# Being Naamdhari Is Sikhi



## Sikh Namdhari (Feb 8, 2007)

Fellow Sikh Brothers and Sisters, 

Sat-Sri Akaal 

I have refrained from contributing my humble opinions on this site for a good few months after members started to get abusive..
Under such circumstances it begins to get difficult to retain ones composure and answer with objectivity.

From the comments one reads on these forums it becomes clear that most, if not all, members are prejudiced against Namdhari Sikhs. There are so many lies written about Namdharis that one wonders at the capacity of ignorance and hatred in people who profess themselves to be 'Sikhs' (seekers of God?). 

I will try to counter some of the myths being spread about Namdharis. It is up to the individual to do their own research to discover what is true and what isn't before launching into hate filled assaults.

Firstly, let's get one fact straight:

*SIKHI* and *SIKHISM *are distinctly different. 

Gurus and Sikhs existed long before the coming of Satguru Nanak Devji.
Satguru Nanak Devji did not create a seperate religion (*ism*). His mission was to rid us of the impurities of our thoughts and to sit together as brothers before each other and before our Creator.

He being the Enlightened Soul, Superior Being, was capable through His words and Deeds to deliver that message to those who were ready to recieve it, no matter what their previous religious convictions. Those who wanted to accept His message revered Him as their Guru. The message was not new; only it needed renewing. Like today, men were at each others throats, trying to impose their own doctrines on those whose were different to their own.
If the weaker ones resisted they were put to the sword. _Is that the hidden message I hear on these forums, I wonder?_

*Satguru is a title given to God Personality*. (*SARGUN*)

Akal Purakh permeates the Universe as *NIRGUN. *

*When NIRGUN chooses to become SARGUN: SATGUR walks this planet and all others to reveal His existance to His Creation.*

Thus, according to the verses of Aad and Dasam Gurus' Granth Sahibs, the Formless (who is incomprehensible to mankind) takes the form of Man. 

How we interpret the Holy scriptures seems to me to be dependant on which denomination we belong to! Most of the subscribers to these websites belong to the section of Sikhs who would rather wash over the Shabads that describe God thus. Nearly all would not even read the Dasam Granth wherein Satguru Gobind Singhji narrates the deeds of the various Avtaars of Akaal Purakh. Modern day 'Sikhism' has evolved to encompass western thought and doctrine which is repulsed by the very idea of one individual having supernatural powers, unless, of course, he/she happens to be a Superhero from Marvel.

I have yet to understand where in the vastness of Sikh history the first 10 Satgurus ordained their followers to stop regarding Them as Satguru and follow the 'Shabad Guru'. Everyone who wants to tell me about 'Shabad Guru' points to the now famous verse in Sidh Gost:
_*'Sabad Guru, Surat Dhun Chela..'.* _

_THE MEANING OF THIS LINE IS NOT WHAT IT IS MADE OUT TO BE. _
_WITHIN *ALL *_OF THE GURBANI THE TWO WORDS *SHABAD* AND *GURU *APPEAR IN THE CONTEXT OF '*SABAD GURU KA'*, *SABAD GUR*, *GUR SABAD* OR *GURMANTR.* NOWHERE CAN ITS MEANING BE TAKEN TO MEAN THAT THE SABAD IS GURU.

THE CONTEXT IS ALWAYS: *GURU'S SHABAD. *

SATGURUJI HAVE FROM TIME TO TIME USED POETIC LICENCE TO OMIT OR ADD WORDS.

I ask you this: IF GURU NANAKDEVJI'S OBJECTIVE WAS TO ENJOIN HIS FOLLOWERS TO 'SHABAD GURU' WHY OH WHY DID HE CONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS WITH GURU ANGAD DEVJI? *Quotes only from the Gurbani, please. *

*WHY DO THE BHATS STATE CATEGORICALLY WITHIN THE GURBANI THAT IT IS THIS LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS, AS ORDAINED BY: ".. AADH PURAKH.." THAT WILL SEE OUT THIS AGE OF KALYUG? see: Sveyae Mahalae Pehilae Ke [pages 1389-90] *

*WHEN DID THE HOLY VERSES OF THE GURBANI (WHICH IS ETERNAL TRUTH) BECOME WRONG AND THE MODERN CONCEPT OF GURU BECOME TRUE? *


*NAMDHARI SIKHS, AS COMMANDED BY THEIR SATGURU BELIEVE IN HIM AS DESCRIBED BY ALL THE VERSES IN AADH AND DASAM GURUJIS' GRANTH SAHIBS.*

THERE ARE NO WRITTEN COMMANDS BY ANY OF OUR GURUS ANYWHERE WHERE THEY COMMAND THEIR SIKHS TO ABSTAIN FROM FOLLOWING A HUMAN GURU OR THAT THEY WERE GOING TO DISCONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS.

NAMDHARIS DO NOT BELIEVE ANY WRITINGS BY ORDINARY HUMANS AS GURUS' COMMAND. THEY ONLY BELIEVE IN THE WRITINGS OF OUR TRUE GURUS STARTING FROM SATGURU NANAK DEVJI.

All of the evidence presented to verify that Guru Gobind Singhji eliminated the lineage of Human Gurus is written by ordinary men. 

The Holy Granths say different. Guru Gobind Singhji in any of His own writings does not propogate the idea of Panth guru or Granth Guru. Hence why champions of this idea would not want you to read His writings in the Dasam Granth. 

In His opening verse of Chaubis Avtaar He writes:

_*'...Jab, Jab hott arist apaara, tab, tab Dhe dharat Avtaara...'*_

This is Guru Gobind Singhji's teaching of God's doctrine. Modern champions of the same Guruji would tell us that God does not take Avtaars! 

They will mistakenly repeat Gurujis earlier verses in which He extols the virtues of the *Nirgun* form of God. So what do our champs do? They ignore the Sargun teachings and adopt the Nirgun. Question their motives for doing so.

Nirgun is unobtainable; Sargun is required for Humans to become one with Nirgun. That is why in the Mool Manthr, after singing the euologies of Nirgun, Satgur Nanak Deviji ends with ..'Gur Parsad'. Such a God is attained through the Grace of His own manifestation as Guru. _A Guru is proactive._ A Guru will correct a misdeed. A Guru will hold your hand when you are unstable. Not, hypothetically by us concoting an idea or image in our minds, but in real time and life as a living, breathing entity. AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL:

*A SATGUR ADMINISTERS THE AMRIT: NAAM*

*IF YOU RECIEVE NAAM FROM SOMEONE WHO WEARS THE 5 SHASTER DURING AN AMRIT SANCHAR BUT HAS NO CONNECTION WITH HIS CREATOR OUTSIDE OF THE GURDWARA; WHO WILL TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR SOUL AFTER YOUR DEMISE, HOW CAN YOUR RECITATION OF THAT NAAM BRING YOU SALVATION? *

*ONLY BY RECEIVING NAAM FROM, OR THROUGH THE ORDER OF, ONE WHO IS IMMERSED IN NAAM HIMSELF 24 HOURS A DAY WITH EACH BREATH, WHO LEADS BY EXAMPLE HOW TO LIVE A LIFE THAT IS COLOURED BY NAAM CAN WE HOPE TO ACHIEVE SALVATION FROM THE CYCLE OF 840,000. *

*SUCH ARE THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN TO US IN THE HOLY GRANTH SAHIBS WHICH WE ALL READ.*


So now I ask you:

How is this belief harmful to Sikhi? How are the adherants to this belief not Sikhs? 

Guru Ram Singhji did by preaching and deed what no man can do and everything that Gurus had done before Him. How could those who came into contact with Him not call Him Guru? How can we, who have recieved the love and grace of Guru Jagjit Singhji not call Him Guru? Any more than those who came into Guru Nanakdevji's fold were compelled through His love to call Him their Master! Guru Ram Singhji taught nothing new, He merely, like Guru Nanakdevji, renewed a truth about love and freedom that mankind had forgotten. 

All of you on these sites who profess to be followers of that wonderous Gurudom of Guru Nanakdevji: give up your bigotries, give up Sikhi*sm *and embrase *SIKHI.* Set yourselves on a path of learning rather than teaching, for we are the students, the SIKHS of our great Master: The SATGURU.

Sat Sri Akaal


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## vaapaaraa (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

I will reply to your post but Are you even willing to follow Guru Granth Sahib ji shabad as the Guru?


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## jagmeet (Feb 16, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



Sikh Namdhari said:


> Gurus and Sikhs existed long before the coming of Satguru Nanak Devji.
> Satguru Nanak Devji did not create a seperate religion (*ism*). His mission was to rid us of the impurities of our thoughts and to sit together as brothers before each other and before our Creator.


 
While your statement on the 'mission' is correct, I don't think that 'Guru Nanak Dev ji did not want to create a new religion'.Tell me why do the namdharis keep hair?The work that was started by Guru Nanak Dev ji was 'completed' by Guru Gobind Singh ji.History (and majority) are on the side of mainstream Sikhs.  




> I have yet to understand where in the vastness of Sikh history the first 10 Satgurus ordained their followers to stop regarding Them as Satguru and follow the 'Shabad Guru'. Everyone who wants to tell me about 'Shabad Guru' points to the now famous verse in Sidh Gost:
> _*'Sabad Guru, Surat Dhun Chela..'.* _
> 
> _THE MEANING OF THIS LINE IS NOT WHAT IT IS MADE OUT TO BE. _
> ...


 
ok, then complete the meaning of the line from gurbani.

Reacting briefly to your remaining post--what do you say of 'Agya bhai akal ki...'? What would be the interest of anyone to propagate 'Guru Granth Sahib' as the  Guru--certainly there could be interest if someone proclaimed 'himself' as the guru.


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## simpy (Feb 16, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



Sikh Namdhari said:


> *A SATGUR ADMINISTERS THE AMRIT: NAAM*
> 
> *IF YOU RECIEVE NAAM FROM SOMEONE WHO WEARS THE 5 SHASTER DURING AN AMRIT SANCHAR BUT HAS NO CONNECTION WITH HIS CREATOR OUTSIDE OF THE GURDWARA; WHO WILL TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR SOUL AFTER YOUR DEMISE, HOW CAN YOUR RECITATION OF THAT NAAM BRING YOU SALVATION? *
> 
> ...


 
*Respected Sikh Naam Dhari Ji,*

*You are absolutely right on the issue of Amrit Sanchar….*
*Amrit bestowed by panj piaras in many Gurdwaras or otherwise is becoming no more than a drama these days. They claim that they are initiating the newly baptized whereas some of them, and in some cases all of them are far away from this concept in their real life.*

*Reht Maryada is fully shown in their outer appearance, but within they are totally unaware of the real maryada.*

*But on the other hand, when we claim that one must get it from a living Guru/SatGuru, because that person is immersed in Naam Himself… is not correct either.*

*Amrit is within. We need to recognize it. A Guru tells us this truth(this is what actual initiation is) and then tells us the way to reach that state of being. A Sikh/Follower/Student/Seeker has to follow the preaching and live the life accordingly. *


*No body can sell salvation. Even if you claim you are blessed by whosoever, the Soul has to go through the cleansing process. There is no other way out. Ultimate Blessing does not come so easy, one has to be absolutely pure.*

*You follow Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or any human living Guru or , spiritual books, or any religion… Nothing is going to work until the inner cleansing is done. *

*As many people are claiming today as well claimed in the past that they can liberate others, everybody or at least most would have been liberated by now………………….IS IT SO???????*

*So instead of condemning each other, we must do our own inner cleansing and encourage others to do the same, irrespective of their faith. *

*Start with respecting all, as HE IS ALL.*







*Please forgive me if i hurt anybody's feelings..*


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## Randip Singh (Feb 16, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



Sikh Namdhari said:


> Fellow Sikh Brothers and Sisters,
> 
> Sat-Sri Akaal
> 
> ...


 
Point 1 - According to Bani - 

Page 308, Line 5
*satgur kee banee sat sat kar jaanhu gursikhahu har kartaa aap muhhu kadhaa-ay.*
*O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it.
Guru Ram Das* - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

If Satgur ki Bani is the word of of Waheguru, then why do we need other human Guru's?

2) The Namdhari Baba has Jagjit Singh has issued an edict that no woman Sikh shall carry a Kirpan. This contradicts the edict of the 10th Master. Why does Jagjit Singh think he can contradict the word of the 10 th Master? 

3) Why are you quoting a few word out of Bani.....why not the entire Shabad?

4) Guruji may have mentioned Avtars etc, but if you read Dasam Granth, all these so called Avtars, become victims of "Kaal" or time........in otherwords they died.....they were not God's because God is immortal and cannot die.

5) Where is your proof that Sikhism has evolved from western idea's in its present form? Miracles were as abhorent to the Guru's and they are to Sikhs today:

page 14


siDh hovaa siDh laa-ee riDh aakhaa aa-o. 
If I were to become a Siddha, and work miracles, summon wealth 


gupat pargat ho-ay baisaa lok raakhai bhaa-o. 
and become invisible and visible at will, so that people would hold me in awe - 

mat daykh bhoolaa veesrai tayraa chit na aavai naa-o. ||3|| 
seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||3|| 

Miracles are not the Sikh way.

6) Pages 1389 to 1390 sing the praises of Guru Nanak........does not praise the need of a human Guru....

also praises Shabad which is in Bani:

Page 1389, Line 12

gaava-o gun param guroo sukh saagar durat nivaaran sabad saray.
I sing the Glorious Praises of the most exalted Guru Nanak, the Ocean of peace, the Eradicator of sins, the sacred pool of the Shabad, the Word of God.
*Bard Kal-sahar* - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


enough for now....will post later.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 16, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



Sikh Namdhari said:


> Fellow Sikh Brothers and Sisters,
> 
> Sat-Sri Akaal
> 
> ...


 
Point 1 - According to Bani - 

Page 308, Line 5
*satgur kee banee sat sat kar jaanhu gursikhahu har kartaa aap muhhu kadhaa-ay.*
*O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it.*
*Guru Ram Das* - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

If Satgur ki Bani is the word of of Waheguru, then why do we need other human Guru's?

2) The Namdhari Baba has Jagjit Singh has issued an edict that no woman Sikh shall carry a Kirpan. This contradicts the edict of the 10th Master. Why does Jagjit Singh think he can contradict the word of the 10 th Master? 

3) Why are you quoting a few word out of Bani.....why not the entire Shabad?

4) Guruji may have mentioned Avtars etc, but if you read Dasam Granth, all these so called Avtars, become victims of "Kaal" or time........in otherwords they died.....they were not God's because God is immortal and cannot die.

5) Where is your proof that Sikhism has evolved from western idea's in its present form? Miracles were as abhorent to the Guru's and they are to Sikhs today:

page 14


siDh hovaa siDh laa-ee riDh aakhaa aa-o. 
If I were to become a Siddha, and work miracles, summon wealth 


gupat pargat ho-ay baisaa lok raakhai bhaa-o. 
and become invisible and visible at will, so that people would hold me in awe - 

mat daykh bhoolaa veesrai tayraa chit na aavai naa-o. ||3|| 
seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||3|| 

Miracles are not the Sikh way.

6) Pages 1389 to 1390 sing the praises of Guru Nanak........does not praise the need of a human Guru....

also praises Shabad which is in Bani:

Page 1389, Line 12

gaava-o gun param guroo sukh saagar durat nivaaran sabad saray.
I sing the Glorious Praises of the most exalted Guru Nanak, the Ocean of peace, the Eradicator of sins, the sacred pool of the Shabad, the Word of God.
*Bard Kal-sahar* - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


enough for now....will post later.


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## Hai_Bhi_Sach (Feb 16, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*




> Fellow Sikh Brothers and Sisters,





> Sat-Sri Akaal
> 
> I have refrained from contributing my humble opinions on this site for a good few months after members started to get abusive..
> Under such circumstances it begins to get difficult to retain ones composure and answer with objectivity.
> ...


I do not agree with you on this point. Guru = Teacher, Gur = The Seed of Naam. The primary function of the Guru is to anoint one to the brotherhood and to sow the seed of Naam. Thereafter Guru tells you to go meditate and assimilate into the naam



> I ask you this: IF GURU NANAKDEVJI'S OBJECTIVE WAS TO ENJOIN HIS FOLLOWERS TO 'SHABAD GURU' WHY OH WHY DID HE CONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS WITH GURU ANGAD DEVJI? *Quotes only from the Gurbani, please. *


*When a new or refined idea is introduced into the main steam thinking or way of life, it takes a while to bring it home to the followers. The message of Guru Nanak Dev ji is even yet to be understood by so called Sikhs let alone off-chutes of Sikhism who have made a business out of telling people what the Bani says that fits their agenda.*

*If you study Guru Granth Sahib ji carefully, each subsequent guru has tried to elaborate the same message from a different point of view so that it can be brought home.*

*Had Guru Nanak Dev ji left us without someone holding the torch for a while then we would not have been any different to Islam or Christianity where the followers would have Engineered the bani to suit their agenda and watered down the message.*

*The irony of sikh followers is that we argue unnecessarily on the mechanics of the religion but refrain from following the teachings. *


> *WHY DO THE BHATS STATE CATEGORICALLY WITHIN THE GURBANI THAT IT IS THIS LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS, AS ORDAINED BY: ".. AADH PURAKH.." THAT WILL SEE OUT THIS AGE OF KALYUG? see: Sveyae Mahalae Pehilae Ke [pages 1389-90] *
> 
> *WHEN DID THE HOLY VERSES OF THE GURBANI (WHICH IS ETERNAL TRUTH) BECOME WRONG AND THE MODERN CONCEPT OF GURU BECOME TRUE? *


Bhatts have been granted a special place by the Gurus. What the Bhatts have said in the Sveyaes has been said whilst absorbed in love for the Guru. They have sung those praises in repentance of their earlier misconduct. It is not for us to challenge that. At the same time it shows that Our Gurus are very forgiving when one repents for their mistakes. In these verses Guru ji has accepted what is being said and given them honour. “Neechon Ooch kare mera Gobind”. Who are we to criticise.


> *NAMDHARI SIKHS, AS COMMANDED BY THEIR SATGURU BELIEVE IN HIM AS DESCRIBED BY **ALL THE VERSES IN AADH AND DASAM GURUJIS' GRANTH SAHIBS.*
> 
> THERE ARE NO WRITTEN COMMANDS BY ANY OF OUR GURUS ANYWHERE WHERE THEY COMMAND THEIR SIKHS TO ABSTAIN FROM FOLLOWING A HUMAN GURU OR THAT THEY WERE GOING TO DISCONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS.
> 
> ...




bwxI gurU gurU hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMimRqu swry ] 
Banee guroo guroo hai banee vich banee amrit saaray. 
Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Devine secrets are contained. 
(In this verse it has been established that Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani)

guru bwxI khY syvku jnu mwnY prqiK gurU insqwry ]5] Page 982
guro banee kahai sayvak jan maanai partakh guroo nistaaray. ||5|| 
In this verse (guru) means the combined effect of the Gur(The seed) and Guru(The Teacher) we will call it Guro for this explanation
Bani says whatever Guro says the humble servants believe it as if the Guru has spoken to them in person (in reality, face to face). Those that have such a strong belief the Guru, The Guru, personally emancipates him.

Guru ji in this verse has shown so much confidence that his followers really believe and accept Bani as the Guru in person. 

I am sorry I do not know what your agenda is. Mine is quite clear. This is the bani by our Fourth Guru. The idea of Guru Granth Sahib ji as final Guru emanates from here.



> The Holy Granths say different. Guru Gobind Singhji in any of His own writings does not propogate the idea of Panth guru or Granth Guru. Hence why champions of this idea would not want you to read His writings in the Dasam Granth.
> 
> In His opening verse of Chaubis Avtaar He writes:
> 
> ...


I do not believe in Dasam Granth as a Granth. Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not give a seal of approval of this Title. Dasam Granth as it is called did not exist at the time of Guru ji, The contents therein are a collection of Guru jis personally written poetry as well as a collection of Kacchi Bani (Bani written in the same poetic style as guru ji himself by the 52 poets but not undergone Guru ji,s scrutiny). The poetry mimics the style of Gurus ji’s bani, the collectors have assumed it to be Guru ji’s poetry and have assembled it in one book under the name of Dasam Granth. Various “Sant Matts” have made up hilarious combination of events that attempt to link themselves with the lineage of our Gurus. How many personal Sacrifes has the lineage of your Guru Made for the sake of Sikhism. There have been numerous opportunities since Guru GobindSingh ji.



> *A SATGUR ADMINISTERS THE AMRIT: NAAM*
> 
> *IF YOU RECIEVE NAAM FROM SOMEONE WHO WEARS THE 5 SHASTER DURING AN AMRIT SANCHAR BUT HAS NO CONNECTION WITH HIS CREATOR OUTSIDE OF THE GURDWARA; WHO WILL TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR SOUL AFTER YOUR DEMISE, HOW CAN YOUR RECITATION OF THAT NAAM BRING YOU SALVATION? *
> 
> ...


 

When the Panj pyaree enact the ceremony of Amrit Sanchar. The true Guru is abode them (Hazar Nazar). They are only performing a duty. Their personal life is of no consequence at that time. If they are not following the instructions of Guru ji in their personal lives then they will be answerable. Our third Guru ji says. 

jy ko gur qy vymuKu hovY ibnu siqgur mukiq n pwvY ] 
jay ko gur tay vaimukh hovai bin satgur mukat na paavai.
One who turns away from the Guru, and becomes baymukh - without the True Guru, he shall not find liberation.
pwvY mukiq n hor QY koeI puChu ibbykIAw jwey ] 
paavai mukat na hor thai ko-ee puchhahu bibaykee-aa jaa-ay.
He shall not find liberation anywhere else either; go and ask the wise ones about this.
Anyk jUnI Brim AwvY ivxu siqgur mukiq n pwey ] 
anayk joonee bharam aavai vin satgur mukat na paa-ay.
He shall wander through countless incarnations; without the True Guru, he shall not find liberation.
iPir mukiq pwey lwig crxI siqgurU sbdu suxwey ] 
fir mukat paa-ay laag charnee satguroo sabad sunaa-ay.
But liberation is attained, when one is attached to the feet of the True Guru, chanting the Word of the Shabad.
khY nwnku vIcwir dyKhu ivxu siqgur mukiq n pwey ]22] 
kahai naanak veechaar daykhhu vin satgur mukat na paa-ay. ||22||
Says Nanak, contemplate this and see, that without the True Guru, there is no liberation. ||22||
So you do not need to worry about that. It is all taken care of.


> So now I ask you:
> 
> How is this belief harmful to Sikhi? How are the adherants to this belief not Sikhs?
> 
> ...


 
We as Sikhs do have a Platform and that is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I myself do not condone having a human guru (in the form of a teacher – a guide) because at times it is necessary to clarify misunderstandings in interpretations of Guru ki Bani. But that can also be done via a Gurmukh. One that explains the Bani does not become a Guru in a Spiritual Sense and claim a seat among the Ten Gurus and Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Just as one that reads a letter written by a husband and sent through his colleague to his beloved wife who is illiterate and asks the deliverer to read it for her. The deliverer by reading the contents cannot assume or become an automatic replacement of her husband.

Having said that I have great admiration for Sri Jagjit Singh ji for keeping the traditions of Sikhi alive. Where the main stream Sikhs are set to demolish the memories of our beloved Gurus, Namdhari lineage has preserved the tradition or Kirtan in its traditional form. It is also my understanding that Sri Jagjit Singh ji does not consider himself as an equivalent of Guru Granth Sahib. He is seen to stop people bowing to him when he is in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is usually the followers that give these gentle god fearing people the title as a token of love for their service and the new generations fail to understand how it all started.

Finally, there is no bigotry in the message of Guru Granth Sahib ji. Bigotery lies in the understanding of those that misunderstand Gurus message and go off at a tangent. All the doors in four directions to Sikhism are open and are welcoming you back home.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh.
The above is my understanding and my belief and I stand to be corrected.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 17, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



Hai_Bhi_Sach said:


> Where the main stream Sikhs are set to demolish the memories of our beloved Gurus, Namdhari lineage has preserved the tradition or Kirtan in its traditional form. It is also my understanding that Sri Jagjit Singh ji does not consider himself as an equivalent of Guru Granth Sahib. He is seen to stop people bowing to him when he is in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. .




On the contrary, I have witnessed him specifically telling people to bow to him........

He lives in a big house surrounded in luxury in Bhaini.........has a fleet of cars.

There is nothing humble about this fellow.


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## Hai_Bhi_Sach (Feb 18, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*




> On the contrary, I have witnessed him specifically telling people to bow to him........


As I said "I stand to be corrected" - point taken - it is possible that you may have had a more closer encounter with him.




> He lives in a big house surrounded in luxury in Bhaini.........has a fleet of cars.


You would not expect Bill Gates to be living in a mid-terraced house in an over crowded street.  - This is a cult - This Chap has a huge following and regard him as Guru - Living in Luxury may not entirely be his own choice. Public opinion counts. Most of the time people are put in such positions. Look at Ranjit Singh Dhaddrianwale!!

He sponsors a number of his followers to learn music from musicians from a range of background. At least he seems to be sharing that wealth. How many of the main stream Sikh Gurdwares are even prepared to collective sponsor even one school. I woul say he has a plus point there. We must give credit where it is due. We must learn that can be learned to improve our own house.



> There is nothing humble about this fellow.


I have not seen this indvidual to be agressively propogating his cult. My comments on him are as an individual - again perhaps I have only seen one side of his personality.


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## tatkhalsa (Feb 25, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

WJKK WJKF 

ppl in here who study stuff like this will understand WHY namdharis, nirankaris, radha soamis, are all simply cults and not sikhs....

THIS IS BECAUSE THEY FAIL TO FOLLOW BASIC PRINCIPLES OF SIKHI/SIKHISM WHICH ARE BOTH THE SAME THING... if it is my knowledge of this topic which you would like to question..

studying religious philosophy, ethics and theology at cambridge university (not boasting lol) and for many research projects I have looked in to cults and found that they have been formed usually, through arguments with people or in order to gain something for a person.. (i.e. money)

THEREFORE I CONCLUDE THAT THESE CULTS WILL NEVER BE CONSIDERED IN MY EYES OR ANY OTHER ABIDING AND DEDICATED SINGH/SIKH'S EYES...

bhul chuk maaf karo if i have caused any1 offence, any more qs, dnt hesitate to pm me.

WJKK WJKF!


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## Randip Singh (Feb 26, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



Hai_Bhi_Sach said:


> You would not expect Bill Gates to be living in a mid-terraced house in an over crowded street. - This is a cult - This Chap has a huge following and regard him as Guru - Living in Luxury may not entirely be his own choice. Public opinion counts. Most of the time people are put in such positions. Look at Ranjit Singh Dhaddrianwale!!
> 
> He sponsors a number of his followers to learn music from musicians from a range of background. At least he seems to be sharing that wealth. How many of the main stream Sikh Gurdwares are even prepared to collective sponsor even one school. I woul say he has a plus point there. We must give credit where it is due. We must learn that can be learned to improve our own house.




This fellow claims he is the 16th Guru....lets see and compare him to say Guru Nanak.

1) Guru Nanak even though from a rich family, chose to live in a humble house doing the low caste profession of farming. What does Jagjit Singh do......lives in a mansion, has a personal international property portfolio, has a feet of cars, does no work.

2) Guru Nanak stayed with a pooly  low caste Vaish Tarkhan rather than a rich businessman. Jagjit Singh stays in the finest hotels and finest houses.

3) Guru Nanak saw women as the equal to men and women. Jagjit Singh openly discriminates between men and women.........he directly forbids women from wearing Kirpans.

I could go on, and mention also the lurid details of the alleged sex scandal he was involved in in Notiingham 15 years ago which led the entire Namdhari Sangat their to renounce him, and go back to mainstream Sikhism.



Hai_Bhi_Sach said:


> I have not seen this indvidual to be agressively propogating his cult. My comments on him are as an individual - again perhaps I have only seen one side of his personality.


 
He doesn't need to agresively propogate because he is already in the lap of luxury. The sooner this cult ends the better. It is nothing more than Brahminism with turbans.


----------



## tatkhalsa (Feb 26, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



randip singh said:


> [/color]
> 
> This fellow claims he is the 16th Guru....lets see and compare him to say Guru Nanak.
> 
> ...


 
GUR FATEH!


----------



## Sikh Namdhari (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Randip Singh should drown in shame

Is this what he has learnt from studying Gurbani? He is a lier and a nindhak of the highest order. 

1) Sri Satguru Jagjit Singhji has NO property on His name AT ALL. All of the properties He uses are registered under the Panth's name. As for His cars, we the Sangat make sure that our Guru has the best of what He has given us.

2)He stays at the houses of His Sikhs whenever He travels, be they poor or rich. I should know, because He stayed at my parents house in England, and believe me, a 2 bedroom terraced house in Birmingham is hardly the lap of luxury.

3) This comment shows how little Randip knows about Namdhari Sikhs in general. No Namdhari Sikh wears the Kirpan in a Gathra. This Hukamnama was ordained on the Sikhs by Satguru Ram Singhji over a hundred years ago. We keep the kirpan as a symbol in our Kanga.
Men AND women, both.

As for his last comment. I am not going to lower myself to his level by answering this. He has just shown how far from the truth and Sikhi he really is. 

I have not written this reply to badmash Randip. He is a bemukh nindhac, who if he reads the Gurbani he is championing, would know that to vilify someone (especially a Man who is known throughout the world as being a Sadhu Mahapursh, by his life's work) is punishable in the pits of Hell. Read Sukhmani Sahib. 

It is written so that people who read his blasphemy also get to know the truth.

As for ending 'this cult': the British Empire and his traitorous ancestors couldn't end this Mahan Panth of Guru Nanak Devji and Satguru Ram Singhji. 

People of his Cult of Hatred should relinquish their ego, fanatacism and do some Naam Simeran so that God may give them Smath to see His form in ALL Humanity.


----------



## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



Surinder Kaur Cheema said:


> *Respected Sikh Naam Dhari Ji,*
> 
> *You are absolutely right on the issue of Amrit Sanchar….*
> *Amrit bestowed by panj piaras in many Gurdwaras or otherwise is becoming no more than a drama these days. They claim that they are initiating the newly baptized whereas some of them, and in some cases all of them are far away from this concept in their real life.*
> ...


 

Respected Bhen ji

Nice view as always u give, As in other thread u mentioned that I misinterpret(But till now I have not recieved any correct interpretation from ur side), 
*So i will Just put some things from srigranth.org and will not give my Explanations, Please tell what u understand from it.*

*SO u WROTE*
*Amrit is within. We need to recognize it. A Guru tells us this truth(this is what actual initiation is) and then tells us the way to reach that state of being. *

*BUT HOW TO RECOGNISE THE AMRIT, GURU OPENS TENTH DOOR... I will not explain(because u will say misinterpret) more .. so just see the quotes from srigranth.org*
*AND TRUE GURU's INTIATION IS NOT TALKS BUT OPENING OF TENTH DOOR.*

*PAGE 441-----------------------------------------------------*
ਧਾਵਤੁ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਦਸਵਾ ਦੁਆਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ 
धावतु थम्हिआ सतिगुरि मिलिऐ दसवा दुआरु पाइआ ॥ 
Dhaavat thamiH-aa satgur mili-ai dasvaa du-aar paa-i-aa. 
The outgoing, wandering soul, upon meeting the True Guru, opens the Tenth Gate. 

ਤਿਥੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਸਹਜ ਧੁਨਿ ਉਪਜੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਜਗਤੁ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਰਹਾਇਆ ॥ 
तिथै अम्रित भोजनु सहज धुनि उपजै जितु सबदि जगतु थम्हि रहाइआ ॥ 
tithai amrit bhojan sahj Dhun upjai jit sabad jagat thamiH rahaa-i-aa. 
There, Ambrosial Nectar is food and the celestial music resounds; the world is held spell-bound by the music of the Word. 


PAGE 31--------------------------------------------

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਭਾਣੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹੈ ਸਹਜੇ ਪਾਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
गुर के भाणे विचि अम्रितु है सहजे पावै कोइ ॥ 
gur kay bhaanay vich amrit hai sehjay paavai ko-ay. 
The Amrit, the Ambrosial Nectar, is in the Guru's Will. With intuitive ease, it is obtained. 

ਜਿਨਾ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਤਿਨ ਪੀਆ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਖੋਇ ॥ 
जिना परापति तिन पीआ हउमै विचहु खोइ ॥ 
jinaa paraapat tin pee-aa ha-umai vichahu kho-ay. 
Those who are destined to have it, drink it in; their egotism is eradicated from within. 


PAGE 102----------------------------------------------------------

ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ 
सभ किछु घर महि बाहरि नाही ॥ 
sabh kichh ghar meh baahar naahee. 
Everything is within the home of the self; there is nothing beyond. 

ਬਾਹਰਿ ਟੋਲੈ ਸੋ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਹੀ ॥ 
बाहरि टोलै सो भरमि भुलाही ॥ 
baahar tolai so bharam bhulaahee. 
One who searches outside is deluded by doubt. 

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜਿਨੀ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਸੋ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ 
गुर परसादी जिनी अंतरि पाइआ सो अंतरि बाहरि सुहेला जीउ ॥१॥ 
gur parsaadee jinee antar paa-i-aa so antar baahar suhaylaa jee-o. ||1|| 
By Guru's Grace, one who has found the Lord within is happy, inwardly and outwardly. ||1|| 

ਝਿਮਿ ਝਿਮਿ ਵਰਸੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਰਾ ॥ 
झिमि झिमि वरसै अम्रित धारा ॥ 
jhim jhim varsai amrit Dhaaraa. 
Slowly, gently, drop by drop, the stream of nectar trickles down within. 

ਮਨੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਸੁਨਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥ 
मनु पीवै सुनि सबदु बीचारा ॥ 
man peevai sun sabad beechaaraa. 
The mind drinks it in, hearing and reflecting on the Word of the Shabad. 


PAGE 153--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ਉਲਟਿਓ ਕਮਲੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ 
उलटिओ कमलु ब्रहमु बीचारि ॥ 
ulti-o kamal barahm beechaar. 
The inverted heart-lotus has been turned upright, through reflective meditation on God. 

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਰ ਗਗਨਿ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰਿ ॥ 
अम्रित धार गगनि दस दुआरि ॥ 
amrit Dhaar gagan das du-aar. 
From the Sky of the Tenth Gate, the Ambrosial Nectar trickles down. 

ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਬੇਧਿਆ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ 
त्रिभवणु बेधिआ आपि मुरारि ॥१॥ 
taribhavan bayDhi-aa aap muraar. ||1|| 
The Lord Himself is pervading the three worlds. ||1|| 

ਰੇ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ 
रे मन मेरे भरमु न कीजै ॥ 
ray man mayray bharam na keejai. 
O my mind, do not give in to doubt. 

ਮਨਿ ਮਾਨਿਐ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
मनि मानिऐ अम्रित रसु पीजै ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 

*SO ALL STORY IS THAT, AMRIT COMES AFTER OPENING OF TENTH GATE, AND THAT TENTH GATE CAN BE OPENED ONLY BY PERFECT MASTER AS THE LINES EXPLAIN ABOVE*

*AND U WROTE----------------------------------------*
*(A Sikh/Follower/Student/Seeker has to follow the preaching and live the life accordingly. *


*No body can sell salvation. Even if you claim you are blessed by whosoever, the Soul has to go through the cleansing process. There is no other way out. Ultimate Blessing does not come so easy, one has to be absolutely pure.*
*

**You follow Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or any living Guru or , spiritual books, or any religion… Nothing is going to work until the inner cleansing is done.*

*As many people are claiming today as well claimed in the past that they can liberate others, everybody or at least most would have been liberated by now………………….IS IT SO???????** )*
*FOR THESE THINGS I WILL PUT SOME MORE GURUBANI..*
*BUT AFTER UR REPLY*

*FORGIVE ME PLEASE*

*GURUFATEH*


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



> Where the main stream Sikhs are set to demolish the memories of our beloved Gurus, Namdhari lineage has preserved the tradition or Kirtan in its traditional form.


 
Naamdharis are just on the payroll of BJP/RSS. 






*Payback : Parkash Badal hands a check *
*of Rs. 50 lakhs to his Naamdhari guru*

Panthic Weekly: Badal Promises Revival of Anti-Sikh ‘Namdhari’ Culthttp://www.panthic.org/news/125/ARTICLE/3132/2007-02-28.html


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## Sikh Namdhari (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Harjas Kaurji

Go and read up on the vast Golden history of the Namdhari Sikhs before making naive and ignorant statements. 

Parkash Singh Badal is doing a just service to the heros and martyrs of Punjab who laid down their lives during the British Empire and have been forgotten due to the efforts of Badal's predecessors who laid down the seeds of hatred against the Namdharis.
If he, as the leader of that organisation has woken up to the truth, isn't it time you forgot your brainwashing and woke up too?

He used to be the leader of agitations against Namdharis. 

There is so much you people need to learn. I implore you - LEARN.


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## Sikh Namdhari (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Namdharis are preservers of all that is good in Sikhi. Not destroyers. 

Learn first. Criticize later.


----------



## Anoop (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Ok...I am no expert like you guys, and i have not learnt much about sikhism or about the different castes, but i just want to ask one question...

What is NAAM...and what is SATSANG...
I heard that NAAM is the name of god, but i just dont understand what it is...i have a friend who taught me about NAAM, and Gyan...where he said he believes in SRI Ashutosh Maharaji, who believes in the teachings of sikhism and says that all religions are good, and that gyan is the purpose of life...i really don't understand what this is..he told me how maharaji has taught him about shabad which everyone has inside them...gods divine power... and that gyan is necessary to experience god...and that god is just an awesome experience...

I am just thinking...how hard it is for people to actually take Gyan, or to actually follow the teachings of many religions. How are we meant to know what is right and what is wrong... Theres like so many things to do, to experience god...knowing the NAAM, and satsang, and all this, its all confusing. I mean, i think its not fair on those who are not aware of this, how can god make it this difficult for those who know nothing about it. I am sure god wants to make things easier with the connection with him...I knw and understand that everything is god, and that only god exists...and I am sure that all we need is a disciplined mind and be good, and work hard...why all this 'GYAN and NAAM, and everything, i mean it sounds to complicated?... 

Is anyone here, willing to share all this information, and correct me if i am wrong, or misunderstood,

Thankyou, much appreciated, 
Anoop


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



> Parkash Singh Badal is doing a just service to the heros and martyrs of Punjab who laid down their lives during the British Empire.


 
And where are all the heroes and martyrs of Punjab who laid down their lives since the 1984 oppression? Be honest with facts. Badal and his fascist Hindutva sponsors are paying off Jagjit singh for his support of in the recent elections.



> If he (Badal), as the leader of that organisation (SAD/RSS/BJP) has woken up to the truth, isn't it time you forgot your brainwashing and woke up too?


 
uh...you have got to be kidding. The problem is aggressive Naamdhari missionary efforts for mainstream Sikhs to accept their propaganda. I can accept you being Naamdhari. I cannot accept you as a Sikh of our Guruji, because you have a lineage outside of Guruji. To accept you as Sikhs we have to accept your lineage of gurus as valid thus nullifying the authority of Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, because someone in human form is challenging to sit in His place. It is NEVER going to happen. The lineage of human Guru's is CLOSED after the tenth Master. 



> He used to be the leader of agitations against Namdharis.


I know exactly who he is. See the link below to clarify any misgivings.
(Support Sri Akal Takht Sahib)

Naamdharis are RSS/BJP traitors to the Panth just like Badal. Keep your government paycheck, your government collusion and silence in the face of oppression of Sikhs, and your Hindutva agenda of Hinduization of Gursikhi. Naamdharis impress no one but themselves.

Is it true that your lineage of gurus told you not to wear kirpan, but keep only as symbol since it is only for time of war? Yet, what do you call 1984 attack on Darbar Sahib and subsequent 20 year long oppression, illegal arrest and detainment without trial, torture and brutal execution of thousands of Sikhs? While this is happening, you expect people to believe that Guruji has kept the people disarmed and silent about it and receives paychecks from this government? This guru of yours is only a puppet of RSS/BJP/Hindutva masters. He, like Badal is only dancing for blood money.

Panthic Weekly: Illegitimate Charges Framed Against Sikh Nationalists


----------



## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

*Please Reply Surinder bhen ji 

*


sahilmakkar1983 said:


> Respected Bhen ji
> 
> Nice view as always u give, As in other thread u mentioned that I misinterpret(But till now I have not recieved any correct interpretation from ur side),
> *So i will Just put some things from srigranth.org and will not give my Explanations, Please tell what u understand from it.
> ...


----------



## gurc (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

WGJK WGJF,

I  hope and pray that there is no oppression of the Sikhs in the Punjabi.

Sat Sri Akal


----------



## drkhalsa (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Dear Sahil Makkar ji


thanks for your post

Plz  be p=atients when waiting for rep=ly and dont  p=ost the same p=ost several times it just make the top=ic difficult to be read by  others


Now a question from Nimana and low intellect myself

/





> *SO ALL STORY IS THAT, AMRIT COMES AFTER OPENING OF TENTH GATE, AND THAT TENTH GATE CAN BE OPENED ONLY BY PERFECT MASTER AS THE LINES EXPLAIN ABOVE*




Your story seems very interseting and i reaaly wish it to be true but one thing still i could not understand 

who is perfect guru/satguru you mentioned in post 

If p=ossible p=lz write more about this main character of story 




Thanks 


Jatinder Singh


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## Sikh Namdhari (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Harjas Kaurji

I can understand your passion for Sikhi. It is so refreshing to see such a vigour. However, my sister, your view that by being Namdhari one is 'nullifying the authority' of Aadh Sri Guru Granth Sahibji is *wrong.*

*Being Namdhari* means you accept the authority of all of our Gurus as per the instructions - nay: Commands, as written within the Gurujis' Granth Sahibs. IT MEANS YOU READ THE HOLY SCRIPTURES AND *OBEY* THE COMMANDS TO RECEIVE NAAM FROM A GURU WHO THEN GUIDES YOU, MAKES YOU REALISE YOUR MISTAKES, JUST AS GURU ARJUN DEVJI DID WITH BHAI GURDASSJI AND GURU GOBIND SINGHJI DID IN THE SAKHI OF BHAI JOGA.

*IT MEANS YOU HONOUR THE GURUJIS' GRANTH SAHIB(S) IN THE SAME FASHION THAT THE SIKHS DURING AND BEFORE THE TIMES OF GURU GOBIND SINGHJI DID.*

NOT BY IDOLATROUS WAYS OF WORSHIP.


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

DrKhalsa  Pajji Thanks,

For ur reply...

Perfect guru can be anyone, that cant be described, but thing to understand is only from Gurubani..
U should search on ur own..
Gurubani says, about perfect masters, it can be any character.. U tell me .. If GuruNanak dev ji comes in front of u, then will u be able to recognise him, If RAM comes in front of u.. can u recognise.. DO WE HAVE THAT EYE(DIB DRISHTI/TENTH GATE).. to recognise RAM/GURUNANAK dev ji...
*I hope u would say big NO here.. But Gurubani tells us about the EYE that we need to see him.
When guru comes to ur life... HE shows u atonce the GOD within u..
BUT TODAY we have lakhs of GURUs(that we call dehdharis)...
But u tell me any scriptures of our great SIKHI that says no need to go to any DEHDHARI(LIVING GURU).... Read any scripture(vedas.. quranas.. OK OK leave it, read only gurubani.. Var.. Bhai gurudas ji).. It will definately encourage u..to go for a GURU..

I think .. U will not find even a single page in SGGS .. WITHOUT A "GURU" WORD on it. EACH n every page is describing the grace of GURU..LIVING GURU.

So i m putting some more easy to understand quotes from gurubani .. that elaborates more .. WHAT IS PERFECT MASTER.. 

Wait I will put just after this reply...

GuruFateh

*


drkhalsa said:


> Dear Sahil Makkar ji
> 
> 
> thanks for your post
> ...


----------



## drkhalsa (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Dear Sahil makker


Thanks again for replying 

It is interesting to read ur posts but as already mentioned I am not blessed with sharp intellect as others so will try to go slowly





> Gurubani says, about perfect masters, it can be any character.. U tell me .. If GuruNanak dev ji comes in front of u, then will u be able to recognise him, If RAM comes in front of u.. can u recognise.. DO WE HAVE THAT EYE(DIB DRISHTI/TENTH GATE).. to recognise RAM/GURUNANAK dev ji...




well you said that it can be any character does this means that essentially this character will be in human form no other form possible?


Guru Nanak Dev ji /Shri Ram ji  in front of me.  if you mean the physical body  ?

as many learned people told me that all physical dimension of the universe that we see is Akal Purakh himself( HAR KA ROOP HA) the why is need to see him in specific form? 

You also said that without divya drishti / tenth gate/third eye  one cant recoznise Guru and also you said previously that Tenth gate is opened by Guru himself 
so here it is kind of dead lock  as tenth gate is opened by guru but again guru cant be recoznised whithout it openeing so kind of catch 22 situation

plz explain 




> But u tell me any scriptures of our great SIKHI that says no need to go to any DEHDHARI(LIVING GURU).... Read any scripture(vedas.. quranas.. OK OK leave it, read only gurubani.. Var.. Bhai gurudas ji).. It will definately encourage u..to go for a GURU..



Who is the Karta ( Doer ) in case of guru and any murakh like me respectively ?

Are two different doer is operating here?

Without Dib Drishti /tenth gate dont you think ( whicjh itself is opened by Guru) 
Dont you thinkthis makes  guru is always in better position to approach dvotee ( based on you r suggestions)



> I think .. U will not find even a single page in SGGS .. WITHOUT A "GURU" WORD on it. EACH n every page is describing the grace of GURU..LIVING GURU.



Does Living just means Human form 

Is akal purakh somewhat limited here when granting grace which made lay down resticted rules that garce has to flow through living human being



And at last would you  be kind enough to tell me who was Guru in you case I mean which character I am curious and excited to know !


Thanks for your post 
waiting for further guidance from you 



Jatinder Singh


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## GURVINDER (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

THANKS FOR GIVING VALUABLE INFORMATION


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

GuruFateh Drkhalsa paaji...

I will try to be as short as possible, describing one quote for each n every question..
If u want to go into any specific thing dipper, then dig me for that, I will try to elaborate it with some more quotes from SGGS.

ਪਾਤਾਲਾ  ਪਾਤਾਲ  ਲਖ  ਆਗਾਸਾ  ਆਗਾਸ  ॥ 
पाताला पाताल लख आगासा आगास ॥ 
paataalaa paataal lakh aagaasaa aagaas. 
There are nether worlds beneath nether worlds, and hundreds of thousands of heavenly worlds above. 

ਓੜਕ  ਓੜਕ  ਭਾਲਿ  ਥਕੇ  ਵੇਦ  ਕਹਨਿ  ਇਕ  ਵਾਤ  ॥ 
ओड़क ओड़क भालि थके वेद कहनि इक वात ॥ 
orhak orhak bhaal thakay vayd kahan ik vaat. 
The Vedas say that you can search and search for them all, until you grow weary. 

ਸਹਸ  ਅਠਾਰਹ  ਕਹਨਿ  ਕਤੇਬਾ  ਅਸੁਲੂ  ਇਕੁ  ਧਾਤੁ  ॥ 
सहस अठारह कहनि कतेबा असुलू इकु धातु ॥ 
sehas athaarah kahan kataybaa asuloo ik Dhaat. 
The scriptures say that there are 18,000 worlds, but in reality, there is only One Universe. 

ਲੇਖਾ  ਹੋਇ  ਤ  ਲਿਖੀਐ  ਲੇਖੈ  ਹੋਇ  ਵਿਣਾਸੁ  ॥ 
लेखा होइ त लिखीऐ लेखै होइ विणासु ॥ 
laykhaa ho-ay ta likee-ai laykhai ho-ay vinaas. 
If you try to write an account of this, you will surely finish yourself before you finish writing it. 

ਨਾਨਕ  ਵਡਾ  ਆਖੀਐ  ਆਪੇ  ਜਾਣੈ  ਆਪੁ  ॥੨੨॥ 
नानक वडा आखीऐ आपे जाणै आपु ॥२२॥ 
naanak vadaa aakhee-ai aapay jaanai aap. ||22|| 
O Nanak, call Him Great! He Himself knows Himself. ||22|| 


These lines are not related to ur question, but just read the last lines, Guru Nanak dev ji is clearly saying that.. Greatest is man, who knows himself.. 
DO U KNOW UR SELF.. WHO U ARE, FROM WHERE U CAME, AND WHERE U WILL GO

Now lets start with ur questions...


> well you said that it can be any character does this means that essentially this character will be in human form no other form possible?





> Guru Nanak Dev ji /Shri Ram ji  in front of me.  if you mean the physical body  ?


10 Gurus came????? Why???? To show us the actual form of GOD. Nirankar roop that can be seen.
JAB JAB HOT ARISHT APARA, TAB TAB DEH DHARE AVTARA.(SGGS)
Whenever there was fall of character/thinking of people.. at that time GOD comes in a body(PHYSICAL BODY).
He can come with any motive.. but GYAN never changes. (AAD SUCH, JUGAAD SUCH)
 


> as many learned people told me that all physical dimension of the universe that we see is Akal Purakh himself( HAR KA ROOP HA) the why is need to see him in specific form?



ਬਿਨੁ  ਗੁਰ  ਦੀਖਿਆ  ਕੈਸੇ  ਗਿਆਨੁ  ॥ 
बिनु गुर दीखिआ कैसे गिआनु ॥ 
bin gur deekhi-aa kaisay gi-aan. 
Without the Guru's Teachings, how can anyone obtain spiritual wisdom? 

ਬਿਨੁ  ਪੇਖੇ  ਕਹੁ  ਕੈਸੋ  ਧਿਆਨੁ  ॥ 
बिनु पेखे कहु कैसो धिआनु ॥ 
bin paykhay kaho kaiso Dhi-aan. 

Without seeing - tell me: how can anyone visualize in meditation? 

If u say meditation, then lines are clearly saying that , Without seeing , u cant visualize in meditation,and no meditaion is possible, 
and our Gurus has instructed us for DHYAN(meditaion).. So our devotion starts when we start seeing GOD.. (Ask questions if u have.. this thing can go very beyond in discussion)



> You also said that without divya drishti / tenth gate/third eye one cant recoznise Guru and also you said previously that Tenth gate is opened by Guru himself
> so here it is kind of dead lock as tenth gate is opened by guru but again guru cant be recoznised whithout it openeing so kind of catch 22 situation



*PAGE no 922---------------------------------------------------*
ਗੁਰ  ਪਰਸਾਦੀ  ਬੁਝਿਆ  ਜਾ  ਵੇਖਾ  ਹਰਿ  ਇਕੁ  ਹੈ  ਹਰਿ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਅਵਰੁ  ਨ  ਕੋਈ  ॥ 
गुर परसादी बुझिआ जा वेखा हरि इकु है हरि बिनु अवरु न कोई ॥ 
gur parsaadee bujhi-aa jaa vaykhaa har ik hai har bin avar na ko-ee. 
By Guru's Grace, I understand, and I see only the One Lord; there is no one except the Lord. 

ਕਹੈ  ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਏਹਿ  ਨੇਤ੍ਰ  ਅੰਧ  ਸੇ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ  ਮਿਲਿਐ  ਦਿਬ  ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ  ਹੋਈ  ॥੩੬॥ 
कहै नानकु एहि नेत्र अंध से सतिगुरि मिलिऐ दिब द्रिसटि होई ॥३६॥ 
kahai naanak ayhi naytar anDh say satgur mili-ai dib darisat ho-ee. ||36|| 
Says Nanak, these eyes were blind; but meeting the True Guru, they became all-seeing. ||36|| 


YES, IT  means that GURU is who . who can show u the GOD, and when he will open ur tenth door, u will atonce see the GOD(the form i will describe later) in urself.. and If u see GOD inside u, then it is indication of opening of Tenth Gate/Divine-eye(vision)( ਦਿਬ  ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟ).

If some Guru says that , I can show u then go n test him(yes its better to test a guru before initiation, koi PAAP nahi he, koi vi cheez lo dekh parakh ke layo)..
SOI GUR PURA AKHIYE, JO KATHANI AAN MILAYE(SGGS)
Only that guru is perfect, that is commitive to his words about showing u
If he SHOWS u then Accept him as GURU, other wise start ur search again..
Again start search for perfect guru.


plz explain 





> Who is the Karta ( Doer ) in case of guru and any murakh like me respectively ?
> Are two different doer is operating here?


*GUR AAP KARTA GUR PALLANHAR(SGGS)
*ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਨਾਦੰ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਵੇਦੰ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਰਹਿਆ  ਸਮਾਈ  ॥ 
गुरमुखि नादं गुरमुखि वेदं गुरमुखि रहिआ समाई ॥ 
gurmukh naadaN gurmukh vaydaN gurmukh rahi-aa samaa-ee. 
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading. 

ਗੁਰੁ  ਈਸਰੁ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਗੋਰਖੁ  ਬਰਮਾ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਪਾਰਬਤੀ  ਮਾਈ  ॥ 
गुरु ईसरु गुरु गोरखु बरमा गुरु पारबती माई ॥ 
gur eesar gur gorakh barmaa gur paarbatee maa-ee. 
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi. 
*
*NO there are not two doers..........guru as discussed in another forum is himself GOD,*
GURU ISAR GURU GORAKH BRAHM, GUR PARBATI MAI
I think this quote is clearly describing u, who is doer...
* 


> Without Dib Drishti /tenth gate dont you think ( whicjh itself is opened by Guru)
> Dont you thinkthis makes  guru is always in better position to approach dvotee ( based on you r suggestions)


YES absolutely true, I m putting some lines from gurubani to support ur view..

ਕਰਿ  ਕਿਰਪਾ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਮੇਲਿਓਨੁ  ਮੁਖਿ  ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਧਿਆਇਸੀ  ॥ 
करि किरपा सतिगुरु मेलिओनु मुखि गुरमुखि नामु धिआइसी ॥ 
kar kirpaa satgur mayli-on mukh gurmukh naam Dhi-aa-isee. 
By His Grace, He leads us to meet the True Guru; then, as Gurmukh, we chant the Lord's Name, and meditate on it. 

ਸੋ  ਕਰੇ  ਜਿ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਭਾਵਸੀ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਪੂਰਾ  ਘਰੀ  ਵਸਾਇਸੀ  ॥ 
सो करे जि सतिगुर भावसी गुरु पूरा घरी वसाइसी ॥ 
so karay je satgur bhaavsee gur pooraa gharee vasaa-isee. 
We do that which pleases the True Guru; the Perfect Guru comes to dwell in the home of the heart. 

ਜਿਨ  ਅੰਦਰਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਨਿਧਾਨੁ  ਹੈ  ਤਿਨ  ਕਾ  ਭਉ  ਸਭੁ  ਗਵਾਇਸੀ  ॥ 
जिन अंदरि नामु निधानु है तिन का भउ सभु गवाइसी ॥ 
jin andar naam niDhaan hai tin kaa bha-o sabh gavaa-isee. 
Those who have the treasure of the Naam deep within - all their fears are removed. 

ਜਿਨ  ਰਖਣ  ਕਉ  ਹਰਿ  ਆਪਿ  ਹੋਇ  ਹੋਰ  ਕੇਤੀ  ਝਖਿ  ਝਖਿ  ਜਾਇਸੀ  ॥ 
जिन रखण कउ हरि आपि होइ होर केती झखि झखि जाइसी ॥ 
jin rakhan ka-o har aap ho-ay hor kaytee jhakh jhakh jaa-isee. 
They are protected by the Lord Himself; others struggle and fight against them, but they only come to death. 

ਜਨ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਧਿਆਇ  ਤੂ  ਹਰਿ  ਹਲਤਿ  ਪਲਤਿ  ਛੋਡਾਇਸੀ  ॥੧॥ 
जन नानक नामु धिआइ तू हरि हलति पलति छोडाइसी ॥१॥ 
jan naanak naam Dhi-aa-ay too har halat palat chhodaa-isee. ||1|| 
O servant Nanak, meditate on the Naam; the Lord shall deliver you, here and hereafter. ||1|| 
*Yes it is true, He himself will call u, BUT I WANT TO SAY, JUST LISTEN TO HIS/HER call , whenever he/she(true GURU) calls u.. and this call can come from anyone, any devotee too, from some media too, thats call, he will not come to call u at ur home always(although this is also possible)...
but thirsty should search for well, and if he has desire than he will search that guru too,
RAB NAAL MILNA AASAAN HE, PAR GURU PURA MILNA AASAAN NAHI HE.. 
eh such he.. gurubani kehndi he..
*Please bhayiya kabhi aisa guru awaz de, jo kahe aayo mere bacho, mein tvannu RAB vikha sakda, te jaana jaroor, labhna jarror,
These is aim of life.
 


> Does Living just means Human form
> 
> Is akal purakh somewhat limited here when granting grace which made lay down resticted rules that garce has to flow through living human being


YES NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.. what does LIVING means to u...
Does living means to be any non-living things...





> And at last would you be kind enough to tell me who was Guru in you case I mean which character I am curious and excited to know !


YES, NICE QUESTION.. IT would be a great moment for me to tell u the name of such a divine personality
but m not here to advertise for my GURU, but to request u, that follow gurubani to reach the true master on ur own, search for a perfect master, whoever shows u GOD is perfect, NOT only mine. 
 



> Thanks for your post
> waiting for further guidance from you


NO need to say thanks, its all grace of GOD, and m not guiding u, m just exploring some gurubani in front of u,

While writing such a big reply, some mistake may be possible, please forgive me for that

Gurufateh, Raj karega khalsa............


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## kaur-1 (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



Sikh Namdhari said:


> Harjas Kaurji
> 
> I can understand your passion for Sikhi. It is so refreshing to see such a vigour. However, my sister, your view that by being Namdhari one is 'nullifying the authority' of Aadh Sri Guru Granth Sahibji is *wrong.*
> 
> ...



Dear 'Sikh Namdhari' ji, May I ask why then do you call Guru Granth sahib ji "Aad"?


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

It is interesting to see how people start defending their groups as the only gateway to 'salvation' a new 'revelation' that no one else in Sikhi has been bestowed upon except the cults who hv bifurcated themselves from Sikhi in the name of a man/men( mind you we have not got any women as 'Satgurus' yet, may be the sexism from the macho 'satgurus'). Not a sign of Sikhi equality.

First and foremost lets define what Sikhi is:-

Lots of us still refer to Sikhi as a religion, full of dogmas of dos and don'ts based on personalities like Judaism (Messiah in coming), Christianity(Jesus), Islam (Mohammed) and Hinduism (many deities personified as gods and goddesses). We tend to compare sikhi with these religions, each of which claims to have the ONLY WAY to seek IK ONG KAAR. In other words all the above personality based religions are exclusive, enclosed by walls erected with bricksand mortar called dogmas. In order for them to lure the followers, they offer their exclusively concocted snake oil (secret recipe) to the potential recruits as the only ticket to an imaginary place called Heaven-eternal life. And those on the outside are guaranteed to go to an awful place deep in the earth(where all our riches in the form of minerals come from) called Hell-eternal torment. In order for the followers to get the full potential of the snake oil rub, they invented mechanical rituals which do not require any thought process thus making them feel as comfy as birds of a feather. This creates an environment of an exclusive - bigoted- group with its exclusive rituals - Water baptism, Hajj, praying 5 times, circumcision, animal and human sacrifice (Sati) and many more. These enclosed belief systems created their own Do's and Don’ts. As someone said about Christianity, which can also be applied to all dogmatic religions, "It is time for all spiritual beings to stop preaching hell fire and brimstone and other stupid fears, and just teach, "love one another"...nothing else".

Then in the 15th century came Nanak- The Guru. The one that took the veil of fear-based ignorance away. He helped us come out of the darkness of dogmas and examine ourselves in the light of pragmatism - The Sat. He showed us that IK ONGKAAR couldn’t be put behind any walls and become exclusive to any one-belief system. In fact he took the notion of belief system out of the Sikh psyche and gave us the unique way of life called Sikhi Marg based on 3 basic rules of thumbs: Naam Japnah, Kirat karni and Vand kei chaknah.

Sikhi is NOT personality based like the Naamdhari cult would like us to believe but IDEA based.

When this Internet cyber sadh sangat started the following thought came to mind:-

"The first Sikh 'Blog' ever written was by Guru Nanak in the form of MOOL MANTAR. Blogs are intimate thoughts of a person who lives in the realm of NIRBHAU, NIRVAIR. Intimate thoughts make us expose our True (inner) nakedness, sans veils of taboos or dogmas. Guru Nanak did that without feeling ashamed of sharing his intimate thoughts. He showed us how to contemplate on the message whilst detaching ourselves from the messenger." 

Naamdharis. Radasoamis, Nirankari, Eckists and other Deras are all personality based rather than IDEA based as Sikhi is, hence they are just some more Snakeoil salesmen who sell their Snakeoil in the name of SIKHI. 

SHAME!! SHAME!!

Tejwant


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## Sikh Namdhari (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

DrKhalsaji, or may I call you Veer Jatinder Singhji?

*Jin Masthaki Dhuri Hari likhia, thina Satigur milia Ram Rajei*
*Agian Andhera cutia, Gur gian ghat balia*
*Hari ladha Rattan padartho, phir bahurri na chalia*
*Jan Nanak Naam aradhia, aradhi Hari milia*


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## Sikh Namdhari (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Sisterji Kaur-1

When Sri Satguru Nanak Devji first started to compose Gurbani He kept a small book with Him called 'Pothi'- which literally means -'book'. 

Upon passing Gurugaddhi to Bhai Lehnaji He also gave Him the Pothi which contained all of His 'Shabads'. This carried on until the time when Sri Satguru Arjun Devji collected all of that and other Banis and bound them into one. This compilation was then also called 'Pothi' or 'Pothi Sahib'. Granth - which literally means 'Big Volume' was a name which evolved over time. *All* of the volumes written pre-Singh Sabha times, i.e. pre 1872 AD. have 'Pothi Sahib' written on them. You can see for yourself if you visit the library in Amritsar. There are over 2,000 handwritten copies there.

After Bhai Mani Singhji, at the behest of Mathaji, collected all of Sri Satguru Gobind Singhji's writings, which were scattered all over the Punjab and elsewhere, he then compiled these into a Granth. 

Bhai Mani Singhji, Wah! Bhai Mani Singhji, who was later tortured by the Moguls, had his limbs cut at every joint until there was nothing left to cut. Do we even have a fraction of the Sikhi He had? He was a Mahapurash who knew His Satguru, who was qualified to recognise what His Satguru would write or what He would not write, because he had lived his life with the Satguru. (Today we have 'Sikh' scholars who gain a meager degree from a University and claim the Dasam Guru Granth Sahib is not Guruji's composition.)

Forgive me I am digressing.

Since the time of arrival on the scene of the compositions of Dasam Pithaji, both Granth Sahibs were 'Parkashed' side by side in all places of worship. There are some very beautiful contemporary paintings from the times of the Sikh Empire that show this. 

So to distinguish between the two Granth Sahibs they were given seperate names:
All of the Gurbani compiled in the first Granth was called: '*Aadh Guru Granth Sahib';*
which can be translated as: Volume of the First Gurujis.
All of Sri Guru Gobind Singhji's Gurbani, compiled in the second Granth was called: *Dasam Guru Granth Sahib. *The name should now be self explanatory.

There is a third Granth called *'Sarab Loh Granth',* which had eluded historians for a long time, but which all those who were in the know, knew of it's existance. But only certain Nihang Jathas had copies of it and they have guarded it jealously over the centuries. I do believe it can be made available to the Sangat, but you have to give them very good reasons for wanting it (apparently). I stand to be corrected.

Some time after 1873 and the formation of the 2nd Singh Sabha with the sponsorship of the British Empire, in opposition to the rise of the Namdhari Sikhs, the Singh Sabha leaders decided that only one Granth could be 'Guru'. So the Dasam Guru Granth Sahib was removed from all Dharamsalas and Gurdhwaras and the status of Aadh Guru Granth Sahib was raised to 'Sri Guru Granth Sahibji'.

Namdharis did not and do not agree with this arrangement, which is why we still call both Granth Sahibs by their original names.


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## drkhalsa (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Dear Naam Dhari Sikh ji

Thanks for the post 


> When Sri Satguru Nanak Devji first started to compose Gurbani He kept a small book with Him called 'Pothi'- which literally means -'book'.
> 
> Upon passing Gurugaddhi to Bhai Lehnaji He also gave Him the Pothi which contained all of His 'Shabads'. This carried on until the time when Sri Satguru Arjun Devji collected all of that and other Banis and bound them into one. This compilation was then also called 'Pothi' or 'Pothi Sahib'. Granth - which literally means 'Big Volume' was a name which evolved over time. *All* of the volumes written pre-Singh Sabha times, i.e. pre 1872 AD. have 'Pothi Sahib' written on them. You can see for yourself if you visit the library in Amritsar. There are over 2,000 handwritten copies there.



Agree with most of it Can you give address of Library that you are mentioning here with 2000 Handwritten copies .


I personally agrre with Nihangs about writer of Dasam Granth and consider it writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj




> There is a third Granth called *'Sarab Loh Granth',* which had eluded historians for a long time, but which all those who were in the know, knew of it's existance. But only certain Nihang Jathas had copies of it and they have guarded it jealously over the centuries. I do believe it can be made available to the Sangat, but you have to give them very good reasons for wanting it (apparently). I stand to be corrected.




Saraloh Granth is now openly vavilable at book shops and can be bought at amritsar and delhi




> Some time after 1873 and the formation of the 2nd Singh Sabha with the sponsorship of the British Empire, in opposition to the rise of the Namdhari Sikhs, the Singh Sabha leaders decided that only one Granth could be 'Guru'. So the Dasam Guru Granth Sahib was removed from all Dharamsalas and Gurdhwaras and the status of Aadh Guru Granth Sahib was raised to 'Sri Guru Granth Sahibji'.





this uor version of History and I dont think most peopel agree and will agree and it includes ME as well





Thanks again 



Jatinder Singh


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## badmash (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Same old debates.....if you claim to be a sikh, you are a sikh.
If you can speak and master punjabi, awesommeee!!!!!
If you keep kesh and pagdri, you are one of the few true sikhs.
The rest is all semantics. Lets wake up and smell the coffee, or rather the aroma of our own "sikhi" or "sikhism" vaporization/evaporation.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



> Same old debates.....if you claim to be a sikh, you are a sikh.
> If you can speak and master punjabi, awesommeee!!!!!
> If you keep kesh and pagdri, you are one of the few true sikhs.
> The rest is all semantics. Lets wake up and smell the coffee, or rather the aroma of our own "sikhi" or "sikhism" vaporization/evaporation.


 
What ignorance. A Sikh is a disciple of Guruji (*DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI*). You cannot be a disciple of Guruji if you follow a contradictory lineage of living masters. No matter how much anyone tries to make it so, it remains *FALSE* and *ANTI-GURMAT*. It has nothing to do with any individual idea of what is Sikhi, that's the point. 

This is no different than Christian missionaries dressed in kurta giving out Panjabi language comic books telling about satguru Jesus Christ and loyal Sikh Sadhu Sundar Singh. It's all *LIES*. Deliberate lies to manipulate and convert the misinformed. Naamdharies would have so much more respect if they could be honest that they are a breakaway sect away from mainstream Sikhs who have a different lineage of gurus than what is accepted as Sikh. Just be yourselves. Because you are not any part of the Panth.


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## badmash (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

More energy should be expended on the maintenance of Sikh culture and language than on highlighting the differences amongst us. We no longer have the luxury of the pursuit of purity.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



> More energy should be expended on the maintenance of Sikh culture and language than on highlighting the differences amongst us. We no longer have the luxury of the pursuit of purity.


 
Without purity, you have nothing left to preserve. That isn't Sikh culture anymore. No one will preserve what they do not respect and are not willing to live for and die for.

I don't know what you mean about luxury. The Sikh community in diaspora has a strong and hardcore Gurmat representation.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



> if You Recieve Naam From Someone Who Wears The 5 Shaster During An Amrit Sanchar But Has No Connection With His Creator Outside Of The Gurdwara; Who Will Take No Responsibility For Your Soul After Your Demise, How Can Your Recitation Of That Naam Bring You Salvation?


 
When you are preparing for amrit chakkna, and the Panj Piare are also preparing, they are no longer any individual person, but act in the authority given to them by Guru Gobind Singh Ji as the 5 Beloveds. *And as proof of this authority, Guru Gobind Singh Ji was himself kneeled down and initiated into the Khalsa by the Panj Piare.* The 5 Beloveds are no longer an individual, but the very living presence of Guruji. They speak and act as the Guru-Panth. That is why Naam can only be given to you by the Panj Piare. It is Guruji who has full responsibility for your soul and for the Khalsa Panth. After the Panj Piare have been convened they become ordinary Sikhs again.



> We all know that Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Guru. We also know that the community of Sikhs who has surrendered completely to the Guru is called the Khalsa. But who is Guru Khalsa Panth Sahib Ji?
> The Guru Khalsa Panth Sahib Ji was created by Waheguru and revealed to the world by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. When he bowed before the Khalsa on Vaisakhi day in 1699 at Anandpur Sahib and asked for amrit, he declared the Khalsa Panth as his Guru Sahib and he himself as the Guru's first disciple. "Wah Wah Gobind Singh aape gur chelaa". In his own words Guru Ji bestowed Guruship on the Guru Khalsa Panth by declaring "_Khalsa mero Satgur pooraa_".
> Guru Ji further said that "_atma granth wich, sareer panth wich_". He was again telling the world that spiritual Guruship is henceforth bestowed in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the physical Guruship is bestowed in the Guru Khalsa Panth Sahib Ji
> 
> sikh spirit may 1999


 
If someone takes amrit from a living guru, master, sant, baba, he is not receiving amrit of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. In fact, this act would make him break from faith with Guruji. Because he is receiving initiation with different gurus than the established ShabadGuru Ji. Naamdharis are their own lineage. They have nothing to do with Sikhs.


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## badmash (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

You people talk about things most average and common "sikhs" do not deal with nor care about. I for one do not care what Naamdharis do or do not do. I also am not personally that bothered about naam and the soul. I am more interested in preserving the  culture or merely even the knowledge and appreciation of that culture which gave birth to Sikhism. Call me non sikh or whatever you wish, my name, my face, the color of my skin and my perspective or what I call myself does not change by any accusation to the contrary.

You are indeed "supersikhs", and yes, yours is a luxury of belief. Sikhism is quickly being absorbed and corrupted thoroughly in its birthplace, although I am sure small pockets in the west and around the world are more 'sikh' than 95% of those in India. Yet one can believe whatever one wishes, as there is no correct factual "thing".


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## Curious Singh (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Regarding 'Agya Bhai Akal Ki' , please be informed that this verse has been written by Bhai Prehlad Singh which starts with these lines when converted to Punjabi that " This verse has been written on the orders of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, in this year Samvat 1752 , in Abchal Nagar i.e. Nanded of today which further states that all Sikhs should accept Sri Adi Granth Sahib as their Guru in times to come and in the end, it has been written that I, Prehlad Singh has written this verse" 

Now, will you kindly tell us one thing when the "Agya Bhai Akal Ki" Verse has been clearly told to be written when the year was Samvat 1752 i.e. 1695 A.D. , when the Sikhs of today were nowhere on horizon since the Sikhs were made Singhs only on 13 April, 1699 A.D. , then how come Guru Gobind Singh Ji can give future Guru Ship to Sri Adi Granth Sahib Ji. 

For counter-confirmation of the same , you may read the granth " Mahaan Kosh " written by a famous Sikh Historian " Bhai Kahan Singh Ji Nabha " .

Regards,

Curious Singh ( London )


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



> I also am not personally that bothered about naam and the soul.


 


> nwm qqu kil mih punhcrnw ] (254-8, gauVI, mÚ 5)
> naam tat kal meh punharchanaa.
> -------------------------------
> In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, only the Naam, the Name of the Lord, shall be of any real use to you.


 


> Yet one can believe whatever one wishes, as there is no correct factual "thing".


 
So you believe in nothing? Hindutva fanatics are praying for Kalki the destroyer. Muslim fanatics are praying for the coming of the Mahdi. And I have a feeling in the middle, the whole world is going to have a great upheaval of suffering. But you're right. It's really just opinion. To some it matters, and to some it does not. I wouldn't worry too much about preserving a culture. This is an era of mass extinctions.


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## sachchasoda (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Khalsa Ji why are you promoting Hindi. i have impression this is what hindustanee sarkaar want from us.  so are you with them or against. 

HIDUTVA- also promote HINDI-ALL HINDI ,NO GURMUKHI

isthis same site that Makkar Ji use, look like that

to preserve our purity i believe we must preserve  and use our own Bhasha-GURMUKHI


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



> Khalsa Ji why are you promoting Hindi.


 
:hmm:


----------



## sachchasoda (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> :hmm:


 
so khalsa Ji what you do and what you say-

is totally opposite

are you really khalsa or not


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

I was cutting and pasting from a site that uses Hindi. I am changing it now.


----------



## sachchasoda (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

you made my day

thankyou

at least one good deed for the day


----------



## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

lol, no, thank you.


----------



## badmash (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



Harjas Kaur Khalsa said:


> So you believe in nothing? Hindutva fanatics are praying for Kalki the destroyer. Muslim fanatics are praying for the coming of the Mahdi. And I have a feeling in the middle, the whole world is going to have a great upheaval of suffering. But you're right. It's really just opinion. To some it matters, and to some it does not. I wouldn't worry too much about preserving a culture. This is an era of mass extinctions.



If I may ask, why do you bother then? I counter with the simple thought that the culture and language are more important than the religion, although people can think what they like or not at all for that matter. The history, culture and language are the roots of the tree of sikhism. You take that punjabi essence out and sikhism is distilled hinduism. That is the way I look at it, very simple. Burn away the issues of appearance and rituals, sikhs and hindus arrive at a very similar point in terms of their spirituality. The issue we discuss is not a matter of belief, it is a matter of trying to understand what is the base. The reason there is so much problems today with Sikhism, in all its aspects, is the loss and erosion of the base. I define that base as constituting not only religion, but history, language and pride. I also am critical of those who overly stress the religious, because while that has been historically important, it has been but a significant fraction of the overall picture of Sikh history and ethos. Without the pride of who one is (which is very evident today in the majority), then how can you sustain, on a larger scale, the cohesion and even desire among the people to carry it forward? But then again, if we are that weak as a community, then perhaps it is only inevitable and logical that we will fail.


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



> The history, culture and language are the roots of the tree of sikhism.


 
Lol. Veer ji, do you really believe this? The roots of the tree of Sikhism are out of this world.  



> You take that punjabi essence out and sikhism is distilled hinduism.


 
Sikhism is about serving the eternal, timeless Lord. It has nothing to do with Punjabiat. What were you before you were born a Punjabi? When you take off the Punjabi clothes of this body, what will you be then? Punjabiat gained honor and dignity from Sikhi. Punjabiat didn't make Sikhi. Sikhi is not Hinduism. It's a whole new religion which radically transforms Islam and Hinduism and Christianity and every other religion. If the spiritual truths were the same, why would Gurbani correct their errors?




> ihMdU mUly BUly AKutI jWhI ] (556-9, ibhwgVw, mÚ 1)
> hindoo moolay bhoolay akhutee jaaNhee.
> 
> nwrid kihAw is pUj krWhI ] AMDy guMgy AMD AMDwru ] (556-9, ibhwgVw, mÚ 1)
> ...


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## Tejwant Singh (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Harjas Bhenji,

I love your thought process.. Enjoy your journey.

Tejwant


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## Curious Singh (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Sat Sri Akal ,
                 If Guru Ram Das Ji had meant Guru's Bani to be the Guru by saying this " Bani Guru, Guru hai Bani ", then my dear fellows, we would not have Sri Adi Granth Sahib Ji today with us BECAUSE whenever anything is spoken by a Satguru , it is deemed to take effect from that moment onwards. In this way, there would have been no fifth Guru or onwards and we would have got no Granth Sahib with us and we would not have been Singhs

It's actual meaning is that the Bani spoken by Guru is the supreme of every Bani i.e. every other Bani is Kachhi in comparison to Guru Ji's Bani.

Regards,

Curious Singh.


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Such kya veere
such kya


Curious Singh said:


> Sat Sri Akal ,
> If Guru Ram Das Ji had meant Guru's Bani to be the Guru by saying this " Bani Guru, Guru hai Bani ", then my dear fellows, we would not have Sri Adi Granth Sahib Ji today with us BECAUSE whenever anything is spoken by a Satguru , it is deemed to take effect from that moment onwards. In this way, there would have been no fifth Guru or onwards and we would have got no Granth Sahib with us and we would not have been Singhs
> 
> It's actual meaning is that the Bani spoken by Guru is the supreme of every Bani i.e. every other Bani is Kachhi in comparison to Guru Ji's Bani.
> ...


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## sahilmakkar1983 (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Gurufateh paaji

What u want to say
i didnt understand

please elaborate

Gurufateh


Curious Singh said:


> Regarding 'Agya Bhai Akal Ki' , please be informed that this verse has been written by Bhai Prehlad Singh which starts with these lines when converted to Punjabi that " This verse has been written on the orders of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, in this year Samvat 1752 , in Abchal Nagar i.e. Nanded of today which further states that all Sikhs should accept Sri Adi Granth Sahib as their Guru in times to come and in the end, it has been written that I, Prehlad Singh has written this verse"
> 
> Now, will you kindly tell us one thing when the "Agya Bhai Akal Ki" Verse has been clearly told to be written when the year was Samvat 1752 i.e. 1695 A.D. , when the Sikhs of today were nowhere on horizon since the Sikhs were made Singhs only on 13 April, 1699 A.D. , then how come Guru Gobind Singh Ji can give future Guru Ship to Sri Adi Granth Sahib Ji.
> 
> ...


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## kds1980 (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



Curious Singh said:


> Sat Sri Akal ,
> If Guru Ram Das Ji had meant Guru's Bani to be the Guru by saying this " Bani Guru, Guru hai Bani ", then my dear fellows, we would not have Sri Adi Granth Sahib Ji today with us BECAUSE whenever anything is spoken by a Satguru , it is deemed to take effect from that moment onwards. In this way, there would have been no fifth Guru or onwards and we would have got no Granth Sahib with us and we would not have been Singhs
> 
> It's actual meaning is that the Bani spoken by Guru is the supreme of every Bani i.e. every other Bani is Kachhi in comparison to Guru Ji's Bani.
> ...



curious singh ji could you please tell us if gurgaddi was not given to guru granth sahib then to whom it is given because no sensible person will accept
the story of namdhar's that guru gobind singh ji vanished and then reappeared in the form of baba ajaypal singh.


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## Sikh Namdhari (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Curious Singhji, you have got Prahladh Singh's Dohira slightly wrong in translation. 

I quote *exactly,* unedited and untranslated from the entry under 'Prahladh Singh' in Bhai Kahn Singhji Nabha's Mahan Kosh:

_*PRAHLADH SINGH. Rahitnamae dha kartha ik Singh.*_
_*Is dhe Rahitnamae dha arambh is Dohirae tho hundha hei-*_

_*"Abchalnagar bethei Guru man mehi keea bichar, *_
_*bolia poora Satguru moorath Sri Karthar"*_

_*Ar Rahitnama banan dha saal dasia hei-*_

_*"Samath Sathrahi sae bhei barakh bavanja nihaar,*_
_*Maagh Vadhi thith panchmi veervaar subh vaar"*_

*Is nae eh khial nahi keetha ki Samath 1752 vich Guru Sahib abichalnagar nahi padharae ar na uss velae Khalsae dhee rachana see.*
_*Isae Rahitnamae dhae ih vak han:-*_

_*"Akaalpurakh kae Hukam thae pargat chalaoe Panth,*_
_*Sabh Sikhen ko hukam hei Guru manyo Granth.*_
_*Guru Khalsa manio pargat Guru kee dheh".*_


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## Sikh Namdhari (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Be it known that 
"Agia Bhei Akaal ki thabhi chalaio Panth,
Sabh Sikhen ko hukam hei Guru manio Granth...." 
is the slightly changed version of the same dohira that Prahladh Singh wrote. Over the years it has evolved to the version sang in most non-Namdhari Gurdhwaras. 

However, I have heard that it is no longer sang at Harimandhir Sahib. 

We do not find this philosophy anywhere in Guruji's own writings. Surely if He was going to intill Guruship to the Holy scriptures He would have mentioned such a dramatic revolution somewhere!
As for instilling the Gurugadhi in the 5 Pyarae; this bit really confuses me!
Was it the 5 Pyarae, or the whole 'Guru' Khalsa Panth?
I
 always thought that according to Gurbani in Aadh Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Guru Granth Sahib the Guru is *'Poora'.* 
He alone is *Samrath - capable on His own.*

But according to this new philosophy, the Guru is no longer Human, sorry cancel that, because the 5 Pyarae ARE HUMAN, so is the rest of the 'Guru Khalsa Panth'.
Somebody got real confused when concotting this philosophy. Sounds rather British, doesn't it.
Hold on, it's non of the above - the 'Shabad' is Guru.

Everything, but the real Guru. 

The definition which can only be given to a living Human Being as written in the Vedas for THOUSANDS of years; which *Sri Satguru Nanak Devji* propogated has suddenly become one big *LIE?*


Why can't Sikhs see that what is written in the Gurbani and how the ORIGINAL Gurgaddhi was STARTED is the TRUTH! 

Everything else is just a fabrication by ordinary men.


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## simpy (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



Sikh Namdhari said:


> Be it known that
> "Agia Bhei Akaal ki thabhi chalaio Panth,
> Sabh Sikhen ko hukam hei Guru manio Granth...."
> is the slightly changed version of the same dohira that Prahladh Singh wrote. Over the years it has evolved to the version sang in most non-Namdhari Gurdhwaras.
> ...


 
*Respected Sikh NaamDhar Ji,*

*i respect your choice- you can belive in waht you want to.*

*Now as you don't respect our choice- can you please answer-*

*QUESTIONS FOR ALL THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN TRYING TO CONVINCE THE SIKHS TO BELIEVE THAT THEIR BELIEF IN 'DHAN “DHAN SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI” BEING THEIR LIVING GURU' IS SUBJECT TO BE CORRECTED.*

*A True Guru is a Guru because His Soul is Merged with The Higher Self. *
*For us(SIKHS) ALL OUR GURUS ARE TRUE GURUS.  *
*For us(SIKHS) All our Eleven Gurus are LIVING.  *
*For us(SIKHS) TRUTH never dies. It is not bound to time and space. ALL GURU SAHIBAAN AND ETERNAL LIVING JOTE IN THE FORM OF DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI*
*are everywhere, all the time, Adole, Apaar…… *
*Baani Prabh Ki Sabh ko Bolay, Aap Adole Na Kabhu Doley………*

*IF ME NEECH IS WRONG PLEASE CORRECT ME.:roll: *


*Now we all know this Truth that human body is limited to time and space so has to expire one day. So is Guru Ji’s. There is no Guru living in a physical body forever. CAN YOUR GURU'S PHYSICAL BODY  LIVE FOREVER??????*

*And I hope we all agree on this point that Atma never dies. DO WE??????*

*So for us(SIKHS), all our Gurus are here; now; have not gone anywhere. ARE THEY GONE ANYWHERE????*

*For all those who have been beating the drum Living Guru, Living Guru; In a Human Body, In a Human Body; The Only Way, The Only Way-*
*Will your Guru be of NO USE TO YOU AFTER HE/SHE LEAVES HIS/HER HUMAN ABODE??????*

*Are his/her words(truth) those are coming out of his/her mouth now, will be useless after he/she leaves the physical body???????*


*forgive me please*


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## Sikh Namdhari (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Surinder Kaurji, Bhenji  

I have responded to you in your thread regarding your comment on respect.

My Guru is also your Guru and your Guru is definately my Guru, so can we stop creating divisions? Our only disagreement is where that Guru resides. It should be in our 'Mann'. But I think all of us are guilty of pushing Him out of there. If we kept Him there we wouldn't be here, debating in this fashion!

As for beating the drum! One has to when one discovers something that others can't see. So can you forgive Neech dass for singing the praises of his Guru? Trust me it's not an attack! How do you equate that with 'attack?'  
You keep saying there can be no living Guru. Then why do we keep repeating the names of the 10? Why don't we just talk about 'Shabad'? Surely then, the 10 should have no significance whatsoever! 

To say that the message has been delivered and there is no more need for a proactive Guru seems to be an ironical statement to make, considering the path Sikhi seems to be taking outside the realms of a Human Master in any shape or form.

I can confidently say that those within the sphere of Satguru Jagjit Singhji no Sikh who professes to be His cannot even move without His command. 
Those who stray, I have seen Him bring them back with love and Grace.
His Maryadha is exactly what His Jyot as Satguru Gobind Singhji gave. All He is doing is tending His flock. 

Shudh Gurbani recitation, correct understanding of Gurbani in it's Sanatan Form, Naam Simeran, Amrit Maryadha (via 5 Pyarae), Gurbani Kirtan in Raag Maryadha as preserved from the times of Satguru Nanak Devji. 
Huge, complex compositions by Satguru Arjun Devji that were disappearing from Sikhi have been preserved in pristine form by the Satguru's House. 

History, Historical artifacts of the Sikhs that forces opposed to us tried to destroy during the Empire are still preserved amongst Namdhari Sikhs. 

You have so much to learn. Drop your prejudices, people. Namdahri Sikhs are defenders of Sikhi. Our ancestors died and langushed in their *thousands in British prisons* fighting for YOUR liberties. *There are forces who have supressed this history. They are the true enemies of Sikhi. Not the Namdhari Sikhs.*


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## simpy (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



Sikh Namdhari said:


> Surinder Kaurji, Bhenji
> 
> I have responded to you in your thread regarding your comment on respect.
> 
> ...


 

*Respected Sikh Naam DhariJi,*

*this is exactly waht i said to you under 'Questions for....'- *

*you are condemning their faith who are questioning you about yours. This way you cannot convince others that you are better.*

*By condemning the concept of Shabad Guru you cannot win the hearts of it's believers.*

*thankyou*
*and forgive me please*


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## ekmusafir_ajnabi (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Sikh Namdhari,



> His Maryadha is exactly what His Jyot as Satguru Gobind Singhji gave.


 
There is no "Jyot" association of Shri Jagjit Singh Namdhari with Guru Gobind Singh ji or the lineage of Guru Nanak Dev ji other than the use of Bani from Guru Granth Sahib ji. Please do not attempt to rewrite history in order to justify the diversion. Shri Jagjit Singh has his own Maryadha. If you feel comfortable in his guidance then good luck to you. One day when you (with due respect to Shri Jagjit Singh ji) rise above the gutter level you may come to see the reality.



> can confidently say that those within the sphere of Satguru Jagjit Singhji no Sikh who professes to be His cannot even move without His command.


 
Please do not try to educate us. We are fully aware of what happens in the sphere of Shri Jagjit Singh. Lets us just leave that under the covers.

Let me tell you a storey:

Once a King was out strolling in his Charriot. The wheel broke and he sought help from a farmer who did not know whom he was helping. The King introduced himself and told him to came and see him if he ever wanted something. The king ordered his sevants to allow this man directly to him whenever he came to see him.

A day came when the farmer became desperate due to his Ox have died suddenly. He remembered the Kings offer and went to his palace. The servants recognised him and lead him straight to the King who was praying at the time. As the King finished his prayer he joyousily asked the farmer how he could help. 

The farmer asked the King to explain to him first what he was doing. The Kings explained to the farmer that he was asking God to give him bounty so that he could help others. 

Upon hearing this the farmer back tracked towards the door. The King ran after him and asked him for his behaviour. The farmer said If you can pray for bounty from him and get it then you are of no use to me as I myself can do the same. I do not need a Middleman. 

So Sikh Namdhari, The ocean of Knowledge lies in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Why rely on a third party when you can take a dip into it by yourself and for yourself. 

Let's see if you understand the message if you do not have it in you then You have Shri Jagjit Singh Namdhari at your service. The typical Indian way - Let someone else do the Hard work and you enjoy the fruits of his Labour.

By the way "SahilMakker" has special openings if you are in a hurry to see God. He may be the solution to all Namdhari Problems. You will all be saved from abuse or derogatory comments.

Happy to be of Service.


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## Sikh Namdhari (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



> Please do not try to educate us. We are fully aware of what happens in the sphere of Shri Jagjit Singh. Lets us just leave that under the covers.


 
111111


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## simpy (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

  *my brothers and sisters,*

*please do not fight on these kind of issues...*

*cease fire*


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## derasachasauda (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Waheguru Ji Ki Khalsa Waheguru Ji Kee Fateh

I Am Here To Seek Your Help To Relieve Crores Of People Slaved By Mind Control Techniques By Dera Sacha Sauda, Sirsa. I Used To Be One Of Them. But Eventually Due To My Location And Other Factors I Am Able To Relieve Myself. Crores Of Dera Followers Act As Dera Want Them To. They Are All Innocent And Are Attached With A Hope. Please Be Kind And Help Me Educate These Crores Of People About Dera Sacha Sauda's Activities And Help Them Relieve And Cure Themselves From This Cult. Right Now They Are Not Even Ready To Accept The Fact That Dera Is Infact Had Become A Cult. I Tried To Send Emails To Editors About Dera Activities And Tried To Post "truth" On The Internet But Of No Avail. Dera Is Very Strong Even Sikh Leaders Like Badal Beg Them For Votes. Please Listen To Your Conscience And Be Like Guru Teg Bahadur Ji. Who Sacrificed Himself For Sikhism And Bahamans. Today, People Like Born In Sikh Religion But Are Stuck In The Net Of Deras. Please Please Help Me Spread This Message To Everyone And Educate Dera Followers To Learn The Truth About Dera. These People Need Help. Thanks For Your Time.


----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------


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## gurc (Apr 3, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Sat Sri Akal

I have alway been very neutral about Namdhari Sikhs.
Having read all comments by Namdhari ji, makes me glad I am born in 'main-stream Sikh' family. I am afraid, it also make more suspicious and reluctant to attend any programs organised by Namdhari.


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## Sikh Namdhari (Apr 3, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Thank you Sister Surinder Kaurji for deleting my last response. I will not be contributing any more articles on this Forum. 
God help us all.
Sat-Sri-Akaal.


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## simpy (Apr 3, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

*Respected Veer sikhnaamdhari Ji,*

*that was not something appropriate to tell a fellow member.*

*we all are here to learn and share our views.*

*telling somebody to leave because you donot like their views, is not appropriate.*

*it is your choice, you want to post or not.*

*forgive me please if it hurts.*

*please be gentle to others. this idea of 'Being Naamdhari is Skhi' is in itself contradicting to mainstream Sikh Faith and thought process.*

*this is the reason a new thread was presented for Naamdhari discussion, you have not posted there even once.*

*this thread, the very first post condemns the idea of Shabad Guru. How is it possible after reading that, people will not present their own versions and understanding of Naamdhari faith- that you always say -they are wrong.*

*forgive me please*


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## Curious Singh (Apr 3, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

Sat Sri Akal,
                I totally agree with Bibi Surinder Kaur ji that by condemning other's faiths , we cannot win over their hearts. This is exactly what is taught by Sri Satguru Jagjit Singh ji. We do not intend to hurt anybody's feelings but we also cannot take the ugly comments made by somebody lying down.

In fact, today we should all get together and work for the removal of many bad habits which have infiltrated almost 80% of Sikh homes in India i.e. cutting of hair by Sikh youth and drug addiction.

If the energy that we are spending here is diverted to the above-mentioned cause, then I think that will be more useful since nobody has achieved anything from this infighting between ourselves. For refreshing your memories, I must tell here that umpteen number of books running into thousands of pages have been written from both sides but to no avail.

If one side questions other, then other side comes up with a rebuttal but with no fruitful end. The books that I have mentioned have been written by very famous historians from both sides but they failed to convince each other.

What I think is that we should instead ask each other, how much gurbani you read everyday or how much naam-simran you do everyday as per your maryada.

We should strive for community development by working collectively rather than working individually. Imagin , we constitute only 2% or 1% of the human population on earth and how many groups are we divided into.

If I may have hurt anybody, then I apologize for the same.

Regards,

Curious Singh.


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## simpy (Apr 3, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*



Curious Singh said:


> Sat Sri Akal,
> I totally agree with Bibi Surinder Kaur ji that by condemning other's faiths , we cannot win over their hearts. This is exactly what is taught by Sri Satguru Jagjit Singh ji. We do not intend to hurt anybody's feelings but we also cannot take the ugly comments made by somebody lying down.
> 
> In fact, today we should all get together and work for the removal of many bad habits which have infiltrated almost 80% of Sikh homes in India i.e. cutting of hair by Sikh youth and drug addiction.
> ...


 
*Respected Curious Singh Ji,*

*we all are here to learn  and share the knowledge. *

*please correct me if i am wrong, not many people even know what NaamDhari is. Many get confused and surprised after knowing that they don't consider Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji their Guru. Some even start considering it a threat, based on their level of discriminative intellect.*

*our effort is to clear doubts and misunderstanding without hurting anybody's feelings. *

*There are many out there who say they are Sikhs but have totally different views when come to the beliefs, traditions and daily practices and all that. *

*In Gurbani our Guru Sahibaan added all these Banis of all these different Bhagats to give us such an important lesson, we still fight over the same old issue-I AM THE BEST-the SUPER EGO-SINKING DOWN WITH THE PRESSURE OF WORST FORMS OF TAMO GUNA.*

*God help us.*


*forgive me please*


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## ISDhillon (Apr 3, 2007)

*Re: Being Naam-dhari is Sikhi*

What is it about the flesh of the guru which is so beloved to the devotees?

Does your guru have a roop which can seduce my soul?

Do words become redundant when they are not spoken from someones mouth?


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Apr 3, 2007)

> *My Guru is also your Guru and your Guru is definately my Guru, so can we stop creating divisions?
> *


 
Why do you keep provoking people with insulting comments like this? I utterly reject Jagjit Singh Namdhari. Is that clear enough? Your lineage of dedhari gurus has nothing to do with Sikhs. Nothing. Stop forcing this issue. No one respects aggressive missionaries.


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## Sikh Namdhari (Apr 4, 2007)

Quote:


> *My Guru is also your Guru and your Guru is definately my Guru, so can we stop creating divisions?
> *
> Why do you keep provoking people with insulting comments like this? I utterly reject Jagjit Singh Namdhari. Is that clear enough? Your lineage of dedhari gurus has nothing to do with Sikhs. Nothing. Stop forcing this issue. No one respects aggressive missionaries.


Yesterday 04:43 PM



Harjas Kaur Bhenji

I will make this statement clear to you and you will agree with me that your Guru IS my Guru and my Guru IS your Guru. We are brother and sister in faith. 
I want you to be my sister. I am not making an aggressive statement, but a true one; in the same spirit that Guru Nanak Devji made.

I am NOT a missionary. I have no desire to make you break away from the faith that you hold. *However I do want to try and rid you of your hatred.*

But not now. I have to go to the dentist!  
Relax Bhenji. I have no motive other than to share the wonders of Sikhi with you.


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## simpy (Apr 4, 2007)

imTw boilAw kro, dMd G`t duKxgy  

*just kidding*


*forgive me please*


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## badmash (Apr 4, 2007)

Sikhism is what one makes of it. What it is not is dogmatic. We also have no fatwas. We do evidently have lots of dreamers. But dreaming is good, because so few of Sikhs do it anymore. If Bani is your Bhang, no problems. But one should not confuse one's interpretation of it as fact, nor should one mistakenly judge others' sikhi erroneous out of hand. I believe all of our interpretations of Sikhi is fine, it is what makes it unique, it is why it will eventually die out also.


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