# Should One Always Tell The Truth?



## Harry Haller (Sep 19, 2016)

Should one always tell the truth, always, first we need to find a concrete scenario that we can use, we can keep picking holes till we find the genesis scenario, the scenario where it makes no sense telling the truth


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## Harry Haller (Sep 19, 2016)

ok, you have just found out your 10 year old child has incurable terminal cancer, when you get home, your child runs to you and asks how the tests went, at that point what do you say?


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## Harry Haller (Sep 19, 2016)

no that doesn't work either because there will always be someone that would tell the truth, hmmm


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## Harry Haller (Sep 19, 2016)

Im stumped, I can think of plenty scenarios where I would not tell the truth, but then that is because I would have something to hide, or done something wrong, the argument is if you live a decent life and are honest, you have nothing to lie about, out of interest, did any of our Gurus find themselves being economical with the truth, maybe in battle, or by way of battle tactics, I would have thought not, but I would be interested in any sakhis.


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## Harry Haller (Sep 19, 2016)

Harkiranji

Ok, this is my best shot, your on holiday in India, something akin to 1984 takes place, you end up with a dear friend in the boot, your driving away from the troubles, you get stopped by a Mob, they ask if you have seen any Sikhs or know where any are

What do you answer?


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## Sikhilove (Sep 19, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> Should one always tell the truth, always, first we need to find a concrete scenario that we can use, we can keep picking holes till we find the genesis scenario, the scenario where it makes no sense telling the truth



Speaking lies - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.


They see the Truth, and they speak the Truth; their bodies and minds are True.
(SGGS p69)


The One Lord is in his heart. True are his actions; true are his ways. True is his heart;
Truth is what he speaks with his mouth. True is his vision; true is his form. He distributes Truth and he spreads Truth.

One who recognizes the Supreme Lord God as True - O Nanak, that humble being is absorbed into the True One. (8,15)

(SGGS p283)


The true devotees look beautiful in the Darbaar of the Lord`s Court. They speak Truth, and only Truth.
Deep within the nucleus of their heart, is the True Word of the Lord`s Bani. Through the Truth, they understand themselves.

They understand themselves, and so know the True Lord, through their true intuition.

True is the Shabad, and True is its Glory; peace comes only from Truth.

Imbued with Truth, the devotees love the One Lord; they do not love any other.

O Nanak, he alone obtains the True Lord, who has such pre-ordained destiny written upon his forehead. (4,2,3)

(SGGS p769)


In Truth I sit and stand; I eat and speak the Truth.
With Truth in my consciousness, I gather the wealth of Truth, and drink in the sublime essence of Truth.

In the home of Truth, the True Lord protects me; I speak the Words of the Guru`s Teachings with love. (5)

(SGGS p1011)


True is the speech of the Gurmukh; true are the eyes of the Gurmukh. The Gurmukh practices and lives the Truth.
He speaks the Truth forever, day and night, and inspires others to speak the Truth. 

(SGGS p1058)
True are the faces and true are the beards, of those who speak the Truth and live the Truth.
The True Word of the Shabad abides in their minds; they are absorbed in the True Guru.

True is their capital, and true is their wealth; they are blessed with the ultimate status.

They hear the Truth, they believe in the Truth; they act and work in the Truth.

They are given a place in the Court of the True Lord; they are absorbed in the True Lord.

O Nanak, without the True Guru, the True Lord is not found. The self-willed manmukhs leave, wandering around lost. (53)


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## Harry Haller (Sep 19, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> They see the Truth, and they speak the Truth; their bodies and minds are True.
> (SGGS p69)
> 
> 
> ...



should this be taken literally, or is it an ideal to live by, whilst using common sense and wisdom?


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## Original (Sep 20, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> Im stumped, I can think of plenty scenarios where I would not tell the truth, but then that is because I would have something to hide, or done something wrong, the argument is if you live a decent life and are honest, you have nothing to lie about, out of interest, did any of our Gurus find themselves being economical with the truth, maybe in battle, or by way of battle tactics, I would have thought not, but I would be interested in any sakhis.


..an interesting read would be from the Mahabharata where Lord Krishna introduces the quibble as a plot device to save the pandus from defeat. An elephant named "Ashwathama" was killed and not the warrior Ashwathama. This provided the Pandus with a perfect ploy to bring the battle to a halt because othertwise, they would've been demolished. Lord Krishna sided with economical truth to save both the spirit and the letter of the rules of engagement in masterminding this strategic move.....to favour Pandu win.

Have a read.....scholars are for ever arguing given the status of Lord Krishna was God-incarnate.

Goodnight


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## Harkiran Kaur (Sep 20, 2016)

You really want to mess with the Universe? Simply say this statement:

"I always lie"

If you always lie then that statement is true, which means you always lie. But if you always lie then that statement is a lie because you just told the truth... but you can't be LOL


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Sep 20, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> Harkiranji
> 
> Ok, this is my best shot, your on holiday in India, something akin to 1984 takes place, you end up with a dear friend in the boot, your driving away from the troubles, you get stopped by a Mob, they ask if you have seen any Sikhs or know where any are
> 
> What do you answer?



No to both questions.



> *Truth is higher than everything;
> but higher still is truthful living. *
> SGGS p.62



We all know these words. I would classify the saving of an innocent life as "truthful living."


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## Harry Haller (Sep 21, 2016)

what is more important, the truth, or truthful living?


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## Original (Sep 21, 2016)

Good morning Everyone,

Philosophically speaking, what is truth would fall under the study of metaphysics and how ought humans to live, under ethics. A question worth considering would be, in my view, how might the two be reconciled or distilled for plausible explanations to justify their existence in the first place ?

Take for example the character of Job in the 'Book of Job' [Bible]. We're told of all the good, great and the wonderful things Job did to conform and remain God fearing, but yet he gets punished ? Where is the justice in truthful living and obeying God, asks poor ol'Job ? The wicked flourish and the just suffer, is that the divine retribution to which I must accord and believe ?

The book of Job reveals the defects of what I call "reality check". And, because of this, a different and more rationaly compatable theory had to be sought. Nanak did just that in Sikhism and his answer to Job was, "karmi appo apni" [reap n sow].

Let me leave you to chew on a more practical scenario to keep the mind engaged with philosophy.

Take 21st century Job. God fearing, law abiding and all the extras, fundamental of which is his belief that taking a life is "wrong" [murder] full stop. Consider the following -


Job n his girl friend are on holiday in Syria and gets captured by Isis. They are both taken to a secret hideout where another 20 hostages are being held captive. On arrival Job is given a pistol with one bullet and told to kill one of the hostages so the remaining 19 could be set free. What must Job do ?

More later - Ciao


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## chazSingh (Sep 21, 2016)

Original said:


> Job n his girl friend are on holiday in Syria and gets captured by Isis. They are both taken to a secret hideout where another 20 hostages are being held captive. On arrival Job is given a pistol with one bullet and told to kill one of the hostages so the remaking 19 could be set free. What must Job do ?
> 
> More later - Ciao



i think this depends on Jobs state of mind and his experience with the 'truth' of life...

for example if job i still "life is all there is, cling to life...save life...death is the end' kinda person...
then saving 9 lives, losing one...would probably make sense..
the majority survived...one didn't.....can bee seen a good...

can also be seen as wrong...especially if one is dabbling with the truth of life...Gods Will...hukam...
one must just do what they feel is right "follow the heart"....and accept the outcome...hukum...no matter what that is...in the khel of life...with the knowledge and experience that death is not the be all and end all..

Teraa kee-aa meethaa laagai.
O Waheguru! Your actions seem so sweet to me.
Har naam padaarath naanak maaNgai.
Nanak begs for the treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord.
Guru Ji followed his heart and knew this event needed to be played out in the khel of life...no resistence to it, as it was Gods Will...

question is how to follow ones heart...in my opinion a person can only act according to hukam\heart if their mind is free of clutter...the actions may not appear as truthful to the world...but it was what was ordained through the rule of sow\reap...

very complex...brain hurts thinking about it....maybe its because i shouldn't be using my brain to understand it...


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## Sikhilove (Sep 21, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> should this be taken literally, or is it an ideal to live by, whilst using common sense and wisdom?



Taken literally, gyan should be applied 100%


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## Harry Haller (Sep 21, 2016)

Original said:


> Job n his girl friend are on holiday in Syria and gets captured by Isis. They are both taken to a secret hideout where another 20 hostages are being held captive. On arrival Job is given a pistol with one bullet and told to kill one of the hostages so the remaking 19 could be set free. What must Job do ?



agree enthusiastically, and then shoot the terrorist!
 


Sikhilove said:


> Taken literally, gyan should be applied 100%


 are you saying we should take the SGGS literally then? or use wisdom, logic and discretion?


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## Original (Sep 21, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> agree enthusiastically, and then shoot the terrorist!


..taking the death toll to a record high - 22 ! WOW !! Waheguru is likely to transfer you over to the spiritualists camp for training the mind in rational thinking. Chaz managed to pull it off with just one dead !

Goodnight


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Sep 22, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> what is more important, the truth, or truthful living?


Since no one has answered this, let me repeat what Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev ji said..


> *Truth is higher than everything;
> but higher still is truthful living. *
> SGGS p.62



It can't be any clearer than that, I think. Truthful living is even above Truth. Your scenario is a great example of that.

.


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## Original (Sep 22, 2016)

Good evening Inderjeet Ji,



Inderjeet Kaur said:


> Since no one has answered this, let me repeat what Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev ji said..


I believe I did [#12], that is, they are two different aspects of the one concept -Truth !


Inderjeet Kaur said:


> It can't be any clearer than that, I think. Truthful living is even above Truth


..would you say knowledge of truth is a prerequisite to truthful living? And by your own admission, that saving lives is truthful living, what of a soldier who in the course his duty, take lives ?

Goodnight


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## Harry Haller (Sep 22, 2016)

Original said:


> ..taking the death toll to a record high - 22 ! WOW !! Waheguru is likely to transfer you over to the spiritualists camp for training the mind in rational thinking. Chaz managed to pull it off with just one dead !
> 
> Goodnight



i could have caught him alone!


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Sep 22, 2016)

Original said:


> Good evening Inderjeet Ji,
> 
> 
> I believe I did [#12], that is, they are two different aspects of the one concept -Truth !
> ...


Let me answer your statement about my "admission." You are misunderstanding what I said. I said  





> I would classify the saving of an innocent life as "truthful living."


A soldier operates under a different ethos than a private citizen saving a friend's life. The soldier's morality is very difficult. I have trouble with Sikh soldiers participating the wars of aggression currently being waged by the USA. The military is all voluntary; no one is forced to enlist against their will. I think that subject would demand a new thread, so I'll leave it there. 

Would I say knowledge of the truth is a prerequisite for truthful living? The simple answer is yes. Truthful living is a conscious choice, often difficult, an easy way to rationalize doing wrong things. One needs a strong grasp on truth to live like truthfully. And please note: most often truth and truthful living engender the same actions. Rarely do they clash.

The complicated answer is "how can I be sure what is truth"? This is a question asked since antiquity with no definitive answer. I believe in truth as taught by Gurus - all 11 of them - but belief is not fact and what if I'm wrong? Again, this is a huge topic that can't be answered in this thread. If you want to pursue this - personally, I don't - it belongs in a new topic or more likely continuing an old one.


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## swarn bains (Sep 22, 2016)

truthful living is extension of speaking truth. if you do not speak the truth, you cannot have a truthful living?


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Sep 22, 2016)

swarn bains said:


> truthful living is extension of speaking truth. if you do not speak the truth, you cannot have a truthful living?


As I have already stated, in different words, is that there are times when speaking the literal truth will result in a grave injustice. These occasions are few and far between, but they do occur.

I cannot fathom saying to a mob, "I cannot tell a lie. My dearest friend, who is a Sikh, is in the trunk/boot of my car." Of course, lying for a greater good is a dangerous, slippery slope to be used only in the most extreme cases.


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## Harry Haller (Sep 23, 2016)

*What are lies?*
_The dictionary says that to tell a lie is to purposely say something that is not true because you want to make the other people believe it; it is an attempt to deceive or mislead someone normally for a personal gain of some sort, however small.

A *lie* (also called prevarication, falsehood) is a type of deception in the form of an untruthful statement, especially with the intention to deceive others, often with the further intention to maintain a secret or reputation, protect someone's feelings or to avoid a punishment or repercussion for one's actions. To lie is to state something that one knows to be false or that one does not honestly believe to be true with the intention that a person will take it for the truth. A *liar* is a person who is lying, who has previously lied, or who tends by nature to lie repeatedly - even when not necessary.

Lying is typically used to refer to deceptions in oral or written communication. Other forms of deception, such as disguises or forgeries, are generally not considered lies, but their influence, according to Gurbani, is the same as the underlying intent and is in general the same as a lie. However, even a true statement can be used to deceive. In this situation, it is the intent of being overall untruthful rather than the truthfulness of any individual statement that is considered the lie._

The above is from Sikhiwikki, and quite frankly it makes no sense to me, neither do the puritans who insist that we all go round telling the truth and not deceiving people. 

Some points

1. When Guru Gobind SInghji made the pretence of chopping off the heads of the Panj, was that not a deception?
2. When Guru Gobind Singhji disguised himself as a pathan to avoid being caught was that not a lie?
3. Is dressing another so that they look like you to fool the enemy and make your escape not a lie?
4. Do not most military tactics not involve some sort of lying and deception?

It appears to me that the whole truth aspect of Sikhism has been reduced to very simple 'don't tell lies' whereas it is in fact much much bigger and so much more important than that, I would wager that any deception or lying in the name of truthful living is acceptable, but one needs the wisdom and discretion to be able to call it. Can you imagine a Sikh nation living on such principles? is it possible? 

Churchill once said that the truth was so precious, it needed a bodyguard of lies.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Sep 23, 2016)

Inderjeet Kaur said:


> I said
> A soldier operates under a different ethos than a private citizen saving a friend's life. The soldier's morality is very difficult. I have trouble with Sikh soldiers participating the wars of aggression currently being waged by the USA. The military is all voluntary; no one is forced to enlist against their will. I think that subject would demand a new thread, so I'll leave it there.



Perhaps I can shed a little light on this since I am in the military and Sikh. 

I joined the military for the opportunity to help people. In the case of first world countries, military is more in a defensive role, including the USA (though their judgement on that might be scrutinized) but nobody voluntarily joins the military to be on offensive attacks ever anywhere. Peacekeeping, helping in natural large scale disasters, and its all seen from defensive point of view. And yes, sometimes it can become an active fight where people die, and you have to follow orders. But, the way I look at it is that fighting against injustice and oppression is NOT a new thing for Sikhs! In fact, as Khalsa we are told to uphold justice and fight oppression, defending others and though killing someone is obviously not what we are aiming for, if it happens in a life or death situation to save someone else who is being attacked, oppressed etc then I think it falls into the spirt of Sikhi even though someone unfortunately was killed. Case in point, ISIS (ISIL) they are killing countless people in Syria, selling women as sex slaves and brutalizing them, they have destroyed most infrastructure, and sent countless thousands trying to flee for their lives. They are torturing people and killing them in horrific ways. I think that being involved in the military who are trying to stop these inhuman monsters, is well within the realm of truthful living and in Sikhi spirit of upholding justice and fighting tyranny. But yes, it involves people dying unfortunately. And though its not what anyone aims for, in this case it may be the only way to stop ISIS and save all those people. I am sure that Guru Gobind Singh Ji had wished that there were better ways to deal with attacking Mughals, but there was not, and even the 40 liberated died. I am sure Mai Bhago killed numerous attackers when she was injured....Guru Ji made her a body guard.


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Sep 23, 2016)

Harkiran Kaur said:


> Perhaps I can shed a little light on this since I am in the military and Sikh.
> 
> I joined the military for the opportunity to help people. In the case of first world countries, military is more in a defensive role, including the USA (though their judgement on that might be scrutinized) but nobody voluntarily joins the military to be on offensive attacks ever anywhere. Peacekeeping, helping in natural large scale disasters, and its all seen from defensive point of view. And yes, sometimes it can become an active fight where people die, and you have to follow orders. But, the way I look at it is that fighting against injustice and oppression is NOT a new thing for Sikhs! In fact, as Khalsa we are told to uphold justice and fight oppression, defending others and though killing someone is obviously not what we are aiming for, if it happens in a life or death situation to save someone else who is being attacked, oppressed etc then I think it falls into the spirt of Sikhi even though someone unfortunately was killed. Case in point, ISIS (ISIL) they are killing countless people in Syria, selling women as sex slaves and brutalizing them, they have destroyed most infrastructure, and sent countless thousands trying to flee for their lives. They are torturing people and killing them in horrific ways. I think that being involved in the military who are trying to stop these inhuman monsters, is well within the realm of truthful living and in Sikhi spirit of upholding justice and fighting tyranny. But yes, it involves people dying unfortunately. And though its not what anyone aims for, in this case it may be the only way to stop ISIS and save all those people. I am sure that Guru Gobind Singh Ji had wished that there were better ways to deal with attacking Mughals, but there was not, and even the 40 liberated died. I am sure Mai Bhago killed numerous attackers when she was injured....Guru Ji made her a body guard.


Harkiran Kaur ji,

My criticism of the military is addressed to the USA military. Any pretense that invading Afghanistan or Iraq was defensive is nothing more or less than a lie. I have never heard of Canada invading anybody and starting wars for no pressing reason. Canada has done a few bad things, but starting wars of aggression isn't amongst them.

Fighting tyrants and making war on injustice are time-honored Sikh values and I have no trouble with those. Of course, one should try to keep civilian casualties to a minimum.

Those I know who have joined the USA armed forces - none of them Sikhs - did so for one reason only, to get money for college. Patriotism had nothing to do with it. They all went to Iraq and/or Afghanistan and all came back messed up.


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## swarn bains (Sep 23, 2016)

inderjit je I am surprised that you are giving examples of military. being a sikh woman i believe you have not joined the military. The military code of conduct is based on truth. The political code of conduct is based on lies. One has to learn to lie to become a politician. No soldier fights against the enemy but they fight for their code of conduct and under the command of the politicians. so there got to be some lie involved. If u have any doubt about my message; Yes I am a fifteenth generation soldier starting from the battle of Chamkaur Soldiers who do not fight for and with their code of conduct are the ones who get messed up


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## Harry Haller (Sep 23, 2016)

When India went through partition, we had Masterji, the Muslims had Jinnah, JInnah was no saint, but he is probably completely responsible for what is now Pakistan. 

Maybe all the sardar jokes are not because we are simple, but because we are truthful.


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## Original (Sep 23, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> I would wager that any deception or lying in the name of truthful living is acceptable,


.....would you really? that would mean, you'd  accept Jo blogs lie on a cv  [morally wrong] to secure a job to feed his/her family [morally right]. Would that be the correct interpretation of what you are saying Sir ?


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Sep 23, 2016)

swarn bains said:


> inderjit je I am surprised that you are giving examples of military. being a sikh woman i believe you have not joined the military. The military code of conduct is based on truth. The political code of conduct is based on lies. One has to learn to lie to become a politician. No soldier fights against the enemy but they fight for their code of conduct and under the command of the politicians. so there got to be some lie involved. If u have any doubt about my message; Yes I am a fifteenth generation soldier starting from the battle of Chamkaur Soldiers who do not fight for and with their code of conduct are the ones who get messed up


I am not talking about "the military," per se. I have no problem whatsoever about military power defending its homeland or the countries of its allies, when called upon to do. Hence, while I was none to pleased with Operation Desert Storm, I didn't oppose the USA's involvement. Kuwait was an ally the USA had sworn to protect. Likewise, I do not object to making war when it is to destroy a barbaric force such ISIS. They should go in, get the job done, and leave as soon as possible. 

I am talking about a very specific military in a very specific situation. An important fact is that this is an all-volunteer force. Every soldier enlisting knows that he or she will be joining an aggressor military that is at war with a country that was illegally invaded(Afghanistan) and had before invaded and effectively destroyed another country (Iraq).  A case could be made that the USA invaded Afghanistan to destroy the Taliban, a tyrannical force that the USA itself had created. The Taliban were swiftly defeated; the USA military is still there 14 years later. I think it was clear to every thinking person that the Taliban cannot be defeated and stay defeated by any conventional warfare. I have heard that the USA military invading Iraq expected to be hailed as liberators. When they were not, they should have been given orders to leave, and gone home. The tactics and strategy of the military are not in the hands of the soldier; choosing to join in the first place is.

I will back off a bit and concede that the situation is different for medical personnel; wounded soldiers do need the best of medical care, whether the war is just or unjust, legal or illegal. I realize I have strayed a bit from the topic, but I feel the need to clarify that I am not anti-military; I am just anti-aggressor.


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## Harry Haller (Sep 24, 2016)

Original said:


> .....would you really? that would mean, you'd accept Jo blogs lie on a cv [morally wrong] to secure a job to feed his/her family [morally right]. Would that be the correct interpretation of what you are saying Sir ?



why not, most people accept that CV's are full of lies just to advance ones career, to feed ones family surely is even more noble. 

How does this differ from your hostage scenario? a morally wrong action to achieve a morally right result.


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## Sikhilove (Sep 24, 2016)

Inderjeet Kaur said:


> As I have already stated, in different words, is that there are times when speaking the literal truth will result in a grave injustice. These occasions are few and far between, but they do occur.
> 
> I cannot fathom saying to a mob, "I cannot tell a lie. My dearest friend, who is a Sikh, is in the trunk/boot of my car." Of course, lying for a greater good is a dangerous, slippery slope to be used only in the most extreme cases.



Did no one read the lines from Gurbani I posted earlier. 

Anyone here who has taken Amrit or claims to follow the Guru, your Guru has specifically told u not to lie in Gurbani, so why do you still think that lying is okay.

The mayadhari thinks his way is right, the Gurmukhi surrenders at the feet of his Guru.
 


Harry Haller said:


> *What are lies?*
> _The dictionary says that to tell a lie is to purposely say something that is not true because you want to make the other people believe it; it is an attempt to deceive or mislead someone normally for a personal gain of some sort, however small.
> 
> A *lie* (also called prevarication, falsehood) is a type of deception in the form of an untruthful statement, especially with the intention to deceive others, often with the further intention to maintain a secret or reputation, protect someone's feelings or to avoid a punishment or repercussion for one's actions. To lie is to state something that one knows to be false or that one does not honestly believe to be true with the intention that a person will take it for the truth. A *liar* is a person who is lying, who has previously lied, or who tends by nature to lie repeatedly - even when not necessary.
> ...



Guru Gobind Singh Ji was so highly spiritually advanced that more or less his his every action was to glorify God.

So when he did the above, it was in His name. 

But for us mere Bhagats, He, through our Gurus has told us not to lie.

If we don't bow down to the Gyan of Gurbani and accept and apply it, then we run with maya.

The Gurus were not mortals- God spoke through them. When they spoke it was Truth speaking.


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## Harry Haller (Sep 24, 2016)

Sikhilove said:


> Guru Gobind Singh Ji was so highly spiritually advanced that more or less his his every action was to glorify God.
> 
> So when he did the above, it was in His name.
> 
> ...



that does not make sense, if the tenth master used certain tactics in battle that could not be used by his Generals, then Sikhism is reduced to do as I say, not as I do, which does not pass my own particular litmus test
 


Sikhilove said:


> Anyone here who has taken Amrit or claims to follow the Guru, your Guru has specifically told u not to lie in Gurbani, so why do you still think that lying is okay.



but that is your personal interpretation of Gurbani, perhaps you could supply some quotes so that we can debate them.


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## Sikhilove (Sep 26, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> that does not make sense, if the tenth master used certain tactics in battle that could not be used by his Generals, then Sikhism is reduced to do as I say, not as I do, which does not pass my own particular litmus test
> 
> 
> but that is your personal interpretation of Gurbani, perhaps you could supply some quotes so that we can debate them.




Hi

Your own particular litmus test doesn't matter in this case. A Satguru who is beyond the mortal state and cannot fall as our Gurus were, isn't answerable to you or I, He blessed them to be the most beautiful souls he has yet created. 

God knows why our Gurus actions were that way because God himself worked through Him and our Guru knew it, if God gave him a hukam and he followed it then good. 

Our Gurus proved time and time again their full dedication to Truth, they lived for Truth. 

The quotes I provided in my previous post should suffice, we are told many times not to lie.


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (Sep 26, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> Should one always tell the truth, always, first we need to find a concrete scenario that we can use, we can keep picking holes till we find the genesis scenario, the scenario where it makes no sense telling the truth


One must stick to truth. In some cases there may be some problematic response but one must learn to bear this. Finality of Truth is always positive.


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## Original (Sep 27, 2016)

Sikhilove,
I agree with much of what you write, but there are instances where you become persistent and overbearing; like now for example, on this truth and thing.

Generally speaking, we should always speak the truth, but there may be times when we are morally obliged to lie. Classic example of which I cited in another thread, the maniac neighbour wanting to kill your dad and how might you deal with it [ring a bell ?]. Now, if you were to tell the truth and inform the whereabout of your father, jo public would've cried out "murder", hence consider you highly immoral to have had your dad killed simply because one ought to tell the truth. Telling the truth is indeed virtuous and an obligation which one should uphold provided no other overriding factors are present.

Gdnite -


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (Sep 27, 2016)

Two points raised about Guru Gobind Singh are devoid of facts


Harry Haller said:


> *What are lies?*
> _The dictionary says that to tell a lie is to purposely say something that is not true because you want to make the other people believe it; it is an attempt to deceive or mislead someone normally for a personal gain of some sort, however small.
> 
> A *lie* (also called prevarication, falsehood) is a type of deception in the form of an untruthful statement, especially with the intention to deceive others, often with the further intention to maintain a secret or reputation, protect someone's feelings or to avoid a punishment or repercussion for one's actions. To lie is to state something that one knows to be false or that one does not honestly believe to be true with the intention that a person will take it for the truth. A *liar* is a person who is lying, who has previously lied, or who tends by nature to lie repeatedly - even when not necessary.
> ...






1. When Guru Gobind SInghji made the pretence of chopping off the heads of the Panj, was that not a deception?
2. When Guru Gobind Singhji disguised himself as a pathan to avoid being caught was that not a lie?
3. Is dressing another so that they look like you to fool the enemy and make your escape not a lie?
4. Do not most military tactics not involve some sort of lying and deception?

It appears to me that the whole truth aspect of Sikhism has been reduced to very simple 'don't tell lies' whereas it is in fact much much bigger and so much more important than that, I would wager that any deception or lying in the name of truthful living is acceptable, but one needs the wisdom and discretion to be able to call it. Can you imagine a Sikh nation living on such principles? is it possible?

Churchill once said that the truth was so precious, it needed a bodyguard of lies.[/QUOTE]

Two points raised are not based on facts
1. 'the pretence of chopping off the heads of the Panj', Is there any evidence that it was a pretence?
2. Guru Nanak  was accepted as  'Uch da peer' by the 'Uch da peer' himself and called him to be so. Guru Gobind Singh only carried forward the same acceptance of Gurus as 'Uch da Peer' . It was not Guru Gobind Singh who himself called him Uch da Pir; it was Ghani khan who said so.


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## Harry Haller (Sep 28, 2016)

dalvindersingh grewal said:


> 1. 'the pretence of chopping off the heads of the Panj', Is there any evidence that it was a pretence?



Your suggesting that he did actually cut their heads off?


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## swarn bains (Sep 28, 2016)

Aurangzeb had sent a convert muslim to observe what guru was doing. He was present at Anandpur sahib and he wrote that kafraan de peer ne sir katte. this document is available in university of Aligarh. so go and check it out


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Sep 28, 2016)

swarn bains said:


> Aurangzeb had sent a convert muslim to observe what guru was doing. He was present at Anandpur sahib and he wrote that kafraan de peer ne sir katte. this document is available in university of Aligarh. so go and check it out


swarn bains ji, It would be most helpful if you'd translate what the Muslim convert said into English.
Thank you.


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## swarn bains (Sep 28, 2016)

The convert was a brahmin converted to islam. He wrote that guru Gobind singh cut the heads of five people in his report to the king and the document is available at Aligarh


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## chazSingh (Sep 28, 2016)

Truthful living or living in truth is not just a matter of telling the truth....it is living in this world whilst knowing the 'truth' of this world...

if one is immersed in a computer game where they become one with it...and think the game is reality...then the game is played in a certain way...the character is attached to other characters...the character doesn't want to lose it's life...etc etc etc...

If you know the Truth...that its a game...that you are way more than just that character that was in the game...you will play that game in a different way...you may not care too much about collecting all the items available...or holding onto your life by all means..etc etc...

you would be living in truth....because you know the truth, you have experienced life outside of the game...you know there is life outside the game...


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## Sikhilove (Sep 28, 2016)

chazSingh said:


> Truthful living or living in truth is not just a matter of telling the truth....it is living in this world whilst knowing the 'truth' of this world...
> 
> if one is immersed in a computer game where they become one with it...and think the game is reality...then the game is played in a certain way...the character is attached to other characters...the character doesn't want to lose it's life...etc etc etc...
> 
> ...



Good post 

We're meant to embrace and enjoy life in this khel, in the here and now. At the same time were meant to live the laws of nirboah and nivair and the tenants of Truth.

The residents of earth during the Satyug had it right, they lived truthfully. 

This is now a blessing of a time to be alive on earth as the Kalyug ensures that when we detach in truth detachment, we are able to detach all out with an even greater light.

Only a few stars are needed to light up the sky, to teach others out of the bullshit that 99 percent of the world residents are engrossed in, currently for the overwhelmingly most part, it's the blind leading the blind.
 


Original said:


> Sikhilove,
> I agree with much of what you write, but there are instances where you become persistent and overbearing; like now for example, on this truth and thing.
> 
> Generally speaking, we should always speak the truth, but there may be times when we are morally obliged to lie. Classic example of which I cited in another thread, the maniac neighbour wanting to kill your dad and how might you deal with it [ring a bell ?]. Now, if you were to tell the truth and inform the whereabout of your father, jo public would've cried out "murder", hence consider you highly immoral to have had your dad killed simply because one ought to tell the truth. Telling the truth is indeed virtuous and an obligation which one should uphold provided no other overriding factors are present.
> ...



Hi 

I just copy and pasted quotes from Gurbani, which is truth.


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## Harkiran Kaur (Sep 29, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> Your suggesting that he did actually cut their heads off?



That's the biggest mystery! We will never know will we?   but in the end it doesn't matter. The symbolism is apparent either way. That of death and rebirth, and this symbolism used in initiation is not seen in only Sikhi, but in many different spiritual paths!


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## Pathfinder (Oct 4, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> Should one always tell the truth, always, first we need to find a concrete scenario that we can use, we can keep picking holes till we find the genesis scenario, the scenario where it makes no sense telling the truth





Harry ji,

Just the other day I was watching a movie, 'the invention of lying'. Then it just struck me. It is just the mortal clan that uses this and we use it to justify our insecurities, greed, fear , glorification etc. 

The truth always existed....period.

.. it's just the lies that we invented for our own need.. to add to our already long, tragic list of frailties.

We justify these lies with noble intentions to convince othes and ourselves that we did right. 

Regarding scenarios, we are humans remember... we can justify anything.
You can convince me that the glass is half empty and an hour or so later that it is half full. 

We have endless scenarios of Sikh Martyrs to inspire us on the upholding of the truth. 

Say we find the 'genesis scenario' then what. Do we justify or glorify the need to lie?, using the example. I doubt it bodes well for 'seekers of truth'. 

We pilfer, bleed every gift of Wahegueu's to us - even earth and nature,  then join the sangat to pray the truth that earth, nature is a mother to us. How much hypocrisy runs in our blood. NOT ALL but Most of us anyway - at least myself, that I can shamefully admit.

Why is a lie ever and even an option or a nessesary lie a quest? .  We are not short on inspiration from our Guru ji's to our endless list of Martyrs.  

I once had a similar debate on board the vessel with a scientist Greg. He stated that lying was a disease, was an addiction. He said he treated both of his quits similarly. Just quit for the next 5 minutes. Then another five and so on.

Slowly we can try to remain lie free for an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year like quitters quit smoking. Not one puff ever is a smoking quitters mantra. Not one lie ever should be for lies. No matter how strong the urge or the justification to lie, you Don't have an option, remember. Slowly he stated -truth becomes a habit. I was dumbfounded. Isn't that so simple and straight forward. 

Once we rise above the lies and embrace a truthful existence then we will worry about the next step. Truth and lies cannot coexist. 

Like there is no imperfect truth, there is no nessesary lie. Imperfect truth if such a thing does exist - it is nothing but a lie. Truth is simply the truth. 

I just feel a emptiness, an vacuum - in my soul - each time I used one of the endless 'unavoidable lies' and I ignored Wahegueu's warning and went ahead as I felt it was 'nessesary'. Today I look back and don't see a  proud sailor taking those desicions. I see a bloated, egoistic, lost, sorry figure attempting to play king who was smart in twisting the lies. I feel sorry, ashamed for falling into the trap of 'nessesary lies'. It's a bit too late though. I am just glad that I have been given a second chance.

Just my two cents (must learn to post smaller replies i realise, lol).

I must admit... I steal a lot of inspirations from your threads/posts out on the forum.

WGJDK, WGJDF.


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## swarn bains (Oct 4, 2016)

well done. hearty congratulations


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## Harry Haller (Oct 4, 2016)

Pathfinder said:


> Just the other day I was watching a movie, 'the invention of lying'. Then it just struck me. It is just the mortal clan that uses this and we use it to justify our insecurities, greed, fear , glorification etc.



Not all lies stem from the above, living in truth means just that, and when one has found the truth, one should keep it to oneself, life becomes a dance to the truth, mere words are insignificant, it is actions and consequences that are important, thus when in a bad situation where a tactical advantage can me made than the supreme truth, and the consequences need to be considered before the conceptual sin of the spoken word is considered, could the truth be so far away from a simple spoken word that it has to take into account circumstances and the moment. Does a man watching his wife of leprosy still reply that she is still beautiful? that watching her fade away is more painful than death itself, where is the truth then? what form does it take? is it simple enough to transfer to the spoken word? Is living truthfully the same as not lying?



Pathfinder said:


> Say we find the 'genesis scenario' then what. Do we justify or glorify the need to lie?, using the example. I doubt it bodes well for 'seekers of truth'.



I personally think that seeking the truth has little to do with words, I am not suggesting that we live a life of lies, although in essence we do, what I am saying is that lying in itself has little to do with whether one lives in truth.



Pathfinder said:


> Why is a lie ever and even an option or a nessesary lie a quest? . We are not short on inspiration from our Guru ji's to our endless list of Martyrs.



I have raised this point before, some of our Gurus were battle tacticians, do you think that any subterfuge was never given to our enemies? If you could explain that I would be grateful, as it would help my own understanding.



Pathfinder said:


> I once had a similar debate on board the vessel with a scientist Greg. He stated that lying was a disease, was an addiction. He said he treated both of his quits similarly. Just quit for the next 5 minutes. Then another five and so on.



constant lying is a bad thing, that is not what I am talking about, on the whole, I speak the truth, sometimes I am optimistic, and yes, sometimes I do lie, however, if I am going to lie, I make sure the person knows I am lying, like, for instance, telling a new partner how many women were before, a nervous laugh, a long pause, a long errrrrrr and then errrrr 2. Logic and discretion and the search for the truth, and doing everything in the name of the truth, to me are cornerstones of Sikhism.



Pathfinder said:


> Slowly we can try to remain lie free for an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year like quitters quit smoking. Not one puff ever is a smoking quitters mantra. Not one lie ever should be for lies. No matter how strong the urge or the justification to lie, you Don't have an option, remember. Slowly he stated -truth becomes a habit. I was dumbfounded. Isn't that so simple and straight forward.



I spend most of my time in that state, in my past, I spent 24/7 in that state, for some time, it nearly destroyed me, it made me realise no one likes the truth, and a true state can only be had with others of a similar disposition. Does a rapist deserve the truth in the action of rape? or a thief? or a murderer?

_The inevitable happened at Chamkaur. The Mughal army still thought that the Guru was alive and was in the fortress, and that his escape, during the night, was only a hoax. They, therefore, decided to attack the fortress all at once. There were only five Sikhs and after a short and fierce battle all of them were killed. As the Mughal commanders entered the fortress they found the Kalghi of the Guru and thought that they had killed him. So they took the head with the Kalghi to the Governor of Sirhind. But it was not the Guru's head. It was Bhai Sant Singh who wore the Kalghi and he resembled the Guru.
_



_By now the Guru had passed safely through the enemy's territory and reached the forest of Machhiwara. The Mughal armies were searching for him all over the forest. It was at this difficult consent that two Muslim friends, Ghani Khan and Nabi Khan disguised the Guru as "Uchh Da Pir" (a reputed Muslim saint of Uchh village) and carried him reverently in a curtained plantain to safety. After four week's journey the Guru finally reached Raikot in Ludhiana District. Rai Kalha, the Chief of Jagraon and Raikot received the Guru warmly. The Guru stayed there for some time. For Rai Kalha's services the Guru gave him a Jug and a sword which his family have kept all through these centuries. (In 1947 Rai Kalha's family went away to Pakistan and took the souvenirs with them)
_
This story was copied from Gurmat.info, I do not know the site, it is the story I interested in, which is , as I am sure you will agree quite a common one. Was our Guruji more interested in truthful living or the truth per se?



Pathfinder said:


> Once we rise above the lies and embrace a truthful existence then we will worry about the next step.



then you can not operate in today's society, it would only work on a desert island or if you had solitude, or if the people around you had also risen.



Pathfinder said:


> Like there is no imperfect truth, there is no nessesary lie. Imperfect truth if such a thing does exist - it is nothing but a lie. Truth is simply the truth.



How does that statement reflect the above story?



Pathfinder said:


> I must admit... I steal a lot of inspirations from your threads/posts out on the forum.



I am humbled and honoured, you have a gift of writing, the way you use your marine experience to mirror life, and the way it is written brings back fond memories of 'zen and the art of motorcycling maintenance'


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## Pathfinder (Oct 4, 2016)

Harry ji,

At sea, all I have known is dictatorship. Democracy at sea is the surest and fastest way to sink a ship. Taking orders without question comes naturally to us sailors. To us, the Master or the Captain is all knowing, the one who puts self between harm and his crew/vessel. He knows and does best for his crew. Having lived in such a conditioned atmosphere for 24 years faith in Waheguru Ji is easy to sustain for us sailors.

: I don't know how to quote selected parts of your message so I'll just try answering in order. I shall copy your questions.

Does a man watching his wife of leprosy still reply that she is still beautiful? that watching her fade away is more painful than death itself, where is the truth then? what form does it take? is it simple enough to transfer to the spoken word?

- A woman only grows more beautiful the more one loves her. If beauty is not just skin deep and she is truly loved then damn leprosy or cancer, nothing can stop the beauty radiating within her from growing. 

Is living truthfully the same as not lying?

- Not lying is an effort, the voyage.
Living truthfully is a way of life, the cumilation of the above.

what I am saying is that lying in itself has little to do with whether one lives in truth.

-Truth and lies are like dark and light. Both cannot coexist together.

- If the Guru ji used any subterfuge it doesn't change anything as far as I am concerned. The Guru ji did a million other things that I cannot ever do and so this is just one of them. The Guru ji sacrificed his sons, his family too. Can I do that? No, so there is no way I will even dwell on that.


then you can not operate in today's society, it would only work on a desert island or if you had solitude, or if the people around you had also risen.

- Trust me, I know how difficult it is to stand out in a crowd. Sikhi is not easy,but then no one said it is too. Yes, I am feeling isolated already. And I am still not an Amritdhari too. Believe me freinds avoid me like I have the plague.

How does that statement reflect the above story?
-  I have no counter, he is my Master and I am his crew. He knows best. I have never questioned any Captain nor have I been questioned as a Captain. Some mysteries are better left unsolved.

A sailor has very few questions. You are the opposite of me and I like that. I hardly question things. You dig deep and yes, I love your approach. Meticulous, inquisitive, seeking the details. At sea you would have scared me seriously - with your hunger to probe for details. But here, it's refreshing and informative.

'zen and the art of motorcycling maintenance'

- I swear I would rant about bikes endlessly if this were any other forum. You are the nth person to quote this book. Riders swear by this. I have yet to read it unfortunately. 

Oh yes, I hate cars. Why, because they are everything opposite of what a bike is. One must not feel the imperfections on the road. The temperature inside the car must remain static always, to hell with the weather outside. Feel the rain, sacrilege, close the moon roof. Hey Joe, we built an auto gear shifter for you too. Power this power that. Flick this switch. Remote access, omg, the lengths car makers go to make you feel you are doing anything but commuting is sickening. Massage seats, power windows, cruise control,  power locks, sunroof, etc etc.. it's pathetic honestly.

Hop onto a bike. Kick start the monster. You can feel the piston rods knock under you. You are one with the bike now. The throttle is like an extension of your very being. Your wrist controls the fury of the beast. You can smell the love in the exhaust. 

omg, buried bikers don't die, do they..lol.

Take care Harry ji


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## Dalvinder Singh Grewal (Oct 4, 2016)

Harry Haller said:


> Your suggesting that he did actually cut their heads off?


I am only suggesting that without evidence you cannot say whether such incidence occurred or not. You cannot call it pretence till you have evidence to say so.


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## Harry Haller (Oct 7, 2016)

dalvindersingh grewal said:


> I am only suggesting that without evidence you cannot say whether such incidence occurred or not. You cannot call it pretence till you have evidence to say so.



Well I suppose we should start with miracles, do you believe in them? do you believe that our Gurus were capable of miracles?
 


Pathfinder said:


> At sea, all I have known is dictatorship.



Maybe that would have been good for me, I have been free most of my life, free to make some pretty bad mistakes, and cause quite a lot of pain for myself and others around me. 



Pathfinder said:


> Democracy at sea is the surest and fastest way to sink a ship. Taking orders without question comes naturally to us sailors. To us, the Master or the Captain is all knowing, the one who puts self between harm and his crew/vessel. He knows and does best for his crew. Having lived in such a conditioned atmosphere for 24 years faith in Waheguru Ji is easy to sustain for us sailors.



We differ slightly on our outlook on Waheguruji, I have no faith whatsoever in such, the only faith I have is that Waheguruji will be constant. I ask nothing, I try and do instead. For me, it is a simple case that you have the basic skills to survive, here are the rules, off you go. I have faith in myself in being able to walk a path that is guided by Waheguruji, nothing more. That guidance comes through acting as per the  SGGS, rather than candles, full moons, meditation, prayer or even faith. Is faith coming to a crisis and knowing you will be ok because of Waheguruji? You will have to define faith for me. 



Pathfinder said:


> : I don't know how to quote selected parts of your message so I'll just try answering in order. I shall copy your questions.



Its very easy, outline the part of text you wish to reply to, you should then see a quote tab, click on it and the text will appear in your window with quote marks round it, reply underneath. 



Pathfinder said:


> - A woman only grows more beautiful the more one loves her. If beauty is not just skin deep and she is truly loved then damn leprosy or cancer, nothing can stop the beauty radiating within her from growing.



I admire your outlook, but the truth is that no man escapes from life into this state completely, there is always doubt, anger, frustration, there will always be hard times, impossible times, always times when the question, 'Do I still look beautiful?' cannot be answered truthfully, for we are everything, not just the pure. 



Pathfinder said:


> Not lying is an effort, the voyage.
> Living truthfully is a way of life, the cumilation of the above.



so by not lying, does truthful living come naturally?



Pathfinder said:


> Trust me, I know how difficult it is to stand out in a crowd. Sikhi is not easy,but then no one said it is too. Yes, I am feeling isolated already. And I am still not an Amritdhari too. Believe me freinds avoid me like I have the plague.



Why do your friends avoid you? because you tell the truth?



Pathfinder said:


> I have no counter, he is my Master and I am his crew. He knows best. I have never questioned any Captain nor have I been questioned as a Captain. Some mysteries are better left unsolved.



I disagree, given that events happened many many years ago, all we have is the litmus test, the very foundations of Sikhism mean that in my mind, one has to assume the Gurus set an example to us by their actions, they did not strike me as 'do as I say, not as I do' type people. I don't like mysteries, my background is computers, things have to be logical, things have to add up. A man who lauds equal sexuality, is unlikely to write about the complete opposite, A man who lauds truthful living by way of complete and utter honesty to all, is unlikely to wish to deceive even his enemies, so I must accept that there is more to truthful living than just telling the truth. 



Pathfinder said:


> A sailor has very few questions. You are the opposite of me and I like that. I hardly question things. You dig deep and yes, I love your approach. Meticulous, inquisitive, seeking the details. At sea you would have scared me seriously - with your hunger to probe for details. But here, it's refreshing and informative.



I scare people seriously outside of Sea, I question everything, yes, and I will tell you what is the inspiration behind that, the very first Amar Chittra Katha I read about Guru Nanakji, I loved it, why do we do this? why do we do that? Why do I have to wear this, or say that? He was my kind of guy, thank you for your kind compliments. 



Pathfinder said:


> I swear I would rant about bikes endlessly if this were any other forum. You are the nth person to quote this book. Riders swear by this. I have yet to read it unfortunately.



Read it, you will love it, really, its your sort of book, and your writing is very similar to Pirsig's.



Pathfinder said:


> Oh yes, I hate cars. Why, because they are everything opposite of what a bike is. One must not feel the imperfections on the road. The temperature inside the car must remain static always, to hell with the weather outside. Feel the rain, sacrilege, close the moon roof. Hey Joe, we built an auto gear shifter for you too. Power this power that. Flick this switch. Remote access, omg, the lengths car makers go to make you feel you are doing anything but commuting is sickening. Massage seats, power windows, cruise control, power locks, sunroof, etc etc.. it's pathetic honestly.



I have always loved cars, but that was cars 20 years ago, when they had character, when they smelt and looked like a car, a MK1 Range Rover, or a 1979 450SE, I have some great memories of cars, but today, with speed cameras, speed limits, and the congestion on the roads, its not quite the same, I have very vivid memories of driving a young lady to paris for the weekend in an old XJ6, in those days you could drive round Paris, park where you wanted, right next to the tower, and then break all speed records driving back to London. Makes me feel old thinking about it!



Pathfinder said:


> Hop onto a bike. Kick start the monster. You can feel the piston rods knock under you. You are one with the bike now. The throttle is like an extension of your very being. Your wrist controls the fury of the beast. You can smell the love in the exhaust.



I am just sorting out my licence as we speak , I did try and get fitted for leathers yesterday, but I ended up looking like a fat Batman...


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## Pathfinder (Oct 8, 2016)

Harry ji, 
For the quote post procedure,  thank you.



Harry Haller said:


> Maybe that would have been good for me, I have been free most of my life, free to make some pretty bad mistakes, and cause quite a lot of pain for myself and others around me.



That's the beauty of freedom, one can choose, you own the success and failure of yourself. By the way my good man - you are the most imperfect dictatorial subject I have interacted with, lol. And the irony is this -  I admire the person you are and your approach.



Harry Haller said:


> I have faith in myself in being able to walk a path that is guided by Waheguruji, nothing more. That guidance comes through acting as per the SGGS, rather than candles, full moons, meditation, prayer or even faith. Is faith coming to a crisis and knowing you will be ok because of Waheguruji? You will have to define faith for me.



You put the message across - simple lines in a profund and arresting manner. 

Faith to me is complete surrender to the Master. The ship of my life can endure any storm as long as I keep the hull intact by living in the teachings of the Guru ji. The storm is nothing but worldly temptations. The Gurudwara is a 'port of refuge' for maintenance, repairs or damage control and prayers are like the SOP (Standard operating procedures) manuals that have guidance on how to run the vessel most safely and efficiently.



Harry Haller said:


> Do I still look beautiful?' cannot be answered truthfully, for we are everything, not just the pure.



What matters is does she feel beautiful?. Do you make her feel so?. That is raw eternal beauty. Beauty is  felt, like love is.



Harry Haller said:


> so by not lying, does truthful living come naturally?



I presume so. That's the basis of my quest. If I am wrong so be it. I would have a journey as close to a lie free existence that I could as a bonus.



Harry Haller said:


> Why do your friends avoid you? because you tell the truth



I was the last guy to enter a Gurudwara. I would miss God on my bike rather than miss my bike in a Gurudwara - kind of guy. But here I am - trekking away over my high and endless doubts/insecurities.  That is blashemphy, lol. I could set a bad example and all their worldly achievements may seem meaningless like mine do. They would know best. Not my speaking the truth, their fear of realising the truth is why they avoid the Gurudwara and those who enter it.



Harry Haller said:


> A man who lauds truthful living by way of complete and utter honesty to all, is unlikely to wish to deceive even his enemies, so I must accept that there is more to truthful living than just telling the truth.



Would you believe me that most old sea dogs at sea can smell a storm, can feel it??. You can feel the depression very slowly embrace you. As a cadet I did not understand the captain. Let me start my cadetship with Waheguru, maybe I'll learn the why later. Truthful living and living truthfully !! The only thing that matters  Is the truth. 

If you feel strongly about anything you must accept that and not question it. If you feel that is right, it is. If truthful living beckons your soul so be it. You would still be living truthfully, right. Like love - Truth is always felt, before it is spoken.


Oh yes, I grew up ashore in a socialist era. I don't remember any family dinners, it was always a khandaan dinner, with my chachi, mami, etc etc and some neighbours too joining in. It felt like we lived in a big Gurudwara.

I guess nostalgia is the first sign of approaching old age, lol. 

Batman come in - this is the Phantom, lol.


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