# Even The Demigods Were Not Perfect



## rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in (Oct 24, 2008)

This path of spirituality and religion is not easy to walk. Blessed are those who follow a true guru & under his guidance attain salvation
According to Granth sahib even the demigods were not perfect. Consider the following verses :

Kabeer Says

बेद पड़े पड़ि ब्रहमे जनमु गवाइआ ॥१॥
Brahma wasted his life away, continually reading the Vedas. ||1||
सरपनी ते ऊपरि नही बलीआ ॥
No one is more powerful than the she-serpent Maya,
जिनि ब्रहमा बिसनु महादेउ छलीआ ॥१॥
who deceived even Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. ||1||
नाभि कमल ते ब्रहमा उपजे बेद पड़हि मुखि कंठि सवारि ॥
From the lotus of Vishnu's navel, Brahma was born; He chanted the Vedas with a melodious voice.
मैला ब्रहमा मैला इंदु ॥
Brahma is polluted, and Indra is polluted.
Nanak Says

ता को अंतु न जाई लखणा आवत जात रहै गुबारि ॥१॥
He could not find the Lord's limits, and he remained in the darkness of coming and going. ||1||
ईसरु ब्रहमा सेवदे अंतु तिन्ही न लहीआ ॥
Those who serve Shiva and Brahma do not find the limits of the Lord
Third Nanak Says -

ब्रहमै बेद बाणी परगासी माइआ मोह पसारा ॥
Through Brahma, the hymns of the Vedas were revealed, but the love of Maya spread.
महादेउ गिआनी वरतै घरि आपणै तामसु बहुतु अहंकारा ॥२॥
The wise one, Shiva, remains absorbed in himself, but he is engrossed in dark passions and excessive egotism. ||2||
किसनु सदा अवतारी रूधा कितु लगि तरै संसारा ॥
Vishnu is always busy reincarnating himself - who will save the world?
ब्रहमा बिसनु महादेउ त्रै गुण भुले हउमै मोहु वधाइआ ॥
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva wander in the three qualities, while their egotism and desire increase.
ब्रहमा बिसनु महेसु त्रै मूरति त्रिगुणि भरमि भुलाई ॥१६॥
The three forms of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are trapped in the three qualities, lost in confusion. ||16||

Trilochan Says

अनिक पातिक हरता त्रिभवण नाथु री तीरथि तीरथि भ्रमता लहै न पारु री ॥
Shiva, the destroyer of countless sins, the Lord and Master of the three worlds, wandered from sacred shrine to sacred shrine; he never found an end to them.
करम करि कपालु मफीटसि री ॥३॥
And yet, he could not erase the karma of cutting off Brahma's head. ||3||
FOURTH NANAK SAYS -
ब्रहमा बिसनु महादेउ त्रै गुण रोगी विचि हउमै कार कमाई ॥
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva suffer from the disease of the three gunas - the three qualities; they do their deeds in egotism.
जिनि कीए तिसहि न चेतहि बपुड़े हरि गुरमुखि सोझी पाई ॥२॥
The poor fools do not remember the One who created them; this understanding of the Lord is only obtained by those who become Gurmukh
FIFTH NANAK SAYS - 
बेद पड़े पड़ि ब्रहमे हारे इकु तिलु नही कीमति पाई ॥
Reading and reciting the Vedas, Brahma grew weary, but he did not find even a tiny bit of God's worth.
दस अउतार राजे होइ वरते महादेव अउधूता ॥
There were ten regal incarnations of Vishnu; and then there was Shiva, the renunciate.
तिन्ह भी अंतु न पाइओ तेरा लाइ थके बिभूता ॥३॥
He did not find Your (God) limits either, although he grew weary of smearing his body with ashes. ||3||


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 28, 2009)

YES..and these too need a HUMAN BODY for MUKTEE. (Gurbani)


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## Randip Singh (Aug 28, 2009)

I was reading this the other day. That is weird. Someone maybe trying to tell me something


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## Satyaban (Aug 29, 2009)

I have much respect for the Sikh scriptures but don't know what to think about what was quoted in the "OP." I consider Lord Shiva to be the Absolute and the mythology is obviously metaphor. Lord Shiva has never walked about in a physical body and all of the images are symbolic. The Absolute is certainly not a demigod.

Peace
Satyaban


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## kaur-1 (Aug 29, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> YES..and these too need a HUMAN BODY for MUKTEE. (Gurbani)



Giani ji, Muktee from what if there is only one life according to you. If we came from the SAT we are obviously going back to the SAT so whats the point of muktee?


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## lalihayer (Aug 29, 2009)

Satyaban said:


> I have much respect for the Sikh scriptures but don't know what to think about what was quoted in the "OP." I consider Lord Shiva to be the Absolute and the mythology is obviously metaphor. Lord Shiva has never walked about in a physical body and all of the images are symbolic. The Absolute is certainly not a demigod.
> 
> Peace
> Satyaban


It is the same absolute. Some call Him Allah, some Jevohah, some call Him Vishnu, others know Him as Shiva. 
But when you think Shiva as one of 3.3 billion (or some other numbers) gods or one of the trimurti guys, you are not thinking of Him as absolute.


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## lalihayer (Aug 29, 2009)

kaur-1 said:


> Giani ji, Muktee from what if there is only one life according to you. If we came from the SAT we are obviously going back to the SAT so whats the point of muktee?


Very good question. 
If we become one with Him, we lose ourselves. If we die, we lose ourselves. It is not confusing at all.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 30, 2009)

JEEWAN MUKT...we dont even have to "die" to attain MUKTEE !!
Has anyone read Bhagat Nmadev Ji asking..of WHAT PRACTICAL us is MUKTEE..if i get it only after I am DEAD ?? WHO Can SEE that so called mUKTEE ?? I WANT JEEWAN MUKTEE..NOW..while I am ALIVE..and everybody can SEE that I have GOT IT.

This is an entirely different concept from EVERY SINGLE RELIGION..all promise..AFTER DEATH ONLY. Alive..you have to BEAR WITH IT..just GRIN and bear it..BUT NOT GURMATT..Gurmatt shows us how to be JEEWAN MUKT !!!

THAT is the SOLE PURPOSE of Human LIFE..and iT only happens ONCE. 
Jeewan Mukt is FREEDOM FROM FEAR OF DEATH.....and Complete ACCEPTANCE of HIS HUKM...very first pauree of Japji sahib..HUKM RAZAII CHALLNNA.


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## lalihayer (Aug 30, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> JEEWAN MUKT...we dont even have to "die" to attain MUKTEE !!
> 
> Jeewan Mukt is FREEDOM FROM FEAR OF DEATH......



Is it freedom from fear of death or freedom from death?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Aug 30, 2009)

lalihayer said:


> Is it freedom from fear of death or freedom from death?



Lalihayer ji..
interesting !!!

 Freedom from Fear of Death..and Freedom from.DEATH itself ?
WHY are people afraid of DEATH ? Why does everyone want to LIVE FOREVER..or as long as possible anyway ??..Search fro Elixir..amrit...water of everlasting life ets etc etc is throughout the ages..the Egyptian Pharohs building the pyaramids etc are also an attemt to "live ON'' even after really dead...

So a JEEWAN MUKT is two birds with one stone..Once the "fera" has been conquered..one doesnt die anymore ?? is this same as what they say..Cowards die a THOUSAND DEATHS..while the Brave die ONCE ?? the Cowards DIE while ALIVE.and finally they Die FINIS....and the Brave DIE ONLY ONCE... and its Finis...

The Shaheeds were JEEWAN MUKT...no fear of death...( but the other part i DONT KNOW..as no one ahs come back and told us...) I take this on FAITH in MY GURU...

Whats your take ??


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## spnadmin (Aug 30, 2009)

From Sant Ravidas ji

ਗਉੜੀ ਬੈਰਾਗਣਿ 
gourree bairaagani
Gauree Bairaagan:

  ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ 
ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

  ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਸਤੁ ਤੇਤਾ ਜਗੀ ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਪੂਜਾਚਾਰ ॥ 
sathajug sath thaethaa jagee dhuaapar poojaachaar ||
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, was Truth; in the Silver Age of Trayta Yuga, charitable feasts; in the Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga, there was worship.

ਤੀਨੌ ਜੁਗ ਤੀਨੌ ਦਿੜੇ ਕਲਿ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ਅਧਾਰ ॥੧॥ 
theena jug theena dhirrae kal kaeval naam adhhaar ||1||
In those three ages, people held to these three ways. But in the Iron Age of Kali Yuga, the Name of the Lord is your only Support. ||1||

ਪਾਰੁ ਕੈਸੇ ਪਾਇਬੋ ਰੇ ॥ 
paar kaisae paaeibo rae ||
How can I swim across?

 ਮੋ ਸਉ ਕੋਊ ਨ ਕਹੈ ਸਮਝਾਇ ॥ 
mo so kooo n kehai samajhaae ||
No one has explained to me,


 ਜਾ ਤੇ ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ ਬਿਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
jaa thae aavaa gavan bilaae ||1|| rehaao ||
so that I might understand how I can escape reincarnation. ||1||Pause||


 ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਧਰਮ ਨਿਰੂਪੀਐ ਕਰਤਾ ਦੀਸੈ ਸਭ ਲੋਇ ॥ 
bahu bidhh dhharam niroopeeai karathaa dheesai sabh loe ||
So many forms of religion have been described; the whole world is practicing them.


ਕਵਨ ਕਰਮ ਤੇ ਛੂਟੀਐ ਜਿਹ ਸਾਧੇ ਸਭ ਸਿਧਿ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥ 
kavan karam thae shhootteeai jih saadhhae sabh sidhh hoe ||2||
What actions will bring emancipation, and total perfection? ||2||


ਕਰਮ ਅਕਰਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੀਐ ਸੰਕਾ ਸੁਨਿ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥ 
karam akaram beechaareeai sankaa sun baedh puraan ||
One may distinguish between good and evil actions, and listen to the Vedas and the Puraanas,


 ਸੰਸਾ ਸਦ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਹਿਰੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥੩॥ 
sansaa sadh hiradhai basai koun hirai abhimaan ||3||
but doubt still persists. Skepticism continually dwells in the heart, so who can eradicate egotistical pride? ||3||


 ਬਾਹਰੁ ਉਦਕਿ ਪਖਾਰੀਐ ਘਟ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਬਿਬਿਧਿ ਬਿਕਾਰ ॥ 
baahar oudhak pakhaareeai ghatt bheethar bibidhh bikaar ||
Outwardly, he washes with water, but deep within, his heart is tarnished by all sorts of vices.


 ਸੁਧ ਕਵਨ ਪਰ ਹੋਇਬੋ ਸੁਚ ਕੁੰਚਰ ਬਿਧਿ ਬਿਉਹਾਰ ॥੪॥ 
sudhh kavan par hoeibo such kunchar bidhh biouhaar ||4||
So how can he become pure? His method of purification is like that of an elephant, covering himself with dust right after his bath! ||4||


ਰਵਿ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸ ਰਜਨੀ ਜਥਾ ਗਤਿ ਜਾਨਤ ਸਭ ਸੰਸਾਰ ॥ 
rav pragaas rajanee jathhaa gath jaanath sabh sansaar ||
With the rising of the sun, the night is brought to its end; the whole world knows this.


 ਪਾਰਸ ਮਾਨੋ ਤਾਬੋ ਛੁਏ ਕਨਕ ਹੋਤ ਨਹੀ ਬਾਰ ॥੫॥ 
paaras maano thaabo shhueae kanak hoth nehee baar ||5||
It is believed that with the touch of the Philosopher's Stone, copper is immediately transformed into gold. ||5||


 ਪਰਮ ਪਰਸ ਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੀਐ ਪੂਰਬ ਲਿਖਤ ਲਿਲਾਟ ॥ 
param paras gur bhaetteeai poorab likhath lilaatt ||
When one meets the Supreme Philosopher's Stone, the Guru, if such pre-ordained destiny is written on one's forehead,


ਉਨਮਨ ਮਨ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਮਿਲੇ ਛੁਟਕਤ ਬਜਰ ਕਪਾਟ ॥੬॥ 
ounaman man man hee milae shhuttakath bajar kapaatt ||6||
then the soul blends with the Supreme Soul, and the stubborn doors are opened wide. ||6||


ਭਗਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਮਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰੀ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਾਟਿ ਬਿਕਾਰ ॥ 
bhagath jugath math sath karee bhram bandhhan kaatt bikaar ||
Through the way of devotion, the intellect is imbued with Truth; doubts, entanglements and vices are cut away.


 ਸੋਈ ਬਸਿ ਰਸਿ ਮਨ ਮਿਲੇ ਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਏਕ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥੭॥ 
soee bas ras man milae gun niragun eaek bichaar ||7||
The mind is restrained, and one attains joy, contemplating the One Lord, who is both with and without qualities. ||7||

ਅਨਿਕ ਜਤਨ ਨਿਗ੍ਰਹ ਕੀਏ ਟਾਰੀ ਨ ਟਰੈ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਫਾਸ ॥ 
anik jathan nigreh keeeae ttaaree n ttarai bhram faas ||
I have tried many methods, but by turning it away, the noose of doubt is not turned away.


 ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਊਪਜੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਉਦਾਸ ॥੮॥੧॥ 
praem bhagath nehee oopajai thaa thae ravidhaas oudhaas ||8||1||
Love and devotion have not welled up within me, and so Ravi Daas is sad and depressed. ||8||1||

 Sant Ravi Dass is 'sad and depressed' because he has not found the love and devotion  within himself in this lifetime, the efforts of that lifetime he describes vividly. Take it apart. He knows that the only thing that will support him (and anyone else) is the Naam. He does not know how to swim across (overcome reincarnation, coming and going) and no one has been able to explain to him how to do it. (Though many have tried.) He says every religion is explaining how to do it and none of their teachings make any sense. Egotistical pride gets in the way, skepticism gets in the way, rituals. a heart full of vice gets in the way, and rituals and practices are not only the mark of a hypocrite but the value of all of it is lost on the elephant like mind of humankind. 

Now to me this is the key to the shabad. Though the way to liberation may elude one, Ravidas is certain of one thing:

 ਰਵਿ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸ ਰਜਨੀ ਜਥਾ ਗਤਿ ਜਾਨਤ ਸਭ ਸੰਸਾਰ ॥ 
rav pragaas rajanee jathhaa gath jaanath sabh sansaar ||
With the rising of the sun, the night is brought to its end; the whole world knows this.

 In my humble opinion, this means that the darkness must, will always, has to end when the sun rises. The light rises -- the jyot comes -- the darkness of doubt and illusion must disappear. This is not something happening after death, because in the next lines Sant Ravidas is saying that that mind is opened up and doubt and illusion are washed away with one touch of the Philosopher' Stone who is the Satguru.  

ਉਨਮਨ ਮਨ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਮਿਲੇ ਛੁਟਕਤ ਬਜਰ ਕਪਾਟ ॥੬॥ 
ounaman man man hee milae shhuttakath bajar kapaatt ||6||
then the soul blends with the Supreme Soul, and the stubborn doors are opened wide. ||6||

* Mukhte happens in the "now" not in the thereafter. My question: If this is true, then what purpose is served by reincarnation?*


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## kaur-1 (Aug 30, 2009)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> J
> 
> THAT is the SOLE PURPOSE of Human LIFE..and iT only happens ONCE.
> 
> Jeewan Mukt is FREEDOM FROM FEAR OF DEATH.....and Complete ACCEPTANCE of HIS HUKM...very first pauree of Japji sahib..HUKM RAZAII CHALLNNA.



Giani ji, I have mentioned that shabad in If there is only ONE life then is this fair?  Kaurkhalsaraj's Blog

You explained what muktee means but have yet to explainwhat happens to those who have not achieved muktee nor are Gurmukhs.

I think you know the point I am trying to make here. If there is no "coming and going" then whats the point of achieving mutkee even whilst alive?

*Where is the fair and just Divine Justice?*

I dont think sikhmarg writers looked at the overall picture and hastily rejected reincarnation/transmigration.

If there is ONLY ONE LIFE then you are implying that Akal Purakh is unfair. For certain people he wrote a favourable hukam and for some not 

*"Hukam raja-ee calna Nanak lekhea naal."*

If we only have one life then we must have come from the SAT so why is Akal Purakh being unfair with the hukam for some?

The shabad below does not mean one life only and I have refered to this in If there is only one human life then where ..  Kaurkhalsaraj's Blog

Quote"

*The shabad below DOES NOT mean that we only have one human life  and this shabad DOES NOT mean that there is no reincarnation (irrespective of whatever form we reincarnate into)*
 ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥ ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥ ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥: Bhaee praapat maanukh dehureeaa. Gobind milan kee ih teree bareeaa. Avar kaaj terai kitai n kaam. Mil saadh sangat bhaj keval Naam ||1||: (O brother) this human body has been given to you. This is your chance to meet God. (If no effort is put forward to realize God, then) all other efforts (work, ਉੱਦਮ) will be of no use (to your soul). (Therefore) join the Holy Company; (there) contemplate on the Divine Name alone ||1|| (sggs 12).


*‘Bareeaa’ means your turn or your time.* This shabad is teachings us  that  in our form is the only form that has the ability for us to realise God i.e. achieve the purpose of human life.  So make an efort ……"

Where do you think our turn came from? If we came from the SAT then whats the point of "our turn" Bareeaa?

This shabad is highlighting the importance of human life and is also warning us that there may not be another human life to achieve the purpose of human life. 
Gurbani is always urging us to make the effort to achieve muktee- now at present - dont waste time - make the effort but it does not reject reincarnation/transmigration.

Rejecting reincarnation/transmigration which is "coming and going" is rejecting fair and just divine justice.


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## kaur-1 (Aug 30, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> Muktee happens in the "now" not in the thereafter. My question: If this is true, then what purpose is served by reincarnation.



For those who have achieved muktee are released from coming and going. Hence Coming and Going (reincarnation/transmigration) in Sikhee is not fatalistic.

What happens to those who have not for whatever reasons (and there are many reasons).

A true gurmukh reaches this state of mind raaj na chaaha-o mukat na chaaha-o man pareet charan kamlaaray - but what about those who cant for various reasons?

"Coming and going" is all part of Akal Purakhs Divine fair and just Play.


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## spnadmin (Aug 30, 2009)

*Why so much focus on fatalism or is lack in Sikhism? If mukhtee can be achieved in this life, then what is the purpose of reincarnation?* It, reincarnation, may be a bankrupt concept and so fatalism would not be at issue.


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## kaur-1 (Aug 30, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> *Why so much focus on fatalism or is lack in Sikhism? If mukhtee can be achieved in this life, then what is the purpose of reincarnation?* It, reincarnation, may be a bankrupt concept and so fatalism would not be at issue.



1. Concept of reincarnation/transmigration defers in Sikhee.
2. Cycle of 'coming and going' (which is the best term to explain reincarnation/transmigration) in Sikhee is not fatalistic meaning that it can be ended whilst Alive. 
3. Not all are able to achieve muktee whilst alive. So what happens to them?
4. Not all know of this fact that muktee can be achieved whilst alive and the how' to.

Coming and going is Divine justice.

Please tell me what happens to those Manmukhs if there is no divine justice?


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## spnadmin (Aug 30, 2009)

kaur-1 said:


> 1. Concept of reincarnation/transmigration defers in Sikhee.
> 2. Cycle of 'coming and going' (which is the best term to explain reincarnation/transmigration) in Sikhee is not fatalistic meaning that it can be ended whilst Alive. Its part of Gurbani so saying that fatalism is a non issue does not make any sense.
> 3. Not all are able to achieve muktee whilst alive. So what happens to them?
> 4. Not all know of this fact that muktee can be achieved whilst alive and the how' to.
> ...



Kaur-1 ji You have made points 1-4 very clearly in the thread. You are saying, as do many others, that our Guru's renounced the fatalism of the Vedas and re-defined reincarnation .

But I am looking at the shabad of Sant Ravidas and coming up with a different question. The banee of Sant Ravidas has been discussed -- methinks in an overly simplistic way with too much attention paid to words out of context. Sant Ravidas says  

ਰਵਿ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸ ਰਜਨੀ ਜਥਾ ਗਤਿ ਜਾਨਤ ਸਭ ਸੰਸਾਰ ॥ 
rav pragaas rajanee jathhaa gath jaanath sabh sansaar ||
With the rising of the sun, the night is brought to its end; the whole world knows this.

This is today, now,  for 

ਉਨਮਨ ਮਨ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਮਿਲੇ ਛੁਟਕਤ ਬਜਰ ਕਪਾਟ ॥੬॥ 
ounaman man man hee milae shhuttakath bajar kapaatt ||6||
then the soul blends with the Supreme Soul, and the stubborn doors are opened wide. ||6||

 Not only does fatalism cease to be an issue, but Divine Justice is when the stubborn doors are opened wide. 

The reward is to have a soul turned to gold (sukh). The punishment is to live in darkness (dukh). This message is repeated throughout Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Heaven and hell are here on earth. 

To answer your question, the manmukhs remain manmukhs and die manmukhs.


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## kaur-1 (Aug 30, 2009)

Narayanjot Kaur said:


> This is today, now,  for
> 
> ਉਨਮਨ ਮਨ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਮਿਲੇ ਛੁਟਕਤ ਬਜਰ ਕਪਾਟ ॥੬॥
> ounaman man man hee milae shhuttakath bajar kapaatt ||6||
> ...



2. Cycle of 'coming and going' (which is the best term to explain reincarnation/transmigration) in Sikhee is not fatalistic meaning that it can be ended whilst Alive.

I have already stated that previously.



Narayanjot Kaur said:


> To answer your question, the manmukhs remain manmukhs and die manmukhs.



And manmukhs merge back to the SAT? If  so then why bother being a Gurmukh?

Divine punishment as in "cause and effect" occurs not only whilst alive, it also occurs after death for those who have not achieved the purpose of life. "Awan jawan" is the by product of this divine justice.


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## spnadmin (Aug 30, 2009)

kaur-1 said:


> 2. Cycle of 'coming and going' (which is the best term to explain reincarnation/transmigration) in Sikhee is not fatalistic meaning that it can be ended whilst Alive.
> 
> I have already stated that previously.
> 
> ...



Yes you have stated that 'coming and going' is not fatalistic in Sikhee and it can be ended whilst Alive. I have acknowledged that.

Yes Manmukhs on death merge in the SAT. Everything on death is merged back into the SAT because it came from the SAT and goes back to the SAT.  If not all of creation does not return to the SAT, then where does it go? The answer cannot be that it reincarnates until it is ready, purified, liberated -- and only then it goes back to the SAT. Because the SAT pervades everywhere. 

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਇਕੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਏਕੋ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
  sabh mehi eik varathadhaa eaeko rehiaa samaae ||
  The One Lord permeates all. The One Lord is pervading everywhere.

We can't escape the SAT. It is already our identity. What we can do is ignore this Truth. When we ignore it then we cause pain for ourselves and for those whom our actions affect. Then we are manmukh.

To see reincarnation as a process for "getting there" -- but only after we get it right-- is the image of a Divine lottery. The theory of reincarnation then would be that in some "joon" we finally get it, achieve mukhtee, and hit the "number." And even within that theory of a Divine lottery that we achieve mukhtee during the only lifetime of which we are aware. There is no morality nor justice in this theory because we can count on another chance and another chance and another chance -- and always counting on another joon to put our affairs in order and overcome ego, lust, greed, anger, attachment. Meanwhile we cause greate suffering.

Yes manmukhs merge back into the SAT. So what is the point of being a Gurmukh? It is answered in Gurbani -
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪੂਰਾ ਜੇ ਕਰੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਾਚੁ ਅਤੋਲੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
  guramukh pooraa jae karae paaeeai saach athol ||1|| rehaao ||
  One who attains perfection as Gurmukh, obtains the Immeasurable True Lord. ||1||Pause||

...it is the priceless jewel that is obtained in this lifetime. Awareness of this jewel is obtained by the Gurmukh. To overcome "coming and going" and obtain mukhtee is not the *reason* to be Gurmukh. It is the consequence: 

ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਜੀਅਰੇ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚੀਨੈ ਆਪੁ ॥੩॥
  har jap jeearae shhutteeai guramukh cheenai aap ||3||
   Chanting the Name of the Lord, O my soul, you shall be emancipated; as Gurmukh, you shall come to understand your own self. ||3||

 There is no other reason to be a Gurmukh than to be the pure and happy soul bride. To obtain spiritual wisdom. Instead of *suspecting* the Gurmukh knows that the Naam abides within. When we obtain this priceless jewel we become better people in this lifetime and do not cause pain and suffering for others. The reward is immediate.


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## kaur-1 (Aug 30, 2009)

So a mammukh gets exactly what a Gurmukh gets!! If thats the case then whats the point of "Kev saceara hoi-ai kev koorai tutai paal. Hukam raja-ee calna Nanak lekhea naal. P.1
ikv sicAwrw hoeIAY ikv kUVY qutY pwil Ò hukim rjweI clxw nwnk iliKAw nwil Ò" ?


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## spnadmin (Aug 30, 2009)

No read what I said again. The purpose or reason for being a Gurmukh is just that -- i.e., to be a Gurmukh because to choose the good is reason in and of its own. The emancipation or the mukhtee is the outcome, the result, the consequence of being a Gurmukh. To decide - I want mukhtee therefore I will strive to be a Gurmukh is self serving. And it will not work. Effort does not work. 

Where does it say in the banee that you have quoted that Manmukhs do not return to the SAT.  It says:
ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥ 
kiv sachiaaraa hoeeai kiv koorrai thuttai paal ||
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥ 
hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1||
O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||
This is what the Gurmuk chooses. The Manmukh who turns his face away from the Guru is punished in his lifetime. The Gurmukh who turns his face to the Guru is fulfilled in this lifetime.

No one escapes SAT - it is where we are at this very moment.


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## lalihayer (Aug 30, 2009)

kaur-1 said:


> So a mammukh gets exactly what a Gurmukh gets!! If thats the case then whats the point of "Kev saceara hoi-ai kev koorai tutai paal. Hukam raja-ee calna Nanak lekhea naal. P.1
> ikv sicAwrw hoeIAY ikv kUVY qutY pwil Ò hukim rjweI clxw nwnk iliKAw nwil Ò" ?


Kaur-1 ji, Manmukhs can get even more than Gurmukhs.
 Focus more. Answer is the key to next level. I am posting just to clarify the tuk, nothing to do with rest of the discussion.
Special Note: Accepting Hukm does not mean fatalism.


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## Satyaban (Aug 31, 2009)

lalihayer said:


> It is the same absolute. Some call Him Allah, some Jevohah, some call Him Vishnu, others know Him as Shiva.
> But when you think Shiva as one of 3.3 billion (or some other numbers) gods or one of the trimurti guys, you are not thinking of Him as absolute.


 
I assume you have not read any of my posts on spiritual matters. So I will repeat. When I mention my beliefs on spiritual matters that is what they are. I claim no exclusivity to Truth as it can be said many ways. Also it matters not what name a person chooses to call The Absolute, the names you mentioned are fine and so is Great Spirit or Bob or Horace.

You mentioned the multitude of Gods and demigods and I think revealed a misunderstanding of the concept.

I think we both agree that The Creator is beyond our comprehension or real understanding. What all are aware of are aspects of (insert the name of your choice) those being rain, sunshine, prosperity, good crops, death well I could go on and on. So in order to address the immensity of the Supreme being all of these aspects have been given names as demigods but they are in no way separate from The Absolute.

Peace
Satyaban


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## kaur-1 (Aug 31, 2009)

lalihayer said:


> Kaur-1 ji, Manmukhs can get even more than Gurmukhs.
> Focus more. Answer is the key to next level. I am posting just to clarify the tuk, nothing to do with rest of the discussion.
> Special Note: Accepting Hukm does not mean fatalism.



Hukam raja-ee calna Nanak *lekhea naa**l*.


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## Satyaban (Aug 31, 2009)

"According to Granth sahib even the demigods were not perfect."

Isn't the above quote to give hope to all. Do we all not do harm in either thought or deed everyday or in some other manner, I think we do.

I think we all agree that the Self, atman, jiva or whatever the Punjabi word is eternal without beginning or end. I also think we all believe that the Self will reunite with The Absolute. Where we differ on is The Self's journey in between.

It is my belief that whatever lives will die and whatever is dead shall be reborn. So what is the purpose? Spiritual evolution to achieve reunion with God is my answer. Can this be achieved in one's current life, I think so but not without previous lives. It happens everyday. If someone does not believe in rebirth it is a Pascal's Wager meaning there is nothing to lose and is covered either way. Does anyone believe that we live this life and return to The Creator no matter how we behaved and what or who we harmed? I sure don't. So I ask, "If you don't believe in rebirth what are the possibilities for the real Self when a person's "cash" karma and lifestyle does not warrant moksha or reunion with The Creator?" I used the term cash karma because to a person with a "one lifetime" belief there can be no other kind. How acts of multiple murder or suicide can be reckoned with such a belief I don't know.

Anyway the stories about demigods are there to teach us much as Greek mythology involved its gods in the same type of affairs humans
 have.

So after all of that I am not sure where this thread has wandered to.

Peace always
Satyaban


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