# Maintaining Our Culture



## satwant (Oct 27, 2007)

I live outside of India and listen to punjabi songs more often than not. I crave to watch punjabi videos of my favourite songs. but what is so demoralising are the actor and actresses in the videos. Practically hero is clean shave and the actress has short hair. 

Nothing of the punjabi culture is being displayed except ladies in short skirts and guys with latest fashionable hair styles. It is sad that our culture is being eroded through this medium and nothing is being said or done to maintain our culture. even the singers who have "paag" and "dari" have decided to use extras that have no sembelence to our culture.

The purpose of this thread is to make a plea to whoever is in a position to make a change to slowly but surely educate the singers that it is hip and cool to use extras that have "paag" and "dari" and ladies with full grown hair and wearing punjabi suits to dance. 

If not, our culture will be dead even before we know it. The world has caught up with bhangra and find it cool to be associated with it but we are running away from our own culture. most of the hindi movies must have a bhangra song and dance to make it a hit.

So, wy do we shun a culture that is so rich, vibrant and colourful with our own brand that has "paag" and "dari".   

Satwant


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## BhagatSingh (Oct 27, 2007)

satwant said:


> I live outside of India and listen to punjabi songs more often than not. I crave to watch punjabi videos of my favourite songs. but what is so demoralising are the actor and actresses in the videos. Practically hero is clean shave and the actress has short hair.
> 
> Nothing of the punjabi culture is being displayed except ladies in short skirts and guys with latest fashionable hair styles. It is sad that our culture is being eroded through this medium and nothing is being said or done to maintain our culture. even the singers who have "paag" and "dari" have decided to use extras that have no sembelence to our culture.
> 
> ...


 
the majority of us are idiots thats why. A few of us who are not have started things like Sarbloh Warriors and Singh Media


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## TGill (Oct 27, 2007)

> the majority of us are idiots thats why. A few of us who are not have started things like Sarbloh Warriors and Singh Media


 
All are idiot who don't know true sabad including us and Sarbloh warriors/Singh Media. This is the reason gurus culture is getting shunned...


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## Sundri (Oct 29, 2007)

We can maintain our culture by maintaining it ourselfs and in our immediate family to began with. I'm glad  I'm not in punjab. People who are away from punjab are making more efforts to save it then people in punjab. So let us start by greeting each other in public and private meetings with Waheguru ji ka khlasa Waheguru Ji ki Fateh. Let us start by learning Japji and reciting with our elders and neighbors. Let us invite our neighbors for exchange of views and discussions. Let go to our children or bother and sister's schools and give a talk etc. 
And let us maintain Punjabi culture  by..............................Please complete the list.


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## clarkejoey (Oct 29, 2007)

Hold on a minute... are Punjabi culture and Sikh culture the same thing? The posts do imply that.


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## Astroboy (Oct 29, 2007)

Clarkejoey ji,

Good question.

My answer: Sikhism is not regional but global, universal.
Most punjabis are sikhs, others are hindus and muslims and possibly christians, jainis, etc.
Most new sikhs are not punjabis. Here's a link from where new sikhs probably come from:
http://www.kundaliniyoga.com/Clients/ikyta/Members.nsf/Members Directory?OpenForm


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## Archived_Member_19 (Oct 29, 2007)

clarkejoey,

you are spot on

ppl mix up sikhism and punjabi culture

whatever you see being done as "rituals" in any of the gurudwaras has roots in punjabi culture

langar served sitting on ground has punjabi/indian cultural roots

doing chaur over SGGS has punjabi roots

matha tekna has punjabi roots

preparing only wheat & desi ghee deg has punjabi roots

...

the list goes on and on and on

the essence of sikhism is lost many a times in show of punjabi culture


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## clarkejoey (Oct 29, 2007)

"Sikhism is not regional but global, universal." said Begum.

That's what I thought; in fact, as someone far, far from Punjabi culture, the closest thing to an obstacle in my Sikh journey is exactly this: where does Punjabi end and Sikh begin? I understand the retention of the original language(s) of scripture, i understand the use of cultural symbols (turban, sword, etc.)... but the impression one sometimes gets is that one must adopt a wholly Punjabi lifestyle/selfimage in order to be a Sikh. But that can't be; any religion worthy of the whole human race must be adaptable to the whole of human culture.

For instance, i find the language a HUGE difficulty, and i have no doubt that others who might have made a contribution have turned away because of it.

Is it that Sikhs themselves (ourselves) are not secure in their (our) identity?


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## Astroboy (Nov 25, 2007)

The spread of Sikhism would naturally follow a certain pathway. By this I mean, people who come into Sikhism through conversion are automatically going to go through the fusion at first - fusion of their culture with the teachings of Sikhism. We may not look at the whole thing as going according to plan but it is natural for people to mix their culture with religion.

Say for eg, if there is a concentration of new sikhs in Russia, they would opt for the Russian Dance instead of the Bhangra. It might look like a mess but it isn't. It will take alot of time for Russian new Sikhs to separate their culture from the Sikh religion.

Comments welcomed.


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## kds1980 (Nov 25, 2007)

> Say for eg, if there is a concentration of new sikhs in Russia, they would opt for the Russian Dance instead of the Bhangra. It might look like a mess but it isn't. It will take alot of time for Russian new Sikhs to separate their culture from the Sikh religion.



Pardon me santokh singh ji but the aim of sikhism should not be spreading of punjabi culture.Russian,american and any other sikh has every right to maintain their culture
The aim of sikhism is to spread the spirituality of guru nanak.no community leaves it culture.For example culturally there is no difference between bengali and hindu muslims
but still religion wise they are different.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 25, 2007)

to add to Begum ji's comment

sikhi(Faith) is a personal belief and internal framework for a person's conscience and bearing to navigate the spiritual as well and material world

punjabiyat, afghani(culture) is outward interpersonal interaction framework. necessary to build a sense of belonging and provides emotional support and fosters growth. Has roots in our genes.

Sikhism(religion) is intertwining of both culture and faith. Developed to build sense of community.Framework to help a person reach out to like minded people.


so as long as you imbibe Sikhi inside you, your internal framework will reflect irrespective of your culture.

i agree that spread of Sikhi should be our motive.

Sikhism will develop and adapt as it goes to various cultures.


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## Astroboy (Nov 25, 2007)

Yes, it does bring a happy and homely feeling for a Punjabi-speaking individual to hear Punjabi folk songs, whether they are performed by Pak Muslims, Sikhs or Hindus in Punjab. 
Here are a few punjabi folk song which I found
YouTube - Lathe De Chader (Punjabi Folk Song)
YouTube - Tumbi
YouTube - Lollywood, Heer ranjha
YouTube - Reshma Speaks English
YouTube - Reshma (Punjabi Song)


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## Randip Singh (Nov 26, 2007)

clarkejoey said:


> Hold on a minute... are Punjabi culture and Sikh culture the same thing? The posts do imply that.


 
Punjabi Culture is Regional

Sikhism is Universal

Sikhism does not tie itself to a place, person, land, language, culture.

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji was written in the common tongue (unlike Sankrit) descernible to all......the message was clear from this that the Guru's message was meant for All.

Saying this......Punjabi Culture sems to be going through a flux................


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## clarkejoey (Nov 26, 2007)

My question still is: where does Sikh culture end and Punjabi culture begin?

For instance, it seems to me that just about every technical term for participation in worship, studying scripture or even meditating, is expressed in Punjabi. To be quite honest, this newbie often doesn't know what folk are talking about... except after rooting in his trusty punjabi grammar.

Prayer, study, meditation, hymn, community, deeper meaning... each of these have a preferred non-English term that sometimes leaves me feeling excluded.


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## kds1980 (Nov 26, 2007)

clarkejoey said:


> My question still is: where does Sikh culture end and Punjabi culture begin?
> 
> For instance, it seems to me that just about every technical term for participation in worship, studying scripture or even meditating, is expressed in Punjabi. To be quite honest, this newbie often doesn't know what folk are talking about... except after rooting in his trusty punjabi grammar.
> 
> Prayer, study, meditation, hymn, community, deeper meaning... each of these have a preferred non-English term that sometimes leaves me feeling excluded.



Dear clarke

There is no such thing as sikh culture.99% of sikhs are punjabi so its obvious you will find element of punjabi culture in it.This problem will solve when more non punjabi people 
will embrace sikhism,dedicate their lives in study of gurbani ,sikhism and will come up with
study and deeper meaning in non punjabi language.


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## Astroboy (Nov 26, 2007)

clarkejoey said:


> Prayer, study, meditation, hymn, community, deeper meaning... each of these have a preferred non-English term that sometimes leaves me feeling excluded.


 
Clarke, you can start by asking about 5 questions on the Sikh religion under a new thread - it would be good as it could lead more people to ask their set of questions. Some questions might even sound stupid but believe me, they are not. There is no right or wrong in the learning process. I will appreciate if you asked basic questions which you have a hard time with.


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## clarkejoey (Nov 26, 2007)

Sat sri akal



kds1980 said:


> There is no such thing as sikh culture.


 
Kds ji, I wonder. No particularly "Sikh" sound in the music? No especially Sikh way of cooking or keeping house? If Sikhi is indeed a lifestyle, then it would follow that it would have, if not a culture as such, at least some cultural referents: eg a sikh style of punjabi music, a sikh theme in punjabi literature.



kds1980 said:


> 99% of sikhs are punjabi so its obvious you will find element of punjabi culture in it. This problem will solve when more non punjabi people will embrace sikhism, dedicate their lives in study of gurbani, sikhism and will come up with study and deeper meaning in non punjabi language.


 
And there's the chicken-and-egg story! which comes first? Punjabi sikhs expressing themselves in ways to attract non-Punjabis, or converts learning the faith and making it their own? I haven't got an answer, by the way. I suspect that both will need to continue so the faith can expand.

Begum ji, the long thread about Naam is something like what i would be asking. Somebody beat me to it though.:roll:

Thanks for the offer; I'll formulate a question or two.


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## Astroboy (Nov 26, 2007)

clarkejoey said:


> And there's the chicken-and-egg story! which comes first? Punjabi sikhs expressing themselves in ways to attract non-Punjabis, or converts learning the faith and making it their own? I haven't got an answer, by the way. I suspect that both will need to continue so the faith can expand.
> 
> Begum ji, the long thread about Naam is something like what i would be asking. Somebody beat me to it though.:roll:
> 
> Thanks for the offer; I'll formulate a question or two.


 
Punjabis have no monopoly on Sikhism. Yes, the governing body in Amritsar is run by Punjabis. But everyone can practice Sikhism in their own unique way. A good way to start could be by reading stories and life of Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh. 

You were Blocked- is a good website to visit.


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## kds1980 (Nov 26, 2007)

> Kds ji, I wonder. No particularly "Sikh" sound in the music? No especially Sikh way of cooking or keeping house? If Sikhi is indeed a lifestyle, then it would follow that it would have, if not a culture as such, at least some cultural referents: eg a sikh style of punjabi music, a sikh theme in punjabi literature.



Pardon me but i am unable to properly understand what you are saying.Are you referring to shabad kirtan.If yes then i don't know whether it is punjabi music or not.also the way of shabad kirtan was also changed.Some sikhs say that there was no harmonium at the time of guru's and it is an european equipment so it is not the original style of kirtan of guru's time.As far cooking and keeping house is concerned there is no sikh way in these things at all.



> And there's the chicken-and-egg story! which comes first? Punjabi sikhs expressing themselves in ways to attract non-Punjabis, or converts learning the faith and making it their own? I haven't got an answer, by the way.I suspect that both will need to continue so the faith can expand.
> 
> Begum ji, the long thread about Naam is something like what i would be asking. Somebody beat me to it though.
> 
> Thanks for the offer; I'll formulate a question or two.



It is not chicken and egg story.Non punjabi sikhs has to take initiative.we punjabi sikhs had 300 years to spread the message of guru nanak and sikhism to whole world but forget about world punjabi sikhs were unable to spread the sikhism in india.In india people cannot even think that a non punjabi person could be sikh.I posted a thread about sikhs of guru hargobind ji in which bhai gurdas ji mentioned about the sikhs which were from
various parts of india.But with time that diversity just vanished.


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## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 27, 2007)

<<If Sikhi is indeed a lifestyle>>

i think this assumption is wrong

sikhi is your inner belief set which influences your lifestyle.

I donot think sikhi(the message in SGGS) prescribes a lifestyle like cooking, praying, keeping house ( in my humble knowledge)


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## clarkejoey (Nov 29, 2007)

"As far cooking and keeping house is concerned there is no sikh way in these things at all."

Sure there is: keep house with an extra room for Guru, keep house in such a way as to wake up at 3 a.m., and as for cooking... there's a thread here called "fools who wrangle over flesh" that says there IS a sikh way to cook, or at any rate, a non-sikh way to cook.

Culture, frankly, is everything you do in your lifestyle, and if as amarsanghera says: "sikhi is your inner belief set which influences your lifestyle," then all that you do will flow from your belief set into your life, into your culture! Perhaps this is a difficulty of semantics.

kds ji, i must clarify: is it technically ok to worship with shabads in, say, reggae? provided the music is respectful to the material? Is it valid worship to sing kirtan in, say, english? This is only a part of my question. It's been busy in my corner, i hope i'm not rushing, and i do mean to ask a good solid question real soon. In the mean time...

I discovered that on Nov 24 we were celebrating "Guru Nanak Dev ji Prakash Utsav". But the place where i found it (You were Blocked) only discussed the dear Guru, without telling me what a Prakash Utsav is. Let me be clear: i love that particular site, it's very informative, but i find that many writers/webmasters take a lot for granted.

NOTE - not throwing stones at anybody!

This is the sort of thing that leaves me a little confused, feeling that if i don't know the language, i can't share the festivity.


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## kds1980 (Nov 29, 2007)

> Sure there is: keep house with an extra room for Guru, keep house in such a way as to wake up at 3 a.m.,



Well it is for people who want to keep guru granth sahib in their house.more than 90%
of sikhs don't have guru granth sahib in their house.Moreover any one can keep guru granth sahib in parts and there is no need for extra room or waking up at 3 A.M.



> there's a thread here called "fools who wrangle over flesh" that says there IS a sikh way to cook, or at any rate, a non-sikh way to cook.



Meat is a separate issue.At present there is only 1 restriction and that is not to eat halal.
You will find this issue whether to eat meat or not in many religions.



> kds ji, i must clarify: is it technically ok to worship with shabads in, say, reggae? provided the music is respectful to the material? Is it valid worship to sing kirtan in, say, english? This is only a part of my question. It's been busy in my corner, i hope i'm not rushing, and i do mean to ask a good solid question real soon. In the mean time



If you ask me then i beleive there is nothing wrong in it.Our guru's accepted many languages.if someone sing hymns in english with spiritual music there is nothing wrong in it.



> I discovered that on Nov 24 we were celebrating "Guru Nanak Dev ji Prakash Utsav". But the place where i found it (You were Blocked) only discussed the dear Guru, without telling me what a Prakash Utsav is. Let me be clear: i love that particular site, it's very informative, but i find that many writers/webmasters take a lot for granted.



I already told you that majority of sikhs are punjabi so they create article with indian words forgetting That non indian could also be sikhs.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 29, 2007)

clarkejoey said:


> kds ji, i must clarify: is it technically ok to worship with shabads in, say, reggae? provided the music is respectful to the material? Is it valid worship to sing kirtan in, say, english? This is only a part of my question. It's been busy in my corner, i hope i'm not rushing, and i do mean to ask a good solid question real soon. In the mean time...


 

you can sing shabads to whatever music you can play.  you can also sing them in english.  personally, i enjoy it when people mix the two- singing in the original language then repeating it in english.   check out Gurbani Music, Shabd Kirtan, Sikh stories and videos, MP3 files and more and click "western shabads" for a nice selection.

one caveat:  if you're singing in front of Guru Granth Sahib ji, please only sing from Gurbani or the vaars Bhai Gurdas ji.  everything else is "kachee bani" and is not acceptable.    it's ok to sing non-gurbani in other places, but in front of Guru it's strictly a no-no.


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## spnadmin (Nov 29, 2007)

clarkejoey ji,

How I identify with your state of mind. It is hard to learn all there is to learn as fast as you want to. It takes time to fill in all the details and get all of the nuances too.

What helps? Learning about Sikhism in a forum will teach you how many points of view are part of Sikhi. But facts and opinions get inter-mingled. It is better to read information in non-forum sites. Then when you are in a forum you are in a better position to judge what you read. Sikhism is actually very diverse. Using vegetarianism as an example -- yes, there are individuals and sects of Sikhism that practice vegetarianism as a matter of faith. But you have to read a lot to figure who and where they are.

Forums are rambunctious places -- which is why they are so enjoyable. This is particularly true for all forums with religious content and not just SPN. Religion is a very emotional topic.

Kelley-kaur ji -- I have a question for you. Would you say a little more about kachi bani. Help me get to the bottom of this. When a raagi sings a raag from Gurbani on a CD is that kachi bani? Or am I getting mixed up about this. Thanks for any insight you can provide.


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## Archived_Member1 (Nov 29, 2007)

aad0002 said:


> Kelley-kaur ji -- I have a question for you. Would you say a little more about kachi bani. Help me get to the bottom of this. When a raagi sings a raag from Gurbani on a CD is that kachi bani? Or am I getting mixed up about this. Thanks for any insight you can provide.


 
i've never heard anything about CDs being kachi bani...  my understanding is only the words contained in the Guru Granth Sahib, the writings of Guru Gobind Singh ji, and Bhai Gurdas ji's vaars are Gurbani and may be recited in front of Guru Granth Sahib ji.  everything else is kachi bani, and isn't allowed in Guru ji's presence.


the term Kachi Bani comes from the 24th pauree of Anand Sahib:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ 
सतिगुरू बिना होर कची है बाणी ॥ 
Saṯgurū binā hor kacẖī hai baṇī. 
Without the True Guru, other songs are false. 
ਬਾਣੀ ਤ ਕਚੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ 
बाणी त कची सतिगुरू बाझहु होर कची बाणी ॥ 
Baṇī ṯa kacẖī saṯgurū bājẖahu hor kacẖī baṇī. 
The songs are false without the True Guru; all other songs are false. 

ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ॥ 
कहदे कचे सुणदे कचे कचीं आखि वखाणी ॥ 
Kahḏė kacẖė suṇḏė kacẖė kacẖīŉ ākẖ vakẖāṇī. 
The speakers are false, and the listeners are false; those who speak and recite are false. 
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਰਸਨਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ 
हरि हरि नित करहि रसना कहिआ कछू न जाणी ॥ 
Har har niṯ karahi rasnā kahi&shy;ā kacẖẖū na jāṇī. 
They may continually chant, 'Har, Har' with their tongues, but they do not know what they are saying. 

ਚਿਤੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਹਿਰਿ ਲਇਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਬੋਲਨਿ ਪਏ ਰਵਾਣੀ ॥ 
चितु जिन का हिरि लइआ माइआ बोलनि पए रवाणी ॥ 
Cẖiṯ jin kā hir la&shy;i&shy;ā mā&shy;i&shy;ā bolan pa&shy;ė ravāṇī. 
Their consciousness is lured by Maya; they are just reciting mechanically. 

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥੨੪॥ 
कहै नानकु सतिगुरू बाझहु होर कची बाणी ॥२४॥ 
Kahai Nānak saṯgurū bājẖahu hor kacẖī baṇī. ||24|| 
Says Nanak, without the True Guru, other songs are false. ||24|| 

i hope that helps.


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## spnadmin (Nov 29, 2007)

Thanks kelley_kaur ji

What you are saying was my original understanding. Then as other folks spoke about this I began to wonder -- well what is kachi bani anyway. So you have cleared this up for me.


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## clarkejoey (Nov 30, 2007)

Sat nam

Thanks for answering, everyone; On the subject of language/style of shabads, i've actually heard/read both "aye" and "nay" to diversity. I think the official position is "aye" except before the Holy Guru, as kelly kaur ji says.

kdsji, i didn't mean for you to repeat yourself; i agree with your observation, ("majority of sikhs are punjabi so they create article with indian words forgetting That non indian could also be sikhs") but that's exactly the problem!

Truth is, while i find little cultural/linguistic obstacles a bit off-putting, it's only a little bit; i'm here as long as guru will have me. And, as aad ji says, it's only irritating because it feels like slowing me down. I continue to learn a lot just by lurking here... learning what goes and what does not. Coming here i have a sample of sikh diversity... may it grow more diverse (with Guru's grace)!


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## kds1980 (Nov 30, 2007)

> kdsji, i didn't mean for you to repeat yourself; i agree with your observation, ("majority of sikhs are punjabi so they create article with indian words forgetting That non indian could also be sikhs") but that's exactly the problem!



I agree with it but every problem take's its time to solve.If more non punjabi's will embrace sikhism then this problem will gradually solve

also look at the language in which guru granth sahib is written
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The poetry of the Guru Granth is in itself a subject worthy of the highest consideration. The language principally employed is the language of the saints evolved during the medieval period-a language which, allowing for variations, still enjoyed wide currency in Northern India. Its appeal lay in its directness, energy and resilience. Based upon some of the local dialects, it was leavened with expressions from Sanskrit, Prakrit, Persian and Arabic.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So if you beleive that for an average punjabi guru granth sahib is easy to understand then you are wrong.The language of guru granth sahib is complex for a common person.

The influence of culture on religion is not a new thing. in india european christian missionaries spread christianity so the influence western culture is more on them than an average indian.They talk more  in english and wear western clothes compared to an average indian.


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## clarkejoey (Nov 30, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> So if you beleive that for an average punjabi guru granth sahib is easy to understand then you are wrong.The language of guru granth sahib is complex for a common person.


 
I believe no such thing!  As far as i can make out, it is in the nature of spiritual literature to be difficult and ambiguous... probably one reason that folk are always arguing about what God means.



kds1980 said:


> The influence of culture on religion is not a new thing. in india european christian missionaries spread christianity so the influence western culture is more on them than an average indian.They talk more in english and wear western clothes compared to an average indian.


 
What you are describing is so true, and applies to just about every religion. In Judaism, you encounter special terms in Hebrew, in Rasta you find a tendency towards things African - or neo-African - and these things are sometimes doctrine, sometimes tradition, and sometimes just personal preference disguised as doctrine. In my wanderings, the only religion that seems culturally (almost) neutral is Bahai' ... however, this leaves them a little bland, to my tastes.

Perhaps the lesson is that it's important to embrace your faith's origin, while also accepting your own origin. I suspect that the art is in balancing the two.


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## Sikh80 (Nov 30, 2007)

I think the question primarily boils down if we have to make sikhi more popular then what are the measures that are avaialble with us. In india which the fountain head of Sikhi and where more than 90 percent of the population of sikh resides we do not have any specific previlige of being a sikh.
Infact sikhs do not have rights of a normal citizen. Sikhs are not recognised as sikhs as per the constitution of India. This has been stated in some of the posts that I had the chance to go thru. A sikh is treated as any Hindu or jain or any other person practicising faith. 

Of what use is the spreading a religion whose captains [SGPC] are sleeping for last 60 years. No action has been taken. Sikhs with just over 2.50 percent of the population there and are not treated as minoroity class while Muslims who are about 20-25 percent are considered as a minority class. They enjoy the benefits of minority and get their HAj subsidised from the Indian Government. 
Psh, sikhs have nothing much to say except find solutions on the net. Even 'Titler' has been given clean chit for his involvement in 1984 riots, though sikhs know about his role in the riots. Do we have any central body worth the salt to represent us ? No , we do not have anything favoring sikhs.Can you count more than 5 sikhs who have made it to the top here as per international media.

Let us make our house clean first.

Submitted for perusal.


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