# Whats That Pain Between Eyebrows When Meditating?



## kggr001

When I lately start meditating, I feel intense pain between eyebrows but then little bit up. It takes away all the concentration it feels like something is flowing out there.

Can someone tell me what this is? And how I can prevent it.


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## Ishna

Maybe you're straining your eyes. Try meditating with your eyes open a little bit and your sight settled on a spot on the floor a comfortable distance away. Even if you start your meditation this way and close your eyes later but maintaining that kind of relaxaton in your eyes.


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## Harry Haller

kggr001 said:


> When I lately start meditating, I feel intense pain between eyebrows but then little bit up. It takes away all the concentration it feels like something is flowing out there.
> 
> Can someone tell me what this is? And how I can prevent it.



try not meditating in front of a magnifying glass at noon...


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## kggr001

Ishna said:


> Maybe you're straining your eyes. Try meditating with your eyes open a little bit and your sight settled on a spot on the floor a comfortable distance away. Even if you start your meditation this way and close your eyes later but maintaining that kind of relaxaton in your eyes.



Thanks, I do feel my eyes straining often during meditation, I also tried to meditate with partly open eyes, however that way I can't really concentrate.


Isna ji I also feel it when I just concentrate on that place.


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## kggr001

harry haller said:


> try not meditating in front of a magnifying glass at noon...



I meditate usually really late arround 1 am.


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## chazSingh

kggr001 said:


> When I lately start meditating, I feel intense pain between eyebrows but then little bit up. It takes away all the concentration it feels like something is flowing out there.
> 
> Can someone tell me what this is? And how I can prevent it.



are you trying to focus your attention there? during meditation?

It could be strain like the other members have stated if your trying to hard to focus there...

or it could be your inner eye chakra activating...so you may feel pressure there...or see light whilst your eyes are closed...

if you're focusing there and straining your eyes as a result..then best to avoid this  or just don't focus so hard...

just relax through your meditation...you cannot force anything...
eventually you will know if its just eye strain or something more fruitful in a spiritual sense


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## kggr001

chazSingh said:


> are you trying to focus your attention there? during meditation?
> 
> It could be strain like the other members have stated if your trying to hard to focus there...
> 
> or it could be your inner eye chakra activating...so you may feel pressure there...or see light whilst your eyes are closed...
> 
> if you're focusing there and straining your eyes as a result..then best to avoid this  or just don't focus so hard...
> 
> just relax through your meditation...you cannot force anything...
> eventually you will know if its just eye strain or something more fruitful in a spiritual sense



Chaz singh ji, I don't feel it like a plessure it takes my concentration away and makes me focus on my the inner eye chakra which makes the tingling/pain worse.

When the tingling starts to occur I start concentrating on it. I think its the tingling which cause my eyes to strain.


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## chazSingh

kggr001 said:


> Chaz singh ji, I don't feel it like a plessure it takes my concentration away and makes me focus on my the inner eye chakra which makes the tingling/pain worse.
> 
> I think its the tingling which cause my eyes to strain.




usually when people intentionally focus in that region, they end up just over straining their eyes and self imploding 

If you are not *intentionally* focusing on that region and are still getting these tingles/pain...then try to reduce the amount of meditation for a little while...and see how that goes...try various things...

some signs of third eye region activating is pressure in between eyebrows...tapping sensation...pressure..etc etc and sometimes manifestation of light...


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## Canada

I've had this happen; it is the anya chakra, or at least that's what I thought it was.
Are you wearing dastaar while meditating? The way I wear mine tends to re-distribute that kind of pressure higher up.


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## kggr001

Canada said:


> I've had this happen; it is the anya chakra, or at least that's what I thought it was.
> Are you wearing dastaar while meditating? The way I wear mine tends to re-distribute that kind of pressure higher up.



Canada ji  I wear nothing on my head when I meditate. Do you also feel that flow/tingling when you put your head against someone else head?


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## Canada

kggr001 said:


> Canada ji  I wear nothing on my head when I meditate. Do you also feel that flow/tingling when you put your head against someone else head?



I don't know, I haven't tried!
But I would imagine that's just from the contact/pressure, no?


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## aristotle

chazSingh said:


> or it could be your inner eye chakra activating...so you may feel pressure there...or see light whilst your eyes are closed...



Do these _Chakras_ have any anatomical/neurological basis or they exist only in the imagination of Yoga practitioners? Since these _Chakras_ are claimed to exist in our body/brain, I would like something more substantial than _'You can't see God too, but you can feel God'_ type of argument.
Thanks.


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## kggr001

Canada said:


> I don't know, I haven't tried!
> But I would imagine that's just from the contact/pressure, no?



Not not really contact, what I meant was almost your head against that someone else but you shouldn't not really touch his/her head.


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## kggr001

aristotle said:


> Do these _Chakras_ have any anatomical/neurological basis or they exist only in the imagination of Yoga practitioners? Since these _Chakras_ are claimed to exist in our body/brain, I would like something more substantial than _'You can't see God too, but you can feel God'_ type of argument.
> Thanks.



I think those are the energy points. Not supernatural energy or whatever.


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## aristotle

kggr001 said:


> I think those are the energy points. Not supernatural energy or whatever.



Energy Points must have some anatomical/neurological basis, other than that, its just fable.


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## kggr001

aristotle said:


> Energy Points must have some anatomical neurological basis, other than that, its just fable.



Well I can feel it, I don't know if its energy or its something else but there is definitely something tingling, I searched on google and saw posts of others who also expierience that. 

I don't think its something magical but also it isn't a fable.


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## Ambarsaria

I find the best time to meditate is while one is in deep sleep. That is when your soul has most freedom to develop and your mind is playing "gulli/danda" or a version of a game of sticks. Any time while awake, you try too hard to de-link your mind and soul you should feel pressure, aches and pains all over. The pains are not coming from some "dasam dwar"/tenth gate trying to open in your forehead it is simply your body feeling repulsive at the conflict between your soul and your brain. Best meditation is a peaceful synergistic co-existence between your soul and your mind. This will come about when you lose the duality between living the way you do versus what in your heart of hearts you believe.

Once you get to a place of such balance you will find heaven on earth and all will line up.

All the chakras, etc., will disappear since no part of your body will be more energized versus another part less energized. Hence you will understand the true meaning of the phrase "hocus-pocus", chakras and all that jazz.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS: *In nature there is more balance unless we turd disturb. 

What does grass say to person spraying herbicide to rid weeds off his/her lawn? Please, we are family. I am weed too!


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## aristotle

kggr001 said:


> Well I can feel it, I don't know if its energy or its something else but there is definitely something tingling, I searched on google and saw posts of others who also expierience that.
> 
> I don't think its something magical but also it isn't a fable.



I'm sorry but I would certainly want something more than that. Its fable for me if  you claim it exists in our body and it cant be scientifically explained...


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## aristotle

Ambarsaria said:


> I find the best time to meditate is while one is in deep sleep. That is when your soul has most freedom to develop and your mind is playing "gulli/danda" or a version of a game of sticks. Any time while awake, you try too hard to de-link your mind and soul you should feel pressure, aches and pains all over. The pains are not coming from some "dasam dwar"/tenth gate trying to open in your forehead it is simply your body feeling repulsive at the conflict between your soul and your brain. Best meditation is a peaceful synergistic co-existence between your soul and your mind. This will come about when you lose the duality between living the way you do versus what in your heart of hearts you believe.
> 
> Once you get to a place of such balance you will find heaven on earth and all will line up.
> 
> All the chakras, etc., will disappear since no part of your body will be more energized versus another part less energized. Hence you will understand the true meaning of the phrase "hocus-pocus", chakras and all that jazz.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.
> 
> *PS: *In nature there is more balance unless we turd disturb.
> 
> What does grass say to person spraying herbicide to rid weeds off his/her lawn? Please, we are family. I am weed too!



Relaxing and trying to control your thoughts is a good method of stress-relieving, but I feel these _Chakras_ and all such pseudoscience are just fancy names to sell Yoga.


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## kggr001

aristotle said:


> I'm sorry but I would certainly want something more than that. Its fable for me if  you claim it exists in our body and it cant be scientifically explained...



Aristotle ji there nothing I've to prove here. Like I said I don't know what it is, I don't know if it energy or it is something else. But it is there I feel it.

It's like explaining to a blind person that clouds really exists. He won't believe cause he can't see it.

Not saying that your the blind person here.


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## aristotle

kggr001 said:


> Aristotle ji there nothing I've to prove here. Like I said I don't know what it is, I don't know if it energy or it is something else. But it is there I feel it.
> 
> It's like explaining to a blind person that clouds really exists. He won't believe cause he can't see it.
> 
> Not saying that your the blind person here.



I get your viewpoint...but we are certainly not that 'blind' in the age of EEG, CT, MRI, PET, Power and Colour Doppler etc. Other than that, its just rationalizing something we choose to believe without any basis of its existence whatsoever.


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## kggr001

aristotle said:


> I get your viewpoint...but we are certainly not that 'blind' in the age of EEG, CT, MRI, PET, Power and Colour Doppler etc. Other than that, its just rationalizing something we choose to believe without any basis of its existence whatsoever.



Did they ever try these EEG, CT, MRI, PET tests on someone who also felt the tingling?

I don't expect anything magical from the results, It would be good to know what the result from the tests are and what causes the tingling.


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## aristotle

kggr001 said:


> Did they ever try these EEG, CT, MRI, PET tests on someone who also felt the tingling?



They have, but other than the slowing and integration of brain waves, as is expected during meditation, no such _Chakras_ or other fancy things were found. And mind you, these are peer reviewed studies and not backyard-scientific articles from cheap journals some Yoga teachers usually cite...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24596562
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016787600400162X


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## kggr001

aristotle said:


> They have, but other than the slowing and integration of brain waves, as is expected during meditation, no such _Chakras_ or other fancy things were found. And mind you, these are peer reviewed studies and not backyard-scientific articles from cheap journals some Yoga teachers usually cite...
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24596562
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016787600400162X



Thanks you Aristotle ji 

Right now I can't say if chakra's exist or not all I know is that I do feel something between my eyebrows but then above.


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## chazSingh

aristotle said:


> I'm sorry but I would certainly want something more than that. Its fable for me if  you claim it exists in our body and it cant be scientifically explained...



how do you want that 'scientific explanation' in a journal? on the news?

even if you had both of the above...would that be enough for you? would that prove it?

kggr001 is seeking the truth within himself, where Gurbani says God is...do you want scientific explanation from Guru Ji for this also?

*do you want everything given to you, handed on a plate by someone else as fact...or do you want to go and experience this for yourself? *

kggr001 like many of us, try to describe these internal things using the limitations of language...what He experiences he tries to put in words...

But He knows this is very difficult...as hard as steel...


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## aristotle

chazSingh said:


> how do you want that 'scientific explanation' in a journal? on the news?
> 
> even if you had both of the above...would that be enough for you? would that prove it?
> 
> kggr001 is seeking the truth within himself, where Gurbani says God is...do you want scientific explanation from Guru Ji for this also?
> 
> *do you want everything given to you, handed on a plate by someone else as fact...or do you want to go and experience this for yourself? *
> 
> kggr001 like many of us, try to describe these internal things using the limitations of language...what He experiences he tries to put in words...
> 
> But He knows this is very difficult...as hard as steel...



Our brain is a complex structure of nerve nuclei and branchings of neurons, the activities of which show identifiable physical manifestations which are radiologically/electrographically visible. 

I'm afraid you are twisting the 'seeking God within oneself' teaching to suit your Vedic theory of Chakras , blatantly ignoring modern scientific evidence.


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## Sherdil

kggr001 said:


> Thanks you Aristotle ji
> 
> Right now I can't say if chakra's exist or not all I know is that I do feel something between my eyebrows but then above.



Take a tylenol


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## chazSingh

aristotle said:


> Our brain is a complex structure of nerve nuclei and branchings of neurons, the activities of which show identifiable physical manifestations which are radiologically/electrographically visible.
> 
> I'm afraid you are twisting the 'seeking God within oneself' teaching to suit your Vedic theory of Chakras , blatantly ignoring modern scientific evidence.



good old science...i love science....i got double A* for my science GCSE's 

Modern Day science is still incomplete....
i'm not going to waste my time for someone to give me all the answers and then to find out on my last breath some dude in a white jacket got it all wrong...

my friend. life is short, one doesn't know how long they have on this precious earth... i and many others are going to find out for ourselves...it's so much fun  Chakras and all that stuff may be complete and utter nonsense...but what better way other than to find out for yourself


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## kggr001

Sherdil said:


> Take a tylenol



That doesn't really help, It's the tinteling not really a pain, the tinteling causes me to concentrate on that area and makes the tinteling worse which causes pain. It's like my eyes get strained whenever I start concentrating on the tinteling.


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## chazSingh

kggr001 said:


> That doesn't really help, It's the tinteling not really a pain, the tinteling causes me to concentrate on that area and makes the tinteling worse which causes pain. It's like my eyes get strained whenever I start concentrating on the tinteling.



When this happens try focus all your attention on Mool Manter/Gurmanter or have some kirtan playing in the background to take away from fully focussing on this area or the tingles 

trial and error my friend


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## Harry Haller

chazSingh said:


> When this happens try focus all your attention on Mool Manter/Gurmanter or have some kirtan playing in the background to take away from fully focussing on this area or the tingles
> 
> trial and error my friend



but errr wouldnt that cease to be meditation....

(no response needed, its just a one liner, not a debatable statement....)


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## chazSingh

kggr001 said:


> That doesn't really help, It's the tinteling not really a pain, the tinteling causes me to concentrate on that area and makes the tinteling worse which causes pain. It's like my eyes get strained whenever I start concentrating on the tinteling.



Keep you attention to the shabad as much as you can...no matter what you experience...even if a whole set off the encyclopedia of modern science falls on your head...focus on Guru's Bani.

It's the shabad that is the most important ji...


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## aristotle

chazSingh said:


> Modern Day science is still incomplete....
> i'm not going to waste my time for someone to give me all the answers and then to find out on my last breath some dude in a white jacket got it all wrong...



I must say, despite your education in Science, you have quite a low and erronous opinion of Science. Science has undergone a paradigm shift in the last few decades in the terms of its approach, from theories and postulates to demonstrable scientific models.



> my friend. life is short, one doesn't know how long they have on this precious earth... i and many others are going to find out for ourselves...it's so much fun  Chakras and all that stuff may be complete and utter nonsense...but what better way other than to find out for yourself



Scientific research too may qualify for 'finding out for yourself' in terms of humankind in a quest for finding out answers to many pertinent questions, which are both valid and provable. You choose not to see it in a way I do, is a separate thing.


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## chazSingh

aristotle said:


> Scientific research too may qualify for 'finding out for yourself' in terms of humankind in a quest for finding out answers to many pertinent questions, which are both valid and provable. You choose not to see it in a way I do, is a separate thing.



because i'm not experiencing all that science offers for myself...99.9% of it will be read in journals or viewed in documentaries...so is that enough to remove my doubts and questions 100%?

one fact i know of 100% is that science will still be incomplete when i draw my last breath...therefore my complete faith in science will leave me with yet countless more questions that need answers...what good does that do me?

Guru Ji lightens up a path through which i am told i will know the 'complete truth' from a *personal experience* that i will have *myself...*

*that my friend is going to give me so much more peace when those last moments are coming into play...*and so much more peace whilst living my life...however long that may be...

I hope your firm faith in science gives you everything you seek in your lifetime...we're all looking for the same thing 

God bless ji


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## Harry Haller

the topic is pain in the eyebrows, not science vs meditation gentlemen, let us get back to topic


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## chazSingh

harry haller said:


> the topic is pain in the eyebrows, not science vs meditation gentlemen, let us get back to topic



Where would we be without you my friend Harry Ji


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## Luckysingh

Kggr001...
Hey...hey...hey...
Pain is just a perception my friend !

You have to practice to relax...relax.. and disassociate from this little obstacle.
All the above posts have given good advice.
You need keep focus on ''Waheguru'' at the forefront....
Once you are able to do this,, this annoying little obstacle shall subside.

As the posts above say,... try not to focus or keep attention between eyebrows.

These sensations are mostly about subtle body energies aligning with the physical body.. and they will eventually balance out.


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## Harry Haller

ok, heres my twopence, whilst I absolutely accept that meditation forms a large part of Sikhism for some, personally I would go see a doctor, just in case it does not balance out, or it is something that needs medical attention.



> These sensations are mostly about subtle body energies aligning with the physical body.. and they will eventually balance out.



Luckyji, with the greatest respect, you do not know this for fact, and you know nothing about the medical situation of our young friend......


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## AngloSikhPeace

Are you sure you aren't just crossing your eyes during meditation? That can happen sometimes, it's difficult to tell. It can be uncomfortable.


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## kggr001

AngloSikhPeace said:


> Are you sure you aren't just crossing your eyes during meditation? That can happen sometimes, it's difficult to tell. It can be uncomfortable.



Yes I think that I'm crossing my eyes, when the tingling start, my eyes are moving upwards, however when I open my eyes it's over.

Later this day I will try to meditate without concentrating on the tingling of third eye.


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## prem judge

Meditation with eyes closed and concentrating on controlling your thoughts or focusing on something can activate the *pituitary gland which can cause this pain and may other sensations. Some claim that this the opening of the tricuti (space between the eyebrows).*

*When meditating try not to concentrate, instead just relax and it should give you a more pleasant experience. There are numerous methods of meditation and*
*equally numerous explanations, rules, claims of benefits and beliefs. mho from*
*personal experience is that meditation should be  an easy, effortless and calming experience helping you to relax and recharge your self.  Practised correctly it should assist one to clear ones mind, recharge and refreshen ones*
*self to a point of calmness, peace and clarity.*
*Hope this helps........*


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## kggr001

I tried yesterday to meditate, when I'm very focussed my eyes do get strained automatically.

When I try to not strain my eyes then I don't feel the pain, however I was more busy trying to not strain my eyes then actually meditating yesterday.


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## chazSingh

kggr001 said:


> I tried yesterday to meditate, when I'm very focussed my eyes do get strained automatically.
> 
> When I try to not strain my eyes then I don't feel the pain, however I was more busy trying to not strain my eyes then actually meditating yesterday.



you'll get there...
i remember getting eye strain in my early meditation days...sometimes it just happens 

keep doing your naam simran every day...the eye strain will go and you'll eventually have a very focused level of concentration...you will definately see the fruits of your labor..


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## gur_meet

During my beginning simran days there too was feeling of  heaviness on the forehead. So checked sikh literature as . Subedar Bagel Singh in his book also mentioned this . He  said the cause is body readjustment and it goes away after some time. It too went away in my case. Focus point still remained an resolved issue as internally I felt that the gurbani no where mentions it . In one book Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh ji mentioned about listening to your own voice and the pull inward. The awareness just goes within but not at any physical organ. In a biography of Baba Sunain Singh the biographer mentioned that they too advised keeping focus behind eyes within the head but not at any physical body part.

Following this method the simran shifted from dryness to Mithas( anand ) within no time with feeling of Hazuri ( presence) . Thereafter more and more experiences.

Now when ever I do any worldly work the awareness is near the eyes. But with a mere remembrance it goes within.

From experience sharing with others lateron the conclusion was that the focus point should not be any body part.


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## Sherdil

prem judge said:


> Meditation with eyes closed and concentrating on controlling your thoughts or focusing on something can activate the *pituitary gland which can cause this pain and may other sensations. Some claim that this the opening of the tricuti (space between the eyebrows).*



Prem ji, 

Do you have any reputable literature to back this up? From my understanding, the pituitary gland is already active. It's role is to secrete hormones, regulated by the Hypothalamus. No amount of conscious effort can activate it or deactivate it. An over active pituitary is actually a cause for concern. It could indicate an adenoma associated with bi-temporal blindness. 

I don't understand why you guys criticize science, but then feel the need to include false scientific arguments to back up your claims. Just stick to chakras and third eyes.


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## chazSingh

Sherdil said:


> Prem ji,
> 
> Do you have any reputable literature to back this up? From my understanding, the pituitary gland is already active. It's role is to secrete hormones, regulated by the Hypothalamus. No amount of conscious effort can activate it or deactivate it. An over active pituitary is actually a cause for concern. It could indicate an adenoma associated with bi-temporal blindness.
> 
> I don't understand why you guys criticize science, but then feel the need to include false scientific arguments to back up your claims. Just stick to chakras and third eyes.



you guys?

only one person has mentioned 

whether the theory is true or false, mentioning of elements of the physcial body has nothing to do with science...

the body was Constructed by God Alone...so a God seeking person can speak of physical things if He/She so deems necessary.

Science/Physicality/God are not independant...they work hand in hand...only science is limited in what it can and will ever bring to light..

Sorry Harry Ji...we'll get back to the subject now


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## chazSingh

A great read for anyone interested...

*Shabd Guru Surt Dhun Chela
*

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/books/English_Books/Shabad.Guru.Surat.Dhan.Chela.by.Giani.Sant.Singh.Maskeen.%28GurmatVeechar.com%29.pdf


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## kggr001

chazSingh said:


> A great read for anyone interested...
> 
> *Shabd Guru Surt Dhun Chela
> *
> 
> http://www.gurmatveechar.com/books/English_Books/Shabad.Guru.Surat.Dhan.Chela.by.Giani.Sant.Singh.Maskeen.%28GurmatVeechar.com%29.pdf



Thanks alot.


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## Sherdil

chazSingh said:


> you guys?
> 
> only one person has mentioned
> 
> whether the theory is true or false, mentioning of elements of the physcial body has nothing to do with science...


What elements are you talking about? The physical body is made of Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Iron, Copper, Magnesium, Potassium, Calcium, Sulfur, Sodium, and a plethora of others. These are all firmly within the realm of science.



			
				chazSingh said:
			
		

> the body was Constructed by God Alone...so a God seeking person can speak of physical things if He/She so deems necessary.


Can a God seeking person be seeking for God in the wrong place?



			
				chazSingh said:
			
		

> Science/Physicality/God are not independant...they work hand in hand...only science is limited in what it can and will ever bring to light..


But you guys are interpreting science wrong to suit your views. When real science is presented before you, you guys brazenly dismiss it. 



			
				chazSingh said:
			
		

> Sorry Harry Ji...we'll get back to the subject now



Awww....c'mon. Don't hide behind Harry ji. OP has already figured out his problem. He was just crossing his eyes too much. You guys thought his chakra was opening. lol lol lol lol 

Honestly, I think you are taking advantage of Harry ji's kindness. spnadmin ji wouldn't have tolerated it. I don't think it is a coincidence that all of you have come out of the woodwork since she passed away.


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## chazSingh

Sherdil said:


> Can a God seeking person be seeking for God in the wrong place


 
We are seeking God where Sikhi tells us to seek God...last time i checked this is a Sikh Philosphy forum isn;t it?




> But you guys are interpreting science wrong to suit your views. When real science is presented before you, you guys brazenly dismiss it.


 
i love science...but as of yet it hasn't answered the questions i long to have answers for...and it will not give me personal experience of the questions i ask

i'm all for science for all other things 



> Awww....c'mon. Don't hide behind Harry ji. OP has already figured out his problem. He was just crossing his eyes too much. You guys thought his chakra was opening. lol lol lol lol
> 
> Honestly, I think you are taking advantage of Harry ji's kindness. spnadmin ji wouldn't have tolerated it. I don't think it is a coincidence that all of you have come out of the woodwork since she passed away


 
i've been here for many years 

this is a sikh philosphy forum...so instead of just mocking other members who are trying to ascertain how to seek god within...please give your opinions on how you think this should be done...

and if you think it cannot be done by the methods we describe and we are looking in the wrong location...please come out with Gurbani quotes as to where we can look instead...

this is a sikh philosophy forum  so be helpful in the pursuit of God Realisation and Self realisation...


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## kggr001

Then the same would apply for god, since science isn't able to prove whatever god exists or not. 
So according to some here we shouldn't also believe that there is a god right?


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## aristotle

Sherdil said:


> But you guys are interpreting science wrong to suit your views. When real science is presented before you, you guys brazenly dismiss it.



Not everyone can appreciate the beauty of Science Sherdil Ji. It is both an intellectual and personal quest to see the beauty of nature and try to find out valid answers for natural occurences and phenomena.


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## aristotle

kggr001 said:


> Then the same would apply for god, since science isn't able to prove whatever god exists or not.
> So according to some here we shouldn't also believe that there is a god right?



Science is just a cannon of evergrowing knowledge attained by humankind. And atleast a few, if not many scientists are devoutly religious. Science has never confirmed or rejected God, but it has surely rejected Creationism, Black magic, Supernatural theory of disease etc, and that too with valid proofs....


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## kggr001

aristotle said:


> Science is just a cannon of evergrowing knowledge attained by humankind. And atleast a few, if not many scientists are devoutly religious. Science has never confirmed or rejected God, but it has surely rejected Creationism, Black magic, Supernatural theory of disease etc, and that too with valid proofs....



But wouldn't god be some kind of supernatural force? Can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot move it? Do you see the paradox here? Yet many religions including Sikhism believe that god is omnipotent.

I also do love science but, I don't believe science knows all the answers some answers remain unknown.


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## aristotle

kggr001 said:


> But wouldn't god be some kind of supernatural force? Can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot move it?



Do all religions even agree on the definition of God? I think Sikhi believes God to be a Natural force rather than something 'Super'natural


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## chazSingh

aristotle said:


> Not everyone can appreciate the beauty of Science Sherdil Ji. It is both an intellectual and personal quest to see the beauty of nature and try to find out valid answers for natural occurences and phenomena.


 
i look at nature and see the working of Waheguru Ji...so nothing is supernatural...all is God...external and internal...Gurbani already states this and no one is dissagreeing...


i see science trying to learn as much as it can about what we humans can see, hear, touch, taste and smell...basically anything we can measure...of the creation of Waheguru Ji

this is all great...and its all human nature to ask questions and seek answers

Guru Ji so clearly says...
you fools, you look for God on the outside...seek him within yourself...
God reveals Himself within yourself..
know thyself and you will know God.

So if members want to speak of science...and mock other members who are trying to seek within...

please actually come up with some scientific fact that states God can not be found within...or something that is beneficial for the members of this forum and the members that are participating on this thread...

otherwise the thread just becomes school playground stuff, where the kid with the topnot gets laughed at because he believes in a God and holds that thought deep within his being


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## aristotle

kggr001 said:


> I also do love science but, I don't believe science knows all the answers some answers remain unknown.



The moment it knows 'all' the answers, all scientific research will end, and that wont ever happen. But does that mean we stop looking for answers? Wont that be outright foolishness?

Science doesnt have all the answers, but it is the same with Religion. Can Religion tell me the structure of gluon, or the phylogeny of Homo sapiens, or the treatment of a ruptured appendix? 

Knowledge is knowledge, whatever you name it.


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## aristotle

chazSingh said:


> But this is a sikhphilosphy forum...and Guru Ji so clearly says...
> you fools, you look for God on the outside...seek him within yourself...
> God reveals Himself within yourself..
> know thyself and you will know God.



I guess Guruji is not discouraging us to learn. He is telling us to shun the outside of 'scriptures, rituals, Dehdharis, False Gods' and realise the God which resides 'inside'. How exactly that translates to solely meditation and concentrating between the eyes is a thing I am yet to understand. 

Surely, Guru Granth Sahib does not explain techniques of meditation, they have to learnt from the 'outside' of books, Yoga teachers, friends etc.


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## kggr001

aristotle said:


> Do all religions even agree on the definition of God? I think Sikhi believes God to be a Natural force rather than something 'Super'natural



If he is a force then we should be able to measure it but we can't, so he doesn't exist for now, so Guru's were talking about an Imaginary friend in Sri GGS ji right? 

Also it makes no sense, according to Sikhism and other religions god is omnipotent and yet he can't make a stone so heavy that He cannot move it. So Guru's where lying about god being omnipotent right?

There are things we humans can't comprehend. I believe there is an limit to human intellect. We simply cannot comprehend everything. like we can't comprehend god.

God has no logic he created logic for us. We are limited he is not.


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## chazSingh

aristotle said:


> The moment it knows 'all' the answers, all scientific research will end, and that wont ever happen. But does that mean we stop looking for answers? Wont that be outright foolishness?
> 
> Science doesnt have all the answers, but it is the same with Religion. Can Religion tell me the structure of gluon, or the phylogeny of Homo sapiens, or the treatment of a ruptured appendix?
> 
> Knowledge is knowledge, whatever you name it.


 
thats all great ji...
i agree with you...

but again this is a Sikh Philosphy forum - and we are discussin sikh philosophy...of how We seek God within...and the guidance of Guru Ji to seek within...

there are many things in Gurbani that are not in modern science...so unless we are all individually going to design a sceince experiement to prove them in a lab environment...or rely on scientists to do it for us...

...i think many (sikhs) will follow Guru Ji's guidance and do their own personal experiment...

of course this is all subjective...and the world will never believe what the Sikh stumbles across on his journey...


which tells you one thing, and one thing only...Seeking God is not about you proving the existance of God to anyone...it is about getting off ones backside and seeking that experience yourself...and then inspiring people to do the same...

sikh philosophy...lets stick to that...kggr00 is making the endevour to seek god within using Simran and meditation...he is looking within...

do you know of any good ways that He and others can do this...what does gurbani say?

God Bless


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## aristotle

kggr001 said:


> If he is a force then we should be able to measure it but we can't, so he doesn't exist for now, so Guru's were talking about an Imaginary friend in Sri GGS ji right?



Do you realise 'He', 'Force', 'God' are just attributes we humans assign to the Waheguru, Sikhi belives the attributeless Waheguru cannot be reduced to attributes. In fact, Waheguru is the 'whole', the start and end of all creation. 

Building an unnecessary wall between Sikhi and Science would either belittle Science or Sikhi, which would be unfortunate.


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## chazSingh

aristotle said:


> I guess Guruji is not discouraging us to learn. He is telling us to shun the outside of 'scriptures, rituals, Dehdharis, False Gods' and realise the God which resides 'inside'. How exactly that translates to solely meditation and concentrating between the eyes is a thing I am yet to understand.
> 
> Surely, Guru Granth Sahib does not explain techniques of meditation, they have to learnt from the 'outside' of books, Yoga teachers, friends etc.


 
no one is building walls between science and religion 


i added a link to a book which gives details and quotes from gurbani of this inner seeking...

please read it...

i do not know if it explains the whole truth...but there is only one way to find out..

it would be good to know your thoughts on the book..

Thank you ji.


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## kggr001

aristotle said:


> Do you realise 'He', 'Force', 'God' are just attributes we humans assign to the Waheguru, Sikhi belives the attributeless Waheguru cannot be reduced to attributes. In fact, Waheguru is the 'whole', the start and end of all creation.
> 
> Building an unnecessary wall between Sikhi and Science would either belittle Science or Sikhi, which would be unfortunate.



According to Sikhism he is the cause of everything without him nothing would even move everything goes according to his will and we have to understand and accept the Hukam. 

There are things that science never will be able to proof god is one of them.


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## aristotle

kggr001 said:


> There are things that science never will be able to proof god is one of them.



Well, if God were knowable, he wouldn't be God, no? Science is nothing but a compilation of what we know about things that are knowable.

But if someone were to tell me they could 'know' God by closing eyes for a few minutes and focussing on something, that would be absurd too. The bottomline is, meditation may heal psychological disorders, free your mind, relieve stress....but it does not translate to 'searching God within ourselves'.

*PS*- No Science vs Meditation debates please....if they continue, you will have to do without my participation....


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## kggr001

I do agree there, god is everwhere inside meditation also outside it. Meditation is just to make one understand himself beter. nothing supernatural.


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## Sherdil

chazSingh said:


> this is a sikh philosphy forum...so instead of just mocking other members who are trying to ascertain how to seek god within...please give your opinions on how you think this should be done...
> 
> and if you think it cannot be done by the methods we describe and we are looking in the wrong location...please come out with Gurbani quotes as to where we can look instead...
> 
> this is a sikh philosophy forum  so be helpful in the pursuit of God Realisation and Self realisation...



Actions my friend. We have been through this before ( Here: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/42331-what-is-naam.html )
On that thread, you posted this wonderful Shabadh (appears on page 351 of GGS)

ਆਸਾ             ਮਹਲਾ             ੧             ॥
आसा             महला १ ॥
Āsā             mėhlā 1. 
Aasaa,             First Mehl: 
ਕਰਮ             ਕਰਤੂਤਿ             ਬੇਲਿ             ਬਿਸਥਾਰੀ             ਰਾਮ             ਨਾਮੁ             ਫਲੁ             ਹੂਆ             ॥
करम             करतूति बेलि बिसथारी राम             नामु फलु हूआ ॥
Karam             karṯūṯ bel bisthārī rām nām fal hū▫ā. 
The             vine of good actions and character has spread out, and it bears             the fruit of the Lord's Name. 
ਤਿਸੁ             ਰੂਪੁ             ਨ             ਰੇਖ             ਅਨਾਹਦੁ             ਵਾਜੈ             ਸਬਦੁ             ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ             ਕੀਆ             ॥੧॥

तिसु             रूपु न रेख अनाहदु वाजै सबदु             निरंजनि कीआ ॥१॥
Ŧis             rūp na rekẖ anāhaḏ vājai sabaḏ niranjan kī▫ā. ||1|| 
The             Name has no form or outline; it vibrates with the unstruck Sound             Current; through the Word of the Shabad, the Immaculate Lord is             revealed. ||1|| 
ਕਰੇ             ਵਖਿਆਣੁ             ਜਾਣੈ             ਜੇ             ਕੋਈ             ॥
करे             वखिआणु जाणै जे कोई ॥
Kare             vakẖi▫āṇ jāṇai je ko▫ī. 
One             can speak on this only when he knows it. 
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ             ਪੀਵੈ             ਸੋਈ             ॥੧॥             ਰਹਾਉ             ॥
अम्रितु             पीवै सोई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Amriṯ             pīvai so▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
He             alone drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||1||Pause|| 
ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ             ਪੀਆ             ਸੇ             ਮਸਤ             ਭਏ             ਹੈ             ਤੂਟੇ             ਬੰਧਨ             ਫਾਹੇ             ॥

जिन्ह             पीआ से मसत भए है तूटे बंधन             फाहे ॥
Jinĥ             pī▫ā se masaṯ bẖa▫e hai ṯūte banḏẖan fāhe. 
Those             who drink it in are enraptured; their bonds and shackles are cut             away. 
ਜੋਤੀ             ਜੋਤਿ             ਸਮਾਣੀ             ਭੀਤਰਿ             ਤਾ             ਛੋਡੇ             ਮਾਇਆ             ਕੇ             ਲਾਹੇ             ॥੨॥
जोती             जोति समाणी भीतरि ता छोडे             माइआ के लाहे ॥२॥
Joṯī             joṯ samāṇī bẖīṯar ṯā cẖẖode mā▫i▫ā ke             lāhe. ||2|| 
When             one's light blends into the Divine Light, then the desire for Maya             is ended. ||2|| 
ਸਰਬ             ਜੋਤਿ             ਰੂਪੁ             ਤੇਰਾ             ਦੇਖਿਆ             ਸਗਲ             ਭਵਨ             ਤੇਰੀ             ਮਾਇਆ             ॥
सरब             जोति रूपु तेरा देखिआ सगल             भवन तेरी माइआ ॥
Sarab             joṯ rūp ṯerā ḏekẖi▫ā sagal bẖavan ṯerī mā▫i▫ā. 
Among             all lights, I behold Your Form; all the worlds are Your Maya. 
ਰਾਰੈ             ਰੂਪਿ             ਨਿਰਾਲਮੁ             ਬੈਠਾ             ਨਦਰਿ             ਕਰੇ             ਵਿਚਿ             ਛਾਇਆ             ॥੩॥
रारै             रूपि निरालमु बैठा नदरि करे             विचि छाइआ ॥३॥
Rārai             rūp nirālam baiṯẖā naḏar kare vicẖ cẖẖā▫i▫ā.             ||3|| 
Among             the tumults and forms, He sits in serene detachment; He bestows             His Glance of Grace upon those who are engrossed in the illusion.             ||3|| 
ਬੀਣਾ             ਸਬਦੁ             ਵਜਾਵੈ             ਜੋਗੀ             ਦਰਸਨਿ             ਰੂਪਿ             ਅਪਾਰਾ             ॥
बीणा             सबदु वजावै जोगी दरसनि रूपि             अपारा ॥
Bīṇā             sabaḏ vajāvai jogī ḏarsan rūp apārā. 
The             Yogi who plays on the instrument of the Shabad gains the Blessed             Vision of the Infinitely Beautiful Lord. 
ਸਬਦਿ             ਅਨਾਹਦਿ             ਸੋ             ਸਹੁ             ਰਾਤਾ             ਨਾਨਕੁ             ਕਹੈ             ਵਿਚਾਰਾ             ॥੪॥੮॥
सबदि             अनाहदि सो सहु राता नानकु             कहै विचारा ॥४॥८॥
Sabaḏ             anāhaḏ so saho rāṯā Nānak kahai vicẖārā. ||4||8|| 
He,             the Lord, is immersed in the Unstruck Shabad of the Word, says             Nanak, the humble and meek. ||4||8|| 

Moreover, Gurbani says that by the Hukam the True Lord comes to abide in the mind. You cannot find Him on your own, no matter how hard you look. This isn't a game of hide and seek. By our actions, we are given the Hukam.


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## arshdeep88

I just want to ask the thread starter and other people here that what is your objective of meditation and what do you really do when you do meditate ?
do you just become thoughtless and try focusing on the present or something like contemplating the Guru's Shabad and then kind of self analyze yourself where you do stand in accordance with the Guru's Shabad and the TRUTH?
or maybe something else ?

Thank you


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## kggr001

arshdeep88 said:


> I just want to ask the thread starter and other people here that what is your objective of meditation and what do you really do when you do meditate ?
> do you just become thoughtless and try focusing on the present or something like contemplating the Guru's Shabad and then kind of self analyze yourself where you do stand in accordance with the Guru's Shabad and the TRUTH?
> or maybe something else ?
> 
> Thank you



When I meditate I do become thoughtless I do that by concentrating on a word or by concentrating on my breathing.  When I'm done meditating my mind is free from all the eartly thing, which gives me beter insight of myself. It feels like that I'm the third person(not literally) who is viewing the world. It's like a moment that I feel that I'm my true self. It's like an moment when I'm thinking beyond the world and it's affairs. 

arshdeep88 ji , it's very hard to explain how I feel that moment. It's like an experience from which you learn about your true self.

If someone would ask me if you get a beter person by just meditating, then I don't think so, it sure does help, however it's your deeds that will make you a beter person. Meditation clears your mind and makes you super conscious you are well aware of the illusion.


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## chazSingh

aristotle said:


> Well, if God were knowable, he wouldn't be God, no? Science is nothing but a compilation of what we know about things that are knowable.
> 
> But if someone were to tell me they could 'know' God by closing eyes for a few minutes and focussing on something, that would be absurd too. The bottomline is, meditation may heal psychological disorders, free your mind, relieve stress....but it does not translate to 'searching God within ourselves'.
> 
> *PS*- No Science vs Meditation debates please....if they continue, you will have to do without my participation....



Aristotle ji

please take the time to read the book I posted earlier...it explains a lot and gives gurbani examples to back those explanations...

rather than just reducing these efforts to just 'closing eyes' and concentrating' on something...at least try to understand the reasoning and underlying principle...even just for your own research...

I think it will help our discussions my good friend

modern science suggests the whole universe is vibrating...gurbani says the shabad is resonating through everything...the shabad creates...sustains and destroys...the shabad is in us also...the great gurus who attuned to this primal sounds wrote these word vibrations sound of god in sri guru granth. Guru ji says through deep contemplation we can come to know this primal sound...and through which experience god...

jesus said...in the beginning was the word...the word/vibration/sound was with god...the word was god..

guru ji is inspiring us to look within to regain awarsness of this anhad naad (unstruck sound current)...

This is beyond just closing eyes and concentrating on something. That which we contemplate on (guru granth) is not just something..it is said to be a manifestation of the primal sound and it i aparrently can assist us to become aware of the sound current within...

this maybe nuts...might be crazy...but I like the fact gurbani says we can explore this ourselves. Guess I and others will find out one day if its hocus pocus or true   so far through my own experience, my doubts about guru ji are vanishing day by day...but this is subjective...

Read it if you get a chance...even if you dont agree with it I think you will find it intersting for your research

god bless ji


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## Ishna

Is it just me, or have we exhausted all discussion with regard to the pain between the eyebrows during meditation topic?


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## kggr001

Yesterday, I was again more busy trying to NOT strain my eyes then actually meditating.

I think I got used to straining my eyes in the past during meditation, that it now sometimes goes automatically.


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## chazSingh

kggr001 said:


> Yesterday, I was again more busy trying to NOT strain my eyes then actually meditating.
> 
> I think I got used to straining my eyes in the past during meditation, that it now sometimes goes automatically.



The actual straining of the eyes will start to reduce as you continue with your Simran...

When someone first starts to lift weights at the Gym, muscles are painfully soar for several days after...

this soreness though gets less as the muscles get used to the weight you are lifting


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## kggr001

chazSingh said:


> The actual straining of the eyes will start to reduce as you continue with your Simran...
> 
> When someone first starts to lift weights at the Gym, muscles are painfully soar for several days after...
> 
> this soreness though gets less as the muscles get used to the weight you are lifting



Thanks, I think that I'm a little impatient


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## chazSingh

Ishna said:


> Is it just me, or have we exhausted all discussion with regard to the pain between the eyebrows during meditation topic?



my wife is able to hold one eye still, whilst moving around the other...she freaks out my nephews!

i gave myself a headache whilst trying to do the same...a big foool i am (in my wifes own words)


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