# Eh Janam Tumhare Lekhe



## Astroboy

*At the request of respected NamJap ji, 
this thread was started to keep a spot to
 discuss how the Bhagats of
 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj
 understand the cycle of life and death. 
aad0002*




> "Bahut janam bicherie thei madho- eh janam tumerei lekhei"- (Someone- please give me the page number from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji).


Page 694, Line 8
ਬਹੁਤ ਜਨਮ ਬਿਛੁਰੇ ਥੇ ਮਾਧਉ ਇਹੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ਲੇਖੇ ॥
Bahuṯ janam bicẖẖure the māḏẖa▫o ih janam ṯumĥāre lekẖe.
For so many incarnations, I have been separated from You, Lord; I dedicate this life to You.
*Devotee Ravidas*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


[/SIZE]





> When the opportunity arises, we will talk about mukti one day because a Sikh is not interested in eternity-mukti either.


Page 534, Line 4
ਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲਾਰੇ ॥
Rāj na cẖāha▫o mukaṯ na cẖāha▫o man parīṯ cẖaran kamlāre.
I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation*.* My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet.
*Guru Arjan Dev*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


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## Tejwant Singh

*Re: Gurbani Contemplation - Selok Bhagat Kabir Ji*



namjap said:


> Page 694, Line 8
> ਬਹੁਤ ਜਨਮ ਬਿਛੁਰੇ ਥੇ ਮਾਧਉ ਇਹੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ਲੇਖੇ ॥
> Bahuṯ janam bicẖẖure the māḏẖa▫o ih janam ṯumĥāre lekẖe.
> For so many incarnations, I have been separated from You, Lord; I dedicate this life to You.
> *Devotee Ravidas* - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [size=-1]Page 534, Line 4
> ਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲਾਰੇ ॥
> Rāj na cẖāha▫o mukaṯ na cẖāha▫o man parīṯ cẖaran kamlāre.
> I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation*.* My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet.
> *Guru Arjan Dev* - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


 
Santokh ji,

Thanks for being my lifevest. I was drowning in the salty waters.

I would love the Gurbani lovers to share their views on the above 2 .

Regards

Tejwant Singh


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## Astroboy

*Re: Gurbani Contemplation - Selok Bhagat Kabir Ji*

You may open a new thread for that, here let's not deviate from Kabir Ji de Selok.

I have good news for you and everyone too. SPN is working hard to make available a downloadable software called Shabad Guru Explorer. It will be available soon.
This means, using it, you can search any shabad by typing/keying in the initials. For e.g. if you want to find ਬਹੁਤ ਜਨਮ ਬਿਛੁਰੇ ਥੇ ਮਾਧਉ ਇਹੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ਲੇਖੇ ॥ just key in : bjbtmejtl or even a portion of it like ejtl for ਇਹੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ਲੇਖੇ

*I would like to request Aad Ji to consider moving post # 75, 76 and 77 to a new thread. *


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## spnadmin

*Re: Gurbani Contemplation - Selok Bhagat Kabir Ji*

Nam Jap ji

I think in Gurmat Vichaar it is OK to have a Punjabi thread title, instead of English. Everyone would either know the tuk or they would have the motivation to look it up. Is this OK as a title with you? Sat Nam.


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## Astroboy

> Santokh ji,
> 
> Thanks for being my lifevest. I was drowning in the salty waters.
> 
> I would love the Gurbani lovers to share their views on the above 2 .
> 
> Regards
> 
> Tejwant Singh


OK.

ਕਾਰਨ ਕਵਨ ਅਬੋਲ ॥ 
Bhagat Ravidas asked the Lord for the reason why he was silent ? Was he expecting human language reply from the Lord who is Lord, God and Creator of the whole universe with its extensive life forms. Would God choose a particular fashion and style to speak with his Creatures?


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## Astroboy

JMHO, I think God speaks to all living creatures in the most basic language (sound current) which can be felt by inner senses (call it inner ears) and such sound can be that of insects during the night.

Do you hear God speak to you ?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

imho..God speaks through his creation.
Once Guru Gobind Singh Ji had a devout Sikh who visited him for "Darshan". He stood in front of GGS and Bowed...GGS told him..I will give you "Darshan" as you have requested. He was puzzled...what is Guru Ji talking baout..here I an front of Guru Ji, having his darshan...but he is saying..Go back to your village I will give you the Darshan you have been requesting in each prayer.. He was a Vaid..village doctor. and he returned to his village.
One day he had a visit from a poor child in the village far away.... the poor child was in rags and he had been walking for many days to reach the doctor's village. His mother was very sick and lay dying. He wanted the doctor to follow him immediately. It was raining heavily and the night was stormy and cold. Just then a naukar of a rich man came and told the doctor his Master was sick and wanted him to come immediately. The doctor followed the naukar.
Many months later after waiting in vain for Guru Ji to come to his village and give him the darshan GGS promised....the doctor then travelled to Anandpur. When he reached Guru Jis darbar...he asked Guru Ji..I waited but you didnt come...But I did come...and I asked you to follow me..but in your midn you thought..its raining, this chidl is poor..so no hope of any thing...so you followed the rich mans naukar...and left ME crying..all my cries didnt reach your ehart..YOU DIDNT HEAR ME CALLING !!

SO YES..I have heard GURU Ji many times...the Creator too...BUT i havent heard any special Naad..or sounds or whispers - neither awake or sleeping or in my dreams...
Once I was in a shop to buy my duaghter new shoes for teh coming school year....and i saw a rather shabby tamil girl hanging around..the shop owner was trying to shoo her away..all she wanted was for soemone's old shoes..because a lot of children straight from school were with their parents trying on new shoes and leaving their old shoes in the rubbish bin...suddenly I heard Guru Ji loud and clear..He just wanted a pair of school shoes...just RM 12/= what a cheap bargain...I heard Guru Ji for just RM 12 !! Someone i know didnt hear a peep even after sponsoring a RM 2000 Akahnd Paath in the Gurdwara !! After that I was very careful and kept my ears peeled..for the whispers of Guru Ji...and YES i heard him many many times since....and for quite cheap financial outlay too..


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## lalihayer

> ਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲਾਰੇ ॥
> I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation. My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet.
> Guru Arjan Dev


Such a selfless love! Not even desire for liberation!
This surely is a big step towards being one with Beloved.


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## Tejwant Singh

The time when anything that makes ourselves measure our chracter against all odds is the time when Ik Ong Kaar within echoes in our thoughts,whispers in our inner ears and makes us reason with the help of the tools we have obtained through Gurmat ideals, so that we are able to make the right decision based on Miri- Piri.

Ik Ong Kaar is the inner voice activated Creative Energy.

Tejwant Singh


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## Tejwant Singh

lalihayer said:


> Such a selfless love! Not even desire for liberation!
> This surely is a big step towards being one with Beloved.


 

Lalihayer ji,

Guru Fateh.

It is amazing indeed. Like this, every moment becomes eternal- wrapped with mukti-. 

Secondly come to think of it, why would one want to liberate- detach oneself from Ik Ong Kaar, the connection one has seeked and tried to be connected with for all his/her life?

Tejwant Singh


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## vsgrewal48895

ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਚੰਦ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਚਕੋਰਾ ॥ਮਾਧਵੇ ਤੁਮ ਨ ਤੋਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਤੋਰਹਿ ॥ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਤੋਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਹਿ ॥ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਦੀਵਰਾ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਬਾਤੀ ॥ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਜਾਤੀ ॥ਸਾਚੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰੀ ॥ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਿ ਅਵਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੋਰੀ ॥ ਜਹ ਜਹ ਜਾਉ ਤਹਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ਤੁਮ ਸੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥ਤੁਮਰੇ ਭਜਨ ਕਟਹਿ ਜਮ ਫਾਂਸਾ ॥ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸਾ ॥

_Jaou Tum Girivar Taou Ham Moraa, Jaou Tum Chand Taou Ham Bha-ay Hai Chakoraa. MaaDhvay Tum Na Torahu Taou Ham Nahee Toreh, Tum Si-o Tor Kavan Si-o Joreh. Jaou Tum Deevraa Taou Ham Baatee, Jaou Tum Tirath Taou Ham Jaatee. Saachee Pareet Ham Tum Si-o Joree, Tum Si-o Jor Avar Sang Toree. Jeh Jeh Jaa-ou Tahaa Tayree Sayvaa. Tum So Thaakur Aour Na Dayvaa. Tumray Bhajan Kateh Jam FaaNsaa, Bhagat Hayt Gaavai Ravidaasaa._

If You are the mountain, God, then I am the pea{censored}. If You are the moon, then I am the partridge in love with it. O God, if You will not break with me, then I will not break with You. For, if I were to break with You, with who would I then join? If You are the lamp, then I am the wick. If You are the sacred place of pilgrimage, then I am the pilgrim. I am joined in true love with You, God. I am joined with You, and I have broken with all others. Wherever I go, there I serve You. There is no other Master than You, O Divine God. Meditating, vibrating upon You, the noose of death is cut away. To attain devotional worship, Ravi Das sings to You, God. -----Ravidas, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 658

Virinder


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## pk70

vsgrewal48895 said:


> ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਚੰਦ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਚਕੋਰਾ ॥ਮਾਧਵੇ ਤੁਮ ਨ ਤੋਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਤੋਰਹਿ ॥ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਤੋਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਹਿ ॥ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਦੀਵਰਾ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਬਾਤੀ ॥ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਜਾਤੀ ॥ਸਾਚੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰੀ ॥ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਿ ਅਵਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੋਰੀ ॥ ਜਹ ਜਹ ਜਾਉ ਤਹਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ਤੁਮ ਸੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥ਤੁਮਰੇ ਭਜਨ ਕਟਹਿ ਜਮ ਫਾਂਸਾ ॥ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸਾ ॥
> 
> _Jaou Tum Girivar Taou Ham Moraa, Jaou Tum Chand Taou Ham Bha-ay Hai Chakoraa. MaaDhvay Tum Na Torahu Taou Ham Nahee Toreh, Tum Si-o Tor Kavan Si-o Joreh. Jaou Tum Deevraa Taou Ham Baatee, Jaou Tum Tirath Taou Ham Jaatee. Saachee Pareet Ham Tum Si-o Joree, Tum Si-o Jor Avar Sang Toree. Jeh Jeh Jaa-ou Tahaa Tayree Sayvaa. Tum So Thaakur Aour Na Dayvaa. Tumray Bhajan Kateh Jam FaaNsaa, Bhagat Hayt Gaavai Ravidaasaa._
> 
> If You are the mountain, God, then I am the pea{censored}. If You are the moon, then I am the partridge in love with it. O God, if You will not break with me, then I will not break with You. For, if I were to break with You, with who would I then join? If You are the lamp, then I am the wick. If You are the sacred place of pilgrimage, then I am the pilgrim. I am joined in true love with You, God. I am joined with You, and I have broken with all others. Wherever I go, there I serve You. There is no other Master than You, O Divine God. Meditating, vibrating upon You, the noose of death is cut away. To attain devotional worship, Ravi Das sings to You, God. -----Ravidas, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 658
> 
> Virinder



ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਮੋਰਾ ॥[/FONT]ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਚੰਦ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਚਕੋਰਾ ॥[/FONT]ਮਾਧਵੇ ਤੁਮ ਨ ਤੋਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਤੋਰਹਿ ॥[/FONT]ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਤੋਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਹਿ ॥[/FONT]ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਦੀਵਰਾ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਬਾਤੀ ॥[/FONT]ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਜਾਤੀ ॥[/FONT]ਸਾਚੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰੀ ॥[/FONT]ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਿ ਅਵਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੋਰੀ ॥[/FONT] ਜਹ ਜਹ ਜਾਉ ਤਹਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥[/FONT]ਤੁਮ ਸੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥[/FONT]ਤੁਮਰੇ ਭਜਨ ਕਟਹਿ ਜਮ ਫਾਂਸਾ ॥[/FONT]ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸਾ ॥[/FONT]
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar-project/24068-eh-janam-tumhare-lekhe.html

_Jaou Tum Girivar Taou Ham Moraa, Jaou Tum Chand Taou Ham Bha-ay Hai Chakoraa. MaaDhvay Tum Na Torahu Taou Ham Nahee Toreh, Tum Si-o Tor Kavan Si-o Joreh. Jaou Tum Deevraa Taou Ham Baatee, Jaou Tum Tirath Taou Ham Jaatee. Saachee Pareet Ham Tum Si-o Joree, Tum Si-o Jor Avar Sang Toree. Jeh Jeh Jaa-ou Tahaa Tayree Sayvaa. Tum So Thaakur Aour Na Dayvaa. Tumray Bhajan Kateh Jam FaaNsaa, Bhagat Hayt Gaavai Ravidaasaa._

If You are the mountain, God, then I am the pea{censored}. If You are the moon, then I am the partridge in love with it. O God, if You will not break with me, then I will not break with You. For, if I were to break with You, with who would I then join? If You are the lamp, then I am the wick. If You are the sacred place of pilgrimage, then I am the pilgrim. I am joined in true love with You, God. I am joined with You, and I have broken with all others. Wherever I go, there I serve You. There is no other Master than You, O Divine God. Meditating, vibrating upon You, the noose of death is cut away. To attain devotional worship, Ravi Das sings to You, God. -----Ravidas, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 658

*VSGREWAL JI*
*With due respect, I have to disagree with your translation as it doesn’t align with the whole Shabada. Mind it; I have no attention to put you down, kindly bear it in mind.*
*As per your translation, Ravi das ji is saying “ oh God if you will not break with me then I will not break with you” is  incorrect because it doesn’t add up with the next Vaak, and remember, all stress is on these two Vaakas. Read the next Vaak of Ravi Das Ji and ponder over what he says “ for I were to break with you, with who I would join(I hope you mean have relationship)”.  Go to the next vaak” he describes the unbreakable relation/love “ I f you are the lamp I am the wick”, why would he put a condition before the beloved Lord like “if you don’t break, I will not break”? Many interpreters have taken fall here without keeping whole message of Bhagat Ji in mind*
*Here is my humble translation that will be aligned to the last Vaak of this Shabnad by  Bhagat Ravi das ji, here it is*

*“ Oh God,  if you break  up with me even then I will not” Why? Answer lies in the next Vaak” tum sir tor, kawan sir joreh” means if I break up with you with who I will have relationship/love,(pause) All stress is here. This idea is fortified in the next Vaak “you are the lamp and I am the wick” Further he says” I have broken with all others and built my love (relation/love) for you.(tum sar jor awar sang tori= I have developed true love for you and have broken(love)with others)*
*Even in the last Vaak, as you say is again incorrect” to attain devotional worship  Ravi Das sings to you God“ it should be “ oh God in your devotion,  Ravi Das sings your praise”  Bhagatas do not sing to attain devotional worship, in His devotion they sing. Thanks.*
*Regards*
*G Singh*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

pk70 said:


> ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਮੋਰਾ ॥[/FONT]ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਚੰਦ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਚਕੋਰਾ ॥[/FONT]ਮਾਧਵੇ ਤੁਮ ਨ ਤੋਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਤੋਰਹਿ ॥[/FONT]ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਤੋਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਹਿ ॥[/FONT]ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਦੀਵਰਾ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਬਾਤੀ ॥[/FONT]ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਜਾਤੀ ॥[/FONT]ਸਾਚੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰੀ ॥[/FONT]ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਿ ਅਵਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੋਰੀ ॥[/FONT] ਜਹ ਜਹ ਜਾਉ ਤਹਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥[/FONT]ਤੁਮ ਸੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥[/FONT]ਤੁਮਰੇ ਭਜਨ ਕਟਹਿ ਜਮ ਫਾਂਸਾ ॥[/FONT]ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸਾ ॥[/FONT]
> Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar-project/24068-eh-janam-tumhare-lekhe.html
> 
> _Jaou Tum Girivar Taou Ham Moraa, Jaou Tum Chand Taou Ham Bha-ay Hai Chakoraa. MaaDhvay Tum Na Torahu Taou Ham Nahee Toreh, Tum Si-o Tor Kavan Si-o Joreh. Jaou Tum Deevraa Taou Ham Baatee, Jaou Tum Tirath Taou Ham Jaatee. Saachee Pareet Ham Tum Si-o Joree, Tum Si-o Jor Avar Sang Toree. Jeh Jeh Jaa-ou Tahaa Tayree Sayvaa. Tum So Thaakur Aour Na Dayvaa. Tumray Bhajan Kateh Jam FaaNsaa, Bhagat Hayt Gaavai Ravidaasaa._
> 
> If You are the mountain, God, then I am the pea{censored}. If You are the moon, then I am the partridge in love with it. O God, if You will not break with me, then I will not break with You. For, if I were to break with You, with who would I then join? If You are the lamp, then I am the wick. If You are the sacred place of pilgrimage, then I am the pilgrim. I am joined in true love with You, God. I am joined with You, and I have broken with all others. Wherever I go, there I serve You. There is no other Master than You, O Divine God. Meditating, vibrating upon You, the noose of death is cut away. To attain devotional worship, Ravi Das sings to You, God. -----Ravidas, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 658
> 
> *VSGREWAL JI*
> *With due respect, I have to disagree with your translation as it doesn’t align with the whole Shabada. Mind it; I have no attention to put you down, kindly bear it in mind.*
> *As per your translation, Ravi das ji is saying “ oh God if you will not break with me then I will not break with you” is  incorrect because it doesn’t add up with the next Vaak, and remember, all stress is on these two Vaakas. Read the next Vaak of Ravi Das Ji and ponder over what he says “ for I were to break with you, with who I would join(I hope you mean have relationship)”.  Go to the next vaak” he describes the unbreakable relation/love “ I f you are the lamp I am the wick”, why would he put a condition before the beloved Lord like “if you don’t break, I will not break”? Many interpreters have taken fall here without keeping whole message of Bhagat Ji in mind*
> *Here is my humble translation that will be aligned to the last Vaak of this Shabnad by  Bhagat Ravi das ji, here it is*
> 
> *“ Oh God,  if you break  up with me even then I will not” Why? Answer lies in the next Vaak” tum sir tor, kawan sir joreh” means if I break up with you with who I will have relationship/love,(pause) All stress is here. This idea is fortified in the next Vaak “you are the lamp and I am the wick” Further he says” I have broken with all others and built my love (relation/love) for you.(tum sar jor awar sang tori= I have developed true love for you and have broken(love)with others)*
> *Even in the last Vaak, as you say is again incorrect” to attain devotional worship  Ravi Das sings to you God“ it should be “ oh God in your devotion,  Ravi Das sings your praise”  Bhagatas do not sing to attain devotional worship, in His devotion they sing. Thanks.*
> *Regards*
> *G Singh*



Respected G. Singh Ji (PK70)
Gurfateh.

God is the ONE and ONLY.

On a more worldly scale..lets say... IF my MOTHER/Father were to "break" with me or chase me out...I will have no choice but to WAIT for my Mother/Father to take me back. The saying..Putt Kaputt ho sakdeh hain..Mapeh Kumapeh nahin ho sakdeh. A person has only ONE mother/Father..and even if they break with their son/daughter..the progenee has NO CHOICE...in this world there is only ONE Mother one has !!

You have hit the Nail right on its head about Bhagat jis correct Message. Once again it has been shown HOW VITAL it is to "check out" each line..of any shabd so that it doesnt "stick out" like  a sore thumb. GURBANI is a delicately woven Fabric..each strand is in PeRFECT HARMONY with all the others...Pick one or two..and deal with them in ISOLATION at your own peril. You will be derailed.

Thnak you for yet another immensely valuable lesson in how to READ and Vichaar GURBANI. I can guess its going to be hugely interesting "debate" on Modnay when we discuss this Shabad. Immensely grateful.


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## vsgrewal48895

Dear All,

Thanks for your comments and nit picking. The Sabd is a devotional Sabd towards one creator. Literalizing and changing the words matter. It is the _*essence and reflection on it *_that matters and not the translation variation;

*Essence*​ 
The Gurmukhi words ਤਤ/ਤਤਿ/ਤਤੁ/ਤੱਤ are described by Mahan Kosh as;

*ਤਤ-Tat*- (1) ਤਤ੍ਵ, ਅਸਲੀਅਤ, ਸਾਰ ਵਸਤੂ (2) ਭੂਤ, ਅਨਾਸਰ ਸਾਧਾਰਣ ਮੂਲ ਪਦਾਰਥ (ਕੋਸ਼) (3) ਉਥੇ, ਉਧਰ ਤਤ੍ਰ (4) ਆਤਮ ਤਤ (5) ਤੁਰੰਤ, ਫੌਰਨ, ਤਤਕਾਲ ਦਾ ਸੰਖੇਪ (6) ਤਦ, ਤਦੋ (7) ਨਿਚੋੜ, ਸਾਰ (8) ਬ੍ਰਹਮ, ਹਰੀ

*ਤਤਿ-Tati*- (1) ਸਾਰ ਨਾਲ, ਤਤ ਨਾਲ, ਅਸਲੀਅਤ ਨਾਲ (2) ਵੀਚਾਰ (3) ਤਤ ਸਰੂਪ ਹਰਿ, ਬ੍ਰਹਮ.

*ਤਤੁ-Tatu-(*1) ਮੂਲ ਭਾਵ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ, ਹਰਿ, ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ (2) ਅਸਲੀਅਤ (3) ਤਤੁ (4) ਸਾਰ, ਨਿਚੋੜ (5) ਅਨਸਰ, ਭੂਤ, ਸਾਧਾਰਨ ਮੂਲ ਪਦਾਰਥ (6) ਮਖਣ (7) ਅਸਲੀ, ਸ਼ੁਧ, ਠੀਕ (8) ਤਤਕਾਲ, ਤੁਰੰਤ, ਝਟਪਟ (9) ਗਿਆਨ (10) ਜੋਤ

*ਤੱਤ- Tut-* (1) ਦੇਖੋ, ਤਤੁ। (2) ਵਿ- ਤਤ (ਪੌਣ) ਰੂਪ. ਹਵਾ ਜੇਹਾ ਚਾਲਾਕ. "ਚੜ੍ਯੋ ਤੱਤ ਤਾਜੀ". (ਪਾਰਸਾਵ).

All the above words mean essence, truth, reality, substance, element, there, which cannot be so many things. 

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥

_Gurmukẖ būjẖai ṯaṯ bīcẖārā._

Guru willed comes to understand the essence of reality; and reflects on It.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 109-17

ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨੈ ਸੁ ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥

_Āṯam cẖīnai so ṯaṯ bīcẖārė._ 

One, who understands his own conscience, contemplates the essence of reality. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 224-10


Respectfully Submitted,

Virinder


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## Tejwant Singh

Sadh Sangat,

Let us take it easy on Dr. Virinder Singh ji and rather appreciate his contributions and dedication towards Sikhi. His write ups in this forum speak for themselves.

First of all let us remind ourselves that we are all Sikhs- learners- students- seekers, hence not perfect.

I am glad lots of Scholars who write here have finally woken up and come to the realisation that how the literal translations in english are misleading and distorting. I have been advocating for years that for the people who are fluent in English and know Punjabi, to express the Shabads in their own words. No one had given a hoot, until very, very recently. But in the same token, the same scholars have used the same literal translations quite often by copying and pasting from the same resources to justify and elaborate their view points in this very forum for a very long time. One can use the SEARCH icon in this forum and find the posts written in the past by them to understand what I am talking about.

So it is unfair and dare I say, not a Sikhi way to accuse Dr. Sahib of using the same techniques that they themsleves have used without admitting that they have been in the same boat.

As I said very recently, let us put the English translation/interpretation in our own words by keeping Prof. Sahib Singh Punjabi translation and interpretation as our benchmark.

Those who do not understand Punjabi and find something fishy in the English versions on the internet are requested and urged to question them and ask the questions in the forum where things can be cleared.

I would suggest that the Admintrators should have a permanent thread always visible on the front page with a catchy title like: *Misintrepretions in English clarified.*

Following are 2 interpretations of the same Shabads discussed by Dr. Virinder Singh ji and PK70 ji and one can judge for oneself.

So once again, let people stop throwing sling shots at others about the wrong/incorrect interpretations because they have been practicing the same.

Let us make this forum the TRUE LEARNING CENTER of SIKH PHILOSOPHY.

No intentions to hurt anyone's feelings. I apologise if someone may feel that way.

Tejwant Singh

*SGGs page 658-659*

*Sant Singh Khlasa*

*ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ *
*Ja▫o ṯum girivar ṯa▫o ham morā. *
*If You are the mountain, Lord, then I am the pea{censored}. *

*ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਚੰਦ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਚਕੋਰਾ ॥੧॥ *
*Ja▫o ṯum cẖanḏ ṯa▫o ham bẖa▫e hai cẖakorā. ||1|| *
*If You are the moon, then I am the partridge in love with it. ||1|| *

*ਮਾਧਵੇ ਤੁਮ ਨ ਤੋਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਤੋਰਹਿ ॥ *
*Māḏẖve ṯum na ṯorahu ṯa▫o ham nahī ṯorėh. *
*O Lord, if You will not break with me, then I will not break with You. *

*ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਤੋਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ *
*Ŧum si▫o ṯor kavan si▫o jorėh. ||1|| rahā▫o. *
*For, if I were to break with You, with whom would I then join? ||1||Pause|| *

*ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਦੀਵਰਾ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਬਾਤੀ ॥ *
*Ja▫o ṯum ḏīvrā ṯa▫o ham bāṯī. *
*If You are the lamp, then I am the wick. *

*ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਜਾਤੀ ॥੨॥ *
*Ja▫o ṯum ṯirath ṯa▫o ham jāṯī. ||2|| *
*If You are the sacred place of pilgrimage, then I am the pilgrim. ||2|| *

*ਸਾਚੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰੀ ॥ *
*Sācẖī parīṯ ham ṯum si▫o jorī. *
*I am joined in true love with You, Lord. *

*ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਿ ਅਵਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੋਰੀ ॥੩॥ *
*Ŧum si▫o jor avar sang ṯorī. ||3|| *
*I am joined with You, and I have broken with all others. ||3|| *

*ਜਹ ਜਹ ਜਾਉ ਤਹਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ *
*Jah jah jā▫o ṯahā ṯerī sevā. *
*Wherever I go, there I serve You. *

*ਤੁਮ ਸੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੪॥ *
*Ŧum so ṯẖākur a▫or na ḏevā. ||4|| *
*There is no other Lord Master than You, O Divine Lord. ||4|| *

*ਤੁਮਰੇ ਭਜਨ ਕਟਹਿ ਜਮ ਫਾਂਸਾ ॥ *
*Ŧumre bẖajan katėh jam fāŉsā. *
*Meditating, vibrating upon You, the noose of death is cut away. *

*ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸਾ ॥੫॥੫॥ *
*Bẖagaṯ heṯ gāvai Raviḏāsā. ||5||5|| *
*To attain devotional worship, Ravi Daas sings to You, Lord. ||5||5|| *

*Bhai Manmohan Singh ji*



*ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ *
*Ja▫o ṯum girivar ṯa▫o ham morā. *
*If thou art a mountain, then I am thy pea{censored}, O Lord. *

*ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਚੰਦ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਚਕੋਰਾ ॥੧॥ *
*Ja▫o ṯum cẖanḏ ṯa▫o ham bẖa▫e hai cẖakorā. ||1|| *
*If Thou art the moon, then I am thine red-legged partridge. *

*ਮਾਧਵੇ ਤੁਮ ਨ ਤੋਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਤੋਰਹਿ ॥ *
*Māḏẖve ṯum na ṯorahu ṯa▫o ham nahī ṯorėh. *
*O Lord of wealth, if Thou breakest not with me, then I will not break with Thee. *

*ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਤੋਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ *
*Ŧum si▫o ṯor kavan si▫o jorėh. ||1|| rahā▫o. *
*For, If I break with Thee, with whom else shall I join? Pause. *

*ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਦੀਵਰਾ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਬਾਤੀ ॥ *
*Ja▫o ṯum ḏīvrā ṯa▫o ham bāṯī. *
*If Thou art an earthen lamp, then I am Thy wick. *

*ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਜਾਤੀ ॥੨॥ *
*Ja▫o ṯum ṯirath ṯa▫o ham jāṯī. ||2|| *
*If thou art a place of pilgrimage, then I am Thine pilgrim. *

*ਸਾਚੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰੀ ॥ *
*Sācẖī parīṯ ham ṯum si▫o jorī. *
*True love I have joined with Thee, O Lord. *

*ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਿ ਅਵਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੋਰੀ ॥੩॥ *
*Ŧum si▫o jor avar sang ṯorī. ||3|| *
*Attaching myself to Thee, I have broken with all others. *

*ਜਹ ਜਹ ਜਾਉ ਤਹਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ *
*Jah jah jā▫o ṯahā ṯerī sevā. *
*Wither-so-ever I go, thither I perform Thine service. *

*ਤੁਮ ਸੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੪॥ *
*Ŧum so ṯẖākur a▫or na ḏevā. ||4|| *
*There is no other Lord, like Thee, O God. *

*ਤੁਮਰੇ ਭਜਨ ਕਟਹਿ ਜਮ ਫਾਂਸਾ ॥ *
*Ŧumre bẖajan katėh jam fāŉsā. *
*By Thy meditation, death's noose is cut away. *

*ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸਾ ॥੫॥੫॥ *
*Bẖagaṯ heṯ gāvai Raviḏāsā. ||5||5|| *
*To obtain Thine devotional service, O Lord, Ravi Dass sings Thy praise. *


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## spnadmin

Tejwant ji

Alll I am writing here is a footnote to the conversation. There are only 5 approved English translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib -- approved by the SGPC. One is partial -- it is the Professor Sahib Singh translation of Japji. I have 3 of the 5. The differences throughout in translations is dramatic. When we also consider the importance of Professor Sahib Singh as the benchmark, we also need to keep in mind that he wrote mainly in Punjabi. So anything he wrote will also need translation into English -- and once again the translaiton problem raises its ugly head because there can be more than one translation of Professor Sahib Singh as well. For me the bottom line is that one has to be patient and one has to be diligent about critical review of every translation. How do they compare and match, how do they differ and deviate from one another, why does this happen, how do meanings change. The understanding will be a life-long process. Thanks.


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## Tejwant Singh

aad0002 said:


> Tejwant ji
> 
> Alll I am writing here is a footnote to the conversation. There are only 5 approved English translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib -- approved by the SGPC. One is partial -- it is the Professor Sahib Singh translation of Japji. I have 3 of the 5. The differences throughout in translations is dramatic. When we also consider the importance of Professor Sahib Singh as the benchmark, we also need to keep in mind that he wrote mainly in Punjabi. So anything he wrote will also need translation into English -- and once again the translaiton problem raises its ugly head because there can be more than one translation of Professor Sahib Singh as well. For me the bottom line is that one has to be patient and one has to be diligent about critical review of every translation. How do they compare and match, how do they differ and deviate from one another, why does this happen, how do meanings change. The understanding will be a life-long process. Thanks.


 
Antonia ji

Guru fateh.

I totally agree with you. So that is why rather than accusing others of giving the wrong translations, let us make an effort in checking its origin and discuss it in the forum how to correct things. We are all here to learn and let us start contributing in the way our Gurus would have wanted us to.

We all can find nitty bitty things in every post and start an argument with everyone. But that is not our objective neither should it be.

Openmindedness and giving the benefit of the doubts to others is the key in understanding ourselves through Shabad Vichaar.

Tejwant Singh


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## pk70

*SPN Sangat Ji*
*Dr Sahib Singh ji did wonderful job, S Manmohan Singh is better than Sant Singh Ji Khalsa Ji but he is not perfect either. Neither I am.   It doesn’t mean we should close our eyes and follow them,  I recommend SPN sangat, whenever you read Gurbani, ponder over the whole shabad, never ever take guaranteed that it has been interpreted perfectly, this the only way to go into depth of Gurbani Message. Now let’s see why I disagree with this interpretation. This interpretation puts a condition “If you break up, I shall” Does this align with the next vaak’ if I break with you with who I shall join” ?  NO. Ravi Das Ji shares the fact that “even if oh Lord you break up with me, I will not because if I break up with you,  who I shall have relations otherwise” Whoever interprets out of this given fact is incorrect due to its contradictory element..*
*In the end, look at word” het” , in Sikh Ardaas, it is said “dharm het sees ditte”  means “sacrificed in Dharma”,  its means, “Het” means  not only “ for” but also” in”  It depends where and how it’s used.  Saints are already in devotion, why would they seek devotion? Devotion is the only vital gift they are blessed with. The purpose of the Shabad is very simple “There is unbreakable relation between Ravidas ji and his Lord, he declares that even if his Lord breaks up; he won’t because he has no place to go. Then he compares his relations with Lord with other examples. At the end he declares to sing the praises of his Lord in his devotion.*
*I am just appalled to see hypocrisy of preaching to have open mind at one hand and at other hand strictly sticking to past interpretation and calling it “net picking” if questioned. Funny*
*Well SPN sangat have all interpretations, let them believe which contains oneness of the Shabada.*


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## Tejwant Singh

PK70 ji

Guru Fateh.

You write:



> *I am just appalled to see hypocrisy of preaching to have open mind at one hand and at other hand strictly sticking to past interpretation and calling it “net picking” if questioned. Funny
> *




Would you be kind enough to elaborate what you mean by the above?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh


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## spnadmin

Tejwant ji

Let me  persist with one more thought -- from the mind, heart, eyes and computer keyboard of a beginner -- and then shut up. Why is is that 4 of the 5 translations, all by native born Punjabi speakers, are all different? A simple-minded question, I know. But there has to be a reason. Could the reason be that 4 Punjabi scholars work from different understandings of the intended meaning of these vaaks *as they are expressed in English?* Did they come up with a different vichaar or is it the same vichaar of Guruji - but a different grasp of the English equivalent? 

Let me give another example. I use a gutka by a very famous Sikh scholar. His nitnem English translations are the most widely used. IMHO -- his translation into English is really annoying, because he doesn't get the English side of the equation, in fact his translations are distracting. Everytime the name of Nanak is mentionned, he puts Satguru in parentheses -- of course to be exact and precise. But it is distracting to read Nanak (Satguru) says... 200 times. So I just read the Punjabi side in transliteration and some of the Gurmukhi. 

See, I think the problem is not "bad translations." The problem is that there are some badly translated places of SGGS and these are the result of problems with technicalities of English. Thinking back to the verse _Jaou Tum Girivar Taou Ham Moraa, Jaou Tum Chand Taou Ham Bha-ay Hai Chakoraa. _*There we see the Tum....Tum Construction  *This doesn't happen in English and a translator working from Punjabi to English could get tangled up in how to cast this correctly in English.  Another example is the word Hukam -- How do you really say this in English and capture the original meaning without coming up with something that sounds ridiculous in English? Not easy to be a translator.

I also agree with pk70 ji that the entire shabad is full of clues about the meaning of a single line --* this is the axiom that we must follow. *


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## Tejwant Singh

aad0002 said:


> Tejwant ji
> 
> Let me persist with one more thought -- from the mind, heart, eyes and computer keyboard of a beginner -- and then shut up. Why is is that 4 of the 5 translations, all by native born Punjabi speakers, are all different? A simple-minded question, I know. But there has to be a reason. Could the reason be that 4 Punjabi scholars work from different understandings of the intended meaning of these vaaks *as they are expressed in English?* Did they come up with a different vichaar or is it the same vichaar of Guruji - but a different grasp of the English equivalent?
> 
> Let me give another example. I use a gutka by a very famous Sikh scholar. His nitnem English translations are the most widely used. IMHO -- his translation into English is really annoying, because he doesn't get the English side of the equation, in fact his translations are distracting. Everytime the name of Nanak is mentionned, he puts Satguru in parentheses -- of course to be exact and precise. But it is distracting to read Nanak (Satguru) says... 200 times. So I just read the Punjabi side in transliteration and some of the Gurmukhi.
> 
> See, I think the problem is not "bad translations." The problem is that there are some badly translated places of SGGS and these are the result of problems with technicalities of English. Thinking back to the verse _Jaou Tum Girivar Taou Ham Moraa, Jaou Tum Chand Taou Ham Bha-ay Hai Chakoraa. _*There we see the Tum....Tum Construction *This doesn't happen in English and a translator working from Punjabi to English could get tangled up in how to cast this correctly in English. Another example is the word Hukam -- How do you really say this in English and capture the original meaning without coming up with something that sounds ridiculous in English? Not easy to be a translator.
> 
> I also agree with pk70 ji that the entire shabad is full of clues about the meaning of a single line --* this is the axiom that we must follow. *


 
Aad ji,

Guru fateh.

Once again I agree and understand the problems we are facing in English translations by different people.

Perhaps this is a wake up call for all of us who just copy and paste without reading the whole Shabad's literal translation. Now if you see about the Shabad by Bhagat Ravi Daas in discussion, there is hardly any difference between the interpretation between the 2 authors. Hence it is the authors who have interpreted it wrong to strart with which should be discussed and clarified.

Tejwant Singh


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## pk70

VaheguruSeekr said:


> PK70 ji
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> You write:
> 
> 
> 
> Would you be kind enough to elaborate what you mean by the above?
> 
> 
> *Vaheguru Seekr Ji*
> *Well, you assume I said something to you, don’t you? In fact I didn’t. You want me to elaborate, alright*
> *Reread posts by VSGrewals Ji in context” Bir Bano Ji”, where I simply asked him why only to stick to that Bir of Bano, why shouldn’t we stick to all the Shabadas Fifth Nanak wrote against rituals? Instead of grasping that, he preached to be “open minded” now when he is questioned; he is calling it “net-picking”*
> *At one hand he favors to have open mind, when he himself is questioned that preaching of having open mind disappears, it’s that simple hypocrisy. You are not part o it in any way.*


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## spnadmin

It would be interesting to take one shabad translated into English by Bhai Manmohan Singh, Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa, and Gurbachan Singh, and even Professor Sahib Singh (but we are limited to Japji Sahib if we include him). Then see how the translations deviate in terms of their meaning, and where they are the same in terms of their meaning. Next, try to understandi why the understanding (not the English) may be different. Then try to work out why there is a different English wording.


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## Tejwant Singh

pk70 said:


> VaheguruSeekr said:
> 
> 
> 
> PK70 ji
> 
> Guru Fateh.
> 
> You write:
> 
> 
> 
> Would you be kind enough to elaborate what you mean by the above?
> 
> 
> *Vaheguru Seekr Ji*
> *Well, you assume I said something to you, don’t you? In fact I didn’t. You want me to elaborate, alright*
> *Reread posts by VSGrewals Ji in context” Bir Bano Ji”, where I simply asked him why only to stick to that Bir of Bano, why shouldn’t we stick to all the Shabadas Fifth Nanak wrote against rituals? Instead of grasping that, he preached to be “open minded” now when he is questioned; he is calling it “net-picking”*
> *At one hand he favors to have open mind, when he himself is questioned that preaching of having open mind disappears, it’s that simple hypocrisy. You are not part o it in any way.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pk70 ji
> 
> Guru fateh.
> 
> Well, I am sorry to say that from your posts it seemed you were responding to my posts because I  did mention about Sant Singh Khalsa and Bhai Manmohan Singh's interpretations regarding this thread in discussion as you did in your posts and secondly I also used " openmindedness and  nit picking" to my post to Aad ji.
> 
> I checked Virinder Singh's posts regarding what is being discussed in this very thread and he never used either words.
> 
> It seems you are confused about some other thread which has nothing to do with this one.
> 
> Hence it was not a presumption as you claimed it to be but a logical conclusion based on the  facts of this thread.
> 
> Now  if you want to discuss something about other posts by Virinder ji in other threads, please feel free to let me know.
> 
> Tejwant Singh
Click to expand...


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## Tejwant Singh

aad0002 said:


> It would be interesting to take one shabad translated into English by Bhai Manmohan Singh, Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa, and Gurbachan Singh, and even Professor Sahib Singh (but we are limited to Japji Sahib if we include him). Then see how the translations deviate in terms of their meaning, and where they are the same in terms of their meaning. Next, try to understandi why the understanding (not the English) may be different. Then try to work out why there is a different English wording.


 
Aad ji,

Guru Fateh.

Great idea.

Your choice would be my desire and it is not a pick-up line. So you choose any Shabad and post the English versions by different authors and let us discuss is. This is the way with all these great Seekers here we will be able to have a more plausable interpretation in English.

Thanks for the great idea.

Tejwant Singh


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## pk70

VaheguruSeekr said:


> Well, I am sorry to say that from your posts it seemed you were responding to my posts because I did mention about Sant Singh Khalsa and Bhai Manmohan Singh's interpretations regarding this thread in discussion as you did in your posts and secondly I also used " openmindedness and nit picking" to my post to Aad ji.
> *I am glad it’s clear to you that I didn’t respond to your comments but the dragging  of the point goes on.*
> 
> I checked Virinder Singh's posts regarding what is being discussed in this very thread and he never used either words.
> *I mentioned his posts about “Bir of Bano” not about this very thread, obviously you are confused here, there is no mention of “this very thread” in my comments.
> *
> It seems you are confused about some other thread which has nothing to do with this one.
> *Actually you are confused by my comments about hypocrisy. You asked me and I answered it by giving the context, now you are talking about this very thread even after reading what I wrote in reference to Bir of Bano*
> 
> Hence it was not a presumption as you claimed it to be but a logical conclusion based on the facts of this thread.
> *When I mentioned “preaching to have open mind”, it was referred to VSGREWAL Ji’s reference in context of Bir of Bano, I referred him and you jumped in uncalled for without thinking for a second. Why? Didn’t you read the word “net-picking in my comments”? You never used that word, then why to bother? You want to drag it, keep doing it.
> *
> Now if you want to discuss something about other posts by Virinder ji in other threads, please feel free to let me know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I shall discuss with him for sure thanks for the permission*
> *Thanks*
> *Regards’*
> *G Singh
> *


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## vsgrewal48895

Dear PKSingh Ji,

Your question about Bir Banno and other Sabds of Guru Arjan;

The Sabd in debate was picked up with a question as top why the Sabd does not end with the name of the Nanak while all other Sabds end with Nanak's Name.
Instead of answering the question you spinned it to other Sabds. Please answer the question from where the discussion started before we go to other 30 + Sabds written by him on his son. I did present two of those Sabds written for his son, one on his birthday and second when he was sick with pox.

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal


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## Tejwant Singh

pk70 said:


> VaheguruSeekr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tejwant:Well, I am sorry to say that from your posts it seemed you were responding to my posts because I did mention about Sant Singh Khalsa and Bhai Manmohan Singh's interpretations regarding this thread in discussion as you did in your posts and secondly I also used " openmindedness and nit picking" to my post to Aad ji.
> 
> *PK70:I am glad it’s clear to you that I didn’t respond to your comments but the dragging of the point goes on.*
> 
> From your response you did and it is clear in your posts as explained above. I did not get where you got the assumption that "*I am glad it’s clear to you".* My post does not say that. Now if you want to deny that. it is ok with me.
> 
> 
> Tejwant:I checked Virinder Singh's posts regarding what is being discussed in this very thread and he never used either words.
> *PK70:I mentioned his posts about “Bir of Bano” not about this very thread, obviously you are confused here, there is no mention of “this very thread” in my comments.
> 
> * Well, I was particulary talking about this very thread " Bir of Bano" has nothing to do with this one. If you wanted to talk about Bir Bano then you have written in that thread. Here as you know we are discussiing Bhai Ravidas ji. So one wonders who is confused here?!
> 
> Literal translations by Sant Singh Khalsa and Bhai Manmohan Singh, both mentioned by you and me in the posts have nothing to do with "Bir of Bano" but with Bhai Ravi Das ji in this thread. I am sure you are aware of that.
> 
> Tejwant:It seems you are confused about some other thread which has nothing to do with this one.
> *Pk70:Actually you are confused by my comments about hypocrisy. You asked me and I answered it by giving the context, now you are talking about this very thread even after reading what I wrote in reference to Bir of Bano*
> 
> Pk70 ji, Once again this thread has nothing to do with Birof Bano. As I said before it is you who is confused. Let us stick to this thread. Let us not mix apples and oranges.
> 
> Tejwant:Hence it was not a presumption as you claimed it to be but a logical conclusion based on the facts of this thread.
> *PK70:When I mentioned “preaching to have open mind”, it was referred to VSGREWAL Ji’s reference in context of Bir of Bano, I referred him and you jumped in uncalled for without thinking for a second. Why? Didn’t you read the word “net-picking in my comments”? You never used that word, then why to bother? You want to drag it, keep doing it.*
> 
> Pk70 ji, Virinder ji did not mention anything about openmindedness and nity bitty things which also means nit picking, in this thread. I did. Read my post in response to Aad ji. So it is you who is dragging with your denial. The posts speak for themselves.
> 
> So, my request to you for the next time is that place you post in the relevant threads.
> 
> Tewjant:Now if you want to discuss something about other posts by Virinder ji in other threads, please feel free to let me know.
> *PK70:I shall discuss with him for sure thanks for the permission.*
> 
> It seems you love to twist what is being said. Read my post again. I never said you need my permission.
> 
> With this I would like to end this futile discussion. Now, once again, if you want to discuss with me some other thread, as I said before, pls feel free to let me know.
> 
> Thanks for your indulgence.
> 
> Tejwant Singh
Click to expand...


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## pk70

VaheguruSeekr said:


> pk70 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VaheguruSeekr said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Vaheguru seekr ji
> 
> You asked me about hypocrisy thing, I replied it and explained that it was not about you at all  and since you didnt use the word "net-picking", you shouldn't have taken that as a response to your post in the first place, you did, may be by confusion, I clarified  that then what is left? Dragging?
> If I referred to VSGREWAL's post about Bano-Bir, why it bothered you? Let him come and answer it he is 74 years educated man. He mentioned in a thread related with Bir of bhai Bano" to look at that with open mind" I just referred it, why it bothers you so much?. For God's sake you were not even in the picture!!
> Regards
> G Singh*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## vsgrewal48895

I replied it and you never answered my question about the incomplete Sabd of Guru Arjan in Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page 927.
Virinder


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## pk70

vsgrewal48895 said:


> I replied it and you never answered my question about the incomplete Sabd of Guru Arjan in Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page 927.
> Virinder




*Respected VSGREWAL JI

Why I didn't answer? Very simple, I told you to obey Guru's Hukam on rituals instead of looking for more than two lines.
There could be just two lines and he never thought of adding to it.
How Bano-Bir carries authentic Shabad? you rely totally on Bano as per Harbans Singh, I dont because for me when Guru criticize rituals, there is no way the rituals were performed in Guru house. If they were, people would not stay with Guru because there were Dheermal and others shops were ready to take them. True Guru does what he practices. I am not going to accept Bano compared to Guru's own Shabadas against rituals period. I am sticking to Guru what he wrote about rituals not Bano and his so called Shabad.

Regards
G Singh
*


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

What I cant fathom....honestly i just dont get it...is..

ALL the "twisting..turning..etc etc types of accusations: leveled repeatedly against anyone who doesnt agree with ones own abstract/translation version. To me that looks like *Denial* in real terms..living in ones own world...just too much..it may be 21st century in the West's most developed First World country......but still in a cocoon.
Just post  mail..even mildly "different"..and the accusation is instant..twisted..turned..misinterpreted..
Surely we can give each other some space....no one is an "expert"...no one is " a cut above the rest..no one is way below...no one is "fully Keshadharee" (meaning FULLY and 110% folliwing the IDEAL KHALSA") and no one is  "fully clean shaven" either (meaning absolutley 110% clean inside of all the 5 thieves influences).
I have many disagreements..but I try and never accuse any of trying to twist..turn etc.. I am NOT GOD..so how do i know who is twisting and turning...imho too much hyper sensitivity to seemingly "denial modes"..doesnt help at all. Can we really claim we can Read the minds of others ???

I Have ALL the SEVEN Teekas..translations in Hard Copy...and they do DIFFER a huge lot from each other...BUT what i FAILED TO read in any of the Translations is an *ACCUSATION* by any one author...So and so has twisted..he has turned..he is in Denial. he is living in the past...he has this and he has that...that is a *TRUE ACADEMIC Standard* we shoull all try and follow. As Antonia Ji has so aptly put..one can lead a horse to water..but not make it drink. NO one has the "Statistics"..so whats the big deal...
Sorry and apologies if i have said too much or hurt any one's feelings...i never intended to...just learning..unlearning..and relearning...a Life time experience !!


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## spnadmin

Gyani ji

This is very true,

I Have ALL the SEVEN Teekas..translations in Hard Copy...and they do DIFFER a huge lot from each other...BUT what i FAILED TO read in any of the Translations is an *ACCUSATION* by any one author..


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

pk70 said:


> *Respected VSGREWAL JI
> 
> Why I didn't answer? Very simple, I told you to obey Guru's Hukam on rituals instead of looking for more than two lines.
> There could be just two lines and he never thought of adding to it.
> How Bano-Bir carries authentic Shabad? you rely totally on Bano as per Harbans Singh, I dont because for me when Guru criticize rituals, there is no way the rituals were performed in Guru house. If they were, people would not stay with Guru because there were Dheermal and others shops were ready to take them. True Guru does what he practices. I am not going to accept Bano compared to Guru's own Shabadas against rituals period. I am sticking to Guru what he wrote about rituals not Bano and his so called Shabad.
> 
> Regards
> G Singh
> 
> 
> *



*IF GURU NANAK JI could DROP the Janeau...in an instant..and in full view of all the gathered family members, pandit ji and patwanteh sajjan who were there for the ceremony and would be  deeply offended.. (even the Bakra had been slaughtered and the food was ready !!) and REFUSED to wear it...I dont see any logic in the reasoning behind the "GURU HARGOBIND Ji/GURUARJUN JI" failing to STOP RITUAL in their family. Absolutley preposterous accusation. By the time of Guru Arjun Ji..Sikhi was definitely more stronger than when Guru nanak ji was a mere child . The Banno theory doesnt hold water at all...not for me.* Avar updeseh aap na kareh is NOT GURU JI...the Same Guru ji who could die on the Hot Plate defending his principles...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh

aad0002 said:


> It would be interesting to take one shabad translated into English by Bhai Manmohan Singh, Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa, and Gurbachan Singh, and even Professor Sahib Singh (but we are limited to Japji Sahib if we include him). Then see how the translations deviate in terms of their meaning, and where they are the same in terms of their meaning. Next, try to understand why the understanding (not the English) may be different. Then try to work out why there is a different English wording.



And not to forget..each of the authors "wears"  different "spectacles".
Some like those who authored the Fareedkotee Teka are wearing "SAFFRON Coloured spectacles"...so deeply steeped in Vedanta/Hinduism.Puranas, Udasis. Nirmalas. seva panthi traditions....just the word "6 chheh" and they immediately jump to SIX SHASTARS...for them there could be no other reason for "Chehh"..
The others are also simialrly affected by their background, environment, etc etc
There is a Punjabi saying..Saun de annaeh nu harra hee hara disdah hai...anone who became BLIND in Spring...sees " everything in GREEN"...because thats the last colour he saw !!
There is an ongoing similar "translation Project" goin on on another Forum..but that chief transaltor has a fixation with the Devil/Demon/Angels/HELL/HEAVEN.. etc as he was brought up in the Western education system and Bible environment...so he is busy looking for "Devils and Demons" in GURBANI with a fine toothed comb !!and he is "finding" it !!!! plenty of Devils and demons and hells and heavens..shows how twists and turns do happen after all...one can "see" what one wants in the mirror..Mirror mirror on the Wall...who is the best translator of them all ?? !!! not a joke.

This is  a realy Massive ( Capital M ) Project...only a well established Academic/Spiritual/ well mixed group can manage a well balanced translation acceptable to all...Prof Sahib Singh is a "almost Perfect" start..Thank God for that.


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## spnadmin

Gyani ji

That is what I was trying to say, but treading softly because I am no expert. They wear different spectacles. I am still trying to figure out which color of spectacles is worn by the author of my NitNem. 

I have started a thread in Gurmat Vichaar for comparisons of translations. Tranlations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj: The Difficult and the Contradictory.


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## spnadmin

Gyani ji

This is a little bit of a deviation but what do you know of the Prithpal Singh translation which is described as a revision of the translation of Bhai Manmohan Singh. What was revised? Did SGPC approve it?


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