# Soul Transfer To Another Body



## ActsOfGod

Apparently it is an accepted theorem in Sikh thought and belief that a soul can transfer from one physical body to another.  This is the explanation given of how the 1st human Guru could be in the bodies of all subsequent 9 human Guru's.

This episode of the fiction series Star Trek reminded me of the same concept:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Schizoid_Man_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)#Plot

If soul transfer is a real phenomenon, are there any other instances of it in history?  And is it something that could be achievable by any of us, or would you have to be enlightened to be able to access that level of awareness/power?

Another question I often pondered has to do with the mechanics of the process.  Presumably, every living human has a soul.  So therefore, if another soul merges into your body, how do the two souls co-exist?  Does one get subdued or relegated into the background (much like it was depicted in the Star Trek episode)?  Or do they both co-exist in the same body?  Or do they actually blend and merge, and become one soul?  (if it's the last case, then WOW, talk about Union! -- two souls becoming one)

Would love to hear your thoughts on this.

AoG


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## Ishna

It maybe not have been the 'soul' that was 'transferred' between the Guru Sahiban; it was the Jyot which was passed on.  They held the same Light up for all.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Ten candles lit from the same ORIGINAL Candle...today the SGGS shines with the same JYOT..but its a BOOK made of paper..ink and has no life blood bones etc..

JYOT se JYOT ralee...no souls changing bodies...no way.


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## Luckysingh

ActsOfGod said:


> Apparently it is an accepted theorem in Sikh thought and belief that a soul can transfer from one physical body to another. This is the explanation given of how the 1st human Guru could be in the bodies of all subsequent 9 human Guru's.


 
Never come across this soul explanation, but I can imagine how and from where it comes about !

Soul travel is the transfer and exit of soul from one physical body to another. This is also called astral travel.

What you are actually talking about or the jyot of the gurus in this sense, is the _expansion of consciousness_ and in this particular case, the Jyot being the _supreme higher consciousness_.

I find Gyanji's explanation more in line with this in terms of this supreme higher consciousness being awakened in the already occupied bodies with individual soul.


> Ten candles lit from the same ORIGINAL Candle...today the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji shines with the same JYOT..but its a BOOK made of paper..ink and has no life blood bones etc..
> 
> JYOT se JYOT ralee...no souls changing bodies...no way.


 
_Different_ bodies= _different _souls,...
...= but they had the _same awakened higher consciousness._

astral travel and soul travel is a lowly procedure that is never encouraged in gurmat.
However, raising your consciousness and awareness up to the higher level of sachkhand whilst alive is what makes the gurmukh _''jivan mukht''_

If you look for material and references about this difference between soul travel and consciousness expansion, then you will come across conflicting and overlapping articles. It's just that very few understand it clearly to document and most of them class it as the same thing out of ignorance.

Many authors will claim that 'consciousness expansion' is a form of astral travel and class it as a category, but it's clearly not as your soul does not leave the body and you can't look back and see your body as you would in soul/astral travel.

There is famous story about Guru Nanak ji and the son of a haji that debates and argues with guruji about the existence of other planets and life forms on them. Guru ji then proceeds to show this man that many planets exit in the universe with their own relevant life forms.
It is very often mistranslated that Guruji took the man for a'' soul travel ride'' to show him these worlds of existence, and which you can understand is totally contradicting with Nanak philosophy.
He wouldn't have performed an extraordinary act whereby their souls depart and leave their bodies for an exploration journey.
He simply helped raise and expand the man's consciousness so that he could see and witness these other planets and life forms whilst he was still stood still with his soul and body at wherever they were stood.


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## Ambarsaria

Luckysingh ji thanks for a wonderful post.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## chazSingh

Luckysingh said:


> Never come across this soul explanation, but I can imagine how and from where it comes about !
> 
> Soul travel is the transfer and exit of soul from one physical body to another. This is also called astral travel.
> 
> What you are actually talking about or the jyot of the gurus in this sense, is the _expansion of consciousness_ and in this particular case, the Jyot being the _supreme higher consciousness_.
> 
> I find Gyanji's explanation more in line with this in terms of this supreme higher consciousness being awakened in the already occupied bodies with individual soul.
> 
> 
> _Different_ bodies= _different _souls,...
> ...= but they had the _same awakened higher consciousness._
> 
> astral travel and soul travel is a lowly procedure that is never encouraged in gurmat.
> However, raising your consciousness and awareness up to the higher level of sachkhand whilst alive is what makes the gurmukh _''jivan mukht''_
> 
> If you look for material and references about this difference between soul travel and consciousness expansion, then you will come across conflicting and overlapping articles. It's just that very few understand it clearly to document and most of them class it as the same thing out of ignorance.
> 
> Many authors will claim that 'consciousness expansion' is a form of astral travel and class it as a category, but it's clearly not as your soul does not leave the body and you can't look back and see your body as you would in soul/astral travel.
> 
> There is famous story about Guru Nanak ji and the son of a haji that debates and argues with guruji about the existence of other planets and life forms on them. Guru ji then proceeds to show this man that many planets exit in the universe with their own relevant life forms.
> It is very often mistranslated that Guruji took the man for a'' soul travel ride'' to show him these worlds of existence, and which you can understand is totally contradicting with Nanak philosophy.
> He wouldn't have performed an extraordinary act whereby their souls depart and leave their bodies for an exploration journey.
> He simply helped raise and expand the man's consciousness so that he could see and witness these other planets and life forms whilst he was still stood still with his soul and body at wherever they were stood.



i see in Gurbani it makes reference to 'inner vision being awakened'...would you equate this awareness/consiousness expansion to such inner vision?

through the very short amount of time i have been doing regular simran, i really think the soul doesn't need to go anywhere, our vision is just 'opened' and awareness expanded...


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## ActsOfGod

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Ten candles lit from the same ORIGINAL Candle...today the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji shines with the same JYOT..but its a BOOK made of paper..ink and has no life blood bones etc..
> 
> JYOT se JYOT ralee...no souls changing bodies...no way.



Thanks for the clarification.  This has led to more questions:

How is Jyot defined?  If it's not the same as the soul, then what does it mean when all 10 Guru's signed their names as "Nanak"?

Does having the same Jyot mean that you share the same memories/experiences/awareness as the original Jyot?  What specifically does it mean?

Thanks for elaborating.

AoG


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## Sherdil

ActsOfGod said:


> Thanks for the clarification.  This has led to more questions:
> 
> How is Jyot defined?  If it's not the same as the soul, then what does it mean when all 10 Guru's signed their names as "Nanak"?
> 
> Does having the same Jyot mean that you share the same memories/experiences/awareness as the original Jyot?  What specifically does it mean?
> 
> Thanks for elaborating.
> 
> AoG



No bro. Having the same Jyot means having the same divine inspiration. They didn't have the same soul or the same memories. All of the Gurus preached the same message. They wrote their name as Nanak out of solidarity. They all had the same beliefs.


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## ActsOfGod

Sherdil said:


> No bro. Having the same Jyot means having the same divine inspiration. They didn't have the same soul or the same memories. All of the Gurus preached the same message. They wrote their name as Nanak out of solidarity. They all had the same beliefs.



To go a little further down the road with this:

I've heard people say that there were 10 Gurus, but in fact there really only was 1 Guru (Guru Nanak Sahib).  I always understood this statement in the context of the same soul in different bodies concept.  Looking at it from the perspective of the same Jyot, how does it translate?

Thanks!

AoG


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## Sherdil

ActsOfGod said:


> To go a little further down the road with this:
> 
> I've heard people say that there were 10 Gurus, but in fact there really only was 1 Guru (Guru Nanak Sahib).  I always understood this statement in the context of the same soul in different bodies concept.  Looking at it from the perspective of the same Jyot, how does it translate?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> AoG



There was one Nanak in the sense that their thought process was perfectly aligned. So Nanak didn't die, he lived on through the successive nine gurus. All of their teachings live on in the Guru Granth Sahib today.

The soul didn't jump bodies because the succeeding gurus were alive before the preceding ones died. Moreover, the Gurus were Jivan Mukht, so their souls were merged with The One. It doesn't make sense for them to occupy a new body. 

Personally, I don't believe in a soul. Rather, there is a consciousness that animates an otherwise inanimate body. But that is whole other discussion. 

Peace.


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## Abneet

To me, Jyot= Divine light that was inside the 10 gurus and is currently in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 

Nowadays I hear Sikhs saying I like Guru Nanak more than Guru Gobind Singh ji because he was more peaceful.....:angryyoungsingh: they just don't understand how the same jyot was in all of the Gurus. The other annoying part is people saying Guru Nanak was God himself. He was Oneness with God but not God himself.


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## Luckysingh

chazSingh said:


> i see in Gurbani it makes reference to 'inner vision being awakened'...would you equate this awareness/consiousness expansion to such inner vision?
> 
> through the very short amount of time i have been doing regular simran, i really think the soul doesn't need to go anywhere, our vision is just 'opened' and awareness expanded...


 
Yep, I would say so..
The soul doesn't go anywhere but that is not to say it can't.
I know some people are able to soul travel or astral travel, as they say.... but this is NOT raising your awareness or consciousness towards God and therefore seems lowly to me.
The inner vision you mention is the same way of describing the consciousness expansion I mentioned.

Because all this talk is about Sukam sareer which is subtle and can't be seen on x-ray/MRI..etc..., then it will always prove difficult to explain fully.

Surprisingly, we have members on here that comprehend the existence of a sukam(subtle) mind in our body yet at the same time deny there can be a soul or atma within us !!


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## Luckysingh

Sherdil said:


> Personally, I don't believe in a soul. Rather, there is a consciousness that animates an otherwise inanimate body. But that is whole other discussion.


 
If you don't believe in soul but believe in a consciousness, then what exactly do you understand the difference to be ?
Maybe you are just complicating it for yourself by over thinking and convincing ?


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## Luckysingh

ActsOfGod said:


> Thanks for the clarification. This has led to more questions:
> 
> How is Jyot defined? If it's not the same as the soul, then what does it mean when all 10 Guru's signed their names as "Nanak"?
> 
> Does having the same Jyot mean that you share the same memories/experiences/awareness as the original Jyot? What specifically does it mean?
> 
> Thanks for elaborating.
> 
> AoG


 


ActsOfGod said:


> To go a little further down the road with this:
> 
> I've heard people say that there were 10 Gurus, but in fact there really only was 1 Guru (Guru Nanak Sahib). I always understood this statement in the context of the same soul in different bodies concept. Looking at it from the perspective of the same Jyot, how does it translate?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> AoG


 
I think that my post tried to explain this is simplistic terms.
If not, which part of post no.4 did you not comprehend and would like me to elaborate ?

I know it gets a little complicated because we are talking about subtle properties of the body, nevertheless, understanding a little can help us in many different areas of gurbani in my opinion.


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## chazSingh

Sherdil said:


> No bro. Having the same Jyot means having the same divine inspiration. They didn't have the same soul or the same memories. All of the Gurus preached the same message. They wrote their name as Nanak out of solidarity. They all had the same beliefs.



i think it goes beyond the same beliefs...when you know the truth then one no longer needs beliefs...they 'know'

As lucky ji stated, an awareness/consciousness expansion connected right to the source of everything...thus the message came direct from the source and not from the gurus...as the truth came to them, they spoke it and wrote it, the same source for all the guru's, the same source our own soul yearns to connect with and remember..


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## chazSingh

Luckysingh said:


> Yep, I would say so..
> The soul doesn't go anywhere but that is not to say it can't.
> I know some people are able to soul travel or astral travel, as they say.... but this is NOT raising your awareness or consciousness towards God and therefore seems lowly to me.
> The inner vision you mention is the same way of describing the consciousness expansion I mentioned.
> 
> Because all this talk is about Sukam sareer which is subtle and can't be seen on x-ray/MRI..etc..., then it will always prove difficult to explain fully.
> 
> Surprisingly, we have members on here that comprehend the existence of a sukam(subtle) mind in our body yet at the same time deny there can be a soul or atma within us !!



I agree...the internet is littered with people trying to astral travel...i believe if a persons mind is still under the 5 thieves to a great extent, they attract lover experiences...

through Simran, i believe our vibration increases...we become purer...our inner light radiates brightly...allowing us through Waheguru's grace to bypass these lower experiences or regions (whatever you want to call it)...and we see, hear only what we need to on our path to sachkhand (consiousness expansion - god consciousness)

God Bless Ji


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## Ishna

ActsOfGod said:


> To go a little further down the road with this:
> 
> I've heard people say that there were 10 Gurus, but in fact there really only was 1 Guru (Guru Nanak Sahib). I always understood this statement in the context of the same soul in different bodies concept. Looking at it from the perspective of the same Jyot, how does it translate?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> AoG


 
AoG Ji

I like to think that the 1 Guru is actually Guru Nanak's Guru; the "Most High".

The Guru's had one common understanding and were spreading the same light of knowledge for all people.  Think of it like an Olympic torch going from person to person, and the light it gives off is Truth tearing down useless thoughts and behaviours.

It is no more esoteric than that, and any other descriptions are poetic flourishes.

imho.


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## Sherdil

Luckysingh said:


> If you don't believe in soul but believe in a consciousness, then what exactly do you understand the difference to be ?
> Maybe you are just complicating it for yourself by over thinking and convincing ?



Soul is an Abrahamic construct. Accordingly, it is an essence trapped inside of a living body. It only escapes when the body is deceased. Some people of Abrahamic philosophy believe that the act of sneezing is the soul trying to escape the confines of the body. This is why people say "God bless you" when someone sneezes within their viscinity. 

Sikhs do not believe in a soul, but rather a consciousness. The goal of a Sikh is to align the consciousness with the divine. All consciousness comes from a single source. The Gurmukh is encouraged to see all is one, instead of distinguishing between me and you, or us and them. We are collectively a single unit. It is the perception of duality, under the veil of Maya that makes us see otherwise. 

This is why I prefer to refer to a consciousness rather than a soul. The soul conjures up a belief in the former, whereas a consciousness conjures up a belief in the latter. 

So to return to the original question, Nanak was used by the Gurus to refer to themselves and refer to the reader as well. This demonstrates that all is one. We are all Nanak in an essence. There is no "me" or "you". There is no Haumai (Hum Hai = I am). 

This is the more esoteric version of what I was trying to say.


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## chazSingh

Sherdil said:


> Soul is an Abrahamic construct. Accordingly, it is an essence trapped inside of a living body. It only escapes when the body is deceased. Some people of Abrahamic philosophy believe that the act of sneezing is the soul trying to escape the confines of the body. This is why people say "God bless you" when a someone sneezes within their viscinity.
> 
> Sikhs do not believe in a soul, but rather a consciousness. The goal of a Sikh is to align the consciousness with the divine. All consciousness comes from a single source. The Gurmukh is encouraged to see all is one, instead of distinguishing between me and you, or us and them. We are collectively a single unit. It is the perception of duality, under the veil of Maya that makes us see otherwise.
> 
> This is why I prefer to refer to a consciousness rather than a soul. The soul conjures up a belief in the former, whereas a consciousness conjures up a belief in the latter.
> 
> So to return to the original question, Nanak was used by the Gurus to refer to themselves and refer to the reader as well. This demonstrates that all is one. We are all Nanak in an essence. There is no "me" or "you". There is no Haumai (Hum Hai = I am).
> 
> This is the more esoteric version of what I was trying to say.



agree wholeheartedly, once ego is dissolved, all is one....all is God..no me, no you...all in one and one in all

soul or consciousness? just two words humans use to try to describe the same thing...a part of us which is beyond the body and the mind...either way it's there...and it's our true reality...its who we really are  only the mind wants to call it something.
I often say 'soul' and it doesn't bring about the belief in the former example you gave...i guess it's how you yourself perceive these words...

i know this thread is not about Simran/meditation ... but through Naam Simran, one can start to realise very quickly that we are not the body...that we are so much more than what our Ego has led us to believe...


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## Ishna

*Further references to Naam simran in this thread will be deleted without notice. Chazji, It can not go on like this.*


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## Harkiran Kaur

I don't know about travelling to another body - I don't think thats possible at all... however I know that Out Of Body Experiences and astral travel are very possible, in fact I know beyond all doubts.  And it's not something that is 'supernatural' it's a natural ability.... I obviously can't prove it to anyone here, so I won't even try, and I know that most would dismiss it anyway. But it is real... and it is a very life changing experience when it happens.

And Ishna Ji...thinking outside the box for a second... could 'soul' and 'light' maybe possibly be one in the same?? Soul has been referred to as the light within in many contexts (not only Sikh).


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## chazSingh

Akasha said:


> I don't know about travelling to another body - I don't think thats possible at all... however I know that Out Of Body Experiences and astral travel are very possible, in fact I know beyond all doubts.  And it's not something that is 'supernatural' it's a natural ability.... I obviously can't prove it to anyone here, so I won't even try, and I know that most would dismiss it anyway. But it is real... and it is a very life changing experience when it happens.
> 
> And Ishna Ji...thinking outside the box for a second... could 'soul' and 'light' maybe possibly be one in the same?? Soul has been referred to as the light within in many contexts (not only Sikh).



most would dismiss....i am not one of them though 

soul/light/consciousness/awareness/ - just words probably describing the same thing (us)...which in all honestly probably cannot be described...only experienced...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

The ONE GURU is SHABAD....the one we still have as SGGS....as I said the SGGS shows us clearly that  jyot..soul..blood..skin..mind..brains..memories..etc etc DONT APPLY to the SHABAD.

Guru nanak ji has already made this transparently clear in Siddh Ghosht Bani..MY GURU is SHABAD...!!! So its the SHABAD that was GURU even before Guru nanak ji was Born in 1469..and its still the GURU after 1708...and will be as long as SHABAD exists in the universe...

we make the mistake of treating human bodies..memories..brains..limbs...aangs..jyots..souls..as Guru when              its the SHABAD.


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## Harkiran Kaur

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> we make the mistake of treating human bodies..memories..brains..limbs...aangs..jyots..souls..as Guru when              its the SHABAD.



It's not the physical granth - it's the truth contained within it
It's not the messenger - it's the message itself.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

Akasha said:


> It's not the physical granth - it's the truth contained within it
> It's not the messenger - it's the message itself.




OF COURSE Akasha Ji..its NEVER been the PHYSICAL....not Guru nanak jis BODY..or his slippers..or his puggh..or his thali..glass..plates..his bedsheets...whatever...its NOT the Paper..the INK..or "Scared LIMBS"..anngs etc etc...its NOT the Horses of Guru Gobind Singh ji.or his puggh or his swords..his daggers..etc etc...NO NO NO...the SHABAD is NOT PHYSICAL. PERIOD.

People who stress the PHYSICAL are the WANNABE babas,,wannabe living Gurus..who DESIRE they be WORSHIPED event though they are DEVOID of nay SHABAD..any divine message..are absolutely EMPTY VESSELS...But they have MILLIONS of worshipers..???:motherlylove:


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## Luckysingh

It's not even the message........?
They are quite simply the words that come from straight from Waheguru's mouth.

Besides the claimed '10 commandments'- (which we don't need to discuss!)
There is no other place or thing which has the direct words from Akaal purakh himself.

It's _Dhur ki Bani._


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## japjisahib04

The message of His Word emanated from the 'Dhur' means antar atma - conscience sach de avaz jameer dee avaz and whose surat picks that avaz that awareness is called chelya.   It is all the intellectual observation of Guru Nanak? And technique to listen this message, is illustrated/teaches in SGGS.


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## Luckysingh

So are we saying that they are not the words from waheguru himself ?


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## chazSingh

Luckysingh said:


> So are we saying that they are not the words from waheguru himself ?




definitely the words of Waheguru Himself...cannot be any other way


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## Ishna

Where is the confusion?


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## japjisahib04

chazSingh said:


> definitely the words of Waheguru Himself...cannot be any other way


If you are interpretating meaning of 'dhur' as Gurbani descended upon Guru Nanak from seventh sky then I am sorry I don't agree with you. The treasure is within us - the God is within us, 'mat vich rattan jwahar manik' and as guru sahib says, 'ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰ ਕਾ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ and guru sahib was able to relish that treasure - that truth and guru sahib was able to discover the manh. Likewise there is sabd relating with Sidh and Yogi, 'ਸਨਕਾਦਿਕ ਨਾਰਦ ਮੁਨਿ ਸੇਖਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਮਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਪੇਖਾ ॥੩॥ ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਕੋਈ ਖੋਜਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਤਨ ਛੂਟੇ ਮਨੁ ਕਹਾ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੪॥  and as gurbani says,   'ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਨਹੀ ਆਵਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਗਇਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੬॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 330 clearly dismisses movement of soul to another body. It is only the thought process which can be transmitted.


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## chazSingh

japjisahib04 said:


> If you are interpretating meaning of 'dhur' as Gurbani descended upon Guru Nanak from seventh sky then I am sorry I don't agree with you. The treasure is within us - the God is within us, 'mat vich rattan jwahar manik' and as guru sahib says, 'ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰ ਕਾ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ and guru sahib was able to relish that treasure - that truth and guru sahib was able to discover the manh. Likewise there is sabd relating with Sidh and Yogi, 'ਸਨਕਾਦਿਕ ਨਾਰਦ ਮੁਨਿ ਸੇਖਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਮਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਪੇਖਾ ॥੩॥ ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਕੋਈ ਖੋਜਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਤਨ ਛੂਟੇ ਮਨੁ ਕਹਾ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੪॥  and as gurbani says,   'ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਨਹੀ ਆਵਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਗਇਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੬॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 330 clearly dismisses movement of soul to another body. It is only the thought process which can be transmitted.



i think He means, that Gurbani came direct from Waheguru, from Within Sri Guru Nanak....not externally, but within...

In the same way if by Guru Ji's grace our own ego is removed, then we will also be one with Waheguru and his will...and be tunes into this wisdom...


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## Sherdil

Sikhs are encouraged to look beyond duality. God is both the creator and the created. There is no distinction. Therefore all knowledge is divine revelation. It is the illusion of Maya that makes us perceive that certain things come from God, while other things do not. All is Him. 

Sikhs are taught that God has no form. Therefore, with what mouth and with what voice were these religious texts revealed to man? This is an Abrahamic construct that Sikhs do not believe in. Today, claiming to hear the voice of God or an angel is grounds to label you a schizophrenic.


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## chazSingh

Sherdil said:


> Sikhs are encouraged to look beyond duality. God is both the creator and the created. There is no distinction. Therefore all knowledge is divine revelation. It is the illusion of Maya that makes us perceive that certain things come from God, while other things do not. All is Him.
> 
> Sikhs are taught that God has no form. Therefore, with what mouth and with what voice were these religious texts revealed to man? This is an Abrahamic construct that Sikhs do not believe in. Today, claiming to hear the voice of God or an angel is grounds to label you a schizophrenic.



Sherdil ji, 

do your thoughts require a mouth when they manifest in your mind? lol

on your other comment you mention there is no distinction between created (form) and the creator (formless) all is god...
but you then go onto say "Therefore, with what mouth and with what voice were these religious texts revealed to man?"

i think you are getting confused in contradictions...
Concerning all is God...yes of course all is God...but one is created (temporary - the illusion), beyond that is the permanent...*our problem is putting all our faith in the temporary and forgetting the permanent... 
*
Gurbani says countless times "_When I have spoken, I spoke as You made me speak" _
Whether this be a voice in the head, inspiration, intuition, just a gut feeling ...whatever it may be...it would come from within (where Gurbani says Waheguru resides...in all of us)

Gurbani says form the very beginning of time the 'unstruck sound current resounds night and day in each and every heart"....


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## Sherdil

I'm not sure if you are backtracking or intentionally being ambiguous. This is what you said in response to Lucky:



			
				lucky said:
			
		

> So are we saying that they are not the words from waheguru himself ?





			
				chaz said:
			
		

> definitely the words of Waheguru Himself...cannot be any other way


Would you agree then that the words we are writing on this forum are also from Waheguru? 

In your reply to me you stated:


			
				chaz said:
			
		

> do your thoughts require a mouth when they manifest in your mind?


I'm not sure how this contradicts what I have said. All knowledge is divine revelation. Your thoughts and your actions come from The One.



			
				chaz said:
			
		

> on your other comment you mention there is no distinction between created (form) and the creator (formless) all is god...
> but you then go onto say "Therefore, with what mouth and with what voice were these religious texts revealed to man?"
> 
> i think you are getting confused in contradictions...
> Concerning all is God...yes of course all is God...but one is created (temporary - the illusion), beyond that is the permanent...our problem is putting all our faith in the temporary and forgetting the permanent...
> 
> Gurbani says countless times "When I have spoken, I spoke as You made me speak"
> Whether this be a voice in the head, inspiration, intuition, just a gut feeling ...whatever it may be...it would come from within (where Gurbani says Waheguru resides...in all of us)


You just regurgitated my point. What is the issue here?


----------



## ActsOfGod

japjisahib04 said:


> If you are interpretating meaning of 'dhur' as Gurbani descended upon Guru Nanak from seventh sky then I am sorry I don't agree with you. The treasure is within us - the God is within us, 'mat vich rattan jwahar manik' and as guru sahib says, 'ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰ ਕਾ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ and guru sahib was able to relish that treasure - that truth and guru sahib was able to discover the manh. Likewise there is sabd relating with Sidh and Yogi, 'ਸਨਕਾਦਿਕ ਨਾਰਦ ਮੁਨਿ ਸੇਖਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਮਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਪੇਖਾ ॥੩॥ ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਕੋਈ ਖੋਜਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਤਨ ਛੂਟੇ ਮਨੁ ਕਹਾ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੪॥  and as gurbani says,   'ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਨਹੀ ਆਵਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਗਇਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੬॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 330 clearly dismisses movement of soul to another body. It is only the thought process which can be transmitted.



I read Ang 330.  So do you understand this to mean that there is only One Universal Soul and multiple minds?

That would certainly be a different theology than I have heard before.  Interesting one, though....

AoG


----------



## chazSingh

Sherdil Ji,

*you wrote: *Sikhs are taught that God has no form. Therefore, with what mouth and  with what voice were these religious texts revealed to man? This is an  Abrahamic construct that Sikhs do not believe in. Today, claiming to  hear the voice of God or an angel is grounds to label you a  schizophrenic. *

I Wrote:*



> Originally Posted by *chaz*
> _on your other comment you mention there is no distinction between created (form) and the creator (formless) all is god...
> but you then go onto say "Therefore, with what mouth and with what voice were these religious texts revealed to man?"
> 
> i think you are getting confused in contradictions...
> Concerning all is God...yes of course all is God...but one is created  (temporary - the illusion), beyond that is the permanent...our problem  is putting all our faith in the temporary and forgetting the  permanent...
> 
> Gurbani says countless times "When I have spoken, I spoke as You made me speak"
> Whether this be a voice in the head, inspiration, intuition, just a gut  feeling ...whatever it may be...it would come from within (where Gurbani  says Waheguru resides...in all of us)_


Just because people say they hear the voice of God, doesn't mean they hear a voice saying "dude, whats life like these days"...

there are countless descriptions in Gurbani of hearing anhad shabad, of being inspired from within by Waheguru, or Experiencing Waheguru Deep within yourself....

maybe that's what people mean when they say "voice of God" ... or maybe they do hear an actual voice as well... who are we to say how God consciousness manifests...

in my opinion i would say there is a shabad within us all that if we move our consciousness to, will guide us to god consciousness....and i have no problems with calling it 'the voice of God'


----------



## Sherdil

chazSingh said:


> Just because people say they hear the voice of God, doesn't mean they hear a voice saying "dude, whats life like these days"...
> 
> there are countless descriptions in Gurbani of hearing anhad shabad, of being inspired from within by Waheguru, or Experiencing Waheguru Deep within yourself....
> 
> maybe that's what people mean when they say "voice of God" ... or maybe they do hear an actual voice as well... who are we to say how God consciousness manifests...
> 
> in my opinion i would say there is a shabad within us all that if we move our consciousness to, will guide us to god consciousness....and i have no problems with calling it 'the voice of God'



Nah...your being dodgy haha. That's not what you originally said. You're changing your story cuz you've been put on the spot. 

Anyways you dodged this question: Are the words we are writing on this forum also from Waheguru?


----------



## chazSingh

Sherdil said:


> Nah...your being dodgy haha. That's not what you originally said. You're changing your story cuz you've been put on the spot.
> 
> Anyways you dodged this question: Are the words we are writing on this forum also from Waheguru?



all i did was copy and paste my message ji   and then explained what that message meant..

there is no putting on the spot here ji...putting on spot and wanting to win an discussion serves no purpose other than puffing up ones Ego...i have been wrong many times and will continue to be wrong throughout my life..

But As Guru Ji says there is no right and wrong...just contemplation which gently guides us like a current in the water...

The words I write on this forum will be a mixture of feelings that come direct from my heart and some i right under Ego....

i can tell when it's under Ego, because it mentally drains me, and i feel 'irked' inside...

and that is what i need to get rid of through Naam Simran and interaction with my fellow human beings


----------



## Luckysingh

The insults to intelligence by some of you is shocking.
my original comment was


> They are quite *simply *the words that come straight from Waheguru's mouth


 
simply- means simple... as if explaining to a youngster !
Did i say anything about 7th sky and heavens and the words thundering down from the clouds ?

Japjisahib and sherdil have totally lost the plot and have nothing better than to poke at something and call it abrahamic.

Get this.............. *the 'Unspoken words' still came straight from waheguru's mouth(mukh)!*

does mukh= mouth ?
what is Gur-mukh ?
from whose mouth does one listen to in order to become gurmukh ?


----------



## Sherdil

Luckysingh said:


> The insults to intelligence by some of you is shocking.
> my original comment was
> 
> 
> simply- means simple... as if explaining to a youngster !
> Did i say anything about 7th sky and heavens and the words thundering down from the clouds ?
> 
> Japjisahib and sherdil have totally lost the plot and have nothing better than to poke at something and call it abrahamic.
> 
> Get this.............. *the 'Unspoken words' still came straight from waheguru's mouth(mukh)!*
> 
> does mukh= mouth ?
> what is Gur-mukh ?
> from whose mouth does one listen to in order to become gurmukh ?



The amount of backtracking you guys do is ridiculous. 

Here is the remainder of your quote:


			
				lucky said:
			
		

> Besides the claimed '10 commandments'- (which we don't need to discuss!)
> There is no other place or thing which has the direct words from Akaal purakh himself.
> 
> It's Dhur ki Bani.



You are the one who is comparing gurbani to the 10 commandments.

I asked a simple question of Chaz ji, which he doesn't want to answer, so I'll ask it to you. * Are the words we are writing on this forum also from Waheguru?*


----------



## Luckysingh

Sherdil said:


> The amount of backtracking you guys do is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> You are the one who is comparing gurbani to the 10 commandments.
> 
> I asked a simple question of Chaz ji, which he doesn't want to answer, so I'll ask it to you. *Are the words we are writing on this forum also from Waheguru?*


 
Didn't I say that, I'm not discussing 10 commandments, but that its the only claimed subject to come directly from God without a middleman ?

Who is being ridiculous ?
and who all of a sudden seems to understand the sargun and nirgun manifestations but has no desire to understand the subtle/nirgun ATMA or SOUL ???

I gave you countless questions earlier, which you ignorantly did not answer.

Stop making sikhi into your own tailored version and misleading the younger youth.


----------



## Harkiran Kaur

> ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
> Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
> One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
> ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ ਜੈਸੇ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
> Bājīgar jaise bājī pā▫ī.
> The director stages the play,
> ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪ ਭੇਖ ਦਿਖਲਾਈ ॥
> Nānā rūp bẖekẖ ḏikẖlā▫ī.
> playing the many characters in different costumes;
> ਸਾਂਗੁ ਉਤਾਰਿ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
> Sāŉg uṯār thamiĥa▫o pāsārā.
> but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes,
> ਤਬ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥
> Ŧab eko ekankārā. ||1||
> and then he is one, and only one. ||1||
> ਕਵਨ ਰੂਪ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਓ ਬਿਨਸਾਇਓ ॥
> Kavan rūp ḏaristi▫o binsā▫i▫o.
> How many forms and images appeared and disappeared?
> ਕਤਹਿ ਗਇਓ ਉਹੁ ਕਤ ਤੇ ਆਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> Kaṯėh ga▫i▫o uho kaṯ ṯe ā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. Where have they gone? Where did they come from? ||1||Pause||



From Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji pg 736

I think what both of you are trying to say... The same thing, that really there is only one and that one is all no matter how we are experiencing existence as separateness but that's the illusion. We are not and never were something or someone separate. It's like the quote above we are merely characters in a play.  But just like the actor becomes a character, that consciousness was always the actor's even while playing that part... Even if the actor is so engrossed in his part that forgets his true identity.  It's this realization that is the message, and there are no words to describe it.  It has to be experienced...


----------



## Sherdil

Akasha said:


> From Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji pg 736
> 
> I think what both of you are trying to say... The same thing, that really there is only one and that one is all no matter how we are experiencing existence as separateness but that's the illusion. We are not and never were something or someone separate. It's like the quote above we are merely characters in a play.  But just like the actor becomes a character, that consciousness was always the actor's even while playing that part... Even if the actor is so engrossed in his part that forgets his true identity.  It's this realization that is the message, and there are no words to describe it.  It has to be experienced...



:wahmunda:


----------



## chazSingh

Sherdil said:


> The amount of backtracking you guys do is ridiculous.
> 
> Here is the remainder of your quote:
> 
> 
> You are the one who is comparing gurbani to the 10 commandments.
> 
> I asked a simple question of Chaz ji, which he doesn't want to answer, so I'll ask it to you. * Are the words we are writing on this forum also from Waheguru?*



All is Waheguru, there is none other than waheguru Himself everywhere...so in that sense yes everything we write, speak, do, is waheguru...The Ego, desires, anger, greed, attachment...are all creations of waheguru..

*BUT*

We have allowed ourselves to become slaves of these..and they govern majority of the world in these times...we put our faith in these, in the created illusion, in the temporary existance...in all the joys, temptations, love of money etc etc etc and have lost almost complete touch/knowledge/experience with the permanent reality that exists within us all...

so we must try to listen only to GurBani because we know that it was formed and originated from the permament True forever existing, fearless, loving, forgiving aspect...and not the Ego ridden creation....it is current;y our only link back to our true permanent state...


Waheguru


----------



## chazSingh

Luckysingh said:


> Didn't I say that, I'm not discussing 10 commandments, but that its the only claimed subject to come directly from God without a middleman ?
> 
> Who is being ridiculous ?
> and who all of a sudden seems to understand the sargun and nirgun manifestations but has no desire to understand the subtle/nirgun ATMA or SOUL ???
> 
> I gave you countless questions earlier, which you ignorantly did not answer.
> 
> Stop making sikhi into your own tailored version and misleading the younger youth.




Waheguru!!!!!


----------



## Sherdil

chazSingh said:


> We have allowed ourselves to become slaves of these..and they govern majority of the world in these times...we put our faith in these, in the created illusion, in the temporary existance...in all the joys, temptations, love of money etc etc etc and have lost almost complete touch/knowledge/experience with the permanent reality that exists within us all...
> 
> so we must try to listen only to GurBani because we know that it was formed and originated from the permament True forever existing, fearless, loving, forgiving aspect...and not the Ego ridden creation....it is current;y our only link back to our true permanent state...



That was never the issue. You are preaching to the choir for no reason.


----------



## chazSingh

Sherdil said:


> That was never the issue. You are preaching to the choir for no reason.



you asked me if everything we are writing here comes from God...

and i'm explaining to you based on what i feel Gurbani tells me the difference between words/actions/thoughts that originate from the Ego, and words that originate from the purity of the formless...

That's all...

but yes, everything exists within Waheguru Ji's Domain


----------



## Harry Haller

Gentlemen please let us get back to the subject which is "Soul transfer to another body"


----------



## chazSingh

harry haller said:


> Gentlemen please let us get back to the subject which is "Soul transfer to another body"



lets switch bodies for the day? we both work in I.T so shouldn't be that much of a shock to the system...

I do however eat my '5 a day' fruit and Veg and hit the gym...


----------



## Luckysingh

harry haller said:


> Gentlemen please let us get back to the subject which is "Soul transfer to another body"


 
There is no more discussion as far as I can see.
The discussion was sensibly answered mostly on the 1st page !

closing the thread would be an idea !


----------



## Ambarsaria

Fellow spners this is a great topic and in many ways it encourages us to go to the core of creator and creation and how we view or understand all that.

Let us look at the Creator's human production factory. Last I checked there was no shortage of souls ready for new bodies in the creator's warehouse. There appears to be a quality improvement in place. The new souls being produced appears to be updated models as the time goes on. Does creator have a stack of souls to be recycled? That is questionable as quality improvement makes such need kind of redundant. There is a huge cry and visualizations by human bodies to find ways to save parts of themselves including what they believe the soul is. Creator is aware of it and last I had a meeting with the creator there was a great laughter emanating from that direction as to how egoistically clever we try to be. The creator is quite proud of our ingenuity.

For me the more interesting question is not how a whole soul gets embedded or takes over a body while departing from another but how souls develop or continue to exist in the first place. For me Guru Nanak's soul has emebedded parts of itself in almost all Sikhs who have understood his teachings. Similarly human souls become a conglomeration of parts of many great and all others that they interact with. It is ever evolving in life and becoming part of others and this process does not stop when one dies. I don't see the soul as simply a boxed in entity that only can move as a whole. To the contrary I find it as an amalgamation that builds from and disburses into all around.

I have some other thoughts that I would like to share as this thread evolves.

Stand to be corrected.

Sat Sri Akal.


----------



## chazSingh

Ambarsaria said:


> Fellow spners this is a great topic and in many ways it encourages us to go to the core of creator and creation and how we view or understand all that.
> 
> Let us look at the Creator's human production factory. Last I checked there was no shortage of souls ready for new bodies in the creator's warehouse. There appears to be a quality improvement in place. The new souls being produced appears to be updated models as the time goes on. Does creator have a stack of souls to be recycled? That is questionable as quality improvement makes such need kind of redundant. There is a huge cry and visualizations by human bodies to find ways to save parts of themselves including what they believe the soul is. Creator is aware of it and last I had a meeting with the creator there was a great laughter emanating from that direction as to how egoistically clever we try to be. The creator is quite proud of our ingenuity.
> 
> For me the more interesting question is not how a whole soul gets embedded or takes over a body while departing from another but how souls develop or continue to exist in the first place. For me Guru Nanak's soul has emebedded parts of itself in almost all Sikhs who have understood his teachings. Similarly human souls become a conglomeration of parts of many great and all others that they interact with. It is ever evolving in life and becoming part of others and this process does not stop when one dies. I don't see the soul as simply a boxed in entity that only can move as a whole. To the contrary I find it as an amalgamation that builds from and disburses into all around.
> 
> I have some other thoughts that I would like to share as this thread evolves.
> 
> Stand to be corrected.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



VEry nice Ji,

I believe the Soul is not bound to time and space...it has no dimensions...it is beyond the boundaries of the body and the body is only required to provide a point of reference from in order to experience the created aspect...

i am sure many Gursiks have experienced themselves as part and parcel of the whole universe not bound to the limitations of their body...and something that has unlimited potential in their purest form.

God Bless Ji


----------



## Harkiran Kaur

Here is my understanding of this topic (and by no means do I say that my interpretation is THE interpretation): 



> ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
> Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
> One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
> ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ ਜੈਸੇ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
> Bājīgar jaise bājī pā▫ī.
> The director stages the play,
> ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪ ਭੇਖ ਦਿਖਲਾਈ ॥
> Nānā rūp bẖekẖ ḏikẖlā▫ī.
> playing the many characters in different costumes;
> ਸਾਂਗੁ ਉਤਾਰਿ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
> Sāŉg uṯār thamiĥa▫o pāsārā.
> but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes,
> ਤਬ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥
> Ŧab eko ekankārā. ||1||
> and then he is one, and only one. ||1||
> ਕਵਨ ਰੂਪ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਓ ਬਿਨਸਾਇਓ ॥
> Kavan rūp ḏaristi▫o binsā▫i▫o.
> How many forms and images appeared and disappeared?
> ਕਤਹਿ ਗਇਓ ਉਹੁ ਕਤ ਤੇ ਆਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
> Kaṯėh ga▫i▫o uho kaṯ ṯe ā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. Where have they gone? Where did they come from? ||1||Pause||



SGGS P. 736

Drawing from the above:  

Every one of us are merely different characters played by the ONE universal consciousness / soul which is Waheguru Ji. But just like an actor can become engrossed in their part that they forget everything but the character they are playing, we too have forgotten our true origin. 

Having said that, Waheguru Ji is not merely us.  So the Creation IS the Creator, but the Creator is not merely the Creation... 

Why did I bring this up? Because if the underlying soul is one in the same within all of us, but we are all just different characters played by one Creator... then the whole idea of transferring souls to another body becomes a moot point.  At the base level of everything, all is ONE.  There's nothing to 'transfer'!  However, awareness can be shifted... and is what we are striving to do.  To go within, in order to find that connection, that divine within us, to realize who we really are.  

When I say I know that out of body experiences etc are real, I am not saying that I believe in anything 'paranormal' or 'supernatural' in fact... it's just what I said above... shifting awareness.  We know that everything is really one, so at the base level of things we must have access to that knowledge.  

In fact science is likeking the universe to a hologram. That would certainly explain how everything can be one, and yet when the hologram is viewed we see this illusion of space and time.  Yet every bit of the hologram contains all of the information of the whole.  The human brain is even being looked at in this light.  Think of it... every atom in your body was once part of a star - and before that was part of the big bang!  Your consciousness is not merely some byproduct of a bunch of atoms coming together and happening by accident.  Just like the atoms have always existed, consciousness too has always existed. We are all just engrossed in this play right now, playing these characters, and we have forgotten who we are - a sort of universal collective amnesia!! 

Albert Einstein:


> *"A human being is a part of the whole, called by us the "Universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."*


----------



## chazSingh

Akasha said:


> Here is my understanding of this topic (and by no means do I say that my interpretation is THE interpretation):
> 
> 
> 
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji P. 736
> 
> Drawing from the above:
> 
> Every one of us are merely different characters played by the ONE universal consciousness / soul which is Waheguru Ji. But just like an actor can become engrossed in their part that they forget everything but the character they are playing, we too have forgotten our true origin.
> 
> Having said that, Waheguru Ji is not merely us.  So the Creation IS the Creator, but the Creator is not merely the Creation...
> 
> Why did I bring this up? Because if the underlying soul is one in the same within all of us, but we are all just different characters played by one Creator... then the whole idea of transferring souls to another body becomes a moot point.  At the base level of everything, all is ONE.  There's nothing to 'transfer'!  However, awareness can be shifted... and is what we are striving to do.  To go within, in order to find that connection, that divine within us, to realize who we really are.
> 
> When I say I know that out of body experiences etc are real, I am not saying that I believe in anything 'paranormal' or 'supernatural' in fact... it's just what I said above... shifting awareness.  We know that everything is really one, so at the base level of things we must have access to that knowledge.
> 
> In fact science is likeking the universe to a hologram. That would certainly explain how everything can be one, and yet when the hologram is viewed we see this illusion of space and time.  Yet every bit of the hologram contains all of the information of the whole.  The human brain is even being looked at in this light.  Think of it... every atom in your body was once part of a star - and before that was part of the big bang!  Your consciousness is not merely some byproduct of a bunch of atoms coming together and happening by accident.  Just like the atoms have always existed, consciousness too has always existed. We are all just engrossed in this play right now, playing these characters, and we have forgotten who we are - a sort of universal collective amnesia!!
> 
> Albert Einstein:
> [/COLOR][/B]



The problem is what you say is the Truth....but the Ego in us will not allow us to accept this truth...
only when grace is upon us and we are allowed to experience this does the Ego give into this Truth that all is God, and there is none other than Him...

ਆਪੇ  ਗੁਣ  ਆਪੇ  ਕਥੈ  ਆਪੇ  ਸੁਣਿ  ਵੀਚਾਰੁ  ॥ 
आपे गुण आपे कथै आपे सुणि वीचारु ॥ 
Āpe guṇ āpe kathai āpe suṇ vīcẖār. 
O Lord, You are Your Own Glorious Praise. You Yourself speak it; You Yourself hear it and contemplate it. 
ਆਪੇ  ਰਤਨੁ  ਪਰਖਿ  ਤੂੰ  ਆਪੇ  ਮੋਲੁ  ਅਪਾਰੁ  ॥ 
आपे रतनु परखि तूं आपे मोलु अपारु ॥ 
Āpe raṯan parakẖ ṯūŉ āpe mol apār. 
You Yourself are the Jewel, and You are the Appraiser. You Yourself are of Infinite Value. 
ਸਾਚਉ  ਮਾਨੁ  ਮਹਤੁ  ਤੂੰ  ਆਪੇ  ਦੇਵਣਹਾਰੁ  ॥੧॥ 
साचउ मानु महतु तूं आपे देवणहारु ॥१॥ 
Sācẖa▫o mān mahaṯ ṯūŉ āpe ḏevaṇhār. ||1|| 
O True Lord, You are Honor and Glory; You Yourself are the Giver. ||1|| 
ਹਰਿ  ਜੀਉ  ਤੂੰ  ਕਰਤਾ  ਕਰਤਾਰੁ  ॥ 
हरि जीउ तूं करता करतारु ॥ 
Har jī▫o ṯūŉ karṯā karṯār. 
O Dear Lord, You are the Creator and the Cause. 
ਜਿਉ  ਭਾਵੈ  ਤਿਉ  ਰਾਖੁ  ਤੂੰ  ਹਰਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਆਚਾਰੁ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
जिउ भावै तिउ राखु तूं हरि नामु मिलै आचारु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Ji▫o bẖāvai ṯi▫o rākẖ ṯūŉ har nām milai ācẖār. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
If it is Your Will, please save and protect me; please bless me with the lifestyle of the Lord's Name. ||1||Pause|| 
ਆਪੇ  ਹੀਰਾ  ਨਿਰਮਲਾ  ਆਪੇ  ਰੰਗੁ  ਮਜੀਠ  ॥ 
आपे हीरा निरमला आपे रंगु मजीठ ॥ 
Āpe hīrā nirmalā āpe rang majīṯẖ. 
You Yourself are the flawless diamond; You Yourself are the deep crimson color. 
ਆਪੇ  ਮੋਤੀ  ਊਜਲੋ  ਆਪੇ  ਭਗਤ  ਬਸੀਠੁ  ॥ 
आपे मोती ऊजलो आपे भगत बसीठु ॥ 
Āpe moṯī ūjlo āpe bẖagaṯ basīṯẖ. 
You Yourself are the perfect pearl; You Yourself are the devotee and the priest. 
ਗੁਰ  ਕੈ  ਸਬਦਿ  ਸਲਾਹਣਾ  ਘਟਿ  ਘਟਿ  ਡੀਠੁ  ਅਡੀਠੁ  ॥੨॥ 
गुर कै सबदि सलाहणा घटि घटि डीठु अडीठु ॥२॥ 
Gur kai sabaḏ salāhṇā gẖat gẖat dīṯẖ adīṯẖ. ||2|| 
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, You are praised. In each and every heart, the Unseen is seen. ||2|| 
ਆਪੇ  ਸਾਗਰੁ  ਬੋਹਿਥਾ  ਆਪੇ  ਪਾਰੁ  ਅਪਾਰੁ  ॥ 
आपे सागरु बोहिथा आपे पारु अपारु ॥ 
Āpe sāgar bohithā āpe pār apār. 
You Yourself are the ocean and the boat. You Yourself are this shore, and the one beyond. 
ਸਾਚੀ  ਵਾਟ  ਸੁਜਾਣੁ  ਤੂੰ  ਸਬਦਿ  ਲਘਾਵਣਹਾਰੁ  ॥ 
साची वाट सुजाणु तूं सबदि लघावणहारु ॥ 
Sācẖī vāt sujāṇ ṯūŉ sabaḏ lagẖāvaṇhār. 
O All-knowing Lord, You are the True Way. The Shabad is the Navigator to ferry us across. 
ਨਿਡਰਿਆ  ਡਰੁ  ਜਾਣੀਐ  ਬਾਝੁ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਗੁਬਾਰੁ  ॥੩॥ 
निडरिआ डरु जाणीऐ बाझु गुरू गुबारु ॥३॥ 
Nidri▫ā dar jāṇī▫ai bājẖ gurū gubār. ||3|| 
One who does not fear God shall live in fear; without the Guru, there is only pitch darkness. ||3|| 
ਅਸਥਿਰੁ  ਕਰਤਾ  ਦੇਖੀਐ  ਹੋਰੁ  ਕੇਤੀ  ਆਵੈ  ਜਾਇ  ॥ 
असथिरु करता देखीऐ होरु केती आवै जाइ ॥ 
Asthir karṯā ḏekẖī▫ai hor keṯī āvai jā▫e. 
The Creator alone is seen to be Eternal; all others come and go. 
ਆਪੇ  ਨਿਰਮਲੁ  ਏਕੁ  ਤੂੰ  ਹੋਰ  ਬੰਧੀ  ਧੰਧੈ  ਪਾਇ  ॥ 
आपे निरमलु एकु तूं होर बंधी धंधै पाइ ॥ 
Āpe nirmal ek ṯūŉ hor banḏẖī ḏẖanḏẖai pā▫e. 
Only You, Lord, are Immaculate and Pure. All others are bound up in worldly pursuits. 
ਗੁਰਿ  ਰਾਖੇ  ਸੇ  ਉਬਰੇ  ਸਾਚੇ  ਸਿਉ  ਲਿਵ  ਲਾਇ  ॥੪॥ 
गुरि राखे से उबरे साचे सिउ लिव लाइ ॥४॥ 
Gur rākẖe se ubre sācẖe si▫o liv lā▫e. ||4|| 
Those who are protected by the Guru are saved. They are lovingly attuned to the True Lord. ||4||


----------



## linzer

This Shabad relates nicely to the topic
 S.G.G.S. page 967

ਲੰਗਰੁ ਚਲੈ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਹਰਿ ਤੋਟਿ ਨ ਆਵੀ ਖਟੀਐ ॥ 

Langar cẖalai gur sabaḏ har ṯot na āvī kẖatī▫ai. 

The kitchen of the Guru's Divine word is opened and there occurs no deficiency in his earnings. 


ਖਰਚੇ ਦਿਤਿ ਖਸੰਮ ਦੀ ਆਪ ਖਹਦੀ ਖੈਰਿ ਦਬਟੀਐ ॥ 

Kẖarcẖe ḏiṯ kẖasamm ḏī āp kẖahḏī kẖair ḏabtī▫ai. 

He expends the Lord's gift himself, eats and copiously distributes the alms. 


ਹੋਵੈ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਖਸੰਮ ਦੀ ਨੂਰੁ ਅਰਸਹੁ ਕੁਰਸਹੁ ਝਟੀਐ ॥ 

Hovai sifaṯ kẖasamm ḏī nūr arsahu kursahu jẖatī▫ai. 

The Lord's praises are sung and Divine light descends from firmament and heavenly bodies. 


ਤੁਧੁ ਡਿਠੇ ਸਚੇ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਮਲੁ ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਦੀ ਕਟੀਐ ॥ 

Ŧuḏẖ diṯẖe sacẖe pāṯisāh mal janam janam ḏī katī▫ai. 

Beholding thee, O True King, the filth of births over births is washed off. 


ਸਚੁ ਜਿ ਗੁਰਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਆ ਕਿਉ ਏਦੂ ਬੋਲਹੁ ਹਟੀਐ ॥ 

Sacẖ jė gur furmā▫i▫ā ki▫o eḏū bolhu hatī▫ai. 

The Guru uttered the truth regarding his successor. Why should we then desist from proclaiming this? 


ਪੁਤ੍ਰੀ ਕਉਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਲਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਪੀਰਹੁ ਕੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮੁਰਟੀਐ ॥ 

Puṯrī ka▫ul na pāli▫o kar pīrahu kanĥ murtī▫ai. 

The Guru's sons obeyed not his word and turned their back upon the proclaimed Guru. 


ਦਿਲਿ ਖੋਟੈ ਆਕੀ ਫਿਰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਭਾਰੁ ਉਚਾਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਛਟੀਐ ॥ 

Ḏil kẖotai ākī firniĥ banėh bẖār ucẖā▫iniĥ cẖẖatī▫ai. 

The evil-hearted sons turned rebels and making a sack-Load of sins, carry it on their head. 


ਜਿਨਿ ਆਖੀ ਸੋਈ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਤੀ ਤਿਨੈ ਥਟੀਐ ॥ 

Jin ākẖī so▫ī kare jin kīṯī ṯinai thatī▫ai. 

Whatever the Guru said, Lahna did the very same, was installed obeyed the order, was installed on the Guru's throne. 


ਕਉਣੁ ਹਾਰੇ ਕਿਨਿ ਉਵਟੀਐ ॥੨॥ 

Ka▫uṇ hāre kin uvtī▫ai. ||2|| 

Lo, who has lost and who has won? 


ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਤੀ ਸੋ ਮੰਨਣਾ ਕੋ ਸਾਲੁ ਜਿਵਾਹੇ ਸਾਲੀ ॥ 

Jin kīṯī so mannṇā ko sāl jivāhe sālī. 

He, who rendered service, is worshipped as the Guru. Which one is bitter, thistle or rice? 


ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਹੈ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਲੈ ਗਲਾ ਕਰੇ ਦਲਾਲੀ ॥ 

Ḏẖaram rā▫e hai ḏevṯā lai galā kare ḏalālī. 

Weighing the merits of both the sides, the Guru, like the God, Righteous Judge, gave the reasonable decision. 


ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਆਖੈ ਸਚਾ ਕਰੇ ਸਾ ਬਾਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਦਰਹਾਲੀ ॥ 

Saṯgur ākẖai sacẖā kare sā bāṯ hovai ḏarhālī. 

Whatever the True Guru says, the True Lord does. That thing instantaneously comes to pass. 


ਗੁਰ ਅੰਗਦ ਦੀ ਦੋਹੀ ਫਿਰੀ ਸਚੁ ਕਰਤੈ ਬੰਧਿ ਬਹਾਲੀ ॥ 

Gur angaḏ ḏī ḏohī firī sacẖ karṯai banḏẖ bahālī. 

The sovereignty of Guru Angad was proclaimed and the True Creator confirmed it. 


ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਾਇਆ ਪਲਟੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਲਿ ਤਖਤੁ ਬੈਠਾ ਸੈ ਡਾਲੀ ॥ 

Nānak kā▫i▫ā palat kar mal ṯakẖaṯ baiṯẖā sai dālī. 

Changing his body, Nanak has occupied and sat on the throne, which has hundred of scions, 


ਦਰੁ ਸੇਵੇ ਉਮਤਿ ਖੜੀ ਮਸਕਲੈ ਹੋਇ ਜੰਗਾਲੀ ॥ 

Ḏar seve umaṯ kẖaṛī maskalai ho▫e jangālī. 

Standing at his door, his followers serve him, Thus is the rust of their sins scrubbed off. 


ਦਰਿ ਦਰਵੇਸੁ ਖਸੰਮ ਦੈ ਨਾਇ ਸਚੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਲਾਲੀ ॥ 

Ḏar ḏarves kẖasamm ḏai nā▫e sacẖai baṇī lālī. 

The Guru is the saint of the Lord's door and loves the True Name and the Guru's word. 


ਬਲਵੰਡ ਖੀਵੀ ਨੇਕ ਜਨ ਜਿਸੁ ਬਹੁਤੀ ਛਾਉ ਪਤ੍ਰਾਲੀ ॥ 

Balvand kẖīvī nek jan jis bahuṯī cẖẖā▫o paṯrālī. 

Says Balwand, Guru Angad's consort, Khivi, is a good wife, who gives dense leafy shade of solace to all. 


ਲੰਗਰਿ ਦਉਲਤਿ ਵੰਡੀਐ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਖੀਰਿ ਘਿਆਲੀ ॥ 

Langar ḏa▫ulaṯ vandī▫ai ras amriṯ kẖīr gẖi▫ālī. 

She distributes the Guru's wealth in his kitchen, Nectar-sweet rice-pudding mixed with clarified butter. 


ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾ ਕੇ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਥੀਏ ਪਰਾਲੀ ॥ 

Gursikẖā ke mukẖ ujle manmukẖ thī▫e parālī. 

Bright are the faces of the Guru's Sikhs and those of the perverse grow pale like straw. 


ਪਏ ਕਬੂਲੁ ਖਸੰਮ ਨਾਲਿ ਜਾਂ ਘਾਲ ਮਰਦੀ ਘਾਲੀ ॥ 

Pa▫e kabūl kẖasamm nāl jāŉ gẖāl marḏī gẖālī. 

When Angad rendered manly service, then did his Master approve of him. 


ਮਾਤਾ ਖੀਵੀ ਸਹੁ ਸੋਇ ਜਿਨਿ ਗੋਇ ਉਠਾਲੀ ॥੩॥ 

Māṯā kẖīvī saho so▫e jin go▫e uṯẖālī. ||3|| 

Such is mother Khivi's spouse, who sustains the whole world. 


ਹੋਰਿਂਓ ਗੰਗ ਵਹਾਈਐ ਦੁਨਿਆਈ ਆਖੈ ਕਿ ਕਿਓਨੁ ॥ 

Horiŉ▫o gang vahā▫ī▫ai ḏuni▫ā▫ī ākẖai kė ki▫on. 

Guru Nanak made the Ganges flow in another direction and people say, "What has he done? 


ਨਾਨਕ ਈਸਰਿ ਜਗਨਾਥਿ ਉਚਹਦੀ ਵੈਣੁ ਵਿਰਿਕਿਓਨੁ ॥ 

Nānak īsar jagnāth ucẖhaḏī vaiṇ viriki▫on. 

God incarnate Nanak, the Lord of the world, has uttered the supremely sublime hymns. 


ਮਾਧਾਣਾ ਪਰਬਤੁ ਕਰਿ ਨੇਤ੍ਰਿ ਬਾਸਕੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਰਿੜਕਿਓਨੁ ॥ 

Māḏẖāṇā parbaṯ kar naiṯar bāsak sabaḏ riṛki▫on. 

Making a mountain has churning staff and the Snake-King his churning-string, he has churned the Divine word. 


ਚਉਦਹ ਰਤਨ ਨਿਕਾਲਿਅਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਚਿਲਕਿਓਨੁ ॥ 

Cẖa▫oḏah raṯan nikāli▫an kar āvā ga▫oṇ cẖilki▫on. 

He has extracted the fourteen invaluable objects and has illumined the whole universe. 


ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਅਹਿ ਵੇਖਾਲੀਅਨੁ ਜਿਣਿ ਐਵਡ ਪਿਡ ਠਿਣਕਿਓਨੁ ॥ 

Kuḏraṯ ah vekẖāli▫an jiṇ aivad pid ṯẖiṇki▫oṇ. 

He displayed such power when he assayed so great a person as Angad. 


ਲਹਣੇ ਧਰਿਓਨੁ ਛਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਅਸਮਾਨਿ ਕਿਆੜਾ ਛਿਕਿਓਨੁ ॥ 

Lahṇe ḏẖari▫on cẖẖaṯar sir asmān ki▫āṛā cẖẖiki▫on. 

He waved the royal umbrella over the head of Lahna and extended the canopy of his glory to the sky. 


ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਾਹਿ ਆਪੁ ਆਪੈ ਸੇਤੀ ਮਿਕਿਓਨੁ ॥ 

Joṯ samāṇī joṯ māhi āp āpai seṯī miki▫on. 

Nanak's light merged in Guru Angad's light and the Guru Him self blended Angad with Himself. 


ਸਿਖਾਂ ਪੁਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਘੋਖਿ ਕੈ ਸਭ ਉਮਤਿ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਜਿ ਕਿਓਨੁ ॥ 

Sikẖāŉ puṯrāŉ gẖokẖ kai sabẖ umaṯ vekẖhu jė ki▫on. 

Nanak tested his sikhs and his sons and all his sect saw what he had done. 


ਜਾਂ ਸੁਧੋਸੁ ਤਾਂ ਲਹਣਾ ਟਿਕਿਓਨੁ ॥੪॥ 

Jāŉ suḏẖos ṯāŉ lahṇā tiki▫on. ||4|| 

When Lahna was found immaculate, then alone the Guru established him on the throne. 


ਫੇਰਿ ਵਸਾਇਆ ਫੇਰੁਆਣਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਖਾਡੂਰੁ ॥ 

Fer vasā▫i▫ā faru▫āṇ saṯgur kẖādūr. 

Then, the True Guru, the son of Pheru, came to abide in the village of Khadoor. 


ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਨਾਲਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਹੋਰੁ ਮੁਚੁ ਗਰੂਰੁ ॥ 

Jap ṯap sanjam nāl ṯuḏẖ hor mucẖ garūr. 

Meditation, hard service and self-discipline abide with thee, O my Guru and excessive pride abides with others. 


ਲਬੁ ਵਿਣਾਹੇ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਜਿਉ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੂਰੁ ॥ 

Lab viṇāhe māṇsā ji▫o pāṇī būr. 

Avarice spoils the mortals, as the green moss does the water. 


ਵਰ੍ਹਿਐ ਦਰਗਹ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ ਕੁਦਰਤੀ ਨੂਰੁ ॥ 

varĥi▫ai ḏargėh gurū kī kuḏraṯī nūr. 

The Lord's Light spontaneously rains at the Guru's court. 


ਜਿਤੁ ਸੁ ਹਾਥ ਨ ਲਭਈ ਤੂੰ ਓਹੁ ਠਰੂਰੁ ॥ 

Jiṯ so hāth na labẖ▫ī ṯūŉ oh ṯẖarūr. 

O my Guru, thou art that peace, of which depth can be found not. 


ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਤੁਧੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਭਰਪੂਰੁ ॥ 

Na▫o niḏẖ nām niḏẖān hai ṯuḏẖ vicẖ bẖarpūr. 

thou art brimful with the nine treasure of the Name-wealth. 


ਨਿੰਦਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਜੋ ਕਰੇ ਸੋ ਵੰਞੈ ਚੂਰੁ ॥ 

Ninḏā ṯerī jo kare so vañai cẖūr. 

He, who slanders thee, is utterly ruined. 


ਨੇੜੈ ਦਿਸੈ ਮਾਤ ਲੋਕ ਤੁਧੁ ਸੁਝੈ ਦੂਰੁ ॥ 

Neṛai ḏisai māṯ lok ṯuḏẖ sujẖai ḏūr. 

The people of this world are short-sighted, but thou see afar. 


ਫੇਰਿ ਵਸਾਇਆ ਫੇਰੁਆਣਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਖਾਡੂਰੁ ॥੫॥ 

Fer vasā▫i▫ā faru▫āṇ saṯgur kẖādūr. ||5|| 

Then the True Guru, the son of Pheru, came to abide in the village of Khadoor.


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## Harry Haller

Ambarsaria said:


> Fellow spners this is a great topic and in many ways it encourages us to go to the core of creator and creation and how we view or understand all that.
> 
> Let us look at the Creator's human production factory. Last I checked there was no shortage of souls ready for new bodies in the creator's warehouse. There appears to be a quality improvement in place. The new souls being produced appears to be updated models as the time goes on. Does creator have a stack of souls to be recycled? That is questionable as quality improvement makes such need kind of redundant. There is a huge cry and visualizations by human bodies to find ways to save parts of themselves including what they believe the soul is. Creator is aware of it and last I had a meeting with the creator there was a great laughter emanating from that direction as to how egoistically clever we try to be. The creator is quite proud of our ingenuity.
> 
> For me the more interesting question is not how a whole soul gets embedded or takes over a body while departing from another but how souls develop or continue to exist in the first place. For me Guru Nanak's soul has emebedded parts of itself in almost all Sikhs who have understood his teachings. Similarly human souls become a conglomeration of parts of many great and all others that they interact with. It is ever evolving in life and becoming part of others and this process does not stop when one dies. I don't see the soul as simply a boxed in entity that only can move as a whole. To the contrary I find it as an amalgamation that builds from and disburses into all around.
> 
> I have some other thoughts that I would like to share as this thread evolves.
> 
> Stand to be corrected.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



This is one of the few posts that actually makes sense to me, it is devoid of the commonly used buzz words that seem to infect these threads, soul, conciousness, spirit, mind, all, in my view, pretty useless words at actually getting to the root of the subject. 

We live, we touch other people, we inherit traits, we inspire others with our own traits, in that respect, can my soul be transferred to another body, well absolutely, I see it in my stepson every day, and I see it in myself, as we both adopt facets of each other due to the amount of time we spend together, working. 

It also explains why in some offices, everyone sounds the same when they answer the telephone, why in certain sales environments, everyone looks and sounds like the top performer, 

nothing spiritual, no light passing through, just the ability to touch and be touched.


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## japjisahib04

harry haller said:


> This is one of the few posts that actually makes sense to me, it is devoid of the commonly used buzz words that seem to infect these threads, soul, conciousness, spirit, mind, all, in my view, pretty useless words at actually getting to the root of the subject.
> 
> We live, we touch other people, we inherit traits, we inspire others with our own traits, in that respect, can my soul be transferred to another body, well absolutely, I see it in my stepson every day, and I see it in myself, as we both adopt facets of each other due to the amount of time we spend together, working.
> 
> It also explains why in some offices, everyone sounds the same when they answer the telephone, why in certain sales environments, everyone looks and sounds like the top performer,nothing spiritual, no light passing through, just the ability to touch and be touched.


How the concept of soul originated? Before Guru Nanak the general belief was centered around physical body. In contrary to this gurbani promulgated that creator's whole show is the play of Manh. When guru sahib says, 'ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥ - in fact it is not linked with filling/appeasing of physical body but belly of manh. Similarly when gurbani, says, 'ਫਿਟੁ ਇਵੇਹਾ ਜੀਵਿਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਇ ਵਧਾਇਆ ਪੇਟੁ ॥ again it is not linked with fattening of physical body but belly of manh which does not satiate and that satiates only if tongue is quenched. Likewise we mistakenly link this pankti, ' ਭੂਖੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ ਯਹ ਮਾਲਾ ਅਪਨੀ ਲੀਜੈ ॥ with filling physical body before praying whereas again it is linked with manh as God has not given to us any 'mala' that we are trying to return. Due to this misinterpreting the grave error in understanding the gurbani is occuring and as such we keep on calling manh as soul. Atma comes and go then where does the manh lives. Not in atma's pocket atleast. 

It is claimed due to our karma in different juenes, we got the physical body to undergo various punishment or experience Him and when body is deceased a name is given to it as a soul, then question arises who gets the physical body? SOUL! Is soul compliant to physical body? If yes then it contradicts 'atma is ansh of pramatma' and as such we are undermining the soul. Any logic to give punishment to soul? That was the reason people resorted to renouncing the physical body or starting torturing the body through various rituals like fasting etc. It is all due to lack of understanding the manh. Gurbani tells us, manh tu jot sarup hai aapna mool pachan - When I begin to know myself I begin to live and understand the hukam. When I understand the hukam then I begin to understand functioning of manh.


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## Harry Haller

This video is based on the Norwegian short film A Year Along the Abandoned Road, directed by Morten Skallerud in 1991. Time lapse photography was used to make the video, at 50,000 times the normal speed; the original film was 12 minutes long and was filmed over 105 days, and edited to fit the song length and the scenes with the band members.

The subject of the short film was Børfjord, a semi-deserted fisherman's village in northern Norway, near Hammerfest.

The opening sequence features a poem written by King Olav V of Norway:

“	
When I look back
I see the landscapes
That I have walked through
But it is different

All the great trees are gone
It seems there are
Remnants of them

But it is the afterglow
Inside of you

Of all those you met
Who meant something in your life

”
—Olav Rex, August 1977

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCkbfyk6XGc


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