# Jot-eh-Joti / ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ : What Is The Essence?



## Ambarsaria (Nov 27, 2012)

It is instructive to note the importance of reference to light in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  In conventional spiritual literature one comes across references to divine light as well.

  There appears direction of the pairing between light in each and every part of creation and the divine light (creator).

  Many times pairing is shown to indicate nearness, there is equality or sameness indicated and it is also mentioned as source and the final destination that is all light universal.

  I list couple of illustrative tuks/lines with reference to full shabads.  The numbers represent how often the words appear in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji per Dr. Thind's tabulation files.  What great contributions from Dr. Thind.


*ਜੋਤਿ (311)  **ਜੋਤਿ* = ਗੁਰ: ਚਾਨਣ, ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ (creator); one light of creator
*Plurality:*  Singular


Notes:
This appears synonymous with phrase "ਗੁਰ ਜੇਤਿ" used by some as well but such is not used as such
Overall the combined words below mentioned by some are not used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji based on what I have discovered,
ਗੁਰਜੋਤਿ; ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ
ਗੁਰੁਜੇਤਿ; ਗੁਰੁ ਜੇਤਿ
ਗੁਰੂਜੋਤਿ; ਗੁਰੂ ਜੋਤਿ

This flags that there is no point of nit-picking on this





> ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
> सभ महि जोति जोति है सोइ ॥
> Sabẖ mėh joṯ joṯ hai so▫e.
> Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light.
> ...


 *ਜੋਤੀ **(100)** ਜੋਤ*ੀ= ਚਾਨਣ, ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ (all creation); all lights; individually in all
*Plurality:*  Singular


Overall the combined words below mentioned by some are not used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji based on what I have discovered,
Notes:
Overall the combined words below mentioned by some are not used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji based on what I have discovered,
ਗੁਰਜੋਤੀ; ਗੁਰਜੋਤੀ
ਗੁਰੁਜੋਤੀ; ਗੁਰੁ ਜੋਤੀ
ਗੁਰੂਜੋਤੀ; ਗੁਰੂ ਜੋਤੀ



This flags that there is no point of nit-picking on these either





> ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
> सभना जीआ का इकु दाता जोती जोति मिलावणहारु ॥
> Sabẖnā jī▫ā kā ik ḏāṯā joṯī joṯ milāvaṇhār.
> There is only the One Giver of all beings. He blends our light with His Light.
> ...


  What role this plays in your thinking, contemplation and understanding?

  The light for me means the following by self and enjoining,


Wisdom
Blessing
Commonness
Oneness
Unity
 I would review my understanding of some shabads to facilitate understanding over time.

What are your thoughts and comments?

  Sat Sri Akal

*Notes:* 

1.  Idea for this thread comes from commentss of Prakash.S.Bagga ji in other threads regarding guidance by ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ - Gur Joti as stated and referenced below.   


> My understanding of Gurbanee is in context of Gur Joti only.So my interpretations are based on consideration of any word being SINGULAR/PLURAL .
> http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani-grammar-vyakaran/39459-gur-gur-oh-guru-3.html#post176308


2.  The word ਜੋਤ/Joet appears once in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  It has much different meaning as to a tethered or stirruped bull.



> ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਮਹਾ ਸ੍ਰਮੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਜੈਸੇ ਬਿਰਖ ਜੰਤੀ ਜੋਤ ॥੧॥
> आठ पहर महा स्रमु पाइआ जैसे बिरख जंती जोत ॥१॥
> Āṯẖ pahar mahā saram pā▫i▫ā jaise birakẖ janṯī joṯ. ||1||
> Twenty-four hours a day, he endures terrible suffering, like the bull, chained to the oil-press. ||1||
> ...


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## Serjinder Singh (Nov 29, 2012)

*Re: Jot-eh - Joti / ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ :  what is the essence?*

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Ambarsaria ji,

I am not much knowledgeable about Gurbani Grammar. However, I have a vague notion that if a noun in Gurbani is singular, feminine , and has a Sihaari vowel just before the last letter then the plural of the word has the Siharee replaced by a Biharee. Thus, word ਜੋਤਿ, a feminine singular becomes a feminine plural ਜੋਤੀ.

Since ideologically, in Sikhism God, Waheguru, is always singular we don’t find word ਜੋਤੀ referring to Waheguru’s light. It always refers to the light in all created beings as plural collection. On the other hand the word ਜੋਤਿ by implication refers to Waheguru. Although depending on the context it may refer to the light in one person but generally refers to Waheguru’s light.
This is my naive feeling that we do find the word  ਗੁਰਜੋਤਿ; ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ in Gurbani because ‘Gur’ refers here to God and ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ refers to the light of one God. But because ਜੋਤੀ refers as a plural to more than one light, therefore it refers to the light in created beings and not to the light in forever singular God. 

For instance, in the following Tuk

Guru Granth Sahib Page 138
ਜਿਚਰੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਤਿਚਰੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਤੂੰ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਵਿਣੁ ਜੋਤੀ ਕੋਈ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਿਹੁ ਦਿਖਾ ਸਿਆਣੀਐ ॥

Guru ji is addressing God and is saying that, “As long as your light (ਜੋਤਿ, singular not the plural ਜੋਤੀ) is there in the created living beings, you speak in the human in the ਜੋਤੀ (plural, many lights in created living beings) . Without your ਜੋਤਿ (singular light) these ਜੋਤੀ (lights in humans) anybody dare show doing any act. (because without His light ਜੋਤਿ people would be dead)..

Invariably, we come across the pharase ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਇ or ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਈ. It is taken to be the merger of human light merging in God’s light. However, the meaning according to above discussion indicates the reverse direction meaning God merges the human light in his light. The doer is God here.who in His grace merges human light in his light.

Thus,
Guru Granth Sahib Page 157
ਨਾਨਕ ਸਦਾ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਿਨ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੨॥੧੯॥ 
O Nanak, those (souls) are ever married  whose ਜੋਤੀ (plural lights of humans) God got allowed to immerse in His ਜੋਤਿ (Singular, God’s Light)

As an aside not word ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ that is a feminine plural formed by replacing the Siharee in word ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ with a biharee to make it a feminine plural as in the case of ਜੋਤਿ and ਜੋਤੀ or in case of ਗਲ, meaning a talk changing to ਗਲੀ a feminine plural. The following lines illustrate the same grammer ideas.

Guru Granth Sahib Page 433
ਗਲੀ ਹਉ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਭੈਣੇ ਕੰਤੁ ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਮੈ ਮਿਲਿਆ ॥੨੩॥​ 
Guru Granth Sahib Page 221
ਜੋਤਿ ਭਈ ਜੋਤੀ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥
(God's) light that exists is immanent in the lights (in living beings)

Guru Granth Sahib Page 413
ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਜੋਤੀ ਤੂ ਜਾਤਿ ॥
You created the world (of) lights in the (human) species.

Guru Granth Sahib Page 424
ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਸਰਿ ਰਹੀ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਈ ॥੫॥​
Your pristine light is spread out in the Joti(in humans) by implanting your Jo(i)t in them

*ਗਲੀ* ਹਉ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਭੈਣੇ ਕੰਤੁ ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਮੈ 
ਮਿਲਿਆ ॥  
Guru Granth Sahib Page 433

Humbly
Serjinder Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 29, 2012)

*Re: Jot-eh - Joti / ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ :  what is the essence?*

Serjinder Singh ji thanks for your post.





Serjinder Singh said:


> ….I am not much knowledgeable about Gurbani Grammar. However, I have a vague notion that if a noun in Gurbani is singular, feminine , and has a Sihaari vowel just before the last letter then the plural of the word has the Siharee replaced by a Biharee. Thus, word ਜੋਤਿ, a feminine singular becomes a feminine plural ਜੋਤੀ.
> 
> Since ideologically, in Sikhism God, Waheguru, is always singular we don’t find word ਜੋਤੀreferring to Waheguru’s light. It always refers to the light in all created beings as plural collection. On the other hand the word ਜੋਤਿby implication refers to Waheguru. Although depending on the context it may refer to the light in one person but generally refers to Waheguru’s light.


_So what is the plan.  Change the gender of _*ਜੋਤਿ* _and make it a feminine plural as _*ਜੋਤੀ*.  

What happens to the oneness of *ਜੋਤਿ*  which is never referred to as a plural in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji!


Serjinder Singh said:


> This is my naive feeling that we do find the word ਗੁਰਜੋਤਿ; ਗੁਰਜੋਤਿin Gurbani because ‘Gur’ refers here to God and ਗੁਰਜੋਤਿ refers to the light of one God. But because ਜੋਤੀrefers as a plural to more than one light, therefore it refers to the light in created beings and not to the light in forever singular God. /QUOTE]_Please provide a direct citation and not a round about.  I could not find it myself as I searched for all these one at a time for all combinations._
> 
> 
> _Rest of your post is extrapolation of your above thesis which is not robust in its presentation so I do not comment._
> ...


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## Luckysingh (Nov 29, 2012)

*Re: Jot-eh - Joti / ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ :  what is the essence?*

Ambarsaria ji,
I believe the comment in below quote, actually holds to Serjinderji's claim, according to my understanding.



> What happens to the oneness of *ਜੋਤਿ* which is never referred to as a plural in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji!
> 
> 
> Serjinder Singh said:
> ...


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 29, 2012)

*Re: Jot-eh - Joti / ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ :  what is the essence?*



Luckysingh said:


> The term ਜੋਤੀ is used quite a few times along with ਜੋਤਿ.
> when mentioning ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ.(joti jyot)
> Here the 'joti' is referring to the human jyot and the light in us created beings.


_Luckysingh ji that is stated in the first post of the thread already and there is no debate about that._

My comment was about the following line in Serjinder Singh ji's post,



> This is my naive feeling that *we do find the word* *(appears once as flagged by Prakash.S.Bagga ji and is reviewed later post here) * *ਗੁਰਜੋਤਿ; ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ* in Gurbani


_The answer is that you do not find these couplet words in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  ਜੋਤਿ already refers to "light of one Gur" hence Guru ji do not use ਗੁਰਜੋਤਿ.  Similarly __ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤੀ is not a couplet in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru ji use __ਜੋਤਿ to represent one creator's light._ _ I assume rest of my post was clear._

The reason such came to my mind was that Prakash.S.Bagga ji stated that he is only guided by "Gur - Joti" in understanding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  The proper statement is "I am guided by *ਜੋਤਿ*" which is of one.  If we do not recognize this then we end up with the feud of singular and plural and all that Jazz as was in the other companion thread.  These are important and at time appearing small things but we need to see Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji crystal clear that it is.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 30, 2012)

One can look at this Quote for the reference of Gurjoti as

ਰਾਮਦਾਸਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਧਰੀ ॥੪॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1409

What is this ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ?

Prakash.S.Bagga


 The above is the answer to this Quote

This is my naive feeling that *we do find the word* *(NO we don't) **ਗੁਰਜੋਤਿ; ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ* in Gurbani


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## Serjinder Singh (Nov 30, 2012)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Dear Ambersaria ji

I am sorry if I could not put my ‘theis’ across. After all it is just a thesis. A thesis is always open to modification, correction or outright rejection. However, if we look at some of the quotes in Gurbani where both words ਜੋਤਿ and ਜੋਤੀ appear one begins to get a sense of the meanings and attributes of the two words.

Thus, on page 545 and on page 846 we have two lines obviously conveying the message but the slight variation helps understand the meaning of the two words.

ਮਿਲਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਜੋਤੀ ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤੀ ਉਦਕੁ ਉਦਕਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ Page 545
_Meaning:  __ਜੋਤੀ __on meeting __ਬ੍ਰਹਮ (__God) gets __ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤੀ __or filled to the brim, the water (__ਉਦਕੁ) __getting merged in water (__ਉਦਕਿ __means ‘In water’)._

ਮਿਲਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤੀ ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤੀ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਭਿ ਰਸ ਭੋਗੋ ॥ Page 846
Meaning by analogy with above line: ਜੋਤੀ(human light or soul)on meeting ਜੋਤਿ (the light of God) gets filled to the brim and enjoys the taste of God’s Naam.

In the second line the words ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਜੋਤੀ has been replaced by ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤੀ thus indicating that ਬ੍ਰਹਮ is similar or equivalent to ਜੋਤਿ.  Thus, making one to believe that ਜੋਤਿ means the light of Brahm or God and  ਜੋਤੀ means the ‘souls’ or lights in human beings. 

This is further apparent from the following lines:


ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਜਾਇ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਧਰਿ ॥Page 790
(God) made the unstruck celestial music play by placing ਜੋਤਿ (His, God’s light) in the ਜੋਤੀ (human souls, human lights)

ਜੋਤੀ ਜਾਤੀ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਾਜੀ ਸੋ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ Page 839
The human lights/souls (ਜੋਤੀ) and living varieties (ਜਾਤੀ) cannot be counted. He who created these only He could know the extent.

ਚੰਦੁ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਦੁਇ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ॥ 
Moon and Sun are an image of the divine light (ਜੋਤਿ)
ਜੋਤੀ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਅਨੂਪੁ ॥੧॥ 
Withing these human/created lights (ਜੋਤੀ) resides unique Brahm (the immanent God)
ਕਰੁ ਰੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ 
O Gyani, express the ideas about Brahm
ਜੋਤੀ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਧਰਿਆ ਪਸਾਰੁ ॥੧॥Page 972
Within the human/created lights is placed the expanse (of the universe)

ਸਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਵਰਤਹਿ ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਤੁਧੈ ਲਾਵਣੀ ॥ Page 1314
Your divine light (ਜੋਤਿ) is working in the human/living lights (ਜੋਤੀ) and you get linked to them through the Guru’s teachings.

ਸਭ ਜੋਤਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਜੋਤੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭੁ ਸਚੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ Page 1314
It is all your ਜੋਤਿ (divine light) within the lights in humans/living creation’s lights (ਜੋਤੀ). All of the expanse of the truth (of creation) is all yours.

The plural ਜੋਤੀ becomes singular only when it is numerically qualified by placing counting word  such as ‘*ਇਕ*’ before it for instance *ਇਕ **ਜੋਤੀ*


Humbly
Serjinder Singh


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## Ambarsaria (Nov 30, 2012)

*Re: Jot-eh-Joti / ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ :  What is the Essence?*

prakash.s.bagga ji thanks for your post.  When I did my searches I am not sure why the only such occurence did not show up.  So I was wrong in my assertion.  However we will review the line further.





prakash.s.bagga said:


> One can look at this Quote for the reference of Gurjoti as
> 
> ਰਾਮਦਾਸਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਧਰੀ ॥੪॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1409
> 
> ...


So the context is that 


> ਰਾਮਦਾਸਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਧਰੀ ॥੪॥
> रामदासि गुरू जग तारन कउ गुर जोति अरजुन माहि धरी ॥४॥
> Rāmḏās gurū jag ṯāran ka▫o gur joṯ arjun māhi ḏẖarī. ||4||
> Guru Raam Daas, to save the world, enshrined the Guru's Light into Guru Arjun. ||4||
> ...



Do you read more into this than that?  Does for you this line imply Guru Arjun Dev ji were God or were declared so by any of the Guru ji or were praised like that for his brilliance?

Sat Sri Akal.


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 30, 2012)

It is nice that at least there is someone to recognise the Gurbanee words as 
references SINGULARor PLURAL.
Still some may not fully agree to this.

Here the meaning of the words  ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ 
 is being considered as ONE LIGHT of GOD and MANY LIGHTS as CREATIONS of GOD.
This I think is very literal meaning.
In fact one should go beyond light/lights to get the true understanding of the
intrisic meanings of these words.One may think that even LIGHT is also creation of the CREATOR. So how correct it would be to consider LIGHT as CREATOR.?

LIGHT is the FORM of the CREATOR as can be understood from this Quote from
Banee Sukhmanee as

JAH JOTi SAROOPEE JOTi SANG SAMAVE" Atapadee 21

At the moment I cant go beyond this .

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Nov 30, 2012)

It is going to be my task as admin (one of many) to carefully monitor the relevance of statements like:




> is being considered as ONE LIGHT of GOD and MANY LIGHTS as CREATIONS of GOD.
> This I think is very literal meaning.
> In fact one should go beyond light/lights to get the true understanding of the
> intrisic meanings of these words.One may think that even LIGHT is also creation of the CREATOR. So how correct it would be to consider LIGHT as CREATOR.?



So far OK as long as the thread does not go around i circles about the point above. But let's make sure that the conversation does not get marooned. Please, all posters consider the thinking behind the grammar and the actual rules of grammar that are being discussed. We don't want to apply a rule for changing singular to plural for one noun family as if that rule applied to all the other noun families. Unfortunately this happened in other threads. So keep the discussion close to the topic. When grammar rules change hidden spiritual meanings known only by the chosen few are usually not the reason for that. Thanks.


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## Luckysingh (Nov 30, 2012)

> Here the meaning of the words ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ
> 
> is being considered as ONE LIGHT of GOD and MANY LIGHTS as CREATIONS of GOD.
> This I think is very literal meaning.
> ...


 
Prakashji, I think this whole jyot and multiple jyots needs to be clarified a little.
I think I understand what you mean and I can follow it, but I'm not sure if everybody else can.

To start off, I think just getting to some basics might be a help-

-Light or jyot, as we know always comes from a 'Source'.
 Now this can be a torch, flashlight, lightbulb or the sun. 
What is important here is that the 'jyot' that is talked about in gurbani and most other religions is the light coming from the 'source'.
-THIS SOURCE is the CREATOR.

Getting back to basic physics, we know that a single beam of clear or white light is actually made up of many colours. (spectrum). These can be seen in a rainbow and also if we pass the ray through a prism.

In the same way, I think you are referring to the source as the creator and a light(jyot) emerging from the source and then this single light breaks down or divides into many lights or colours of creation.
In effect it is saying that the whole of creation emerges from the single jyot, which in turn is from the source known as God.

I can understand this manner of thinking quite well and there is nothing wrong or 'anti' about it in my opinion.

Is this similar to what you are referring to ?
ie. the many jyots of creation that come from the One single Jyot which originates from the source.

If we bear this in mind, then what you said earlier in this thread makes more sense to me !!


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## namjiwankaur (Nov 30, 2012)

Sat Nam _/|\_

Because I've read about near death experiences, there is literally a Divine Light. I know some say that its just all the circuits going haywire when someone dies, but the fact this Light is usually felt as containing a Love so intense no words can describe it...and when brought back to their earthly bodies, many people who have NDEs are transformed because of it.

I see it referred to in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Quran and Sufi teachings, the Bible, paganism...its everywhere.

Nam Jiwan peacesignkaur


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## Luckysingh (Nov 30, 2012)

You are spot on !!!
There is a light that is undescribable.
Infact the only way to describe it is that it invokes feelings of immense love and intuition. 
Just being in it's presence and all of a sudden you know all the answers to any questions!!
One thing is for sure is that it comes from the 'source', but even then, the presence of the light is enough to not even wonder where the source is!!!


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## prakash.s.bagga (Nov 30, 2012)

LUCKYSINGH JI,
I find you are very close to knowing the source.
Try to understand that when this ਜੋਤਿ is refered with GuR as Gur joti then what
it should mean. One may know the CREATOR by knowing its meaning.

You may refer my previous post for its meaning so I dont want to repeat 
here.
Then you can analyse the CREATOR Gur as Gur joti is not FORMLESS
as is understood.

So GuR is CREATOR and THE CREATOR is to be known as GuR JOTi.(A SINGLE WAVE)

These are just my own views as understood by the grace of SatiGuRu ji.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 1, 2012)

LICKY SINGH Ji,
It would be ntresting for you to see thst in Gurbanee there are two references 
for  ਜੋਤਿ as

1...GuR ਜੋਤਿ  and

2...Prabh ਜੋਤਿ

In this context
ਜੋਤਿ as GuR ਜੋਤਿ  is a SINGLE WAVE  being refered as GuROO-GuR



 ਜੋਤਿ  is LIGHT as Prabh ਜੋਤਿ and is being refered as GuRu-GuR

My understanding is that  ਜੋਤਿ  is fully being described in terms of Divine Words.
Gurbanee is all praise (SIFATI SALAHA) for  ਜੋਤਿ only thru its various NAAM.

Just few points more points for sharing.

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Luckysingh (Dec 1, 2012)

I can understand jyot being a form and obviously creator as source is formless.
But doesn't this go back to nirgun and sargun, saying this creator can be both aspects depending how we look.
Guru Gobind Singh ji told Bhai Nand lal ji that guru is 1)shabad 2)nirgun 3)sargun.

i'm not too sure what you mean by the below, but I can follow the rest a little better.


> 1...GuR ਜੋਤਿ and
> 
> 2...Prabh ਜੋਤਿ
> 
> ...


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## Serjinder Singh (Dec 1, 2012)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Let us not all go on mystifying a simple yet crucial concept. ਜੋਤਿ here has got nothing to do with physical light coming from a lamp, torch, Sun etc. It is a convenient *metaphor *used by Guru ji. This refers to the essence of living things, such as life itself in living beings. In humans and other higher animals it means conciousness. In humans it goes to even higher level when they meet Guru as in case of Sikhs the Guru ji's Sabad as in Gurbani and ultimately human conciousness can see Waheguru in everyone and everything and one becomes Jivan Mukat and the source of this 'light' becomes, feels, part of, merges with the source of this 'ਜੋਤਿ '.

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਤਿਸ ਦੈ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ 
ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਸਾਖੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ SGGS page 13 (Keertan Sohila)
It is the light in all, it is the 'same' light. From that everyone gets enlightened. Through presense of Guru (the awareness of) this light becomes apparent.

Humbly
Serjinder Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 1, 2012)

*Re: Jot-eh-Joti / ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ :  What is the Essence?*



Serjinder Singh said:


> Waheguru ji ka khalsa
> Waheguru ji ki fateh
> 
> Let us not all go on mystifying a simple yet crucial concept. ਜੋਤਿ here has got nothing to do with physical light coming from a lamp, torch, Sun etc. It is a convenient *metaphor *used by Guru ji. This refers to the essence of living things, such as life itself in living beings. In humans and other higher animals it means conciousness. In humans it goes to even higher level when they meet Guru as in case of Sikhs the Guru ji's Sabad as in Gurbani and ultimately human conciousness can see Waheguru in everyone and everything and one becomes Jivan Mukat and the source of this 'light' becomes, feels, part of, merges with the source of this 'ਜੋਤਿ '.
> ...


 
I fully agree with your views that the concept is SIMPLE and yet CRUCIAL.
But Metaphor is there for understanding this simple and crucial concept only.
isnt it important that this metaphor has been used with its Singular and Plural characers both separately and together also.?
I think ultimately it is important to understand what this metaphor is actually pointing to.

One more point I intend to share with your self We have considered the word JOTiਜੋਤਿ   as SINGULAR and JOT-ee ਜੋਤੀ as PLURAL. I fully agree to these views

But it needs review how the word JOT-ee(PLURAL) ਜੋਤੀ  can be used for individual human light. One can find that individual Human light is to be refered as  ਜੋਤਿ JOTi .(SINGULAR).
i am a bit confused with this interpretation I look from your goodself 
some more clarity in application of these words .

Prakash.s.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 1, 2012)

*Re: Jot-eh-Joti / ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ :  What is the Essence?*



Luckysingh said:


> I can understand jyot being a form and obviously creator as source is formless.
> But doesn't this go back to nirgun and sargun, saying this creator can be both aspects depending how we look.
> Guru Gobind Singh ji told Bhai Nand lal ji that guru is 1)shabad 2)nirgun 3)sargun.
> 
> i'm not too sure what you mean by the below, but I can follow the rest a little better.


 
LUCKY SINGH Ji,
When JOTi itself is CREATOR then I fail to understand your this view that
"obviously creator as source is formless

Can you pl clarify what should I mean for Creator as Source? Source of what?

If I am not mistaken you are considering CREATOR as SOURCE of JOTi
but it is not so.

I think you can ask for SOURCE of the CREATOR that is surely FORMLESS>

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## Serjinder Singh (Dec 1, 2012)

Prakash.s.Bagga

You wrote: "But it needs review how the word JOT-ee(PLURAL) ਜੋਤੀ can be used for individual human light. One can find that individual Human light is to be refered as ਜੋਤਿ JOTi .(SINGULAR).
i am a bit confused with this interpretation I look from your goodself 
some more clarity in application of these words "

If you look at the following lines from Sohila 
ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਤਿਸ ਦੈ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਸਾਖੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ 
We can see the first three words "ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ". Here the word "ਜੋਤਿ" refers to the light in the human beings considering the case of each person individually, hence, the grammatical 'number' s Singular. The same is the case for God being singular the word "ਜੋਤਿ" appears in ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ meaning the light in humans is the 'light that is same'. So, when humans are referred to as a single human being the word used for light in 'a human' is ਜੋਤਿ, however when bani is referring to many or all human beings the word is the one for plural lights, ie Jotee ਜੋਤੀ. So, the conclusion is that the two forms of the word do not imply that ਜੋਤਿ means God's light _per se_ and that ਜੋਤੀ means the light in humans. But the two forms are associated to the grammatic number of the object to which the word for light refers. For a singular object it is "ਜੋਤਿ" and for a plural object it is  "ਜੋਤੀ". It is as simple as that.

Humbly
Serjinder Singh


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 1, 2012)

SERJINDER SINGH Ji,

But the two forms are associated to the grammatic number of the object to which the word for light refers. For a singular object it is "ਜੋਤਿ" and for a plural object it is "ਜੋਤੀ". It is as simple as that.


You are absolutely correct.
 If the OBJECT is as given in the Quote as
ਗੁਰ ਸਾਖੀ ਜੋਤਿ  then what should be ਜੋਤਿ" and "ਜੋਤੀ

I look forward to your response,
Prakash.S.Bagga


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 1, 2012)

SPNADMIN Ji,
I am sorry to assert that you have wronly deleted my message as I asked for some additional views on that.
If this is going to be the attitude then there is no point of being here.
It requires rethinking at your end. I hope you shall do that.
With regards

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## namjiwankaur (Dec 1, 2012)

Prakash ji

Are we all in agreement that Light/light is formless?  I think its as formless.  But I'm not sure what  scientists & other mystics perspectives might be on that?

peacesign  Nam Jiwan icecreamkauricecreammunda


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## prakash.s.bagga (Dec 1, 2012)

*Re: Jot-eh-Joti / ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ :  What is the Essence?*



namji{censored}aur said:


> Prakash ji
> 
> Are we all in agreement that Light/light is formless? I think its as formless. But I'm not sure what scientists & other mystics perspectives might be on that?
> 
> peacesign Nam Jiwan icecreamkauricecreammunda


 
As an Engineer I do understand light is FORMLESS in reference of visible Forms what we see. 
But light has its own form too,that is what is to be understood.In reference of its own form light has specific form as waves..
As the meaning of JOTi is not light in its true sense.This word is the refernce for A WAVE .
Since CREATOR is a wave,every thing is created by these waves and that is why this wave is an inherent content of every thing of the Universe.
There is a close relationship between Physics and metaphysics of Divine words in context of Wave/waves.

In fact the overall ignorance of the knowledge of GurJOTi is the Basic Cause of all deviations in interpretation and understanding of Gurbanee messages.

That is all I can put forward ,may or may not be liked .I am only sicere to the messages of my GuRu as blessed.

This may be my last post .

With regards

Prakash.S.Bagga


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## spnadmin (Dec 1, 2012)

*Re: Jot-eh-Joti / ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ :  What is the Essence?*



prakash.s.bagga said:


> SPNADMIN Ji,
> I am sorry to assert that you have wronly deleted my message as I asked for some additional views on that.
> If this is going to be the attitude then there is no point of being here.
> It requires rethinking at your end. I hope you shall do that.
> ...



This will be the course of action taken if any admin or moderator deems that comments will be taking the thread in circles. If these actions continue, then further action will be taken without notice. Do not modify or edit these comments in any way. spnadmin

Here is an example of what I am talking about. " Since CREATOR is a wave,every thing is created by these waves and that is why this wave is an inherent content of every thing of the Universe.
There is a close relationship between Physics and metaphysics of Divine words in context of Wave/waves.

In fact the overall ignorance of the knowledge of GurJOTi is the Basic Cause of all deviations in interpretation and understanding of Gurbanee messages." (by prakash s. bagga). 

Any reader who has been thinking at this point in the thread, and other notable threads, "Gee, I am confused," or "I was following this discussion until...." should pat himself/herself on the back. You are right. You are confused. But you are not uninformed, you are not stupid. You are confused because what you are reading is completely unconnected to the purpose of the thread.

Veer ji, you have been connecting grammar to physics and physics to metaphysics. Grace period has expired.


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## Luckysingh (Dec 1, 2012)

Serjinder ji,
In the ''sab mai jyot, jyot hai soee'' reference quoted, I can kind of see what you are saying. However, I see it  referred to as God's light, because it means ' The light (light of God) is within all, and you(god) are the light'

I have come to the conclusion where I can agree with Prakashji on this thread and matter. 
Likewise, I also find it difficult to explain this understanding. It's like ''you either see it with ease, or you don't !!' -sadly, there is no easier way for me to put it.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Dec 1, 2012)

I see the concept of ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ as again a way of Guru propagating Gurmat.

We see the Shabad as saying the Akaal Purakh has means to absorb the plural ਜੋਤੀ of ours into His Primal ਜੋਤਿ.

But I see Shabad as talking of ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ both are one. While we are thinking they could be one by power of Akaal Purakh (something he would do, say after 20 years).

For Akaal means timeless, if our ਜੋਤੀ is not part of the ਜੋਤਿ now, but could be at some other time, this means the Akaal is operating with respect to time. But He is not. Thus I believe what we see as ਜੋਤੀ is all his ਜੋਤਿ.

There is a need for theory of everything in science. Akaal Purakh is theory of everything for life.


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## Luckysingh (Dec 1, 2012)

*Re: Jot-eh-Joti / ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ :  What is the Essence?*



Kanwaljit Singh said:


> I see the concept of ਜੋਤਿ – ਜੋਤੀ as again a way of Guru propagating Gurmat.
> 
> We see the Shabad as saying the Akaal Purakh has means to absorb the plural ਜੋਤੀ of ours into His Primal ਜੋਤਿ.
> 
> ...


 
Very Good point.
I see exactly what you are saying and I would normally say similar.
However, in this instance I have somehow began to see it from a much different angle.
I would say that ਜੋਤਿ is timeless without doubt, but ਜੋਤੀ is not, as it is confined to us.

According to many shabads and tuks, ਜੋਤੀ is not part of ਜੋਤਿ as there are mentions of it merging once one is gurmukh or when the Lord is found through the shabad...etc.. There are quite a lot of these mentions or very similar.


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## Kanwaljit.Singh (Dec 1, 2012)

Yes because time is also part of the Maya, don't you think? And we are existing as you and me in Maya, but in reality we are One. We merge when we are free of the illusion.


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## Luckysingh (Dec 1, 2012)

That's right, we are bound by the boundaries of time and feelings.

Therefore most of what we experience is itself the illusion.
This includes the ਜੋਤੀ, and when one can rise above these boundaries and be free from them, then your consciousness merges with the supreme conscious, your ਜੋਤੀ merges with the God ਜੋਤਿ and you become him and he is then you.- this is the complete immersion whereby no identity of you ie.. the part of you that makes you, remains.

Thereofore, it is important to distinguish the difference of our light and his or 'the' light.

Imagine, you being the drop in an ocean.
You must remember that the drop in the ocean becomes the ocean but it is NOT the ocean!


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