# Why Is There Suffering And Chaos In This World?



## Jasdeep118 (Jun 18, 2018)

So, I never found the reason why there is suffering in this world, and I just don't understand why it happens to good people as well and why the 1984 Anti-Sikh riots happened. So many innocent Sikhs died, but they didn't do anything at all, but they suffered. Why did God do such a thing? Also why is there large scale tradegies and terrorist attackings that happen towards innocent people as well.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 19, 2018)

Jasdeep118 said:


> So, I never found the reason why there is suffering in this world, and I just don't understand why it happens to good people as well and why the 1984 Anti-Sikh riots happened. So many innocent Sikhs died, but they didn't do anything at all, but they suffered. Why did God do such a thing? Also why is there large scale tradegies and terrorist attackings that happen towards innocent people as well.



who said God did anything? We are a race with our own mind, our own desires, egos, lusts, and then, go a bit beyond that, and we have even more that lives in the subconscious, even more desire, even more lust, and a whole lot more we do not have any inkling of, until its happened, or its too late, 

so what is God supposed to do, keep us all in check? act as some sort of undelete function to undo all the shit that we create? and then people like you have a go at this entity for not doing a good enough job? Why should God do anything? its our own hell that we created ourself


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## RicktheSikh (Jun 19, 2018)

The answer to that question would depend on your view of free will vs. determinism. If you believe we have absolute free will then you can't blame God for anything. If you believe in absolute determinism then you might take issue with "God's plan", then again who is to say you understand the big picture enough to take issue with destiny? From my understanding Sikhi holds a soft deterministic view of things, that is to say some things are destined and some things are left to us to completely foul up.


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## Jasdeep118 (Jun 19, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> who said God did anything? We are a race with our own mind, our own desires, egos, lusts, and then, go a bit beyond that, and we have even more that lives in the subconscious, even more desire, even more lust, and a whole lot more we do not have any inkling of, until its happened, or its too late,
> 
> so what is God supposed to do, keep us all in check? act as some sort of undelete function to undo all the shit that we create? and then people like you have a go at this entity for not doing a good enough job? Why should God do anything? its our own hell that we created ourself


Does that mean there is no such thing as a God?


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## Jasdeep118 (Jun 19, 2018)

One last question what about the question regarding Natural Evil such as hurricanes, tsunami's, disease, and such. I don't understand that, I understand against Human Evil and such, but what about natural evil. I understand how man or humanity is filled with flaws and we have our own egos and such, but what about nature?


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## RicktheSikh (Jun 19, 2018)

Jasdeep118 said:


> One last question what about the question regarding Natural Evil such as hurricanes, tsunami's, disease, and such. I don't understand that, I understand against Human Evil and such, but what about natural evil. I understand how man or humanity is filled with flaws and we have our own egos and such, but what about nature?



Weather can't be "evil". Who is to say if a hurricane is a good thing or a bad thing? The answer is entirely subjective. Even if lives are lost in a weather related natural disaster, you can't blame God for the loss of those lives. Weather patterns have existed before humans (I think), there are a number of factors that come together to make natural disasters occur, God didn't make anyone live right next to active volcanoes, evacuation is often an option when these things happen, etc. When you stop asking "why?" you can begin to accept what simply is.


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## notanotherloginplease (Jun 19, 2018)

"Hukamei Andar Sab ko bahr Hukam na koi"
We appear to have a free will until we do not go beyond the realm of Mind but then we realize as per above  that everything happens with his Hukam.
We have a logic of Karma, which explains whatever we sow, we have to reap , bad or good doesn't matter.

As @Harry Haller  wrote, we have our own mind and we can act/react to a situation as it pleases us. We should keep doing it but always try to do if it seems morally correct and we will still do it if we have to do it for our satguru. Leave the rest in His hands. "Jo kare kartar sai bhali kaar."

As far good humans getting bad treatment is concerned - It could either be their Karma or it must be in their favor when looking at great schema. It may seem unjust but it is keeping creation in balance.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 20, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> When you stop asking "why?" you can begin to accept what simply is.



maybe one should ever stop asking why, and never accept what simply is, if you had any hand in it yourself.

 how else can anyone learn?


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## RicktheSikh (Jun 20, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> maybe one should ever stop asking why, and never accept what simply is, if you had any hand in it yourself.
> 
> how else can anyone learn?



True that. As long as you accept what you cannot change and accept that there are no answers to some questions.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 20, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> True that. As long as you accept what you cannot change and accept that there are no answers to some questions.



How do you know what you cannot change?

How do you know which questions have no answers?

100 years ago, we could not change the weather, now we can...

50 Years ago, I would be dead from the several heart attacks I have had, today, we insert leg veins, 

25 Years ago, pragmatism and questioning within Sikhism was not encouraged, especially by the men in white beards, now the men in white beards are vanishing, now we encourage questions and pragmatism

Can you give me an example of something I should accept without question, and a question that I should accept has no answers?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 20, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> 25 Years ago, pragmatism and questioning within Sikhism was not encouraged, especially by the men in white beards, now the men in white beards are vanishing, now we encourage questions and pragmatism



How about those who dye their white beards with henna?

As a white-bearded man who also does katha, I take offence in your assumption that I am vanishing.


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## RicktheSikh (Jun 20, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> How do you know what you cannot change?
> 
> How do you know which questions have no answers?
> 
> ...



No, I can't tell you what you should accept without question. I my experience, however, a continuously restless mind doesn't bring me peace and doesn't allow me to focus on anything but finding the solution to whatever I "need" to resolve.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 20, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> How about those who dye their white beards with henna?
> 
> As a white-bearded man who also does katha, I take offence in your assumption that I am vanishing.



sorry, i forgot to include the word long, i meant long white beards, silly me!


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## Harry Haller (Jun 20, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> No, I can't tell you what you should accept without question. I my experience, however, a continuously restless mind doesn't bring me peace and doesn't allow me to focus on anything but finding the solution to whatever I "need" to resolve.



Peace is overrated, its what babies do, peace is the end, its death, its when you stop living, my mind is constantly restless, although for a recent period, it was at peace, on balance, I prefer it restless, it feels alive, hungry for answers, for solutions, for engagement, it wants to grow, to learn, it is violent, sexual, ugly, at times beautiful, enriching, ecstatic, and it switches from one to another and back again all day,

what does this peace give you?


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## RicktheSikh (Jun 20, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> Peace is overrated, its what babies do, peace is the end, its death, its when you stop living, my mind is constantly restless, although for a recent period, it was at peace, on balance, I prefer it restless, it feels alive, hungry for answers, for solutions, for engagement, it wants to grow, to learn, it is violent, sexual, ugly, at times beautiful, enriching, ecstatic, and it switches from one to another and back again all day,
> 
> what does this peace give you?



It gives me freedom from anger that the world isn't as it "should" be. It gives my mind rest so I can contemplate oneness with the Akal Purkh. It helps me appreciate the small things and gives me a reprieve from worrying about the big picture. I value these things.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 20, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> It gives me freedom from anger that the world isn't as it "should" be. It gives my mind rest so I can contemplate oneness with the Akal Purkh. It helps me appreciate the small things and gives me a reprieve from worrying about the big picture. I value these things.



Curious, 

How should the world be?
What are the small things?
What is the big picture?

thanks


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## RicktheSikh (Jun 20, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> Curious,
> 
> How should the world be?
> What are the small things?
> ...



The answers to these questions are all subjective. My personal answers are that the world should be just and compassionate. The small things include tender moments with loved ones and the joy of feeling the first drops of the first rain of the season. The big picture includes the environmental degradation of the Earth, the creeping threat of a technological police state and the eventual death of the planet.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 20, 2018)

post: 216932 said:
			
		

> The answers to these questions are all subjective.


sure they are, but they help us see where you come from,



RicktheSikh said:


> My personal answers are that the world should be just and compassionate. The small things include tender moments with loved ones and the joy of feeling the first drops of the first rain of the season. The big picture includes the environmental degradation of the Earth, the creeping threat of a technological police state and the eventual death of the planet.



your no fun anymore, I'll go find someone else to torment


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## Ishna (Jun 21, 2018)

God grant me serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference. - allegedly Reinhold Niebuhr


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## sukhsingh (Jun 21, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> The answer to that question would depend on your view of free will vs. determinism. If you believe we have absolute free will then you can't blame God for anything. If you believe in absolute determinism then you might take issue with "God's plan", then again who is to say you understand the big picture enough to take issue with destiny? From my understanding Sikhi holds a soft deterministic view of things, that is to say some things are destined and some things are left to us to completely foul up.


Please explain what soft deterministic means ?


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## RicktheSikh (Jun 22, 2018)

sukhsingh said:


> Please explain what soft deterministic means ?



Exactly what I said in the last sentence of mine that you quoted. Or if you'd prefer a different definition...

Soft determinism is the view that determinism and free will are compatible. It is thus a form of compatibilism. The term was coined by the American philosopher William James (1842-1910) in his essay “The Dilemma of Determinism.”


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## Ishna (Jun 22, 2018)

Three cheers for compatibilism!


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## sukhsingh (Jun 22, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> Exactly what I said in the last sentence of mine that you quoted. Or if you'd prefer a different definition...
> 
> Soft determinism is the view that determinism and free will are compatible. It is thus a form of compatibilism. The term was coined by the American philosopher William James (1842-1910) in his essay “The Dilemma of Determinism.”


Thanks I'll have to look that up


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## Harry Haller (Jun 23, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> The answers to these questions are all subjective. My personal answers are that the world should be just and compassionate. The small things include tender moments with loved ones and the joy of feeling the first drops of the first rain of the season. The big picture includes the environmental degradation of the Earth, the creeping threat of a technological police state and the eventual death of the planet.



The world is just and compassionate, it is the human beings in the world that make it not so, and as long as there are human beings, it will never be just and compassionate, the only just and compassionate world is the world within us, some of us choose to live there, and there alone, some choose to reject it and live in a world of maya and shit, that is our own choice.

I won't argue with your small things, (I've seen the photos)

The big picture is irrelevant, it will not affect me in my lifetime, nor my kids, as I have none, so I guess that is someone else's problem, but, as with everything that happens in the world, everything will be as it should be


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## RicktheSikh (Jun 24, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> The world is just and compassionate, it is the human beings in the world that make it not so, and as long as there are human beings, it will never be just and compassionate, the only just and compassionate world is the world within us, some of us choose to live there, and there alone, some choose to reject it and live in a world of maya and shit, that is our own choice.
> 
> I won't argue with your small things, (I've seen the photos)
> 
> The big picture is irrelevant, it will not affect me in my lifetime, nor my kids, as I have none, so I guess that is someone else's problem, but, as with everything that happens in the world, everything will be as it should be



Sounds like you're accepting what simply is.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 24, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> Sounds like you're accepting what simply is.


quite the opposite, I am rejecting what simply is, for the sheer hell of it


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## Jasdeep118 (Jun 24, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> quite the opposite, I am rejecting what simply is, for the sheer hell of it


Harry I was asking you a question. Do you think that there is a God or a higher being, I mean you seem of a secular person of sorts, but you were raised as a Sikh when you were younger.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 25, 2018)

I do believe in a God, but I guess not the sort of God that most people believe in, God is my best mate, he is with me all the time, he does not really suggest any of the things I end up doing, or have done, he is like my passive best mate that just goes along with it, and then gives me that look after its all over, and then I look back at him and say, yeah ok, but it was fun wasn't it, he laughs with me when I laugh, he cries with me when I cry, he shares my victories in life, and he shares my losses, I am never alone, ever, he is a great guy, a great best friend, never lets me down, always up for whatever bonkers idea I have at the time, he has no opinion or direction, in fact, he talks like a therapist, he questions my desires, my motives, my agendas, makes me clarify them, makes me explain them, but never stands in my way, sometimes I put him though unimaginable shit, sometimes unimaginable pleasures, and no matter where we end up, he will always say at the end of the day, always a laugh with you Harry, always a laugh.


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## Jasdeep118 (Jun 25, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> I do believe in a God, but I guess not the sort of God that most people believe in, God is my best mate, he is with me all the time, he does not really suggest any of the things I end up doing, or have done, he is like my passive best mate that just goes along with it, and then gives me that look after its all over, and then I look back at him and say, yeah ok, but it was fun wasn't it, he laughs with me when I laugh, he cries with me when I cry, he shares my victories in life, and he shares my losses, I am never alone, ever, he is a great guy, a great best friend, never lets me down, always up for whatever bonkers idea I have at the time, he has no opinion or direction, in fact, he talks like a therapist, he questions my desires, my motives, my agendas, makes me clarify them, makes me explain them, but never stands in my way, sometimes I put him though unimaginable shit, sometimes unimaginable pleasures, and no matter where we end up, he will always say at the end of the day, always a laugh with you Harry, always a laugh.



I liked your view on God Harry, but I have one more question. Are you still connected with Sikhi still, I mean do you go to the Gurdwara occasionally or think about the Guru's? One last thing do you think that there is an afterlife or a soul. Sorry for the questions, I am just curious because I was younger I thought you were a "gora" who was curious about Sikhi but I realised you were an "apnay" who was from Southhall


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 25, 2018)

Ishna said:


> God grant me serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
> Courage to change the things I can,
> And wisdom to know the difference. - allegedly Reinhold Niebuhr



Are you sure?
I thought it was Joseph Smith's 20th wife who said that.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 25, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> Exactly what I said in the last sentence of mine that you quoted. Or if you'd prefer a different definition...
> 
> Soft determinism is the view that determinism and free will are compatible. It is thus a form of compatibilism. The term was coined by the American philosopher William James (1842-1910) in his essay “The Dilemma of Determinism.”



But if I am not mistaken, this essay is based on the free will as talked in Christianity because the term was coined then. Are both of us on the same page?


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## Harry Haller (Jun 25, 2018)

Jasdeep118 said:


> I liked your view on God Harry, but I have one more question.


thank you, slightly worrying, but thank you,



Jasdeep118 said:


> Are you still connected with Sikhi still, I mean do you go to the Gurdwara occasionally or think about the Guru's?


Sure I am, but probably not in the way that makes me popular, for instance, only yesterday whilst visiting my parents, someone recounted the following story, 

_Jai Ram, Guru Nanak's brother-in-law was serving as dewan (steward) to the governor, Nawab Daulat Khan Lodhi of Sultanpur. It is said that both Jai Ram and Rai Bular were of the opinion that Guru Nanak was a saint ill-treated by his father; and thus Jai Ram promised to find a job for him in Sultanpur.

Guru Nanak's sister was deeply devoted to her younger brother. On their annual visit to Talwandi, when she noticed her father's impatience at her brother's indifference towards worldly activities, she decided to take him to Sultanpur. Her father gave his consent hoping he would choose a good profession.

Jai Ram got the Guru the post of a store-keeper of Nawab's state granary where the grain was collected as a part of land revenue and later sold. The Guru carried out the duties of the store-keeper very efficiently. The minstrel Mardana subsequently joined the Guru and other friends too followed. Guru Nanak introduced them to the Khan, who provided them suitable jobs in his administration. Every night there was Shabad-Kirtan (singing divine hymns).

One day he was weighing provisions and was counting each weighing as 'one, two, three... ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen'. When he reached the number thirteen (13)- 'Tera' (in Punjabi language Tera means number 13, and Tera also means 'yours', that is 'I am Yours, O Lord'), he went into meditation.

Guru Nanak went on weighing by saying, "Tera, tera, tera..." The customers were happy to receive the extra provisions and did not know how to carry so many goods. They could not understand the bounties of the Lord.

Ultimately the situation reached Nawab Daulat Khan when a charge was levied against the Guru that he was recklessly giving away grain. The Nawab ordered an inquiry which was conducted very carefully. The Guru's detractors were surprised when the stores were found full. In fact, the accounts showed an extra surplus in favour of Guru Nanak.
_
Unfortunately, my reply of 'utter shite' did not go down too well, I attempted to explain that this story made my Guru sound like a thief and a fool, who could do what he liked, and for whom God would cover him in his activities, this story does nothing to promote Sikhism in the way that I see it, and herein lies the problem, the story promotes stealing from the man you work for, so anyone reading it, could take from it that it is acceptable to steal from the man that pays your wages and give it away to all and sundry, I don't like stories that make my Guru look simple. I was chastised for my language and in the manner of my reply, but in my mind, the greater offence was the intimation that Guru Nanakji was a thief. I always think about the Guru, as I said, he is my best friend, no one speaks about my best friend like that. 

No, I don't go to Gurdwara, I don't own a big merecedes, and I don't have any gold jewels or fine clothes, and I don't particularly need a special place to go to in order to be Sikhlike, or I guess, what I call Sikhlike, I also find the huge pictures of people I don't recognise staring down at me a bit unnerving, the food is also a bit rich for my tastes, as is the smell of agenda. 



Jasdeep118 said:


> One last thing do you think that there is an afterlife or a soul.


No, I guess I don't, every day you wake up, and then one day you don't and then that's it, the big sleep. 

A soul, depends, how do you define soul?

No, I am not from Southall, I live in Essex.


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## Ishna (Jun 25, 2018)

What does "apnay" mean?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 25, 2018)

Ishna said:


> What does "apnay" mean?


Ours.


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## RicktheSikh (Jun 25, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> But if I am not mistaken, this essay is based on the free will as talked in Christianity because the term was coined then. Are both of us on the same page?



I don't know, I just copied and pasted a succinct definition I found online.


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## Ishna (Jun 25, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Ours.



Thanks!


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## Harry Haller (Jun 25, 2018)

i think in this context its more our colour, as we are all ours, are we not?


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## Sikhilove (Jun 25, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> thank you, slightly worrying, but thank you,
> 
> 
> Sure I am, but probably not in the way that makes me popular, for instance, only yesterday whilst visiting my parents, someone recounted the following story,
> ...



That's what you took from the story? You honestly have no idea do you


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## Harry Haller (Jun 25, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> That's what you took from the story? You honestly have no idea do you


nope, and I want it to stay that way, but do be careful what you write if you wish your boundaries to be respected, I prefer to debate with strong minded people that can debate back with me, 


thanks


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## RicktheSikh (Jun 25, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> That's what you took from the story? You honestly have no idea do you



To be fair, fables like this are kind of silly. I'm not familiar with many of them, but the One about a cobra providing shade for Guru Nanak as an infant or the one about Guru Gobind Singh's horse refusing to walk through tobacco fields seem more like bedtime stories for children than anything to be taken seriously. I'll take that back if these stories are found in gurbani. That is all.


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## Sikhilove (Jun 26, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> To be fair, fables like this are kind of silly. I'm not familiar with many of them, but the One about a cobra providing shade for Guru Nanak as an infant or the one about Guru Gobind Singh's horse refusing to walk through tobacco fields seem more like bedtime stories for children than anything to be taken seriously. I'll take that back if these stories are found in gurbani. That is all.



God created the universe out of nothing. I would say that anything is possible


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## RicktheSikh (Jun 26, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> God created the universe out of nothing. I would say that anything is possible



True, but if these stories are true and Gurus wanted us to base our beliefs on them they would be in the bani.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 26, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> God created the universe out of nothing. I would say that anything is possible



that is an oxy{censored}, how could there be nothing if God was present, God is not nothing, therefore, he could not have created the universe out of nothing


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## Sikhilove (Jun 29, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> True, but if these stories are true and Gurus wanted us to base our beliefs on them they would be in the bani.



i understand what you're saying, but its not thousands of years since they lived on the earth. History books recount stories of historical people in detail who lived way before their time. Anyway everyones free to believe whatever so live and let live


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## Harry Haller (Jun 29, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> i understand what you're saying, but its not thousands of years since they lived on the earth. History books recount stories of historical people in detail who lived way before their time. Anyway everyones free to believe whatever so live and let live


yes, live and let live, let us respect all beliefs, especially ones that are deeply personal and should not be shared by way of conversion, all personal experiences are valid, but only to the person concerned.


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## RicktheSikh (Jun 29, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> yes, live and let live, let us respect all beliefs, especially ones that are deeply personal and should not be shared by way of conversion, all personal experiences are valid, but only to the person concerned.



It's like everyone has their own personal denomination here and even simply stating how you think about something is bound to come off like you're talking bad about someone else's deeply held beliefs. No offense intended. Live and let live, believe and let believe.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 30, 2018)

RicktheSikh said:


> It's like everyone has their own personal denomination here and even simply stating how you think about something is bound to come off like you're talking bad about someone else's deeply held beliefs. No offense intended. Live and let live, believe and let believe.



not quite, there is however a fine line between sharing and proselytizing.


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## chetan sharma (Jun 30, 2018)

Jasdeep118 said:


> So, I never found the reason why there is suffering in this world, and I just don't understand why it happens to good people as well and why the 1984 Anti-Sikh riots happened. So many innocent Sikhs died, but they didn't do anything at all, but they suffered. Why did God do such a thing? Also why is there large scale tradegies and terrorist attackings that happen towards innocent people as well.


Read page 3-4 of SGGSJ .. everything explained very well..


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## Ishna (Jun 30, 2018)

chetan sharma said:


> Read page 3-4 of SGGSJ .. everything explained very well..



@chetan sharma ji, perhaps you'd also like to share your own understanding of the shabads and angs you've been sharing so we might benefit from your insight?  For many of us the Gurbani is beautiful but difficult to understand.  Thanks


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## chetan sharma (Jul 1, 2018)

I


Ishna said:


> @chetan sharma ji, perhaps you'd also like to share your own understanding of the shabads and angs you've been sharing so we might benefit from your insight?  For many of us the Gurbani is beautiful but difficult to understand.  Thanks


in this Guru Sahib teach that creation of Akal purkh is beyond imagination, how can we say he just create only good things.. and how we can say who create bad things (fools, thiefs, embezzels, who impose there will by force, sinners, bad peoples who cut throats, ruthless killers, wretches (eat filth) ) .. Guru Sahib said he create both good and bad.. with karma/actions (own) some people reaches close to Akal purkh (with good actions) and some people go away from Akal purkh(because of bad actions )


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