# Yoga V/s Simran V/s Meditation?



## Seeker2013 (Jun 21, 2015)

So today is International Yoga Day. Yoga is particularly popularized in India by yogi ramdev baba .
There are various breathing exercises . My mom does them and says she feels better.
But I told her naam simran is above all of it.




 

What do you think ? Is it even fair to compare yogic exercises (which are very popular thesedays for physical and mental well being) with naam sadhana ( which doesn't get anywhere close media coverage as yoga does)

gurbani says "uchhe upar ucha nau" (highest of all is name of god) .
"sarab rog ka aukhad naam, kalyan roop mangal gun gaam" (name of god is medicine of all diseases, chanting of it is auspicious )

What do you guys just think about it ? like is it even fair to compare yoga and simran ? does simran give health benefits too ? then why simran is nowhere as popular as yoga is ?


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## akaal (Jun 21, 2015)

Yes, Yoga Day indeed. Seems like punjabi politicians are also pushing for to celebrate it more openly in the state. Yoga is cool, but it's become a general term for a wide range of regiments involving physical and mental exercise. From bikram yoga to the 3HO stuff. 

Simran i'm sure brings the benefits of meditation. There's quite a degree of flexibility with which you can do simran, make it a breathing exercise for example, so I'm sure simran gives you a lot of the benefits of with the minimal amount of overhead. That's what sikhi is pretty much. The straightest, shortest path to truth. No need to hang yourself upside down and what not. But hey, all power to you if that's your thing 

Having said that, yoga is probably more complementary to simran than a replacement. While yoga does literally mean uniting with brahma, most people view it as a form of exercise as opposed to utilizing the time to connect with the one. Simrans got you covered on that. Stick to yoga for the exercise.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 22, 2015)

I personally think they are both a monumental waste of time if the goal is mental advancement or increased understanding. 

As Sikhs, I feel we should embrace life head on and not have the need for escapism via mental and physical gymnastics, whether in the name of goddy or not.


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## chazSingh (Jun 22, 2015)

harry haller said:


> I personally think they are both a monumental waste of time if the goal is mental advancement or increased understanding.
> 
> As Sikhs, I feel we should embrace life head on and not have the need for escapism via mental and physical gymnastics, whether in the name of goddy or not.




escapism? 

many people get attached to a painting...spend ridiculous amounts of money obtaining it, but very few turn their head and look at the creator of the painting...you will understand more of the painting if you understand the painter...that's the true value of the painting.

that;s the value of Simran...

i'm only skimming the surface as of yet...but boy, there is so much more to us than we unfortunately believe...so much more...life is short...don;t you want to know the full truth...when will the opportunity arise again my friend???


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 22, 2015)

Yoga is OK as a physical exercise but that was not its origin.Yoga was meant for "Attaining god" which is futile. Guru Nanak explains that in Sidh Gost.

The saddest part is Yogi Bhajan, the founder of 3HO took Sikhi Baana and made Kundalini Yoga as part of Sikh Dharma, his sect and used Gurbani with it. Kundalini is even mocked in Gurbani to show that the connection with The Source- Ik Ong Kaar and yoga are meaningless.


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## chazSingh (Jun 22, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Yoga is OK as a physical exercise but that was not its origin.Yoga was meant for "Attaining god" which is futile. Guru Nanak explains that in Sidh Gost.
> 
> The saddest part is Yogi Bhajan, the founder of 3HO took Sikhi Baana and made Kundalini Yoga as part of Sikh Dharma, his sect and used Gurbani with it. Kundalini is even mocked in Gurbani to show that the connection with The Source- Ik Ong Kaar and yoga are meaningless.



Hi Tejwant Ji,

is the natural process of the rising kundalini mocked? or the actual kundalini Yoga exercises?

*I do not partake in any form of kundalini yoga exercises*...but i know for sure that an energy does rise from base of spine moving up...from personal first hand experience during very simple simran of Waheguru...

this all happens in this wonderful human body (gurudwara) that waheguru gives us...all the processes that occur within it occur as per His will


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## Harry Haller (Jun 22, 2015)

I would like to point out that this thread is about yoga and naam simran, and as there is no primary topic to deviate from, the matter can be fully debated. 

Let us keep personalities out of this please, it is a passionate subject on which many, myself included, have strong views.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 22, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> escapism?


 
you chant words, I used to hold a bong, we all end up in the same place, deep inside our minds



chazSingh said:


> many people get attached to a painting...spend ridiculous amounts of money obtaining it, but very few turn their head and look at the creator of the painting...you will understand more of the painting if you understand the painter...that's the true value of the painting.



but Chazji, how do you know its not just your minds playing tricks on you, many a man has spent a night on the bong, and come to fantastic realisations, which unfortunately outside of the 'bong time' make little sense, I can feel Creator inside of me, I do not need to get high with him to get any closer, I find actions take care of that, unfortunately that also works in reverse, depending on the action.





chazSingh said:


> i'm only skimming the surface as of yet...but boy, there is so much more to us than we unfortunately believe...so much more...life is short...don;t you want to know the full truth...when will the opportunity arise again my friend???



Chazji, if your happy, then I am happy mate, enjoy your journey, and never stop sharing it

its just not for me


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## chazSingh (Jun 23, 2015)

Harry Ji you asked* "Chazji, how do you know its not just your minds playing tricks on you, many a man has spent a night on the bong, and come to fantastic realisations, which unfortunately outside of the 'bong time' make little sense,"*

How do you know that you have woken up after a dream and are back into reality...? you just know don't you?

believe me...you just know


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## Seeker2013 (Jun 23, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Harry Ji you asked* "Chazji, how do you know its not just your minds playing tricks on you, many a man has spent a night on the bong, and come to fantastic realisations, which unfortunately outside of the 'bong time' make little sense,"*
> 
> How do you know that you have woken up after a dream and are back into reality...? you just know don't you?
> 
> believe me...you just know



what does it feel like when kundalini rises ? is it a scary experience or a soothing one ? does the energy rising feel cold or warm ?
try to describe , now don't you again turn down our requests with "you have to feel it to know it" . PLEASE 

and does it go back down . They say once it goes totally up in the crown chakra, the shakti (female , energy ) merges with the shiva (male, consciousness) in the crown chakra and that is enlightenment , moksh, mukti, brahm gyan , watever u call it


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## chazSingh (Jun 23, 2015)

Seeker2013 said:


> what does it feel like when kundalini rises ? is it a scary experience or a soothing one ? does the energy rising feel cold or warm ?
> try to describe , now don't you again turn down our requests with "you have to feel it to know it" . PLEASE
> 
> and does it go back down . They say once it goes totally up in the crown chakra, the shakti (female , energy ) merges with the shiva (male, consciousness) in the crown chakra and that is enlightenment , moksh, mukti, brahm gyan , watever u call it




there are hundreds of websites and people descriptions out there....what will my description do for you?
i was like you..i spend hours in my work office reading and reading until my face turned blue...where did it get me? no where...after all that i still knew nothing..

i started doing simran during the day.....also lying in bed before i went to sleep...then also during those moments lying in bed when i woke up during the night...i had a heavy heart...it needed soothing...

eventually from somewhere i found the will to get up during a very special period of the day...amrit vela...and i haven't looked back since...yes i fall back into my bad habits from time to time...but i always return...because once you taste it..for real...for yourself...no other taste in the world compares


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 23, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Hi Tejwant Ji,
> 
> is the natural process of the rising kundalini mocked? or the actual kundalini Yoga exercises?
> 
> ...



Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Just type *Kundalini* in the following and you will get all the shabads relating to Kundalini. Please share your findings with us.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?S=y

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## LSD (Jun 23, 2015)

yoga and simran have the SAME end goal.
So does Tibetan Buddhism, Taoism and eastern meditations.

Only difference is the technique in simran is jap....jap of gurmantar.

Dont get confused when people start comparing yogmat and gurmat and saying that goal is different. Do these people really think that no one ever merged with God,Lord, waheguru ??

Patanjali yoga has 8 limbs or 8 angs,...and asanas or physical positioning is just ONE of the 8 or 1/8th.
But some fools in the west and especially some sikhs think that yoga is all about postures and asanas!!!

so MR seekr.if u wanna take path of yoga >>>then go ahead But if you wanna stikck to sikhi>then do simran. and do gurmantar jap.
it's sad that so many Sikhs don't even understand what simran is and what kundalini yoga is. especially some guys on this forum who claiming to be Sikh.
Even many akj and taksali Sikhs go around claiming that yogmat is completely alien to gurmat>>>they don't even realise that the sass sass simran  is  nothing but a specific Pranayma that prepares you for deeper stages just like yoga.

Bhagat Kabeer descriptions in gurbani are same as patanjali yoga angs cuz tha that is what he practiced but he took his ''ram ram' japa all the way just like gurmat jap

u ask about kundalini rising>> this is just a term used in yoga but we all humans>>so the effects are still the same whether you Christian monk, Taoist, Buddhist, hindu or Sikh practicing Nanakjee's way.

We all have dormant/asleep kundalini>>>>and we can all make it rise with some effort.
There is No enlightenment without kundalini rising.>>>>again same thing has different names and descriptions...you can call it

Chi= if you Chinese,
Ki=if you Japanese,
Christian monks= call it the holy spirit.>>>I say Christian monks cuz they are the ones that are abiasees>>sadly most of Christian religion don't understand real meanings of bible.
It's very sad that Sikhs are going in the same direction >>especially with all the missionary teachings r

Christian also refer to it as =fire of Pentecost
jews say=Shekinah and same term is in kabaalah as well
Moses and serpent of brass descriptions in bible is about the same energy with 2 forces of shiva and Shakti.

My friend a native indian has said that they have the same spiritual belief of this serpent energy but they are strictly forbidden to say it's name (ever wondered why they never give direct names but descriptive identities as names?)
It is considered the purest energy of the almighty universal power of the lord and their description is that is the ""unpronounceable/indescribable energy">>>>>>very similar to gurbani and what Sikhs label as unstruck-anhad >>look at describing in mool mantar>

Even Freemasons call it the ''SPIRIT FIRE" and their  number of 32 degrees is about 32 segment of spine.

It is the SAME ENERGY BUT WITHE DIFFERENT NAMES.
Subtle and invisible energies like Electricity and Magnetism are easily accepted because of their common applications but the foolish people of world start doubting any God-divine energies in our body

Kundalini rising is a gradual process and doesn't  happen all at once. >>>before anyone ask>>Yeh I have had almost full experience.
I've done nearly all the spiritual practices above and am talking about own applications and experience>>and not just what I believe in


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## LSD (Jun 23, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Chaz Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...




this been done many time on forum before>>>I've read forum for while as a visitor.
You seem to always repeat yourself>>>therefore why not see your interpretation of disbelieving.>>
one by one >I can easily challenge your arguments


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## Tejwant Singh (Jun 23, 2015)

LSD said:


> this been done many time on forum before>>>I've read forum for while as a visitor.
> You seem to always repeat yourself>>>therefore why not see your interpretation of disbelieving.>>
> one by one >I can easily challenge your arguments



We interact in this forum, just in case you did not know. I do not remember repeating what I just said but that is irrelevant anyway.

Enjoy your journey.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 23, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> believe me...you just know



standard reply used also by most drug users


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## Harry Haller (Jun 23, 2015)

LSD said:


> yoga and simran have the SAME end goal.


agreed, sorry can you clarify what the end goal is again?



LSD said:


> Dont get confused when people start comparing yogmat and gurmat and saying that goal is different. Do these people really think that no one ever merged with God,Lord, waheguru ??



Ah but you see we are Sikhs, we were born merged, just unconnected. 


LSD said:


> it's sad that so many Sikhs don't even understand what simran is and what kundalini yoga is. especially some guys on this forum who claiming to be Sikh.



its also equally as sad that so many Sikhs chase after spiritual escapism when we are supposed to be householders. Could I just ask what your qualifications are in order that you can ascertain who has the right tio claim themselves as Sikh or not?



LSD said:


> they don't even realise that the sass sass simran is nothing but a specific Pranayma that prepares you for deeper stages just like yoga.



I would buy that


LSD said:


> There is No enlightenment without kundalini rising.



May I counter with 'there can be No enlightenment whilst chasing kundalinis' btw I am quite impressed with some of the kundalini massage parlours on the internet, although the women on the website do not look particularly spiritual to me, how one looks spiritual in a leather catsuit and boots is probably quite hard though. 



LSD said:


> but the foolish people of world start doubting any God-divine energies in our body



thats a good start for debate, call anyone who disagrees with you a fool! can we please address the issue as passionately as you wish, there is no need to insult people, try sarcasm, it works for me



LSD said:


> Yeh I have had almost full experience.



you do not write in a particular enlightened fashion, if you have had full experience, why would you wish to call those that reject it fools? what has this experience done for you? has it made you a better person?


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## Harry Haller (Jun 24, 2015)

LSD said:


> I can easily challenge your arguments



please do, so that we may all learn


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## LSD (Jun 24, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> We interact in this forum, just in case you did not know. I do not remember repeating what I just said but that is irrelevant anyway.
> 
> Enjoy your journey.



please show me where you actually participated in the <<listening>> and learning part of <interacting> ?


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## chazSingh (Jun 24, 2015)

harry haller said:


> standard reply used also by most drug users



Well then try Simran yourself Harry Ji....i mean in the way that gurbani describes...with love...deep longing, during Amrit Vela...pour your heart out to your creator...and do it regularly...daily...

let him open the universe up for you right before your very eyes...

experience it for yourself... otherwise all this talk about drugs and similarities are pointless..

*i've tried both....*

during my university years i have taken heroin, cocaine, weed, smoked cigarettes, drunk huge amounts of alcohol...
and now i don;t do any of those and thankfully Waheguru has taken my arm and i Do Simran and Seva instead.

*I have experienced both sides...i can tell the difference...*

*maybe you should also...before making such comments...because they serve absolutely no purpose at all...*

its like telling someone who has climbed mount everest that it can;t be windy up there  how the hell would anyone know that...other than the person who has made the effort to reach the peak.

God Bless


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## chazSingh (Jun 24, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Chaz Singh ji,
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> ...



your very typical response Tejwant Ji....i wouldn't expect anything more or anything less from you 



God Bless...


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## LSD (Jun 24, 2015)

"harry haller==agreed, sorry can you clarify what the end goal is again?

if you don't know the goal of what gurbani teaches then start from the beginning.

Harry=Ah but you see we are Sikhs, we were born merged, just unconnected.
Who told you that or is that just your own illusion ?
Where in gurbani does it show that you don't need to merge ?>cuz you already the complete truth. ?

Harry= also equally as sad that so many Sikhs chase after spiritual escapism when we are supposed to be householders. Could I just ask what your qualifications are in order that you can ascertain who has the right tio claim themselves as Sikh or not?
Never read in gurbani telling me to be householder INSTEAD of spiritual.
I have no qualification>>education>>>except all boys school>>learnt to defend and look after myself>>You wanna know I'm Sikh or not??>>you casting doubt on amirt sanchar or the panj piaery that were pure guru saroop that day ???

Harry=May I counter with 'there can be No enlightenment whilst chasing kundalinis' btw I am quite impressed with some of the kundalini massage parlours on the internet, although the women on the website do not look particularly spiritual to me, how one looks spiritual in a leather catsuit and boots is probably quite hard though.

Kundalini and massage mix may exist in your ilussonary world..>>>What do you really know about kundalini and enlightenment??>>>not a lot I gther>>so why not listen, read and learn first from the ones that do claim to know something??
Bringing in porn and tantra to dodge the real issue and question of op I'm answering to is a sign of your own insecurity>>>


Harry=thats a good start for debate, call anyone who disagrees with you a fool! can we please address the issue as passionately as you wish, there is no need to insult people, try sarcasm, it works for me
Have a look and search <<fool> quotes in gurbani. A fool is a fool as per gurbani tuks.


Harry=you do not write in a particular enlightened fashion, if you have had full experience, why would you wish to call those that reject it fools? what has this experience done for you? has it made you a better person?

I'm not educated to write in fashion<<<that has nothing to do with sikhi faith.>>>and no, how can someone dedicated to abiaas> judge themselves to see see if they are better person??
Only fools judge themselves>> I believe and walk towards the truth>>when I get there in full completeness>> I don't need to tell anyone>>cuz there will be no <I>......."I" is ego. Gurbani tells me loud and clear that to merge into Truth of Waheguroo>> the Ego has to be shed>>it is ALl to be tuhin tuhin tuhin


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## chazSingh (Jun 24, 2015)

LSD said:


> yoga and simran have the SAME end goal.
> So does Tibetan Buddhism, Taoism and eastern meditations.
> 
> Only difference is the technique in simran is jap....jap of gurmantar.
> ...



excellent post ji...enjoyed reading it.

every culture has had some success raising their kundalini...and other spiritual practices...the one difference in Gurbani is surrendering to the power of the Shabad that resonated within us...the final destination cannot be reached without the shabad pulling us up like an express elevator..no effort or practice or method can make this happen...just pure surrendering of Ego 

this is what i believe anyway from my own experiences...

God Bless on your journey...your doing great by the sounds of it


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## LSD (Jun 24, 2015)

harry haller said:


> standard reply used also by most drug users



What do you realy know about drugs?? and have you ever been seriously hooked on anything where you must dose up in morning and every few hours ??
>>>well mr Harry>> I've been there for many years on pharma grade stuff 20 times worse than street heroin>

you have no idea what you are saying >>cuz I can tell you way much more about drugs>>and meditation >>this is not from education> but my very long experiences>>

meditation is no escapism like drugs >>>go tell that to the  thousands of suffering junkies>addicts in all major cities>>>your statement is insensitive and predjudice to people that are stuck in their own internal drug war>> shame on you again


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## sikhing444 (Jun 24, 2015)

LSD said:


> yoga and simran have the SAME end goal.
> So does Tibetan Buddhism, Taoism and eastern meditations.
> 
> Only difference is the technique in simran is jap....jap of gurmantar.
> ...


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## Harry Haller (Jun 24, 2015)

LSD said:


> "harry haller==agreed, sorry can you clarify what the end goal is again?
> 
> if you don't know the goal of what gurbani teaches then start from the beginning.


 you said  yoga and simran have the SAME end goal.I want to know what goal.





LSD said:


> Harry=Ah but you see we are Sikhs, we were born merged, just unconnected.
> Who told you that or is that just your own illusion ?
> Where in gurbani does it show that you don't need to merge ?>cuz you already the complete truth. ?



no one told me that, I would have thought it quite obvious, creator is in everything, everywhere, it must also be in us, 


LSD said:


> Harry= also equally as sad that so many Sikhs chase after spiritual escapism when we are supposed to be householders. Could I just ask what your qualifications are in order that you can ascertain who has the right tio claim themselves as Sikh or not?
> Never read in gurbani telling me to be householder INSTEAD of spiritual.
> I have no qualification>>education>>>except all boys school>>learnt to defend and look after myself>>You wanna know I'm Sikh or not??>>you casting doubt on amirt sanchar or the panj piaery that were pure guru saroop that day ???



we are supposed to be householders as well as spiritual, I do not recall using the word instead


LSD said:


> Harry=May I counter with 'there can be No enlightenment whilst chasing kundalinis' btw I am quite impressed with some of the kundalini massage parlours on the internet, although the women on the website do not look particularly spiritual to me, how one looks spiritual in a leather catsuit and boots is probably quite hard though.
> 
> Kundalini and massage mix may exist in your ilussonary world..>>>What do you really know about kundalini and enlightenment??>>>not a lot I gther>>so why not listen, read and learn first from the ones that do claim to know something??
> Bringing in porn and tantra to dodge the real issue and question of op I'm answering to is a sign of your own insecurity>>>


I guess when you say 'the ones that claim to know something' you mean yourself?


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## Harry Haller (Jun 24, 2015)

LSD said:


> What do you realy know about drugs?? and have you ever been seriously hooked on anything where you must dose up in morning and every few hours ??
> >>>well mr Harry>> I've been there for many years on pharma grade stuff 20 times worse than street heroin>
> 
> you have no idea what you are saying >>cuz I can tell you way much more about drugs>>and meditation >>this is not from education> but my very long experiences>>
> ...



yes, I have been seriously hooked on most things addictive, thank you


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## LSD (Jun 24, 2015)

There is a huge difference between recreational use>getting addicted to the thrill>>to>> being fully dependent and having no other means to get by.
You dont seem a deep enough thinker to have gone down to depths of hell of addiction>>OD'd>>get a clot>>hemorrhage>>be on life support machine.>>>>the few I know that do manage to come back from there>>evaluate all life carefully>>>start thinking deeper>>or simply return back and end up dead.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 24, 2015)

LSDji

first many thanks for keeping to black, its just makes admin life a bit easier, people tend to associate red or red colours with moderating. 

For your information I have nearly died 18 times, but I cannot see any point in turning this into a competition to see who was the biggest druggie

now, if we could please keep personalities out of this, this is not about you or me, if you have something to say, to debate, if you have something to bring to the table, please share it and we can discuss, that is how we learn. 

However many times we have each nearly died, what drugs we took, how many women we slept with is merely lip service to our ego. 

any further deviation from topic will be deleted, thank you


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## Original (Jun 24, 2015)

LSD said:


> yoga and simran have the SAME end goal.
> So does Tibetan Buddhism, Taoism and eastern meditations.
> 
> Only difference is the technique in simran is jap....jap of gurmantar.
> ...





LSD said:


> yoga and simran have the SAME end goal.
> So does Tibetan Buddhism, Taoism and eastern meditations.
> 
> Only difference is the technique in simran is jap....jap of gurmantar.
> ...



Dear LSD

Very well put, but perhaps not all said; beautifully drafted! 

Knowledge is to know that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is to know not to cut it with fruit salad. Your writing reflects your knowledge, wisdom will come with age. That is not to say, you're not wise, but rather, to nudge you to refrain from overtone exposure in a family-knit environment [SPN] - mark of a tolerant Sikh.

I cannot add anything to what you've said because the "body" of your argument is in line with traditional Sikh thought. If anything, caution must be had because some of the participators have their own view and verdict. They mustn't be discouraged but encouraged to challenge, to reflect, to question Nanak's Sikhi so that, their personal inclinations can be openly discussed and debated in light of SGGSJ. Sikhs don't believe in indoctrinating or convincing people of their way of life - they are but living examples where behaviours and civil conduct reflect their true identity. They become objects of admiration and respect as a result [I'm being an idealist].

Sikh by definition is he/she who accepts all of humanity as one. Whether that'd be, European, Japanese, African , Brahman or Abrahamic . Different sects or interpretations cannot move the true Sikh for the connection is with the "word" and the word is "Waheguru [for a Sikh]. Piece meal inclusion and exclusion of Sikh tenets by aspiring souls must also be welcomed because all are seekers of the one truth - "satnam", and have a right to a personal relationship with Waheguru Ji.

Spiritual Sikhism befalls the few. It's not everyone's cup of tea, situations and circumstances drives one to spiritual heights. And, it's not a moot question where adversarial procedure lays the law for determination, but is in fact, one of "evolved" disposition. Moreover, spirituality is indeed difficult, since it is seldom practiced, for if spirituality lay ready to hand and could be discovered without great labour, how is it possible that it should be neglected almost by everybody ? LSD, consider yourself blessed, definitely a reward for good deeds. It is through people like you, do Nanak and authors of SGGSJ get to speak the language of "love"- spiritual wisdom.

Moving on to the real deal, yoga v simran - beautiful subject, feel like doing a volume. For now I'll skim through.

In essence, both yoga and simran are the one and the same - stairway to Godhead. Literal interpretation of yoga is union with God. Yoga is for the outer-body, Simran [remembrance of God] is for the inner stillness of the mind - aim of both is to connect with the universe, creative energy, Waheguru, etc. One must discipline the outer body to accommodate the inner journey without any disturbances, that is, bodily itches, aches, pains, etc. Only when the mind is still the penny drops. The body becomes non-existent [try it, if in doubt], consciousness expands and reality of the beyond is experienced. God is not after all an unrealisable object living behind the clouds, but our very dearest and nearest possession in whom we live, move and have our being. He who realises this truth becomes one with truth [merges with satnam]. Authors of SGGSJ speaks beautiful of it. [*EDIT]* These experiences are not confined to space, time, nor any particulars, but can arrest the aspirant unannounced via gurmantra chant. More commonly referred to as "state of grace". 

*Nanak and the Yogis
*
Sidh Gosht, a dialogue in which the yogis ask some basic questions of Gur Nanak re his spiritual philosophy. It went something like this -

*Yogi *- how the sea of life is to be crossed O'Nanak ?
*Nanak* - live like the lotus flower or the duck. Both are residents of water yet they remain high n dry. Similarly, you O' sadhus detach from this here physical and attach with the spiritual.

The Yogi moves on to give his own views on yoga and how societal life is corruptive for the mind; towns and highways should be shun and retreat to forests and jungles is the real deal for union with the Lord. Nanak replies, there is nothing wrong with the hustle bustle of city life provided one exercise bit of caution and reflection on the holy name. What is required is not physical distance from the allurements of urbanisation, but freedom from temptations of the mind. Guru Nanak goes on to explain how meditation on nam simran is the wearing of earrings, seeing God in all things is putting on shaded garments. What can make human free is the Lord, for He is the Truth as is His name [satnam].

Nanak advances his point subtly and effortlessly. When the word has been realised "within", says Nanak, it is as, if  pervading the entire universe, just like the air in our atmosphere. The God realised soul transcends the world of multiplicity and duality into that of unity. The One, the exalted soul perceives, is without form, shape and colour - Satnam.

Opinion

Page 1429 of SGGSJ speaks of, thal vich tin vastu pai'O, sat, santokh and *"vichar"*
Thal in this instance is the heart - emphasis on vichar [construe it to mean deep thought] is directed  towards the seeking soul. In other words chew on the "philosophy" of Nanak to make in-roads to connect with. Central to all of Nanak's Sikhi is "love" - gloss it up how you like.

Goodnight and Godbless

PS I've been  politely advised by a dear participator of my "old habits die hard" syndrome in addressing people and certain social groups inappropriately. For those of you who may have taken offence to me addressing you as "son", or "gora" in my communications, can assure you was a term of endearment. So use to saying "puttar". Please forgive me.


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## Brother Onam (Jul 9, 2015)

Sat Sri Akaal
If you'll forgive me for being a bit irreverent, I think we Sikhs could use a little lifting. One of the most crucial challenges in spiritual life is to break through the Maya of seeing our world in the mundane. If we only knew, I believe we are surrounded by so much wonder and a realm of pure sacredness, but to recognize the sacredness and matchless beauty of this Creation is a deliberate struggle; it's too easy to go through this life focused on the mundane, the material, the low.
When we go to Gurdwara, if you'll forgive me, I feel most of us are there still in the everyday mindset of mundane survival; few people exhibit the vibe of really tasting the Amrit and really dwelling in the conscious awareness of Har Har Har. This is not unique to Sikhs, as I said, for all people it is most difficult to extricate from Maya and make real contact with the transcendent Sacred; to be fully aware of Waheguru in ecstatic nearness.
We are quick to mock Kundalini Yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan, and to my mind it's true that maybe 80% of what he taught was mumbo-jumbo, but I believe he was onto something. As one who has had occasion to do Kundalini Yoga on and off for a few years I must say, there is something very legitimate behind it.
When simran is combined with deliberate and 'scientific' techniques of intense breathing, movement, energy-flowing, it can lead to genuine break-through Har-awareness. I've been in Kundalini Yoga sessions where in the course of doing intense yogic simran,  I emerged feeling ecstatic, exalted, thankful and almost 'born-again'. This is not a feeling I sense in the average Gurdwara full of worshippers who, as I said, seem to be there more in a spirit of mundane duty than to truly immerse in the Amrit of Waheguru consciousness.
As I said, this is not an endorsement of 3HO or any other yoga school, but rather an appeal to be willing to consider that there may indeed be aspects of some yogic teachings that may help us break through the mental/spiritual captivity that this mundane consciousness is home to us.


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## chazSingh (Jul 9, 2015)

Brother Onam said:


> Sat Sri Akaal
> If you'll forgive me for being a bit irreverent, I think we Sikhs could use a little lifting. One of the most crucial challenges in spiritual life is to break through the Maya of seeing our world in the mundane. If we only knew, I believe we are surrounded by so much wonder and a realm of pure sacredness, but to recognize the sacredness and matchless beauty of this Creation is a deliberate struggle; it's too easy to go through this life focused on the mundane, the material, the low.
> When we go to Gurdwara, if you'll forgive me, I feel most of us are there still in the everyday mindset of mundane survival; few people exhibit the vibe of really tasting the Amrit and really dwelling in the conscious awareness of Har Har Har. This is not unique to Sikhs, as I said, for all people it is most difficult to extricate from Maya and make real contact with the transcendent Sacred; to be fully aware of Waheguru in ecstatic nearness.
> We are quick to mock Kundalini Yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan, and to my mind it's true that maybe 80% of what he taught was mumbo-jumbo, but I believe he was onto something. As one who has had occasion to do Kundalini Yoga on and off for a few years I must say, there is something very legitimate behind it.
> ...




i agree wholeheartedly...

while i don;t do any type of yoga exercises...or made any effort to learn them... I can conclude that kundalini energy rising...is true....100%...it is something that will occur in all of us that so wishes to walk on this path to experiencing the truth...

in my humble opinion...all the yoga exercises, all the breathing techniques...or my very simple waheguru simram...help to achieve single mindedness...a focussed mind...and it is through this focused mind that things start to happen and the energy within starts to move freely and through all the channels of the body...

in my humble opinion it is this single pointed thought...single mindedness that is the step up the spiritual ladder so to speak...the mind needs to be able to look within without the bombardment of thoughts and enticement of creation 

god bless


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 19, 2015)

Pose Exercises=Asan
Breathing Exercises=Pranayam

Yog=Simran. They are almost interchangeable.

Take out 20 minutes to read the earliest known text, 2000 year old manuscripts on the science of Yog, called 'Yog Sutra of Patanjali'.
You can read it here - http://www.ashtangayoga.info/source-texts/yoga-sutra-patanjali/

The translation isn't perfect as any text, regardless it's a good start for beginners.

 अथ योगानुशासनम् ॥१॥
atha yoga-anuśāsanam ||1||
Yoga in the here and now: an introduction to the study and practice of yoga ||1|| 

 योगश्चित्तवृत्तिनिरोधः ॥२॥
yogaś-citta-vṛtti-nirodhaḥ ||2||
When you are in a state of yoga, all misconceptions (vrittis) that can exist in the mutable aspect of human beings (chitta) disappear. ||2|| 

 तदा द्रष्टुः स्वरूपेऽवस्थानम् ॥३॥
tadā draṣṭuḥ svarūpe-'vasthānam ||3||
For finding our true self (drashtu) entails insight into our own nature. ||3|| 

 वृत्ति सारूप्यमितरत्र ॥४॥
vṛtti sārūpyam-itaratra ||4||
Lacking that, misconceptions (vritti) skew our perceptions. ||4|| 

 वृत्तयः पञ्चतय्यः क्लिष्टाक्लिष्टाः ॥५॥
vṛttayaḥ pañcatayyaḥ kliṣṭākliṣṭāḥ ||5||
There are five types of misconceptions (vrittis), some of which are more agreeable than others: ||5|| 

 प्रमाण विपर्यय विकल्प निद्रा स्मृतयः ॥६॥
pramāṇa viparyaya vikalpa nidrā smṛtayaḥ ||6||
insight, error, imaginings, deep sleep, and recollections. 

Most of it is good. When you come to this line and word. Correct it in our own reading.
प्रमाण
pramāṇa 
insight,
It's a certain type of insight.

Sanskrit प्रमाण here is is actually measurement (not just mathematical measurement but the more broad concept of measurement, you can say perception, a measurement-taking perception)
Related word - प्रमाणू is the smallest unit of measurement/perception, ie atom
Gurmukhi - ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣ, ਪਰਮਾਣੋ

Five types of misconceptions are -
1. Measurement/perception
2. Errors (in measurement/perception)
3. Imagination/Mind-made forms
4. Sleep
5. Memory.

The purpose of yog=simran is to go beyond these misconceptions.

So read the yog sutra, shouldn't take very long and then tell me if there is any doubt left that yog=simran.


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 19, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> while i don;t do any type of yoga exercises...or made any effort to learn them... I can conclude that kundalini energy rising...is true....100%...it is something that will occur in all of us that so wishes to walk on this path to experiencing the truth...
> 
> in my humble opinion...all the yoga exercises, all the breathing techniques...or my very simple waheguru simram...help to achieve single mindedness...a focussed mind...and it is through this focused mind that things start to happen and the energy within starts to move freely and through all the channels of the body...
> 
> in my humble opinion it is this single pointed thought...single mindedness that is the step up the spiritual ladder so to speak...the mind needs to be able to look within without the bombardment of thoughts and enticement of creation


Chaz Jee

Permit me to write that Yoga is good to maintain the body but it does not remove the pollution of mind which is the core issue. Gurbani very strongly says, 'ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਜੀਵਤ ਕੋ ਬਿਵਹਾਰ ॥ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਭਾਈ ਸੁਤ ਬੰਧਪ ਅਰੁ ਫੁਨਿ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਕੀ ਨਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ every smooth functioning of our body is linked with laws of nature depending upon our godly conduct and subsequent reaction, a complete depature from the earlier notion of maintaining bliss or stablizing or purifying the mind through ritual or body building.SGGS. 536.11. As after finishing the body building course, 'ਜਬ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਵੈ ਤਬ ਗਰਬੁ ਕਰਤੁ ਹੈ ॥ ਮਾਇਆ ਗਈ ਤਬ ਰੋਵਨੁ ਲਗਤੁ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ SGGS 487.6, thus manh remains polluted and manh maila sabh kitch maila.  Pollution of mind only goes by, ' ਸਤ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਕਾ ਧਰਹੁ ਧਿਆਨ ॥ ਕਥਨੀ ਕਥੀਐ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨ ॥੧੫॥ by following and living with the truth and contentment. Thus yoga and simran are not a mean to stablize the mind.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 19, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> Pose Exercises=Asan
> Breathing Exercises=Pranayam
> 
> Yog=Simran. They are almost interchangeable.
> ...



well Bhagatsinghji, I read yours, now you read mine, and then tell me if there is any doubt that it isn't

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/simran-and-sikhi-karminder-singh-dhillon.41762/


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 19, 2015)

You didn't have to read my link but thanks for reading and thanks for sharing.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 20, 2015)

can we have subtitles for the meditation lobby? Just so that we can get a better of idea of what they are actually saying beyond what meditation makes them say at the time? 

God bless! and thanks for sharing too!


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## Original (Jul 20, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> Pose Exercises=Asan
> Breathing Exercises=Pranayam
> 
> Yog=Simran. They are almost interchangeable.
> ...



Bhagat Singh Ji - Good morning [06:40 UK]

Following your text above, Yoga [union with God] and Simran [remembrance of God], both in themselves are ends to fruitful means.

Gur Ghar makes use of the word "yogi" [173 SGGSJ] in places to reflect the oneness of the practitioner and the object of practice. The objective of the practice is to connect. That is to say, the dance [verb] and the dancer [noun] are the one and the same, hence, yogi.

Literal interpretation of Simran is to remember, to practice as nam simran [remembering God], various techniques are observable, notably, the contemplative. Mind you, few hurdles before you become contemplative ?Contemplation in its narrow construction is, *realm of consciousness,* which is not like perception or thought - the operative word in context of Sikh thought is "sehaj", goInge beyond sunn and becoming vibrant, "living" [consciousness surviving death] the God like you, the God you.

Science speaks favourably of "meditation", that is, meditation increases our ability to tap into hidden recesses of our brain, which otherwise are out of reach for the conscious awareness. The brain registers subliminal messages, but is often unable to recall them to the conscious part. One might conclude, that to which the brain pays more attention to [single point mindedness, say, simran] is accessable and consequently surfaces in our awareness as opposed to that which is not at focus of the brain. Meditation may best be seen as a process which expands conscious experience.

An experiment was carried out on meditating monks and the findings were truly remarkable. It was found after an EEG test that the four primary brain waves were almost completely synchronised, which otherwise in the ordinary joe bloggs appear out of synch, but in the case of these monks they aligned almost perfectly. What does that mean ? It meant that these monks were found to be living in a state of constant bliss, of happiness, of empathy for the world around them. They lived in the moment - 

Hope I've been able to corroborate your findings.

Enjoy the day !


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 20, 2015)

Original said:


> What does that mean ? It meant that these monks were found to be living in a state of constant bliss, of happiness, of empathy for the world around them. They lived in the moment -


Good for nothing. Did any monk did any creative job? Any invention or is free from vikars? Instead working so hard on meditating, I buy a bottle of whisky and can live in constant bliss. Why don't we understand, '  ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਗਾਸੁ ॥ ਸੁਣਿਐ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਕਾ ਨਾਸੁ ॥੯॥ in a state of oneness demons thought dare not come near and guru sahib invented this revelation in a state of oneness


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## Ishna (Jul 20, 2015)

Yoga, meditation, fasting, chanting, rhythmic dancing, etc.  They are worth nothing if you can't/don't/won't remember Naam at every moment of the day (and night if you're lucky).  Carrying that constant awareness around with you at all times is essential, recognising the oneness of everything with every interaction you have with other people, and in everything you do.  In my understanding, this is the 'simran' mentioned in Gurbani.

In this way, if yoga, meditation, fasting, chanting or rhythmic dancing etc. foster that constant Simran, then more power to you.  If they become the end, rather than the means, it might be time to reassess.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 20, 2015)

harry haller said:


> can we have subtitles for the meditation lobby? Just so that we can get a better of idea of what they are actually saying beyond what meditation makes them say at the time?
> 
> God bless! and thanks for sharing too!


It's like when you are watching a basketball game.... if you are new to basketball, you wonder what are they doing? what's going on? But by listening to the announcer, you can get some idea of the game (ie shoot the ball in the hoop). And as you get more and more involved with basket ball, you will start understand the ins and outs, the terminology, the rules, what it takes to play sports at a high level. Then you don't need the subtitles, then you get it.

But if you don't do that. If you don't listen to the announcer and don't learn about the game. Then you think it's just shooting a ball in a hoop and somehow it's just like taking drugs. There's no point of going into it and telling players that what they are doing is like taking drugs.



Original said:


> An experiment was carried out on meditating monks and the findings were truly remarkable. It was found after an EEG test that the four primary brain waves were almost completely synchronised, which otherwise in the ordinary joe bloggs appear out of synch, but in the case of these monks they aligned almost perfectly. What does that mean ? It meant that these monks were found to be living in a state of constant bliss, of happiness, of empathy for the world around them. They lived in the moment -


Good morning. I always enjoy your posts. They are puratan in an original wrapper.

I saw this video a while back. Not sure how it stands to today's technology but it's quite interesting to watch.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 20, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> It's like when you are watching a basketball game.... if you are new to basketball, you wonder what are they doing? what's going on? But by listening to the announcer, you can get some idea of the game (ie shoot the ball in the hoop). And as you get more and more involved with basket ball, you will start understand the ins and outs, the terminology, the rules, what it takes to play sports at a high level. Then you don't need the subtitles, then you get it.



No, I think the subtitles are a good idea because after some interaction with meditation people, I am happy to confirm one thing, just like drugs, the meditation only works at the time of meditation, this explains why those that meditate are not the sublime happy peaceful people they would like to project themselves as. Education and learning, on the other hand, seep into your every life, not just the moment you are studying. It seems to me that meditation is only of any use to calm people of a certain persuasion down, so that they can be polite and friendly, through gritted teeth. I also sense a lack of moral code, because as long as that connection is there during the meditative period, you will kid yourself that you are receiving special messages from God, kid yourself that you are special, a minority, one of the chosen few, well good luck with that one, you could be connecting with any side of yourself, maybe even a thief in sheep's clothing!



BhagatSingh said:


> But if you don't do that. If you don't listen to the announcer and don't learn about the game. Then you think it's just shooting a ball in a hoop and somehow it's just like taking drugs. There's no point of going into it and telling players that what they are doing is like taking drugs.



I will post a new thread, why meditation is like taking drugs, see you there!


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 20, 2015)

harry haller said:


> I am happy to confirm one thing, just like drugs, the meditation only works at the time of meditation


Hang on. Where did you pull that from? That's blatantly false. Not arguably... factually false.

Don't bother making a new thread if this is your basis for it. Instead read up on scientific studies done on meditation and it's long-term effects on the brain. That would be better use of your time in my view.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 20, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> Hang on. Where did you pull that from? That's blatantly false. Not arguably... factually false.
> 
> Don't bother making a new thread if this is your basis for it. Instead read up on scientific studies done on meditation and it's long-term effects on the brain. That would be better use of your time in my view.



I am starting to see a common facet in you meditation folk, you like telling people what to do! Is this a side effect of the mumbling? Of course you know what is the best use of my time! 

Well I am not much of a scientist, I am not a great lover of reading scientific studies, but what I have noticed is the sheer arrogance of the meditation community, I do not meditate, yet I am capable of writing posts, using my own account, and in my own name, without throwing my toys out of the pram, without threatening to leave, without getting angry, without getting stressed, I do believe its called Chardi Kala, and I am pretty sure I do not need to keep topping it up with early morning mumbling.

May I make a suggestion, although as I am not a meditation expert, I probably lack the arrogance and bullying nature, why not try not meditating and just live a little, I know its quite boring, and there is not carrot afterwards, you may not get to see your 13th {censored}, but that would be a better use of your time in my view


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## Original (Jul 20, 2015)

Bhagat Singh

Sikhism is a science, ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ [translation: first life is water in which other life forms develop p472 SGGSJ] consistent with the theory of evolution [Darwinian]. Albert Einstein summed it up as *E* = mc 2, that is, energy and matter are the one and the same albeit in different forms.

Reality as we perceive it is, matter n energy of which the human body is made. Humans have a physical dimension [body], but they also have, mental, emotional and *spiritual* dimensions. In order to realise what they are and to experience their full potential these dimensions need to be fully developed. The secret to a meaningful and harmonious life is to develop this spiritual dimension [kirit kar, vand shuk n *nam jap, *not necessarily utterance but reflection]. To do this, one need to reorientate themselves, new orientation towards spirituality will open a new window, new perspective, the spiritual perspective, _thal vich tin vastu_.....*veechar* [meditate, not necessarily with eyes close but open, aesthetic thinking, in your case painting passionately, p1429 SGGSJ]. It will affect the way the individual respond to the world, help redefine the way daily life is approached, redefine values and priorities. Moreover, it will provide the individual with a true picture of who and what we as humans are and what are roles and responsibilities are. With a spiritual worldview, the individual will better understand her/his nature and the potential [chardi kala] to do well in life.

More another time


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 20, 2015)

harry haller said:


>


And with that smiley face your passive aggressive attacks and derogatory remarks begin.



harry haller said:


> I am starting to see a common facet in you meditation folk, you like telling people what to do! Is this a side effect of the mumbling?


For someone who accuses "meditation folk" of things, you are acting like quite a cartoon.
Maybe it's not them but your own behaviour that warrants those responses. Have you thought about that?

Imagine -
Jane doesn't know the abc of basketball but goes into basketball courts to tell the players how what they are doing is wrong and it like doing drugs.
What would the players' response be? Either they would say "Get out!" if they don't want to bother with Jane.
If they are Jane's friends/If they want to be polite they would recommend that Jane try basketball for herself and learn about it before passing judgements on it.



> Well I am not much of a scientist,


That's not a surprise. A true scientist at heart wants to learn things. He is curious and he is open to new things. You however dismiss things after having done nothing to understand them.
And when I tell you what you could do, to understand it, you start bitching about it. You yourself asked me for subtitles. As a good friend I gave you the subtitles. If someone else had said that I would have ignored them.

It's like if Jane's friends told her, she needs to play basketball and understand the game before ranting, and instead of taking their advice, she starts bitching at them. What are they supposed to do in that case? Should they abandon Jane altogether? or should they try to get her to see it?



> Of course you know what is the best use of my time!


Of course I do. It's simple. If you are going to make a factual claim that "meditation does not have long-term effects", all the while, ignoring studies which show that it does have long-term effects, ie they prove you wrong, then in order to advance the discussion, you are going to have to read those and correct yourself.

You should know that's pretty much what I do, is correct people! 

Anyways, so you either read those articles yourself, or you take my word for it. If you do neither of those, then there cannot be a discussion on that topic. This is a discussion forum after all, so you are expected to do one of those things to advance the discussion. You can't skip that part and then throw a tantrum when people tell you that you can't skip it.



> I am not a great lover of reading scientific studies, but what I have noticed is the sheer arrogance of the meditation community, I do not meditate, yet I am capable of writing posts, using my own account, and in my own name, without throwing my toys out of the pram, without threatening to leave, without getting angry, without getting stressed, I do believe its called Chardi Kala, and I am pretty sure I do not need to keep topping it up with early morning mumbling.


And this is the tantrum. Meditation people are all arrogant and bullies and you are the victim of their arrogance and bullying. You poor little thing.
" wa wa wa I don't know anything about meditation but I'll throw a tantrum whenever i get corrected on topics I don't know about wa wa wa". 

Like I said, it's your behaviour that causes others to respond to you in a way they do. They get fed up with you pestering them without you making any effort to learn.



> May I make a suggestion, although as I am not a meditation expert, I probably lack the arrogance and bullying nature, why not try not meditating and just live a little, I know its quite boring, and there is not carrot afterwards, you may not get to see your 13th {censored}, but that would be a better use of your time in my view


You mad bro? you mad? 



> you may not get to see your 13th {censored}


Oh man you are definitely angry. That's a new insult, haven't heard that from you before. You always get creative when you are angry lol. How long have we known each other now?


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## Admin (Jul 20, 2015)

Please keep it tight, keep it cool, or the thread closes...


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 20, 2015)

Original said:


> Bhagat Singh
> 
> Sikhism is a science, ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ [translation: first life is water in which other life forms develop p472 SGGSJ] consistent with the theory of evolution [Darwinian]. Albert Einstein summed it up as *E* = mc 2, that is, energy and matter are the one and the same albeit in different forms.
> 
> ...


Yea I completely agree with your post. 

Well aside from this- 
This is mistranslation of the tuk. It doesn't say "life is water" or "life forms develop in water" in the gurmukhi. This is not talking about Darwin's or Einstein's theory.

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ
(ਪਹਿਲਾ ) First (ਪਾਣੀ) water (ਹੈ) is (ਜੀਉ) alive,  (ਜਿਤੁ) which then makes (ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ) everything else (ਹਰਿਆ) come to life!
First water is alive, it then makes everything alive.

This is significant. Guru Sahib says water is alive. It carries consciousness and is an energetic living system.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 20, 2015)

Admin Singh said:


> Please keep it tight, keep it cool, or the thread closes...


Sure thing. Btw I replied to your email. Do check!


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## Harry Haller (Jul 20, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> And with that smiley face your passive aggressive attacks and derogatory remarks begin.



sorry that's too complicated for me, its just a smiley face.



BhagatSingh said:


> or someone who accuses "meditation folk" of things, you are acting like quite a cartoon.



yes, I like to think this way of acting suits me, you should see what I look like in real life


BhagatSingh said:


> Maybe it's not them but your own behaviour that warrants those responses. Have you thought about that?


If my behaviour is warranting such responses, maybe the key is more meditation to counter it?



BhagatSingh said:


> Imagine -
> Jane doesn't know the abc of basketball but goes into basketball courts to tell the players how what they are doing is wrong and it like doing drugs.
> What would the players' response be? Either they would say "Get out!" if they don't want to bother with Jane.
> If they are Jane's friends/If they want to be polite they would recommend that Jane try basketball for herself and learn about it before passing judgements on it.



this is not an accurate scenario, allow me to give you the accurate scenario

Jane does not know the abc of basketball, but is quite happy playing chess. The trouble is the basketball players keep disturbing Jane's chess game, and in the end she states that basketball is not chess.

If they were polite they would just play basketball and not go around invading peoples quiet chess games.



BhagatSingh said:


> That's not a surprise. A true scientist at heart wants to learn things. He is curious and he is open to new things. You however dismiss things after having done nothing to understand them.
> And when I tell you what you could do, to understand it, you start bitching about it. You yourself asked me for subtitles. As a good friend I gave you the subtitles. If someone else had said that I would have ignored them.



I don't want to learn 'things', I want to learn the truth, I have never shown any interest in meditation, I thought I made that quite clear, so what do you insist on 'telling me what to do'? Can't you take a hint? are you on a percentage for each conversion?



BhagatSingh said:


> It's like if Jane's friends told her, she needs to play basketball and understand the game before ranting, and instead of taking their advice, she starts bitching at them. What are they supposed to do in that case? Should they abandon Jane altogether? or should they try to get her to see it?



I have no friends, which is probably why I am getting confused here, because to me, true friendship is to be truly  accepting of people, maybe she bitches at them because she finds their attitude that they know everything, arrogant and patronising?



BhagatSingh said:


> Of course I do. It's simple. If you are going to make a factual claim that "meditation does not have long-term effects", all the while, ignoring studies which show that it does have long-term effects, ie they prove you wrong, then in order to advance the discussion, you are going to have to read those and correct yourself.



Meditation may well have long term effects, I don't know, or care for that matter, the point I was actually making was that for all the meditation that you may do at 4am, judging from recent posts, it does not seem to translate into calmness, peace and love for all when not meditating. I find you all quite precious actually


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## Harry Haller (Jul 20, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> You should know that's pretty much what I do, is correct people!



I will let you know when you have achieved that with me



BhagatSingh said:


> Anyways, so you either read those articles yourself, or you take my word for it. If you do neither of those, then there cannot be a discussion on that topic. This is a discussion forum after all, so you are expected to do one of those things to advance the discussion. You can't skip that part and then throw a tantrum when people tell you that you can't skip it.


I did read it, and the tantrum appears to be yours not mine


BhagatSingh said:


> And this is the tantrum. Meditation people are all arrogant and bullies and you are the victim of their arrogance and bullying. You poor little thing.
> " wa wa wa I don't know anything about meditation but I'll throw a tantrum whenever i get corrected on topics I don't know about wa wa wa".



I do not recall saying I was a victim, I quite enjoy these discussions, to date, I do not believe I have ever turned tail and run away, although that does seem a common tactic for the meditation lobby, I guess your running away to meditate or something



BhagatSingh said:


> Like I said, it's your behaviour that causes others to respond to you in a way they do. They get fed up with you pestering them without you making any effort to learn.



I see, its all my fault? 


BhagatSingh said:


> You mad bro? you mad?


yes....



BhagatSingh said:


> Oh man you are definitely angry. That's a new insult, haven't heard that from you before. You always get creative when you are angry lol. How long have we known each other now?



a while, and I did not write this angry, actually I was giggling, I thought it was quite funny, I find it quite hard to get angry, its a failing in me

to wit

Yoga is nothing like Simran
(see what I did there, I kept it on topic!)


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## Original (Jul 20, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> Yea I completely agree with your post.
> 
> Well aside from this-
> This is mistranslation of the tuk. It doesn't say "life is water" or "life forms develop in water" in the gurmukhi. This is not talking about Darwin's or Einstein's theory.
> ...



Bhagat Singh

Your interpretation is correct. The point I was trying to advance was that Sikhi and Darwinian theory of evolution both point to *"life"* [noun] having started in water. Yes, gur ghar use *"alive"* [adjective] and I used a noun, simply to borne out the similarity between the two. Its like saying on the one hand,* green *apple and on the other, apple is *green*, the objective here is colour green. Similarly, the point I was advancing was life started in water.

Goodnight


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 20, 2015)

Original ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> Sikhism is a science, ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ [translation: first life is water in which other life forms develop p472 SGGSJ] consistent with the theory of evolution [Darwinian]. Albert Einstein summed it up as *E* = mc 2, that is, energy and matter are the one and the same albeit in different forms.



But in your past  threads you  claimed Sikhi is based on faith and belief not on science- reasoning, thought process etc. etc. This is just one example that you  addressed to me here: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/faith-and-sikhism.44912/page-2#post-202010, you say:



> If you read all my posts from the day I subscribed, I always maintained that *"faith-belief" *cannot be entertained within the jurisdictions of *"rationality" and "empirical observation" *because their subject-matter *[God]* *does not fall under "knowledge" but under "belief" which has only "subjectivity" testing.*



Have you changed your mind regarding your earlier *"belief"*? It seems you do not  have *"faith"* in your earlier assertions any more.

Can you please explain this change?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: Then we can discuss about *vichaar- contemplation on knowledge-*  in your post and your  meaning of meditation as you explained in your posts earlier, later.


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## Ishna (Jul 20, 2015)

Some fascinating discussion occurring here today, but I implore *all* members to please leave the meditation argument alone for a while.

Original Ji, 

I personally try not to make too many connections between science and Gurbani.  This is my personal view.  When I say 'science' I mean the study of the material world.  To me, Gurbani's focus is on the inner human experience.  Many a belief system has been undermined by having it's apparent scientific claims disproven.



			
				Original Ji said:
			
		

> The secret to a meaningful and harmonious life is to develop this spiritual dimension [kirit kar, vand shuk n *nam jap, *not necessarily utterance but reflection]. To do this, one need to reorientate themselves, new orientation towards spirituality will open a new window, new perspective, the spiritual perspective, _thal vich tin vastu_.....*veechar* [meditate, not necessarily with eyes close but open, aesthetic thinking, in your case painting passionately, p1429 SGGSJ]. It will affect the way the individual respond to the world, help redefine the way daily life is approached, redefine values and priorities.



I totally agree with your statement here.  How do you translate *veechar* as 'meditate'?  I always understood this term as contemplation and deep thinking.  I see how this could overlap with meditation as a focused state of mind, but meditation is usually characterised as an activity in controlling the mind and relaxing the body.  If meditation is a 'passive' exercise of the mind, veechar would be an 'active' exercise.  In fact, Dr. Surinder Singh Kohli does translate *veechar* is 'thought, consideration, reflection', not meditation.

Please forgive me if I am splitting hairs.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

harry haller said:


> a while, and I did not write this angry, actually I was giggling, I thought it was quite funny, I find it quite hard to get angry, its a failing in me


That's the spirit.

But you didn't address my point that in order to know about Basketkball, you'd have to play and know the ins and outs of basketball, the rules, the terminology. Similarly, if you wanted to know about Meditation, you'd have to do it and know the ins and outs of meditation, the rules, the terminology. 

Another point you didn't address is...


> , just like drugs, the meditation only works at the time of meditation,


If you are going to make the claim that meditation is like taking drugs. You better be able to back it up, which you did but it turns out you are wrong.
Meditation does have healthy long-term effects regardless of what your personal interactions are like. So that puts a serious dent in your "meditation is like drugs" theory.

You haven't addressed that.




Original said:


> Bhagat Singh
> 
> Your interpretation is correct. The point I was trying to advance was that Sikhi and Darwinian theory of evolution both point to *"life"* [noun] having started in water. Yes, gur ghar use *"alive"* [adjective] and I used a noun, simply to borne out the similarity between the two. Its like saying on the one hand,* green *apple and on the other, apple is *green*, the objective here is colour green. Similarly, the point I was advancing was life started in water.
> 
> Goodnight


I don't see why that would matter. Even if Sikhism disagreed with Darwin or Einstein, it could still be a science. 



Ishna said:


> Original Ji,
> 
> I personally try not to make too many connections between science and Gurbani.  This is my personal view.  When I say 'science' I mean the study of the material world.  To me, Gurbani's focus is on the inner human experience.  Many a belief system has been undermined by having it's apparent scientific claims disproven.


"Study of the material world" is quite a limited definition Ishna. Science doesn't have to be materialistic. This definition of science excludes spiritual sciences like yog vidya. It also excludes fields in psychology, which also deal with subjective things.

Science has to be do with repetition. If an experiment works when repeated, if it gives similar results over many studies then that feeds into a theory, which then leads to more experiments. Experiments -> Results -> Theory -> Experiments -> Results -> Theory, you get this loop. And as long as the results are there, the theory is valid. If you repeat the experiment and you find that you are no longer getting the results, you have to abandon that theory.

If you read Yog Sutra of Patanjali, he is actually describing an experiment. He puts forward a theory -> then experiment -> then results. This experiment is older than 2000 years. It's been done time and time again over eons and the results have been replicated. If you wanted to test his theory yourself, all you would have to do is repeat the experiment yourself.

Yog vidya is a science. It's not quantitative science, you cannot measure and put numbers on things. It's rather a qualitative science because yog has to do with inner subjectivity. Where things can only be described. There are also endeavours to study the spiritual world via Out of Body Experiences. Such experiments would have to be entirely descriptive, since OBEs are subjective experience.

So there can be a spiritual science. It would have to be descriptive, it would have to be qualitative. It's still a science because you can definitely repeat the experiment and test the results and theory in question.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 21, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> But you didn't address my point that in order to know about Basketkball, you'd have to play and know the ins and outs of basketball, the rules, the terminology. Similarly, if you wanted to know about Meditation, you'd have to do it and know the ins and outs of meditation, the rules, the terminology.



look pal, I am just trying to play chess here , and its a really good game, I like it, a lot better than basketball, but your telling me I cannot dislike basketball until I know about it, even though what I have seen so far repels me. That's no big deal, what I resent is people telling me that basketball is much better than chess, and I should try it, well, upto about 5 seconds ago, I do believe I was still capable of making my own mind up. No, what really gets my goat is you guys storming my chess room every five minutes telling me how great it is, well good for you, why not just try keeping it to yourself?


BhagatSingh said:


> If you are going to make the claim that meditation is like taking drugs. You better be able to back it up, which you did but it turns out you are wrong.


If you have never taken drugs you are not qualified to make that statement, I prefer first hand experience rather than someone else scientific study, I can read about how it feels to be bitten by an alligator all day, the scientific study, the biology, the what happens after, etc etc, but to be honest, nothing beats being bitten by an alligator first hand!



BhagatSingh said:


> Meditation does have healthy long-term effects regardless of what your personal interactions are like. So that puts a serious dent in your "meditation is like drugs" theory.


whats the point?

I mean what's the point of meditation having healthy long term effects if your personal interactions are still poor? Given that , in my view, Creator is in everything, then personal interaction is how we communicate with each other and thus with Creator. I guess if your only interest is personal interaction with what you feel is Creator and that other interactions are not important, then it works for you. 

If meditating all night does not help you interact with people, if it does not centre you, if you still scream and shout and throw your toys out of your pram, what's the point?

sure you don't want to start another thread? I will pass if it stresses you out


----------



## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

harry haller said:


> you guys storming my chess room every five minutes telling me how great it is, well good for you, why not just try keeping it to yourself?



Excuse me? I believe you are in the basketball court right now, telling people how basketball is wrong.

*Yoga v/s Simran ?*

(that's the basketball court)




> nothing beats being bitten by an alligator first hand!



Indeed! I am glad we agree on something.




> I mean what's the point of meditation having healthy long term effects if your personal interactions are still poor?



That's like asking "what's the point in playing basketball if you still suck at soccer?"

So you are judging basketball players on their lack of soccer skills... then you wonder why those basketball players are mad at you. Hahaha


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## Ishna (Jul 21, 2015)

Since the thread is Yoga vs Simran, it's actually not about meditation per se.  Any similar argument would be whether simran is meditation or not, and not the value (or not) of meditation itself.

I think you two can take your debate to PMs or a new thread, don't you?


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## Harry Haller (Jul 21, 2015)

will do sis,


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 21, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> Yog vidya is a science. It's not quantitative science, you cannot measure and put numbers on things. It's rather a qualitative science because yog has to do with inner subjectivity


 Who could be more knowledgeable in Yog vidhya then Swami Ramdev. I have personally met him and have seen several session of his on TV. Despite his achievements, he is most controversial, corrupt, ran away from pandal in ladies outfit. You just pamper him and observe his body language. Thus if manh maila sabh kitch maila. lokan raam khilona jaana. If it would have been that easy to achieve creative bliss to be able to cultivate meaningful life, (yes dumb bliss can be achieved)  market would have been flooded with Apps on meditation, repetition. 

Gurbani also says, ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਪਟੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ By Meditating on har har, deception remains  

ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੇ ਸੁਪਨੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ 
  He may perform all sorts of rituals, night and day, but he shall not find peace, even in dreams. ||1|| 
ਗਿਆਨੀ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
O so called wise ones, without the Guru, there is no devotional worship.
ਕੋਰੈ ਰੰਗੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਚੜੈ ਜੇ ਲੋਚੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
 no matter how much everyone may practice, it is like . ||1||Pause||
ਜਪੁ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਵਰਤ ਕਰੇ ਪੂਜਾ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਰੋਗੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
The self-willed manmukh may perform *chants, meditations*, austere self-discipline, fasts and devotional worship, *but his sickness does not go away.*
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਰੋਗੁ ਮਹਾ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਖੁਆਈ ॥੨॥
Deep within him is the sickness of excessive egotism; in the love of duality he is ruined. ||2||


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

Ishna said:


> Since the thread is Yoga vs Simran, it's actually not about meditation per se.


Not true.
You cannot discuss yog and simran without using the word meditation. By meditation I mean Dhyan. Meditation/Dhyan is a state of being that is focused single pointedly on something. Meditation is a fundamental part of Yog and Simran. 

If you take meditation out, you have nothing left.



Ishna said:


> I think you two can take your debate to PMs or a new thread, don't you?


That said we can always take our chessboards and basketballs to a PM.


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## Original (Jul 21, 2015)

Good morning everyone !

First n foremost, the discussion with Bhagat Singh was with a view to share, who like myself is that way inclined re "nam jap". Nam jap or nam simran in its wider meaning can mean lot of things and I think from a personal perspective it really is down to the individual what method is used, how it is recited, practiced, whether it'd be contemplated, meditated, etc. and to what end. For example, I now sit and meditate on the holy name [waheguru] the way it has been passed on to me as a "science" [subjective] - I *believe* in it therefore I do it. By science, I mean, try it and realise because it is "alive" - of course, this statement holds true for the practitioner and not for the sceptical. And, when taken to account for its "objectivity" testing it is reduced or categorised if you like [academically] to one's system of "belief". That is to say, it is not classed as knowledge [cannot be tested objectively] but belief. Belief is made by one's faith. In its wider sense, Sikhi doctrinal n emotional is a matter of belief down to the disposition of the individual.

The nam simran is very personal and I strongly ascribe to the view that it should perhaps, late rather than early in life be practiced and that too for the right reasons. I subscribe to the view that life should first n foremost be enjoyed, ego fully burnt out and then both meaning n purpose will emerge as a consequence. From the practical [science] to the contemplative [art], slowly but surely is what Sikhi is all about.

Ishna Ji, the science of concentration, meditation and contemplation is intrinsic to human nature, result of which is civilisation. The beautiful mind of the human "invested" for the progress of our species is evident in our everyday life. We swim like the fish in water, fly like the bird in the air, science n technology is the result of the investment of our "mind". The mind is so beautiful when put to good use via *concentration*, *meditation* and *contemplation. *When made to focus on its altusitc trait results are wonderful, but when focused on selfish traits [Hitler], it's horrible.

We in our everyday life meditate, reading, writing, drawing, planning or just deep thinking is meditation. Contemplation is different, for example, body is present but mind has taken to wings. I at times find that happening with me when in a meetings and the subject matter is so boring that my body is in the meeting and I'm miles away. Contemplation in its specific sense is a state realised by the practitioner within spiritual heights. So I suppose *Japjisahib* Ji was right when he commented [above] about the laziness of the monks, and yes, it is a state of total n complete idleness. But from a spiritual perspective, it's state of "being". And what that being is, is subjective, only the practitioner experiences.

Nam simran is something that is born, something which evolves from within, it cannot be extracted from external sources nor can it be purchased from retail. Akal Purakh creates for the individual a way to get to that stage where one can sit and "thank God" [nam sinran]. Sikhi, very beautifully allows us to do that. Nam simran, any time of the day is a way of thanking the almighty, but as practice becomes perfect a yearning and stirring within our heart begins to take shape. And, it is that yearning n stirring which different practitioners describe in different ways.

I'm sorry I have to rush for my morning training. Special apologies to Phaji *Tejwant* Singh for not fully elaborating on the subject matter, but suffice to say, yes I see Sikhi as a science, the way, but not everyone else does. Academically speaking, Nanak's Nirankar cannot be brought to the science lab because it is beyond time n space.

More another time, apologies for errors, omissions, unnecessary bias or prejudices.

Love you all !

Good day !


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## Harry Haller (Jul 21, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> That said we can always take our chessboards and basketballs to a PM.



I will start a new post in a while, I am just finishing off my next Hitler video


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> Who could be more knowledgeable in Yog vidhya then [so and so]
> 
> [so and so is ] controversial, corrupt,....


1. Anyone could be a master in yog vidya, even a julaha, cloth-spinner 

2. No one is perfect. Especially in high stress situations, when there is a spot light on you, shining bright on every single detail. Many flaws are bound to emerge.

3. And no one is without haters. There were plenty of people who thought that Gurus were corrupt. They hated the Gurus.

4. Without a hole (flaws), where cannot be whole. Our flaws make us human.

5. Meditation is not about getting rid of your flaws in the way you might think. More on this later.




> If it would have been that easy to achieve creative bliss to be able to cultivate meaningful life, (yes dumb bliss can be achieved)  market would have been flooded with Apps on meditation, repetition.


I agree it would be. But it's not. When you talk with people, you will soon realize that very few people are actually into meditation.



> Gurbani also says, ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਪਟੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ By Meditating on har har, deception remains


That's a mistranslation. In that shabad guru sahibs are explaining how meditation is actually done, and they stress the importance of finding a teacher.



BhagatSingh said:


> By meditation I mean Dhyan. Meditation/Dhyan is a state of being that is focused single pointedly on something. Meditation is a fundamental part of Yog and Simran.


This is how meditation is defined in Guru Granth Sahib.

Let's read the whole shabad.

*ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥*
Raag Soohi, By Guru Ram Das ji

*ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਪਟੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥*
His says "Hari Hari" but engages in (ਕਪਟੁ) Untruth so his heart does not become pure.

Hari is the Truth so if you engage in actions that are Untruthful in nature, that lead away from Him, clearly you aren't going to obtain Him.

*ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੇ ਸੁਪਨੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ *
They pretend to do all kinds of truthful actions but even in their dreams, they do not find peace.

So they are pretending. In reality they did not find that focused single-pointed state of being. They are only showing outwardly, without actually meditating.

*ਗਿਆਨੀ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਕੋਰੈ ਰੰਗੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਚੜੈ ਜੇ ਲੋਚੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥*
Without a coach, who can guide you, you cannot do meditation. Without that, the colour cannot be retained on the cloth.

So now we know Guru Sahib is saying that this person , who engages in falsehood, cannot do meditation. That a teacher is required, who can teach you the correct methods. A cloth that hasn't been treated deeply by a professional dyer cannot retain colour not matter how hard it tries. The dyer knows how to dye correctly, so consult him when you want your clothes dyed correctly.

Here's the basketball analogy again -
1. You need a coach to truly excel at basketball at a high level.
2. Just shooting paper balls in garbage bins, is not basketball.


*ਜਪੁ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਵਰਤ ਕਰੇ ਪੂਜਾ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਰੋਗੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਰੋਗੁ ਮਹਾ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਖੁਆਈ ॥੨॥*
You may pretend to do (ਜਪੁ) chants, (ਤਪ) disciplines, and (ਸੰਜਮ) you pretend to control your five-senses and you may pretend to do (ਪੂਜਾ) worship, however if you pretend, your self-absorption will not go. The disease of ego and the attachment to the idea, that (ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ) you are are separate from everything else, will not go.

You are not meditating by pretending to meditate.
We know Guru Sahib constantly advocates and urges people to do  ਜਪੁ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਪੂਜਾ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਭਜਨ ਧਿਆਨ etc.
He says ਰਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਸਖੀ ਸਖੈਨੀ ॥  My sister meditate on "Ram".
He says ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਬੋਲਤ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਾ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਤੋਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ The followers of Hari chant "Shri Ram" and in the company of advanced practitioners, they move towards hari.

So Guru Sahib is telling us to meditate but Guru sahib also wants to teach meditation correctly, so that you actually get the desired results - so you actually move closer to Hari.  So Guru sahib wants to make sure  you are doing it correctly.

*ਬਾਹਰਿ ਭੇਖ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਮਨੂਆ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਬਿਆਪਿਆ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਵੈ ॥੩॥*
(ਬਾਹਰਿ) Outwardly you may put on religious robes (bana, kirpan, tuban, kesh, mala) and this would make you appear quite the meditator. However if your mind is (ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਧਾਵੈ) wandering in ten different directions, ie it's distracted (by thoughts, worries, and untruth), then you are not meditating. And if you are not meditating, then Haumai, your inner ego will remain, you will not understand my (1st person, guru's) instructions and you will come and go in reincarnation.

Meditation is single-pointed concentration. Guru Sahib says, if your mind is wandering, if it is distracted, if you haven't centered it on a single point. Then you are not meditating, then you are simply pretending.  ਸਿਲ ਪੂਜਸਿ ਬਗੁਲ ਸਮਾਧੰ ॥ This is not meditation he says. It's like a bagul. A bagul is a bird that simply closes its eyes and sits in the water. It's not really meditating. Why? Because the bagul is thinking about it's prey (fish), it closes its eyes so that it can pretend to be asleep and catch its unwary prey.

Even though bagul bird's eyes are closed, in reality , it is distracted. It is not focusing on something single-pointedly, and (ਪਾਂਚਉ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਗ੍ਰਹ ਕਰਈ ॥) withdrawing the five senses to (ਪਰਮ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਪਰਚਉ ਲਾਵਾ ॥) experience the atma.


*ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਸੋ ਬੂਝੈ ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ॥*
Guru Ram Das ji says - Those whom Hari looks kindly on, they understand the secret of how to single-pointedly center the mind, and so they learn to meditate.

*ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਏਕੋ ਬੂਝੈ ਏਕਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਏ ॥੪॥੪॥*
Through the Gurus's teachings, they practice his methods and they recognize the state of one-pointed consciousness and they merge with it.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 21, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> Excuse me? I believe you are in the basketball court right now, telling people how basketball is wrong.



well, we have already been informed by mods that this argument should be taken to another thread. so this is not the basketball court, and , again, it is you telling us all how great it is


BhagatSingh said:


> That's like asking "what's the point in playing basketball if you still suck at soccer?"


not really, that's probably the worst metaphor you could have used, what I would ask why do you play basketball? what is your agenda? 


BhagatSingh said:


> So you are judging basketball players on their lack of soccer skills... then you wonder why those basketball players are mad at you. Hahaha



Well if the goal is not to be good at soccer (wordly interaction), and be good at basketball (self exploration), but I live in the world of soccer, so in my world, it all seems a bit weird to me, I never wonder why people are mad at me, people are always mad at me, maybe its because I just cannot see the Emperor's new clothes? I just see a naked fat man, what do you see?


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

harry haller said:


> be good at basketball (self exploration)


That's right. Yog/Simran is about self-exploration. By "self" I mean atma/spirit, who is Parmatma/God. In order to (ਪਰਮ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਪਰਚਉ ਲਾਵਾ ॥) see the atma or God, (ਪਾਂਚਉ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਗ੍ਰਹ ਕਰਈ ॥) one has to withdraw from the world and five senses.



harry haller said:


> so in my world, it all seems a bit weird to me,


That's fine. You go play soccer. *thumbs up*


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## Ishna (Jul 21, 2015)

Cut it out you two or I bring out the naughty stick.


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## Ishna (Jul 21, 2015)

The definition of science that I provided is limited in that I didn't mention social sciences, but they all apply the scientific method to their research.

Not meaning any disrespect, but I think the term you are looking for is 'pseudoscience'.  Wikipedia says:

"A field, practice, or body of knowledge can reasonably be called pseudoscientific when it is presented as consistent with the norms of scientific research, but it demonstrably fails to meet these norms.[2] Science is also distinguishable from revelation, theology, or spirituality in that it offers insight into the physical world obtained by empirical research and testing.[3] Commonly held beliefs in popular science may not meet the criteria of science.[4]"

_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience_​


			
				BhagatSingh said:
			
		

> You cannot discuss yog and simran without using the word meditation. By meditation I mean Dhyan. Meditation/Dhyan is a state of being that is focused single pointedly on something. Meditation is a fundamental part of Yog and Simran.
> 
> If you take meditation out, you have nothing left.



Simran is constant remembrance.  It is that constant awareness of Oneness that we should carry with us all the time.  The kite we always fly, no matter what we're doing.  Simran is not just an act of meditation, it's a way of being.



			
				Original said:
			
		

> Akal Purakh creates for the individual a way to get to that stage where one can sit and "thank God" [nam sinran]. Sikhi, very beautifully allows us to do that. Nam simran, any time of the day is a way of thanking the almighty, but as practice becomes perfect a yearning and stirring within our heart begins to take shape.



I agree with you up to a point, Ji.  My understanding of Naam simran is a state of being.  Of course there are activities we can do to remind ourselves of the Ik Onkar.  Prayer, meditation, yoga, chanting, etc are all tools we can use to achieve a profound, complete, pervading sense of connection, to eliminate our sense of separation/haumai/"ego".  But the *real objective* is to carry that deep sense of unity everywhere you go, at all times, in good times and bad.



			
				BhagatSingh said:
			
		

> This is how meditation is defined in Guru Granth Sahib.
> 
> Let's read the whole shabad.



Shabad here: http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=732&L=6  From panna 732.

I have a different perspective of this shabad than you do, Bhagat Ji.  Thank you for sharing your understanding.

My take on the shabad is thus:

You can chant as much as you like, do all sorts of rituals, but if it doesn't get to your mind and change the way you act, it's useless.  The Guru (Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Life itself) can teach us how to think and act properly.  Without learning from the Guru (treating the cloth) you can't think and act properly (and take on the dye of Love and Naam).  Without the Guru, you can chant, worship, fast, look like a perfect white Brahm Giani or the Pope, but you need to recognise Naam to be absorbed (achieve that Oneness).

My understanding is very simple.

Thanks


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

Ishna said:


> The definition of science that I provided is limited in that I didn't mention social sciences, but they all apply the scientific method to their research.


Not only limited in that in didn't include social sciences but it was also limited because it didn't include psychological and spiritual sciences.

I was trained in the modern scientific method and I understand what makes it useful and I understand its limitations.

Science is simply the study of something. It's doesn't have to be material-only. I am aware this is a broad definition but I don't find a "material-only" science definition all that useful especially in threads about meditation.




Ishna said:


> Not meaning any disrespect, but I think the term you are looking for is 'pseudoscience'.


Oh I know what that term means. I am not talking about that.



Ishna said:


> Simran is constant remembrance. It is that constant awareness of Oneness that we should carry with us all the time.





Ishna said:


> *real objective* is to carry that deep sense of unity everywhere you go, at all times, in good times and bad.


That's the end game. The XYZ of meditation, in which meditation becomes a state of being. Before we get to XYZ thought, we must start from the ABC and work our way up the ladder.




Ishna said:


> My take on the shabad is thus:


What does it mean to achieve oneness? (Hint - This is again the XYZ, the end-game)

Guru Sahib answers - 
ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਏਕੋ ਬੂਝੈ ਏਕਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਏ ॥੪॥੪॥
Through the Gurus's teachings, they practice his methods and they (ਬੂਝੈ) recognize (ਏਕੋ) the state of one-pointed consciousness and they (ਸਮਾਏ) merge with it.


The people that Guru Sahib is talking about in this shabad, are not at the end-game. In fact they haven't even started learning the ABC.

*ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਧਾਵੈ -  *Their mind is distracted, it's wandering in ten different directions. ie they are not meditating.

In other shabads Guru sahib explains the ABC. In this shabad, he explaining to these people that they are not doing the ABC, as they seem to believe they are.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 21, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> That's right. Yog/Simran is about self-exploration. By "self" I mean atma/spirit, who is Parmatma/God. In order to (ਪਰਮ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਪਰਚਉ ਲਾਵਾ ॥) see the atma or God, (ਪਾਂਚਉ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਗ੍ਰਹ ਕਰਈ ॥) one has to withdraw from the world and five senses.
> 
> 
> That's fine. You go play soccer. *thumbs up*



I can't, your playing basketball on my pitch


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

Dude forget the pitch or else Ishna is going to pull out her Baseball bat.


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## Original (Jul 21, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> Dude forget the pitch or else Ishna is going to pull out her Baseball bat.


Ishna

The nuts n bolts of the whole palaver to hand is this; Sikhi speaks of "anhad shabd" [sound, music], it also prescribes a method known as "dhyan" or "samadhi" [meditation], "nam simran" to fine tune and open the inner mechanism to here this "anhad shabd". 

Personally speaking, it is BnE of both Arts n Sicences. Read up on it from Bhagat Kabir's bani p340 SGGSJ.

Good day!


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## Ishna (Jul 21, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> Not only limited in that in didn't include social sciences but it was also limited because it didn't include psychological and spiritual sciences.
> 
> I was trained in the modern scientific method and I understand what makes it useful and I understand its limitations.
> 
> Science is simply the study of something. It's doesn't have to be material-only. I am aware this is a broad definition but I don't find a "material-only" science definition all that useful especially in threads about meditation.



What scientific findings has yoga produced?  What is being tested, and by what method?



> That's the end game. The XYZ of meditation, in which meditation becomes a state of being. Before we get to XYZ thought, we must start from the ABC and work our way up the ladder.
> 
> What does it mean to achieve oneness? (Hint - This is again the XYZ, the end-game)
> 
> ...



I agree with this in spirit.  Particularly that the end-game is not physical death, as is the end-game for so many other religions.  The end-game is a state of being which we then carry with us in our day-to-day.

Question:  If yoga, meditation and chanting can all be used as tools to achieve this end-game, can fasting be used, too?

Thanks


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

Ishna can you read gurmukhi? If you can, I would suggest you try to abandom the english translations and start working from raw Gurmukhi. There's a dictionary on Srigranth.org that connects to Mahan Kosh (the great dictionary) and it's wicked.



Ishna said:


> What scientific findings has yoga produced?  What is being tested, and by what method?


In a nutshell -
The finding is 'oneness'. Oneness is what we are testing, to see if it exists.
The method is 'meditation'.

You can check out the Yog Sutra of Patanjali, that I linked earlier, for more on that.



> Question:  If yoga, meditation and chanting can all be used as tools to achieve this end-game, can fasting be used, too?


Tool - that word is key. Because tool means that it gives us leverage, like a hammer. Yea fasting is also a tool.

This reminds me of that shabad by Guru Nanak Dev ji. Here he is giving people advice on how to meditate.
He is actually describing the meditation process as if it were done with a bunch of tools.

Let's see what he is saying.

ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ ॥
(ਜਤੁ) Ability to Withdraw the Five Senses from the world is the (ਪਾਹਾਰਾ) Workshop.
(ਧੀਰਜੁ) Patience is the (ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ) Goldsmith.

ਅਹਰਣਿ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਦੁ ਹਥੀਆਰੁ ॥
(ਮਤਿ) Intellligence is the (ਅਹਰਣਿ) Anvil.
(ਵੇਦੁ) Vedas - listening to spiritual texts - is the (ਹਥੀਆਰੁ) Hammer.

ਭਉ ਖਲਾ ਅਗਨਿ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ ॥
Blow through the (ਖਲਾ) Pipe (ਭਉ ) the Fear of God, and increase the heat of the (ਅਗਨਿ) Fire.
This is called (ਤਪ) Tapasaya.

ਭਾਂਡਾ ਭਾਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ ॥ ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ ॥
In the (ਭਾਂਡਾ) container of (ਭਾਉ) Love - your heart - (ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ) pour in the molten gold - (ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ) Amrit.

Amrit needs a bit of an elaboration here because there is no substitute word in English. Amrit means A - non, Mrityu - Death. It means non-death, non-dying. It is referring to the subjective, the qualitative state of eternity.

Imagine eternity not as a quantitative state, not as in -  "How many years?" - that's quantity.
But rather as a qualitative state, as in - "How long is 1 minute?" - that's quality.

The word Boredom comes somewhat close. For example, when you are bored in class, the clock seems to be ticking a lot slower. So Amrit is like a sweet, joyful boredom. The clock ticks slower, as if it were eternity.


ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ ॥
(Take this Amrit and pour it into the mould of Love) and mint the Gold coins of your guru's words - his or her instructions.

ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥੩੮॥
Those who are looked upon kindly by their guru, they find out how to do this method. And when they apply the method, they are liberated.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ ॥
> (ਜਤੁ) Ability to Withdraw the Five Senses from the world is the (ਪਾਹਾਰਾ) Workshop.
> (ਧੀਰਜੁ) Patience is the (ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ) Goldsmith.
> 
> ...



It's just mind-blowing how he described it using hammers and stuff!

Withdraw senses from world = now you got your inner space, this is your workshop.
If you are not patient, you will break/leave this space. So you have to be patient to maintain state in order to progress.

Your intelligence is what the spiritual texts must strike on. Your soul becomes the basis for the spiritual texts to have their effect on you. You need to constantly hit your intelligence with spiritual texts in order to make something out of it.

You need to have a Fear of God, because this will make your fire hot. The fire he is referring to is alertness/consciousness. The fear of God, as it increases, is like increasing alertness.

Why is there fear of God?
So you are becoming more and more conscious. The more conscious you become the more God comes in. When more God comes in to you, you will become frigthened, because you will now start dying. Your haumai/ego will start dying the natural response of your ego to death is of fear.

So the more fear there is, the better the flame of consciousness.

But there can't just be fear because then you'd wana run. There has to be love for this type of state, otherwise you will be out of there quickly. So in that love, pour in eternity, that is, maintain this state for long period of time, and use the guru's instructions to stay there and experience God, and let him in fully.

Effing brilliant!


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 21, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> *ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਪਟੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥*
> His says "Hari Hari" but engages in (ਕਪਟੁ) Untruth so his heart does not become pure.
> Hari is the Truth so if you engage in actions that are Untruthful in nature, that lead away from Him, clearly you aren't going to obtain Him.


I can clearly see that if by repeating Hari hari you still are engaged in deception, then you need to reassess as per gurmat whether this ritual is worth. Similarly, '  ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਕੀਜੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਜਪੰਨਾ ॥ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਸੁਧੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਅਪਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ thus I need to work to purify my mind and ਨਾਮੇ ਕੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਲਾਹਿ ਲੇ ਝਗਰਾ ॥  I have settled my confusion and now ਰਾਮ ਰਸਾਇਨ ਪੀਓ ਰੇ ਦਗਰਾ ॥੩॥੪॥ I focus on sublime essence. Guru sahib took pain to compile 1430 pages in different rages, got himself martyred and explained through different six thousands sabd how to be sachiar,how to purify the mind.  They are not meant for meditation but practically living.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 21, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> Withdraw senses from world = now you got your inner space, this is your workshop.



what happened to living as householders? Where is all this leading? What is the goal?



BhagatSingh said:


> Your intelligence is what the spiritual texts must strike on. Your soul becomes the basis for the spiritual texts to have their effect on you. You need to constantly hit your intelligence with spiritual texts in order to make something out of it.



Please define for me 'hit your intelligence', how does one do that?



BhagatSingh said:


> You need to have a Fear of God, because this will make your fire hot.



Where are you getting all this from?



BhagatSingh said:


> Why is there fear of God?
> So you are becoming more and more conscious. The more conscious you become the more God comes in. When more God comes in to you, you will become frigthened, because you will now start dying. Your haumai/ego will start dying the natural response of your ego to death is of fear.
> 
> So the more fear there is, the better the flame of consciousness.
> ...



Just forget science for a minute, but love, fear, altered states, what good is all of it?
What is the end goal?
Are you able to answer my questions?

I consider myself to be joined with God, maybe not in the trippy way you describe, but its good enough for me.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> I can clearly see that if by repeating Hari hari you still are engaged in deception, then you need to reassess as per gurmat whether this ritual is worth. Similarly, '  ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਕੀਜੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਜਪੰਨਾ ॥ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਸੁਧੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਅਪਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ thus I need to work to purify my mind and ਨਾਮੇ ਕੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਲਾਹਿ ਲੇ ਝਗਰਾ ॥  I have settled my confusion and now ਰਾਮ ਰਸਾਇਨ ਪੀਓ ਰੇ ਦਗਰਾ ॥੩॥੪॥ I focus on sublime essence.


If you read the rest of the shabad, Guru Sahib says they are not actually meditating. The shabad is about people who are engaging in falsehood by pretending to meditate. Guru Sahib their mind is distracted and they are not focusing on Hari single-pointedly so the will never be coloured correctly.

So the shabad you posted to justify your post, is not actually doing that. It's talking about how these people are NOT meditating when they should be.



> Guru sahib took pain to compile 1430 pages in different rages, got himself martyred and explained through different six thousands sabd how to be sachiar,how to purify the mind.  They are not meant for meditation but practically living.



In the other 1429 pages, Guru Sahib is -
1. telling us to meditate
2. telling us why to meditate
3. telling us how to meditate
4. telling us how to meditate correctly
5. telling us about avoid traps and pitfalls on the way and how to overcome them
6. inspiring us to meditate by giving tons of examples of people who meditated Prehlaad, Dhruv, Ajamal, Sudama, etc, tons and including themselves and Saints and Bhagats.
7. telling us to meditate so much that it becomes 24/7 meditation, that it happens even during sleep!
8. telling us about the kinds of experiences you will have while meditating
9. telling us about the significance of these experiences
10. describing high-level meditation experiences, the kind where you are work from abc--> all the way to xyz. The very end-game experiences that only a rare few can have.
Why don't you read the other 1429 pages where all this is mentioned?

Let me extend an olive branch to you.

I am not saying engaging in falsehood, is good. That should be clear from my post, that it's bad and it will turn you away from Hari.

I know there's lots of shabads in Guru Granth that say "don't engage in falsehood", maintain morally superior conduct and so on. I get that.

I know there are lots of stories about Hirakashap and Ravan, people who meditated a lot but Fked it all up though shitty moral conduct. I have read those. I get that.

I think good moral conduct as well meditation is important. I don't think any of them should be left out.

let me repeat.
how does one lead a healthy life?
1. Exercise
2. Nutrition
3. Rest
4. Moral Conduct
5. Meditation

You cannot skip any of those.

If you come to me and tell me, you meditate, but you don't exercise, you eat chips and coke, you don't get any rest and are shitty to your parents.

I will tell you to stop worrying about meditation and focus on 1-4. Funny enough. I have never actually met anyone like that. All the people I know who meditate already have 1-4 handled pretty well.

But I meet people who don't meditate, who don't exercise, who don't sleep, who don't consume greens and veggies, who are morally pathetic, all the time!

And here you are, I am assuming you got 1-4 down, but you don't meditate. What do you expect me to say to you?

Of course, I will say you should probably work on number 5 because Guru Granth Sahib also says this and because you already got the other 4 ingredients taken care of.


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## Original (Jul 21, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> If you read the rest of the shabad, Guru Sahib says they are not actually meditating. The shabad is about people who are engaging in falsehood by pretending to meditate. Guru Sahib their mind is distracted and they are not focusing on Hari single-pointedly so the will never be coloured correctly.
> 
> So the shabad you posted to justify your post, is not actually doing that. It's talking about how these people are NOT meditating when they should be.
> 
> ...



Easy Tiger !


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 21, 2015)

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Welcome back and I hope you stick around because we can all learn from you. My first lesson from you is to define Meditation as per SGGS, our only Guru. 

1.Is there only one word or multiple ones that describe meditation in the SGGS?



> I know there's lots of shabads in Guru Granth that say "don't engage in falsehood", maintain morally superior conduct and so on. I get that.



Who has the benchmark meter to know the difference?

Please post  the whole Shabads with your own understanding about the above.

Thanks 

Tejwant Singh

A note to the Mods: It would help if it is possible to join the two threads because Yoga/Simran/ Meditation as all three are co-related.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 21, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> let me repeat.
> how does one lead a healthy life?
> 1. Exercise
> 2. Nutrition
> ...



I skip 4 of these on a regular basis


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 21, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> 1. telling us to meditate
> 2. telling us why to meditate
> 3. telling us how to meditate
> 4. telling us how to meditate correctly
> ...


Can you kindly list one whole shabad with your understanding so as I understand how you arrive at above to meditate and its benefit.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 21, 2015)

Bhagat Singh says:


> let me repeat.
> how does one lead a healthy life?
> 1. Exercise
> 2. Nutrition
> ...



Harry Haller Replies



harry haller said:


> I skip 4 of these on a regular basis



Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for being honest and blunt about your own frailties which many of us are not able to do because we look like Sikhs which is our only calling card.

Kaam, Krodh, Lobh, Moh, Hankaar are the five thieves that Gurbani gives us the tools how to lasso them to our advantage. Through Gurbani we can shepard them in our inner corral. They can  not be gotten rid off because they are part of our DNA. As one or more escape from our fence most of the times, it is nothing but a pipe dream that Bhagat ji has said because the same Mantra is used by the Derawalas in their non profit corporations.

Bhagat ji, please feel free to pitch in with the help of Gurbani about your five keys to success mentioned above.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

Bhaji 
I have already answered your first question in depth, in previous replies to this thread. Kindly read those replies and let me know if you have any questions or objections to it.



Tejwant Singh said:


> Who has the benchmark meter to know the difference?


One who excels at meditation gains the understanding and the bibek required to know which action is morally superior given their current situation. They gain insight into the moment, and thus they obtain the freedom to take the morally superior action. Their anxiety and fear is reduced and they gain increased compassion for living things.

The other way is to consult with someone who is morally superior than you, who excels at meditation, e.g. Guru Sahibs. The third is to consult books by such people e.g. Guru Granth Sahib.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> Can you kindly list one whole shabad with your understanding so as I understand how you arrive at above to meditate and its benefit.


And take away your opportunity to read 1439 pages of Guru Granth Sahib? I couldn't do that lol.

If you are looking for a shabad to start your quest to read 1439 pages of Guru Granth Sahib with, you can look at the same post where I analyzed the shabad you presented. I loaded that up with other shabads that you can look at.

Happy reading!


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## Original (Jul 21, 2015)

STANZA 38

This stanza has its own special place in Guru Nanak's Jap Ji. The very essence of moral living and spiritual practice required for God-realisation, expressed as a metaphor, forms the basis of a good human trait. Using the goldsmith [ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ] and his workshop as an analogy where ornaments [gold] are made, Guru Nanak explains the vital technique for the soul [human] to attain oneness with waheguru - it is in this perfect mint of shabd that the soul [ornament] is moulded.

Saints n Sages [meditators] have manipulated the use of language to conceal the essence of their profound experiences, which requires detailed examination to fully appreciate their meaning and worth.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

Original said:


> STANZA 38
> 
> This stanza has its own special place in Guru Nanak's Jap Ji. The very essence of moral living and spiritual practice required for God-realisation, expressed as a metaphor, forms the basis of a good human trait. Using the goldsmith [ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ] and his workshop as an analogy where ornaments [gold] are made, Guru Nanak explains the vital technique for the soul [human] to attain oneness with waheguru - it is in this perfect mint of shabd that the soul [ornament] is moulded.
> 
> Saints n Sages [meditators] have manipulated the use of language to conceal the essence of their profound experiences, which requires detailed examination to fully appreciate their meaning and worth.


Original what do oyu think about my translation and interpretation of it?
Did you find that it matched your experience of meditation?


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

harry haller said:


> I skip 4 of these on a regular basis


My post wasn't directed at you but at Japji. But it's good to know where your strengths and weaknesses lie. I still accept you as a friend regardless of that.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 21, 2015)

All our posts are directed at everyone, that is the beauty of a forum, in any case, after much thinking, I am afraid its all 5 that I skip on a regular basis.


BhagatSingh said:


> One who excels at meditation gains the understanding and the bibek required to know which action is morally superior given their current situation. They gain insight into the moment, and thus they obtain the freedom to take the morally superior action. Their anxiety and fear is reduced and they gain increased compassion for living things.



I would take issue with this, I have no fear and no anxiety, I have a huge compassion for all living things, that I try and implement in my life, and given the rock n roll life I had, its amazing the insight that gives, as well as the perception, I am not sure about morally superior action, I tend to go for the truthful action., yet I do not excel at meditation!


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 21, 2015)

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.



> Bhaji
> I have already answered your first question in depth, in previous replies to this thread. Kindly read those replies and let me know if you have any questions or objections to it.



Is the above directed to me? If it is, then I am sorry to say, I do not see where you have answered it. I can see one Shabad in post#64 of yours but that does not answer my question.


> Is there only one word or multiple ones that describe meditation in the SGGS?



Can you please elaborate it?

My other question.




> Who has the benchmark meter to know the difference?



Your response:



> One who excels at meditation gains the understanding and the bibek required to know which action is morally superior given their current situation. They gain insight into the moment, and thus they obtain the freedom to take the morally superior action. Their anxiety and fear is reduced and they gain increased compassion for living things.



So, are you trying to say, it is about meism where one decides by him/herself the level one is on?



> The other way is to consult with someone who is morally superior than you, who excels at meditation, e.g. Guru Sahibs. The third is to consult books by such people e.g. Guru Granth Sahib.



What is the modus operandi for the above?
Is it in the SGGS, our only Guru?
Please post the shabads that confirm your claim.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

harry haller said:


> All our posts are directed at everyone, that is the beauty of a forum, in any case, after much thinking, I am afraid its all 5 that I skip on a regular basis.


Sure. I just wanted to clarify. 
You are welcome to comment on anything I post to anyone.



> I would take issue with this, I have no fear and no anxiety, I have a huge compassion for all living things, that I try and implement in my life, and given the rock n roll life I had, its amazing the insight that gives, as well as the perception, I am not sure about morally superior action, I tend to go for the truthful action., yet I do not excel at meditation!


Your point?


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> Bhagat Singh ji,
> Guru Fateh.
> Is the above directed to me? If it is, then I am sorry to say, I do not see where you have answered it. I can see one Shabad in post#64 of yours but that does not answer my question.


Indeed I was replying your post. 
I posted the definition multiple times in this thread.



> Can you please elaborate it?
> So, are you trying to say, it is about meism where one decides by him/herself the level one is on?
> What is the modus operandi for the above?
> Is it in the SGGS, our only Guru?


Let's go one by one.
Let's start with the definition of meditation. Let me know what your thoughts are on the definition I provided.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 21, 2015)

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh,

The confusion occurred because you started your response by addressing 'Bhaji' and then you carried on with my name.

Would you be kind enough to share it again and also does Gurbani uses one word or multiple words for "meditation" as translated into English. If the latter is true, then do all those words in Gurmukhi mean the same- Meditation?

As you put it, 


> Let's go one by one.
> Let's start with the definition of meditation. Let me know what your thoughts are on the definition I provided



Tejwant Singh


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 21, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> *ਗਿਆਨੀ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਕੋਰੈ ਰੰਗੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਚੜੈ ਜੇ ਲੋਚੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥*
> Without a coach, who can guide you, you cannot do meditation. Without that, the colour cannot be retained on the cloth.
> 
> So now we know Guru Sahib is saying that this person , who engages in falsehood, cannot do meditation. That a teacher is required, who can teach you the correct methods. A cloth that hasn't been treated deeply by a professional dyer cannot retain colour not matter how hard it tries. The dyer knows how to dye correctly, so consult him when you want your clothes dyed correctly.
> ...


Now I know where the basic difference in understanding the gurbani comes. The whole of gurbani moves around 'kiv sachiara hoeyea.  You have interpreted 'ਗਿਆਨੀ' as couch whereas this is rahao pankti which is the central idea of the shabad and it is pointing towards myself as a first person.   And guru sahib is addressing to my over confident manh as 'ਗਿਆਨੀ' and not to third person as coach. And 'ਭਗਤਿ' is with sihari thus is not meditation as you have translated but is bhagat avastha an exercise to transmit the message received from conscience to your indray and gian indray( ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਐਸੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਨਿ ਆਈ ॥) If you agree with my understanding, please confirm


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## Original (Jul 21, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> Original what do oyu think about my translation and interpretation of it?
> Did you find that it matched your experience of meditation?



Dear Bhagat Singh 

Beautifully translated and interpreted [although, wider interpretations have been construed by other commentators] but yes, all in all, beautiful.

As regards matching meditation experiences, that's an exclusive zone, very much reserved for the individual. I once wrote *jeevat maryia bhav jal teryia, *and you wanted to know more. Well, Gur Ghar knew the art of dying [vacating the body]. I believe true seekers like you will come to know and experience - it's only a matter of time. 

For reference, let me say in strict confidence to help advance individual seekers journey further, the soul does take to wings. Some of the wordings from pauri 34 to 37 of Jap Ji Sahib will begin to resonate with some of the experiences.

The butterfly knows nothing of the lift, wind speed, air resistance, vacuum, or indeed physics in general. This doesn't prevent it from flying because it was born to fly. Emerged from the cocoon with the ability to do something it could never understand. Similarly, the human soul takes to wings into the worlds from whence it came - journey home [jeevat maryia bhav jal teryia. Translation: die while alive n swim ocean of life].

Spiritual Sikhi is beautiful and I hope you will, through your aesthetic experience [painting] be able to better express the spiritual, the contemplative Sikh.

Goodnight


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> You have interpreted 'ਗਿਆਨੀ' as couch whereas this is rahao pankti which is the central idea of the shabad and it is pointing towards myself as a first person.   And guru sahib is addressing to my over confident manh as 'ਗਿਆਨੀ' and not to third person as coach.


You are absolutely right. But you have to read further.

*ਗਿਆਨੀ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
Without a coach, who can guide you, you cannot do meditation.*

I haven't translated Gyani as coach, because in that shabad Guru Sahib is calling an Agyani as Gyani. Which would require an entirely new thread to elaborate as to why he is doing that.

The people in the shabad are agyani because they don't have a guru, and (ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਧਾਵੈ) are completely distracted, not meditating at all.

So I actually translated *ਗੁਰ *as coach. Guru is the teacher who teaches you how to do Bhagati/meditation. * ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ*




japjisahib04 said:


> And 'ਭਗਤਿ' is with sihari thus is not meditation as you have translated but is bhagat avastha


Absolutely. I am aware of that interpretation also, it's correct afaik. But as I replied to Ishna, this interpretation is the XYZ of meditation. When there are people who don't know the ABC, I don't find it particularly useful to go on about XYZ when ABC is yet to be understood. XYZ is completely out of reach for most people like that and it just gives them a false conception of what is being talked about.

However where I disagree with you, in your reply is that you are saying or implying that "the ABC of meditation is different from XYZ". I don't think it's taht different. and I think mosty people won't simply jump to XYZ, they need to go through ABCDEFGH... etc to get to XYZ.  Only a rare few receive XYZ through Guru's grace or Parmatma's grace. Most people have to start from ABC.

If you are interested in discussing this point. We can take this discusion to a different thread or PMs if you so please.


japjisahib04 said:


> an exercise to transmit the message received from conscience to your indray and gian indray


In that new thread/PM, you should also elaborate on what you mean by this statement. So we can discuss that too.

But yeah with regards to the other shabad, I confirm your post.  It was nice to see it! As soon as I see Gurbani I jump to read it!


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 21, 2015)

Original man. You are like a pool of cool water, an oasis in the desert. man nu shanti a jandi hai. 
I mean I don't know how much gyan you have, I haven't spoken to you or observed you enough to be able to judge how much I can receive but I always enjoy your posts.
But I haven't done justice to them because I haven't really responded to them. (I did however take some time to read them all)


Original said:


> Beautifully translated and interpreted [although, wider interpretations have been construed by other commentators] but yes, all in all, beautiful.


Actually to be honest, that's not completely my interpretation. If you liked it then I won't take all the credit, the actual persons who helped me deserve some credit as well. If you really really liked it, then I won't take any credit then! Then you should consider it as if I didn't write it at all and go have a look at the people who actually interpreted it, and check out their work instead of my post!




Original said:


> As regards matching meditation experiences, that's an exclusive zone, very much reserved for the individual. I once wrote *jeevat maryia bhav jal teryia, *and you wanted to know more. Well, Gur Ghar knew the art of dying [vacating the body]. I believe true seekers like you will come to know and experience - it's only a matter of time.


Indeed! I would add Guru Ghar knew not only the art of dying. But the art of remaining dead, ie dying everyday, until you die completely and never come back (or only come back to do specific tasks). 

Yesterday I actually went back to taht thread (where you said that) to read the posts you made after I left. maybe one day we can discuss more. I think it's best if in this thread we stick to the ABC, otherwise, we'll just lose people. If they don't already think we are lunatics, they will after we start going on about soul wings and such.



Original said:


> The butterfly knows nothing of the lift, wind speed, air resistance, vacuum, or indeed physics in general. This doesn't prevent it from flying because it was born to fly. Emerged from the cocoon with the ability to do something it could never understand.


This is very true. And this is actually how I got into meditation. 

I haven't told you (or anyone else here, for that matter,) about myself that much. here's a little bit- 

I used to be mostly atheist, ie I didn't know who Hari was/is/will be. So being the practical scientific kinda guy, I saw no evidence. Seeing no evidence, I thought it was the honest thing to do was to admit that He is not really there. At this time I was also quite materialistic and read The God Delusion and such books. 

My dad who is currently chilling with Hari at the moment, used to point that out to me back then (that I had become materialistic) and I didn't quite understand him and his beliefs and waht he was saying... until much later... happy ending though because at that point our relationship deepened a lot because I began to understand what he was talking about and he began to understand me and we started to actually enjoy each other's company. anyway more on that later.

I mean I was meditating during the atheist, materialistic phase (was also painting Sikh history stuff, which I had to break from due to my phase) but I only meditated because I had met with scientific-type folks who did (heard of Sam Harris?) and read scientific papers about health benefits of meditation. I am Bio major, Psych minor. So for Psych classes I could make meditation papers a part of our assignments, that way I could read them and do my assignment at the same time!

So back then it was mostly to relax and recharge the brain, so just for the health benefits. but I did have a routine to try and get a good amount done. Like 20 minutes per day was my minimum goal. I noticed that if I did that and kept my diet and exercise in check, I felt great and pretty much always Chardi kala ready to handle anything, and I mean anything.

It wasn't until much later that I had this butterfly-type experience (that I think you are talking about). Where I didn't know I could "fly", but I did it anyway. Once I did it, it made complete sense which hadn't made sense prior to. That pretty much resulted in like a 100 paradigm shifts over a matter of months! mindblowing new knowledge, like a catterpillar learning to fly. What was the source? That was also there and I saw for myself, though this happened much much later.

I don't just enjoy spirituality through aesthetics. I mean I definitely enjoy it through that but one of the cool things about painting is that I can meditate while painting.

So it's constantly- 
ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਬੋਲਤ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਾ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਤੋਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ The followers of Hari chant "Shri Ram" and in the company of advanced practitioners, they move towards Hari.

It's always on, I am always singing along while painting.



Original said:


> Spiritual Sikhi is beautiful and I hope you will, through your aesthetic experience [painting] be able to better express the spiritual, the contemplative Sikh.


Indeed. That's been a recent theme in my paintings of the Gurus (E.g. Guru Arjun Dev ji). I tried my best to depict meditation in that one, and accessing that pool, that is, Hari gives one a flow of cool drink while being burned alive. This is the greatness of our guru, Guru Arjun Dev ji.

I hope to do it even better and 1-up my previous work. If you have any particular thoughts about my paintings, would love to hear. I can take criticism as well. So let it rip.


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## Original (Jul 22, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> Original man. You are like a pool of cool water, an oasis in the desert. man nu shanti a jandi hai.
> I mean I don't know how much gyan you have, I haven't spoken to you or observed you enough to be able to judge how much I can receive but I always enjoy your posts.
> But I haven't done justice to them because I haven't really responded to them. (I did however take some time to read them all)
> 
> ...



Good morning Bhagat Singh [05:57 UK]

Enjoyed reading your post, there is a lot more I have for you. SPN is a medium through which the "word" of Gur Ghar filters out to those who were "meant" to be the recipients.

We may never meet and you will never know who I am, but rest assure the word of Gur Ghar I share with you has all the ingredients.

I'm switching off for most of the day today because I've got business meetings in the North of England and will be back in London [home] early evening.

Let me leave you with this :

"....much of my creativity came from the fact that I looked for the hidden meaning behind every event in my life. I now look at every thing that happen to me and ask myself, if this event were a metaphor in the poem of my life and what it might mean ?.....I assume that behind every development is something else, something meaningful, a hidden gift, that if received with grace and used with reverence, invites me a step higher on my journey". 


Bye for now !


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## Harry Haller (Jul 22, 2015)

I would take issue with this, I have no fear and no anxiety, I have a huge compassion for all living things, that I try and implement in my life, and given the rock n roll life I had, its amazing the insight that gives, as well as the perception, I am not sure about morally superior action, I tend to go for the truthful action., yet I do not excel at meditation!


BhagatSingh said:


> One who excels at meditation gains the understanding and the bibek required to know which action is morally superior given their current situation. They gain insight into the moment, and thus they obtain the freedom to take the morally superior action. Their anxiety and fear is reduced and they gain increased compassion for living things.
> 
> The other way is to consult with someone who is morally superior than you, who excels at meditation, e.g. Guru Sahibs. The third is to consult books by such people e.g. Guru Granth Sahib.





BhagatSingh said:


> Your point?



so where in your three ways  do I fit in?  Is it possible there are more ways to achieve the above? why do you feel you have the monopoly on the path?
I also note you have answered none of my questions so far, so is it just rhetoric?


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## Ishna (Jul 22, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> Ishna can you read gurmukhi? If you can, I would suggest you try to abandom the english translations and start working from raw Gurmukhi. There's a dictionary on Srigranth.org that connects to Mahan Kosh (the great dictionary) and it's wicked.
> 
> 
> In a nutshell -
> ...



I can read Gurmukhi and I have a couple of resources for translating it.  I agree, srigranth's resources are great!

~~

What you have is the practise of yoga and meditation and the resulting sensation.

For you to call this science you must have the following:

A clear definition of this sensation
A clear and falsifiable hypothesis as to what this sensation is
A method of testing that your hypothesis is the correct explanation for the sensation
An examination of other possible explanations for the sensation
An explanation as to why your hypothesis is the better than the others
And all this must be done ONLY using the practises of yoga and meditation.

Please keep in mind I'm not arguing against oneness and the value of practices to realise and live in that state of oneness.  I'm just saying that meditation/yoga shouldn't be called something it is not (a science), or else it is open to a level of scrutiny it would fail to satisfy.  All because it's not 'science' doesn't mean it is any less real, practical or applicable  .  And calling it 'science' does not give it any more credibility.

~~

And just because I like to stir things up sometimes, I note that meditation and yoga and conspicuously absent from Guru Nanak's workshop, even though you say he is describing the meditation process.

Your translation of the word _jat(u)_ [*ਜਤੁ*] here is fascinating.  Also, I really appreciate your interpretation of _amrit.  _I've never head it put that way, it's quite beautiful and is logically consistent with Gurbani as a whole.  10/10 

Now I want to discuss more about the Gold Coins we should mint, and more about the Guru looking kindly upon us (_nadar)_.

But first, can you talk more about how this 38th paurhi of Jap Ji Sahib on panna 8 is actually describing the meditation process, please?

I'm enjoying learning from you, thanks for sharing.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 22, 2015)

Original said:


> "....much of my creativity came from the fact that I looked for the hidden meaning behind every event in my life. I now look at every thing that happen to me and ask myself, if this event were a metaphor in the poem of my life and what it might mean ?.....I assume that behind every development is something else, something meaningful, a hidden gift, that if received with grace and used with reverence, invites me a step higher on my journey".


Interestingly enough I never used to see if there was any meaning behind events, behing what was happening to me. While I am still skeptical of all my thoughts and experiences, I actually take the time out to assess my life and see what kind of meanings emerge. It's interesting the kinds of things that come up.




harry haller said:


> I would take issue with this, I have no fear and no anxiety, I have a huge compassion


You are reading my posts as if they are binary. Black or white. When it's not this or that but a continuum of greys.
I said meditation directly reduces fear and anxiety and increases compassion even in an already fearless, compassion-ful person. It's a tool to gain those things, amongst others. So if you think you are not anxious or fearful and have all the compassion you need then good for you. If you think meditation cannot help further reduce your negative emotions and pump up things like compassion even further, then move on.



harry haller said:


> I also note you have answered none of my questions so far, so is it just rhetoric?


You said you are not interested in meditation several times while I was trying to communicate somethings to you. There are other people in this thread who are interested in meditation, who are making the effort to post and to talk about Gurbani. I have a limited amount of time in my day to reply to posts. Therefore, I am prioritizing other people's questions over yours. I am sorry I just don't have time right now. Maybe in the future.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 22, 2015)

Ishna said:


> I can read Gurmukhi and I have a couple of resources for translating it. I agree, srigranth's resources are great!


They truly are!
When did that happen? how did you learn? i remember several years ago you couldn't.




Ishna said:


> What you have is the practise of yoga and meditation and the resulting sensation.


Yea but not just sensations but also things like reduction in negative emotions like anxiety and increase in positive emotions like compassion.



Ishna said:


> And all this must be done ONLY using the practises of yoga and meditation.


1-5 sure. But this? No!
Eckharte Tolle, for example, just suffered all his life and lived in a state of depression and anxiety. One day randomly he became enlightened and he went from there.

So it's not as black and white as you think, and really it doesn't need to be as black and white, for it to be a science. For example Physics Question- is light a wave or a particle? The real answer is grey, not black and white.



Ishna said:


> Please keep in mind I'm not arguing against oneness and the value of practices to realise and live in that state of oneness. I'm just saying that meditation/yoga shouldn't be called something it is not (a science), or else it is open to a level of scrutiny it would fail to satisfy. All because it's not 'science' doesn't mean it is any less real, practical or applicable  . And calling it 'science' does not give it any more credibility.


I already understand these things.

noun: *science*

the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of *the physical and natural world* through observation and experiment.

The definition above is biased because it doesn't include the subjective and spiritual world. Let me mend this definition.


noun: *science*

the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of *phenomenon* through observation and experiment.

This is better. Because it now includes Psychology and Yog Vidya. For example Carl Jung who is a big name is Psychology is not studying material or physical phenomenon, he studying spiritual phenomenon. Yet it is still science.

Basically material science is a study of material phenomenon. <- In western culture only these are recognized as "true sciences". Those born here have never heard of such a thing as "study of subjective experience" that sounds like hokum to them. This is why the google definition is biased because it''s a product of western culture.

Spiritual science is a study of spiritual phenomenon and subjective experience. Yog vidya is a spiritual science. <- In eastern cultures these too are true sciences.

The Yog Sutra of Patanjali starts with -
योगश्चित्तवृत्तिनिरोधः ॥२॥
yogaś-citta-vṛtti-nirodhaḥ ||2||
When you are in a state of yoga, all misconceptions (vrittis) that can exist in the mutable aspect of human beings (chitta) disappear. ||2||

This is the hypothesis. And it goes to define the misconceptions. It says there are five of them.

Five types of misconceptions are -
1. Measurement/perception (another word would be sensory experience)
2. Errors (in measurement/perception)
3. Imagination/Mind-made forms
4. Sleep
5. Memory.


Then it goes on and you can read the rest of the experiment here-
http://www.ashtangayoga.info/source-texts/yoga-sutra-patanjali/





Ishna said:


> And just because I like to stir things up sometimes, I note that meditation and yoga and conspicuously absent from Guru Nanak's workshop, even though you say he is describing the meditation process.





Ishna said:


> But first, can you talk more about how this 38th paurhi of Jap Ji Sahib on panna 8 is actually describing the meditation process, please?


Well if I said-
fruit
often red, sometimes green, or orangish
sweet, sugary
thin skin
brown tear-drop seeds
hard core with seeds
bitable by human jaw
size of a fist
give it your teacher and be called a teacher's pet
and so on.

What do you think I am talking about?
http://www.ashtangayoga.info/source-texts/yoga-sutra-patanjali/
Once you have tasted an apple, then when someone mentions apple or the qualities of apple then you can picture the apple in your mind. In fact, apple is so iconic, if I simply said "fruit" most people will think of the apple.

Similarly, if you meditate or even just read other parts of Guru Granth Sahib, then you'll know that shabad, even in isolation when you are only presented the shabad by itself, is talking about the meditation process.



Ishna said:


> Your translation of the word _jat(u)_ [*ਜਤੁ*] here is fascinating.


Indeed! I also find it fascinating that we can even do this! Just a few years ago I would have rejected such a thing.
And needless to say it is very difficulty.

So when you click on *ਜਤੁ* or *ਜਤ* in Srigranth. Pay attention to the Gurmukhi translation rather than the english (which is wrong).

It says-
ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਵੱਸ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਖਨਾ

ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ - are the organs that pick sensory information

ਵੱਸ - control (over the sense organs)

And part of gaining control over senses is learning to withdraw their outward-orientation and turn it inward. This is the starting point for advanced level introspection, advanced-level meditation.

You can also increase the amount of sensory information that those sense organs will receive, so it goes both ways. You can decrease the info or increase it. So you can control how much info you wish to receive from the world by simply going within and tuning the knobs of these sensory organs so to speak.

It is truly fascinating!


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## Original (Jul 23, 2015)

Good morning All 

*Bhagat Singh*, let me apologise for part of yesterday's conveyance, the writer of "....much of my creativity came from the fact that I looked for the hidden meaning behind every event in my life....." was Leonardo Da Vinci. Otherwise, your over all communication above, particularly the explanation and reasoning in response to Ishna's evaluations, is succiently written, well held position.

Moving on with a view to share some of Bhagat's obligations in addressing the sangat, I'd like to say very briefly, how important it is to remain grounded within the meaning of "sikh" [student]. The fact that you're reading this has all the connotations and the hallmarks of someone who is favoured by evolution to progress in one's quest for the meaning and purpose of life [shabd, or word, or universal consonance, or whatever]. Gur Ghar invites the human soul to reflect [veechar] now n then on the true purpose of human birth, which by virtue, you being a participator on this forum qualifies within the meaning of the word human soul.

Humankind, since the crack of dawn wanted to know everything. It is our insatiable quest that has made us what we are.....hunger for knowledge. The deeper the dive [*veechar* as thought process] the higher the transformation [human metamorphosis]. it is this transformation which the Gur Ghar describes as one of manmukh to gurmukh. That is to say, you reading this have already taken the initial steps for the manh [mind] to look towards the gur [shabd]. Hence, have unwittingly become gurmukh. To test what I'm saying is to pause here and ask yourself, am I enjoying the read ? If affirmative, consider blessed because the enjoyer is the "soul" - this is what Gur Ghar calls parmarath gyan [food for the soul, music notes in literature form].

*Art* and *Science* are two windows if you like, one looking out and the other looking in, albeit, at the one and the same thing. Through these two windows we have come this far as species. If the thing both Art n Science profess to substantiate is one and the same, Gur Ghar offers an alternative [Sikh] and called it "Ik On Kar".

Do you believe me ?

Enjoy the day, it's time for me to become one with nature [physical recreation, that is, training].

Good day !


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## Harry Haller (Jul 23, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> You are reading my posts as if they are binary.


yes, because that's how you write, black and white, definitively.



BhagatSingh said:


> When it's not this or that but a continuum of greys.


no, its pretty black and white



BhagatSingh said:


> I said meditation directly reduces fear and anxiety and increases compassion even in an already fearless, compassion-ful person. It's a tool to gain those things, amongst others



Oh that sounds quite nice and cosy, yeah that's pretty grey actually, but unfortunately what you actually said was

BhagatSingh said: ↑
let me repeat.
how does one lead a healthy life?
1. Exercise
2. Nutrition
3. Rest
4. Moral Conduct
5. Meditation

You cannot skip any of those.

which is not so grey, does meditation help with memory?



BhagatSingh said:


> If you think meditation cannot help further reduce your negative emotions and pump up things like compassion even further, then move on.



no more than drugs can, just my opinion, sorry it is not the same as yours



BhagatSingh said:


> You said you are not interested in meditation several times while I was trying to communicate somethings to you.



If you want to debate that's fine, if you just wish to proselytize without debate, that's different. 



BhagatSingh said:


> There are other people in this thread who are interested in meditation, who are making the effort to post and to talk about Gurbani. I have a limited amount of time in my day to reply to posts. Therefore, I am prioritizing other people's questions over yours. I am sorry I just don't have time right now. Maybe in the future.



hey, don't knock yourself out, whenever your ready, I know your a busy man.
We all have our callings, mine just happens to be laughing at naked emperors walking around with no clothes on-


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 23, 2015)

harry haller said:


> f you





BhagatSingh said:


> I said meditation directly reduces fear and anxiety and increases compassion even in an already fearless, compassion-ful person. It's a tool to gain those things, amongst others. So if you think you are not anxious or fearful and have all the compassion you need then good for you


I am really shocked that meditation directly reduces fear and anxiety. Why don't we make an App and download on our phone to enjoy fearless life. Is it not contradictory that those who promoted meditation have recommended to be fearful of God. Gurmat meditation and prayer is to break wall of falsehood and become sachiar and for this Guru sahib have recommended a simple method to walk as per laws of nature and this law is written with us and it is only the human who revolts against His laws. Guru sahib says, ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਤੂੰ ਆਇਆ ਲਾਹਾ ਲੈਣਿ ॥ਲਗਾ ਕਿਤੁ ਕੁਫਕੜੇ ਸਭ ਮੁਕਦੀ ਚਲੀ ਰੈਣਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ you have been sent to walk as per laws of nature, what useless rituals are you attached to? Your life-night is coming to its end. ||1||Pause|| ' Moreover, where is this law written to sit like a duck and focus on a picture or on one word to waste your precious time. I am looking one pankti of a sabd which recommends to repeat and focus on a picture to automatically attain His grace as *by meditating 'koi mughal n andha hova'.*

Guru sahib have rightly said,  'ਭੋਲਾਵੜੈ ਭੁਲੀ ਭੁਲਿ ਭੁਲਿ ਪਛੋਤਾਣੀ ॥ ਪਿਰਿ ਛੋਡਿਅੜੀ ਸੁਤੀ ਪਿਰ ਕੀ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ it is adultery leaving His guidance behind but running after meditation thus gurbani cautions, 'ਐਸੀ ਕਲਾ ਨ ਖੇਡੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਰਗਹ ਗਇਆ ਹਾਰੀਐ ॥ SGGS 469 that you you get the entry to hear the inner voice.  Rather focus 'ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਵਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਜਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਵਡੀਆ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ॥ *And let God feel pride on you that by following guidance you brought harmony*.    And guru sahib says, 'ਓਥੈ ਸਚੇ ਹੀ ਸਚਿ ਨਿਬੜੈ ਚੁਣਿ ਵਖਿ ਕਢੇ ਜਜਮਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਥਾਉ ਨ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਮੁਹ ਕਾਲ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਦੋਜਕਿ ਚਾਲਿਆ ॥* only those who are sincere by contemplating on sabd' can hear the voice of conscience and all those hypocrate(meditators) are thrown out. SGGS.463.16. *


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## chazSingh (Jul 23, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> My post wasn't directed at you but at Japji. But it's good to know where your strengths and weaknesses lie. I still accept you as a friend regardless of that.



Bhagat Ji

coming across your posts has compelled me to write to you...

firstly, good to hear from you again after so long...from your messages you sound like you're progressing very well on your path ji.

From my own experience of Simran - the process of remembering what has been forgotton - waheguru...i can confirm to you that indeed it has reduced my fears and anxieties...

a good friend of mine once used the following analogy...

if i told you there is a McDonalds restaurant on the top of mount everest...you would think i am crazy, deluded and have very liitle faith in this
if you decided to test this fact...and climb the mountain....your journey would start with a lot of anxiety, fear of the unknown, doubt etc etc...

now along the way, you have a few experiences that seem a little fearful..some falls, rocks falling down toward you...the thought arises to give up and return to the bottom...but something keeps you going

now imagine you're walking up...tired...exhausted....hungry....wondering why you even bothered....
and then.....wooooosh!!!!! you catch the smell of a McChicken Sandwich.....
imagine the boost of energy you receive.....OMG!....maybe this is real!!! maybe there really is a McDonalds at the top.!!!! wooohooooo 
and you keep climbing...now you catch the smell of a Strawberry Milkshake....the fear just vanishing at these experiences....anxiety? what anxiety? full of energy...you climb on...and see the McDonalds sign hanging high over the horizon...

it just keep getting better and better...whats to fear now? whats to be anxious of? you now KNOW!!!!

this is how i felt when the manifestations started within...fears and anxieties just start to go away...and i started to 'know'...'remember'...but i'm still way back at the 'smelling the McChicken sandwich phase...'  ... but it's freaking amazing to know this shizzle is real...

God Bless Ji....Keep in touch (PM me...I won;t be posting much...need to find a spot in the jungle to meditate...it's so hard nowadays as they keep chopping the forests down!)


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## chazSingh (Jul 23, 2015)

actually..i'm at the 'smelling the Spicy Veggie Deli wrap' ... no meat for me nowadays


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 23, 2015)

Original said:


> Moving on with a view to share some of Bhagat's obligations in addressing the sangat, I'd like to say very briefly, how important it is to remain grounded within the meaning of "sikh" [student].





chazSingh said:


> Bhagat Ji
> 
> coming across your posts has compelled me to write to you...


Really, these two posts, just wow! Very beautifully written and explained!



harry haller said:


> If you want to debate that's fine, if you just wish to proselytize without debate, that's different.


Harry your recent post indicates your are quite agitated that I am not responding to your posts. But frankly, there cannot be a debate with those who -
1. refuse to read scientific papers and keep up with new knowledge
2. those who refuse to read Gurbani and learn from original meanings
3. those who speak over-confidently about an acitivty, whilst simultaneously refusing to try the activity in question

If you can't do at least 1 of the 3 then you have to trust me. Since you don't trust me nor accept my views, there is nothing I have left to say to you.

Goodbye! (I'll see you in PMs)



chazSingh said:


> actually..i'm at the 'smelling the Spicy Veggie Deli wrap' ... no meat for me nowadays


I like it! Gotta chow down those hare patte (which also sounds like Leaves of Hari 

(That's a joke for you Harry)


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## Admin (Jul 23, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> Really, these two posts, just wow! Very beautifully written and explained!


Can you explain the _wow factor_ in these two posts... 

We can certainly do much better without this very old fashioned trolling... and I am sure Original / ChazSingh are capable enough to put forward their experiences / beliefs without anybody's stamp of authenticity at every step they take or every comment they make ... rather it makes them look like fakers... Let us behave like a _*Sayana Bacha!*_


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 23, 2015)

japjisahib04 said:


> I am really shocked that meditation directly reduces fear and anxiety.


Don't be. This is common knowledge amongst scientists nowadays.

While I was studying Psychology at university, I read tons of scientific papers on the beneficial effects of meditation on the brain as part of my assignments and sometimes just for fun. I came to understand the benefits of meditation. 

And in my Psychology classes, whenever I brought up meditation to my Psychology Professors, they would answer me and then go on to use that opportunity to briefly explain to the students how meditation is beneficial. The ones who did meditation often had more to add to my comment or question.



> Why don't we make an App and download on our phone to enjoy fearless life.


That would be amazing indeed. How do you propose we make this App?



> Is it not contradictory that those who promoted meditation have recommended to be fearful of God.


Not at all. I mean, yea at first, I too thought it was contradictory, as well, and I didn't really get what fear of God is. I mean how do you become afraid of Him? How do you make that into a method and apply it? I had a lot of questions.

But later I found out that, in reality, that statement is not contradictory. If you understand 1. what fear of God is and 2. why Guru Nanak Dev ji says to have it, then it won't see contradictions anymore. 

Would you like me to share with you why Guru Sahib says to have fear of God?



> Gurmat meditation and prayer is to break wall of falsehood and become sachiar and for this Guru sahib have recommended a simple method to walk as per laws of nature and this law is written with us and it is only the human who revolts against His laws.


*Indeed! I completely agree with that word-for-word. So let's find out where are disagreement is.*



> Guru sahib says, ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਤੂੰ ਆਇਆ ਲਾਹਾ ਲੈਣਿ ॥ਲਗਾ ਕਿਤੁ ਕੁਫਕੜੇ ਸਭ ਮੁਕਦੀ ਚਲੀ ਰੈਣਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ you have been sent to walk as per laws of nature, what useless rituals are you attached to? Your life-night is coming to its end. ||1||Pause||


It doesn't mention meditation, it fact later in that shabad Guru sahib says to meditate. So which ਕੁਫਕੜੇ - fruitless actions is Guru Sahib talking about?



> Moreover, where is this law written to sit like a duck and focus on a picture or on one word to waste your precious time.


1. Where is the law written that if you don't eat healthy, you will not be healthy?
2. Where is the law written that if you throw a ball upwards that it must come down?
3. Where is the law written that time can be wasted?

That's the same place it is written that if you "sit like a duck and focus on a picture or on one word" then you might see God sooner.

That's a funny way of putting it, and I know very well, it sounds absolutely ridiculous. Even to me right now it sounds kinda rubbish lol. But I assure you from personal experience there is something to what Guru Sahib is trying to teach us when he says to - meditate on God by chanting with your tongue and focusing on the sound and the word.



> I am looking one pankti of a sabd which recommends to repeat and focus on a picture to automatically attain His grace as *by meditating 'koi mughal n andha hova'.*


In what other shabads does Guru Sahib tell us to do meditation?



> Guru sahib have rightly said,  'ਭੋਲਾਵੜੈ ਭੁਲੀ ਭੁਲਿ ਭੁਲਿ ਪਛੋਤਾਣੀ ॥ ਪਿਰਿ ਛੋਡਿਅੜੀ ਸੁਤੀ ਪਿਰ ਕੀ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ it is adultery leaving His guidance behind but running after meditation thus gurbani cautions,'ਐਸੀ ਕਲਾ ਨ ਖੇਡੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਰਗਹ ਗਇਆ ਹਾਰੀਐ ॥ SGGS 469 that you you get the entry to hear the inner voice.  Rather focus 'ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਵਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਜਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਵਡੀਆ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ॥ And let God feel pride on you that by following guidance you brought harmony.    And guru sahib says, 'ਓਥੈ ਸਚੇ ਹੀ ਸਚਿ ਨਿਬੜੈ ਚੁਣਿ ਵਖਿ ਕਢੇ ਜਜਮਾਲਿਆ ॥ ਥਾਉ ਨ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਮੁਹ ਕਾਲ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਦੋਜਕਿ ਚਾਲਿਆ ॥ only those who are sincere by contemplating on sabd' can hear the voice of conscience and all those hypocrate(meditators) are thrown out. SGGS.463.16.


Where in that shabad, does Guru Sahib say that you shouldn't meditate?
Hint: it doesn't.

This is whole page of Guru Granth Sahib is good to know so why don't you also focus on shabads where he tells you to meditate, as well as these ones? ie why not also focus on other pages where meditation is prescribed by the doctor guru to us patients? 

(Prescribed to those who are in need of it so that excludes you Harry, you are already an enlightened master)


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 23, 2015)

Admin Singh said:


> Can you explain the _wow factor_ in these two posts...


Sorry bhaji, if it wasn't clear already I can't explain it.



Admin Singh said:


> We can certainly do much better without this very old fashioned trolling... and I am sure Original / ChazSingh are capable enough to put forward their experiences / beliefs without anybody's stamp of authenticity at every step they take or every comment they make ... rather it makes them look like fakers... Let us behave like a _*Sayana Bacha!*_



That is extremely rude. What nasty thing to say.
I am giving them a compliment because I enjoyed their posts. They know that and I know that but my compliment seems to be entirely lost on you. Hmm...



> rather it makes them look like fakers...


...And if they sound fake to anyone here because I displayed my gratitude for their insights then there is something up with you guys, not them.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 23, 2015)

The meaning of Meditation in Gurbani has been ignored on purpose even when asked. Hence, it is futile to discuss "meditation" based on Gurbani without demonstrating what it truly means as per our Gurus in the SGGS, our only Guru.

This rather becomes a journey in the world of me-ism with the me's pounding their chests while mumbling something repeatedly. Nothing else. The name of this forum is Sikh Philosophy and all of us should adhere to that. One should never shy away from explaining the meaning of meditation as per Gurbani but rather be upfront and honest about it.

Tejwant Singh


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## chazSingh (Jul 24, 2015)

Admin Singh said:


> Can you explain the _wow factor_ in these two posts...
> 
> We can certainly do much better without this very old fashioned trolling... and I am sure Original / ChazSingh are capable enough to put forward their experiences / beliefs without anybody's stamp of authenticity at every step they take or every comment they make ... rather it makes them look like fakers... Let is behave like a _*Sayana Bacha!*_


Wow...

As I sit here for morning contemplation...this is such a truly strange comment...and from the site admin?

Anyway. No love lost....thankfully only waheguru can really judge me  back to thinking of my beloved.



God bless


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## Harry Haller (Jul 24, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> Harry your recent post indicates your are quite agitated that I am not responding to your posts


agitated?

yes, I am beside myself


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## Harry Haller (Jul 24, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Wow...
> 
> As I sit here for morning contemplation...this is such a truly strange comment...and from the site admin?
> 
> ...



enjoy your contemplation, I am enjoying my chocolate, we're both happy, I think what Adminji is trying to say is that trolling is not that hard to pick up on, however, that is the price of free speech.

I suppose the self appreciation society just looks funny from outside, from where I am sitting anway, I think its hilarious, 

enjoy!


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## Ishna (Jul 24, 2015)

Thank you for your reply, bhaji BhagatSingh..



BhagatSingh said:


> They truly are!
> When did that happen? how did you learn? i remember several years ago you couldn't.



I can read the Gurmukhi script, and I've been learning a bit about the grammar, but I still don't understand much of the Gurbani, and still need assistance from more learned people and dictionaries.



			
				BhagatSingh said:
			
		

> noun: *science*
> 
> the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of *the physical and natural world* through observation and experiment.
> The definition above is biased because it doesn't include the subjective and spiritual world. Let me mend this definition.
> ...





> Basically material science is a study of material phenomenon. <- In western culture only these are recognized as "true sciences". Those born here have never heard of such a thing as "study of subjective experience" that sounds like hokum to them. This is why the google definition is biased because it''s a product of western culture.
> 
> Spiritual science is a study of spiritual phenomenon and subjective experience. Yog vidya is a spiritual science. <- In eastern cultures these too are true sciences.



Okay, I can appreciate there might be a cultural clash here.  Despite your input, I have to maintain then that from the position of the "Western" definition of science, what you're describing still comes under pseudoscience.

If the "Eastern" definition embraces yoga/meditation as science, then that's fine.



			
				BhagatSingh said:
			
		

> Once you have tasted an apple, then when someone mentions apple or the qualities of apple then you can picture the apple in your mind. In fact, apple is so iconic, if I simply said "fruit" most people will think of the apple.
> 
> Similarly, if you meditate or even just read other parts of Guru Granth Sahib, then you'll know that shabad, even in isolation when you are only presented the shabad by itself, is talking about the meditation process.



This makes sense if you think the Gurbani is describing meditation.  So far in my own studies, I do not think it is.  To me, the Gurbani is talking about achieving an holistic state of mind and being that includes a deep, constant awareness of Ik Onkar which guides and influences our thoughts and actions. 

Perhaps meditation fits in there as a tool to achieve this deep, constant awareness; I don't know yet.  So many tools and techniques themselves are brushed aside by the Gurbani.



> So when you click on *ਜਤੁ* or *ਜਤ* in Srigranth. Pay attention to the Gurmukhi translation rather than the english (which is wrong).



I don't quite have that level of understanding Punjabi yet.



> It says-
> ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਵੱਸ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਖਨਾ
> 
> ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ - are the organs that pick sensory information
> ...



Thank you for the insight into the words!  I love this!!

However, I don't quite agree with your point of view, but I'm not able to articulate why yet.  I get this a lot; I tend to _feel_ the Gurbani to make up for my lack of intellectual knowledge about the language.  Quite often what I _feel_ initially is later validated when I learn enough, intellectually.  For now I can only assume my feeling is informed by what I've encountered in the past and isn't realised in my conscious mind yet.


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## Original (Jul 24, 2015)

Admin Singh said:


> Can you explain the _wow factor_ in these two posts...
> 
> We can certainly do much better without this very old fashioned trolling... and I am sure Original / ChazSingh are capable enough to put forward their experiences / beliefs without anybody's stamp of authenticity at every step they take or every comment they make ... rather it makes them look like fakers... Let is behave like a _*Sayana Bacha!*_



Dear Admin Singh Ji

I hope I'm allowed the liberty to say a few words regarding your text above.

From a host [SPN] perspective, the getting caught up in philosophical assumptions and being emotional, brings about cognitive dissonance, in my view. Whereas, umpiring impartially the debate n discussions to hand, will in my opinion, either confirm the validity of the subject-matter or lead to improvement. This way, it not only increases one's knowledge, but enables individuals to orientate or reorientate themselves and their society for better, which in turn creates conditions for greater fulfilment of one's human potential. Evolution [growth] is fundamentally about relationships between organisms [Bhagat Singh] and their environments [SPN]. 

Divine grace operates unseen and expresses it self in special moments when it is so clearly revealed. Asking Bhagat Singh about the wow n wonder of his expression is like asking a woman, "where is your G spot?". Furthermore, compounding it with a value statement, that it's "old fashioned trolling" can only mean personal bias. Nothing wrong with that since bias is intrinsically natural and is used as tool to one's better judgment. But, not if you're a public body [SPN] where your judicial function is to regulate and not formulate. Bias in this regard is seen as a breach of what is otherwise, on your part, a duty to act fairly.

Personally speaking, Akal Purakh has conferred upon you [SPN] an obligation, a tremendous and a wonderful form of seva to spread the word of Nanank and bring cyber surfers to realise their true potential, believers n non believers alike. We've got beautiful riders n runners on this form who express openly their agendas and together we grow. Kindly watch us and when non- conformance an issue then reprimand.

Much obliged


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## Harry Haller (Jul 24, 2015)

I think adminji is merely commenting on the collective oooohs and aaaaahs regarding the emperors new clothes, I got it......


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## Original (Jul 24, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> That's a funny way of putting it, and I know very well, it sounds absolutely ridiculous. Even to me right now it sounds kinda rubbish lol. But I assure you from personal experience there is *something* to what Guru Sahib is trying to teach us when he says to - meditate on God by chanting with your tongue and focusing on the sound and the word.



And, that *"something"* is your belief, that something is Sikhi. Here is little *something *for you *Bhagat Singh*:

Once, all night long a devotee was chanting *"Allah!" *until his lips grew sweet with praise of Him.The Devil came up to him: "Hey noisy one, after calling so many 'Allahs,' where is the response of 'Here I am' to all these 'Allahs'? I don't hear any response coming from the Throne - how long will you continue chanting 'Allah'?"

The devotee's heart broke and he fell asleep. The devotee in his dream saw a spiritual guide in radiant green, who spoke thus, "You've stopped praising God - why have you repented of having called Him?"
The devotee replied, "Because no* 'Here I am'* came to me in answer, I feared that I might be one who is denied His Door."
Said the spiritual guide, "God wants you to know that every* 'Allah'* of yours is His *'Here I am,'*
and that your prayer and grief and longing are His message to you. God is telling you:
Your efforts to find a way to Me were My drawing you to Me, and it freed your feet from their bonds.
Your trepidation and your love are the rope to catch My blessing - beneath every *'O Lord'* of yours
is many a *'Here I am'* of Mine.' "

More another time, but by-the-by, Gur Teg Bahadhur sat for many years in meditation at Baba Bakala, now known as Gurdwara Bhora Sahib, latitude and longitude of Bakala is 7.11667 14.53333 respectively, in case your an ET and you don't know Sikh history [love n tell - joke].


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 24, 2015)

Original said:


> More another time, but by-the-by, Gur Teg Bahadhur sat for many years in meditation at Baba Bakala, now known as Gurdwara Bhora Sahib, latitude and longitude of Bakala is 7.11667 14.53333 respectively, in case your an ET and you don't know Sikh history


Pity why will Guru Tegh Bahadur sit in a bhora or Guru Gobind Singh do bhagati at Hemkunt Sahib in his previous life when as per gurmat there neither is previous life nor gurmat recommends to renounce family to do bhagati at mountains, especially when gurbani says, 'ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਭ ਦੇਖੇ ਜੋਇ ॥ ਊਹਾਂ ਤਉ ਜਾਈਐ ਜਉ ਈਹਾਂ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥  The wisdom of Ved/Puran is all within you why search all the way to mountains or other so called pilgrimages. SGGS.1195.14.  

What is gurmat meditation or puja then? ਕੈਸੇ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਦਾਸਾ ॥  guru sahib answers ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਅਰਪਉ ਪੂਜ ਚਰਾਵਉ ॥  ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਪਾਵਉ ॥੪॥  Surrender thought process which is not as per gurmat SGGS. 525-13. Now how to judge whether your thought process is as per gurmat  ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਬਿਛੁਰੈ ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਉਣੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥ How can one meet the Lord? How one is separated from Him? Who can reveal the way to me? ||3|| SGGS.131. Oh my manh ਬਾਬਾ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਊਤਮ ਸੇ ਦਰਿ ਊਤਮ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਨੀਚ ਕਰਮ ਬਹਿ ਰੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ SGGS.16 and guru sahib list 'neech karam' in 16th pauree of japjisahib.   Throughout gurbani emphasis on bhebekh budhi and finally says, ਪਿਆਰੇ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਮਿਲਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਮੈ ਕੀਏ ਕਰਮ ਅਨੇਕਾ ॥ ਹਾਰਿ ਪਰਿਓ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਕੈ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਦੀਜੈ ਬੁਧਿ ਬਿਬੇਕਾ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ SGGS.641.18.' Thus gurmat meditation is cultivation of meaningful life by learning divine traits and not wasting time by focussing on one word.

Bhagat Singh - Gurbani has all answers of your question and I will be listing soon.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 24, 2015)

Original ji,

Guru Fateh.



> And, that *"something" is your belief, that something is Sikhi*. Here is little *something *for you *Bhagat Singh*:



And



> [The deeper the dive [*veechar* as thought process] the higher the transformation [human metamorphosis]. it is this transformation which the Gur Ghar describes as one of manmukh to gurmukh].



You keep on hopscotching between the two in several of your posts.It is either one or the other. Which one would you like to choose?




> Once, all night long a devotee was chanting *"Allah!" *until his lips grew sweet with praise of Him.The Devil came up to him: "Hey noisy one, after calling so many 'Allahs,' where is the response of 'Here I am' to all these 'Allahs'? I don't hear any response coming from the Throne - how long will you continue chanting 'Allah'?"
> 
> The devotee's heart broke and he fell asleep. The devotee in his dream saw a spiritual guide in radiant green, who spoke thus, "You've stopped praising God - why have you repented of having called Him?"
> The devotee replied, "Because no* 'Here I am'* came to me in answer, I feared that I might be one who is denied His Door."
> ...



Nice fairy tale. What does that have to do with Sikhi?



> More another time, but by-the-by, Gur Teg Bahadhur sat for many years in meditation at Baba Bakala, now known as Gurdwara Bhora Sahib, latitude and longitude of Bakala is 7.11667 14.53333 respectively, in case your an ET and you don't know Sikh history [love n tell - joke].



It seems that you wholeheartedly believe and approve in the above fairy tale as part of Sikhi while I am certain that this story is totally against our Gurmat concept as shown to us by our Gurus in the SGGS. As you have admirable knowledge in Sikhi, would you be kind enough to explain your belief in the above concocted story as per Sikhi?  

As you believe in the above, please share your views about Hemkunt too because both are borne from the same belief system.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 24, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> The meaning of Meditation in Gurbani has been ignored on purpose even when asked.


Lol "ignore". Duuuude get off your lazy bum already and read what's already been posted several times throughout this small thread. I am sure you are capable of reading through a few pages, as to not interrupt the flow of the discussion that has already proceeded past that point. 

Can you do that?



japjisahib04 said:


> What is gurmat meditation or puja then? ਕੈਸੇ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਦਾਸਾ ॥ guru sahib answers ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਅਰਪਉ ਪੂਜ ਚਰਾਵਉ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਪਾਵਉ ॥੪॥ Surrender thought process which is not as per gurmat SGGS. 525-13. Now how to judge whether your thought process is as per gurmat ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਬਿਛੁਰੈ ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਉਣੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥ How can one meet the Lord? How one is separated from Him? Who can reveal the way to me? ||3|| SGGS.131. Oh my manh ਬਾਬਾ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਊਤਮ ਸੇ ਦਰਿ ਊਤਮ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਨੀਚ ਕਰਮ ਬਹਿ ਰੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ SGGS.16 and guru sahib list 'neech karam' in 16th pauree of japjisahib. Throughout gurbani emphasis on bhebekh budhi and finally says, ਪਿਆਰੇ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਮਿਲਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਮੈ ਕੀਏ ਕਰਮ ਅਨੇਕਾ ॥ ਹਾਰਿ ਪਰਿਓ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਕੈ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਦੀਜੈ ਬੁਧਿ ਬਿਬੇਕਾ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ SGGS.641.18.' Thus gurmat meditation is cultivation of meaningful life by learning divine traits


I agree word-for-word and in spirit up to that point.



> and not wasting time by focussing on one word.


That is anti-gurmat thought process. None of the shabads you have posted so far say what you are saying in this sentence. In fact, this will come as a surprise to you that they say the exact opposite. 



japjisahib04 said:


> Bhagat Singh - Gurbani has all answers of your question and I will be listing soon.


Still waiting Japji. All the shabads you have quoted thus far only urge people to meditate. So I imagine finding one that says the opposite will be quite a struggle. 

Take your time.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 24, 2015)

> "BhagatSingh, post: 202333, member: 2610"]Lol "ignore". Duuuude get off your lazy bum already and read what's already been posted several times throughout this small thread. I am sure you are capable of reading through a few pages, as to not interrupt the flow of the discussion that has already proceeded past that point.
> 
> Can you do that?



Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

There is no need to get angry and rude. I hope this is not the fruit of your meditation that you so gleefully talk about. We are all here to interact and learn from each other. If you do nitnem daily or read a shabad several times, there is no harm is expressing yourself again.

Respect is what one gets from Gurbani, not an attitude. At least that is the case for me.

Enjoy your journey.

Tejwant Singh


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## Ishna (Jul 24, 2015)

@BhagatSingh 

If I can interject before @japjisahib04 has time to reply to you.  It is my firm belief that Gurbani does not tell us to focus on any one word, chant any one word, or sit and meditate on one word.

The Naam is not a word.  I can't describe Naam in its entirety; it is that flavour that gets mentioned, that only the one who tastes it can know.  From what I've experienced (very small tastes of what I think was Naam) Naam is the Sat Naam, the perfect Reality of the universe, the Oneness, the Truth that is there if the veil of illusion is peeled away.

We peel back the veil by contemplating the Shabad, reflecting on life experiences, following the Hukam, and constantly keeping the Oneness, Reality, Naam in mind (remembering, dhiaaee, simran).  This leads us to be virtuous at all times, because it is all One, it is all Ik Onkar.

Loving the Naam, treasuring it in your heart and mind is the real meditation that Gurbani is talking about, I believe.

I would always choose sitting down and reading and reflecting on Gurbani over sitting down and chanting one word.  The lessons learned from the Guru open our mind to perceive the Naam.  Everything else flows from here.  The actual practice of meditation might be useful for easing anxiety and helping us to think more clearly, but I'm not convinced it's the gateway to Truth.  The gateway is the Shabad which is found in the Gurbani and in a virtuous life.

imho.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 24, 2015)

Ishna said:


> Okay, I can appreciate there might be a cultural clash here.


Yeah the larger western culture has no clue. However Psychologists, especially those who are involved with studying meditation, neurology, and abnormal behaviours - basically related fields - definitely do consider it a part of science. 



> Despite your input, I have to maintain then that from the position of the "Western" definition of science, what you're describing still comes under pseudoscience.


Ok but why don't you develop your own understanding by researching it?
As for what western scientists think - you need only look as far as Google Scholar. It should contain many free scientific papers on meditation. 



Ishna said:


> However, I don't quite agree with your point of view, but I'm not able to articulate why yet. I get this a lot; I tend to _feel_ the Gurbani to make up for my lack of intellectual knowledge about the language. Quite often what I _feel_ initially is later validated when I learn enough, intellectually. For now I can only assume my feeling is informed by what I've encountered in the past and isn't realised in my conscious mind yet.


That I admire. Its a relief to hear that you are doing this 
(and not merely contorting intellectual muscles).

Another possibility might be that you haven't grasped the full scope of what I am trying to explain or the larger picture of meditation. Maybe I am not doing a good job at it. I think further discussion will bring us closer no doubt, whether we agree fully or not.

So you said you wanted to hear why I think Pauri 38 is talking about meditation. Let's continue to discuss that -



Ishna said:


> Gurbani is talking about achieving an holistic state of mind and being that includes a deep, constant awareness of Ik Onkar which guides and influences our thoughts and actions.


Right. The gold coins that we are minting.
I agreed with you before when you stated this earlier and I agreed with Japji when he stated it again, and I agree with you now when you repeated yourself again. 

Lol did I mention I agree with this part?



> achieving an holistic state of mind and being that includes a deep, constant awareness of Ik Onkar which guides and influences our thoughts and actions.


Like I said before this is the XYZ, the end-goal. There are many steps before that.

To live continuously in a holistic state of being, where one is deeply immersed in God is hard.

And believe you me this is much harder than it sounds. japji keeps reminding me of that, however I already understand that this is difficult.

What I am really trying (hard) to put forth is the basics of Sikhi. The basic meaning - the ABC, the methodology by which we progress to the goalpost you out-lined.

Methodology is the key word. Guru Sahib is teaching us ways to open up to God.



> So many tools and techniques themselves are brushed aside by the Gurbani.


They are actually not. Guru Sahib is brushing aside the idea that you can simply walk around with the tool and not really apply it and expect that tool to do its job.

Guru Sahib is encouraging people to use the tools they already have. And he also teaches them ( and us) how to use the tools they have (or ones he has given us). This is because Guru Sahib himself knows how to use the tools and so he can guide us on how we can use them as well.

The tools can be difficult to use, this is why it may require much instruction.

So what does that mean when we are talking about meditation or Jap? 

Guru Sahib is saying that if you simply close your eyes and say God's name then you are not applying the tool I have given you; in addition, you also have to focus single-pointedly on His name. 

Let's understand this word by word.

ਗਉੜੀ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Guru Arjun Dev ji explains the Guru's importance and his teachings in Rag Gaurhi

ਬੰਧਨ ਤੋੜਿ ਬੋਲਾਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ॥
The Guru (ਤੋੜਿ) breaks you away from your (ਬੰਧਨ) attachments, and (ਬੋਲਾਵੈ) makes you speak (ਰਾਮੁ) "Ram"! (this is the tool)

ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਸਾਚੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
(He gets you to apply the tool) 
(ਸਾਚੁ) truly/continuously (ਧਿਆਨੁ) focus single-mindedly on Ram, in your (ਮਨ) heart.

ਬੰਧਨ ਤੋੜਿ ਬੋਲਾਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ॥ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਸਾਚੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
Breaking your attachments, the Guru causes you chant the name of Ram, and then you single-mindedly focus on it in your heart.


ਮਿਟਹਿ ਕਲੇਸ ਸੁਖੀ ਹੋਇ ਰਹੀਐ ॥ ਐਸਾ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥੧॥
The (ਕਲੇਸ) suffering is (ਮਿਟਹਿ) eradicated and (ਸੁਖੀ ਹੋਇ ਰਹੀਐ) one begins to live in peace. Such are (ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ) the words of the Guru himself, who (ਦਾਤਾ) is the giver. 

What does he give us? this tool - chant Ram - with the knowledge on how to use it - focus single-mindedly on it.


ਸੋ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਜਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਸੰਗਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
The (ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ) peace-granting Guru makes you (ਜਪਾਵੈ) chant God's name, and like a catalyst, immerses you in God.

ਜਪ - there is that word 'jap' and ਬੋਲ - to say or utter and then to (ਧਿਆਨ) focus single-mindedly on it.

So Guru Arjun Dev ji says the guru is great because the guru teaches this method and that it brings results! And I can attest to his teachings.

So how does this relate to Paurhi 38?


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 24, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> There is no need to get angry and rude.


I am kindly asking you to be polite and read the thread before you interrupt someone about a definition they provided right at the start.


Tejwant Singh said:


> If you do nitnem daily or read a shabad several times, there is no harm is expressing yourself again.


Right back atcha!
If you do nitnem, there is no harm in reading a few posts.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 24, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> I am kindly asking you to be polite and read the thread before you interrupt someone about a definition they provided right at the start.
> 
> Right back atcha!
> If you do nitnem, there is no harm in reading a few posts.


Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

It is sad to notice that the  only person being rude is you. This is a forum not a table chit chat, hence people can pitch in as they want. There is no interruption of any flow here. If you feel perturbed by it , then you should sort it out with yourself.

"Duuuude get off your lazy bum"  is not the way to address anyone in this forum. We can all disagree with each other which we often do but that is a part of our learning process, not frothing. I thought you knew that . Please try to be respectful. Your 'meditation' should teach you that if nothing else.

Now coming back to Gurbani, there is no such term as 'meditation' in Gurbani. It is a mumbo jumbo invented by some for a feel good transitory high only, just like drugs as Harry ji put it.It is nothing but a trip to me-ism.

Gurbani is all about doing good.

Tejwant Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 24, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> "Duuuude get off your lazy bum" is not the way to address anyone in this forum.


It is proper way when they are being lazy. And it is a matter of fact that you didn't read my earlier posts. Even when I very politely requested several times.


Tejwant Singh said:


> If you feel perturbed by it , then you should sort it out with yourself.


It was you who was asking me questions that I had already answered, just prior to your posts. So why didn't you read my posts? Is that not lazy? And then when I pointed out to you that I had already answered them previously. You didn't read them and carried on asking your questions.

Who is being lazy? Who is being rude?




Tejwant Singh said:


> It is sad to notice that the only person being rude is you.


What is actually sad is that you want to have a discussion with me but don't actually want to read my posts. Even posts that are recent, being made as you speak, you don't even read those.

So who is being lazy? Who is being rude?



Tejwant Singh said:


> Please try to be respectful. Your 'meditation' should teach you that if nothing else.





Tejwant Singh said:


> It is a mumbo jumbo invented by some


Come down from your high horse and have a discussion properly. Or prepared to be called out on your laziness, condescending posts and blatantly shitty attitude towards those who disagree with you.

We shall converse tomorrow if you bother reading my posts that are relevant to the questions that you yourself asked me.

And much respect if you do!

Have a good day sir.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 25, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> It is proper way when they are being lazy. And it is a matter of fact that you didn't read my earlier posts. Even when I very politely requested several times.
> 
> It was you who was asking me questions that I had already answered, just prior to your posts. So why didn't you read my posts? Is that not lazy? And then when I pointed out to you that I had already answered them previously. You didn't read them and carried on asking your questions.
> 
> ...




Thanks for exhibiting the results of your meditation. Your rant is not worth responding to post by post.  In case you did not get it, this is a forum where all discuss freely. If one feels one's flow is interrupted, then that person has problems with the self and should sort them out. If help is needed, this forum is here for that. There is no such thing as one to one here. I have read your posts which offer nothing but me-ism which you have been very well known for in this forum for quite some time.

Enjoy your journey. 


Tejwant Singh


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 25, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> If one feels one's flow is interrupted


Have you taken a look at this page? Is that not an interruption of the discussion that is happening? Why not just read what the other person has written before asking them questions?


Tejwant Singh said:


> Your rant is not worth responding to post by post.


After your demonstration, I don't expect you to read my posts, let alone my rants.

My experience with you hasn't been sunshine and rainbows either. So save your analysis and have a good one. God bless.

Let's get back to the topic at hand.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 25, 2015)

Anyone who is has more of an Atheist or Scientific or Anti-Ritual mindset may find this lecture useful in understanding meditation.

Sam Harris, neurologist and atheist, author of books like "End of Faith" and "Free Will", eloquently introduces meditation and strips away mystical tones in order to explain in as simple terms as possible. He got me into it and I hope he can shed some light on it for you too.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 25, 2015)

I know Sam Harris personally. I like him a lot and read his books. He has come around the spiritual part of life which is a Sikhi concept as I explained to him once because an atheist is anti deity like Sikhi. Athiests are at par with Sikhi with the Creative Energy.He admitted that he is a sikh in every sense of the world. His idea of meditation is self contemplation just like Gurbani teaches us. He is also anti Muslim very similar to the Talibanic mentality towards non Muslims.


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## chazSingh (Jul 25, 2015)

Bhagat ji...

Life is tough...

On one hand you have waheguru grabbing your dyaan during simran and pulling you deep within your inner being and making himself known to you...

...on the other hand you have the forum crew telling you that you are doing it all wrong and are just having a drug like experience...

Time to chose....


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## chazSingh (Jul 25, 2015)

If my simran is one big drug like experience...then my waheguru is one hell of a drug manufacturer/deeler

His drug allows me to detach momentarily from the Web I am caught in and allow me to recognise my creator...to see his light and to hear his sound...and to be enveloped in His warmth and loving embrace...

I love that drug...I am addicted to it....never free me from that drug...ever.

God bless.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 25, 2015)

has it ever occurred to either of you that addiction to anything is not a great idea?
Is it possible that the reason we are supposed to also be householders is so that we remain grounded?

I thought the following quite interesting

Someone who is addicted to God is using the concept as an escape from their own lives. The balance is off. Instead of seeking help, they dissolve into an idea that God is directing every thought and action in their lives. They want to be a puppet and destroy those very things that God values in independent human beings. One can admire and appreciate a doll, but just as we can only love a real person, God doesn’t ask us to be robots in his service, but real human beings. The damage comes in the same way it arrives with other addictions. God addicts sacrifice their relationships, jobs and families in what they believe is service to a higher power. But it’s just as toxic and out of balance as any addiction. And just like other addictions, the obvious problems only seem to have one answer for the addict – increase the dose. Ever more is required to get them into the fantasy life. The answer is more prayer, or reading the Bible more, or striving ever harder to get the satisfaction and release of their own version of an enlightened state.

I am not lauding the site or anything contained in it, however this article struck a chord with me, 

http://www.12step.com/articles/sober-living/addicted-god


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## Ishna (Jul 25, 2015)

BhagatSingh, I need to reply to you later as I have a lot of housework to do now.  Thank you for your thoughts.

Chazji, the experience you describe as a result of your meditation I feel quite often in the waking moments, deep in my heart, consciously.  The Creator is accessible in the here-and-now, imho.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 25, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> His drug allows me to detach momentarily from the Web I am caught in and allow me to recognise my creator...to see his light and to hear his sound...and to be enveloped in His warmth and loving embrace...



can someone from the meditation lobby please tell me what the end game is here ? more of the same? does the warmth and loving embrace increase? what is it that you are looking for or hope to achieve?


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 25, 2015)

A cuddly feeling with the self.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 25, 2015)

harry haller said:
			
		

> (bunch of questions)


Harry this one addresses some of the questions you were asking -


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## Ishna (Jul 25, 2015)

I can see the usefulness of meditation as an activity for the mind.  There is ample evidence, as BhagatSingh shared with the video.  If some people use it focus their mind on the Creator, and then _carry that in their heart while engaging with the world_ (which is simran, dhiaan, jap, etc.) then more power to them.

However, equating the practice of meditation with simran, dhiaan, jap, etc I think is a misnomer.  It doesn't match with the rest of Gurbani.  imho.

Anyway, I've got housework to do.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 25, 2015)

sorry, but this just all comes back to the self, me, me, me, its 6.49am here, its time for action, work, time to inject into Creation whatever you can, to give everything, not to the self, but back into the melting pot, I am going over the park opposite to pick up other peoples dogshit, enjoy your warmth and loving embrace!


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 25, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> Bhagat ji...
> Life is tough...
> On one hand you have waheguru grabbing your dyaan during simran and pulling you deep within your inner being and making himself known to you...
> ...on the other hand you have the forum crew telling you that you are doing it all wrong and are just having a drug like experience...
> Time to chose....


Lol this ^^^ exactly.

Waheguru or World? 
I think I'll go with Waheguru. Not because someone told me to. But because it has become self-evident through the practice of meditation.

And after I understood Waheguru, all the religious texts of the world started making sense to me.



chazSingh said:


> If my simran is one big drug like experience...then my waheguru is one hell of a drug manufacturer/deeler
> 
> His drug allows me to detach momentarily from the Web I am caught in and allow me to recognise my creator...to see his light and to hear his sound...and to be enveloped in His warmth and loving embrace...
> 
> ...


Yea if this could be made into a drug or app as Japji says, then I am sure it would have, a long long time ago. But unfortunately meditation is just another beast. 

Meditation (yog, simran) is training the mind to see Waheguru resonating deeply within you and through the world, all the time.

It's a simple but powerful method. ANYONE and I mean anyone can do this. No matter who they are, deaf, blind, mute, ill, old, young, me, you, they can do meditation.

The same cannot be said for other methods.


Anyways, last vid for tonight, this one is from Basics of Sikhi, teacher - Jugraj Singh.


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## BhagatSingh (Jul 25, 2015)

Ishna said:


> I can see the usefulness of meditation as an activity for the mind.  There is ample evidence, as BhagatSingh shared with the video.  If some people use it focus their mind on the Creator, and then _carry that in their heart while engaging with the world_ (which is simran, dhiaan, jap, etc.) then more power to them.
> 
> However, equating the practice of meditation with simran, dhiaan, jap, etc I think is a misnomer.  It doesn't match with the rest of Gurbani.  imho.
> 
> Anyway, I've got housework to do.


Lol Ishna you are like 99% there. The last 1% is just that yog (unitign with God), simran(remember), dhyan (single-minded concentration) and jap (chant) are all synonyms for meditation, as meditation is commonly used in Sikh circles. It is the primary method taught in Guru Granth Sahib. Hence why even in English translations they use the term meditation.

Anyways, enjoy your housework. Goodnight from my end.


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## chazSingh (Jul 25, 2015)

Harry ji...

I don't sleep for the rest of the day lol...

Picking up other people's dog shit....thats a great thing to do. Wish I was able to do that. Since I moved to solihull it's all I see...people not picking up their dogs mess..


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## Harry Haller (Jul 25, 2015)

actually, it is not something noble, I just have a thing about collecting dogshit


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 25, 2015)

BhagatSingh said:


> Lol this ^^^ exactly.
> 
> Waheguru or World?
> I think I'll go with Waheguru. Not because someone told me to. But because it has become self-evident through the practice of meditation.
> ...









If people believe in the rubbish that Jugraj Singh spits out in the name of Sikhi, then those people have no idea what Sikhi is all about which is disgraceful. They should look into Sikhi with the depth it requires rather than trying to swim in ankle deep waters.

They also perhaps may be the parrots of Gurbani and have memorised the key parts which they inhale deeper and hold their breath just to feel high for a moment or two.

Jugraj Singh claims that Sikhi believes in Hell, Heaven and reincarnation among other rubbish and also in derawalas whom he calls them Brahmgyanis that one must have in one's life.

I have interacted with him many a times and with others who used to believe in his nonsense and do not anymore. These kind of people like Jugraj Singh are the RSS kind who want to insert Hindutva in Sikhi as it has been done for centuries.

It is a shame when people come to know that Mann- Mind is mentioned 4992 times in the SGGS , our only Guru for some reason. Yet they ignore the pricelessness of this gem, are not interested in using the tools given to us in the SGGS to lasso our mind because they want to feel cuddly by being parrots with one ugly plumage.

This guy is fooling many as the derawalas do. It is a shame he is abusing Sikhi baana to advance his RSS Non-Sikhi agenda.

If some believe in Jugraj Singh's unSikhi stance, I would urge them to  be a Sikh as per Gurmat and come out of the closet and share their thoughts about what attracted them to this con man who is peddling Sikhi as some kind of snake oil.

Also to others, please share your thoughts.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh


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## chazSingh (Jul 25, 2015)

If you dislike basics of sikhi...you must hate mysimran.info 

Based on my own personal experience which I cannot and will no deny...I see no problem in what jugraj says... or the seva he does.

God bless.


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## Tejwant Singh (Jul 25, 2015)

chazSingh said:


> If you dislike basics of sikhi...you must hate mysimran.info
> 
> Based on my own personal experience which I cannot and will no deny...I see no problem in what jugraj says... or the seva he does.
> 
> God bless.



Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

First of all, please try to be honest about things. I never said I disliked Basics of Sikhi. That is your assumption from your own thought process. I just said what Jugraj believes in and how he misleads people about Sikhi. It is in the videos for you to check.

Lastly, thanks for admitting that you believe in Heaven, Hell and Reincarnation and Derawalas. All these  things are anti Sikhi. Finally, the truth has come out.

Thanks for being candor and honest about it.

Tejwant Singh


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## Original (Jul 25, 2015)

Ishna said:


> The Naam is not a word. I can't describe Naam in its entirety; it is that flavour that gets mentioned, that only the one who tastes it can know. From what I've experienced (very small tastes of what I think was Naam) Naam is the Sat Naam, the perfect Reality of the universe, the Oneness, the Truth that is there if the veil of illusion is peeled away.
> 
> We peel back the veil by contemplating the Shabad, reflecting on life experiences, following the Hukam, and constantly keeping the Oneness, Reality, Naam in mind (remembering, dhiaaee, simran). This leads us to be virtuous at all times, because it is all One, it is all Ik Onkar.
> 
> Loving the Naam, treasuring it in your heart and mind is the real meditation that Gurbani is talking about, I believe.



Ishna Ji

Let me assist with the little that I believe to be rationally plausible. Nam is an idea, a thought process of the ancient Civilisations. But before we pick up on Nam it is important from an intellectual investigation perspective to scan over the historical archives in order to reconstruct a reliable past of the people who coined the term "nam".

I'll reserve much of my own theoretical reasoning and leave you to ask yourself of the "race n sex" of the people of Punjab. It will be interesting to hear what your finds are, notably, the Indus Valley civilisation. This will help define and narrow down the authors of SGGSJ in terms of their race, sex, origin, culture, belief, etc. to fully reconstruct their past. 

Otherwise, what you've written above is beautiful and very much consistent with Sikh ideology.


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## Original (Jul 25, 2015)

Ishna said:


> I would always choose sitting down and reading and reflecting on Gurbani over sitting down and chanting one word. The lessons learned from the Guru open our mind to perceive the Naam. Everything else flows from here. The actual practice of meditation might be useful for easing anxiety and helping us to think more clearly, but I'm not convinced it's the gateway to Truth. The



Slowly but surely you will come to understand. Sikhi is alive n kicking all the time and is not something where you close your eyes or appease to please kind of attitude, no, not at all. Not until the penny drops will satnam reveal itself to you. And, that too from within. God will create all the right conditions without you knowing what's happening in your life and then, "WOW" - O' my God ! will be the only acknowledgement on your part. Your mind cannot fathom the unfathomable - trust me !


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## Original (Jul 25, 2015)

Lady n Gents

Let's sum it up !

Move away from everything and tell me, have you ever fallen in love, unconditionally, besotted beyond belief and all you thought, saw and the rest was the object of your love, that is, Mr Handsome in Ishna's case and Miss Beautiful in your boys case ? That is it - from there starts the journey ahead - introspection ! Call it contemplation, meditation, gurmat style, alien style, whatever, but is actually the doorway to the self [me'ism] which will lead you to the whole'ism [Ikonkar].

The me ego melts into the divine ego - *only* when your in *love. *Only when your in love are you out of time n space - think of the times when you were on a date - time stopped - when 2 hearts beat together it's an everlasting song - Gurbani is that song - you just need to tune-in right.

Goodnight n Godbless

PS - the *beauty* in all we do on SPN is that we're all buzzing around the "word" of Gur Ghar like a B around a flower - extracting nectar n pollinating flower. It's not the content but the connection that matters -

More another time - Ciao


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 26, 2015)

Tejwant Singh said:


> It is a shame when people come to know that Mann- Mind is mentioned 4992 times in the SGGS , our only Guru for some reason. Yet they ignore the pricelessness of this gem, are not interested in using the tools given to us in the SGGS to lasso our mind because they want to feel cuddly by being parrots with one ugly plumage.


Yes Tejwant Jee, I 100% agree with you. Contrary to the philosophy and belief of whole world, their prophets and sages, gurmat philosophy is unique in fixing the manh not by silencing but by merging the divine trait in it, 'manh jeetai jaghjeet'. Gurmat forcefully tells us, 'ਸਨਕਾਦਿਕ ਨਾਰਦ ਮੁਨਿ ਸੇਖਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਮਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਪੇਖਾ ॥੩॥ SGGS.1266. All these sages those who propagated to have meditated on his name for years were not able to trace the manh what to talk of conquering or meeting the God or or ਸਿਧ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਮੋਨਿ ਧਾਰੀ ਰਹੇ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਮਨੁ ਨ ਦਿਖਾਵਣਿਆ॥੭॥ - they continued meditated but were not able to see the manh.  p.124.3. 

And guru sahib advises, 'ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਚਲੁ ॥ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਸਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਤਾ ਸੁਖ ਲਹਹਿ ਮਹਲੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥  SGGS. 37-2 How is it possible, when we have not been able to conquer our manh and are thinking of conquering the world(of inner universe) ||3|| 

Therefore, while the world religions talk of opening of dasam duar, in the head, on the contrary gurbani tells us, if the door of manh is opened - ready to listen and descriminatary intellect is achieved, consider your dasam duar is opened. Similarly everyone talks of listening to fictitious chirping of anhaad naad and pretend to experience the God, gurmat says,  'ਨਾਨਕ ਸੇ ਅਖੜੀਆਂ ਬਿਅੰਨਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਡਿਸੰਦੋ ਮਾ ਪਿਰੀ॥੧॥ those who have experienced are exclusive, loving.Thus instead of focussing to listen chirping gurbani tells me, 'ਸੁਣਿ ਸਾਜਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਸੰਦੇਸਰਾ ਅਖੀ ਤਾਰ ਲਗੰਨਿ॥ instead of expecting to listen the fictitious chirping as naad, stay always tuned ਅਖੀ ਤਾਰ ਲਗੰਨਿ with message of divine love and selflessly connecting with truth.


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## Harry Haller (Jul 26, 2015)

Original said:


> Move away from everything and tell me, have you ever fallen in love, unconditionally, besotted beyond belief and all you thought, saw and the rest was the object of your love, that is, Mr Handsome in Ishna's case and Miss Beautiful in your boys case ?


 
yes, I have, it is not what I consider to be a natural state, I actually consider it a false state, a Romeo and Juliet state that has no meaning in the real world, because that love cannot exist in the real world, at some point the R and J state must give way to reality if it is to survive, I find Wuthering Heights to be a good example of this, how this fantastic love cannot actually co exist alongside the real world.



Original said:


> That is it - from there starts the journey ahead - introspection ! Call it contemplation, meditation, gurmat style, alien style, whatever, but is actually the doorway to the self [me'ism] which will lead you to the whole'ism [Ikonkar].


 
No, what it actually is, is the whole of you kidding yourself that you have found something special, something beautiful, and in that finding, you have found happiness. As is the way with happiness, you need and want more and more, and the state of complete submission seems like a truly wonderful idea, I actually think this is a good way to lose yourself, rather than find yourself. But then maybe losing yourself is part of the game plan,



Original said:


> The me ego melts into the divine ego - *only* when your in *love. *Only when your in love are you out of time n space - think of the times when you were on a date - time stopped - when 2 hearts beat together it's an everlasting song - Gurbani is that song - you just need to tune-in right.


 
Your an old romantic Originalji, your wife is a lucky lady, I used to be like you, full of love, full of what I thought was love, faith, hope, but then that is your entitlement and your right,

I made a twee comment above about dogshit, but the spirit of the statement stands, I pick up dogshit because I like dogshit, some meditate because they like meditating, each to his own


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## Ishna (Jul 26, 2015)

BhagatSingh Ji

Thank you again for the efforts you have gone to.

*#1*
~-~-~
*BhagatSingh said:* "Once you have tasted an apple, then when someone mentions apple or the qualities of apple then you can picture the apple in your mind. In fact, apple is so iconic, if I simply said "fruit" most people will think of the apple.

"Similarly, if you meditate or even just read other parts of Guru Granth Sahib, then you'll know that shabad, even in isolation when you are only presented the shabad by itself, is talking about the meditation process."

*Ishna said*: "This makes sense if you think the Gurbani is describing meditation. So far in my own studies, I do not think it is. To me, the Gurbani is talking about achieving an holistic state of mind and being that includes a deep, constant awareness of Ik Onkar which guides and influences our thoughts and actions."

*BhagatSingh said:* "Like I said before this is the XYZ, the end-goal. There are many steps before that.

"What I am really trying (hard) to put forth is the basics of Sikhi. The basic meaning - the ABC, the methodology by which we progress to the goalpost you out-lined."
~-~-~​
I have tried meditation, but I learned more through a sehaj paath than any amount of meditation.  The ABC, to my mind, is all contained in Guru Granth Sahib, and it really isn't complicated.  The Gurbani itself just re-iterates beautifully the process of removing separation and merging with the Creator.

It's like one of those optical illusion pictures.  I look and see a bird, you look and see a fish, and if we try we can see the other image.  Our minds will intuitively have a preference for one over the other.

So while you can try to explain to me that inward meditation is the ABCs of Sikhi until you're blue in the face, and I can try to explain to you that constant awareness is the ABCs of Sikhi until I'm blue in the face, we aren't going to agree, because we're seeing this from different angles.

*#2*
Regarding the shabad you explained in post number 125, found on Panna 183;

*BhagatSingh said: *"What does he give us? this tool - chant Ram - with the knowledge on how to use it - focus single-mindedly on it."​
Does that mean you chant "Ram" during your meditation?  Undoubtedly that instruction is found more often in Gurbani than to chant "Waheguru".

From what I understand, the chanting/meditating mentioned is about always retaining that awareness of Naam, which we learn about from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  It's about never forgetting it, and carrying it inside like a parent does their newborn baby.  The parent doesn't put their child out to play and then sit down and chant the child's name to keep them safe.  The parent goes about their business with one eye on the child at all times, an ear out for a strange noise or a cry, always glancing up to check, never forgetting their child is there.  The parent is virtually tethered to their child through their love.  This is the true chant and meditation.

Gurbani says on Panna 29 :
*ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਪ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮੀ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥*
_Gurmukẖ jap ṯap sanjmī har kai nām pi▫ār._
For the Gurmukh, the love of the Name of the Lord is chanting, deep meditation and self-discipline.

*ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਦਾ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥*
_Gurmukẖ saḏā ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai ek nām karṯār._
The Gurmukh meditates forever on the Name of the One Creator Lord.

*ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥੪॥੭॥੪੦॥*
_Nānak nām ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai sabẖnā jī▫ā kā āḏẖār. ||4||7||40||_
O Nanak, meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the Support of all beings. ||4||7||40||​
The whole shabad is available here.

This is a perfect example of the optical illusion effect.  One person can read the above and understand it to mean that one loves the Naam by chanting, deep meditation and self-discipline.  Another person can read the above and to them it means that loving the Naam is the equivalent of chanting, deep meditation and self-discipline.

This love of Naam can be achieved 24/7, day and night, constantly, while working and crying and partying.  From it, all virtue flows.  You can't actually sit and meditate/chant 24/7.  Panna 29 goes on to describe more.

*#3*
But hey, if some people gain awareness by sitting and meditating, good for them if they can progress to carrying love of Naam all the time.  Others may develop this love through reading, listening, learning, and living a virtuous life (which I'm sure meditators do, as well).  I happen to believe that the latter is what Gurbani encourages moreso than the former.

Perhaps this is the wonder of Gurbani, that it brings the variety of humankind to Naam no matter if they see the 'fish' or the 'bird' within its pages.


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## japjisahib04 (Jul 26, 2015)

Ishna said:


> But hey, if some people gain awareness by sitting and meditating, good for them if they can progress to carrying love of Naam all the time. Others may develop this love through reading, listening, learning, and living a virtuous life (which I'm sure meditators do, as well). I happen to believe that the latter is what Gurbani encourages moreso than the former.


 It all depend whether we interpret the gurbani literally or by going through the context of the sabd. The central idea of the sabd is, 'ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਜਗੁ ਦੁਖੀਆ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਸੁਖੁ ਲਹਹਿ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Oh my manh by following duality you make me suffer thus have mercy and come to the sanctuary of guru's guidance. SGGS.29.


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## Original (Jul 26, 2015)

Brother H - A very good morning ! Hope all is well at your end !

Credit where it's due - your good manners to address others with "G" at the end of their title speaks volumes - socially induced trait. Sign of good parenting and traditional respectable family value. But at times you let it slip when in armour, that is to say, "shut up" could be said, "pls b quite". Of course, between the two there is a degree of variation relevance to the intended conveyance. But overall your temperament should reflect the real Harry - which in my opinion is a guy who has beautiful social skills.

Attending to your text above, I think you've cracked it "......losing yourself to the game plan". Yes, Romeo n Juilet a tragedy depicts the "reality" which is not R n J [form] but are to loose themselves [physical identies] and culminate the form into formlessness is the "reality" - the "satnam" or call it what you will.

Gur Ghar has referred to itself as the "heer" [the beloved, Juilet] of the "ranjha" [ formless, Romeo].

Akal Purakh is in "*everyone*" - beauty of which is, it's diversity, which allows us to have a personal say on who, where, what, when and why AP [God] is.

Enjoy the Sunday -


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## Harry Haller (Jul 26, 2015)

Original said:


> Brother H - A very good morning ! Hope all is well at your end !
> 
> Credit where it's due - your good manners to address others with "G" at the end of their title speaks volumes - socially induced trait. Sign of good parenting and traditional respectable family value. But at times you let it slip when in armour, that is to say, "shut up" could be said, "pls b quite". Of course, between the two there is a degree of variation relevance to the intended conveyance. But overall your temperament should reflect the real Harry - which in my opinion is a guy who has beautiful social skills.
> 
> ...


 
Sorry, I have just realised I am actually arguing for your case rather than mine, obviously I realised you needed some help on your side 

If you could excuse me whilst I argue amongst myself for a while till I reply....


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## Original (Jul 26, 2015)

harry haller said:


> Sorry, I have just realised I am actually arguing for your case rather than mine, obviously I realised you needed some help on your side
> 
> If you could excuse me whilst I argue amongst myself for a while till I reply....



*Too good !*  could put yourself out as a hired hand, potential fee-earner for the struggling few.

Human history says that living in groups as *primates* meant we had to form and maintain alliances with other members of the group. The evolution of language had changed the rules of the game, enabling the exchange of ideas, complex communication fostered innovation and invention, leading to better tools, new ways to hunt and trap animals. But the gift of the gab for the few meant challenges along the way, that is, our ancestors had to discern who to trust with arguments before accepting and rejecting what they had to say; helping the group arrive at the best strategies for hunting and gathering food.

No H, - I don't have an axe to grind, but thanks all the same. SPN is the only social window I subscribe to through which I try n have *"my"* say of the "Sikh" I am and stay clear of argumrnts. I try n live up to my guru's ideals. The good, bad and ugly of social society don't trouble me - I know their status today, but also know their status wont always remain the same, evolution will kick-in and change them for better, just like it changed me, from manmukh to gurmukh. One day they'll be where I am today - the spiritual singh having a human fling.

Life and life's experiences are to be shared n enjoyed.

Over n Out


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## Harry Haller (Jul 26, 2015)

Ok, now I understand, its about love, chasing that feeling in your stomach, the feeling of ultimate closeness, of ultimate intimacy, of being at home, of belonging, of feeling secure, getting closer and closer until you feel you have actually merged with the supreme.

I will grant you it is a bit difficult doing that picking up dogshit, somehow, the speed of pickup, the smell, the fascination in seeing a particularly sloppy one, does not really transfer itself to a heightened level of closeness. I suppose merging with the supreme whilst picking up dogshit is also not going to be as easy as it would be at say 5am, in a nice clean warm room, in silence, with just the sound of breathing.

I personally believe Sikhism is an attitude of service, and that anything that stands between the service, and you, should be removed, otherwise is encourages me-ism and the feelings of the self,( I have enough problems in that area already) to be honest, this is the very reason I do not meditate, I know there is a chance I may loose myself deep within myself, and then what would all the dogshits do?.

If I did not pick up dogshit anymore, I would survive, could you say the same about meditation?


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## Original (Jul 26, 2015)

H - mediation definitely died a death on this forum here, no ?

My mediation was never a choice, but something that formed part of the discipline to which I assigned early in life. Over the years it had been engrained into my biological system [conditioned], if I don't do it I would feel abnormal, I guess. I cannot remember not doing it, my reasons for doing it were never spiritual, but more physical. I'm fully composed as a man to take on the good, bad n the ugly world that awaits me each day.

Have a read below, it's an interesting read, something that I identify with. The author is a marital arts practitioner, and I think in the last paragraph I see bit of you [the altruistic H].

_It took me many years to finally understand what I wanted out of meditation. What you get out of it is one of those things that you kind of have to figure out for yourself. When I discuss this with people who haven’t tried it, or did and gave up, the question is often “what is it supposed to do?”. The way I can best explain what meditation is to me, is that it allows me to set my brain to how it is supposed to be, to access the subliminal parts. Let me explain.

If you study the existence of a wild animal, what you see is life in its purest state. It is without contemplation, without stress. It runs, mostly, on instinct and pays little attention to the past or the future. It truly lives in the moment. This pure state, in my opinion, is how we, humans, once were, before we evolved language, consciousness and everything else that came along with it. We spend incredible amounts of energy, well, thinking. We are constantly thinking about yesterday and worrying about tomorrow. What this does is disrupt the natural flow of our natural mind. I believe that the purpose of life is to achieve a state of pure existence, which in essence, is an existence void of thought, or differently put, of a single thought.

I’ve been practicing meditation for many years, and it is by far the greatest challenge in my life, for the simple fact that I will never be able to perfect it, I will never reach a point where I can say that I am done with it and can now move on to something else. But none the less, there are levels that can be attained, and for me, one of the most important steps was understanding why, what was my reason for doing it.  
I knew what it was all about, because at that moment [an experience] I was no longer myself the person, I was part of everything around me. I was part of something big. For others, with other beliefs, they will probably describe this moment as being in the presence of God, or a god, or gods, or whatever belief system they choose to follow. But for me, this is what all those beliefs are based on, that sense of something greater, something that we all share and are all a part of.

A life of purely meditative existence is not something that I am interested in. I enjoy being human and many of the amazing gifts that  come along with it. But now, knowing what I know, believing what I believe, I have the ability to go back to being one whenever I choose. I have also discovered other ways of tapping into that reservoir within. When I spend time with animals, not as their master but as their equal, as their brother, I am able to see through their eyes, to be part of their existence. I feel it then. When I help other to improve their lives, perform selfless acts of kindness, I find myself in that moment, sharing their joy, and feeling that reservoir all around us. When I practice martial arts and truly immerse myself in the experience, I feel it then as well. And of course when I meditate, as I try to do every day, I know why I do it, it has a purpose, and having that purpose in my life is one of the greatest feelings one can ever achieve._


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## Harry Haller (Jul 26, 2015)

Original said:


> H - mediation definitely died a death on this forum here, no ?


 
Meditation never died a death here, this is not an anti meditation forum, it is an anti proselytizing forum.



Original said:


> My mediation was never a choice, but something that formed part of the discipline to which I assigned early in life.


 
yes, I guessed this



Original said:


> and I think in the last paragraph I see bit of you


 
me too!

maybe picking dogshit is also a form of meditation?


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## Original (Jul 26, 2015)

harry haller said:


> maybe picking dogshit is also a form of meditation?


common denominator in both is concerted effort !

Thank you for the Snday Roast !

Gnite


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