# Forgiveness For Lustful Sin :(



## uchihamrita (Sep 27, 2012)

I am very aware that what I have done is beyond shameful and the guilt I feel is killing me. Please acknowledge this before you read on. 

I wasn't brought up with much knowledge about Sikhism despite being born into a Sikh family. My parents didn't know knowledge but that didn't stop my initiative to learn about my religion. I loved Sikhism very very much but when I got older, I was influenced greatly by atheists and I did something shameful. I committed lust (masturbation) and potentially broke my hymen due to it. It only took something so bad for myself to realize, what am I doing? This isn't me? Why did I do such a thing? I cried afterwards (even though I probably just scratched myself) in such guilt. I still feel really  bad and I need guidance not people telling me how wrong I am- I already know. Guidance on how to get back on the track of a good Sikh and the first step is being forgiven. I strongly want to be forgiven or take the consequences and I hate my self for it. Please, as my Sikh brothers and sisters, guide me back to the way of the Guru. Help me earn my way out of this darkness, I beg of you.

I think I have lost it. I'm crying so much I hate myself for it. What does one do when they are so shameful for living that even death isn't a way out- an even worse place. I'm in dire for forgiveness so very much it's hurting me so much the sin I've committed. PLEASE someone tell me what to do


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## Luckysingh (Sep 27, 2012)

Don't worry, it's your body that waheguru gave you.
I you have done something and it feels wrong, then just don't do it again.
We are all forgiven, but if we don't learn or can show that we have not learned from our mistakes, then we don't deserve to be forgiven.

It's not bad, you haven't raped anyone or hurt anybody.
Try not to think too much about mistakes and move on whilst learning from them.

What you did was neither right or wrong, everyone has different opinions. 
What is more important is your state of mind.


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## Archived_Member16 (Sep 27, 2012)

Please review the following information to empower yourself emotionally:

*How to Forgive Yourself*

*link:* http://www.wikihow.com/Forgive-Yourself

Since you are 15 only & in UK, I urge you to use the confidential  "Sikh Help Line, UK"  and thus obtain essential professional help:


*Sikh Help Line, UK*

What We Do 

The 'Sikh Helpline' (0845 644 0704 UK) is a confidential telephone counseling and email inquiry service where you can get help and obtain information on Sikhism and cultural issues. It is run by trained people who are conversant in both English and Punjabi. Young Sikhs contact the Helpline about a wide range of issues - especially, but not isolated to, those mentioned in section A below :


*A) SCHOOL & OTHER ISSUES*

 Issues regarding Sikhism (the "5 K's")
 Bullying and Racism
 Depression 
Abuse
 Addictions (smoking / drinking)
 Problems at school or problems at home

*
B) INFORMATION CENTRE *

Sikh events (important dates)
 Access to internet/e-mail (global connection)
 School projects on Sikhism (R.E.)
 School/private visits to the Gurdwara (temple)


*Lines are open 24 hours a day.

All calls are strictly confidential.*

CALL US: 0845 644 0704 (UK)

For Mobile : 07999 004 363 (UK)

Email us: info@sikhhelpline.com

We are available, day or night, to help those in need. Any time, any concern, we want to hear from you if you are hurting, anxious, fearful, or have no one you can talk to. Sikh HelpLine are here to help you find ways to sort things out. Your call is strictly confidential and will be taken seriously. We will not trace your call or ask you to reveal your name. You can hang-up at any time during the conversation if you so wish.
*
source:* http://www.sikhhelpline.com/uk/index.php


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## uchihamrita (Sep 27, 2012)

Luckysingh said:


> Don't worry, it's your body that waheguru gave you.
> I you have done something and it feels wrong, then just don't do it again.
> We are all forgiven, but if we don't learn or can show that we have not learned from our mistakes, then we don't deserve to be forgiven.
> 
> ...


I've done Ardas and spoken to Waheguru directly to apologize and I've definitely learnt from my wrong doings. Thank you for your support.


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## uchihamrita (Sep 27, 2012)

Soul_jyot said:


> Please review the following information to empower yourself emotionally:
> 
> *How to Forgive Yourself*
> 
> ...



Thank you so much, I will definitely do this


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## Harry Haller (Sep 28, 2012)

> I am very aware that what I have done is beyond shameful and the guilt I  feel is killing me. Please acknowledge this before you read on.



What  you have done is perfectly natural and normal for many teenagers, the  guilt you feel is misplaced, you have done nothing wrong



> I loved Sikhism very very much but when I got older, I was influenced  greatly by atheists and I did something shameful. I committed lust



Atheists  are not all sex mad lust monsters, just as Sikhs are not all pious  devout abstainers, you say you committed lust like it were a murder  charge, lust is a part of us, we must learn to understand it, tame it,  none of us are perfect, some that have no problem with lust might have a  huge problem with say, anger, that does not make them any worse or  better off than you. In whose eyes is this shameful? Gods? My take is  that God really does not care what you do, it is yourself you must  answer to, God sets the rules, God does not enforce them. Sikhism is not  a punishment/reward based religion where you get max points for  thinking about baby lambs and points deducted for lustful thoughts, the  object of the game, in my view, is to educate and learn until your will,  your thoughts reflect that of God, but to do so under duress or to  force yourself is folly and false. 



> I need guidance not people telling me how wrong I am- I already know.



No one has the right to tell you that you are wrong....



> Guidance on how to get back on the track of a good Sikh and the first step is being forgiven



Forgiven  by who? Sikhism is not a religion that forgives, as there is no concept  of sin in Sikhism, that is an Abrahamic concept, Jesus did not die for  your sins, you are a Sikh. 



> I strongly want to be forgiven or take the consequences and I hate my self for it



Please  do not hate yourself for this, but if it helps you, I will share  something personal with you, when I was your age, I also discovered the  same, and I was convinced I was the only person in the world that could  do it, the feelings of guilt and shame dominated those years until I  broke down and confessed all to my parents. In time I understood that I  was not the only filthy young boy in the world, and indeed all my  friends were doing the same.You are young, you are maturing from a young  girl into a woman, and your body is changing. All sorts of emotions and  feelings will come, and they will pass. In time you will look back on  this and wonder what all the fuss was about. It is important that, as  you young people say, just be cool about it, to have an aversion is  wrong, and to have an obsession is wrong, just be cool. 



> Please, as my Sikh brothers and sisters, guide me back to the way of the  Guru. Help me earn my way out of this darkness, I beg of you.



Your  darkness is self made, as you get older you will find many many other  temptations that will also plunge you into darkness, it is important  that you understand yourself, and also try and remember no one is  looking down on you wagging a finger, you answer only to yourself. 



> I think I have lost it. I'm crying so much  I hate myself for it. What does one do when they are so shameful for  living that even death isn't a way out- an even worse place. I'm in dire  for forgiveness so very much it's hurting me so much the sin I've  committed. PLEASE someone tell me what to do



There  are two issues here, firstly, if you have done it, and don't wish to do  it anymore, and are concerned about doing it in the first place, then  you really have nothing to worry about, move on and forgive yourself. 

If  however, you feel you have developed an addiction, that is a different  matter. Addiction is not a good thing, it develops guilt and can put you  in a very dark place, it wastes time, it stops your focus on things  that matter, you forget the warm sun, the trees, the leaves, the lick of  a dog on your nose, a cuddle from your  mom or your dad, it focuses  everything on one tiny aspect of life. If you find yourself feeling this  way, focus on Creation, on everything beautiful the world has to offer,  addiction can be quite isolating, it turns you into a loner, balance  here is the key, as well as moderation. 

Good Luckkudihug


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## Rory (Sep 28, 2012)

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/members/uchihamrita.htmluchihamrita-ji 
I think Harry-ji summed it up nicely! You say you weren't brought up with much knowledge of Sikhi, why not stick around and learn now? I wasn't brought up with _any_ knowledge of Sikhism, on the contrary, I was born and raised in a Catholic family in rural Ireland! It's only relatively recently I learned about Sikhism, and part of the reason I fell in love with Sikhi was because it makes sense; for example, there is no threat of hellfire for having natural impulses. 

As has been said here, the important thing is to learn from your conscience; if you feel bad for having done something, you should think about _why_ you feel bad.
It's good that you are so aware of your relationship with God, but don't waste that emotional energy by spending it all on fear & regret. 
mundahug


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## Randip Singh (Sep 29, 2012)

I wouldn't feel bad about this.

Sikhism is not about guilt trips.

Sex is a ntural part of our growth as young adults. It's promiscuity which the big issue!!


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## itsmaneet (Sep 29, 2012)

Anything 'in excess' is bad. Be it sleep, food, sex, lust whatever .... after all its going to harm our own body. Dear sister, All do mistakes you are not the only one.

In Japji Sahib, Guru Nanak Sahib Ji says - 

*"Pariye Matt Pappa Ke Sang - O Topeh Naven Ke Rang"*
Try not to do any sin, even if you do (which all humans do). Be associated with "NAAM" all times. The time will come all your guilt feelings will be removed & you'll feel the difference of being a much better person.

God Bless You !!

Gurfateh


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## Ishna (Sep 29, 2012)

Um, since when was 'masturbation' defined as 'lust'.

uchihamrita bhenji, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what youv'e done, no matter what anyone might tell you, even yourself.

Your hymen itself has absolutely no value - it is a physical barrier, a membrane, something to protect the child's developing body.  Sikh isn't Islam!! Sikhs don't require women to 'prove their virginity' by displaying a bloodied bedsheet after the wedding night!

Masturbation doesn't negate your virginity in ANY way.

Please don't stress over something as natural and ordinary as masturbation.  You should have a healthy relationship with your body, not a quarantined one!


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## TigerStyleZ (Sep 29, 2012)

Sister,

if you feel guilt, let the guilt go. Learn of your "mistake" and go on..  If you think what you did is wrog, dont do it again - if you think it isn´t wrong do whatever you want.  For me masturbation isn´t "normal", because it is just  satisfiyng yourself.. There is no other meaning.. Why should I waste time with this "false" Satisfaction?  This keeps me just away from important things.. furtheremore if I do it because I have the urge, then I would feel like that I have no control over my body..  And if we can´t control our "Mann", we are lost. So our higher and lowerself have to meet somewhere.. where you got the control of anything. Sex or something isn´t wrong, it is in humans nature and like you know our Gurus had children as well.  It is just all about controlling. In my eyes first the partner - then oneself should be satisfied ( spiritual as well sexual, if you are married.)

I mean what is pleasure for a few seconds, if you can have it all the time? I mean the real satisfaction/pleasure? Maybe others see it differnt but if I just remembering the beauty of this world, all beings , waheguru.. I am just in such a pleasure... 


What I can just say is "Mann jithe Jag jithe"

Wish you all the best, peace out.


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## Rory (Sep 29, 2012)

Ishna said:
			
		

> Your hymen itself has absolutely no value - it is a physical barrier, a  membrane, something to protect the child's developing body.  Sikh isn't  Islam!! Sikhs don't require women to 'prove their virginity' by  displaying a bloodied bedsheet after the wedding night!


Just thought about this and the silliness of it made me laugh.


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## Randip Singh (Sep 29, 2012)

In anycase Sikhi talks about Kaam being wrong. Kaam = an abnormal obsession with sex. What happened to you is perfectly normal.


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## Harry Haller (Sep 29, 2012)

so what do you call a normal obsession with sex lol


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## Luckysingh (Sep 29, 2012)

Any ''obsession'' is not normal.


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## Ishna (Sep 29, 2012)

Tigerstylzji, where does that leave contraception then?

Although the OP is a virgin and presumably outside of a relationship, it should be noted that women don't climax as easily from sex as men do.  There is nothing wrong with bringing one's own boat to shore.  Why deny women the experience or orgasm which men seem to take for granted?

Masturbation doesn't equal automatic obsession with lust and sex and loss of control over the body!  It is not something automatically evil or wrong!

Roryji, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namus  <- look under 'Context' for reference re. bedsheet.  It would be funny if it wasn't true and that some women have died or lost their 'honour' by not being able to provide said proof of their virginity.  It is a disgusting requirement.

Why is everyone saying it's ok for the OP to feel guilty about this, and if she feels bad about it then don't do it again?  There is no reason for her to feel bad about it in the first place!


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## TigerStyleZ (Sep 30, 2012)

Ishna said:


> Tigerstylzji, where does that leave contraception then?
> 
> Although the OP is a virgin and presumably outside of a relationship, it should be noted that women don't climax as easily from sex as men do.  There is nothing wrong with bringing one's own boat to shore.  Why deny women the experience or orgasm which men seem to take for granted?
> 
> ...




Dear Ishna ji,

I can answer you the question easily..Because that we write will have impact /influence on her. Esspecially a to a young person... And we need to give her the right values, thats why we let choose her whether its right or wrong. We are just here to give help/advise. And although she can´t talk with her parents , she wrote here... I really know this.

Furthermore I never said it is granted to a guy to masturbate - A women like a men are equally "equiqqed"- Both can masturbate( This sounds really weird right now)  Anyway the values which were given by parents will accompany, the child the whole life . Thats why we she should descide herself. I am denying her nothing - lol, i just said what my viewpoint is.  And my Viewpoint is masturbation (both for women and men) is time waste and only did for self satisfaction.  

"


> Masturbation doesn't equal automatic obsession with lust and sex and loss of control over the body!"


 So , I can´t agree with you on this thing. It leads to self satisfaction and  as you know if you masturbate neurotrainsmiter like Dopamin and Serotonin are involved - and they give the feeling of "Happiness"(roughly said) , so that means after you did it for 2-3 , your brain seeks for more  and that automatically leads to masturbation.. becames a habit.. then a obsession  ---> control loosing(of course this is farfetched)


> Although the OP is a virgin and presumably outside of a relationship, it  should be noted that women don't climax as easily from sex as men do.   There is nothing wrong with bringing one's own boat to shore.


This isn´t right as well.. It depends mostly on the mood of the women on on her "excitability", and not all men clixmas as easily as you described... it depends on their exciteability as well.. Furthermore man can control their climax..

In my view firstly the partner then you...

BTW: I dont get why you get "contraception" in to it? What do you mean exactly?


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## Ishna (Sep 30, 2012)

TigerStyleZ said:


> Furthermore I never said it is granted to a guy to masturbate - A women like a men are equally "equiqqed"- Both can masturbate( This sounds really weird right now) Anyway the values which were given by parents will accompany, the child the whole life . Thats why we she should descide herself. I am denying her nothing - lol, i just said what my viewpoint is. And my Viewpoint is masturbation (both for women and men) is time waste and only did for self satisfaction.


 
I never said it is granted to a guy to masturbate - I was saying he climaxes more easily than woman does. 9/10 sex will end in climax for a man. Not so for women.



> So , I can´t agree with you on this thing. It leads to self satisfaction and as you know if you masturbate neurotrainsmiter like Dopamin and Serotonin are involved - and they give the feeling of "Happiness"(roughly said) , so that means after you did it for 2-3 , your brain seeks for more and that automatically leads to masturbation.. becames a habit.. then a obsession ---> control loosing(of course this is farfetched)


 
Some people will undoubtedly get obsessed with it, and others won't. Some people will get obsessed with sex even, and others won't, but we're not about to ban sex, just masturbation. 



> This isn´t right as well.. It depends mostly on the mood of the women on on her "excitability", and not all men clixmas as easily as you described... it depends on their exciteability as well.. Furthermore man can control their climax..


 
HAHA!! 1. It is documented fact that women don't climax as easily through sex as men do. Link to further reading. 

And good for those guys who can restrain themselves long enough to satisfy their partner.  It certainly don't come naturally to them, what with all the excitement!



> In my view firstly the partner then you...


 That's sweet...



> BTW: I dont get why you get "contraception" in to it? What do you mean exactly?


 
Well if masturbation is wrong (allegedly) because it is done only for satisfaction, isn't that the same a sex with a partner where contraception is involved?

And when you're not in a relationship, and it's not an obsession/addiction, I really cannot fathom what problem there could possibly be with a little self-lovin'. Even IN a relationship it can be useful on a couple of levels.


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 30, 2012)

> Well if masturbation is wrong (allegedly) because it is done only for  satisfaction, isn't that the same a sex with a partner where  contraception is involved?



The real problem is seeking satisfaction from any outside source of satisfaction, whether is maybe masturbation, sex, eating delicious food, being with loved ones, etc.


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## Harry Haller (Sep 30, 2012)

> The real problem is seeking satisfaction from any outside source of satisfaction, whether is maybe masturbation, sex, eating delicious food, being with loved ones, etc.



you mean living?


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 30, 2012)

I shall confess how I feel really guilty about and I'm not _satisfied _about the amount I'm masturbating!  lol


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 30, 2012)

harry haller said:


> you mean living?


No at all but that is how most people live and that is the only way they know how to live. Living can be much more enjoyable than this.

Sp ji, Why? are you not masturbating enough? lol

Oh look the three musketeers meet once again.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 30, 2012)

Veera The reason I don't do enough is because I'm too lazy!


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 30, 2012)

I wonder how much is enough?


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 30, 2012)

Maybe we should be called Masturteers!lol 

The truth is we all feel for a certain something and we feel for it in the wrong doors!


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 30, 2012)

> The truth is we all feel for a certain something and we feel for it in the wrong doors!


That sounds like it might be wisdom but I am not sure I get it.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Sep 30, 2012)

> That sounds like it might be wisdom but I am not sure I get it


One must _feel _what is wise ,and wisdom hear.


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## TigerStyleZ (Sep 30, 2012)

Ishna ji,
that is a widespread misinformation...  It is proved - that Women have a Climaxx as well in 4 -5 minute. It just depends on the mood of the women, and how much she is stressed..




> Some people will undoubtedly get obsessed with it, and others won't.  Some people will get obsessed with sex even, and others won't, but we're  not about to ban sex, just masturbation.
> 
> HAHA!! 1. It is documented fact that women don't climax as easily through sex as men do. Link to further reading.



I wasn´t talking about sex, I was talking about masturbation. And like I said - biogically, you will become "obsessed" , you can do reserach if you don´t beleive me, because your body only wants "sertonin/dopamine" happiness hormones. I can link you german websites of scientist, but I dont think this will help, but there must be english sites as well , about this "misinformation".




> Well if masturbation is wrong (allegedly) because it is done only for  satisfaction, isn't that the same a sex with a partner where  contraception is involved?
> 
> And when you're not in a relationship, and it's not an  obsession/addiction, I really cannot fathom what problem there could  possibly be with a little self-lovin'. Even IN a relationship it can be  useful on a couple of levels.


Ishna ji, this is just my view, I don´t expect you to understand . And I don´t want to change your view, but it is just did for self satisfaction/pleasure, there  is no other meaning. I don´t see any point in your argument with a partner...  I said it is O.K. if you do it with your partner- and if you don´t want any children it is fine.. but in the end both are satisfied, and you don´t abuse any other being(women or men) in your mind. Masturbation is just a "rape" , but in someones mind. But if you already have a partner and you still masturbate there must be something wrong . Because you still not feel satisfied from your "partner" , and want him to do other things, he maybe doesnt wants. 

This is just my opinion. If you win the control over your body - and over your mind, you win everything.  Thats what I meant .


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## Luckysingh (Sep 30, 2012)

Very Good TierstylesZ ji !!!

You impress me considering how young you are.



> This is just my opinion. If you win the control over your body - and over your mind, you win everything. Thats what I meant .<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


 
Mann jithe jagjeet - that is the base of your argument and rightly so it is untouchable.
-Very good, it pleases me.


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## BhagatSingh (Sep 30, 2012)

BhagatSingh said:
			
		

> Scarlet Pimpernel said:
> 
> 
> > The truth is we all feel for a certain something and we feel for it in the wrong doors!
> ...


How'd I miss it! First I miss Hari Puttar and now this! Wrong doors means wrong duar! There are Nau Dwar in teh body, the nine gates! They are wrong places to look for satisfaction. Only Dasam Duar, which is opened with assistance of a Guru, is the right place.



			
				TigerstyleZ said:
			
		

> that is a widespread misinformation...  It is proved - that Women have a  Climaxx as well in 4 -5 minute. It just depends on the mood of the  women, and how much she is stressed..


That makes sense. Though I do want to see the scientific evidence.


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## Ishna (Sep 30, 2012)

TigerStyleZ said:


> Ishna ji,
> that is a widespread misinformation... It is proved - that Women have a Climaxx as well in 4 -5 minute. It just depends on the mood of the women, and how much she is stressed..


 
You do understand all the equipment a woman has down there, and proximity of certain things to certain other things, which makes it physically more difficult to press certain buttons?

It is a fallacy that women just have to be in the right mood.  Mood helps, but women can be left very unsatisfied if they don't know how to climax.  It can set a false expectation, women can go for years without ever experiencing by way of copulation.  They might think there is something wrong with them.  I think it's fine for a woman to explore and figure out how things work.



> I wasn´t talking about sex, I was talking about masturbation. And like I said - biogically, you will become "obsessed" , you can do reserach if you don´t beleive me, because your body only wants "sertonin/dopamine" happiness hormones. I can link you german websites of scientist, but I dont think this will help, but there must be english sites as well , about this "misinformation".


 
Well I'm not obsessed with it! There, I said it. You can do all the studies in the world but I will trust my own experiences - I am definately 100% NOT obsessed with masturbation. I am more obsessed with chocolate!




> but it is just did for self satisfaction/pleasure, there is no other meaning.


 
Yes, I agree with this, I just fail to see the problem with it! If I buy a chocolate bar is it bad that I eat it all and don't share it with anybody?

[/quote] I don´t see any point in your argument with a partner... I said it is O.K. if you do it with your partner- and if you don´t want any children it is fine.. but in the end both are satisfied, and you don´t abuse any other being(women or men) in your mind. [/quote]

In a perfect world they would both be satisfied.



> Masturbation is just a "rape" , but in someones mind.


 
lol lol How do you get to this conclusion??



> But if you already have a partner and you still masturbate there must be something wrong . Because you still not feel satisfied from your "partner" , and want him to do other things, he maybe doesnt wants.


 
Again, no, it can be part of a healthy relationship. Perhaps one partner is overworked and the other one isn't, and the other one is sensitive that this might not be a good time to ask for sex. Perhaps the man is past his prime and his gear don't work like it used to. Perhaps someone just prefers to take the easy path to orgasm and take that pressure out of love-making and enjoy THAT for the experience it is.



> This is just my opinion. If you win the control over your body - and over your mind, you win everything. Thats what I meant .


 
I don't see why we have to deny ourselves the pleasures of the flesh unless we want to become renunciates. While we're at it we'd better confiscate all other enjoyable things, like CHOCOLATE!!


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 1, 2012)

> I don't see why we have to deny ourselves the pleasures of the flesh



Isi it's all about what value you put on masturbation,it's not Saintly and the Saint said that 'he who does not waste his semen even in a dream' is the ideal we should aim for,notwithstanding we have to make allowances for our youth .


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## Ishna (Oct 1, 2012)

Then men shouldn't have sex without knowing a woman is ripe to conceive.

The vast majority of women can get used to the idea of never experiencing orgasm cos it don't always happen via male appendage.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 2, 2012)

> Then men shouldn't have sex without knowing a woman is ripe to conceive



Isna Ji ,You might be right about that but practice makes perfect lol

Self love is Saadhana not stickiness.It may however involve sticking to something but by way of Selflessness.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 2, 2012)

> Self love is Saadhana not stickiness.



it has been known to get a bit sticky


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## TigerStyleZ (Oct 5, 2012)

Ishna ji, 

there is no point i discussing this further  I hust said my opinion. And it all the depends on the psychological part. Mostly. 


[/QuOTE]Well I'm not obsessed with it! There, I said it. You can do all the studies in the world but I will trust my own experiences - I am definately 100% NOT obsessed with masturbation. I am more obsessed with chocolate!





> I said this leads to obsession - biologically, and that is pretty confirmed.
> We all love chocolate , but in moderation and shared the taste doubles for me.
> 
> Well, I come to this conclusion, because in your mind - you are raping , without the consent of the person, you just masturbate - and that in my eyes is mindly raping.


Again, no, it can be part of a healthy relationship. Perhaps one partner is overworked and the other one isn't, and the other one is sensitive that this might not be a good time to ask for sex. Perhaps the man is past his prime and his gear don't work like it used to. Perhaps someone just prefers to take the easy path to orgasm and take that pressure out of love-making and enjoy THAT for the experience it is.





> I don´t agree, why should I satisfiy myself? Does I have that urge , that I can´t wait ? And here comes the controlling part of mind and body again.
> 
> 
> I don't see why we have to deny ourselves the pleasures of the flesh unless we want to become renunciates. While we're at it we'd better confiscate all other enjoyable things, like CHOCOLATE!!




No one is saying something about denying - but about control . 


And sorry, I can´t provide any sources in english just in german... I guess you have to google abit.


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## Kamala (Oct 5, 2012)

Crying over it won't solve anything, just pray to God, all that time you wasted crying could have had given you some पुण्य xD


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## Ishna (Oct 5, 2012)

TigerStylz ji

You're right, no point discussing further, you have your opinion and I have mine - we could keep going back and forth forever.  Hopefully our opinions are clearly presented for the OP as resources to form her own opinion.


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