# Sri Guru Granth Sahib: For The Masses Or The Elite



## Ambarsaria (Oct 8, 2011)

There is a trend to create a distance between Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the common man, woman or child on the street.  There is a mis-leading representation as though our Guru ji were addressing the Elite, the Granthis, the Gyanis, the Parchariks, the philosophers or the like.  This is a very false perception and trend.

Guru ji carried their message and what is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib to man/woman in the village, a farmer, a simple and straightforward Jatt, a housewife, a child, a young man, a young woman without regard to their level of education (there was little organized in those days) or the level of their intellect.

So there is a challenge here for all self professed people with acute knowledge of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib to self assess.  If you cannot explain, convey or help in simple understandable terms, what ever you claim to see in the specific message of Guru Granth Sahib ji, you don’t understand.  You are creating a disservice to Sikhism.

So please when you write, speak or otherwise convey, don’t put yourself on a pedestal and talk in riddles.
 
Anyone can complicate, only the true simplify.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 8, 2011)

During his time the GURU chose the Language of the MASSES to write Gurbani. The GURU avoided the so called "sacred" languages..like Sanskrit" like the plague....simply becasue these were for the excusive ELITE and the religious Classes, Royals etc...and the Common man was banned from learning it..nay even listening to or /using  sanskrit was punishable by having ones tongue cut out or molten lead poured into the ears.
This is proof enough that GURBANI is universal meant for ALL - poor and rich alike.

2. Just like the BRAHMIN kept the SANSKRIT EXCLUSIVE fro his own use and for DOMINATION of the Masses...the modern descendants of the Brahmin..the granthi/parcharaks/kathawachaks/especially the DERAWADEE babas and so called Brahmgyanis Mahapurashs etc etc...who are in the forefront of grabbing GURBANI as EXCLUSIVE to themselves and keeping the Sikh masses AWAY from it at all costs. THIS is the main reason behind all the sudden proliferation of PAID Akhand paaths, absent akhand paaths, sehaj paaths various other types of paaths sankat mochan paaths etc etc whereby the Sikh masses are beng led down the garden path of superstition and Bharam and Blind Faith in order for the MONETARY BENEFIT of the "Brahmin in Sikh disguise". The GURU is now being increasingly "displayed" HIGH on Stages and BEHIND golden CAGES and BARRIERS...whereby the SIKH is just asked to Matha tek, place his offering and depart. IN the Harmandar sahib the GURU Sits AMONG His SANGAT...which should be the way...but not in other Gurdwaras and especially the "EVENTS" like kirtan darbars..etc...held in pandaals...THIS is a manifestation of the widening DIVIDE being put in place by VESTED INTERESTS.


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## aristotle (Oct 9, 2011)

The message of Guru Granth Sahib is meaningful, and is for practically everyone on the street. Lets take it to the streets, and then it would show its true meaningfulness.
peacesign


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 9, 2011)

Ambarsaria said:


> to man in the village, a farmer, a simple and straightforward Jatt, a young man, a young woman without regard to their level of education or the level of their intellect.
> So please when you write, speak or otherwise convey, don’t put yourself on a pedestal and talk in riddles. Anyone can complicate, only the true simplify.Sat Sri Akal.


*Veer Ji I'm puzzled now because,* *I'm a man in a village, a farmer, a simple and straightforward Jatt, a 'young' man, with no level of education and low level intellect. This means Guru Ji was thinking of my instruction all that time ago!but I still like **riddles like :**Does a crack in a mirror still exist ,if you take away the glass?*


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 9, 2011)

GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
I appreciate the way you have presented the state of affairs.I agree to your analysis regading the manner in which we are trapped.But I  find that you are not offering any solution to this problem.

I think our 10th Nanak Guru Gobind Singh ji gave us a very simple hint regarding this.
Can we give a serious thought to a line of the Quote by Guru Gobind Singh ji which directs us as "Jo Prabh Ko Mil Bo Chahen Khoj Sabad Mein Lehen"
So there is a very clear hint that we have to meet Prabh and we have to find Prabh from Within Sabad of SGGS .
Now the question, have we found what is Prabh as being directed by our Guru.?No.
Therefore solution to the present state of affairs lies in knowing Prabh from within Gurbani and tell the same to all persons irrespective of his status .It should be clear that Gur jot(i) makes no distinction among its creation.
I think this way we should be able to come more closer to SGGS and no any such person/persons as mentioned in para 2 of your message will dare to misguide anyone in conext of understanding of SGGS .
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Oct 9, 2011)

Parkash singh bagga ji,
I agree with you that the way out/solution is EDUCATION..learn Gurbani and get closer to the GURU in PERSON..Vichaar...in depth study of meanings..context...grammar...of Gurbani.....Dass is doing that in the way I can..through Gurbani Classes in the most modern IT Computer multimedia assisted way...and i can GUARANTEE that each one who passes through my classes WILL be genuinely attached to SGGS all his/her life...will NEVER even pass in front of a dera/dehdharee guru..much less go in and matha tek. They wont pay for any akhand paaths or sehaj paaths..they will do it all by themsleves..slowly and surely...I think this is the correct way.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 9, 2011)

GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH ji,
I am really glad to know about your activities and you are handling a great 
responsibilty.I have similar vision but my way may be different, some may not like at all.
I am aware how difficult is to understand correctly anyone.It is always easy to form  non existing opinion about anyone.But I strongly believe ultimately Hari Ji is going to take care of whatever happens.
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 9, 2011)

Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.



> Can we give a serious thought to a line of the Quote by Guru Gobind  Singh ji which directs us as "Jo Prabh Ko Mil Bo Chahen Khoj Sabad Mein  Lehen"
> So there is a very clear hint that we have to meet Prabh and we have to  find Prabh from Within Sabad of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .
> *Now the question, have we found what is Prabh as being directed by our Guru.?No.*



Would you be kind enough to elaborate the sentence in bold? I am a bit confused about it.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 9, 2011)

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
Wahi GuRoo Ji ka Khalsa
WahI GuRoo Ji ki Fateh.

It is my great pleasure to hear since last long time.I still feel the pleasure about I have shared with your goodself in a most elegant way.
 Sometimes I was just sharing a point with a good freind of mine as to how to get a start for understanding Gurbani.Generally we start interpretation of Gurbani without any proper fixed reference and the whole interpretation most of the times remains inconclusive.
There was point for knowing such a reference and all of sudden the Quote by Guru Gobind Singh ji reflected that the Prabh can be a very good reference to start with Gurbani understanding.
The observation of the word Prabh thruout Gurbani confims this .It is observed that the word Prabh is only such reference which has been categorically specified in Gurbani.
So in this respect the refrence word Prabh can be a very useful to get start the understanding of Gurbani.
Then I looked for the meaning of the word Prabh from relevent Dictionary Source.Surprisingly the meaning of the word Prabh is SUPREME or ULTIMATE LORD.
Moreover we can find that this word PRABH/PRABHu is very common in most of sabads in SGGS.In this context the Bani from Sukhmani Sahib is an Example.
So I have presented a point of my observation which seems to be quite relevent and 
the Quote by Guru Gobind Singh ji is just miraculous in the context of start of understanding of Gurbani.
If you feel any deviation pl convey for my own considerations,
With regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 9, 2011)

Prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your post.  Some comments,


> Then I looked for the meaning of the word Prabh from relevent Dictionary Source.Surprisingly the meaning of the word Prabh is SUPREME or ULTIMATE LORD.
> Moreover we can find that this word PRABH/PRABHu is very common in most of sabads in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


_For me Prabh/Prabhu is the creator, the same one explained in the first line often called the mool mantar.  Please let me know if I am wrong or right in this understanding.  If I am wrong, I would like to know how I am wrong so that I can learn as I hold you in high regard in spite of differences at times.

_Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 9, 2011)

Ambersariaji

In simple terms, I think if you can master the first 10 lines of japji, your doing pretty well. If you can practice them in your daily life, your doing brilliantly!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 9, 2011)

AMBARSARIA ji,
For you Prabh/Prabhu is Creator, the same explained in the first line..You are right Sir .
But we also find that Creator being refered with several other references other than Prabh/Prabhu.
Prabhu is the only reference which is categorically specified with a special word.
We generally overlook this word which is so important for the start of understanding of Gurbani.
I am sure now you can get to know that word too.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 9, 2011)

Harry ji, you already know you are my brother Eh!  We think and sound much like an experiment in identical twins lol mundahug.  I agree 110% with your post.

As a matter of fact I want to start a series of thread with each word or couplet in "Mool Mantar".  This to expound on how deep and incredibly condensed are the meanings for all to just marvel, enjoy and live and not get their knickers in a knot through narrowness in so many thoughts and actions!

Thank you.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## spnadmin (Oct 9, 2011)

Thanks, as we need more in the area of Gurbani vichaar and less of some other topics that are at risk to strangle our consciousness.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Oct 10, 2011)

Harry ,Veera ,What will you do with those ten lines* ,read inside them ,believe in them and understand them.*Or read over them ,read in disbelief and misunderstand them and practice which of these ?


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 10, 2011)

Sinner said:


> Harry ,Veera ,What will you do with those ten lines* ,read inside them ,believe in them and understand them.*Or read over them ,read in disbelief and misunderstand them and practice which of these ?


Sinner veera "How is your Godda!".  Hope you are getting better.

Back to the thread.  Harry veer has great observation.  The lines have lot more positive energy versus all the combined negative energy in the five thieves :sippingcoffeemunda:.

There are two ways to look at life.  

First, creator made us imperfect with thieves, etc., so we need to fight the bad.  This is the line of parchariks, babeys. deras as it puts people in a defensive mode and they empty their pockets in self guilt.

Second, you are created very well by creator.  You can make yourself even better by accentuating the positives.  Such creates no money, very rarely would you hear if at all.

If I have to pick on who has better approach, it will divide the house of musketeers (I will support HH but not at your expense, catch 22 japposatnamwaheguru.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 11, 2011)

Sinner said:


> Harry ,Veera ,What will you do with those ten lines* ,read inside them ,believe in them and understand them.*Or read over them ,read in disbelief and misunderstand them and practice which of these ?



Sinnerji, little brother

I will do my best to embrace and understand them out of a willingness to better myself and to maintain my happiness with my life. I am lucky enough to be in relative peace in my life, of course, we all have problems, but my problems are one less as I have one less war to fight than your good self. 

The SGGS is many many pages long, with many many philosophies and thoughts, those ten lines represent the foundations of Sikhism to me, until one can be honest, truthful, brave, to be a friend to all, to accept Creator as the one ultimate teacher, I see little point in trying to master further concepts, it is like worrying about degree content whilst studying at school. I believe once one has finished school, only then should one worry about the syllabus of the degree. 

Join me at the start line dearest brother, we can both be tortoises together winkingmunda


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## Ishna (Oct 13, 2011)

If SGGS is for the masses, why does it have so many different languages in it?  Would a commoner know Punjabi, Persian, Arabic words?

And now the masses are English-speaking, does that mean the accurate translation of SGGS should be a top priority, so it is accessible to the masses, and doesn't get stuck in a library of classical literature understandable only to people who spend more time learning Punjabi, learning classical Punjabi, contemplating the historical frame of reference to arrive at what they hope is the intended message, as opposed to spending their time actually striving for Darshan, for constant Simran, for honest work, for nurturing our families and personalities so they are generous and that we share that generosity with those who need it?

I fear I'm going to spend the rest of my life looking for Darshan in some dusty dictionary and history book rather than looking for it in the hear and now.

So I would say, it WAS for the masses, and it's slipping further away from the masses and into the world of academia.  Is that even a word?  *goes to check the dictionary... HA!*


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## Harry Haller (Oct 13, 2011)

I actually put it to all of you that the SGGS is the living validation of what we already know. We will not find anything 'new' written, or anything surprising, it is already in our heads in the voice of the Guru. 

However, to satisfactorily decipher the teachings, given the language and time, and brain effort, is worth it in my view, if only to know that you are on the right path, and to compare notes so that you remain a Grade A student,. 

I am of course, not a Grade A student, (school report 1986, Harry constantly sets himself extremely low standards, which he then fails to achieve), I am the one looking in through the window, after being thrown out of class for being the class clown, Spji is the one sitting at the back, keeping his head down, after egging me on, Ishnaji is the one that keeps asking questions to which we all think the answer is obvious, until it transpires that the answer we all thought was correct, was wrong, that makes adminji principal, Gyaniji, the stern looking one that hands out thappars when your wrong, Prakashji, the slightly eccentric teacher with john lennon glasses, and of course dear Ambersariaji, the school caretaker that takes you to one side and gives you snippets of advice and encouragement and whose words you remember as the most memorable and sense making, he doesnt care if you smoke a fag by the bike sheds, or lust after the sixth formers, as long as you progress in life, are happy, and can do all this within Sikhi thinking.


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 13, 2011)

Ishna said:


> If Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is for the masses, why does it have so many different languages in it?  Would a commoner know Punjabi, Persian, Arabic words?
> 
> And now the masses are English-speaking, does that mean the accurate translation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji should be a top priority, so it is accessible to the masses, and doesn't get stuck in a library of classical literature understandable only to people who spend more time learning Punjabi, learning classical Punjabi, contemplating the historical frame of reference to arrive at what they hope is the intended message, as opposed to spending their time actually striving for Darshan, for constant Simran, for honest work, for nurturing our families and personalities so they are generous and that we share that generosity with those who need it?
> 
> ...


Ishna ji "despair" and Sikhism don't go together. mundahug

The important part is that "The Message" is straight forward and for the masses and all.  Challenge for all is to build from simplicity to depth and not necessarily the other way around all the time.  The "Elitist" view is you got to be perfect in Grammar, phonetics, vocabulary before you can study Gurbani.  One can never start then and we depend upon a few.  This is not Sikhism, this is "Elitism".   No place for such.  Even though it never hurts to refine, re-think, and so on throughout your life.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Seeker9 (Oct 13, 2011)

> Challenge for all is to build from simplicity to depth and not necessarily the other way around all the time.



There is a lot to be said for learning to crawl before you can walk and then perfecting walking before you can run

There is a "lost in translation" aspect and I guess those who are fluent in the Gurmukhi script  can appreciate some things differently

But Ishna Ji, what you describe applies to the majority of sacred texts from the Vedas, to the Bible etc doesn't it? However, one thing we can say with some confidence and which does make SGGS stand out I think is in terms of it's composition (by the Gurus and Bhagats and not religious scribes) and its accuracy...in terms of not having bits taken out, new bits added etc

So, I think we are very lucky that there is a true version to be translated in the first place!

This is something the masses should rejoice about!!


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## Seeker9 (Oct 13, 2011)

I should have added though that in studies of philosophy, religion and science, there will always be learned people make scholarly contributions and those are to be welcomed so long as they have a genuine desire to share and explain their knowledge and enrich our understanding as well

But not elitists as the thread title suggests...


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## Harry Haller (Oct 14, 2011)

Surprisingly, I can read punjabi, even with my very limited efforts, I find I can get more out of a limited punjabi reading, when I do not understand half the words, than I can reading an english translation, SGGS is not that different to reading normal punjabi, it is not written in the elitist manner that dominates other religions, but then I have not read a huge amount, so I am happy to be corrected


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 16, 2011)

I find that we all like to understand Gurbani based on what our earlier  great preachers and scholars have established for us We dont wantto budge even an inch from these norms and a our all efforts are there to see that these earlier established norms are not disturbed.
Knowing  and or Reading a particular language is different from getting the understanding of the meanings from that language..
We will have to see why we are avoiding the words of Gurbani with matra of Aukad.Unless we understand the meanings of the Gurbani words with Matra of Aukad we are going to stay where we are.
This is the reason many of us do not know what we have to look from within Gurbani.
First and the most important is to know What is Prabh(u) in Gurbani ?Once we get to know this any one can start towards right understanding of Gurbani.
(This word Prabhu I refer to the word Prabh with A matra of Aukad under its last letter.)

I know one of my veer has taken the word Prabh with Matra of Dulaikd as reference in the interpretation of the word Sati Naamu.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 16, 2011)

Prakash.s.bagga ji for once please enlighten us with "One Complete Shabad" translated in English per your Grammar suggestion so that we can understand your point.  We can then perhaps also learn first hand what you mean and use it in our studies.  I am sorry no body here is stupid to just plagiarize, close their eyes and accept what they read.  People try to make an effort to understand with all that is available and not in-spite of all that is available.
There is very rude saying in English, "Put up or Shut up".  I am not sure if it illustrates my or others frustration.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 16, 2011)

My intentiom is not to frustrate anyone.
I can post any sabad in english for your and anyones analysis but you should ensure that the same would not be deleted as I  have been advised by SPNAdmin ji any thing off the prevailing standard would be a subject of deletion.
Prakash.s.Bagga


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## Seeker9 (Oct 16, 2011)

Dear Prakash Ji

I think the standard is to post the complete Shabad in it's entirety in both punjabi and english translation

I think this makes a lot of sense

We are here to learn and we want to make sure we get as much detail as we can. It is sometimes easy to search for specific words and then take a line out of context. 

If we can see the complete Shabad, we can then understand the overall context and then in turn understand the individual lines

So hopefully you will be able to accommodate this 

Thanks


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## Joginder Singh Foley (Oct 16, 2011)

*WJKKWJKF* Sat Siri Akal 

The answer is not rocket science Siri Guru Granth Sihabji is for *ALL* also there are more than enough teachings of the gurus to show that 

:whatzpointsing:


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## Ambarsaria (Oct 16, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> My intentiom is not to frustrate anyone.
> I can post any sabad in english for your and anyones analysis but you should ensure that the same would not be deleted as I  have been advised by SPNAdmin ji any thing off the prevailing standard would be a subject of deletion.
> Prakash.s.Bagga


Prakash.s.Bagga ji process is very simple.  Go to srigranth.org.  Pick the shabad and post it with the English translation of Sant Singh Khalsa and if possible also select Prof. Sahib Singh Teeka option.  Then you state your own translations for all to see and compare.  There are many such examples of posting throughout the SPN.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 16, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> My intentiom is not to frustrate anyone.
> I can post any sabad in english for your and anyones analysis but you should ensure that the same would not be deleted as I  have been advised by SPNAdmin ji any thing off the prevailing standard would be a subject of deletion.
> Prakash.s.Bagga



Prakash ji,

Guru Fateh.

I do not know if you remember this but I requested you to teach us what  Sihari, Bihari,aunkar etc and other part of grammer in Gurbani  mean and how  they change the meaning/s of the word many years ago when you started posting in this forum.

I had requested you to post shabads which had words with and without the above and shed some light on the differences. We are all here to learn and as you have pointed out in  many of your posts the differences, it is you who can solve these riddles for us.

I hope you do it this time.

Thanks and eagerly waiting for your input.

Tejwant Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Oct 17, 2011)

TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
GUROO FATEH PARWAN,

I always  value your views and interactions in the context of Gurbani.
I have been requesting to everyone that we should first be confirmed that there are three words  related to GuR as.
1 GuR
2 GuR with a matra of Aukad under letter R as Single line and
3 GuR with a matra of Dulaikad under letter R as two lines
This pattern of words is very clear in Gurmukhi version whereas in English version we can see that there is no word depicted for its matra of Aukad.
Till now no one has agreed to this observation regarding the words.So it is my sincere request that if we want to acquire a clear understanding we should come forward for an discussion with open mind.It should not be viewed as show of superiority or making someone inferior.We all are here to understand the messages of our GuRoo as clearly as possible.
I look forward to the positive cooperation of the sangat.
With kind regards
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Tejwant Singh (Oct 17, 2011)

prakash.s.bagga said:


> TEJWANT SINGH Ji,
> GUROO FATEH PARWAN,
> 
> I always  value your views and interactions in the context of Gurbani.
> ...



Prakash Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please post the whole shabads in Gurmukhi and also in English with your own interpretation about what you have mentioned above regarding the grammar in Gurbani which I agree is very important to understand our Gurus' message.

You can help us take these baby steps towards the way to understand Gurbani.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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