# The 4 Classes Of Sikhs And The Destruction Of Sikhism



## S|kH (Feb 10, 2005)

Recently, I've been looking at my local gurdwara community and started questioning, whats the necessary causes to keep Sikhi alive and prosperous. Why are we in state of always facing defeat, and how can we fix it? What puts us in this position, and what elements do most Sikhs rely on to carry them through life? Notice : I will be talking only of average Sikhs, so you [the reader] may very well be above the definition of an average Sikh and have an enormous amount of courage and nothing will stop you in your way to becoming a perfect Sikh. But, also please take into consideration an objective viewpoint, and disregard your past experiences which have led to your enormous amount of courage. The following list is ONLY in order of what causes the most damage to Sikhism with their general behavior, this ONLY concerns Sikhs and not other types of idealogious, religions, or philosophies.

     The four classes of a Sikh include : (I will later define my terms of the classes)
1) The mona, the anti-Sikh 
2) Kesh-wala / Sehajdhari
3) Keshdhari
4) The Khalsa

By the term mona or the anti-Sikh, I mean the person or people who go out of their way to destroy Sikh heritage, principles by either methods of liberalism or plain intimidation. Not many people fall into this category, but these are the Sikhs you see that only go to Sikh events to speak out about how stupid the Khalsa is, to only create events which help distort the image of the Khalsa or the real Sikhs, and then go on to add liberal viewpoints which destroy the image of Sikhs over the past hundreds of years only for their self-satisfaction and for their own personal desire to feel as if they committed no wrong. These are the types of people that you see at gurdwara who continually claim that Sikhs in 2005 do not need Kesh anymore, that hinder other individuals from pursuing the pleasure of Amrit. They never admit their wrongs or hold the values of the Gurus teachings to heart, yet they claim to be of the same type and Sikh as anyone else is and will fight in order to have that claim soldified. This is the number one reason and type of people that cause the detioration of Sikhs. 

The next two classes are the most critical in making the Sikhs more prosperous and keeping the heritage and tradition of Sikhi going. These classes rely on each other heavily, and class #2 has a much larger quantity that class #3. 

Class 2 is the type of people that may or may not keep their hair, but do realize their mistake in choice, yet still hold certain values of the Gurus words to their hearts and try to put it to their life. They are mostly secular, and less religious than any of the other classes. They do not engage in philosophical or deep-meaning debate, and only take Sikhism and Sikh history on the outer surface of what they were either told or read as a child. They often wear the Sikh symbols and regard themselves as Sikhs. They rarely admit that they are the best Sikh like Class #1 does all to often. They will usually defer you to someone who they claim is a better Sikh then themselves, and usually tell you they will either hopefully become a true or better Sikh one day, or only follow it because their parents told them to. As of now, in my gurdwara community, this class holds the largest number of individuals. Some may tie pughs, but have no real reason to, or don't know the purpose of it except that their parents do the same. Some may cut their hair, but often admit they are wrong, and still wear a kara and a Khanda around their neck. They never impose their belief on others and usually claim that they are not the best Sikhs, but hope to be some day. They take pride when other Sardars succeed or Sikhs make a step forward, and they greet other Sikhs, even those who are strangers. This is what we call the reserve-Sikhs. They can be broken down into Pugh-wala and Sehajdhari. Very inter-linked terms, the difference only being on the identity one holds. 

Class 3 includes the Keshdharis, one who know reasons why they keep their hair, why they beleive in certain principles of Sikhism, and why they reject the mainstream "religion or trend or fashion". They are active in their community, but have not yet become Khalsa. This is the most wavering class, this is the class that will make or break Sikhism.

Class 3 are the individuals who have already become Khalsa. Once this step is taken, very few go back, although some do, but those are mostly individuals who became Khalsa at too young of an age to handle the societal pressure that it comes with. No point to discuss this class, as everyone is well-aware of the Khalsa. 

Now, I bring to my point, Why if my Gurdwara is anything like that of the global Sikh community, why Sikhism will destruct. 

The Keshdhari youth, the ones who know reasons why they keep their hair and identity but are confronted by various images of fashion and society either by the media or friends are the ones that can determine the future of Sikhs. But, only if the Pugh-wala and Sehajdharis aide in their help. Every Keshdhari youth needs to be able to see other Singhs, or Sardars, even ones that are not good sikhs, and only superficially Sikh. They need to be able to walk around, and realize other people are part of this struggle, and you are on that is succeeding. The pugh-wala's are like reserves, they don't practice much Sikhi,  but they are there for the ones who do practice it, to rely on for evidence and support that Sikhism has not died yet. The Sehajdharis that wear Khandas and go say sat siri akal to a Sardar are ones that also help keep Sikhism alive, because the Keshdhari youth realizes there are people who actually respect him for his choice, rather than either the media or friends who make fun of him and ridicule him for wearing a turban in 2005. Without the help of others, one can not make the journey by himself. I'm sure Guru Nanak or Guru Gobind wouldn't have been nearly as influential or thought-provoking or Charismatic had it not been for them to walk around and see loyal disciples and followers. (It's actually a trick-statement for anyone pondering this...you can't be influential if you have no one to influence, and you can't be charismatic, if no one is able to define it). 

But, now is where the slip begins. The Pugh-Wala or Sehajdhari group eventually raises their children without kesh, as they don't even know the reasons themselves of why they keep it, but just that it is tradition and it never mattered in their life. The children of the Pugh-wala or Sehajdharis eventually go down to becoming monay (the Anti-Sikh), as they try to define to themselves and their friends and to the gurus that they are just as equal of a Sikh as any Khalsa, and that you do not need to keep the traditional elements of Sikhism intact, and the Guru's word can be used liberally, and as years progress, the 5 K's and religion can be changed. They often become more secular than their parents, and of course, their parents dont mind, because the parents don't even notice this trend, they think the child is just like them. Due to the lack of Sikh-knowledge from the parents, they don't have much tools to teach their children, and so the children just pick up what they can. Once you begin to diminish this group, you dimish the Keshdhari youth, who growing up, never see anyone that respects them, or gives them motivation that a future for Sikhs still exists, all they see is their Parents.  

And of course, once the Keshdhari Youth diminishes, the Khalsa only lasts for a generation longer. It's a much slower process than the one I depicted here, but I can tell you, it's happening at my Gurdwara, and I can easily point out the cases.

The Generation of my parents were the ones that were pre-dominantly Pugh-wala, who had not enough knowledge of Sikh philosophy or reason to teach their children, and never took offense if their child gave up the Sikh identity. The cause of the state of youth is a direct reference to how the Parents of this generation held onto Sikhi. But, you may use examples of how you know individuals that were pure Khalsas and yet their child cut their hair against the parents will. This is because, the child was a Keshdhari-youth, but had no one to even look to, not for guidance, but a peer for re-assurance. He does not look for help, because he knows the answers and where they lie, all he looks for is someone or a shadow he can see, a light that shows that you can be normal and yet Sikh. Many of times, this is not found, so the child gives up and returns to things of material interest. Keshdhari-Youth in India influenced by what their cousins do abroad and so on. This is not a problem that suddenly sprang up with the youth, but a problem that was easily started by the parent generation, and has been continuing for 2-3 generations. 

I did this research on my Gurdwara by breaking up each individual I knew, into the classes and then comparing it with reasons for either why my friends cut their hair, or why they began to keep it, and why the majority of the youth don't really mind Sikhism that much anymore.

I wonder, would you think this applies to Sikhs in the global community?
I'd most likely say no, as its more relevent in my gurdwara than some others around the area, but it's just a little bit of research I did that I wanted to share with you all.

I also ask, how do we stop the trend? How can I stop it at my gurdwara?


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## Ishna (Jun 3, 2011)

I think this is a very pertinent and observant article.  I have certainly observed a good swathe of 20-50y/o Sikhs who are confident in their version of Sikhi which doesn't include keeping hair, yet they are hard working and believe they're on the right path (I'm not judging here, I'm just observing).  They dismiss the idea of becoming Khalsa as unnecessary.  I see this trend growing.


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## kds1980 (Jun 3, 2011)

Ishna said:


> I think this is a very pertinent and observant article.  I have certainly observed a good swathe of 20-50y/o Sikhs who are confident in their version of Sikhi which doesn't include keeping hair, yet they are hard working and believe they're on the right path (I'm not judging here, I'm just observing).  They dismiss the idea of becoming Khalsa as unnecessary.  I see this trend growing.



Yes this trend is growing but in India this may become one of the reason of Sikhi assimilated between hinduism.there is no difference between a Gurdwara going hindu  and a clean shaven Sikh ,as a result distinction between them impossible


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 4, 2011)

Listen this Video...cna you tell IF this is a SIKH or a HINDU ? He looks like a Sikh...
BUT unlike a Sikh who would listen to Japji Sahib in the morning..his nitnem is HANUMAN CHALISA...decide yourself..

YouTube        - ‪Asaram Ji Bapu - Shri M.S.Bitta in Rajokari Ashram2/2‬&rlm;


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## kds1980 (Jun 4, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Listen this Video...cna you tell IF this is a SIKH or a HINDU ? He looks like a Sikh...
> BUT unlike a Sikh who would listen to Japji Sahib in the morning..his nitnem is HANUMAN CHALISA...decide yourself..
> 
> YouTube        - ‪Asaram Ji Bapu - Shri M.S.Bitta in Rajokari Ashram2/2‬&rlm;



There are/were thousands of Hindu's who do Jap ji sahib in morning and rehraas in evening.Can easily defeat thousands of Sikhs  when it comes to spirituality but they don't identify themselves as Sikhs  and may never stand for any of Sikh rights.so who are they Hindu or sikhs?


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 4, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> There are/were thousands of Hindu's who do Jap ji sahib in morning and rehraas in evening.Can easily defeat thousands of Sikhs  when it comes to spirituality but they don't identify themselves as Sikhs  and may never stand for any of Sikh rights.so who are they Hindu or sikhs?



My dearest frined who passed away at age 80 a few months ago used to wear a Gandi cap to gurdwara..everyone knew him as Topiwallah..he knew the entire SGGS by heart..came to gurdwara daily for his Nitnem..and then directly to the Mandir for the Pooja..he was sevadaar of BOTH !! He died like that..no kesh, shave daily..doing pooja and paath..at his death was an akhand paath followed by Ramayan paath at Mandir...so i guess he was keeping BOTH options open...??? He used to tell me JOKINGLY (maybe seriously)... IF its RAM Chander at the Pearly gates..he will get in..and If it just happens its Guru nanak ji..he will get in..Ha Ha..BUT if it happens that its St Peter or Prophet Muhammed at the Gates..then hes OUT...No body knows because no one has COME BACK. I suppose thats how most people see religion these days..they a re just hedging their bets...


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 4, 2011)

Na koi Hindu, Na koi Sikh ,


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## kds1980 (Jun 4, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> My dearest frined who passed away at age 80 a few months ago used to wear a Gandi cap to gurdwara..everyone knew him as Topiwallah..he knew the entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji by heart..came to gurdwara daily for his Nitnem..and then directly to the Mandir for the Pooja..he was sevadaar of BOTH !! He died like that..no kesh, shave daily..doing pooja and paath..at his death was an akhand paath followed by Ramayan paath at Mandir...so i guess he was keeping BOTH options open...??? He used to tell me JOKINGLY (maybe seriously)... IF its RAM Chander at the Pearly gates..he will get in..and If it just happens its Guru nanak ji..he will get in..Ha Ha..BUT if it happens that its St Peter or Prophet Muhammed at the Gates..then hes OUT...No body knows because no one has COME BACK. I suppose thats how most people see religion these days..they a re just hedging their bets...



In 1984 riots these people who kept both options open did not come out  to protect Gurdwara's ,they were sitting in their homes while Gurdwara's ,Guru granth sahib was being burnt.


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## findingmyway (Jun 4, 2011)

Sinner Singh said:


> Na koi Hindu, Na koi Sikh ,



Please expand further what you mean? There should be no religion and no identity?

The distinctions are manmade but in many ways necessary as they can have a deep impact on the philosophy we follow live our lives. We need to know where we are inside ourselves and reflect that on the outside I think but each individual has their own journey.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 4, 2011)

Dear Finding my Way 

If there is only one father then there must only be brothers and sisters everywhere,  differences on both sides divide us.We must see past appearances, even Sikhs have divided themselves into distinct orders.Perhaps there is more to this world than meets the eye!

"He who sees the Infinite in all things, sees God. He who sees the Ratio only, sees himself only" .
(There is no Natural Religion, 1788)


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## findingmyway (Jun 4, 2011)

Outside appearances should reflect what is on the inside otherwise they mean nothing. Divisions come not from the differences in appearances but from non-acceptance of others appearances! Everyone is always trying to say only they think the right way. For many the appearance is a source of strength and a constant guide so this should not be taken away from them. Equally appearance is not everything.

In a more histprical sense, if it wasn't for appearance it would be too easy to run away when the going got tough and Sikhism would already have died.
I think the heat is getting to me as my mind is working in riddles today


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 4, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> In 1984 riots these people who kept both options open did not come out  to protect Gurdwara's ,they were sitting in their homes while Gurdwara's ,Guru granth sahib was being burnt.



THATS the whole IDEA....why cross the LINE and become a VISIBLE SIKH..it may cost you your head !! This was the exact scenario in Delhis Chandni Chowk when Guur teg bahdur Jis head lay on the ground beside his body...there were many many "sikhs" in the crowd...BUT..Sir kattaveh KAUNN ?? was the uppermost question in each person's mind...even though FIVE SIKHS died under torture ..Bhai Mati dass, Bhai Sati dass Bhai Dyala Ji...there were hundreds who kept silent and un-noticed to save their lives...exactly why Guur Gobind Singh jis tood up and DEMANDED Five HEADS in 1699..to give the sikhs a CHOICE..Stand up and be COUNTED..or forever shut up. mnay thousnads SHUT UP and left..many thousands stood up and were COUNTED. Simple.
So the many thousands who stood by and saw Guru teg bahdur jis head cut off and said NOTHING..also did the same thing in 1984...they watched the Gurdwars burning..otyher sikhs getting slaughtered...and said NOTHING. Nothing NEW at all...Exact same will happen..in the Future too...


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## kds1980 (Jun 4, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> THATS the whole IDEA....why cross the LINE and become a VISIBLE SIKH..it may cost you your head !! This was the exact scenario in Delhis Chandni Chowk when Guru teg bahdur Jis head lay on the ground beside his body...there were many many "sikhs" in the crowd...BUT..Sir kattaveh KAUNN ?? was the uppermost question in each person's mind...even though FIVE SIKHS died under torture ..Bhai Mati dass, Bhai Sati dass Bhai Dyala Ji...there were hundreds who kept silent and un-noticed to save their lives...exactly why Guru Gobind Singh jis tood up and DEMANDED Five HEADS in 1699..to give the sikhs a CHOICE..Stand up and be COUNTED..or forever shut up. mnay thousnads SHUT UP and left..many thousands stood up and were COUNTED. Simple.
> So the many thousands who stood by and saw Guru teg bahdur jis head cut off and said NOTHING..also did the same thing in 1984...they watched the Gurdwars burning..otyher sikhs getting slaughtered...and said NOTHING. Nothing NEW at all...Exact same will happen..in the Future too...



There is no point comparing Puratan Sikhs with today's sikhs.These day an average Sikh if not more is as much materialistic as any Hindu or muslim.
Now the main question when the liberalised Sikhi or Hinduised Sikhi will be available to Sikhs then why Sikh youth in future will choose distinct indentity? It is well known fact that Humans always choose easy way rather than difficult one


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 4, 2011)

Its a Fallacy that comparing "Puratan Sikhs" and Modern Sikhs is futile. Its a fact that in Puratn Sikh times also there were the brave ones, ythe cowards, the easy going ones..the hard ones..same as Today.   Only History changes..people remain the same...thats WHY Guru nanak ji declares..Why Blame a non-entity like "Kalyug" for YOUR DEEDS ?? Its the same Sun, the same moon, the same stars that hsone in so called Satyug..Dwapar etc...and its the SAME TODAY..but evil men find it expedient to Blame their actions on "klayug" hai...a Father caught rpaing his daughter will say.."kalyug hai"...News headlines will say.."Kalyugi Baap"..what a load of RUBBISH. Such people also existed in SATYUG/DEVYUG........read how the DEVTAS like Brahma lusted after their own Daughters....how Shivji changed form to rape the Yogis wife....etc etc...


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## kds1980 (Jun 5, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> Its a Fallacy that comparing "Puratan Sikhs" and Modern Sikhs is futile. Its a fact that in Puratn Sikh times also there were the brave ones, ythe cowards, the easy going ones..the hard ones..same as Today.   Only History changes..people remain the same...thats WHY Guru nanak ji declares..Why Blame a non-entity like "Kalyug" for YOUR DEEDS ?? Its the same Sun, the same moon, the same stars that hsone in so called Satyug..Dwapar etc...and its the SAME TODAY..but evil men find it expedient to Blame their actions on "klayug" hai...a Father caught rpaing his daughter will say.."kalyug hai"...News headlines will say.."Kalyugi Baap"..what a load of RUBBISH. Such people also existed in SATYUG/DEVYUG........read how the DEVTAS like Brahma lusted after their own Daughters....how Shivji changed form to rape the Yogis wife....etc etc...



Sorry Gyani ji have to disagree with you here.Take the example of people of India.When India got independence then  there were so many people who prefer honest lifestyle rather than corrupt materialistic lifestyle ,but with time honesty started vanishing .and with each decade corruption and rampant materialism increased .When in 63 years humans can change so much then why can't sikhs change in 300 years.

Forget about saving hindu women from muslim invaders How many Sikhs these days stand up even against eve teasing? It is today's known fact that Sikhs toady are one of the biggest money chasing community of India ,is it any wonder that business of sending youth is prospering most in Punjab


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 5, 2011)

KbDS Ji..imho the diagreement is only about NUMBERS...Good Siksh vs Bad sikhs..Puratn times Good outnumbered the Bad by a  Hundred thousand to one ..NOW the trend is REVERSED...a Good sikh is like a needle in a haystack...Otherwise we are in agreement.
Cheers


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## kds1980 (Jun 5, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> KbDS Ji..imho the diagreement is only about NUMBERS...Good Siksh vs Bad sikhs..Puratn times Good outnumbered the Bad by a  Hundred thousand to one ..NOW the trend is REVERSED...a Good sikh is like a needle in a haystack...Otherwise we are in agreement.
> Cheers



A community is judged by how its majority behave.Many people say that Hindu's were cowards because they did not fight with muslim invaders or Budhist too too were not brave  because their majority did not put any resistance .It was not like all hindu's refused to fight but majority did nothing against muslim invaders .If these days majority of Sikhs are not brave,materialistic then there is no way we can claim that we are brave ,honest martial community.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 5, 2011)

I have to whole heartedly disagree with this article. I have met Sikhs in all these classes that are better Siikhs than me. I have also met Sikhs in all these classes who are idiots.

Far more destructive than these type of Sikhs are Sikhs who believe in Sants (Dhadriawalay etc) in Cults (Radhaoswami etc), and Sects (DDT, AKJ, GNSSJ). It will be these groups that bring a death knell to Sikhism.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 5, 2011)

Dear Randip,I agree with you, Sikhism firstly is a faith ,a belief ,with important articles of faith but without belief they become adornments. The first instruction in our Holy Text rightly instills in us a belief in One God ,that is where the Guru started the instruction from. The first purpose then of our faith is to prescribe monotheism.
While One person in the world, believes in One God then Sikhism is alive. 
(in a way atleast)
If all the world were magically all made to become Keshdari but had not the faith to go along with it they would not be what they appeared to be.


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## Randip Singh (Jun 5, 2011)

Sinner Singh said:


> Dear Randip,I agree with you, Sikhism firstly is a faith ,a belief ,with important articles of faith but without belief they become adornments. The first instruction in our Holy Text rightly instills in us a belief in One God ,that is where the Guru started the instruction from. The first purpose then of our faith is to prescribe monotheism.
> While One person in the world, believes in One God then Sikhism is alive.
> (in a way atleast)
> If all the world were magically all made to become Keshdari but had not the faith to go along with it they would not be what they appeared to be.



Good points. 

Khushwant once said, something along the lines about Sikhs becoming a cult of the sword. We are so much more than that. 

In this instance, we could become a cult of the long hair, again Sikhi is so much more than that.

Lets focus on the central message of Sikhi, and worry about whether Sikhs keep kesh or not after that.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 7, 2011)

Sikhji, 

It is quite ridiculous to brand all mona sikhs as antisikhs, this is flirting with the same notion that all non mona sikhs are perfect sikhs. We all cut our hair for different reasons, I cut mine because primarily I hold the image of the turbanned sikh in extremely high regard, and, quite simply, I do not reach the required level of sikhi that I may wear that crown of kings. My father, on the other hand does, and I respect him hugely not for his turban, but for what qualifies him to wear it. 

Your posting actually encourages people to dwell more on the physical and social aspects of sikhism than the more intimate relationship with the self, and attempting to reach the spirit within. 

If I may be so bold, in order of achievement, for me the order goes something like this

1. Accept the concept of a creator, and attempt to communicate with the pure spirit within. 
2. Make peace with the five thieves, years ago, I would have said do battle with the five thieves, but it is easier, to me anyway, to accept that the five thieves are there, all the time, as an opinion, but not as a desire. Its a halfway house built  on understanding and moderation. Be able to discriminate between the voice of the spirit and the voice of the thieves
3. Fill yourself with love, for the creator, for yourself, and for the people round you, exchange anger for firmness, and aggression for defence. Accept that it is not what happens to you that is important, it is how you deal with it. 
4. Keep your mind pure and clean, even one lingering look on a woman who is not your wife is a blot on your mind. Thoughts, they say are not as important as actions, I disagree, it all starts with what is happening in your head, regardless how long your hair is. 
5. Now you are ready to wear the crown of kings, take amrit, and explore the magnificence of the relationship between man, the spirit, and the creator, and ultimately leave behind the childish ways of man, and reach for the image of yourself reflected in the spirit, that once stood  before you in tatters, an unreachable dream, now you can be yourself, the person you were born to be, a sikh


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## kds1980 (Jun 7, 2011)

Mona Sikh ,turbaned Sikh is more emotional issue for Sikh community than spiritual one.Sikhs very well know that if they accept the concept of Mona Sikhs then almost the entire Youth will become clean shaven and this is something that Sikh community is not ready and gets emotional


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## Ishna (Jun 7, 2011)

Harry Haller ji, I take my hat off to you sir!  Very well said, some good food for thought in there for myself too.


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## Harry Haller (Jun 7, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> Mona Sikh ,turbaned Sikh is more emotional issue for Sikh community than spiritual one.Sikhs very well know that if they accept the concept of Mona Sikhs then almost the entire Youth will become clean shaven and this is something that Sikh community is not ready and gets emotional


 
There are no mona sikhs, just incomplete ones

I am not lauding the concept of sikhi without kesh, A sikh without kesh though,is no more incomplete than a keshdari sikh with with an unclean mind

To the idea that the entire sikh youth would become clean shaven, I would say, let them become clean shaven, the percentage that returns to the fold as fully functioning khalsa would be higher than if they kept kesh out of fear or social ridicule., 

Having said that , kdsji, I live in the UK, in an area where the nearest Gurdwara is 25 miles away, consequently I know nothing about tradition or social pressures either way, the only sikhs I interact with are my parents. I know about spirit, and I know about honour, but little about dignity. 

I never quite got into the whole god-fearing thing, god to me was not someone to be scared of, more someone to love. I think our youth need to feel the same way about kesh. Too many are in fear of it, ie, I will not cut my hair, or I will anger someone, my parents, god, etc. A better way forward is to teach our youth to love thier kesh, and if they wish to cut it, to go right ahead, it is only the attraction of rebellion most times, once you have overcome that fear, and learned to love, maybe no youth would consider cutting it, and they would understand the sacrifices made for them to have this luxery. 

I dare say the act of rebellion works both ways, if they passed a law in the uk banning turbans, I would be one of the first to wear one, but not for the right reasons, anymore than the right reason for keeping kesh is fear and ridicule


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## kds1980 (Jun 7, 2011)

Harry haler ji

Theory and practical world are two different things.From past 150 years Sikh leaders were afraid that Sikhism will get assimilated into Hinduism.It looks like now their fear is becoming reality.In India the only factor that distinguishes Sikhs from Hindu's is their turban.Do you know harry haler ji How many monay sikhs are their in bollywood? Plenty as Actors ,directors, producers and the funny thing is they too never hesistated to make mockery of Turbaned Sikhs in their Films.They themselves or their children inter marry with non sikhs and don't even give  Sikh name to their children


Once a Hindu told me that he helped Sikhs in 1984 riots , he said many cut their hair ,
then he said that that those who cut their  hair even started smoking .now what is 5he connection between cutting hair and smoking.It  is just those people felt that those people are liberated.

Anyway personally I don't care about Turbaned or monay Sikhs.I know That future of Sikhism is quite bleak in India and may be in 40-50 years they will get assimilated in Hinduism.Only divine miracle can save sikhism


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## Harry Haller (Jun 7, 2011)

kdsji, 

I put it to you that a lot of non monay sikhs have little in the way of faith, they see sikhism as a social club and refrain from embracing the spritual aspects of sikhi, instead embracing the social aspects. The problem with this is when you get to a point where your faith is questioned, ie the riots of 84, you have little spritual substance to actually get you through, and for that reason, you cut your hair, you have a smoke, not because you want to become more western, but because you simply do not believe that a god for whom you kept your hair, could stand around and witness the rape, death and pillage around you. 

Ironically here in the west, smoking is becoming more and more socially inacceptable, there is definately a backlash against smokers, it is extremely unfashionable. 

I think you are being a bit bleak about the future, but then you are in India, and I am not, so in the absence of any first hand information, I will have to bow down to your local knowledge, however if only a divine miracle can save sikhism, then that is what we must pray for. 

Sikhism is a very young religion, I think our biggest problem is that todays youth know nothing about it. When I was in my 20's I read many books about life, philosophy, many that I took to my heart, why is it that only when I have entered my 40's, I am now being presented with ideals, theories and philosphies that make my books seem amateur, and they were there all along, I never ever knew or expected that the spiritual side of sikhism actually unlocks the doors to the spirit and the creator, regardless of the social aspects. 

Educate our youth as to the spiritual and personal benefits of sikhism, let them want to wear turbans in pride, not because they have to, but because spiritually they connect with 500 years of knowledge and information that is unavailable in any other book or religion. 

Those that you say become hindus, good luck to them, I hope they find salvation in hinduism, no one should be with us, who does not want to be, but educating the young singhs and kaurs should be paramount if you want to maintain a modern and dynamic culture.


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## kds1980 (Jun 7, 2011)

> kdsji,
> 
> I put it to you that a lot of non monay sikhs have little in the way of faith, they see sikhism as a social club and refrain from embracing the spritual aspects of sikhi, instead embracing the social aspects. The problem with this is when you get to a point where your faith is questioned, ie the riots of 84, you have little spritual substance to actually get you through, and for that reason, you cut your hair, you have a smoke, not because you want to become more western, but because you simply do not believe that a god for whom you kept your hair, could stand around and witness the rape, death and pillage around you.



Its true that that many Sikhs see sikhism as social club ,but as long as raise their children as Sikhs they are contribuiting in keepoing Sikhism alive.



> Sikhism is a very young religion, I think our biggest problem is that todays youth know nothing about it. When I was in my 20's I read many books about life, philosophy, many that I took to my heart, why is it that only when I have entered my 40's, I am now being presented with ideals, theories and philosphies that make my books seem amateur, and they were there all along, I never ever knew or expected that the spiritual side of sikhism actually unlocks the doors to the spirit and the creator, regardless of the social aspects.



Does your way of Thinking is same as in 20s.The fact is Younger generation have very little interest in 20s ,it is only in later life they move toward their religion



> Those that you say become hindus, good luck to them, I hope they find salvation in hinduism, no one should be with us, who does not want to be, but educating the young singhs and kaurs should be paramount if you want to maintain a modern and dynamic culture.



It is not like they convert to hinduism ,because of social factors,media bollywood ,friends etc.they will draw toward it

Let me tell you funny incident .just a few days back me and my younger brother were watching horror film at night, after the film my brother said I am afraid and I started laughing ,I said I know paath, few hindu mantra's,muslim kalma and christian prayer.I said if any ghost will come I am sue he will be afraid of any.My brother said I don't know anything then he said wait I know few lines of Hanuman chalisa which he heard in TV and films and I said good try this if ghost come:grinningsingh:


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## Harry Haller (Jun 7, 2011)

KDSji

Its true that that many Sikhs see sikhism as social club ,but as long as raise their children as Sikhs they are contribuiting in keepoing Sikhism alive.

I disagree, they are keeping a social club alive, not sikhi

Does your way of Thinking is same as in 20s.The fact is Younger generation have very little interest in 20s ,it is only in later life they move toward their religion

My way of thinking was the same, I was hungry for an explanation of how and why I felt inside, in the end, I found my meaning of life in the books of Herman Hesse, particularly The Steppenwolf.


It is not like they convert to hinduism ,because of social factors,media bollywood ,friends etc.they will draw toward it

are these people a loss to sikhi or any religion?

Kdsji, you seem worried that the house of cards that represents "sikhs only in appearance" is about to come crashing down, I say, let it come crashing down, lets do away with the false traditions and the ridiculous social aspects of sikhism, let it be replaced with a true reflection of what the 10 Gurus attempted to teach us, would that be so bad?


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## kds1980 (Jun 7, 2011)

> Does your way of Thinking is same as in 20s.The fact is Younger generation have very little interest in 20s ,it is only in later life they move toward their religion
> 
> My way of thinking was the same, I was hungry for an explanation of how and why I felt inside, in the end, I found my meaning of life in the books of Herman Hesse, particularly The Steppenwolf.



I am not a normal person.



> are these people a loss to sikhi or any religion?
> 
> Kdsji, you seem worried that the house of cards that represents "sikhs only in appearance" is about to come crashing down, I say, let it come crashing down, lets do away with the false traditions and the ridiculous social aspects of sikhism, let it be replaced with a true reflection of what the 10 Gurus attempted to teach us, would that be so bad?



yes it is loss

In this political world Numbers are strength.It is a well known fact that no one hears a word from minority,no one care about them.Once the numbers of sikhs get reduced to very low numbers then Govt will strip all the rights to wear turban, kirpan.Look at world Sikhs have only secured rights in UK,canada and USA where they still have sizeable population.In countries like France or Germany Sikhs hardly have any rights to wear turban,Things could have been different if they were in lakhs in France

Today you can't even go Guru nanak's birth place ,You have to beg to Pakistan ,you cannot propagate Gurbani their why? because we don't have any sizeable population in Pakistan.

Harry ji I am sorry but if our ancestors had this type of thinking then may be Sikhism wouldn't have been alive


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## Ishna (Jun 7, 2011)

France indeed has lakhs of Muslims, yet the law against religious clothing was primarily aimed against them.


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## kds1980 (Jun 8, 2011)

Ishna said:


> France indeed has lakhs of Muslims, yet the law against religious clothing was primarily aimed against them.



The main reason of that law is  women's right and curtail growth of islam.From India to many European countries are worried about growth of muslims in numbers


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## Harry Haller (Jun 8, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> I am not a normal person.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Maybe if our ancestors could see the state of sikhism today, and I mean the many  who have little or no idea about the union between man and the creator, they would dispair more so at the empty shell we have become. With the greatest respect you seem more concerned about numbers than quality, although, I do absolutely get your point and your rationale


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## kds1980 (Jun 8, 2011)

harry haller said:


> Maybe if our ancestors could see the state of sikhism today, and I mean the many  who have little or no idea about the union between man and the creator, they would dispair more so at the empty shell we have become. With the greatest respect you seem more concerned about numbers than quality, although, I do absolutely get your point and your rationale



Yes I am more concerned about quantity because with quantity quality too increase .Just take 10 million Sikhs only 2% are great gursikhs means 2 lakh good quality sikhs .Now reduce this number to 10,000 and even increase percentage of great gursikhs 50% means 5000 great gursikhs.

As far our ancestors are concerned ,the puratan sikhs were no saints barring few,if you will read sikh history you may offensive words against muslims and even some wrote against women.The bhangi misl was most powerful  but as they got their name Bhangi because they use to consume Bhang in large quantity.But overall they manage to save Sikhism and that is why it  is still alive in 2011.A Religion cannot only run on liberal theories,it needs lot of practical elements


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## Harry Haller (Jun 8, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> Yes I am more concerned about quantity because with quantity quality too increase .Just take 10 million Sikhs only 2% are great gursikhs means 2 lakh good quality sikhs .Now reduce this number to 10,000 and even increase percentage of great gursikhs 50% means 5000 great gursikhs.
> 
> As far our ancestors are concerned ,the puratan sikhs were no saints barring few,if you will read sikh history you may offensive words against muslims and even some wrote against women.The bhangi misl was most powerful but as they got their name Bhangi because they use to consume Bhang in large quantity.But overall they manage to save Sikhism and that is why it is still alive in 2011.A Religion cannot only run on liberal theories,it needs lot of practical elements


 
Kdsji, 

What you are saying is that 98% of 10 million sikhs are free to talk about god, sikhi and sikh thinking with little or no knowledge of what they are talking about. These are the people that inisist on same caste marriages, dowries, a bit of booze, deep admiration for anyone who does path daily; whether they understand it or not, advocating idol worship, or worse, a baba, these people will also have children, and ultimately you will find that percentage getting smaller and smaller, that is also an awful lot of people to spread an awful lot of misinformation.

Although I am aware that indulging in pot is normal in some sections of sikh culture and tradition,  I am sorry to say I find it distasteful that we owe sikhism being alive in 2011 to a misl that not only used drugs, but were proud enough of the fact to name themselves after it. 

The argument here is should we concentrate on ourselves as a body first, or just keep going where 98% of our people are semi sikhs. These semi sikhs have more chance of being man mukh types than if they did away with the 5 k's and started searching. You are validating this 98% and telling them, as long as you have kesh, and look and act like a sikh, that is good enough, so what happens, they stop searching and be content with themselves with the appearance of a sikh. 

Personally I think that is doing more damage than letting loose 5000 gursikhs out of a total of 10,000, at least people would associate the more spiritual and good aspects of sikhi with the 5 k's, given that you have a 50% chance of meeting a sardar and knowing he is also a gursikh...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 8, 2011)

The "insults" to muslims and all..found mostly in so called Rehitnamahs  and SPURIOUS Vaars penned under FRAUDALENT NAMES and added in to  LEGITIMATE SIKH authors ( prime example is an ANONYMOUS VAAR added to  the 40 vaars of Bhai Gurdass of Guru Arjun Jis time. This 41st Vaar  added to the Vaar Pothi of Bhai gurdass is chock full of GROSS ANTI  MUSLIM SENTIMENTS and FALSEHOODS...example..The Khalsa DEMOLISHED  MOSQUES, Banned the Azan Nimaaz, etc and killed Kazis and Mullahs by the  hundreds and made Islam a religion illegal...and it also says very  degrading things baout Prophet muhammed the Founder of islam using words  such as Muhammed cut off the Lingams of Arab Kings etc when its aknown  fact that only the Foreskin is circumcised and the word LAAND is a  derogatory word for the Male organ( Laand kataii laands cut off)..etc  etc are the MINORITY..the tineist minority of PURATAN SIKHS who were  busy fighting for their very survival whiel the "ENEMY WITHIN" was busy  writing these fraud rehitnamahs and vaars to weaken them form inside.

The SAME "ENEMY WITHIN" is still around..very much alive and  kicking...Dont beleiv eme..just ask the Jathedars in charge of the  takhats SGPC etc..as to WHY the SIKH WOMEN are not allowed to do paaths,  kirtan, Harmandar sewa etc etc...why they are considered UNCLEAN..when  GURU Nanak ji Himself said THEY ARE NOT UNCLEAN and wrote it in Gurbani  as a Natural occurence that arrives every month and is a Necessity to  the Human Propogation....Jio joru sir navvnnne aveh varo vaar...its a  natural occurrence coming month after month in His HUKM !!

As to Anti-Mulsim..anti Pakistan rhetoric..these "enemies within" have their Bhagva RSS bedmates Rashtrya *SIKH* Sangat to do that...so NOTHING has changed...GENUINE SIKHS Vs the FAKE Khalsa still the same...as in Puratan Times...

2. I am  one of the direct descendants of the BHANGI MISL....a  Dhillon...and commonly referred to by many as a "Bhnagu"....even though I  havent yet seen a Bhang leaf in my life....so this may be subjective.  BUT the FIRST Leader to be called Bhangi was one who was the third  leader of this Misl. Just as the Present Ruling Clan of Punjab is called  BADALITES..badal dall...BUT Not each member is from the Pind Badal or  form the family of Badal...its very unfortunate to claim that each Sikh  Member of the Bhnagi Misl ate Bhang !! Secondly BHANGEE is also the  grouping of the LOW CASTE cleaners..the sweepers..the night soil  carriers...and In the Khalsa Spirit the Dhillon jatt leaders of the Misl  accepted these so called low castes and become Khalsa after Chhak  Amrit...so the others called this the "Bhangi Misl" as well...( and I am  sure the HIGH CLASS Brahmins/Khalsa Bippars inside the Sikhs etc would  be the ones doing the Finger pointing...Plenty of SUCH people today as  well as a few decades ago..these people POINTED THESE SAME FINGERS ta  Gyani Gurditt Singh of Singh Sabha Lehr...(low caste chhimba) etc and  excommunicated him !!

Our History has a lot of HOLES..lots of FAKE "facts"..UNTRUTHS..LIES..half-truths...Milawaat ....


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## kds1980 (Jun 8, 2011)

> Kdsji,
> 
> What you are saying is that 98% of 10 million sikhs are free to talk about god, sikhi and sikh thinking with little or no knowledge of what they are talking about. These are the people that inisist on same caste marriages, dowries, a bit of booze, deep admiration for anyone who does path daily; whether they understand it or not, advocating idol worship, or worse, a baba, these people will also have children, and ultimately you will find that percentage getting smaller and smaller, that is also an awful lot of people to spread an awful lot of misinformation.



Whether the percentage of good sikhs increase or decrease no one knows,the Sikhs of Punjab used to be quite religious and the one who left Punjab were less religious,what happened today the people of Punjab are less religious .On 6th june where thousands of people gathered to remember 27th anniversary of operation Blue star there were hardlyt few Sikhs gathered in Punjab where it actually happened



> Although I am aware that indulging in pot is normal in some sections of sikh culture and tradition, I am sorry to say I find it distasteful that we owe sikhism being alive in 2011 to a misl that not only used drugs, but were proud enough of the fact to name themselves after it.



Bhangi Misl was not the only misl there were other misls too but use of intoxicants was their.Even the europeans who observed Sikhs wrote about it
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The word Bhangi is derived from bhang or hemp, a plant of wild growth found in the jungles of the Punjab, and in abundance along river banks. When pounded in a mortar with a pestle and sifted through a piece of co{censored} cloth, it leaves behind a thick liquid of gree colour. Its drink is intoxicating and soothes the effect of heat in summer. A particular group of Dal Khalsa liberally indulged in this drink, and profusely entertained others with it. At the time of fighting, it made its lovers furious and reckless. On account of addiction to it, this group of Khalsa came to be called Bhangi. This misal was the largest in its size and area it occupied.

http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/events/bhangi.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> The argument here is should we concentrate on ourselves as a body first, or just keep going where 98% of our people are semi sikhs. These semi sikhs have more chance of being man mukh types than if they did away with the 5 k's and started searching. You are validating this 98% and telling them, as long as you have kesh, and look and act like a sikh, that is good enough, so what happens, they stop searching and be content with themselves with the appearance of a sikh.



I am not saying that these 98% are going to keep kesh or even wear 5ks they may keep it they may not.I was only countering you arguement that what problem if their if many sikhs will amalgamate into hinudism and telling importance of numbers



> Personally I think that is doing more damage than letting loose 5000 gursikhs out of a total of 10,000, at least people would associate the more spiritual and good aspects of sikhi with the 5 k's, given that you have a 50% chance of meeting a sardar and knowing he is also a gursikh...



and these 5000 gursikhs will only do farming because nowhere in cities they will be allowed 
to do work with turban.In India if a population any community decreases below 30,000 then they cease to exists as community under constitution ,only 70,000 parsis are left and national comission of minorities have asked them to increase their population as they are already under the threat of extinction


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## kds1980 (Jun 8, 2011)

> The "insults" to muslims and all..found mostly in so called Rehitnamahs and SPURIOUS Vaars penned under FRAUDALENT NAMES and added in to LEGITIMATE SIKH authors ( prime example is an ANONYMOUS VAAR added to the 40 vaars of Bhai Gurdass of Guru Arjun Jis time. This 41st Vaar added to the Vaar Pothi of Bhai gurdass is chock full of GROSS ANTI MUSLIM SENTIMENTS and FALSEHOODS...example..The Khalsa DEMOLISHED MOSQUES, Banned the Azan Nimaaz, etc and killed Kazis and Mullahs by the hundreds and made Islam a religion illegal...and it also says very degrading things baout Prophet muhammed the Founder of islam using words such as Muhammed cut off the Lingams of Arab Kings etc when its aknown fact that only the Foreskin is circumcised and the word LAAND is a derogatory word for the Male organ( Laand kataii laands cut off)..etc etc are the MINORITY..the tineist minority of PURATAN SIKHS who were busy fighting for their very survival whiel the "ENEMY WITHIN" was busy writing these fraud rehitnamahs and vaars to weaken them form inside.



The so called rehatnama's have valuable information about Sikh history ,though I am not saying that they are 100% reliable but if we keep them out then what history we have left for that period or we just want to create our own history where khalsa is like a bollywood hero ,very good ,always defeating enemies etc a romanticised version of Sikhism which suits our mind


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## onurag (Jun 8, 2011)

> these 5000 gursikhs will only do farming because nowhere in cities they will be allowed to do work with turban


 
Please dont underestimate the power, knowledge and intelligence of gursikhs. Who says that they will not be allowed to work with turbans. No one can stop them to work with turbans. Today you can see Sikhs working in every field and domain, may be its IT industries, farming or any other field. 
I dont say that they must be limited to farming but if they do so then what is the harm. Because they are working as farmers, we are getting grains and food to eat that gives us strength to survive and live. Because of them, we are doing best in our fields. :happysingh:


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## kds1980 (Jun 8, 2011)

onurag said:


> Please dont underestimate the power, knowledge and intelligence of gursikhs. Who says that they will not be allowed to work with turbans. No one can stop them to work with turbans. Today you can see Sikhs working in every field and domain, may be its IT industries, farming or any other field.
> I dont say that they must be limited to farming but if they do so then what is the harm. Because they are working as farmers, we are getting grains and food to eat that gives us strength to survive and live. Because of them, we are doing best in our fields. :happysingh:



It is because Sikhs have secured rights to wear turban,but even in countries like USA Turbaned ,bearded sikhs are not allowed to become pilots ,while in India Turbaned pilots are very common.Why other countries even the USA don't allow sikhs to become pilots because we don't have numbers to influence governments of various countries


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 8, 2011)

Kds Ji...the Guru has given us the Best Touchstone to TEST everything by...Gurbani in SGGS. If a "rehitnamah/hukmnaman/bhai mani singh letter..even dsm granth" FAILS this Gurbani TEST..then its RUBBISH...........By all means RETAIN whatever PASSES the TEST...and theres a LOT for retention..of the 41 Vaars of Bhai gurdass Ji..ONLY 1 is Fake !! Rest have a few lines here and there that are fakes..so majority is OK. Same goes for Suraj parkash, Gur panth parkash e tc etc...


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## spnadmin (Jun 8, 2011)

Gyani ji

Are you saying that the Suraj Parkash passes the Gurbani test? I was not clear about your answer.



> Same goes for Suraj parkash, Gur panth parkash e tc etc...


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 8, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> Gyani ji
> 
> Are you saying that the Suraj Parkash passes the Gurbani test? I was not clear about your answer.



NO JI....what I am saying is THESE also should be SUBJECTED to the LITMUS TEST of GURBANI as well...and wherever found wanting....should be DISCARDED !! IN FACT...EACH and EVERY historical/theological source has to COMPLY with the SGGS to be accepted.....any "contradiction/failure to agree" with SGGS....is a clear sign its NOT right. 

BTW Suraj paraksh has a lot of utter rubbish...which is clearly rubbish even without being tested vis a vis Gurbani SGGS.


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## kds1980 (Jun 9, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> NO JI....what I am saying is THESE also should be SUBJECTED to the LITMUS TEST of GURBANI as well...and wherever found wanting....should be DISCARDED !! IN FACT...EACH and EVERY historical/theological source has to COMPLY with the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to be accepted.....any "contradiction/failure to agree" with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji....is a clear sign its NOT right.
> 
> BTW Suraj paraksh has a lot of utter rubbish...which is clearly rubbish even without being tested vis a vis Gurbani Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.



Gyani ji

the biggest problem is Guru granth sahib can be interpreted in thousand's of ways and people are interpreting it in the way of their thinking.so which intrepretation is right and which is wrong.We have seen some authors even questioning halal meat as they think it is divisive taboo and against the teaching of Guru granth sahib,I have seen kabir ji's quote of "bhavein lambe kesh" is used by some to justify that uncut hair is not required in Sikhism


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## Randip Singh (Jun 9, 2011)

People should watch this before carrying on further:

YouTube        - ‪The meaning of being a Sikh‬&rlm;

swordfight


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 9, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> Gyani ji
> 
> the biggest problem is Guru granth sahib can be interpreted in thousand's of ways and people are interpreting it in the way of their thinking.so which intrepretation is right and which is wrong.We have seen some authors even questioning halal meat as they think it is divisive taboo and against the teaching of Guru granth sahib,I have seen kabir ji's quote of "bhavein lambe kesh" is used by some to justify that uncut hair is not required in Sikhism



Kds Ji,
That is the position promoted by the various DERAS..and is one of the biggest insults to our GURU ( that He is Not clear and speaks with forked tongue...thats is what the take is..the most Famous (infamous in my book) remark is by a so called Gurmat Martand Brahmgyani and so on so on so on who has written that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains over 1500 MISTAKES !! How could such be  aGYANI of BRAHM..he is a BHARAM gyani spreader of bharams and vehams doubts.

The truth is as Prof sahib Singh ji singlehandedly shown that Gurbani has a STRICT Grammar, DISCIPLINE and has only ONE MEANING. The "several" mmeanings stance benefits the Bharamgyanis becasue IF they make a mistake/misinterpret...they can have an escape clause...oh..THIS can also mean this...and this..and this..and that is proof that GURBANI is NOT for the common man..its for the Bharamgyanis like me to tackle...thats why we stress that the AAM amdmee should leave Gurbani to us Bharamgyanis who do Naam japp and get this and that..blah blah blah...a most commonly heard argument form these Babas and derawallahs all the time...This is one reason why the Common Sikh is so afraid of approaching Gurbani...galat ho jaoo...PAAP ho jaoo..rehneh do..Gyani ji hain nah..paath karan nu..uhnah nu keh dehneh haan paath karo  ardass karo..blah blah blah...GURBANI is being made a "HIGHLY UNAPPROACHABLE OBJECT"....only the bhramgyanis cna approach the Baba Ji....to do paath you must be dressed like this..bath like that..sit like this..squat like that..wear this..not wear that..the this that....its a self fulfilling scenario...

As a Gurbani TEACHER i face such scenarios daily...and have a tough time UNLEARNING all such nonsense from their minds and hearts..and when after a yera or so of LEARNING what GURBANI really means..they can't thank me enough for showing them the LIGHT...the GYAAN that is our GURU.

IF a person "wants" to "interpret"..he can do it any which way and insist on it... BUT there is always a way to show the Real and TRUE interpretation and what the Guru says and means from CROSS REFERENCING all over Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Of course one can take a horse to water... BUT if it keeps saying NO I am NOT thirsty..or the water is really BEER..then there is only so much that can be done...

You have given the quote of Kabir Ji saying that it is USELESS to Keep long hair..or Go Bald. This is in reference to HINDU RELIGIOUS REQUIREMENTS of BOTH TYPES - Baldness where the hair roots are DESTROYED by rubbing ash and pulling out hair from the roots...and on the other extreme..the HAIR is not cut at all BUT rubbed with various substances like the SAP of the Pippal tree to make it grow long..and the long hair was kept MATTED, UNCLEAN, no combing etc.. allowed at all..just "LAMBEH KESH". Now Clearly these TWO OPPOSING symbolism of HAIR as a RELIGIOUS REQUIREMENT is transparent...and its EASY to see Bhagat Kabir Jis CONTEXT....and the CONTEXT or MORAL behind kabir Jis Mention of these two "hair styles" is that RELIGION CONCERNS THE SOUL/MANN/MIND...and so when we CROSS REFERENCE FURTHER in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji on this subject..we come across another CLEAR INDICATOR..Kabir Ji asks BLUNTLY.....Why "mundd" (bald the head) when the MANN has wild growing "hair" on it !!! Meaning the Mann has Hair of Bad habits bad actions etc etc growing wild....SO When all those "Pattits, clean shaven sikhs...etc etc rush headlong and quote the Lambeh Kesh quote in DEFENCE of their not keeping KESH as per Pahul Requirment..they have no answer when confronted with the SECOND KABIR QUOTE...mann munddiah nahin ??? IS the first quote really an "endorsement" by Kabir Ji that its Ok for a SIKH to cut his hair ?? Obviously its not meant that way at all and clearly the Kabir Tuk has a completely different context form the KESH requirement for a Sikh Amrtidharee...because while a "BALD" (Forceful intentional REMOVAL of all hair by the roots was a RELIGIOUS REQUIREMENT of one faction of HINDU RELIGIOUS ORDER..there is no such requirement for a PATIT/Clean-shaven Sikh ( that is his own personal choice !! ) so the TWO cannot be compared at the same level... hence this TUK is misused in the cleanshaven sikh defense context.  No way is this the FAULT of the GURBANI... Gurbani is crystal clear..its our own fault if we handle the CRYSTAL CLEAR GLASS with greasy oily hands..and then blame the crystal for not being clear..messed up and dirty....and along comes the so called BHARAMGYANI to admonish us..I TOLD YOU not to touch the crystal glass...see how dirty it looks..ONLY I am qualified to handle it..see how clean my hands are..leave it to me !!! and we are  back to square ONE !!..see no touch..when the greatest pleasure of our Guru is to see..touch..feel..enjoy....hold up to the light and wonder...we are no BULLS in a China shop..we are SIKHS of the GURU who left us a WRITTEN RECORD of His teachings to study and learn..and follow....something which no other prophet ever did....and we still behave like others who have only oral traditions/myths to depend on..or -Forty-third hand accounts passed on centuries after their prophets were dead...


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## kds1980 (Jun 9, 2011)

> Kds Ji,
> That is the position promoted by the various DERAS..and is one of the biggest insults to our GURU ( that He is Not clear and speaks with forked tongue...thats is what the take is..the most Famous (infamous in my book) remark is by a so called Gurmat Martand Brahmgyani and so on so on so on who has written that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains over 1500 MISTAKES !! How could such be aGYANI of BRAHM..he is a BHARAM gyani spreader of bharams and vehams doubts.
> 
> The truth is as Prof sahib Singh ji singlehandedly shown that Gurbani has a STRICT Grammar, DISCIPLINE and has only ONE MEANING. The "several" mmeanings stance benefits the Bharamgyanis becasue IF they make a mistake/misinterpret...they can have an escape clause...oh..THIS can also mean this...and this..and this..and that is proof that GURBANI is NOT for the common man..its for the Bharamgyanis like me to tackle...thats why we stress that the AAM amdmee should leave Gurbani to us Bharamgyanis who do Naam japp and get this and that..blah blah blah...a most commonly heard argument form these Babas and derawallahs all the time...This is one reason why the Common Sikh is so afraid of approaching Gurbani...galat ho jaoo...PAAP ho jaoo..rehneh do..Gyani ji hain nah..paath karan nu..uhnah nu keh dehneh haan paath karo ardass karo..blah blah blah...GURBANI is being made a "HIGHLY UNAPPROACHABLE OBJECT"....only the bhramgyanis cna approach the Baba Ji....to do paath you must be dressed like this..bath like that..sit like this..squat like that..wear this..not wear that..the this that....its a self fulfilling scenario...



The person who wrote about halal meat was not a follower of any dera but an Author of TLH from where the question shifted to Sikhchic.Yes AKJ,DDT  do interpret and misinterpret gurbani in their own way of thinking  but others are also doing.

Even on SPN so many people do arth of Gurbani which do not match with pro Sahib singh's interpretation and those who agree with support that arth and these people are no follower
of any Dera , so in other word Dera or no dera people are accepting only that arth which match their thinking


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## Bmandur (Jun 9, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> In 1984 riots these people who kept both options open did not come out to protect Gurdwara's ,they were sitting in their homes while Gurdwara's ,Guru granth sahib was being burnt.


 
This is why stay in your religon no matter who are Sikh, Hindu Muslim or Christn it's better to sail a boat with your own two hands.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 9, 2011)

Kds Ji.. by "Derawadee" i mean people who have derived a certain MINDSET based on certain methodology.. One Example.... Jathedar Gurbachan Singh Ji of Akal Takhat may NOT belong to "any" dera per se.. BUT his Sikhism is derived form certain source which is miles away from the one espoused say by the likes of Prof Sahib Singh.... So GS comes down heavily on Dasam Granth side (101% Guru Kirt..) He comes down heavily on placing a cremated ones ashes in Kiratpur (late Badal wife's ashes were immersed in this place by no other than JATHEDAR KESHGARH SAHIB when the SRM MARYADA he has sworn to uphold clearly declares OTHERWISE !! Jathedar Keshgarh likewise is NOT seemingly attached to any "DERA".... its something akin to the IT instruction..."PRESS ANY KEY"...but when a new comer looks at the KEYBOARD..he can search till hes blue in the face he will not find "any" key... he will find all sorts of keys, alphabets, numbers, wierd signs, Enter ALt and all those..BUT the "ANY" key ?? NO way. So a person can go blue in the face trying to figure out who is "DERA" and who is NOT...while the IT Savy person can see this from a MILE away...

The DERA mindset is rock solidly based on Vedanta (Akal Takhat Jathedar was so proud of his base that he called himslef VEDANTI..and NEVER Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiANTI..or GURBANIANTI...another one Puran Singh declared Sikhs are descendants of LUV-KUSH the legendary sons of a Ram that is no where to be found in History but in MYTH..it makes no difference to him that ONE of those LUV-KUSH twins was a Creature made out of TWIGS and GRASS and had life breathed in it by a Rishi..he still adamantly insists we are his aulaad ---descendants..THAT is the MINDSET a SIKH brought up on Prof Sahib Singhs Gurbani aarths would NEVER have !! Nirmalas, This PANTHI and that PANTHI.. Babas, UDASIS of Baba SRI CHAND, various DERAS that have NAMES and LIVING "Gurus/satgurs/bhagats/babas/mahapurash" running or sitting on their gadees/thrones are all microcosms of this MINDSET i call DERAWADEE !!

ALL "DERAWADEES" accept Dasam Granth 100000001% as GGS kirt..never mind all the pornography etc...so EVEN IF such a Sikh also accepts Prof Sahib Singhs aarths on some shabad..it makes no difference...

There are GORA "derawadees" in 3HO who haven't seen the front or back of any "named DERA" in Punjab.... but their Guru Harbhajan Yogi taught them that "mindset" and they find no difficulty in eugolising Baba Sri Chand while SIKHS would NEVER do that because it NEGATES Guru nanak jis choice of GURU ANGAD JI as His successor... to these Sri Chand is just an accidental section of Guru Nanak jis household who STRAYED from His PATH of GURMATT and started his own wayward pagdandee.. AWAY from GURMATT passed on to Guru Angad Ji... we are concerned with the "GURMATT PATH".. the derawadees are concerned with the BLOOD TIES between sri chand and his father ... and rather unfortunately it was these WAYWARD UDASIS who had sole control over Sikh Gurdwaras, dharamsalas, books, literature etc etc for more than a CENTURY while the Sikhs of GURU NANAK ji were busy fighting for their lives.. it was during this time that the "Udasi MINDSET" gained a stranglehold over Gurmatt "SOURCES".. BUT ALL these were not able to do that to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji/ and the Gurbani enshrined within...hence the TOUCHSTONE PRINCIPLE to determine what is MILK and what is WATER.


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## findingmyway (Jun 9, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> It is well known fact that Humans always choose easy way rather than difficult one



Incorrect. If that was the case then psychology wouldn't be such a vast discipline!! However, people aren't that simple to understand. If people always took the easy path how are there so many people following Sikhism inside and out? People don't change so the challenges were there in Guru's time and are there now but in different guises. Still many choose this path. If people always took the easy way out why would so many people choose work which is lower paid but does more good (I work in hospital rather than private practice despite earning less but get more job satisfaction). Why would so many people go to remote communities and do aid/charitable work for people who they have absolutely no relation to! So many more examples, yet people always focus on the negative. Perhaps you need to widen your social circle and activities to see good in people.



> .Look at world Sikhs have only secured rights in UK,canada and USA where they still have sizeable population.


Sikhs have secured rights in these countries as there have been Sikhs willing to make the effort for those rights. It is not just about numbers.



harry haller said:


> Does your way of Thinking is same as in 20s.The fact is Younger  generation have very little interest in 20s ,it is only in later life  they move toward their religion


Completely disagree with this. It is about mindset and sangat. I know many many people in their 20's who came toward Sikhi and spirituality and started keeping kesh even. I think it very much depends on upbringing, the company kept and personality. Go to any youth Gurmat camp and you will find they are full of interested 20 somethings interested to learn. As you say Harry ji, we need to make more of an effort to educate the youth.

Kds, I cannot and will not share your negativity. If Sikhi will die it will be through this downhearted, anti-Chardi Kala attitude. If we always look to others and think I will not because he isn't or why should I? then no-one will aspire to be a role model adn that sets up a vicious circle. Lets focus on ourselves and then others around us will also be inspired!


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## kds1980 (Jun 9, 2011)

> Incorrect. If that was the case then psychology wouldn't be such a vast discipline!! However, people aren't that simple to understand. If people always took the easy path how are there so many people following Sikhism inside and out?



In this world of 7 billion people do you find 1-2 million who may be really following sikhism  too many?do you know that there were some estimates that population of sikhs reached 8-10 million at the time of maharaja Ranjit Singh but after the end of Sikh kingdom population declined drastically ,even britishers wrote a letter that Sikhs are reverting back to Hinduism and may be this religion is going to Finish by the time of 1870 only 1-2 million sikhs left and then Singh Sabha movement again bought so many Sikhs



> If people always took the easy way out why would so many people choose work which is lower paid but does more good (I work in hospital rather than private practice despite earning less but get more job satisfaction).



Oh really How many of NRI sikhs are ready to move back in Punjab and render their service to their less fortunate Sikh brothers and sisters.99% of Sikh forums are dominant by NRI sikhs who talk about sikhism ,Punjab and everything but very few of them are ready to leave their well paid Jobs in developed countries for the sake of development of Punjab.The facilities provided by developed countries are too difficult to leave yet they want Sikhs of Punjab to stand up for Khalistan



> people go to remote communities and do aid/charitable work for people who they have absolutely no relation to! So many more examples, yet people always focus on the negative. Perhaps you need to widen your social circle and activities to see good in people.



Very few people go compared to requirement in poor area's .O.K just tell me why there is mad rush in Punjab for moving to developed countries ,is it not because they all want Lifestyle which you people who went earlier are getting compared to hard life of third world punjab.

Its easy to talk from a developed country what lifestyle I choose because the facilities you get their you know your future is secured ,whether you do private practice or Govt job but in a third world country like India Your thinking just change according to circumstances.


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## kds1980 (Jun 9, 2011)

here are some other examples of choosing easy life over difficult one

1) IITians despite studying on 2 million  rupee subsidy by Govt they prefer to work for high paying MNC's or 70-80% go abroad instead of rendering their service to Govt(Easy life)

2)Top Indian doctors as above prefer to render service to USA or Europe rather than serving rural India( easy life)

3) Indian civil servants either taking bribe or turning blind eye toward it (easy life )Don't want to get posted in remote area's 

4)Women prefering high earning men as husbands compared to low earning one ( Easy life)
The list goes on and on

Here is an example of person choosing difficult honest life as Forest officer

http://www.4to40.com/qa/index.asp?p=Sanjiv_Chaturvedi

Facing plenty of harrassment  from Govt.If mjority of people are like chaturvedi choosing difficult life over easy one then today India would have been one of the most advanced economy of world.


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## findingmyway (Jun 9, 2011)

Haha!! You've just proved my point! Some people take the easy road and others the hard road so your statement that humans always take the easy way out is incorrect. Such sweeping statements can never hold otherwise the world would fall apart. Things happen in cycles. There is improvement then things get worse and then improvement etc :interestedkudi:


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## findingmyway (Jun 9, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> Oh really How many of NRI sikhs are ready to move back in Punjab and render their service to their less fortunate Sikh brothers and sisters.99% of Sikh forums are dominant by NRI sikhs who talk about sikhism ,Punjab and everything but very few of them are ready to leave their well paid Jobs in developed countries for the sake of development of Punjab.The facilities provided by developed countries are too difficult to leave yet they want Sikhs of Punjab to stand up for Khalistan



I do not want Khalistan as I personally feel Sikhs should spread over the world. I have not worked in India as getting a visa has been difficult. I have worked in Africa and South America as well as working with those less fortunate in my own country. How am I less of a Sikh for not working in Panjab? How many Indians do anything for those less fortunate than themselves? Very few from what I see.



> Very few people go compared to requirement in poor area's .O.K just tell me why there is mad rush in Punjab for moving to developed countries ,is it not because they all want Lifestyle which you people who went earlier are getting compared to hard life of third world punjab.


What about those that stay?



> Its easy to talk from a developed country what lifestyle I choose because the facilities you get their you know your future is secured ,whether you do private practice or Govt job but in a third world country like India Your thinking just change according to circumstances.


Nothing is secure in the current economic climate and I am sick of hearing about how life abroad is easier. It is not true. The challenges are just different.

I refuse to continue this discussion otherwise you're going to drag me down into depression with you with the relentless negativity. I think you need to learn to laugh!! :rofl!!:We obviously see the world through very different eyes. We also have a different way of viewing our own actions and place in the world!


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## kds1980 (Jun 10, 2011)

findingmyway said:


> Haha!! You've just proved my point! Some people take the easy road and others the hard road so your statement that humans always take the easy way out is incorrect. Such sweeping statements can never hold otherwise the world would fall apart. Things happen in cycles. There is improvement then things get worse and then improvement etc :interestedkudi:



It looks to me either you don't understand what others are saying or you don't try to understand .How many people are their who are like chaturvedi 1-2 or may be 5 % ,they are in category of exception.The people who choose hard way are exception.When we talk about society we always take what majority do .When we say Punjab is in drugs it does not mean every Punjabi is taking drugs ,it means good percentage of youth are in drugs.When we say Indian politicians are corrupt then it means a very good percentage are corrupt of course there are politicians in India which are honest but they are in minority

What I am trying to say that majority always choose easy life ,of course there are exception who may prefer hard life


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## kds1980 (Jun 10, 2011)

> I do not want Khalistan as I personally feel Sikhs should spread over the world. I have not worked in India as getting a visa has been difficult. I have worked in Africa and South America as well as working with those less fortunate in my own country. How am I less of a Sikh for not working in Panjab? How many Indians do anything for those less fortunate than themselves? Very few from what I see.



The discussion is not you and me ,the discussion is not about who is more or less Sikh,One thing 
I never understand that why You always think in discussion that the other person is pointing towards you.When I say NRI I don't mean Findingmyway again I mean large percentage of Sikhs which are running various websites ,which appear on Forums ,which conduct various rallies ,etc. I mention this point because they always  are very vocal about 1984 ,Punjab problems ,Decline of Sikhi yet none or very few of them are ready to leave their lives of UK,canada and USA etc

As far Indians are concerned Yes they don't do much but on the other hand they are not vocal about these issues.I am sorry but it leaves very bad impression that we Sikhs can only talk but do nothing.



> What about those that stay?



Again what I say above they are exception and very few



> Nothing is secure in the current economic climate and I am sick of hearing about how life abroad is easier. It is not true. The challenges are just different.
> 
> I refuse to continue this discussion otherwise you're going to drag me down into depression with you with the relentless negativity. I think you need to learn to laugh!! We obviously see the world through very different eyes. We also have a different way of viewing our own actions and place in the world!



I don't know about Life in UK but I know one thing that life is always much better in developed countries thanin third world countries, Also it is the people of India that are queuing outside the embassies of UK,USA ,Canada  for Visa and not the People of UK standing Outside embassy of India for Visa of India


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## spnadmin (Jun 10, 2011)

kds1980 ji

If findingmyway had not pushed this discussion as far as she did and to the point it finally reached, my own impressions of your comments would stick. That you are someone who is deeply depressed and cannot see any light for any one anywhere in Punjab or India. Someone who has given up. Who sees no good in India. Who has no hope. Who sees every glass half-full. Who has no faith or trust in the ability of anyone but a few to pull out of depression. Who thinks NRI's are a pack of hypocrites. At this point my view of your comments has changed a lot. This is something to think about...the impression that we leave with words. We all need to think about that. What message do we send without realizing it is so. And that is why debate is so important, because it makes us clarify.


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## Gyani Jarnail Singh (Jun 10, 2011)

NRI did move back to India...the Gadarites who came back and fought were from abroad...becasue they realised that having a "Backward/enslaved" Motherland put them at a distinct disadvantage even when living in a free country like USA Canada etc...and the solution was in freeing their motherland..and they did it....

 Today India is a free independent Nation...IF the Sikhs want anything..they will have to VOTE WISELY....But in spite of billions of NRI Money pouring in to Punjab from abroad for the past 100 years or more, Punjabi Sikhs back home have been busy grabbing the lands and properties of thsoe who went abroad/spending the money sent in by those who went abroad like it grows on trees in USA/UK/Canada...buying flashy motorcycles, cars, building castles, having the best DRUGS, drinking like FISH..adopting Babas and deras as if they are the sole salvation, becoming lazy and worthless by importing cheap labour form UP Bihar etc ..and wasting millions to agents and fraudsters to go abroad !!

Whenever any NRI points out these shortcomings to the Punjabi Skhs..they go cry baby and start syaing..YOU COME HERE if you dare ( There is a very tiny MINORITY of Punjabi Sikh who has NOT YET paid an agent/paid for a passport etc to get a Visa to go abroad by HOOK or CROOK - BUT they wnat the NRIs to come back to the hell hole they created...Khalistan or no khalistan...when i LOOK at the THOUSANDS of these Punjabi Sikh ILLEGALS rotting in our Jails...working at MENIAL LABOUR ( but stop by for a while..and they will say..WE are Jatt PUTT SARDARAN DE..Punjab vich we have 100 killas of land. tractor ghar da..biharee naukar hai..pannee da glass nahin peeta aap..all done by Naukars....blah blah blah..and the logical querstion is .."WHY are you collecting Sh.it like an ordinary BHANGEE/Choohrra here in a foreign country ??)

PUNJABIS back home VOTE in ******* at each elction every 5 years without fail..and then cry for the NRIs to come back !!!..a peg of desi sharab sell their souls...and ask for NRIs to return (or exchange places with them ha ha)

Punjabis got to pull up their boot straps and get a handle on life..improve..and then maybe the NRI will come back to lend  hand...any NRI who returns now is like putting a gold chain on a majh...utterly useless..


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## Harry Haller (Jun 10, 2011)

Although this debate is going of on a slight tangent, I have to confess to some sympathy with Kdsji. From where I am sitting, the Punjab he talks of, is a Punjab that has the US as its idol. My parents have also told me that everything in India is very modern now, and you can eat at Mcdonalds and KFC. The Punjab I remember only had two types of cars on its roads, now there are hundreds. This begs the question, are we only good when there is no temptation around. As countries prosper, leisure time increases, and we are drawn towards the seedier side of life. Kdsji, I feel you want an India with no temptation, but for that to happen, we would have to have an India with no future either. You cannot deprive people of knoweldge, the people that now get the best drugs and the biggest cars and houses, they were always like that, they just never had the opportunity before. 

It is ironic that of all the sikhs that went out into the big wide world, many stood their ground, refused to cut hair, refused to drink, and built gurdwaras for the other sikhs to worship in. This was all done in a foreign environment with all the temptations that are present. Yet as soon as the same temptations arrive back home, the majority seem to be unable to display the same discipline and moderation that NRI sikhs showed.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 10, 2011)

To ,Spnadmin Ji ,Finding my Way Ji

I'm new I know ,but we are brothers and sisters we should append eachother with Ji. 
Do you not think calling someone "deeply depressed "would be personal and disparaging remark .

We should be better than that and discuss issues not each others personal traits or mindsets.

S S Medare


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## spnadmin (Jun 10, 2011)

Sinner Singh said:


> To ,Spnadmin Ji ,Finding my Way Ji
> 
> I'm new I know ,but we are brothers and sisters we should append eachother with Ji.
> Do you not think calling someone "deeply depressed "would be personal and disparaging remark .
> ...




Sinner Singh ji

I do many times subscribe to your sentiments. There are, however, times when issues cannot be discussed without attention paid to the negative mindsets that push the discussion of issues in this direction or that. Use of the word "depressed" in some instances is just as needed for moderation, as use of the terms "off topic" or "hostile" in other instances. 

And as admin I will call attention to attitudes that weaken a discussion, just as findingmyway ji may do as moderator. You may think these words are too strong, and we may see it otherwise. There are times when negativity just goes too far.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 10, 2011)

Dear Spndmin Ji
I'm very new and maybe over sensitive, having had a bad experience of forums, I upset a moderator by questioning him for taking sides. Not knowing the etiquette, I thought that admin would be impartial as they are the representative of the Site.(maybe mistakingly )I lack experience but my personal feeling was that I felt ok debating with members ,but when Admin posts something, it seemed as if the instituition itself has taken up the matter. I did not even realise moderators enter topics, (I lack experience ,so maybe commonplace but I just don;t know)but I still feel they should enter a topic as a distinct entity such as "Mr Aman Singh Ji" etc 
Some moderators ofcourse may have differing opinions and you kind of feel you are debating an anonymous entity rather than a comrade.

I like the fact your site appends members names with Ji so it seems absurd to be disparaging after calling someone Ji.

It is wise for me to weed out my own flaws and let others weed theirs.So with that thought ,please forgive me, if I spoke out of place, 
Finding my way Ji and Spnadmin Ji you are in all ways better than me and I value your comments even if I don't understand the underlying sentiments.

A quote in gratitude: 

"Life has the name of life, but in reality it is death."


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## spnadmin (Jun 10, 2011)

Sinner Singh ji

Don't spend time and emotion becoming overwrought. The moderators here do have the liberty of expressing a point of view. We tried the "impartiality" approach a while ago and it did not work. If someone posted in favor of X and we did not intervene, there would be dozens of complaints a day. If someone posted against X, the same thing. In other words.... we were always wrong and accused of taking sides. It works out better if we allow a multitude to post but make sure that no one individual can paralyze a discussion with personal prejudices.

SPN's impartiality comes into play because we permit many points of view to be posted. However, that too has to be monitored so that threads do not die under the weight of member and for that matter leader emotionality. So I will keep your thinking in mind.


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## Scarlet Pimpernel (Jun 10, 2011)

Spnadmin Ji

If fear you are deeply depressed and cannot see the light ,you must stop seeing the glass half empty.


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## kds1980 (Jun 10, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> kds1980 ji
> 
> If findingmyway had not pushed this discussion as far as she did and to the point it finally reached, my own impressions of your comments would stick. That you are someone who is deeply depressed and cannot see any light for any one anywhere in Punjab or India. Someone who has given up. Who sees no good in India. Who has no hope. Who sees every glass half-full. Who has no faith or trust in the ability of anyone but a few to pull out of depression. Who thinks NRI's are a pack of hypocrites. At this point my view of your comments has changed a lot. This is something to think about...the impression that we leave with words. We all need to think about that. What message do we send without realizing it is so. And that is why debate is so important, because it makes us clarify.



Thanks for your kind words.I too can say many things why almost all the people
who contribuited on SPN from 2004 to 2008  and played such a big role in making this site a success left  it but I will not .Perhaps they too were depressed


Anyway could you please point out when I say anything against India or anyone having no future in India.Indian economy is booming and many parts of India has great future but not the Punjab.It is now a well known fact that Sikhism is not having good time in India anyway could you please clarify about my being depressed comments ,is that related to my personal life or is it towards community?

As far NRI's are concerned ,yes I do believe they have double standard it is not because they are living outside,it is because they make most noise about 
1984 justice,Punjab going downhill ,sikhism going downhill etc but yet they are not ready to make sacrifice out from their personal life and come to India to something good for panth.And please don't think I am targeting NRI's of SPN  I am saying this to all who make blogs,websites and say lot of anti India ,anti Hindu words but don't do anything at ground level.


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## kds1980 (Jun 10, 2011)

Gyani Jarnail Singh said:


> NRI did move back to India...the Gadarites who came back and fought were from abroad...becasue they realised that having a "Backward/enslaved" Motherland put them at a distinct disadvantage even when living in a free country like USA Canada etc...and the solution was in freeing their motherland..and they did it....
> 
> Today India is a free independent Nation...IF the Sikhs want anything..they will have to VOTE WISELY....But in spite of billions of NRI Money pouring in to Punjab from abroad for the past 100 years or more, Punjabi Sikhs back home have been busy grabbing the lands and properties of thsoe who went abroad/spending the money sent in by those who went abroad like it grows on trees in USA/UK/Canada...buying flashy motorcycles, cars, building castles, having the best DRUGS, drinking like FISH..adopting Babas and deras as if they are the sole salvation, becoming lazy and worthless by importing cheap labour form UP Bihar etc ..and wasting millions to agents and fraudsters to go abroad !!
> 
> ...



Gyani ji

You have pointed out very well.NRI's are ready to share their money but not the skills which they learned abroad .It is obvious if NRI's are sending the free money to their relatives then it is going to have more negative impact than the positive one ,it will create mindset that money is easy  in abroad.

You are talking about wisdom but from where this wisdom is going to come from ? from the third grade Govt Schools that too of Punjab ,where you have poor quality of low paid teachers are working 

Also if all good hardworking people will left Punjab for greener pastures outside India then what type of quality will be left in Punjab? It is obvious that poor quality of people will be left back home


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## findingmyway (Jun 10, 2011)

The reference to depression was not a personal insult but related to the way all posts seem to be all doom and gloom making it very difficult to maintain the Sikh chardi kala spirit. I was taught Sikhi teaches one to be proactive and make the world a better place (rather than always playing the blame game as an excuse not to change yourself) like some of these people:

Our own Mai ji (NRI) who stayed in 1984 to fight for justice and lost so much.

http://www.sgss.org/information/TAR_2008_2009.pdf  Go to page 10.
The health camps funded AND staffed by this UK Gurdwara are still ongoing and according to a recent report I read are occuring monthly. Also note the amount of education this Gurdwara has for the youth. I do not know of any Indian Gurdwara that makes so much effort for the local youth. A place can only be helped if it also helps itself.

http://www.unitedsikhs.org/usouta/
Funded AND staffed by NRI's and non-Indian foreigners.

http://www.nishkamcanada.org/aboutus.asp
Funding, organisation and support provided by NRI's. Provides jobs to local people.

http://www.unitedsikhs.org/punjab/panjab_flood_2010.php
Funding, support, organisation and practical on the ground help provided by NRI's.

http://www.seva.org/site/PageServer?pagename=programs_sight
Funded and staffed by NRI's.

http://www.unitedsikhs.org/starae/
Funded by NRI's-jobs provided by locals so promote sustainability. Training given to staff by NRI's. Organised by NRI's. All materials required provided by NRI's.

http://www.gsghks.org.uk/gallmain1.htm
This Gurdwara has organised several educational events in India. Funded, staffed and organised by NRI's.

http://www.seva.org/site/PageServer?pagename=programs_sight
Funding AND staffed by NRI's.

http://www.worldvolunteerweb.org/news-views/news/doc/voluntary-services-overseas.html
Funded and staffed by NRI's and non-Indian foreigners.

http://www.unitedsikhs.org/caof/
Funded and academic support given by NRI's.

http://www.globalchoices.co.uk/work-programme-271.php
Funded AND staffed by NRI's and non-Indian Britishers.


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## kds1980 (Jun 10, 2011)

Thanks for providing those links .I know NRI Sikhs are very generous in financial matters and I never said that they don't provide Financial support or don't do any good.

It take One Indian lawyer H.S phoolka who had chance to move to USA but preferred to stay in India to Fight for justice though I heard that 84 riots legal expenses were paid from USA

Anyway No one knows whether the money NRI or any other send to India  reach to needy or not,infact i heard truck load of amount was collected in name of 84 riots victims but hardly any penny reached to them.


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## spnadmin (Jun 10, 2011)

kds1980 said:


> .I too can say many things why almost all the people
> who contribuited on SPN from 2004 to 2008  and played such a big role in making this site a success left  it but I will not .



Many of them were or are NRI's.


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## kds1980 (Jun 10, 2011)

spnadmin said:


> Many of them were or are NRI's.




over 90% of participation on sikh forums ,sikh websites are NRI's.What 's your point? I am not against any NRI neither I hate them .My only objection is the way they speak about Sikh issue's,or Punjab issue's  ,in that way they are not sacrifice any of their jobs or facilites of developed countries.


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## spnadmin (Jun 10, 2011)

kds1980 ji

I am torn between wondering if the discussion of NRI's is going off topic or if it is going off on a tangent.

The thread title is "4 Classes of Sikhs and the *Destruction of Sikhism*." The starter article has been discussed to a point. It is also an older article that was brought back to life by a newer member. After that comes a discussion of Hindu encroachment on Sikh identity. Following is a longer discussion about NRI's, much of it critical of NRI's. When any NRI points out that these criticisms are unwarranted...the beat goes on...there is no end to rebuke after rebuke of them. It is not enough to say that all must have a  chance "to express himself." All that will lead to and has led to is more criticism of NRI's, Therefore, NRI association with the Destruction of Sikhism grows stronger, whether you mean it or not. Moreover, how many times must an NRI search for a response to each kick before giving up in disgust and leaving the thread? 

Most readers do not even go back to the start of the thread. They start reading the most recent posts. 

And that is what I meant when i said that we all have to think of the impression our words create when someone objects that a group they belong to has been singled out for excessive criticism, and criticism that is not rooted in the facts. It really is time to take ownership of the gut reflex to always have to have a comeback no matter what.  Is it that important to have the last word? Is it that important to wear down the opposition?


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## Admin (Jun 10, 2011)

Gurfateh Sinner Singh Ji and fellow SPN'ers!

Moderation is a double edged sword and it is very easy to feel offended just because an admin or a moderator intervened to confront you or any one else, to put the topic back on track. At SPN, an admin or a moderator is a member first and then rest comes into picture. 

SPN is a platform where everyone gets an opportunity to share his own perspective without being judged or prejudiced. But at the same time nobody is allowed to assert or push his/her own thought process (in some cases, agendas) over other members. We respect what all members for what they have to say on a topic but at the same time nobody would be allowed to undermine anybody under any circumstances. If you have an argument then other members can also have an argument pointing to entirely different directions. We should be matured enough to accept the differences in opinions and learn from each others perspectives. Pushing around only your own arguments and ridiculing others is not acceptable. This applies to any member or an admin or a moderator.

So, you should not feel offended or being cornered just because an admin or a moderator confronted you.

Cheers!



			
				kds1980 said:
			
		

> Thanks for your kind words. I too can say many things why almost all the people who contributed on SPN from 2004 to 2008  and played such a big role in  making this site a success left  it but I will not .Perhaps they too  were depressed.



Kanwardeep ji, 

Change is the only thing in this world which is constant... This is why we at SPN always greet a new member by suggesting him to "...enjoy your stay over here..."  At the same time SPN is ever so grateful to the people who have/had patronized and contributed towards building a strong foundations for SPN. But as time passes, priorities of the people doing their worldly duties change. Most people choose to move on gracefully. With Waheguru's Grace, from where i stand, i see more people coming back to SPN rather than leaving. Members, who generally leave are the ones, who have usually failed in  pushing their own agendas on SPN and hence the depression! 

As far as leaving of past/present/future Mentors/Moderators is concerned. Being a moderator or a mentor on SPN is _*a privilege granted*_ to members based on their performance and behavior with fellow members on the network and this *does not *constitute *any kind of absolute right* to these positions. All Mods/Mentors are candidates to retire by rotation _under present circumstances and performance_, primarily to pave way for injecting fresh blood or also provide a break to existing leaders to rejuvenate themselves in some cases. 

It is also very important to understand, that nobody can keep everybody happy or otherwise our Gurus would have never faced that fierce opposition on every step, even from their blood relations. It is not about keeping everybody happy and compromise on our ideals. 

Another important thing is to move forward and don't get bogged down by the bottlenecks that besiege our path. This is what we can learn from the lives of our Gurus. And the moment we get bogged down, BANG, you are gone! 

In a nutshell, please allow us to perform our duties without being over judgemental as we have to cater to almost everyone on this network and have fun & above all enjoy your stay over here!

*This thread is now officially closed and if anybody has something worthwhile to add to the discussion, then simply drop me a Private Message.
*
Gurfateh!


Aman Singh


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