# A Question To Gurujee Or Bani Manipulation?



## Randip Singh (Feb 27, 2012)

Hi folks I was recently e-mail an interesting question and answer document based on the Guru Granth Sahib ji. Iread it and thought it is an excellent example for me to illustrate how Bani can be manipulated:



> *Meat Q&A with Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now here is the same article with Bani added and questions slightly altered:



> *Vegetarianism Q&A with Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj
> 
> *
> 
> ...


*any views?
*


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## Harry Haller (Feb 27, 2012)

Guruji Can I eat my Vegetables without Salt?
Answer: 
ਕਬੀਰ ਖੂਬੁ ਖਾਨਾ ਖੀਚਰੀ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਲੋਨੁ ॥ 
ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ ॥੧੮੮॥ 
"O Kabeer! The dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is (just) flavoured with salt. I am not ready to have my own throat cut to have meat with my bread? ||188||"
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 1374) 
Guruji, my if my family are attacked by thugs, should I defend them?

ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਕਿਸੈ ਜੀਅ ਪਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਵਉ ॥ 
"Do not cause any being to suffer, and you shall go to your true home with honor." 
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 322) 

But surely to defend my families life is righteous
ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥ 
ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥2॥ 
"You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? If you religious people are doing "religious" killing for meat, then what is A-dharam (atheism)? If you are a religious person then whom will we call a butcher? ||2||" 
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 1103) 

Is it true that one can drink wine, as long as it you do not eat fish with it?
ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ 
ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥ 
"O Kabeer! Those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||" 
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 1377) 

What about black pudding?
ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥ 
ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ ॥ 
ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਾ ਦਿਲਿ ਹਛੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ॥ 
ਅਵਰਿ ਦਿਵਾਜੇ ਦੁਨੀ ਕੇ ਝੂਠੇ ਅਮਲ ਕਰੇਹੁ ॥੧॥ 
"If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted. Those who drink the blood of others - how can those people's consciousness be pure?" 
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Ang 140) 

My father is blind, is it true he will never find enlightenment?, and my mother is a professional bamboo blower, what about her?
ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੈ ਜਉ ਸਿਖਾ ਮਹਿ ਚੂਕ ॥
ਅੰਧੇ ਏਕ ਨ ਲਾਗਈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਂਸੁ ਬਜਾਈਐ ਫੂਕ ॥੧੫੮॥ 
"O Kabeer! What can the True Guru do, when His Sikhs are at fault? The blind do not take in any of His Teachings; it is as useless as blowing into bamboo. ||158||" 
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji – Ang 1372)


Just how far can you go, I wonder, to tailor the answers? If I was feeling a bit more mischievous, and had a bit more time, I think I could justify anything in this manner, Great post Veerji


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## BaljinderS (Feb 27, 2012)

Harry veer ji, you are a funny guy :redturban:
Sikhism is not about quantity but quality so there bound to be allot of fools who fall for this kind of misguidance.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 27, 2012)

Harry your version is brilliant.


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## BaljinderS (Feb 27, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> Harry your version is brilliant.



lol.. funny

---------------
My father is blind, is it true he will never find enlightenment?, and my mother is a professional bamboo blower, what about her?
ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੈ ਜਉ ਸਿਖਾ ਮਹਿ ਚੂਕ ॥
ਅੰਧੇ ਏਕ ਨ ਲਾਗਈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਂਸੁ ਬਜਾਈਐ ਫੂਕ ॥੧੫੮॥ 
"O Kabeer! What can the True Guru do, when His Sikhs are at fault? The blind do not take in any of His Teachings; it is as useless as blowing into bamboo. ||158||" 
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji – Ang 1372)


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## Randip Singh (Feb 28, 2012)

> Guruji, my if my family are attacked by thugs, should I defend them?
> 
> ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਕਿਸੈ ਜੀਅ ਪਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਵਉ ॥
> "Do not cause any being to suffer, and you shall go to your true home with honor."
> ...


 
But seriously.

This would make Sikh's to be believers in Ahimsa and concept we reject totally.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 28, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijh-GCRi1ns&feature=player_detailpage#t=57s

A pretend Sabad though great tune.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 28, 2012)

Harry Ji..Brilliant par excellence...couldnt stop LOL......had to be forcefully "stopped" as too much laughter is bad for my heart..ha ha ha will laugh again tomorrow after a second read thru...great job.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 28, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Harry Ji..Brilliant par excellence...couldnt stop LOL......had to be forcefully "stopped" as too much laughter is bad for my heart..ha ha ha will laugh again tomorrow after a second read thru...great job.



I was thinking of some more today....I think this may start something.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 28, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> I was thinking of some more today....I think this may start something.



me too! this could be a long running thread !


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Feb 28, 2012)

Veer Ji with *Gods True Word* as spoken by Saints one does not have to follow it to the letter, but rather follow the spirit of it,the spirit of it is Naam or Truth.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 28, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> I was thinking of some more today....I think this may start something.


Randip Singh ji is it possible to keep tab of Kachi Bani identifed in Examples so that it would be easily available to help people check?  Media and Internet with URL probably easy and written stuff or non-online stuff being harder.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 29, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Randip Singh ji is it possible to keep tab of Kachi Bani identifed in Examples so that it would be easily available to help people check? Media and Internet with URL probably easy and written stuff or non-online stuff being harder.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.


 

Kachi Bani = tough nut to crack. Kachi Bani eminates I think from fanaticism and lack of education and downright manipulation.

To tackle manipulation, fanaticism and lack of education, all we can do is try and educate people on forums like this. 

Your idea is nevertheless a good one.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 29, 2012)

Guruji My name is David Blain. I am a magician a who performs card tricks and I am worried about a new one I am going to do won't work at my next show. Will it work?

*Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end*

*Page 1 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
*
Guruji my name is Margaret Thatcher and I advocated Monetary Policies in the 80's that rely on Consumerism. Are my policies vindicated?

*Throughout the ages, consumers consume

Page 1 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
*


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## Harry Haller (Mar 1, 2012)

Guruji, Why is it that I have no respect for myself anymore, I am a normal father with two children, my wife has much respect, but everyone treats me like a fool.


Page 32, Line 12
ਧਨੁ ਜਨਨੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਇਆ ਧੰਨੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥
धनु जननी जिनि जाइआ धंनु पिता परधानु ॥
Ḏẖan jannī jin jā▫i▫ā ḏẖan piṯā parḏẖān.
Blessed is the mother who gave birth and blessed and respected is the father of one,

Although this does seem a humour thread, I had to read about 15 pages of Bani to find one reference, so its not as pointless as it might seem


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 1, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> But seriously.
> 
> This would make Sikh's to be believers in Ahimsa and concept we reject totally.


 
We are prepared to reject this concept of SGGS as this message goes against our own established views as per earlier Sabad. A good idea of considering the meanings of the quotes as per convenience.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Randip Singh (Mar 2, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> We are prepared to reject this concept of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as this message goes against our own established views as per earlier Sabad. A good idea of considering the meanings of the quotes as per convenience.
> 
> Prakash.S.Bagga


 

An interesting point. Please elaborate.


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## Randip Singh (Mar 2, 2012)

harry haller said:


> Guruji, Why is it that I have no respect for myself anymore, I am a normal father with two children, my wife has much respect, but everyone treats me like a fool.
> 
> 
> Page 32, Line 12
> ...


 
Indeed.

In actually trying to twist the meaning of Bani, I am having to learn the real meaning, and in the process learning something.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 2, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> An interesting point. Please elaborate.


 
You are considering the idea of Ahmsa as rejected .Where does Guru ji telling us to be Hinsak.?
There is concept of self defence only and this does not amount to be Hinsak rather an action within the concept of Ahimsa.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 2, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> You are considering the idea of Ahmsa as rejected .Where does Guru ji telling us to be Hinsak.?


_Prakash.S.Bagga ji your logic is flawed as it does not confirm as one has to be one or the other or there are many shades of violence and non-violence.  If there are many shades then binary logic is inapplicable.

Example:  Something is not "BLACK".  It does not imply it is white as it could be pink, blue, red, saffron, etc.

Sat Sri Akal.
_


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## TigerStyleZ (Mar 2, 2012)

Stop abusing Gurbani !!
We all know , out there are many fools wo twist bani for their own  interest etc.. We don´t need to make a fun thread out of this... This is  bani manipulation as well. Be serious! This topic needs to be discussed seriously, because its misleading and harming many Sikhs.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 2, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> _Prakash.S.Bagga ji your logic is flawed as it does not confirm as one has to be one or the other or there are many shades of violence and non-violence. If there are many shades then binary logic is inapplicable._
> 
> _Example: Something is not "BLACK". It does not imply it is white as it could be pink, blue, red, saffron, etc._
> 
> _Sat Sri Akal._


 
Well,thanks for rectifying my thinking.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Mar 2, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> _Prakash.S.Bagga ji your logic is flawed as it does not confirm as one has to be one or the other or there are many shades of violence and non-violence. If there are many shades then binary logic is inapplicable._
> 
> _Example: Something is not "BLACK". It does not imply it is white as it could be pink, blue, red, saffron, etc._
> 
> _Sat Sri Akal._


 
Well thanks for rectifying me.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Randip Singh (Mar 2, 2012)

TigerStyleZ said:


> Stop abusing Gurbani !!
> We all know , out there are many fools wo twist bani for their own  interest etc.. We don´t need to make a fun thread out of this... This is  bani manipulation as well. Be serious! This topic needs to be discussed seriously, because its misleading and harming many Sikhs.



No one is abusing Bani, and through the humour one can clearly see that there is serious point. So those lunatics who go around gate crashing halls and peoples wedding saying Bani should be respected should target people like those I have illustrated in the very first post by  Bhai Manvir Singh ji (UK) 			 		.


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## Randip Singh (Mar 2, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> You are considering the idea of Ahmsa as rejected .Where does Guru ji telling us to be Hinsak.?
> There is concept of self defence only and this does not amount to be Hinsak rather an action within the concept of Ahimsa.
> Prakash.S.Bagga



Ok, how does one reconcile Ahimsa with Self Defence. Ahimsa means non-violence.

Our Tenth Master tells us:

"when all other means have failed, it maybe necessary to draw the sword"

Ahimsa, or Ahem?


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## Ambarsaria (Mar 2, 2012)

Randip Singh said:


> Ok, how does one reconcile Ahimsa with Self Defence. Ahimsa means non-violence.
> 
> Our Tenth Master tells us:
> 
> ...


_Randip Singh ji thanks for your post.  Beyond saying he said so, as history tells us his elder sons died fighting, his Singhs_/_Khalsa lost many in battles, and hence a Khalsa not afraid to shed blood or lose life or limb was born if the cause so needed.

All these Himsa/Shimsa people are trying to back track from Guru Gobind Singh ji towards pre Guru Nanak Dev ji or in between as convenient to align with Hinduism.  It is not rocket science to see or figure out such attempts or even name names of posters.  They all know who they are!  Like clowns in a circus too afraid to show their true face!:interestedmunda:

Sat Sri Akal.
_


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Mar 2, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> _Randip Singh ji thanks for your post.  Beyond saying he said so, as history tells us his elder sons died fighting, his Singhs_/_Khalsa lost many in battles, and hence a Khalsa not afraid to shed blood or lose life or limb was born if the cause so needed.
> 
> All these Himsa/Shimsa people are trying to back track from Guru Gobind Singh ji towards pre Guru Nanak Dev ji or in between as convenient to align with Hinduism.  It is not rocket science to see or figure out such attempts or even name names of posters.  They all know who they are!  Like clowns in a circus too afraid to show their true face!:interestedmunda:
> 
> ...



And for all you know the two may come in and now say...OK OK..He says "Draw" the sword..BUT He NEVER said to wound/kill anybody ??..Just draw sword ONLY....there's NO LIMIT to such run arounds/illogical logic...

Khoob khanna kheechhrree....isn't THAT  a most BORING diet ?? kichhrree is a diet for SICK people...normally recommended for patients recovering from a sickness...its NOT a norm for healthy persons and certainly Not a daily diet.....So are we being limited to just porridge and Wooden Bread (Roti meri kaath ki) and/or ban on butter (Jinnah khadhee CHOPRREE ghanneh sehngeh dukh - those who use BUTTER on their bread will suffer the direst consequences..a WARNING about CHOLESTEROL/HEART ATTACKS/HIGH BP perhaps ??

A Slippery slope indeed...japposatnamwaheguru:


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## Randip Singh (Mar 3, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> _Randip Singh ji thanks for your post.  Beyond saying he said so, as history tells us his elder sons died fighting, his Singhs_/_Khalsa lost many in battles, and hence a Khalsa not afraid to shed blood or lose life or limb was born if the cause so needed.
> 
> All these Himsa/Shimsa people are trying to back track from Guru Gobind Singh ji towards pre Guru Nanak Dev ji or in between as convenient to align with Hinduism.  It is not rocket science to see or figure out such attempts or even name names of posters.  They all know who they are!  Like clowns in a circus too afraid to show their true face!:interestedmunda:
> 
> ...



I personally do not think there was any difference between Guru Nanak or Guru Gobind Singh ji's meassage....

...after all Guru Nanak says:



> Guru Nanak wanted to create such a society of man, who could live with  dignity, could firmly defend the truth, and should be ready to sacrifice  their his life walking on the path of truth.  This sort of life is  possible only if worldliness and spiritualism are combined together.  It  is a very difficult way of life about which Guru Nanak says, “If you  seek to play the game of love then place your head on your palm then  tread on this path.  While stepping on this path sacrifice your head  ungrudingly.7  We can find so many examples in Sri Guru Granth Sahib  which idicate that Miri & Piri both should be combined for the  evolution of the perfect human personality and  society.  In the Bani of  Bhagat Kabir, we can see so many indications for the struggle and  sacrifice for the establishment of righteousness.  Kabir says in Rag  Maru, “In the seat of super-consciousness was struck the drum and the  weapon hit the target of the heart.  As the hero has taken the field,  now is the occasion to wage battle.  The true is one who fights in  defense of the humble; though cut limb after limb, and flees not the  field.8 This power is the way for sovereignty.





http://sikhinstitute.org/akaltakht06/7-gurnamkaur.html


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## Randip Singh (Mar 3, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Khoob khanna kheechhrree....isn't THAT  a most BORING diet ?? kichhrree is a diet for SICK people...normally recommended for patients recovering from a sickness...



Gyani ji, I fear that most of our community is ill


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