# Invite For Sikhs



## Islamfac (May 6, 2008)

I checked first with your Admin  and was told I could repost this because the previous one fell victim to the forum upgrade.. LOL. I apologize in advance if anyone disapproves. 

I am the admin over at Islam Factor forum. I would like to extend an invitation to you to participate in the threads on our forum. 

We have a diverse member based from many faiths (and non-faith ppl). I hope to explore and promote diversity on our forum. We have Christians, Muslims, Atheists, etc. The one thing we dont have is Sikh representation. 

Our site is dedicated to freedom of expression and diversity with a focus on confronting Islamic extremism and promoting tolerance. We hope to promote a mutual understanding of cooperation and working together on the forum. 

I don't want our forum to go without at least some people from the Sikh community to offer challenging discussion on ANY issue that concerns them or to act as a counterbalance on issues related to them. 

 More particularly, I am interested in people who can tell us about the Sikh faith as well as your perspectives.  

My main goal in inviting you all is for the sole purpose of helping our members learn about Sikhism as I have worked with Sikhs in the past to help educate the public. It was something that I originally did for Muslims but then included Sikhs as I found that they ha become mistaken for Muslims unfairly in hate crimes and saw the need for public education on the topic.

If you are interested, please feel free to join and participate. I look forward to seeing you there. 

The link is: Islam Factor

Please also read our Purpose of Forum post to find out more. 

Islam Factor

Have a great day!  
_
_


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## stupidjassi (May 6, 2008)

Well its good thing sikhs are not there. Coz all sikhs are busy in Meditating on the God as our Guru ji says


ਅਗਿਆਨਮਤੀ ਸਦਾ ਅੰਧਿਆਰਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੂਝਿ ਹਰਿ ਗਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੨॥
अगिआनमती सदा अंधिआरा गुरमुखि बूझि हरि गावणिआ ॥२॥
Agi*ānmaṯī saḏā anḏẖi*ārā gurmukẖ būjẖ har gāvaṇi*ā. ||2||
The foolish intellectuals are forever in spiritual darkness. The Gurmukhs understand, and sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. ||2||



So I discourage Sikhs going there and Arguing with muslims/christians on foolish matter. WE all know what is true. Nobody gonna listen to us anyways, coz truth is bitter always.

If you guys could find god, that will be great. we pray for you as well.. Be strong in your faith and forgive us

thanks
stupidjassi


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## Islamfac (May 7, 2008)

I think you didnt really read anything of what I wrote in this invite nor did you take the time to check out the forum purpose.   Of all the Sikhs I have worked with (in real life) I never met one who was opposed to the idea of dialogue, mutual understanding and cooperation.   Guess there is a first time for everything 

This is* not* a site devoted to converting people.  Re-read my invite and it tells you the purpose.  *No one* asked you to argue or convert.  Your post is unfair.

Also, I checked with your admin.  If they thought this was a bad invite, they wouldnt have let me post it on the forum here.

Again, re-read my invite.

I am equally open to opening a special Sikh section where sikhs can pin-up their beliefs for everyone to read.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 7, 2008)

> _This is not a site devoted to converting people. Re-read my invite and it tells you the purpose. No one asked you to argue or convert. Your post is unfair._


With all due respect, Islam, like Christianity as missionary religions whose teachings are biased in favor of encouraging debate and even seemingly innocent discussion for the sole purpose of undermining religion and inviting conversions.  I'm sorry but history of Islam and Christianity, are no friend of the Sikhs.

You will likely only meet with skepticism and caution.  I agree with Jassi and urge Sikh sangat to boycott discussions with missionary religions due to the history of ulterior agenda.  I have yet to see a Muslim website which presented an unbiased view of Sikh religion and was not engineered to do all it can to undermine the faith.  And the presentations where Sikh reverts to Islam stand up and publically denounce and insult Sikhism are spectacles worthy of national apology.


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## stupidjassi (May 8, 2008)

It is ironical, I think you have misunderstood my post. Probably you need to re-read my reply despite of perusing me to read yours.

As you yourself said , ' This is* not* a site devoted to converting people.'. I have never thought in that way, even i have not blamed you for inventing a new way to trap people with innocent discussion. 

The reason why i discourage dialogue because I except the discussion to be more in the way argument specific and less about singing the praise of God. I have hardly heard about any time, or any place where muslims/ christians ever sing Psalm of the Almighty one. in fact they always waste their time in meaningless discussion, So what do i expect if sikhs/ hindu also evolve . 

*No body gonna listen to anyone because Muslim and christians are professional Missionary *( forgive me if it hurts) as  Harjas Kaur Khalsa also meant.

On the other hand there are still tons of innocent sikh/hindu/bhudist who probably are waiting for a time to get convert.

What type of discussion do you expect anyways? If you want to read about Sikhism ,come here , *we`ll happy to teach you.* But if you want to invite us for pointless discussion i am sorry. 

I don't think Sikhism does beilve in meaningless conversation. If you want to discuss with somebody why you don't discuss your issues with God himself? 

See ,even right now i am wasting my time in arguing you . i could better use my time in having simran etc.

I apologize for harsh response but truth is always bitter 
thanks
stupidjassi













Islamfac said:


> I think you didnt really read anything of what I wrote in this invite nor did you take the time to check out the forum purpose.   Of all the Sikhs I have worked with (in real life) I never met one who was opposed to the idea of dialogue, mutual understanding and cooperation.   Guess there is a first time for everything
> 
> This is* not* a site devoted to converting people.  Re-read my invite and it tells you the purpose.  *No one* asked you to argue or convert.  Your post is unfair.
> 
> ...


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## Islamfac (May 8, 2008)

stupidjassi said:


> It is ironical, I think you have misunderstood my post. Probably you need to re-read my reply despite of perusing me to read yours.
> 
> As you yourself said , ' This is* not* a site devoted to converting people.'. I have never thought in that way, even i have not blamed you for inventing a new way to trap people with innocent discussion.
> 
> ...



Singing the praises of God is commendable.  I wouldn't know why you wouldnt want to share that with the world.

Second, we are *not *a missionary forum (said for the second time).  Read our forum Purpose (again, for the second time).  Seems the only missionary is the one telling me about truth hurting   Interesting comment since I havent done or said anything but invite you.

You dont know my relationship with God to say that I dont already discuss things with him.  that is not the purpose of my invite.  My invite  is to improve awareness about Sikhism (among other faiths and ideas on our forum).

Again, this isnt only about my learning, but the learning of many others who wouldnt ordinarily come to a Sikh forum, who are still willing to learn about Sikhism.  Come to the forum and find out.

We are more than happy to host Sikhs on our forum.  I dont know why you would turn down a hand of friendship.  

Have a nice day


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## Islamfac (May 8, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> With all due respect, Islam, like Christianity as missionary religions whose teachings are biased in favor of encouraging debate and even seemingly innocent discussion for the sole purpose of undermining religion and inviting conversions.  I'm sorry but history of Islam and Christianity, are no friend of the Sikhs.
> 
> You will likely only meet with skepticism and caution.  I agree with Jassi and urge Sikh sangat to boycott discussions with missionary religions due to the history of ulterior agenda.  I have yet to see a Muslim website which presented an unbiased view of Sikh religion and was not engineered to do all it can to undermine the faith.  And the presentations where Sikh reverts to Islam stand up and publically denounce and insult Sikhism are spectacles worthy of national apology.



So, your saying that you cannot establish friendship with a Christian or Muslim because you are scared of their innate intentions of converting you?

Sounds silly to me.  Especially, since my invite was for you all to tell us about Sikhism, not to discuss conversion or anything leading to conversion.

Im not interested in converting Christians, Jews, Sikhs or anyone.  Just to hear opinions, learn, and offer the same for our members.

I even offered to start a special Sikh section if need be, but no one seems to read that part of my invite.  Nor is there any reading of the part where I have worked with Sikhs to increase awareness and tolerance when wrongfully identified and targetted in backlashes against Muslims.

If you are not interested, ignore the invite, but dont prejudge my intentions, relationship with God, and our forum when you have not been a part of establishing relationships with the many good people (from all faiths) on our forum.

If the history of Christianity and Islam is no friend to Sikhs, then tell us it.  I think you will find that maybe we dont agree with some of the things people have done in the name of our religions.  If you read the purpose of our forum thread, you would see that clearly.  Furthermore, just because our religions have clashed in the past, doesnt mean we cant forge a new relationship that will benefit us in the future.   The world is getting smaller and we need to learn to tolerate and live together in peace, even among difference.

Like I tell the Muslims, dont act like crabs in a barrel.   When one tries to get out the others pull him back down into the pit.  Lets work towards new friendships.

Kind Regards


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## futurekaur (May 8, 2008)

Islamfac;
 I went over and read some of your boards;including the Jewish one (I am) and I applaud your efforts. But right now Sikhi ihas going through a period of aggressive missionizing by Muslims, and you should realize that Sikhs don't have priests or religious qazis who have ready responses at their fingertips. So many are here learning more.
  I think that may be a part of it. 
   all the best


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## pk70 (May 8, 2008)

*Islafac ji

First of all my thanks for inviting Sikhs to your site. As a Sikh  we believe, if some one is Muslim, it is His Will, if Christian, again as per His Will. None of the religions represented on your site has this approach. Missionaries behavior stuck in quagmire of superiority  which according to Sikhism is the main obstacle in pursuit of His bliss. While on your site, while discussing religion, a lot of heat goes up. People start teaching science from the religion. I feel Sikhs should devote more time to understanding their own religion. All people of other faiths are welcome on interfaith thread as freely as they want but even over their same superiority complex ego spoils the whole show quite often. It was not a cool experience. I wish you success on your site!
Thanks again.
*


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## drkhalsa (May 9, 2008)

Dear Islamfac


Welcome to this forum !

And I would like to appreciate and thank you for the efforts you are puting in bring harmony 

I wish and hope your efforts bring the desired results as per the will of God 

Jatinder Singh


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## Islamfac (May 10, 2008)

futurekaur said:


> Islamfac;
> I went over and read some of your boards;including the Jewish one (I am) and I applaud your efforts. But right now Sikhi ihas going through a period of aggressive missionizing by Muslims
> all the best



I did not realize this.

See, I dont know much about what is happening in the Subcontinent.  I am not Pakistani, Indian or eastern even.


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## Islamfac (May 10, 2008)

Thank you guys for the welcome 

Perhaps I will pop in from time to time to ask a question.

I can see that some things Muslims may be doing in your part of the world is aggressive or extreme and that concerns many of you.  I am American and maybe have not realized how this would be effecting you.  Sikhs and Muslims in my area have always been open to each other and cooperative on many issues relating to them in politics and society.

If there is anything to do with Islamic aggression or extremism, feel free to post it on our site.  Our forum purpose includes dealing with such things.

As for Sikhism, since no one is willing to help with that, I will research and post my own articles on the sikh faith.  That seems kind of silly to me to do but I have no real choice.  I prefer people get their information from Sikhs about Sikhism, not from a Muslim about Sikhism.  See my point?

Best wishes to you all


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 10, 2008)

I looked over your site and registered.  While I won't debate religion with you, I am interested in your political forum, since the War on Terror has impacted our community greatly.  I have had so much discrimination and all because people think I'm a Muslim, or even if they know I'm not still act in discriminatory ways.  I never had this experience before 9/11.  And I had Muslims come up to me at work (when I had a job) telling me it was good I was keeping my hair covered.  One time I remember being insulted for being a Muslim.  I was about to protest that I was a Sikh when I looked over and saw an American doctor who I knew was married to an Iranian Muslim looking sadly at me.  And I took that abuse in the name of Muslim religion because it didn't make sense to protest being a Sikh as if that made the hate against Muslims correct.  In America at least, we do have common issues.  More Sikhs have been assaulted or killed because of the ignorance and prejudice promoted by the political situation which I think is government instigated to begin with to isolate vulnerable communities and create scapegoats.  At work I was always saying fateh to Muslims in hijab since we were all in the same boat (I wear a turban).  At least... when I still had a job.


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## spnadmin (May 10, 2008)

Islamfac ji

SPN has the deliberate mission of promoting open dialog about many topics that touch about Sikhi and Sikhism. Inter-faith dialog is an important part of SPN. So are the perspectives of people from other religious paths. Please feel welcome here. I reiterate the comments of drkhalsa in this regard. 

I have not registered in your forum but I have read all of your comments here on SPN. You distinguish yourself by your temperate demeanor and words and your clear writing. Your objectives so far as I can tell are important if any kind of inter-faith understanding  and dialog are to take place on this planet. And that is the only way to overcome distrust and prejudice -- on any side of the fence. I do see your point: *I prefer people get their information from Sikhs about Sikhism, not from a Muslim about Sikhism.  See my point? *end quote

As you read through the threads on SPN you will discover this pattern. There is a backlog of concern among Sikhs about Islam because of the current distress in many immigrant communities here in the States but also in Europe, Malaysia and other parts of the world, where Sikhs legitimately feel that their religious identity and freedom are seriously compromised, even assaulted by Muslims. This is a very real problem. These events do not of course justify bigotry from the Sikh side. And it does not excuse anyone from taking the more balanced view of Islam. However, in my opinion, it does explain the anger or the suspicion of many Sikhs toward Islam, and much of the negativity.

I wish you luck with your forum, and will myself register. Harboring anger is not the way to overcome misunderstanding. And anger and resentment are not the Sikhi way to God. Please continue posting your very interesting thoughts here on SPN also.


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## futurekaur (May 10, 2008)

I too have registered, I'm not as knowledgable as others here. But thought it might be nice to meet someone who is on the path.


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## Lucy Ahmed (May 11, 2008)

I think: ...as long as we are open-minded, tolerance and able to listen, we all will be fine. 

But, the problem is...too many times...someone usually think that s/he is better than the other. 

I say: ...there's only one God. No man be s/he is white, brown, black and etcs. can be apart in this global era. We are all brothers and sisters.

Just be careful, don't step on my toe...because it's ouch!!


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## Astroboy (May 12, 2008)

YouTube - Bulla Ki Jane Me Kaun
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QvvidH0B06E&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ahBssLpZWtI&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MYih0axE-U8&feature=related


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## Islamfac (May 21, 2008)

Thank you all for your welcome. I saw that someone posted an intro on our forum with the Sikhphilosophy link. 

I hope you all welcome Jonfan. He has made an appearance here and is one of our moderators 

Also, I saw this very cool video. I hope you all are not offended by music. The Punjab has a rich culture, so I didnt think you would be.

Check out this link I posted in the Sikh section. 

Muslim/Sikh Video

Futurekaur, thank you for your input on the forum. Even if your not knowledgeable, just meeting you can help others know that Sikhs are good people. I learned this as a Muslim that many people have prejudice out of ignorance and when they get to meet and make friends with you, their perception changes!

Peace everyone!


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 22, 2008)

That obscene video has nothing to do with religion, either Islam or Sikhism.  It may have to do with Punjabi culture, and little else.


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## futurekaur (May 22, 2008)

I enjoyed it a lot! I was happy to see a Muslim, Suleiman Mirza and a Sikh, Madhu Singh, dancing and  making music together. The point is the video was total fusion: an Indian take on a Western song. So creative. That should be our future.
 thanks Islamfac, I totally agree.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 22, 2008)

Don't put Gurbani together in a post praising pornographic gyrations in a video, please.  That's beadbi.


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## Islamfac (May 22, 2008)

Well Harjas, I dont recall saying this has *anything* to do with religion.

I did say that it was a Sikh and Muslim performing in the video.

Are you saying they are not Sikh or Muslim?  If so, by what authority do you make this claim?


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## futurekaur (May 22, 2008)

Harjas ji;
 I am sorry if you are offended. Let me explain. This video comes from a British tv show 'Britain's Got Talent' it was on a stage before a live audience, no drinking or smoking etc was involved. This is a G-rated situation.
  They made it to the finals I believe.  Here is a young Muslim boy, a trainee lawyer, who isn't a fanatic, and here is a young man keeping kesh and being a dancer and a comic.  This breaks down stereotypes...Is dancing and singing for fun forbidden to Muslims and Sikhs? I don't think so.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 23, 2008)

Dear Islamfac, my response was directed to FutureKaur because she was praising this video (which has been removed by YouTube) which clip showed males placing hands on genitals and gyrating hips for entertainment, which is kaami manmat and has also Living Guru's bani on her signature, which is innappropriate to have Gurbani next to such commentary.

No, Sikhism has nothing whatsoever to do with dancing as is considered unspiritual and innappropriate behavior, particularly the clip which was a Michael Jackson (not the best role model) imitation with extremely vulgar behavior.  Sikh religion has nothing whatsoever to do with behaviors like this, and to my best understanding neither does Islam or orthodox Judaism.

Correct me if I am wrong.  If someone is Amritdhari and behaves in such a fashion it would be outrageus.  And I do not recall now whether the "Sikh" participant was keshdhari or not, but since the question is raised, "who is a Sikh," and now what behaviors are acceptable to Sikhism, this video was definitely it.

~A non-keshdhari boy dancing bhangra or gyrating obscenely in a dance video represents himself NOT Sikh religion by any stretch of definition.  And my comment was simply a request that such behaviors which are besharam not be connected with Gurbani because that is beadbi of Satguru.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 23, 2008)

> Check out this link I posted in the Sikh section.
> 
> Muslim/Sikh Video





> Well Harjas, I dont recall saying this has *anything* to do with religion.
> 
> I did say that it was a Sikh and Muslim performing in the video.
> 
> Are you saying they are not Sikh or Muslim?  If so, by what authority do you make this claim?


Gurbani




> Dancing is a mode of entertainment in western countries. Sikhism applies          the general test mentioned in the Scripture to any entertainment, namely,          "Avoid that which causes pain or harm to the body or produces evil          thoughts in the mind." (A.G.p 16) Dancing with partners of the opposite          sex is likely to cause sensuous thoughts, for intimate bodily movement          rouse the lower passions.
> However, cultural dances like Bhangra, Gidda, Tiranjan etc. are not          forbidden, but these should not be performed in the presence of Guru Granth          Sahib. Such dances are meant for social occasions or festivals and have          no religious significance. There are other religious dances which are          done by the Hindus (as for example Ras-Lila), and also by Muslim Sufi          mystics. Such dances are not permitted in Sikhism. What the Guru permitted          was 'the dance of the mind', and not of the body. The Guru says:
> 
> "O my mind, dance before the Guru;
> ...


Sikhism, whether you accept it that way or not, or respect it that way or not... is a very conservative religion.  And such behaviors as shown in the video clip are frowned upon and NOT considered having anything whatever to do with Sikh religion, or Sikh identity, identification with Sikh religion as included under "Sikh" section or to involve Guru Sahib and  printed Gurbani in any way shape or form.
*
I didn’t realise the symbol’s sanctity: Mandira*
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1091274

*Complaints Filed in India over Richard Gere Kiss*
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20035545,00.html




> On reviewing the evidence presented before them, Sri Akal Takht Sahib has recognised the deep problem that exists in the UK. As the Sikhs’ supreme authority, Sri Akal Takht Sahib has voiced its concerns by issuing a new 'Sandesh' strongly reinforcing Sikh Rehit Maryada (Sikh Code of Conduct) and Gurmat (Sikh principles) on the following issues:
> 
> • Any form of intoxicants (alcohol, drugs etc) and preparation or consumption of foods such as meat, fish and eggs are not permitted on Gurdwara property.
> 
> ...


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (May 23, 2008)

I might also add, that if you go to a Gurdwara and begin clapping your hands to the kirtan, this would be considered disrespectful to Guru and you would be asked to stop or leave.  If you want to understand Sikhism, you have to understand it within it's cultural context and not as converts imposing Western standards of morality which are often perceived as immoral and offensive.  Dancing is not accepted as an expression of Sikh religion or within any context of Sikh religion, even Bhangra is frowned on in some sections of Sikh community.  And that is Punjabi folk dance, but largely has to do with objection to lyrics which promote drinking, and again sexualized imagery. Definitely this kind of sexual association would be repudiated by Sikh religion and I do believe Islam also.  An example would be recent objection of Akal Takht to a Bollywood star who had tattoo of Sikh Khanda on her shoulder and exposed lower back to display it.  She was publically criticized and censored by the highest Sikh authority for that action.  Please remember India is an extremely conservative country and the negative reaction to actor Richard Gere who publically kissed another Bollywood star, and this created such sense of insult and moral outrage he was asked to leave the country.

A lot of Sikh and Muslim youth imitate western culture, but that would never make such behaviors tolerable or acceptable to Sikh religion which remains extremely conservative.  It is an action of a boy individually and nothing to do with Sikh community or Sikh religion.  To Sikh religion that video clip is besharam (shameful).  To include it in a religious section introducing Sikh religion is equally shameful and a mistake.  Most Sikhs would find it insulting to the religion.


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## Astroboy (May 23, 2008)

Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> I might also add, that if you go to a Gurdwara and begin clapping your hands to the kirtan, this would be considered disrespectful to Guru and you would be asked to stop or leave.



This is so because in order for a student to follow his Guru, it requires his/her total concentration and total dedication before the veils of ego, I-ness and maya can be lifted. Otherwise, we are just turning the gurdwara into a social club. 

The beauty of the Sikh teachings are that the Guru is never physical - Guru is beyond Maya and the worlds of duality. SGGS is the physical rep and the wayshower to reach the True Guru - invisible and strongest force. 

May the Force be with you.


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