# Why Our Souls Separated From God?



## Yuno (Apr 18, 2018)

Since according to sikhi, the ultimate aim of human life is to become ONE with god, I wonder why souls separated from god in the first place?

P.S. I don't wanna hurt anyone's feelings so please bear with it if my question sounds arrogant.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 19, 2018)

Yuno said:


> Since according to sikhi, the ultimate aim of human life is to become ONE with god, I wonder why souls separated from god in the first place?
> 
> P.S. I don't wanna hurt anyone's feelings so please bear with it if my question sounds arrogant.



According to Gurbani, it’s not that our souls are something separate from Creator at all. Rather we are in a state of illusion of separation where we have forgotten that we really are ONE. 

There is a reason for duality. As ONE there is nothing else and nobody else to make subjective comparison. As ONE it’s impossible to contemplate anything or anyone else. It’s only through duality that ONE can experience subjectively its own self. However it would not work if memory was retained as then the illusion of separateness collapses as soon as you realize you are in fact ONE. 

I remember a quote which sums it up well... paraphrased... “Reality is the act of the ONE Creator experiencing itself subjectively through its own creation” and this must be done in amnesia of itself or it really isn’t able to grasp a separate point of observation... because well there really in reality is none. 

When we speak of ‘merging’ back with Creator really what we should say is remove the veil of illusion which is keeping us from remembering that we are already ONE and always were ONE and always will be ONE.


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## Harry Haller (Apr 19, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> According to Gurbani,



I think its more according to your understanding of Gurbani, than Gurbani per se, unless you have had intimate talks with God?


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 19, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> I think its more according to your understanding of Gurbani, than Gurbani per se, unless you have had intimate talks with God?



Actually Gurbani has many references to duality itself being the illusion. This shabad also puts it into context. It’s soeaking specifically about the atma... not the mind being enlightened when the illusion is removed. It speaks about the duality of the body... is separateness... vice being ‘merged’.
“The illusion of duality is easily removed”
In peace their body’s duality is removed and they ‘merge’ with (Creator). So duality is the illusion. 
Once that illusion is torn down, their atma (part of the paramatma) recognizes that they are ONE.



> ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
> गउड़ी महला ५ ॥
> Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 5.
> Gauree, Fifth Mehl:
> ...


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## Tejwant Singh (Apr 19, 2018)

Yuno said:


> Since according to sikhi, the ultimate aim of human life is to become ONE with god, I wonder why souls separated from god in the first place?



I am sorry to disappoint you but that is not a Sikhi thought. 
1. What is Soul as per your understanding? Please elaborate.

A Sikh is always One with the One, Ik Ong Kaar in the only life he/she has. This is what omnipresence of The Source means. 
A Sikh is Ik Ong Kaar centred the day he becomes one unlike in other religions where the judgement is after death. A Sikh judges his/her actions with each and every breath.


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## Yuno (Apr 19, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> I am sorry to disappoint you but that is not a Sikhi thought.
> 1. What is Soul as per your understanding? Please elaborate.
> 
> A Sikh is always One with the One, Ik Ong Kaar in the only life he/she has. This is what omnipresence of The Source means.
> A Sikh is Ik Ong Kaar centred the day he becomes one unlike in other religions where the judgement is after death. A Sikh judges his/her actions with each and every breath.


I do not have any particular word to use for what's soul as per my understanding but I would like to elaborate my thoughts.
"Soul is what gives me idea of what's wrong and what's right. I believe soul is something that's more like god himself."
I can't really explain much like this but please ask me some more questions as like do you think soul is this? or that? I would be able to explain better.


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## Yuno (Apr 19, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> As ONE it’s impossible to contemplate anything or anyone else.


Since God is omniscient and becoming ONE with god would obviously be becoming omniscient so I don't understand how can anything be impossible to contemplate as ONE?


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## Yuno (Apr 19, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> When we speak of ‘merging’ back with Creator really what we should say is remove the *veil of illusion* which is keeping us from remembering that we are already ONE and always were ONE and always will be ONE.


I want to know why illusion and why everything?
Question coming to my mind is if I DARE to ask why God created everything? And why then, when he did, why not before that?

P.S. These thoughts keep on coming to my mind after I realized most people talk about what after death? Reincarnation? like thoughts. Whereas my mind revolves around past about reason behind all this.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 19, 2018)

Yuno said:


> Since God is omniscient and becoming ONE with god would obviously be becoming omniscient so I don't understand how can anything be impossible to contemplate as ONE?



As ONE there is no other to contemplate. As soon as something ‘other’ is contemplated then you now have duality... the ONE and the ‘other’. In reality there is no ‘other’ as it’s only and idea of ‘other’ and from the point of view of the ‘other’ it seems as if there are two - the ONE and the other. As soon as realization happens from duality point of view the illusion collapses and all is ONE. And from ONEness as soon as an ‘other’ anything is contemplated there is duality. I don’t think there is a why to this...so much as there just ‘is’. 

Speaking from a purely philosophical viewpoint anyway.


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Apr 20, 2018)

What is a soul?  Maybe my thinking is too simplistic, but I believe that Sikhi teaches us that everyone has the light (jot) of the One. This light is eternal, unchanging, and immortal. I call this light my soul. Eventually, it will be consciously reunited with the One. The spark merges with the fire, as the drop of water merges with the ocean. I see no reason to complicate the matter.


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## Yuno (Apr 20, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> As ONE there is no other to contemplate. As soon as something ‘other’ is contemplated then you now have duality... the ONE and the ‘other’. In reality there is no ‘other’ as it’s only and idea of ‘other’ and from the point of view of the ‘other’ it seems as if there are two - the ONE and the other. As soon as realization happens from duality point of view the illusion collapses and all is ONE. And from ONEness as soon as an ‘other’ anything is contemplated there is duality. I don’t think there is a why to this...so much as there just ‘is’.
> 
> Speaking from a purely philosophical viewpoint anyway.


Understood. Still I would like to continue quest of finding why.


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## Harry Haller (Apr 20, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> As ONE there is no other to contemplate. As soon as something ‘other’ is contemplated then you now have duality... the ONE and the ‘other’. In reality there is no ‘other’ as it’s only and idea of ‘other’ and from the point of view of the ‘other’ it seems as if there are two - the ONE and the other. As soon as realization happens from duality point of view the illusion collapses and all is ONE. And from ONEness as soon as an ‘other’ anything is contemplated there is duality. I don’t think there is a why to this...so much as there just ‘is’.
> 
> Speaking from a purely philosophical viewpoint anyway.



rubbish, there are lots of why's. I have been bombarding you with why's from day one, but you never answer, if there is an 'is' it is only to you, not me, there are a million philosophical view points, how arrogant for anyone to assume their theory is, rather than have to explain why


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## Harry Haller (Apr 20, 2018)

Yuno said:


> Understood. Still I would like to continue quest of finding why.


 
you wake up, you live your life, you go to sleep, you do the same the next day, then you die, and then your nothing, in between you learn,

Speaking from a purely philosophical viewpoint anyway.

for myself, I am happy to debate this in full and answer any questions


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## Yuno (Apr 20, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> you wake up, you live your life, you go to sleep, you do the same the next day, then you die, and then your nothing, in between you learn,
> 
> Speaking from a purely philosophical viewpoint anyway.
> 
> for myself, I am happy to debate this in full and answer any questions


I would like to know your philosophical view point of why God could have created everything and why then when he did? Why not before that?


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## Harry Haller (Apr 20, 2018)

I have no viewpoint on it as it is not relevant to me, there are many questions that one could answer, tell me what benefit the answer has to you?

Actually its impossible to answer, if God has been around forever, then time is irrelevant, I could say God did it a few years after God came on the scene, but God has always been on the scene, so your asking a human being an impossible question that only a God could answer, I am not a God unfortunately, but there are a few on this site that think they are, they could give you answer


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## Yuno (Apr 20, 2018)

Inderjeet Kaur said:


> What is a soul?  Maybe my thinking is too simplistic, but I believe that Sikhi teaches us that everyone has the light (jot) of the One. This light is eternal, unchanging, and immortal. I call this light my soul. Eventually, it will be consciously reunited with the One. The spark merges with the fire, as the drop of water merges with the ocean. I see no reason to complicate the matter.


For this spark to merge with fire and for this drop of water to merge with ocean is only possible if it was not already ONE with it.


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## Yuno (Apr 20, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> I have no viewpoint on it as it is not relevant to me, there are many questions that one could answer, tell me what benefit the answer has to you?
> 
> Actually its impossible to answer, if God has been around forever, then time is irrelevant, I could say God did it a few years after God came on the scene, but God has always been on the scene, so your asking a human being an impossible question that only a God could answer, I am not a God unfortunately, but there are a few on this site that think they are, that could give you answer


Sir, I now do agree with that this could be answered by god himself.
Keeping it simple, benefit from the answer would simply be that everything like reincarnation,new life on basis of deeds in previous life, might all start making sense.
In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji reason to get free from cycle of life and death is to merge back with ONE. But I did not( I don't have full knowledge) found any reason suggesting why ONE(creator)(god) started everything?
Then again I guess only god himself is able to answer


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## Harry Haller (Apr 20, 2018)

Yuno said:


> Sir, I now do agree with that this could be answered by god himself.
> Keeping it simple, benefit from the answer would simply be that everything like reincarnation,new life on basis of deeds in previous life, might all start making sense.
> In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji reason to get free from cycle of life and death is to merge back with ONE. But I did not( I don't have full knowledge) found any reason suggesting why ONE(creator)(god) started everything?
> Then again I guess only god himself is able to answer



sorry to complicate, but it is not a given, even within Sikhism, that reincarnation and life on basis of previous deeds has any foundation, many Sikhs live their life free of this Vedic concept on the basis that there is no reward for being good other than doing good itself, but what actually constitutes good takes some pondering, every day you get the chance to merge with the one, and every day you get the chance not to, it is your choice, nothing is forever, everything changes, forever changes, 

just another philosophical concept....


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 20, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> rubbish, there are lots of why's. I have been bombarding you with why's from day one, but you never answer, if there is an 'is' it is only to you, not me, there are a million philosophical view points, how arrogant for anyone to assume their theory is, rather than have to explain why



When I said it just ‘is’ I was speaking about the ONEness point of view vs duality and that as soon as from the duality viewpoint is realized that everything is ONE, the duality automatically collapses. It’s just ‘logic’ same as from ONEness point of view if ONE contemplates an other then thereby is no more ONE. Duality is created. I wasn’t speaking about my personal beliefs but just logic applied to philosophy. Even in classical sense read Aristotle etc. Same realizations... 

I wasn’t really even intimating my own theory as such. Just showing how that philosophical thought agrees with Gurbani. Your view on the meaning of that shabad may be different... from what I remember in past conversations I am thinking you more interpret it to mean duality as like a split personality disorder and integration in a psychology sense? (I’m asking not telling so please share how you would interpret that shabad).


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 20, 2018)

Yuno said:


> For this spark to merge with fire and for this drop of water to merge with ocean is only possible if it was not already ONE with it.



This is why I believe several shabads mention something to the effect “why speak of merging when one is already merged” instead of a separate drop of water from the ocean, think of several individual atoms of water still floating in the ocean, but unaware that’s where they really are.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Apr 20, 2018)

Yuno said:


> I would like to know your philosophical view point of why God could have created everything and why then when he did? Why not before that?



Do we even have a ‘when’? We can’t accurately say how long the universe has been in existence. Rather I’d say that our experience of time is somewhat of an illusion. If someone is closer to the sun, their experience of time is different than those of us on earth. If you were to enter a black hole (and survive it) time would be essentially at a stand still compared to those outside. Some scientists are now thinking the entire universe works like a hologram. All the information for the 3-4D time space is stored ‘somewhere’ in a singular plane in a state of just pure existence... where all of time can be seen from an outside viewpoint.
Take for example a book. A novel sitting on a table. It contains all of the story, including its passage of time in the story. But the book sitting there cover closed, it contains all of the story, all of the time. That information always exists but until someone enters the story by reading it, they don’t experience the illusion of time in the story. Or similarly a computer game sitting on a hard drive on a computer which is powered off. The entire game world is there. But until you power on the computer and enter the game world it’s just data stored on a device. How can you say how much time passes in that game world? When was it created? It will be different for each player after all right? Their own experience of that game exists an entirely different version and experience of time in that world.


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## Yuno (Apr 20, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> but it is not a given, even within Sikhism, that reincarnation and life on basis of previous deeds has any foundation, many Sikhs live their life free of this Vedic concept


No sir either you are still complicating or missing some point but it sure does have some foundation that our current life's deeds would effect reincarnation of next life. Confusion might have been caused by my usage of word "previous deeds", I used that word to represent next life.

"Guru Nanak warns: suni suni sikh hamari sukritu kita rahasi mere jiare bahuri na avai vari — Listen, listen to my advice, O my Mind! *Only good deeds shall endure*, and there may not be another chance (GG, 154). Says Guru Arjan: “milu jagadis milan ki baria chirankal ih deh sanjaria — do meet the Lord of the Universe, for now is the time. After ages (passing through many different forms) have you attained the gift of human life” (GG, 176). Here in the world man has the opportunity to achieve ethical perfection, cherish the Lord and earn final release."


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## Harry Haller (Apr 20, 2018)

Yuno said:


> No sir either you are still complicating or missing some point but it sure does have some foundation that our current life's deeds would effect reincarnation of next life. Confusion might have been caused by my usage of word "previous deeds", I used that word to represent next life.
> 
> "Guru Nanak warns: suni suni sikh hamari sukritu kita rahasi mere jiare bahuri na avai vari — Listen, listen to my advice, O my Mind! *Only good deeds shall endure*, and there may not be another chance (GG, 154). Says Guru Arjan: “milu jagadis milan ki baria chirankal ih deh sanjaria — do meet the Lord of the Universe, for now is the time. After ages (passing through many different forms) have you attained the gift of human life” (GG, 176). Here in the world man has the opportunity to achieve ethical perfection, cherish the Lord and earn final release."



There are many Sikhs that reject reincarnation and karma


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## Yuno (Apr 20, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> There are many Sikhs that reject reincarnation and karma


Okay, didn't knew about that.


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## Yuno (Apr 20, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Do we even have a ‘when’? We can’t accurately say how long the universe has been in existence.


I used the word 'when' to express my thought but I surely did not questioned anything like for how long universe has been in existence.


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## Yuno (Apr 20, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Do we even have a ‘when’? We can’t accurately say how long the universe has been in existence. Rather I’d say that our experience of time is somewhat of an illusion. If someone is closer to the sun, their experience of time is different than those of us on earth. If you were to enter a black hole (and survive it) time would be essentially at a stand still compared to those outside. Some scientists are now thinking the entire universe works like a hologram. All the information for the 3-4D time space is stored ‘somewhere’ in a singular plane in a state of just pure existence... where all of time can be seen from an outside viewpoint.
> Take for example a book. A novel sitting on a table. It contains all of the story, including its passage of time in the story. But the book sitting there cover closed, it contains all of the story, all of the time. That information always exists but until someone enters the story by reading it, they don’t experience the illusion of time in the story. Or similarly a computer game sitting on a hard drive on a computer which is powered off. The entire game world is there. But until you power on the computer and enter the game world it’s just data stored on a device. How can you say how much time passes in that game world? When was it created? It will be different for each player after all right? Their own experience of that game exists an entirely different version and experience of time in that world.


This whole explanation is considerable if I asked anything about time which I certainly did not.
What I asked was the reason behind creation. After that I asked what was he doing before that, why didn't he created anything before than when he did.
But all that is now just in vain as *Harry Haller* already helped me in understanding that all that could be answer by god himself.
"Actually its impossible to answer, if God has been around forever, then time is irrelevant, I could say God did it a few years after God came on the scene, but God has always been on the scene, *so your asking a human being an impossible question that only a God could answer*, I am not a God unfortunately, but there are a few on this site that think they are, they could give you answer."


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## Harry Haller (Apr 20, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> When I said it just ‘is’ I was speaking about the ONEness point of view vs duality and that as soon as from the duality viewpoint is realized that everything is ONE, the duality automatically collapses. It’s just ‘logic’ same as from ONEness point of view if ONE contemplates an other then thereby is no more ONE. Duality is created. I wasn’t speaking about my personal beliefs but just logic applied to philosophy. Even in classical sense read Aristotle etc. Same realizations...
> 
> I wasn’t really even intimating my own theory as such. Just showing how that philosophical thought agrees with Gurbani. Your view on the meaning of that shabad may be different... from what I remember in past conversations I am thinking you more interpret it to mean duality as like a split personality disorder and integration in a psychology sense? (I’m asking not telling so please share how you would interpret that shabad).



Harkiranji

I have changed my thoughts since our past conversations, all we have is the now, and what we do with it is the meaning of life, is my current stance.

As far as God goes, I have yet to meet anyone that knows God, that has any belief system that can be challenged, without any blanks, so I have to conclude that God is utterly unknowable other than a few crumbs of knowledge.

my opinion only.

P.S. There are a million different ways of accepting God and the meaning of this life, we are not restricted to only the two lines of thought, duality and oneness, although they explain the metaphysical states, I personally reject them both as a way of explaining life, we can wax lyrical about drops in the ocean all we like, but at the end of the day we will live a life, and then we will die, whether it carries on, or not, that much is true, we can take a look and make theories about a bigger picture, and how this life can be part of that, or we can focus completely on this life, or, in my case, we can just live today, plant a few good seeds for tomorrow, and keep going until tomorrow exists no more, and hopefully learn about ourselves along the way, we could call this {censored}itism


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## chazSingh (Jun 2, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> When I said it just ‘is’ I was speaking about the ONEness point of view vs duality and that as soon as from the duality viewpoint is realized that everything is ONE, the duality automatically collapses. It’s just ‘logic’ same as from ONEness point of view if ONE contemplates an other then thereby is no more ONE. Duality is created. I wasn’t speaking about my personal beliefs but just logic applied to philosophy. Even in classical sense read Aristotle etc. Same realizations...
> 
> I wasn’t really even intimating my own theory as such. Just showing how that philosophical thought agrees with Gurbani. Your view on the meaning of that shabad may be different... from what I remember in past conversations I am thinking you more interpret it to mean duality as like a split personality disorder and integration in a psychology sense? (I’m asking not telling so please share how you would interpret that shabad).



Like waking up each morning and realising the YOU in the dream wasn't real 

Everything comes from this unveiling...thankfully we have shabad Guru to help ease us out of our entanglement with duality lol...

Your posts ring very true with my own first hand experiences...never stop your unravelling in inner seeking...we need people like you


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## Sikhilove (Jun 14, 2018)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> According to Gurbani, it’s not that our souls are something separate from Creator at all. Rather we are in a state of illusion of separation where we have forgotten that we really are ONE.
> 
> There is a reason for duality. As ONE there is nothing else and nobody else to make subjective comparison. As ONE it’s impossible to contemplate anything or anyone else. It’s only through duality that ONE can experience subjectively its own self. However it would not work if memory was retained as then the illusion of separateness collapses as soon as you realize you are in fact ONE.
> 
> ...



I like and agree with much of your post 

We all really know who we are, we just choose to sell out to maya.

All is blessed karam. We remember and forget as He Wills it according to what we deserve. Don't use so much logic, just experience with your heart.

Go into deep samadhi, go deeper


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## Sikhilove (Jun 14, 2018)

chazSingh said:


> Like waking up each morning and realising the YOU in the dream wasn't real
> 
> Everything comes from this unveiling...thankfully we have shabad Guru to help ease us out of our entanglement with duality lol...
> 
> Your posts ring very true with my own first hand experiences...never stop your unravelling in inner seeking...we need people like you



Lol funny how some of us just know this stuff from our heart speaking within. Shows that we are all One


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 14, 2018)

Our personal experiences are personal which cannot be shared with anyone.

It is your attempt to mock others who have not had the same experience as you and Chaz claim you did is uncalled for and it seems from your various posts in various threads that you have convinced yourself you are the chosen few, is a mockery of Sikhi which is a shame.


Sikhilove said:


> Lol funny how some of us just know this stuff from our heart speaking within. Shows that we are all One


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## Harry Haller (Jun 14, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> Lol funny how some of us just know this stuff from our heart speaking within. Shows that we are all One


how can you know its your heart? and how can that show we are all one? I personally think you are speaking through another organ, we are clearly not all one......


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## sukhsingh (Jun 15, 2018)

Yuno said:


> Since according to sikhi, the ultimate aim of human life is to become ONE with god, I wonder why souls separated from god in the first place?
> 
> P.S. I don't wanna hurt anyone's feelings so please bear with it if my question sounds arrogant.


I don't think sikhi professes such a position on any level


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## sukhsingh (Jun 15, 2018)

I don't believe oneness is a accurate description, or counter point to dualism.. I think the term non-dualism is more accurate to describe sikh philosophy.. Sikh philosophy does not reject duality, rather it accepts that opposites are defined by the other.. However, there is no other when you realise that the 'other' is defined symbiotically, and moreover once you realise that you realise that we create, paradigms, political, cultural, social, economic and ultimately power structures which define us and the environments we create.. Of domination, exploitation, fear based on the 'other'. 

Sikhi in my interpretation recognises and more importantly provides not only philosophical articulations to understand that but more importantly ideals to live by so as to counter the consequences of sentient consciousness.. 

Naam japo, kirat karo, vandh shako


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## Yuno (Jun 16, 2018)

sukhsingh said:


> I don't think sikhi professes  on any level


Which position exactly?


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## sukhsingh (Jun 16, 2018)

Yuno said:


> Which position exactly?


Souls separated from god


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 16, 2018)

sukhsingh said:


> Souls separated from god



This really puzzles me. As Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent, it is impossible to have separation of any sort.


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (Jun 16, 2018)

God and soul are never separated. it is like ether, air or light- inside or outside it is the same. Body's wall or structure does not separate them.


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## Yuno (Jun 16, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> This really puzzles me. As Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent, it is impossible to have separation of any sort.





dalvindersingh grewal said:


> God and soul are never separated. it is like ether, air or light- inside or outside it is the same. Body's wall or structure does not separate them.



Agreed. Now,if the word "merging" back with god is right, then what word can define those' current state who haven't merged with god yet?
Just to make clear, all I wanted to know was the reason behind god's creation, why everything started in the first place? Which Harry Haller told me "only god knows this answer"


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 16, 2018)

Yuno said:


> Agreed. Now,if the word "merging" back with god is right, then what word can define those' current state who haven't merged with god yet?
> Just to make clear, all I wanted to know was the reason behind god's creation, why everything started in the first place? Which Harry Haller told me "only god knows this answer"



Merging is an incorrect translation. All the Shabads where 'merging' is used in English, it simply means to make our mind Ik Ong Kaar centred.  The so-called 'separation' from The Source is about our mind that has not found the connection yet. Gurbani gives us the connector.



> Just to make clear, all I wanted to know was the reason behind god's creation, why everything started in the first place?



Well, then I would urge you to read anything written by Neil deGrasse Tyson. He says that "we are part of the Stardust."  How can we not be?

Sikhi teaches us to say, "I do not know," perhaps one day, I will find out. Sikhi only focuses on the only life we know and gives us the tools how to make ourselves better as beings in all aspects in this very life. This is all one can do if one is willing to.


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## sukhsingh (Jun 17, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> This really puzzles me. As Ik Ong Kaar is omnipresent, it is impossible to have separation of any sort.


I agree


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## Sikhilove (Jun 17, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Our personal experiences are personal which cannot be shared with anyone.
> 
> It is your attempt to mock others who have not had the same experience as you and Chaz claim you did is uncalled for and it seems from your various posts in various threads that you have convinced yourself you are the chosen few, is a mockery of Sikhi which is a shame.



I haven't mocked anyone, that's your opinion. 

I never said I'm one of the chosen few, I'm saying that the Source sits in each and every heart, and I'm saying listen to Him. 

You seem to be condemning people who listen to and believe Him without doubt.

Would you prefer that we wonder around listening to maya instead?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 17, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> I haven't mocked anyone, that's your opinion.



Please check your posts. There is nothing but mockery, sad to notice.



Sikhilove said:


> I never said I'm one of the chosen few, I'm saying that the Source sits in each and every heart, and *I'm saying listen to Him*.



Thanks for proving my point.
How did you decide on your own that others are not listening to him?
Only Ik Ong Kaar knows that. No one else does nor ever will.



Sikhilove said:


> You seem to be condemning people who listen to and believe Him without doubt.



Not me. Questioning is not condemnation. Being judgemental is.



Sikhilove said:


> Would you prefer that we wonder around listening to maya instead?



I am no one to tell anyone what to do unless asked.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 18, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> You seem to be condemning people who listen to and believe Him without doubt.





how do you know its him?

what if its someone else?


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## Sikhilove (Jun 18, 2018)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Please check your posts. There is nothing but mockery, sad to notice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Lol all youre doing in your post is being judgemental and jumping to illogical conclusions.


I never said i'm one of the chosen few, nor in my post asking people to listen to their hearts am I implying that they already don't. I have no idea what stage people are at.

Only I know who I am and only people know who they are. He judges not me.

You seem to think that I'm a someone. I'm noone, I merely agreed with Chaz Ji and said that the proof is in the pudding.

Millions of people have similar experiences, it's proof of the Source.


Another eg: I sat in a meditation session once, and a random  guy who I 'd never met before (not brown) had the exact same experience as me.  He wasn't 'sikh', he was just a normal guy who had basically never meditated before. I wouldn't call him and I the chosen ones, but I would say that the experience we had in meditation was proof in front of our eyes that we are One.

You and I are One also, as are the countless number of lifeforms in the universe. If you feel like less or don't feel happy with others having experiences, then look around you at the Miracle that is Parbrahm. That within itself is totally beyond awe inspiring. Don't tell me you don't experience miracles every day.  

I'll leave it at that


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## Sikhilove (Jun 18, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> how do you know its him?
> 
> what if its someone else?



That's where your intuition and your faith kicks in. We've known the Truth since birth and before, we merely refuse to acknowledge it.

Look up at the night sky, at the stars, feel the wind when it brushes past your face. He communicates with us every moment, we just don't listen.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 18, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> That's where your intuition and your faith kicks in. We've known the Truth since birth and before, we merely refuse to acknowledge it.
> 
> Look up at the night sky, at the stars, feel the wind when it brushes past your face. He communicates with us every moment, we just don't listen.



ok, let me get this right, you use the stars and the wind to communicate with god, and in that, you see his answers, and then you act on them as the word of god, ok, sounds good, no room for confusion in the messages then! 

If its all the same with you, I'll carry on going with my gut, at least then, I can only blame myself for my mistakes, rather than the position of the stars, or the direction of the wind


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## Yuno (Jun 19, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> That's where your intuition and your faith kicks in. *We've known the Truth since birth and before*,* we merely refuse to acknowledge it.*
> 
> Look up at the night sky, at the stars, feel the wind when it brushes past your face. He communicates with us every moment, we just don't listen.


I don't know the truth, I simply believe in what I feel is the truth. Anyhow, since you are saying "*We've* known the truth", I would like to know the truth from you.
Moving further, I have no idea why would anyone *REFUSE* a knowledge of such great extent.


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## Yuno (Jun 19, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> but I would say that the experience we had in meditation was *proof* in front of our eyes *that we are One*.


If we are *already* *ONE* as you have said then why the gurus have guided us that goal of our lives is to merge with ONE and become ONE?
Why the cycle of life and death exists if we are already one?



Sikhilove said:


> *Don't tell me you don't experience miracles every day.*


I don't. And I would like to know if miracles even exist.


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## Sikhilove (Jun 20, 2018)

_If we are *already* *ONE* as you have said then why the gurus have guided us that goal of our lives is to merge with ONE and become ONE?
Why the cycle of life and death exists if we are already one?_

They're teaching us to realise our true origin, our true nature. Since birth, we've become so caught up in the illusion that we've forgotten. We get attached to family, friends, places, things. Our minds are clouded with procrastinations that keep our minds and souls busy. 

Have you read gurbani? If not, it's a good read. Accept and apply the knowledge to your life, everyday, and you'll realise the Truth more and more, and go deeper and deeper. 


_I don't. And I would like to know if miracles even exist.
_
Your birth was a miracle. From a universe originally derived from Nothing, the entire creation is a miracle.


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## Sikhilove (Jun 20, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> ok, let me get this right, you use the stars and the wind to communicate with god, and in that, you see his answers, and then you act on them as the word of god, ok, sounds good, no room for confusion in the messages then!
> 
> If its all the same with you, I'll carry on going with my gut, at least then, I can only blame myself for my mistakes, rather than the position of the stars, or the direction of the wind



Lol, you're funny. Don't be so serious and always on the attack- the world is not out to get you. God loves you.

The stars and wind are only a tiny aspect and fragment of His miracle.

The entire universe and beyond is a testament to and miracle of His love.

You are a miracle and a testament to His love. He made u out of pure, complete and unconditional love.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 20, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> Lol, you're funny.


you have no idea



Sikhilove said:


> Don't be so serious and always on the attack


I never attack, I just ask questions, I am sorry if it feels that way



Sikhilove said:


> the world is not out to get you. God loves you.



I don't know that it is, I have little to do with it, but yes, God loves me, and is there all the time, he has enjoyed my pleasures, and shared my sorrows, everything is as it should be..




Sikhilove said:


> The stars and wind are only a tiny aspect and fragment of His miracle.
> 
> The entire universe and beyond is a testament to and miracle of His love.



that still does not answer as to whether it is a good idea to seek guidance through this, and put weight on random events within this miracle, that is my only point


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## Yuno (Jun 20, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> _If we are *already* *ONE* as you have said then why the gurus have guided us that goal of our lives is to merge with ONE and become ONE?
> Why the cycle of life and death exists if we are already one?_
> 
> They're teaching us to *realise* our true origin, our true nature. Since birth, we've become so caught up in the illusion that *we've forgotten*. We get attached to family, friends, places, things. Our minds are clouded with procrastinations that *keep our minds and souls busy.*


1. Sorry to be so buggy but you just said "They're teaching us to *realise* our true origin" and then you say "that *we've forgotten"*, so please tell me what to do is realize our true origin or remember it?
2. Well, life seems interesting when our minds and souls are busy 


Sikhilove said:


> _I don't. And I would like to know if miracles even exist.
> _
> *Your birth was a miracle.*


Ahm..I guess this is the point when you should finally clear what a* MIRACLE *means to you?


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## Harry Haller (Jun 20, 2018)

Its not really that important what a miracle means to the individual, to me a miracle might mean a Range Rover that never breaks down, we all have our different meanings, lets stick with the accepted meaning which is

*miracle*
[mir-uh-kuh l]
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun

an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.
a wonder; marvel.


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## Yuno (Jun 20, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> Its not really that important what a miracle means to the individual, to me a miracle might mean a Range Rover that never breaks down, we all have our different meanings, lets stick with the accepted meaning which is
> 
> *miracle*
> [mir-uh-kuh l]
> ...


Got it, and I hope@Sikhilove means the same.


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## Yuno (Jun 20, 2018)

But, if my birth is a miracle, then it would not be wrong to say that every happening in the past, now or future should be considered as miracle. Not just happenings, more like every single thing that existed, exists or is yet to come to existence.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 21, 2018)

some could say that the more we label everyday events, births, storms, deaths, lightning, as miracles, the more we are tempted not to understand the science and logic behind them, after all, Sikhism in my view, is a religion of logic and understanding with as few blanks as possible, it is the blanks that are the miracles, therefore miracles are bad, they are gaps in understanding that must be filled, the less miracles in a religion, the less blanks....


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## Yuno (Jun 21, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> some could say that the more we label everyday events, births, storms, deaths, lightning, as miracles, the more we are tempted not to understand the science and logic behind them, after all, Sikhism in my view, is a religion of logic and understanding with as few blanks as possible, it is the blanks that are the miracles, therefore miracles are bad, they are gaps in understanding that must be filled, the less miracles in a religion, the less blanks....


Well said.


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## Sikhilove (Jun 25, 2018)

Yuno said:


> 1. Sorry to be so buggy but you just said "They're teaching us to *realise* our true origin" and then you say "that *we've forgotten"*, so please tell me what to do is realize our true origin or remember it?
> 2. Well, life seems interesting when our minds and souls are busy
> 
> Ahm..I guess this is the point when you should finally clear what a* MIRACLE *means to you?



Busy with maya, not living our lives naturally in Truth.

We've forgotten and need to realise/ remember again. Furthermore, we are here (on earth) to learn additional lessons and have a blessed and precious opportunity to go deeper and learn even more.

A miracle is everything and nothing, everything including the projection of the Truth which is our origin, and also the nothingness from where we are derived. Every single aspect of the khel is a miracle, infinity is a miracle, He is a miracle.

Beyond logic.


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## Yuno (Jun 26, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> Busy with maya, not living our lives naturally in Truth.
> 
> We've forgotten and need to realise/ remember again. Furthermore, we are here (on earth) to learn additional lessons and have a blessed and precious opportunity to go deeper and learn even more.
> 
> ...


@Sikhilove First of all, realize and remember are not same at all so please do not mix em up. Secondly, I get your idea of miracle now, however I still do not believe in miracles instead of that I would like to believe that those are not miracles but rather god's doing.


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## sukhsingh (Jun 26, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> Busy with maya, not living our lives naturally in Truth.
> 
> We've forgotten and need to realise/ remember again. Furthermore, we are here (on earth) to learn additional lessons and have a blessed and precious opportunity to go deeper and learn even more.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but I find this really fluffy no disrespect


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (Jun 26, 2018)

Air, water or sunlight cannot be separated because they all are various forms of energy; so is the soul. The entire universe is changing forms/shapes but the fundamental energy remains the same. Soul remains unalienable part of the fundamental force, even though its actions and reactions in various forms change.


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## Ishna (Jun 27, 2018)

When I read Gurbani, the message I hear is that this is our opportunity to recognize and serve God. The sense of separation on any level is just an illusion. This reality we experience is God and the 'individual soul' is not separated because everything is whole already. Find me anything that is an 'other' besides God. Gurbani tells us there is no other.

The false sense of separation is what causes our suffering. It is haumai.

In my opinion, our sense of identity is an emergent property of being a sentient human being and it is a transitory thing that enables God to experience Itself through this toy of matter and mind.

If you live your life recognizing that your human awareness is just a flimsy thin vaneer of Maya and that the real substance of everything of God, how can you not be enraptuted at that realisation?

It also provides a solid foundation for ethics because everything you do, you do surrounded by God, and for no other reason. No fear of punishment or threats of torture. The only torture is never appreciating the fact that God is everything and thinking you're separate from It.


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## Yuno (Jun 27, 2018)

Ishna said:


> When I read Gurbani, the message I hear is that this is our opportunity to recognize and serve God. The sense of separation on any level is just an illusion. This reality we experience is God and the 'individual soul' is not separated because everything is whole already. Find me anything that is an 'other' besides God. Gurbani tells us there is no other.
> 
> The false sense of separation is what causes our suffering. It is haumai.
> 
> ...


Well, recently whenever I try to focus on god, I have been feeling/hearing/thinking something like god is one for all or all for one? Pardon me as I can not explain it completely as I don't have a complete idea of it myself.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 29, 2018)

I seem to have wandered onto some sort of yahoo chat group, I would remind us all that this is a philosophy forum....

[While all the off-topic posts have now been removed I leave Harry's message as a reminder for everyone including myself!  Thank you Harry. -Ishna]


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## Sikhilove (Jun 29, 2018)

sukhsingh said:


> I'm sorry but I find this really fluffy no disrespect



Well he is Waheguru, wondrous. Logic goes out the window when you start falling in love with Him.


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## Sikhilove (Jun 29, 2018)

Ishna said:


> When I read Gurbani, the message I hear is that this is our opportunity to recognize and serve God. The sense of separation on any level is just an illusion. This reality we experience is God and the 'individual soul' is not separated because everything is whole already. Find me anything that is an 'other' besides God. Gurbani tells us there is no other.
> 
> The false sense of separation is what causes our suffering. It is haumai.
> 
> ...



Cool post 

We all have our own soul, but are merged in Him, drop in the ocean, ocean in the drop. He set the khel going, out of a wish to share His discoveries with another. It's really beyond logic, hence why people say it needs to be experienced to really be felt.

Though in reality we experience it daily


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## Sikhilove (Jun 29, 2018)

Yuno said:


> Well, recently whenever I try to focus on god, I have been feeling/hearing/thinking something like god is one for all or all for one? Pardon me as I can not explain it completely as I don't have a complete idea of it myself.



Lol Hes in every heart, you have all the answers within you


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## Yuno (Jun 29, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> Lol Hes in every heart, *you have all the answers within you*


I sure have em in meh but I just do not know em all yet.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 29, 2018)

Yuno said:


> I sure have em in meh but I just do not know em all yet.


then you don't know yourself


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## Harry Haller (Jun 29, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> We all have our own soul, but are merged in Him, drop in the ocean, ocean in the drop. He set the khel going, out of a wish to share His discoveries with another. It's really beyond logic, hence why people say it needs to be experienced to really be felt.



please experience it to the full, but try and accept some of us are incapable of such, we get up in the morning, we live,we go  to bed, and one day we die, end of, is my personal opinion.


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## Ishna (Jun 29, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> Cool post
> 
> We all have our own soul, but are merged in Him, drop in the ocean, ocean in the drop. He set the khel going, out of a wish to share His discoveries with another. It's really beyond logic, hence why people say it needs to be experienced to really be felt.
> 
> Though in reality we experience it daily



Can you share some Gurbani that illustrates the idea of the God wishing to share discoveries with another, or indeed, some Gurbani that supports the idea that there is anything other than God, please?


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## Yuno (Jun 29, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> then you don't know yourself


I hope I get to know myself someday.


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## Ishna (Jun 29, 2018)

Yuno said:


> Well, recently whenever I try to focus on god, I have been feeling/hearing/thinking something like god is one for all or all for one? Pardon me as I can not explain it completely as I don't have a complete idea of it myself.



I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to express.  Are you saying that you're perceiving god to be the sum of all of us?


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## Yuno (Jun 29, 2018)

Ishna said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to express.  Are you saying that you're perceiving god to be the sum of all of us?


Yes and vice-versa.


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## sukhsingh (Jun 29, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> Well he is Waheguru, wondrous. Logic goes out the window when you start falling in love with Him.


I'm really unsure what to make of this. I totally appreciate your devotion. But personally I think logic and truth go hand in hand.. I don't believe in the idea that the divine is beyond comprehension and that somehow the application of logic is at odds with understanding, finding the divine.. In fact I believe in quite the opposite. Personally I believe that sikhi does something that no other philosophical tradition does.. It provides a clear framework to understand the divine in a logical way.. It focuses on 'sat', that which is true.. Throughout gurbani intellectual, philosophical arguments are addressed in a 'scientific' manner ..


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## Ishna (Jun 30, 2018)

sukhsingh said:


> I'm really unsure what to make of this. I totally appreciate your devotion. But personally I think logic and truth go hand in hand.. I don't believe in the idea that the divine is beyond comprehension and that somehow the application of logic is at odds with understanding, finding the divine.. In fact I believe in quite the opposite. Personally I believe that sikhi does something that no other philosophical tradition does.. It provides a clear framework to understand the divine in a logical way.. It focuses on 'sat', that which is true.. Throughout gurbani intellectual, philosophical arguments are addressed in a 'scientific' manner ..



While I agree with the spirit of your post, I disagree about a couple of things:

1. You said you don't believe in the idea that the divine is beyond comprehension.  While that's fine for you to believe, Gurbani reminds us that God is indeed beyond our comprehension.

2. You said (paraphrased) that no other philosophical tradition provides a clear framework to understand the divine in a logical way.  I would argue that there are philosophical systems that actually do this better, but then miss a good deal of the beauty and expression of Sikhi.  By my observation, Sikhi brings a closer experience of God than systems that understand God just logically.

[As an aside, I've also gone through this thread and deleted all the off-topic posts and one-liners.  They made a real mess of the thread.]


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## Ishna (Jun 30, 2018)

Yuno said:


> Yes and vice-versa.



Are you a kind of Vaishnava?  You seem to be expressing ideas you might find in their teachings, unless I'm mistaken.  This is some info from a Gaudiya Vaishnava website...



> ... conveyed in the _Katha Upanishad _(2.2.13) in the words _nityo nityanam chetanash_ _chetananam eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman:_ “There is one eternal being out of many eternals, one conscious being out of many conscious beings. It is the one who provides for the needs of the many.” This text states, in effect, that there is a class division in transcendence. It says that there are two categorically different types of eternal, conscious – hence, spiritual – beings. One category is singular in number (_nityo_), a set with only one member. This, then, is the category of God, who is one without a second. The other class is plural (_nityanam_), containing innumerable members. This is the category of the souls. The members of both classes are _brahman,_ spirit. Yet one of them is unique, peerless, in a class by Himself, for He is the singular, independent self-sustaining sustainer of all others. Each of the others possesses a multitude of peers, and all of them alike are intrinsically dependent upon the one. The one is absolute; the many are relative.



This kind of thinking is not present in Sikhi where the *overwhelming *emphasis is one Oneness, pure and simple.  Ang 83 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji:

ਪਉੜੀ ॥ 
Pa▫oṛī. 
Pauree: 

ਸਭ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਆਪਿ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਾਈ ॥ 
Sabẖ āpe ṯuḏẖ upā▫e kai āp kārai lā▫ī. 
You Yourself created all; You Yourself delegate the tasks. 

ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਵੇਖਿ ਵਿਗਸਦਾ ਆਪਣੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥ 
Ŧūŉ āpe vekẖ vigsaḏā āpṇī vadi▫ā▫ī. 
You Yourself are pleased, beholding Your Own Glorious Greatness. 

ਹਰਿ ਤੁਧਹੁ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਚਾ ਸਾਈ ॥ 
Har ṯuḏẖhu bāhar kicẖẖ nāhī ṯūŉ sacẖā sā▫ī. 
O Lord, there is nothing at all beyond You. You are the True Lord. 

ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਸਭਨੀ ਹੀ ਥਾਈ ॥ 
Ŧūŉ āpe āp varaṯḏā sabẖnī hī thā▫ī. 
You Yourself are contained in all places. 

ਹਰਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਧਿਆਵਹੁ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਹੁ ਜੋ ਲਏ ਛਡਾਈ ॥੨॥ 
Har ṯisai ḏẖi▫āvahu sanṯ janhu jo la▫e cẖẖadā▫ī. ||2|| 
Meditate on that Lord, O Saints; He shall rescue and save you. ||2||​
And 85


ਪਉੜੀ ॥ 
Pa▫oṛī. 
Pauree: 

ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਜਲੁ ਮੀਨਾ ਹੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਆਪਿ ਜਾਲੁ ॥ 
Ŧūŉ āpe jal mīnā hai āpe āpe hī āp jāl. 
You Yourself are the water, You Yourself are the fish, and You Yourself are the net. 

ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਲੁ ਵਤਾਇਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਸੇਬਾਲੁ ॥ 
Ŧūŉ āpe jāl vaṯā▫iḏā āpe vicẖ sebāl. 
You Yourself cast the net, and You Yourself are the bait. 

ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਕਮਲੁ ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਹੈ ਸੈ ਹਥਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਗੁਲਾਲੁ ॥ 
Ŧūŉ āpe kamal alipaṯ hai sai hathā vicẖ gulāl. 
You Yourself are the lotus, unaffected and still brightly-colored in hundreds of feet of water. 

ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਰਾਇਦਾ ਇਕ ਨਿਮਖ ਘੜੀ ਕਰਿ ਖਿਆਲੁ ॥ 
Ŧūŉ āpe mukaṯ karā▫iḏā ik nimakẖ gẖaṛī kar kẖi▫āl. 
You Yourself liberate those who think of You for even an instant. 

ਹਰਿ ਤੁਧਹੁ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਵੇਖਿ ਨਿਹਾਲੁ ॥੭॥ 
Har ṯuḏẖhu bāhar kicẖẖ nahī gur sabḏī vekẖ nihāl. ||7|| 
O Lord, nothing is beyond You. I am delighted to behold You, through the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||7||​
There are plenty more examples.


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## Ishna (Jun 30, 2018)

How about this from ang 206:

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 5. 
Gauree, Fifth Mehl: 

ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਰਾਇਆ ॥ 
Oh abẖināsī rā▫i▫ā. 
He is the Eternal King. 

ਨਿਰਭਉ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੈ ਬਸਤੇ ਇਹੁ ਡਰਨੁ ਕਹਾ ਤੇ ਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
Nirbẖa▫o sang ṯumārai basṯe ih daran kahā ṯe ā▫i▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
The Fearless Lord abides with you. So where does this fear come from? ||1||Pause|| 

ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਹੋਹਿ ਅਫਾਰੋ ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਨਿਮਾਨੋ ॥ 
Ėk mahal ṯūŉ hohi afāro ek mahal nimāno. 
In one person, You are arrogant and proud, and in another, You are meek and humble. 

ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਗਰੀਬਾਨੋ ॥੧॥ 
Ėk mahal ṯūŉ āpe āpe ek mahal garībāno. ||1|| 
In one person, You are all by Yourself, and in another, You are poor. ||1|| 

ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਬਕਤਾ ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਖਲੁ ਹੋਤਾ ॥ 
Ėk mahal ṯūŉ pandiṯ bakṯā ek mahal kẖal hoṯā. 
In one person, you are a Pandit, a religious scholar and a preacher, and in another, You are just a fool. 

ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਗ੍ਰਾਹਜੁ ਏਕ ਮਹਲਿ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਲੇਤਾ ॥੨॥ 
Ėk mahal ṯūŉ sabẖ kicẖẖ garāhaj ek mahal kacẖẖū na leṯā. ||2|| 
In one person, You grab hold of everything, and in another, You accept nothing. ||2|| 

ਕਾਠ ਕੀ ਪੁਤਰੀ ਕਹਾ ਕਰੈ ਬਪੁਰੀ ਖਿਲਾਵਨਹਾਰੋ ਜਾਨੈ ॥ 
Kāṯẖ kī puṯrī kahā karai bapurī kẖilāvanhāro jānai. 
What can the poor wooden puppet do? The Master Puppeteer knows everything. 

ਜੈਸਾ ਭੇਖੁ ਕਰਾਵੈ ਬਾਜੀਗਰੁ ਓਹੁ ਤੈਸੋ ਹੀ ਸਾਜੁ ਆਨੈ ॥੩॥ 
Jaisā bẖekẖ karāvai bājīgar oh ṯaiso hī sāj ānai. ||3|| 
As the Puppeteer dresses the puppet, so is the role the puppet plays. ||3|| 

ਅਨਿਕ ਕੋਠਰੀ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਭਾਤਿ ਕਰੀਆ ਆਪਿ ਹੋਆ ਰਖਵਾਰਾ ॥ 
Anik koṯẖrī bahuṯ bẖāṯ karī▫ā āp ho▫ā rakẖvārā. 
The Lord has created the various chambers of assorted descriptions, and He Himself protects them. 

ਜੈਸੇ ਮਹਲਿ ਰਾਖੈ ਤੈਸੈ ਰਹਨਾ ਕਿਆ ਇਹੁ ਕਰੈ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੪॥ 
Jaise mahal rākẖai ṯaisai rahnā ki▫ā ih karai bicẖārā. ||4|| 
As is that vessel in which the Lord places the soul, so does it dwell. What can this poor being do? ||4|| 

ਜਿਨਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋਈ ਜਾਨੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਇਹ ਸਭ ਬਿਧਿ ਸਾਜੀ ॥ 
Jin kicẖẖ kī▫ā so▫ī jānai jin ih sabẖ biḏẖ sājī. 
The One who created the thing, understands it; He has fashioned all of this. 

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਕਾਜੀ ॥੫॥੫॥੧੨੬॥ 
Kaho Nānak aprampar su▫āmī kīmaṯ apune kājī. ||5||5||126|| 
Says Nanak, the Lord and Master is Infinite; He alone understands the value of His Creation. ||5||5||126||​
Note, the second line of line ||4|| is translated differently by Bhai Manmohan Singh: "As is the mansion, wherein the Lord places the mortal, in the likewise he abides. what can this poor mortal do?"


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## Yuno (Jun 30, 2018)

Ishna said:


> Are you a kind of Vaishnava?  You seem to be expressing ideas you might find in their teachings, unless I'm mistaken.  This is some info from a Gaudiya Vaishnava website...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess you misunderstood or I am not getting your point. I do not know nothing about vaishnav thinking, neither do I care if it is present on any website.
I simply wondered while focussing on naam last time that all is one, one here stands for god and one is all. I cleared that I can not explain it fully but I would try now.
What I came to realize was everything that exists is same in a way, a single focus of energy. And I had a feeling that either I focus on just naam "Waheguru" or everything present around me ,it is kinda similar and enjoy the melody of it. 
And thank you so very much for shabad.


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## Ishna (Jun 30, 2018)

Yuno said:


> I guess you misunderstood or I am not getting your point. I do not know nothing about vaishnav thinking, neither do I care if it is present on any website.
> I simply wondered while focussing on naam last time that all is one, one here stands for god and one is all. I cleared that I can not explain it fully but I would try now.
> What I came to realize was everything that exists is same in a way, a single focus of energy. And I had a feeling that either I focus on just naam "Waheguru" or everything present around me ,it is kinda similar and enjoy the melody of it.
> And thank you so very much for shabad.



The misunderstanding is entirely mine and you've cleared it up for me now, thank you!  Lovely post


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## Sikhilove (Jun 30, 2018)

Ishna said:


> Can you share some Gurbani that illustrates the idea of the God wishing to share discoveries with another, or indeed, some Gurbani that supports the idea that there is anything other than God, please?



I never said theres nothing other than God. I said that God discovered Himself to be Truth- its what He always was and always will be. Likewise us


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## Harry Haller (Jun 30, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> I never said theres nothing other than God. I said that God discovered Himself to be Truth- its what He always was and always will be. Likewise us



nope that does not hold, if you discover something about yourself, you are not the same as you were before the discovery, your not making sense, sorry


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## Sikhilove (Jun 30, 2018)

sukhsingh said:


> I'm really unsure what to make of this. I totally appreciate your devotion. But personally I think logic and truth go hand in hand.. I don't believe in the idea that the divine is beyond comprehension and that somehow the application of logic is at odds with understanding, finding the divine.. In fact I believe in quite the opposite. Personally I believe that sikhi does something that no other philosophical tradition does.. It provides a clear framework to understand the divine in a logical way.. It focuses on 'sat', that which is true.. Throughout gurbani intellectual, philosophical arguments are addressed in a 'scientific' manner ..



I understand you. What I'm trying to say, is that when u apply the teachings, you discover what the Gurus speak about in Gurbani first hand. You feel it and experience it. That is beyond logic. You cannot explain nor describe the feeling. Unconditional Love is the key, its what Truth is; No Fear, No Enmity.

Yes people may think it sounds wishy washy and too flowery, but it is what it is.


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## Sikhilove (Jun 30, 2018)

Yuno said:


> I sure have em in meh but I just do not know em all yet.



Lol, plenty of time to find out


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## Sikhilove (Jun 30, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> nope that does not hold, if you discover something about yourself, you are not the same as you were before the discovery, your not making sense, sorry



^that makes no sense in this context, you're speaking from your worldly logic.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 30, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> ^that makes no sense in this context, you're speaking from your worldly logic.



in that case why bother having a philosophy forum if your going to be speaking in some sort of smurf logic, so everything you say is true and good provided we do not use wordly logic? oh well in that case, I completely accept that God went through many many changes and introspection, went through puberty, went to university, listened to Pink Floyd, and finally became the God we all know and love, ok ,no problem, could you preface all your posts with the phrase ' in smurf logic' so it does not get confused with that damn wordly logic where things have to add up and make sense.


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## Ishna (Jun 30, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> I never said theres nothing other than God. I said that God discovered Himself to be Truth- its what He always was and always will be. Likewise us



You literally did say it:  Here's a quote from your post #67: "He set the khel going, out of a wish to share His discoveries with *another*."  It is this assertion that I'm looking for support from Gurbani.


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## Sikhilove (Jun 30, 2018)

Ishna said:


> You literally did say it:  Here's a quote from your post #67: "He set the khel going, out of a wish to share His discoveries with *another*."  It is this assertion that I'm looking for support from Gurbani.



Truth is Nothing. Its a pure unconditional love. Its our true state and is a frequency so high that mortals cant comprehend it. 

God realised who he really is. he discovered himself to be the Truth. He wished to share this with us, so we can realise our true nature. 

The discoveries are endless, but the Truth is One. It's totally illogical, beyond logic and beyond language. The discoveries Are truth, part of this perfection that is Truth- nothing is beyond the Truth and nothing is without it.


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## Ishna (Jun 30, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> Truth is Nothing. Its a pure unconditional love. Its our true state and is a frequency so high that mortals cant comprehend it.
> 
> God realised who he really is. he discovered himself to be the Truth. He wished to share this with us, so we can realise our true nature.
> 
> The discoveries are endless, but the Truth is One. It's totally illogical, beyond logic and beyond language. The discoveries Are truth, part of this perfection that is Truth- nothing is beyond the Truth and nothing is without it.



So, your opinion has no reference to Gurbani, then?


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## chetan sharma (Jun 30, 2018)

I think correct reply if I understand you question correctly..  friends Read at least first 9 pages of Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji.. it will clear your many questions.. Must read shlok fully in picture (page 8 SGGS)


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## Harry Haller (Jul 1, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> Truth is Nothing. Its a pure unconditional love. Its our true state and is a frequency so high that mortals cant comprehend it.


but you can right? you understand it completely and have come here to educate us?



Sikhilove said:


> God realised who he really is.


yeah, we've done this a few times, but you can't seem bothered to reply, perhaps you could extend your boundaries to justifying your ridiculous posts?



Sikhilove said:


> The discoveries are endless, but the Truth is One. It's totally illogical, beyond logic and beyond language. The discoveries Are truth, part of this perfection that is Truth- nothing is beyond the Truth and nothing is without it.


do you communicate like this all the time? your not really answering questions, are you making it up as you go along?

have you been taking lessons from Brian?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 1, 2018)

Ishna said:


> So, your opinion has no reference to Gurbani, then?


no of course not, our friend here worships a living Guru as she has posted references to his website many many many times, I think its one of those where you get a free BBQ cutlery set with every conversion


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## Yuno (Jul 1, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> I think its one of those where you get a free BBQ cutlery set with every conversion


Oh Man... is that set really worth so much that a person is being driven by it?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 1, 2018)

Yuno said:


> Oh Man... is that set really worth so much that a person is being driven by it?



well they dish them out by the item, once you get most of the set, you do get quite driven to complete it, they leave the big fork to last you see


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## Sikhilove (Jul 2, 2018)

Ishna said:


> So, your opinion has no reference to Gurbani, then?



Instead of asking for references, why not Read and understand Gurbani yourself? That's the best way to learn


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## Sikhilove (Jul 2, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> no of course not, our friend here worships a living Guru as she has posted references to his website many many many times, I think its one of those where you get a free BBQ cutlery set with every conversion



I never said i worshipped the guy on that site my friend. I said that alot of the writings on there were good. The ones that were in line with Gurbani. 


You seem to love drama and complication so sorry to burst that little bubble for you.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 2, 2018)

I want a free BBQ cutlery set too. Which site is it?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 2, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> I never said i worshipped the guy on that site my friend. I said that alot of the writings on there were good. The ones that were in line with Gurbani.
> 
> 
> You seem to love drama and complication so sorry to burst that little bubble for you.



fair point, my bubble is burst,

to change the subject completely, that's twice now, if you can understand that, I will be impressed


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## Ishna (Jul 2, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> Instead of asking for references, why not Read and understand Gurbani yourself? That's the best way to learn



But I do study Gurbani, and I haven't seen support there for the ideas you posted earlier. That's why I'm asking you to show me. Maybe I missed something, maybe it's your own conjecture. Which is fine, we all come to our own conclusions reading Gurbani. But I'd like to see where you get to that point from Gurbani.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 4, 2018)

Sikhilove said:


> You seem to love drama and complication




well that would be my punjabi genes, all Punjabis love a good drama and complication!


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## Yuno (Aug 17, 2018)

Yuno: Why God could have created everything and why then when he did? Why not before that?


Harry Haller said:


> I have no viewpoint on it as it is not relevant to me, there are many questions that one could answer, tell me what benefit the answer has to you?
> 
> Actually its impossible to answer, if God has been around forever, then time is irrelevant, I could say God did it a few years after God came on the scene, but God has always been on the scene, so your asking a human being an impossible question that only a God could answer, I am not a God unfortunately, but there are a few on this site that think they are, they could give you answer



I still find it really difficult to not seek the truth about *why god created everything? *I keep on thinking about it.
I humbly request for help to guide me what should I do?


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## Harry Haller (Aug 17, 2018)

Yuno said:


> Yuno: Why God could have created everything and why then when he did? Why not before that?
> 
> 
> I still find it really difficult to not seek the truth about *why god created everything? *I keep on thinking about it.
> I humbly request for help to guide me what should I do?



Well all I can do is give you a humble answer, 

someone asked a spanish guitarist why he played so fast, his answer was, 'because i can'


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## Yuno (Aug 19, 2018)

Yuno said:


> *I humbly request for help to guide me what should I do?*


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## Harry Haller (Aug 19, 2018)

Yuno said:


> Yuno: Why God could have created everything and why then when he did? Why not before that?
> 
> 
> I still find it really difficult to not seek the truth about *why god created everything? *I keep on thinking about it.
> I humbly request for help to guide me what should I do?



I went though a phase where I found it really difficult not to eat cheese, I kept thinking about, in the end, I just ate cheese till I got sick of it, so I guess you have to keep seeking till your sick of it, however, find your own cheese, don't eat someone else's, you might not like the taste, only you know you own tastes......


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## Yuno (Aug 19, 2018)

Harry Haller said:


> I went though a phase where I found it really difficult not to eat cheese, I kept thinking about, in the end, I just ate cheese till I got sick of it, so I guess you have to keep seeking till your sick of it, however, find your own cheese, don't eat someone else's, you might not like the taste, only you know you own tastes......


Gotchya, thank you dude.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Mar 9, 2022)

Harry Haller said:


> I went though a phase where I found it really difficult not to eat cheese



my problem every time i want to go vegan


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## swarn bains (Mar 19, 2022)

the soul does not separate from God. God is invisible to beings through soul. the soul is God


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