# What Is Jhatka? Tricky Reality



## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 4, 2011)

Dear All,

A dear friend in a recent mail mused about "academics and scholars and vidwaans..etc " arguing endlessly about this "meat-jhatka-hallal" subject when Guru Nanak ji Sahib only mentioned "moorakhs". as in "Maas maas kar moorakh jhaggrrey..." Are we i ndeed beating about the bush on a NON-ISSUE ?  I beleive so.  Diet in Gurmatt is  a non-issue. All those rules and regulations ( and there are indeed many many detailed rules about Kosher/Hallal - Both derived from the same source). The Hows the Whys the Whens are all side forays into the bushes. Nearly ALL who kill/slaughter - inlcuding the Chinese, Christians, and other communities even as diverse as the aborginals of Australia, tribes of the Sub-Sahara who are not muslims or christians etc etc cut the throat and drain off all the blood. The head is left intact joined to the dead animal.

The ONLY way one can see an animal indeed being killed by breaking its spinal chord/neck etc is by the hunting animals like lions, cheetahs etc.Those wild hunters in nature do not just take a bite to the throat and walk away in order for the victim to bleed to death before they eat it. Otherwise in 100% of cases of slaughter in abattoirs the blood is indeed drained off completely and the head is intact on the carcass.

Our Gurus hunted and the preferred methods were either a rifle shot or an arrow. In that case the animal bleeds to death as the head is not severed..or until such a time when the hunter arrives on the spot and completes the job with his sword...or not as ?   This is also the same method applied by modern hunters.

Only certain times in India at Kali Mata mandirs and Nihung ceremonies is the Goat slaughtered by a single stroke to the neck severing it at once. A TINY minority of slaughtered animals die this way. This is supposed to be JHATKA - the "permitted" method of slaughter to a Sikh.In numerous Punjab villages and roadside dhabbas the preferred method is a TWIST to the neck. That would also qualify as Jhatka as the neck is broken - but this is applied only to birds/chickens and not to larger animals such as goats.

Numerous u-tube videos on the internet and Animal Rights Activist Groups propoganda materials show the undescribable horrors that take place on supposedly modern farms and animal breeding stations and the undescribable horrors that take place in abbatoirs- a testimony to Man's immense cruelty and GREED. Indeed Man is the only "animal" on Earth that actively practises and enjoys giving pain knowingly and for fun. Watch the Documentary Earthlings. Documnentaries on widespread  cases of fur collectors,, whale hunters, seal hunters etc will make you throw up on seeing what man does to his fellow creatures, his pets, his "food", Indeed GOD is missing IF we fail to see HIM in all His Creatures. A "Stone hearted" man is all that is left. THAT is the stark reality of the modern cultivated FOOD CHAIN connected tot he nicely packaged meat products we see in store shelves. Gurmatt/Sikhism cannot have anything to do with THAT. A  "lazy" Sikh is not a Sikh....just cannot be. Uddam, Dya Dharam are all hallmarks of  a Good practsing Sikh. ALL these three are MISSING from the modern meat products. THere is instead a whole lot of religious dishonesty - exactly what Guru nanak ji Sahib saw almost 540 years ago in the society around Him and why He tackled this tricky reality via the Maas maas kar moorakh jhaggrrey shabad to guide us. Gurbani is timeless and Universal - applicable at all times regions and in all situations. Deep down we all know or we dont want to know. Beyond that it becomes individual choice and no amount of Gurbani quoting/hand wringing/ etc will chnage the reality of the situation. Each of us must settle this dilemma with himself.

Regards to all

Jarnail Singh Malaysia.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 4, 2011)

I think Gyani ji,

The rational for Jatkha comes from a Martial heritage, and one blow could be with a gun too.

Infact, after Jhatka the blood is drained off. All methods of killing are cruel in some way or another, therefore humane killing is an oxy{censored}.

The point for Sikhs is when we do something we do it because we think it is Ok. We don't ask for a special purification from God or some form of guilt.:angryadminsingh:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 4, 2011)

Randip Singh said:


> I think Gyani ji,
> 
> The rational for Jatkha comes from a Martial heritage, and one blow could be with a gun too.
> 
> ...



And randip ji..the most astonishing thing is that after going thru all that rigmarole of asking "permisiion" or on the orders  from his god and tying up his son for the "sacrifice" the god changed his mind and decided to accept the SHEEP  ( which had been brought along as insurance !! anyway ?? or it was all a charade ??) All laong this god wanted bloody sacriifce..that was the cause of the fight betwene the two brothers Cain  and Abel leading to the jelaously and eventual MURDER of one of them by the hand of the other....what a bloody beginning to this tradition..

On the other hand look at Guur Gobind Singh ji sending forth his two eldest beloved sons Ajit and Jhujaar to certain death on the battlefield with no false hopes of any "god" changing his mind and sending them back alive or accepting a sheep in their place.

True sacrifice is ONES OWN and most precious..Ones LIFE !! not a lowly goat one can buy from the market...and killed without its permission and eaten by the killer himslef...Sikhism and Gurmatt cannot condone such a practice..Hundreds of thousands of sikhs offered their own lives readily and voluntarily and happily as true sacriifces. This is one reason why such sacrificial meat is anthema to gurmatt.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 4, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail SIngh ji thanks for starting this topic.

I was not aware that Sikhs eat so called sacrificial meet!  When you go to buy meat in Punjab or elsewhere I don't think people have illusion that it is just meat and nothing sacred about it.  Perhaps there are pockets of people who do some muslim like sacrificial thingy.

Halal meat is a fad in the West to appease the Muslims who are big meat eater constituency.

We heard around here  of a meat processor that advertises Halal Chicken.  Their method is the following to make it Halal,They have a tape playing some muslim hymns/stanzas, etc., in the slaughter house where the chickens are slaughtered.  Everything else is whatever Western meat slaughtering entails.  

So I assume the Chickens get blessed listening to the music as I assume the chickens understand Arabic lol​Sat Sri Akal.


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## Randip Singh (Feb 4, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> And randip ji..the most astonishing thing is that after going thru all that rigmarole of asking "permisiion" or on the orders  from his god and tying up his son for the "sacrifice" the god changed his mind and decided to accept the SHEEP  ( which had been brought along as insurance !! anyway ?? or it was all a charade ??) All laong this god wanted bloody sacriifce..that was the cause of the fight betwene the two brothers Cain  and Abel leading to the jelaously and eventual MURDER of one of them by the hand of the other....what a bloody beginning to this tradition..
> 
> On the other hand look at Guru Gobind Singh ji sending forth his two eldest beloved sons Ajit and Jhujaar to certain death on the battlefield with no false hopes of any "god" changing his mind and sending them back alive or accepting a sheep in their place.
> 
> True sacrifice is ONES OWN and most precious..Ones LIFE !! not a lowly goat one can buy from the market...and killed without its permission and eaten by the killer himslef...Sikhism and Gurmatt cannot condone such a practice..Hundreds of thousands of sikhs offered their own lives readily and voluntarily and happily as true sacriifces. This is one reason why such sacrificial meat is anthema to gurmatt.



Indeed Gyani ji, and it is on this and other points our Sikhs get confused. They should not be arguing over whether it is Ok to eat meat or not,or argue about the merits of dispatching life.

This is why I find this whole thing about purity and purification odd. The Vaishnavs crow about purity through being vegetarian, the Muslims and Jews about purity through ritual sacrifice.......but what is pure and what is truly unpure?


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## hpannu (Feb 4, 2011)

Gyani Ji - do you eat meat ? just one word answer YES or NO.  

Everybody else - if you eat meat is it HALAL or JHATKA ?

I can say for myself when i used to eat meat - i used to kill my own bird or atleast watch it being killed(chicken or hen). And i still remember when i was 16 or 17 and saw life going out just like that I stopped killing and eating meat.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 4, 2011)

hpannu said:


> Gyani Ji - do you eat meat ? just one word answer YES or NO.
> 
> Everybody else - if you eat meat is it HALAL or JHATKA ?
> 
> I can say for myself when i used to eat meat - i used to kill my own bird or atleast watch it being killed(chicken or hen). And i still remember when i was 16 or 17 and saw life going out just like that I stopped killing and eating meat.


 
Long long ago..in the 1980s when I was younger I used to rear chickens on the huge piece of land behind my house..and i used to slaughter my own. In those days even at akhand paaths held in the house some sikhs would slaughter a goat. I witnessed this myself as i used to accompany my dad on raols.
Not any more - with DAALS of every variety so readily available in the hyper markets clean and ready to cook, butter and desi ghee saag and various super fresh vegetables form all over the world...i dont have time for anything else as its my habit to enjoy just one or two dishes at the most and since daal and sabzee already complete the menu...meat is out.
Thats strictly personal.
On the Public Level I am a STAUNCH supporter of the SRM of Akal Takhat 1935...until and unless its changed I will continue to support it Hook line and sinker - meaning 100%. No Ifs and No Buts.
japposatnamwaheguru:


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 4, 2011)

Ambarsariah Ji,
Its EXACTLY the way you described.
Anyway the BOTTOM LINE as I see it is..CONTROL.
The Halllal meat was used as a means of CONTROL in Guru Jis times - ONLY a Muslim Kazi etc could "hallal" meat..so non-muslims were forced to submit. During that time to make this control factor even stronger even keeping a KNIFE by the Non Muslim was Banned.
Imho Guru Ji had to break this stranglehold and Guru Ji did it via making it compulsory to Carry a WEAPON (kirpan) at all times and also to JHATKA ones meat. Kill two birds with one stone !! I understand this same "control" factor is behind this hallal meat pushing in the WEST - either way - Muslims want to stress and flex their muscles, and the western food corporations want to sell their meat....BOTH sides are exerting "control" of sorts.
The REAL "religious" part is LOST becasue its humanly impossible to do the real ritualised reading of kalmas on a speeding production line where live chickens and cows hanging from hooks swish past as if on a highway..its all a huge CHARADE and everyone knows about it..but how to bell the cat ?? In my country this hallal thingy creates "closed" occupation category for lots of bangladeshis who work in the wet markets slaughtering chickens as ONLY MUSLIMS are allowed to do that except in the PORK Abbatoirs.Its all in a days work as the workload is so heavy that the "bangla" has no time to even look at the bird as  he slashes its throat with one quick slash and throws it into the revolving drum to remove the feathers etc....Maas Maas kar MOORAKH jhaggrrey ?? isnt Guru nanak ji absolutlely CORRECT ?? as ALWAYS.japposatnamwaheguru:japposatnamwaheguru:


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## hpannu (Feb 5, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> On the Public Level I am a STAUNCH supporter of the SRM of Akal Takhat 1935...until and unless its changed I will continue to support it Hook line and sinker - meaning 100%. No Ifs and No Buts.
> japposatnamwaheguru:



Gyani Ji - I always look forward to your comments. Thanks for the reply. I myself just like you said - lived in a house with a poultry farm. I was barely 8 or 9 years old when i was trained how to kill and clean the chicken, fish and used to go to market to get Jhatka meat (goat). Like you said there are so many things to enjoy i stopped killing and eating meat around 1986 ਅਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਛਕਣ ਤੋਂ ਬਾਅਦ ।

One of the reason I asked these blunt questions was - In our town there is a Sikh owned business - ASIAN HALAL MEAT AND KABAB HOUSE. Now the family comes to our Gurduara Sahib and gives donation under the business name above. When i saw it i objected to this practise. But nothing changed. This family says to Sangat members - it's not HALAL it's regular meat, we just named it like that to attract HALAL eaters. Because of this there customers - both SIKHS and non SIKHS purchase and serve it without any guilt. It bothers me. First I stand by the SRM like you. SRM maryada says Kutha / HALAL is not acceptable.

Because i live in this society and has seen first hand persons who call themselves SIKHS but engage in anti SIKH practices(business owner is clean shaven - and we liberally call clean shaven as SIKHS too). I know this is a another topic and majority of us will agree and disagree on that label too.  All of this bothers me - how far we will go ? our hunger for money is taking us to unchartered grounds- SIKH business owners are selling Cigarattes and other tobbacco products at their gas stations / stores. We convince ourselves that's the nature of business. We don't consume tobbacco products. I have seen the younger generation - smoke it. 

Again i am a minority and most of us don't see wrong in above scenarios. Sometimes i question myself who is a SIKH ? just because we are born in Punjab or were born to SIKH family - does that make us a SIKH. Gurduara Sahib ਜਾ ਕੇ ਮੱਥਾ ਟੇਕਣ ਨਾਲ ਸਿੱਖ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ? 
One last thing to say before i stop beating the bush. I went to pick up a guest from Airport and was supposed to drop him at Gurduara Sahib for a bhog ceremony. I didn't know this person. I got a call from my Brother to pick him and drop him off. He mentioned something about my brother. This guest said - Dr. Sahib (my brother) says ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰਾ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜਾਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਝੂਠ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਹਣ -ALL WHO LIE GO TO GURDUARA SAHIB and he laughed about this statement. Mind you at one time my brother was a Hard core SIKH. Anyways his thinking still is the same. This simple statement is extreme and i was hit with it. i was like not all of us but majority of us fall in that category.

After the above incident I was more blunt at Gurduara Sahib and now I am labelled - ਕੱਟੜ Hard Core.

When will we learn from our past ? When will we start practicing teachings of our GURUS ?

Gurduara Sahibs are not Social Clubs..............when will be realize this ?

ਸੰਗਤ ਤੋ ਦਾਸ ਭੁਲਾਂ ਦੀ ਮਾਫੀ ਮੰਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਜੀ ।


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## jasi (Feb 6, 2011)

SS AKAL JI.

*Subject: Roots of these rituals for killing animals by Jhatka or Halal or eating the meet is a sin.
* 
 When any Guru or Prophets's  teaching are formed into a organized religion  it gives birth to a different attitude of superiority to differentiate  themselves against other organized religions.This has been resulted into  mas killing in the past and going on to this day some time in the same  religions which is further splitted and organized under different Babas or leaders.

 Then comes the role of Brahmans ,Kazies  or other priest who became a custodians of their organized religions  ,created self made rituals which were never mentioned by any prophets to  follow.

Simply created self superiority as a religious advisers for ruling Kings  and public at large by placing themselves as a pure human being  ,sometime being worshiped as a gods caused  massive damages to the lives  of millions by generations to generations.

Many gods were kings with heavy armed forces  and fought to dominate  each others for centuries leaving entire regions under on going rituals  still being in practices.Millions of people got killed to fight to teach  Dharama  and principals of Morals by way of violence where Brahmans priest   played a great role to distort the matters to resolve issues by violence  and war to gain others regions.

The old system was each year kings(gods) has to release the ROYAL HORSE  IN HIS TERRITORIES TO MAKE SURE THERE IS NO ONE TO OPPOSE HIS KINGDOM  AND IF SOME ONE CATCH THAT HORSE  THEN THE ONLY WAYS TO RESOLVE THE  ISSUE WAS TO GO FOR WAR BY THESE  KING gods.

Humbleness appeared and enlighten the universe by simple life styles by following 
Prophets and Gurus.

Guru Nanak Dev ji
Prophet Muhammad 
Buddha who left His royalty to become a ordinary human being to receive the LIGHT
and *thousands* more who lived their simple and humble lives but left message of that we all come from one light and there is one GOD .

Guru Nanak Dev Ji made it very clear that there is no Prophets of Vedas has left any references about origin of Creators 

Guru Nanak Dev ji blessed us with universal teachings not limited to only Punjab or Sikhs but all the humanity.

 Most of people are living today in free and democratic society and has  right to elect their leaders to their choices than later submitting them  selves to human sacrifice to get rid of the same leader who we voted with our own choices..

 Guru Nanak Dev Ji as far I understand has clearly mentioned in Jap Ji Sahib
* 

                                          " karmi Apo Apni Ke Nere kia Door" *Jap Ji Sahib ji.

 Similarly  Moses quoted.       *"What you so you shall you reap"*

 Paul Newman a Physicist  .    *"Actions and reactions are equal
                                            and opposite"*

*Reference to meet eating or killing the animals,how one kills is still  matter of human needs to feed them selves by eating billions of ocean  species and existing on land.It seems  nothing to do with any organized  religions.*

 Here our society is professing by using different methods to kill the  animal by praying or Jhatka  or other ways by aboriginal people is just  mere hypocritical gesture to reduce any pain in killing the animals.We  are still killing and one can only feel pains if one goes through the  same experiences.

 Yet quote from Ten Commandments says:

 "Thy shall not kill their own" 

Still options are left it is OK to kill any thing to survive but leave  your own kinds otherwise you are also animals.But there are thousands of  cannibals existing in the jungles who eat human flesh all the time . 

Yes we can call them animals and we can call our selves civilized  animals not to kill our one kinds.How well these organized religion  justify themselves against other religions ?

 Organized religion had been crusading other nations with not to  mentioned the heights of killings others by force to convert others to  their religions and then  bribed them by force of with money to  underprivileged masses to make the bigger majority of their religions.
*
 As per my back ground from India where we are taught meet eating is some kinds of sin or 
no good.

I lived for more than 3 years close to North pole among Eskimos who  lived more than 3000 years solely on animal meat and seals,fish and  other sea and ground species by killing to survive in hard hit climate.   Their is no  vegetation's is grown and there is no tree visible in entire region  except full of ice with summer usually -1 to -10 each year from July to  maximum August each year.
* 
 This all wonder me that if there is anything exist one should not eat meat  or be a vegetarian  because meat eaters are sowing sins for themselves to be o punished according to their KARMAS .

What will happens to millions of populations living in related area up  in the northern region of Canada,Russia,USA or else where where there is  no choice except eating meet for survival?

*Many such prohibitions are some time made like FROG who think his small well is the biggest ocean he lives in. 

MOORKH AGIANI. 

WORLD HAS BECOME SMALLER TO INTERACT WITH EACH OTHERS AND TRUTH IS OUT TO REJECT ANY KINDS OF DOGMA OF  FALSE  BELIEFS . 

GURU NANAK DEV JI  BLESSED US WITH THREE PRINCIPAL OF HAVING TRUTHFUL LIFE STYELS IN TODAY'S WORLD.*

*1.Kirat karni
  2.Wand ke shakana
  3.Nam Japna*


Like Shakespeare wrote.

"Nothing is good or bad ,only thinking make it so"

 I apologizes with folded hands if any word or words I wrote offend anyone's thoughts..

Jaspi


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## Randip Singh (Feb 6, 2011)

The responses have been interesting hear, and it is good to see vegetarian Sikhs who stand behind the SRM.

I myself have been vegetarian (Ovo and Lactone), Vegan etc, but purely to try it out for training.

The argument for me about dispatching life or not, or not eating flesh falls on eggs. To put frankly, unless fertilised and egg can never become a life. It is more dead than a plant yet some people I see won't even eat eggs.

Milk on the other hand is biologically cows blood. Far more alive than an egg, yet people have no difficulty in that.

As a power lifter I could probably do it without meat, but eggs would be difficult.

Even Whey Protein users should be aware they contain animal products.


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## Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth (Feb 6, 2011)

Wahe guru ji ka  khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh,


 Thanks for the interseting article about this tricky question of Jhatka and Halal

I  wish to inform my readers that great German reformer Otto Von Bismark  created a law in 19th Century called "Animal Protection Law"  (Tier geschutz gezetz) for the Abatoir. In this every animal from  chicken to cow or pig has to be given anesthesia by a vet doctor before  slaughtering the animal. This was just to eliminate pain to the animal.  The animals were then slaughterd by a guillotine , a large mechanical  knife which just falls over the neck of the animal.  No citizen  is  allowed to kill an animal for food in his house and he has to take the  same to slaughter house.

 Guru Fateh,
 Dr. Harbhajan Singh Seth


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## spnadmin (Feb 7, 2011)

In reference to the deletion above. If TOS are not observed on this point, posts will be deleted. A link to a gurbani search engine will not suffice either, because the forum needs to see the words of our Gurus in context. There have been numerous and friendly attempts to remind all of the rule. When posting a shabad one must post English with Gurmukhi, and the Ang number. When posting a Punjabi article or interpretation of a shabad, an English summary is required. Sorry to have to delete your post. spnadmin


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## Rupinder.Singh (Feb 7, 2011)

I base my opinion on the following definitions

Halal: 
Halal actually means lawful. In islamic terms Halal means anything that is lawful in Islam religion. 

Haq-Halal:
We usually see people using this term in Punjabi language too. It means anyting  that is earned rightously and lawfully.

Haraam:
Haraam is opposite of Halal, it means anything that is unlawful.

Mashbooh:
Mashbooh is the term used to refer to anything that is questionable, that is their are doubts of it being halal or haraam.


However, in the wider society, Term Halal these days is more commonly known as related to food especially meat products and how they are prepared. Whereas it can apply to anything that is not lawfull in one particular regime be it islam or some other. So anything that is not halal is either Haraam or Mashbooh.

In my opinion, I believe there are two more terms that we should be clear before discussing such things and those are:

1: Concept ( Theme or Base)
2: Practice (ie. Actual way of acting on certain concept)


Halal is a CONCEPT, to distinguish a lawful act from an unlawful act in certain Laws. 

Slaughtering the animal in Muslim way (killing animal slowly) is a PRACTICE, which they believe makes it lawful in Islamic laws ie. Halal.

Gurbani never objected to the concept but objected to the practices that don’t hold grounds based on the concept itself.

Because practices are manmade, so they are always topic of controversies.

Same is true for Jhatka. Jhatka is a practice. It is based on the concept of killing animal instantly in one clean shot to reduce the suffering and pain. The intention behind killing animal in this way is solely to cook its meat and eat it. 

Now the concept behind Halal meat is killing animal as an offering to GOD and cook the meat. Which Gurmat says is false practice as GOD never ate that meat or any part of it.

It is similar to the situation where Guru Nanak opposed the practice of offering water to Sun by Hindu priests, as Guru ji said water never reached SUN in practice.

It is all about underlying intention behind any practice or action. Action may be justified as right but if the hidden underlying intention is different, then any act based on that intention can’t be right. 

We people knowingly or unknowingly fail to identify our true underlying intentions behind any act or practice, which is the dilemma of human nature. We can only identify it right by understanding our own "ManN" first, which gurbani guides us towards.

Having said that there are lots of wrong practices that we follow even in Sikhism these days which have entered into Sikh practices from the influences of surrounding society we live in, hidden under the shield of deep faith and offering More respect to our GURU. 


Rest on your thoughts..
:interestedsingh:


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## mukul singh (Feb 8, 2011)

Sat shri akal ji,

I have gone through this conversation many time with other people but after watching earthlings i couldn't sleep for days, the chicken and goat i eat with so much joy has so much of pain behind.I know this this might sound insane but i wished to kill them all who are killing animals with so much pain.
I  realize that they are killing because people like me buy meat,i will not eat it and will try to avoid it even with friends in any party.

Thanks to that guy who mailed me the link of earthlings.Pray waheguruji to forgive my sins.

mukul singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 8, 2011)

This topc has been put to debates several times earliar and many views are given against this.Some even give scientific reasons.

I have tried to know from Gurbaani the status of this issue.I find that there is no specific injection of Gurbaani  regarding this issue.Jaspi Ji has already presented a lot as direction from Gurbaani.
We can also give a thought to the following quote from JAP Ji sahib as
ASANKH GAL WAD HATYA KAMAAHi PAURI 18 but at the ent the message is 
JO TUDHu BHAVE SAAI BHALI KAAR TOO SADAA SALAAMATi NIRANKAAR

However Gurbaani categorically injects so far as intoxication is concerned where we close our eyes totally.

This is what I have observered from Gurbaani.I may inform you I am TEETOTALLAR.My whole family is like that only.My Son lived in ILLINIOS and remained TEETOTALLAR.

With thanks

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 8, 2011)

Asankh....a very huge number for just animal slaughter 500 years ago when it was written...
and Hattiah..is "murder/killing"..and this can be of many many kinds...murder of "innocents" when one terrorises them, tyranny on hapless without killing them, murder of peoples confidence, love, emotions...chetaing, terrifying people into talismans, black magic potions, protection form evil spirits...etc etc...hattiah of girls by foricng them to accpet whatever choices the parents, society  orders, hattiah of the poor man's emotions when he is hungry and forced to see his hungry children sleep hungry...all this is HATTIAH..and LOTS of Capitalists, banniahs, rich landlords, lords, jamindars, jagirdars, kings, kazis, brahmins, priests etc etc ..Hattiah of the hapless women' s real feelings who sell their bodies to crazed men even thogh they dont want to..Hattiah of the self esteem/self confidence of the Beggar, the Slave, the Naukar...the low caste choorrah, the nai, the chimba etc etc..ALL THIS IS HATTIAH and its Blood.y!!! evne of no red blood flows...and its performed in ASANKH even 500 years ago...Guur nanak ji Came to SERVE HUMANITY...as  awhole..He saw the suffering sof ALL downtrodden, the Lalos, the Inhumanity fo the Malik bhagos...to limit "asankh gal waddh: to a LITERAL slitting of thorat of a cow/goat/chicken is SEVERLY LIMITING Gurbani and pushing it into a extremly Narrow BANWIDTH of KBs when its TETRABYTES wide !!
Similar narrowminded ness is dispalyed when Gurbani tuks such as Je ratt lagghe kappree jama hoi pleet and next tuk about MANSA DRINKING BLOOD is so CLEAR that its HUMANS DRINKING BLOOD..BUT still the meaning si TWISTED to Meat Eating when humans DONT DRINK BLOOD as  arule even the meat eaters..BUT Metaphoriclalay speaking..MILLIONS of HUMANS DO DRINK THE "BLOO.D" of others by taking away their Honest earnings, grabbing their lands crops unfairly, not paying them honest wages, etc etc..SUCH BLOO.D DRINKING is doen evne by the strictest of VEGETARIANS. Eating DAAL wont do any GOOD...if such a daal eater is Manager/ceo of a factory that sucks the bloo.d and cuts the throats of workers via slashing overtime rates, bonuses, etc etc etc...MALIK BHAGO DID NOT DRINK BLOO.D as SUCH...the BLOO.D THAT CAME OUT OF HIS ROTI WASNT COW BLOO.D?GOAT BLOO.D?CHICKEN BLOO.D..IT WAS HUMAN BLOO.D !!!
GURBANI si so clear and Transparent..we humans CLOUD IT to push OUR own views and agendas...


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## prakash.s.bagga (Feb 8, 2011)

It is wrong to say that anything written in Gurbaani is 500 old  so what,Whatever is said in Gurbaani is 'ATAL" and is applicable for any times to come.Gurbaani  is concerned with the character of the whole humanity.

Gurbaani is absolutely clear .Definitely the problem is with the view of mam .Any person wants to make use of interpretation for his convenience only to justify his conduct in the society.BUT HOW ONE CAN HIDE FROM HIS SATIGUR WHO KNOWS EVERYTHING.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Feb 8, 2011)

we cannot deny the facts..Guur Nanak ji wrote this 500 years ago....and He used the word ASANKH in those times....meaning He had farsighted vision much deeper than the surface.
Its not my intention to say that Gurbani is "old"..its ETERNAL..YES JI...it is. What Farid Ji wrote is even OLDER than Guru nanak Ji...physically speaking...BUT the Message is eternal..YES JI it is..japposatnamwaheguru:


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## chamkaur brar (Feb 8, 2011)

Are we all of us are moorakh ? and clever is Pandit [PRiest]. Look at the whole Shabad on page 1289 and 1290. in raag Malaar. Guru Nanak has explained very well. More over He wrote " BABA HOR KHANNA KHUSHI kHUAR, IJT KHADA MAN PEERHIAI TAN MYI CHALAH VIKAR.'
 I'm attaching whole shabad. Every body can understAND THEN MAKE DECISION.
mwsu mwsu kir mUrKu JgVy igAwnu iDAwnu nhI jwxY ] (1289-15, mlwr, mÚ 1)<?"urn:fficeffice" />
maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
 kauxu mwsu kauxu swgu khwvY iksu mih pwp smwxy ] (1289-16, mlwr, mÚ 1)
ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
 gYNfw mwir hom jg kIey dyviqAw kI bwxy ] (1289-17, mlwr, mÚ 1)
gai<SUP>N</SUP>daa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.
 mwsu Coif bYis nku pkVih rwqI mwxs Kwxy ] (1289-17, mlwr, mÚ 1)
maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
 PVu kir lokW no idKlwvih igAwnu iDAwnu nhI sUJY ] (1289-17, mlwr, mÚ 1)
farh kar lokaa<SUP>N</SUP> no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
 nwnk AMDy isau ikAw khIAY khY n kihAw bUJY ] (1289-18, mlwr, mÚ 1)
naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.
 AMDw soie ij AMDu kmwvY iqsu irdY is locn nwhI ] (1289-19, mlwr, mÚ 1)
anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.
 mwq ipqw kI rkqu inpMny mCI mwsu n KWhI ] (1289-19, mlwr, mÚ 1)
maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaa<SUP>N</SUP>hee.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.
pMnw 1290 
 iesqRI purKY jW inis mylw EQY mMDu kmwhI ] (1290-1, mlwr, mÚ 1)
istaree purkhai jaa<SUP>N</SUP> nis maylaa othai manDh kamaahee.
But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.
 mwshu inMmy mwshu jMmy hm mwsY ky BWfy ] (1290-1, mlwr, mÚ 1)
maasahu nimmay maasahu jammay ham maasai kay bhaa<SUP>N</SUP>day.
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.
 igAwnu iDAwnu kCu sUJY nwhI cquru khwvY pWfy ] (1290-2, mlwr, mÚ 1)
gi-aan Dhi-aan kachh soojhai naahee chatur kahaavai paa<SUP>N</SUP>day.
You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.
 bwhr kw mwsu mMdw suAwmI Gr kw mwsu cMgyrw ] (1290-2, mlwr, mÚ 1)
baahar kaa maas mandaa su-aamee ghar kaa maas changayraa.
O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.
 jIA jMq siB mwshu hoey jIie lieAw vwsyrw ] (1290-3, mlwr, mÚ 1)
jee-a jant sabh maasahu ho-ay jee-ay la-i-aa vaasayraa.
All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh.
 ABKu BKih BKu qij Cofih AMDu gurU ijn kyrw ] (1290-3, mlwr, mÚ 1)
abhakh bhakheh bhakh taj chhodeh anDh guroo jin kayraa.
They eat the uneatable; they 
mwshu inMmy mwshu jMmy hm mwsY ky BWfy ] (1290-4, mlwr, mÚ 1)
maasahu nimmay maasahu jammay ham maasai kay bhaa<SUP>N</SUP>day.
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.
 igAwnu iDAwnu kCu sUJY nwhI cquru khwvY pWfy ] (1290-4, mlwr, mÚ 1)
gi-aan Dhi-aan kachh soojhai naahee chatur kahaavai paa<SUP>N</SUP>day.
You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.
 mwsu purwxI mwsu kqybˆØI chu juig mwsu kmwxw ] (1290-4, mlwr, mÚ 1)
maas puraanee maas kaytaabee<SUP>N</SUP> chahu jug maas kamaanaa.
Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.
 jij kwij vIAwih suhwvY EQY mwsu smwxw ] (1290-5, mlwr, mÚ 1)
jaj kaaj vee-aahi suhaavai othai maas samaanaa.
It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.
 iesqRI purK inpjih mwshu pwiqswh sulqwnW ] (1290-5, mlwr, mÚ 1)
istaree purakh nipjahi maasahu paatisaah sultaanaa<SUP>N</SUP>.
Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.
 jy Eie idsih nrik jWdy qW aun@ kw dwnu n lYxw ] (1290-6, mlwr, mÚ 1)
jay o-ay diseh narak jaa<SUP>N</SUP>day taa<SUP>N</SUP> un<SUP>H</SUP> kaa daan na lainaa.
If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them.
 dyNdw nrik surig lYdy dyKhu eyhu iD|wxw ] (1290-7, mlwr, mÚ 1)
day<SUP>N</SUP>daa narak surag laiday daykhhu ayhu Dhinyaanaa.
The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice.
 Awip n bUJY lok buJwey pWfy Krw isAwxw ] (1290-7, mlwr, mÚ 1)
aap na boojhai lok bujhaa-ay paa<SUP>N</SUP>day kharaa si-aanaa.
You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed.
 pWfy qU jwxY hI nwhI ikQhu mwsu aupMnw ] (1290-7, mlwr, mÚ 1)
paa<SUP>N</SUP>day too jaanai hee naahee kithhu maas upannaa.
O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.
 qoieAhu AMnu kmwdu kpwhW qoieAhu iqRBvxu gMnw ] (1290-8, mlwr, mÚ 1)
to-i-ahu ann kamaad kapaahaa<SUP>N</SUP> to-i-ahu taribhavan gannaa.
Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.
 qoAw AwKY hau bhu ibiD hCw qoAY bhuqu ibkwrw ] (1290-8, mlwr, mÚ 1)
to-aa aakhai ha-o baho biDh hachhaa toai bahut bikaaraa.
Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms.
 eyqy rs Coif hovY sMinAwsI nwnku khY ivcwrw ]2] (1290-9, mlwr, mÚ 1)
aytay ras chhod hovai sani-aasee naanak kahai vichaaraa. ||2||
Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||
Pauree:
, mlwr, mÚ 1)


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## jasi (Feb 9, 2011)

SS AKALJI.

With all the respect my concern is all Eskimo,Inuit,Saberions live over three thousand years on meat but meat for thier survial.

Accroding to our readings and single out meat eating as written "ASANKH GAL WAD HATYA KAMAAHi PAURI 18 means all these people are destined for HELL.

Many Prophets ,Gurus came in this world to show us the ways to realize the TRUTH (GOD) by same ways until whole thing is distorted by preachers or custodian of any organized religion.

Meat eating or any thing consuming is entirely  personal  choice of each of us

But some people who visited Mecca for Haj ,come back to his folks and made their life by miserable by advising every one to go for HAZ instead of changing himself.

We are what we think and thinking can be imporved by reading the Gurbani to understand its true meanings. 

Jaspi


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## manes_palam (Feb 9, 2011)

Jhatka or Halal

i have done my hotel management ...   and i was amazed to learn this when they taught us  ...about the procedures in the abatoirs ....

when the animal is brought into the slaughter houses they are kept  very comfortably so their is no stress .... even when they slaughter them ..  first they quickly stun them with a bullet in the head (and they are completely down in a sec)...  they do this as they don;t want stress harmones to be released into the blood which then into the flesh , which we eat. and then they do their cleaning process and the meat is harmless for the human body to consume.................this is equal to jhatka ...where head is chopped off quickly( we also cant do jhatka to bigger animals) halal does it slowly ......  where animal is under constant stress... but they cut the main chord which carries blood close to neck and let all the blood drain off...which is again harmless meat as all the hormones are out through blood.

i guess muslims cant halal pigs coz of thick skin(pig can only be killed by stabbing in the heart or stun gun )  that's why its haram.

gurus or prophets always had logic behind everything they did....probaly guru gobind singh ji    prohibited  halal just to challenge mughal empire ...  where he preffered jhatka better meat as well. jhatka or halal really didn;t make a taste difference as long as its hormone free ....    but it makes sense if you want to challenge someone...

i have seen abatoirs in australia which are halal certified and only thing they do is play a tape while doing their job.

i had a muslim customer came to our restaurant and she wont eat any meat as this is not halal...but she will eat fish or prawns ....everyone was laughing in the kitchenn as we dont halal fish either ....she might had her own reasons may she thought of fish not having blood . i dont know ...  fanatic or logical .....

and about myself im not vegetarian / nor im non vegetarian ....   every person has its own circumstances .... i guess what ill do if im lost in a desert ...  eat lizards .....eat whatever that takes one to chardikala

waheguru


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## Randip Singh (Feb 9, 2011)

Rupinder.Singh said:


> I base my opinion on the following definitions
> 
> Halal:
> Halal actually means lawful. In islamic terms Halal means anything that is lawful in Islam religion.
> ...



Excellent post!


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 9, 2011)

manes_palam said:


> Jhatka or Halal
> 
> i have done my hotel management ...   and i was amazed to learn this when they taught us  ...about the procedures in the abatoirs ....
> 
> ...


manes_palam ji, wow great to the point post on the thread subject.

Trying to bring in too much pseudo spirituality into everything can sometimes be counter-productive as some of the posts have shown in this thread.  But to each their own.

Yup I also mentioned about the "tape music" disco halal in Canada too.lol

Thank you so much.

Sat Sri Akal.mundahug


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## Randip Singh (Feb 9, 2011)

jaspi said:


> SS AKALJI.
> 
> With all the respect my concern is all Eskimo,Inuit,Saberions live over three thousand years on meat but meat for thier survial.
> 
> ...



Jaspi ji,

I think we have had this conversation on fools who wrangle over flesh. their is only one shabad where meat is tackled, and that is quoted.

Every other shabad that people claim to be about meat is usually twisted to mean that.


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