# An Outsider's Thought On The 5ks



## Sicarius (Jul 11, 2012)

I am a new Sikhi. I am a Latino, and was raised a Catholic. I feel that this empowers me in some ways to look at new religions objectively.

I have respect for the 5ks, I understand their origin, and been moved by their meaning. However, what attracts me to Sikhism, is it's rejection of blind ritual and mythology. I consider the K's a choice in this way, as it is meant to honor the ancient history of persecution the Sikh's experience and their rebellion to it. However, to say a man has erred God by not wearing a beard, and a turban is obviously contrary core Sikh beliefs. This can be seen in that I believe it was the 9th or 10th Guru who introduced the obligation, thus making it something relatively new. The 5 K's is a culture practice showing honor to history of struggle alongside a modern maintenance and rememberance of it. However, it is obligatory to be a good Sikh is 100% contrary to everything I have read on Sikhism. 

I've heard the arguments that cutting one's hair is harming oneself. Yet Sikhs clip their nails... I've heard the argument that they only cut the dead part of the nail, but even this is untrue, all attached nails are as much living tissue as hair itself. The institution has become a dogmatic group identification function, which is fine, but it IS optional and more linked to Punjabi Sikh history than worship of God. This dichotomy is most notably shown in that many turbaned and kes-carrying Sikhs drink alcohol and eat bad food or just live unhealthy... The whole point of the symbol of the Kes is not harming oneself, it's a huge hypocrisy to simply maintain the superficiality of a symbol while debasing it's meaning. Living healthy, taking care of one's body and rejecting vice says far more of virtue than not cutting one's hair which has 0 functional use and is hypocritical if you clip your nails.

The focus of the Turban is to show proudly that one is Sikh and wear it like a crown. Yet one does not need a turban to be proud or walk like a Singh. If one wants to truly show their loyalty to Sikhdom to the world, then a tattoo would serve just as well. The turban is a cultural symbol to express a deeper meaning, yet that meaning can be expressed as well without it. Thus from my point of view, it is a choice.

In addition, the Kirpan, has little to no functional use nowadays as a weapon against injustice, being martially prepared and armed on your property is far more effective. 

Dedication to the 5ks is admirable, but from an objective outlook they are just socio-cultural practices reflecting a history of oppression in the Punjab in the 17th and 18th centuries...and have little to do with understanding of God or the ethics attached to it. They are outward symbols of inward meaning that are better lived through ethics than shown in through a costume. 

In my culture, I also have been taught from a young age that a short haircut with a trim beard represents cleanliness. I have left Catholicism for it's flawed outlook and organization, but I do not also need to leave my Latin cultural more's to become a Sikh from my POV.

 Will I encounter prejudice in my path to becoming a Sikh by holding this opinion? 
What branches/sects of Sikhism do not 'require' a turban, and a beard?  

What are your thoughts on my assertion upon the Ks?

Sincerely,
A New Sikh


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## Harry Haller (Jul 11, 2012)

> I have respect for the 5ks, I understand their origin, and been moved by their meaning. However, what attracts me to Sikhism, is it's rejection of blind ritual and mythology



This is an excellent reason to be attracted to Sikhism. For me Sikhism reflects the shortest path between a man and God, primarily due to these reasons. 



> However, to say a man has erred God by not wearing a beard, and a turban is obviously contrary core Sikh beliefs



I do not believe it possible for a Sikh to err God. I do not believe God has any interest per se in each individual activity we do. Judgement comes through Creation, not God, in my belief. God is no more likely to be erred by the lack of hair, than it is to be pleased by parrot squawking chanting of hymns, or the doing of good deeds. 



> The 5 K's is a culture practice showing honor to history of struggle alongside a modern maintenance and rememberance of it



I do not wear the 5 K's myself, and I am guilty of judging those who do, I expect the highest standards from our Amritdharis, those that are baptised and pledge to behave like good Sikhs. I expect them to behave almost like Guruji himself. If not, why would anyone go to all that trouble just for physical appearance? I do not consider my mental or physical state at a level hight enough to wear them, but one day I do intend to, it will be a proud day for me, not because I am wearing them, but because I will have earned them, you see, they are like pips on a Generals lapel, like a certificate of degree, a medal of honour, I do not believe one should just adopt the physical persona, and it certainly does not stop one being a good Sikh. In fact, my ideal Sikh is one who has lived, learned, and then chosen to give his head to the Guru. You may note that the 5 K's were worn by the tenth Guru. He wanted to give himself to us, when we consider ourselves ready, he would be us, we would be him, I think that is the general idea, but someone wiser than myself may correct me on this. 



> I've heard the arguments that cutting one's hair is harming oneself. Yet Sikhs clip their nails... I've heard the argument that they only cut the dead part of the nail, but even this is untrue, all attached nails are as much living tissue as hair itself. The institution has become a dogmatic group identification function, which is fine, but it IS optional and more linked to Punjabi Sikh history than worship of God. This dichotomy is most notably shown in that many turbaned and kes-carrying Sikhs drink alcohol and eat bad food or just live unhealthy... The whole point of the symbol of the Kes is not harming oneself, it's a huge hypocrisy to simply maintain the superficiality of a symbol while debasing it's meaning. Living healthy, taking care of one's body and rejecting vice says far more of virtue than not cutting one's hair which has 0 functional use and is hypocritical if you clip your nails.
> 
> The focus of the Turban is to show proudly that one is Sikh and wear it like a crown. Yet one does not need a turban to be proud or walk like a Singh. If one wants to truly show their loyalty to Sikhdom to the world, then a tattoo would serve just as well. The turban is a cultural symbol to express a deeper meaning, yet that meaning can be expressed as well without it. Thus from my point of view, it is a choice.
> 
> ...



Your arguments are spot on, in fact I pity any Sikh that views Sikhism in this fashion. As stated above, get the inside right first, and you may find your soul screams out in joy to be recognised as a Sikh, with all the pips, certificates and medals that you have rightly earned.

A big part of being a Sikh is being a social policeman, helping the weak, feeding the hungry, standing against oppression, fighting for the ultimate truth, not the truth that raises monuments to those we hung yesterday, but the ultimate truth, for this reason, once you have found yourself, once your outsides reflect your insides, and you look like a Sikh, it is easier for others in need of help to find you. 



> Will I encounter prejudice in my path to becoming a Sikh by holding this opinion?



possibly, but this opinion is irrelevant, it is the state of your heart, as you already know, that is more important. My own opinions have meant that within my limited circle of Sikhs, I am known as a fool, I wear that badge with pride 



> What branches/sects of Sikhism do not 'require' a turban, and a beard?



Any branch that does not require a turban and beard is surely as bad as one that did! 
You can comfortable be a Sikh without a turban and beard, do not worry about it too much, I don't. Forget about branches and sects, concentrate on your relationship with Creator (its the same Creator from Catholicism ), read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, in fact, read any and all books you can find, you may see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji shares many good facets, however, what sold it for me was the lack of pointless ritual, the attempt at breaking the caste system, equality for all sexes, acceptance of the Gay community, it is just a beautiful beautiful path, in fact I have stopped calling it a religion, as somehow that does not do it justice


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 11, 2012)

Harry Ji..very well put...thanks.

Seen a Banana..if it has SPOTS on the outside..its rotten on the inside...Havent yet come across a Banana that was rotten OUTSIDE..yet perfectly FRESH on the INSIDE !!! same for a SIKH...a SIKH that is 100% GURMATT/GURSIKH...INSIDE...will definitely SHINE on the OUTSIDE.
Many "spotted" bananas cum sikhs..strut about oblivious to their spots which actually show their rotten insides quite clearly...its definitley the INSIDE that rots first...its the LAW of nature...so I never beleive anyone who says..Dont look at my face..my heart is super clean...unfortunately the FACE is the ONLY part our eyes can see and judge....even in the Highest courts..the JUDGE can only SEE the Face/body...and decide whos good/bad/whos telling the truth/lieing....NO ONE can see the HEART....


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## Randip Singh (Jul 11, 2012)

I think you have the right attitude. 5 K's are not something to be put on because of dogma. It's an outward symbol or assertion of one individuality. I do have a problem with those people who attack those who cut their hai.

Our job is to be an example to them. Not talk down to them.

One thing also I have a problem with, is the so called bearded lady. I don't see how a Sikh gets anymore spirituality by making Sikh women not touch hair on their faces. That sems pretty unnatural to me. In other words, men are meant to have a beard, not women.

Then again, I love playing devils advocate.icecreamkudi


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## Ishna (Jul 11, 2012)

Careful not to turn the thread into a kesh debate hey.   

When so many 'amritdhari' Sikhs, people running around in the uniform are rotten bananas, then what's the point of wearing the uniform at all?

If most of the police you meet are corrupt, it doesn't matter if the pure cop wears his uniform or not - people are still going to be suspicious of him.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 11, 2012)

haha sisji, 

you can always tell if a fraud is wearing a uniform, its like counterfeit clothes, they always make a mistake because the heart isnt in it!

I think we all know people that try to hard to convince you of their holiness, you can spot them a mile off,


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## Archived_member14 (Jul 11, 2012)

Randip ji,



> One thing also I have a problem with, is the so called bearded lady. I don't see how a Sikh gets anymore spirituality by making Sikh women not touch hair on their faces. That sems pretty unnatural to me. In other words, men are meant to have a beard, not women.
> 
> Then again, I love playing devils advocate.icecreamkudi



I like to imagine that if you allowed this train of thought to run further, you might arrive at a conclusion that is more radical.
A human being is not a lion nor is he a horse. The hair of these animals serve a particular function. Given what human society is now and taking into account the vanity involved and the impracticality of keeping long hair. Human head and facial hair is actually meant to be cut short, not kept long. This applies both to men as well as women. 

And for Sikhs who insist that it is wrong to follow rituals, the reason not to keep hair uncut should be even more.


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## Rory (Jul 11, 2012)

Looks like this will be an interesting thread!! :interestedsingh:
Harryji, your first post in this thread made me think a lot, so thanks.

One thing, Sicarius-ji


			
				Sicarius said:
			
		

> I've heard the argument that they only cut the dead part of the nail,  but even this is untrue, all attached nails are as much living tissue as  hair itself.


This is wrong; the white part of the fingernail is made up of dead cells, the cells are literally not alive in that part of the nail.. this is just a fact.. they are as dead as dead skin.
Hair is different because nutrients continue to flow through it & therefore it's still alive, but *yes* hair can die also - if a hair falls out it is dead, or if the end of the hair begins to "split", or dry up and become brittle, then the end of the hair is dead.

Also, if you do not cut your fingernails they interfere with practical duties, and if you don't cut your fingernails, the top of thenail will eventually fall or break off anyways (let's remember how often we hear women complain of broken fingernails, even though they do their utmost to preserve them), because when they overgrow they become soft and bendy and tear off, or else very brittle and they snap off.

I think kesh is important because it reminds us that we are not the most authoritative force in the world; we tend to think that "trimmed" for men is handsome and "smooth-skinned" for women is sexy, but these are just cultural norms that the West has imposed on itself, there were many cultures who thought natural women were sexy (how much did the ancient Egyptians love Cleopatra?) but nowadays Western trends tend to go global.
*Basically* I'm saying it's a rejection of man's culturally-imposed and self-righteous "authority" over how we should look. Instead we should just let it be, we are all beautiful the way we were made, there should be no need to modify our _appearance_ beyond what is necessary for practical living.

(This is coming from someone who has had to endure a bit of stick for not shaving or cutting my hair in the past few months; I'm not old enough for my facial hair to "properly" grow, so I'm left with some stubbly fuzz instead. It's kind of like the hair on a kiwi. I don't mind at all, though!)

peacesign


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## Astroboy (Jul 11, 2012)

My suggestion to you and all new Sikhs who find the 5Ks controversial, to take things slowly. One at a time. You can start with wearing the Kara (Steel Bangle) and Learn one Paath to do daily.


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## linzer (Jul 15, 2012)

Sicarius said:


> I am a new Sikhi. I am a Latino, and was raised a Catholic. I feel that this empowers me in some ways to look at new religions objectively.





Sicarius said:


> I have respect for the 5ks, I understand their origin, and been moved by their meaning. However, what attracts me to Sikhism, is it's rejection of blind ritual and mythology. I consider the K's a choice in this way, as it is meant to honor the ancient history of persecution the Sikh's experience and their rebellion to it. However, to say a man has erred God by not wearing a beard, and a turban is obviously contrary core Sikh beliefs. This can be seen in that I believe it was the 9th or 10th Guru who introduced the obligation, thus making it something relatively new.


 
It was the 10<sup>th</sup> Guru, Guru Gobind Singh, but you should know that we regard all 10 gurus as the same illuminating force. Therefore it makes no real difference If it’s the first or the last. It’s is still and obligation for receiving amrit.
It's not necessary that you cut your hair,wear a turban or use any of the other 5k to go to Gurwara or study the S.G.G.S. .I know plenty of Indian Sikhs here in Mexico that don't but If one day you decide that you want to take Amrit then it would become an obligation. 
I think that one day I will receive Amrit so I've started to use the 5 k's . I regard not cutting my hair as accepting how look I am without vanity. I think people in general waste too much of their lives by not accepting themselves as they are.
I go to swim three times a week and I find it hugely amusing that it takes me less time to get dressed, comb and tie my hair and beard( which is quite long now) than some fellows with very short hair. They stand in front of the mirror with gel and blow dryers trying to get that one imaginary hair to stay in place. 
As to cleanliness, I think my hair is cleaner now than its' ever been since its always covered.
I wouldn't worry too much about it right now just keep reading Gurbani and Sikh history as well. 
Maybe one day you'll change your mind. I did.


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## chazSingh (Jul 16, 2012)

*Q&A with Yogi Bhajan*

_*Question:* Most Kundalini Yoga students let their hair grow. Is this necessary?_
*Answer:* No. You can practice with any length hair, but the hair was the first technique to raise the Kundalini energy. When the hair is at its natural full length and coiled over the anterior *fontanel*for men or the posterior fontanel for women, it draws pranic energy into the spine. The force of this downward positive energy causes the Kundalini energy to rise for balance. 
Actually, the hair was so important that the word for consciousness, kundalini, derives from the _kundal_ which means “a coil of the beloved’s hair.”

Also very enlightening is this video:
Why Yogis and Swamis have long hair and beards? Sadhguru      - YouTube



I tie my hair in a Kundal when i meditate...now although someone with cut hair can also meditate and reach high levels of concentration and suceed spiritually, i will try and utilize what i can within nature to help the kundalini rise and to balance my bodies energy and field.

If you are not interested in 'REALLY' experiencing god, whilst still alive in this body today, then it doesnt matter at all whether you wear the 5 k's or not...it becomes a ritual. 

If you are interested and want to 'TEST', 'EVALUATE' and 'EXPERIEMENT' with consciousness (God), then they are no longer a ritual, they become tools to aid the experiment....and if you reach your goal, then the 5 k's also stand you out like a lighthhouse so that others may find you and receive help from you (A True khalsa)


Hope this helps.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 16, 2012)

is this the same rising kundalini that is frowned on by the SGGS?


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## chazSingh (Jul 16, 2012)

harry haller said:


> is this the same rising kundalini that is frowned on by the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?


 
SGGS Ji Says:
k*u*(n)ddalan*ee* s*u*rajh*ee* sathasa(n)gath param*aa*na(n)dh g*u*r*oo* m*u*kh mach*aa* ||
_The Kundalini rises in the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation; through the Word of the Guru, they enjoy the Lord of Supreme Bliss._
_Svaiyay Mehl 5 
1402_ 

Please do not put words in the guru's mouth 

God bless all.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 16, 2012)

Chazji

With respect it is not me that is putting words in the Gurus Mouth. Let us look at the evidence. The word Kundalini is mentioned 5 times, according to SriGranth.org. It is in particular Kundalini Yoga that I feel Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji advises against.

The first is page 912. 



ਕਿਨਹੀ ਕੀਆ ਪਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥
किनही कीआ परविरति पसारा ॥
Kinhī kī▫ā parviraṯ pasārā.
Some make a big show of their worldly influence.
ਕਿਨਹੀ ਕੀਆ ਪੂਜਾ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਾ ॥
किनही कीआ पूजा बिसथारा ॥
Kinhī kī▫ā pūjā bisthārā.
Some make a big show of devotional worship.
ਕਿਨਹੀ ਨਿਵਲ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਮ ਸਾਧੇ ॥
किनही निवल भुइअंगम साधे ॥
Kinhī nival bẖu▫i▫angam sāḏẖe.
Some practice inner cleansing techniques, and control the breath through Kundalini Yoga.
ਮੋਹਿ ਦੀਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧੇ ॥੧॥
मोहि दीन हरि हरि आराधे ॥१॥
Mohi ḏīn har har ārāḏẖe. ||1||
I am meek; I worship and adore the Lord, Har, Har. ||1||
ਤੇਰਾ ਭਰੋਸਾ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥
तेरा भरोसा पिआरे ॥
Ŧerā bẖarosā pi▫āre.
I place my faith in You alone, O Beloved Lord.
ਆਨ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਵੇਸਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
आन न जाना वेसा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Ān na jānā vesā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
I do not know any other way. ||1||Pause||

I would not call that a huge blessing for the wonders of Kundalini yoga....

so lets go to number 2

P972



ਪੈਸੀਲੇ ਗਗਨ ਮਝਾਰੰ ॥
पैसीले गगन मझारं ॥
Paisīle gagan majẖāraŉ.
I have entered into the sky of the mind, and opened the Tenth Gate.
ਬੇਧੀਅਲੇ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਭੁਅੰਗਾ ॥
बेधीअले चक्र भुअंगा ॥
Beḏẖī▫ale cẖakar bẖuangā.
The chakras of the coiled Kundalini energy have been opened,
ਭੇਟੀਅਲੇ ਰਾਇ ਨਿਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
भेटीअले राइ निसंगा ॥२॥
Bẖetī▫ale rā▫e nisangā. ||2||
and I have met my Sovereign Lord King without fear. ||2||

No mention of yoga, but the mention of the word kundalini, used to illustrate a higher state of mind, in the same way that later in the Shabad, both the words 'vedas' and ' messenger of death' are used, merely as illustrative words

Hmmm still not convinced that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji advocates Kundalini Yoga, but lets move to number 3, P1043



ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਿਉ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਇਆ ॥੧੩॥
राम नाम बिनु किउ सुखु पाईऐ बिनु सतिगुर भरमु न जाइआ ॥१३॥
Rām nām bin ki▫o sukẖ pā▫ī▫ai bin saṯgur bẖaram na jā▫i▫ā. ||13||
But without the Lord's Name, how can anyone find peace? Without the True Guru, doubt is not dispelled. ||13||
ਨਿਉਲੀ ਕਰਮ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਮ ਭਾਠੀ ॥
निउली करम भुइअंगम भाठी ॥
Ni▫ulī karam bẖu▫i▫angam bẖāṯẖī.
Inner cleansing techniques, channeling the energy to raise the Kundalini to the Tenth Gate,
ਰੇਚਕ ਕੁੰਭਕ ਪੂਰਕ ਮਨ ਹਾਠੀ ॥
रेचक कु्मभक पूरक मन हाठी ॥
Recẖak kumbẖak pūrak man hāṯẖī.
inhaling, exhaling and holding the breath by the force of the mind -
ਪਾਖੰਡ ਧਰਮੁ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਉ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦ ਮਹਾ ਰਸੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧੪॥
पाखंड धरमु प्रीति नही हरि सउ गुर सबद महा रसु पाइआ ॥१४॥
Pakẖand ḏẖaram parīṯ nahī har sa▫o gur sabaḏ mahā ras pā▫i▫ā. ||14||
by empty hypocritical practices, Dharmic love for the Lord is not produced. Only through the Word of the Guru's Shabad is the sublime, supreme essence obtained. ||14||

Hmmm thats pretty definitive in my view, 'empty hypocritical practices' sums up my own view too pretty well. 

Ok, moving on to number 4 page 1343



ਨਿਵਲੀ ਕਰਮ ਭੁਅੰਗਮ ਭਾਠੀ ਰੇਚਕ ਪੂਰਕ ਕੁੰਭ ਕਰੈ ॥
निवली करम भुअंगम भाठी रेचक पूरक कु्मभ करै ॥
Nivlī karam bẖu▫angam bẖāṯẖī recẖak pūrak kumbẖ karai.
You may perform exercises of inner purification, and fire up the furnace of the Kundalini, inhaling and exhaling and holding the breath.
ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੋਝੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਭਰਮੇ ਭੂਲਾ ਬੂਡਿ ਮਰੈ ॥
बिनु सतिगुर किछु सोझी नाही भरमे भूला बूडि मरै ॥
Bin saṯgur kicẖẖ sojẖī nāhī bẖarme bẖūlā būd marai.
Without the True Guru, you will not understand; deluded by doubt, you shall drown and die.
ਅੰਧਾ ਭਰਿਆ ਭਰਿ ਭਰਿ ਧੋਵੈ ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਮਲੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਲਹੈ ॥
अंधा भरिआ भरि भरि धोवै अंतर की मलु कदे न लहै ॥
Anḏẖā bẖari▫ā bẖar bẖar ḏẖovai anṯar kī mal kaḏe na lahai.
The spiritually blind are filled with filth and pollution; they may wash, but the filth within shall never depart.
ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਫੋਕਟ ਸਭਿ ਕਰਮਾ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਜੀਗਰੁ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲੈ ॥੧॥
नाम बिना फोकट सभि करमा जिउ बाजीगरु भरमि भुलै ॥१॥
Nām binā fokat sabẖ karmā ji▫o bājīgar bẖaram bẖulai. ||1||
Without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, all their actions are useless, like the magician who deceives through illusions. ||1||

Hmmm another pretty definitive statement, 

and now finally number 5, the only statement that could possibly be misunderstood, and open to double meaning, P1402



ਜਿਨਹੁ ਬਾਤ ਨਿਸ੍ਚਲ ਧ੍ਰੂਅ ਜਾਨੀ ਤੇਈ ਜੀਵ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਬਚਾ ॥
जिनहु बात निस्चल ध्रूअ जानी तेई जीव काल ते बचा ॥
Jinahu bāṯ niscẖal ḏẖarū▫a jānī ṯe▫ī jīv kāl ṯe bacẖā.
Those who realize the Eternal, Unchanging Word of God, like Dhroo, are immune to death.
ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਤਰਿਓ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰੁ ਰੁਦ੍ਰੁ ਖਿਨ ਇਕ ਮਹਿ ਜਲਹਰ ਬਿੰਬ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਜਗੁ ਰਚਾ ॥
तिन्ह तरिओ समुद्रु रुद्रु खिन इक महि जलहर बि्मब जुगति जगु रचा ॥
Ŧinĥ ṯari▫o samuḏar ruḏar kẖin ik mėh jalhar bimb jugaṯ jag racẖā.
They cross over the terrifying world-ocean in an instant; the Lord created the world like a bubble of water.
ਕੁੰਡਲਨੀ ਸੁਰਝੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦ ਗੁਰੂ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਚਾ ॥
कुंडलनी सुरझी सतसंगति परमानंद गुरू मुखि मचा ॥
Kundlanī surjẖī saṯsangaṯ parmānanḏ gurū mukẖ macẖā.
The Kundalini rises in the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation; through the Word of the Guru, they enjoy the Lord of Supreme Bliss.
ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਮਨ ਬਚ ਕ੍ਰੰਮ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਸਚਾ ॥੫॥
सिरी गुरू साहिबु सभ ऊपरि मन बच क्रम सेवीऐ सचा ॥५॥
Sirī gurū sāhib sabẖ ūpar man bacẖ krėm sevī▫ai sacẖā. ||5||
The Supreme Guru is the Lord and Master over all; so serve the True Guru, in thought, word and deed. ||5||
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥
vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o.
Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o.
ਕਵਲ ਨੈਨ ਮਧੁਰ ਬੈਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੈਨ ਸੰਗ ਸੋਭ ਕਹਤ ਮਾ ਜਸੋਦ ਜਿਸਹਿ ਦਹੀ ਭਾਤੁ ਖਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
कवल नैन मधुर बैन कोटि सैन संग सोभ कहत मा जसोद जिसहि दही भातु खाहि जीउ ॥
Kaval nain maḏẖur bain kot sain sang sobẖ kahaṯ mā jasoḏ jisahi ḏahī bẖāṯ kẖāhi jī▫o.
You are lotus-eyed, with sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. Mother Yashoda invited You as Krishna to eat the sweet rice.
ਦੇਖਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਅਤਿ ਅਨੂਪੁ ਮੋਹ ਮਹਾ ਮਗ ਭਈ ਕਿੰਕਨੀ ਸਬਦ ਝਨਤਕਾਰ ਖੇਲੁ ਪਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
देखि रूपु अति अनूपु मोह महा मग भई किंकनी सबद झनतकार खेलु पाहि जीउ ॥
Ḏekẖ rūp aṯ anūp moh mahā mag bẖa▫ī kinknī sabaḏ jẖanaṯkār kẖel pāhi jī▫o.
Gazing upon Your supremely beautiful form, and hearing the musical sounds of Your silver bells tinkling, she was intoxicated with delight.
ਕਾਲ ਕਲਮ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹਾਥਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਉਨੁ ਮੇਟਿ ਸਕੈ ਈਸੁ ਬੰਮ੍ਯ੍ਯੁ ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧਰਤ ਹੀਐ ਚਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
काल कलम हुकमु हाथि कहहु कउनु मेटि सकै ईसु बम्यु ग्यानु ध्यानु धरत हीऐ चाहि जीउ ॥
Kāl kalam hukam hāth kahhu ka▫un met sakai īs bamm▫yu ga▫yān ḏẖeān ḏẖaraṯ hī▫ai cẖāhi jī▫o.
Death's pen and command are in Your hands. Tell me, who can erase it? Shiva and Brahma yearn to enshrine Your spiritual wisdom in their hearts.
ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥੬॥
सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥१॥६॥
Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||1||6||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||
ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਪਰਮ ਧਾਮ ਸੁਧ ਬੁਧ ਨਿਰੀਕਾਰ ਬੇਸੁਮਾਰ ਸਰਬਰ ਕਉ ਕਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
राम नाम परम धाम सुध बुध निरीकार बेसुमार सरबर कउ काहि जीउ ॥
Rām nām param ḏẖām suḏẖ buḏẖ nirīkār besumār sarbar ka▫o kāhi jī▫o.
You are blessed with the Lord's Name, the supreme mansion, and clear understanding. You are the Formless, Infinite Lord; who can compare to You?
ਸੁਥਰ ਚਿਤ ਭਗਤ ਹਿਤ ਭੇਖੁ ਧਰਿਓ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਹਰਿਓ ਨਖ ਬਿਦਾਰਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
सुथर चित भगत हित भेखु धरिओ हरनाखसु हरिओ नख बिदारि जीउ ॥
Suthar cẖiṯ bẖagaṯ hiṯ bẖekẖ ḏẖari▫o harnākẖas hari▫o nakẖ biḏār jī▫o.
For the sake of the pure-hearted devotee Prahlaad, You took the form of the man-lion, to tear apart and destroy Harnaakhash with your claws.
ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਪਦਮ ਆਪਿ ਆਪੁ ਕੀਓ ਛਦਮ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲਖੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਤਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
संख चक्र गदा पदम आपि आपु कीओ छदम अपर्मपर पारब्रहम लखै कउनु ताहि जीउ ॥
Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā paḏam āp āp kī▫o cẖẖaḏam aprampar pārbarahm lakẖai ka▫un ṯāhi jī▫o.
You are the Infinite Supreme Lord God; with your symbols of power, You deceived Baliraja; who can know You?
ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥੭॥
सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥२॥७॥
Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||2||7||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||2||7||
ਪੀਤ ਬਸਨ ਕੁੰਦ ਦਸਨ ਪ੍ਰਿਆ ਸਹਿਤ ਕੰਠ ਮਾਲ ਮੁਕਟੁ ਸੀਸਿ ਮੋਰ ਪੰਖ ਚਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
पीत बसन कुंद दसन प्रिआ सहित कंठ माल मुकटु सीसि मोर पंख चाहि जीउ ॥
Pīṯ basan kunḏ ḏasan pari▫a sahiṯ kanṯẖ māl mukat sīs mor pankẖ cẖāhi jī▫o.
As Krishna, You wear yellow robes, with teeth like jasmine flowers; You dwell with Your lovers, with Your mala around Your neck, and You joyfully adorn Your head with the crow of pea{censored} feathers.

Reading the above, it is clear the concept of Kundalini is sitting surrounded by many other concepts and a few deities, Krishna, Baliraja, Prahlaad, Shiva, Brahma, 

Clearly this is another reference to Vedic practices, and kundalini is mentioned to illustrate the bliss felt. By your logic,  Krishna, Baliraja, Prahlaad, Shiva, Brahma all existed too?

So there you have it, 5 references, 2 possibly open to debate, 3 quite definitive


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## chazSingh (Jul 16, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> 
> With respect it is not me that is putting words in the Gurus Mouth. Let us look at the evidence. The word Kundalini is mentioned 5 times, according to SriGranth.org.
> 
> ...


 
God Bless


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## Harry Haller (Jul 16, 2012)

Chazji

let us be succinct here.


Inner cleansing techniques, channeling the energy to raise the Kundalini to the Tenth Gate, inhaling, exhaling and holding the breath by the force of the mind. By empty hypocritical practices, Dharmic love for the Lord is not produced. Only through the Word of the Guru's Shabad is the sublime, supreme essence obtained

Now to me, this requires no help in understanding, its quite simple, channeling the energy to raise the kundalini, is an inner cleansing technique and is clearly stated as a empty hypocritical practice. Its really quite simple, I do not know why you are complicating a very simple quotation.

You have written




> Again, missed the the point of the gurbani, read and deeply contemplate.


 You claim to have controlled your ego, but I find a lot of your definitive statements quite egoistical, with respect brother.






> 'Empty Practice' of anything is a 'Ritual' - the practice will not breed deep love for Guru/God i.e the Dharmic Love for the lord as mentioned.





>


 I agree, but this is not the debate, this is your defence to kundalini being described as an empty practice in the SGGS,





> inhaling and controlling the breath by the Force of the 'Mind'.
> The Mind can NOT lead you to God, God is beyiond the Mind. So we need to stop thinking the with the MIND and 'thinking'.


 I want my mind to understand God and the order of God, anything else is just 'inner cleansing', in effect, without the understanding of your mind, do you have any understanding at all?




> Anyone can pick up a book on breathing/yoga/kundalini yoga...and think they will experience god, or some magic, or get some powers...
> This will not lead them anywhere, it is a blind practice...they will fail.
> If they have a deep love, thirst for God, god will make their effors VERY FRUITFUL...the kundalini will Naturally Rise, Chakras wi





> ll open and all else that HE so wishes....with Yoga or Without.




But we have already established that trying to raise your kundalini is nothing more than an empty practice, so I am confused as to why you persist in making this rising kundalini, some sort of important Sikh practice


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## Searching (Jul 16, 2012)

For me Yoga is a type of exercise to keep healthy. As long as it practiced for that reason, its fine.  
Sikhism does not advocate any special postures or exercises by which God can be experienced or experienced faster.

Can someone explain to me what is kundalini Yaga and how is it related to Sikhism especially in respect to 3HO guys.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 16, 2012)

http://www.3ho.org/kundalini-yoga/kundalini-yoga-yb/

It is not related to Sikhism in any way shape or form, 3HO have taken it to their bossom, but then they also bow before a statue of Baba Sri Chand too, each to his own....

The Guru that I believe in,  is only interested in your mind thinking and acting within Hukam. He does not need any money, he does not need an army of Yoga instructors,  Sikh philosophy stands on its own, it does need the help of ritualistic Vedic practices to support it.


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## linzer (Jul 16, 2012)

The type of yoga isn't even vedic. He made his exercises up as he went " do this" (Imagine raising your arms at a 45 degree angle) Keep doing this for eleven minutes now repeat Har Har Har." Your sitmulating your whatzit gland" I joke not the classes are like this.
Yogi Bhajan tried to give legitamacy to his invented form of yoga by attributing it to the Sikh Gurus, calling it the "golden chain".This is one of the many thing that I find offensive about thier practice. You can call it what ever you want just don't call it Sikh.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jul 16, 2012)

http://www.3ho.org/kundalini-yoga/shabd-guru-tech/what-is-shabd-guru/

See here Shabad Guru has no mention of Nanak.


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## Luckysingh (Jul 17, 2012)

harry haller said:


> is this the same rising kundalini that is frowned on by the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?


 
Harryji, after looking at the gurbani references, i'm sure you can see the actual messages with regards to kundalini yoga practices. Gurbani does *not* advise us against it *or* in it's favour.- It simply instructs us that 'empty ritualistic practices' are not the way to experience the bliss of creator.

Gurbani does acknowlede that a kundalini energy may exist within us and that it may rise for certain dedicated indivuals that follow and live by the shabad guru in a gurmat manner. - This explains that one does NOT need kundalini practices of breathing. .etc.. to attain this risen state of bliss BUT one can achieve this state by living by the word of the shabad.

Now, that leaves us with the simple explanation in gurbani -that if a state of such bliss or raised kundalini energy does exist within us, then this can be achieved by being Gurmat and living by the word and NOT by  the empty practices of breathing, yoga... etc..-

_-This is what the gurbani quotes tell us, simply that one does NOT need yoga practices to raise their so called kundalini. However, gurbani does NOT deny that such an energy may exist, neither does it claim that this state of bliss can onlly be attained by raising one's kundalini._
_-_
_-This leaves us all with a simple question of 'does this kundalini energy  actually exist?'-_
_So, if we want to be fools, then we can spend our energies on trying to find and prove this so called energy, BUT, Shouldn't we just be Channeling these very energies into being Gurmat instead and then letting this so called kundalini be as it is and let it rise, if that's what it does and if it does exist ?- _

_So, let it be if it is instead of trying to find and prove it. _

I hope that my explanation is a little clear to help someone who may be trying to find and understand this 'kundalini'.

 I can confirm that an elevated state of blissful consciousness and awareness may indeed exist, if this is what one may call a kundalini rising. However, you do NOT need a yoga practice to attain this elevation, it can occur in other ways and by being more gurmat in practice.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh


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## Harry Haller (Jul 17, 2012)

Luckyji



> Harryji, after looking at the gurbani references, i'm sure you can see the actual messages with regards to kundalini yoga practices. Gurbani does not advise us against it or in it's favour.- It simply instructs us that 'empty ritualistic practices' are not the way to experience the bliss of creator.




You may perform exercises of inner purification, and fire up the furnace of the Kundalini, inhaling and exhaling and holding the breath.

Without the True Guru, you will not understand; deluded by doubt, you shall drown and die.

references and page numbers on my last post, are you sure about that Luckyji?

Why do we need to even contemplate our kundalinis, and who cares whether it rises or not? We are Sikhs, we have something better than kundalini, Naam. 




> Gurbani does acknowlede that a kundalini energy may exist within us and that it may rise for certain dedicated indivuals that follow and live by the shabad guru in a gurmat manner. - This explains that one does NOT need kundalini practices of breathing. .etc.. to attain this risen state of bliss BUT one can achieve this state by living by the word of the shabad.



Gurbani also acknowledges that Weed gets you high, and into a state of false bliss, are you suggesting that someone who has a risen kundalini is in the same state as a Gursikh who has found Naam? , because if that is the case, then one could achieve the same state as being stoned by living the word of the shabad. Why do we need to borrow terms and concepts from other religions, when our own not only suffices, but has been refined to a state possibly much higher?



> However, gurbani does NOT deny that such an energy may exist, neither does it claim that this state of bliss can onlly be attained by raising one's kundalini.
> -



This is a poor argument, by this principle, are you saying that Bestiality is ok for Sikhs, as it is not denied in Gurbani. Gurbani has no interest in this 'state of bliss'. In fact, Gurbani is more concerned with how you live, and how you effect your surroundings than new age 'states of bliss'. The Gurmukh state of bliss is as a result of understanding, and mental and physical surrender to Creator, all roads do not lead to Rome, they are two different states of bliss we are talking about, one is for the self, one is for God. 


-





> This leaves us all with a simple question of 'does this kundalini energy actually exist?'-
> So, if we want to be fools, then we can spend our energies on trying to find and prove this so called energy, BUT, Shouldn't we just be Channeling these very energies into being Gurmat instead and then letting this so called kundalini be as it is and let it rise, if that's what it does and if it does exist ?-



I would love nothing better, however, if we ignore the growing invasion of Vedic practices in Sikhism, then we will find the religion that we love, veering away from the simplicity of what it stands for,  and becoming a mirror of Hinduism. 



> So, let it be if it is instead of trying to find and prove it.



I could not care less whether it exists or not,  however, I refuse to sit and watch, as more and more non Sikh concepts are lauded as Sikh just because they got a mention in the SGGS. The whole concept of Kundalini clearly does not pass the litmus test of Gurmatt.


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## chazSingh (Jul 17, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> 
> let us be succinct here.
> 
> ...


 
God bless all.


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## chazSingh (Jul 17, 2012)

linzer said:


> The type of yoga isn't even vedic. He made his exercises up as he went " do this" (Imagine raising your arms at a 45 degree angle) Keep doing this for eleven minutes now repeat Har Har Har." Your sitmulating your whatzit gland" I joke not the classes are like this.
> Yogi Bhajan tried to give legitamacy to his invented form of yoga by attributing it to the Sikh Gurus, calling it the "golden chain".This is one of the many thing that I find offensive about thier practice. You can call it what ever you want just don't call it Sikh.


 
Yogi Bhajan went to the U.S at a time where the generation were crying out for an experience higher and deeper than the headaches of their daily lives...they wanted more...to escape...and they turned to drugs to try and get that experience.

Yogi Ji, single handedly bought these people together and showed them a way to get their spiritual fix without the need for drugs. He showed them how to balance their bodies energies when their energies were probably all over the place with the use of drugs, and their mental state.

He took them out of their mental tortures and showed them some light...and while doing this he shone the light of SGGS Ji to them to give them meaning and direction.

The Yoga and SGGS Ji prepared their bodies (physical and spiritual) and their mind to open up to the Shabad Guru Within and to raise their consciousness.

This was the method he used...and he worked wonders on the population.
And before criticing Him, maybe we should all think if we could ever even just do something so amazing as that.

He spent his life uplifting others...there is nothing more corageous than that. He once said...if you uplift another person...god will uplift you...this is divine law and a promise form god.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 17, 2012)

Chazji

You are right, let us not dwell on the heresy, womanising, and business dealings of dear Yogiji (but if you really insist, http://www.rickross.com/groups/3ho.html)

 In that vein, below is an article about all the great things Hitler did. 

http://grantjkidney.com/6-good-things-hitler-did/

Besides the events that everyone since childhood has been told of, particularly the story of the holocaust, there were many astonishing acts carried about by Hitler’s government that few are familiar with. The following are six good achievements made by the Third Reich that radically set the stage for future advancement in many particular fields, sciences, and social norms.

1.) No smoking! Hitler was vehemently anti-smoking. The Nazi’s were also the first to link smoking to the contraction of cancer. Source.

2.) The Hitler Mobile? Hitler wanted every German, whether rich or poor, to have a car. And thus he invented the Volkswagen (“People’s Car”). Source.

3.) Spare some change? Before coming into power in 1933, mass unemployment crippled the German economy. The global depression of that era made it so that a wheelbarrow full of money couldn’t even buy a loaf of bread. When the Nazis stormed on to the scene, they put everyone back to work. Over night, the wheels of the economy were turning once more and money was flowing back into people’s pockets. Source.

4.) It’s his way or the highway! Every time you hop on to the freeway to get somewhere faster than taking all the back roads, thank Hitler. That’s right, Hitler invented the highway system (“Autobahn” in German). Source.

5.) This little light of mine… I’m gunna let it shine! The Olympic torch relay ceremony was Hitler’s idea for the 1936 Berlin Olympic games. We haven’t since gotten rid of the ceremony. Source.

6.) Save the whales! Hitler and many top Nazis were environmentalist types who cared deeply about animals and their rights. The Nazis were among the first to put in place laws protecting animals from abuse. Source.

Aside from the above examples are many countless others wherein Hitler used his extraordinary power as dictator to push both good and evil policies. Again, it’s important to realize the “yin yang” concept as alluded to prior when attempting to make sense of such information concerning the person and achievements of Adolf Hitler.

Maybe we should do a series, next week, Pol Pot, followed by Charles Manson, Genghis Khan, and we might even get round to Judas!


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## chazSingh (Jul 17, 2012)

harry haller said:


> http://www.3ho.org/kundalini-yoga/kundalini-yoga-yb/
> 
> It is not related to Sikhism in any way shape or form, 3HO have taken it to their bossom, but then they also bow before a statue of Baba Sri Chand too, each to his own....
> 
> ...


 
god bless all


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## Harry Haller (Jul 17, 2012)

> Guru Ji is interested in your Soul  because if your soul stops being a slave to your mind, your actions start to become pure again.



Are you suggesting that the mind is completely impure? the only way to be pure is not to be a slave to your mind? I would disagree, I would say cleanse the mind, and allow your soul to be a slave to a cleansed mind, which would result in your actions becoming pure. This, however, does require hard work and understanding 




> Guru Ji is interested in guiding and developing your consciousness to a
> level where you can experience and live by your creator (no one can describe this state of being...not even the guru ji's could)...has to be experienced....



Only YOU can be responsible for developing your consciousness, with the Gurus grace


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## chazSingh (Jul 17, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> 
> You are right, let us not dwell on the heresy, womanising, and business dealings of dear Yogiji (but if you really insist, http://www.rickross.com/groups/3ho.html)
> 
> ...


 
Harry Ji,

Unless you YOURSELF are 100% certain that Satnaam Yogi Ji was a Womanising Bla Bla Bla...then you should be very careful (for the sake of your spiritual journey) what you say and believe.

279
Slandering the Saints, the intellect is polluted.

sa(n)th kai dhookhan sobhaa thae heen ||
Slandering the Saints, one's reputation is lost.

sa(n)th kae hathae ko rakhai n koe ||
One who is cursed by a Saint cannot be saved.

sa(n)th kai dhookhan thhaan bhrasatt hoe ||
Slandering the Saints, one's place is defiled.

sa(n)th kirapaal kirapaa jae karai ||
But if the Compassionate Saint shows His Kindness,

naanak sa(n)thasa(n)g ni(n)dhak bhee tharai ||1||
O Nanak, in the Company of the Saints, the slanderer may still be saved 


99.9% of the population that is affected by the 5 thieves (including Rick Ross) will try to torment, slander, lie, create problems, try to create obstacles for the 1% that have become pure (the TRUE sants). Have we not already learnt this lesson from the Lives of Jesus, the Guru's etc....how many more pure souls must God send to earth to show us this message...yet we still do not learn.

I Believe Yogi Ji was Brahm Giani. You may believe otherwise...but unless you YOURSELF are 100% certain that he was impure, then we should not make judgement on him.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 17, 2012)

Chazji

If I am wrong, I still have the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to fall back on, if you are wrong, you will have a lot of philosophies to unlearn, and will have spent time chasing concepts that do not have any place in Sikhism. Out of the two of us, I would say your spiritual journey is more at risk than mine..

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji P303

ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਮੰਨੈ ਓਹੁ ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਮੁਠਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ पूरे गुर का हुकमु न मंनै ओहु मनमुखु अगिआनु मुठा बिखु माइआ ॥ Pūre gur kā hukam na mannai oh manmukẖ agi▫ān muṯẖā bikẖ mā▫i▫ā. One who does not obey the Hukam, the Command of the Perfect Guru - that self-willed manmukh is plundered by his ignorance and poisoned by Maya.

ਓਸੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੂੜੁ ਕੂੜੋ ਕਰਿ ਬੁਝੈ ਅਣਹੋਦੇ ਝਗੜੇ ਦਯਿ ਓਸ ਦੈ ਗਲਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ओसु अंदरि कूड़ु कूड़ो करि बुझै अणहोदे झगड़े दयि ओस दै गलि पाइआ ॥ Os anḏar kūṛ kūṛo kar bujẖai aṇhoḏe jẖagṛe ḏa▫yi os ḏai gal pā▫i▫ā. Within him is falsehood, and he sees everyone else as false; the Lord has tied these useless conflicts around his neck.

ਓਹੁ ਗਲ ਫਰੋਸੀ ਕਰੇ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੀ ਓਸ ਦਾ ਬੋਲਿਆ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਭਾਇਆ ॥ ओहु गल फरोसी करे बहुतेरी ओस दा बोलिआ किसै न भाइआ ॥ Oh gal farosī kare bahuṯerī os ḏā boli▫ā kisai na bẖā▫i▫ā. He babbles on and on, but the words he speaks please no one.

ਓਹੁ ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਹੰਢੈ ਜਿਉ ਰੰਨ ਦਹਾਗਣਿ ਓਸੁ ਨਾਲਿ ਮੁਹੁ ਜੋੜੇ ਓਸੁ ਭੀ ਲਛਣੁ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ओहु घरि घरि हंढै जिउ रंन दोहागणि ओसु नालि मुहु जोड़े ओसु भी लछणु लाइआ ॥ Oh gẖar gẖar handẖai ji▫o rann ḏohāgaṇ os nāl muhu joṛe os bẖī lacẖẖaṇ lā▫i▫ā. He wanders from house to house like an abandoned woman; whoever associates with him is stained by the mark of evil as well.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਅਲਿਪਤੋ ਵਰਤੈ ਓਸ ਦਾ ਪਾਸੁ ਛਡਿ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ ਬਹਿ ਜਾਇਆ ॥ गुरमुखि होइ सु अलिपतो वरतै ओस दा पासु छडि गुर पासि बहि जाइआ ॥ Gurmukẖ ho▫e so alipaṯo varṯai os ḏā pās cẖẖad gur pās bahi jā▫i▫ā. Those who become Gurmukh avoid him; they forsake his company and sit hear the Guru.

Here is the 3HO website http://www.3ho.org/, do a find for the word 'Sikh' on the first page, results, 0

In fact, after perusing, you would be hard pressed to find anything other than Yogi this, and Yogi that, anyone would think he was the leader of some sort of cult....

I am 100% we have a man here with great obvious talents, that instead of using it for the panth, has used it for his own ends. I do not doubt his ability or his understanding, but power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, pity really, he could have done wonders for Sikhism


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## chazSingh (Jul 17, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Are you suggesting that the mind is completely impure? the only way to be pure is not to be a slave to your mind? I would disagree, I would say cleanse the mind, and allow your soul to be a slave to a cleansed mind, which would result in your actions becoming pure. This, however, does require hard work and understanding
> So YOU (soul) want to be a slave to a computer (mind)?
> ofcourse We need the mind to function in creation...but the mind is to be used by us (soul)...not to make us a slave
> 
> ...


 
God bless all.


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## chazSingh (Jul 17, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> 
> If I am wrong, I still have the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to fall back on, if you are wrong, you will have a lot of philosophies to unlearn, and will have spent time chasing concepts that do not have any place in Sikhism. Out of the two of us, I would say your spiritual journey is more at risk than mine..
> 
> But you say you want to live by the *Truth*, by the hukam....so If we are not 100% sure of something *'ourself'*, should we make judgement on the other person?


 
The Story is of blind faith or Saying to your guru "you're warning me of fakesters, how do i know that you are not fake? i'm planting the seeds like you say (forgiveness, compassion, love, charity, sharing etc...I'm doing my simran with single minded focus during amrit vela and whenever i can....now show me the proof whatever it may be that takes away my doubts, like you say in SGGS Ji...otherwise you are just as fake as the others".

When Guru Ji starts to make things known to you in whichever way he so wishes...then you retrun to SGGS Ji and you read it again..and you think "omg, so thats what happened...you were not lying to me.." and then a few months later you return and you read again and more things become reality from Gurbani...and the love just wells up inside because all your life you've just been blindly following, BUT NOW the real experiencing has begun.

And when you start to actually experience the truths, then you starts seeing the truth's in other souls and beings...you start to feel the love in their words and actions (including Yogi bhajan - for me anyway). He has done many lectures on Japji and other bani...they're so uplifting. It's the feeling you get inside when you hear the words/Truth...its like God telling you this is genuine stuff..this guy is speaking the truth. That inner feeling means more to me that the views of others about a person.

And then you want to share the love and try to help others to feel it, but you know that the mere mention of religion, or anything spiritual will make the Wife scream and shout...and you start to feel the negativity around you from others also that don't 'Yet' understand..

It's all part of the journey....and i'm still learning and a total beginner to everything...but i've learnt so much from these forums and from other blessed souls that take part.


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## Ishna (Jul 17, 2012)

A friend once sent away for a 'spiritual name'.  She sent me a copy of the email she got back.  It said in it, that Yogi Bhajan gave the name 'Kaur' to women.

What does that tell you?

Chazji, you need to be careful, charisma doesn't make someone enlightened.


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## Ishna (Jul 17, 2012)

Although I will add, aside from the fluff, his legacy has brought some excellent new minds and many resources to Sikhi in the West.  There will always be those more interested in things other than Truth though.  But at least there are bread crumbs for the astute to follow to Satguru Ji.

People have cited examples of Guru Nanak missing from the 3HO website, etc, and this is a positive thing - it removes some of the blur and makes things a bit clearer for the true seekers.  I think that is a margin to their credit.


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## chazSingh (Jul 17, 2012)

Ishna said:


> A friend once sent away for a 'spiritual name'. She sent me a copy of the email she got back. It said in it, that Yogi Bhajan gave the name 'Kaur' to women.
> 
> What does that tell you?
> 
> Chazji, you need to be careful, charisma doesn't make someone enlightened.


 
What is wrong with that? why would your friend want a spritual name? is Kaur not good enough? could this be what Yogi ji was implying? 

whats with a spiritual name...surely singh for a male and kaur for a female would suffice.?  is this maybe not what he meant? 

If someone came to me and asked for a spitiual name...i wouldnt need to be enlightened to reply back "here you go...have kaur" implying...isnt Kaur good enough for you? 

Also, who replied to the email...was it Yogi Ji, or someone else as a messanger?

God bless all.


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## chazSingh (Jul 17, 2012)

Ishna said:


> Although I will add, aside from the fluff, his legacy has brought some excellent new minds and many resources to Sikhi in the West. There will always be those more interested in things other than Truth though. But at least there are bread crumbs for the astute to follow to Satguru Ji.
> 
> People have cited examples of Guru Nanak missing from the 3HO website, etc, and this is a positive thing - it removes some of the blur and makes things a bit clearer for the true seekers. I think that is a margin to their credit.


 
We are going on a path to experience the formless...attachment to pictures and imagery eventually will hold us back from taking that last step. So yes i think not having pictures sometimes helps a truth seeker pick out whats important and what isnt. Taking the ritual aspects out from the beginning will help immensley


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## Harry Haller (Jul 17, 2012)

chazSingh said:


> We are going on a path to experience the formless...attachment to pictures and imagery eventually will hold us back from taking that last step. So yes i think not having pictures sometimes helps a truth seeker pick out whats important and what isnt. Taking the ritual aspects out from the beginning will help immensley



Pity he did not extend that line of thinking to pictures of himself lol

There are 13 pictures of the great Yogi http://www.3ho.org/ on the first page, your argument is moot, my dear brother, I particularly liked the Yogi Calendar


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## chazSingh (Jul 17, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Pity he did not extend that line of thinking to pictures of himself lol
> 
> There are 13 pictures of the great Yogi http://www.3ho.org/ on the first page, your argument is moot, my dear brother, I particularly liked the Yogi Calendar


 
unfortunately, as shown in all religions and followings...the *many* will get sidetracked and end up in the same mess...

But as Dear Ishna Ji said the *'Truth Seeker' *will find the crumbs of truth and be guided.
We have to understand from their view point...they didnt know sikhi...not all follow sikhi...but to them he came and showed them some 'light' when they felt lost. That in itself is amazing, so to them pictures of Yogi ji would remind them of what he did for them.
The ones who were amazed with Sikhi may keep pictures of the Guru Ji's also.

In the end, at some point the need for pictures/photos dissapears when we draw closer and closer to God.  

I should now do some actual work  .. god bless all and nice discussion even though we have guided the topic away again


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## Ishna (Jul 17, 2012)

chazSingh said:


> What is wrong with that? why would your friend want a spritual name? is Kaur not good enough? could this be what Yogi ji was implying?
> 
> whats with a spiritual name...surely singh for a male and kaur for a female would suffice.?  is this maybe not what he meant?
> 
> ...



Chazji perhaps I was not clear.

The friend was very interested in 3HO at the time.  3HO offer to provide you with a spiritual name.  She sent away for one.  In the letter they sent her back with her new spiritual name 'something Kaur' it said something like 'Yogi Bhajan blessed women with the name of Kaur' implying that is was not Guru Gobind Singh Ji who did this, but the yogiji.

[update] Actually in checking my facts just now, it turns out Yogi Bhajan has given Kaur to women and Singh to men.  http://www.3ho.org/spiritual-names/faqs/#faq4 

Good on him! ... :whatzpointkudi:


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## Ishna (Jul 17, 2012)

Of course, it could be said that I'm reading the FAQ incorrectly.  Perhaps it is speaking specifically about the 'spiritual name' given by 3HO.  And that's fine, Yogi Bhajan was free to arrange the names however he saw fit.

But it does blur the line between amritdhari Sikh and the spiritual name of a yogi of this group.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 17, 2012)

oh its gets better than that, Yogiji can also do a better job than the SGGS !!

*WHAT IF I WAS GIVEN A NAME FROM THE SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB AT BIRTH?
Any name that comes from the Siri Guru Granth Sahib carries the divine energy and powerful language, Gurbani. If you meditate upon it, it can act as a guide in your life.
For some people, however, their given names – even if they come from the Siri Guru Granth Sahib – carry a lot of past associations, which may or may not have strong spiritual components. It is perfectly acceptable to ask for another name, knowing that this name is specifically for the purpose of building your spiritual identity and living your spiritual destiny. It is between you and your consciousness how you decide to approach it. In any case, it’s important to feel that your decision is right for you.*

What a guy! btw, the name Yogi Bhajan is mentioned 13 times on this page!


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## SaintSoldier1699 (Jul 17, 2012)

Sikhism is simple living at its best.  Kundalini seems complex and generally unheard of until 3H0 brought it to the West.  

So, how can something so simple be so complex ;-) if its for the masses?

Sikhism uplifts in a simple way, basic life lessons, associate with uplifted people and live a true doubt free life by not taking short cuts!


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## linzer (Jul 17, 2012)

Yogi Bhajan gave them a cult to be attached to, one vice for another. Don't give me this "He was sooooo noble B******T. He was an opportunist who did this to make money which he made lots of.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 17, 2012)

> he was an opportunist who did this to make money which he made lots of.



I don't think he made that much money myself, but do peruse some of his websites, 

a real tribute to Sikhi!

http://www.akalsecurity.com/

http://www.goldentemple.com/

I feel these are clearly more interested in spreading the message rather than money making,  unless I am missing something, 

Chazji is right though, we are moving away from the topic, and this is like shooting fish in a barrel


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## chazSingh (Jul 17, 2012)

harry haller said:


> I don't think he made that much money myself, but do peruse some of his websites,
> 
> a real tribute to Sikhi!
> 
> ...


 
God bless you.

should we stop opening businesses because we are truth seekers? you could argue that those business are for helping others? healthy food manufacturing? security for people? 

god didnt create the creation so that we sit around in begging bowls..

i would think he wants us to share, earn honestly and seek the truth? 

ofcourse there will be some rotten souls amongst there group..there are many in sikh circles and other groups ...but god bless the ones that are trying to live by these principles  i would think Happy, healthy and holy apply to all mankind and not just to their group.


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## chazSingh (Jul 17, 2012)

SaintSoldier1699 said:


> Sikhism is simple living at its best. Kundalini seems complex and generally unheard of until 3H0 brought it to the West.
> 
> So, how can something so simple be so complex ;-) if its for the masses?
> 
> Sikhism uplifts in a simple way, basic life lessons, associate with uplifted people and live a true doubt free life by not taking short cuts!


 
I agree,  Gurbani is simple living...but why is 99.9% of the populations wondering around aimlessly? why are there forums like this fillled with 1000's of opinions over something written so simply in Gurbani?

Yogi Ji, got many many lost souls doing Amrit Vela, 5 banis, Simran, seva...even if only 1 of them is uplifted, then its a job well done 
Yes, he got them doing Yoga, maybe those souls needed it.
I thank Yogi Ji, for inspring Snatam Kaur into Sikhi...she sings the most beautiful shabad that uplifts me every morning in Amrit Vela...even just for this...i thank him a thousand times  thousands listen to her kirtan around the world...see how something good comes out of someone's effort to uplift others? how the ripple of love expands and spreads. Yet we so quickly go back to the isms of religion and forget the message of love which is beyond all religion.

what would those souls be doing without his help? still taking drugs? still lost in doubt? i wouldnt be listening to Snatam kaur every morning 

The masses will always find negativity in someone trying to do good...but thats why the masses are still drowning in Maya i suppose.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 17, 2012)

Chazji



> Yes, he got them doing Yoga, maybe those souls needed it.


 
You are lauding concepts that are at odds with Sikhism.
Yoga is at odds, regardless that they may have needed it or not.



> something good comes out of someone's effort to uplift others? how the ripple of love expands and spreads. Yet we so quickly go back to the isms of religion and forget the message of love which is beyond all religion


.



Your inability to concede a single point is admirable.



> should we stop opening businesses because we are truth seekers? you could argue that those business are for helping others? healthy food manufacturing? security for people?



I for one find the marketing and money making using the Golden Temple as a brand distasteful. the name and image of Sikhism should not be exploited this way in the name of business, and nor should it be dragged through the courts.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jul 17, 2012)

Chaz Singh ji we are glad someone is here to voice their opinion in favor of 3HO.

All we are saying is that much of the Sikhi spread around has roots in Kundlini Yoga than the Gyan of the Gurus. They might say that Gurus have said this, two sides of coin, or anything else. It is very much visible how some of their practices have diverted from the traditions.

Yogi Bhajan might have started out like a 'saviour' or a 'guide' to those in distress, but people (and maybe he himself) made him larger than life, which never bade well for anyone.

Remember Guru Nanak speaks 'Kaho Nanak Hum Neech Karama' and 'Nanak Kahe Sunn Binoh Suhagan, Muu Das Dikha Pir Kehiya' !! SO FULL OF HUMILITY!


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## chazSingh (Jul 17, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Satnaam Harry Ji,

I cannot judge a person based on what some of his followers decide to put on websites or what they decide to do with links that direct to their businesses. That is not Yogi Ji, and he is also not here today to do anything about it.

But i will stand up for the many that stand by him and feel like their life has been changed for the better due to the love and direction that Yogi bhajan passed onto them. that is the true wealth of a person.

Gurbani mentions yoga many times: 211

thoo(n) gur prasaadh kar raaj jog ||1||
*By Guru's Grace, practice Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success*. ||1||

har ras jin jan chaakhiaa ||
Those who taste the sublime essence of the Lord
thaa kee thrisanaa laathheeaa ||2||
have their thirst quenched. ||2||


So either Guru Ji is confused himself, or he's confusing us all for some reason or another? you decide.

Just like lucky Ji said..there is a difference between a *ritualistic aproach* and a *pro-active approach* that is backed by the love and thirst for gods presense, sat upon the seeds laid by charity, sharing, hard honest work compassion, forgiveness and love. which is why Gurbani mentions this with reference to blind practices.

I like to take the proactive approach and it serves me well for 'anything' i do in life now...otherwise everything we do is just a ritual. so lets keep planting the seeds...and Guru Ji will surely point us in the direction we need to go next.

God bless.


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## linzer (Jul 17, 2012)

I don't have any problem with his  business ventures accept when he comercializes Sikhi like using  the Darbar Sahib like a logo,Ie. Golden Temple foods, passages of the S.G.G.S as mantra. It figures that you'd like Snatam Kaur as well. Do you approve of them celebrating the birthday of Guru Nanak on the banks of the sacred  Ganges?http://www.11-11-11yoga.com/


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## Ishna (Jul 17, 2012)

Snatam Kaur has a lovely voice, I listen to her Sohila at night sometimes. No need to bring her into the discussion. Perhaps the discussion about 3HO should be had in the 3HO thread?  

My apologies to the OP for contributing to talking the thread away from discussion of the 5ks.


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## chazSingh (Jul 18, 2012)

linzer said:


> I don't have any problem with his business ventures accept when he comercializes Sikhi like using the Darbar Sahib like a logo,Ie. Golden Temple foods, passages of the S.G.G.S as mantra. It figures that you'd like Snatam Kaur as well. Do you approve of them celebrating the birthday of Guru Nanak on the banks of the sacred Ganges?http://www.11-11-11yoga.com/


 
God exists everywhere....i or anyone can celebrate Guru Ji birthday amnywhere...i do not see your point.

And the most sacred place to celebrate Guru Ji's birthday is in your heart, where he dwells. so in the physical realm it doest matter where you are...you could be on the moon, sat on a loo, or on a beach...he's with you at all times.

God bless all.


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## chazSingh (Jul 18, 2012)

Ishna said:


> Snatam Kaur has a lovely voice, I listen to her Sohila at night sometimes. No need to bring her into the discussion. Perhaps the discussion about 3HO should be had in the 3HO thread?
> 
> My apologies to the OP for contributing to talking the thread away from discussion of the 5ks.


 
Dear Ishna Ji,

She was bought into the equation to highlight the goodness that came out of Yogi Ji journey to the west.
Not all, but many of the people he inspired, whether they became Sikh or not, are travelling the world spreading the message of peace and love.
you dont need ism's of religion to do that.

My deepest appologoes also for taking this thread into a different direction. By all means a new thread would probably be best.

Just remember, the image of sikhi can be tarnished very easily by others by looking at the behaviour of some of the followers...but that doesnt meant the message of sikhi is impure.

The same goes for what he tried to do, and for many succeeded i.e. in uplifting them out of the mess they were in (spiritually)

god bless all and the sangat


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## Harry Haller (Jul 18, 2012)

Chazji, 

I have started a new thread, this has been going on for a few pages now, it is unfair on the poster.


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## chazSingh (Jul 18, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Chazji,
> 
> I have started a new thread, this has been going on for a few pages now, it is unfair on the poster.


 
Thanks


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## Harry Haller (Jul 18, 2012)

have started thread http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...houghts-kundalini-yogi-bhajan.html#post167987

and copied and posted the messages from this page


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## Harry Haller (Jul 18, 2012)

last post on the topic in hand was p2 phew, have reposted it for sake of continuity 

Posted BY Linzer

Originally Posted by Sicarius 
I am a new Sikhi. I am a Latino, and was raised a Catholic. I feel that this empowers me in some ways to look at new religions objectively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicarius 



> I have respect for the 5ks, I understand their origin, and been moved by their meaning. However, what attracts me to Sikhism, is it's rejection of blind ritual and mythology. I consider the K's a choice in this way, as it is meant to honor the ancient history of persecution the Sikh's experience and their rebellion to it. However, to say a man has erred God by not wearing a beard, and a turban is obviously contrary core Sikh beliefs. This can be seen in that I believe it was the 9th or 10th Guru who introduced the obligation, thus making it something relatively new.


It was the 10th Guru, Guru Gobind Singh, but you should know that we regard all 10 gurus as the same illuminating force. Therefore it makes no real difference If it’s the first or the last. It’s is still and obligation for receiving amrit.
It's not necessary that you cut your hair,wear a turban or use any of the other 5k to go to Gurwara or study the S.G.G.S. .I know plenty of Indian Sikhs here in Mexico that don't but If one day you decide that you want to take Amrit then it would become an obligation. 
I think that one day I will receive Amrit so I've started to use the 5 k's . I regard not cutting my hair as accepting how look I am without vanity. I think people in general waste too much of their lives by not accepting themselves as they are.
I go to swim three times a week and I find it hugely amusing that it takes me less time to get dressed, comb and tie my hair and beard( which is quite long now) than some fellows with very short hair. They stand in front of the mirror with gel and blow dryers trying to get that one imaginary hair to stay in place. 
As to cleanliness, I think my hair is cleaner now than its' ever been since its always covered.
I wouldn't worry too much about it right now just keep reading Gurbani and Sikh history as well. 
Maybe one day you'll change your mind. I did.


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## linzer (Jul 18, 2012)

One last word, Chazji ,I need to say that you are the only person I know from 3HO that quotes Gurbani  and I know quite a few. All the rest just quote YB. "the Maestro said" It gets tiresome.I don't necesesarily agree with your interpretation but keep up the good work. As for Snatam Kaur, yes, she has a nice voice but for me would be better suited to country western. I like traditional Ragas more, to each their own.swordfight


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## Luckysingh (Jul 18, 2012)

linzer said:


> One last word, Chazji ,I need to say that you are the only person I know from 3HO that quotes Gurbani and I know quite a few. All the rest just quote YB. "the Maestro said" It gets tiresome.I don't necesesarily agree with your interpretation but keep up the good work. As for Snatam Kaur, yes, she has a nice voice but for me would be better suited to country western. I like traditional Ragas more, to each their own.swordfight


I don't think that Chazji is from 3HO himself, but I think he holds some respect for them for the fact that they pursue meditation and simran. For that matter, I also value some of this approach and holds some respect for them.

With Snatam Kaur,I think she is a great artist and inspiration for the young. My kids have only started to pay some attention to kirtan after listening to and being inspired by her work. So , she should keep up her good work!!!


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## chazSingh (Jul 19, 2012)

linzer said:


> One last word, Chazji ,I need to say that you are the only person I know from 3HO that quotes Gurbani and I know quite a few. All the rest just quote YB. "the Maestro said" It gets tiresome.I don't necesesarily agree with your interpretation but keep up the good work. As for Snatam Kaur, yes, she has a nice voice but for me would be better suited to country western. I like traditional Ragas more, to each their own.swordfight


 
I can confirm i am not part of the 3HO organisation  but i do intend to be happy, healthy and holy in my life....i think we can all be included in that


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## Rory (Jul 19, 2012)

What is the difference between Raja yoga and Kundalini yoga?
Can anyone sum it up?


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## chazSingh (Jul 20, 2012)

Rory said:


> What is the difference between Raja yoga and Kundalini yoga?
> Can anyone sum it up?


 
There is lots of information on the internet about both....but i wouldnt recommend researching too much about them.

Although many have probably had great success with them powered by the love to experience their true selves and God. By Guru's grace from my own experience just following the following advice from guru Ji has worked a treat.

pa(n)ch*aa* k*aa* g*u*r e*ae*k dhh*i**aa*n ||
_The chosen ones meditate single-mindedly on the Guru.  *2*_

So providing you are laying the seeds with doing good and not hurting others (physically, mentally and spiritually) and you feel a thirst to 'seek the truth' and nothing but the truth, then just following the above is the best advice.

meditate single mindedly? how can that be done when you're so busy with normal life, or when you close your eyes at night, the mind is still flowing with a zillion thoughts about life. How can we meditate single mindedly in these conditions?

pick a mantra, focus on it in your mind with eyes close....when the mind wonders elsewhere...shake it off and return back to the mantra. keep practicing until the mind starts to relax and leaves you alone. 

Then a mantra isnt needed and you can then focus single-mindedly on god and be in silence and open up to the Amrit that flows through you and everything else


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## Rory (Jul 20, 2012)

Thanks chazSingh, that is what I believe as well


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