# Short-hair Ban On Gurudwara Marriages



## S|kH (Mar 15, 2005)

There's a new ban on "short-haired" people getting married in the gurdwara.

Discuss. (I'll post my views soon).

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## S|kH (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

Alright, now I have a little time on my hands, I shall post my views.

I am in favor of this ban. 

It promotes something which should have been promoted long ago, the core of a Sikh. It defines what a Sikh is and should be or gives atleast a base for the definition to grow of. 

Many people will say how this is discrimination. How is this discrimination if it is a persons choice to keep kesh or not? You can not relate this to the caste system or say how this is blatant discrimination, because the caste system or heritage is something that your BORN with. This is a decision you make in life, to shave or cut your hair. Just like drugs, or smoking. 

Some people will also say how the Guru offers his hands to everyone, and this is closing of Sikhism to the "elite". Once again this view is wrong, simply because the Guru is not closing off any relation to the Mona. He is simply saying, I shall help you in your quest, please take this step for me, and I'll help you forever. 

The Khalsa Panth has 5 obligatory kakkars that must be maintained before recieving amrit. Why aren't the monay yelling about discrimination there? The Guru set it in stone, that in order to become Khalsa, you must do this and this. He never turned down a mona that came up to him to recieve amrit, but he didn not just give out amrit in masses to the many monay that were running around...He helped them become Khalsa first, in appearance as well as internally, and then gave them amrit to soldify it. 

Just as is the case with this ban, the Guru is always there, he will help you first, maintain your kesh, and hopefully cleanse you internally, and then will allow you to perform anand karaj alongside him. 

Some may say, why not go after other things that is against Sikhi, such as drugs and alcohol. Now, of course these things are against Sikhi, but they can not be noted unless they are widely used by the person, and if they are, than I fully agree that the Gyani Ji should just get up and leave. But, you see the point here is that, Kesh can be seen everywhere and everytime, hence why this is the base of the ban. Another argument could be that people will not just grow their hair to get married, and then cut it afterwards. 

So? People could pull the same tactic off with recieving Amrit. If they choose to make a mockery of the Sikh religion, theres nothing we can really do.

Also, some say this will just push of the Monay more, and the kids will move away from Sikhism. Ok, perhaps thats what we need, the first thing they should learn is that your not a Sikh by birth, its something you become. This ban will soldify that. Perhaps they will learn that to take part and have pride in the history, they must also become what the historic Khalsay were. Maybe it will give them a reality check. All this ban is, is on marriage, it can not drive them away that far. Plus, since marriage takes place usually in the 20's, the kid has 20+ years to learn Sikhism and see if he wants to get married according to its guidelines or not. Why would a 14 year old Mona really care about a marriage law that he most likely won't even be familiar with. By the time he's familiar with the ban, he will already have formed an opinion of Sikhs, Sikhism, and if he wants to practice Sikhi or not. He will know, if he wants to become Sikh or remain secular.

A good move by placing this ban. I think its something we needed in place a long time ago.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Mar 16, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Das can say it is good to Ban marrige of Patits in Gurudwara but let Sahijdharis like from Hindu or Muslims or other non Sikh family can be allowed to use Gurudwaras for Marrige as per Anand Karaj Ceromony.

Like Karisham Kapur inspite of being from Hindu family got marrige by Sikh Anand Karaj.That is more a way to preach Panth to outsiders.

Das is also afarid that now Patits will go to pandits for marriage and thier wifes will wear Mangal Sutra and childern will have mundan but if they were allowed in Gurudwara to marry at least thier wife could still have had 5Ks and sons/doughters too.


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## hira (May 6, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

Sikhism was initiated by Guru Nanak Dev Ji and progressed until the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. It was then that the concept of the Khalsa started. My question : were all the Sikhs who died prior to the creation of the Khalsa "bad people" ? To me, Sikhism is a way of life, I prefer to live by the teachings of Guru Nanak. How can one ban the marriage of someone who has decided to cut his / her hair ? I have seen people who are Amrithdari and are more evil than those who have cut their hair. Plus 2pac is dead, get over it.


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## CaramelChocolate (May 6, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*



			
				hira said:
			
		

> Plus 2pac is dead, get over it.


There is nothing wrong with a discussion but do not get personal.


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## truthseeker (May 6, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

Fateh jio!

For this ban... is it only refering to males????? because how is it ok for a female to get married in a Gurdwara if she cuts her hair, but it is not ok a male to do so? Sure if her hair is not totally short than u probably couldnt tell, but i just think that it is a bitt sexist.

Fateh!!


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## UnstoppableSingh (May 6, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

I'm totally Pro for the ban.

As for Hira's reply about the Sikhs before Guru Gobind Singh Ji made the modern Amrit Ceremony.......... All Gurus before Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave Amrit to Sikhs. This was called Charan-Amrit..... Guru Sahib would insert there right "big" toe into the water and do Simran (or in some cases only say "WaheGuru") and give that to people that wanted to become Sikh.... from there Guru Sahib gave them Japji Sahib and Kirtan Sohila for there Nitnem and almost all the same tenets carried on from there.... only huge difference from Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Guru Gobind Singh Ji was the 5 Kakkars.


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## luthra_sumeet (May 7, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*



			
				hira said:
			
		

> Sikhism was initiated by Guru Nanak Dev Ji and progressed until the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. It was then that the concept of the Khalsa started. My question : were all the Sikhs who died prior to the creation of the Khalsa "bad people" ? To me, Sikhism is a way of life, I prefer to live by the teachings of Guru Nanak. How can one ban the marriage of someone who has decided to cut his / her hair ? I have seen people who are Amrithdari and are more evil than those who have cut their hair. Plus 2pac is dead, get over it.


 Please note that uncut hair was required from guru nanak's time , It is a misconception that people have that only the khalsa created by Guru Gobind singh ji and thereafter had hair uncut but this is not so.
every rehat that khalsa had after 1699 vaisakhi was present even before that from Guru nanak's time. The way amrit was to be taken had changed after 1699.

regarding the marriage aspect i believe that if we shun the people who are presently are not following Sikhi, we will never be able to take them back in our fold. If we dont shun them there is possibility we could have our brothers/sisters realise sometime that what they miss being outside sikhi.

-Sumeet


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## Archived_member2 (May 7, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

Satsriakal to all and SIKH Ji!

You wrote "The Guru set it in stone, that in order to become Khalsa, you must do this and this."

Please provide the original references from our Gurus.

I will be grateful.


Balbir Singh


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## Amerikaur (May 8, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

I'm really not sure.

How is a "mona" determined? And who does it?

I don't hear Sikh ladies that keep their hair long but trimmed described as "monas".   I hear Amritdhari women with plucked eyebrows still described as "Amritdharis" and not "monas".  I don't hear men with turban and trimmed beard described as "monas", they are described as "beard-trimmers".   I don't hear men or women with piercings (ears, nose, or any other place) described as "monas".  I don't hear Sikhs that have undergone elective cosmetic surgery described as "monas".  

Yet all of these people are choosing to not keep the body intact.


The first time I walked in to a gurdwara, I didn't walk in wearing panj kakkars.  I believed in the gurus, yes.  I knew the rules, yes.  But I was not very good at adopting their teachings.  

I knew one of the things that I had to do was to not cut my hair anymore.  With guru's grace, after a bit more than 1 year, I was ready to finally make that commitment.

I became Keshdhari when I made the commitment to Guruji to not cut my hair or shave my legs any more.   

It was not the centimeter length of hair that was on my head that made me Keshdhari.   

It is not the position of my hair in it's growth cycle that made me Keshdhari.

It was not the gurdwara's committee that made me Keshdhari.  

It was not opinion of the sangat that made me Keshdhari.

It was me, Waheguruji, and our commitment to each other that made me Keshdhari.   

I don't understand why that is not enough.


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## drkhalsa (May 8, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*



> I'm really not sure.
> 
> How is a "mona" determined? And who does it?
> 
> ...




Dear Kaur ji 
very well written totally agre with you 
And about the ban I think it has pros and cons if think in term of future of sikhi 
As I think Gurdwara is the place for people like me and many oyher to get inspiration and progress further on our journey and especially if we are living outside punjab where it is the only place we can find sangat so it becomes very  very essential that every body should go gurudwara and denying somebody this would not be advisable and I dont think it will help anybody in coming close to gursikhi jiwan ,so what is the use of it ?
The only thing I can think pro to this ban is that it gives a wrong impresion to our coming generation thst it is ok to be MONA and still being a sikh , and scarring the basic core defination of sikh . But we can atleast treat mona as non sikh and allow hinm to get married in gurdawra as non sikh and not singh and offcourse same should apply to girls who dont follolw sikhi jiwan , 
One suggestion could be to scrap singh and kaur from names of such peoples in official ceremonies may be this could help to differentiate people but banning does not appeal to me much well ths question is really hard for me to answer nad I am still looking for answer


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## Archived_member2 (May 8, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

I wish to say only this to the responsible ones.

You ban others on way to God and wonder why got stuck on the crossing.
Better remove the obstacles, be cooperative and follow the Guru's way.


Balbir Singh


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## thecoopes (May 15, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

Dear friends, from an outside perspective at first I thought it appeared a little elitist to ban someone from getting married in a Gurdwara because they cut their hair.  

But then on reflection I considered that if a person viewed the act of being married in the Gurdwara as sacred he should also then show respect for the Sikh religious way of life and keep his hair uncut.

If however the individual views the act of marring in the Gurdwara as merely a face saving duty and has no real love for what the Gurdwara and what the Sikh’s uncut hair stands for, then the individual is showing contempt for Sikhism and therefore for what reason would it be right to allow his marriage to take place? The standing of the Gurdwara would be just as a registry office!



Incidentally someone mentioned that it would be good to shun an individual who was not following his Sikh faith.  This I think is wrong, you will not win back such a person but would more likely drive them away, into the arms of some other belief or group.

Far better to show kindness and talk of Sikhism to them in a non hostile but caring way, if the person is to be won back then they will be drawn by the warmth of real human love as expressed through the words of the Gurus I have seen quoted.



Best wishes 



John


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## Amerikaur (May 16, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

John,

In large part, I agree with you. However, the sticking point with me is that it is only the Amritdhari (baptized) Sikhs that have made the commitment to not cut their hair. 

Plus, there are other sins - such as using alcohol - that are just as big. 

A recent panthic website indicated that 85% of Sikh men in Panjab use alcohol.

Does that mean that only 15% of Panjabi Sikhs can get married in Gurdwara?

Cutting hair is also a bajjar kurehit...but I do not think that it should be an excuse to drown ourselves in krodh and hauma (anger and ego) over the matter. Instead, I think we need to wonder how we can inspire our brothers and sisters to return to the flock.

If we take no efforts...if we do nothing...if we cannot be inspiring...if we are unsuccessful at motivating...if we put it off...if we ignore it...if we don't feel like doing it...if we just don't like dealing with them...if we hate looking at them...if it's no use they won't listen anyway...if we shrug our shoulders and say we have no clue how to...

...if we produce zero results, then whose fault is that? 


IT IS possible to motivate a Sikh to grow their hair again. And I can't think of a more powerful experience than to play a part in that happening. 

However...it is an experience only available to those with enough courage to reach out to another.


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## Lee (May 18, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

Hello all,

I think that AmeriKaur speaks a lot of sense on this issue.
My thoughts are that Sikhi is the hardest way, full of pittfulls of pride, and anger etc..

Instead of punishing thoses that find it hard, we should encourage them.
I am not Khalsa, perhaps one day God willing I shall be.  I do keep long hair and a beard, I go to Gurdwara as often as I can, I don't really understand the language so it is all hard for me all of the time.

I can understand how a Sikh that strives to be Gursikh can have trouble with all sorts of aspects of Sikhi.  Should we then call them a bad Sikh and eclude them?  No of course not, if those with short hair, wont or can't grow the hair, then that is between them and God.  Personaly I'm not qualified to make the desicion of who, or what goes on in Gurdwara, I'll leave that to God.

Cheers,

Lee.


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## thecoopes (May 18, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

Good day dear fellow humans, this is an issue that has all the makings of division and conflict.



If we look at all religions and indeed we could add clubs and organizations to this list as they too have codes of conduct and usually some kind of charter to which a member who sign’s up has to abide.



When the tenets of a religious belief are circumvented and then allowed to fall by the wayside we find that these religious beliefs then have offshoots that become sects and new religions. You may take the birth of protestant Christian belief founded in England due to King Henry the VIII being unable to divorce his catholic wife. 



Then too the club to which I belong has an handbook that is given to all members with the requirements laid out clearly to which I should then subscribe.

I do not have a choice as to which ones I follow, as not compliance means non member.



If the great architect of the universe has a way of worshiping him, should he not also be entitled to expect adherence from those whom profess to be his followers? 



I ask this not to make any Sikh feel bad but just to question this worlds attitude to their religious beliefs, also I too see the danger of inflexible elitism that engenders fanaticism and breeds the madness we have today with Islam, and the unyielding view of overly righteous zealots who through their beliefs are comfortable with carrying out untold acts of wanton evil in the name of their god!



So in conclusion I think it’s right to ask of its followers that they are in line with the teachings of Sikhism, but not to build a wall between the weaker ones and God but to help and build up their appreciation of the noble path of righteousness.
 :roll:


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## Lee (May 18, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*



			
				thecoopes said:
			
		

> So in conclusion I think it’s right to ask of its followers that they are in line with the teachings of Sikhism, but not to build a wall between the weaker ones and God but to help and build up their appreciation of the noble path of righteousness.
> :roll:



Yes John, I fully agree.  BTW I hope you don't mind me asking, but are you infact a Druid then?

Cheers,
Lee.


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## thecoopes (May 18, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*



			
				Lee said:
			
		

> Yes John, I fully agree. BTW I hope you don't mind me asking, but are you infact a Druid then?
> 
> Cheers,
> Lee.


 
No, this is because at the moment I am not drawn to any organized religion and am questioning belief in God, I am not an atheist but am in a bit of a spiritual turmoil as I see religion used as a means to control the masses and so for the want of a religious label have used Druidism. 

Peace John


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## Lee (May 18, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*



			
				thecoopes said:
			
		

> No, this is because at the moment I am not drawn to any organized religion and am questioning belief in God, I am not an atheist but am in a bit of a spiritual turmoil as I see religion used as a means to control the masses and so for the want of a religious label have used Druidism.
> 
> Peace John



Ahh I see, heh I only asked because I come from a Pagan background my self.

To help ease your turmoil a bit, let me give you the wisdom(heh) of my experiances.

I agree that organised religion has been and is being used to control the masses.  What I would say on that score though, and I know it sounds kinda cold but, this is the fault of the masses for beliveing in all that they are told.  The media do it, our goverments do it, organised religion does it.

It is the duty of every individual to take in as much data as they can, and then make up the mind on the merits or wrongness of any particular thing.

Be that organised religion, goverments, war, the death penalty, heh gays and Sikhi.

We can't free the masses, it is up to them to do it for themselves, the best we can do is promote education, and self education.

Cheers,

Lee.


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## Amerikaur (May 18, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

If the great architect of the universe has a way of worshiping him, should he not also be entitled to expect adherence from those whom profess to be his followers?


Yet another post from The Coopes that really makes me stop and think.  

I may have to negotiate longer lunch hours with the boss...


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## thecoopes (May 20, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*



			
				Amerikaur said:
			
		

> John,
> 
> In large part, I agree with you. However, the sticking point with me is that it is only the Amritdhari (baptized) Sikhs that have made the commitment to not cut their hair.
> 
> ...


Dear friend _Amerikaur__,_



I have been pondering on your thoughts and would agree that if we as humans were only able to go to our places of worship and fellowship when we were unblemished then I’m afraid they would be empty for a long time.

It does become a very difficult area when we enter this arena of measuring each other by a rule book, so we have the spectre of one individual committing a certain wrong then comparing his wrong with some others that may be in their eyes a more grievous wrong. By this process we then can justify ourselves as not so bad and the individual sees it as ok to attend the Gurdwara, Church, or Mosque while feeling justified in condemning others who fail to measure up in different areas. 

I suppose that’s why we need to instruct others not just in word but better in our conduct, while all the time watching that we don’t become sanctimonious expecting of others what we ourselves are unable to give.

In short the religious beliefs we have should mould us not in rules but in goodness, if you may allow me to quote from the Bible (which in itself does contain many rules and regulations that if we were to adhere to would make us almost robots.) The spirit of all those rules is summed up with this.

Romans: 13:9,10.. “The commandments do not commit adultery, do not commit murder, do not steal, do not desire what belongs to someone else” all these and any others besides are summed up in the one command, “to love your neighbour as you love yourself”. If you love someone you will never do them wrong, to love then is to *obey the whole law*.”



Matthew: 22:37 –40. “Love the Lord your god with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind”. This is the greatest and most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like it. “Love your neighbour as you love yourself.” The whole Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets hang on these two commandments. 



As you know you can’t legislate for someone to love, it’s not like a command such as do not steal which is just an act of do or do not. 

Best wishes John


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## jsingh45 (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

my little remark here sorry if I may sound stupid... Sikhi is a beautifil religion initself because it is unlike Islam, not burderned by rules that tend to make a person go crazy, The Gurus teachings taught us so many things, among them that Whaeguru could care less who or what you look like when you are entering our temples, where is it written in our bani that a Guru ever turned a person away from the Darbar? Where in the Guru Granth Sahib is it written that a person with hair shorn may not marry in the presence of our blessed Guru Guru Granth Sahib? Brothers and sisters I think that Sikhi has fallen into a sad state when we as Sikhs choose to impose bans that people other than our Gurus have announced. Sikhi is about selflessness and Love not petty squabbling over issues about our mortal body that we will leave behing when we leave this Earth, Whaeguru loves the person, not the appearance, remember this before we ourselves fall into the fundamentalist pitfalls as other major religions, and begin banning non sikhs from the Harimandir Sahib....


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## tamara (Jun 7, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

When Guru Gobind Singh established this community he was viewed as a revolutionary by many. His teachings shocked, amazed and angered the establishment. What! Women as equals? How! Can all men be brothers, equals, castless? Crazy! Wearing beards, growing hair, sporting shorts, standing strong and demanding the right to break with the past and live accoring to a new philosophy...was He mad? The 5Ks were a simple yet powerful way to unite a diverse population. Even the poorest of his followers could wear the external vestments of the Sikh. Sri Guru Gobind Singh, the General, understood the need of his people to readily recognize one another. He uniformed an Army to defend his people, unite his followers, and stand beside one another as equals. Is a soldier not a soldier when he takes off his uniform? This was not a man, who clung to the past. He recognized the benefit and necessity of change and growth. A man should not be measured by the length of his hair. Any one can wrap a length of cloth around his head, much of the male population of the Middle East does. Does this mean they are Sikh? How many religions have lost their heart and undermined the teachings of their saints and prophets while retaining their "Holy" relics, temples, statues, vestments and ceremony. Shall the Sikh, like the Catholics, spend fortunes on Churches, land and artwork while their followers die by the thousands of starvation and disease. Or like some followers of Islam, shall we confine our women to back rooms, shroud them in black and let them die of neglect so that they remain homebound? Or perhaps, should we rise up against our short haired brothers and bloody our sacred knives because they don't adhere to the "right" or "correct" interpretation of the holy book? 
Would our General be proud of us as we spend hour upon hour, year upon year, arguing about hair, chairs, diet and clothing? Or would he prefer perhaps that we spend our time, energy and intellect making the world a better place. Would he not prefer that the world recognize a Sikh by the light in his eyes, the smile on his face, his gentle voice of reason and wisdom? Would he not prefer that the community say: Yes that is a Sikh! You can tell by the patience he has with his children, the affection he has for his wife, the concern he has for his neighbour, the honesty and fairness he displays in his work. When I look at the pictures of the guru's, I am not drawn to them by the clothing they wear. It is the kindness and strength in their faces, bearded and clean shaven, that makes me want to follow them. Just as it is the words on the pages within, not the appearance of the cover without, that leads me to read the Holy book.


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## jsingh45 (Jun 7, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

Brother Tamara your eloquent use of the words above moved me, wonderfully said, Peace be with you 
-Fateh


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## warriors_of_truth (Jun 8, 2005)

Hello all,

I think that the Gurudwara is for everyone, Sikhi is a hard path to walk on and we are all at different stages in becoming one with waheguru, who knows when the Guruji will grace us and make us lucky enough to take the amrit and sacrifice our heads? Therefore I think if somebody has love for sikhi, irrespective of what they look like physically they should be allowed to get married in a gurudwara as long as they look respectful.

Fateh

PS I love that quote 'if you cant see god in everyone you cant see god at all' beautiful


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## Saajan (Jun 14, 2005)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh!!

Dear friends,
 My apologies first as I am not a very religious person  nor do I have much knowledge of Sikhi save that I listen to the preaching of  learned scholars who speaks at congregations. I have been brought up as a sikh true to its code and was told never to question the instructions of Satguru.( Jo Gur kaheh Soi Pal Manio). 

Look at whats going on in the Gurdwaras today. Gurdwaras have become clubs and entertainment joints. Worst still is during Anandh Karaaj ceremonies, you will see the monay spotting temporary beard and the moment the ceremony is over, the first place he heads to is the barbers shop. The whole anandh Karraj Ceremony is a joke nowadays. We treat Gurumaharaj as a toy with no respect at all. ( Logan Ram Khilonah Janah).

In the ardas we do....Sikha nu Sikhi Daan, Rehat Daaan , Kesh Daan.....look at what Guruji has given us as gifts..and yet one ceremony I attended the "mona" giani ommitted the "kesh daan" from the ardas.... Now I ask the veer ji who said that one day the Monays will be banned from the Golden Temple... You tell me veer ji...Where is Sikhi heading.... Why are we questioning Guru maharajs Hukam?.... We are blinded by Maya arent we?    If one cannot accept Guruji hukam why insist on Anand Kaaraj ceremony? Isnt it better for you to just take it to the municipality and just get registered then to show disrespect for Guru Maharaj.

Dont blame the codes of sikhi being difficult and harsh. Remember what we are here for in this world. ( Phai Parapat Manokh dehhoriah, Gobind milan ki ehoh teri bahriah, .....rehraaas).  If you have choosen to break away from the code, dont demand sympathy...its your choice. Sikhi is beautiful is you could only see it but the bollywood looks are much more tempting.



Bhool Chuk Maaf!!

"Sach hamesha Karwah hota hai"


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## Arvind (Jun 14, 2005)

Saajan veer,
you have raised very valid questions for present sikh society. Keep on sharing the ways to amend too.
Regards.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 14, 2005)

Saajan said:
			
		

> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh!!
> 
> Dear friends,
> My apologies first as I am not a very religious person nor do I have much knowledge of Sikhi save that I listen to the preaching of learned scholars who speaks at congregations. I have been brought up as a sikh true to its code and was told never to question the instructions of Satguru.( Jo Gur kaheh Soi Pal Manio).
> ...


 
This is the mail that sums it all up nicely. Sikhe is BOTH "inside"...peace, kindness, humility,sacrifice,everything good and nice...and "OUTSIDE" the roop that gives INSTANT RECOGNITION.

A Policeman without his Uniform that doesnt give him instant recognition as Arm of the Law can be "smiling, kind, humble...BUT all that is NOT ENOUGH. To be EFFECTIVE, HE must be Instantly recognisable as LAW. Thats the CODE and IF a policeman cannot and doesnt want to wear his uniform..HE will NOT be ACCEPTABLE in the Force anywhere...no ifs and no buts...WHY ?/ cant they recognsie that a person can be law abiding, kind, humble, good LAW ENFORCER without wearing a Uniform and being a member of the Police Force ?? Yet the Prisons have many "crooked" policemen ?? is that  reason enough and then OK to have all our policemen remove their uniforms ??  WHat about all those millions of "crooks" who NEVER wore a Policeman's uniform ??

The "inside" part of SIKHE is easily a MILLION TIMES harder than outside sikhe..WHAT " effort" do we need to make our hair grow ?? ZERO...on the contrary ALL our EFFORT goes INTO REMOVING/CUTTING the hair.
Can anybody really stand up and say that CONTROLLING ONES Anger/Kaam/GREED/EGO..is way way EASIER than just letting your hair GROW ?? I would say HE is the GREATEST LIAR.

We have comments like "Amrtidharees" being great crooks, cheaters; liars, drunkards, womanisers..  THAT is PRECISELY MY POINT....these are the OUTSIDE SIKHS...who took the EASY WAY OUT....just let the hair grow, wear a kirpan, karra etc BUT FAILED MISERABLY to CONTROL their Kaam krodh, anger, greed, EGO !!! PROVES MY POINT.  ( but they are still LESS than MONAS who do the SAME THINGS...Prisons world over are FULL of Monas for just these actions ...and DONT claim they are "good sikhs INSIDE" )

IF a "sikh" is so ENGROSSED into SIKHE/GURMAT and Follows GURU NANAK to the LETTER.... I think he will have no time to cut his hair, drink, womanise, he will have NO INCLINATION to do all thsoe things..HE will BE BUSY being KIND, HUMBLE, etc etc..and His OUTSIDE ROOP will be automatically that of GURU NANAK JI HIMSELF ( and there is NO RECORD that Guru ji cut his hair, shaved his legs, drunk wine, womanised, plucked his eyebrows or whatever that these "INSIDE SIKHE SIKHS" claim they want to do and yet remain SIKHS.

IF a SIKH can really and TRULY becoem a 100% ++ GENUINE SIKH of the NINE GURUS to Guru teg bahadur Ji.... then I can say with 100%++ CONVICTION that He will have NO HESITATION in dnning the OUTSIDE ROOP given by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI..because the OUTSIDE ROOP gives INSTANT RECOGNITION that here is a GENUINE SIKH of GURU NANAK JYOT...living his life EXCLUSIVELY as per GURBANI....24/7 into naam simran..

IN MALAYSIA we have been having  a great issue with a MONA who is using his money/political connections etc to PROJECT HIMSELF as a SIKH LEADER. This man appears as SPOKESMAN of the SIKHS...but as a MONA...while the Prime Minister of Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew being a CHINESE appeared at all Sikh functions with a DASTAAR on his head. Every single Chinese or other race MINISTER attendign a SIKH FUNCTION...has worn a dastaar or Covered his /her head as a mark of RESPECT..even OUTSIDe a GURDWARA. Lately Pricne Charles of England, Queen Of England, PM of New Zealand , and various World Leaders have attended Sikh functions, gurdwara openigns etc ALL WORE DASTAARS/COVERED their HEADS....BUT "SIKHS" want to appear as MONA nangeh Sir..as they think that is their RIGHT and they have Sikhee inside ?? This is  a load of pure BULL. A monah sikh can be as he likes..BUT NOT as a SIKH "LEADER".

Sach kaorra hota hai ji is correct. Apologies for any harsh language ( you see anger is indeed a BEAST hard to control !!!)

Jarnail Singh gyani Arshi


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## murlikm (Jul 8, 2005)

I am Hindu by birth, but I try to follow the Sikhi way of life. If I am not mistaken, Sikhism is a way of life. A person who believes in the teachings of the Guru and who tries to follow them is a Sikh. I have harboured intentions of marrying in a Gurudwara. The ban on short-hair weddings goes against the teachings of the Gurus and the concept of embracing one and all. I strongly register my protest against this ban. If the ban does come into effect, then why limit it to weddings... ban the entry of true practsing Sikhs like us to the Gurudwara... ensuring that the religion does not grow. I am sad to state that the very reason why I chose to come under the folds of this religion i.e. pragmatism, non-myopic views and non-prejudicial outlook are under the scanner.

I urge all well meaning Sikhs to rise and lodge their protest against this diktat. 

Murli:}--}:
Mumbai


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## rooh (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

_  Whaeguru loves the person, not the appearance, remember this before we ourselves fall into the fundamentalist pitfalls as other major religions, _

I quite agree.  Why are we even having this discussion.  Do our hair go with us after we die!! and account for karmas???  Guru's concern is with our soul, NOT WITH THE MORTAL FLESH.  

Cannot believe the narrow-minded some people are>>>


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## S|kH (Jul 28, 2005)

To the people that say its "Denying someone the ability to go to Gurdwara" :

We are not denying ANYONE entry to the Gurdwara, we are ONLY talking of marriage inside the Gurdwara. Everyone is allowed to enter the gurdwara in open arms, but there are a few things only certain individuals are allowed to do.

Guru Gobind did NOT select a monay to be a Khalsa, and there were MONAY in the crowds during 1699...was he biased? Never, and he let monay always enter the gurdwara, but before he had given them AMRIT, they had proven to him that they were capable of the deed, it was not just thrown around and given out to everyone. BUT, he never denied anyone to come to the gurdwara, its two completely different things. 

Getting married in Gurdwara is making a commitment to be Sikhs and be united together and practice the Sikh way of life. Just like amrit is a commitment, there are some regulations, it can not and should not just be thrown around.


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## S|kH (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*



			
				rooh said:
			
		

> _  Whaeguru loves the person, not the appearance, remember this before we ourselves fall into the fundamentalist pitfalls as other major religions, _
> 
> I quite agree.  Why are we even having this discussion.  Do our hair go with us after we die!! and account for karmas???  Guru's concern is with our soul, NOT WITH THE MORTAL FLESH.
> 
> Cannot believe the narrow-minded some people are>>>




Guru Nanak said not to worry about the after-life, that if you do well now, and your actions are pure, than why worry what will happen in the after-life? Only the fools whose commit atrocious actions and sin continuously have a need to worry.

I am not worried about what will "go with me to the after-life", if hair makes it or not. But live your life in the Guru's image, last I checked...Guru Nanak kept a long beard and hair...same all the way to Guru Gobind who asked all his Sikhs to become Khalsa and keep it.

As far as the other quote of "Waheguru loving the person and not the appearance" than I ask...why did Waheguru give us hair, if we were not meant to keep it?  One can use that quote as an excuse for every thing...God loves me on the inside, not my actions. This is why Guru Gobind emphasized it so much that be pure in thought AND action. He cut out all the nonsense of "being so good inside" but "messing up, and doing bad things externally". 

Yup, the act of shaving destroys the identity Guru Gobind created, the hair God gave us, and is mostly done to "look good/clean in todays society". But, its ok...God only looks at the inside :whisling: 

For some reason, I always find that arguement equivalent to a girl who gets abused by her boyfriend, but remains with him because "he has a good heart".

Be pure in thought AND action.
Thought are your insides, your mind, your heart.
Actions are your outside, what you do with those thoughts, if you follow the Guru's word or not. They go hand in hand.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 29, 2005)

Wow what a confusing issue we have here and I see both sides to it, but here are my two cents

Why have a SIKH marriage ceremony when you don't even practice or believe in Sikhism fully? Essentially marriage should be for amritdharis alone, if not then a Muslim, Hindu or even myself should be allowed to get married in the Gurudwara. There would be no way of distinguishing between a monay Sikh and a Muslim/Sikh/Athiest etc. etc. they are MANMUKH... and if they are so manmukh then why do they even care about marriage? social pressure? culture? I say to them, go get married in a Mandir!


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## kds1980 (Jul 29, 2005)

CaramelChocolate said:
			
		

> Wow what a confusing issue we have here and I see both sides to it, but here are my two cents
> 
> Why have a SIKH marriage ceremony when you don't even practice or believe in Sikhism fully? Essentially marriage should be for amritdharis alone, if not then a Muslim, Hindu or even myself should be allowed to get married in the Gurudwara. There would be no way of distinguishing between a monay Sikh and a Muslim/Sikh/Athiest etc. etc. they are MANMUKH... and if they are so manmukh then why do they even care about marriage? social pressure? culture? I say to them, go get married in a Mandir!



why mandir. is mandir a place for manmukh


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 29, 2005)

kds1980 said:
			
		

> why mandir. is mandir a place for manmukh


Nope, I am just saying that hair cutting Sikhs are practically Hindu in my opinion.


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## Lee (Jul 29, 2005)

CaramelChocolate said:
			
		

> Nope, I am just saying that hair cutting Sikhs are practically Hindu in my opinion.



That's harsh CC.  

Questions for Cyber Sangat?

What are the 5 K's?
Why keep the 5 k's?
Who should keep the 5ks?

Are you more of a Sikh if you keep long hair but still drink beer in the pub, and I have seen these Sikhs, or if you cut your hair and wake up in the ambrosial hours to do your prayers?

Again, I'll say, and please correct me if I am wrong, but do you only HAVE to keep the 5 k's if you are Khalsa, and should all Sikhs strive to be Khalsa.

The rehat says that you are Sikh if you belive in the 10 Guru's and the Guru Granth Sahib.

The only thing that I can agree with your statement CC is that these people are bad Sikhs, but then I know a lot of Sikhs and only about two would I call Gursikh.

The ideal is to strive to be better, I'm a bad Sikh, your a bad Sikh, there are in fact lots of bad Sikhs around, the majority of us are manmukh, striveing not to be.  So instead of calling Sikhs who can't or wont keep long hair Hindus why not understand that Sikhi is the hardest path.

We all stumble, and remember that it is only by the grace of God that we change.  With that in mind who are you that you can say who is good and who is bad, who is Sikh, and who is not.

In my opinion hair cutting Sikhs are those that need Sangat more than most, not those that need to be turned away and derived by sangat, what sort of Sikhi is that?

Cheers,

Lee.


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## rooh (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

_But live your life in the Guru's image, last I checked...Guru Nanak kept a long beard and hair...same all the way to Guru Gobind who asked all his Sikhs to become Khalsa and keep it._


With due respect, since the beginning of time, Gurus have not just been confined to the Sikh faith, they have come in all guises and images. Saints / Gurus have been coming on this earth throughout the ages, they have had shorn hair, long hair, no hair etc, but their message has essentially been the same. We should attempt to imitate not their appearance, ie the physical, but their thoughts and actions towards others. 

You see, for us it is very difficult to practice the message of the gurus and ascend to their level, so we bring them down to our level, and follow what is easiest for us, ie long hair or short hair etc. And we forget what they really represented, and argue about physical images. People go to Mandirs, mosques, gurdwaras daily, but that does not make them any better or give them right to judge others, or bar others for that matter. This should bring in them, a degree of humility and acceptance. A true Sikh is a very rare thing indeed.


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## rooh (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

_I ask...why did Waheguru give us hair, if we were not meant to keep it?_ 

If one pursues this logic, then the Waheguru also bring us into this world with no clothes on, should we not also then keep this state???


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## drkhalsa (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*



> rooh said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## kds1980 (Jul 29, 2005)

CaramelChocolate said:
			
		

> Nope, I am just saying that hair cutting Sikhs are practically Hindu in my opinion.



wjkk
wjkf

   so according to you what are beef eating hindus or pork eating muslims
as these things are prohibited in their religion.


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 30, 2005)

kds1980 said:
			
		

> wjkk
> wjkf
> 
> so according to you what are beef eating hindus or pork eating muslims
> as these things are prohibited in their religion.


 
Some other religion or manmukhs of their faith.


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## kds1980 (Jul 30, 2005)

wjkk
wjkf

   caramel jee by keeping hair nobody become gurmukh.hairs are important if you keep them with your own wish.i live in delhi region 90%sikhs in this region have hair not because they are sikhs just because of family presurre.all the sikhs boys and girls in delhi are manmukh .if they would have been given chance to cut their hair they will cut.so this ban is wrong in my opinion
                                                                    bhul chuk maaf


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## CaramelChocolate (Jul 31, 2005)

Yes it is also about mental intentions... I never said a non-hair cutter cannot be a manmukh still.


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## a lost sikh (Aug 5, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

If our Guru does not discriminate who is shown to the path of enlightenment who are we to judge.  As for the caste comment, in Sikhism there is no race,caste or gender differnces, that is the hypocrisy of our people not our teachings.  

Just by looking the part (Khalsa) does not make you a true Sikh.  There are many people, who to look at take the role of a tradional Sikh (appearance) but have no idea what our Guru's set out to do.  These were the ones who were born into it and have been raised to look the part.  There are many young and old sardars who are so far from the teachings and the understanding of Sikhism.

On the other hand there are those who live by the Guru's teachings and walking down the street you would never know that in their hearts they are Sikhs.  I understand that the appearance is important, although I am not sure how important in todays society, but we do not connect with God by our appearance it is what is inside of our hearts and our minds.  

This potential ban would drive more people away from the Gurdwaras and our religion as some of the people who would be supporting the ban are probably the biggest hypocrites.  I think we should be doing things to get more young people involved in the Gurdwaras so that we give them the understanding that there is more to the Gurdwaras than the hypocrisy that is seen.  We have such an amazing religion but not a lot of people get the chance to see or experience it's strenghth due to our "reps".

a lost sikh


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## Arvind (Aug 5, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

dear veer,

let us ourselves be the reps then... what stops us?

Regards.


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## S|kH (Aug 6, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

Once again, let me break this post down.



			
				a lost sikh said:
			
		

> If our Guru does not discriminate who is shown to the path of enlightenment who are we to judge.  As for the caste comment, in Sikhism there is no race,caste or gender differnces, that is the hypocrisy of our people not our teachings.



How is this discrimination, because we ask certain features to ensure that you will keep your vow with the Guru during marriage? Did Guru Gobind Singh NOT ask or state certain features which were mandatory for the Khalsa? Why do you not call this discrimation then, during the amrit sanchaar ceremony when ALL Sikhs must keep their kesh? Why did our Guru demand such a thing?
Why can a mona not do this! We should abolish Kesh as a K, because its making the youth run away! Last I checked, even when Guru Gobind was at WAR he did not attempt to re-establish key ideals just to enlist a larger number of people in his army. He kept his ideals and mandates, and only the ones who fit the description were allowed to fight alongside.

Did our Guru decline anyone for being a Khalsa? Obviously the monay that were present at the first ceremony did not come up. No one was declined or ever discriminated against by our Guru, but they were told to go put their thought or "ideal heart" into action, and show the Guru that they were on their way to truth. They were not told that they are evil and do not belong, but they were guided on the truthful path and were simply asked to come back when they were ready for Amrit, and they had proven capable so. To  show the Guru that they had indeed followed the path of truth the Guru had set them on.

The Anand Karaj ceremony is also a vow to the Guru that you will maintain as his Sikhs. It is just not a ceremony anyone should take part in, and it is not a discriminatory ceremony, but unless you have shown that you are on the path, the same path Guru Gobind had created special characteristics for, than you should not make a vow that you havent kept up till that date. The same works for Sardars who are empty at heart, but that makes no excuse for monay who are "ideal at heart" to keep cutting their hair. Two completely different situations.  



> Just by looking the part (Khalsa) does not make you a true Sikh.  There are many people, who to look at take the role of a tradional Sikh (appearance) but have no idea what our Guru's set out to do.  These were the ones who were born into it and have been raised to look the part.  There are many young and old sardars who are so far from the teachings and the understanding of Sikhism.



Here we go again, you are simply picking the worst of one kind (sardar) and the best of the other kind (monay) and comparing the two as if they were both infront of the Guru, and then making your own decision on what the conclusion would be. Let us hold only one variable, the kesh, and everything else is the same between the Sardar and the Mona. Guru Gobind historically selected the Sardar as "his Sikh", part of the "Khalsa" because he had SHOWN the Guru his action in purity, not just his ideals or thought, or philosophy. The Mona has an equal heart, and philosophy, but fails to follow the Gurus words, and can not make his ideal thoughts into action. Which would Guru Gobind select? I'll let the reader think of the answer...matter fact, Which DID Guru Gobind select?



> On the other hand there are those who live by the Guru's teachings and walking down the street you would never know that in their hearts they are Sikhs.  I understand that the appearance is important, although I am not sure how important in todays society, but we do not connect with God by our appearance it is what is inside of our hearts and our minds.



We do not connect with God through our appearance? You know how many religious leaders would say the opposite, and easily state the importance of an identity, specifically of hair. Our appearance (The Khalsa) is our mandate with God, is our signing of the contract to live life the way it was designed. Our appearance is our identity that the Gurus created with a foundational understanding of philosophy. If the love is in your heart, than show the love to the world. 



> This potential ban would drive more people away from the Gurdwaras and our religion as some of the people who would be supporting the ban are probably the biggest hypocrites.  I think we should be doing things to get more young people involved in the Gurdwaras so that we give them the understanding that there is more to the Gurdwaras than the hypocrisy that is seen.  We have such an amazing religion but not a lot of people get the chance to see or experience it's strenghth due to our "reps".
> 
> a lost sikh



I think we should be doing things to keep the adults in line, so as not to filter our educational system into something completely the opposite of what history clearly shows us. When adults make a vow infront of our Guru, I would want our kids to see that the adults have kept that vow, or atleast attempted to maintain it. Otherwise, than why is that vow ever created?

In all seriousness, you may wish to talk of how a "bad" sardar still can make the vow infront of the Guru, well that is always there...we must the draw a line similar to the one our Guru chose, a physical appearance that ALL can see, not just an "inside heart". Secondly, the worst scenario is clearly the mona who grows his dhari only for the ceremony and then shaves/cuts it off afterwards breaking the vow mere minutes after the ceremony is completed. Is that not complete disrespect at the Guru's face?  Face it, the only measure of thumb is the physical appearance, we can not pry into someones heart to see their "ideals", and we can not let everyone make a vow to our Guru knowing our Guru had created certain guidelines to live by. Because, if its in your mind, its only a philosophy, only when it comes into action are you a student of the Guru.

We need to grow up and not feel the need to show that any choice our kids make are prefectly correct...admit it, our kids do wrong, lets not make them think their choices are completely correct. We need to tell them, and show them, that certain choices are NOT on the lines of Sikhi. We should not change Sikhi just because the youth follow a trend that changes rapidly. Nor am I telling you to completely excommunicate your child.

Frankly, I'm quite tired of hearing this nonsense of our kids not wanting to come to Gurdwara so let us change our foundation and maybe they will feel more accepted. Let us change our K's so maybe the monays feel more accepted and learn Sikhi. There is OTHER ways to make the kids feel accepted and put them on the path. You can NOT change a core element of the Khalsa. If you tell your kids that you do not need kesh now, and that the Guru no longer requires it, so he feels comfortable going to gurdwara....do you think he will magically change his mind later? Why don't we just tell them the truth...that the Guru expected certain physical features, some may not hold them, but its all on a path, when you feel ready, the Guru will accept you. Go to Gurdwara to learn this path, and see what fits you best. If you choose to not follow the path on the edge of the sword, than all the best to you, but please respect those that do, and try to live your life the way the Guru did. You must realize that you have made the choice to NOT follow that path, so one can not expect the Guru to change his path to simply make the child's new path correct.

Do not change the path so that you are the ideal human or your kid is living a perfect life.


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## a lost sikh (Aug 8, 2005)

I am not saying we should be changing anything in what makes us Sikh as was set out by the Guru. Our youth are not running away from having the physical appearance of a Sikh, they are running away because that seems to be the most important think lately and not what is inside. We are showing our children that it is important to look a certain way to be accepted, and that our inner being comes second. 

I think having the ban will be saying that unless you look the part you do not belong in the Gurdwara and that is not right. The Gurdwara is a place for everyone regardless of race religion or gender to come and pray. I myself am not a Puran Sikh but when I took my vows they were (and are) the most important and sacred thing I have ever done. I think given the option I would never have wanted to be marred in any other way. A part of me was joined with God and my husband in a way that could not happen in any other way. 

Until you have experienced a oness with God in the Gurdwara you have no idea the peace that comes over a person. Like I said I am not Sikh in your terms but I have experienced something with God that proves to me that I can be just as close and accepted by our Guru as someone who is a Gursikh and there is nothing that anyone can say that can prove otherwise. 

_We need to grow up and not feel the need to show that any choice our kids make are prefectly correct...admit it, our kids do wrong, lets not make them think their choices are completely correct. We need to tell them, and show them, that certain choices are NOT on the lines of Sikhi. We should not change Sikhi just because the youth follow a trend that changes rapidly. Nor am I telling you to completely excommunicate your child._

I completely agree with your statement here, parents need to teach their children right from wrong. I also believe that once we have taught them that they need to choose to be a Sikh. Once they make that choice they will follow that path of the Guru, if you tell them that they must they, in most cases, will not follow from the inside out but from the outside and potentially from within.

In short I am not saying change the ideals and the path that we are to follow. All I am saying is the ban will keep people from coming to the Gurdwara and if they are not coming they are not given the chance to be a part of the sangaat where they will have the chance to experience that oness with our Guru. I believe that our vow to our Guru is from within our hearts and not by the way we look. Not to say that it is not important to follow the "features" as set out but God is in our hearts.

A shepherd would not let a lost sheep wonder about aimlessly, he would try to bring it to where the rest of his sheep are so that it will not stray again.


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## drkhalsa (Aug 8, 2005)

In short I am not saying change the ideals and the path that we are to follow. All I am saying is the ban will keep people from coming to the Gurdwara and if they are not coming they are not given the chance to be a part of the sangaat where they 





> will have the chance to experience that oness with our Guru. I believe that our vow to our Guru is from within our hearts and not by the way we look. Not to say that it is not important to follow the "features" as set out but God is in our hearts.
> 
> A shepherd would not let a lost sheep wonder about aimlessly, he would try to bring it to where the rest of his sheep are so that it will not stray again.


 

dear Lost sikh 

Forgive if i am wrong but actually this disscusion is about banning marriages of patit sikhs ( sikhs not following the rehat)  and not about the ban on entering gurdwara 

i just thought may be disscusion is going out of track 



Jatinder Singh


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## mehargags (Aug 8, 2005)

Ok i agree That some ppl say that our guru Tell us that don't discriminate between People on relegion so i want to ask them People so why then Guru Gobind singh Ji Make Khalsa ??? whats the reason of making If his father gave Life for hindu, He can also Live Lke that only why he make Khalsa ( i hope he don't have Power to see the forcast that one day sikh stands up cut there hair & say all relegion are same & not thinking what Guru Gobind singh Ji said & done.

Plz tell Me if a sikh cut down her hair ?
What Religion It belongs to ??????


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## S|kH (Aug 8, 2005)

a lost sikh said:
			
		

> I am not saying we should be changing anything in what makes us Sikh as was set out by the Guru. Our youth are not running away from having the physical appearance of a Sikh, they are running away because that seems to be the most important think lately and not what is inside. We are showing our children that it is important to look a certain way to be accepted, and that our inner being comes second.



Actually, they are running away from the physical appearance because of SOCIAL pressure, not because of what they feel inside. Hence, with the recent crisis of post 9/11 and the semi-recent events of 1984, the Sikh identity has come to the forefront of Sikh issues that we must address. That is WHY we make it seem like its the most important thing, because in this state of crisis, it is. 



> I think having the ban will be saying that unless you look the part you do not belong in the Gurdwara and that is not right. The Gurdwara is a place for everyone regardless of race religion or gender to come and pray. I myself am not a Puran Sikh but when I took my vows they were (and are) the most important and sacred thing I have ever done. I think given the option I would never have wanted to be marred in any other way. A part of me was joined with God and my husband in a way that could not happen in any other way.



So then, why not argue with the Panj Pyare that they are making you feel unwanted when they only give the Amrit Sanchaar ceremony to people who keep the outwardly 5 K's, and that they THINK are also pure on the inside? The 5 K's were meant as a standardized test, so that one could view pure action which often leads to pure thought. 



> Until you have experienced a oness with God in the Gurdwara you have no idea the peace that comes over a person. Like I said I am not Sikh in your terms but I have experienced something with God that proves to me that I can be just as close and accepted by our Guru as someone who is a Gursikh and there is nothing that anyone can say that can prove otherwise.



There's nothing that someone can say that will prove you otherwise? 
Please, do try to take amrit at the next amrit sanchaar ceremony, and let us all know how it goes. Let us know if the Panj Pyare, the people who were GIFTED by Guru Gobind as equals think you have pure action and thought and are ready to join. What you have, is in your inside, pure thought...that you think of God in a pure manner...but all that is, is just a philosophy. You must turn this love of God into action. I am sure you have a connection just as good as a Gursikh with our Guru, but it is our Gursikh that actually puts that love into action for all of humanity to see. We all have a philosophical connection with Guru/God, and most of the time its the same philosophical connection, but hardly any of us put those thoughts into action to help humanity in the way instructed and demonstrated by our Gurus. 



> I completely agree with your statement here, parents need to teach their children right from wrong. I also believe that once we have taught them that they need to choose to be a Sikh. Once they make that choice they will follow that path of the Guru, if you tell them that they must they, in most cases, will not follow from the inside out but from the outside and potentially from within.



And that is what I am saying, it should be a choice...but up until they can make a rational choice, it must be the way of the Khalsa to raise them along Khalsa principles. This is part of the vow you make when you get married. Yet, we still have parents who cut their childs hair when there like 5?, or let their child cut his hair when he's 10. No, you raise him as a Khalsa, and let him choose at 18.



> In short I am not saying change the ideals and the path that we are to follow. All I am saying is the ban will keep people from coming to the Gurdwara and if they are not coming they are not given the chance to be a part of the sangaat where they will have the chance to experience that oness with our Guru. I believe that our vow to our Guru is from within our hearts and not by the way we look. Not to say that it is not important to follow the "features" as set out but God is in our hearts.
> 
> A shepherd would not let a lost sheep wonder about aimlessly, he would try to bring it to where the rest of his sheep are so that it will not stray again.



This just doesn't make sense, because marriages happen like three times a year at most gurdwaras. Like Drkhalsa said, we ARE not talking about ENTERANCE to the Gurdwara, or praying, or being a part of "sangat". We are talking about VOWS made with the GURU in public, not in private, not in your "inside", but both in action and THOUGHT. 

--
In conclusion, no person should be allowed to make vows in public to our Guru infront of others, demonstrating commitment, or hold high seats of Sikh office unless they are both externally, and internally Sikh. Bibi Kaur was recently expelled because she was corrupt.


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## tp_bits (Aug 17, 2005)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh

This is my first post and trying to add a bit to the discussion.

My point is : we should not ban monna marriages.

It is not possible to distinguish between a sikh and a mona. 
Outward appearance is just one way, what about others ? say how would you know that the person drinks alcohol, has bad habits?
It is really not possible, to ban just on the basis of outward appearance, does not make sense. If you want to ban, then ban all who dont live their lives on the principles laid out by our Gurus.
A GURUDWARA is the place of Guru which should have acces to everyone, one who follows and one who does not. We have no right to limit this access. Guru does not differentiate between bad and good people. For him, everyone is same. 

Now,coming to 5k's, It is essential for a sikh to wear 5K's. People argue that a person can be a good human being without wearing 5k. I dont agree. If a person follows gurus teachings, his inner sikhi will be automatically reflected outwards.  The person wont have to put effort to grow hair and the person will never argue over this point. Those who argue dont have internal sikhi. DO YOU EVER FOUND A TRUE SAINT IN SIKHSIM WHO DIDNT HAVE OUTWARD SIKHI? Please tell me......

MY CONCLUSION : 
A TRUE SIKH WHO HAS INTERNAL SIKHI, HIS SIKHI WILL BE AUTOMATICALLY REFLECTED OUTWARDS ALSO. A TRUE SIKH WILL NEVER ARGUE OVER THIS POINT. 5K's ARE THE GIFTs OF OUR GURU TO US, IT IS SO EASY TO KEEP 5K, IF WE CANT DO SUCH AN EASY JOB, DO YOU THINK THAT WE WOULD BE ABLE TO FOLLOW GURU's TEACHINGS? PLEASE ASK THIS QUESTION TO YOURSELF. IS NOT HYPOCRITICAL OF US IF WE SAY THAT WE LOVE OUR GURU BUT WE CANT KEEP 5K?


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## CaramelChocolate (Aug 17, 2005)

I know I haven't participated on this thread much, but anyway.. First of all, my understanding is that anyone can be a Sikh, be he Muslim, Hindu, Jewish... a Sikh is someone who Sikhs God... However there is the other side of it where you get the amritdharis who are essentially the true Sikhs which is what we should strive to be, right? Doesn't maradya say that a couple who marries in anand karaj must be both SIKH... meaning they SEEK God... how many couples who get married in Gurudwara really do desire God and want to be with him? Doesn't maradya say they should also pledge to take amrit soon? Does any Gurudwara ever ask what their plans are religiously or do they just say "oh your punjabi with a kara on, you can marry here".... Infact I, a white person who is searching for GOD probably fits the bill more of getting married in a Gurudwara, although I would not say I am a Sikh due to the modern day attachments to the word [being punjabi, doing paath], Gurudwara would probably give me a funny look... but the point I am making is that the problem is probably with the Gurudwaras and maradya... they must either make marriages for amritdharis only or change the definition of a Sikh in maradya [say they must have 5 k's, not take intoxicants etc.]... but I don't see anything like this happening in today's secular society.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 17, 2005)

CaramelChocolate said:
			
		

> I know I haven't participated on this thread much, but anyway.. First of all, my understanding is that anyone can be a Sikh, be he Muslim, Hindu, Jewish... a Sikh is someone who Sikhs God... However there is the other side of it where you get the amritdharis who are essentially the true Sikhs which is what we should strive to be, right? Doesn't maradya say that a couple who marries in anand karaj must be both SIKH... meaning they SEEK God... how many couples who get married in Gurudwara really do desire God and want to be with him? Doesn't maradya say they should also pledge to take amrit soon? Does any Gurudwara ever ask what their plans are religiously or do they just say "oh your punjabi with a kara on, you can marry here".... Infact I, a white person who is searching for GOD probably fits the bill more of getting married in a Gurudwara, although I would not say I am a Sikh due to the modern day attachments to the word [being punjabi, doing paath], Gurudwara would probably give me a funny look... but the point I am making is that the problem is probably with the Gurudwaras and maradya... they must either make marriages for amritdharis only or change the definition of a Sikh in maradya [say they must have 5 k's, not take intoxicants etc.]... but I don't see anything like this happening in today's secular society.


 
You are spot on dear caramelchocolate..  Remember the entry of Jesus into the TEMPLE....Jesus had to kick out the priests because they had commercialised the House of God..

Well its the EXACT SAME thing in SIKH GURDWARAS today....MONEY TALKS..and real loud too. IF you have MONEY to donate to the Goluk...well you can do anything..ask for anything..get away with anything...

I dont want to wash dirty linen in public..but i think you get the point. Guru Nanak Ji wouldnt be able to "recognise" a Sikh gurdawra today !!

Sorry to be so blunt..but brutal honesty is my forte.

Jarnail Singh


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## hpluthera (Oct 5, 2005)

S|kH said:
			
		

> There's a new ban on "short-haired" people getting married in the gurdwara.
> 
> Discuss. (I'll post my views soon).


Who so ever think that way is enemy of Sikhs Sikhism is the religion for inclusion not exclusion. It took Guru Sahibs more than 200 years to make Sikhs Khalsa. Today's some self appointed preachers and leaders with some ulterior outside political or other presures talk of such extremity to exculde ordinary simple sikh who can not practice or become the meber of the Order of Khalsa.

Whereas in all good sense we should encourage all people to come to Gurudwara and participate and listen to Gurbani Kirtan and Vichar with Sahaj they will get more close to the Guru.  Unfortunately Like Brahmins of Guru nanak Time Many have get enslaved to only Five Kakars and not the real message.  Guru nanak rejected Janau for the very reason because it was nothing more than a symbol and the real meaning and its value were forgotten.  Guru nanak reminded the True message of  Vedas and asked and challenged the Brahmins by reminding the true message in Vedas =of Naam Simran not idol worship. "Kine Raam Naam Ik Akhar"
Similarly He reminded the Muslims the meaning of true Nimaz.  Guru nanak 's Message can only be spread in the same way Sri Guru nanak Dev Himself did preach in the simple way.  If Gurus had patience to create Khalsa in 200 years _ where from these quick fix "Khalsas" emerging which I challenge would not in real practice pass the Sikhi Test leave alone Khalsa Test- "Pahle maran Kabool kar Chad Jeevan Ki aas Sabna Ki ban Renuka phir Aao Hamare Paas".

Let us first understand the meaning and purpose of Guru Dwara- "Guru dware Jaye Sojhi Payisee"  It is a place where from you get "Gyan Sojhi". If you block people from coming to the place or frustrate any one by condemning him/her as second class Sikh because of his/her dress or looks then it is some thing else not gurudwara.

Moreover, how do you expect that any person  get "Sojhi".  Guru Duwara Is open to all seekers Ist step to Sikhi is 
"Surrender" "Mein Sab Khuj Tenu Sopia Ja Tera banda"  
Giving your hand in the Hand of Guru " Banh Pakar Gur Kadhia"
Gyan"Aape Sojhi Payesi"
Let the "Sahaj" work after surrender a mere touch of Gurbani will do its miracle. Do not become Karta Sikhi is not Islam or Christianity where persecution takes you to Heaven.  Sikhi is the journey to reach your Lord with His Grace With His Blessings With His Shabad With His Naam and Journey Of Sikhi Begins when you Get to know your Guru - Gu Darkness Ru- Roshini that is why Gurbani says" Gur Bin Ghor Andhar" so the one who takes you out of darkness into the Light - you become Sikh when you get to know your Guru Sri Guru Nanak dev Ji.   Guru welcomes and keep His door open for all. Guru Nanak showed and practiced that by taking out of darkness the Sajan ThUg, Koda Raksh and many of his time so Called "Papis".  Gurbani is not for those who are already engrossed in His Name it is for Papis who need direction to be on the right Path. 

"Sikho Sikhi Prachar te kise kism di Rok changi nahi".  "Awar updeshe aap na kare awey javey janme mare"
"Simran which leen Sikh da ik sparsh hi Kafi hey hazaaran shabdan naalon"
Behrupiye batere han sansar which 
Guru fateh HP Singh Luthera


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## devinesanative (Oct 5, 2005)

A true learner or Sikh is not dependent of Gurudwara , As for him this whole world is Gurudwara .

So , What is more important the Packaging Design or the Content ............

How you will ban those who are clean shaven but a learner and sikh 

learning in this beautiful Gurudwara Planet Earth .

Banning the clean shaven , it will mean that the clean shaven or hair cut is the disbeliever . ....

it means to ban out the hair cut people from this earth , there is only one way , that is kill him ..........

So, doesn't it will mean that there is no difference between sikhs and muslims who are head on heals to kill the disbelievers .

Through out this forum the posting of many scholars contradict with their own thoughts and philosophies .........

Some where they say it is in the hands of God , some where they say there is no believer and disbeliver ............


What's This .............

This hair cut ban is nothing but to draw the public attention , and those 

who do they are trying to be the next GURU , 11th guru ...........


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## devinesanative (Oct 5, 2005)

Gurudwars is not the only place to get married .................

And nethier  the Temple .................

And nethier  the mosque  .................

And neither any place made by humans .....................

If packaging is more important , then the couples should be left at home , bring their dresses which symbolizes sikhism according to you , get their dressess married ...............

That's alll.....................

I think if packaing is more important , I should serve the guest with good 

packages only instead of food ..........

If the mentality of Islam or Hinduism creeps in the sikhism , then it can be 

clearly viewed and observed that we are going to witness  the formation 

New Religion , Just like Guru Nanak Founded .


And that is the reason of formation of all new Religions one after the 

other , 


it was merely the process to simplify the living of the people .


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## devinesanative (Oct 5, 2005)

The beautiful body which the Akal has gifted us is the Gurudwara of the Akal ............. 

whom to ban and where to ban .....................

Sikhism is not maintaining law and order .............

Beware the Contractors and Custodians of the Sikhism ............. 

All this ban , and all this not allowing women to do such and such rituals is 

the narrow mindset of sikh clergies , and it does reflect the insecurity .

Power , Gain Power and Gain Power ..... that is what more important to the Sikh Clergies ............

"Baithe Baithe kUch sujhaya nahin , te B..........d ch Chamune Ladr de aa"

Uchlan Kuddan lagde aa , Hmmmmmmmmmm Chalo ji Phalani Cheez ban 

kariye .............


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## manvinder (Oct 10, 2005)

When a child does some mischief best way and i think all will agree is to tell him with love and affection that this is wrong and realise him what is right. We don't through him out of house. As a adult sikh one should be aware that he or she has to get amrit but in present times as we see most of young one don't keep kesh. aren't  they childern of god so should we through them out of the house of God? As some of the members are angry with sikhs who cut hairs and they show there anger. won't those who are thrown out of gurudawara have anger and resentment and will we be justified in doing that to people who are misguided instead of educating and motivating them?( different means personal and community can be used) we shoud not judge people from our point of view ever one has his own maturity and we should make efforts to enlighten people for adapting to sikhi rehat. I know a person who was studying in Nagpur and he was harrased by police because he had kept a flowing beard but he never got hisbeard cut but when he returned back to punjab and was trying to get marrried he was not getting any proposals and he had to cut his beard and then got married? so what you say? do we need extreme penalities to spread sikhi rehat or extreme educaton and awareness for sikhs?* Kam krodh Lob Moh Ahankar* are our enemies we should judge our efforts in spreading skihi and it's rehat against Them. does our views and actions depict anger against other or arrogance of our being good then them? Let your concience judge it.

Sat Shri Akal


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## devinesanative (Oct 10, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

Dear DAS Ji

I have read all the posts on this forum , I thought you to be a scholar of great perception and thoughts having the ability to put forth the comments in a beautiful way ........

But what's this , You Say about PATITS.

How do you Define Patits ?

Do you believe there is believer and Disbeliver ?

Can you seperate the Believer and Disbeliever ?

What is PATITS ?

Who is Patitis ?

How is Patits ?

You know why people don't listen to scholars , because the  phillosophies of scholars contracdict each and every time , and that confuses the people ........

Let me tell you marriage is just certificate for legitimate relationship to have civilized society.

What's Important in marriage is the Meeting of two Souls , marriage of two souls ? 





			
				vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh
> 
> Das can say it is good to Ban marrige of Patits in Gurudwara but let Sahijdharis like from Hindu or Muslims or other non Sikh family can be allowed to use Gurudwaras for Marrige as per Anand Karaj Ceromony.
> 
> ...


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## hpluthera (Oct 10, 2005)

Every Khalsa is a Sikh but every Sikh need not be Khalsa.  The order of Khalsa was established by Guru Gobind Singh ji for some necessity of the time and as the time arise the same can be again promoted.  Sikhism as a Religion is not enslaved by the image of Khalsa but by Naam Simran as enshrined in the Guru Granth Sahib.  I do not understand why some elements insist more on Kakars than on Naam.  It is just line Janou Guru Nanak had to resist.  If Kakars were so important then why Guru Gobind singhji added the same in the Guru Granth Sahib like Quoran.

Spirtuality in Sikhism is the best amongst all religions of the world but these all add on from outside the Granth Sahib is confusing not only for Sikhs of today but for others.  

Sikh History and Army legacy has great significance and no parrelel for sacrifice and truth ful living.  Unfortunately the image is abused today by many.

In today's world we have soft Khalsas and carry symbolic hair, Kirpan or one or two other symbols.

Why our religious leaders want to create Muslim like environment amongst Sikhs.  There is no shura.

Bani Guru naam Simran, Sikhi as defined in the SGGS is sufficient to preach and follow the Sikh ism as religion forget add on as the bsic fundamental to Sikhi they are options and let those be optional as Guru Gobind singh ji Did.  Did He say that those who have not taken Amrit are not Sikhs any more?  If he did then today's leaders may be right otherwise they are some outside infiltrators amongst Sikhs who want to restrict growth of Sikhi and are its first enemies.

Guru appealed sikhs to take Amrit he did not force.  Guru Granth Sahib has defined the Sikh and Sikhi in its many verses and so has Bhai Gurdas.  Sikhs may keep Khalsa as their ultimate roop but not the fundamental necessity.
Weed out those who are restricting or trying to keep Sikhs away from Gurbani, Gurus and Gurdwaras -they should be thrown out of the Institutions first to clean up and promote the Sikhi.
HP Luthera




			
				manvinder said:
			
		

> When a child does some mischief best way and i think all will agree is to tell him with love and affection that this is wrong and realise him what is right. We don't through him out of house. As a adult sikh one should be aware that he or she has to get amrit but in present times as we see most of young one don't keep kesh. aren't they childern of god so should we through them out of the house of God? As some of the members are angry with sikhs who cut hairs and they show there anger. won't those who are thrown out of gurudawara have anger and resentment and will we be justified in doing that to people who are misguided instead of educating and motivating them?( different means personal and community can be used) we shoud not judge people from our point of view ever one has his own maturity and we should make efforts to enlighten people for adapting to sikhi rehat. I know a person who was studying in Nagpur and he was harrased by police because he had kept a flowing beard but he never got hisbeard cut but when he returned back to punjab and was trying to get marrried he was not getting any proposals and he had to cut his beard and then got married? so what you say? do we need extreme penalities to spread sikhi rehat or extreme educaton and awareness for sikhs?* Kam krodh Lob Moh Ahankar* are our enemies we should judge our efforts in spreading skihi and it's rehat against Them. does our views and actions depict anger against other or arrogance of our being good then them? Let your concience judge it.
> 
> Sat Shri Akal


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 11, 2005)

Gurfateh

Dear devinesanative,

As it happens in Military that one who can not remain in service due to personal weakness and runs away so do in Gurmat if some one due to persoanl weaknes can not obey the order of Guru as per least code of conduct is apostate or Patit or like we we have deserters in Army.

We have punishments of desreters in Amry in disgrace so same could be with the Patit.

A Patit is fre to defect to others faith but like a deserters has no place in Army so Pati can not be a Sikh.

Some examples are Sirgumm(what you call Mona or 'un'Clean Shvaen).Kliier of female child or user of tobacco or Halal food or one who commit adultary.

As Gurmat is practical faith so what we are indoctrine we put into practise so if say in Army some one does not gather at compulsary parade each morning whih is ofetn useless that person is deemed as breacker of dicpline and Neem or rules are must for any communtiy or group so is Gurmat.

As erson who breaks the rule an not be loayal to the hilosohy or mission of the institution .
Das hope you have understood that people who lack faith turn Patit.

Coming to 5ks.AS by respected HP Luthra Ji.

Das would like to say that in his own example that he has not converted into Gurmay from Hindusim due to Bani of Guru Granth Sahib Ji but of Shri Dasham Granth Sahib Ji and Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji.

Till first Nine Gurus Kes were only with Guru but Tenth master made his followers as his own from and for that he needed to more vloume of Holy Scripture to le us be form of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

As Guru was leader and we enthused leadership in us or made us Sirdar or Singh or Lion so veryly a figgther and a political ruler in Democaric set up of Khalsa was to be having Extra qualities then Sikhs who were very good saintly householders but also in a proces to be ruler whicj Tenth Guru made them realise.


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## devinesanative (Oct 11, 2005)

Dear Das Ji

Honestly tell me , as per your defintion of Patits ?

Did you ever not committed any sort of Patit Acitivities ..........


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## hpluthera (Oct 11, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

Sikhs and Khalsa are two different aspects of Sikhi.
Sikhism is the path of naam and Spiritualaity.
Khalsa is the order of Spiritual Army - Saint Soldiers.
Those (ver few) are indeed Khalsas we salute them and they as True Khalsa should inspire other Sikhs to become Khalsa by their good deeds and Karams. Not by caiming to be a superior race of Sikhs hence Thekedars and dictate their terms for who shoul come to Gurdwara and who not etc. It is Sarb Sanjhi Bani Sanjhi Wal"  Thos in Sikh forum talk like this infact non Sikhs just Bshurupiay not Khalsas.  They want to scare away majority from Gurudwarsa and misuse the conrol for various non religious and corrupt activities.

Be cautioned.
HP Luthera


			
				S|kH said:
			
		

> Alright, now I have a little time on my hands, I shall post my views.
> 
> I am in favor of this ban.
> 
> ...


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## devinesanative (Oct 11, 2005)

Dear DAs Ji 

Very nice ………….. 

So , this is the definition of patit according to you ………..

Dear Friend , Don’t narrow down the meaning of Sikhi , with your narrow mindset ………

Just Imagine yourself 500 years back , and imagine Yourself to be a hindu  , the era of GuruNanak Dev Ji , ok 

As per your definition you would have called GuruNanak Dev ji as Patit ………..

If it is so then there are many Great People who are Patits according to you ……

Guru Nanak Dev ji,
All the 10 Gurus,
Kabir
Budhdha 
Socrates
Laotse
Mohammed
And Many great Seers
Ram
Krishna

If it is so then here it is the new definition of patit 

As it is said that words are an empty container , and the meaning lies in the people who use it …..

From the above we can conclude that all the above people rejected the dogmas prevalent in the society and thus helped to simplify the living of the people.

New Definition :

Patit : A person of great Intellectual and Sprititual understanding who rejects the dogmas prevalent in the society and thus simplifies the living of the people in a civilized society in the guidance of AKAL ………

As it is said 

Hindu anna , turko kana 

And Here I amend this line like this

Hindu anna , turko kana
Sikh bhi hai ek Murkh sayana


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 12, 2005)

Gurfateh

Well dear devinesanative,

It is better that you go and have a sort of arguement with Guru Gobind Singh Ji who wrote,

Marks of Sikhis are letters Five ks and no pardoniing on them and this is as per the old tradtion.

Das has read this and due to the faith in the word of Guru kept that.

Das respect AKJ people with thier faith as wityh faith also truth can be ralised and easer then logic.

As per Gurmat of Tenth Master Budha and Mahveers are not valid(See Dasham Granth).

Das agrees to to you and respect your views if you behold gurmat as Dogma but das can say
thatb neither of the person told by below at any time have kept five ks and intitated into Sikhism and then cut their hairs or say used tobacco or commited adultary or eaten Halal.

Das would like to you tom read Islam in it is said that to shave is a sin when we are on pilgrimage.If some hing is sin during pilgrimage as it undermines its effect.

As per orthodox Church see thier Padris(Das sister in law is russina and her parential family is still from that faith),They never cut thier hairs or shave.They when saw Das as Sikh thiught that das has become thiewr Padri type.

In jews you need to understand about Samson.

Lastly as per Manusamriti if some punishment is to be given then beared and hairs are shaved.

Lastly both the Sau Sakhis tell

Puratan Hindus or Forefathers of Hindus never shaved at all(proof is that no such shavinbg intrument discovered from vedic time Aryans as far as Das knows).And Sikhim is its revival(Bije Mukt Sakhi Dasvi).

As per Mangal Prakash,

In past all people use to warship Akal and had uncut hairs,King Nanda,a Budhist force them to shave .

Coming back to isue of baning mariige in Gurudwaras by Patits Das has already said that this will encourage them to go to Pandits and they may give up Gurmat foreever while otherwise they may make thier childern a Sikh.

Das also wants to say that Nirmalas semnaires to whioch das is Attached due allow Patits to have Nam Daan(way to rember God).

Yet Patit Can never,Never be called a Sikh as rebel can not be a patriot.Yes we can teach a rebel patriotism.

Sikhi did not start from First 
Master but from Akal since universe was created by Akal by Akal's own self.

Ram And Krishna can be Sikh but same can not be true for Budha who refused to recoganise God altoghater and told to good by self to give birth to ego so service to universe concept was defeated by ego.

Das refuses to accept your defination as you are saying that a person himself/herself is doing all while in Gurmat all deeds are from Akal.

Also das finds it anti Gurmat the way you have tried to disfigure the Gurbani by adding your own verses in verse by God.

In fact your own verses are from God but are not in Guru Granth Sahib Ji which we as our guide for truth.

And by the mercy of Akal after becoming Sikh das can say without any reluctance that he has not done anything out side the code of conduct as given to him by Tenth Master at the end of Dasham Granth neither did he disresepcted 5 ks nor used any of the 4 hs. or adultary.

When das was Hindu he used to smoke and drink and shave also and often ate Halal(not in his house but in maternal side when das was young).And might have used Hinna or dye also but no Adulatray but after becoming Sikh Das has not donre done Anti To Faith as told by Guru.

If you want to start a new Faith like Radhswamis or Nirankaris Das will Welcome you.

Yuor acts are acts by God as God in you wants to enjoy the feeling of a rebel but there could be chaos if all are rebel.

Best of Luck but after you what you said will become a sort of rule or ritual for what you did and said for you followers and then there will another  devinesanative who will challenge your sayings.

As per Karl marx this tihng seems to be OK Thesis,Anti Thiese and Synthese and that Synthies becomes another theseis and another Anti Thesis to it.

Das can say that one without 5ks or Patit can also get salvation yet thye can not be termed as Sikh.

Reason is that Akal make us its own form as Khalsa and Akal by self is making us to stick to illogical 5Ks to let the world know that these are the one who have no brain of thier own and no body either as all belong to Akal.

In Nirmalas there were Kachu Katiyas or Chaku Katiaya who had mentality like you so some other sects also.
http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/article_samparda_kachoo.html

Who had menatilty like you They were respected by Sikhs but could not be termed as Sikh they were more Nanak Naam Leva,Nanak Panthi or Nanak Shahi.

Das can respect your views but can not agree to  you at any cost.

St Kabir was told to chose death or giving his life so did happened to many of our Gurus And Sikhs but they alsways choose thier faith as govewrned by Akal.

Das has yet to see those people who cutn thier hair to court girl freind to to adjust in western life becoming our guide.

All philosophies even Nazis(who belived that comibintion of idealogies or invating new one) or Communist also who aimed at end of state and faith did makre ruled and adhered as without rules there has to be an anarchy and clashes.

So even if Sikhs and others followe there faith as tolod by God to them then there culd not be clash between humans and no violence.

Das can give you an example.

by rule we use wheat to meet our energy requirements.

Alchohal can do the same but after treatment.

A scintest can experiment and see that if it works and otherwise it can be fatal also.

So if you want to expiriment by making your own kind of Sikhism and want to be a prophet you are most welcome.

But as a Khalsa who follows Guru without question as Kabir did to Ramanada and As Guru Nanak Did it with Gurubar Akal we ourself enjoy the status of Guru/Avtar/Prophet collectively and till you follow  the Guru you can not be one of us.

One has to kill his/her individual ego and to be a part of team called brotherhood of Khalsa then thus state of Khalsa is reached.

Yuo can be a Guru of your own type of Sikhism but even when Alchohal can become substitue of wheat people may still use wheat and Alchohal can not replace it as no one knows after efftects while wheat(Gurmat) is time tested since universe was made.

Das has followed what Guru said and will follow the same .Weather he is termed as Radical or narrow minded or pig or dog Das does not care.

Das does not have to worry about it as Guru keeps worrys of all and does what is Good for all.No man by self can do anything but God does and we are tools only.

Das is not going personal and tenders an apology if something wrong is writtan but Das could make outn that you have an urge to start a fresh a new idealogy of your own then following the Path set up in past on which many moved and got salvaged.Any indesipline can devitate us from that path.

This is very Good and das wish you a success.May you make your own path and we will respect you but as a Great man but not as a Sikh till you do not follow code of conduct and by your personal weakness if you can not follow that Path or can not realise the God by it then it may not means that others have the similar expirances.

If someone fails an exam then that persona must not think that all others are failures.


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## devinesanative (Oct 12, 2005)

Dear Das Ji ,

*Ok , Go and Ban it !*

Do let us know what you are gong to Ban next ?

I have many more questions to ask you But ......... Wait .............

I humbly request that please don't try to bring the Hindu mentality to Sikhism..... Otherwise it will be called as ..............

Sikhism to Bannism !

edited for reducing the font size...........


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## devinesanative (Oct 12, 2005)

Dear Thekedars and Contractors of Sikhism

Answer these questions the list not exhaustive ...........

If it is so then why ............

Why there is So much Corruption in Sikhism ?

Why At the time of Selection of Pradhan in Gurudwaras People fight Like Children and bring our swords to kill each other ?

Why sikhs are leaving india and settling abroad ?


Why Sikh families are not willing to marry their daughters to the Indian guys why they are running after NRIs ?


Why Sikhs are running After STATUS ?

WHY Sikhs ARe running After REPUTATION ?

Why Sikhs Always Run After MONEY ! MONEY ! 

Why Sikh families demand CLEAN SHAVEN GUY ?

Why SIkhs go to BABAS to do SOMe MIRacles ?


there are many more I will post ...........


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## devinesanative (Oct 12, 2005)

dear Das ji

As it is a common trend that people believe those who present with facts :

Here is a content from the front page from the website :
www.srigurugranthsahibji.com

God is love and love is God. As God cannot be confined, restricted or limited to any particular
creed, cult, race, similarly Religion of love cannot
be restricted or confined in geographical limits
and boundaries. Sri Guru Nanak Sahib's Religion
of Love is cosmic and universal in its appeal,
holy folds and dimensions.

It is a Religion of perfect and universal Love
totally free from man-made barriers of colour, caste, creed and status. It is a Religion which radiates with a deep thirst for the Divine and
with the highest gospel of purity of heart,
mind, body, speech and deeds.

It is a Religion which establishes brotherhood of
the whole global community irrespective of colour, caste, creed, race and nationality purely on the basis and foundation of love and equality,
all being the children of the same lovable God.God is love and love is God. As God cannot be confined, restricted or limited to any particular
creed, cult, race, similarly Religion of love cannot
be restricted or confined in geographical limits
and boundaries. Sri Guru Nanak Sahib's Religion
of Love is cosmic and universal in its appeal,
holy folds and dimensions.

It is a Religion of perfect and universal Love
totally free from man-made barriers of colour, caste, creed and status. It is a Religion which radiates with a deep thirst for the Divine and
with the highest gospel of purity of heart,
mind, body, speech and deeds.

It is a Religion which establishes brotherhood of
the whole global community irrespective of colour, caste, creed, race and nationality purely on the basis and foundation of love and equality,
all being the children of the same lovable God.


Is this just to protray the image of Sikhism to the outside world only . or It is really practised and followed ?


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## hpluthera (Oct 13, 2005)

vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> Gurfateh
> 
> I am trying to make a point that Order of Khalsa is independent of Sikhi.  It is step forward but the fundamental necessity to be a Sikh.  Divin.  ji quoted the Hindu Ana, Turak Kana, and twisted the other line second line stays correct Sabna ton Gyani Syana. Gyani doesn ot mean a Amrit Chhakka Bhai but a wise enlightened person.
> 
> ...


I am trying to make a point that Order of Khalsa is independent of Sikhi.  It is step forward but the fundamental necessity to be a Sikh.  Divin.  ji quoted the Hindu Ana, Turak Kana, and twisted the other line second line stays correct Sabna ton Gyani Syana. Gyani doesn ot mean a Amrit Chhakka Bhai but a wise enlightened person.

Amrit is a vow Sikhi is a spiritual path.  Sikh has to live a Sant Ka Marg Dharam Ki Pauri  and Every one does not even get that Ko vadbhagi Pavey.  May I ask that those who are AmritDhari Sikhs are Superior kind in Sikh Dharam in any way.  Rehat Piyari Mo Ko Sikh Piyara Nahi.
How about the total Rehat.  Behrupia Khalsas are more in existence than real.
and that is because the Spirituality  saint hood is absent from today's majority Khalsa.  Extremism glorification to violence without sacrifice or humility are today's Khalsas I see in many Gurudwaras who fight for petty positions and egos.  What are those models.  Bani is to wash and Gurus took themselves 200 years to wash and left behind SGGS to continue to do the washing process.  Spread Bani and let your children read and know the Sikhs History correctly other things will automatically come in place.

Khalsa Has History of great sacrifice Valorous Deeds and Sainthood.  That will teach children to follow the path of Khalsa not insistence of Symble and imposition of Bans and exclusion from society.  It is Murkh thinking of low wisdom and intellect.  Acceptance and embrace give the oppurtunity to communicate and explain in perfect way.  Whole of India accepted Sri Guru Nanak Devji and His Bani and then some people who did not like it glorified Sikhs only as Khalsas and others less Sikhs.  Khalsa is like UN Force set by Guru Gobind Singh ji in whose presence Hindus, Women and other weaker section of society always felt safe.  Khalsa was a symble of Honesty in British Raj( AS I have read and heard from my elders) That in courts any evidence given by Khalsa was taken as Final and Truth even without oath.  In all over europe the the tourist guide had the reference till 1980's that if you get lost in India and Seek hel of a Sikh they are most dependable people.  Khushwant singh wrote that Sikhs are uncredentialed ambassadors of India all over the world.  If you want the Khalsa to be Glorified punish those who in the Garb of Khalsa commit all those sins and tarnish the image of Khals not those who walk away from Khalsa hood to soft sikhs.  I feel the soft Sikhs are more responsible as if they could not live up to Khalsa Character they did not continue to pretend and be hypocrats.  In today's world and ever changing society the Life with five K's is if not impossible, it is indeed very difficult and can restrict your life style.
regards

HP Luthera
Dear devinesanative,


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 15, 2005)

Gurfateh

Das is sorry that respected DSe Ji have took that Das is opposing that Patits be not allowed in Gurudwaras for Marrige as Just have look on first post by Das in this thread.

Das is appreihancive that ban can lead to going to patits into fold of Brahmins and thier conversion to Hinduism due to that.


Then comes your questions.

Das is sure that you are a Punjabi.


What das knows of Gurmat that once a Sikh then no longer Bihari or Punjabi.

Problems which are been encountered are not by Sikhs but Punjabis in the grab of Sikhs who have brought thier Jattism or similar racial or regioanl things in Panth and act as bullies.

Hinduism has reduced from best Aryan faith into regianal Indian thing which was previously in whole of the world.

Reason is thier tolrance to non sence.

Like Yagnas or Vedas etc. oppose idolatories but at present there are many temples where Holy Vedas and Yagnas are done with idols.

So Panth can not tolrate hypocracy or intolrance to non sence.This is the way did Islam surved in Hindu Majority India.

Das would like to say that Sikhs in Deccan(south India;s native) and say in Bihar are very much particular in this regard.They can marry in non Sikh and without problem have good reations with them but there is no record of thier tolrating Patits so they survive still and better than in Punjab.

Even they do not doubt Gurus saying and with commitment follow it and as a result Holy Dasham Granth and Sarbloh Granth are respected there.

In Punjab das can say that if instituions like Damdami Taksal and Sant Samaj can be encouraged then many problems can be solved but they must have large amount of missionaries like S. Gurbax Singh Ji missiorieis in them acting as a safegurad from ritualism falling in.

There is a need of integrated approach devotion by sants and knoweldge by missioniers and then only in Punjab or natives punjab people Gurmat can survive but it will forever survive in west or in rest of the India or in Arebia where Sikhs follow Guru with devotion.

Civilisation or Culture or Nations are amde of rule of law or self decipline else primitive statege still exist in many part of the world.

Das is soory if he hurt you and forgive him but Das wants to say that patits can be allowed to come to Gurudwara and be given a chance to undo thier wrong doing but till then they are not Sikhs(female can be pragenet or not Pragnent and no half way).

In past holy people opposed anrachy created by vested interest who were misinterpreting faith for thier personal goals and so after removing evil they restored order.

Yes there are many pakhandis in Panth who have made panth even more ridid then Brahmins and unfit for practical life.

As many of our young find people not followinf such code yet roaring that they are true Sikhs.Young people tend to think that this faith is a hypocracy and unfit to follow.

That is not the fault of Faith.

If you have faith in Akal who is in All(Read Dasham Granth From Gobind Sadan.org).if youare furtunate that Akal does mrecy on you then Das is sure that you will get the reply of most of the question you have asked.

It is simple that Guru told us to not meet Minas,Masands,Sirgums,DheerMaliyas or Ramrayas as they did the same as many of the punjabis in guise of Sikhs are doing.

Gurmat is neither Indian or Punjabi but universal.

Killing of female is Bad universal,so is adultary,so usage of Tobacco ,so is not seing God in All(Blood is life and flesh is not is the reason of Halal whihch would have been of Jesus)so is concealing the effect of nature on us by dyeing our berad and soit is Bad to remoe hairs which God in Guru told us to keep.

Das prepeats that patit can get salvation bbut Can not be a Khalsa.


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## kds1980 (Oct 15, 2005)

wjkk
wjkf

   if a sikh cuts his hair then who is he.is he a hindu.if we beleive that sikhism is a religion then we have to accept everybody inculding patits


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## hpluthera (Oct 15, 2005)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*



			
				CaramelChocolate said:
			
		

> There is nothing wrong with a discussion but do not get personal.


 
All Sikhs oppose such a ban  and I wonder who has initiated it and where.  In india more Sikh youngsters have cut hair than overseas.  Almost all Sikh leaders with flowing long beards have their sons or grandsons clean shaven,  Majority of Guru Dwaras overseas are having Management Committees with all Monas.  So where from and by who this ban is imposed.  AS isn Christianity lot of splinter groups made their own churches so will happen in Sikhism due to such talks.  Guru Nanak's Prachar for Sikhi was and is to include every one and teach Guru Gobind Singh's Order of Khalsa was to create a Force who protect all not only those who are Khalsas.  Guru Teg Bahadur Sacrificed his life for Hindu Brahmin to protect their Tilak and janau and they were Gurus guests and were given separate Kitchen to cook their meals and not eat from Langar.  Read History of Sikhs by DR. Sangat Singh.  Who are these people who spread such kind of non Sikh philosophy.  They are the elements who do not want to let Sikhism grow and are trying to take over Sikh institutions by wearing hypocratic Robe of Khalsa and misuse the Guru dwaras for wrong purpose not for Gurbani Parchar.  They will break up Sikhs and sacrifice tolerence and sacrifice spirit of Khalsas and Sikhs so Dear brothers be ware of them.  Some years back Naxalites did this to our youth and institutions and many Marxist Communists have exploited our youths to commit nurders and crimes of political nature.  Now there are groups of Human Smugglers who wish to take over Punjab Lands by scaring away and misguiding our youngsters by excluding them or making then intolerent to others an extremists and preaching Sikhism as near to Islamist beliefs.  Beware this will lead to a great damage to our next generation. 

 No guru dwara be allowed to exclude any one rather identify those who talk like this and exclude them.  We have enemy with in in garb of extreme thinking sterio type claimant of being a superior Sikh -Amritdhari. 

Gurbani preaches to embrace all bless all for their welfare and then grace them with naam to aaccept the command of guru but if you do not let him close to Guru -whose parents might have failed to do the task or his circumstance s did that how can he know his Guru.  

I think the Gurdwara which imposes such a ban should be declared "persona non grata" Not a Sikh Institution but and Adda of Gangs of anti Sikh beliefs.  This will be the place where all illegal ant national and other activities will be more likely happening.  If you want to be certain just investigate the background of the management Committees.

HP


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## hpluthera (Oct 15, 2005)

If Tail of a Cow is cut does she become a donkey,


			
				kds1980 said:
			
		

> wjkk
> wjkf
> 
> if a sikh cuts his hair then who is he.is he a hindu.if we beleive that sikhism is a religion then we have to accept everybody inculding patits


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## drkhalsa (Oct 15, 2005)

> All Sikhs oppose such a ban and I wonder who has initiated it and where. In india more Sikh youngsters have cut hair than overseas. Almost all Sikh leaders with flowing long beards have their sons or grandsons clean shaven, Majority of Guru Dwaras overseas are having Management Committees with all Monas. So where from and by who this ban is imposed. AS isn Christianity lot of splinter groups made their own churches so will happen in Sikhism due to such talks. Guru Nanak's Prachar for Sikhi was and is to include every one and teach Guru Gobind Singh's Order of Khalsa was to create a Force who protect all not only those who are Khalsas. Guru Teg Bahadur Sacrificed his life for Hindu Brahmin to protect their Tilak and janau and they were Gurus guests and were given separate Kitchen to cook their meals and not eat from Langar. Read History of Sikhs by DR. Sangat Singh. Who are these people who spread such kind of non Sikh philosophy. They are the elements who do not want to let Sikhism grow and are trying to take over Sikh institutions by wearing hypocratic Robe of Khalsa and misuse the Guru dwaras for wrong purpose not for Gurbani Parchar. They will break up Sikhs and sacrifice tolerence and sacrifice spirit of Khalsas and Sikhs so Dear brothers be ware of them. Some years back Naxalites did this to our youth and institutions and many Marxist Communists have exploited our youths to commit nurders and crimes of political nature. Now there are groups of Human Smugglers who wish to take over Punjab Lands by scaring away and misguiding our youngsters by excluding them or making then intolerent to others an extremists and preaching Sikhism as near to Islamist beliefs. Beware this will lead to a great damage to our next generation.
> 
> No guru dwara be allowed to exclude any one rather identify those who talk like this and exclude them. We have enemy with in in garb of extreme thinking sterio type claimant of being a superior Sikh -Amritdhari.
> 
> ...


 

Dear Hpluthera ji


I would like to say something about it . I know that you might be senior then me in age and have known sikhi more than me but there are some points in your post that I dont agree so I thought of sharing with you forgive me I say something that seems inaapropiate may be due to my lack of knowledge as we all here to learn

Imposing a ban seems ridculous to me as well but still I have some feeling that go for the ban I would like to explain it 

I dont agree to your point that Khalsa is special force and they were made to protect others and you can just follow what other guru JI has said and Khalsa was just special invention of tenth guru to tackle the situation of that time and does not hold good now . As considred widely by many scholars of sikh faith and personaly by me as well that Khalsa was the final product of formation of SIKHI that started with Guru Nanak Dev ji it was kind of 200 year plus mission which culminated in the formation of sikhi it was the final desired product and not just biproduct of sikh revolution in human history and just to add Rehatnamas which were derived from Bani Of Dasam Pathsha Guru Gobind Singh ji clearly says about the physical appearance of a sikh . All this confusion in our community about what to follow what not has a ROOT in the nonacceptance and ignorance of sikh commnity of the BANI of Guru Gobind Singh ji and this confusion will go on until this issue is resolved

Now I agree with you that Teaching of GuruGranth Sahib is for whole humanity and is and should be available to every body 

I agree with you that that by just keeping kakaars some one doesnot become pious then someone who do very good deeds but is not with kakaars . Infact it is good thing infact if somebody who is amritdhari and do some thing antigurmat you point out that this man even being guru ka sikh has done such shameful act . No how will you point out a man who belongs to nothing  ( short hair , cut surds ) !! YOu cant ! becuse such man cant be held accountable ( this is what is called NIGURA by Nihang Sikh) for what he do .
So being Gursikh with Kakaars is just Pledging that from now on I will try to follow my gurus teaching and he becomes accountable for what he do 
And the beauty of Guru Gobind Singh ji Act of creating khalsa lies in this only you cant hide yourself IF you are guru ka Sikh because such is your appearance and this help you to lead pious life .This is very parallel to situation in our Guru jis Time  Many  peopel who were not brave enough would just turn their away from guru in difficult times and they will say that they are just hindu not sikh , at the time their enemy was mughal army  and in present world the situation is same and now the enemy is Temptaions ( Drugs , Adultery , crime ) of modern civilisation  and in such situation as well it is easy for someone who is not following sikh in physical form to faal for for it as he is not accoutable and as every body is doing it then whats wrong in it

Just to make it short physical is the essential for follwing sikh religion as it help you in your spirtual journey and makeds you r accountable to what you do . I agrre with you that people are abusing this thing by just keeping kakaars and doing every thing antigurmat but the good thing is such corrupt people become so visibel to you and you can do something about it but think what of they become invisible and unaccountable for what they they do then it will be more difficult to tacle them 



> Gurbani preaches to embrace all bless all for their welfare and then grace them with naam to aaccept the command of guru but if you do not let him close to Guru -whose parents might have failed to do the task or his circumstance s did that how can he know his Guru.


 
Totally agree with you here but the issue we are disscusing here is different Khalsa Ji We are not disscusing about barring anybody from visting Gurdwara but when they come to marry somebody there , when they try to fool their Guru ji by tying a turban on cut hair , when they try to look like a sikh , when they dont shave for couple of days so that turban does not look odd on face , when the first thing they do after ANAND Karaj is to go and remove their turban and get good shave 
do you think that such a person is there to utiliae this oppertunity to lcome close to guru ji ( which their parent failed to do )

Still I wont say that they should be banned as this again anti gurmat but such a weeding hurt me for sure and I think at such a accasion the couple should be counselled and made aware of what they are doing instead of banning them 

As compared to this as suggested by Vijaydeep Singh I would welcome marriageds of our hindu brothers in gurdwara as it could be one time chance for them to be close to Guru Ji and make a change in their life 

When you Compare the sikh beliefs with islamic beliefs I can see nothing wrong in it

In present day world IF islam has put in bad picture this doesnot mean that ISlAM on the whole is  bad or Crap  this would be most unscientific way look at it . Their is no Doubt that there are many many beautiful thing That still exist in islam are source of inspiration . Even my Muslim friend agree that the current picture of islam is due to Mullas ( Religious preacher) belong to most Dumb  group of society as educated people and intelligent people dont want to become reilgious leader so all the dumb and school dropouts get to become mullas and then they use their little brain to manpulate message of islam 

The same thing is undeway in SIKHISM where most of our granthis and Bhaijis are uneducated and if you think that by propagating your message that its okay to be Cut Hair sikh and Being Physically gursikh is not neccasry then we are going down the same line as Islam went 1000 Years back As in islam there is Physical code accordin g to shariat law and every Muslim use to follow ( long beared , specific mustache and wearing clothes in lower part of body above ankle )it strictly and then they strated making excuses and the result today is that only mullas follow it and other people have lost control because they lost there power as they dont follow what Prophet  Muhamed  told them to do  so now they are on mercy of mullas and what mullas have done to islam every body knows 






Jatinder Singh


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## devinesanative (Oct 16, 2005)

Thoughout the SPN forum postings , there is a lot of contracdictions by many scholars , one scholar at one time says something else then at the other at other time at the another post says something else .......

Sorry , Das ji , your postings also contradict with your own postings ..........

It has become really confusing whom to believe and whom not to believe.........

Dear Drkhalsa ji below is your post borrowed from the book of Gurbax Singh Ji , which you yourself has posted, and your above post contradicts with this post ..........

_excerpt from the post by DRKhalsa "Sikhism Misunderstood" by Gurbax Singh _

_Now to conclude, it can be said safely, without any fear of contradiction that Guru Nanak laid the foundation of a non-sectarian, universal faith for the whole humanity, not just another religion. Unfortunately, those who claim to follow it, have mis-understood it and describe it only as modern religion or at the most a happy blend of what is good in Hinduism and Islam. Further it has been limited to the rituals of doing or not doing something and eating or not eating certain foods. it is limited sometimes to the identity (5 K's) given to the followers which is to express their conviction in the faith and not faith itself. Sikhism cannot be confined to these narrow bounds. It is not just a new religion; it is a way of life for the new man-the man who believes all men are brethren and children of the same God and its mission is to work for the welfare of all and when the occasion demands to sacrifice his all for this ideal._



If external form is more important than the Internal Form , Then to be a doctor , what a person should do is , just buy a doctors apparel , a Stethoscope and some doctors tool and start practising............


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## devinesanative (Oct 16, 2005)

Guru Gobind Singh Ji , was really a True Guru with great Vision , and he knew that what is going to happen in the future .........

It can be just imagined ! 

What would have happend had he not stopped the Guru System in the human Form ?

Other wise , there would have been a strong fight over being the Next Guru ........................ ,

And the eruption and mushrooming of Babas and Sants would have cause much damage , Every one could have claimed to be the next Guru .........


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## kds1980 (Oct 16, 2005)

wjkk
wjkf

     dear dr.khalsa ji i agree with the statement of hpluthera ji that khalsa was a special force to protect the others.one of the biggest example is bhai
nand lal .bhai nand lal was a sikh wrote rehatnamas but he didn't took amrit
himself.

     now about your point of teaching of guru granth sahib is for everyone i disagree .it is only for sikhs.any person who beleives guru granth sahib its liviing guru is sikh.please tell how can a muslim
or christian follow guru granth sahib when they don't beleive in reincarnation while guru granth sahib clearly says that all your sufferings are due to your past lives karmas.similarly how can a orthodox hindu follows a guru granth sahib when guru granth sahib condemns idol worship.those who beleives in guru granth sahibs teaching are sikhs.


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## drkhalsa (Oct 16, 2005)

Dear Devine senative JI

Thanks for your input and I ask for forgiveness for causing the confusion to you

With Akal ji Kirpa I have recently stated looking into sikhism and so I have evry basic knowledge of the facts and could be wrong at many things and I would like o improve on it 
I could not understand Your calling various people Scholar or something if you call such names sarcastically i wonder how it helps you but doesnot help anybody like me who is having vary basic knowledge in sikhi but fr sure there few Singhs here on Forum how can be rightly called scholar like Vijaydeep Singh 
Now you said I contradict at various places on the forum there are two pint i would like to share 

1 Many of my post on this forum are not present my personal thoughts but to start and disscuss various issues so that we can draw some conclusion and ;earn from them so I dont think there is any reason that I should oppose or defend writings of varios Gursikhs that are posted by me 

2. Even if I post my own vies on the forum they are bound to change with time infact they even change from day to day basis as i learn more i tend to change my views and consider it a learning process so just in plain word i am not a teacher of some revered text that cant contradict itself 

the example you gave me of that actually I could not appreciate as still what you highlighted I think is written for sikha that they are made to serve humanity and it is way of life so a way of life can have some rules or you think that way of life doesnot need any rules . I might be missing the point you are making so please explain me again 

You gave very excellent example of doctor and and his prfession
In case of these are ( white coat and stethoscope ) are like external form by which you recognize him (it easy to spot a doctor with these forms)

now being a sikh without becoming khalsa could be compared to man who reads medical books without joing the medical college ( they are available in the market !!) as we get the this white coat on the very first day in medical college and all the five years we taught how to keep up with them and there is sense of responsibilty that one feel while studying in the medical college so your example goes well with  me as well 
as one can read medical books and become even more learned then medical students but he can never be a doctor 
well i agree that there might be some who join the medical school and then they drop out due to poor performance ( this do happen in medical colleges!) and then they start claiming to be doctor obviously this is wrong but does this mean that we should assume that there is no sense of joining the medical college altogether 




> If external form is more important than the Internal Form , Then to be a doctor , what a person should do is , just buy a doctors apparel , a Stethoscope and some doctors tool and start practising............


 
So i would say no external form is not more or less important but the starting point of living gurus way of life because this is how Dasam Pitah ji lived 

Guru Gobind Singh Ji , was really a True Guru with great Vision , and he knew that what is going to happen in the future .........



> It can be just imagined !
> 
> What would have happend had he not stopped the Guru System in the human Form ?
> 
> ...


 
I could not relate your above qoute with topic may i missing the point so kindly explain in more details



Dear kds1980 ji


As said above whenI make some point in forum that is just learn more from othrs input and put my view in right shape 

Thanks for your reply 


> the biggest example is bhai
> nand lal .bhai nand lal was a sikh wrote rehatnamas but he didn't took amrit
> himself


 
well as i know this is misconception that Bhai Nand Lal JI was not amritdhari butinstaed they never changed their name wel this could be topic of further research but i will share the source of refernce abouthe point at the end of post 




> now about your point of teaching of guru granth sahib is for everyone i disagree .it is only for sikhs.any person who beleives guru granth sahib its liviing guru is sikh.please tell how can a muslim
> or christian follow guru granth sahib when they don't beleive in reincarnation while guru granth sahib clearly says that all your sufferings are due to your past lives karmas.similarly how can a orthodox hindu follows a guru granth sahib when guru granth sahib condemns idol worship.those who beleives in guru granth sahibs teaching are sikhs.


 
well Singh ji when I said so I meant that Guru Granth Sahib is source of universal message to man kind now if it contradict there previous belief than obviously it is upto them to believe it or not but it dies not change the universal nature of message just to add that in Guru Granth Sahib Gur ji talk about various practices of muslims , hindus , jains and advise them as well so it shows how guruji intend to guide people of various faith 

now taking a example about the  issue of Earth being round  both Bible and Koran contradicts it but now this leaves a no choice with follwers of the respective faith either to believe the facts or just carry on with  their usual bissuness but it does not change the truth 

About the idol Worship it si prohibited in Vedas ( Great scripture of hindus) and you can confirm this from many independent Hindu sources so you can say that Hindu themselves are not follwing there religion in proper way 

now i will share with you the source i mentioned earlier and it very clearly disscuss this issue 



​*



SAHAJDHARI SIKHS AND KHALSA​By: Kuldeep Singh, Toledo, Ohio​Ex President World Sikh Council – America Region​

Click to expand...

*​*




ABSTRACT​Right from the times of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, the procedure to become a Sikh was to get the Pahul from the Guru and follow the instructions given to them by the Guru. Any member of the congregation (Sangat) who wished to lead a Sikh way of life was free to do so. There were, however, many other members in the Sangat, who were desirous to become a Sikh, but needed more time to fulfill their commitment as a Sikh. Such people were known as "Sahajdhari Sikhs" or "Slow adopters". Many of them paid more attention to the religion in which they were born and ignored some of the fundamental principles of Sikhism. In 1699, when Guru Gobind Singh Ji changed the traditional method of giving ‘Pahul’ into ‘Khandey di Pahul’, he told all the members of the Sangat (Congregation) to adopt this way, if they wish to become part of the new Sangat - Khalsa. Those who followed the instinct of their own mind and ignored this order of the Guru failed to become part of this order.
Introduction: 
Every Religion in this world has one way or the other to initiate or baptize a person, in order to bring him into its fold. In sikhism the baptizing ceremony is called ‘Amrit Chakna’. After being initiated in this ceremony, he is known by the name of Khalsa, and it is said that, he has joined the Khalsa Panth. The collective body of Sikhism is the Khalsa Panth, which is taken to be as the physical body of the Guru, the True Teacher Enlightner. Every Sikh is supposed to be initiated into this fold at a convenient period of his lifetime, when he has practiced enough Sikhism, from the spiritual aspect as well as by servicing the humanity in the name of the Guru. Those Sikhs, who believe in the teachings of Guru Nanak, and follow many commitments of the Sikh way of life, yet they do not keep hair, (which is the first condition in Sikhism); these people are called the Sahajdhari Sikhs.
The purpose of this article is to clarify the misconception that a Sahajdhari Sikh is the one who "practices Sahaj", for achieving "Sahaj Avastha", and by virtue of this practice, he is called as "Sahaj-dhari". This is a misconception. The word "Sahaj", conveys two different meanings; when used as "Sahaj" for the state of mind and "Sahaj" when used as paces of movement. In later case, a suitable example is: "Sahaj pake so mittha hoi, meaning "Slow and steady wins the race".Here meaning of "Sahaj", is with the pace of time. When it is used as the state of mind, it is known as the "Sahaj Avastha", according to the nomenclature of Gurbani. The result of practicing Sahaj is supposed to be the attainment of a state of tranquility of mind. The word "Sahaj" comes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib a number of times. It is a stage that can be achieved by devotedly practicing "Vaheguru-Akalpurakh’s Naam". However, this "Sahaj" of mental faculty is different from the word "Sahaj", indicating the pace of time, which is a mere action, in a span of time. When we say "sahjey sahjey", we mean slowly, and slowly. Therefore, the word "Sahaj" of the complex word "Sahajdhari" is a word, derived from this "Sahaj" of pace of time, which means slowly, and "dhari" means to adopt. Therefore, Sahajdhari Sikh means a slow adopter of Sikhism and has no connection whatsoever with the ‘Sahaj Avastha’ - A stage of unaffectedness or equipoise or tranquility of mind. Therefore to say, that a Sikh who practices Sikhism to achieve Sahaj Avastha, is called a "Sahajdhari Sikh": Is, absolutely Wrong.



Pahul and Khalsa:
During the history of Sikh Gurus, all the Gurus initiated those members of the congregation (Sangat), who expressed a desire to become his Sikh by blessing them with the Pahul (baptizing water). Such Sikhs were called as Guru’s own or the Khalsa because they accepted Guru’s way. That is why they were referred to as Khalsa in the various Hukamnamas not only of Guru Gobind Singh ji but also of Guru Hargobind Sahib and Guru Teghbahadur Sahib ji. Guru’s Sangat, however, remained of those people who belonged to various religions. In 1699 Guru Gobind Singh ji handed over this Pahul giving authority to the Panj Pyaras and changed the "Pahul" into "Khandey di Pahul". The Guru addressed the people who took " Khandey di Pahul" as "Vaheguru Ji ka Khalsa". Kavi Sainapat, who wrote Sri Gur Sobha Granth only two years after the great Amrit ceremony (ie. in 1701) defined the Khalsa thus:
" Manega Hukam so to hovega sikh sahi, ​na manega Hukam so to hovega bihalsa.​Paanch kee kusangat tuj, Sangat saun preet karey,​dya aur dharam dhaar, tyagey subh laalsa.​Hukka na peevaiy, sees dahrhi na mundavey,​so to Vaheguru,Vaheguru,Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa || 31||147||​" mwnygw hukm so qo hovygw is`K shI, n mwnygw hukm so qo hovygw ibhwlsw [​pWc kI kusNgiq qij sNgiq so pRIq kry, dXw Aor Drm Dwir iqAwgy sb lwlsw [​hu~kw nw pIvy, sIs dwhVI nw muNfwvY, so qo vwgurU vwgurU vwgurU jI kw Kwlsw ] 31 ] 147 ] "​Sahajdhari Sikhs and Khalsa Page 1 of 2
" The one who will obey Guru’s order will be a Sikh in true sense, whereas a disobedient person will have nothing to do with the Guru. Those, who will leave the bad company of the five vices, attach themselves to the Sangat (Congregation), adopt a life of devotion to duty and mercy and get rid of greed. Those, who will not use Hukka (Tobacco) and do not shave the hair of head or beard, are the Khalsa of Vaheguru in true sense."
Another important observation came from Bhai Gurdass II in his famous writing:
" Peeo pahul khand-dhaar hoeay janum suhela,​Gur Sangat keeni khalsa, manmukhi duhela….."​" pIE pwhul KNfDwr, hoie jnm suhylw [ gur sNgiq kInI Kwlsw, mnmuKI duhylw [ ​vwhu vwhu goibNd isNG, Awpy gur cylw ] 1 ] "​" Guru told everybody to take Khandey di Paul in order to be successful in your life. Thus a congregation (Sangat) of Khalsa was created and all those who adopted their own ways by following the instinct of their own mind (Manmukh) were not made part of this Sangat. Oh Guru Gobind Singh, You are great "
The congregation (Sangat), however, remained to consist of both Amritdhari, Sahajdhari as well as of those who did not belong to either of these two categories. There were many Sikhs who kept their old last names like ‘Ram’, ‘Lal’, ‘Dass’, ‘Rai’ etc. instead of ‘Singh’ although they all had taken ‘Pahul’ from the Gurus. An important example is that of Baba Dayal founder of Nirankari movement, who made innumerable reforms in nineteenth century. Therefore, it is wrong to say that all those who did not have the last name as ‘Singh’ were all Sahajdharis. Some say that the 52 poets of Guru Gobind Singh Ji were mostly Sahajdharis without giving any substantiation. Bhai Nand Lal ji was one of his most favourite poets, and has the credit of writing a ‘Rehat Naama’, but he never changed his name to Nand Singh.  It is essential to know the history of Guru’s Kavi Darbar(a subject of further research). However, with the knowledge of the available history, it can be assumed that this Kavi Darbar must have double purpose. One to create an interfaith literature in order to improve knowledge about other faiths. Secondly to accommodate many poets who were not allowed writing and/or singing their own poetry. Therefore these poets belonged not only to Sikh religion but also to other religions as well. It was not unusual in those days to have Marasis who were experts in Ragas to sing Gurbani and do Kirtan in Guru Darbar. It was, therefore, left to the Guru Khalsa Panth to reform this in the 21st century and allow only Amritdharis to recite Kirtan, and conduct other affairs in the Gurdwaras. The reason for giving control to the Sahajdharis during Moghul period was because, the Sikhs were not even allowed to come in the cities. The imperial orders were to kill the Sikhs wherever they were found.
" Nanak prastan raa har kuja ki biyabund bkatal rasanad. "​" nwnk pRsqW rw hr kujw ic ibAwbNd bkql rswnd ] "​Indeed they played a very important role during those days because the enemy hunted the Khalsa from place to place and it was extremely difficult for them to look after their places of worship – the Gurdwaras. By the beginning of nineteenth century these Sahajdhari Sikhs became Mahant and have started robbing the wealth of our institutions by keeping all the funds collected for their personal use and attracting Hindu visitors to the Gurdwaras by keeping Hindu deities in the Gurdwaras. These anti Sikh rituals had forced the Khalsa to start a Singh Sabha movement and run our Gurdwaras in a Sikh-like way. The Khalsa wanted to create a Sikh Code of Conduct because all the available Rehatnamas were corrupted with lot of Manmat. A typical example is the Rehatnama of Chaupa Singh Chibber who advocated a preferential treatment to a Brahmin converted to Sikhism and calls a Sikh "Tankhaya", who suggests his wife to take Amrit. Similar amendments are needed in the historical documents produced by people like Kesar Singh Chhiber and Kavi Santokh Singh.
Therefore, in the light of above discussion, it can be presumed that the Sahajdhari Sikh from the time of the Gurus were always welcomed in the congregation (sangat), to earn a time for complete transformation of his mind towards the Guru’s teaching, and finally to get baptized into the fold of Khalsa, the brotherhood, at an earliest opportunity.
Sahajdhari Sikhs and Khalsa Page 2 of 2 


​

Click to expand...

​​​​​​​​Jatinder Singh​​*​​


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 17, 2005)

Gurfateh

Perhaps if respected devinesanative has not understood the message of Das and found contradiction over therre then it fault of das that he could not present his case well to devinesanative so thatdevinesanative cuold understand it.

There are tow things.

who is Patit or Aposatate ie

A person who cuts hair/shaves,commits adultory,Kill female child,Eat Halal or Tobacco or apply Hinna.

That is a rule of Gurmat and proven by both Archelogy(old Books still there )and Historic accounts.

It was rulke for Sikhs in general but some liniacy was givne to Nirmalas,Udasis or Seva Panthis as they were providing preaching and intelligence to Singhs.They were like PRO for Sikhs in Hindus,yogis and Muslim respectivly.

There can be many yes and nos about the logic of it.But Das finds no scripture as yet which state that a Khalsa who takes Sikhi(Can be Baptism) but can not follow it due to personal limitation still can be called Khalsa.

Well if there is some child who gets baptism when he/she was unable to decide about self thasn that persoan can not be called patit nor person with hairs yet to be initiated into Panth.

But a person who bets into Khalsa Brotherhood while being in senses and latter does not follow the code of conduct can not be called the Khalsa and thense being fallen(Patit or Patansheel) from Panth is termed As Patit.

devinesanative quoted from Guru Granth Sahib Ji that Love is the essance but this thing we get from Guru and do follow the same in mind and action.

If Guru tells us to love as devinesanative mentioned we do it as it suits us but when Guru ask us to keep some uniform then we become selactive to our ease.So this itself is not following Guru in full.

As per Dasham Granth and Sarbloh Granth Khalsa is equated with incarnation of Akal in evil Age of Kaliyuga in the form of collective group.

Like former incarnations Rama or Krishna had differnt appearance and diiferant act then rest of the world so we have some differnt workd to be done.Our hair style or disticnt colour need to be suprressed by Beared and Turban and we must look like the same and that also in mind.

Know das hopes that her/his thing regarding Patit contrqavewrcy is over and it does not mean that new defination that tourch bearer of truth or guide be called patit(literally means fallen).

Say if some Amritdhari does adultary or kill feamle child but does not tell but that ius also patit.So Shaving men only becomes visibley fallen while others can be with some other deeds also.

Das hope that is clear.


The other question which was to be adressed was weather to allow patits in Gurudwaras or allow them to marry(By anand Karaj or not) or not.

Das already stated this that if they are banned then there is chance of them or thier generations slipping into other faiths.We can give them a chance to reconvert when ever they want or let thier childern be converted.Das wrote the same in first post of him in this topic.

It need to be claered.

1. Patit is no longer Khalsa.
2. Patit inspite of that can be allowed to visit Gurudwara,Can have Sikh rites if want but like hindu or Muslims are treated eqauly as per Sikhs in Gurudwara in the same light Patit can be treated.By this we give Patit another chance to attian Khalsahood.


As per the knwoledge of das Akal is in all and all can get salvation.Peryhaps patit can get salvation by other way or Patit is not fit to be Khalsa or person who is one with Akal with no individual brain left.

Like all Khalsa have same form as of Guru(no indivudual appearance) so does soul of All Khalsa attains same form of Gurubar Akal with no individual ego of mind.

Das can call patits to rejoin Khalsa if they can but das can say that as per the code followed in Sanatan or orthodox Sikhs mostly out of punjab(But for Taksal,Rara Sahib etc.) act of Khalsa to let patit know that he/she is not one of us is nothing but our encouregement socillay to him or her to rejoin us.

No one one in world can take from us our way to preach our faith to other.

Tankhaya(Even Guru underwent this ) or Patit atre nothing but our way to let world knwo that how we are unique and we do not follow nonesense.

As Luthra Sahib said that there are mnay Gurudwaras all over where patits or Mona are in management.das can say that still there are many Gurudwaras where we have Kesdhari Patits more wioth the pseudo Akalis of today.

Yet there are mnay Gurudwaras run by Khalsa and Sahijdharis(From Hindus or Muslims) But they are termed as Brahmanical.Das can say that election and mony power has cruppted mainstream often due to its origeon in protestants as many(not all) of thenm are also currpt.

Like not wearing jeweelary or make up female is not the form of real or ture Sikhism but was incorprated from protestant Christians.

Das again request devinesanative to understand what das is saying or if he/she can stillnot understand then das will be happy to breach his keyborad for hour or so to satisfy her/his curiosity.

Das can say that due to his removal of Janeu or Yagypaveet and eating beef Das can be termed as Patit as far as his being Hindu but Das is Sikhs.

Personal views of Das are that a person who cuts his hairs and worship the picture or Gurus or worship Holy book like an idol can be otherwise termed as Nanakpanthi Hindu but then too he/she is patit.

If Patit converts to otehr faith then he/she can be Hindu,Muslim or Christian or say athist.

Last thing Das want to put for Guru Granth Sahib Ji Pureist looby that more and more will they try to prove writing of Dasham Granth Sahib Ji and Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji as brahminical assault more and more people will give justification of leaveing Khalsahood by quoting Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru Granth Sahib Ji are made for all human beings and many writers of that may not be Khalsa.

But other two Granths arew made for Khalsa and by Khalsa. Gurubani says Hundreds of cleverness or logic be there but one does not do along side(logic hinders faith if relyed upon it by totality)


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## harpreet kaur (Oct 17, 2005)

sat sri akal
                it is fanticisim like this that puts sikhisim two steps back when it takes one step forward, what will they do next, put a ban on the entrance of anyone who is a mona sikh? no doublt i agree if u are a sikh, and are not embarassed to flaunt your sikhi, then do it all the way, but if u have douts, then why trim and live a lie, get over it, do some soul searching and figure it out once and for all if u are strong enough to be one, thats who a sikh is, an epitome of strength, discipline, honor and virtues with some compassion thrown in, no room for doubts in your beliefs, but does that also mean u must reduce yourself to a level lower than that of islamic fundamentalists who believe anyone outside their religion is a {censored}, a disbeliever, we are targeting our own, look at this situation from the eyes of a three year old and the knowledge of a 70 year old, havent we learnt anything from our past mistakes. there are sikh youth out there who are lost and they need a compassionate hand to guide them not push them away, a little love and compassion can go a long way.


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## devinesanative (Oct 17, 2005)

Dear Das ji ,

As Kabir has Rightly said,

Pothi Padr Padr Jag Mua , Pandit Bhaya na koi .
Dhai Aksar Prem ka padre so Pandi Hoye .



Let Us

Let the invisible love of God,
Emanate from our each action.

Let us seek out and love,
He who needs us.

Let us listen and divide,
The sorrows of the aggreived.

Let us inspire and boost,
The entho of the collapsed.

Let us stand and be there,
In the hour of need.

Let us be more humane,
For the welfare of this world.

Let us, think the world of,
HE WHO lives within each of us.

Devine Sanative
7:47 AM
22/07/2004

entho=enthusiasm
en=God, thesos =within
think the world of=to like or admire greatly.


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## GushK (Oct 17, 2005)

harpreet kaur said:
			
		

> sat sri akal
> it is fanticisim like this that puts sikhisim two steps back when it takes one step forward, what will they do next, put a ban on the entrance of anyone who is a mona sikh? no doublt i agree if u are a sikh, and are not embarassed to flaunt your sikhi, then do it all the way, but if u have douts, then why trim and live a lie, get over it, do some soul searching and figure it out once and for all if u are strong enough to be one, thats who a sikh is, an epitome of strength, discipline, honor and virtues with some compassion thrown in, no room for doubts in your beliefs, but does that also mean u must reduce yourself to a level lower than that of islamic fundamentalists who believe anyone outside their religion is a {censored}, a disbeliever, we are targeting our own, look at this situation from the eyes of a three year old and the knowledge of a 70 year old, havent we learnt anything from our past mistakes. there are sikh youth out there who are lost and they need a compassionate hand to guide them not push them away, a little love and compassion can go a long way.


 


I think this is the very point that dear Vijaydeep and Dr Khalsa have been trying to make.
I think many poeple here are confusing the idea of the general concept of reaching out to the sikh community and making sure people don't 
feel alienated or abandoned,  with the sacred union of marriage. Both require hugely different levels of commitment and that's the crux of 
this issue.
Once one reads and understands the stanzas of the 4 Laavan you will see that the commitment, both to Waheguru and your partner, is almost at 
the level of being blessed with Amrit and becoming part of the Khalsa Panth.
If someone needs guidance, wants to do seva, etc etc and be a part of the Sikh community, they are more than welcome to come forward and join in at their leisure. If they change thier mind tomorrow, that's ok too. All it requires is active participation on their part and encouragement from Gurdwara and community. 

The issue comes when they decide they want to take it a step further. They wish to be married within the context of the santicty of an Anand 
Karaj but then don't want or don't care to live by that commitment. Guru Sahib has given a HUKAM to Sikhs to refrain from cutting their hair. 
If they cannot abide to such a SIMPLE request, how can they be trusted to live their lives within the framework graced to us by our Guru's? 
Learing to love unconditionally is fine becuase the only requirement is on your own part, but marriage requires commitment from the other  
side too. Being married in an Anand Karaj means commiting youself not just to your partner but to Waheguru too and a promising to follow the 
Sikhi path.
An interesting example is within my own family. A Distant uncle is getting married soon, to a Gujerati woman and i'm very happy for him. 
But he doesn't follow Sikhi at all. His mother is a devout sikh but he has cut his hair, drinks, and had no idea what it means to be Sikh.
I know that for him, the Anand Karaj is just for the sake of having Sikh wedding and by the next day it will be back to normal.
Even my little brother said to me the other day :-

"I feel upset when we go to other weddings and the groom grows his beard for a day or two, then shaves and goes off to a party to get drunk, 
now it looks like it's happening in our own family. Maybe he should just have the register wedding, can you say something to him?"

What do I tell my brother? That its ok for my uncle to be married as a Sikh even though he follows none of the tenants of the religion? or 
he's a good person really, and that's all that matters, so it's ok to have an Anand Karaj. 
Where does that leave the Anand Karaj as an institution designed to encourage and develop your spirituality and sense of commitment?
In that case then, anyone can be married as a Sikh, whether they consider themselves one or not. By the definition given by menbers here, 
there's no commitment other than that to your spouse...the rest you can just CHOOSE to follow if you feel like.

Of course no one is going to ban people from entering a Gurdwara because all that requires of them is to just TURN UP and join in if they 
want to. This should be actively encouraged. But if they want to then turn around and say that "I am a Sikh" and wish to be married as one, 
then they must be prepared to follow those tenants and live as a Sikh too.


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## S|kH (Oct 17, 2005)

GushK has excellently stated what I meant to say in my original posts.

And, I question one thing to the people who say this ban is also "banning people from entering gurdwara, and throwing kids away from the sikh path"...

Why do you not question the Khalsa Panth when they firmly state that only people who are allowed to take Amrit are people who maintain the 5 K's?

Why is it then...that you do not raise slogans and say that they are furthering children away from being committed to the Sikh path, and that they are practically banning people from entering the gurdwara ?

And why did anyone not say this to Guru Gobind when he demanded it?


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## hpluthera (Oct 18, 2005)

Dear Jatinder ji

Thanks for your comments but I have to add that Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a Scholar of Persian and Sanskrit and that time was of Ottaman empire and Moghuls in India and the most respected Language of the time was Persian and most repsected dress code was that of the Kings and Ameers of the time and matching their Mannerism to get same respect was the need of the time. Today the most respected language of the world for better communication knowledge exchange and research is English the dress code is westren. The whole world always lived like that. Look at Period of Ramayan and dresses and language. Guru Gobid Singh ji was a very far sighted Visionery who had option to include in the Guru Granth Sahib His banis and Dassam Granth as part of Living Guru he chose not to because he knew that certain aspects of human life (Cultural and Habits) changes with time and progress. Symbols and fashion changes. That was the time when it was fashion to see with respect a person with ling beard and turban as most respected to day in suit tie that to designer and speaking english can attract you in the contemporary society.

Khalsa symbole of Khanda and two Swords around is also of Persian origin our has a chkra in it. So these were contemporary of the time. 

Spiritual aspect of Sikhi can not be restricted by the measure of principles and symbols of Khlalsa. Khalsa was a Guru Ki Fauj and should have remain and UNO should be asked to create a Khalsa Regiment as it was indeed the UN like mission of Khalsa with similar code. Keep the Khalsa's Glory in its deed so that the glorified role of Khlas in the today's societ encourage and attract the masses not only the Sikhs to join the Order of Khalsa. Guru nanak Connected people to the One who every one acknowledge the ultimate force of life and preached us and the whole world a common message remember thy name in your heart and do good deeds. So it is beyond the divides of all religion that big is the beauty of Guru Nanak's message. Khalsa is the protector of such beings even at the cost of his own life that was the beauty of Khalsa gifted by Guru Gobind Singh. But putting bans and thnking small that after using Gurudwara for marriage they have shaven and not wore turban is too narrow. 
World has two thing permanent Truth and Change and those who refuse to accept repent or fail

let us encourage naam in Gurudwara and Glorify the deeds of Khalsa and their behaviour and participation in good things for human welfare we will win a bigger force of The Order of Khalsa.

Let us build not keep on critising and refuting who wish to take the first small step in the spirit of Gurbani.

Waheguru may grant us all the wisdom to comprehend please take my views in the spirit of debate for getting to the best conclusion these are just my views and not preachings and could be subject to more critical analysis.

regards
HP Luthera




> Dear Hpluthera ji
> 
> 
> I would like to say something about it . I know that you might be senior then me in age and have known sikhi more than me but there are some points in your post that I dont agree so I thought of sharing with you forgive me I say something that seems inaapropiate may be due to my lack of knowledge as we all here to learn
> ...


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## devinesanative (Oct 19, 2005)

Dear HP Luthera Ji

Excellent Reply ! It was a very cystal clear reply . 

Regards
Devine Sanative


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## vijaydeep Singh (Oct 19, 2005)

Gurfateh

das would like to say that love of one form to another or to God is in the Hand of God.

Coming to weather allow Patits to have mariages in Gurudwaras or not that will mean that they can be allowed as this is giving them another chance to rejoin Gurmat.

Khanda is not the persian origeon.

The Flag of Iran or Shia emblem is Allah writtan in either of the side ie lfet to right and right to left.

Khanda or Nishan Sahib is besipic to Sikhs.Then coming to the issue of Five Keys or Farsi.

Farsi was used by Guru to let Gurmat be preached in Iran and Areiba(it is arebic laden farsi which was popular in Arebia at that time and Indians also knew it). Guru also used Braj and Sadhukari to let it reach the lower castes.

Amrit has big link to dig on caste.

Das will give a Big link below into discuus how shaver is Patit.that thread will be used to describe who is Patit.

Das wants to make it clear that Das has problems with few of the members regarding the defination of Patit but at the same time Das preaches tolrance to them.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikhphilosophy/controversial-debates/5775-defination-patit-fallen-sikhhood.html#post14264


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## devinesanative (Oct 20, 2005)

Dear VijayDeep ji

No one perfect , and neither God is even Perfect , otherwise we would have all been look alikes ..........

We should acknowledge that there lies no perfection , if People like you will start discriminating , and not tolerating the imperfections of the other person , then what lesson will you teach to a newly wedded couple .

Will you teach that unless and until your spouse is not perfect you should engage in endless argument and criticize each other leading to divorce...

People learn from what elders do .......

You should promote , to understand each other , to tolerate each other inspite of all imperfections ..........

And , I Stronly object to your word .... PATIT ........

If you are pukka sikh then mere origination of the thought of believing others to be patit makes you a patit .......... Mind should be pure ...... knock out the word patit from your mind ...........


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## devinesanative (Oct 20, 2005)

Dear Web Site VeerJis(ARVIND JI , AMAN Ji and ALL)

We Strongly object to the word PATIT , This is pure demation ..........

The topic of discussion is whether to ban or not ...... and not to decide who is PATIT OR WHO IS NOT .



Moderator's note :  Dear Singh ji  a new topic already has been started for the disscusion for defination of patit so I think the problem has been solved


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## hpluthera (Nov 22, 2005)

Dear Jatinder Ji
"
We do not want mullas in Sikhism and do not approve of any Chaudhries or Thekedars of Sikhi who self proclaim to be superior class of Sikhs than others.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji Said " I am Neither a Hindu Nor A Muslim"

So do not compare Sikhi with what Mullas or Pundits do or preach. let them do what they want do not get into similar trap we are out of that and above the rituals or identities. 
"Truth is great but greater is the Truthful living.' (Gurbani) More than Kakars we have many other Guns which are in my opinion more important than Kakars, I have met and seen many Hypocrats wearing Kakars for political or other reasons they are able to exploit that because kakaars are like olden days Hindus Symbols are becoming more important, I believe for people of such thinking have to revisit Guru Nanak's Teaching. If Kakars give any superiority to any one as a Sikh then I condemn the practice. Just Kakars do not make any better Sikh. I have met may Bhakts who are without kalars but better Sikhs. bhai Nand Lal ji never took Amrit and when he asked and begged Guru Gobind Singh ji , he said you are a Scholar and your Kalam emits amrit you do not need it.

Sikhi is a way of life and Gurbani is its Lathi and Khalsa is an Institution and Kakar are its uniform and If I do not belong to that institution it does not mean I have become a lessor Sikh.

We have many Muslims who are for wrong reasons trying to drive the Sikhi views closer to Islam but let us not forget we are Guru Nanak's Sikh first and Khalsa later but are never a Muslim. Islam may have many good things, and if they have let them teach these to their  perverted lot and Mullas I am no body to influence them. Yes if they have wisdom they can learn a lot from Guru nanak's Message. 

Moreover, there are many Kakar wearing so called Khalsas who are smuglers murderers and do all wrong things with kakar and do not feel shame. I do passionately follow Guru Gobind Singh ji He is my Guru and Great Hero. A very possitive and optimistic thinker a great Soldier a doer Saint and merciful Patshah. But he changed from Fakiri Ves to Ameeri Ves and did acknowledge that with time one should change. So it is now 300 + year after Guru Gobind and time for change. We Sikhs are wasting more time in wasteful discussion on Kakars then Japo Naam. Believ me only Naam will ultimately save us .
HP Luthera


			
				hpluthera said:
			
		

> Dear Jatinder ji
> 
> Thanks for your comments but I have to add that Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a Scholar of Persian and Sanskrit and that time was of Ottaman empire and Moghuls in India and the most respected Language of the time was Persian and most repsected dress code was that of the Kings and Ameers of the time and matching their Mannerism to get same respect was the need of the time. Today the most respected language of the world for better communication knowledge exchange and research is English the dress code is westren. The whole world always lived like that. Look at Period of Ramayan and dresses and language. Guru Gobid Singh ji was a very far sighted Visionery who had option to include in the Guru Granth Sahib His banis and Dassam Granth as part of Living Guru he chose not to because he knew that certain aspects of human life (Cultural and Habits) changes with time and progress. Symbols and fashion changes. That was the time when it was fashion to see with respect a person with ling beard and turban as most respected to day in suit tie that to designer and speaking english can attract you in the contemporary society.
> 
> ...


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## hpluthera (Nov 22, 2005)

Dear Sikh Sangat
Be cautioned that such bans or new kind of impositions are not done by any Sikh but some people with vested interest whose sole motto is to capture control of Gururdwars and then use it for starting their own Congregation or sect by herding the Gurudwar's confused Sangat to their umbrella. 

So be on gaurd with self proclaimed so called superior Sikhs.
HP Luthera



			
				S|kH said:
			
		

> There's a new ban on "short-haired" people getting married in the gurdwara.
> 
> Discuss. (I'll post my views soon).


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 23, 2005)

Gurfateh

Repected Luthra Sahib,

Das is interested to know that from where did you knwo that Nishan Sahib ie Khanda,Two Teghs and Chakra on it is from Farsi origeon.So far it was treated as an influence of Sakatmatis or Brahmins to absorbs Sikhs.

If you think that it is similar to Iran Flag then Das is sorry to say that That Flag has Allah wriitan over it with the cligraphy that can be read from both the sides as a symbol tyhat Allah is at all direction.








Next thing is totaly wrong that Guru told us to change with time.As a Khalsa who worships timelesss Akal so as Akal Khalsa is(as Guru Granth Sahib Ji says that be the person of god as God) the same.

At that time had Guru wanted to adjust to time then Ninth Master would have been converted to Islam and so does Tenth Master and his Sons.Guru tells us to control Time and win death.

Gurmat is not hindusim who adjusts to time or change self with time.We have might to change the time.

Amrit or Nector of Cabre or Khanda had one direct attempt to change time.To end Castes like Virk,Solanki,Sahu,Luthra etc. into Singh or Kaur as they are hindereance to change time.These old castes are to be cahnged and work is still on.Khalsa was made to end racial,regeoanl,Lingual variation and work is still on.

Das agrees that without 5Ks salvation can be done.But to bring social justice and acces to the poorest of poor and lowest of lower to sprituality it is must that theere be social integration.

If some imposted trys to intrude the movement and try to spoil the mission it must that imposter must be thrown out and mission be still on.Khalsa is on mission.

Das respect your views and endreose them and understand them and is at your side but just wanted to tell that there are many practical things which Tenth master diviced and which were not memntioned in Adi Guru Darbar but in any case they were not Anti or Contradictory to it.

What Tenth Master did was not the change but a step ahead in the mission started by First Master.If we go from 5 to 6 then 5 will be in 6 but one extra will be there so it is not change but an increase in postive direction.

It is still in process.


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## devinesanative (Nov 23, 2005)

Conversion and Change are two different words with different meanings .

Suppose you have bought a toy train , you go home and notice that the train is damaged or you want to have a bigger train .

So what you will do is go the toy merchant and ask him to change the toy train or give him a bigger train .

So here change doesn't means that he is going to convert the train to an aeroplane .

or Suppose a person is theive but later on he changes to a good man , it doesn't means that he has converted himself to woman or something else.

Each and every word has different shades of meaning .


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## devinesanative (Nov 23, 2005)

Can any body throw light that what is meant by khalsa ?

Somewhere it is written that it means "Brotherhood".

???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## devinesanative (Nov 23, 2005)

vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> Gurfateh
> 
> Repected Luthra Sahib,
> 
> ...


 

Some of the things which are above written reflects being a SHEKCHILLI type .

_But to bring social justice and acces to the poorest of poor and lowest of lower to sprituality it is must that theere be social integration._

The above is just to fool the public and there is no such happening . 

_We have might to change the time._

This above line is also a SHEKCHILLI writing .

The social integration is going on for centuries but nothing happened .

No has changed time , But every one has to flow with time . 

If it was possible then there wouldn't have been numerous bloodsheds in tha past .

One must be real .


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 23, 2005)

Gurfateh

Das would lie to know the meaning of Sheikh Chilli from Devine Santive(DS) Ji.

Is it shake of chellis:}{}{}: .

anyway when a person changes his faith from say hindu to Muslim he is converted to Islam.

Bringing change in conversion of one position into another.

Khalsa means who sees purly God in all and no Shirk or other thing in existing in universe but God(Dasham Granth Verse Jagat Joot Jape Nis Basur).


Then das request you to try to understand what das says dear DS,

das asks you that do you know that there were many Hindu Temples and even Gurudwaras whetre Dalits were not allowed.

Even untouchables were told to tie brrom on their back so that it cleans the way and let them not touch the Brahamin.

By leting them eat in one bowl and togahter and with one caste Singh was not that revloution then that evil time of inhuman thing would have stil presisted.

Had scintist of reniances had thought like you then they would still be living in dark age.

Human can change by mercy of Akal who is might anything as they have made your computer and we are talking.time did not do it.

Das would like to say that had your forefather been upper caste Hindus then they would have stil been doing service in the court of biogot Mughalsa and your female folk woulfd have been preyed upon by them as it is stil in Pakistan.

And has you been lower caste then you would, have been denied basi human rights as happens in may parts of India.

It is due to Khalsa Panth that there are many liberties and Right Sikh enjoy and can help other non Sikhs to have them asafter that non Sikh too becomes Sikh.

Rember one thing that if some person has weakness that he looses out that does not means that all other are like that.

In Hindi there is a proverb that Svan Ka andha Hara Hi Dekhi ie person who gets bliend in moonsoon always see geernery of it.

It is time tested thing and you can go and see some villages of meerut,Aligarh,bulanshehar in UP or Burhanpur(MP) or Desh Area(HP) or Amrawati Area of Mahrashtra where convewrsion of village to Gurmat has brought change same is true in amy areas of Bihar.

Dalits who were not not allowed to ride horse by upper castes at one time are riding horse and keeping sword with self defeance yet upper castes who nver use to touch them leave aside eat togather come to thier Gurudwaras and take Langer especialy Brahamins.

If you are weak DS or you have seeb weak then this does not mean that every one is weak and world is on grund and not in internet only.Das feesl that you still may not want to have a good company of Dalits so you think that they will still remain dowen troden or you may think that non hindu or Indian races or non Aryans are inferior and can not be treated equaly.

For us to bring equlity is our relgeon and Amrit and 5ks are our proof for that.Das is not offending you personally as das thinks that you have already felt the same but das did not wanted it to happen.

Das has seen many punjabis who are in Sikh attire like donkey in lion and talks that partuicular is lower caste and other is higher race etc.

what das has read from scrioptures and seen Sikhs in practuse that as per True Khalsa seeing god in all there is no caste differance left.

it may be some problem in your punjab where lower caste have differant Gurudwaras and they may not be allowed in upper caste Gurudwaras especially in Malwa area (in doaba or paur lower castes will kill if some think like that).

BUT that does not means that Panth is BAD or totaly failure as you want to say or as das has misunderstood you perhaps.But das is sure that you have again misunderstood him.


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## devinesanative (Nov 23, 2005)

The question is not whether panth is bad or good .

The question is not whether Dalits are allowed or not .

But the question is , Do people walk the talk ?


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## hpluthera (Nov 23, 2005)

I entirely agree to your view these self proclaimed gurudwara Grabbers should be kept under constant check or thrown out.  The Problem is that Gurudwaras are run by volunteers and there are many clever so Called professional volunteers who become self proclaimed pseudo gurus.

Belief is with in you and that is more important.
Be strong and have faith in you
HP


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## hpluthera (Nov 24, 2005)

vijaydeep Singh said:
			
		

> Gurfateh
> 
> Repected Luthra Sahib,
> 
> ...


 

Dear Vijaya Deep ji

At the outset I must say that only Change is Permanent or Truth is.  Every thing else changes even the Atma change body today an Atma in a Sikh tomorrow the same may be Hindu or may be in some one else.

Guru Gobind Rai became Guru Gobind Singh,  Sri Guru Nanak House adopted path of Sword from fakeeri. Why? to bring a chnge.  Stagnant society or economy just rot.  Those who change always get on the front.  

Spiritual Political and Social or cultural aspects of life have been changing historically.  Sri Guru Nanak Changed the belief of his time and started Sikhi Panth.

Let us be practical like our Gurus and be modren and open minded to accept the change. 

 Today if you need to fight the evil can you fight in the uniform of 14th 16th cetury or you would need the modern warfare and techniques.   Do you think the Sikhs in Army should say we are Khalsa give me Kirpan or Khanda to fight.  They do not why? because Guru also said get abreast with latest techniques and change over.  He knew when he made Lions from the "Sheeps" . 

Many were then Dalits and with new identity power of Amrit uniform of Khalsa their psyche  motivation and attitude changed.  We need Chadhdi kala all along in our life many motivational speakers are making millions of Dollars but our Guru Did for free ( I am not comparing but an analogy)

Accept the fact Guru Gobind Singh ji established Khalsa to bring change So the very function and need of the Sikh and then Khalsa was to bring Change.  

I am sure we must be progressive with time and change our ways not the values.  I am sure you must be travelling in car jet plane etc. if you adopted that change why small change is so difficult.  

Even Guru Nanak Dev Ji changed his dress on different udasis.

Expand Sikhi not the Rituals.  Adopt ways for preaching as adopted by Guru nanak Devji who reminded the message behind symbols and rituals like janau without agonising and connected people with him.  He defeated them in all arguments and made them accept the real Truth as against Hypocracy.  We must today shun that kind of Khalsa Hypocracy.
Many khalsa of today are just Nautankis.  ( we see them in here every day) In the garb of Khalsa.


On one hand you are saying that Khalsa ws made to change caste System on other hand you say Khalsa is Atal. 

 Atal is faith which we all have with in Khalsa is just a roop confirming that faith with Gurus Mohar (Stamp) like designers.  Khalsa is a Designer Sikh very special so keep it special by not "Nautankis"  be part of it.

 It is important to understand that Living with principles of a Khalsa is more important than just living in the Swaroop of Khalsa  without virtues of Khalsa. 

 I would rather chase such Khalsa' as would fail to live like one and dismiss them from the Khalsa hood with a dishonourable discharge.  I know it is easy to take Amrit and wear Khalsa uniform but it is highly responsible and difficult to live upto it.  

I happen to know closely three Khalsa One of them was my Grand Father Shahid baba Pratap Singh of Punja sahib and second Late S Hukum Singhji as I knew him,(he was a speaker of Lok sabha in India) and third my Grand mother with whom I lived my all childhood and younger days   was a Khalsa.

Khalsa is to Live and fight the vices with in and evil outside and by his action promote Sikhi   not by preaching.  To become Khalsa one need to read Sikh History and to become a Sikh one need to have a touch of Gurbani. But today Khalsa just want others to be Khalsa without being a mentor himself.

  To fit in the world and to face and fight the world as our Gurus  we must not dictate others in a way to exclude them but like Sri Guru nanak Dev ji include every one as  Gurbani says "Hum Nahin Change Bura Nahi Koye".  Stop becoming supeior sikhs just because you are Amritdhari. 

 Symbols are Gifts of Guru and unless we let every one come to "Gurus Sharan"  how can they get those gifts and appreciate them. 

I may here add that the Guru does not give these Gifts  to all unless we beg for and we do not become even worthy of begging unless he gives us inner sttrength to ask for that bowl of Amrit.

Regarding the Persian Islamic influence in Khalsa Emblem read following:

*http://www.islamreview.com/articles/cairsjesus.shtml*
*I’ll start this by a question. What is the symbol of Islam? For who doesn’t know , it’s the crescent (don’t ask me why now, that’s another story.) Another symbol of Islam is the black banner with two crossed swords and the inscription of “La Ellah Ella Allah Wa Muhammad Rasoul Allah” which translate to “No God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger.” As for the two swords, you don’t need a translation *


As regards your views that Sikhi is not like Hinduism,  I smell your hatred for people of other religion.  Hinduism has not changed people has changed.  Religious beliefs remain same people change.  If I ask you to say Hari Hari every day you will say why I am Sikh I say Waheguru Waheguru"  But Gurbani says " Naam Hari ka Laga Mitha".  we go astray from gurbani every day and running after symbols.

Sikhi is about Freedom of worship just as our Gurus preached and the Sikhism Symbolise _FREEDOM OF WORSHIP.  Therefore, I am prepared oppose ANY BHAI, LEADER, KHALSA OR AMRITDHARI WHO Tries to CHANGE THE VERY FOUNDATION OF SRI GURU NANAK DEV JI'S SIKHI-FREEDOM OF WORSHIP 

"HASSANDIYA KHADHANDIYA WICHE HOVEY MUKT"
" BETHAT NAAM SOVAT NAAM"  

Why cannot we accept that Guru Gobind Singh Ji had an option to include the Dress Code of Khalsa etc. in the Guru Granth Sahib but he did not.  Why? because he knew that with time Cultures, Politics, Society and fashion changes. It was never his intention to hold his Khalsa in the time capsule. 

 Only Glorification of God and the permanent Truths of life are in the Guru Granth Sahib.  He ( GOD) never changes and our love for Him should never change.  "Dharti" earth also Changes. we are just humans.


I hope I have addressed all your concerns and HAVE made it quite clear what I am tryinng to say.  

I am neither against Khalsa nor Keshadhari - because I am one. 

I am for freedom of worship.

To save the institution of Khalsa it should be checked that people wearing Khalsa Uniform Behaves and follow its Code and Ethics.  ecourage Khalsa to be part of United nation.  Every Sikh Family should feel it a matter of pride if their loved one is a Khalsa and inservice of Humanity world wide.  Be real Akal Purukh Ki Fauj not by Just Singing your glories every day with in the precincts of Gurudwara.

May Sri Guru Nanak grant us sumat 



REGARDS
HP LUTHERA


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 26, 2005)

Gurfateh

Luthra Sahib,

There seesm to be a sort of misunderstanding what Das wants to convey and what you ahve understood and so das is writing it to clearfy.




> Dear Vijaya Deep ji
> 
> At the outset I must say that only Change is Permanent or Truth is. Every thing else changes even the Atma change body today an Atma in a Sikh tomorrow the same may be Hindu or may be in some one else.


 
Cahnge is apparant while all is Akal which makes us all and is eternal.

Soul is also relative and hindus misquote holy Gita when they say soul is eternal while as soul is created as spirit and thence destroyed.


> Guru Gobind Rai became Guru Gobind Singh, Sri Guru Nanak House adopted path of Sword from fakeeri. Why? to bring a chnge. Stagnant society or economy just rot. Those who change always get on the front.


 
Das wants you to rember that Sixth Master did pick up sword and Ninth Master became Tegh Bahdur ie brave with blade or sword.

And we have an arte fact of sword of Guru Nanak Dev JI kept at Patna Sahib obtained from Orrisa and as per Sashtra vidya people Guru Nanak Dev Ji himslef was master of weaponary.

Tenth Master did was to bring the change in wider masses and people work started by Akal and being one with Akal.

Das again say that Human cahnge socity and and weak people surrunder to changing times or get subdued.First master did not got subdued to Babber and one day dislodge his rule in the form 0f Twleth ie Khalsa.


> Spiritual Political and Social or cultural aspects of life have been changing historically. Sri Guru Nanak Changed the belief of his time and started Sikhi Panth.


 
This is due to the fault of our people who critinised our faith due to influnes of then protetant rulers.

They did cahnged thier faith to suit the needs of the rulers and thos4e who did not were forced to die(Nihung Hanuman Singh etc.) or to flea in south or conspire covertly but kept there strugle on to change the time.

Guru Maharaj Pratham Patshahi,the First Emperor did not start a new faith as Panth is there since the universe was formed.If we read Sau Sakhi it were Budhists Nandas who forsed idolatory to Primary or Adi Sikhs and cut thier hairs.One creed of Brahmins(here refer to Akal worshippers as it is Said in Guru Granth Sahib Ji),Left India and became forefather of jews.

Guru did preach faith to human kind and those who wanted to be like Guru became Sikh(refer Vaars of bhai Gurdas ie Guru became Sikh and Sikh became Guru).

The evil which was there was due to evil time and again by humans(Guru with GuruSikhs(Sikhs attaining Guruhood spritualy)) does it was act of Akal(the universal System prevalent in and out with a brain) to prove some thing and that is that Akal by self is supreeme.

to be more prisece Akal created Bad and and big Bad and then by weak humans amde that to change into good.



> Let us be practical like our Gurus and be modren and open minded to accept the change


. 

Das has got the root of misunderstadning.

well to change time we need to carry out new acts to let time changes to suit our needs and this is aggressive way.

to change ourself with time is defeansive way and das respect that thing to but does not endrose it.



> Today if you need to fight the evil can you fight in the uniform of 14th 16th cetury or you would need the modern warfare and techniques. Do you think the Sikhs in Army should say we are Khalsa give me Kirpan or Khanda to fight. They do not why? because Guru also said get abreast with latest techniques and change over. He knew when he made Lions from the "Sheeps" .


 
Das is reapeating that useage of Kirpan is still not obsolate and and fianl assult we still use Sangeens our boynats and this reduced the collatral damge especaily if enemy is hidden in civilians.
And when chemical for explosives will be over we can still recyle iron.

but das has got you point but das wants you to read Dasham Granth where not only Cannons and Explosive matter is termed as Mainfestation of God in Shaster Naam Mala Puran but at other places siganls for nuclear energy is writtan.

In fact as Guru worshipped Akal he could trevel in time,which scince is yet to reach.Time itself is realtive facotor what das wants to convey and can be altered and when time machine will be made by sceince(after making any thing moving faster then light or even eqaul to it making time gaoing negative then you could meet Guru Gobind Singh ji and talk on that but this is serious thing Sir!).




> Many were then Dalits and with new identity power of Amrit uniform of Khalsa their psyche motivation and attitude changed. We need Chadhdi kala all along in our life many motivational speakers are making millions of Dollars but our Guru Did for free ( I am not comparing but an analogy)


 
das agree to it but wants to add that Amrit was there since first Master but scale was to be enlarged to change more people in that time frame.

Before that it was Charan Pahul,Corner of Guru Granth Sahib's covering cloath dipped in Water.


> Accept the fact Guru Gobind Singh ji established Khalsa to bring change So the very function and need of the Sikh and then Khalsa was to bring Change


. 

This is correct and das supports it And Guru did bring change and porcess is on by the same Guru Khalsa.


I





> I am sure we must be progressive with time and change our ways not the values. I am sure you must be travelling in car jet plane etc. if you adopted that change why small change is so difficult.


 
Resource could be utiliesed to bring change to suit the requirement of humans.Guru did use the canonon brought in by Moghuls to defeat them.To get the gola to change as per needs varouis means can be used.

BUT MEANS ARE NOT THE GOALS.






> Even Guru Nanak Dev Ji changed his dress on different udasis.


 
That was done to let the meantilty of people change but Guru did not changed his faith and articles of faith.He did not take Kuran but his Pothi of Gurbani to Holy Mecca.Dress was mean to change the minds and as result we still have sipleeds with full hairs in Central Iraq.



> Expand Sikhi not the Rituals.


some rituals are must to let what is in mind comes on ground also.



> Adopt ways for preaching as adopted by Guru nanak Devji who reminded the message behind symbols and rituals like janau without agonising and connected people with him.


 
Well das knows that Guru told Bhai Mardana never to cut hairs and why did he made own of his rituals.

Yagypweet as per old Sanatan Dharmi scripture was something to dod with good ideas and open to man kind and not only to selected castes.Guru only endroresed the reasons behind that symbolism.

Das finds Janeu still with him in the from of Ghatra.



> He defeated them in all arguments and made them accept the real Truth as against Hypocracy. We must today shun that kind of Khalsa Hypocracy.
> Many khalsa of today are just Nautankis. ( we see them in here every day) In the garb of Khalsa.


 
Das appriciate your concerns.

Das just wants to be in Chardi Kala and have faith in akal who uis in all.and have trust in many others you think are doing good.If you find no one then you your self try to be good but as per true spirit of Khalsa never say die.

Das has seen may cases Sikhs fighting against many odds.Many people die and many comrades dies but strugle goes on till last drop of blood.

So if imposters are dieing spritual death then this does not gives us an excuse to commit spritual suicide.

to imporve Panth do not rely on what others do ,think what you can do 





> On one hand you are saying that Khalsa ws made to change caste System on other hand you say Khalsa is Atal.


 
to be more clear,Akal is in all and is in Khalsa before it was made with Singh title as by circumstances so far distinctions of inequlities were there.


Khalsa is Atal as being one with Akal person who is Khalsa becomes eternal.But it is capable of changing time.


> Atal is faith which we all have with in Khalsa is just a roop confirming that faith with Gurus Mohar (Stamp) like designers. Khalsa is a Designer Sikh very special so keep it special by not "Nautankis" be part of it.


 
Das agrees to you and know Nautanki people who first give priroty on Amrit and Five Ks and not beholding Akal in all and removail of indivdualistic ego and so we find our lust for indivdual from or dress gors and we find ourself one with the universe and there all changes are apprant and true Akal ie Akkul or unmoving.Punajbis use AkkUli(u is for Chhota a like in but) for brain but in Sadhu Bhasha this is state of salvation while being alive as Akal is in all so no movement as there is no two things in real either nor does space is a realty but a realtive term.


> It is important to understand that Living with principles of a Khalsa is more important than just living in the Swaroop of Khalsa without virtues of Khalsa.


101% Agreed.


> I would rather chase such Khalsa' as would fail to live like one and dismiss them from the Khalsa hood with a dishonourable discharge. I know it is easy to take Amrit and wear Khalsa uniform but it is highly responsible and difficult to live upto it.


 
das is from that side of Nirmalas where Amrit or 5ks are not an issue and only few have it but still they respect does who dawn it but you are correct that we must have faith first than appearnace but appreanace is proof of faith which we first had in our mind and did bring it on ground.

whithout faith it is wrong to wear 5Ks. 



> I happen to know closely three Khalsa One of them was my Grand Father Shahid baba Pratap Singh of Punja sahib and second Late S Hukum Singhji as I knew him,(he was a speaker of Lok sabha in India) and third my Grand mother with whom I lived my all childhood and younger days was a Khalsa.


\
Das bows his head to them and to you aas Das knows that you are one of them and is happy to interact with you.



> Khalsa is to Live and fight the vices with in and evil outside and by his action promote Sikhi not by preaching. To become Khalsa one need to read Sikh History and to become a Sikh one need to have a touch of Gurbani. But today Khalsa just want others to be Khalsa without being a mentor himself.


 
We must not forget Dasham Granth and Sarbloh Granth also.

As per Sant Singh Ji Maskeen,We have Duniydar(Grahst or householder or turbanned Hindu least bothered with any thing). Sikh(Jigyasu or one who seeks knwoledge).Singh(Sadhu who works on teaching) and Khalsa(Sant,who gets the state of salvation being Alive or one with Akal).

Many 'Amritdharis' are still dunyadars. 


> To fit in the world and to face and fight the world as our Gurus we must not dictate others in a way to exclude them but like Sri Guru nanak Dev ji include every one as Gurbani says "Hum Nahin Change Bura Nahi Koye". Stop becoming supeior sikhs just because you are Amritdhari.


 
Das agains has full support to you.


> Symbols are Gifts of Guru and unless we let every one come to "Gurus Sharan" how can they get those gifts and appreciate them.


 
Guru takes us in Guru's(Akal's) refuge and our attempts are futile.


> I may here add that the Guru does not give these Gifts to all unless we beg for and we do not become even worthy of begging unless he gives us inner sttrength to ask for that bowl of Amrit.



What das knows here is that all is by mercy of Akal and Akal does not want all to be one with Akal else why did Akal created universe and Dwait or Duja Bhav there in ie duality of anything else but Akal.


> Regarding the Persian Islamic influence in Khalsa Emblem read following:
> 
> *http://www.islamreview.com/articles/cairsjesus.shtml*
> *I’ll start this by a question. What is the symbol of Islam? For who doesn’t know , it’s the crescent (don’t ask me why now, that’s another story.) Another symbol of Islam is the black banner with two crossed swords and the inscription of “La Ellah Ella Allah Wa Muhammad Rasoul Allah” which translate to “No God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger.” As for the two swords, you don’t need a translation *


 
Well Allah ho Akabar is 'the God is greatest ' is in Arebic and in farsi it should be Khoda Buzoorg Tareen ast.

Two swords are symbol og British Army,Indian Army,Sakatas use Khanda Shaiv use Trishul and many tribals have similar thiings.Das wanted to prove that Guru did not copy but got from the source ie Akal from where others get.


> As regards your views that Sikhi is not like Hinduism, I smell your hatred for people of other religion. Hinduism has not changed people has changed. Religious beliefs remain same people change. If I ask you to say Hari Hari every day you will say why I am Sikh I say Waheguru Waheguru" But Gurbani says " Naam Hari ka Laga Mitha". we go astray from gurbani every day and running after symbols.


 
Luthra Sahib,Das was a Hindu and why did das wrote is due to some other fact.

hindu was a derogatory remark by pagan parsis(not Shia Muslims).The people who should have called themsleves Arayan(Civilised) or Sanatanis(worshippers of eternal) just started to accept derpgaotry referance as rulers later refered them.That was accepting the defeat and changing with time.One who ruled earth got restriced to hindustan bounded by hindukush(mountains where all hindus were killed(kush)).

there are mnay 'sikhs' who cut there hairs being afraid of jokes of 12 oclock and that is thing to accept the change then to change the things to accepatbilty.


> Sikhi is about Freedom of worship just as our Gurus preached and the Sikhism Symbolise _FREEDOM OF WORSHIP. Therefore, I am prepared oppose ANY BHAI, LEADER, KHALSA OR AMRITDHARI WHO Tries to CHANGE THE VERY FOUNDATION OF SRI GURU NANAK DEV JI'S SIKHI-FREEDOM OF WORSHIP


 
Das knows that Panth talks of salvation by willof Akal and so does worship and how can someone make us to worship as gurbani says 'knows without prayer,in front of whon ashould we pray'.Panth has no room for worship but doing all acts as slvae of Akal.As Akal is doing and we are limbs or tools with no brain but alll things are of Akal.



> "HASSANDIYA KHADHANDIYA WICHE HOVEY MUKT"
> " BETHAT NAAM SOVAT NAAM"


 
salutations.


> Why cannot we accept that Guru Gobind Singh Ji had an option to include the Dress Code of Khalsa etc. in the Guru Granth Sahib but he did not. Why?


 
he did it in Sarbloh Granth and in Dasham Granth lator on his things were added.Main reason for his not including his bani in Guru Granth Sahib and making other writing was due to two reasons.
1. Adi Guru Darbar was to be made too voluminous.
2. other sects like Dheermias,Meenas,Ramrays,Masands etc. wanted to misqoute term Nanak in Adi Guru Darbar as one with God.Like in mool Mantra Say(noot Says as Akal is telling Nanak to say) Nanak will(Akal) be true was could be treated as Nanak will be true.

but Tenth Master was to reaffirm Akal is only source and there were a few Ihlaams(Godly verse which did not addressed Nanak) But in Book and writing of Guru never did he sued his or Nanak name but referd to Akal as saying.




> because he knew that with time Cultures, Politics, Society and fashion changes. It was never his intention to hold his Khalsa in the time capsule.


 
Thing can be said that folllwoing Sabad Guru as per Guru Granth Sahihb can be mere time depeanded or traping Sikhs in time capsule inspite of Mool Mantra Saying Akal is timeless entiy(Akal Murat).

It is only due to Adi Guru Darbar purism that such things come.


> Only Glorification of God and the permanent Truths of life are in the Guru Granth Sahib.


 
This itslef is capsualtion of God in one book or tieing Akal with a book.like promises are from Allah misquoted in holy Kuran or Testmeants by God in holy bible.

Adi Guru Darbar was made by Akal and anything which is created can be destroyed be it book what matters is an ideaology as you told before.

Bounding ourself to a book is similar to ritualism of 5ks or amrit without underastaning idealogy.Das just want you read Bani of Tenth Master.

in his Maryada for five Ks he used term Bashad in Farsi and not Bood or ast ie Bashad is in Present and Futre while Ast is present and Bood is in past.

It sates marks of Sikhi are Five keys and in there not going to be forgivne.There names are given.without Hairs other four (Bangle,Sword,Shorts and Comb) are uselss.I(Guru) say this with no conflict with privous code(this means code was there before writng this).

Huaqqa,shaving and Halal are forbiddan and appying Hinna is like balckednin the face.

As per Sau Sakhi Damdami beer was laready made before Gurus leaving Anandpur Sahib this means that Guru did intend to write other books as our guide and Guru Granth Sahib Ji of oldest version was to brought from Dheermaliyas just to not let them misquote them.






> He ( GOD) never changes and our love for Him should never change. "Dharti" earth also Changes. we are just humans.


 
if we are Khalsa and one with Akal we like Akal can change anything.As then we is not us but Akal but mercy of that Akal is needed.



> I hope I have addressed all your concerns and HAVE made it quite clear what I am tryinng to say.
> 
> I am neither against Khalsa nor Keshadhari - because I am one.
> 
> ...


 
Sir! Das is soory if worng is writtan but das is misunderstood as Devine Seantive has thought of him.

As das told you before Das is at your side but we nned not have to see iles opf others but try to be in high spirit by seeing goods of other and if others is not good to be found then we can improve ourselves but by mercy of Akal as we and you are realtive terms.

Das thanks you for reply and seeks your guidance in future but motive of das is to let Panth be in high spirit and by the acts of hypocrtic imposters true people like you must not be defensive but be in higher spirit.

Das is again soory if inappropriate words are said and das hopes that you him forgive him.


REGARDS
HP LUTHERA


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 26, 2005)

Gurfateh

Das is again writing two points to let them be more clear.
1. If we say that Tenth Master made Guru Granth Sahib as Guru,Then it is not writtan in Guru Granth Sahib JI but from other sources.

We can not be seltictive to think That if Guru Granth Sahib Ji are suiting us then it is eternal and Khalsa is not suiting then not eternal.

Das would like to say that First to Fourth Master did not compiled Guru Granth Sahib JI,Fifth did.

Das can ask why did not Ninth Master put 'his' verse himself in Guru Gran th sahib Ji and why did Tenth Master put it.

As Ninth Master had faith that Tenth Master will not question and put that Gurbani so did Tenth master did not put his Bani in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Guru knew that his successor Guru Panth will respect his Bani.And will follow it.Usualy more hypocracy is from looby of Guru Granth Sahib purests who in fact do not follow whole of Guru Granth Sahib Ji either ie Raagmala or even Bhatt swayye or Bhagat Bani.

2. Das becomes emotional on change issue as Fifth Guru,Ninth Guru and many other Saheeds or martyers never conceded to change but by giving life changed the time.

Das can say if some one offers him say bribe to ditch the nation or even say that Indians are killing Khalistanis and das must change or else he will die or say ditch the duty.

Being a Sikh das will not change to suit time but will strive to change it in favour or die but no compromise.

due to that only others respect us be it India or UK,Be it Saragarhi or be it Kargill and instead of being role models of others we teach ourself to change is wrong.

Das can say that col grewal or Rabinder singh who were mona/patits who ditch the nation or maniderpal singh kohli was a rapist of Henna Foster in UK and there are many such mona/patits so should Sikhs start hating all or say killing all due to bad acts of fews.

In the same way if a few so called Amritdharis are wrong then we must not hate all of them as such.Das agrees that a few people who are self acclaimed Amritdharis or with 5Ks are do not know much about Sikhi but there is no fault of Sikhi but of us that we could not preach them and need to preach them faith first and its mnaifestation in body.

2.


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## gurpreetsingh (Nov 28, 2005)

Very Good Reply from AMERI KAUR,

We are proud to have such ladies in our SIKH PANTH. 
We should encourage our children to participate in SADH SANGAT, GURDWARA, OUR RELIGION, ETC.

Waheguru bhali karega.


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## devinesanative (Nov 28, 2005)

Change is that word which is mostly misunderstood.

It is due to change that there are hundreds of religions in this world .

It is due to change that we are in the Technology Era.

It is due to change that everything is happening.

Other wise we all of us would still have been living in the jungles live like nomads.

Change does not means Exchange , Convert , Compromise or Complacence .

For example if the Owners of this site change the Look and feel of the site then it doesn't means that from Sikh philosophy Network it has become Islam Philosophy Network.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 28, 2005)

Gurfateh

When a person is one with eternal Akal who does not change so timeless then all apparent things look just unchaging as they are manifestation of truth only.

Then as eternal can by self can change eternals own form like we say move and make shapes on our fingers.

So with one who ios one with etranl and find nothing else but purly eteranl that is pure or Khalsa.Being one with eternal it becomes tool or form or manifeation of eternal which is agent of change.

Das wants to remind that 5 Beloved one were of gret sprituality so or fit to be Singh and Khalsa.

First they had to leave the love to life and were to follow Guru without there own brain but blindly and were ready to die then only due to thier strong faith they were given inmortality via amrit and Singh Khalsa was made as lator from same Guru took Amrit.

So without such heart and questoning the saying of Guru if we keep 5ks or Be Amritdhari then it is usless.First we need to have such spriutasl hight due to faith then only baptism or 5ks mean anything.

lastly it is not writtan in Guru Granth Sahib that Tenth Master included Bani of Ninth Master into Guru Granth Sahib but is dereived from other source.

If we can derive that from other sources then what is wrong to obey what Tenth Master told us to do(which is not directly mentioned) not in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.We can not be selctive or had Five beloved one being like that then Singh may not have been founded.And they wuold have run away like many others like Masands who complained about Guru to his Mother Mata Gujari.


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## devinesanative (Nov 28, 2005)

The Motivating Force behind all the Religions is the BRAIN of the Human beings.

If humans beings would have followed blindly , then this world would not have witnessed so many religions , and so many bloodsheds due to the religions.

If you say about Brain , then Animals don't have the brain , though they have the brain but not that which human beings have. 

So , there is  no Religion Among Animals , and they follow blindly the Nature or the AKal.


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## devinesanative (Nov 28, 2005)

Religious Addiction and Fanaticism is also one form of Kam which creates Moh towards that Kam , And interruption between the Religious Addiction causes  Anger and Ultimately Ahankar of being Superior to others.

Youth are already drifting away from Religion due to such Voluminious and Heavily Loaded Lectures , and the Dictates of if you do this you are superior and if you don't do this you are inferior.


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## vijaydeep Singh (Nov 29, 2005)

Gurfateh

Dear DS,

Das would like to have your coments on thiese two.

1. what makes brain to work.
2. What composes the brain ie Brain is made up of what.

Das is realy impressed on your anlytical skills


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## devinesanative (Nov 29, 2005)

Let us drag DRKHALSA into this discussion , he knows better that how brain works , and what makes brain.


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## lionprinceuk (Dec 10, 2005)

Interseting topic, what about people who grow their hair and beard just to look like a Sikh in front of Guru Sahib on their wedding, and cut it at the party?


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## xishveirx (Dec 30, 2005)

WJKK WJKF

prajis/phenjis

I would like to express my view through several Questions:

1. Are we going to make a difference in the community by implementing this ban?

2. Who is going to enforce this ban?

3. For how long would this ban come to existence (feasability)?

All the answers are quite clear - for me at least. But I would like others to see that it is not a wise choice to support this ban.

I grew up with Sikh friends in a very non Sikh environment.
And I can tell you for sure that All of us had respect for Sikhi to a certain point. I have to agree that when it came to girls, they were grateful to not have turbans.

Generally, not many have the courage and confidence to live a life following Guru Gobind Singh Jis command.

To grow hair or not is an option influenced my many variables - family, personal choice, environment etc
Please do no argue with this logic as this is true. I do not have more supporting arguements for it but I feel strongly for what I have just typed.

In the end, let us not make enemies out of the already divided Sikh community.

Rab Rakha


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## 24/7 Kaur (Jan 6, 2006)

I myself am a Mona being born and bred in the UK. 5 years ago I married my wife in a Gurdwara in Chandigarh sporting a Turban. It was the first day in my life I actually understood what a privilege it is to wear a turban.

During the wedding ceremony and the after party in the UK I still kept kesh and wore a Turban again during the wedding parties. My pictures around the house today show me with a beard and Turban. My daughter of 2 years still recognises me in the pictures, although I'm wearing a Turban. I feel because of these pictures she doesn’t think her nana ji  is an alien because he wears a Turban.

Now I am facing dilemma. My son is 4 months old. How do I preach when I do not practice? I will not be cutting his hair and making that decision for him. My parents decided for me and I never had long hair from birth.

Our parents choose our religion. They educate and preach more than anyone else on the planet. I’ll do what I can for my children and educate what I know and understand about Sikhi. Will I have to explain to my son that he cannot marry in a Gurdwara if he cuts his hair? Will he understand? Will he care? 

I know now, that one day soon I will be growing my hair and learning to tie a Turban all because I married in Gurdwara with 5 k’s.


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## drkhalsa (Jan 6, 2006)

> I myself am a Mona being born and bred in the UK. 5 years ago I married my wife in a Gurdwara in Chandigarh sporting a Turban. It was the first day in my life I actually understood what a privilege it is to wear a turban.
> 
> During the wedding ceremony and the after party in the UK I still kept kesh and wore a Turban again during the wedding parties. My pictures around the house today show me with a beard and Turban. My daughter of 2 years still recognises me in the pictures, although I'm wearing a Turban. I feel because of these pictures she doesn’t think her nana ji is an alien because he wears a Turban.
> 
> ...




Dear Singh ji

YOu have given really excellent aspect of sehajdhari marrying in gurdwara and and this is what i also think could be a purpose of such marrigoes in gurdawar to give people chance to taste sikhi and really happy for you 

And you are right about your child it is his wish what ever he/she decide  to be 
but definately it would be difficult for you preach the physical aspect of sikhi but still if you are interested in sikhi then you can learn yourself and also teach you r child as there are many other things as well to learn in sikhi beside the physical aspect of it

Best of luck

Jatinder Singh


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## vijaydeep Singh (Jan 7, 2006)

Gurfateh
When a person who wears Turban and 5ks from being one who had hair cut.
People more and more respect him/her.

This is more from non Sikhs as Sikhs of the more test him/her to see that if he /she has engugh worth to keep that form with deeds also.

If Akal wants you can have it as das had it.


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## Singh13 (Apr 2, 2006)

I am not actually agree with this ban.its like we are saying to hair cut sikh that we don't want you F> U>. Thats not how we do it. They are also Sikh but for some reason they have their hair cut but we cannot descriminate them like that. Now who says someone is not a sikh if he has his hair cut. he might've been perform like sikh. Sikhi is not about your apperance that you see outside, it should be the same in inside as well. who is sure of those sikh who wear turban and have beard and stuff, that they are true sikh. They might be the bad one who do their things but no one looks at them like that because They have this appearance of a fine SIKH.


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## Singh13 (Apr 2, 2006)

[SIZE=+2]
Urgent Action Requested: Save Satnam Singh’s Hair From Forcibly Being Cut 
*

*[/SIZE]​








(New York, New York) April 1, 2006 - The Sikh Coalition is requesting urgent action to ensure a Sikh prisoner does not have his hair forcibly cut.




“*I have never cut my hair in my life. For me, as a Sikh, the possibility of having my hair cut is like facing the death penalty"*​*WHAT YOU CAN DO *
Please Take 1 Minute to Sign Our Online Petition and Ask Other People to Do So – Every time 100 people sign it, the Governor receives a notification that another 100 people have signed the petition; 
Please E-mail Your Own Personal Message to the Governor and Department of Corrections – Personal messages make a difference!​
<LI class=bodytext1>Email Jeb Bush, Florida Governor 
Email James McDonough, the Secretary of the Department of Corrections
Please copy satnamsingh@sikhcoalition.org on the e-mail so that we have a record of how many personal messages Florida officials receive. 
Timeline of Events

<LI class=bodytext1>*Friday, March 24 *- The Sikh Coalition receives a 35 page packet of information from Satnam Singh explaining that he will be transferred to a Florida state prison and that he is fearful his hair will be forcibly cut. The Coalition’s Legal Director reviews the packet and determines that Satnam Singh legitimately is in danger of having his hair forcibly cut. <LI class=bodytext1>*Monday, March 27* - The Coalition writes to the Secretary of the Department of Corrections and his General Counsel arguing that cutting Satnam Singh’s hair would violate the law. <LI class=bodytext1>*Monday, March 27* - The Coalition engages local Florida attorney and Treasurer of the Sikh Society of Florida, Arvind Singh, to rally local community support behind Satnam Singh and attempt to find him pro bono legal assistance. <LI class=bodytext1>*Tuesday, March 28* - Arvind Singh contacts local civil rights organizations, such as the ACLU, Aleph Institute, Council on American Islamic Relations, and Florida Sikh activists to support Satnam Singh <LI class=bodytext1>*Tuesday, March 28 *- Coalition faxes a formal letter to Governor Jeb Bush, requesting he intervene in this matter <LI class=bodytext1>*Wednesday, March 29* - The Coalition’s Legal Director speaks to attorneys from the Aleph Institute and the ACLU of Florida to request their assistance. <LI class=bodytext1>*Wednesday, March 29* - The Coalition puts together an online petition that will e-mail the Governor and the Department of Corrections every 100 times it is signed. Coalition requests Sikh organizations all over the world to join effort <LI class=bodytext1>*Thursday, March 30* - Over 100 Sikh and non-Sikh organizations around the world respond to Coalition’s request to sign petition to Governor Bush of Florida. 
*Thursday, March 30* - The Aleph Institute agrees to formally provide assistance on this matter. </SPAN>
The prisoner, Satnam Singh, is presently incarcerated at a federal prison in Ohio. He will be transferred to a Florida state prison on or after April 9, 2006. Florida prison regulations require male prisoners to cut their hair to a “medium length” and allow prison officials to forcibly cut their hair if they refuse to comply. Urgent action is therefore needed to stop Florida prison officials from forcibly cutting his hair.
*Background*
Satnam Singh was convicted in federal court and Florida state court of criminal use of personal identification information, a non-violent offense. He was sentenced to five years imprisonment in Florida and a three year federal sentence. As a result of good behavior, his federal sentence has been reduced by 216 days. 
At present, Satnam is housed in a low security federal prison in Youngstown, Ohio. Throughout his stay in federal prison, he has been allowed to maintain his unshorn hair neatly in his turban. He does not have a negative disciplinary record. His Federal Bureau of Prisons Progress Report states that he “approaches staff in a polite and respectful manner” and “has maintained clear conduct since his incarceration.” 
Satnam is scheduled to be released to a Florida state prison on or after April 9, 2006 where he will have to be submitted to having his hair cut forcibly if he refuses to voluntarily submit to having his hair cut and beard shaved completely off. 
*Florida’s Prison Regulations and Federal Court Decision Allow Prisons to Forcibly Cut an Inmate’s Hair *
Florida state prison regulations, unlike the regulations of other states, requires prisoners to cut their hair and allows prison officials to forcibly cut their hair if they refuse to do so. Chapter 33-602.101(4) of the Florida Administrative Code states that “[m]ale inmates shall have their hair cut short to medium uniform length at all times….” The section also states that “[a]ll inmates shall be clean shaven, provided, however that an exemption from this requirement shall be granted on the basis of a medial diagnosis….” *If an inmate refuses to adhere to these grooming standards, even for faith-based reasons, the officer in charge “shall direct staff to shave the inmate or cut the inmate’s hair” *according the Chapter 602.101(5). 
In addition, in Brunskill v. Boyd, a case decided in May 2005, the federal court of appeals for the 11 th Circuit, held that a Florida prison could forcibly cut a Native American’s hair even if he refused to do so for religious reasons. The court held that his hair could be cut despite the protections granted by the federal Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA) which provides the highest legal standard or protection for the religious rights of prison inmates. 
*Time is of the Essence*
In less than ten days from now Satnam’s beard could be forcibly shaved and his hair cut. We need your help now! Please take action immediately by signing our online petition and writing to the Governor of Florida and the Secretary of the Department of Corrections. Please be sure to copy satnamsingh@sikhcoalition.org on any correspondence.
----------------
We urge all Sikhs to practice their faith fearlessly. If someone tells you to remove your articles of faith, please report the incident online at www.sikhcoalition.org/ListReports.asp. 
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh!


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## rajsikh (Sep 28, 2006)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*



vijaydeep Singh said:


> Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh
> 
> Das can say it is good to Ban marrige of Patits in Gurudwara but let Sahijdharis like from Hindu or Muslims or other non Sikh family can be allowed to use Gurudwaras for Marrige as per Anand Karaj Ceromony.
> 
> ...


These kind of ban would complicate the situation more.I mean to say look at Chirstians thay are so divided on different isssues,which resulted in so many different christian groups.


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## Randip Singh (Sep 28, 2006)

S|kH said:


> There's a new ban on "short-haired" people getting married in the gurdwara.
> 
> Discuss. (I'll post my views soon).


 

I think its ridicoulous.

Monay's all come round to my house to get married because I have the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji here. :rofl!!: 

This has to be the most ridicoulous thing I have heard of all times.

Let us accept that Sikhs are diverse.........If we are going to ban Mona's I suggest we ban any beard trimmed Sikhs, dyed hair etc too.

FRom a progressive faith we are going Medieval methinks.


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## serinakaur (Sep 28, 2006)

Totally agree with you bhanji, 

we have to look at a persons self discipline at the internal level rather then just get caught up on the physical, but unfortunately that is something only the knower of our hearts, guruji/Waheguruji or a Santji can do. So we are not in any position to judge, restrict others from enjoying the blessing of marriage inclusive of guruji and his blessings. 

If we really want to kill our faith and our faith in others to change, then this ban will surely go a long long way to just that. Our youth today are struggling with so many issues already, if we reject them outright, (when many of there parents never intented to take amrit until they hit their 60's at least) then we literally have lost most of our new generation. Enforcing our faith on others is not the sikh way it something we have always fought against, forcing amrit on others is not what we do because its a love that is inspired. When its inspired from the very core the chances are it will last for life times(because liberation isn't achieved in one lifetime- just look at the life times of past Sants that have merged, it takes several lifetimes at least.)

So we cannot force others to keep their hair, but with the right encouragement, with an attitude to welcome rather the deter, maybe internal love to fully embrace sikhi will occur.

GURFATEH!

serina kaur.


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## serinakaur (Sep 28, 2006)

Totally agree with you bhanji, 

we have to look at a persons self discipline at the internal level rather then just get caught up on the physical, but unfortunately that is something only the knower of our hearts, guruji/Waheguruji or a Santji can do. So we are not in any position to judge, restrict others from enjoying the blessing of marriage inclusive of guruji and his blessings. 

If we really want to kill our faith and our faith in others to change, then this ban will surely go a long long way to just that. Our youth today are struggling with so many issues already, if we reject them outright, (when many of there parents never intented to take amrit until they hit their 60's at least) then we literally have lost most of our new generation. Enforcing our faith on others is not the sikh way it something we have always fought against, forcing amrit on others is not what we do because its a love that is inspired. When its inspired from the very core the chances are it will last for life times(because liberation isn't achieved in one lifetime- just look at the life times of past Sants that have merged, it takes several lifetimes at least.)

So we cannot force others to keep their hair, but with the right encouragement, with an attitude to welcome rather the deter, maybe internal love to fully embrace sikhi will occur.

GURFATEH!

serina kaur.


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## J.A.T.T (Oct 1, 2006)

Who gives a damn!  If these singhs don’t want us short hair people getting married in their gurdwara, then we short hair people will find another place to get married.


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## rajsikh (Oct 1, 2006)

J.A.T.T said:


> Who gives a damn!  If these singhs don’t want us short hair people getting married in their gurdwara, then we short hair people will find another place to get married.


its better everyone resolve matter bytalking instead of bycotting


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## J.A.T.T (Oct 1, 2006)

rajsikh said:


> its better everyone resolve matter bytalking instead of bycotting


 
 Talking will get us nowhere.  Action speaks louder than words, my friend.  If these gursikhs want ban short hair people, then short hair people should stop associating with these gursikhs.


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## dalsingh (Oct 2, 2006)

Is this ban true or actual fiction. I haven't heard about it!

Has anyone else?

Maybe this was an attempt to rouse our anger for no reason?


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## Archived_Member_19 (Oct 3, 2006)

i find this whole topic so funny...

people trying to show one-upmanship, ( apologies for harsh words) chest beating like gorillas.... trying to boost their ego by telling others that they are wrong..

this is just the trap SGGS warns all of us about..

i had good time and a hearty laugh reading this post..

my two cents

to me there is one God and only one God Akal Purakh, and whom i can only reach through meditation of the Name and purity of thoughts, simple living and showing love and concern for all...

rest all is moh Maya, Bharam jaal and dikhawa ( showoff)

if union with God was attained through dips in some holy water..the Fishes would have been the first ones,

similarly if keeping long hair was like a visa stamp before the union....billions would be in hell by now.... u know what i mean to say...

meditate on the etheral Name, and immerse your self into it...and you will find the Truth, for Akal Purakh is as much mine as it is your...and SGGS is a Guru to the whole world..and no rule on this whole earth can stop a student from taking vows in front of the Guru...

btw.. all the rehats etc are not mentioned ANYWHERE in the SGGS, my Guru...


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## max314 (Oct 5, 2006)

Discrimination breeds isolation.  Isolation breeds contempt.


Discrimination, isolation and contempt have no place in Sikkh philosophy.


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## max314 (Oct 5, 2006)

:advocate:



amarsanghera said:


> i find this whole topic so funny...
> 
> people trying to show one-upmanship, ( apologies for harsh words) chest beating like gorillas.... trying to boost their ego by telling others that they are wrong..
> 
> ...


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## LearningGuy (Oct 7, 2006)

What if someone wasn't a Sikh and his hair was short, and then he decided that he would become a Sikh, and he took the vow of 5 Ks (but his hair was still short), and he decides to get married.

His hair would be short even though he vowed from that point on he wouldn't cut it, wouldn't it be reasonable for him to be able to get married even though his hair hadn't grown to long lengths.


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## loving bani kaur (Oct 19, 2006)

*keep fighting lol, im not sure but isnt it gods will?*


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## kaur-1 (Oct 19, 2006)

dalsingh said:


> Is this ban true or actual fiction. I haven't heard about it!
> 
> Has anyone else?
> 
> Maybe this was an attempt to rouse our anger for no reason?



*
FICTION* is more like it. There is *NO BAN* anywhere.!

Never heard of such a ridiculous statement.!!!!

Dont forget dalsingh, this is the same person who posted the "Quran - To All Sikh Students"*.

*Can you spot a trouble maker or what? 

"rouse our anger for no reason" Ya To right!!


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## kds1980 (Oct 20, 2006)

the news is true.the ban is imposed by cgpc in jamshedpur


The Telegraph - Calcutta : Jharkhand
Gurdwaraban on short-hair marriage
PARVINDER BHATIA	

Jamshedpur, March 13: Buoyed by the success of the ban imposed on jeans-clad women from entering the Gurudwara premises, the Central Gurudwara Prabhandhak Committee (CGPC) here has decided to ban Sikhs with trimmed hair from getting married at gurudwaras.

According to CGPC officials, the step has been taken to uphold the religious customs of the community. They said the decision was taken after consulting senior members of the community. CGPC has written to the heads of 23 Gurudwara prabandhak committees in the city to implement the decision.

It has also warned the committees of strict action if they were found flouting the orders. ?The holy books have some directives on hair in our religion but it is sad that people, especially the youths, are shaving their beards and heads and disowning the sacred beliefs. It is essential to create an awareness among them,? said Sardar Shailendar Singh, a senior official of the CGPC.

Members, men or women, with trimmed hair will not be allowed to perform ?Anand Kharaj? (a religious marriage ceremony) on the Gurudwara premises. Senior CGPC vice-president Harbhajan Singh said the decision would work as a pressure tactic on youths so that they will learn to respect their hair.

?Hair is the identity of a Sikh but it is sad that trimming of hair has become a sort of fashion among youths. We have to made them realise the importance of our beliefs. The ban will also serve an eye opener for parents,? he said.

Singh, who is also the president of Sonari Gurudwara Prabhandhak Committee said the Gurudwaras have already started implementing the decision. However, the decision taken by the central body is set to snowball into a controversy as some members have started voicing their protest.

?The decision is unjustified. At a time when other religions are becoming liberal, how can the religious heads of our community be so rigid? We would protest the decision,? said Avatar Singh Nagi, a resident of Baridih. However, Sardar Shailendra Singh, president of CGPC, said only a small section of people was against are protesting the decision and they are ready to face any type of challenge.


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## dalsingh (Oct 20, 2006)

So instead of trying to bring them back in they are discarding them..........

This, I feel, is a perfect example of a d**khead decision from so called leaders...

Shabaash!

Who are the CGPC anyway, I've never heard of them?


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## TanuRani (Oct 22, 2006)

What im wondering is that ban is forcing a belief that can really come with deep love of God. I believe ppl have to go through their own journey to find themselves and become sikhs...b/c of the society we live in today, religion is not the utmost importance to ppl...they are busy in the worldly success...so forcing these ppl to do somethin for religion is not going to evoke their love for god...i believe it has to be through their failures...when they would realize God to be the destiny..but that will be a long long time from now...


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## supersurd (Nov 2, 2006)

Here in Bangkok, the ban is only on Sundays.....
the girls are all trimming cutting waxing, the works.....but men are trimming but if they remove their turbans and there is no hair then the sunday wedding is off and you can marry any other weekday.......
So to put things in perspective.......smoke drink gamble do drugs but without the long hair, you are less of a Sikh man.....but men who keep their hair can cheat in business, can smoke in pubs and bars besides drink there and they can sleep around as much as possible, they will be privilged because they keep longer hair....not that I cut my hair...its just that Sikhism is all about being tolerant and here we have bigots who try to isolate our religion from the rest of the world....


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## max314 (Nov 3, 2006)

If this ban is indeed true, then it is very sad news.

Having the honour of getting married in front of the Guru Granth Sahib - a text that contains the passage "when you are in love with the One God, duality and alienation depart...you may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald", and promotes the inclusion of all human beings under God regardless of caste, creed, culture, race, political orientation or religion - should not be the sole right of people who choose not to go to the barbers.

This is discrimination of the highest order; a favouritism based on what the _gyani_s prefer (i.e. people who dress and do things as they do things), and discrimination has no place in the Sikkh community.


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## max314 (Nov 3, 2006)

supersurd said:


> Here in Bangkok, the ban is only on Sundays.....
> the girls are all trimming cutting waxing, the works.....but men are trimming but if they remove their turbans and there is no hair then the sunday wedding is off and you can marry any other weekday.......
> So to put things in perspective.......smoke drink gamble do drugs but without the long hair, you are less of a Sikh man.....but men who keep their hair can cheat in business, can smoke in pubs and bars besides drink there and they can sleep around as much as possible, they will be privilged because they keep longer hair....not that I cut my hair...its just that Sikhism is all about being tolerant and here we have bigots who try to isolate our religion from the rest of the world....




Precisely.

Just because people choose not to cut their hair, it doesn't make them a good or bad person.  It is their actions that define a human being, and not how they dress (as it stated in the Granth, I believe).


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 4, 2006)

and those nitwit gayanis think thay can stop ppl frm getting married???

ROFL

well what is the difference between them and the priests in temples who donot allow sudras or even women to enter..


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## max314 (Nov 5, 2006)

amarsanghera said:


> and those nitwit gayanis think thay can stop ppl frm getting married???
> 
> ROFL
> 
> well what is the difference between them and the priests in temples who donot allow sudras or even women to enter..



There are none.

Tragic is the day when Sikkhs turn into Hindus.

_"The greatest enemy will always hide in the last place you would ever look."_


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## nirmaan_singh (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

In my humble opinion the Akal Takhat should issue a hukamnama in this respect, this is the only way I think people would be encouraged to stop cutting their hair....


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## max314 (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*



nirmaan_singh said:


> In my humble opinion the Akal Takhat should issue a hukamnama in this respect, this is the only way I think people would be encouraged to stop cutting their hair....



Why shouldn't people be entitled to cut their hair?


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## msghael (Dec 24, 2006)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*



S|kH said:


> Alright, now I have a little time on my hands, I shall post my views.
> 
> I am in favor of this ban.
> 
> ...


You seem to in direct communication with the Guru since you are quoting what the Guru says !!!!
With all this self interpretation of the SGGS you are doing what the Hindu Brahim Pandits were supposed to have been doing and aganst whom Guru Nanak Ji revolted !!!


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## msghael (Dec 24, 2006)

Have Kesh. Get married in a *Gurdwara.*
Eat beef, drink alcohol (even smoke) and be merry as many Keshdhari Sikhs do !!!!
*What hipocracy !!!!!*


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## J.A.T.T (Dec 24, 2006)

supersurd said:


> *Here in Bangkok, the ban is only on Sundays.....
> the girls are all trimming cutting waxing, the works.....but men are trimming but if they remove their turbans and there is no hair then the sunday wedding is off and you can marry any other weekday.......*
> So to put things in perspective.......smoke drink gamble do drugs but without the long hair, you are less of a Sikh man.....but men who keep their hair can cheat in business, can smoke in pubs and bars besides drink there and they can sleep around as much as possible, they will be privilged because they keep longer hair....not that I cut my hair...its just that Sikhism is all about being tolerant and here we have bigots who try to isolate our religion from the rest of the world....



Huh? This got to be the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life.  (No offense)

Sikhi is turning into Hinduism.   

For the record, women are NOT allow to cut their hair (like waxing, trimming) as well.  So this ban should ALSO apply to women too.


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## J.A.T.T (Dec 24, 2006)

msghael said:


> Have Kesh. Get married in a *Gurdwara.*
> Eat beef, drink alcohol (even smoke) and be merry as many Keshdhari Sikhs do !!!!
> *What hipocracy !!!!!*



Exactly.


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## jag69 (Dec 25, 2006)

Hey all 

Is this edict from the west...in this case Canada? Canadian indians (and any others living outside India) are always notorious for trying to be TOO strict and TOO punjabi. This is typical behaviour in OUR society.....I am more punjabi than you. Get over it. The guru's would NOT discriminate over anyone who marries infront of the Guru Garanth Sahib. Remember, ANYONE can come into the gurdwara and listen and pay their respects. 

I think if you respect each other and stop pretending to outdo others (in this case more punjabi) and concentrate on living...then we may have a chance for our religion to prosper instead of being INWARD looking. 

 Jag


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## truthseeker (Dec 25, 2006)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh

"Originally Posted by *msghael* 

 
_Have Kesh. Get married in a *Gurdwara.*
Eat beef, drink alcohol (even smoke) and be merry as many Keshdhari Sikhs do !!!!
*What hipocracy !!!!!"*_

_Very well said msghael ji, appearance should not be what bans you from being married in gurdwara. You could be a totally loving, kind and compassionate person without haing kesh, and you could be the worlds meanest person and have kesh. 
I totally think that yes, one should have kesh as it is a gift from Guru Sahib, but if you are going to have the outer appearance but nothing inside what is that point? 
When you go through anandkaraj with someone, it is a very sacred thing. It is like your souls become one and you promise to help eachother out on there path to God. Now, if you have kesh, have no urge to merge with God, what makes you so special to be "legable" to get married in from of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? ( sangat ji. please correct me if im wrong, as im a moorakh)
So i guess, dont get married in a Gurdwara because its tradition, get married in front of Guru Sahib because you truly believe in all the values, and responsibilities that come with Anandkaraj, be it you Keshdharee or not. _
_Bhul Chuk Maaf Karni

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh_


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## Lionchild (Dec 25, 2006)

S|kH said:


> There's a new ban on "short-haired" people getting married in the gurdwara.
> 
> Discuss. (I'll post my views soon).



This will be interesting, especially if converts or "born again" sikhs who may have cut hair, or just started to grow hair can't marry inside one of these temples. Always moving on from one screw up to screw up when it comes to management....


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## kds1980 (Dec 25, 2006)

Lionchild said:


> This will be interesting, especially if converts or "born again" sikhs who may have cut hair, or just started to grow hair can't marry inside one of these temples. Always moving on from one screw up to screw up when it comes to management....



lionchild please read my post on page no.13 of this thread.this ban is imposed by cgpc in jharkhand only.


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## jag69 (Dec 25, 2006)

Every religion has hard core extremists who have committed much sin in their lives, and before they go to the almighty, decide to extract one simple meaning and then apply it to something as ludicrous as banning people cause they cut their hair.  It is usually those with little intellect (mind you the intellects may do the same)....that jump onto a particular fad or fashion.  

Most of the people here are reasonable, it is indeed being married infront of _Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji _that is the important thing.  Couple of side issues, NO ONE person owns a Gurdwara nor should these fanatics ask for donations that BUILT that gurdwara.  Also, the Amritdharee's are NOT all that way.  Like all types, a few bring their own ideas into play and destroy the reputation of others.
Respect.  JAg


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## k s gadh (Dec 28, 2006)

S|kH said:


> There's a new ban on "short-haired" people getting married in the gurdwara.
> 
> Discuss. (I'll post my views soon).


 In these days when our community strength in numbers is decreasing day be day we should not shake the faith of those sikh families whose children are clean shaven due to reason what so ever, by putting ban on short haired people getting married in gurudwara.  our community should come forward by  
converting non sikhs to sikhism as other religions are doing like Nirankaris. christians etc. Our religion doesn't say that non sikhs can not come to the gurudawaras\can not listen gurbani \can not read our holy books\can not participate in our processions\can not sit in langar.  Our religious heads should announce new ideas in a modern way just to flourish the sikhism like Nirankaris and christans.  In the coming days if we want to save our religion then we should be liberal.  we should not hurt the sentiments of our community people , whose families ae mixed.  I appeal to our religious heads please take some concreate steps for increasing the number of persons with long hair and turbans.  If our religious heads are really serious then they should start the work from their own families\village\town.  Just by putting ban on the marriages of short hair people in gurudawaras is not going to help the religion.  we are living in 21st century and not in 15th  or 16th century.


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## k s gadh (Dec 28, 2006)

I really agree with the views of veer jag ji enrolment no.3459. I want to give 100% marks to their views. No body is saying to change the religious books\ gurbani written by our Ten Gurus.  Full respect should be given to the religious books and gurbani but banning short haired people marriages is not mature thinking.


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## kds1980 (Dec 28, 2006)

k s gadh said:


> In these days when our community strength in numbers is decreasing day be day we should not shake the faith of those sikh families whose children are clean shaven due to reason what so ever, by putting ban on short haired people getting married in gurudwara.  our community should come forward by
> converting non sikhs to sikhism as other religions are doing like Nirankaris. christians etc. Our religion doesn't say that non sikhs can not come to the gurudawaras\can not listen gurbani \can not read our holy books\can not participate in our processions\can not sit in langar.  Our religious heads should announce new ideas in a modern way just to flourish the sikhism like Nirankaris and christans.  In the coming days if we want to save our religion then we should be liberal.  we should not hurt the sentiments of our community people , whose families ae mixed.  I appeal to our religious heads please take some concreate steps for increasing the number of persons with long hair and turbans.  If our religious heads are really serious then they should start the work from their own families\village\town.  Just by putting ban on the marriages of short hair people in gurudawaras is not going to help the religion.  we are living in 21st century and not in 15th  or 16th century.



a very practical post.i totaly agree with you


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## sikh78910 (Dec 30, 2006)

Lol ok now this is a very far fetched and crazy "what iff" lol,  Butttt it COULD happen....

now WHAT IFFF a clean shaven woman lol with short hair, and a cleanshaven mannn without shorthair one day go to get married.

Sitting in front of the guru granth sahib thinking about the long life ahead of them, the hundreds of trials and tribulations they will have to face, the gorgeous and innocent children they know they will one day have, the man and woman start thinking some more....

they think further to the trials and tribulations they have faced in the past- the suffering, the deaths, young, old. they realise that their lives have been meaningless and shallow- attatchement to maya, the man a recently recovered alcoholic, his dabbling with drugs at a young age, cheating on girlfriends, never getting along with his parents or siblings- lust, pride, ego, greed, attatchement, intoxicants........ the woman, also having dabbled with alcohol, smoking, bitchiness and backstabbing, the manyy sleepless nights since childhood, the fear of the dark that still haunts her to this day, lust, pride, ego, attatchement, intoxicantss.........

 the man eyeing up another woman only just before entering the gurudwarra- ON HIS OWN WEDDING DAY. 

their thoughts jump quickly to the long lives ahead of them- their beautiful children- "do we really want our children to grow up and be the way we were, to experience evil and hatred, anger and uncontrollable lust, to ruin their precious bodies physical, mind and spirit?"

they both come to a realisation and finally make a silent vow, their faces both seem suddenly illuminated and they are in a state of happiness and peace for the first time in their lives, sitting in front of the guru granth sahib, listening to the granthi pray. 

the next week they take amrit.

they never look back.

either do their children.

either do their childrens children.

either do their childrens childrens children or their childrens childrens childrens children.

u get my drift.

think people, dont segregate, give people time- patience continence acceptance, understanding, read the guru granth sahib, these are virtues looked on the most favourably by god.


just because you think youre already there, give everyone a chance. who knows, theyre probably more virtuous than yourself. 

Your the lowest of the low, your the dust of a beggars feet-..... your the dust of a sehjdharis feet. this is the way i think because it is the way the gurus thought and preached for us to think. If everyone had this same mindset this thread would never have been started......
im not perfect, far from it but who am i to judge someone, when GOD IS IN US ALL.


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## sikh78910 (Dec 30, 2006)

so may i please point outttt

that this stupid ban, could potentially wipe out generations and generations of potential amritdharis, just because you fanatic supporters of this ban...AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU AREE!...couldnt accept the fact that they were different. 


not everyones born an amritdhari so if youre a crazy amritdhari who supports this ban u need to understand this fact. im gna bribe you all right about now and sayyyy......

that if you dont introduce this ban youll have MORE PEOPLE BECOMING AMRITDHARIS.......... and thats a fact....

hope this bribe works......lol.


peace out

Sikh.


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## sikh78910 (Dec 30, 2006)

Oh yeh and S|kH
'
just let me say SHAME ON YOU.

I really dont think youve ever listened to tupac in ur LIFE have you?

interpret your quote for me please...let me refresh ur mind 

"I got love for my brother but we can never go nowhere
unless we share with each other
We gotta start makin' changes 
learn to see me as a brother instead of 2 distant strangers" -2pac

it dont matter WHO  gets married in the gurudwarra- if TUPAC was still alive id be encouraging him to marry in the gurudwarra- hed get a HUGEEEEE BLESSING and we would have taught him about sikhi in no time. 

give someone an inch, n theyll wanna go the whole mile

tell someone the start of a story, n theyll wanna know the end.

give someone a taste of sikhi, n theyll want the whole meal....


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## kds1980 (Dec 30, 2006)

> that this stupid ban, could potentially wipe out generations and generations of potential amritdharis, just because you fanatic supporters of this ban...AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU AREE!...couldnt accept the fact that they were different.



totaly agree with it.these types of ban will drift away not only sikhs but also hindus from gurudwaras.recently my brother's hindu teacher opted for simple gurudwara marriage.


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## J.A.T.T (Dec 31, 2006)

Who gives a damn! If these singhs don’t want us short hair people getting married in their gurdwara, then we short hair people will find another place to get married.


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## Lionchild (Jan 1, 2007)

J.A.T.T said:


> Who gives a damn! If these singhs don’t want us short hair people getting married in their gurdwara, then we short hair people will find another place to get married.



Yes soo true! In my background, we don't grow bearss hehe! Anyways, i guess they will shooting themselves in the foot then.


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## J.A.T.T (Jan 1, 2007)

Lionchild said:


> Yes soo true! In my background, we don't grow bearss hehe! Anyways, i guess they will shooting themselves in the foot then.



LOL

But seriously though, this ban will cause more hate for Sikhi and Sikhs.  The last thing Sikhs want is more enemies.  Also a lot of Christian and Muslim missionaries will take advantage of this situation and try to convert short hair people like myself.


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## sikh78910 (Jan 2, 2007)

> Also a lot of Christian and Muslim missionaries will take advantage of this situation and try to convert short hair people like myself.


 
Woahhhh i never thought of that one!! lets just hope no militant muslims or christians come on here and read this!... lol.


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## kds1980 (Jan 2, 2007)

sikh78910 said:


> Woahhhh i never thought of that one!! lets just hope no militant muslims or christians come on here and read this!... lol.



not only christian and muslim missionaries but nirankari's,radhaswami,noormalia
and many other hindu sadhu sant's will also take advantage of this.


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## J.A.T.T (Jan 5, 2007)

sikh78910 said:


> Woahhhh i never thought of that one!! lets just hope no militant muslims or christians come on here and read this!... lol.



I am sure there are couple of them on this website.


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Jan 29, 2007)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*

Gurufateh

What i hv heard about long hairs in Sikhi
is that when our great people were on war
there hair grew up...
thats why the tradition was followed in order to honour them
but the Amrit chakana was not only to people that were having Long hairs only
starting from GuruNanak dev ji..

Bhai Bala , Mardana all were not having Long Hairs..

As told in other posts SIKH in not outer appearance
but it is state on the way to Bhakti(meditation of Holy name)
word SIKH(Punjabi) means Disciple(English) or Shishya(hindi)


Amerikaur said:


> I'm really not sure.
> 
> How is a "mona" determined? And who does it?
> 
> ...


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## tkaur (Apr 26, 2007)

It is nice to have a discussion on this topic. Everyone has their own opinion. And I'm going to give mine. 
I do not think this ban has any bone. Why are we as Sikhs becoming so unwelcoming? Due to these kind of attitudes, we have not been able to spread Sikhi and it's doctrine. First the ones who are in charge need to show how to follow this great way of life then we'll be able to attract others and our own to perfection.
Anand Karaj was created to to give Sikhs a simple, humble, and short marriage ceremony. What have our people made out of it. There are so many rituals being done at Anand Karajs that it is loosing its meaning.
Let us open our hearts and bring our loved to Sikhi and its way of life with open arms!


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## msghael (Apr 29, 2007)

SSA T Kaur Ji,
I agree 100%. Let those imposing this ban also ban those not contributing 10% of their income to the gurudwara. Let them also ban thos who consume alcohol. let them also ban who have extra-marital sex or commit adultery. Let them aslo ban all who are addicted to any drug in any form  because all the above are explicity banned in our scriptures.
Let us not be hipocretes as was my experience at the Harminder Sahib in 1978. Those "donating" in coins when bowing to the GURU were given patasha as parshad and those donating in "notes" were given Kara Parsad !!
WGKK WGKF
Maninder Singh


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## Singh13 (Apr 29, 2007)

I am not agree with this ban because that will cause more hatred in our own community.  People who has short hair they might be the one more connected to guru that a full fledg sardar. Apperace does make a difference, i agree with that but what about those people who are full sardar but constantly think about getting their hair cut but they can't do it cuz of the image they have. What about them ? Baning short hair will give an upper hand to hindu's and muslims to convert our people into their relegion. Now days gurdwara's are open under the caste's such as jatt, ramgaria, makhan shah labana than other gurdwara's will open up such as mona's gurdwara. Banning a short marriage in gurdwara is not a solving a problem it will basically create more problem and more hatred towards gursikh. It also affect the concept of Harminder sahib having a 4 doors that everyone is welcome but on the other hand we are just stoping our own blood not to get marry in the gurdwara.
Some people cut their hair for some reason and they might want to have their children a gursikh than what if they didn't get marry in the gurdwara u think they will have their kids get marry there to or their kids will think well you guys didn't accept my father in the gurdwara cuz he had short hai screw u i am not gonna accept u. 

These are some of things i though of maybe other people will think that too if short hair ban does happen. 

wgkk wgkf

bhull chuk maff.


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## Beeba (May 7, 2007)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*



luthra_sumeet said:


> Please note that uncut hair was required from guru nanak's time , It is a misconception that people have that only the khalsa created by Guru Gobind singh ji and thereafter had hair uncut but this is not so.
> every rehat that khalsa had after 1699 vaisakhi was present even before that from Guru nanak's time. The way amrit was to be taken had changed after 1699.
> 
> regarding the marriage aspect i believe that if we shun the people who are presently are not following Sikhi, we will never be able to take them back in our fold. If we dont shun them there is possibility we could have our brothers/sisters realise sometime that what they miss being outside sikhi.
> ...


You say that that uncut hair was required of a Sikh even before Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time, please provide proof for this claim, thank you! 

-Beeba


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## Beeba (May 7, 2007)

Singh13 said:


> I am not agree with this ban because that will cause more hatred in our own community. People who has short hair they might be the one more connected to guru that a full fledg sardar. Apperace does make a difference, i agree with that but what about those people who are full sardar but constantly think about getting their hair cut but they can't do it cuz of the image they have. What about them ? Baning short hair will give an upper hand to hindu's and muslims to convert our people into their relegion. Now days gurdwara's are open under the caste's such as jatt, ramgaria, makhan shah labana than other gurdwara's will open up such as mona's gurdwara. Banning a short marriage in gurdwara is not a solving a problem it will basically create more problem and more hatred towards gursikh. It also affect the concept of Harminder sahib having a 4 doors that everyone is welcome but on the other hand we are just stoping our own blood not to get marry in the gurdwara.
> Some people cut their hair for some reason and they might want to have their children a gursikh than what if they didn't get marry in the gurdwara u think they will have their kids get marry there to or their kids will think well you guys didn't accept my father in the gurdwara cuz he had short hai screw u i am not gonna accept u.
> 
> These are some of things i though of maybe other people will think that too if short hair ban does happen.
> ...


 

I totally agree with what you are saying, these types of bans are only going to stratify and segregate our community. Being one of the youngest religions, we are already so divided amongst ourselves, why create more division and hatred? By this ban, Sikhs are pushing away their own and the generations to come and it will only create conflict and ill will. I think the fundamental concepts of Sikhi are being forgotten, morals that are the defining facets of Sikhism. These being, EQUALITY, JUSTICE, UNIVERSITALITY, BROTHER/SISTER-HOOD, LOVE, PEACE, ONE-NESS WITH GOD, SHARING, SANGAT (please forgive me for any mistakes...)
First of all, I don't believe that any where in the SGGS, Dasam Granth, Rehit Nama etc. does it say that Monas should not get married in the Gurdwara, even non-sikhs. 
You (whom ever presented this idea of banning) think you are going to create more sikhs by banning them? This is not the way to do it. When a child does something wrong, the mother does not simply kick him/her out, she makes hiim understand, loves him and coaxes him into coming to reason. 
I personally think that Amrit chakna is a very personal thing, a huge step in our faith and ofcourse only from "gur prasad" or by God's blessing can this miracle occur. One cannot merely force another to do this. Yes, parents can teach their children the Sikh way of life, but more importantly they should lead by example and virtue. And even if they have done this, they can only pray and hope that their children will enter the heavenly bliss known as Khalsa. Also, just by keeping the 5 k's, one is not going to be a true Sikh or become khalsa, one must have the emotional and spiritual will power that was ever so present in Guru Gobind Singh ji's Singhs. My friends, this is a great sacrifice, but banning one's own is not going to fix anything.   
Thank you and God bless, 
-Beeba


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## FiveLovedOnes (Jun 6, 2007)

:advocate:* Ok let us not keep things to ourselves n figure out what is right in the eyes of Guru 's eyes.Let us consider the the true story of 40 sikhs fighting mugal forces along with Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sahib.When 40 sikhs refused to accept the Hukum or order of Guru Guru immediately ask them to give in writing that they r not his Sikhs n he is not their Guru anymore if they leave the fort without obeying his order.They left the fort n GURU LEFT THEM TOO ALL TOGETHER (NOTE THIS) N NOWTHE 40 SIKHS WERE ON THEIR OWN WITH THEIR OWN FATE N DESTINY.

They returned back to guru after being badly felt ashamed of their foolish act of disobeying the guru N badly insulted by their own wives n locals.They came back to guru n AGREED THAT THEY WILL OBEY HIS ORDERS N FIGHT WITH THE MUGAL FORCES. NOTE THIS: Only when they obeyed Guru's Hukum Guru Gobind Singh accepted them as his Singhs n Khalsas.Guru blessing them as immortals n many other blessings were showered upon them.Even the Guru rejects those who disobey his Hukums n so who r we to accept then still as sikhs.Those not allowed in gurudwaras now will feel ashamed when not allowed to enter Gurudwaras every time they visit there n realised of thier mistake n many will return to sikhi again.Don't worry much about what will happen with the ban.This panth needs strong n bold people n not cowards who hide their identity with slight strong wind/storm.Sikh religion was formed with bold n strongs who accepted hardest Hukums of Guru.First was giving away one's head before Guru's sword at the time of Khalsa panth formation ceremony-Vaisakhi.

Also during 1984 Bluestar operation strong n bold sikhs came forward to fight back against Indian forces while weak remained in their houses n came out when golden temple was demolished.Weak sikhs do no good to themselves n to the community n so why we be much worried about them.Afterall it is individual duty of each Sikh to make himself/herself strong spiritually,religiously,physically n mentally.Outside help works to a small extent n finally for long race one has to win on his/her feet all with self help n Guru's help.

Let strongs come forward n let weak remain behind.They will join the strong soon if they can.Don't worry much.

From this incident it is clearly evident that SIKHI IS ABOUT OBEYING GURU'S HUKUMS.Those who obey are Sikhs or Khalsas.

Those who disobey Guru's orders r Patits(LOST in true sense) n r not sikhs at all.Then why a non-sikh should turn back to Guru's Dawar for marriage n help.Why Should Sikhs accept them when Guru himself rejects them.Disobeying Guru's orders/Bachans r similar to giving in writing to Guru that U r not my Guru anymore.In return Guru says I am not your Guru anymore.

Unless n Untill A patit accepts Guru's Bachans n return back to Guru n follow his orders he will be considered as a patit sikh.
Let the patit sikhs be pushed away from sikh population n gurudwaras as Guru has already pushed them away from his heart.
Anyway we don't need weak sikhs in our community as they will further weaken our population.So ban on non-sikhs(men n women who remove a single hair from their body or trim it) from getting married in Gurudwara is a good step ahead.:advocate: *


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## Beeba (Jun 7, 2007)

*"Anyway we don't need weak sikhs in our community as they will further weaken our population.So ban on non-sikhs(men n women who remove a single hair from their body or trim it) from getting married in Gurudwara is a good step ahead.":advocate:*[/quote]

Since when is Sikhism like a game of the "survival of the fittest"?
 The Sikh Dharam is an inner journey of spirituality and enlightenment, and it comes in all shapes and sizes. Who are you to say, this sikh is better than
the rest or... lower? Only God can tell who is good and who is bad. Also, the essence of Sikhism is equality. What, are we going to start judging our very own because they might not hold gold stars in your book? Thats a pretty shallow mind set you got there "five loved ones" :hmm:


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## FiveLovedOnes (Jun 7, 2007)

Beeba said:


> *"Anyway we don't need weak sikhs in our community as they will further weaken our population.So ban on non-sikhs(men n women who remove a single hair from their body or trim it) from getting married in Gurudwara is a good step ahead.":advocate:*


 
Since when is Sikhism like a game of the "survival of the fittest"?
 The Sikh Dharam is an inner journey of spirituality and enlightenment, and it comes in all shapes and sizes. Who are you to say, this sikh is better than
the rest or... lower? Only God can tell who is good and who is bad. Also, the essence of Sikhism is equality. What, are we going to start judging our very own because they might not hold gold stars in your book? Thats a pretty shallow mind set you got there "five loved ones" :hmm:[/quote]

*Read the history of sikhs first n find out urself if Sikhs r not "survival of the fittest".Directly or indirectly they emerged as Survival of the fittest by truely following Guru's path.Millions of sacrifices have been made by sikhs of past for not giving up their hairs n their faith n today we like fools see everything before us happening n instead of uniting n eliminating these bads out of our religion we r fighting among ourself n blaming each other who is to decide.Do u think that Guru himself will come down to bring reforms among Sikhs.Guru has apppointed such a big army to do wonders on this planet n he himself called us all khalsas n our job is to be like a khalsas ourself n also help others lifted to the level of khalsa.Those who fail will perish by this deadly ocean.This is a fact.Mind  it.Has our Guru made us fools that we cannot decide who is right n who is not.What u r looking for.Do U want to sit n see the things changing before ur eyes n still be quite.U may be like that but I am not.:}--}:
Tell me r u a gold star n how come u judge that i am not a gold star.whatever form or shape I am in i am always proud of being born as a sikh n a guru ka sikh n will always favor those who work for sikhi n not those who simply sit n critise those who favor reforms.What a bunch of losers this koom has.Come on go out n run 2 miles n get some oxygen blood in ur brain so that u can focuss more towards reforms rather than taking sick.And what is this Beeba.No Kaur added.What do u feel degraded by adding kaur to ur name.Read my comments with a postive mind n keep ur negative mind in a cage.:}--}:
*


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## Beeba (Jun 8, 2007)

i think you didn't understand by what I meant as in gold stars. It was not an accusation or negative comment towards you. Sorry for that. And also, you are the one critizing all over the place

"*What a bunch of losers this koom has"*
*"Come on go out n run 2 miles n get some oxygen blood in ur brain so that u can focuss more towards reforms rather than taking sick.And what is this Beeba.No Kaur added.What do u feel degraded by adding kaur to ur name."*

*Clearly I am not the one doing the critizing here! *
*I am a very open and liberal minded person. I believe that there is an inner strengh that can only "reform" oneself. We must awaken that in our selves through some way else-paath, naam, meditation, seva..., not by banning others out of our community.  If you are willing to see or understand what I am saying, then do, but if you can't then it does not affect me. Thank you*
*=Beeba *


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## FiveLovedOnes (Jun 8, 2007)

Beeba said:


> i think you didn't understand by what I meant as in gold stars. It was not an accusation or negative comment towards you. Sorry for that. And also, you are the one critizing all over the place
> 
> "*What a bunch of losers this koom has"*
> *"Come on go out n run 2 miles n get some oxygen blood in ur brain so that u can focuss more towards reforms rather than taking sick.And what is this Beeba.No Kaur added.What do u feel degraded by adding kaur to ur name."*
> ...


*
Banning is the last resort these patits have left for us.It has been many years we have been trying to bring them on the track but they don't want to n instead they r spoiling other gursikhs n sikhi.Gurudwaras have become political grounds for them n they r destroying the very meaning of sikhi n gurudwaras.How long one will bear all these.Recently in chandigarh gurudwaras banned girls wearing jeans as they were spoiling gursikh girls too.A good step taken though late.But had great impact on young girls.Same will happen with these hair cut sikhs n hair trimming girls when not allowed in gurudwaras.why r u so much concerned with change.*
*Remember those who don't make reforms finally perish n r lost.Read history of sikhs to know more how much sikhs have struggled to keep sikhi in good shape.U should better keep undating urself with history of sikhs.
U don't worry much about these  reforms Beeba.Have patience n wait for good results to come.Sat Shri Akal.
*


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## bitnam (Aug 31, 2007)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I haven't read through everyone's responses, however I get the general drift. 

Rather than ban monas from having an anand marriage perhaps we could try to enforce pre-conditions that until such time that a person is willing to undergo the path of Sikhi then they will not qualify for Anand Marriage. By doing this we would not necessarily be banning anyone from taking Anand Marriage, rather giving them an option with conditions. 

Any person wanting such a marriage would need to satisfy some qualifying criteria, eg undergoing studies into Sikhi;attending the Gurdwara regularly and understanding why they attend; being able to recite some of the simple prayers and of course exhibit the outward signs of Sikhi.

For those who wish not to do so they can go and get married in the registry office and one day once they are ready to accept the tennets of Sikhi then they can come back and partake in the Anand Marriage in order to solemise their marriage. Even if it takes them many years. Well, within reason of course...I mean you don't want your kids to attend your wedding?


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## J.A.T.T (Sep 1, 2007)

bitnam said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
> Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
> 
> I haven't read through everyone's responses, however I get the general drift.
> ...



Or those people will end up following some other religion instead.


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## kds1980 (Sep 1, 2007)

J.A.T.T said:


> Or those people will end up following some other religion instead.



Following other religion is not easy in strict traditional societies.do you think amritdhari parents will accept their son' marrying in mandir or masjid.their society will immiediately declare them out caste.what these people will do is that they will grow their hair before
marriage and then they will cut it again after marriage.That's why i am against any kind of
this type of ban.


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## bitnam (Sep 1, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Following other religion is not easy in strict traditional societies.do you think amritdhari parents will accept their son' marrying in mandir or masjid.their society will immiediately declare them out caste.what these people will do is that they will grow their hair before
> marriage and then they will cut it again after marriage.That's why i am against any kind of
> this type of ban.


 
Gurfateh Ji,

Maybe we should conduct surveys within our Gurdwaras to get a real consensus on this and other issues. I think I might just do that at my local Gurdwara.

Personally, I think that the idea would appeal to members of the public. I also believe that if someone has made the effort to grow their hair and taken time to learn more about the faith they are not going to throw it all away in an instant. Also once one starts on the path of Sikhi its amazing how quickly one can become genuinley interested. 

By the way, where did this ban idea come from?


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## jag69 (Oct 8, 2007)

And we wonder why the youth are not attracted to the teachings of Sikhism!   Absurd...who is going to police this?  So if a woman shaves under her armpits, then she is banned from her wedding?  If a guy is an elite athlete and has to shave his legs then he is banned?  You are making this religion far too complicated.  

So it is ok to then grow your hair for the wedding, and then shave it off for the reception?  Or should we say they may NEVER cut their hair?  

Who ever is making these rules are evangelists who have flawed logic.  It is NOT a sin to cut hair or whatever, I am a far better sikh than most because my HEART and soul follows the gurus...it is the way of living and not dictated to by some local gurdwara.


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## Tash (Nov 2, 2007)

*Re: "Short-hair" Ban on Gurdwara Marriages*



hira said:


> Sikhism was initiated by Guru Nanak Dev Ji and progressed until the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. It was then that the concept of the Khalsa started. My question : were all the Sikhs who died prior to the creation of the Khalsa "bad people" ? To me, Sikhism is a way of life, I prefer to live by the teachings of Guru Nanak. How can one ban the marriage of someone who has decided to cut his / her hair ? I have seen people who are Amrithdari and are more evil than those who have cut their hair. Plus 2pac is dead, get over it.


Wjkk wjkf
sikhs are students and will obey what their Gurus tell them. From Guru Nanak to Guru Granth There is ONE jot in our Gurus, Nanak. So, the 10th Nanak, kalngidhar pita asked us to keep our hair, etc so we do it... Thats that.


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## jaskaransingh (Dec 3, 2007)

i dont understand who has applied the ban is it delhi or amritsar and does it apply to blethi countries


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## Archived_Member1 (Dec 3, 2007)

jag69 said:


> I am a far better sikh than most because my HEART and soul follows the gurus...it is the way of living and not dictated to by some local gurdwara.


 

wow, and humble too!


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## drkhalsa (Dec 3, 2007)

> And we wonder why the youth are not attracted to the teachings of Sikhism! Absurd...who is going to police this? So if a woman shaves under her armpits, then she is banned from her wedding? If a guy is an elite athlete and has to shave his legs then he is banned? You are making this religion far too complicated.
> 
> So it is ok to then grow your hair for the wedding, and then shave it off for the reception? Or should we say they may NEVER cut their hair?
> 
> Who ever is making these rules are evangelists who have flawed logic. It is NOT a sin to cut hair or whatever, I am a far better sikh than most because my HEART and soul follows the gurus...it is the way of living and not dictated to by some local gurdwara.



You can be quite right my friend !

dont be upset after reading thses posts . these are just the viws that people carry and are for disscusion 

You are right in saying that the way Sikh religions has been made to appear complicated has drived the youth away


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## satwant (Jan 29, 2008)

Having a ban in place will undo all the good all of us have been trying to do. To save the religion from extinction. It will drive people away from our religion as there are too many rules. 

No other religion has any issues with keeping hair except Sikhism.  Why is  it that only  Sikhism has a requirement of keeping unshorn hair? Perhaps, we were meant to be stand out from the rest. Perhaps, we were the chosen ones. Guruji have given us the reasons and yet many do not follow and yet many have different versions of what is right and what is wrong.

The only way to salvage the situation is through education. Just like we do with our children. We teach them. We make them understand the rationale. We give them examples. Why can't we do with the grown ups. We are never perfect. We make mistakes and there are times we need another person to help us see the light. Why are we so quick to pass judgments? 

Satwant


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## wizesikh (Feb 20, 2008)

Against the ban....  

Instead help them realize what it means to be a Sikh, and how their new life together can be secured with the concepts and understanding of Gurbani.

Those Sikhs who wish to cut WILL CUT no matter what, and those who refuse to CUT will NOT CUT no matter what.


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## jag69 (Feb 20, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> wow, and humble too!


 
He he...bought the response to attention...so the advertisement worked. Prefer if the rest of the message was responded to....he he he.


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## Archived_Member1 (Feb 20, 2008)

drkhalsa said:


> You are right in saying that the way Sikh religions has been made to appear complicated has drived the youth away





you just made me think of something.   the religion has been made to APPEAR complicated.

but what is more complicated?  shaving every day, trimming, waxing, threading, worrying about every fashion trend and hair accessory?

or simply letting it grow the way it was meant to? 


thought provoking.


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## Astroboy (Feb 21, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> you just made me think of something. the religion has been made to APPEAR complicated.
> 
> but what is more complicated? shaving every day, trimming, waxing, threading, worrying about every fashion trend and hair accessory?
> 
> ...


 

This gives me another idea. When people ask you, "why are you NOT keeping with the trend ?" and the answer is quite simply, " because cutting your hair, trimming your beard, waxing, threading was never meant to be and anybody who IS doing it is not only fighting a life-long battle but also losing the battle. GOD sent hair will keep on coming no matter what you do to eliminate this 'enemy' LOL. So change your attitude toward's God's cause and cheer up."


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## Joginder Singh Foley (Feb 21, 2008)

I my humble view as an irishman who adopted sikhi more than twenty year ago there is nothing to diccuss *READ THE RULES AND REGS* Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and rehit maryada, Rules and Regs are there for a reason wither running a railway playing sports heath and saftey rules at work *OR A CODE OF CONDUCT IN A RELIGION SIKHI *or other,the five Kakkars, ie Kesk uncut hair and beard end of problem, i willsupport such a ban


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## badshah (Feb 3, 2011)

You guys have such narrow thinking.........

What happened when alcohol was banned?  People setup illegal distilleries and mobs made big profts

Do you really think that monas will not get a Sikh marriage?  Ofcourse they will there is money to be made a some giani will simply say give me £5K and I will do your marriage around the SGGSJ

What makes you think that they will go running off to mandirs.....

Anyway, what is stopping monas from setting up mona gurudwaras?  APparently in Canada they are already doing it 

Also a mona could get married without getting noticed its not as if people tell you to take off your pagh to see if you have a jura!

Also what does getting married mean today?  It does not mean walking around the SGGSJ to live through marriage the SIkh way, it means walking around as a ritual and then going to a party afterwards and never thinking about SGSJ again

This is the same for other religions to..... things have just turned into rituals


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## spnadmin (Feb 3, 2011)

badshah ji

This is a rather old thread with the last post about 3 years old. But in many ways your observations hold true. As a matter of fact however the ban on short hair/Sikh marriages never really took firm hold. The decision is ultimately made by the granthi who is approached -- not many say no. And when they do one is usually looking at a sangat which is collectively more committed to traditional Sikh identity (perhaps a poor choice of words on my part).


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