# Worst Places In The World To Be A Woman



## Enlighten Me (Jun 15, 2011)

Patriarchal and misogynistic attitudes allow women to fall victim to domestic violence, rape, acid attacks, abuse and exploitation all over the world. 


The worst places to be a woman:

1 - Afghanistan     Afghan women resort to self-immolation
2 - The Democratic Republic of the Congo   Congo, 'rape capital of the world'
3 - Pakistan   A Pakistani acid attack victim fights for justice
4 - India     Domestic violence endemic in India
5 - Somalia   'No woman in Somalia happy to be a woman'

         Targeted violence against female public officials, dismal healthcare and desperate poverty make Afghanistan the world's most dangerous country in which to be born a woman, according to a global survey released on Wednesday.

The Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), Pakistan, India and Somalia feature in descending order after Afghanistan in the list of the five worst states, the poll among gender experts shows.

The  appearance of India, a country rapidly developing into an economic  super-power, was unexpected. It is ranked as extremely hazardous because  of the subcontinent's high level of female infanticide and sex  trafficking.

Others were less surprised to be on the list.  Informed about her country's inclusion, Somalia's women's minister,  Maryan Qasim, responded: "I thought Somalia would be first on the list,  not fifth."

The survey has been compiled by the Thomson Reuters Foundation to mark the launch of a website, TrustLaw Woman, aimed at providing free legal advice for women's groups around the world.

High maternal mortality  rates, limited access to doctors and a "near total lack of economic  rights" render Afghanistan such a threat to its female inhabitants.  "Continuing conflict, Nato airstrikes and cultural practices combine to  make Afghanistan a very dangerous place for women," said Antonella  Notari, head of Women Change Makers, a group that supports women social entrepreneurs around the world.

"Women  who do attempt to speak out or take on public roles that challenge  ingrained gender stereotypes of what is acceptable for women to do or  not, such as working as policewomen or news broadcasters, are often  intimidated or killed."

The "staggering levels of sexual violence"  in the lawless east of the DRC account for its second place in the  list. One recent US study claimed that more than 400,000 women are raped  there each year. The UN has called Congo the rape capital of the world.

"Rights  activists say militia groups and soldiers target all ages, including  girls as young as three and elderly women," the survey reports, "They  are gang raped, raped with bayonets and some have guns shot into their  vaginas."

Pakistan is ranked third on the basis of cultural,  tribal and religious practices harmful to women. "These include acid  attacks, child and forced marriage and punishment or retribution by  stoning or other physical abuse," the poll finds.

Divya Bajpai, reproductive health adviser at the International HIV/Aids Alliance,  added: "Pakistan has some of the highest rates of dowry murder,  so-called honour killings and early marriage." According to Pakistan's human rights commission, as many as 1,000 women and girls die in honour killings annually.

India  is the fourth most dangerous country. "India's central bureau of  investigation estimated that in 2009 about 90% of trafficking took place  within the country and that there were some 3 million prostitutes, of  which about 40% were children," the survey found. 

Forced marriage  and forced labour trafficking add to the dangers for women. "Up to 50  million girls are thought to be 'missing' over the past century due to  female infanticide and foeticide,", the UN population fund says, because  parents prefer to have young boys rather than girls.

Somalia, a  state in political disintegration, suffers high levels of maternal  mortality, rape, female genital mutilation and limited access to  education and healthcare. Qasim added: "The most dangerous thing a  woman in Somalia can do is to become pregnant. When a woman becomes  pregnant her life is 50-50 because there is no antenatal care at all.  There are no hospitals, no healthcare, no nothing.

"Add to that  the rape cases that happen on a daily basis, and female genital  mutilation being done to every single girl in Somalia. Add to that  famine and drought. Add to that the fighting [which means] you can die  any minute, any day."

Monique Villa, the chief executive of the  Thomson Reuters Foundation, said: "Hidden dangers – like a lack of  education or terrible access to healthcare – are as deadly, if not more  so, than physical dangers like rape and murder which usually grab the  headlines.

"In Afghanistan, for instance, women have a one in 11  chance of dying in childbirth. In the top five countries, basic human  rights are systematically denied to women.

"Empowering women  tackles the very roots of poverty. In the developing world when a woman  works, her children are better fed and better educated because they  spend their money for their family."

The survey was based on  responses from more than 200 aid professionals, academics, health  workers, policymakers, journalists and development specialists chosen  for their expertise in gender issues.

Each country was also ranked  in terms of six risk factors including: health, discrimination and lack  of access to resources, cultural and religious practices, sexual  violence, human trafficking and conflict-related violence.

In  terms of individual risk categories, Afghanistan was deemed to be the  most dangerous for health, economic/discrimination and non-sexual  violence; the Congo is most plagued by rape and sexual violence; and  India has most problems with trafficking.

"You have to look at all  the dangers to women, all the risks women and girls face," said  Elisabeth Roesch, who works on gender-based violence for the  International Rescue Committee in Washington. "If a woman can't access healthcare because her healthcare isn't prioritised, that can be a very dangerous situation as well."

The  TrustLaw website has been in existence for some time, linking up local  NGOs and social entrepreneurs with established law firms who are  prepared to offer legal advice on a pro-bono basis. The groups are  vetted by Transparency International.

More than 450 law firms are  already involved including some from China. Among those that have  recently benefited have been the charity Riders for Health, which delivers medicine to remote villages, and reviewed its contracts in Nigeria.


_Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/15/worst-place-women-afghanistan-india_


It seems as though we still have a long way to go until women stop fighting for 'equality' and basic human rights which should be innate.


----------



## Ishna (Jun 15, 2011)

So what is the Sikh interpretation of such terrible occurences happening in the world?  Is the woman shot in the vagina with a gun or raped with a bayonet just paying for her past life karma?  I find that really hard to believe.

I really struggle to see how Sikhism can put this sort of horror into context.  Please, enlighten me.  :}--}:

It is very difficult for me to sit here in the comfort of my home, happily reading my nitnem, basking in the feelings of closeness to the divine (however imagined they might be), while this sort of things goes on, and realise that the very Thing I'm trying to connect to (the Primal Source) is also the primal source of such vile creatures and vile actions.

I find myself asking, why the heck bother to worship something which has created and allows this sort of thing to continue.

And please, no "you're confusing Waheguru with the Abrahamic God" comments, please.


----------



## findingmyway (Jun 15, 2011)

Sikhs should stand up and fight against these injustices. Sikhs should help these women. That is where Sikhi comes in.


----------



## spnadmin (Jun 15, 2011)

Ishna said:


> So what is the Sikh interpretation of such terrible occurences happening in the world?  Is the woman shot in the vagina with a gun or raped with a bayonet just paying for her past life karma?  I find that really hard to believe.
> 
> I really struggle to see how Sikhism can put this sort of horror into context.  Please, enlighten me.  :}--}:
> 
> ...



Atrocities have been visited on the weak by the powerful, and on the weak by the weak, for centuries with no sign of ending. Advocacy and speaking out, actively lobbying, becoming a force for good....all important, and all necessary. But if these were the sole cures, these problems of abuse of women would have ended long ago (as would abuse against children, animals, the disabled and the poor). They haven't. They are still with us. The place to start is with ourselves.  Each individual, who is trying to perfect his/her own soul's journey toward the divine, is one more person turning the wheel of dharma in the direction of what is right, and one less person turning that wheel of dharma away from what is wrong. It starts and ends with you. "happily reading nitnem, basking in feelings of closeness to the divine," is how to combat atrocities. That is how Guru Nanak started.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

ISHNA JI..there is no such thing as karma and all that..
SIKHS only kill female children in the WOMB.....and maybe BURN a few Brides whose parents committed the sin of not borrowing enough to give dowry of enough "muulah".. scooters instead of cars.???.Tractors and a few acres of land..bungalow in the city ??.etc..
The First sin of Womb Murder is so that they DONT have to GIVE what they DEMAND of others !!!


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

AND one more rather intriguing fact...
Guru nanak ji and SGGS accords WOMAN the HIGHEST status, respect and Love...YET WOMEN are the BIGGEST REASON for the proliferation of the ANTI_SGGS, DERAS all over PUNJAB. Women are the vast MAJORITY attendees of these FAKE Babas and their deras..taksaals....
Woemn seem to be their own "worst enemies"....Its the WOMEN who force other women to MURDER their unborn children..the dadee..granny..mother in law..elder ones..FORCE the daughter in law to ABORT..or torture the new bride..etc..
IN ISLAM its the WOMEN who are strongest advocates of burqa, veils, obeying their husbands t the extent of being slaves and sex slaves too...they accept everything the man does as Allah Ordained...


----------



## Ishna (Jun 15, 2011)

How childish will it sound if I say "men started it"? It's not usually the women becoming the sants, etc.

But what I'm really interested in is how a Sikh can see the atrocities thar happen in the world and rationalize it in the Sikh belief system. 

We can't blame an evil force like Satan. In fact, even the followers of religions which do believe in Satan acknowledge that Satan only exists because God allows it to exist. 

Of course Sikhs don't believe in Satan. For a Sikh, all there is is Ik Oankar, Karta Purakh. The same Truth is everywhere, the Naam is the support of all things, and the existence of evil rapist torturer ba$tards is Written.  It's hard to fathom and hard to accept.

It's hard to reconcile the fact that Naam is as much circling around those inhuman ***wipes as it is around you and I and the pedo wife beater next door. What's the point of tuning in to that then?


----------



## spnadmin (Jun 15, 2011)

ishna ji

I am not sure I understand what you mean



> But what I'm really interested in is how a Sikh can see the atrocities thar happen in the world and rationalize it in the Sikh belief system.



I am tempted to say that a Sikh who rationalizes atrocities is sorely mislead and misleading others too. But maybe I need an example or two, or more specifics. It seems to me that many if not most religions have used religion to rationalize atrocities, often with the explanation of karma and/or God's will. In actuality, the root causes are greed, lust for power, or ego's need for social status and social respectability. When I see that or read about religiously sponsored atrocities, I cannot help thinking that the primitive layer is much deeper in humankind that we as humans are able to admit. Religion, which can be a force for moral growth of individuals and societies, sinks to something base and ugly because the same primitive instincts have overpowered large segments of members of most religions and their leaders.


----------



## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

> So what is the Sikh interpretation of such terrible occurences happening in the world? Is the woman shot in the vagina with a gun or raped with a bayonet just paying for her past life karma? I find that really hard to believe.



Remember all the atrocities by evil kings on our Guru Sahib. He accepted them as Will of God. How God chooses is hard to understand. There are so many things about God beyond our understanding.



> I really struggle to see how Sikhism can put this sort of horror into context. Please, enlighten me.



Read this pauree:


ਅਸੰਖ ਮੂਰਖ ਅੰਧ ਘੋਰ ॥ 
Countless fools, blinded by ignorance. 

ਅਸੰਖ ਚੋਰ ਹਰਾਮਖੋਰ ॥ 
Countless thieves and embezzlers. 

ਅਸੰਖ ਅਮਰ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਜੋਰ ॥ 
Countless impose their will by force. 

ਅਸੰਖ ਗਲਵਢ ਹਤਿਆ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥ 
Countless cut-throats and ruthless killers. 

ਅਸੰਖ ਪਾਪੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥ 
Countless sinners who keep on sinning. 

ਅਸੰਖ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਕੂੜੇ ਫਿਰਾਹਿ ॥ 
Countless liars, wandering lost in their lies. 

ਅਸੰਖ ਮਲੇਛ ਮਲੁ ਭਖਿ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ 
Countless wretches, eating filth as their ration. 

ਅਸੰਖ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਸਿਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਭਾਰੁ ॥ 
Countless slanderers, carrying the weight of their stupid mistakes on their heads. 

ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਕਹੈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
Nanak describes the state of the lowly. 

ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ ਏਕ ਵਾਰ ॥ 
I cannot even once be a sacrifice to You. 

ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਕਾਰ ॥ 
Whatever pleases You is the only good done, 

ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥੧੮॥ 
You, Eternal and Formless One. ||18|| 



> It is very difficult for me to sit here in the comfort of my home, happily reading my nitnem, basking in the feelings of closeness to the divine (however imagined they might be), while this sort of things goes on, and realise that the very Thing I'm trying to connect to (the Primal Source) is also the primal source of such vile creatures and vile actions.



In war, the commander gives out battle plans to soldiers. But sometimes some soldiers start doing their own thinking, giving up on orders. Sometimes this can cost a lot of lives for foolishness of soldier. Here people are doing as they please without listening to God. Can you blame God?



> I find myself asking, why the heck bother to worship something which has created and allows this sort of thing to continue.



You can't accept one aspect of life (or God) and reject others.



> But what I'm really interested in is how a Sikh can see the atrocities thar happen in the world and rationalize it in the Sikh belief system.



Any Sikh who sees such an atrocity happening should revolt, and defend the helpless. There is no rationalization for such things.



> Of course Sikhs don't believe in Satan. For a Sikh, all there is is Ik Oankar, Karta Purakh. The same Truth is everywhere, the Naam is the support of all things, and the existence of evil rapist torturer ba$tards is Written. It's hard to fathom and hard to accept.



Think of it this way, our DNA is like cooking recipe. If we heat for right time, we get delicious food. Or if we overheat more than specified time, we get burnt good-for-nothing food. The same thing applies to humans. Guru guides us how to be the best in ourselves.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh


----------



## Ishna (Jun 15, 2011)

Thank you Kanwaljit for providing that response.

You mention that Guruji (take Guru Arjan Dev Ji as the perfect and timely example) accepted his torture as the Will of God.  Is it true to say that some horrible actions are done by the Will of God and others are done because humans aren't listening to Guruji and succumbing to the vices (lust, greed, etc)?  That I can accept, understand and gain strength to combat with a sense of doing the right thing.  But if all horrible actions are done by the Will of God, then I start getting confused.

I understand on the basic level that the reality is that everything exists because the creative force causes it to exist.  I accept that.  I'm getting stuck on the concept of supposed free-will which allows people to be extra-ordinary A-holes at odds with the concept that everything that happens is per Hukam.  How is it up to me to question Hukam?  I'm pressed for time (late for work) but Guru Arjun Dev Ji's buddy (whose name escapes me just now) who wanted to bring the world down to save him probably felt what I feel (probably moreso - it was GURUJI being put on the hot plate!!) and Guruji said NO, let it happen.  How do we as Sikhs know how to tell the difference - or do we stand against EVERY injustice, every horrible act?  What internal position do we take?  Where do we stand with relation to these crimes and Hukam?

It is so much easier to accept my own suffering that it is for me to see/hear about the suffering of others.  If I suffer, I can accept that.  If I see a child being held in it's mothers arms and she's smoking a cigarette 6 inches away from the child's face, I could smash her for her disregard for her child.  What I imagine doing to those ba$tards in the article is not describable here.  But I don't know what I'm supposed to feel - how I'm supposed to interpret horrible acts in the Sikh belief system.

SPNadmin ji:  Sorry for my ambiguity.  What I mean to ask is not so much to rationalise and "justify" the act which is occuring, but how to process it internally -- ie. how does Sikhi explain what my position should be on these acts with relation to the Sikh concept of Hukam and the omnipresence of God.

God is in the rapist and God is in the victim.  God is in me witnessing these events.  God is in that victim's tears, fear, horror and pain.  I just can't process it.

Sorry for being thick-headed (thick-hearted??).


----------



## Ishna (Jun 15, 2011)

> Here people are doing as they please without listening to God. Can you blame God?



But from my interpretation of Gurbani, and I could be wrong and I hope I'm wrong, there isn't a distinction between God and the self.  It's all God.  It's all hukam. No one is beyond hukam.

I'm stuck in the classic human existential question -- how does "God" allow evil in the world.  Or, for a less Abrahamical interpretation of the question:  how does the observer accept that God is in the rapist and God is in the victim?

I'm either going to pop out as an Atheist or a better Sikh.  hehe...


----------



## Caspian (Jun 15, 2011)

Im vouching for atheist btw . 

But yeah, as far as I know (from asking similar questions in the past on this site). The consensus, at least on this forum, is that "bad" deeds are the will of god just as "good" deeds are the will of god. Everything is the will of god. Your being an atheist or a better sikh from this point on—is the will of God . 

I'm not comfortable with that line of reasoning—but that is essentially the sikh line of reasoning. Sikhism, as I've been lead to believe from this forum, is pretty deterministic—there really is no room for free will in matters of importance or non-importance.

If I was religious I guess I would assure you that although you cant see it, there is god in the villain just as there is god in the victim. And that god shares the combined pain of the villain and victim. Although the victim suffered greatly in a physical sense, would it not be true that the villain is suffering ever more greatly in a spiritual sense? 

If you feel as if the above answer is a bit iffy, i wouldnt blame you. You, like me, might have doubts about the "spiritual" sense, and perhaps you think that a soul in pain cannot amount to the physical pain caused by that soul (I for one wouldn't feel satisfied by my above explanation). But I guess that would be the best religious answer I could come up with


----------



## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

> Is it true to say that some horrible actions are done by the Will of God and others are done because humans aren't listening to Guruji and succumbing to the vices (lust, greed, etc)? That I can accept, understand and gain strength to combat with a sense of doing the right thing. But if all horrible actions are done by the Will of God, then I start getting confused.


 
But we are all given a free will in this world. God probably knows what is going to happen. He knows about so many earthquakes and hurricanes that are going to take many human lives. He doesn't stop them means that it has His Will in some way.



> I'm getting stuck on the concept of supposed free-will which allows people to be extra-ordinary A-holes at odds with the concept that everything that happens is per Hukam.


 
The question that comes on us in this free will world, have we seen the person with highest gursikh quotient? No. Similarly we are not aware of the worst things that go on. But the good thing is that due to Guru Nanak, there are 25 million Sikhs trying to figure out what to do in life, how to meet God etc after so many years. Whereas no one is left to walk on path of Hitler. Though people who devote themselves to destroy humanity keep on coming up with novel ways.



> How is it up to me to question Hukam?


 
The more you question, the more you are made aware of your role in your life and those around you! How even a small action like plucking leaves from a plant impacts you or the plant!



> Guruji said NO, let it happen. How do we as Sikhs know how to tell the difference - or do we stand against EVERY injustice, every horrible act?


 
Guru Sahib wanted to go ahead and sacrifice his life to set new standards when it came to fight for justice. He also wanted to inspire his Sikhs that after that point, we had to learn self-defence and have a political standing wherever we lived! I cannot say for sure, but I think He felt no pain, for he was totally absorbed in Sewa of Akaal Purakh.



> What internal position do we take? Where do we stand with relation to these crimes and Hukam?


 
Your position is decided and nice one to take. You will not allow even an iota of such horrible crime. Question is, what steps will you take to stop that? Teach Gatka to ladies from poor section of society? Gift them arms?



> If I see a child being held in it's mothers arms and she's smoking a cigarette 6 inches away from the child's face, I could smash her for her disregard for her child.


 
Why not something simple like water, best fire extinguisher? There is difference in actions motivated by justice and those motivated by disgust!



> But I don't know what I'm supposed to feel - how I'm supposed to interpret horrible acts in the Sikh belief system.


 
Such people walk amongst us and we don't do much. Every city is full of such cases and nothing happening in court, not even basic support for the victim. I have been to an NGO where they had ladies raped as under-age and some had even lost their mental senses. And I never went there again, though I kept planning so for a year!



> how does Sikhi explain what my position should be on these acts with relation to the Sikh concept of Hukam and the omnipresence of God.


 
Take some action, yes it will be a selfish act to pacify the disturbance caused in your heart by such news. But it will bring good to some lives which live without hope. And slowly it might make your more selfless.



> God is in the rapist and God is in the victim. God is in me witnessing these events. God is in that victim's tears, fear, horror and pain. I just can't process it.


 
Let me correct you a bit here if you don't mind. Such line can be compared to:

ਮਨਸਾ ਪੂਰਨ ਸਰਨਾ ਜੋਗ ॥
He is the Fulfiller of wishes, who can give us Sanctuary;


ਜੋ ਕਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਸੋਈ ਹੋਗੁ ॥
That which He has written, comes to pass.


ਹਰਨ ਭਰਨ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਫੋਰੁ ॥
He destroys and creates in the twinkling of an eye.


ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਹੋਰੁ ॥
No one else knows the mystery of His ways.


ਅਨਦ ਰੂਪ ਮੰਗਲ ਸਦ ਜਾ ਕੈ ॥
He is the embodiment of ecstasy and everlasting joy.


ਸਰਬ ਥੋਕ ਸੁਨੀਅਹਿ ਘਰਿ ਤਾ ਕੈ ॥
I have heard that all things are in His home.


ਰਾਜ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਗੀ ॥
Among kings, He is the King; among yogis, He is the Yogi.


ਤਪ ਮਹਿ ਤਪੀਸਰੁ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਸਤ ਮਹਿ ਭੋਗੀ ॥
Among ascetics, He is the Ascetic; among householders, He is the Enjoyer.


ਧਿਆਇ ਧਿਆਇ ਭਗਤਹ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
By constant meditation, His devotee finds peace.


ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਾ ਕਿਨੈ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥
O Nanak, no one has found the limits of that Supreme Being. ||2||

Thus while Guru Sahib calls God as the essence of Kings, Saints, Ascetics and Householders, he doesn't relate God to gross evil actions you talk about. And I believe there is no where in Guru Granth Sahib where God is compared with actions of crime. See a saint is full of Godly qualities, a rapist is more like empty (void).

God is like an open sea where we are fishes, now there are some bad fishes out there too. Sea doesn't kill those bad fishes or inspire them to be bad. They are bad because other fishes don't do anything. And we just accuse God.

Nice line from Batman Begins:
_Criminals Thrive On The Indulgence Of Society's Understanding_

It points to fact that we become 'understanding' and pardon 'small time' crooks. These people only later become 'big time' crooks or vicious crime lords, spawning more hell minions. So have Faith in God, and Kirpan in your kamar kasa (waistband) to stop evil and defend the helpless.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji ki Fateh


----------



## Caspian (Jun 15, 2011)

*Kanwaljit: *How does sikhism reconcile free will with gods will? Its easier said then done. The two seem inherently contradictory, if he knows what your going to do, before you do it, even if he doesnt stop you from doing it—It would mean you have no free will then. Your just an actor playing a part in his grand play. From previous threads on the topic of sikhism, free will and destiny, most sikhs I talked to resolved the situation by suggesting we have no free will and then quoting the sggs in support of that claim. I'll dig through those threads if you wanna read them (I believe one was called the "Free Will/Destiny Paradox."


----------



## spnadmin (Jun 15, 2011)

Caspian ji

In his book,"Essentials of Sikhism," the scholar, Daljeet Singh, considers many of the questions you have raised in this thread. Take a look at Chapter 13, beginning on page 250, "Freedom and Responsibility in Sikhism." 

My own opinions take us off the purpose of the thread. So I will be quiet on this point.  But I suggest you take a look at this link http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/essentials.pdf


I would not describe the majority view on any forum, including this one or another Sikh forum, as a representative consensus among academics and scholars about something like free will.


----------



## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

> The two seem inherently contradictory, if he knows what your going to do, before you do it, even if he doesnt stop you from doing it—It would mean you have no free will then.



Correct. If God knows all the factors that are going to influence us, then He knows what we will do before even we do. But we are not just actors. We will not sit at home waiting for God to bring food to us and feed us. We have to 'act' ourselves. 'Mind' asks us to go and get food, eat it.

Though the hunger which is induced in us is by His Will. It is not just a pure chemical reaction. Different people feel hungry after different waiting periods. Though science can one day define it purely in a scientific way, there is no scientific explanation for anger, lust, ego, greed etc. It can only be explained using Psychology, the science of mind and behavior. The mind is as non-existing as God.


----------



## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 15, 2011)

@Ishna ji, just read this somewhere which might help:

Faith will not show you fairness but Truth.


----------



## Ishna (Jun 15, 2011)

Thank you all for your input, it is highly valued.

*Kanwaljit ji:*  Somehow it's easier to accept natural disasters than it is to accept cruelty willingly and consciously inflicted upon another individual (man, woman, child, animal).



> Thus while Guru Sahib calls God as the essence of Kings, Saints, Ascetics and Householders, he doesn't relate God to gross evil actions you talk about. And I believe there is no where in Guru Granth Sahib where God is compared with actions of crime. See a saint is full of Godly qualities, a rapist is more like empty (void).


 
You're right, and that is an observation I had missed.  However, God is seen as manifesting all creation and controlling it.  God is the ocean of virtue.  Could we recognise virtue if its opposite didn't exist?  

Also, Gurbani says "by their actions some are drawn closer and some driven further away" (Japji last Saloka), sorry I can't cut/paste just now.  How can there be near and far is God is already in, around and controlling everything?  How can God cause someone to act in a certain way and then judge that person as guilty?  There has to be some level of free will or self-determination in there somewhere!

I think I sort of understand but its so hard to explain.  I can understand that the Naam is the support of all things, creation can't be created without God and the existance of every human is per Gods will and our actions bring us closer or drive us further away.



> So have Faith in God, and Kirpan in your kamar kasa (waistband) to stop evil and defend the helpless.


 
Maybe this is my wakeup call to become Amritdhari.  I didn't remember that Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave the Khalsa their kirpan to defend the helpless.  Interestingly enough there wouldn't be Soldier-Saints if there weren't bad deeds and helpless people.  There would only be Saints and we would all be merging back into the Creator before the Creator can watch the show.  That's bordering on paradox.

*Caspian ji:*  thank you for providing your explanation if you were religious.  I'm interested to hear your explanation as an atheist, if you don't mind sharing.


----------



## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 16, 2011)

> Somehow it's easier to accept natural disasters than it is to accept cruelty willingly and consciously inflicted upon another individual (man, woman, child, animal).



Very True. The worst and most unacceptable thing is when we ourselves face such situation or someone in the family.



> You're right, and that is an observation I had missed. However, God is seen as manifesting all creation and controlling it. God is the ocean of virtue. Could we recognise virtue if its opposite didn't exist?



Probably not, we know its dawn when it marks the end of night? Doesn't it?



> Also, Gurbani says "by their actions some are drawn closer and some driven further away" (Japji last Saloka), sorry I can't cut/paste just now. How can there be near and far is God is already in, around and controlling everything? How can God cause someone to act in a certain way and then judge that person as guilty?



Think of mind of a new born child like 100% golden heart. As he grows older, he learns to lie, make fun of other kids, hurt them. When he is teenager, he steals. Every action is chipping away the gold from the heart. God doesn't judge you guilty. But when the person leaves the body, we see how much gold is left in our heart. How much is the value we have earned. Mind you, for every wrong action we plan, God gives us numerous hints discouraging us, but we don't listen (to our parents, heart, mind etc.)!



> Maybe this is my wakeup call to become Amritdhari. I didn't remember that Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave the Khalsa their kirpan to defend the helpless. Interestingly enough there wouldn't be Soldier-Saints if there weren't bad deeds and helpless people. There would only be Saints and we would all be merging back into the Creator before the Creator can watch the show. That's bordering on paradox.



Yes Guru Gobind Singh acknowledged the need to 'defend against evil'. That evil which corrupts our mind as well as other people. Even Guru Nanak worked on liberating people from their evil ways before they could see the Path of God (bhagti).


----------



## Harry Haller (Jun 16, 2011)

Ishna Bhenji, 

I, although a sikh, am unable to give god a personality, or a human heart. I also do not subscribe to the 'God is watching and unable to do anything' theory, nor the ' God is in the rapist and the victim theory'. To me God is simply the truth. The truth is that today, people will get raped, killed and die all over the world. It is not a case of a higher power sitting by, it is the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts. To me though, better to know the truth than be dazzled by lies. 

It is for the same reason I find it hard to do simran, preferring sewa to show my respect for this great truth. I also avoid praising the truth, as I avoid admonishing it and asking it questions. To me this represents the first steps of sikhi, I do not believe I can move on to the next step which is complete submission to the truth, until I cease questioning the truth, however the truth is easier to accept in terms of the wicked things that happen in this world than a 'force', as this implies power and reasoning. The truth is bad things happen, some people pray for these things not to happen, some people travel to the area and do sewa, for some people these things make others look closer to home, and people take action, they do things, think how many people have felt like you and left homes and families to help. They are not instructed to do so by a white bearded  god, they are sewadars of the truth. 

Anything can happen to anyone of us here. Everyone knows someone that was affected by 1984. You are not a god Ishnaji, nor a guru, so the responsibility for these things happening is not yours. I think in times like this, when the feeling is that one should do something, one should do what one can,. at the end of the day, for these things to stop happening, we need to educate our children, we need to do sewa, comfort that lonely neighbour, be there for a local widow, there is plenty misfortune on our own doorsteps we do not need to travel to war zones, there are no doubt good sewa types already there, look around you Ishnaji, armed with the truth and your faith, I am sure someone like you will make a massive difference to all that know you, your step children and your husband by being determined that what has happened has not happened for any reason other than it was a potential situation that turned complete.


----------



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 17, 2011)

God is IN the THIEF...YES..He is..BUT GOD is NOT in the habit of "thieving"...That is the action of the thief on his own volition....
Same way GOD is IN the MURDERER...RAPIST...and also IN the VICTIMS..BUT HE is NOT in the "murdering business"...He doesnt RAPE...He Doesnt GET RAPED/MURDERED either !!

This is to explain the apparent contradiction some beleive in..How can GOD be in the THIEF as well as his VICTIM...one is a Bad/evil..the other is the good one..????

There are NO Contradictions...only in OUR MINDS...

The SUN shines on the Rubbish heap....and on the MILK...the suns rays do not become soiled by the rubbish..or become purer by shining on milk...its the SAME SUN and the same rays...the Rubbish heap then produces a stink..worms are born..rotten things happen....(due to the sun rays)....while the Milk becomes sterilised..by the same sun rays...

My thoughts...and apparent contradictions if any are MINE..


----------



## Seeker9 (Jun 17, 2011)

Dear  Ishna Ji

 I am coming to this thread a bit late and have just finished  reading the posts

 I too am appalled by what I have read. I guess there really is no  limit to the depths to which one human will sink when inflicting pain  and misery on their fellow human being

 Yes there is great pain and suffering in this world and it is only  natural that the "why does God allow suffering" type questions will  inevitably arise

 For example, where is God when thousands die at once in a natural  disaster? 
 Is that God's will?

 What is this "God's Will" concept anyway?
 Is there a cosmic puppet master? 
Does He pull the strings when  people do bad things? 
Does He pull the strings when people do good  things?
Does He create natural disasters?

 I really don't have a definitive answer and can only share my  thoughts in this regard

 Personally, I don't subscribe to the Karma concept as I don't buy  into the concept of collective Karma and thousands dying at once

 I also don't look for Divine presence in all things good and bad
 I believe we make our own decisions. 

 We can choose to inflict misery on others. 
We can choose to  live a life in accordance with spiritual/religious teachings. 
WE  make the choices because WE have choice

 Is "God" everywhere
 Yes, I think so but depends on how you look at "God"

 Does "God" micro-manage the universe and control the weather and  all our actions?
 I think not. I think we are given the choice. We can either listen  or we can ignore and do our own thing.

 As for natural disasters....having been created the Creation works  to laws of nature. But why do thousands die at once? I'm afraid I cannot  answer that and this question has been a long-standing problem for me

 So interested to hear what others think

 Take care


----------



## findingmyway (Jun 26, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> AND one more rather intriguing fact...
> Guru nanak ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji accords WOMAN the HIGHEST status, respect and Love...YET WOMEN are the BIGGEST REASON for the proliferation of the ANTI_Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, DERAS all over PUNJAB. Women are the vast MAJORITY attendees of these FAKE Babas and their deras..taksaals....
> Woemn seem to be their own "worst enemies"....Its the WOMEN who force other women to MURDER their unborn children..the dadee..granny..mother in law..elder ones..FORCE the daughter in law to ABORT..or torture the new bride..etc..
> IN ISLAM its the WOMEN who are strongest advocates of burqa, veils, obeying their husbands t the extent of being slaves and sex slaves too...they accept everything the man does as Allah Ordained...



You are right, women often are their own worst enemy and I have been trying to figure out why. Yesterday I met a relative who was a follower of a baba after her husband died and she told me the story of why. When all her family had forsaken her, her husbands family had cheated her and left her with nothing to feed her children, she had nowhere else to turn ofr moral support.

In a lot of cultures women are also trained from a young age, they are brainwashed as children to know their role and funtion in life. When the outcome is not achieved that they are taught should be this induces feelings of fear and failure. There is also much social pressure to keep up appearances, avoid beatings or avoid being thrown out on the street for people in societies where the woman cannot live independently. I think there may also be an element of social distress-if a woman has been treated badly at a young age, she will repeat the bad behaviour towards someone younger to herself as an act of revenge and/or power as it is the only time she feels in control. This is the same pronciple that causes the bullied to become bullies.

Then I started thinking about why the difference between East and West. I think this is due to the changes brought about in Europe due to war. The family structures here had fallen apart and many women were left to fend for themselves so society had to change dramatically.

How to deal with it? Educate the men but also educate the women to break the brainwashing. Help women psychologically to cope and stop the same behaviours being propagated through the genetations.


----------



## findingmyway (Jun 26, 2011)

Ishna said:


> Also, Gurbani says "by their actions some are drawn closer and some driven further away" (Japji last Saloka), sorry I can't cut/paste just now.  How can there be near and far is God is already in, around and controlling everything?



This is the basis of the concept of free wil as far as I understand it. 
* God is not a person who is sitting up there pulling the strings of puppets to make is act. God is not a person who knows everything that is going to happen as we know the train is about to pull in to the station. God as per mool mantar is not a figure but more like a force in many respects.
* Hukam for me is more like the laws of nature. Humans will not fly as our bodies are not made that why so that is why is not hukam to fly. Atrocities are still part of hukam as they are part of the natural order of things. However, it is how we deal with it that impacts us as spiritual beings.
* God is everywhere. The moving closer and further is related not to physical distance but to how much of that connection to God we feel. If you let yourself be governed by animal instincts (as the people in the article obviously are) then you are moving further away in that you lose sight of the connection and don't realise the God inside. By using compassion and empathy and doing seva, the connection to God becomes stronger as we have more control over the evils battling for our mind which pull us away. Not sure how well I've explained it.
* The people who commit murder etc have free will and have chosen to give in to greed etc. Most poeple choose to have more control and therefore won't commit these atrocities.
* Therefore we cannot blame God but human weakness is the culprit. Human weakness is part of creation but we can't have free will and a perfect world. We must all individially be responsible and choose the life we will lead.


----------



## Ishna (Jun 28, 2011)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/skh/tsr1/tsr112.htm I think this chapter of Macauliffe's work (about half way through) contains some good food for thought around suffering and cruelty, including some bania. The content is beyond my understanding at this point in time but perhaps it will be useful to others.


----------



## Ishna (Jun 28, 2011)

Better yet, this ang (417) even talks about rape:  http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=417&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0 

I'm going to have to read this a few times because its very difficult for me to de-personalise Waheguru when I read some of the following tuks (*please refer to the ang above to put the tuks into context*):

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਦੂਤਾ  ਨੋ  ਫੁਰਮਾਇਆ  ਲੈ  ਚਲੇ  ਪਤਿ  ਗਵਾਇ  ॥ 
 Ḏūṯā no furmā▫i▫ā lai cẖale paṯ gavā▫e. 
 The order was given to the soldiers, who dishonored them, and carried them away. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਜੇ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਭਾਵੈ  ਦੇ  ਵਡਿਆਈ  ਜੇ  ਭਾਵੈ  ਦੇਇ  ਸਜਾਇ  ॥੪॥ 
 Je ṯis bẖāvai ḏe vadi▫ā▫ī je bẖāvai ḏe▫e sajā▫e. ||4|| 
 If it is pleasing to God's Will, He bestows greatness; if is pleases His Will, He bestows punishment. ||4|| 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਅਗੋ  ਦੇ  ਜੇ  ਚੇਤੀਐ  ਤਾਂ  ਕਾਇਤੁ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਸਜਾਇ  ॥ 
 Ago ḏe je cẖeṯī▫ai ṯāŉ kā▫iṯ milai sajā▫e. 
 If someone focuses on the Lord beforehand, then why should he be punished? </td></tr></tbody></table>
---
<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>
</td></tr> <tr><td> ਇਕਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ  ਏਹੋ  ਲਿਖਿਆ  ਬਹਿ  ਬਹਿ  ਰੋਵਹਿ  ਦੁਖ  ॥ 
 Iknĥā eho likẖi▫ā bahi bahi rovėh ḏukẖ. 
 For some, it is pre-ordained that they shall sit and cry out in pain. 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਜੋ  ਤਿਸੁ  ਭਾਵੈ  ਸੋ  ਥੀਐ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਕਿਆ  ਮਾਨੁਖ  ॥੭॥੧੧॥ 
 Jo ṯis bẖāvai so thī▫ai Nānak ki▫ā mānukẖ. ||7||11|| 
 Whatever pleases Him, comes to pass. O Nanak, what is the fate of mankind? ||7||11|| </td></tr></tbody></table>*
The following is from the next ang (418) found here: http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=418&g=1&h=0&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0 *

<table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਆਪੇ  ਕਰੇ  ਕਰਾਏ  ਕਰਤਾ  ਕਿਸ  ਨੋ  ਆਖਿ  ਸੁਣਾਈਐ  ॥ 
 Āpe kare karā▫e karṯā kis no ākẖ suṇā▫ī▫ai. 
 The Creator Himself acts, and causes others to act. Unto whom should we complain? 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਦੁਖੁ  ਸੁਖੁ  ਤੇਰੈ  ਭਾਣੈ  ਹੋਵੈ  ਕਿਸ  ਥੈ  ਜਾਇ  ਰੂਆਈਐ  ॥ 
 Ḏukẖ sukẖ ṯerai bẖāṇai hovai kis thai jā▫e rū▫ā▫ī▫ai. 
 Pleasure and pain come by Your Will; unto whom should we go and cry? 

 </td></tr> <tr><td> ਹੁਕਮੀ  ਹੁਕਮਿ  ਚਲਾਏ  ਵਿਗਸੈ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਲਿਖਿਆ  ਪਾਈਐ  ॥੭॥੧੨॥ 
 Hukmī hukam cẖalā▫e vigsai Nānak likẖi▫ā pā▫ī▫ai. ||7||12|| 
 The Commander issues His Command, and is pleased. O Nanak, we receive what is written in our destiny. ||7||12|| </td></tr></tbody></table>---

Now according to Macauliffe this whole section of bani is referring to Babar's invasion of Sayidipur.  I get a very different interpretation if I read the angs as just *stand alone Gurbani* with no knowledge of the events (soldiers become the soldiers of Death, it becomes spiritual) but when I read it in the context of the historical events, then they become human soldiers in my mind.  It's hard to explain.  I think it's bad to read stories about how bania were composed because it clouds the true meanings I think.  But I could be way off!

I can understand the rationale for the above tuks in the context of the environment of greed and decadence which Guru Nanak Dev Ji is referring to at Sayidipur.  I can see how when you get too comfortable, any little bad thing is in fact a terrible, terrible thing.  I can see how greed and complacency set you up for spiritual and materialistic failure.

I can fathom a "cause and effect force of hukam" perspective, in that if you are greedy or get too used to your cushy ways then you'll perceive yourself being "punished" by having things taken away from you, when it's just hukam, and that you don't perceive a "punishment" if you aren't greedy or complacent, because you're more accepting of hukam and Naam can't be taken away from you like your comfy bed and money, therefore no punishment can be inflicted.

I'm still trying to fathom the suffering of innocents though, born in terrible places.  They haven't had the exposure to Gurbani to become fortified with Naam to endure torture, abuse and accept it if they can't fight it.  The 5 year old girl in Congo born to a starving mother, who is constantly on the run and suffers abuse until she's killed by her rapist -- the above Gurbani doesn't tackle that particular subject.  I need to keep looking.  Just thinking out loud, don't mind me.  :interestedkudi:


----------



## Ishna (Jun 28, 2011)

How can anyone read Gurbani and not become overwhelmed by it's incredible awesomeness?  *melts*  I don't rationally understand it but I swear my heart does when I read it and it just rings true.  It's a mystery to me.


----------



## spnadmin (Jun 28, 2011)

Ishna ji



> Now according to Macauliffe this whole section of bani is referring to Babar's invasion of Sayidipur. I get a very different interpretation if I read the angs as just stand alone Gurbani with no knowledge of the events (soldiers become the soldiers of Death, it becomes spiritual) but when I read it in the context of the historical events, then they become human soldiers in my mind. It's hard to explain. I think it's bad to read stories about how bania were composed because it clouds the true meanings I think. But I could be way off!



I can think of two reasons why it is important to know the history of events and how the banis were composed.

1. To be prepared, with research, to critique opinions, found on the Internet and in some academic circles, that challenge the authenticity of the banis themselves. Even challenge the authenticity of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, with the plan of putting forward a Hindutva agenda/to destroy the identity of Sikhs. One famed example of that is the contemporary pressure to remove the banee of the Bhats and the Bhagats from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This is not the first time. 

There is a systematic attack as we speak on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji coming from political quarters and it is powered by money and relentless need for control. 

2. To understand that Guru Nanak's true message was moral and ethical as well as spiritual. Some believe that the fruition of Sikhi only came with Guru Gobind's Singh and his "warrior Sikh." This is a *complete myth*, not based on evidence. The myth forgets that sant/sipahi is not a divisible as a concept. From the days of Guru Nanak Sikhs were to be both sant and sipahi or spiritual warriors. Before the martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev their was little to no reason for Sikhs to take to the sword. After his martyrdom political realities required it. And knowing history gets us to the understanding that even when wielding the sword, Gurus from Hargobind to Gobind Singh did so reluctantly, and only with much consideration. 

Guru Nanak Devji, Guru Amardasji the other Gurus were flesh and blood human beings who took an active interest in the world as it was in their times, to include all of the political and cultural outrages committed against humanity. They undertook pilgrimages, including Guru Teg Bahadur (perhaps the most mystical of Gurus) to raise the spiritual consciousness of the people, and to give them a moral and ethical center coming from dharma. They worked with their hands and hearts. Their "mystical organs" were not detached from the real world. Guru Harkrishan ji gave his life serving small pox victims. Guru Amar Das ji organized the Sikhs into geographical areas and appointed ministers, including women, to attend to their social and spiritual needs, Guru Har Rai is remembered as the "green" Guru. I could go on. Too many believe we wash our bad karma with seva, forgetting that "seva" for sikhs from the times of the Gurus was spirituality in action. Washing our karma with seva is selfishness. Living out the history of Sikhi through seva is the message of Gurbani in action. 

Knowing the history Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji *out of the ether* of Brahminical "other worldliness." How could history take away the spirituality of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? The bani for me mean so much more when I realize that Guru Nanak was not staring at his navel but was actually imprisoned with the captives of Babar, and suffered with them, when he could have taken his leave as a holy man. He did not do that and expressed righteous anger and deep compassion for the victims, which came from a place in dharma. Taken before Babar his spiritual message freed prisoners, corrected injustice.

Knowing how the shabads fit into a story of Guru Nanak's travels does change how we read them.... a real person is speaking from real experience. imho History makes the banis more spiritual not less given that the Gurus were faced with remarkable challenges in the face of great odds.


----------



## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jun 28, 2011)

> Better yet, this ang (417) even talks about rape


 
I don't know it kind of hints at rape, but overall Guru Sahib is talking about what people do in their lives (run after worldly things) and in the end they suffer.

Doota No Furmaya, Lae Chale Pat Gawaye


This can also talk about messenger, which is the real meaning of Doota. I guess it talks about Messenger of Death. When you die, all you have earned is left here, true respect to earn is for those who are accepted by Guru. Those who have not done Simran of Waheguru or wished for His Darshan, don't get to meet Waheguru once the life is done. They are taken for their next birth of the cycle.

The point of Sindoor in the full Shabad (http://waheguru.com/sgg.php?page=417) is to point to those who live like someone's bride, but are badly attached to wealth and beauty. If we don't have real devotion for Waheguru, we are going to suffer our fate.

For some, it is pre-ordained that they shall sit and cry out in pain.


This pre-ordained is not something written by God, it is probably written as our past actions in previous lives. It could be that even in last 10 lives I was a big liar, and even in this life I don't value Truth. So I continue to suffer. Lying and suffering is not something written by God, but due to rules of Universe, it has become my behavorial tendency.

It has become men's tendency to show down women. Similarly women also give in to suffering. Worse they keep quiet when their own daughters are not treated well, for they have come to love their sons more. Being done over generations, I am afraid it is almost as if being written to our DNA. Only Gurbani can purify us.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji ki Fateh


----------



## spnadmin (Jun 28, 2011)

ishna ji

Would you please say a little more about this 





> I'm going to have to read this a few times because its very difficult for me to de-personalise Waheguru when I read some of the following tuks (please refer to the ang above to put the tuks into context):



I have read Ang 417 over two or three times and am having trouble understanding the connection between the shabad and your saying "its very difficult for me to de-personalise Waheguru when I read some of the following tuks." The passages you cite are depictions of the fate of women in Lahore (but also describe the fate of widows in general in Brhaminical India then and even now. *Guru Nanak is giving an eye-witness account,* as well as pondering the material fate and spiritual condition of those who cling to material position and wealth. In these passages, Guru Nanak is also  setting the stage for later passages in the raag where he puts serious moral questions forward to those who wield power and abuse wealth.) 

Guru Nanak actually asks the moral question for you, for us: 

ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਦੇ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਜੇ ਭਾਵੈ ਦੇਇ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੪॥ 
Je ṯis bẖāvai ḏe vadi▫ā▫ī je bẖāvai ḏe▫e sajā▫e. ||4|| 
If it please Him, He grants greatness, If it please Him He awards punishment. 

ਅਗੋ ਦੇ ਜੇ ਚੇਤੀਐ ਤਾਂ ਕਾਇਤੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥ 
Ago ḏe je cẖeṯī▫ai ṯāŉ kā▫iṯ milai sajā▫e. 
If the mortal meditates, on the Lord before hand, then why should he receive punishment. 

Then later Guru Nanak answers the question
ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਥੀਐ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਨੁਖ ॥੭॥੧੧॥ जो तिसु भावै सो थीऐ नानक किआ मानुख ॥७॥११॥ 
Jo ṯis bẖāvai so thī▫ai Nānak ki▫ā mānukẖ. ||7||11|| 
Whatever pleases Him, that alone does happen, O Nanak! What is man? 

Farther on Ang 417 he repeats this idea:
ਇਹੁ ਜਗੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂ ਗੋਸਾਈ ॥ 
Ih jag ṯerā ṯū gosā▫ī. 
This world is Thine and Thou art the Lord of Universe. 

ਏਕ ਘੜੀ ਮਹਿ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪੇ ਜਰੁ ਵੰਡਿ ਦੇਵੈ ਭਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
Ėk gẖaṛī mėh thāp uthāpe jar vand ḏevai bẖāŉ▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
In a moment Thou establishest and disestablishest. Thou distributest wealth as Thou pleasest. Pause. 

Are you asking why Waheguru would visit suffering on the women of Lahore, permitting  them to be dishonored by soldiers and carried away? (The shabad is part of Guru Nanak's longer hymn about the destruction of Lahore by Babar) If you are, then your question is very like the classic question: 

Why does God (in any vision of god) will catastrophes and tragedies to occur and devastate creation, which he created? Why would he allow rape to occur? Why would he allow all the atrocities visited upon women to occur?

The follow-up is usually: What kind of God is that who would permit harm to otherwise harmless beings? 

Another: Why does the hukam of Waheguru permit powerful or evil people prey on the powerless?

Or: When the harmless and innocent suffer, does that happen because of past karmas in past lives?



I am not sure if you are asking one of these questions, or asking about something and I just have not understood. Or perhaps my misunderstanding comes from a different sense of "personal" god.


----------



## spnadmin (Jun 28, 2011)

*Admin note: For more about what are terms the Babarvani hymns see this link *http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/historical-events/27582-the-invasion-of-babar-1525-ad.html
_
In his first invasion, Babar came as far as Peshawar. The following year he crossed the Indus and, conquering Sialkot without resistance, marched on Saidpur (now Eminabad, 15 km southeast of Gujranwala in Pakistan) which suffered the worst fury of the invading host. The town was taken by assault, the garrison put to the sword and the inhabitants carried into captivity. During his next invasion in 1524, Babar ransacked Lahore. His final invasion was launched during the winter of 1525-26 and he became master of Delhi after his Victory at Panipat on 21 April 1526. 

Guru Nanak was an eye-witness to the havoc created during these invasions. Janam Sakhis mention that he himself was taken captive at Saidpur. A little of his, outside of Babarwani hymns, indicates that he may have been present in Lahore when the city was given up to plunder. In six pithy words this line conveys, "For a pahar and a quarter, i.e. for nearly four hours, the city of Lahore remained subject to death and fury" (GG,1412)._

*Also this link Adi Granth as a Source of Sikh History http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-gurus/29190-adi-guru-granth-source-history-sikh.html*


----------



## Ishna (Jun 28, 2011)

SPNadmin ji,

Thank you for your input.  I've been brazen and in fact asked questions like those you've cited (and ones being asked in the parallel thread occuring at the moment about the terrible state of the world in general).



> I'm going to have to read this a few times because its very difficult for me to de-personalise Waheguru when I read some of the following tuks (please refer to the ang above to put the tuks into context):



I was making reference to Findingmyway's post #24.  In her post she explains how "God is not a person who is sitting up there pulling the strings of puppets to make is act."  The two of us are in agreement that Waheguru is better understood as a "force" rather than a "personality" but I slip sometimes.  Also Gyani ji's post #21 is relevant.

It may just be the translation and my deficit in understanding Gurbani at this stage, but when my beginner's brain reads tuks such as the ones I quoted, I struggle to maintain the idea that God is a force and not a puppet-master.

As I said before, I'm pretty sure I've got the right kind of understanding on the inside, but it's difficult for me express my understanding and see how my understanding fits with real-world examples.  Like, testing a hypothesis you're sure is correct but not knowing much about real science!

On the flip side it's easy to fall back into a mindset of "well it's it's all God's will and he's pleased with it then why the heck should I try to connect with It whose happy for crap to occur?".  Obviously that's not the right understanding and I'm trying to educate myself using the forum as a sounding-board.

Ish


----------



## spnadmin (Jun 28, 2011)

ishna ji

Good point! 





> On the flip side it's easy to fall back into a mindset of "well it's it's all God's will and he's pleased with it then why the heck should I try to connect with It whose happy for crap to occur?". Obviously that's not the right understanding and I'm trying to educate myself using the forum as a sounding-board.


  Thank you for responding and explaining in more detail.


----------



## Kanwaljit.Singh (Jul 7, 2011)

I wonder how they missed South Africa in their survey:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/12/eudy-simelane-corrective-rape-south-africa


----------



## kds1980 (Jul 7, 2011)

Most of these kind of surveys  are not for countries like India.India is more like Europe than a country ,here culture ,status of women etc changes from one state to another .Ask a model who is working in Mumbai and travels late at night and have live in relationship whether India is such a bad her answer will be no.Ask a poor woman of UP or Bihar  her answer may be India is worst for women


----------



## Harry Haller (Jul 8, 2011)

Ishna said:


> SPNadmin ji,
> 
> Thank you for your input.  I've been brazen and in fact asked questions like those you've cited (and ones being asked in the parallel thread occuring at the moment about the terrible state of the world in general).
> 
> ...



 I may be wrong, but I have come to terms with this by accepting these things not as gods will, but gods truth. If there is no air in my tyres, and that causes an accident, that is not gods will, that is not anyone's will, the sad fact is that the truth is, there was no air in the tyre, and I ignored it. 

If a young child gets raped in the congo, God is not sitting up there watching, powerless, its just the truth, and the consequences of the truth, you could maybe trace this rape back to an event that could have been avoided, but once the air starts to escape from the tyre, and without any vigilance, then an accident is merely a consequence of events left unheeded. 

Apologies for the car references today 

there is just the truth, with all the power the truth has, not sure if I am right,  but that's how I deal with it


----------

