# Hazur Sahib Tilak Question?



## Randip Singh (Jan 17, 2009)

YouTube - Hazur sahib jhatka for tilak part1

Don't watch the clip, if you are squeamish, but I was wondering about this ceremony at Hazur Sahib. Is it to commemorate the 10th Master killing Bandha Bahadhurs goat to feed his men?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 17, 2009)

You could be absolutley right s. Randip singh jio....


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## Randip Singh (Jan 18, 2009)

I don't know you see.

One thing I find fascinating about Hazur'y Sikh's is that they are probably about the closest thing we have to how the tenth master practised Sikhism. They have not been corrupted by the "Vaishnavite" influences that have corrupted Sikhs in Punjab. They settled there from the time of the 10th Guru so just carried on his traditions. They have a very strong martial tradition (something many of todays Sikhs are losing). They are away from the politics of Punjab. Caste is not something they seem concerned about.

Maybe we should ALL start to follow the Hazuree Sikh example?:happy:


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## pk70 (Jan 18, 2009)

randip singh said:


> I don't know you see.
> 
> One thing I find fascinating about Hazur'y Sikh's is that they are probably about the closest thing we have to how the tenth master practised Sikhism. *They have not been corrupted by the "Vaishnavite" influences that have corrupted Sikhs in Punjab. They settled there from the time of the 10th Guru so just carried on his tradition*s. They have a very strong martial tradition (something many of todays Sikhs are losing). They are away from the politics of Punjab. Caste is not something they seem concerned about.
> 
> Maybe we should ALL start to follow the Hazuree Sikh example?:happy:



*Randip Singh ji*
*Please give me a few reasons beyond veg/non veg theory that Hazori Sikhs are not corrupt as Sikhs are in other places?*
*Do you think, in that particular place Sikh tradition from Tenth Master was kept where he hardly lived for a few years and where he spent most of his life, tradition has died, how it is possible? How it is possible that only Hazor sahib is the only place that remains intact of other influences? How they have become examples to be followed? To do Jhatka and not believing in Caste system are enough to become a model role for Sikhs? Kindly elaborate with facts if you are serous to consider them models to follow.*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 19, 2009)

Personally I wouldnt have anything to do with anything "Hazooree"......imho they are NOT following Gurmatt as in the SGGS.....far from it. just my own opinion.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 19, 2009)

pk70 said:


> *Randip Singh ji*
> *Please give me a few reasons beyond veg/non veg theory that Hazori Sikhs are not corrupt as Sikhs are in other places?*
> *Do you think, in that particular place Sikh tradition from Tenth Master was kept where he hardly lived for a few years and where he spent most of his life, tradition has died, how it is possible? How it is possible that only Hazor sahib is the only place that remains intact of other influences? How they have become examples to be followed? To do Jhatka and not believing in Caste system are enough to become a model role for Sikhs? Kindly elaborate with facts if you are serous to consider them models to follow.*



Forget the non-veg veg thing...that runs in Punjab.

I am more interested in the Vaishnavite influences that seem predominant in Punjab.

*Hi Gyani ji,*

What is it you find objectionable about the Hazuree Sikh's?


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## Archived_member7 (Jan 19, 2009)

The biggest point is ..Hazoor Sahib has not JATTS  

so No JATT VAAD ...No ego filled Punjabiyat...I have been there and interacted they are simplier..lack Haume...Amritsar Sahib..has vaishnav Pundits...too many wannabe gurus..as we enter the complex...we have a bibi 'instructing' my wife..to cover her head..well..thats what i call in Hinglish as tokofying..tokde rehna ...as if its only them to know all ...


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## Randip Singh (Jan 20, 2009)

rajkhalsa said:


> The biggest point is ..Hazoor Sahib has not JATTS
> 
> so No JATT VAAD ...No ego filled Punjabiyat...I have been there and interacted they are simplier..lack Haume...Amritsar Sahib..has vaishnav Pundits...too many wannabe gurus..as we enter the complex...we have a bibi 'instructing' my wife..to cover her head..well..thats what i call in Hinglish as tokofying..tokde rehna ...as if its only them to know all ...



I must visit this place to see for myself. I am really fascinated by the variations on Sikhi. From 3HO, to Afghani Sikhs to Kala Sikhs in Kenya to Hazuree Sikhs....how diverse.

PS I am sure there were some Jatts with Guru Gobind Singh ji originally, they probably just intermarried and now are all Sikh. You are right about the Punjabiat hangup's though.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 20, 2009)

randip singh jio
gurfateh.

I am not referring to Hazuree SIKHS....i am referring to the type of "Sikhi" practised at Hazir sahib... all those aartees//alias aartaas.... tallis..talls...lighted lamps ghee jyots....monis and weapons tilak with goats blood etc etc.

The Hazuree SIKHS are just as human as anyone else...and I have visited them and their homes..fascinating people


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## Randip Singh (Jan 21, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> randip singh jio
> gurfateh.
> 
> I am not referring to Hazuree SIKHS....i am referring to the type of "Sikhi" practised at Hazir sahib... all those aartees//alias aartaas.... tallis..talls...lighted lamps ghee jyots....monis and weapons tilak with goats blood etc etc.
> ...



I see ....do you think it is a cultural thing or maybe these rituals hark back to the times of the Guru's. Maybe they , by being away from Punjab have in efefct been caught in a time capsule since the time of the 10th Master?


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## harmanpreet singh (Jan 21, 2009)

These ppl s have converted takhat  hazoor sahib into a temple with sacrifices,  aarti with lamps , unusal  practice that only the  jathedar  sahib like a brahmin can go inside a room , he never marry  throughout his life , he will never go out from nanded , they bang bells , put tikaks on forehead , gave you parshad of narial and much  more .....................


Fateh


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## pk70 (Jan 21, 2009)

harmanpreet singh said:


> These ppl s have converted takhat  hazoor sahib into a temple with sacrifices,  aarti with lamps , unusal  practice that only the  jathedar  sahib like a brahmin can go inside a room , he never marry  throughout his life , he will never go out from nanded , they bang bells , put tikaks on forehead , gave you parshad of narial and much  more .....................
> 
> 
> Fateh



*This is also called high jacking of a religion to reduce to a display of Brahmanism- show Guru Nanak worked hard against. Traditions some times are polished to attract to a suicidal mission.* *Hail the new Brahmans in Guru Ghar !!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 21, 2009)

randip singh said:


> I see ....do you think it is a cultural thing or maybe these rituals hark back to the times of the Guru's. Maybe they , by being away from Punjab have in efefct been caught in a time capsule since the time of the 10th Master?


Randip Singh Jio
Gurfateh.

NO I dont think so....remember the same things  ( and maybe even MORE) were prevalent in Punjab...until the SINGH SABHA LEHR and Scholars like Gurmukh Singh Ditt Singh came along to change things. The Harmandar Sahib Amrtisar was chock full of Hindu Idols..Ganehsas and Sarswatis..and shiv lings were all over the place until the Singh Sabha Movement took control of all PUNJAB GURDWARAS.
The two Takhats OUTSIDE PUNJAB..Patna and Hazoor Nanded NEVER came under the Sinmgh Sabha Lehr....thus Sikhs who always wanted a ALL INDIA Gurdwra Act (SGPC) Never got it. These two takhats are under DIRECT Govt Control through Management Boards...while SGPC is limited to Punajb and neighbourign regions that were Undiuvded Punjab earlier (Haryana/Himachal) and the Delhi Gurdwaras have the DGMC which is elected by delhi Sikhs.


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## spnadmin (Jan 21, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Randip Singh Jio
> Gurfateh.
> 
> NO I dont think so....remember the same things  ( and maybe even MORE) were prevalent in Punjab...until the SINGH SABHA LEHR and Scholars like Gurmukh Singh Ditt Singh came along to change things. The Harmandar Sahib Amrtisar was chock full of Hindu Idols..Ganehsas and Sarswatis..and shiv lings were all over the place until the Singh Sabha Movement took control of all PUNJAB GURDWARAS.
> The two Takhats OUTSIDE PUNJAB..Patna and Hazoor Nanded NEVER came under the Sinmgh Sabha Lehr....thus Sikhs who always wanted a ALL INDIA Gurdwra Act (SGPC) Never got it. These two takhats are under DIRECT Govt Control through Management Boards...while SGPC is limited to Punajb and neighbourign regions that were Undiuvded Punjab earlier (Haryana/Himachal) and the Delhi Gurdwaras have the DGMC which is elected by delhi Sikhs.



Gyani ji

I am curious about these historical points. The Delhi Gurdwaras are managed by DGMC. In your opinion, is this a better arrangement? By that I mean -- the stakeholders within Sikhi in the Delhi area have immediate input. Am I understanding the difference as to how and who manages the Gurdwaras correctly?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 21, 2009)

Antonia Jio,
Gurfateh.

"better" or not..its what we have got to live with under the circumstances.
The Singh Sabha Lehr..subsequent liberation of Gurdwaras from the Nirmalas/Udassis Mahants...and restoration of the Sikh Rehat Maryada as per SGGS/Khalsa rather than Brahminical/Hindu ritualism..and creation of the SGPC/Akali Dal were steps in the right direction....BUT sadly stopped far short of the ideal.
The Mahants were there becasue the British wanted the Sikhi/Gurmatt reduced to mere rituals so that the Sikhs would be more plaible/compliant rather than rebel...so when the Kaum forced the British to restore the Gurdwars to Sikhs..the British kept a few things back....1. The SGPC is "elected" by Sikh Voters..BUT the ELECTION PROCESS is under the Central Govt. Thus....the Late Gurcharan Singh Tohra remained SGPC President ofr nearly 20 odd  Years simply because the GOVT refused on one pretext or other to schedule Elections of the SGPC !! Tohra came from a COMMUNIST BACKGROUND....and is the man most responsible for the DEGRADATION in the SGPC today....thus we can see the CENTRAL GOVT..British or Indian...seeks to CONTROL the Sikh Gurdwaras...any which way they can. The Tohra Administration saw the wholesale recruitment of "keshadharee atheists" into all levels opf the Gurdwara Management...also High posts were given to RADHA SOAMIS...who got control of the Sikh reference Library.....several valuable books and manuscripts went missing....over the decades.....even before the Wholesale destruction in 1984.
All the time the SIKH KAUM was strong and steadfast to their SRM/SGGS..the Central Govt fought tooth and nail agaisnt the All India Gurdwara ACT....but NOW after 50 years of relentless undemining....that the situation is REVERSED...FAKE Brahminised Sikhs control virtually all Gurdwaras/Takhats/SGPC is entirely Corrupt....the Centr is bending over backwards to push for the All India Gurdwara ACT.....so as to UNIFORMALLY spread the ROT in each and every Gurdwara Managemnt......NOW its saner sikhs who demand that LOCAL SIKHS control their own Gurdwaras....like in Haryana..Himachal..Delhi..Bombay...and so on so that the entire edifice wont be rotten due to control from a rotten "centre" like the SGPC/ALL INdia SGPC !!
There are voices being rasied in the Diaspora that Foreign Sikhs hwo have no representation in the SGPC and are under no obligation to Indian Laws..should formulate LOCAL Managements as per SRR/SGGS ONLY...and refuse to follow WRONG directions from SGPC/Akal Takhat etc...Thus the American Gurdwara Parbhandak Com..the Pakistan Gurdwara Parbhandak Com.. the Malaysian Gurdwaras Council..etc etc.

The Historical situation is akin to what happened in Christianity around 1500. One faction that is still "Centrally Controlled" is the Catholic Church in Rome....while ALL the Progressive elements broke away and formed their own Churches.

I would hope that the SGPC is REFORMED to its former GLORY..and ALL Gurdwaras WORLWIDE follow its LEAD....BUT if that is  a pipe dream...then its better that "small pockets" of greenery remain and thrive among the Forest Fires sweeping...KOi Haria Boot rahio Ree says Nanak !!


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## Jassi_k (Jan 22, 2009)

Last time I checked there wasn't supposed to be any killing in Gurdwara. Sevadaar are not even allowed to cook meat in their rooms. 

"Don't watch the clip, if you are squeamish, but I was wondering about this ceremony at Hazur Sahib. Is it to commemorate the 10th Master killing Bandha Bahadhurs goat to feed his men?"

Randip Singh Ji, I may not be right but I think 10th Master killed it because they did NOT have anything else to eat at that particular moment. It's quite disturbing to see all this happening in Gurdwara.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 22, 2009)

Jassi_k said:


> Last time I checked there wasn't supposed to be any killing in Gurdwara. Sevadaar are not even allowed to cook meat in their rooms.
> 
> "Don't watch the clip, if you are squeamish, but I was wondering about this ceremony at Hazur Sahib. Is it to commemorate the 10th Master killing Bandha Bahadhurs goat to feed his men?"
> 
> Randip Singh Ji, I may not be right but I think 10th Master killed it because they did NOT have anything else to eat at that particular moment. It's quite disturbing to see all this happening in Gurdwara.



The goat thing I have seen at other Gurudwara's in Punjab too, especially at time of Holla Mohalla and the meat is eaten as Mahaprashad. In anycase that has never been an issue for me.

I am confused about all the other things they do at the Gurudwara's. I am concerened more about the ritualism, and I would like to know more. I have ordered a book http://www.sikhism.us/sikhism-book-...rs-presence-sikhs-hazoor-sahib.html#post92621 maybe that may shed some light on this issue.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 23, 2009)

Randip Singh Ji..
The writer of that book....Nihang Niddar Singh is seen in a You Tube video "gheraoed" by the Nihungs in Hazoor sahib and being forced to write an APOLOGY for mistakes in it...the Panthic weekly highlighted the video earlier. You may Google it as i have deleted the link after watching it. ?? you may be further confused  ??


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## dalsingh (Jan 24, 2009)

Thanks for the post. Fascinating stuff, even if I don't fully understand it myself.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 24, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Randip Singh Ji..
> The writer of that book....Nihang Niddar Singh is seen in a You Tube video "gheraoed" by the Nihungs in Hazoor sahib and being forced to write an APOLOGY for mistakes in it...the Panthic weekly highlighted the video earlier. You may Google it as i have deleted the link after watching it. ?? you may be further confused  ??



If Panthic Weekly are ridiculing Nihang Niddar Singh then the guy must be a Saint !!!! :happy:

In anycase Parmjit Singh had input into it (Sikhs Warriors and Saint's and Siques, Tigers and Thieves ) so it may not be that confusing.


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## spnadmin (Jan 24, 2009)

Randip ji

It is confusing because there are several agendas going on at one time surrounding the book. If the Nihungs, and frankly I can't tell, are Nihungs in Britain, some developments have occurred that are unique, and have made a journey to the US as well. I did not read the book. Based on what I read in the review, it seems that that the content of the book has nothing to do with the content of, not one, but several controversies. Everything has been tangled together. Time will pass and then the threads will be unraveled.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 25, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Randip ji
> 
> It is confusing because there are several agendas going on at one time surrounding the book. If the Nihungs, and frankly I can't tell, are Nihungs in Britain, some developments have occurred that are unique, and have made a journey to the US as well. I did not read the book. Based on what I read in the review, it seems that that the content of the book has nothing to do with the content of, not one, but several controversies. Everything has been tangled together. Time will pass and then the threads will be unraveled.



I think your point on agendas is correct. I have looked a bit more into this Nihang Niddar Singh fellow and he seems to be a martial arts expert, and his goal is to teach all kids martial arts. He is a firm believer that Ghatka comes from Shastarvidya (something I have read too), and is not hostile about Hindu's like some groups like (AKJ , DDT etc).

These last two points have led to what I can only see is a smear campaign against this fellow by sites afiliated to AKJ and DDT )eg Panthic weekly, sikhsangat, waheguroo etc etc).

I am not sure whether the vegetarian controversy comes into this too, but I think the alleged Hindu affiliation is definitely one thing.


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## spnadmin (Jan 25, 2009)

randip ji

You have tuned in to the same  transmissions  that I am wondering about on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. 

Did you ever hear of anyone writing a letter of apology under pressure for errors in a book that has only been in print for several weeks? Did his critics have time to read and assimilate what he wrote before finding "mistakes." And according to my understanding these "errors" were related to rehat and not to the historical content of the book (which was about the history of the Hazur -- only that). This does not add up IMHO. 

Niddar ji is a bigger person than I am -- he apologized.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 26, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> randip ji
> 
> You have tuned in to the same  transmissions  that I am wondering about on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean.
> 
> ...



I have seen the google video now where he "apologised". You are correct, I think people had already reached there conclusion before reaching Hazoor Sahib. I think possibly a few people may have stirred things up for him. I saw another video of the book launch where he says well, he says he apologised just to keep the peace.

Apology under duress?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jan 26, 2009)

According to the same sources (PW/akj/taksal etc) he is Sanatanist....advocate of Sanatan Brahminicla practises..essentially nirmalas, udassis etc.

As things stand today on the Net too..we have to learn to "read between the lines...paragraphs ?? as well..and look "between the Frames.... at "videoed apologies"..
Not everything we "see" is the Truth...


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## spnadmin (Jan 26, 2009)

randip singh said:


> I have seen the google video now where he "apologised". You are correct, I think people had already reached there conclusion before reaching Hazoor Sahib. I think possibly a few people may have stirred things up for him. I saw another video of the book launch where he says well, he says he apologised just to keep the peace.
> 
> Apology under duress?



Randip -- Now with input from another source, respected Gyani Jarnail ji -- Yes, duress. and think about it. Is this event about pressure from a willful group of "young-bloods" who are not addressing the book but instead their subjectively held opinions. This Niddar is someone I want to befriend in a curious way. I read the comment that he loves to teach children -- Could it be that teaching was too much to give up and so he sacrificed his pride in order to continue. Of course this is only my wondering out loud. But, things look sad. Is the opposition happy with the outcome? Does it end here? 

Mailaagar bereh hai bhuyiangaa. Bikh Amrit basahi ik  sangaa: The snakes encircle the sandalwood trees. Poison and nectar dwell  there together (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 525). _( I borrowed this from an article posted on another thread by Gyani Jarnail ji because it *may* explain why Niddar apologized. Maybe Niddar knows how to be graceful even when I do not.)_

Well I have more exploring to do.


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## Archived_member7 (Jan 26, 2009)

I have spoken to UK Jathedar Bhai Niddarsingh ji ...once ..they are good people ..the neo singh sabhia mentality will not want them to survive


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## Randip Singh (Jan 26, 2009)

rajkhalsa said:


> I have spoken to UK Jathedar Bhai Niddarsingh ji ...once ..they are good people ..the neo singh sabhia mentality will not want them to survive



I don't think it's Neo-Singh Sabia but more AKJ/DDT!!


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## Randip Singh (Jan 26, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> According to the same sources (PW/akj/taksal etc) he is Sanatanist....advocate of Sanatan Brahminicla practises..essentially nirmalas, udassis etc.
> 
> As things stand today on the Net too..we have to learn to "read between the lines...paragraphs ?? as well..and look "between the Frames.... at "videoed apologies"..
> Not everything we "see" is the Truth...



I think as a Sikh, I cannot deny that some aspects of Sikhism may have had some Hindu aspects eg Ghatka comes from Shastarvidya (which the monk Boddhidharma Bodhidharma. Zen or Chan meditation was founded by Boddhidharma. studied too). We Sikh's sometimes have a tendency to purge even good influences of Hinduism from our faith. I think this Nihang fellow is just acknowledging those good bits.


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## Randip Singh (Jan 26, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Randip -- Now with input from another source, respected Gyani Jarnail ji -- Yes, duress. and think about it. Is this event about pressure from a willful group of "young-bloods" who are not addressing the book but instead their subjectively held opinions. This Niddar is someone I want to befriend in a curious way. I read the comment that he loves to teach children -- Could it be that teaching was too much to give up and so he sacrificed his pride in order to continue. Of course this is only my wondering out loud. But, things look sad. Is the opposition happy with the outcome? Does it end here?
> 
> Mailaagar bereh hai bhuyiangaa. Bikh Amrit basahi ik  sangaa: The snakes encircle the sandalwood trees. Poison and nectar dwell  there together (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 525). _( I borrowed this from an article posted on another thread by Gyani Jarnail ji because it *may* explain why Niddar apologized. Maybe Niddar knows how to be graceful even when I do not.)_
> 
> Well I have more exploring to do.



I too would like to meet him and just talk, and the quote you have used is excellent. :happy:


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## harneetkaur (May 14, 2009)

hazuri sikhs are not supposed to be called as GURU GOBIND SINGH JI SIKHS ...

ACCD to GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI " DAYA DHARAM KA MOOL HAI "and also panj pyareas mane   Bhai DAYA SINGH JI AND THEN BHAI DHARAM SIGH JI .
while doing such cermony they need to loose daya for goat and there it ends how they could be dharmi.


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## Randip Singh (May 14, 2009)

harneetkaur said:


> hazuri sikhs are not supposed to be called as GURU GOBIND SINGH JI SIKHS ...



Why?




harneetkaur said:


> ACCD to GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI " DAYA DHARAM KA MOOL HAI "and also panj pyareas mane   Bhai DAYA SINGH JI AND THEN BHAI DHARAM SIGH JI .
> while doing such cermony they need to loose daya for goat and there it ends how they could be dharmi.



what do you mean? I don't understand anything you are saying?


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## therebirthofkhalsa (Nov 30, 2009)

Maybe we should just each stop for a moment and think about what is empty ritual and a symbolic rutine.
I believe if the so called ritual is done with the realisation that this ritual wont get you closer to GOD or even earn HIS mercy, then its fine, because it will just become a symbolic meaningful act done as a rutine, to maybe remember and give more importance to such event or situation.


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## Randip Singh (Nov 30, 2009)

therebirthofkhalsa said:


> Maybe we should just each stop for a moment and think about what is empty ritual and a symbolic rutine.
> I believe if the so called ritual is done with the realisation that this ritual wont get you closer to GOD or even earn HIS mercy, then its fine, because it will just become a symbolic meaningful act done as a rutine, to maybe remember and give more importance to such event or situation.



Yes it is an empty ritual, but so it doing "Pakharma around the Guru Granth Sahib", so is cutting Karah with a Kirpan, so is putting the Guru Granth Sahib to bed.....the list is endless. The reason why people have got their Kacharay in a twist over this particular ritual is because the Vaishno influenced Sikhs don't like the fact that Sikhs carry on Jhatka.


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