# Is Western Culture Bringing About Degeneration In Sikhism?



## Sikh80 (Jan 1, 2008)

*SCANNED
Is Western culture bringing about degeneration in Sikhism?*


Different cultures and way of life to affect one another but religion is more than mere culture. The strength or weakness of a person lies in his faith and convictions. Only those fall who have a wavering mind or faltering faith and there is no dearth of such people in any religion. A religion does not stand by numbers but by principles. The history of the Jews and that of the Sikhs bears witness to this fact. True Sikhism is as strong now as before. It is better to have only a few faithfuls than to have even one Judas iscariot instrumental in impaling a Christ or a faithless Gangu being the cause of bricking up the master's sons alive. A wavering mind and pretentiousness are dangerous for any person and any religion. I feel Sikhism has always been shaking off its undesirable paraphernalia and is even now putting faith to the test. Don't forget that only five could pass the great test set by Guru Gobind Singh to a gathering of 80,000 in the year 1699. I have heard of very few Sikhs who have renounced their faith and accepted any other religion and perhaps as many have accepted Sikhism by renouncing other religions. It is erroneous to think that those who cut off their hair are no more Sikhs. As long as they believe in the Gurus and the Gurubani and are ready to follow Sikh way of life they are as much the members of Sikh community as the baptised Sikhs but of course they are not true "Singhs." To be a true "Singh" they must follow the Guru's instructions in their entirety. The writer knows quite a number of shaven Sikhs who are very deeply devoted and pious have a very firm faith in the Gurus and their philosophy. What we can say about these brothers is that under some circumstances they have been compelled to take a retrogressive step and are not lost to Sikhism for ever. There is already a marked trend towards coming back to the fold like the prodigal son and the well-known forty disclaimers of Guru Gobind Singh. It is never too late to mend and never too late to get baptised. "To fall is neither dangerous nor disgraceful, but to remain prostate is both." (Konrad Adenauer)
Introduction to Sikhism - Questions and Answers on Sikhism


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## Sikh80 (Jan 1, 2008)

I am not in a position to comment upon the overall figures including non-indians who might have adopted this religion.

However, it can be safely stated that Indian Sikhs who migrate to USA cut off their hairs. This is for sure. Members may like to offer their comments.


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## spnadmin (Jan 1, 2008)

Sikh80 ji

Some Sikhs who have migrated cut their hair. But it is hard to say whether most do. Just about all the Sikhs I know in the vicinity of where I live and work keep kesh. And converts to Sikhism also keep kesh for the most part. Even if they are not baptized. So there is a lot of individual variation.

When Sikhs first migrated to the US, they settled in California, Oregon, and Washington State -- a few other places. This was from about 1880 to about 1920. Many of them did cut their hair, but remained Sikhs. They build gurdwaras soon after they arrived in the states, but did not keep the 5 K's. Their children and their children's children remain Sikhs and retain their Sikh identity. Later arrivals to those areas from the Punjab and other parts of Asia settled alongside the earlier immigrants. They do keep kesh -- of course with exceptions. So the result is a very diverse group of Sikhs living and working together, proud of their heritage, and of their identity.

Punjabi Heritage is a great online magazine that you can read if you are interested in the history of Sikh immigrants in North America.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 2, 2008)

aadji,
Thanks for quoting as above. However, we have to draw conclusion based on a larger sample size that would include overall sikh population including Canada,UK and US. But most imporatantly we have to consider the figures Of Indian sikhs as wel who would contribute about 90 percent or so of the sikhs.

It is there that one observes the fall in general level of Sikhi.
We find that in Punjab, the hub of sikhi, is not faring well so far as sikhism is concerned. Punjab is the state with skewed men:women ratio.It is about 1.2, this should be at the worst 1 i.e men=women.
like wise addiction is another problem.
There are other problems as well regarding identity of sikhs and lack of sikh icons. In India we have no one to identify with.We cannot identify ourself with our PM , Mr manmohan singh.
I have not crystallised my mind.Hope with few more replies we shall get focussed.


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## kds1980 (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the bitter truth is that turbaned sikhs are and will face lot of problem in U.S.A and
other western countries.The reason is that islamic terrorism is growing at fast pace and majority of world have no clue about sikhism.and whenever they will  strike there is going to be a strong reaction and as a most visible persons turbaned sikhs will be worst.So future is not so bright for turbaned sikhs in west as well as in india.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 2, 2008)

sikhs are also not treated well. The French turban issue is the case.Kds ji what do you think can be a possible solution.?In Us we have the problem of hate crimes. The problems in INdia have already been highlighted.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 2, 2008)

There may be chances that the 'white sikhs' grow.With the growth of this phenomenon there are chances that some white sikh may become icon like Bill gates,Ln Mittal, Swaraj pal etc, so as to name a few. In that case there are chances that the sikhi may get some impetus as young sikhs will have some one to identify with. 
however, it is my opinion.


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## kds1980 (Jan 2, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> sikhs are also not treated well. The French turban issue is the case.Kds ji what do you think can be a possible solution.?In Us we have the problem of hate crimes. The problems in INdia have already been highlighted.



The french turban law is not against sikhism or sikhs.It is mainly against islam.Let me show you something

News | Pakistan | Cleric&rsquo;s chilling warning to UK | The Sun |HomePage|News

Rehamn, in a flowing grey beard and turban, explained Islamic, or Sharia Law as we sat surrounded by some of his 250 students. 

He said: “Adulterers who are married should be buried in earth to the waist and stoned to death. 

“Homosexuals must be killed – it’s the only way to stop them spreading. It should be by beheading or stoning, which the general public can do. 

“Thieves should have their hands cut off. Women should remain indoors and films and pop music should be banned.”

So what does he think of Britain? The dad insisted: “The nonbelievers must be converted to Islam. Morals in your society, with women wearing revealing clothes, have gone wrong.” 



Scary ... playground nuke

Phil Hannaford

The spot where enriched uranium is produced for Pakistan’s 80 to 120 nuclear warheads is behind razor wire less than five miles from where we spoke. 

A dummy missile even sits in a children’s playground in Kahuta. 

Only this month, doomed opposition leader Benazir Bhutto raised the spectre of al-Qaeda-linked Islamic militants seizing control of Pakistan’s nuclear warheads – and activity by radicals near Kahuta. 

Despite the efforts of politicians such as her to champion democracy, the country has long been a hotbed of Islamic extremism and there is no shortage of potential martyrs. 

At the Red Mosque in the heart of the capital Islamabad, Maulana Mohavya Irshad, 24, stared coldly at me. He said: “I’m ready to become a suicide bomber and lay down my life for Islam. Democracy is wrong. Earth belongs to God and God’s law must be implemented. 

“I hope Britain and the rest of the world will have Sharia Law this century. We will continue to sacrifice our lives to achieve this.”

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now If these mullah's give these types of speeches in turban and beard then hatred against beards and turbans is obvious.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 2, 2008)

*French Sikh Turban Issue Raised at UNESCO Conference *​*Sunday 12th of June 2005 *
*Anoop Singh - Panthic Weekly Staff *​


Panthic Weekly: French Sikh Turban Issue Raised at UNESCO Conference








*****************


The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab
***************************


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## Sikh80 (Jan 2, 2008)

*European Sikhs approach EU on turban issue *
*Sarbjit Dhaliwal*
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Punjab


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## Sikh80 (Jan 2, 2008)

US Congressman Honda to take up Sikh turban issue with France - Yahoo! India News


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 2, 2008)

kds1980 said:


> One of the bitter truth is that turbaned sikhs are and will face lot of problem in U.S.A and
> other western countries.The reason is that islamic terrorism is growing at fast pace and majority of world have no clue about sikhism.and whenever they will  strike there is going to be a strong reaction and as a most visible persons turbaned sikhs will be worst.So future is not so bright for turbaned sikhs in west as well as in india.



this is a cop-out.  a pathetic excuse used by weak willed sikhs who just want an excuse to cut off their kes.  it's simply untrue.  the vast majority of turbaned sikhs in the US enjoy a normal life.  it's only a handful of very highly publicized incidents which makes people in india think that americans hate turbans.

i live in texas, the heart of racist, christian america, and NONE of my turbaned sikh friends have suffered serious harassment over their turbans or ethnicity.  this includes people who have lived their whole life here.  maybe an offhand comment once in a while from an ignorant jerk...  but everyone who is at all "different" has to suffer through that once in a while, regardless of turban or race.

i suffer FAR more harassment for being a woman than i ever will for wearing a turban.

the fact of the matter is that young guys want to look like bollywood heroes and bhangra stars.  it's not "western culture" that's causing problems among sikhs, it's bollywood, the indian media, and the hinduization of india.


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 2, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> I am not in a position to comment upon the overall figures including non-indians who might have adopted this religion.
> 
> However, it can be safely stated that Indian Sikhs who migrate to USA cut off their hairs. This is for sure. Members may like to offer their comments.




that's a pretty sweeping generalization.  i'd say it depends on the community.  many of those who came here for political asylum in the 80s had already cut their kes to escape persecution while in india.  

most of those who cut their kes in the US are laborers and farmers who want to "fit in" to their new community.  most harassment, after all, comes from uneducated laborers these sikhs will encounter at work.  many of these people are second and third generation american sikhs.

among highly educated sikhs, you'll see far more keeping turbans and full beards.  walk around a company like microsoft and see for your self the large number of turbaned sikhs in technical and managerial positions.  

and among white sikh converts, you'll see nearly 100% keeping kes and wearing turbans.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 2, 2008)

You should be right about that you have stated. I have seven male members from my nearest relation sides who have shred ofh their hairs. 

They earn in dollars and spend minimum 
amoun there and send the money back to India. Indian sikhs are getting rich and have disposable money that they did not have earlier.It might be one of the reasons that the Indian sikhs are affected by the western Dollar.

The problem may not have any direct linkage with the westernisation of indian sikhs who move to US but the money thet generate degenerates sikhi, to some extent, in Punjab as persons here are prune to become lax and lazy when the cream costs nothing.


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## punjabikiren (Jan 3, 2008)

i am a 17 year old sikh girl born and brought up in england mums religious dad isent at all drinks smokes everyfin n i have respected my religion bcuz i am the only girl in the area dat i live who hasent cut her hair yes i wear english clothes but no revealing ones but never shown my legs or cut my hair i have also never drank and smoked but will not lie i have been tempted just because everyone else does but havent


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 3, 2008)

Sikh80 said:


> You should be right about that you have stated. I have seven male members from my nearest relation sides who have shred ofh their hairs.




ask them what harassment or abuse they suffered to make them cut their hair.

i bet they'll say they just wanted to "fit in", or they thought they'd get a job easier.

trust me, all of my turban wearing friends have VERY good jobs at high-tech and financial institutions, as well as government jobs, while the cut surds i know of are usually working in gas stations and liquor stores and driving taxis.  

it's just an excuse.


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## drkhalsa (Jan 3, 2008)

> ask them what harassment or abuse they suffered to make them cut their hair.
> 
> i bet they'll say they just wanted to "fit in", or they thought they'd get a job easier.
> 
> ...



I agree with you Jasleen .

My experience also says the same .

BUT

The for some one who is traveling for first time  there are lot of concerns that he might carry just due to Odd media reports .
This happened with me when I travelled to Florida with my friends( all with short hairs). I was all woried the moment I left London that something can spoil our holiday .
There were lot of worries like something at airport security Check in New york so something like that in Florida . I was bit apprehensive as I had read a lot of Amricans in general Ignorance about world outside America 

But inspite of all these worries nothin happened in my 15day trip .Absolutely nothin at all .May be I was Lucky I thought at that time .But I know now that this is very usual outcome and not something that is comsidered lucky .

But still being a turbaned sikh does give you some extra hardships at mental level when travelling to new places .I still hold this Idea but now I consider it all part of the game


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## Sinister (Jan 3, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> ask them what harassment or abuse they suffered to make them cut their hair.
> 
> i bet they'll say they just wanted to "fit in", or they thought they'd get a job easier.
> 
> ...


 
what's wrong with working on a gas station, liqour store or driving a taxi? 

nothing personal, but I think putting a negative spin on jobs is a show of elitism and i think you might have offended half the taxi drivers in New york, chicago and toronto....(who are amritdharis) (which is a low blow...shallow to say the least)

questions:

do amritdhari 'high-tech/ financial workers' think their shyte stinks? or is it custom amongst people like this to pretend like it doesnt?

is your boss a 'cut surd'? is that how you view different people? (ie: every punjabi gone mona is a person who has been harrased and abused? no offense but that is a weird conception of reality, discounting the fact that it might have been a rational and conscious choice)

hinduization of india? not so much 'hinduization' as it is the natural course of human evolution to reject and negate ritual, ornamentation and most importantly religion.
do your parents still wear their bell bottoms with platform shoes?

Cheers Kelly
and lets try to keep the anti-GOI rants at minimums...they're a little embarrasing to read especially if they are inconclusive and false. 

All hail Mcdonalds and our Western Corporate overlords.


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 3, 2008)

Sinister said:


> what's wrong with working on a gas station, liqour store or driving a taxi?
> 
> nothing personal, but I think putting a negative spin on jobs is a show of elitism and i think you might have offended half the taxi drivers in New york, chicago and toronto....(who are amritdharis) (which is a low blow...shallow to say the least)




nothing personal?  then why do you insist on reading so much into my words?  i never said there was anything negative about working a low paying job.  those are YOUR words.  my point was that if people think they cannot get high paying or high skilled jobs because of a turban, they are wrong.  

i mean no offense to blue collar workers.  


i apologize if this offends you.


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 3, 2008)

Sinister said:


> and lets try to keep the anti-GOI rants at minimums...they're a little embarrasing to read especially if they are inconclusive and false.
> 
> All hail Mcdonalds and our Western Corporate overlords.



not sure what this is in reference to.  perhaps you could direct your comments at my actual posts.  i don't see anything about GOI in the post you quoted.


thanks.


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## Sinister (Jan 3, 2008)

Kelly ji

I detect a negative spin and some elitism which is fully understandable and nothing to be ashamed of, considering the conditions you were raised in (corporate america..where the dollar is mightier than lifes minor foibles)...read your words again; carefully and honestly



there are 3 types of people in this world:

those who speak the truth

those who lie to others and 

those who lie to themselves




"cut surds"? 
what is the direct meaning of this carefully manufactured word?

and I thankyou in advance for dancing around my questions 

PS: the GOI is the from your "hinduization" comment. upon closer inspection I believe both enitities are interelated than initially meets the eye.


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 3, 2008)

Sinister said:


> Kelly ji
> 
> I detect a negative spin and some elitism which is fully understandable and nothing to be ashamed of, considering the conditions you were raised in (corporate america..where the dollar is mightier than lifes minor foibles)...read your words again; carefully and honestly
> 
> ...




so now you imply that i'm a liar.  nice.  are you sure this isn't personal?  and you know NOTHING about the conditions i was raised in, but thanks for playing.

"cut surd" is a very common term for sikhs who cut their hair.  surd is a short/slang form of "sardar".  cut obviously refers to the hair cut.  it's not "carefully manufactured", in fact, if i had been "careful", i probably wouldn't have used it, because i should have known you'd attack me for it.  it's not meant to be an insult, i know many short haired people born to sikh families who refer to themselves in this way.  perhaps it's not common slang where you live, but it's pretty common in the US west coast.  

hinduization of sikhs has very little to do with the GOI, unless the GOI is run by hindutva...  but last time i checked the PM was a sikh, so there goes your extremely tenuous connection.

please try to read my words at face value.  i promise, i'm not hiding any secret derogatory or negative messages in coded words.  i speak plainly what's on my mind, and i wish you'd do me the favor of reading my words rather than what you want my words to mean.


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 3, 2008)

and by the way, my name is Jasleen, it was changed in accordance with maryada by taking a hukamnama from Guru Granth Sahib ji.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 4, 2008)

what a post...whew!!!!!!!!!!

getting hair cut might or mightnot have linkage to hrassment...sometimes its personal choice or own inerpretation of SGGS, which i think every person is entitled to, as Guru -Sikh relation is one to one...and meanings and interpretations cannot be forced upon.

we confuse religion and philosophy and that's when problems and debates creep in.

jasleen ji

you post was offensive, not only to blue collared ppl but maybe also to people who might have hair cut. does keeping hair mean some kind of elitism?

of course religions are built to give the feeling of elite!!!

what a stark contrast to what the underlying philosophy states. 

anyways, you apologised only to blue collared ppl...so just brought up this point.
 no offense taken personally


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 4, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> jasleen ji
> 
> you post was offensive, not only to blue collared ppl but maybe also to people who might have hair cut. does keeping hair mean some kind of elitism?




no offense was intended to blue collar workers, i was simply stating my personal observation based on my interactions with west coast sikhs.  

keeping hair does not imply elitism, it shows dedication to Guru sahib's hukam.  bas.

i will apologize again, as i think my english may be poor and is confusing to some people.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 4, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> and by the way, my name is Jasleen, it was changed in accordance with maryada by taking a hukamnama from Guru Granth Sahib ji.


 
You are lucky. REgarding communicating in english yes, it is not a very perfect tool like our Gurmukhi or Hindi. These are st. Forward languages.


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## Sikh80 (Jan 4, 2008)

Sinister said:


> Kelly ji
> 
> I detect a negative spin and some elitism which is fully understandable and nothing to be ashamed of, considering the conditions you were raised in (corporate america..where the dollar is mightier than lifes minor foibles)...read your words again; carefully and honestly
> 
> ...


 
Cut surds is fairly accepted term and is in circulation for quite some time. There is nothing wrong in its usage. Some Sehajdharis prefer to be known as cut surds as compared to Mona sikhs.


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## Sinister (Jan 4, 2008)

Although I may bite sometimes; it’s important to notice that my fangs are not filled with venom but truth serum. 



jasleen_kaur said:


> please try to read my words at face value. i promise, i'm not hiding any secret derogatory or negative messages in coded words. i speak plainly what's on my mind, and i wish you'd do me the favor of reading my words rather than what you want my words to mean.


 
Any person with a millivolt of synaptic activity could extract the meaning of your original post (it was in the linguistic prose…a comparison…of good vs not so good or bad)…and it’s a good thing you apologized for it. So I would like to say thank you … that gives me so much more respect for you Jasleen ji and a warm fuzzy feeling of satisfaction; that I got through to you.

But that doesn’t, not even for a second, mean I do not understand your post or misinterpret you…you’re a fantastic and genuine person…just put a little bit more thought into your posts, it’ll save me time and effort.

Now, as far as your name goes… I honestly liked Kelly better, but I will call you Jasleen if you wish it be so…
i was also contemplating a new name for myself, so why dont you go ahead and call me "Big Pappy".(an honorable name bestowed upon me by my friends).




aside: 

Now for my contribution to this thread. Yes, ‘Westernization’ is the greatest threat to Sikhism. Because western culture brought with it democracy and the corporation, which replaced the existing Asiatic Mode of production (it’s that simple and natural). Do you fight it? Or do you submit to the new world order? I haven’t a clue, nor an alternative viable model, which renders any action against the establishment as useless.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 4, 2008)

<<Cut surds is fairly accepted term and is in circulation for quite some time. There is nothing wrong in its usage. Some Sehajdharis prefer to be known as cut surds as compared to Mona sikhs.>>>

hahaha

how many "types" of sikhs are there...???

LOL


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 4, 2008)

<‘Westernization’ is the greatest threat to Sikhism>

yes to "sikhism", no to "sikhi"


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 4, 2008)

Sinister said:


> Any person with a millivolt of synaptic activity could extract the meaning of your original post (it was in the linguistic prose…a comparison…of good vs not so good or bad)…and it’s a good thing you apologized for it. So I would like to say thank you … that gives me so much more respect for you Jasleen ji and a warm fuzzy feeling of satisfaction; that I got through to you.
> 
> But that doesn’t, not even for a second, mean I do not understand your post or misinterpret you…you’re a fantastic and genuine person…just put a little bit more thought into your posts, it’ll save me time and effort.



i apologize for my poor english.  as i've said several times, i honestly meant no "good vs bad", only an example of how different communities integrate into society.  i will try to work on my phrasing in the future.


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## Sinister (Jan 4, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> <‘Westernization’ is the greatest threat to Sikhism>
> 
> yes to "sikhism", no to "sikhi"


 

I wouldnt be to sure...check out my post on Objective morality...there is a new beast in town...shes 5'3 and barely 130 pounds, but she packs a punch.


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## Sinister (Jan 4, 2008)

Lets all learn to laugh things off (its never good to leave something like this hanging)

Let me tell you a story: 

My next door neighbours, Lady Elaine and Fred Buttercup, have a family. All four of them are ballet dancers. Every night, when the moon is full, they put on Raccoon costumes and dance in our street to a variety of Salzburg era symphonies. The play starts in old Tripoli where Hannibal was born and continues until the set changes to that of Carthaginian docks and barracks. It always stops short of the Roman invasion. Every full moon that passes I see a different play; with different scenario’s, different lines, different sets but the main plot and the characters never change. There is the mother, the father and the children…3 characters

so the raccoons pretend as if they are watching history pass them by
theres a mother raccoon…but its actually just Lady Elaine
theres a father raccoon…not to worry its just Fred Buttercup
and there are two children raccoons 
a boy raccoon and 
a girl raccoon (synonymous and joint at the hip)

It is counter-intuitive considering raccoons are indigenously North American in origin and the play starts in Tripoli?  However, the play is being conducted in North America 
Are you following?

I get up every morning feeling like Hannibal crossing the Alps on an elephant. By the end of the day I am broken and tired… And enjoy everything in-between even the broken and tired part.

now what can you possibly make of this story?????  (just dont tell me...i don't want to hear it...just keep with you)

Art has no boundaries no sentiments, no morals, just aesthetics and taste.

My internet addiction post coupled with the new one on Objective Morality addresses all these issues.

Cheers (considering you did not approve of toodles…inside joke).. I too am sorry


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 4, 2008)

Ayn Rand has failed


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 4, 2008)

ayn rand is not a threat.  in my experience, she's only interesting to cynical university students, and they grow out of it as soon as they enter the real world.


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## Sinister (Jan 5, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> Ayn Rand has failed




yes she has failed miserably...but not everywhere and not on everything


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

what matters is closest to me..and she failed there


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## Sinister (Jan 5, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> what matters is closest to me..and she failed there


 
opinions galore

may i kindly ask where and on what? 

i'm not going to try and debate you or anything....I know there is something in what she is saying that is wrong...I myself am having trouble pin-pointing exactly where it is. :crazy:

but i dont think its on her discussion of altruism ... i think shes nailed that head on (well at least for me)


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

altruism -

hmm

here is something to ponder

she fails to explain involuntary altruistic behaviour

eg

you catch hold of a person who just stumbled

what do you have to gain?

nothing...yet you helped.....


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

<<opinions galore

may i kindly ask where and on what? >>

free spirit...

the philosophy espoused by her is unable to distinguish between free spirit/soul (if you may call it) and mind.

and in my understanding and belief( experience) both are different


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## Sinister (Jan 5, 2008)

that does sound right

involuntary altruism ....hmmm


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## Sinister (Jan 5, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> <<opinions galore
> 
> may i kindly ask where and on what? >>
> 
> ...


 

yea i understand why someone of faith would diverge here.  (well its pretty obvious why i wouldnt):hmm:


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## Sinister (Jan 5, 2008)

do you agree with what she says on voluntary (conscious) altruism?

i think there might be something wrong with that as well


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

as jasleen ji pointed out...there is a phase of Ayn Rand everyone passes through...and outgrows..


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

well

her point on voluntary altruism is valid to some extent

and mind is what is embroiled in maya ~ gain, profit 

so i am surprised that while trying to disapprove all that, her own logic leaves space for the questiona nd situation i slipped in.

it was an "aha" moment for me while reading her "Romantic Manifesto"

i left te book halfway


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

gggg

i am sleepy


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## Sinister (Jan 5, 2008)

well i dont really like this woman ... im trying to stay away from her...but am stumped


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

do read her life story...you will figure out why she is so bitter


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## Sinister (Jan 5, 2008)

any book recomendations? or biographies?


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## Sinister (Jan 5, 2008)

I am currently (well... when not working) reading 

Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand by Leonard Peikoff

i know of one critic Mr Wittgenstein and some Logical Positivists who criticize her works (im going to have to take a look at those as well...sometime down the road)


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

"the Ayn Rand Cult"

"The Passion of Ayn Rand"

i haven't read the first one in toto..it was to vitrolic for my taste..

had gleaned over most of second...a balanced book


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

read her novel "we the living"

it is almost an autobiography ~ almost


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## Sinister (Jan 5, 2008)

thankyou


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

innit funny??

we are discussing Ayn Rand in Gurmat Vichaar..

wow !!


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## Sinister (Jan 5, 2008)

:rofl!!:

LOL

i know 

but if an anti-sikh ever existed ... it is this woman. I have been reading her stuff and almost everything she says is the complete opposite of sikhi

which is why i veiw her as sikhi's greatest threat. 

kind of ties in with the whole "westernization" of sikhi and is sikhi under threat from the west

well ya
and Ayn Rand must be a crusader


cheers 

to much randian thought for tonight


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jan 5, 2008)

there have been many

neitszche (sic) is anti everything

 plato to quite some extent


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## kds1980 (Jan 5, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> this is a cop-out.  a pathetic excuse used by weak willed sikhs who just want an excuse to cut off their kes.  it's simply untrue.  the vast majority of turbaned sikhs in the US enjoy a normal life.  it's only a handful of very highly publicized incidents which makes people in india think that americans hate turbans.



O.K. JAsleen lets continue our discussion

I disagree that there is no racism.Recently I was discussing This issue with my uncle and he too is so much scared about his son if he chooses to move to U.S.A.Please remember without fire there is no smoke.As far fit in arguement is concerned then apart from north india turbaned sikhs have to fit in society everywhere but still cases of sikhs moving to south india or east india and cutting there hair is rare.I am sure there must be some reason for sikhs to cut there hair after moving to u.s.a or europe.



> the fact of the matter is that young guys want to look like bollywood heroes and bhangra stars.  it's not "western culture" that's causing problems among sikhs, it's bollywood, the indian media, and the hinduization of india.



First let me define you western culture in indian sense.In india a western culture mean's
The culture of Dating,clubbing , premarital sex,girl's wearing exposing clothes etc.
and this culture has spread and spreading at fast rate and in this culture there is hardly any place for religious symbols.So modern western cuture is the main reason for sikhs abandoning turban.also hindu's too are facing this problem very much and there youth's are also getting away from religion.

As far as bollywood is concerned they too make fun of all the indian traditions and show 's heroes in typical western clothes


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## kds1980 (Jan 5, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> ask them what harassment or abuse they suffered to make them cut their hair.
> 
> i bet they'll say they just wanted to "fit in", or they thought they'd get a job easier.
> 
> ...



By writing this you have proved my point which i said in another thread that it is very difficuilt for poor sikhs to wear turban.The main factor is that the educated intellectual world is entirly different from grond level world.The people who are very educated and doing high tech job's are generally financially sound .There friend circle is also educated.
They can easily sue their employer if they face discrimination and could even kick a job.
But people who do low level job's have entirely different life.The amount of racism they face is too much.They are desperate so they can't even kick job's.They just entirely live on their own.For them main Thing is just survival.

That's why I am afraid that if turbaned sikhs will discriminate against these people then they will move away from sikhism forever


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## kds1980 (Jan 5, 2008)

Jasleen please also read the following ongoing discussion on sikhnet about racism in usa.the experiance sikhs are writing on sikhnet is just shocking

Re: Two Indian Americans shot dead in San Francisco


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 5, 2008)

just for the record, i never said there was "no racism".  of course there is racism in the us.  lots of it.  against EVERYONE, not only against turbanned sikhs.  

my point is that there's not nearly as much hate toward sikhs as sikhs in india seem to think.

i remember a few years back, a sikh cab driver in seattle was stabbed to death.  everyone was yelling about racism and hate crimes...  turns out the same attacker had stabbed two other cab drivers, one white and one mexican.  he was a simple robber.  one of his victims was sikh and suddenly it's not safe to wear a turban?

look if sikhs work dangerous jobs, they're just as much at risk of violence as any other person.   the world is a violent place.  it sucks.  the best thing we can do is learn to defend ourselves so we can survive if something does happen.


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