# Guru And God   No Difference



## simpy

guru prmysru eyko jwxu ] (864-9, goNf, mÚ 5)
gur parmaysar ayko jaan.
Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One.
jo iqsu BwvY so prvwxu ]1] rhwau ] (864-9, goNf, mÚ 5)
jo tis bhaavai so parvaan. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Whatever pleases Him is acceptable and approved. ||1||Pause||


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## simpy

guru dwqw smrQu guru guru sB mih rihAw smwie ] (49-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5) 
gur daataa samrath gur gur sabh meh rahi-aa samaa-ay.
The Guru is the Giver, the Guru is All-powerful. The Guru is All-pervading, contained amongst all.
guru prmysru pwrbRhmu guru fubdw ley qrwie ]2] (49-17, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5) 
gur parmaysar paarbarahm gur dubdaa la-ay taraa-ay. ||2||
The Guru is the Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God. The Guru lifts up and saves those who are drowning. ||2||


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## simpy

guru prmysru eyku hY sB mih rihAw smwie ] (53-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5) 
gur parmaysar ayk hai sabh meh rahi-aa samaa-ay.
The Guru and the Transcendent Lord are one and the same, pervading and permeating amongst all.
ijn kau pUrib iliKAw syeI nwmu iDAwie ] (53-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5) 
jin ka-o poorab likhi-aa say-ee naam Dhi-aa-ay.
Those who have such pre-ordained destiny, meditate on the Naam.
nwnk gur srxwgqI mrY n AwvY jwie ]4]30]100] (53-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5) 
naanak gur sarnaagatee marai na aavai jaa-ay. ||4||30||100||
Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||


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## simpy

gauVI bwvn AKrI mhlw 5 ] (250-1)
ga-orhee baavan akhree mehlaa 5.
Gauree, Baavan Akhree ~ The 52 Letters, Fifth Mehl:
sloku ] (250-1)
salok.
Shalok:
gurdyv mwqw gurdyv ipqw gurdyv suAwmI prmysurw ] (250-1, gauVI, mÚ 5)
gurdayv maataa gurdayv pitaa gurdayv su-aamee parmaysuraa.
The Divine Guru is my mother, the Divine Guru is my father; the Divine Guru is my Transcendent Lord and Master.
gurdyv sKw AigAwn BMjnu gurdyv bMiDp shodrw ] (250-2, gauVI, mÚ 5)
gurdayv sakhaa agi-aan bhanjan gurdayv banDhip sahodaraa.
The Divine Guru is my companion, the Destroyer of ignorance; the Divine Guru is my relative and brother.
gurdyv dwqw hir nwmu aupdysY gurdyv mMqu inroDrw ] (250-2, gauVI, mÚ 5)
gurdayv daataa har naam updaysai gurdayv mant niroDharaa.
The Divine Guru is the Giver, the Teacher of the Lord's Name. The Divine Guru is the Mantra which never fails.
gurdyv sWiq siq buiD mUriq gurdyv pwrs prs prw ] (250-3, gauVI, mÚ 5)
gurdayv saaNt sat buDh moorat gurdayv paaras paras paraa.
The Divine Guru is the Image of peace, truth and wisdom. The Divine Guru is the Philosopher's Stone - touching it, one is transformed.
gurdyv qIrQu AMimRq srovru gur igAwn mjnu AprMprw ] (250-3, gauVI, mÚ 5)
gurdayv tirath amrit sarovar gur gi-aan majan apramparaa.
The Divine Guru is the sacred shrine of pilgrimage, and the pool of divine ambrosia; bathing in the Guru's wisdom, one experiences the Infinite.
gurdyv krqw siB pwp hrqw gurdyv piqq pivq krw ] (250-4, gauVI, mÚ 5)
gurdayv kartaa sabh paap hartaa gurdayv patit pavit karaa.
The Divine Guru is the Creator, and the Destroyer of all sins; the Divine Guru is the Purifier of sinners.
gurdyv Awid jugwid jugu jugu gurdyv mMqu hir jip auDrw ] (250-5, gauVI, mÚ 5)
gurdayv aad jugaad jug jug gurdayv mant har jap uDhraa.
The Divine Guru existed at the primal beginning, throughout the ages, in each and every age. The Divine Guru is the Mantra of the Lord's Name; chanting it, one is saved.
gurdyv sMgiq pRB myil kir ikrpw hm mUV pwpI ijqu lig qrw ] (250-5, gauVI, mÚ 5)
gurdayv sangat parabh mayl kar kirpaa ham moorh paapee jit lag taraa.
O God, please be merciful to me, that I may be with the Divine Guru; I am a foolish sinner, but holding onto Him, I am carried across.
gurdyv siqguru pwrbRhmu prmysru gurdyv nwnk hir nmskrw ]1] (250-6, gauVI, mÚ 5)
gurdayv satgur paarbarahm parmaysar gurdayv naanak har namaskaraa. ||1||
The Divine Guru is the True Guru, the Supreme Lord God, the Transcendent Lord; Nanak bows in humble reverence to the Lord, the Divine Guru. ||1||


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## simpy

guru pwrbRhmu prmysru Awip ] (387-15, Awsw, mÚ 5)
gur paarbarahm parmaysar aap.
The Guru is the Supreme Lord God; He Himself is the Transcendent Lord.
AwT phr nwnk gur jwip ]4]16]67] (387-15, Awsw, mÚ 5)
aath pahar naanak gur jaap. ||4||16||67||
Twenty-four hours a day, O Nanak, meditate on the Guru. ||4||16||67||


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## Randip Singh

Are we saying the actual Guru's were God?


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## simpy

*DO WE HAVE DOUBT!!!!!!!!!!*

*even after reading their own word-GURBANI.....................*

*IS A SOUL THAT IS MEARGED WITH GOD, limited to a human body ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

*IS DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI any different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## simpy

*By the Way,*

*RANDIP VEER, WHAT DO YOU THINK GURU SAHIB IS SAYING IN FOLLOWING LINES:*

*MANN TU JOT SAROOP HAI APNAA MOOL PAHCHAAN*


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## simpy

nwnk AMqir qyrY inDwnu hY qU bwhir vsqu n Bwil ]2] (569-11, vfhMsu, mÚ 3)
naanak antar tayrai niDhaan hai too baahar vasat na bhaal. ||2||
O Nanak, the treasure is within you; do not search for it on the outside. ||2||


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## Archived_Member1

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> guru pwrbRhmu prmysru Awip ] (387-15, Awsw, mÚ 5)
> gur paarbarahm parmaysar aap.
> The Guru is the Supreme Lord God; He Himself is the Transcendent Lord.
> AwT phr nwnk gur jwip ]4]16]67] (387-15, Awsw, mÚ 5)
> aath pahar naanak gur jaap. ||4||16||67||
> Twenty-four hours a day, O Nanak, meditate on the Guru. ||4||16||67||



this can also be interpreted that God, Waheguru, is the ultimate Guru.  the Guru (teacher) of Guru (Nanak).  this is why Nanak meditates on Guru.  why would Guru Nanak meditate on himself?

i believe that the Gurus spoke God's words, they contained the Jot of God, but since God has no form (nirankar) and is not born (ajoonee), it's difficult for me to conceive of them as God.

however, God is also beyond human understanding, so i am very willing to accept that i am wrong.


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## simpy

Jasleen Ji, read Gurbani that tells about Nirgun and Sargun.

like:


Kojq Kojq drsn cwhy ] (98-2, mwJ, mÚ 5)
khojat khojat darsan chaahay.
I have searched and searched, seeking the Blessed Vision of His Darshan.
Bwiq Bwiq bn bn Avgwhy ] (98-2, mwJ, mÚ 5)
bhaat bhaat ban ban avgaahay.
I travelled through all sorts of woods and forests.
inrguxu srguxu hir hir myrw koeI hY jIau Awix imlwvY jIau ]1] (98-2, mwJ, mÚ 5)
nirgun sargun har har mayraa ko-ee hai jee-o aan milaavai jee-o. ||1||
My Lord, Har, Har, is both absolute and related, unmanifest and manifest; is there anyone who can come and unite me with Him? ||1||


and 


mwJ mhlw 3 ] (128-13)
maajh mehlaa 3.
Maajh, Third Mehl:
inrguxu srguxu Awpy soeI ] (128-13, mwJ, mÚ 3)
nirgun sargun aapay so-ee.
The Lord Himself is Unmanifest and Unrelated; He is Manifest and Related as well.
qqu pCwxY so pMifqu hoeI ] (128-13, mwJ, mÚ 3)
tat pachhaanai so pandit ho-ee.
Those who recognize this essential reality are the true Pandits, the spiritual scholars.
Awip qrY sgly kul qwrY hir nwmu mMin vswvixAw ]1] (128-13, mwJ, mÚ 3)
aap tarai saglay kul taarai har naam man vasaavani-aa. ||1||
They save themselves, and save all their families and ancestors as well, when they enshrine the Lord's Name in the mind. ||1||


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## simpy

*In Sukhmani Sahib GURU JI SAYS VERY CLEARLY:*



*BRAHMGYAANI AAP PARMESAR........*


*i will be surprised if people who do Sukhmani Sahib's paath many many times, STILL WONDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

*i hope realy truly hope that people do think that Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Sahibaan are Brahmgyanies, i hope*



*Waheguru Rakha*


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## Archived_Member1

also note that Gurbani says
 [SIZE=-1]Sabh gobind hai sabh gobind hai gobind bin nahee koee

meaning:  everything is god, everything is god, without god, there is nothing. 

so perhaps we're all god? 
[/SIZE]


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## Archived_Member1

honestly, this is a difficult idea for me.  sometimes i think Guru Nanak is Akal Purakh himself.  other times, i believe he was more of a conduit, a direct line to Waheguru...

gurbani can be interpreted in so many ways...  and i the literal interpretation is usually the least correct.


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## simpy

*yes we are all the same ONE, only thing is that 'Iness' does not let us see that truth.*

*that's why Guru Is Telling Us:*

*Mann tu Jot Saroop Hai Apnaa Mool Pachaan*

*Waheguru*


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## simpy

*Key is WE NEED TO LIVE THE TRUTH along with interpreting or while reading/listening interpretations: THE TRUTH THAT GURBANI IS TELLING US AGAIN AND AGAIN.*


*WE NEED TO HAVE FAITH IN GURU JI'S WORD. *


*Dhan Dhan SATGUR Sache Paatshah De Bachan:*


*Matt Vich Ratan Javahar Manak Je Ik Gur Ki Sikh Suni.................*
*Sunya Mannyaa Mann Keeta Bhao.........................................*

*Then Guru Ji gives the Bhujhaee.............................................  Antar Tere Nidhaan Hai.......... Then Nidhaan will tell what is right and what is wrong.............................*



*Waheguru Rakha*


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## simpy

> and i the literal interpretation is usually the least correct.


 
*There is always infinite depth to it, but mostly at scholarly level the interpretations are correct. There are few words that scholars been debating about, but once one start understanding the deeper realities, one doesnt need to worry about that level anymore. *

*Waheguru Rakha*


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## Archived_Member1

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *yes we are all the same ONE, only thing is that 'Iness' does not let us see that truth.*




i think you are exactly right.


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## Sikh80

Nowhere in sikh philosphy we come across that Gurus[10 gurus] were God. It is only this uniqueness that sikhi is respected.


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## Archived_Member1

Sikh80 said:


> Nowhere in sikh philosphy we come across that Gurus[10 gurus] were God. It is only this uniqueness that sikhi is respected.



you don't think so?

what about this?

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥
Gur Nānak Nānak har so*ė. ||4||7||9||
Nanak is the Guru; *Nanak is the Lord Himself*. ||4||7||9||


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## Sikh80

this is a piece of misintepretation only.What do you think??


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## Sikh80

_"Prani eko naam(u) dhiavoh(u), apnee pat(e) seytee ghar(e) javoh(u)_" 
You stated that you know gurmukhi and I have this in Gurmukhi only. Kindly go thru.
page/ang 1294


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## Sikh80

jyvfu BwvY qyvfu hoie ] (6-3, jpu, mÚ 1)
He is as Great as He wishes to be.
nwnk jwxY swcw soie ] (6-3, jpu, mÚ 1)
O Nanak, the True Lord knows.
jy ko AwKY boluivgwVu ] (6-4, jpu, mÚ 1)
If anyone presumes to describe God,
qw ilKIAY isir gwvwrw gwvwru ]26] (6-4, jpu, mÚ 1)
*he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools!* ||26||

The above is also bani Of Nanak ji. Hence he himself cannot state himself to be a Third person.


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## Archived_Member1

Sikh80 said:


> this is a piece of misintepretation only.What do you think??




please give your interpretation. 

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ 

directly translated:

Gur Nanak Nanak Har Soe

Gur= Guru
Nanak = any of the 10 Gurus
Har = God
soe = that

i don't see too many different ways to interpret it.


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## Archived_Member1

Sikh80 said:


> jy ko AwKY boluivgwVu ] (6-4, jpu, mÚ 1)
> If anyone presumes to describe God,
> qw ilKIAY isir gwvwrw gwvwru ]26] (6-4, jpu, mÚ 1)
> *he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools!* ||26||



yet here we are, presuming to describe God! :rofl!!:


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## simpy

*Sikh 80 Ji please tell me HOW YOU WILL DO THIS:*

*gur ke charn riday auir Dhary *


*and MOST IMPORTANT AND EASY ONE:*

*Sukhmani Sahib*
*BRAHMGYANI AAP PARMESAR.....*

*AREN'T GURU BRAHMGYANEES??????*


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## simpy

*We are not describing God here, we are talking about our Gurus same as God.............. let us talk some sense here*

*Describing God means i say that i know exactly what GOD IS...*

*we are following OUR OWN GURUS and saying that our Guru is God. or God is my Guru.................*

*Did we say anywhere that i know all the infinite features of Guru Ji.... NO. *

*Guru is infinite. and GURU IS GOD AND GOD IS GURU.*

*Waheguru rakha*


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## simpy

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ


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## simpy

*there is another one for you guys.*

*Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth sahib Panna #1407*


sd jIvxu Arjunu Amolu AwjonI sMBau ] (1407-11, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, kl´)
_*sad jeevan arjun amol aajonee sambha-o.*_
O Guru Arjun, You are Eternal, Invaluable, Unborn, Self-existent,






:}{}{}:still not satisfied :}{}{}:


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## Sikh80

Jasleen ji
If you do not know any other way of interpreting it,it is not my problem but one can say that Guru nanak dev ji was an embodiment of the Almighty.It is the way Dr. sahib singh ji has also satisfied himself[pl. see his Teeka]
Regarding your translation 

[word by word,it appears there are mistakes in translating soe ]

It would be advisable if we do not interpret Gurbani in haste as there are chances of distorting it. I shall think it over and that you may do as well and then we should discuss the sensitive issue.

I would request you to not to use 'smilies' in post unless you have a compelling reasons.It is also your choice.

Surinder ji,

Yes, all great souls are Brahmgyanis.


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## Archived_Member1

Sikh80 said:


> Jasleen ji
> If you do not know any other way of interpreting it,it is not my problem but one can say that Guru nanak dev ji was an embodiment of the Almighty.It is the way Dr. sahib singh ji has also satisfied himself[pl. see his Teeka]
> Regarding your translation
> 
> [word by word,it appears there are mistakes in translating  soe ]
> 
> It would be advisable if we do not interpret Gurbani in haste as there are chances of distorting it. I shall think it over and that you may do as well and then we should discuss the sensitive issue.
> 
> Surinder ji,
> 
> Yes, all great souls are Brahmgyanis.



i was asking how YOU interpret it.   can you please post the interpretation of Dr. Sahib Singh?  also, how do you interpret soe?

thanks!  

(just telling someone they're wrong without providing the correct information isn't very productive)


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## simpy

*Words of Sahib Singh Ji:*


*ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਗੁਰੂ ਅਤੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਇੱਕ ਰੂਪ ਸਮਝੋ। *

*ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਰੂਪ ਹੈ।੪।੭।੯।*


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## simpy

*Sikh 80 Ji*

*you said:*




> Yes, all great souls are Brahmgyanis.


 
*and Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji De Bachan Ne:*

*Brahmgyanee Aap Parmesar.........  it is simple gurmukhi!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Sikh80

Jasleen ji,

1. I have quoted the translation Of Sahib singh ji. It appears to be fitting the bill. I shall post it tommorrow morning or send it by PM if you approve of it or if it is ok with you.

2.
Regarding the way I would translate it, I would always translate it in a manner that Guru nanak dev ji does not qualify for the status Of Creator/God/lord. God need not come thru. the route of womb.

It is again requested that you may kindly not use smilies unless you are strongly compelled by the urges that you have no control over them. These are irritating and cause diversions.:8-Try it out.:8-


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## simpy

*Prof Sahib Singh Ji*





*ਸਦ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਅਮੋਲੁ ਆਜੋਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥ ਭਯ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਪਰ ਦੁਖ ਨਿਵਾਰੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਨੰਭਉ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1407}*
*pd ArQ:- pr duK—prwey du`K [ AnµBau—igAwn-rUp [*
*ArQ:- (gurU) Arjn (swihb) sd-jIvI hY, (Awp dw) mu`l nhIN pY skdw, (Awp) jUnW qoN rhq qy suqy pRkwS hrI dw rUp hn; (gurU Arjn) BY dUr krn vwlw, prwey du`K hrn vwlw, byAMq qy igAwn-srUp hY [*


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## simpy

*Who is juna to rahat, Who is hari da roop?????????*


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## Archived_Member1

Sikh80 said:


> It is again requested that you may kindly not use smilies, these are irritating.



um, ok...

when using written electronic communication, it often helps to use a "smiley" to show the tone of the post.  for example, i do not want to come across as being angry, or upset, but wish to show that i am posting in a pleasant tone of voice.

i will try not to use them when replying to you, but please allow me to use them when posting responses to others. 

thanks!


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## Archived_Member1

Sikh80 said:


> It is again requested that you may kindly not use smilies unless you are strongly compelled by the urges that you have no control over them. These are irritating and cause diversions.:8-Try it out.:8-




hypocrite.

btw, there's no reason to make the same request repeatedly, i can read it just fine the first time you posted it in this thread.


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## simpy

*Sikh 80 Ji hun javaab khatam hogay!!!!!!*
*Bani ta Guru Nu Parmesar hi kehndi hai tusi manno na manno*

*i have read prof Sahib Singh Ji, he never denies this truth. *

*and i have posted his translations for everybody.*

*Waheguru Rakha*



*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## Archived_Member1

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Prof Sahib Singh Ji*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *ਸਦ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਅਮੋਲੁ ਆਜੋਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥ ਭਯ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਪਰ ਦੁਖ ਨਿਵਾਰੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਨੰਭਉ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1407}*
> *pd ArQ:- pr duK—prwey du`K [ AnµBau—igAwn-rUp [*
> *ArQ:- (gurU) Arjn (swihb) sd-jIvI hY, (Awp dw) mu`l nhIN pY skdw, (Awp) jUnW qoN rhq qy suqy pRkwS hrI dw rUp hn; (gurU Arjn) BY dUr krn vwlw, prwey du`K hrn vwlw, byAMq qy igAwn-srUp hY [*




can someone please translate this into english for us non-punjabis?


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## simpy

*ਅਗਹ ਗਹਣੁ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭ੍ਰਾਂਤਿ ਦਹਣੁ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਸੁਖ ਦਾਤਉ ॥ ਆਸੰਭਉ ਉਦਵਿਅਉ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬਿਧਾਤਉ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1407}*
*pd ArQ:- Agh—jo phuMc qoN pry hY [ Agh ghxu—phuMc qoN pry jo hrI hY aus qweIN phuMc vwlw [ AwsMBau—auqp`qI rhq, Ajnmw [ audivAau—prgt hoieAw hY [ ibDwqau—krqwr, ibDwqw [*
*ArQ:- (gurU Arjn swihb jI dI) aus hrI qk phuMc hY jo (jIvW dI) phuMc qoN pry hY, (gurU Arjn) Brm qy Btkxw ƒ dUr krn vwlw hY, sIql hY qy suKW dy dyx vwlw hY; (mwno) Ajnmw, pUrn purK isrjxhwr pRgt ho ipAw hY [*



*English Version:*


AwsMBau audivAau purKu pUrn ibDwqau ] (1407-12, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, kl´)
asambha-o udvi-a-o purakh pooran biDhaata-o.
The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth.



Sikh 80 Ji, i noticed you have been posting so many translations over and over again, if you think these are misinterpretations, all that work you did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  i am not sure what were you thinking.

anyways these lines tells us about preepuran Sargun and Nirgun Saroop of Waheguru.........................

Aj te Waheguru Sache Paatshah di bari kirpa hoi, bahut bani pari bhaee...........

Waheguru Rakha


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## simpy

sd jIvxu Arjunu Amolu AwjonI sMBau ] (1407-11, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, kl´)
sad jeevan arjun amol aajonee sambha-o.
O Guru Arjun, You are Eternal, Invaluable, Unborn, Self-existent,
BX BMjnu pr duK invwru Apwru AnµBau ] (1407-11, sveIey mhly pMjvyN ky, kl´)
bha-y bhanjan par dukh nivaar apaar anmbha-o.
the Destroyer of fear, the Dispeller of pain, Infinite and Fearless.


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## simpy

*ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਮੇਟੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥*

(ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ) ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਸ਼ਬਦ (ਵੱਸ ਪਏ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰੋਂ) ਕੋਈ ਮਨੁੱਖ (ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੇ ਉਜਾਰੇ ਨੂੰ) ਮਿਟਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦਾ। ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਰੂਪ ਹੈ।੪।੭।੯।


gur kw sbdu n mytY koie ] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
gur kaa sabad na maytai ko-ay.
No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.
guru nwnku nwnku hir soie ]4]7]9] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
gur naanak naanak har so-ay. ||4||7||9||
Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness


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## simpy

*'God' 'Guru' 'Self'         ALL SAME/SYNONYMOUS*


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## spnadmin

Jasleen ji

 Ang 1407

ਗੁਰ  ਅਰਜੁਨ  ਗੁਣ  ਸਹਜਿ  ਬਿਚਾਰੰ  ॥

Gur arjun guṇ sahj bicẖāraŉ.
With intuitive peace and poise, I contemplate the Glorious Virtues of Guru Arjun.

ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਘਰਿ ਕੀਅਉ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸਾ ॥

Gur Rāmḏās gẖar kī*a*o pargāsā.
He was revealed in the House of Guru Raam Daas,

ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੀ ਆਸਾ ॥

Sagal manorath pūrī āsā.
and all hopes and desires were fulfilled.

ਤੈ ਜਨਮਤ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿਓ ॥

Ŧai janmaṯ gurmaṯ barahm pacẖẖāṇi*o.
From birth, He realized God through the Guru's Teachings.

ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਜੋੜਿ ਕਰ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਵਖਾਣਿਓ ॥

Kal*y joṛ kar sujas vakẖāṇi*o.
With palms pressed together, KALL the poet speaks His praises.

ਭਗਤਿ ਜੋਗ ਕੌ ਜੈਤਵਾਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਨਕੁ ਉਪਾਯਉ ॥

Bẖagaṯ jog kou jaiṯvār har janak upā*ya*o.
The Lord brought Him into the world, to practice the Yoga of devotional worship.

ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਰਕਾਸਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਰਸਨ ਬਸਾਯਉ ॥

Sabaḏ gurū parkāsi*o har rasan basā*ya*o.
The Word of the Guru's Shabad has been revealed, and the Lord dwells on His tongue.

ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਗਦ ਅਮਰ ਲਾਗਿ ਉਤਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਯਉ ॥

Gur Nānak angaḏ amar lāg uṯam paḏ pā*ya*o.
Attached to Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, He attained the supreme status.

ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਘਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਭਗਤ ਉਤਰਿ ਆਯਉ ॥੧॥

Gur arjun gẖar gur Rāmḏās bẖagaṯ uṯar ā*ya*o. ||1||
In the House of Guru Raam Daas, the devotee of the Lord, Guru Arjun was born. ||1||

ਬਡਭਾਗੀ ਉਨਮਾਨਿਅਉ ਰਿਦਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਬਸਾਯਉ ॥

Badbẖāgī unmāni*a*o riḏ sabaḏ basā*ya*o.
By great good fortune, the mind is uplifted and exalted, and the Word of the Shabad dwells in the heart.

ਮਨੁ ਮਾਣਕੁ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਅਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਯਉ ॥

Man māṇak santhokẖi*a*o gur nām ḏariṛāĥ*ya*o.
The jewel of the mind is contented; the Guru has implanted the Naam, the Name of the Lord, within.

ਅਗਮੁ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਦਰਸਾਯਉ ॥

Agam agocẖar pārbarahm saṯgur ḏarsā*ya*o.
The Inaccessible and Unfathomable, Supreme Lord God is revealed through the True Guru.

ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਘਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਅਨਭਉ ਠਹਰਾਯਉ ॥੨॥

Gur arjun gẖar gur Rāmḏās anbẖa*o ṯẖahrā*ya*o. ||2||
In the House of Guru Raam Daas, Guru Arjun has appeared as the Embodiment of the Fearless Lord. ||2||

ਜਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਬਰਤਾਇਆ ਸਤਜੁਗੁ ਆਲੀਣਾ ॥

Janak rāj barṯā*i*ā saṯjug ālīṇā.
The benign rule of Raja Janak has been established, and the Golden Age of Sat Yuga has begun.

ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੇ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਅਪਤੀਜੁ ਪਤੀਣਾ ॥

Gur sabḏė man māni*ā apṯīj paṯīṇā.
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the mind is pleased and appeased; the unsatisfied mind is satisfied.

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਵ ਸਾਜਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਲੀਣਾ ॥

Gur Nānak sacẖ nīv sāj saṯgur sang līṇā.
Guru Nanak laid the foundation of Truth; He is blended with the True Guru.

ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਘਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਅਪਰੰਪਰੁ ਬੀਣਾ ॥੩॥

Gur arjun gẖar gur Rāmḏās aprampar bīṇā. ||3||
In the House of Guru Raam Daas, Guru Arjun has appeared as the Embodiment of the Infinite Lord. ||3||

ਖੇਲੁ ਗੂੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਉ ਕੀਅਉ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ਸੰਤੋਖਿ ਸਮਾਚਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਿਓ ਬਿਮਲ ਬੁਧਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਸਮਾਣਉ ॥

Kẖėl gūṛĥa*o kī*a*o har rā*ė sanṯokẖ samācẖri*ya*o bimal buḏẖ saṯgur samāṇa*o.
The Sovereign Lord King has staged this wondrous play; contentment was gathered together, and pure understanding was infused in the True Guru.

ਆਜੋਨੀ ਸੰਭਵਿਅਉ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਕਵੀਅਣਿ ਬਖਾਣਿਅਉ ॥

Ājonī sambẖvi*a*o sujas kal*y kavī*aṇ bakẖāṇi*a*o.
KALL the poet utters the Praises of the Unborn, Self-existent Lord.

ਗੁਰਿ ਨਾਨਕਿ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਵਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਗਦਿ ਅਮਰ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥

Gur Nānak angaḏ var*ya*o gur angaḏ amar niḏẖān.
Guru Nanak blessed Guru Angad, and Guru Angad blessed Guru Amar Daas with the treasure.

ਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਵਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਪਾਰਸੁ ਪਰਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ॥੪॥

Gur Rāmḏās arjun var*ya*o pāras paras parmāṇ. ||4||
Guru Raam Daas blessed Guru Arjun, who touched the Philosopher's Stone, and was certified. ||4||

ਸਦ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਅਮੋਲੁ ਆਜੋਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥

Saḏ jīvaṇ arjun amol ājonī sambẖa*o.
O Guru Arjun, You are Eternal, Invaluable, Unborn, Self-existent,

ਭਯ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਪਰ ਦੁਖ ਨਿਵਾਰੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਨੰਭਉ ॥

Bẖay bẖanjan par ḏukẖ nivār apār anmbẖa*o.
the Destroyer of fear, the Dispeller of pain, Infinite and Fearless.

ਅਗਹ ਗਹਣੁ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭ੍ਰਾਂਤਿ ਦਹਣੁ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਸੁਖ ਦਾਤਉ ॥

Agah gahaṇ bẖaram bẖarāŉṯ ḏahaṇ sīṯal sukẖ ḏāṯa*o.
You have grasped the Ungraspable, and burnt away doubt and skepticism. You bestow cooling and soothing peace.

ਆਸੰਭਉ ਉਦਵਿਅਉ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬਿਧਾਤਉ ॥

Asambẖao uḏvi*a*o purakẖ pūran biḏẖāṯa*o.
The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth.

ਨਾਨਕ ਆਦਿ ਅੰਗਦ ਅਮਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇਅਉ ॥

Nānak āḏ angaḏ amar saṯgur sabaḏ samā*i*a*o.
First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad.

ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਗੁਰੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਪਾਰਸੁ ਪਰਸਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਅਉ ॥੫॥

Ḏẖan ḏẖan gurū Rāmḏās gur jin pāras paras milā*i*a*o. ||5||
Blessed, blessed is Guru Raam Daas, the Philosopher's Stone, who transformed Guru Arjun unto Himself. ||5||

ਜੈ ਜੈ ਕਾਰੁ ਜਾਸੁ ਜਗ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਮੰਦਰਿ ਭਾਗੁ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸਿਵ ਰਹਤਾ ॥

Jai jai kār jās jag anḏar manḏar bẖāg jugaṯ siv rahṯā.
His victory is proclaimed all over the world; His Home is blessed with good fortune; He remains united with the Lord.

ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਯਉ ਬਡ ਭਾਗੀ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੇਦਨਿ ਭਰੁ ਸਹਤਾ ॥

Gur pūrā pāyao bad bẖāgī liv lāgī mėḏan bẖar sahṯā.
By great good fortune, He has found the Perfect Guru; He remains lovingly attuned to Him, and endures the load of the earth.

ਭਯ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਪਰ ਪੀਰ ਨਿਵਾਰਨੁ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਸਹਾਰੁ ਤੋਹਿ ਜਸੁ ਬਕਤਾ ॥

Bẖay bẖanjan par pīr nivāran kaly sahār ṯohi jas bakṯā.
He is the Destroyer of fear, the Eradicator of the pains of others. Kall Sahaar the poet utters Your Praise, O Guru.

ਕੁਲਿ ਸੋਢੀ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਤਨੁ ਧਰਮ ਧੁਜਾ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ॥੬॥

Kul sodẖī gur Rāmḏās ṯan ḏẖaram ḏẖujā arjun har bẖagṯā. ||6||
In the Sodhi family, is born Arjun, the son of Guru Raam Daas, the holder of the banner of Dharma and the devotee of God. ||6||

ਧ੍ਰੰਮ ਧੀਰੁ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਗਭੀਰੁ ਪਰ ਦੁਖ ਬਿਸਾਰਣੁ ॥

Ḏẖaramm ḏẖīr gurmaṯ gabẖīr par ḏukẖ bisāraṇ.
The Support of the Dharma, immersed in the deep and profound Teachings of the Guru, the Remover of the pains of others.

ਸਬਦ ਸਾਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਸਮ ਉਦਾਰੁ ਅਹੰਮੇਵ ਨਿਵਾਰਣੁ ॥

Sabaḏ sār har sam uḏār ahaŉmėv nivāraṇ.
The Shabad is excellent and sublime, kind and generous like the Lord, the Destroyer of egotism.

ਮਹਾ ਦਾਨਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ ਨ ਹੁਟੈ ॥

Mahā ḏān saṯgur gi*ān man cẖā*o na hutai.
The Great Giver, the spiritual wisdom of the True Guru, His mind does not grow weary of its yearning for the Lord.

ਸਤਿਵੰਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਨਵ ਨਿਧਿ ਨ ਨਿਖੁਟੈ ॥

Saṯvanṯ har nām manṯar nav niḏẖ na nikẖutai.
The Embodiment of Truth, the Mantra of the Lord's Name, the nine treasures are never exhausted.

ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਤਨੁ ਸਰਬ ਮੈ ਸਹਜਿ ਚੰਦੋਆ ਤਾਣਿਅਉ ॥

Gur Rāmḏās ṯan sarab mai sahj cẖanḏo*ā ṯāṇi*a*o.
O Son of Guru Raam Daas, You are contained amidst all; the canopy of intuitive wisdom is spread above You.

ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯੁਚਰੈ ਤੈ ਰਾਜ ਜੋਗ ਰਸੁ ਜਾਣਿਅਉ ॥੭॥

Gur arjun kal*yucẖrai ṯai rāj jog ras jāṇi*a*o. ||7||
So speaks KALL the poet: O Guru Arjun, You know the sublime essence of Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||7||​


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## Randip Singh

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *DO WE HAVE DOUBT!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> *even after reading their own word-GURBANI.....................*
> 
> *IS A SOUL THAT IS MEARGED WITH GOD, limited to a human body ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> *IS DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI any different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*



Agreed soul is merged with God, but they are part of God but not God themselves.


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## simpy

*Ek Tu Hi, Ek Tu Hi..................*

*Sabh Gobind hai sabh Gobind hai Gobind Bin nahi Koi.........................*

*Sargun Nirgun Nirankaar Sunn Samaadhee Aap...........*
*Sabh kich aapey aap...................*




*Dualty dies down eventually veer Randip Ji.......*


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## Archived_Member_19

random blip

YouTube - Joan Osbourne - One of Us


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## Archived_Member_19

YouTube - Rumi: Say I Am You (Sufi poem)


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## spnadmin

Randip ji

What you point out is always a slender distinction in many world religions that say that God is Within Us. This idea will be turned around by some to say: God is Within Us; We are Within God; therefore, we are God. Which in the end leads to a kind of pantheism. The immanence and transcendence of God are erased. Next comes the argument that if we are God then there is more than one god. Proceeding to a kind of free-form polytheism. So I don't take your question lightly. It needs to be asked.


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## simpy

*Gurbani tells us *


*EkOnkaar..................*

*One and Only one.*

*Let us read more Gurbani and see What and How Guru Ji tells us more and more about it.*

*Sabh Gobind Hai...............*
*Gobind is Waheguru/God. *
*Sabh is ALL(Everything)*
*Hai means is.*

*All is Waheguru. *

*THEN HOW CAN WE EXCLUDE Dhan Dhan GURU SAHIBAAN JI FROM this 'ALL'???????*



*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## simpy

*Let us stick with What Dhan Dhan Guru Ji is saying. *


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## BhagatSingh

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Gurbani tells us *
> 
> 
> *EkOnkaar..................*
> 
> *One and Only one.*
> 
> *Let us read more Gurbani and see What and How Guru Ji tells us more and more about it.*
> 
> *Sabh Gobind Hai...............*
> *Gobind is Waheguru/God. *
> *Sabh is ALL(Everything)*
> *Hai means is.*
> 
> *All is Waheguru. *
> 
> *THEN HOW CAN WE EXCLUDE Dhan Dhan GURU SAHIBAAN JI FROM this 'ALL'???????*
> 
> 
> 
> *humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*



All is waheguru oh therefore  I AM GOD!
ya...
The Gurus weren't God in a special case. IF they are God so are you and I. 
 Gurus aren't God or an avatar of God or anything like that. They were humans just like you and me. Saying that All is Waheguru, then saying that  so were Guru JIs is misleading. If all is God, then we are in fact, ALSO included in that.

This thread is POINTLESS. It doesn't go anywhere!


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## Archived_Member_19

maybe people like the consolation of day dreaming about reaching a destination point while it was all within you and the person sitting next to you


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## simpy

*Sabh kich Ghar men Bahar Naahi............. Bahar Tole Jo Bharam Bhulaaeen*


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## simpy

*THIS THREAD IS THE 'POINT', BHAGAT SINGH VEER.  it is not useless.*


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## BhagatSingh

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *THIS THREAD IS THE 'POINT', BHAGAT SINGH VEER.  it is not useless.*


nonsense! What is the point of the thread? That All is God? SO What?? Then you say Guru is God because ALL is God?? So What?? I could make a thread saying, ALL is God so I am God! So WHat?? Where does it lead to? What's the point in that??


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## simpy

*Veer Bhagat Singh Ji,*

*Gurbani says: *

*Guru Nanak is God Himself.*
*Gurbani (WHICH IS MY GURU as well) is God.*
*All is God.*
*God is All.*

*If this thread was a nuisance, I AM SURE, Admin/Moderators would have got it stopped long before your approval mere veer.*

*me neech is exactly following Gurbani, and will keep doing so. *

*Waheguru*


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## BhagatSingh

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Veer Bhagat Singh Ji,*
> 
> *Gurbani says: *
> 
> *Guru Nanak is God Himself.*
> *Gurbani (WHICH IS MY GURU as well) is God.*
> *All is God.*
> *God is All.*
> 
> *If this thread was a nuisance, I AM SURE, Admin/Moderators would have got it stopped long before your approval mere veer.*
> 
> *me neech is exactly following Gurbani, and will keep doing so. *
> 
> *Waheguru*


Ok, let me add, we are all God, you, me  and everyone else.


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## BhagatSingh

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Veer Bhagat Singh Ji,*
> 
> *Gurbani says: *
> 
> *Guru Nanak is God Himself.*
> *Gurbani (WHICH IS MY GURU as well) is God.*
> *All is God.*
> *God is All.*
> 
> *If this thread was a nuisance, I AM SURE, Admin/Moderators would have got it stopped long before your approval mere veer.*
> 
> *me neech is exactly following Gurbani, and will keep doing so. *
> 
> *Waheguru*


You still havent answered my questions though, they werent meant to be rhetorical questions BTW.


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## simpy

*Question is answered mere veer, it is up to you, you want to accept it or not.*

*thanks*


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## BhagatSingh

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Question is answered mere veer, it is up to you, you want to accept it or not.*
> 
> *thanks*


I asked you what was the point of the thread. You still havent answered, so what is there for me to accept?


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## simpy

*i answered your question, veer Bhagat Singh Ji.*
*If you cannot read, it is not me neech's fault*

*Waheguru Rakha*


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## BhagatSingh

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *i answered your question, veer Bhagat Singh Ji.*
> *If you cannot read, it is not me neech's fault*
> 
> *Waheguru Rakha*



No u havent. I think u did not understand what I was saying.


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## simpy




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## BhagatSingh

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


>


I don't count that as an answer, its gotta be in words!


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## simpy




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## BhagatSingh

:advocate::advocate::advocate::advocate::advocate::advocate::advocate::advocate::advocate::}:


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## Sikh80

Beautiful thread and nice treatment to the questions of Bhagat singh ji.

keep it up.


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## simpy

*<> siqgur pRswid ] (657-16)*
*ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.*
*One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:*
*jb hm hoqy qb qU nwhI Ab qUhI mY nwhI ] (657-17, soriT, Bgq rivdws jI)*
*jab ham hotay tab too naahee ab toohee mai naahee.*
*When I am in my ego, then You are not with me. Now that You are with me, there is no egotism within me.*
*Anl Agm jYsy lhir mie EdiD jl kyvl jl mWhI ]1] (657-17, soriT, Bgq rivdws jI)*
*anal agam jaisay lahar ma-i odaDh jal kayval jal maaNhee. ||1||*
*The wind may raise up huge waves in the vast ocean, but they are just water in water. ||1||*
*mwDvy ikAw khIAY BRmu AYsw ] (657-18, soriT, Bgq rivdws jI)*
*maaDhvay ki-aa kahee-ai bharam aisaa.*
*O Lord, what can I say about such an illusion?*
*jYsw mwnIAY hoie n qYsw ]1] rhwau ] (657-18, soriT, Bgq rivdws jI)*
*jaisaa maanee-ai ho-ay na taisaa. ||1|| rahaa-o.*
*Things are not as they seem. ||1||Pause||*

*humbly say:*


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## BhagatSingh

Sikh80 said:


> Beautiful thread and nice treatment to the questions of Bhagat singh ji.
> 
> keep it up.


maybe you can show me where she answered my questions.


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## Sikh80

I would have if I had known.


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## simpy

jo iqsu BwvY soeI hoie ] (278-1, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
jo tis bhaavai so-ee ho-ay.
Whatever pleases Him, comes to pass.
nwnk dUjw Avru n koie ]7] (278-2, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
naanak doojaa avar na ko-ay. ||7||
O Nanak, there is no other at all. ||7||


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## simpy

eyko eyku eyku pCwnY ] (281-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
ayko ayk ayk pachhaanai.
One who recognizes the One and only Lord as One,
ieq auq kI Ehu soJI jwnY ] (281-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
it ut kee oh sojhee jaanai.
understands this world and the next.
nwm sMig ijs kw mnu mwinAw ] (281-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
naam sang jis kaa man maani-aa.
One whose mind accepts the Company of the Naam,
nwnk iqnih inrMjnu jwinAw ]3] (281-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
naanak tineh niranjan jaani-aa. ||3||
the Name of the Lord, O Nanak, knows the Immaculate Lord. ||3||


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## simpy

gur pRswid Awpn Awpu suJY ] (281-12, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
gur parsaad aapan aap sujhai.
By Guru's Grace, one understands himself;
iqs kI jwnhu iqRsnw buJY ] (281-12, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
tis kee jaanhu tarisnaa bujhai.
know that then, his thirst is quenched.


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## simpy

*jYsw sw qYsw idRstwieAw ] **(281-16, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**jaisaa saa taisaa daristaa-i-aa.
As God is, so does He appear;
**Apuny kwrj mih Awip smwieAw ] **(281-17, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**apunay kaaraj meh aap samaa-i-aa.
in His Own creation, He Himself is pervading.
*


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## simpy

*jb dyKau qb sBu ikCu mUlu ] **(281-17, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**jab daykh-a-u tab sabh kichh mool.
Wherever I look, there I see Him, at the root of all things.
**nwnk so sUKmu soeI AsQUlu ]5] **(281-18, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**naanak so sookham so-ee asthool. ||5||
O Nanak, He is the subtle, and He is also the manifest. ||5||
*


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## simpy

*Awpy Awip sgl mih Awip ] **(282-1, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**aapay aap sagal meh aap.
He Himself is All-in-Himself.*


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## simpy

*ry mn myry sdw hir jwip ] **(282-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**ray man mayray sadaa har jaap.
O my mind, meditate forever on the Lord.
**AibnwsI pRBu Awpy Awip ] **(282-11, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**abhinaasee parabh aapay aap.
The Imperishable Lord God is Himself All-in-all.
*


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## simpy

*ijau AMDkwr dIpk prgwsu ] **(282-17, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**ji-o anDhkaar deepak pargaas.
As the darkness is illuminated by the lamp,
**gur drsnu dyiK min hoie ibgwsu ] **(282-18, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**gur darsan daykh man ho-ay bigaas.
so does the mind blossom forth, beholding the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan.
*


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## simpy

*pwrbRhmu ijin scu kir jwqw ] **(283-15, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**paarbarahm jin sach kar jaataa.
One who recognizes the Supreme Lord God as True
**nwnk so jnu sic smwqw ]8]15] **(283-16, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**naanak so jan sach samaataa. ||8||15||
- O Nanak, that humble being is absorbed into the True One. ||8||15||
*


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## simpy

*siq purK sB mwih smwxI ] **(284-15, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**sat purakh sabh maahi samaanee.
The True Lord is permeating all.
*


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## Sikh80

The thread neds a better treatment .I am giving below extracts from some site.It would be useful.
****************************
*CONCEPT OF GURU IN SIKHISM: *
In Sikh religion the word 'Guru' is not denoted to its usual meaning such as a teacher or an expert or a guide or a human body, but this is composed of two words- GU and RU. GU means darkness and RU means Light i.e.Light that dispels all darkness is called JOT OR DIVINE LIGHT. When Impersonal God manifested His attributes in person, that person was called Guru Nanak:
'Jot rup har aap gur nanak kahayo.' (Swayas Bhattan- p.1408) 
Guru Nanak was thus the embodiment of Divine Light.
'In the true Guru (Nanak), He installed His Own Spirit, Through him, God revealed Himself.' (Asa di Var, pauri 6, page 466) 
Guru Nanak seated Bhai Lehna (later called Guru Angad) on his throne, placed five paise and a coco-nut before him, and then bowed to him declaring him as GURU ANGAD. When Guruship was conferred on Guru Angad, he too became the embodiment of Divine Light.
'Jot uha jugat sai, seh kaya pher paltiae.'(Sata Balwand, p-966) 'The Divine Light was the same, The Way and Mode were the same, The Master had merely changed the body.' (Translation of the above) 
The most important point to remember here is that the people bowed to Guru Angad ONLY when JOT was installed in him. No body bowed to him before the Guruship, which means the Sikhs did not bow to the human body (of Guru Angad) because human body was not Guru, but to the Divine Light which was passed on to that body by Guru Nanak.
http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1717


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## Sikh80

The same process of conferring the Guruship continued till the tenh Guru. Then the tenth Master, Guru Gobind Singh seated the Adi Granth (the Holy Scripture- the Divine Word) on the throne of Guru Nanak, placed five paise and a coco- nut before it and then bowed declaring it as the Last Guru for ever. When the Guruship was passed on, Guru Granth Sahib too became the embodiment of Divine Light. It should, therefore, be remembered very clearly that bowing before Guru Granth Sahib as Sikhs do, is not a bowing before a book, but it is a bowing before the Divine Light or JOT (Guru) which was passed on when the Guruship was conferred upon it.
In Sikh religion the word 'Guru' has been used in three inter-related aspects:
Firstly it is used for God, the All-Pervading Divine Spirit, the Divine Light:
'The Guru is Beneficent, the Sanctuary of peace, The Guru is the Light of three worlds, He is the Eternal Being, O Nanak, he who believeth in Him, attaineth peace.' (Slok Mohalla 1, p-137) 'The Guru is All-Powerful, The Guru is the Formless Lord, The Guru is the Highest, Fathomless and Limitless, Ineffable is His praise; what can a sayer say?' (Sri Rag Mohalla 5, p-52) 'The Guru is Infinite God Himself Nanak, meditate upon such a Guru day and night.' (Asa Mohalla 5, p-387)


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## Sikh80

Secondly the word 'Guru' is also used for Guru Nanak as he was the Embodiment of God's Light:
'Guru Nanak is the perfect Guru, With the true Guru I meditateth upon God.' (Ramkali Mohalla 4, p-882) 'Guru Nanak is the true Guru, The true Guru taketh me to God.' (Kanra Mohalla 4, p-1310) 'The Guru and God are one , Divine Master pervadeth everywhere.' (Sri Rag Mohalla 5, p-53) 
Thirdly the word 'Guru' is used for Gurbani, the Divine Word. Since Gurbani came direct from God, and as there is no difference between God and His order (Divine Word), Gurbani is Guru too:
'The Word is the Guru, And the Guru is the Word, The Guru's Word is full of life-giving Elixir, Whosoever shall obey, what the Word commandeth, Verily he shall get salvation.' (Nat Mohalla 4, p-982) 'The Word is the True Guru and True Guru is the Word, And the Word revealeth the path of salvation.' (Kanra Mohalla 4, p-1310) 
*DIVINE WORD CAME DIRECT FROM GOD:*
Guru Granth Sahib does not narrate the life story of Guru Nanak, but each and every word is dedicated to the Glory of the Almighty God only. It is not a reproduction of earlier religions, but the Divine Word (Gurbani) came to the Gurus direct from God. Guru Nanak stated that it was not his philosophy, it was not his understanding and it was not his thinking, but the Word was coming to him direct from God and he was simply delivering His message to the world. As he confirms:
'O Lalo, as comes the Divine Word from Lord to me, So do I narrate it.' (Tilang Mohalla 1, p-722) 'I have said what Thou commandeth me to say.' (Wadhans Mohalla 1,p-566) 
This was repeatedly confirmed and emphasized by all the Gurus in their Bani such as:
'From God springs ambrosial Gurbani The exalted Guru narrates and preaches the same to world.' (Majh Mohalla 3, p-125) 'This Word comes from Him, Who hath created the World.' (Mohalla 4, p-306) 'This Word that hath come from God, It dispelleth all woes and worries.' (Sorath Mohalla 5, p-628) 'I speak but the Will of the Lord, For, the Lord's devotee narrateth the Word of the Lord.'(Sorath Mohalla 5, p-629) 'Whatever the Lord hath instructed me, Hear, O my brother.' (Tilang Mohalla 9, p-727)


----------



## Sikh80

The tenth Master, Guru Gobind Singh established the same truth that it was God's Word that was being revealed through the Gurus:
'Whatever the Lord sayeth to me I say the same to the world.' (Guru Gobind Singh) 
The Janamsakhi (biography) reveals that Guru Nanak many times said to his minstrel Mardana, "Mardana, start playing the rebec, Gurbani (Divine Word) is coming." And the Divine Word was then recorded. That Divine Word is GURBANI- Guru Granth Sahib.
*AUTHENTICITY:*
Guru Granth Sahib was not written by the devotees after the Gurus had gone, but it was dictated and compiled by the Gurus themselves. Thus it is the Authentic Divine Scripture. No body is allowed to change even a comma or a period out of 1430 pages. The seventh Guru's son, Ram Rai, changed the meaning of only one verse to please the Emperor, Aurangzeb, upon which he was excommunicated for ever by his father (the seventh Guru), thereby establishing the fact that no one could ever change the God's Word, the Gurbani.
Max Arthur Macauliffe, an English writer, delivered a speech in Punjabi language at Akal Bunga, Amritsar in 1899, the translation of which is:
"There is another point to the merit of the Sikh religion that the founders of other religions in this world never wrote even one line with their own hands. You might have heard that there was a very famous Greek philosopher called Pythagoras who had many followers, but he never left behind anything written by him from which we could have known about the principles of his sect. After him came the second Greek philosopher named Socrates who was born in 500 B.C. He became a very famous religious leader who claimed that he was receiving Divine instructions from God within himself, which persuaded him to do good and prohibited from doing any evil deeds. But he too never left anything behind written by him which could have shed light on his philosophy and its principles. Whatever we know about him, has only come through the writings of his follower, Plato. Besides there came Mahatma Buddh in India and he never wrote anything with his hands. After that came Christ who did not write anything himself. His teachings are only known through Bible. However the Sikh Gurus acted quite opposite to all these religious leaders that they themselves dictated their message of Truth and compiled Guru Granth Sahib. In that respect the Sikh religion is far ahead than others." (Translation Sri Guru Granth Sahib- pothi 1,p-gaga, by Bhai Vir Singh)


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## Sikh80

*GURU GRANTH SAHIB BEGINS UNIQUELY:*
In Hindu mythology the word 'OM' always meant for God as monotheistic. Then they started interpreting it as more than one God. Guru Nanak put an integer '1' before it and a kar (a semi- circle) after it. Thus it becomes 'EK-OM-KAR' and by doing so, he sealed the position for ever meaning 'There is One and only One God'. Therefore Guru Granth Sahib uniquely begins with integer One ('1'). The One Absolute is the monotheistic conception of God and is represented by numerical symbol here. One God does not only mean numerically one but Unique without a second like Him.
Guru Granth Sahib begins with Mool-Mantar or the Preamble of Japji which is the Essence of the whole Guru Granth Sahib:
Ek-Onm-Kar Sat-Nam Karta-Purkh Nirbhao-Nirvair Akal-Murat Ajuni, Saibhang Gurparsad There is But One God He is the Eternal Truth The Creator, All-Pervading Divine Spirit Unfearful, Without hate and enmity Immortal Entity Unborn, Self-Existent Realized by His Own Grace (the Guru) 
The next verse is generally called Sach (True) Mantar:
Jap Aad Sach Jugad Sach Haibhi Sach Nanak Hosibhi Sach Meditate upon Who was True before the Creation Who was True in the beginning of Creation Who is True now, and O Nanak, Who shall be True for ever. 
Guru Arjan Dev had accomplished a task by authenticating the diverse compositions and prepared the Adi Granth for the benefit of his followers. Since the work had remained where it was left, Guru Gobind Singh included in it the Bani of Guru Tegh Bahadur and put the seal of Finality on it. Subsequently this finalized version of the Adi Granth was invested with the Guruship by Guru Gobind Singh.
Guru Granth Sahib is the only refuge for a man tossed about in the furious ocean of worldly existence. It helps a person to live by certain directives or moral codes which are necessary for the achievement of salvation.
Man is the epitome of God's creation. This human body is attained after transmigrating through various lower species. Guru Granth Sahib advocates the excellence and utility of human life because it is through human form that a person can attain final emancipation. Man has great capacity for conscious awareness which helps him reach the desired spiritual goal. Therefore, all teachings and exhortations for spiritual enhancement are addressed to man in Guru Granth Sahib. Man's material values are listed as false, 'koor':


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## Sikh80

"False are kings, false their subjects, false the whole world; False are mansions, false palaces, false those who dwell therein; False is gold, false sliver, false he who weareth them; False husbands, false wives, they pine away and become dust. Man who is false, loveth what is false, and forgetteth the Creator. With whom contact friendship? The whole world passeth away. False is sweetness, false honey, in falsehood shiploads are drowned- Nanak humbly asserteth- Except Thee, O God, everything is thoroughly false." (Asa di Var- Slok Mohalla 1, p-468) 
Guru Granth Sahib signifies the importance of Nam by identifying it with the Guru. Nam releases man from all his previous sins, sorrows, sufferings and cycle of birth and death. No rituals, no alms, no sacrifices, no fasts and no penances equal Nam.
Guru Granth Sahib initiates a disciple on the path of spiritual progress and guides him at the various stages of his journey to God. It is a ship that steers clear a devotee through the ocean of Maya (Materialism), thus, leading the human soul to its ultimate destination which is the Absolute Bliss.
"The fearful ocean of the world is dangerous and formidable; it hath no shore or limit, No boat, no raft, no pole, and no boatman; But the true Guru hath a vessel for the terrible ocean, and ferrieth over him on whom he looketh with favor." (Sri Rag Mohalla 1, p-59) 
Guru Granth Sahib is completely authentic and is preserved in its original form. It is a highly valuable possession which Sikhs have received from God through Guru Nanak and is held in supreme reverence by them.
FN-1:Three worlds- one world is whatever is on our plane, second one is whatever is above us, and the third one is whatever is below us.
FN-2:Lalo was Guru's disciple.
http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1717


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## Sikh80

If one is still curious one should refer to important sites Of sikhi. These are fair in number.I hope Bhagat ji, if you go thru. these you will find the answer.


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## simpy

> ****************************
> *CONCEPT OF GURU IN SIKHISM: *
> In Sikh religion the word 'Guru' is not denoted to its usual meaning such as a teacher or an expert or a guide or a human body, but this is composed of two words- GU and RU. GU means darkness and RU means Light i.e.Light that dispels all darkness is called JOT OR DIVINE LIGHT. When Impersonal God manifested His attributes in person, that person was called Guru Nanak:
> 'Jot rup har aap gur nanak kahayo.' (Swayas Bhattan- p.1408)
> Guru Nanak was thus the embodiment of Divine Light.
> 'In the true Guru (Nanak), He installed His Own Spirit, Through him, God revealed Himself.' (Asa di Var, pauri 6, page 466)


 
*thanks Sikh 80 Ji for your contribution.*

*The above translates exactly to the HEADING: Guru and God No Difference.*


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## simpy

*jb Awpn Awp Awip pwrbRhm ] **(290-19, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)*
*jab aapan aap aap paarbarahm.*
*When the Supreme Lord Himself was Himself All-in-all,*
*qb moh khw iksu hovq Brm ] **(290-19, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)*
*tab moh kahaa kis hovat bharam.*
*then where was emotional attachment, and who had doubts?*




humbly say


----------



## Archived_Member1

Sikh80 said:


> *GURU GRANTH SAHIB BEGINS UNIQUELY:*
> In Hindu mythology the word 'OM' always meant for God as monotheistic. Then they started interpreting it as more than one God. Guru Nanak put an integer '1' before it and a kar (a semi- circle) after it. Thus it becomes 'EK-OM-KAR' :




sorry, it's ek OANKAR, no "OM".  

(i would have put a smiley there, but you don't like them so i won't)


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## simpy

*Awpn Awp Awp hI Acrjw ] **(291-8, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)*
*aapan aap aap hee acharjaa.*
*He Himself, in and of Himself, is the most wonderful.*
*nwnk Awpn rUp Awp hI auprjw ]3] **(291-8, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)*
*naanak aapan roop aap hee uparjaa. ||3||*
*O Nanak, He Himself created His Own Form. ||3||*


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## simpy

*Awip kQY Awip sunnYhwru ] **(292-7, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**aap kathai aap sunnaihaar.
He Himself is the speaker, and He Himself is the listener.
**Awpih eyku Awip ibsQwru ] **(292-8, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**aapeh ayk aap bisthaar.
He Himself is the One, and He Himself is the many.
*


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## Sikh80

jasleen_kaur said:


> sorry, it's ek OANKAR, no "OM".
> 
> (i would have put a smiley there, but you don't like them so i won't)


 
U r right as always.
The exact is ONg.
check it with your best friend.


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## simpy

*Bhai Gurdas Ji's words:*

*juggrdI jb hovhy aulty jug ikAw hoie vrqwrw]*
*auTy iglwn jgq ivc vrqY pwp BRSt sMswrw]*
*vrnw vrn n BwvnI Kih Kih jln bWs AMgXwrw]*
*inµdw cwlY vyd kI smJn nih AigAwn gubwrw]*
*byd gRMQ gur h`t hY ijs lg Bvjl pwr auqwrw]*
*siqgur bwJ n buJIAY ijc`r Dry n gur Avqwrw]*
*gur prmySr iek hY s`cw Swh jgq vxjwrw]*
*cVy sUr imt jwie AMDwrw ]ñ÷]*


*During the down fall of an age, people setting aside the duties of the age bahave contrary to their nature.
The world gets engrossed in remorseful activities and sin and corruption prevail.
Different sections(castes) of society develop hatred for one another and finish themselves through squabbles as the bamboos, due to their mutual friction, producing fire burn themselves as well as others.
Condemnation of the knowledge starts and in the darkness of ignorance nothing remains visible.
From that knowledge of the Vedas which gets man across the world ocean even the knowledgeable people get away.
So long God does not descend on earth in the form of true Guru, no mystery can be understood.
The Guru and God are one; He is the true master and the whole world craves for Him.
He rises like sun and the darkness is dispelled.*

*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


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## simpy

*pUry gur kI pUrI dIiKAw ] **(293-5, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**pooray gur kee pooree deekhi-aa.
Perfect are the Teachings of the Perfect Guru.*
*ijsu min bsY iqsu swcu prIiKAw ] **(293-5, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
**jis man basai tis saach pareekhi-aa.
That person, within whose mind it abides, realizes the Truth.*


----------



## Sikh80

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *thanks Sikh 80 Ji for your contribution.*
> 
> *The above translates exactly to the HEADING: Guru and God No Difference.*


 

It is alright Surinder ji, In a way I have tried to be helpful. You should try to format your posts in such a fashion that these are read by all not by yourself.

Regards.


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## simpy

Sikh 80 said:
			
		

> It is alright Surinder ji, In a way I have tried to be helpful. You should try to format your posts in such a fashion that these are read by all not by yourself.


 

*Others are confirming that they can see it clear, dear Sikh 80 Ji. i recall moderators warning you for editing your posts. i think you should check your computer*

*Waheguru Rakha*


----------



## Sikh80

They told me something about youeself. Have'nt you recd.?


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## simpy

Sikh 80 said:
			
		

> They told me something about youeself. Have'nt you recd.?


 
*OK moderators " WHAT HAVE YOU TOLD SIKH 80 ABOUT ME???????"*


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## simpy

*OK this the one my son sent me( Bhai Gurdas Ji is talking about God and Guru):*

*hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY gur prmySr eyko jwxY]*
*hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY dUjw Bwau n AwxY]*
*hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Aaugx kIqy gux prvwxY]*
*hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY mMdw iksY n AwK vKwxY]*
*hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Awp Tgwey lokW BwxY]*
*hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY praupkwr krY rMg mwxY]*
*lau bwlI drgwh ivc mwx inmwxwmwx inmwxY]*
*gur pUrw gur Sbd is\wxY ]õ]*

*I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who accepts Guru and God as one.*
*I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who does not allow the sense of duality to enter in him.*
*I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who understands the evil done to him as good one.*
*I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who never speaks ill of anyone.*
*I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who is ready to suffer loss for the sake of others.*
*I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who enjoys doing altruistic activities.*
*Such a humble person understanding the Word of Guru, himself becomes the perfect Guru.*


*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


----------



## kaur-1

Sikh80 said:


> They told me something about youeself. Have'nt you recd.?



What a shame. Such a beautiful topic/thread on Gurbani Vichaar and what do we do - reduce it to silly squable.

heres a smiley showing my reaction. 

Surinder bhenji, please keep up the good work.


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## simpy

*kaur ji,*

*bhagta te sansareeaa mel kade na hoe...............*


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## kaur-1

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *  Antar Tere Nidhaan Hai.......... Then Nidhaan will tell what is right and what is wrong.............................*
> 
> *Waheguru Rakha*



I hope this is not going off topic Bhenji, but this reminds me of Gurbani shabad mp3 on my media player.

Mp3 link:
http://www.rajkaregakhalsa.net/audio/Kirtan/Bhai%20Taarbalbir%20Singh/Mann%20Mereya%20Antar%20Terei%20Nidhaan%20Hai.mp3
and
http://www.ikirtan.com/Various_Ragi_Jaatha's/Man Meria Antar Tere.mp3

Shabad link:
RajKaregaKhalsa.net: man mayri-aa antar tayrai niDhaan hai baahar vasat na bhaal


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## simpy

*thanks kaur ji, i have the sameone, guess what............. i was playing it when you were posting the link *

*what a coincedence...............*

*my daughter is whispering in my ears: great minds think alike *


----------



## Bir

*Lion is still Alive*

I have always been wondering whether Taksal's recently declared martyr chief  is alive or has attained saheedi.

We have met Baba Thakur singh ji  several times and know he won't tell lie all through for more than 20 yrs and for which he maintained his stand assertively till his Sachkhand Ghaman.

Though *Baba Jarnail singh* has been decalred martyr I still belive he is alive.
Baba ji's bachan can never go futile. I know when my brother who has 3 daughters and when one day babaji got impressed with his seva prayed for him in his house for a son. Same year he was blessed with a Son.

Recently got to see a video of Baba Thakur singh ji on taksal's website where he maintained his stand in a very humble manner.I have also heard and read that babaji himself had been saying that time will come when even from Taksal's own headquarter's Baba Jarnail singh would be declared "Shaheed" worldwide and everyone will say that Baba Thakur singh was lying.Only when the Lion arrive they will believe his words......

Moderator's note - Post 107 deleted, Bir ji, because it was a duplicate of this one.


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## Archived_Member1

kaur-1 said:


> What a shame. Such a beautiful topic/thread on Gurbani Vichaar and what do we do - reduce it to silly squable.
> 
> heres a smiley showing my reaction.
> 
> Surinder bhenji, please keep up the good work.




agreed 100%.

i'd like to request that sikh80 please stop with the thinly veiled insults and keep to the topic.


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## simpy




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## Archived_member2

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Surinder Jee!

Quote "Bhai Gurdas Ji: I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who accepts Guru and God as one."
In my view, this translation cannot be correct.
This would explain that they did not cut Bhai Gurdas Jee into four pieces because nobody accepted Guru and God as one.
Please read the available translations carefully before trusting and quoting those on Internet.


Balbir Singh


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## spnadmin

Exactly 12 hours after I logged off this morning, I am reading this thread and wondering whether there is a full moon tonight.  So everyone, what has been going on today?

Before I forget my manners. Hi!  Kaur-1 bhenji!!! And, Yes!  What is being said about Surinder ji? Because no one told me. No wonder here either. Let's not sweat the small stuff. Everyone's fonts look great. 

It would be a comfort for members,who look forward to a sturdy, serious discussion of Guru and God, if the thread were to return to the topic. And maybe even, if luck holds up, from the perspective of Gurmat. Those discussions are usually really good. 

Just my opinion :}{}{}:


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## simpy

Hey MODERATOR MANDLI JI,

I repeat myself:



> Originally Posted by *Sikh 80*
> _They told me something about youeself. Have'nt you recd.? _


 


*OK moderators " WHAT HAVE YOU TOLD SIKH 80 ABOUT ME???????"*

*he he*


----------



## Randip Singh

aad0002 said:


> Randip ji
> 
> What you point out is always a slender distinction in many world religions that say that God is Within Us. This idea will be turned around by some to say: God is Within Us; We are Within God; therefore, we are God. Which in the end leads to a kind of pantheism. The immanence and transcendence of God are erased. Next comes the argument that if we are God then there is more than one god. Proceeding to a kind of free-form polytheism. So I don't take your question lightly. It needs to be asked.


 
A drop of water falls into an ocean it becomes part of the ocean, but can it say it is the ocean?

I think a modern day way of looking at the concept of God is much like "The Force" >>> Star Waars fame


----------



## simpy

*Bani is our Dhan Dhan Guru Ji Sache Paatshah. And Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Amar Das Ji Sache Paatshah De Paavan Bachan(Stamp of this truth that Guru is same as Parmatma)panna #515*

vwhu vwhu bwxI inrMkwr hY iqsu jyvfu Avru n koie ] 
vaahu vaahu banee nirankaar hai tis jayvad avar na ko-ay. 
Waaho! Waaho! is the Bani, the Word, of the Formless Lord. There is no other as great as He is. 

vwhu vwhu Agm AQwhu hY vwhu vwhu scw soie ] 
vaahu vaahu agam athaahu hai vaahu vaahu sachaa so-ay. 
Waaho! Waaho! The Lord is unfathomable and inaccessible. Waaho! Waaho! He is the True One. 
vwhu vwhu vyprvwhu hY vwhu vwhu kry su hoie ] 
vaahu vaahu vayparvaahu hai vaahu vaahu karay so ho-ay. 
Waaho! Waaho! He is the self-existent Lord. Waaho! Waaho! As He wills, so it comes to pass. 
vwhu vwhu AMimRq nwmu hY gurmuiK pwvY koie ] 
vaahu vaahu amrit naam hai gurmukh paavai ko-ay. 
Waaho! Waaho! is the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, obtained by the Gurmukh. 
vwhu vwhu krmI
pweIAY Awip dieAw kir dyie ] 
vaahu vaahu karmee paa-ee-ai aap da-i-aa kar day-ay. 
Waaho! Waaho! This is realized by His Grace, as He Himself grants His Grace. 
nwnk vwhu vwhu gurmuiK pweIAY Anidnu nwmu leyie ]1] 
naanak vaahu vaahu gurmukh paa-ee-ai an-din naam la-ay-ay. ||1|| 
O Nanak, Waaho! Waaho! This is obtained by the Gurmukhs, who hold tight to the Naam, night and day. ||1||



*humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*

* humbly say*


----------



## simpy

*Dhur Ki Bani Aaee Tin Saglee Chint Mitaaee*


----------



## BhagatSingh

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Bani is our Dhan Dhan Guru Ji Sache Paatshah. And Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Amar Das Ji Sache Paatshah De Paavan Bachan(Stamp of this truth that Guru is same as Parmatma)panna #515*
> 
> vwhu vwhu bwxI inrMkwr hY iqsu jyvfu Avru n koie ]
> vaahu vaahu banee nirankaar hai tis jayvad avar na ko-ay.
> Waaho! Waaho! is the Bani, the Word, of the Formless Lord. There is no other as great as He is.
> 
> vwhu vwhu Agm AQwhu hY vwhu vwhu scw soie ]
> vaahu vaahu agam athaahu hai vaahu vaahu sachaa so-ay.
> Waaho! Waaho! The Lord is unfathomable and inaccessible. Waaho! Waaho! He is the True One.
> vwhu vwhu vyprvwhu hY vwhu vwhu kry su hoie ]
> vaahu vaahu vayparvaahu hai vaahu vaahu karay so ho-ay.
> Waaho! Waaho! He is the self-existent Lord. Waaho! Waaho! As He wills, so it comes to pass.
> vwhu vwhu AMimRq nwmu hY gurmuiK pwvY koie ]
> vaahu vaahu amrit naam hai gurmukh paavai ko-ay.
> Waaho! Waaho! is the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, obtained by the Gurmukh.
> vwhu vwhu krmI
> pweIAY Awip dieAw kir dyie ]
> vaahu vaahu karmee paa-ee-ai aap da-i-aa kar day-ay.
> Waaho! Waaho! This is realized by His Grace, as He Himself grants His Grace.
> nwnk vwhu vwhu gurmuiK pweIAY Anidnu nwmu leyie ]1]
> naanak vaahu vaahu gurmukh paa-ee-ai an-din naam la-ay-ay. ||1||
> O Nanak, Waaho! Waaho! This is obtained by the Gurmukhs, who hold tight to the Naam, night and day. ||1||
> 
> 
> 
> *humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*
> 
> * humbly say*


That does not prove that our Gurus are God in a special sense. Keep trying...


----------



## BhagatSingh

randip singh said:


> A drop of water falls into an ocean it becomes part of the ocean, but can it say it is the ocean?
> 
> I think a modern day way of looking at the concept of God is much like "The Force" >>> Star Waars fame


Agreed! Nanak was just a drop in the infinite ocean we call God. He wasn't the ocean himself.


----------



## BhagatSingh

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Veer Bhagat Ji I can see waht is going on at SPN.*
> 
> *SIKH 80 is the ADMIN*
> 
> *Bhagat Singh and Balbir are the Admin's ADVOCATES................*
> 
> 
> *Wah Ji Wah..............*
> 
> *Aman Ji sohni dukaan chalaa rahe ho .............*
> 
> *Jithay Namjap varge tuhade pehredaar ne................*
> 
> 
> *WOW*


OMG you are a How you say...  A BRAHM GYANI 

hahaha:rofl!!:

What are u talking about?? I ask you simple questions and get weird riddles for replies! When I ask you to prove sumtin you quote Gurbani, which has nothing to do with the issue. 

I am no ones advocate! Maybe you are someone's advocate...


----------



## BhagatSingh

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Oh so Gurbani irritates Bhagat Singh*
> 
> *Good very well- this proves i am talking to a FAKE BABA FOLLOWER or may be a FAKE BABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA... he he*
> 
> *thanks for revealing your identity*


Gurbani doesn't irritate me, but where it is used meaninglessly DOES! IF this means i am a fake baba follower than sure. But stop calling Guru NANAK a fake BABA!
And STOP insulting people! If u r a Sikh. :down:


----------



## simpy

*Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan are saying that Guru Is God and God is Guru............*

*and for me neech Guru Is Always Right.........*

*Slandrer of Guru is that Who insults Guru Ji by not believing What Guru Ji is saying*


*Waheguru Rakha*


----------



## BhagatSingh

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Slandrer of Guru is that Who insults Guru Ji by not believing What Guru Ji is saying*
> 
> 
> *Waheguru Rakha*


Agreed on this one!


----------



## simpy

*And Guru Ji is Saying God is Guru and Guru is God.................................*



*and neech Surinder believe in each and every word of Guru Ji....................*


----------



## BhagatSingh

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *And Guru Ji is Saying God is Guru and Guru is God.................................*
> 
> 
> 
> *and neech Surinder believe in each and every word of Guru Ji....................*


Now why would Guru Jis say that when they considered themselves to be nothing compared to God? :hmm:


----------



## simpy

*Nimana Ho ke rehnda hai Sant Mahapurkh...................*

*Apnee ustat nahee gandaa phirda*


----------



## simpy

*Hey MODERATOR MANDLI JI,*

*I repeat myself:*




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Sikh 80*
> _They told me something about youeself. Have'nt you recd.? _


 

*OK moderators " WHAT HAVE YOU TOLD SIKH 80 ABOUT ME???????"*


----------



## Astroboy

Surinder Ji,

Something for you: Gur Jaisa Nahin


----------



## simpy

*And for the rest of the crowd- nothing naamjap ji*


----------



## Astroboy

What we perceive, we conceive, Surinder Ji.

Regardless of our thoughts - the absolute still exists for all creatures - providing opportunities to experience life. 

In other words, what you express is also in HIS HUKAM - so how can it be wrong ?


----------



## simpy

*Ji naamjap Ji,*

*it is just an effort to spread the true Guru's true word................. humbly that effort.-which will help others to get out of duality...................*

*And This Too is Guru's Hukam--------*

*Aap Japay Awra Naam Japaavay...........*

*And naam is infinite- i hope at least you understand that................*

*i will be logging out for good.*

*i know a lot of people here hate me as i speak the truth and that is against their beliefs.- at least me leaving for good will make them a lot happy ...................*
*lots of people love me........... all who been talking to me can reach me- they know how-------------- *
*GOOD BUY ALL*


----------



## kaur-1

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Ji naamjap Ji,*
> 
> *it is just an effort to spread the true Guru's true word................. humbly that effort.-which will help others to get out of duality...................*
> 
> *And This Too is Guru's Hukam--------*
> 
> *Aap Japay Awra Naam Japaavay...........*
> 
> *And naam is infinite- i hope at least you understand that................*
> 
> *i will be logging out for good.*
> 
> *i know a lot of people here hate me as i speak the truth and that is against their beliefs.- at least me leaving for good will make them a lot happy ...................*
> *lots of people love me........... all who been talking to me can reach me- they know how-------------- *
> *GOOD BUY ALL*



I think you should stay and keep on posting. All of us are at different levels of spirituality. All at different steps on a ladder.


----------



## simpy

kaur-1 said:
			
		

> I think you should stay and keep on posting. All of us are at different levels of spirituality. All at different steps on a ladder.


 
*kaur ji, *

*thanks BUT NO. me neech is not of much use here. i can do much more productive work and not waste my time and energy here. Most important thing is that there is NO RULE here. no respect to Guru Ji.......... *
*no respect to genuine questions-i am seeing -yesterday Sikh80 claimed that moderaters have told him something about me- i asked who and what????? THREE TIMES-----no body addressed that issue---------------- not that i am afraid of something- But is this a right thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

*people are deleting posts for no reason, and posts those should be deleted are there. Moderators are disscussing member issues in Public...............*

*wrong place*

*once again- GOOD BUY....*

*and namjap ji, I came fast and leaving fast toooooooooooo....................*

*humbly say*


----------



## simpy

*And very happy to have my last post under GURU AND GOD -NO DIFFERENCE*


----------



## BhagatSingh

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Nimana Ho ke rehnda hai Sant Mahapurkh...................*
> 
> *Apnee ustat nahee gandaa phirda*


now where does any Guru say that?

even if thats true. Then why did Guru Nanak die along with the rest of them??


----------



## AmbarDhara

Guru and God are the same. This is mensioned in SGGS Ji and any other true saint will tell you the same thing.


----------



## BhagatSingh

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *kaur ji, *
> 
> *thanks BUT NO. me neech is not of much use here. i can do much more productive work and not waste my time and energy here. Most important thing is that there is NO RULE here. no respect to Guru Ji..........
> *


ok so we say the Gurus weren't God then there is no respect for them? :rofl!!:


Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *no respect to genuine questions
> *


Yes that's true. You didnt answer any of my questions.



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *once again- GOOD BUY....*


Goodbye.


----------



## BhagatSingh

namjap said:


> What we perceive, we conceive, Surinder Ji.
> 
> Regardless of our thoughts - the absolute still exists for all creatures - providing opportunities to experience life.
> 
> In other words, what you express is also in HIS HUKAM - so how can it be wrong ?


According to what you said rape is not wrong because people do it in HIS/HER hukam.


----------



## AmbarDhara

I believe Guru Nank Dev Ji is Nirankar himself, He passed the jot into Guru Angad Dev Ji and so on all the way to SGGS Ji. All Guru Jis are considered One Nirankaar(Jot).


----------



## BhagatSingh

AmbarDhara said:


> I believe Guru Nank Dev Ji is Nirankar himself, He passed the jot into Guru Angad Dev Ji and so on all the way to SGGS Ji. All Guru Jis are considered One Nirankaar(Jot).


What you believe does not change the truth. I thought Nirankar meant God?


----------



## BhagatSingh

AmbarDhara said:


> Guru and God are the same. This is mensioned in SGGS Ji and any other true saint will tell you the same thing.


Can you show me where it says in SGGS that Guru Nanak is God? What saints say doesn't matter. 
If Guru Nanak was God then how did he die?


----------



## Archived_Member1

BhagatSingh said:


> Can you show me where it says in SGGS that Guru Nanak is God? What saints say doesn't matter.
> If Guru Nanak was God then how did he die?




have you been reading this thread?  there are several posts that show quotes from SGGS saying Guru is God.

why do we insist on putting limits on God?  who are we to say what God can and cannot do?  and how do you know Guru Nanak Dev ji died?  moving from the physical body to another form is not necessarily death, is it?


----------



## BhagatSingh

jasleen_kaur said:


> have you been reading this thread? there are several posts that show quotes from SGGS saying Guru is God.
> 
> why do we insist on putting limits on God? who are we to say what God can and cannot do? and how do you know Guru Nanak Dev ji died? moving from the physical body to another form is not necessarily death, is it?


In fact, it is death. But moving to another form... are you suggesting Guru Nanak moved to Guru Angad's body etc?


----------



## Archived_Member1

BhagatSingh said:


> In fact, it is death. But moving to another form... are you suggesting Guru Nanak moved to Guru Angad's body etc?




isn't that the whole theory of Guru Gaddi?   God's jot was passed from one Guru to the next.  this is why we can call any of the gurus Nanak, right?


----------



## AmbarDhara

What is Jot?


----------



## BhagatSingh

jasleen_kaur said:


> Isn't that the whole theory of Guru Gaddi? God's jot was passed from one Guru to the next. this is why we can call any of the gurus Nanak, right?


1. So Guru Nanak was going through reincarnation, which stopped after Guru Gobind? Which means he wasn't liberated? Because when we are liberated we go beyond this cycle. This leads to the idea that this took Guru Nanak 10 births to finally be liberated...??
Then comes Guru Gobind Singh's so-called autobiography in Dasam Granth (now I dont think he wrote it but for those of you that think he did), he said he was sent by Akal Purakh to take birth again as Gobind Rai(formerly known as Dusht Duman) to get rid of the evil(or sumtin like that). This shows he wasn't Akal Purakh.

2. I personally thought sitting on Guru Gaddi meant you were a Guru not a God.
And that whole, Guru Nanak is God who came down to save people is hinduism/christianity not sikhism. It promotes idol worship as I can take a thali and start worshipping pictures of Guru Nanak(since he is God) rather than meditating on the TRUE NAAM. [Again that Dusht Duman to Gobind Rai rebirth ties in to the Hindu philosophy where Brahma(or anyone) goes to Vishnu(the sustainer) to save the earth and Vishnu incarnates as various creatures to do stuff. ]

3. Let's for a second assume that Gurus were God, they why would they tell us not to worship them, but to meditate on the One True Almighty? Why would they just not tell us they were God so we would just think about them? Because God has no form so thinking about him is quite a challenge. Trying to picture something abstract is next to impossible. Its like getting someone to picture a 4th dimensional world.

4. Personally, when I try to picture God my mind goes blank. When I meditate, I try to keep my mind in this state and try to think of nothing. It is quite hard for me( as I tend to think alot), but the results are quite refreshing.


----------



## AmbarDhara

> Let's for a second assume that Gurus were God, they why would they tell us not to worship them, but to meditate on the One True Almighty?


 
Because they are Almighty. Body is not Guru. Guru is Almighty and Almighty is Guru.


----------



## Archived_Member1

BhagatSingh said:


> 1. So Guru Nanak was going through reincarnation, which stopped after Guru Gobind? Which means he wasn't liberated? Because when we are liberated we go beyond this cycle. This leads to the idea that this took Guru Nanak 10 births to finally be liberated...??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i never said this.  passing jot (light of god) from one body to the next is not the same as reincarnation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then comes Guru Gobind Singh's so-called autobiography in Dasam Granth (now I dont think he wrote it but for those of you that think he did), he said he was sent by Akal Purakh to take birth again as Gobind Rai(formerly known as Dusht Duman) to get rid of the evil(or sumtin like that). This shows he wasn't Akal Purakh.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> how can you use something you don't believe as an argument?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. I personally thought sitting on Guru Gaddi meant you were a Guru not a God.
> And that whole, Guru Nanak is God who came down to save people is hinduism/christianity not sikhism. It promotes idol worship as I can take a thali and start worshipping pictures of Guru Nanak(since he is God) rather than meditating on the TRUE NAAM. [Again that Dusht Duman to Gobind Rai rebirth ties in to the Hindu philosophy where Brahma(or anyone) goes to Vishnu(the sustainer) to save the earth and Vishnu incarnates as various creatures to do stuff. ]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i don't think anyone is suggesting that we worship guru...  we're only supposed to worship god as "nirankar" or formless.  does that mean god can't take whatever form god wants?  i don't think so.  i don't like to put limits on god.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Personally, when I try to picture God my mind goes blank. When I meditate, I try to keep my mind in this state and try to think of nothing. It is quite hard for me( as I tend to think alot), but the results are quite refreshing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> this is buddhist style meditation.  i learned it in thailand and used to practice it for years, but it's kind of empty feeling to me.   but hey, if it works for you, that's great.
> 
> i have been taught to use naam simran (repetition of god's name - any of them) or mool mantar  for meditation, it works pretty well for me.
Click to expand...


----------



## BhagatSingh

AmbarDhara said:


> Because they are Almighty. Body is not Guru. Guru is Almighty and Almighty is Guru.


SO their soul is God? Yes SGGS says we all have God in us. Therefore I am God as well. Not my body but my soul.


----------



## AmbarDhara

I like this thread. This thread will make our belief strong in the One and Only One.

God and Guru no difference.


----------



## Archived_Member1

AmbarDhara said:


> What is Jot?



is this a rhetorical question? 

jot is light.  in the context of Guru, it's the "light of God".  it represents divinity.


----------



## Archived_Member1

BhagatSingh said:


> SO their soul is God? Yes SGGS says we all have God in us. Therefore I am God as well. Not my body but my soul.




  ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ ॥  sabh meh jot jot hai so-ay. 
Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light. 



  ਤਿਸ ਦੈ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥  tis dai chaanan sabh meh chaanan ho-ay. 
By this Illumination, that Light shines within all. 



  ਗੁਰ ਸਾਖੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥  gur saakhee jot pargat ho-ay. 
Through the Guru's Teachings, the Light shines forth.


----------



## AmbarDhara

Thankyou Jasleen Kaur, can i make a request, please. Canyou please give me link to a reliable website that has SGGS Ji's Translations. I will be grateful.

I want to post a lot of Gurbani(with Translations) for everybody's convenience. ThankYou


----------



## BhagatSingh

jasleen_kaur said:


> i never said this. passing jot (light of god) from one body to the next is not the same as reincarnation.


Then what is the difference? Isnt reincarnation the moving of a soul from one body to another?



jasleen_kaur said:


> how can you use something you don't believe as an argument?


Because I am open minded and I might start to believe it if it is convincing enough. 



jasleen_kaur said:


> i don't think anyone is suggesting that we worship guru... we're only supposed to worship god as "nirankar" or formless. does that mean god can't take whatever form god wants? i don't think so. i don't like to put limits on god.


God can take a billion forms but saying that the Gurus have God in them and we don't is unfair! We all do! Like gurbani says our minds are temples and place for God. This does not mean that we ARE God. SAme goes for the Gurus.
hehe you cannot put limits on God even if you want to. Infinity has no limits!



jasleen_kaur said:


> this is buddhist style meditation. i learned it in thailand and used to practice it for years, but it's kind of empty feeling to me. but hey, if it works for you, that's great.


I didn't know that acutally. I just try to picture God and nothing else. If nothing appears there(in mind) as God then nothing is what I meditate on and I guess it makes sense, since God is nirankar meanning without attributes, in other words nothing. He/She is nothing(no attributes) and He/She is everything(all attributes)! That is the most fascinating thing about God! 



jasleen_kaur said:


> i have been taught to use naam simran (repetition of god's name - any of them) or mool mantar for meditation, it works pretty well for me.


 
Yes I used to do that but it gets very distracting for me, I start to think more of other things.

BTW could anyone show me where SGGS says that repitition of God's name is worthwhile? And is it how many times to repeat or what????


----------



## AmbarDhara

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:
			
		

> guru prmysru eyko jwxu ] (864-9, goNf, mÚ 5)
> gur parmaysar ayko jaan.
> Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One.
> jo iqsu BwvY so prvwxu ]1] rhwau ] (864-9, goNf, mÚ 5)
> jo tis bhaavai so parvaan. ||1|| rahaa-o.
> Whatever pleases Him is acceptable and approved. ||1||Pause||


 
SGGS Ji is great.


----------



## BhagatSingh

jasleen_kaur said:


> ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ ॥ sabh meh jot jot hai so-ay.
> Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light.
> 
> 
> 
> ਤਿਸ ਦੈ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ tis dai chaanan sabh meh chaanan ho-ay.
> By this Illumination, that Light shines within all.
> 
> 
> 
> ਗੁਰ ਸਾਖੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ gur saakhee jot pargat ho-ay.
> Through the Guru's Teachings, the Light shines forth.


So ur saying everyone's got God and not the Gurus in a special case? 
So we got this cleared up.Good. This is what I kept saying to Surinder Ji and she kept taking it as an insult and started insulting me back!


----------



## BhagatSingh

AmbarDhara said:


> I like this thread. This thread will make our belief strong in the One and Only One.


Agreed!


----------



## AmbarDhara

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:
			
		

> *Sabh kich Ghar men Bahar Naahi............. Bahar Tole Jo Bharam Bhulaaeen*


I dont see Surinder kaur insulting you Bhagat, I think you are just prejudice, because she speaks what SGGS Ji is saying.


----------



## BhagatSingh

AmbarDhara said:


> *I dont see Surinder kaur insulting you Bhagat, I think you are just prejudice, because she speaks what SGGS Ji is saying.*


Not in that post she wasnt. YOu dont know the half of it! She called me Fake Baba Follower, pakhandee, and I forgot what else. Read everything she has said! She even insulted me in other posts! All for saying if Guru has God then so do we! Going with the concept ALL is God.


----------



## AmbarDhara

This is a Gurbani Vichar Section. Gurbani should be contemplated here. If someone thinks opposite to Gurbani, there I see more Sections like Hard Talk or Interfaith Talk kind.


----------



## AmbarDhara

I read her saying that All is God- so everybody included, infact her statements show that everything is God, not just humans. 

I am afraid you have read her wrong.


----------



## BhagatSingh

AmbarDhara said:


> I dont see Surinder kaur insulting you Bhagat, I think you are just prejudice, because she speaks what SGGS Ji is saying.


I think you all think I am prejudiced, therefore you dont give me contructive answers and start insulting me. Not good for Sikhs!
I thank JAsleen Kaur for having a mature discussion with me!


----------



## Sardara123

> Are we saying the actual Guru's were God?


 
Guru Granth says YES.


----------



## BhagatSingh

Sardara123 said:


> Guru Granth says YES.


It also says there is God's light in all. So can we ignore the fact that we are just like the Gurus as we also have the same light they did?


----------



## Archived_Member1

AmbarDhara said:


> Thankyou Jasleen Kaur, can i make a request, please. Canyou please give me link to a reliable website that has SGGS Ji's Translations. I will be grateful.
> 
> I want to post a lot of Gurbani(with Translations) for everybody's convenience. ThankYou





i use www.srigranth.org, but some people here don't agree with all of their translations.  

here's another one: Siri Guru Granth Sahib -Gurmukhi to English Translation and Phonetic Transliteration.

and another:  SikhiToTheMAX - Enabling Gurmat Knowledge

and one more:  Search Gurbani: Gurbani Research Website


----------



## Archived_Member1

BhagatSingh said:


> So ur saying everyone's got God and not the Gurus in a special case?
> So we got this cleared up.Good. This is what I kept saying to Surinder Ji and she kept taking it as an insult and started insulting me back!




i think i'd phrase it differently.  i'd say that while God is in everyone, most of us are not aware of it, cannot "access" it (for lack of a better word).  we're bogged down with maya, which makes it difficult to see God.

the Gurus didn't have this problem.    one might call them more highly evolved than us.  

there are many stages of spiritual development.  most of us are at the bottom level.  Gurus were at the highest level.  there's a lot of rungs on the ladder between us and them.  

but yes, ultimately, sabh gobind hai, sabh gobind hai, [SIZE=-1]gobind bin nahee koee.  
god is everything, god is everything, without god, there is nothing. [/SIZE]


----------



## BhagatSingh

jasleen_kaur said:


> i think i'd phrase it differently. i'd say that while God is in everyone, most of us are not aware of it, cannot "access" it (for lack of a better word). we're bogged down with maya, which makes it difficult to see God.
> 
> the Gurus didn't have this problem.  one might call them more highly evolved than us.
> 
> there are many stages of spiritual development. most of us are at the bottom level. Gurus were at the highest level. there's a lot of rungs on the ladder between us and them.
> 
> but yes, ultimately, sabh gobind hai, sabh gobind hai, [SIZE=-1]gobind bin nahee koee. [/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]god is everything, god is everything, without god, there is nothing. [/SIZE]


Very well said Jasleen Kaur JI!! I think your reply should end the thread right here, right now! even though alot of my questions went unanswered but I will put up another thread for that.:hmm:


----------



## BhagatSingh

AmbarDhara said:


> I read her saying that All is God- so everybody included, infact her statements show that everything is God, not just humans.
> 
> I am afraid you have read her wrong.


No she was clearly arguing with me for saying if Gurus were God then so are we, which I got from her own statement "ALL is GOD".

 But Jasleen JI has put my thoughts in great words!


----------



## AmbarDhara

Well I disagree with you and for me Jasleen Kaur sounds exactly like the thread starter. Exactly the same. 

So God is Guru and Guru is God.


----------



## AmbarDhara

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:
			
		

> guru prmysru eyku hY sB mih rihAw smwie ] (53-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
> gur parmaysar ayk hai sabh meh rahi-aa samaa-ay.
> The Guru and the Transcendent Lord are one and the same, pervading and permeating amongst all.
> ijn kau pUrib iliKAw syeI nwmu iDAwie ] (53-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
> jin ka-o poorab likhi-aa say-ee naam Dhi-aa-ay.
> Those who have such pre-ordained destiny, meditate on the Naam.
> nwnk gur srxwgqI mrY n AwvY jwie ]4]30]100] (53-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
> naanak gur sarnaagatee marai na aavai jaa-ay. ||4||30||100||
> Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||


 
According to SGGS Ji, there is no difference between Guru and God.


----------



## AmbarDhara

Bhagat Singh said:
			
		

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Surinder Kaur Cheema*
> 
> 
> _*Nimana Ho ke rehnda hai Sant Mahapurkh...................*_
> 
> _*Apnee ustat nahee gandaa phirda*_
> 
> now where does any Guru say that?
> 
> even if thats true. Then why did Guru Nanak die along with the rest of them??


 
SGGS Ji talks about term-Nimana a very many times. One major teaching in Gurmat is that one has to be humble. Guru calls Himself a neech, kiram jant. and all that. 

neechan andar neech jaat neechi hu at neech.


----------



## BhagatSingh

AmbarDhara said:


> Well I disagree with you and for me Jasleen Kaur sounds exactly like the thread starter. Exactly the same.
> 
> So God is Guru and Guru is God.


So u agree with one person and disagree with the other when both have concluded the same thing? That is a contradiction. 
BTW I would say Jasleen Kaur JI's reply is not exactly like the thread starter. 

God is Guru, God is Human, God is <insert person, place or thing here>, God is ALL! ALL is GOD!


----------



## BhagatSingh

AmbarDhara said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Surinder Kaur Cheema*
> _guru prmysru eyku hY sB mih rihAw smwie ] (53-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
> gur parmaysar ayk hai sabh meh rahi-aa samaa-ay.
> The Guru and the Transcendent Lord are one and the same, pervading and permeating amongst all.
> ijn kau pUrib iliKAw syeI nwmu iDAwie ] (53-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
> jin ka-o poorab likhi-aa say-ee naam Dhi-aa-ay.
> Those who have such pre-ordained destiny, meditate on the Naam.
> nwnk gur srxwgqI mrY n AwvY jwie ]4]30]100] (53-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
> naanak gur sarnaagatee marai na aavai jaa-ay. ||4||30||100||
> Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||_
> 
> According to SGGS Ji, there is no difference between Guru and God.


 
Nanak seeks the sanctuary of the Guru? Why would Guru Nanak seek his own sanctuary? Here Guru is another word used for God. That's why in the beginning it says Guru = God, Guru meaning teacher. So the whole thing means, that the God is a teacher whose santuary Guru Nanak seeks. That's what I make out of it. :{-


----------



## BhagatSingh

AmbarDhara said:


> SGGS Ji talks about term-Nimana a very many times. One major teaching in Gurmat is that one has to be humble. Guru calls Himself a neech, kiram jant. and all that.
> 
> neechan andar neech jaat neechi hu at neech.


 
Does Guru Nanak ever call God a neech jaat? NO
He calls himself a neech jaat because compared to God he is. Guru Nanak considers himself to be the servant of the LORD. Need I say more?


----------



## AmbarDhara

Bhagat Singh said:
			
		

> He calls himself a neech jaat because compared to God he is.


 
Bhagat this is all that is the difference. Your statement shows to me that I need not to bother anymore what you say.


So Surinder Kaur Cheema was perfectly right all the way.


----------



## AmbarDhara

Word was true, is true and will always be true.



			
				Surinder Kaur Cheema said:
			
		

> guru prmysru eyku hY sB mih rihAw smwie ] (53-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
> gur parmaysar ayk hai sabh meh rahi-aa samaa-ay.
> The Guru and the Transcendent Lord are one and the same, pervading and permeating amongst all.
> ijn kau pUrib iliKAw syeI nwmu iDAwie ] (53-5, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
> jin ka-o poorab likhi-aa say-ee naam Dhi-aa-ay.
> Those who have such pre-ordained destiny, meditate on the Naam.
> nwnk gur srxwgqI mrY n AwvY jwie ]4]30]100] (53-6, isrIrwgu, mÚ 5)
> naanak gur sarnaagatee marai na aavai jaa-ay. ||4||30||100||
> Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||


gur parmeshwar eko jaane


----------



## AmbarDhara

Sant ki Ninda Nankaa bahur bahur avtaar


----------



## Astroboy

jasleen_kaur said:


> i think i'd phrase it differently. i'd say that while God is in everyone, most of us are not aware of it, cannot "access" it (for lack of a better word). we're bogged down with maya, which makes it difficult to see God.
> 
> the Gurus didn't have this problem.  one might call them more highly evolved than us.
> 
> there are many stages of spiritual development. most of us are at the bottom level. Gurus were at the highest level. there's a lot of rungs on the ladder between us and them.
> 
> but yes, ultimately, sabh gobind hai, sabh gobind hai, [SIZE=-1]gobind bin nahee koee. [/SIZE]
> [SIZE=-1]god is everything, god is everything, without god, there is nothing. [/SIZE]


 

Good going, girl......

Excellent answer.


----------



## AmbarDhara

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:
			
		

> nwnk dUjw Avru n koie ]7] (278-2, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)
> naanak doojaa avar na ko-ay. ||7||
> O Nanak, there is no other at all. ||7||


 
One permeating in all, among all.


----------



## AmbarDhara

SGGS Ji says

jis piarey sion nehu tis aagai mar Chaliai dhrig jiwan sansar taan ke paachhai jiwana


----------



## AmbarDhara

*jab ham ayko ayk kar jaani-aa.*​


*When I realize that there is One, and only One Lord,*​



*tab logah kaahay dukh maani-aa. *

*why then should the people be upset?*​



*ham aptah apunee pat kho-ee.*

*I am dishonored; I have lost my honor.*​



*hamrai khoj parahu mat ko-ee. *

*No one should follow in my footsteps.*​




*ham manday manday man maahee.*

*I am bad, and bad in my mind as well.*​




*saajh paat kaahoo si-o naahee. *

*I have no partnership with anyone.*​



*pat apat taa kee nahee laaj.*

*I have no shame about honor or dishonor.*​



*tab jaanhugay jab ughraigo paaj. *

*But you shall know, when your own false covering is laid bare.*​


----------



## Sardara123

bwxI pihlW qoN hI gurU sI[
gurU nwnk dyv jI ny aupdyS kIqw bwxI dvwrw[
auh joq gurU AMgd dyv jI ivc AweI[ aupdyS bwxI dvwrw huMdw irhw[
qIjI pwqSwhI sRI gurU Amrdws jI g`dI qy ibrwjy qy auvyN aupdyS huMdw irhw[ ...
iPr gurU gRMQ swihb g`dI qy ibrwjmwn hoey, aupdyS bwxI dvwrw ho irhw hY[
gurmuKW vwsqy auhI gurU jI bYTy bwxI dvwrw aupdyS kr rhy hn[
mUrK leI &rk hY, igAwnI leI prq`K gurU hY bwxI[
gurU gRMQ swihb jI g`dI pr hYN, aupdyS bwxI dvwrw hY[
gurmuKW leI koeI &rk nhIN hY[
&rk hmwrI idRStI myN hY, idRStI p`kI krnI hY[ 



Ambar Dhara Ji, I traced this above paragraph from another thread on SPN. Does it say the same thing that Guru God Bani all is/was THE SAME from the Primal Begining? I think it DOES. Please Comment.

This thread is providing a solid proof that shabad never dies.
These are the exact words i read in Surinder's posts that GURU IS NOT BODY. GURU IS JOT. AND JOT IS GURU as JOT IS GOD.

Guru and God not different.


----------



## Sardara123

Guru Granth:​

goNf mhlw 5 ]
gurU gurU guru kir mn mor ]
gurU ibnw mY nwhI hor ]
gur kI tyk rhhu idnu rwiq ]
jw kI koie n mytY dwiq ]1]
*guru prmysru eyko jwxu ]
*jo iqsu BwvY so prvwxu ]1] rhwau ]
gur crxI jw kw mnu lwgY ]
dUKu drdu BRmu qw kw BwgY ]
gur kI syvw pwey mwnu ]
gur aUpir sdw kurbwnu ]2]
gur kw drsnu dyiK inhwl ]
gur ky syvk kI pUrn Gwl ]
gur ky syvk kau duKu n ibAwpY ]
gur kw syvku dh idis jwpY ]3]
gur kI mihmw kQnu n jwie ]
pwrbRhmu guru rihAw smwie ]
khu nwnk jw ky pUry Bwg ]
gur crxI qw kw mnu lwg ]4]6]8]​Bhai Gurdas:​ 

sbd suriq imil swDsMig gurmuiK duK suK smkir swDy]
haumY durmiq prhrI gurmiq siqgur purKu AwrwDy]
isv skqI no lµiG kY gurmuiK suK Plu shj smwDy]
*guru prmysru eyku jwix dUjw Bwau imtwie aupwDy]
*jMmx mrxhu bwhry Ajrwvir imil Agm AgwDy]
Aws n qRws audws Gir hrK sog ivhu AMimRq KwDy]
mhw AswD swDsMg swDy ]ó]
​
 
 
​​


----------



## AmbarDhara

Sardara123 said:


> bwxI pihlW qoN hI gurU sI[
> gurU nwnk dyv jI ny aupdyS kIqw bwxI dvwrw[
> auh joq gurU AMgd dyv jI ivc AweI[ aupdyS bwxI dvwrw huMdw irhw[
> qIjI pwqSwhI sRI gurU Amrdws jI g`dI qy ibrwjy qy auvyN aupdyS huMdw irhw[ ...
> iPr gurU gRMQ swihb g`dI qy ibrwjmwn hoey, aupdyS bwxI dvwrw ho irhw hY[
> gurmuKW vwsqy auhI gurU jI bYTy bwxI dvwrw aupdyS kr rhy hn[
> mUrK leI &rk hY, igAwnI leI prq`K gurU hY bwxI[
> gurU gRMQ swihb jI g`dI pr hYN, aupdyS bwxI dvwrw hY[
> gurmuKW leI koeI &rk nhIN hY[
> &rk hmwrI idRStI myN hY, idRStI p`kI krnI hY[
> 
> 
> 
> Ambar Dhara Ji, I traced this above paragraph from another thread on SPN. Does it say the same thing that Guru God Bani all is/was THE SAME from the Primal Begining? I think it DOES. Please Comment.
> 
> This thread is providing a solid proof that shabad never dies.
> These are the exact words i read in Surinder's posts that GURU IS NOT BODY. GURU IS JOT. AND JOT IS GURU as JOT IS GOD.
> 
> Guru and God not different.


 
whosoever wrote this made made this thread like Ratan Jawahar Manik. The thread starter said- IS, this rachna said- FROM THE PRIMAL BEGINING. 

So I say
GURU IS/WAS/WILL BE GOD and GOD IS/WAS/WILL BE GURU
GURU AND GOD NO DIFFERENCE, IT NEVER WAS, IT NEVER WILL BE.


----------



## BhagatSingh

Sardara123 said:


> bwxI pihlW qoN hI gurU sI[
> gurU nwnk dyv jI ny aupdyS kIqw bwxI dvwrw[
> auh joq gurU AMgd dyv jI ivc AweI[ aupdyS bwxI dvwrw huMdw irhw[
> qIjI pwqSwhI sRI gurU Amrdws jI g`dI qy ibrwjy qy auvyN aupdyS huMdw irhw[ ...
> iPr gurU gRMQ swihb g`dI qy ibrwjmwn hoey, aupdyS bwxI dvwrw ho irhw hY[
> gurmuKW vwsqy auhI gurU jI bYTy bwxI dvwrw aupdyS kr rhy hn[
> mUrK leI &rk hY, igAwnI leI prq`K gurU hY bwxI[
> gurU gRMQ swihb jI g`dI pr hYN, aupdyS bwxI dvwrw hY[
> gurmuKW leI koeI &rk nhIN hY[
> &rk hmwrI idRStI myN hY, idRStI p`kI krnI hY[
> 
> 
> 
> Ambar Dhara Ji, I traced this above paragraph from another thread on SPN. Does it say the same thing that Guru God Bani all is/was THE SAME from the Primal Begining? I think it DOES. Please Comment.
> 
> This thread is providing a solid proof that shabad never dies.
> These are the exact words i read in Surinder's posts that GURU IS NOT BODY. GURU IS JOT. AND JOT IS GURU as JOT IS GOD.
> 
> Guru and God not different.



So Guru is jot? and jot is Guru? and Jot is God? ok. So what are we then??


----------



## Amarpal

Dear Khalsa Ji,

'The Sat' is Nirakaar, Guru is Akaar. It is very clear from this that Guru cannot be 'The Sat' (God).

Assuming Guru to be God is not the way of Sikhs; Sikhi does not preaches it. It is the accepted way of ancient religions, our Guru Sahibs have never considered any Akaar (form or bodied entity) to be The Sat'.

This truth is self evident, no Akaar can be omnipresent which 'The Sat' is.

If Guru is equated with 'The Sat' them worship of beings and dieties will be justified. This is the cultural attributes of followers of ancient religions. If the followers of Sikh religion start accepting this thier ways will become similar to those of the followers of ancient religion and finally they will get dissolve in thier mass.

Let us not drift away from Sikhi. Guru is not 'The Sat' (God).

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh


----------



## kaur-1

This is how I view Guru ji.
Q & A: Does It Make Sense That Sikhs Worship 10 Gurus Like Gods? - DiscoverSikhi.Com


----------



## Sikh80

Amar Pal ji's post is really valuable for all those who do not understand Sikhi properly.


----------



## Archived_Member1

Amarpal said:


> Dear Khalsa Ji,
> 
> 'The Sat' is Nirakaar, Guru is Akaar. It is very clear from this that Guru cannot be 'The Sat' (God).
> 
> Assuming Guru to be God is not the way of Sikhs; Sikhi does not preaches it. It is the accepted way of ancient religions, our Guru Sahibs have never considered any Akaar (form or bodied entity) to be The Sat'.
> 
> This truth is self evident, no Akaar can be omnipresent which 'The Sat' is.
> 
> If Guru is equated with 'The Sat' them worship of beings and dieties will be justified. This is the cultural attributes of followers of ancient religions. If the followers of Sikh religion start accepting this thier ways will become similar to those of the followers of ancient religion and finally they will get dissolve in thier mass.
> 
> Let us not drift away from Sikhi. Guru is not 'The Sat' (God).
> 
> With love and respect for all.
> 
> Amarpal Singh




can you please read through this thread and explain the many shabads which say that guru and god are one?  also, please use gurbani to support your statements so that we may better understand them.

thanks.


----------



## spnadmin

jasleen_kaur said:


> can you please read through this thread and explain the many shabads which say that guru and god are one?  also, please use gurbani to support your statements so that we may better understand them.
> 
> thanks.



Jasleen ji, 

It would be very gracious of amarpal ji to take up your suggestion. I share his concern --  that it is possible to understand the Divine that is within us in a way that leads to what amarpal calls practices of "ancient religions" and that I fear is polytheism, or worship of many gods. (you know that, no offense)

Many thanks for your comments because they lead the thread in the direction of a constructive discussion about Gurmat.


----------



## ekmusafir_ajnabi

Amarpal said:


> Dear Khalsa Ji,
> 
> 'The Sat' is Nirakaar, Guru is Akaar. It is very clear from this that Guru cannot be 'The Sat' (God).
> 
> Assuming Guru to be God is not the way of Sikhs; Sikhi does not preaches it. It is the accepted way of ancient religions, our Guru Sahibs have never considered any Akaar (form or bodied entity) to be The Sat'.
> 
> This truth is self evident, no Akaar can be omnipresent which 'The Sat' is.
> 
> If Guru is equated with 'The Sat' them worship of beings and dieties will be justified. This is the cultural attributes of followers of ancient religions. If the followers of Sikh religion start accepting this thier ways will become similar to those of the followers of ancient religion and finally they will get dissolve in thier mass.
> 
> Let us not drift away from Sikhi. Guru is not 'The Sat' (God).
> 
> With love and respect for all.
> 
> Amarpal Singh


 
Amarpal Singh ji,

I am rather surprised to note your above comments.

Anand Sahib

siqgurU ibnw hor kcI hY bwxI ] 
bwxI q kcI siqgurU bwJhu hor kcI bwxI ] 
khdy kcy sxdy kcy kcØI AwiK vKwxI ] 
hir hir inq krih rsnw kihAw kCU n jwxI ] 
icqu ijn kw ihir lieAw mwieAw bolin pey rvwxI ] 
khY nwnku siqgurU bwJhu hor kcI bwxI ]24] 

Please explain, if our Gurus were not "Sat" then the Bani we have becomes Kachi Bani.

To explain whether our Gurus are Gods or not is not a simple task especially when one is addressing people with unequal level of intellect and/or Spiritual growth. Moreover the translations that one is relying upon are untrustworthy. 

The answer to the debate lies in "Sochey soch na hoveyee" one needs to experience it. The discussion here is in contradiction to this verse. Do not think that is beyond ones thinking.(I am aware there is another more popular meaning to this verse but this is equally applicable and valid)

The word "Guru" has been used to have several meanings in SGGS. From different stages of spirituality you will have a different sence of feeling of Guru. From the level of discussion in this forum, the part that we can visualise, Our Gurus were not Gods but from the part that is beyond our understanding there lies an inseperable link direct with God. "Ehvad oochay hovey soay, Tis OOchey ko janey soay" One needs to experience this.

Gurus have laid no claims to be Gods, it is our misunderstanding and misinterpretation of Gurus poetry/Bani. One can assume what one likes due to ones understanding, whether Gurus were Gods or not has no bearing on us. Only the teachings of our Gurus is of significance.

Kind regards to all


----------



## BhagatSingh

ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> Amarpal Singh ji,
> 
> I am rather surprised to note your above comments.
> 
> Anand Sahib
> 
> siqgurU ibnw hor kcI hY bwxI ]
> bwxI q kcI siqgurU bwJhu hor kcI bwxI ]
> khdy kcy sxdy kcy kcØI AwiK vKwxI ]
> hir hir inq krih rsnw kihAw kCU n jwxI ]
> icqu ijn kw ihir lieAw mwieAw bolin pey rvwxI ]
> khY nwnku siqgurU bwJhu hor kcI bwxI ]24]
> 
> Please explain, if our Gurus were not "Sat" then the Bani we have becomes Kachi Bani.


What do u mean by pakki bani and kachi bani? 
And if God doesn't write bani, is it Kachi?
Well, it is God who writes everything! From the Bible, Gita, quran to SGGS to Twinkle Twinkle Little Star! :}{}{}: The fact that Bible, Gita and Quran have absurdities in them is all part of His/Her play! 


ekmusafir_ajnabi said:


> To explain whether our Gurus are Gods or not is not a simple task especially when one is addressing people with unequal level of intellect and/or Spiritual growth. Moreover the translations that one is relying upon are untrustworthy.
> 
> The answer to the debate lies in "Sochey soch na hoveyee" one needs to experience it. The discussion here is in contradiction to this verse. Do not think that is beyond ones thinking.(I am aware there is another more popular meaning to this verse but this is equally applicable and valid)
> 
> The word "Guru" has been used to have several meanings in SGGS. From different stages of spirituality you will have a different sence of feeling of Guru. From the level of discussion in this forum, the part that we can visualise, Our Gurus were not Gods but from the part that is beyond our understanding there lies an inseperable link direct with God. "Ehvad oochay hovey soay, Tis OOchey ko janey soay" One needs to experience this.
> 
> Gurus have laid no claims to be Gods, it is our misunderstanding and misinterpretation of Gurus poetry/Bani. One can assume what one likes due to ones understanding, whether Gurus were Gods or not has no bearing on us. Only the teachings of our Gurus is of significance.
> 
> Kind regards to all


Agreed!!


----------



## Sikh80

I am in full agreement with this.Any one who takes birth and dies physically cannot be the part of eternal SAT. We may call him GOD in our eulogisation. But there is a difference between the fact and eulogisation. Guru is a channel for us to meet the LORD. Now that channel is through the sabad guru i.e Guru Granth sahib.


----------



## BhagatSingh

Sikh80 said:


> I am in full agreement with this.Any one who takes birth and dies physically cannot be the part of eternal SAT. We may call him GOD in our eulogisation. But there is a difference between the fact and eulogisation. Guru is a channel for us to meet the LORD. Now that channel is through the sabad guru i.e Guru Granth sahib.


You mean they can be part of the Sat but cannot BE the Sat!?


----------



## Sikh80

*A simple breakdown of his teaching is:*

There is only one God.
We should worship and pray to the one God and no-one else.
Work hard and help others.
Be honest
Everyone is equal in the eyes of God, there is no rich, poor, male, female, black nor white. The only difference between people is in their actions.
Be kind to all; birds, animals and people.
Fear nothing, pray for the good of all.
Be simple and honest in your daily life.
_Before he died_, Nanak told his most trusted follower, Lehna, that he must be the next guru. Lehna was given the name Guru Angad. 

Guru Nanak


----------



## Archived_Member1

Sikh80 said:


> I am in full agreement with this.Any one who takes birth and dies physically cannot be the part of eternal SAT. quote]
> 
> 
> there is so much gurbani to refute this idea of yours that i don't know where to begin.
> 
> most of it has already been posted in this thread, however, you seem to think that ALL of it is misinterpreted by everyone here.
> 
> i request that you please read sukhmani sahib.  not only is it a beautiful read, it is soothing, and will also help you to understand that saint, guru, and bramgiani are all GOD.


----------



## Sikh80

Metaphorically, yes they are same. All cannot be god.

GOd was one and is always One and shall be so. It is called Saibhang. The self-existent. He is capable of creating HIMself. PLease stop advising me. Keep something for yourself.
You need much more than we need.


----------



## Archived_Member1

Sikh80 said:


> Metaphorically, yes they are same. All cannot be god.



why not?  how do you know?  as Japji Sahib reminds us, only God knows his ownself.  why are you so eager to set man-made limits on God?

sabh gobind hai, sabh gobind hai, gobind bin nahi koee.



Sikh80 said:


> PLease stop advising me. Keep something for yourself.
> You need much more than we need.



you're participating in a public forum.  that usually means you're inviting discussion.  

and what, pray tell, do you think i need?  please elaborate.  i'm tired of your veiled insults.


----------



## Sikh80

One Creator.
It is the teaching Of Nanak dev ji. I hope you know this.if not, revise your sikhi concepts.

Stop giving advice and carry on if you wish. If you act as a superior being ,i stop now.



jasleen_kaur said:


> why not? how do you know? as Japji Sahib reminds us, only God knows his ownself. why are you so eager to set man-made limits on God?
> 
> sabh gobind hai, sabh gobind hai, gobind bin nahi koee.
> 
> 
> 
> you're participating in a public forum. that usually means you're inviting discussion.
> 
> and what, pray tell, do you think i need? please elaborate. i'm tired of your veiled insults.


 
Hi Kelly ji,
In discussion the basic principle is that we are discussing with someone whom we feel as our equal. If this fine balance is lost the respondent becomes uneasy. In the opening comment you asked me to do sukhmani sahib paath and then learn about saint,brahmgyani and god.

I have never, from the core of my heart, ever hurt anyone. Nor will I do. This is a plain Indian culture ;different from the other culture.

You are fairly sensitive and a sensible lady so carry on the talk in ordinary fashion. Of what good is the praise and insult to me to a person whom I have never to meet or see in this life time. 
Regards. and do not lose your cool.

If by the use of my language I have hurt you I need be forgiven and should be told as to which part of my language you have felt so.

One pjhenomenon that I have seen is that at the end of each post there is a message ;Automated double post' 
Please check whether you see such a comment.


----------



## Archived_Member1

Sikh80 said:


> One Creator.
> It is the teaching Of Nanak dev ji. I hope you know this.if not, revise your sikhi concepts.



so is this:



 naanak barahm gi-aanee aap parmaysur. ||6||

O Nanak, the God-conscious being is Himself the Supreme Lord God. ||6||

barahm gi-aanee pooran purakh biDhaataa.

The God-conscious being is the Perfect Supreme Being, who orchestrates all.

 barahm gi-aanee kaa sagal akaar.

The God-conscious being owns the entire creation.

barahm gi-aanee aap nirankaar.

The God-conscious being is himself the Formless Lord.

 naanak barahm gi-aanee sarab kaa Dhanee. ||8||8||

O Nanak, the God-conscious being is the Lord of all. ||8||8||




> Stop giving advice and carry on if you wish. If you act as a superior being ,i stop now.



no advice, only gurbani.





> Hi Kelly ji,
> In discussion the basic principle is that we are discussing with someone whom we feel as our equal. If this fine balance is lost the respondent becomes uneasy. In the opening comment you asked me to do sukhmani sahib paath and then learn about saint,brahmgyani and god.



my name is jasleen.

and how is recommending that one read sukhmani sahib insulting?  



> I have never, from the core of my heart, ever hurt anyone. Nor will I do. This is a plain Indian culture ;different from the other culture.



perhaps in plain "indian culture" thowing about vague insults doesn't hurt people.  here, it's rude and unnecessary.  simply because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you need to insult them or chase them out of the forum.



Sikh80 said:


> You need much more than we need.



you never answered me.  what is it you think i need?


----------



## Sikh80

To add to the list the followings can be treated as god,depending upon the context,:
1] A saint
2] Brahmgyani
3] Guru 
4] Gurmukh
5] many others;may be 
There is no definition clause in Granth sahib wherein these terms are defined like we do in some statute books in clause 2 of the Statute. It is same with the American law or the Indian law. One can, therefore , never draw the meaning to make it a sweeping generalised meaning.It is the context that decides the exact meaning.

Yes, you may see ang. 1407 wherein Guru Arjan dev ji Maharaj is also refd. to as the Unfathomable lord. Does it mean that He becomes the Primal Lord. 
One shall have to use some logic and some reasoning to debug the meaning. One has to do the digging oneself. Else we are likely to be swayed by the opinions of other. I have not read SGGS even for once. But I shall read it slowly and very gradually. 

Kindly refer page 1407 and see for yourself the above statements about Arjan dev ji maharaj.
e&oe
My eng. is poor. There may be mistakes and I have not read it for the second time.

I would request to forget the past for a minute and move ahead. We shall always keep this as a bottom line that we are student of sikhi. It is top line and the bottom line whenever we discuss on this forum.

Do you see 'automated Doublepost at the bottom" .kindly inform.


----------



## Archived_Member1

Sikh80 said:


> Do you see 'automated Doublepost at the bottom" .kindly inform.




it's autoMERGED doublepost.  it means you posted twice in a row and the forum software automatically merged your two posts together.


----------



## AmbarDhara

Many Sikhs respect Bhai Gurdas as a Sant Atma. He claims that he is reay to be cut into four pieces for the person who accepts Guru and God as one. 

Gurbani refes to this truth many times in very clear words:

'Brahmgyani aap parmesar'


*So if one still believes that this is not true, then it is direct indication that this person is questioning Guru Ji's WORDS.* And to my understanding this thread is under Gurmat Vichar section not under Gurbani Debate section. The debate section of this thread should be posted in Interfaith or some other debate section. This place doesn't seem to be the right place for this. Keep only those parts where it is Gurbani Vichar and move the rest to debate section. 

I hope moderators understand what I mean.

thankyou. 






Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *OK this the one my son sent me( Bhai Gurdas Ji is talking about God and Guru):*
> 
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY gur prmySr eyko jwxY]*
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY dUjw Bwau n AwxY]*
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Aaugx kIqy gux prvwxY]*
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY mMdw iksY n AwK vKwxY]*
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY Awp Tgwey lokW BwxY]*
> *hauN iqsdy cauKMnIAY praupkwr krY rMg mwxY]*
> *lau bwlI drgwh ivc mwx inmwxwmwx inmwxY]*
> *gur pUrw gur Sbd is\wxY ]õ]*
> 
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who accepts Guru and God as one.*
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who does not allow the sense of duality to enter in him.*
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who understands the evil done to him as good one.*
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who never speaks ill of anyone.*
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who is ready to suffer loss for the sake of others.*
> *I am ready to be cut into four pieces for him who enjoys doing altruistic activities.*
> *Such a humble person understanding the Word of Guru, himself becomes the perfect Guru.*
> 
> 
> *humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness*


 



*Dhan Dhan Sache Paatshah, Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahibaan ANG 1142*

*paarabreham gur naahee bhaedh ||4||11||24||*
*There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru. ||4||11||24||*




*I REQUEST ALL THOSE WHO ARE IN OPPOSITION FOR THE TRUTH STATED ABOVE IN VERY CLEAR WORDS BY GURUS:*


*PLEASE READ ALL OF GURU GRANTH SAHIB, YOU WILL FIND THIS TRUTH WRITTEN MULTIPLE TIMES.*


----------



## BhagatSingh

AmbarDhara said:


> Many Sikhs respect Bhai Gurdas as a Sant Atma. He claims that he is reay to be cut into four pieces for the person who accepts Guru and God as one.
> 
> Gurbani refes to this truth many times in very clear words:
> 
> 'Brahmgyani aap parmesar'
> 
> 
> *So if one still believes that this is not true, then it is direct indication that this person is questioning Guru Ji's WORDS.* And to my understanding this thread is under Gurmat Vichar section not under Gurbani Debate section. The debate section of this thread should be posted in Interfaith or some other debate section. This place doesn't seem to be the right place for this. Keep only those parts where it is Gurbani Vichar and move the rest to debate section.
> 
> I hope moderators understand what I mean.
> 
> thankyou.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Dhan Dhan Sache Paatshah, Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahibaan ANG 1142*
> 
> *paarabreham gur naahee bhaedh ||4||11||24||*
> *There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru. ||4||11||24||*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I REQUEST ALL THOSE WHO ARE IN OPPOSITION FOR THE TRUTH STATED ABOVE IN VERY CLEAR WORDS BY GURUS:*
> 
> 
> *PLEASE READ ALL OF GURU GRANTH SAHIB, YOU WILL FIND THIS TRUTH WRITTEN MULTIPLE TIMES.*


NAH! Bhai Gurdas Ji ain't cool for this discussion, we're talking about SGGS. What Bhai Gurdas JI thinks doesn't matter, in fact he calls Guru Gobind Singh JI > Gobind Singh, so... Anyway if you're going to use other writings (notice I didn't says Bani) then Guru Gobind Singh, in Dasam Granth CLEARLY tells us to not CALL him parmesar. Its that paragraph (not shabad):
main hoon param purakh ko dasa, dekhan ayo jagat tamasa.
Later on he says, 
jo hum ko parmesar uchar hain, eh sabh narak kund main par hain... etc. 
I am writing this from head so might not be 100% exact!
First line shows he's a servant of God. Then he says If you call him (Guru Gobind SIngh)  God then you'll be sent to hell.

So this tells us that either the first nine Gurus were GOD!! 
_*OR*_
None of them were, as we "hear" from Guru GObind Singh himself, saying that he isn't!


----------



## AmbarDhara

I dont believe in Dasam Granth- Guru Gobind Singh Ji never ever claimed Himself to be the composer of any Granth like this. He Gave Gurgaddi to SGGS Ji. 

And Every Word of SGGS JI is GURU.

Guru says:

'Brahmgyani aap parmesar' 
Is Guru Nanak not a Brahmgyani?

Guru says:

'Guru parmesar eko jaan'
Is Guru Nanak not Guru?

Guru says:

'Guru parmesar nahi bhed'
'Guru Parmesar ek hai sabh mein rahya samaei'
'guru paarbarahm parmaysar aap'

Is Guru Nanak not Guru?


And Bhai Gurdas says exactly what SGGS Ji says. 

There are lot of controversies about this Dasam Granth of yours. Mostly people dont believe this to be Guru Gobind Singh Ji's composition. I haven't read it, and have no desire to read it either, especially after you telling me that it says exactly opposite to what SGGS Ji says. Thanks a lot for saving my time.


----------



## kds1980

> I dont believe in Dasam Granth- Guru Gobind Singh Ji never ever claimed Himself to be the composer of any Granth like this. He Gave Gurgaddi to SGGS Ji.



There are shabads in Dasam granth which looks original writing of Guru gobind singh ji


----------



## AmbarDhara

Yes kds, but how can you tell it is truly His composition. Looking like and being are two seperate things.

All that glitters is not gold.




Following is a posting from another thread that I like. This is about belief. I agree Surinder. Whatever Guru says 'IS' right. Questioning and doubting Guru is the biggest kurehat.

*


			
				Surinder Kaur Cheema said:
			
		


This is a matter of belief, the deeper the belief for 'the existance of God' develops, the duality and the doubts get cleared and vanish one after another. 


One like it or not, one has to believe in one thing- GURU IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

If one doesn't understand one thing today, but Guru is telling it time and again, IT GOT TO BE TRUE, ONE NEED TO LEARN TO SURRENDER IN FRONT OF GURU'S WORD.


without surrender there is no sipiritual progress. 


AS DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU NANAK DEV JI SACHE PAATSHAH DE BACHAN ON PAGE # 1:

HUKAM RAJAI CHALAN NANAK LIKHYAA NAAL....................


the wall of koor/haner/andhkaar/falsehood is going to break only if you believe in Guru's word, that's the begining, and then Guru takes over and there is no end of Guru's Grace afterwords.......................

With God's grace we meet our guru, form of Guru doesnt matter, as Guru is not limited to a form. GURU CAN ONLY BE THAT WHO IS ALREADY MERGED WITH THE SAT. and Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is all Bani of Sikh Gurus, Bhagats and Saints, who are merged with Sat, so their bani is also Sat/Nirankaar/Guru/Satguru/God. 

Do vichaar on just the first panna of Dhan Dhan Siri Guru granth Sahib Ji, and truthfully follow each and every line written there, all your doubts will eventually vanish with Waheguru's Grace, you will be able to understand all of Gurbani without doudts hovering over your mind, all ifs and buts will disapear.......... guru bhala kare

humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness

Click to expand...

* 
*Guru is the only one who can resolve all the doubts. *


----------



## kds1980

AmbarDhara said:


> Yes but how can you tell it is truly His composition. Looking like and being are two seperate things.
> 
> All that glitters is not gold.



Because those shabads are in in line of gurmat.I don't think we should raise doubt on those shabads which are according to gurmat.


----------



## AmbarDhara

Yes kds. I believe that any word that is in line of Gurmat is right. Doesn't matter who's composition it is/was or who is singing it. 


somthing on SELF:

*


			
				souljyot said:
			
		


Beyond The Physical

Click to expand...

*


			
				souljyot said:
			
		

> *We Are Beings Of Light*





			
				souljyot said:
			
		

> *We are all beings of light. Put another way, we are spiritual beings having a human experience. As children, most of us know this, but other human beings who have forgotten what they really are and who cannot help us to know ourselves train us to forget. As a result, we are led to believe that magic is not real, that our invisible playmates do not really exist, and that we are limited beings with only one earthly life to live. There is enormous pressure to conform to this concept of ourselves and so we lose touch with our full potential, forgetting that we are beings of light. *
> 
> *At this time, many of us are reawakening to the truth of who we are, because we are living amidst such large-scale changes in the world. We need to access this light in order to not only survive but thrive as we shift into a new order of consciousness. As the changes around us proceed in rapid progression, we will want to be able to trust our own ability to sense what is happening and how we can best respond. We are no longer living in a predictable world in which we can trust external authority figures and prior ideas about reality to guide us. We need to be able to access the information that will help us navigate these uncertain waters, and the ultimate authority resides in our awareness of ourselves as beings of light. *
> 
> *It is through our connection to this light that we know things beyond what the visible world can tell us, and we see things beyond what the physical world reveals. In order to access this wisdom, we can simply allow ourselves to remember that we are not limited, as we have been taught. In fact, we are filled with divine grace and power that is ours for the asking. A daily practice of tuning into this vast potential, conversing with it, and offering ourselves up to it opens the door through which we can reclaim our true identity, taking ownership of the calling that the time has come to create bliss on earth.*




Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave us the treasure SGGS Ji that does remind us about our true self.



"Recognize yourself, 0 mind! You are the light manifest. Rejoice in Guru's instruction that God is always with (in) you. If you recognize your Self, you shall know the Lord and shall get the knowledge of life and death" (GG, 441). 


joiq rUip hir Awip gurU nwnku khwXau ] (1408-10)
jot roop har aap guroo naanak kahaa-ya-o.
The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.


Every word of SGGS JI is Guru
Bani nirankaar hai.

so this bani has said so many times that Guru is Nirankaar Himself. SO IT IS.


----------



## Sardara123

BYrau mhlw 5 ]
siqguru myrw bymuhqwju ]
siqgur myry scw swju ]
siqguru myrw sBs kw dwqw ]
siqguru myrw purKu ibDwqw ]1]
gur jYsw nwhI ko dyv ]
ijsu msqik Bwgu su lwgw syv ]1] rhwau ]
siqguru myrw srb pRiqpwlY ]
siqguru myrw mwir jIvwlY ]
siqgur myry kI vifAweI ] pRgtu BeI hY sBnI QweI ]2]
siqguru myrw qwxu inqwxu ]
siqguru myrw Gir dIbwxu ]
siqgur kY hau sd bil jwieAw ]
pRgtu mwrgu ijin kir idKlwieAw ]3]
ijin guru syivAw iqsu Bau n ibAwpY ]
ijin guru syivAw iqsu duKu n sMqwpY ]
nwnk soDy isMimRiq byd ]
pwrbRhm gur nwhI Byd ]4]11]24]





Bhairao, Fifth Mehl:
My True Guru is totally independent.
My True Guru is adorned with Truth.
My True Guru is the Giver of all.
My True Guru is the Primal Creator Lord, the Architect of Destiny. ||1||
There is no deity equal to the Guru.
Whoever has good destiny inscribed on his forehead, applies himself to seva - selfless service. ||1||Pause||
My True Guru is the Sustainer and Cherisher of all.
My True Guru kills and revives.
The glorious greatness of my True Guru has become manifest everywhere. ||2||
My True Guru is the power of the powerless.
My True Guru is my home and court.
I am forever a sacrifice to the True Guru.
He has shown me the path. ||3||
One who serves the Guru is not afflicted with fear.
One who serves the Guru does not suffer in pain.
Nanak has studied the Simritees and the Vedas.
There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru. ||4||11||24||


----------



## BhagatSingh

Sardara123 said:


> BYrau mhlw 5 ]
> siqguru myrw bymuhqwju ]
> siqgur myry scw swju ]
> siqguru myrw sBs kw dwqw ]
> siqguru myrw purKu ibDwqw ]1]
> gur jYsw nwhI ko dyv ]
> ijsu msqik Bwgu su lwgw syv ]1] rhwau ]
> siqguru myrw srb pRiqpwlY ]
> siqguru myrw mwir jIvwlY ]
> siqgur myry kI vifAweI ] pRgtu BeI hY sBnI QweI ]2]
> siqguru myrw qwxu inqwxu ]
> siqguru myrw Gir dIbwxu ]
> siqgur kY hau sd bil jwieAw ]
> pRgtu mwrgu ijin kir idKlwieAw ]3]
> ijin guru syivAw iqsu Bau n ibAwpY ]
> ijin guru syivAw iqsu duKu n sMqwpY ]
> nwnk soDy isMimRiq byd ]
> pwrbRhm gur nwhI Byd ]4]11]24]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bhairao, Fifth Mehl:
> My True Guru is totally independent.
> My True Guru is adorned with Truth.
> My True Guru is the Giver of all.
> My True Guru is the Primal Creator Lord, the Architect of Destiny. ||1||
> There is no deity equal to the Guru.
> Whoever has good destiny inscribed on his forehead, applies himself to seva - selfless service. ||1||Pause||
> My True Guru is the Sustainer and Cherisher of all.
> My True Guru kills and revives.
> The glorious greatness of my True Guru has become manifest everywhere. ||2||
> My True Guru is the power of the powerless.
> My True Guru is my home and court.
> I am forever a sacrifice to the True Guru.
> He has shown me the path. ||3||
> One who serves the Guru is not afflicted with fear.
> One who serves the Guru does not suffer in pain.
> Nanak has studied the Simritees and the Vedas.
> There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru. ||4||11||24||


How do you know the word Guru there is not used to refer to GOD, like the word Ram or Hari? :hmm:


----------



## Archived_Member1

BhagatSingh said:


> How do you know the word Guru there is not used to refer to GOD, like the word Ram or Hari? :hmm:




if Guru is God, doesn't it refer to both?


----------



## Astroboy

It has repeatedly been ingrained in us that the physical is not the guru. Guru Granth Sahib's physical pages are not the guru.


----------



## BhagatSingh

jasleen_kaur said:


> if Guru is God, doesn't it refer to both?


Nope, it like saying it is wet outside so it MUST be raining. :rofl!!:
IT could be wet for different reasons but IF it is raining then it MUST be wet outside. You see how those things don't work backwards. 
Same sort of thing here.


----------



## Sardara123

siq bcn swDU aupdys ]
siq qy jn jw kY irdY pRvys ]
siq inriq bUJY jy koie ]
nwmu jpq qw kI giq hoie ]
Awip siq kIAw sBu siq ]
Awpy jwnY ApnI imiq giq ]
ijs kI isRsit su krxYhwru ]
Avr n bUiJ krq bIcwru ]
krqy kI imiq n jwnY kIAw ]
nwnk jo iqsu BwvY so vrqIAw ]7]


True are the Teachings, and the Instructions of the Holy.
True are those into whose hearts He enters.
One who knows and loves the Truth
chanting the Naam, he obtains salvation.
He Himself is True, and all that He has made is true.
He Himself knows His own state and condition.
He is the Creator Lord of His world.
No one else understands Him, although they may try.
The created cannot know the extent of the Creator.
O Nanak, whatever pleases Him comes to pass. ||7||


----------



## AmbarDhara

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar​ 
SGGS JI​ 

ANG 442​ 

SATGURU PRASAAD​ 



ratnaa ratan padaarath baho saagar bhari-aa raam.
The great ocean is full of the treasures of jewels upon jewels.​ 
banee gurbaanee laagay tinH hath charhi-aa raam.
Those who are committed to the Word of the Guru's Bani, see them come into their hands.​

gurbaanee laagay tinH hath charhi-aa nirmolak ratan apaaraa.
This priceless, incomparable jewel comes into the hands of those who are committed to the Word of the Guru's Bani.​ 
har har naam atolak paa-i-aa tayree bhagat bharay bhandaaraa.
They obtain the immeasurable Name of the Lord, Har, Har; their treasure is overflowing with devotional worship.​ 
samund virol sareer ham daykhi-aa ik vasat anoop dikhaa-ee.
I have churned the ocean of the body, and I have seen the incomparable thing come into view.​ 
gur govind govind guroo hai naanak bhayd na bhaa-ee. ||4||1||8||
The Guru is God, and God is the Guru, O Nanak; there is no difference between the two, O Siblings of Destiny. ||4||1||8||​


Punjabi translation of the last line from gurugranthdarpan site(Professor Sahib Singh):

hy BweI! gurU dI ikrpw nwl jdoN mYN Awpxy srIr-smuMdr ƒ pVqwl ky vyiKAw qW gurU ny mYƒ (srIr dy AMdr v`sdw hI prmwqmw dw nwm-rUp) sohxw kImqI pdwrQ ivKw id`qw [ hy nwnk! (AwK—) hy BweI! gurU prmwqmw hY prmwqmw gurU hY, dohW ivc koeI &rk nhIN hY [4[1[8[

charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​ 







Jasleen Ji,

Thanks a lot for providing the links for Gurbani sites. I noticed it today. Somehow I couldn't catch your post earlier. 

Once again, Thanks a lot.


----------



## carolineislands

I don't understand how God is only one, no other but God... monotheism... and yet God and Guru are one.  That sounds like Jesus as God in Christianity.  Who is the Guru in this instance?  How is the Guru one with God if God is only one?


----------



## kds1980

Caroline ji

As a newcomer I advise you to please not to enter this debate.Here some knowledgable persons are doing discussion whether Guru and god are one or not.


----------



## Astroboy

Caroline Ji,

This is a mature question. I would like to see how much sense can be derived from the views of others. In my opinion, True Guru is God - in whose lap we play our entire lives.

SGGS points in the direction one needs to reach before a clear understanding can be grasped about reality. 

One's feeling of something missing in one's life - is the driving force to seek. Most people will seek True Guru from the outside and only meet with untold obstacles. True Guru is the Bani - "Bani Guru, Guru Hai Bani, Vich Bani Amrit Saray, Bani Kahay Sewak Jann Manay, Partakh Guru Nistaray".

Where does one find Bani ?

How can we find something when we don't know where it is or what it feels like ?

"Anhad Bani Gur Shabad Janni,
 Har Naam Har Ras Bhogo,
Kahay Nanak Prabh Aap Miliya,
Karan Kaaran Jogo"

Anhad Bani can be heard within one's self. Whatever you hear with your physical ears is a duplicate, xerox copy only. 

More Later.


----------



## spnadmin

Caroline ji



carolineislands said:


> I don't understand how God is only one, no other but God... monotheism... and yet God and Guru are one.  That sounds like Jesus as God in Christianity.  Who is the Guru in this instance?  How is the Guru one with God if God is only one?



You are reading  this thread with fresh eyes and are asking an important question. In the end it is the only question worth asking.

*Who is God?

*You find the answer in Sikhism by reading the Bani called Jaap Sahib. A lot to think about there. Sri Dasam Granth Sahib


----------



## AmbarDhara

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar​ 
SGGS JI​ 

ANG 968​ 
SATGURU PRASAAD​ 



raamkalee kee vaar raa-ay balvand tathaa satai doom aakhee

Vaar Of Raamkalee, Uttered By Satta And Balwand The Drummer:​






Dhan Dhan raamdaas gur jin siri-aa tinai savaari-aa. 

Blessed, blessed is Guru Raam Daas; He who created You, has also exalted You. ​



pooree ho-ee karaamaat aap sirjanhaarai Dhaari-aa. 
Perfect is Your miracle; the Creator Lord Himself has installed You on the throne. ​



sikhee atai sangtee paarbarahm kar namaskaari-aa. 
The Sikhs and all the Congregation recognize You as the Supreme Lord God, and bow down to You. ​



atal athaahu atol too tayraa ant na paaraavaari-aa. 
You are unchanging, unfathomable and immeasurable; You have no end or limitation. ​



jinHee tooN sayvi-aa bhaa-o kar say tuDh paar utaari-aa. 
Those who serve You with love - You carry them across. ​


lab lobh kaam kroDh moh maar kadhay tuDh saparvaari-aa. 
Greed, envy, sexual desire, anger and emotional attachment - You have beaten them and driven them out. ​


Dhan so tayraa thaan hai sach tayraa paiskaari-aa. 
Blessed is Your place, and True is Your magnificent glory. ​


naanak too lahnaa toohai gur amar too veechaari-aa. 
You are Nanak, You are Angad, and You are Amar Daas; so do I recognize You. ​


gur dithaa taaN man saaDhaari-aa. ||7|| 
When I saw the Guru, then my mind was comforted and consoled. ||7|| ​







Translation of the same shabad from another source:

*DHAN DHAN RAM DAS GUR**
(SHABD FROM SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB)

Dhan dhan ram das gur jin syreaa tinai savaari-aa
Pooree ho-ee karaamaat aap sirjanhaarai dhaari-aa
Sikhee atai sangatee paarbrahm kar namaskaari-aa
Atal athaaho atol too(n) tayraa ant na paaraavaari-aa
Jinee too(n) sayvee-aa bhaa-o kar say tudh paar utaari-aa
Lab lobh kaam kridh moho maar kadhay tudh saparvaari-aa
Dhan so tayraa thaan hai sach tayraa paiskaari-aa
Naanaak too(n) lehnaa too(n) hai gur amar too(n) veechaari-aa
Gur dithaa taa(n) man saadhaari-aa

Praise unto Ram Das the Guru, the one who created you, established you.
You are such a miracle! The Creator has installed you on a throne.
Your Sikhs & all conscious people bow to you because you manifest God.
You are unchanging, unfathomable, immeasurable. Your limit cannot be perceived.
Those who serve you with love are carried across the sea of existence.
The 5 obstacles (greed, attachment, lust, anger, ego) cannot exist where you are.
The realm that you rule is the true place. True is your glory.
You are Nanak. Angad and Amar Das the Guru.
Oh, when I recognized you, my soul was completed!
*


charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​


----------



## BhagatSingh

aad0002 said:


> Caroline ji
> 
> 
> 
> You are reading  this thread with fresh eyes and are asking an important question. In the end it is the only question worth asking.
> 
> *Who is God?
> 
> *You find the answer in Sikhism by reading the Bani called Jaap Sahib. A lot to think about there. Sri Dasam Granth Sahib


Bani called Jaap Sahib? 
Is this a new kind of bani or something?? i think you mean Jap Ji Sahib, let's stick to Guru Granth Sahib people, no quoting/mentioning Bhai Gurdas or the so called Dasam Granth!


----------



## Archived_Member1

BhagatSingh said:


> Bani called Jaap Sahib?
> Is this a new kind of bani or something?? i think you mean Jap Ji Sahib, let's stick to Guru Granth Sahib people, no quoting/mentioning Bhai Gurdas or the so called Dasam Granth!



you're joking, right?  a "new" bani???  Jaap sahib has been recited every day since Guru Gobind Singh ji created the Khalsa.  and you think it's "new"?  you think it's not a bani?  have you ever read the rehet maryada?   sikhs recite it every single morning.


----------



## carolineislands

I realize I am very new to this.  So forgive me if I am interupting the conversation, but I have some questions so I'll attempt to comment, even in my ignorance.

Thank you for your patience.




> *DHAN DHAN RAM DAS GUR**(SHABD FROM SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB)*
> 
> *Praise unto Ram Das the Guru, *




*Is this God?  Who is Ram Das?  Guru means "Lord", right?*



> *the one who created you, established you.*
> *You are such a miracle! The Creator has installed you on a throne.*
> *Your Sikhs & all conscious people bow to you because you manifest God.*




*So is this saying praise to the creator of Nanak, who extablished him as the leader of the Sikhs?  And then, in the phrase "you manifest God" wouldn't that imply that Nanak is a manifestation of God?*

*I'm seeing the word manifest as a perceivable evidence of an unperceivable truth, or evidence of a fact.  In that case, wouldn't Nanak be the number and God the quantity?  The perceivable symbol for an abstract concept?  *

*That would not make the number the actual quantity, but it would make it the symbol we need to help us understand the concept of the quantity, and would help us be able to figure the quantity in equations, such as life?*



> *You are unchanging, unfathomable, immeasurable. Your limit cannot be perceived.*




*Is this speaking to the immeasurable wisdom of Nanak?  Seeing as he has the spark of God and is evidence of God?*



> *Those who serve you with love are carried across the sea of existence.*
> *The 5 obstacles (greed, attachment, lust, anger, ego) cannot exist where you are.*
> *The realm that you rule is the true place.*




*The realm being the realm of the spirit? *



> * True is your glory.*
> *You are Nanak. Angad and Amar Das the Guru.*




*What is "Amar"?  Is this saying that Nanak is Nanak, but that he is also evidence of God with God residing within him?*



> *Oh, when I recognized you, my soul was completed!*




*I would understand this to mean that the author experienced a great peace when they came to understand the mystery of how God can live within us and, in the case of Nanak, make himself perceivable to beings who are largely incapable of perceiving anything of the spirit or on the spiritual realm.*

*?*



charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​[/quote]


----------



## Astroboy

Gur Parmesar Eko Jaan (Katha)

Summer Solstice 1978 - Dhan Dhan Ram Das Guru


rwmklI kI vwr rwie blvMif qQw sqY fUim AwKI (968-9)
raamkalee kee vaar raa-ay balvand tathaa satai doom aakhee
Vaar Of Raamkalee, Uttered By Satta And Balwand The Drummer:

*Dhan dhan ram das gur jin syreaa tinai savaari-aa*
*Pooree ho-ee karaamaat aap sirjanhaarai dhaari-aa*
*Sikhee atai sangatee paarbrahm kar namaskaari-aa*
*Atal athaaho atol too(n) tayraa ant na paaraavaari-aa*
*Jinee too(n) sayvee-aa bhaa-o kar say tudh paar utaari-aa*
*Lab lobh kaam kridh moho maar kadhay tudh saparvaari-aa*
*Dhan so tayraa thaan hai sach tayraa paiskaari-aa*
*Naanaak too(n) lehnaa too(n) hai gur amar too(n) veechaari-aa*
*Gur dithaa taa(n) man saadhaari-aa*

_Praise unto Ram Das the Guru, the one who created you, established you._
_You are such a miracle! The Creator has installed you on a throne._
_Your Sikhs & all conscious people bow to you because you manifest God._
_You are unchanging, unfathomable, immeasurable. Your limit cannot be perceived._
_Those who serve you with love are carried across the sea of existence._
_The 5 obstacles (greed, attachment, lust, anger, ego) cannot exist where you are._
_The realm that you rule is the true place. True is your glory._
_You are Nanak. Angad and Amar Das the Guru._
_Oh, when I recognized you, my soul was completed!_

Who were Satta and Balwand ?
Read the sakhi (history of them) and all will become clear. The meanings will be understood better.

Here's what I found about the Authors:-

Satta was a rebeck player who served Guru Angad, Guru Amar Das, Guru Ram Das and Guru Arjun Dev. Along with his fellow musician Balwand they jointly composed a ballad which appears in the Guru Granth.

SATTA, also called because he was a dum or mirãsi by birth, a rabàbi or rebeck&shy;player to Guru Arjan, and cocomposer, with Rãi Balvand, of Rãmkali ki Var, included in the Guru Granth Sãhib in the Rãmkali musical measure.

Further reading:-
Rai Balvand - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.


----------



## BhagatSingh

jasleen_kaur said:


> you're joking, right?  a "new" bani???  Jaap sahib has been recited every day since Guru Gobind Singh ji created the Khalsa.  and you think it's "new"?  you think it's not a bani?  have you ever read the rehet maryada?   sikhs recite it every single morning.


Oh yeah! Guru Gobind Singh JI recited it during the creation of Khalsa! How could I have forgotten that, I was right behind him when he was reciting it!  Silly me! k Jokes aside...

the origin of Jaap sahib leads back to the 18th century, along with the rest of the Granth. So if Guru Gobind Singh ji,  recited it, he must have lived for a very long time, which I doubt. Guru Gobind writing the Jaap Sahib is a whole different story.    :idea:Assuming that he did write the Jaap Sahib, why would he put it into an anti-feminist Granth. 

BTW Sikhs also drink every day. :hmm:


----------



## kaur-1

Re: 





carolineislands said:


> 10 Gurus in human form = One Guru Jyot(divine light/divine infinite wisdom) = Shabad Guru = Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
> 
> "Eka bani, ik gur,          eko shabad vichar
> There is One Bani; there is One Guru; there is one Shabad to contemplate." (Ang 646 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji age 646:SearchGurbani.com ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ )
> 
> “The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak. From Him, came Guru Angad; His essence was absorbed into the essence.”
> (Ang 1408)
> 
> 
> For more info on "Shabad" please see a few selected links:
> 
> Shabad, Gurbani, Naam: What Is It?
> Why and how do Sikhs bow before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? | Sikhism101.com | UniversalFaith.net
> You were Blocked
> 
> 
> For more on "Guru" please see selected links:
> Do Sikhs worship the 10 Gurus as God? | Sikhism101.com | UniversalFaith.net
> Search Sikhism Home Page - Sikh Gurus
> 
> 
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji authors Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji age :SearchGurbani.com ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ


----------



## Daanveer

ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਅਨਿ ਜੇ ਦੇਵੈ ਦੇਵਣਹਾਰੁ ॥ 
gur kirapaa thae paaeean jae dhaevai dhaevanehaar ||
By Guru's Grace, they are obtained, if the Great Giver gives them.


If There Is Guru Kirpa, Only then the truth can be realized. Kaur-1 Ji.

This is so obvios from this thread, whatever one says about the 'Concept of ONE' te opposition party is seriosly engrossed in making a joke of Gurbani. 

The reason behind can be many factors:

Theybelong to some anti-sikh propaganda group.

They dont know anything.

They are here to just have some fun.

Some people derive pleasure by irritating others, but here they dont even know what they doing.

God sent Nindaks just for all of us to learn more and strenthen our belief. Us here refers to all who believe in every word of Guru Granth sahib Ji.

Or some other reason


Waheguru Bhalaa Karei


----------



## Archived_Member1

BhagatSingh said:


> Oh yeah! Guru Gobind Singh JI recited it during the creation of Khalsa! How could I have forgotten that, I was right behind him when he was reciting it!  Silly me! k Jokes aside...
> 
> the origin of Jaap sahib leads back to the 18th century, along with the rest of the Granth. So if Guru Gobind Singh ji,  recited it, he must have lived for a very long time, which I doubt. Guru Gobind writing the Jaap Sahib is a whole different story.    :idea:Assuming that he did write the Jaap Sahib, why would he put it into an anti-feminist Granth.
> 
> BTW Sikhs also drink every day. :hmm:



you compare the amrit banis to alcohol???

wow.  i'm at a loss for words.


----------



## BhagatSingh

jasleen_kaur said:


> you compare the amrit banis to alcohol???
> 
> wow.  i'm at a loss for words.


Don't lose your words there, I wasn't comparing SGGS to anything.
i was comparing dasam granth, which is worse than alcohol! No wait... come to think of it.... they are both jsut as bad! :}{}{}:
But let's not discuss its contents here.


----------



## Archived_Member1

please stop insulting my guru.  i'm done trying to discuss anything rationally with you.


----------



## Sardara123

Agreed Danveer Ji, I believe that one should follow Gurbani and completely ignore these kind of people, and ask for sarbat da bhalaaa.



Daanveer said:


> ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਅਨਿ ਜੇ ਦੇਵੈ ਦੇਵਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
> gur kirapaa thae paaeean jae dhaevai dhaevanehaar ||
> By Guru's Grace, they are obtained, if the Great Giver gives them.
> 
> 
> If There Is Guru Kirpa, Only then the truth can be realized. Kaur-1 Ji.
> 
> This is so obvios from this thread, whatever one says about the 'Concept of ONE' te opposition party is seriosly engrossed in making a joke of Gurbani.
> 
> The reason behind can be many factors:
> 
> Theybelong to some anti-sikh propaganda group.
> 
> They dont know anything.
> 
> They are here to just have some fun.
> 
> Some people derive pleasure by irritating others, but here they dont even know what they doing.
> 
> God sent Nindaks just for all of us to learn more and strenthen our belief. Us here refers to all who believe in every word of Guru Granth sahib Ji.
> 
> Or some other reason
> 
> 
> Waheguru Bhalaa Karei


----------



## BhagatSingh

jasleen_kaur said:


> please stop insulting my guru.  i'm done trying to discuss anything rationally with you.


What do you call rational? take that statement for example, do you consider dasam granth your Guru?? What is rational to you?
I have been asking many questions, and only a few of them get asnwered. I have been trying to make my questions and comments as critical and logical as possible. What else do you want me to do?? Start believing, that someone who calls himself the dust of god's feet is GOD? Is THAT rational?? 
with that aside..

Some questions I asked , I already knew the asnwers to but I wanted to look at them from a different perspective. I ask for that perspective and I become anti SIkh??? I dont know what you guys would call someone who is anti Sikh?? If an atheist comes to this forum and starts asking questions (BTW mine were very similar to what he/she might ask), how would you guys answer them?? BY calling the person and the questions anti Sikh?? Isn't that Anti Sikh( calling random people anti sikh)? is there a type of question called anti Sikh?? Is calling someone anti Sikh supposed to be some form of discrimination?? 

Ok so what if anti Sikh comes on the forum! Would this behaviour, make him less anti Sikh? would calling him an anti Sikh make him less anti Sikh??


----------



## Archived_Member1

BhagatSingh said:


> What do you call rational? take that statement for example, do you consider dasam granth your Guru??




this is exactly what i'm talking about.  you insult Guru Gobind Singh, amrit sanchar, and the nitnem banis  and then suggest i said dasam granth is guru.  i said no such thing.

you want to know why people don't answer your questions?  because they're infused with insults and innuendo and you simply twist the answers into more insult and attacks.   it's completely pointless.


----------



## spnadmin

jasleen_kaur said:


> you're joking, right?  a "new" bani???  Jaap sahib has been recited every day since Guru Gobind Singh ji created the Khalsa.  and you think it's "new"?  you think it's not a bani?  have you ever read the rehet maryada?   sikhs recite it every single morning.



Jasleen ji,

Thanks. For a moment there I thought I was an apostate or something. Every day around lunchtime.

The interesting thing about this Bani -- Guru Gobind Singh was humble enough to refuse to have his Bani included in the Adi Granth. He saw that Granth as having a primal significance. Jaap Sahib was written because Sikhs then and now asked to have the nature of God clarified for them. And so this majestic prayer.


----------



## Archived_Member1

aad0002 said:


> Jasleen ji,
> 
> Thanks. For a moment there I thought I was an apostate or something. Every day around lunchtime.
> 
> The interesting thing about this Bani -- Guru Gobind Singh was humble enough to refuse to have his Bani included in the Adi Granth. He saw that Granth as having a primal significance. Jaap Sahib was written because Sikhs then and now asked to have the nature of God clarified for them. And so this majestic prayer.




agreed, i absolutely love this bani, it's so incredibly meditative, simple and yet so deep.  

i'm pretty sure that the majority of people who do not accept dasam granth still accept the nitnem banis as the words of Guru sahib.  that's why i was so surprised.


----------



## spnadmin

Caroline ji

You may not be as confused as you pretend to be. You questions may be a little Socratic. Encouraging us to reflect and define our terms?

Is this God?  Who is Ram Das?  Guru means "Lord", right? So is this saying praise to the creator of Nanak, who extablished him as the leader of the Sikhs? 

God is being praised. Nanak is not the leader of the 
Sikhs, but the one who started us on a new spiritual path

 And then, in the phrase "you manifest God" wouldn't that imply that Nanak is a manifestation of God?

Nanaak carries the jyote or Light of Divine Truth. We are all manifestations of God because God in in His Creation. God is also greater than His Creation. Please read Jaap Sahib.

I'm seeing the word manifest as a perceivable evidence of an unperceivable truth, or evidence of a fact.  In that case, wouldn't Nanak be the number and God the quantity?  The perceivable symbol for an abstract concept?  

No

That would not make the number the actual quantity, but it would make it the symbol we need to help us understand the concept of the quantity, and would help us be able to figure the quantity in equations, such as life?

Too analytical

Is this speaking to the immeasurable wisdom of Nanak?  Seeing as he has the spark of God and is evidence of God?

As above

What is "Amar"?  Is this saying that Nanak is Nanak, but that he is also evidence of God with God residing within him?

The jyote was passed from Guru to Guru until Guru Gobind Singh. Nanak was the first Guru.  The first 3 gurus were Nanaak, Angad and Amar Das. In this line Amar  is a reference to Ram Das, who is the 4th Guru and the 4th to receive the jyote.

Ang 130
ਅਮਰਦਾਸ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਸਾਧਨਿ ਲਖਾ ਮੂੜ੍ਹ ਨਹਿ ਪਾਯੋ ॥੯॥
Amardaas Raamdaas kahaayo|| Saadhan(i) lakhaa moo?h nah(i) paayo||9||
Amar Das was called Ram Das, only the saints know it and the fools did not.


I would understand this to mean that the author experienced a great peace when they came to understand the mystery of how God can live within us and, in the case of Nanak, make himself perceivable to beings 

This is one way of explaining the line.

who are largely incapable of perceiving anything of the spirit or on the spiritual realm.

We are not incapable. We just don't realize how capable we are.[/COLOR]

Caroline ji,

You have a voice. We are hearing you. In a friendly way I am asking you if you would  make your font a little smaller now -- your comments will be easier to read. ]


----------



## carolineislands

Sorry about the font.  I quoted the post before me and it repeated the font.  

Thanks for listening.  I am truly a bit confused, but somewhat Socratic as well.  For myself mostly.

I was born and raised in Christianity which is suddenly seeming very linear!  And so I am used to thinking of the Trinitarian concept of God as three but all in One.  First of all, I don't know the terminology here and so I'm at a disadvantage, but I am truly trying to understand this concept of Guru and God as one, but also not as one because God is only One.

I'm also starting to see that a person could read the Sikh scriptures for their entire life and still be as challenged as I feel right now.  And to tell the truth, that's exciting to me because I have been in a box for a long time.

The idea of the one light being passed down through 10 Gurus is also very strange to me.  It's all a new way of thinking.

One thing I've noticed about religions that claim to be monotheisms is that none seem to be.  Christianity claims monotheism and yet they worship what they call a triune God with Jesus and the Holy Spirit as parts of God.  Islam claims to be the only true monotheism and yet a person cannot become a Muslim without declaring allegiance to God AND Mohammad and very rarely are prayers sent up to God only.  Thus Mohammad is worshipped as well, even though Muslims will deny this.

That is the main reason I am trying to understand the concept of Guru and God being one.  Because I am wondering if Sikhism is similar to the other religions that claim to be monotheistic and yet seem to have other entities equal or part of God.

I don't mean to offend anybody with this question.  I hope you can see how this would appear to me?

It seems as though, once again, I have found a monotheistic religion that declares one God but has also joined a human being with God as part of God.

Again, thank you for hearing me.


----------



## Archived_Member1

from a christian perspective, one might compare the jot, or light of God, with the concept of the holy spirit.



> That is the main reason I am trying to understand the concept of Guru and God being one. Because I am wondering if Sikhism is similar to the other religions that claim to be monotheistic and yet seem to have other entities equal or part of God.
> 
> I don't mean to offend anybody with this question.  I hope you can see how this would appear to me?
> 
> It seems as though, once again, I have found a monotheistic religion that declares one God but has also joined a human being with God as part of God.




i think sikhism is completely monotheistic.  however, as God is everywhere, is everything, we're encouraged to try to see the God living in every person.  this doesn't mean we worship people.   we only worship the One Formless God (Akaal Purakh).  

from a judeo- christian perspective it's really hard to explain.  it makes more sense if you're familiar with the dharmic religions (hinduism, buddhism, etc).  

Guru says, "sabh gobind hai, sabh gobind hai, gobind bin nahi koi"

which means:  God is everything, God is everything, without God there is nothing.

i hope this makes some kind of sense.


----------



## Sardara123

jb lau nhI Bwg illwr audY qb lau BRmqy iPrqy bhu DwXau ]
kil Gor smudR mY bUfq Qy kbhU imit hY nhI ry pCuqwXau ]
qqu ibcwru XhY mQurw jg qwrn kau Avqwru bnwXau ]
jp´au ijn@ Arjun dyv gurU iPir sMkt join grB n AwXau ]6](1409)


As long as the destiny written upon my forehead was not activated, I wandered around lost, running in all directions.
I was drowning in the horrible world-ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, and my remorse would never have ended.
O Mat'huraa, consider this essential truth: to save the world, the Lord incarnated Himself.
Whoever meditates on Guru Arjun Dayv, shall not have to pass through the painful womb of reincarnation ever again. ||6||





kil smudR Bey rUp pRgit hir nwm auDwrnu ]
bsih sMq ijsu irdY duK dwirdR invwrnu ]
inrml ByK Apwr qwsu ibnu Avru n koeI ]
mn bc ijin jwixAau BXau iqh smsir soeI ]
Drin ggn nv KMf mih joiq sÍrUpI rihE Bir ]
Bin mQurw kCu Bydu nhI guru Arjunu prqK´ hir ]7]19](1409)




In the ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord's Name has been revealed in the Form of Guru Arjun, to save the world.
Pain and poverty are taken away from that person, within whose heart the Saint abides.
He is the Pure, Immaculate Form of the Infinite Lord; except for Him, there is no other at all.
Whoever knows Him in thought, word and deed, becomes just like Him.
He is totally pervading the earth, the sky and the nine regions of the planet. He is the Embodiment of the Light of God.
So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. ||7||19||


----------



## spnadmin

Caroline ji



carolineislands said:


> Sorry about the font.  I quoted the post before me and it repeated the font.
> 
> Thanks for listening.  I am truly a bit confused, but somewhat Socratic as well.  For myself mostly.
> 
> If you don't ask questions and understand what confuses you -- well you won't learn. So good.
> 
> I was born and raised in Christianity which is suddenly seeming very linear! And so I am used to thinking of the Trinitarian concept of God as three but all in One. First of all, I don't know the terminology here and so I'm at a disadvantage, but I am truly trying to understand this concept of Guru and God as one, but also not as one because God is only One.
> 
> Guru means the Light that dispels Darkness. The jyote is the light. The Darkness is ignorance coming from our experience of being psychologically stuck in Maya - mistaking our perceptions as truth, our mistaking our ignorance for knowledge of the truth. The closest you can come to this in Christianity would be found in the writings of Christian mystics - you might want to look at the book "The Cloud of Unknowing."
> 
> The Satgur is beyond time and beyond material experience, and beyond number if you will, so the idea of 3 in 1 doesn't really translate.
> 
> I'm also starting to see that a person could read the Sikh scriptures for their entire life and still be as challenged as I feel right now. And to tell the truth, that's exciting to me because I have been in a box for a long time.
> 
> Probably -- but there are people who claim to have total comprehension and that always amazes me.
> 
> The idea of the one light being passed down through 10 Gurus is also very strange to me.  It's all a new way of thinking.
> 
> In Christianity there is the very different idea of _disciplic succession._ Say, from Jesus to the apostles to later evangelists, or to a patriarch or the pope in Rome -- all learning at the feet of those who came before them. The transmission of the jyote is not like that at all. The 10 Guru's were individuals who were able to move their minds and hearts and souls out from under all the layers of materiality and imperfection, all the layers of Maya, to a pure discovery of God within themselves, within all of Creation. This realization is the jyote. Why these 10 and not another 10? Because the first recognized the jyote in the second, and the second in the third, and the third in the fourth, and the fourth in the fifth, and so on. Finally we get to Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji who ends by saying find the jyote in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Some say he was beginning to see signs among the sangat that looked like a return to worship of gurus in human form, idolatry, pagan ideas. Who knows? The idea is that we all have this jyote, but most are not aware.
> 
> One thing I've noticed about religions that claim to be monotheisms is that none seem to be. Christianity claims monotheism and yet they worship what they call a triune God with Jesus and the Holy Spirit as parts of God. Islam claims to be the only true monotheism and yet a person cannot become a Muslim without declaring allegiance to God AND Mohammad and very rarely are prayers sent up to God only. Thus Mohammad is worshipped as well, even though Muslims will deny this.
> 
> I don't know what to say.
> 
> That is the main reason I am trying to understand the concept of Guru and God being one. Because I am wondering if Sikhism is similar to the other religions that claim to be monotheistic and yet seem to have other entities equal or part of God.
> 
> Not entities equal to or part of God as a kind of mathematical equation or relationship. More like this: Creation is part of the infinite and timeless One who pervades his creation. He cannot be measured. "One" is immeasurable. It is unity.
> 
> I don't mean to offend anybody with this question.  I hope you can see how this would appear to me?
> 
> No one is offended when someone is sincere.
> 
> It seems as though, once again, I have found a monotheistic religion that declares one God but has also joined a human being with God as part of God.
> 
> Again, thank you for hearing me.


----------



## carolineislands

Wow...  I think I'm starting to get it.  And I think, for the first time in my life, I am seeing how all the puzzle pieces might just fit together after all.

Too bad there's not a smiley for that.


----------



## Sherab

carolineislands said:


> Wow...  I think I'm starting to get it.  And I think, for the first time in my life, I am seeing how all the puzzle pieces might just fit together after all.
> 
> Too bad there's not a smiley for that.


  I have a smiley though for my joy for you! :shy::shy::shy::shy::shy:

It'd look something like that!

I can't wait to see how u grow in sikhism!


----------



## spnadmin

You just have to keep asking questions, reading the Guru, listening to what others say, reading good information, evaluating what you hear and read. Make it your own.


----------



## carolineislands

aad0002 said:


> You just have to keep asking questions, reading the Guru, listening to what others say, reading good information, evaluating what you hear and read. Make it your own.


 
That's the beauty of it, isn't it?

I ordered "Adi Granth" from amazon.com and plan to start reading every morning as soon as I get it.  I have been waking up earlier than usual as well and have been meditating on God to go to sleep at night and it's already helping me a lot.  I haven't been able to sleep well for years.  It's really kind of amazing after feeling for most of my life that there should be some way of going beyond the bounds of religion and seeking only God that maybe I was right all along.


----------



## Archived_Member1

carolineislands said:


> That's the beauty of it, isn't it?
> 
> I ordered "Adi Granth" from amazon.com and plan to start reading every morning as soon as I get it.  I have been waking up earlier than usual as well and have been meditating on God to go to sleep at night and it's already helping me a lot.  I haven't been able to sleep well for years.  It's really kind of amazing after feeling for most of my life that there should be some way of going beyond the bounds of religion and seeking only God that maybe I was right all along.



can you please show a link to the "Adi Granth" which is available on amazon.com?  i'm a bit suspicious of it, as usually one cannot purchase our holy text except through a small number of authorized publishers...


----------



## BhagatSingh

aad0002 said:


> Jasleen ji,
> 
> Thanks. For a moment there I thought I was an apostate or something. Every day around lunchtime.
> 
> The interesting thing about this Bani -- Guru Gobind Singh was humble enough to refuse to have his Bani included in the Adi Granth. He saw that Granth as having a primal significance. Jaap Sahib was written because Sikhs then and now asked to have the nature of God clarified for them. And so this majestic prayer.


That's very unrealistic, as Guru Granth Sahib has described God well. and Gurus themselves said that the more you say about God, the more there is to be said. and that no definition is ever good snough. So I don't really know how this bani was helping much. 
About Guru GObind SIngh Ji being humble, well, he was a warrior! Humble? maybe but he included one of his saloks but not Jaap Sahib!!? doesn't make much sense.
and Aren't we supposed to be following our Guru?? So if he didn't give much importance to it then why do we? He doesn't want us to give importance to anything outside of SGGS so why do we disobey him? 

OK so we disobey him? so what? well, in dasam granth, he clearly says he is not God and whoever calls him God will be sent to hell! SO why does almost everyone here still think he is God?



jasleen_kaur said:


> this is exactly what i'm talking about.  you insult Guru Gobind Singh, amrit sanchar, and the nitnem banis  and then suggest i said dasam granth is guru.  i said no such thing.
> 
> you want to know why people don't answer your questions?  because they're infused with insults and innuendo and you simply twist the answers into more insult and attacks.   it's completely pointless.


Well, we were talking about dasam granth and you say I insulted your guru?? I know I insulted dasam granth but I DID NOT insult anyone's Guru or Guru Gobind SIngh JI! Unless they consider dasamgranth to be their Guru, in which case I am silent! I am a big fan of Guru Gobind SIngh Ji and I would never insult him!  I am sorry you felt that but I did not mean to insult Guru Gobind SIngh JI!
I insulted amrit sanchar? help me out here. 
the nitnem banis? Yes only the ones in Dasam Granth! SO you can't say I insulted the nitnem banis because that means all of them. 

Hey, If you feel insulted because I insulted dasam granth then don't be. I gave very rational points on why I did so! In my honest opinion, chraitropakhyan, which is part of dasam Granth and a few other writings there (Jaap Sahib excluded)acutally INSULT Guru GObind SIngh JI! I also gave very reasonable points for this, maybe you should have taken a closer look. 
I am sorry that people say pointless things! I may have said some, I won't deny it! I've heard quite a lot of pointless things on this thread! about my questions being insults, again I didn't mean to insult anyone with my questions! I am truly sorry for that! If anyone is insulted by my questions please let me know, right away! So that I can try and reword so it doesn't sound insulting,.. I don't know. I am quite young with a limited vocabulary so please help me out there. :hmm:


----------



## spnadmin

Bhagat ji,

In the course of discussion perhaps we will come to know how you personally have turned your will and your life over to God's hukam as you understand God.


----------



## Archived_Member1

BhagatSingh said:


> That's very unrealistic, as Guru Granth Sahib has described God well. and Gurus themselves said that the more you say about God, the more there is to be said. and that no definition is ever good snough. So I don't really know how this bani was helping much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so you think you know better than Guru.  you know better than Akal Takht.  you know better than dozens of well known historians and experts on gurbani.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About Guru GObind SIngh Ji being humble, well, he was a warrior! Humble? maybe but he included one of his saloks but not Jaap Sahib!!? doesn't make much sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> so because something doesn't make sense to you, it's not possible for Guru to have done it.  got it.  you're smarter than Guru?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and Aren't we supposed to be following our Guru?? So if he didn't give much importance to it then why do we? He doesn't want us to give importance to anything outside of SGGS so why do we disobey him?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yes, and i follow my Guru every day when i recite my nitnem banis, which do have great importance, they're important enough to be part of amrit sanchar...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we were talking about dasam granth and you say I insulted your guru?? I know I insulted dasam granth but I DID NOT insult anyone's Guru or Guru Gobind SIngh JI! Unless they consider dasamgranth to be their Guru, in which case I am silent! I am a big fan of Guru Gobind SIngh Ji and I would never insult him!  I am sorry you felt that but I did not mean to insult Guru Gobind SIngh JI!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> when you insult his bani, you insult him.  seems simple enough to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I insulted amrit sanchar? help me out here.
> the nitnem banis? Yes only the ones in Dasam Granth! SO you can't say I insulted the nitnem banis because that means all of them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> amrit sanchar includes five nitnem banis.  this gurbani is what makes amrit!  this includes three banis by guru gobind singh ji, from dasam granth, which you say are not guru's words.  so when you deny the banis that are the very essence of amrit, you're pretty much writing off amrit sanchar.
> 
> unless kala afghana is doing his own version of amrit with different banis?  or do you know of some other place that does amrit sanchar without the traditional five banis?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, If you feel insulted because I insulted dasam granth then don't be. I gave very rational points on why I did so! In my honest opinion, chraitropakhyan, which is part of dasam Granth and a few other writings there (Jaap Sahib excluded)acutally INSULT Guru GObind SIngh JI! I also gave very reasonable points for this, maybe you should have taken a closer look.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> no i feel insulted because you talk about guru can't do this, guru couldn't have done that...  who are you to say what guru can and cannot do?
> 
> 
> 
> if you only address ONE issue from this post, PLEASE tell me where amrit sanchar is performed WITHOUT the banis of the tenth master.  no one seems to be able to answer this for me.
Click to expand...


----------



## carolineislands

the Adi Granth I found at amazon.com

Amazon.com: The Adi Granth: Or The Holy Scriptures Of The Sikhs: Books: Ernest Trumpp

Let me know if it's not so good and please a link to a better translation.  I don't want to just read online -- I want a book I can hold and take to bed and stick in my bag...


----------



## Archived_Member1

carolineislands said:


> the Adi Granth I found at amazon.com
> 
> Amazon.com: The Adi Granth: Or The Holy Scriptures Of The Sikhs: Books: Ernest Trumpp
> 
> Let me know if it's not so good and please a link to a better translation.  I don't want to just read online -- I want a book I can hold and take to bed and stick in my bag...




just a couple of things about this book.  first, it's not the Guru Granth Sahib, as it only has 700something pages, about half the pages of SGGS.  second, it's published/translated by Ernest Trump, who was famously anti-sikh in his views.  

some of the reviews of the book are pretty negative...  you should read through them and see what you think.

but i have not read this actual book, so i cannot comment with authority. 


i do recommend picking up a "sundar gutka", with english translation.  you can get one at Singhbrothers - Publisher, BookSeller, Exporter, Quality Printer.   this small format prayer book will include all of the daily nitnem banis, as well as some of the longer banis read on special occasions.  it will also probably include glossary of terms and explanations of concepts that are unfamiliar to a non-sikh.


i would guess that most sikhs never read the entire guru granth sahib in their lives.   we SHOULD, but for many, it's not practical.  the SGGS requires a lot of respect, which many people find inconvenient.


----------



## spnadmin

CAroline ji

Jasleen ji is correct in what she says. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib is 1430 pages or so. And also Trump is notoriously biased against the panthic view of Sikhism. His agenda is to show that Sikhism is nothing more than a branch of Brahminism.

You can also find, while you are waiting for your own book, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib on the Internet. One that I like is on this site.

Siri Guru Granth Sahib - The Living Guru of the Sikhs


----------



## Sardara123

isrIrwgu mhlw 1 ]
guxvMqI gux vIQrY AauguxvMqI JUir ]
jy loVih vru kwmxI nh imlIAY ipr kUir ]
nw byVI nw qulhVw nw pweIAY ipru dUir ]1]
myry Twkur pUrY qKiq Afolu ]
gurmuiK pUrw jy kry pweIAY swcu Aqolu ]1] rhwau ]
pRBu hirmMdru sohxw iqsu mih mwxk lwl ] moqI hIrw inrmlw kMcn kot rIswl ]
ibnu pauVI giV ikau cVau gur hir iDAwn inhwl ]2]
guru pauVI byVI gurU guru qulhw hir nwau ]
guru sru swgru boihQo guru qIrQu drIAwau ]
jy iqsu BwvY aUjlI sq sir nwvx jwau ]3]
pUro pUro AwKIAY pUrY qKiq invws ]
pUrY Qwin suhwvxY pUrY Aws inrws ]
nwnk pUrw jy imlY ikau GwtY gux qws ]4]9]



Siree Raag, First Mehl:
The virtuous wife exudes virtue; the unvirtuous suffer in misery.
If you long for your Husband Lord, O soul-bride, you must know that He is not met by falsehood.
No boat or raft can take you to Him. Your Husband Lord is far away. ||1||
My Lord and Master is Perfect; His Throne is Eternal and Immovable.
One who attains perfection as Gurmukh, obtains the Immeasurable True Lord. ||1||Pause||
The Palace of the Lord God is so beautiful. Within it, there are gems, rubies, pearls and flawless diamonds. A fortress of gold surrounds this Source of Nectar.
How can I climb up to the Fortress without a ladder? By meditating on the Lord, through the Guru, I am blessed and exalted. ||2||
The Guru is the Ladder, the Guru is the Boat, and the Guru is the Raft to take me to the Lord's Name.
The Guru is the Boat to carry me across the world-ocean; the Guru is the Sacred Shrine of Pilgrimage, the Guru is the Holy River.
If it pleases Him, I bathe in the Pool of Truth, and become radiant and pure. ||3||
He is called the Most Perfect of the Perfect. He sits upon His Perfect Throne.
He looks so Beautiful in His Perfect Place. He fulfills the hopes of the hopeless.
O Nanak, if one obtains the Perfect Lord, how can his virtues decrease? ||4||9||


----------



## AmbarDhara

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar

Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi

SGGS JI

SATGURU PRASAAD




ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ 
mehalaa 4 ||
Fourth Mehl:


ਜਿਸ ਦੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਅਲਾਏ ॥ 
jis dhai andhar sach hai so sachaa naam mukh sach alaaeae ||
Those, within whom the Truth dwells, obtain the True Name; they speak only the Truth.


ਓਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਆਪਿ ਚਲਦਾ ਹੋਰਨਾ ਨੋ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਏ ॥ 
ouhu har maarag aap chaladhaa horanaa no har maarag paaeae ||
They walk on the Lord's Path, and inspire others to walk on the Lord's Path as well.


ਜੇ ਅਗੈ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮਲੁ ਲਹੈ ਛਪੜਿ ਨਾਤੈ ਸਗਵੀ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਏ ॥ 
jae agai theerathh hoe thaa mal lehai shhaparr naathai sagavee mal laaeae ||
Bathing in a pool of holy water, they are washed clean of filth. But, by bathing in a stagnant pond, they are contaminated with even more filth.


ਤੀਰਥੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੋ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ॥ 
theerathh pooraa sathiguroo jo anadhin har har naam dhhiaaeae ||
The True Guru is the Perfect Pool of Holy Water. Night and day, He meditates on the Name of the Lord, Har, Har.


ਓਹੁ ਆਪਿ ਛੁਟਾ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਿਉ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਛਡਾਏ ॥ 
ouhu aap shhuttaa kuttanb sio dhae har har naam sabh srisatt shhaddaaeae ||
He is saved, along with his family; bestowing the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, He saves the whole world.


ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਣੈ ਜੋ ਆਪਿ ਜਪੈ ਅਵਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਏ ॥੨॥ 
jan naanak this balihaaranai jo aap japai avaraa naam japaaeae ||2||
Servant Nanak is a sacrifice to one who himself chants the Naam, and inspires others to chant it as well. ||2||​ 

Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan​ 
Gurbani har alakh lakhiayaa​ 
Gurbani Gavo Bhaee​ 
charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​


----------



## Sardara123

mwrU mhlw 5 ]
pRB smrQ srb suK dwnw ]
ismrau nwmu hohu imhrvwnw ]
hir dwqw jIA jMq ByKwrI jnu bWCY jwcMgnw ]1]
mwgau jn DUir prm giq pwvau ]
jnm jnm kI mYlu imtwvau ]
dIrG rog imtih hir AauKiD hir inrmil rwpY mMgnw ]2]
sRvxI suxau ibml jsu suAwmI ]
eykw Et qjau ibKu kwmI ]
iniv iniv pwie lgau dws qyry kir suik®qu nwhI sMgnw ]3]
rsnw gux gwvY hir qyry ]
imtih kmwqy Avgux myry ]
ismir ismir suAwmI mnu jIvY pMc dUq qij qMgnw ]4]
crn kml jip boihiQ crIAY ]
sMqsMig imil swgru qrIAY ]
Arcw bMdn hir smq invwsI bwhuiV join n nµgnw ]5]
dws dwsn ko kir lyhu guopwlw ]
ik®pw inDwn dIn dieAwlw ]
sKw shweI pUrn prmysur imlu kdy n hovI BMgnw ]6]
mnu qnu Arip DrI hir AwgY ]
jnm jnm kw soieAw jwgY ]
ijs kw sw soeI pRiqpwlku hiq iqAwgI haumY hMqnw ]7]
jil Qil pUrn AMqrjwmI ]
Git Git rivAw ACl suAwmI ]
Brm BIiq KoeI guir pUrY eyku rivAw srbMgnw ]8]
jq kq pyKau pRB suK swgr ]
hir qoit BMfwr nwhI rqnwgr ]
Agh Agwh ikCu imiq nhI pweIAY so bUJY ijsu ikrpMgnw ]9]
CwqI sIql mnu qnu TMFw ]
jnm mrx kI imtvI fMJw ]
kru gih kwiF lIey pRiB ApunY AimE Dwir idRstMgnw ]10]
eyko eyku rivAw sB TweI ]
iqsu ibnu dUjw koeI nwhI ]
Awid miD AMiq pRBu rivAw iqRsn buJI BrmMgnw ]11]
guru prmysru guru goibMdu ]
guru krqw guru sd bKsMdu ]
gur jpu jwip jpq Plu pwieAw igAwn dIpku sMq sMgnw ]12]
jo pyKw so sBu ikCu suAwmI ]
jo sunxw so pRB kI bwnI ]
jo kIno so qumih krwieE srix shweI sMqh qnw ]13]
jwcku jwcY qumih ArwDY ]
piqq pwvn pUrn pRB swDY ]
eyko dwnu srb suK gux iniD Awn mMgn inhikMcnw ]14]
kwieAw pwqRü pRBu krxYhwrw ]
lgI lwig sMq sMgwrw ]
inrml soie bxI hir bwxI mnu nwim mjITY rMgnw ]15]
solh klw sMpUrn PilAw ]
Anq klw hoie Twkuru ciVAw ]
And ibnod hir nwim suK nwnk AMimRq rsu hir BuMcnw ]16]2]9]




Maaroo, Fifth Mehl:
God is the almighty Giver of all peace and joy.
Be merciful to me, that I may meditate in remembrance on Your Name.
The Lord is the Great Giver; all beings and creatures are beggars; His humble servants yearn to beg from Him. ||1||
I beg for the dust of the feet of the humble, that I may be blessed with the supreme status,
and the filth of countless lifetimes may be erased.
The chronic diseases are cured by the medicine of the Lord's Name; I beg to be imbued with the Immaculate Lord. ||2||
With my ears, I listen to the Pure Praises of my Lord and Master.
With the Support of the One Lord, I have abandoned corruption, sexuality and desire.
I humbly bow and fall at the feet of Your slaves; I do not hesitate to do good deeds. ||3||
O Lord, with my tongue I sing Your Glorious Praises.
The sins which I have committed are erased.
Meditating, meditating in remembrance on my Lord and Master, my mind lives; I am rid of the five oppressive demons. ||4||
Meditating on Your lotus feet, I have come aboard Your boat.
Joining the Society of the Saints, I cross over the world-ocean.
My flower-offering and worship is to realize that the Lord is dwelling alike in all; I shall not be reincarnated naked again. ||5||
Please make me the slave of Your slaves, O Lord of the world.
You are the treasure of Grace, merciful to the meek.
Meet with your companion and helper, the Perfect Transcendent Lord God; you shall never be separated from Him again. ||6||
I dedicate my mind and body, and place them in offering before the Lord.
Asleep for countless lifetimes, I have awakened.
He, to whom I belong, is my cherisher and nurturer. I have killed and discarded my murderous self-conceit. ||7||
The Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts, is pervading the water and the land.
The undeceivable Lord and Master is permeating each and every heart.
The Perfect Guru has demolished the wall of doubt, and now I see the One Lord pervading everywhere. ||8||
Wherever I look, there I see God, the ocean of peace.
The Lord's treasure is never exhausted; He is the storehouse of jewels.
He cannot be seized; He is inaccessible, and His limits cannot be found. He is realized when the Lord bestows His Grace. ||9||
My heart is cooled, and my mind and body are calmed and soothed.
The craving for birth and death is quenched.
Grasping hold of my hand, He has lifted me up and out; He has blessed me with His Ambrosial Glance of Grace. ||10||
The One and Only Lord is permeating and pervading everywhere.
There is none other than Him at all.
God permeates the beginning, the middle and the end; He has subdued my desires and doubts. ||11||
The Guru is the Transcendent Lord, the Guru is the Lord of the Universe.
The Guru is the Creator, the Guru is forever forgiving.
Meditating, chanting the Guru's Chant, I have obtained the fruits and rewards; in the Company of the Saints, I have been blessed with the lamp of spiritual wisdom. ||12||
Whatever I see, is my Lord and Master God.
Whatever I hear, is the Bani of God's Word.
Whatever I do, You make me do; You are the Sanctuary, the help and support of the Saints, Your children. ||13||
The beggar begs, and worships You in adoration.
You are the Purifier of the sinners, O Perfectly Holy Lord God.
Please bless me with this one gift, O treasure of all bliss and virtue; I do not ask for anything else. ||14||
God is the Creator of the body-vessel.
In the Society of the Saints, the dye is produced.
Through the Word of the Lord's Bani, one's reputation becomes immaculate, and the mind is colored by the dye of the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||15||
The sixteen powers, absolute perfection and fruitful rewards are obtained,
when the Lord and Master of infinite power is revealed.
The Lord's Name is Nanak's bliss, play and peace; he drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Lord. ||16||2||9||


----------



## Sardara123

Awpy siqguru Awip hir Awpy myil imlwie ]


----------



## Sardara123

sd jIvxu Arjunu Amolu AwjonI sMBau ]
BX BMjnu pr duK invwru Apwru AnµBau ]
Agh ghxu BRmu BRWiq dhxu sIqlu suK dwqau ]
AwsMBau audivAau purKu pUrn ibDwqau ]
nwnk Awid AMgd Amr siqgur sbid smwieAau ]
Dnu DMnu gurU rwmdws guru ijin pwrsu pris imlwieAau ]5]


O Guru Arjun, You are Eternal, Invaluable, Unborn, Self-existent,
the Destroyer of fear, the Dispeller of pain, Infinite and Fearless.
You have grasped the Ungraspable, and burnt away doubt and skepticism. You bestow cooling and soothing peace.
The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth.
First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad.
Blessed, blessed is Guru Raam Daas, the Philosopher's Stone, who transformed Guru Arjun unto Himself. ||5||


----------



## AmbarDhara

*Guru and God No Difference:*

*Guru is God Himself, He transforms His servant into Himself. *

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar
Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi
ANG 53
SGGS JI
SATGURU PRASAAD​ 

guru prmysru eyku hY sB mih rihAw smwie ] 
gur parmaysar ayk hai sabh meh rahi-aa samaa-ay.
The Guru and the Transcendent Lord are one and the same, pervading and permeating amongst all.​ 
ijn kau pUrib iliKAw syeI nwmu iDAwie ] 
jin ka-o poorab likhi-aa say-ee naam Dhi-aa-ay.
Those who have such pre-ordained destiny, meditate on the Naam.​ 
nwnk gur srxwgqI mrY n AwvY jwie ]4]30]100] 
naanak gur sarnaagatee marai na aavai jaa-ay. ||4||30||100||
Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Guru, who does not die, or come and go in reincarnation. ||4||30||100||​ 
Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan
Gurbani har alakh lakhiayaa
Gurbani Gavo Bhaee
charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​

Let us humbly pray for such a destiny that makes us the obedient servants of the True Guru.​


----------



## pk70

Sat Sree Akaal Jasleen Kaur ji
No you are not wrong, you are following Guru bachan, others are disrespecting Gur Sahiban, that is the difference" Akaalmurt Ajuni" was and is and will be always beyond birth and death.Compliments are taken in literally meaning and blind faith ruins the true message. Fifth Nanak says that if some calls Ikkonkar incarnates, cursed his/her tongue is! How Guru Sahiba himself can go "Akaalmurt Ajuni" declaration.
I am proud there Sikhs who follow Satguru Sahib ji.


----------



## AmbarDhara

God is Guru, Guru is God. Bani is Nirankaar. There is no difference between Guru and God.

These statements confuse those who think with a very limited vision. Not their fault either, This is also His OWN Play. Whenever He bestows His blessing only then one can see the TRUTH. Bani-Nirankaar tells us again and again about the Truth- HOW MANY CAN LISTEN?  

People read, do all different kinds of pooja(seva)- BUT they forget Guru Ji's words about listening and following His message in actual real sense. 

 'Guru is God and is beyond incarnation, all-pervading' 

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar
Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi
ANG 49
SGGS JI
SATGURU PRASAAD​ 
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
sireeraag mehalaa 5 ||
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:​ 
ਸੰਤ ਜਨਹੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਭਾਈਹੋ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥ 
santh janahu mil bhaaeeho sachaa naam samaal ||
Meet with the humble Saints, O Siblings of Destiny, and contemplate the True Name.​ 
ਤੋਸਾ ਬੰਧਹੁ ਜੀਅ ਕਾ ਐਥੈ ਓਥੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ 
thosaa bandhhahu jeea kaa aithhai outhhai naal ||
For the journey of the soul, gather those supplies which will go with you here and hereafter.​ 
ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਪਣੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲਿ ॥ 
gur poorae thae paaeeai apanee nadhar nihaal ||
These are obtained from the Perfect Guru, when God bestows His Glance of Grace.​ 
ਕਰਮਿ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਹੋਇ ਦਇਆਲੁ ॥੧॥ 
karam paraapath this hovai jis no haae dhaeiaal ||1||
Those unto whom He is Merciful, receive His Grace. ||1||​ 
ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
maerae man gur jaevadd avar n koe ||
O my mind, there is no other as great as the Guru.​ 
ਦੂਜਾ ਥਾਉ ਨ ਕੋ ਸੁਝੈ ਗੁਰ ਮੇਲੇ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
dhoojaa thhaao n ko sujhai gur maelae sach soe ||1|| rehaao ||
I cannot imagine any other place. The Guru leads me to meet the True Lord. ||1||Pause||​ 
ਸਗਲ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਿਲੇ ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਡਿਠਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
sagal padhaarathh this milae jin gur ddithaa jaae ||
Those who go to see the Guru obtain all treasures.​ 
ਗੁਰ ਚਰਣੀ ਜਿਨ ਮਨੁ ਲਗਾ ਸੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਮਾਇ ॥ 
gur charanee jin man lagaa sae vaddabhaagee maae ||
Those whose minds are attached to the Guru's Feet are very fortunate, O my mother.​ 
ਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ 
gur dhaathaa samarathh gur gur sabh mehi rehiaa samaae ||
The Guru is the Giver, the Guru is All-powerful. The Guru is All-pervading, contained amongst all.​ 
ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਡੁਬਦਾ ਲਏ ਤਰਾਇ ॥੨॥ 
gur paramaesar paarabreham gur ddubadhaa leae tharaae ||2||
The Guru is the Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God. The Guru lifts up and saves those who are drowning. ||2||​ 
ਕਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਕਰਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਸਮਰਥੁ ॥ 
kith mukh gur saalaaheeai karan kaaran samarathh ||
How shall I praise the Guru, the All-powerful Cause of causes?​ 
ਸੇ ਮਥੇ ਨਿਹਚਲ ਰਹੇ ਜਿਨ ਗੁਰਿ ਧਾਰਿਆ ਹਥੁ ॥ 
sae mathhae nihachal rehae jin gur dhhaariaa hathh ||
Those, upon whose foreheads the Guru has placed His Hand, remain steady and stable.​ 
ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਪੀਆਲਿਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਕਾ ਪਥੁ ॥ 
gur anmrith naam peeaaliaa janam maran kaa pathh ||
The Guru has led me to drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; He has released me from the cycle of birth and death.​ 
ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਭੈ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਦੁਖ ਲਥੁ ॥੩॥ 
gur paramaesar saeviaa bhai bhanjan dhukh lathh ||3||
I serve the Guru, the Transcendent Lord, the Dispeller of fear; my suffering has been taken away. ||3||​ 
Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar
Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi
ANG 1136
SGGS JI
SATGURU PRASAAD​ 
ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੧ ​ 
bhairo mehalaa 5 ghar 1
Bhairao, Fifth Mehl, First House:​ 
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ 
ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:​ 
ਸਗਲੀ ਥੀਤਿ ਪਾਸਿ ਡਾਰਿ ਰਾਖੀ ॥ਅਸਟਮ ਥੀਤਿ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਜਨਮਾ ਸੀ ॥੧॥ 
sagalee thheeth paas ddaar raakhee || asattam thheeth govindh janamaa see ||1||
Setting aside all other days, it is said that the Lord was born on the eighth lunar day. ||1||​ 
ਭਰਮਿ ਭੂਲੇ ਨਰ ਕਰਤ ਕਚਰਾਇਣ ॥ 
bharam bhoolae nar karath kacharaaein ||
Deluded and confused by doubt, the mortal practices falsehood.​ 
ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਤੇ ਰਹਤ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
janam maran thae rehath naaraaein ||1|| rehaao ||
The Lord is beyond birth and death. ||1||Pause||​ 
ਕਰਿ ਪੰਜੀਰੁ ਖਵਾਇਓ ਚੋਰ ॥ 
kar panjeer khavaaeiou chor ||
You prepare sweet treats and feed them to your stone god.​ 
ਓਹੁ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਰੇ ਸਾਕਤ ਢੋਰ ॥੨॥ 
ouhu janam n marai rae saakath dtor ||2||
God is not born, and He does not die, you foolish, faithless cynic! ||2||​ 
ਸਗਲ ਪਰਾਧ ਦੇਹਿ ਲੋਰੋਨੀ ॥ 
sagal paraadhh dhaehi loronee ||
You sing lullabyes to your stone god - this is the source of all your mistakes.​ 
ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥ 
so mukh jalo jith kehehi thaakur jonee ||3||
Let that mouth be burnt, which says that our Lord and Master is subject to birth. ||3||​ 
ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
janam n marai n aavai n jaae ||
He is not born, and He does not die; He does not come and go in reincarnation.​ 
ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥ 
naanak kaa prabh rehiou samaae ||4||1||
The God of Nanak is pervading and permeating everywhere. ||4||1||​ 
Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan
Gurbani har alakh lakhiayaa
Gurbani Gavo Bhaee
charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​ 
*Brahmgyani Aap Parmesar*​ 
Let us pray for Sarbat Da Bhalaa.​


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## BhagatSingh

pk70 said:


> Sat Sree Akaal Jasleen Kaur ji
> No you are not wrong, you are following Guru bachan, others are disrespecting Gur Sahiban, that is the difference" Akaalmurt Ajuni" was and is and will be always beyond birth and death.Compliments are taken in literally meaning and blind faith ruins the true message. Fifth Nanak says that if some calls Ikkonkar incarnates, cursed his/her tongue is! How Guru Sahiba himself can go "Akaalmurt Ajuni" declaration.
> I am proud there Sikhs who follow Satguru Sahib ji.


I agree!
What I dont get is AmbarDhara posts all these quotes from SGGS, and from the quotes it becomes quite clear that a guru is not God, although we are all part of him/her, we ARE NOT him/her. We cannot be because we are finite, and God is infinite. Still AmbarDhara, insists... I guess, us finite human beings cannot do anything. God created him to think that way, and it is up to him/her to decided what to do with Ambardhara. 
Peace out


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## spnadmin

Bhagat ji

You may want to go back and reconsider what Ambardhara is suggesting. It is very unlikely that Guru and Guruji are meant to be understood as  human, finite, incarnations of God, or sidhu's collecting money from the desperate. Unless of course I am mistaken, "Guru" ad "Guruji" refer to the Satgur, to God, whose voice is heard in the shabad, in the form of the Guru given us by Sri Guru Gobind Singh as the last Guru.

That's all!


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## Sardara123

1. Guru is God and God is Guru. There is no difference.

2. All is God, All is Guru.( Sabh Gobind Hai)

Our first very step is recognizing Guru as God, Only then the truth about- all is He Himself can be recognized(this what I moorakh believe). For those who cant see Guru as Waheguru Himself(I am not against what they think or believe- as they say what they can understand Guru as(kathna kathee na aavay toth), BUT this is what Guru Ji says):
A true sikh believes in Shabad, not in anything else. 

Guru Ji tells:

English Translation(SikhiToTheMax):

Gauree Poorbee, Fourth Mehl:
You are Merciful, the Destroyer of all pain. Please give me Your Ear and listen to my prayer.
Please unite me with the True Guru, my breath of life; through Him, O my Lord and Master, You are known. ||1||
O Lord, I acknowledge the True Guru as the Supreme Lord God.
I am foolish and ignorant, and my intellect is impure. Through the Teachings of the Guru, the True Guru, O Lord, I come to know You. ||1||Pause||
All the pleasures and enjoyments which I have seen - I have found them all to be bland and insipid.
I have tasted the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, by meeting the True Guru. It is sweet, like the juice of the sugarcane. ||2||
Those who have not met the Guru, the True Guru, are foolish and insane - they are faithless cynics.
Those who were pre-ordained to have no good karma at all - gazing into the lamp of emotional attachment, they are burnt, like moths in a flame. ||3||
Those whom You, in Your Mercy, have met, Lord, are committed to Your Service.
Servant Nanak chants the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Har. He is famous, and through the Guru's Teachings, He merges in the Name. ||4||4||18||56||
source: SikhiToTheMax

Punjabi Translation(source:GuruGranthDarpan):

(hy BweI!) mYN siqgurU ƒ (Awqmk jIvn ivc) rwm pwrbRhm dy brwbr dw mMinAw hY [ mYN mUrK sW, mhW mUrK sW, mYlI miq vwlw sW, gurU siqgurU dy aupdyS (dI brkiq) nwl mYN prmwqmw nwl jwx-pCwx pw leI hY [1[rhwau[
hy (jIvW dy) swry duK nws krn vwly suAwmI! qUM dieAw dw Gr hYN, myrI iek ArzoeI iDAwn nwl sux [ mYƒ auh siqgurU imlw jo myrI ijMd (dw shwrw) hY, ijs dI ikrpw qoN qyry nwl fUMGI sWJ pYNdI hY [1[
jgq dy ijqny BI hor hor (iksm dy) rs hn, mYN vyK ley hn, auh swry hI iP`ky hn iP`ky hn [ gurU ƒ iml ky mYN Awqmk jIvn dyx vwlw prmwqmw dw nwm-rs c`iKAw hY, auh rs im`Tw hY ijvyN gMny dw rs im`Tw huMdw hY [2[
ijnHW mnu`KW ƒ gurU nhIN imldw, auh mUrK prmwqmw nwloN tu`ty rihMdy hn, auh mwieAw dy ip`Cy J`ly hoey iPrdy hn [ (pr auhnW dy BI kIh v`s?) DuroN (prmwqmw ny) auhnW dy BwgW ivc (ieh) nIvyN kMm hI pw id`qy hn, auh mwieAw dy moh ivc ieauN sVdy rihMdy hn ijvyN dIvy ƒ vyK ky (pqMgy) [3[
hy pRBU! ijnHW mnu`KW ƒ qUM imhr kr ky (gurU-crnW ivc) imlWdw hYN, auh, hy hrI! qyrI syvw-BgqI ivc lgy rihMdy hn [ hy dws nwnk! auh prmwqmw dw nwm jp jm ky cmk pYNdy hn, gurU dI miq auqy qur ky auh pRBU dy nwm ivc lIn rihMdy hn [4[4[18[56[
source: PAGE 169 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).

Guru Shabad:
gauVI pUrbI mhlw 4 ]
qum dieAwl srb duK BMjn iek ibnau sunhu dy kwny ]
ijs qy qum hir jwny suAwmI so siqguru myil myrw pRwny ]1]
rwm hm siqgur pwrbRhm kir mwny ]
hm mUV mugD AsuD miq hoqy gur siqgur kY bcin hir hm jwny ]1] rhwau ]
ijqny rs An rs hm dyKy sB iqqny PIk PIkwny ]
hir kw nwmu AMimRq rsu cwiKAw imil siqgur mIT rs gwny ]2]
ijn kau guru siqguru nhI ByitAw qy swkq mUV idvwny ]
iqn ky krmhIn Duir pwey dyiK dIpku moih pcwny ]3]
ijn kau qum dieAw kir mylhu qy hir hir syv lgwny ]
jn nwnk hir hir hir jip pRgty miq gurmiq nwim smwny ]4]4]18]56]


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## pk70

BhagatSingh said:


> I agree!
> What I dont get is AmbarDhara posts all these quotes from SGGS, and from the quotes it becomes quite clear that a guru is not God, although we are all part of him/her, we ARE NOT him/her. We cannot be because we are finite, and God is infinite. Still AmbarDhara, insists... I guess, us finite human beings cannot do anything. God created him to think that way, and it is up to him/her to decided what to do with Ambardhara.
> Peace out


 
Bhagat Singh ji

In response read my new thread under Do Not Disrespect Satguru Nanak

It should help you from getting into confusion.


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## Pyramid

Gurbani signifies the fact that there is no distinction between God and Guru.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji was considered a Guru by the public when they found Creator qualities in Him.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji passed on Guru Gaddi to Guru Angad Dev Ji. So Guru Angad became Nanak  and so on untill Gurgaddi is passed on to Guru Granth Sahib Ji- Now Gurbani is Nanak. So is every realized Soul.

Nanak is the Creator Himself, present everywhere.

Waheguru

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## BhagatSingh

Pyramid said:


> Gurbani signifies the fact that there is no distinction between God and Guru.
> 
> Guru Nanak Dev Ji was considered a Guru by the public when they found Creator qualities in Him.
> 
> ...
> 
> Nanak is the Creator Himself, present everywhere.


The creator is not a person, Guru Nanak Dev JI is. The qualities of Guru Nanak are person qualities not creator qualities. Again saying Nanak is present everywhere? Was he present in both mecca and india when he was spreading his message? Hmm, maybe that's his secret, he didn't travel at all, he was present everywhere! Spread his message in a day and chilled the rest of his life doing meditation. :shifty: Hmm... Makes me wonder...


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## BhagatSingh

pk70 said:


> Bhagat Singh ji
> 
> In response read my new thread under Do Not Disrespect Satguru Nanak
> 
> It should help you from getting into confusion.


 
Please provide link. I really don't have time to look for it. Sorry ofr any inconvinience.

Never mind i found it.


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## BhagatSingh

aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji
> 
> You may want to go back and reconsider what Ambardhara is suggesting. It is very unlikely that Guru and Guruji are meant to be understood as human, finite, incarnations of God, or sidhu's collecting money from the desperate. Unless of course I am mistaken, "Guru" ad "Guruji" refer to the Satgur, to God, whose voice is heard in the shabad, in the form of the Guru given us by Sri Guru Gobind Singh as the last Guru.
> 
> That's all!


Ok Aad ji, I agree and that is my view exactly. I speak out to those people that bow in front of pictures, thinking that they are bowing to God. OR people that think Guru Nanak as in the person Guru Nanak, was/is God. I don't know why people say he was God when we know we are all part of God, and to Sikhs that should be REALLY obvious (because the Oneness of the human race concept if partially based on that, that were all part of the same God). So saying Guru Nanak was God is like saying you( Aad Ji) are God. We can say Guru Nanak had quite an intellect (perhaps he was more smarter than us), I totally agree. 
hmm maybe, someone should make a thread on that... now that would be interesting. :wink:


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## spnadmin

Baghat ji

*We do not quite agree*. Nanaak was Guru, Nanaak has not gone away. After 10 Nanaak's, 10 Gurus, the 11th, Guruji,  is also the Sat Guru. Guru is God.


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## BhagatSingh

aad0002 said:


> Baghat ji
> 
> *We do not quite agree*. Nanaak was Guru, Nanaak has not gone away. After 10 Nanaak's, 10 Gurus, the 11th, Guruji, is also the Sat Guru. Guru is God.


Thanks for spelling my name incorrectly.
Thanks for spelling Guru Nanak's name incorrectly as well.
No just kidding.

We do agree. I agree with what you just said. By Sat Guru if you mean a true guru then, yep, we agree. 
But Guru is not God. Although, God is Guru. Why guru is not God because Guru is a person. But God is Guru why? because He/She teaches us many things, etc.

You might disagree with that and say, Guru is God, God is Guru, there is no difference, it works both ways.
No it doesn't, why? Because if I say it is raining, the roads MUST be wet. This is like saying saying God is Guru. 

But, if I say the roads ARE wet, so it MUST be raining. This of course is not true, because of many reasons. This is like saying Guru is God.


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## BhagatSingh

aad0002 said:


> Baghat ji
> 
> *We do not quite agree*. Nanaak was Guru, Nanaak has not gone away. After 10 Nanaak's, 10 Gurus, the 11th, Guruji, is also the Sat Guru. Guru is God.


I noticed you are also referring to the passage, waho waho bani Nirankar hai. this is a metaphor, saying hey people look this Bani is so good, it's like God. 

Hmm, Guru is God could definetly be a metaphor. But is not literally true.

Peace out.


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## spnadmin

Hopeless positivist you are mate.  But you are a mate.


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## BhagatSingh

aad0002 said:


> Hopeless positivist you are mate.  But you are a mate.


Hehe , that I am.


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## Archived_Member1

BhagatSingh said:


> So saying Guru Nanak was God is like saying you( Aad Ji) are God. We can say Guru Nanak had quite an intellect (perhaps he was more smarter than us), I totally agree.
> hmm maybe, someone should make a thread on that... now that would be interesting. :wink:



the difference between God in us mortals and God in Guru is that when Guru spoke, it was God's words that came out of his mouth/pen.


Jaisī mai āvai kẖasam kī baṇī ṯaisṛā karī gi*ān vė lālo. 
As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo. 


or 
Naḏar ṯuḏẖ arḏās mėrī jinn āp upā*i*ā. 
It is Yours to bestow Your Grace, and it is mine to speak this prayer; You created Yourself. 


Ŧā mai kahi*ā kahaṇ jā ṯujẖai kahā*i*ā. ||2|| 
When I have spoken, I spoke as You made me speak. ||2|| 



there are many more verses which show that the words Guru spoke were the word of God himself.   until God starts speaking through you, i'd say Guru Sahib's greatness is more than simple intellect.


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## AmbarDhara

Sardara123 said:


> 1. Guru is God and God is Guru. There is no difference.
> 
> 2. All is God, All is Guru.( Sabh Gobind Hai)
> 
> Our first very step is recognizing Guru as God, Only then the truth about- all is He Himself can be recognized(this what I moorakh believe). For those who cant see Guru as Waheguru Himself(I am not against what they think or believe- as they say what they can understand Guru as(kathna kathee na aavay toth), BUT this is what Guru Ji says):
> A true sikh believes in Shabad, not in anything else.
> 
> Guru Ji tells:
> 
> English Translation(SikhiToTheMax):
> 
> Gauree Poorbee, Fourth Mehl:
> You are Merciful, the Destroyer of all pain. Please give me Your Ear and listen to my prayer.
> Please unite me with the True Guru, my breath of life; through Him, O my Lord and Master, You are known. ||1||
> O Lord, I acknowledge the True Guru as the Supreme Lord God.
> I am foolish and ignorant, and my intellect is impure. Through the Teachings of the Guru, the True Guru, O Lord, I come to know You. ||1||Pause||
> All the pleasures and enjoyments which I have seen - I have found them all to be bland and insipid.
> I have tasted the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, by meeting the True Guru. It is sweet, like the juice of the sugarcane. ||2||
> Those who have not met the Guru, the True Guru, are foolish and insane - they are faithless cynics.
> Those who were pre-ordained to have no good karma at all - gazing into the lamp of emotional attachment, they are burnt, like moths in a flame. ||3||
> Those whom You, in Your Mercy, have met, Lord, are committed to Your Service.
> Servant Nanak chants the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Har. He is famous, and through the Guru's Teachings, He merges in the Name. ||4||4||18||56||
> source: SikhiToTheMax
> 
> Punjabi Translation(source:GuruGranthDarpan):
> 
> (hy BweI!) mYN siqgurU ƒ (Awqmk jIvn ivc) rwm pwrbRhm dy brwbr dw mMinAw hY [ mYN mUrK sW, mhW mUrK sW, mYlI miq vwlw sW, gurU siqgurU dy aupdyS (dI brkiq) nwl mYN prmwqmw nwl jwx-pCwx pw leI hY [1[rhwau[
> hy (jIvW dy) swry duK nws krn vwly suAwmI! qUM dieAw dw Gr hYN, myrI iek ArzoeI iDAwn nwl sux [ mYƒ auh siqgurU imlw jo myrI ijMd (dw shwrw) hY, ijs dI ikrpw qoN qyry nwl fUMGI sWJ pYNdI hY [1[
> jgq dy ijqny BI hor hor (iksm dy) rs hn, mYN vyK ley hn, auh swry hI iP`ky hn iP`ky hn [ gurU ƒ iml ky mYN Awqmk jIvn dyx vwlw prmwqmw dw nwm-rs c`iKAw hY, auh rs im`Tw hY ijvyN gMny dw rs im`Tw huMdw hY [2[
> ijnHW mnu`KW ƒ gurU nhIN imldw, auh mUrK prmwqmw nwloN tu`ty rihMdy hn, auh mwieAw dy ip`Cy J`ly hoey iPrdy hn [ (pr auhnW dy BI kIh v`s?) DuroN (prmwqmw ny) auhnW dy BwgW ivc (ieh) nIvyN kMm hI pw id`qy hn, auh mwieAw dy moh ivc ieauN sVdy rihMdy hn ijvyN dIvy ƒ vyK ky (pqMgy) [3[
> hy pRBU! ijnHW mnu`KW ƒ qUM imhr kr ky (gurU-crnW ivc) imlWdw hYN, auh, hy hrI! qyrI syvw-BgqI ivc lgy rihMdy hn [ hy dws nwnk! auh prmwqmw dw nwm jp jm ky cmk pYNdy hn, gurU dI miq auqy qur ky auh pRBU dy nwm ivc lIn rihMdy hn [4[4[18[56[
> source: PAGE 169 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).
> 
> Guru Shabad:
> gauVI pUrbI mhlw 4 ]
> qum dieAwl srb duK BMjn iek ibnau sunhu dy kwny ]
> ijs qy qum hir jwny suAwmI so siqguru myil myrw pRwny ]1]
> rwm hm siqgur pwrbRhm kir mwny ]
> hm mUV mugD AsuD miq hoqy gur siqgur kY bcin hir hm jwny ]1] rhwau ]
> ijqny rs An rs hm dyKy sB iqqny PIk PIkwny ]
> hir kw nwmu AMimRq rsu cwiKAw imil siqgur mIT rs gwny ]2]
> ijn kau guru siqguru nhI ByitAw qy swkq mUV idvwny ]
> iqn ky krmhIn Duir pwey dyiK dIpku moih pcwny ]3]
> ijn kau qum dieAw kir mylhu qy hir hir syv lgwny ]
> jn nwnk hir hir hir jip pRgty miq gurmiq nwim smwny ]4]4]18]56]


 
Sardara123,

We are at peace only when we come under Guru's Sharan. Otherwise it is all he says/she says, never ending chatter .


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## AmbarDhara

Pyramid said:


> Gurbani signifies the fact that there is no distinction between God and Guru.
> 
> Guru Nanak Dev Ji was considered a Guru by the public when they found Creator qualities in Him.
> 
> Guru Nanak Dev Ji passed on Guru Gaddi to Guru Angad Dev Ji. So Guru Angad became Nanak and so on untill Gurgaddi is passed on to Guru Granth Sahib Ji- Now Gurbani is Nanak. So is every realized Soul.
> 
> Nanak is the Creator Himself, present everywhere.
> 
> Waheguru
> 
> Tuhada Das
> Yograj


 

Exactly.


----------



## Sardara123

Pyramid said:
			
		

> Gurbani signifies the fact that there is no distinction between God and Guru.
> 
> Guru Nanak Dev Ji was considered a Guru by the public when they found Creator qualities in Him.
> 
> Guru Nanak Dev Ji passed on Guru Gaddi to Guru Angad Dev Ji. So Guru Angad became Nanak and so on untill Gurgaddi is passed on to Guru Granth Sahib Ji- Now Gurbani is Nanak. So is every realized Soul.
> 
> Nanak is the Creator Himself, present everywhere.


 
Gurbani tells this truth in very simple to understand words. Gurbani is written for all, not just for a few with some hidden agenda behind it. Only those are opposed of talking Guru Shabad, who have their own selfish purposes. But Pyramid Ji, these kind of people are also needed- As it is said- nindak nairey raakheeay. They wash our dirty laundry. Thanks to them. 
Just dont get attached to them, learn from the experience. It makes the faith even stronger. 

Whenever I read anything under Gurmat Section that seems not in Line with Gurbani- I ask Guru Ji for answer. And I get it. Guru Ji explains it in many different ways over and over again. 

Guru The Ocean filled with Pearls.

Thanks for the wonderful explanation you gave about Guru Ji. I was trying to put this into words, you did it for me- let us say:Waheguru did it.


----------



## Sardara123

Guru Ji tells us again and again that everytime one talks about God-Truth, there will be opposition. A servant of Guru Ji doesn't get adversly effected by anything, only gains his her faith.

English Translation:
Raamkalee, Fourth Mehl:
Meeting with the humble servants of the Lord, I am in ecstasy; they preach the sublime sermon of the Lord.
The filth of evil-mindedness is totally washed away; joining the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, one is blessed with understanding. ||1||
O humble servant of the Lord, follow the Guru's Teachings, and chant the Name of the Lord.
Whoever hears and speaks it is liberated; chanting the Lord's Name, one is embellished with beauty. ||1||Pause||
If someone has supremely high destiny written on his forehead, the Lord leads him to meet the humble servants of the Lord.
Be merciful, and grant me the Blessed Vision of the Saints' Darshan, which shall rid me of all poverty and pain. ||2||
The Lord's people are good and sublime; the unfortunate ones do not like them at all.
The more the Lord's exalted servants speak of Him, the more the slanderers attack and sting them. ||3||
Cursed, cursed are the slanderers who do not like the humble, the friends and companions of the Lord.
Those who do not like the honor and glory of the Guru are faithless, black-faced thieves, who have turned their backs on the Lord. ||4||
Have mercy, have mercy, please save me, Dear Lord. I am meek and humble - I seek Your protection.
I am Your child, and You are my father, God. Please forgive servant Nanak and merge him with Yourself. ||5||2||
source: SikhiToTheMax

Punjabi Translation(source:GuruGranthDarpan):
ਅਰਥ: ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਭਗਤ-ਜਨੋ! (ਮੈਨੂੰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਿਖਿਆ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਲਈ ਮਦਦ ਕਰੋ। ਜੇਹੜਾ ਜੇਹੜਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸੁਣਦਾ ਹੈ (ਜਾਂ) ਉਚਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ (ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਤੋਂ) ਸੁਤੰਤਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪ ਜਪ ਕੇ ਉਹ ਸੋਹਣੇ ਜੀਵਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ।੧।ਰਹਾਉ।
ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਸੇਵਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲ ਕੇ (ਮਨ ਵਿਚ) ਆਨੰਦ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਸੇਵਕ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸੋਹਣੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਸੁਣਾ ਕੇ (ਸੁਣਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਦੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਆਨੰਦ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਵਿਚ ਮਿਲ ਕੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ (ਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ) ਅਕਲ ਸਿੱਖ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਉਸ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰੋਂ) ਭੈੜੀ ਮਤਿ ਵਾਲੀ ਸਾਰੀ ਮੈਲ ਦੂਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ।੧।
ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਜੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਮੱਥੇ ਉਤੇ ਚੰਗੇ ਭਾਗ ਜਾਗ ਪੈਣ, ਤਾਂ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਮਿਲਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ! ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ (ਮੈਨੂੰ) ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼, (ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਕਰ ਕੇ) ਸਾਰਾ ਦਰਿੱਦਰ ਦੁੱਖ ਦੂਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ।੨।
ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਬੰਦੇ ਸੋਹਣੇ (ਜੀਵਨ ਵਾਲੇ) ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਰ ਮੰਦ-ਭਾਗੀ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ (ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ) ਚੰਗਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੱਗਦਾ। ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਸੰਤ ਜਨ ਜਿਉਂ ਜਿਉਂ ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਤਿਉਂ ਤਿਉਂ ਉੱਚੇ ਜੀਵਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਬਣਦੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਰ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਜੀਵਨ ਇਉਂ ਲੱਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਡੰਗ ਵੱਜ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ।੩।
ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਨਿੰਦਕ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਫਿਟਕਾਰ-ਜੋਗ (ਜੀਵਨ ਵਾਲੇ) ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜੇ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਸੰਤ ਜਨ ਚੰਗੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੱਗਦੇ। ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਇੱਜ਼ਤ (ਹੁੰਦੀ) ਪਸੰਦ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਂਦੀ, ਉਹ ਗੁਰੂ ਵਲੋਂ ਮੂੰਹ ਮੋੜੀ ਰੱਖਦੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹ ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਭੀ ਚੋਰ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਭੀ ਮੂੰਹ ਦੇਣ-ਜੋਗੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ, ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ) ਉਹ ਭ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟੇ ਹੋਏ ਮੂੰਹ ਵਾਲੇ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।੪।
ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ! ਅਸੀ ਗਰੀਬ (ਜੀਵ) ਤੇਰੀ ਸਰਨ ਆਏ ਹਾਂ, ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ (ਸਾਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੀ) ਸਰਨ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਖੀ ਰੱਖੋ। ਹੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ! ਤੂੰ ਸਾਡਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਹੈਂ, ਅਸੀ ਤੇਰੇ ਬੱਚੇ ਹਾਂ। ਦਾਸ ਨਾਨਕ ਉਤੇ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਸ਼ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਟਿਕਾਈ ਰੱਖ।੫।੨।
source: PAGE 881 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).

Guru Shabad:
rwmklI mhlw 4 ]
rwm jnw imil BieAw Anµdw hir nIkI kQw sunwie ]
durmiq mYlu geI sB nIkil sqsMgiq imil buiD pwie ]1]
rwm jn gurmiq rwmu bolwie ]
jo jo suxY khY so mukqw rwm jpq sohwie ]1] rhwau ]
jy vf Bwg hovih muiK msqik hir rwm jnw Bytwie ]
drsnu sMq dyhu kir ikrpw sBu dwldu duKu lih jwie ]2]
hir ky log rwm jn nIky BwghIx n suKwie ]
ijau ijau rwm khih jn aUcy nr inMdk fMsu lgwie ]3]
iDRgu iDRgu nr inMdk ijn jn nhI Bwey hir ky sKw sKwie ]
sy hir ky cor vymuK muK kwly ijn gur kI pYj n Bwie ]4]
dieAw dieAw kir rwKhu hir jIau hm dIn qyrI srxwie ]
hm bwirk qum ipqw pRB myry jn nwnk bKis imlwie ]5]2]


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## BhagatSingh

jasleen_kaur said:


> the difference between God in us mortals and God in Guru is that when Guru spoke, it was God's words that came out of his mouth/pen.
> 
> 
> Jaisī mai āvai kẖasam kī baṇī ṯaisṛā karī gi*ān vė lālo.
> As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo.
> 
> 
> or
> Naḏar ṯuḏẖ arḏās mėrī jinn āp upā*i*ā.
> It is Yours to bestow Your Grace, and it is mine to speak this prayer; You created Yourself.
> 
> 
> Ŧā mai kahi*ā kahaṇ jā ṯujẖai kahā*i*ā. ||2||
> When I have spoken, I spoke as You made me speak. ||2||
> 
> 
> 
> there are many more verses which show that the words Guru spoke were the word of God himself. until God starts speaking through you, i'd say Guru Sahib's greatness is more than simple intellect.


Aren't we ALL dummies with God being the ventriloquist? So, God does speak through me, but I do not consider myself to be greater than any other organism. I think passage has to with getting rid of that haumai.
I think in that passage this is what Guru sahib is referring to. Guru sahib is praising God and saying I do nothing, it's all you. He is not saying, that God speaks only through me, and only people with something more than intellect.
This could also be part of that concept of oneness of humanity, where "God speaks through all of us, so tell me who is good and who is bad? Who is white and who is black?"
Peace out.


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## BhagatSingh

Sardara123 said:


> Gurbani tells this truth in very simple to understand words. Gurbani is written for all, not just for a few with some hidden agenda behind it. Only those are opposed of talking Guru Shabad, who have their own selfish purposes. But Pyramid Ji, these kind of people are also needed- As it is said- nindak nairey raakheeay. They wash our dirty laundry. Thanks to them.


Yes it is God who is speaking through them, they do nothing.  It is God who is doing the dirty laundry.
You should not make those people do your dirty laundry, learn to do your own laundry.


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## Archived_Member1

BhagatSingh said:


> Aren't we ALL dummies with God being the ventriloquist? So, God does speak through me, but I do not consider myself to be greater than any other organism. I think passage has to with getting rid of that haumai.
> I think in that passage this is what Guru sahib is referring to. Guru sahib is praising God and saying I do nothing, it's all you. He is not saying, that God speaks only through me, and only people with something more than intellect.
> This could also be part of that concept of oneness of humanity, where "God speaks through all of us, so tell me who is good and who is bad? Who is white and who is black?"
> Peace out.



forgive me, but are you putting yourself at the same level as Guru?  or am i misunderstanding you here?


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## Astroboy

Singh Bandhu (Surinder & Tejpal) - Mitar Pyare Noo


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## Sardara123

Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> guru prmysru eyko jwxu ] (864-9, goNf, mÚ 5)
> gur parmaysar ayko jaan.
> Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One.
> jo iqsu BwvY so prvwxu ]1] rhwau ] (864-9, goNf, mÚ 5)
> jo tis bhaavai so parvaan. ||1|| rahaa-o.
> Whatever pleases Him is acceptable and approved. ||1||Pause||


 

Thankyou so much for starting this thread. Reading through this thread creates a feeling of watching a video about- Guru Arjan Dev Ji vs Chandoo.

This thread has made this neech realize how to ignore the work of Iness(own and others both). It has turned into a great lesson for me moor. Before I used to be scared of talking about Guru Shabad like this - God and Guru no difference, All is He Himself, We need to accept whatever happens as His Will. But after reading this thread again and again, I know already what any other person who doesn't believe in God can come up with to oppose or try to manipulate the truth, there is nothing to be scared of. Guru Shabad is the Only Truth- Aad Sach Jugaad Sach Hai Bhi Sach Nanak Hosee Bhi Sach. 

Like a boot camp, It shaped me well. I am all set. 

Thank you.


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## Sikh80

*ਗੋਂਡ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਭਗਵੰਤੁ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਦੇਉ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਉ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਪੂਜ ਚਰਨ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਉ ॥੧॥ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੈ ਥਾਉ ॥ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਜਪਉ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਭਗਵਾਨੁ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਰਹਉ ਕਰ ਜੋਰਿ ॥ ਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਹੋਰੁ ॥੨॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਬੋਹਿਥੁ ਤਾਰੇ ਭਵ ਪਾਰਿ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਜਮ ਤੇ ਛੁਟਕਾਰਿ ॥ ਅੰਧਕਾਰ ਮਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਉਜਾਰਾ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਗਲ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ॥੩॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਮੇਟੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 864}*
******************************************************************

pdArQ:- BgvMqu—smrQw vwlw [ dyau—pRkwS-rUp pRBU [ AlK—A-l`K, ijs dw srUp ibAwn qoN pry hY [ AByau—A-Byau, ijs dw Byq nhIN pwieAw jw skdw [ srb pUj crn gur—gurU dy crn ijnHW dI pUjw swrI isRStI krdI hY [ syau—syauN, mYN syNvdw hW [1[
Avru Qwau—hor QW [ Anidnu—hr roz [ jpau—jpauN, mYN jpdw hW [1[rhwau[
igAwnu—Dwrimk crcw [ irdY—ihrdy ivc [ iDAwnu—smwDI [ rhau—rhauN, mYN rihMdw hW [ kr joir—(dovyN) h`Q joV ky [ horu—hor QW [2[
boihbu—jhwz [ Bv—sMswr-smuMdr [ qy—qoN [ Cutkwir—^lwsI [ AMDkwr—Gu`p hnyrw [ mMqRü—aupdyS, Sbd [ aujwrw—cwnx [ kY sMig—dI sMgiq ivc [ sgl—swry jIv [ insqwrw—pwr-auqwrw [3[
vfBwgI—v`fy BwgW nwl [ pweIAY—imldw hY [4[

********************************************************************

ArQ:- hy BweI! (mwieAw dy moh dy Gu`p hnyry ivcoN bcx leI) gurU qoN ibnw mYƒ koeI hor QW nhIN su`Jdw (ijs dw Awsrw lY skW [ so) mYN hr vyly gurU dw nwm hI jpdw hW (gurU dI Et q`kI bYTw hW) [1[rhwau[

hy BweI! (myrw) gurU (gurU dI srn hI) myry vwsqy (dyv-) pUjw hY, (myrw) gurU goibMd (dw rUp) hY [ myrw gurU prmwqmw (dw rUp) hY, gurU bVI smrQw dw mwlk hY [ myrw gurU aus pRkwS-rUp pRBU dw rUp hY ijs dw srUp ibAwn nhIN kIqw jw skdw Aqy ijs dw Byq nhIN pwieAw jw skdw [ mYN qW auhnW gur-crnW dI srn ipAw rihMdw hW ijnHW ƒ swrI isRStI pUjdI hY [1[
hy BweI! gurU hI myry vwsqy Dwrimk crcw hY, gurU (sdw myry) ihrdy ivc itikAw hoieAw hY, iehI myrI smwDI hY [ gurU aus Bgvwn dw rUp hY jo srb-ivAwpk hY Aqy isRStI dw pwlxhwr hY [ mYN (Awpxy) dovyN h`Q joV ky (sdw) gurU dI srn ipAw rihMdw hW [ gurU qoN ibnw mYƒ koeI hor Awsrw nhIN su`Jdw [2[

hy BweI! gurU jhwz hY jo sMswr-smuMdr qoN pwr lµGw lYNdw hY [ gurU dI srn ipAW jmW (dy fr) qoN ^lwsI iml jWdI hY [ (mwieAw dy moh dy) Gu`p hnyry ivc gurU dw aupdyS hI (Awqmk jIvn dw) cwnx dyNdw hY [ gurU dI sMgiq ivc irhW swry jIvW dw pwr-auqwrw ho jWdw hY [3[

hy BweI! v`fI iksmq nwl pUrw gurU iml imldw hY [ gurU dI srn ipAW koeI du`K poh nhIN skdw [ (ijs mnu`K dy ihrdy ivc) gurU dw Sbd (v`s pey aus dy AMdroN) koeI mnu`K (Awqmk jIvn dy aujwry ƒ) imtw nhIN skdw [ hy BweI! gurU nwnk aus prmwqmw dw rUp hY [4[7[9[ *******************************************************

[/FONT]I am no one to explain the meanings of Gubani, however as per that is available with me is the commentary of Dr. Sahib Singh ji.

I am psoting the relevant shabad and the lines that are being discussed are included in it.The lines in shabad and the meaning are colored in blue.

I am tempted to write this post as the post on 'Guru Nanak is the Guru and the lord' is equally affected by this post.

WE can rely upon Sahib singh ji's commentary as it is the only Teeka available on net and makes things easier so far as quoting from it is concerned.

I am inclined to be corrected if there is some flaw in the above.

It is the stated position Of Guru's as per the Basics of Sikhi.

Bhul Chuk Mauf


----------



## Sardara123

Daanveer said:


> ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਅਨਿ ਜੇ ਦੇਵੈ ਦੇਵਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
> gur kirapaa thae paaeean jae dhaevai dhaevanehaar ||
> By Guru's Grace, they are obtained, if the Great Giver gives them.
> 
> 
> *If There Is Guru Kirpa, Only then the truth can be realized*. Kaur-1 Ji.
> 
> This is so obvios from this thread, whatever one says about the 'Concept of ONE' te opposition party is seriosly engrossed in making a joke of Gurbani.
> 
> The reason behind can be many factors:
> 
> Theybelong to some anti-sikh propaganda group.
> 
> They dont know anything.
> 
> They are here to just have some fun.
> 
> Some people derive pleasure by irritating others, but here they dont even know what they doing.
> 
> God sent Nindaks just for all of us to learn more and strenthen our belief. Us here refers to all who believe in every word of Guru Granth sahib Ji.
> 
> Or some other reason
> 
> 
> Waheguru Bhalaa Karei


 
DaanVeer Ji,

Gurbani tells us that whenever anybody will say the Word of God loudly, it is going to hurt the non believers(manmukhs), and they will oppose. The inner koor cant let them hear(believe) Gurbani, Naam, GurShabad. 
Live Example here.

As you say, this happens to strenghthen our belief. I take it as a medicine/tonic/therapy. I read through it every once in a while. Boot Camp Experience.

I think this thread is a very good read. 

May God Bless all.
Let us pray for Sarbat Da Bhalaa


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## carolineislands

I am new to Sikhi.  All I do at this point is meditate in the morning, try to remember the Name of God in all I do, and read SGGS every day, along with some books on the lives of the Gurus and history of Sikhi.  So, please forgive me if I am off base here but this is the way I understand these references to God, Guru in the SGGS so far:

There are references to God the Creator as in Ek Ong Kar, then there are references to Guru Nanak.  There are also references to a Guru that are similar to what I think of as the Holy Spirit.  Now, I am coming from Christianity so there will be some comparisons.  That is for no reason other than to explain.  This Guru seems to be refered to as sort of an understanding that God blesses one with.  It is not God exactly but is part of God and seems to be a sort of guide and helper towards understanding God.  Almost like my voice... it is not me exactly but is part of me and I can use it to help you understand me and guide you.  Kind of like that.

They are part of one, and Guru is definitely part of God but Guru is not God entirely.  And the Earthly human teachers, our Gurus were sent by God as his representatives and helpers... 

Again, forgive me if I am wrong but this is the way I understand it.  And it does seem to me that it might be difficult for us to understand because humans seem to want to worship humans.  But I think its important to remember that the guiding principal of Guru Nanak was Ek Ong Kar -- there is only One God.

Respectfully,

Caroline


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## svea00

Sat sri akal Caroline ji!
You might know the sukhmani, if not read it, it´s beautiful.
On this topic I´d like to add the 8. ashtapadee. But as it´s too long to copy and paste all of ot I sized it down. I hope you don´t mind.

salok. Shalok: 
man saachaa mukh saachaa so-ay. The True One is on his mind, and the True One is upon his lips.
avar na paykhai aykas bin ko-ay. He sees only the One.
naanak ih lachhan barahm gi-aanee ho-ay. ||1|| O Nanak, these are the qualities of the God-conscious being. ||1|

naanak barahm gi-aanee aap parmaysur. ||6|| O Nanak, the God-conscious being is Himself the Supreme Lord God. ||6|| 

barahm gi-aanee kee keemat naahi. The God-conscious being cannot be appraised.
barahm gi-aanee kai sagal man maahi. The God-conscious being has all within his mind.
barahm gi-aanee kaa ka-un jaanai bhayd. Who can know the mystery of the God-conscious being? 
barahm gi-aanee ka-o sadaa adays. Forever bow to the God-conscious being. 
barahm gi-aanee kaa kathi-aa na jaa-ay aDhaakh-yar. The God-conscious being cannot be described in words.
barahm gi-aanee sarab kaa thaakur. The God-conscious being is the Lord and Master of all.
barahm gi-aanee kee mit ka-un bakhaanai. Who can describe the limits of the God-conscious being?
barahm gi-aanee kee gat barahm gi-aanee jaanai. Only the God-conscious being can know the state of the God-conscious being.
 barahm gi-aanee kaa ant na paar. The God-conscious being has no end or limitation.
naanak barahm gi-aanee ka-o sadaa namaskaar. ||7|| O Nanak, to the God-conscious being, bow forever in reverence. ||7||

barahm gi-aanee sabh sarisat kaa kartaa. The God-conscious being is the Creator of all the world. 
barahm gi-aanee sad jeevai nahee martaa. The God-conscious being lives forever, and does not die.
barahm gi-aanee mukat jugat jee-a kaa daataa. The God-conscious being is the Giver of the way of liberation of the soul.
barahm gi-aanee pooran purakh biDhaataa. The God-conscious being is the Perfect Supreme Being, who orchestrates all.
barahm gi-aanee anaath kaa naath. The God-conscious being is the helper of the helpless. 
barahm gi-aanee kaa sabh oopar haath. The God-conscious being extends his hand to all.
barahm gi-aanee kaa sagal akaar. The God-conscious being owns the entire creation.
barahm gi-aanee aap nirankaar. The God-conscious being is himself the Formless Lord. 
barahm gi-aanee kee sobhaa barahm gi-aanee banee. The glory of the God-conscious being belongs to the God-conscious being alone. 
naanak barahm gi-aanee sarab kaa Dhanee. ||8||8|| O Nanak, the God-conscious being is the Lord of all. ||8||8|| 

salok. Shalok: 
ur Dhaarai jo antar naam. One who enshrines the Naam within the heart,  
sarab mai paykhai bhagvaan. who sees the Lord God in all,
nimakh nimakh thaakur namaskaarai. who, each and every moment, bows in reverence to the Lord Master 
naanak oh apras sagal nistaarai. ||1|| - O Nanak, such a one is the true 'touch-nothing Saint', who emancipates everyone. ||1||


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## Astroboy

Here's another reference on God-conscious:-
Page 1373, Line 17
ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਭਇਆ ਪਾਇਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥
कबीर मनु सीतलु भइआ पाइआ ब्रहम गिआनु ॥
Kabīr man sīṯal bẖa&shy;i&shy;ā pā&shy;i&shy;ā barahm gi&shy;ān.
Kabeer, my mind is cooled and soothed; I have become *God-conscious*.
*Devotee Kabir*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


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## AmbarDhara

carolineislands said:


> I am new to Sikhi. All I do at this point is meditate in the morning, try to remember the Name of God in all I do, and read SGGS every day, along with some books on the lives of the Gurus and history of Sikhi. So, please forgive me if I am off base here but this is the way I understand these references to God, Guru in the SGGS so far:
> 
> There are references to God the Creator as in Ek Ong Kar, then there are references to Guru Nanak. There are also references to a Guru that are similar to what I think of as the Holy Spirit. Now, I am coming from Christianity so there will be some comparisons. That is for no reason other than to explain. This Guru seems to be refered to as sort of an understanding that God blesses one with. It is not God exactly but is part of God and seems to be a sort of guide and helper towards understanding God. Almost like my voice... it is not me exactly but is part of me and I can use it to help you understand me and guide you. Kind of like that.
> 
> They are part of one, and Guru is definitely part of God *but Guru is not God entirely.* And the Earthly human teachers, our Gurus were sent by God as his representatives and helpers...
> 
> Again, forgive me if I am wrong but this is the way I understand it. And it does seem to me that it might be difficult for us to understand because humans seem to want to worship humans. But I think its important to remember that the guiding principal of Guru Nanak was Ek Ong Kar -- there is only One God.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Caroline


 
Caroline Ji,

People have made several thousand defintions of Sikh Religion. We are not talking about scholarly evaluations of some type. We are talking Guru's Word. 

This is Gurmat Section. And I suppose we should talk about Gurmat(SGGS Ji) here.

In Guru Granth Sahib Ji, there are hundreds of references where it is told the there is no difference what so ever. There is no SECOND.  Svea Ji gave such a beautiful reference  post # 286.
Guru and God and a saint/brahmgyani/God realized cant be distinguished. Distinguishing them (calling them two seperate entities) is practicing DUALITY.

A very simple one in Assa Di Vaar:

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar
Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi
ANG 474
SGGS JI
SATGURU PRASAAD​ 
ਵਸਤੂ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਵਸਤੁ ਸਮਾਵੈ ਦੂਜੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥
vasathoo andhar vasath samaavai dhoojee hovai paas ||
One thing can be absorbed into another thing, but duality keeps them apart.​ 
Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan
Gurbani har alakh lakhiayaa
Gurbani Gavo Bhaee
charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​ 
In this entire thread there had been several times references had been mensioned about this Truth.​ 
You can believe wahtever you want to, but Gurmat says very clearly:​ 
There cant be any distinction.​


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## Archived_Member1

carolineislands said:


> There are references to God the Creator as in Ek Ong Kar, then there are references to Guru Nanak.  There are also references to a Guru that are similar to what I think of as the Holy Spirit.  Now, I am coming from Christianity so there will be some comparisons.  That is for no reason other than to explain.  This Guru seems to be refered to as sort of an understanding that God blesses one with.  It is not God exactly but is part of God and seems to be a sort of guide and helper towards understanding God.  Almost like my voice... it is not me exactly but is part of me and I can use it to help you understand me and guide you.  Kind of like that.
> 
> They are part of one, and Guru is definitely part of God but Guru is not God entirely.  And the Earthly human teachers, our Gurus were sent by God as his representatives and helpers...
> 
> Again, forgive me if I am wrong but this is the way I understand it.  And it does seem to me that it might be difficult for us to understand because humans seem to want to worship humans.  But I think its important to remember that the guiding principal of Guru Nanak was Ek Ong Kar -- there is only One God.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Caroline



the closest analogy i can think of to christianity is the following verse:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,                           and the Word was God John 1:1


compare to sikhi:

Baani  Guru Guru hai baani vich Bani amrit saare: Bani is Guru (God) and Guru  is Bani; within the whole of the Bani, Amrit (nectar) is present (sggs 982).

and

Gur Parmesur eko jaan: Guru and God are one and the  same (sggs 864).

both faiths agree...  the word IS God.  in our case, the word is Guru and Guru is God. 

i hope this isn't too confusing. 


regarding the holy spirit comparison, i usually think of Jot as comparable to the christian idea of holy spirit.  the jot is god's light, inside of every living thing.  we can't see it or touch it...  but it's there.  we just have to access it.


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## BhagatSingh

jasleen_kaur said:


> forgive me, but are you putting yourself at the same level as Guru? or am i misunderstanding you here?


Only in the sense that God speaks through me(and everything else) just as God spoke through Guru Nanak.


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## carolineislands

Thanks Jasleen.  That makes sense.  But when you say "Guru" and God are one, are you talking about Guru Nanak, the man,   or what the SGGS calls just plain Guru?  One of the first questions I asked in this forum was if Sikhs worship the Gurus, as in the Nanaks.  The answer was a resounding, "no" Sikhs do not worship Gurus as God because there is only one God and the Gurus were sent by him as messenger.

One thing about this board -- it certainly shows the philosophical differences within Sikhi.  

Guess that's true of all faiths.

Again, I mean no disrespect.  And thanks for the explanation.


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## BhagatSingh

Metaphor: a *figure of speech* in which an expression is used to refer to something that it *does not literally* denote in order to suggest a *similarity* 
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Here's a definition for those of you who don't know what a metaphor is.


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## BhagatSingh

carolineislands said:


> Thanks Jasleen. That makes sense. But when you say "Guru" and God are one, are you talking about Guru Nanak, the man, or what the SGGS calls just plain Guru? One of the first questions I asked in this forum was if Sikhs worship the Gurus, as in the Nanaks. The answer was a resounding, "no" Sikhs do not worship Gurus as God because there is only one God and the Gurus were sent by him as messenger.
> 
> One thing about this board -- it certainly shows the philosophical differences within Sikhi.
> 
> Guess that's true of all faiths.
> 
> Again, I mean no disrespect. And thanks for the explanation.


People who say Guru is God don't know how a metaphor works.


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## svea00

I´ve just read an interesting article that I found linked on the SPN. Sadly, I don´t remember the thread nor the person. 
It is a fine essay of Ek Ongkar Kaur who translated the Japji Sahib into English, on the difficulties there are in translating the Gurmukhi textes into English as there often are no right words or simple expressions in English for one Gurmukhi word. 
I particularly liked the Mool Mantar translation/explanation of hers. It made me understand a bit better and gave me answers to a previous posted question. 
---
"Ek Ong Kaar"  One Spirit Beyond,Moves within the Creation -Coordinating, Consolidating, Continually, Creating
To keep the Creator separate from the Creation is not the way of Guru Nanak.
To see them in a joyful play, intermingling, evolving, finding new expressions of Itself – that is his gift to us. “God” is not out there somewhere – pulling strings or watching in judgment. The Divine dwells inside every molecule as a Living Force, constantly expressing myriads of forms, though all forms are ultimately unified in the One.... It is One – Ek. Is has vibration, sound – Ong – and from sound, from vibration it express itself in form – Kaar. But the Oneness and the sound and the form are merged in every moment, in every thing – continually playing together. A current runs through the entire Creation. And like children playing with paints, Ek Ong Kaar never creates the same picture twice.

"Sat Naam" And this Spirit Within me is my True Identity.
If I can accept what Ek Ong Kaar means – then I must also accept the Presence of the Divine within myself....Guru Nanak tells us – it is that Divine Presence within us that is our real identity. Our real name. Our real existence.... But beyond these definitions, these stored memories, opinions and tastes of a lifetime – there is a Presence, a Life, a Spirit that will keep going. This Presence is part and parcel of the play of Ek Ong Kaar. And that is my True Identity. Sat Naam.

"Kartaa Purakh" It Does All And Causes All To be Done. It Protects me Through all incidents Of Time and Space.
Our mind tells us that, “I am the doer. I am the one who is acting. I am the creator. I am the manipulator. I am the one who can move things and create my life as I want to. I am.” The moment the mind hears that it is NOT the doer, it protests, creates doubts, arguments, becomes defensive and storms around. The mind can become competitive with Divinity, and try toprove that it IS the doer, it IS the protector – and nothing is greater than itself. We call this ego – and there’s a purpose for it. Because the intricate truth is that the Divine dwells in you, as well as in everything, so you are part of that Creative Power, and part of that Protective energy. You are not the entirety of it. But in your Spirit, you are part of it. The misunderstanding comes because of the mind. The purpose of the mind is to serve the soul. It is created to apply its intelligence to carry out the commands of Spirit. When a human being flows with the experience of her own Spirit and the mind serving that – then it is easy to understand Kartaa Purakh. ....

"Nirbhau - Nirvair"
When I have seen these truths of Ek Ong Kaar, Sat Naam, Kartaa Purakh – then how can I ever feel afraid again? How can I ever be angry? Fear and anger come from ego – from my limited perception needing to protect my own security and identity. But if the Divine has blessed me to understand this Force that runs through all, that runs through me and that Does everything – then whatever I experience is the Divine... Anger and fear cannot coexist with love. To fight and see the Divine in the enemy – to know the duty and yet to keep compassion in one’s heart – this is the way of the Sikh. Where fear and anger are – the Guru’s words are not. Where the Guru’s words are, fear and anger have no ground in which to grow....

"Akaal Moorat" Deathless It comes into form.
Moving beyond fear and anger, a perception, an awareness opens up within ourselves. And suddenly we can touch that Deathless Spirit inside. Our projection as a human begins to channel that Light. And we become the Image of the Undying while on the earth.... It is something that begins to blossom when we move beyond fear and anger. Because when we begin to live beyond fear and anger, and feel our power from the deepest, most true, most genuine love inside of ourselves – then the fact that we are Deathless begins to make itself known to our conscious mind. In that awareness, we can represent Deathless Divinity in our every day life. Through our words, through our actions, through our dress, through our every interaction. ...

"Ajoonee" In Itself, It has never been born.
Deathless in Form. Never been born. Though the mind has no capacity to logically map it, our Spirit has always existed and will continue to exist always. No death. No birth. No beginning. No end. Just one big play, one continuous learning – shifting from form to form through time and space. Feeling the reality of the Deathless Spirit inside, and understanding that there was never a beginning to us anyway– the mind can penetrate through the fog of time and surrender its finite ego to something far bigger.

"Saibhang" Flowing through the cycles of Birth and Death, It Moves By Its Own Purity and Projection.
Life needs definition to fulfill itself. And for most of us – the mind gives us our definition. We are “lawyers,” “engineers,” “lovers,” “ministers,” “writers,” “rebels,” – words, pictures, images that direct how we use our breath, our voice, our creativity to form our own lives. Guru Nanak gives us a different definition. Saibhang. It’s a definition that applies to the soul, to the spirit. And in that definition, our own inner purity flows through time and space, calling one experience after another forward until we can consciously merge back in Union with Ek Ong Kaar. With the Source. With the One. Completion. This definition applies once we understand that we are Deathless in Form, Never Been Born. ...Rather than looking to create a finite identity and security for ourselves, Saibhang asks us to see our life in the context of a much larger journey. And to keep flowing forward, to complete who we are, so that the mind can consciously merge into the Limitless of Self and allow that inner Divinity to complete the journey.

"Gur Prasaad" This understanding Shall come to you As a sweet blessing, As a gift, Through the Guru.
We need a teacher. We need a guide. Only an idiot believes that his or her mind can figure everything out on its own. .... It is the proof of God in a world that questions the existence of the Divine that so many teachers have come to give us a path home. For the Sikh, that Teacher is the Shabad, the Divinely-given Word of the Guru. And by meditating on that Sound Current of the Shabad, It trains the mind into the reality of all that the Mool Mantra has described. So we seek that blessing, that gift that comes through the Guru. ....
---
I´m sorry that it´s so long, I even shortened it a bit, hope you don´t mind. Maybe someone recognizes it again and sends the links. 

I know, that this explanation is hers and may be far away from the traditional one, but I believe as long I (or we) don´t have our own inner concept of it, we have to take what there is. I was greatful and a bit astonished (coming also from a christian background) as the sikhs at my local Gurdwara explainded to me, that there is no universal translation or explanation to the SGGS, everyone can find and experience his/her own. Thank you for this, Waheguru!


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## carolineislands

AmbarDhara said:


> Guru and God and a saint/brahmgyani/God realized cant be distinguished. Distinguishing them (calling them two seperate entities) is practicing DUALITY.




Dear AmbarDhara ji,

As I said, I am new and just reading the SGGS.  Even so I have already come across many many references to God by Guru Nanak.  He constantly talks of how he is nothing and powerless compared to God.  As in the passage where he says, "No power to speak, no power to keep silent. No power to beg, no power to give. No power to live, no power to die. No power to rule, with wealth and occult mental powers. No power to gain intuitive understanding, spiritual wisdom and meditation. No power to find the way to escape from the world. He alone has the Power in His Hands. He watches over all. O Nanak, no one is high or low."  (pardon the english version)

The author (Guru Nanak, correct?) says that he alone has no pwer to even begin to understand God and only God has that power.  This is a clear distinction between himself and God.  So, forgive me for saying so, but if I were to use your reasoning as I read the SGGS, wouldn't I have to conclude that Guru Nanak is "practicing duality?"

Please don't misunderstand me.  I am not suggesting that Guru Nanak dev ji practiced duality.  I fall deeper and deeper in love with his writings every day!  I am testing your reasoning against the writings of Guru Nanak.  

You said that SGGS makes it clear that there is to be no distinction, and yet Guru Nanak clearly makes the distinction himself, over and over again -- and quite passionately at that.

So how would you justify this contradiction?

Respectfully,

caroline


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## spnadmin

Humbly I ask you forgive my intrusion into this conversation, Caroline ji.

The duality is there until God's grants His blessing and His Naam is enshrined in the heart. Then the duality ends. We are powerless to do this for ourselves. 

Naanak is reflecting on the human condition condition -- speaking for us in the shabad.


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## carolineislands

Nanak is only speaking for us, but not expressing his own thoughts and feelings?  It reads as though he is speaking for himself.


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## spnadmin

No he is speaking for himself as well. He too is powerless without the kirpa of Waheguru.

But in the poetic form he is "giving voice" to the helplessness of the rest of us. Showing us in verse what our own predicaments are. Maybe "speaking out for us."


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## spnadmin

Svea00

These were some of the wonderful things to read in your recent post.  Last night I attended a concert by Snatam Kaur. There were two times last evening when these ideas were resoundingly real for me, and for many others in the audience. 

" "Ek Ong Kaar"  One Spirit Beyond,Moves within the Creation -Coordinating, Consolidating, Continually, Creating
To keep the Creator separate from the Creation is not the way of Guru Nanak.
To see them in a joyful play, intermingling, evolving, finding new expressions of Itself – that is his gift to us. “God” is not out there somewhere – pulling strings or watching in judgment. The Divine dwells inside every molecule as a Living Force, constantly expressing myriads of forms, though all forms are ultimately unified in the One.... It is One – Ek. Is has vibration, sound – Ong – and from sound, from vibration it express itself in form – Kaar. But the Oneness and the sound and the form are merged in every moment, in every thing – continually playing together. A current runs through the entire Creation. And like children playing with paints, Ek Ong Kaar never creates the same picture twice.

 "Sat Naam" And this Spirit Within me is my True Identity.
If I can accept what Ek Ong Kaar means – then I must also accept the Presence of the Divine within myself....Guru Nanak tells us – it is that Divine Presence within us that is our real identity. Our real name. Our real existence.... But beyond these definitions, these stored memories, opinions and tastes of a lifetime – there is a Presence, a Life, a Spirit that will keep going. This Presence is part and parcel of the play of Ek Ong Kaar. And that is my True Identity. Sat Naam."

 Snatam Kaur led a prolonged period of simran using the mantra _Sat Nam Sat Nam Sat Nam ji, Waheguru, Waheguru, Waheguru ji.  _I do not know how long it lasted, but over time the sound deepened and thickened until all there was but the sound and mind captured by rolling sensations of the mantra.

Another mantra was Sat Naryan Hari Naryan Sat Nam. This mantra lifted the audience higher and higher. When it was over, suddenly there was silence. And we slipped into the silence. Again I do not know for how long.

The Oneness is there.


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## AmbarDhara

Caroline Ji,

Humility is very impotant in Gurmat. 

To kill The Iness(sense of seperateness) humility is needed to be practiced. Oneness cant be realized, untill nothingness is practiced.

Nanak Bani Nirankaar Paarbrahm Parmesar
Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar Hai Tis Jevad Avar Na Koi
ANG 474
SGGS JI
SATGURU PRASAAD​ 

ਵਸਤੂ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਵਸਤੁ ਸਮਾਵੈ ਦੂਜੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥
vasathoo andhar vasath samaavai dhoojee hovai paas ||
One thing can be absorbed into another thing, but duality keeps them apart.​ 

Gurbani eis jag meh chaanan
Gurbani har alakh lakhiayaa
Gurbani Gavo Bhaee
charan kamal parabh kay nit Dhi-aava-o​ 

Sense of duality is the cause of seperateness. Over and Over again Guru Ji guide us in multiple ways to become like nothing, the lowly, meek.
*You must have heard that Guruji wants us to give Him our heads- that's what it is.*​


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## Archived_Member1

aad0002 said:


> Humbly I ask you forgive my intrusion into this conversation, Caroline ji.
> 
> The duality is there until God's grants His blessing and His Naam is enshrined in the heart. Then the duality ends. We are powerless to do this for ourselves.
> 
> Naanak is reflecting on the human condition condition -- speaking for us in the shabad.



i agree...   another example would be when Guru ji describes himself as the "lowest of the low".  now obviously we don't think of Guru as the lowest of the low...  but he's showing us that no matter how low we are (or we feel we are), we can still experience God.


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## Archived_Member1

carolineislands said:


> Thanks Jasleen.  That makes sense.  But when you say "Guru" and God are one, are you talking about Guru Nanak, the man,   or what the SGGS calls just plain Guru?  One of the first questions I asked in this forum was if Sikhs worship the Gurus, as in the Nanaks.  The answer was a resounding, "no" Sikhs do not worship Gurus as God because there is only one God and the Gurus were sent by him as messenger.
> 
> One thing about this board -- it certainly shows the philosophical differences within Sikhi.
> 
> Guess that's true of all faiths.
> 
> Again, I mean no disrespect.  And thanks for the explanation.



some people say that Guru and God are one.  Guru is God, Gurbani is God, but we only worship God as Akaal (without form).  No man can be called God, but God is in every man. 

others emphasize the "separateness" of man from God...  i don't think this is accurate in Sikhi.   ideally, when we realize God, we will understand that god is everything and without god there is nothing...  "sabh gobind hai, sabh gobind hai, gobind bin nahi koe"  

i'm having a really difficult time putting it into words. 

i suggest reading over the first few pages of the discussion again, as there are a lot of great shabads there which explain things better than i can.


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## AmbarDhara

When we say: Guru is God.

Guru and God are not two different things.

Guru is not a human lost in I me mera mine whatever.

Guru is ONE WITH GOD, where there is no difference left. A point where there is no going back to the Iness again.

We have 11 Gurus.
10 of them, people saw in human bodies, 1 of them people see in Scripture form. Lovingly all are called Nanak. (I say 'people saw' as their true devotees dont see them as a body form, devotees see them as infinite).

Are all those Gurus seperate entities? FOR HISTORIENS AND SCHOLARS yes or, may be yes or, may be not. But for a Bhagat, Guru's word is everything, Bhagat doesn't go after what historians are writting. He she goes after what Guru is telling him her. 

Was Nanak not present 600 years before? He Was present my dear, Jot Sarup was here, is here, will be here- Deathless, Ajooni. 

Guru Arjan Dev Ji: Ang#250
The Divine Guru is the True Guru, the Supreme Lord God, the Transcendent Lord; Nanak bows in humble reverence to the Lord, the Divine Guru. ||1||

In Guru Granth Sahib no stories or birth or death dates and stories are recorded. Because a God Oriented person has nothing to do with them. Guru ji never recorded that a brahmgyani is born. BUT Guru Ji DO TELL US- BRAHMGYANI SARIST KA KARTA, BRAHMGYANI KA NAHI BINAAS(God Oriented is the Creator, God Oriented never dies). Multiple times we are told, there is no distinction between God and the God Oriented. 



All 11 are Guru- THE SAME ONE GURU- NOT A SEPERATE ENTITY FROM NIRANKAAR.


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## Astroboy

aad0002 said:


> But in the poetic form he is "giving voice" to the helplessness of the rest of us. Showing us in verse what our own predicaments are. Maybe "speaking out for us."


 
Wow, the feeling to express this has always been there but to put it in words takes alot more. Wow aad Ji.


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## spnadmin

The bhagat Kal sings praises to Guru Naanak in the Sava-yay on Ang  1389 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. The bhagats were Hindu devotees but of devotion to One God. Their way was the way of bakhti or ecstatic devotion. So we see metaphors from Vendantic tradition in these verses. But the message is consistent throughout Guruji. Meditate single-mindedly on the Primal Lord. All beings of devotion and heroes of the Lord's way sing his praises because he is filled with the sublime essence of the Lord. The shabad tells us that He Naanak is the Avatar the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord. 

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ 
ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

  10    ਇਕ ਮਨਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਬਰਦਾਤਾ ॥ 
eik man purakh dhhiaae baradhaathaa ||
Meditate single-mindedly on the Primal Lord God, the Bestower of blessings.
 

 ਸੰਤ ਸਹਾਰੁ ਸਦਾ ਬਿਖਿਆਤਾ ॥ 
santh sehaar sadhaa bikhiaathaa ||
 He is the Helper and Support of the Saints, manifest forever.

 l  ਤਾਸੁ ਚਰਨ ਲੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸਾਵਉ ॥ 
thaas charan lae ridhai basaavo ||
Grasp His Feet and enshrine them in your heart.
 

 ਤਉ ਪਰਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਉ ॥੧॥ 
tho param guroo naanak gun gaavo ||1||
Then, let us sing the Glorious Praises of the most exalted Guru Nanak. ||1||


 
 ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਨ ਪਰਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਦੁਰਤ ਨਿਵਾਰਣ ਸਬਦ ਸਰੇ ॥ 
gaavo gun param guroo sukh saagar dhurath nivaaran sabadh sarae ||
I sing the Glorious Praises of the most exalted Guru Nanak, the Ocean of peace, the Eradicator of sins, the sacred pool of the Shabad, the Word of God.

  ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੰਭੀਰ ਧੀਰ ਮਤਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਜੋਗੀ ਜੰਗਮ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਧਰੇ ॥ 
gaavehi ganbheer dhheer math saagar jogee jangam dhhiaan dhharae ||
The beings of deep and profound understanding, oceans of wisdom, sing of Him; the Yogis and wandering hermits meditate on Him.

 ਾਵਹਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਦਿ ਭਗਤ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦਿਕ ਆਤਮ ਰਸੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਣਿਓ ॥ 
gaavehi eindhraadh bhagath prehilaadhik aatham ras jin jaaniou ||
Indra and devotees like Prahlaad, who know the joy of the soul, sing of Him.

 ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੨॥ 
kab kal sujas gaavo gur naanak raaj jog jin maaniou ||2||
KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||2||

 ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜਨਕਾਦਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਰਸ ਪੂਰਨ ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ॥ 
gaavehi janakaadh jugath jogaesur har ras pooran sarab kalaa ||
King Janak and the great Yogic heroes of the Lord's Way, sing the Praises of the All-powerful Primal Being, filled with the sublime essence of the Lord.
 

 ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਨਕਾਦਿ ਸਾਧ ਸਿਧਾਦਿਕ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਅਛਲ ਛਲਾ ॥ 
gaavehi sanakaadh saadhh sidhhaadhik mun jan gaavehi ashhal shhalaa ||
Sanak and Brahma's sons, the Saadhus and Siddhas, the silent sages and humble servants of the Lord sing the Praises of Guru Nanak, who cannot be deceived by the great deceiver.
 

 ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਣ ਧੋਮੁ ਅਟਲ ਮੰਡਲਵੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਾਇ ਰਸੁ ਜਾਣਿਓ ॥ 
gaavai gun dhhom attal manddalavai bhagath bhaae ras jaaniou ||
Dhoma the seer and Dhroo, whose realm is unmoving, sing the Glorious Praises of Guru Nanak, who knows the ecstasy of loving devotional worship.

 

 ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੩॥ 
kab kal sujas gaavo gur naanak raaj jog jin maaniou ||3||
KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||3||


 ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਪਿਲਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਰੋ ॥ 
gaavehi kapilaadh aadh jogaesur aparanpar avathaar varo ||
Kapila and the other Yogis sing of Guru Nanak. He is the Avataar, the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord.


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## Pyramid

Cyber Sangat Ji,

Following are a few lines from a post from another thread. Ambar Dhara explained a few things which I thought will be relevant to what is being disscussed here as well.


*Bhagti: Unshakable faith in Guru.*
*"*The term 'Guru' is described very many ways in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the reason being is - Guru is infinite, One cant point to just one line and say that- why Guru didn't say this here, why He said this here. Believe in one, and disbelieve in the other. This attitude is not bhagti. A bhagat believs in each and every WORD of his her GURU, Bhagat bows in front of Guru. And let the Guru take care of the rest. Bhagat sings every word of His Her Guru. 

A common saying is: Je Guru Kahe din ta din, Je Guru Kahe Raat ta Raat.
(If guru says it is day, it is day. If Guru says it is night, it is night). Bhagat doesnt look for : is it day or night, he she look for What Guru says. One has to leave his her own understanding out of the way. Bhagti is complete surrender. If I sing opposite to what Guru is singing: I will be acting as a Manmukh. 

And Guru is saying Gur Parmesar Eko Jaan, Gur Parmesar Naahi Bhed, Brahmgyani sarisht Ka Karta.(Understand that Guru and God are ONE, There is no distinction between Guru and God, God Oriented is the Creator of the Universe).

Guru Granth Sahib Ji's EVERY LINE IS GURU. *"*


*Practice of Humility:*
*"*This Question: Why Guru didnt add a literal line-"I am God"; but said that "Guru is God". 

To me moor, it teaches me to be utmost humble, don't boast of any achievements. If one is reading Gurbani carefully, can find this: If some one calls himself or herself a 'GURU' - cant be a Guru, beware of such a person.

Humilty and considering one self the lowest: is the recognition of a Saintly soul. apas ko jo jaaney neecha soi ganeeay sabh te oocha(the one who consider himself herself the lowest, is the highest of all).

Thanks a lot for bringing me moor close to Guru Ji.*"*

*Thanks Ambar.*

Tuhada Das
Yograj


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## Daanveer

Amabar's posts remind me of dear Surinder. I miss her.


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## Daanveer

Sardara123 said:


> DaanVeer Ji,
> 
> Gurbani tells us that whenever anybody will say the Word of God loudly, it is going to hurt the non believers(manmukhs), and they will oppose. The inner koor cant let them hear(believe) Gurbani, Naam, GurShabad.
> Live Example here.
> 
> As you say, this happens to strenghthen our belief. I take it as a medicine/tonic/therapy. I read through it every once in a while. Boot Camp Experience.
> 
> I think this thread is a very good read.
> 
> May God Bless all.
> Let us pray for Sarbat Da Bhalaa


 
boot camp


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## Daanveer

jasleen_kaur said:


> i agree... another example would be when Guru ji describes himself as the "lowest of the low". now obviously we don't think of Guru as the lowest of the low... but he's showing us that no matter how low we are (or we feel we are), we can still experience God.


 
Jasleen Kaur Ji,

I love the picture of khanda and Dastaar. 

Guru Ji has given us an example here: 
He is calling Himself low, so what we should do?
Call ourselves even lower than that.

Everytime I read Paatth, I read Guru addressing Himself as lowly, my tears start flowing, I dont know why? Can somebody help?

Thanks


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## Archived_Member1

Daanveer said:


> Jasleen Kaur Ji,
> 
> I love the picture of khanda and Dastaar.
> 
> Guru Ji has given us an example here:
> He is calling Himself low, so what we should do?
> Call ourselves even lower than that.
> 
> Everytime I read Paatth, I read Guru addressing Himself as lowly, my tears start flowing, I dont know why? Can somebody help?
> 
> Thanks



thank you. 

there are certain shabads that make me cry too...  i don't think it needs to be helped though.   tears are just another expression of love for Guru/God.


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## spnadmin

Daanveer said:


> Jasleen Kaur Ji,
> 
> I love the picture of khanda and Dastaar.
> 
> Guru Ji has given us an example here:
> He is calling Himself low, so what we should do?
> Call ourselves even lower than that.
> 
> Everytime I read Paatth, I read Guru addressing Himself as lowly, my tears start flowing, I dont know why? Can somebody help?
> 
> Thanks



There is an expression -- I am so happy I am close to tears.... or I could cry (another version of same). Or, I was laughing so hard that I cried. Sounds like a contradiction. Look at it this way. Gurbani talks about a moment when dust and gold look the same, when the distinctions of positive and negative emerge. It is the same thing here. All the intense emotions merge into one because you are so filled with appreciation of Guruji's message. You don't need help.:}{}{}:


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## Daanveer

jasleen_kaur said:


> thank you.
> 
> there are certain shabads that make me cry too... i don't think it needs to be helped though.  tears are just another expression of love for Guru/God.


 
Thankyou Jasleen Kaur Ji.


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## Daanveer

aad0002 said:


> There is an expression -- I am so happy I am close to tears.... or I could cry (another version of same). Or, I was laughing so hard that I cried. Sounds like a contradiction. Look at it this way. Gurbani talks about a moment when dust and gold look the same, when the distinctions of positive and negative emerge. It is the same thing here. All the intense emotions merge into one because you are so filled with appreciation of Guruji's message. You don't need help.:}{}{}:


 
Thankyou Aad Ji,

I think I am getting it now. You explained it really good. Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou.


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## spnadmin

You are welcome I think.

But I made a mistake -- I meant to say, when distinctions between positive and negative "merge" not "emerge" The distinctions are eliminated. Sorry. The point was opposites come together.


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## Daanveer

aad0002 said:


> You are welcome I think.
> 
> But I made a mistake -- I meant to say, when distinctions between positive and negative "merge" not "emerge" The distinctions are eliminated. Sorry. The point was opposites come together.


 
*You said before:* "****negative emerge. It is the same thing here. All the intense emotions merge into one *****"

*Your second merge indicated that there was a spelling error before. I am a language teacher, could easily guess clearly the meaning of what you wrote.*

*Thanks again.*


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## spnadmin

Thank you for being a good reader of faulty information.


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## jb20000

There is no difference between Guru Nanak & God. 

Guru Nanak is God, God Is Guru nanak.

Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Tu Hi Nirankar. 

God & Guru is the SAME!!!

We have Guru Granth Sahib ji...God with us.

Wjkk,wjkf


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## Ambarsaria

Very simple if one were to make it.



*God/Creator*
*Is "One"
*
Embodied in all including the Gurus and each and everyone of us
Gurus had the same God in them that is in the Sikhs or non-Sikhs or other creatures, life, creation, etc.
 


*Guru*
A teacher
A leader that helps you understand
Example:
Guru Granth Sahib ji helps you understand God/Creator
Guru's taught many things including the creation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to help us understand creation/God, practical living, saving us from superstitions, wrong methods or rituals to so called find God, etc.
 
 
Sat Sri Akal.


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## insearchofpeace

I always believed that as God is in everyone, every creature and even in the sand particles, everywhere inside out, I believe that( I might be wrong) God came and gave His message of Love in the form of GURU...So GOD is GURU and GURU is GOD, no difference. 
I sometimes give myself the example that as a mother who is  a teacher too, so at school her son calls her teacher but at home he calls her mother, but both mother and teacher are the same.
Please correct me where I am wrong.


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## Ambarsaria

Guru is a teacher.

What he teaches about is God.  Of course God is in the Gurus as much as in you.  Just as you won't like to be called God our Gurus insisted and asked people not to call them God either.  Instead they wanted to be treated as one of us.

Yes, in Sikhism God is everywhere and in everything as of one creation.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga

It is easily understandable that in Western Philosophies the word GOD is used for the Creator of the Universe.
The Sikh philosophy is fundamentally from SGGS .From Gurbaani we come to know that the Creator of the universe is being refered to a SYSTEM and this isto be known as GuR more specifically as GuRU GuR.and this SYSTEM is also being denoted by the very first SYMBOL in SGGS.
Thus there is no evidence in SGGS whereby we can conclude that the Creator is being refered by the word GOD.
The GOD as Creator being refered in western philosophies can not be known . Where as the Creator as being refered in Gurbaani can be known.
This should be important to understandwith respect to Sikh philosophy as given in SGGS.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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