# What Is A Real Sant?



## Sunjeet Singh (Jun 24, 2012)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa,
Waheguru ji kee fateh,

I'm not sure if im posting this in the right thread, since I'm new to this site, butttt......

What makes the difference between a normal person and a sant? Like, what are

 the qualities of a sant, and the things that make them stand out from normal 

people like me and you. I'm looking for some real deep answers, something 

that isn't so obvious and easy to just blurt out, because I'm looking towards 

improving myself to become a better person and a better sikh, and just 

improving as much as i can as a overall person. And hopefully anybody else 

who reads this thread and the answers will also gain something out of it too.


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## arshi (Jun 24, 2012)

Excellent question Sunjeet ji

Please refer to Ang 1357 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where Guru Ji record six qualties of an elightened person. I started translating these in my own words a while ago but have not quite completed the task. Could do so for you later if you are a little patient. I am sure other more enlightened persons would respond in due course.

ਮੰਤ੍ਰੰ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੰ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੰ ਸਰਬਤ੍ਰ ਪੂਰਨਹ॥

_raam raam naama Dha-yaana sarbatar poornah. (1357)._

Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 24, 2012)

Guru Arjun ji writes...Bhaag Hoaa GUR-SANT milayah...and this means the GURU SAHIB..  Guru ramdass Ji...(then)...and Guru Granth sahib ji today.
The SGGS has ALL the qualities of a GURMUKH, SANT, GURU, SATGURU...and NONE of the *inadequacies* of a HUMAN.
Bhai Gurdass Ji calls Guru nanak Ji..*GURMUKH*...so all these are really Higher persons than you and me...but we cna all aspire towards those lofty heights..lofty ideals...as the word *GUR-SIKH* implies...


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## japjisahib04 (Jun 24, 2012)

Yes our intermediatary is Gur Prasad Sabd Guru. Accepting anyone other than sabd guru will lead us nowhere.
Mohinder Singh Sahni


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 24, 2012)

Guru Arjun Ji Sahib clearly directs us.."*MANUKH KI SEWA BIRTHEE JAAN.*..." Nothing could be clearer or more transparent than THAT...SEWA of ONLY the SHABAD..the BANNI that is GURU is WORTHY..alll else is BIRTHEE..BEARTH..WASTE of time...


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## Astroboy (Jun 24, 2012)

When I do a search with the word 'Saint', all I get is references from SGGS of WHO ISN'T A SANT.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 24, 2012)

Har Har Sant Jana Ki Jiwan

ਸਾਰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Saarang, Fifth Mehl:

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਕੀ ਜੀਵਨਿ ॥
The Lord, Har, Har, is the life of the humble Saints.

ਬਿਖੈ ਰਸ ਭੋਗ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਵਨਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Instead of enjoying corrupt pleasures, they drink in the Ambrosial Essence of the Name of the Lord, the Ocean of Peace. ||1||Pause||

ਸੰਚਨਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਧਨੁ ਰਤਨਾ ਮਨ ਤਨ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਸੀਵਨਿ ॥
They gather up the priceless wealth of the Lord's Name, and weave it into the fabric of their mind and body.

ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗ ਰਾਂਗ ਭਏ ਮਨ ਲਾਲਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਰਸ ਖੀਵਨਿ ॥੧॥
Imbued with the Lord's Love, their minds are dyed in the deep crimson color of devotional love; they are intoxicated with the sublime essence of the Lord's Name. ||1||

ਜਿਉ ਮੀਨਾ ਜਲ ਸਿਉ ਉਰਝਾਨੋ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸੰਗਿ ਲੀਵਨਿ ॥
As the fish is immersed in water, they are absorbed in the Lord's Name.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੰਤ ਚਾਤ੍ਰਿਕ ਕੀ ਨਿਆਈ ਹਰਿ ਬੂੰਦ ਪਾਨ ਸੁਖ ਥੀਵਨਿ ॥੨॥੬੮॥੯੧॥
O Nanak, the Saints are like the rain-birds; they are comforted, drinking in the drops of the Lord's Name.


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## Luckysingh (Jun 24, 2012)

On p319, Guru Arjan Devji
ਜਿਨਾ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾਂ ਮਨਿ ਮੰਤੁ ॥ 

Jinā sās girās na visrai har nāmāŉ man manṯ. 

Those who do not forget the Lord, with each breath and morsel of food, whose minds are filled with the Mantra of the Lord's Name - 


ਧੰਨੁ ਸਿ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਪੂਰਨੁ ਸੋਈ ਸੰਤੁ ॥੧॥ 

Ḏẖan sė se▫ī nānkā pūran so▫ī sanṯ. ||1|| 

they alone are blessed; O Nanak, they are the perfect Saints. ||1|| 

Then on p 392 in another shabad or hymn

Aasaa, Fifth Mehl: 


ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨੈ ॥ 

Āṯẖ pahar nikat kar jānai. 

Twenty-four hours a day, he knows the Lord to be near at hand; 


ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਮੀਠਾ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ 

Parabẖ kā kī▫ā mīṯẖā mānai. 

he surrenders to the Sweet Will of God. 


ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੰਤਨ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥ 

Ėk nām sanṯan āḏẖār. 

The One Name is the Support of the Saints; 


ਹੋਇ ਰਹੇ ਸਭ ਕੀ ਪਗ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ 

Ho▫e rahe sabẖ kī pag cẖẖār. ||1|| 

they remain the dust of the feet of all. ||1|| 


ਸੰਤ ਰਹਤ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ॥ 

Sanṯ rahaṯ sunhu mere bẖā▫ī. 

Listen, to the way of life of the Saints, O my Siblings of Destiny; 


ਉਆ ਕੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 

U▫ā kī mahimā kathan na jā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o. 

their praises cannot be described. ||1||Pause|| 


ਵਰਤਣਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥ 

varṯaṇ jā kai keval nām. 

Their occupation is the Naam, the Name of the Lord. 


ਅਨਦ ਰੂਪ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮ ॥ 

Anaḏ rūp kīrṯan bisrām. 

The Kirtan, the Praise of the Lord, the embodiment of bliss, is their rest. 


ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਤ੍ਰੁ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨੈ ॥ 

Miṯar saṯar jā kai ek samānai. 

Friends and enemies are one and the same to them. 


ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ॥੨॥ 

Parabẖ apune bin avar na jānai. ||2|| 

They know of no other than God. ||2|| 


ਕੋਟਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਘ ਕਾਟਨਹਾਰਾ ॥ 

Kot kot agẖ kataṇhārā. 

They erase millions upon millions of sins. 


ਦੁਖ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰਨ ਜੀਅ ਕੇ ਦਾਤਾਰਾ ॥ 

Ḏukẖ ḏūr karan jī▫a ke ḏāṯārā. 

They dispel suffering; they are givers of the life of the soul. 


ਸੂਰਬੀਰ ਬਚਨ ਕੇ ਬਲੀ ॥ 

Sūrbīr bacẖan ke balī. 

They are so brave; they are men of their word. 


ਕਉਲਾ ਬਪੁਰੀ ਸੰਤੀ ਛਲੀ ॥੩॥ 

Ka▫ulā bapurī sanṯī cẖẖalī. ||3|| 

The Saints have enticed Maya herself. ||3|| 


ਤਾ ਕਾ ਸੰਗੁ ਬਾਛਹਿ ਸੁਰਦੇਵ ॥ 

Ŧā kā sang bācẖẖėh surḏev. 

Their company is cherished even by the gods and the angels. 


ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸੁ ਸਫਲ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ॥ 

Amogẖ ḏaras safal jā kī sev. 

Blessed is their Darshan, and fruitful is their service. 


ਕਰ ਜੋੜਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਰੇ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥ 

Kar joṛ Nānak kare arḏās. 

With his palms pressed together, Nanak offers his prayer: 


ਮੋਹਿ ਸੰਤਹ ਟਹਲ ਦੀਜੈ ਗੁਣਤਾਸਿ ॥੪॥੩੭॥੮੮॥ 

Mohi sanṯėh tahal ḏījai guṇṯās. ||4||37||88|| 

O Lord, Treasure of Excellence, please bless me with the service of the Saints. ||4||37||88|| 


Now the translation of 'saint' is used quite often and it does sometimes appear a little loose.
Personally, I think of such saint or sant (from what Guru Arjan ji says) as someone who is* Enlightened, Wise, Knowledgable, Lives by the word of the shabad, speaks and talks the word as well, infact all words uttered by such beings are pure gurmatt*.-If any of these qualities are NOT there, then I don't personally regard such as a sant.

This is my personal definition of a sant and I am sorry to say that what the majority of sangat call 'sants' ie. the sant ragees who go around as heads of their little groups..etc..- I simply regard as 'preachers' even though they may use the abbreviation and title of 'sant' before their name, but what they do mostly is katha and preach.
I mean one just has to look at a collection of kirtan and katha CD's and you will see SO MANY with Sant so and so, Sant.....So,so .so from SO so Village or town..
-I'm sorry, if some may be offended, but this is how I feel about using such a title or word as 'sant'.
In this day, we regard such as sant, only to learn or hear later that such sant did this and did that or took this much money..blah...blah...gossip..they are just as manmukh as the guy next door......

To use such a pure and strong gurmatt word to describe a person that considers their own preaching better than others, or someone that comes across as they are more closer to the lord than you, I don't feel it appropriate to use such description for the said person.

Like I say, this view may offend many out there, but the words above by Guru Arjun, shouldn't be taken lightly.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 24, 2012)

When even a little "water" is added to MILK..we call it Kachee Lassee.....thats whats used to wash floors as well and also to wash the cremation block after the ashes of the departed have been collected/wash his bone fragments etc- (Hindu practices )....

YET the Most Heavenly MILK..the CREAM of Human Society..known as "SAINT" ( from the qualities described in SGGS one can easily arrive at this definition)...even those with just a DASH of WHITE (0.1% Milk) are also called Sant Ji..Brahmgyani Ji..mahapurash ji..Waddeh baba Ji Sri 108 Ji, Vidya Maartand Ji etc etc etc. Yes Jios..the Modern day USAGE of the word SANT is totally OUT. Solid PROOF of this is the total LACK of "Sant Ji, Brahmgyani Ji, mahapurahs Ji Sri 108 jis etc etc DURING GURU TIMES..and even until 1925.  After 1925, the SANTS grew EXPOTENTIALLY as Mushrooms after a Rain Shower..until TODAY there are way MORE "SANTS" than SIKHS. WE have seen so much Kachee Lassi that we have forgotten what 100% MILK is !!!japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 24, 2012)

> Solid PROOF of this is the total LACK of "Sant Ji, Brahmgyani Ji, mahapurahs Ji Sri 108 jis etc etc DURING GURU TIMES..and even until 1925. After 1925, the SANTS grew EXPONENTIALLY as Mushrooms after a Rain Shower..until TODAY there are way MORE "SANTS" than SIKHS



Solid point Gyani ji!


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## Navdeep88 (Jun 24, 2012)

Sunmeet Singh Ji,

I think you're right on the Money by aspiring to " be a better person and a better sikh", that's all that Counts, I don't think God CARES that you Aspire to be Something you're Not. Just try to be Good, & God Rewards those efforts, that diligence. Perhaps not in the way we want, but there is something to be said about direct Karma in this Lifetime, just try to be a Nice Person.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 24, 2012)

Navdeep88 said:


> Sunmeet Singh Ji,
> 
> I think you're right on the Money by aspiring to " be a better person and a better sikh", that's all that Counts, I don't think God CARES that you Aspire to be Something you're Not. Just try to be Good, & God Rewards those efforts, that diligence. Perhaps not in the way we want, but there is something to be said about direct Karma in this Lifetime, just try to be a Nice Person.




Not just "nice"..try and be a GUR-MUKH...with qualities that enable you to FACE (mukh) the GURU...and not do what will cause you to lower your eyes, look down..or turn your face away form the GURU...each one of us SIKHS..is already a GUR-*SIKH*....we all just need the *GUR* part in our Daily LIVES....to become WHOLE !!


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## Sunjeet Singh (Jun 25, 2012)

Thats perfect...exactly what im looking for...thank all of you guys for your seva, but please feel free to keep throwing out ideas because any good advice will help me or anyone else reading the post


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## sid (Jun 25, 2012)

a real saint follows the path of truth and his ultimate aim is to spread permanent peace all over the world.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 25, 2012)

sid said:


> a real saint follows the path of truth and his ultimate aim is to spread permanent peace all over the world.



ALL SIKHS do THAT....ever since Guru nanak ji taught us from 1469 onwards...and Guru Gobind Singh ji gave us the Mandatory Uniform so all peoples will recognize us as what we are..*SAINT* *SOLDIERS*.


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## arshi (Jun 25, 2012)

Gyani ji

Gurfateh ji

My immediate response to Sunnit’s question was that “it was an excellent question”, not just because of the question itself but that it came from one so young. I wish I could have asked such discerning questions even when I was twice that age. 

Therefore any reply to the question must be measured and structured in a way that is commensurate with a young and an impressionable mind. I am not normally the first to respond to a thread but this young man deserves all the attention we can give.

The responses so far have been very good. I could not help but chuckle when you wrote:



> _After 1925, the SANTS grew EXPOTENTIALLY as Mushrooms after a Rain Shower..until TODAY there are way MORE "SANTS" than SIKHS._


It reminded me of a popular English saying “too many chiefs not enough Indians”. It is so true that we hear of a new _baba (sant)_ nearly every week. It is impossible to know who is genuine even at the level of a mere Gursikh (leave alone a _baba_) without the guidance of Gurbani. Maskeen ji once recorded a commentary on the shabd I pointed out in my earlier post re: the six attributes (Ang 13 57) …….*I notice a lot of unwanted characters/phonetics in that post – it was fine when I posted it ???...wonder what happened…..* I remember him saying that in his entire life he had not come across a single person who matches the six qualities mentioned in the shabd. Neither have I, for that matter, although I have briefly come across two very enlightened individuals, but what was their spiritual status only the Lord knows. I have never been close to any present day _sants or babas_. 

However, all this is not to deny the good work a few individuals are doing. It is sometimes the _sangat’s_ fault that it keeps bestowing these titles, not to mention the copycat _‘matha taikking’,_ which eventually leads to such elevated labels. I have quite a few anecdotes I can share in this respect.

Running out of time but intend to continue, hopefully, with some more points which Sunnit ji may find helpful.

Sincerely

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## Randip Singh (Jun 25, 2012)

Sunjeet Singh said:


> Waheguru ji ka khalsa,
> Waheguru ji kee fateh,
> 
> I'm not sure if im posting this in the right thread, since I'm new to this site, butttt......
> ...




Why worry my brother about who is a true Sant when by studying and understanding Bani you can be a Sant yourself?

The only problem with trying to identify a Sant nowadays is that "ittt chaakh-o thay Sant nikaal jaandhaa!"

We have Flunay wala Sant, Timkaraay wala Sant, I am just waiting for Vodafone-wala Sant!!!


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## jasbirkaleka (Jun 25, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, with all due respects,terms"SANT" and "SAINT" have very different connotations. There is no concept of a SAINT or SAINTHOOD in Indian philosophy.


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## Astroboy (Jun 25, 2012)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> ALL SIKHS do THAT....ever since Guru nanak ji taught us from 1469 onwards...and Guru Gobind Singh ji gave us the Mandatory Uniform so all peoples will recognize us as what we are..*SAINT* *SOLDIERS*.



Gyani Ji,

I find this threadvideo relevant from another way of looking - what is and is not acceptable as Sikhs to follow.
Ranjit Singh Dhandriyawala Kutta part 2 Truth oF This SaaDH      - YouTube


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 25, 2012)

jasbirkaleka said:


> Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, with all due respects,terms"SANT" and "SAINT" have very different connotations. There is no concept of a SAINT or SAINTHOOD in Indian philosophy.



Veer Ji,
I think we are all using the words interchangeably BUT only in the Sikh context. I am aware that there are various ways a "saint" is approved by the Catholic Church or maybe by some other religious authorities as well. IN that context there are NO LIVING "SAINTS"..the Church only ordains one after death and sometimes centuries after death...BUT in Sikh/Punjab context majority of *sants* are *alive*...(Using the DEAD ONES only as PROPS to make sure their own SHOPS thrive well )..and Sikhi has NO AUTHORITY equivalent to the vatican to "approve"  any sant/saint/living/or dead...every sant/saint is SELF Proclaimed/or by his CHELAS. In the same way..perhaps we cna also say that a "soldier" Sipahi are NOT exactly the same ??..because a Sipahi in the Sikh Context is not just a "soldier" for  he defends, he fights moral battles, is of exemplary high moral character, beneficient, kind,and ONLY FOLLOWS the CREATORS WILL rather than a human officers orders.... etc etc all of which a normal "soldier" may NOT always be...SYMANTICS..Languages, Vocabualry, Cultures, etc..are a MINEFIELD strewn with hidden land mines..even natural QUICKSAND...we always need to step carefully.."FOOK Maar maar ke pair dharna Painda Ji"...of necessity we have to use Square words to fit ROUND holes/Quadrant holes, triangular holes, pentagonal holes...He he


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## Archived_member15 (Jun 25, 2012)

For me one phrase: _Self-surrender. _

I think that a _Sant _is someone who has denied self and who apprehends God in all - all things, all people, all situations, all experiences. He has God ever close to his heart, in his thoughts, on his tongue, before him, behind him, all around him. He has completely surrendered himself/herself, lost himself/herself drowned the ego and lives in a state of utter self-abandonment to the Divine Will. He perceives every moment as an ambassador of the divine will. He has humility, the crown of all the virtues, to the extent that he would rather be last of all, least of all, beneath of all. His/her only aim in life is the continual knowledge and awareness of _Naam. _He makes no distinctions between people because he does not see with human eyes but rather through the _Single Eye of Equality_. God's eye and his/her eye have become one sight, one love, one knowledge and so just like the Creator he views all with perfect impartiality. He loves his friends in God and his foes for God. 
For the sant whatever God ordains is sweet. Whether joy or sadness, success or failure, he receives whatever God wills for him with joy because he is able to see God in everything that happens. 

kaurhug


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## jasbirkaleka (Jun 25, 2012)

Very well explained Gyani Ji.Thanks.


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## chazSingh (Jun 26, 2012)

as the gurbani that Lucky ji quoted:
On p319, Guru Arjan Devji
ਜਿਨਾ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾਂ ਮਨਿ ਮੰਤੁ ॥ 

Jinā sās girās na visrai har nāmāŉ man manṯ. 

Those who do not forget the Lord, with each breath and morsel of food, whose minds are filled with the Mantra of the Lord's Name - 


ਧੰਨੁ ਸਿ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਪੂਰਨੁ ਸੋਈ ਸੰਤੁ ॥੧॥ 

Ḏẖan sė se▫ī nānkā pūran so▫ī sanṯ. ||1|| 

they alone are blessed; O Nanak, they are the perfect Saints. ||1|| 


ALL OF US as described by Guru Ji are on the path to become 'SELF' realised. To return back to our TRUE SELVES, our true character, our TRUE STATE. not the state that OUR MIND has put us into.

As guru Ji states above, when we becomes Self realised, and completely pure from within (our souls are 100% pure, for our soul is made up of the same as god - it is our minds which are dirty)...we will then remember who we are and we will be the *pūran so▫ī sanṯ as gurbani describes. *

And when we do, we will be TRUE GURMUCK's, and operate completely in gods will, and we will want to 'WAKE' other souls up, so they can experience their TRUE SELF and GOD.

Even when we reach this state of being, we will be the most humble person in the universe.
and when we will then try to help others, the corrupted minds of the many will slander and rip into us.
But the GOD CONSCIOUS being never ever gives up.

If we are not to become 100% pure (puran Sant) as SGGS Ji is describing then what is the point of SGGS Ji?

there will be 100% pure enlightened beings amongst us, if there wasnt then Guru Ji would be failing.
I KNOW guru ji is NOT failing. 

Do not go looking for a Sant, for the fake ones are out on the lookout.
Your inner guru listens to your heart, do ardaas to your inner guru...it will guide you. meditate on the shabad guru as much as you can, be good to people...and if your path dictates that you require a 100% pure souls assistance, then out of pure 'coincidence' you will bump into one...only it wont be pure coincidence...your inner guru would have arranged the meeting.


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## arshi (Oct 3, 2013)

*My first response to this thread (Post 2) was marred by unwanted characters/phonetics. The Gurmakhi characters got chewed up in the process. This is just an attempt to put it right. *

ਮੰਤ੍ਰੰ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੰ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੰ ਸਰਬਤ੍ਰ ਪੂਰਨਹ॥
_MantraN raam raam naamaN Dha-yaana sarbatar poornah._

One who recites the Lord’s Name and links the inner consciousness through concentration (and realisation) that He (the Lord) is an all pervading Entity. 

ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੰ ਸਮ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖੰ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਿਰਵੈਰਣਹ॥
_Ga-yaana sam dukh sukhaN jugat nirmal nirvairneh._

He (the sant) is neutral to pleasure and pain and leads a spiritually elevated life free of vengeance and grudge. 

ਦਯਾਲੰ ਸਰਬਤ੍ਰ ਜੀਆ ਪੰਚ ਦੋਖ ਬਿਵਰਜਿਤਹ॥
_D__a-yaalaN sarbatar jee-aa panch dokh bivarjiteh._

A sant is compassionate and kind to all and is free of the five negative traits (the five thieves, _kaam, krodh, lobh, moah_ and _hunkaar_, i.e. lust, anger, greed, attachment and egoism). 

ਭੋਜਨੰ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਕੀਰਤਨੰ ਅਲਪ ਮਾਯਾ ਜਲ ਕਮਲ ਰਹਤਹ॥
_bh__ojanaN gopaal keeratanaN alap maa-yaa jal kamal rahtah._

They take the Kirtan of the Lord's Praise as their food; they remain untouched by Maya, like the lotus in the water.

ਉਪਦੇਸੰ ਸਮ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਤ੍ਰਹ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਾਵਨੀ॥
_updaysaN sam mitar satreh bhagvant bhagat bhaavnee._

Their attitude towards all (foe and friend alike) is one of love and reconciliation. Their devotion towards (and love for) Waheguru is sincere and unconditional. 

ਪਰ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਨਹ ਸ੍ਰੋਤਿ ਸ੍ਰਵਣੰ ਆਪੁਤਿIਗਿ ਸਗਲ ਰੇਣੁਕਹ॥
_par nindaa nah sarot sarvanaN aap ti-yaag sagal raynukeh._

They are above slander – do not listen to slander nor are they perturbed by slander against them. They are a model of humility (dust of all) and serenity. 

ਖਟ ਲਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਣ ਪੂਰਨੰ ਪੁਰਖਹ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮ ਸਾਧ ਸ੍ਵਜਨਹ॥੪੦॥
_kh__at lakh-yan pooranaN pukhah naanak naam saaDh savajniH. ||40||_
A person who has all opf the above six attributes, O Nanak, is a sant, a gurmakh. 


I seek forgiveness for any errors in my English translation.

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## Harry Haller (Oct 4, 2013)

> He (the sant) is neutral to pleasure and pain and leads a spiritually elevated life free of vengeance and grudge.



This comes across to me as slightly Vedic, slightly Buddhist, in some of the more respected Sakhis, the pleasure and pain of the Gurus is documented, although I am not one to base an argument on a Sakhi...

is the goal to be neutral to pleasure and pain and see it all as one, or to acknowledge that there is pleasure and pain in life and feel it with equal acceptence?

My own images of the Gurus is of one in constant pleasure at the connection, one might even call this pleasure Chardi Kala, having pleasure no matter what life throws at you, no matter what you throw at yourself.


Is it the concept of accepting everything equally, and gaining pleasure from everything that is important, or the rejection of pleasure and pain so that one feels nothing?


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## angrisha (Oct 4, 2013)

harry haller said:


> Is it the concept of accepting everything equally, and gaining pleasure from everything that is important, or the rejection of pleasure and pain so that one feels nothing?



Maybe it is rising above it? Rather than rejecting it, because rejection is just another form of denial... something has to exist for you to deny it. So, IMO you would reach a place 'above it' where you accept everything as it is, and understand if there is happiness/unhappiness somewhere it is, because we so choose to see it? 

Just a thought.....


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## arshi (Oct 4, 2013)

Harry ji wrote:



> is the goal to be neutral to pleasure and pain and see it all as one, or* to acknowledge that there is pleasure and pain in life and feel it with equal acceptence?*


Harry ji it took me a few minutes to understand what you are saying – that is if I understand it at all. A translation can never be perfect and feedback from readers is always useful. I think the latter part of your interpretation (highlighted and underlined by me) appeals to me – umm food for thought. *Acceptance *is the keyword - acceptance of Hukam.

*jay sukh deh ta tujheh araaDhee dukh bhee tujhai Dhi-aa-ee. ||2|| (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 757 -11)*

*When You shower happiness upon me, I will worship You; however, even in times of adversity I will meditate (contemplate) upon Your Name.*
This basic translation too can be improved upon.

Thanks and regards

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’


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## chazSingh (Oct 4, 2013)

harry haller said:


> T
> 
> is the goal to be neutral to pleasure and pain and see it all as one, or to acknowledge that there is pleasure and pain in life and feel it with equal acceptence?



I think what you've written above is the same thing 

 neutral to pleasure and pain = acknowledge that there is pleasure and pain in life and feel it with equal acceptence

when one has good fortune, their Ego may tell them "i must have done something really good...look at me...i'm blessed"

when one goes through hardship their Ego may say "why me...what have i done to deserve this...i hate you God"

one who ackowledges both or is neutral to both may say "all is you...I have you as my support through both good and bad...whilst worldly situations change from day to day...you (god) remain forever with me and within me"

Just my current thought Harry Ji,

Hope all is well.......God seems to have heard my wife's calls for wanting a cat...
one appeared in our garden, and now seems to have acquired a home. your comments about '"dogs have masters, and cats have slaves" is 100% true!!!


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## Harry Haller (Oct 4, 2013)

angrisha said:


> Maybe it is rising above it? Rather than rejecting it, because rejection is just another form of denial... something has to exist for you to deny it. So, IMO you would reach a place 'above it' where you accept everything as it is, and understand if there is happiness/unhappiness somewhere it is, because we so choose to see it?
> 
> Just a thought.....



maybe it is the complete rejection then of unhappiness, ie, to be happy no matter what.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 4, 2013)

chazSingh said:


> I think what you've written above is the same thing
> 
> neutral to pleasure and pain = acknowledge that there is pleasure and pain in life and feel it with equal acceptence
> 
> ...



although on the face of it, you have a point, but delve a bit deeper, to be neutral to pleasure and pain gives me an image of a sage, on a mountain top, in the cold, refusing to partake in life, refusing to acknowledge pleasure or pain, to be basically nothing. 

whereas, your Sikh, accepting of pleasure and pain, takes pleasure in pleasure, and pleasure in pain, for instance, your Sikh is walking down the road, sees an ice cream shop, goes in, has an ice cream, takes pleasure from the ice cream, gets in his car, drives off, someone rear ends him, his head hits the windscreen, suddenly, pain, he feels pain, but this is a Sikh we are talking about, ahh pain, let us look deeper, thank you Creator for giving me this wonderful gift that is able to tell me that I have suffered a trauma to the head, a paramedic arrives, describe the pain, so the pain is described, ahh that is probably concussion, let us take you to the hospital, on the way, the Sikh is thinking thank you Creator again that through this pain I was able to quickly outline my symptoms and I was able to be helped, without this pain, I could have suffered even more as I would have been unaware that I was hurt.

just a thought


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## chazSingh (Oct 4, 2013)

harry haller said:


> although on the face of it, you have a point, but delve a bit deeper, to be neutral to pleasure and pain gives me an image of a sage, on a mountain top, in the cold, refusing to partake in life, refusing to acknowledge pleasure or pain, to be basically nothing.
> 
> whereas, your Sikh, accepting of pleasure and pain, takes pleasure in pleasure, and pleasure in pain, for instance, your Sikh is walking down the road, sees an ice cream shop, goes in, has an ice cream, takes pleasure from the ice cream, gets in his car, drives off, someone rear ends him, his head hits the windscreen, suddenly, pain, he feels pain, but this is a Sikh we are talking about, ahh pain, let us look deeper, thank you Creator for giving me this wonderful gift that is able to tell me that I have suffered a trauma to the head, a paramedic arrives, describe the pain, so the pain is described, ahh that is probably concussion, let us take you to the hospital, on the way, the Sikh is thinking thank you Creator again that through this pain I was able to quickly outline my symptoms and I was able to be helped, without this pain, I could have suffered even more as I would have been unaware that I was hurt.
> 
> just a thought


that's a good example...

going further, maybe the sikh who's just had his car rear ended...feels pain, anger manifest within him...the mind wants to go out in a rage and scream at the other driver...

The sikh however, not being a slave to the 5 thieves...takes a deep breath...realises he/she is ok...steps out of the car, and asks the other driver if they are ok...assists the other driver first before looking at their own injuries...the other driver is taken back, because they expected some anger or verbal abuse from the other driver...instead, they received compassion instead.

the other driver...gets taken to the hospital...thinks back at the event and tells his own family of this sikh who assisted where others may have reacted differently...the family are greatfull for the 'positive' response from the sikh...they feel happy that through such a bad event, some caring and compassion manifested. the positive ripple just keeps on moving 

The sikh - regardless of all the inconveniences of having to change his plans, deal with insurance, getting his car re-paired...thanks God for giving him the opportunity to serve another, and just gets on with life.

I've seen people respond to bad events in this way...they are a breath of fresh air


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## Luckysingh (Oct 11, 2013)

harry haller said:


> Is it the concept of accepting everything equally, and gaining pleasure from everything that is important, or the rejection of pleasure and pain so that one feels nothing?


 
I think the key is to make that fine line of duality as fainter as possible.
To ACCEPT both pain and pleasure with equal gratitude is living by the pure hukam.
To REJECT the extremes of effects that pain and pleasure can give to one's mind is probably also a good route to take. To reject the extreme joy of champagne cracking ecstatic behavior to the extreme depressive state of sorrow and remorse of pain, is also where one should position their reactions.

Chazji mentioned the EGO, and this is what we should really have a better grip over. -
We ACCEPT that the Ego makes up the me of my actions and always tries to convince the mind that ONLY the Me is in control of what Me can or will do.
Instead,we should REJECT- the fact that the Ego is at the forefront. In other words, accept that the EGO is there and will remain BUT reject the fact that the EGO is the primary doer and is always at the centre stage of your life's play.

I personally think that in gurbani and especially Bhagat Kabirji, -when speaks about death and dying is talking to me about killing, death or suicide of Ego itself. After all, how often do we think or assume that Ego is what makes us the living beings we are. We forget about having a God centre within us but we think it is just Me, My Ego that is the root of our centre instead!


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## Harry Haller (Oct 12, 2013)

> I think the key is to make that fine line of duality as fainter as possible.
> To ACCEPT both pain and pleasure with equal gratitude is living by the pure hukam.


I cannot reconcile this, maybe others can, but I cannot. The reason I cannot is that nothing bad has ever happened to me other than by my own hand, so if in the future I get diabetes because I stuff myself with chocolate and energy drinks, how can I accept this as Hukam? If I then continue to gorge on chocolate and my diabetes gets worse, am I to keep accepting or should I look at my own actions and make changes to my life? To some extent pain and pleasure exist as warning lights, I do not believe Sikhism is about walking around with a thorn in your foot, or having a cancer, and being accepting. The pain is a sign something is wrong, a warning to do something about it, be it give up destructive habits, or remove the thorn from your foot. Again this philosophy brings to mind the foundation for most of the eastern religions, whereas Sikhism has it its heart the use of ones brain, ones logic, ones discretion. If you feel pain, look at the pain, what is causing it, why is it there, do something about it....



> To REJECT the extremes of effects that pain and pleasure can give to  one's mind is probably also a good route to take. To reject the extreme  joy of champagne cracking ecstatic behavior to the extreme depressive  state of sorrow and remorse of pain, is also where one should position  their reactions.


Not all pleasure is bad, the pleasure from seeing a child get married, or from from seeing the results of good deeds, of giving, of helping, of connection, these are all pleasurable pursuits, the pleasure actually encouraging you to carry on doing such.There is no extreme joy in champagne fuelled behaviour, and even in the middle of it, there is always a gnawing feeling that this is false pleasure, we live in a society where pleasure is available at the touch of a button, at the opening of a bottle, the rolling of a dollar bill, a cruise through a redlight area, not all pleasure is the same. True pleasure has to be worked for, to be earned, and is only pleasurable to those that understand 'the way'.



> Chazji mentioned the EGO, and this is what we should really have a better grip over. -
> We ACCEPT that the Ego makes up the me of my actions and always tries to  convince the mind that ONLY the Me is in control of what Me can or will  do.


You disregard many other factors, state of mind, level of connection, chemicals in the brain due to drugs, be they prescription or non prescription, chemicals due to food, drink, circumstances of life, the brain is nothing more than an infinite amount of chemical reactions all taking place, and this defines mood, again, how much of this is in our own hands?



> I personally think that in gurbani and especially Bhagat Kabirji, -when  speaks about death and dying is talking to me about killing, death or  suicide of Ego itself. After all, how often do we think or assume that  Ego is what makes us the living beings we are. We forget about having a  God centre within us but we think it is just Me, My Ego that is the root  of our centre instead!


I believe we all possess a true personality, a god given personality, that we have to find and be, I also believe, like you state above, that we have to go through many personalities before we find the true god given one, free of moods, chemicals and completely in tune with Creation itself. This does not mean we should be aloof or unaware, in fact the opposite, where other religions teach aloofness and being apart as a way, I believe Sikhism advocates the opposite, absolute and complete connection, with 100% feeling.


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## angrisha (Oct 12, 2013)

harry haller said:


> I cannot reconcile this, maybe others can, but I cannot. The reason I cannot is that nothing bad has ever happened to me other than by my own hand, so if in the future I get diabetes because I stuff myself with chocolate and energy drinks, how can I accept this as Hukam? If I then continue to gorge on chocolate and my diabetes gets worse, am I to keep accepting or should I look at my own actions and make changes to my life? To some extent pain and pleasure exist as warning lights, I do not believe Sikhism is about walking around with a thorn in your foot, or having a cancer, and being accepting. The pain is a sign something is wrong, a warning to do something about it, be it give up destructive habits, or remove the thorn from your foot. Again this philosophy brings to mind the foundation for most of the eastern religions, whereas Sikhism has it its heart the use of ones brain, ones logic, ones discretion. If you feel pain, look at the pain, what is causing it, why is it there, do something about it....



I think that's what the point is? That, suffering is created by us, usually it's something we've done that has led to it. Certain things may be beyond our immediate control like cancer or being born a certain way, but every challenge anyone has in they're life is an opportunity to learn something from. Whatever your challenge is, there's usually many if with in that you can reach a place of acceptance it becomes easier to move to a better mental state with it. What we resist persists... We do this all the time when moving on from the past. The thing is to be able to do that on a moment to moment bases. So, pain although unpleasant is apart of hukam.. pain is an Indication that something needs to be looked at, and paid attention to.  Without it, we wouldn't be pushed to grow. 





> You disregard many other factors, state of mind, level of connection, chemicals in the brain due to drugs, be they prescription or non prescription, chemicals due to food, drink, circumstances of life, the brain is nothing more than an infinite amount of chemical reactions all taking place, and this defines mood, again, how much of this is in our own hands?



Some ppl are more prone to certain affects, but our brain is very plastic. We, reinforce certain pathways... So the more you focus on negative thoughts etc the more those specific pathways are enforced. Studies show that by changing thought patterns we can create and reinforce new connections, in areas of the brain that are responsible for happiness etc. So,we very much do have control. 



> I believe we all possess a true personality, a god given personality, that we have to find and be, I also believe, like you state above, that we have to go through many personalities before we find the true god given one, free of moods, chemicals and completely in tune with Creation itself. This does not mean we should be aloof or unaware, in fact the opposite, where other religions teach aloofness and being apart as a way, I believe Sikhism advocates the opposite, absolute and complete connection, with 100% feeling.



I heard once and I forget from who... That your personality is here to serve your soul. I agree that sikhi is about being fully present and connected. Which can often be harder than renunciation of the world. Which may also work for some ppl


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## chazSingh (Oct 14, 2013)

harry haller said:


> I cannot reconcile this, maybe others can, but I cannot. The reason I cannot is that nothing bad has ever happened to me other than by my own hand, so if in the future I get diabetes because I stuff myself with chocolate and energy drinks, how can I accept this as Hukam? If I then continue to gorge on chocolate and my diabetes gets worse, am I to keep accepting or should I look at my own actions and make changes to my life?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Randip Singh (Oct 14, 2013)

I don't know who or what is a Sant but this is what Bani says:

*The people who know nothing about spirituality sing religious songs.
Like the idol hungry Mullah turns his home into a mosque.
The lazy fellow who pierces his ears to look like a Yogi.
While someone who does a dirty job and works hard loses his social status.
One who calls himself a guru or a spiritual teacher, while he goes around begging
- don't ever touch his feet.
One who works for what he eats, and gives some of what he has Nanak say's, he knows the Path. 

Page 1245 Guru Granth Sahib *


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## Harry Haller (Oct 15, 2013)

> problem with examples like this is - what about all the people that eat  healthy, exercise, do all the things required to not get diabetes..but  then end up with diabetes and their neighbour who eats what he wants  lives a healthy life...that must be a kick in ones Ego...what control  does one really truely have?



There is no problem, such people have made every effort to live life by bani, there is no one to blame, such action is Hukam through and through, to ask what control does one have is to make a mockery of the word Gursikh. Once again, I detect a sense of whatever will be, will be, which is not the essence of Sikhism, in Sikhism you fight, you do not accept what life has handed to you, you overcome. 

The issue is clear, it is the difference between accepting Hukam, and accepting the consequences of your own actions, you are almost saying your own actions are also Hukam, this is called fate, and resigning oneself to such, ie, it was fate that I would eat chocolate and make myself ill, rather than a choice.



> And your thoughts...the thoughts that prompt you to eat lots of  chocolates...how much control do you have over these? i mean...if you  know chocolate is bad for you...why don;t we just stop the thoughts of  "go on, eat that chocolate".?



Your suggesting we have no control over ourselves? of course we do, it is called discipline, some are very disciplined, some are not. I am not, in fact I am possibly the most undisciplined person you have ever met, unless the consequences of my actions have been burnt into me with a red hot poker, I will carry on regardless, and even then, once the scars fade, I forget very easily, if I am not blame myself, and find that inner discipline and rely on your method of complete acceptence, I may as well slit my thoat now, as there is no hope, just Mr Beardie in the sky whom I can pray and appease so that he may bestow on me the desire not to eat chocolate.



> And if we cannot completely control these thoughts...i guess the trick  is to not latch onto them and become a slave to them...then you  transcend the mind...and come into 'knowledge' of your true self...and  then the really amazing discoveries begin. because we have accepted.."i  am not the body, i am not my thoughts, i am not my mind...and am not  limited to this...how could I eve have limited myself to this....I AM  MORE...WHO AM I...is there even an I"



Your suggesting that those thoughts exist and cannot be banished, I disagree, they can, but it takes a lot of discipline, wisdom and understanding, and a few red hot pokers for some people, your method is to box them, put them aside, ignore them, accept them, again, I refute this, to do so is to learn nothing, it is to ignore the thorn in your foot, to learn to live with it, I would rather yank it out, one way or another.

mind, brain, soul, wolf, man, 

all one , Ek Onkar


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## chazSingh (Oct 15, 2013)

> Your suggesting we have no control over ourselves? of course we do, it is called discipline,
> 
> Your suggesting that those thoughts exist and cannot be banished, I disagree, they can, but it takes a lot of discipline, wisdom and understanding, a


This is just it....discipline...

turning the balance from 'being used by the mind' to 'using the mind'

how often do we say to ourselves "why am i thinking these negative things" "why can't i stop these crazy thoughts"

or

how many times do we say "i shouldnt do that....shouldnt do it"...then a few minutes later... "we're doing it..."

Then mind says "why did you do it fool..." "it's ok...next time we won;t"

Then next time "we do it again"

the discipline is breaking the hold that our thoughts often have on us...

how you get that discipline is up to you..

I started doing Tai Chi...we do a sequence of forms in slow motion...not because it looks good...but because we are 'Using' our mind for balance, control, and a purpose...

during the form, mind often drifts into thoughts of Money, sex, life problems, etc etc...and form breaks...control breaks...so we start again..

eventually mind is in full control...very little wayward thoughts...and one comes into knowledge of themselves in a way they couldn't ever imagine...experience of chi...

from Intention -> Thoughts generation -> manifestion of intention into physical action..everything in perfect harmony and control...


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## chazSingh (Oct 15, 2013)

think we're getting off topic again


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## spnadmin (Oct 15, 2013)

chazSingh said:


> This is just it....discipline...
> 
> turning the balance from 'being used by the mind' to 'using the mind'
> 
> ...



chazSingh ji

What do your words have to do with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? The question, what is a Sant, is put into an SGGS context. To say from "Intention > Though generation > Manifestation of intention into physical action...everything in perfect harmony and control..." sounds more like a mind-over-matter point of view, or a personal opinion. Which is OK. If it is a personal opinion that needs to be made clear so that readers do not get the impression that this is based in Gurmat. Likewise the "experience of chi..." has no connecton to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The thread however is supposed to be looking at whether "Sant" has a unique meaning in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 

Please clear this up or some posts, in the exchange between you and Harry ji, need to be split from the thread and placed in Interfaith dialogues or in LIfestyle.


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## chazSingh (Oct 15, 2013)

spnadmin said:


> chazSingh ji
> 
> What do your words have to do with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? The question, what is a Sant, is put into an Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji context. To say from "Intention > Though generation > Manifestation of intention into physical action...everything in perfect harmony and control..." sounds more like a mind-over-matter point of view, or a personal opinion. Which is OK. If it is a personal opinion that needs to be made clear so that readers do not get the impression that this is based in Gurmat. Likewise the "experience of chi..." has no connecton to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The thread however is supposed to be looking at whether "Sant" has a unique meaning in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
> 
> Please clear this up or some posts, in the exchange between you and Harry ji, need to be split from the thread and placed in Interfaith dialogues or in LIfestyle.



The word Sant has been very nicely explained by other members.

For the rest, it is off topic so my posts can be removed or we can just move back to the subject at hand.


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## spnadmin (Oct 15, 2013)

chazSingh ji

I agree. All need to get back to topic of the thread. Thanx.


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## angrisha (Oct 17, 2013)

I was thinking of this thread in relation to Anand Sahib, this is the portion of I was looking at

ਆਵਹੁ  ਸੰਤ  ਪਿਆਰਿਹੋ  ਅਕਥ  ਕੀ  ਕਰਹ  ਕਹਾਣੀ  ॥ 
Āvhu sanṯ pi▫āriho akath kī karah kahāṇī. 
Come, Beloved Saints, let us speak the Unspoken Speech of the Lord. 
ਕਰਹ  ਕਹਾਣੀ  ਅਕਥ  ਕੇਰੀ  ਕਿਤੁ  ਦੁਆਰੈ  ਪਾਈਐ  ॥ 
Karah kahāṇī akath kerī kiṯ ḏu▫ārai pā▫ī▫ai. 
How can we speak the Unspoken Speech of the Lord? Through which door will we find Him? 
ਤਨੁ  ਮਨੁ  ਧਨੁ  ਸਭੁ  ਸਉਪਿ  ਗੁਰ  ਕਉ  ਹੁਕਮਿ  ਮੰਨਿਐ  ਪਾਈਐ  ॥ 
Ŧan man ḏẖan sabẖ sa▫up gur ka▫o hukam mani▫ai pā▫ī▫ai. 
Surrender body, mind, wealth, and everything to the Guru; obey the Order of His Will, and you will find Him. 
ਹੁਕਮੁ  ਮੰਨਿਹੁ  ਗੁਰੂ  ਕੇਰਾ  ਗਾਵਹੁ  ਸਚੀ  ਬਾਣੀ  ॥ 
Hukam mannihu gurū kerā gāvhu sacẖī baṇī. 
Obey the Hukam of the Guru's Command, and sing the True Word of His Bani. 
ਕਹੈ  ਨਾਨਕੁ  ਸੁਣਹੁ  ਸੰਤਹੁ  ਕਥਿਹੁ  ਅਕਥ  ਕਹਾਣੀ  ॥੯॥ 
Kahai Nānak suṇhu sanṯahu kathihu akath kahāṇī. ||9|| 
Says Nanak, listen, O Saints, and speak the Unspoken Speech of the Lord. ||9|| 




So im curious, if we think about the idea of a 'real Sant'.. then as long as were able to follow Hukam, wouldn't everyone be a real sant then?


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## chazSingh (Oct 18, 2013)

angrisha said:


> I was thinking of this thread in relation to Anand Sahib, this is the portion of I was looking at
> 
> ਆਵਹੁ  ਸੰਤ  ਪਿਆਰਿਹੋ  ਅਕਥ  ਕੀ  ਕਰਹ  ਕਹਾਣੀ  ॥
> Āvhu sanṯ pi▫āriho akath kī karah kahāṇī.
> ...



The potential is there within us all...to be awoken to that state of being...

And it's not something we should desire...or work towards...or have it as a desired target...because it is our true state of being...

not the state of being that our Ego has led us to believe...

from my very short journey into Gurbani, Simran, Amrit Vela etc, the realization is that there is sooooo much more to us than we could ever possibly imagine


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## spnadmin (Oct 18, 2013)

chazSingh said:


> The potential is there within us all...to be awoken to that state of being...
> 
> And it's not something we should desire...or work towards...or have it as a desired target...because it is our true state of being...
> 
> ...




chaz Singh ji thank you for re-posting the shabad angrisha ji posted. How do you make the connection between that shabad and your remarks which you have stated in one way or another many times? thanks


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## chazSingh (Jan 1, 2016)

spnadmin said:


> chaz Singh ji thank you for re-posting the shabad angrisha ji posted. How do you make the connection between that shabad and your remarks which you have stated in one way or another many times? thanks



Angrisha has contemplated on a shabad which has prompted her to ask *further* questions... my reply is to her further questions, not that particular shabad itself.


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