# Serious Sikh Issue !



## Archived_Member16 (Jan 7, 2008)

*India Gandhi's assassins declared martyrs at Akal Takht*

Jagmohan Singh - Hoshiarpur - Daily Pioneer 

January 7, 2008

Satwant Singh and Kehar, the assassins of former Prime Minister Indira Gandhi were declared martyrs at Akal Takht (highest Sikh Temporal Seat here on Sunday.

On Sunday morning a special religious function was organised at Akal Takht which was attended and headed by the Jatehdar Akal Takht, Gyani Joginder Singh Vedanti. 

Vedanti during the function declared Satwant Singh and Kehar Singh as martyrs of Sikh Panth as they had assassinated Indira Gandhi.

Vedanti also justified the assassination of Indira Gandhi by Satwant Singh and Kehar Singh during the religious function here on Sunday.

Satwant Singh and Kehar were hanged to death on January 6 for killing the former Prime Minister Indra Gandhi at New Delhi. 

Both had killed the late Prime Minister Indira Gandhi for sending the Indian Army to the Golden Temple to carry out operation Blue Star in 1984.


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*Congress, BJP decry SGPC glorification of Indira killers*

*TIMES OF INDIA*
*8 Jan 2008
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





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TNN*
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*NEW DELHI:* Both Congress and BJP on Monday criticized the "glorification" of Indira Gandhi's assassins by the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) as "martyrs to the cause of the Sikh nation," while a lone Punjab government official, the adviser to chief minister Parkash Singh Badal, tried damage control. 

"Eulogising the assassins of a prime minister is disturbing, dangerous and divisive," Congress spokesperson Jayanthi Natarajan said. She termed the SGPC statement as "totally violative of the Constitution, bordering on treason." Her BJP counterpart Rajiv Pratap Rudi said the SGPC move was "completely unacceptable." 

Denouncing the Sikh religious body's statement, Rudi said, "We have learnt that SGPC has commemorated the assassins of Indira Gandhi. We condemn this — it's completely unacceptable to us." 

Natarajan said that coming from a statutory body like SGPC, the statement was shocking. She pointed out that the SGPC action not just condoned Indira's killers but also "called upon the people to take to violence and terror." 

In Chandigarh, Daljeet Singh Cheema, adviser to Punjab CM Parkash Singh Badal, struck a cautious posture, saying, "What the SGPC has said is a religious affair of the body and the state government doesn't interfere with its functioning." At the same time, Cheema took care to add that his statement must not be construed as approval of Indira's killers. 

The strong Congress reaction was understandable as the SGPC act gave the party an opportunity to revive its nationalist plank and recall the sacrifice of one of its tallest leaders to the anti-terror cause much before jihadi terrorism cast its shadow on the subcontinent. 

At a time when the party is under attack from its opponents for being "soft on terror," the controversy helped it evoke Indira's death "defending the nationalist cause." 

But even as the Akali Dal-led Punjab government responded charily, various Sikh organisations sought announcement of rehabilitation and financial succour to the families of Indira's assassins. 

These bodies have also demanded raising a memorial to ‘Operation Bluestar', following which the former PM was shot dead by her bodyguards, Satwant Singh and Beant Singh. 

Speaking to TOI, chief of hardline Damdami Taksal, Harnam Singh Khalsa, said, "These people are not killers but martyrs of the Sikh nation - those who gave a fitting reply to the powers that dared attack Sikhism's sanctum sanctorum. They will always be revered by the Sikhs." 

Khalsa asked the Centre to earmark funds for all those who had suffered during the decade-long "agitation" in Punjab. Echoing his views, another office-bearer of Dal Khalsa said, "Satwant, Beant and Kehar had taken revenge for the desecration of Golden Temple and Sikhs have been honouring their martyrdom." He said the girl who was engaged to Satwant Singh, married his photograph after he was hanged. 

Meanwhile, the general house of SGPC, Sikh's single largest representative body, has resolved to raise a memorial to 'Operation Bluestar'.


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## spnadmin (Jan 7, 2008)

Soul_jyot ji,

Since you posted this there have been 0 comments and 8 views. Have to confess that I have been very reluctant to respond even now.

I know what I think. And my reaction is very clear. And at the same time do not want to be counted among those who would deny the sacrifices of a Sikh martyr.

But assassination? Is that sometimes right and sometimes wrong? Do not all assassins believe they are morally justified in their decision-- even those who assassinate one whom we despise? How do the supporters of the assassin hold the high ground in a political crisis ever again? And did the "assassins of Indira Gandhi" actually commit the crime? 

Pardon any offense on my part.


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## singh is king (Jan 8, 2008)

indra deserved that.  salute to shaheed kehar singh and satwant singh.


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## stupidjassi (Jan 8, 2008)

good job, should done before!




Soul_jyot said:


> *India Gandhi's assassins declared martyrs at Akal Takht*
> 
> Jagmohan Singh - Hoshiarpur - Daily Pioneer
> 
> ...


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## clarkejoey (Jan 8, 2008)

Will they also declare as martyrs all the people who suffered and died as a result of the riots ignited by these martyrs?


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 8, 2008)

clarkejoey said:


> Will they also declare as martyrs all the people who suffered and died as a result of the riots ignited by these martyrs?




i don't think it's fair to blame the riots in delhi on indira's killers.  the riots were instigated, planned, and encouraged by police and government officials.


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 8, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Soul_jyot ji,
> 
> Since you posted this there have been 0 comments and 8 views. Have to confess that I have been very reluctant to respond even now.
> 
> ...




historically, every person who has attacked Harimandir Sahib has died an untimely death.  indira was no exception.  after bluestar, one could easily assume that she was a threat to the sikh nation (i believe she was a threat to the entire population of india) and thus it was justified to kill her to save further lives.

personally, i'm happy to see the shaheedi status, i think it was a long time coming.  unfortunately, i think it only happened now to gain political favour for SAD.


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## stupidjassi (Jan 8, 2008)

yeah agree


jasleen_kaur said:


> historically, every person who has attacked Harimandir Sahib has died an untimely death.  indira was no exception.  after bluestar, one could easily assume that she was a threat to the sikh nation (i believe she was a threat to the entire population of india) and thus it was justified to kill her to save further lives.
> 
> personally, i'm happy to see the shaheedi status, i think it was a long time coming.  unfortunately, i think it only happened now to gain political favour for SAD.


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## spnadmin (Jan 8, 2008)

Jasleen ji




jasleen_kaur said:


> historically, every person who has attacked Harimandir Sahib has died an untimely death.  indira was no except *No question in my mind that Indira set the stage for her own violent death. Overweening pride. Blindness. Unable to understand that she too would be visited by the consequences of her actions and decisions. *
> 
> (i believe she was a threat to the entire population of india) *India moved forward faster and ****her once the Gandhi dynasty was no longer in power*.
> 
> ...


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## Lionchild (Jan 11, 2008)

*i don't think it's fair to blame the riots in delhi on indira's killers.  the riots were instigated, planned, and encouraged by police and government officials.*

well it sure didn't help the situation did it.

*and thus it was justified to kill her to save further lives.
This is the part that troubles me. And I am sure you know why.*

it sure does, especially from a convert


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## spnadmin (Jan 11, 2008)

Lionchild said:


> *and thus it was justified to kill her to save further lives.
> This is the part that troubles me. And I am sure you know why.*
> 
> it sure does, especially from a convert



Lionchild ji,

Good to hear your voice! I don't understand your answer. 

This is a dilemma for me. On the one hand I am sympathetic to, I share, the deep emotions surrounding the assassination of Indira Gandhi. Operation Bluestar was a scandal.* I remember it,* I was in my 30's when it happened. And I was horrified by the actions of the Indian government. I never forgot it.

What troubles me is whether an individual can decide to kill for the "greater good" in the way an individual defines the greater good. That is why Hiroshima and Nagasaki trouble me. The invasion of Iraq troubles me. Capital punishment troubles me. And how can one criticize any political act of assasination - truck bombers, body bombers, jihadis, etc.? They all believe they are serving a greater good. That was my point. Perhaps my words have offended you. I can't tell. If they have, then I am very sorry.

Who has the right to take another life? This is a hard question.


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## stupidjassi (Jan 11, 2008)

Lionchild said:


> *i don't think it's fair to blame the riots in delhi on indira's killers.  the riots were instigated, planned, and encouraged by police and government officials.*
> 
> well it sure didn't help the situation did it.
> 
> ...



Listen my dear friend. i know you start feeling too insecurity in Sikhism or you no more like it , i dont know why. but tell you the truth.
sikh has a amazing way of living. Our History is written in blood. It is scary and yes sikhism is scary place. we have our own way to find god my brother and yet we never initiated violence. 

people look at us like we are from jupiter . you are not different . But i am sorry you are failed to see the other corner of sikhism . The relationship with God himself. You are failed to see why God has made like this and why we do this.

I dont blame you and not any other. but just wanna give you my good wishes for you journey of bhai` fath or wahtver(in future if you become bhudist etc.). My dear friend stop moving around and find God in yourself. Why you care for religion?

i will finally recommend you book of Bhai randhir singh(Bhai Randhir Singh - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.). I dont have the url for book but you can read his history. dont worry it has nothing to do with 1984 stuff.

Its just to tell you what Ideal Sikhi is.

after you find god, you`ll no longer a muslim, sikh, christian or whatever. u`ll be one with God.

thanks
stupidjassi


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 11, 2008)

Lionchild said:


> it sure does, especially from a convert




i see.   so being a convert means i have less right to an opinion?



aad0002 said:


> Lionchild ji,
> 
> Good to hear your voice! I don't understand your answer.
> 
> ...




does it trouble you that our Gurus fought and killed mughals?  does it trouble you that sikhs carry a weapon as one of the five articles of faith?  does it trouble you that in addition to being saints, we're also expected to be warriors?  

we are not a pacifistic religion.  we do not shy away from bloodshed if it secures the safety of the innocent.  

we're supposed to fight against injustice.  and who was that tyrant indira if not injustice personified?


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## spnadmin (Jan 11, 2008)

Jasleen ji

We are supposed to fight against injustice. 

I am asking, Who has the right to take a life? How do we decide that? Who decides? What kind of questions must be asked before a decision is taken? 

The question is not asked in relation to this thread only. Gobind ji asked these same questions.


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 11, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Jasleen ji
> 
> We are supposed to fight against injustice.
> 
> ...




we have not only the right, but the responsibility to fight injustice, when other means fail, it is righteous to draw the sword.   we must follow God's will...  how do we know what that is?  i suppose that depends on the individual. 

ਜਾ  ਤੁਧੁ  ਭਾਵਹਿ  ਤਾ  ਕਰਹਿ  ਬਿਭੂਤਾ  ਸਿੰਙੀ  ਨਾਦੁ  ਵਜਾਵਹਿ  ॥
Jā ṯuḏẖ bẖāveh ṯā karahi bibẖūṯā sińī nāḏ vajāvah.
When it pleases You, we smear our bodies with ashes, and blow the horn and the conch shell.

ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਮੁਲਾ ਸੇਖ ਕਹਾਵਹਿ ॥
Jā ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai ṯā paṛeh kaṯėbā mulā sėkẖ kahāveh.
When it pleases You, we read the Islamic Scriptures, and are acclaimed as Mullahs and Shaykhs.

ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਸ ਕਸ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ॥
Jā ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai ṯā hoveh rājė ras kas bahuṯ kamāveh.
When it pleases You, we become kings, and enjoy all sorts of tastes and pleasures.

ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੇਗ ਵਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਿਰ ਮੁੰਡੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਵਹਿ ॥
Jā ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai ṯėg vagāveh sir mundī kat jāveh.
When it pleases You, we wield the sword, and cut off the heads of our enemies.

ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਜਾਹਿ ਦਿਸੰਤਰਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਗਲਾ ਘਰਿ ਆਵਹਿ ॥
Jā ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai jāhi disanṯar suṇ galā gẖar āvahi.
When it pleases You, we go out to foreign lands; hearing news of home, we come back again.

ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਨਾਇ ਰਚਾਵਹਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਣੇ ਤੂੰ ਭਾਵਹਿ ॥
Jā ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai nā*ė racẖāveh ṯuḏẖ bẖāṇė ṯūŉ bẖāveh.
When it pleases You, we are attuned to the Name, and when it pleases You, we become pleasing to You.

ਨਾਨਕੁ ਏਕ ਕਹੈ ਬੇਨੰਤੀ ਹੋਰਿ ਸਗਲੇ ਕੂੜੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ॥੧॥
Nānak ėk kahai bėnanṯī hor saglė kūṛ kamāveh. ||1||
Nanak utters this one prayer; everything else is just the practice of falsehood. ||1|| 

SGGS p. 145 M1


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## spnadmin (Jan 11, 2008)

Jasleen ji

When I as an individual make this kind of decision, am I taking the law into my own hands? 

If I decide to take even one life for a just cause, how am I different from a jihadi who flies a jet into a skyscraper for a "just cause?"

Do not be angry with me. You can tell from all that I have said that I despised the Ghandis. All of them.  Operation Bluestar was sinful. The question raised in the thread is serious because real ethical dilemmas are built into the topic.

I am logging off now, but will check in later.


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## International Akaali (Jan 11, 2008)

interesting topic, and great replys all around. 

I can see what aad is saying how is taking an individual life justified?

However if we look at history look at the many singhs out there in the jungles that took many lives because of the injustice against them and attained shaheedi.

Baba Deep Singh fought a feirce battle at the end and i am sure had ended more than a few lives along the way but for what? He did it for a reason. And this reason was for freedom and rights. 

The same could be said for bhai satwant singh, beant singh and kehar singh. They did this for freedom. 

Laws are man made. The only laws we follow are the ones which go in line with shri guru granth sahib ji and no other law can bring this down. 

I look forward to the replies


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 11, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Jasleen ji
> 
> When I as an individual make this kind of decision, am I taking the law into my own hands?
> 
> ...



from the 52 Hukamnama of Guru Gobind Singh ji:


    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Sutantar Vicharna. Raaj Kaaj dian kamaan tae doosrae mutaa dia purshaan noo huk nahi daenaa - 
[/FONT]     [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Rule Independently. In the affairs of government, do not give people of other religions authority/power.[/FONT]

the difference between flying a plane into a building and killing indira is that the jihadi is killing innocents.  indira was not an innocent, she was a mass murderer.  sikhs don't kill innocent people.  to kill a murderer to prevent them from murdering again is standard procedure in many cultures and countries.    as sikhs we must uphold justice, even if that means breaking unjust laws to do so.


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## spnadmin (Jan 12, 2008)

Gaurhee Guru Teg Bahadur 

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੯ ॥
gourree mehalaa 9 ||
Gauree, Ninth Mehl:

ਸਾਧੋ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਗਹਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
saadhho eihu man gehiou n jaaee ||
Holy Saadhus: this mind cannot be restrained.


ਚੰਚਲ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਬਸਤੁ ਹੈ ਯਾ ਤੇ ਥਿਰੁ ਨ ਰਹਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
chanchal thrisanaa sang basath hai yaa thae thhir n rehaaee ||1|| rehaao ||
Fickle desires dwell with it, and so it cannot remain 

ਕਠਨ ਕਰੋਧ ਘਟ ਹੀ ਕੇ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਜਿਹ ਸੁਧਿ ਸਭ ਬਿਸਰਾਈ ॥
kathan karodhh ghatt hee kae bheethar jih sudhh sabh bisaraaee ||
The heart is filled with anger and violence, which cause all sense to be forgotten.

ਰਤਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਹਿਰਿ ਲੀਨਾ ਤਾ ਸਿਉ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਬਸਾਈ ॥੧॥
rathan giaan sabh ko hir leenaa thaa sio kashh n basaaee ||1||
The jewel of spiritual wisdom has been taken away from everyone; nothing can withstand it. ||1||

ਜੋਗੀ ਜਤਨ ਕਰਤ ਸਭਿ ਹਾਰੇ ਗੁਨੀ ਰਹੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਈ ॥
jogee jathan karath sabh haarae gunee rehae gun gaaee ||
The Yogis have tried everything and failed; the virtuous have grown weary of singing God's Glories.

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਭਏ ਦਇਆਲਾ ਤਉ ਸਭ ਬਿਧਿ ਬਨਿ ਆਈ ॥੨॥੪॥
jan naanak har bheae dhaeiaalaa tho sabh bidhh ban aaee ||2||4||
O servant Nanak, when the Lord becomes merciful, then every effort is successful. ||2||4||

What rules does an individual use to judge the innocence of another individual?


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## Sikh80 (Jan 12, 2008)

Till one lives in a place and is a citizen Of a country his loyalities are to be with the county. In someone's opinion the acts are simply the act of treason and nothing more.

It is easy to discuss the issue on net and justify your idiocyncracies. However, till we are in Indai we are to be governed by Indian system. If one goes on killing people beause their grievances are not properly taken care Of by the Indian Government I think we are acting Jihadi's. Many people may not agree with all that you have stated. 
Sikhs are not a happy lot on account of the double edged and delayed politics played by the Sikh autorities.

It was a sad incident ;But what was the repurcussion. Can a community fight a State,. Never. Sikhs suffered in 1984 riots.

Sikhs could not carve out a state for them so they fret and fume and sit in canada and start some outfit and make their sikh brothers in India suffer the consequences that may not look on the surface as the repurcussion to the acts Of outfit in Canada. What is SGPC doing and for that matter what are rich sikhs sitting in US., UK and canada doing for their brothers and sisters. in India.Is it Sikhi?????


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## Archived_Member1 (Jan 12, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> What rules does an individual use to judge the innocence of another individual?



that's a very good question.  usually when we watch someone murder our brothers and sisters in cold blood, we call them guilty.  i suppose others may not see it that way.

freedom fighters are always called terrorists by their enemies.  is it better to sit silently and watch our families die?   i do not believe it is.  i will leave that to the pacifists...  the buddhists, the mennonites, the jains , the conscientious objectors...  
(and , sinister, before you twist my words, i am NOT saying anything bad about those religions.  there's nothing bad about being a pacifist!)

my poor interpretation of Guru sahib's hukam is that we should not allow tyrants to murder innocents, but should rather protect those in need.  

Even Guru Gobind Singh ji only let three arrows fly at him before he acted.  thousands of innocent pilgrims killed, plus thousands of other innocents unlawfully jailed, tortured, and murdered by a tyrannical government...  that's far more than three arrows in my opinion.

some people find violence so horrid they will never agree with my statements.  that's fine.  i find violence a distasteful yet sometimes necessary part of maintaining freedom.


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