# Sex And  Soul



## Taranjeet singh (Apr 30, 2012)

We have been asked to control five lower passions and _inter alia _Kaam/sex happens to be the first one. Sex does have an effect on body. It is wondered if the sex has any effect on the soul. i.e if the soul is hit adversely by this physical activity of the body. 
What is the inter-relationship of body[budhi]mind and soul in this process.

Gurbani quotes , if any, would be welcome.  Kindly express your view points and illumine.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 30, 2012)

Taranjeet Singh ji,
Your question is very interesting.We may not find any quote in Gurbanee that can establish any relation ship between sex and Soul.
However the understanding is that SOUL does not have any SEX .
The  sex of the body is determined by other complex mechanisms resulting in the shaping of the body within mothers Womb. To understand the deveopment of SEX one can read some related books in Medical Science.I hope you may get some 
relevent information related to this aspect and the same you may share here 
accordingly.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Apr 30, 2012)

TARANJEET SINGH Ji,
Metaphorically every Soul is considered as FEMALE and THE CREATOR as ONE MALE.
For this you may look the quote from Gurbanee as

ਮਃ ੩ ॥ ਇਸੁ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਏਕੁ ਹੈ ਹੋਰ ਸਗਲੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਸਬਾਈ ॥ ਸਭਿ ਘਟ ਭੋਗਵੈ ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਰਹੈ ਅਲਖੁ ਨ ਲਖਣਾ ਜਾਈ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 592

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Archived_member15 (Apr 30, 2012)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> TARANJEET SINGH Ji,
> Metaphorically every Soul is considered as FEMALE and THE CREATOR as ONE MALE.
> For this you may look the quote from Gurbanee as
> 
> ...


 

"...In ancient times, the wise referred to the soul as feminine. Even her nature is female. She even has a womb...."

_- The Exegesis on the Soul, early Christian text (from second or third century)_ 


Its metaphorical of course, since there is no gender spiritually speaking. In mysticism the Soul is always personified as a woman longing for union with her Beloved - God, the Husband of the Soul.


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## Ambarsaria (Apr 30, 2012)

Taranjeet Singh ji thanks for your question.

Let us for a moment assume sex to involve various levels of mating and associated antics.

With the above definition of sex, I personally believe "mating of the souls happens" much more than "physical mating" of bodies.  Question is how do souls mate?  You guessed it, through "Soul_*ual*_" or soulular interactions.  Some when souls just flirt, sometimes they get near to each other, sometimes they touch and sometimes they just become one.

If in more understood fashion and often quoted soul is a "Jyot" that becomes part of the creator super Jyot, it is equally plausible if not certain that there is merging of souls to various levels in creation.  Can it be analogous to sex, I suppose it can be perhaps not as literally.

What are common expressions,


He/She set my soul on fire
I am a soul man
Two souls and one body (common recitation in Anand Karaj/Sikh Wedding Ceremony)
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I believe in the end just as there is nobody without soul and all associated aspects in small and large measure are also connected even so subtly or otherwise.

Regards.


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## Harry Haller (Apr 30, 2012)

Taranjeet singh said:


> We have been asked to control five lower passions and _inter alia _Kaam/sex happens to be the first one. Sex does have an effect on body. It is wondered if the sex has any effect on the soul. i.e if the soul is hit adversely by this physical activity of the body.
> What is the inter-relationship of body[budhi]mind and soul in this process.
> 
> Gurbani quotes , if any, would be welcome. Kindly express your view points and illumine.


 
Kaam is not sex, Kaam is lust. I cannot see anything wrong with loving sex in a loving relationship such can only be good for the soul. 

However sex with say someone you have only just met, animal lust if you will, is a completely different manner, such in excess destroys the soul, instead of nourishing and filling the soul with love, it blackens it, to the point where you can't feel anything, it blinds you, it distorts your thinking, it enslaves you, there is nothing loving about it, in fact some believe that each time you have sex with a different person, you lose some of your soul

Gurfateh


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Apr 30, 2012)

I don't think the soul can be affected by having sex or any other physical activity. Next thing I would say is that we lose touch with our soul. But it is very hard to define the self, the mind and the soul. Mind would ask for more and more sex, soul would ask for enlightenment. Something of a Manmat vs Gurmat.


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## Luckysingh (Apr 30, 2012)

Taranjeet singh said:


> We have been asked to control five lower passions and _inter alia _Kaam/sex happens to be the first one. Sex does have an effect on body. It is wondered if the sex has any effect on the soul. i.e if the soul is hit adversely by this physical activity of the body.
> What is the inter-relationship of body[budhi]mind and soul in this process.
> 
> Gurbani quotes , if any, would be welcome. Kindly express your view points and illumine.


 
Why are we worrying sbout what sex does to soul?? 
If there is no love, then sex doesn't do the soul any favours. Without love, it's purely a physical matter to satisfy body and mind. Just as getting high or stoned is. There is NO beneficial relationship at all.

I don't understand why you even question this. The soul, the soul within is affected by love and love only. The love for god is what gives it content.

Sex without love, for physical pleasure just like intoxicants etc.. DESTROYS the SOUL. Don't even think for a minute that it gives benefit to the soul.

A) God-Love-Soul go together and so do B) Mind-Body-Pleasure.
When you mix A with B then the result is damage and decline in one of them, whilst increase and gain in the other.

Someone who is highly spiritual and more embraced in the love of their soul and the god within DOES NOT think about or consider -sex-.
I can't understand why we are discussing this.- Why would the thought or question even cross your mind?????


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## Harry Haller (May 1, 2012)

> Someone who is highly spiritual and more embraced in the love of their soul and the god within DOES NOT think about or consider -sex-.



would such a person be considered a Sikh? Would not that person be heading towards udasi philosophies rather than Sikh?


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## Taranjeet singh (May 1, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> A) God-Love-Soul go together and so do B) Mind-Body-Pleasure.
> When you mix A with B then the result is damage and decline in one of them, whilst increase and gain in the other.
> 
> Someone who is highly spiritual and more embraced in the love of their soul and the god within DOES NOT think about or consider -sex-.
> I can't understand why we are discussing this.- Why would the thought or question even cross your mind?????



Lucky veer ji,

The question was posed to find out if there is any inter-relationship of mind and soul for providing instigation or is it mind only that does the job. I hope it is mind only that instigates to indulge. 

Physical sex does have an effect on the soul or it does not have any effect would be clear if we take up few Tuks of bani and then neutrally analyse.

I am posting below few lines of bani . Per terms of service full sabad can be posted at the end of the thread ,if required. However, relevant links to the page are provided for ease of reference.

1. ang 152

 ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਜੀਅ ਮਹਿ ਚੋਟ ॥ Sexual desire and anger are the wounds of the soul.
ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿ ਚਲੇ ਮਨਿ ਖੋਟ ॥੨॥ ||2|| The evil-minded ones forget the Naam, and then depart. ||2||


http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=152&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&fb=0&k=0

This is the translation picked up from srigranth.org. I believe the translation is incorrect. Instead of 'wound on soul', it should have been 'wound on mind'. This needs to be sorted out.

Guru sahib have employed only kaam and anger and not all five passions here.



2. Ang 4 [Jap Ji sahib]

ਪੁੰਨੀ ਪਾਪੀ ਆਖਣੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥ Virtue and vice do not come by mere words;
ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਣਾ ਲਿਖਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਹੁ  actions repeated, over and over again, are engraved on the soul.
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&fb=0&Param=4

Even in above line it has been stated that our soul does not remain unaffected by our physical deeds. Translation is again from the srigranth.org. Physical acts done time and again are likely to affect the mind and not the soul.

To me soul is divine and should have all the attributes of divinity with it. It cannot be affected by the actions of the body though it is stated that mind and soul are knotted together. Soul is the sparkle of Lord within us and should be immune to what goes on within the body. What do you think.?


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## BhagatSingh (May 1, 2012)

Taranjeet singh said:


> We have been asked to control five lower passions and _inter alia _Kaam/sex happens to be the first one. Sex does have an effect on body. It is wondered if the sex has any effect on the soul. i.e if the soul is hit adversely by this physical activity of the body.
> What is the inter-relationship of body[budhi]mind and soul in this process.
> 
> Gurbani quotes , if any, would be welcome.  Kindly express your view points and illumine.


Taranjeet Singh ji,
It is not sex that is the problem, it is seeking fulfilment from something outside oneself. To seek something other than God one could say. You'll notice this is the common pattern in the the 5 thieves and negativity. They arise when we seek satisfaction in the world. By world I mean both physical and mental worlds.

The soul in reality is unaffected by the world, you know, when we study it in ourselves (at this point, remember the individual is already enlightened). But when seen through our limited perception, it gets affected negatively when we seek fulfilment in the world (maya). The world is constantly changing. Everything is temporary. The fulfilment derived from the world is thus temporary. Since it never finds lasting fulfilment, it is becomes stuck in a constant cycle of seeking fulfilment, acting to fulfill itself, finding temoprary relief from the activity and repeating this mistake (dubidha). It is a vicious cycle that we are stuck in as soon as we enter the world. The more you let the cycle continue the more negatively the soul is affected (bad karma) and the more deeply it goes into the cycle (reincarnation). 

The only way to get out of this is to recognize it the moment(s) it is happening. Put it under the spotlight.


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 1, 2012)

If we go deep into the relationship between SEX and SOUL I feel there is nothing without SEX.Every where and Every time there is SEX and SEX only either at physical level ..mental level or even Spritual Level.
One should find the meaning of the word SAMAGAM or SADH SANGAM ?

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ishna (May 1, 2012)

Taranjeet singh said:


> 1. ang 152
> 
> ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਜੀਅ ਮਹਿ ਚੋਟ ॥ Sexual desire and anger are the wounds of the soul.
> ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿ ਚਲੇ ਮਨਿ ਖੋਟ ॥੨॥ ||2|| The evil-minded ones forget the Naam, and then depart. ||2||
> ...



Choose Manmohan Singh's translation, it makes much more sense:

ਕਾਮੁ  ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ  ਜੀਅ  ਮਹਿ  ਚੋਟ  ॥
 कामु क्रोधु जीअ महि चोट ॥ 
 Kām kroḏẖ jī▫a mėh cẖot. 
 Lust and wrath are the wounds in the mind.


"*LUST *and wrath are the wounds in the MIND"

Remember to make the distinction between lust and sex.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (May 1, 2012)

ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿ ਚਲੇ ਮਨਿ ਖੋਟ ॥੨॥ ||2|| The evil-minded ones forget the Naam, and then depart. ||2||

When the Naam is "forgotten" (visar means neglect/forget/out of mind)...THEN....the KHOT..the Bad /"evil" thoughts etc begin to churn around (in the Mind)... Similar to what is conveyed in..An IDLE MIND..is the DEVIL's WORKSHOP !! Here the Mind is "idle" because its DEVOID of NAM...and its then the devils workshop !!

No idea where the translator got the meaning..DEPART...??? makes no sense in the context ...depart for where ?? who departs ?? and why ??


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## BhagatSingh (May 1, 2012)

100 points to you and Freed Kote Wala teeka. I am loving this teeka, where others fail, it nails! On so many occasions it has provided the accurate translation, where the Gurmukhi words actually align with the translation. Whoever wrote this is pretty awesome. I just wish they could use simpler language haha 

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਜੀਅ ਮਹਿ ਚੋਟ ॥
ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿ ਚਲੇ ਮਨਿ ਖੋਟ ॥੨॥

कामु क्रोधु जीअ महि चोट ॥  
नामु विसारि चले मनि खोट ॥२॥  

Kām kroḏẖ jī▫a mėh cẖot.  
Nām visār cẖale man kẖot. ||2||  

Lust and wrath are the wounds in the mind.  
The evil-minded forget God's Name and depart. 

Teeka:
ਔਰੁ ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਕੀ ਚੋਟ (ਜੀਅ) ਅੰਤਸਕਰਣ ਮੈਂ ਸਹਾਰਤੇ ਹੈਂ॥ ਜੋ ਨਾਮ ਕੋ ਵਿਸਾਰ ਕਰ ਔਰੁ ਕਰਮੋਂ ਮੇ (ਚਲੇ) ਪ੍ਰਵਿਰਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਸੋ ਮਨਕੇ ਖੋਟੇ ਹੈਂ॥੨॥


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## prakash.s.bagga (May 1, 2012)

For better and clear understanding of the meaning of the given line we can look at the full sabad as
ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਦਖਣੀ ॥ ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਮਾਨੈ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਸਦ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੈ ਜਾਉ ॥ ਆਪਿ ਭੁਲਾਏ ਠਉਰ ਨ ਠਾਉ ॥ ਤੂੰ ਸਮਝਾਵਹਿ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਚਲੈ ਮੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਬਾਧੀ ਸਭ ਕਾਲਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਖੇਤੀ ਵਣਜੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਕੀ ਓਟ ॥ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਬੀਜ ਕੀ ਪੋਟ ॥ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਜੀਅ ਮਹਿ ਚੋਟ ॥ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿ ਚਲੇ ਮਨਿ ਖੋਟ ॥੨॥ ਸਾਚੇ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਾਚੀ ਸੀਖ ॥ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਪਰੀਖ ॥ ਜਲ ਪੁਰਾਇਨਿ ਰਸ ਕਮਲ ਪਰੀਖ ॥ ਸਬਦਿ ਰਤੇ ਮੀਠੇ ਰਸ ਈਖ ॥੩॥ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ਗੜਿ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰ ॥ ਪੰਚ ਵਸਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਪਾਰ ॥ ਆਪਿ ਤੁਲੈ ਆਪੇ ਵਣਜਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਵਾਰਣਹਾਰ ॥੪॥੫॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 152

Now one can see the contents of the sabad for the relevent context.
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Archived_member15 (May 1, 2012)

My dear brothers and sisters, 


First of all, let us all reflect on the meaning of Sex.


For me sexuality is a potent and fundamental part of human nature, and a thing of great power. The drive to engage in sexual activity, or at the very least to be on some level a sexual being, is intrinsic to human nature - just like eating or sleeping - not least because on the purely genetic level, the whole point of Life is to thrive and keep on living, which can only happen through the conception of new lifes. 


Sex has two functions: 


1) Procreative Act - it is the means through which life is transmitted and new life comes into being 


2) Unitative act - Sex is the closest physical union between human beings possible on earth. Two bodies literally become one when joined together in this act. It is thus the supreme, earthly icon of Unity and the best metaphor for describing the spiritual experience of Oneness with God. 


The orgasm is the most pleasurable human sensation; pleasurable to the exent that one could say it almosts reaches divine heights. It is thus the best means for describing and understanding spiritual experience - which is why so many mystics of the world's religious traditions, particularly Sufi, have expressed their spiritual relationship with God through the medium of ecstatic, orgasmic bliss and sexual longing. 

The Jewish Kabbalist mystics have a very profound understanding of sexuality which I would like to share with you. While Christian, Hindu and Sufi mystics all used sexual imagery to express their union with God, the Jewish mystics went a step further - they actually developed an awareness of how sex itself can become sacramentalized and constitute a means to Union with the Divine. 




*"The inner purpose of human sexuality is to regain wholeness and manifest the oneness of God"* _- Daniel Chanan Matt (Jewish Zohar translator)_


"...The sexual relationship is in reality a thing of great exaltation when it is appropriate and harmonius...Keep this great secret and do not reveal it to anyone unworthy, for here is where you glimpse the secret of the loftiness of an appropriate sexual relationship..._*When the sexual relation points to the Name*_, there is nothing more righteous or more holy than it..." 


_- Moses ben Nahman (1194-1270 AD), Jewish Kabbalist master_


Now this part should be be arresting for Sikhs: "*When the sexual relation points to the Name, there is nothing more righteous or more holy than it"*

*Yes NOTHING is holier! *

When sex is mutual and self-giving, when the two lovers care not about their own pleasure - solely at least - but about pleasuring the other, then sex can ascend to divine heights. It becomes an act of _seva - mutual, self-sacrificing, self-giving love _and in the sexual act what you have is not only the unity and harmony of the sexes, but an icon of that Higher unity between God and the soul. 

In Kabbalistic Judaism, sexuality in marriage is a metaphor for union with the Divine. On Shabbat Eve - according to Jewish Kabbalist myth - Adonai made love to Matronit, the feminine aspect of deity comparable to the Shekhina and the Ruach Ha-Qodesh or Christian Holy Spirit. Kabbalist Jews thus were encouraged to engage in sex with their spouses on the holiest night of the Jewish Week, whereas in most other religions - for example Islam - one is told to abstain from sex on that night. 


This is because the Kabbalist Jews believed that in the sexual act they were offering up the best possible worship they could give to God through selfless sexual intercourse in reflection of the Divine Love. 


In this way, their sexual intercourse was directed towards _the Name _and became a spiritual act, almost one could say a _sacrament - a visible sign of the invisible Grace of God. _


The "Odes of Solomon" are beautiful hymns from the first or early second century AD and are the inspired work, most likely, of the same community that composed the Gospel of John. In Christian tradition, they were reputed to have been composed by Jesus' disciple Salome, one of his closest female followers. It appears to have God say to the soul: 


_"...Like the arm of the bridegroom over the bride, so is my yoke over those who know me; and as the bridal chamber, the bed that is spread in the house of the bridegroom and bride, so does my love cover those who keep faith with me..."_ - (Odes 42:9-12)


I think it is really charming to picture the love that God has for each one of us and had for his disciples, as being like the love of a bridegroom for his bride with his arms around us, drawing us close to his heart, to engage in an act of love with him within the Bridal Chamber of the soul. 


And our human sexual relationships are called upon to become an earthly model of this divine lovemaking. 


In a number of ancient Christian documents, often mixed in with texts praising chastity or celibacy, we sometimes see those which exalt sex as being sacramental in nature. Often the sacrament of sex is called " The Sacrament of the Bridal Chamber". Holy, spiritual sex is a sarcrament of wholeness, a sacramnet of unitive conciousness as well as unitive bodies. It is called also, the "Sacred Embrace" of the sexes, a sex that is carnal but not only carnal, also spiritual and unititative. 


In Catholicism marriage is a sacrament, and is consummated and made effective only on the wedding night when the spouses make love. This means that we view sex as a visible sign of an invisible Grace from God. 


Thus in the ancient Christian text called _attributed to Philip _we read in saying 64, 


"...What is the bridal chamber [sexual act], if not the place of trust and consciousness in the embrace? It is an icon of Union, beyond all forms of possession; here is where the veil is torn from top to bottom; here is where some arise and awaken...The Sacrament of Marriage is grand...Therefore contemplate the image of sanctified sexual intercourse, for it has great power...Christ comes again to heal the wound [of divided humanity], to rediscover the lost unity, to enliven those who kill themselves in separation, reviving them in union. [The] embrace that incarnates the hidden union... is not only a reality of the flesh, for there is silence in this embrace. It does not arise from impulse or desire; it is an act of will. [We] are reborn by the Christ two by two. In his Breath, we experience a new embrace; we are no longer in duality, but in unity. All will be clothed in light when they enter into the mystery of the sacred embrace. All those who practice the sacred embrace will kindle the light. Those who are to have sex with one another will be satisfied with that sex. And as if it were a burden, they leave behind them the annoyance of physical desire (lust) and they do not separate from each other. They become a single life....For they were originally joined to one another when they were with the Father. This marriage has brought them back together again and the soul has been joined to her true love. If someone experiences Trust and Consciousness in the heart of the embrace, they become a child of light. If someone does not receive these, it is because they remain attached to what they know; when they cease to be attached, they will be able to receive them. Those who are no longer enslaved by (lust) rise above attraction and repulsion. (To do so, however) They must receive a power that is both masculine and feminine [achieve equilibrium] in the bridal chamber [sexual act]. Seek the experience of the pure embrace; it has great power...One shall be clothed with light in the Sacrament of intercourse..."



As the Catholic scholar Leloup points out, the Gospel of Philip envisions a "sacred embrace," which is a sexual union based not on lust, but rather upon the spiritual blending of man and woman. According an ancient saying of Jesus, this spiritual, social and sexual (re)union of male and female is the way in which we return to God and regain our primordial power and wholeness. 

What this ancient Christian text envisions is this: 

Often sex is based upon lust, what the text calls desire and attachment. In such sexual intercourse the goal is divisive rather than unitative, since it is all about self-gratification and self-pleasure. In this kind of sex, what the text calls "carnal intercourse", the true purpose of sexual intercourse as the means for unity between the sexes, as a symbol and potent force of unity and love that ascends to divine heights and becomes is an earthly icon of the Union of the Soul with God, is tarnished and left forgotten. Sex becomes a divisory activity, since it leads to power struggle and abuse of one partner over the other. 

And the result of such brief, lustful sexual intercourse is that the couple, after enganging in the act of love making, separate from each other. The act is purely physical. When the sexual act is over, the connection between them is severed and broken because it is merely physical and fleshly. 

But holy, sacramental sex is the opposite: The sexual act is the fruit of a deep, mutual, emotional relationship between two people who have pledged themselves to each other. When the sexual act is over, the connection between them is not broken, because they are so much in love that in the sexual act they "_become a single life_" and even afterwards they are still one in spirit and in body, as if they were continually making love. In such a sexual relationship the act of sex becomes a true symbol of the self-giving love between the individual soul and God and becomes a means through which two people can grow spiritually. 

Sex thus becomes a holy act through which God leads two people to become spiritually reborn and move towards Union with God through love for each other. 

This is holy, non-attached, non-lustful, mutual, self-giving, loving sexual intercourse. 

The kind of relationship within which this kind of holy sex life is lived was beautifully explained by the Catholic Church Father Tertullian: 


"...How shall we ever be able adequately to describe the happiness of that marriage which the Church arranges, the Sacrifice strengthens, upon which the blessing sets a seal?...How beautiful, then, the marriage of two [people], two who are one in hope, one in desire, one in the way of life they follow...They are as brother and sister, both servants of the same Master. Nothing divides them, either in flesh or in spirit. They are, in very truth, two in one flesh; and where there is but one flesh there is also but one spirit. They pray together, they worship together, they fast together; instructing one another, encouraging one another, strengthening one another. Side by side they visit God’s church and partake of God’s Banquet; side by side they face difficulties and persecution, share their consolations. They have no secrets from one another; they never shun each other’s company; they never bring sorrow to each other’s hearts. Unembarrassed they visit the sick and assist the needy. They give alms without anxiety; they attend the Sacrifice without difficulty; they perform their daily exercises of piety without hindrance. They need not be furtive about making the Sign of the Cross, nor timorous in greeting the brethren, nor silent in asking a blessing of God. Psalms and hymns they sing to one another, striving to see which one of them will chant more beautifully the praises of their Lord. Hearing and seeing this, God rejoices. To such as these He gives His peace. Where there are two together, there also He is present; and where He is, there evil is not..."

_(Tertullian, Church Father, ca. 160 – ca. 220 A.D)_ 



In this kind of relationship, sex is for me holy, vivifying, sacramental and intensely spiritual. And by this I mean not just a marital relationship per se but any committed, mutual, loving sexual relationship 


"...Love consists not in feeling great things but in having great detachment [from oneself] and in suffering for the Beloved...All for you [Beloved] and nothing for me..." 


_- Saint John of the Cross (1542 – 1591), Catholic mystic_


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (May 1, 2012)

> Choose Manmohan Singh's translation, it makes much more sense:
> 
> ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਜੀਅ ਮਹਿ ਚੋਟ ॥
> Lust and wrath are the wounds in the Mind[-Soul.]


 
Isi where have you been ,I missed your honest perspectives and your tantrums,the best translation is that feels right in your deepest Self[Spiritual heart]


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## Astroboy (May 1, 2012)

The purpose of Gurbani is to gradually uplift us to understand our true selves, as Soul - Jeev. Although, the gradual transition of understanding does make references to the self as "Heh Manna". 

The following verse from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Page 153 Line 3 to 9 however shows a clear distinction between the mind and Soul.

<table style="width: 596px; height: 1367px;" cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr></tr><tr><td>  ਗਉੜੀ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੧  ॥ 
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 1. 
Gauree, First Mehl: 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਕਾਮੁ  ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ  ਮਾਇਆ  ਮਹਿ  ਚੀਤੁ  ॥

Kām kroḏẖ mā▫i▫ā mėh cẖīṯ. 
The conscious mind is engrossed in sexual desire, anger and Maya. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਝੂਠ  ਵਿਕਾਰਿ  ਜਾਗੈ  ਹਿਤ  ਚੀਤੁ  ॥

Jẖūṯẖ vikār jāgai hiṯ cẖīṯ. 
The conscious mind is awake only to falsehood, corruption and attachment. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਪੂੰਜੀ  ਪਾਪ  ਲੋਭ  ਕੀ  ਕੀਤੁ  ॥

Pūnjī pāp lobẖ kī kīṯ. 
It gathers in the assets of sin and greed. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਤਰੁ  ਤਾਰੀ  ਮਨਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਸੁਚੀਤੁ  ॥੧॥

Ŧar ṯārī man nām sucẖīṯ. ||1|| 
So swim across the river of life, O my mind, with the Sacred Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||1|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਵਾਹੁ  ਵਾਹੁ  ਸਾਚੇ  ਮੈ  ਤੇਰੀ  ਟੇਕ  ॥

vāhu vāhu sācẖe mai ṯerī tek. 
Waaho! Waaho! - Great! Great is my True Lord! I seek Your All-powerful Support. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਹਉ  ਪਾਪੀ  ਤੂੰ  ਨਿਰਮਲੁ  ਏਕ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 


Ha▫o pāpī ṯūŉ nirmal ek. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
I am a sinner - You alone are pure. ||1||Pause|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਅਗਨਿ  ਪਾਣੀ  ਬੋਲੈ  ਭੜਵਾਉ  ॥

Agan pāṇī bolai bẖaṛvā▫o. 
Fire and water join together, and the breath roars in its fury! 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਜਿਹਵਾ  ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ  ਏਕੁ  ਸੁਆਉ  ॥ 


Jihvā inḏrī ek su▫ā▫o. 
The tongue and the sex organs each seek to taste. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਦਿਸਟਿ  ਵਿਕਾਰੀ  ਨਾਹੀ  ਭਉ  ਭਾਉ  ॥ 


Ḏisat vikārī nāhī bẖa▫o bẖā▫o. 
The eyes which look upon corruption do not know the Love and the Fear of God. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਆਪੁ  ਮਾਰੇ  ਤਾ  ਪਾਏ  ਨਾਉ  ॥੨॥ 


Āp māre ṯā pā▫e nā▫o. ||2|| 
Conquering self-conceit, one obtains the Name. ||2|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਸਬਦਿ  ਮਰੈ  ਫਿਰਿ  ਮਰਣੁ  ਨ  ਹੋਇ  ॥

Sabaḏ marai fir maraṇ na ho▫e. 
One who dies in the Word of the Shabad, shall never again have to die. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਬਿਨੁ  ਮੂਏ  ਕਿਉ  ਪੂਰਾ  ਹੋਇ  ॥ 


Bin mū▫e ki▫o pūrā ho▫e. 
Without such a death, how can one attain perfection? 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਪਰਪੰਚਿ  ਵਿਆਪਿ  ਰਹਿਆ  ਮਨੁ  ਦੋਇ  ॥

Parpancẖ vi▫āp rahi▫ā man ḏo▫e. 
The mind is engrossed in deception, treachery and duality. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਥਿਰੁ  ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ  ਕਰੇ  ਸੁ  ਹੋਇ  ॥੩॥

Thir nārā▫iṇ kare so ho▫e. ||3|| 
Whatever the Immortal Lord does, comes to pass. ||3|| 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਬੋਹਿਥਿ  ਚੜਉ  ਜਾ  ਆਵੈ  ਵਾਰੁ  ॥ 


Bohith cẖaṛa▫o jā āvai vār. 
So get aboard that boat when your turn comes. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਠਾਕੇ  ਬੋਹਿਥ  ਦਰਗਹ  ਮਾਰ  ॥ 
ठाके बोहिथ दरगह मार ॥ 
Ŧẖāke bohith ḏargėh mār. 
Those who fail to embark upon that boat shall be beaten in the Court of the Lord. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਸਚੁ  ਸਾਲਾਹੀ  ਧੰਨੁ  ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰੁ  ॥

Sacẖ sālāhī ḏẖan gurḏu▫ār. 
Blessed is that Gurdwara, the Guru's Gate, where the Praises of the True Lord are sung. 
   </td></tr> <tr><td>  ਨਾਨਕ  ਦਰਿ  ਘਰਿ  ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ  ॥੪॥੭॥

Nānak ḏar gẖar ekankār. ||4||7|| 
O Nanak, the One Creator Lord is pervading hearth and home. ||4||7|| 

In the above shabad, mind is looked upon an indulger, and then, who is the master of the mind? Soul of course. So this shabad clearly distinguishes the difference between the indulging nature of the mind and the observer, Soul for whom this shabad is written. 
  </td></tr></tbody></table>


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