# Meat Issue Solved



## stupidjassi (Apr 24, 2008)

ABwiKAw kw kuTw bkrw Kwxw ]
      abh*aa*kh*i**aa* k*aa* k*u*t(h)*aa* bakar*aa* kh*aa*n*aa* ||
 _They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,_
OK So i think i have finally solved MEAT ISSUE Mystery.

Look at the above line at Page No. 472. IT Clearly says 'Abakhiya Da Kutha' . Hence its clear that the meaning of  word  'Kutha'  is *NOT* meat but HALAL/Kosher ,which is one of the 4 cardinal sins. 

So In those times (Guru ji`s time)  the word Kutha means Kosher/Halal.

So Finally after thourought analysis ,from my side Meat is allowed unless its HALAL or Kosher or prepared by any ritual .

Thanks
Meditation Naam Simran


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## spnadmin (Apr 24, 2008)

stupidjassi ji

You know, you are really amazing at solving these unique problems in Gurbani. First the 10 hermits and now this.

Thanks


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## pk70 (Apr 24, 2008)

*please Read The Whole Shabad Before Reaching  To Any  Conclusion!!!!*


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## spnadmin (Apr 24, 2008)

oops! And sorry for jumping to conclusions AGAIN.

But now I have looked and I think stupidjassi ji was only referring the meaning of one word. 

_Look at the above line at Page No. 472. IT Clearly says 'Abakhiya Da Kutha' . Hence its clear that the meaning of word 'Kutha' is *NOT* meat but HALAL/Kosher ,which is one of the 4 cardinal sins. _


He doesn't seem to be commenting on the meaning of the shabad. That was my impression only. Just the meaning of the word. The shabad seems to speaking about moral corruption and spiritual hypocrisy.  



ਮਃ ੧ ॥ 
ma 1 ||
First Mehl:

 17    ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜ ॥ 
maanas khaanae karehi nivaaj ||
The man-eaters say their prayers.

 ਛੁਰੀ ਵਗਾਇਨਿ ਤਿਨ ਗਲਿ ਤਾਗ ॥ 
shhuree vagaaein thin gal thaag ||
Those who wield the knife wear the sacred thread around their necks.

ਤਿਨ ਘਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਪੂਰਹਿ ਨਾਦ ॥ 
thin ghar brehaman poorehi naadh ||
In their homes, the Brahmins sound the conch.

ਉਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਭਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਓਈ ਸਾਦ ॥ 
ounhaa bh aavehi ouee saadh ||
They too have the same taste.


 ਕੂੜੀ ਰਾਸਿ ਕੂੜਾ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥ 
koorree raas koorraa vaapaar ||
False is their capital, and false is their trade.

 ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥ 
koorr bol karehi aahaar ||
Speaking falsehood, they take their food.


 ਸਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕਾ ਡੇਰਾ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ 
saram dhharam kaa ddaeraa dhoor ||
The home of modesty and Dharma is far from them.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕੂੜੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥ 
naanak koorr rehiaa bharapoor ||
O Nanak, they are totally permeated with falsehood.

 ਮਥੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਤੇੜਿ ਧੋਤੀ ਕਖਾਈ ॥ 
mathhai ttikaa thaerr dhhothee kakhaaee ||
The sacred marks are on their foreheads, and the saffron loin-cloths are around their waists;


 ਹਥਿ ਛੁਰੀ ਜਗਤ ਕਾਸਾਈ ॥ 
hathh shhuree jagath kaasaaee ||
in their hands they hold the knives - they are the butchers of the world!



 ਨੀਲ ਵਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਰਿ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ 
neel vasathr pehir hovehi paravaan ||
Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers.


ਮਲੇਛ ਧਾਨੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ॥ 
malaeshh dhhaan lae poojehi puraan ||
Accepting bread from the Muslim rulers, they still worship the Puraanas.

ਅਭਾਖਿਆ ਕਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਬਕਰਾ ਖਾਣਾ ॥ 
abhaakhiaa kaa kuthaa bakaraa khaanaa ||
They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,

 ਚਉਕੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ 
choukae oupar kisai n jaanaa ||
but they do not allow anyone else to enter their kitchen areas.

ਦੇ ਕੈ ਚਉਕਾ ਕਢੀ ਕਾਰ ॥ 
dhae kai choukaa kadtee kaar ||
They draw lines around them, plastering the ground with cow-dung.

 ਉਪਰਿ ਆਇ ਬੈਠੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ॥ 
oupar aae baithae koorriaar ||
The false come and sit within them.

 ਮਤੁ ਭਿਟੈ ਵੇ ਮਤੁ ਭਿਟੈ ॥ਇਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਅਸਾਡਾ ਫਿਟੈ ॥ 
math bhittai vae math bhittai || eihu ann asaaddaa fittai ||
They cry out, ""Do not touch our food, or it will be polluted!""

ਤਨਿ ਫਿਟੈ ਫੇੜ ਕਰੇਨਿ ॥ 
than fittai faerr karaen ||
But with their polluted bodies, they commit evil deeds.

ਮਨਿ ਜੂਠੈ ਚੁਲੀ ਭਰੇਨਿ ॥ 
man joothai chulee bharaen ||
With filthy minds, they try to cleanse their mouths.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥ 
kahu naanak sach dhhiaaeeai ||
Says Nanak, meditate on the True Lord.

ਸੁਚਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਾ ਸਚੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੨॥ 
such hovai thaa sach paaeeai ||2||
If you are pure, you will obtain the True Lord. ||2||


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## pk70 (Apr 24, 2008)

Sorry aad0002 ji
It was addressed  to stupidDJassi, so there is nothing wrong on your part.


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## pk70 (Apr 24, 2008)

*aad0002 ji

Guru sahib in this Shabad doent say to eat or not eat meat. It is  all about A Brahmin who does different things like eating Halal, thinking he the one who is pure. In last Vaak, Guru ji concludes only by meditating on HIM leads to purity not the hypocrisy. 
*


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## spnadmin (Apr 24, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *aad0002 ji
> 
> Guru sahib in this Shabad doent say to eat or not eat meat. It is  all about A Brahmin who does different things like eating Halal, thinking he the one who is pure. In last Vaak, Guru ji concludes only by meditating on HIM leads to purity not the hypocrisy.
> *



Veer ji,

Yes I agree that it is not about eating or not eating meat. My question was, is Guruji talking about hypocrisy (versus meditating on HIM). Or is the shabad abbout meditating on Him. Trying to rephrase what I was saying. :2:

I am really sorry to be misunderstanding you if I am. Sometimes I miss the point.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 25, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *aad0002 ji*
> 
> *Guru sahib in this Shabad doent say to eat or not eat meat. It is all about A Brahmin who does different things like eating Halal, thinking he the one who is pure. In last Vaak, Guru ji concludes only by meditating on HIM leads to purity not the hypocrisy. *


 
Exactly PK Bhen Ji.
The SGGS is about the MANN/SPIRITUAL...Mann jeeteh JAGJEET.
In fact most of Gurbani is related to the Mann/spiritual aspect....the PHYSICAL BODY is seldom touched as it is self explanatory/common sense..even  a baby will cry out to be fed when his physical stomach is empty....bathing/ceanliness/etc are all commonsense..BUT Most of us are not even aware when our MANN is HUNGRY...90% of people feed the body/fast the body/bathe the body/torture the body/..etc etc etc to gain "Spiritual benefit" !!! which is not as per Gurmatt...the Important aspect is MANN..which cannot be fed with atta/rice/jalebis/...cannot be "washed" in sarovars and tiraths....cannot be cleansed/purified by fasting/torturing/standing on one leg or upside down etc etc.
THUS Gurbani is clear that BODY DIET....BODY "CASTES"....BODY HONOURS etc etc are NOT going to be of any help in the SPIRITUAL PLANE..there only NAAM JAPP/humility/LOVE/caring for others, sewa..etc will be of help..Hence Gurbani touches on thsoe aspects.

The conclusion reached by Stupid Jassi is thus absolutley correct - Gurmatt and Gurbani is not the least about what you eat or dont eat..clearly stated..DONT EAT what causes your body/mann PAIN and distress, stops your naam japp progress. What GURBANI does FORBID..and VERY CLEARLY is...EXCESSIVE LOVE/INDULGENCE....in Gold/riches/beautiful women/horses/elephants/ ( modern day read BMW/Jaguars/Mercedes/Feraris)palaces/mansions/soft beds/scents/..SWEETMEATS !!!  ( Jalebis, laddoos, barfis/gulab jamuns...) and last of all MEAT. Read Sri Raag Mh Pehla on pages 15 onwards of SGGS. Any self respecting DOCTOR/PSYchtarist will also ADVISE his patients exactly this....look at the DIABETIC/OBESE rates today...look at the greedy for money cheaters/politicians today... Can a person with  a Diseased Body/Mind ever hope to reach GOD?? SEHAJ ....CONTROL..is vital to achieve this balance and total inner peace resulting in nama japping...

Warmest regards
Gyani jarnail Singh


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## spnadmin (Apr 25, 2008)

Jios, Gyani, pk70 and stupidjassi: 

Can we stipulate that we all agree with this statement?

*The conclusion reached by Stupid Jassi is thus absolutley correct - Gurmatt and Gurbani is not the least about what you eat or dont eat.

*Then I will stop asking the same question different ways.


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## pk70 (Apr 25, 2008)

*Giani Jarnail Singh Dhillon ji,
Kindly dont use this Shabad for your own CHASKA, Guru ji is addressing to a Brahmin who eats Halal meat with Muslim rulers(which was/is not accepted in Hinduism, considered bad) and then claims to be pure one. It is direct hit only at his hypocrisy and need for The Truth, The Lord. Where ever you find mention of meat, for Gods sake dont twist the meaning of it. Eating or not eating meat is not even issue of this very Shabad. I wonder, if you want to support what you have said, why dont you quote other Guru Shabad( there are) where Guru ji directly discusses it. Read carefully before concluding any special meaning to support fulfillment of personal urges.*


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## stupidjassi (Apr 25, 2008)

First of all thanks Giani Janail sing ji and *aad0002* ji for your reply and thanks pk70 also for contradicting my points.
I again wanna repeat 
-> Guru Nanak dev ji said 'fool wrange over flesh' , so no HardLiners please
-> Same thing going on with 5k`s (KESH or KESKI) - I dont understand how person can cover their hair for rest of their life, they have to leave them open sometime at least , that`s not healthy either.
NOTE:As fat as other 4 k`s are concern , according to my point of view they are OK. e.g. You shouldn`t leave kirpan for even a sec coz that could be the time when you need it.
anyways just to bring the isssue.

BAck to Meat eating: I personally avoid it coz its not healthy outside , and i dont know how to cook at home  . But Whatever i found in gurbani i think Guru ji`s are not making any hard rules but just showing the importance of Naam. ( Same in the whole shabad - Asa di vaar , which we used for demostration )

So basically we might be wasting our time discussing meat issue, which we can use in simran , that will provide more output . But at last i dont wanna say sikh should be vegitarian . 

thanks
stupidjassi




pk70 said:


> *Giani Jarnail Singh Dhillon ji,
> Kindly dont use this Shabad for your own CHASKA, Guru ji is addressing to a Brahmin who eats Halal meat with Muslim rulers(which was/is not accepted in Hinduism, considered bad) and then claims to be pure one. It is direct hit only at his hypocrisy and need for The Truth, The Lord. Where ever you find mention of meat, for Gods sake dont twist the meaning of it. Eating or not eating meat is not even issue of this very Shabad. I wonder, if you want to support what you have said, why dont you quote other Guru Shabad( there are) where Guru ji directly discusses it. Read carefully before concluding any special meaning to support fulfillment of personal urges.*


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## pk70 (Apr 25, 2008)

BAck to Meat eating: I personally avoid it coz its not healthy outside , and i dont know how to cook at home 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 . But Whatever i found in gurbani i think Guru ji`s are not making any hard rules but just showing the importance of Naam. ( Same in the whole shabad - Asa di vaar , which we used for demostration )

So basically we might be wasting our time discussing meat issue, which we can use in simran , that will provide more output . But at last i dont wanna say sikh should be vegitarian . 

thanks
stupidjassi

*Doubtless, I agree. I also feel the  same way bout about covering hair. Rituals take over reasoning, though sad it is. I cannot eat meat because, chicken, fish and all other creatures are visualized in my mind whenever meat eating is discussed. So I dont even think about it. Guru ji puts reasoning in us, we just make it stone like rule.*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 26, 2008)

Guru Piayaree PK70 Ji,
gurfateh.

EVERY SINGLE SHABAD in SGGS that remotely touches on this "meat controversy" has been dealt with in the Par excellent Article by Randip Singh on this Forum..under title: ONLY FOOLS WRANGLE OVER MEAT.
Unlike many anti-meat supporters who only quote one tuk ( or two) this article goes INDEPTH and quotes entire shabds.

Its not  aquestion of "MY CHASKA" or your "dislike"...its  matter of true and faithful interpretation of GURBANI....not twisted or mistranslated to skewed and vested interests.

At the time SGGS was written...there were ONLY HINDUS/BRAHMINS and MUSLIMS...Sikhs were being "evolved"....and only completed their evolution in /1699/ and post 1708. Thus ALL GURBANI addresses SADHUS, YOGIS, BRAHMINS, MUSLIMS, PANDITS....BUT it is FOR ALL ( SIKHS TOO )
KABIR addresses ALL his banis to MUSLIMS..BRAHMINS..PANDITS..and THUGGHS of BENARES. There are many many MORE such "SIKH THUGGHS" in AMRITSAR....does any GURBANI TUK address these Jathedars/pujarees/granthis/gyanis/ragis ??? Guur nanak ji addressed the shabad..OOJAL keha chilkanna...the Shining white dressing of Sajjan thuggh.... so can we RESTRICT that shabad as ONLY to "Sajjan thuggh" and NOT a modern SIKH "Sajjan thuggh in shining hwite chola and white gol puggh...doing exactly the same things as Sajjan thuggh did ???

GURBANI IS UNIVERSAL..and TIMELESS...NOT "restricted" or "time bound".
Today the SGGS Gurbani is Paraksh in SIKH GURDWARAS....it would be pointless saying..NO JI..Guru ji is talking about Brahmins..I am SIKH..so EXEMPTED !!! OR Kbair Ji is talking about Hajj/ritualised slaughter of chickens..so no sweat as I am SIKH..not Muslim....Sheikh Farid is asking about not attending Mosque..why i bother as I am a SIKH..and Gurdwara is NOT mentioned anywhere...

Regards

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 26, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *Giani Jarnail Singh Dhillon ji,*
> *Kindly dont use this Shabad for your own CHASKA, Guru ji is addressing to a Brahmin who eats Halal meat with Muslim rulers(which was/is not accepted in Hinduism, considered bad) and then claims to be pure one. It is direct hit only at his hypocrisy and need for The Truth, The Lord. Where ever you find mention of meat, for Gods sake dont twist the meaning of it. Eating or not eating meat is not even issue of this very Shabad. I wonder, if you want to support what you have said, why dont you quote other Guru Shabad( there are) where Guru ji directly discusses it. Read carefully before concluding any special meaning to support fulfillment of personal urges.*


Guru Piayario Jio,
1. Its never a matter of ones own chaska/dislike.
2. The SRM was arrived at by venerable notables....people ike Bhai kahn Singh nabha and the like who were much higher/Better qualified/more advanced/Real GURMUKHS.... than me and over 30 years of world wide discussions and submissions... AND THE SRM CLEALRY STATES SIKH/GURMATT VIEW ON MEAT EATING.
3. TWO people did walk out of the SRM Committee - and they Based their objections to MEAT on their OWN PERSONAL VIEWS - these two were Bhai Sahib bhai Randhir Singh ji and Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurbachan Singh Khalsa. Today only the followers of these two - AKJ and Damdmai taksaal stick to an ANTI-MEAT rehat.
4. Sikhism/Gurmatt/Gurbani is NOT at all about DIET. This is a personal choice. For the record i am also not meat eating....and also AVOID  OVER INDULGENCE in all Ladoos, Jalebis barfis gulab jamuns as GURU NANAK JI advised in SRI RAAG mh 1 Page 15. Thus i remain perfectly HEALTHY and FIT.
BUT i cannot let my PERSONAL views/choices override what Gurbani says...thus Sikhi/Gurmatt is NOT VEGETARIAN/NOT ANTI-MEAT.
5. What is your take on the SRI RAAG mh 1 on page 15 of SGGS on the LIST of things Guru Ji advises NOT to overindulge ?? Any reason why ONLY MEAT is picked up by all and sundry and not a single word about all the REST ??? IF Meat can be banned why NOT laddoos jalebis ??
6/ I will give you the Simple answer..Because MEAT is a RITUALISED SLAUGHTER/OFFERING/has Religious connotations in hinduism/Jewish/islam/christian/buddhist/jains/ etc etc...BUT LADDOOS JALEBIS etc are FREE of thsi religious connotation....BUT to GURU JI overindulgence in any and ALL of these is BAD. So arent we "sikhs" PICKING and CHOOSING ??

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## pk70 (Apr 26, 2008)

*Giani Jarnail singh Dhillon Ji*

*With due respect, I have to point out again that you just cannot say that in that Shabad, Guru ji is talking about eating or not eating meat. Shabad, though addressed to a Brahmin to expose his hypocrisy; it also doesn’t mean, as you pointed out correctly, it  is not only for a Brahmin but for others too  strictly in context of hypocrisy. What you are missing here is use of this particular shabad to justify meat eating as stupidDjassi hinted initially. My concern is that use the Shabad in its correct context. None of any vaak of this shabad takes on meat eating issue.*
*Whatever you have put in your new post on this thread earlier has proved unequivocally a link to meat eating debate.  In that quote, if I am not mistaken, Guru ji, indeed, addresses on meat eating because in that very  Shabad , very explicitly Guru ji asks question”  what is the difference of meat or “mustard plants, both have life” Indeed, quote that shabad in meat eating debate not this one. There is point that supports your views, definitely not in this shabad.
* 
 [/FONT]


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Apr 27, 2008)

Dear All,

Guru ji clearly say that 
"Maas maas kar moorakh jhagrey, Gyi-aan Dhi-aan nahi janeya"

Who are those fools as per Guru ji. "Those who have no Knowledge of Gyi-aan and Dhi-aan". Until the sangat comes to know what is Gyi-aan and Dhi-aan one is not in a position to answer this question. There is a high degree of hypocrisy among Sikhs and they are quick to point at Brahmins or Vaishvanites for their short comings.

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, you are one of the esteemed supporters of Randip's essay 


> "EVERY SINGLE SHABAD in SGGS that remotely touches on this "meat controversy" has been dealt with in the Par excellent Article by Randip Singh on this Forum..under title: ONLY FOOLS WRANGLE OVER MEAT.
> Unlike many anti-meat supporters who only quote one tuk ( or two) this article goes INDEPTH and quotes entire shabads."



This is a very big claim you have made "Par excellent Article". I request you to revisit the explainations/translations with a clear mind and then tell us if they are justified by your quote. You are qualified person on Gyi-aan. Can you throw light on the Gyi-aan that is being blindly ignored in the Essay. The very basis on which Guru Nanak Dev ji is calling the ignorant of such knowledge as fools.

I am presently preparing a reply for that Essay that will go to every forum to hopefully clear this mis-conception if Guru ji granted my wish.

Kind regards

ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## kds1980 (Apr 27, 2008)

ekmusafir ji

Gyani ji is a well respected member of SPN from past 4 years.What he has been writing about meat is his his own views which he is writing from begining.Randip singh's essay came much later
And to be honest Not even a single person has benn able to refute his views on this issue.So instead of branding each and every person as randip's supporter please try to refute
what Gyani ji is saying


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## pk70 (Apr 27, 2008)

Ek Musifir Ajnbi ji

*That is the essence of the Guru Vaak" maas maas kar murakh jhagre..", they do because they dont know really what is gyan and dhyan mean. 
The Vaak  stupidDjassi quoted has nothing to do with meat eating at all. If any one finds pro meat Vaak they can quote that; however, I still wonder why Guru ji calls meat eating a "chaska" in a shabad goes like this,  Icannot remember now" ete ras sreer ke..." In there ,meat eating is called one of Chaska, or about Lahore city where animals were killed in high numbers to fulfill meat urges? Will you give your views Guru message.
*


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## kds1980 (Apr 27, 2008)

pk70 said:


> Ek Musifir Ajnbi ji
> 
> *That is the essence of the Guru Vaak" maas maas kar murakh jhagre..", they do because they dont know really what is gyan and dhyan mean.
> The Vaak  stupidDjassi quoted has nothing to do with meat eating at all. If any one finds pro meat Vaak they can quote that; however, I still wonder why Guru ji calls meat eating a "chaska" in a shabad goes like this,  Icannot remember now" ete ras sreer ke..." In there ,meat eating is called one of Chaska, or about Lahore city where animals were killed in high numbers to fulfill meat urges? Will you give your views Guru message.
> *



Dear PK 70 ji

In the essay written by principal surjit singh ji I read that the line

Page 1412, Line 10
ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਜਹਰੁ ਕਹਰੁ ਸਵਾ ਪਹਰੁ ॥੨੭॥
लाहौर सहरु जहरु कहरु सवा पहरु ॥२७॥
Lāhour sahar jahar kahar savā pahar. ||27||
The city of *Lahore* suffered terrible destruction for four hours. ||27||

Is misinterpretted as It is related to invasion  and Not killing of killing of Animals because if it is related to killing of animals
then why Guru Amar das ji wrote

Page 1412, Line 11
ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰੁ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਦਾ ਘਰੁ ॥੨੮॥
लाहौर सहरु अम्रित सरु सिफती दा घरु ॥२८॥
Lāhour sahar amriṯ sar sifṯī ḏā gẖar. ||28||
The city of *Lahore* is a pool of ambrosial nectar, the home of praise. ||28||

Because Killing of Animals or Eating meat chaska was not at all stopped by the time Guru Amardas


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 28, 2008)

Guru Piayare KDS 1980 Jio,
Gurfateh.

I have also read that the slok quoted on panna 1412 line 10 is written by Guru nanak Ji and that it refers to the butchering of animals in the early hours of dawn....so that meat would be ready for markets...
BUT then Guru Amardass Ji added His own commentary in Line 11..
Declaring that the Lahore town of extreme cruelty/slaughter etc has become...Pool of ambroisal Nectar/home of Praise....WHY ??
Because of the BIRTH of BHAI JETHA JI ( later to become Guru Ramdass Ji )..... see how beautiful this is....the scorching heat of HELL on EARTH miraculously turns into the cooling pool of amrit and home of Praise by the BIRTH of such a Man of God like GURU RAMDASS JI.
On the surface these two sloks look "contradictive" to each other but explained as above..the logic is clear...GURBANI is never contradictory.
2. Chaska is related to "TONGUE"....taste buds...and EVERYTHING we eat is CHASKA. Hasnt anybody not heard a DAHI lover extolling the virtues of a heavenly thall of dahi freshly jammiah hoyah with a desi ghee prautha and achar ?? OR soembody else extolling the heavenly taste of DAAL MAKHNEE..Mahan dee Daal at Guru ramdass Ji Langgar in Amritsar * OUT OF THIS WORLD !!! some ones SAMOSAS...another famous restaurants burfee..soem halwaii's laddoos..churan laddoos..etc etc ALL are CHASKA..in fact this is called SWEET TOOTH...meaning a HABIT for sweets that is ADDICTIVE !! again this is CHASKA...
2. I find people are being very choosy...whereas GURU JI declares RAS MEETHA..and then Ras MAAS...everybody with an "agenda" is busy attacking the MEAT RASS" and completley IGNORING RASS MEETHA whcih comes FIRST !!! ALL the BABAS..the Taksalis..the AKJs..the derawadees..ALL united against MAAS RASS.....and completly ignoring MEETHA !!! how FUNNY ?? Can anybody quote even ONE BABA preaching AGAINT "MEETHA RASS CHASKA" ?? Who gave us the right to pick and choose ?? Guru Jis LIST has NINE RASS listed..we just PICK "ONE" ( Vegetariansim as a "vehicle to reach GOD" is Brahmin/Hindu/JAIN based baggage we carry - my opinion)>>> WHY JUST ONE RASS ???
PK JI please answer this..i would be pleased to hear your views.

3. Guur Ji has warned agianst MEETHA RASS getting the better of US..and just see how many Doctors warn us agisnt SUGAR....how many Gurdwaras are now being forced to proivide sugarless Chah due to the DIABETES/BP/OBESITY/etc etc of the SIKH Sangats !!!

I would be most pleased IF ALL SIKHS would get off this "anti-Meat" bandwagon and get cracking on spreading GURU JIs WARNING on ALL NINE Rass.... YES 9 of them and MEAT is LAST on the list meaning it is the LEAST important....ALL 9 rass are to do with our BODY..SREER and are DANGEROUS TO OUR HEALTH. Stop picking and choosing....ONCE we have all CONQUERED all the EIGHT preceeding rass then we can go on to vanquish the meat rass....victory belongs to the KHALSA.

Regards to all
Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Astroboy (Apr 28, 2008)

Chaska is related to "TONGUE"....taste buds...and EVERYTHING we eat is CHASKA. Hasnt anybody not heard a DAHI lover extolling the virtues of a heavenly thall of dahi freshly jammiah hoyah with a desi ghee prautha and achar ??


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## pk70 (Apr 28, 2008)

Quote"I have also read that the slok quoted on panna 1412 line 10 is written by Guru nanak Ji and that it refers to the butchering of animals in the early hours of dawn....so that meat would be ready for markets...
BUT then Guru Amardass Ji added His own commentary in Line 11..
Declaring that the Lahore town of extreme cruelty/slaughter etc has become...Pool of ambroisal Nectar/home of Praise....WHY ??
Because of the BIRTH of BHAI JETHA JI ( later to become Guru Ramdass Ji )..... see how beautiful this is....the scorching heat of HELL on EARTH miraculously turns into the cooling pool of amrit and home of Praise by the BIRTH of such a Man of God like GURU RAMDASS JI.
On the surface these two sloks look "contradictive" to each other but explained as above..the logic is clear...GURBANI is never contradictory.

2. Chaska is related to "TONGUE"....taste buds...and EVERYTHING we eat is CHASKA.
*    Gyani Jarnail singh ji,You are dead wrong here, chaska goes near to craving also known as tongue taste.  If one is hungry, there is need to eat, any kind of food goes to satisfy hunger. Visit the hungry; they take any thing to eat. Even meat doesn’t remain chaska in that situation.*

   Hasnt anybody not heard a DAHI lover extolling the virtues of a heavenly thall of dahi freshly jammiah hoyah with a desi ghee prautha and achar ?? OR soembody else extolling the heavenly taste of DAAL MAKHNEE..Mahan dee Daal at Guru ramdass Ji Langgar in Amritsar * OUT OF THIS WORLD !!! some ones SAMOSAS...another famous restaurants burfee..soem halwaii's laddoos..churan laddoos..etc etc ALL are CHASKA. in fact this is called SWEET TOOTH...meaning a HABIT for sweets that is ADDICTIVE !! again this is CHASKA...
*Yes, here again ,craving/chaska to satisfy tongue taste regardless of the form of food.  Shouldn't Sikhs pay attention to this point too?  Sure, they should.  From where have you got idea that all Sikhs  don't do that?*

2. I find people are being very choosy...whereas GURU JI declares RAS MEETHA..and then Ras MAAS...everybody with an "agenda" is busy attacking the MEAT RASS" and completley IGNORING RASS MEETHA whcih comes FIRST !!! ALL the BABAS..the Taksalis..the AKJs..the derawadees..ALL united against MAAS RASS.....and completly ignoring MEETHA !!! how FUNNY ?? Can anybody quote even ONE BABA preaching AGAINT "MEETHA RASS CHASKA" ?? Who gave us the right to pick and choose ?? Guru Jis LIST has NINE RASS listed..we just PICK "ONE" ( Vegetariansim as a "vehicle to reach GOD" is Brahmin/Hindu/JAIN based baggage we carry - my opinion)>>> WHY JUST ONE RASS ???
PK JI please answer this..i would be pleased to hear your views.

*First of all, respected Gyani ji, we were discussing about a shabad which has nothing to do with the issue” if eating meat is right or not”; however, it was given that color to that Guru Vaak by you. I just tried to tell you that use the Shabad that fits in your views.*
*Now coming back to MEETHA CHASKA” Guru Sahib also talks about that in Shabad” Baba hor khana khushi khuaar…” it covers all kind of food that is more attached to tongue taste than need of the body. Shabad has bigger application than this as you know, however, meetha chaska is covered though. Why didn’t I pick up? Well the topic was meat, so I was wondering if meat eating is also CHASKA? People crave meat, obviously that is Chaska, and people crave for other foods- sweet or sour- also fall in the same category. Is it Chaska, of course.  I am not one of those vegetarians as you pointed out, I don’t eat meat because it is hard for me to eat meat, I visualize innocent animals when I see meat. Where do I stand on this issue? When there is vegetarian food available in million forms then why to eat meat?  Why to go on slaughtering innocent animals just for chaska  If some one says it is Ok, I don’t say it is sin, if its OK for some, it is fine with me but for that we really do not need imaginary support. Just keep eating whatever you do. Why to question  vegetarians either? They may have same views for Vegetarian food as you have on meat eating. If they are the ones who question you on this issue, you are also acting in the same manner, what is the difference between them and you?

*3. gur Ji has warned agianst MEETHA RASS getting the better of US..and just see how many Doctors warn us agisnt SUGAR....how many Gurdwaras are now being forced to proivide sugarless Chah due to the DIABETES/BP/OBESITY/etc etc of the SIKH Sangats !!!
I would be most pleased IF ALL SIKHS would get off this "anti-Meat" bandwagon and get cracking on spreading GURU JIs WARNING on ALL NINE Rass.... YES 9 of them and MEAT is LAST on the list meaning it is the LEAST important
  Meat comes last because of rytham. There is no special reason for that though.
  To be vegetarian being a Sikh is a choice, I am still wondering what kind of bandwagon you are talking about. As per Guru ji teachings, idiots argue over meat because they do not know “gyan,dhyan”  Chaskas totally disapprear in that state of mind. 
  ....ALL 9 rass are to do with our BODY..SREER and are DANGEROUS TO OUR HEALTH. Stop picking and choosing...._ONCE we have all CONQUERED all the EIGHT preceeding rass then we can go on to vanquish the meat rass....victory belongs to the KHALSA._

*Why to wait? Why not start conquering all chaskas all together. That is what Guru ji says unlike you who say that first conquer other chaska before working on meat chaska. Victory belongs to all, not only to Khalsa. Believe me that very effort of yours will put you in the same bandwagon.*


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## pk70 (Apr 28, 2008)

kds1980 said:


> Dear PK 70 ji
> 
> In the essay written by principal surjit singh ji I read that the line  Page 1412, Line 10
> ਲਾਹੌਰਸਹਰੁਜਹਰੁਕਹਰੁ*ਸਵਾਪਹਰੁ*॥੨੭॥
> ...


 *Kds1980 Ji*
*There are two words used by Guru ji on 1442 in Vaak 10" Jehr and Kehr" if it were only about someone's attack, why "Jehr"  word is used? Obviously Guru ji qualifies "kehr" To me it seems Guru ji is  saying about slaughtering of animals.  There is another Guru Shabad that states" to feed one life, many lives are taken" I cannot remember, I shall post it for your information.  It all comes down to choice of living. People live the way they like.

*If you see  in this Guru Vaak“the home of praise” it is about people of the city indulged in Nam Simran, possibly Guru ji is hinting about change occurred over years as no resident  of Lahore was doing that during Guru Nanak.  If Guru Amardas Ji ‘s presence is referred in this Guru Vaak, it states also  the same idea. No contradiction exists as said by Giani Jarnail Singh ji.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Apr 28, 2008)

Pk70 ji,

People who live a life of denial cannot be convinced. Until they develop the understanding of " Gyi-aan and Dhi-aan " they cannot begin to realise what Guru ji telling us. The words *Jehr and Kehr are not *in their dictionery. 

The translation of the tuks provided by KDS is deplorable. It makes the tuk sound like a war time report. 

 Page 1412, Line 10
ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਜਹਰੁ ਕਹਰੁ ਸਵਾ ਪਹਰੁ ॥੨੭॥
लाहौर सहरु जहरु कहरु सवा पहरु ॥२७॥
Lāhour sahar jahar kahar savā pahar. ||27||
The city of *Lahore* suffered terrible destruction for four hours. ||27||

Page 1412, Line 11
ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰੁ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਦਾ ਘਰੁ ॥੨੮॥
लाहौर सहरु अम्रित सरु सिफती दा घरु ॥२८॥
Lāhour sahar amriṯ sar sifṯī ḏā gẖar. ||28||
The city of *Lahore* is a pool of ambrosial nectar, the home of praise. ||28||

In the first verse, Guru Nanak Dev ji has CURSED  the city of Lahore for the KEHAR (extreme level of Atrocities on animals) that is akin to jehar(poison) that do and shall for ever take place in the city of Lahore in the early hours of the Morning (instead of singing praises of the Lord). Whereas the verse by Guru Amardas ji comes about due to Guru ji's visit to Lahore where where the Sikh sangat expressed their grave concern over Guru Nanak Dev ji's comments. It  is thus that Guru Amardas has assured the Sangat that there shall be  a shehar of Amritsar which will be directly opposite to Lahore where only praise of the Lord will take place. Hence in this verse Guru Amardas has infact laid the foundations of the City of Amritsar. The house of Praise.

My sincere apollogies to the sangat for this error. What has been said by Guru Nanak Dev ji still stands correct today as per verse 27. Therefore verse 28 as has been translated is incorrect as Lahore Shehar has not become "the home of Praise". 


The sangat may be aware that there is also a similar curse on the city of Amritsar where Guru ................... was refused entry to Harimandir Sahib. Guru ji said "Amritsariae andar sadiae". Upon hearing this the ladies of Amritsar ran to Guru ji and begged forgiveness. Guru ji took mercy on them and said "Mai-aan rabb Rajai-aan". 

Coming to the issue of meat, if killing animals for food was acceptable to Guru Nanak Dev ji then why would Guru ji use the words Jehr and Kehr in verse 27.


ekmusafir_ajnabi


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## spnadmin (Apr 28, 2008)

It is a "war report" in a manner of speaking ...heh, heh... see this link ...the invaders ate fruit...
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji age 1412:SearchGurbani.com 

Of course at another level it is not a war report, and we can take this to mean that neither animals nor humans were the objects of slaughter, in a manner of speaking  of course..

No matter how the reading goes...

ਸਾਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਇਵੇਹੀ ਗਲੈ ॥੨੪॥ 
saadh naahee eivaehee galai ||24||
There is no joy in this. ||24||

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the point of the shabad.


ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥ 
jo tho praem khaelan kaa chaao ||
If you desire to play this game of love with Me,


 ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥ 
sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao ||
then step onto My Path with your head in hand.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 28, 2008)

Chaska...havent we all heard..Live to Eat and EAT to LIVE ? PK Ji I am aware of this. The POOR eat to LIVE..and those with Chaska LIVE to eat !! A poor man eating meat wouldnt be having chaska....and a Malik Bhago eating DAAL could be having CHASKA. Perfectly sensible.

Gurbani is for ALL...both meat eaters and non....so the ESSENTIAL point of Gurbani is CHASKA..CRAVING..ADDICTION to beyond CONTROL. Meat and non meat..SAAG or Non Saag is the Central point Gurbani stresses...its we with our own involutions and twistings that pick up on one or the other...pick and choose....we even go so far as to submit..that others dont have the GYAAN/DHYAAN that we have...just ebcasue the other oen eats what we abhor..and then we call them in denial..abhorrent creatures of Jehr Kehr ....
I humbly submit that Jehr Kehr is in EVERYONES DICTIONARY....those who eat meat and those who eat SAAG. You talk about animal cruelty...(jehr Kehr)...please read Guru nanak Jis shabad on GANNA( Sugar cane)..absolutley beautiful IMAGERY by Guur Ji....how the poor Ganna - sugar cane plant is PULLED up by its roots...its HEAD CHOPPED OFF..its FEET lopped off by sharp instruments...then TIED up in bundles...thrown upon transport and then taken to the Sugar Mill...and then PUSHED throught eh CRUEL MILL where its JUICES are DRAINED OUT....even its lifelss dead body is NOT SPARED..that is then BURNED in the FIRE on which its juice is BOILED to make Sugar !!!
WHY did GURU JI go so far to write such a moving Image filled shabad about a ..lifeless..vegetable ?? Just black out the words GANNA..and the entire shabad can be one Jehr Kehr image about an ANIMAL being used for FOOD...Surprisingly GURU JI NEVER WROTE a single shabad so GRAPHIC baout ANIMAL SLAUGHTER... why ?? Because we and all in thsoe times too..were already aware of how animals are slaughtered.... BUT EVEN TODAY many many millions still stuck in Time WARP idea thta.."PLANTS" are lower life Form..feel NO PAIN..DONT SUFFER..dont cry..dont scream..dont struggle....blah blah blah....THATS WHY GURU JI chose to write such a Graphic Shaabd about the PLANT SUGAR CANE !!!

The Real Message of Gurbani is FOOD IS FOOD...No Spiritual benefit is attached to any diet...Eat SPARINGLY what nature provides...Bhagat ji ahs said..Eat Khicchrree..Rice-daal Porridge...BUT can the entire 6 Billion people eat just khichhrree alone..is that a Practical solution..Do our Gurdawra Langgars ONLY seve Porridge and nothing else..Its just a POINTER by ONE Bhgat Ji..Guru ji gives OTHER POINTERS..many of them.. like for example in Sidh Ghost..the Yogis proudly informed Guru ji that they ONLY ate roots/fruits... GURU JI DIDNT even acknowledge/comment on this...pointer is that this is IRRELEVANT and not worth commenting..( ALL other questions comments answered by Guru Ji)...we just need the Gyaan and Dhyaan and get out of Denial. IMHO..the MEAT question HAS BEEN SETTLED as stupid Jssi ji has written...its of no importance at all.

Regards

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## kds1980 (Apr 29, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *Kds1980 Ji*
> *There are two words used by Guru ji on 1442 in Vaak 10" Jehr and Kehr" if it were only about someone's attack, why "Jehr"  word is used? Obviously Guru ji qualifies "kehr" To me it seems Guru ji is  saying about slaughtering of animals.  There is another Guru Shabad that states" to feed one life, many lives are taken" I cannot remember, I shall post it for your information.  It all comes down to choice of living. People live the way they like.
> 
> *If you see  in this Guru Vaak“the home of praise” it is about people of the city indulged in Nam Simran, possibly Guru ji is hinting about change occurred over years as no resident  of Lahore was doing that during Guru Nanak.  If Guru Amardas Ji ‘s presence is referred in this Guru Vaak, it states also  the same idea. No contradiction exists as said by Giani Jarnail Singh ji.



Dear pk 70 ji and gyani ji

You can Read interpretation of that tuk in following link

KAUN MAAS KAUN SAAG KHAVEY 16

Principal Surjit singh has written that through that tuk Guru Nanak Dev ji predicted destruction of lahore which was going to happen.

Even in mahan kosh kahan singh Nabha has written that after watching cruelty of  rulers on people in lahore Guru Nanak dev ji said that shalok  and after  That it is well known fact that in 1524 entire city of lahore was burnt down by forces of Babur.So Guru Nanak Dev ji warned people of lahore

And at the time of Guru amardas ji Gurbani was propagated in Lahore so Guru Amardas ji said that lahore is now city of amrit

My interpreatation may be not correct so I request to all those who read punjabi to read it themself.

But I found This translation. more upto mark


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 29, 2008)

Dear KDS Ji, Gurfateh.
There is nothing wrong in the translation you submit. Its widely accepted and may be the correct one....  the one i submitted has been held by quite a few scholars. Guru nanak Jis Babarvani is eyewittness account of the sacking of Saidpur Emnabaad..and Guru Ji was present in LAHORE in 1524 sacking by Babur. So its perfectly acceptable.
The important point to remember is that GURBANI is not "contradictory". What i am trying to put across is that many armchair "Gurbani gyaanidhyannis" will attempt to twist these tuks and say Gurbani is contradictory....One Guru Ji says this and the other says that...that si the point i am making.
Here is an entry from the Sikh encyclopaedia.....scroll down to Lahore 1524 and you see he says the same thing about this shabd as you have quoted Principal Surjit Singh Ji. Principal Sahib is one of the best Sikh missionary writers found today...logical and learned. I vist his site often.

Gyani jarnail Singh
*Babar's Invasion (1525 A.D)*





Babar was   soldier of fortune, founder of the  Mughal dynasty in India, diarist and poet, descending in the fifth  generation  from Timur, was born on 14 February 1483. In June 1494, he succeeded his  father, 'Umar Shaik , as ruler of Farghana, whose revenues supported  no more  than a few hundred cavalry. With this force of helmeted,  mailclad warriors, Babar began his career of conquest. He joined  in the family struggle for power,  thrice winning and thrice losing Samarkand, alternately master  of a kingdom or a wanderer through the hills. In 1504, he made  himself master of Kabul and so came in touch with India whose  wealth was a standing temptation. In 1517 and again in 1519,  he swept down the Afghan plateau into the plains of India.  He entered the Punjab in 1523 on the invitation of Daulat  Khan Lodhi, the governor of the province, and 'Alam Khan, an  uncle of Ibrahim Lodhi, the Delhi Sultan.  But, wars in his  home country however, compelled Babar to return so that  his final invasion was not begun until November 1525.
Babar's  army of 12,000 men was mostly undisciplined group of men who  wanted to loot the riches of India.  These 12,000 men, a tiny  army with which to attempt the conquest of Ibrahim Lodhi's realm,  first devasted Punjab.  Guru Nanak in his famous epic  named "Babarvani" describes the atrocities of Babar and  his men in Punjab.  
Babarvani  (Babar's command or sway) is how the four hymns by Guru Nanak  alluding to the invasions by Babar (1483-1530), are collectively  known in Sikh literature. The name is derived from the use of the  term in one of these hymns "Babarvani phiri gal kuiru na rot khai -Babar's command or sway has spread; even the princes go without food"  (GG, 417). Three of these hymns are in Asa measure at pages 360  and 417-18 of the standard recension of Guru Granth Sahib and the  fourth is in Tilang measure on pages 722-23.
In  his first invasion, Babar came as far as Peshawar. The following  year he crossed the Indus and, conquering Sialkot without  resistance, marched on Saidpur (now Eminabad, 15 km southeast of  Gujranwala in Pakistan) which suffered the worst fury of  the invading host. The town was taken by assault, the garrison  put to the sword and the inhabitants carried into captivity.  During his next invasion in 1524, Babar ransacked Lahore.  His final invasion was launched during the winter of 1525-26  and he became master of Delhi after his Victory at Panipat  on 21 April 1526.
Guru  Nanak was an eye-witness to the havoc created during these  invasions. Janam Sakhis mention that he himself was taken captive  at Saidpur. A little of his, outside of Babarwani hymns, indicates  that he may have been present in Lahore when the city was given  up to plunder. In six pithy words this line conveys,  "For a pahar and a quarter, i.e. for nearly four hours, the city  of Lahore remained subject to death and fury" (GG,1412).  The mention in one of the Babalvani hymns of the use of guns  by the Mughals against the Afghan defence relying mainly  upon their war - elephants may well be a reference to the historic  battle of Panipat which sealed the fate of the Afghan king,  Ibrahim Lodhi.
The  Sikh tradition strongly subscribes to a meeting in 1520 between  Guru Nanak and Babar during the latter's invasion of Saidpur,  now called Eminabad, in Gujranwala district of Pakistan. The  town was taken by assault, the garrison put to the sword and  the inhabitants carried into captivity. According to the  Puratan Janam Sakhi, Guru Nanak and Mardana, also among  the captives, were ordered to be taken to prison as slaves.  The Guru was given a load to carry and Mardana a horse to lead.  But Mir Khan, says the Janam Sakhi, saw that the Guru's  bundle was carried without any support and Mardana's horse  followed him without the reins. He reported this to Sultan  Babar who remarked, "If there was such a holy man here,  the town should not have been destroyed." The Janam Sakhi  continues, "Babar kissed his (Guru Nanak's) feet. He said,  'On the face of this fair one sees God himself.' Then all the  people, Hindus and Musalmans, began to make their salutations.  The king spoke again, 'O dervish, accept something'. The  Guru answered, 'I take nothing, but you must release all  the prisoners of Saidpur and restore their property to them'.  King Babar ordered, 'Those who are in detention be released and  their property be returned to them'. All the prisoners of Saidpur  were set at liberty" 
Babarvani  hymns are not a narrative of historical events like Guru Gobind Singh's Bachitra Natak, nor are they an indictment of Babar as his  Zafarnamah was that of Aurangzab. They are the outpourings of a  compassionate soul touched by scenes of human misery and by the cruelty  perpetrated by the invaders. The  sufferings of the people are rendered here in accents of intense power  and protest. The events are placed in the larger social and historical  perspective decline in moral standards must lead to chaos.  A corrupt political system must end in dissolution. Lure of power  divides men and violence unresisted tends to flourish It could not be  wished away by magic or sorcery Guru Nanak reiterated his faith in  the Almighty and in His justice. Yet so acute was his realization  of the distress of the people that he could not resist making the  complaint:  "When there was such suffering, such killing, such shrieking in pain,  did not Thou, O God, feel pity? Creator, Thou art the same for all!" 
The  people for Guru Nanak were the people as a whole, the Hindus and the  Muslims, the high-caste and the low-caste, soldiers and civilians,  men and women. These hymns are remarkable for their moral  structurs and poetical eloquence. Nowhere else in contemporary  literature are the issues in medieval Indian situation  comprehended with such clarity or presented in tones of greater  urgency.  In spite of his destructive role Babar is seen by  Guru Nanak to have been an unwitting instrument of the divine Will.  Because the Lodhi's had violated God's laws, they had to pay the  penalty. Babar descended from Kabul as God's chosen agent,  demonstrating the absolute authority of God and the retribution  which must follow defiance of His laws. Guru Nanak's commentary  on the events which he actually witnessed thus becomes a part of  the same universal message. God is absolute and no man may disobey.  His commands with impunity. Obey Him and receive freedom.  Disobey him and the result must inevitably be retribution,  a dire reckoning which brings suffering in this present life  and continued transmigration in the hereafter.  The hymn rendered in  free English verse reads: 
 Lord, Thou takest Khurasan under Thy wing,
but yielded India to the invader's wrath.
Yet thou takest no blame;
And sendest the Mughal as the messenger of death.
When there was such suffering, killing,
such shrieking in pain,
Didst not Thou, O God, feel pity ?
The  fourth Babarvani hymn is probably addressed to Bhal Lalo, one of  Guru Nanak's devotees living at Saidpur itself. It ends on a  prophetic note, alluding perhaps to the rise of Sher Khan, an Afghan  of Sur clan, who had already captured Bengal and Bihar, defeated  Babar's son and successor, Humayun, at Chausa on the Ganga in June  1539 (during the lifetime of Guru Nanak), and who finally drove the  Mughal king out of India in the following year. The hymn in Tilang  measure is, like the other three, an expression of Guru Nanak's  feeling of distress at the moral degradation of the people at the  imposition by the  mighty. It is a statement also of his belief in God's justice  and in the ultimate victory of good over evil. In an English rendering:
 "
As descendeth the Lord's word to me, so do I deliver
it unto you, O Lalo:

[Babar] leading a wedding-array of sin
hath descended from Kabul and 
demandeth by force the bride, O Lalo.
decency and righteousness have vanished, 
and falsehood struts abroad, O
Lalo.

Gone are the days of Qazis and Brahmans,
Satan now conducts the nuptials, O Lalo.

The Muslim women recite the Qur'an and
in distress remember their God, O Lalo.

Similar is the fate of Hindu women of
castes high and low, O Lalo.

They sing paeans of blood, O Nanak, 
and by blood, not saffron, ointment is made,
O Lalo.

In this city of corpses, Nanak
proclaimeth God's praises, and uttereth
this true saying:

The Lord who created men and put them
to their tasks watcheth them from 
His seclusion.

True is that Lord, true His verdict, 
and true is the justice He dealeth.

As her body's vesture is torn to shreds,
India shall remember my words.

In seventy-eight they come, in ninety 
seven shall depart; another man of
destiny shall arise.

Nanak pronounceth words of truth,
Truth he uttereth; truth the time 
calls for."
The  words Seventy-eight and ninetyseven" in the penultimate  line are interpreted as 1578 and 1597 of the Indian calendar,  corresponding  respectively with 1521 and 1540 which are the dates of Babar's invasion  and Humayun's dethronement by Sher Khan/Shah.  Though Babar's Tuzk,  or Memoirs, a work of high literary quality, gives many interesting  details of the campaigns and the events he was involved in and also  describes the Indian life and customs very minutely there is no  mention in these recollections that he met Guru Nanak. Nevertheless,  the possibility of such a meeting having taken place cannot be  ruled out. There are references in Guru Nanak's bans to Babars's  invasions. An open tragedy like the one that struck Saidpur moved him  profoundly and he described the sorrows of Indians-Hindus and  Muslims alike-in words of intense power and suffering.  Babar's army, in the words of Guru Nanak, was "the bridal  procession of sin." In fact, Indian literature of that period  records no more virile protest against the invading hordes than  do Guru Nanak's four hymns of Babarvani in the Guru Granth Sahib. 
Babar  died on 26 December 1530 at Agra. Several years later  his body was moved to its present grave in one of the gardens of Kabul.
Babar's ivasion and occupation of India impacted the life in India in all aspects.  His generals forced people to be converted to Islam, his Zamindar's and other influential people bestowed lands and property on the newly converted Muslims.  Babar himself became a _Ghazi_ which in Islamic terminology is a positive epitecht and it means "a muslim  who has killed a non-muslim", such a person is guaranteed heaven with "beautiful women, wine and rivers of honey."  Another thing to note is that Babar destroyed several Hindu temples all over Punjab, and UP. Reason being is because founder of islam, Mohammad had done the same thing when he attacked Meeca and destroyed its temple and idolized Kaba.  He made a pathway to kaaba using destroyed debree of the old temple, this tradition was continued by all the Mughal kings who  invaded Indian, including Humayun, Akbar, Jahangir, Shahjahan and Aurungzeb, they destroyed temples and converted them to mosques, even though it is not allowed in islam as muslims claim but Mohammad himself had done it so they followed their leader.  
The clash between Sikh and Islamic culture was inevitable and resulted in first small hostilities between Guru's followers starting with the Sixth Guru Guru Hargobind and later into full scale with Tenth Guru Guru Gobind Singh.
*BIBLIOGRAPHY* 
Copyright © *Harbans Singh *"The encyclopedia of Sikhism."


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Apr 29, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> It is a "war report" in a manner of speaking ...heh, heh... see this link ...the invaders ate fruit...
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji age 1412:SearchGurbani.com
> 
> Of course at another level it is not a war report, and we can take this to mean that neither animals nor humans were the objects of slaughter, in a manner of speaking  of course..
> ...



The wise need not be repeatedly reminded. There is usually an age at which one can be reformed. A sleeping person can be awaken but one who is pretending can be. But then there are some who will simply refuse to.

Kindly do not use verses in isolation from SGGS to look smart. This is Beadbi. At least use the entire tuk if absolutely necessary.

ਮਾਣੂ ਘਲੈ ਉਠੀ ਚਲੈ ॥ਸਾਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਇਵੇਹੀ ਗਲੈ  ॥੨੪॥
The mortals are sent into the world;  they arise and depart.There is no joy in this. ||24||



Humans are sent into this world to gain spiritual knowledge (Gyi-aan) so that they can mend their ways and find a path for liberation. If the mortal takes birth and departs without such knowledge then what is the joy in it. This is where we differ from animal kingdom. The thought of the animal is only limited to filling their belly and no more. If a human being who is being supported by several sacrifices of small organisms that give  life to our body, does the same then can he be different to the animal. If you have decided to follow Sikhism, the do not waste time in a life of pretense. 


 ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥ 
jo tho praem khaelan kaa chaao ||
If you desire to play this game of love with Me,

 ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥ 
sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao ||
then step onto My Path with your head in hand.

Are you ready for this? .


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## Randip Singh (Apr 29, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> oops! And sorry for jumping to conclusions AGAIN.
> 
> But now I have looked and I think stupidjassi ji was only referring the meaning of one word.
> 
> ...


 
Excellent analysysis. This shabad has less to do with meat and more about Hypocrasy.

Did you know that Brahmins who served their Muslim rulers actually ate Hala meat, just so they could "suck up" to them? There are some interesting history books on this.

Saying all this, this translation clears up one thing, i.e. Kutha (as per rehat Maryada) refers to ritual meat and not killed meat as some pro-veggie groups claim.

The meat issue in Sikhism controversial leaves this choice to the individual. If one traces the history of this issue one finds latter Hindu converts with Vashnavite tendencies pushing the vegetarian agenda.


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Apr 29, 2008)

kds1980 said:


> Dear pk 70 ji and gyani ji
> 
> You can Read interpretation of that tuk in following link
> 
> ...



ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ  ॥ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ  ਚੀਤੁ  ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਾ ਦਿਲਿ ਹਛੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ  ॥ਅਵਰਿ ਦਿਵਾਜੇ ਦੁਨੀ ਕੇ ਝੂਠੇ ਅਮਲ ਕਰੇਹੁ  ॥੧॥

Punjabi Translation by Prof Sahib Singh ji

ਜੇ ਜਾਮੇ ਨੂੰ ਲਹੂ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਵੇ, ਤਾਂ ਜਾਮਾ  ਪਲੀਤ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਤੇ ਨਮਾਜ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ), (ਪਰ) ਜੋ ਬੰਦੇ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਦਾ ਲਹੂ ਪੀਂਦੇ ਹਨ  (ਭਾਵ, ਧੱਕਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਹਰਾਮ ਦੀ ਕਮਾਈ ਖਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ) ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਮਨ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਪਾਕ (ਸਾਫ਼) ਰਹਿ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ  (ਤੇ ਪਲੀਤ ਮਨ ਨਾਲ ਨਮਾਜ਼ ਪੜ੍ਹੀ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਕਬੂਲ ਹੈ)? ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਰੱਬ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਮੂੰਹੋਂ ਸਾਫ਼ ਦਿਲ  ਨਾਲ ਲੈ, (ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ) ਹੋਰ ਕੰਮ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਵਾਲੇ ਵਿਖਾਵੇ ਹਨ। ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਤੁਸੀ ਕੂੜੇ ਕੰਮ ਹੀ ਕਰਦੇ  ਹੋ।੧।
Shalok, First Mehl:If one's clothes are stained with blood, the  garment becomes polluted.Those  who suck the blood of human beings-how can their consciousness be pure?O Nanak, recite the Name of God, with  heart-felt devotion. You enter other wordly doors and  practice false deeds.  ||1||


Who sucks human blood? Those that practice adharm. Those who use force on others. Those that practice unrighteousness. Those that lead a life of duality. Those that have not yet fully accepted our Gurus and are fully immersed in the pleasures of Maya. Those who do not practice Guru's instruction with heartfelt devotion. The human as well as the animal are both subjected to force. To carry out these acts is akin to drinking ones blood. On one side they pretend to be Gyaani (person of knowledge) like the Molvi. Todays Sikh is no different. This is all against the fundamental principles of "Dharam di Kirit".


Bani revolves in the bounds of "Dharam di Kirat, Naam Simran, and Wand ke Shako" any translation that does not comply with the above is what Guru Amardas ji, in Anand Sahib refer to as Kachi Bani. Bani that breaks the three fundamental principle of Sikhism as founded by Guru Nanak Dev ji.


If professor Surjit Singh has an incorrect understanding of Bani then are we to follow him like a sheep does another. People change theirviews and interpretation in exchange of fame.  Practicing adharm leads to the body becoming impure. It comes back as a  physical disease. (Dukh daru sukh rog bhaya, jaan sukh taam na hoe)


A wise one will read between the lines the message given by our Gurus. This ability is only comes about when one done heartfelt simran and by the blessings of our Gurus.  I am fully aware that the times are tough on all of us. It is not for all to benefit from the above and therefore I do not say more. One day when you wake up from this illusion one will begin to understand our Gurus message.


May our Gurus have mercy on all.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 29, 2008)

ekmusifir ajnabi ji,
gurfateh.

I look forward to reading the paper you are writing ( to rebutt the essay by Randip Singh ji - you mentioned it somewhere i forget right now... (Guru willing)..btw i do read all your missives...between the lines and over the lines as well as below the lines !!! True SIKHI is LEARNIG..un-learning..and RE-Learning...a continous process...

Regards

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## spnadmin (Apr 29, 2008)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> I look forward to reading the paper you are writing ( to rebutt the essay by Randip Singh ji - you mentioned it somewhere i forget right now... (Guru willing)..btw i do read all your missives...between the lines and over the lines as well as below the lines !!! True SIKHI is LEARNIG..un-learning..and RE-Learning...a continous process...
> 
> Regards
> 
> Gyani jarnail Singh



This is so true! In discussions like this one there is so much to re-discover. This thread is not the first place where this shabad was visited. The focus on using the hymnto direct behavior is on level of understanding. But in looking at the hymn again and again, there is something remarkable about it that shows two things: the great poetic vision of the Gurus is remarkable; they used poetry to teach us at several levels at once.


The first line is pretty powerful -- there is no "heart" without the Pir, the Husband Lord enshrined within. A person does not have to be a genius to figure out what he is supposed to do after reading this.

  ਸਭਨੀ ਘਟੀ ਸਹੁ ਵਸੈ ਸਹ ਬਿਨੁ ਘਟੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
sabhanee ghattee sahu vasai seh bin ghatt n koe ||
God the Cosmic Husband dwells within all hearts; without Him, there is no heart at all.


So what is the treasure we receive if we are virtuous. The next line explains that. 

  ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੯॥ 
naanak thae sohaaganee jinhaa guramukh paragatt hoe ||19||
O Nanak, the Gurmukhs are the happy, virtuous soul-brides; the Lord is revealed to them. ||19||

Now the ever-famous and ever-teaching part.  Guruji, saying the treasure will never be ours unless we get over ourselves and abandon the false path of pride, and ego. 

ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥ 
jo tho praem khaelan kaa chaao ||
If you desire to play this game of love with Me,


 ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥ 
sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao ||
then step onto My Path with your head in hand.


The idea is developed in the next lines. 

  ਇਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪੈਰੁ ਧਰੀਜੈ ॥ 
eith maarag pair dhhareejai ||
When you place your feet on this Path,

 ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਕਾਣਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥੨੦॥ 
sir dheejai kaan n keejai ||20||
give Me your head, and do not pay any attention to public opinion. ||20||


 ਨਾਲਿ ਕਿਰਾੜਾ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਕੂੜੈ ਕੂੜੀ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
naal kiraarraa dhosathee koorrai koorree paae ||
False is friendship with the false and greedy. False is its foundation.

Now the poetic genius comes in here. Who is this moollah? Whose death is Guruji talking about here? There are two ways to understand this. But coming after the earlier lines, what is Guru Nanak mean by Moollah and death. This is a metaphor. *Adding here: After reading what Giani has reported, the metaphor is a metaphor at 3 levels. Powerful.*

 ਮਰਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਮੂਲਿਆ ਆਵੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਥਾਇ ॥੨੧॥ 
maran n jaapai mooliaa aavai kithai thhaae ||21||
O Moollah, no one knows where death shall strike. ||21||
 

Next Guruji tells us -- this is the price you will pay if we do not walk on his path, give Him our heads. We have no "intelligence" no "wisdom" of our own. We will never find the path of righteousness without Him. Equipoise will never be ours and we will never find His truth. *Adding here again: Is Babar's lessons learned, a lesson for us?*

  ਗਿਆਨ ਹੀਣੰ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ 
giaan heenan agiaan poojaa ||
Without spiritual wisdom, the people worship ignorance.

 ਅੰਧ ਵਰਤਾਵਾ ਭਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨੨॥ 
andhh varathaavaa bhaao dhoojaa ||22||
They grope in the darkness, in the love of duality. ||22||


 
 ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥ 
gur bin giaan dhharam bin dhhiaan ||
Without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom; without Dharma, there is no meditation.

 
 ਸਚ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਾਖੀ ਮੂਲੋ ਨ ਬਾਕੀ ॥੨੩॥ 
sach bin saakhee moolo n baakee ||23||
Without Truth, there is no credit; without capital, there is no balance. ||23||

ਮਾਣੂ ਘਲੈ ਉਠੀ ਚਲੈ ॥ 
maanoo ghalai outhee chalai ||
The mortals are sent into the world; then, they arise and depart.

 ਸਾਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਇਵੇਹੀ ਗਲੈ ॥੨੪॥ 
saadh naahee eivaehee galai ||24||
There is no joy in this. ||24||

Now here is the part that made me think twice, three times, four times. What is Guru Nanak doing here? Is this about a Hindu god and a band of demons -- really? Is he telling a joke: If he is, then Hindus and monkeys and Hindu monkeys do not eat meat*. We can see from Giani's report that this could be a metaphor for Babar.* We can also see that Guru Nanak is using the story of Raam Chand to emphasize what he was saying earlier about this _ g*ur bin giaan dhharam bin dhhiaan || Without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom; without Dharma, there is no meditation.*_

and about this *s*_*aadh naahee eivaehee galai ||24|| There is no joy in this. ||24|*|

_ ਰਾਮੁ ਝੁਰੈ ਦਲ ਮੇਲਵੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਲੁ ਅਧਿਕਾਰ ॥ 
raam jhurai dhal maelavai anthar bal adhhikaar ||
Raam Chand, sad at heart, assembled his army and forces.

 
 ਬੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਸੈਨਾ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਜੁਝੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ 
banthar kee sainaa saeveeai man than jujh apaar ||
The army of monkeys was at his service; his mind and body became eager for war.

 
 ਸੀਤਾ ਲੈ ਗਇਆ ਦਹਸਿਰੋ ਲਛਮਣੁ ਮੂਓ ਸਰਾਪਿ ॥ 
seethaa lai gaeiaa dhehasiro lashhaman mooou saraap ||
Raawan captured his wife Sita, and Lachhman was cursed to die.

 
 ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪਿ ॥੨੫॥ 
naanak karathaa karanehaar kar vaekhai thhaap outhhaap ||25||
O Nanak, the Creator Lord is the Doer of all; He watches over all, and destroys what He has created. ||25|| *The Lord destroys what He has created. This is an important clue. *

 
 ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਝੂਰੈ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੀਤਾ ਲਛਮਣ ਜੋਗੁ ॥ 
man mehi jhoorai raamachandh seethaa lashhaman jog ||
In his mind, Raam Chand mourned for Sita and Lachhman.

 ਹਣਵੰਤਰੁ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਆਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥ 
hanavanthar aaraadhhiaa aaeiaa kar sanjog ||
Then, he remembered Hanuman the monkey-god, who came to him.

  ਭੂਲਾ ਦੈਤੁ ਨ ਸਮਝਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀਏ ਕਾਮ ॥ 
* bhoolaa dhaith n samajhee thin prabh keeeae kaam ||
The misguided demon did not understand that God is the Doer of deeds.*

*Point*
 ਨਾਨਕ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਸੋ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਰਾਮ ॥੨੬॥ 
naanak vaeparavaahu so kirath n mittee raam ||26||
* O Nanak, the actions of the Self-existent Lord cannot be erased. ||26||

*  The Guru now tells us the outcome of this "struggle". The city of Lahore is another metaphor, used to explain something more spiritual than meat.ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਜਹਰੁ ਕਹਰੁ ਸਵਾ ਪਹਰੁ ॥੨੭॥ 
laahaar sehar jehar kehar savaa pehar ||27|| The city of Lahore suffered terrible destruction for four hours. ||27||

 There is no way to come to the conclusion that this is about meat, any more than the other shabad is about meat. It is about *"the bridal procession of sin" *that starts with pride and ego. 

Thank you Ekmusafir ji for your contribution. And kds ji for coaxing me to re-read this with your commentary.

Thank you Giani ji for this, *These hymns are remarkable for their moral structurs and poetical eloquence. Nowhere else in contemporary literature are the issues in medieval Indian situation comprehended with such clarity or presented in tones of greater urgency. In spite of his destructive role Babar is seen by Guru Nanak to have been an unwitting instrument of the divine Will.*

It all makes sense.


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## Sikh80 (Apr 29, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> *Point*
> ਨਾਨਕ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਸੋ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਰਾਮ ॥੨੬॥
> naanak vaeparavaahu so kirath n mittee raam ||26||
> * O Nanak, the actions of the Self-existent Lord cannot be erased. ||26||*



Respected aad ji,

I am not involved too much in this thread and may ,therefore, be excused if I ask a very pointed question.
Do you , from the core of your heart, believe that above translation can ever be correct. ?
Why should the self existent ['saibhang'] ever act?
His will is enough to create or destroy this creation.
Sorry,I have picked up the line highlighted.
Kindly reply after some time. We are all here.


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## spnadmin (Apr 29, 2008)

Sikh80 ji

The translation of that particular line is going to be a problem in English no matter who translates it because it is getting at *erasing* the unseen will or design of the unseen God. How logically can that which is not seen be erased? This is a problem because the English language is for want of a better expression very "object oriented." 

The translation makes sense, captures the intent of the Gurbani, captures the meaning, in my opinion. Expecially after reading what Giani ji has reported in his comments on Babar back a few posts -- and his contribution of the thinking of Harbhans Singh.

*These hymns are remarkable for their moral structurs and poetical eloquence. Nowhere else in contemporary literature are the issues in medieval Indian situation comprehended with such clarity or presented in tones of greater urgency. In spite of his destructive role Babar is seen by Guru Nanak to have been an unwitting instrument of the divine Will.

*On my lunch break at the office, and can't say more. Have to get back to work. Will try better later tonight.


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## Sikh80 (Apr 29, 2008)

*Background *


*W[/FONT]*e are blessed that we have got an eternal statute that should govern our lives and live styles should be adopted as per the writs contained in the Granth sahib i.e., the Sabad Guru. It contains pear of wisdom that we are supposed to follow. Seekers after facing difficulties do refer to the commentaries that are current in the current times. It has been an enduring task for all of us as to how to assign the meanings to the various lines and tuks. We do differ at many points and on account of this we are, sometimes, not able to establish the correct meaning that was intended to be conveyed by the Gurus.

 One of the reasons that prompted me to undertake this exercise was on account of the fact that there are many metaphors in Bani and the Grammar of the language is different as compared to the present day language.[/FONT]

*A[/FONT]*n attempt is made to present the basic rules that should be followed by us while arriving at the meaning. Things should have been easier if there were some guidelines issued by the SGPC and the allied bodies. Things would have been simpler if some standardized translations and commentaries are issued by SGPC.[along with allied religious bodies engaged in this process, if any.][/FONT]

*H[/FONT]*owever, it has not been done so far. There must be some justifiable reasons for this as well; I am not aware of this. The exercise that is being undertaken shall be very lengthy, time consuming and arduous and can be completed with the guidance and continued support of the members. 
The sole purpose of this is that we preserve this precious gift of the Lord for posterity in the state of virginity to the extent possible. The English translations have, on mass scale, resulted in distortions but we have no other alternative as anyone can post the translations and get away with the legitimate excuse that some English translation was relied upon.[/FONT]
The gullible seeker is likely to get lost by accepting the translations simply because these are fairly handy.

*The following guidelines are only indicative and not comprehensive in any case.[/FONT]*

*Major guidelines [/FONT]*

*I.[/FONT]*The SGGS itself should always be used to define its own terminology, meanings, symbols, terms etc. that are already clearly defined within the SGGS itself. The external reference or Extrinsic aids in such cases should not be employed unless some absurdity is to be resolved. In normal case the definition as given in the Granth should be preferred.
[/FONT]
*II.[/FONT]*The proper interpretation of any given WLVS should be determined, not only by that with which it stands immediately connected, but by considering other approved Banis, if any, which have bearing upon the meaning throughout the entire SGGS. Further, the meaning of any given WLVS can only be determined by bringing together all related scriptures that sheds light on that WLVS.[/FONT]

*III*[/FONT]. [/FONT]Every WLVS will be given as literal an interpretation as possible, unless such a literal interpretation would render the meaning absurd, or bring it into disagreement with other WLVS that also states the things in positive language in the context.[/FONT]

*IV. [/FONT]*No interpretation should be given to any WLVSbeyond what the[/FONT]_ fair meaning of the text itself allows[/FONT]__. The metaphors should[/FONT]_ bear a relation to the fair meaning of the text and the context.
 [/FONT]
*V.[/FONT]*All WLVS belonging to any particular philosophy must contain one or more of the peculiar features of the philosophy, by which it may be identified as related/belonging to that philosophy.[/FONT]

*VI.[/FONT]*The truth of any philosophy should be determined firstly by those WLVS that speak in _clear and positive language_, and not those that are symbolic or indicative in nature. No inference should be drawn from any symbolic or indicative WLVS that would bring it into contradiction with those which speak unequivocally on the same subject.[/FONT]
*
VII.[/FONT]*No philosophy should be derived based on a single WLVS of SGGS, a mere inference, or an argument from silence. Any philosophy should be found throughout the entire SGGS. In case there is a conflict the philosophy that is reflected in positive language should be preferred to the one that contains the definition/statement contained in the negative language.[/FONT]


*VIII[/FONT]*. To the extent possible one should avoid reference to the Extrinsic aids. In case there is a possibility of double meaning the meaning assigned to the text of Granth sahib should get preference over the extrinsic aids.[/FONT]


  All that is proposed above is as per the Interpretation of Statutes authored by Maxwell, UK.


*B. Extrinsic Aids*

*Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas ji.[/FONT]*

*Other approved Banis [not stated here][/FONT]*


*Abbreviations*

  SGGS=Sri Guru Granth Sahib[/FONT]
  WLVS= words/lines and/Verses/shabads[/FONT]
  OSA=other/second/another meanings[/FONT]

  I have drafted the above with due care and observing due diligence. However, one can always improve upon when the guidance is received. [/FONT]

One is free to post the comments on these if one has formed a view. It shall be meaningful if we have some major areas of convergence/divergence.




*Sorry, it is not properly edited for spellings/grammar.

[ after posting and re-reading I realize that there are lot of mistakes, shall try to rectify by tomorrow at this time only. Pardon me for inconvenience.]*

May He bless Us All
[/FONT]


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## spnadmin (Apr 29, 2008)

Sikh80 ji

You are the only person who can tempt me away from my duties. Two questions based on what you have written:


If you read 4 English translations -- they will all be different. And if you look closely, they also reveal the biases of the translators.

When an English speaker learns to translate for himself, and then translates -- Will his/her translation be biased according to his/her understanding? 

When a Punjabi speaker translates (from Gurbani to modern Punjabi) -- Will his/her translation be biased according to his/her understanding?

Translation results in vichaar and vichaar results in translation. There are no objective indicators for a good vichaar, anymore than there are objective indicators to decide who is at a high level and who is at a low level of spiritual development. So we have to assume that the progress of a "sangat" working together and learning together is a good experience for both the advanced and the beginner. Teach to learn and learn to teach. Forgive me.


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## Sikh80 (Apr 29, 2008)

Respected add ji,

it has nothing to do with the present thread. It would be an ongoing exercise for all of us till we are here on this forum.

Kindly have your snacks and pizaas.

[ I am also in the process of winding up and shall be shifting to a new apartment in a new city. Shall have to get my 'net' connection disconnected. Shall miss you all for some time. God willing, shall be in touch with you again]

Regards


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## spnadmin (Apr 29, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> Respected add ji,
> 
> it has nothing to do with the present thread. It would be an ongoing exercise for all of us till we are here on this forum.
> 
> ...



Well you know we are going to miss you -- all of us -- and me too! 

Your idea, now that you have clarified the scope, would actually make a terrific thread for the forum. The problem of translations comes up very frequently, and there are forum members who have professional expertise in this area -- in other words, they work with the problem of translations of Gurbani on a daily basis as part of their professional work and/or gurmat training of others.

Wonder how to  get such a thread started. How to involve those forum members. It would be a lot of extra work for them.


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## Archived_member2 (Apr 29, 2008)

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

Gurdev's Vaak is ABwiKAw kw kuTw bkrw Kwxw ]
abhaakhiaa kaa kut(h)aa bakaraa khaanaa ||
The translation provided is 'They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,"

This is what happens when people understand translations. One may read all the posts of this thread. He finds the translated Sikhs showing their expertise.

May I ask what does 'abhaakhiaa' means? Knowing how the translators reached the conclusion to call 'kuthaa' 'the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers' will be interesting. 

*****

I may be leaving for a Yaatraa for few days hoping to meet some on the way or at Manzil.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin (Apr 29, 2008)

Balbir ji

My best to you also on your journey. Place yourself in His mysterious power.


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## pk70 (Apr 29, 2008)

Quote"GURU JI DIDNT even acknowledge/comment on this...pointer is that this is IRRELEVANT and not worth commenting..( ALL other questions comments answered by Guru Ji)...we just need the Gyaan and Dhyaan and get out of Denial. IMHO..the MEAT question HAS BEEN SETTLED as stupid Jssi ji has written...its of no importance at all.

*Giani Jarnail Singh,
Respectfully I ask you, how you can say on one hand, Guru ji" hasnt acknowledge comments on it", then "abhakhya ka kutha bakra khana" vaak is used in favor of meat eating? Where do you stand?
Coming back to your historical quote. In about four hours they ransacked Lahore? What you are talking about? Why it was only for four hours? Then after that time, did normalcy follow? It lasted for days. The best Principal Surjit singh is better than Bhai Veer Singh ? In his "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Kosh"(154) clearly states that it was about early business of meat in which residents of Lahore were involved in. So lets dump Veer Singh, has Pr surjit Singh written any Gurbani Shabad Kosh that can enrich us, correct us? It is irrelevant to comment if it is not in agreement with Principal Surjit Singh. How many times I wrote here that "abhakhya ka bakra khana" Guru Vaak was not about eating or not eating meat. Even Randip Singh who agrees with on this issue also admits  that Shabad is all  about hypocrisy, but you keep bringing other stuff. How this Shabad can be tagged to Babur -attack or meat eating.
I myself do not want to waste time here because examples are given just out of context. As you quoted yesterday, all chaskas should be abandoned to walk on this Guru panth, I agree, then why Vegetarian or non Vegetarian  debate is being done ?
Just to share with you here is another Guru Shabad that may lead us to some good conclusion.*
mlwr mhlw 1 ] mrx mukiq giq swr n jwnY ] kMTy bYTI gur sbid pCwnY ]1] qU kYsy AwiV PwQI jwil ] AlKu n jwcih irdY sm@wil ]1] rhwau ] eyk jIA kY jIAw KwhI ] jil qrqI bUfI jl mwhI ]2] srb jIA kIey pRqpwnI ] jb pkVI qb hI pCuqwnI ]3] jb gil Pws pVI Aiq BwrI ] aUif n swkY pMK pswrI ]4] ris cUgih mnmuiK gwvwir ] PwQI CUtih gux igAwn bIcwir ]5] siqguru syiv qUtY jmkwlu ] ihrdY swcw sbdu sm@wlu ]6] gurmiq swcI sbdu hY swru ] hir kw nwmu rKY auir Dwir ]7] sy duK AwgY ij Bog iblwsy ] nwnk mukiq nhI ibnu nwvY swcy ]8]2]5] (pMnw 1275)

  Randip singh
       Excellent analysysis. This shabad has less to do with meat and more about Hypocrasy.
  Did you know that Brahmins who served their Muslim rulers actually ate Hala meat, just so they could "suck up" to them? There are some interesting history books on this.
*Randip Singh Ji, I agree.*
Saying all this, this translation clears up one thing, i.e. Kutha (as per rehat Maryada) refers to ritual meat and not killed meat as some pro-veggie groups claim.
*Again I agree, Kutha word is used to high light hypocrisy. Please tell me what it has to do what  are vegetarians saying? Are they saying Guru ji  says  especially in this Shabad  that it is against meat eating? I wrote many times to Giani ji that this shabad is all about hypocrisy applicable to all  and has nothing to do with meat eating or not eating. The whole shabad is about abandoning hypocrisy and meditate on HIM.*

 [/FONT]


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## pk70 (Apr 29, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> *Background *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 29, 2008)

guru piayeree pk70 ji, gurfateh.
no offense but we may have got some signals crossed.
Here is my take:
1. SRM and Gurbani are in tandem on Kutha Meat. No contradiction. Those groups who say Sikh MUST be vegetarian are WRONG and contradict the SRM/Gurbani. This is what i mean when i say thet the Meat controversy is artificially created/sustained and Gurbani/SRM solved the issue decades ago.
2. Diet has no significance in Gurmatt - sehaj is advised in ALL. No recommendation by Guru ji either way (meat eating or saag eating).
3. The Shaabd in essence does concentrate on HYPOCRACY ..YES. The Sword of HYPOCRACY cuts both ways....
4. No one...has the exclusive "right" to claim sole "right" on Gurbani. Bhai Sahib Bhai Veer Singh Ji is a major Pillar of Sikhi and also Father of Modern Punjabi Literature etc etc...BUT he too cannot be 110% RIGHT on everything..and he is not ( examples can be given but not in scope here)
Similarly just because someone hasnt written a "Kosh" he can be dismissed out of hand ?? I dont subscribe to such. Baba Budha Ji didnt write a single word..Bhai gurdass Ji wrote 22 Vaars, hundreds of Kabits swaiyas and even scribed the SGGS...Baba Budha Ji was chosen to be First Granthi of Harmandarsahib.
5. Gurbani is AGAADH BODH..meaning as deep as the deepest ocean...only Guru Jis Kirpa can lead us anywhere...thus i have given BOTH views on Lahore sher jehr kehar sawa pehr. This is a HISTORICAL INCIDENT - Babr sacked Lahore in 1523 when Guru nanak ji was an eyewittness and is believed to have written babar vani and this slok. As to WHY??? babar chose this time and that time and why he limited the sacking to this hour or that hour..frankly ONLY Babar knows.  You may be aware that there are aslo two versions of AAvan athherey jaan athanveh..Marad ka Chela...some beleive this verse is about Sher Shah suri..others believe a different version...again ONLY GURU NANAK ji knows- BOTH sides have good logical arguments..take your pick.
5. MY Personal method of education is to provide my students BOTH/THREE/FOUR sides to each incident...based on various authors/arguments/..and give equal opp to all - discuss..evaluate..arrive at your own conclusion. Guru Jis kirpa is NOT anyones Copy Right. Sometimes a five year old comes up with such a deep insight that i am humbled....no offense to Bhai Veer Singh Ji and his koshes and chamatkaars.(BTW i have ALL his koshes and chamatkaars..and teach them as well to interested students)

Regards 
Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 29, 2008)

pk70 said:


> Sikh80 said:
> 
> 
> > *Background *
> ...


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## pk70 (Apr 29, 2008)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> guru piayeree pk70 ji, gurfateh.
> no offense but we may have got some signals crossed.
> Here is my take:
> 1. SRM and Gurbani are in tandem on Kutha Meat. No contradiction. Those groups who say Sikh MUST be vegetarian are WRONG and contradict the SRM/Gurbani. This is what i mean when i say thet the Meat controversy is artificially created/sustained and Gurbani/SRM solved the issue decades ago.


 
*Gyani ji That is what"Ekmusafir_ajanbi, wrote earlier quoting Guru Sahib, actually I was never on any side save for misquoting Gurvak to prove something about meat eating or Halaal eating.*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> 3. The Shaabd in essence does concentrate on HYPOCRACY ..YES. The Sword of HYPOCRACY cuts both ways...


 
*Doubtless, hypocrisy keeps us in duality. Walking on Guru path, choices automatically changes.*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> 4. No one...has the exclusive "right" to claim sole "right" on Gurbani. Bhai Sahib Bhai Veer Singh Ji is a major Pillar of Sikhi and also Father of Modern Punjabi Literature etc etc...BUT he too cannot be 110% RIGHT on everything..and he is not ( examples can be given but not in scope here)


 
*Gyani ji, I compared your best missionary with Bhai Sahib Veer Singh ji, it can be said in case of Pr Surjit Singh too, you quoted him like the last master of interpretor of Gurbani.I myself do not agree with tagging stories to Guru Shabad. Even when Guru Sahib addresses history, he makes it clear by using some words.*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Similarly just because someone hasnt written a "Kosh" he can be dismissed out of hand ?? I dont subscribe to such. Baba Budha Ji didnt write a single word..Bhai gurdass Ji wrote 22 Vaars, hundreds of Kabits swaiyas and even scribed the SGGS...Baba Budha Ji was chosen to be First Granthi of Harmandarsahib.


 
*Comparision is made when only one person is promoted as the best one.*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> 5. Gurbani is AGAADH BODH..meaning as deep as the deepest ocean...only Guru Jis Kirpa can lead us anywhere...thus i have given BOTH views on Lahore sher jehr kehar sawa pehr. This is a HISTORICAL INCIDENT - Babr sacked Lahore in 1523 when Guru nanak ji was an eyewittness and is believed to have written babar vani and this slok. As to WHY??? babar chose this time and that time and why he limited the sacking to this hour or that hour..frankly ONLY Babar knows. You may be aware that there are aslo two versions of AAvan athherey jaan athanveh..Marad ka Chela...some beleive this verse is about Sher Shah suri..others believe a different version...again ONLY GURU NANAK ji knows- BOTH sides have good logical arguments..take your pick.


 
*I agree, questioning was triggered when only one meaning was declared the final one. Gurbani is like an ocean, in every dip new jewel is found.*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> 5. MY Personal method of education is to provide my students BOTH/THREE/FOUR sides to each incident...based on various authors/arguments/..and give equal opp to all - discuss..evaluate..arrive at your own conclusion. Guru Jis kirpa is NOT anyones Copy Right. Sometimes a five year old comes up with such a deep insight that i am humbled....no offense to Bhai Veer Singh Ji and his koshes and chamatkaars.(BTW i have ALL his koshes and chamatkaars..and teach them as well to interested students)


 
*Again, I agree heartily with you; however, Guru Granth Sahib conveys one message, also known as Gurmat, Nanak-philosophy, nothing should be said or interpret against that; I hope you will agree with me on this*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> guru piayeree pk70 ji, gurfateh.


 
*Respected Gyani ji I am not bhainji, you guess about me is wrong, Guru Fateh any way.*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Apr 29, 2008)

abhakhiyah....word ( derogatory) used to describe the language of the invaders...the muslims...the unclean...by the "MR. Clean" (Brahmin/pandit/prohit), the Dharam de Thekedaars, the super holies. Thus a goat slaughtered while the kalma in abhkhiyah language was read over it..becomes kutha/sanctioned/purified/Hallal......or otherwise....( unclean/banned/unfit for consumption..) depending on which side of the divide you are.
2. Abhakhiayah is also.."Bad Language"....and we all know what is bad language...and thats got nothing to do with religion per se...this can be swear words..bad words..nindiya...gossip..snide remarks..remarks that hurt..are meant to destroy someone/his/her marriage/character..etc etc..and since the TONGUE is used in BOTH situations....the tongue EATS..as well as SPEAKS...could the SAME "Tongue" that EATS the unholy/holy meat....also be the one that SPEAKS...the holy/unholy "LANGUAGE" ??..the ABHAKHIYAH ??? Guru Ji might be using the Double-Edged SWORD..here ?? If we go by Gurbani...speaking ILL nindiya etc is also BAD..and a Tongue that speaks ill is certainly NOT HALLAL..as in Haak Pariya Nanka us SOOR us Gayeh..the words are NOT directed at FOOD but Human Behaviour....

AAD JI..you are very very right...Gurbani is so multifaceted and at so many LEVELS..it is like being in a Hall of Mirrors at a carnival....Only those who have Guru Jis Kirpa can really appreciate the sheer beauty of Gurbani..

Balbir Ji..Bon Voyage..May Guru Ji keep you safe in His hands...

Sikh80 Ji..i will be missing you too..Guru Ji Bless..

Regards
Gyani jarnail Singh


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## pk70 (Apr 29, 2008)

PK 70 Jio,
Gurfateh.

With this is agree 150%. 
SGGS is COMPLETE.
SGGS needs no extraneous "keys" etc to understand
SGGS doesnt need any extraneous books granths etc to understand.
SGGS shabds almost  always HAVE further explanations elsewhere..all we need to do is to look/know how to look.

*Respected Giani ji

This says it all about how to understand Guru Granth Sahib Ji in right way.

*


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## Randip Singh (Apr 30, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *Again I agree, Kutha word is used to high light hypocrisy. Please tell me what it has to do what are vegetarians saying? Are they saying Guru ji says especially in this Shabad that it is against meat eating? I wrote many times to Giani ji that this shabad is all about hypocrisy applicable to all and has nothing to do with meat eating or not eating. The whole shabad is about abandoning hypocrisy and meditate on HIM.*[/FONT]


 
There was a silly debate raging some time ago on another forum that stated Kuttha means "killed meat". It does not according to this Tukh. It means "Ritually Killed meat" i.e. that which has been sacrificed for God (like Halal).

The shabad is not against meat eating. Sikhism is neither for nor against meat eating. It leaves that decision to the individual conscience. This shabad has been cited by some pro-veggie groups as being about not eating meat, as has been pointed by people here, it is not about meat.

There is only one shabad to my knowledge that actually talks about meat, and that is:

*Page 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji *
_*mehlaa 1.*_​_*maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.*_* 
ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay. 
gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay. 
maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay. 
farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai. 
naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai. 
anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee. 
maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.*​*
First Mehl: 
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. 
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin? 
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering. 
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night. 
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom. 
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said. 
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts. 
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.*​ 
If you read Gyani ji's analysis however, it is correct too in a respect.

The essay written by my colleagues and edited by me tackles this issue head on:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Apr 30, 2008)

randip singh said:


> There was a silly debate raging some time ago on another forum that stated Kuttha means "killed meat". It does not according to this Tukh. It means "Ritually Killed meat" i.e. that which has been sacrificed for God (like Halal).
> 
> The shabad is not against meat eating. Sikhism is neither for nor against meat eating. It leaves that decision to the individual conscience. This shabad has been cited by some pro-veggie groups as being about not eating meat, as has been pointed by people here, it is not about meat.
> 
> ...


 


On the contrary this shabad has been used by supporters of meat eaters as a certificate under which they get a pass for killing animals for eating purposes.

This Shabad highlights the plight of those hypocrites who comment or argue on the issue of meat, who have no knowledge of Gyi-aan or Dhi-aan. See highlighted lines. 

_*mehlaa 1.*_
_*maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.*_
*ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay. *
*gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay. *
*maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay. *
*farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.*
*naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai. *
*anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee. *
*maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.*​ 





> [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/../redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.srigranth.org%2Fservlet%2Fgurbani.gurbani%3FAction%3DPage%26Param%3D1412%26english%3Dt%26id%3D59935%23l59935"]Page 1412, Line 10


[/URL]



> ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਜਹਰੁ ਕਹਰੁ ਸਵਾ ਪਹਰੁ ॥੨੭॥
> 
> लाहौर सहरु जहरु कहरु सवा पहरु ॥२७॥
> Lāhour sahar jahar kahar savā pahar. ||27||
> ...





> ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰੁ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਦਾ ਘਰੁ ॥੨੮॥
> लाहौर सहरु अम्रित सरु सिफती दा घरु ॥२८॥
> Lāhour sahar amriṯ sar sifṯī ḏā gẖar. ||28||
> The city of *Lahore* is a pool of ambrosial nectar, the home of praise. ||28||​
> ...


[/URL]


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 1, 2008)

1. OUCH...ouch ! oh my...I am very very sure OUR Beloved Guru Nanak Ji would NEVER "CURSE" anyone..let alone CURSING an entire CITY of Lahore which surely contained many many God fearing naam japping souls. ( EK Muisfir ajnabi 's message says Guru ji "*CURSED LAHORE*".) IMHO Guru jis is just stating a Fact of History plain and simple - death and destruction/slaughter of the innocent etc.
2. Cursing/Sraap/ etc are not in Guru Jis dictionary. They shouldnt be in OURS as well if we are genuinely sikhs of the same GURU. In Fact Gurbani is clear that there is no cursing/sraap.

3. The undue emphasis on..second half line..Gyyan dhyaan nahii jannea
is overdone Belorra. imho those who "imply - subtley and not so subtley that they who are vegetarians and thus following Guru Nanaks Gurmatt path are the ones who have "*Gyaan Dhyaan*" while the others are sorely missing in this..tends to highlight this part a bit too much.
The More important is Second line...KAUN Maas..Kaun SAAG Kahaveh...solves the riddle of Gyaan Dhyaan - those who KNOW what is Maas and what is Saag are the ones genuinely having Gyaan Dhyaan..(imho )
3. There are lots of us who are in Line FOUR...day time and in front of the public..we hold our noses ( nay thumb our noses at the meat eaters as some lowly life form jehrr kehr massacrists..murderes etc..) BUT at NIGHT (under cover..in PRIVATE...) we never even hesitate to DRINK HUMAN BLOOD - HAAK PRAYA NANAKA US SOOR US GAYEH....grab others lands, abuse the trust of the innocent, play con tricks to cheat, rob, murder..white collar crime..whatever and everything happens..but when Day Dawns..we say..Na Na asseen sakahari hundeh haan ji..khoob khanna khichhrre hee or Kath ki Roti.. this is HYPOCRICY as well and shown up in this Shabad.
4. Isnt it a fact that there are Many Hundreds of thousands of Amrtidharee Kirpan wearing "SIKHS" doing exactly  ( Today) what the Shabd says the "Brahmins" did. Who are the MOORAKHS..all those who needlessly argue that meat eating/or not eating is SIKHI. That Amrit is broken by MEAT eating. Meat eating doesnt break AMRIT. Amrit is not that easy to break.
5. The so called "curse" on Amritsar is extraneous history...not corrobrated by Gurbani. Imho our GURU wouldnt be so evil hearted to curse the entire city of AMRITSAR simply because the PUJAREES of Harmandar sahib refused to open the Doors of Darbar sahib to Him. The Gurdwara commemorating Guru Teg bahadur Jis visit ot Harmandar Sahib is just NEXT to AKAL TAKHAT SAHIB. Meaning Guru Ji sat there...and then went away when the pujarees refused him entry to Harmandar Sahib/Akal Takhat sahib. Period. NO "cursing/berating/hitting his heels on the ground in anger How dare they ??? etc etc etc. Simply goes agisnt the very grain of our beloved Hind dee Chadar !! IMHO..story invented by some DERAWADEE BABA (many new ones spring up daily in Punjab seeing how lucarative goluck collections are)/Nirmala/Udasee SADHU etc is entirely plausible...Such SADHUS Curse and stamp their foot all the time...just watch any Hindi TV serial...
No offense to any hurt feelings..
Gyani JSA..( sans gyaan dhyaan to many..but no cursing/foot stamping here..not the Gurus Way at all...

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 1, 2008)

ਸਭਨੀ ਘਟੀ ਸਹੁ ਵਸੈ ਸਹ ਬਿਨੁ ਘਟੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
सभनी घटी सहु वसै सह बिनु घटु न कोइ ॥ 
Sabẖnī gẖatī saho vasai sah bin gẖat na ko&shy;ė. 
God the Cosmic Husband dwells within all hearts; without Him, there is no heart at all. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੯॥ 
नानक ते सोहागणी जिन्हा गुरमुखि परगटु होइ ॥१९॥ 
Nānak ṯė sohāgaṇī jinĥā gurmukẖ pargat ho&shy;ė. ||19|| 
O Nanak, the Gurmukhs are the happy, virtuous soul-brides; the Lord is revealed to them. ||19|| 

ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥ 
जउ तउ प्रेम खेलण का चाउ ॥ 
Ja&shy;o ṯa&shy;o parėm kẖėlaṇ kā cẖā&shy;o. 
If you desire to play this game of love with Me, 

ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥ 
सिरु धरि तली गली मेरी आउ ॥ 
Sir ḏẖar ṯalī galī mėrī ā&shy;o. 
then step onto My Path with your head in hand. 

ਇਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪੈਰੁ ਧਰੀਜੈ ॥ 
इतु मारगि पैरु धरीजै ॥ 
Iṯ mārag pair ḏẖarījai. 
When you place your feet on this Path, 

ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਕਾਣਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥੨੦॥ 
सिरु दीजै काणि न कीजै ॥२०॥ 
Sir ḏījai kāṇ na kījai. ||20|| 
give Me your head, and do not pay any attention to public opinion. ||20|| 

ਨਾਲਿ ਕਿਰਾੜਾ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਕੂੜੈ ਕੂੜੀ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
नालि किराड़ा दोसती कूड़ै कूड़ी पाइ ॥ 
Nāl kirāṛā ḏosṯī kūrhai kūṛī pā&shy;ė. 
False is friendship with the false and greedy. False is its foundation. 

ਮਰਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ਮੂਲਿਆ ਆਵੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਥਾਇ ॥੨੧॥ 
मरणु न जापै मूलिआ आवै कितै थाइ ॥२१॥ 
Maraṇ na jāpai mūli&shy;ā āvai kiṯai thā&shy;ė. ||21|| 
O Moollah, no one knows where death shall strike. ||21|| 

ਗਿਆਨ ਹੀਣੰ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ 
गिआन हीणं अगिआन पूजा ॥ 
Gi&shy;ān hīṇaŉ agi&shy;ān pūjā. 
Without spiritual wisdom, the people worship ignorance. 

ਅੰਧ ਵਰਤਾਵਾ ਭਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੨੨॥ 
अंध वरतावा भाउ दूजा ॥२२॥ 
Anḏẖ varṯāvā bẖā&shy;o ḏūjā. ||22|| 
They grope in the darkness, in the love of duality. ||22|| 

ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥ 
गुर बिनु गिआनु धरम बिनु धिआनु ॥ 
Gur bin gi&shy;ān ḏẖaram bin ḏẖi&shy;ān. 
Without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom; without Dharma, there is no meditation. 

ਸਚ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਾਖੀ ਮੂਲੋ ਨ ਬਾਕੀ ॥੨੩॥ 
सच बिनु साखी मूलो न बाकी ॥२३॥ 
Sacẖ bin sākẖī mūlo na bākī. ||23|| 
Without Truth, there is no credit; without capital, there is no balance. ||23|| 

ਮਾਣੂ ਘਲੈ ਉਠੀ ਚਲੈ ॥ 
माणू घलै उठी चलै ॥ 
Māṇū gẖalai uṯẖī cẖalai. 
The mortals are sent into the world; then, they arise and depart. 

ਸਾਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਇਵੇਹੀ ਗਲੈ ॥੨੪॥ 
सादु नाही इवेही गलै ॥२४॥ 
Sāḏ nāhī ivėhī galai. ||24|| 
There is no joy in this. ||24|| 

ਰਾਮੁ ਝੁਰੈ ਦਲ ਮੇਲਵੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਲੁ ਅਧਿਕਾਰ ॥ 
रामु झुरै दल मेलवै अंतरि बलु अधिकार ॥ 
Rām jẖurai ḏal mėlvai anṯar bal aḏẖikār. 
Raam Chand, sad at heart, assembled his army and forces. 

ਬੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਸੈਨਾ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਜੁਝੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ 
बंतर की सैना सेवीऐ मनि तनि जुझु अपारु ॥ 
Banṯar kī sainā sėvī&shy;ai man ṯan jujẖ apār. 
The army of monkeys was at his service; his mind and body became eager for war. 

ਸੀਤਾ ਲੈ ਗਇਆ ਦਹਸਿਰੋ ਲਛਮਣੁ ਮੂਓ ਸਰਾਪਿ ॥ 
सीता लै गइआ दहसिरो लछमणु मूओ सरापि ॥ 
Sīṯā lai ga&shy;i&shy;ā ḏehsiro lacẖẖmaṇ mū&shy;o sarāp. 
Raawan captured his wife Sita, and Lachhman was cursed to die. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪਿ ॥੨੫॥ 
नानक करता करणहारु करि वेखै थापि उथापि ॥२५॥ 
Nānak karṯā karanhār kar vėkẖai thāp uthāp. ||25|| 
O Nanak, the Creator Lord is the Doer of all; He watches over all, and destroys what He has created. ||25|| 

ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਝੂਰੈ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੀਤਾ ਲਛਮਣ ਜੋਗੁ ॥ 
मन महि झूरै रामचंदु सीता लछमण जोगु ॥ 
Man meh jẖūrai rāmcẖanḏ sīṯā lacẖẖmaṇ jog. 
In his mind, Raam Chand mourned for Sita and Lachhman. 

ਹਣਵੰਤਰੁ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਆਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥ 
हणवंतरु आराधिआ आइआ करि संजोगु ॥ 
Haṇvanṯar ārāḏẖi&shy;ā ā&shy;i&shy;ā kar sanjog. 
Then, he remembered Hanuman the monkey-god, who came to him. 

ਭੂਲਾ ਦੈਤੁ ਨ ਸਮਝਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀਏ ਕਾਮ ॥ 
भूला दैतु न समझई तिनि प्रभ कीए काम ॥ 
Bẖūlā ḏaiṯ na samjẖa&shy;ī ṯin parabẖ kī&shy;ė kām. 
The misguided demon did not understand that God is the Doer of deeds. 

ਨਾਨਕ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਸੋ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਰਾਮ ॥੨੬॥ 
नानक वेपरवाहु सो किरतु न मिटई राम ॥२६॥ 
Nānak vėparvāhu so kiraṯ na mit&shy;ī rām. ||26|| 
O Nanak, the actions of the Self-existent Lord cannot be erased. ||26|| 

ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਜਹਰੁ ਕਹਰੁ ਸਵਾ ਪਹਰੁ ॥੨੭॥ 
लाहौर सहरु जहरु कहरु सवा पहरु ॥२७॥ 
Lāhour sahar jahar kahar savā pahar. ||27|| 
The city of Lahore suffered terrible destruction for four hours. ||27|| 

ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥ 
महला ३ ॥ 
Mehlā 3. 
Third Mehl: 

Ref to mussafir ajnabis comment on Guru amardass jis "assurance on foundation of amritsar ( Holy) vs lahore (EVIL) city" assertion.

ਲਾਹੌਰ ਸਹਰੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਰੁ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਦਾ ਘਰੁ ॥੨੮॥ 
Lāhour sahar amriṯ sar sifṯī ḏā gẖar. ||28|| 
The city of Lahore is a pool of ambrosial nectar, the home of praise. ||28|| 

Amrit_SAR - POOL of Ambriosal Nectar....exists in every place where the SANGAT gathers to perform Gurbani Kirtan/Naam japp/NamKatha/share Guru ka Langgar. This is not a reference to Amritsar city which was established long after Guru amardass Ji.

2. RAMDASS SAROVAR is another ususally misunderstood word. It is normally taken to mean that "Sarovar of Guru ramdass ji"...but what are we say when GURU ARJUN JI declares.... Due to continous repetition of RAAM..I BECAME known as "RAMDASS"...this surely cannot mean that Guru Arjun ji is also Guru Ramdass (his father) ?? RAMDASS means the DASS of RAAM the Creator....similarly RAMDASS SAROVAR is the place where the DASSES of RAAM the Creator gather to do Gurbani kirtan/katha/share langgar etc. Every Gurdwara palce of sangat congregation is RAMDASS SAROVAR.

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Randip Singh (May 1, 2008)

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> On the contrary this shabad has been used by supporters of meat eaters as a certificate under which they get a pass for killing animals for eating purposes.
> 
> This Shabad highlights the plight of those hypocrites who comment or argue on the issue of meat, who have no knowledge of Gyi-aan or Dhi-aan. See highlighted lines.
> 
> ...


 
If this shabad is being used by supprters of meat eating then they are just as stupid as those who support a vegetarian diet.

This shabad is a direct refrence to those people who think they have more Gyan and and Dhan because they have a paricular diet, in this case vegetarian Pandits who sneered at meat eaters. Guru Nanak was a wise man indeed.

As for your other points, I draw you to Gyaniji's excellent rebuttle:



> *1.* OUCH...ouch ! oh my...I am very very sure OUR Beloved Guru Nanak Ji would NEVER "CURSE" anyone..let alone CURSING an entire CITY of Lahore which surely contained many many God fearing naam japping souls. ( EK Muisfir ajnabi 's message says Guru ji "*CURSED LAHORE*".) IMHO Guru jis is just stating a Fact of History plain and simple - death and destruction/slaughter of the innocent etc.
> 
> *2.* Cursing/Sraap/ etc are not in Guru Jis dictionary. They shouldnt be in OURS as well if we are genuinely sikhs of the same GURU. In Fact Gurbani is clear that there is no cursing/sraap.
> 
> ...


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## Archived_Member4 (May 10, 2008)

mukiq pdwrQu pweIAY Twk n AvGt Gwt ]231] (1377-1, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat. ||231||
He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked. ||231||
kbIr eyk GVI AwDI GrI AwDI hUM qy AwD ] (1377-2, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.
Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,
Bgqn syqI gosty jo kIny so lwB ]232] (1377-2, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. ||232||
whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. ||232||
kbIr BWg mwCulI surw pwin jo jo pRwnI KWih ] (1377-2, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine 
qIrQ brq nym kIey qy sBY rswqil jWih ]233] (1377-3, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ||233||
- no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||
nIcy loien kir rhau ly swjn Gt mwih ] (1377-4, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.
Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.
sB rs Kylau pIA sau iksI lKwvau nwih ]234] (1377-4, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. ||234||
I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know. ||234||
AwT jwm causiT GrI quA inrKq rhY jIau ] (1377-5, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.
Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.
nIcy loien ikau krau sB Gt dyKau pIau ]235] (1377-5, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. ||235||
Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. ||235||
sunu sKI pIA mih jIau bsY jIA mih bsY ik pIau ] (1377-6, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.
Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.
jIau pIau bUJau nhI Gt mih jIau ik pIau ]236] (1377-6, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. ||236||
I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. ||236||
kbIr bwmnu gurU hY jgq kw Bgqn kw guru nwih ] (1377-7, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.
Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.
AriJ auriJ kY pic mUAw cwrau bydhu mwih ]237] (1377-7, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi. ||237||
He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. ||237||
hir hY KWfu ryqu mih ibKrI hwQI cunI n jwie ] (1377-8, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.
The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.
kih kbIr guir BlI buJweI kItI hoie kY Kwie ]238] (1377-8, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. ||238||
Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. ||238||


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 11, 2008)

the "Brahman"..Pandit..Maulvi..Kazi...etc etc in Gurbani are more than just Brahman/kazi/pandit. They are "CHARACTER". IN Guru Nanak Jis time these people are the PARCHARAKS..the LEADERS....the Ones in FRONT of the Faithful....teaching/moulding/preaching.
TODAY these same "CHARACTERS" would also include the "GYANIS" ( yours truly included !!) the "Ragis, the Kathakaars, the kirtaniyas, the Bhais, the Jathedars...etc etc. Its the CHARACTER that is at FAULT ( Paap is BAD not the PAPEE !!) IF a GYANI is misleading the sikh sangat...preaching the wrong things...than its his BAD TEACHINGS that are condemned. Many people usually take the "OH Brahmin..OH Pandit..OH Kazee....as proof that...OH Guru Ji means the HINDU BRahmin/Pandit..or the Kazee or Mullah..NOT ME..I am a SIKH..not  a Brahmin/kazee !!!
SO when  Kabeer ji declares that the Brahmin is NOT the GURU of the devotees..neither is the GYANI or the Jathedaar or the Kirtaniya...( IF he is misleading/misinterpreting Gurbani/SGGS ). IF the Brahmin has knowledge of Brahma..then he is true Brahmin....and a Gyani who has the gyaan dhyaan of SGGS...then he is true Gyani - otherwise NOT. Gurbani is for ALL TIME.

Gyani Jarnail Singh


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## Archived_Member4 (May 11, 2008)

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji 

When Kabeer declares that Brahmin is not the Guru of the devotees he is stating the Guru is the Guru of the devotees and no one else.  So we must follow the Guru.  What you have said about the Gyani or jathedaar also is true; for them not also being the Guru.


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## Randip Singh (May 15, 2008)

Singh said:


> mukiq pdwrQu pweIAY Twk n AvGt Gwt ]231] (1377-1, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
> mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat. ||231||
> He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked. ||231||
> kbIr eyk GVI AwDI GrI AwDI hUM qy AwD ] (1377-2, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
> ...


 
*1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1337)

*In this instance let us firstly add the Gurmukhi with the English: 

_mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat._
231 
_kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh._
_bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh._ 232 
_kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi._
_tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi._ 233
_neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi._
_sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi._ 234 
_aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o._
_neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o._ 235 
_sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o._
_jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o._ 236 
_kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi._
_arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi._237 
_har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay._
_kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay._ 238 
_kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay._
_khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay._ 239 
_kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl._
_kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl._240 
_dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant._
_kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant._ 241 
_har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas._
_tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas._ 242 
_kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag._
_bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag._ 243 

_He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked._
231
_Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,_
_whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy._ 232
_Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -_
_no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell._ 233
_Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart._
_I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know._234
_Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord._
_Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart._ 235
_Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul._
_I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my _soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart._ 236_
_Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees._
_He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas._ 237
_The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up._
_Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it._ 238
_Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball._
_Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be._ 239
_Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment._
_Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour._ 240
_Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint._
_Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee?_



Taking out the sentence we see ​

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine – 

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 


Firstly note that *maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish.* The word in Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two lines the statement is made: 

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag. 
Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world. 

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243 
If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. 243
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 


Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).


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## spnadmin (May 22, 2008)

*Re: Seo*

abc ji

*Search engine optimization commercials are forbidden. This is commercial spamming and the Korean lettering are obvious links to commercial web sites. Commercial spamming is forbidden in the forums. *


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