# Why Are My Animals More Sikh Than Me?



## Harry Haller (Nov 1, 2011)

As human beings we have been blessed with reason, hooray! This enables us to cheat, lie, surrender to our ego, dominate other members of our species, dominate other species, and make changes to our environment that are not consistent with the order of things, consonance. 

This comes back in my view, to being true. Animals, plants, on the whole are true to themselves, they are true to the essence of Creator that resides within them, they follow and do what they were meant to do, and in doing so confirm themselves as fully fledged members of creation. 

What do we do? We lie, we are not true to ourselves, how ironic that the meaning of life is to give up lying, cheating, ego, pride, attachment, until we are pure enough to behave like the very animals we wish to dominate, I have a few theories as to why hair is so important, but this again confirms the need to return to the whole, to innocence, to be complete, to behave as creator intended, like animals, we can learn a lot from our animal neighbours, we can learn to be ourselves. 

So we learn, we study, we pray, we do sewa, in the hope that one day We can tune into the essence of Creator that animals are already in tune with, so that we can find the enlightenment that is already there, maybe we look too hard for enlightenment, instead of gaining enlightenment, we should just concentrate on losing all the obstructions that are weakening our connection, how animals are lucky, they can just get on with living and being part of creation


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## jasbirkaleka (Nov 1, 2011)

How very true Harry ji, I have always preferred the company of animals as compared to human-beings, (supposedly created in God"s own image). In fact I have my own mini-zoo at my house, in which I keep all kinds of birds and animals, like budgerigars,{censored}atiels, love-birds etc. I also have ducks. geese. guinea fowl, a pair of emu,rabbits and six dogs. They all are kept in a large inclosure and I make it a point to spend atleast a few hours amongst them,morning and evening, every day. Peace and solace  that I experience at that moment, at-least for me, no amount of prayers and meditation can achieve. This is my belief, but I  know some guys who feel ill at ease just being near animals.:singhsippingcoffee:


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 1, 2011)

jasbirkaleka said:


> How very true Harry ji, I have always preferred the company of animals as compared to human-beings, (supposedly created in God"s own image). In fact I have my own mini-zoo at my house, in which I keep all kinds of birds and animals, like budgerigars,{censored}atiels, love-birds etc. I also have ducks. geese. guinea fowl, a pair of emu,rabbits and six dogs. They all are kept in a large inclosure and I make it a point to spend atleast a few hours amongst them,morning and evening, every day. Peace and solace  that I experience at that moment, at-least for me, no amount of prayers and meditation can achieve. This is my belief, but I  know some guys who feel ill at ease just being near animals.:singhsippingcoffee:


Jasbirkeleka ji so wonderfully stated.  People who cannot relate to animals, in my thinking have no chance of living in consonance with creation or the ability to find so called "naam", waheguru, etc.

Isn't there also a saying for dogs at least that,



> Selecting a dog is the only choice you have in your life to pick a relative.













Believe it or not at one time I was in the way of our family getting a dog.  Now he trusts me more than anyone else in the house.

By the way the breed is "Tibetan Spaniel" raised originally by the monks in Tibet as watch dogs (acute sense of presence, hearing, smell, vibrations, etc.) and bed warmers (very fast metabolism).  They don't have hair but fur and shed the undercoat they grow for winter in early spring.  They are also known as mini-Lions because of their composure and I believe ours does not think he is mini at all lol.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Nov 1, 2011)

What about wayward animals?  The crazy lion who gets a taste for humans (you hear of it sometimes, it's not a case of starvation, but crazy lion, apparently).  Are they still as pure as we imagine them to be?

Also, what about when a human interferes with an animal's development?  For instance, animals who are starved, beaten, or made to fight other animals, and it alters their psychology, so you get a dog who is terrified of men, a dog who can't be let near other dogs because all it's ever know is being put with them to fight to the death?

It is easy to see our loving pets who have known nothing but love give pretty much nothing but love in return, and extent that sentiment to all domestic pets, when they're actually very different from each other depending on how they've been raised.

There was a female fighter dog at the local animal shelter, she was in a run yard, and some puppies were in the run yard next to her, and the attendant wasn't supervising at the time, and one puppy got a bit too curious and somehow the fighter dog managed to get hold of the puppy's leg under the yard fence... so she ripped it off.  The puppy died.  Is that consonance?

Are domestic pets really living in consonance with creation or are they living in consonance with the Will of Humans?  Is that consonance?


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 1, 2011)

> People who cannot relate to animals, in my thinking have no chance of living in consonance with creation or the ability to find so called "naam", waheguru, etc


 
Veer ji we relate to our animals because we consider them ours,but to find Waheguru you have to relate and consider other people as ours ,that ofcourse is considerably harder to do than loving ones dog,although I love mine do I love the next door neighbours one as much?


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 1, 2011)

*Ishna Bhain ji** and sp veer ji* thanks for your posts.  Some comments for consideration.

Ishna Bhain ji's observations first.


> What about wayward animals?  The crazy lion who gets a taste for humans (you hear of it sometimes, it's not a case of starvation, but crazy lion, apparently).  Are they still as pure as we imagine them to be?


_What makes Lions not to go for delicacies if these happen to be humans for some of them?  Taste is also what they are born with_. _ If i happen to be the one they want to eat and attack me then we have three choices.  Defend myself, allow them to eat, or kill and save the pelt as a trophy so it does not go to waste.  All are in consonance._



> Also, what about when a human interferes with an animal's development?  For instance, animals who are starved, beaten, or made to fight other animals, and it alters their psychology, so you get a dog who is terrified of men, a dog who can't be let near other dogs because all it's ever know is being put with them to fight to the death?


_Evil (ਪਾਪ/Paap) is not transferable.  Evil is the trainer/custodian and not the dog._



> There was a female fighter dog at the local animal shelter, she was in a run yard, and some puppies were in the run yard next to her, and the attendant wasn't supervising at the time, and one puppy got a bit too curious and somehow the fighter dog managed to get hold of the puppy's leg under the yard fence... so she ripped it off.  The puppy died.  Is that consonance?


_The wolf behavior in a dog is consonance._ _Who ever brought them near to each other is the wrong doer._



> Are domestic pets really living in consonance with creation or are they living in consonance with the Will of Humans?  Is that consonance?


_If dogs have the ability and flexibility and capability to live with others and be happy and loving, that is the higher state of consonance where species share a loving relationship.__  Just like we encourage inter-faith dialog here at spn._

*Sp ji* comments on your post below,


> Veer ji we relate to our animals because we consider them ours,but to  find Waheguru you have to relate and consider other people as ours ,that  of course is considerably harder to do than loving ones dog,


_Failure to live with our own species is not the basis of excluding living in consonance with others. _



> although I  love mine do_ I love the next door neighbours one as much?_


_
That is the attachment/moh thief in you.  If you did love the next door dog more than his/her family that will be perhaps very agonizing to the next door dog because he will miss the attachment with you a lot while spending most of his time next door.  This is one reason that I find it futile to eradicate so called thieves.__  Even the dogs innately are more attached to their own family compared to strangers.__  That is in the creation we all are and is nothing foreign._

Sat Sri Akal and one mundahug for Ishna ji and one mundahug for sp ji.


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## jasbirkaleka (Nov 1, 2011)

Ishna said:


> What about wayward animals?  The crazy lion who gets a taste for humans (you hear of it sometimes, it's not a case of starvation, but crazy lion, apparently).  Are they still as pure as we imagine them to be?
> 
> Also, what about when a human interferes with an animal's development?  For instance, animals who are starved, beaten, or made to fight other animals, and it alters their psychology, so you get a dog who is terrified of men, a dog who can't be let near other dogs because all it's ever know is being put with them to fight to the death?
> 
> ...



Ishna ji,
 Man is the most dangerous living-being on earth. Animals hunt only when they are  hungry, or attack only when they feel that there is a threat,real or imagined to their life. 
But in the case of Man it is just the opposite.More the powerful he gets, hungrier he gets for more power. As history proves, to attain that, he has been much,much more  cruel, vicious and revengeful than any other animal can ever be.


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## kds1980 (Nov 1, 2011)

jasbirkaleka said:


> Ishna ji,
> Man is the most dangerous living-being on earth. Animals hunt only when they are  hungry, or attack only when they feel that there is a threat,real or imagined to their life.
> But in the case of Man it is just the opposite.More the powerful he gets, hungrier he gets for more power. As history proves, to attain that, he has been much,much more  cruel, vicious and revengeful than any other animal can ever be.



 Animals do attack and kill each other when they want to mate and grab power from other males
.Carnivores hate each other and whenever there is oppurtunity they kill other carnivores to eliminate competetion .Male chimpanzee sometimes steal baby chimpanzees from their mothers and eat them

sorry animals are not so innocent as they are portrayed


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 1, 2011)

kds1980 ji thanks for your post and one comment,


kds1980 said:


> sorry animals are not so innocent as they are portrayed


_kds1980 ji hopefully you did not read my portrayal to be innocence of the animals.__  For example if someone brings goodies from outside and makes a call to come eat, our mini-Lion makes it very clear that he comes first and comes to attack/stop others from joining the feast.  Mind you his protestation never succeeds but nevertheless his instincts are sharp as ever.__  He is born with this and it is not taught so.__  We live with him as such an understanding._

There are whole bunch of animal practices in the wild like killing the old males, eating the young, deserting the weaklings, pushing babies out of nest, fighting to death for territory, etc., that in a human context would be abhorrent.  Animals don't pretend, they do and as much as we could understand, then we will see.  For me that is their consonance and not something wrong.  It feels so because we don't or can not live or think like them.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Nov 1, 2011)

No animal has ever exterminated 6 million Jews..( Hitler). and caused untold misery to another 50 million worldwide.....or starved 25 million soviets (Stalin)..or massacred a few thousand sikhs (  just becasue a so called Big tree fell !!) ..or threw atomic bombs on cities to kill millions...etc etc.
Animals may not be "innocent" but they do it by INSTINCT...unlike Man who does it on PURPOSE..thats the big difference..
I have 9 dogs..all one family...with mummy/daddy and siblings form various generations (3)...and they know each human's schedule to the quarter hour...meaning I get up at 2.30 am.....one or two will creep up quietly around 2.15 and lick my feet gently..no barking loudly etc...and once i awaken..they wag their tails and go back to sleep....till...5.30 am when the go to wake my wife...then at 6.15 my school going kids...8.30..9.40..10.30..various children going to work...and at night they wait for the last person to come home..they know when its Rehrass time..when its time for my fav tv show...and of course their own walk times..dinner times etc..Walk is 5.30 PM..and i have yet to look at the clock and find its (early) 5.15 or 5.45 (late)...when they pick up their leashes and put them at my feet..its exactly 5.25-5.35 give or take 10 minutes.....and each one knows his her individual dish....sleep mat..etc..in fact when our friends visit and find all 9 seated in front of the TV listening to Darbar sahib Live Kirtan from PTC Amrtisar..they joke..about dogs listening to kirtan..BUT its not a JOKE...sometimes when I ma away and the TV is not ON..they will bark to show its time to watch Kirtan...my son will come down..ON the TV and go back upstairs...all the dogs seated in peace...so YES I do LOVe my dogs and I do think they are much better than humans in many ways than one...


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## Ishna (Nov 1, 2011)

Thanks for the replies.

Ambarsaria ji: are you saying that no matter how much a human interferes with an animal, they can never exist outside of consonance, or outside of hukam?

Of course, animals do what animals do even if some of it is cruel from a human perspective. It is curious when humans get all fired up because their buddy was eaten by a shark while swimming in the ocean, and then go and hunt and kill the shark in return. It makes me sick. The planet would be better off without all of us humans who just meddle meddle meddle, but then perhaps that's just OUR instinct, and if everything instinctual is in consonance, then so are we.

Harry ji: my rodents aren't very Sikh, they over-groom themselves and their mates and cause bald patches! Oh no! (sarcasm) The also don't wear turbans, shorts, karas or kirpans!


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 1, 2011)

Ishna Bhain ji couple of comments,



> Ambarsaria ji: are you saying that no matter how much a human interferes with an animal, they can never exist outside of consonance, or outside of hukam?


_It is of course, such can be trained to live out of consonance but that is in the hands of the master.  Same as humans.  I suppose bad mothers, fathers and characters exist in all species so some also live out of consonance there.  To know the exact numbers I have to be one of them!_


> my rodents aren't very Sikh, they over-groom themselves and their mates and cause bald patches! Oh no! (sarcasm) The also don't wear turbans, shorts, karas or kirpans!


_I personally did not like the title but I thought some liberties are OK as long as there is civil discourse and sometimes such actually brings out "out of the box thinking" which is refreshing.

_Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 2, 2011)

My point regarding animals is that they do not have to try hard to be enlightened, the heady heights of enlightenment we seek as humans is simply losing what makes us different to animals, yes, animals are not the innocent cuddly things we have in our homes, they are violent, predatory, but they do all these things as per consonance, in fact, they owe it to themselves to behave in such a manner, you rarely see fat animals in the wild, or animals over indulging, animals do not need to seek therapy, or have counselling, they just behave as Creator intended, 

If you read the Mool Mantra, you will see that most animals already adhere to the concepts as laid out. If a small man meets a big man, more often than not the small man will not goad the bigger man, sure he will defend himself if need be, but he will not pointlessly goad, I have lost count of the amount of times I am out walking the dogs, and a small dog will start to bark and try and goad Alfie (Flat coat), in the animal world, I guess this is saying I am smaller than you, but I am not afraid of you, animals do not smoke or pollute their body, or their environment, if the meaning of life is to be at one with the universe, animals are better at it than we are, which in my view, makes them more sikhi than me :sippingcoffeemunda:


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## kds1980 (Nov 2, 2011)

> My point regarding animals is that they do not have to try hard to be enlightened, the heady heights of enlightenment we seek as humans is simply losing what makes us different to animals, yes, animals are not the innocent cuddly things we have in our homes, they are violent, predatory, but they do all these things as per consonance, in fact, they owe it to themselves to behave in such a manner, you rarely see fat animals in the wild, or animals over indulging, animals do not need to seek therapy, or have counselling, they just behave as Creator intended,



Animals behave in manner in the type of environment they are living.You can never see a fat animal because in most of cases that animal will either killed by predators or die whenever he fights with other male.Those who are studying animals from years do accept that behaviour of animals do change with time or with the environmental conditions they get.There are many cases where the change in behaviour is temporary or permanent 

The same argument is applicable on Humans too.Majority of us behave in the same way as the environment we got while growing up.A boy born in among Talibans in Afghanistan ,who never had access to TV internet or anything will end up becoming suicide bomber because this is all the education he gets .that was his environment while growing up


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 2, 2011)

Shakespeare in Hamlet said:
			
		

> What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
> infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
> admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
> a god! the beauty of the world, the *paragon of animals*—and yet,
> to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—


 
Man is the paragon of animals because an animal may sacrifice itself for it's own,but a man can sacrifice himself for the principle of others.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 2, 2011)

Kdsji, 

You are confirming my point, consonance takes care of all the fat, useless animals, but it does not take care of the all the fat, useless humans, we are powerful enough to outstay our welcome even when we have become a drain on creation not a contribution, unfortunately, the essence of fat, useless humans drags  creation down, so a price is paid for this. 

I found your last line quite broad, "_A boy born in among Talibans in Afghanistan ,who never had access to TV internet or anything will end up becoming suicide bomber because this is all the education he gets .that was his environment while growing up_"

I am sure this applies only a to a minority, Kdsji, in fact, in such an environment, I would think many more would end up far more enlightened than if they had access to TV and internet, why? because they would have to think for themselves, and survive in the environment they were in


Amanji I do promise to get the hang of this quote thing, I will read your instructions again later today


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## kds1980 (Nov 2, 2011)

> Kdsji,
> 
> You are confirming my point, consonance takes care of all the fat, useless animals, but it does not take care of the all the fat, useless humans, we are powerful enough to outstay our welcome even when we have become a drain on creation not a contribution, unfortunately, the essence of fat, useless humans drags creation down, so a price is paid for this.



I don't understand your point,you mean dieing because you are fat or ill is in in agreement with nature? BTW there are animals that do survive if they are useless,For example lioness give excellent treatment to their sister if she gets injured so animals which are living a social life can survive if they are fat or ill.And yes few unpreyable bulls do become fat when food is in abundance.



> I am sure this applies only a to a minority, Kdsji, in fact, in such an environment, I would think many more would end up far more enlightened than if they had access to TV and internet, why? because they would have to think for themselves, and survive in the environment they were in
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It does not apply to minority.Look at China out of 1.34 billion chinese only 10-20 million know english rest only know chinese  so all what they read in Chinese and watch Chinese which comes from propaganda from their govt.Taliban growing boy was just an example .Majority of humans on planet still behave in the type of environment they grow.majority of humans on earth still behave in that manner


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## Harry Haller (Nov 2, 2011)

Kdsji

I am absolutely saying that being fat or being ill for certain reasons is in line with nature, allow me to illustrate this with a personal reflection, I am fat, well, ok a bit chubby, not obese, and I have been ill, actually I should be dead, for years I abused my body with all sorts of bad things, bad food, bad drink, other things, to the point where my arteries clogged up, and I ended up needing lifesaving treatment. I should have died, if I was an animal, I had stepped out of order of things, and my body had reacted as it would, I did not die, (obviously), but I should have

Creation is much more than the personality of me, of my needs, my desires, Creation is an all encompassing sum, I am irrelevant, the concept makes great sense until illness happens to you or someone you love, but each time we unclog someones arteries, we are interfering with consonance, animals do not do this, they accept that actions have consequences, it makes their actions more in tune with consonance than ours, as we have 'get out of jail' cards

As for the chinese, trust me, even those that do not speak english are not as passive or uninformed as you may think, alarm bells can ring in chinese as easily as english, many will know in their hearts something is not right, all dissidents are not just english speaking


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## Randip Singh (Nov 2, 2011)

harry haller said:


> As human beings we have been blessed with reason, hooray! This enables us to cheat, lie, surrender to our ego, dominate other members of our species, dominate other species, and make changes to our environment that are not consistent with the order of things, consonance.
> 
> This comes back in my view, to being true. Animals, plants, on the whole are true to themselves, they are true to the essence of Creator that resides within them, they follow and do what they were meant to do, and in doing so confirm themselves as fully fledged members of creation.
> 
> ...



I disagree. We have reason to overcome our animal instincts.

Animals mate with whoever they want (Kaam). Animals gorge themselves and seldom share (Lobh). The other instincts like Krodh, Hankaar and Moh could probably be ovserved in animal species.

I would argue, it is our reason that prevents us from being like animals. Dwelling in the 5 thieves is basically like an animal.

When you don't dwell in them, you become human.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 2, 2011)

Randipji

I agree that Reason should have improved on what animals have achieved in the way of consonance, however it has not, it has made things worse, where reason should have made us realise what we are doing to our planet and our bodies, instead reason and intelligence just allows us to cheat the system. 

your two points

Animals mate with whoever-I could say this is ensuring the species continues, animals do not live as humans do, also, I am pretty sure there are only a few species that procreate for fun or pleasure

Animals gorge themselves-again this is survival, we live surrounded by fridges full of food, animals have a survival instinct, I am pretty sure they do not gorge beyond what they need, or indeed there would be more fat animals.

I argue that our reason is a two sided sword, it can be used to raise ourselves above animals in the spirit of truth, honesty and sharing, or it can be used to cheat the system, allowing us to act in any way we want, and the use our wisdom to change the effects of consonance. 

Look at all the huge amount of money spent on cosmetic surgery, heart bypasses for unhealthy people, diabetic treatment for people who ate too much chocolate, in fact any surgery for ailments that have been caused by lifestyle, that is our way of cheating, of living against consonance and having the resources to change fate, good reason would be to use all these resources for a cure against say cancer, or feed the hungry, or ensure everyone on this planet has the tools and resources to fulfill his or her potential, most animals have this luxury, a lot of humans do not, and the ones that do, fritter it away on the thieves


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## SIKS SINGH (Nov 2, 2011)

a animal/gods gift to humanity

is not full of ego, want or desire, does not preach or proclaim falsehood, a friend for life and gives love unconditionally - I agree animals are better sikhs - HUMANS have a lot to learn before they can meet the Universal creator, who sustains and provides all life be it big or small, plant or animal - love equally and accept you are here for only a small fraction of time to play in this Circus we call our life!

May god bless you all


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## Randip Singh (Nov 2, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Randipji
> 
> I agree that Reason should have improved on what animals have achieved in the way of consonance, however it has not, it has made things worse, where reason should have made us realise what we are doing to our planet and our bodies, instead reason and intelligence just allows us to cheat the system.
> 
> ...


 

Ofcourse "Reason" is a two sided sword. Just as it can be used to justify that one should behave as a human, it can be justified to behave like an animals. We have that choice, and we as humans are the only species on this planet that has that choice.

We can kill for pleasure, for survival, for food or whatever, for resources. We have a choice. We have reason.

Animals have no choice. They kill for food. They kill for territory. Some even for pleasure (my cat a good example).

They operate on instinct and pre-programme. We have the ability to overide that instinct and that programme. That is why animals are not good Sikhs. They will never learn to be better, wheras we as humans can, will and do learn to be better.

On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states: 

_sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2._
_go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar._
_muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar._
_har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar._
_ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan._ rahaa-o. 
_jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat._
_ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat._
_mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh._
_sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh._
*lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay.
naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay.
*
_Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:_
_The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?_
_When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home._
_O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love._
_Why do you take pride in trivial matters?_ Pause 
_Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning._
_Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden._
_Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you._
_It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions._
*Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.
O Guru Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near!
*Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji 

Human life is precious. More precious than other life on this planet. Value it. Cherish it. Nuture it. It then in turn will be an asset to all other life.


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## kds1980 (Nov 2, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Kdsji
> 
> I am absolutely saying that being fat or being ill for certain reasons is in line with nature, allow me to illustrate this with a personal reflection, I am fat, well, ok a bit chubby, not obese, and I have been ill, actually I should be dead, for years I abused my body with all sorts of bad things, bad food, bad drink, other things, to the point where my arteries clogged up, and I ended up needing lifesaving treatment. I should have died, if I was an animal, I had stepped out of order of things, and my body had reacted as it would, I did not die, (obviously), but I should have
> 
> ...



Harry ji

You abused your body because you were born in developed nation and you had resources You Had treatment because you could had afford it and your country provide it.What about billions of those people which are born in third world or Africa ,they probably could have been dead if they were in your situation.So can I say all those billions of people on earth which are living in various parts of earth are more like animals or living in console with nature because neither they have neither they could afford modern medicine


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## Harry Haller (Nov 2, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> Harry ji
> 
> You abused your body because you were born in developed nation and you had resources You Had treatment because you could had afford it and your country provide it.What about billions of those people which are born in third world or Africa ,they probably could have been dead if they were in your situation.So can I say all those billions of people on earth which are living in various parts of earth are more like animals or living in console with nature because neither they have neither they could afford modern medicine



Kdsji

I think that is what I am saying, yes, we waste too much money keeping people like me alive, when we should be spending it on those that have illness thrusted on them through no fault of their own,


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## kds1980 (Nov 2, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Kdsji
> 
> I think that is what I am saying, yes, we waste too much money keeping people like me alive, when we should be spending it on those that have illness thrusted on them through no fault of their own,



Harry ji

Your logic is quite funny ,by your logic old people which are ill and of around the age of 70 should not be given treatment as almost all doctors know that because of old age they have to die


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 2, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> Harry ji
> 
> Your logic is quite funny ,by your logic old people which are ill and of around the age of 70 should not be given treatment as almost all doctors know that because of old age they have to die


kds1980 ji is it possible that the Human species has lost control of itself?  I don't know if recreational sex is all that common in other life forms.  I am not sure of asexual life growth like viruses, bacteria, etc.

In such a scenario since humans sustain the ability to keep producing a child every year for many years, do you believe all the births in say India, China and Africa are based on people planning to have kids or having sex?

I don't want to sound elitist but isn't the thought and consequences of having and raising a child come to people when they are having sex?

Any thoughts!

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Nov 2, 2011)

Animals usually have reasons for doing what they do - they just don't have to think about it.

There is a reason why big fat walrus males fight it out on the beach, not because of krodh, but because that's what walruses do, it is survival of the fittest and is how nature evolves things.

Most animals are choosey about who they mate with - they want to mate with the one who puts on the best show, the one that makes the best nest, the one that fights off all the competitors, to ensure the best genes and the survival of the species.  There are other animals (like rodents, for example) who mate with whoever whenever wherever but again, that is because it's how they survive as a species.

Other animals, like eagles and magpies, mate with one partner and stay with them.  A family of magpies (mum, dad and juvanile) visits my house every day for food.  They've been visiting for the past two years, and the mum has a wonky wing but the dad hasn't gotten rid of her in favour of another bird.  Aaawe.

Animals usually do what they do because that's what they do, without the trappings of maya in their minds.  That might be the difference - awareness of maya?  Are animals trapped in a false reality of maya, or are these dense human intellects in love with false reality the problem?


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 2, 2011)

Ishna Bahian ji thanks for the post.  I have comment on one of the paras in your post as follows,





> They've been visiting for the past two years, and the _mum has a wonky wing_ but the dad hasn't gotten rid of her in favour of another bird.  Aaawe.


_Aaawe Not!  May be the dad uses that to rule mom._:interestedmunda:



> That might be the difference - awareness of maya?  Are animals trapped in a false reality of maya, _or are these dense human intellects in love with false reality the problem_?


_I hope you are talking about the battle versus balance with the so called five thieves.  Sometimes knowing is part of the problem.  It becomes a re-enforcer one start to unknowingly starts cataloging and counting._ _Very hard to do but "Let it be" comes to mind._

Great thoughts in your post.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Nov 3, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> Harry ji
> 
> Your logic is quite funny ,by your logic old people which are ill and of around the age of 70 should not be given treatment as almost all doctors know that because of old age they have to die



Kdsji, 

What I am saying is that smokers should not get free heart treatment, drinkers should not get liver transplants, animals make the most of the resources open to them, whereas if humans have money, they can manipulate consonance to suit themselves, up to a point anyway, animals are not emotional about the circle of life, humans are, animals accept the hukam of creator, humans do not, animals are already pure, everything they do is in consonance, humans have to tame the thieves to get that purity, until we live as one society, one people and not focus on the individuals we will never know what that feels like,

These are not my heartfelt opinions, I have a wife, a stepson, parents, I love them, I would sell everything if one were to be ill, but sometimes I just look at the animal world and see a society that 'works' a lot better than ours, having said that, in sikhi, there are many who have given their lives up for the greater good


Spock Logic   The Needs of the Many      - YouTube


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## Randip Singh (Nov 3, 2011)

Ishna said:


> Animals usually have reasons for doing what they do - they just don't have to think about it.



Animals don't have a "reason", because they cannot reason. That is the point. They do things because of instinct not reason.

Sikhi tells us we humans are special because we have "reason". We can either use this reason to behave like animals, or supress animal behaviour with "reason" and act like humans.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 3, 2011)

Randip Singh said:


> Animals don't have a "reason", because they cannot reason. That is the point. They do things because of instinct not reason.
> 
> Sikhi tells us we humans are special because we have "reason". We can either use this reason to behave like animals, or supress animal behaviour with "reason" and act like humans.


Randip Singh ji thanks for your post.  I do have a question.

What makes you think ours is the way including the "reason" part as a universal trait in the universe to be exploited?

I believe you are short changing the animals a bit for their wisdom from what I have observed of the animals.  Animals do lot of reasonable acts when paid close attention to.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## kds1980 (Nov 3, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Kdsji,
> 
> What I am saying is that smokers should not get free heart treatment, drinkers should not get liver transplants, animals make the most of the resources open to them, whereas* if humans have money, they can manipulate consonance* to suit themselves, up to a point anyway, animals are not emotional about the circle of life, humans are, animals accept the hukam of creator, humans do not, animals are already pure, everything they do is in consonance, humans have to tame the thieves to get that purity, until we live as one society, one people and not focus on the individuals we will never know what that feels like,
> 
> ...



I already replied to Your point that if Humans have money they can manipulate is already explained by me majority of humans on this planet don't have money neither they have any modern medicine for them so they are living in consonance of nature as much.as far your point of denying treatment to smokers is concerned ,then there will be lots of illnesses in world where Medical help should be denied for example you used to eat lot of sugar so now die with Diabetes 

Animal society work better because most of animals don't have any emotions
or memories .
Just look at lions they capture pride then they kill the babies in few days Lioness will back in season and they mate with them  .Lionesses develop good relations with male lions then in 2 years this cycle is repeated again and again.also in animal world there is no place for weak and death is the only solution for most of problems.In humans this type of society could be created but it will considered as very inhumane evil society


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## kds1980 (Nov 3, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> kds1980 ji is it possible that the Human species has lost control of itself?  I don't know if recreational sex is all that common in other life forms.  I am not sure of asexual life growth like viruses, bacteria, etc.
> 
> In such a scenario since humans sustain the ability to keep producing a child every year for many years, do you believe all the births in say India, China and Africa are based on people planning to have kids or having sex?
> 
> ...



Well everyone knows that  all births in India or other developing countries are not planned .In India many Hindu's and muslims believe that Children are god's gift so people don't think about having or raising a child.but I don't understand what this has to do with my post?


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## spnadmin (Nov 3, 2011)

Randip Singh said:


> Animals don't have a "reason", because they cannot reason. That is the point. They do things because of instinct not reason.
> 
> Sikhi tells us we humans are special because we have "reason". We can either use this reason to behave like animals, or supress animal behaviour with "reason" and act like humans.



Not only that! They cannot do simran, read SGGS, earn an honest living, or do seva ka guru or ka sangat. So let's get back on topic.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 3, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> Well everyone knows that  all births in India or other developing countries are not planned .In India many Hindu's and muslims believe that Children are god's gift so people don't think about having or raising a child.but I don't understand what this has to do with my post?


kds1980 ji you were comparing how life and children are getting diiferent facilities, etc., in the West while so many suffer in India and like.

My comment was a possible correlation as to why.  If a country is not a capable of supporting all children born, is it not the duty of the citizens to think about refusing some gifts from God (have fewer children).  Just thinking aloud.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## kds1980 (Nov 3, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> kds1980 ji you were comparing how life and children are getting diiferent facilities, etc., in the West while so many suffer in India and like.
> 
> My comment was a possible correlation as to why.  If a country is not a capable of supporting all children born, is it not the duty of the citizens to think about refusing some gifts from God (have fewer children).  Just thinking aloud.
> 
> Sat Sri Akal.



Ambarsaria ji

The people that capabale of thinking hardly have more than 3 children.India already have birth rate of 2.6  so people are already having less children.As far planning is concerned Human being have been producing children from start of civilization without thinking about planing them so how could illiterate poor people suddenly change this thinking?


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 3, 2011)

kds1980 ji I totally agree with your post.  But the answer also lies in your post,





kds1980 said:


> Ambarsaria ji
> 
> The people that capabale of thinking hardly have more than 3 children.India already have birth rate of 2.6  so people are already having less children.As far planning is concerned Human being have been producing children from start of civilization without thinking about planing them so _how could illiterate poor people suddenly change this thinking_?


_How could unfortunate misery suddenly stop?  

_It is disgusting to see children and others not getting health care, food, nourishment, education but humanity has to address this.  Such problems of imbalance develop over decades if not centuries and will take longer to fix themselves too.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Nov 3, 2011)

Ironically enough our sick pet mouse has been losing a lot of weight and managed to fit through the bars of his cage just now.  He climbed onto the rat's cage below, who promptly grabbed him, pulled him into her cage and killed him.

Anyone wanna free rat?


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## Harry Haller (Nov 4, 2011)

sorry Ishnabhenji about your mouse, don't be too hard on her, she is only being a rat


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 4, 2011)

Ishna said:


> Ironically enough our sick pet mouse has been losing a lot of weight and managed to fit through the bars of his cage just now.  He climbed onto the rat's cage below, who promptly grabbed him, pulled him into her cage and killed him.
> 
> Anyone wanna free rat?


Ishna ji sorry about your mouse.

Are you running experiments on forced consonancemundahug?  To put such animals near each other while they share evil/not-pleasant looks day and night must be tortturous for some and cause of salivation for others.  General test should be to have a collection in cages only if such can also live happily when outside of cages.

Cats and dogs do some time,











Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Nov 5, 2011)

Forced consonance?  Isn't that an oxy{censored}?

No experiments, the mouse's house was always on top of the rat cages since he was a tiny little mouse.  He and the rats came out on the table a few times together.  He was more interested in them than they were in him.

The rat didn't eat him, she probably killed him by accident pulling him through the bars.  He just bled out in her house.

Anyway, enough off-topic chatting.


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## Randip Singh (Nov 5, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> Randip Singh ji thanks for your post.  I do have a question.
> 
> What makes you think ours is the way including the "reason" part as a universal trait in the universe to be exploited?
> 
> ...



It may well be tommorow we may encounter an advanced Alien species who operate at a far higher level than us and may see our way of thinking and reasoning as inferior. They will however, recognise that humans have an ability to reason.

Science tells us that Animals don't posses wisdom. They posses instincy. If you read Bani as wll, it places human life on a pedestal above other life.

Also, there is a big difference between a "reasonable act" and "reason". The ability to reason does not necessarily mean that you or I will do a reasonable act.

A reasonable act maybe to feed your young. Instinctively animals and humans do this. That is a lot different from the ability to "reason".


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## Harry Haller (Nov 5, 2011)

Randipji, 

I agree with your point, however, the point I am trying to make is that most humans waste this gift of reason by following sensual desires and succumbing to the flesh, rather than using it tempered by wisdom and grace.

Example: a few years ago, I came up with a fantastic plan whereby I worked out how I could have more intimacy with my wife, she looked puzzled and replied 'how much time have you spent on this fantastic plan', I replied ' weeks!', she then looked at the mounting pile of bills, and said 'nice to see you are havet the important things at the top of your list'

As humans we waste our Guru given abilities as if we were animals, not humans, we use these wonderful abilities to follow our animal instincts, not our Guru given ones, this is why we are, Well, I am, more manmukh than Gurmukh, and being Gurmukh is what truly raises us above animals,.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 5, 2011)

Ishna said:


> _Forced consonance?  Isn't that an oxy{censored}?_
> 
> No experiments, the mouse's house was always on top of the rat cages since he was a tiny little mouse.  He and the rats came out on the table a few times together.  He was more interested in them than they were in him.


Ishna ji I apologize.  My comments reflected my ignorance on rats and mice and how they interact.

Sorry about that.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Ishna (Nov 17, 2011)

And now some f*cked up mutt feral dog has killed my pet rabbit.

It's going to be one f*cked up mutt when I wait outside tonight and bash it to death with a f*cking brick.

F*ck consonance.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 17, 2011)

Hahaah!!! Ishna ji, I'll be cheering you on from the crowd. Get some popcorn and soda... :interestedmunda:

Ishna vs FERAL DOG

F***ing Woof!
Who Let the Dogs out??- Baha men Original version      - YouTube


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 18, 2011)

> feral dog has killed my pet rabbit.


 
Isi sorry to hear that, dissonance is natural and it is ok,I have a tea cup yorkie who is 2 kilo's,if any dog attacked him he would get it off me too!


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 18, 2011)

Although dissonance is natural, it cannot be countered with more dissonance.

Ishna ji, my honest advice would be to simply go deeper into your loss and consciously explore the thoughts and feelings that arise. It might seem counter-intuitive but trust me on this. Going deeper into the loss and studying yourself going through it will bring a lot more joy then getting revenge.
That's all
Cheers


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 19, 2011)

> it cannot be countered with more dissonance.


 
Udasi Musketeer ji ,my brother in arms,

I realise you have depth in your thought ,but our sister was grieving and not philosophizing,(who let the dogs out) was not so appropriate.

In any case there is consonance in the counter too, as the brick is in consonance


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 19, 2011)

Scarlet Pimpernel
In any case there is consonance in the counter too said:
			
		

> _Sinner Veer ji, yes of course.  Ishna ji  :swordfight-kudiyan: is trying to teach consonance to the ferel dog who kind of stepped way out of line.
> 
> _Just as it is in consonance to hang/life-sentence people when they attack innocent per voice of consonance of society.  Sometimes things get out of whack for a time (say World War II) but over the long term it all gets figured out.
> 
> ...


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## Harry Haller (Nov 19, 2011)

This is quite a relevent point actually, if animals are always in consonance due to a lack of reason, then an animal killing another animal is in consonance, However I am not sure about a human being killing an animal for killing another animal............

While we are on the subject of Spji, I think I liked Sinner better, and definately liked Bhagatji's old icon, this new one looks like a constipated Burt reynolds............


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 19, 2011)

My initial response to Ishna ji was probably not appropriate. :akidd:

My second response was given after some thought on her situation. Following the grief down to its core brings more joy (and insight and wisdom) than trying to squelch it. Every opportunity of grief can potentially bring you closer to the Creator. You must take the opportunity to find out. I cannot show you how it works. You must do it for yourself. Explore the feelings that arise and give them your complete attention.

Ishna ji if you do decide to kill the animal then consciously study the emotions and feelings that arise before and after you have done so. Either way your brother is cheering you on.


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 19, 2011)

Bhagat Singh ji I just post one thought below,


> Ishna ji if you do decide to kill the animal then consciously study the emotions and feelings that arise before and after you have done so. Either way your brother is cheering you on.


Say the culprit ferel dog has been run over by a truck by now. Now if we kill the first ferel dog that shows up, would it be consonance? In human terms it is the wrong person executed for someone else's crime. 

It is very tough to do, but as they say, "root cause analysis" usually turns out things that one never suspects some time.

I totally feel for Ishna ji and it can be tough due to our attachment limitations. Now Ishna ji is going through much worse.

Example, I picked up a little tooth that came out of our dog sometimes. My heart sank if it meant much serious issues as well as the guy is now eight years old. The little rascal shows those puppy eyes and gets rice, biryani, paratha, sevian, goat meat, salmon, cookies, carrots and to top it off diet Dog Food. 

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Nov 20, 2011)

> While we are on the subject of Spji, I think I liked Sinner better, and definately liked Bhagatji's old icon


 
Veer Ji I'm still sinner, I just started being illusive and the name stuck ,Bhagat Singh is still Bhagat Singh but he joined the Musketeers as they are soldiers and ofcourse he must be a saint soldier.


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