# Why Am I Sikh?



## jaysangh (Oct 23, 2006)

(Before jumping into this I think it would be polite of me to state the overall theme of the following thread. I will not be discussing why I love sikhism or how I found sikhism. Instead I will be presenting some questions from a sketpical person with sikh parents.)

Why am I a sikh? Why should I be?  What proof is there that I should believe? Do I just need to have faith?

These are questions I ask myself quite regularly. Maybe when I was a teenager if somebody asked me whether or not I was a sikh I would have said yes. 

However, these days I find it difficult to admit that I am a sikh. I don't go to the the temple on a regular basis (really only for special events and weddings). The times that I do go I don't really feel interested in getting involved with prayers and etc.

One from here may quickly jump and wrongly accuse me of being ignorant of my own religion. My apathy towards sikhism doesn't result from poor parenting or lack of education. It likey stems from a few kids I met through my adolescence who asked me some questions, questions I had no answers to. Maybe you do, maybe you don't?

Firstly, the title of this thread. Why am I sikh? Is there really a decent answer to that question. The only coherent answer I can think of is "because my parents are". But should a person really structure his/her belief system according to a viewpoint his/her parents held? What if the religion of a child's parents was corrupt and held very immoral beliefs. Should this child just blindly accept what he/she is told to believe?

Now, I am not suggesting that sikhism is corrupt or immoral (I definitely would never say that). What I am trying to suggest is that the answer "because my parents are" is not valid.

Let's take this question a bit further. If I was born into a hindu/christian/muslim family would I end up later in life finding sikhism and converting? I don't think I (or anyone) could say yes to that question with 100% certainty. Of course this is taking the question and twisting it into a completely impossible scenario. Children are merely a product of their parents (genetically). The hypothetical starting with "If I was born from different parents" is inherently flawed. If I had different parents I would no longer be me and therefore I cannot expect this other me to end up with the same system of beliefs as the real me. 

Now of course some may argue "well that's not true, we have souls which are capable of transcending space, time and matter" or something to that effect. I'd rather leave that line of argument out of this. The concept of souls (at least when using the conventional definition of the word) requires one to have faith in something that remains for the most part "unproven". 

So how about this scenario. Imagine a kid that was born from sikh parents. While the kid is very young (say...1-2 years old), the parents end up getting in some sort of accident and die (or decide to not be capable of raising the child and put him in an orphanage, whatever scenario you prefer). The child is put in a house until a loving hindu couple adopt the child. Treating the child as their own, they, of course, raise the child as a hindu. Once the child grows up he/she pursues a life as a devout hindu. He/she may never be aware that his original parents were sikhs. 

Now some ppl might argue that the kid was DESTINED to be a hindu. That this was just god's plan for him. What do you think?

Back to my life though. These days I don't consider myself sikh. My personal belief system probably falls closer to an atheist than a sikh. I read here that sikhism isn't really a religion. However, whenever I read things about a belief system having a creator the word religion is immediately what I think. Can somebody possibly clear this up for me?

That is all I have time for the moment. I look forward to publishing some more posts and hopefully hearing some intellectual responses. Until then...


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## skeptik (Nov 1, 2006)

mate you're wasting your time. you're a sikh, accept it or not, but thats what you are. there is no point questioning it. its an obvious fact of reality. 



> Let's take this question a bit further. If I was born into a hindu/christian/muslim family would I end up later in life finding sikhism and converting? I don't think I (or anyone) could say yes to that question with 100% certainty. Of course this is taking the question and twisting it into a completely impossible scenario. Children are merely a product of their parents (genetically). The hypothetical starting with "If I was born from different parents" is inherently flawed. If I had different parents I would no longer be me and therefore I cannot expect this other me to end up with the same system of beliefs as the real me.


 What if i were born a stool? Would I like people sitting on me? Would i have chosen sikhism later? Silly question because you know that you cant answer this sensibly. if you were born to another set of parents well mate that wouldnt be you, that would be someone else. 



> Now some ppl might argue that the kid was DESTINED to be a hindu. That this was just god's plan for him. What do you think?


 Forget about this - choosing ones path bullshit. Its for phudus who have too much time on their hands. Ask instead, how can i be useful member of society? How can i contribute to the hapiness of my family? How can i be successful in my life? Things like that are more useful questions to ponder. 



> Back to my life though. These days I don't consider myself sikh. My personal belief system probably falls closer to an atheist than a sikh.


 Nonsense. You arent an atheist. Your a sikh who is too lazy to live as one. Just do it. Read your japji sahib, do your seva, take care of your family, and be a useful member of society. Work on the basics, thats the point.



> I read here that sikhism isn't really a religion.


 Nevermind what people say about Sikhism here. They are just too awed by liberalism interpretations of Sikhism to think Sikhi has nothing to do with ordinary society. They're wrong about this and if you are interested you can read a thread of mine on the other board where i discuss such misconceptions. As it happens, Sikhi is a religion. nevermind if it wasnt a religion when baba nanak lived - it has become one since then. Sikhs have a religious code, they have their history, they have their culture and they have their society. one cannot deny this.


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## jaysangh (Nov 1, 2006)

I'd have to say I disagree with you on some points



skeptik said:


> mate you're wasting your time. you're a sikh, accept it or not, but thats what you are. there is no point questioning it. its an obvious fact of reality.



Hmm, wasting my time? I don't see how questioning what belief system you are going to follow is at all a waste of time. The worst thing I think people can do is just blindly accept what they are told without questioning it



skeptik said:


> What if i were born a stool? Would I like people sitting on me? Would i have chosen sikhism later? Silly question because you know that you cant answer this sensibly. if you were born to another set of parents well mate that wouldnt be you, that would be someone else.



Yah, I pointed out the flaw in my own argument in the original post..



skeptik said:


> Forget about this - choosing ones path bullshit. Its for phudus who have too much time on their hands. Ask instead, how can i be useful member of society? How can i contribute to the hapiness of my family? How can i be successful in my life? Things like that are more useful questions to ponder.



Firstly, I will admit those questions are also important but I wasn't really talking about chosing a path. I personally tend to reject concepts like fate and destiny. I don't see how people can really believe in it. THere is no proof or evidence that states that all our actions are controlled by some deity. Fate, come on ppl, give me a break



skeptik said:


> Nonsense. You arent an atheist. Your a sikh who is too lazy to live as one. Just do it. Read your japji sahib, do your seva, take care of your family, and be a useful member of society. Work on the basics, thats the point.



Okay this little piece annoyed me. I am not an atheist? How can you even say something so bold without even knowing me. You read one little blurb I wrote in 10 minutes and think you can correct me on whether or not I am sikh. I am not too lazy to be a sikh. I would be a sikh if I thought that any of the teachings were at all necesary to be a moral, functioning adult. I have never been provided substantial proof that  god even exists and if he does I have never been provided any reason to belief sikhism over any other religion. 

If you can provide any real factual evidence that shows me why you think I should be sikh (or heck even why you are a sikh) I might start reconsidering sikhism. I do not really want to hear "stop the nonsense, you are a sikh" or even "it's just something you have to believe".

I think that most people these days don't have any real, tangible evidence that explains why they are religious in the first place and secondly why they subscribe to one religion over another


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## skeptik (Nov 2, 2006)

> I personally tend to reject concepts like fate and destiny. I don't see how people can really believe in it.


 You reject them because people these days are so self obsessed and selfish that they cant see beyond themselves. Thats the main reason - forget about 'questioning beliefs' and things like that. 

Let me point out one important thing - you arent Guru Nanak - You arent Ramanand or Kabir or Naam Dev or any of those spiritual fellas. You're just another face in a sea of faces in the 21st century. They questioned and we should learn from what they taught. There is no need for every single person in our society to question everything, without a good reason. And no your reason isnt good enough - "The worst thing I think people can do is just blindly accept what they are told without questioning it" - its not the worst thing. I happen to think the Sikh faith is good enough that it doesnt need to be questioned every two seconds by every second Rahul who gets up on a 'But Guru Nanak Questioned' trip. Yes Guru Nanak did. No that doesnt mean you should do the same too. It doesnt follow at all that you should, just because he did. He also wrote Bani and started a new religion - are you going to do that too? He also travelled the world teaching people about his faith - are you going to do that? Imagine if everyone in our society did those things - who would do the work? Who would run the businesses, milk the cows, feed the kids, harvest the crops, write the books, run the races, paint the walls, marry the kids, etc. 

You dont believe in fate or destiny because you cant accept that there is a point to living, beyond your own amazing existence. you are so in love with yourself that you need a reason for not being so in love wiht yourself - and believing you are such an individuaul that you wont follow the grain, and do what others do. But no reason will be good enough to make you choose against being in love with yourself. No abstract God can do that. Fate and destiny constrain your precious individuality - which you love so much that you put it above the basics of your Sikh faith - which emphasises instead, the good of the community, and ones role in being a productive and useful member of your direct community. 



> Okay this little piece annoyed me. I am not an atheist? How can you even say something so bold without even knowing me. You read one little blurb I wrote in 10 minutes and think you can correct me on whether or not I am sikh. I am not too lazy to be a sikh.


 Sorry bro, but I know who you wrote very well because what you wrote is very familiar to me. Ive heard such things expressed a dozen times, and ive thought about these and on those thoughts myself. Their selfish and destructive. You arent an athieist, you only think that way because its romantic to be an Individual - to stand out of the crowd - but why should that be any better? You might convince yourselfg that you've thought yourself into that position but the truth is, you just took whatever others do, and reversed it. Your choice is just as arbitrary really as the original one.  Basically you dont want to believe in a God because you already believe your the master of your destiny and you cant accept anyone else having power over you. You are your own God. But this is false, not because God exists and he has power over you - i dont know that, no more than you do. But because there are many people in the world who have power over you. Your president could have your arrested and sentenced to death for being a dodgy terrorist - a rich man could pay a bum to have your throat sliced. Another could buy your freedom by offering you millions and millions of dollars. Are you really that free - even just amongst mere morals? Think about it.



> would be a sikh if I thought that any of the teachings were at all necesary to be a moral, functioning adult. I have never been provided substantial proof that god even exists and if he does I have never been provided any reason to belief sikhism over any other religion.


 You wouldnt be a Sikh? Thats news to me. You do know that not every Sikh is a revolutionary, anti establishmentarian, dont you? I mean the way you people think these days, you'd think those fools who become the Guru's Sikhs in those days were fools, for giving up their freedom and deciding to follow some Guru dude, even though if they really were good Sikhs they'd just sit there questioning everything. What a joke.



> f you can provide any real factual evidence that shows me why you think I should be sikh (or heck even why you are a sikh) I might start reconsidering sikhism.


You want proof? Are you f**king stupid? No one can prove to you why should believe something, no less believe a religion. I can give you good practical reasons but you really have to put down the 'me me me' attitude, that disgusting 'individuality' above all costs sickness and think about what im about to say:

Do it because being a good Sikh means you are a good useful and respectable member of society. You will live your life in the rich tradition of the Sikhs, who have fought long and hard to keep their communities safe; who've cherished good society and always tried to keep it going, even through the most difficult times. If you can read the history of the SIkhs, and feel some affinity to those people and what they have achieved through selfnessless - and complete disregard for selfish notions of 'individualism' then you'll have learnt an important lesson. This by the way is somethign the Sikh faith can give you - that no other palatable faith can give you. Not liberalism - the biggest religion of the moment. Sikhi. 



> I think that most people these days don't have any real, tangible evidence that explains why they are religious in the first place and secondly why they subscribe to one religion over another


 None exists, stop looking for it or demanding it. If you are a member of the sikh community, you should be a useful and positive member of that community. If you question everything and anything in the community you'll just be a cynical bast**d who does little good, but finds plenty to complain about. Dont question just for the sake of questioning - question when there is a good reason. 

By the way if all of this is harsh, then yes it is, but i am not purposely trying to be cruel. I do want to help you, i just think you need to be shaken up into doubting the nonsense individualism that has taken hold over you. 

Consider in the past men gave their lives to a cause, they fought for principle, they lived to find a cure, to teach the young, to protect the weak, to die for their people. Even today, men and women work their lives to raise their kids in good circumstance. They suffer through the most difficult circumstances so their families can be safe and healthy and successful. These were not wastes. They did something for other people. We should not forget that we live amongst others, and we cant divorce the questions of 'faith and fate, and things like that' from the wider community that we are part of. Even family and friends if you arent concernred about someone you dont know and dont care about. Altrurism is not something to be dismissed away as a myth - its real and pervasive. The Sikhs believe in it. If you are a Sikh - believe in too - and make use of your precious intellect, ability and opportunities.


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## bkd (Nov 3, 2006)

ur karams were good in ur last life so u got to be a sikh and if u do good in this janam then u migh t be able to become a sant in ur next janam cool huh


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## satwant (Nov 3, 2006)

This is an absolute pathetic cry. You are just another sorry pain in place where the sun does not shine person who just dont want to go to temple, do your prayers and keep hair. You just want to be modern, smoke and look cool in front of the chicks. 

Now after many years of being lazy and sitting under your mother's skirt, you decide to ask "Why am I a Sikh"? All I can say is that answers are with you. Go to the gurudwara in the morning and meditate and read about the gurus and their sacrificies so that we all can have a faith called Sikhism. You are the type of person that no one should be your friend as one day you will question, are you really my friend or what is a friend? what a born loser

Satwant


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## muneet (Nov 3, 2006)

Having sikh parents is like finding yourself on a road which you have to trust , leads to something worthwhile. Now you dont spend your time on the roadside thinking you should rather have been present on that yonder junction to be better placed or some other. (you could - if you felt that yonder road would better reach you to your destination. But in case of the journey to the center of your self  every road (every faith) reaches there.
Athism also exists on the "denial of theism"


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## muneet (Nov 3, 2006)

What you are going through - is quite usual in everyones life- you feel lost and confused. Modern life can make you that. But to realise the futility of life the elders say that one should visit a funeral or see patients in a hospital. Once you are convinced of your mortality and the fact that you have a limited time on this life and dont remember a thing before or or will later after death- you will bloody well search for a meaning for all this.
Temple visiting is not important- guru says that the ultimate temple is your self- first the 'presence. has to be there for you to be spiritual. Are you there- no you are scattered outside.- with your feelings, possessions ( even ideas are possessions), relations, career, money etc.


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## jaysangh (Nov 4, 2006)

Well, I guess I have a lot to respond to.

The unfortunate thing is that most of you guys have completely missed the point. Instead of taking this opportunity to offer advice you have instead resorted to personal attacks. Instead of presenting logical arguments you have decided to make assumptions of my character. I feel that I am partly to blame because I may not have done the best job relaying my message. 

I did not make my original post so I could spurt out random anti sikh garbage. I made that post so I could ask some questions. The same questions I talk to my parents about, people at the sikh temple, and officials from other churches. I am in pursuit of achieving a greater understanding of the world around me. I am not here to attack you or your beliefs. I am here to learn about what you believe and why. I came here full of questions seeking answers. I am seemingly leaving here with a handful of insults. 

  From my understanding Sikhism teaches you to be mindful and respectful of other people’s beliefs. I am not seeing that here.

  With that preliminary topic discussed allow me to move on. It seems to me that most of you guys are trying to promote an attitude “you’re a sikh, just listen to what you are told, stop questioning things!” That type of attitude I think is very dangerous. The type of religion a person subscribes to lays out the foundation for how a person will live their life.  It affects all of us at our very core and it is something that is in play in every decision we make throughout our entire adult life.

  It is quite evident that religion is a very important matter. Why is it that I am being asked to shut up and to stop thinking about it? The only reason I question my religion is because I am aware of its importance. Heck, I would rather question Sikhism and later find that it is truly a religion that aligns with my personal life philosophy and cherish it because I understand it rather than blindly follow the teachings.

  Now to discuss the horrendous personal attacks made by Satwant. For the record, I do not smoke, I respect my parents, I am attending university, and I am working while going to school to ensure my parents don’t end up with huge bills. On a daily basis I bus to school and work even though my parents offered to lend me a car. I do this because I care about the environment and because I’d rather not have my parents working hard to pay for my expenses. It troubles me how you so quickly assume that because I am questioning my faith that I am a freeloading, smoking teenager who only cares about picking up chicks. I sincerely hope you that in the future you are capable of looking past these stereotypes that are seemingly blinding you from the truth.

  I have the utmost respect for my parents and my immediate family. I respect my culture and my upbringing and I have not lost touch with my roots. I am still proud of who I am and the country my parents are from. Sihkism is the only aspect of my life that I am questioning. I am not rejecting it nor am I trying to sully it. 

  Now, I shall go to some comments posted earlier by skeptik. I do not think that I am god, I do see myself as an individual in this world but that does not mean that I think that my wants and needs are more important than anybody else’s. I do not wish to discuss the concept of fate and why I do not believe in it. If you wish we may start another thread and discuss it at length but it is not pertinent to this topic. Discussing it here will only lead us on a tangent. 

  I am annoyed, however, by the argument of “you are nothing compared to the guru’s stop questioning them, you may never understand their true intentions”. The argument that we are too stupid to understand entirely what god meant and therefore are in no position to question god isn’t much of an argument. It essentially throws you in a position where logic cannot defeat your argument. It accomplishes nothing except killing any potential for an intellectual debate. 

  And again please don’t respond to this by saying “shut up and go to the gurdwara and listen to what they have to tell you”. That isn’t the answer. I have done that for many years and it is what has led me to where I am today. What a person would gain from the gurdwara mainly helps people that already believe in Sikhism moderately and are being troubled over small details. The concept of a deity, the concept of supernatural beings is really what is troubling me. 

  Also please don’t tell me to give back to my community. By doing so you assume that I already don’t do that. I give back to my community plenty through volunteering (by “my community” I don’t just mean the sikh community, I refer to a larger community consisting of people from all religions and races).

  There is much more I can say, but I will leave it at this and wait for some responses. Additionally, I would like to ask that we stop the insulting. My intent is to encourage intellectual debate about Sikhism, Atheism, and other systems of beliefs. I am not here to bully anybody. If that is why you are here, then I recommend you not waste your time.


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## Dimitri (Nov 4, 2006)

I think you are on a right track or sort of very close. But you are asking way to many questions . Anyway.
Why did Guru Nanak questions _why should I wear Jenau (that thread brahmans wear). Why I can’t sleep with my feet facing that direction. Why should I through the water towards sun whereas my crops are on the other side._

First of all have you ever thought what Akal, Waheguru or God is according to Sikhism. What is the Guru Granth philosophy about this creator of the whole universe. Now to go about understanding this you need to invest time in actually UNDERSTANDING Guru Granth. 

You are asking why I should believe in God, simply because its passed on to you. I don’t know how old you are but this creation, the endless universe, the diversity of creation on this planet, us sitting on it – do you think its all a chance. There is no entity, a creative energy or force behind it?
Sikhism is only about 400-500yrs old. Do you think ppl in Punjab and other part of India who followed Gurus teachings were disillusioned or they had no idea, they probably weren’t intelligent. We living in our current age are better at understanding things as we can use computers, drive and do our jobs – if we loose electricity, or there is some natural/non natural disaster then we probably won’t even know how to go about surviving but that’s alrite, I think we know better. According to Guru Granth, what stops us from accepting/acknowledging that there is some force behind all this creation; the only thing that is stopping you is this *I, *in other words your _humay, _Your own Ahankar. Now that your are capable, big and strong you feel yup there is none of this God stuff. I Know, I am running my show. But what about when you were born, how capable were you then. Before you came out your nourishment was placed in front you, your sustenance was there when u had no capacity of your own – as in your mothers milk. Are you absolutely sure that there is no design behind this? What stops us from not believing is simply our Humay or “I ness” that is talked in Guru Granth. This concept of Humay is discussed big time in Guru Granth. In the end you have to make your own sense of it buddy. Its no point to get info from anybody else. I strongly urge to read about cosmology, biology and all other stuff mentioned in Guru Granth. 

“Lord has established his stocks and stores in *many worlds*. He has replenished them once and for all so that the supplies never run out” (GGS P7). I see none as great giver as you. O Great Giver; you give in charity to the beings of all the continents, *worlds*, solar system, nether regions and universe. (GGS P549).

“having created the creation, He watches over it. By His glance of Grace, He bestows happiness. There are planets, solar systems and galaxies. If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end. *There are worlds upon worlds of his creation. *As he commands so they exist. He watches over all and contemplating the creation, He rejoices. O nanak to describe this is as hard as stell’ (GGS P8).

The fundamental building block of us, microbes, animals, whatever we see in universe are the same – atoms. Basically any matter that we see is combinations of atoms and molecules. At this moments millions of hydrogen bombs are going off on Sun to radiate energy and the same hydrogen is in us human body is 70, 50 or whatever percent water. H2O.

‘What ever is in the cosmos is also to be found within the matter. The enlightened can know this” (GGS P695). “Whatever is in the Universe is also in the matter. Only the researchers understand this” (GGS P695).


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## max314 (Nov 6, 2006)

bkd said:


> ur karams were good in ur last life so u got to be a sikh and if u do good in this janam then u migh t be able to become a sant in ur next janam cool huh



Sounds like something out of _The Lord Of The Rings_ to me.

To *jaysangh*:

I admire your courage to step out of the comfort of your home ground and attempt to set out on a journey of self discovery.  What end your journey comes to, or whether your journey even _has_ an end, I wish you well.

I will not say much on this matter, except this: God has given you your five senses, he has given you hands, a head and a heart.  Every choice you make from now until the death of your human vessel is what you are destined to do.

God is not a Sikkh, nor a Khalsa, nor a Muslim, nor a Hindu, nor a Jain, nor a Christian, nor a Jew.  You may have been born into a particular family with a particular name and a particular 'religion', but you are not limited to what you were born into.

You are limited only by the extent of your own courage, and by your divine destiny.

Embrace your search for Truth, and you embrace God himself.


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## Astroboy (Jul 30, 2007)

I found this article to be of immense help on your discussions.

Sikh basics and misconceptions 
Guide to a Sikh.


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## Saim (Oct 28, 2007)

I was researching Sikhism and I found this site.

I would like to talk about the atheist POV.

Atheists don't necessarily say that a god doesn't exist, they just say that there is no evidence for a god's existence, so we should assume that it (or he or she) doesn't exist.

If you remain unconvinced read the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. It is a very convincing book. It doesn't touch Sikhism (mostly focusing on Judaism, Christianity and Islam) but it does put forth arguments against god and religion in general.


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## drkhalsa (Oct 28, 2007)

Welcome Saim 


Although I am Learner ( Sikh) but I feel same for the Atheist point of view as you think 
that is for withist there is no god till he meet one ...right!?

and that is ok as far as I am concerned 

Have a nice time here and do let us know more about your views

Thanks

Jatinder Singh


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## Sinister (Oct 29, 2007)

These will be the most honest answers that you will receive, so read carefully.

Why am I a sikh? 
Your not

Why should I be? 
You shouldn’t

What proof is there that I should believe?
None

Do I just need to have faith?
That won’t get you anywhere other than a superficial belief in rituals (and your smart enough to know that)



Aside from your meandering lectures on “the unexamined life is not worth living” and ill developed questions, I think you’re right on track in your life. 


I look forward to publishing some more posts and hopefully hearing some intellectual responses.

*Sorry, in order to have an intellectual response you have to able to produce an intellectual question. Exactly what are you asking the members of this forum?  You are asking questions that you already know the answers to! *
You are not the only one questioning the faith…at least come up with a developed question…synchronize your questions into one overarching thesis that covers a narrower sphere that a member can be discuss with impunity on a forum. 

But should a person really structure his/her belief system according to a viewpoint his/her parents held?

Answer: NO

I am in pursuit of achieving a greater understanding of the world around me.

LOL good one. You keep at it. Ill praise you for this. I would recommend you stick to science if you truly are looking for “logic” in your explanations. Religion is more of a social and moral science thus is not always correlated to the stringent rules of nature. But as an intellectual shouldn't you already have this knowledge?

It essentially throws you in a position where logic cannot defeat your argument.
So why ask it? unless you are here to preach. 

If you can provide any real factual evidence that shows me why you think I should be sikh (or heck even why you are a sikh) I might start reconsidering sikhism. I do not really want to hear "stop the nonsense, you are a sikh" or even "it's just something you have to believe".

why am I sikh: because i have tremendous respect for history.
Talk to me and I will have some discourse with you. Maybe we’ll both learn something in the process. 

PS: Keep your posts shorter because they are really boring!
And don’t listen to skeptik, he seems deranged as it is with all his profanities (where are the moderators on this forum?) :down:


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## Saim (Nov 2, 2007)

Sinister said:


> Why am I a sikh?
> Your not


Great point! There is nothing I dislike about religion more than the labeling  children with their parent's religion (your (probably) not a child, of course, but you still are only Sikh because of your family).


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## TGill (Nov 2, 2007)

> Why am I a sikh?
> Your not


 


> There is nothing I dislike about religion more than the labeling children with their parent's religion (your (probably) not a child, of course, but you still are only Sikh because of your family).


 

Bang on target


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## amar7979 (Nov 2, 2007)

*Jaysangh ji,*

*With due respect to your thought process and no comments on that, i would like to share you my views as to why 'i' am a SIKH?*

*Because I have not to worship and appease many Gods and a goddesses and seek the help of so many of them to meet my needs. Rather I depend upon one God who is Omnipresent and is with me where-so-ever I may be. I can meditate on His qualities any where, any time and on every occasion and my seeking His help is so simple and easy that it tempts me to be a Sikh. Because I need not go from door to door to seek guidance and advice. I have all guidance and advice incorporated in one and only one Holy Granth. Because practicing Sikhism is so simple - no complexities of rituals and ceremonies, fasts and austerities, renunciations and reclusions or heavens and hells.*
*This simplicity of faith and freedom of joy are the greatest inducements for me to be a Sikh.*

*Because it is not a faith to be practiced in the temples and living in seclusions. I have to practice it in daily life, behind the plough, on the roadside in the workshop and on the table. I have to be a Sikh at home, a Sikh abroad, a Sikh in society and a Sikh in battle field. I have to be a Sikh in thought, word and deed, a Sikh in my dealings with the world at large and a Sikh-like in all stations of life. Because I need no priestly order to redeem my sins. I am priest to myself. I can stand alone and pray to God for my redemption. He listens to my prayers. I have also full faith in a congregation of my people-devotees of my Guru. We sit together in the presence of our Guru-Holy Granth, sing in chorus hymns from the Granth till we are all one and in harmony with the Guru. We stand up then and pray with folded hands for redemption of our sins, for proper guidance in life and for His blessings for the entire mankind and the Universe. There I feel one with universe, a member of the human brother-hood and lie prostrate at His feet with all humbleness praying for the common good of all friends or foes. *
*What a wonderful prayer! Hence I am a Sikh.*

*Because Sikhism recognizes no caste or creed as high or low nor is there any colour, country or race bar. Its doors are open to the black and the white, to the western and the eastern and to the Negro and the American alike. There are no untouchables with the Sikhs. They run free community kitchens and call them Guru-Ka-Langar. Whosoever may contribute, the ration cooked in the Langar is considered to be that of the Guru. Theirs is only the service that they do in person. It is therefore that even the wealthiest among them and the persons commanding greatest respect male or female are seen cooking meals and cleaning utensils in the Guru-Ka-Langar, here all dine sitting in one and the same row (pangat) and partake of one and the same food regardless of the fact of one's descending from a royal lineage or having in hand a beggar's bowl or of being a Brahman or a Shudra, a Muslim, a Hindu, a *** or a Christian. Again they have common bathing tanks at Amritsar, Tarn Taran and a Baoli at Goindwal, constructed by the Gurus themselves where all are welcome to have a dip without the least distinction of caste or creed. When they join hands in congregational prayers, they place no bar on anybody may be of any nationality or profess any religion. It is this spirit of universal brotherhood, a commonwealth of man in Sikhism that appeals to me to be a Sikh.*
*It is a life to be lived and not a tenet or a philosophy to be preached. It feels worthwhile to be a Sikh…*
*..SO I AM PROUD TO BE A SIKH!!*


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## TGill (Nov 2, 2007)

You would have written something different had you born to a hindu family ...


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## amar7979 (Nov 2, 2007)

*No idea on that Bro’ but all my non-Sikh friends do admire Sikhism for its uniqueness and values !*


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## TGill (Nov 2, 2007)

everything is unique not just sikhism.do we admire everything


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## Sinister (Nov 2, 2007)

There is nothing I dislike about religion more than the labeling children with their parent's religion (your (probably) not a child, of course, but you still are only Sikh because of your family

--Saim

I can assure you that I am not a child (but what defines a child?) *Now if you had any conception of social theory as to why children adopt their parents faith you would not "dislike" this social fact but "understand" why it happens! (more or less be neutral)*

*religion is not blame for this labelling but societal organization and parents themsleves*

from a pure darwinian explanation children are a continuation of the parent species (with slight modification of course). A parent will always think for the benefit of his/her progeny as this is the marker that denotes succession of genetic material (and remember human parents make extreme energy commitments to the rearing process, thus success is wanted). 

Participating the child in a religious social environment increases the level of security a parent feels. This participation is a process through which a child meets new people, makes contacts, makes freinds, etc etc. This active involvement of children in a social setting ensures their survival in an increasingly polarized and competitive environment. Which is why a parent would push a child into religion, sports or any other social setting.

(nowhere is this more true than in multicultural society's where ethnic minorities routinely form "ethnic enclaves"). Please read up on this. 

The parents feel that introducing the child into a religious setting increases the likely-hood of progeny survival. In the end we are a social species and flock towards groups whenever we get the oppurtunity (because they are alway beneficial). You cannot really push your kids into atheism because there is no large mainstream atheistic organization...thus no benefit...which I personally beleive is a shame. 

ties built on community commitment are beneficial to the individual. The community itself can organize and form a politcal organization (which is the case with sikhs in India, america, canada, uk and around the world). This ensures community survival *(perpetuation of organization and continous benefit of membership).*

(this however is a more macro study of group formation).

PS:
an agnostic to an atheist:
*try to understand before you critique and throw out a knee-jerk opinion.*


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## Saim (Nov 6, 2007)

Sinister said:


> There is nothing I dislike about religion more than the labeling children with their parent's religion (your (probably) not a child, of course, but you still are only Sikh because of your family
> 
> --Saim
> 
> ...


Your argument would hold water if other kinds of ideologies (philosophies, political ideologies, political parties) labeled children at birth.


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## Sinister (Nov 6, 2007)

Your argument would hold water if other kinds of ideologies (philosophies, political ideologies, political parties) labeled children at birth.

--SAIM

I will have to disagree with you here again because children born into families are routinely labeled into political or philosophical demographics (provided that the demographic is strong enough to be considered an active movement).

For example when born into a State…. are you not labeled a citizen? Are your views not molded and distorted to become synonymous/receptive with the constitution and laws of the state? 

*I guess you must not like the citizenship that you hold to your respective country? Considering your country just labeled you without permission. And then, dictated to you the laws or moral conduct which will guide your survival. WOW! All of a sudden doesn’t nationality sound radically familiar to a different organization? *

you musn't target and single out religion (which has become a mindless atheist creed over recent years).

In effect you are stating that children are not labeled into the political and philosophical ideology of their parents? Which is not true at all. 

So… you can dislike the social cohesion a faith presents but you cannot dislike the fact that it labels its young, as this is apparent in almost any organization or clan. It’s a social fact for all tight groups; not just religion (for example Guilds, Castes, the KKK, The Nazi’s, The Mafia, nation states, gangs, etc etc)

ANY GROUP THAT HAS SOME COHESION AND AWARENESS OF MEMBERSHIP WILL HAVE A HEREDITARY ASPECT FOR THE PERPETUATION OF THE ORGANIZATION. ONLY THE FITTEST GROUPS SURVIVE. ORGANIZATIONS ROUTINELY MUTATE AND MODIFY. 

ALL SOCIAL FACTS ARE SYNONMOUS WITH NATURAL LAWS.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 6, 2007)

TGill said:


> You would have written something different had you born to a hindu family ...


 

i don't know... i tend to agree with his points and i was born to a completely non-religious family.  it's possible to change one's beliefs as one grows and learns...


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## amar7979 (Nov 7, 2007)

​PROUD TO BE A SIKH!​Who is a Sikh u ask...well​I am a Sikh!​I am born and brought up in this county.​The turban and unshorn hair are part of the Sikh uniform.​No one believes me.​They think I am part of the Taliban.​They think I am an Arab.​They think I am supporting terrorism.​I keep telling everybody:​"No! I am a Sikh!​Sikhs are not part of the Taliban.​Sikhs are not Muslims.​Sikhs are not Arabs."​"Are you part of Islam" people ask?​"Are you an offshoot of Hinduism" others say.​"I have never heard of Sikhs" says another.​I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim. My body and breath of​life belong to Allah- to Raam-the God of both.​Sikhs are a distinct people.​Sikhs are a distinct nation.​Sikhi is a distinct religion of peace, love and equality​for whole humanity.​Sikhs worship the One Supreme Truth, the One Ocean of​Mercy, the One Creator Lord.​Sikhs do not keep fasts, go to pilgrimages or pray to idols.​Sikhs follow three principles of constantly remembering the Lord, living and working​honestly, and sharing with others.​Racists say "Get the rag off your head!"​Ignorant people say: "Why do wear that hat?"​Misguided Sikhs say, "Turban or no Turban what does it matter.​Sikhs should move with the times and learn to integrate with society."​"I think you are mistaken", I say.​"My turban is not a hat.​My turban is not a mere piece of cloth.​My turban is a gift which I cannot discard."​The Khalsa is my distinct image. Within the Khalsa I reside.(Guru Gobind Singh Ji)​I explain,​"My turban is a crown blessed upon my head by my Father, Guru Gobind Singh Ji."​"My turban is a crown of grace, dignity and honour."​"My turban is a crown which protects my head, keeps my hair tidy and is the image of​my Father."​"Its backward to keep your hair!" says one person.​"What is the point of cutting your nails and keeping your hair" says the cunning person.​"There is no significance in today's world of unshorn hair," says the Sikh who has been​led astray.​The Naam, the Power of the Lord's Name, is the Inner-knower of my heart.​The Naamis so useful to me.​The Lord's Name permeates each and every hair of mine.​The Perfect True Guru has given me this gift.​Defending my identity and religion I say:​"You are mistaken dear friend".​"My hair is not useless.​My hair is a gift, a tool, and a technology bestowed upon by body by the Creator Lord.​Each and every hair on my body has a practical and spiritual function.​Each and every hair on my body is like electric wires, which vibrate and pick up spiritual​energy.​Each and every hair on my body vibrates the energy, the power and spiritual force of​meditating on the Lord.​The hair on top of my head protects my skull and brain.​The hair above my eyes prevents sweat and water going into my eyes.​The hair on my body insulates my body, keeping me warm inthe cold, and cool in the​heat.​The hair under my armpits prevents friction and irritation when moving my arms.​My nails are dead material, which are cut to be hygienic, or they would snap off by​themselves gradually.​My nails are cut to be clean and tidy, and my hair is combed twice daily to remove dead​hair to be tidy. My nails are not part of the Sikh uniform.​"I see! That is amazing" says one person.​"Fair enough, I am sorry" says the cunning person.​"We have beautiful religion, a great gift given to us and we are so lucky to be blessed​with such a technology and honour" says the Sikh who was led astray.​Dont hide your faith and idenity. Share it with the world.​Dont be ashamed of who you truly are, walk with your head held high.​Remember brothers and sisters your image is the manifestation of Guru Gobind Singh​Singh Ji & Mata Sahib Kaur.​I’M PROUD TO BE A SIKH!!!​ 
Source link .....http://static.scribd.com/docs/35wzoukq8ygl7.swf?INITIAL_VIEW=width​


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## kay (Nov 8, 2007)

That's a very good question my friend, 

there are many world religions out there, how do you know you are on the right one?

Well I have a great answer for you!

Firstly please do realise that if a sikh does not follow his scriptures, that does not make him really a sikh. This is the same for all other religions. 

Check this link out, and look into it further, trust me, there is only 1 truth!

YouTube - Miracles of the Quran

I have more information for you, but please do let me know.

Sorry to all other fellow humans, i do mean to offend any one.


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## kay (Nov 8, 2007)

Friend (skeptic), you are being very irrational! Use some common sense god has given you. He has given all humans an intellect, please use it! sorry but no offense.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 8, 2007)

kay, could you please stop preaching islam in a sikhism forum?  it's really annoying. 

thanks!


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## Sinister (Nov 8, 2007)

kay said:


> Check this link out, and look into it further, trust me, there is only 1 truth!
> 
> YouTube - Miracles of the Quran
> 
> ...


 

OH LOOK ANOTHER MISSIONARY! I watched the documentary (if you wish to call it that at all). It was excruciatingly boring and filled with typical religious propaganda. 

your link has very little to do with anything being discussed on this thread?
In fact, I dont even think you read anything on this thread. 

*the quran simpy restated the existing knowledge of society during that era.*
GO TO:
Islamic Science: Does Islamic literature contain scientific miracles?
so in essence science may or may not agree with islam. The fact that the Quran agrees at some points is out of convenience rather than a proof of divinity.
 
PS: take no offense (I love it when people add that at the end of contraversial posts)
Now a sikh that tries to varify and solidify sikhism with science is just as dillusional as you. I hold steady on this conviction.


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## kay (Nov 8, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> kay, could you please stop preaching islam in a sikhism forum? it's really annoying.
> 
> thanks!


 
this guy is searching thats why i am preaching on this forum to him, also people are spreading the wrong information about islam on this forum, if you tell people to stop spreading the wrong info, i will stop preaching the truth. 

Sorry.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 8, 2007)

kay, i HAVE asked people to stop spreading hate against islam, just read my posts and you will see this.

sikhism teaches us that all religions are valid... none is "right" or "wrong".  a muslim should be a good muslim and a sikh should be a good sikh.

now will you stop preaching?   thanks!


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## wizesikh (Nov 8, 2007)

lol Thank You for your post Kay,

See that my friend, when you say "I am not a Sikh" look at all the offers you are getting.

Islam steps forward first and asks you to join them (Join today and you get Free Circumcision),
Hindus are on the other side (Join today and you get Free Dhoti),
Christians are also ready to accept you too (anytime, anyplace, everywhere Free Bible)...

And then of course there is a option for being Atheist (Nothing free, better have money cuz faith doesn't exist where god doesn't exist, that means no money no honey)

The next few lines might offend people so please forgive 

l*<<<<<<<<<<<<<< deleted - contents found offensive to one's faith>>>>>>>>>*

*Sikhism does not encourage comments from members which deliberately degrade the Rehat Maryada.*


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## TGill (Nov 9, 2007)

> Kelly ji
> i don't know... i tend to agree with his points and i was born to a completely non-religious family. it's possible to change one's beliefs as one grows and learns...


 
Oh ok, great ! Please don't change them again as you grow and learn further. Remember you are a sikh(learner).....


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## amar7979 (Nov 12, 2007)

kay said:


> Friend (skeptic), you are being very irrational! Use some common sense god has given you. He has given all humans an intellect, please use it! sorry but no offense.


 


jo ibnu prqIqI kptI kUVI kUVI AKI mItdy aun kw auqir jwiegw JUTu gumwnu ]3]
_Guru Raam Daas Ji Raag Soohee 734_ 
j*o* b*i*n parath*ee*th*ee* kapatt*ee* k*oo*rr*ee* k*oo*rr*ee* akh*ee* m*ee*ttadh*ae* o*u*n k*aa* o*u*thar j*aa*e*i*g*aa* jh*oo*t(h) g*u*m*aa*n ||3||
_Those who lack faith may close their eyes, hypocritically pretending and faking devotion, but their false pretenses shall soon wear off. ||3||_


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## Anoop (Nov 12, 2007)

Lol...muslism tryign to question the sikh faith... thats how they get people converted..what a bad way to do so...listen...

Sikhism teaches that all religions are the same. There have been peopel from different faiths questioning sikhi people... 'why do you wear a turban..ther is no reason...and peopel actually convert to anjother religion...how stupid...peopel dotn look deep into what sikhism..its spiritual religion..infact its not even a religion..its how mankind should act..about the turban..thats a way to show your identity that u are pure... its not as big as teh teachings in the sri guru geranth sahib jhi...so dnt question the way sikhs look...question our holy guru granth sahib ji...its basically the worlds encyclopedia.... and miracles...what are you on about?  Miracles..its liek your trying to state that this world is cruel..and a miracle...has made u happy from their alienated world?...Man...its too much of a formality or being afanatic talking about miracles..its liek u all talking about power rangers or some movies...thats why i disapprove soem religions....they talk about proving that quaran or so is the words of god...LISTEN PEOPLE...Everything is the word of god....sikhism is scientific and straight to the point..its scientific....its philosophy of the gurus...it speaks TRUTH...no alienated stuff or anything that sounds like a greek myth..or power rangers..nothing like that....


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## kay (Nov 12, 2007)

Anoop said:


> Lol...muslism tryign to question the sikh faith... thats how they get people converted..what a bad way to do so...listen...
> 
> Sikhism teaches that all religions are the same. There have been peopel from different faiths questioning sikhi people... 'why do you wear a turban..ther is no reason...and peopel actually convert to anjother religion...how stupid...peopel dotn look deep into what sikhism..its spiritual religion..infact its not even a religion..its how mankind should act..about the turban..thats a way to show your identity that u are pure... its not as big as teh teachings in the sri guru geranth sahib jhi...so dnt question the way sikhs look...question our holy guru granth sahib ji...its basically the worlds encyclopedia.... and miracles...what are you on about? Miracles..its liek your trying to state that this world is cruel..and a miracle...has made u happy from their alienated world?...Man...its too much of a formality or being afanatic talking about miracles..its liek u all talking about power rangers or some movies...thats why i disapprove soem religions....they talk about proving that quaran or so is the words of god...LISTEN PEOPLE...Everything is the word of god....sikhism is scientific and straight to the point..its scientific....its philosophy of the gurus...it speaks TRUTH...no alienated stuff or anything that sounds like a greek myth..or power rangers..nothing like that....


 
friend proove it?


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 12, 2007)

kay said:


> friend proove it?


 
prove what, exactly?  how does one prove faith?  this is not some hard science where mathematical equasions mean anything...  although we could probably make up some tests to "prove" things if we cared...   

Sikhs believe that God is beyond our understanding and comprehension.  how could we mere mortals understand something as overwhelming as God?  and how could we possibly devise tests and formulas to prove something as great as God? 

any "test" that "proves" God is just your ego taking over, nothing more.




ਮੰਨੇ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
Mannė kī gaṯ kahī na jā&shy;ė. 
The state of the faithful cannot be described. 

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਪਿਛੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ॥ 
Jė ko kahai picẖẖai pacẖẖuṯā&shy;ė. 
One who tries to describe this shall regret the attempt. 

ਕਾਗਦਿ ਕਲਮ ਨ ਲਿਖਣਹਾਰੁ||
Kāgaḏ kalam na likẖaṇhār. 
No paper, no pen, no scribe 

ਮੰਨੇ ਕਾ ਬਹਿ ਕਰਨਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
Mannė kā bahi karan vīcẖār. 
can record the state of the faithful. 

ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
Aisā nām niranjan ho&shy;ė. 
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord. 

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੨॥
Jė ko man jāṇai man ko&shy;ė. ||12|| 
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||12|| 

SGGS P.3


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## S|kH (Nov 12, 2007)

wizesikh said:


> lol Thank You for your post Kay,
> 
> See that my friend, when you say "I am not a Sikh"  look at all the offers you are getting.
> 
> ...



Lol, how old are you? That you truly believe that religious people dont get depressed or go thru hell in the mind-state, and that atheists end up in mental institutions because they have no hope and are all craving money?

Atheism is one of the most liberating experiences existing to man, currently. Think about it, you lose all division with other humans, you walk around and you no longer see someone as hindu, sikh, muslim, black, white, asian. They just exist, they just are, if they are in need of help, you will help, not because of you wish to get in better grounds with an over-seer (which to me sounds a little selfish), but mainly because you do not wish your fellow human to suffer.

Is that hard to believe?

JaySingh, I took the step your thinking of taking. It was by far the most liberating experience ever. The fundamentalist Sikhs who run gurdwaras and the half of the responses you've recieved in this thread are main reasons why kids get pushed away. Apologetic Sikhs just fall into the hands of the fundamentalist institutions.

On a side note, it definitely feels good not to have some other sikh give me lip-service on the type of gel im using in my dhari, or that its tied up too tight and it shouldn't be tied up at all, or that I shouldn't be eating meat, and should practice on my shabads. 

Although, I didn't give up the Sikh identity, I definitely made it a clear point that I am no longer assosciated with Sikhism. Well, I guess I never kept the identity since I used to fix my unibrow every few years growing up, so  I guess I never kept any of the 5 K's, so I was never a Sikh? So, I could never become an atheist? Maybe I was a theist, that turned to an atheist?

Who Knows. Life's short. Liberate your mind.

I tried for years to maintain being a Sikh with an athiestic mind-state, it just doesn't mix well. It caused years and years of turmoil and depression. I finally accepted the fact that this is the way my brain works. I over-think far too much, I am very analytical, and rely solely on fact, reason, logic and rationale. As I grew older, and further went down the path of finding the truth I noticed so many lies which believers just assume to be true because the "holy" did it. Never appeased my mind, I doubt it ever will.

Why do I keep my head hair? Well, thats whole another thing that I refuse to get into with some of the fanatics here. I don't want to hear anymore of the "just cut it all" ridiculous answers. 

I also love how society acts as if to "believe" is good, and the analogy that people pushing you to simply believe in God without any scientific proof is equilvalent to pushing your child into the doctor's room to receive his Hepatitis B shot. One has science behind it, the other....well, it just feels "good."

This is Darwinism at it's finest. Humans are scared to see change or different views. This is why we have so many rehits, in order to be the one that survives, they want everyone else to be like that, to look like them, so they feel no difference. So, everyones on equal playing field.


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## S|kH (Nov 12, 2007)

> wizesikh
> 
> even science makes it clear "those who believe in god are much stronger and healthier human beings compared to those who dont"
> (I dont have the reference for it, but look it up on Google and u should find some info.)



Lol, where do you come up with such crazy replies?

If you read any world news or magazine, it is clearly identified that the poorer countries are one where religious flourishes. Now, are poorer people healthier than others? Starving nations tend to be far more into religion and influenced by it than wealthy "i'm happy and fat and healthy" nations. 

So, where did you reach your conclusion? I have The Economist, Time Magazine, and any publication not backed by some Prophet defending my theory with the correlation to the poorer being more religious. It's almost common sense. 

Out of all the nations, only case that sticks is Vietnam. Poor nation, but atheist society. Europe = Agnostic leaning towards Atheism.

People need to stop pulling facts out of the air.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 12, 2007)

S|kH said:


> Atheism is one of the most liberating experiences existing to man, currently. Think about it, you lose all division with other humans, you walk around and you no longer see someone as hindu, sikh, muslim, black, white, asian. They just exist, they just are, if they are in need of help, you will help, not because of you wish to get in better grounds with an over-seer (which to me sounds a little selfish), but mainly because you do not wish your fellow human to suffer.


 

i don't think this is true for the majority of atheists...  if it were, they wouldn't spend so much time trying to convince religious folks that we're wrong, we're stupid, we're screwing up the world, and all the other things atheists routinely accuse us of.   the divisions still exist, it's just that as an atheist you feel superior to ALL religions, not just selected ones. 

just my personal experience, of course.


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## S|kH (Nov 12, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> i don't think this is true for the majority of atheists...  if it were, they wouldn't spend so much time trying to convince religious folks that we're wrong, we're stupid, we're screwing up the world, and all the other things atheists routinely accuse us of.   the divisions still exist, it's just that as an atheist you feel superior to ALL religions, not just selected ones.
> 
> just my personal experience, of course.



In generalization, yes you are right. But, I've definitely been approached THOUSANDS of more times by a random christian knocking on my door to convert me, or a random Sardar at the gurdwara who would comment on my Pugh/Dhari or whisper comments about me to other Sikhs than have had a random atheist approach me and tell me that my religion was bs (because I look like I am a "Sikh"). 

Second, if your that deep into philosophy that your actively researching it on the internet and engaging in debate, you usually don't belong to the normal, and generalizations cease to exist. 

I was giving jaysingh a new take on it. He's not a normal kid if he comes to an internet forum and types up his mind-state and has anonymous people comment on it. He's obviously done some research before and is making an informed decision. This isn't the story about a kid who cut his hair randomly to disobey his parents and follow MTV. 

He realizes the value of the culture, identity, and everything. His mind-state is that of atheistic views. 

BUT, I can make generalizations all day about Sikhs and/or religious people if you wish me to do so. I'm sure we can both cite numerous examples, but this is sikhphilosophy.net and we have to be smart enough to know the crowd we are writing too.


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## wizesikh (Nov 12, 2007)

- S|kH

before I go ahead and provide references for the stuff i pulled out of the air lol....

I got a quick question for you, (never met a sikh atheist before so had to ask this question)


What is your purpose in life?


(go ahead answer that question while I start pulling out scientific evidence and facts, just for you )


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## S|kH (Nov 12, 2007)

wizesikh said:


> - S|kH
> 
> before I go ahead and provide references for the stuff i pulled out of the air lol....
> 
> ...



lol @ sikh atheist. I guess, if that's what you wish to call me. I'm not really Sikh though.

What is my purpose in life? Liberate people's minds, change the world, help the poor, connect the wealthy nations with the starving nations in a newer vehicle. End the stupidity of television which controls the masses, mass media entertainment. Lots of purposes in life, all which are relevant to this life and this time period.

Yes, I have no goal or purpose in life that consists of merging with some infinite being to live forever or re-incarnate myself as some better being. 

My purpose in life is to help humans, today.  

I'm eagerly awaiting your scientific evidence


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 12, 2007)

S|kH said:


> lol @ sikh atheist. I guess, if that's what you wish to call me. I'm not really Sikh though.


 

actually i'm curious too...  why would an atheist keep sikh bana?  do you get some benefit from keeping a turban and beard outside of being sikh?  i'd like to learn more about this.


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## S|kH (Nov 12, 2007)

Here's some of my evidence :

Atheist doctors more likely to care for the poor than religious ones | Press Esc

ATHEIST DOCTORS MORE LIKELY TO CARE FOR POOR THAN RELIGIOUS PHYSICIANS

Do Religious Physicians Disproportionately Care for the Underserved? -- Curlin et al. 5 (4): 353 -- Annals of Family Medicine
Do Religious Physicians Disproportionately Care for the Underserved?

*CONCLUSIONS : Physicians who are more religious do not appear to disproportionately care for the underserved.*

Isn't that one of the main things you guys big up on? "Be a doctor and help the poor, our religion teaches us to do it." Seems like ALL the HISTORY of religion, it hardly EVER effects them in actual practice.

RELIGION CORRELATES TO POVERTY AND POOR 
ATHEISM TO WEALTH AND HIGHER LIVING STANDARDS

The Washington Monthly

outliers : United States (always the outlier for this type of data, and I can explain why if you wish to know) , Kuwait, and some others.

You see Africa as opposed to Western Europe, Eastern Europe?

Yet, you continue to say you have facts stating the EXACT opposite?

I'm intrigued to say the least.


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## S|kH (Nov 12, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> actually i'm curious too...  why would an atheist keep sikh bana?  do you get some benefit from keeping a turban and beard outside of being sikh?  i'd like to learn more about this.



     Hm, this is a very intricate and complex feature of me that is very hard to explain to someone who has not "grown up" with me. 

Do I get a benefit from keeping a turban and beard outside of being a Sikh? I'd say so, when I walk around or walk into a room my presence demands respect or questioning because I look so different. I usually tend to wear baggy sweatpants around school, and a variety of shirts, and generally dress like I'm very poor. I usually just wear free t-shirts I picked up from some organization or event I attended (lol :wink. Personality-wise, I don't hold much relevance to image, and part of my personal campaign is to show America that regardless of image (A poor, urban-dressed, middle-eastern descent male) can still be intelligent and make it out. 

I believe image and everything that we take it today is controlled by the mass media. I absolutely can NOT stand the mass media and television to be specific. This is my personal  "renegade" against them, because I refuse to conform to what MTV says I should.

My family, although mostly being atheist holds the Sikh identity in high regards, because that is the way my parents were raised. We're a Team, so to say. We all fully realize that the identity will go away in 1-2 generations or be so spread out it will filter out due to natural selection, but we are the only ones that keep it. I grew up with NO other Sikhs, and only my brother who is 3 years older than me. It's just this team mentality, you can't turn your back on your team. I don't believe in the religion, and my parents know that. I wouldn't crush my mom's heart for something that I think is irrelevant feature to me that I don't mind and don't allow to hold me back in any way. By all means, my mom is not religious, but she is intelligent on sikhism and does keep her kesh, and was raised doing so.

Last, and probably the biggest reason, I'm still young, will I waiver and my philosophy change as time goes on? Most likely. I was a Sikh for a long period of time, and it taught me A LOT about life, and changed my outcome considerably. Me keeping an article of faith which is esteemed by Sikhs is a sign to show respect to the creators of a philosophy, which have led the foundation to let me explore and reach the ground I stand on now. It's an ode of respect. 

Maybe there's a day I'll come back to the Sikh fold -- at that point, I don't want to be bald and never have the ability to grow out my hair (I'm already balding :hmm: lol) 

And then there's a LOAD of other reasons which I will leave out for another time. 

I'm a strange kid, that's all I can really say. I do things because I reach a conclusion either through experience or extensive knowledge and analytical reasoning that this is what I want to do. If knowledge and reasoning overcome the experience, maybe I will adapt to it. As reason and knowledge is the path to truth, which is above all. 

The better question is ... why should I cut my hair? what would I gain?


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## kds1980 (Nov 12, 2007)

> CONCLUSIONS : Physicians who are more religious do not appear to disproportionately care for the underserved.



i have a question .the religious doctors that were surveyed how much practising they are
You cannot define a person as religious in single sense.The level of how  much a person 
practise a religion is diffrent in people



> RELIGION CORRELATES TO POVERTY AND POOR
> ATHEISM TO WEALTH AND HIGHER LIVING STANDARDS
> 
> The Washington Monthly
> ...



It only proves that poor people are more religious and rich less and i agree with it.
poor people try to find their happiness in religion because they don't have money

As far as africa is concerned It is a third class example of showing that religious people are poor.Europeans are rich because of industrial revolution. and because of their colonial era

recentlly a noble prize winner came up with theory that black people are less in intellect because africans were unable to create any civilisation.I guess this theory is more sensible
do you agree with this?

also each day many surveys and scientific theories are published do you agree with all
of them.Just visit sites like stormfront and they will show many scientific studies that how whites are superior and blacks are fool.


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## wizesikh (Nov 13, 2007)

S|kH said:


> lol @ sikh atheist. I guess, if that's what you wish to call me. I'm not really Sikh though.
> 
> What is my purpose in life? Liberate people's minds, change the world, help the poor, connect the wealthy nations with the starving nations in a newer vehicle. End the stupidity of television which controls the masses, mass media entertainment. Lots of purposes in life, all which are relevant to this life and this time period.
> 
> ...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
by the way I didnt call you a Sikh Atheist, Your username is Sikh , and you said your beliefs are that of a Atheist ... so I just put 2 and 2 together 


ok so here we go..

First of all, id like to congratulate you and let you know your not a athiest.. lol
You are a agnostic. Basically a person stuck on a bridge between "god is? .. god is not?"

secondly,


Thanks for answering my question, by the way you have great goals but none of them are "a purpose" you are just pointing out things that you believe need to be changed.

You can become a billionaire like opera, and help the poor (trust me she has helped a lot of people in Africa) 

you can become like bill gates and donate money like crazy and help others...

but at the end they all say one thing... the world is still hungry... even with all our wealth combined people will still remain hungry...

now imagine how much brain power it takes to make so much money to help others?
its like winning the lotto... not many people have the financial power/ political power to get ahead and help others the way u are trying to do....

but then here comes a lil old lady, who just prays and helps.. prays and helps... (naam japna, seva karna)  and guess what she gained popularity all over the world, (jaapji sahib as evidence : those who constantly dwell on the name of god gain infinite powers)

so basically just by praying, and helping she was able to accomplish much much more of what any of the rich guys , opera, bill gates did... 

who was she? Mother Teresa... I know she is not Sikh .. lol but your sikhi is not limited to religion, it is more scientific then religion ever is, and far more logical then science itself will ever be.

Mother Teresa  worked on the basic principals of your SIKHI, of Guru Nanak. Naam Japo, Seva Karo..

so now .. what are your chances of getting your bank account to have the exact same balance as opera/bill gates? Compared to your chances of getting up and going to a homeless shelter to help feed the hungry, while doing simran?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part 2... the saga continues...

Religious people do become depressed.. but there is a  reason for their depression, the reason is this that they are trying to reach god and are unable to... that is why they become depressed.. Guru Nanak Dev Ji also became depressed and when a local dr. was trying to find the cause , Guru Nanak Dev Ji Replied and said "It is not the body that needs to be fixed, it is the soul"

Those words of Guru Nanak Dev Ji hold fact till this date... The illness in the body is always related to a mental condition. first your mind gets weak, then the body falls apart.

I know ... I know.. u want "scientific evidence", you would rather believe the buddha with certificates then the Giani who reads the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib...

here :

Diamond, E.L. (1982). The role of anger in essential hypertension and coronary heart disease._ Psychological Bulletin,_ 92, 410-433. (review of the literature which concludes that anger and hostility play an important role in development of hypertension and coronary artery disease) (heart)

(5 chors.. remember, heart disease is realted to KRODH)

but ....

if a Athiest becomes depressed... what is the reason? money? power? greed? lust? attachment? ego?

is there any other reason besides those why, a atheist might become depressed?

Your Guru Nanak made another statement in Jaapji Sahib,
if you get heaven, and if u live forever... what then? what is ur purpose?

Simpler terms;
lets say in a war game, (C&C Tiberium wars) lets say one team needs to defeat the other, your team creates so many tanks, so much man power that you can take over the enemy base with one click....

what then? only purpose you have left is .. Click or No Click ...  what happens after that?
after you defeat everything.. what then?

you can save the world from hunger, you can do exactly and everything that you have stated as your purpose.. but what then?

you will still need to be loved, that is where Guru Nanak says... I have my god.. I am married to him.. A Sikh's purpose is to meet with his God, and God himself can never be reached as defined by Japji Sahib, therefore a Sikh's purpose in life is never complete.. he is constantly in search....  This entire play of hide and seek is described in Japji sahib .. as the hindu gods/ goddess search for god all over the universe and yet they do not find him...  

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You mentioned you keep your kesh because of your family.. your  a team.  They are not your only team members... so are we. 

You also mentioned that the identity will go away in 1-2 generations.... Why underestimate your Guru? your Khalsa? 

You keep your Kesh because you cant stand to break the heart of your mother... just so her heart doesnt break you will keep your kesh all your life.....

then ..

what makes you think a Sikh will let his Identity die because of modern times? a Identity of his Guru, a Identity for which the Saadh Sangat gave their lives? a Identity for which 2 young children were bricked alive......

so much blood, so much sacrifice has been given to keep the Sikh faith alive... what makes you think that we will allow it to degenerate over time? 


  If you cant stand to see your mother’s heart break.. do you think a Sikh will stand to see his Guru’s Sacrifices go to waste?

The blood in my veins has a natural tendency to burst out...... 
This Khalsa is not as small and weak as you might picture it... 

Do not compare your Guru Nanak with the bible, or with the quran, or even the Bhagvat Gita.... Sikhi is Science and Logic at its core.... read some Sakhis of your Guru.. He went against the hindus beliefs of pouring water towards the sun, and the Christians belief of putting all the animals in one boat...  

Guru Nanak traveled all over just to correct religious saints, scholars , etc.. with logic and pure evidence.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Final words…….

I still cant believe you said I was pulling stuff from air.. ? lol .. if voice can travel in mid air and reach a cell phone... if satellites can send HD quality picture to your home in mid air... why cant I pull knowledge from air?

Its true what they say in the GURBANI... when the Guru speaks to you ... you just cant tell anyone.. cuz people demand evidence... its like putting a ladoo in the mouth of a man who cant speak... and so people ask "how does it taste?".. 
.....

Here is your scientific evidence about why belief is in god is healthy... but before you check them out.. I just wanted to say.. dont limit your thoughts with just science, add some faith to your life style, you will feel much lighter… 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dalal, A.K., & Pande, N. (1988). Psychological recovery of accident victims with temporary and permanent disability. _International Journal of Psychology_, 23, 25-40. (prospective cohort study of convenience sample of 41 patients experiencing major injuries within the previous week and hospitalized in government hospitals and private nursing homes in India (ages 16-42, 38/41 male, 48% auto accidents, most from lower middle-class Hindu families, 21/41 permanently disabled; when patient's asked which of 7 factors were most essential to recovery, more than half of both permanently and temporarily disabled patients at both times indicated God's will); causal attributions for accident to Karma and God's will were the factors most strongly related to actual psychological recovery (.37, p<.10, and .24, p=ns, for overall sample), especially at Time 1 for permanently disabled (.43 and .48, both p<.10)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Desmond, D.P., & Maddux, J.F. (1981). Religious programs and careers of chronic heroin users. _American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse,_ 8, 71-83. (prospective cohort study of religious program participation among 248 San Antonio addicts (87% Hispanic, mean age 26, average years of opioid use 8, 95% heroin); over a 12-year period, only 11% entered religious programs (small number); among those entering religious programs, 45% were followed by a year or more of abstinence, which markedly exceeds that from conventional treatment or correctional interventions (2-18%))
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DeVellis, B.M., DeVellis, R.F., & Spilsbury, J.C. (1988). Parental actions when children are sick: the role of belief in divine influence._ Basic and Applied Social Psychology,_ 9, 185-196. (convenience sample of 72 parents with children ages 4-9 and no experience with an asthmatic child, who were chosen by church leaders (Unitarian, Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Lutheran, Episcopalian); given six hypothetical vignettes about illness in their children; examined belief in divine influence and parents' spiritual action in response to illness; concluded that the actions parents endorse in the face of their child's illness may be influenced by beliefs about who or what controls health, in particular beliefs in divine influence may play an important role)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Diespecker, D.D. (1973). Some characteristics of attempted suicide. _Medical Journal of Australia_ 2, 121-125. (84 records of suicide attempts over 12 month period in New South Wales around 1970; compared proportion of religious affiliations with 1966 general census; found that Catholics (n=18) less likely (p<.05), and those with no affiliation (n=5) significantly more likely than might be expected (p<.01); low N, very weak study)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And there you have it.. your certified buddhas who have done their research.... 
if you need more evidence.. let me know.. ill pull out 100s more... I just didnt want to fill this forum up with all of them lol


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh....

and No Guru Nanak's Philosophy, and his Khalsa is not getting knocked out in the coming years.. we are here to stay till the end.

Raj Kare Ga Khalsa


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## S|kH (Nov 13, 2007)

wizesikh said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> by the way I didnt call you a Sikh Atheist, Your username is Sikh , and you said your beliefs are that of a Atheist ... so I just put 2 and 2 together



First and foremost, I want to say thanks for your brilliant post. It is definitely well put together and engages in intellectual discussion rather than emotional flaring. I'd love to see more users post as coherently and stay on topic as you do.

And, time to discuss the points you brought up :



> ok so here we go..
> 
> First of all, id like to congratulate you and let you know your not a athiest.. lol
> You are a agnostic. Basically a person stuck on a bridge between "god is? .. god is not?"



Hehe, I am aware of what an agnostic is. Of course I am agnostic, I think most of the world is, even the people who claim to be religious or part of a religion. Everyone is agnostic to some extent. I claim to be an atheist because on a discussion forum, agnostic is a "soft term". It usually implies one does not know the answer, nor wishes to find the answer, is just too lazy. That's how we always used it growing up. Hence, why I usually take the term of Atheist on. 



> secondly,
> 
> 
> Thanks for answering my question, by the way you have great goals but none of them are "a purpose" you are just pointing out things that you believe need to be changed.



Isn't that what a purpose in life is? I'm not pointing out things that need to be changed, I'm pointing out things I WANT to change in my life-time. That is my purpose of life, it is to change these things which effect humanity drastically in the present. Perhaps, I don't fully understand your question, but I was not simply listing issues with the world, but things I wish to fulfill and fix, hence, my life has purpose.



> You can become a billionaire like opera, and help the poor (trust me she has helped a lot of people in Africa)
> 
> you can become like bill gates and donate money like crazy and help others...
> 
> ...



Your right in that Mother Teresa was an outstanding human being, but I don't see how the comparison to the others you've listed holds up. I feel as if your trying to compare apples to oranges, and because you prefer oranges, you feel they are more of a role model and hold them to higher esteem. Bill Gates, Oprah, and Mother Teresa have accomplished deeds far greater than most humans will ever. They did things in very different societies, sects, and different mechanisms of helping, I don't think you can directly compare the two and say "oh, she is better". Your coming from a religious background, so obviously it makes logical sense as to why you would hold Mother Teresa to higher value than the others. I treat them equally and can not compare them, they bring different resources to the same goal. 

Random tangent, but its like when people compare genocides and killings, as if one method of death or type of people is calculated to be worth more than another type. Who knows? I feel its fruitless to compare them.



> so now .. what are your chances of getting your bank account to have the exact same balance as opera/bill gates? Compared to your chances of getting up and going to a homeless shelter to help feed the hungry, while doing simran?



I don't understand this question lol. Why can't I just go to a homeless shelter and help feed the hungry, while NOT doing simran? What does having to do simran or being religious have to do with it? 



> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Part 2... the saga continues...
> 
> Religious people do become depressed.. but there is a  reason for their depression, the reason is this that they are trying to reach god and are unable to... that is why they become depressed.. Guru Nanak Dev Ji also became depressed and when a local dr. was trying to find the cause , Guru Nanak Dev Ji Replied and said "It is not the body that needs to be fixed, it is the soul"



Really? Depression is a brain exercise. If your close to your family, and your father dies, you get depressed. Religious or not. You learn to live life without, religious or not. You learn to let go, but hold onto his memories and what he taught you, religious or not. 

I'm pretty positive religious people get depressed for very similar reasons as to non-religious people getting depressed, and it depends a lot on personality. I hardly think the sole reason why religious people get depressed is because "they can't reach god yet". What is the base behind this claim? I don't even see the comparison or how this relates to anything. Are you implying Atheists are always depressed then because they don't even try to reach God? Or that religious people don't get depressed when they can't put food on their tables, but donate 1/3rd of their check to the gurdwara? I don't see your logic behind stating religious people only get depressed because they can't reach god.



> Those words of Guru Nanak Dev Ji hold fact till this date... The illness in the body is always related to a mental condition. first your mind gets weak, then the body falls apart.
> 
> I know ... I know.. u want "scientific evidence", you would rather believe the buddha with certificates then the Giani who reads the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib...



When I broke my arm, was that the result of a mental condition? I swear, I fell of a motorcycle, and my arm was in pieces. Or, what about when I had to get surgery and they had to shave hair from that area off, because hair was dead cells that interfere greatly with the process? Should I have believed the "buddha with certificates" when he says a clean surgery has statistics of being 99% safe as opposed to one with hair or multiple other mess in the way having a 10% greater chance of complications arising. Or should I have believed the mighty Khalsa who claim its a test of faith and that I should not lose any hair on my body at any given time?



> here :
> 
> Diamond, E.L. (1982). The role of anger in essential hypertension and coronary heart disease._ Psychological Bulletin,_ 92, 410-433. (review of the literature which concludes that anger and hostility play an important role in development of hypertension and coronary artery disease) (heart)
> 
> ...


----------



## kds1980 (Nov 13, 2007)

> I never said your getting "knocked out" in the coming years. It's a sinking ship, no matter how much you try to deny the facts, the Khalsa is a sinking ship. They will cease to exist or be so disconnected from society. "Guru Nanak's Philosophy" on the other hand, will stay, like all the historical books before it. The Khalsa, even the morals will stay and adapt. The 5 K's and specifically the identity, will not.



I agree with it its very difficuilt for khalsa identity to survive.but i think it will survive but the fact is that may be around 5% of people will keep it.The sites like sikhsangat is good example of this.Many  people of that sites are children of immigrants who settled in U.k,usa, or canada earlier.These people were not much religious and discarded their identity But now their children are coming back to sikhism and even becoming more orthodox and even faNatic.Several times on sikhsangat i read personal accounts of people that how they were clean shaven and had great worldly life but suddenly they came into sikhism ,took amrit and left everything.


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## wizesikh (Nov 13, 2007)

S|kH ---  before I continue... 

its time for another question.

What do you believe happens when you die?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 14, 2007)

kelly ji   you asked Sikh the benefits of keeping bana while being atheist.  i wanted to turn around the qn to you  what is the benefit of bana while being a sikh?


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 14, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> kelly ji you asked Sikh the benefits of keeping bana while being atheist. i wanted to turn around the qn to you what is the benefit of bana while being a sikh?


 

well, i could make up all sorts of things about the hair being an electromagnetic coil or something...   

but honestly, i do it because it's my Guru's Hukam.  and i chose this faith because i trust my Guru.


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## Astroboy (Nov 14, 2007)

That's a nice way of putting it, Kelly Ji.


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## wizesikh (Nov 14, 2007)

I agree. so much easier of a answer. puri di puri gul guru te pa diyeo lol


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## S|kH (Nov 14, 2007)

wizesikh said:


> S|kH ---  before I continue...
> 
> its time for another question.
> 
> What do you believe happens when you die?



Mentally - the same thing that happened pre-birth(conception). Nothingness. Or in other words, there is no possible way for me to find out except to die, so why worry about it?

Physically - My body will go into the soil and provide nourishment to animals and Earth. 

I don't understand how people jump to the conclusion that "there is No God -- My life has no meaning!"

"The two main hurdles of humanity are slow-pain and boredom" --> I have a feeling this is why "God" was created in our minds.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 14, 2007)

so obeying your Guru's will = obeying God's will?


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 14, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> so obeying your Guru's will = obeying God's will?


 


ਗੁਰ ਮਹਿ ਆਪੁ ਰਖਿਆ ਕਰਤਾਰੇ ॥ 
Gur meh āp rakẖi&shy;ā karṯārė. 
The Creator Lord has enshrined Himself within the Guru.
SSGS p.1024


ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ॥ 
Gur pūrā pā&shy;ī&shy;ai vadbẖāgī. 
The Perfect Guru is found, by great good fortune. 

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ 
Gur kī sėvā ḏūkẖ na lāgī. 
Serving the Guru, pain does not afflict anyone. 
ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਮੇਟੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
Gur kā sabaḏ na mėtai ko&shy;ė. 
No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad. 
ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥ 
Gur Nānak Nānak har so&shy;ė. ||4||7||9|| 
Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9|| 

SGGS p. 864


so yes, since Guru IS God, Guru's will is God's will.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 14, 2007)

Guru is God or God is Guru ?


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## Astroboy (Nov 15, 2007)

Bani is Guru and Guru is Bani.
Now the question is - is Bani God ?


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 15, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> Guru is God or God is Guru ?


 

i thought the question was if Guru's will is the same as God's will...  gurbani clearly shows that this is so.

i won't get into your word twisting debates because i know i can't win with you.


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## Astroboy (Nov 15, 2007)

In fact I am in full agreement with Kelly that Guru's will is God's will. In fact Guru teaches us to make God's will our own will. 

"Aise Gur Ko Bal Bal Jayiye, Aap Mukat Mohe Taare"
Chand Afzaal Qawwal - Aise Gur Ko Bal Bal Jayiye


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 15, 2007)

God's wiil = our own Will

i like that answer


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## kay (Nov 18, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> prove what, exactly? how does one prove faith? this is not some hard science where mathematical equasions mean anything... although we could probably make up some tests to "prove" things if we cared...
> 
> Sikhs believe that God is beyond our understanding and comprehension. how could we mere mortals understand something as overwhelming as God? and how could we possibly devise tests and formulas to prove something as great as God?
> 
> ...


 
Why has god given us an intellect? Whats the function of our intellect? whats the source of our intellect? What about the source of apples, bannas, rice, oxygen, rain, water? Don't you think that this source has the right to be recognised, and that we should only obey, worship, follow, listen to, none but him, not any human being no matter what their theories are only but him?
Please no theories!


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## kds1980 (Nov 18, 2007)

kay said:


> Why has god given us an intellect? Whats the function of our intellect? whats the source of our intellect? What about the source of apples, bannas, rice, oxygen, rain, water? Don't you think that this source has the right to be recognised, and that we should only obey, worship, follow, listen to, none but him, not any human being no matter what their theories are only but him?
> Please no theories!



And What's your point .sikhs also worship the god.


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## Parma (Nov 18, 2007)

After you follow make ideas think eat live, get caught up in life is there any point to it all really, what do you really achieve in this life because you die. Others may remember your achievements but whats the use, you only die in the end. The tree grows, grows fruits to sustain life yet in the end it dies. All the time its taken to grow to have fruit to sustain life. All is done for nothing yet this is sensible this is life, this is wisdom to learn and have nothing in learning no real gain. God has taught us of gaining in life the truth because in the end its all that lasts. Nature is just taking its course. Exsistance is nothingness and nothingness is exsistance. Where nothing seems to exsist you will find something and yet where everything exsists you will find nothing. The idea of the tree many exsistances exsist from its fruits, gives out oxygen home to other animals, yet it withers away and after its entirity what really exsists nothing. Look deep and only the truth Of God=Nature= Beyond descripton The truth is ever lasting


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 18, 2007)

kay said:


> Why has god given us an intellect? Whats the function of our intellect? whats the source of our intellect? What about the source of apples, bannas, rice, oxygen, rain, water? Don't you think that this source has the right to be recognised, and that we should only obey, worship, follow, listen to, none but him, not any human being no matter what their theories are only but him?
> Please no theories!


 
i'm sorry, i don't have any idea what "theories" you're talking about or how your post relates to mine.

can you please explain point by point what your problem is? 

thank you.


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## Sikh80 (Nov 18, 2007)

Coming to intellect, it is superior to mind, that is superior to senses and that is superior to body and body... well that is nothing and non- existent in a transition to existent,,,, The Saibhung..the Sat..the Eternal.....the all in all and the causes of all causes.In the end and in the beginning it was and it is and shall BE.
_No theories._


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 19, 2007)

<<
_Why has god given us an intellect? Whats the function of our intellect? whats the source of our intellect? What about the source of apples, bannas, rice, oxygen, rain, water? Don't you think that this source has the right to be recognised, and that we should only obey, worship, follow, listen to, none but him, not any human being no matter what their theories are only but him?
Please no theories!>>_

_maybe its an assumption_


_and you too make an suumption that the "source" has the right to be recognised.._

_now if anyhting is beyond comprehension, all we can do is make assumptions_

_is my assumption better than yours?_

_or someone's better than mine?_

_there is no point of reference...hence any discussion is baseless and will be without an answer._


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## humanist (Nov 19, 2007)

Before we try to unravel the mysteries of God, let us go look at our own existence. "Go" because we need to mentally move out of our bodies, and look at ourselves from the eyes of any rational alien.
Several Rishis (with much greater powers of observation, analysis & synthesis than the majority of us do possess) first attempted to find the answer to the following Qusetion, please:-
Who am I?

Now, if you prefer to join an MBA course (condensed knowledge about what business Gurus _chose_ to share with you) rather than learning about businesses by a personal trial & error method, then the simplest way for you to enter the portals of spiritual mysteries is to join any religious sect; it will teach you to walk (aptly worded, to walk into this wonderful world of spiritualism). Religion is like a kindergarten--the first step towards the long journey to knowledge, not the end of all that is knowable. From then on you are at your own, you have to travel alone along this wonderful path to spiritualism; and you may not _choose_ to share with others what you see as you move along--because you will not be able to convince them about it. They may not be able to understand (much less 'experience') what you have seen unless they, too, personally tread this path. 

If *you *could, then surely the scriptures, too, would have succeeded in convincing us ALL.


----------



## Randip Singh (Nov 19, 2007)

kay said:


> That's a very good question my friend,
> 
> there are many world religions out there, how do you know you are on the right one?
> 
> ...


 
1 Question:

Did Mohammed write the Quran?


----------



## kay (Nov 20, 2007)

randip singh said:


> 1 Question:
> 
> Did Mohammed write the Quran?


 
The logical conconclusion you can draw, after reading the quran is that it is impossible for a man to have writ that, this is also the conclusion drawn from many top scientists in the world,

Islam Guide: Video Clips of Scientists Comments on Science in the Quran on sceince 

Amazon.com: The Bible, the Qu'ran and Science: The Holy Scriptures Examined in the Light of Modern Knowledge: Books: Maurice Bucaille - this scientist analysed a lot of science in the quran, and concluded that there is not a single verse in the quran that contradicts with modern science. 

YouTube - Zakir Naik vs William Campbell-Quran and Bible (pt 1 0f 10) - watch this debate, make sure u find all the clips, otherwise i can find it for you if you want me to, i think they are on the right.


Also the quran gives a falsification test, that if you can find one contradition in it, this is sufficient to say that it is not from God, because god cannot make mistakes!

Friend be wise and think well ahead. There are a lot of garbage out there, but always be searching for the truth, ask god to guide, you and you will find it!


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Nov 20, 2007)

i have a question for Kay...  where in the qur'an does it tell you to push your religion on other people?  just curious because i've read most of it and i've never seen that passage...  

thanks!


----------



## kay (Nov 20, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> And What's your point .sikhs also worship the god.


 
my point is that you are not doing what god wants you to do!


----------



## kay (Nov 20, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> <<
> _Why has god given us an intellect? Whats the function of our intellect? whats the source of our intellect? What about the source of apples, bannas, rice, oxygen, rain, water? Don't you think that this source has the right to be recognised, and that we should only obey, worship, follow, listen to, none but him, not any human being no matter what their theories are only but him?_
> _Please no theories!>>_
> 
> ...


 
an assumption needs evidence to become presumption, presumption needs enough evidence to become a fact!


----------



## kay (Nov 20, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> i have a question for Kay... where in the qur'an does it tell you to push your religion on other people? just curious because i've read most of it and i've never seen that passage...
> 
> thanks!


 
sorry to be annoying, to be honest, i dont think i am approaching you people right, my fault, but yes - its not fair for me to know the truth and not tell anyone else, yes it does say to preach with wisdom.!


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Nov 20, 2007)

kay said:


> sorry to be annoying, to be honest, i dont think i am approaching you people right, my fault, but yes - its not fair for me to know the truth and not tell anyone else, yes it does say to preach with wisdom.!


 

ok, you've preached.  now please back off.  if you'd like to discuss sikh related issues i'm sure people here will be happy to comply.  but if that means telling us we're wrong... well i don't think it's necessary.  i promise you you are not going to convert a single person with this tactic.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Nov 20, 2007)

kay said:


> my point is that you are not doing what god wants you to do!


 

according to who, according to you?  according to your book?   sorry, but i'm afraid i don't agree with you.  

i don't believe god wants you to go around harrassing people into listening to your sermons.  maybe you should look into that.


----------



## kds1980 (Nov 20, 2007)

kay said:


> The logical conconclusion you can draw, after reading the quran is that it is impossible for a man to have writ that, this is also the conclusion drawn from many top scientists in the world,
> 
> Islam Guide: Video Clips of Scientists Comments on Science in the Quran on sceince
> 
> ...



The all you have posted is plain garbage .Just go to Faith Freedom International :: Index and then see how anti islamic scholars will tear your claim into peices.Do you have guts to do it?


----------



## kds1980 (Nov 21, 2007)

kay said:


> my point is that you are not doing what god wants you to do!



Did you know - Quran (4:34) orders a man to beat his wife if she doesn't obey him?
Quran 4:34: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Do you want to say that all men should do what is written above.Do god created men physically stronger so that they can beat their wives. I am sorry to say but only an insane 
person will accept this as word of god


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 21, 2007)

<<an assumption needs evidence to become presumption, presumption needs enough evidence to become a fact!>>

 so please show me "evidence" that "God" or "source" wants to be "understood" and "followed"


----------



## humanist (Nov 21, 2007)

As per Vishnu Puran, a God's Messenger was to be born in Western India to teach the Hindu masses to segregate spiritualism from ritualism. Hence, Guru Nanak was born in Talwandi, and those who followed his teachings were called the 'shishya'. Ultimately, the individual Members of the martial force (raised by dedicating the eldest son in every Punjabi family to this force), also came to be called the 'shishyas' or Sikhs; and the said force was collectively named the 'Khalsa'.


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 21, 2007)

talwandi is in north india


----------



## humanist (Nov 21, 2007)

In the pre-partition Indian map, Talwandi is in the West


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Nov 21, 2007)

humanist said:


> As per Vishnu Puran, a God's Messenger was to be born in Western India to teach the Hindu masses to segregate spiritualism from ritualism. Hence, Guru Nanak was born in Talwandi, and those who followed his teachings were called the 'shishya'. Ultimately, the individual Members of the martial force (raised by dedicating the eldest son in every Punjabi family to this force), also came to be called the 'shishyas' or Sikhs; and the said force was collectively named the 'Khalsa'.


 

are you suggesting that Khalsa is somehow seperate from the original sikh panth?


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 21, 2007)

can you please show me what was pre partition india map?
assuming india in 2000 BC here is what the map would have looked like







this still looks like Talwandi is in north as it is above Hastinapur which seems like North to me.

west would be something like Mahismati


or do you know where the person was when "he/she" wrote Vishnu puran?


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Nov 21, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> or do you know where the person was when "he/she" wrote Vishnu puran?


 

the legendary Vyasa, the supposed author of the purans was from somewhere in what's now UP.

however there's very little evidence as to who the actual author(s) of the puranas were, most likely they're compilations of legends and stories from all over india.

regardless of who wrote it or where he lived, i think it's a broad stretch to assume there's really a story about the sikh gurus in there.


----------



## kay (Nov 26, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> The all you have posted is plain garbage .Just go to Faith Freedom International :: Index and then see how anti islamic scholars will tear your claim into peices.Do you have guts to do it?


 
I have already been to these sites, and I have given u answer to one of the questions people have posed. If u want answers I can help u, but it this is about winnning or loosing, forget it! U will never understand!


----------



## kds1980 (Nov 26, 2007)

kay said:


> I have already been to these sites, and I have given u answer to one of the questions people have posed. If u want answers I can help u, but it this is about winnning or loosing, forget it! U will never understand!



It is mainly muslims who don't want to understand anything and wants to prove that quran is scientific textbook.which is already refuted by many scientists.Btw i don't have unlimited download connection so please reply intexts rather than posting videos


----------



## wizesikh (Nov 26, 2007)

> Hehe, I am aware of what an agnostic is. Of course I am agnostic, I think most of the world is, even the people who claim
> to be religious or part of a religion. Everyone is agnostic to some extent. I claim to be an atheist because on a discussion
> forum, agnostic is a "soft term". It usually implies one does not know the answer, nor wishes to find the answer, is just too
> lazy. That's how we always used it growing up. Hence, why I usually take the term of Atheist on.


  -----------------------------------------------

  Agnostic is a soft term, you are at a point where you cant decide if there is a god or not.. The reason you claim to be a atheist is because I believe you have not yet studied your Guru Granth Sahib ji.


  I agree most people are agnostic, even religious ones.. That’s why we have so much confusion in faith of god.
  We all tend to do what we are supposed to do (rituals, holidays, etc..), but hardly any do it with faith, and realization
  That there is a god. They do it because that is what they are suppose to do.. They don’t have the understanding as
  To why they do it.

  That’s one of the major reasons why people give up on god... because so many people who appear to be religious
  don’t have a clue of where they are headed... That is also the major reason why Your Guru Nanak Dev Ji took the
  duty to come down to earth to help people.. That is why he traveled all over to discuss with all these ignorant
  Agnostic religious holy men about why they perform the religious rituals that they did without true devotion to god...   

  a holy man/women (saint) is a person who people look up to for guidance and love for existence... but when that
  Holy man/women only wears religious garments and has no clue of what god is ... then people Who look up to him develop hate for god... and tend to believe there is no god...

  As human beings we look up to a leader for support and guidance.. but when that leader himself is corrupt..
  and his corruption his discovered.. Then we tend to let go of everything and run the opposite direction.


  ------------------------------------------




> Isn't that what a purpose in life is? I'm not pointing out things that need to be changed, I'm pointing out things I WANT to
> Change in my life-time. That is my purpose of life, it is to change these things which effect humanity drastically in the
> Present. Perhaps, I don't fully understand your question, but I was not simply listing issues with the world, but things I wish
> To fulfill and fix, hence, my life has purpose.


  --------------------------------------------------------

  There is a big difference between WANT / NEED - one reflects desire and the other a requirement.  It doesn’t 
  Matter if you live or die... these things will always exist..   In Sukhmani Sahib it says a man who is virtues 
  Dies and takes many births.. Because he keeps on believing that he is the one who will make the change.
  Therefore he dies over and over again to constantly make an effort to change things... yet nothing is in his hand.
  You have yet to discover your true purpose... but even that is in his hands and under his wishes.
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



> Your right in that Mother Teresa was an outstanding human being, but I don't see how the comparison to the others you've
> Listed holds up. I feel as if your trying to compare apples to oranges, and because you prefer oranges, you feel they are
> more of a role model and hold them to higher esteem. Bill Gates, Oprah, and Mother Teresa have accomplished deeds
> far greater than most humans will ever. They did things in very different societies, sects, and different mechanisms of
> ...


  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  I didn’t compare them with apples and oranges.. .. lol 

  you missed my point... I was not saying she is better then the rest or the rest are better then her..   My point
  was this that a simple old lady.. was able to gain as much wealth and power (probably far more power) by simply
  Praying and helping.  The two (prayer / seva) had such a powerful impact on her life that the energy within her
  touched billions of people..    

  The other two gained financial power by selling either themselves or their product
  and both of them are living life in luxury surrounded by maya.. both of them invested their life on their IMAGE.. 
  their PRIDE..  and when their name comes to an end (product life cycle chart) people will dump them.. Hence their image
  their pride will be trash...   

  But look at the difference.. Mother Teresa helped billions by simple prayer and seva... she did not invest her life
  in HER IMAGE, or in HER PRIDE.. she invested her life in God... and what was the impact?  she embedded herself
  in the hearts and minds of people of all religion all over the world..... 
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



> I don't understand this question lol. Why can't I just go to a homeless shelter and help feed the hungry, while NOT doing
> simran? What does having to do simran or being religious have to do with it?


  ---------------------------------------------------------

  When you help someone or do a good deed.. your body feels good and so does your heart .. ? true ?
  Gurbani makes it clear about the 5 thieves within the body.. the king of those 5 thieves is EGO.

  After you help someone, it is human nature for ego to kick in and say "yes  "I" have done good, therefore "i" am
  better "    what Simran does is it eradicates this ego... by putting gods name forward... 
  It tells the mind "no it is not you that has done good, but it is waheguru that has given you the opportunity to serve 
  and help someone"  ..... that is what creates a humble , loving and forgiving mind..

  That is why  Gurbani teaches that everything is god's will.. so that man does not let "ego" conquer his mind.

  (want evidence? go ahead and do seva for a month without simran, and another month with simran, you will get 
  first hand evidence)
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



> Really? Depression is a brain exercise. If your close to your family, and your father dies, you get depressed. Religious or
> not. You learn to live life without, religious or not. You learn to let go, but hold onto his memories and what he taught you,
> religious or not.
> 
> ...


  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  If your close to your family and your father dies and you have faith in god.. you dont get depressed.. you say "I am coming 
    too, just wait up"  but if you dont have faith in god then well... everything is over.. cuz death for you means "the end".. 
  that will put you in a state of complete depression (depending on how much you loved your family member) because
  you will never ever meet that loved one again... imagine the thought of not meeting your loved one after you die because 
  you dont believe in after life and the law of karma..  (gives me the chills just thinking about it)

  I am not saying that a Atheists person is always depressed , but I am saying is that everything he is aiming for 
  will cause depression , because after death everything that he has done/ worked is OVER.. The END.. 
  but a person who believes in GOD.. continues to live life after death .. hence the law of karma, and the soul / body theory,
  and the theory of reincarnation...   if a Atheist doesnt believe in any of that then what good are the things that he does
  today? or tom?  everything will end the day he dies..    

  A true Saint, Sikh, religious person of any relgion has a  purpose to reach god (Gurbani as evidence). As I mentioned 
    before many relgious people are also agnostics... they are the ones who are worried about financial money or food on 
    their table..

  Principals of Sikhi are very very logical. The Gurbani does not preach killing/ starving your body to give to the Gurudawara.
  The Gurudawara itself gives to the poor so they dont starve .    

  People who dont have anything and still give to the GW are victems of agnostic relgious people who are misguiding them.
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



> When I broke my arm, was that the result of a mental condition? I swear, I fell of a motorcycle, and my arm was in pieces.
> Or, what about when I had to get surgery and they had to shave hair from that area off, because hair was dead cells that
> interfere greatly with the process? Should I have believed the "buddha with certificates" when he says a clean surgery has
> statistics of being 99% safe as opposed to one with hair or multiple other mess in the way having a 10% greater chance
> ...


  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  You missed the point...... again..  Internal wounds are far more dangerous then external. a broken arm, a leg that gets cut 
    off etc.. can all be fixed/ healed. but if you had a broken arm and your mind was weak.. that pain would be
  10000times worse ...  a child who gets a small cut on his finger .. screams as if his entire hand has been cut.. but a adult 
    who gets a small cut .. simply puts a bandaid and moves on...

  The same is with a Sikh who has unshakeable faith in his Guru... He/she develops a very strong immune system (state of 
    mind is attached to god, therefore the body of the human being copies the pattern of god, (humans are copycats, a child 
    copies his parents and learns how to talk before even attending school))...  but when someone or something attacks it 
    from the physical side... his mind accepts the pain as if it was love from God.. 
  (Gurbani as proof: Tera Kiya Meetha Laage) and he continues to live in the same state of mind as he was before the 
    accident, therefore nothing changed.

  Can a Atheist live like that? your arm gets cut off today, that is  25% of your body gone.
  dont tell me you wont lose some mental balance when you lose a arm or a leg ..  dont tell me you wont get depressed if 
    you know your only gonna be living a certain age and on top of that you have already lost a arm... 


  A person who truly believes in GOD (not talking about agnostic religious fools) ... the laws, rules, regulations of
  mankind .. do not apply to him. Belief in God helps man stand out from the rest.. it helps him make impossible.. possible....  

  And about the surgery part....   Je tu Khalsa nu Mighty he nahin samajya te fir ki fark penda hai... lol if my body ever
  got into that position where I would have a choice to remove kesh or die...  I would have the kesh removed.. because 
  if I dont have a body to serve my Guru then what good is the kesh?

  But I would like to add, there comes a time in a person's life where he is so absorbed in the love of God that he is 
  overflowing with faith ... he relies not on a dr. for help, but only and only on god. It is a personal experience which I can not explain to you in words.

  That person falls into a state of mind where his Guru’s Hukam is far more important then death itself. That is the point where miracles happen… and science itself falls in disbelief…. While the rest of the world calls him a idiot.. and atheists use their logic to explain... the truth ends up getting buried under all….

  The result.. a man walks out of his cancer bed healed.. a man with aids walks up and leaves and is healed.. etc.. 

  It is a personal choice, that does not apply to everyone.. only to a few who have a strong personal relationship with god.. 

  The rest of us are agnostics..  and try to imitate the experience.. which results in many mishaps because our faith in god is not strong.. weak mind = weak results
  And people who watch us fail ….gather around and say “oh look god doesn’t exist, look at what happen the poor man who always prayed just died (while in reality the “poor man” always spent his time playing video games and indulging himself in maya and at the last moment he tried to act religious just to save his own ***)

  Also keep in mind, that a person who has faith in god has a 2nd chance, compared to a Atheist, who only has his hopes on the dr...  doesn’t a logical mind say that the more chances you have the better your odds of winning?
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> "But what then" can also be asked to what you say is the answer as to "merge with god"...but what then? What is the
> purpose after merging with him? Now you've attained nirvana, which to me, I would have attained after saving the world.
> We're both in the same mind-state, and physically in the same state (probably dead, beneath the earth or burned), so
> perhaps I attained a form of Nirvana that I could remember, and you achieved it after the fact...but what then? You say
> ...


  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  According to the Gurbani, the circle of problems that you say will always exist, is pierced with the tool of Naam, 
   a Sikh is then able to live out of that circle within the light of God (Guru Gobind Singh Ji mentioned this when he stated he 
    was in the light of God and was then asked by God to enter earth). While the athiest, the agnostic, the Good, the Bad , the 
    confused.. etc.. all are subject to revolve in a secular humanisms purpose in life that is never complete, a Sikh is able to
  walk out of the circle with the Guidance of his Guru. (By the word Sikh, I mean a Seaker of GOD, could be of any religion)

  ------------------------------------------------------------------



> There's one thing that I want to bring up here. Humanity goes in a one-way irreversible path. We can NOT go back to the
> times where Khalsay ruled over Punjab, and the amount was enormous. It's a fact, a mono-culture is spreading
> throughout the world, and it's a fact, any form of physical identity for differentiation is decreasing. You honestly believe the
> Sikh identity has increased in the last 20 years? Not even, lets say the last 5 years? Day by day the clock ticks to our
> ...


  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
  my turn to say... "stop pulling things out of the air". only cell phones and satellites can do that... lol  

  "Humanity goes in a one-way irreversible path" --- Majority of people go one way.. the leaders who are few in numbers are 
    the ones that have the power to reverse the path.. 


  Your entire argument is basically about the identity of the Khalsa. The Philosophy and teachings of Guru Nanak Dev Ji ,
  were true in the past... they are true today.. and will be true in the future. 

  I personally dont believe the 5ks for a Sikh are a requirement, contrary to what you may have been brought up with.. 

  A Sikh is first who submits himself to his Guru.. HEAD on His hand (has already accepted death).  

  For a Soldier to wear the uniform of his senior officer is a Privilege
  For a Warrior to be Given the Sword of his Master is a Privilege

  The Turban, The Beard.. The 5ks ALL are a Privilege for a Sikh. 
  Given to a Sikh by His Guru

  but the realization for that takes time...only a humble .. mature mind can understand this... a young amateur mind will 
    NOT.

  Many parents are Hypocrites / Agnostics, many Religious leaders are Hypocrites/agnostics.. and they are all forcing the 
    youth to keep the 5ks without attaching them to simran and seva... WHY are they doing this? because they themselves 
    dont know where they are headed and are just doing it because even though they don’t have the knowledge.. they have 
    what is called blind faith... hope.. that although they are not able to give proper guidance.. maybe .. just maybe the Sikh 
    ROOP will force the children to seek and search for guidance by themselves...

  That is the reason why the identity seems to look as if it is dieing.. because many are too lazy to look for guidance..
  because many end up with false leaders who give false guidance...
  because many would just rather fit in with the rest and “LIVE” their life
  because many would just say they are Atheist in a attempt to not be bugged about god is this god is that.. 

  Its not easy for a young child to walk into a classroom with hundreds of eyes staring at him and asking him questions..
  for which he himself has no answers .. because his parents have not given him any answers except "just do it"

  But you know what this has really created? it has given birth to a new generation of Sikhs (not talking about those who 
  have cut their hair, or walked out and given up, I am talking about those who continue to fight and look for answers). This 
    new generation of Sikhs can be seen everywhere.. look over the internet.. how many sites have generated about Sikhism? 
  Do you really think the old giani ji at the GW created those sites from Punjab? One sikh  is trying to help another … new generation.. saving itself…
  look at all these forums all over.. look at all the participation discussion.. look at all the samagams... kirtans by youth taking 
    place... look at all the gatkas being played...look at the attempt of the new generation to revive its Khalsa..to spread the message of Guru Nanak… all this on foreign land .... These Sikhs are so firm in their roop and dharam 
    that they speak the western language, and have adopted the western culture to suite their needs. 

  I know you know that’s Sikh’s living in USA were forced to remove their turbans for checkup even after going through a metal detector...  what happen? a Sikh organization interfered and was able to change that rule....  
  Western Culture.. Western Language...    2% of india....hardly 1% with turbans... changed the law for the leading nation in
  the world... how? Because they stood by truth.. (france is up next)

  You claim that your mind thinks logical, but do you not see the Logic here? Do you not see how such a small group is having such a powerful impact on the world today?

  The point I have made here is this that numbers never made a difference... numbers are only illusions... The Emperors at the times of our Guru’s made the same assumption about Sikhi.. The Hindus during the 1984 riots made the same assumption about Sikhi.. time after time they were all proven wrong… history as evidence.. the Khalsa lost many men… many times over it took massive losses… but despite the odds.. it raised itself over and over again from the battlefield… 

  the Will in 1 man can inspire a NATION to change its thought. whether it is Hitler or Ghandi or MLK JR... it only takes 1 man to change the minds of
  millions...    

  so dont tell me the Sikh Identity is going to die.. Dont tell me Guru Nanak's Philosophy is going to be in the books of history.. 

  Dont pull stuff out of the air.. Niether I nor you can predict what is going to happen in the future...

  But I do know one thing.. the Children of those Sikhs who have made a effort to discover their Sikhi on their on... will be far 
    more powerful then the Sikhs that striked fear in the hearts of muslim emperors who ruled over india. The New Generation of Sikhs will bring a new rise to the Khalsa.

  There comes a point in life when man searches for the truth because he/she is sick of illusions of the corporate world.. sick of the lies.. tired of being false…  
  When the new generation of Sikhs understands the purpose of the Identity without being forced to keep it.. they will happily accept it… and at that time.. the rules of fashion will change.  

   Don’t be so consumed with trends, statistics, and logic… have a open mind.. life is full of surprises and is completely unpredictable…
  -=On the side note=-… they say at Harvard every year they have 2 groups that invest on stocks. One group performs studies and research on which stocks to purchase… the other throws darts and selects the stocks that the dart lands on..

  The result is… sometimes Logic and Research wins.. and sometimes the dart wins.. 

  I don’t know about you.. but to me it feels as if research and statistics can not be trusted 100%..  therefore I will not place all my hopes on the Dr.. on Logic.. on research… 
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> Your drawing a comparison to something that is physical and "in this world" over something that no longer exists.


  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  What is really here? and what is not? obviously you have not seen a magic trick being played. What is reality? Reality itself has NOT been defined till this date by science.

  a man who see's a child stealing a apple to eat--- for him reality is the child is a thief
  a mother who see's a child stealing a apple to eat-- for her a child is trying to feed his stomach.


  Your Reality is different from mines.. for you what does not exists.. I see everyday..
  The Guru - Shiri Guru Granth Sahib... The GurSikhs, the Gurbani.. the kirtan.. the devotion.. the love... 
  I see it.. you dont.. why? because I believe.. you dont.(not yet)   


  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> As per what I've said earlier, or maybe it was in a different thread -- I feel more liberated that I've accepted the fact that I
> am an atheist. My lifestyle is far lighter now, and I can see the lies that the religious institutions feed the people.


  ----------------------------------------------------------------

  As I mentioned before.. in this age of Kalyug there are lies everywhere..  whether it is in a religious institute or in the
  gathering of Atheists...  That is why your Guru had everything put down in the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib.... 

  Did you even make a attempt to read the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?
  ----------------------------------------


> I never said your getting "knocked out" in the coming years. It's a sinking ship, no matter how much you try to deny the facts, the Khalsa is a sinking ship. They will cease to exist or be so disconnected from society. "Guru Nanak's Philosophy" on the other hand, will stay, like all the historical books before it. The Khalsa, even the morals will stay and adapt. The 5 K's and specifically the identity, will not.


  ------------------------------------------------------------
  If the morals stay and adapt.. wont that lead to have the roop? 
  If you invest in something and it provides you with profits.. wont you invest more?
------------------------------------------------------------
  as far “evidence and proof”, I can give you many from 1980 all the way to 2007.. over and over again...   

  I know you have gotten your facts from all sorts of sources, that I myself can also provide counter parts for.. we can have a never ending battle… J

  You have gotten your understanding of this world from books written by men who have tried to understand how things work..

  but....have you read the books from men who have admired the man who created the things which are all around you?

  Have your read your Japji Sahib?
  Have you read your Sukhmani Sahib?
  Have you read your Shiri Guru Granth Sahib?
  have you made a effort to go over them before declaring yourself a Atheist?
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  Personally bro, I have been at the same state of mind as you are.. probably far worse then you can imagine.. so much lies.. so much misguidance.. and soo many ignorant fanatics ….
  It really throws a normal person in depression…..
  Don’t look for answers from religious scholars, every single one of them has a different answer … lol ..  make a effort to understand the logic and love of Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji, by reading it and applying it to your daily life.. 

  Despite what may be visible to the Eye… Sikhi, the Identity is not falling.. it’s routes are only getting stronger, firmer. 

  It is logic, a person with a better understanding makes a firmer decision. Once a child understands his Sikhi, he will make a firmer decision.. a choice that will be so firm that the coming “corporate world” will not be able to change.. but will have to accept the fact and make its rules around it…..

  Don’t be disillusioned by numbers… it only takes one man with a firm will to change a entire nation.

  ----------------------------------------------------


> Welcome to 2007. =)


  ---------------------------------------------------
  2007 is over.. Prepare yourself for 2008 ... its about time you make a sincere effort to read Your Guru's Bani before you come up with a conclusion about who you really are.


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## lalihayer (Dec 18, 2007)

S|kH said:


> I never said your getting "knocked out" in the coming years. It's a sinking ship, no matter how much you try to deny the facts, the Khalsa is a sinking ship. They will cease to exist or be so disconnected from society. "Guru Nanak's Philosophy" on the other hand, will stay, like all the historical books before it. The Khalsa, even the morals will stay and adapt. The 5 K's and specifically the identity, will not.
> 
> Welcome to 2007. =)


 
Sikhs population was never over 15% of united Punjab, not even during Khalsa raj. Out of population, Khalsa always has been very small in numbers. During Sikh kingdom, most of sikh sardars including Ranjit Singh were not practicising khalsa ( they were fond of alcohol and woman ). So yes, numbers are important, but not that much. Compare jews and  muslims, and their contrubution to all walks of life (i.e. science, politics, arts). Jews are still most influential group on earth.
This 'Sinking Ship' has been heard for khalsa many times over the course of history.
1. Right after capture of Baba Banda Bahadur, sikhs almost disappeared in Punjab.
2. When Sikhs lost to British, panic struck sikh masses. Dalip Singh converted and shipped to England.
3. During early 20th century, christian missionaries pounded on Punjab. There were conversion to christianity from all walks of life. (There was big incident of 4 yound sikh boys from influental families in Amritsar converted to christianity). There was also a report that Maharaja of Kapurthala called a priest to know about christianity and how to embrace it.

But in the end khalsa came out strong and tested. Look at sikhs in India now. Even after a ****** struggle for Khalistan and being less than 2% of population, all the important posts are held by sikhs (prime minister, army chief, finance sec.). 
Sikhs in west get used to luxurious life style of west. It is very hard to keep kesh, carry sword, tie turban. It looks outdated to some people.They want to go to pub, date girls, cut hair, look good.  "Sinking ship" is nothing but wish in the back of the mind of these kind of western sikhs. 
But khalsa is not going anywhere.


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## BhagatSingh (Jan 4, 2010)

Interesting thread! :yes:
You gotta love Zakir Naik's fans (Kay)... :}{}{}: and the very unskeptic minds here (Skeptik).


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## max314 (Jan 5, 2010)

As long as one is in a hurry to identify themselves by a label of limitation, they are trapped.  Like a hamster running inside a wheel, they believe they are making progress when in fact they are making none.

It is only when one realises that they are not a discrete, discernible 'this' or 'that' - but are instead a part of a great oneness that knows no boundaries, that knows no distinctions - that they can be truly free.

Remember: Only by asking the right questions can one find the right answers.


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## Lee (Jan 5, 2010)

Wow what a good thread, I have much to say on it but let me start here.

Max ji,

I am afraid my freind that you are slightly on the wrong track, yes indeed Ik ongar and all of that, however labels are what we use to enable understanding.

One can certianly apply many labels to oneself without fear of being trapped.  Think of it in this way.  Every single word you typed is a label which we all use in order to understand, I se nowt wrong in using words to describe who or what we are do you?


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## Lee (Jan 5, 2010)

Jaysangh ji,

I agree with you my freind.  Nobody HAS to except the faith nor any of the belifes of their parents.  If I did for example I would be a bigoted, atheist.

If you do not belive in God, the ten human Guru's nor Guru Granth Sahib, if you do not proscribe to the Sikh way of life then by all means you should not call yourself a Sikh.

I am fairly discouraged to see the amount of posts that (as you say) are nowt more than personal attack, although I do thank the modeaters for allowing them (freedom of speach and all that).

Ask as many questions as you like, there really is no such thing as asking too many.


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## max314 (Jan 5, 2010)

Lee said:


> Wow what a good thread, I have much to say on it but let me start here.
> 
> Max ji,
> 
> ...



Hi there, *Lee* ji - thank you for commenting 

There is nothing wrong with using labels as a mode of communication and as a method of description.  Words - while limited - are how we convey thoughts and ideas to one another.

But the OP is asking, "Why am I a Sikh?"  And his first line reads, "Why am I a sikh? Why should I be?  What proof is there that I should believe? Do I just need to have faith?"

To me, this sounds like someone who is trying to understand their relationship with spirituality, and who has intertwined 'being spiritual' with 'belonging to a religion' and labelling oneself accordingly.

My post was merely aimed at suggesting to the OP that they did not have to affiliate themselves with a particular religion (i.e. did not have to label themselves) in order to find spiritual answers.  Consequently, I also suggested that the OP's personal paradigm perhaps required some shifting so that they would start asking the right questions regarding their spiritual path, which would include not getting bogged down in calling oneself a 'Something-ist' or a 'Somethingelse-ist'.

Indeed, it was Guru Nanak who said, "Na koi Hindu, na koi Musalmaan."  I strongly suspect he meant the same thing I do.

All the best, sir


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## findingmyway (Mar 3, 2013)

Why am I  a Sikh?

A few years ago I started reading the SGGS myself and trying to understand the Guru's message. I completely fell in love with Sikh philosophy and that is why I am a Sikh :kaurkhalsaflagred:


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