# Punjab Now A Land Of Bihari 'sardars'



## kds1980 (Dec 1, 2007)

Punjab now a land of Bihari 'sardars'-India-The Times of India
_______

LUDHIANA: The tenth and final Sikh teacher, Guru Gobind Singh, who was born in Bihar's capital Patna nearly 300 years ago, would have approved of this sociologial trend in contemporary Punjab.

The old advisory to people to adapt to the culture of the places they go to, 'When in Rome, do as Romans do', has been assimilated with gusto by the migrant population of Bihar and Uttar Pradesh, in the "land of five rivers".

Indeed, with 'kara' around his wrist, long flowing beard, turban, and 'Singh' suffixed to his name, the 'bhaiyya' from the heartland has transformed into 'paaji' in Punjab.

In a study by Punjab Agricultural University's Department of Economics and Sociology — with a sample size of 240 migrants (120 local labourers and 120 farmers) — a whopping 81% of migrants reported a change in the language they speak, the food they eat and the clothes they wear. Pegged at more than 10 lakh in a city of about 50 lakh people, there is one migrant from UP or Bihar for every five Punjabi.

The study, carried out by Dr M S Sidhu, Dr A S Joshi and Inderpreet Kaur, employed something called a multi-stage sampling framework wherein samples were taken from districts, blocks and villages. It also zeroed in on local labourers and farmers for cross-references.

Interestingly, in similar studies in 1978-79 and 1983-84, 33% and 40% of migrant labourers had reported a noticeable change in their language. In the last survey, however, the change in language went up to 76%. Also, 84% of respondents reported a change of preference from the traditional favourite rice to wheat. Similarly, 88% had switched from dhoti to pyjama-kameez. Some went for the more comfortable 'lungi' even as the women folk made the sartorial switch from sari to salwar-kameez.

Like Ranjit Kumar, who calls himself Ranjit Singh these days, nearly 11% of people from Bihar and UP use Punjabi surnames. The 25-year-old, who came from Bihar to Sainian Bahurian village in Gurdaspur district to work in the farm of Mann Singh, is as much Punjabi as anybody around him.

Sukhram, too, is no exception. He came to Sunam in Sangrur from Purnea in Bihar, some 15 years ago to work for Mohinderpal Singh Dhindsa.

Now, with a beard and kara on his wrist, he is indistinguishable from the people around him in this nondescript


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## Sinister (Dec 1, 2007)

Hello

great post

Let me add:

Adaptability is not imitation. It means power of resistance and assimilation.

-Gandhi

cheers


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## kds1980 (Dec 1, 2007)

Sinister said:


> Hello
> 
> great post
> 
> ...



For intellectual its great,from the point of sikhism its great but for punjabi's its disaster.why because in democracy 1 person = 1 vote and in india the population of uttar pradeshi's and bihar's is increasing very rapidly and these states are backward so these people are migrating to other parts of india and thus creating a votebank for their politicians as a result the original communities will loose their majority status.

Net result voilence against these people are increasing all over india.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Dec 4, 2007)

how different is above post from a nazi rhetoric?


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## kds1980 (Dec 4, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> how different is above post from a nazi rhetoric?




 bal thackeray,raj thackeray will give you better answer


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## Archived_Member_19 (Dec 4, 2007)

so Hitler giving example of Mussolini or Franco as excuse is a great idea in your opinion?


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## Sinister (Dec 4, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> how different is above post from a nazi rhetoric?


 

there is little difference, same tactics, same flow, same hate


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## kds1980 (Dec 4, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> so Hitler giving example of Mussolini or Franco as excuse is a great idea in your opinion?



If i am not wrong here i am the hitler bal thackeray is mussolini,raj is franco  :}{}{}::}{}{}::}{}{}:


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## kds1980 (Dec 4, 2007)

Sinister said:


> there is little difference, same tactics, same flow, same hate



You people want to run from reality then i can't do anything


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## Archived_Member_19 (Dec 4, 2007)

migration is a hard truth.

people have to accept it
i never said "you" are hitler..i was merely giving an analogy


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## kds1980 (Dec 4, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> migration is a hard truth.
> 
> people have to accept it
> i never said "you" are hitler..i was merely giving an analogy



Agreed but conflict between originals and migrants is also hard truth.No community want's to loose its domination.


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## Randip Singh (Dec 4, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Punjab now a land of Bihari 'sardars'-India-The Times of India
> _______
> 
> LUDHIANA: The tenth and final Sikh teacher, Guru Gobind Singh, who was born in Bihar's capital Patna nearly 300 years ago, would have approved of this sociologial trend in contemporary Punjab.
> ...


 
The reasons why Punjabi's are so dynamic is because they are a mixture of many difefrent people. This is just a continuation of that. Look at the original Panj Pyarey......how many were actually from Punjab and you will have your answer.

These Bihari guys will become more and more punjabified over time.........the one's I meet absolutely low the culture and food...........tehy should be welcomed as they are hardworking and can only make Punjab more dynamic. The plus side too is many more Sikh converts!


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## kds1980 (Dec 4, 2007)

randip singh said:


> The reasons why Punjabi's are so dynamic is because they are a mixture of many difefrent people. This is just a continuation of that. Look at the original Panj Pyarey......how many were actually from Punjab and you will have your answer.
> 
> These Bihari guys will become more and more punjabified over time.........the one's I meet absolutely low the culture and food...........tehy should be welcomed as they are hardworking and can only make Punjab more dynamic. The plus side too is many more Sikh converts!



I already said that from the point of view sikhism its very good but do you think that jatts
and other ethinic communities that are ruling punjab want's to loose their domination over punjab.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Dec 4, 2007)

i think jatts are dependent on migrant labor more than anyone else


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## Archived_Member1 (Dec 4, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> I already said that from the point of view sikhism its very good but do you think that jatts
> and other ethinic communities that are ruling punjab want's to loose their domination over punjab.


 

jatts are the very people who are responsible for the mass migration of farm workers into punjab.  if they would work their own land rather than hiring landless biharis to do it for them, you would not have so many immigrants in the first place.

just my outsiders opinion.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Dec 4, 2007)

and who thinks that Jatts are native to punjab...aparently they too migrated from somewhere...and so did someone else...

whole world is a melting pot..

the earlier timelines of 5 generations rule of migrant assimilation is now just one or two..

and with a lot of people hopping countries every year...where do they belong?????


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## amar7979 (Dec 5, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> if they would work their own land rather than hiring landless biharis to do it for them, you would not have so many immigrants in the first place.


 
I agree.... bitter truth !!


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## kds1980 (Dec 5, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> and who thinks that Jatts are native to punjab...aparently they too migrated from somewhere...and so did someone else...
> 
> whole world is a melting pot..
> 
> ...



Despite similarity in everything jatts,khatri,ramgarhia ramdasia have differences. punjabi's still don't accept intercaste marriages.If you beleive that punjabi's will  accept gladly bihari's then i too beleive that one day sun will rise from west.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Dec 5, 2007)

does marriages only means acceptance?

there are stages of migrant assimilation -

recognition - people start recognizing the presence of te migrant community in their day to day life and social fabric. It may be positive or negative. Generally lasts less than a generation period(20-30 years)

Cautious acceptance - Historically this has been the 2nd/3rd generation, but with the fluid movement of people around the world...this stage is shrinking fast.

Acceptance - The migrant is considered one of their own, but they may still retain an invisible wall...this is hardest stage to break. It requires effort from both sides.


assimilation - this takes quite sometime...

now coming back to intercaste marriages and acceptance.... i think this is the invisible wall....but this doesnot mean that all the castes donot get accepted as punjabis.


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## kds1980 (Dec 6, 2007)

amarsanghera said:


> does marriages only means acceptance?
> 
> there are stages of migrant assimilation -
> 
> ...



You are right marriage is not the only means of acceptance.But fear of losing domination over land is much more than accepting intercaste marriage.O.K. tell is it possible for non jatt punjabi's to rule punjab.On another site 1 jatt sikh told me that to be a politician in jatt majority area you have to be jatt in punjab.And this is not the case of with jatts only
do you think that if bihari's start migrating to tamil nadu in large numbers,then karunanidhi and his bunch of dmk will accept their presence.

If you beleive that non acceptance of migrants is asociated with nazism then each and every regional politician ofworld is nazi.


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## Sinister (Dec 6, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> jatts are the very people who are responsible for the mass migration of farm workers into punjab. if they would work their own land rather than hiring landless biharis to do it for them, you would not have so many immigrants in the first place.
> 
> just my outsiders opinion.


 
Kelly…In my opinion as an outsider…we should keep our arguments less conclusive and assertive.

Its easy to pick on the farming communities…but what about when you go to the supermarket and pick up an apple or an orange that was most likely picked and packaged by a foreign laborer? 
You the consumer is to blame not the farmer who is simply doing cost cutting so that he may stay alive in an extremely cutthroat business. The farmer is participating in the natural process of division of labour.
Farmers that do not use seasonal labour are non-competitive thanks to all of YOU and me… the consumers! 
And anybody who has actually seen the workings of a farm will know that it is impossible for a farmer with 30 odd acres to afford and maintain the machinery that a 1000 acre farm has, and its impossible for that 30 acre farmer to farm and perform a harvest by himself.
So he is dependant on seasonal laborers for help.
The only thing that stops migrants, in a situation where there are no national borders, is economic downturn. Migrants will always flock to resource rich environments.

The labour shortage is generated by this continuous obsession with increasing productivity, growth and profit. When the economic growth outstrips the indigenous growth of a region the capitalist system still wishes to expand and not stagnate its growth because of a mere barrier in lack of labour availability. The price of labour increases and this acts as a magnet for migrants.

*So if anything we should lay the responsibility of the situation strictly on the economic capitalist culture, which has a natural drive towards diffusion of people across ethnic and religious backgrounds in resource rich environments.*

The farmers are not responsible for the migration of seasonal laborers … capitalism is.
And the sooner we stop pointing fingers we can understand and learn to accept these inevitable trends.

Cheers.


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## Archived_Member1 (Dec 6, 2007)

Sinister said:


> Kelly…In my opinion as an outsider…we should keep our arguments less conclusive and assertive.
> 
> Its easy to pick on the farming communities…but what about when you go to the supermarket and pick up an apple or an orange that was most likely picked and packaged by a foreign laborer?
> You the consumer is to blame not the farmer who is simply doing cost cutting so that he may stay alive in an extremely cutthroat business. The farmer is participating in the natural process of division of labour.
> ...


 
woah, way to totally misinterperate my post!  i wasn't "blaming" anyone for anything, dear. personally, i think immigrant labor is GOOD for the economy, ok? 

thanks!


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## Sinister (Dec 6, 2007)

Why hello again,



kelly_kaur said:


> i wasn't "blaming" anyone for anything, dear.
> thanks!


 
Well i must deluded? Im pretty sure i saw some false assertions...let me refresh your memories.




kelly_kaur said:


> jatts are the very people who are *responsible* for the mass migration of farm workers into punjab. if they would work their own land rather than hiring landless biharis to do it for them, you would not have so many immigrants in the first place.


 
very= denoting exclusivity
responsible= denoting blame

i dont care if your anti/pro immigration... that wasnt the purpose of my post.




kelly_kaur said:


> personally, i think immigrant labor is GOOD for the economy, ok?
> 
> thanks!


 
my aren't we testy today?

cheers.


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## Archived_Member1 (Dec 6, 2007)

take the time to read the post i was responding to, throw in the smiley at the end, and attempt your logic again.

sorry if i was "testy", i don't always respond well to rude accusations.  i am working on that.


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## Randip Singh (Dec 7, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> I already said that from the point of view sikhism its very good but do you think that jatts
> and other ethinic communities that are ruling punjab want's to loose their domination over punjab.


 
Jatts will never ever admit it but they too were at the level of the Bihari workers at one time. Everyone starts somewhere and works their way up. History is a testiment to that. Other groups like Labana, Tarkhan, Kamboj, Khatri were all in the same boat.

I know of Jatt guys that work for these so called "Bhaiyas" now.

This is the way society works. Nothing remains the same.


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## Randip Singh (Dec 7, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Despite similarity in everything jatts,khatri,ramgarhia ramdasia have differences. punjabi's still don't accept intercaste marriages.If you beleive that punjabi's will accept gladly bihari's then i too beleive that one day sun will rise from west.


 
HI KDS times change.

My own family history is that allegedly of Rajpoots from jaiselmer yet we have assimilated other tribe, Tarkhans, Jatts, Khatri etc. Today we have Jatt, Tarkhan, Khatri....and even cheer by marriage relatives. My ancestors would probably be crying all over their janeo's 

Times change. The ruler becomes the worker and the worker the ruler and then times change again.


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## dalsingh (Dec 7, 2007)

Sinister said:


> Kelly…In my opinion as an outsider…we should keep our arguments less conclusive and assertive.
> 
> Its easy to pick on the farming communities…but what about when you go to the supermarket and pick up an apple or an orange that was most likely picked and packaged by a foreign laborer?
> You the consumer is to blame not the farmer who is simply doing cost cutting so that he may stay alive in an extremely cutthroat business. The farmer is participating in the natural process of division of labour.
> ...


This is serious bull. Don't blame capitalism. Jatt society has had a long standing love of wealth and gain long before the term capitalism was ever coined!

Farmers could always choose to be subsistent farmers and live healthy lives if they wanted. Plenty do in other places. But NO, Punjabi society places an unhealthy importance on wealth and status. Jatts are possibly one of worse at following this mentality. 

Stop defending the undefendable. Even my own Jatt family friends openly bemoan the fact that the youth in Punjab have become out of shape through laziness. Given that SO MANY Sikhs migrate outwards for financial purposes, I don't think we are in any position to complain about Biharis doing the same.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 7, 2007)

why not convert them to Sikhi thru love and tolerance....that will make sikh population increase fast..migration will not go away...just as sikh youths will not stop going to Canada/usa/uk thru illegal means even ( paying huge sums to unscrupulous agnets and human traffickers)..these people will keep on coming to the land of opportunity - Punjab..our best bet is to assimilate them and increas our numbers

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## kds1980 (Dec 7, 2007)

randip singh said:


> Jatts will never ever admit it but they too were at the level of the Bihari workers at one time. Everyone starts somewhere and works their way up. History is a testiment to that. Other groups like Labana, Tarkhan, Kamboj, Khatri were all in the same boat.
> 
> I know of Jatt guys that work for these so called "Bhaiyas" now.
> 
> This is the way society works. Nothing remains the same.



Majority of communities forgot their history.Personaly i found it hilarious when indian indian clan's boast about their acheivements.Reality is all indian clans were great losers first they were unable to defend themselves against muslims and then britishers

also we all know about islamic brotherhood but still that brotherhood was not enough to unite pakistan and bangladesh.It was too difficuilt for 6 footer punjabi's to salute
5 footer bengali.Do you really think that punjabi sikhs will accept bihari's


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## kds1980 (Dec 7, 2007)

randip singh said:


> HI KDS times change.
> 
> My own family history is that allegedly of Rajpoots from jaiselmer yet we have assimilated other tribe, Tarkhans, Jatts, Khatri etc. Today we have Jatt, Tarkhan, Khatri....and even cheer by marriage relatives. My ancestors would probably be crying all over their janeo's
> 
> Times change. The ruler becomes the worker and the worker the ruler and then times change again.



Its good that your family is mixed but news of conflict between upper and lower caste sikhs from punjabi is becoming more frequent


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## dalsingh (Dec 7, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Majority of communities forgot their history.Personaly i found it hilarious when indian indian clan's boast about their acheivements.Reality is all indian clans were great losers first they were unable to defend themselves against muslims and then britishers
> 
> also we all know about islamic brotherhood but still that brotherhood was not enough to unite pakistan and bangladesh.It was too difficuilt for 6 footer punjabi's to salute
> 5 footer bengali.Do you really think that punjabi sikhs will accept bihari's



Yes. I believe because they may well be forced to intermarry due to female foeticide. Plus ask your grandparents, intercaste marriages happened between "upper" and "lower" castes before. Poor Jatts used to take women from "churha" "chamar" "caste" because no one would marry them.  My mum told me in our pind a large percentage of Jatts did this. So it wouldn't be anything new.


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## Sinister (Dec 7, 2007)

dalsingh said:


> This is serious bull.


 
Then please enlighten me with your profound knowledge dalsingh.
How do you explain the recent migration of seasonal workers into Punjab?
Or even the flocking of Punjabi’s overseas? (if not through an economic model)





dalsingh said:


> Don't blame capitalism. Jatt society has had a long standing love of wealth and gain long before the term capitalism was ever coined!


 

“The long standing love of wealth”…is it not synonymous with capitalism (the long standing love of capital gain?). there are two ways of saying tomato.

Well considering you think everything I wrote is “bull” you would not agree to: 
*economic capitalist culture, which has a natural drive towards diffusion of people across ethnic and religious backgrounds in resource rich environments.*

?????? is this theory “bull”??????





dalsingh said:


> Farmers could always choose to be subsistent farmers and live healthy lives if they wanted. Plenty do in other places. But NO, Punjabi society places an unhealthy importance on wealth and status.


 

Subsistent farming? LOL
Yes the jatts should return to the pre-industrial form of agriculture. I love the practicality of your ideas. You know what they should go back to subsistent farming…so that the rest of India can starve!

And I bet you haven’t a clue about farming and the agricultural industry…because that’s the only way one would suggest such erroneous solutions. 
Hint: I own a farm





dalsingh said:


> Jatts are possibly one of worse at following this mentality.





I wouldn’t make that assertion because I’ve seen some pretty greedy people in my lifetime and but I’ve never pointed a finger at an entire group…that’s bigotry.



dalsingh said:


> Stop defending the undefendable.




make me.

And im not trying to defend im trying to understand…which is something we should all do more often before we go off making ignorant assertions about the laziness of an entire ethnic group.




dalsingh said:


> Even my own Jatt family friends openly bemoan the fact that the youth in Punjab have become out of shape through laziness. Given that SO MANY Sikhs migrate outwards for financial purposes, I don't think we are in any position to complain about Biharis doing the same.





Laziness? Its called the division of labor. 

The Farmer is the one with the education in botany and economics.

He knows what variety of seed to use for a particular environment
The fertilizers
The methods
The plant viruses
The pests
*But most importantly he is the owner of the means of production (why should he work?)*
*….let me water it down for you…does the management of a company come down to work on the manufacturing floor?*

*Its capitalism that is making us a global species and this point is not “bull” but fact. Punjab is just another standard textbook scenario…whether you accept it or not is something I’m not even remotely interested in.*
*If you can refute what I am saying then you’ve got my undivided attention.*


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## S|kH (Dec 7, 2007)

dalsingh said:


> This is serious bull. Don't blame capitalism. Jatt society has had a long standing love of wealth and gain long before the term capitalism was ever coined!
> 
> Farmers could always choose to be subsistent farmers and live healthy lives if they wanted. Plenty do in other places. But NO, Punjabi society places an unhealthy importance on wealth and status. Jatts are possibly one of worse at following this mentality.
> 
> Stop defending the undefendable. Even my own Jatt family friends openly bemoan the fact that the youth in Punjab have become out of shape through laziness. Given that SO MANY Sikhs migrate outwards for financial purposes, I don't think we are in any position to complain about Biharis doing the same.



lol, "love of wealth and gain" = Capitalism. 

I also love how you act like only the farmers or "jatts" have fallen victim to capitalism, and all other races/cultures/castes/regions have not? The entire world has or will be.

Most of the issue I see here is that you guys act like Sikhs are the only community going thru a particular crisis. This happens throughout the world and throughout history, we're no different. 

Let them come. Let them work. The quality of one human life is the same regardless if the blood inside is Jatt, Rajput, Khalsa or Bihari. 

Sikhs lose power and jobs? Good, that's the way a democracy should work.

Sinister, Your post is really the only one worth reading in this thread. Except, I suggest you realize the age / knowledge of your audience before claiming an economic model has most of the answers. Human migration is best defined through an economic model, but I'm sure most of this forum tends to think God drives man.


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## dalsingh (Dec 7, 2007)

Sinister said:


> How do you explain the recent migration of seasonal workers into Punjab?
> Or even the flocking of Punjabi’s overseas? (if not through an economic model)




I'll tell you straight up. I had a close family friend (Jatt landlord with financially supportive relatives in the UK and Canada) who visited me a year ago and he was bewailing the fact that he COULDN'T find seasonal workers to harvest his land. The reason, he continued, was that these workers were now going to the towns to work in factories or other industries and were getting better paid jobs and better security through long term job prospects there. 

Economic migration is nothing new or "recent" to Punjab. My own family owned timber saw mills and I remember bhaiyas working there about 25 years ago. These people  would work and then return to their families. So how is this anything new? They were probably treated better at our place then by your average arrogant peasant.  

I would explain Punjabis overseas as a phenomena mainly based on financial desires and also what seems like an inherent trait of outward exploration in the community. Exactly what made Sikhs (especially Jatts) prance around the globe as soldiers under the British i.e. desire for money + adventure. 




Sinister said:


> “The long standing love of wealth”…is it not synonymous with capitalism (the long standing love of capital gain?). there are two ways of saying tomato.
> 
> Well considering you think everything I wrote is “bull” you would not agree to:
> *economic capitalist culture, which has a natural drive towards diffusion of people across ethnic and religious backgrounds in resource rich environments.* ?????? is this theory “bull”??????




Like people weren't migrating for economic gain before the Industrial revolution!! Indeed the oft quoted history of Jatts (Sakas) claims they themselves came from elsewhere and settled in Punjab to exploit the fertile land i.e. better opportunity. Moors pushed into Europe and formed kingdoms up Spain and Italy. Europeans did it in America/Canada/Austrialia/New Zealand amongst places. So no I disagree, it isn't just capitalism that makes people congregate in resource/opportunity rich environments but their own ambitions/aspirations. 







Sinister said:


> Subsistent farming? LOL
> Yes the jatts should return to the pre-industrial form of agriculture. I love the practicality of your ideas. You know what they should go back to subsistent farming…so that the rest of India can starve!




Yes, sure. Jatts farm for the love of India and its potentially starving population - who are you kidding dude!!!! A strong feature of Jatt culture is economic dominance of other clans in Punjab. Have you seen how substandard MOST Jatts treat so called "lower castes"   Pull the other one dude...it has bells on it. 




Sinister said:


> And I bet you haven’t a clue about farming and the agricultural industry…because that’s the only way one would suggest such erroneous solutions.
> Hint: I own a farm




So does my family and even they have become lazy from renting land out back home. And what? 









Sinister said:


> I wouldn’t make that assertion because I’ve seen some pretty greedy people in my lifetime and but I’ve never pointed a finger at an entire group…that’s bigotry. And im not trying to defend im trying to understand…which is something we should all do more often before we go off making ignorant assertions about the laziness of an entire ethnic group.




Dude if you don't wake up to the difficult too swallow fact that Jatts are majorly losing the plot the problems will only increase.





Sinister said:


> Laziness? Its called the division of labor.
> 
> The Farmer is the one with the education in botany and economics.
> 
> ...


Spoken like a true Jatt .... 

"Why should I work......"

 "Let me use these lesser breeds to do my labour" 

"Bullcrap Sardari"


What do you want to do....use bhaiyas and throw them out of Punjab when your finished with them.......really compassionate


Plus are you unaware of the growing problem of land poisoning through excessive use of pesticides....pindus can't read/follow the instructions and are ruining the dharti as a result it seems. Real expertise.

The day I see Jatts give a monkeys about other people besides their own and stop trying to corrupt/dominate every damn thing in Punjab/Sikhism I may give a hoot. 

Forget now. Use your brain and try and think what problems Jatts will have if global warming gets worse and large sections of land may become unworkable.


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## Sinister (Dec 7, 2007)

*Its capitalism that is making us a global species and this point is not “bull” but fact. Punjab is just another standard textbook scenario…whether you accept it or not is something I’m not even remotely interested in.
If you can refute what I am saying then you’ve got my undivided attention.*


way to go! .... you completely missed my points

which was expected and well anticipated ....

 In my book the "id" always intervenes when the "ego" is broken


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## dalsingh (Dec 7, 2007)

Sinister said:


> *Its capitalism that is making us a global species and this point is not “bull” but fact. Punjab is just another standard textbook scenario…whether you accept it or not is something I’m not even remotely interested in.
> If you can refute what I am saying then you’ve got my undivided attention.*
> 
> 
> ...



You carry on basing your opinions on Freudian principles then. Despite most of his theories being discredited.  

Face facts. No group should be exploiting others...that much of Sikhi even I've figured out. We have CHOICES......if people are taking the path of greed then ultimately it is a decision they have made themselves. Blaming corruption of character on ideologies like capitalism without reference to internal motivation is about as lame as it gets.


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## Sinister (Dec 7, 2007)

dalsingh said:


> You carry on basing your opinions on Freudian principles then. Despite most of his theories being discredited.
> 
> Face facts. No group should be exploiting others...that much of Sikhi even I've figured out. We have CHOICES......if people are taking the path of greed then ultimately it is a decision they have made themselves. Blaming corruption of character on ideologies like capitalism without reference to internal motivation is about as lame as it gets.


 

this theory of symbolic interactionism coming from a bigot!
now ive seen everything

just a few posts ago you were generalizing jatts into the greediest of the greedy's 

now you turned tone and said "to each his own"

well at least i leave with the satisfaction of knowing that bigotry can be defeated.
and your posts are living proof


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## Sinister (Dec 7, 2007)

to entail that the jatt is not working is incorrect

he or she is the management that organizes the laborers

the same way it is anywhere
the laborers are not serfs they are free men who exchange labour on the market as a commodity


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## dalsingh (Dec 7, 2007)

Sinister said:


> this theory of symbolic interactionism coming from a bigot!
> now ive seen everything
> 
> just a few posts ago you were generalizing jatts into the greediest of the greedy's
> ...



You want to tackle bigotry. Try looking a bit closer to home to the bigotry inherent within your own culture. One that brings back Bahman casteism to Punjab with a vengeance. What other force promotes and upholds a hierarchical caste society so strongly in Punjab other than Jattism? 

I think your misreading the post. Where have I said "each to his own"?

You are the one suggesting we are all helpless in the face of capitalism and using that as some excuse/justification for greedy behaviour. I'm suggesting that we have choices on individual levels on whether to buy into that and are not entirely helpless. Has Sikhism becomes so powerless that it offers no protection against capitalism?

I suggest you revisit the old sakhi about Guru Nanak and Malik Bhago for some guidance. What do you think it is trying to get at?


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## Randip Singh (Dec 7, 2007)

*Guys Guys.

Any more Jatt bashing and Iwill recommend this thread is locked.

Can a mod please monitor as I maybe considered favouring Jatts.*


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## Sinister (Dec 7, 2007)

dalsingh said:


> I think your misreading the post. Where have I said "each to his own"??


 
right here my silly freind:



dalsingh said:


> Blaming corruption of character on ideologies like capitalism without reference to internal motivation is about as lame as it gets.


 
*and what about when you label an entire ethnic group...is it not prejudice, bigotry? is it not lame? are you not in your own words referencing a group without taking into consideration internal motivations?*

*you wish to irradicate caste differences but ironically you are the most conscious of caste in these discussions. *



dalsingh said:


> Jatt society has had a long standing love of wealth and gain long before the term capitalism was ever coined!


 



dalsingh said:


> A strong feature of Jatt culture is economic dominance of other clans in Punjab.


 


dalsingh said:


> Jatt society has had a long standing love of wealth and gain long before the term capitalism was ever coined!


 
and my favourite:
_


dalsingh said:



			Jatts are possibly one of worse at following this mentality.
		
Click to expand...

_ 
isnt that "lame" (to use your own words)?
its not going to solve anything.



dalsingh said:


> You are the one suggesting we are all helpless in the face of capitalism and using that as some excuse/justification for greedy behaviour.


 
not as an excuse but as a cause (theres the rub). You are unfortunately standing on a mountaintop where the air is thin...i just wish to bring you down to the valley bellow. Sit on the fence for once and look at something with pure objectivity.



dalsingh said:


> I'm suggesting that we have choices on individual levels on whether to buy into that and are not entirely helpless. Has Sikhism becomes so powerless that it offers no protection against capitalism?


 
to answer your question...yes
im not a capitilistic fanboy....but i recognize it as an entity that is omnipotent to both you and I...probably even god.




dalsingh said:


> I suggest you revisit the old sakhi about Guru Nanak and Malik Bhago for some guidance. What do you think it is trying to get at?


 
its ok ill pass on childrens stories :rofl!!:


i recommend you reread my posts if nothings clicked so far.


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## dalsingh (Dec 7, 2007)

Biharis or anyone else...do yourself a big favour and learn a skilled trade. It has much better prospects....lol

Kirat dee kamai


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## Sinister (Dec 7, 2007)

dalsingh said:


> Biharis or anyone else...do yourself a big favour and learn a skilled trade. It has much better prospects....lol
> 
> Kirat dee kamai


 
to each his own 

remember?

not everyone can be a laborer
and Nanak's dream although fruitful is Utopian

or your just interpreting it wrong


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## dalsingh (Dec 7, 2007)

Sinister said:


> to each his own
> 
> remember?



No I don't. You totally misunderstood what I was saying.


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## dalsingh (Dec 7, 2007)

Sinister said:


> to each his own
> 
> remember?
> 
> ...



Sikhism is about freedom, not replacing one set of overlords with another....lol

I'd rather be inspired by Guru Nanak's "utopian" vision than any other.


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## Sinister (Dec 7, 2007)

dalsingh said:


> Sikhism is about freedom, not replacing one set of overlords with another....lol
> 
> I'd rather be inspired by Guru Nanak's "utopian" vision than any other.


 
to each his own


just stop with the bigotry though... is all i ask of you today
babysteps in the right direction


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## dalsingh (Dec 7, 2007)

Sinister said:


> to each his own
> 
> 
> just stop with the bigotry though... is all i ask of you today
> babysteps in the right direction



Nope. Change your own society before you ask for something you can't offer yourself....bwaaahhh <jumps around in a long pink skirt in celebration>


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## Sinister (Dec 7, 2007)

dalsingh said:


> Nope. Change your own society before you ask for something you can't offer yourself....bwaaahhh <jumps around in a long pink skirt in celebration>


 
The truth revealed
surely you are not following sikhi then

so you preach what you dont follow

now your a bigot and a hypocrit which is not much of a surprise


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## dalsingh (Dec 7, 2007)

Sinister said:


> The truth revealed
> surely you are not following sikhi then
> 
> so you preach what you dont follow
> ...



Yeh, like your pushing for something really positive yourself.

Sweep the stick under your own bed before you complain..as the old Punjabi saying goes

I noticed that in all your posts you never once suggested that farmers need to change anything in their own society. Really forward looking bloke you are.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Dec 7, 2007)

<<do yourself a big favour and learn a skilled trade. It has much better prospects....lol

Kirat dee kamai>>

how is management not "kirat" ?

as long as it means paying just market adjusted monies for the resources or skills


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## Archived_Member_19 (Dec 7, 2007)

<<Sikhism is about freedom, not replacing one set of overlords with another....lol
>>

so i assume working in a job is like assuming an overlord?


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## Sinister (Dec 7, 2007)

Dalsingh,



dalsingh said:


> Economic migration is nothing new or "recent" to Punjab. My own family owned timber saw mills and I remember bhaiyas working there about 25 years ago. These people would work and then return to their families. So how is this anything new? They were probably treated better at our place then by your average arrogant peasant.


 




dalsingh said:


> I would explain Punjabis overseas as a phenomena mainly based on financial desires and also what seems like an inherent trait of outward exploration in the community. Exactly what made Sikhs (especially Jatts) prance around the globe as soldiers under the British i.e. desire for money + adventure.




Have some respect for veterans..my grandfather died "prancing around the globe"
and for this? ....for people like you who dont give a damn. Its called, dieing for what you beleive in is right...you wouldn't know because your a hypocrit and hypocrits cant tell the difference.




dalsingh said:


> The day I see Jatts give a monkeys about other people besides their own and stop trying to corrupt/dominate every damn thing in Punjab/Sikhism I may give a hoot.


 
*this does not constitute debate... it borders hate speech.*
in fact I will go as far as saying it is hate speech.... directed at a specific ethnicity.







*My question is:*
*Why are the moderators sitting on their hands? *


*we are all the same dalsingh, we are individuals. And those who think themselves superior...Like you or any jatt for that matter ... is nothing short of a {censored}. *


down with bigotry.


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## dalsingh (Dec 8, 2007)

Like I said, look closer to home for a fountain head of bigotry. I still haven't heard you say anything about reforming aspects of your own culture that promotes caste/hierarchy?


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## Archived_Member1 (Dec 8, 2007)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> why not convert them to Sikhi thru love and tolerance....that will make sikh population increase fast..migration will not go away...just as sikh youths will not stop going to Canada/usa/uk thru illegal means even ( paying huge sums to unscrupulous agnets and human traffickers)..these people will keep on coming to the land of opportunity - Punjab..our best bet is to assimilate them and increas our numbers
> 
> Gyani jarnail Singh


.
this is the only sensible post i've seen so far in this thread.  thanks for posting this idea, i tend to agree with you.


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## dalsingh (Dec 8, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> .
> this is the only sensible post i've seen so far in this thread.  thanks for posting this idea, i tend to agree with you.




If you look at what I'm talking about you will see that it is the biggest barrier to integrating people in the Punjab.


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## drkhalsa (Dec 8, 2007)

Dear Friends 

Take some care while writing posts . Some flaming posts against some particular group can make whole disscusion useless.

Their are no prizes to guess that Jatt is the dominant single community in Punjab 
they consitiute single largest group in Punjab arpound 20 % of punjab population .

As from my experience everybody in punjab who have money in thier pocket speak high about himself and his clan whether its Khatri ,Jatt,Arora   so the point is we need the thinkung pattern change to get rid from this Caste thing and everybody should be held responsible


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## Sinister (Dec 8, 2007)

drkhalsa said:


> Dear Friends
> 
> Take some care while writing posts . Some flaming posts against some particular group can make whole disscusion useless.
> 
> ...


 

thankyou Dr.Khalsa!

your words of reason resonate with melody


the blame lies everywhere on the individual level not within a group.


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## dalsingh (Dec 8, 2007)

To underplay the influence the dominant group plays in upholding, promoting and reinforcing caste within Sikhism is a cop out as far as I can see. You don't have to go far to hear about what is clearly oppression from these quarters. 

Yes, change is needed throughout Panjabi society. Shouldn't the people who adhere to the caste system the most within the Sikh community lead the way? Instead you get every excuse in the book to justify this nonsense i.e. we are an ethnic group not a caste etc.


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