# Why No Meat Served In Gurdwara



## Astroboy (Nov 19, 2007)

After reading the thread, "Fools who wrangle over flesh" - my question is:-
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

Why no meat is served in Gurdwaras ?

Could it be because of this :-

Health Benefits of A Vegetarian Diet | DoItYourself.com


----------



## Astroboy (Nov 19, 2007)

GoVeg.com // Agriprocessors // What the Investigator Saw
GoVeg.com // Cruelty to Animals: Mechanized Madness


----------



## kds1980 (Nov 19, 2007)

Santokh singh ji

First of all there is no evidence that whether meat was banned in langar or not.Many sikh historians beleive that it was the influence of vaishnavism that meat got banned in langar.
also did you missed my thread on the baptism of sikh women.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/18061-asaitic-journal-1828-baptism-sikh-women.html
 While he receives this water, he repeats five
tiroes : " wah ! guru jida klialsa/ wah! guru jida Â¡ihateh/"* The grant'hi
next demands bis name, which, if insignificant in sound or meaning, is
changed for another, and the word sinyha^- added. *After this, a meat
offering is prepared, called harÃ¡ prosada, composed of clarified butter,
flour, sugar, milk, and various kinds of fruits mixed and baked on the fire.
The grant'hi now worships the book (the adi-grant'ha, or " chief book," the
depository of the sikh creed and law), and presents to it some of the meat
offering; the rest of which is offered to Akala Purusha (a name of Narayana,
the supreme spirit), in the name of Nanak.f accompanied by a prayer to
Govinda Singha, that his blessing may rest upon the person now becoming a
sikh. At the close of these ceremonies, the food is distributed amongst the
spectators of every caste* ; and the grant'hi addresses a short discourse to
the disciple respecting the religion of the sikhs, and teaches him an
incantation, by repeating it in his presence till it be learnt, or else he
gives it him in writing.

so it looks like that in 1828 meat was not banned in langar.


----------



## kds1980 (Nov 19, 2007)

begum said:


> After reading the thread, "Fools who wrangle over flesh" - my question is:-
> 
> Why no meat is served in Gurdwaras ?
> 
> ...



As far as health arguement is concerned meat eating communities were always considered stronger than vegetarian communities.

ReligiousFervor.com » AMAR DAS, RAM DAS, AND ARJAN

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 They yielded ; and after this many thousands were baptized. Gobind Singh then sent to the Hill Rajahs, beseeching them to receive this baptism as a means of protecting themselves against the Turks. The Rajahs replied : ” Each Turk can eat a whole goat. How can we, who only eat rice, cope with such strong men ?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It shows that how much the power and strength of turks terrified vegetarian hindu's .t


----------



## Astroboy (Nov 19, 2007)

My question still remains unanswered : Why don't Gurdwaras serve meat ?

VegetableCruelty.com

My point ? If vegetables are living and feel pain just like animals, then why not serve meat and vegetables in Gurdwaras ?

Is this a psychological question ? No.


----------



## kds1980 (Nov 19, 2007)

begum said:


> My question still remains unanswered : Why don't Gurdwaras serve meat ?
> 
> VegetableCruelty.com
> 
> ...



The best answer to your question is that langar is for everybody and there is no way a vegetarian is going to eat langar with non vegetarians.and also this custom is now deeply rooted in the mentality of sikhs so there is no way it is going to be changed.


----------



## Astroboy (Nov 19, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> The best answer to your question is that langar is for everybody and there is no way a vegetarian is going to eat langar with non vegetarians.and also this custom is now deeply rooted in the mentality of sikhs so there is no way it is going to be changed.


 

Could it be that it is a Sikh tradition from the times Guru Angad Dev Ji ?
Maybe our Guru's had the far insight to choose vegetarian which has remained in practice till today. Since Sikhism can be practised by anyone who still follows his own faith, today, many Muslims choose not to eat meat.
Maura R. O'Connor: Islamic Vegetarians Fight the System


----------



## kds1980 (Nov 19, 2007)

begum said:


> Could it be that it is a Sikh tradition from the times Guru Angad Dev Ji ?
> Maybe our Guru's had the far insight to choose vegetarian which has remained in practice till today. Since Sikhism can be practised by anyone who still follows his own faith, today, many Muslims choose not to eat meat.
> Maura R. O'Connor: Islamic Vegetarians Fight the System



The Sikhism Home Page
A History of the Sikh People by Dr. Gopal Singh, World Sikh University Press, Delhi
Commenting on meat being served in the langar during the time of Guru Angad: However, it is strange that now-a-days in the Community-Kitchen attached to the Sikh temples, and called the Guru's Kitchen (or, Guru-ka-langar) meat-dishes are not served at all. May be, it is on account of its being, perhaps, expensive, or not easy to keep for long. Or, perhaps the Vaishnava tradition is too strong to be shaken off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to one sakhi meat was served in langar at the time of guru angad dev ji


----------



## Astroboy (Nov 19, 2007)

World Vegetarian Congress 1957

Miyan Mir was a Sufi Saint.


----------



## Astroboy (Nov 19, 2007)

Here's an excerpt from : Langar - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

When serving the Langar, the servers must observe strict rules of cleanliness and hygiene. Servers should not touch the serving utensils to the plates of those they serve. When serving foods by hand, such as chapatis or fruit, the servers’ hands should not touch the hand or plate of those they are serving. Those serving should wait until all others have been completely served before they sit down to eat themselves. It is advisable not to leave any leftovers. 
Since some Sikhs believe that it is against the basics of Sikhi to eat meat, fish or eggs, hence non-vegetarian foods of this sort is neither served nor brought onto the Gurdwara premises. Others believe that the reason vegetarian food is served in Gurdwaras is so that people of all backgrounds can consume the food without any anxiety about their particular dietary requirement and to promote complete equality among all the peoples of the world. Alcoholic and narcotic substances are stringently against the Sikh diet, hence these with any meat products are *strictly* not allowed on Gurdwara premises


----------



## kds1980 (Nov 19, 2007)

my personal views are that diet is an environmental issue.sikhism  started in punjab and  
majority of sikhs are punjabi's .There was never shortage of vegetarian food in punjab and due to influence of vaishnavism sikhs .The practice of vegetarian langar got mass acceptance.Now if in future poor fishermen of coastal area   will embrace sikhism then they will obviously  serve fish in langar as fish in coastal area is much cheaper than vegetables


----------



## Astroboy (Nov 19, 2007)

Why are 3HO and Gora Sikhs vegetarians ?
Why are Nirmala Sikhs vegetarians ?
Why are Namdharis vegetarians ?
Why are Radha Soamis vegetarians ?
Why are AKJ's vegetarians ?
Why are Sufis vegetarians ?


----------



## Randip Singh (Nov 19, 2007)

begum said:


> After reading the thread, "Fools who wrangle over flesh" - my question is:-





begum said:


> Why no meat is served in Gurdwaras ?
> 
> Could it be because of this :-
> 
> Health Benefits of A Vegetarian Diet | DoItYourself.com


 
There are two separate issue here:

1) Why meat is not served in Gurudwara?

2) Health Benefits of Vegetarianism?

So on issue 1:

Meat is not served in Gurudwara's because one has to remember that a Gurudwara is open to all. This means it has to accommodate for different religions, belief's, etc. This in effect means people have different dietary requirements. A safe option and compromise between different faiths was vegetarian. Both Hindu and Muslim found it acceptable. If you study the history of the Gurudwara''s (or Dharamsala's prior to this you will have your answer).

Saying that there are Gurudwara's in India eg Gwalior where meat is served on occaisions. Nihungs on occaision serve meat as Mahaprashad at langaar.

Issue 2:

Is vegetarianism healthy? Yes and no. As an ex-body builder I have found that moderate amount of lean red meat (say once a month), fresh fruit, vegetables, lean chicken, eggs etc can enhance people health and physical performance.

On a side note there are some very unhealthy vegetarian foods (which particularly Indian people eat), ghee, halwa, nuts etc. This maybe the reason why hearth problems are common amongst Indo people.


----------



## Randip Singh (Nov 19, 2007)

begum said:


> Why are 3HO and Gora Sikhs vegetarians ?
> Why are Nirmala Sikhs vegetarians ?
> Why are Namdharis vegetarians ?
> Why are Radha Soamis vegetarians ?
> Why are AKJ's vegetarians ?


 
These are all cults heavily influenced by Vaishnavism. If you read into Sikh history the real split amonst Vegetarian and Meat Eating Sikhs started with Bandha Bahadhur who who was heavily influenced by Vaishnavism.

This ineffect caused a rift in the Khalsa with the Khalsa splitting into Bandhi Khalsa and "Tat" Khalsa. This was reconciled but this rift appears every 60 to 70 years or so. We are going through a rift at the moment.



begum said:


> Why are Sufis vegetarians ?


 
Was Ibn al Ghazli a vegetarian? Sheikh Farid? The Naqusbandi Order?

I think some Sufi's are vegetarian but not all.


----------



## Randip Singh (Nov 19, 2007)

begum said:


> My question still remains unanswered : Why don't Gurdwaras serve meat ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The Vashnavite belief to Karma and reincarnation is markedly different from that of the Sikh one.....

The Vaishnavite belief is that there is some order or Karm....i.e. mineral to vegetable to animal then human.........and because the animal is closer to human if we eat it we incur more sins in terms of Karma.

The Sikh view is that we can be mineral then human................we can be vegtable then human.......we can be animal then human.......there is no order or additional sin placed on eating an animal or vegetable..........

*On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written: *

_ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5._
_ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa._
_ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa._
_ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o._
_ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o._
_mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa_. _chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa._ rahaa-o. 
_ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa._
_ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa._
_ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa._
_lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa._
_saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat._
_kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat._
_ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan._
_jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan._
_avar na doojaa karnai jog._
_taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay._
_kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay._

_Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl_: 
_In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;_
_in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer._
_In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake._
_In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse._
_Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him_.
_After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you._ Pause 
*In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;*
*in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;*
*in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;*
*you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations.*
*Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.*
_Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har._
_Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance._
_Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord._
_Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord._
_No one else can do anything at all._
_We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself._
_Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har._
*Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji* 

Now coming to the question of pain which is an entirely different discussion....please define Pain? Is Pain more or less when I cut my leg or when I see someone starving on tv? In order to feel pain to you have to be conscious of your existence? Are animals conscious of their existance? Are plants conscious of their existence? What is the Sikh view of pain? Sadna was a butcher and yet his Sloks are included in the SGGS Ji. Why is this?


----------



## Astroboy (Nov 19, 2007)

Thanks for your contributions kds ji and randip singh ji. 

My doubts still exist because Sikhs are saying it is OK to eat meat and at the same time are tolerant to other sects who come to the gurdwaras - by opting to offer vegan _langgar_ (which is acceptable to all). Probably no emphasis was made by Sikh Gurus on choice of food - but Sikh Rehit Maryada does mention the method of slaughter of animals. 

While this is being followed as a standard, no mention has been made about what kind of meat is forbidden. On the other hand, almost all "cults" have their maryada of "strict vegetarianism". These sects/cults are not interested in the spirit of the Khalsa/Millitary. They are passive in nature. Sheep-like nature. 

So are Sikhs concluding that they're better off than all the vegans because of their balance in miri and piri ?


----------



## Randip Singh (Nov 19, 2007)

begum said:


> Thanks for your contributions kds ji and randip singh ji.





begum said:


> My doubts still exist because Sikhs are saying it is OK to eat meat and at the same time are tolerant to other sects who come to the gurdwaras - by opting to offer vegan _langgar_ (which is acceptable to all). Probably no emphasis was made by Sikh Gurus on choice of food - but Sikh Rehit Maryada does mention the method of slaughter of animals.




The Sikh diet is not quite "veganesque" as we have a lot of milk products (and we all know the process by which milk is obtained…..hardly pure vegetarian).

I think you need to look at the basics of Sikhism and the historical context in which langaar was set up. Muslims and Hindu's at each others throats. Various castes at each other throats. Many sects of Hinduism at each others throats.

Guru Nanak tried to get these people to sit together on an equal footing……and what better way than to have a communal kitchen……but then the question of what food to have arose, and logic would state that a vegetarian compromise was seen so. Saying this there ARE Gurudwara's in India where meat IS served as Langaar. So there is obviously no taboo on meat. Also I would put no faith in sikiwiki (a terrible site), which is run by 3HO and Gnssj.

The Rehit Maryada interestingly says what type of animal should not be eaten i.e. Kuttha or that which has had some rituals done over its slaughter.



begum said:


> While this is being followed as a standard, no mention has been made about what kind of meat is forbidden. On the other hand, almost all "cults" have their maryada of "strict vegetarianism". These sects/cults are not interested in the spirit of the Khalsa/Millitary. They are passive in nature. Sheep-like nature.




No meat is forbidden……much like Christianity. The whole point of Sikhi is to let people make their own decision over this issue……hence "fools wrangle over flesh"



begum said:


> So are Sikhs concluding that they're better off than all the vegans because of their balance in miri and piri ?




Sikhi does not say that. It leaves it down to an individual to make that choice and dismisses arguments that anyone food is better or purer than another.


----------



## Astroboy (Nov 19, 2007)

Randip Singh Ji,

You're are truly an expert in this field. Thanks again, and this time I will keep an open mind about this.

Yes, you forgot to mention - Vegans use leather products too.

Santokh


----------



## drkhalsa (Nov 20, 2007)

Dear Santokh ji

I dont know whether you know this or not 
Even Today there are Gurdwara where neat is served . I have myself taken Goat meat in Langar In delhi in gurdwara 

While in Uk I have met many people from Afghan who informed that that Meat is no taboo to thier culture and gurdwara 

I n India Due to heavy influenceof Vaishnite and also need of the time as nearly 20 % devotees to any gurdwara even Hrimandar Sahib are non sikhs even today  so there needs to be taken care off

When the langra was started at our guruji time the main devotees were either Hindu or Muslim  and both had contrasting Diets  although there were non Veg Hindus but Muslim wont eat Non Halal meat so the rreason it was eliminated from Langar probably 

This fact is even more brought to clarity by the fact that Sevapanthi preacher who used to preach to muslim were veg only due to fact that NON Halal meat is not acceptable to Muslims


  Why are 3HO and Gora Sikhs vegetarians ?

for 3 HO Sikhs Bhajan Singh Yogi ji was Water shed Line and they cant cross it at anty cost so they are mostly vegetrain due to him and also the Kundalini Yoga they practice 

Why are Nirmala Sikhs vegetarians ?

As I know from various sources like Vijaydeep singh who is regular Vistor to Nirmala Akharas  They are not gainst Meat eating and allow the house holder to eat meat 

Why are Namdharis vegetarians ?

This group has Living Guru and they Follow instructions according ly 

Why are Radha Soamis vegetarians ?

This not a Sikh gropu by any Dimension so need to comment 

Why are AKJ's vegetarians ?

This group started by Bhai Randhir Singh ji is league of its own and mantian very strict maryada which is differtnt from main Stream maryada 
they just add to diversity of sikh culture . and mind you Meat is one of the minor Issue compred to many contrasting Idea this group has

the Group you didnt mentioned are 


Taksal Sikhs - they are also vegetarian 


 Nihang singh group - they are Mixed Group

Their are two kinds of them some are vegetarian and other non vegetarian but those vegetarian dont make non veg a issue like AKJ 



And yes you are Right Randip Singh is THE EXPERT on the Issue!


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Nov 20, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> The best answer to your question is that langar is for everybody and there is no way a vegetarian is going to eat langar with non vegetarians.and also this custom is now deeply rooted in the mentality of sikhs so there is no way it is going to be changed.


 

100% agreed.  this is the explanation i have always heard.  langar is for EVERYONE.  if meat is served we're automatically limiting the groups of people who can eat with us.  therefore it's more fair to serve only food that everyone can eat.


----------



## kds1980 (Nov 20, 2007)

kelly_kaur said:


> 100% agreed.  this is the explanation i have always heard.  langar is for EVERYONE.  if meat is served we're automatically limiting the groups of people who can eat with us.  therefore it's more fair to serve only food that everyone can eat.



Kelly just a question to you if you don't mind .are you a vegetarian as santokh singh ji mentioned that gore(white) sikhs are vegetarian.


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Nov 20, 2007)

begum said:


> Why are 3HO and Gora Sikhs vegetarians ?
> Why are Nirmala Sikhs vegetarians ?
> Why are Namdharis vegetarians ?
> Why are Radha Soamis vegetarians ?
> ...


 

3HO is a yoga cult, they are vegetarian for their yoga practice.  please don't lump all white sikhs in with 3HO, many of us are just normal sikhs and some even eat meat.

nirmalas are hindus with turbans (sorry if anyone finds this offensive, but sanatan sikhs follow a lot of hindu traditions, including vegetarianism)

namdhari are a cult

radha soami are a cult

AKJ i have a lot of respect for, if they don't want to eat meat that's fine.   i've never met any AKJ sikh who tried to make non-veg sikhs eat only veg.  

i was unaware that sufis do not eat meat, can you show some proof of this?

thanks!


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Nov 20, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> Kelly just a question to you if you don't mind .are you a vegetarian as santokh singh ji mentioned that gore(white) sikhs are vegetarian.


 

i was a vegetarian before i was a sikh.  i did not change my eating habits after adopting sikhism.  however, i do not believe whether we eat meat or not has anything to do with religion.  it's purely personal choice.

my panj piyare told me that we are allowed to eat meat as long as it is not killed in the muslim fashion (halal).

gurfateh!


----------



## kds1980 (Nov 20, 2007)

> AKJ i have a lot of respect for, if they don't want to eat meat that's fine. i've never met any AKJ sikh who tried to make non-veg sikhs eat only veg.



AKJ's are hardcore vegetarians .In no way they accept people who eat meat as sikhs.if you visit their forum Tapoban.org you will find that they don't accept meat eating people as sikhs.I treid to debate with them on many forums with them but its useless they are very orthodox on this issue


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Nov 20, 2007)

kds1980 said:


> AKJ's are hardcore vegetarians .In no way they accept people who eat meat as sikhs.if you visit their forum Tapoban.org you will find that they don't accept meat eating people as sikhs.I treid to debate with them on many forums with them but its useless they are very orthodox on this issue


 

that's possible...  i've noticed that people are generally friendlier in person than online, so maybe that explains the difference in attitude.


----------



## drkhalsa (Nov 21, 2007)

> nirmalas are hindus with turbans (sorry if anyone finds this offensive, but sanatan sikhs follow a lot of hindu traditions, including vegetarianism)


I hope you have met one before making this opinion 


I got chance to meet Nirmala sant at there place in Haridwar . It was amazing experience , Yes they study Lot of Hindu literature bit the purpose is altogether different 

They keep unshorn hairs , have Parkash of Guru Granth Sahib just in same marayada with Nitem banis done regularly 

i was just sharing   what I know about them 

Jatinder Singh


----------



## Archived_Member1 (Nov 21, 2007)

drkhalsa said:


> I hope you have met one before making this opinion
> 
> I got chance to meet Nirmala sant at there place in Haridwar . It was amazing experience , Yes they study Lot of Hindu literature bit the purpose is altogether different
> 
> ...


 
thanks Jatinder ji...  i should probably  not make statements like that..   i'm basing my opinion on online experiences, maybe not the best idea.


----------



## Izhaarbir (Nov 21, 2007)

Would just like to say that I am surprised that there is a forum that exists out there where Sikhs don't butcher each other over this meat issue.  An encouraging experience to see that.


----------



## kds1980 (Nov 22, 2007)

drkhalsa said:


> I hope you have met one before making this opinion
> 
> 
> I got chance to meet Nirmala sant at there place in Haridwar . It was amazing experience , Yes they study Lot of Hindu literature bit the purpose is altogether different
> ...



I don't think that meeting one person is a good idea to make an opinion.For example
if 18 out of 25 nirmala  dera's are pro hindu and 7 are in sikhi and  a person visit a dera which is
is in sikhi then he will make an opinion that Nirmala's are in sikhi but that is not going to change the truth that majority are pro hindu.

Oh btw the above is just an example I don't know whether Nirmala's are sikhi or in hinduism


----------



## drkhalsa (Nov 22, 2007)

> I don't think that meeting one person is a good idea to make an opinion.For example
> if 18 out of 25 nirmala  dera's are pro hindu and 7 are in sikhi and  a person visit a dera which is
> is in sikhi then he will make an opinion that Nirmala's are in sikhi but that is not going to change the truth that majority are pro hindu.
> 
> Oh btw the above is just an example I don't know whether Nirmala's are sikhi or in hinduism



What you say is not worng  but this is the way things have to be done ( limitation)

In any study a sample size can only be checked and studied

If I apply your example to sikh gurdwara then I may not have visited more than Hundered in In my life and there are thousands of them or may be more of them so I cant conclude anything 

The point is I was refering the the basic philosophy Nirmalas are based and meeting common nirmala and Head of Dear or Nirmala Sany is totally different
On similar lines while visiting any gurdawar we just assume many tings baised on the philosophy the sikh base their action and If I jsut interepre t based on what we do in Gurdwaras it would just appear to be quite an Odd place 

About Nirmalas I just know that they are good preacher of sikhism and their might be deficiencies in their practicle aspect but theor Philosophy is very Sikh 


Jatinder Singh


----------



## kds1980 (Nov 22, 2007)

drkhalsa said:


> What you say is not worng  but this is the way things have to be done ( limitation)
> 
> In any study a sample size can only be checked and studied
> 
> ...



You are not wrong here about basic philosophy.But in my opinion one could get much better idea about basic philosophy from good reading material.


----------



## Izhaarbir (Nov 22, 2007)

Good reading material:

SGGS Panna 728:

		ham neh*ee* cha(n)g*ae* b*u*r*aa* neh*ee* k*o*e ||
_I am not good; no one is bad.

_If this is the Sikhi motto to life, why is there debate going on whether a certain people are good or bad, or whether their case studies proves them to be this way or that way? 

If I am not good, and no one is bad, shouldn't I be seeing whats going on with me that I am not good, rather than studying other people so much? 

bhul chuk maaf

Fateh!


----------



## Archived_Member_19 (Nov 22, 2007)

wow Izhaarbir....

i almost forgot that line


----------

