# Amrit Vela / Early Rising - What Does Gurbani Say?



## Ishna (Jul 7, 2015)

Hello

Related to Chaz Ji's recent thread on Amrit Vela, and respecting his wish not to derail the thread with speculation about what actually constitutes 'Amrit Vela', I thought I would start a new thread with my thoughts.

To be honest, I don't find any particular focus on pre-dawn/dawn activities in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.  When used, the term 'amrit vela' is not defined.  "Amrit" means something like 'sweet/ambrosial' and "vela" means "time".  In Guru Ji's lifetime, the phrase 'amrit vela' was commonly used to describe pre-dawn, so today we assume that is what Guru Ji meant.

We have sakhis describing the lifestyle of Guru Sahiban, which suggest they themselves did rise early in the morning to take a bath and recite Gurbani.

However, if it was such an important aspect of the philosophy and lifestyle of a Sikh, wouldn't it be emphasised more, and clearly, in the Gurbani?

This brings me to the word "ਉਪਜੰਪਿ"/"Upjmp".  Please see this shabad on Panna 228 for full context of the shabad relating to this word.

*ਰਾਮਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਕਾ ॥*
_Rām nām cẖiṯ rāpai jā kā._
One whose consciousness is permeated with the Lord's Name -

*ਉਪਜੰਪਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥੧॥*
_Upjamp ḏarsan kījai ṯā kā. ||1||_
receive the blessing of his darshan in the early light of dawn. ||1||​
In the above, *ਉਪਜੰਪਿ *has been translated as 'early light of dawn'.  However, another meaning for it is 'silently recite'.  In the broader landscape of Gurbani, we continually see this theme of inward recitation and inner jap.  Furthermore, the rest of this shabad talks about the Shabad in one's heart.

What are your thoughts regarding the translation of the word?

Thanks


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## Original (Jul 7, 2015)

Ishna said:


> Hello
> 
> Related to Chaz Ji's recent thread on Amrit Vela, and respecting his wish not to derail the thread with speculation about what actually constitutes 'Amrit Vela', I thought I would start a new thread with my thoughts.
> 
> ...


Ishna Ji - from the top of my head, I'd place it close to "rise", because another shabd comes to mind [from memory], that is, "sangat ki j sad ki oop'jay atamic gyan" and oop'jay in this context means "elevate". The shabd you're referring to is likely to be one word and not two syllables denoting "silently recite". In my opinion it would be rise early. To confirm authentic meaning and application I'll raid some of my literature and revert back to you.

Bye


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## chazSingh (Jul 8, 2015)

What would your translation be for the following?

k*u*rab*aa*n*ee* th*i*nh*aa(n)* g*u*ras*i*kh*aa(n)* p*i*shhal r*aa*th*ee* o*u*t(h) beha(n)dh*ae*||
_I am sacrifice unto those Gursikhs who get up in the last quarter of night._


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 8, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> What would your translation be for the following?
> 
> k*u*rab*aa*n*ee* th*i*nh*aa(n)* g*u*ras*i*kh*aa(n)* p*i*shhal r*aa*th*ee* o*u*t(h) beha(n)dh*ae*||
> _I am sacrifice unto those Gursikhs who get up in the last quarter of night._



Chaz ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please post the page number and the whole shabad so others can pitch in with their view. One liners like this are demeaning to our learning process through Gurbani. When you post the Shabad, please give your own understanding as well with it and then  asking others about the shabad becomes valid, hence interactive.

This forum is based on interaction so we can learn from each other. Both shabads you posted on the other thread are also incomplete.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Original (Jul 8, 2015)

Ishna said:


> Hello
> 
> Related to Chaz Ji's recent thread on Amrit Vela, and respecting his wish not to derail the thread with speculation about what actually constitutes 'Amrit Vela', I thought I would start a new thread with my thoughts.
> 
> ...



Ishna Ji

Definitely a diamond of a word *[ਉਪਜੰਪਿ]. *What an interesting enterprise reading around for correct interpretation?

Findings - professor Sahib Singh says, *savera uth'diyan *[early rise]
               - Kahn Singh Nabha's, Mahan Khosh [Oxford equivalent dictionary 
                  of Gursikhi] says, *sur vich kita jap *[silent utterance].
Taken together, an ambiguity within the precise meaning of the word *ਉਪਜੰਪਿ *is found.

According to the literal rule, it is the task of the reader to give the word to be construed its literal meaning regardless of whether the result is sensible or not. In which case, it'll be silent utterance, on the proviso, Mahan Khosh is universally recognised as an authoritative dictionary of Sikhism. There are other interpretative rules which kicks-in should there be absurdity, inconsistency, etc. Conversely, if both authors are taken to be authoritative, then there will ambiguity.

Language is like a coin with two sides - lexicon and grammar, more commonly referred to as, syntactic ambiguity. They are the essential features, which can be the sources of ambiguity. Judicial view on ambiguity is reserved dependent upon a range of factors. Experts are called in, but in all eventuality the matter is left for wider n narrow construction with emphasis on subjectivity over objectivity.

Weighing the two, a value judgment [subjective] would suffice in giving the word its proper signification. In which case, "silent utterance" for you and "early rise" for Chaz.

In reaching great many solutions, a value judgment or aesthetic choice becomes inevitable and necessary no matter how hard the decision maker [Judge] exercise caution by means of careful analysis. And, indeed in some instances the logical solution may be invalidated because essential elements of emotion and irrationality ought to have been the proper considerations.

Ishna, a lot more can be said re interpretation, maybe another time, but the "operative" word which caught my eye was your take on "Amrit". 

Goodnight n Godbless


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## Ishna (Jul 9, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> What would your translation be for the following?
> 
> k*u*rab*aa*n*ee* th*i*nh*aa(n)* g*u*ras*i*kh*aa(n)* p*i*shhal r*aa*th*ee* o*u*t(h) beha(n)dh*ae*||
> _I am sacrifice unto those Gursikhs who get up in the last quarter of night._



Hi Chaz ji

It helps me greatly to be able to see the Gurmukhi.  I am not fluent in the language and need the original letters to help me.  Without a Panna number I can't find it.  Can you (or someone else who knows) point me to the right ang, please?

Thanks
Treks


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## Ishna (Jul 9, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> What would your translation be for the following?
> 
> k*u*rab*aa*n*ee* th*i*nh*aa(n)* g*u*ras*i*kh*aa(n)* p*i*shhal r*aa*th*ee* o*u*t(h) beha(n)dh*ae*||
> _I am sacrifice unto those Gursikhs who get up in the last quarter of night._



It's okay, I found it.  It is one of Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaaran.  Full paurhi here: http://searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/vaar/12/pauri/2

Clearly the context here is about rising in the last quarter of the night.  It is followed by an instruction to bathe in the holy tank.  If he means the water surrounding Harmandir Sahib, we might all need to relocate to Amritsar   (j/k)

An interesting contrast to the above is what Gurbani itself says about the 'last quarter of the night', Pannas 74-78.


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## Original (Jul 9, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> What would your translation be for the following?
> 
> k*u*rab*aa*n*ee* th*i*nh*aa(n)* g*u*ras*i*kh*aa(n)* p*i*shhal r*aa*th*ee* o*u*t(h) beha(n)dh*ae*||
> _I am sacrifice unto those Gursikhs who get up in the last quarter of night._



Chaz Ji - good morning !

I'm feeling cnd [cool and deadly, a street term we used when I was young n handsome -  kabbadi days]. Using it here is to reflect my level of being n awareness par with yours, after Amrit Vela meditation. The poetic "rush" within is dying to express itself in a form without ? Let  Bhulla Shah be the architect therefore,.....*lakhaan voo'ha ta lakhaan vaar'ian nay* [numerous doors n windows in the city of Lahore]......*jerh'ian khoo'ian chu'an bhar gaya pani ashik ooee'oh meth'ian ta baaki khariyan nay *[those well's from whence the lovers have drunk are the sweet ones, the rest sour].

Moving on to the real deal, your text above, a full exposure of the shabd is necessary for completeness and accuracy sake. But on the given prose, I'd go along with the transliteration cited. To add, if I may, particularly Baba Nanak Ji, was always complimentary and appreciatative in expressing the greatness of those who wined n dined with God. Loads of Baba Ji's writings reflect the use of the word "qurban" [sacrifice]. Yes, in a round about way - I'll say, the writer is giving credence to "early risers".

Over 2 U -


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## Ishna (Jul 9, 2015)

Original said:


> Ishna Ji
> 
> Definitely a diamond of a word *[ਉਪਜੰਪਿ]. *What an interesting enterprise reading around for correct interpretation?
> <snip>



Thanks for your insight, Original Ji.

Upon closer inspection of this tuk, I wonder if the secret is in the Gurbani grammar.

*[ਉਪਜੰਪਿ] *is "*early dawn*" as a *noun*, and "*silently recite*" as a *verb*.

I do not know enough about Gurbani grammar to decipher it myself.  Can anyone shed any insight?  Or is it truly as you've  said, Original Ji, a syntactic ambiguity?

~~~~~

However, if we look at the entire paurhi, and paurhi two, an interesting pattern emerges, as highlighted in green:

*ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥*
_Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 1._
Gauree, First Mehl:

*ਰਾਮਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਕਾ ॥*
_Rām nām cẖiṯ rāpai jā kā._
One whose consciousness is permeated with the Lord's Name -

*ਉਪਜੰਪਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥੧॥*
_Upjamp ḏarsan kījai ṯā kā. ||1||_
receive the blessing of his darshan in the early light of dawn. ||1||

*ਰਾਮ ਨ ਜਪਹੁ ਅਭਾਗੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ ॥*
_Rām na japahu abẖāg ṯumārā._
If you do not meditate on the Lord, it is your own misfortune.

*ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਦਾਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥*
_Jug jug ḏāṯā parabẖ rām hamārā. ||1|| rahā▫o._
In each and every age, the Great Giver is my Lord God. ||1||Pause||

*ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਜਪੈ ਜਨੁ ਪੂਰਾ ॥*
_Gurmaṯ rām japai jan pūrā._
Following the Guru's Teachings, the perfect humble beings meditate on the Lord.

*ਤਿਤੁ ਘਟ ਅਨਹਤ ਬਾਜੇ ਤੂਰਾ ॥੨॥*
_Ŧiṯ gẖat anhaṯ bāje ṯūrā. ||2||_
Within their hearts, the unstruck melody vibrates. ||2||​
It really does seem to me that the overall theme is inward recitation.  Specifying a time of day appears inconsistent, in my humble opinion.


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## chazSingh (Jul 9, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Chaz ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...




The shabads on the other thread are complete as per sikhi to the max...


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## chazSingh (Jul 9, 2015)

Ishna said:


> It's okay, I found it.  It is one of Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaaran.  Full paurhi here: http://searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/vaar/12/pauri/2
> 
> Clearly the context here is about rising in the last quarter of the night.  It is followed by an instruction to bathe in the holy tank.  If he means the water surrounding Harmandir Sahib, we might all need to relocate to Amritsar   (j/k)
> 
> An interesting contrast to the above is what Gurbani itself says about the 'last quarter of the night', Pannas 74-78.




The holy tank is within you...
Gurbani states very clearly over and over...God is within you...everything you need to do is within you...all cleansing takes place within you 

i will find you countless shabads for this...

i cannot emphasize this enough.... on my own personal journey i have done simran, paat, contemplation etc etc during the day...and during the last quarter of the night. It is when i started to get up during this last quarter that things began to become very interesting...very interesting indeed. the universe opened up and i became an explorer, an explorer of life and beyond...all whilst sat on my living room sofa 

I love watching films like 'interstallar' they are so thought provoking...they challenge our very nature and existance...and inspire us to seek the truth....

but none of us will get a chance to sit in a space craft and explore...and the crazy and amazing thing is...we don;t even need to 

basically for me...it is very clear...without a seconds doubt...that this part of the day for us sikhs and any truth seeker... it is very important...
until the day comes when my Ego is dissolved and I am intoxicated throughout the whole day in which case amrit vela is then every moment...


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## chazSingh (Jul 9, 2015)

Ishna Ji,

Can gurbani be any clearer? for the lost souls entangled in Maya, why would Guru Ji distinguish parts of the day for us....if it wasn't important...why even mention it?

I really don;t know how clear and concise a shabad can be...how clear Guru Ji can be on this subject...it is wise to question and study...it is wiser to try and put into practice and see for yourself...



ਸਲੋਕ  ਮਃ  ੨  ॥
सलोक मः २ ॥
Salok mėhlā 2.
Shalok, Second Mehl:

ਅਠੀ  ਪਹਰੀ  ਅਠ  ਖੰਡ  ਨਾਵਾ  ਖੰਡੁ  ਸਰੀਰੁ  ॥
अठी पहरी अठ खंड नावा खंडु सरीरु ॥
Aṯẖī pahrī aṯẖ kẖand nāvā kẖand sarīr.
Twenty-four hours a day, destroy the eight things, and in the ninth place, conquer the body.

ਤਿਸੁ  ਵਿਚਿ  ਨਉ  ਨਿਧਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਏਕੁ  ਭਾਲਹਿ  ਗੁਣੀ  ਗਹੀਰੁ  ॥
तिसु विचि नउ निधि नामु एकु भालहि गुणी गहीरु ॥
Ŧis vicẖ na▫o niḏẖ nām ek bẖālėh guṇī gahīr.
Within the body are the nine treasures of the Name of the Lord-seek the depths of these virtues.

ਕਰਮਵੰਤੀ  ਸਾਲਾਹਿਆ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਕਰਿ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਪੀਰੁ  ॥
करमवंती सालाहिआ नानक करि गुरु पीरु ॥
Karamvanṯī salāhi▫ā Nānak kar gur pīr.
Those blessed with the karma of good actions praise the Lord. O Nanak, they make the Guru their spiritual teacher.

ਚਉਥੈ  ਪਹਰਿ  ਸਬਾਹ  ਕੈ  ਸੁਰਤਿਆ  ਉਪਜੈ  ਚਾਉ  ॥
चउथै पहरि सबाह कै सुरतिआ उपजै चाउ ॥
Cẖa▫uthai pahar sabāh kai surṯi▫ā upjai cẖā▫o.
I*n the fourth watch of the early morning hours, a longing arises in their higher consciousness*.

ਤਿਨਾ  ਦਰੀਆਵਾ  ਸਿਉ  ਦੋਸਤੀ  ਮਨਿ  ਮੁਖਿ  ਸਚਾ  ਨਾਉ  ॥
तिना दरीआवा सिउ दोसती मनि मुखि सचा नाउ ॥
Ŧinā ḏarī▫āvā si▫o ḏosṯī man mukẖ sacẖā nā▫o.
They are attuned to the river of life; the True Name is in their minds and on their lips.

ਓਥੈ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ  ਵੰਡੀਐ  ਕਰਮੀ  ਹੋਇ  ਪਸਾਉ  ॥
ओथै अम्रितु वंडीऐ करमी होइ पसाउ ॥
Othai amriṯ vandī▫ai karmī ho▫e pasā▫o.
The Ambrosial Nectar is distributed, and those with good karma receive this gift.

ਕੰਚਨ  ਕਾਇਆ  ਕਸੀਐ  ਵੰਨੀ  ਚੜੈ  ਚੜਾਉ  ॥
कंचन काइआ कसीऐ वंनी चड़ै चड़ाउ ॥
Kancẖan kā▫i▫ā kasī▫ai vannī cẖaṛai cẖaṛā▫o.
Their bodies become golden, and take on the color of spirituality.

ਜੇ  ਹੋਵੈ  ਨਦਰਿ  ਸਰਾਫ  ਕੀ  ਬਹੁੜਿ  ਨ  ਪਾਈ  ਤਾਉ  ॥
जे होवै नदरि सराफ की बहुड़ि न पाई ताउ ॥
Je hovai naḏar sarāf kī bahuṛ na pā▫ī ṯā▫o.
If the Jeweler casts His Glance of Grace, they are not placed in the fire again.

ਸਤੀ  ਪਹਰੀ  ਸਤੁ  ਭਲਾ  ਬਹੀਐ  ਪੜਿਆ  ਪਾਸਿ  ॥
सती पहरी सतु भला बहीऐ पड़िआ पासि ॥
Saṯī pahrī saṯ bẖalā bahī▫ai paṛi▫ā pās.
*Throughout the other seven watches of the day, it is good to speak the Truth, and sit with the spiritually wise.*

ਓਥੈ  ਪਾਪੁ  ਪੁੰਨੁ  ਬੀਚਾਰੀਐ  ਕੂੜੈ  ਘਟੈ  ਰਾਸਿ  ॥
ओथै पापु पुंनु बीचारीऐ कूड़ै घटै रासि ॥
Othai pāp punn bīcẖārī▫ai kūrhai gẖatai rās.
There, vice and virtue are distinguished, and the capital of falsehood is decreased.

ਓਥੈ  ਖੋਟੇ  ਸਟੀਅਹਿ  ਖਰੇ  ਕੀਚਹਿ  ਸਾਬਾਸਿ  ॥
ओथै खोटे सटीअहि खरे कीचहि साबासि ॥
Othai kẖote satī▫ah kẖare kīcẖėh sābās.
There, the counterfeit are cast aside, and the genuine are cheered.

ਬੋਲਣੁ  ਫਾਦਲੁ  ਨਾਨਕਾ  ਦੁਖੁ  ਸੁਖੁ  ਖਸਮੈ  ਪਾਸਿ  ॥੧॥
बोलणु फादलु नानका दुखु सुखु खसमै पासि ॥१॥
Bolaṇ fāḏal nānkā ḏukẖ sukẖ kẖasmai pās. ||1||
Speech is vain and useless. O Nanak, pain and pleasure are in the power of our Lord and Master. ||1||


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## Original (Jul 9, 2015)

Ishna said:


> Thanks for your insight, Original Ji.
> 
> Upon closer inspection of this tuk, I wonder if the secret is in the Gurbani grammar.
> 
> ...



...And, I second your opinion. Why? Because the reader [you] is in a predicament and must accordingly take the whole shabd together, which when taken and acted upon is by n large found to be inconsistent. As a result, you're given the latitude with which the grammatical and ordinary sense of the words may be modified.

In my earlier communication I went along to introduce a "value judgment necessity" for a very particular purpose. Take for example, you n Chaz, one giving weight to the noun and the other to the verb. The adjudicator having considered the wider and the narrow interpretation will be invited to look at all the circumstantial evidence placed before him/her and then deliver a subjective and not an objective ruling. What's that ? Consider the following, "meet you at the bank for 3pm" says Harry to Tejwant. Tejwant shows up at the local commercial bank on the high street at 3, whilst Harry with his fishing gear awaits Telwant's arrival on the banks of River Thames. These kind of ambiguities gives birth to what we call "circumstantial eveidence" and the proper construction is left to the decision maker, you n Chaz.

Using a *value judgement *to tip the balance is necessary. Let's see why *?*, Take for example, you n Chaz sharing a 2 bedroom flat with one kitchen, all the utilities, pots, pans etc. but "1" cup between the two. Say one evening after work you both walk in together and you see the empty cup in the kitchen. An immediate grasp by the mind of the empty cup signals a hot beverage [you], equally for Chaz, seeing the cup empty, mind mellows with a soft juice. Therefore, the "value" of the cup at that "particular" moment in time lay in its emptiness. Using that as a yard stick, the adjudicator will take into account the significance and not the literal of *ਉਪਜੰਪਿ *in giving it effect, which in this case would be "silent utterance", the value being "reciting". Although, both noun n verb speak of the one, but are at variance with one another is seen to be subjective. And, since this is not a matter of law nor fact, but one of interpretation it's down to you n Chaz for both you will not be "wrong".

My personal take on the whole matter is that Professor Sahib Singh gave it a value rather than the literal meaning for he relied on the "religious" more than the literal significance within the "wider" context of the meaning of the word when up for construction.

Forgive me for errors or exclusions or confusions - rushed it a bit, sorry !


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## Ishna (Jul 9, 2015)

@chazSingh , Original Ji makes a very good point in post #13 above.  I guess this entire issue for us is a matter of our own subjective judgement.

You say:


			
				Chaz Ji said:
			
		

> I really don;t know how clear and concise a shabad can be...how clear Guru Ji can be on this subject...it is wise to question and study...it is wiser to try and put into practice and see for yourself...



The same thought went through my mind when you quoted a tuk from ang 1383 in your thread about amrit vela.  It is clear that the shabad is talking about the quarters of a person's whole life, and imploring on to "wake up" to Guru Ji before it's too late and they die.

Coming back to the shabad you posted above (which is from ang 146, incidentally  ), I read the whole page, and the page before it, and a number of the shabads make a point of keeping Creator in mind at all times, 24 hours a day, constantly.  I'm not convinced that the bani would just suddenly switch from metaphor to literal instruction just like that.

While I was reading, I saw this shabad (starts at the bottom of ang 145).  How is the first line translated to include 'early hours'?  Also, it seems to be suggesting that the early morning rise is useless - constant remembrance is the key.

*ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥*
_Salok mėhlā 1._
Shalok, First Mehl:

*ਸਬਾਹੀ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਜਿਨੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਇਕ ਮਨਿ ॥*
_Sabāhī sālāh jinī ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā ik man._
Those who praise the Lord in the early hours of the morning and meditate on Him single-mindedly,

*ਸੇਈ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਾਹ ਵਖਤੈ ਉਪਰਿ ਲੜਿ ਮੁਏ ॥*
_Se▫ī pūre sāh vakẖ▫ṯai upar laṛ mu▫e._
are the perfect kings; at the right time, they die fighting.

*ਦੂਜੈ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਰਾਹ ਮਨ ਕੀਆ ਮਤੀ ਖਿੰਡੀਆ ॥*
_Ḏūjai bahuṯe rāh man kī▫ā maṯī kẖindī▫ā._
In the second watch, the focus of the mind is scattered in all sorts of ways.

*ਬਹੁਤੁ ਪਏ ਅਸਗਾਹ ਗੋਤੇ ਖਾਹਿ ਨ ਨਿਕਲਹਿ ॥*
_Bahuṯ pa▫e asgāh goṯe kẖāhi na niklahi._
So many fall into the bottomless pit; they are dragged under, and they cannot get out again.

*ਤੀਜੈ ਮੁਹੀ ਗਿਰਾਹ ਭੁਖ ਤਿਖਾ ਦੁਇ ਭਉਕੀਆ ॥*
_Ŧījai muhī girāh bẖukẖ ṯikẖā ḏu▫e bẖa▫ukī▫ā._
In the third watch, both hunger and thirst bark for attention, and food is put into the mouth.

*ਖਾਧਾ ਹੋਇ ਸੁਆਹ ਭੀ ਖਾਣੇ ਸਿਉ ਦੋਸਤੀ ॥*
_Kẖāḏẖā ho▫e su▫āh bẖī kẖāṇe si▫o ḏosṯī._
That which is eaten becomes dust, but they are still attached to eating.

*ਚਉਥੈ ਆਈ ਊਂਘ ਅਖੀ ਮੀਟਿ ਪਵਾਰਿ ਗਇਆ ॥*
_Cẖa▫uthai ā▫ī ūŉgẖ akẖī mīt pavār ga▫i▫ā._
In the fourth watch, they become drowsy. They close their eyes and begin to dream.

*ਭੀ ਉਠਿ ਰਚਿਓਨੁ ਵਾਦੁ ਸੈ ਵਰ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆ ਕੀ ਪਿੜ ਬਧੀ ॥*
_Bẖī uṯẖ racẖi▫on vāḏ sai varėh▫ā kī piṛ baḏẖī._
Rising up again, they engage in conflicts; they set the stage as if they will live for 100 years.

*ਸਭੇ ਵੇਲਾ ਵਖਤ ਸਭਿ ਜੇ ਅਠੀ ਭਉ ਹੋਇ ॥*
_Sabẖe velā vakẖaṯ sabẖ je aṯẖī bẖa▫o ho▫e._
If at all times, at each and every moment, they live in the fear of God -

*ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਵਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥*
_Nānak sāhib man vasai sacẖā nāvaṇ ho▫e. ||1||_
O Nanak, the Lord dwells within their minds, and their cleansing bath is true. ||1||​
Many thanks.

PS. I changed the thread heading so it is broader.


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## chazSingh (Jul 9, 2015)

Ishna said:


> @chazSingh , Original Ji makes a very good point in post #13 above.  I guess this entire issue for us is a matter of our own subjective judgement.
> 
> You say:
> 
> ...




ishna,

you wrote "

*The same thought went through my mind when you quoted a tuk from ang 1383 in your thread about amrit vela.  It is clear that the shabad is talking about the quarters of a person's whole life, and imploring on to "wake up" to Guru Ji before it's too late and they die.

Coming back to the shabad you posted above (which is from ang 146, incidentally  ), I read the whole page, and the page before it, and a number of the shabads make a point of keeping Creator in mind at all times, 24 hours a day, constantly.  I'm not convinced that the bani would just suddenly switch from metaphor to literal instruction just like that. "*

how does Pishal Raath n jageoo" translate to 4 quarters of ones life  that is a strange one.

Also, why would Guru ji not want us to think of waheguru 24/7.....so in some shabads Guru ji makes a point we should have waheguru in mind all the time....but also references Amrit Vela as a certain point in time where we are able to rise to a higher consciousness which is not possible in a busy day to day life...

why ignore these lines of shabad? Guru Ji can quite easily tell us to do both.....have god in mind 24/7, but to also do amrit vela in the early hours...chauthai pahar....

even in this shabad, taking it to mean four quarters of ones life doesn't make sense...why wait for the last quarter for the longing to arise...? makes no sense at all...what of the child that lives until he's 10...?


चउथै पहरि सबाह कै सुरतिआ उपजै चाउ ॥
Cẖa▫uthai pahar sabāh kai surṯi▫ā upjai cẖā▫o.
I*n the fourth watch of the early morning hours, a longing arises in their higher consciousness*.


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## chazSingh (Jul 9, 2015)

Can someone translate the following verse?

far*ee*dh*aa* p*i*shhal r*aa*th n j*aa*g*i*ouh*i* j*ee*vadharr*o* m*u*e*i*ouh*i* ||

in one of bhai gurdaas ji's vaars he uses the same terminology

ipCl rwqIN jwgxw nwmu dwnu iesnwnu idVwey] p*i*shhal r*aa*th*ee*(n) j*aa*gan*aa* n*aa*m dh*aa*n e*i*san*aa*n dh*i*rr*aa*e*ae*||
_The Sikh awakes in the pre-dawn hour and meditating upon Naam, he becomes alert for ablution and charity._

what is this peshal raath? what is the translation...

can it really be referring to the the four quarters of a persons life like ishna Ji stated...?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 9, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> The shabads on the other thread are complete as per sikhi to the max...



Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

If you check yourself and I know your keen interest as a Sikh,they are incomplete.

As a keen Sikh yourself with more thirst than most of us here, what is your personal opinion about the completeness of the Shabads?

Your cooperation for the sake of the newcomers here, either as guests and/or as new members, would be highly appreciated because all of us here are one family and thus it becomes our duty to show clarity to our new family members so they feel welcomed.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 9, 2015)

Ishna said:


> To be honest, I don't find any particular focus on pre-dawn/dawn activities in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. When used, the term 'amrit vela' is not defined. "Amrit" means something like 'sweet/ambrosial' and "vela" means "time". In Guru Ji's lifetime, the phrase 'amrit vela' was commonly used to describe pre-dawn, so today we assume that is what Guru Ji meant.


Yes I agree with you and this is what guru sahib is trying to say in,   'ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ Your message and justice is true and If I live according to this message twenty four hours of my life becomes amrit velya - sweet and sehj, thus guru sahib is not giving any auspious certificate to morning time but says, ' ਓਹ ਬੇਲਾ ਕਉ ਹਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਜਪੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ when I am able to imbibe your wisdom in my heart, I am sacrifice to that time.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 9, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> Yes I agree with you and this is what guru sahib is trying to say in,   'ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ Your message and justice is true and If I live according to this message twenty four hours of my life becomes amrit velya - sweet and sehj, thus guru sahib is not giving any auspious certificate to morning time but says, ' ਓਹ ਬੇਲਾ ਕਉ ਹਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਜਪੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ when I am able to imbibe your wisdom in my heart, I am sacrifice to that time.



Japjishah ji,

Guru fateh.

I know that we come to the same topic of Amrit Vela again and again which is the right thing to do because we evolve with time and this self evolving is the underlying meaning of Nitnem.

My question is what Vela-Time in Gurbani is not for Amrit- Nectar ( practicing Gurbani through its understanding, if Amrit Vela is only considered the early hours by many?

As Sikhi is an ever evolving way of life and we live in 24/7 world, how about those devout Sikhs who are on graveyard shifts, night shifts, traveling at odd hours by cars, by planes, Ferries etc. etc.?

How about their Amrit Vela, one should ask oneself? Why this blatant attempt of segregation towards them?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## chazSingh (Jul 9, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Japjishah ji,
> 
> Guru fateh.
> 
> ...



Blatant attempt at segregation lol lol

Are you one of those Sikhs?. If not you have no excuse ji...utilise amrita vela while you can. Just like when I worked night shifts...I did my simran during the day...or when my shift finished...and now I work during the day i.m making the most out of this opportunity to wake up in the early hours

Come on please...this is a journey...not a short stroll. Life will challenge...these kind of comments have no worth. If your love is there you will find a way...waheguru will help you if you really want it.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 9, 2015)

Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.



> Blatant attempt at segregation *lol lol*



You may giggle till your tummy hurts but  we are having a serious discussion here.



> Are you one of those Sikhs?. If not you have no excuse ji...utilise amrita vela while you can. Just like when I worked night shifts...I did my simran during the day...or when my shift finished...and now I work during the day i.m making the most out of this opportunity to wake up in the early hours



Please stop speculating on others' Sikhi journey. It is not what a Sikh maketh. Thanks for admitting that you want to impose your way of Sikhi unto others because you consider Amrit Vela as the early hours in the morning.

I also thank you for showing your disregard towards other seekers' lives and what they have to go through for their Kirat-one of 3 basic tenets of Sikhi- to put food on the table for their families because for you, meaning of Amrit Vela is chiseled in stone by you with your personal  chisel and hammer. It is a shame indeed to treat other Sikhs in this manner. It is either your way or highway.

Chaz Singh ji, your personal zeal to be "the true Sikh" while disregarding others' quest shows a lot more about you and I appreciate your candor which proves my point of segregation and you are honestly clear about it, the latter is a great trait to cultivate btw.



> Come on please...this is a journey...not a short stroll. Life will challenge...these kind of comments have no worth. If your love is there you will find a way...waheguru will help you if you really want it.



I totally agree with you that *"this is a journey...not a short stroll". *Please allow others to dance through this Sikhi journey of theirs with their own inner orchestras not imposing your own 2 step dance unto them.This is not any TV show like "Dancing with the stars" or "Can you dance"?

I would urge you to let them take their own personal journey as they wish to as you are taking yours.



> *Are you one of those Sikhs?*



Fortunately, I am not but I know many who are.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 9, 2015)

Come on Chaz Ji 

I placed my post strictly on gurbani. If you think my interpretation or understanding is wrong, please come with your interpretation. Gurbani is very logical. Let us not become dum dum like:


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## Harry Haller (Jul 9, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Fortunately, I am not but I know many who are.



I on the other hand am, insomnia rules my life, so I keep very strange hours, I normally open my shop between 4-6am, which is actually Amrit Vela according to you, sure its peaceful, sure its nice, but in my opinion, having a knife pulled on you at 3pm in the afternoon by a drug crazed junkie is also Amrit Vela, in fact, I think it is more Amrit Vela than when there is nothing going on, its easy to be a Sikh when there is nothing going on, its hard trying to be a Sikh in the storm, but the storm is where its at


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## chazSingh (Jul 9, 2015)

Looks like I have been a naughty little boy. 

Anyway back to the subject Tejwant ji.
There is a shbad I posted at 4.05pm. It would be great to get your view on it.

I have asked for clarification on a specific line of it of which no one has yet replied. If you could please assist with that also.

It won't take long. Look forward to your reply. God bless


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## chazSingh (Jul 9, 2015)

Japji sahib please if you can also let us have your translation of the shbad I posted. Saves the rest of us from being dumb like.

Look forward to your reply.

God bless


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 9, 2015)

Chaz Singh ji,
Guru Fateh.



> Looks like I have been a naughty little boy.



Being naughty  is not the part of this thread. What you do in your private life is your life. No one has the right to interfere in that. This is a serious subject which demands respect from all of us. Sikhi is all about caring for all humankind. It not about dwelling  in one's own self created cocoon hoping one day to come out like a fluttering butterfly. Only dwelling in Gurmat cocoon one may become fortunate for that leap.



> I have asked for clarification on a specific line of it of which no one has yet replied. If you could please assist with that also.



I would love to share my thoughts about it but before I delve  into that, please  share your personal meaning of the verses you do understand and do not forget to write the page number.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Original (Jul 9, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Can someone translate the following verse?
> 
> far*ee*dh*aa* p*i*shhal r*aa*th n j*aa*g*i*ouh*i* j*ee*vadharr*o* m*u*e*i*ouh*i* ||
> 
> ...



*ਫਰੀਦਾ ਿਪਛਲਿ ਰਾਿਤ ਨ ਜਾਗਿੳਿਹ ਜੀਵਦੜੋ ਮੁਿੲੳਿਹ ।। ਜੇ ਤੈ ਰਬੁ ਿਵਸਾਿਰਆ ਤ ਰਬਿ ਨ ਿਵਸਰਿੳਹਿ ।i

*
Literal interpretation - Farida last phase of the night [*ਪਛਲਿ ਰਾਿਤ, *Amrit Vela]
                                 - you do not  wake [*ਨ ਜਾਗਿੳਿਹ], *consider _that a _death 
                                 - whilst alive
                                 - You may have forgotten God but not He, God 
                                 - Lord  forgets you.

Baba Fraid places lot of emphasis on waking up at AV, for those who don't wake at AV are said to have missed the plot.


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 10, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Japji sahib please if you can also let us have your translation of the shbad I posted. Saves the rest of us from being dumb like.


 Are your referring to 'ਫਰੀਦਾ ਪਿਛਲ ਰਾਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਗਿਓਹਿ ਜੀਵਦੜੋ ਮੁਇਓਹਿ ॥ ਜੇ ਤੈ ਰਬੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਤ ਰਬਿ ਨ ਵਿਸਰਿਓਹਿ ॥੧੦੭॥  where ever clarification was required to bhagatan dee baani, guru sahib have intervened and added their sabd after it. Please read till stanza 113 and you will notice ਪਿਛਲ ਰਾਤਿ does not stand for early morning,  but to awaken from slumber and listen to the truth.


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## Ishna (Jul 10, 2015)

I backtracked to the start of Baba Fareed Ji's shaloks towards the end of panna 1377 and read through to the end at the bottom of panna 1384.  I urge everyone to read them, because it is a timely reminder for us all, and your soul will soar with the updraft of this sweet Gurbani.

This is the picture that emerged _*for me personally*_, which shows how I come to the conclusion that I do, regarding Fareed's mention of waking before dawn:

Our death is inevitable, so be spiritually alert.
Life is full of worldly distractions.
Hindsight won't help you, you have been warned.  Don't make excuses.
So, conduct yourself fairly, now is the time to do good deeds.
If you don't, you'll suddenly find yourself old with no good deeds in the bank.
Remember Guru while you're young, because if you don't, you're unlikely to when you're old.
Remember now, and Guru will be with you always.
Be humble, look for Guru within.
Guru's path might seem hard, but worldly luxury is false poison.
There is no rest (in the life-night) for the soul-bride in separation from Guru.
*ਫਰੀਦਾ ਚਿੰਤ ਖਟੋਲਾ ਵਾਣੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਬਿਰਹਿ ਵਿਛਾਵਣ ਲੇਫੁ ॥*
_Farīḏā cẖinṯ kẖatolā vāṇ ḏukẖ birėh vicẖẖāvaṇ lef._
Fareed, anxiety is my bed, pain is my mattress, and the pain of separation is my blanket and quilt.
*ਏਹੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਜੀਵਣਾ ਤੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸਚੇ ਵੇਖੁ ॥੩੫॥*
_Ėhu hamārā jīvṇā ṯū sāhib sacẖe vekẖ. ||35||_
Behold, this is my life, O my True Lord and Master. ||35||
Ang 1379​Lives are wasted in pain without Guru.
Fareed finds himself old and facing death, longing for Guru.
People might have loads of worldly luxury but will still die, and it will be worse for them.
Pain awaits those, even the ones who look pure on the outside, if they are dark on the inside.
Fear "God", don't be greedy.
Search inwardly for Guru, not outwardly.
Fareed again find himself old and facing death, longing for Guru.  He laments that he spent his youth in worldliness.
He says he is asleep to his Husband-Lord, his days are passing away thus.
Always remember death is coming for you.
Forget about wasting your time doing anything that doesn't bring your closer to Guru.
Don't waste your chance, or you'll regret it.
We will all die, and be dead for ages and ages.
It is not good to live badly.  Get up now and pray.  You're as good as dead if you don't.
Life is hard, but be a good person.
We are a guest, and the morning is coming - get ready to leave. [shalok 79]
You don't collect musk sleeping through your life-night.
Life is hard, but blessed, if you Love Guru.
Remain alert, focus on Guru even through pain of life.
Fareed again graphically reminds us of inevitable death.
Dedicate yourself to Guru, because you *will *die, even though you think you are immortal.
What you do now in life will be taken to account.
You can die at any time.
Fareed is a sacrifice to those birds who do not leave Guru's side.
Fareed has searched everywhere in the world but still doesn't find Guru.
Nanak reminds him that Guru can be found in the mind.
Those proud of wealth and youth will go empty handed.
They suffer by forgetting Naam.
*ਫਰੀਦਾ ਪਿਛਲ ਰਾਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਗਿਓਹਿ ਜੀਵਦੜੋ ਮੁਇਓਹਿ ॥*
_Farīḏā picẖẖal rāṯ na jāgi▫ohi jīvaḏ▫ṛo mu▫i▫ohi._
Fareed, if you do not awaken in the early hours before dawn, you are dead while yet alive.
*ਜੇ ਤੈ ਰਬੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਤ ਰਬਿ ਨ ਵਿਸਰਿਓਹਿ ॥੧੦੭॥*
_Je ṯai rab visāri▫ā ṯa rab na visari▫ohi. ||107||_
Although you have forgotten God, God has not forgotten you. ||107|
Ang 1383​Guru is wonderful, keep It in your heart, instead of the world.
Youth brings flowers, old age brings fruit.
Remain awake (alert to Guru) throughout your life-night to receive Gurus gifts.
Be patient, look within, find Guru.
Life is difficult, but don't be distracted by luxury.
Take care of your body.
Don't be fooled or trapped by life's charms.
To attract Guru, be humble, forgiving, and mild-mannered.
Guru is within everyone, so be nice to everyone.


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## chazSingh (Jul 10, 2015)

Original said:


> *ਫਰੀਦਾ ਿਪਛਲਿ ਰਾਿਤ ਨ ਜਾਗਿੳਿਹ ਜੀਵਦੜੋ ਮੁਿੲੳਿਹ ।। ਜੇ ਤੈ ਰਬੁ ਿਵਸਾਿਰਆ ਤ ਰਬਿ ਨ ਿਵਸਰਿੳਹਿ ।i
> 
> *
> Literal interpretation - Farida last phase of the night [*ਪਛਲਿ ਰਾਿਤ, *Amrit Vela]
> ...



Thank you very much Original Ji...

you ask a simple question about a very simple verse...and the non amrit vela crew start to side step the question. My good friend keep up your bhagti...

god bless


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## chazSingh (Jul 10, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Chaz Singh ji,
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> 
> ...




Tejwant ji.

this is 'you' 100% ... i don;t expect anything more.


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## Ishna (Jul 10, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Thank you very much Original Ji...
> 
> you ask a simple question about a very simple verse...and the non amrit vela crew start to side step the question. My good friend keep up your bhagti...
> 
> ...



I am respecting your thread,  Chaz Ji.  Please respect mine.

Many thanks.


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## chazSingh (Jul 10, 2015)

Ishna said:


> @chazSingh , Original Ji makes a very good point in post #13 above.  I guess this entire issue for us is a matter of our own subjective judgement.
> 
> You say:
> 
> ...




Ishna Ji

as always i respect your views on all subject matters concerning sikhi...
and i thank you for finding this wonderful amazing shabad which i have never come across before....it is very enlightening.

But

1. *you state it seems to suggest the early morning rise is useless*
    to requote the verse:
    Those who praise the Lord in the early hours of the morning and meditate on Him single-mindedly, are the perfect kings; at the right time, 
    they die fighting.
*Can you clarify how Guru Ji after stating they are the perfect kings...and they die fighting...actually meant what they do is useless...very eager to understand your reasoning on this? *

2. *I understand you are and have been against Amrit vela being a particular portion of the day from past threads etc. But i don't understand how you have come up to your conclusion on this shabad???*

    Those who praise the Lord in the early hours of the morning and meditate on Him single-mindedly,
    are the perfect kings; at the right time, they die fighting.
    In the second watch, the focus of the mind is scattered in all sorts of ways.
    So many fall into the bottomless pit; they are dragged under, and they cannot get out again.
    In the third watch, both hunger and thirst bark for attention, and food is put into the mouth
    That which is eaten becomes dust, but they are still attached to eating.
    In the fourth watch, they become drowsy. They close their eyes and begin to dream
    Rising up again, they engage in conflicts; they set the stage as if they will live for 100 years.
    If at all times, at each and every moment, they live in the fear of God -
   O Nanak, the Lord dwells within their minds, and their cleansing bath is true. ||1||

*it is without doubt absolutely clear*, that the *first watch* as described in the shabad is when the gurmuks are up early doing amrit vela...
the *second watch and third watch* is when the majority wake up from their sleep and their *minds starts working in a million directions*. they get dragged under this *bottomless pit*, over eating, getting up to all sorts...
then the *fourth watch they go to sleep and start dreaming again. and so the cycle continues.*

*BUT, for the one that is up during the first watch (Amrit Vela), they are the perfect kings...they Die Fighting...meaning...they fight the mind as it starts to drift in a million directions...they fight Ego, Lust, Anger Desire and Greed throughout the waking day whilst the rest fall into the bottomless pit. they DIE FIGHTING*

to me, here, on this occasion, you have just tried to bend the shabad to fit what you personally believe. Just my opinion.

your thoughts please

God Bless


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## chazSingh (Jul 10, 2015)

Ishna said:


> I am respecting your thread,  Chaz Ji.  Please respect mine.
> 
> Many thanks.



Ishna Ji, in what way am i not respecting your thread...you started a thread for a discussion asking for peoples views? mine is for people that are doing amrit vela as per certain part of the day then living the rest of the day with God in mind and in truthful deeds...or atleast trying to 

whereas your thread is for general views, opinions and discussion...so where have i not respected your thread?

God Bless


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## Ishna (Jul 10, 2015)

Chaz Ji

Your post #30 gives the impression of disrespect, imho.

Thanks


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## chazSingh (Jul 10, 2015)

*God in Mind 24/7*

I feel compelled to repost a shabad i posted above...which i feel describes how we can have God in mind 24/7... The shabad for me, states

*1.* the importance of Amrit Vela Simran/Contemplation etc.
*2. *and then goes on to describe what we must do through the rest of the Day ... making up the *24/7* i.e. do truthful deeds, sit with like minded people and do *vichar*...and this can be anything like...sharing with the needy...discussing on forum sikhi topics...etc etc.

This goes very close to being 24/7... during my 24 hours in a day...I am sleeping for 4-5 hours max, the rest is my usual wakeful life...and 2-3 hours during Amrit vela.

*The avarage person will sleep between 6 and 9 hours in a day, then they are straight into their busy hectic life. so personally i fail to see how they can have god in mind 24/7*

*Has any other Amrit Vela practicing sikhs ever had their simran continue during their sleep? i often can hear 'waheuguru' whilst i am sleeping...*

ਸਲੋਕ  ਮਃ  ੨  ॥
सलोक मः २ ॥
Salok mėhlā 2.
Shalok, Second Mehl:
ਅਠੀ  ਪਹਰੀ  ਅਠ  ਖੰਡ  ਨਾਵਾ  ਖੰਡੁ  ਸਰੀਰੁ  ॥
अठी पहरी अठ खंड नावा खंडु सरीरु ॥
Aṯẖī pahrī aṯẖ kẖand nāvā kẖand sarīr.
*Twenty-four hours a day, destroy the eight things, and in the ninth place, conquer the body.*
ਤਿਸੁ  ਵਿਚਿ  ਨਉ  ਨਿਧਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਏਕੁ  ਭਾਲਹਿ  ਗੁਣੀ  ਗਹੀਰੁ  ॥
तिसु विचि नउ निधि नामु एकु भालहि गुणी गहीरु ॥
Ŧis vicẖ na▫o niḏẖ nām ek bẖālėh guṇī gahīr.
Within the body are the nine treasures of the Name of the Lord-seek the depths of these virtues.
ਕਰਮਵੰਤੀ  ਸਾਲਾਹਿਆ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਕਰਿ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਪੀਰੁ  ॥
करमवंती सालाहिआ नानक करि गुरु पीरु ॥
Karamvanṯī salāhi▫ā Nānak kar gur pīr.
Those blessed with the karma of good actions praise the Lord. O Nanak, they make the Guru their spiritual teacher.
ਚਉਥੈ  ਪਹਰਿ  ਸਬਾਹ  ਕੈ  ਸੁਰਤਿਆ  ਉਪਜੈ  ਚਾਉ  ॥
चउथै पहरि सबाह कै सुरतिआ उपजै चाउ ॥
Cẖa▫uthai pahar sabāh kai surṯi▫ā upjai cẖā▫o.
*In the fourth watch of the early morning hours, a longing arises in their higher consciousness.*
ਤਿਨਾ  ਦਰੀਆਵਾ  ਸਿਉ  ਦੋਸਤੀ  ਮਨਿ  ਮੁਖਿ  ਸਚਾ  ਨਾਉ  ॥
तिना दरीआवा सिउ दोसती मनि मुखि सचा नाउ ॥
Ŧinā ḏarī▫āvā si▫o ḏosṯī man mukẖ sacẖā nā▫o.
*They are attuned to the river of life; the True Name is in their minds and on their lips.*
ਓਥੈ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ  ਵੰਡੀਐ  ਕਰਮੀ  ਹੋਇ  ਪਸਾਉ  ॥
ओथै अम्रितु वंडीऐ करमी होइ पसाउ ॥
Othai amriṯ vandī▫ai karmī ho▫e pasā▫o.
*The Ambrosial Nectar is distributed, and those with good karma receive this gift.*
ਕੰਚਨ  ਕਾਇਆ  ਕਸੀਐ  ਵੰਨੀ  ਚੜੈ  ਚੜਾਉ  ॥
कंचन काइआ कसीऐ वंनी चड़ै चड़ाउ ॥
Kancẖan kā▫i▫ā kasī▫ai vannī cẖaṛai cẖaṛā▫o.
*Their bodies become golden, and take on the color of spirituality.*
ਜੇ  ਹੋਵੈ  ਨਦਰਿ  ਸਰਾਫ  ਕੀ  ਬਹੁੜਿ  ਨ  ਪਾਈ  ਤਾਉ  ॥
जे होवै नदरि सराफ की बहुड़ि न पाई ताउ ॥
Je hovai naḏar sarāf kī bahuṛ na pā▫ī ṯā▫o.
If the Jeweler casts His Glance of Grace, they are not placed in the fire again.
ਸਤੀ  ਪਹਰੀ  ਸਤੁ  ਭਲਾ  ਬਹੀਐ  ਪੜਿਆ  ਪਾਸਿ  ॥
सती पहरी सतु भला बहीऐ पड़िआ पासि ॥
Saṯī pahrī saṯ bẖalā bahī▫ai paṛi▫ā pās.
*Throughout the other seven watches of the day, it is good to speak the Truth, and sit with the spiritually wise.*
ਓਥੈ  ਪਾਪੁ  ਪੁੰਨੁ  ਬੀਚਾਰੀਐ  ਕੂੜੈ  ਘਟੈ  ਰਾਸਿ  ॥
ओथै पापु पुंनु बीचारीऐ कूड़ै घटै रासि ॥
Othai pāp punn bīcẖārī▫ai kūrhai gẖatai rās.
*There, vice and virtue are distinguished, and the capital of falsehood is decreased.*
ਓਥੈ  ਖੋਟੇ  ਸਟੀਅਹਿ  ਖਰੇ  ਕੀਚਹਿ  ਸਾਬਾਸਿ  ॥
ओथै खोटे सटीअहि खरे कीचहि साबासि ॥
Othai kẖote satī▫ah kẖare kīcẖėh sābās.
There, the counterfeit are cast aside, and the genuine are cheered.
ਬੋਲਣੁ  ਫਾਦਲੁ  ਨਾਨਕਾ  ਦੁਖੁ  ਸੁਖੁ  ਖਸਮੈ  ਪਾਸਿ  ॥੧॥
बोलणु फादलु नानका दुखु सुखु खसमै पासि ॥१॥
Bolaṇ fāḏal nānkā ḏukẖ sukẖ kẖasmai pās. ||1||
Speech is vain and useless. O Nanak, pain and pleasure are in the power of our Lord and Master. ||1||

*The AMbroisial Nectar is distributed at this time (Amrit Vela)...a longing arises in the higher consciousness...bodies become golden...*
and then for the rest of the wakeful day:
*speak the truth, do truthful deeds, share with the needy, do vichar, contemplate...have god in mind always and in every deed.*

*This makes up the 24/7 of the truth seeker who is still stuck in Maya (like me) for the sikh that no longer wants to just believe or have faith...but wants to* *KNOW* *FOR REAL*...

This in my humble opinions is the solution put forward by Guru Ji.

God Bless all


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## Ishna (Jul 10, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Ishna Ji
> 
> as always i respect your views on all subject matters concerning sikhi...
> and i thank you for finding this wonderful amazing shabad which i have never come across before....it is very enlightening.
> ...



Chaz Ji

Thank you for providing another perspective of this shabad (starts at the bottom of panna 145).  I had not considered that the perfect kings who die fighting are not the same people who go astray in the second, third and fourth watches of the day.

Here are my thoughts on the shabad, which leads to my own understanding of it:

The first shalok describes people who remember Guru in the morning, but forget It during the day, as they are distracted by life.  Those people die fighting their thieves in the world.  The paurhi ends with a reminder to keep to Fear of God in mind at all times.

The second shalok (near the top of panna 146) has a totally different tone.  It starts by saying the perfect kings are imbued with Love twenty-four hours a day.

The paurhi at the end doesn't mention time at all.​
So for me personally, the focus of the shabad is on remembering Guru at all times, not one specific time.

However, the next shabad, #18, has me intrigued.  You have already mentioned it, here or in your other thread, so I will be contemplating it and look forward to further discussion with you about it.  EDIT:  Incidentally, it was the one you posted above, which I didn't see until after I posted this message. 

Thanks


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## chazSingh (Jul 10, 2015)

Ishna said:


> Chaz Ji
> 
> Thank you for providing another perspective on the shabad.  I had not read it from the perspective that the 'perfect kings' who die in battle are not the same people as described in the following tuks of that paurhi.
> 
> ...




so they are perfect...but not really perfect....they die fighting...but always fail....so are perfect in the sense they die trying...but not perfect because they fail to rememeber god 24/7...

but the one who sleep during the night...wakes up and falls into the bottomless pit anyway...somehow managed to remember god 24/7 even though he/she is stuck in dreams for a third of the day..

Guru Ji!!!! why call them perfect KINGS then!...you are confusing us and we are wasting precious time wondering what you are saying..


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## Ishna (Jul 10, 2015)

I'm confused now, too.  *re-reads the shabad*


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## Ishna (Jul 10, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> so they are perfect...but not really perfect....they die fighting...but always fail....so are perfect in the sense they die trying...but not perfect because they fail to rememeber god 24/7...
> 
> but the one who sleep during the night...wakes up and falls into the bottomless pit anyway...somehow managed to remember god 24/7 even though he/she is stuck in dreams for a third of the day..
> 
> makes perfect sense now? or not perfect sense...arrrgh....confused....or am i really not consufed...? Guru ji really has a way with words...or does he...



I think what the shabad is describing is people who fail (in the first shalok) and people who succeed (in the second shalok).  But I am no expert, just sharing the impression I get.  I don't think the entire message of the shabad can be gleaned from one tuk.

Also, I asked a question earlier, about how the first line:

*ਸਬਾਹੀ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਜਿਨੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਇਕ ਮਨਿ ॥*
_Sabāhī sālāh jinī ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā ik man._
Those who praise the Lord in the early hours of the morning and meditate on Him single-mindedly​
translates to 'early hours of the morning'.  I am a language geek and my curiosity is getting the better of me.


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## Original (Jul 10, 2015)

Whilst, Gur Ghar and the general consensus at that particular time in history glorified AV, it is not to be taken as the BnE of all there is to Sikhi. AV is one organ of a huge body of organs. In principle, it is down to the choice of the individual and not a directive per se. However, for very many practical, environmental and evolutionary reasons it is recommended that AV ought to be a priority amongst other times for nam simran [from an ideology perspective]. Evaulating through discussion may clarify and help understand the subject matter but will not  determine a hard n fast rule for or against. The decision in my view will have to be one of common sense rather than intellectual debate n discussion. Yes, as a practitioner of AV there are advantages, these advantages, as much as I would like to pass on, I reserve not because I firmly believe it is not an exercise which is socially induced but naturally accrued from a contemplative mind and not a remedy based prescriptive. 

How the gurus lived then and how we live now must be taken into account to allow evolution to have a say.


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## chazSingh (Jul 10, 2015)

Ishna said:


> I'm confused now, too.  *re-reads the shabad*



to be called perfect kings and fighters who die fighting...is not the language of people that fail...no matter how you put it or which angle you look at it....these are the true warriors...they wake up do amrit vela, then they die fighting throughout the rest of the day...

they are constantly in battle with their 5 thieves...hence being called perfect Kings and warriors by Guru Ji.

but i'm sure there are people that do not do Amrit Vela who also do this battle...

it is when shabads state that during amrit vela the true cleansing bath takes place...or when ambrosal nectar is distributed that my mind thought....ahh....lets try this.

have never looked back since...

each to their own i guess

best practice is to just try and evaluate...the love and explorer in you is very visible already...trial and error...try things


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## Original (Jul 10, 2015)

*Chaz*, do me a favour, call it day on this bro ! AV is an exclusive zone reserved for the contemplative and not the wandering mind. Just imagine if sizeable population were to give into your train of thought n started practicing ? There'll be nowhere to sit !

Thank God its membership only !


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## chazSingh (Jul 10, 2015)

Original said:


> *Chaz*, do me a favour, call it day on this bro ! AV is an exclusive zone reserved for the contemplative and not the wandering mind. Just imagine if sizeable population were to give into your train of thought n started practicing ? There'll be nowhere to sit !
> 
> Thank God its membership only !



nowhere to sit...oh i do love stretching out my legs...

over n out...

god bless the original G


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 10, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Tejwant ji.
> 
> this is 'you' 100% ... i don;t expect anything more.



Chaz Singh ji,

Guru fateh.

Would you care to elaborate your above thought?

Thanks


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## chazSingh (Jul 10, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Chaz Singh ji,
> 
> Guru fateh.
> 
> ...



well..everytime i ask you to give you opinions on a shabad...you reply back with ... "yes, but first please give your opinion"...

it always comes across to me like you either don;t have the time. or you just want to hear others views and then find little faults in them...and then you never get around to actually doing what was asked of you...

that's the impression i get from past exchanges...

i think my view of the shabads is pretty clear...of whole shabads and certain lines if you scroll through the threads..i just wish when asked you would do the same rather than reversing it

God bless


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 10, 2015)

Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.



> well..everytime i ask you to give you opinions on a shabad...you reply back with ... "yes, but first please give your opinion"..



That's very true because as you or anyone else copies and pastes  any  Shabad, I would like to know the poster's personal understanding first so I can learn from it.

The best example would be Ishna ji. Whenever she posts the Shabad/s, she always gives her own understanding. Wouldn't you like to understand the shabad yourself before sharing it with us?Common sense demands that. We  are not here to spoon feed our version but we all want to learn from each other's viewpoint regarding the Shabad/s posted.

Do you have any problem with sharing your understanding with us? Why this reluctance?



> it always comes across to me like you either don;t have the time. or you just want to hear others views and *then find little faults in them...and then you never get around to actually doing what was asked of you.*..



How sharing my personal understanding of the Shabad posted is finding faults in people's understanding of the same from a different angle? Please elaborate it.

Chaz Ji, you are contradicting yourself now. Here is what you said above. *"you just want to hear others views and then find little faults in them...and then you never get around to actually doing what was asked of you.*

I am a bit confused about the your contradiction above. Please elaborate your doublespeak. Do I give my understanding or not? You can not have it both ways. Perhaps, you misspoke. Please clarify.

I recently had an interaction with Original ji who has a deep understanding of Gurbani about our disagreement with the meaning of the word *ਜਪੁ. *It is OK to disagree. I did not find faults in his understanding. I also urged him to explain the difference between *ਜਪੁ* and *ਜਪਿ *because in the literal translation in English it shows only one meaning- to chant. If our visionary Gurus wanted to give the same meaning then, why would they use two different words, the question you should ask yourself whenever you copy and paste the Shabads?

I guess Original ji is busy but I am awaiting his understanding about the difference between the two words so we can discuss it further because I admire and cherish his understanding about Gurbani.

This is the learning process, plain and simple. Do you disagree with that?

I will give you one more recent example about Kundalini whose understanding you disagreed with without even posting any Shabad. When you asked me about my understanding, I gave you the following link and urged you to share your findings with us.You just laughed it off. I have no idea why you are good at copying and pasting but not expressing your  personal view.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?S=y

Once again, why this reluctance from you? Wouldn't you like to understand the correct version of Gurbani for your own personal growth?



> * i thin*k my view of the shabads is pretty clear...of whole shabads and certain lines if you scroll through the threads..i just wish when asked you would do the same rather than reversing it



Do you think or you know?

If you see many of my posts, you would notice that I often repeat that the English Literal translation is misleading and incorrect. The case in point is the above two words *ਜਪੁ* and *ਜਪਿ. *Please share with us  the difference.

*Are you trying to say that you agree with the incorrect/misleading literal translation as you claim you do? *

Is this the way you understand Gurbani?

Please clarify.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Nirmaljot Baidwan (Jul 10, 2015)

Let me write something as to what i understand by Amrit wela. Yes, that time is amrit vela when you remember of him, the lord and yes we have to remember i.e keep our consciousness all the time at his feet, we should live in his memory.  Now, why do we have to live in his memory is because we want to be one with him, and that's what Guru sahib has said in SGGS that to be one with him is the goal of the human life. Now it is not easy because the soul is distracted by so many things on this sphere, so many worldly things and it is entangled. Now, we have to get rid of these entanglements and that's why we have to keep our conscious (Dhyan) in him, because the lust of these worldly things has kept the soul in this sphere. But, it is easier said than done.

It is not easy at all to keep our conscious so high all the time. So, initially ,we in the process of disentanglement  need to be free of the worldly chaos, and for this the best time of the day is the early morning time. At this time of the day we have to keep our conscious at the feet of the Lord, we have to keep thinking of him during this time of the day, at least we have to start. Gradually the mind develops this habit and our conscious remains 24x7 in him.

So, its all about keeping our conscious in him all the time and it can be nurtured with time and the best time to start with is the early morning hours because at that time the mind is calm and body is fresh, nobody knocks at your door, the roads are calm, no honking, so this time can be referred to as amrit vela and it has been by Guru sahib, now if anyone doesn't agree with their (Guru Sahib's) experience its really egoistic of one and one has to do some serious research on everything.

Now at last those who say everytime is Amrit wela, do you always keep thinking of the lord? If yes, anytime is amrit vela for you and if not, it is not amrit wela for you and if you are just fighting with others about the Amrit wela you have just been Hypocritical.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 10, 2015)

Original said:


> *Chaz*, do me a favour, call it day on this bro ! AV is an exclusive zone reserved for the contemplative and not the wandering mind. Just imagine if sizeable population were to give into your train of thought n started practicing ? There'll be nowhere to sit !
> 
> Thank God its membership only !



Original ji,

Guru Fateh.

Can you please give references to your claim above from the SGGS, our only Guru? I thought Sikhi was the only way of life which is open to all, not *"Thank God its membership only"* !

It seems from your post that you claim to have the membership for this exclusive club. 

How do you know who does and who does not? 

Please share your modus operandi- here comes the hi-tech word again- with us so those of us here who you claim do not  have the membership to this exclusive club, can also get it.

Thanks and regards.

Tejwant Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 10, 2015)

Nirmaljot Baidwan said:


> Now at last those who say everytime is Amrit wela, do you always keep thinking of the lord? If yes, anytime is amrit vela for you and if not, it is not amrit wela for you and if you are just fighting with others about the Amrit wela you have just been Hypocritical.


 Amrit means sweet and question is by thinking of Lord can my life becomes sweet or by living as per the guidance of sabd guru my life becomes sweet all the time,  thus gurbani strongly says, 'ਓਹ ਬੇਲਾ ਕਉ ਹਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ॥ I ਜਿਤੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਜਪੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਉ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥ the moment I am able to imbibe that jewels which makes my life meaningful for the humanity, I am sacrifice to that specific time. The ritualistic mumbling whether we do early in the morning or any time of the day is futile. It seems the confusion is in understanding the meaning of bhagti. Gurmat bhagti is  'ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਅਰਪਉ ਤਿਸੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਮੋਹਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਭਉ ਕਾਟੀਐ ਚੂਕੈ ਜਮ ਕੀ ਜੋਹ ॥੧॥  or ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਉਪਿ ਗੁਰ ਕਉ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਮੰਨਿਐ ਪਾਈਐ ॥  tendering my thought process alongwith accumulated wealth of shortcoming is bhagti and not mumbling. Surprising until I understand and confess, ' ਹਮ ਅੰਧੁਲੇ ਅੰਧ ਬਿਖੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਰਾਤੇ ਕਿਉ ਚਾਲਹ ਗੁਰ ਚਾਲੀ ॥ my lantern inside is switched off and how to enlighten it, I cannot make my life meaningfull. To outer 'jyotajalani' is like showing prakash to God and not to our manh.


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## chazSingh (Jul 10, 2015)

I think I will go by my own personal experience. At this present moment in time...something deep within prods me to get up at Amrit Vela.

This something I cannot deny...and will not deny...it's too powerful. No matter what you believe go by what you feel deep wuthin...the answers come flooding forward and no doubt remains...

No doubt whatsoever...when the things you read in garbani flash before your very eyes..

No doubt...seek it...test the theory

Got bless all....over and out.


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## Ishna (Jul 11, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> .you are confusing us and we are wasting precious time wondering what you are saying..



Chaz Ji

I only just saw this part of your post.  If you can't understand my posts, then don't read them.  *There's no reason to be so rude.*

Thank you for sharing as many early morning posts as you already have, however I am finished discussing it with you.

Thanks


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## Ishna (Jul 11, 2015)

People are invited to read some shabads from Sri Raag, starting on panna 43.  Shabad after shabad blatantly reinforces the concept of remembering Naam and God at all times.  This is clearly priority for Gursikhs.  Everyone should do whatever they need to do to achieve this, and all their actions will be good-natured, because they can only see the One.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 11, 2015)

ah this is the arguing thread, the other one must be the info thread!


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## Harry Haller (Jul 11, 2015)

Original said:


> Whilst, Gur Ghar and the general consensus at that particular time in history glorified AV



Do we know this for sure, seems to be that Sikhism started off completely pragmatic, why if this was another religion, Guru Nanakji, by his reputation, would surely be standing outside peoples houses at 5am waving a pair of underpants and ruining peoples Amrit Vela, in order to show the point that every second of every day is Amrit Vela. If we were to assume that for a while Sikhism stood for all the things other religions do not, and then over time, due to continued Vedic influence and Abrahamic translation ended up where it is today.


Original said:


> AV is one organ of a huge body of organs.



its actually a contradiction given the nature of this religion


Original said:


> In principle, it is down to the choice of the individual and not a directive per se.



that is like saying giving water to the sun god is also a choice of the individual



Original said:


> However, for very many practical, environmental and evolutionary reasons it is recommended that AV ought to be a priority amongst other times for nam simran [from an ideology perspective]



now you see, if you do not accept nam simran as being repetitious words, the whole concept becomes moot.


Original said:


> Evaulating through discussion may clarify and help understand the subject matter but will not determine a hard n fast rule for or against. The decision in my view will have to be one of common sense rather than intellectual debate n discussion. Yes, as a practitioner of AV there are advantages, these advantages, as much as I would like to pass on, I reserve not because I firmly believe it is not an exercise which is socially induced but naturally accrued from a contemplative mind and not a remedy based prescriptive.
> 
> How the gurus lived then and how we live now must be taken into account to allow evolution to have a say.



is there a discussion here? for all the talk of quiet mornings, birds chirping, its very simple, is there anything particularly more holy or spiritual about 3am than say 3pm?

The Gurus in my view were very very perceptive visionaires, very intelligent, very far seeing, they knew how the world was going, they knew what they had left behind, nominating a time as more holy than another simply would have been a step backwards.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 11, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> to be called perfect kings and fighters who die fighting...is not the language of people that fail...no matter how you put it or which angle you look at it....these are the true warriors...they wake up do amrit vela, then they die fighting throughout the rest of the day...



is that every day?



chazSingh said:


> they are constantly in battle with their 5 thieves...hence being called perfect Kings and warriors by Guru Ji.



so life is a constant battle with the five thieves?



chazSingh said:


> but i'm sure there are people that do not do Amrit Vela who also do this battle...



does rather beg the question as what is the point of Amrit Vela then ? I mean if doing Amrit Vela meant no more battles fair enough.



chazSingh said:


> it is when shabads state that during amrit vela the true cleansing bath takes place...or when ambrosal nectar is distributed that my mind thought....ahh....lets try this.



and this magical Amrit Vela that cleanses you, when it gets down to brass tacks, is chanting words and meditating?


chazSingh said:


> each to their own i guess
> 
> best practice is to just try and evaluate...the love and explorer in you is very visible already...trial and error...try things



well i am trying and evaluating not doing it, each to their own eh?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 11, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Original ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Originalji believes that we are called when the time is right to appreciate Amrit Vela,  you and I believe that when the time is right we are called to see life through clear glass, we are clearly at different levels in our thinking and agenda, thats ok, maybe we will never be called, maybe Originalji will never be called, its all part of the great dance, the great show, enjoy the show people, let us not take ourself too seriously, we are all masters of panga at heart.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 11, 2015)

Chaz ji,

Guru Fateh.

As you are a passionate lover of Simran, have you heard about a group called Dodra?

They are all around the world. If you have not, you should check them out. You will love their Simran gatherings.


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## Nirmaljot Baidwan (Jul 11, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> Amrit means sweet


Well meaning of amrit is far from being understood these days. Amrit means something after having which you dont die. And i dont think amrit needs to be sweet all the time, cant it be Tasteless or sour or salty? 


japjisahib04 said:


> and question is by thinking of Lord can my life becomes sweet or by living as per the guidance of sabd guru my life becomes sweet all the time


Well Thinking about the lord means thinking about the satguru all the time and the irony is that we are not living as per the guidelines of the shabad guru.



japjisahib04 said:


> thus gurbani strongly says, 'ਓਹ ਬੇਲਾ ਕਉ ਹਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ॥ I ਜਿਤੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਜਪੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਉ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥ the moment I am able to imbibe that jewels which makes my life meaningful for the humanity, I am sacrifice to that specific time.



With all due respect i must say ,I dont agree with translation that you have provided. Where does the humanity come in from? Lets try n make our lives meaningful for us First. A more appropriate translation according to me would be "I am a sacrifice to the time when i meditate on the Lords name Within" .


japjisahib04 said:


> The ritualistic mumbling whether we do early in the morning or any time of the day is futile.


No ritualistic mumbling my friend, it has to be done within and yes getting Up early morning is no ritual. Ever wondered why 100 m sprinters always take that awkward stance of bending forward before the race begins? It gives them that thrust that start that they look for otherwise there is no necessity of getting into a stance and start running. Its all science my friend ,that morning time gives that kick start which focuses your mind more, don't confuse science with rituals.


japjisahib04 said:


> It seems the confusion is in understanding the meaning of bhagti. Gurmat bhagti is  'ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਅਰਪਉ ਤਿਸੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਮੋਹਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਭਉ ਕਾਟੀਐ ਚੂਕੈ ਜਮ ਕੀ ਜੋਹ ॥੧॥  or ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਉਪਿ ਗੁਰ ਕਉ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਮੰਨਿਐ ਪਾਈਐ ॥  tendering my thought process alongwith accumulated wealth of shortcoming is bhagti and not mumbling.


ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਅਰਪਉ ਤਿਸੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਮੋਹਿ ॥

I Offer my mind, body and wealth in other words everything to one who can make me meet the Lord.
Now this is interesting, few years back i posted a post somewhere and it had the content that we need external help from someone who has already walked that path so that we can be lead to the lord. Some guys made a mockery of it and said why do we need an intermediator to meet the lord? Now the above tuk clarifies and bolsters that point. Now, only guru sahib needed someone who could make them meet the lord? Obviously we also do.

Coming back to the subject Offering everything to the one who can lead to the lord means to start living in the will of the one who can lead you to the lord, obviously they don't need your wealth or body and how can one offer their mann to someone? That's done by living in their will. And this is not my point of view, this is guru sahibans.

ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਅਰਪਉ ਤਿਸੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਮੋਹਿ ॥

And the significance of having someone to lead us to the Lord is further magnified by what you wrote


japjisahib04 said:


> ' ਹਮ ਅੰਧੁਲੇ ਅੰਧ ਬਿਖੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਰਾਤੇ ਕਿਉ ਚਾਲਹ ਗੁਰ ਚਾਲੀ ॥


Although Guru sahib took it on himself , obviously he meant the ਹਮ ਅੰਧੁਲੇ for us manmukhs, As we are ਅੰਧੁਲੇ we need someone who can lead us.


japjisahib04 said:


> To outer 'jyotajalani' is like showing prakash to God and not to our manh.


Oh yes buddy outer jot has no significance at all and to have that light within we need to go within and to go within we need to meet someone who has already went within.
 On Ang 293 

|| ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ 
ਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਗੁਰਿ ਦੀਆ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਧੇਰ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ ॥
The Guru has put the collyrium of wisdom in my eye and the darkness of ignorance has dispelled away.

ਹਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਸੰਤ ਭੇਟਿਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਨਿ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥੧॥
With Lords grace I have met the saint, O Nanak, my mind is enlightened.

And wherever i have mentioned" the one who leads us to the Lord" i meant A True Saint.

Regards,
Nirmaljot Singh Baidwan.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 11, 2015)

Guru Fateh to all.

I think the Pro Amritvela group has misunderstood what the other side of the fence is trying to convey. I would like to add something to it rather than having a sabre match with bamboo sticks.

I understand you think that Amritvela is early in the morning and I respect your stance although I do not agree with that. But as far as getting up in the early morning is concerned, no one is disputing about that, when the birds begin to chirp, the dew drops are sitting on the petals, like the pearls in the open oysters before the first rays of the Sun gulp them all up at once while they are still rippling with life. 

It is the moment of contemplation when the ex- marathoners and now the power walkers like me start their stroll at 3:30am while listening to Kirtan for two some hours. The beads of sweat seem like dew drops on the petals of life.The moments are like having a board meeting with the self for what lies ahead and how to use the Gurmat values to tackle the winding roads of life. These moments are full of serenity while one can feel one's own breath exhaling to be free.

The dispute here is that for many of us Amritvela is anytime of the day with or sans dew drops. So, it is futile to become the gladiators in the open arena where the only spectators are ourselves waiting for the lions to devour us when they are let loose. Let's not let that happen. Some people do like their morning slumber.

Do not forget to set up your morning wake up body clocks.

Tejwant Singh


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## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2015)

Nirmaljot Baidwan said:


> Amrit means something after having which you dont die.



well, at least your honest! so its like a magic potion!



Nirmaljot Baidwan said:


> With all due respect i must say ,I dont agree with translation that you have provided. Where does the humanity come in from? Lets try n make our lives meaningful for us First. A more appropriate translation according to me would be "I am a sacrifice to the time when i meditate on the Lords name Within" .


 can translations be rejected because you do not agree with them? does such a term as 'appropriate translation' actually exists, surely something is correctly translated or not.



Nirmaljot Baidwan said:


> I Offer my mind, body and wealth in other words everything to one who can make me meet the Lord.
> Now this is interesting, few years back i posted a post somewhere and it had the content that we need external help from someone who has already walked that path so that we can be lead to the lord. Some guys made a mockery of it and said why do we need an intermediator to meet the lord? Now the above tuk clarifies and bolsters that point. Now, only guru sahib needed someone who could make them meet the lord? Obviously we also do.



and thats the reason Punjab is overflowing with deras. 



Nirmaljot Baidwan said:


> Coming back to the subject Offering everything to the one who can lead to the lord means to start living in the will of the one who can lead you to the lord, obviously they don't need your wealth or body and how can one offer their mann to someone? That's done by living in their will. And this is not my point of view, this is guru sahibans.



and thats the reason Punjab is overflowing with deras.



Nirmaljot Baidwan said:


> Oh yes buddy outer jot has no significance at all and to have that light within we need to go within and to go within we need to meet someone who has already went within.



and thats the reason Punjab is overflowing with deras............


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 12, 2015)

I think S. Tejwant Singh been kind to clarify difference between gurmat amrit vyla and morning time, otherwise guru sahib would not have said, 'ਕੁਰਬਾਣੁ ਜਾਈ ਉਸੁ ਵੇਲਾ ਸੁਹਾਵੀ ਜਿਤੁ ਤੁਮਰੈ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਆਇਆ ॥ or ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁ ਵੇਲਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਮੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਸੋ ਸਹੁ ਚਿਤਿ ਆਇਆ ॥.

In order to know what is 'ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ', let us go back to the source and in which context it is written:

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥  True God is filled with inifinite love, This is the yardstick and concept of God

ਆਖਹਿ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ॥  whosoever wish to be truthful, he cleans his vessel and attains the divine wisdom

ਫੇਰਿ ਕਿ ਅਗੈ ਰਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ ॥ In order to be truthful, for that he shift and tenders his thought process towards satguru (mind you over the word is 'ਫੇਰਿ ਕਿ'  - shift your paradigm and not 'ਫਿਰਿ ਕੀ' what to place) or do we have anything of our to place before him.

ਮੁਹੌ ਕਿ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ It is not related with outer mouth like parroting but mental body's mouth. Just like 'ਮਨ ਕਰਿ ਕਬਹੂ ਨ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਇਓ ॥ it is the manh which sings, burning desire to speak sweet truthful language to evoke His love otherwise  ' ਟੂਟਿ ਪਰੀਤਿ ਗਈ ਬੁਰ ਬੋਲਿ ॥ '
*
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ * To be sweet and speak truth,  does it require any special timing? Guru sahib is telling if you live as per voice of truth, your whole life will be sweet and sehj. No more spiritual death.

ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥ with this you attain robe of satguru dee matt.  Gurmat way is 'nanak nadree payeea - only by exploring the treasure we can be one with gurbani and not parroting, thus 'nadree' over here is the essence - tat gian. With tat gian we can achieve state of oneness.*T*here is no SOS type grace in gurmat.

ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥ If we understand that it is only by, 'hukam rajayee chalna, then our life will be meaningful and truth.

Gurmat strictly forbids intermediatary and whereever the word sant, santo, sant sang, it is all related to virtues only.
I cite one example 'ਕਹਤੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਰੇ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਤਰਿ ਜਾਂਹਿਗਾ ॥੩॥੧॥ Over here word santo and saadh sanghat is also there. Do 'sant' also need the saadhsanghat' to cross over, that mean what type of this sant is who require another saadhsanghat.


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## Nirmaljot Baidwan (Jul 12, 2015)

harry haller said:


> well, at least your honest! so its like a magic potion!


And you thought its only something sweet? Now don't start searching this magic potion somewhere outside, it can be found within. Oh first let me guess are you even searching?



harry haller said:


> can translations be rejected because you do not agree with them? does such a term as 'appropriate translation' actually exists, surely something is correctly translated or not.



Yes, whatever is wrongly translated should be rejected upfront.



harry haller said:


> and thats the reason Punjab is overflowing with deras.



Oh yes!!! my friend Punjab is overflowing with deras like it was during the time of ninth Guru when so many fake gurus were saying that they were the true Gurus, but it doesn't mean the True one was not there. Can you imagine the fake ones were there that time too. But the true seeker will always find the true one just like Makhan shah lubana did that time, instead the true one manifests himself to the true seeker. 
And the true one can manifest himself anywhere, not only in punjab i wonder why the deras and punjab came to your mind when talking of the true one.

Lets Widen our Horizons!!!! And follow the true teaching of the Guru sahiban.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2015)

Nirmaljot Baidwan said:


> And you thought its only something sweet? Now don't start searching this magic potion somewhere outside, it can be found within. Oh first let me guess are you even searching?



agreed!



Nirmaljot Baidwan said:


> Yes, whatever is wrongly translated should be rejected upfront.



ahhh ok, you don't mean appropriate, you mean correct!



Nirmaljot Baidwan said:


> Oh yes!!! my friend Punjab is overflowing with deras like it was during the time of ninth Guru when so many fake gurus were saying that they were the true Gurus, but it doesn't mean the True one was not there. Can you imagine the fake ones were there that time too. But the true seeker will always find the true one just like Makhan shah lubana did that time, instead the true one manifests himself to the true seeker.
> And the true one can manifest himself anywhere, not only in punjab i wonder why the deras and punjab came to your mind when talking of the true one.
> 
> Lets Widen our Horizons!!!! And follow the true teaching of the Guru sahiban.



Personally, I think we can do that on our own,


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 12, 2015)

Nirmaljot Baidwan said:


> With all due respect i must say ,I don't agree with translation that you have provided. Where does the humanity come in from? Lets try n make our lives meaningful for us First. A more appropriate translation according to me would be "I am a sacrifice to the time when i meditate on the Lords name Within" .


Strange! Do we have to meditate on Lords name within? The purpose is to make our life meaningful for others.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> Strange! Do we have to meditate on Lords name within? The purpose is to make our life meaningful for others.



depends on your agenda, finding the 10th eye, or the 14th nose can take priority sometimes


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 12, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> *Strange! Do we have to meditate on Lords name within? *The purpose is to make our life meaningful for others.


 
One must have a strong WiFi as a prerequisite.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 12, 2015)

no, no, we could be on to something, maybe meditation makes your life meaningful?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 12, 2015)

harry haller said:


> no, no, we could be on to something, maybe meditation makes your life meaningful?



Or cultivating meaningful life is itself meditation.


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## Original (Jul 13, 2015)

Dear All

It's a fundamental human value to respect others no matter how immature and ignobly one is dispositioned. Giving others their respect n dignity protects our very own integrity and honour. Showing respect to others and allowing them to vent their views is to believe in their pontential to grow and develop fruitfully as social beings albeit with alien ideologies. Whether I'm a theologian, secularist or a pragmatist doesn't mean I've the right to take the michael when the subject matter is of a "personal" way inclined. 

Nanak's Sikhi can be lived with a variety of attitudes. For example, the contemplative, the dynamic, the ordinary and the extra-ordinary all can be made to measure and construct their own lifestyles. This type of liberalism would train people for living in a democratic society, and it would strengthen the development of this type of social and political organisation. A democratic society is one that is better able to confront new situations, and try new situations, since it does not have any rigid but flexible ideology. It is essentially a system of social organisation that is open to exploration of new means for meeting difficulties. It is designed to evolve, to meet change and to adopt to new developments. The disciplined Sikh is not only nurtured but trained in problem-solving with which he/she is able to be an active social being of such social organisation, utilising his/ her techniques for dealing with situations galore. Preferred methodology would be cooperation over conflict where n when possible with the larger segment of society in its common search for harmonious well being of all of its members.

Moving on to the real deal this morning brings me to the point of Amrit Vela. A lot can be said but best not to [vast subject], early morning engagement with anything is on the common a rewarding enterprise. To talk about Gurbani and to understand its value n wisdom it is important to know something about its authors, that is, their personal, social, religious, economic, etc. outlooks and dispositions in general. It provides us with a healthy toolkit to reconstruct the past.

I've said in the past that Nanak was more of a social than a religious reformer. His contempt of the social organisation and the calamities of religious belief is well documented on page 722 of SGGSJ. But since having that divine intervention at Sultanpur Lodhi, he went out to proclaim the word of God and lead humankind in that direction. 

His mode of expression of his new find was very important. He chose poetry over literature, but that too had to be contemporairarly approved in terms of convention. His idea of mool mantar followed by 38 stanzas was very carefully thought through. In the mool mantar he portrays God with its characteristics and in the body below, a series of questions and answers intended to bring out the relationship of humankind in its social, religious, personal and metaphysical world. It's prescriptive as well as poetic in both emotional and doctrinal meaning of the word Sikh.

To capture Nanak's mood n influence re AV, let's go directly at the heart of the preceding question !

*Question*:
What then, we humans could offer to get a glimpse of Almighty's court ? What words could we utter that would move Almighty to love us ? [phir ka aga rakhee'ai jit dis'ay darbaar.....].

Here Guru Nanak metaphorically relies on the current socio-religious workings of the ordinary citizen attending mandirs, mosques, temples, etc to militate his point to the alternative, that is, Amrit Vela.

*Answer*:
In the ambrosial hours of early dawn, meditate on the true name and reflect on his greatness [amrit vela sach naa'o vadiaa'ee veechar].

Baba Nanak Ji explains, we can only offer something which we ourselves possess, and, that is our ego, for everything else belongs to God. This means relinquishing one's will and accepting God's, to be able to see and love him. True praise of God is to set aside time, preferably in the early hours of the morning to meditate just like you would for a social event or personal preoccupation. Why early morning ? Common sense coupled with evolutionary workings favoured AV over other times because the morning after a night's sleep the body is fully relaxed and fresh. And, since the objective of this exercise is to be in total n complete isolation from the hustle bustle of the noisy dictates of the wakeful life and to anchor the wandering mind in one sitting it's not rocket science to work out way Nanak and the gang chose 3 am over 3 pm. This for the then society was a way to an unconditional relationship of love n devotion founded very much on practical rather than metaphysical terms. Guru Arjun On page 1099 suggests, "at dawn meditate n contemplate rewards are too good" [parbhaate prabh nam jap...].

From a personal view point, I've always been an AM [watch it H] guy. Everyday, I'm up without fail because it has been "conditioned" [read up pavlov] within the human me. In my case it was never religious but more physical. Attending to agricultural duties back at home, we were in the fields by 4 the very latest and 3 the earliest. Social conditions favoured early bed early rise to avoid roasting n toasting out in the fields had it been left any late. So from that perspective, some of us are conditioned as opposed to making a choice.

The results for me personally have been phenomnial in the sense, after a good physical work out in the early hours of the morning due to the body's endorphin release mechanism, I'm on a high already before sitting to rake the mind on to home turf for gur shabd connection. And, for me it doesn't always bear fruit, but I get a good start to the day together with my moral compass aligned to reflect the good Sikh values are practised daily.

It wasn't until late in life when I was able to migrate from a mere physical activity to spiritual contemplation. And, like all arts n crafts it takes time to master. That is not to say, those who don't meditate are any less of the well-to-citizens of the state, far from it, I come across loads of people who hasn't the faintest and yet they are equally if not more jolly and prosperous in all aspects of "life". It all depends what you want from meditation, for example, an experiment was carried out on meditating monks and the findings were truly remarkable. It was found after an EEG test that the four primary brain waves were almost completely synchronised, which otherwise in the ordinary joe bloggs appear out of synch, but in the case of these monks they aligned almost perfectly. What does that mean ? It meant that these monks were found to be living in a state of constant bliss, of happiness, of empathy for the world around them. They lived in the moment - 

At the end of the day, what matters most is your personal disposition, if you're a meditator or a gladiator and happy, so be it, because the true enjoyer is the soul and in whatever capacity she finds peace, tranquility, joy, happiness n all the rest is the place for you to be. Says Nanak, "higher than truth is truthful living".

Amrit Vela nam simran is a recommendation and not a statute cast in stone.

Sorry for the condensed write up - lot more where this came from.

Good day !


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## chazSingh (Jul 13, 2015)

Ishna said:


> Chaz Ji
> 
> I only just saw this part of your post.  If you can't understand my posts, then don't read them.  *There's no reason to be so rude.*
> 
> ...



Huh?

i think you've misunderstood what i wrote...i was being sarcastic...and it wasn;t aimed at you...it was aimed at GOD lol 

in your interpretation of the shabad, you stated that you think the shabad was portarying the uselessness of early morning Amrit Vela...

and i was saying *why on Gods good earth* would he describe the early morning risers as the *'PERFECT KINGS"* if what they were doing was useless...

IT MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER? 

so in a *sarcastic way* i was saying to *GOD*....*".you are confusing us and we are wasting precious time wondering what you are saying.."*

of course what i really meant was...*GOD DOESN'T* *confuse us*...he is describing them as *PERFECT KINGS*...because it is through their practice of *starting the day with Amrit Vela Simran* that they are able to *tackle their 5 thieves*, and *wondering mind* and remeber god* 24/7 *in all their *actions and deeds and thoughts.*..

but it;s ok...somehow you interpreted my reply as being an attack on you or something like that..

appologies for the capital letters and bold comments...but i felt i needed to so that there is no confusion with my reply.

God Bless...


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## chazSingh (Jul 13, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Chaz ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



i am indeed a passionate lover of Simran...

i get my proof of Gods Existence from God alone...no need for gathering with certain groups...which believe me...is the only proof i need 

So tejwant ji...god bless you on your journey to Waheguru. i wish you all the best on that journey.

i like many others...being inspired by a new generation of truth seekers, we will continue to bath in the light during AMrit Vela and serving humanity during the day as best we can whilst fighting to conquer our 5 thieves...and this also includes daytime contemplation/mediation...thus making the 24/7 Waheguru Contemplation closer to reality as possible..

There is no need to reply to my message...i'm sure anything you need to know...any direction you need to take can be taken from your Guru.

All the best Ji.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 13, 2015)

I keep forgetting, is this the arguing or info thread


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## chazSingh (Jul 13, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Guru Fateh to all.
> 
> I think the Pro Amritvela group has misunderstood what the other side of the fence is trying to convey. I would like to add something to it rather than having a sabre match with bamboo sticks.
> 
> ...



I think you are also misunderstanding the pro-amrit vela point of view..

no where has anyone said it is Amrit Vela and thats it 

24/7 living under Waheguru's guidance, 24/7 contemplation, 24/7 serving etc etc are the way forward...

but what i found myself...when i read Guru Ji's words of Contemplation with IK MAN...single pointedness...which are words used over and over by Guru Ji...

i just couldn't do it with all my heart...that single mindedness just didn't happen when i was at work...driving the car...shopping etc etc...there was too much going on...

and when i tried the early morning hours....BOOOM....i had found that place and time where i could do this...it may not be the best time for everyone...but it fell into place for me...and i know others..

that IK MAN...that single pointedness for the first time i had achieved...and i was over the moon...like a kid walking into the sweet shop...

my dreams came true...all my calls to waheguru....they were heard...that feeling of finally knowing what you've been seeking actually exists...and my mind failed in taking that precious moment away...i gained single pointedness on waheguru...and waheguru made His presence known.

that is why that time of day is special to me...*it made the impossible....possible...for me*

But yes of course it can be anytime during the day....i hope we;re all able to get our minds under control and use the full power of our mind to focus on His shabd and light...

From the bottom of my heart i pray we can keep progressing to the state of being of god consciousness.


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 13, 2015)

Original said:


> In the ambrosial hours of early dawn, meditate on the true name and reflect on his greatness [amrit vela sach naa'o vadiaa'ee veechar].


 I am wondering why will guru sahib contradict himself and suggest to mediate to the true name early dawn. Why will guru sahib ask us to waste our time unnecessarily in momentarily meditation, as after waking up of meditation  ਜਬ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਵੈ ਤਬ ਗਰਬੁ ਕਰਤੁ ਹੈ ॥ ਮਾਇਆ ਗਈ ਤਬ ਰੋਵਨੁ ਲਗਤੁ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ But when his wealth is gone, then he cries and bewails. ||1||  Please note gurmat smadhi is 24x7 and i.e. after listening when one accepts and follow,  his mind gets stablised for ever i.e. gurmat smadhi.  Once manh accept satugur dee matt then as guru sahib says, 'ਅਬ ਮੋਹਿ ਨਾਚਨੋ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥  ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਮੰਦਰੀਆ ਨ ਬਜਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ it wanders no more.


Original said:


> [phir ka aga rakhee'ai jit dis'ay darbaar.....].


 When guru sahib have already asked us to tender our thought process in first pauree of japjisahib why will guru sahib raise another question and fix time. Guru sahib is reminding us that we have shown our back to truth, shift your manh towards guru dee matt.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 13, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> I think you are also misunderstanding the pro-amrit vela point of view..
> 
> no where has anyone said it is Amrit Vela and thats it
> 
> ...



Chaz Singh ji,

Guru fateh.



> think you are also misunderstanding the pro-amrit vela point of view..
> 
> no where has anyone said it is Amrit Vela and thats it



I do not want to rehash this anymore because in many many posts of yours since you joined SPN, you said Amritvela is getting up  at the "Ambrosial hour" which itself is an incorrect translation.

Time to move on.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 13, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> i am indeed a passionate lover of Simran...
> 
> i get my proof of Gods Existence from God alone...no need for gathering with certain groups...which believe me...is the only proof i need
> 
> ...


Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh. 

It is sad to notice that you did not even bother to read my post and started defending yourself about your simran. I was trying to help you with your Simran. I apologise if that offended you. Let me repeat again:



> Tejwant Singh said: ↑
> Chaz ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> ...



This group is in your ballpark for your Simran. I used to belong to the Dodra Group or as it is also known "Vaheguru Group" many years ago. Your response to my post seems very puzzling and has nothing to do with what I asked you. 

In this group, only the normal people lead others to Simran an do Keertan. There are no Raagis. Their way of doing Simran and Keertan is mesmerizing.

You should try it.

Good luck!

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## chazSingh (Jul 13, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Chaz Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...




In the past i think you have mentioned that you had a bad experience with this group...

thanks for the suggestion...but my Simran is done alone...at home. i Say 'alone' but i'm never actually 'alone' ...my sangat is at the Gurdwara or online with like minded individuals i have met on this forum and other forums...

why change a winning formula?

Thanks again for the suggestion ji

God Bless


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## chazSingh (Jul 13, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Chaz Singh ji,
> 
> Guru fateh.
> 
> ...




good suggestion....time to move on...all Simran is a good thing...god bless


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 13, 2015)

Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write in post#72


> i get my proof of Gods Existence from God alone...no need for gathering with certain groups...which believe me...is the only proof i need



If the above what you claim is the Sikhi way, then why do we recite the following two Shabads daily in the evening called Soh Dhar-Rehraas? I have not included the explanation by Prof. Sahib SIngh in the following because I did not get the response how good your Gurmukhi is. Hence, I just added Sant Singh Khalsa's literal translation.

BTW, the word *Sangat* comes *717 times in SGGS*, our only Guru which contradicts your claim above. Do you claim  that you know better than our Gurus or you misspoke?

The above is not a criticism in any way or form what you do but the fact of the matter is your stance above contradicts the principles of Sikhi and I am wondering why you have this stance. Would appreciate if your clarify that.



> ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥
> Rāg gūjrī mėhlā 4.
> Raag Goojaree, Fourth Mehl:
> 
> ...





> ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
> Rāg gūjrī mėhlā 5.
> Raag Goojaree, Fifth Mehl:
> 
> ...



Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## chazSingh (Jul 14, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Chaz Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...




Tejwant Ji,

remember what i said earlier...that it often comes across that you try to discredit other sangat members by picking at their posts and trying to find what you believe are faults.

this is exactly what you have done here...

even though in my above post i stated *"thanks for the suggestion...but my Simran is done alone...at home. i Say 'alone' but i'm never actually 'alone' ...my sangat is at the Gurdwara or online with like minded individuals i have met on this forum and other forums...
why change a winning formula?*"

you still try to pick at a single sentence and try to slam your fellow 'sangat' member down by claiming i am somehow against having Sangat...did you even read my above comment  ?


but that's ok...like i said i am used to it 

it took me back that even Ishna Ji took a single sentence of mine and then tried to make me come across as rude...even though when you read my post the comment was clearly no intended towards anyone on the forum 

and then Harry Ji tries to make out i am SPAM'ing...i mean really...if you don;t like my opinion...move on...

this is exactly the pack mentality that has made what was once a 'GLOBAL' forum into one that has only 5-6 members regular posters

Also, well done for finding out how many times the world 'mind' is used in SGGS ji...if you can search for that, then i am sure you can also find shabads where it states the 'intellect' cannot be used to understand Waheguru. Gurbani comes from waheguru...using intellect you will only ever get a finite, defined and limited version of gurbani....when you fall into the mansarovar of waheguru..gurbani opens up at various levels...that is what i have found..and it cannot be described or understood...or comprehended...it is beyond those limits....and i haven;t even scratched the surface of it...
This is just my opinion based on my subjective experience...

The mind is a fantastic tool that we use to get darshan of waheguru...it is a gft...but only when we can control it and focus with Ik MAN. otherwise it just keeps us locked in the maze.

This is my last post on this forum.

i wish you all well my good friends

*Chaz Singh* - a sikh who is full of Ego,Lust, Anger, Desire and Greed...who is making every effort and crying out to Waheguru to pull me out and carry me across this terrifying world ocean-

over and out...god bless


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## Ishna (Jul 14, 2015)

@chazSingh 

I am sorry to hear you are leaving.   May your future travels bring your comradery, learning and contentment.

And I apologise; I did indeed misunderstand your post.  It makes obvious sense now that you explained it.  *blush*

All the best
Ishna


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## Harry Haller (Jul 14, 2015)

I keep forgetting, is this the arguing or info thread


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## Harry Haller (Jul 14, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> "thanks for the suggestion...but my Simran is done alone...at home. i Say 'alone' but i'm never actually 'alone'



oh come on Chazji, you said alone, but you didn't mean alone, is this any way to debate?



chazSingh said:


> *why change a winning formula?*"



and herein lies the problem, you believe you have the winning formula, whilst I still believe I know very little


chazSingh said:


> you still try to pick at a single sentence and try to slam your fellow 'sangat' member down by claiming i am somehow against having Sangat...did you even read my above comment  ?
> 
> 
> but that's ok...like i said i am used to it



holier than thou does not suit you, come on stop playing the martyr here, we all dig in, Tejwantji picks at you, you pick at him, I do remember reading what I thought was an olive branch when Tejjyji tried to share with you your love of simran by mentioning his band, if I recall you rubbished it, so come on, lets not get precious here, and that applies to everyone. 



chazSingh said:


> and then Harry Ji tries to make out i am SPAM'ing...i mean really...if you don;t like my opinion...move on...



I did not ask to be given a moderating role, I couldn't care less about your opinion, but the definitive statements you made in that post were getting towards spam, trying to sell me something, trying to sell others something, why cannot you just contribute without all the claims?



chazSingh said:


> this is exactly the pack mentality that has made what was once a 'GLOBAL' forum into one that has only 5-6 members regular posters



Well, I have been to other forums, they are quite different to this one, for all your angst, this forum is one of the few that encourages free speech without editing, without deleting, you type it, it appears. 
Also, there is no forum line on any of this, merely TOS. I happen to believe in something different than you, it just so happens I also mod, however, I have never had a conflict with these two. As for Tejwantji, he is not even staff! All he is doing is voicing his own opinion and debating, what would you wish I do? Mod his posts so they do not upset anyone? this is the land of the brave and free Chazji, and for that we pay a price, to that end there is much self regulation, self modding here, that we do not actually need a forum moderator, a few people chip in now and then when needed, other than that, the forum runs itself, content here is king.



chazSingh said:


> This is my last post on this forum.



Don't be silly, you are our resident meditation bod, if you leave, then this forum will descend into chaos, 40 days of night, locusts, cats and dogs living together! look, in all seriousness, don't make me beg, you have a valid viewpoint, but surely we can challenge each other? 



chazSingh said:


> *Chaz Singh* - a sikh who is full of Ego,Lust, Anger, Desire and Greed...who is making every effort and crying out to Waheguru to pull me out and carry me across this terrifying world ocean-



and its educational to share it! Its just the 'everyone stop and follow me' bit that does not sit well,


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## Original (Jul 14, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Tejwant Ji,
> 
> remember what i said earlier...that it often comes across that you try to discredit other sangat members by picking at their posts and trying to find what you believe are faults.
> 
> ...



Chaz

I understand, you being spiritual n constant nit-pick drags down rather than elevates the fragrant ambiance to which you belong. I'm sorry !

As for me I cannot justify the move because I'm not in search, what I have as a pedigree Sikh [passed from father to son from the beginning of time], I share, yes, if you were to leave I will miss you. Brother T n H I love, because they've got their own shades through which they see what they want to see or what they believe to be "reality. In a society like ours that kinda of freedom should be allowed? And, that shouldn't come as surpirse to you coz root town Punjab is full of Baba's with their own interpretations. They've set up their camps accordingly coz they too feel it's too much camouflaged with Vedic, Abrahams, etc. yet despite these differences in interpretation, practices, they remain "believers". 

Don't go, your association together with your spiritual wisdom is much a need here than any where else.

In my wakeful life I'm in meetings, conferences, consultations, disputes and what not - and some of the task with Amnesty International are mind blowing. Deep down I feel that warrior spirit that keeps moving for better.

I love you and understand you - wherever you'll be Ill always with you - I'm the Singh n Kaur.

Speak soon - lunchtime for me !


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## Harry Haller (Jul 14, 2015)

Original said:


> lunchtime for me !



what is so special about this time that it is lunchtime? surely anytime is lunchtime!


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## Original (Jul 14, 2015)

harry haller said:


> what is so special about this time that it is lunchtime? surely anytime is lunchtime!


...when I'm on home turf then its roti off-the-tava, prepared especially for me by my wife. I can breaky with Sharon, dinner with Karen but lunch, yes lunch with Jeeto.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 14, 2015)

Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.



> remember what i said earlier...that it often comes across that you try to discredit other sangat members by picking at their posts and trying to find what you believe are faults.



First of all, I feel saddened that you have decided to leave this forum. You are a great asset to this forum. All families have shouting matches and I am glad we have  not gotten to that stage and we wil never be. DIsagreements are solved through discussion. I was asking you about Gurbani and the contradiction you have with it so I can learn from you.

Please show me where I have discredited you and if I have then I will apologise. Sikhi is all about questioning and debating and it starts in Jap ji. I asked you the questions so I can clarify things. I did not accuse you of anything. Different views on the subject/s being discussed are the core aspect  for  our learning process.



> this is exactly what you have done here...
> even though in my above post i stated *"thanks for the suggestion...but my Simran is done alone...at home. i Say 'alone' but i'm never actually 'alone' ...my sangat is at the Gurdwara or online with like minded individuals i have met on this forum and other forums...*
> *why change a winning formula?*"
> 
> you still try to pick at a single sentence and try to slam your fellow 'sangat' member down by claiming i am somehow against having Sangat...did you even read my above comment  ?



I am sorry to say, I could not find in your posts what is in blue. Could you please direct me to that? Thanks




> but that's ok...like i said i am used to it



Used to what? Please elaborate if you can,



> it took me back that even Ishna Ji took a single sentence of mine and then tried to make me come across as rude...even though when you read my post the comment was clearly no intended towards anyone on the forum
> 
> and then Harry Ji tries to make out i am SPAM'ing...i mean really...if you don;t like my opinion...move on...



Whatever your interaction is with others, I have never interfered in that nor do I intend to. Both, Ishna ji and Harry ji are very capable of having different viewpoints as many do, including both of us and many others. As Harry ji said, I am just another member like you. I am not a moderator and I have seen that this is the only Sikh Forum where no member' goes through any filtration system before the post is even posted.We are all free to post whatever we like to unlike in other Sikh Forums



> this is exactly the pack mentality that has made what was once a 'GLOBAL' forum into one that has only 5-6 members regular posters



You are mistaken. Many people here agree and disagree with each other and interact on it. I have had my disagreements with both Ishna ji and Harry ji and we have interacted to clear those and learn from them. When someone/s disagree with you, it is not a pack mentality as you put it. Do you mean when Original Ji agrees with you and post his agreements, would you call that pack mentality?I would not. 

I may disagree with his posts which I have and also with many other people, I give my viewpoint based on my understanding on Gurbani. 

 I do  not bully anyone because that is not me. There is another member called LSD who started posting here  recently. Most of his posts towards me were bullying  and I never responded to his way. Even Original ji noticed that and asked him to tone it down. I wish he/she would post again. I have not seen LSD after his posts.



> Also, well done for finding out how many times the world 'mind' is used in SGGS ji...if you can search for that, then i am sure you can also find shabads where it states the 'intellect' cannot be used to understand Waheguru. Gurbani comes from waheguru...using intellect you will only ever get a finite, defined and limited version of gurbani....when you fall into the mansarovar of waheguru..gurbani opens up at various levels...that is what i have found..and it cannot be described or understood...or comprehended...it is beyond those limits....and i haven;t even scratched the surface of it...
> This is just my opinion based on my subjective experience...



I am aware of that. This is the reason we interact. You present your views  regarding 'intellect' and of any other things from Gurbani  that you happen to disagree with,so we can  learn from each other.  Please post those Gurbani verses with your viewpoint.. This is only learning process in Sikhi that is why Sangat is important and so is Mind according to the SGGS, our only Guru.



> The mind is a fantastic tool that we use to get darshan of waheguru...it is a gft...but only when we can control it and focus with Ik MAN. otherwise it just keeps us locked in the maze.



I have no idea what you mean by "darshan of waheguru..," Would you be kind enough to elaborate that for me with examples from Gurbani? I totally agree with you with the rest you mentioned above.



> This is my last post on this forum.
> 
> i wish you all well my good friends



I am sorry to see that. I wish you would change your mind and visit this forum and others as we all do because every member is an asset here and you are one of the most important assets here because of your different viewpoint. This is the beauty of Sikhi. 



> *Chaz Singh* - a sikh who is full of Ego,Lust, Anger, Desire and Greed...who is making every effort and crying out to Waheguru to pull me out and carry me across this terrifying world ocean-



It is not only Chaz Singh but every Sikh is "full of Ego,Lust, Anger, Desire and Greed". This is the reason we Sikhs, o we can seek help from our fellow Sikhs to lasso these enemies who dwell in all of us. We are notcable to kill these enemies within because they are part of the human DNA.

Regards
Tejwant Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 14, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Say 'alone' but i'm never actually 'alone' ...my sangat is at the Gurdwara or online with like minded individuals i have met on this forum and other forums...why change a winning formula?"


 Chaz Jee with due respect may I ask you, for truthful living and to be truthful, do gurbani guide us to interact with like minded individuals or the sabd guru. As S. Tejwant Singh found that 'sanghat' word appears 747 times but in order to be sachiar it only guide us repeatedly to make sanghat with sabd guru. Number of people or the general conglomeration at the gurdwara is not sanghat. When gurbani says, 'ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੀਐ ਦੂਰਹਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਭਾਗਿ ॥ ਬਾਸਨੁ ਕਾਰੋ ਪਰਸੀਐ ਤਉ ਕਛੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਦਾਗੁ ॥੧੩੧॥ it is not labeling anyone faithless and Kabeerji is not advising to stay away from human. He is advising us to keep distance with negative thought and imbibe divine traits.SGGS.1371.9

Further it pained me to hear that you are leaving this forum. I have learned a lot from you, so my request to stay with us.


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## Original (Jul 14, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> Chaz Jee with due respect may I ask you, for truthful living and to be truthful, do gurbani guide us to interact with like minded individuals or the sabd guru. As S. Tejwant Singh found that 'sanghat' word appears 747 times but in order to be sachiar it only guide us repeatedly to make sanghat with sabd guru. Number of people or the general conglomeration at the gurdwara is not sanghat. When gurbani says, 'ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੀਐ ਦੂਰਹਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਭਾਗਿ ॥ ਬਾਸਨੁ ਕਾਰੋ ਪਰਸੀਐ ਤਉ ਕਛੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਦਾਗੁ ॥੧੩੧॥ it is not labeling anyone faithless and Kabeerji is not advising to stay away from human. He is advising us to keep distance with negative thought and imbibe divine traits.SGGS.1371.9
> 
> Further it pained me to hear that you are leaving this form. I have learned a lot from you, so my request to stay with us.



Dear All

I'm honestly touched with the way sympathisers have expressed their gut ache reaction to Chaz's departure [hope you'll read, Chaz] and if I'm allowed a say, it'll be as follows:

Let us act as a *Senate* [residents of SPN] where our roles remain pretty much passive up and until asked to comment, compliment, criticised, debate, discuss or just mere opinion, then come out guns blazing.

This being a Sikh site so the presumption unquestionably is, we're all believers of Nanak's  1 God. [pls correct me if I'm wrong, although, I'm not particular and take humanity to be what it is with or without God]. As for me, I believe in the God of my forefathers - Sikh

I hope I've not overstepped, just my view.

Goodnight


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## JourneyOflife (Jul 14, 2015)

Ishna said:


> Hello
> 
> Related to Chaz Ji's recent thread on Amrit Vela, and respecting his wish not to derail the thread with speculation about what actually constitutes 'Amrit Vela', I thought I would start a new thread with my thoughts.
> 
> ...



I don't think the translation is one or the other. I don't see why they both can't co-exist at the same time, especially when they don't contradict each other. Getting up in the 'early light of dawn' is not exclusive to 'silently reciting'-I assume throughout the rest of the day- and vice versa. We can do both at the same time.

My quick thoughts on early-morning Amrit Vela: I think it is a positive thing. I'm not saying 3 am to 6 am is a more 'holy' window than the other 21 hours of the day, just that I can see the immense benefit in waking up before the rest of the world and having that personal conversation with your Guru, something which keeps you grounded in Gurbani throughout your day. I am not a regular Amrit Vela Sikh but I thoroughly enjoy the opportunities I do get to perform Nitnem with Sangat in the morning hours, and notice a change in my mood, thoughts and behaviour throughout the rest of the day.]

Of course I wouldn't expect someone who works the night shift to just stop working to read Bani in those hours, not when they could listen to it or be absorbed in the remembrance of Waheguru. But for most people who work a typical 9-5, it is possible to get up a few hours earlier and do the Nitnem, I don't think it is impossible, it is very much doable. But it requires discipline, and maybe that's the entire point of it. To discipline your mind to get up when the people around you are all asleep, wash yourself, change into clean clothes and then sit down to listen to the sacred words of the Guru, the same words that Guru Nanak spent his life singing when he travelled most of the known world on foot, the same words that Guru Arjan Dev Ji meditated on when he was sitting on the hot plate, the same words that Guru Gobind Singh Ji refused to neglect even in the midst of battle, stopping at the banks of the Sirsa river to sing Asa Di Vaar in the early hours of the morning even when the Khalsa was being pursued by the Mughals and Hill Rajas (this is right after the siege at Anandpur), I think to immerse yourself in those words when the world is most silent is a deeply spiritual experience in and of itself. Perhaps it is that discipline and experience that makes those early of the morning so magical.


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## Ishna (Jul 14, 2015)

Thanks for a beautiful post, @JourneyOflife Ji.   I think you've encapsulated the whole thing very nicely.

Refocusing and reminding oneself abut what's important in life at the start of one's day seems highly logical.  Like checking the tuning on a guitar before playing a song.  Whether our day-song starts at 5am or 5pm, the first thing to be done is tuning our instrument (our mind).


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## ravneet_sb (Sep 3, 2015)

Sat Sri Akaal,

"Mrit" is who can die
"Amrit" is "Immortal"

, 'ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

Means 

"Moment" when one's "thought process is connected" (thinking) of immortal nature (Amrit Vela) or "Undying Truth" , 

"Truth of Nature"  "Sach Naam"   "True Name" of "WORDS" which connects ones mind to "Undying Natures Truth"
which is praise of "Lord" / "Nature"  

which has given birth to all forms "Living" or "Non Living" 


There is No Jat/ Bhapa/ Chuda/ Mazbi/ Hindu/ Muslim/ Christian  and 
every "Human" or "SIKH" or "Learner" be of any man made caste/ creed/ religion.

Space/ Fire/ Water/ Atoms(Matter)/ Air (Undying Nature) which is cause of life of "Mortals"

Further "GURU's BANI" say
*
ਸਭੇ ਵੇਲਾ ਵਖਤ ਸਭਿ ਜੇ ਅਠੀ ਭਉ ਹੋਇ ॥*
_Sabẖe velā vakẖaṯ sabẖ je aṯẖī bẖa▫o ho▫e._
If at all times, at each and every moment, they live in the fear of God -

Have fear of undying nature not mortals.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Original (Sep 4, 2015)

ravneet_sb said:


> "Mrit" is who can die
> "Amrit" is "Immortal"


..source would be appreciated, but otherwise, consider this: Mrit [meaning *dead*, adjective in Punjabi] derived from Mrityu [noun] in Sanskrit is *Death*. The prefix "A" negates the meaning to effect it as "deathless", that is, "eternal"= *Amrit*


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## ravneet_sb (Sep 4, 2015)

Original said:


> ..source would be appreciated, but otherwise, consider this: Mrit [meaning *dead*, adjective in Punjabi] derived from Mrityu [noun] in Sanskrit is *Death*. The prefix "A" negates the meaning to effect it as "deathless", that is, "eternal"= *Amrit*


Sat Sri Akaal,

Please ignore, reject the contents, 

"GURU's BANI" is the only source, and written with own shallow perception.



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.


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## Original (Sep 5, 2015)

ravneet_sb said:


> Sat Sri Akaal,
> 
> Please ignore, reject the contents,
> 
> ...



Sat Sri Akaal,

Please ignore, reject the contents,

"GURU's BANI" is the only source, and written with own shallow perception.



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.
Click to expand...

Sorry Ravneet Ji - have to depart from your train of thought because "Bani is Guru and Guru is Bani, vich Bani Amrit Saray". God is Bani [waho waho Bani Nirankar ha], removing therefore all agency [perception] interventions. It is the "word" [anhad shabd] and the word is God. The composers of Gurbani used a special form [poetry] of communication to glorify the greatness of God and must accordingly be read within the concise meaning of literature a discipline, attending carefully to its literate and emotional content. However, that is not to say, it is for the bright n beautiful literate lot, far from it, our ancestors were illiterate and yet they remained connected, but the point for the want of clarification is that reading of Guru Ji di Bani requires literary tools to give it proper n concise interpretation with intended meaning and message to the best of one's endeavours. Reading skill therefore is deemed indespensible.

Good day !


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