# Converts To Sikhism?



## Amardeep (Jun 19, 2006)

Sath Shri Akaal Jee.

i am working on this schol project, on people converting from one religion to another. so i would like to know how many people apc. have converted to Sikhism, and from which religion they came from.

there must be some info and numbers on the net aaye???...

are there any converts in here?

Thank you in advance..


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## hps62 (Jun 21, 2006)

This is a strange  question.
How can there be convert to Sikhism.

If you have  read matematics then the  question would be framed as can a subset be part of Set.

To put it  it simply how can a universal religion decide to convert .

If it  does then to whom would it convert to ?

All living things are product of one God who is worshipped by different names.

*koi bole Ram Ram Koi Khudaia , koi seva gosian koi Allahai*

love

hps62  :star:


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## max314 (Jun 21, 2006)

hps62 said:
			
		

> This is a strange  question.
> How can there be convert to Sikhism.
> 
> If you have  read matematics then the  question would be framed as can a subset be part of Set.
> ...




_____________________
_____________________
_____________________


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## Lionchild (Jul 4, 2006)

i converted to sikhi 12 months ago, i used to be JW.

Still have a ways to go...


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## hps62 (Jul 5, 2006)

Dear  brother

Conversion is a foreign word  in Sikh religion.

We are all divine  manifestation of one God  like the  Gias hypotheses.

love

hps 62


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## Ishna (Jul 11, 2006)

Of course the term "convert" can be applied to some Sikhs.  It defines the process of someone who practices religion A ceasing to practice that and instead practicing religion B.

If you can't "convert" from one religion to Sikhism, then either there is no Sikhism or every religion is Sikhism.

I think I understand the meaning of your posts in that no matter the religion, it all boils down to the same one universal creative source.  However what is being worshipped is not the question.

My own response...  I'm between religions.  I was "neo-pagan" for seven years.  I have been learning about Sikhism steadily now for nearly a year, but I would not yet call myself a Sikh at any level except perhaps in my heart.

Good luck with your project Amerdeep!


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## LuluSikh (Mar 26, 2008)

Hi Everyone!

Im just wondering anyone here living in Ireland?
Im from Ireland, am new to sikhism and am feeling very isolated.
I have been working for months and months on the internal aspects of sikhism and am slowly starting the process of bringing the inside, out!
I'm 17 and the only Gurdwara in Ireland is in Dublin 3+ hrs away from me.
My family is catholic and very aprehensive!!

LuluSikh!!


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 26, 2008)

hps62 said:


> Dear  brother
> 
> Conversion is a foreign word  in Sikh religion.
> 
> ...



so are you saying that i was a Sikh when i was an atheist?  or that i'm not Sikh now that i've converted?  your message is confusing. 

i know hindus don't believe anyone can convert, they think you have to be BORN hindu.  then again, they think EVERYONE is born hindu. 

muslims also think everyone is born muslim, so they say "revert" rather than convert.

but as far as i know, all of the early Sikhs (with the exception of Guru Nanak Dev ji) converted from another faith.  why can people not convert today?

perhaps we're defining the word "convert" differently?  i'm not talking in the christian or muslim sense of reaching out and trying to get people to "join".  i mean in the sense that people who did not previously practice the Sikh religion have adopted it by their own personal choice.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Mar 26, 2008)

you can enrol in a class or a university, but till you open your mind to learning, you donot become a student


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 26, 2008)

amarsanghera said:


> you can enrol in a class or a university, but till you open your mind to learning, you donot become a student



this is true...  however the opposite is also true.  you can read all the books in the world, but unless you go to university, you can't graduate.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Mar 26, 2008)

who needs degrees


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 26, 2008)

as with everything else in life, it is best left up to the individual.


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## Astroboy (Mar 26, 2008)

LuluSikh said:


> Hi Everyone!
> 
> Im just wondering anyone here living in Ireland?
> Im from Ireland, am new to sikhism and am feeling very isolated.
> ...


 
LuluSikh Ji,

We have a member named "Sherab" who is about your age (17) and converted to Sikhism. Would be interesting if you guys got talking. Of course, there are many converts who are willing to share their stories as well.


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## spnadmin (Mar 26, 2008)

I have a lot to say, but can't get it organized mentally. There are at least 6 different parts to luluSikh's concern. All have to be tackled differently and nothing happens overnight.

*Second time around with reactions
*I am one of those people who has had a very easy and happy experience as a convert. Each day brings me more deeply in touch with Satgur and the panth. So  I could  write about the road map of my journey - love that Amarsanghera in your signature. And all of the things I have done could become part of someone else's journey too-- if they wanted to try it out. The problem with this is that life circumstances had a lot to do with the key  cross-roads and intersections in my journey: people, location, personal interests, skills, experience, age, and more. So all a person would get from my road-map would be suggestions -- as in try this or try that. I don't see how it could be more than that. 100 personal stories would give a person more ideas but not a lot of direction.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Mar 26, 2008)

Journey ~~~~~

I move just around the corner,
Seeking the truth, trusting my senses,
Seeing beyond what i see today.

Gentle strings, invisible but firm, tug me,
My anticipation grows as i step around,
Only to find that i have another turn in the way.


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## spnadmin (Mar 26, 2008)

Amarsanghera ji

I have told you before - twice - send your poetry to mags to be published. You are very talented.:star:

And you write poems in Punjabi and English. What are you waiting for?


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## futurekaur (Mar 26, 2008)

Hi Lulu,
 I used to live in Ireland but I moved back to the U.S. so I'm sorry not to be able to help you. Are you in University yet? That might be a good time to go foward. I know how religious Catholic Ireland is; there is this belief that you will go to Hell....
but I am from a secular Jewish family and I cannot believe in a loving God who sends people to Hell....Anyone! I prefer the wisdom and all-embracing love of Sikhism.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 26, 2008)

futurekaur said:


> Hi Lulu,
> I used to live in Ireland but I moved back to the U.S. so I'm sorry not to be able to help you. Are you in University yet? That might be a good time to go foward. I know how religious Catholic Ireland is; there is this belief that you will go to Hell....
> but I am from a secular Jewish family and I cannot believe in a loving God who sends people to Hell....Anyone! I prefer the wisdom and all-embracing love of Sikhism.



this is interesting.  i have met so many people who have converted from Judaism to Sikhism.  we've had threads before discussing the similarities between the two...  

has anyone ever tried Belief-o-Matic?   it's a very interesting and educational quiz.  it asks a huge variety of questions and then gives percentage matches for all of the major (and some minor) world religions.   

i've taken it a couple times, just for fun.  Sikhism is always #1 and Reform Judaism is always #2.   i always found that interesting...

ok, sorry for the diversion, sometimes i can't help myself.


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## futurekaur (Mar 26, 2008)

Jasleen, that's really interesting to me and nice to hear. Could you point me to the old threads Or is there a search function I'm missing?
  The internet is really fantastic this way, bringing us together. It certainly has done a lot to spread knowledge, so much material and communication about the sikh religion.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 26, 2008)

this thread has some really interesting discussion and some good articles too...

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/17453-jews-sikhs-how-similar-can-we.html


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## Archived_Member_19 (Mar 27, 2008)

<<Amarsanghera ji

I have told you before - twice - send your poetry to mags to be published. You are very talented.:star:

And you write poems in Punjabi and English. What are you waiting for?>>>

 i can never do something if i intend to do it.

this just comes spontaneously, and if i start trying, i am not sure if i will be able to even write a word 

however, thanks a lot for the encouragement, maybe i will look back on this board and pick up what i wrote....

 why don't you too think about compiling a lot of posts you have been making?


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## S|kH (Mar 27, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> this is interesting.  i have met so many people who have converted from Judaism to Sikhism.  we've had threads before discussing the similarities between the two...
> 
> has anyone ever tried Belief-o-Matic?   it's a very interesting and educational quiz.  it asks a huge variety of questions and then gives percentage matches for all of the major (and some minor) world religions.
> 
> ...




Lol i took the test...#1 Secular Humanism,
#16 Sikhism ... that was pretty fun 


1. 	Secular Humanism (100%)
2. 	Unitarian Universalism (91%)
3. 	Liberal Quakers (80%)
4. 	Theravada Buddhism (80%)
5. 	Nontheist (77%)
6. 	Neo-Pagan (64%)
7. 	Taoism (60%)
8. 	Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (57%)
9. 	Orthodox Quaker (48%)
10. 	New Age (48%)
11. 	Mahayana Buddhism (45%)
12. 	Reform Judaism (38%)
13. 	Jainism (34%)
14. 	Bahá'í Faith (30%)
15. 	Seventh Day Adventist (25%)
16. 	Sikhism (25%)
17. 	Scientology (24%)


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## spnadmin (Mar 27, 2008)

Amarsanghera ji

OK OK OK


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 27, 2008)

S|kH said:


> Lol i took the test...#1 Secular Humanism,
> #16 Sikhism ... that was pretty fun
> 
> 
> ...




it does kind of make you think, doesn't it?  

i took this test before i even knew what sikhism was and it always ranked high for me...  i think it's pretty accurate.   what about you?


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## carolineislands (Mar 27, 2008)

*1. **Liberal Quakers  (100%) **
2. **Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants  (92%) 
**3. **Unitarian Universalism  (90%) **
4. **Orthodox Quaker  (87%) 
**5. **Sikhism  (87%) 
**6. **Mahayana Buddhism  (86%) 
**7. **Reform Judaism  (84%) **
8. **Theravada Buddhism  (82%) **
9. **Taoism  (81%) **
10. **Jainism  (80%) **
11. **Bahá'í Faith  (76%) **
12. **Hinduism  (75%) 
**13. **Neo-Pagan  (74%) **
14. **New Age  (68%) **
15. **Orthodox Judaism  (61%) **
16. **Seventh Day Adventist  (60%) 
**17. **Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant  (57%) 
**18. **Islam  (55%) **
19. **Secular Humanism  (52%) **
20. **Scientology  (46%) 
**21. **Eastern Orthodox  (46%) **
22. **New Thought  (46%) **
23. **Roman Catholic  (46%) 
**24. **Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons)  (43%) **
25. **Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist)  (41%) 
**26. **Nontheist  (27%) **
27. **Jehovah's Witness  (25%) *


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 27, 2008)

1. Mahayana Buddhism (100%) 
2. Neo-Pagan (100%) 
3. Sikhism (99%) 
4. New Age (94%) 
5. Taoism (92%) 
6. Unitarian Universalism (87%) 
7. Liberal Quakers (84%) 
8. Scientology (81%) 
9. New Thought (81%) 
10. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (78%) 
11. Theravada Buddhism (78%) 
12. Hinduism (77%) 
13. Jainism (76%) 
14. Bahá'í Faith (74%) 
15. Orthodox Quaker (70%) 
16. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (66%) 
17. Reform Judaism (63%) 
18. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (59%) 
19. Secular Humanism (59%) 
20. Orthodox Judaism (58%) 
21. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (49%) 
22. Eastern Orthodox (47%) 
23. Islam (47%) 
24. Roman Catholic (47%) 
25. Nontheist (38%) 
26. Seventh Day Adventist (35%) 
27. Jehovah's Witness (22%) 

Lol that was fun. I was afraid for a bit I was going to wind up Shia or something.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 27, 2008)

*1. **Sikhism  (100%) **
2. **Reform Judaism  (77%) 
**3. **Orthodox Judaism  (67%) **
4. **Bahá'í Faith  (65%) **
5. **Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons)  (64%) **
6. **Unitarian Universalism  (61%) **
7. **Jainism  (60%) **
8. **Islam  (59%) **
9. **Scientology  (58%) **
10. **Neo-Pagan  (58%) **
11. **Hinduism  (56%) **
12. **Mahayana Buddhism  (56%) **
13. **Liberal Quakers  (55%) **
14. **Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants  (53%) **
15. **New Thought  (49%) **
16. **New Age  (48%) **
17. **Theravada Buddhism  (48%) **
18. **Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist)  (42%) **
19. **Taoism  (42%) **
20. **Orthodox Quaker  (41%) **
21. **Jehovah's Witness  (40%) **
22. **Eastern Orthodox  (36%) **
23. **Roman Catholic  (36%) **
24. **Secular Humanism  (35%) **
25. **Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant  (31%) **
26. **Seventh Day Adventist  (24%) **
27. **Nontheist  (18%) *


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 27, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> *1. **Liberal Quakers  (100%) **
> 2. **Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants  (92%)
> **3. **Unitarian Universalism  (90%) *




actually, quakers and unitarian universalists are really great choices if you believe in one universal God, are a pacifist, and don't like having "rules". 

i have a friend who is a liberal quaker (they call it the Society of Friends), and she's pretty incredible.


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## spnadmin (Mar 27, 2008)

Harjas ji,

You and I are almost exactly the same. I didn't save my report. But here were the top 3.

1. Neo-pagan (*What is that?*)
2. Sikhism
3. Mahayana Bhuddism

 Roman Catholic was down in the 24 or 25 range, too. And this was my original religion. 

I don't remember the percentages. What is neo-paganism. I did not understand it even after I read about it. Anyone?


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## Astroboy (Mar 27, 2008)

*1. **Unitarian Universalism (100%) *
*2. **Sikhism (97%) *
*3. **Liberal Quakers (92%) *
*4. **Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (86%)*
*5. **Orthodox Quaker (84%) *
*6. **Reform Judaism (80%) *
*7. **Scientology (75%) *
*8. **New Age (73%) *
*9. **Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (71%) *
*10. **Neo-Pagan (69%) *
*11. **New Thought (68%) **12. **Bahá'í Faith (65%) **13. **Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (56%) **14. **Hinduism (55%) **15. **Orthodox Judaism (55%) **16. **Seventh Day Adventist (51%) **17. **Eastern Orthodox (51%) **18. **Islam (51%) **19. **Mahayana Buddhism (51%) **20. **Roman Catholic (51%) **21. **Theravada Buddhism (49%) **22. **Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (48%) **23. **Secular Humanism (48%) **24. **Taoism (39%) **25. **Jainism (34%) **26. **Jehovah's Witness (27%) **27. **Nontheist (26%) *














http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/18396-smileys-and-clipart-you-can-use.html


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## carolineislands (Mar 27, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> actually, quakers and unitarian universalists are really great choices if you believe in one universal God, are a pacifist, and don't like having "rules".


 
Are you trying to get rid of me?  :shifty:


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## Astroboy (Mar 27, 2008)

Who likes rules anyway. Without rules there will always be a traffic jam and you don't even have to clock in and out. Rules are essential. Religion without rules cannot exist. Point to ponder.

Belief O Matic already has a disclaimer. So don't get so worked up. But you can check them (other other paths) out. No harm.


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## futurekaur (Mar 27, 2008)

I think there is a difference between ethical and some rules and having the rest left for you to  ponder and work out - the Sikh way, than hierarchies telling you what to do and to think, and no rules whatsoever.
  I have friends who are Unitarian Universalists, and whilst very nice they go from neo-pagan to neo-Christian.  They don't have any unifying idea.
I like that the Sikh religion is monotheist but not didactic, that the rehit maryada is sensible, meaning not life-denying. And the gurus, very inspiring - to everyone. It's not just a Panjabi thing....


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 27, 2008)

futurekaur said:


> I think there is a difference between ethical and some rules and having the rest left for you to  ponder and work out - the Sikh way, than hierarchies telling you what to do and to think, and no rules whatsoever.
> I have friends who are Unitarian Universalists, and whilst very nice they go from neo-pagan to neo-Christian.  They don't have any unifying idea.
> I like that the Sikh religion is monotheist but not didactic, that the rehit maryada is sensible, meaning not life-denying. And the gurus, very inspiring - to everyone. It's not just a Panjabi thing....




i agree with you 100%.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 27, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> Are you trying to get rid of me?  :shifty:




not at all!  it's just that most of the time, you seem to be upset by or dismissive of the fundamental "code of conduct" in sikhi...  i only meant that if one doesn't feel 100% about their chosen faith, there's nothing wrong in looking elswhere.  i mean no offense by this, it's just what i have picked up from your posts.   i'm sorry if i have misunderstood you.

but sikhi is always open to anyone, so no, i would never try to "get rid" of anyone.  there's a reason Gurdwaras have four doors, and i agree with that philosophy completely.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 27, 2008)

namjap said:


> Belief O Matic already has a disclaimer. So don't get so worked up. But you can check them (other other paths) out. No harm.




agreed.  in fact, i think EVERYONE should learn about other faiths, it will either make their current faith stronger, or help them realize there may be another path.

i hate to think where i'd be right now if i hadn't started investigating as many religions as possible!


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## spnadmin (Mar 27, 2008)

Futurekaur ji

I agree.


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## spnadmin (Mar 27, 2008)

What is neo-paganism?


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## carolineislands (Mar 27, 2008)

jasleen_kaur said:


> not at all! it's just that most of the time, you seem to be upset by or dismissive of the fundamental "code of conduct" in sikhi... i only meant that if one doesn't feel 100% about their chosen faith, there's nothing wrong in looking elswhere. i mean no offense by this, it's just what i have picked up from your posts. i'm sorry if i have misunderstood you.
> 
> but sikhi is always open to anyone, so no, i would never try to "get rid" of anyone. there's a reason Gurdwaras have four doors, and i agree with that philosophy completely.


 
I was just kidding. :u):

As per "code of conduct" -- I'm just reticent about it till I learn more. It might help to understand me to know that I work side by side with the poorest of the poor, literally one of the poorest communities in the western hemisphere... a place where people eat dirt to stave off the pain of hunger. I'm also a field anthropologist. It's hard to be accepted in communities like that if you don't get right down in the trenches with them, which is how I've always gotten accepted. So many times, doctrines and rulebooks are designed to exclude the very people I serve. Not only that, there have been generations of missionaries in and out of these people's lives that came to save them by showing them why they were cursed. These missionaries very rarely sit down and wash clothes with them, share a plate, or anything like that. You wouldn't believe what it does to foster a relationship with someone when you sit down on a rock and start scrubbing clothes with them. And when they're thirsty, pull the thermos out of your bag and ask them, "Wanna drink?"

Nobody has ever treated these people like equals, even though there is a missionary under every rock in these places and has been for longer than most of them can remember. 

Anyhow... sorry to blither on and on. But there are reasons behind my reticence when it comes to anything that seems as though it might distinguish one person above another. Now, I realize you can't avoid it and still live in this world. But I'm touchy about it for a lot of reasons.

I am, however, learning about the background of these "rules" and understand more about why they became necessary, i.e. infiltration and degradation of Sikhi by hindutva etc.. It makes a little more sense now. But I think, like the kirpan girded Khalsa, I am always standing a little bit at attention when it comes to certain things.

I am not allergic to rules though. Although that's kind of funny. The reason I don't like Unitarian Universalists is the same as was mentioned above. They are absolutely TOO loose for me. I mean -- they're nothing really. It just seemed like something for non-religious people to do on Sunday morning. 
But in their defense, they do a lot of peace and justice work and I salute them for that. But still... the service has NO mention of God at ALL. No prayers, nothing. Then a person gets up and gives a lecture about literature or something and they all go home. Naw.... not for me.

As for the getting rid of me thing. I was just giving you a hard time. 

Expect more of that. 

:shifty:


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## carolineislands (Mar 27, 2008)

Neo Paganism is basically a religion that seeks to reclaim the ancient earth traditions of the Pagans... mostly European and Celtic paths.  You know -- Stonehenge, Wicca, all that.  They honor the Moon and Earth and the Goddess in various forms.  There are a lot of various kinds of ceremonies, usually outside in a circle... bow to the 4 directions and sings and dance around with flowers in your hair in the moonlight.  Sometimes they go SKYCLAD!!!  They celebrate the Solstices and Equinoxes and are usually very devoted environmentalists since they consider the Earth sacred.


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## carolineislands (Mar 27, 2008)

FYI:  "Skyclad" = nekkid.


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## spnadmin (Mar 27, 2008)

Does that sound like me? Not!!!


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## carolineislands (Mar 27, 2008)

Maybe it's optional!


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## futurekaur (Mar 27, 2008)

of course our backgrounds affects how we see rules and regulations. It's pretty easy for anyone to see the sense of prohibitions against drinking and smoking. In my case, I find the 'difficult' ones of keeping your hair, kesh, and kirpan to be so appealing.

 When I see a sikh wearing a dastaar I think of him or her as being heroic, someone who would come to a weak person's aid.  It's a responsability ; you cannot hide..

 My Jewish background really admires that. For centuries we were meek , persecuted, and were locked up in ghettos in Europe and what happened - the Holocaust. Modern Israelis are very secular but see the value of martial values and look how they changed. I of course have no special insight into Guru Gobind Singh, but I think he wanted to change how people saw themselves...to make them into strong heroes.

So for me the Sikh religion has both: these strong heroic values and a profound spirituality.

Thanks Aad and Jasleen Kaur for the feedback; it's so helpful.


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## Archived_Member1 (Mar 27, 2008)

carolineislands said:


> I was just kidding. :u):
> 
> As per "code of conduct" -- I'm just reticent about it till I learn more. It might help to understand me to know that I work side by side with the poorest of the poor, literally one of the poorest communities in the western hemisphere... a place where people eat dirt to stave off the pain of hunger. I'm also a field anthropologist. It's hard to be accepted in communities like that if you don't get right down in the trenches with them, which is how I've always gotten accepted. So many times, doctrines and rulebooks are designed to exclude the very people I serve. Not only that, there have been generations of missionaries in and out of these people's lives that came to save them by showing them why they were cursed. These missionaries very rarely sit down and wash clothes with them, share a plate, or anything like that. You wouldn't believe what it does to foster a relationship with someone when you sit down on a rock and start scrubbing clothes with them. And when they're thirsty, pull the thermos out of your bag and ask them, "Wanna drink?"
> 
> ...





the thing is...  the "rules" in sikhi aren't meant to exclude anyone, or put anyone above another.  in fact, there are "rules" against those things.  things like langar, the way prashad is distributed, the old hindu and muslim practices against women are banned, we're not to turn away those seeking shelter or food, we must give to those in need...  the rehat maryada is all about equality and charity.  

i feel like you might have misinterpreted one or two small things and it has tainted the whole idea of maryada for you.  i hope you take an open look at it again, ask questions of you have any concerns...  maybe we can show you it's not so bad, really. 

your line of work is a great opportunity for a Sikh...  you're directly involved with a community in need.  who better to organize charities, encourage educational opportunities, etc?  

most importantly, if you think something in sikhi reminds you of christianity, stop, re-read it, ask questions, and try to look at it from an eastern point of view.  it might clarify things that seem "off".

hope i'm not being too intrusive or anything, i just wanted to offer suggestions based on my observations (which could very well be WAY off.  )


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 27, 2008)

Hmmm... well I came out compatible for neo-pagan and Mahayana Buddhist. But I was thinking that's because I have Native American background, so that I'm harmonious with tribal spirituality which is essentially a nature religion. I suppose this includes the European tribal variants which are Druidism and some form of Wicca.

Lol about skyclad. You know in India some renunciant monks are nagas which basically means naked too.

Still chuckle that Im 99% Sikh and 1% Buddhist and neo-pagan.  So 1% of me will dance with drums I guess.


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## carolineislands (Mar 28, 2008)

Yes, I am backing up and getting more information on context and background before I get back to maryada. 

One thing I admire more and more about Sikhi is how revolutionary the philosophy was in the time it was born and even now. When I really think about the culture of the time and place of Guru Nanak it is just staggering to realize how advanced his ideas were. Just that detail in itself is enough proof for me that his messages were divinely inspired! Think about it... there were Hindus on the one side, and the despicable condition the women lived in... devadasis gang-raped by Hindu priests the minute they got their first period (as young as 8 or 9) while their family and community members sat right outside the temple and feasted to the background music of the girl's screams, then forced into temple prostitution for the rest of their lives. Not to mention all the other barbaric practices going on at that time (some still to day btw). Then on the other hand you have the Mughuls/Muslims stoning and dismembering people and treating women like livestock. Rituals, murders, massacres - etc etc etc.. 

Isn't it amazing that Sikhi was ever established at all?! And then after it was established, all these forces decended on Sikhs, paying for Sikh heads on a stick, raping women, massacres, blaghghg...

It is just amazing to me that in the middle of all that insanity and barbarism, Guru Nanak walked around that huge area bringing this message so stunningly far ahead of it's time. And that Sikhs have carried that message into today. It's mind boggling.

But now that I've read more of the violent background, and am seeing what seems like a constant holocaust against Sikhs from all directions, I better understand Guru Gobind Singh and the reasons Sikhi had to adapt or die. 

On the topic of charities. I actually have developed a charity nonprofit 501(c)(3) and that's the work we do in Haiti. My husband and I do this work together. One of the Punjabi Sikhs I have been corresponding with just sent a donation to the project from the Sikh organization he belongs to. It was very profound to me for some reason. Like things are falling into place.

I am translating the daily Hukamnama to Haitian Creole, and am also going to start translating a Sikh author's work into Creole as well. I hope to have 365 entries of the daily Hukamnama and make it into a daily reading book to take to Haiti with us. There's a beautiful place right on the shore in the poorest part of the village that has a rocky sort of ledge that jutts out into the water where I intend to do amrit vela while watching the sun come up over the Caribbean.

Sometimes my life seems so poetic! 

LOL

Okay time for me to sleep -- I'm getting soppy.

Love yas all!


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## Astroboy (Mar 28, 2008)

futurekaur said:


> I think there is a difference between ethical and some rules and having the rest left for you to ponder and work out - the Sikh way, than hierarchies telling you what to do and to think, and no rules whatsoever.


 

Futurekaur Ji,

I was trying to say exactly this but didn't know how to put it so concisely. :star:


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## Astroboy (Mar 28, 2008)

Here's a video posted by Aad Ji in category : New to Sikhism - showing the genuine hearts at work. 

YouTube - Ishnaan Seva - Cleaning the Gurdwara
YouTube - Ishnaan Seva - Cleaning the Gurdwara (80 Second Time Lapse)


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## Harjas Kaur Khalsa (Mar 28, 2008)

> So many times, *doctrines and rulebooks are designed to exclude the very people I serve.* Not only that, there have been generations of missionaries in and out of these people's lives that came to save them by showing them why they were cursed. These missionaries very rarely sit down and wash clothes with them, share a plate, or anything like that...
> 
> Nobody has ever treated these people like equals, even though there is a missionary under every rock in these places and has been for longer than most of them can remember... But there are reasons behind my reticence when it comes to anything that seems as though it might distinguish one person above another.
> 
> As per "code of conduct" -- I'm just reticent about it till I learn more.


This is what Jasleen Kaur ji is talking about when she writes:



> "Most importantly, if you think something in sikhi reminds you of christianity, stop, re-read it, ask questions, and try to look at it from an eastern point of view. it might clarify things that seem "off"."


 
I will try to answer you questions respectfully ji. Please bear in mind Sikhism is not a religion of conquering colonials who misused the religion for political purposes. So interpreting something negative in Sikhism _because in another tradition_ it was true, is injustice to Sikhism. Doctrines and rulebooks are not what Sikhism is about. And to put _Rehit Maryada_ and _amritdhari khalsa_ in that light is not accurate. Sikhism is not anywhere in the world oppressing people. And having the perception that somehow Sikh religious authority is_ unspiritual_ and contradicting the _spirit of the teachings_ as a rule-bound institution is a false view. A lot of people who are spiritually seeking bring their _spiritual wounds_. There are thousands of years of grievance, pain and, persecution and injustice hidden in those wounds. 

You know, every person in the world has wounds like this, like scars on the soul. I mean, just look at human history. That history is alive in our souls. And spirituality is really, a place to come clean to wash the pain of ages. It is a truth that if you only look at the people on a spiritual path you will be disappointed. Because no one will be able to fulfil your expectation. No one will be able to take away that pain of ages. In fact they will aggravate it! Because you come seeking a cure, and you find these other sick people. And sometimes they make your heart-sickness worse. 

If you are on a spiritual path, and you find yourself getting worse its because you are stirring the pot. That's a good thing. It's a sign that deeply hidden unconscious material is coming up to your awareness, and you can deal with and digest it. But the doctor isn't really other people on the path. The concept, _"I believe in Sikhi but not Sikhism,"_ comes from Christian Reform movements. People say _"I believe in Christ but not Christianity,"_ because they are rejecting the corruptions of the Christian institutions while not rejecting the message of Christ. Christianity as an institutionalized religion has created a lot of social and political disharmony. But how can anyone broadly associate _grievances of injustice_ against the poor and downtrodden and minorities by challenging the authoritative structure of Sikh religion? It's just not applicable. The Sikh religious hierarchy is nowhere in the world in a position to dominate and exploit anyone. It is itself dominated and exploited by the Hindu majority.

We don't have a tradition where someone can say _"I'm into Sikhi but not Sikhism,"_ because such a concept would imply _"I have the Guru without the Guru's teachings."_ And not, _"I have Christ without the religious structure."_ Which I believe it is intending to say, _"I take the good spiritual message but I reject the cruelty of the rule-based religion."_ You can't have Guru without Guru. Sikh religious authority is _based on Guru_. It's not a "_man-made institution" _you can challenge as a Sikh with the implication that you know better because their _only men_ and your valid, individual experience of Guru is thus equal. It's not like that. It doesn't translate.

A person can't take the Christian theological concept of _Sola Scriptora (only by the scriptures)_ and apply it to Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Because the authority of Shabd Guru, is also in the other institutions Guruji passed His Guruship to. In Sikhism, we accept Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the tenth form of living Guru passed transmission of His Light and Word (Shabd Jyot) into the Sikh scripture Adi Granth so that it became the 11th Guru. He also passed Shabad Jyot into the institution of the _Panj Piare_ and _Guru Khalsa Panth_.

No one can impose his own interpretation. Guru Shabad is _Guru's living mind_. It has the power transmitted into it. Gurbani isn't just words. Gurbani is also spiritual energy and living presence. So if anybody tries to make Gurbani conform to their own mind it's manmat. The concept of _interpreting the Bible_ has no validity. If there is any dispute about the Hukam, because when you read Gurbani, Guru speaks to you, and has the _authority of command_... if there is any dispute about Guruji's hukam... you take it to the _Panj Piare_ and the _Guru in the Panj_ settles the dispute about what Guru means. Now there _are_ disputes within the Panth. But like I said, all Panthic groups submit to the authority of the primary Takht, Akal Takht Sahib Ji. And the Panj Piare of Akal Takht Sahib Ji give the Panth _Guruji's hukam_.

The power of Shabad Guru is the very mouth of Guru. To have some concept where you believe, "_My Guru_ speaks to me through _my Bible_ and no one can tell me any different." (No one has said this, it's an artificial quote to establish a point, please no hurt feelings. ) _Individual interpretation_ is just not a Sikh concept. For one thing, it's the Panth's Guru as well as any individual's Guru. Guru doesn't tell an individual person he can do something that doesn't apply to the rest of the Panth. 

When a person becomes amritdhari, they don't have an elevated status. They're not like _special Sikhs_. And if they walk into a room, people are not going to step back and say,_ "Oh, the holy people are here."_ Or that somehow, to combat this tendancy of _pride and self-righteousness_, amritdhari's should REMOVE their distinguishing characteristics and come down to the common denominator of looking like everybody else. This is a huge misunderstanding.

It all goes back to the fundamental question of _"who is a Sikh."_ That definition is being challenged by the _Indian Government_ who wants to make Sikhs into a category of keshdhari Hindus. And it's being challenged by _secularists_ who want to have a definition of Sikh so broad that we don't even have a distinct Sikh religion anymore. 

A Sikh is someone who is a _disciple_ of a Guru. 
(You can't have a student without a teacher. And you can't have a Sikh, shishya, disciple without a Guru-chela relationship). It's not like the whole world is full of Sikhs who don't need any guidance or discipline and follow some interpretation of their own minds. There's a well known saying, _"He who constitutes himself his own disciple is the disciple of a fool."_ So obviously, the first part is shishya, and the second part is Guru. And there exists some relationship between them.

A Sikh is a disciple of _this_ particular Guru. 
(A Sikh belongs to Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji and all His forms who is Satguru. A Sikh is obviously not a devotee of another religion or religious teacher. We don't take hukam from Swami Prabupada or whoever. For us the Bible is not authoritative, for example. Quoting from the Vedas may have some wisdom, but Guru's bani alone is binding on the Guru's Sikhs.)

A Sikh accepts the discipline given by Guru. 
(Amrit* diksha* received from Guru _in the form of Panj Piare_ is initiation into a whole process of coming close to Guru by obeying His instructions. Amrit diksha is the special relationship between disciple and Guru. Through amrit diksha the Sikh receives the Naam, name of God, which is given as Vaheguru Gurmantara. You can't receive Gurmantara just by reading about it. It has to be implanted within you by Guru. It's like shaktipat transmission. It's a your bond, your being enjoined with Guru. And the Naam Gurmantara is the word of Guru's power which is given to cleanse your karams, your grief of ages and open your doors to liberation. 


ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮਾ ਹਉ ਜੀਵਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇ ॥ 
maerae preethamaa ho jeevaa naam dhhiaae ||
O my Beloved, I live by meditating on Your Name.​ 
ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਨਾ ਥੀਐ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
bin naavai jeevan naa thheeai maerae sathigur naam dhrirraae ||1|| rehaao ||
Without Your Name, my life does not even exist. My True Guru has implanted the Naam within me. ||1||Pause||​ 
ਨਾਮੁ ਅਮੋਲਕੁ ਰਤਨੁ ਹੈ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ ॥ 
naam amolak rathan hai poorae sathigur paas ||
The Naam is a Priceless Jewel; it is with the Perfect True Guru.​ 
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੈ ਲਗਿਆ ਕਢਿ ਰਤਨੁ ਦੇਵੈ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥ 
sathigur saevai lagiaa kadt rathan dhaevai paragaas ||
When one is enjoined to serve the True Guru, He brings out this Jewel and bestows this enlightenment.
~SGGS Ji p. 40​ 

Keeping the discipline of Rehit Maryada is _hukam, _command for the initiated. 
To look at the _outer appearance_ of an amritdhari Sikh and impose the Christian scriptural injunctions against self-righteousness and legalistic hypocrisy is to miss the essence of Sikhism completely. Sikhism is a revolution against Brahminism. And apart from creating a caste of superiors and inferiors like Brahmanism, Guru created His very own form in the Khalsa. Quite apart from pride, the lowliest shudra, embracing Guru's path could wear the jura of a yogi, the crown of a king, the sword of a soldier. 

No one sits at special tables in places of honor to be seen of men. But wearing kakkars, keeping rehit, we become (through a very long process and most are not there yet) *Gurmukh*, Guru's own face. So in the Khalsa, people have *darshan* of the Guru. Darshan is a powerful word. It doesn't just mean looking like the Guru. But a kind of transmission is there where *Guru is present in that appearance.* Thats why kakkars are so powerful. It's not just tasels and phylactories to be seen of men and take on holy appearance. But it goes to the concept of Guru Khalsa Panth. The transmission of Jyot is in the Khalsa. It is in the panj kakkars. The Guru Khalsa Panth is the _physical body_ of the Guru.

Instead of being an appearance associated with hypocrisy, condemnation and inequality, *the darshan of Guru's khalsa is a powerful statement of equality and justice.* It's revolutionary, that some ordinary and lowly person can take on the form of Guru, Sacha Patshah, the true Emperor. And this is open to ALL Guru's Sikhs. And this is not in the kakkars individually, but in the panj kakkars. The form of Guru is in the collectivity of kakkars which make a Khalsa appearance. Guru wants that bond of amrit with you. Because it initiates the process of liberation of finding God _within_ which is implied by Gurmukh. Unlike Christianity, God isn't someone else. But in Sikhism God is our very Self. 

There is no shame, no haumai in wearing panj kakkars. It is positive command. There is shame in an amritdhari NOT wearing panj kakkars. Because you have taken off the form Guruji is molding you into. Unlike Christianity which has a real dichotomy between the flesh and the spirit_. _Sikhism is an Indic religion which doesn't make rigid separations between "body" and "soul." Based on Indic traditions, yoga philosophy teaches that man has three bodies - physical, astral and causal. There are Five Levels of Being which are like [SIZE=-1]sheaths enveloping the Self, the Divine Spark.[/SIZE]

So if you are wearing articles of faith on your body, and believe kakkars have an energy vibration of Guruji's presence, you realize energy influences the subtle pranic sheaths of your inner being. So wearing kakkars is putting something _on_ your body which has a resonance _within_ your body, even to influence subtle sheaths of your physical state, your mental state, your emotional state, your devotional state, your energy state. That's why kakkars are NOT to be removed at any time. They're not just outer symbols. They are true, potent energy transmitters that affect the nature of our being. It is part of your connection to Guru. It is part of your energy attunement to Guruji's vibration.

(With respect to Judaism, to which Christianity is very negative, tzitzis and phylactories are not bad. Christianity just rejects all outward articles of faith. And sometimes converts bring this rejection as a carryover of negative associations they have been taught. I was hoping only to address misperceptions.)



> "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
> 
> Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.' ..."Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness." ~Matthew 23:2-7, 23.


 
The amritdhari who keeps rehit by wearing panj kakkars is someone under obedience to the command of his Guru. It has nothing to do with egoistic self-righteousness or the Christian condemnation of legalism. It's a completely different context. This doesn't mean the little drop jiv-atma won't be deluded to think it is the whole ocean sometime. But the khalsa appearance is how every Sikh should look, because every Sikh wants to become Gurmukh which is a transformation of the inner and the outer to become a reflection of the Guru's own face. 

The concept of "spirit and letter of the law," comes from the Pauline scriptures:



> "But now we have been delivered from the *law*, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the *Spirit* and not in the oldness of the *letter*." -Romans 7:5-7


 
The _rules_ of Rehat Maryada are _law, hukam_ of Guru. Because the _spirit_ of Guru is in obedience to His hukam, and in the khalsa form which we take in discipleship. He imparts to us Vaheguru Gurmantara, of which every _letter _vibrates the Name of God into our hairs. So there is nothing about the Khalsa identity which is _letter of the law_ only and not the _spirit_ in which it is given.

~Bhul chak maaf karni ji


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## Astroboy (Mar 28, 2008)

Quoted by *Harjas Kaur Khalsa* 
*No one can impose his own interpretation. Guru Shabad is Guru's living mind. It has the power transmitted into it. Gurbani isn't just words. Gurbani is also spiritual energy and living presence.* 

Powerful words you speak. 
Wah Ji Wah.:star:


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