# Reading And Studying, One Becomes Confused, And Suffers Punishment



## Charan (Dec 31, 2010)

SSA everyone :

While reading the daily hukamnama, I came over a sentence that I didn't fully grasp;

_Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment._

Can someone explain what this implies?
__________


DHANAASAREE, FIRST MEHL:

That union with the Lord is acceptable, which is united in intuitive poise. Thereafter, one does not die, and does not come and go in reincarnation. The Lord’s slave is in the Lord, and the Lord is in His slave. Wherever I look, I see none other than the Lord. || 1 || The Gurmukhs worship the Lord, and find His celestial home. Without meeting the Guru, they die, and come and go in reincarnation. || 1 || Pause || So make Him your Guru, who implants the Truth within you, who leads you to speak the Unspoken Speech, and who merges you in the Word of the Shabad. God’s people have no other work to do; they love the True Lord and Master, and they love the Truth. || 2 || The mind is in the body, and the True Lord is in the mind. Merging into the True Lord, one is absorbed into Truth. God’s servant bows at His feet. Meeting the True Guru, one meets with the Lord. || 3 || He Himself watches over us, and He Himself makes us see. He is not pleased by stubborn-mindedness, nor by various religious robes. He fashioned the body-vessels, and infused the Ambrosial Nectar into them; God’s Mind is pleased only by loving devotional worship. || 4 || Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment. By great cleverness, one is consigned to coming and going in reincarnation. One who chants the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and eats the food of the Fear of God becomes Gurmukh, the Lord’s servant, and remains absorbed in the Lord. || 5 || He worships stones, dwells at sacred shrines of pilgrimage and in the jungles, wanders, roams around and becomes a renunciate. But his mind is still filthy — how can he become pure? One who meets the True Lord obtains honor. || 6 || One who embodies good conduct and contemplative meditation, his mind abides in intuitive poise and contentment, since the beginning of time, and throughout the ages. In the twinkling of an eye, he saves millions. Have mercy on me, O my Beloved, and let me meet the Guru. || 7 || Unto whom, O God, should I praise You? Without You, there is no other at all. As it pleases You, keep me under Your Will. Nanak, with intuitive poise and natural love, sings Your Glorious Praises. || 8 || 2 ||


Friday, 16th Poh (Samvat 542 Nanakshahi) (Page: 686)



SOURCE: http://sgpc.net/hukumnama/index.asp
__________

Thanks in advance :[/COLOR]


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## findingmyway (Dec 31, 2010)

*Re: "Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment."*

Charan ji,
Here is my understanding on reading through the shabad on page 686. I'm going to put into context of the shabad as it makes more sense that way. I hope others more learned than myself will advise also....

The rahao line talks about how those that follow the Guru's path and become committed to Waheguru, stop their soul from dying. The rest of the shabad are some tips on achieving that. Firstly we have to be careful about which Guru we choose. Only the Guru that talks about the truth and connects you with the shabad so in our case this would be only Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The person who connects and immerses mind and body into contemplating Waheguru has nothing but love for the creation. I think the next bit means that when you are connected to Waheguru your mind remains in the body meaning that your body is controlled by naam rather than anger, lust etc. So when Waheguru remains in the mind then you become absorbed in devotion by living according to Gurbani. The shabad then states that Waheguru knows each in his creation and if you think outward show alone will please then there is not point so this is condemning the saffron robes and sadhu's attire etc of the time. Now here's the line you are interested in-those who become completely absorbed in knowledge and start worship that rather than using it as a means to further spirituality suffer from a sick soul as they stray off the path. The next line goes on to condemn blind worship such as worshipping stones. The right path is somewhere in the middle-a quiet mind which is contemplative of the wonder of creation. Who can you be praised to when you are in each person and everywhere!

Hope that helps. Thank you so much for sharing a lovely shabad.
Jasleen.


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## Charan (Dec 31, 2010)

*Re: "Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment."*



findingmyway said:


> Charan ji,
> Here is my understanding on reading through the shabad on page 686. I'm going to put into context of the shabad as it makes more sense that way. I hope others more learned than myself will advise also....
> 
> The rahao line talks about how those that follow the Guru's path and become committed to Waheguru, stop their soul from dying. The rest of the shabad are some tips on achieving that. Firstly we have to be careful about which Guru we choose. Only the Guru that talks about the truth and connects you with the shabad so in our case this would be only Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The person who connects and immerses mind and body into contemplating Waheguru has nothing but love for the creation. I think the next bit means that when you are connected to Waheguru your mind remains in the body meaning that your body is controlled by naam rather than anger, lust etc. So when Waheguru remains in the mind then you become absorbed in devotion by living according to Gurbani. The shabad then states that Waheguru knows each in his creation and if you think outward show alone will please then there is not point so this is condemning the saffron robes and sadhu's attire etc of the time. Now here's the line you are interested in-those who become completely absorbed in knowledge and start worship that rather than using it as a means to further spirituality suffer from a sick soul as they stray off the path. The next line goes on to condemn blind worship such as worshipping stones. The right path is somewhere in the middle-a quiet mind which is contemplative of the wonder of creation. Who can you be praised to when you are in each person and everywhere!
> ...


 
Thank you so much, Jasleen ji!! :  It makes sense. Your contribution is highly appreciated.

I hope you don't mind me asking another question that has been on my mind lately. In the shabad _'Kahia Karna, Ditta Laina', _which I understand as _'What You say, I will do. What You give, I will take', _there is a line that goes _'Na ko murakh, na ko siana." _Could this be an indication to the balance, that somewhere-in-the-middle, that you are referring to above? As in, we should neither be murakhs (we shouldn't be involved with the Five Evils) nor should we be siane (act as besserwissers, think we have more knowledge than others and maybe God himself?) ... Just let me know if you don't understand what I am asking about, and I'll try again :


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## findingmyway (Jan 1, 2011)

*Re: "Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment."*

Charan ji,
Questions are wonderful! I ask too many myself 
The lines you quote I think are these from page 98?
ਮਾਝ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ maajh mehalaa 5 ||

ਕਹਿਆ ਕਰਣਾ ਦਿਤਾ ਲੈਣਾ ॥ kehiaa karanaa dhithaa lainaa ||
ਗਰੀਬਾ ਅਨਾਥਾ ਤੇਰਾ ਮਾਣਾ ॥ gareebaa anaathhaa thaeraa maanaa ||
ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਤੂੰਹੈ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
sabh kishh thoonhai thoonhai maerae piaarae thaeree kudharath ko bal jaaee jeeo ||1||
ਭਾਣੈ ਉਝੜ ਭਾਣੈ ਰਾਹਾ ॥ bhaanai oujharr bhaanai raahaa ||
ਭਾਣੈ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਵਾਹਾ ॥ bhaanai har gun guramukh gaavaahaa ||
ਭਾਣੈ ਭਰਮਿ ਭਵੈ ਬਹੁ ਜੂਨੀ ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਰਜਾਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
bhaanai bharam bhavai bahu joonee sabh kishh thisai rajaaee jeeo ||2||
ਨਾ ਕੋ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥ naa ko moorakh naa ko siaanaa ||
ਵਰਤੈ ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਾਣਾ ॥ varathai sabh kishh thaeraa bhaanaa ||
ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਅਥਾਹਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਹਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
agam agochar baeanth athhaahaa thaeree keemath kehan n jaaee jeeo ||3||
ਖਾਕੁ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਦੇਹੁ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥ khaak santhan kee dhaehu piaarae ||
ਆਇ ਪਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਦੁਆਰੈ ॥ aae paeiaa har thaerai dhuaarai ||
ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪੇਖਤ ਮਨੁ ਆਘਾਵੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਿਲਣੁ ਸੁਭਾਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੭॥੧੪॥ dharasan paekhath man aaghaavai naanak milan subhaaee jeeo ||4||7||14||

This is all about how everything is in Akal Purakh's will, good and bad is all His/Her will. All are looked after by the creator. I think the line you refer to is saying no-one is stupid as they are created by the same being but no-one is clever either as in comparison to infinity itself how can anyone be clever!

I would appreciate Gyani Jarnail Singh ji's interpretation on both shabad's too as his understanding is greater than mine!


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 1, 2011)

*Re: "Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment."*

Findingway ji, 
All I can add is that it goes back to seeing the world with the veil of duality. Seeing ignorant and intelligent, seeing friend and stranger, seeing good and evil. Well, actually the problem isn't seeing it but buying into it.

"na ko murakh, na ko siana..."
similarly, Guru Arjan Dev ji says in a different passage , "na ko bairi nahi begana"
Guru Nanak Dev ji says "hum nahi change bura nahi koye"

It's easy to switch on the rational mind, and think about how true it is. We can make some line of reasoning in our heads and feel good about ourselves, that we now know that no one is good and bad. But later on, we still go on thinking in those terms. "he shoulnd't have done that he is so..."
I think that according to Gurbani, it should come to us intuitively, without thought. We JUST KNOW and FEEL INSIDE that no one is this or that, and that "sabh kich Thoon hain". Its one thing to believe, which is through thought... it's another to just be aware...

It's like what Tejwant Singh ji usually says. It all about seeing ONENESS.


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## Charan (Jan 1, 2011)

*Re: "Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment."*

Jasleen ji and Bhagat Singh ji, thank you so much for helping me understand this better. I am very grateful and it means a lot to me that there is a place where I can get answers to questions like these. :flowers: Had it not been that I constantly learn new things and sort out misunderstandings about Sikhism through, for example you guys and SPN, I might have let go of Sikhi... like many abroad-born teenagers tend to do. But I am glad I didn't. I am still learning and in no way a perfect Sikh. Most likely I will never be a perfect Sikh. But this process of learning will always keep me attached to Sikhi and that's more than enough. :8)

And yes Bhagat Singh ji, it is indeed very important to practice what we preach/think we understand... but unfortunenately it is equally difficult. What can we do to become less judgemental? Can we ever become fully non-judgemental? Sometimes I feel human-nature is in the way...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 2, 2011)

*Re: "Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment."*

It also happens quite often that when we learn and study too much..we becoem conceited with our "knowledge"...this is called Siannappan....chalakiaan..chatrayeean ( an example of chalakii and chatrayee is matha teking or even more insidious..."donating" a tiny sum Rs 1.25, having a RECEIPT cut, and having the Name announced in Ardass so that everyone "knows" what  a great donor we are...and then asking the Gyani to ask Guru Ji for UNTOLD RICHES..lotteries..sons..buisnesses....good health...etc etc...evr wondered exactly how expensive good helath relaly is..?? ask the Cardiologist..kidney transplant specialist..liver transplant costs ??? all we have FREE from God !!..but still we play chalakian chatriyaan with HIM !!  
The "punishment" of such...is SEPARATION FROM HIM...we just cannot achieve UNION...so we suffer....and the GURU doesnt wnat that....hence this shabad....a lesson for us...


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## findingmyway (Jan 2, 2011)

*Re: "Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment."*

Charan ji,
Who knows who is a perfect Sikh! All we can do is work on ourselves. You posting questions and sharing your understanding helps all of us a great deal too! The threads for gurbani vichaar are the ones that make me happiest :grinningkaur:

Bhagat Singh ji talks about the veil of duality very well and I still have a long way to go in eradicating it but here are some things that helped me reduce my prejudices; when I was at university for my 1st degree, I became very active in the international office. We had 2 roles - help international students settle in and promote integration between international and home students to avoid cliques forming. That experience really broadened my horizons and exposed me to a lot of different people helping to break down stereotypes. I still have friends in all areas of the world and have visited some in their original countries which is amazing. Its wonderful to be able to share cultures-to learn and teach at the sametime without trying to convert on either side kudihug
Jasleen


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## Charan (Jan 2, 2011)

*Re: "Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment."*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> It also happens quite often that when we learn and study too much..we becoem conceited with our "knowledge"...this is called Siannappan....chalakiaan..chatrayeean ( an example of chalakii and chatrayee is matha teking or even more insidious..."donating" a tiny sum Rs 1.25, having a RECEIPT cut, and having the Name announced in Ardass so that everyone "knows" what a great donor we are...and then asking the Gyani to ask Guru Ji for UNTOLD RICHES..lotteries..sons..buisnesses....good health...etc etc...evr wondered exactly how expensive good helath relaly is..?? ask the Cardiologist..kidney transplant specialist..liver transplant costs ??? all we have FREE from God !!..but still we play chalakian chatriyaan with HIM !!
> The "punishment" of such...is SEPARATION FROM HIM...we just cannot achieve UNION...so we suffer....and the GURU doesnt wnat that....hence this shabad....a lesson for us...


 

Thank you for contributing ji : May I ask another question? Is siana both a negative and a positive word? Until now I thought it was only a positive word, as we always refer to our elders as _siane bande_...


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 2, 2011)

*Re: "Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment."*



> What can we do to become less judgemental? Can we ever become fully  non-judgemental? Sometimes I feel human-nature is in the way...


Check this out: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/33792-shallow-readings-and-meditation.html
We are judgemental because of our ego, and our ego manifests itself in our thoughts. When we quiet down our thoughts through meditation, "praising the naam", we cease to be judgemental.

Page 20, Line 12
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹੀਐ ਹਉਮੈ ਨਿਵਰੀ ਭਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
गुरमुखि नामु सलाहीऐ हउमै निवरी भाहि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gurmukẖ nām salāhī▫ai ha▫umai nivrī bẖāhi. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The Gurmukh praises the Naam, and the fire of *ego*tism is extinguished. ||1||Pause||
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## Charan (Jan 2, 2011)

*Re: "Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment."*



BhagatSingh said:


> Check this out: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/33792-shallow-readings-and-meditation.html
> We are judgemental because of our ego, and our ego manifests itself in our thoughts. When we quiet down our thoughts through meditation, "praising the naam", we cease to be judgemental.
> 
> Page 20, Line 12
> ...


 
Thanks Bhagat Singh ji...:hug: Your words are food for thought. Your essay really made me think...


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## spnadmin (Jan 2, 2011)

*Re: "Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment."*

Admin note: The previous comment was deleted for the following reasons. This is a Sikh forum. The section of the forum where this thread is located is "gurmat vichaar" which means "understanding the wisdom of the Guru, specifically wisdom found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the final and everlasting Guru of the Sikhs. The actual topic under discussion is a tuk from Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Therefore it is inappropriate to introduce any interpretation coming from a different belief system in this context of Sikh forum+Sikh scripture+Sikh verse+of Sikh Guru. It would be just as unacceptable for a Sikh to interpret a passage from the Book of Job of the Hebrew Testament at a Jewish forum using Sikh vichaar to do so. IMHO, this is only common sense. Apologies if this is considered a stern reprimand.


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## spnadmin (Jan 2, 2011)

*Re: "Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment."*

Again apologies. A previous post has been physically removed.  Discussions of similarities and differences between and among faiths go to Interfaith Dialogs. However, even there elevating the scripture of another faith on a par with  Sri Guru Granth Sahib undermines Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and is a violation of TOS.  No further warnings will be given.

:admin4:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 2, 2011)

another related thought in Gurbani....in Asa dee vaar Guru Ji declares.."Parriah hoveh gunaahgaar..taan omi saadh na mariah..."....Meaning IF the Educated one is GUILTY..(he will be punished)..and NOT the uneducated simpleton..saadh. This is in relation to the implication that an educated person can get away with murder..while the poor uneducated saadh can be implicated and punished for a crime he never committed..Such can happen in the worldly justice system..BUT not in His Heavenly Justice Courts of Dharamraaj !!
This is one way in which a person MISUSES his education !!..and may thus LOSE it all ( chance for merger with HIM )welcomekaur


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 3, 2011)

CHARAN Ji,
DIVINE GREETINGS,
I would like to bring to your kind notice that in the SHABAD under consideration  there is no message like "READING AND STUDYING,ONE BECOMES CONFUSED AND SUFFER PUNISHMENT>" 
On the conrary the message goes loike this" READING AND THEN FORGETTING ,ONE BECOMES CONFUSED AND SUFFERS PUNISHMENT"
 SO you may pl verify this content of the SHABAD and the answer is OBVIOUS.

Wirh best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## ravneet_sb (Jan 3, 2011)

Charan said:


> SSA everyone :
> 
> While reading the daily hukamnama, I came over a sentence that I didn't fully grasp;
> 
> ...



Dear Charan,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Wahegugu Ji Ki Fateh,

"GURU"

"GU" is Darkness  "RU" is Light

"GURU" is transition from "Darkness" to "Light"

Inside of mind can only be "realised" not physically "seen" 


We see the outer world when it is illuminated, but 

What is inside mind, how it operates.

It also operates with light, 
when one realises the inside illumination, 
one realises " GURU"

One can attain "Peace" and " Happiness" 

Foolish "MIND" is always in mode of "desire" for sex, food, security, happiness, peace.

"Peace" is utmost. 

Ultimate aim is to achieve "Peace" to all the souls.

It is rest of "MIND". which can not be achieved outside.

But making one's "MIND" desireless.

Do little exercise

Move in silence, shut all your senses, 

focus on  "MIND"

It will have lot of unresolved thoughts, beyond one's controll

Resolve all your thoughts

After one has achieved this. Resolving all your thoughts

Not so easy

One can realise "GURU" within self.

"GhAR" is one's OWN Body

"GURU"  is "GRANTH SAHIB JI"

"SHABAD" mein "GURU" 

"GURU" hai "SHABAD"

Dhan Dhan "GURU" Granth Sahib Ji.


Ravneet is crying while writting this , 

people following false "GURU's" falling prey of wrong Human's

Understand "SHABAD" know "GURU"

Reference

nij ghar mahal paavhu sukh sehjay bahur na ho-igo fayraa[/FONT] [/FONT]Pg 13 Line 18

gh[/FONT]ar hee vich mahal paa-i-aa gur sabdee veechaar Pg30 Line 2

[/FONT]  jo ghar chhad gavaavnaa so lagaa man maahi Pg 43 Line 5

[/FONT]  aap pachhaanai ghar vasai ha-umai tarisnaa jaa-ay.[/FONT] Pg57 Line 17


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 3, 2011)

Ravneet-sb
Divine Greetings,

I am surprised the way you have given the meaning to the word GURU.Is this a practice of getting to the meaning of different words as per giving meaning to different letters.This can create chaos in the meanings. e g  the letter S can be taken for SATYA  or it can be taken for SURAT or it can be taken for SURAJ like that.there is no end to give meanings to the letter.

Does Gurbaani anywhere tells the meaning of the word GURU as declared by your goodself.?This meaning is our own creation not the GURMATi way.
In Gurbaani the word GURU is very very clearly reffered as SHABADu not as SHABAD.You may verify this yourself from the GURMUKHI Script of SGGS ji. I am not required to go into the details of this.

It is my only earnest request that let us give clear and specific message from SGGS ji.
My views may pl not be taken otherwise.I would feel SORRY.
With best wishes 
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 3, 2011)

SPNADMIN Ji,
Divine Greetings,

There seems to be some gross error in the thread the meaning of the TUK from SGGS ji.

You may pl note thatr the line in SGGS ji is

"PADi PADi BHULAHi CHOTAA KHAi   BAHUT SIAANUP AAWAHi JAAHi

The meaning of the line as given in THREAD does not match  the actual  message being conveyed in the TUK of SGGS 

I would request to look into this and rectify the content of thread as you feel.

Thanking you

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Jan 3, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> SPNADMIN Ji,
> Divine Greetings,
> 
> There seems to be some gross error in the thread the meaning of the TUK from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ji.
> ...



Prakash.S.Bagga ji

Please share what specifically you find objectionable about it, and why you find it objectionable. Thank you


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 3, 2011)

SPNADMIN Ji,

The actual meaning of the TUK in SGGS  tells

'READING AND FORGETTING THE READ  CREATES CONFUSION AND RESULTS PUNISHNENT"

Whereas the thread is telling 

"READING AND STUDYING,ONE GETS CONFUSED AND SUFFERS PUNISHMENT"

You can notice the error in the message in the thread being very much different that of SGGS

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Jan 3, 2011)

Well actually Prakash S. Bagga ji you make an interesting argument. In my case, I would approach the interpretation of the entire shabad somewhat differently from how others have done it. Having said that, the translation of any line including the one you have identified, depends on the context taken from the shabad as an entire message.  What is your understanding of the entire shabad? Thank you

You are stating that this tuk 
ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਭੂਲਹਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਖਾਹਿ ॥
parr parr bhoolehi chottaa khaahi ||

Should mean  





> 'READING AND FORGETTING THE READ CREATES CONFUSION AND RESULTS PUNISHNENT"



Instead of 





> Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment.



I do not particularly go with either translation, but like the second one a bit better. Why do you like the first one better?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 3, 2011)

actually CHOTAN is NOT "punishment" per se...it stands for .."dar dar THOKRAN khaeh..." meaning someone who STUMBLES and SUFFERS....like a BLIND person is liable to stumble at every pot-hole, stub his foot/toe at each brick/stone along the path...all this is CHOTAAN..

Someone who thinks too highly of his own "education/status as academic/parriah likhiah/pandit/gyani/Mullah/kazi/etc etc is liable to walk with his nose held high..and most likely to step into a pot hole/puddle of dirty water/or stub his foot on a stoen lying in the path and maybe FALL DOWN as well....CHOTTAN KHAHEH. CHOT is same as Satt...strike/blow/...satt being inflicted by others(mostly) and Chottan are SELF INFLICTED due to ones own FAILINGS..

That is why a person who translates from one language to another has to be really an expert in BOTH languages, their syncrocies..finesse..vocabulary..circumstances of words usage..character of the speakers..etc etc etc... Raining Cats and Dogs CANNOT be translated as Kuttian billian da meehn baras reha hai.......in Punjabi its Batera paer heth...( baby bird under my foot) and in English it would be a Bird in hand is worth two in the Bush...(not exactly)....Dont BITE the hand that feeds you..is Dont make HOLES in your PLATE..or dont "deXXXXte" in your eating utensils ???

Its always SAFER as SPNADMIN jis says....get the GIST of the Entire Shaabd FIRST..and then concnetrate on the RAHAO..to go deeper...and really UNDERSTAND it.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 3, 2011)

SPNADMIN Ji.
I am really surprised to see that you are misquoting my contention.The line of the thread is not my identification.This has already been identified and we are interacting with reference to the line of thread only.
Since Gurbaani interpretaions are fully based on LOGICS.Therefore Sound and correct LOGICS  are not the subject of LIKING or DISLIKING.So Gurbaani is independent of this aspect of Human thinking..

Regarding my understanding of entire SHABAD ,you are well clear about my grammatical views in Gurbaani interpretaions which I am not permitted to do. If I do I am sure you are going to take off the view.

I can simply say we all make good paraphrases of Gurbaani understanding.There is paradigm shift in the Gurbaani interpretation in absence of grammatial considerations of the words.
In this situation I can simply participate in expressing general views which I am gladly doing.I have no complaint in this regard either.

I hope you will not take my points out of context as you understand my views very well.
With best wishes,
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Jan 3, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> SPNADMIN Ji.
> I am really surprised to see that you are misquoting my contention.The line of the thread is not my identification.This has already been identified and we are interacting with reference to the line of thread only.



Prakash.S.Bagga ji

I honestly don't understand what you mean by "misquoting" If I got the wrong line, which one did you mean instead? I will happily take a look at that line. The one quoted is the line you took the time to translate. 

I understand that the transliterations differ. 


The one I used: 





> *parr parr bhoolehi chottaa khaahi* ||


 followed by "bahuth siaanap aavehi jaahi ||

and the one you used  





> *PADi PADi BHULAHi CHOTAA KHAi*  (Which you say means, 'READING AND FORGETTING THE READ CREATES CONFUSION AND RESULTS PUNISHNENT")


 followed by "BAHUT SIAANUP AAWAHi JAAHi"

Please point the right line out. Perhaps you should give the Gurmukhi so that there is no confusion. Otherwise we are counting the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin. This will take the conversation off topic. 

This part of your comment above makes me wonder. 





> Since Gurbaani interpretaions are fully based on LOGICS.Therefore Sound and correct LOGICS are not the subject of LIKING or DISLIKING. So Gurbaani is independent of this aspect of Human thinking..


 Whose "LOGICS" you are referring to.?  I disagree with your translation. By saying that I "don't go with" in no way implies "like" or "dislike" -- merely an attempt at truth with some diplomacy. 

Thank you.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 3, 2011)

SPNADMIN Ji ,
Divine Greetings,

Thanks for the guidance. I may be wrong in this context. Let us proceed ahead.

With best wishes

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Charan (Jan 4, 2011)

Interesting discussion spnadmin ji and prakash.s.bagga ji... I was also going to ask how much the translation/the translator matters in analysing a shabad, but then, I came to the conclusion that since the translation is taken from SGPC, it must a be trustworthy one...


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## spnadmin (Jan 4, 2011)

Charan said:


> Interesting discussion spnadmin ji and prakash.s.bagga ji... I was also going to ask how much the translation/the translator matters in analysing a shabad, but then, I came to the conclusion that since the translation is taken from SGPC, it must a be trustworthy one...



Charon ji

The SGPC translation used on their web site is by Dr Sant Singh Khalsa. This is the Khalsa consensus translation that I wrote about earlier. Those who are advocates of Professor Sahib Singh ji's translation and Guru Granth Darpan have never accepted the Sant Singh/Khalsa consensus as an adequate translation. This however is my observation and is limited only to conversations on this forum and other Sikh forums that I have been aware of.

The question of whether any translation would be widely accepted is still open, in spite of the individual preferences that might be voiced.

p/s It does not take that long to learn enough Gurmukhi/Punjabi to work with translations, to compare them to see which one has the best solution for a particular shabad. What I have found is that the translations are uneven in quality. Sometimes one is better and sometimes another is better. So it is good to learn a little Punjabi in Gurmukhi script.


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## Charan (Jan 4, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> Charon ji
> 
> The SGPC translation used on their web site is by Dr Sant Singh Khalsa. This is the Khalsa consensus translation that I wrote about earlier. Those who are advocates of Professor Sahib Singh ji's translation and Guru Granth Darpan have never accepted the Sant Singh/Khalsa consensus as an adequate translation. This however is my observation and is limited only to conversations on this forum and other Sikh forums that I have been aware of.
> 
> ...


 

Oh,  thanks for the info! I prob should try to be more critical in the future... ::


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## findingmyway (Jan 4, 2011)

*Re: "Reading and studying, one becomes confused, and suffers punishment."*



Charan said:


> Thank you for contributing ji : May I ask another question? Is siana both a negative and a positive word? Until now I thought it was only a positive word, as we always refer to our elders as _siane bande_...



Siana can be both negative and positive. Siana banda - clever man is a good connotation. However, when you reprimand someone jada siana na ban, then you are implying that someone is using their cleverness for wrong means.

With translations I like to use more than 1 to get a more rounded view.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 4, 2011)

CHARAN Ji
I am greatly impressed by your candid observation.The  information given by SPNADMIN Ji is  quite true and interesting.
I would simply like to share my views based on my experiene.In the past 20 years I have personally gone thru translations of Five Authorities.All five Authorities are well qualified with great Knowledge.
My observation has been that No one has presented interpretation of Gurbaani as per grammer of Gurbaani words. Even the Authorities introducing the role and concept of grammer to Gurbaani words, have not done justice to the interpretations.

I have strong conviction after getting the understanding of grammer of Gurbaani words
that unless the Gurbaani interpretations are presented as per correct grammer of Gurbaani words the situation is going to stay like this.

In this situation you will have to make efforts to understand grammer and learn to get the meaning of Gurbaani words accordingly.This is so because it would not be easy task to do the way we establish the interpretation of Gurbaani.
It is a matter of pleasure that at least there is a Forum where you can share the views and in this process we may get the opportunities to improve our overall understanding.
This can be a great Contribution of this Forum.

I am hopeful a time will come when we would be sharing Gurbaani understanding more 
according to grammer of the words as people havestarted to realise the significance of grammer in Gurbaani.No doubt it is a slow process.

With best wishes

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## findingmyway (Jan 4, 2011)

Prakash ji,
It would be a great seva to the community if you could write a teeka with translations based on your understanding of Gurbani grammar :redturban:


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## prakash.s.bagga (Jan 4, 2011)

FINDINGMYWAYS Ji.

I thank you for suggestion. I am already on the job of getting a book published with heading: THE CONCEPT OF SHABADu IN GURBAANI"
At my Home my all family members are with me  BY THE GRACE OF SATiGURU Ji.

Once again thanking you

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Charan (Jan 4, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> CHARAN Ji
> I am greatly impressed by your candid observation.The information given by SPNADMIN Ji is quite true and interesting.
> I would simply like to share my views based on my experiene.In the past 20 years I have personally gone thru translations of Five Authorities.All five Authorities are well qualified with great Knowledge.
> My observation has been that No one has presented interpretation of Gurbaani as per grammer of Gurbaani words. Even the Authorities introducing the role and concept of grammer to Gurbaani words, have not done justice to the interpretations.
> ...


 
Thank you for sharing your thoughts prakash.s.bagga ji! Appreciate your post. Made me think. And thank you for making me more aware of the translation-aspect of analysing shabads. I had not really given it much thought before now. And best of luck for the writing of your book... 
Chardi kala ji,
Charan.


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