# Kill The History, Religion Will Die On Its Own



## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 10, 2006)

Khalsa ji,

  Yours truly believes,

*"Slowly kill the history and pride, the religion will die on its own"*


  ...a few years ago Guru Tegh Bahadur ji was mentioned like a plunderer in one of the history book of NCERT and now its turn of Guru Gobind Singh ji in NCERT grade XII book. The news below further proves the fact how watchful we have to be. Thanks to the people who noted this blunder and raised their voices.


  Read yourself and evaluate yourself.......
*
*
*NCERT to replace para on Sikh Guru  
         Tribune News Service


*​ New Delhi, November 10, 2006
Following the objections raised by Sikh organisations against “objectionable” references to their Guru, the National Council of Educational Research and Training (NCERT) has decided to replace a paragraph on Guru Gobind Singh in its history textbook for class XII. 
 
The NCERT decided to replace the paragraph in the book, Modern India, written by Prof Bipan Chandra, according to a circular issued by the Central Board of Secondary Education (CBSE).
 The paragraph in the book says, “Bahadur Shah had tried to conciliate the rebellious Sikhs by making peace with Guru Gobind Singh and giving him a high mansab.

But when, after the death of the Guru, the Sikhs once again raised the banner of revolt in Punjab under the leadership of Banda Bahadur, the emperor decided to take strong measures and himself led a campaign against the rebels.”

It will be replaced by a new paragraph now, which will read: “In the early eighteenth century the Sikhs once again raised the banner of revolt in Punjab. They did so first under the leadership of Guru Gobind Singh and after his death under Banda Bahadur. The emperor, Bahadur Shah, decided to take strong measures and himself led a campaign against the rebels.”

Link to the news: Tribune

*"Pagadi sambhal Sikha, Pagadi sambhal oye"

*Sat Shri Akaal,
-Akashdeep Singh


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## max314 (Nov 10, 2006)

Any kind of falisification of historical facts is wrong.

But I don't think that this marks anything as dramatic as "the end of the Sikkh religion".  Not at all.  Like we'd ever let that happen...


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 10, 2006)

max314 said:


> But I don't think that this marks anything as dramatic as "the end of the Sikkh religion".  Not at all.  Like we'd ever let that happen...



Dear Max,

Your presence on this forum proves that your mind is exploring the knowledge of Sikh panth, congratulations for choosing this path.

I agree with you that this does not mark anything as dramatic as "the end of the Sikh religion" . But my friend, the days of direct attacks are gone. These are the days of hidden plots which cannot be unearthed without deep analysis. 

I take such acts [like destroying history] as injecting a radio active material with very short "half-life" period into a human. Take the example of a version of radioactive element thallium which has half life period of about 6 months. If this thallium is injected into a human body, it will kill all the disease fighting elements inside the human body and thallium will be gone from body in 6 months. Now the person will die slowly showing some symptoms similar to aids. But nobody can prove that thallium was ever injected as it has now decayed from the body leaving no traces behind. The person will seem to slowly die on his own.

Similar are the present ongoing acts of distroying the history of Sikh religion and injecting useless superstitions into Sikh religion. These useless superstitions [read professor Inder Singh Ghagga's work a www.sikhmarg.com] introduced into our religion will act like thallium as we will loose all the figting spirit that we have and become like idol-worshipping, miracle believing coward people who keep worshipping the idols expecting that some day God will change their life, rather than working to change their life with their own efforts and hard work.

Waheguru sanu sareyaan nu Gurbani da chanan bakshey. 

Sat Shri Akaal,
-Akashdeep


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## dalsingh (Nov 10, 2006)

The only solution is serious Sikh scholars getting a good grasp of Sikh history and presenting it in a way that can annilate all of the other "historians" writings i.e. McLeod and his gang and the Hinduvta brigade producing crap like that above.

Max

"But I don't think that this marks anything as dramatic as "the end of the Sikkh religion". Not at all. Like we'd ever let that happen..."


Love the spirit! lol


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 11, 2006)

Gurfateh

Left try to pain Gurmat as per thier left idea when congress rules and right or Hindutva guys do simlar things during BJP rule.


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## munda_just_like_12_bore (Nov 11, 2006)

i think u need not to worry about NCERT books."us sahib dee jo marjee, oh he hunda hai." aapan kaun hundey hain usdee nature which interfear karan waley"


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## max314 (Nov 11, 2006)

Akashdeep Singh said:


> Dear Max,
> 
> Your presence on this forum proves that your mind is exploring the knowledge of Sikh panth, congratulations for choosing this path.
> 
> ...



Things change and decay with time.

Is Sikkhi as we perceive it today the same as what it was perceived as over half a century ago?  I doubt it.

But this isn't something that is observeable exclusively in the Sikkh faith.  It is seen in all faiths.

I think one must realise that, whatever way the world goes, it is God's Will.  _Gurbani_ teaches us that God's Will is Supreme, and nothing can defy it (I suppose that settles the argument on Free Will v. Determinism on the Philosophy board, then  ).

It will be as it will be.

Nevertheless, I don't think there is any big conspiracy behind destroying Sikkhi, either quickly or gradually.  And even if it *was* destroyed, the name "Sikkhi" means nothing.  It is the concept behind it that will remain True.  It's not like someone's religion changes the Truth of the Universe, is it?

And, anyway, I still stand by the idea that Sikkhi is not a 'religion', anyway.  I don't know why everyone thinks that calling Sikkhi a 'religion' is the highest honour one can bestow upon it.  I personally think it's degrading to the true nature of Guru Nanak's philosophy.  A man who taught against institutionalised belief systems due to their tendancy to cause division and subsequent war between communities having his teachings dubbed "a religion" is almost too ludicrous for words.


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 11, 2006)

max314 said:


> Things change and decay with time.
> 
> Is Sikkhi as we perceive it today the same as what it was perceived as over half a century ago?  I doubt it.
> 
> ...



Max, I like to read the logic that you provide. Specially liked the answers that you have posted to "10 Questions from Muslims to Sikhs" post. Your reasoning is straightword and logical and I agree to most of it on that post, though I felt at some places some replies could have included examples from Gurbani. Nevertheless, your hard work, reasoning and dedication is commendable. 


max314 said:


> I think one must realise that, whatever way the world goes, it is God's Will.  _Gurbani_ teaches us that God's Will is Supreme, and nothing can defy it



Pardon me, but this phrase is confusing for me. I have pondered over this question from some years now and I don't seem to agree that God has made us and left us as passive creatures having no say in the overall go of the World. If that be the case, then what would have been the meaning of the line "Aape Beejay Aape Khahe" (What you sow is what you reap)? I am kind of tilting towards the belief that may be we as humans may not have a great say in how the universe goes, but I think we do have some say in how and where the society goes. I think god has created us and has also created a free will (bound by some limits though). If there was no such system then what would be the need of people going and getting jobs and working hard to earn the bread, when it was already fixed by God that bread will be available. One would simply sit at ones home and say, "what is gods will, will happen eventually. I don't have to do anything. I can sit at home and if its Gods will I'll get food anyway". Similarly, if we lie on the track of train and think nothing will happen, only what gods will is going to happen, I don't think this will work - we otta cut into pieces. Gods has no doubt created the system with some things which are beyond the control of human beings and they cannot change them, but there are somethings that God has left to the intelligence of the Human Beings. Therefore, I think that truth does not win on its own, it needs people to make it win. 



> Nevertheless, I don't think there is any big conspiracy behind destroying Sikkhi, either quickly or gradually.  And even if it *was* destroyed, the name "Sikkhi" means nothing.  It is the concept behind it that will remain True


You may be right. But I am trying to find answers to the questions:-
Who added [names of persons are known, but what is their background] those derogatory lines related to Guru Tegh Bahadur ji to the NCERT history books? NCERT is the premier board of education in India and majority of the good schools follow this curriculum. Why were these added to the NCERT books?
Why is high secrecy involved in writing NCERT history books?
Why is the history related to specifically Guru Tegh Bahadur ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji being adulterated?
Is it because Guru Tegh Bahadur ji are believed to be the saviour of Kashmiri Pandits and this fact is not getting digested in some people's stomach and they are trying to change this fact by distorting the history and telling that Guru Tegh Bahadur ji did not achieve shahadat for saving Kashmiri pandits but they were killed because they were plundering in the areas around New Delhi?
Is it because Guru Gobind Singh ji gave us separate identity and this is not liked by some people? Why?

Why their are similar efforts to paint Banda Singh Bahadur as a "Banda Bairagi" showing him as a pandit. (no doubt his appearance was different before he met Guru Gobind Singh ji
What are the motives behind the images from the article :advocate:
Panthic Weekly: Illustrated: Hinduization of Sikh Faith & History

May be you can help me find answers to these questions. 

And keep up the good work! :roll:

Sat Shri Akaal,
-Akashdeep.


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## max314 (Nov 12, 2006)

Akashdeep Singh said:


> Max, I like to read the logic that you provide. Specially liked the answers that you have posted to "10 Questions from Muslims to Sikhs" post. Your reasoning is straightword and logical and I agree to most of it on that post, though I felt at some places some replies could have included examples from Gurbani. Nevertheless, your hard work, reasoning and dedication is commendable.



Thanks.  I would have attempted to provide citations from scripture, but that post in the "10 Questions..." thread was a last minute thing (I was browsing about two minutes before going to bed, and was compelled to enough by the post to delay my sleep).  That's also why I provided an open-ended clause in which the thead-starter could raise specific points that he felt required further clarification on my part.



> Pardon me, but this phrase is confusing for me. I have pondered over this question from some years now and I don't seem to agree that God has made us and left us as passive creatures having no say in the overall go of the World. If that be the case, then what would have been the meaning of the line "Aape Beejay Aape Khahe" (What you sow is what you reap)? I am kind of tilting towards the belief that may be we as humans may not have a great say in how the universe goes, but I think we do have some say in how and where the society goes. I think god has created us and has also created a free will (bound by some limits though). If there was no such system then what would be the need of people going and getting jobs and working hard to earn the bread, when it was already fixed by God that bread will be available. One would simply sit at ones home and say, "what is gods will, will happen eventually. I don't have to do anything. I can sit at home and if its Gods will I'll get food anyway". Similarly, if we lie on the track of train and think nothing will happen, only what gods will is going to happen, I don't think this will work - we otta cut into pieces. Gods has no doubt created the system with some things which are beyond the control of human beings and they cannot change them, but there are somethings that God has left to the intelligence of the Human Beings. Therefore, I think that truth does not win on its own, it needs people to make it win.



Mm...yes, it's a fascinating question, isn't it?

I think that most people who have had the patience to stop and think about the direction of their lives have wondered, at some point or other, just how much control - if any - they have over their respective destinies.  We wonder about how much of what we do is truly independent, and how much of it is little more than a rift in a chain of cosmic causality that is on a scale far beyond our limited understanding and our five senses.

I, too, have been caught in this nexus between how much of our actions are free of will, and how much is predetermined by a force that is either conscious or otherwise.

I have come to the conlcusion (though it is by no means definitive, of course) that, in actuality, all _is_ God's Will.  Quite simply, the very thoughts we are all having of "we must do something...we can't just lie on the proberbial train track" are actually God-given.

The scenario you present of all people being eternally passive is not something that could ever come to fruition, because peoples' egos - peoples' *God-given egos* - physically _prevent passivism! 

It's like the perfectly-connected logic cycle; the perfect cosmic 'design' for sentient beings.  Our egos, like everything else in this universe, exist for a reason.

That's why I believe what gurbani says about the Five Thieves (with the central 'Thief' of ego), that they are not to be 'destroyed' but merely 'conquered'.  Again, I refer to the idea of fire being a good servant but a bad master.  The Five Thieves are essentially that very same inner fire that need to be controlled.

In other words, we should all have forward momentum centered around humility, family, tolerance and charity.  Just like it says in gurbani.

And that type of belief system is nothing but constructive for a society.

[P.S. - As is natural to most human beings, we think of God as being a distinctly separate entity; a humanised entity.  Whether we admit it or not, our first image of Godis an entirely egocentric one: a man on a throne, most probably sporting a white beard.  A literal 'King'.  But gurbani opens with the mool mantra, which essentially dissolves that entire image.  It says that the entire universe is ONE.  Every particle is linked to every other particle.  There are no different people, no different planets, no different places.  These are just the perceptions of our Five Senses.  There is only ONE in the entire universe, and it is that universe.  Once one begins thinking like this instead of in the creationist attitude (i.e. thinking of God as the chess inventor and player who sits in a room constructing pieces and then putting them on his custom-made board, and other such humanised images), the idea of God's Will suddenly takes on a whole new dimension and, suddenly, the idea of submitting to it makes just that much more sense.  To me, at least.  ]




			You may be right. But I am trying to find answers to the questions:-
Who added [names of persons are known, but what is their background] those derogatory lines related to Guru Tegh Bahadur ji to the NCERT history books? NCERT is the premier board of education in India and majority of the good schools follow this curriculum. Why were these added to the NCERT books?
Why is high secrecy involved in writing NCERT history books?
Why is the history related to specifically Guru Tegh Bahadur ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji being adulterated?
Is it because Guru Tegh Bahadur ji are believed to be the saviour of Kashmiri Pandits and this fact is not getting digested in some people's stomach and they are trying to change this fact by distorting the history and telling that Guru Tegh Bahadur ji did not achieve shahadat for saving Kashmiri pandits but they were killed because they were plundering in the areas around New Delhi?
Is it because Guru Gobind Singh ji gave us separate identity and this is not liked by some people? Why?

Why their are similar efforts to paint Banda Singh Bahadur as a "Banda Bairagi" showing him as a pandit. (no doubt his appearance was different before he met Guru Gobind Singh ji
What are the motives behind the images from the article :advocate:
Panthic Weekly: Illustrated: Hinduization of Sikh Faith & History

May be you can help me find answers to these questions.
		
Click to expand...


If NCERT is headed by a fascist Hindu head, then it would make perfect sense that they would want to downplay and pollute the immense contributions of the Sikkh community to the Indian state, whilst creating a new history in which the Hindu population is given credit where little or none is due.

It's not unheard of.  Changing the history books is not anything new and, in every case in which it happens, I believe that sufficienct action should be taken (i.e. raising awareness, making legal appeals, holding protests, reporting it to the correct authorities).

You obviously seem to know more about this organisation than myself, and my personal opinion is that something proactive needs to be done.

Beyond even the Sikkh community, the *men and women* who sacrificed their lives for the betterment of humanity ought to be remembered, and not slandered by people with ignoble socio-pooitical and religious agendas.

What is the relationship of NCERT to the Indian government (e.g. is it a private or state-funded organisation?), and what do you feel the Indian government has done / can do to prevent this falsification of human history?




			And keep up the good work! :roll:

Sat Shri Akaal,
-Akashdeep.
		
Click to expand...


You seem to be working substantially harder than me, so right back at ya, bro _


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 12, 2006)

max314 said:


> If NCERT is headed by a fascist Hindu head, then it would make perfect sense that they would want to downplay and pollute the immense contributions of the Sikkh community to the Indian state, whilst creating a new history in which the Hindu population is given credit where little or none is due.


The historian who wrote polluting lines about *Guru Tegh Bahadur ji* in grade *XI* history book was named *Satish Chandra *and recently the one who wrote insulting lines about *Guru Gobind Singh ji *in class *XII *book is named *Bipan Chandra *....yeah again "Chandra" . These people [Hindu Facists] are so deeply embedded into the Indian government that its difficult to find all of  them. These people are holding very high posts in the Government. 

Not just that, from some time now, these people have been trying to sow seeds into the brains of people that India had to suffer almost 100 years of more slavery because sikhs betrayed in the "Uprising of 1857". To do this they first wrongly call "Uprising of 1857" as "The first war of independence" and then mention that the Sikhs in the British army crushed the revolt and hence betrayed India (totally nonsense). This propaganda led *Dr. Ganda Singh ji *to resign from the presidentship of one of the conference where such historians were slandering Sikhs and *Dr. Ganda Singh* later gave a speech on the same stage and raised questions which such historians could not satisfactorily answer. I am translating from Punjabi to English one article written by *Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga* where he has quoted Dr. Ganda Singh ji speech which he gave to the people who were painting "1857 revolt" as first war of independence and calling sikhs traitors, will post as soon as I am done ( my be as a new thread)....you will be surprised that the seeds that such historians sowed in the minds of Indian population long time ago has grown into full fledged tree now and almost 100% of the Indians will tell you that "Revolt of 1857" was the first war of independence if you ask this question to them. Sadly, I myself grew up reading the same and kept thinking 'Revolt of 1857" was the first war of independence. 



max314 said:


> What is the relationship of NCERT to the Indian government (e.g. is it a private or state-funded organisation?), and what do you feel the Indian government has done / can do to prevent this falsification of human history?


*NCERT = National Council of Educational Research and Training. 
*Is the Central Government (Federal Government) funded organisations. The whole or majority of funding is done by the central government and partial sum comes from sale of text books that they write. The sum from the sale of textbooks is less as NCERT are textbooks are specially sold low cost so that everybody can buy them.  Sister organisation is *CBSE (Central Board of Secondary Education)*, which is again funded by government and both have the common system, curriculum and books. Indian government should first of all make the system of writing and editing the History books transparent. Any editing related to the history of any community or organisations must first be brought to the notice of that community or organisations. So far the government has not done enough to do that. There are people like the Chandra's mentioned above who keep doing their bad work and then have no shame. The reason- these people are not simple guys who are just are writing a few lines here and there and we can simply stop them. These guys ( Like the Chandra's) are trainined historians and can very easily silence the queries on their work by a comman man. They can only humbled by people of the knowledge of Dr. Ganda Singh, Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga etc. but alas, some of these people have died long ago and nobody seems to be listening to Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga at the present. 

I think the community has to take the responsibility in its own hand. The community has to raise their conscious and knowledge to the level where they can detect and object to such slanderous works of evil historians. 

If we go deeper we will easily find that people like Satish Chandra and Bipan Chandra are playing the game of picking hand selected references to prove their point and leave aside other more reliable sources. For, example if they are planing to slander Sikh history they will pick some persian account written by people who never liked the Sikhs because Sikhs have been a formidable force against their invasions and occuputation of India. These historians simply sideline the great work of people like Dr. Ganda Singh, Kahn Singh Nabha et all. 

To summarize, I believe these historians (like Chandra's) are professionals and they seem to be determined to pollute the history of Sikhs and their inspiration is coming from Hindu fascism. Such professionals in the field can only be stopped from their bad motives if each Sikh raises his/her conscious and takes the responsibility of their history. Indian goverment is not dependable as it is filled up to the brim with such Chandra's.

Sat Shri Akaal,
-Akashdeep


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## Akashdeep Singh (Nov 15, 2006)

vijaydeep Singh said:


> Gurfateh
> 
> Left try to pain Gurmat as per thier left idea when congress rules and right or Hindutva guys do simlar things during BJP rule.



Dear Vijaydeep,

I did not understand your comment fully. Can you please elaborate?

-Akashdeep


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## sonykaur (Dec 14, 2006)

Eye-opener


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 16, 2006)

History is the ROOTS..on which the "tree" feeds..kill the root and the tree dies...Punjabi Saying..Jarrahn vich tel denna..apply OIL to the roots ( to kill the tree) is applicable to such acts as highlighted in the original post.
1. That is why the Enemies of Sikhism - beginnign with Sri Chand son of Guru nanak Ji began a RIVAL STREAM of thought/philosophy to GURMATT of Guru nanak Ji...and his successors wrote "False gurbani" under the name of "Nanak" to waylay Sikhs and spread Kachee Bani to fool Sikhs..Guru Amardss Ji ahd to warn about this in Anand sahib..Satgur Bina hor kachee bani..kehndeh kache sundeh kache kachee aakh sunani..
2. The second act of these enemies was to ADULTERATE and spread FALSE history baout Sikhs and Gurus...the Bhai bala Janamsakhi is a case in point. Later on books like Gurbilas Patshi chhevin, dasvin, bachittra natak granth etc etc were written to divert Sikhs from Genuine Gurmatt and History.
3. Even Sikh writers were fooled..Rattn Singh Bhangu took "Bhang"..so he writes that Guru nanak ji also took BHANG.... Kavi Santokh Singh of Sooraj parksah was  a devi bhagat ..so he makes Guru gobind Singh ji a Devi-Bhagat
4. This attack on our history now continues with the Daylight ROBBERY of ALL our "history" stored in the Sikh reference Library in 1984..and all this is still MISSING - in the World's LARGEST DEMOCRACY ??..
5. Further attacks come in barefaced misconstruction, outright insults to our Gurus and  examples like...Banda singh bahadur being converted to banda Bairagi ( no such person ever existed)

Only those Nations who Love and Preserve their HISTORY survive...look to the JEWs for  a lesson..the KEY is EDUCATION ..
Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Akashdeep Singh (Dec 17, 2006)

Giani Jarnail Singh ji, 

Thanks for sharing nice thoughts.

Yours truly also believes that history also teaches lessons on the problems that can occur and how to deal with them. Here is one such example of a similar attack on a faith in India from the book written by Dr. K. Jamanadas: -

*DECLINE AND FALL OF BUDDHISM*
(A tragedy in Ancient India)

By Dr. K. Jamanadas

*Summary of reasons*:-

"*Depicting Buddha as Hindu* by RSS, specially to the international community, and pretending to respect Him, is a stategy to hoodwink the mases, as was done about Ambedkar. The process started long time back by declaring Buddha as an avatara of god in some times around eighth century and finalised till 12th century. Manohar Joshi, the then Chief Minister of Maharashtra, writing in the Introduction of Dr. Ambedkar's W&S vol. 16, (1998) does mention Buddha as tenth incarnation of God, knowingly that the Buddhists all over the world do not believe in God, let alone its incarnations. At the same time, an average Brahmin takes a great pride that Buddhism was driven away from this land by Adi- Sankara. They ignore that a non-existent religion can not die.
*Declaring the Buddha as ninth avatara of Vishnu*, by the Brahmanic Puranas, was meant to cause confusion in the minds of people with the result that Buddhism came to be treated as a "heretical" and "aesthetic" branch of Brahmanism. The modern scholars like Kane, Radhakrishnan, Swami Vivekanand and Tilak, have pushed this confusion further back to the time of origin of Buddhism, by *saying that Upanishadas are the origin of Buddhist thought*, thus *claiming both that Buddhism was just a refined "Hinduism"*, and also claiming with pride that Buddhism was driven away by the Brahmanas and it has died down

As a non-existent tradition or way of life can not die, and as the decline of Buddhism in India is a historical fact, the theory of its origin as a "reformed" Brahmanism is false. If Buddhism was a sect of "Hinduism", then one may well ask the proud supporters of Shankaracharya, what was that religion which was "driven out by Adi Sankara", as they claim? Was it also Hinduism? This proves that Buddhism is not a sect of Hinduism, which was nonexistant till Muslim conquest."

Source:-
DECLINE AND FALL OF BUDDHISM
A tragedy in Ancient India -By Dr. K. Jamanadas Published by BLUEMOON BOOKS 201, Essel Mansion, 2286 87, Arya Samaj Road, Karol Baug, New Delhi 110 005


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## kds1980 (Dec 17, 2006)

gyani ji why to blame others when our instituitions like taksal and akj distort history and even gurbani for their own agenda
--------------------------------------------------------------
| Damdami Taksal |
“The following are all major sins:
a) Killing a Brahmgyani,
b) Killing a black cow
c) Killing or selling your daughter, 
d) Eating from a person who has no moral discipline. Anyone who commits any of these has committed thousands of sins and this egotistical individual will be reprimanded thousands of times."
(SGGSJ Ang 1413)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
so for taksal black cows are special and all sikhs should protect them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Damdami Taksal |
"If blood has stained your clothing you say your clothes have become impure. How can the thought of those who eat meat, drink blood and suck bones become pure?"
(SGGSJ Ang 140)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
so for fooling sikhs on vegetarianism they have even started adding words in gurbani.a year ago i raised this question on sikhsangat and a taksali singh
said that this is a genuine mistake but even after 1 year there is no attemp
to correct so is it a really genuine mistake?


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## ISDhillon (Dec 17, 2006)

I dont think the religion dies when we kill the history i think when we no longer have anything to contribute to society then a religion fades away or becomes radical, the path to salvation is personal but sikhism also teaches us to actively work in society for positive growth and when we no longer do that we just become inactive, I think the isc is a good social instrument i hope it will live upto its high objectives.


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## Akashdeep Singh (Dec 18, 2006)

kds1980 said:


> gyani ji why to blame others when our instituitions like taksal and akj distort history and even gurbani for their own agenda
> --------------------------------------------------------------



Khalsa ji, 


While it is right that Taksal has done blunders in their writings, it is also right that there are attacks from the outside as well. 

Giani Jarnail Singh ji have mentioned some very nice points, just like the ones you have mentioned for Taksal. I also believe that education is the key. Since the education of history seems much less lucrative as compared to Engineering, Medicine, Business etc. it is being pursued by only those who have love and pride for their history and continue to educate themselves and others on the true history. You are one of those ( as you brought out the above points from Taksal writings) and so is Giani ji. Keep up the good work!, inside Sikh circles or outside, a blunder done against philosophy of Guru Nanak Dev ji must be opposed and stopped from propagating.

PS:Some points from the wrong writings of Taksal have already been pointed in another post at http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/14409-sikh-missionary-ghagha-excommunicated-3.html#post47731

Sat Shri Akaal,
-Akashdeep


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## Akashdeep Singh (Dec 18, 2006)

ISDhillon said:


> I dont think the religion dies when we kill the history i think when we no longer have anything to contribute to society then a religion fades away or becomes radical, the path to salvation is personal but sikhism also teaches us to actively work in society for positive growth and when we no longer do that we just become inactive, I think the isc is a good social instrument i hope it will live upto its high objectives.



Khalsa ji,


I agree on the point that social work is very important in Sikhism and there is not an iota of doubt about that. 

On the other hand, I strongly disagree with your point on the importance of Sikh history. Generally speaking, history and religion seem to be 2 different entities each having its own definition. The Christian history and Christian religion might seem 2 different things. Similary Islamic history and religion will seem to be 2 different things but not so in the case of Sikhism.

The case of Sikhism is different from other religions. We had 10 gurus who faced different  challenges in different times. The response of first 5 of our gurus are preserved in Guru Granth Sahib. The Gurus after them responded with action, as an example think about martyrdom of Guru Arjun dev ji, miri-piri of Guru Hargobind Singh ji, maryterdom of Guru Teg Bahadur, Guru Gobind Singh and Sahibjade's etc. These cannot be separated from Sikh religion and cannot be explained without the help of history. So if the history is distorted and killed over time, the related philosophy also suffers in the case of Sikhism. Our Guru's history and Sikh martyrs are an important part of Sikh theology. We remember the martyrs twice both in the morning and in the evening prayers. 

Knowledge of history and the socio-economic structure of older times also becomes more important as it is hardly possible to decipher Guru Granth Sahib ji without knowing the related history. Take the example of bani by Guru Nanak Dev ji, he saw the invasion of Babur so he wrote his views about it and encouraged people of India to get rid of Baburs rule. Guru Nanak Dev ji has also written about the corruption in the administration in those time and also about the wrongdoings of the Qauzi's. We can hardly understand those hymns from Guru Nanank Dev ji without the knowledge of history. 

Therefore, the Sikh history is inseparable from Sikh religion and is as important as the Sikh theology itself. If the Sikh history is distorted and killed, the Sikh religion will eventually suffer. 

Chardi Kala,
-Akashdeep


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## ISDhillon (Dec 19, 2006)

Hello Akshadeep Ji,

I think youre confusing tradition and history as a form of research rather than sikhism itself, sikhism is unique in that we dont have to learn from our history because if we did then that would mean our guru is not hear today, we know this is not the case did the flesh gurus turn to history to look for answers?, they did not they adapted and changed according to the reality of the times i believe the istitution of guru-granth guru-panth can function from our enlightrended bibek status as the guru would have liked, that is why i said the international sikh confederation is a good idea because it presents this function in todays reality.

indy


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## Akashdeep Singh (Dec 19, 2006)

ISDhillon said:


> Hello Akshadeep Ji,
> 
> I think youre confusing tradition and history as a form of research rather than sikhism itself, sikhism is unique in that we dont have to learn from our history because if we did then that would mean our guru is not hear today, we know this is not the case did the flesh gurus turn to history to look for answers?, they did not they adapted and changed according to the reality of the times i believe the istitution of guru-granth guru-panth can function from our enlightrended bibek status as the guru would have liked, that is why i said the international sikh confederation is a good idea because it presents this function in todays reality.
> 
> indy



Sat Shri Akaal I S Dhillon ji,

We seem to be talking on different issues. 

The topic of this thread was on the wrong writings regarding Sikh history in the NCERT/CBSE history text books. My point was that knowing and preserving the truth related to Sikh history is important. 

If it is not preserved the Sikh religion will suffer. Why I say that? - because I think to interpret Sikh philosophy and its roots its very important to know the correct history. One such example I gave was that to understand Gurbani in right context we have to know the correct history of the time the hymns in Gurbani were written. I have already given the example in my previous reply why Sikh history is important and inseparable from Sikh religion. 

I have seen many examples from my debates with people who are interpretting Gurbani in wrong way just because they do not know in what conditions those hymns were written and in what context. 

Feel free to re-question if I am still not clear in what I am saying or if you still do not agree. 

Chardi Kala,
-Akashdeep


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## vijaydeep Singh (Dec 20, 2006)

Gurfateh


Akashdeep Singh said:


> Dear Vijaydeep,
> 
> I did not understand your comment fully. Can you please elaborate?
> 
> -Akashdeep


Well when Congress rules.they change text books content regarding Gurmat as if thier guys like Jahor Siddque or Irfan Habib try to paint Gurmat as Gurmat is a sort of socio economic reaction to oppresvie Mughal fedual system.(communts go by a chani of premitive communisiom-salvery-feudal sysetm-captalism-ulitamte communisiom).

while Hindutva idiots sorry hindutva Brthren, try to paint Gurmat more as sort of Hindu reaction of Muslim oppression.

both ways are not prefect.Sikhism has some unique and unprcedented traits.


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## dalsingh (Dec 28, 2006)

Gyani Ji, 

You posted the following:

"History is the ROOTS..on which the "tree" feeds..kill the root and the tree dies...Punjabi Saying..Jarrahn vich tel denna..apply OIL to the roots ( to kill the tree) is applicable to such acts as highlighted in the original post.
1. That is why the Enemies of Sikhism - beginnign with Sri Chand son of Guru nanak Ji began a RIVAL STREAM of thought/philosophy to GURMATT of Guru nanak Ji...and his successors wrote "False gurbani" under the name of "Nanak" to waylay Sikhs and spread Kachee Bani to fool Sikhs..Guru Amardss Ji ahd to warn about this in Anand sahib..Satgur Bina hor kachee bani..kehndeh kache sundeh kache kachee aakh sunani..
2. The second act of these enemies was to ADULTERATE and spread FALSE history baout Sikhs and Gurus...the Bhai bala Janamsakhi is a case in point. Later on books like Gurbilas Patshi chhevin, dasvin, bachittra natak granth etc etc were written to divert Sikhs from Genuine Gurmatt and History.
3. Even Sikh writers were fooled..Rattn Singh Bhangu took "Bhang"..so he writes that Guru nanak ji also took BHANG.... Kavi Santokh Singh of Sooraj parksah was a devi bhagat ..so he makes Guru gobind Singh ji a Devi-Bhagat
4. This attack on our history now continues with the Daylight ROBBERY of ALL our "history" stored in the Sikh reference Library in 1984..and all this is still MISSING - in the World's LARGEST DEMOCRACY ??..
5. Further attacks come in barefaced misconstruction, outright insults to our Gurus and examples like...Banda singh bahadur being converted to banda Bairagi ( no such person ever existed)

Only those Nations who Love and Preserve their HISTORY survive...look to the JEWs for a lesson..the KEY is EDUCATION ..
Gyani jarnail Singh"

I fully agree with your views but was wondering how Sikhs can write their history without refering to such material. I think it is high time Sikhs write a definitive account of their history for the younger generation. 

The problem lays with the fact that Sikhs/Khalsa have never been very good at recording their own history, usually because they were too busy making history against all odds. But how do we produce a proper account, seeing as almost all surviving accounts seem to have been adulterated or biased by their writers as you pointed out?


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## sikh78910 (Dec 29, 2006)

akashdeep singh ji, can i just firstly thank you from the bottom of my heart for  the sewa you are doing in unveiling these evil acts of tampering to our sacred history. if you could please please send me some internet links and indian government sites so i could help in this it would be very much appreciated. i am young but i belive that my generation needs representation to spread awareness as well as sikhi and the true way. thankyou ji hope to hear from you...
sat sri akaal 

humble sikh.


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## Guglani (Dec 30, 2006)

Best way to write history is available on site Main Page - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.
Please do narrate your experience about visiting or about becoming a sikhiwikian.
I hope pepole with you interst profile shall enjoy.

G.S.guglani



dalsingh said:


> Gyani Ji,
> 
> You posted the following:
> 
> ...


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## Akashdeep Singh (Jan 3, 2007)

sikh78910 said:


> akashdeep singh ji, can i just firstly thank you from the bottom of my heart for  the sewa you are doing in unveiling these evil acts of tampering to our sacred history. if you could please please send me some internet links and indian government sites so i could help in this it would be very much appreciated. i am young but i belive that my generation needs representation to spread awareness as well as sikhi and the true way. thankyou ji hope to hear from you...
> sat sri akaal
> 
> humble sikh.



Khalsa Ji,

Thanks for appreciation. I am delighted to know that you are taking interested in Sikh history. Unfortunately, I do not have any big list of internet sites. I would recommend you to keep reading newspapers on the internet to keep an eye what is going on in Punjab and other parts of India. Punjab related news can read from The Tribune, Chandigarh, India in english. I am in touch with the history textbooks of NCERT and CBSE boards of India as I have grouwn up reading those textbooks and some of my younger cousins are also studying those books. 

Additionally, I would recommend the following sites: -
Rozana Spokesman
SikhSpectrum.com Quarterly
SSI Canada
Sikh-MARG "The Way Of Life"
Send me a private message if you have any questions or suggestions and I will try to help you out with the little brain that I have got. 

Sat Shri Akaal,
-Akashdeep Singh


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## sikh78910 (Jan 10, 2007)

hi akashdeep ji,'
sorry for the late reply! but thankyou very much, and i will pm u if i need to know more! Thanks again and keep up the good work!

Kind regards

Sikh


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## badmash (Feb 10, 2007)

Very nice posts and very good subject. 
I think the reality is mixed but sad also.

Regarding Sikh intelligentsia, if you will, we have always lacked a critical core mass of intellectuals to sustain a truly long lived, professional maintenance of Sikhism. That has to do with history, economics, wars, partition, the ill will of India, etc.  Hopefully that is changing.

We are majorly challenged by losing Punjabi language among younger generations. Punjabi is also one of the roots of the proverbial tree. 

To give an example of our mixed lot today, take Sikh Manmohan Singh, PM of India. He visits France while france puts down the turban and he cannot seemingly help to bring any light into the 1984 issues regarding Sikh historical literature. 

1984 says much about sikhs and their future in India. The response of Sikh dominated security forces and the government against the Sikh population also speaks for its own reprehensible and cannabilistic depravity. 

No doubt sikhism will survive. But like every other religion much altered. Altered in appearance of its advocates, their speech, their outlook, their toughness (or lack of it) and their intellectualism. 

If indeed Sikh scriptures have been maliciously destroyed by the Indian government, then the hell with the rotten dung that is modern India, and 
sad that our forefathers died for that pathetic country and its people.

sincerely


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