# Professor Sarbjit Singh Dhunda



## spnadmin (Sep 4, 2011)

Is he really the "rogue of India" as titled on other Internet sites? Or is he yet one more target of interests vested in promoting parkash of Dasam Granth?

Sarbjit Singh ji is a kathawachak inspired by Sikh Rehat Maryada, and is featured on Sikh TV. 


Prof Sarabjit Singh Gurbani Katha 1 of 4.mp4      - YouTube

Prof Sarabjit Singh Gurbani Katha 2 of 4      - YouTube

Prof Sarabjit Singh Gurbani Katha 3 of 4      - YouTube

Prof Sarabjit Singh Gurbani Katha 4 of 4      - YouTube


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 5, 2011)

He is one of the best Kathawachaks who gives logical and professional interpretations of Gurbani according to Guru Philosophy and not coloured by vedas and pro-sanatanist views.
Guur nanak ji gave the world a Brand NEW GYAAN..the latest knowledge of Akal Purakh as given in Mool mantar and Japji sahib...and then continued in SGGS.
IF it was just  a REHASH of vedas and Puraans..then whats the reason for Guur nanak ji to come and spend over 250 years....perfecting the KHALSA. ??
The DG brigade (accompanied by the sant baba derwaadees) hate his guts becasue he talks about SGGS and Akal Takhat maryada ONLY exclusively depending on SGGS only.....while they all love the puranas mahabhartas and ramayan mythologicla tall tales and sing two liner jingles called dhaarnas and waddeh mahapurash giving amrit to even dogs and animals to save their souls...and all such utter rubbish..
Dhunda Ji has served in Malaysia as well as a kathawachak...and he is one shining star..who broadcasts from Gurdawra Bangla sahib...winkingmunda


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 5, 2011)

ALL 6 "comments" on that particluar U-Tube page repeat the same thing.."what no Rehat from 1708-1935 ?? Did the panth just go on wothout a rehat ?? after Guur Gobind Singh ji..blah blah blah...and that the SRM is not passed/its a kharrah (draft) etc etc..

1. Of course there are Rehits from 1708....BUT theyr were SO MANY, self conflicting and self contradictory, various rehatnamas by singhs, brahmins disguised as singhs etc etc...each had his own Rehat..UNTIL the 1935 SGPC initiated a serious LOOK at ALL existing rehats and coem up with a  UNIFORM wella ccepted Common SRM. This  Huge took over a  DECADE of WORLWIDE Discussion/sujhaas/suggestions form World wide Gurdawras Singh Sabhas, eminet personalities jathebandis etc etc. IN that period fo time such an effort is indeed most COMMENDABLE...Today with the MESS we are in no such effort cna even get off the ground...becasue the opposing sides are so deeply entrenched they wont budge an inch from their OWN JATHEBANDI/DERA Stand.  While the Panth accepted this 1935 SRM..the OPPOSING Sant DERAS and Taksaals NEVER ACCEPTED it and have spent the past 5 DECADES SABOTAGING the SRM with all their might. ALL Taksaals, deras, jathas have their OWN Maryadas...set in motion by their own SANT...Nanaksari maryada, rarrewallah maryada, Taksaal Maryada, AKJ maryada..Asutosh maryada, Sacha Sauda maryada, Noormehal Maryada, Radha Soami maryada...ALL are DIFFERENT from each other and from SRM of Akal takhat. TODAY its a TRAGEDY that those who sit on the Takhats themsleves beleive in and follow their OWN DERA Maryadas and NOT Akal takhat maryada. Hazoor sahib ahs its own maryada - slaughter of live goats and shastar tilak is part of that..Patna sahib has its own maryada.. THIS MIX is the reason why so many SIKHS matha tek at Msulim Pir Graves and also in mandirs and Gurdawras..to them its all the same...they wear gatras and Kirpans and have flowing beards and yet also carry Green Chadars at mazaars and present Parshaad at hanuman Mandirs for devi blessings..Havans and chalisas are done by Taksaal Maryada followers...Each plays his own Tabla...


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## aristotle (Sep 5, 2011)

Prof. Dhunda is one of the finest preachers who have a finger on the peoples' vein. He does not use many difficult words in his sermons and his rendition of Gurbani too is melodious. What a pity on those who don't enjoy his sermons... 
animatedkhanda1


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## OSingh (Sep 5, 2011)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sarbjit Singh is totally against Sikh Rahat Maryada:

_Meditating on Nam (Divine Substance) and Scriptures
Article IV _

_1. A Sikh should wake up in the ambrosial hours (three hours before the dawn), take bath and, concentrating his/her thoughts on One Immortal Being, repeat the name Waheguru (Wondrous Destroyer of darkness). 
2. He/she should recite the following scriptural compositions every day : 
a. The Japu, *the Jaapu* and the Ten Sawayyas (Quartets) - beginning "Sarwag sudh"-- in the morning._

As per Sikh Rehat Maryada, it is a duty of every Sikh to recite sri Jaap Sahib. This means that Taksal, Sampradia and various Jathas who recite Jaap Sahib are closer to SRM than Sarbjit Singh.

I guess bhai Vir Singh ji, professor Sahib singh ji and countless other Gurmukhs who recited Jaap sahib and did translations of the great bani, are 'akhauti'. What a fool!

I have top say this Sarbjit Singh has commited a great mistake for questioning the authenticity of sri Jaap sahib.

What he can't be forgiven is for using the words 'akhauti' and 'koor parchar'. 

Taksal, AKJ, Nihang and varoius other sampradaia have bought countless into Sikh and still are. Thousands of students are taught Gurbani by Taksal, thousands are being tuaght kirtan, ucharan etc by jatha's who fully believe in Jaap Sahib. Are the 'False' and doing 'False Prachar' as Sarbjit Singh is saying. 

I bow my head to Gurmukhs from AKJ, Taksal, Nihang..... who have inspired countless to keep kesh, recite bani, kirtan etc. How can we just smear all these great jathebandis because they recite sri Jaap Sahib? 

So bhai Vir Singh ji and professor Sahib Singh ji (Guru Granth darpan) believed and recited Jaap sahib, so were they doing 'koor parchar' and are they 'akhauti'?

How many thousand today read professor Sahib Singh's works on Gurbani. Is he 'false' and doing 'false parchar'? Professor Sahib Singh is our SatkarYog.

Here is professor Sahib Singh ji's take on sri Jaap Sahib:

"_‘Jaap’ Sahib is the ‘bani’ of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. From the rehatnamas [we find] Satguru Ji insisting that every Sikh should, at the very least, recite Japji and Jaap every morning. This bani is also read during the preparation of ‘Amrit’_"

read more on - http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Jaap_Sahib_Steek

So SRM and many prominent Gurmukhs preached on the importance, today many are still reading books by Vir Singh ji and Sahib Singh ji. They have bought countless towards Guru Sahib not to mention countless other Gurmukhs who believed and recited Jaap Sahib. 

How can anyone dare say these great Gurmukhs were doing kuur parchar?!

As per SRM:

_Ceremony of Baptism or Initiation

Article XXIV 

_

_j. The scriptural composition to be recited are : The Japuji, *The Jaap*, *The Ten Sawayyas  (commencing with Sarawag Sud), The Bainti Chaupai (From "hamri karo hath dai rachha"* to "dusht dokh te leho te bachai"), Anand Sahib._

So those that are in agreement with Sarbjit Singh, how will you perform amrit sanchar without Jaap Sahib? If you follow SRM you it is mandatory to read this bani as part of your nitnem and it must be read durin amrit sanchar.

Unfortunate are those that do not recite sri Jaap sahib.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## spnadmin (Sep 5, 2011)

Sangat ji

What is your understanding of how the Jaap Sahib became part of the SRM?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 5, 2011)

1. I have nothing to say the least against what OSingh ji veer has written. 110% in agreement with all his points.I was given the jail Chitthian of BSB Randhir Singh as a gift for my 5th birthday by my late dad and he also gifted me the knowledge of how to appreciate all the other 50 or so books by BSB.
2. My appreciation of Prof Dhunda is based on his interpreattion and katha of Gurbani...which i find commendable. Points 1 and 2 are not mutually exclusive for me...agreement with 1 doesnt have to excluse 2...not in my book.
3. Jaap sahib is part of SRM. period. Any and all have to accept that as long as it states so in SRM. Personal disagreement is personal level.
4 Its also a undeniable fact that the Rehatnamahs and all historicla records of vasakhi 1699 FAIL to note down the actual banis read...only Japji sahib is named in most...rest of the banis differ from one to the other....sad but true. The SRM committee in 1035 came to an agreement and selected these banis based on evidence available at THAT time...facts can CHANGE..evidence cna becoem available...and so its a Fallacy to argue that just becasue Bhai Vir Singh read this..its Gurbani...or that becasue so and so snat said this..its true...the ONLY UNDENIABLE TRUTH is GURBANI in SGGS. all else is man made. The banis outside SGGS read at PAHUL are simply for PAHUL and proscribed as Nitnem. period. This was what i was told by the panj and I will stick to that until the panj tell me otherwise.


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## OSingh (Sep 5, 2011)

Its funny how Taksal, Jatha and other samprdaia are always bashed, but they are following SRM by reciting sri Jaap Sahib.

Sarbjit Singh by rejecting sri Jaap Sahib is going against SRM.

I can accept that people have questions regarding Dasam Granth, more research is required. However calling those that promote sri Jaap Sahib as 'akhauti' and doing 'false parchar' is anti-panthic and anti-SRM. How many people has Sarbjit Singh insulted in above video? Countless Gursikhs have been reciting sri Jaap Sahib as part of their nitnem, Vidhvaan's such as bhai Kahn Singh Nabha ji, kirtanis such as bhai Jasbir Singh Khanne ji.........

So many Gursikhs who have read this bani have inspired others to chakk amrit and japp naam. 

Prominent Gursikhs were involved in SRM like bhai Vir Singh ji. They came to the decision that *sri Jaap Sahib is bani* of Guru Gobind Singh ji and is *mandatory in Amrit Sanchar and Nitnem*. So anybody that follows SRM cannot reject this bani or they are going against *panthic* maryada.

Anyway I'm not against debate, but such a debate should take place on a panthic level with good Sikh scholars. Producing such videos and name-calling will get us nowhere.

I'm seriously shocked that people are questioning the authenticity of sri Jaap Sahib. 

At the very least sri Choupai Sahib and sri Jaap Sahib should not be questioned at all.

Also we should be careful in the maguage we use when discussing Dasam Bani. 

Rabb Rakhe


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## OSingh (Sep 5, 2011)

Here are 2 examples from none other than bhai Nand Lal Singh ji, beloved Sikh of sri Guru Gobind Singh ji:

ਜਪੁ ਜੀ ਜਾਪੁ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਚਿੱਤ ਲਾਇ 

Read and concentrate on sri Jap ji sahib and sri Jaap sahib

ਕਰਿ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪ

Do ishnan and read sri Jap ji sahib and sri Jaap sahib

Bhai Prahlad Singh:

ਬਿਨਾ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪੁ ਜਪੇ, ਜੋ ਜੋਵਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ
They who eat without reciting Japji Sahib and Jaap Sahib (Nitnem)
ਸੋ ਬਿਸਟਾ ਕਾ ਕਿਰਮ ਹੁਇ, ਜਨਮ ਗਵਾਵੈ ਬਾਦ
Are no better then waste and are ruining their lives.


The anti-dasam granth group seem to find any fault with a manuscript then discard the whole document! This is wrong. 

There are many other rehitname's which confirm sri Jaap sahib shpuld be recited. I agree some rehitname's might have been tampered with, but we should be able to use the touchstone of Gurbani to take the Gurmat Rehits out of the Manmat Rehits.

Sri Jaap seems to be mentioned in most rehitname's as a nitnem bani.

The reason I mentioned bhai Vir singh is that he is widely respected in panth along with professor Sahib Singh. Also professor ji doesn't belong to any jatha, dera,taksal. So nobody can use the dera, taksal,baba card : )
Professor Sahib came to the conclusion sri Jaap Sahib is the rachna (creation) of Guru Gobind Singh.

Most significant of all committee of SRM came to conclusion sri Jaap sahib is rachna of Guru Gobind Singh. 

Note - Sarbjit Singh called those that believe, preach sri Jaap sahib are 'akhauti' - false and do 'false/garbage parchar'. With this one statement he has insulted countless Gursikhs.

Rabb Rakhe


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 5, 2011)

O Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You sound a bit upset and I have no idea why. Disagreements are part and parcel of our learning process called Sikhi way of life. Yes, SRM says we should read Jaap and other poetry which some claim to be written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. 

The only person who could claim that would be Guru Gobind Singh ji himself and we know he did not. So, in a way the scholars of yesteryears  and many of today's are undermining our Dasam Pita, who sacrificed his own father, his four sons, lowered himself to our level to raise us up to his by making us Khalsa through Khandei di pahul.

A polyglot scholar like Guru Gobind Singh added his father's Gurbani on different pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, not just at the end as many think, and the most important part that all of us should remind ourselves as often as possible is, that he did not add a single word of his own.

This brings up the big question, WHY? 

The simple answer is,"No one knows why, except Guru Gobind Singh himself".

Now, if those who call themselves scholars claim to know the answer of the above, then they are doing nothing but second guessing our Dasam Pita which is an insult and uncalled for. They are doing dis-service to Sikhi no matter how good their intentions were/are.

Bhai Vir Singh ji was a great scholar of his time and added a lot to Sikhi knowledge. There is no question about it. He was also one of those people who concocted Hemkunt, an anti Sikhi concept along with other Sikh scholars. I am sure you know the "his story" (of Dasam Pita) created by them to justify their finding. It has become an annual obligatory pilgrimage for many Sikhs as a ritualistic Hajj.

Prof. Sahib Singh has the best interpretation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru and it has become the foundation stone to take his wonderful elaboration  farther.

The above two things prove that Sikhi is an ever evolving way of life and it has not stopped in time like other religions, the point  I have repeated many times in my posts.

No one knows for sure which banis were recited outside of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji during Khandei di pahul ceremony. But if our Dasam Pita had recited anything out of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the logical conclusion dictates, based on his actions that he must have added that to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru first as he did his father's Guru Teg Bahadur's bani.

We all know that the three Banis of our Nitnem are in  the beginning of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, in the following order:

1. Jap 
2. Sou Dhar (Rehras without Chapaui and Anand)
3. Sohila

You mentioned poetry by Bhai Nand Lal  in one of your posts. The fact of the matter is that neither the poetry of Bhai Nand Lal nor of Bhai Gurdas' passed the benchmark that our visionary Gurus had established, hence they were not added into Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

There are some threads regarding Hemkunt and Bhai Gurdas in this wonderful forum. I would urge you to go through them and share your thoughts with us. There is also a little article regarding SRM which I wrote many years ago which can be found through search.

We are all Sikhs, learners, seekers, students and because of this, disagreements will arise often which would challenge us to broaden our horizons which is a true Sikhi spirit.

So, please do not take anything I wrote as an offence but a part of a healthy interaction.

Hope to hear from you.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 6, 2011)

OSingh Ji, Gurfateh.

We have to always keep in mind thta the only one ABHULL is Guru Kartaar Himself.

ALL others no matter how great can and have made mistakes. This is my main point of contention with the Jatha followers of BSB Randhir Singh...He was  agreat Gursikh BUT not Guru kartar....same applies to Bhai Vir Singh, Prof Sahib Singh, and various other lesser scholars...each is just a human and can make mistakes.

This is the 3rd millineum, we have various new methods and techniques to check writings and discerning minds tuned to enquire and explore. Whatever frauds committed on the Sikh kaum by various vested interests long ago can be exposed with these new methods of research..the INTERNET places at our FINGER TIPS more resources than any man ever dreamed of...the resources Bhai vir singh etc had at his command were seriously limited...today even you and I cna have access to vast libraries, original manuscripts all over the world at the click of a mouse and so our HORIZONS are much much wider than those departed scholars...Its a FACT that the ENEMY that encountered GURU NANAK JI form Day ONE (Janeau rejection) was very strong and is even stronger TODAY. All his energy has been spent in assimilating Gurmatt into Hinduism..and hes still going at it as strongly as he can...while the Sikhs are weak and splintered..we only have Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our TOUCH STONE....and what a fantastic Touch stone it is..no one has yet been able to come near to doubting its contents and survived...but this cannot be said of the writings outside Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So I keep an open mind...


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## OSingh (Sep 6, 2011)

Tejwant Singh ji

I have provided some sources for authenticity of sri Jaap Sahib. 

Who can deny bhai Nand Lal singh ji's writings, he was a contemporary of Guru Gobind Singh.

Rehitname are vital documents no one can dismiss these documents. What we have to do is take out the milk and leave the insects, extract the truth from these documents.

ਜਪੁ ਜੀ ਜਾਪੁ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਚਿੱਤ ਲਾਇ 
ਕਰਿ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪ

Above two lines are from bhai Nand Lal Singh ji. In my opinion this is great evidence to support authenticity of sri Jaap Sahib. Also Bhai Nand Lal Singh ji's writing hold great importance in the panth and bhai Nand Lal Singh ji's works can even be recited as per SRM:

_Article VI _

_c) In the congragation, Kirtan only of Gurbani (Guru Granth's or Guru Gobind Singh's  hymns) and, for its elaboration, of the compositions of *Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal*, may  be performed._

I urge you to read the bani of Gurmukh, Bhai Nand Lal Singh ji, so far I haven't found anything anti-gurmat in his writings. His bani is widely accepted in the panth, the only reason their bani is not quoted more is that Sikh's have lost ability to speak/write Farsi.

If Rahit Nama document (bhai Nand Lal ji)is authentic, which I think it is. Then we can conclude that sri Jaap Sahib is authentic and should be recited.

Sarbjit Singh doesn't provide any evidence in the video above, he just seems to think those that read/promote this bani are 'akhauti' and doing 'koor parchar'. 

Another great test is to actually do paath of sri Jaap sahib and sri Choupai sahib.

Sri Choupai Sahib is great bani. After reciting this bani, I have not an iota of doubt this is sri Dasmesh ji's rachna. Have you tried actually doing paath of sri Choupai sahib? For me the personal experience of reciting Jaap sahib and Choupai Sahib are ther greatest proofs for me. Sri Choupai Sahib is addictive, when you do paath once, its hard to imagine not reciting this baani. Same goes for sri Jaap Sahib. 

Also, Tejwant Singh, the ardas we recite everyday, in which document is the dohra recorded?

Giani Jarnail Singh ji, what is the source for 'sawa lakh se ek larraoan'?

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## Tejwant Singh (Sep 6, 2011)

OSingh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> I have provided some sources for authenticity of sri Jaap Sahib.


Let's be honest about things here as we are talking about Gurmat ideals on which Sikhi is based. You have not provided any source for authenticity of Jaap. You have provided opinions and presumptions by others including yourself. As mentioned in my previous post that the only person who can provide authenticity is Guru Sahib himself, not others who are trying to play him.



> Who can deny bhai Nand Lal *singh* ji's writings, he was a contemporary of Guru Gobind Singh.


Our Gurus did, hence they are not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. If you do not believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our only Guru and nothing else, then there is no more argument.



> Rehitname are vital documents no one can dismiss these documents. What we have to do is take out the milk and leave the insects, extract the truth from these documents.


Your above post is nothing but full of assumptions and presumptions. If any Rehatnaama  does not compliment Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru then those Rehatnaamas should be discarded and rejected vehemently by the Panth and by us.



> ਜਪੁ ਜੀ ਜਾਪੁ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਚਿੱਤ ਲਾਇ
> ਕਰਿ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪ
> 
> Above two lines are from bhai Nand Lal Singh ji. In my opinion this is great evidence to support authenticity of sri Jaap Sahib.


Well, let me ask you a question, why didn't the above lines pass the benchmark set by our visionary Gurus in order to be added into Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? 

You are assuming a lot which does not and can not authenticate anything.



> Also Bhai Nand Lal *Singh* ji's writing hold great importance in the panth and bhai Nand Lal *Singh* ji's works can even be recited as per SRM:
> 
> _Article VI _
> 
> _c) In the congragation, Kirtan only of Gurbani (Guru Granth's or Guru Gobind Singh's  hymns) and, for its elaboration, of the compositions of *Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal*, may  be performed._


It seems you have not read what I wrote about SRM and requested you to do. SRM was written long time ago. It needs to be updated. The fact still remains that neither of these authors' poetry was added to our ultimate Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and if we think otherwise then we are not only second guessing our Gurus' vision and decisions but also undermining Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.



> I urge you to read the bani of Gurmukh, Bhai Nand Lal *Singh* ji, so far I haven't found anything anti-gurmat in his writings. His bani is widely accepted in the panth, the only reason their bani is not quoted more is that Sikh's have lost ability to speak/write Farsi.


One more assumption and prejudgement about me from you. How do you know I have not read Bhai Nand Lal ji? And btw, he never took khandei di pahul and became a *Singh. *It is you who has addedthe Khalsa name to his name several times on your own. You are adding things up by making them up.



> If Rahit Nama document (bhai Nand Lal ji)is authentic, which I think it is. Then we can conclude that sri Jaap Sahib is authentic and should be recited.


One more assumption  by you which undermines our Gurus including Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.



> Sarbjit Singh doesn't provide any evidence in the video above, he just seems to think those that read/promote this bani are 'akhauti' and doing 'koor parchar'.


What kind of evidence are you looking for? 



> Another great test is to actually do paath of sri Jaap sahib and sri Choupai sahib.
> 
> Sri Choupai Sahib is great bani. After reciting this bani, I have not an iota of doubt this is sri Dasmesh ji's rachna.


One more assumption again.



> Have you tried actually doing paath of sri Choupai sahib?


Yes, I have.:blueturban:
 In fact I have studied the whole Choupai which is part of so called Dasam Granth. In the latter parts, sexual things are mentioned. We only read just a part of it. The sanitised version.

Have you studied the whole Choupai or have been reciting just the clean version? If you have not, please read  the whole Choupai and share your views with us. 



> For me the personal experience of reciting Jaap sahib and Choupai Sahib are ther greatest proofs for me. Sri Choupai Sahib is addictive, when you do paath once, its hard to imagine not reciting this baani. Same goes for sri Jaap Sahib.


It is your opinion which again undermines our Gurus. Nothing more.



> Also, Tejwant Singh, the ardas we recite everyday, in which document is the dohra recorded?


There is also a thread about Ardaas in this forum in which you will find my comments regarding it.

Hope to hear from you

Thanks for this lovely interaction. I am sure it is a learning experience for both of us and also for other readers of this wonderful forum.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## OSingh (Sep 6, 2011)

"You have not provided any source for authenticity of Jaap."

I have provided sources from bhai Nand Lal Singh and bhai Prahlad Singh, since Guru Gobind Singh ji is not here in deh (body) roop (form) we have to go on other evidence such as documents like rehit name.

Our Guru Sahiban did not include Khalsa Rehit in sri Guru Granth Sahib. Does that mean we should not keep kakars like kirpan or maintain kesh?, of course not! 

For me, Sarbjit Singh has undermined Guru Sahiban by dismissing sri Jaap sahib so easily. He doesn't provide a shred of evidence for his views.

It seems that it will be impossible for me to prove to you that sri Jaap sahib is authentic. In spite of SRM maryada, rehitname of bhai Nand Lal Singh ji and bhai Prahlad Singh ji you have not budged. What more can I do? I don't have the kamai, gunn or jeeevan to summon Guru Gobind Singh ji from Sachkhand so that he can give you these answers in person.

However as Giani Jarnail Singh ji has stated, we have the touchstone of Gurbani, sri Jaap Sahib definitely passes this test.

Also I would like to point out that the ardas we do today, the writings are preserved in manuscripts OUTSIDE of sri Guru Granth Sahib ji:

Bhai Nand Lal Singh ji, Tankahnama:

ਰਾਜ ਕਰੇਗਹ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਆਕੀ ਰਹੇ ਨਾ ਕੋਇ
ਖ਼ਵਾਰ ਹੋਇ ਸਭ ਮਿਲੇਂਗੇ ਬਚੇ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਜੋ ਹੋਇ ॥

and bhai Prahlad singh ji:

ਸਭ ਸਿਖਨ ਕੋ ਬਚਨ ਹੈ, ਗੁਰੂ ਮਾਨੀਅਹੁ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ The command for all the Sikhs is to accept the Granth Sahib as your Guru.

So our famous dohra is preserved in documents OUTSIDE of sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. This means that these documents have importance. We can utilize these documents to come to conclusions.

Using the argument that since we can't ask Guru Sahib in person is not fair and immature in my opinion. Our Guru ji has blessed us with Bibek Budh to decipher truth from falsehood.

Also language used by anti-Dasam group is not right. They use blanket statements such as '****** kavita', 'koor parchar', 'akhauti' which in my opinion which is anti-gurmat. We need to keep in mind so many of our great Gursikhs recited and preached sri Dasam Bani. So before labelling people as 'akhauti' we should think a million times first.

Neverthless, it must be stressed that sri Jaap Sahib and sri Choupai Sahib are mandatory Banis for Amrit Sanchar. Nobody should remove these banis from Amrit Sanchar ceromony as one group already has, shame on them. Also we should be careful in language we use when discussing Dasam Bani, we might be insulting great Gursikhs and most importantly Guru Gobind Singh ji himself.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


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## spnadmin (Sep 6, 2011)

OSingh ji,


Only a question to help me follow this thread. Where did Gyani ji say that "sri Jaap Sahib definitely passes this test."  ???????  As in your quote below




> However as Giani Jarnail Singh ji has stated, we have the touchstone of Gurbani, sri Jaap Sahib definitely passes this test.



I have not been able to find it. Maybe someone could give me the permalink or the post number. I would appreciate it.


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## aristotle (Sep 6, 2011)

OSingh said:


> "You have not provided any source for authenticity of Jaap."
> 
> I have provided sources from bhai Nand Lal Singh and bhai Prahlad Singh, since Guru Gobind Singh ji is not here in deh (body) roop (form) we have to go on other evidence such as documents like rehit name.



First of all, Guru Ji is with us, and will remain always, in the form of Guru Granth Sahib. To negate this fact would be a more serious offence to Sikhi than even apostasy.

Secondly, you are advocating the  'Rehatnamas' the authenticity of which is very much questionable in itself. The Rehatnamas even promote the caste system, Havan-yagyas, Sanatani rituals etc. will you accept even those then?  For an instance,

"ਗੁਰੂ ਕਾ ਸਿੱਖ ਸਹਿਜਧਾਰੀ, *ਰੋਮ ਕੈਂਚੀ ਨਾਲ ਉਤਰਾਵੈ*, ਚਿਹਰਾ ਜ਼ਰੂਰ ਸਾਬਤ ਰਖੇ।"(ਰਹਿਤਨਾਮਾ ਹਜ਼ੂਰੀ, ਚਉਪਾ ਸਿੰਘ)
(A Sehajdhari Sikh, shall cut the hair with scissors, but keep that of the face intact)

"ਜੇ *ਸਰਾਧ* ਆਵਨ ਤਾਂ ਛੱਤੀ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦੁ ਕਰੈ।"(ਸਾਖੀ ਰਹਿਤ ਕੀ, ਭਾਈ ਨੰਦ ਲਾਲ)
(And when cone the Shraadhs, the Sikh shall prepare numerous delicacies)


Thirdly, the Jaap Sahib though respectable to us can still be questioned, for the simple reason that it is not a part of the Guru Granth Sahib, our 'ONLY' Guru. Sikhism does not discourage discussions, it is a very modern religion and we should broaden our mindsets to match the horizons of Sikhism. The 'references' you have provided regarding the Jaap Sahib are not even references at all, since they solely rely on personal accounts of people, that too of questionable origin.

Fourthly, Using the Jaap Sahib as a tool you cannot tell the Sikhs to worship the Dasam Granth. In some 'birs' of Dasam Granth, Jaap Sahib and Zafarnama dont even form a part of the draft, and where they are, the sequence of verses is hotch-potched in many 'birs'. Would you call the Dasam Granth authentic?
I dont feel approprite to pollute this metaphysical discussion by giving p****graphic and mythological examples from the Krishnavtar, Rudravtar, Dattatreya Avatar, Charitropakhyan, Brahmavtar, Chandi Charitra(I and II) etc. which combined form the major part of the Dasam. Authentic-looking compositionbs like Akal Ustat, Jaap Sahib, Zafarnama (without the p****graphic Hikayataan) dont form even 10% of the Dasam.


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## Ishna (Sep 7, 2011)

Admin ji



> However as Giani Jarnail Singh ji has stated, we have the touchstone of Gurbani, sri Jaap Sahib definitely passes this test.



I think OSingh ji may have meant it to be read as "Gyani ji said the touchstone is Gurbani" (comma) and "OSingh ji is saying that by using it as touchstone Jaap passes the test".

Not that Gyani ji said the entire sentence.

OSingh ji please forgive me if I've misinterpreted.


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## OSingh (Sep 7, 2011)

Sorry, I have been misundertood. My writing skills are not that good.

Ishna ji is right.

*"*_First of all, Guru Ji is with us, and will remain always, in the form of Guru Granth Sahib. To negate this fact would be a more serious offence to Sikhi than even apostasy._*"*

Where I have I stated we should negate Gurbani? Who are you calling an apostate? Please be more clear, If you think i am an apostate please explain why.

*"*_Secondly, you are advocating the 'Rehatnamas' the authenticity of which is very much questionable in itself. The Rehatnamas even promote the caste system, Havan-yagyas, Sanatani rituals etc. will you accept even those then?_*"*

Please read my post Aristotle ji. Their is a saying in Panjabi that if insects get into a jug of milk, you do not throw away the whole jug of milk, you get rid of the insects. I have clearly stated, content in the rehitname that is in line with Gurbani we can accept and anything that goes against Gurbani we reject.

Bhai Prahlad Singh ji's Rehitname has part our ardas preserved in wriiten form, this is very important. This proves that rehitname has content which is in line with Gurmat. This makes it an important historical document that we can reference.

*"*_Fourthly, Using the Jaap Sahib as a tool you cannot tell the Sikhs to worship the Dasam Granth._*"*

Nowhere have I stated that we should 'worship Dasam Granth'. Please do not make accusations like this. I am 100% *against* parkash of Dasam Granth parallell with sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

For me bhai Nand Lal Singh ji is an excellent source as is bhai Prahlad Singh ji rehitname, which also contains part of our Ardas. This is important.

SRM committee came to conclusion that sri Jaap Sahib and sri Choupai Sahib are *authentic* and *mandatory* for amrit sanchar and nitnem(sri Jaap Sahib). Anybody who goes against this and removes this bani from Amrit Sanchar is an *apostate*. One group has already conducted an amrit sanchar without sri Dasam Bani's, we as panth should be united against this.

Nobody is denying that sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is our Guru as bhai Prahlad Singh ji's rehitnama states:

*ਸਭ ਸਿਖਨ ਕੋ ਬਚਨ ਹੈ, ਗੁਰੂ ਮਾਨੀਅਹੁ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ* - _The command for all the Sikhs is to accept the Granth Sahib as your Guru._

Guru Granth Sahib ji is our Guru. However, Satguru ji decided to include his bani for amrit sanchar ceromony and nitnem bani. However, as I cannot summon Pita ji, Guru Gobind Singh from Sachkhand to give us the reason why they did this, we can utilize other manuscripts to help us come to conclusions.

It is not a crime to utlilize other manucripts. So much great material is available in various janamsakhi's, rehitname etc. We must take what is Gurmat and discard the Manmat.

Otherwise we would be discarded great sayings from our Guru, such as (bhai Nand Lal Singh ji's, TankahNama):

*ਦੋਹਰਾ
ਰਾਜ ਕਰੇਗਹ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਆਕੀ ਰਹੇ ਨਾ ਕੋਇ* _The Khalsa will rule and the rebels will be eliminated_,
*ਖ਼ਵਾਰ ਹੋਇ ਸਭ ਮਿਲੇਂਗੇ ਬਚੇ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਜੋ ਹੋਇ* ॥_ All will be obliged to join and only those who surrender will survive._

and

*ਸਵਾ ਲਾਖ ਸੇ ਏੇਕ ਲੜਾਊੂਂ*
_(I will) make the one combat a hundred and twenty-five thousand._

All these great bachans of our Pita ji are preserved outside of Guru Granth Sahib. If I believe in these bachans, if i read the dohra, does that make me an apostate? 

Also Khalsa Rehit is not stated in Guru Granth Sahib.

Rabb Rakhe


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## OSingh (Sep 7, 2011)

Ishna ji

This is not Gurbani.
The English translation is not very good. The above translation, especially the second line is way off. I hope sangat does not have any doubts regarding Dohra. One day Khalsa will have Raaj (kingdom) in this world, this is bachan from Guru Gobind Singh ji.
The Dohra are actually words direct from Guru Gobind Singh ji, they have been preserved in bhai Prahlad Singh ji's rehitnama, bhai Nand Lal Singh ji's Tankhah Nama and by Giani Gian Singh's, Panth Parkash.
The pavittar bachan to accept Guru Granth Sahib as our Guru is in the Dohra. If we question the Dohra then we are questioning the foundation of Sikhi - shabad Guru, sri Guru Granth Sahib being our Guru. I believe Guru Gobind Singh uttered the Dohra in their final days at Hazoor Sahib when passing Gurgaddi to Guru Granth Sahib ji. I believe it was the Namdhari's who first questioned the Dohra, for obvious reasons.
Lets not get off topic, this thread is about authenticity sri Jaap Sahib and not Dohra (I am not aware of any doubts regarding Dohra, it is accepted and recited by Sikh Panth)..
The point is that we have material outside of Gurbani that can be utilized and is utilized. 


Rabb Rakhe


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## aristotle (Sep 7, 2011)

> It is not a crime to utlilize other manucripts. So much great material  is available in various janamsakhi's, rehitname etc. We must take what  is Gurmat and discard the Manmat.


Sir, 
I didn't mean any offence by my post. The thing I wanted to highlight was that we don't have any credible reference to support the Jaap Sahib as an authentic Bani, let alone its being Guru's own composition. All we have are Rehatnamas or Bhai Nand Lal's Bani. I don't think we would be able to defend it when in discussion with a third party.
Even the _Lag-matras_ of Jaap Sahib are different in different Gutkas, the fact is even acknowledged by the SGPC. How can we authenticate a Bani sans a set original draft??
There are many who try to advocate the Dasam Granth citing the Jaap Sahib and Chaupaee.
And about the Chaupaee, there are many Chaupaees in the Dasam, are there any pre-SRM (I mean the time before the SRM was drafted) references for the Chaupaee to be recited as the Nitnem??
Any references or leads could prove very useful in this regard.


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## spnadmin (Sep 7, 2011)

Ishna said:


> Admin ji
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Many thanks. It makes a difference. As Gyani  ji is a giani, his words carry weight. And I would like all to be clear as to what he is actually endorsing and the interpretations of others.


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## spnadmin (Sep 7, 2011)

OSingh said:


> Ishna ji
> 
> 
> Lets not get off topic, this thread is about authenticity sri Jaap Sahib and not Dohra (I am not aware of any doubts regarding Dohra, it is accepted and recited by Sikh Panth)..
> ...




Wrong on this point. 

:angryadminkaur:
This thread is about the kathas of Professor Sarbjit Singh. It is not about Jap Sahib, though the topic is related and cannot escape being mentioned and discussed. Let us discuss the professor in the main. Thanks. :angryadminkaur:


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## OSingh (Sep 7, 2011)

Aristotle ji

I too hope I have not offended you in my post, apologies if I have.

"_And about the Chaupaee, there are many Chaupaees in the Dasam, are there any pre-SRM (I mean the time before the SRM was drafted) references for the Chaupaee to be recited as the Nitnem??Any references or leads could prove very useful in this regard._2

Choupai sahib was definitely recited before SRM. I will try to get references. SRM would not just have introduced these banis into Amrit Sanchar and Nitnem if they were not already being recited. Gurmukhs and SRM committee members such as bhai Vir Singh, Kahn Singh Nabha, Akali Kaur Singh etc all recited sri Choupai Sahib and sri Jaap Sahib.

As for which Choupai Sahib to recite , we should recite the panthic version in SRM:
_"__Meditating on Nam (Divine Substance) and Scriptures
Article IV _
_ii) The Benti Chaupai of the tenth Guru (beginning "hamri karo hath dai rachha" and ending with "dusht dokh te leho bachai"_

As for Jaap Sahib:

"_Even the Lag-matras of Jaap Sahib are different in different Gutkas, the fact is even acknowledged by the SGPC._"

This is not a valid argument. Differences in lag-matra are not limited to Jaap Sahib. Their are differences in lag-matra in different saroops of Guru Granth Sahib. The fault lies with the writer of the saroop and not Guru Sahib. The lag-matra were standardised by comparing puratan (old) granths of Guru Granth Sahib, however their are still faults that need urgent rectification. Just because of a few differences in lag-matra we cannot just dismiss Jaap Sahib otherwise we can use same argument for our current Guru. 

"How can we authenticate a Bani sans a set original draft??"

We do not even have the original Damdami Saroop (Gurgaddi was given to this saroop at Hazur Sahib by Guru Gobind Singh) in our possesion. Just because we do not have the original granth in our possession this does not mean we dismiss the whole granth. The best method is to collect as many old saroops as possible and compare the bani between them as was done by SGPC for Guru Granth Sahib ji. Joginder Singh Talwara of Akhand Kirtani Jatha spent many years doing research but SGPC did not listen to him. 

"_The thing I wanted to highlight was that we don't have any credible reference to support the Jaap Sahib as an authentic Bani, let alone its being Guru's own composition. All we have are Rehatnamas or Bhai Nand Lal's Bani. I don't think we would be able to defend it when in discussion with a third party._"

For me sources from bhai Nand Lal Singh ji bani is a good credible source. SRM comittee, SRM maryada, AKJ, Taksal, kathavachaks like Pinderpal Singh, Sant Singh Maskeen......................the list goes on and on. The majority of the panth supports this bani whether they be from a taksal, jatha and non-affilliated Gursikhs like Pinderpal Singh ji and Prof Sahib Singh ji. 

You ask  for 'credible reference'. What is credible reference? Bhai Nand Lal Singh ji's bani can even be recited in kirtan as per SRM. Then their are rehitname, then we can look into jeevans (lives) of various Gursikhs. If this is not enough I dont know what is. 

SPN admin, it was you that actually posted the video on Jaap Sahib, otherwise I would not have discussed sri Jaap Sahib. This will be my last post on sri Jaap Sahib, no need to delete.

Rabb Rakhe


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## spnadmin (Sep 7, 2011)

I will be moving several posts to a new thread unless we return to the Professor as the main topic. Please make connections for readers. Otherwise a new thread will be needed.


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## Archived_Member16 (Sep 11, 2011)

*A MUST WATCH VIDEO: Bhai Sarabjit Singh Dhunda*

*A MUST WATCH VIDEO:

Bhai sarabjit singh dhunda 30 july 2011 part 2 of 5

Link:* http://youtu.be/85wbUt3xHVM

This article has been merged with an existing thread. Thanks, spnadmin


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Sep 11, 2011)

*Re: A MUST WATCH VIDEO: Bhai sarabjit singh dhunda*

So true.


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## HSM (Nov 22, 2012)

Absolutly wrong you are..
Prof. Sarbjit Singh Dhunda is one of the greatest scholars we have in our day and age who is actually spreading the true meaning and defination of SIKHI. As you quoted 'Prof is against reciting the Guru's name', he is not. Instead he is saying that by just reciting the name will not bring any revolution in your life unless you bring that name in your everyday life, not like a lot of so called religious sants/or general people who keep saying Ram-Ram/Waheguru-Waheguru but are corrupt in their everyday dealings in their day's work. Read in Shri Guru Granth Sahib,"Ram Ram karta sab jag phire, Ram na paya jaye". Prof is one of the most logical person I have listened to in my life, who actually makes sense. People who say you dont bring logic into religion I would like to remind them that Sikhi was created out of the great logic that Guru Nanak Ji refused to wear the brahmin's Janeyuu. And you should understand this belief is a total nonsense that one would meet total salvation by just reciting God's name but without changing their everyday behaviour or without having an honest and generous lifestyle. If somebody believes in such a thing and still call himself/herself a Sikh I pity that person's ignorance. I am proud to say that the religion I believe in is the most practical religion/belief by following which one can bring a great revolution in one's life and the life after that revolution is the true Salvation our Sikhism teaches us about.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 22, 2012)

It is surrising to note the reference of Bhai Nanad Lal ji as Bhai Nand Lal Singh Ji.
Bhai Nand Lal ji never had taken "Khande Dee Pahul" to become Khalsaa and be refered as SINGH.

Such seems to be the latest injection which is not true at all. How it is not that 
the Document is full with such injectios only.?

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## SaintSoldier1699 (Nov 22, 2012)

Prof Sarbjit Singh has not denied that we shouldn't read Jaap Sahib, he is per SRM.  The video made with someone pointing at a Gutka is not verified and even he says was fabricated to defame him. 

I think everyone needs to take a step back which would let the issue cool down a little and give breathing space to all the hot heat thats been created since Prof Darshan Singh brought up the Dasam Granth issue.

The average Sikh was not even aware of a Dasam Granth - mainly because it was something that existed in Nihang circles and Taksals.  Our so called leadership does not have the capabilities to deal with any of these "tough" issues as its inclined to please the masses and politician and dera's because they hold all the power; moneywise and peoplewise.

Average joes like me who haven't even completed a full reading of our official Guru Granth Sahib, are now discussing a whole different granth and are getting spammed by messages saying we should read it as its official and we need it to become a "Warrior".  Furthering us away from the basic of goal of understanding our official Guru Granth sahib.

I think the message is out there that this is an issue, we are not going to get closure, if anything there will most likely be action to formalise this "Dasam Granth" as the Akal Takht jathedar himself believes in the Saint comes from Guru Granth Sahib and Soldier from Dasam Granth (which in itself is a fallacy as there were numerous warriors before Guru Gobind Singh Ji even start writing).  

Prof Sarbjit Singh should continue work to get the true message out of Guru Granth Sahib as he has been and deter from any Anti Dasam Granth parchar until the time is right for the panth to sort this out sensibly.  Because all this marketing against him is so the so called jathedars will "excommunicate" him to stop his parchar full stop - leading on to manipulation of Gurmat Gian College and other missionary institutes.  Prof Darshan Singh was reasonably unaffected by the excommunication because he lives in Canada which gives him leverage to continue to do parchar.


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## Abneet (Jun 29, 2014)

This should set it once for all on all views of Dhunda. Take a look.

http://www.panthic.org/articles/5488


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 29, 2014)

Abneet said:


> This should set it once for all on all views of Dhunda. Take a look.
> 
> http://www.panthic.org/articles/5488



This is JUST ONE of the many many instances of how this so called Panthic.Org operates..its the most untruthful sites...

http://www.khalsanews.org/newspics/...lot to defame Shivteg Singh - KS Bathinda.htm


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 29, 2014)

Peddling LIES is their Forte..if they cant touch some one like Dhunda on "personal behaviour" then they use different methods..and IF they can fabricate "personal scum" about Shivtegh Singh..then they use that method...against Prof Darshan Singh they fabricated and faked DVDs and Cut  and paste out of context phrases..etc etc...

TRUTH SACH..SATNAAM is a word the Panthic.org guys never heard of...

http://www.khalsanews.org/newspics/...lot to defame Shivteg Singh - KS Bathinda.htm


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 29, 2014)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> It is surrising to note the reference of Bhai Nanad Lal ji as Bhai Nand Lal Singh Ji.
> Bhai Nand Lal ji never had taken "Khande Dee Pahul" to become Khalsaa and be refered as SINGH.
> 
> Such seems to be the latest injection which is not true at all. How it is not that
> ...



Bagga ji..these people are going overboard..he he...They even made an IMPOSTER who is ANONYMOUS and a FAKE..an entity who didnt write his name to his Vaar  written after Guru Gobind Singh Jis time.....but ADDED it to the 40 Vaars of Bhai Gurdass who llived in Guiru Arjun jis time...as Bhai GURDASS "SINGH"....can you beleive THAT ??? IF Sikhs can be as wild as that...its easy to beleive they woudl love to have Nanad Lal "Singh" too..and Bhai GHAIYAH "SINGH..etc etc....as IF every SIKH today is a "SINGH" ???? why would it be different back then ?? why would everyone be a SINGH ??


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## Abneet (Jun 30, 2014)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Peddling LIES is their Forte..if they cant touch some one like Dhunda on "personal behaviour" then they use different methods..and IF they can fabricate "personal scum" about Shivtegh Singh..then they use that method...against Prof Darshan Singh they fabricated and faked DVDs and Cut  and paste out of context phrases..etc etc...
> 
> TRUTH SACH..SATNAAM is a word the Panthic.org guys never heard of...
> 
> http://www.khalsanews.org/newspics/...lot to defame Shivteg Singh - KS Bathinda.htm



Where did Dhunda get his parchar training from?


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## Harry Haller (Jun 30, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Where did Dhunda get his parchar training from?



life, rather than rhetoric


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 30, 2014)

I would rather ask..Where did Panthic.Org get its LIES from ??...LIES in Dhundas case. Darshan Singh Ragis case, Shivteg Singhs case..and many many more..( too many to list actually). Theres a Punjabi saying..to test if the Daal is cooked..just take out ONE danna and squash it...if its cooked the danna will eb squashy..if its HARD..then the daal is kuchee...uncooked...the Panthic.org daal is Kachee all the way...in fact its full of KURRKURROOS ( dannas that can never get cooked)..


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 30, 2014)

Abneet said:


> This should set it once for all on all views of Dhunda. Take a look.
> 
> http://www.panthic.org/articles/5488




Abneet ji,

Guru fateh.

Is this your opinion based on this one lousy, biased anti Gurmat interview  or have you had preconceived bias against Dhunda for some other reasons? 

Please clarify.

I have no idea if you are aware of this but Panthic.org and many other sites related to it are for the Prakash of the so called Dasam Granth along with the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru which is a NO, NO.

I have read the whole interview which is one sided and biased and full of gotcha attitude which is against Sikhi values because that makes the interviewers dishonest which is very clear from it.

Here is part of it:



> The questions posed to Sarbjit Dhunda covered several topics, including:
> 
> Gurbani/Kirtan Recitation per Sikh Rehat Maryada
> Naam Simran-Abhyaas
> ...



In the other thread, "Is this the end", you suggest that changes should be made in the SRM and here you want no changes as far as the interview with Dhunda is concerned.  Why these doublespeak/standard on your part?

So, please elaborate what is your real position?

Following is your post about it:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/42426-is-this-the-end-5.html#post198226



> Definitely changes are needed in Sikh history. One is needed right now!



Let me ask you the same questions:

1. Please explain Gurbani/Kirtan Recitation per Sikh Rehat Maryada as you understand it? 

If one needs changes to the SRM as you said before with which I happen to agree, then what is your point here?

2. Naam Simran-Abhyaas

Please explain the modus operandi of the above according to your own understanding.

3.Nitnem Banees

If SRM should be changed as we both agree, then shouldn't we also have a new look at the Nitnem Baanis which are not part of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru?

If Guru Gobind ji had recited “his baanis” , during Khandei di pahul, then the logical conclusion is that he must have added to them to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as he did his dad’s, our 9th Guru?

Why this discrepancy and undermining of our 10th Guru who did so much for our Sikhi?
4. Association with Ex-communicated individuals

This is again the changes of SRM that you want. Akaal Takhat has  ex-communicated the Jathedar of Patna Sahib for bigamy bit they still have association with him?

Why this hypocricy on the part of Jathedars and do you agree with it?

5. Sri Akal Takht Sahib HukamNamays and Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s Banee.

I have asked the first part above and the second part still remains unanswered.  Who except Guru Gobind Singh ji knows which is his poetry and why he didn't  add it to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so it could be called Gurbani.

About Dhunda,I personally find him a very intelligent, pragmatic and well thought Sikh. Many have the right to disagree. The Dasam Granth proponents do not like his stance for the reasons given above and this stance is unSikhi one.

In my opinion, it is the duty of every Sikh to question the past rituals and other things that do not jive with the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Sikhi was founded on this. If Guru Nanak had not questioned the significance of Janeio to the Pandit, we all would be still wearing one and also throwing water towards the Sun and  would be performing many other nonsensical anti Sikhi rituals

Nothing is etched in stone except the Gurbani in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which is not debatable.  But the rest is all debatable and it should be debated quite often in order to improve because we learn new things from Gurbani everyday provided we are its practitioners, not parrots who chant some mantras mindlessly.

Lastly, about the SRM, I wrote the following about the changes many years ago.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/14705-thoughts-on-the-sikh-rehat-maryada.html

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Abneet (Jun 30, 2014)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> I would rather ask..Where did Panthic.Org get its LIES from ??...LIES in Dhundas case. Prof Darshan Singh Ji Khalsas case, Shivteg Singhs case..and many many more..( too many to list actually). Theres a Punjabi saying..to test if the Daal is cooked..just take out ONE danna and squash it...if its cooked the danna will eb squashy..if its HARD..then the daal is kuchee...uncooked...the Panthic.org daal is Kachee all the way...in fact its full of KURRKURROOS ( dannas that can never get cooked)..



Gyani ji, I never did a background check of Panthic.org, but could you tell me where did Dhunda get his training just curious?


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## Abneet (Jun 30, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abneet ji,
> 
> Guru fateh.
> 
> ...



Again this is the first time I am hearing about fake cases by Panthic.org. I have to look into that. On the topic of DG, I am not for or against the prakash of DG. I won't have any say in the DG but I do believe its Guru Gobind Singh's Bani.

1) Kirtan from GGS,DG, or works of Bhai Nand Lal ji's or Bhai Gurdas Ji can be only performed in gurdwara from what I know. I believe that AKJ kirtan is fine. Others have different opinions on them but thats mine.

The topic of Raagmala I am not very educated about but there more concerning issues of the SRM to look at. If you can explain your view on Raagmala I'd be interested to know or is your view in your SRM thread.

2) Vaheguru Mantar or Mool Mantar for Naam Japna. Dhunda who I believe to see the view of Naam Simran as pointless. Nothing should be changed on this topic. More Sikhs are looking at this practice to be useless but those who practice it know the importance.

3) Nitnem Banis today are fine with me but is there a change needed to read specific Banis each day? Nitnem is the bare minimum for Sikhs. We can do as much Bani as we want. If Sikhs want nitnem consisted of Banis only from GGS then I am fine with that. Today many are arguing over Jaap Sahib but to me I'll read it for my own benefit as I believe it is written by Guru Gobind Singh.

4) I think I knew of that meetings with ex-communicated individuals. Look I see the Akal Takht Jathedar not doing the right things for the Panth at the moment. In the future if changes do occur to the SRM, then I would agree that no Sikh should communicate with excommunicated individuals. But are you sure this isn't in the maryada already?

5) Every gurdwara has to follow Akal Takht Hukamnamas. In order for this to work there has to be a Sikh takht or lets say in this case a council in each big country of Sikhs to make sure that things are running properly in gurdwaras. This is a plan that is currently being decided by Sikhs in UK and I have just a little idea how its going to work. On Guru Gobind Singh Ji not adding it to GGS, there isn't a reason. Dasam Granth is essentially for the Khalsa. To me Guru Gobind Singh Ji made this the arm also so Sarbloh Granth and GGS is the body. This is how I view it as. 

A meeting in the future with Sikh leaders who have no political ties and have only Sikh interests only for the Panth should be remodeling the SRM. A leader from taksal, akj, and nihungs have to be in that meeting in order to have combination of interests for the whole panth. After the remodeling is done, there is one meryada once for all. Now the chances of this happening is very low, but there is hope.

Additional changes that need to happen is the definition of a Sikh. Nowadays we have sub-Sikh names like sehajdhari and keshdhari.

Also in the meryada I would like to see a change on how Gurdwara politics and committees are made and picked. If a Punj Pyare would be a good choice for committee rather than just big moneyman Singhs who have no love for Sikhi.Also parchar should be #1 aim in a gurdwara. 

To me no discussion on DG are allowed but it has already been declared officially Dasvee Patshaah's Bani. Now we can look back when they declared it and see how they did it and who was involved. Then questions might pop up and need to be answered. I am currently sticking with learning from GGS but will do full Nitnem with Guru Gobind Singh Ji's banis.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 30, 2014)

Abneet Singh ji,

Guru Fateh,



> Again this is the first time I am hearing about fake cases by Panthic.org. I have to look into that. On the topic of DG, I am not for or against the prakash of DG. I won't have any say in the DG but I do believe its Guru Gobind Singh's Bani.



Have you studied the DG? If you have, then you should be aware of its erotic contents that we cannot talk about in front of our mothers, sisters, daughters and other ladies. From your response above, it implies that you have. We should seriously discuss this later after your response because it is very important as you claim that you would not mind the Prakash of the Pornographic contents of DG along with SGGS, our only Guru.
Will wait for your response so we can discuss this further as it is a serious Panthic matter.



> 1) Kirtan from GGS,DG, or works of Bhai Nand Lal ji's or Bhai Gurdas Ji can be only performed in gurdwara from what I know. I believe that AKJ kirtan is fine. Others have different opinions on them but thats mine.



When you say Kirtan of DG can be performed in the Gurdwara, are you  implying that all the pornographic stuff in the DG can be sung in front of the ladies that are related to you and me? Are you serious? Are you sure you have studied the DG?



> The topic of Raagmala I am not very educated about but there more concerning issues of the SRM to look at. If you can explain your view on Raagmala I'd be interested to know or is your view in your SRM thread.



Regarding Raagmala, I have my doubts because many claim that it has all the Raags in it which is not true and secondly, no one knows who wrote it and most of it does not make sense.



> 2) Vaheguru Mantar or Mool Mantar for Naam Japna. Dhunda who I believe to see the view of Naam Simran as pointless. Nothing should be changed on this topic. More Sikhs are looking at this practice to be useless but those who practice it know the importance.



It depends how you define by Naam Japna. I am against parroting too. Jap ji teaches us not to parrot but:* “Gaviei, Sunihei, Munn Rakhei Bhao” which is true Naam Simran and we are commanded to obey that. In other words, Singing can move one from the inside, Listening can make us grasp the message and Practicing the teachings of SGGS after listening sends us to the Gurmat Marg, not parroting some words for hours which is meaningless and an insult to Gurbani, our only anchor.*



> 3) Nitnem Banis today are fine with me but is there a change needed to read specific Banis each day? Nitnem is the bare minimum for Sikhs. We can do as much Bani as we want. If Sikhs want nitnem consisted of Banis only from GGS then I am fine with that. Today many are arguing over Jaap Sahib but to me I'll read it for my own benefit as I believe it is written by Guru Gobind Singh.



Anything is bare minimum if we do not make it our second nature by practicing it in our daily life. It matters naught how many nitnems. Japjis and other paaths one does.



> 4) I think I knew of that meetings with ex-communicated individuals. Look I see the Akal Takht Jathedar not doing the right things for the Panth at the moment. In the future if changes do occur to the SRM, then I would agree that no Sikh should communicate with excommunicated individuals. But are you sure this isn't in the maryada already?



Can you please show me from the SGGS where ex-communication is allowed? If you refuse to communicate with another ‘Sikh’ a learner, a teacher, a seeker, then how would you call yourself a Sikh?
Why is the bigamist Jathedar stiil in Patna Sahib as he was “ex-communicated”?



> 5) Every gurdwara has to follow Akal Takht Hukamnamas.



What kinds of Hukumnaamas are you trying to imply? For example no chairs  for the handicap or old people for Langar or in the Diwan Hall?

Why is there no handicap entrance in the Harmander Sahib whereas we have to have them in the Gurdwaras outside? Don’t those people deserve to enter? Where is the Hukumnaanas for that? This shows how Hukumnaamas are futile and full of Me-ism rather than Gurmat values.



> In order for this to work there has to be a Sikh takht or lets say in this case a council in each big country of Sikhs to make sure that things are running properly in gurdwaras. This is a plan that is currently being decided by Sikhs in UK and I have just a little idea how its going to work.



Can you please elaborate what is happening in the UK? 
I agree that Sikhs in diaspora who finance most of the SGPC  must be in part of any Panthic discussion.

And do you know that on SGPC site there in “Online Seva” with your credit card? 
What SRM does the above belong to?



> On Guru Gobind Singh Ji not adding it to GGS, there isn't a reason. Dasam Granth is essentially for the Khalsa. To me Guru Gobind Singh Ji made this the arm also so Sarbloh Granth and GGS is the body. This is how I view it as.



What do you mean by the above that there is no reason when SGGS is our only Guru?

Please define Khalsa if you do not mind.
Now it seems that you are making things up or some kathavachak must have taught you that. 
Who says what is an arm and a leg when SGGS is our only Guru?



> A meeting in the future with Sikh leaders who have no political ties and have only Sikh interests only for the Panth should be remodeling the SRM. A leader from taksal, akj, and nihungs have to be in that meeting in order to have combination of interests for the whole panth. After the remodeling is done, there is one meryada once for all. Now the chances of this happening is very low, but there is hope.



FYI, Politics and Sikhi go hand in hand because Sikhi is all about equality which we call democracy unlike Islam which is anarchy. Panj Pyaras are the sign of democracy.



> Additional changes that need to happen is the definition of a Sikh. Nowadays we have sub-Sikh names like sehajdhari and keshdhari.



A Sikh is a learner, a student, a seeker. Sikhi was 250 years old before Khandei de pahul and many were non keshdahris. No one knows if Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Gurdas were or not and we know that the former did not take Khandei de pahul.



> Also in the meryada I would like to see a change on how Gurdwara politics and committees are made and picked. If a Punj Pyare would be a good choice for committee rather than just big moneyman Singhs who have no love for Sikhi.Also parchar should be #1 aim in a gurdwara.



I am sure you are aware that  there is no clergy in Sikhi for some reason. Let’s not undermine the thought process of our visionary Gurus. How do you plan to finance the Gurdwaras’ affairs without money and how about if those Panj Pyaras are Moneyman Singhs? Do you object to that?

FYI, Khalsa Credit Union was founded in Vancouver BC by 100 Amritdhari money men putting their money in it and it became a success with the Punjabi speaking tellers. As a result all Canadian banks have Punjabi speaking tellers now. I have no idea what you have against money. You would need money to have a computer to interact here to say the least.



> To me no discussion on DG are allowed but it has already been declared officially Dasvee Patshaah's Bani. Now we can look back when they declared it and see how they did it and who was involved. Then questions might pop up and need to be answered. I am currently sticking with learning from GGS but will do full Nitnem with Guru Gobind Singh Ji's banis.



I am a bit confused by your above assertion. It seems that you are giving me second hand information without studying the DG. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks for the interesting and educating interaction.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Abneet (Jul 1, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abneet Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh,
> 
> ...



I have no right to say anything about the DG as I am no expert on it. But your right there are is porno content but is there message behind it all? It has to be looked at first and analyzed just because it has sexual content doesn't mean its pointless right? There has to be some understanding behind it. I have no idea myself about it you may have some info about it. GGS is our only Guru indeed but again who put the sexual content there and what is it depicting?

Kirtan is Kirtan. Of course if Akal Takht wants too they can take out that part in gurdwaras. It may be uncomfortable for audience though. Again I believe DG is Dasvee Patshahi Bani. Have I analyzed it? No. If im wrong and some Hindus screwed up the DG than I'll be doomed for saying that but as of right now I support DG as Guru ji's Bani. 

 Sikhs these days are seeing the practice pointless and would rather read Bani which is fine. Naam Simran shouldn't disappear though. There is enough evidence ,well to me, that Naam Simran does have benefits in one's live practicing Naam.

There should be no talks with ex-communicated unless they want to be forgiven and join the panth back in the future. They have chosen that path to destroy Sikhi or leave the Panth. They get the punishment they deserve depending on the situation but shouldn't be shunned forever.

On the topic of Akal Takht hukamnamas, yes there should be chairs for handicapped only. Not for old people who can sit down but are not willing too. Sitting down on the floor with everyone else has a special significance. But thats my opinion though. Also for Anand Karaj too, gurdwara committees are just making money with interfaith marriages that already go against Akal Takht. It is getting out of hand now that no one can do anything.

Hukamnamas are Hukamnamas. But the Panth needs to get together if Hukamnamas start to become out of control just in case in the future it happens.

I have no idea about the handicap situation in Harmandar Sahib. Never thought of it before but it is a good idea that SGPC should consider but they probably won't give a damn to be honest.

There is a party in Southhall Gurdwara that are trying to win the gurdwara elections. The party is called "Tera Panth Vasse". What they are trying to do is change how gurdwaras are running and make it a better environment for learning, english kathas, and just parchar. What it can do is strengthen the sangat's knowledge about Sikhi and Gurmat values. They got this idea from Calgary Sikh Youth who are currently doing this in their own gurdwaras. What they also want to do is instead of a committee you have a Punj Pyare in charge. There is a vid if you want to see how gurdwara will be running and the money collections and all the other issues everyone is concerned about. 


Khalsa is pure. Khalsa is Akal Purakh Di Fauj. Khalsa also land directed by a government. Guru Gobind Singh Ji said himself that the Khalsa is God's Army and that God wanted him to start the Khalsa.

There was amrit before Guru Gobind Singh ji. Amrit started from Guru Nanak and it was called charan amrit.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 1, 2014)

Abneet ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> I have no right to say anything about the DG as I am no expert on it. But your right there are is porno content but is there message behind it all? It has to be looked at first and analyzed just because it has sexual content doesn't mean its pointless right? There has to be some understanding behind it. I have no idea myself about it you may have some info about it. GGS is our only Guru indeed but again who put the sexual content there and what is it depicting?



I am sorry to say that you have not been honest with me about your knowledge of DG which is a shame. You have been defending DG like an idol but have no idea what is in it. You gave everyone the impression here that you had deep knowledge about it, but now you have shown your true colours which are fading with the false claims you have tried to put forward.

How can you defend a thing that you have no idea about what it is all about and what its contents are?

Some people buy the book by looking at its cover but you bought the DG Lock, Stock and Barrel just by its name and hear says by those who want to creep  hindutva into Sikhi and you are doing their job for them.

You also write above:



> It has to be looked at first and analyzed just because it has sexual content doesn't mean its pointless right? There has to be some understanding behind it.



What? “sexual content doesn't mean its pointless right”?

How about genitalia and puubic hair and a lot more pornography than it meets the literal eye in the DG? 
You are right, it is not pointless but rather quite pointed.

As you are for Naam Simran, would you like to repeat  these terms for 30 minutes  from the DG for that?

FYI, DG is filled with stories of Hindutva and its mythologies which have nothing to do with Sikhi and its Gurmat values. Please do not degrade Guru Gobind Singh ji who gave so much to the panth by crediting him with this utter nonsensical pornography.

Many claim that Hindus wrote this on purpose to create divisions in Sikhi and they grab people like you with their bait and prey on you by trying to tell you it is OK to have pornography in the DG because Guru Gobind Singh wanted it like that and you not only buy this nonsense but embrace it, which is a shame indeed.

I am appalled at your blind faith on some sant babas or so called snake oil salesmen who call themselves kathavachaks who brain wash people  and the worse part of all this is that those people take it as a mithai and call it yummy.

It seems you put more faith on these sants than on yourself and in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Rest of your post can wait till you are honest enough and study DG rather than defending it like an idol worshipper without knowing what it consists of. I had no idea that you were just a pretender who has been defending the DG blindly for the reasons only known to you.

You can study it here right on SPN then you will be able to discuss it after you know what it says. 

This is not the way in gurmat, and please do not do that to yourself in the future. 

Tejwant Singh


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## Abneet (Jul 1, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abneet ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale says, "consider him a Nastik (athiest) and a Bemukh (traitor) one who does not believe in this (Bachittar Natak) from the rasna of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib.

Many Sikhs like him did kathas on DG. There is enough evidence from many great Sikh leaders supporting the Dasam Granth to consider it Dasvee Patshahi's Bani. I will take his say on the DG. If you want to argue on the DG don't pick me, pick someone who has well studied the DG. Again I will take his say on the DG. The biggest Sikh figures in our History too have supported DG. They were well educated in it. 

All these people supported DG. Sure why wouldn't i say it is Dasvee Patshaah's Bani. 
Bhai Gurbachan Singh – Akaal Takhat Sahib.
Baba Nand Singh Ji Nanaksar
Bhai Vir Singh
Baba Keertan Singh Tarana Dal
Bhai Balwant Singh – Takhat Damdama Sahib.
Sant Ishar Singh Rara Sahib
Akali Kaur Singh
Baba Prem Singh Buddha Dal
Bhai Tarlochan Singh – Tkhat Kesgahar Sahib.
Sant Jawala Singh Harkowal
Prof. Teja Singh
Baba Nihal Singh Harian Belan Tarana Dal
Bhai Iqbal Singh – Takhat Patna Sahib.
Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindra
Bhai Randhir Singh
Baba Makahn Singh Tarana Dal
Bhai Kulwant Singh – Takhat Hazoor Sahib.
Sant Attar Singh Mastwana
Sardar Kapoor Singh
Baba Joginder Singh Buddha Dal
Sant Harnam Singh Rampur
Bhai Kaan Singh Nabha
Baba Daya Singh Bidhi Chand Dal
Sant Ishar Singh Nanaksar
Bhai Santokh Singh
Baba Avatar Singh Bidhi Chand Dal
Sant Kartar Singh Bhindra
Sant Singh Maskeen
Panth dhay Shaheed :
Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindra
Giani Pinderpal Singh
Bhai Fauja Singh
Bhagat Pooran singh
Kirtanis :
Bhai Amrik Singh
Sant Poran Singh Karichow
Bhai Avatar Singh
Bhai Harjinder Singh Jinda
Sant Jeevan Singh AKJ
Bhai Balbir Singh
Bhai Sukhdev Singh
Baba Takhur Singh Bhindra
Bhai Jasbir Singh Khannan
Bhai Avatar Singh Brahma
Sant Jabjit Singh Harkowal
Bhai Amirk Singh Zakhmi
Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar
Sant Sarbjot Singh Bedhi
Bhai Harjinder Singh Sirinagar
Bhai Gurbachan Singh Monchal
Sant Hari singh Randhawa
Bhai Naranjan Singh Jwadi
General Shubheg Singh
Baba Labh Singh Anandghar
Bhai Nirmal singh Darbar Sahib
Bhai Kulwant Singh Nagokay
Baba Sewa Singh Khadoor Sahib
Sant Anoop Singh
Baba Kashmir Singh Booriwale
Bhai Gurdial Singh Rehsia
Baba Shisha Singh Nanded Sahib


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 1, 2014)

Abneet Singh ji,

Thanks for proving my point.

Enough Said.

Tejwant Singh


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## Abneet (Jul 1, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abneet Singh ji,
> 
> Thanks for proving my point.
> 
> ...



You really lost your point. Those are the names that stand with me on supporting DG. If you want to argue against their work you would look like a fool.

Lets take a look at the leading Anti-Dasam Granth scholars so called:
 	Gurtej Singh , lost his voice, could not speak for nearly a year.	 
 	Harinder Mehboob contracted bone cancer.	 
 	Kala Afghna had gone mental, checked into a mental institution.	(raped a girl too) 
 	Baldev Singh died of brain tumour.	 
 	Prof Darshan Singh Ji Khalsa has been rendered an apostate by Akaal Takhat Sahib.

They really are great Sikh Panthic leaders in trying to change Sikhi for the better eh...


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 1, 2014)

Abneet Singh says:



> Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale says, "consider him a Nastik (athiest) and a Bemukh (traitor) one who does not believe in this (Bachittar Natak) from the rasna of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib



The exact same appears verbatim here:
http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php...n-sri-dasam-granth&catid=34:english&Itemid=63

This is called blatant plagiarism and cheating in any human values including Sikhi when one does not credit the source from where the material is copied and pasted from.

It is a shame indeed to project oneself as a Sikh in this manner.


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## Abneet (Jul 1, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abneet Singh says:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I mean if you wanted the source you could of asked you know? I had that site bookmarked for a reason. It is a shame you don't agree with the following GurSikhs and I on Dasam Granth. Plus in the SRM it does say banis of all 10 Gurus so I guess your putting yourself in danger.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 1, 2014)

Abneet said:


> You really lost your point. Those are the names that stand with me on supporting DG. If you want to argue against their work you would look like a fool.
> 
> Lets take a look at the leading Anti-Dasam Granth scholars so called:
> Gurtej Singh , lost his voice, could not speak for nearly a year.
> ...



Copied and pasted from the following site without giving any credit to the site. One more blatant plagiarism.The exact same appears verbatim

 Shall I continue?

http://www.info-sikh.com/PageKnowDG2.html

The following are the anti-Dasam Granth brigade:

 	Gurtej Singh , lost his voice, could not speak for nearly a year.	 
 	Harinder Mehboob contracted bone cancer.	 
 	Kala Afghna has gone mental, checked into a mental institution.	 
 	Baldev Singh died of brain tumour.	 
 	Prof Darshan Singh Ji Khalsa has been rendered an apostate by Akaal Takhat Sahib.


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## Abneet (Jul 1, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Copied and pasted from the following site without giving any credit to the site. One more blatant plagiarism. Shall I continue?
> 
> http://www.info-sikh.com/PageKnowDG2.html
> 
> ...



If you wanted the source you could of asked instead of searching it up and claiming I copy and pasted which I know I did lol. Stating the obvious for me my point was made if you want to be part of this little brigade of Sikh missionary parchariks who want to bash Dasam Granth so be it. Why don't they talk about drugs or cutting kesh? Why do they always start up issues in the Panth? They were made to do that lol.  I will firmly and happily support those who support the DG on the list I posted from the site. We can go back on topic now.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 1, 2014)

Abneet Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

*sikhphilosophy.net* AKA *SPN*, is the site which has built its reputation and credibility on honest and open minded debates. Thus, *SPN* does not accept *Plagiarism* by anyone which you have deliberately committed in your posts. 

It is not my duty or of the *SPN* to ask you if they are your original thoughts as you tried to show, but it is your duty  to give the credit where it is due.

It is obvious  that the comments you claimed to be  your own thoughts are in fact not yours but you have copied and pasted your comments from the following sites without giving them the due credit which is not allowed on *SPN*. This is called blatant cheating and thievery.

http://www.info-sikh.com/PageKnowDG2.html
http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?...lish&Itemid=63

We will not accept this kind of behaviour from anyone.

Tejwant Singh


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## aristotle (Jul 1, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Gurtej Singh , lost his voice, could not speak for nearly a year.
> Harinder Mehboob contracted bone cancer.
> Kala Afghna had gone mental, checked into a mental institution.	(raped a girl too)
> Baldev Singh died of brain tumour.
> Prof Darshan Singh Ji Khalsa has been rendered an apostate by Akaal Takhat Sahib.



What is this? God sending diseases upon the apostates(?)....? Looks like God went all Old Testament on them, isnt it?


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## Abneet (Jul 2, 2014)

aristotle said:


> What is this? God sending diseases upon the apostates(?)....? Looks like God went all Old Testament on them, isnt it?


 
lol. Quite a coincidence though.


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## Abneet (Jul 2, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Abneet Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Sorry you could of asked me for the sources. This is the first time such thing happened, I apologize for missing out on the sources. But really I like how you try to go off-topic on the subject and not stay on topic but its alright I understand you have nothing else to say.


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## aristotle (Jul 2, 2014)

Abneet said:


> lol. Quite a coincidence though.



I am waiting for what will happen to Jathedar Iqbal Singh the bigamist, who beat up his wife, and whose men were responsible for a bloody swordfight in the premises of Takht Patna Sahib, in front of the Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj. He is an ardent crusader of the parallel prakash of DG alongside Guru Sahib though, just saying.


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## Abneet (Jul 2, 2014)

aristotle said:


> I am waiting for what will happen to Jathedar Iqbal Singh the bigamist, who beat up his wife, and whose men were responsible for a bloody swordfight in the premises of Takht Patna Sahib, in front of the Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj. He is an ardent crusader of the parallel prakash of DG alongside Guru Sahib though, just saying.



I agree that he was responsible for the clash at Patna Sahib early this year. However with Gurbachan Singh as Akal Takht Jathedar I don't see him getting excommunicated anytime soon for what he has done. Though Gurbachan Singh did ban him from meetings. I don't know who he has ties too also.  Heres the latest on that:http://sikhsangat.org/2014/akal-takht-to-decide-on-pardon-after-studying-sgpc-panel-report-jathedar/


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 2, 2014)

For what its worth...it was a favorite song and dance of these same DG types who alos used to claim that the people who oppose RAAGMALA died with maggots in their mouths....Hundreds of Akhand paath bhogs and sehaj paath bhogs were performed in Malaysia leading Gurdwara for nearly 70 years without anyone having maggots..

Of the so called "diseased" persons mentioned in a previous post..Kala Afghana is said to me mental...( just a matter of opinion and false charges)..Baldev Singh did indeed have a brain tumor which is a quite common cancer now adays...Sewa Singh tarmala who was Principle of Academy producing BRAHMGYANIS..died of Kaala Peeliah  dreaded TYPHOID FEVER !! He was a Firm beleiver of DG and also his own versions of simran etc...In Fact is it a "coincidence" that he GOT KAALA + PEELLIAH as his HEART was BLACK..and he always WORE YELLOW as a sign of his form of KHALSA BRAHMGYANI !!! His heart was black becasue he DANCED wildly in front of SGGS during which dastaars flew and kesh were flung up and down..his Simran style !!

Prof darshan singh doesnt have any "sickness" ( apart from knee surgery due to long kirtan sessions for decades)..so in his case the critics make do  with just "apostasy"...This type of METHODOLOGY is comparing Apples with Grapes...

APOSTATES???..Prof Gurmukh singh, Gyani Ditt Singh Singh Sabha lehr..etc etc declared so......... by PAID JHOLEE CHUK Jathedars who gave Siropas to GEN DYER of Jallinwallah Baag !! So such 'declarations" are not worth the cheap recycled newsprint paper the jholee chuk jathedars write on !!! SO nay SIKH who can HONOUR the Jathedar for giving SIROPA to Gen.Dyer..Parkash badal..etc etc..is same as the SIKH who beleives Prof Gurmukh singh, gyani ditt singh, prof darshan singha re really "apostates"...ha ha ha

I am surprised that someone can be so brainwashed so fast...but the "sources" reveal the facts...sad ...because a Real SIKH has to use his own brains..AAKLEEN SAHIB SEVEAYEAH....not be a blind follower of another man..


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## SaintSoldier1699 (Jul 2, 2014)

This thread seems to have gone way off topic and on to the DG debate.

Abneet Ji, please have an open mind, you state we need changes yet want to choose when and how.  

Referencing people who believed in DG does not mean we should also, or that its set in stone that we must because so and so did it.  This is using established personalities as leverage, by saying "oh how dare you say so and so was wrong, do you think you are better".  This isn't a debating tool it is a fear mongering tool to get people to hush up and not talk about the white elephant in the room.

Do you think our Guru's used fear as a tool? Sites like panthic.org are the daily mail of Sikh news unfortunately.  Try to write your opinion on their website that is not inline with theirs and see how far you get?  Try to send a humble email to ask for explanation or clarity on rumours etc you will not get an answer.  It is far from a fair media source.

On Prof Sarbjit Singh Dhunda, everyone seems to jump on the bandwagon of "foul play" which is shouted out by the vested interests who oppose him because he is a threat, he spoke out about the status quo, the glaringly obvious abuse of Sikhi, the state of the average Sikh not knowing much about Sikhi.  Listen to his views and tell me that he hasn't openly spoke out against politics, drugs, the youth turning away from Sikhi.  He gave a fresh approach to the old story telling, go to sleep culture and started to awaken people in the masses.

But it seems the same old attitude of 1% complaint wipes out the 99% of good you have done, purely because we judge others with much more severity than ourselves.  

Also, the threat of finding out that you have spend X years believing, investing in something that now may not be so true/right is always going to cause retaliation in those who cannot accept it.... yet this is life, and it happens to us all the time, but out comes the offence when it is to do with "Religion".


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## linzer (Jul 2, 2014)

Where can I locate his English translations of his work?


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## Abneet (Jul 2, 2014)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> For what its worth...it was a favorite song and dance of these same DG types who alos used to claim that the people who oppose RAAGMALA died with maggots in their mouths....Hundreds of Akhand paath bhogs and sehaj paath bhogs were performed in Malaysia leading Gurdwara for nearly 70 years without anyone having maggots..
> 
> Of the so called "diseased" persons mentioned in a previous post..Kala Afghana is said to me mental...( just a matter of opinion and false charges)..Baldev Singh did indeed have a brain tumor which is a quite common cancer now adays...Sewa Singh tarmala who was Principle of Academy producing BRAHMGYANIS..died of Kaala Peeliah  dreaded TYPHOID FEVER !! He was a Firm beleiver of DG and also his own versions of simran etc...In Fact is it a "coincidence" that he GOT KAALA + PEELLIAH as his HEART was BLACK..and he always WORE YELLOW as a sign of his form of KHALSA BRAHMGYANI !!! His heart was black becasue he DANCED wildly in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji during which dastaars flew and kesh were flung up and down..his Simran style !!
> 
> ...



Nothing is wrong with Gurmat Gian missionary in Ludhiana where Dhunda and Ghanga got their training from? They are trying to challenge tenets of Sikhi that we already know. They just bring more commotion to the Panth. That list of DG supporters should be enough for everyone that it is supported by most. If you wanna challenge DG supporters please go on a gurdwara stage and challenge everyone yourself and see how far you get...otherwise keep sitting behind a keyboard and trying to convince me isn't going to do accomplish anything.


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## itsmaneet (Jul 2, 2014)

Any raising doubts on any work or doing of Gurus is not acceptable. Dhunda & his Guru Kala Afghana are few of those.

Gurfateh !!


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 2, 2014)

itsmaneet said:


> Any raising doubts on any work or doing of Gurus is not acceptable. Dhunda & his Guru Kala Afghana are few of those.
> 
> Gurfateh !!



itsmanmeet ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please clarify what you mean by the following with examples:

"Any raising doubts on any work or doing of Gurus is not acceptable."

Do you take Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our only Guru or not?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 2, 2014)

Gentlemen, are you aware that there is a renaissance taking place?, 

All the questions asked as kids, all the inconsistencies, the contradictions, the double standards, the hypocrisy, are all being addressed and questioned. In my view, Dhunda and Kala Afghana are leading lights in this renaissance.


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## Admin (Jul 2, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Sorry you could of asked me for the sources. This is the first time such thing happened, I apologize for missing out on the sources. But really I like how you try to go off-topic on the subject and not stay on topic but its alright I understand you have nothing else to say.


Abneet ji,

Needless to say, copy and pasting from other websites without any reference is plagiarism and not allowed as per Terms of Services at SPN. Repeat offenders are subject to ban without notice. Which is in our least of priorities. 

The argument that nobody asked you to post links back to originating websites, which is quite untrue, is not an excuse expected from a matured person like you or for that matter anybody else participating on these forums. It is the responsibility of each and every SPN'er to read and understand and respect all the *Terms of Service* mentioned at the bottom of each page and which are supposed to be read even before registering at SPN. We respect, whatever, school of thought you or anybody adheres to, but to mock at others for their views is very child like and does not lead us anywhere. Let us get our basics of a matured and responsible participation right and then mutual respect will automatically follow. 

*Finally, it is OK to cut and paste (of-course with references) but what we, at SPN, are interested is:  what do you personally think about a topic in hand, without a blind faith/following.*

Please treat this as a first and final warning as far as Plagiarism is concerned. 

Thank you so much for your understanding,

Gurafteh!


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## Abneet (Jul 2, 2014)

harry haller said:


> Gentlemen, are you are there is a renaissance taking place?,
> 
> All the questions asked as kids, all the inconsistencies, the contradictions, the double standards, the hypocrisy, are all being addressed and questioned. In my view, Dhunda and Kala Afghana are leading lights in this renaissance.



Only a tiny of minority of Sikhs support them. They are no-namers now. Enough of their venom attacks on our Panth ,now we have other issues to worry about.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Kala_Afghana

As you can see his views he simply calls out against Amrit and goes right at it. If you haven't read his book or looked up his views, then you shouldn't be discussing without knowing what he really says. To me he is attacking the basic tenets of Sikhi. This guy might be a philosopher but is a nobody in the end.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 3, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Only a tiny of minority of Sikhs support them. They are no-namers now. Enough of their venom attacks on our Panth ,now we have other issues to worry about.
> 
> http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Kala_Afghana
> 
> As you can see his views he simply calls out against Amrit and goes right at it. If you haven't read his book or looked up his views, then you shouldn't be discussing without knowing what he really says. To me he is attacking the basic tenets of Sikhi. This guy might be a philosopher but is a nobody in the end.



Guru Piyaraio Jios,

I have downloaded all the books back in the old days when i had ONLY the DOT MATRIX Printer..and I have read and re-read and un-read and re-read..those books a dozen times...I failed to find any "sikhi" tenet being attacked..yes the various Bippar/Brahminised/Vedic "Sikhi" + its RITUALS....that is Condemned in GURBANI..is being attacked and vehemently with Quotes form SGGS that run in the hundreds of Shabads...When the Dot Matrix copies became too old..I Downlaoded them all over again and now printed them on the Latest 1200DPI Laser Printers in Full Colour..still cant find anything objectionable....NEITHER could the Jathedars..thats why they Backed OFF and side tracked into personal attacks of mental..sick..raping..bicycle thief ( BTW..the next Important Parcharak after that Prof Ghaggha got the very same Attacks..truck thief, fake professor etc etc which are used against Dhunda and also Darshan Singh !!!...Solid Proof that the OPPOSING SIDE has NOTHING Based on Gurbani/SGGS and so they attack the person based on false stories).

Latest Question: ON what Page of SGGS is there a Gurbani titled REHRASS ? The Authentic Title in SGGS is SODAR. There is No Title REHRASS...which is an invention by vested interests who have also invented banis like Sankat Mochan, Dukh Bhanjannn, ETC ETC.
KalaAfghana and Ghaggha etc ask such questions and the opposition is unable to answer..so they cry..rape..theif..truck driver..fake professor..nastik..atheist....and anyone may visit many sites where these are called even worse..(pornographic language is Normal at those sites)

PLEASE read for YOURSELF..and then arrive at your own conclusions...I have met dozens who will ask me..have you read the DG..but when I respond..YES I have and what PAGE are you referring to...total silence...had I said NEGATIVE..the response would have been..AAHHH Waddah Gyani banniah firdah..DG vekhiyah vee nahin..!!!!..boldah....the FACT is that 99% of DG supporters dont even know how many pages dg has...but they will drop names like so and so SANT ji read it..so WHAT ?? Kabir Ji asks..OH Brahmin IF you are so special and learned..why didnt you come into this world a different way ?? YOU were BORN form the same orifice I was...AAN Baat kaheh ko nhin ayiah ??  ONLY the GURU is ingfallible...and the GURU is SGGS. PERIOD.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 3, 2014)

BTW..sites like sikhwiki are a dime a dozen...the ONLY INFALLIBLE SOURCE is SGGS. PERIOD. Just about anyone with a few spare dollars can set up a wiki..etc..BUT ONLY the GURU can WRITE GURBANI....no Sant..no brahmgyani..no mahapurash..NO HUMAN could write a SINGLE tuk of GURBANI..not even the self proclaiemd GURUS like the Beas Guru, Sirsa Guru, Namdharee Guru etc etc etc..THAT is the LITMUS TEST....so Just like there are DERAS like the sand on the beaches..there are WIKI sites ....whatever...RELY on SELF..and ask GRACE GURPARSAAD of the One and true GURU...SGGS ONLY.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 3, 2014)

> Only a tiny of minority of Sikhs support them. They are no-namers now. Enough of their venom attacks on our Panth ,now we have other issues to worry about.



What you find to be venom attacks on our panth, I see as a well needed shake up and kick up the behind to dispel Vedic practices that have crept into Sikhism. You have mentioned parchar many times, what concerns me about parchar is that if we ignore the Dhundas of the world, what exactly are we parcharing? 



> http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Kala_Afghana



What he is actually saying is that there is no magical facet to Amrit, and that bathing in the water at Darbar Sahib will not make you a better person nor bring the dead back to life, he is dispelling all the hocus pocus that surrounds Sikhism and asking pragmatic intelligent questions, those that would deem him, and Dhunda as madmen, clearly have their own agenda, in fact, I can respect that a bit, a person with an agenda can have their actions explained, what confuses the hell out of me are the multitudes that follow blindly, with no agenda other than lapping up the misinformation that is being pumped out. 



> If you haven't read his book or looked up his views, then you shouldn't be discussing without knowing what he really says



I have, and I have, it is people like Dhunda and Kala Afghana that actually brought me back to Sikhism, it made me realise that a change is coming, that people are questioning, that all the misinformation I was fed as a child is just that, misinformation.
Your statement also equally applies to your own self.....



> To me he is attacking the basic tenets of Sikhi. This guy might be a philosopher but is a nobody in the end.



ok name one, any one of the basic ones he is attacking?


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## itsmaneet (Jul 3, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> itsmanmeet ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Without a doubt I do consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our ONE & ONLY GURU. The same time also respect the work, belongings of all our Gurus be it Dasam Granth, Chola of Guru Nanak Sahib, Shastars of our Gurus etc. But this guy Dhunda seems to disrespect Guru's belongings specifically the Dasam Granth.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jul 3, 2014)

1. Its always one argument..."Dassan Guru sahibaan dee Bani"..which is meant that this authenticates the DG..whereas all it means is that the GURU - Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..is the COMBINED "dass Guru sahibaans"...OR put it another way Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji=GURU NANAK (Mahalla Pehlla to Mahalla Dasvaan. This also is why the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is VITAL to the preparation of the Khandey batteh Dee Pahul Ceremony ( The PANJ CANNOT start the Pahul ceremony in theABSENCE of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - in 1699 this Ceremony was GURU GOBIND SINGH JI + the Panj..from 1708 its Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji+the Panj. Period.)

2. Its a Histoprical FACT that Guru HarGobind Sahib Ji, Guru HarRai sahib Ji, and Guru HarKishan Sahib Ji DID NOT WRITE any bani. SO IF the words "Dassan Guruan dee bani proves that Guru GOBIND SINGH JI has too have written Bani..then this arguemnt FAILS..becasue then with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji=DG its ONLY SIX GURUS BANI !!! In other words the word DASSAN GURUAN is in no way  a proof that Guru gobind Singh ji wrote bani.  In this LIGHT the Argument in Para ONE stands FIRM. Dassan Guruan dee Bani is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.and ONLy the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is GURU.PERIOD.

3. Its also an accepted Historical FACT as to WHY the Sixth GURU didnot write any bani..) Immediately After Guru Angad Sahib Ji it ahd become apparent that the House of nanak had this unique gift called GURBANI...Bhai KLehnna Ji, Bhai Amardass Ji..were in FACT attracted to the House of Nanak by the GURBANI of Guru nanak ji Sahib..esp JAPJI SAHIB..which had become very very commonly read due to Guru nanak jis travels....Rakshahs and Thugghs like Kauda, Sajjan etc were TRANSFORMED by the GURBANI....

4. Thus the enemies of the House of nanak - Beginning witht he two UNWORTHY sosn of Guru Nanak Ji, Guru Angad Ji, and Guru Amardass Ji....had begun the practise of spreading KACHEE BANI..so much so that Guru Amardass Ji has warned SIKHS about this in ANAND SAHIB...a Bnai that EQUALS the Masterpieces of Japji Asa dee vaar and other Banis earlier...and written at an ADVANCED AGE when ordinary persons actually become SENILE !!!  NOTE: THIS is the period when the HISTORY of SIKHISM was also DISTORTED..Spuriosu books like the Bhai balal janam sakhi , the Gurbials Patshai Chhevin and Bachitar natak as well as many fake Hukmnamahs etc were written to confuse Sikhs. Bhai bala was INVENTED and his "so called personal companiion seen history of Guru nanak ji is FAKE and seeks to PROMOTE the HINDALIS as BETTER GURUS than those follwoing Guru nanak Ji...These Hindalis continued to Baba WADDBHAG SINGH whose DERA today drives out BHOOTS and evil spirits in direct conflict with GURBANI TEACHINGS and Gurmatt...the Balal Tall tale book was written by Waddbhags ancestors...further these same people also tried to ASSASINATE GURU TEG BAHADUR Ji by firinga  rifle at him )

5. After the Martyrdom of Guru Arjun Ji (one of the  MAJOR reasons  for the MARTYRDOM being the compilation and saambh-sambhaal preservation of the GURBANI of the FIVE GURUS and Bhagats in one volume AAD GRANTH which the Enemies hated )....the Rebellious section of the House of Nanak ...people like the Hundalis, the Mehrbans etc began to WRITE SPURIOUS BANI under the Nanak Chhaap and Mahalla CHHEVAAN Satvaan etc...which was an attempt to CONFUSE the Sikhs !!!  To NEGATE this..the AUTHENTIC Maahalla chhevan satvaan and athvaan did not write any bani at all...Mahalla nauvahn Guru teg bahadur Ji wrote the last banis that were to be added to the AAD GRANTH by Guru Gobind Singh Ji at the appropriate palces, raags etc throughout the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji before the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was given GURGADEE in 1708.

Had Guru Gobind Singh ji wanted nay of His "banis" added to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..there was no reason for Him to not add them..as He had OPENED the MUNDAWNNEE Mah 5 put in place by Guru Arjun Ji..and ADDED the banis of Guru teg bahadur ji at many many places (ALL Raags have banis written by Guru teg bahadur Ji - in FACT Guru Teg bahadur Ji has one RAAG EXTRA to those used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..Raag jaijawantee !!..and AFTER this ADDITION..Guru Gobind Singh Ji PLACED the MUNDAWNNEE MAH 5 LOCK back in its proper place and SEALED the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  This is also another solid proof that Raagmala which comes OUTSIDE the SEAL or LOCK is NOT Gurbani. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji closes officially with the Slok Mh 5 as Shukraana by Guru Arjun ji and to complement the internal structure of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji because it OPENS with a SLOK also.(AAD SACH JUGAAD SACH...Nannak hosee hai bhee sach.  PERFECT COMPLEMENT.).

Regards


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## Harry Haller (Jul 3, 2014)

itsmaneet said:


> Without a doubt I do consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our ONE & ONLY GURU. The same time also respect the work, belongings of all our Gurus be it Dasam Granth, Chola of Guru Nanak Sahib, Shastars of our Gurus etc. But this guy Dhunda seems to disrespect Guru's belongings specifically the Dasam Granth.




The problem is how do you know? Do you know how to check whether your windows installation is legal? There should be a little sticker somewhere that says 'certificate of authenticity', this sticker means that the windows you have on your computer is legal and valid. We can put some faith in this that everything is good with our software, 

So, Dasam Granth, Cholas, belongings, where is the sticker? 

With the Dasam Granth, it is a bit more complicated, not only does it lack a certificate of authenticity, but its content is extremely questionable, it is like a pc that has windows loaded using a cracked copy, no certificate, and full of viruses and spyware so nothing makes any actual sense. The passages about sex are not written to warn or educate, they seem more titillation to me, written in the style of Vedic writings.

However... just as we show respect for Muslims, Christians and Hindus, not only for their beliefs, but also how they choose to worship, then we should also respect those that believe that the entire DG was written by the tenth Master,  the problem then is the reconciliation of respect for another, balanced against respect for our Gurus, and for the maligning of our history


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## Abneet (Jul 3, 2014)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Guru Piyaraio Jios,
> 
> I have downloaded all the books back in the old days when i had ONLY the DOT MATRIX Printer..and I have read and re-read and un-read and re-read..those books a dozen times...I failed to find any "sikhi" tenet being attacked..yes the various Bippar/Brahminised/Vedic "Sikhi" + its RITUALS....that is Condemned in GURBANI..is being attacked and vehemently with Quotes form Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that run in the hundreds of Shabads...When the Dot Matrix copies became too old..I Downlaoded them all over again and now printed them on the Latest 1200DPI Laser Printers in Full Colour..still cant find anything objectionable....NEITHER could the Jathedars..thats why they Backed OFF and side tracked into personal attacks of mental..sick..raping..bicycle thief ( BTW..the next Important Parcharak after that Prof Ghaggha got the very same Attacks..truck thief, fake professor etc etc which are used against Dhunda and also Darshan Singh !!!...Solid Proof that the OPPOSING SIDE has NOTHING Based on Gurbani/Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and so they attack the person based on false stories).
> 
> ...



I wonder Jarnail ji, did your dad learn anything about the DG from Sant Kartar's predecessors? I thought Kartar singh believed DG to be dasvee patshaah's bani or did he not? (his name was on that list) It is true GGS is our only guru. Back on the topic of DG, So many known Gursikhs supported it from Bhai Vir singh to Baba Nand Singh. We are talking about influential Gursikhs from our history that are well known by almost every Sikh. We have to think what did they miss in DG? Were they interpreting it wrong or reading it without knowing where the writing came from?


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## Abneet (Jul 3, 2014)

harry haller said:


> What you find to be venom attacks on our panth, I see as a well needed shake up and kick up the behind to dispel Vedic practices that have crept into Sikhism. You have mentioned parchar many times, what concerns me about parchar is that if we ignore the Dhundas of the world, what exactly are we parcharing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm glad Dhunda supporters are like 1% of the Sikh population now in the West your voices will never be heard.....lol

He straight up attacks amrit and says it is meaningless being a amritdhari. He doesn't believe Guru Gobind Singh ji beheaded the punj pyare. You got people saying its impossible or lambs were used? Whats next? amrit sanchar never took place LOL. - this refers to Afghana.

Dhunda on the other hand I don't care about anymore he is banned from the West. He can go mixing up Sikhs in India I don't mind its bad already enough there.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 3, 2014)

> He doesn't believe Guru Gobind Singh ji beheaded the punj pyare.



do you? 

You must then believe that Guru Gobind Singh was some sort of God then, rather then a servant of God, and if the tenth master was a god, capable of reassembling dead bodies, why did he then lead a very mortal life? Why did not celestial beings assist us in our battles? Why did he not walk the battlefields and bring all the dead Sikh warriors back to life? 

So in your world, let me get this right so I understand, Taking Amrit on its own is not meaningless, without any internal discipline or desire, the very action of taking Amrit will transform you into a Sikh, and our Gurus were supernatural magicians that brought the dead back to life, 

Let me also understand something else, you are Amritdhari, so it is your duty to parchar this right?



> I'm glad Dhunda supporters are like 1% of the Sikh population now in the West your voices will never be heard.....



why would you be glad? surely the truth is the truth whatever it is, do you feel you have the truth? I certainly do not, every day there is  new discover, a new truth,


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## Abneet (Jul 3, 2014)

harry haller said:


> do you?
> 
> You must then believe that Guru Gobind Singh was some sort of God then, rather then a servant of God, and if the tenth master was a god, capable of reassembling dead bodies, why did he then lead a very mortal life? Why did not celestial beings assist us in our battles? Why did he not walk the battlefields and bring all the dead Sikh warriors back to life?
> 
> ...



If Ram Rai can resurrect the dead why can't the Gurus?lol

IDK why did guru arjun dev ji have to get burned on a hot plate? He didn't have too but it was according to His will. He accepted it therefore he didn't do anything.


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## arshdeep88 (Jul 3, 2014)

Abhneet Ji
pardon my ignorance and my lack of knowledge regarding the subject but could beheading of Punj pyaras  have been in actual reality meant the people who were infact ready to give up their Own MATT and follow GURUS matt blindfoldedly?


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## Abneet (Jul 3, 2014)

arshdeep88 said:


> Abhneet Ji
> pardon my ignorance and my lack of knowledge regarding the subject but could beheading of Punj pyaras  have been in actual reality meant the people who were infact ready to give up their Own MATT and follow GURUS matt blindfoldedly?



Remember now, Guru Gobind Singh Ji said who wants to give their head.....not who wants this or that. He said it clearly and loudly. The five original punj pyare were specifically unique. He was told by Akal Purakh to establish Khalsa. Now we can doubt our Gurus all we want but they did miracles when it was the time needed. They never abused it or they didn't believe in using miracles for their own good.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 3, 2014)

> If Ram Rai can resurrect the dead why can't the Gurus?



And your basis for this statement is ? another Sakhi?



> IDK why did guru arjun dev ji have to get burned on a hot plate? He didn't have too but it was according to His will. He accepted it therefore he didn't do anything.



Therefore why would the tenth master interfere with this will, even if he could?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 3, 2014)

> Now we can doubt our Gurus all we want but they did miracles when it was the time needed. They never abused it or they didn't believe in using miracles for their own good.



 can you state a documented miracle that has occurred in Sikhism?


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## Abneet (Jul 3, 2014)

harry haller said:


> And your basis for this statement is ? another Sakhi?
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore why would the tenth master interfere with this will, even if he could?



He could but it would be devastating. We all can't understand God's work we can understand bit parts but the main thing is that Guru Gobind Singh ji couldn't interfere with God's play. We can question everything within God's Will but we won't get full answers. The gurus did their part within His will. I know I sometimes don't understand God's will and I probably never will but we just have to accept it in the end. That's how I see it. Your view might be way different.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 3, 2014)

Abneet said:


> He could but it would be devastating. We all can't understand God's work we can understand bit parts but the main thing is that Guru Gobind Singh ji couldn't interfere with God's play. We can question everything within God's Will but we won't get full answers. The gurus did their part within His will. I know I sometimes don't understand God's will and I probably never will but we just have to accept it in the end. That's how I see it. Your view might be way different.



your arguments seem to be contradicting, on the one hand Guruji couldn't interfere with God's will, on the other hand, he decapitated people and then brought them back to life, which is it?


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## Abneet (Jul 3, 2014)

harry haller said:


> your arguments seem to be contradicting, on the one hand Guruji couldn't interfere with God's will, on the other hand, he decapitated people and then brought them back to life, which is it?



It wasn't against God's Will for beheading the Punj Pyare as he was told by Akal Purakh to create the Khalsa Panth. So Guru ji did not mess with His Will.


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## Abneet (Jul 3, 2014)

harry haller said:


> can you state a documented miracle that has occurred in Sikhism?



Miracle with Guru Harkrishan Ji and Lal Chand. Proof is that Lal Chand became a Sikh afterwards and fought with Guru Gobind Singh Ji. 


MUTE RECITES SALOKAS

"Sri Guru Harkrishan Ji was the epitome of sensibility, generosity and courage. There is a famous incident from his early age. Once on the way to Delhi from Punjab he met an arrogant Brahmin Pundit called Lal Chand in Panjokhara town. The Pundit asked him to recite Salokas from the Geeta since his name was similar to that of Lord Krishna. Guru Ji invited a mute person called Chhajju Mehra and placed his stick on his head. He immediately started interpreting salokas from the Geeta. Everybody around was dumbstruck. Lal Chand's arrogance too was shattered and he asked for Guru Ji's forgiveness."

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/gurus/Harkrishan/Guru%20Harkrishan.htm


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## Harry Haller (Jul 3, 2014)

Abneet said:


> It wasn't against God's Will for beheading the Punj Pyare as he was told by Akal Purakh to create the Khalsa Panth. So Guru ji did not mess with His Will.



is this your opinion or is it documented fact?


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## Abneet (Jul 3, 2014)

harry haller said:


> is this your opinion or is it documented fact?



Nah I didn't just come up with that fact. I'll have to dig for that reference for you.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 3, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Miracle with Guru Harkrishan Ji and Lal Chand. Proof is that Lal Chand became a Sikh afterwards and fought with Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
> 
> 
> MUTE RECITES SALOKAS
> ...



But this site also gives the name of the following Gurus as equal to the known 10 Gurus, namely,

GURU BALAK SINGH

GURU RAM SINGH

GURU HARI SINGH

GURU PARTAP SINGH

GURU JAGJIT SINGH

Who are these people? I have never heard of them, why are you quoting from a site that insults our 10 Gurus by making them appear equal to the above ? How am I supposed to take anything this site states seriously?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 3, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Nah I didn't just come up with that fact. I'll have to dig for that reference for you.



please do, I want a specific reference that Akal Purakh instructed the tenth master that in order to bring about the Khalsa, he would have to murder people and then bring them back to life, thanks


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## arshdeep88 (Jul 3, 2014)

Abneet said:


> Remember now, Guru Gobind Singh Ji said who wants to give their head.....not who wants this or that. He said it clearly and loudly. The five original punj pyare were specifically unique. He was told by Akal Purakh to establish Khalsa. Now we can doubt our Gurus all we want but they did miracles when it was the time needed. They never abused it or they didn't believe in using miracles for their own good.




just curious to know what if he just wanted to Test the best to see who can have the undying faith in the GURU without actually beheading them?

yes,i have read sakhi of Ram rai bringing back the dead.There are many Sakhis which are unreliable and even if we think this Sakhi to be reliable then  in the Sakhi itself it is mentioned how the Guru Ji himself asked Ram rai to never Interfere with the wills and laws of the nature and GOD which concludes how GURUS were opposed to performing miracles.


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## Abneet (Jul 3, 2014)

harry haller said:


> But this site also gives the name of the following Gurus as equal to the known 10 Gurus, namely,
> 
> GURU BALAK SINGH
> 
> ...



There are many and many sites that refer to the miracle. You don't have to believe it your choice.


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## Abneet (Jul 3, 2014)

arshdeep88 said:


> just curious to know what if he just wanted to Test the best to see who can have the undying faith in the GURU without actually beheading them?
> 
> yes,i have read sakhi of Ram rai bringing back the dead.There are many Sakhis which are unreliable and even if we think this Sakhi to be reliable then  in the Sakhi itself it is mentioned how the Guru Ji himself asked Ram rai to never Interfere with the wills and laws of the nature and GOD which concludes how GURUS were opposed to performing miracles.



They were opposed in performing miracles in times of need miracles were used. But in no way should we base our faith in miracles alone we have the GGS.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 3, 2014)

> There are many and many sites that refer to the miracle. .



so why did you pick a site that puts Namdhari Gurus on the same level as the the 10 Gurus in Sikhism? are you a Namdhari Sikh? Do you just google things and paste them without actually reading the sites first?



> You don't have to believe it your choice.



I am asking you to back up your argument on a public forum with facts, it is nothing to do with choices or even me personally, if you cannot back it up with facts and your only source is 'what you think' that is not enough to make grand and false statements about our religion, the trouble is there are too many people walking around believing that 'what they think' is worthy of parchar. 



> They were opposed in performing miracles in times of need miracles were used. But in no way should we base our faith in miracles alone we have the GGS.



so how would a Guru make this point? how would a Guru build on this? was not the battle of Chamkaur a 'time of need'? Would not a Guru that wished us to base our faith in the SGGS and not miracles therefore steer clear of such at a time of creating the Khalsa?


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## Abneet (Jul 3, 2014)

harry haller said:


> so why did you pick a site that puts Namdhari Gurus on the same level as the the 10 Gurus in Sikhism? are you a Namdhari Sikh? Do you just google things and paste them without actually reading the sites first?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol i didn't fully check the site only the part I was searching for and it had the same part as posted on other sites. 

It happened and there are 72 miracles that Ram Rai did. Sorry I can't find the real sources but there are online. But I'm surely you can research enough yourself. It isn't false statements, you surely don't believe in a lot of Sikh history which gets me to ask my self why are you complaining about it in the first place with me? I don't have to prove you, I already know. Most Sikhs know...

Your asking me how Guru would build on this? I really have no idea what the Guru ji was thinking. He did behead the punj pyare. Whats next dhunda followers are gonna ask if amrit sanchar 1699 ever took place lol....


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## Sherdil (Jul 3, 2014)

Here's how I think it went down:

Guru Sahib asked the sangat for a human head. The first person came forward. Guru ji took him inside the tent where he had a bowl of blood collected from a lamb that had been killed jatka style earlier. He dabbed some blood on the sword, then came out again and asked for another head. The next 4 pyaare came forward and Guru ji repeated the same procedure each time. Finally he came out of the tent with the 5 pyaare's heads still attached. 

Everyone in the sangat was like "Woah!!! Guru ji just cut off their heads and then brought them back to life. It's a miracle!!". The Mughal spies that were also amongst the sangat must have been equally amazed and terrified. 

If Guru ji really could perform miracles in times of need, then I could think of so many situations where his powers would have proved useful.


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## SaintSoldier1699 (Jul 3, 2014)

Abneet said:


> It wasn't against God's Will for beheading the Punj Pyare as he was told by Akal Purakh to create the Khalsa Panth. So Guru ji did not mess with His Will.



All of this is quite complex to keep up with, I thought Mahabharat was complex.

It seems only some understand when or not God allowed exceptions to the rules.

Then again it seems to be the fragile band aid used to temporarily fix the leaks, when you have no real answer to the basic questions asked.


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## Abneet (Jul 3, 2014)

Sherdil said:


> Here's how I think it went down:
> 
> Guru Sahib asked the sangat for a human head. The first person came forward. Guru ji took him inside the tent where he had a bowl of blood collected from a lamb that had been killed jatka style earlier. He dabbed some blood on the sword, then came out again and asked for another head. The next 4 pyaare came forward and Guru ji repeated the same procedure each time. Finally he came out of the tent with the 5 pyaare's heads still attached.
> 
> ...



He officially asked for a head though. When he says who wants to give me your head he really meant their life. Amrit is a symbol of immortality for a reason. Why in the world would he use lamb blood no one heard lamb noise or such the night before or someone would had to notice. I have heard the alternative of that story being spread but its just false though.


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## Abneet (Jul 3, 2014)

SaintSoldier1699 said:


> All of this is quite complex to keep up with, I thought Mahabharat was complex.
> 
> It seems only some understand when or not God allowed exceptions to the rules.
> 
> Then again it seems to be the fragile band aid used to temporarily fix the leaks, when you have no real answer to the basic questions asked.



It's more complicated than it sounds. Of course I have no idea how it works between them two.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 3, 2014)

> i didn't fully check the site only the part I was searching for and it had the same part as posted on other sites.



why is that funny that your beliefs are backed up in such a incompetent way? 



> It happened and there are 72 miracles that Ram Rai did. Sorry I can't find the real sources but there are online. But I'm surely you can research enough yourself



You want me to research your statements to prove them for you because you cannot find the real sources? sure no problem, do you want me to write your posts for you as well? in fact why not just pm me your password and I can do the lot!



> It isn't false statements, you surely don't believe in a lot of Sikh history which gets me to ask my self why are you complaining about it in the first place with me? I don't have to prove you, I already know. Most Sikhs know...





> This should set it once for all on all views of Dhunda. Take a look.
> 
> http://www.panthic.org/articles/5488



I am responding to a post you made above, that is why, if you do not wish me to complain to you about it, and if you lack the skills to prove what you write, here's a hint, stop writing what you cannot back up.



> Your asking me how Guru would build on this? I really have no idea what the Guru ji was thinking.



why not, you seemed to have a divine link to what Akal Purakh was thinking, what has changed?



> Whats next dhunda followers are gonna ask if amrit sanchar 1699 ever took place ....



I follow the truth, not a person, you may wish to try it sometime


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## Abneet (Jul 3, 2014)

harry haller said:


> why is that funny that your beliefs are backed up in such a incompetent way?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry I don't bookmark real sources though I should in the future. Oh man you would save time please do.

It seems you are arrogant of Sikh history that's what it seems it all goes back to where the proof for this or that when Sikhs already know what false or not.

Divine link?nope, like I said there is a verse that Guru Gobind Singh says he was given to make the Khalsa Panth. If you think that the Khalsa shouldn't be allowed in Sikhi or is out dated don't even bring it up again. 

You need to study the truth a little more often. Little English translations won't help you btw.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 3, 2014)

> It seems you are arrogant of Sikh history



sorry that doesn't even make sense



> If you think that the Khalsa shouldn't be allowed in Sikhi or is out dated don't even bring it up again.



At no point have I said any of the above, are you now putting words in my mouth to suit your own agenda? what makes you say that I think this, can you quote me somewhere or is it just more misinformation?



> You need to study the truth a little more often. Little English translations won't help you btw.



can you please explain this, as, again, it makes no sense to me, thank you


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## Sherdil (Jul 3, 2014)

Abneet said:


> He officially asked for a head though. When he says who wants to give me your head he really meant their life. Amrit is a symbol of immortality for a reason. Why in the world would he use lamb blood no one heard lamb noise or such the night before or someone would had to notice. I have heard the alternative of that story being spread but its just false though.



I'm sure someone did see the lamb being killed. That's how this version of the story came about. But many more people saw the "miracle" that unfolded on stage. The miracle story also sounds cooler, so that's the version people choose to believe. 

My theory as to why Guru ji did this include the following points:

1) He wanted to see which Sikhs were truly devoted to him. As Guru Nanak ji states "If you want to play this game of love, come to me with your head on your hand".

2) He wanted to create an aura of divinity. The Mughals claimed that Guru ji was not a real prophet, as he was unable to perform miracles. This miracle business was also brought up in the debate between Basics of Sikhi and the Dawah Man. We all know this is hogwash, but I think this act was done to show the Mughals that he was the real deal. 

Separate Issue: The Mughal spies had infiltrated the sangat. Those that remained to witness the "miracle" but did not come forward to receive amrit, revealed themselves as persons of suspicion. It was wise for Guru ji to create a close circle of people whom he could trust, and whose bana would be difficult to emulate.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 3, 2014)

itsmaneet said:


> Without a doubt I do consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our ONE & ONLY GURU. The same time also respect the work, belongings of all our Gurus be it Dasam Granth, Chola of Guru Nanak Sahib, Shastars of our Gurus etc. But this guy Dhunda seems to disrespect Guru's belongings specifically the Dasam Granth.



itsmanmeet ji,

Guru Fateh.



> Without a doubt I do consider Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our ONE & ONLY GURU.



I am glad to hear the above. And, as SGGS is our ONE & ONLY GURU, then other things you wrote contradict this because they are based on hear says, nothing more unlike the SGGS, our ONE & ONLY GURU-your words. 

It seems you are trying to row two boats at the same time which is an impossible task. This hop scotching on your part does not fit in the Gurmat ideals.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## itsmaneet (Jul 3, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> itsmanmeet ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Nothing's contradicting. I maintain again Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the ONE & ONLY Guru but there's no harm to respect belongings of the Gurus & Dasam Granth is one of those.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 3, 2014)

itsmaneet said:


> Nothing's contradicting. I maintain again Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the ONE & ONLY Guru but there's no harm to respect belongings of the Gurus & Dasam Granth is one of those.



itsmanmeet ji,

Guru Fateh.

It is contradicting. 

Have the belongings that may or may not belong to our Gurus become your idolsto worship and matha tek because in Sikhi, we only Matha Tek in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, OUR ONLY GURU?

I am sure Idol Worshiping is against Sikhi. 

Before I delve into DG, please clear one fact in an honest manner. Have you studied the DG and if you have, what do you think about the pornography in it which you claim Guru Gobind Singh wrote it? 

Do you really believe in that?

Please explain with the reference pages from the DG?

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## itsmaneet (Jul 3, 2014)

Tejwant Singh said:


> itsmanmeet ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



I touch feet of my elders, parents & they are not idols. I respect belongings of our Gurus but that of course is not equal to the level of respect given to SGGS Ji.

Why a certain part of DG attracts you u much??? I will read that part once or twice, try to understand the purpose of the need to put it in DG by Guruji & move on to recite other part as well... A wise person will get the msg & move on rather disrespecting the work of DG. Also tria charitar seems to be included in the DG to make society aware of the tactics that might be used to fool a man by women. History says even the most powerful man had be befooled, deceived by a bad character woman to defeat him. Tria charitar stories have been in society for ages & cud have been used just as a reference to pass on a more relevant matter.


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## Ikk Khalsa (Jul 3, 2014)

itsmaneet said:


> I touch feet of my elders, parents & they are not idols. I respect belongings of our Gurus but that of course is not equal to the level of respect given to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
> 
> Why a certain part of DG attracts you u much??? I will read that part once or twice, try to understand the purpose of the need to put it in DG by Guruji & move on to recite other part as well... A wise person will get the msg & move on rather disrespecting the work of DG. Also tria charitar seems to be included in the DG to make society aware of the tactics that might be used to fool a man by women. History says even the most powerful man had be befooled, deceived by a bad character woman to defeat him. Tria charitar stories have been in society for ages & cud have been used just as a reference to pass on a more relevant matter.



Now do you think there might be little bit of contradiction in woman's character between Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and DG?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 3, 2014)

> Also tria charitar seems to be included in the DG to make society aware of the tactics that might be used to fool a man by women



but if we are all equal is that not superfluous?


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## Admin (Jul 3, 2014)

*The topic is going nowhere. Closed.
*


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