# Sikhs In Temples



## Saint Soldier (Nov 27, 2008)

Sat shri akal,:}{}{}:

i hav a question in my mind:yes: what is a sikh expected to do when visiting temples ?:inca: all those going to temple bow before idols and as a sikh i dont feel like doing that. the only option left is not to visit a temple. but when someone invites me to his/her home for a function or something like that and i hav to bow before idols i feel as if im gone die at that very moment:8-. i hav escaped such moment many a times in my life but now im looking for a solution. hope il get one here

gurfateh


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 27, 2008)

Well, you have to respect other people's religious values. SGGS does not say you cannot bow down to an idol. God is everywhere, even in that idol. So don't worry, just bow down. :yes:

Why shoudn't Sikhs visit temples? From the pictures they look very beautiful and are desgined very well. 

Why this anti Hinduism (on a small level in your case)? SGGS does not express it so where are you getting this from?


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 27, 2008)

Bhagat singh ji,:whisling:
i think that a sikh should only bow to guru ji and not before some idols:inca: .we r simply replacing guru ji by that idol when we bow before it.:inca:
Thoughts come to mind throught mind itself-Guru Nanak:yes:
and this thought came to my mind. I understand that all this is done to show respect but in doing so we simply forget that we r actually worshiping those idols.
I never used the word "hindu".


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 27, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Bhagat singh ji,:whisling:
> i think that a sikh should only bow to guru ji and not before some idols:inca: .we r simply replacing guru ji by that idol when we bow before it.:inca:
> Thoughts come to mind throught mind itself-Guru Nanak:yes:
> and this thought came to my mind. I understand that all this is done to show respect but in doing so we simply forget that we r actually worshiping those idols.
> I never used the word "hindu".


haha ok so u didnt use hindu. 

But you are not replacing the Guru when you show respect to the idols. You follow SGGS but respect everyone else including idols.

Define worshipping for me please.


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 27, 2008)

Bhagat ji, 
for ur information im a weak debater.
and u hav a slow understanding 
anyways thanks for ur suggestions and stop calling ur self a sikh u sound as if a hindu missionary.


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## spnadmin (Nov 27, 2008)

Bhagat ji and Saint Solider ji,

It seems that you are both implying the same thing. But you are both using an indirect way of saying it -- you are using irony. Saying the opposite of what you each actually intend to say. Appearance only of debate. Read again and tell me whether you agree or disagree.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 27, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Bhagat ji,
> for ur information im a weak debater.



No prob.




> and u hav a slow understanding


Haha you might be right. But today for sure lol Ive been up all night trying to get my assignment done... I was bored...





> anyways thanks for ur suggestions and stop calling ur self a sikh u sound as if a hindu missionary.


Just  cuz i respect other people's faith, I am a hindu missionary? 
You are a weak debater or maybe i am not understanding you or both.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 27, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji and Saint Solider ji,
> 
> It seems that you are both implying the same thing. But you are both using an indirect way of saying it -- you are using irony. Saying the opposite of what you each actually intend to say. Appearance only of debate. Read again and tell me whether you agree or disagree.


Aad ji oh great one!!  just explain it to us!!


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## spnadmin (Nov 27, 2008)

Are you not both saying that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the only one deserving of devotion?  And that people sink to worshiping idols out of ignorance? If I am wrong that is fine. But I am picking up irony ( a form of sarcasm)  in both of you -- denying in words what you really mean in thoughts.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 28, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Are you not both saying that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the only one deserving of devotion?  And that people sink to worshiping idols out of ignorance? If I am wrong that is fine. But I am picking up irony ( a form of sarcasm)  in both of you -- denying in words what you really mean in thoughts.


Yes and Yes but he is saying that he cant bow down to idols because he feels bad while doing so. He feels bad because he thinkins bowing down means worshipping.
I am saying bowing down is a sign of respect.


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## spnadmin (Nov 28, 2008)

Bhagat ji

Thank you for clarifying for me because I did not get that point.


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## Randip Singh (Nov 28, 2008)

Come on guys.

I have been to a Mosque on two occasions, does not mean I have become a Muslim!!


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 28, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Yes and Yes but he is saying that he cant bow down to idols because he feels bad while doing so. He feels bad because he thinkins bowing down means worshipping.
> I am saying bowing down is a sign of respect.


 
Show me where in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji or in any hukam by the Guru or in Dasam Granth a Sikh can bow down to an idol?


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 28, 2008)

Singh said:


> Show me where in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji or in any hukam by the Guru or in Dasam Granth a Sikh can bow down to an idol?


Show me in SGGS where is says Sikhs cannot bow down to an idol.:yes:

You always want to argue, don't you?


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 28, 2008)

randip singh said:


> Come on guys.
> 
> I have been to a Mosque on two occasions, does not mean I have become a Muslim!!


According to some people...
Show me where in SGGS and (so called) DG it says you don't become a Muslim when you go to a Mosque on two occasions? :advocate:


hehe, c'mon people use common sense. Guru Nanak Dev ji could do it so can you!! :happy:


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 28, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Show me in SGGS where is says Sikhs cannot bow down to an idol.:yes:
> 
> You always want to argue, don't you?


 
I want to argue! that's the last thing i want to do.

I am simply asking you where in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it says you can do it because you said one can out of respect, which means surely you read it in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. So point me, to this shabad or tuk?

If my question sound like, I want to start an arguement then I am sorry and that is not my intention at all.

So please show me this tuk or shabad


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## pk70 (Nov 28, 2008)

*Guru Nanak in context of idol respect*

* Mėhlā 1. 
**First Mehl: 

**ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਲੇ ਭੂਲੇ ਅਖੁਟੀ ਜਾਂਹੀ **॥ 
** Hinḏū mūle bẖūle akẖutī jāŉhī. 
**The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way. 

**ਨਾਰਦਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਿ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਂਹੀ **॥ 
** Nāraḏ kahi▫ā sė pūj karāŉhī. 
**As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. 

**ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁੰਗੇ ਅੰਧ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ **॥ 
** Anḏẖe gunge anḏẖ anḏẖār. 
**They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind. 

**ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ **॥ 
/** Pāthar le pūjėh mugaḏẖ gavār. 
**The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them. 

**ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰੁ **॥**੨**॥  (SGGS Ji 556)
** Ohi jā āp dube ṯum kahā ṯaraṇhār. ||2|| 
**But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2||*


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 28, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *Guru Nanak in context of idol respect*
> 
> *Mėhlā 1. *
> *First Mehl: *
> ...


 
Thank you Pk70 ji

As I understand this shabad it is saying people should not worship idols at all.  If we do then we are spiritually blind and will not be liberated.  So we shouldnt bow down to an idol at all.

Please correct me if I am wrong


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## pk70 (Nov 29, 2008)

Singh said:


> Thank you Pk70 ji
> 
> As I understand this shabad it is saying people should not worship idols at all.  If we do then we are spiritually blind and will not be liberated.  So we shouldnt bow down to an idol at all.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong




*Absolutely you are right  Singh ji*
*We should show deep respect to other people’s choices of faith but it doesn’t mean we should do what they do. How we can show respect to the idol we do not believe in? If we try, we will be displaying a show of hypocrisy. *


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

That shabad did not say to not bow down to an idol. It said worshipping idols is ignorance.
So I stand by my point of bowing down to respect, which is actually what bowing down means!!

I am still waiting...

OH forgot to answer this:


Singh said:


> As I understand this shabad it is saying people should not worship idols at all. If we do then we are spiritually blind and will not be liberated.


I have no idea, how you came to the conclusion below with what you have above...



> So we shouldnt bow down to an idol at all.


 Do you bow down to SGGS because you are worshipping it? I assuming, of course, that you bow down to it and don't simply sit in the sangat after taking off your shoes etc.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 29, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> That shabad did not say to not bow down to an idol. It said worshipping idols is ignorance.
> So I stand by my point of bowing down to respect, which is actually what bowing down means!!
> 
> I am still waiting...
> ...


 
Bhagat Singh ji, what does bowing down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji have to do with idol worship?


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

Do you bow down to SGGS because you are worshipping it?
simple question but I need you to answer before I say something.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 29, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Do you bow down to SGGS because you are worshipping it?
> simple question but I need you to answer before I say something.


 
yes i do bow down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

Singh said:


> yes i do bow down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


Do you bow down to SGGS because you are worshipping it?
You ignored half of it...


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 29, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Do you bow down to SGGS because you are worshipping it?
> You ignored half of it...


 Yes i do bow down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as in worshipping the Gubani


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

Singh said:


> Yes i do bow down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as in worshipping the Gubani


Well why do worship gurbani? Is that what Guru Nanak taught? He said worship only the almighty.
BUT let's take worshipping gurbani as your belief. You still bowing down to a book and worshipping it. There is not a whole lot of difference between worshipping a book and worshipping an idol.

Just as you see gurbani in that book, others see god in the idol. :yes:

Now, I bow down to SGGS to respect it. When i enter the hall, I bow down to say Guru ji I am here to learn and do seva. Same as if I would if entered a temple, although I haven't been to one.

I remember when I did not bow down to anything in the Golden temple except SGGS several months ago because I thought bowing down to trees, small architecture, stones, marble etc would be "idol worship". mom got mad, etc and I understand her now. :}{}{}:

Again nowhere in SGGS does it say you cannot bow down to an idol. I rest my case. Gona enjoy the rest of my night in Dreamland.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 29, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Well why do worship gurbani? Is that what Guru Nanak taught? He said worship only the almighty.
> BUT let's take worshipping gurbani as your belief. You still bowing down to a book and worshipping it. There is not a whole lot of difference between worshipping a book and worshipping an idol.
> 
> Just as you see gurbani in that book, others see god in the idol. :yes:
> ...


 
I would say something, but only after i post this video.

YouTube - Idol worship - SIKH RELIGION


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## Randip Singh (Nov 29, 2008)

Singh said:


> Yes i do bow down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as in worshipping the Gubani



Please clarify this point, I am a bit confused?

Here is my take on this.

I have been taught that you only worship the almighty, and the reason why we bow to the 11th master is as a sign of respect and not worship. We do not worship the word but worship the creator of the word. The creator of the word does not live in any direction. According to Bani God is within us and our goal is to realise God i.e. become Gurmukh.

I don't think there is any harm in showing respect for other religions.Again I have been in Mandhir's but I do not bow down to anything. Infact there are many Hindu's I know that refuse to bow down to statues of God's/demi-Gods. It is about personal choice at the end of the day.

They key here is not to be disrespectful to other religions.


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 29, 2008)

Sat shri akal

thank you brothers and sisters  for ur replies. :yes:

As bhagat singh ji is saying that bowing to idols is out of respect why then Guru nanak and Bhagat kabir criticized muslims for bowing to mecca even this can be clarified by saying that this is to show respect.(bhagat singh ji:u)

And to further add a catalyst to this discussion  :ice:what should sikhs do when going to a "dargah"(sufi-tombs) or to a church???? ( i stoped going to churches as i feel despised when im not given prasad)


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## spnadmin (Nov 29, 2008)

Saint Solider ji

Randip ji clarifies that there are even Hindus who will not bow to idols. Guru Nanak criticized but that is not the same thing as condemning the  practices of other religions. The way I read His Bani he is trying to educate people then and now as to how to elevate their understanding. He never condems but teaches.

Your comment about being turned away from prasad in "churches" was very interesting to me. Do you mean the "communion" or "host" in Christian churches. This is interesting because if that is it, you should know that Christians in some faiths also turn Christians from churches other than their own away from receiving the communion or host also. E.G., Roman Catholics will not give the communion host to Lutherans. It may not be that you are despised as a Sikh but instead because some Christian churches are very much like islands unto themsleves.


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 29, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
addooo2 ji,
yes there r hindus who dont worship idols:yes: examples-arya samajis and kabir panthis but i dont know if they bow to idols or not and i cannot accompany them even if they do :inca:.
you hav not commented  on my example of mecca?
when i visited  chruch i wasnt a kesadhari sikh at that time. but as i was going for the prasad my friend  who was a christian asked me to sit as i was not a christian. i felt very bad at that time.:inca:


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> As bhagat singh ji is saying that bowing to idols is out of respect why then Guru nanak and Bhagat kabir criticized muslims for bowing to mecca even this can be clarified by saying that this is to show respect.(bhagat singh ji:u)


I would like to see quotes from SGGS where this has been done.
So far one shabd was posted which was about worshipping and not bowing down.

As Sikh we bow down to respect, if anyone else makes anything else out of it then what can we do?


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

Singh said:


> I would say something, but only after i post this video.


Don't bother with saying anything.


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 29, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
bhagat singh ji,
you r either considering SGGS as ur spiritual syllabus for clearing the sikh standard or as a Primer :inca: why dont u just stop quoting SGGS.some thoughts of our Guru are to be learned through his deeds and doings rather than his poetic work .  can u learn each and every line of SGGS .and let me here quate bhagat kabir ji 
pothi pad pad jag mua pandit bana na koi dhai aksahr prem ke pade so pandit hoye.
come out of this bookish knowledge..........:inca:


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> bhagat singh ji,


Satsriakal,
Saint Soldier ji



> you r either considering SGGS as ur spiritual syllabus for clearing the sikh standard or as a Primer :inca:


 
I don't know what u mean by any of that.




> why dont u just stop quoting SGGS.



I haven't started mate. 




> some thoughts of our Guru are to be learned through his deeds and doings rather than his poetic work .


EDIT: I agree actually, I have been trying to tell everyone that. 



> can u learn each and every line of SGGS .


Perhaps. 




> and let me here quate bhagat kabir ji


alright



> pothi pad pad jag mua pandit bana na koi dhai aksahr prem ke pade so pandit hoye.
> come out of this bookish knowledge..........:inca:


lol what is the point of all that  and the rest of your post? You are not very good at making your point clear.


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 29, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
God only knows if my points r weak or ur understanding.:inca: but it is the truth that both Guru nanak and bhagat kabir were against muslims bowing to mecca. :yes:after all both r symbols idols or buildings.and tell me if Baba nanak ever did that for himself. he never respected idols why do u think we as his sikhs should respect them . all right plz tell me if im wrong is my point clear now? come on if not im gone renounce all this


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> God only knows if my points r weak or ur understanding.:inca:


 
In this case, your points. Let's see why...




> but it is the truth that both Guru nanak and bhagat kabir were against muslims bowing to mecca. :yes:


You haven't provided anything to back that up. You are not going to win me over using the validity effect.




> after all both r symbols idols or buildings.


what do you say to this  "I remember when I did not bow down to anything in the Golden temple except SGGS several months ago because I thought bowing down to trees, small architecture, stones, marble etc would be "idol worship". mom got mad, etc and I understand her now. :}{}{}:"




> and tell me if Baba nanak ever did that for himself. he never respected idols


How do you know? nothing to back that up again...



> why do u think we as his sikhs should respect them .



Because we respect everything.



> all right plz tell me if im wrong is my point clear now?



If all that is supposed to tell me something then no. If they are mere statements they make your thoughts clear then yes.




> come on if not im gone renounce all this


renounce all of what? thinking that bowing down to something is worshipping? then yes renounce that becaus bowing down is a sign of respect. Here's a nother example of bowing down to respect. 
When I got to India, I bow down to every elder and I touch their feet. I do that because in Indian culture that is how you show respect to something greater than you (doesn't matter if they are). You don't worship by bowing down to your elders. 

Waheguru, this is the last thing I want to be teaching to what seem like educated Sikhs. Please forgive me


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 29, 2008)

Sat shri akal,


> Waheguru, this is the last thing I want to be teaching to what seem like educated Sikhs. Please forgive me


:rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!: 


> When I got to India, I bow down to every elder and I touch their feet. I do that because in Indian culture that is how you show respect to something greater than you (doesn't matter if they are). You don't worship by bowing down to your elders.


hmm ic how can u compare idols with elders idols r not alive .:yes:




> You haven't provided anything to back that up. You are not going to win me over using the validity effect.


 
alright so this is for u--THE HINDUS HAVING STRAYED FROM PRIMAL LORD, ARE GOING THE WRONG WAY. THEY WORSHIP IDOLS,AS INSTRUCTED BY NARAD .... THEY, THE IGNORANT ONES,WORSHIP STONE-GODS ,NOT REALISING THAT STONES WHICH THEMSELVES SINK ,CANNOT FERRY OTHERS ACROSS.--GURU NANAK ,BIHAGRA,556
--sainty


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> hmm ic how can u compare idols with elders idols r not alive .:yes:


 In a sense that we bow down to both to respect them. If you have not understood that then do not proceed further.




> alright so this is for u--THE HINDUS HAVING STRAYED FROM PRIMAL LORD, ARE GOING THE WRONG WAY. THEY WORSHIP IDOLS,AS INSTRUCTED BY NARAD .... THEY, THE IGNORANT ONES,WORSHIP STONE-GODS ,NOT REALISING THAT STONES WHICH THEMSELVES SINK ,CANNOT FERRY OTHERS ACROSS.--GURU NANAK ,BIHAGRA,556
> --sainty


That has already been posted and it talks about worshipping, not bowing down.

I am glad I got a smile on someone's face.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 29, 2008)

randip singh said:


> Please clarify this point, I am a bit confused?
> 
> Here is my take on this.
> 
> ...


 
Randip Singh ji, to understand the shabad that Pk70 presented to us, in this thread, is to understand what Hindus do to worship the idol. What does there worship consist of and here it is:

*How is puja celebrated? *Wherever puja is performed it includes three important components: the seeing of the deity; puja, or worship, which includes offering flowers, fruits, and foods; and retrieving the blessed food and consuming it. By performing these sacred acts the worshiper creates a relationship with the divine through his or her emotions and senses. ​ 
During a household puja, the head of the household chants prayers to the god or goddess. The worshipers offer the deity a seat, wash its feet, and give it water. An image may be symbolically bathed, clothed in new garments, and embellished with ornaments. Perfumes and ointments may be applied, and flowers and garlands may be placed before it. Incense is burned, and a lighted lamp is waved in front of the deity. Foods such as cooked rice, fruit, butter, and sugar are offered. Family members bow before the image, sip the water they have given the god, and receive a portion of cooked food. The food and water are now considered to have been blessed by the deity for the devotees.​ 
Hindus worship to the idol consist of bowing down to the idol. To this worship this is what Guru Nanak Dev ji said.​ 
*Mėhlā 1. *
*First Mehl: *​

*ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਲੇ ਭੂਲੇ ਅਖੁਟੀ ਜਾਂਹੀ ॥ *
*Hinḏū mūle bẖūle akẖutī jāŉhī. *
*The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way. *​ 
*ਨਾਰਦਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਿ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਂਹੀ ॥ *
*Nāraḏ kahi▫ā sė pūj karāŉhī. *
*As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. *​ 
*ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁੰਗੇ ਅੰਧ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥ *
*Anḏẖe gunge anḏẖ anḏẖār. *
*They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind. *​ 
*ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ ॥ *
*/ Pāthar le pūjėh mugaḏẖ gavār. *
*The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them. *​ 
*ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ (SGGS Ji 556)*
*Ohi jā āp dube ṯum kahā ṯaraṇhār. ||2|| *
*But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2||*​ 
This shabad presnted by PK70 in this thread speaks on this worship and Guru Nanak Dev ji call the person who performs this worship blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.​ 
Like the Singh said in the video don't for a second think its worshiping of an idol when we bow down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, which some will mislead you to believe. Gurbani is the word of God. Also to even strenght this even more in Gurbani a Sikh is said to give his head to the Guru​ 
If you desire to play this game of love with Me, then step onto My Path with your head in hand. When you place your feet on this Path, give Me your head, and do not pay any attention to public opinion. || 20 || ang 1412​ 
The perfect example of a Gurmukh that did this Baba Deep Singh ji, the great saint that I would love to be the dust at his feet.​ 
Whose path is Guru ji talking about here the one Lords Path, which Guru ji disclosed to us with the Lords words; Gurbani. what did the Gurus speak? The One Sumpreme Lord Gods words.​


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 29, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
all right even if i agree that we bow to show our respect to idols doesnt this post makes clear that guru nanak never respected idols .so is there any need to bow for we as sikhs of Guru nanak dont respect idols following our Guru
agree?



> alright so this is for u--THE HINDUS HAVING STRAYED FROM PRIMAL LORD, ARE GOING THE WRONG WAY. THEY WORSHIP IDOLS,AS INSTRUCTED BY NARAD .... THEY, THE IGNORANT ONES,WORSHIP STONE-GODS ,NOT REALISING THAT STONES WHICH THEMSELVES SINK ,CANNOT FERRY OTHERS ACROSS.--Guru Nanak ,BIHAGRA556,


--sainty 
this doesnt shows that Guru ji never respected idols?????? is there any need to bow when we dont respect them???????? the final thing at last is bowing. 
come on now be a good sikh and accept things the way they r:yes:


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> all right even if i agree that we bow to show our respect to idols doesnt this post makes clear that guru nanak never respected idols .so is there any need to bow for we as sikhs of Guru nanak dont respect idols following our Guru
> agree?
> 
> ...


You have completely misunderstood the shabad! Guru Nanak is saying that worshipping idols is ignorance. He never disrespected them! 

You have no proof of whether Guru Nanak respected idols or not and neither do I. But SGGS our present Guru, whom we should follow, does not say " dont bow down to idol". Therefore, like Randip SIngh ji said, it s more of a personal thing.

If being a Sikh means believing nonsensical ********, then from today I am NOT a Sikh!:}--}:
OH and BTW Sikhs DO NOT accept the way things are. NONE OF THE GURUS DID!


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 29, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,
> :rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!::rofl!!:
> 
> hmm ic how can u compare idols with elders idols r not alive .:yes:
> ...


 
Thank you Saint Soldier this strengths that bowing down to an idol for a Sikh is a wrongful act.  If the stone sinks the worshipper sinks then the person that bows in respect sinks.

Sikhs only bow down there head to the Lord.  To further understand what I mean by the Lord then read post number 40


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## Saint Soldier (Nov 29, 2008)

Sat sri akal,
im in the line of fire bhagat ji?
let it be the way it is bhagat ji and lets hope there will be someother posts to support both ur and my ideas .:yes:


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## pk70 (Nov 29, 2008)

*Bhagat Singh Ji*
*Let me first tell that you are entitled to your opinion and do what you feel is right. I hope my following commentary will not hit your ego, if it did, I would ask for your forgiveness.*

*You think bowing to idols is showing respect, it is not worship, am I right?*
*Alright, if you want to show respect to the idols that is fine, you have the right to do that but from where you have learnt it as a Sikh?  Is it just based on your own assumptions or you are guided by SGGS Ji? As you ask follow members to back up their claim of not to bow before any one but Guru and the Lord, please back up your claim.*
*As per Guru Ji, only those people worship idols who are extremely ignorant as per quote by First Nanak, please explain me why would you bow to a thing you do not believe in a bit and you know it is an act of ignorance? When Guru ji says” that pond is dirty because there is dirt in it”, Will you still go into dirty pond by saying that Guru ji didn’t say “do not get into the pond?” Is it to please others? Or is it to show respect to the Idol or the worshiper of the Idol?*
*Both ways, you show that either you have no inkling what Guru says about Idols (not only about worshiping them as you have been repeatedly saying) or it is very easy thing for you to show hypocrisy (bowing to a thing you do not believe in). You, in your mind, know it is a stone, and then your bowing occurs, what kind of sincerity you display?*
*You are comparing bowing to elders and saying it is just the same. You are dead wrong. Idols are stones, elders are human beings and you show them that you respect them and they accept or compliment your nice behavior, what the stone does in this context?*
* If you bow to a stone-worshiper in respect, it makes sense though.*
*Bowing to structures, buildings and Idols is the same, I agree with you.*
*Bowing to Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not like bowing to elders or Idols. Why?  Because we show respect to the knowledge of the Guru we get from SGGS Ji, if that knowledge is not taken and practiced, that bowing becomes an act of hypocrisy as well because relationship of Guru and followers is not limited to bowing but to have knowledge to progress spiritually; in fact, without showing respect, learning doesn’t take place.*

*Did ever Guru Nanak bow to Idols? Here is the proof that he didn’t (as he didn’t believe in the practice of hypocrisy. Guru Nanak took a stand with rationality and he did nothing for the sake of pleasing others as for him it is the Lord who is important not the people)*
*ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮਹਲੁ ਹਜੂਰਿ ਦੂਜੇ ਨਿਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ **॥ **ਦਰਿ ਦਰਵਾਣੀ ਨਾਹਿ ਮੂਲੇ ਪੁਛ ਤਿਸੁ **॥ **ਛੁਟੈ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਬੋਲਿ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨਦਰਿ ਜਿਸੁ **॥**੩**॥ *
*Jā ka▫o mahal hajūr ḏūje nivai kis. **Ḏar ḏarvāṇī nāhi mūle pucẖẖ ṯis. **Cẖẖutai ṯā kai bol sāhib naḏar jis. ||3|| *
*He, who lives close to his Lord's mansion; why should he bow to another? **The porter at the Lord's gate, asks him absolutely no question. **One is redeemed at the bidding of him on whom is the Lord's grace. *
*In essence: The one whose mind is set on the Lord and sees Him present, why he should bow to another. At Lord’s court he is not questioned (about this not bowing) at all because with Guru’s bachan he is redeemed as per grace of the Lord*
*Last but not least, you are a Sikh, we are no one to judge you otherwise.*


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## Astroboy (Nov 29, 2008)

Here's my take to this:

A bee will never choose to sit on a artificial flower unless it wants to bow down to it and pay its respects. A human being will never worship an idol unless, in his ignorance, he wants to pay respect to the stone. 

ਆਸਾ  ਸ੍ਰੀ  ਕਬੀਰ  ਜੀਉ  ਕੇ  ਪੰਚਪਦੇ  ੯  ਦੁਤੁਕੇ  ੫ 
आसा स्री कबीर जीउ के पंचपदे ९ दुतुके ५ 
Āsā sarī Kabīr jī▫o ke pancẖpaḏe 9 ḏuṯuke 5 
Aasaa, Kabeer Jee, 9 Panch-Padas, 5 Du-Tukas: 

ੴ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥ 
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥ 
Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ. 
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: 

ਪਾਤੀ  ਤੋਰੈ  ਮਾਲਿਨੀ  ਪਾਤੀ  ਪਾਤੀ  ਜੀਉ  ॥ 
पाती तोरै मालिनी पाती पाती जीउ ॥ 
Pāṯī ṯorai mālini pāṯī pāṯī jī▫o. 
You tear off the leaves, O gardener, but in each and every leaf, there is life. 

ਜਿਸੁ  ਪਾਹਨ  ਕਉ  ਪਾਤੀ  ਤੋਰੈ  ਸੋ  ਪਾਹਨ  ਨਿਰਜੀਉ  ॥੧॥ 
जिसु पाहन कउ पाती तोरै सो पाहन निरजीउ ॥१॥ 
Jis pāhan ka▫o pāṯī ṯorai so pāhan nirjī▫o. ||1|| 
That stone idol, for which you tear off those leaves - that stone idol is lifeless. ||1|| 

ਭੂਲੀ  ਮਾਲਨੀ  ਹੈ  ਏਉ  ॥ 
भूली मालनी है एउ ॥ 
Bẖūlī mālnī hai e▫o. 
In this, you are mistaken, O gardener. 

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਜਾਗਤਾ  ਹੈ  ਦੇਉ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥ 
सतिगुरु जागता है देउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Saṯgur jāgṯā hai ḏe▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
The True Guru is the Living Lord. ||1||Pause|| 

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ  ਪਾਤੀ  ਬਿਸਨੁ  ਡਾਰੀ  ਫੂਲ  ਸੰਕਰਦੇਉ  ॥ 
ब्रहमु पाती बिसनु डारी फूल संकरदेउ ॥ 
Barahm pāṯī bisan dārī fūl sankarḏe▫o. 
Brahma is in the leaves, Vishnu is in the branches, and Shiva is in the flowers. 

ਤੀਨਿ  ਦੇਵ  ਪ੍ਰਤਖਿ  ਤੋਰਹਿ  ਕਰਹਿ  ਕਿਸ  ਕੀ  ਸੇਉ  ॥੨॥ 
तीनि देव प्रतखि तोरहि करहि किस की सेउ ॥२॥ 
Ŧīn ḏev parṯakẖ ṯorėh karahi kis kī se▫o. ||2|| 
When you break these three gods, whose service are you performing? ||2|| 

ਪਾਖਾਨ  ਗਢਿ  ਕੈ  ਮੂਰਤਿ  ਕੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ  ਦੇ  ਕੈ  ਛਾਤੀ  ਪਾਉ  ॥ 
पाखान गढि कै मूरति कीन्ही दे कै छाती पाउ ॥ 
Pākẖān gadẖ kai mūraṯ kīnĥī ḏe kai cẖẖāṯī pā▫o. 
The sculptor carves the stone and fashions it into an idol, placing his feet upon its chest. 

ਜੇ  ਏਹ  ਮੂਰਤਿ  ਸਾਚੀ  ਹੈ  ਤਉ  ਗੜ੍ਹਣਹਾਰੇ  ਖਾਉ  ॥੩॥ 
जे एह मूरति साची है तउ गड़्हणहारे खाउ ॥३॥ 
Je eh mūraṯ sācẖī hai ṯa▫o gaṛĥaṇhāre kẖā▫o. ||3|| 
If this stone god was true, it would devour the sculptor for this! ||3|| 

ਭਾਤੁ  ਪਹਿਤਿ  ਅਰੁ  ਲਾਪਸੀ  ਕਰਕਰਾ  ਕਾਸਾਰੁ  ॥ 
भातु पहिति अरु लापसी करकरा कासारु ॥ 
Bẖāṯ pahiṯ ar lāpsī karkarā kāsār. 
Rice and beans, candies, cakes and cookies - 

ਭੋਗਨਹਾਰੇ  ਭੋਗਿਆ  ਇਸੁ  ਮੂਰਤਿ  ਕੇ  ਮੁਖ  ਛਾਰੁ  ॥੪॥ 
भोगनहारे भोगिआ इसु मूरति के मुख छारु ॥४॥ 
Bẖoganhāre bẖogi▫ā is mūraṯ ke mukẖ cẖẖār. ||4|| 
the priest enjoys these, while he puts ashes into the mouth of the idol. ||4|| 

ਮਾਲਿਨਿ  ਭੂਲੀ  ਜਗੁ  ਭੁਲਾਨਾ  ਹਮ  ਭੁਲਾਨੇ  ਨਾਹਿ  ॥ 
मालिनि भूली जगु भुलाना हम भुलाने नाहि ॥ 
Mālin bẖūlī jag bẖulānā ham bẖulāne nāhi. 
The gardener is mistaken, and the world is mistaken, but I am not mistaken. 

ਕਹੁ  ਕਬੀਰ  ਹਮ  ਰਾਮ  ਰਾਖੇ  ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ  ਕਰਿ  ਹਰਿ  ਰਾਇ  ॥੫॥੧॥੧੪॥ 
कहु कबीर हम राम राखे क्रिपा करि हरि राइ ॥५॥१॥१४॥ 
Kaho Kabīr ham rām rākẖe kirpā kar har rā▫e. ||5||1||14|| 
Says Kabeer, the Lord preserves me; the Lord, my King, has showered His Blessings upon me. ||5||1||14||


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 29, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *Bhagat Singh Ji*
> *Let me first tell that you are entitled to your opinion and do what you feel is right. I hope my following commentary will not hit your ego, if it did, I would ask for your forgiveness.*


  Pk70 ji, its not about my ego. My views change and they have changed before.



> *You think bowing to idols is showing respect, it is not worship, am I right?*


yes



> Alright, if you want to show respect to the idols that is fine, you have the right to do that but from where you have learnt it as a Sikh?


I would like your views on"I remember when I did not bow down to anything in the Golden temple except SGGS several months ago because I thought bowing down to trees, small architecture, stones, marble etc would be "idol worship". mom got mad, etc and I understand her now. :}{}{}:"


> Is it just based on your own assumptions or you are guided by SGGS Ji?


Its a personal belief, that is not against SGGS in anyway.


> *As you ask follow members to back up their claim of not to bow before any one but Guru and the Lord, please back up your claim.*


I have I will post them all here now. My reasoning, basically where I am coming from. ALl  you have to do is go back and read my posts and those of Randip Singh ji.
Recent:


> Here's a nother example of bowing down to respect.
> When I got to India, I bow down to every elder and I touch their feet. I do that because in Indian culture that is how you show respect to something greater than you (doesn't matter if they are). You don't worship by bowing down to your elders.


another argument:


> Do you bow down to SGGS because you are worshipping it?
> simple question but I need you to answer before I say something.





> Well why do worship gurbani? Is that what Guru Nanak taught? He said worship only the almighty.
> BUT let's take worshipping gurbani as your belief. You still bowing down to a book and worshipping it. There is not a whole lot of difference between worshipping a book and worshipping an idol.
> 
> Just as you see gurbani in that book, others see god in the idol. :yes:
> ...


By Randip Singh ji :


> Here is my take on this.
> 
> I have been taught that you only worship the almighty, and the reason why we bow to the 11th master is as a sign of respect and not worship. We do not worship the word but worship the creator of the word. The creator of the word does not live in any direction. According to Bani God is within us and our goal is to realise God i.e. become Gurmukh.
> 
> ...


-------





> *As per Guru Ji, only those people worship idols who are extremely ignorant as per quote by First Nanak, please explain me why would you bow to a thing you do not believe in a bit and you know it is an act of ignorance?*


Bowing down is for respect and not worship. In Indian culture NOT bowing down to something greater than you is ignorance. Guru ji did not say to not bow down.


> When Guru ji says” that pond is dirty because there is dirt in it”, Will you still go into dirty pond by saying that Guru ji didn’t say “do not get into the pond?”


 What do you mean? I guess if I had too and if there was nothing wrong with it being dirty.


> *Is it to please others? Or is it to show respect to the Idol or the worshiper of the Idol?*


??



> *Both ways, you show that either you have no inkling what Guru says about Idols (not only about worshiping them as you have been repeatedly saying) or it is very easy thing for you to show hypocrisy (bowing to a thing you do not believe in). You, in your mind, know it is a stone, and then your bowing occurs, what kind of sincerity you display?*


I bow to my elders even if I don't believe in the same things they do. If I ever meet you I will bow down to you! Bowing down is also a sign of humility. One of our Gurus bowed down and cleaned someone's feet with his beard. (forget exactly what happened there)



> You are comparing bowing to elders and saying it is just the same.


Yes it is. Both are sign of respect.



> *You are dead wrong. Idols are stones, elders are human beings and you show them that you respect them and they accept or compliment your nice behavior, what the stone does in this context?*


So you bow to get their compliments? I bow to show respect, same as anything else. Again go back to the Amritsar incident of mine.



> *If you bow to a stone-worshiper in respect, it makes sense though.*


So you cannot bow down to a neutral stone but you can bow down to a obviously ignorant worshipper?
Good job!


> *
> Bowing to structures, buildings and Idols is the same, I agree with you.
> Bowing to Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not like bowing to elders or Idols. Why?*


 Well, I think it is the same. All are done to show respect. Oh you didnt want my answer...


> Because we show respect to the knowledge of the Guru we get from SGGS Ji,


NOOO really? Are you sure by bowing down you are not worshipping?



> *if that knowledge is not taken and practiced, that bowing becomes an act of hypocrisy as well because relationship of Guru and followers is not limited to bowing but to have knowledge to progress spiritually; in fact, without showing respect, learning doesn’t take place.*


Yes bowing down is the first step like respect is the first step THEN learning takes place. But you can leave it at the respect stage. You respect but just don't want to learn, tere is nothing wrong with that. :yes:




> Did ever Guru Nanak bow to Idols?


We don't know that.



> Here is the proof that he didn’t (as he didn’t believe in the practice of hypocrisy.


That's no proof.





> * Guru Nanak took a stand with rationality and he did nothing for the sake of pleasing others as for him it is the Lord who is important not the people)*


This is true but no proof of your statement above.


> *ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮਹਲੁ ਹਜੂਰਿ ਦੂਜੇ ਨਿਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ **॥ **ਦਰਿ ਦਰਵਾਣੀ ਨਾਹਿ ਮੂਲੇ ਪੁਛ ਤਿਸੁ **॥ **ਛੁਟੈ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਬੋਲਿ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨਦਰਿ ਜਿਸੁ **॥**੩**॥ *
> *Jā ka▫o mahal hajūr ḏūje nivai kis. **Ḏar ḏarvāṇī nāhi mūle pucẖẖ ṯis. **Cẖẖutai ṯā kai bol sāhib naḏar jis. ||3|| *
> *He, who lives close to his Lord's mansion; why should he bow to another? **The porter at the Lord's gate, asks him absolutely no question. **One is redeemed at the bidding of him on whom is the Lord's grace. *
> *In essence: The one whose mind is set on the Lord and sees Him present, why he should bow to another. At Lord’s court he is not questioned (about this not bowing) at all because with Guru’s bachan he is redeemed as per grace of the Lord*
> *Last but not least, you are a Sikh, we are no one to judge you otherwise.*


Of course, I am a Sikh!!


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 29, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Its a personal belief, that is not against SGGS in anyway.


 
Bhagat Singh ji please tells us where it says in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, it is okay for a Sikh to bow down to an idol out of respect?


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## pk70 (Nov 29, 2008)

I would like your views on"[/FONT]I remember when I did not bow down to anything in the Golden temple except SGGS several months ago because I thought bowing down to trees, small architecture, stones, marble etc would be "idol worship". mom got mad, etc and I understand her now(quote Bhagat Singh Ji)


*Your Mom was misguiding you, you did the right thing; however, I wonder, how come you successfully differentiated between blind bowing and rational bowing while being with your Mom but in the context of bowing to Idols, it becomes respect for you but bowing to the other things your Mom said, doesn’t appear to be sign of respect. Amazing! Isn't it double standard? What Mom said was not sign of respect but what you do before a stone is a sign of respect.*
  I have I will post them all here now. My reasoning, basically where I am coming from. ALl you have to do is go back and read my posts and those of Randip Singh ji.

*I was just asking your rationality of questioning other members to back up their views when your own views are just coming from” where I am coming from..”
*Bowing down is for respect and not worship. In Indian culture NOT bowing down to something greater than you is ignorance. Guru ji did not say to not bow down.
*You are mixing things up, bowing to the Idols is not a cultural things, cultural things are done at by large, here that is not the case, you can keep arguing about this, it will never end but it has nothing to do with Gurbani teachings. It depends, as per your own words, from where you come. Cultural and religious acts are certainly different.*

  What do you mean? I guess if I had too and if there was nothing wrong with it being dirty
*I tried to give you a point with an example which you just missed it, let me try again. If Guru ji says” that pond is dirty, there is dirt in it”, now question rises“Why Guru ji  is telling us that pond is dirty?" It is a hint to stay away from the pond. Same way, why Guru ji saying that such people who have turned to stones are blind, ignorant. Message is clear that hisfollowers should not fall for those stones. If Stone worshiping is condemned, why Guru ji would ask his followers to respect” stones” Please give me a reason!*
* Guru ji took this bowing and worshiping of Idols very seriously, look at the words he used”*
*ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁੰਗੇ ਅੰਧ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ **॥**
**Anḏẖe gunge anḏẖ anḏẖār.**
**They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.*

*ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ **॥**
**/** Pāthar le pūjėh mugaḏẖ gavār.*
*The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.*

*After reading it, if still you think, bowing (paying respect) to stone is alright, so it be for you, but Gurbani doesn’t support it a bit. You can keep Saying” give the proof” when proof is already there. As I said, do whatever you want to do but at least do not base it on Sikh Scriptures. Bowing to the Idols (whom as Sikhs we think they are just stones) is hypocrisy.*

  I bow to my elders even if I don't believe in the same things they do. If I ever meet you I will bow down to you! BOwing down is also a sign of humility. One of our Gurus bowed down and cleaned someone's feet with his beard. (forget exactly what happened there)
*Again, bowing to elders, bowing to stones cannot be the same. Why we bow to elders? To show respect, but why? Just because they are elders as per own your words.  Why to show respect to a stone then? It is not elder? It has no feelings; it doesn’t even know you are bowing.( now You can come up with another idea of your own” well SGGS Ji has no feelings as well..” to continue the argument but remember, it contains Gurbani of our revered Guru unlike the stone which is just a stone)*
  Yes it is. Both are sign of respect.
So you cannot bow down to a neutral stone but you can bow down to a obviously ignorant worshipper? 
*How it can be the same? The ignorant worshiper is a human being, I respect human beings, if he worships stone, it is his choice, why would I mind it?  For me “Stone is a stone, a neutral or not”, who worships them, is a human being, he deserves the respect but not the stone by any reason. I will bow to him as I bow before elders, I do not bow to their views.*


Well, I think it is the same. All are done to show respect. Oh you didnt want my answer...
  NOOO really? Are you sure by bowing down you are not worshipping?
*Your statement is confusing, bowing and worshiping are two different things in context of social behavior and religious ritual acts.  When one bows to a religious entity, bowing is more than paying respect, in social context; it is just a sign of respect. *
  Yes bowing down is the first step like respect is the first step THEN learning takes place. But you can leave it at the respect stage. You respect but just don't want to learn, tere is nothing wrong with that
*First step some time turns out to be the last step too. If superficial faith is enough, I have no further comments; if it is more than that, I can continue. *

  We don't know that

  That's no proof.
*In the following Guru Nanak speaks against bowing to others, how in dreams he could have bowed to a stone as per your assumptions. What proof more we need. I have no solution for denials. Here it is again*
*ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮਹਲੁ ਹਜੂਰਿ ਦੂਜੇ ਨਿਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ **॥ **ਦਰਿ ਦਰਵਾਣੀ ਨਾਹਿ ਮੂਲੇ ਪੁਛ ਤਿਸੁ **॥ **ਛੁਟੈ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਬੋਲਿ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨਦਰਿ ਜਿਸੁ **॥**੩**॥ *
*Jā ka▫o mahal hajūr ḏūje nivai kis. **Ḏar ḏarvāṇī nāhi mūle pucẖẖ ṯis. **Cẖẖutai ṯā kai bol sāhib naḏar jis. ||3|| 
*


*More if it is accepted by a rational mind, do we need to respect stones? The words are so strong, there is no doubt that stones are not considered worth to be respected by a Sikh at all as per Gurbani
*
*ਪਾਥਰ  ਕਉ  ਬਹੁ  ਨੀਰੁ  ਪਵਾਇਆ  ॥
Pāthar ka▫o baho nīr pavā▫i▫ā.
Stones may be kept under water for a long time.

ਨਹ  ਭੀਗੈ  ਅਧਿਕ  ਸੂਕਾਇਆ  ॥੨॥
Nah bẖīgai aḏẖik sūkā▫i▫ā. ||2||
Even so, they do not absorb the water; they remain hard and dry. ||2|

MORE
ਜੋ  ਪਾਥਰ  ਕੀ  ਪਾਂਈ  ਪਾਇ  ॥
Jo pāthar kī pāŉ▫ī pā▫e.
Those who fall at the feet of a stone god-

ਤਿਸ  ਕੀ  ਘਾਲ  ਅਜਾਂਈ  ਜਾਇ  ॥੧॥
Ŧis kī gẖāl ajāŉ▫ī jā▫e. ||1||
their work is wasted in vain. ||1||*


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 29, 2008)

Bhagat Singh ji here's another shabad that tells us bowing to idol is useless.

MALAAR, FOURTH MEHL: All the beings and creatures which God has created . on their foreheds, He has written their
destiny. The Lord blesses His humble servant with glorious greatness. The Lord enjoins him to his tasks. || 1 || The True
Guru implants the Naam, the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, within.ang 1263

Chant the Name of the Lord, O Sikhs of the Guru, O my Siblings of Destiny. Only the Lord will carry you across the terrifying
world-ocean. || 1 || Pause || That humble being who worships, adores and serves the Guru is pleasing to my Lord God. To
worship and adore the True Guru is to serve the Lord. In His Mercy, He saves us and carries us across. || 2 || The ignorant
and the blind wander deluded by doubt; deluded and confused, they pick flowers to offer to their idols. They worship lifeless
stones and serve the tombs of the dead; all their efforts are useless. || 3 || He alone is said to be the True Guru, who
realizes God, and proclaims the Sermon of the Lord, Har, Har. Offer the Guru sacred foods, clothes, silk and satin robes of all
sorts; know that He is True. The merits of this shall never leave you lacking. || 4 || The Divine True Guru is the Embodiment,
the Image of the Lord; He utters the Ambrosial Word. O Nanak, blessed and good is the destiny of that humble being, who
focuses his consciousness on the Feet of the Lord. || 5 || 4 || ang 1264



In these ang Guru ji makes it clear, the humble being that worships, adores and serves the Guru is pleasing to my Lord God and to worship and adore the True Guru is to serve the Lord.

Now lets see what Guru ji says about worshiping the idol right after that.


The ignorant and the blind wander deluded by doubt; deluded and confused, they pick flowers to offer to their idols. They worship lifeless stones and serve the tombs of the dead; all their efforts are useless. || 3 || 

Guru ji says just offering flowers to the idol is useless then bowing down to the idol is just as useless if not more.

Once again Guru ji makes this clear.


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## Astroboy (Nov 29, 2008)

Page 729, Line 16
ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮਹਲੁ ਹਜੂਰਿ ਦੂਜੇ ਨਿਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ॥
जा कउ महलु हजूरि दूजे निवै किसु ॥
Jā ka▫o mahal hajūr ḏūje nivai kis.
And one who lives in the Mansion of the Lord's Presence, why should he bow down to any other?
*Guru Nanak Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


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## kiram (Nov 30, 2008)

namjap said:


> Page 729, Line 16
> ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮਹਲੁ ਹਜੂਰਿ ਦੂਜੇ ਨਿਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ॥
> जा कउ महलु हजूरि दूजे निवै किसु ॥
> Jā ka▫o mahal hajūr ḏūje nivai kis.
> ...



Namjap ji,

That is a beautiful Shabad indeed... Guru Ji's baani clarifies all doubts, perhaps paving a clear path for those who wish to meet Him... Thank you once again for sharing ji..


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 30, 2008)

So far shabads that mention worshipping idols have been put up. They have been wrongly used to claim that bowing to idols is not allowed in SGGS. I request all participants to put up shabads that deal specifically with bowing and worshipping. *We all agreed already that worshipping idols is ignorance (to Sikhs at least).*

Pk70 ji, give me sometime to reply to you. You have misunderstood that incident.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 30, 2008)

namjap said:


> Page 729, Line 16
> ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮਹਲੁ ਹਜੂਰਿ ਦੂਜੇ ਨਿਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ॥
> जा कउ महलु हजूरि दूजे निवै किसु ॥
> Jā ka▫o mahal hajūr ḏūje nivai kis.
> ...


Namjap ji the bowing in that sentence means surrendering or giving up. Guru ji is saying. Surrender to the Lord and nothing else.
That bowing could also apply to SGGS. Why should you bow to SGGS when you live in the Mansion of the Lord's presence, sorta thing. agreed?


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## Astroboy (Nov 30, 2008)

I kinda knew it would come to this. And many Sikhs do not know where the Mansion of the Lord is.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 30, 2008)

namjap said:


> I kinda knew it would come to this. And many Sikhs do not know where the Mansion of the Lord is.


Mansion of the Lord is his worlds, his creation. Technically speaking we live in his mansion.  Nice place he's got eh?

Come to what? PLease explain.


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## Astroboy (Nov 30, 2008)

Page 795, Line 9
ਮਨੁ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਤਨੁ ਵੇਸ ਕਲੰਦਰੁ ਘਟ ਹੀ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਾ ॥
मनु मंदरु तनु वेस कलंदरु घट ही तीरथि नावा ॥
Man manḏar ṯan ves kalanḏar gẖat hī ṯirath nāvā.
My mind is the temple, and my body is the simple cloth of the humble seeker; deep within my heart, I bathe at the sacred shrine.
Guru Nanak Dev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 30, 2008)

Now you are just going off topic. :yes:


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## Astroboy (Nov 30, 2008)

Page 875, Line 3
ਹਿੰਦੂ ਪੂਜੈ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥
हिंदू पूजै देहुरा मुसलमाणु मसीति ॥
Hinḏū pūjai ḏehurā musalmāṇ masīṯ.
The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque.
Devotee Namdev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## Astroboy (Nov 30, 2008)

Page 102, Line 3
ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
सभ किछु घर महि बाहरि नाही ॥
Sabẖ kicẖẖ gẖar mėh bāhar nāhī.
Everything is within the home of the self; there is nothing beyond.
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


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## Astroboy (Nov 30, 2008)

ਚਚਾ  ਰਚਿਤ  ਚਿਤ੍ਰ  ਹੈ  ਭਾਰੀ  ॥ 
चचा रचित चित्र है भारी ॥ 
Cẖacẖā racẖiṯ cẖiṯar hai bẖārī. 
CHACHA: He painted the great picture of the world. 

ਤਜਿ  ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ  ਚੇਤਹੁ  ਚਿਤਕਾਰੀ  ॥ 
तजि चित्रै चेतहु चितकारी ॥ 
Ŧaj cẖiṯrai cẖeṯahu cẖiṯkārī. 
Forget this picture, and remember the Painter. 

ਚਿਤ੍ਰ  ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ  ਇਹੈ  ਅਵਝੇਰਾ  ॥ 
चित्र बचित्र इहै अवझेरा ॥ 
Cẖiṯar bacẖiṯar ihai avjẖerā. 
This wondrous painting is now the problem. 

ਤਜਿ  ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ  ਚਿਤੁ  ਰਾਖਿ  ਚਿਤੇਰਾ  ॥੧੨॥ 
तजि चित्रै चितु राखि चितेरा ॥१२॥ 
Ŧaj cẖiṯrai cẖiṯ rākẖ cẖiṯerā. ||12|| 
Forget this picture and focus your consciousness on the Painter. ||12||


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 30, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Namjap ji the bowing in that sentence means surrendering or giving up. Guru ji is saying. Surrender to the Lord and nothing else.
> That bowing could also apply to SGGS. Why should you bow to SGGS when you live in the Mansion of the Lord's presence, sorta thing. agreed?


 
Bhagat Singh ji, I make this simple as possible, Please answer the follow question?

In the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the bani the Lords word?  Yes or No either way, please back it up with support using Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 30, 2008)

Singh said:


> Bhagat Singh ji, I make this simple as possible, Please answer the follow question?
> 
> In the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the bani the Lords word?  Yes or No either way, please back it up with support using Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.


What do you mean?


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## Astroboy (Nov 30, 2008)

Aad Ji, put forth in one of her posts, whether we are bowing to the printed paper or the wisdom of Guru Ji when we bow to SGGS. 

In my opinion, it's the latter.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 30, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> What do you mean?


 
Is the bani the Lords word?


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 30, 2008)

Singh said:


> Is the bani the Lords word?


Does this Lord speak?


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## pk70 (Nov 30, 2008)

*Namjap ji and Bhagat Singh ji*
*Please do not abuse Guru Shabad with futile comments. Guru ji is not saying what you have been saying so far. In this Guru Vaak, Guru is just expressing who has realized the Lord, doesn’t bow to others because there is none to bow. The word mansion used by translator makes you think about a special mansion of the Lord which is a misunderstanding. Lord’s presence is every where but to realize that presence in reality is not as easy as we say HE is every where. Saying “He is every where” and “living  actually in that experience” are two different things. *


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 30, 2008)

namjap said:


> Aad Ji, put forth in one of her posts, whether we are bowing to the printed paper or the wisdom of Guru Ji when we bow to SGGS.
> 
> In my opinion, it's the latter.


 
Namjap ji its a good point. This was cleared up in the video I presented at the beginning of the discussion. The body of the Guru is not Guru because the body turned into dust. And if it was then we would say the Guru died, which is not the case. Guru is the word of God; the bani; the Shabad Guru.

Now like Bhagat Singh ji put it in one of his post that its simpler as bowing to idol and Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is completely wrong. What is an idol just a picture or a stone. What is Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, its the spoken words of God.


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 30, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Does this Lord speak?


 
What does this question got to do with what I am asking you?


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 30, 2008)

The ten gurus died. Why is that not the case?

Again, does God speak?


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## BhagatSingh (Nov 30, 2008)

Singh said:


> What does this question got to do with what I am asking you?


WOW, you asked if SGGS is God's word. So i asked, can he speak? 
How do you NOT see a connection?


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## Archived_Member4 (Nov 30, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> The ten gurus died. Why is that not the case?
> 
> Again, does God speak?


 
Okay if ten Gurus died.  Please present evidence the ten Gurus died.

Once again im ask you, what does your question got to do with what I am asking you.


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 1, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> WOW, you asked if SGGS is God's word. So i asked, can he speak?
> How do you NOT see a connection?


 

This is so childish Bhagat Singh you continue with this childish behaviour.:}:

Alright if i answer the question you posed to me will you answer the question: the bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is it the Lords word?


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

Singh said:


> Okay if ten Gurus died.  Please present evidence the ten Gurus died.


People of their time saw them die then cremated them. What kind of stupidity is this? I thought that at least, this would be general knowledge. Kind of obvious in a sense.

you present evidence that they didn't die.


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## spnadmin (Dec 1, 2008)

_The SGGS was made Gurus by the last of the living Sikh Masters, Guru Gobind Singh Ji in 1708. Guru Gobind Singh said before his demise that the Sikhs were to treat the SGGS as their next Guru. Guru Ji said "Sab Sikhan ko hokam hai Guru Manyo Granth" meaning "All Sikhs are commanded to take the Granth as Guru"_. NationMaster - Encyclopedia: Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  Meaning that the Adi Granth is the Guru. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But Guru Nanak Dev ji did not take credit personally because the Satguru is greater than ink and paper and all the words he had to describe Him.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾਗਦ ਲਖ ਮਣਾ ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਕੀਚੈ ਭਾਉ ॥ 
naanak kaagadh lakh manaa parr parr keechai bhaao ||
O Nanak, if I had hundreds of thousands of stacks of paper, and if I were to read and recite and embrace love for the Lord,

   ਮਸੂ ਤੋਟਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਲੇਖਣਿ ਪਉਣੁ ਚਲਾਉ ॥ 
masoo thott n aavee laekhan poun chalaao ||
and if ink were never to fail me, and if my pen were able to move like the wind
  
 ਭੀ ਤੇਰੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਹਉ ਕੇਵਡੁ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਉ ॥੪॥੨॥ 
bhee thaeree keemath naa pavai ho kaevadd aakhaa naao ||4||2||
-even so, I could not estimate Your Value. How can I describe the Greatness of Your Name? ||4||2||

Shabad means "word" in Sanskrit, it means sound, and it means voice. The Words of Guruji are the Shabad Guru -- Of course the Granth Sahib is the Word of the Satguru - The Satguru is speaking through Guruji.

ਕਰਤਾ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਤੇਰੈ ਜੋਰਿ ॥ 
karathaa sabh ko thaerai jor ||
O Creator Lord, all are in Your Power.

  
 ਏਕੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੀਐ ਜਾ ਤੂ ਤਾ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
eaek sabadh beechaareeai jaa thoo thaa kiaa hor ||1|| rehaao ||
I dwell upon the One Word of the Shabad. You are mine-what else do I need? ||1||Pause||
  
 ਜਾਇ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਤੁਸੀ ਰਾਵਿਆ ਕਿਨੀ ਗੁਣਂ​*ੀ ॥ 
jaae pushhahu sohaaganee thusee raaviaa kinee gunanaee ||
Go, and ask the happy soul-brides, ""By what virtuous qualities do you enjoy your Husband Lord?""
  
 ਸਹਜਿ ਸੰਤੋਖਿ ਸੀਗਾਰੀਆ ਮਿਠਾ ਬੋਲਣੀ ॥ 
sehaj santhokh seegaareeaa mithaa bolanee ||
"We are adorned with intuitive ease, contentment and sweet words.
  
 ਪਿਰੁ ਰੀਸਾਲੂ ਤਾ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਾ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣੀ ॥੨॥ 
pir reesaaloo thaa milai jaa gur kaa sabadh sunee ||2||
We meet with our Beloved, the Source of Joy, when we listen to the Word of the Guru's Shabad."||2||

Ang 15

And then

ਨਾਨਕ ਮਨੁ ਸਮਝਾਈਐ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥ 
naanak man samajhaaeeai gur kai sabadh saalaah ||
O Nanak, instruct your mind through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, and praise the Lord.

Ang 23


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 1, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> People of their time saw them die then cremated them. What kind of stupidity is this? I thought that at least, this would be general knowledge. Kind of obvious in a sense.
> 
> you present evidence that they didn't die.


 


> Therefore, you should not have any problem accepting just SGGS because it is the jyot of the human gurus. There is no difference between SGGS and Gurus therefore, let's all follow SGGS!!


 
The two above post were written my Bhagat Singh ji, does anyone see the contradiction here. Second quote from a different thread.  

Also no one cremated Guru Nanak Dev jis body under the covers only flowers were found the next morning.  Also no one cremated Guru Arjan Dev jis body.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

Singh said:


> The two above post were written my Bhagat Singh ji, does anyone see the contradiction here. Second quote from a different thread.


You took those out of context. :inca:



> Also no one cremated Guru Nanak Dev jis body under the covers only flowers were found the next morning. Also no one cremated Guru Arjan Dev jis body.


I made my point.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

Singh said:


> This is so childish Bhagat Singh you continue with this childish behaviour.:}:
> 
> Alright if i answer the question you posed to me will you answer the question: the bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is it the Lords word?


If you think simple yet complicated questions are childish then you need to go look up the word childish, sir! :yes: Keep a dictionary at hand or something.

you can do whatever you like.


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 1, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> If you think simple yet complicated questions are childish then you need to go look up the word childish, sir! :yes: Keep a dictionary at hand or something.
> 
> you can do whatever you like.


 
Are you going to answer the question or not?


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

> > Quote:
> > Originally Posted by *BhagatSingh*
> >
> >
> ...


Fixed up Singh's post. Now you may answer him. 


i will answer as well Singh ji.


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 1, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> You took those out of context. :inca:
> 
> 
> I made my point.


 
I have no response to this but just a sigh


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

Singh said:


> I have no response to this but just a sigh


Don't run out of breath.


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 1, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Fixed up Singh's post. Now you may answer him.
> 
> 
> i will answer as well Singh ji.


 
Bhagat Singh ji if there was a physical difference then that would mean the Gurus did die.  Once again the Gurus body was not Guru.  If it was then the Gurus did die.  But this is not the case the Jyot is the Guru and this Jyot is the Shabad Guru that is in Sri Guru Granth Sahibji.  The Guru never dies it is eternal Bhagat Singh.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

Singh said:


> Bhagat Singh ji if there was a physical difference then that would mean the Gurus did die. Once again the Gurus body was not Guru. If it was then the Gurus did die. But this is not the case the Jyot is the Guru and this Jyot is the Shabad Guru that is in Sri Guru Granth Sahibji. The Guru never dies it is eternal Bhagat Singh.


By jyot I meant teachings. What is your meaning of jyot?


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 1, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> By jyot I meant teachings. What is your meaning of jyot?


 
Then back this up with proof that the jyot that existed in Guru ji is the teachings.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

You lost me, what are you talking about?
I meant "teachings" when I said "jyot".
replace the word jyot in my post with teachings.


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 1, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> You lost me, what are you talking about?
> I meant "teachings" when I said "jyot".
> replace the word jyot in my post with teachings.


 
Sure you did Bhagat Singh. :whisling:


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

lol you need help mate. call an ambulance wherever you are.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 1, 2008)

Sikhi is created by its founder Nanak. Each time I read his oblation to his creator, of needing to be as the dust upon the foot of such a great one, I wince, and indeed think it inappropriate to be so submitted to an unseen ‘Greater Power’. It is a valid fear but unwarranted in your case. The teaching, poetry and prose of Nanak is breathtakingly beautiful. His love and devotion to his creator is inspirational in its steadfast adherence in bleak and testing times. Bowing to the Guru Granth sahib is perfunctory and any anger arising from such necessity should be counselled and contemplated until the root of its animosity and anger if found. If our Guru walked the Earth would we not placed him in our finest Gurdwara and queue in the hot sun to pay homage and for a glimpse of him. But alas I fear the Gods descend into the world from their high thrones to be close to their little creations, and when found by the negative forces are hounded and betrayed, a heavy burden of guilt many religious faiths carry as a deep wound.  Your dilemma is resolved by introspection. Time out to consider why you are rebelling against bowing to the Granth Sahib.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

jeetjohal, can you at least try to post something that relates to the topic?


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## Archived_member7 (Dec 1, 2008)

People can i ask something here ...When we go to the Gurdwara Sahib ...we bow before the Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj Gyarvhi Paatshahi...we have seen every step of sewa...how is it different from a idol ?? should i say  have we not made a Idol of Guru Granth sahib ji ? Air conditioning , perfumes , and lot more ..tell me what is different ? even Ishnan is performed by covered Sahibji with plastic sheet...!!!!

When i had been to Nanaksar, Huzoor Sahib ..there was a Jatha who was rabidly argueing with the Granthi there for Sukhasan...

All the sewa being done, forgive me if i m wrong ..but i feel we r doing the same Murat vaad in the form of Guru Granth Sahib ji ...the difference here is the Murat is made of paper....and not of stone ...

Babaji's message to concentrate on Naam Simran of Akaal Purakh is sidelined...

To be frank we have moved back to what we were to go beyond ...

Bhul chuk Muaaf Karni


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

So Raj Khalsa, do you agree with me that we can bow down to an idol with respect but should not worship it?


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 1, 2008)

Respect is accorded to all as a matter of course. No Sikh bows to any other ‘’Idol’’ than The Guru Granth Sahib. If a religious leader is designated to carry the mantle of such a prestigious role then it may be reconsidered. Bowing to idols opens doors for media icons and other such types, and for this reason is prohibited. We are at war at present and although a perfect role model for leadership of Sikhs may be found as inspiration to the all generations and strata of Sikhism, we remain mindful of obstacles such ‘’Idols’ face as impediments to gaining such a powerful position. Until such as time, reverence for all, bowing of heart mind and Spirit only to our Creator, and his Word ...


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## Astroboy (Dec 1, 2008)

> Bhagat Singh ji if there was a physical difference then that would mean the Gurus did die.  Once again the Gurus body was not Guru.  If it was then the Gurus did die.  But this is not the case the Jyot is the Guru and this Jyot is the Shabad Guru that is in Sri Guru Granth Sahibji.  The Guru never dies it is eternal Bhagat Singh.



Page 660, Line 4
ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਨੀਤ ਨਵਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
साहिबु मेरा नीत नवा सदा सदा दातारु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Sāhib merā nīṯ navā saḏā saḏā ḏāṯār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
My Lord and Master is forever new; He is the Giver, forever and ever. ||1||Pause||
Guru Nanak Dev   -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

jeetijohal said:


> Respect is accorded to all as a matter of course. No Sikh bows to any other ‘’Idol’’ than The Guru Granth Sahib. If a religious leader is designated to carry the mantle of such a prestigious role then it may be reconsidered. Bowing to idols opens doors for media icons and other such types, and for this reason is prohibited. We are at war at present and although a perfect role model for leadership of Sikhs may be found as inspiration to the all generations and strata of Sikhism, we remain mindful of obstacles such ‘’Idols’ face as impediments to gaining such a powerful position. Until such as time, reverence for all, bowing of heart mind and Spirit only to our Creator, and his Word ...


ooh, I like your reasoning. This is solid for not bowing down to idols but it is a special case. Lets look at a general case.
If we weren't at "war", would you  still bow down to an idol to give respect?


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 1, 2008)

Okay let’s take the example of Sant Jarnail Bindranwale. This warrior was by no means an intellectual, but he had a strong Spiritual Presence and a cause and those who knew him were inspired by him. A man is judged by the substance and standing of his fellowship, and is the Sikh Elite had backed him, would we not all collectively have not only endorsed but idolised him as our Sikh Guru, upholding all Sikh values, culture and truth. 

He was alas destroyed because to have any cross section credibility he was required to battle against an oppressive regime, instead of, as most politicians do to sustain seats of power, bow* to the regime that holds his precious State in a vice like grip. Thus the reigning power destroyed him in such barbaric manner, and his sacred religious temple. 

Rhadoswami is now the greater belief system of Punjab with a majority of adherents and Sikhism in general loses because of it as it is a multi faith belief system. The Sants loss was a bitter blow, yes we would have worshipped our Christ and Sant but alas the media have a greater power, and defamation and scandalising campaign sought to divide Sikhs against him, and ultimately led to his horrendous assassination. 

It is a lesson for us all, and for this reason, I subtly and gently campaign for a Sikh Religious leader to be carrier of the Granth Sahib and its truth for Sikhs.


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## Astroboy (Dec 1, 2008)

*Moderator's Note: Please keep to the relevance of the thread.*


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 1, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> People can i ask something here ...When we go to the Gurdwara Sahib ...we bow before the Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj Gyarvhi Paatshahi...we have seen every step of sewa...how is it different from a idol ?? should i say have we not made a Idol of Guru Granth sahib ji ? Air conditioning , perfumes , and lot more ..tell me what is different ? even Ishnan is performed by covered Sahibji with plastic sheet...!!!!
> 
> When i had been to Nanaksar, Huzoor Sahib ..there was a Jatha who was rabidly argueing with the Granthi there for Sukhasan...
> 
> ...


 
RajKhalsa ji, Please tell us the similarity's bettween Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and a idol. Also tell us the differences? If you don't know what are the similarity's and difference then its really hard to speak on this topic.


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## Archived_member7 (Dec 1, 2008)

This is a matter of faith brother...for someone who has all the faith in the idol .there is nothing beyond ...for us who have faith in Sri Guru Granth sahibji ..we cannot just compare ..i dont think its good to compare ...t o each his own...at the same time we are Sikhs and not muslims ..there is no where mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj..to not bow before idols ..as if its a cardinal sin...


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 1, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> This is a matter of faith brother...for someone who has all the faith in the idol .there is nothing beyond ...for us who have faith in Sri Guru Granth sahibji ..we cannot just compare ..i dont think its good to compare ...t o each his own...at the same time we are Sikhs and not muslims ..there is no where mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj..to not bow before idols ..as if its a cardinal sin...


 
Actually in your post you did compare Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and the idol



> how is it different from a idol


 
Here you asks other whats the difference between Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and an idol and now your telling me its not good to compare or contrast! then you go on to say 



> should i say have we not made a Idol of Guru Granth Sahib ji ?


 

What is all of this RajKhalsa ji, also Guru Nanak Dev ji already spoke to people who put there faith in a idol look in this discussion on what he has said.



> there is no where mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj..to not bow before idols ..as if its a cardinal sin


 
Then tells us where in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it is one can bow to an idol?

If you belief that you can bow down to a idol then I have no problem with it, but don't say it never says it in the Sri Guru Grnath Sahib ji becaus PK 70 and others have already explained this. Guru Nanak Dev ji has told us not to bow down to idols.


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## Archived_member7 (Dec 1, 2008)

i dont think you are understanding the point ..but you just want to debate ..so thats your choice ..i leave it to you...


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 1, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> i dont think you are understanding the point ..but you just want to debate ..so thats your choice ..i leave it to you...


 
I completely understand your point and I am asking you to explain how Sri Guru Ganth Sahib ji is an idol worship and how doing all of this you have described the same for idol and Guru ji?



> Air conditioning , perfumes , and lot more ..tell me what is different ? even Ishnan is performed by covered Sahibji with plastic sheet...!!!!


 
Because clearly you are saying the two are the same, by asking others to contrast from the two


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## Archived_member7 (Dec 1, 2008)

well there are clouds of confusion over you and your vision of understanding is blurred by the shear habit to argue and debate...so i again say i leave it to u


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 1, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> well there are clouds of confusion over you and your vision of understanding is blurred by the shear habit to argue and debate...so i again say i leave it to u


 
Since you choose not to explain yourself. Heres a video that was presented at the beginning of the discussion that will clear things up for you. 

YouTube - Idol worship - SIKH RELIGION

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the living Guru. Each page is not called page its an ang of the Guru. The Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the word of God. 

and here's what Guru Nanak Dev ji says about worshiping idols

*Mėhlā 1. *
*First Mehl: *

*ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਲੇ ਭੂਲੇ ਅਖੁਟੀ ਜਾਂਹੀ ॥ *
*Hinḏū mūle bẖūle akẖutī jāŉhī. *
*The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way. *

*ਨਾਰਦਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਿ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਂਹੀ ॥ *
*Nāraḏ kahi▫ā sė pūj karāŉhī. *
*As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. *

*ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁੰਗੇ ਅੰਧ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥ *
*Anḏẖe gunge anḏẖ anḏẖār. *
*They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind. *

*ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ ॥ *
*/ Pāthar le pūjėh mugaḏẖ gavār. *
*The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them. *

*ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ (SGGS Ji 556)*
*Ohi jā āp dube ṯum kahā ṯaraṇhār. ||2|| *
*But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2||* 

Worshiping Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji one is liberated. Woshiping idols one is losted not liberated.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

Singh ji stop posting the same **** over and over again. This thread is about bowing to an idol not worshipping them!


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 1, 2008)

The Sikh religion was formed as a step and move away from idolatry worship of so called avatars and deities, and instead to live the true word and become of the Spirit. Sikhism is a faith that gives birth to an autonomous thinking meritocracy, a strong race of piety and conscientiousness. Its foundation stone is morality and honour based on strong family values. It is best that way, should a religious inspirational Lord rise in our ranks then we welcome such an authority, but I remind you again of the many impediments obstructing the coming of any such Saviour in most faiths.


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## Archived_member7 (Dec 1, 2008)

i m sorry for my delayed reply..yes Bhagat ji we can bow before them..we may not worship idols...and i dont know what Singh saab gets ..by argueing ..the thing is we ending up being like second muslims...


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 1, 2008)

rajkhalsa said:


> i m sorry for my delayed reply..yes Bhagat ji we can bow before them..we may not worship idols...and i dont know what Singh saab gets ..by argueing ..the thing is we ending up being like second muslims...


 
You and Bhagat Singh can bow all you like to an idol. A Sikh doesn't bow to an idol. Unless you and Bhagat Singh have a tuk from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that says a Sikh can bow then a Sikh can, other than that its your guys belief and you two have every right to practice.


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## pk70 (Dec 1, 2008)

*Singh ji*

*I would ask my Lord to end my life before I have to bow before an Idol; they are condemned so sternly in Gurbani how I can dare to bow before them to please others. Death is better than selling the soul to others. Guru ji set us free, why would I enslave myself to this for any thing! How others take it, I wouldn’t care; I am responsible for my actions.*


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

Singh said:


> You and Bhagat Singh can bow all you like to an idol. A Sikh doesn't bow to an idol. Unless you and Bhagat Singh have a tuk from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that says a Sikh can bow then a Sikh can, other than that its your guys belief and you two have every right to practice.


We don't and neither do you, which was why I say its a personal thing.


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## spnadmin (Dec 1, 2008)

Just trying to refocus the discussion by asking these questions. Pretend you are explaining the subtleties of Sikhism to a convert.

1. If you believe that bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib is NOT the same as bowing to an idol, can you explain why?

But -- If you DO believe that bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the SAME as bowing to an idol, then take a look at the second question.

2. Converts are taught that Sikhism is a monotheistic religion. If bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the same as bowing to an idol, does this mean that Sikhism is not a monothesitic religion? 

or,

2.a Would you advise converts that they should NOT bow to Sri Guru Granth Sahib because that would be a form of idol worship?

Please do not direct your answers to me. These questions are for moderation purposes only -- and I have already made up my mind. Please try to direct your answers to the reading audience which includes many converts to Sikhism. Thanx


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 1, 2008)

Pyari Sadh Sangat ji,


aad0002 said:


> Just trying to refocus the discussion by asking these questions. Pretend you are explaining the subtleties of Sikhism to a convert.
> 
> 1. If you believe that bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib is NOT the same as bowing to an idol, can you explain why?
> 
> But -- If you DO believe that bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the SAME as bowing to an idol, then take a look at the second question.


 
Between an idol and SGGS
*Similarities:*
-Both lifeless
-both thought to contain God or his word
-both treated in the same way like Rajkhalsa ji mentioned

*differences:*
- one has the ability to teach (SGGS), the other doesn't (the idol in hindu mythology DOES in fact teach! so we do have to take that into account, if we do this becomes a similarity)

NOTE: if anyone can think of more please add to the list.

How is bowing to SGGS same as bowing to idol?
well, respect! you want to give respect, you bow down.

how is bowing down to SGGS different that bowing down to idol?
well, when you bow to SGGS, you do that to say you want to learn, which you do *IF* you read or listen.
When you bow down to idol, it is nothing but respect, no gain but personal satisfaction if you are a hindu. Personal satisfaction because you think you are in presence of god, (which you always are even if the idol is not present).




> 2. Converts are taught that Sikhism is a monotheistic religion. If bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the same as bowing to an idol, does this mean that Sikhism is not a monothesitic religion?


There are similarities and differences, of course. Again, bowing down does not change anything. You can bow or choose not to bow, it doesn't matter. In the end, your deeds that count. 
SGGS of course, does not require you to bow to it.



> or,
> 
> 2.a Would you advise converts that they should NOT bow to Sri Guru Granth Sahib because that would be a form of idol worship?


Well, I don't think bowing down is idol worship unless the worship requires you to bow down. Bowing down in indian culture is sign of respect. It can also mean surrender, in which case Sikhs only surrender to the Lord, NOT EVEN SGGS!! 




> Please do not direct your answers to me. These questions are for moderation purposes only -- and I have already made up my mind. Please try to direct your answers to the reading audience which includes many converts to Sikhism. Thanx


Thanks for the questions. 

Conclusion:
It's a personal thing. You can believe bowing down to be worship, surrender or respect. Depending on which one you feel, you will do things accordingly.


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## Astroboy (Dec 1, 2008)

YouTube - Idol worship - SIKH RELIGION


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## Astroboy (Dec 1, 2008)

YouTube - Aarti - Sikh Prayer


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 1, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Pyari Sadh Sangat ji,
> 
> 
> Between an idol and SGGS
> ...


 
SIREE RAAG, THIRD MEHL: Discarding the Ambrosial Nectar, they greedily grab the poison; they serve others, instead of the Lord. They lose their faith, they have no understanding; night and day, they suffer in pain. The blind, self-willed manmukhs do not even think of the Lord; they are drowned to death without water. || 1 || ang 31​

They all show off and pretend, but the self-willed manmukhs do not​
understand. ang 28

The self-willed manmukhs do not know the Naam. Without the Name, they lose their honor. They do not savor the Taste of the Shabad; they are attached to the love of duality. They are worms in the filth of manure. They fall into manure, and into manure they are absorbed. || 2 || ang 28​


The self-willed manmukhs are polluted. They are filled with the pollution of egotism, wickedness and desire. Without the Shabad, this pollution is not washed off; through the cycle of death and rebirth, they waste away in misery. Engrossed in this transitory drama, they are not at home in either this world or the next. || 3 || ang 29​


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 2, 2008)

Antonia ji  you might as well just start deleting unrelated posts. :yes:


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## spnadmin (Dec 2, 2008)

Nam Jap ji

Thank you for the beautiful Artee. In another place in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Guru Gurji says

ਨਿਵਿ ਨਿਵਿ ਲਾਗਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
        niv niv laagaa thaeree paaee ||
               I bow down and fall at Your Feet.

And I think that is an important difference -- we bow and then we prostrate ourselves before Guruji -- in surrender to the Shabad.


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## spnadmin (Dec 2, 2008)

Bhagat ji,

So far _mostly_ everything looks related to the first post in the thread.  I checked earlier this evening, wondering myself. So far so good. There are some snide remarks here and there, but not that bad to warrant full scale thread surgery.

Added some thoughts in the last coupla minutes.


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 2, 2008)

pk70 said:


> *Singh ji*
> 
> *I would ask my Lord to end my life before I have to bow before an Idol; they are condemned so sternly in Gurbani how I can dare to bow before them to please others. Death is better than selling the soul to others. Guru ji set us free, why would I enslave myself to this for any thing! How others take it, I wouldn’t care; I am responsible for my actions.*


 
I couldn't agree more. We are not here to please others; this life is about reaching God by the teachings of the Gurus. I bow to an idol after saying I follow Guru ji, call me a self-willed manmukh then.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 2, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Bhagat ji,
> 
> So far _mostly_ everything looks related to the first post in the thread.  I checked earlier this evening, wondering myself. So far so good. There are some snide remarks here and there, but not that bad to warrant full scale thread surgery.
> 
> Added some thoughts in the last coupla minutes.


ful scale thread surgery
I like that phrase. :}{}{}:


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 2, 2008)

Sikhism is a philosophy, the Guru Sahib Ji is the sacred word of the Waheguru Ji. In reverence we bow to wisdom and the love and peace it brings to our collective souls, as we touch the feet in humble supplication to our family and community elders, those pillars of sobriety and sense giving guidance to what can be a turbulent and tempestuous life at times, wherein we lose focus and sight of long term goals, whilst dwelling upon transitory and temporal distractions and circumstances that may appear, as Plato’s philosophy of man in a cave battling with his shadows.

Bowing to the Guru Granth Sahib Ji should not in any way pose any problematic obstacles for ‘converts’ if they encounter difficulty in doing so maybe they should consider other faiths or doctrines. Sikhism prides itself upon a faith of honour, virtue, chastity, morals and sound family values. Proud in our demeanour, heads held high with humbled supplicated hearts. It is an inimitable combination. 

The danger arises where converting takes place to compromise ones statues’ and principles toward gaining number in sangats of converts. The primary principles risks shifting from the inestimable wealth of its wisdom, to preachers seeking a badge in recognition of bolstering the ranks of Sikhism. It is a risk the diligent need to be mindful and wary of.


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## spnadmin (Dec 2, 2008)

jeetijohal said:


> Sikhism is a philosophy, the Guru Sahib Ji is the sacred word of the Waheguru Ji. In reverence we bow to wisdom and the love and peace it brings to our collective souls, as we touch the feet in humble supplication to our family and community elders, those pillars of sobriety and sense giving guidance to what can be a turbulent and tempestuous life at times, wherein we lose focus and sight of long term goals, whilst dwelling upon transitory and temporal distractions and circumstances that may appear, as Plato’s philosophy of man in a cave battling with his shadows.
> 
> Bowing to the Guru Granth Sahib Ji should not in any way pose any problematic obstacles for ‘converts’ if they encounter difficulty in doing so maybe they should consider other faiths or doctrines. Sikhism prides itself upon a faith of honour, virtue, chastity, morals and sound family values. Proud in our demeanour, heads held high with humbled supplicated hearts. It is an inimitable combination.
> 
> The danger arises where converting takes place to compromise ones statues’ and principles toward gaining number in sangats of converts. The primary principles risks shifting from the inestimable wealth of its wisdom, to preachers seeking a badge in recognition of bolstering the ranks of Sikhism. It is a risk the diligent need to be mindful and wary of.



Jeetijohal ji,

I definitely agree that efforts to gain lots of converts in a sangat causes a lot of damage to one's understanding of the core beliefs of Sikhism.

But -- the real problem for converts is that they often hear so many conflicting messages from those who are born into Sikhism. For example, the issue where I put some focus. Is bowing to Guruji the same as bowing to an idol? Is bowing the same as worshiping? A convert can read one explanation on a good website about this and then go to a forum and read 10 different opinions. And people get to fighting about it. This can be extremely distressing for a convert.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 2, 2008)

Preaching faith should not be assigned to novices, and seeking truth from angst ridden posters on forums, is as I have learnt foolhardy, rather than learning or gaining any enlightenment one stands in danger of losing one’s faith and sense of right. Atheism grows like a plague upon the heads of steadfast belivers and being mindful of this, Sikhism is happy to have new members in its sanctum without compromise to its underlying premise and values.

Children from good families touch the effect of elders as a mark of respect. Why then would we question the bowing of head top the sacred teachings and word of the Guru Granth Sahib. Our Gianni are all male and we have do not discuss issues prevalent in the media symptomatic of the lack of values in certain groups of society. 

It is a blessing and a privilege to be part of any Sangat, any personal issues must be redirected to a facility of elders delegated to this task or settled externally from the confines of the sanctum of the Temple and Gurdwara.  Religion is under attack and all must be vigilant in defending this besieged institution given the harmful, contradictory and wrong dictums offered by the media to the people.


WaheGuru Satnam ...


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 2, 2008)

jeetijohal said:


> Children from good families touch the effect of elders as a mark of respect. Why then would we question the bowing of head top the sacred teachings and word of the Guru Granth Sahib.


insert stone/idol in that question above
Children from good families touch the effect of elders as a mark of respect. 
Why then would we question the bowing of head to the sacred stones and idols?


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 2, 2008)

***Children from good families touch the feet of elders as a mark of respect. 
Why then would we question the bowing of head to the Guru Granth Sahib as a mark of respect ...***

It is considered wise to proof read one's writing prior to posting....

Some day I will master the art of editing. JJ.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 2, 2008)

jeetijohal said:


> Children from good families touch the feet of elders as a mark of respect.
> Why then would we question the bowing of head to the Guru Granth Sahib as a mark of respect ...


insert stone/idol in that question above
Children from good families touch the effect of elders as a mark of respect. 
Why then would we question the bowing of head to the sacred stones and idols as a mark of respect?


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## pk70 (Dec 2, 2008)

*Aad Bhain jio*

*If you allow me, I want to say some thing special to all converts who possibly can get confused due to some Sikhs mind-set views which has nothing to do with Guru Teachings. As hinted by jeetijohal, the media and other people are trying to convince the Sikhs that it is OK to pay respect to other religions deities just for the sake of respect.*
*Let’s analyze how much sincerity is there in this act. Sikhs as taught by Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the Idols are stones, they are not better than any other stone ( Bhagat Naamdev), then on what ground, a Sikh can compromise with Guru Teachings? To please others, well if that is the case, then it is hypocrisy with string attached, why? In the mind of a Sikh, the Idol is just a piece of stone, in heart, there is no feelings for it at all, isn’t it a hypocritical act to show that the respect is given to the idol? Not believing in and still showing respect! It just cannot be compared with elders, if any one does, I just cannot comprehend the state of that mind. Bowing to elders is a social tradition prevailed in the east. Bowing to stones is not any social tradition at all, bowing to stones is a religious act, if it is performed, there are two scenarios, either one has started believing in them or he or she is just hypocrite, because who (other than Sikhs) bow to the idols, they believe in them, at least they are not hypocrites like Sikhs who bow for show off.  In Gurbani, they(Idols) are criticized in very strong language. *
*The converts should try to learn from Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji than listening to the people who have hundred directions due to having incomplete knowledge of what Guru wants from them*
*In Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji, the Idols and other gods are criticized in very strong language, why they are criticized in such a way? Answer is very simple; Guru doesn’t want his followers to consider them of worth paying attention. Here are  just  a couple examples through which Guru explains who they are, first” devyas” then “the Idols”*
*ਪੰਨਾ 129, ਸਤਰ 8**ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵ**ਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਹੈ ਮਾਇਆ **॥
**देवी देवा मूलु है माइआ ॥
**Ḏ**evī **ḏ**evā mūl hai mā▫i▫ā.
**The source, the root, of the gods and goddesses is Maya.
**ਮਃ **3 *
*( Well, it is Maya that separates us from the Lord( Japji)*

*ਪੰਨਾ 332, ਸਤਰ 12**ਮਾਟੀ ਕੇ ਕਰਿ**ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵ**ਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਜੀਉ ਦੇਹੀ **॥
**माटी के करि देवी देवा तिसु आगै जीउ देही ॥
**Mātī ke kar **ḏ**evī **ḏ**evā **ṯ**is āgai jī▫o **ḏ**ehī.
**Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them.
**ਭਗਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ*
*(Imagine what ignorant would have done it for these stones, should we applaud that too!)*
*ਪੰਨਾ 637, ਸਤਰ 5**ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵ**ਾ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਭਾਈ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਗਉ ਕਿਆ ਦੇਹਿ*
*Ḏ**evī **ḏ**evā pūjī▫ai b**ẖ**ā▫ī ki▫ā māga▫o ki▫ā **ḏ**ėh.
**Why worship gods and goddesses, O Siblings of Destiny? What can we ask of them? What can they give us?
**ਮਃ **1   -*
*All above Guru Vakas are preparing the followers to stay away from these idols and devtas and lean only on Guru and the Lord.*

*Now look what is said about these idols carrying image of Devtas*
*ਪੰਨਾ 525, ਸਤਰ 5**ਏਕੈ**ਪਾਥਰ**ਕੀਜੈ ਭਾਉ **॥
**Ėkai pāthar kījai b**ẖ**ā▫o.
**One stone is lovingly decorated,
** ਦੂਜੈ**ਪਾਥਰ**ਧਰੀਐ ਪਾਉ **॥
**Ḏ**ūjai pāthar **ḏẖ**arī▫ai pā▫o.
**while another stone is walked upon.
**ਭਗਤ ਨਾਮਦੇਵ ਜੀ *
*You see what Bhagat ji is saying? There is no difference between these Idols or other stones.*
*ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕਉ ਕਹਤੇ ਦੇਵ **॥ 
**Jo pāthar ka▫o kahṯe ḏev. 
**Those who call a stone their god- 

**ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਵ **॥ 
**Ŧā kī birthā hovai sev. 
**their service is useless. 

**ਜੋਪਾਥਰਕੀਪਾਂਈਪਾਇ**॥ 
**Jo pāthar kī pāŉ▫ī pā▫e. 
**Those who fall at the feet of a stone god- ( It means bowing)

**ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਘਾਲ ਅਜਾਂਈ ਜਾਇ **॥**੧**॥ ( MEHLA 5)
**Ŧis kī gẖāl ajāŉ▫ī jā▫e. ||1|| 
**their work is wasted in vain. ||1||*

*ਪੰਨਾ 1160, ਸਤਰ 8**ਨ**ਪਾਥਰ**ੁ ਬੋਲੈ ਨਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਦੇਇ **॥
**Na pāthar bolai nā kic**ẖẖ**ḏ**e▫e.
**The stone does not speak; it does not give anything to anyone.
**ਮਃ **5*
*Why is this said? Answer: They are just stones, so they are merely stones in the eyes of Sikhs, then how respect can be shown to them by bowing? In heart, idea about them is different, act of showing respect to them is different, and it is called hypocrisy*
*Now look at the other cry of love the Lord*

*ਪੰਨਾ 45, ਸਤਰ 6**ਇਕੁ ਪਛਾਣੂ ਜੀਅ ਕਾ**ਇਕੋ**ਰਖਣਹਾਰੁ **॥
**Ik pac**ẖẖ**ā**ṇ**ū jī▫a kā iko rak**ẖ**a**ṇ**hār.
**The One is the Knower of all beings; He alone is our Savior.
**ਮਃ **5 *
*ਪੰਨਾ 45, ਸਤਰ 8**ਇਕੋ**ਭਾਈ ਮਿਤੁ ਇਕੁ ਇਕੋ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ **॥
**Iko b**ẖ**ā▫ī mi**ṯ** ik iko mā**ṯ** pi**ṯ**ā.
**The One is my Brother, the One is my Friend. The One is my Mother and Father.
**ਮਃ **5 *
*ਪੰਨਾ 590, ਸਤਰ 3**ਹਰਿ**ਇਕੋ**ਦਾਤਾ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਹਰਿ ਇਕੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ **॥
**Har iko **ḏ**ā**ṯ**ā sevī▫ai har ik **ḏẖ**i▫ā▫ī▫ai.
**Serve the One Lord, the Great Giver; meditate on the One Lord.
**ਮਃ **4*
*ਪੰਨਾ 17, ਸਤਰ 7**ਨਾਉ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਨਾਉ**ਮੰਨੀਐ**ਅਖੰਡੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ **॥**੩**॥
**Nā▫o pūjī▫ai nā▫o mannī▫ai ak**ẖ**and sa**ḏ**ā sac**ẖ** so▫e. ||3||
**They worship the Naam, and they believe in the Naam. The True One is forever Intact and Unbroken. ||3||
**ਮਃ **1   -*
*ਪੰਨਾ 426, ਸਤਰ 6**ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਕੋਇ ਨ**ਮੰਨੀਐ**ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਪਤਿ ਗਵਾਈ 
**Bin nāvai ko▫e na mannī▫ai manmuk**ẖ** pa**ṯ** gavā▫ī.
**Without the Naam, no one is accepted; the self-willed manmukhs lose their honor.
**ਮਃ **3*
*Guru ji, takes on stones and Devtas and guides the followers to understand that worshiping or giving any consideration to them is an act of ignorance, means do not indulge in such act.  If these are considered just merely stones and Maya inflicted ones, why Guru ji would want his Sikhs to bow to them?  Tenth Master declares in Zaffarnama that he is Idol destroyer ( 96) Why? To point out Auranzeb's hypocrisy of standing against the Idols but in Guru's case Aurangzeb supported the Idol worshipers and turned against him. So message is very clear. Guru ji doesn’t teach Sikhs to be hypocrites like thinking they are stones but still paying respect is O.K. The coverts should follow the message of Guru about what these Idols and Devtas are in realty in the eyes of Guru ji. If some one comes up with an idea of bowing to the Idols as just showing respect, it bears no support from Gurbani, why such people should be listened to? I have good friends who are Hindus, I went with them to Mandir but I waited outside as they paid respect to the Idol they believed in. I respected that and I do not expect them to go to Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji and bow to it to please me. It is that simple.*
*Take another example of caste system; it is bluntly criticized in Gurbani because it is not what is weighed by the Lord but the sincere deeds. Converts should not follow those who still are into this illusion of caste but Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji*


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## spnadmin (Dec 2, 2008)

jeetijohal said:


> ***Children from good families touch the feet of elders as a mark of respect.
> Why then would we question the bowing of head to the Guru Granth Sahib as a mark of respect ...***
> 
> It is considered wise to proof read one's writing prior to posting....
> ...



jeetijohal ji

I understood what you meant before editing. Thanks for your insights. Certainly others also grasped your main idea.

Guru Fateh!


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## spnadmin (Dec 2, 2008)

pk70 ji and jeetijohal ji

Such answers you have given, straight from the heart. And they were focused on the message of the Guru. Many thanks to both of you for the time you took to put your heart and soul into helpful answers. Once, a while back, NamJap ji had asked me to start a thread for converts. The reason why I have resisted this is completely related to my concerns that so much heat rises from debate about the Gurbani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Heat rises even when Gurbani is clear and unambiguous. And believe me it does cause a lot of anxiety for converts. I have many times wondered what I was doing to myself 3 years later. Thinking BTW that I should run away as fast as I could run. A Bani that brings so much joy subjected to so much dissection and animosity. A Satguru who is without enmity, the subject of so much collective anger. Guru Nanak was never angry, but also he never shied away from speaking the truth as he understood it. 

The cure for my concerns has always been to return to the Guru for guidance. The thread that NamJap ji has suggested might be helpful afterall.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 3, 2008)

The problem lies with ‘debate’. Truth seekers cannot debate what an attested truth is and sound wisdom. Rather they seek to understand the underlying tenets of each given pearl. All scholars must approach the Guru Granth Sahib with love and the utmost respect. The Guru Granth Sahib is our Parent, Maat, Pita. Few tolerate any insolence from those limited understanding distorting what are sound edicts of the scriptures. 

Debating is a modern age phenomena, in days of yore one did not debate the ethics and principles rather one sought with humble supplication, to understand why and for what purpose they were written. Now Psychologists will tell you what is pure truth to one man this day, seems when he is angry with the world a  baseless nonsense if not an blatant lie. Environment changes one’s mindset, and it should always be acknowledge when seeking to understand the Bani, what is not clear to the mind today, will be made clearer at the a later time, when we are maybe is a clearer state of mind, and able to think reasonably rather than emotionally, with angered or pained heart.

The Bani is sacred, we would not suffer an inept to challenge what we know as sound philosophies. I am a sceptic, I challenge and reason everything, but rarely to a faithful of the Word. Wisdom comes with understanding, understanding is gained when the receptive mind becomes amenable to a universal of knowledge. If the mind is aggressive, or arrogant and boastful, knowledge becomes impaired in turn, and scholars cast aspersion son the validity of tenets in the stead of cultivating a modicum of regard for a cosmological fount that at times becomes as bitter gall when chemically reacting with angered or boastful polluted minds.

Knowledge is ones light and spiritual guide, ones conscience. It is ones parent always loving and counselling, sometimes scolding. It must as a precious tree be watered with spring, and tended with loving care for it is the tree where we find our shade rest, bears fruit, takes in toxins from the atmosphere and gives forth fragrant and gentle synergy cleansing the atmosphere about it. Thus is mans role with his spiritual environment, atmosphere and fellow men. One must at first find the cause of one’s anger and cure by the reconciling prior to knowledge, love and peace making their abode in the dwelling one’s mind and home.

Peace, Love and Many Blessing to all ...

Waheguru Satnam ...


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 6, 2008)

Sat shri akal,
now that i know that i was right in my saying that sikhs sould not bow to idols . what sould sikhs do in temples , stand like idols before idols??????


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 6, 2008)

There are forces at play seeking to undermine religion, to destroy its integrity and standing towards usurping the formidable power it holds and wields. Scandalisation efforts orchestrated by the media to undermine religions, predominantly Christianity are money and profit orientated. Religion yields little profit in this consumer driven age of greed and ambition, and therefore is of little interest to marketers unless it bows and connives with prevailing forces. The television evangelists as viewed on cable television contribute little to moral integrity or spiritual awakening, essential for mans release from his mortal being.

Many modern folk are raised in a confusing and contradictory environment, the scriptural tenets conflicting directly with modern day eulogy, and sensationalist scientific evidence for theories described fully and perfectly in the Bani. The Sikhs perfectly integrate the culture with modernism without concession, and although many discard their Sikh apparel and turban, they soon return to it when maturity and sense returns.

In this age of Kalyug, al are bound, some fight for peace and honour to prevail, others are bowed are likewise served by the evil powers. We change what we can and leave alone what we are unable. In the days of our Guru’s all underwent atrocities and acts of barbarism, as a testimony to their descendants of the great dignified sacrifice made by our forefathers that we be free to practice our faith and stand proud as nobleman of a blessed creed.

In this age of Kalyug, the good and valiant are bound, Armageddon rages in financial markets, politics, media and religion man find himself helpless to protest against war, suffering and evil as such evildoers are cloaked in respectability whilst the freedom fighters are marked as terrorists. A traversal of fate and fortune, it is a time and will soon pass....


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## Sinister (Dec 6, 2008)

Salutations to the cult of learners,

this is all a bunch of hyped up, typical cliche arguments you would expect to find on any Sikh disscussion board. 

we should bow to no one! and no thing! it is ethically and morally wrong (according to my taste, and the cramp in my leg)...everybody and everything is equally useless in this world and we should rejoice in this truth...the primitive humanly constructed divisions between the sacred and the profane are also useless.

We should replace Bowing with High-Fiving (we should all high-five the holy-books/idols as well. the more senstive veers out there can opt for a hug :...The mighty High-five symbolizes the spirit of cooperation, victory, equality and joy in one swoop of the arm and hand...the bow is used to segragate and make status and heirarchy within the populace.

High-fiving is also alot more fun than a bow :happy:

Keep it Awesome
Sinister.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 6, 2008)

Your fear of being outcast considered less than the noted individual you are causes you to espout so much verbiage. It is precisely this big melting pot of America that has caused this unholy hell. Fate places each man at his station, whether King or doorman, each has a role to play in this great grand opera that is life and living. What determines the King from the door man, the Prince from the Pauper, there is little distinction excepting breeding and indoctrinated finesses if both are equally sound and good individuals. The only division between men is morality, honour and integrity. A rich man with no honour, deceitful and arrogant is likened to a fool when compared to a penniless sage or a kindly elder with civility sufficing him common courtesy. The divisions of race, culture, class are distinct only by this code. 

What has the modern striving for equality and egalitarianism produced, nations and societies where feminists rule are greater in evil deeds than perfectly balanced cultures, the divide between rich and poor is only the balance in ones bank, they are both morally reprehensible, equally Godless and uninspired to change emboldened by a media anti culture aggrandising all things perverse, debauched and degrading at the expense of respectability, civilisation and culture, to the detriment of society as a whole.


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## pk70 (Dec 6, 2008)

Sinister said:


> Salutations to the cult of learners,
> 
> this is all a bunch of hyped up, typical cliche arguments you would expect to find on any Sikh disscussion board.
> 
> ...



*Sinister Ji*
*Let me first applaud you for being honest, daring to express what you feel. I always love to note down truthful behavior than hypocritical one. You are good at it, your sincerity has merit.*
* Now let’s consider comments in concept of the pursuit of the Creator.*
*Without humility, even civilized man is like a fully floated ball unable to still. It has no place in spiritual path; it is called a weight that drowns the soul by disabling it from floating over Maya-effects ever. Without humility, one is like a storm having a power to destroy everything in the way for very limited time. After that time lapses, it disappears by leaving a touch of being there for some moments. In spiritual world they are considered the poor ones who just wasted life in an illusion of being permanent. In the world where conceit and show off are considered influential weapons of achievement, in spiritual world, these are considered as signs of lowering the soul to the bottom after passing through a break of temporary joy and pleasures to plunge again into miseries eventually. High five is a fake expression; it has nothing sincere feelings save for a touch of conceited recognition. High five is dramatic hypocrisy being played under superficial gestures because all the reality of losing and gaining and their stunning effects, is tried to be hidden. Humility is an open gesture of respect and eagerness to learn. Without it, there is no possibility of spiritual pursuits, contrary to high five; it has built in energy to get elevated with spiritual enlightening. High five can be alright in the world  but in spiritual world, it is a recipe of disaster. Hope you would try to understand what I have expressed in stead of rushing to nail down reaction.*


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 6, 2008)

Sinister said:


> Salutations to the cult of learners,
> 
> this is all a bunch of hyped up, typical cliche arguments you would expect to find on any Sikh disscussion board.
> 
> ...


 
A person who has nothing virtuous to say, stays queit. This is my humble request to you; you like disrespecting Sikhi and like doing it openly. Then instead of writing this on a site. Go to an amritdhari Singh and openly express yourself. Tell him how you feel about the religion and his Guru is a book. Have an open discussion with him, man to man, heart to heart.:yes:


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## spnadmin (Dec 6, 2008)

Sinister said:


> Salutations to the cult of learners,
> 
> this is all a bunch of hyped up, typical cliche arguments you would expect to find on any Sikh disscussion board.
> 
> ...



Sinister ji

You know what? I agree with you. I *should not* bow, bend, kneel before SGGS. I also *should not* give Guruji the High 5. Why not? I* should not* do any of those things because *no one* and *no thing* and *no force* *should make me do anything. *

Being in the presence of Guruji is not about *should* nor is it about *joking around.* Anyway, not for me. Everyone is free to choose. 

I  bow, bend, kneel, prostrate myself before Guruji because I am moved *from within*. If I could dissolve into the floor, I would do that. 

What cliches?


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## pk70 (Dec 6, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Sinister ji
> 
> You know what? I agree with you. I *should not* bow, bend, kneel before SGGS. I also *should not* give Guruji the High 5. Why not? I* should not* do any of those things because *no one* and *no thing* and *no force* *should make me do anything. *
> 
> ...


 *What an expression of deep rooted faith that uproots the media influenced follow ups in context of spiritual longing! I bow to it.:yes:*


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## Sinister (Dec 7, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> Sinister ji
> 
> You know what? I agree with you. I *should not* bow, bend, kneel before SGGS. I also *should not* give Guruji the High 5. Why not? I* should not* do any of those things because *no one* and *no thing* and *no force* *should make me do anything. *
> 
> ...


 


WOW tuff crowd here!

I wanted to say something along these lines but i guess it came out wrong with a rather clownish post on high-five's. 

I think people should have the freedom to do what they want, and what we think is right. The clichés are the ways in which we designate 'appropriate behaviours'. With a tremendous amount of vigor and skill we divide sacred from the profane even with gestures. Dos and Donts from authority irritate me.

What makes an honest reaction?…bowing for the sake of bowing does not accomplish anything…if you want to bow … you should be allowed to bow…if you want to do a high five you should be allowed to do a high five. The cliché is the bow itself…anyone who visits the guru should not feel inclined, mandated or obligated to bow. (but this is not the case)...no other gesture of respect would be as acceptable by the sangat or any other institutional sants/cardinals.

I honestly don’t believe in bowing nor do I think it is a natural inclination of some spiritual mind, by any measure…in fact I view it as the opposite, unnatural. for example, Looking up at the night sky is an extraordinarily humbling spiritual experience that makes many “all tingly inside”…but we or I never bow to the sky nor have I felt week in my limbs while gazing with awe and appreciation.

I think a bow, for most, is more about submission than showing humility. It’s history is so formal and so cold. Ordinary peasants did it when they surrendered to the corrupt authority of kings and nobles. So bowing is still not 'cool' with me even if it is a display of humility … it can just be a symbolic show similar to how pk70 described a high-five, full of some conceit and mostly fear (pascals wager). Humility comes when someone sits down and develops patience and like pk70 said develops curiosity. When humility arrives it will not be distinguishable with grand ritualized symbolic gestures like bowing. It will be far more discrete and will be seen in smaller almost sub-conscious expressions of curiosity, like a question or a peep over the shoulder (that is spirituality). If you were to go up to an idol and give it a great big bear hug, I would be more inclined to call that person spiritually dedicated (but then again even a hug can be superficial just like a bow or a high five).


opinions are opinions

we can disagree without being disagreeable.

Nudge Nudge, wink wink, say no more?


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 7, 2008)

Sinister said:


> WOW tuff crowd here!
> 
> I wanted to say something along these lines but i guess it came out wrong with a rather clownish post on high-five's.
> 
> ...


 
Your post is an opinion, what the Gurus have said is not an opinion. You see the difference here. You want to do what you think is right. Go right ahead in the process of your "I want to do what I think is right." leave the insults to Sikhi aside otherwise be the man of your word and step up. I am speaking bluntly here for a reason. You take Sikhi as a joke and sit there for whatever reason and continue this disrespect. You're an agnostic your opinions are weak as this word.


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## spnadmin (Dec 7, 2008)

Submission for me is a good thing, sinister ji

ਆਈ ਪੂਤਾ ਇਹੁ ਜਗੁ ਸਾਰਾ ॥ 
aaee poothaa eihu jag saaraa ||
This whole world is the child of Maya.
  
 ਪ੍ਰਭ ਆਦੇਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਰਖਵਾਰਾ ॥ 
prabh aadhaes aadh rakhavaaraa ||
I bow in submission to God, my Protector from the very beginning of time.
  
 ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦੀ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਗੁ ॥ 
aadh jugaadhee hai bhee hog ||
He was in the beginning, He has been throughout the ages, He is now, and He shall always be.
  
 ਓਹੁ ਅਪਰੰਪਰੁ ਕਰਣੈ ਜੋਗੁ ॥੧੧॥ 
ouhu aparanpar karanai jog ||11||
He is unlimited, and capable of doing everything. ||11||
  
 ਦਸਮੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਾਨੁ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥ 
dhasamee naam dhaan eisanaan ||
The Tenth Day: Meditate on the Naam, give to charity, and purify yourself.
  
 ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਮਜਨੁ ਸਚਾ ਗੁਣ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥ 
anadhin majan sachaa gun giaan ||
Night and day, bathe in spiritual wisdom and the Glorious Virtues of the True Lord.
  
 ਸਚਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਭਾਗੈ ॥ 
sach mail n laagai bhram bho bhaagai ||
Truth cannot be polluted; doubt and fear run away from it.
  
 ਬਿਲਮੁ ਨ ਤੂਟਸਿ ਕਾਚੈ ਤਾਗੈ ॥ 
bilam n thoottas kaachai thaagai ||
The flimsy thread breaks in an instant.
  
 ਜਿਉ ਤਾਗਾ ਜਗੁ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣਹੁ ॥ 
jio thaagaa jag eaevai jaanahu ||
Know that the world is just like this thread.
  
ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਚੀਤੁ ਸਾਚਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਮਾਣਹੁ ॥੧੨॥ 
asathhir cheeth saach rang maanahu ||12||
Your consciousness shall become steady and stable, enjoying the Love of the True Lord. ||12||

It is the only thing that keeps me from going crazy. And then I can be useful to someone else.


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 7, 2008)

Sinister said:


> WOW tuff crowd here!
> 
> I wanted to say something along these lines but i guess it came out wrong with a rather clownish post on high-five's.
> 
> ...


 
All mankind are not born equal, some are blessed with good sound parenting and raised amidst respectability with moral values and civility to all. Others are born of a malignant underclass, unable to overcome the evil that spawned them, spend life ridiculing and pouring scorn upon the good, noble and tolerant. These malcontents of ignominy, poisoned by the wombs of vile debauchery spawning such miscreants then have the audacity to demand equality and rights whilst in the company of the almost saintly and faithful.

Man deserves no more than he is willing to accord to his fellow man, in his vain conceit, smug knowledge that good rarely react with the same verbose vitriol that he/she themselves dispense with such copious measure they launch hypocritical tirades against the pillars and light bearers of a struggling displaced society. These hounds of hell demand, for their governments their media nurturing has taught them all men have rights, equal rights no matter the disparity of virtue and good deeds done, equality for the sake of equality always at the expense of the good who suffer the vile inconsistent negativity of such vile contingents with such courtesy and moral purpose. The enduring lie and falsehood the evil retains to prosper its own ilk. To each man what he sows, he who sows with love and virtue be respected, they who rant verbiage to affront the sensibilities of the tolerant should be meted with a dose of their own poison. All in the cause of their so favoured ‘’equality’’***.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 7, 2008)

Singh said:


> Your post is an opinion, what the Gurus have said is not an opinion.


:rofl!!:

I dont think the Gurus would support your concept of equality.


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 7, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> :rofl!!:
> 
> I dont think the Gurus would support your concept of equality.


 
Your also entitled to your "i thinks," thanks for your opinion.

Have a great day bowing to sinister, I mean idol.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 7, 2008)

Singh said:


> Your also entitled to your "i thinks," thanks for your opinion.
> 
> Have a great day bowing to sinister, I mean idol.


I think even Guru ji's are entitled to their opinion. 

Have a great day! May Akal shed some light on your soul.


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## Archived_Member4 (Dec 7, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> I think even Guru ji's are entitled to their opinion.
> 
> Have a great day! May Akal shed some light on your soul.


 
Guru ji always keeps me in Chardikala, but thanks for the concern


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## pk70 (Dec 7, 2008)

*( Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji  262)*
*ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ **॥ 
**Āḏ gur▫e namah. 
**I bow to the Primal Guru. 
**ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ **॥ 
**Jugāḏ gur▫e namah. 
**I bow to the Guru of the ages. 

**ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ **॥ 
**Saṯgur▫e namah. 
**I bow to the True Guru. 
**ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ **॥**੧**॥ 
**Sarī gurḏev▫e namah. ||1|| 
**I bow to the Great, Divine Guru. ||1|*
*
*


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## Astroboy (Dec 8, 2008)

ਸਲੋਕੁ  ॥ 
सलोकु ॥ 
Salok. 
Shalok: 

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਮਾਤਾ  ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਪਿਤਾ  ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਸੁਆਮੀ  ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰਾ  ॥ 
गुरदेव माता गुरदेव पिता गुरदेव सुआमी परमेसुरा ॥ 
Gurḏev māṯā gurḏev piṯā gurḏev su▫āmī parmesurā. 
The Divine Guru is our mother, the Divine Guru is our father; the Divine Guru is our Lord and Master, the Transcendent Lord. 

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਸਖਾ  ਅਗਿਆਨ  ਭੰਜਨੁ  ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਬੰਧਿਪ  ਸਹੋਦਰਾ  ॥ 
गुरदेव सखा अगिआन भंजनु गुरदेव बंधिप सहोदरा ॥ 
Gurḏev sakẖā agi▫ān bẖanjan gurḏev banḏẖip sahoḏarā. 
The Divine Guru is my companion, the Destroyer of ignorance; the Divine Guru is my relative and brother. 

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਦਾਤਾ  ਹਰਿ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਉਪਦੇਸੈ  ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਮੰਤੁ  ਨਿਰੋਧਰਾ  ॥ 
गुरदेव दाता हरि नामु उपदेसै गुरदेव मंतु निरोधरा ॥ 
Gurḏev ḏāṯā har nām upḏesai gurḏev manṯ niroḏẖarā. 
The Divine Guru is the Giver, the Teacher of the Lord's Name. The Divine Guru is the Mantra which never fails. 

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਸਾਂਤਿ  ਸਤਿ  ਬੁਧਿ  ਮੂਰਤਿ  ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਪਾਰਸ  ਪਰਸ  ਪਰਾ  ॥ 
गुरदेव सांति सति बुधि मूरति गुरदेव पारस परस परा ॥ 
Gurḏev sāŉṯ saṯ buḏẖ mūraṯ gurḏev pāras paras parā. 
The Divine Guru is the image of peace, truth and wisdom. The Divine Guru is the Philosopher's Stone - touching it, one is transformed. 

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਤੀਰਥੁ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ  ਸਰੋਵਰੁ  ਗੁਰ  ਗਿਆਨ  ਮਜਨੁ  ਅਪਰੰਪਰਾ  ॥ 
गुरदेव तीरथु अम्रित सरोवरु गुर गिआन मजनु अपर्मपरा ॥ 
Gurḏev ṯirath amriṯ sarovar gur gi▫ān majan apramparā. 
The Divine Guru is the sacred shrine of pilgrimage, and the pool of divine nectar; bathing in the Guru's wisdom, one experiences the Infinite. 

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਕਰਤਾ  ਸਭਿ  ਪਾਪ  ਹਰਤਾ  ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਪਤਿਤ  ਪਵਿਤ  ਕਰਾ  ॥ 
गुरदेव करता सभि पाप हरता गुरदेव पतित पवित करा ॥ 
Gurḏev karṯā sabẖ pāp harṯā gurḏev paṯiṯ paviṯ karā. 
The Divine Guru is the Creator, and the Destroyer of all sins; the Divine Guru is the Purifier of sinners. 

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਆਦਿ  ਜੁਗਾਦਿ  ਜੁਗੁ  ਜੁਗੁ  ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਮੰਤੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਜਪਿ  ਉਧਰਾ  ॥ 
गुरदेव आदि जुगादि जुगु जुगु गुरदेव मंतु हरि जपि उधरा ॥ 
Gurḏev āḏ jugāḏ jug jug gurḏev manṯ har jap uḏẖrā. 
The Divine Guru existed in the very beginning, throughout the ages, in each and every age. The Divine Guru is the Mantra of the Lord's Name; chanting it, one is saved. 

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਸੰਗਤਿ  ਪ੍ਰਭ  ਮੇਲਿ  ਕਰਿ  ਕਿਰਪਾ  ਹਮ  ਮੂੜ  ਪਾਪੀ  ਜਿਤੁ  ਲਗਿ  ਤਰਾ  ॥ 
गुरदेव संगति प्रभ मेलि करि किरपा हम मूड़ पापी जितु लगि तरा ॥ 
Gurḏev sangaṯ parabẖ mel kar kirpā ham mūṛ pāpī jiṯ lag ṯarā. 
O God, please be merciful to me, that I may be with the Divine Guru; I am a foolish sinner, but holding onto Him, I will be carried across. 

ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ  ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ  ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ  ਗੁਰਦੇਵ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਹਰਿ  ਨਮਸਕਰਾ  ॥੧॥ 
गुरदेव सतिगुरु पारब्रहमु परमेसरु गुरदेव नानक हरि नमसकरा ॥१॥ 
Gurḏev saṯgur pārbarahm parmesar gurḏev Nānak har namaskarā. ||1|| 
The Divine Guru is the True Guru, the Supreme Lord God, the Transcendent Lord; Nanak bows in humble reverence to the Lord, the Divine Guru. ||1|| 

ਏਹੁ  ਸਲੋਕੁ  ਆਦਿ  ਅੰਤਿ  ਪੜਣਾ  ॥ 
एहु सलोकु आदि अंति पड़णा ॥ 
Ėhu salok āḏ anṯ paṛ▫ṇā. 
Read this Shalok at the beginning, and at the end. ||


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## Archived_Member5 (Dec 8, 2008)

Prayer, the daily recitation of mool mantra and bani serves to instil in mankind his purpose and meaning of life and living. It is also a reminder to Parmatma and Waheguru, the giver and sustainer of this life force to guide and lead us from the prevailing wickedness, seemingly insurmountable at times. It is a contract between the pure and upright saintly souls who have entrusted and vested their life path to him, and the moral duty of each being to honour their divine parent and uphold Waheguru’s statutes and doctrines.

This matter of bowing, of prostrating oneself to a deity or Guru is a non issue. ‘’What care I if you bow your head, if you bow not in your heart’’. I think it was spoken by Guru Nanak means for what purpose is a person’s repetitive chanting is he has not fidelity and steadfastness to the Waheguru.  Some boast loudly of their good fortune and luck, and voice loudly their prayers, scoff at any who may question them, this is wrong, these scoffers are a hellish breed. 

The concept of obescience, of submission, of bowing is I feel not fully understood, and a tad misinterpreted. One is able to bow in faith to the integrity of the Bani, or one bows mind and heart because one understands its living word, its meaning, comprehends the truths and guidance in each pearl. The heart and mind incline naturally towards such moral and spiritual sustenance. Any matter of bowing does not arise. It is a concern only for the souls who lack faith or lack understanding, one or the either. Without these two essential mindsets persons simply pay lip service to something they neither understand nor hold faith of, probably because it conflicts with the knowledge thrown at them from modernists, atheists and the uncultured vultures of peace and order.  

These types who lack faith or understanding of the fundamental and deep truth and wisdom of scriptures adhere to the thinking that one should sing praises of a God one neither understands of loves, because if he exists you gain heaven, and if he doesn’t you gain the prestige of being affiliated with the saintly, a veritable Eden in itself.  This thinking is baseless and for the aforementioned nouveau educated types who on studying the ants and the grains of sand, cannot require their brains to contemplate matters spiritual and cosmological, a necessity if one seek to attain the ultimate objective of swarg and nirvana that is release from the mortal being and entry into the Supernal Universal Spirit that is Waheguru.


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## Astroboy (Dec 8, 2008)

YouTube - Mera Baid Guru Govinda - Part 1 -My physician is the Guru, the Lord of the Universe


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## spnadmin (Dec 8, 2008)

NamJap ji

Well deserved. Some background from forum member Manbir ji

Gurpreet Kaur is the main organizer and conductor for this Group. She manages the music and compositions and training for the other three members of Gurmat Gian Group. At present the singers are Gurpreet Kaur, Keerat Kaur Japjit Kaur and Jasleen Kaur


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## Saint Soldier (Dec 8, 2008)

Sat shri akal,::



BhagatSingh said:


> I think even Guru ji's are entitled to their opinion.
> 
> Have a great day! May Akal shed some light on your soul.


 
shameful ! disgraceful !  scandalous ! :down:
oh God a sikh talking about his Guru in such a manner I'm truly in the kali age


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## spnadmin (Dec 8, 2008)

sainty ji

Forgive me if I am wrong about this -- But I don't think Bhagat ji was talking about Guruji ~~~ but about Guru ji meaning something, someone else, not Akaal. There is some goofing around again here on the thread.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 8, 2008)

SAINT SOLDIER said:


> Sat shri akal,::
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please point out the shame, disgrace and scandal in my post.

Thank you


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 8, 2008)

aad0002 said:


> sainty ji
> 
> Forgive me if I am wrong about this -- But I don't think Bhagat ji was talking about Guruji ~~~ but about Guru ji meaning something, someone else, not Akaal. There is some goofing around again here on the thread.


Antonia, what do you mean? Please explain.
As for me, I meant what I said and I was serious.


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## spnadmin (Dec 8, 2008)

BhagatSingh said:


> Antonia, what do you mean? Please explain.
> As for me, I meant what I said and I was serious.



Bhagat ji

Sorry then. I misunderstood what you were saying and got it probably all inside out and upside down. Have to retract my comments, sainty ji.


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## dalbirk (Jan 12, 2009)

BhagatSingh said:


> I think even Guru ji's are entitled to their opinion.
> 
> Have a great day! May Akal shed some light on your soul.


 

Well if Bhagat Singh Ji , if u really meant our SIKH GURUS or Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then u r probabely I can only pray for you beacuse you r really trying to say something very awkward . We all Sikhs consider Guru Ji to be REVEALING ETERNAL TRUTHS only . 

*Shabad/Paurhi/Salok* [SIZE=-2]Guru Granth Sahib Page 32[/SIZE]
_ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀਜੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥_ Keertan List | Go Home
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
सिरीरागु महला ३ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 3.
Siree Raag, Third Mehl:
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀਜੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
गुरमुखि क्रिपा करे भगति कीजै बिनु गुर भगति न होई ॥
Gurmukẖ kirpā kare bẖagaṯ kījai bin gur bẖagaṯ na ho▫ī.
By His Grace one becomes Gurmukh, worshipping the Lord with devotion. Without the Guru there is no devotional worship.
ਆਪੈ ਆਪੁ ਮਿਲਾਏ ਬੂਝੈ ਤਾ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੋਈ ॥
आपै आपु मिलाए बूझै ता निरमलु होवै सोई ॥
Āpai āp milā▫e būjẖai ṯā nirmal hovai so▫ī.
Those whom He unites with Himself, understand and become pure.
ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥
हरि जीउ साचा साची बाणी सबदि मिलावा होई ॥१॥
Har jī▫o sācẖā sācẖī baṇī sabaḏ milāvā ho▫ī. ||1||
The Dear Lord is True, and True is the Word of His Bani. Through the Shabad, we merge with Him. ||1||
ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਭਗਤਿਹੀਣੁ ਕਾਹੇ ਜਗਿ ਆਇਆ ॥
भाई रे भगतिहीणु काहे जगि आइआ ॥
Bẖā▫ī re bẖagṯihīṇ kāhe jag ā▫i▫ā.
O Siblings of Destiny: those who lack devotion-why have they even bothered to come into the world?
ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ਨ ਕੀਨੀ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
पूरे गुर की सेव न कीनी बिरथा जनमु गवाइआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Pūre gur kī sev na kīnī birthā janam gavā▫i▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
They do not serve the Perfect Guru; they waste away their lives in vain. ||1||Pause||
ਆਪੇ ਜਗਜੀਵਨੁ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਬਖਸਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥
आपे जगजीवनु सुखदाता आपे बखसि मिलाए ॥
Āpe jagjīvan sukẖ▫ḏāṯa āpe bakẖas milā▫e.
The Lord Himself, the Life of the World, is the Giver of Peace. He Himself forgives, and unites with Himself.
ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਏ ਕਿਆ ਵੇਚਾਰੇ ਕਿਆ ਕੋ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥
जीअ जंत ए किआ वेचारे किआ को आखि सुणाए ॥
Jī▫a janṯ e ki▫ā vecẖāre ki▫ā ko ākẖ suṇā▫e.
So what about all these poor beings and creatures? What can anyone say?
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਇ ਵਡਾਈ ਆਪੇ ਸੇਵ ਕਰਾਏ ॥੨॥
गुरमुखि आपे देइ वडाई आपे सेव कराए ॥२॥
Gurmukẖ āpe ḏe▫e vadā▫ī āpe sev karā▫e. ||2||
He Himself blesses the Gurmukh with glory. He Himself enjoins us to His Service. ||2||
ਦੇਖਿ ਕੁਟੰਬੁ ਮੋਹਿ ਲੋਭਾਣਾ ਚਲਦਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
देखि कुट्मबु मोहि लोभाणा चलदिआ नालि न जाई ॥
Ḏekẖ kutamb mohi lobẖāṇā cẖalḏi▫ā nāl na jā▫ī.
Gazing upon their families, people are lured and trapped by emotional attachment, but none will go along with them in the end.
ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਗੁਣ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਿਸ ਦੀ ਕੀਮ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥
सतगुरु सेवि गुण निधानु पाइआ तिस दी कीम न पाई ॥
Saṯgur sev guṇ niḏẖān pā▫i▫ā ṯis ḏī kīm na pā▫ī.
Serving the True Guru, one finds the Lord, the Treasure of Excellence. His Value cannot be estimated.
ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਖਾ ਮੀਤੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਸਖਾਈ ॥੩॥
हरि प्रभु सखा मीतु प्रभु मेरा अंते होइ सखाई ॥३॥
Har parabẖ sakẖā mīṯ parabẖ merā anṯe ho▫e sakẖā▫ī. ||3||
The Lord God is my Friend and Companion. God shall be my Helper and Support in the end. ||3||
ਆਪਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਚਿਤਿ ਕਹੈ ਕਹਾਏ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਆਪੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
आपणै मनि चिति कहै कहाए बिनु गुर आपु न जाई ॥
Āpṇai man cẖiṯ kahai kahā▫e bin gur āp na jā▫ī.
Within your conscious mind, you may say anything, but without the Guru, selfishness is not removed.
ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਦਾਤਾ ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਹੈ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਈ ॥
हरि जीउ दाता भगति वछलु है करि किरपा मंनि वसाई ॥
Har jī▫o ḏāṯā bẖagaṯ vacẖẖal hai kar kirpā man vasā▫ī.
The Dear Lord is the Giver, the Lover of His devotees. By His Grace, He comes to dwell in the mind.
ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋਭਾ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਦੇਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਦੇ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥੪॥੧੫॥੪੮॥
नानक सोभा सुरति देइ प्रभु आपे गुरमुखि दे वडिआई ॥४॥१५॥४८॥
Nānak sobẖā suraṯ ḏe▫e parabẖ āpe gurmukẖ ḏe vadi▫ā▫ī. ||4||15||48||
O Nanak, by His Grace, He bestows enlightened awareness; God Himself blesses the Gurmukh with glorious greatness. ||4||15||48||


Regarding the Baani to be a direct revelation from God none other than 
Guru Nanak Dev Ji is vouching himself as :

*Shabad/Paurhi/Salok* [SIZE=-2]Guru Granth Sahib Page 722
_ਜੈਸੀ ਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਖਸਮ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤੈਸੜਾ ਕਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥_ Keertan List | Go Home
ਤਿਲੰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
तिलंग महला १ ॥
Ŧilang mėhlā 1.
Tilang, First Mehl:
ਜੈਸੀ ਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਖਸਮ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤੈਸੜਾ ਕਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
जैसी मै आवै खसम की बाणी तैसड़ा करी गिआनु वे लालो ॥
Jaisī mai āvai kẖasam kī baṇī ṯaisṛā karī gi▫ān ve lālo.
As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo.
ਪਾਪ ਕੀ ਜੰਞ ਲੈ ਕਾਬਲਹੁ ਧਾਇਆ ਜੋਰੀ ਮੰਗੈ ਦਾਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
पाप की जंञ लै काबलहु धाइआ जोरी मंगै दानु वे लालो ॥
Pāp kī jañ lai kāblahu ḏẖā▫i▫ā jorī mangai ḏān ve lālo.
Bringing the marriage party of sin, Babar has invaded from Kaabul, demanding our land as his wedding gift, O Lalo.
ਸਰਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਦੁਇ ਛਪਿ ਖਲੋਏ ਕੂੜੁ ਫਿਰੈ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
सरमु धरमु दुइ छपि खलोए कूड़ु फिरै परधानु वे लालो ॥
Saram ḏẖaram ḏu▫e cẖẖap kẖalo▫e kūṛ firai parḏẖān ve lālo.
Modesty and righteousness both have vanished, and falsehood struts around like a leader, O Lalo.
ਕਾਜੀਆ ਬਾਮਣਾ ਕੀ ਗਲ ਥਕੀ ਅਗਦੁ ਪੜੈ ਸੈਤਾਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
काजीआ बामणा की गल थकी अगदु पड़ै सैतानु वे लालो ॥
Kājī▫ā bāmṇā kī gal thakī agaḏ paṛai saiṯān ve lālo.
The Qazis and the Brahmins have lost their roles, and Satan now conducts the marriage rites, O Lalo.
ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨੀਆ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਕਸਟ ਮਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
मुसलमानीआ पड़हि कतेबा कसट महि करहि खुदाइ वे लालो ॥
Musalmānī▫ā paṛėh kaṯebā kasat mėh karahi kẖuḏā▫e ve lālo.
The Muslim women read the Koran, and in their misery, they call upon God, O Lalo.
ਜਾਤਿ ਸਨਾਤੀ ਹੋਰਿ ਹਿਦਵਾਣੀਆ ਏਹਿ ਭੀ ਲੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
जाति सनाती होरि हिदवाणीआ एहि भी लेखै लाइ वे लालो ॥
Jāṯ sanāṯī hor hiḏvāṇī▫ā ehi bẖī lekẖai lā▫e ve lālo.
The Hindu women of high social status, and others of lowly status as well, are put into the same category, O Lalo.
ਖੂਨ ਕੇ ਸੋਹਿਲੇ ਗਾਵੀਅਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਤੁ ਕਾ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਪਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥੧॥
खून के सोहिले गावीअहि नानक रतु का कुंगू पाइ वे लालो ॥१॥
Kẖūn ke sohile gavī▫ah Nānak raṯ kā kungū pā▫e ve lālo. ||1||
The wedding songs of murder are sung, O Nanak, and blood is sprinkled instead of saffron, O Lalo. ||1||
ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੇ ਗੁਣ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਗਾਵੈ ਮਾਸ ਪੁਰੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਖੁ ਮਸੋਲਾ ॥
साहिब के गुण नानकु गावै मास पुरी विचि आखु मसोला ॥
Sāhib ke guṇ Nānak gāvai mās purī vicẖ ākẖ masolā.
Nanak sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord and Master in the city of corpses, and voices this account.
ਜਿਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਵਾਈ ਬੈਠਾ ਵੇਖੈ ਵਖਿ ਇਕੇਲਾ ॥
जिनि उपाई रंगि रवाई बैठा वेखै वखि इकेला ॥
Jin upā▫ī rang ravā▫ī baiṯẖā vekẖai vakẖ ikelā.
The One who created, and attached the mortals to pleasures, sits alone, and watches this.
ਸਚਾ ਸੋ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਚੁ ਤਪਾਵਸੁ ਸਚੜਾ ਨਿਆਉ ਕਰੇਗੁ ਮਸੋਲਾ ॥
सचा सो साहिबु सचु तपावसु सचड़ा निआउ करेगु मसोला ॥
Sacẖā so sāhib sacẖ ṯapāvas sacẖṛā ni▫ā▫o kareg masolā.
The Lord and Master is True, and True is His justice. He issues His Commands according to His judgement.
ਕਾਇਆ ਕਪੜੁ ਟੁਕੁ ਟੁਕੁ ਹੋਸੀ ਹਿਦੁਸਤਾਨੁ ਸਮਾਲਸੀ ਬੋਲਾ ॥
काइआ कपड़ु टुकु टुकु होसी हिदुसतानु समालसी बोला ॥
Kā▫i▫ā kapaṛ tuk tuk hosī hinḏusaṯān samālsī bolā.
The body-fabric will be torn apart into shreds, and then India will remember these words.
ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ ॥
आवनि अठतरै जानि सतानवै होरु भी उठसी मरद का चेला ॥
Āvan aṯẖ▫ṯarai jān saṯānvai hor bẖī uṯẖsī maraḏ kā cẖelā.
Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up.
ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਸਚੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਸੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬੇਲਾ ॥੨॥੩॥੫॥
सच की बाणी नानकु आखै सचु सुणाइसी सच की बेला ॥२॥३॥५॥
Sacẖ kī baṇī Nānak ākẖai sacẖ suṇā▫isī sacẖ kī belā. ||2||3||5||
Nanak speaks the Word of Truth; he proclaims the Truth at this, the right time. ||2||3||5||

[/SIZE]


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 12, 2009)

is "bowing down" a mere formality or is there a deeper meaning to it ?
IN Gurmatt.."matha tek" (bowing down" is NOT a Formality - it really MEANS..I Leave MY Manmatt and take Your GURMATT. The Panj Piyaras  "gave" their heads..we do the same. So a SIKH cannot be "giving" his head to every tom **** and harry - anyway we all have only "1" head..and that belongs to the GURU and GURU ONLY.

2. Its another matter that most "Sikhs" bow down before the GURU....but retain their own Manmatt. That type of bowing can be done to anything..the peepal tree..the fakir samadhee....the Ganesh idol... as it is a mere "formality" only.....no meaning either to the GURU..or the peepal tree...Apradhi doona niveh !! the wrongdoer bows lower than most !! says Gurbani ???? Perhaps thats why we can see "sikhs" bowing all over the place....

3. What is "respect" ?? Is it just lip service....merely bowing..or removing ones hat as in case of the Westerners..as in Church..at funerals..etc. Is "respect"...a desire to genuinely FOLLOW the TEACHINGS....of the one "respected" ?? Gurbani's Namdev states quite bluntly....the Idol is same as the stone step.... those steps people step on their way up the mandir....and the idol sitting inside are the SAME STONE....the Idol maker first holds the idol in his FEET as he fashions it....he steps on it..while making it...the point is an IDOL has NO TEACHINGS....to be followed by the "respecter"...one can bow a few hundred times on each "step" even before entering a mandir..to bow to the idol...its all the same.

4. We "bow" to our parents..grandparents..elders... this is also to show that we FOLLOW their EXAMPLE/TEACHINGS..etc. Sure this can be  a mere "formality"...as they say...Jeeondiah maa baap nu rukhi rotinahin dittee..mareh de moohn shudh desi ghee da dabba !! so lots may be just bowing/touching the feet etc simply out of habit..peer pressure..or just because its done....

So there is bowing.......  Bowing........ BOWing....... BOWING....B^ow~~ing !!!..take your pick !!!

Personally speaking..I BOW to NO ONE except my GURU.   "respect" to others religion/parents etc can be shown in many many other ways....Thus I have no problems going to the mosque..the Mandir..the Buddhist Vihara..the Radha Soami Complex at Beas to see the "MAN"..or to the Church to see the "Son of MAN"..I have been everywhere..BUT Bow only in a GURDWARA where the SGGS is Parkash.:happy:

Gyani jarnail Singh


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## Saint Soldier (Jan 16, 2009)

Sat shri akal,
S.Bhagat singh ji was comparing bowing to idols with that of bowing to elders but to my senses this point is not valid because even elders have knowledge and experience but idols don't have it .So how can you clarify this bhagat ji?


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## Archived_Member5 (Jan 16, 2009)

*Elders are as wise and knowledgeable as their life experience has so blessed and graced. The Bani requires interpretation depending upon our understanding of it as we progress through the stages of understanding, emotional maturity and intellectual integrity. Our elders are as the Bani. When we have supplicated hearts and are submitted in spirit to them a gentle glance and touch of their hand upon our heads as a blessing suffices and speaks greater volumes and words than lengthy preaching and storytelling.*

*Yet when we are angered and have closed our minds and have no wish to hear anything other than a particular truth to break the shackles of anger that encases our mind and will, we do not hear each word wise or ordinate grates upon our nerves because we have no peace of mind and are plagued by anger. *

*Life is a path of aligning the common consensus with the collective will to the greater good. What makes sense today is insufficient tomorrow. What we cannot comprehend or understand at this juncture becomes clearer when are in a positive frame of mind and amenable to the good words of our elders. It takes greatness of spirit to touch the feet of seniors and elders alike, how one can so polluted with egotistical arrogance and vain concept supplicate ad be so gracious. Life is the ability of each to harmonise in synchronicity with all others about us. *

*What are idols who set themselves as greater or symbolic of a glory not apparent to all. Modern day idols are money making minions of the media who requires familiar faces and names to gain the attentions of the public. Those who do not bow and pay obescience to this modern harlot are verily destroyed, as we witness. Man cannot serve two masters, the media bows not to God and any affiliated with it become as the seeds of shitaan.  Bindranwalle was an idol and a Saint because he sought to free his motherland from the clutches of pillagers and oppressive looters. There are none such valiant able to overcome the monstrosity of modern politics and media to accomplish any worthy cause.*


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## Saint Soldier (Jan 16, 2009)

Sat shri akal,



> *Bindranwalle was an idol and a Saint because he sought to free his motherland from the clutches of pillagers and oppressive looters. There are none such valiant able to overcome the monstrosity of modern politics and media to accomplish any worthy cause. *



I have always been confused as to what he was whatever he was against the laws of a sovereign state my motherland and the nation which my generations have served to me he was more of a kind of terrorist than a freedom fighter.:yes:


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## Archived_Member5 (Jan 16, 2009)

Sant Soldier Ji, I rest my case. The biggest present day terrorist is America who itself accuses, hinders other nations fromarming to defend themselves and terrorises all who have independence or are self sufficient. My barely concealed loathing for the mob, rabble or the people is they create their own hell, elect corrupt, ruthless officials into power, side with these powers against any freedom fighter and thereafter spend time lamenting Gods nonexistence or the validity of his tenets. 
 
It is politics. Who is labelled a terrorist and who is given an OBE for services rendered to the state and media is reliant upon who serves the interests of the same said. No matter one persons freedom fighter seeking to gain the same rights for his people and state is the states terrorist, whilst itself breaks all international laws of diplomacy in counter offensives. What will become of this world. I feel God has washed his hands of it, as would I if I were not so bound ...

The people ultimately get what they deserve in the end in a natural law of karma ...


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## Archived_Member4 (Jan 16, 2009)

Saint Soldier said:


> Sat shri akal,
> 
> I have always been confused as to what he was whatever he was against the laws of a sovereign state my motherland and the nation which my generations have served to me he was more of a kind of terrorist than a freedom fighter.:yes:


 
You call Sant ji a terrorist on what accounts?


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## Saint Soldier (Jan 16, 2009)

true jeeti ji someone's terrorist is others freedom fighter like i feel that Tamil tigers in Sri Lanka are freedom fighters


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## Saint Soldier (Jan 16, 2009)

singh ji thats my personal view and i said what i feel Sikhs are happy in India at least we are good as compared to Pakistani non-Muslims why would i like a person who is trying to destroy my mother land.:inca:


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## Archived_Member4 (Jan 16, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> Sant Soldier Ji, I rest my case. The biggest present day terrorist is America who itself accuses, hinders other nations fromarming to defend themselves and terrorises all who have independence or are self sufficient. My barely concealed loathing for the mob, rabble or the people is they create their own hell, elect corrupt, ruthless officials into power, side with these powers against any freedom fighter and thereafter spend time lamenting Gods nonexistence or the validity of his tenets.
> Look at Benazir Bhutto, Pakistani’s have worked diligently to build Pakistan into an economic prospering success yet to create a demand for her services, she and her cohorts purposely fuelled riots and civil unrest in order for her to play saviour and hero. As an American sympathiser and lap dog, she duly got her come-uppance. It is politics. Who is labelled a terrorist and who is given an OBE for services rendered to the state and media is reliant upon who serves the interests of the same said. No matter one persons freedom fighter seeking to gain the same rights for his people and state is the states terrorist, whilst itself breaks all international laws of diplomacy in counter offensives. What will become of this world. I feel God has washed his hands of it, as would I if I were not so bound ...
> 
> The people ultimately get what they deserve in the end in a natural law of karma ...


 

Jeetijohal ji, they don't understand, they can only see what is told in the media, the true source for the truth.

America accused Israeli of genocide, but when America went into Iraq even after UN disallowed them, they went in for no reason but for personal gains.  When its the Americans killing thousands of innocent people destroying there homes its not genocide or mass murder its getting terrorist out.  A man in a suit white collared is a hero because thats the way it is.  Any man that speak out against governments for freedom of speech is a terrorist and must be crushed.  The CIA are doing a wonderful job of covering up Americas crimes.  The irony of all of this is that the American governmnt is getting regular civilians to do there dirty work by just feeding them that certain things need to be done for the future.


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## Archived_Member4 (Jan 16, 2009)

Saint Soldier said:


> singh ji thats my personal view and i said what i feel Sikhs are happy in India at least we are good as compared to Pakistani non-Muslims why would i like a person who is trying to destroy my mother land.:inca:


 
You can feel what you like but what i want to know is you must have been fed this information that Sant ji is a terrorist because of a certain act. Someone just doesn't wake up one morning and say I feel like calling this guy a terrorist so from now on im going to call him a terrorist. You get where im getting at.

Sant ji wasn't trying to destroy India, listen to his speeches he was fighting for the freedom of Sikhs. If he was just a terrorist, then when the attack happened on Harmandar Sahib he would not have stuck around and sacrificed his life. He would have got up and took off and went into hiding. Sant ji took a oath in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and he stuck to his oath.

I went to India 3 years ago and this was my first time going and the things I say out there proved that the government doesn't need to fight against the Sikh shield and sword to shield and sword they have taken up other tactics. The best way to destroy anything is by going into there infrastructure and polluting them from the inside. The US is really good at this by using jackels and economic hitmen. One example of this kind of tactics India has used is alcohol stores in every village and every corner. Making something that is self destructive easily available. Another is using Sikh politicians to convey that the government is doing right. This gives the community comfort that one of there own is sayings its okay. And another stratergy they have used is please the Jatts in Punjab because if you don't please the the majority then you have to face them head on. And they don't want a re-occurs of 1984 when rest of the world is awake now and Sikhs are in the government to voice Sikhs stand.


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## Archived_Member5 (Jan 16, 2009)

Singh Ji, the remainder of the completion of the liberation of the Punjab will be dealt with by the assigned politico’s in the Lok Saba where Sikhs are duly represented. Sikhs tempers flare easily, and we would be greatly loathe to incite any outburst s of violence amongst the Sikhs regarding this topic or any other. Punjab has already sacrificed far too many sons in this cause. The crusade is waged with intelligence, sense and reason. It is a task that should be easily completed given the only hindrances are irate hindu’s holding a grudge. It will be exacted but in a calm and rational manner. I would rather cut off my chi chi finger before I would call Santy Ji a terrorist or any other defamatory term he is amongst the most rational contributors here.

Respectfully ...


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## Archived_Member4 (Jan 16, 2009)

jeetijohal said:


> Singh Ji, the remainder of the completion of the liberation of the Punjab will be dealt with by the assigned politico’s in the Lok Saba where Sikhs are duly represented. Sikhs tempers flare easily, and we would be greatly loathe to incite any outburst s of violence amongst the Sikhs regarding this topic or any other. Punjab has already sacrificed far too many sons in this cause. The crusade is waged with intelligence, sense and reason. It is a task that should be easily completed given the only hindrances are irate hindu’s holding a grudge. It will be exacted but in a calm and rational manner. I would rather cut off my chi chi finger before I would call Santy Ji a terrorist or any other defamatory term he is amongst the most rational contributors here.
> 
> Respectfully ...


 

The liberation of Punjab will not happen anytime soon because you got Punjabs politicians that looking to there benefts only; and you know who I am refering to here.  The man himself has backed away from the front seat and now has his son running his operations.  The blood on these politicians hands are not visible to the naked eye and this gives them the power to continue there destructive ways.  Sant ji stood up to them and they took him out of the picture.

I completely agree Sant ji a terrorist!!!!!!!  I don't know how some can call a Saint a terrorist.


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## Saint Soldier (Jan 17, 2009)

Sat shri akal,
Respected singh ji and jeetijohal ji,

The successful revolutionary is a statesmen,the unsuccessful one a criminal.
--Frich Fromm
I agree to the point that Sant Jarnail singh was a revolutionary and that he never intended to hurt the feelings of India loving Sikhs like me and even that he intended to bring out equal rights for Sikhs but there are several ways to achieve this aim dialogs are the best way look at MD.Jinnah he never picked up a gun and created a nation for his community.why did he chose the battle ground to be the golden temple he wanted Sikhs to assume that Indian government is against Sikhs.The Indian government had full faith in Sikhs right from the formation of free India and this is the reason why Punjabi Sikhs were alloted land in Punjab only this was done by  Nehru Ji,sardar vallabhai patel(non-Sikh) the iron man of India was very interesting character of Indian politics he knew Sikhs(or Sikh majority) can create problem in the future in Punjab and so he wanted Sikhs to be spread through out India from North to south but Nehru ji interrupted and said "we cannot deprive sikhs from their culture we have faith in them let them live in Punjab"  and what did jarnail singh did wasn't that shameful. God


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## Archived_Member5 (Jan 17, 2009)

Santy Ji, Maharajah Ranjit was a leader of such prowess, fortitude, integrity, wisdom, humility and renown that all the surrounding states of the Punjab considered themselves blessed to gain such a King as their leader and Monarch. What could the Gandhi’s give to the Sikhs that was not the Sikhs for the taking? You cannot judge a race by its most abject and worst moment of trial. At that time they were facing great pressure as an influential group to convert to either Islam or Hinduism being the two most powerful religions in that time. When they refused as matter of principle they were brutally murdered. Historians distort history for their own false lies and agenda. At this time in eternity there is mass pressure to convert other followers to boost numbers in the absence of any real substance and philosophy of those religions. Seeks have always desisted and have greater moral courage and character for being able to face so many great tyrannies of the ages and remain as strong and steadfast to their faith as they do today. There are still battles to face as the demagoguery circle of power seeks to break any fortress of the Creators where decency, virtue and values still remain. Life is an ongoing battle for those striving to establish social order, cohesiveness and peace amongst all men. I love India and fight harder than most to preserve Sanskrit, the ruleof the Gita, and the strong moral underlying culture and tradition that makes India a nation rich in heritage. I would not sacrifice Sikhism, its territories, its culture, rule of the Adi Granth, and its strong moral foundationstones in any cause at all. Peace requires creation, and dilgent effort, to do so one must have the single minded courage to face the WaheGuru's and the peoples greatest enemy, the media, state and religion. 

It is time for mankind to mature, progress towards global unity and the One Supreme Power that is Love, Truth, Peace and Light.


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## Archived_Member4 (Jan 23, 2009)

Saint Soldier said:


> Sat shri akal,
> Respected singh ji and jeetijohal ji,
> 
> The successful revolutionary is a statesmen,the unsuccessful one a criminal.
> ...


 


> The successful revolutionary is a statesmen,the unsuccessful one a criminal.
> --Frich Fromm




This quote holds no logic or truth to it in this context.  The partition of India was not successful.  Over a million people were killed because of it.  Does this sound like success to you.  A man of honor always looks in the best interest of all people, just not his own.  Like i said before a man in a suit seems like a hero.  Jinnah called for Pakistan and Hindustan.  Where is the Sikhs in MD Jinnah’s honorable and successful plan.  When told Punjab, including Lahore would go to the Sikhs Jinnah refused it.  Is this the man you hold in high regards.  




> why did he chose the battle ground to be the golden temple he wanted Sikhs to assume that Indian government is against Sikhs


 

Sant Jarnail ji did not choose anything.  The Indian government had many chances to take down Sant Jarnail ji if they wanted too outside of Harmandar Sahib.  Look at the date Gandhi picked.  The Martyrdom of Guru Arjun Dev ji was on May 30, 1606.  And the birth of Guru Hargobind Sahib jis, June 14, 1595.  At this time many Sikhs come to Harmandar Sahib and this is the time Gandhi chose to get Sant Jarnail Singh ji.  To get one man they need an army of tanks and a complete city lockdown?  They arrested him on the accounts of being behind the killing of the Nirankari leader and a Hindu news reporter and now they need an army to take him out.  Plus he was in jail for a month without being charged.  They had the man in custody, but let him go!  Which presents another point, on what accounts were they going after Sant Jarnail ji.  Also why were all the reporters put on a bus and taken out of the city?  Surely not for protection they were willing to stay and only had to fear the Indian army.  Also after the attack why wasn’t anyone allowed in, did the government have to cover something up.  Maybe it was the many many many people they killed and then understating the number.  Or could it have been the cold blooded attack of point blank range of killing innocent Sikhs.  Things don’t add up Saint ji.  Also all the cases that are against the government, but none of them are being processed.  If the government of Indira Gandhi was trutful these cases would be dismissed in a flash.




> The Indian government had full faith in Sikhs right from the formation of free India and this is the reason why Punjabi Sikhs were alloted land in Punjab only this was done by Nehru Ji,sardar vallabhai patel(non-Sikh) the iron man of India was very interesting character of Indian politics he knew Sikhs(or Sikh majority) can create problem in the future in Punjab and so he wanted Sikhs to be spread through out India from North to south but Nehru ji interrupted and said "we cannot deprive sikhs from their culture we have faith in them let them live in Punjab" and what did jarnail singh did wasn't that shameful. God


 
Really Nehru cared about the Sikhs, well then if he cared about the Sikhs then he had this to say about their homeland in 1931. In 1931 on the accommodation of Sikhs in the upcoming independence, Jawahar Lal Nehru said" I wish I could blow away Punjab from India's map"(in a way he did more than half of it)("Perils of a communal Situation' - editorial in Tribune, July 12,1931).

Two years before 1931, Nehru had made this promise to the Sikhs.

"The Congress assures the Sikhs that no solution in any future Constitution will be acceptable to the Congress that does not give them full satisfaction."
(Indian Constitution Documens, Vol. ii, by A.C. Banarjee)

Was this promise kept. NO  I would love to see where you are getting your facts from Saint ji because they are so far from the truth.

Right after the partition of India the relationship of Sikhs and the Indian government was breaking apart because of the lies told by the congress, which Nehru was very much apart of.  Also for your own info look up if Indira Gandhi was the daughter of Nehru; really interesting stuff.  Its irrelevant, but shows who is pruned to telling lies.  And let’s remind everyone of the corrupt government Indira Gandhi was running; it surely says she is trustable.


What did Sant Jarnail Singh ji do that you accuse of him doing?????  You present a conclusion before even given facts about Sant ji.


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## prabhsmart (Feb 24, 2009)

Maskinji Has once said that when he was in Paskistan - sindh with his Guruji for a kirtan darbar organised by the small sikh community, they were approached by Sindh's who requested him to come to there Gurudware. Maskinji's Guru agreed and they started walking toward the Gurudware. on the way there was a mosque and people were offering Namaz. Maskinji's Guru on seeing this bowed towards the Mosque and performed a ardass. Maskinji was angry, he asked his Guruji why he was bewoing at a muslim Mosque. the Guruji's reply was, the first word we read in Guru Granth sahib ji is ek Omkar, so when so many people were offering a prayer to a God, i could see my lord there. I didn't bewoed to Allah, but i bowed to Waheguru, I saw my Guru there.

Veerji, even i go to my friends worship place but i see only my Guru there, I bowed to my Guru.
Its well said by Guru Nanak Devji that A statue is stone untill u don't start seeing ur God there. Same way Guru Granth sahib ji is a Book, untill and unless, we don't have a Full respect and we honour it as our only Guru.

Note: Maskinji's Guru here means the person under whom he studied sikhee, it shouldn't be misunderstood for soming thing else. I don't remembered his name so i have used the word Guru.

WaheGuruji Ka Khalsa WaheGuru Ji Ki Fateh.


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## kawalsin (Feb 24, 2009)

Gur Fateh

Another aspect to it. If you visit a friend's house where an idol is installed and you do not bow before it, are you not hurting your friend's sentiments? Farid ji says (On Ang 1384)

"ਜੇ ਤਉ ਪਿਰੀਆ ਦੀ ਸਿਕ ਹਿਆਉ ਨ ਠਾਹੇ ਕਹੀ ਦਾ"
" If you wish to meet the Lord, do not break anyone's heart."

However, you could show respect without bowing. That should be OK.

Daas 

Kawaljit Singh


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## kawalsin (Feb 24, 2009)

Dear Prabhsmart Ji

Maskin Ji's Guru was Sri Guru Granth sahib Ji and NO human being. And the said episode happened in Mumbai (India) and not in Sindh. Accompnying him was Baba Varyam Singh (If I remember correctly), a highly respected Sikh scholar.

Gur fateh

Kawaljit Singh


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## Archived_Member4 (Mar 11, 2009)

prabhsmart said:


> Maskinji Has once said that when he was in Paskistan - sindh with his Guruji for a kirtan darbar organised by the small sikh community, they were approached by Sindh's who requested him to come to there Gurudware. Maskinji's Guru agreed and they started walking toward the Gurudware. on the way there was a mosque and people were offering Namaz. Maskinji's Guru on seeing this bowed towards the Mosque and performed a ardass. Maskinji was angry, he asked his Guruji why he was bewoing at a muslim Mosque. the Guruji's reply was, the first word we read in Guru Granth sahib ji is ek Omkar, so when so many people were offering a prayer to a God, i could see my lord there. I didn't bewoed to Allah, but i bowed to Waheguru, I saw my Guru there.
> 
> Veerji, even i go to my friends worship place but i see only my Guru there, I bowed to my Guru.
> Its well said by Guru Nanak Devji that A statue is stone untill u don't start seeing ur God there. Same way Guru Granth sahib ji is a Book, untill and unless, we don't have a Full respect and we honour it as our only Guru.
> ...


 
You can't compare Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to a stone. What makes one stone to be worshipped and another not to be worshipped? What makes your stone more value than a regular stone? A stone is a stone, physically they might look different but are the same otherwise. How come you see God in your worshipping stone, but can't see God in the other stone that is of the same value and everything?




GUJRI, PADAS OF NAAM DAYV JEE, FIRST HOUSE: ​ 

ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD. BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:​ 
If You gave me an empire, then what glory would be in it for me? If You made me beg for charity, what would it take away from me? || 1 || Meditate and vibrate upon the Lord, O my mind, and you shall obtain the state of Nirvaanaa. You shall not have to come and go in reincarnation any longer. || 1 || Pause || You created all, and You lead them astray in doubt. They alone understand, unto whom You give understanding. || 2 || Meeting the True Guru, doubt is dispelled. Who else should I worship? I can see no other. || 3 || One stone is lovingly decorated, while another stone is walked upon. If one is a god, then the other must also be a god. Says Naam Dayv, I serve the Lord. || 4 || 1 || ang 525

Please read Gurbani on worshipping a stone.


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## prabhsmart (Mar 12, 2009)

Hey by no means i am favoring idol worship, i am against it also. What i am saying is respect ever God, we don't worship them, but if we say that all Gods are one, then we should atleast respect them.


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## pk70 (Mar 12, 2009)

*How we can respect God by showing respect to idols?
I want to see a single Guru Vaak that supports this strange philosophy of new Sikhism!* *Amazing !* *Amazing* !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## prabhsmart (Mar 12, 2009)

I repaet i am not favoring idol worship. if i invite a friend at my place and he visits my home gurudware, i would like him to atleast pretend to repect my lord, same way if i visit a friends house, i must respect his God.
As for ur information i never visit any temples or chuches, or masjid. i don't even know how the church and masjid would look like from inside.


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## pk70 (Mar 12, 2009)

*Well being not in favor of idol worshiping, you respect idols because your friends who are not Sikhs respect Gurdawara and you feel you should do the same. That is your choice, I am not commenting on that; however, here is your suggestion in your own words*
*“What i am saying is respect ever God, we don't worship them, but if we say that all Gods are one, then we should at least respect them(.quote prabhsmart) *
*Here you are using the word “should” and “one God” What  ever you do personally, its none of our business but when you say “should” obviously you are suggesting others too to do so. Gurbani doesn’t support us on this.*
*Like you, I went with my friends to their **Temple** as we were on a tour, I always stood out side when they paid respect to their revered Idols in the **Temple**. I never invited them to come to Gurdawara, if they come; I never expect any respect from them for Gurdawara or Sree Guru Granth Sahib because I understand it is not their faith.*


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## Joginder Singh Foley (Dec 5, 2009)

Just out of curiousity are you refering to only hindu temples or to all places of worship of all religions as i am curious as to how we as sikhs should behave in places like churches, synagoges, mosques etc ????

:happysingh:


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## AusDesi (Dec 5, 2009)

If you have a dilemma in what to do at a temple, simply don't go.


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## Mai Harinder Kaur (Dec 17, 2009)

I cannot comment on the validity of other religions except to say that Guru ji calls those he calls.  Anyone not called to be Sikh needs to be devoted to whatever religion or belief system they feel called.  Not everyone is cut out to be a Sikh in this life.

As for bowing down to idols, I do not.    I bow only to SGGS ji.  All my friends know I am Sikh.  They know what seems to them my peculiarities as a Sikh.  When in a Catholic church or anywhere else, I do not kneel or genuflect.  When in a mandir or anywhere else, I show neither respect nor disrespect to idols.  

When I am in a culture, such as the Japanese, where a bow in greeting shows respect in a secular context to the other person, I do not hesitate to bow.  However, that bow is the same to everyone whether begger or Emperor.

I refuse to argue about other religions.  Such argument is fruitless and probably sinful.  What right have I to try to undermine anyone else's faith?  (Yes, this includes even my born-again-spirit-filled Christian medical caregiver who is ever trying to convert me.    In fact, this especially includes even my born-again-spirit-filled Christian medical caregiver who is ever trying to convert me.  This evangelising is part of her religion.  She would feel sinful if she didn't do her best.  When she asks me what about Christianity do I believe erroneous, I tell her that I couldn't say without showing disrespect toward her beliefs and my religion asks me to show respect toward other religions.  This answer seems to satisfy her;  I think she is a bit nervous about what I might say, if I ever told her.)

:ice:


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## spnadmin (Dec 17, 2009)

Great answer Mai ji


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## Taranjeet singh (Dec 17, 2009)

It may be personal question. But when we were in school we were made to visit Churches, Gurudwaras and Temples. We did not know much about faith and religions then. There was no 'sikhism'  in mind. I still have vivid memories of Temples in Dehli esp. 'Birla Mandir'. I do visit the temple and find the same peace that I get while visiting any Gurudwara. 
I do not believe in Dieties or their strength/power but I do not annoy my friend as well.If they accompany me to My Gurudwara I have to reciprocate and that I do lovingly.


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## Admin (Dec 17, 2009)

if you are not interfering with his/her religion and s/he is not intereing with yours then you are living in a perfect harmony... :welcome:


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