# Tankhah Against Prof Darshan Issued



## vikram9274 (Dec 5, 2009)

AKAL TAKHT SAHIB DECLARES RAGI A TANKHAYIA
                    PANTHIC.ORG
                    Published on December 5, 2009

                     Sri Amritsar Sahib - The five Singh Sahibans issued an edict from Sri Akal Takht Sahib declaring the controversial Ragi Darshan Singh a ‘Tankhayia’ (apostate). The Ragi was sternly chastised for failing to appear at the apex Sikh Takht at 12 noon on December 5th of 2009 as required.

On November 17th,  the Ragi was directed by Sri Akal Takht Sahib to appear before the five Singh Sahibans and provide explanation for the offending remarks he had made about Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji at a Rochester, New York gurdwara.

The directive by Sri Akal Takht Sahib also declared the Ragi as a “Guru-Nindak” who, due to ego and self-interest, failed to uphold the respect and maryada of the sacred Takht Sahib.

The Sri Akal Takht Sahib directive further stated that until the Ragi appears in person for atonement, all Sikh organizations, institutions, and Gurdwaras should not allow the Ragi to utilize their facilities.

The five Singh Sahibans also gave a final ultimatum to the heretic Ragi that if he does not abide by this directive and appear before the Takht before January 7th of 2010, further severe action would be taken against him according to Panthic norms and traditions.
*
Contents of the December 5th directive from Sri Akal Takht Sahib:*




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Link: Panthic.org


Does anyone know why he didn't show up to defend himself and his statements? I thought he was going to present his "Original" videos.?


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## spnadmin (Dec 5, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

vikram ji

How do you conclude he is a heretic? ("You"  may not be you personally.) Do you simply follow what every authority figures say even when their own integrity is highly questionable? This post is by panthic.org which has been running a venomous campaign, including promulgating lies and distortions, for more than a year. Now they are dancing with glee. This story has not ended yet. And it will not be over on January 7.


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## vikram9274 (Dec 5, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

ma'am, I'm not following any one media outlet. If you read what I wrote, I never said he was a heretic. I was just putting up the news of him not showing up and wondering why he didn't? I didn't say anything about him or his views.


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## spnadmin (Dec 5, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*



vikram9274 said:


> ma'am, I'm not following any one media outlet. If you read what I wrote, I never said he was a heretic. I was just putting up the news of him not showing up and wondering why he didn't? I didn't say anything about him or his views.



Thank you for the clarification. He did show up. He was given what in the US we call the "run around." There is a game called "The Cheese Stands Alone." In this game, children sing a number of rounds in which a farmer takes a wife, a wife takes a child, a child takes a dog, etc. etc. When the game reaches the very last round, and children sing "the rat takes the cheese, the rat takes the cheese" they form a circle around the cheese. The game ends when the children all sing "The cheese stands alone, the cheese stands alone." The next time the game is played, the cheese gets to be the farmer. You have been observing in the past two weeks a game which ended with Professor Darshan Singh. surrounded by security and supporters, as the "cheese"  "standing alone" outside the Akal Takht. 

The next time the game is played, he gets to be the farmer.


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## International Akaali (Dec 5, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*



vikram9274 said:


> ma'am, I'm not following any one media outlet. If you read what I wrote, I never said he was a heretic. I was just putting up the news of him not showing up and wondering why he didn't? I didn't say anything about him or his views.


 
Vikram,

You need to read the letter which said for Prof. Darshan Singh to show up at AKAL TAKHT at 12pm at Dec5, not jathedars. Secondly, Jathedars never showed up Prof Darshan Singh did. Thirdly, Where was the "final verdict" read? Was it Akal Takht or the secretriat? If it was read at Akal Takht then this is the same place where me and you know that Prof Darshan Singh was full well there at the time allotted. However Jathedar decided to sit in the private room. 

The question arises if the "final verdit" by the "Jathedars" was read at Akal Takht then where were they at 12pm?


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## vikram9274 (Dec 5, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*



International Akaali said:


> Vikram,
> 
> You need to read the letter which said for Prof. Darshan Singh to show up at AKAL TAKHT at 12pm at Dec5, not jathedars. Secondly, Jathedars never showed up Prof Darshan Singh did. Thirdly, Where was the "final verdict" read? Was it Akal Takht or the secretriat? If it was read at Akal Takht then this is the same place where me and you know that Prof Darshan Singh was full well there at the time allotted. However Jathedar decided to sit in the private room.
> 
> The question arises if the "final verdit" by the "Jathedars" was read at Akal Takht then where were they at 12pm?




Sir, I think you are thinking that the views of the article are mine. I was merely putting the news up. From what I have read, Ragi showed up and was provided security but reused to go inside and wanted to discuss/hold the meeting outside. While I am not okay with decisions made behind closed doors, I am also not in support of having a meeting like this outside because as we know, violence has broken out over this issue numerous times before. I don't really know if I agree with him just showing up and refusing to go inside. I am in the view that him and perhaps 2 associates should have been allowed to go in. Holding a meeting outside on the steps of Akal Takhat would result in bickering, and perhaps even violence. And if this was to occur, it would be very shameful for the panth because a gurdwara is not a place of violence. I don't really know what to think of the way this issue has been handled. I myself am extremely tired of it all and as far as i am concerned, Jaap Sahib is a part of my daily nitnem, and that is that.


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## International Akaali (Dec 5, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*



vikram9274 said:


> Sir, I think you are thinking that the views of the article are mine. I was merely putting the news up. From what I have read, Ragi showed up and was provided security but reused to go inside and wanted to discuss/hold the meeting outside. While I am not okay with decisions made behind closed doors, I am also not in support of having a meeting like this outside because as we know, violence has broken out over this issue numerous times before. I don't really know if I agree with him just showing up and refusing to go inside. I am in the view that him and perhaps 2 associates should have been allowed to go in. Holding a meeting outside on the steps of Akal Takhat would result in bickering, and perhaps even violence. And if this was to occur, it would be very shameful for the panth because a gurdwara is not a place of violence. I don't really know what to think of the way this issue has been handled. I myself am extremely tired of it all and as far as i am concerned, Jaap Sahib is a part of my daily nitnem, and that is that.


 
Jaap Sahib being apart of nitnem is not the question here. 

If these jathedars are so concerned about sikh panth why not take issue to those who divide khandey thee pahul up. Taksalis, sant samaj type people read lambee chaupai while takht has issued direct order as per sikh reyat maryada to go up to dusht dukh tee laho bachayee. Why not take action against those who are dividing sikh panth by reading lambee chaupai and arills during rehraas and amrit sanchar? what about panthic ekta then?

What about panthic ekta when these so called sant samaj people call sikh reyat maryada a document made by the british? 

With what face did the jathedars summon prof darshan singh makes no sense too me. Iqbal singh Patna has already excommunicated him from his own panth. How is he sitting in meetings and to decide future of sikhs? He has three wives he is a bajjar kureights why is he not given proper punishment? 

Hajoor sahib and patna sahib both have parkash of Dasam Granth beside guru granth sahib, If it is not gurbani as per so called jathedar tarlochan singh then how can it be parkash beside guru granth sahib. 

Gurbachan Singh has been taking hukamnama from dasam granth before, as per tarlochan singh if it isnt gurbani, how in the right mind is he taking hukamnama from something which isnt gurbani? It is not only me that is saying its not gurbani, but from the horses mouth the so called jathedar tarlochan singh.  

This decision was made prior to Prof. Darshan Singh comming in thus sikh panth will never accept decision of these so called jathedars, akal takht has been hijacked by badal panth.


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## vikram9274 (Dec 5, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*



International Akaali said:


> Jaap Sahib being apart of nitnem is not the question here.
> 
> If these jathedars are so concerned about sikh panth why not take issue to those who divide khandey thee pahul up. Taksalis, sant samaj type people read lambee chaupai while takht has issued direct order as per sikh reyat maryada to go up to dusht dukh tee laho bachayee. Why not take action against those who are dividing sikh panth by reading lambee chaupai and arills during rehraas and amrit sanchar? what about panthic ekta then?
> 
> ...



I've been saying this all along man. I have stated that the Jathedars are corrupt and greedy and shouldn't have the right to judge. A criminal has no right to judge another criminal. I have stated in another thread that Iqbal Singh has numerous wives. I have stated that Gurbachan Singh is only after money. I have stated that they visited the dera of chicago Baba, who is involved in immigration fraud, was caught in a motel with a women, and does drugs. I have stated everything you said above, numerous times. I have stated my dislike of the way the jathedars have handled this issue and also expressed my dislike of them in general. They are political puppets and spend most of their time fighting amongst themselves.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 5, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

Decisions and discussions on the PANTHIC ISSUES ( and this is a Panthic Issue as the Guru ship of SGGS as Supreme and Only Guru,Gurbani status of Charitaropakhoyan - on which a Previous Akal Takhat jathedar sadhu Singh Bhaura has already made a decision as to not being gurbani.) were Never made behind closed doors. How ridiculous that when Prof darshan Singh ji is sitting and waiting at the "Akal Takhat"..it is not deemd to be Akal Takhat....BUT when the Gurbachan Singh reads out his edict (decided in a closed room) the very same place becomes Akal Takhat. Always SIKH SANGATS gathered in large numbers before the Akal Takhat and discussed..GURMATTAS were passed..and then ONLY the Five/Jathedras came forward to ENFORCE the GURMATTA decided by the Sangat. No Gurmatta was ever decided upon behind closed doors....ever.

By the way, Vickram Ji..Individuals like the famous baba of Chicago, who are called by the Five Jathedars on their INDIVIDUAL "wrongs" maybe dealt with behind closed doors as that is not a Sikh Panthic Issue at all. And that baba was absolved of all wrongdoing behind closed doors !!...Such matters deserve closed doors..as the baba in Chicago was also doing his thing behind closed doors !!! Ragi Darshan Singh does Kirtan in SANGAT...and should be dealt with in SANGAT !!:welcome:


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## vikram9274 (Dec 5, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

Sir I agree, I just believe that with this issue, in my honest opinion, the sangat present should also respect that they are on the property of a gurdwara. We have seen people get up and disrespect the SGGS itself over this issue. So, I think that one would have to insure that the sangat present while this issue is discussed would not get rowdy and do anything disrespectful.


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## spnadmin (Dec 5, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*



vikram9274 said:


> Sir I agree, I just believe that with this issue, in my honest opinion, the sangat present should also respect that they are on the property of a gurdwara. We have seen people get up and disrespect the SGGS itself over this issue. So, I think that one would have to insure that the sangat present while this issue is discussed would not get rowdy and do anything disrespectful.



*What is the connection between your comment and the thread topic? * A meeting did not take place because the ones who called it were not present.

The issue is a panthic issue. It was addressed in a fashion outside the boundaries of panthic governance. Then the instigators of a non-panthic process did not show up -- without notice -- leaving Professor Darshan Singh "to stand alone."  

A meeting did not take place because the ones who called it were not present. *What are you talking about? *


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## vikram9274 (Dec 5, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

My point is that, the jathedars were inside a room and Ragi wanted the meeting to be held outside.  I do not agree with decisions behind doors but if this is to take place with sangat present than we must insure that the sangat does not get rowdy. Please read all the threads and you will see the exchange of views between myself and Internation Akali and you wil see both my point and the context it was made in.



                                                                                                <table class="contentpaneopen"><tbody><tr><td class="contentheading" width="100%">Akal Takht declares Prof Darshan Singh 'Tankhayia'                                </td> <td class="buttonheading" align="right" width="100%">
</td> <td class="buttonheading" align="right" width="100%">
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>                                                                                                                                           <table class="contentpaneopen"><tbody><tr> <td colspan="2" align="left" valign="top" width="70%">   JAGMOHAN SINGH                                        </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" class="createdate" valign="top">  Saturday, 05 December 2009                </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" valign="top">            
AMRITSAR: In an unprecedented move former Jathedar Akal Takht Professor Darshan Singh was Saturday declared Tankhaiya (guilty for religious misconduct) in an edict announced from Akal Takht (highest Sikh temporal seat) by Sikh clergy after a marathon meeting here. 
  During meeting of Sikh Clergy including Jathedar Akal Takht Gyani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar  Takht Damdama Sahib Gyani Balwant Singh Nandgarh, Jathedar Takht Kesgarh Sahib Gyani Tarlochan Singh, Jathedar  Takht Patna Sahib Gyani Iqbal Singh and Head Priest Sachkhand Takht Hazoor Sahib Gyani Partap Singh were present at Akal Takht.
On November 17 last, Jathedar  Akal Takht had asked Prof Darshan Singh to appear at Akal Takht for clarification as he had allegedly uttered blasphemous remarks against the tenth Sikh master Guru Gobind  Singh at USA. 
Professor Darshan Singh is a renowned Sikh scholar and well connected to Sikh community at various foreign countries and remained Jathedar Akal Takht during the peak days of militancy in Punjab in the year of 1986. 
Earlier in the morning Darshan Singh had come before Akal Takht but did not go inside to meet the Sikh clergy and while leaving, he left file of documents of his clarification regarding his innocence. 
When Darshan Singh was sitting outside the Akal Takht, secretary SGPC told him to go inside before the Sikh clergy but Darshan Singh vehemently denied to go inside and demanded that Sikh clergy should come out to listen him. 
Whereas, Sikh clergy in an edict said that Darshan Singh had arrived at Akal Takht carrying ego in his head, since he had violated all the norms of Sikh religion during his appearance at sacred Akal Takht. 
In an edict Sikh clergy described Darshan Singh as so called professor who did not bother about the respect of highest Sikh temporal seat Akal Takht, so that is why he was declared tankhaiya. 
Edict further stated that Darshan Singh was given time to appear in person before the Akal Takht being a humble Sikh personality till January 7 to accept religious punishment.
Edict also asked the Sikh community all over the world that Darshan Singh would not be entertained at anywhere in the world particularly in any Sikh shrines  unless Darshan Singh appears at Akal Takht and accept punishment awarded by Sikh clergy. 
Edict said that Darshan Singh would remain guilty of Sikh Panth unless appear at Akal Takht for atonement. 
Earlier in the morning when Prof Darshan Singh had arrived at threshhold of Golden Temple to reach at Akal Takht was provided security cover of two different human chains. SGPC had deputed nearly 400 members of task force for the security of Darshan Singh. 
Delhi Gurdwara Management Committee President Paramjit Singh Sarna also appeared at Akal Takht to submit his clarification since he had allegedly prevented certain group of Sikhs to perform prayer at Gurdwara at Delhi. 
</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## spnadmin (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

Allow me to make this point as clearly as I can. Before any shooting of letters back and forth, someone needed to realize something. If Professor Darshan Singh was guilty of the laundry list of items (which btw grew by the week as December 5 approached), then corporate matters of the Panth were at stake. If corporate matters affecting the entire panth are at stake, and it is believed that Sri Guru Granth Sahib itself has been undermined(and only SGGS), a *representative meeting of the panth must be convened for a gurmatta* and must be convened according to the *Sikh Rehat Maryada. *


A gurmatta is not the SGPC nor a collection of Jathedars. A decision of a gurmatta was not issued. Professor Darshan Singh knows SRM better than I do, and he knew that a shell game of "find the jathedars" was being played to the max on December 5.  (It was being played as ACT 2 in the drama the week before in which Avtar Singh of SGPC told him to show up and the Akaal Takht said "Don't bother us, send a letter.")

I don't expect to change your mind nor am I trying to do so. All I would like to do is get some authentic information out here QFT so that the casual reader is si horrified by the conduct of some politically appointed religious leaders that they generalize this to all of Sikhi.


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## vikram9274 (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

ma'am I don't even have an opinion on this. What will you change my mind on? I have repeatedly stated that the Jathedars are corrupt and greedy. I have started threads about it. I am merely posting news relevant to the topic and hoping that somehow we can put together a complete picture of what truly occurred.


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## spnadmin (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*



vikram9274 said:


> ma'am I don't even have an opinion on this. What will you change my mind on? I have repeatedly stated that the Jathedars are corrupt and greedy. I have started threads about it. I am merely posting news relevant to the topic and hoping that somehow we can put together a complete picture of what truly occurred.



vikram9274 ji,

I know. This is what you always say whenever you are confronted with an opinion that adverse to the "content" of your posts. Fir you "post new relevant to a topic" and then you say that you are contributing to a "complete picture of what has truly occurred,"  or some version of that. You also always back off by saying that you don't have a personal opinion, and that thej athedars are corrupt and greedy. 

It has by now become a pattern.


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## vikram9274 (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

Look ma'am, my opinion is that the handling of this is all wrong. I really don't have an interest in the "issue" because my views are that the bani from dasam granth is in my nitnem. Dasam Granth is, in my opinion, an extremely interesting read and can educate everyone. I do not agree with the prakash of Dasam Granth next to SGGS but I don't find it such a big issue that it should ruin our panth. I do not think that in the grand scheme of things, the guru's would mind if someone sat next to them or walked along side them and if SGGS is to be considered our living guru, to me the "prakash issue" is not HUGE. My problem is with the way this issue is being handled. The way it is being taken to whole new levels by some people and beadbi of SGGS is being done. The part politics plays in our religion is disgusting. The fact that our leaders are full of greed and are incompetent. The fact that our panth is in constant turmoil and is disorganized, is my problem. In my eyes, our panth is turning into a joke. Infighting, politics, greed, kids using drugs, singers and babas fighting, leaders who have numerous wives, leaders who take bribes, priests who lie and can't follow religious customs. Our panth is on a downward spiral.


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## spnadmin (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

Words of insight on the recent events regarding Professor Darshan Singh sum up my personal take on things 1000 times better than I can do. 

"There are no "religious" leaders.. and then ..."Sikhs supposed to bequeath their minds to any other except the wisdom of the AGGS"

The poster goes on to point out that these are thugs with allegiances to political parties, and are remiscent of a "safron brigade. ....And there is now a  little jhandi atop Darbar sahib. Finally the poster points out that Guru Nanak is no longer welcome in his own house.

To protect the privacy of its author, no name given.


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## vikram9274 (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

Well, I am a sikh, but i don't really buy into the whole listen to akal takhat or leaders stuff. I've never been much of a follower, more of a do what i want and think is right type of guy. Earn my respect and i'll follow you to hell and back. Do something to disrespect me, i'll make sure you end up in hell or atleast 6 feet below ground. The whole respect people because "just because" isn't logical to me. Plus, authority has never been my thing, so i guess i have the same views on that.


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## spnadmin (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

Method of Adopting Gurmatta
Article XXVI 



(a) The Gurmatta can only be on a subject  that affects the fundamental principles of Sikh religion and for their  upholding, such as the questions affecting the maintenance of the status of the  Gurus or the Guru Granth Sahib or the inviolability of the Guru Granth Sahib,  ambrosial baptism, Sikh discipline and way of life, the identity and structural  framework of the Panth. Ordinary issues of religious, educational, social or  political nature can be dealt with only in a Matta [resolution]. 
(b) A Gurmatta [Holy resolution] can be  adopted only by a select primary Panthic group or a representative gathering of  the Panth. 

*http://www.searchsikhism.com/sec6.html

Did this happen? Or was there a shell game played of "find the jathedars?" 
*


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## spnadmin (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

Professor Darshan Singh at Akal Takht

YouTube- Prof Darshan Singh Khalsa In Front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib at Sri Akal Takht Sahib

Retrieved from http://www.greatsikhi.com/pdsjk.html


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## Randip Singh (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

Absolutely PATHETIC! behaviour by the Akal Takht!

Even more Pathetic is the reporting and commentary by Pathetic.org....(they represent nothing panthic). 


PS I noticed a comment from that even bigger narrow minded so and so Deep Singh.


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## satnamr46 (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

Randip ji 
           Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
           Waheguru ji ki  Fateh

The present turmoil and targic state of affairs gripping the Sikh World is because of spiritual and political bankruptcy of sikh leadership.They are disgustingly incompetent,have scant knowledge of  the scripture and sikh philosophy.The Pujaarees are solely concerned with keeping their jobs .They have no sense of shame and embarrassment in doing the kind  of things they are doing.

They do not want to face Prof. Darshan Singh in the presence of the Guru and the Sadh Sangat and seek clarification from him.They have stooped so low as to blame their own failings on him.

However dedicated as Prof. Darshan Singh is, he is going to appear again at Sri Akal Takhat Sahib on December 7. He,as did earlier would not see these so-called Jathedars of the sikh kaum in any closed quarters, but only in the presence of our Eternal Guru and the Sadh Sangat.(ref. Spokesman,December 6, Page3). He is not going to see these priests in a secretive chamber where deals are made.

Satnam Singh


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## vikram9274 (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*



satnamr46 said:


> Randip ji
> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
> Waheguru ji ki  Fateh
> 
> ...



but at the same time, don't you think that with all the fighting that has broken out over this issue inside gurdwaras around the globe, it is not wise to hold a discussion in front of open sangat? I mean, I doubt that either side would even get to speak to one another because members of the sangat would be yelling and jumping into the discussion. Even in videos of 10 people sitting and discussing dasam granth, it is mostly just arguing and bickering and nothing of substance results. I don't agree with decisions behind made closed doors, but at the same time, holding this discussion in the open in front of 100's of people would not result in anything productive. Fights might break out, discussion will not occur, etc.  The jathedars need to find a good solution as to where, when, and how to hold this meeting.


oh and 400 people for security?? HAHAHA he's some old guy going to discuss an issue, 400 people for security sounds ridiculous and just adds to the controversy. That is like a mini-army. Just plain stupid.


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## satnamr46 (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

Vikram, What kind of solution are you visualizing? You do not seem to trust the so called jathedars and have expressed your strong opinions about them in many of your posts.You dont  want  the issue to be dealt  with behind closed doors. You want the jathedars to find a solution. 
I  do not have an option. May be you do. And if you have one let them know. 

Life is real. And if we cannot find solutions in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib
and that too at the revered Akaal Takhat,that tells you of the terrrible slide in sikh values, and the need to vigorously and tenaciously follow the message of Gurbani and root out those forces hell bent on undermining the revealed Gurbani. 

Crises have gripped the sikhs before and will most likely grip again.Treading the path shown by the Guru is not always easy. There are abominable forces out there who would use every  weapon in their arsnel to block this path.

We have to make choices. Do we believe solely and unequivically in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, as directed by the  Tenth Master? Is it a Pooran Guru? Can and does it answer all our questions? If the answer is YES , we do not have to look elsewhere.Guru Rakha
Satnam Singh


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## vikram9274 (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

See I have no problem with having decisions made at Akal Takhat, but it is only right if those making the decision were unbiased and uncorrupted. To send a man into a closed  room with 5 people who have views opposite from his and have them judge him is not right. Especially when these leaders have proved their incompetency and greed time and time again. At the same time, to hold this outside in front of open sangat will not allow for any discussion to occur. Sangat will only interfere in the discussions and may even start a ruckus. Their are elements in our panth who will use this to start a fight. We need to find a middle ground. Perhaps allow two or three people to go inside with Ragi? I do not know, I am not the Jathedar and it is not my responsibility. They have accepted this position and get paid for it and use their position to get money from abroad, so they should at least try to do their job semi-efficiently.

And ofcourse I do not trust these Jathedars, they are greedy and fight amongst themselves on a regular basis. Iqbal Singh is a polygamist. They are all after money. They spend most of their time abroad or attending functions. Political motivations control them. I have no reason to trust them. I will only respect those who have earned my respect. Respecting someone just because "you should", isn't reason enough for me.


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*



vikram9274 said:


> See I have no problem with having decisions made at Akal Takhat, but it is only right if those making the decision were unbiased and uncorrupted. To send a man into a closed  room with 5 people who have views opposite from his and have them judge him is not right. Especially when these leaders have proved their incompetency and greed time and time again. At the same time, to hold this outside in front of open sangat will not allow for any discussion to occur. Sangat will only interfere in the discussions and may even start a ruckus. Their are elements in our panth who will use this to start a fight. We need to find a middle ground. Perhaps allow two or three people to go inside with Ragi? I do not know, I am not the Jathedar and it is not my responsibility. They have accepted this position and get paid for it and use their position to get money from abroad, so they should at least try to do their job semi-efficiently.
> 
> And ofcourse I do not trust these Jathedars, they are greedy and fight amongst themselves on a regular basis. Iqbal Singh is a polygamist. They are all after money. They spend most of their time abroad or attending functions. Political motivations control them. I have no reason to trust them. I will only respect those who have earned my respect. Respecting someone just because "you should", isn't reason enough for me.



Vikram,

Guru Fateh.

I have been reading your posts and am a bit puzzled by them. You seem to offer no solution but at the same time you do not want this to be an open debate and now you do not want it behind closed doors either. Now you have gone off track from your original stance for the reasons only known to you.

The first and foremost thing all involved Jathedaars should do is to understand Gurbani in SGGS, our only GURU. After they have done that and are ready to follow the instructions from our only GURU, then the solutions can be found. The first one would be that they would declare their incapability to judge anyone if they are honest enough to follow the the teachings of SGGS, our only GURU.

Then, this can end the charade created by Manmat rather than Gurmat.

This whole "ZEE TV"  drama is only fit for the soap operas. Sikhi does not need that.

Tejwant Singh


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## vikram9274 (Dec 6, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*



Tejwant Singh said:


> Vikram,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



Sir I have offered a solution. I believe that ragi should be allowed to bring a few supporters of his with him. Where there are 5 jathedars, he should be able to bring 3 or 4 people with him. If this is held in front of sangat, can you truly say that you believe that sangat will not interfere in the discussion or start a ruckus? People have fought inside gurdwaras over this issue and done beadbi of SGGS. Holding this in front off 100's of people will not allow for any proper discussion and will only create more controversy and create a mockery of our panth. If they want to hold this in front of sangat, they need to insure that there will be no interference from sangat and that no fights will break out.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 7, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*

By the way.."Tankhah" is the "punishment"...and the "criminal" is called "Tankhaiyah"...
so the title of this thread should use the word "Tankhah"..:happykaur:.....or
Ragi declared Tankhaiyah....


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## spnadmin (Dec 7, 2009)

*Re: Tankhayia Against Ragi Issued*



Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> By the way.."Tankhah" is the "punishment"...and the "criminal" is called "Tankhaiyah"...
> so the title of this thread should use the word "Tankhah"..:happykaur:.....or
> Ragi declared Tankhaiyah....



I know you are right - but the title was copied from the newspaper article which got it wrong.

Correct the title I can do -- Correct the news paper, would it help? :happykaur: And it was panthic.org that goofed!


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## Randip Singh (Dec 7, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*

Lets have an article that states :

*Panthic.org goof yet again on reporting Sikh issue*. 

One final point to note, I agree totally in having open discourse without intimidation or threats. It should be public and not behind closed doors. Guruji ordained Guru Paanth and Guru Granth as guidance. We listen to the Guru Granth openly, so why not the Guru Paanth?


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## vikram9274 (Dec 7, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*



Randip Singh said:


> Lets have an article that states :
> 
> *Panthic.org goof yet again on reporting Sikh issue*.
> 
> One final point to note, I agree totally in having open discourse without intimidation or threats. It should be public and not behind closed doors. Guruji ordained Guru Paanth and Guru Granth as guidance. We listen to the Guru Granth openly, so why not the Guru Paanth?



Right but then you must insure that fights do not break out. If you are going to have an open discussion about this issue at akal takhat you must insure that sanctity of SGGS and the gurdwaras is observed. In todays day and age, it has become obvious that some individuals do not care about that sanctity and will start fights in presence of SGGS and spit on dastars and do beadbi. If an open discussion is to be held at the Akal Takhat, then it must be insured that this will not occur, because if it does, it will be a stain on the panth and will once again turn the Sikhs into laughingstocks.


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## spnadmin (Dec 7, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*

A general question, raised by your observation vikram9274 ji. But my question is really not directed at you personally. 

Why would a closed meeting be less prone or inclined to violence and disrespect than an open meeting? 

I keep reading that closed meetings are better than open meetings. If there is an open meeting there might be violence and disrespect. That part I do understand.  However, why would there be less of a chance of violence at a closed meeting?


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## spnadmin (Dec 7, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*

A bit of an answer to my own question. Closed meetings can be prone to violence. The perfect victim can be the truth. With a secret meeting no one even knows if a meeting took place. 

Here is part of an article by IJ Singh - I just received it minutes ago for uploading - which I will do. But the problem with closed meeetings...

from 
*Let There Be Light*

*<small>by I.J. SINGH</small>*


 There appear to be many procedural failures that one can question in the case of Professor Darshan Singh. 



  The latest, dating from just a few days ago, highlights a lesson that should not be ignored and would be child's play to fix. 



  On Saturday, December 5, 2009, The Akal Takht found Darshan Singh guilty of the charges against him. But the trial never really happened! 



  According to The Akal Takht, Darshan Singh had been summoned but he did not appear on the stipulated date of the trial. In a sense then, he was sentenced in absentia on the charges. I know that sometimes in legal proceedings this is the only option when the accused flees the jurisdiction of the court. 



  Prof. Darshan Singh claims that he was present at the stipulated venue, The Akal Takht, at the scheduled date and time, and the press as well as the sangat was witness to that. He avers that he waited an hour or so and then left. 



  It seems the Jathedars wanted him to appear for a trial _in camera - _that is, behind closed doors, with no press or members of the public present; effectively, a secret trial! - while he wanted an open trial so that the world wide Sikh community could watch the legal proceedings against him. 



  ["_In camera_" is a legal term used for closed trials in situations where, for example, national security is at risk. The term, a Latin phrase, has nothing to do with cameras.] 



  A press release from the Jathedars confirms that their hearings are now routinely held _in camera_ as of the past nearly ten years. Prior to that date all hearings were public - in an open setting. That is, open to the public, open to the press. 



  This makes we wonder. 



  Why on earth would one move towards secret hearings and trials? Why was the open policy changed to secret trials ten years ago?  

sikhchic.com | The Art and Culture of the Diaspora | Let There Be Light


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## vikram9274 (Dec 7, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> A general question, raised by your observation vikram9274 ji. But my question is really not directed at you personally.
> 
> Why would a closed meeting be less prone or inclined to violence and disrespect than an open meeting?
> 
> I keep reading that closed meetings are better than open meetings. If there is an open meeting there might be violence and disrespect. That part I do understand.  However, why would there be less of a chance of violence at a closed meeting?



I am against closed meetings. I think that at the very least, they should allow 2 or 3 people to go inside with Ragi so it is not 5 against one. And if there is an open meeting, they have to insure that violence does not break out. It is a common concept, Forward Panic. In a crowd, one person does something, and in that rush of adrenaline and emotion, other will act. At the same time, in open public, we must also insure that random people do not interfere during the talks. Ragi should be able to state his side without interruptions and same with the jathedars. Where we have seen countless arguments and fights break out over this issue in gurdwaras over the past few years, we have to take steps to insure that this does not occur at the Akal Takhat if the meeting is held in the open.


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## spnadmin (Dec 7, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*

vikram9274 ji

I wish I were permitted to share some of the wonderful essays that I am receiving as part of a yahoo group now discussing this issue. There is no question that we have seen more than our share of public outbursts in public venues, such as gurdwaras. But I have to repeat that in closed meetings, violence can be done to the truth. And is surely has been done in the many historical moments when those holding formal power sought ways to silence the opposition. Closed meetings smell like the Spanish Inquisition, the Star Chamber proceedings, and Stalin's purges. This is not the Sikh way. It is not consistent with Sikh history. And secret meetings are contrary to the our rehat.Truth did not matter. Might made right in those situations. The jathedars do not even have the official power to sit in judgment of any one. They are the sevadhars of the panth, not judge, jury and executioner. 

Do we invite more violence if a meeting is open? That is not the question imho we should ask. The question we should ask is: What is the greater risk to Sikhi? Open meetings where some may act out in anger? or Closed meetings where history can be written by the unworthy?


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## Tejwant Singh (Dec 7, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> vikram9274 ji
> 
> I wish I were permitted to share some of the wonderful essays that I am receiving as part of a yahoo group now discussing this issue. There is no question that we have seen more than our share of public outbursts in public venues, such as gurdwaras. But I have to repeat that in closed meetings, violence can be done to the truth. And is surely has been done in the many historical moments when those holding formal power sought ways to silence the opposition. Closed meetings smell like the Spanish Inquisition, the Star Chamber proceedings, and Stalin's purges. This is not the Sikh way. It is not consistent with Sikh history. And secret meetings are contrary to the our rehat.Truth did not matter. Might made right in those situations. The jathedars do not even have the official power to sit in judgment of any one. They are the sevadhars of the panth, not judge, jury and executioner.
> 
> Do we invite more violence if a meeting is open? That is not the question imho we should ask. The question we should ask is: What is the greater risk to Sikhi? Open meetings where some may act out in anger? or Closed meetings where history can be written by the unworthy?



Narayanjot ji,

Well said.

No one could have put it better. SGGS, our only Guru and Sikh history, remind us quite often that possible that open-mindedness can not be cultivated behind any veil of secrecy. If this occurred then we should also close the four doors  of Harmander Sahib and ignore what they represent as far as Gurmat ideals are concerned.

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 8, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*

Our GURU is Open and available everywhere 24/7

Our Gurmantar is given in OPEN (unlike some others who whisper it in the ear and have to vow to keep it secret even from their wives/sons/daughters etc ).

Our Gurus were OPEN..Our Misls were Open..Our Gurdwaras are OPEN..Our Langgars are OPEN...even the Maharaja Ranjit Singh Darbar was OPEN..(Maharaja used to go out at night dressed in normal ordinary clothes to see for himself his peoples problems etc....

NOTHING ABOUT SIKHI...GURMATT..is Closed/secret/unavailable to all and sundry.

This "closed room" culture of the 5 Paid jathedars began just 10 years ago..( by their own admission to darshan Singh who in his time as Jathedar used the OPEN CONCEPT) in which DEALS were made..saudabazee was carried out, pre-written hukmnamahs were taken out of pockets and read out..convicted rapists were let off with slaps on wrist, ( A Baba convicted in Open Court and sentenced to Jail by an Indian Court was however exonerated by these 5 jThedars) Another Baba caught by the local snagat with solid proofs "counselling single women in motel room" was also exonerated. 

On 5th December TRUTH/SIKHI/GURMATT was murdered in such a closed room. There is definitely something wrong in the State of Denmark...

ATTACHED: a Book in Punjabi (sorry to non-punjabi knowing readers_Dasam Granth dee asleeat..the TRUTH about dsm Granth- a Page by page and word by word analysis of so called dem garnth and Gurbani of SGGS to prove that the dem grnath is NOT Guru Kirt...but a translation of Purans and other Brahmin literature wrotten by others and NOT Guru Sahib.


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## Admin (Dec 8, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*

*Admin Note: Off-Topic Discussion Removed.*


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## vikram9274 (Dec 8, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*

I am not so much worried about the chance of violence breaking out as I am of a discussion not taking place. We must find a way to make sure that the sangat does not constantly interrupt the discussion. Constant interruptions and yelling by sangat could make it hard for a discussion of substance to be held. And we must insure that any beadbi of Gurdwara's or SGGS does not occur. There have been those who have shown that they do not care about respecting the SGGS or Gurdwaras.  If the meeting is to be held openly, then the SGPC/Jathedars need to insure that enough security/personnel are in place to prevent this. The last thing we need is for something violent or disrespect of SGGS or Gurdwara's to occur, which will result in the discussion not taking place, a media debacle, and will consequently just delay these proceedings.


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## ssira (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*

I have tried three times to a comment but it is deleted intentionally by the controller of this thread. Because this is only accepted if you are write in favour of Prof Darshan Singh. You all are Panth Verodhy commentators. I will not even read this any further as I known this will be deleted too.<?"urn:fficeffice" />
 Let me still explain this that when some one is going in front of Panj Piyarey, it is always dealt privately in the closed door, Not in front of media. When Punj Pyarey are present Guru is present. If you are going there with band bajey and media that explain everything what personality are you. I know you will be comment look at the punj piyare who they are. Still I will say it doesn’t meter who they are as long as they are in the Punj Piyrey uniform.


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## vikram9274 (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*



ssira said:


> I have tried three times to a comment but it is deleted intentionally by the controller of this thread. Because this is only accepted if you are write in favour of Prof Darshan Singh. You all are Panth Verodhy commentators. I will not even read this any further as I known this will be deleted too.fficeffice" />
> Let me still explain this that when some one is going in front of Panj Piyarey, it is always dealt privately in the closed door, Not in front of media. When Punj Pyarey are present Guru is present. If you are going there with band bajey and media that explain everything what personality are you. I know you will be comment look at the punj piyare who they are. Still I will say it doesn’t meter who they are as long as they are in the Punj Piyrey uniform.



You are extremely ill-informed. The jathedars are not panj pyare. He is going in front of jathedars. I can wear a military uniform, but that does not make me suited to became a general in the army and command troops. Wearing a Uniform doesn't make you a good person or give you exceptional qualities. Jathedar Iqbal Singh has numerous wives, Jathedar Gurbachan Singh is extremely Greedy as are all the rest, they are not in any terms a reflection of Guru. No one stands for Guru. Guru is SGGS and SGGS only.  And I have said things that question Ragi and my posts have not been deleted. So I don't know what you are talking about. Maybe you should do some more reading on the topic and get your facts straight. Just a suggestion.


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## ssira (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*

I already mention that, that you will be saying about these panj pyarey. Here is the same line just in case you missed that.(  I know you will comment look at the punj piyare who they are) It is not first time i have seen this. People talking about panj piyarey Oh I know what they do in their real life. I think you should wake up and learn what sikhi actual teaches. Nimrta, Haleemi. Do you see that when he go to Jatheydars. They are top ranking authority in the Sikh Panth. I am ill informed, yes I am Ok with that.<?"urn:fficeffice" />


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## vikram9274 (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*

Dude, who made them top ranking authority? Last time I checked, Guru Gobind Singh Ji said the SGGS is Guru and know is above that. They are only human. Stop treating them like they are above that. And Panj Pyare are different from Jathedars. Two totally different things.


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## ssira (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*

First of all WGJKK WGJKF S Vikram Singh JI<?"urn:fficeffice" />
You called me Dude? Ok because I think Sikh's are brothers and sisters. 
Now who made them authority. Ask any one Punj Akal Takhat de Jathedar are the living figure authority that's why they order any one who do not follow the Sikhi rules and regulation so called mariada also. I did not say that they are higher authority than SGGS Ji. I do respect them a lot more than an ordinary Singh. When they are all five together to do any decision I consider them as Panj Pyarey. Now there are lot of Sikh’s out there who may not agree with this. It is up to them. But I am sure that this what Panth Think too with a greater regard.


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## spnadmin (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: Tankhah Against Ragi Issued*



ssira said:


> I have tried three times to a comment but it is deleted intentionally by the controller of this thread. Because this is only accepted if you are write in favour of Prof Darshan Singh. You all are Panth Verodhy commentators. I will not even read this any further as I known this will be deleted too.fficeffice" />




*To clarify,* ssira ji *This is an admin note*. As far as I can tell, tonight, nothing that you have posted has been deleted. When there is a deletion, the proper thing is for the admin or moderator to leave a note in the thread stating the reasons for the deletion. In the past few days, I have myself deleted your posts because they were duplicate/triplicate comments. *Please see Posts 46, 47 and 48 in the thread, Controversy Surrounding Professor Darshan Singh.* In other words you posted identical comments each time. Duplicate, triplicate, quadruplicate comments are always deleted. Narayanjot Kaur.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 9, 2009)

The Takhat Jathedars are...PAID...APPOINTED ..and can be SACKED...IMMEDIATELY via just a Phone call from the "Master". The PANJ PIYARE are SELECTED by the SANGAT from among the best rehitwaan pooran Gursikhs...SO...YES..the Takhat Jathedars and the Panj Piayare are NOT the same thing at all....Panj Piayre dont get paid..are not appointed by nayone..and cannot be summarily SACKED by anyone.

1. This Time the raola rappa is about the Five paid Servants of the SGPC..sitting in a closed room behind closed doors and implying that they were the AKAL TAKHAT.

2. A few Yeras ago..the SACKED Akal Takhat jathedar Pooran Singh who offically declared Sikhs as Aulaad..progeny of LUV and Kush of Ramayan fame...once declared a so called Akal Takhat - HUKMNAMAH Excommunicating HIS BOSS..Bibi jagir Kaur President of SGPC over the nanaksahi Calendar Issue... while away at POONA in a meeting with RSS GUESS what..who was the One who GOT the BOOT ?? Yes it was Jathedar pooran Singh Luv Kush....is that great or what ??? SIKHS forget so easily !!! This particular Akal takhat hukmanamah appeared on AT Letterhead BY FAX..as it was prepared in a Taxi while in Poona !! No one knows who the other FOUR "singh sahibs" were ??? SIKHS FORGET SO EASILY !! YES they do....

3. Just do a quick check on just How many Jathedars were SACKED unceremoniously...Can a PANJ PIYARA be SACKED like that ???

4. IN an autobiography of Master Tara Singh i read somewhere Akalis were about to sit down and have a chicken drumstick..when one said..Master Ji..I cannot eat meat as the Panj Piayars told me so....WHATS the Big Problem replied Master Ji...just a phone call and a New Panj Piayar group was summoned..and they told this Akali..its OK to eat Jhatka Chicken. Period. Even NOW..the AKJ Panj..Damdami Taksaal panj..etc Strictly PROHIBIT all MEAT during Pahul ceremony..while the SGPC/AKAL TAKHAT and all historical Gurdawara PANJ say NO SUCH THING !! AKJ Panj give out gurmantar dirr in  aspecial way..other Panj dont !! So there are PANJ..and there are PANJ...and soon there will be "PANJ"...:happysinghuch..ouch..ouch..TRUTH HURTS....but medicine is always bitter and is necessary to heal...

5. SIKHS have been tolerating all this milawatt and adulteration and disrespect of their GURU SGGS for too long...Time has come to kick the dhillarrs out and restore the Supremacy of GURUBANI/GURU/SGGS :happy::happysingh:


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## ssira (Dec 9, 2009)

If the previous are crooks the present one automatically become crooks. I don't think so.<?"urn:fficeffice" />
 
I do agree with you if something is wrong done it should be brought to intension and in closed door should be discussed to stop it.
A Sikh asked another Sikh for shelter and during night time he Stoll the jewellery. In the morning when saying farewell the box of jewellery fell. The Host Sikh pick up and say this is your please take it although he know he Stoll it. You know why to save Guru Nanak's home respect.
What we are doing here to save Sikh path respect.


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## vikram9274 (Dec 10, 2009)

ssira said:


> If the previous are crooks the present one automatically become crooks. I don't think so.fficeffice" />
> 
> I do agree with you if something is wrong done it should be brought to intension and in closed door should be discussed to stop it.
> A Sikh asked another Sikh for shelter and during night time he Stoll the jewellery. In the morning when saying farewell the box of jewellery fell. The Host Sikh pick up and say this is your please take it although he know he Stoll it. You know why to save Guru Nanak's home respect.
> What we are doing here to save Sikh path respect.



I don't really understand what you saying or what your point is but i'll go off of what i got from what you wrote. Well, Iqbal Singh (Jathedar Patna Sahib) has two wives. Gurbachan Singh (Jathedar Akal Takhat) visited the Dera of Chicago Baba (who was caught in motel with a woman other than his wife in 2005) for money and even did his dirty work by going to the house of someone who has filed a lawsuit against the pakhandi Chicago Baba and threatened them with a summon to the Akal Takhat if they didn't take the lawsuit back. SO he is corrupt. Meanwhile, Jathedar of Hazoor Sahib and Iqbal Singh are in constant controversy and involved in in-fighting with the other takhats. I just gave you numerous examples of how the PRESENT Jathedars are corrupt and greedy. I don't really get the point of your story so I don't how to respond to that, and I didn't understand what you wrote about "closed doors" and "intension" either so yeah.


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