# Who Are The Sikhs, Really ?



## Original (Feb 7, 2016)

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, is unquestionably the nucleus of the Sikh Religion. It's  1430 pages written in Gurmukhi Language forms the very basis of its existence. But, what exactly is this language ?

Language is a powerful piece of social technology. It conveys our thoughts as coded puffs of air [pad in Gurmukhi for the formation of  shabd, meaning, sound] or dozens of drawn symbols, to be decoded by someone else. It can move information about the past, present, future and beyond, formalise ideas, trigger action, persuade and much more.

Today, there are several thousands of such codes spoken around the world. All human societies have language, and no language is “better” than any other; all can communicate the full range of human experience. Those of us who study human evolution, this incredible universality suggests that our species has had language right from when Homo sapiens left Africa and migrated to the rest of the world.

Our species arrived from around the Middle East and brought with them a language, the language that we're trying to decode and interpret. What was that language, the developed form of which underpins Sikhi's  core fundamentals ? How often has that question been asked ?

We may know our parents, our grand parents, even our great grand parents, not far beyond that, for most of us the trail begins to disappear into thin air. But each one of us carries a message from our ancestors in every cell of our body. It is in our DNA, the genetic material that is handed down from generation to generation. The trail of our ancient past is written within the DNA, and not only our histories as individuals but the whole history of the human race.

To understand Sikhism and the language of its scriptures, knowledge of human exodus as social beings is important.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 7, 2016)

Sikhs have a root too deep and Guru Nanak ji created an orchard of Sikhism and a collection that gave it a critical mass and the name of Sikhism sprang. For example Baba Farid ji from 1173 to 1265. Punjabi what a beautiful language and oh so old too.






The following is not from SGGSJ but it is from one of the contributor's, Kabir ji (before Guru Nanak Dev ji's time) and beautiful displays Kabir ji's awareness and thinking processes,

Listen particularly at 30 minutes and 57 seconds, seeing all as one and one in all;






Enjoy.

Sat Sri Akal


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## Original (Feb 7, 2016)

Ambarsaria said:


> Sikhs have a root too deep


...what, deep as 1469 or deeper ?


Ambarsaria said:


> Guru Nanak ji created an orchard of Sikhism


...was the word of God non-existent before Guru Nanak ? Clearly, the name Nanak is synonymous with the word God, no ? And, Sikhism minus willy nilly [political] is representative of that God ?


Ambarsaria said:


> and a collection that gave it a critical mass


..you mean "gurbani" ? And, yes, the first writer was Baba Ji Farid. The pattern of their thought [Farid, Ravidas, Kabir and Nanak] was inconsistent with the leading religions of their time.


Ambarsaria said:


> and the name of Sikhism sprang.


...evolved because it was* "necessary"*. Contemporary thought had forgotten the "word" of God with their wishy washy ideals. Nanak and the firm were the "renaissance" [theologians] of the God that stood from the crack of dawn and beyond - satnam.


Ambarsaria said:


> Punjabi what a beautiful language


...language of love, veer ji ! Get Swarn Singh to give you few home made lyrics - spun off his desi tavva. Or, better still, check out page 658 SGGSJ [Ravidas n Pea{censored}] to appreciate the real deal of the simpletons of our motherland.
To look through the lens [English as a medium] of your neighbour at your own house, you will see the house alright, but not the home.


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## Parma (Feb 7, 2016)

Say no to drugs that's all I can advise. The DNA is kind of simple really after advise and counciling for your inadequacy it falls down to one simple root read carefully= Don Not an Arshole!  Hope that helps !


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## Joginder Singh Foley (Feb 7, 2016)

Hmm Who are the Sikhs Punjabis or all those who where not born into Sikhi but who accepted the way of Guruji like this mad ex-alcoholic Irishman and all others who accepted the way of the Gurus anyway


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## Parma (Feb 7, 2016)

Joginder Singh Foley said:


> Hmm Who are the Sikhs Punjabis or all those who where not born into Sikhi but who accepted the way of Guruji like this mad ex-alcoholic Irishman and all others who accepted the way of the Gurus anyway



I asked this question to a councillor once not a shrink but a small time politician I guess we call them in the UK. I asked who am I? To who are you? The response was silence. Sometimes it's the only response to give and let nature take its course. I know who I am that is something I don't need to ask but only to waheguru but I will add this we could have all picked the easiest route but we're did it get you!


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## Inderjeet Kaur (Feb 7, 2016)

I suppose a starting point could be the official definition of a Sikh from the Sikh Rehat Maryada.

Chapter I - Sikh Defined
Article I – Definition of Sikh
Any human being who faithfully believes in:
• One Immortal Being
•
Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Dev to Guru Gobind Singh
•
The Guru Granth Sahib
• The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus
• The baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who
does not owe allegiance to any
other religion, is a Sikh​Of course, this leaves out a whole lot of things most of us believe vital to being a Sikh. There is no mention of gurudwara, kakkars, saadh sangat, no langar or chardi kala. No nitnem, no amrit vela, no three pillars. Still, this is the official definition and needs to be considered.

When I say I am a Sikh, I am saying something that goes far beyond this definition. I am saying that I try to be a certain type of person, one who champions justice, mercy, courage, kindness, and other virtues on both an individual and societal level. I want to be the living embodiment of chardi kala, never giving up, never giving in, managaing to keep a smile on my attitude no matter what happens. In short, I'm trying to be one of the Good Guys.


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## Original (Feb 8, 2016)

Thank you Inderjeet Kaur !


Inderjeet Kaur said:


> I suppose a starting point could be the official definition of a Sikh from the Sikh Rehat Maryada.


...yes of course, that would be the particular [meaning Sikh as per SRM], but what of the general from whence it came ?


Inderjeet Kaur said:


> Of course, this leaves out a whole lot of things most of us believe vital to being a Sikh.


I agree, and...indeed, particulary our traits [virtues] as belonging to a particular social group [Punjabis]. But surely, these traits [courage, justice, etc] which you mention below outdate SRM Sikh doesn't it, for they are human ? If that'd be correct then who were the Sikhs before Nanak came on to the scene ?


Inderjeet Kaur said:


> There is no mention of gurudwara, kakkars, saadh sangat, no langar or chardi kala. No nitnem, no amrit vela, no three pillars. Still, this is the official definition and needs to be considered.


...this'd be institutional Sikhi, or the formal Sikhi, followed usually by substantative and yes Inderjeet Kaur, I wholly soley agree with you. Definitely, needs tweaking in line with evolution. The likes of HKJ and Co need to be heard to strike the right balance.


Inderjeet Kaur said:


> When I say I am a Sikh, I am saying something that goes far beyond this definition. I am saying that I try to be a certain type of person, one who champions justice, mercy, courage, kindness, and other virtues on both an individual and societal level.


...precisely ! Bit of you pre-existed SRM, what was that bit, what was that society, culture, environment that fostered such ideals ? Did it evolve here on planet Earth or dropped out of space ?


Inderjeet Kaur said:


> I want to be the living embodiment of chardi kala, never giving up, never giving in, managaing to keep a smile on my attitude no matter what happens. In short, I'm trying to be one of the Good Guys.


...that is the forged you in the fire of Sikhism !

Enjoyed, like always, your write-up !


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## Joginder Singh Foley (Feb 8, 2016)

Parma said:


> Say no to drugs that's all I can advise. The DNA is kind of simple really after advise and counciling for your inadequacy it falls down to one simple root read carefully= Don Not an Arshole!  Hope that helps !




The other thing any Sikh should avoid is alcohol for so many reasons alcohol is so bad take it from me I have been there alcohol abuse/dependancy is not pretty for either Sikh or non-Sikh


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## Parma (Feb 8, 2016)

Joginder Singh Foley said:


> The other thing any Sikh should avoid is alcohol for so many reasons alcohol is so bad take it from me I have been there alcohol abuse/dependancy is not pretty for either Sikh or non-Sikh



Funnily enough I don't drink alcohol. Not much anyway; you cannot really call me a drinker I found the taste bitter and off putting. If I ever have it has been to associate with company but even then I normally pick soft drinks. In the past I did binge drink on a few occasions being young and was sick but that's just apart of growing up the rest is the fact that I don't trust people anymore when it comes to drinking socially people spike drinks and all sorts these days to ruin your health an eliminate social competition which is worser then the drink itself but as always you live and learn that not everyone you meet has your best intentions all I can say is I have been saved by waheguru ji ki kirpa. I appreciate and thank you for the concern shown. I feel privileged to receive your guidance as a Sikh I feel if I'm not learning from either my elders or youngsters then really I'm not being a Sikh at all there is some people that laugh at common sense comments it makes me feel proud that people in social communities still care enough to make an effort. God bless you. Also could you rely upon a message to tell the pundit to leave me alone and there's me being nice to them. Trying to get other's to pay for others ladies and children the depths our societies go too. A better standard of social care whatever. They messed up on that agenda with me thankfully I hate them type of people and I'm live an direct. Had enough of them types simple as that. Help people get work but the scheming one's better stay away if I haven't been enough of a lesson for you already; Pundits learn a lesson think differently. There probably is decent one's out there but its not my type of subject. I just respect elders in a community regardless of backgrounds and scenarios that's all. You could offer me a thousand offers what's the point if the one who is on offer is not the one you keep I like taking the {censored} cus you messed with my health and I didn't deserve it. And there all happy banging the same heads together. Burn in hell.


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## Ambarsaria (Feb 8, 2016)

Original ji you posed;





Original said:


> ...what, deep as 1469 or deeper ?.


For me there is no question that Sikhism germination happened way before 1469. The actual pruning, grafting a proper Sikh quality into itand the nurturing; of course one can clearly establish with Guru Nanak Dev ji's birth in 1469. Baba Farid ji, Bhagat Kabir ji were before Guru Nanak Dev ji specially Baba Farid ji being around 1100-1200 which is about three hundred years earlier than the birth of Guru Nanak ji.

Going further along the thread Inderjeet Kaur ji referred to Sikh Rehat Maryada (SRM). I was tempted to so answer but to develop the discourse or philosophical discussion I opted to approach it differently. If one were to strictly apply SRM in retroactive way, then the contributors like Baba Farid ji definitely were not compliant. I understand that our Guru ji's only selected writings from Baba Farid ji, Bhagat Kabir ji, and others which they believed were in reflection of what is a Sikh. So SGGSJ is our leader, teacher and forever a source of who is a Sikh and SRM institutionalizes how a Sikh is and how such a Sikh operates.

Sat Sri Akal.


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## Original (Feb 8, 2016)

Ambarsaria said:


> For me there is no question that Sikhism germination happened way before 1469.


I agree with you Sir ! Look at the following..ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਜੇ ਕਰਿ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਮੰਨੀਐ ਸਭ ਤੈ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਗੋਹੇ ਅਤੈ ਲਕੜੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀੜਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਜੇਤੇ ਦਾਣੇ ਅੰਨ ਕੇ ਜੀਆ ਬਾਝੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ *ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥* ਸੂਤਕੁ ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਪਵੈ ਰਸੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਏਵ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਉਤਾਰੇ ਧੋਇ ॥੧ P472, SGGSJ]...*what does that tell you*...? Isn't that what Charles Darwin's TOE says that life started in water [bold Gurmukhi] ? Point being, God has been around for yonks, Nanak caught him/her in Khalsa Saroop. So really, the "real" Sikh [student] has been around for a lot longer than is, otherwise believed. Who was he/she in the beginning, and what language did he/she speak ?


Ambarsaria said:


> The actual pruning, grafting a proper Sikh quality into itand the nurturing; of course one can clearly establish with Guru Nanak Dev ji's birth in 1469.


confirmed !


Ambarsaria said:


> Baba Farid ji, Bhagat Kabir ji were before Guru Nanak Dev ji specially Baba Farid ji being around 1100-1200 which is about three hundred years earlier than the birth of Guru Nanak ji.


confirmed !


Ambarsaria said:


> Going further along the thread Inderjeet Kaur ji referred to Sikh Rehat Maryada (SRM). I was tempted to so answer but to develop the discourse or philosophical discussion I opted to approach it differently.


..speak your heart ! Nanak's sat is singular - let's hear it; after all, the salvation of the soul lays within it !


Ambarsaria said:


> If one were to strictly apply SRM in retroactive way, then the contributors like Baba Farid ji definitely were not compliant.


...this would deny evolution to work its wonders. Don't forget we're en route to perfection. What Baba Farid Ji lacked, Nanak possessed - such is evolution, perfecting us in all aspects of the word "perfection".


Ambarsaria said:


> I understand that our Guru ji's only selected writings from Baba Farid ji, Bhagat Kabir ji, and others which they believed were in reflection of what is a Sikh.


...they selected the juicy bits to show the consistency of their own belief n value !


Ambarsaria said:


> So SGGSJ is our leader


...it is the "form" God ! You n I can see it with the shades of "belief", ordinary Joe Public may see it as a book only, albeit, Holy !



Ambarsaria said:


> teacher and forever a source of who is a Sikh


...It is "who" we are my dear brother ! Both the physical n the spiritual, the Kaur n the Singh - our DNA as a particular social group is encapsulated in SGGSJ. I'll save it for another time an interesting tale when I represented Saheed Bhagat Singh's nephew in a legal matter [UK]. The "roots" bit is beautiful ! 


Ambarsaria said:


> SRM institutionalizes how a Sikh is and how such a Sikh operates.


...should one surrender freedom on account of having found the ultimate? Nanak was very liberal, he left to the individual to find him/herself first before finding God. That is to say, without hell there could be no heaven. Go n play....Waheguru will find you when you're ready. p1412 SGGSJ makes it clear that if you are now ready to play the game of love with me, there is no going back. Sikh is the final embodiment of the spiritual being in a human form.

Goodnight Sir -


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## Parma (Feb 9, 2016)

Without getting filthy with my wordings this is definitely one P that you haven't conquered. Mutual respect and relationships only please to proceed with me thank you. Disgraceful.


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## Original (Feb 9, 2016)

Parma Ji,

I'm sorry if I've struck the wrong chord ! I must confess of the difficulty I'm having in trying to make sense of what you're trying to say. Please forgive me.

As the initiator of the thread the idea is to build a coherent, consistent and a reliable account of our ancenstral past. I feel, to know God one must know the self and the self without knowledge of its ancestral past is like a boat without a ruder, getting tossed all over the place.

You can ask almost anyone about controversial topics and they’ll be happy to give you an opinion, backed of course, by arguments and facts. Moreover, anyone can take a stand, and almost everyone can argue their viewpoint, but not all come with an open mind.  This perhaps might be because of their views and opinions are deep rooted in some philosophical or a particular system of belief. Our system [Sikh n 3 pillars] however, is founded on the freedom of everything within the confines of a legal and moral system and regulated by sober conscience, which is underpinned by a set of hard-core values. We act on our instincts, whereas, sizeable population do so on instruction and prescription. I believe that we are obligated to strive for something more subtle, more meaningful and completely harmonious. And, in that we ought to carefully examine all sides of an issue, listen attentively to the arguments being made, and to come to a true understanding of how different people see the issues and what it means to them. Then, and only then, can we form an educated position and lead boldly in that direction, all the while demonstrating empathy for those with opposing views.

I bid you farewell !

Good day Sir -


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## Parma (Feb 9, 2016)

Thank you for that and I bid you farewell! God bless.


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