# Translation By Swarn Singh Bains



## Ishna (Jun 26, 2012)

Gurfatehji

I came across this translation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji:

http://swarnbains.tripod.com/ 

Has anyone else perused this translation?

I haven't had a very close look at it yet but at first glance the translation seems quite unique.

For example, here is paurhi 38 and the concluding shalok of Japji Sahib:
Be stable like a mountain, patience like a goldsmith. Be humble like an anvil; repeat the name of God like the repetition of a hammer. Intent like bellows and repeat the name of God from within, as fire gives heat. Make sincerity a pot; mint your mind with the name of God. That is how divinity is achieved. Blessed by God is the only one who can do this. Nanak says, only with God’s grace you can miss God and enjoy the fruit. ||38|| 
Hymn: Using air as a culture, life has been created by the
reaction of water and earth. The way, day and night begin and end. Same way the whole creation takes birth and dies. Good or bad whatever they do are accounted for in God’s court. Everyone gets the fruit of their deeds, some soon others late. Whoever worked hard to recite the name of God? Nanak says, they have attained salvation and many more have accompanied them.​Is this closer to a word-for-word translation from the original to English than some of the more popular translations?

It is no small task to translate Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji!


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## Luckysingh (Jun 27, 2012)

Ishna ji, a very intersting little discovery here!!!

It's nice to see a slightly different worded version.
I think this author has done very well and has given a simplified translation with more of an essence to it.
It is NOT more closer in terms of word for word as you ask, but from what I have read so far, it does seem of high value.

The problem that you can get with word for word is that it can move away from it's true intended meaning, especially with the many metaphors used.

You may not quite get what I mean, let me explain-

I understand it much better and realise how one can mislead because I've tried and still do attempt translating by myself. You may have seen a few of my attempts at the sukhmani sahib after Ambarsariaji's conclusions and in some other places.
Here, I did as close as a word for word that I possibly could by breaking down sentences to single words. However, the results can end up off track if you are not careful or you don't catch the true meaning or essence early enough. It also took me a long time, for an ashtpadi of 8 lines it could take a few hours very easily. BUT, I must applaud Ambarsaria ji for his very thorough method and careful approach. His results have been outstanding and difficult to fault, in fact, marvelous at times.-

I am not 1st language punjabi, so my vocab and reading skills are very limited and slow- just reading punjabi has been self taught, much after I was 25 years old!!! -so you can imagine!! After having attempts at doing word for word without reference to any teeka, I have learnt and realised just how easy it is to make a shabad apply in the incorrect manner, infact it makes sense to question 'is this what the guru's words meant ?' everytime that one actually proceeds with this task.

With the above mentioned, from what I have read so far, I find it very good to read along with any existing translations on srigranth.org .

FOR EXAMPLE in early japji where mention of the word of guru and some describing is given and mention of mythological figures like shiva, brahma, parvati, vishnu...etc..is 1stly touched upon and mentioned numerous times again throughout but with different contexts.....--Having a look, we can see-----

ਗਾਵੀਐ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਭਾਉ ॥
Gāvī▫ai suṇī▫ai man rakẖī▫ai bẖā▫o.
Sing, and listen, and let your mind be filled with love.

ਦੁਖੁ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਘਰਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਇ ॥
Ḏukẖ parhar sukẖ gẖar lai jā▫e.
Your pain shall be sent far away, and peace shall come to your home.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
Gurmukẖ nāḏaŉ gurmukẖ veḏaŉ gurmukẖ rahi▫ā samā▫ī.
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī.
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
Je ha▫o jāṇā ākẖā nāhī kahṇā kathan na jā▫ī.
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.

ਗੁਰਾ ਇਕ ਦੇਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥
Gurā ik ḏehi bujẖā▫ī.
The Guru has given me this one understanding:

ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੫॥
Sabẖnā jī▫ā kā ik ḏāṯā so mai visar na jā▫ī. ||5||
there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||5||

Now, S.S.Bains sums up the above as-

_Miss and listen His name with intent._
_It will fill you with joy by eliminating sorrows. You can become divine_
_by listening, praying by missing. God is in you. Divinity is achieved by_
_the grace of a guru. People have achieved it. Such as Shiva, Brahma,_
_Parvati etc. Even if I know about God, still I cannot explain, because_
_God is beyond comprehension. Guru has explained one thing clearly._​_There is only one who gives to everyone. I do not forget Him._



So, you can see how looking at both makes the picture a lot more clearer and how easy it is to go off track if we just concentrate on one.
Then after the task of translating, concluding and gaining the essence is done, comes the REAL MAGIC of APPLYING this very Gurmatt personally to Oneself!!!!
This is what makes the Guru Granth Sahib Ji exactly what it is.


Waheguru
Lucky Singh


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## navneetk (Jun 28, 2012)

Ishna ji,
I do not know as to why you are fascinated by the site.The very First Paudi of Japji sahib is incorrectly translated.The slok to38 paudi is not properly translated.It was enough for me to discard this site when we have srigranth.org where almost all possible resources are available.The site is shoddy job done.
Beware!


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## Ishna (Jun 28, 2012)

Navneet ji

Thank you for your concern and warning.  I think it is good practice to approach *all* translations with caution and to always remember that translations will always be influenced by the translators culture, bias and individual understanding.  It is imperitive we all learn Gurmukhi ourselves and learn the meaning of the words and historical context so we can interpret the original for ourselves.

People who are on the road to understanding can sometimes benefit by contrasting translations.  Hence my interest in the site (I wouldn't go as far as calling it a fascination).

I am interested in your interpretation of the first paurhi of Japji Sahib and where you feel it has been translated incorrectly, please.

Also when it comes to calling the translation shoddy, I'm sure Mr Bains Ji put a lot of effort into translating the entire Guru Granth Sahib Ji to the best of his ability.

peacesignkaur


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## Randip Singh (Jun 28, 2012)

Interesting...I'll take a look.


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## Luckysingh (Jun 28, 2012)

We shouldn't write off other peoples very hard put efforts, especially when they are intended for the benefit of others.

 I explained what my first impression was from the few pages I skimmed through.
It is NOT a replacement for the existing translated versions and I never said it was. 

When I compared and contrasted what I had read, I concluded that you can read it in conjunction and not as a replacement. If you do this you may avoid the simple errors that others make when reading the word for word translations.
Classic example, is people that insist the hindu mythological figures are for real and should be accepted and worshipped just because they are repeatedly mentioned in the bani.

I don't like to write off  people's work, especially when they may have made a good effort to divert you away from misintepretations. Also, if I can do something better than the other, only then am I in a position to criticise. Why should I criticise some body's work if I couldn't do it better ??

It's same as watching people on x factor or other contests. If they can sing better than me, I don't **** them off. I may compare them to each other, but I never say he or she is totally crap or ****. There is NOT even a single ounce of gurmat action in that.-It shouldn't be done. 
Same goes for anything else, we are all better in some things more than others and others will be better in other things more than you. If you cannot accept this and would rather play with this fact by slating others, then you are not being gurmat and this is not the true sikh way.

I still haven't had time to check any more of Mr Bains's effort, but if someone can find a huge fault when comparing and contrasting, then by all means post the work for all to see.- as with the little I have seen yet, I didn't come across any.

Again, I think Ishna ji came up with a good discovery to share with all of us. That is what we are here to do.


Waheguru


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## swarn (Dec 23, 2013)

please read the translation of sri guru granth sahib by singh s ahib sant singh khalsa page 1410 vaaraan and vadheek by guru nanak dev jee and then put your remarks expecially bibi navneet kaur


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## Ishna (Dec 23, 2013)

Swarn Singh Bains said:
			
		

> i am swarn singh bains who translated siree guru granth sahib and is mutilated by gyani jarnail singh and navneet kaur. i appreciate your comments and concerns. Anyone who reads someone elses writing and translations has no right to contradict someone elses work. Gyani jee gyani means who has gyan of divine knowledge. it does not come from reading sosmenone elses books but your own. The objection has to come from your soul. the reason for my translation was. page gyani jee maya say ang because it is his ang. i will still say page 1410 vaaraan te vadheek by guru nanak jee. The first translation was done by bhai sahib singh. he put lot of effort into it. it is a philosophy; he also might have left some mistakes in the work. but to my surprise all the translations other than mine copy from his version and add to their translation. it is a dirty translation and i urge naveet kaur especially to read it and let me now. gyani jee if ur soul is clear then you also should read it and let me know. next amrit vela sach nao vadie vichar. it means to me is that when one praises God and contemplates about God that is the sacred time, not get up early in the morning and recite path. There are many others but i want to hear from navneet kaur who seem to have self interest in some other translations or in other words some sort of link. Gyani is a gyani who read panj granthy and passed the gyani exam. I want to discus these matters with the people who want to put dirt on my translation. i am not a divine scholar but a sufi poet. I tried hard but still there will be mistakes in it, because the real meaning is only known to the author. Please come out and let us discus this but only if u have to say something not from someone elses translations which are alla copied from bhai sahib singh. read page 1410.


 
The above post is from the Introducing Myself thread.  My reply follows:

I'm not sure what you mean when you say your translation was 'mutilated' by Gyani Jarnail ji and Navneet ji.  Please keep in mind that Navneet ji made her comments well over a year ago and may not be visiting here anymore to reply.  She can however give her opinion of any translation she comes across, and it will remain as her opinion.

I'm also a little bit confused by your post; are you are Sikh or a Sufi?

I hope you appreciate that this thread wasn't created to put 'dirt' on your translation but to discuss it's uniqueness.  Thank you for your seva, as mentioned already, translating the whole Granth Sahib is a huge effort!


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## swarn (Dec 24, 2013)

a sikh is not a sikh if he is not a sufi. This might perplex the administrator, because he only knows that much.


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## spnadmin (Dec 24, 2013)

Swarn ji,

Ishna has raised all the reactions I would have made myself. So I won't add. However, after some intermittent discussion regarding your comments, here and Introducing Myself, the leaders/admin have one question.

*
Deleted my question, Why be nasty? After reflecting, it occurred to me that it might make a lot of sense. spnadmin*

It is possible to discuss every point you have raised in a calm way. 

Let's reboot the discussion. Why do you equate being a Sikh with being a Sufi? You can go into some detail, and make your point seem more like a discussion of issues and less like a stream of accusations and dares. 

We would also enjoy your insights and ideas you bring to shaping your translations.

btw - take a look at the first post. Gryani Jarnail Singh 'appreciated' what you wrote. There are those here who think you are doing some important work in your translations. Calm down.


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## spnadmin (Dec 24, 2013)

I have Swarn ji read through Page 16 of your translation. My perception of your work is that it is stunningly  beautiful and deeply meaningful.

There might be differences of opinion on the choice of words or expression in going from Punjabi to English. This is purely idiomatic. Perhaps it will be unimportant to anyone who has read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and several different translations of it. 

You have captured thought after thought and light after light as I understand the granth and its message.

Thank you for letting us know about your translation. You have accomplished something that is very significant. Your words belie that amount of thought and motivation that you dedicated to this huge task. I was extremely ill in the months when Ishna ji first started this thread and am now just catching up. I hope I remembered to "appreciate" her sharing this information.

The next step as I have said before is for you to take a pauree and/or a saloka or some verses and explain how you reasoned to your final translation. Everyone would learn from that. Everyone would learn more about the challenges you faced as a translator, and about the concepts in gurbani that led you to translate as you did. Discussion of our insights would make this thread quite inspiring.


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 24, 2013)

Swarn Singh ji thanks for your effort and posts.  It is no trivial task.

Here we are to learn and share so I have taken the mool mantar to share what you have written and what I understand along with Prof. Sahib Singh ji's Punjabi darpan excerpt.





swarn said:


> a sikh is not a sikh if he is not a sufi. This might perplex the administrator, because he only knows that much.


Let us review the following and I have started each line with your word(s) from your translation and indicated my disagreement or difference in understanding.



> *ੴ*​
> Akwl purK ie`k hY​
> 
> *ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥*​ ijs dw nwm 'hoNd vwlw' hY jo isRStI dw rcnhwr hY, jo sB ivc ivAwpk hY, BY qoN rihq hY, vYr-rihq hY, ijs dw srUp kwl qoN pry hY, (Bwv, ijs dw srIr nws-rihq hY), jo jUnW ivc nhIN AwauNdw, ijs dw pRkwS Awpxy Awp qoN hoieAw hY Aqy jo siqgurU dI ikrpw nwl imldw hY[
> ...


In this reflection and review of your translation I also come to note an error of mine in my previous posts.  It is highlighted in the use of word “it” in the following,



> “Known as the eternal being, is the creator of all, present everywhere, without fear, without animosity, is timeless, is not guided by life cycles, is a self creation and is realized through *its* own (God/creator) blessing.”


 I will remove it in my record and future references.

Above in the spirit of mutual learning and sharing and not to denigrate or find faults.  Poetry cannot be translated and everyone will take something slightly different from it no matter how hard we try to be or think alike.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 24, 2013)

I am absolutely flabbergasted to learn that I "mutilated"..??? HOW did i mutilate without writing a single line anywhere...???   I am double flabbergasted to learn that Swaran seems to "know" so much about me..that i am just a person who read Panj granthi and passed exams and that i get up at dawn and read paath only..etc etc..  ALL this when I have not written a single line in this THREAD until this post....wow..  Apologies.


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## spnadmin (Dec 24, 2013)

I am myself still stuck on this point. At first I did not know who the gyani person was who was under the scanner. Then I too went under the scanner on the Sufi matter.

Isn't it better to discuss ideas?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 25, 2013)

Respected persons like Sahib Singh who was in abject poverty from childhood, Manmohan singh etc who accomplished monumental tasks on their own in the days when pen and paper reigned supreme and one had very very LIMITED RESOURCES at their command...and they were so humble as the desert dust...never criticizing any of the earlier "translations" as wrong/rubbish/etc...in FACT they never even mentioned the others..as being inadequate...they simply DREW THEIR OWN LINES..leaving it to us to judge whether the new lines were LONGER...and indeed they are LONGER...

TODAY if there is a REVOLUTION or PARADIGM SHIFT in Gurmatt understanding among SIKHS...if there is a revolt against the centuries stranglehold on Sikh Thought by the Brahminsied sants and Dehdharee gurus and derawaad....its because of Prof sahib Singhs monumental work the DARPAN which shows us our FACE vis a vis the GURU...Prof Sahib Singh's DARPAN  is the MOST QOUTED TEXT today  ..the text that gives the SHIVERS to all those out to brahminise sikhi..subvert sikhi..so much so that even the "enemies" are out to claim sahib singh as their own !!..( following the saying that IF one cnat fight them join them  but continue subverting from within)...
YES Sahib Singh has made a few mistakes..manmohan singh also has made them..BUT not as many as say Sant Singh Khalsa !!..but even then snat singh khalsa also ahs some meit in that he popularised the ENGLISH TEXTS of Gurbani...and the SILENT partner in this INTERNET EXPLOSION is DR THIND who founded the Gurbani FONTS and typed in the entire SGGS..a MONUMENTAL work in its own field...very few even know of the contribution of the FATHER OF GURMUKHI FONTS...DR THIND !!
So lets not be petty and full of Haumai..each poster has his her contribution...HAUMAII reveals itself easily...it s stink comes out no matter how well hidden...One Guy I know..took a CD of Dr Thinds SGGS..and wrote a software program to enable SEARCH/FIND/REPLACE etc on this..and his University gave him a GOLD MEDAL...he never acknowledged that 99% of the WORK was "TYPING THE 1429 pages of SGGS" which he never did himself...so the GOLD MEDAL actually belongs to DR THIND...its like the waiter at the table who "sprinkles" a little bit of salt on a Dish and takes all the credit..and the CHEF in the kitchen gets NOTHING...Apologies.


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## Harry Haller (Dec 25, 2013)

sometimes the artist does not measure up to the image as suggested by the art..


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## mandemeet (Dec 25, 2013)

S  Swarn Singh Bains ji
Wahiguru ji ki fateh!


  I applaud your hard work you put in translating Sri Guru Granth Sahib though I have great difficulty to agree with your interpretation in entirety as you care little about Gurbani Grammar that keeps the interpreters in the parameter of the Gurmat.


  Any criticism you get should not bother you. My relative, rather my mentor, has completed translation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and submitted to SGPC for approval; Bains Sahib ji, the gentleman is totally changed while doing this project. He says that one who fails to take criticism positively also fails in spiritual progression. Gyani Jarnail singh ji is a gem as per my friend’s words. Last night I discussed this thread with him: this is what he said,
 “ I dont know S Swarn Singh Bains ji, but his efforts should be appreciated by all, because it is easy to write a post here and there, but it is difficult to translate 1430 pages”. Regarding Gyani ji, he said, “ Gyani Jarnail singh is my very good friend; he is very humble man; he is really a gem.”


 I felt really bad what you wrote about Gyani ji uncalled for after translating Sri Guru Granth sahib.


  You are right when you say a Sikh should be a sufi that is why in the Mughal court papers, Bhadur Shaw addressed Sri Guru Gobind Singh as “darvesh”. The Sikhs want to learn from Guru Gobind Singh about temporal powers only but not about the sufi-color he showed to his contemporaries.


  Ishna ji and Spdm ji have complimented you in the best way possible; I don’t think you should mind others, who chose to disagree with you. 



  Thanks again for your efforts.
  Regards
  mandemeet


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## swarn (Dec 25, 2013)

Re my previous post.
SGGS is written by the illiterate people. they did not know grammar as well. I am illiterate and i have translated the SGGS for the illiterate. Although grammar was created by Paanini an indian. But Punjab was always under the influence of Persians. Most of SGGS is written by sikh gurus the Punjabis.
 For the grammar scholars. There are two forms of balancing in the east. The Indian and the Arabic. I believe that the SGGS is written in Arabic format which is proved in the balancing of it. If one applies the Indian balancing then the meanings are different than the ones I arrived at. The grammar deals with brain but SGGS writing is the mind game. The literate scholars struggle with the brain not the mind. The proof is; that there is no spiritual writing by the literate scholars. They are very good critics their own way but i want to see if any; particularly a sikh  literate scholar has written any spiritual writing. Let me say this that there may be lot teachings to others. In order to get into SGGS one has to go with the mind not the brain. Anyone can criticize but writing is a whole different ball game. ones writing dictates the sate of mind. Spirituality is the state of mind not the brains. as such  AKATH KATHA NEH BUJHIEH SIMROH HAR KO CHARN. Till one follows that path, he or she can criticize as much as they want but nothing worth while will come out of it. I hope the scholars will forgive my bold statement but i would like the comments. God bless the creation


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 25, 2013)

swarn said:


> Re my previous post.
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written by the illiterate people. they did not know grammar as well.


_Your comments are inappropriate. Only a literate can judge others to be illiterate and by your own statements you classify yourself to be illiterate.The poetry of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji written aligned to complex musical and specific ragas is not the work of illiterates. Your statements are nothing more than defensive which is very unfortunate as you have done good work from little I have read of your translation. _


> I am illiterate and i have translated the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for the illiterate.


_You certainly are not illiterate. You simply are inciting and very proud. This certainly nothing or little to do with Sufism. Sufis speak their mind but their composition reflected very high level of thinking and structured composition._ 

Please provide specific comments to my post about mool mantar as you seem to be missing the essence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in terms creator and creation and getting caught up with naam, chanting, reciting, etc. The same weakness as in great work of Sant Singh ji Khalsa.

Sat Sri Akal


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## spnadmin (Dec 25, 2013)

Ambarsaria ji

Thanks for asking about some of the comment by Swarn ji that I did not understand. I don't see him promoting chanting as found in the translation of Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa, but "meditation" in a different sense. And yes, to translate "naam" as name always causes problems.. No matter on that point, which can be discussed later. There is more to the immediate statement that has me mystified.

Swarn ji

These 2 parts I also do not understand. Would you explain in the specific? Thanks. We can get to the Sufi part later.

I don't know what this means/entails in practical ways:



> For the grammar scholars. There are two forms of balancing in the east. The Indian and the Arabic. I believe that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written in Arabic format which is proved in the balancing of it. If one applies the Indian balancing then the meanings are different than the ones I arrived at.




and this one I do not understand at all




> The grammar deals with brain but Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji writing is the mind game. The literate scholars struggle with the brain not the mind. The proof is; that there is no spiritual writing by the literate scholars.


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## swarn (Dec 25, 2013)

i have hard time finding the posts. i can only find the ones which come on my e  mail. here i will explain the writing balancing etc. question here is if u know about these subjects, then it will be useful note if not then like any other critic will come and ask again. There are four parts to the compositon. 1, writing, 2 kaasad or balancing, 3 composing, 4 singing.
other than the gurbani as the sikhs claim there is no other good composition which has been written, balanced , composed and sung by the same person. The sikh belief is that the seven gurus who wrote sggs knew all and did everything. let me say here when satta and balwand refused to sing in congregation then guru arjun dev je sang himself in simple tunes. Next there were 35 other writers who wrote in sggs their writing is also balanced and composed in all the 30 or 31 classical tunes. does it mean that guru Arjun dev jee did that especially when he himself sang in simple tunes in the congregation. it points out to someone else. next part of balancing is arabic; it implies one starts singing and if there is a short fall for the continuation of the tune it is adjusted by the kaasad. Thatg is how the sggs is being sung from ages on. the indian balancing is the count of lagaan and magraans which i will not go into it. doing so the singing is like the saa re gaama etc. if someone thinks that sggs is ever sung like this then i might be wrong. here I want to say that if u have any underzstanding of this system then we can go further otherwise it is just curiosity. so long brohter.  if u want some spirituality then read my heer sayal either on APNA gurmukhi books or kitaabaan . spiritualy is everywhere even in heer there is spirituality.


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 25, 2013)

[Swarn Singh ji I am losing you with every post you are making_._


swarn said:


> .....
> other than the gurbani _as the sikhs claim there is no other good composition _which has been written, balanced , composed and sung by the same person.


_Your statement as underlined is totally absurd.  Your generalizations are not deserving of your fellow spners.  Let me say, little or none of your conjecture applies to the spners I know at spn._


swarn said:


> _The sikh belief is that the seven gurus who wrote Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji knew all and did everything._


_Where are you picking up such.  It is what can essentially be termed as nonsense._ _I don't know where you grew up and became part of such beliefs that led to your dis-enchantment with Sikhs and such generalizations._


swarn said:


> _if u want some spirituality then read my heer sayal _either on APNA gurmukhi books or kitaabaan . spiritualy is everywhere even in heer there is spirituality.


_Free publicity is not what this forum is about.  Make yourself aware of spn terms of service.  So to be spiritual I need to read your books 

I am so saddened by your posturing.  Please reply specifically to posts as people do want to learn and share and not be spoken down to.

Sat Sri Akal.
_


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## swarn (Dec 25, 2013)

ambarsaria jee. s s a. thank u for ur comments. it is nice to point out the faults of a person otherwise he or she cannot understand. i have a question. have u ever written anything or just criticize?


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## Ishna (Dec 25, 2013)

Swarn Ji, are you going to acknowledge any of the nice things people have had to say about your translation, or are you going to perseverate over the 'criticism' only?

This thread is about much more than criticising your effort and it would be good of you to recognise that.


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## swarn (Dec 25, 2013)

actualy i am not well versed with what is going on. there was one person who asked me about the balancing of the sggs. But there comes a person calling himself as Ambarsaria, who keeps on calling me names , bad things. He is not giving any logic or reasoning but keeps saying, what ever i am writing is nonsense. sorry about that ishna jee if my post has hurt u . i do have difficulty in locating the posts. the administrator puts some of them on my e m ail that is where i get them.


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## Ishna (Dec 25, 2013)

Swarn Ji

Oh okay, maybe you are missing some of the posts from your screen then.  You can try clicking on this link which will take you to the whole thread:  http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-granth-darpan/38719-translation-by-swarn-singh-bains.html 

Ambarsaria Ji has been sharing his understanding of what you've written, and is expressing frustration as you are coming across as somewhat hostile.  I'm sure we'd all enjoy exchanging views and learning together, but I'm put on the defensive when I perceive some of your comments as being somewhat aggressive.

It may be that I'm not understanding your language.  Hopefully with the above link to give you a view of the entire thread, you may see more 'balance' in the thread and engage with us openly.

Gurufateh


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## Ambarsaria (Dec 25, 2013)

Swarn Singh ji I recognize you are new at our forum.  It belongs to all.  I try to be very specific.  I

 started to read your translation.  I requested your clarification on your interpretation/translation of mool matar.  I have slightly different understanding and I stated so and requested you to specifically clarify or correct me.

I want to be corrected as I want to understand better.


swarn said:


> ... But there comes a person calling himself as Ambarsaria, who keeps on calling me names , bad things. He is not giving any logic or reasoning but keeps saying, what ever i am writing is nonsense. ....


I have not called any names  I have responded to your denigrative generalizations and your statements about Guru ji being illiterate who wrote for illiterates.  Sometimes same words can be taken by different people in different ways.

I have no qualms about the proposition that Guru ji wrote for the common man and not some elite like in Sanskrit type compositions in Hinduism.  Guru ji for me adopted a style of teaching and it has nothing to do with illiteracy.  Guru ji never stated that they know all and they even went to great lengths to state that the knowing of all of creator is a pursuit in failure but learning more all the time is noble.

From my vantage point I will challenge generalizations or what I consider to be inappropriate language.  That is how I am and I am willing to accept the rebuttals in kind.

Sat Sri Akal and I will appreciate if you respond in specifics to my post that I remind with the following quick reference,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-...lation-by-swarn-singh-bains-2.html#post194616


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## mandemeet (Dec 25, 2013)

S. Swarn Bains ji. 
Kindly read first your own words


  “Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written by the illiterate people. they did not know grammar as well. I am illiterate and i have translated the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for the illiterate. Although grammar was created by Paanini an indian. But Punjab was always under the influence of Persians. Most of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written by sikh gurus the Punjabis.
For the grammar scholars. There are two forms of balancing in the east. The Indian and the Arabic. I believe that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written in Arabic format which is proved in the balancing of it
  The sikh belief is that the seven gurus who wrote Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji knew all and did everything”. Swarn bains


Now please read what Ambarsaria ji has written


_“Your comments are inappropriate. Only a literate can judge others to be illiterate and by your own statements you classify yourself to be illiterate.The poetry of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji written aligned to complex musical and specific ragas is not the work of illiterates. Your statements are nothing more than defensive which is very unfortunate as you have done good work from little I have read of your translation -. Ambarsaria”_

_Ambarsaria ji is absolutely true. Tragedy is this that you fail to understand how many compact verses are there, which still confuse very fine scholars even today what to speak of you and I. And, you call them illiterate!By the way, who is literate? Only those who go to universities! Amazing. A simple person can see application of grammar in the Gurbani and you think it is only for brains. What kind of reasoning is this! I held high regard for you, but it is slipping away as I go through your posts filled with ego injured behaviour. 
_
_
_
_Ishna ji writes_
  “Swarn Ji, are you going to acknowledge any of the nice things people have had to say about your translation, or are you going to perseverate over the 'criticism' only?
This thread is about much more than criticising your effort and it would be good of you to recognise that –Ishna ji”.  



Ishna ji is trying to wake you up and to pick up positivity instead of feeding your ego, if I am not wrong..
Spnadmn ji have asked you some questions, you dont consider them important, because you are more concerned about your criticism. 
You ask Ambarsaria ji that what he has written; does it mean only that person can put questions to you who wrote a book or so?
I conclude it is time wasting to discuss anything with you; it is not just worth.
Wish you good luck.
Regards
Mandedeep


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 26, 2013)

A certain Prophet is widely acknowledged as "illiterate" 
       ( He was because he didnt write  a single line)
A certain Holy text is written in Arabic..and Balanced the Arabic way 
       (whatever that is )
SUFI element and its importance in being SIKH..

1. Our Guru sahibaans are being termed "illiterate" When they clearly are NOT becasue they WROTE their GURBANI themsleves and also preserved the Gurbani of Bhagats that came before them. An illetrate person cannot write anything.

2. The SGGS has compositions of more than 35 authors from various regions - geographic and lingual, come from various economic backgrounds, castes, etc. YET the entire 1429 Pages of SGGS RHYME as ONE..in total and complete rhythm. ALL the compositors are EK JYOT in multiple human bodies.

3. SUFI....and the assertion that all SIKHS must be SUFI...???


ALL the above "clues" lead and point in a direction in which many Threads have led to in the past...I leave it to the readers of SPN to add 2+2 and see whats the answer. Tread Carefully....all is not what it seems..


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## Harry Haller (Dec 26, 2013)

> a sikh is not a sikh if he is not a sufi. This might perplex the administrator, because he only knows that much.


 
 Someone should have told the first master this, he could have saved so much time and energy and just been a Sufi, makes you wonder why he bothered with something different

How about a Sikh is not a Sikh if he is not an uhmm SIKH?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 26, 2013)

All this 400++ years the SGGS..has remained relatively undisturbed...even the SIKHS themsleves hardly bothered to dig deep into its depths...they were content with wrapping in rumallahs and bowing before the Guru...NOW..its the Age of the Internet..Info EXPLOSION..the SGGS lies "exposed" to various others..and many many among these are curious to know...many are curious to PRY and see IF there are nay "chinks" in the armour so to speak..and find faults..misinterpret..mistranslate..throw wild ideas around..just as Donald Trump long ago translated the SGGS BUT with the MOTIVE of proving it INFERIOR tot he Bible...now a days there are many who seek to prove the SGGS..is this and that...Sikhs must be on their GUARD to thwart such attempts..seek the GURU yourself..so you are strong to face those who seek to IMPOSE their version of the "GURU" on YOU !! To some the GURU is  FOR the illiterate,...BY the Illiterate..OF the Illiterate.... with no grammar, written in Arabic style..and with Sufi colours..and that road leads to..why not turn towards the original..illiterate, Arabic Sufi colored book penned by the original illiterate..
BEST defense is LEARN the GURU YOURSELF..speak to Him one on ONE..on a daily basis...you will find the Guru speaks to YOU..in YOUR Language..at your speed...
:happysingh:


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## swarn (Dec 26, 2013)

s s a to all . thank u for ur concerns. let us discus everything  constructively. ask me what i can help with; please go ahead


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## aristotle (Dec 26, 2013)

Swarn Singh Ji,
Perhaps you could start by addressing the questions raised by Ambarsariya Ji regarding your translation of the Mool Mantar.


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## Harry Haller (Dec 26, 2013)

aristotle said:


> Swarn Singh Ji,
> Perhaps you could start by addressing the questions raised by Ambarsariya Ji regarding your translation of the Mool Mantar.


 
Every question raised, every question answered, every question sidestepped, only adds to the sum total of knowledge that each of us reading can add to our artillery, Swarn Singhji, you have done great seva in your work, huge seva, but that seva is not over yet, the final seva is being able to provide answers to questions, this is not about winning or losing, it is about educating the panth, Hopefully Creator and Creation will bestow upon you the grace to continue educating, continue learning, you are among like minded folk here, we all wish to learn, to share, welcome..


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## spnadmin (Dec 26, 2013)

And please do not ignore my questions, either. I will be waiting.


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## swarn (Dec 26, 2013)

i have no bad feelings for anything. no side stepping but i do not have the questions raised by ambarsaria. so please put the question again and i will try to answer to the best of my ability. what we are talking now on is; that the mind fights the mind to conquor the mind and become divine


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## swarn (Dec 26, 2013)

i have one more question; ei i do not know how to find your posts on spn . instead some how someone is putting it on my e mail and that is not the dcorrect place for me to go to. please guide me amicably so that i can get in line with rest of the devotees.


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## Ishna (Dec 26, 2013)

Swarn Ji

Please start accessing this website directly and not via your email.  Please type www.sikhphilosophy.net into your browser and you will arrive at our main page.

*To Access This Thread*

From the main page, click on the _Guru Granth Darpan_ forum. [Pic 1]
Scroll down a bit until you find this thread, and click on it. [Pic 2]
Scroll through the pages of the thread using the numbers at the top of the thread, very similar to the SikhNet forum where you and I have spoken previously, a long time ago.
*To Stop Posts Going To Your Email*

Click Options, then Edit Options. [Pic 3]
Scroll down to the 'Default Thread Subscription Mode' and choose either 'no email notification' or 'do not subscribe' from the dropdown list. [Pic 4]
Scroll to the very bottom and click 'Save Changes'.


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## swarn (Jan 15, 2014)

i think i found the way to communicate on spn. so if the gentleman who wanted to talk about japu jee sahib please, ask your question and let us discuss it


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## Original (May 5, 2015)

swarn said:


> i think i found the way to communicate on spn. so if the gentleman who wanted to talk about japu jee sahib please, ask your question and let us discuss it



Dear Sir

Interesting remarks, particularly Sufi and your Heer. It'll be beneficial to all if you were to elaborate on Sufism and explain how it is connected to Sikhism because Baba Nanak was inspired by Baba Farid Ji's literature.

Much obliged !

Kind regards


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