# What Actually Are The 3 Qualities?



## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 3, 2012)

what actually are this 3 qualities? please discuss


Page 30, Line 13
ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥
त्रै गुण माइआ मोहु है गुरमुखि चउथा पदु पाइ ॥
Ŧarai guṇ mā▫i▫ā moh hai gurmukẖ cẖa▫uthā paḏ pā▫e.
The three qualities hold people in attachment to *Maya*. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness.
*Guru Amar Das*   -  [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE

The link does not take us to the shabad you are quoting. spnadmin


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## spnadmin (Dec 3, 2012)

The answer from Bhagat Kabir ji on Ang 1123

ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੀ

रागु केदारा बाणी कबीर जीउ की

Rāg keḏārā baṇī Kabīr jī▫o kī

Raag Kaydaaraa, The Word Of Kabeer Jee:


ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

Ik▫oaŉkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:


ਉਸਤਤਿ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਦੋਊ ਬਿਬਰਜਿਤ ਤਜਹੁ ਮਾਨੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ॥

उसतति निंदा दोऊ बिबरजित तजहु मानु अभिमाना ॥

Usṯaṯ ninḏā ḏo▫ū bibarjiṯ ṯajahu mān abẖimānā.

Those who ignore both praise and slander, who reject egotistical pride and conceit,


ਲੋਹਾ ਕੰਚਨੁ ਸਮ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਹਿ ਤੇ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਭਗਵਾਨਾ ॥੧॥

लोहा कंचनु सम करि जानहि ते मूरति भगवाना ॥१॥

Lohā kancẖan sam kar jānėh ṯe mūraṯ bẖagvānā. ||1||

who look alike upon iron and gold - they are the very image of the Lord God. ||1||


ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਏਕੁ ਆਧੁ ਕੋਈ ॥

तेरा जनु एकु आधु कोई ॥

Ŧerā jan ek āḏẖ ko▫ī.

Hardly anyone is a humble servant of Yours, O Lord.


ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਬਿਬਰਜਿਤ ਹਰਿ ਪਦੁ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

कामु क्रोधु लोभु मोहु बिबरजित हरि पदु चीन्है सोई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Kām kroḏẖ lobẖ moh bibarjiṯ har paḏ cẖīnĥai so▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Ignoring sexual desire, anger, greed and attachment, such a person becomes aware of the Lord's Feet. ||1||Pause||


ਰਜ ਗੁਣ ਤਮ ਗੁਣ ਸਤ ਗੁਣ ਕਹੀਐ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਭ ਮਾਇਆ ॥

रज गुण तम गुण सत गुण कहीऐ इह तेरी सभ माइआ ॥

Raj guṇ ṯam guṇ saṯ guṇ kahī▫ai ih ṯerī sabẖ mā▫i▫ā.

Raajas, the quality of energy and activity; Taamas, the quality of darkness and inertia; and Satvas, the quality of purity and light, are all called the creations of Maya, Your illusion.


ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ ਕਉ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹੀ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥

चउथे पद कउ जो नरु चीन्है तिन्ह ही परम पदु पाइआ ॥२॥

Cẖa▫uthe paḏ ka▫o jo nar cẖīnĥai ṯinĥ hī param paḏ pā▫i▫ā. ||2||

That man who realizes the fourth state - he alone obtains the supreme state. ||2||


ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਸੁਚਿ ਸੰਜਮ ਸਦਾ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਹਕਾਮਾ ॥

तीरथ बरत नेम सुचि संजम सदा रहै निहकामा ॥

Ŧirath baraṯ nem sucẖ sanjam saḏā rahai nihkāmā.

Amidst pilgrimages, fasting, rituals, purification and self-discipline, he remains always without thought of reward.


ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਅਰੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਚੂਕਾ ਚਿਤਵਤ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮਾ ॥੩॥

त्रिसना अरु माइआ भ्रमु चूका चितवत आतम रामा ॥३॥

Ŧarisnā ar mā▫i▫ā bẖaram cẖūkā cẖiṯvaṯ āṯam rāmā. ||3||

Thirst and desire for Maya and doubt depart, remembering the Lord, the Supreme Soul. ||3||


ਜਿਹ ਮੰਦਰਿ ਦੀਪਕੁ ਪਰਗਾਸਿਆ ਅੰਧਕਾਰੁ ਤਹ ਨਾਸਾ ॥

जिह मंदरि दीपकु परगासिआ अंधकारु तह नासा ॥

Jih manḏar ḏīpak pargāsi▫ā anḏẖkār ṯah nāsā.

When the temple is illuminated by the lamp, its darkness is dispelled.


ਨਿਰਭਉ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹੇ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭਾਗਾ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਜਨ ਦਾਸਾ ॥੪॥੧॥

निरभउ पूरि रहे भ्रमु भागा कहि कबीर जन दासा ॥४॥१॥

Nirbẖa▫o pūr rahe bẖaram bẖāgā kahi Kabīr jan ḏāsā. ||4||1||

The Fearless Lord is All-pervading. Doubt has run away, says Kabeer, the Lord's humble slave. ||4||1||

However the "gunas" yes are part of the illusion of Maya, but not the point of the shabad above or the one you have posted. Distractions? Focus on that which really matters. It is interesting that the evils are released and the gunas become unimportant, darkness is dispelled, and doubt departs by remembering the Lord. From the rehao line the goal: to become aware of the Lord's feet.


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 3, 2012)

dear members
sat sri akal. the above subject is related to 3 types consciousness.. the above shabad should have written--

The three consciousness hold people in attachment to *Maya*. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness.


or else majority of the readers might get confuse when they compare it with the 3 quality-gunas..my above subject is related to consciousness---


waking state consciousness---- consciousness plus thinking

dreaming state consciousness--- unconsciousness plus thinking

sleeping state consciousness--- unconsciousness minus thinking

fourth stage-- some called it turiya--- consciousness minus thinking


waking state is earned on earth physical world

dreaming state is earned in astral regions

sleeping without dreams is earned in casual or mental plane, this consciousness is the highest experience in maya 3 worlds, but it is not an eternal experience only temporary

all the above experiences are still under the grip of mind.. only in the fourth stages the mind and ego starts to vanish. please correct me if i am wrong. thanks


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 3, 2012)

That's a good start HSD ji, there is more. From a non-theistic perspective:

Waking state - attachment to the 5 senses + consciousness (but individual is unaware of consciousness)

Dreaming state - attachment to the 5 senses + some consciousness (but individual is unaware of consciousness)

Deep Sleep - no attachment to the 5 senses + no consciousness

Fourth state/Turiya - no attachment to the 5 senses + consciousness + awareness of consciousness


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## aristotle (Dec 3, 2012)

In Samkhya philosophy, there are three major guṇas that serve as the fundamental operating principles or 'tendencies' of prakṛti (universal nature) which are called: *sattva guṇa*,* rajas guṇa*, and* tamas guṇa*.   The three primary gunas are generally accepted to be associated with   creation (sattva), preservation (rajas), and destruction (tamas).
(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guṇa)

ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਹਜੁ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇ ॥ (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Pg 68)
(In the three qualities, intuitive balance is not obtained; the three qualities lead to delusion and doubt.)

Further,


> ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ[/FONT] ਮੂਲੁ[/FONT] ਵੇਦ[/FONT] ਅਭਿਆਸਾ[/FONT] [/FONT]॥[/FONT]
> Brahma is the founder   of the study of the Vedas.[/FONT]
> ਤਿਸ[/FONT] ਤੇ[/FONT] ਉਪਜੇ[/FONT] ਦੇਵ[/FONT] ਮੋਹ[/FONT] ਪਿਆਸਾ[/FONT] [/FONT]॥[/FONT]
> From him emanated the   gods, enticed by desire.[/FONT]
> ...




Guru Sahib clearly talks about the tripartite 'Gunas' as described in the Vedic and Samkhya philosophy and how believing in them one is led astray.

_How should one be led astray by this simple concept of birth, sustenance and destruction??__That's the big metaphysical question in this..._

Vedic philosophy basically supports the idea of duality in worship. One is the concept of a supreme _Brahman, and the other is of the myriads of Gods and Goddesses _(Both concepts are contained in Vedas, not otherwise as argued by some Hindu apologetics)_. _Interestingly, these Gods and Godesses are not always viewed as 'aspects' of a single 'God', they have a proper hierarchy into greater and lesser Gods, some indigenous and non-indigenous ones, and list runs into millions. Even the concept of 'Trimurti', which in essence represents the 'Trigunas', is not well-developed and vague, theologist R.C. Majumdar observes,
_"Its  most notable expression is to be found in the theological conception of  the Trimūrti, i.e., the manifestation of the supreme God in three forms  of Brahmā, Viṣṇu, and Śiva.... But the attempt cannot be regarded as a  great success, for *Brahmā never gained an ascendancy comparable to that of Śiva or Viṣṇu*, and the *different sects often conceived the Trimūrti as really the three manifestations of their own sectarian god*, whom they regarded as Brahman or Absolute. "

I request fellow SPNers to shed some light on this...

_


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## spnadmin (Dec 3, 2012)

Harcharanjitsinghdhillon ji

In your original post this is what you copied from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji: 


> ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥
> त्रै गुण माइआ मोहु है गुरमुखि चउथा पदु पाइ ॥
> Ŧarai guṇ mā▫i▫ā moh hai gurmukẖ cẖa▫uthā paḏ pā▫e.
> The three qualities hold people in attachment to Maya. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness.



The tuk is clearly about the "gunas" and the entire shabad clarifies the connection between gunas and Maya. You then change your comments to talk about states of consciousness. To get at a "gurmat" understanding it is important to stay close to the shabad and not be distracted by the philosophical musings coming from other paths. 

In turiya theoretically one is no longer influenced by the gunas. It is beyond the gunas. This discussion  goes astray when we make the shabad take a detour rather  than think about what is really there. 

This statement is misleading: 



> or else majority of the readers might get confuse when they compare it with the 3 quality-gunas..my above subject is related to consciousness---
> 
> waking state consciousness---- consciousness plus thinking
> 
> ...



The gunas are gunas. The gunas are not states with or without ("minus") thinking, nor is the astral world relevant to the shabad.

Gunas are happening, right here on earth, and are part of our equipment as we go through daily life. We are wide-awake in one sense (but confused in Maya) and sound asleep in another sense (distracted from awareness of a deeper awareness of Ik Oankaar, the eternal reality). 

Shabad Guru speaks of waking up from a nightmare not about moving from states of unconsciousness to consciousness. All of our conscious life is passed as if it is a nightmare without the Guru.

Guru Amardas says, Ang 651, Line 9



> ਰੇ ਜਨ ਉਥਾਰੈ ਦਬਿਓਹੁ ਸੁਤਿਆ ਗਈ ਵਿਹਾਇ ॥
> Re jan uthārai ḏabi▫ohu suṯi▫ā ga▫ī vihā▫e.
> O man, you have been tormented by a nightmare, and you have passed your life in sleep.



That is your whole life is a nightmare without the Guru.  Guru Nanak makes it clearer than clear 

Ang 1275, Line 4


> ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਸਮਝ ਨ ਹੋਵੀ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਦਬਿਆ ਛਾਪੈ ॥
> सतिगुर बाझहु समझ न होवी सभु जगु दबिआ छापै ॥
> Saṯgur bājẖahu samajẖ na hovī sabẖ jag ḏabi▫ā cẖẖāpai.
> Without the True Guru, there is no understanding. The whole world is buried under its nightmare.



Eclectic ideas from a broad-ranging, eastern teaching about consciousness should not be rolled together as a new ball of wax if we want to understand Shabad Guru. This kind of thinking is similar to the teachings of Helena Blavatsky and Annie Besant. It sounds more like "Sant Mat."  It is not "Gurmat."


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 3, 2012)

spnadmin said:


> Harcharanjitsinghdhillon ji
> 
> In your original post this is what you copied from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji:
> 
> ...


 


dear ji please try to understand when we speak about gunas there is no such thing as 4th stage.. in my above  shabad the fourth stage is mention, so the shabad is talking about consciousness not gunas..in consciousness yes there are 4 types.. why out of a sudden you are bringging Sant Mat into the subject.. the 4th stage is spoken in our sikh scriptures.. the subject on gunas i was planning to put it in a different article, not here or else confusion will take place. my intention were clean. sat sri akal


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 3, 2012)

what actually are the 3 qualities?  actually the above title i should change it to THE FOUR TYPES OF CONSCIOUSNESS? it was my mistake. sorry for it. sat sri akal


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## spnadmin (Dec 3, 2012)

harcharanjitsinghdhillon said:


> dear ji please try to understand *when we speak about gunas there is no such thing as 4th stage.*.
> I do understand very clearly. Turiya is not above, any step higher than the gunas. No argument on that from me. Turiya is not part of prakriti. I want to know why you are going from gunas to states of consciousness, when the tuk you are using has nothing to do with states of consciousness.
> 
> in my above  shabad the fourth stage is mention, so the shabad is talking about consciousness not gunas..
> ...




I have never said your intentions were not "clean." What is bothering me is the mixing and matching of ideas that are not part of the message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Nanak's message is to take the mystery out of spirituality. Not to make things more mysterious. Sant Mat comes in because this is how sant mat operates. If ideas seem compatible then they are blended together. Gunas in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji should be kept in the context of Gurmat, what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says.


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## spnadmin (Dec 3, 2012)

harcharanjitsinghdhillon said:


> what actually are the 3 qualities?  actually the above title i should change it to THE FOUR TYPES OF CONSCIOUSNESS? it was my mistake. sorry for it. sat sri akal



So if the thread title is changed to one about 4 types of consciousness, then the tuk about gunas will have to be deleted. Either way the discussion has to be very clear what is from Gurmat and what is coming from some other source.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Dec 3, 2012)

The GURMUKH via GURMATT discards MANMATT. Everyone else in this WORLD..here on EARTH in this LIFE as a HUMAN is caught in the MAYA JAAL Net...and is entrapped by the  three Gunns...while the perosn who discards MANMATT..acquirtes GURMATT becoems GURMUKH..which is the 4th State..detached form this spider web of Maya.

Spnadmin Ji has very aptly brought the Thread and its meanings back to the SHABAD .
Its becoming almost a fashion to use a "Shabad" as BAIT to fish in the ocean...and like the proverbial fisherman who keeps pulling in his Line and seeing shoes..rubber tires..plastic bags..etc etc "caught" on it....instead of the LIVE FISH he came to fish for...lots of people find it "interesting" to push the "fish" away and begin discussing the OLD SHOE that came up on the Line and still pretend that we are still ON THE SHABAD SUBJECT. THROW the SHOE BACK or discard it on the beach..and concentrate on the FISH.


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## Luckysingh (Dec 3, 2012)

I can see what's going on here!!!

The shabad or tuk in question can be looked at from 2 different angles from what I gather.

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥
त्रै गुण माइआ मोहु है गुरमुखि चउथा पदु पाइ ॥
Ŧarai guṇ mā▫i▫ā moh hai gurmukẖ cẖa▫uthā paḏ pā▫e.
The three qualities hold people in attachment to *Maya*. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness

The first part is referring to the world and people being under the influence of the 3 qualitied influence of maya.
The 2nd part is referring to 'chautha pad' which is infact the 4th state of consciousness. -This is telling us that a gurmukh who can obtain this 4th state is FREE from the 3 qualitied influence of maya.

-The 3 qualitied maya are NOT stages of consciousness or vice versa.
The 4th state is unrelated to the 3 qualites of maya, as it is free from any.
We cause confusion when we mix 3 qualites with a 4th or 3 consciousness's with a 4th.-
THIS IS NOT WHAT THE SHABAD IS REFERRING TO.

Ang 604 can answer the above
<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਵਰਤਹਿ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਤਿ ਖੋਈ ॥ 

Ŧarai guṇ varṯėh sagal sansārā ha▫umai vicẖ paṯ kẖo▫ī. 

The three qualities permeate the whole world; acting in ego, it loses its honor. 


</TD></TR><TR><TD>ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਚੀਨੈ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੩॥ 

Gurmukẖ hovai cẖa▫uthā paḏ cẖīnai rām nām sukẖ ho▫ī. ||3|| 

But one who becomes Gurmukh comes to realize the fourth state of celestial bliss; he finds peace through the Name of the Lord. ||3|| 
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

We can see that the tuk in OP can be discussed in 2 different aspects, EITHER the gunas or qualities of maya OR the chautha pad- 4th state of consciousness.
They are not related but are completely separate from each other and this is what the shabad tells us.

As far as I see, HSDji is not wrong and neither is spnadminji.
We just need to address the full meaning properly.


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## spnadmin (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks for persevering with the thread Luckysingh ji. This problem starts with the posting of a single tuk and taking off from there, instead of posting the entire shabad to get to the meaning of the shabad. Posting a full shabad is not only a forum rule, it is also the only way to find answers to questions like "What are the 3 qualities?" The title suggests we are all going to explore the qualities/gunas, and not consciousness. When I posted the shabad from Kabir ji to answer the manifest question "What are the 3 qualities?" it was ignored and the discussion broke out of the gate in the totally different direction of levels of consciousness. Serves me right for taking the thread title/question seriously. lol 

But there is the word "turiya" dangling alone all by itself in a single tuk that is all by itself. So we are off and running in a different direction.... but the full shabad would have made the meaning clear. 

More than a matter of who is right and who is wrong, is the matter of what Shabad Guru tells us. After a while I get the impression that understanding Shabad Guru is no longer important; that posters really want to freely re-invent Guru Nanak's message. I am finding this all over the Internet btw. For example, something very similar can be found at this link. The article is about meditation. http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Meditation,_the_doorway_to_higher_consciousness It is not Gurmat, but personal theorizing. And it is all over the place.


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## aristotle (Dec 3, 2012)

aristotle said:


> In Samkhya philosophy, there are three major guṇas that serve as the fundamental operating principles or 'tendencies' of prakṛti (universal nature) which are called: *sattva guṇa*,* rajas guṇa*, and* tamas guṇa*.   The three primary gunas are generally accepted to be associated with   creation (sattva), preservation (rajas), and destruction (tamas).
> (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guṇa)
> 
> ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਹਜੁ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇ ॥ (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Pg 68)
> ...




What I really meant by correlating the concept of _Gunas_ with the _Hindu Trimurti_ was completing the metaphysical theory proposed by Hinduism. 



> Brahma also represents the quality of passion or desire (rajo-guna), which is responsible for the creation of the world.
> 
> No living being can exist without water, which sustains life, and therefore preserves it. It is represented as Vishnu, the preserver. He also represents the quality of mercy (satva-guna), because of which the world is preserved.
> 
> Fire destroys life, and is responsible for the destruction of the world . It is represented as Shiva, the destroyer. He also represents the quality of darkness and wrath (tamo-guna), which is responsible for the annihilation of the universe.



Guru Sahib of course never attached any spiritual significance with the Trimurti, or any other Hindu entity in that regard. When one worships the Akal Purakh, worshiping these Gods/Goddesses is completely out of question.

Just for clarification folks, carry on with the discussion.....


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## aristotle (Dec 3, 2012)

* 





Luckysingh said:


> The 3 qualitied maya are NOT stages of consciousness or vice versa.[/SIZE]
> The 4th state is unrelated to the 3 qualites of maya, as it is free from any.
> We cause confusion when we mix 3 qualites with a 4th or 3 consciousness's with a 4th.-
> [/SIZE]
> They are not related but are completely separate from each other and this is what the shabad tells us.



The 'three' qualities may very well represent the 'three faced' maya, the delusional qualities which prevent the attainment of spiritual bliss:


> ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇਆ ਹਉਮੈ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਮਾਏ|| (Guru Granth Sahib, Pg 604)<br>The *three-faced Maya* had led them astray in doubt, and they are snared by the noose of egotism.


The_ 'Chautha Pad'_, wherever it is mentioned, is described as a cut above the rest, certainly cannot be included in the spectrum of the three _Gunas_ (Recall, in _Japji Sahib_, the _'Khands'_ are mentioned as to be a part of a smooth continuity, not as is the 'three' qualities, and the 'fourth' celestial bliss)

* Bhai Randhir Singh Ji in his book, 'ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਅਧਿਆਤਮ ਕਰਮ ਫ਼ਿਲਾਸਫ਼ੀ', directly relates to the 'Chautha pad' as the 'Turia Pad'(ਤੁਰੀਆ ਪਦ), different from the three 'Karm Pads'(ਕਰਮ ਪਦ) of _Maya_.

* 





> ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਓਨੁ ਤੁਰੀਆ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ (Guru Granth Sahib, Page 509)<br>He created the *root of Maya*, and the *peace obtained in the fourth state of consciousness.* ||2||


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 4, 2012)

spnadmin said:


> I have never said your intentions were not "clean." What is bothering me is the mixing and matching of ideas that are not part of the message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Nanak's message is to take the mystery out of spirituality. Not to make things more mysterious. Sant Mat comes in because this is how sant mat operates. If ideas seem compatible then they are blended together. Gunas in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji should be kept in the context of Gurmat, what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says.


 

just say for example about gunas what is mention in our sikh scriptures generally is it all drops under maya.. but it does not explain deeply the meaning of gunas deeply in detail.. what is raj, sat and tam is not explain in our scriptures.. so i have to search for some information elsewhere. i am doing this because there are new comers also reading my above article so they need to know the detail meaning.. the same thing goes to consiousness, mentioned in our scripures is the 4th stage.. so newcomers has to know what is the 1st stage, 2nd stage 3rd stage and 4th stage.. so in order to explain to new comers we have to get some information from somewhere else.. detail explaination in detail is not available in our scriptures.. for experts there will be no probelm they can understand it, but how about new comers? an approach is needed. sat sri aksl


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 4, 2012)

aristotle said:


> In Samkhya philosophy, there are three major guṇas that serve as the fundamental operating principles or 'tendencies' of prakṛti (universal nature) which are called: *sattva guṇa*,* rajas guṇa*, and* tamas guṇa*.   The three primary gunas are generally accepted to be associated with   creation (sattva), preservation (rajas), and destruction (tamas).
> (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guṇa)
> 
> ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਹਜੁ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇ ॥ (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Pg 68)
> ...



Aristotle ji,
So far so good.

 


> Guru Sahib clearly talks about the tripartite 'Gunas' as described in the Vedic and Samkhya philosophy and how believing in them one is led astray.


This is an incorrect interpretation. 
In Guru Granth Sahib, Trai Gun (Three Qualities) are a real part of the world and effect everything in it. It's not that believing them leads one astray, it's because we are born into a world that consists of the three qualities and don't know of a world without, that leads one away from God. The idea is to go beyond the them through the grace of the Guru to reach God.

The fourth state is that state which is accessed when one goes beyond the Trai Gun as you later pointed out.
 
*ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ* ਮਾਇਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਕੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਵਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਤਰੀਐ ਰੇ ॥
त्रै गुण माइआ ब्रहम की कीन्ही कहहु कवन बिधि तरीऐ रे ॥
*Ŧarai guṇ* mā▫i▫ā barahm kī kīnĥī kahhu kavan biḏẖ ṯarī▫ai re.
God has created Maya of the three qualities; tell me, how can it be crossed over?

ਘੂਮਨ ਘੇਰ ਅਗਾਹ ਗਾਖਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਰੀਐ ਰੇ ॥੨॥
घूमन घेर अगाह गाखरी गुर सबदी पारि उतरीऐ रे ॥२॥
Gẖūman gẖer agāh gākẖrī gur sabḏī pār uṯrī▫ai re. ||2||
The whirlpool is awesome and unfathomable; only through the Word of the Guru's Shabad is one carried across. ||2|| 

Guru Granth Sahib page 404





> _How should one be led astray by this simple concept of birth, sustenance and destruction??__That's the big metaphysical question in this..._


Not the concept that leads one astray, it's the qualities themselves. Guru Granth Sahib says they are the reality of the real world (Maya), created by God. It is his command that we are engrossed in them and it is He who takes us out by His own will.

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:

ਓਅੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕੀਓ ਅਕਾਰਾ ॥
ओअं गुरमुखि कीओ अकारा ॥
O▫aŉ gurmukẖ kī▫o akārā.
The Gurmukh realizes that: From the syllable Om comes the world of forms.

ਏਕਹਿ ਸੂਤਿ ਪਰੋਵਨਹਾਰਾ ॥
एकहि सूति परोवनहारा ॥
Ėkėh sūṯ parovanhārā.
He strung it upon His one thread.

ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੰ ॥
भिंन भिंन त्रै गुण बिसथारं ॥
Bẖinn bẖinn ṯarai guṇ bisthāraŉ.
He created the diverse expanse of the three qualities.

ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਤੇ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਰੰ ॥
निरगुन ते सरगुन द्रिसटारं ॥
Nirgun ṯe sargun ḏaristāraŉ.
From no-quality, He appeared as all qualities.

ਸਗਲ ਭਾਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਉਪਾਇਓ ॥
सगल भाति करि करहि उपाइओ ॥
Sagal bẖāṯ kar karahi upā▫i▫o.
The Creator has created the creation of all sorts.

ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਮਨ ਮੋਹੁ ਬਢਾਇਓ ॥
जनम मरन मन मोहु बढाइओ ॥
Janam maran man moh badẖā▫i▫o.
The attachment of the mind has led to birth and death.

ਦੁਹੂ ਭਾਤਿ ਤੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਾਰਾ ॥
दुहू भाति ते आपि निरारा ॥
Ḏuhū bẖāṯ ṯe āp nirārā.
He Himself is above both, untouched and unaffected.

ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
नानक अंतु न पारावारा ॥२॥
Nānak anṯ na pārāvārā. ||2||
O Nanak, He has no end or limitation. ||2||
Guru Granth Sahib page 250
 
Duality is not something you do, it is the basic property of the world.
ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
तुधु आपे आपु उपाइआ ॥
Ŧuḏẖ āpe āp upā▫i▫ā.
You Yourself created Yourself;

ਦੂਜਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਕਰਿ ਦਿਖਲਾਇਆ ॥
दूजा खेलु करि दिखलाइआ ॥
Ḏūjā kẖel kar ḏikẖlā▫i▫ā.
You created the play of duality and showed it (to the enlightened ones).

ਸਭੁ ਸਚੋ ਸਚੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੈ ਬੁਝਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੨੦॥
सभु सचो सचु वरतदा जिसु भावै तिसै बुझाइ जीउ ॥२०॥
Sabẖ sacẖo sacẖ varaṯḏā jis bẖāvai ṯisai bujẖā▫e jī▫o. ||20||
The Truest of the True is pervading everywhere; He instructs those with whom He is pleased. ||20||
Guru granth Sahib page 74

Through the blessing of the Guru and meditation on God's name can such wisdom and understanding be obtained.
ਸਦਾ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਰਾਮ ਰਸਿ ਰਾਤੇ ॥
सदा अनंदु राम रसि राते ॥
Saḏā anand rām ras rāṯe.
Eternally blissful are those who are imbued with the sublime essence of the Lord.

ਹਿਰਦੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਗੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾਤੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
हिरदै नामु दुबिधा मनि भागी हरि हरि अम्रितु पी त्रिपताते ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Hirḏai nām ḏubiḏẖā man bẖāgī har har amriṯ pī ṯaripṯāṯe. ||1|| rahā▫o.
The Naam, the Name of the Lord, fills their hearts, and duality runs away from their minds. Drinking in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Lord, Har, Har, they are satisfied. ||1||Pause||

ਆਪੇ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਾਜੀ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਏ ॥
आपे पारब्रहमु स्रिसटि जिनि साजी सिरि सिरि धंधै लाए ॥
Āpe pārbarahm sarisat jin sājī sir sir ḏẖanḏẖai lā▫e.
The Supreme Lord God Himself created the Universe; He links each and every person to their tasks.

ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਕੀਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਦੂਜੈ ਲਾਏ ॥੨॥
माइआ मोहु कीआ जिनि आपे आपे दूजै लाए ॥२॥
Mā▫i▫ā moh kī▫ā jin āpe āpe ḏūjai lā▫e. ||2||
He Himself created love and attachment to Maya; He Himself attaches the mortals to duality. ||2||
Guru Granth Sahib page 1131




> _I request fellow SPNers to shed some light on this..._


What you are witnessing there is the European attempts to make various Indian religions into one religion. lol It won't work.

Let's just stick to discussing Sikh philosophy.


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## BhagatSingh (Dec 4, 2012)

HSD ji,
The gunas and states are two different topics of discussion. It will get confusing if we bring up both at the same time. 

My apologies for my first response, it is off-topic.


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 4, 2012)

dear all members
                        ok no probelm we can take this thread related discussion to gunas.. yes both we cannot discuss.. thanks


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 4, 2012)

dear members
                   sorry it was my mistake, actually it is gunas.. sorry for that. 



http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart299.htm

The Holy people remain unaffected by Maya because they do not live in the menacing body-consciousness. Here the SGGS is not talking about the bogus Holy ones (saints, _Gurus, Mahaatamaans, Gurmukhs _etc.) — swindlers or religious con-artists, merely interested in money and sex. These fake ones take advantage of the worldly consciousness of the people and cheat them. The reality is, in the worldly consciousness of desires and attachments, we cannot differentiate between the real and the fake ones (ਸੱਤ and ਅਸੱਤ). The entire SGGS sings the Glory of the Holy. Transcending the three _Guna_ of Maya, they are established in the Fourth State (_Chauthaa Pada_) of Consciousness. If one desire to read more about the enduring qualities or values of the real Holy people, read, for example, "_Gaurhee Sukhmani Mahalaa_ 5" (sggs 262).


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## spnadmin (Dec 4, 2012)

This is how brilliant Guruji is...saying the gunas are part of Maya and Maya is one big guna to overcome. Thank you for posting that 





> Transcending the three Guna of Maya, they are established in the Fourth State (Chauthaa Pada) of Consciousness. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 262).



harcharjisinghdhillon ji Thank you for this. But I also want to repeat for the "newcomers" who need "detailed' understanding, the details come from SGGS. Without reading shabads and concentrating on the details of the shabads, asking questions about the words and phrases there, no foundation is being laid for a strong discussion. Who are the "experts" in the end. If someone is writing and not taking all of the shabad into his thoughts then we are all being fooled.


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## Luckysingh (Dec 4, 2012)

> What you are witnessing there is the European attempts to make various Indian religions into one religion. lol It won't work.
> 
> Let's just stick to discussing Sikh philosophy.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


 
Absolutely !!
I can see that the gurmat view on these 3 gunas tells us that it is the world and his way. Maybe an easier way of looking at it is by considering all matter or material nature as 'maya' and it consisting of these 3 qualities.

Minus these attributes of maya from us and then we are left with the pure consciousness or the true nature of our jeeva (god-jyot..etc).
Like Bhagatji stated, they are a part of us. It is by his will that we allow ourselves to be conditioned by them.
Imagine the drop of water that comes down in it's pure form before it hits the ground. Once it hits the earth it becomes conditioned to whatever material it may be in contact with and it becomes limited. Whatever physical property the material will have is what will control the drop of water, ie.. whether it evaporates or fuses with other material.
-In the same way, we have our pure form or jeeva and now we are conditioned by the matter we live in(maya).

*Saatav or sat* _is the goodness, free from sinful actions and the better quality of us. _
_-Acting in accordance with pure truth and good._
_-There are no actions for self gain._

*Raajas or raaj* _is the passion, the unlimited desires, attachment to mundane objects. _
_-It binds the jeeva to material mentality. _
_-It gives the mindset the charcteristics of passion, selfishness,fear, greed, lust, power struggle, competing with others, status and evil instincts. _
_-Actions done for self gain._
_-It is this quality that causes us all miseries,sorrows,depression etc.._

*Taamas or tam* _is simply Ignorance. _
_--This quality is what causes the spiritual ignorance._
_- One is unable to attain proper understanding of matters. _
_-It causes delusion, fears, misconceptions, character weaknesses, carelessness, inactivity, laziness..etc.._
_-This quality is what causes us to search in outer objects for happpiness and liberation._
_- It is what causes us to attain comfort from drugs, alcohol, taboo activities, eating for comfort, buying for comfort..etc... This is because the person takes themselves as limited and mortal and intends to do these things for short term for a quick fix! _
_-The person is usually very reluctant to progress or explore any spiritual undertstanding and this quality effects knowledge of the being and prevents them from spiritual realization._
_- A taamasic person is full of wrong ideas and has very little interest associating with spiritual or enlightened beings._
_- The person is also quite body conscious like raajas._

The taamas and raajas go together quite well like 2 sides to a coin.
We all have these 3 qualities and they vary between each and every one of us. It is the variance in degrees and their intertwining that defines our maya or material characters.
To be able to identify them and then to realise them are the steps we should take if one wants to progress on the spiritual ladder.


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Dec 5, 2012)

aristotle said:


> In Samkhya philosophy, there are three major guṇas that serve as the fundamental operating principles or 'tendencies' of prakṛti (universal nature) which are called: *sattva guṇa*,* rajas guṇa*, and* tamas guṇa*. The three primary gunas are generally accepted to be associated with creation (sattva), preservation (rajas), and destruction (tamas).
> (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guṇa)
> 
> ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਗੁਣਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਹਜੁ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇ ॥ (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Pg 68)
> ...


 
dear ji
to my understanding any activities done on this 3 gunas, true mukti cannot be earned, and we will become slaves to cycles of birth and death.. destiny in sikhism is to get freed from death.. so by only indulging in this 3 gunas we cannot find mukti.. the whole controller of this gunas is the mind.. when the mind is completely surrendered in deep meditation with the help of NAAM, then we are liberated, freed from death. no more death..so in other words we can say this 3 gunas are the cause of pain and suffering, always facing death.. further more maya is not eternal in sikhism thought, so no point in making a destiny to maya.. there will be always death in maya.. in the region of maya, the most highest reward that we can earn from this gunas life after life is a human birth.. after all the goodness done life after life, i had already earned this body, so now is to earn mukti thru the grace of waheguru. human birth is a channel for path of mukti.. thanks and sat sri akal


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## spnadmin (Dec 5, 2012)

harcharanjitsinghdhillon said:


> dear ji
> to my understanding any activities done on this 3 gunas, true mukti cannot be earned, and we will become slaves to cycles of birth and death.. destiny in sikhism is to get freed from death.. so by only indulging in this 3 gunas we cannot find mukti.. the whole controller of this gunas is the mind.. when the mind is completely surrendered in deep meditation with the help of NAAM, then we are liberated, freed from death. no more death..so in other words we can say this 3 gunas are the cause of pain and suffering, always facing death.. further more maya is not eternal in sikhism thought, so no point in making a destiny to maya.. there will be always death in maya.. in the region of maya, the most highest reward that we can earn from this gunas life after life is a human birth.. after all the goodness done life after life, i had already earned this body, so now is to earn mukti thru the grace of waheguru. human birth is a channel for path of mukti.. thanks and sat sri akal



It is my opinion that this is not true. I do not think we can go on believing that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is  the culmination of hundreds of years of learnings from the vedas and upanishads. The "whole controller" is not the mind. The controller is Waheguru.


ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੯ ॥ 
गउड़ी महला ९ ॥ 
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 9. 
Gauree, Ninth Mehl:

ਸਾਧੋ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਕੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਉ ॥ 
साधो गोबिंद के गुन गावउ ॥ 
Sāḏẖo gobinḏ ke gun gāva▫o. 
Holy Saadhus: *sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe.*

ਮਾਨਸ ਜਨਮੁ ਅਮੋਲਕੁ ਪਾਇਓ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਕਾਹਿ ਗਵਾਵਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ 
मानस जनमु अमोलकु पाइओ बिरथा काहि गवावउ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Mānas janam amolak pā▫i▫o birthā kāhi gavāva▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
*You have obtained the priceless jewel of this human life; *why are you uselessly wasting it? ||1||Pause||

ਪਤਿਤ ਪੁਨੀਤ ਦੀਨ ਬੰਧ ਹਰਿ ਸਰਨਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਤੁਮ ਆਵਉ ॥ 
पतित पुनीत दीन बंध हरि सरनि ताहि तुम आवउ ॥ 
Paṯiṯ punīṯ ḏīn banḏẖ har saran ṯāhi ṯum āva▫o. 
*He is the Purifier of sinners,* the Friend of the poor. Come, and enter the Lord's Sanctuary.

ਗਜ ਕੋ ਤ੍ਰਾਸੁ ਮਿਟਿਓ ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਤੁਮ ਕਾਹੇ ਬਿਸਰਾਵਉ ॥੧॥
 गज को त्रासु मिटिओ जिह सिमरत तुम काहे बिसरावउ ॥१॥ 
Gaj ko ṯarās miti▫o jih simraṯ ṯum kāhe bisrāva▫o. ||1|| 
*Remembering Him, the elephant's fear was removed;* so why do you forget Him? ||1||

ਤਜਿ ਅਭਿਮਾਨ ਮੋਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਫੁਨਿ ਭਜਨ ਰਾਮ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਵਉ ॥ 
तजि अभिमान मोह माइआ फुनि भजन राम चितु लावउ ॥ 
Ŧaj abẖimān moh mā▫i▫ā fun bẖajan rām cẖiṯ lāva▫o. 
Renounce your egotistical pride and your emotional attachment to Maya; *focus your consciousness on the Lord's meditation.*

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਹਤ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪੰਥ ਇਹੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਇ ਤੁਮ ਪਾਵਉ ॥੨॥੫॥ 
नानक कहत मुकति पंथ इहु गुरमुखि होइ तुम पावउ ॥२॥५॥ Nānak kahaṯ mukaṯ panth ih gurmukẖ ho▫e ṯum pāva▫o. ||2||5|| 
Says Nanak, *this is the path to liberation.* Become Gurmukh, and attain it. ||2||5||

The elephant is freed from the mud of attachments by the divine. He does not free himself. The elephant recognizes his dependence on the divine, not on his own efforts. This is the key to shabad guru. You can try all sorts of things, but you are not in charge.

Notice in the shabad that human life is a precious thing. It is not an evil thing. It is just that we get stuck in its gunas, just like the elephant. The shabad says *He* is the purifier. We are not the purifiers of ourselves. We renounce our ego and emotional attachment to Maya, but ridding ourselves of attachment to Maya or her gunas is not the sufficient condition for liberation. We must focus on Gobind to become Gurmukh.  Gurmukh means we turn our face, give our total concentration, to the Guru.

Even the sadhu must call out just like the elephant. In the vedic tradition, or some forms of them, if *you* meditate in order to free yourself of attachment to Maya/gunas, then you will achieve mukhti. In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, if you do simran of the Lord of the Universe Gobind then the gunas will no longer enslave you. One is a message of *self*-purification; the other says if you let *Gobind *help you, there is no possibility for the gunas to be your trap. *Waheguru does the work of liberation if you call out* That is your job. You are already the elephant.


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## spnadmin (Dec 5, 2012)

spnadmin said:


> Even the sadhu must call out just like the elephant. In the vedic tradition, or some forms of them, if *you* meditate in order to free yourself of attachment to Maya/gunas, then you will achieve mukhti. In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, if you do simran of the Lord of the Universe Gobind then the gunas will no longer enslave you.  One is a message of *self*-purification; the other says if you let *Gobind *help you, there is no possibility for the gunas to be your trap. *Waheguru does the work of liberation if you call out* That is your job. You are already the elephant.




Sorry. Self-purification is ego working. Gobind-purification is the way out of the gunas and on to the Guru.


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## harcharanjitsinghdhillon (Jan 4, 2013)

dear all members
             sat sri akal.. please give some examples activities that are related to 3 gunas or the 3 qualities,, raj, tam and satvic... so newcomers can understand what we are talking about.. to me talking about health, goodness and badnes plus other duality subjects, what is hot and cold, what is right and wrong, are all under the 3 gunas or qualities.. Please give more examples? we are suppose to rise above 3 gunas


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## Luckysingh (Jan 4, 2013)

harcharanjitsinghdhillon said:


> dear all members
> sat sri akal.. please give some examples activities that are related to 3 gunas or the 3 qualities,, raj, tam and satvic... so newcomers can understand what we are talking about.. to me talking about health, goodness and badnes plus other duality subjects, what is hot and cold, what is right and wrong, are all under the 3 gunas or qualities.. Please give more examples? we are suppose to rise above 3 gunas


 
I explained this and simplified them myself in the above thread.
The whole maya as we perceive it falls under these qualities.
Even the foods we eat can be classed under these headings of sattvic, rajatisc and tamatisc.


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## spnadmin (Jan 4, 2013)

If there is nothing new to add then we have probably exhausted the subject. Time to close the thread. Further discussion of the 3 qualities on any future threads should add to our knowledge rather than run in circles. Moderator or admin will be able to write a summary of the discussion, if they choose to do so, after the thread is closed. spnadmin


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