# Sikhism Pledge / ਸਿੱਖੀ ਦੀ ਕਸਮ



## Ambarsaria (Oct 18, 2012)

I want spner’s opinion on this topic.  The rationale framework is as follows”

*WHY:*  We as human beings and Sikhs view each other differently.  Even within Sikhs there are divisions of so called hardliners, non-practicing, sehajdhari, and many other varieties.  History tells us that when a Sikh, no matter how complete or incomplete one is, faces adversity a simple wearing of a Kara or any other Kakkar can cause one to be facing adversity.  No one is going to check a Sikh’s certificate of compliance with Sikh Reht Maryada.  

  I felt that there are some fundamental tenets that unite us as a Sikh community and that instead of dividing on differences we need to be one in common.

*APPROACH:  *I have taken Sikh Reht Maryada’s Definition of a Sikh and tried to condense it in the above.  Once one believes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the areas of “one creator” are covered.  Once you believe in Amrit Pahul of Guru Gobind Singh ji the belief in other religions goes by the wayside.



> *Sikhism Pledge*
> ​ *(draft)*
> 
> I believe in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the teachings of ten Gurus and the amrit of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji.  Without regard to completeness of my Sikh persona, I will without any fear for loss of life, limb or liberty, defend my rights and of all other Sikh brothers and sisters, whether more or less complete Sikhs than me.​





> *ਸਿੱਖੀ ਦੀ ਕਸਮ
> *​ *(KrVw)
> *​ *ਮੈਂ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ, ਦਸ ਗੁਰੂਆਂ ਦੀ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਅਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੇਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਤਿ ਵਿੱਚ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਰੱਖਦਾ ਹਾਂ ||  ਮੇਰੀ ਸਿੱਖੀ ਸ਼ਖਸੀਅਤ ਵਿੱਚ ਕਮੀਆਂ ਹੋਨ ਦੇ ਬਾਵਯੂਦ, ਮੈਂ ਜਿੰਦਗੀ, ਅੰਗ ਜਾਂ ਅਜਾਦੀ ਦੀ ਪ੍ਰਵਾਹ ਕੀਤੇ ਬਿਣਾ ਆਪਨੇ ਅਤੇ ਹੇਰ ਸਾਰੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਭਰਾਵਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਭੈਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਅਧਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਰਖਵਾਲੀ ਕਰਾਂਗਾ, ਭਾਵੇਂ ਉਹ ਮੇਰੇ ਤੋਂ ਜਿਆਦਾ ਜਾਂ ਘੱਟ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਹੋਣ||*​


I am posting a poll too to check the pulse of our thoughts and possible direction.

*Question for Poll:*  What are your thoughts on Sikhism Pledge?



I      believe it is worthwhile to have one and I like it as worded.
I      believe it is worthwhile to have one, but we need to revise wording and I      have posted suggestions.
I do      not believe we should have one, the status-quo is fine.
Other and I have posted my comments or suggestions.
    I would like your thoughts, comments and suggestions.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:*  Excerpt from Sikh Rehat Maryada (SRM)



> Definition of Sikh
> 
> •      One Immortal Being
> •      Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Dev to Guru Gobind Singh
> ...


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 18, 2012)

It would be great if you explained the purpose of taking this pledge.


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 18, 2012)

Bhagat Singh ji thanks for your post.





BhagatSingh said:


> It would be great if you explained the purpose of taking this pledge.


_I thought the "Why" in the post served that purpose.

Essentially I want Sikhs to recognize a fraternity which is much deeper through various levels of Guru ji's wisdom that we all have.  I have in my life seen much antagonism between the various factions within Sikhism.  My desire and a wish is that when push comes to shove, we Sikhs are all of our Guru jis to a degree small or large.  I want us all to recognize this as a core that sustains Sikh body and community and be cognizance of the same.  My dream and wish being that some smart people could take it on for more flourishing of Sikhism and be proud to be part of the most wondrous legacy of our Gur ji past and SGGS at present.

This is Sikhi centric to recognize our roots, knowing key litmus test and fraternity.  I did not want to mush it up by trying to boil the ocean and make it inter-religious endeavor for all of humanity.  Even though it is not contra any other community and well within internationally recognized rights enshrined for exercising the freedom of religion around the world bar some autocratic countries.

_So it is a desire that I felt and hence the suggestion starting this thread.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 19, 2012)

Ambarsariaji

surely the pledge should be

*Sikhism Pledge*
​ *(draft)*

I  believe in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the teachings of ten Gurus and the  amrit of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji.  Without regard to completeness of  my Sikh persona, I will without any fear for loss of life, limb or  liberty, defend my rights and of all other  brothers and sisters regardless of religion and belief. By the grace of Creator give me the strength and determination to uphold my beliefs, and to serve Creation.

my opnion only


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## Ishna (Oct 19, 2012)

Ambarsaria ji

I like where you're going from this.  From the place I'm at now I can't give you any feedback but will be watching this space with much interest. :interestedkudi:


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 19, 2012)

The draft presented by Harry Hallar ji is wonderfully worded one.
I have few points for considerations.

..What GuRu Gobind Singh ji did to Create Khalsaa is to be known as "KHANDE Ki PAHUL"
If we refer this as Amrit then this AMRIT is not for believing,By saying so one is definitely avoiding the acceptance of this Amrit which is Mandatory for Khalsaa.

It is very surprising to note that we all like to be known as Sikhs without being Khalsaa.
So there is need for introsepection what should be the real draft for such Sikhs.

My personal opinion is that SIKH can not be defined the way it has been done.
Certainly Khalsaa can be defined the way draft is presented.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ishna (Oct 20, 2012)

Prakash veer ji beat me to it, essentially.

What does "I believe in ... and the amrit of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji" actually imply?  What does it mean?  How can you 'believe' in an initiation ceremony?

I think this part needs to be more clearly defined to eliminate confusion about Sikh/Khalsa.  In my humble opinion.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 20, 2012)

Ishna said:


> Prakash veer ji beat me to it, essentially.
> 
> What does "I believe in ... and the amrit of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji" actually imply? What does it mean? How can you 'believe' in an initiation ceremony?
> 
> I think this part needs to be more clearly defined to eliminate confusion about Sikh/Khalsa. In my humble opinion.


 
I have clarified a point in my post that what is given to a Sikh to become Khalsaa is "KHANDE KI PAHUL".......This is being promoted as Amrit.(I cant explain this why?)

The meaning of PAHUL is very important to understand.The Word PAHUL means an AGENT which increases ones POTENTIAL of POWER to unlimited extent.That is why this needs to be consumed physically so that one acquires  unlimited power to fight in the war field.
This is very amazing effect of "KHANDE KI PAHUL" which makes Khalsa 
always victorious in all  odd situations.
You can verify a fact from the history that all the wars GuRu Gobind Singh ji won even being small in numbers against large numbers in opposite 
forces.
So my understanding is that every Khalsaa is a SIKH but every Sikh is not necesarily be Khalsaa. But it can be observed that there is IMPOSITION  of Khalsaa on Sikhs .This aspect is very difficult to accept for certain 
obvious reasons you should analyse yourself  

Now I think you can appreciate what is I believe or accept to be Khalsaa  

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## harmanpreet singh (Oct 20, 2012)

Ishna said:


> Prakash veer ji beat me to it, essentially.
> 
> What does "I believe in ... and the amrit of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji" actually imply? What does it mean? How can you 'believe' in an initiation ceremony?
> 
> I think this part needs to be more clearly defined to eliminate confusion about Sikh/Khalsa. In my humble opinion.


 

Sat Sri Akaal Ishna ji ,

I feel " believe in" here means 

1) Sikhs who  are Khalsa/Amritdhari .
2) Sikhs who aspires to join Khalsa ,but do not consider themselves fit yet .


just my views  ....


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 20, 2012)

Ishna ji,
I think it means that you believe the initiation is an integral part of Sikhism, and you have it set  as a goal for yourself to achieve.

Lol I am going to ask you again, what's up with your adherent? Before you had "existential... something there, now "borderline atheism". Anways, I pray that everything is alright. 

Ambarsaria ji,
Ok I see the motivation. I think that's admirable but a few things must be understood first. I had some time on my hands so I gave this a lot of serious thought and here's what I have to say.
1. The way two neighbouring factions make peace is to celebrate both their unity AND difference. And not just in the political sphere but the individuals start to do this in their mind. They stop looking for homogeneity, that is, they stop wanting the others to believe in the same things they do. Have you done this in your mind? Have you celebrated the fact that (for instance) Namdharis, and some minor groups have living gurus? 

Unless you the leader of this pledge have celebrated both the similarity and difference, there is no chance of this becoming a reality. It must stem from truth. 


Now  having discussed the mindset, let's go into the pledge itself:
2. Now to include all the factions into your pledge you might need to expand it. *Bear in mind this is not a suggestion.*
_I believe in some portion of the bani of at least 1 of the authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji._
I have taken out the limit to 10 gurus, this brings in the above mentioned group you left out. It brings in those groups that were alienated, Namdharis and the minor: Nanak Panthis, Kabir panthis, Ravidasia.

Now the authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are all very much in agreement. If one has taken Kabir to be their guru, many other gurus and bhagats will match, it's just that that person has devoted their being to only one. Does that make sense? So yes if they read the others, they would say "Yes I agree with this" so they technically believe in more than 1 but they haven't studied, or learned about them for whatever reason.

 Now I also removed the belief in Amrit initiation because many groups just don't believe in that. I am not 100% sure but Namdharis, some Udasi and sevapanthi groups don't. Kabir Panthi, some Nanak Panthi and Ravidasia don't.

I also removed any pledge to defend another Sikh, leaving fighting for those who are able. Those disabled are included in the pedge this way. This is something groups tend to do anyway. You see one of your own getting hurt, the factor in taking action is if you are brave and are able to defend them, not whether you took a pledge. By fighting I mean all forms, not just hand to hand, gun to gun, but also in the political, economic field ie. discrimination, racism, political struggle. 

Also we don't want to encourage intellectuals from siding with each other  only because they are Sikhs. This is dangerous to scholarly research.

I wouldn't even add anything about a God so those who are undisclosed,  borderline atheist and exploring Sikhi are included. They are still  connected to Sikhi by a thread however thin. Let's keep this intact so  they can move in and out freely. If they leave with a sense of  rejection, they may not come back. For example, due to the fact, the bani is theistic in nature, that attributes both impersonal and personal characteristics to God, those people who cherry-pick can do so. Cherrypicking can be healthy if you cherrypick good berries.

And we want everyone to be open-minded and be able to celebrate differences along with celebrating the unity I outlined above. So if I may add something:
_I believe in acceptance of other men, women and their and my own life situation, as it is without tempering with it mentally. I will have only have love for them in my heart. If I fail at this I will not give up and continue to cultivate love until my pledge becomes a reality._

And third, we don't want random beliefs creeping into Sikhism, as if they were Sikhism. But on the other hand we want to stay open I would add: 
 _I will honestly be an open space for opposing viewpoints until I find sufficient__ evidence and testimony from my own personal experience__ to give more credence to a belief__._
 A hidden # 4 is I will not dismiss beliefs without good reason.
 

3. Now I said that is not a suggestion because this isn't a pledge to being a Sikh anymore. It is now something else, a completely different way to approach things. This person does not belong to any faction and simultaneously is open to all of them. The word faction does not exist in his/her mind. Neither does the word God, through love he knows God, he does not need to label it as such. He may choose to live as an atheist or believe in any number or type of God(s). Because he loves everything, he is not attached to anything. He is not looking for particular experiences, he loves or pledges to love this situation whether it is pleasant or not. He is a scientific, rational individual but is open to testimony of personal experience and is open to non-rational and non-scientific (not the same as irrational) beliefs that may guide him better. He is open to other types of mind structures  such as those rooted in magic, myth, rational or other.

One might say, you are wrong, there is nothing new here, this *is* a pledge for Sikhism. "The word faction does not exist in his/her mind" no koi hindu no koi musalman. "Through love he knows God" jin prem kio tin he prabh payo. The third one is the different mind structures found in Guru Granth Sahib. To them I would say read the second sentence of this paragraph closely. My attempt to tackle the pledge and bring it in consonance with OP's stated motivation and inspiration for writing the pledge, has lead me to expand it to something else entirely. It also has a personal bias. Being of a closed-minded and exclusive nature I tend to value open-mindedness and inclusiveness. Being a bit anxious and even a bit paranoid at times, I tend to value love of all people, and situations. And having studied all sorts of belief systems, I value even one individual who has devoted his life going deeper and deeper into just 1 thing, 1 individual whom they found more fascinating than anything else. If you can take out that bias and somehow put Sikhism back in, whilst retaining inclusiveness and openness, at the same times then I think you will end up with a really awesome pledge! Something one could cherish for many years.

Satsriakal


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 20, 2012)

harmanpreet singh said:


> Sat Sri Akaal Ishna ji ,
> 
> I feel " believe in" here means
> 
> ...


 
For Khalsa/Amritdhari where is the need to believe in for them?

I think that the draft in who is Sikh should state clearly that any person preparing himself to become Khalsa/Amritdhari instead believe in. This is only a personal suggestion.

Prakash.S.Bagga
.


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## Luckysingh (Oct 20, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ambarsaria ji,
> Ok I see the motivation. I think that's admirable but a few things must be understood first. I had some time on my hands so I gave this a lot of serious thought and here's what I have to say.
> 1. The way two neighbouring factions make peace is to celebrate both their unity AND difference. And not just in the political sphere but the individuals start to do this in their mind. They stop looking for homogeneity, that is, they stop wanting the others to believe in the same things they do. Have you done this in your mind? Have you celebrated the fact that (for instance) Namdharis, and some minor groups have living gurus?
> 
> ...


 
Some very good points here. 
In all fairness a pledge comes across as a pretty good idea in a nearly ideal world.
The reality is that we are not anywhere near this ideal and to accept all the factions on equal par is not that easy.
As you mention, most of these like ravidasiss and naamdharis have gone seperate ways because of being sidelined by so called mainstream sikhs.

Then we have these issues whereby some of these believe in living gurus.
These kind of samparnas and jathas are the very ones that the mainstream sikhs blame for damaging sikhism, how could we truly pledge or oath that we would react with them on equal terms ?

The only group or faction that is still scattered is the monai or that see themselves as sehajdhari. If the hard core amrithdharis of which there are very many for example the ones that don't accept monai or sehajdhari doing kirtan, doing seva, involved in Gurdwara committee and co-ordination etc... . If  these  same amritdharies pursue tighter controls as to exclude the sehajdharies from any important positions in sikh infastructure, then it won't be long before sehajdhaires and monai seperate and form their own groups and gurdwaras whereby they do all the co-ordinating and maintenance of themselves.

The way things are going, it seems we are closer to more branches like this occuring of exclusion rather than accepting all groups and factions and giving them inclusion.

This is how I feel as a sehajdhari, and it seems to come across this way in all directions.


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 20, 2012)

Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for your post.  I want you to expand on the following in your post.





prakash.s.bagga said:


> My personal opinion is that SIKH can not be defined the way it has been done.


_Please define Sikh then for me they way you would like to see it.  I thought the way I worded it was that it was a Sikh recognizing Khalsa but not being necessarily Khalsa at any point in their life.  Specifically to include sehajdhari as a place where more future Khalsa could come from too.

_I thank you for "KHANDE Ki PAHUL" comment as I wanted to put it in the definition/pledge but could not find quick reference.  I believe that this is an ultimate litmus test.  If one does not respect the concept of Khalsa then it is pretty hard to come together in a definition of convergence that includes say sehajdhari and "Tiar-bur_Tiar" Khalsa Sikhs.  Everything else can be worked upon or with goodwill made to converge while respecting each other.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Oct 20, 2012)

> The way things are going, it seems we are closer to more branches like this occuring of exclusion rather than accepting all groups and factions and giving them inclusion.


 
Lucky veerji

How can someone accept all groups or paths as equal while adhearing to one's own path and standing up to any challenges along the way?  If all groups are equal and accepted then we might as well all just take the easy road. 

There is no escaping this problem when dealing with something as subjective as religion.

At least, there must be a definition of Sikh/ism or else it is nothing.  One must draw the line somewhere.

Bhagatji, the offending tag has been removed.


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 20, 2012)

Ishna said:


> Bhagatji, the offending tag has been removed.


Haha
I was not offended at all but was glad to see you developing, maturing and getting frustrated with things e.g. existential stuff, belief in God, which is all part of learning. 

I wanted you to share your experiences with me "What's up?" means what's going on?. But you don't have to and you shouldn't feel the need to remove a tag. In fact, you should put a tag that says "I am an atheist and I don't give rat's bottom about who is offended. This is where I am right now, everything I have done, been exposed to and my being have lead me here. It may change, it may not change but I do know that whatever becomes of me and whatever I come across in life,  I am capable of tackling it full force". :grinningsingh: Ok that maybe too long, and probably won't fit there but it's the attitude the counts right?


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 20, 2012)

Ishna ji I would love to get some of your ideas.  You can private message if you so chose.





Ishna said:


> There is no escaping this problem when dealing with something as subjective as religion.
> 
> At least, there must be a definition of Sikh/ism or else it is nothing.  One must draw the line somewhere.


_My intention in this pursuit is to stabilize the shrinking circle due to exclusion and abate the same.  Fortunately it could also be a springboard for expanding the circle of inclusion.  There is no point in addressing in this pledge those who in their heart of hearts do not believe/respect Khalsa of Guru Gobind Singh ji at all._

I do not like to boil the ocean but have baby steps.  There has to be specificity as otherwise there will be no impact on the issue that the pledge is trying to impact.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:*  I am drafting a response to Harry ji and other posts but want to take the time to review the suggestions and implications in greater detail.

I want to see the Sikhs to recognize what the rest of the world considers as Sikhs beyond turban and hair physicals.  For example even though there are copycat "Kara" wearers it still sets a flag for me when I see one wearing a Kara.  This raises a specter of some special commonality which should not pull people apart rather should get recognized to bring people together.


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 20, 2012)

Please tell me how we are NOT talking about adherent tags in this thread. :interestedmunda:


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 21, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for your post. I want you to expand on the following in your post._Please define Sikh then for me they way you would like to see it. I thought the way I worded it was that it was a Sikh recognizing Khalsa but not being necessarily Khalsa at any point in their life. Specifically to include sehajdhari as a place where more future Khalsa could come from too._
> 
> I thank you for "KHANDE Ki PAHUL" comment as I wanted to put it in the definition/pledge but could not find quick reference. I believe that this is an ultimate litmus test. If one does not respect the concept of Khalsa then it is pretty hard to come together in a definition of convergence that includes say sehajdhari and "Tiar-bur_Tiar" Khalsa Sikhs. Everything else can be worked upon or with goodwill made to converge while respecting each other.
> 
> ...


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 21, 2012)

Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for your post.





prakash.s.bagga said:


> Ambarsaria said:
> 
> 
> > I think there should be a clarity who is a Sikh and Who is a Khalsa.
> ...


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 21, 2012)

*PS: *Prakash.S.Bagga ji why you call it "KHANDE KI PAHUL" and not "KHANDE DEE PAHUL".

AMBARSARIA Ji 
Well I stand corrected for this 'Actually it is "KHADE DEE PAHUL"
Moreover I feel the word "Belief" shuld not be applicable to Khalsa.
Taking "KHANDE DEE PAHUL" As Amrit is basically an open invitation for anyone 
to become Khalsa.
These are some personal views only.
Your attempt is really appreciable if it gets overall acceptance from Sangat .

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 21, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your posts.





prakash.s.bagga said:


> Moreover I feel the word "Belief" shuld not be applicable to Khalsa.


_I see a progression from a Sikh to Khalsa as follows,_


_One always has to start with believing and so one has to believe in "Khandey dee Pahul"._
_One has to prepare one self to take "Khandey dee Pahul"._
_One has to take "Khandey dee Pahul"._
_One has to practice and deliver on the vow taken per "Khandey dee Pahul"._
So for me a Sikh as a minimum has to have 1.  Of course Khalsa has already crossed that milestone so it is not specific to them.


If you take note of the language in Sikh Rehat Maryada it is noted why the Amrit should be taken by people of age (no young children) as and when they are ready as say per step 2 above.  However step 1 is foundational for young and old who have taken Amrit or not but want to claim to be Sikhs or be so associated or counted in.


Any thoughts.



Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 21, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your posts._I see a progression from a Sikh to Khalsa as follows,_
> 
> 
> _One always has to start with believing and so one has to believe in "Khandey dee Pahul"._
> ...


 
Well I know only this that Non Amritdhari Sikhs are not treated at par with Amritdhari ones.So long this feeling would persist I find no meaning in giving any commoness in the definition. I have already stated it is all political  considerations involved in the matter.

I just remember How once Raagi Jaspal Singh Ji were disallowed to do kitan in a Gurdwara because one of companion being Non Amritdhari and Non Keshdhari.

What wiuld you call a person who is Non Amritdhari,Non Keshdhari if such a person says that he believes in Amrit as Given by GuRu Gobind Singh ji.
and follows the teachings of SGGS Is Such person not a Sikh?

According to commonness of "belief" such a person should be a Sikh but Such a person is not considered as Sikh .

So the point of Belief in "Khande Dee Pahul" as Amrit  has no implications for any one to be known as Sikh. 

Did GuRu Gobind Singh ji first asked  Sangat to "Believe " in Khande Dee PAHUL as AMRIT and thereafter initiated this.No....There was direct invitation for any one to come for this .

I personally think taking "Khande DEE PAHUL" as Amrit is a subject matter of soliciting rather than believing.This KHANDE DEE PAHUL as Amrit can not be given.it is to be solicited.

At the end I may tell that this subject matter is not a simple one .This problem is associated with several comlex factors mainly socio-political.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 21, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for elaborating. 

However I do not want you to throw up your hands and say it is impossible.  Suggest something or a way and alternative.

Remember my only purpose and thoughts are along the way that we need to build bridges while recognizing certain minimum commonality of values as Sikhs.  Obviously such minimum qualities will be less than Khalsa but on the way from a Sikh to Khalsa.

I believe this is far too important for us to not work on and just give up.  Future generations will curse us for our apathy.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Brother Onam (Oct 21, 2012)

Gur fateh!
I like the pledge very much. The one missing element for me is a call to environmental consciousness. In the bani of Har Har it is stated that Waheguru is present in water, air and earth, and as such, they are sacred. To pollute them then is a great sin. My complaint, both in this pledge and more importantly, in sikh practice in general, is that we often neglect how crucial it is to include cherishing the Creation in our devotion. It dismays me so much when I go to various gurdwaras and see, at Langar, styrofoam plates and plastic cutlery used and then thrown away. This is the behaviour of non-believers. As children of Waheguru, it is required that our relationship with the sacred Creation is higher than the behaviour of the thoughtless; the children of doom.
Don't know how you'd include such an imperative in the pledge, but you get my point. Any religion that does not cherish water as sacred (in actual practice) is false religion.                Har Har Love, Onam


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 21, 2012)

Welcome to the forum Onam ji. I hope you will tell us more about spirituality in relation to the elements.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 22, 2012)

Frank496 said:


> It would be great if you explained the purpose of taking this pledge.


 

The pledge is relevent and significant for

It helps in developing sense of belonging

It helps keeping one binding for certain commitments as per requirement 
of any organisation be of any type.

Even Military personnel are required to undertake pledge for thei commitments.

But at spritual level the pledge is for the commitment  with CREATOR
GuRu.(In Sikhi way of life)

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Harry Haller (Oct 22, 2012)

My own thoughts are that we should celebrate our common ground, and not just for Sikhs, but for all humanity. If one were to focus on differences, even identical twins could find something not to have in common. 

I have very little value for the spoken or written word. It merely captures a snapshot of the constant dialogue taking place in the brain. What we speak or write tends to be the more palatable and socially acceptable portion of this dialogue. 

We all make pledges of all sorts of descriptions, some Sikhs pledge to read more bani, go to Gurdwara more often, drink less, yank out a few less hairs, when really the only thing that matters is following the yellow brick road. Hukam shines out like silver gossamer on a clear night. Picked out by the moonlight, its gentle inviting radiance bewitches you, it is the path of truth, love and compassion. 

I think Sikhism is very simple, I also think we are determined to make it as hard as possible. Know what the truth is, and follow it like a moth, to me, that is what being a Sikh is. The K's, Amrit, the rituals, traditions, prayers, paths all count for nothing unless you know in your heart what the truth is, and live your life by it. 

However, if you do know, then the very facets that people get obsessed by, become the icing on the cake.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 22, 2012)

One can think over the meanings of this Song from film "KHAAMOSHEE" as

"PIYAR KO PIYAR HEE RAHNE DO KOEE NAAM NAA DO"

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 22, 2012)

Harry veer ji thanks for your post.  I appreciate your thoughts.  I have some observations for discourse where I have excerpted parts of your draft that I want to comment on.





harry haller said:


> *Sikhism Pledge*​ *(draft)*​  ....  regardless of religion and belief.


 _Veer ji this pledge is about Sikhs treating each other with some dignity regardless who is more complete than the other.  My interest is to encourage people to see the common._

_If we as Sikhs cannot do that within ourselves all the messages of us trying to do other holiness regarding the plight of others become less respected or more of a chatter.  We need to get our house in order and show bigger hearts to allow and accept Sikhs with deficiencies as still Sikhs._

_I aslo believe that there is greater detail needed when we claim to respect or defend other faiths.  One Catch-22 comes to mind and I describe below,

*Situation 1:*  Picture Iran and the person is sentenced to death by stoning for adultery/"being gay".

*What would a Sikh do?  *
_

_ Fight with the crowd to free the woman/"person"._
_Respect the religious interpreters and sentence makers as having a right to practice their religion as they choose._
_Defend it as their right to do it as they please within their religious beliefs and defend such beliefs._

_*Situation 2:* A young child is shot by adult people in the name of their interpretation of what is Islam and that it teaches the girls not be educated.
_

_Do we shoot back at such persons as Sikh._
_Do we leave it alone to be handled by their own people._
_Defend it as their right to do it as they please within their religious beliefs and defend such beliefs.
_
_ 
*What would a Sikh do?  *
_

_ Fight with the crowd to free the woman._
_Respect the religious interpreters and sentence makers as having a right to practice their religion as they choose._
I believe it is a very dangerous space no matter how pious the intentions.  We would have to end up studying such faiths in great depth to even understand what to defend or not defend.  So in this pledge it is first and foremost to be centric at least to what we know as Sikhs, may not be as perfect but still of value.



harry haller said:


> *Sikhism Pledge*​ *(draft)*...  By the _grace of Creator_
> 
> 
> give me the strength
> ...


  Holistically I have no issues with suggestions for,



Humanity is all one
  o       [/FONT]If you believe in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji it is an oxy{censored} to be emphasized as it is so strongly emphasized in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji


Respect for the environment
  o       [/FONT]Again if one believes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and acts accordingly then the respect for living in consonance is so highlighted in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
  o       [/FONT]I appreciate Onam ji’s observations and comments along these lines


However the purpose of this pledge is to help Sikhs treat each other with greater respect and become a stronger community with a big heart.  It in  no way diminishes the need to treat all of any or no faith with great respect too.


  Sat Sri Akal.
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## Parma (Oct 22, 2012)

After giving it some thought I think if you are going to try do a pledge it should start from the position of Seva. That is where the problem is and that is where people start to argue and bicker. If you can get them to agree on the seva then you have a basis for The pledge otherwise it is pointless. Like when you go to the Gurudwara why is never a mona reading the Guru Granth Sahib and only an amritdhari things like this what has the other fellow done so wrong he gives the same respect and love to the Guru just they are not allowed to show their seva and love of gurbani to the congregation. Starting point anyway if anything can be formed it will have to have a common point otherwise their is no point in the pledge


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 22, 2012)

Parma said:


> ....should start from the position of Seva. ..... Like when you go to the Gurudwara why is never a mona reading the Guru Granth Sahib and only an amritdhari things like this what has the other fellow done so wrong


_Veer I will take any starting point that people consider is valid.  The seva reference you give above goes back to Sikh Rehat Maryada.  I am not sure there is a way to address that and how best.  I believe some people said it should be looked at and others said it is fine.  We are at a kind of Mexican standoff and no one wants to blink!

I think it is important to break such impasse positively.

_Thanks for your comments.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Oct 23, 2012)

If anyone wants to do Sewa at any given time, no one can stop them. But it could be one time commitment.

Amrit is a strong commitment for life.


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## Parma (Oct 23, 2012)

Ambarsaria said:


> _Veer I will take any starting point that people consider is valid. The seva reference you give above goes back to Sikh Rehat Maryada. I am not sure there is a way to address that and how best. I believe some people said it should be looked at and others said it is fine. We are at a kind of Mexican standoff and no one wants to blink!_
> 
> _I think it is important to break such impasse positively._
> 
> ...


 
LOl this is the problem with our commnunities it is a mexican standoff, funny but sad at the same time! Look at the type of seva they all agree on and look at the seva they dont all agree on, I guess that is the best way to continue! I appriciate your efforts Ambersaria Ji, but our societies are too hard headed to agree common ground on such trivial issues. It is like people are stuck in the medieval era and modern era. The old society will drop out slowly they will try keeping it going by making their views more extream but really you can not stop development. We are sikhs and it is in our very nature to develop as humans as sikhs to improve it is like any child fights with there mother and father for the reform, but the parents will not listen, brother it is a common myth that things were better in the past, if they were new socities would not estabilish new orders and reform would not happen, certain things we will look at with romantic view on how things were better then but realisticly we need to stop living in past look at the present look at the here and now! Was the mughal rule better for sikhs? The way you may get the older order to realise it is to make them realise that change, and reform is just a natural law of nature you cannot change it or stop it unless you have an understanding parent and child, in the house of god that is how things should be, a bit like 2 + 3 = then you get the answer 5, the 2 represents the old thinkers, the 3 represents the new thinkers and the + represents the symbol sikhism and = answer is the Guru Granth Sahib. Now we have the formula it is getting the answer that they all agree on? Hopefully the answer of peace and love comes above all other thought processes, and not the number 5!


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## Harry Haller (Oct 23, 2012)

> _Veer ji this pledge is about Sikhs treating each  other with some dignity regardless who is more complete than the other.   My interest is to encourage people to see the common._



Apologies, this is more of a pledge on how to deal with fellow Sikhs, so my post is largely redundant!



> _If we as Sikhs cannot do that within ourselves all  the messages of us trying to do other holiness regarding the plight of  others become less respected or more of a chatter.  We need to get our  house in order and show bigger hearts to allow and accept Sikhs with  deficiencies as still Sikhs._



Agreed



> give me the strength
> _Creator did  not hold back anything when we are       created.  So no point bugging  him for more Powerade/Gatorade or       Energy drink.
> _
> 
> ...



Help me find the strength
and determination to uphold my beliefs
and to serve Creation well


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## Brother Onam (Oct 24, 2012)

Ishna ji,
This was my feeling too. When you go out of your way to make everybody feel at home, you've lost the identity. Sikhs are a most holy people throughout history. The actual definition of 'holy' or 'sacred', is "separate or set-apart", which is to say, separate or set-apart from the profane or the mundane.
Having a body of Sikhs is powerful only if it is distinct and set-apart from general mankind, who, let's face it, are by and large weak and destructive and confused and generally without real guidance. Otherwise you wouldn't have a planet that's dying from pollution and unending wars and strife.
Point being, when you water down the definition of what it means to be Sikhi (even to the point of wanting to include atheists), you lose the power and purpose. Guru Gobind Singh intended to make a distinct and separate people when instituting amrit and the 5 K's.


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## Parma (Oct 24, 2012)

Onam Ji said:


> Ishna ji,
> This was my feeling too. When you go out of your way to make everybody feel at home, you've lost the identity. Sikhs are a most holy people throughout history. The actual definition of 'holy' or 'sacred', is "separate or set-apart", which is to say, separate or set-apart from the profane or the mundane.
> Having a body of Sikhs is powerful only if it is distinct and set-apart from general mankind, who, let's face it, are by and large weak and destructive and confused and generally without real guidance. Otherwise you wouldn't have a planet that's dying from pollution and unending wars and strife.
> Point being, when you water down the definition of what it means to be Sikhi (even to the point of wanting to include atheists), you lose the power and purpose. Guru Gobind Singh intended to make a distinct and separate people when instituting amrit and the 5 K's.


 
Onam ji, it is very well saying what you say, but their is one fundamental big flaw with your idea! You saying that the others are not sikhs does not eliminate them from proclaiming themselves to be sikhs! If a sehajdhari wants to call himself a sikh, a nirankari and everything else under the sun, then he will do, they may not be baptised sikhs but if they proclaim to be a sikh who are we to stop them! I can not see Guru Gobind Singh Ji or any other guru cutting off someone's head for proclaiming to be the divotee of the Guru's Shabad regardless!


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## Brother Onam (Oct 24, 2012)

Bhagatsingh ji,
My dear brother, in my journey through this life I've learned (I've walked numerous spiritual paths), that religions tend to begin in pure holiness and then tend to become mundane in the real life of the general population. This is just human nature; to maintain the real holiness inside of the faith is a result of strong deliberation. As such, behind most religions as presently represented in current society, if we really seek, we find something closer to genuine Sacred Truth. Christianity, for instance, as walked by Yeshua (Jesus) in Palestine in his time was wildly different than what we know as "Christianity" today; much closer to a genuine holiness.
The point I'm making, is that we, as living creatures on this Earth, were placed here by a loving God and provided a blessed and beautiful planet, exquisitely designed to nurture us and the rest of the family of Life. Whatever our belief system, if we are true believers, our lives would be an ongoing ardaas to the Lifegiver. Above and beyond what our teachings or beliefs are, if we are really children of the Most High, our lives will reflect constant gratitude.
Look at this world: we want pure water when we are thirsty, when we want to bathe a newborn baby, when we want to cook, when we want to prepare amrit, even if we want to make a gin and tonic; everybody wants pure water. But this sacred resource, this timeless precious blessed resource, we pollute it. Every river is used to carry away sewage and industrial waste and agricultural poisons. Every sea is a cheap trash-dump and toilet. And now, folly of follies, even scientists are confirming great parts of the vast oceans themselves are now dead and devoid of either fish or plant life, while islands of plastic waste the size of whole countries are being discovered churning together in parts of the oceans where currents have gathered trash into 'landmasses' of garbage. I recently read that scientists had realized on some beaches fully a quarter of the 'sand' is really plastic waste, ground fine by the motion of the waters; too fine to retrieve, but just right to lead to epidemics of cancers and toxic fish etc., who live in this filth. This we have done to the blessed water from Above.
We all want fresh air. If we are working in a dirty place or there is rottenness or foul smells, we love to open the windows and let in fresh air. If a child is sick we want them to breathe fresh air. If there is chemical production or engine exhaust, we want fresh air. Everybody loves fresh air. Yet we pollute it, through every motor car, every jet flying, every factory, every time we spraypaint something or burn plastics, or produce styrofoams or use a leafblower or a motorcycle or whatever. Cities around the world are covered in thick, poisonous hazes of smog. This is what we do to the blessed, life-giving air from Above.
We, all living things, want pure foods. If we are feeding a baby or a child, or cooking a nice feast, or just craving a mango or some orange juice, we want pure food. But the soil we pollute. I've traveled a lot, yet I have not yet seen a country where people don't throw plastic trash all on the ground, and in so-called third-world countries, this can amount to a carpet of toxic plastic trash everywhere. There I see heaps and mounds of garbage everywhere, sometimes ever-growing, sometimes burned in acrid toxic fires, sometimes buried in the sacred soil. But never diminishing. This is how we treat the sacred soil.
In the bani of Har Har, it is stated that the Great Giver gives, and we take so much, we get tired taking. This is reality but it is not spiritual life. We take the mango and the coconut from the tree, and in exchange we pollute both the soil and the rain the tree wants. We take the pure water from the river, and in exchange we run-off our chemical wastes into the rivers.
My point, my dear brother, is that if we are children of Har Har, whatever profession of faith comes out of our mouths, our life on this blessed planet would reflect gratitude. Living creatures, including many human cultures, have existed on this blessed Earth for thousands of years in a relationship with the Creation where their presence did not spell destruction of their habitats or environments. Now, there is another spirit governing a people that, wherever they find a foot-hold on this Earth, things begin to get diseased and die. So the challenge as I see it, is to be aware of this distinction. It seems that whatever we profess, our relationship to Waheguru is reflected in whether we are, in effect, contributers of healing or contributors of doom. I don't need to tell you, this world is full of people convinced of their holiness or of their being 'saved'. But we believe in Har Har Rae and gratitude and peace-with-the-Creation is the real religion.
Sorry about the many words.


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## Parma (Oct 24, 2012)

Onam Ji said:


> Bhagatsingh ji,
> My dear brother, in my journey through this life I've learned (I've walked numerous spiritual paths), that religions tend to begin in pure holiness and then tend to become mundane in the real life of the general population. This is just human nature; to maintain the real holiness inside of the faith is a result of strong deliberation. As such, behind most religions as presently represented in current society, if we really seek, we find something closer to genuine Sacred Truth. Christianity, for instance, as walked by Yeshua (Jesus) in Palestine in his time was wildly different than what we know as "Christianity" today; much closer to a genuine holiness.
> The point I'm making, is that we, as living creatures on this Earth, were placed here by a loving God and provided a blessed and beautiful planet, exquisitely designed to nurture us and the rest of the family of Life. Whatever our belief system, if we are true believers, our lives would be an ongoing ardaas to the Lifegiver. Above and beyond what our teachings or beliefs are, if we are really children of the Most High, our lives will reflect constant gratitude.
> Look at this world: we want pure water when we are thirsty, when we want to bathe a newborn baby, when we want to cook, when we want to prepare amrit, even if we want to make a gin and tonic; everybody wants pure water. But this sacred resource, this timeless precious blessed resource, we pollute it. Every river is used to carry away sewage and industrial waste and agricultural poisons. Every sea is a cheap trash-dump and toilet. And now, folly of follies, even scientists are confirming great parts of the vast oceans themselves are now dead and devoid of either fish or plant life, while islands of plastic waste the size of whole countries are being discovered churning together in parts of the oceans where currents have gathered trash into 'landmasses' of garbage. I recently read that scientists had realized on some beaches fully a quarter of the 'sand' is really plastic waste, ground fine by the motion of the waters; too fine to retrieve, but just right to lead to epidemics of cancers and toxic fish etc., who live in this filth. This we have done to the blessed water from Above.
> ...


 
Onam Ji, the processes you are talking about in the above is of over indulgence, the waste is a nessesity as well as the purity, it is keeping it in balance that is what the whole process of life is about. Without the waste from the animals and humans their would be no manure for the soil, and without the purity of the rain water their would be no water to feed the plants they are both necessary for the seed and plant and life to grow!


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 24, 2012)

Onam ji thanks for your posts.  Whereas the intent of the thread was _"__to create greater kinship among all Sikhs complete and incomplete_" I value out of the box thinking by yourself, Harry Haller ji and Parma ji as may be a pause that gives other angles to achieve objectives.

Without digressing, Onam ji I do not know if you had a chance to read some other posts regarding our relation to other creation at spn.  I see the strongest message out of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the following,

*"understanding all that is around and resultant consonant living"*

Again and again Guru ji emphasize the common among all that we are part of.  Again and again they emphasize that in a practically, fulfilling life is the one that shows our delivery of results for the gift we are of creator.  These results are of highest joy, glory and value in consonant living.  The emphasis is not on achieving some static state but forever learning and doing and living with greater wisdom that one so gains.

Sat Sri Akal.

​


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 24, 2012)

I am greatly impressed by the reference word Har Har for the
CREATOR being used by Onum ji.
Really a great reference and the Best one as envisaged in SGGS 

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Brother Onam (Oct 24, 2012)

Gur fateh!
Thank you for your thoughts. Please, I just want to be clear. Swami Prabhupada used to teach the four characteristics of a dog are: eating, sleeping, mating and defending. For humans, of course, it is the same, plus one, reason.(ie, thoughtfulness). As such, if we renounce reason, or go through life thoughtlessly, we are no different than dogs, we simply believe we are advanced because we go about on four wheels instead of four paws.
So, please, I am not advocating a life without decay or waste materials, I am simply saying there is a "pro-life" way of conducting ourselves, in which we operate within the cycles of life and not in violation of them. And the thing that must distinguish we who call ourselves believers is to be ever thoughtful; all our lifestyle ought to reflect devotion to Sacred Truth (Sat Naam), and be different than the behaviour of the lost.
By the way, I am a gardener; I very well appreciate the place of decay and waste in the cycle of life; I'm simply saying there is a crucial difference between "organic waste" and plastics and petroleum waste, which is an offence to our Mother Earth everytime. 
Har Har peace be upon you.


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## Luckysingh (Oct 24, 2012)

Amrit bani HAR HAR teri


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 24, 2012)

Onam ji,
Today we see nature, animals, plants, etc as something lesser than us, when in fact Nature is more exalted, and we are part of it.


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 24, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:


> Onam ji,
> Today _*we see*_ nature, animals, plants, etc as something lesser than us, when in fact Nature is more exalted, and we are part of it.


_Bhagat Singh ji *I* always see everything more than us as they are much more in consonance than us from what I observe!  The rains come, the earthquakes come, the sun rises, the dog wags the tail, the bird approaches you, they look after  and love their young __show determined courage to kick the young out of the nest to be on their own, and so on.  I feel recognition of the mool mantar in all, almost naturally, while we continue to debate its connections to symbology, single words, grammar complexities, etc._
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> *ੴ*​ Akwl purK ie`k hY​ God/creator is one​
> *ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥*​ ijs dw nwm 'hoNd vwlw' hY jo isRStI dw rcnhwr hY, jo sB ivc ivAwpk hY, BY qoN rihq hY, vYr-rihq hY, ijs dw srUp kwl qoN pry hY, (Bwv, ijs dw srIr nws-rihq hY), jo jUnW ivc nhIN AwauNdw, ijs dw pRkwS Awpxy Awp qoN hoieAw hY Aqy jo siqgurU dI ikrpw nwl imldw hY[
> 
> Known as the eternal being, is the creator of all, present everywhere, without fear, without animosity, is timeless, is not guided by life cycles, is a self creation and is realized through its own (God/creator) blessing.​


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It is simply awe and marvelous.

Sat Sri Akal.

*PS:*  By the way folks *ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ/"*(God/creator) blessing" is available 24/7 and for us to take, see and recognize.  We are too vain and just don't see it try to look for a unique moment while every living moment is that moment.


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