# Sikhism And Apostasy



## Jasdeep118 (Feb 12, 2016)

Alright, I am just wondering whats Sikhism reaction to Apostasy, because I heard that for Islam that they kill those who leave their faith? I know that Sikhism doesn't do that, but what do they do when someone leaves their faith? Also, I am not leaving Sikhism I am just wondering.


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## Joginder Singh Foley (Feb 12, 2016)

*WGKK-WGKF *

This Sikh's opinion is to consider someone who leaves Sikhi the biggest idiot that Guruji put on this planet and let them get on with their lives and hope they themselves will see sense and return to the path of Sikhi like I believe the last Sikh ruler after the brits gained control of the Punjab who saw the error of his ways returned to Sikhi and tried to return to India


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 12, 2016)

Jasdeep118 said:


> Alright, I am just wondering whats Sikhism reaction to Apostasy, because I heard that for Islam that they kill those who leave their faith? I know that Sikhism doesn't do that, but what do they do when someone leaves their faith? Also, I am not leaving Sikhism I am just wondering.


Jasdeep118 ji thanks for your post.

The Sikhism at its core does not in general believe in retribution other than in self defense of oneself, one's family (including SGGSJ) and for others who could not defend themselves. There is generally one exception in practice and that relates to people who have great influence, who could cause cause great harm to Sikhs in general or the essence of Sikhi. The Takhats can take up these matters and classify some people as "persona non grata" from a Sikhism perspective. But it is not common and has not proven very effective when exercised.

Sikh Rehat Maryada further elaborates that the onus is on a Sikh to come to sangat (congregation) if they feel they have done something worthy of forgiveness or guidance.

Otherwise inclusion is the guiding light and not exclusion or retribution.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## ActsOfGod (Feb 12, 2016)

Jasdeep118 said:


> Alright, I am just wondering whats Sikhism reaction to Apostasy, because I heard that for Islam that they kill those who leave their faith? I know that Sikhism doesn't do that, but what do they do when someone leaves their faith? Also, I am not leaving Sikhism I am just wondering.



Bid them farewell and good luck?

Or maybe say, "you'll be baaaaaack!"

Generally, the most severe thing is to not have any further contact with the apostates.  But that's usually about it.

What would be the point in forcing someone to follow the faith if they don't really want to?  I doubt such things can even be forced anyway.

[AoG]


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Feb 13, 2016)

Part One. The apostate is from a Punjabi Sikh family (and unmarried):
People who leave Sikhi generally leave mata ji in tears, papa ji angry, and siblings confused. The sangat will comfort the parents and mouth platitudes behind their backs. If the leaver (apostate has a nasty sound) is keshdhari and cuts the kesh, double the reactions in the previous sentence. If the leaver is a Singh and keeps his kesh, but not his turban, he has become a hippie and your guess is as good as mine.

If the leaver converts to another religion,ie, Christianity and goes into politics, but continues to visit the gurudwara from time to time, with her family,  the person is not confused, most likely just hypocritical. And Republican (USA). And angling for a Vice Presidential nomination.

Part Two: The apostate is not from a Punjabi Sikh family...to be continued


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## Harry Haller (Feb 13, 2016)

Jasdeep118 said:


> Alright, I am just wondering whats Sikhism reaction to Apostasy, because I heard that for Islam that they kill those who leave their faith? I know that Sikhism doesn't do that, but what do they do when someone leaves their faith? Also, I am not leaving Sikhism I am just wondering.



Sikhism is not like other religions, one can be a Sikh and not even know it, for every person that claims the truth, for every person that looks deep inside and finds their true self, that is another Sikh, for every person that makes it their life to be consonance with the world, that is another Sikh, Sikhism is a way of life, not a faith, it is not some social club where people meet every sunday in big expensive cars, wearing lots of gold, just to socialise, gossip and try and outdo each other, and then sit bored until its time to eat. If your asking what happens when people stop helping, stop giving, stop having empathy with the rest of the world, then they lose out on that feeling of belonging and consonance with Creation, if your asking what happens when people leave the sunday club, that is another story!


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## Ishna (Feb 13, 2016)

Technically I've become an apostate so many times....  but keep coming back stronger in my "faith" every time.  If the community treated me badly upon leaving, or returning after a period of leave, then I'd be lost forever.

There is mercy in the way Sikhi handles it for outsiders.  I don't know about those in Punjabi families, though.


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 13, 2016)

If Learning, Unlearning and Relearning is Apostasy in Sikhi, then all of us who call ourselves Sikhs are Apostates.


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## Jasdeep118 (Feb 13, 2016)

Well, for me I am at that phase when you doubt god's existence, for me I believe in god, but I am not sure if he exists. Alright, so pretty much you don't get punished for leaving Sikhism, but you leave your faith, correct? I am just heavily confused, when a Muslim leaves their faith they get killed, while when a Christian leaves their faith, they say they are sent to, "hell". What about us? Do we burn in hell, or stoned what?


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Feb 13, 2016)

I doubt the existence of Deity on a regular basis. I no longer let this bother me. There is no way to KNOW. It is all belief and I find it generally easier and more natural for me to believe than not to. 
I think belief or unbelief isn't nearly as important as being honest about it. I remember reading in a Catholic book when I was a teenager that the first and most important thing is "Don't lie to God." That's not as easy as it sounds. I have felt on occasion, the need to address my prayers to "whoever is listening" or "Ik Onkaar, if you really exist." At other times I am 99.99% certain that the One does indeed exist and cares. I have never been able to convince myself that there's no one out there or in here or wherever it is. I guess you could say that my belief oscillates between uncertainty of about 50% up to 99.99%, which averages out to about 75%, which isn't great but it's still a passing grade.

Also more important than belief or not belief is how I live my life. I think living as a decent person who tries to follow the Sikh ethos and make this world a better place - and has periods of uncertainty - is way better than being really certain and being a corrupt leader. 

What fate awaits the Sikh who dies in a state of not belief? Who knows? Certainly not me. I've died a couple times and really didn't want to come back here, but I wasn't disbelieving at that time, so I just don't know. I do know that it makes no sense at all to either condemn or reward a person on the basis of hir whim at the moment of death. And Sikhi is a most logical religion, as religions go.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 14, 2016)

Jasdeep118 said:


> Well, for me I am at that phase when you doubt god's existence, for me I believe in god, but I am not sure if he exists. Alright, so pretty much you don't get punished for leaving Sikhism, but you leave your faith, correct? I am just heavily confused, when a Muslim leaves their faith they get killed, while when a Christian leaves their faith, they say they are sent to, "hell". What about us? Do we burn in hell, or stoned what?



I don't believe in god, not the beardy sandal wearing all powerful angry and jealous chap anyway, I believe in Ek Onkar, which is present in everything and all, and can be interacted with, and bonded with, what happens when I stop believing in this? Oh easy, I start moving towards the darkness instead of the light. However, you need to know what is dark, and what is light, I observe many that are convinced they are moving to the light, when in fact, in my opinion, they are mired in darkness, but then there are plenty that live in the dark, dragging others to the light, its complicated, but makes more sense than a deity, to me, anyway


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Feb 14, 2016)

harry haller said:


> I don't believe in god, not the beardy sandal wearing all powerful angry and jealous chap anyway, I believe in Ek Onkar, which is present in everything and all, and can be interacted with, and bonded with, what happens when I stop believing in this? Oh easy, I start moving towards the darkness instead of the light. However, you need to know what is dark, and what is light, I observe many that are convinced they are moving to the light, when in fact, in my opinion, they are mired in darkness, but then there are plenty that live in the dark, dragging others to the light, its complicated, but makes more sense than a deity, to me, anyway


If I believed in that fellow, I'd be a Christian or a  Muslim or a Jew, not a Sikh.To be truthful, that god scares me and I wonder that anyone calls him (definitely male) a loving father.The Sikh vision of the One is not only a lot nicer, but also a lot more believable, at least to me.
I remember a Christian friend clicking her tongue over this and asking,
"But what if you're wrong?"
Only one possible answer, "Then I'm screwed."


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## Harry Haller (Feb 14, 2016)

If I am wrong, I am screwed too, but frankly, I would rather be screwed and spend eternity in hell, than live in what passes for Abrahamic heaven.

I've been screwed all my life, why should death make any difference, I am a Sikh, sticks, stones and eternal damnation don't scare me, I've been married to a celt, I know no fear.


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## Joginder Singh Foley (Feb 14, 2016)

Tejwant Singh said:


> If Learning, Unlearning and Relearning is Apostasy in Sikhi, then all of us who call ourselves Sikhs are Apostates.



*WGKK-WGKF *
Learning It is like us engineers say you may have finished your apprenticship or degree but you are learning untill the day you retire. Likewise I feel that as a Sikh you are always learning you may even be an Arithardi Singh or Singhni but you will still be learning Sikhi untill the day Guriji calls you on to the next cycle of life or Sach Kand


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## Harry Haller (Feb 14, 2016)

I quite like those who feel they have stopped learning, they are very entertaining!


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Feb 14, 2016)

harry haller said:


> If I am wrong, I am screwed too, but frankly, I would rather be screwed and spend eternity in hell, than live in what passes for Abrahamic heaven.
> 
> I've been screwed all my life, why should death make any difference, I am a Sikh, sticks, stones and eternal damnation don't scare me, I've been married to a celt, I know no fear.


One way to look at it is that we are all screwed. The thing for me is that if I live with that attitude, life is completely meaningless and no fun at all and, as you know, girls just wanna have fun. I must admit that the picture of harry ji flitting around heaven with big white wings and a long white gown playing hymns on a golden harp for all eternity does hold a certain appeal for me, but, in all honesty, ANYTHING for all eternity would consist primarily of boredom. We are restless creatures, or at least I am; I dasn't speak for you.


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Feb 14, 2016)

Joginder Singh Foley said:


> *WGKK-WGKF *
> Learning It is like us engineers say you may have finished your apprenticship or degree but you are learning untill the day you retire. Likewise I feel that as a Sikh you are always learning you may even be an Arithardi Singh or Singhni but you will still be learning Sikhi untill the day Guriji calls you on to the next cycle of life or Sach Kand


Accepting Amrit is the beginning of an adventure, a first step, not the graduation and, in my experience, most Amritdhari Sikhs know and accept this, although a few act as if they forget it from time to time.


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## ActsOfGod (Feb 14, 2016)

Jasdeep118 said:


> Well, for me I am at that phase when you doubt god's existence, for me I believe in god, but I am not sure if he exists. Alright, so pretty much you don't get punished for leaving Sikhism, but you leave your faith, correct? I am just heavily confused, when a Muslim leaves their faith they get killed, while when a Christian leaves their faith, they say they are sent to, "hell". What about us? Do we burn in hell, or stoned what?



If you are worried about consequences, it will probably be more from your family rather than anyone else.

No hell, no stoning, nothing like that.

Just separation from the Source.

Which is probably more than the soul can bear.

But its all about your internal connection with the Creator.

Its an inside job.

It's fine if you don't believe in God.  It's just the current stage of your spiritual evolution.

What's your current understanding of God?

[AoG]


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## Tejwant Singh (Feb 14, 2016)

Jasdeep118 said:


> Alright, I am just wondering whats Sikhism reaction to Apostasy, because I heard that for Islam that they kill those who leave their faith? I know that Sikhism doesn't do that, but what do they do when someone leaves their faith? Also, I am not leaving Sikhism I am just wondering.



Jasdeep ji,

Guru Fateh.

When one studies the Mool Mantar, one finds that Ik Ong Kaar, who being  Nirbhau and Nirvair can not have any link with apostasy nor can Sikhi have rewards and punishment in the way of hell and heaven like Abrahamic, Hinduism  and other religions.

It is just you and The Source without any broker in between.


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## kds1980 (Feb 16, 2016)

Jasdeep118 said:


> Alright, I am just wondering whats Sikhism reaction to Apostasy, because I heard that for Islam that they kill those who leave their faith? I know that Sikhism doesn't do that, but what do they do when someone leaves their faith? Also, I am not leaving Sikhism I am just wondering.


According to puaratan rehats , the sikhs who broke their amrit were considered as apostates and other  Amritdhari sikhs  were not associate with that person


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Feb 16, 2016)

kds1980 said:


> According to puaratan rehats , the sikhs who broke their amrit were considered as apostates and other  Amritdhari sikhs  were not associate with that person


Such people are called "patit." They can, however, take Amrit again and then all is forgiven.


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## Joginder Singh Foley (Feb 17, 2016)

*WGKK-WGKF*


The point Sikhi does not have a death penalty for apostates and I believe that an apostate can re-embrace Sikhi if he or she shows genuine remorse


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Feb 17, 2016)

Joginder Singh Foley said:


> *WGKK-WGKF*
> 
> 
> The point Sikhi does not have a death penalty for apostates and I believe that an apostate can re-embrace Sikhi if he or she shows genuine remorse


Yes, exactly.  If the "apostate" was Amritdhari, it is necessary for her/him to take Amrit again.


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## Harry Haller (Feb 18, 2016)

if they were a dwarf, would they be a petite patit?


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## Joginder Singh Foley (Feb 18, 2016)

Harryji maybe we should start a "Best really funny Sikh joke" thread??


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## Harry Haller (Feb 18, 2016)

Joginder Singh Foley said:


> Harryji maybe we should start a "Best really funny Sikh joke" thread??



ok what about an apostate Sikh, quite short, who works with clay for a living, smoking a joint, quite fat, 

which would make him or her a Portly Pothead Patit Petite Potter!


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## Ishna (Feb 18, 2016)

The Sikh Rehat Maryada describes who Sikhs can't associate with, and what happens to an Amritdhari who "transgresses".

In reality, what the SRM says is gentler than what Gurbani says.  A manmukh literally wastes their life - and the opportunity won't come again.


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## Ishna (Feb 18, 2016)

I just noticed this article from the Huffington Post...

*'Goodbye Forever': How Religion Treats Apostates*
01/05/2016 08:17 am ET | Updated Jan 05, 2016 Link

Aman Punia is 24. His name, Aman, means "peace." He was raised in a devout Sikh home in India.

Sikhism is a monotheistic religion with roots in Hinduism and Islam. It dates back to religious reformers in the late 1400s. Sikhs -- a Sanskrit word that means "disciples" or "learners" -- believe in equality among human beings and among religions. Their honored founder, Guru Nanak, is famous for proclaiming that "there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim."

Sikh men commit themselves to The Five Ks -- Kesh, Kangha, Kara, Kachera, and Kirpan. That first one, the Kesh, requires Sikh men to keep their hair unshorn, their beards untrimmed, and their heads covered by a _dastaar_ (a turban), a crown of devotion to remind Sikh men that their lives are to be pious, consecrated to God, and courageous. The Kesh ritual is fundamental in the life of a Sikh man.

When Aman Punia, who is now an atheist, chose to cut his hair, trim his beard, and remove his turban, some among his family and friends felt let down, hurt, even betrayed. As he posted at the Facebook page of Atheist Republic:






Unfortunately, religion doesn't handle unbelievers well and it handles "apostasy" even less well. Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowship members who stop following the doctrines of the Governing Body; the Amish shun deserters; St. Paul urged the Corinthians to "turn over to Satan" a congregation member who was not observing the sexual mores of the early Christians; and, in the most extreme manifestation of religious totalitarianism, ISIS beheads members of other faiths and even fellow Muslims who don't see things their way.

Former Sikhs like Aman -- former Christians and former Muslims, too -- primarily wish to be left alone to believe or not believe, as reason and conscience dictate. Aman no longer believes the supernatural tenets of the religion of his youth. He no longer wears a turban. But he still loves his family and friends and India's larger Sikh community. He hopes for reconciliation. He hopes for peace. That's why he's called Aman.

_Rodney Wilson holds master's degrees in history and in religion. He teaches both at a community college in Missouri. _​
The inaccuracies around Sikhi in the article make me scoff at Mr Wilson's qualification...


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## ActsOfGod (Feb 19, 2016)

Admin Kaur said:


> Aman no longer believes the supernatural tenets of the religion of his youth. He no longer wears a turban. But he still loves his family and friends and India's larger Sikh community. He hopes for reconciliation. He hopes for peace. That's why he's called Aman.
> 
> _Rodney Wilson holds master's degrees in history and in religion. He teaches both at a community college in Missouri._​



This is hilarious!


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## Ishna (Feb 19, 2016)

ActsOfGod said:


> This is hilarious!



ikr??!!!


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## Inderjeet Kaur (May 15, 2019)

ActsOfGod said:


> This is hilarious!


I am reputed to have a fairly good sense of humor, but I see nothing funny here except possibly that it was written by some guy who is not Sikh and  obviously has no grasp of what Sikhi is about.


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