# Wrong Translation Of Japuji Sahab By Radhaswami Sect



## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 7, 2009)

Khalsa veer jio,    *ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ **ਜੀ **ਕਾ **ਖਾਲਸਾ **ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ **ਜੀ **ਕੀ **ਫਤਿਹ **ਜੀ || 
*
 I was studing a translation of Japuji Saahab by Dr.T R Shangari, who taught Gurbaani and Sufi kalaam to the students of Punjab UniversityAt DAV College,Jalandhar.(Punjab). Whils translating first Pauri of Japu ji Sahab,"Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !!" 

Being a follwer of Radhaswami sect, by the grace of Guru ji he was not enlightened to translate these lines in its true form. Guruji didn't worship to be able to express actual meanings as he had bifurcated from the path of Sikhism.
This shows what he would have taught his students in his carrier as a Gurbaani teacher. He would have certainly prepared the scholars towards Radhaswami sect but distancesed himself from the blessings of Guru ji(Akal Purakh).
In translation he describes the meanings of 'soch' as passing the stool or human excreta. he further says tHAt the meanings of 'SOCH' SEEMS CONNECTED WITH THE CLEANLINESS OF BODY. 

Though i can assume the meanings but i request all the partcipants of this forum to describe It's meanings themselves and define in detail please.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 7, 2009)

> Khalsa veer jio, *ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ**ਜੀ**ਕਾ**ਖਾਲਸਾ**ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ**ਜੀ**ਕੀ**ਫਤਿਹ**ਜੀ ||
> *
> I was studing a translation of Japuji Saahab by Dr.T R Shangari, who taught Gurbaani and Sufi kalaam to the students of Punjab UniversityAt DAV College,Jalandhar.(Punjab). Whils translating first Pauri of Japu ji Sahab,"Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !!"
> 
> ...


Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Is there any way for you to post his translation of Japji in the forum? Lots of people including Prof. Sahib Singh, Maskeen ji, Yogi Bhajan, Manmoham Singh and others have translated the same pauri in diffferent manners.

It will be interesting to do the comparative studies on it so we can all learn from it.

I have an idea.  Why don't you post Pauri by Pauri, one at a time the translations of Japji from all you know and read about, including this Radasoami's and also share  the same in your own words about your own thought process about the posted Pauri and then rest of us can pitch in? This will be a great way for all of us to understand and do Shabad Vichaar collectively so we can really immerse in the concept of," Mil Sadh Sangat bhaj keval Naam".

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 7, 2009)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fathe....Ajmer Singh Ji...

Maafi Chawanga...(I am sorry to say) that Its Jap baani... or you can say JAPu...but not JAPJI aur JAPUJI... baani.... JI and Sahib...we added as respect....same way we have other baani's...like..Sukmani, Rehraas, Anand, Jaap, Chaupi,.....Sahib and Ji we add as respect......

Bhul Chuk Maaf..........

Chardi Kala........


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 7, 2009)

Veer Tejwant Singh ji, Gur Fateh !!
I have raised the issue here in this forum before you learnered scholars of Guru Granth Sahab ji. Translation of Gurbaani is not so simple for an ordinary person like me. I am able to express myself but translating Gurbaani in English, is an uphill task for me.
Even than by the grace of God, i shall try as you have suggested but before that what he has written, i have passed it on here, for to be viewed by you members.
'Soch' means - he has described "SHAUCH" So you can better under stand if i have stated anything wrong.Kindly suggest.
Sangtan da das.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 7, 2009)

Veerji,    *ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ **ਜੀ **ਕਾ **ਖਾਲਸਾ **ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ **ਜੀ **ਕੀ **ਫਤਿਹ **ਜੀ ||*
I'll take care in future. Thanks.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 7, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fathe....Ajmer Singh Ji...
> 
> Maafi Chawanga...(I am sorry to say) that Its Jap baani... or you can say JAPu...but not JAPJI aur JAPUJI... baani.... JI and Sahib...we added as respect....same way we have other baani's...like..Sukmani, Rehraas, Anand, Jaap, Chaupi,.....Sahib and Ji we add as respect......
> 
> ...



Why?

I see this as nit picking.


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## spnadmin (Jun 7, 2009)

I think AdsKhalsa is stating that '"jap" means chant so jap bani is chant bani.


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 7, 2009)

Veer Randip Singh ji, whom you have addressed  and what do you mean of nit picking ? Please define Thanks 
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 7, 2009)

randip singh said:


> Why?
> 
> I see this as nit picking.




Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

I am saying just write is separately ..not compelling not to write Ji or Sahib..Just because of us it is conveyed wrong to new generation....we not not to change baani... its same way we added Jo with our jaikara...I conveyed whatever is right......believe it or not ..its on individual's own perception... 

Chardi Kala.....


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 7, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> I think AdsKhalsa is stating that '"jap" means chant so jap bani is chant bani.



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa...Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...

Jap is baani...Jaap is also a baani...Sukmani is also a baani....I am not saying to CHANT...but only conveying that there is no baani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib as JAPuJI or JAPJI....

its JAPu...or JAP....there is no JI added....its as per TATKARA (Index) of Sri Guru Granth Sahib... even when JAP Ji Sahib begins ..its only written JAP...or JAPu.....not JAPJI or JAPUJI............

Ji is separate word....no in Sri Guru Granth Sahib...just want to clarify...I believe not to create confusion for members from other religion and our new generation...convey the right things to them.... 

If you heard Shabad..."Rehni Rahey Soyi Sikh Mera "..in that Guru Ji Said..."Padey JAP JAAP"

not JAPJI.... because there is no JAPJI baani...Its JAP (JI SAHIB).....I humbly request .... please don't club these two words while saying and writing.....

I tried my best to convey what I want to...........

Chardi Kala...


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## Randip Singh (Jun 7, 2009)

AdsKhalsa said:


> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh...
> 
> I am saying just write is separately ..not compelling not to write Ji or Sahib..Just because of us it is conveyed wrong to new generation....we not not to change baani... its same way we added Jo with our jaikara...I conveyed whatever is right......believe it or not ..its on individual's own perception...
> 
> Chardi Kala.....



What I am trying to convey is, that comment is taking this topic off topic, for the sake of a typo error. Lets not get distracted. We have enough people trying to distract us without things like this here.

Thanks


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## AdsKhalsa (Jun 7, 2009)

randip singh said:


> What I am trying to convey is, that comment is taking this topic off topic, for the sake of a typo error. Lets not get distracted. We have enough people trying to distract us without things like this here.
> 
> Thanks



Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa..Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Randip Singh Ji...

Maafi chawanga....I have no intension to divert from topic..just want to correct a basic thing...I am a servant of Guru...and thought its my duty....

Sorry, if because of me topic is diverted....

I am ignorant.....sorry ....

Bhul Chuk Maafi........

Chardi Kala.....


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 7, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Veer Tejwant Singh ji, Gur Fateh !!
> I have raised the issue here in this forum before you learnered scholars of Guru Granth Sahab ji. Translation of Gurbaani is not so simple for an ordinary person like me. I am able to express myself but translating Gurbaani in English, is an uphill task for me.
> Even than by the grace of God, i shall try as you have suggested but before that what he has written, i have passed it on here, for to be viewed by you members.
> 'Soch' means - he has described "SHAUCH" So you can better under stand if i have stated anything wrong.Kindly suggest.
> ...


 
Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Can you post the whole pauri that he has translatated? Is it a recording? if it is, it can be uploaded. One can not make anything out with just a word or 2. 

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 7, 2009)

Veer Tejwant Singh ji, 
*ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ **ਜੀ **ਕਾ **ਖਾਲਸਾ **ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ **ਜੀ **ਕੀ **ਫਤਿਹ **ਜੀ ||*
I have quoted from his book written in Punjabi and published by Radhaswami Satsang Beas. i'll paste a photocopy of that page to-day r as soon as i get the chance to do it.
Thanks
Ajmer Singh randhawa


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 8, 2009)

Veer Tejwant Singh ji, I am pasting a photocopy of that page no, 44-45. Please read the explanation and the last line where writer agrees to the meanings of 'SOCH'  to "SHAUCH" means to relieve human excreta.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


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## Astroboy (Jun 8, 2009)

This is a breakaway group from Radha Soami known as Ruhani Satsang. 
Check out their translation as well.  Sant Kirpal Singh: Guru Nanak's JAP JI


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## Ajmer singh Randhawa (Jun 8, 2009)

No sir, I disagree with you. The editor of this book is SEWA SINGH, Sec. RS Beas, and the address of writer is given as Dr. T R Shangari, S-6, Radhasuami colony, Dera Baba Jaimal Singh Beas.(Amritsar).
So how can you say that the group is from breakway group from Radhaswami which is known as of Sant Kirpal Singh.
Ajmer Singh Randhawa


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## Astroboy (Jun 8, 2009)

See the translation and tell me if it is faulty. 
There are many many Radha Soami groups just like Nanaksar groups.
All are out to make money by using the teachings of SGGS.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

Ajmer singh Randhawa said:


> Veer Tejwant Singh ji, I am pasting a photocopy of that page no, 44-45. Please read the explanation and the last line where writer agrees to the meanings of 'SOCH' to "SHAUCH" means to relieve human excreta.
> Ajmer Singh Randhawa.


 
Ajmer Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for posting the Punjabi version from the Radasoami about the translation of the second Pauri of Jap ji.

Pardon my ignorance and I must admit that I am not a very learned person but I have no idea what you are talking about. I would like you to elaborate it a bit better.

You write:



> writer agrees to the meanings of 'SOCH' to "SHAUCH" means to relieve *human excreta.*


 
Following is the definition of the wordf *excreta* used by you*.*

excreta - Dictionary definition and pronunciation - Yahoo! Education

*ex·cre·ta *

 (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




k-skr
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







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) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]*pl.n.* [/SIZE]

*Waste matter, such as sweat, urine, or feces, discharged from the body. *

*To separate and discharge (waste matter) from the blood, tissues, or organs.*

This is a natural process, not man made. Some people may die if they have the blockage and can not excrete and have to be operated on.

I, myself excrete lots of sweat during my daily walks which are from 5.3 miles during the week to 7 miles during the weekend, but I do not stink even with the dripping sweat.

I do apologise for not understanding what you are trying to say and what your true objection is. So the elaboration of your thought on the whole Pauri may shed some light to it.

Looking forward to it.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Jun 8, 2009)

Ajmer Singh ji

Let's go back to the beginning of the thread for the sake of members and nonmembers alike who are confused by this discussion *(not because they are stupid or uninformed but because they cannot figure out the thread of discussion). *

Your opening comments:

Khalsa veer jio, *ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ**ਜੀ**ਕਾ**ਖਾਲਸਾ**ਵਹਿਗੁਰੂ**ਜੀ**ਕੀ**ਫਤਿਹ**ਜੀ || 
*
*quoted material from Post 1  *_I was studing a translation of Japuji Saahab by Dr.T R Shangari, who taught Gurbaani and Sufi kalaam to the students of Punjab UniversityAt DAV College,Jalandhar.(Punjab). Whils translating first Pauri of Japu ji Sahab,"Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !!" 

Being a follwer of Radhaswami sect, by the grace of Guru ji he was not enlightened to translate these lines in its true form. Guruji didn't worship to be able to express actual meanings as he had bifurcated from the path of Sikhism.

This shows what he would have taught his students in his carrier as a Gurbaani teacher. He would have certainly prepared the scholars towards Radhaswami sect but distancesed himself from the blessings of Guru ji(Akal Purakh).

In translation he describes the meanings of 'soch' as passing the stool or human excreta. he further says tHAt the meanings of 'SOCH' SEEMS CONNECTED WITH THE CLEANLINESS OF BODY. 

Though i can assume the meanings but i request all the partcipants of this forum to describe It's meanings themselves and define in detail please.

Ajmer Singh Randha _   wa. *end of quoted material*

I am not one to call "heretic" or "beadbi" at the slightest suggestion of disagreement. But there are some serious problems with the teaching of Dr. T. R. Shangari. And frankly to make the claim he has made would indeed require him, if not force him,  to "bifurcate" as you put it to take the side of a sect, or even to start a sect of his own. If I pull a rabbit out of my pocket and call it "Gurmukh" that is just as much an insult of the Guru as the statement that _"Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !!"  _has something to do with human excrement. But that is what this conversation is starting to look like -- rabbits are being pulled out everywhere in the form of pseudointellectual commentary and discussed with clever commentary and very little in the way of links to sources and plain old-fashioned Gurmata. 

The only sure test of a vichaar of Gurbani is a test of internal consistency with Gurbani itself.  _T_here is nothing in the pauree that connects "Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !!"  to cleanliness or to human excreta. _

Here is the pauree

_ 
ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥ 
sochai soch n hovee jae sochee lakh vaar ||
By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.
  
ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥ 
chupai chup n hovee jae laae rehaa liv thaar ||
By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.

 
ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥ 
bhukhiaa bhukh n outharee jae bannaa pureeaa bhaar ||
The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods.
  

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ 
sehas siaanapaa lakh hohi th eik n chalai naal ||
Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.
  

ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥ 
kiv sachiaaraa hoeeai kiv koorrai thuttai paal ||
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?
  

 ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥ 
hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1||
O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||

There is nothing related to cleanliness, nor anything to remind us of excrement, at this point in the bani Sahib. A person does not have to like the translation of Dr. Sant Singh to understand that the pauree tells us that material acquisitions and intellectual accomplishment will not tear away the veil of illusion. And this also includes clever tricks. How did Guru Nanak Dev suspect we would fall time and again even in this thread? The only things that will tear away that veil, that will bring us to our Sat, our truthful nature, is to obey the hukam of His command and walk in dharma. 

_I want to add after conversation with respected forum member Tejwant ji -- The pauree also tells us that meditation with rapt attention will not make Him accessible. Observing silence will not make him accessible. Piling up provisions to feed the hungry will not make Him accessible (because the hunger referred to here is spiritual hunger). Cleverness will not make Him accessible.  (added later)
_ 
So that leaves open the question -- does having clean intestines have any connection whatsoever to obeying His hukam or walking in dharma? And the answer is NO. How do we know that? 

Because on ang 374 Guru Arjan Dev says that our physical being is of no consequence if we are seeking the darshan of Waheguru. 

ਬਿਸਟਾ ਅਸਤ ਰਕਤੁ ਪਰੇਟੇ ਚਾਮ ॥
  bisattaa asath rakath paraettae chaam ||
  you are just excrement, bones and blood, wrapped up in skin

And so mental obsessions with our bowels and its by-products are *obstacles*  to attaining the Light of His Name. How do I know?


ਨਉ ਖੰਡ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੀ ਫਿਰੈ ਚਿਰੁ ਜੀਵੈ ॥ 
no khandd prithhamee firai chir jeevai ||
You may roam over the nine continents of the world and live a very long life;
 

ਮਹਾ ਉਦਾਸੁ ਤਪੀਸਰੁ ਥੀਵੈ ॥ 
mehaa oudhaas thapeesar thheevai ||
you may become a great ascetic and a master of disciplined meditation
 

 ਅਗਨਿ ਮਾਹਿ ਹੋਮਤ ਪਰਾਨ ॥ 
agan maahi homath paraan ||
and burn yourself in fire;
 

ਕਨਿਕ ਅਸ੍ਵ ਹੈਵਰ ਭੂਮਿ ਦਾਨ ॥ 
kanik asv haivar bhoom dhaan ||
you may give away gold, horses, elephants and land;
 

ਨਿਉਲੀ ਕਰਮ ਕਰੈ ਬਹੁ ਆਸਨ ॥ 
nioulee karam karai bahu aasan ||
you may practice techniques of inner cleansing and all sorts of Yogic postures;

   ਜੈਨ ਮਾਰਗ ਸੰਜਮ ਅਤਿ ਸਾਧਨ ॥ 
jain maarag sanjam ath saadhhan ||
you may adopt the self-mortifying ways of the Jains and great spiritual disciplines;
 

ਨਿਮਖ ਨਿਮਖ ਕਰਿ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਕਟਾਵੈ ॥ 
nimakh nimakh kar sareer kattaavai ||
piece by piece, you may cut your body apart;
 

ਤਉ ਭੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਜਾਵੈ ॥ 
tho bhee houmai mail n jaavai ||
but even so, the filth of your ego shall not depart.

And the self mortifying ways that Guru Arjan Dev ji refers to here in Raag Sukhmani was the habit of Jains to spread out their feces on a daily basis and inspect them, smell them, in order to make determinations of inner balance, and to preserve any traces of worms so they would not be killed. It is a matter of fascination that sects cast off the liberation offered them by the rare realized soul that visits in a century and chase after rituals. Often and for whatever reason, clean intestines play a role in that.  Very strange. 


However there is a connection between "Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !!" and cleanliness. In sriRaag Guruji explains in many places that this is all part of the filth of ego. The filth of ego cannot be washed away. It cannot be removed by studying  it is not removed by bathing, and it is not addressed in a satisfactory way by an obsessed focus on intestinal cleanliness. 

I wonder how many other forum members and forum visitors who have been reading this thread share with me this question. *Where are you coming from? *


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## spnadmin (Jun 8, 2009)

Forgive me,

The very first time cleansing or purification comes up following _Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !! *we find*_ on Ang 4 of Japuji Sahib, in pauree 6, when Guru Nanak says,

ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਾ ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਣੇ ਕਿ ਨਾਇ ਕਰੀ ॥ 
theerathh naavaa jae this bhaavaa vin bhaanae k naae karee ||
If I am pleasing to Him, then that is my pilgrimage and cleansing bath. Without pleasing Him, what good are ritual cleansings?

So this should make Guruji's meaning clear.  And it is not necessary to pull any rabbits out of our hat, pugh, pocket or whatever to confuse things.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 8, 2009)

AAD ji..you have hit bulls eye once more.
Nothing need be said after that.
Ritualized Baths at pilgrimages teeraths, sarovars etc mean absolutely *NOTHING......IF He is NOT PLEASED* . Period.

Without a moments delay...Right away in jap bani..Guru nanak ji begins to DEBUNK the most entrenched MYTHS..the PILLARS of Hindu religious practises...
1. BATHING....and Hindus had established 68 TEERATHS for this major MYTH.Bathing instead of just beign a body cleansing exercise as it shoudl be  a nd is for most...for Hindus it became a RITUAL for meeting GOD...
2.Vow of SILENCE..this was kept by many i order to attain God..or so they thought ??ha ha (Hazoor sahib Chief Jathedar keeps this Vow of silence)
3. FASTING..even today Hindus have  a myriad of Fasts..Karva Chauth etc etc
4. Human "Cleverness"..smartness..high IQ..etc.etc..Humans may be IMPRESSED by our smartness/academic excellence/cleverness/high IQ..brilliant mind etc...BUT GOD IS NOT...He wants LOVE..and that LOVE even the stupidest dumbest human can GIVE HIM !!

Guur nanak ji DEBUNKED ALL FOUR..and Gave us HIS Conclusion..and that is HUKM RAZAII CHALLNNA. OBEY his HUKM..and you prove your LOVE for Him. I Give this in WRITING..says Nanak.

So the Radhasoamis and others are just SPINNING...after all they have NOTHING ORIGINAL of their own...so of necessity they SPIN the Gurbani of SGGS and religious texts of other religions...to impress their followers...:}{}{}::}{}{}::}{}{}::}{}{}::}{}{}:


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## spnadmin (Jun 8, 2009)

Gyani ji - thank you for instructing us regarding the 4 pillars of Hindu philosophy and how they are challenged by Guru Nanak in the pauree.

Let me however point out another source of confusion in this thread. I have checked the site with Kirpal Singh's translation of the pauree. Here it is,


One cannot comprehend Him through reason, even if one  reasoned for  ages;
One cannot achieve inner peace by outward silence,  not though one sat dumb for ages;
One cannot buy contentment with all the riches of the world,  nor reach Him with all mental ingenuity.
How may one know the Truth and break through  the cloud of falsehood?
There is a Way, O Nanak, to make His Will our own,
  His Will which is already wrought in our existence.

Nothing is mentioned about cleaning the intestines. So this is why I am distressed with this "rabbit trick " being foisted into the discussion. It comes out of thin air from the bag of tricks by Dr. T. R. Shangari and is a distraction from sensible dialog.

Added later: I have been advised by forum Mentor Tejwant ji that Dr. Shangari has not mentioned cleansing the intestines in his treatise. See then comments that follow in the discussion. Thank you.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

Antonia ji,

Guru Fateh.

I could not find anywhere in the Punjabi posting of the Dr. T.R. Shangari by Ajmer Singh ji that he mentioned anything about cleaning of the intestines as part of the second pauri. That is the reason I asked Ajmer Singh ji to clarify it. 

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Jun 9, 2009)

Tejwant ji

Thanks and congratulations. I was starting to feel bad. Maybe I was too strident, too mean. If it is not there in the Punjabi of Dr. T. R. Shangari and it is not there in the translation of the pauree by Kirpal Singh, then why is it even being put forward?

Please understand my own comments to be a request that the thread be sensible.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

as a red herring perhaps...or am i being mean too...
"Comprehend"..reasoning..i can live with..as it does happen to be true that many many have tried to "reason out God"..as if He is a mathematical Formula..or akin to Theory of relativity....and He cannot be comprehended or reasoning..is TRUE...
BUT I go with the BATHING/CLEANSING meaning simply becasue this bathing at pilgrimages was one myth that needed debunking so badly...Guru Ji even travelled to Hardwaar Kumbh Mela Kurkshetar to see for Himself..and IT has RESURFACED IN SIKHI....just within 500 years...we have very very FEW (tiny number) of "REASONING SIKHS" who try to "comprehend the Creator through THINKING"....BUT we have a VAST NUMBER of SIKHS..who "enjoy" BATHING AT PILGRIMAGE TEERATHS...to WASH thier SINS/PAAPS...just look at the sheer numbers at baolis, sarovars...etc....similar to those HINDUS at 68 teeraths...we have created our very own TEERATHS..BUT I havent come across a REASONING UNIVERSITY staffed by SIKHS..trying to reason out or mathematically fathom the Creator... So IMHO..Guru ji is talking about the bathing mentality...so many equate bahrlee safaii outer cleanliness with inner spirituality...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

is someone trying to jump on the radhasomi run spinning wheel ?? You know the Merry Go Round..where one cna jump on a Horse....but the Horse is merely attached to a bigger spinning wheel run by the operator...so is someone riding that "horse" just for fun...:ice::ice::ice::ice::ice:


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## spnadmin (Jun 9, 2009)

Gyani ji

I like what you said in another thread,

*Here is an article about How we treat GOD as a Plaything...HE is NOT to fool around with...*

It applies to this thread as well.

Antonia


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 9, 2009)

aad0002 said:


> Gyani ji - thank you for instructing us regarding the 4 pillars of Hindu philosophy and how they are challenged by Guru Nanak in the pauree.
> 
> Let me however point out another source of confusion in this thread. I have checked the site with Kirpal Singh's translation of the pauree. Here it is,
> 
> ...



Antonia ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have no idea what Kirpal Singh means by " One cannot comprehend Him through reason" because the fact of the matter is that Sikhi is based on reason. The reason made Guru Nanak chant," Pataalan pataal lakh, agaasah agaas"- There are hundreds of thousands of planets and many Mikyways". Science found that out quite recently

So  for me this pauri talks about the 4 schools of thought in Hinduism what Gyani ji calls as 4 pillars.


Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin (Jun 9, 2009)

For me Tejwant ji -- 

I am willing to accept the majority perspective regarding the 4 pillars of Hinduism being at the core of the translation.  Though I do have some technical questions as to why this *is *the larger school of thought on the translation of the verse in question i.e., _Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !!_

But I am not going to ask these questions. I am willing to be incorrect on that point. Here is why. Because my purpose in all of my posts was to get to the core of why a travesty of translation, on the cusp of being a beadbi of the Guru, if not an actually apostasy itself, even surfaced. Neither was it explained nor justified after several rounds of questioning. And I felt I had to say something about something so outrageous.


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## spnadmin (Jun 9, 2009)

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Antonia ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Tejwant ji 

On your specific question and to clear up a fuzzy section in our dialog.  There is no doubt in my mind that the pauree addresses the 4 pillars of Hinduism. This was not my original concern. I have focused my concerns on this line _Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !! 
_
The pauree yes, this line _Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !!-- _maybe or maybe not. The discussion started with respect to travesties related to this verse _Sochey soch na hovai je sochey likh waar !! _and not the pauree.


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