soap back then either, so who cooked to food and who brought the cow dung to cook the food on.  Most likely the same person.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 5, 2009)

Dear & respected Giani Ji,

Thanks for your point of view and describing the trust/faith (ਸ਼ਰਧਾ) of the individuals in the Gurudwara by picking up the pieces of dropped Krah Parsad. I was pointing out what I am teaching my family members to recite the gratitude as I read some where advised by Guru Gobind Singh to say the first hymn of fifth Astpadi of Sukhmani Sahib before eating any food described in my previous posting as;

ਜਿਹ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਛਤੀਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਉ ਰਖੁ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Jih parsāḏ cẖẖaṯīh amriṯ kẖāhi.Ŧis ṯẖākur ka▫o rakẖ man māhi. 

By His Grace, you partake of the thirty-six delicacies; enshrine that Lord and Master within your mind. 
 -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri Sukhmani AGGS, Page, 269-14

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 5, 2009)

Here's another interesting fact.  If you eat out at restaurants and fast food places, majority of the people don't wash there hands when they cook.  And if you look at India, its even a bigger problem.  But people have no problem here.  They look the other way and just eat.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 5, 2009)

Just for the record not lashing out at anyone, I just really feel strong about this when people contradict themselves.  Because they can see the Karrah Pashad dropped, but can't see the restaurant cook who doesn't wash his hand.  But treat both differently.  Or it could be that for one you paid money and for Karrah Prashad it was free.


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## spnadmin (Apr 5, 2009)

Let's move in this direction ...with the permission of Randip ji
_
I beleive these are literal beleivers of..Saadh Sangat dee DHUR...dust of the feet of saints is "good for you"..etc etc. imho..all types make up thsi world..._ (Gyani Jarnail Singh ji)


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## Hardip Singh (Apr 6, 2009)

Randip jee,
Let's be exact about what we mean from the HALAL. Is the food being blessed by the Lord or it has been purified by the prayers ? Two are entirely different concepts. Lord's blessings can not be equated with any sort of prifications.
Please clerify in the context of Gurbani.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 6, 2009)

Singh Ji,
No offense.
But I wont pick up and eat off the floor. GURU Ji showed us the Ultimate cleanliness rules..ishnaans and all, sarovars, baolis etc  to wash ...

Guru Ji GIFT..YES..but not when its been dropped...I wont go that far..maybe my loss..who knows..??
I wont pick up rice/pizza/roti daal milk kheer etc thats been spilled onto the floor either....even if its the Gurdwara langgar floor. If the sewadaar accidentally spills a karchha of kheer on to the floor in front of me instead of into my thali...he can clean it up later/i can clean it up..but i wont eat that. Of course i wont purposely drop/spill Guru ka Lnaggar/Karrah parshad.

Imho..Guru ji's RESPECT is in FOLLOWINMG HIS HUKMS..instructions..maryada..advice....reading/vicharing His Gurbani.... THIS RESPECT i go as far as i can to show to Guru Ji...

Chardeekalla Ji:yes:


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## Randip Singh (Apr 6, 2009)

Gyani ji and Verinder ji, that is exactly what I am trying to get at. People I think are forgetting why we do Ardas and its purpose and are thinking that it infuses magical qualities of purificatin to food like Halal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 6, 2009)

Halal/Haraam... on Food etc is a Muslim concept.
As far as Sikhi/Gurmatt/Gurbani is concerned...Guur nanak ji declares...
Haak PRAYA NANAKA...us  SOOR..us GAYEH.
To a Muslim..the PORK (soor) is Haram...
To a HINDU..its beef that is haram..
TO A SIKH..PRAYA HAAK....others' rights are Haraam. Only what you EARN YOURSELF honestly is YOURS. Period. What belongs to another..is NOT RIGHT for a SIKH under any circumstances.
You notice GURU NANAK JI went for the JUGULAR..the very BASIC ROOT of ALL CONFLICTS...Fights...WARS...  GRABBING OTHERS PROPERTIES..lusting after others wives..daughters..cars..lands..houses..countries..wealth..gold..whatever..and whatever...
While the Muslims and Hindus were merely scratching the surface with the pork/beef "???"
In Asa dee Vaar Guru Ji says openly...these FRAUDS..hold their noses in disgust at the mere sight of meat....and say we are vegetarians....we dont eat pork (muslims)..we dont eat beef (hindus)..BUT in the Darkness of NIGHT..these same people EAT and DEVOUR HUMANS..they KILL and MURDER under cover of darkness/anonymity...in the Dark they DEVOVOUR  HUMAN FLESH in the guise of visiting prostitutes...underaged girls fit enough to be their daughters...they plot to grab lands, properties, take over countries, stab neighbours..assasinate kings... THIS IS THE REAL STUFF !!! the real seed of all troubles....and ONLY KIRT..Honest Labour/santokh satsifaction with ones earnings can stem this.

Hallal goes far deeper than just FOOD. Muslims have hallal labels on things such as Soap..Bath oils..toothpaste..and a MILLION other things....this concept is only relevant to their religion...for example they cant use soap that has alcohol content...that woudl be Haraam..and soap sans alcohol/pork byproducts etc would be Hallal.

And "Hallal" Food products...fit for Muslims...is "pure" for Muslims ONLY. To a Non-Muslim..they couldnt care less. To a SIKH..such food is NOT PERMITTED because it was prepared as a SACRIFICE to Allah....with Kalma read over it. Sikhs are NOT permitted to eat any SACRIFICIAL food...even the one in a HINDU Mandir...offered as sacrifice to Devis/Ganesha etc. SGGS is NOT an IDOL..so cannot be offered sacrifical food..so no question of SIKHS doing that. The ARDASS is THANKSGIVING/GRACE to THANK GOD for his mercy/Grace...NOT to PLEASE HIM.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 6, 2009)

Singh Ji...
How can cow dung make food impure ??
Its just the FUEL....while the food is in the container...
and anyway the FIRE burns and cleans automatically.
Restaurants have dirty cooks..so have Gurdwaras...(sometimes)

I once REFUSED to take Parshad from a Singh Ji who had such dirty nails chock full of black dirt. Doesnt he have the DUTY to Himself and GURU JI..to NOT take sewa of distributing parshad IF he cannot clean his nails. Does the Parshad being blessed with Ardass done/Kirapn Bhet make it all right to distribute with dirty hands..still "holy". BTW Foods are never HOLY/UNHOLY.....Good Actions are stressed in Gurbani.:happy:


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 6, 2009)

Dear Giani Ji,

What is your position on distribution of Karhah Parsad with a spoon or wearing a plastic glove. I tried to persuade the distributer at one time but was a total failure due to the same reason. The educated Sikh being in USA for 50 years refused to do so and told me if so then I should do it. I could have in a normal situation but I cannot bend because of two back surgeries.
Since some Westerners come to Gurudwara as a guest or to know about the faith, I think it will be a good idea to do so as in the Dailies and Cafeterias gloves are used to distribute or sell  food.
Your thoughts, please as it would be more hygienic.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 6, 2009)

Guru Piayare Dr Sahib Jio,
Gurfateh.

I have no doubt at all....IF gloves had existed in Guru Jis time...they would have recommended them or at least have no objection to their use. After all we do use spoons and ladels in dishing out kheer/daal/rice/dahi etc...a clean spoon would be ideal.
But as you know..the Thekedaars in our Gurdwaras are very anti-changes/progress/innovations/departure from the rut...they would prefer to ruffle no feathers, offend no one..and carry on in the same rut.
Our Gurus stressed so much and heavily on Hygeine/cleanliness/safaii. They knew and were aware that diseases were not caused by "devis" or bhoot chhaiyas..but organisms. Thats is why they stressed on controlled food/diet/rest/games/physical exercise etc for a Helathy Body and a Healthy mind.

I see absolutley no spiritual benefit attached to serving Deg with Bare hands ONLY. Sikhism is a modern progressive religion  and we have no reasons to be backward in this area for any reason such as "prampara" (tradition). For this same reason I also dont support langgar on the FLOOR ONLY. As long as EQUALITY OF STATUS is observed...( same chairs/tables for ALL) Langgar can be served to those seated at tables/chairs as we do at home.

Thank you.


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## spnadmin (Apr 6, 2009)

Gyani ji

I agree in principle with you.  :hmm:  But the sevadhars are very clean, there is a lot of hand washing, the floors are is immaculate, no one has dirty feet. There are no smells. I am not even afraid to use the bathroom in bare feet. Food is served with spoons or tongs on disposable plates/cuts. 

And the human race has survived a long time in the midst of germs :yes:  We are a hardy species :yes: Maybe people worry too much about germs  This of course is not an excuse for ignoring really dirty situations where some regular educational  program on sanitation would be helpful :inca: Just me thinking out loud.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 6, 2009)

aad ji,
 Actually.....I am picking up the needle in the haystack. 99.9% of Sewadaars in Gurdwars are very careful about cleanliness/hygiene...and THATS why we have NEVER had any cases of Food poisonings in any Gurdwara Langgar ever ( Some may call this Guru Jis Kirpa...i have no problem with that either..) BUT here and there does coem along the odd one out..who is naturally careless...and carries this over to the Gurdwara...and no one wants to be the one to tell him/her. To be really and absolutely honest..I have just seen this one case in my 60 years...BUT we cansurely IMPROVE..and Give a better impression....after all we have new materials..shining stainless steel...etc to give our Gurdwara Kitchens that ultra modern look and same to the sewadaars.

Here I would like to place my appreciation of ALL sewadaars all over the world..who have donethe GURUS WORK well. These sewadaars are truly wonderful. THANK YOU for making the GURU NANAK JIS LANGGAR work 24/7..This Institution of the GURU is one of the most striking to non-Sikhs....and we couldnt have doen it do well without the hardworkign sewadaars... Keep it UP Jios...whoever,whenever..whereever..ALL OVER !! I Salute YOU all.:welcome::ice:


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 6, 2009)

One more reason i feel our oldies wouldnt wish to change is ...the person who distributes parshaad is a Sikh , he can be a of any class or creed. During those times there might have been customs based on caste criteria, the touch of the person became important to get ride of the caste pollution in the acccepting person's mind.

To give an example, I am fond of visiting tribes where ever i get a chance to. 3 years back I visited Jhabua district in Madhya Pradesh to meet the Bhil tribe. I stayed there for 4 days and observed their behaviour.When they meet they use to do a handshake with both hands. I was used to doing a Namaste and had thought that since it was a Hindi speaking state NAMASTE would look decent than my city style 'Hi Man !Whatsssup ! ' . To my surprise  the people with whom I got friendly and took me around stopped me from just folding hands and doing a namaste. They instructed me to shake hands like they do since the Bhils would feel bad !!! Touching was very important...of course that wasnt the same with womenfolk.


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## spnadmin (Apr 6, 2009)

rajhaksa ji

I am truly envious of your experience. May have to change my course of life.


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## Randip Singh (Apr 6, 2009)

Some really good points here:

1) Ardas = Thanks Halal = Purification and pre-requisite to becoming Muslim.

2) Purification and viewed by some as being Ardas and is not the same as cleanliness as is required by a Sikh.

3) This idea of ritual purity in Sikhism is man made and has nothing to do with Gurmat.

Any others I have missed?


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 6, 2009)

Aad ji you r welcome to India ...and certainly you will love interacting ....by the way I did visit Niranjanpur...i had spoken about earlier. It was awesome . Our Granthi ji although wasnt much clear about what I was looking for, he is a young chap but really very helpful. He introduced me to people there and found out they wernt Sikligars but they were Gujarati Sikhs ...!!!!!

Our Granthi ji tried to have a meeting with the Pradhaan ( a community chief ). How ever he was reluctant and just rushed away, It took me an hour to make them realize that I had no other intention beside meeting them. They questioned me a lot and after they were satisfied they asked me to sit with them. 

They are prosperous farmers and had come to Indore 3-4 generations back, they now speak the local Malwi language instead of Gujarati. Most of them are doing good . I asked them how they got into Sikhi to which they explained about their financial conditions at that time. Thier physical features indicated that they were probably of tribal origin short height and many with the forefront teeth out...

The  punjabi sIKHS as usual do not like them and make fun of their Malwi accent. At times it seems they are forced to speak punjabi. Parcharaks do not come to them as often.  

Well my visits will be mostly weekly now ... I shall try my best ....and shall try to also arrange lectures for them. It was really heart warming to meet them.


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 6, 2009)

Thanks Giani Ji, I needed your blessings-if an occasion arises will try to invoke your advice. At least now I have you agreeing with me. You are right about Thekedars of Sikh Faith.
Regards Always.
Virinder


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 6, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Singh Ji,
> No offense.
> But I wont pick up and eat off the floor. GURU Ji showed us the Ultimate cleanliness rules..ishnaans and all, sarovars, baolis etc to wash ...
> 
> ...


 
Gyan ji 

That is what im trying to make people aware of.  In a restaurant, when they get all dressed up and go to have a nice time, the cooks at the restaurant don't wash there hands, but people have no problem with this.  The cook can go to the bathroom and come out without washing his hands (the possiblity of this happening in the west is pretty high and in india might aswell promote it) and still people won't complain or even get up and leave, but enjoy the food and say mmmmmmmm this is really good, we gotta come here next time.

Its this double standard people have here that makes me laugh at them.  I'm for keeping food completely clean.  But before people start picking at the Gurdwara, look at what is happening at restaurants and fast food places where you eat at.

Langar or Karrah Parshad from Guru Sahib is a blessing and if some drops on the floor right infromt of you pick it up and eat it.  It's not to say the Karrah Prashad is pure now or its the dust of the feet of the sangat, but just a show of respect to Guru Sahib offering to us.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 6, 2009)

Singh said:


> That is what im trying to make people aware of. In a restaurant, when they get all dressed up and go to have a nice time, the cooks at the restaurant don't wash there hands, but people have no problem with this. The cook can go to the bathroom and come out without washing his hands (the possiblity of this happening in the west is pretty high and in india might aswell promote it) and still people won't complain or even get up and leave, but enjoy the food and say mmmmmmmm this is really good, we gotta come here next time.


Were tehre any studies done on this? I doubt it. There's noway one can know that. Its like saying the number of unreported rapes are rising! ??

If your trying to make people aware then it might not be a bad idea to present evidence. 




> Langar or Karrah Parshad from Guru Sahib is a blessing and if some drops on the floor right infromt of you pick it up and eat it. It's not to say the Karrah Prashad is pure now or its the dust of the feet of the sangat, but just a show of respect to Guru Sahib offering to us.


If you really wantto show repect , why don't you go around picking up oher people's parshad as well?
Food in general is a blessing. I agree with Jarnail Singh ji on this one. Its taught to us that its respect but when did eating dirt become respect?? 
Why not go around and pick up people's parshad bits and tissues and throw them in the garbage for respect?? Keeping the hall clean is respect, going overboard and eating off the floor is stupidity.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 6, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Singh Ji...
> How can cow dung make food impure ??


 
Gyani ji I am not saying cow dung is impure, because purely its cow dung

Cow dung is dirty as it came from a cows rectum.  It's the waste after the cow eats the green grass and the cow absorbs all the good stuff, but then leaves a big  dark green patch of **** on the grass.  Its a good soucre of nitrogen for farmers fields.



> Its just the FUEL....while the food is in the container...
> and anyway the FIRE burns and cleans automatically.


 
yeah the food is in the container, but the person who brought the cow dung with there bare hands and then started cooking the food did not use soap to wash there hands, as they didn't have soap back then.  Also people had servants that cooked the food so there is even a bigger possibility that the hands werent even washed at all after touching the cow dung.





> Restaurants have dirty cooks..so have Gurdwaras...(sometimes)


 
Yeah this is the case, but here's another interesting fact.  Railings in public buildings are one of the dirties things to touch.  But people still do it and go on with there day.  But when it comes to the Gurdwara for taking a little bit of Karrah Prashad off the floor that just fell, the nose is held high and the head nods left to right.



> I once REFUSED to take Parshad from a Singh Ji who had such dirty nails chock full of black dirt. Doesnt he have the DUTY to Himself and GURU JI..to NOT take sewa of distributing parshad IF he cannot clean his nails. Does the Parshad being blessed with Ardass done/Kirapn Bhet make it all right to distribute with dirty hands..still "holy". BTW Foods are never HOLY/UNHOLY.....Good Actions are stressed in Gurbani.:happy:


 
yes, its the sewadars who should make sure the nails are nicely clean and hands are washed.  But this brings us back to the restuarants and cow dung thing again.  I say its more of a psychological thing because in the Gurdwara case its seen and in the restaurant its not seen, same with railings, so its ignored.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 6, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Were tehre any studies done on this? I doubt it. There's noway one can know that. Its like saying the number of unreported rapes are rising! ??
> 
> If your trying to make people aware then it might not be a bad idea to present evidence.


 
You gotta get more out in the world bhagat singh. Plus a study done on a restaurant employees not washing hands will cause the business to lose business. No restaurant will allow it.

But here's a link to some stats. 
Hand Washing Statistics: People Don't Wash Hands - Minnesota Dept. of Health

To actually see all of this go down a person should real get a job at a restaurant. My mom worked at one and she noticed majority of the time the cooks never washed there hands. And this was a high end restaurant. Than I had couple of buddys who worked at fast food restaurants and they tell me the same thing majority of the people don't wash hands who handle the food.





> If you really wantto show repect , why don't you go around picking up oher people's parshad as well?


 
You have completely losed the whole meaning go back and read again.



> Food in general is a blessing. I agree with Jarnail Singh ji on this one. Its taught to us that its respect but when did eating dirt become respect??


 
Just because it fell on the carpet its dirt now. Read Gurbani sir. *Read Ang Sung 472, and 1195*.



> Why not go around and pick up people's parshad bits and tissues and throw them in the garbage for respect?? Keeping the hall clean is respect, going overboard and eating off the floor is stupidity.


 
Read Gurbani sir if you think its stupid, right now your thinking like a Brahmin. Read *Ang Sung 472, and 1195*


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## spnadmin (Apr 6, 2009)

I can't remember what we are supposed to be talking about...


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 6, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> I can't remember what we are supposed to be talking about...


I think its something to do with me being a Brahmin. 

Singh ji why can't you get on with an argument without introducing fallacies?  What do you want me to read on those pages?


> Just because it fell on the carpet its dirt now.


It doesn't take long for food to pick up mircoorganisms, some of which can be trouble.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 6, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> I think its something to do with me being a Brahmin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## spnadmin (Apr 6, 2009)

The topic of the thread concerns whether Ardas over food prepared for langar is equivalant to Halal of food for Muslims. We are drifting badly. aad002


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 6, 2009)

Singh Ji,
You wrote:
<<<<<<yeah the food is in the container, but the person who brought the cow dung with there bare hands and then *started cooking the food did not use soap to wash there hands, as they didn't have soap back then. Also people had servants that cooked the food so there is even a bigger possibility that the hands werent even washed at all after touching the cow dung.<<<<<<<<<<<<*

About what period are you referring to....because about 530 Years ago..GURU NANAK JI had SOAP...Deh *SABOON* leaheah uh thoyeh (JAJPJI). Guru Nanak ji was a Farmer..and He certainly used/handled Cow DUNG....and I will Never beleive He never used SOAP - SABOON to wash His Hands !! Guur Ji wouldnt be talking about SABOON if it wasnt that common a thing.....:ice::ice:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 6, 2009)

AAD ji...

I sympathise...the Wind doth blow..and we doth drift..here and there like straws in the wind....
but imho..there is    tiny link...."Hallal"...purity...cleanliness..dirt..hygiene...spirtual purity..physical purity...dirty minds...dirty stair-banisters..dirty lift buttons..dirty door handles...all are facts of daily life
some of us are practical..others scale heights of purity etc doing mental calisthenics....modern Jains..Modern Sikhs...it takes variety to make up the 6 billion humans...and thus you will get as many replies going off on a tangent frequently...There is a lesson to be learnt in each and every Message...just pull the plug when we are done:whisling::whisling::whisling::whisling:


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## spnadmin (Apr 6, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> AAD ji...
> 
> I sympathise...the Wind doth blow..and we doth drift..here and there like straws in the wind....
> but imho..there is    tiny link...."Hallal"...purity...cleanliness..dirt..hygiene...spirtual purity..physical purity...dirty minds...dirty stair-banisters..dirty lift buttons..dirty door handles...all are facts of daily life
> some of us are practical..others scale heights of purity etc doing mental calisthenics....modern Jains..Modern Sikhs...it takes variety to make up the 6 billion humans...and thus you will get as many replies going off on a tangent frequently...There is a lesson to be learnt in each and every Message...just pull the plug when we are done:whisling::whisling::whisling::whisling:



Will have to consider Randip ji's take on the discussion...


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 6, 2009)

Dear Tony Ji,

The answer to the above question is BIG NO. To know this one has to know how Halal meat is produced?

An animal or poultry has to be slaughtered in a ritual way known as *Zibah.* 

All the flowing blood (al- An`am 6:145) must be drained out of the carcass, as blood is forbidden.

Swine flesh is also forbidden, and it is repeated in few other places in the Qur`an.

Forbidden is an animal that has been killed by strangling or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall.

Neck of the animal is cut slowly with a sharp knife and juglar veins are bled as blood has to be drained our which is not permissable, while Kalma is being read.-----al-Maida 5:3 Quran & al- An`am 6:145

*Sabd Guru on Halal*​ 
It is the cruel procedure of procuring “Halal Meat”, which has been ridiculed and the act has been replaced by virtue, as referred in AGGS.

ਮਿਹਰ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਸਿਦਕੁ ਮੁਸਲਾ ਹਕੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥

_Mihar masīṯ siḏak muslā hak halāl kurāṇ._

Let mercy be your mosque, faith your prayer-mat, and honest living your Quran.-----Guru Nanak, Raag, Majh, AGGS, Page, 140-18

ਮਾਰਣ ਪਾਹਿ ਹਰਾਮ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਇ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

_Māraṇ pāhi harām meh ho¬ė halāl na jā¬ė._

By adding spices to forbidden foods, they are not made acceptable.

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਹਲਾਲ ਦੁਇ ਤੀਜਾ ਖੈਰ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥

_Pahilā sacẖ halāl ḏu¬ė ṯījā kẖair kẖuḏā¬ė._

Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 141-2 & 4

ਹੋਇ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਲਗੈ ਹਕਿ ਜਾਇ ॥

_Ho¬ė halāl lagai hak jā¬ė._

One who is slaughtered with the knife of Truth (Sharpened on the word and sheathed by good qualities, will be acceptable to Akal Purkh.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 956-3

ਹਕੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਬਖੋਰਹੁ ਖਾਣਾ ॥

_Hak halāl bakẖorahu kẖāṇā._

Let what is earned righteously be your blessed food.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1084-7

ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਤ ਲਾਗੀ ਕਹੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਕਿਆ ਕੀਆ ॥

_Joṯ sarūp anāhaṯ lāgī kaho halāl ki¬ā kī¬ā._ 

The light gets absorbed in the Immortal Divine Essence. What then have thou slaughtered according to the code? -----Bhagat Kabir, Raag Parbhati, AGGS, Page, 1350-7

ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੀ ਕੀਏ ਜੁਲਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਹਤਾ ਨਾਉ ਹਲਾਲੁ ॥

_Kabīr jorī kī¬ė julam hai kahṯā nā¬o halāl._

Kabir, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal-----Bhagat Kabir, Slokes, AGGS, Page, 1374-11

ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਅ ਜੁ ਮਾਰਹਿ ਜੋਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਕਹਤੇ ਹਹਿ ਜੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ॥

_Kabīr jī¬a jo māreh jor kar kahṯė heh jo halāl._

Kabir, they oppress living beings and kill them, and call it proper.-----Bhagat Kabir, Slokes, AGGS, Page, 1375-5


Cordially,
Virinder S. Grewal


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 6, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Singh Ji,
> You wrote:
> <<<<<<yeah the food is in the container, but the person who brought the cow dung with there bare hands and then *started cooking the food did not use soap to wash there hands, as they didn't have soap back then. Also people had servants that cooked the food so there is even a bigger possibility that the hands werent even washed at all after touching the cow dung.<<<<<<<<<<<<*
> 
> About what period are you referring to....because about 530 Years ago..GURU NANAK JI had SOAP...Deh *SABOON* leaheah uh thoyeh (JAJPJI). Guru Nanak ji was a Farmer..and He certainly used/handled Cow DUNG....and I will Never beleive He never used SOAP - SABOON to wash His Hands !! Guur Ji wouldnt be talking about SABOON if it wasnt that common a thing.....:ice::ice:


 
See if I had done my Japji Sahib in the morning I would have know that.  As that speaks about Guru Sahib. I was talking about regular folks in that time and even in the 1800 soap was not used as much as you think. Water itself was seen as way to clean the hands and it was good enough. Speaking about Punjab.

It's now some people Naukra jaada kar dai they forgot where they came from and ate their food without washing with soap. Stay clean and be aware of your food in ALL placeS.


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## spnadmin (Apr 6, 2009)

Virinder ji

Thank you -- but all I was trying to do is get people back to the thread topic. It isn't working. But everyone is in such a good mood that I won't be heavy handed unless another forum member tells me I am a hypocrite. (In this case I am being a hypocrite, it is true.)

On a related topic -- because of this thread I did some research on cow dung and urine within the Brahmin tradition (ancient and modern). Somewhere in the back of my mind I remembered that cow dung has been considered a purifying substance. Guru Nanak, in referring to spreading cow dung around the Brahmin's cooking area, was providing an historically correct account of a practice related to ritual purification.  Back to the Internet research -- I found an amazing article -- an eye opener -- relating the consumption of cow dung and urine to the Law of Manu. Both are believed to purify. If there is any interest, and with Randip's permission, I will post it.


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## spnadmin (Apr 6, 2009)

I think though that the original question was pretty much answered and so we are having a pleasant chat.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 7, 2009)

AAd Ji,
You are perfectly right that Cow Urine and Dung is considered "holy" ( as well as the Holy Cow).
It is also considered a Healthy Drink...recently it was hot news item..Bottled Cow-Cola being introduced in India as the latest craze. IN MALAYSIA there are Specialized Stores that carry this item..and i will tell you the stuff is comparatively 10 times more expensive than real Cola. I usually take my "foreign" visitors to such stores to show them. Naturally this is "imported"...maybe because Indian Cows are more holier...being from the Good old Mother Country !!. Did you also know that the Indian PM..Morarji Desai was an avid Human Urine Drinker...a warm glass of ones urine is a perfect get-upper..according to many Hindus. Btw MY hindu neighbour...consecrated his new mansion recently...two cows were brought in a parade by the Brahmin priests...and taken with fanfare through out the house...bedrooms, rooms, kitchens, every room..and every few steps the cow stood and dutifully ****ed/dunged on the floor and moved on..purifying as it went...every one followed her in a silent procession...until she was lowered into the swimming pool...but soemhow she didnt want to do her business in the water...so the Brahmin did ***** and she complied...and was pulled out..dried up with a brand new towel..and escorted out.
I think if the bottled stuff becoems popular..who knows..they may introduce Fresh Cow Urine Bars.....where there are rows of Holy Cows lined up..and customers can just pay up..and take the Fresh Urine gushing out frothy and all like the Germans do with Lager Beer...Verily india takes the Cake for being ????
I woudl be interested in your article from Mannu laws..but imho i will not be surprised much. If Randip Ji agrees put it up. (General knowledge)....BTW..how this Thread has wandered !!!


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 7, 2009)

Dear Tony Ji,

Please put up that article as would like to know about it.

Thanks.

Virinder


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## spnadmin (Apr 7, 2009)

Gyani ji

I will put it up with Randip's OK -- the article overlaps with what you reported. But it adds information from ancient practices and the Law of Manu. There is one thing at this point that may be interesting to add to your current message however. Gypsies if I am not mistaken also drink urine. What strikes me about that is that Gypsies are descendants of ancient pre-Aryan Indian who migrated, and still do migrate, back and forth into Europe. There is still scientific controversy as to where exactly they derive from.


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 7, 2009)

Cow Urine saves bees from vanishing.

YouTube - New Uses for Cow Urine

 New Uses for Cow Urine 
NCHOR:
Researchers in India are suggesting that cow urine can save bees from diseases. And experiments conducted so far are producing very promising results. Let's take a closer look...
STORY: Scientists in Uttarakhand, India use cow urine to help bees ward off microbial diseases, during the rearing process.
Researchers at the Govind Ballabh Pant University of Agriculture & Technology have explored the efficacy of cow urine and are using it extensively while breeding honeybees.
Ruchira Tiwari, a researcher at the university, has been involved in this field of research for three years now.
[Ruchira Tiwari, Researcher]:
"We have used cow urine and seen that within seven to eight days the breed becomes healthy. We have seen this through our research. The workers work as cleaners and the queen bee lays eggs. After the urine is sprayed on them, the workers start working more efficiently and then take out unhealthy larva from the eggshe... more


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 7, 2009)

Thanks Teji Ji,

No comments.

Cordially,

Virinder


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## Archived_member7 (Apr 7, 2009)

So we should soon have the best brands like McDowells, Chivas Regal, BLUE LABEL etc come up with 

McUrinowells, Cowas Urinal, Yellow Label, :happy:


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 7, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> The topic of the thread concerns whether Ardas over food prepared for langar is equivalant to Halal of food for Muslims. We are drifting badly. aad002


Why do we even do ardas over food?


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## spnadmin (Apr 7, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Why do we even do ardas over food?




Answer given in earliest comments/posts in the thread.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 7, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Answer given in earliest comments/posts in the thread.


I meant why do they read the whole ardaas on the food if they do so?
You don't have to read the ardas to thank God.

And then what prayers are offered during the slaughter of animal? Why?


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## spnadmin (Apr 7, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> I meant why do they read the whole ardaas on the food if they do so?
> You don't have to read the ardas to thank God.
> 
> And then what prayers are offered during the slaughter of animal? Why?



BhagatSingh ji

There are two times I am aware that ardaas is *given* in relation to food. And I could be wrong but ardaas is *given. Ardass is not* *done* on food --  as in the blessing of fish *is done* in the Mediterranean Sea off the coast of Sardinia once a year in the spring by local holy men. 

Ardaas is given as a prayer at home before the evening meal. Ardaas is given in gurdwara for the langar. Now I don't understand why you are struggling with this concept. Yes there are many ways to thank God. IT JUST SO HAPPENS THAT SIKHS GIVE ARDAAS!  If a Sikh wants to give or say a different kind of prayer, well,  there are no ardaas cops to stop him/her, no Sikh mullahs who will issue arrest warrants. At least there are not any Sikh ardaas cops as of yet or that I know of. That is just what *Sikhs *do because *we* are *Sikhs *who are keeping *Sikh* traditions. 

Why do Bantu tribesmen tattoo their bodies as part of initiation a men? Why do Orthodox Christians celebrate Easter one week later than Roman Catholics? Why do a Navaho woman's brothers prepare her body and bury her when she dies, rather than her sisters? Why do Tibetan monks use prayer wheels as an aid to meditation? They each have their own special explanations for why they have these traditions. They do it because they do it. 

Now what are you talking about when you say "prayers offered during the slaughter of an animal."  Again, Muslims and some Christian sects say prayers during the slaughter of an animal. Jews do not say prayers during the slaughter of an animal (according to a local rabinnical college where I checked on this). Do Sikhs say prayers during the slaughter of an animal?  If they do -- this is new one for me. Do Nihangs say prayers when they jatka a goat? Someone else will have to answer.
_
P/S Don't Sikhs who eat meat pick it up at the market? _


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 7, 2009)

Dear Tony Ji,

Few weeks ago there was vedio of a Nihang Singh shown slaughtering a goat in the Gurudwara and later taking the head in front of AGGS in a platter. You can expect these *** things from Bhang eating Sikhs against the Sikh tenets. I am not sure if this is what you want to say. It comes close to sect bashing virinder ji. The bhang aspects of Nihang practice have died down a lot in recent times, I think since the last two jathedars. Also the jatka of goats is part of the Nihang way of life.  aad0002
 
Cordially,

Virinder


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 7, 2009)

> Do Nihangs say prayers when they jatka a goat?


They say stuff with teh word God in it. So do muslims when "halaling" the animal.

What I mean is, we have to look at what each party is saying before we conclude taht x = y. 
If muslims are thanking God in there prayer ,then halal + prayer = food + ardas (in the context we are apeaking in).


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## spnadmin (Apr 7, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> They say stuff with teh word God in it. So do muslims when "halaling" the animal.
> 
> What I mean is, we have to look at what each party is saying before we conclude taht x = y.
> If muslims are thanking God in there prayer ,then halal + prayer = food + ardas (in the context we are apeaking in).



Bhagat ji

That is where then the error lies. Muslims are not *thanking* God when saying Allah Akbar during Halal slaughter of animals. They are remembering the sacrifice of Abraham during  Halal. They are also purifying the meat as a matter of how they slaughter the animal -- slow, draining all the blood out. The suffering is what purifies.

The Nihang slaughters a goat with one swipe. Quickly. That is in fact the implied meaning of jatkha -- it is a swift clean blow.


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 7, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> That is where then the error lies. Muslims are not *thanking* God when saying Allah Akbar during Halal slaughter of animals. They are remembering the sacrifice of Abraham during Halal. They are also purifying the meat as a matter of how they slaughter the animal -- slow, draining all the blood out. The suffering is what purifies.
> 
> The Nihang slaughters a goat with one swipe. Quickly. That is in fact the implied meaning of jatkha -- it is a swift clean blow.


yes Nihangs do that. but they say something.

Um Allah HU akbar means God is great, this is similar to what Nihangs say, right? but Muslims say more things. We need to find out what they are. Do they remember Abraham? I am gona doubt it till I find the exact translation.
They technically do "purify" the meat when they drain the blood. Their reasoning is that blood contains urea which is toxic. This thought is modern though. But I guess suffering = purification is what they believed before. 

Anyway, if what you say is true then no, halal + prayers does not = food + ardaas.
But its like what Singh ji is saying that you should be picking up the prashad even if it drops. Although he might do this out of respect, it is actually done because the parshad is enchanted. Similarly, my dad sprinkles water on me after he does paath because the water is enchanted. The ardaas and the paath before the ardas, enchanted the parshad. That's one reason. I doubt its because the parshad is purified... anyone wish to explain why people think it is purified??
of course, neither the parshad nor water is enchanted. They are plain water and parshad. 
But I dont buy the "respect" argument. Firstly, its dirty when you pick it up and eat it, infected with God knows what! And secondly, where do you think its going to end up after it goes through your system.
idont buy the "double standard" argument either. There are people who don't eat restaurant food at all, and still eat parshad off the floor.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 7, 2009)

The Animal killing is SACRIFICE.
Commonly done in all cultures. Even HINDUS sacrifice Goats to the Goddess KALIMATA. These are JHATKA - killed with ONE STROKE..but still "SACRIFICIAL MEAT"...and thus not allowed for Khalsa Consumption.
I have seen Nepali Hindus slaughter Goats as a sacrifice to their Goddess KaliMata while on a tour of Nepal about 20 years ago. I cant recall what festival it was..but it was a huge gathering over a few days.
Long ago..Incas and all..used to have HUMAN SACRIFICE too. This was to PLEASE their GODS..to provide rain..good crops etc etc.
The Hallal Tradition is descended from the Sacrifice of ABRAHAM - Father of the Jews/Muslims/Christians.
The Jews call it KOSHER....
BTW Abraham was supposed to offer his SON as Sacrifice to GOD...but then God decided that a SHEEP woudl be quite OK ( Incidentally Abraham had brought along a SHEEP also ) So the Sheep was slaughtered in GODS NAME and burnt as an OFFERING.
The Islamic Celebration of ID AL ADHA..Festival of Sacrifice is annually held in Remebrance of Abraham's sacrifice. Hundreds of thousands of Cows/goats/camels/sheep...and chickens are ritually slaughtered each year on this Day....its called DAY OF SACRIFICE.
Hallal kalma are NOT READ over FISH..sea Food (obviously as these are already DEAD ) and also over other FOODs..like daal atta roti sabzee pizza mcdonalds...cheece cakes !!! 
Thus this proves that LIVING ANIMAL is necessary...

Ardass and Grace of the christians is Similar...its READ during ALL MEALS...no distinction made between daal roti or chicken massalla. Thus this is THANKSGIVING...and NOT "SACRIFICE".:happy:


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## spnadmin (Apr 7, 2009)

Bhagat ji

The comment below tends to get mixed up.....




BhagatSingh said:


> yes Nihangs do that. but they say something.
> 
> *Nihangs are a sect and so why generalize from what Nihangs do to "Sikhs" as a group. *The logical fallacy of doing this is the undistributed middle described by
> Aristotle. You probably already know this and want to see if we are on our toes.
> ...



I don't want to have to close yet another thread because the conversation has gone nowhere. 

Could we return to the subject of ardaas, and halal, and whether they are the same thing-- unless everything that can be said has been said.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 7, 2009)

Another important thing. Our ARDASS is always the SAME. Its a STANDARD and the words cannot be changed/altered.
In a Gurdawra..its right at the END when the Creator is THANKED for the Deg and Langgar and it is announced that it is ATTUT (available to ALL and anybody and everybody irrespective of any distinctions...and no one will be turned away and may the food never run out.)
Thsese words are said at the conclusion of every ardass because the DEG is compulsory at each ocassion while langgar may be optional. THESE WORDS are NOT WRITTEN AS PART of the Official ARDASS and are added by the person leading the prayers...and may be changed as long as the general meaning remains the same.

2. The ARDASS is read at each and every ocassion..sad as well a s happy..wedding..as well a s funeral..NO SIKH Ocassion is complete without an ARDASS.

3. The KALMA are not like that. No one can change a single word....


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 7, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> The comment below tends to get mixed up.....
> I don't want to have to close yet another thread because the conversation has gone nowhere.
> Could we return to the subject of ardaas, and halal, and whether they are the same thing-- unless everything that can be said has been said.


Yes seems like everything has been said. Anything, whatever I will lsay now will be off topic.
And no I was not generalizing to Sikhs, when I said Nihangs I meant Nihangs not Sikhs in general. 
Anyway, good to see your on your toes. 

i would just to like to know why. 


> Similarly, my dad sprinkles water on me after he does paath because the water is enchanted. I think I know why.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 7, 2009)

Bhagt Singh Ji,

ASK him .
Water or other stuff CANNOT become enchanted by any means.....and i mean MEANS.
But I have also seen..water bottles in their tens placed under the SGGS during Akhand Paath...presumably to make the water "enchanted" !!! What LAZY people...they cant even spare the time to even listen much less do the paath themselves...but they want other's effort of reciting paath to make their water enchanted FOC. no bigger fools than these.
A person i know sprinkles such enchanted water....after chanting the name of his Radha Soami Guru on it. He sprinkled it on ME..as he was hoping for ME to AGREE to his proposal...boy..was he SURPRISED when the water didnt do a thing..I REJECTED his proposal out of hand...a friend told me he went into shock..muttering..Maharaj ji ne taan bhut strong mantar parrh ke panee ditta see..kee ho gayah ??
What a FOOL. If he had put his proposal logically..i may have accepted....:ice:


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 7, 2009)

Aad ji does that clear up the "??????" in my post. 
people think parshad gets enchanted because gurbani is read right next to it. And this results in them picking parshad off the floor.



> ASK him


I did, he said paath has so much shakti! Basically, the everyday "reasoning" of many Sikhs...
That's why mahapurakh kept water near them while meditatin so that it becomes enchanted.  ... And I thought they kept water near so that they didnt have to distrupt their meditation too much for a little drink of water.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 7, 2009)

<<<<<<<<<<<And I thought they kept water near so that they didnt have to disrupt their meditation too much for a little drink of water.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

You were wrong !!! During meditation..no thirst is felt !! anyway a "mahanpursh" worth anything would have chelas on the ready to do his slightest bidding....and most MP dont drink mere WATER...when they can have MILK...and ????

Shaktee comes from FOLLOWING GURBANI...not enchanted waters.:happy:


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 8, 2009)

Here's some interesting facts of water after certain music is read around it. View the slides

Water Crystals after listening to Folk Dance Music!


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## Randip Singh (Apr 8, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Yes seems like everything has been said. Anything, whatever I will lsay now will be off topic.
> And no I was not generalizing to Sikhs, when I said Nihangs I meant Nihangs not Sikhs in general.
> Anyway, good to see your on your toes.
> 
> i would just to like to know why.




Halaal as I understand it is a ritual purification. A sacrifice. A prerequisite to becoming Muslim. It also has connotation with Abraham and the sacrifice of the goat (rather than his son) to God on specific occasions (Eid). They are in effect saying to God we are purifying what you have created.

Ardaas Sikhi does not seek to purify anything. It accepts God's creations and gives thanks for them.

That is a MAJOR difference.

My contention is people are forgetting these differences.

Ardaas


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## Hardip Singh (Apr 8, 2009)

Giyani jee,
I am sorry for your interpertation of the same. Tell me, what we do during the Amrit sanchar. Is'nt we are transfering the holy powers/energy while chanting the five banis into that water in the Holy Bowl with the help of Khanda.
Randeep Singh jee is perfactly right in interpertaing the actual meaning of what is Halal and what is their in Ardass.
Let's not mix two things. These are entirely two different concepts. Thanks giving can not be equated with purification rituals. Hence, Halal and Ardass are entirely two different concepts.


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 8, 2009)

Ardass is an inner comtemplation of thanks, strength and focus of our endeavours of whatever lies ahead or and what has been accomplished so far. That is the beauty of Ardass. It can be done anytime,anywhere, alone, with people etc etc. And Ardass can contain any wording provided we stick to our innerself.

Whereas purification ceremonies require certain kinds of rituals in all religions that believe in it and those rituals have already been explained by many above.

Ardaas for langar is done in the Gurdwaras where lots of langar is served daily in the Langar halls.It is to thank for what was planned has been accomplished, in getting the materials and preparing it and asking for the focus and strength to serve it to all who are hungry.

Purification is a Brahamic,semitic,Jaini,Buddhist, Inca and other native American religions' idea. Fortunately not a Sikhi one.

For a Sikh the endeavour is to become pure hearted- hence, the true Khalsa.

Tejwant Singh


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 8, 2009)

Dear Teji Ji,

Finally you have hit the thread over the head with out bending, twisting, spinning or even being on the slippery slope. Please accept my heart felt gratitude. 

Cordially,

Virinder


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 8, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> <<<<<<<<<<<And I thought they kept water near so that they didnt have to disrupt their meditation too much for a little drink of water.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> 
> You were wrong !!! During meditation..no thirst is felt !! anyway a "mahanpursh" worth anything would have chelas on the ready to do his slightest bidding....and most MP dont drink mere WATER...when they can have MILK...and ????
> 
> Shaktee comes from FOLLOWING GURBANI...not enchanted waters.:happy:


So why do they keep water near them? You have not answered that...


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## BhagatSingh (Apr 8, 2009)

Aad ji



> Thank you -- the animal suffers - and shock and pain actually introduce high levels of enzymes into the meat which some consider harmful to humans. But that is also a digression.


Introducing high levels of enzymes into the meat? When I first read this it made sense but I thought about it again, and many questions came up.
Where are these enzymes being released? Where are they going after being released? Enzymes don't just magically appear out of nowhere, they are probably stored in the cells which end up being eaten anyways, I can understand that they might be inactive... So my question now is what do these enzymes do and why are they being released? 
This could be  major argument against halal and kosher meat if these enzymes are dangerous.
I mean you can call purification useless but really its not harmful. Its not needed but if we have people doing it, then its OK. But this enzyme thing you've mentioned could turn the tables.
You have made me curious to find out since Biology is one of my fav subjects.


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## spnadmin (Apr 8, 2009)

Bhagat ji

Not all enzymes are dangerous. Just this particular type. I think they are released by the liver as a consequence of the shock but as I said I have to look it up and can't do that right now.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 8, 2009)

Hardip Singh Vohra said:


> Giyani jee,
> I am sorry for your interpertation of the same. Tell me, what we do during the Amrit sanchar. Is'nt we are transfering the holy powers/energy while chanting the five banis into that water in the Holy Bowl with the help of Khanda.
> 
> Hardeep singh j,
> gurfateh.



Good that you brought this up. Please dont be offended but bear with me.

The Khnandeh batte Dee PAHUL ( Peevoh PAHUL KHANDE_DHAAR hoveh janam suhela )
is a very very special UNIQUE INITIATION CEREMONY, carried out by SIX carefully chosen PYARAS, in the TABIAH of the SGGS. The purpose of this ceremony is to INITIATE SIKHS into KHALSA SINGHS. The Ceremony entails acceptance of the REHIT proscribed, janam nash, KUL nash  Dharam Nash..etc etc etc and DISCIPLINE.
This is called the *PAHUL* ceremony and there is a reason..now everyone is calling it the "Amrit Sanskaar Ceremony"...acceptable..,,,,,,BUT then so many other :Amritis" have also cropped up.....

Are you saying that the VERY SAME thing ( as the Pyaras do in Pahul Ceremony) happens to each bottle of water placed NEARBY a person doing Paath? That its the EXACT SAME "AMRIT".
Did you know that the Saadh of Pehova had such "Bottled Amrit" shipped overseas and the snagats were instructed to POUR ONE BOTTLE into the WELL/WATER TANK...and then contineu to DRINK "AMRIT" forever..endless supply !! Such Amrii can be prepared by just about ANYONE....and since its EXACTLY the same...the Panj Pyara ceremony can be dispensed with ??
Lots of people just FILL BOTTLES from the SAROVARS of Gurdwaras..especially Historical ones...this is also called"Amrit"
To downgrade further...i have seen "holy mahapursh" just mumbling some gurbani..and producing instant Amrit as well...

We are on a  very very slippery slope here....and the deeper we descend...harder we fall...what say you of "water" in the Underground Municipilaty pipe supply"..flowing pass the SGGS inside the WALLS/Underground during Akhand paaths ?? The Place where I have my personal SGGS parkashed in my home has the common water pipe just inches away from SGGS..and paath goes on uninterrupted for at least 6-9 hours in my home...so how much "Amrut" am i producing hourly ?? and for whom >> my neighbours ??

GURU JI didnt intend for this interpretation. we have taken our own road. Otherwise Guru ji wouldnt have set up the SPECIAL PAHUL CEREMONY.

IF there is any intention to take this further we can set up a different thread. I also agree with randip Singh on the ardass hallal issue. Thanks so much.


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## Hardip Singh (Apr 9, 2009)

Respected Giyani jee,
I fully accept your interpertation of the Amrit. Thanks for the same. Pl advice me on one more happenings; why we have a chula of water from the sarover at Harimandir sahib (at Har ki Pauri). Is it the blessed water only or due to continueous recitation of the scarced gurbani from the Harimandir sahib it gets purified to that level of AMRIT. Same act is followed by thousands at Gurdwara Bangla Sahib's chabucha in Delhi. What's the truth. Do advice.
Guru fateh.


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## pk70 (Apr 9, 2009)

* SN Sangat ji if you allow me I feel  that Amrit ceremony is called Amrit because it is pious ceremony as we revere pious Gurbani as Amrit Bani. This ceremony is pious because it is a commitment to Guru just as sacred oath is taken. Recitation of five  banis is to remind instructions of the Guru expressed in the bani, those banis should affect the ones who recite and hear them, sweet water contains no miracle, it’s the miracle within his followers that Guru intended to revive for Dharma. All the stories about amrit pani,  amrit srover pani  are production of manmatt for petty influences.  Thanks.*


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## Randip Singh (Apr 10, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Purification is a Brahamic,semitic,Jaini,Buddhist, Inca and other native American religions' idea. Fortunately not a Sikhi one.
> 
> 
> Tejwant Singh



Tejwant ji,

I strongly believe that our Guru's were aware of the futility of ritual purification, or and ritual sacrifice (which I think can be lumped in this). The Guru's saw this as a form of appeasement. In Muslims they have the concept of Halaal - which not only applies to meat, but like Gyani ji has said, everything from toothpaste to ********s. Amongst Jews we have the concept of Kosher (exactly the same as Halaal), and is described not only animal sacrifice, but every aspect of Jewish life eg "Is that car knocked off, no its Kosher!". Amongst Hindu's too we have concepts such as Bali's ritual sacricie for rites of purification and God appeasement. We even have concepts such as Anustrani where an animal would be sacrificed/ and burnt on the funeral pyre of the deceased as a form of appeasement to ancestors. 

I may be wrong but I think the Guru's are saying that God's creation is perfect. There is no need for you to purify it (through ritual), or use it to appease him/her (through sacrifice).

The Sikh view is, just give thanks to what you have from God?

Any views?


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## Randip Singh (Apr 10, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> Aad ji
> 
> Introducing high levels of enzymes into the meat? When I first read this it made sense but I thought about it again, and many questions came up.
> Where are these enzymes being released? Where are they going after being released? Enzymes don't just magically appear out of nowhere, they are probably stored in the cells which end up being eaten anyways, I can understand that they might be inactive... So my question now is what do these enzymes do and why are they being released?
> ...



with all due respect, this topic is not about meat but really about purifiction and how we as Sikhs are falling into that trap.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 10, 2009)

Guru Piayare Hardip Singh Ji,
gurfateh Ji.

My answer has been given most aptly by PK70 Ji above. The GURBANI is the "AMRIT"...and the READER can get it through READING/VICHAAR/FOLLOW its teachings. NO OTHER WAY.

NO body else can do it FOR YOU...no automatic.... instant...bottled..chula types ready made "amrit".
Just because hundreds of thousands...maybe millions... do it..doesnt make it right.
The whole world is into such "acts"..

I have seen the Hindus braek coconuts before their diety. I asked one pujaree..whats the reason...Oh he said..the Coconut represents our MIND...manmatt ridden. When we break the coconut...the water spills out...and the clean white flesh is revealed.... The water spilling out is the manmatt/our filthy thoughts etc..and the clean white flesh revelaed is our NEW MIND..now purified..and clean...just as God intended. Millions of coconuts get broken..BUT what can abroken coconut do to the GUILTY MIND ?? NOTHING. It is just an ILLUSION...to pacify the outer mind..that breaking the coconut purifies the mind within...GURBANI says one has to do teh EFFORT to PURIFY the MIND..through VIGOROUS ACTIONS...not simply breaking a coconut !!! The "SYMBOLISM" is there..the logic is there...BUT the people have taken the easy way out...controlling the MIND full of lust/lobh hankaar etc is difficult..buy a coconut and break it...its so easy..even a child can break a few hundred...the richer and more filthy minded..the more coconuts he can afford to PAY to break !!

To Fly to Amrtisar..say from malaysia..costs about USD 700 one time. How many poor Malaysians can afford to go visit Har Ki paurree to drink the "amrit".?? The Filthy rich..the cheats..the smugglers..can afford to go DAILY even..and the "politicians" in charge of har Ki paurree ( can through payment) make it even easier..the "amrii" can be sent by parcel post..EXACT same logic as breaking coconuts to clean the MIND !! The More people buy the cocnut theory..the more money go to the coconut merchants...similarly more people come to drink the amrit...the more GOLUCK..and spin offs come to the Merchants in Amritsar !!! Who really wants to READ...VICHAAR..GURBANi and FOLLOW..the oh so difficult REALLY HARD WORK.!!! Gurbani says..about controlling kaam, lobh, hankaar..love the enemy..dont grab others haak...dotn lie..dont cheat..... 

A really pious person..who has really read/vichar/followed Gurbani as it really says in his daily life...may be so overcome with emotion...Gurus Pyaar...the Har Ki pauree may really look like Gods Duaar...and the water there may be really amrit...imho that person has the power inside him to make any water amrit...but all the rest..pushing and shoving like uncouth bunch ( I have been there many times....seen so many absolutley rude people pushing and shoving like crazy ) are just into the instant amrit types....btw i have seen many really pious souls....the really fantastic ones...and these were so difficult to find..as diamonds in a heap of stones...BUT THEY ARE THERE AS WELL..not visible..but there never the less. These have the real amrit INSIDE them through GURBANI.

Just a fact not known to many..the WATER in the Harmandar sarovar is continously FLOWING and FILTERED by a ultra modern filtration system costing millions of rupees. The water is brought form a nearby canal through underground hansali covered canal. Its not been there continously "listening" to gurbani....say a decade or something like that...many may think the sarovar water has been purified by gurbani kirtan over hudnreds of years..its just as new as the visitors thronging through...continous flow !! Can anyone be reconciled with the concept of "FILTERED AMRIT" ?? why filter something so powerful  and holy ?? Logical answer ?? Much better to let the UNFILTERED GURBANI KIRTAN sink in and wash our Mann !!! Vichaar gurbani..Follow gurbani...LIVE GURBANI....and enjoy the REAL AMRIT that trickles down ones THROAT from Dasam Duaar. No offense meant or taken to anyoens feelings. all are perfectly welcome to follow their own hearts.:welcome::yes::yes::idea:


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 10, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Tejwant ji,
> 
> I strongly believe that our Guru's were aware of the futility of ritual purification, or and ritual sacrifice (which I think can be lumped in this). The Guru's saw this as a form of appeasement. In Muslims they have the concept of Halaal - which not only applies to meat, but like Gyani ji has said, everything from toothpaste to ********s. Amongst Jews we have the concept of Kosher (exactly the same as Halaal), and is described not only animal sacrifice, but every aspect of Jewish life eg "Is that car knocked off, no its Kosher!". Amongst Hindu's too we have concepts such as Bali's ritual sacricie for rites of purification and God appeasement. We even have concepts such as Anustrani where an animal would be sacrificed/ and burnt on the funeral pyre of the deceased as a form of appeasement to ancestors.
> 
> ...


 
Randip ji,

Guru Fateh.

You have excatly expressed my views what I did in my post in a more elaborate fashion. It also shows us the difference between the dogmatic religions and their needs to create useless rituals as some snakeoil rub and which also became great sales pitches to lasso the ingnorant, and the pragmatic way of life called Sikhi envisioned by our Gurus. It was not only envisioned but all the tools were created by them and bestowed to us through sggs so we could savour this life of Miri- Piri.

What a wonderful world!

Thanks.

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 10, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> So why do they keep water near them? You have not answered that...



I honestly have no idea ji..
as for myself..i have  a bottle of mineral water enarby..to quench my thirst once in a while doing path


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## seeker3k (Apr 19, 2009)

pk70 said:


> *I feel it is not done to purify "langar food" but to offer thanks to the ultimate provider "The Creator", Gurbani supports it, as quote given by VSGREWAL Ji, ardas is to keep Him in mind.This is the way I look at it.*


 

Dear PK,
No matter how we justify, it is to purify the food. We have been brain washed that if we do ardas is for our good. We are told that god is living person that will touch the food we offer. Why do we mix the so called parsad with the rest of the food before we serve it to sangat. Let me tell you how my thinking was changed.
In 1977 I went to India to find God(as if god is only in India).There I was  in contact with spiritual group who convinced to do ardas. I was asked to say: at the food the food that you gave me I am going to eat with your permission. They claim by saying this there will be no karam is created, because I am eating with god’s permission. I got convinced and started doing it. One day I went to see my Uncle, in his village. In the rasoi the girl was making roti and was serving me and my uncle. Before I started to eat, the girl saw me and said bhaji is doing ardas. My uncle asked me what I am doing. I told him the reason. My uncle said it is very good idea but how long it take to say this in the mind? I said about one second. He said why the ritual then. That made me realize where I was stuck. 
We do not use logic as to what we are doing; we just do it because some told us that it is good for us.
 seeker3k@gmail.com


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## seeker3k (Apr 20, 2009)

We are trying to copy what the Hindus are doing. They put food by the idols. After the ardas they give it as parsad. We put the fod by the SGGS (book) and at the end of the reading we take the food and mix with the food and serve it to sangat.
If the Hindus ritual is not right then how can our be right.
seeker3k@gmail.com


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## vsgrewal48895 (Apr 20, 2009)

Dear All,

You are talking about food just look at this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gWDcBddddU&feature=related[/FON"]YouTube - aarti patna sahib ji


Cordially,

Virinder


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## spnadmin (Apr 20, 2009)

Because it is not the same thing. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is not an idol.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 20, 2009)

seeker3k said:


> We are trying to copy what the Hindus are doing. They put food by the idols. After the ardas they give it as parsad. We put the fod by the SGGS (book) and at the end of the reading we take the food and mix with the food and serve it to sangat.
> If the Hindus ritual is not right then how can our be right.
> seeker3k@gmail.com



NO JI. absolutely wrong.

1. The SGGS is not an "IDOL". Period. IDOLS are "REPRESENTATIONS" with absolutely NO VALUE except as representations. The SGGS is a "TREASURE HOUSE OF GURBANI"..teachings of the Gurus available for all who want to LEARN. KHOJ SHABAD MEH LEH is as clear as can be. What can one "KHOJ" in a stone idol ?? Turn it any way..there is nothing except stone/metal.

2. The Karrah Parsad is Kirpan Bhet, the 5 portions taken out are meant in REMEMBRANCE of the Supreme sacriifice of the PANJ PIYARAS in 1699 when they cane forward to offer their HEADS. The Five Portions are meant to be DISTRIBUTED among the Sangat.
Some under influence of "misguidance"...look around in the sangat and JUDGE that NO ONE IS AS PERFECT as the ORIGINAL PANJ PIYARAS..so they take the EASY WAY OUT by MIXING the five portions into the rest of the Degh. THIS IS WRONG and NOT as per SRM. The NEAREST FIVE PERSONS..clean shaven/women/child/whatever should be given the panj piayara portion.Period. NO DISCRIMINATION. NO JUDGING.

3. ONLY the GHEE/SUGAR/ATTA FLOUR/WATER prepared Karah parsad is PARSAAD...no other FOOD can be DEGH. Unlike Hindu mandirs where coconuts,,bananas..ladoos, chholeh jalebis etc is PARSAAD. Those sikhs who treat other foods "as parsad" are also WRONG. SRM only SANCTIONS the *DEGH* for distribution in Gurdwara...because KIRPAN BHET is compulsory for ALL "DEGH".

4 The ARDASS is not performed to make the DEGH 'HOLY"...or for the SGGS. Its a THANKSGIVING ARDASS..shukrana to AKAL PURAKH for providing it...and may such bounties flow uninterrupted from HIM to his sewaks.

Due to the Heavy influence of Hinduism in Sikhs, many brahminical practises which are MALPRACTISES as per SRM/Gurbani/Gurmatt are creeping into Sikhism. We must use our senses and reject all such. One such is the JHOOTH of a sant/baba/holy man which is considered "holy" Sikhism has nO such practise. no ones jhooth should be taken. Many Sant babas and Dehdharee GURUDOMS are gettign so bold as to SPIT into food to eb served to their followers as "HOLY SPIT"  what utter RUBBISH.SEET parsaad ?? NO.:advocate:


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## seeker3k (Apr 22, 2009)

For you it is not Idol but when it is analyzed it is Idol. An Idol is: not alive don’t talk don’t move don’t eat and do other things that alive things do. Can you show us that your SGGS is doing all the these things? If not then it is Idol. You say that it is treasure, it is treasure of poetry. I give that this poetry is good to guide one in life but still it is poetry in which is in the book Books don’t talk. One have to learn that language to understand. It is not good for any one who cant read that language. Further more one have know other language to understand the message. The living guru is one who can explain in plane language. Every one make claim that he is the only one who can really understand the bani.No one is interested in knowing what the bani says. They just want to sing it.
It is also a treasure house in other way. People put money in the golak. That is the real reason that it is worshiped.
What is written in the SGGS it has been written before by others. There is nothing new in it.
When we go to school to learn. There are given books on each subject and also there was a teacher for each subject. If there is no need for the live teacher as we claim then there is no need for the living guru. Then there should be no schools. Doctor learn from books and I have seen no doctor worshiping the books he learned from. Why are we worshiping the SGGS. The whole idea is about the soul and god? We are making big thing about the rituals. I know it make person feel good when he worship. It is not about feeling good. It is to understand one self and do no harm to others. 
There is reason and logic in the world that can make you understand what is real. So good luck


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## seeker3k (Apr 22, 2009)

Thanks. It is very good writing. I will reply shortly.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 23, 2009)

seeker3k said:


> For you it is not Idol but when it is analyzed it is Idol. An Idol is: not alive don’t talk don’t move don’t eat and do other things that alive things do. Can you show us that your SGGS is doing all the these things? If not then it is Idol. You say that it is treasure, it is treasure of poetry. I give that this poetry is good to guide one in life but still it is poetry in which is in the book Books don’t talk. One have to learn that language to understand. It is not good for any one who cant read that language. Further more one have know other language to understand the message. The living guru is one who can explain in plane language. Every one make claim that he is the only one who can really understand the bani.No one is interested in knowing what the bani says. They just want to sing it.
> It is also a treasure house in other way. People put money in the golak. That is the real reason that it is worshiped.
> What is written in the SGGS it has been written before by others. There is nothing new in it.
> When we go to school to learn. There are given books on each subject and also there was a teacher for each subject. If there is no need for the live teacher as we claim then there is no need for the living guru. Then there should be no schools. Doctor learn from books and I have seen no doctor worshiping the books he learned from. Why are we worshiping the SGGS. The whole idea is about the soul and god? We are making big thing about the rituals. I know it make person feel good when he worship. It is not about feeling good. It is to understand one self and do no harm to others.
> There is reason and logic in the world that can make you understand what is real. So good luck



Dear seeker3 Ji,

You said that one has to Learn the language of the SGGS to understand.ABSOLUTELY .right Ji...BUT the same applies to a Living Guru...it cant be that a "Living Guru" SPEAKS each and every language ? Surely his FOLLOWERS have to be conversant with the ONE/two..maybe three/// language that HE speaks ?? Just How many Languages does the average Living Guru speak well ?? You see we become quite blinded by our own living guru...it happens...I know the Radhasoami Guru. He is a Typical Living Guru..so I will confine my thoughts to him only....He speaks good English as he is a trained Engineer and was staying in Australia clean shaven and all before he got the gadee and grew a long beard and put a dastaar on his head....he may speak hindi/punajbi.....but thats about it..cna he communicate in Ukrainian..French..Chinese..F{censored}e..Arabic..etc etc ??

You say SGGS is "just poetry"....I say the "living Guru" is JUST WORDS....what else he got. The SGGS has Centuries of Persoanl Experiences of Godly men and Bhagats to communicate their Message of Divine LOVE to us...the "living Guru" has just his own limited ones...in simple WORDS only. The "LG" also solicits MONEY and properties and lands..of his followers...not in an open way a s in "Goluck"..but behind the back ways that enrich them even more.

IDOLS have no langauge and need no language. because they got nothing to communicate. The SGGS has so much to Communicate.

Yes a Doctor wont "worship" his books..BUT he does REFER to them..and he does keep himslef "EDUCATED" and up to date through OTHER BOOKS of simialr nature....no doctor stops after graduation !! Same for all other worldly education..BUT then the SGGS is NOT about Worldly education..its BRAHAM BICHAAR....of the Creator...

Btw there is such a thing as Open learning....Distance Learning...very little use for "living teachers"..people learn and graduate through their computers...to be fair to "living Guru" adherents..many such "living Gurus" also maintain WEBSITES and do INTERNET PARCHAAR for a wider audience and more money. WHY they DONT close down these sites and just be "LIVING GURU" in PERSON...less money and less followers !!!! Reality does bite...

Thank you and keep in chardeekalla jio...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 23, 2009)

and best of all..my "living Guru..the SGGS" is available 24/7....365 days any time day or night any place..for as much time as i like...whenever i feel the need..He is there to comfort me..guide me..love me through hsi beautiful poetry of Divine Love...NO LIMITATIONS of any kind..dont have to "feed Him"..bathe him...pay him...he never gets angry..annoyed..at being woken up at 3 am if i like it...i dont have to wait for him...I ASK,,and He answers...soemthing an idol cannot do..ever.

ALL those things can NEVER happen with a 
living human Guru"....so i will Never ever have any other except my very own..SGGS. SGGS serves my every NEED...so well that i cant ask for anything more...:whisling::whisling::whisling::whisling:


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## Hardip Singh (Apr 23, 2009)

Dear Seeker3 jee, 
I am sorry to say here you are wrong. One will be able to interpret any thing only upto the levels one has achieved in one's life. Any so called living Guru's discourse will be limited to his knowledge levels only. Whereas, the BANI in the Guru Granth Sahib jee is directly from the God. It is 'Dhur ki Bani' means Gods own words. Further, Guru sahib has clarified that 'Karta aap muhon kadaye' meaning the God is himself sending out these words thro my mouth. The meanings are self-explaintory; only you have to know the correct language. Idols never speak or send their Holy teachings thro some one . Only the Ultimate LORD (Akalpurakh jee) can do such an act thro some Holy Soul.

Further, The Supreme Court of India in the year 2006 in one of their landmarked judgements had confirmed that Shri Guru Granth sahib jee is 'A Living Guru' and hence any property in India can be registered in the name of SGGS jee. They had further added to the said judgement that other Holy Books like Gita, Ramayan, Kuran or Bible etc. are only Holy books of their respective faiths and are NOT their living Guru and hence, not intitled for any such deeds.

Moreover, you can have more guidence from a famous book written by Bhai Randhir Singh jee , titled 'Ki Guru Granth sahib de puja boot prasti hai'. 
Thanks & regards.


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## seeker3k (Apr 23, 2009)

Here we are talking about soul not the body.So when Indian gov declair that Sikhs are terrorist then you have problem. In this case you approved their ruling. Becouse it suit you. You admit that you are not holy soul that can get the bani from akal purkh. How can you know that it is from akal purkh. This akal purk can not speak by him/her self? Every one can claim that akal purkh is talking to him/her. There are other kind of people in India that the bhoot posess them the bhoot speak through them. Don’t tell me that akal pukh is bhoot. Would you believe me if I tell you that I am from another planet. I am here to see if people here are doing as I told them to do? I am sure you will not. Why do you belive what is written in the book as poems. I can say that poems are good have good message, that’s all. So are the other holly books beside kuran.
All relious people claim that their holy books are the word of god. Christain claim that Jesus is the only son of God, but you don’t believe them. Becouse you are using logic and dot take their word for it. So why do want me and other Sikhs to believe you that it is living guru. There is no living thing about this book. The massage in the SGGS is to naam simran. And do no harm to any life.No where in the book it say to worship the book.Guru Nanak condemn all what we are doing now in his name. If you have problem understanding then I suggest that you should get help from some one who can explain it to you.
Looks to me you have no experience Unbhab of your own. You just want to believe in the ritual. Do you really think that by doing the rituals you can please God? Can God be pleased or anger? By worshiping book as god you are lowering god to your level.
Do the naam simran then you will get some unbhab. Youwill see then what it is.Not just reading the book.
I am sure you have read books in school and learned trade, yet you don’t worship those books. Is that what Nanak wanted us to do? Where is Nanak’s writings that tells us that we should worship his writing.
When murder case go to judge. The judge has to listen all the evidence from a natural point. He is not bias if he is then it will  not be justice. You are sikh because you were born in it. How many other religion have you studied before you became sikh? How do you know it is the best of the rest? There maybe ( I maybe wrong ) only about 5% amartdhari Sikhs in the world. Yet 95% are normal Sikhs. Are all these Sikhs going to hell because they are not amratdhari? What about the rest of the world population of the world? It is all about the soul. Think what you are believing. The very same thing I am saying now was said by Nanak. Then the people stoned him called him kuria. People like you are going to be here for ever.


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## Archived_Member4 (Apr 23, 2009)

seeker3k said:


> Here we are talking about soul not the body.So when Indian gov declair that Sikhs are terrorist then you have problem. In this case you approved their ruling. Becouse it suit you. You admit that you are not holy soul that can get the bani from akal purkh. How can you know that it is from akal purkh. This akal purk can not speak by him/her self? Every one can claim that akal purkh is talking to him/her. There are other kind of people in India that the bhoot posess them the bhoot speak through them. Don’t tell me that akal pukh is bhoot. Would you believe me if I tell you that I am from another planet. I am here to see if people here are doing as I told them to do? I am sure you will not. Why do you belive what is written in the book as poems. I can say that poems are good have good message, that’s all. So are the other holly books beside kuran.
> All relious people claim that their holy books are the word of god. Christain claim that Jesus is the only son of God, but you don’t believe them. Becouse you are using logic and dot take their word for it. So why do want me and other Sikhs to believe you that it is living guru. There is no living thing about this book. The massage in the SGGS is to naam simran. And do no harm to any life.No where in the book it say to worship the book.Guru Nanak condemn all what we are doing now in his name. If you have problem understanding then I suggest that you should get help from some one who can explain it to you.
> Looks to me you have no experience Unbhab of your own. You just want to believe in the ritual. Do you really think that by doing the rituals you can please God? Can God be pleased or anger? By worshiping book as god you are lowering god to your level.
> Do the naam simran then you will get some unbhab. Youwill see then what it is.Not just reading the book.
> ...


 


> *How can you know that it is from akal purkh.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Sir, Can I ask you a question. How can you prove to a third party you love someone?


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## seeker3k (Apr 23, 2009)

Mr. Vohra ji

Is that the same Bhai sahib Randhir Singh whowas in jail as freedom fighter.His group is called akhand kirtania?
If he is the same one, I have nothing to do with his writing or with his group. They don’t even eat langar at gurdwaras. They don’t eat any food at their relatives. THEY ONLY EAT AT THOSE WHO GOT THE AMRIT AT THEIR GROUP They CLEAN EVERY POT AND PAN AND CLEAN THE STOVE BEFORE THEY MAKE THEIR FOOD.
What you said about the SGGS is living person and the property can be registered on SGGS’s name. That made SGGS a corporation. Do you think it is good thing that SGGS is corporation? Corporation have to make profit in the corporation by-laws. Just like any corporation it become business. Thanks for making it clear for us. Now we are the followers of corporation.


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## Hardip Singh (Apr 24, 2009)

Dear seeker3 jee,

Living person never means a corporation. You are a living being does not means you are a corporation. Corporation has to be a group of people doing something of their common interest. 

Guru Nanak sahib has elobrated in one of his teachings to grab the TRUTH / Knowledge about HIM , even if it is availible with someone whom you donot follow or belive. Truth remains the truth. If it is said in abook by Bhai sahib of AKJ does not matter, it is still the truth findings. I do not belong to AKJ but still I feel what Bhai sahib has said in that book is a fact only.

Further, you started reply by saying the Govt. labeling us as Terorist . I will like to inform you that the the said judgement was not delivered by a politically compelled Government but was a judgement by a full bench of eminent jurists of Supreme Court who after going thro a lot of heated discussion on the said topic by various religious groups, delivered the judgement.

I hope you will be able to relize what I me


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## Randip Singh (Apr 24, 2009)

seeker3k said:


> Mr. Vohra ji
> 
> Is that the same Bhai sahib Randhir Singh whowas in jail as freedom fighter.His group is called akhand kirtania?
> If he is the same one, I have nothing to do with his writing or with his group. They don’t even eat langar at gurdwaras. They don’t eat any food at their relatives. THEY ONLY EAT AT THOSE WHO GOT THE AMRIT AT THEIR GROUP They CLEAN EVERY POT AND PAN AND CLEAN THE STOVE BEFORE THEY MAKE THEIR FOOD.
> .


 
On a side note and I suppose to do with purification, this smacks of purity i.e. that which is practiced by those who belive in Halal and those who have Brahmanical puritanical tendencies? :ice:

I understand Namdhari's do tis as well? :yes:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 24, 2009)

many sants and tasklils derawadees do that too....they have separate langgars for so called high  and low castes ....their "brahimin/vedic" roots force this behaviour...althogh they look like sikhs complete with 3 or 5 ft kirpans


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 24, 2009)

Virinder ji,

Guru Fateh.

I agree, that Sikhi is the journey of the individual and the only roadmap- the true GPS for this journey is SGGS. However, it is also important to point out that many cults in Sikhi who stand out as Sikhs with Kakaars believe in their cultish rituals and practice them in their everyday lives in Brahmanical ways and due to this they do not act like 'cones' to protect us from the potential dangers when the roads are being repaired but as road blocks to the Sikhi Marg.

Having said that, I also agree with you that we as individuals should talk about our own frailties and short comings more often than others'. If we do not learn through the tools given to us by our Gurus in SGGS to value our own diamonds within, then we will keep on claiming other people's diamonds as mere rocks. Once we learn to be the true evaluators of the selves  then only we will be able to spark our inner amber whose light will benefit all that surround us.

Isn't that the true essence of " Vand kei Chaknah"?

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Apr 24, 2009)

*Posts formerly number 98 and 99 have been removed. Please post the entire shabad with English translation and Gurmukhi, along with the Ang number. Thank you, aad0002*


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## seeker3k (Apr 25, 2009)

Dear VSGrewal ji,

You said it lot better then I could have. We Sikhs always talk about what is in GGS. This statement is wrong. It sound that it is in only this GGS is right. Spirituality is all over in every walk of life. It is not one religion’s domain. All the religions are made by men. Men are corrupt power hungry greedy. We Sikhs claim that what is in GGS it came from God. Do we make a claim about our Gurus bani came from God or other bhagat,sants’s bani too.
There is nothing in GGS that is new. It has been said before by many people. We celebrate our Guru’s birth day and their death. I have not seen we celebrating bhat and sant’s birth dayds. Yet we claim that GGS is our Guru. When we chose some and not the other it make us bias. How those people feel about it when we neglect their Gurus.
Is there a need to celebrate of dead people when we have so called living guru.
Looks like we do not really believe that this is living guru. I know this statement will make many people angry. But truth heart.
One of the person replied to my question that the Truth is Truth. There are over 6 billion people in this world, that’s how many truths there are. No one is really interested in knowing the truth. We can not handle the TRUTH. We look for other people’s writing to certify our truth and claim that it is the truth. If one want to know the Truth he/she must examine his/her own truth.. Getting birth in Sikh family does not make us sikh. We must study the Sikhism to the core and weed out the faulty rituals that take us away from the spirituality
What is the real purpose of keeping the 5K’s. It is the soul that we should be worring about. The body and all the K’s will be left here. This is the message in the GGS, as I can understand it. Making the khalsa was needed then and I do respect Guru Gobind Singh for creating the Khalsa. That is not, be all and end all. If doing our rituals are going to save our soul as we believe. Then other relious rituals are as good as ours. Yet ignore and hate other beings. Is this what Guru Nanak wanted or Guru Gobind Singh? I refuse to belive that. Why? Because I have unbhub my experiences. I started on this path back in 1971. Then one of the person showed me how to realize my self. I started as a ritual but all the rituals are dropped now. If that will take me to hell as others say to me, then so be it. I know the TRUTH that’s all that matter. As now I can not be bound by any rituals.
This sabd guru, you are talking about. Can you explain what it is and how it works?
Nanak talked about it. As you know or may not know this sabd guru as waheguru was not there at the time of Guru Nanak. Then what was he talking about?  Why are we stuck that this is sabd guru. Did Nanak kept it secret as the group of Bhai sahib Randher Sing’s group claim. I believe that sabd is guru that’s all we need. It is not only in Sikhism. The naam sabd was there in the begging and it will be here for ever. Maybe some can explain how it works. The sabd is not in isms. But people make religion in the name of sabd.
Ask your self why I am doing what I am doing. Then you can know your self. It start with knowing one self. There is no rituals needed. May be in the begging it is needed. As we go to school to learn. Every year we move to next class to learn more by leaving the pervious class behind. If we chose to remain in same class over and over. We will know every thing that is taught in that class but will not know and will miss out what we could have learned in higher class.
Choice is yours.


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## har13 (Jul 23, 2009)

randip singh said:


> I know that what we do is for blessings, but it is the behaviour of our people, it is as if the food has been purified. That is what I am trying to get at.


 
Randip Singh ji,
I agree with you. I also think that Ardas is for thanks to God who provides us food.
Not for purifying food.
However we  usually recite gurbani when making langar. And ardas before taking it.

Regards,
Har


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## har13 (Jul 23, 2009)

seeker3k said:


> Here we are talking about soul not the body.So when Indian gov declair that Sikhs are terrorist then you have problem. In this case you approved their ruling. Becouse it suit you. You admit that you are not holy soul that can get the bani from akal purkh. How can you know that it is from akal purkh. This akal purk can not speak by him/her self? Every one can claim that akal purkh is talking to him/her. There are other kind of people in India that the bhoot posess them the bhoot speak through them. Don’t tell me that akal pukh is bhoot. Would you believe me if I tell you that I am from another planet. I am here to see if people here are doing as I told them to do? I am sure you will not. Why do you belive what is written in the book as poems. I can say that poems are good have good message, that’s all. So are the other holly books beside kuran.
> All relious people claim that their holy books are the word of god. Christain claim that Jesus is the only son of God, but you don’t believe them. Becouse you are using logic and dot take their word for it. So why do want me and other Sikhs to believe you that it is living guru. There is no living thing about this book. The massage in the SGGS is to naam simran. And do no harm to any life.No where in the book it say to worship the book.Guru Nanak condemn all what we are doing now in his name. If you have problem understanding then I suggest that you should get help from some one who can explain it to you.
> Looks to me you have no experience Unbhab of your own. You just want to believe in the ritual. Do you really think that by doing the rituals you can please God? Can God be pleased or anger? By worshiping book as god you are lowering god to your level.
> Do the naam simran then you will get some unbhab. Youwill see then what it is.Not just reading the book.
> ...


 

Sat sri Akal ji,
Have you heard about baba Nand singh Ji, who made it true  " pargat guran ki deh"

According to my point of view everyone needs a teacher which can show him/her a path. So Guru Granth sahib ji is a teacher ( Guru) which shows us correct path of life.
Hyms are not just poems. Every line teaches us a lesson. So I think it is not bad to give respect to a teacher/ guru. So we do. It is true we are born in a sikh family. Our Guru read every religion and gave us the best things of all. So we do not have any need to read any other religion. 
We know when we start ""rasna japti tu hi tu"". there is nothing left.
 So Guru Granth Sahib ji is our Guru. 

If other religion want to give repect to their holy books it is up to them. 

Regards,
Har


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## vsgrewal48895 (Jul 23, 2009)

Dear All,

Please recite before eating any food to pay our gratitude to Akal Purkh for providing us with that;

ਜਿਹ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਛਤੀਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ਤਿਸੁ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਉ ਰਖੁ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ 

_Jih parsāḏ cẖẖaṯīh amriṯ kẖāhi.Ŧis ṯẖākur ka▫o rakẖ man māhi._ 

By His Grace, you partake of the thirty-six delicacies; enshrine that Lord and Master within your mind. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri Sukhmani 5th Astpadi, AGGS, Page 269-14

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal


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## harbansj24 (Jul 24, 2009)

While doing Ardas we say "Waheguru, we place before you, the Prasad and Langar which you are requested to bless and give permission to serve to the Sangat. 

The meaning is quite straightforward. So obviously there should not be any wastage of such prasad and langar.


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## Archived_Member5 (Jul 24, 2009)

You will find upon closer examination many religious and cultural rituals and ceremonies can be explained scientifically in a spiritual sense. 

Life and existence is a constant ongoing chemical reaction, experiences with others, social and interpersonal interaction all depends upon synchronicity, aligned minds, or spirits, or mindsets or an established physical order. The electrical charges emitted by the individual not only determine his attitude and thermodynamic magnetic field {positive or negative} but also gauges the responses to his interaction with his world. Human beings are powerful portals of electromagnetic energy, this energy if stabilised creates an aura of harmony and affinity with the environment and internally with oneself.

A perfectly well balanced and healthy individual is able to function solely upon the chemical nutrients emitted by the brain of a healthy strong willed mind. This is the ultimate state of Sahej for Ascetics. Realistically mans task should be to obtain maximum output to minimum energy input. Prayer and Ardaas prior to feasting is probably based upon this Spiritual system of supplication of the physical receptors to nutrition, enhancing nutritional absorption and maximising the goodness derived from the food consumed. 

It is medically well documented a strong steadfast mind creates a fortress like firm body and fine tuned digestive system. This is evidenced in happy people remaining healthy and active on bread and milk staples, whilst stressed and pressurised miserable beings regardless of the expensive and lavish banqueting suffer many maladies’ and bodily dysfunctions because the bio-systems inability to properly absorb and digest nutrients extracted from the food, inhibited further by the excessive energy requirements that heightened states of mental stress and a pressurised psyche demand. 

Ardaas literally calms in readiness the digestive system and spirit to maximise absorption of essential nutrients. You may find upon further examination near all Sikhi tradition and customs are rooted in a deep wisdom and knowledge of mans participle role in his world and his ability and objective in gaining mastery of will, mind and thereby body. The thanking The WaheGuru for his benefaction also serves to remind the human of his vulnerability and susceptibility to of availability of food sources vital for his survival. 

**
With regard to wastage or ’’nyiatt’ the greed is prohibited by the sacred law of taking a portion sufficient for one’s lifestyle energy requirement or body usage, overcoming greed born of fear of food shortage and the ingrained need for humans to amass fat stores in case of emergency famines. In this age these basal instinct requires overriding and the mind and body re-programmed to think in terms of requirement than gluttonous or inadequate disproportionate consumption to energy needs in relation to metabolism.

Scientists, Philosophers and researchers of truth are arduous scholars of a truth, Gurmat or Wisdom is present and part of the soul of a Saint and Brahm Giani. Whilst finding great knowledge in the pursuit of truth in the aforementioned, there is nothing to compare to the prose and poetry of the Bani written by the hand of our Guru Ji. ...


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## seeker3k (Jul 24, 2009)

I will reply to this in due time.My reply may not be posted. I sent one reply it was not posted beacuse it differ from the editer's poit of view. Wait a week or so if you dont see the reply any one wishing to get it may send me private email


Please do not publish your private email in the forum for security and Internet safety reasons. You do not know who will make mischief. If anyone wants to reach you they should use your private messages through SPN, and then you can send your private email that person/those people individually. Hope you understand. Narayanjot Kaur


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## Randip Singh (Jul 26, 2009)

har13 said:


> Randip Singh ji,
> I agree with you. I also think that Ardas is for thanks to God who provides us food.
> Not for purifying food.
> However we  usually recite gurbani when making langar. And ardas before taking it.
> ...



Unfortunately a lot of people assume ardas somehow purifies food.

How can we as men and women purify Gods creation?


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## Archived_Member5 (Jul 26, 2009)

The relation between mind, body and focus of consumption – A devotee at the end of Kirtan takes the sacred Parshaad being dispensed by the Gyani, to him its sweet nourishing oil is as manna to his palette. He says Waheguru’’ to distributor and fills his belly and soul with the satisfying mix of wheat, sugar and butter. It satiates a hunger no amount of food can do. Post consuming he gently massages teh residual oil onto his hands marvelling at how they glisten with the Holy Food. His spirit is satisfied. He does not know whether it was braised sufficiently or contained enough quantative ratios of sugar and butter, only that it is given by grace of God to the hungered in Spirit. He is nourished and requires little else. As a Mothers cooking is to the weary traveller. He may eat in many restaurant’s, have the inexhaustible wealth to eat where so his heart pleases, and does, to find no greater fare than the simple vegetarian bhangon ki purji, aloo matter ki sabji, or kheer cooked with a Mother’s Love, simple fare made ineffably nourishing by the hand that dispenses it with love and best intent.

Scenario 2 - An unappreciative mean and fickle mind individual takes parshaad from the Gyani at the Gurdwara, she finds it oily or dry, too sweet or not insufficiently roasted, she pulls a face critical of the inadequate catering skills of the cook, and suggests to the Gyaani he distribute tissues to clean surplus ghee away from the hands post eating the Parshaad. The women is uptight closed minded, probably retentive exposing her to threat of illness and dysfucntion and lacking in the beholden grateful mindset to take of the sacred Parshaad in the spirit of the goodwill intended.

Food is purified by the chemical process of a healthy mind releasing endorphin like chemical when chanting Ardas. These powerful chemicals literally destroy any present toxins in the gut, in turn maximising potency of the nutritional content of the food. A chemical process in a healthy gut makes bread more nourishing to the healthy belly than a thousand ‘organic’ or ‘’home reared’ advertised foodstuffs achieving no such success in highly strung fastidious irreligious constitutions.

It is essentially the link between the dilated mind and body supplicated and amenable to the *Spirit*  in which the daily food or Parshaad is offered. The Ardaas reminds us of The Great Benefactor, The Supreme WaheGuru’s grace and love offered as sustenance. The food is better digested and availed of any nutritional constituents when Love is present. The digestive system is inextricably linked to the mind, Ardas makes mindful the individual in readiness to optimise absorption of nutrition and optimise enjoyment of the food and life in general in the sense of knowing we are tended to and under the Grace of The Almighty WaheGurMat. ...


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 26, 2009)

1.What is impure?

2.What is pure and how can it be determined that it was impure before?

3.What does purification mean in this context?

4.How does this purification help our immune systems?

5.One can determine the purity of a metal by the scientific methods, How can one determine the purity of food? What scientific methods should be applied?

6.Does pure mean safe from e.coli and other dangerous diseases that can kill humans?

Would love the guidance of the Sadh Sangat to clarify the above.

Tejwant Singh


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## Archived_Member5 (Jul 26, 2009)

*1.What is impure*? 


Impure is a mind sullied by paap, haram, kroh, moh, lob, hanker. This infection causes disease in the body, behaviour and attitude and to avoided at all costs. Impurity of the mind is caused be weakness of will, poor counsel or guidance causing mean character, hypocrisy, duality of actions and thoughts and the pursuit of maya to compensate for the subsequent lack of substance and contentment within. The pure mind is free from fear and temptation, anger and zid, and consequently is greater in rationale and reason enabled by a clear conscience and fair mindedness.

*2.What is pure and how can it be determined that it was impure before?*


The pure mind is free from fear and temptation, anger and zid, and consequently is greater in rationale and reason enabled by a clear conscience and fair mindedness. Impurity is manifest in intolerance, immorality, impropriety, sin vices, attachment to and reliance upon materialism and others rather than mastery of the same. An impure mind is purified by prayer, by understanding, by faith, by altruism in the true sense, by good deeds in the Sangat, by being true to the Supreme Soul and the self it contains. Shedding fears and wilfulness, being sensitive to others, nurturing a love of God and his creation than the ad verbatim recitation of Bani or outward displays of piety. Being courageous and humble sufficiently to live ones Truth than simply preach or chant it. Cynics deem this state of sahej to be unattainable, an opinion I vehemently contest. In the company of the saintly and fair, the defences constructed in the cause of self preservation fall and true freedom and peace is gained.

*4.How does this purification help our immune systems?*


A balanced mind and spirit creates an equilibrium within where the body gain equipoise and is able to function on a high energy output on minimal nutrition caused by the bio-system, similar to a well tuned car engine, functioning at optimum. A regulated digestive tract ceases to release toxins from impure matter and slowly builds up immunity to the toxins ridding the system of the same and creating antibodies. Once passing this phase the mind, body and spirit become naturally inclined towards good speech, conduct, nutrition and demeanour eliminating the constant struggle man is embroiled in with temptations. This creates a harmonious aura deflecting further assaults from others as there is no contrition or anger to rouse the demons within others.

*5.One can determine the purity of a metal by the scientific methods, How can one determine the purity of food? What scientific methods should be applied?*


Basic science tests are able to detect the presence of strong cells dominating antibody cells, although crucial in battling infection, drain excessive energy supplies. You should not require scientific testing other than to prove what is apparent for all to see. Drastic chemical changes occur in the person undergoing purification, skin is radiant, naturally fragrant, urges and cravings caused by irregularities diminished and controlled, optimised energy output, mental clarity and peace of mind are the indicators.Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network 

*6.Does pure mean safe from e.coli and other dangerous diseases that can kill humans?*

A pure mind creates a string body and immune system enable to flush out upon contact symptoms of impurity, carnal cravings, sin vices, paap. A strong Mind, Spirit and Body become almost ethereally immortalised, true liberty and peace. Most diseases tend to kill the weak and vulnerable whilst the strong recover and regain good health.

Kahde Pavit, sundhe pavit, se pavit jin mann vasaia - They immersed in truth, speak truth, hear truth, consume purity, and become pure in mind. 

Excessive education is detrimental to the mind Tejwant Singh Ji. It makes verbose and sense redundant, ultimately all knowledge leads to The One Truth, for those with clear conscience to hear. Utopia is not disbanded by your disbelief, and they who dwell in peace and love, gain Kiwan Mukhti and swarg here on earth, trolls and demons notwithstanding...

***merry go-round * marys circular reasoning is soon deconstructed and set upon a straight righteous path...

At no point in this response doers it cite ''pure foods', I am well aware of Guru Nanaks response to so called sanctimonious ''puritans'', it is rather of the chemical, emotional and spiritual interaction between man and his world that either impures or makes toxic. Rather what I havehighlighted is in accordance with Guru Nanaks citation, no matter how pure the food is the mind be cunning, the group have malicious intentions, and an individual be arrogant/deceitful in its piety, he becomes impurer than kinder. generous hearted souls. Please reread the post.

***
Purity, racial purity or Lordship was fought and battled and demarcated only to be replaced by white supremacy and black dominance with no defined cultural or religious parameters resulting in the socio-political chaos we have presiding over us today.. This white supremacy has no other saving grace than it is white {bahroh nirmal andhroh maile }, the demands by women for equality and power regardless of integrity, virtue or any honour they may have gained from their Lord. The. Lord is no longer required to be won, to be loved but be overcome with state assistance, the family, matrimonial laws no longer have any value, marriages are wrecked, homes destroyed, children and mothers emotionally destroyed by women’s demands to wed whom they please regardless. The entire system is impure, hypocritical, based on lies and rights gained by protest than merit. Pure minded good people are rare if not made obsolete, anger wilfulness and wrath rules the day, the consequences of impurity within manifest in desecration without. Purity is the aim of religion yet it is fought for by demander’s of equality for sinners and the good alike. It is a battle fought from the outset and has yet to be won. Maybe you are right and I will heed, Wisdom is fought at all junctures and God blamed for all acts of evil and mans failing in overcoming and conquering it. The days of our Mothers supporting an extended network of family by grace and love are gone, now women bark retorts of governmental assistance if man challenges her demagoguery and demands for rights, she no longer needs to respect or care for family and society is easily won with ingratiation. See what the discarding of Guru Nanaks words has caused. It was then and is now. God has withdrawn, and I am bound by what seems an inescapable Jadugiri, at a time I no longer have any belief in man or God or truth prevailing. The demon lord drives the will and leads where neither sut, mit nor bhai dwell, decidedly impure and I not in the habit of playing victim or advocator. Religions seem underseige by new age interventions seeking to submit its sacred laws for their own interests. Well supported and the old guard traditionalist silent and dignified. Why not become philosophers, scientists or politicians if the basic principles of Spiritual Purity are rejected or deemed unfathomable.

YouTube - teri yaad 1984 repost

YouTube - mere dushman mere bhai  from border movie (if you are indian or pakistani must see this video)


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 26, 2009)

Jeetijohal ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response.

Your response shows nothing but your emphasis on Utopia laced with ego which again is a pipe dream and offers nothing practical  to anyone in how to live  everyday life of Miri- Piri.

The percentage of purity can only be determined in metals and chemicals through scientific methods. There is no other way.

Purity has nothing to do with us humans. Khalsa means purehearted, hence its degree of "purity" can not be gauged nor determinded by an outsider much less by the person him/herself because it is a Gurmat work in progress.

We should all be concerend about safety ( purity) of our food we consume so it does not affect us in negatve ways and comes and haunt us in the future as cancer or other fatal diseases rather that taking a ride on some Utopic Mary go round.

My 2 cent worth.

Tejwant Singh


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## Randip Singh (Jul 26, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> *1.What is impure*?
> 
> 
> Impure is a mind sullied by paap, haram, kroh, moh, lob, hanker. This infection causes disease in the body, behaviour and attitude and to avoided at all costs. Impurity of the mind is caused be weakness of will, poor counsel or guidance causing mean character, hypocrisy, duality of actions and thoughts and the pursuit of maya to compensate for the subsequent lack of substance and contentment within. The pure mind is free from fear and temptation, anger and zid, and consequently is greater in rationale and reason enabled by a clear conscience and fair mindedness.
> ...



What are these pure foods?

Please list them.

Are you saying Ardas purifies food? or Ardas purifies the person eating the food?

or is this the same scenario when Guru Nanak joined the mullahs for prayer and laughed? i.e. someone doing Ardas and thinking about something else?


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