# Two Questions About Sikhism: Place Of Raaj Yoga? Place Of Homosexuality?



## dalbirk (Dec 27, 2008)

I have come across this site which states that homosexuality is perfectly admissible in Sikhism . I always had this impression that Sikhism is the religion of the householder , if it is so how come homosexuality is allowed because homosexuals cannot raise a family & bear children . Secondly there is a concept of RAAJ YOGA in Sikhism , what is this concept exactly . If it is some form of Yogic activity how come it is allowed while other Yogic activities have been denounced in Sikhism . The site is :

www.projectnaad.com sikhism rebuttal to islam

I wish members to kindly share their views .


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 27, 2008)

Homosexuality is a counterproductive reaction against the onslaught of woman upon mankind by feminism. It is merely a symptom of an unbalanced and diseased society in urgent need of guidance. We cannot focus healthy, pure enlightened minds upon the debauchery of angry souls. God’s house of religion is under threat by such wilful contingent of social misfits usurping and pillaging the rights of the good to voice the demands and illicit contentions of the rebellious. Gay men are modest and retain as their personal and private life their leanings and inclinations. For a wholesome and godward society to be led by a filth ridden media to discussing the failure and inability to lose ego of social deviants and the results of their anti social angry meanderings, it is grossly unfair upon the cultured, civilised and silent greater good. It is time for a broken and fractured civilised respectability to break the silence and refuse such immoral discussions and pursuits in the sanctum of truth seekers and devotee’s of the God of Love, Virtue and Honour. Let the media deal with its subversives and their penchant for a sodom and gomorrohite perversity, and protect religion and the house of God from invasion and siege of such types. Should they wish to enter religion and church they are required to shed their selfish needs and conform or remain as media amusement fodder and the subject of curious speculation by the idle and equally perverse ...


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## spnadmin (Dec 27, 2008)

Ji,

There is a difference between approving of something and holding back judgment. There is nothing specifically against homosexuality in the Bani of the Guru. The Gurus had raised their consciousness above and beyond -- their warning is against "kaam" of any kind. For each and everyone the promise of mukhti is ever-present. And never is there hatred or animosity as the Gurus were imbued with God's love for his creation.


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## spnadmin (Dec 27, 2008)

Raaj yoga is one of several forms of yoga practiced alone or in conjunction with other yogas. My own understanding is that it has appeal within the Hindu path, but it is not practiced exclusively by Hindus. Here is a good link getting to the philosophical nature of raaj yoga.

Raja Yoga

*Please see Shiv Singh Khalsa's correction on the next page. *


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## shearwater (Dec 28, 2008)

The sickness of homosexuality arises from two situations: a predisposition based on female stress and poor diet during the 16th week of pregnancy & human choice based on psychosexual identity arising from cultural sickness; i.e. single parent families, births out of wedlock, divorce, etc. If a pregnant woman does not have proper nutrition during pregnancy, her male child may be born with female characteristics because all fetuses up to a certain time express female gender characteristics.  During the 16th week of pregnancy, the female connections of a male baby's brain are dissolved by a rush of testosterone in the male and thereafter he expresses male characteristics. Children from these parents may be left handed rather than right, when they arive at puberty their voices may be higher pitched, etc.  In any case, the other situation is where a female has a sexual encounter and remains a single female parent raising her family alone.  The boy baby identifies with female qualities during his puberty and makes female choices rather than male, thereby becoming homosexual.  This may be a bit over simplistic.  But western society is fraught with divorce and licentiousness which engenders these kinds of social and cultural diseases.  Homosexuals should be treated as human beings who God loves and desires to heal and restore to their normal humanity.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 28, 2008)

The constant bleating of the perils of judgmentalism stems from a breed of social deviants reluctant to admit their own deficiency or erring and demanding the right of speech and contrary socially unacceptable opinion within the established sanctum of the wise and respectable. Inter racial marriages, divorce, and promiscuity and the resultant outcry for public sanction by these groups exonerates the role of modern day women play in these acts. Homosexuals who hate women were raised by domineering women who look the other way whilst they were abused or neglected. 99% of divorces are caused by a predatory woman leading astray a man from his family and home. Love and bonding between men is to be encouraged but the modern day counterproductive disease and demands of feminists and their victims the homosexuals require remedy. This cannot be executed whilst hypocritical sympathisers of feminists and homosexuals encourage and accord rights rather than remedy and cure. It is tragic how good moral and devoted wives amend mothers are abandoned to raise children whilst philanderers indulge their whims and muses. Since the media and society is plagued by this selfish creed who betray the father, and family’s honour to indulge their own whim and lustfulness, counter war cry’s from such parties are inevitable. The root cause of all social decay is the so called emancipation and liberation of feminists who have wrecked the institution of matrimony, the sacred name of love in whose name their commit their adulteries and treacheries against man and civilised society. So many good women strung up, and their offspring broken and with abandonment issues because of the perversities of modern stray unfettered women. The entire family structure, and house of religion is under threat by escalating divorce, selfish egotism, inter racial cross breeding resulting in displaced and confused children, it is true.

It would appear all is permissible, discrediting of standing and values, the discipline of religious fundamentals, the dismantling of blasphemy laws to indulge and pander to a breed of irreligious malcontents. To abuse God and religion is par for the course as atheism rises, smashing all social traditions and culturalism is permissible, idiocracy sitting in criticism of spiritual wisdom they have no understanding is encouraged in the name of free speech, excepting calling these malcontents what they are, a social disease, that bodes no allay considering the government and media are infiltrated and ruled by them. The laughable insinuations that genetic misprint in the womb causes such behaviour adds to the weight of evidence against such speculators of societal good masquerading as truth seekers or the religious do gooders. Shed your own personal ego prior to entering the establishment of religion rather than expecting religion to submit to your idiosyncrasies is the moral value to be learnt.


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## spnadmin (Dec 28, 2008)

ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਦੂਜੀ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਗਿ ॥ 
jinee naam visaariaa dhoojee kaarai lag ||
Those who have forgotten the Naam, the Name of the Lord, are attached to affairs of duality.
  
ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਲਾਗੇ ਪਚਿ ਮੁਏ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਅਗਿ ॥ 
dhubidhhaa laagae pach mueae anthar thrisanaa ag ||
Attached to duality, they putrefy and die; they are filled with the fire of desire within.
  
 ਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਖੇ ਸੇ ਉਬਰੇ ਹੋਰਿ ਮੁਠੀ ਧੰਧੈ ਠਗਿ ॥੨॥ 
gur raakhae sae oubarae hor muthee dhhandhhai thag ||2||
Those who are protected by the Guru are saved; all others are cheated and plundered by deceitful worldly affairs. ||2||
  
ਮੁਈ ਪਰੀਤਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਗਇਆ ਮੁਆ ਵੈਰੁ ਵਿਰੋਧੁ ॥ 
muee pareeth piaar gaeiaa muaa vair virodhh ||
 Love dies, and affection vanishes. Hatred and alienation die.
  
 ਧੰਧਾ ਥਕਾ ਹਉ ਮੁਈ ਮਮਤਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ॥ 
dhhandhhaa thhakaa ho muee mamathaa maaeiaa krodhh ||
Entanglements end, and egotism dies, along with attachment to Maya, possessiveness and anger.
  
ਕਰਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਚੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਰੋਧੁ ॥੩॥ 
karam milai sach paaeeai guramukh sadhaa nirodhh ||3||
Those who receive His Mercy obtain the True One. The Gurmukhs dwell forever in balanced restraint. ||3||
  
 ਸਚੀ ਕਾਰੈ ਸਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਪਲੈ ਪਾਇ ॥ 
sachee kaarai sach milai guramath palai paae ||
By true actions, the True Lord is met, and the Guru's Teachings are found.
  
 ਸੋ ਨਰੁ ਜੰਮੈ ਨਾ ਮਰੈ ਨਾ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
so nar janmai naa marai naa aavai naa jaae ||
Then, they are not subject to birth and death; they do not come and go in reincarnation.
  
ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰਿ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ਸੋ ਦਰਗਹਿ ਪੈਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੪॥ 
naanak dhar paradhhaan so dharagehi paidhhaa jaae ||4||14||
O Nanak, they are respected at the Lord's Gate; they are robed in honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||14||
​


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## spnadmin (Dec 28, 2008)

Back to dalbirk's question regardnig raja *correciton raaj *yoga. Yoga* jog* refers to making a connection, joining, relating to. And from this comes the idea of creating or finding harmony within. Guru Arjan Dev speaks on Ang 188 about Raja Yoga as the yoga of meditation and success -- quite apart from the traditions of physcial yogas, his idea is that one should be seeking the purity of Naam.

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ 
gourree mehalaa 5 ||
Gauree, Fifth Mehl:

  
 ਪੂਰਾ ਮਾਰਗੁ *ਪੂਰਾ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥ *
pooraa maarag *pooraa eisanaan ||*
Perfect is the path; *perfect is the cleansing bath.
*   
*ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਨਾਮੁ ॥੧॥ 
sabh kishh pooraa hiradhai naam ||1||
Everything is perfect, if the Naam is in the heart. ||1||*
  
 ਪੂਰੀ ਰਹੀ ਜਾ ਪੂਰੈ ਰਾਖੀ ॥ 
pooree rehee jaa poorai raakhee ||
One's honor remains perfect, when the Perfect Lord preserves it.
  
ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਜਨ ਤਾਕੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
paarabreham kee saran jan thaakee ||1|| rehaao ||
His servant takes to the Sanctuary of the Supreme Lord God. ||1||Pause||
  
 ਪੂਰਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ॥ 
pooraa sukh pooraa santhokh ||
Perfect is the peace; perfect is the contentment.
  
 *ਪੂਰਾ ਤਪੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ॥੨॥ 
pooraa thap pooran raaj jog ||2||
Perfect is the penance; perfect is the **Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||2||*
  
 ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਤਿਤ ਪੁਨੀਤ ॥ 
har kai maarag pathith puneeth ||
On the Lord's Path, sinners are purified.
  
 ਪੂਰੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਪੂਰਾ ਲੋਕੀਕ ॥੩॥ 
pooree sobhaa pooraa lokeek ||3||
Perfect is their glory; perfect is their humanity. ||3||
  
 ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ਸਦ ਵਸੈ ਹਦੂਰਾ ॥ 
karanehaar sadh vasai hadhooraa ||
They dwell forever in the Presence of the Creator Lord.
  
 ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ॥੪॥੪੫॥੧੧੪॥ 
kahu naanak maeraa sathigur pooraa ||4||45||114||
Says Nanak, my True Guru is Perfect. ||4||45||114||

Purity of mind, heart and soul accomplished by meditation, dwelling in the Naam, in the Presence of the Creator Lord. Guru Arjun Dev's words echo those of Guru Nanak who spoke, Let purity be your yoga and by "yoga" Guru Nanak meant, Your way of joining with creation or relating to and encountering everything.  Guru Nanak

ਖਿੰਥਾ ਕਾਲੁ ਕੁਆਰੀ ਕਾਇਆ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਡੰਡਾ ਪਰਤੀਤਿ ॥
        khinthhaa kaal kuaaree kaaeiaa *jugath *ddanddaa paratheeth ||
               Let the remembrance of death be the patched coat you wear, let the purity of virginity be your way in the world, and let faith in the Lord be your walking stick.

There are problems with the English translation above; however the idea of *jugath* in bold font -- let jugath, your yoga, your joining, connecting, relating, be in purity. The Guru's use yoga in the sense of connecting or joining with the immaculate presence of Akaal, and from that connection our relationships with everything else can be likewise pure. ​


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## spnadmin (Dec 28, 2008)

There are several references to raja *correction raaj *yoga in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. In two places the Bhats (families of poet-troubadours in Northern India) refer to both Guru Ram Das and Guru Arjan Dev as masters of raja  *corection raaj* yoga. This is found in the Savayay, or hymns of the Bhats in honor of the Sikh Gurus. Bhats were monotheistic Hindus. 

*I stand corrected in a following post by Shiv Singh Khalsa who correctly points out that raaj yoga is not the same as raja yoga. Thanks for clearing that up. I should have stated above "raaj" not "raja"   *

Link to Shabad on Page1399 Raag Sava-yay (praise of Guru Ram Das: Nal

        ਸਭ ਬਿਧਿ ਮਾਨ੍ਯ੍ਯਿਉ ਮਨੁ ਤਬ ਹੀ ਭਯਉ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨੁ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਤਖਤੁ ਦੀਅਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ॥੪॥
        sabh bidhh maaniyo man thab hee bhayo prasann raaj jog thakhath dheean gur raamadhaas ||4||
               When His mind was totally satisfied in every way, when He was totally pleased, He bestowed upon Guru Raam Daas the Throne of Raja Yoga. ||4||

Link to Page 1407 Raag Sava-yay (praise of Guru Arjan Dev: Kal

        ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯੁਚਰੈ ਤੈ ਰਾਜ ਜੋਗ ਰਸੁ ਜਾਣਿਅਉ ॥੭॥
        gur arajun kalyaacharai thai raaj jog ras jaaniao ||7||
               So speaks KALL the poet: O Guru Arjun, You know the sublime essence of Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||7||

In praising the Sikh Gurus the Bhat NALL is extolling the transformation of self, spirit and soul, from base and worldly to precious and spiritual --* simply by contact with the spiritual perfection of Guru Ram Das.*  ਨਲ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਕਵਿ ਪਾਰਸ ਪਰਸ ਕਚ ਕੰਚਨਾ ਹੁਇ ਚੰਦਨਾ ਸੁਬਾਸੁ ਜਾਸੁ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਅਨ ਤਰ ॥ naly kav paaras paras kach kanchanaa hue chandhanaa subaas jaas simarath an thar || So speaks NALL the poet: touching the Philosopher's Stone, glass is transformed into gold, and the sandalwood tree imparts its fragrance to other trees; meditating in remembrance on the Lord, I am transformed. 

Guru Ram Das is likened to the philosopher's stone which changes or transforms base metal into gold. Likewise through meditation of God the poet is transformed. The fragrance of sandalwood (spiritual perfection) spreads from master to NALL the student. 

Later in the Bani, the Bhat extols Guru Arjun Dev who he says carries the banner of God. ਅਗਹ ਗਹਣੁ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭ੍ਰਾਂਤਿ ਦਹਣੁ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਸੁਖ ਦਾਤਉ ॥ ageh gehan bhram bhraanth dhehan seethal sukh dhaatho || You have grasped the Ungraspable, and burnt away doubt and skepticism. You bestow cooling and soothing peace.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 28, 2008)

*What is Raja Yoga?*​
Raja Yoga is a system of knowledge and meditation practices to empower us to experience our own inner greatness and happiness and for creating positive change in society at large. It suggests that happiness is our true nature. 
At present the tendency of relying on the external world to make us happy makes us more and more dependent on the outside world and that tendency creates a corresponding sense of emptiness in the self. This life of dependency promotes more dependency and misery. The Raja Yoga method of meditation is aimed at helping us to get in touch with our original inner happiness. 
The reason for our loss of happiness is that we are challenging some basic laws of nature.  Nature has a beautiful system of drawing attention to danger or the wrong direction by causing discomfort. For example, a wrong posture will cause discomfort before it damages any joints. The discomfort is meant to give a message. The same mechanism is at work in more complex discomforts like pain, illness and emotional sorrow. 
Wisdom lies in learning before the pain message comes. When we come back to the greatness of the self and then interact with the world outside, such a life is both emotionally rich and healthy.  
This knowledge is the highest knowledge because it is based on wisdom. It frees us from dependency and makes us the master (Raja). The knowledge and its practice can free us from all forms of sorrow and allow our original state of peace, happiness and compassion to re-emerge.​ 
Raja Yoga is the highest pinnacle of the path of enlightenment. It supersedes and overcomes such issues as sexual orientation and liaisons arising from certain preferences and the psychological reasons for such life choices. I have not studied Raja Yoga, but from resources on the internet it appears to be the state of sahej, or absolute peace and intellectual transcendentalism attained by man during his life cycle. As you imply it overrides any such statements or need to seek sanctioning of any behaviour considered deviant to societal norm and the resulting fracas and animosity arising from such declarations. Raja Yoga implies it is preferable to cure the desire and will inciting want from subconscious source and root cause than to seek blessing from a society. Love is pure and sacred between same gender and opposites. Physical love is contained within the sanctum of matrimony. Although fleshly pursuits are respite from daily chores and stresses, Raja Yoga sets its devotees higher goals to aim towards than defiant anti social behaviour for what is symptomatic of hatred. Such earthly life choices and pastimes are embroiled with cultural, peer, societal or expected norms of behaviour. Yes such persons can force a generations acceptance, it would not be required to do so if there was Love involved, there is not, just a deep seated anger and need to flout convention at times the individuals themselves aren’t aware of. Destroy the hate and thereafter love and abide with whom you so wish with the blessings of one’s mutual fold. Life is an adventure challenge, travel it well and play to succeed, true success is keeping in accord with all whilst living according to one’s own wishes and target, mindful of why each has certain changing goals and agendas transient as time and emotional phases itself.


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## spnadmin (Dec 28, 2008)

What was the place of the Bhats in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib? And what was their connection to raja yoga?

About the Bhatt Sahibann. Bards/Bhatts in Adi Granth : Search Gurbani.com
The main purpose of these savaiye is to  acclaim the Gurus, not as        individuals but as the revelation they embodied.The Bhatts see the Gurus        as one light, as one spirit passing from one body to the other. Bhatt Kirat        for instance: "Just as (Guru) Angad was ever the part of Guru Nãnak's being        so is Guru Ram Dãs of (Guru) Amar Dãs's" Again, Bhatt Kalh: "From Guru Nanak        was Angad: from Angad, Amar Dãs received sublime rank. From Guru Ram Das        descended Guru Arjan, the great devotee of God" (GG, 1407). This concept        of all the Gurus being one light, one voice has informed all along the Sikh        belief and development and constitutes today a fundamental  principle       of the faith.


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## pk70 (Dec 28, 2008)

*Dalbirk ji*

*Carefully read aad0002 posts in this regards, they are very helpful because they express spiritual behavior a Guru Nanak’s follower should display towards others. Raj Yoga is also almost made clear by her as she states how it is used in Gurbani, it has nothing to do with the physical exercises. Guru ji was called Raaj Yogi as he being a family man enjoyed the yog unlike others who got buried under the sludge of yoga theory. I wrote an article, posted on SPN “Gurbani and Yoga and other practices”, in it, Raaj Yoga is defined through Gurbani itself, not by me or others. Please check it out.*


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## Balkar Singh (Jul 3, 2009)

It s rubbish to talk about Raaj Yoga attached with "homo.........". It is a sickness of mind and body, derived from inhuman society. Animals never do it . It is not natural. For God's sake keep this discussion away from humans. It will be disastrous. The world is already facing incurable STDs. 

Sikhism is hardcore against five great evils and lust (kaam) is the first and worst of all. It is damned throughout the sikh philosophy.Only a celebrated marrige between the man and woman is accepted and respected.

It is said that Adem and eve disobeyed God and they were thrown out of the paradise. The nature of menfolk is still the same. God !!!!! save the humanity .They do not know what they are talking about ..................


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## Archived_Member_19 (Jul 3, 2009)

<Animals never do it .>

Balkar ji

here are a few links

Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate

Against nature (3) - Naturhistorisk Museum


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## spnadmin (Jul 3, 2009)

Balkar Singh said:


> It s rubbish to talk about Raaj Yoga attached with "homo.........". It is a sickness of mind and body, derived from inhuman society. Animals never do it . It is not natural. For God's sake keep this discussion away from humans. It will be disastrous. The world is already facing incurable STDs.
> 
> Sikhism is hardcore against five great evils and lust (kaam) is the first and worst of all. It is damned throughout the sikh philosophy.Only a celebrated marrige between the man and woman is accepted and respected.
> 
> It is said that Adem and eve disobeyed God and they were thrown out of the paradise. The nature of menfolk is still the same. God !!!!! save the humanity .They do not know what they are talking about ..................



Balkar Singh ji

I appreciate your comments. Let me explain that I just minutes ago changed the title of this thread. *Originally it was Homosexuality and Raj Yoga. That sounded as if the two were somehow connected which they are not. Here is the root of the problem. *There is a misunderstanding because the first person to post was asking two completely separate questions. You can see in Post 1 there are two unconnected questions. One question was about homosexuality. Another question was about Raj Yoga. So I changed the title to say Two Questions. Actually I may have to split the thread because it seems that the editorial change has not worked either.


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## ISDhillon (Jul 3, 2009)

> Homosexuality is a counterproductive reaction against the onslaught of woman upon mankind by feminism.



Then why has it existed in every patriarchal society throughout the history of mankind?




> It is merely a symptom of an unbalanced and diseased society in urgent need of guidance.



Depends on what your trying to cure? feminism is a good thing, countries which have gays and lesbians, and equal rights for women are guiders not learners, indeed india and other developing countries are learning more and more from these guiders and will continue to do so.  One country can only teach another country when it has something to teach, india has nothing that I want to learn from.



> We cannot focus healthy, pure enlightened minds upon the debauchery of angry souls.



This is rhetoric from someone bitter who is so frustrated with reality that he has to create his own reality through colorful words.  There is no debauchery there are no angry souls.



> God’s house of religion is under threat by such wilful contingent of social misfits usurping and pillaging the rights of the good to voice the demands and illicit contentions of the rebellious.



God has no home of religion, god is within all people and there are no rebels, there is no pillaging of the good - None of these things are happening in fact society today is good, better and more "divine" than it ever has been but you see you just can't spin that no matter what wording you use, reality for the "religious MAN" is hard to spin

You see the best way to give response to the rest of your post is to simply tell you "its all in your head my dear all in your head".

I challenge you to be real!:yes:


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## Shiva Singh Khalsa (Jul 3, 2009)

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe guru Ji Ki Fateh

1. Raaj Yoga is different from Raja Yoga, the latter a specific part of Patanjali's 8 limbs of yoga. Raaj Yoga refers to: By your presence you heal and uplift.

2. Yes we are a householder path, but there is nothing in Guru's Bani that specifically speaks against Homosexuality. In fact many of the shabads have gender nuetral metaphors of bride of God, spouse, etc. Though not a verification of being gay, in every way the Guru reminds us that the Divine embraces us all, regardless.

3. I am suspect of someone who makes remarks referring to "the Church" on  a Sikh forum, and points negatively at "inter-racial marriage" and uses language such as "a predatory woman leading astray a man from his family and home".

Fateh


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## spnadmin (Jul 3, 2009)

Shiva Singh Khalsa said:


> Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe guru Ji Ki Fateh
> 
> 1. Raaj Yoga is different from Raja Yoga, the latter a specific part of Patanjali's 8 limbs of yoga. Raaj Yoga refers to: By your presence you heal and uplift.
> 
> ...




Shiv Singh  Khalsa ji -- Thank you for these clarifications.


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## spnadmin (Jul 5, 2009)

Forum members,

This evening I received an email from someone who expressed serious concerns about a reference to the "sludge" of yoga theory in an earlier post in this thread. I am coming back now to the discussion of the relationship of "yoga" and "raaj yoga" in relation to the Bani of our Gurus.

No where does Guru Nanak impugn yoga as "sludge." The question of whether raaj yoga is different from raja yoga is somewhat trickier. 

From my readings, which are not extensive enough to make me an expert, even within yoga communities of scholarship, there is a distinction made between physical yogas and raaj/raja yoga. Shiv Singh Khalsa is correct in stating that raaj yoga is one of the 8 limbs of yoga. And it is the yoga that is uplifting and healing. Yet when the bhagats called Guru Ram Dass a master of raaj yoga they are referring to Guruji's perfectly formed identity through the jug or yoga or union with the Divine Creator. 


About the Bhatt Sahibann. Bards/Bhatts in Adi Granth : Search Gurbani.com
_The main purpose of these savaiye is to acclaim the Gurus, not as individuals but as the revelation they embodied.The Bhatts see the Gurus as one light, as one spirit passing from one body to the other. Bhatt Kirat for instance: "Just as (Guru) Angad was ever the part of Guru Nãnak's being so is Guru Ram Dãs of (Guru) Amar Dãs's" Again, Bhatt Kalh: "From Guru Nanak was Angad: from Angad, Amar Dãs received sublime rank. From Guru Ram Das descended Guru Arjan, the great devotee of God" (GG, 1407). This concept of all the Gurus being one light, one voice has informed all along the Sikh        belief and development and constitutes today a fundamental  principle       of the faith.         _


Splitting the difference between raaj and raja yoga may not be completely helpful in our vichaar of Gurbani. 

This is the point that Guru Nanak has attempted to make. Yoga is not bad/negative/undesirable. Guru Nanak is saying that there is more to yoga than we realize. 

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
guramukh nij ghar vaasaa hoe ||
The Gurmukh dwells in the home of the self, deep within.
 
 ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜੋਗੀ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥ 
guramukh jogee jugath pashhaanai ||
The Gurmukh realizes the Way of Yoga.
 
 ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ॥੬੯॥ 
guramukh naanak eaeko jaanai ||69||
O Nanak, the Gurmukh knows the One Lord alone. ||69||
 
 ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ 
bin sathigur saevae jog n hoee ||
Without serving the True Guru, Yoga is not attained;
 
 ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭੇਟੇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥ 
bin sathigur bhaettae mukath n koee ||
without meeting the True Guru, no one is liberated.
 
 ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭੇਟੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
bin sathigur bhaettae naam paaeiaa n jaae ||
Without meeting the True Guru, the Naam cannot be found.


Ang 946

There are many other shabads that make this point as well.


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## spnadmin (Jul 5, 2009)

*From the blog KaurKhalaRaj.wordpress.com: *

By mere words, Yoga is not attained.  Kaurkhalsaraj's Blog

Two items on yoga,
*This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Soohee on Pannaa 730 *  sUhI mhlw 1 Gru 7
  s*oo*h*ee* mehal*aa* 1 ghar 7
 _Soohee, First Mehla, Seventh House:_
 
<> siqgur pRswid ]
  ik oa(n)kaar sath*i*g*u*r pras*aa*dh ||
 _One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:_
 
jogu n iKMQw jogu n fMfY jogu n Bsm cVweIAY ]
  j*o*g n kh*i*(n)thh*aa* j*o*g n dda(n)dd*ai* j*o*g n bhasam charr*aa**ee**ai* ||
 _Yoga is not the patched coat, Yoga is not the walking stick. Yoga is not smearing the body with ashes._
 
jogu n muMdI mUMif mufwieAY jogu n isM|I vweIAY ]
  j*o*g n m*u*(n)dh*ee* m*oo*(n)dd m*u*dd*aa*e*i**ai* j*o*g n s*i*(n)n(g)*ee* v*aa**ee**ai* ||
 _Yoga is not the ear-rings, and not the shaven head. Yoga is not the blowing of the horn._
 
AMjn mwih inrMjin rhIAY jog jugiq iev pweIAY ]1]
  a(n)jan m*aa*h*i* n*i*ra(n)jan reh*ee**ai* j*o*g j*u*gath e*i*v p*aa**ee**ai* ||1||
 _Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world – this is the way to attain Yoga. ||1||_
 
glI jogu n hoeI ]
  gal*ee* j*o*g n h*o**ee* ||
 _By mere words, Yoga is not attained._
 
eyk idRsit kir smsir jwxY jogI khIAY soeI ]1] rhwau ]
  e*ae*k dhr*i*satt kar samasar j*aa*n*ai* j*o*g*ee* keh*ee**ai* s*o**ee* ||1|| reh*aa*o ||
 _One who looks upon all with a single eye, and knows them to be one and the same – he alone is known as a Yogi. ||1||Pause||_
 
jogu n bwhir mVI mswxI jogu n qwVI lweIAY ]
  j*o*g n b*aa*har marr*ee* mas*aa*n*ee* j*o*g n th*aa*rr*ee* l*aa**ee**ai* ||
 _Yoga is not wandering to the tombs of the dead; Yoga is not sitting in trances._
 
jogu n dyis idsMqir BivAY jogu n qIriQ nweIAY ]
  j*o*g n dh*ae*s dh*i*sa(n)thar bhav*i**ai* j*o*g n th*ee*rathh n*aa**ee**ai* ||
 _Yoga is not wandering through foreign lands; Yoga is not bathing at sacred shrines of pilgrimage._
 
AMjn mwih inrMjin rhIAY jog jugiq iev pweIAY ]2]
  a(n)jan m*aa*h*i* n*i*ra(n)jan reh*ee**ai* j*o*g j*u*gath e*i*v p*aa**ee**ai* ||2||
 _Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world – this is the way to attain Yoga. ||2||_
 
siqguru BytY qw shsw qUtY Dwvqu vrij rhweIAY ]
  sath*i*g*u*r bh*ae*tt*ai* th*aa* sehas*aa* th*oo*tt*ai* dhh*aa*vath varaj reh*aa**ee**ai* ||
 _Meeting with the True Guru, doubt is dispelled, and the wandering mind is restrained._
 
inJru JrY shj Duin lwgY Gr hI prcw pweIAY ]
  n*i*jhar jhar*ai* sehaj dhh*u*n l*aa*g*ai* ghar h*ee* parach*aa* p*aa**ee**ai* ||
 _Nectar rains down, celestial music resounds, and deep within, wisdom is obtained._
 
AMjn mwih inrMjin rhIAY jog jugiq iev pweIAY ]3]
  a(n)jan m*aa*h*i* n*i*ra(n)jan reh*ee**ai* j*o*g j*u*gath e*i*v p*aa**ee**ai* ||3||
 _Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world – this is the way to attain Yoga. ||3||_
 
nwnk jIviqAw mir rhIAY AYsw jogu kmweIAY ]
  n*aa*nak j*ee*vath*i**aa* mar reh*ee**ai* *ai*s*aa* j*o*g kam*aa**ee**ai* ||
 _O Nanak, remain dead while yet alive – practice such a Yoga._
 
vwjy bwJhu isM|I vwjY qau inrBau pdu pweIAY ]
  v*aa*j*ae* b*aa*jhah*u* s*i*(n)n(g)*ee* v*aa*j*ai* tho n*i*rabho padh p*aa**ee**ai* ||
 _When the horn is blown without being blown, then you shall attain the state of fearless dignity._
 
AMjn mwih inrMjin rhIAY jog jugiq qau pweIAY ]4]1]8]
  a(n)jan m*aa*h*i* n*i*ra(n)jan reh*ee**ai* j*o*g j*u*gath tho p*aa**ee**ai* ||4||1||8||
 _Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world – this is the way to attain Yoga. ||4||1||8||_




YouTube - Gali Jog Na hoi-bhai Harjider Singh Sri Nagar waleYouTube - Broadcast Yourself.


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## Balkar Singh (Jul 7, 2009)

Dear Narayanjot Kaur, gurfateh !!!!!

Surprisingly, we sikhs , feel everything untouchable which is written by some one called hindu or others . Actually they are our ancestors . Satguru Sahib have nowhere rejected the ancient sayings but misuse and misinterpretations of them. We respectfully accept the Puranic stories of Dhru, Prahlaad , Ajay , janmeja etc , mentioned in Gurbani but criticise the Puranas. 
Eight limbs of Yoga told by Patanjli are no wrong to keep the mind and body fit and fine to meditate or work easily/happily for many hours . what is wrong in it ? Shaheed Bhai Mani Singhji in "Sikha.N di Bhagat Mala" explains the 11th warr of Bhai Gurdass Ji , the astyoga as told by Guru Nanak Devji .
I have studied seven main Religions of India and found nothing wrong in the main texts. 
"Bed kateb kaho mat jhoothe, jhootha jo na vichare" (Gurbani) 
Sharp criticisms always end in futility.Think and follow.May follow the Gurbani and Guru-history but read and understand correctly. We should not waste time criticising others. Do not prepare Kheer if it smells u as Hindu. Thanks.
With all the best wishes 
Balkar Singh


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## Balkar Singh (Jul 7, 2009)

Place of homo.............
        itz an indecent discussion.           enough.          pl drop it now


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## Randip Singh (Jul 7, 2009)

dalbirk said:


> I have come across this site which states that homosexuality is perfectly admissible in Sikhism . I always had this impression that Sikhism is the religion of the householder , if it is so how come homosexuality is allowed because homosexuals cannot raise a family & bear children .
> 
> I wish members to kindly share their views .


 
Homosexuals can raise a family and I know many with children. Either they have adopted or other means.

Thanks


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## spnadmin (Jul 7, 2009)

Balkar ji

Thank you for your insights and for sharing information as you have. I will not be able to agree that Sikhism is reconstituted from the various Hindu paths. It is out of the question for me. What I can agree too is that Sikhism is one of the dharmic religions.

The reality that often is lost in both sides of the argument, Yoga is BAD versus Yoga is GOOD, is that the message of Guru Nanak was to show how after centuries the spiritual lessons and morality of his ancestors had been politically and economically *******ed by the Brahmin caste in his day.

This realization and Guru's  message are at the root of more than one faith forming in revolt against the demoralization of Indian society. The very same sentiments -- misreading and gross manipulation of ancient texts also led to the teachings of Buddha and the rise of Buddhism as a religion. The original vedas were even adulterated by vested political interests. So when Guru Nanak teaches, "I have read the ...and he lists all of the Hindu texts in different parts of SGGS, he is saying "YES I have read them and you people got it wrong." He wasn't alone, because more than bhatt of his day shared Guru Nanak's dismay.


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## Archived_Member5 (Jul 8, 2009)

ISDhillon said:


> Then why has it existed in every patriarchal society throughout the history of mankind?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Hinduism as the wisdom of The Gita and The Veda is Truth. It is rather the idol worship and cultural ritualism the Guru frowned upon. Extreme castism based upon prejudice rather than Spiritual Supremacy and Purity was another contentious issue. ‘’Bahroh Nirmal, Andhroh maile....’’ Buddhism and Taoism are perfect philosophies, refined derivatives of Hinduism, better suited to a culturally diverse generation seeking truth without inhibitive affiliation to rigid conformity.  Blessing for true adorers of The Lord, a nightmare for religious institutions seeking to control the rank and file of society, themselves concordant somewhat to modernist media opinionating. The Bani of Sikhism as written by Guru Nanak combines all into its own unique and condensed pure philosophy. It suits most whether practising orthodox or seeker of truth.

***Spare me the insanity jibes, ‘’the all in your head’’ nonsense. The lunatics have taken over the matrix like asylum, the good is shouted down, isolated, suppressed, the good suffer whilst extremists exploit protective measures intended for the dignified, moral and vulnerable. Your delusional rant is also ‘’all in your head’’ based upon the opinions you hold in accordance with the limitations of your intellect and morality. 

‘’Demons are all in the mind, sin is relative, witchcraft would require an ambush of suspects top convict sorcerers of the crime of manipulating another’s fate, fortune and will. Power is illusory, Atheists contend God too is all in the mind, given the aforementioned, it would hardly be surprising and perfectly explanatory.’’ 

Who are You challenging, The words are similar to mine, yet you make no reference to the poster. Kindly clarify, IDhillon. ...


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## ISDhillon (Jul 9, 2009)

> Hinduism as the wisdom of The Gita and The Veda is Truth. It is rather the idol worship and cultural ritualism the Guru frowned upon.


 
Untrue, the guru actually states in the SGGS that the gurus way transcends all the schools of hinduism, don't claim to know what sikhism is actually learn what sikhism is about, the forum was not started by a nonsikh wishing to learn about sikhism we are here to teach others if you want to learn then listen to what other participants have to say or people WILL ignore you.






> Buddhism and Taoism are perfect philosophies, refined derivatives of Hinduism, better suited to a culturally diverse generation seeking truth without inhibitive affiliation to rigid conformity.


 
This is known as religious BDSM whilst the christian faith reconsciles the selfdetermination of the others by prommoting its prophet to god the hindus just sit back and refuse to accept any independant school of thought, you my dear friend have the same ego, sikhism started to challenge peoples way of thinking and it starts with each person evan you! If you can't accept the equal covalidity of all religions based on their timespace variables you will continue to bow to your ego in the face of their selfdetermination.





> ***Spare me the insanity jibes, ‘’the all in your head’’ nonsense. The lunatics have taken over the matrix like asylum, the good is shouted down, isolated, suppressed, the good suffer whilst extremists exploit protective measures intended for the dignified, moral and vulnerable. Your delusional rant is also ‘’all in your head’’ based upon the opinions you hold in accordance with the limitations of your intellect and morality.


 
This is the opposite to militant secularism, as a cheer leader for hinduism did you not learn that hinduism believes in no duality why are you reacting and not transcending.




> ‘’Demons are all in the mind, sin is relative, witchcraft would require an ambush of suspects top convict sorcerers of the crime of manipulating another’s fate, fortune and will. Power is illusory, Atheists contend God too is all in the mind, given the aforementioned, it would hardly be surprising and perfectly explanatory.’’


 
rant!!!!, people who live in glasshouses .......




> Who are You challenging, The words are similar to mine, yet you make no reference to the poster. Kindly clarify, IDhillon. ...


[/QUOTE]

Jeetjohal

Kind regards,

Indsta


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## Archived_Member5 (Jul 9, 2009)

Quote:
Hinduism as the wisdom of The Gita and The Veda is Truth. It is rather the idol worship and cultural ritualism the Guru frowned upon. 


> ISDHILLONUntrue, the guru actually states in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that the gurus way transcends all the schools of hinduism, don't claim to know what sikhism is actually learn what sikhism is about, the forum was not started by a nonsikh wishing to learn about sikhism we are here to teach others if you want to learn then listen to what other participants have to say *or people WILL ignore you.*


 
*Indeed. Please, please feel at liberty to ignore me. My Glass House, Open Mind, and Universal Spirit Withstands Scrutiny and Speculation of My Opponents Admirably.*

*I loathe loud, extremist, hateful bigots. Learn to spell and spare me the pseudo psychobabble. Do accord me the courtesy of ignoring me ...JJ.*


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